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I ' » < «•* - ^ /^ ■!■[■ 'n 9 BW}.:, "^" i [ ^ ] THE EXAMINATION O F Dodlor BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, &c. ). V ■r ■* ■•.* Q/T T THAT is your name, and place yl/ of abode? ^ ^ A. Franklin, of Philadelphia. Qj^ Do the Americans pay any confi- derable taxes among themfelves ? A. Certainly many, and very heavy taxes. Q^ What are the prefent taxes in Penn- fylvania, laid by the laws of the colony ? A. There are taxes on all eftates real and pprfonal, a poll tax, a tax on all of- fices, profellions, trades and bufmefles, according to their profits -, an excife on all wine, rum, and other fpirits; and a duty of Ten Pounds per head on all Ne- groes imported, with fome other duties. Qj_ For what purpofes are thofe taxes laid ? B A. For "' I [ 2 ] A. For the fiipport of the civil and miUtary eftablifhments of the country, and to dilbharge the heavy debt contracted in the lafl war. Q^ How long are thofe taxes to con- tinue ? A. Thofe for difcharging the debt are to continue till 1772, and longer, if the debt fhould not be then all difcharged. The others muft always continue. Q^ Was it not expelled that the debt would have been fooner difcharged ? A. It was, when the peace was made with France and Spain — But a frefli war breaking out with the Indians, a frefh load of debt was incurred, and the taxes, of courfe, continued longer by a new law. Q^ Are not all the people very able to pay thofe taxes ? A. No. The frontier counties, all along the continent, having been frequently ra- vaged by the enemy, and greatly impo- verifhed, are able to pay very little tax. And therefore, in conlideration of their diftrefles, our late tax laws do exprefsly favour thofe counties, exTufing the fuf- ferers j and I fuppofe the fame is done in other governments. Q^ Are not you concerned -n the ma- nagement of the Pofl-Office in America ? A. Yes. I am Deputy Pofl-Mafter General of North-i\.merica. Q^Don't >»'■' [ 3 ] i (y Don't you think the diftribution of ftamps, by poll, to all the inhabitants, very pradicable, if there was no oppo- fition ? A. The pofts only go along the lea- coafts i they do not, except in a few in- ftances, go back into the country ; and if they did, fending for flamps by poft would ' occafion an expence of portage, amount- ing, in many cafes, to much more than that of the (lamps themfelves. Q^ Are you acquainted with New- foundland ? A. I never was there. Q^ Do you know whether there are any poft-roads on that ifland ? A. I have heard that there are no roads at all ; but that the communication be- tween one fettlement and another is by fea only. Q^ Can you difperfe the ftamps by poft in Canada? A. There is only a poft between Mont- *) real and Quebec. The inhabitants live fo fcattered and remote from each other, in that vaft country, that pofts cannot be fupported among them, and therefore they cannot get ftamps per poft. The Englifh Colonies too, along the frontiers, are very thinly fettled. B 2 Q^ From [ 4 ] Q^ From the thinnefs of the back fet- tlements, would not the ftamp-acfl be ex- tremely inconvenient to the inhabitants, if executed ? A. To be fure it would ; as many of the inhabitants could not get ftamps when they had occafion for them, without tak- ing long journeys, and fpending perhaps Three or Four Pounds, that the Crown might get Sixpence. Q^ Are not the Colonies, from their circumflances, very able to pay the ftamp duty. A. In my opinion, there is not gold and filver enough in the Colonies to pay the ftamp duty for one year. O. Don't you know that the money arifing from the ftamps was all to be laid out in America ? A. I know it is appropriated by the aft to the American fervice -, but it will be fpent in the conquered Colonies, where the foldiers are, not in the Colonies that pay it. Q^ Is there not a balance of trade due from the Colonies where the troops are pofted, that will bring back the money to the old colonies ? A. I think not. I believe very little would come back. I know of no trade likely to bring it back. I think it would come from the Colonies where it was fpent ■'*, ^ t s ] fpent diredlly to England; for I have al- ways obferved, that in every Colony the more plenty the means of remittance to England, the more goods are fent for, and the more trade with England carried on. Q^ What number of white inhabitants do you think there are in Pcnnfylvania ? A. I fuppofe there may be about 160,000. Q^ What number of them are Quakers ? A. Perhaps a third. Q. What number of Germans? A. Perhaps another third ; but I can- not fpeak with certainty. Q^ Have any number of the Germans feen fervice, as foldiers, in Europe ? Ac Yes, — many of them, both in Eu- rope and America. Q. Are they as much diflatisfied with the ftamp-duty as the English ? A. Yes, and more; and with reafon, as their llamps are, in many cafes, to be double. Q^ How many white men do you fup- pofe there are in North-America ? A. About 300,000, from fixteen to fixty years of age. Q^ What may be the amount of one year's imports into Pcnnfylvania from Britain ? A. I have been informed that our mer- chants .?1^' -N A. [ 6 3 chants compute the imports from Britain to be above 500,000 Pounds. Q^ What may be the amount of the produce of your province exported to Bri- tain ? A. It muft be fmall, as we produce little that is wanted in Britain. I fuppofe it cannot exceed 40,000 Pounds. Q. How then do you pay the balance ? ' A. The balance is paid by our produce carried to the Weft-Indies, and fold in our own iflands, or to the French, Spa- niards, D.mes and Dutch ; by the fame carried to other colonies in North-Ame- rica, as to New-England, Nova-Scotia, Newfoundland, Ca-olina and Georgia; by the fame carried to different parts of Europe, as Spain, Portugal and Italy. In all which places we receive either money, l^ills of Exchange, or commodities that fuit for remittance to Britain -, which, to- gether with all the profits on the induftry of our merchants and mariners, arifing in thofe circuitous voyages, and the freights made by their Ihips, center finally in Bri- tain to difcharge the balance, and pay for Britifli manfadtures continually ufed in the province, or fold to foreigners by our traders. Q^ Have you heard of any difliculties lately laid on the Spanifli trade ? A. Yes, [ 7 ] A. Yes, I have heard that it has been grtatly obftrudtcd by fome new regula- tions, and by the Englifh men of war and cutters ftationed ail along the coaft hi America. Q^ Do you think it right that America fliould be protedted by this country, and pay no part of the expence ? A. That is not the cafe. The Colo- nies raifed, cloathed and payed, during the laft war, near 25000 men, and fpent many millions. Q. Were you not reimburfed by parlia- ment ? A. We were only reimburfed what, in your opinion, we had advanced beyond our proportion, or beyond what might reafonably be expeded from us j and it was a very imall part of what we fpent. Pennfylvania, in particular, dilburfed a- bout 500,000 Pounds, and the reimburfe- ments, in the whole, did not exceed 60,000 Pounds. Q^ You have faid that you pay heavy taxes in Pennfylvania ; what do they a- mount to in the Pound ? A. The tax on all eftates, real and per- fonal, is Eighteen Pence in the Pound, fully rated ; and the tax on th ^ profits of trades and profellions, with other taxes, do, I fuppofe, make full Half a Crown in the Pound, m ; ■ 1 [ 8 ] Q. Do you know any thing of the rate of exchange in Pennfylvania, and whether it has fallen lately ? A. It is commonly from 170 to 175. I have heard that it has fallen lately from 175 to 162 and a half, owing, I fuppofe, to their lefTening their orders for goods ; and when their debts to this country are paid, I think the exchange will probably be at par. • Q^ Do not you think the people of America would fubmit to pay the ilamp- duty, if it was moderated ? A. No, never, unlefs compelled by force of arms. Q^ Are not the taxes in Pennfylvania laid on unequally, in order to burthen the Englifh trade, particularly the tax on profeflions and bufmefs ? A. It is not more burthenfome in pro- portion than the tax on lands. It is in- tended, and fuppofed to take an equal pro- portion of profits. Q. How is the affembly compofed ? Of what kinds of people are the members, landholders or traders ? A. It is compofed of landholders, mer- chants and artificers. Q^ Are not the majority landholders ? A. I believe they are. Q. Do not they, as much as poflible, fliift t 5 3 fhift the tax ofFfrom the land, to eafe that, and lay the burthen heavier on trade ? A. I have never underftood it fo. I never heard fuch a thing fuggefted. And indeed an attempt of that kind could an- fwer no purpofe. The merchant or tra- der is always ikilled in figures, and ready with his pen and ink. If unequal bur- thens are laid on his trade, he puts an ad- ditional price on his goods ; and the con- fumers, who are chiefly landholders, fi- nally pay the greateft part, if not the whole. Q^ What was the temper of America towards Great-Britain before the year 1763? A. The befl in the world. They fub- mitted willingly to the government of the Crown, and paid, in all their courts, obedience to adts of parliament. Nume- rous as the people are in the feveral old provinces, they cofl you nothing in forts, citadels, garrifons or armies, to keep them in fubjeftion. They were governed by this country at the expence only of a little pen, ink and paper. They were led by a thread. They had not only a refpedt, but an affection, for Great- Britain, for its laws, its cuftoms and manners, and even a fondnefs for its fafliicns, ihat greatly incrcafed the commerce, N:.tives C of J.. ■4 •i [ 10 ] of Britain were always treated with parti- cular regard -, to be an Old England-man was, of itfelf, a charadter of fome refpect, and gave a kind of rank among us. Q^ And what is their temper now. A. O, very much altered. Q;^ Did you ever hear the authority of parliament to make laws for America queftioned till lately ? A. The authority of parliament was al- lowed to be vaHd in all laws, except fuch as fliould lay internal taxes. It was never difputed in laying duties to regulate com- merce. Q^ In what proportion hath population increafed in America ? A. I think the inhabitants of all the provinces together, tul^en at a medium, double in about 25 years. But their de- mand for Britifli manufadures increafes much fafter, as the confumption is not merely in proportion to their numbers, but grows with the growing abilities of the fame numbers to pay for them. In 1723, the whole importation from Bri- tain to Pennfylvania, was but about 15,000 Pounds Sterling; it is now near Haifa Million. Q^ In what light did the people of America ufe to confidcr the parliament of Great-Britain? A. They ^ p a <; [ " ] A. They confidered the parliament as the great bulwark and fecurity of their liberties and privileges, and always fpoke of it with the utmoft refpedt and venera- tion. Arbitrary miriifters, they thought, might poflibly, at times, attempt to op- prefs them; but they relied on it, thac the parliament, on application, would al- ^ ' ways give redrefs. They remembered, with gratitude, a ftrong inftance of this, when a bill was brought into parliament, with a claufe, to make royal inftrudions laws in the Colonies, which the Houfc of Commons would not pafs, and it was thrown out. Q^ And have they not flill the fame relpedt for parliament ? A. No ; it is greatly lefTened. Q^ To what caufes is that owing ? A. To a concurrence of caufes ; the reftraints lately laid on their trade, by which the bringing of foreign gold and fil- ver into the Colonies was orevented : the prohioition of making paper money among themfelves -, and then demanding a n»'w and heavy tax by ftarnps ; talvLig awav, at the fame time, trials by Juries, and re- fufnig to receive and hear their humble petitions. (^ Don't you think they would fubmit to the ftamp-ad, if it was modiiied, the C 2 obnoxious I [ '2] obnoxious parts taken out, and the duty reduced to iome particulars, of fmall mo-» ment ? A. No ; they will never fubmit to it. Q^ What do you think is the reafon that the people of America increafe faflej: than in England ? A. Becaufe they nnarry younger, and more generally. Q^ Why fo ? A. Becaufe any young couple that are induftrious, may eafily obtain land of their own, on which they can raife a family. Q;_ Are not the lower rank of people more at their eafe in America than in Eng^ land ? A. They may be fo, if they are fober and diligent, as they are better paid for their labour. Q. What is your opinion of a future tax, impofed on the fame principle with that of the flamp-ad; how WQuld the Americans receive it ? A. Juft as they do this. They would not pay it. Q. Have not you heard of the refolu- tions of this Houfe, and of the Houfe of Lords, afferting the right of parliament relating to America, including a power to tax the people there ? A. Yes, I have heard of fuch refolu- tions. q^^What f [13] Q^ What will be the opinion of the Americans on thofe refolutions ? A. They will think them unconftitu- tional and unjuft. Q^ Was it an opinion in America be- fore 1763, that the parliament had no right to lay taxes and duties there ? A. I never heard any objedion to the right of laying duties to regulate com- merce ; but a right to lay internal taxes was never fuppofed to be in parliament, as we are not reprefented there. Q^ On what do you found your opinion, that the people in America made any fuch diftinftion ? A. I know that whenever the fubjed: has occurred in converfation where I have been prefent, it has appeared to be the opinion of every one, that we could not be taxed in a parliament where we were not reprefented. But the payment of du- ties laid by adt of parliament, as regula- tions of commerce was never difputed. Q^ But can you name any adl of alTem- bly, or public ad: of any of your govern- ments, that made fuch diftindlion ? A. I do not know that there was any ; I think there was never an occafion to make any fuch adl, till now that you have attempted to tax us ; that has occafioned refolutions of affembly, declaring the dif- tinftion. ■\^- i ^ '■\ \'\ tindion, in which I think every aflembly on the continent, and every member in every alTembly, have been unanimous. Q^ What then could occafion conver- fations on that fubjed before that time. A. There w^as in 1754 a propofition made (I think it came from hence) that in cafe of a vv^ar, which was then appre- hended, the governors of the Colonies fliould meet, and order the levying of troops, building of forts, and taking every other neceffary meafure for the general defence ; and Ihould draw on the treafury here for the fums expended, which were afterwards to be raifed in the Colonies by a general tax, to be laid on them by aft of parliament. This occafioned a good deal of converfation on the fubjed:, and the general opinion was, that the parlia- ment neither would nor could lay any tax on us, till we were duly reprefentcd in parliament, becaufe it was not juft, nor agreeable to the nature of an Englifli con- ftitution. Q^ Don't you know there was a time in I^ew-York, when it was under con- fideration to make an application to par- liament to lay taxes on that Colony, upon a deficiency arifmg from the affembly's refufing or neglefting to raife the necef- fary fupplies for the fupport of the civil government ? A.i [ 15 ] A. I never heard of it. Q^ There was fuch an application un- der confideration in Nc //-York; and do you apprehend they could fuppofe the right of parliament to lay a tax in America was only local, and confined to the cafe of a deficiency in a particular Colony, by a refufal of its affembly to raife the necef- fary fupplies ? A. They could not fuppofe fuch a cafe, as that the affembly would not raife the neceffary fupplies to fupport its own go- vernment. An affembly that would re- fufe it muft want common fenfe, which cannot be fuppofed* I think there was never any fuch cafe at New- York, and that it muft be a mifreprefentation, or the fa(3: muft be mifunderftood. I know there have been fome attempts, by minifterial inftrudtions from hence, to oblige the af- femblies to fettle permanent falaries on governors, which they wifely refufed to do; but I believe no affembly of New- York, or any other Colony, ever refufed duly to fupport government by proper al- lowances, from time to time, to public officers. Q^ But in cafe a governor, aN i i) y Of It, o a [23] A. A total lofs of the refped and af- fection the people of America bear to this country, and of all the commerce that depends on that refpedt and affedlion. C^ How can the commerce be aiFefted ? A. You will find, that if the adl is not repealed, they will take very little of your manufactures in a fhort time. Q^ Is it in their power to do without them ? A. I think they may very well do without them. Q^ Is it their intereft not to take them ? A. The goods they take from Britain are either neceflaries, mere conveniences, or fuperfluities. The firft, as cloth, 6cc. with a little induftry they can make at home ; the fecond they can do without, till they are able to provide therti among themfelves i and the laft, which are much the greateft part., they will ftrike off im- mediately. They are mere articles of fafhion, purchafed and confumed, becaufe the fafhion in a rcfpedted country, but will now be detefled and rejected. The people have already ilruck off, by general agreement, the ufe of all goods fafhiona- ble in mournings, and many thoufand pounds worth are fent back as unfaleable. Q^ Is it their intereft to make cloth at home ? A. I P.!" 'I f [ 24 J A.I think they may at prefent get it cheaper from Britain, I mean of the fame £nenefs and neatnefs of workmanfhip; but when one confiders other circumi- ftances, the reftraints on their trade, and the difficulty of making remittances, it is their intereil to make every thing. Q^ Suppofe an ad: of internal regula- tions connecfted with a tax, how would they receive it ? A. I think it would be objed:ed to. Q^ Then no regulation with a tax Would be fubmitted to ? A. Their opinion is, that when aids to the Crown are wanted, they are to be afked of the feveral aflembli'^s, according to the old eftablifhed ufage, who will, as they always have done, grant them freely. And that their money ought not to be given away, without their confent, by perfons at a diftance, unacquainted with their circumflances and abilities. The granting aids to the Crown,, is the only means they have of recommending them- felves to their fovereign, and they think it extremely hard and unjult, that a body of men, in which they have no reprefenta- tives, fliould make a merit to itfelf of giv- ing and granting what is not its own, but theirs, and deprive them of a right they cileem of the utmoll value and import- ance. „ T u [ 25 ] fttice, as it is the fecurity of all their other rights. Q^ But is not the pofl-office, which they have long received, a tax as well as a regulation ? A. No; the money pa'd for the port- age of a letter is not of the nature of a tax ; it is merely a quantum meruit for a fervice done ; no perfon is compellable to pay the money, if he does not chufe to receive the fervice. A man may fHll, as before the adt, fend his letter by a fervant, a fpecial melTenger, or a friend, if he thinks it cheaper and fafer. Q^ But do they not confider the regu- 'lations of the pofl-office, by the ad of laft year as a tax ? A. By the regulations of lafl year the rate of poflage was generally abated near thirty per cent, through all America ; they certainly cannot confider fuch abate- ment as a tax. Q^ If an excife was laid by parliament, which they might likewife avoid paying--, by not confuming the articles cxciicd, would they then not obje(ft to it ? A. They would certainly object to it, as an excife is unconnedled with any fer- vice done, and is merely an aid which they think ought to be afked of them, and granted by them, if tliey are to pay it, and can be granted for them by no E others H r Is .1 r' nm ■ i; [ 26] others whatlbsver, whom they have not impowered for that purpofe. Q^ You fay they do not objedt to the right of parliament, in laying duties on goods to be paid on their importation; now, is there any kind of difference be- tween a duty on the importation of goods, and an excife on their confumption ? A. Yes; a very material one; an ex- cife, for the reafons I have juft mentioned, they think you can have no right to lay within their country. But the fea is yours ; you maintain, by your fleets, the fafety of navigation in it, and keep it clear of pirates ; you may have therefore a na- tural and equitable right to fome toll or duty on merchandizes carried through that part of your dominions, towards defray- ing the expence you are at in fliips to maintain the fafety of that carriage. Q^ Does this reafoning hold in the cafe of a duty laid on the produce of their lands exported ? And would they not then objedt to fuch a duty ? A. If it tended to make the produce fo much dearer abroad as to lefl'en the de- mand for it, to be fure they would obje(5t to fuch a duty ; not to your right of lay- ing it, but they would complain of it as a burthen, and petition you to lighten it. Q^ Is not the duty puid on the tobacco exported a duty of that kind ? A. That, i ,. «• [ 27 ] A. That, I think, is only on tobacco carried coaflwife from one Colony to ano- ther, and appropriated as a fund for fup- porting the college at Williamfburgh, in Virginia. Q:^ Have not the afTemblies in the Weft^Indies the fame natural rights with thofe in North- America ? A. Undoubtedly. Q;^ And is there not a tax laid there on their fugars exported ? A. I am not much acquainted with the Weft-Indies, but the duty of four and a half per cent, on fugars exported, was, I believe, granted by their own afTemblies. Q^ How much is the poll-tax in your province laid on unmarried men ? A. It is, I think Fifteen Shillings, to be paid by every fmgle freeman, upwards of twenty-one years old. Q. What is the annual amount of all the taxes in Pennfylvania ? A. I fuppofe about 20,000 Pounds fterling. Q^ Suppoiing the ftamp-ad continued, and enforced, do you imagine that ill-hu- mour will induce the Americans to give as much for worfe manufa<5tures of their own, and ufe them, preferably to better of ours ? A. Yes, I think fo. People will pay as freely to gratify one paifion as another, their refentment as their pride. E 2 Q^WouU :l 1 *' •I ' * % I: li '4 [ 28 } Q;_ Would the people at Boflon dif- continue their trade ? A. The merchants are a very fmall number, compared with the body of the people, and muft difcontinue their trade, if nobody will buy their goods. Q^ What are the body of the people in the Colonies ? A. They are farmers, hufbandmen or planters. Q^ Would they fufter the produce of their lands to rot ? A. No ; but they would not raife fo much. They would manufacture more, and plough lefs. Q^ Would they live without the ad- ministration of juftice in civil matters, and fuffer all ':he inconveniencies of fuch a fituation for any confiderable time, rather than take the ftamps, fuppofing the ftamps were proteded by a fufficient force, Vvhere every one might have them ? A. I think the fuppofition impradlica- blc, that the flamps fhould be fo protected ^s that every one might have them. The ad: requires fub-diilributors to be ap- pointed in every county town, diftrid and village, and they would be neceflary. But the principal diflributors, who were to have had a confiderable profit on the whole, have not thought it worth vhile to con- tinue V i WtL'^^yiW : < [ 29 ] tiiiue In the office, and I think it impoffi- ble to find fub-diftributors fit to be trufted, who, for the trifling profit that muft come to their fhare, would incur the odium, and run the hazard that would attend it ; and if they could be found, I think it impracticable to proted; the ftamps in fo many diflant and remote places. Q^ But in places where they could be proted:ed, would not the people ufe them rather than remain in fuch a fituation, un- able to obtain any right, or recover, by law, any debt ? A. It is hard to fay what they would do. I can only judge what other people will think, and how they will ad:, by what I feel within myfelf. I have a great many debts due to me in America, and I had rather they ihould remain unreco- verable by any law, than fubmit to the itamp-ad. They will be debts of honour. It is my opinion the people will either continue in that fituation, or find fome way to extricate themfelves, perhaps by generally agreeing to proceed in the courts without fi:amps. Q^ What do you think a fufiicient mili- tary force to proted the diftributlon of the ftamps in every part of America ? A. 1. [30] A. A very great force ; I can't fay what, if the difpofition of America is for a gene- ral refinance. Q^ What is the number of men in America able to bear arms, or of difci- plined militia ? A. There arc, I fuppofe, at leafl— - [^ejiion objeSied to. He withdrew. Called in again.] Q. Is the American ftamp-a(ft an equal tax on that country ? A. I think not. Q. Whyfo? A. The greateft part of the money muft arife from law-fuits for the recovery of debts, and be paid by the lower fort of people, who were too poor eafily to pay their debts. It is therefore a heavy tax on the poor, and a tax upon them for be- ing poor. Q^ But will not this'lncreafe of expence be a means of lefTening the number of law-fuits ? A. I think not^ for as the cofts all fall upon the debtor, and are to be paid by him, they would be no difcouragement to the creditor to bring his adion. Q^ Would it not have the effed of ex- cellive ufury ? A. Yes, as an opprefTion of the debtor. Ci;^HO\V [ 3X 3 Q^ How many fhips are there ladea annually in North-America with flax- feed for Ireland ? A. I cannot fpeak to the number of fhips, but I know that in 1752* 10,000 hogfheads of flax-feed, each containing 7 bulhels, were exported from Philadelphia to Ireland. I fuppofe the quantity is greatly increafed fmce that time j and it is underftood that the exportation from New- York is equal to that from Phila- delphia. Q;_ What becomes of the flax that grows with that flax-feed ? A. They manufacture fome into coarfe, and fome into a middling kind of linen. Q^ Are there any flitting-mills in Ame- rica ? A. I think there are three, but I be- lieve only one at prefent employed. I fuppofe they will all be fet to work, if the interruption of the trade continues. Q^ Are there any fulling mills there ? A. A great many. Q^ Did you never hear that a great quantity of ftockings were contraded for, for the army, during the war, and manu- fadtured in Philadelphia ? A. I have heard fo. Q^ If thefl:amp-ad: fliould be repealed, would not the Americans think they could ^ 'y V: L 32 ] dould oblige the parliament to repeal every external tax-law now in force ? A. It is hard to anfwer queftions of* tvhat people at fuch a diflance will think. Q^ But what do you imagine they will think were the motives of repealing the ad? A. I fuppofe they will think that it was repealed from a convid:ion of its in- expediency ; and they will rely upon it, that while the fame inexpediency fubfifts, you will never attempt to make fuch ano- ther. Q^ What do you mean by its inexpe- diency ? A. I mean its inexpediency on feveral accounts -, the poverty and inability of thofe who were to pay the tax ; the gene- ral difcontent it has occafioned ; and the impradlicability of enforcing it. Q. If the ad: fliould be repealed, and the legiflature fhould fhew its refentment to the oppofers of the ftamp-ad:, would the Colonies acquiefce in the authority of the legiflature ? What is your opinion they would do ? A. I don't doubt at all, that if the le- giQaturt repeal the ftamp-ad, the Colo- nies will acquiefce in the authority. Q^ But if the legiflature fliould think fit to alcertain its right to lay taxes, by any 'I in] 6riy adt laying a fmall tax; contrary to (heir opinion, would they fubmit to pay the tax ? A. The proceedings of the people in America have been confidered too much together. The proceedings of the aifem- blics have been very different from thofe of the mobs, and fhould be diftinguiflied, as having no connexion with each other. ■^-The affemblies have only peaceably re- iblved what they take to be their rights 5 they have taken no meafures for oppofition by force , they have not built a fort, raifed a man, or provided a grain of ammunition, in order to fuch oppofition. — The ring- leaders of riots they think ought to be puniilied ; they would punifh them them- ielves, if they could. Every fober, {tn- fible man would wifli to fee rioters pu- niflied, as otherwife peaceable people have ^o fecurity of perfon or eftate. But as to an internal tax, how fmall foever, laid by the Icgiflature here on the people there, while they have no reprefentatives in this legillature, I think it will never be fubmit- ted to. — They will oppofe it to thelail. — They do not conliderit as at all necellary for you to raife money on them by your taxes, becaufe they are, and always have been, ready to raife money by taxes among themfelves, and to grant large fums, equal to their abilities, upon requifition from F the [ 3+] the Crown.— They have not only granted equal to their abilities, but, during all the lall war, they granted far beyond their abilities, and beyond their proportion with this country, you yourfelves being judges, to the amount of many hundred thoufand pounds, and this they did freely and rea- dily, only on a fort of promife from the fecretary of flate, that it (hould be recom- mended to parliament to make them com- penfation. It was accordingly recom- mended to parliament, in the moft ho- nourable manner, for them. America has been greatly mifreprefentcd and abufed here, in papers,' and pamphlets, and fpeeches, as ungrateful, and unreafonable, and unjufl, in having put this nation to immenle expence for their defence, and refufmg to bear any part of that expence. The Colonics raifed, paid, and clothed, near 25000 men during the lafl: war, a number equal to thofe fent from Britain, and far beyond their proportion ; they went deeply into debt in doing this, and all their taxes .^nd eftates arc mortgaged, for many years to come, for difcharging that debt. Government here wis at that time very fenfible of this. The Colonies were recommended to parliament. Every year the king fent down to the houfe a written mefiage to this purpofe. That his Majefly, " S2E «i [ 35 ] Majefty, being highly fenfiblc of the zeal and vigour with which his faithful fubjeds in North-America had exerted themfelves, in defence of his Majefty's juft rights and pofleflions, recommended it to the houfe to take the fame into confideration, and enable him to give them a proper com- penfation. You will find thofe meflages on your own journals every year of the war to the very lall, and you did accord- ingly give 200,000 Pounds annually to the Crown, to be diflributed in fuch com- penfation to the Colonies. This is the llrongeft of all proofs that the Colonic?, far from being unwilling to bear a lliare of the burthen, did exceed their propor- tion ; for if they had done lefs, or had only equalled their proportion, there would have been no room or reafon for compenfation. — Indeed the fims reim- burfed them, were by no means adequate to the expence they incurred beyond their proportion ; but they never murmured at that, they efteemed their Sovereign's ap- probation of their zeal and fidelity, and the approbation of this houfe, far beyond any other kind of compenfation -, there- fore there was no occafion for this adt, to force money from a willing people j they had not refufed giving money for the pur- pofes of the ad -, no requilition had been F 3 made; i 'T 1 r L 36 ] 1:^ made^ they were always willing and ready to do what could realbnably be expedted from them, and in this light they wifli to be confidered. Q^ But fuppofe Great-Britain fliould be engaged in a war in Europe, would North- America contribute to the fupport of it? A. I do think they would, as far as their circumftances would permit. They conlider themfelves as a part of the Britifli empire, and as having one common in- terefl with it -, Jiey may be looked on here as foreigners, but they do not con- lider themfelves as fuch. They are zea- lous for the honour and profperity of this nation, and, while they are well ufed, will always be ready to fupport it, as far as their little power goes. In 1739 they were called upon to alhfl in the expedition againil: Carthagena, and *hey fent 3000 men to join your army. It is true Car- thagena is in America, but as remote from the Northern Colonies as if it had been in Europe. They make no diftin6tion of wars, as to their duty of affifting in them. I know the laft war is commonly fpoke of here as entered into for the defence, or for the fake of the people of America. I think it is quite mifunderllcod. It began aboLt the limits between Canada and Nova- Scotia, about territories to which the ^ arr r< — ■ ««««— n^-^ [ 37 ] the Crown Indeed laid claim, but were i not claimed by any Britifli Colony ; none of the lands had been granted to any Cot lonifl; we had therefore no particular | concern or interefl in that difpute. As to f the Ohio, the conteft there began about your right of trading in the Indian counr try, a right you had by the treaty of Utrecht, which the French infringed 5 they feized the traders and their goods, | which were your manufa(5lures ; they took i a fort which a company of your mer- % chants, and their fadtors and correfpond- t ents, had erected there, to fecure that trr.de. Braddock was fent with an army to re-take that fort (which was looked on here as another incroachment on the King's territory) and to protedt your trade. It was not till after his defeat that the < Colonies were attacked. They were be- ■ fore in perfedt peace with both French and Indians ; the troops were not therefore fent for their defence. The trade with | the Indians, though carried on in Ame- rica, is not an American intereft. The people of America are chiefly farmers and planters ; fcarce any thing that they raife or produce is an article of commerct^ with the Indians. The Indian trade is a Bri- tifh interefl: ; it is carried on with Britifli manufadtures, for the profit of Britifa mer- C 38] merchants and manufacturers; therefore the war, as it commenced for the defence of territories of tlie Crown, the property of no American, and for the defence of a trade purely Britifli, was really a Britifli war — and yet the people of America made no fcruplc of contributing their utmoft towards carrying it on, and bringing it to a happy conclufion. Q];^ Do you think then that the taking pofleilion of the King's territorial rights, and ftrengthening the frontiers, is not an American intereft ? A. Not particularly, but conjointly a JBritifh and an American intereft. Q^ You will not deny that the preced- ing war, the war with Spain, was entered into for the fake of America -, was it not occafioned by captures made in the Ame- rican feas ? A. Yes; captures of ftiips c?rrying on the Britifh trade there, with Britifh ma-, nufadlures. Q; Was not the late war v ith the In- dians, fince the peace with France, a war for America only ? A. Yes ; it was more particularly for America than the former, but it was ra- ther a confequence or remains of the for- mer war, the Indians not having been thoroughly pacified, and the Americans bore » [ 39] bore by much the greatest (hare of the ex* pence. It was put an end to by the army under General Bouquet^ there were not above 300 regulars in that army, and above 1000 Pennfylvanians. Q^ Is it not neceffary to fends troops to America, to defend the Americans againft the Indians ? A. No, by no means j it never was neceffary. They defended themfelves when they were but an handful, and the Indians much more numerous. They continu- 'dUy gained ground, and have driven the iians over the mountains, without any troops fent to their aififlance from this country. And can it be thought neceffary now to fend troops for their defence from thofe diminifhed Indian tribes, when the Colonies are become fo populous, and fo ilrong ? There is not the leafl occafion for it ; they are very able to defend them- felves. Q^ Do you fay there were no more than 300 ^.;,,iv!ar troops employed in the late India' v'^t-? A. > i* on the Ohio, or the frontiers of Pennfylvania, which was the chief part of the war that .:ffeded the Colonies. There were garrifons at Niagara, Fort Detroit, and thofe remote pofls kept for the fake of your trade ; I did not reckon them. »■ (■ 40 1 them, but I believe that on the whole thd number of Americans, or provincial troops, employed in the war, was greater than that of the regulars. I am not certain, but I think fo. Q;^ Do you think the aflemblies hav6 a fight to levy money on the fubjed: there, to grant to the Crown ? A. I certainly think fo j they have al- ways done it. Q^ Ai'e they acquainted with the de- claration of rig,. And do they know that, by that flatui , money is not to be raifed on the fubjedV but byconfent of par- liament ? A. They are very well acquainted with it. Q^ How then can they think they have a right to levy money for the Crown, or for any other than local purpofes ? A. They underftand that claufc to re- late to fubjed:s only within the realm; that no money can be levied on them for the Crown, but by confent of parliamenta The Colonies are not fuppofed to be within the realm ; they have aflemblies of their own, which are their parliaments, and they are, in that refpe<5l, in the fame ion with Ireland. When money is to be raifed for the Crown upon the fub- jedt in Ireland, or in the Colonies, the confent [+1 ] fconfent is given in the parliament of Ire- land, or in the aflemblics of the Colonies. They think the parliament of Great-Bri- tain cannot properly give that confent till it has rcprelentatives from America; for the petition of right exprefsly fiys, it is to be by common confent in parliament, and the people of America have no reprc- fentatives in parliament, to make a part of that common confent. Q^ If the ilam.p-ad: ih^juld be repealed, and an a(ft tnoukl pafs, ordering the alTcm- blies of the Colonies to indemnify the i\if' ferers by the riots, would they obey it ? A. That is a queftion I cannot an Aver. Q^ Suppofe the King fliould require the Colonies to grant a revenue, and the parliament fliould be as-ainft their doino- it, do they think they can grant a re- venue to the King, withou.t the confent of the parliament of Great-Britain ? A. That is a deep queltion. — As to my own opinion, I ihould think myf.lf at li- berty to do it, and Ihould do it, if I liked the occafion. Q;_ When money has been raifed in the Colonies, upon requifitions, has it not been granted to the King ? A. Yes, always ; but the requifitions have generally been for fome fervice ex- prcfTed, as to raife, clothe and p:iy troops, and not for money only. G Q^If ■ I! i i [ 42 1 Q^ If the aift fliould pafs, requiring tlie American alTemblies to make compenfa- tion to the fufferers, and they fhould dif- obey it, and then the padiament fliould, by another ad, lay an internal tax, would they then obey it ? A. The people will pay no internal tax; and I think an ail to oblige the afTemblies to make conipenfation is unneceflary, for I am of opinion, that as foon as the pre- fent heats are abated, they will take the matter into confideration, and if it is right to be done, they will do it of themfelves. Q^ Do not letters often come into the pod-orhces in America, direded to fome inland town where no poit goes ? A. Yes. Q^ Can any private perfon take up tliole letters, and carry them as direded ? A. Yes; any friend of the perfon may do it, paying the poilage that has accrued. Q^ jbut mufl: not he pay an additional poftage for the diftance to fuch inland town ? A. No. Q^ Can the poft-mafter anfwer deliver- ing the letter, without being paid fuch additional poftage ? A. Certainly he can demand nothing, where he does no fervice. (^ Suppofe a perfon, being far from liom-:.', finds a letter in a poit-olhce di- rected hi [43 ] re(fled to him, and he lives in a place to which the poft generally goes, and the letter is direded to that place, will the poft-mafter deliver him the letter, v/ith- out his paying the poflage receivable at the place to which the letter is dired:ed. A. Yes; the ofHce cannot demand poflage for a letter that it does not carry, or fartlier than it does carry it. Q^Are notferrymen in America obliged, by ait of parliament, to carry over the pofts without pay ? A. Yes. Q^ Is not this a tax on the ferrymen ? A. They do not confider it as iuch, as they have an advantage from perfons tra- velling with the poft. Q^ If the ftamp-adt fliould be repealed and the Crown ihould make a rcquiution to the Colonies for a fum of money, would they grant it ? A. I believe they would. Q^ Why do you think fo ? A. I can fpeak for the C'.>lony I live in ; I had it in inPa'uclion from the lilem- bly to aifure the miniftry, that d6 they al- ways had done, fo they ihould always think it their duty to grant furh aids to the Crown as were fuitablc to their cir- cumftances anid the fecretary of ftate ever write for monc) for the Crown ? A. The requilitions have been to raife, clothe and pay men, which cannot be done witiiout money. Q^ Would they grant money alone, if called on ? A. In my opinion they would, money as well as men, when they have money, or can make it. Q^If / li' L 45 ] Q. If the parliament fhould repeal the itamp-adt, will the airemi)ly of Pcnnfyl- .vania refcind their relolutions ? A. I think not. Q._ Before there was any thought of the ftamp-ad:, did they wifli for a reprefenta- tion in parliament ? A. No. Q^ Don't you know that there is, in the Pcnnfylvania charter, an cxprefs referva- tion of the right of parliament to lay taxes there ? A. I know there is a claufe in the char- ter, by which the King grants that he will levy no taxes on the inhabitants, un^ lefs it be with the confent of the aflembly, or by adl of parliament. Q^ How then could the alTcmbly of Pcnnfylvania alTert, that laying a tax on them by the flamp-adt was an infringe- ment of their rights ? A. They underftand it thus ; by the fame charter, and otherwife, they are in- titled to all the privileges and liberties of Engliihmen ; they find in the great char- ters, and the petition and declaration of rights, that one of the privileges of En- glifli fubjed:s is, that they are not to be taxed but by their common confent ; they have therefore relied upon it, from the Udl fettlcmcnt of the province, that the par-.- ^ ! [46] parliament never would, nor could, by colour of that claufe in the charter, af- fume a right of taxing them, till it had qualified itfelf to exercife fuch right, by admitting reprefentatives from the people to be taxed, who ought to make a part of that common confent. Q^ Are there any words in the charter that jullify that conftrudlion ? A. The common rights of Engliflimen, as declared by Magna Charta, and the pe- tition of right, alljuftify it. Q^ Docs the diftindtion between in- ternal and external taxes exift in the words of the charter ? A. No, I believe not. Q^ Then may they not, by the fame interpretation, objed: to the parliament's right of external taxation ? A. They never have hitherto. Many arguments have been lately ufed here to flicw them that there is no difference, and that if you have no right to tax them in- ternally, you have none to tax them ex- ternally, or make any other law to bind them. At prefent they do not reafon fo, but in time they may pofiibly be con- vinced by thefe arguments. Q^ Do not the refolutions of the Penn- fylvania afiembly fay all taxes ? A. If they do, they mean only internal taxes 3 the fame words have not alwavs the III ^^^^r^ «••*. ''^ le , [47 ] the fame meaning here and in the Colo- nits. By taxes they mean internal taxesi by duties they mean cufloms ; thefe are their ideas of the language. Q^ Have you not feen the refolutions of the MaiTachufet's Bay aifembly ? A. I have. Q. Do they not fay, that neither ex- ternal nor internal taxes can be laid on them by parliament ? A. I don't know that they do; I be- lieve not. Q^ If the fame Colony fliould fay nei- ther tax nor impofition could be laid, does not that province hold the pow^er of parliament can lay neither ? A. I fuppofe that by the word impofi- tion, they do not intend to exprefs duties to be laid on goods imported, as regula- tions of commerce. Q^ What can the Colonies mean then by impofition as diflindt from taxes ? A. They may mean many things, as impreffing of men, or of carriages, quar- tering troops on private houfes, and the like ; there may be great impofitions that are not properly taxes. Q. Is not the poft-office rate an inter- nal tax laid by adt of parliament ? A. I have anfwered that. Q. Are all parts of the Colonies equi^lly able to pay taxes ? A. Nc. Il ''J [48] A. No, certainly i the frontier partsy which have been ravaged by the enemy, are greatly dilabled by that means, and therefore, in fuch cafes, are ufually fa- voured in our tax-laws. Q^ Can we, at this diftance, be com- petent judges of what favours .are necef- fary ? A. The parliament have fuppofed it^ by claiming a right to make tax-laws for America ? I think it i'npofliblc. Q^ Would the repeal of the ftamp-ad beany difcouragement of your manufac- tures ? Will the people that have begun to manufa(flure decline it ? A. Yes, I think they will ; efpcclally if, at the fame time, the trade is opened again, fo that remittances can be eafily made. I have known fcveral inftances that make it probable. In the war before laft, tobacco being low, and making little remittance, the people of Virginia went generally into family manufadtures. Af- terwards, when tobacco bore a better price, they returned to the ufe of Britifh inanufadtures. So fulling-mills were very much difufed in the lall war in Pennfyl- vania, becaufe bills were then plenty, and remittances could ealily be made to Britain for En^rlifli cloth and other o;oods. Q^If >f- V- T [49l Q^ If the ftamp-ad: fliould be repealed, would it induce the afl'emblies of Ame- rica to acknowledge the rights of parlia- ment to tax them, and would they erafc their refolutions ? A. No, never. Q;_ Is there no means of obliging them to erafe thofe refolutions ? A. None that I know of; they will never do it, unlefs compelled by force of arms. Q. Is there a power on earth that can force them to erafe them ? A. No power, how great foever, can force men to change their opinions. Qj_ Do they confidcr the poft-office as '■ax, or as a regulation ? A. Not as a tax, but as a regulation and conveniency ; every afl'embly encou- raged it, and fupported it in its infancy, by grants of money, which they would not otherwife have done ; and the people have always paid the poftage. Q^ When did you receive the inflruc- tions you mentioned ? A. I brought them with me, when I came to England, about 15 months lince. Q^ When did you communicate that inftrudion to the miniller? A. Soon after my arrival, while the ftamping of America was under confidera- tion, and before the bill was brought in. II q^ Would \^-)f 1' i? i Ah '0 I ( 5° ) Q^ Would it be moft for the inter^ft of Great-Britain, to employ the hands of Virginia in tobacco, or in manufadures. . A. In tobacco, to be fure. Ci^ V/hat ufed to b.e the pride of the Americans ? A. To indul-r-e in the falliicns and ma~ nnfadures of Great-l:5ritain. Q^ What is now their pr'de ? A. To wear their old cloaths over again^ till they can make new ones. ■ / w:thdrc%if* % - .T > 1 ■« i r f • .tsii .CI ^ 'r ^m «,...K ^FJ^v ^^■>: "• 4. ft of s of ;s. . •.( tne ma~ gain, . a : * .>2is*. - '. ■~.ii' -■-Vrt -•f^ :g 4*^^-:,: .*;■'■ Vy,