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 REPOliT OF PROCEEDINGS 
 
 AT A 
 
 M E E T I N G 
 
 ^ 
 ^ 
 
 OF THB 
 
 (^^ HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, 
 
 HELD AT 
 
 THE COMPANY'S HOUSE IN PENCHURCH STREET, 
 
 On WEDNESDAY, MARCH 24th, 1869, 
 
 Thr Right Honourable 
 SIR STAFFORD HENRY NORTHCOTE, Bart, M.P., 
 :•; : : ::•. : : ;• ;\ i;:^*; c^aIh'./ *:• 
 
 
 • • • • • I o • 
 
 ••••••••• ••• 
 
 fl 
 
 |(onbon : 
 
 JOSEPH OAUSTON & SONS, PRINTERS, 
 47, Eaatchbap, E.g., AifB SoxTTHWAWc Strbbt, S.E. 
 
 1869. 
 
5 
 
 • : ••! • • • • . ... ... 
 
 . • • « • . . . 
 
 • • • . t 
 
 • • • 
 
 
 . • t • 
 
 » . . .' I t • • . 
 
 
 ( 
 
REPORT. 
 
 5 
 
 I 
 
 At the request of the Chairman, the Secretary read the 
 notice convening the meeting, im follows : — 
 
 A General Court of the Governor and Company of 
 Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's 
 Bay, will be held at their house in Fenchurch 
 Street, on Wednesday, the 24th instant, at One 
 o'clock precisely, when a proposal by Her Majesty's 
 Government for the transference of the Company's 
 territory, &c., to the dominion of Canada will be 
 considered. 
 
 By the 7th George III, cap. 48, no person can be 
 admitted to vote who has not been in possession of 
 stock for six calend^.r months, unless such stock 
 shall have been acquired by bequest, or by 
 marriage, or by succession to an Intestate's Estate, 
 or by the custoTH of the City of London, or by 
 any deed of settlement after the death of any 
 person who shall have been entitled for life to the 
 dividends of such stock. 
 
 By Order of the Governor and Committee, 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 Hudson's Bay House, 
 
 London, \&L March, 1869. 
 
 WM. G. SMITH, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 A 2 
 
Mr, Bonar: I rise to a point of order. As we have been 
 admitted without tickets, have any steps been taken to 
 ascertain whether all the persons present are members of 
 the Company P 
 
 Mr. Eley : Signing the names being no protection. 
 
 The Chairman : Gentlemen, I understand that the 
 practice which has been pursued upon the present occasion 
 is the same as that which has been pursued on other 
 occasions. But, however that may be, I xmderstand that all 
 who have come in, with the exception of the Officers of the 
 Company, have been called upon to sign their names, and, 
 having done so, that will be a prima facie test at all events 
 that they are members of the body of Shareholders. If a 
 ballot should be called for, and any vote should be taken 
 otherwise than by show of hands, of course persons coming 
 to vote will have to show who they are, and that they are 
 on the register of Shareholders. In regard to a show of 
 hands, it might happen that there may be persons, I do not 
 think it probable there are many, who are not entitled to 
 vote, and of course if any important question is decided 
 by show of hands, and it is thought desirable to test 
 the opinion of the Shareholders by a more regular 
 process, any seven of the Shareholders can demand a ballot 
 by putting their names in writing. I believe the next thing 
 I ought to do is to call upon the Secretary to read the letter 
 from Sir Frederic Rogers. I would ask whether you wish to 
 have it read .? (" No." " Take it as read.") Then, gentle- 
 men, I would say, in the first place, I must correct an error 
 in the notice which has been published convening the Meeting, 
 which, I believe, has attracted the attention of some Share- 
 holders, and which is sufficiently obvious. It is of no real 
 importance, but it is an error. You are told that you are 
 called upon to consider a proposal for the transference of the 
 Company's territory to Canada. Now, that is not accurate. 
 
 
t^ . 
 
 i 
 
 The proposal is that it should be surrendered to Her Majesty's 
 Government, which is a very different thing, and I must 
 apologise on behalf of the Directors for having inadvertently 
 put the matter in the form in which it appears. I shall 
 proceed, after having made a few observations, to move a 
 resolution, and I think it may be convenient that I should 
 now read the resolution, so that you may have it clearly in 
 your mind what it is we are speaking about. I inti>nd to 
 propose — " That it is expedient to accede to the terms pro- 
 " posed in the communication above referred to, and to 
 " surrender to Her Majesty's Government all this Company's 
 ** territorial rights in Rupert's Land, and in any other part 
 " of British North America not comprised in Rupert's Land, 
 " Canada, or British Columbia, and that the Governor and 
 ** Committee be, and are hereby, authorised to make such 
 ** surrender on being assured that the terms have been agreed 
 " to by the Government and Parliament of Canada, provided 
 " that the acceptance of the terms by the Government and 
 " Parliament of Canada shall have been signified to them by 
 " Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, within 
 " six months after the passing of this Resolution, and that 
 " for that purpose the Governor and Committee concur in all 
 " such measures as may be found necessary for effecting such 
 " surrender, and for securing to the Company the rights and 
 " reservations to which, by the terms of the letter from Sir 
 " Frederic Rogers, this Company will be entitled." Now, 
 gentlemen, I may be allowed, before I call your attention to 
 the correspondence which has been placed in all your hands, 
 to make some general remarks upon its particular points. I 
 wish, in the first place, very earnestly to direct the attention 
 of the Shareholders to the nature of the business they are 
 called upon to do to-day, because there is no doubt that, 
 considering that this correspondence goes back over a period 
 of six years, and that it raises a great many interesting and 
 
6 
 
 important questions, it is no doubt probable that members 
 of this Corporation may bo disposed to ask questions, and to 
 make remarks upon various matters arising out of it. Of 
 coiirHC we have no wish in any way to check the freedom of 
 discussion, and we shall bo perfectly prepared to enter into 
 any discussion into which members of this body may wish to 
 invite us, but the particular point which we are called upon 
 to decide is this, whether we will or will not accept the terms 
 which are offered to us by Lord Granville. I hope, therefore, 
 that the attention of the Meeting will not be diverted from that 
 particular question. One other observation I wish to make. 
 The foundation of this Company's rights rests upon a charter 
 of 200 years old. That charter has been frequently discussed, 
 frequently challenged, and made the subject more than once 
 of parliamentary enquiry, and submitted to legal opinions. 
 The Company have had reason to be satisfied with the results 
 of those enquiries and with the opinions that have been given. 
 ]iut you must bear in mind that it does not follow 
 because opinions have been given in your favour upon this 
 or that particular point that has been raised, you are alto- 
 gether sure that there is no point which can be urged against 
 you. Now, I wish you would bear in mind that there 
 are two classes of rights which this Company Las exercised 
 and continues to exercise under the charter. One is the 
 right to the possession of its land, and the other is the right 
 of governing the country. Now, those two are totally dis- 
 tinct. In regard to its rights to the possession of its bind, 
 I think, speaking here, we may say, with great confidence, 
 that those righto and our title under the charter are as good 
 as it is very well possible for a charter to give, I think that 
 we may be saticfied that the opinions of law officers, the 
 decisions of Parliament, and the conduct of Her Majesty's 
 Government upon many occasions and for a long time back, 
 give us every reason to be satisfied that we have a really 
 
 ) 
 
 'i 
 
f 
 
 I 
 
 ■]■ 
 
 good title to the possession of our land. In saying that, you 
 must remember that when I say our land, it is of course a 
 question what the precise limits of that land are. Those 
 limits have never been actually defined, and although I feel 
 perfectly confident that the extraordinary pretensions put 
 forth by Canada would be utterly futile, we must never 
 conceal from ourselves the fact that the precise limits of our 
 territory have not been defined. Then, in regard to the 
 other question, the right of government, you must remember 
 that the case stands somewhat in this way : that we have, 
 under our charter, a right to exercise such authority m our 
 territories as is necessary for the maintenance of order and 
 for the due carrying on of such business as is required. 
 But, as far as opinions have been given, that right does not 
 give us any exclusive sovereignty over this territory, to the 
 exclusion of Her Majesty's right of sovereignty ; and the 
 opinions that have been given expressly say that we have no 
 exclusive right of government, taxation, or other matters of 
 that kind. Therefore, it stands to reason, if that be so, and 
 it has never been decided otherwise, that Her Majesty might, 
 by the exercise of her sovereign power, at any time choose 
 and claim to exercise sovereignty over these territories vhich 
 have been hitherto left to our administration ; and, if she did 
 so, all these rights of sovereignty, rights of taxation, rights 
 of government, and judicial authority would bo in the hands 
 of Her Majesty, without derogation to our title to our land ; 
 but, at the same time, without our having any right to say 
 that we had an exclusive claim to exercise that authority. 
 Now, I believe that is an accurate description, as far as I can 
 give, of the position in which the Company legally stands. 
 That being so, let me now call your attention for a few 
 moments to the progress of events in 'the last six years, us 
 they are disclosed in this correspondence. It appears that, 
 six years ago, this Company was reorganized upon a new 
 
8 
 
 basis, for the purpose of continuing to carry on tlio fur trade, 
 whicli hud been the principal business of the Company in 
 former times, and, at the same time, with a view to the 
 extension of a policy of coloniMation and settlement of the 
 territory. That re-organisation, gentlemen, which is the 
 turning point for the present in the history of this Com^yuny, 
 took place in the year 1863, and was inaugurated by the 
 issue of a prospectus, of which every Shareholder, of 
 course, is cognisant. And I may mention here, that that 
 step was taken — I believe I am not going too fiar in 
 saying, — with the sanction and encouragement of the 
 Colonial Minister of the day, the Duke of Newcastle ; at 
 all events he was perfectly cognisant of what was going on, 
 and he expressed, in the House of Lords, publicly, his 
 gratification at the el;ep that had been taken, and there is 
 no doubt that those who were originally interested in that 
 reorganisation of which I have spoken, had every reason to 
 believe, and did believe, that they had the hearty and cordial 
 support of the Colonial OflBce in the matter. Well, they 
 were going to undertake to extend the operations of the 
 Company in a new direction. There had been some little 
 settlement before, but that was of comparatively minor 
 importance. Under the old state of things, while they were 
 carrying on the fur trade, the powers which they possessed 
 of government, as incidental to their possession of the land 
 under the terms of the charter, had been found quite suffi- 
 cient for the particular purposes that they required. They 
 had found that they were quite able to deal with the Indians, 
 and able to keep order amongst their own servants, and they 
 were quite able to maintain peace and good government 
 in the country as it had stood, and for the purposes for 
 which they used the country. But when they came to con- 
 sider what would be the effect of an extension of the policy 
 of colonisation, and the introduction into this territory of 
 
 1 Ti 
 
9 
 
 I 7 i 
 
 
 large bodies, perhaps it raiglit be of independent settlors, 
 who would be in no way connected with their fur trade, and 
 under no obligationH to them, and who would carry with 
 them the traditions and the spirit of EngliHlinien, and who 
 would require a government, it became obvious that some- 
 thing must be done to strengthen the authority in that 
 country. Now, the promoters of the reorganisation, as I 
 understand, being perfectly cognisant of the distinction to 
 which I have drawn your attention, and recognising the fact 
 that Her Majesty's right of sovereignty still prevailed, and 
 must necessarily continue to prevail if she chose to assume 
 it, hoped and believed that as soon as they had established 
 their Company Her Majesty would exerciae that right, and 
 that she would establish such a form of government as 
 might be necessary to give a settled constitution to the 
 colony ; and in that hope, as soon as the Company had been 
 formed, they addressed the Duke of Newcastle and asked 
 him to establish a government. I am bound to say — I 
 do not know what influences might have been at work — 
 that, when I look at the answer they received from the 
 Duke of Newcastle, I cannot but imagine that the Directors 
 of the Company must have been disappointed at the mode 
 in which that application wo^ met; because, the iirst thing 
 the Duke of Newcastle said to them was not, " Gentlemen, 
 you are undertaking a magnificent enterprise which Her 
 Majesty's Government have long desired to see, and to 
 which we wish all ^'ccess, and we are prepared to co- 
 operate with you in '•eclaiming all this territory for the 
 British Crown, and peopling it with British settlers, and we 
 are prepared to do what you desire, and to establish a form 
 of government," but the Duke of Newcastle said, " No ; 
 before establishing any form of government, I must ask you 
 to give me up your land." Well, that certainly was rather 
 a hard measure for the Colonial Office, as I think, to deal out 
 
10 
 
 to a Company which they had really themselves encouraged 
 to come into eristence. Howe'^er, that answer was given, 
 and thereupon the question arose what the Directors must 
 do. In reply, having argued the matter as well as they 
 could, and finding the Duke was determined upou this, they 
 »&i6., " Very well, if we are to give you our land you must 
 pay for it," and in the first place they asked to be paid a 
 sum of a million sterling. The Duko said what anybody 
 might have expected, he was not likely to get the 
 House of Commons to agree to it; and I must say, as a 
 member of the House of Commons, I think he probably was 
 quite right. Then the Company made another proposal, and 
 they said, " Well, if you won't give us a million of money, 
 give us half the land and take half for yourselvec." That, I 
 must say, seemed a very reasonable proposition for them co 
 make, but that was met with an equally decided refusal. 
 The Duke of Newcastle then made a counter proposal 
 of his own, and he said, *- If the matter is to be dealt 
 with at all in this way, it must be by your handing 
 me over your land, and my agreeing to gi -r you out 
 of the proceeds of that land, as it comes to be sold, 
 so much per acre — not until you get your million, — ^but 
 till you get ^250,000." That was the proposal which he 
 made, and to the Directors that seemed of course perfectly 
 inadequate. However, they maae thereupon a counter pro- 
 posal, which was calculated to have obtained .■>r them after 
 the lapse of a certain time, if the sales went on as it might 
 be hoped they would do, the sum of a million, of which they 
 had spoken ; and there were other points in the proposal. 
 Well, this was under consideration when the Duke of New- 
 castle died, and he was succeeded by another minister. 
 Then, at that point of time, I think it was that the first 
 communication came from Canada, putting in a claim on 
 their part, disputing the Company's title to a considerable 
 
 
 > 
 
tl. > 
 
 11 
 
 portion of the territory, and asking the Colonial Office to 
 stay their hand in the matter till they had been heard. The 
 Colonial Office thereupon took up ^he side of Canada and 
 stayed their hand, and they used their influence with the 
 Directors of the Company, to induce them also to stay their 
 hands until the matter should have been brought in a formal 
 shape before them by the Government of (Canada. The 
 Government of Canada it was understood were invited to 
 make proposals, and were supposed to be ready to do so, and 
 it was supposed that very soon there would be a diiect deal- 
 ing between the Government of Canada and the Company, 
 for the transference of the land to Canada. But at this 
 point comes in a new feature. ' Canada says, " We are now . 
 in negotiation for the Confederation of the British I^orth 
 American ;)rovinces. We mufit wfit till that Confederation 
 is accomplished. We cannot act alone ; we must wait until 
 the Confederated Parliament can act." Then that again was 
 pressed upon the Company by the Colonial Office, and feel- 
 ing, as they have done throughout, that it was their interest 
 and their duty to conform, as far as possible, to the wishes of 
 Her Majesty's Government, the Directors held their hands 
 for some time, in order to see what would come of this Con- 
 federation scheme. Ultimately, as you know. Confederation 
 was passed, and in the Act, which ratifies the Confederation 
 of the British North American dominions, a clause was 
 inserted, giving power to Her Majesty to transfer to the 
 dominion Rupert's Land and other parts of North America 
 upon the address of the Canadian Parliament. That having 
 been done, the Canadian Parliament passed an address to 
 Her Majesty, in December, 1867, praying she would annex 
 these territories to Canada. In that address they stated 
 they should be ready to provide for the proper recognition 
 of the rights of any private company, evidently referring to 
 the Hudson's Bay Company. Upon its receipt, the Colonial 
 
12 
 
 Office sent a copy of the address to the Hudson's Bay 
 Directors, and requected that the Directors would state 
 what terms the Company would ask, with a view to this 
 transference, assuming the basis of the negotiation which 
 had been under discussion with Mr. Card well in the 
 year 1864, namely, a remuneration by being recouped 
 out of prospective sales. You will find the first reply 
 to that letter from Lord Kimberley, I think, in May> 
 1868 ; but before any answer was sent, or before any- 
 thing further was done, it was thought necessary by 
 Her Majesty's Government to pass through Parliament a 
 Bill authorising the Company to surrender, and the Crown 
 to accept the surrender of all lands, rights, and so forth, of 
 the Company in these territories, and then giving the Crown 
 power to accept that surrender, and to transfer the territory 
 to the Canadian dominion on being satisfied with the terms 
 of the address which the Canadian Parliament mighc pass 
 thereupon. When that Act had become law, the negotia- 
 tions were resumed, and a further letter was sent by Lord 
 Kimberley in October last, with the terms which the 
 Company suggested, and said they would be ready to submit 
 to the judgment of their Shareholders. Now, that came 
 very nearly at the time when the late Government were 
 going out of office, and almost the last act done by the 
 Duke of Buckingham, as Secretary of State, was to send 
 an answer, dated the 1st December, 1868, which you 
 will find amongst this correspondence, objecting to the 
 terms suggested by Lord Kimberley, and proposing cer- 
 tain counter propositions. When I had the honour of 
 being elected Governor of this Company, I found the matter 
 reating there, and it was at that point that I personally had 
 to take up the negotiations. Well, looking back over all 
 these proceedings, I thought I saw what the whole tenour of 
 the conduct of the Directors had been, and I also wished to 
 
 1 1> 
 
13 
 
 1 1> 
 
 • 
 
 ■r 
 
 know what had been the views of the Shareholders in the 
 matter. Well, I found that the correspondence had not 
 been laid before the Shareholders, but that in the year 1866 
 a report very carefully drawn up, and very full, had been 
 submitted to the Shareholders, in which the general views 
 of the Directors had been laid before them, and upon which 
 the opinion of the Shareholders had bden taken, by a process 
 which, though it does not amount to a legal vote, was & 
 method of ascertaining the opinions of those who were good 
 enough to send in their opinions. I looked at that report, 
 and I found that the gist of it was this, that the Directors 
 pointed out to the Shareholders that their choice lay between 
 either colonising themselves at considerable risk ps they 
 suggested, and at the cost of probably a considerable outlay 
 of capital, and at the cost also of having to direct their 
 energies from the business of the fur trade, or else endeavour- 
 ing to get Her Majesty's Government in the first place to 
 establish a settled Government ; they put to the Share- 
 holders the question, which of those two roiicies they 
 would prefer, indicating themselves a very strong opinion 
 that it was not desirable for the Company under those 
 circumstances to undertake the task of colonising them- 
 selves. In reply to the question they got the opinions 
 not, of course, of all the Shareholders, but of a very consider- 
 able proportion of the Shareholders, and they found that a 
 number of Shareholders, representing in the aggregate up- 
 wards of o^^e million of stock, gave their opinions against 
 the policy of colonising immediately, whilst a number of 
 Shareholders representing, I think, something like Jt'l 00,000 
 worth of stock gave their opinions in the opposite direction. 
 Upwards of one half of the whole stock of the Company was 
 thrown into the scale of not colonising, and they were as 
 ten to one against those who were for colonising. Of those 
 who were neutral we can only say they did not take interest 
 
14 
 
 enough in the matter to tb 'ow their weight in the one scale 
 or into the other. Apparently a very decided expression of 
 the opinion of the Shareholders was given, that at that time 
 it was not desirable to go into the policy of colonisation. 
 Well, we found matters were going on in this way, and it 
 had become a question what we were to do. Ac that moment it 
 was quite obvious there were two policies open to the Company. 
 They might have said, " Very well, the Duke of Buckingham 
 has rejected these proposals, and put forward counter proposals 
 which are inadmissible ; we will throw them up and colonise 
 ourselves." Or we might endeavour still to bring the matter 
 to an amicable settlement, and looking to what appeared to 
 have been the consistent policy of the Company — looking to 
 what I believe to be the true interests of the Company — to 
 act in cordial co-operation with Her Majesty's Government, 
 upon whom, after all, we must depend ; and looking also, as 
 a member of the House of Commons, as I felt bovmd to do, — 
 to the mode in which this matter would present itself to the 
 House of Commons if it ever came before it, which it was sure 
 to do J — I thought it was clearly our policy, and I gave my 
 opinions to my brother Directors in that way very strongly, 
 to answer the Colonial Office — to point out the objections to 
 these proposals, and at the same time to make a fresh sug- 
 gestion, which is contained in the letter, namely, that a 
 simpler method of dealing with the question would be pre- 
 ferable, and that it would be better a sum of money should 
 be paid us for the Company's rights. That led to the pro- 
 posals which are now before the Meeting. It led, in the first 
 place, to Lord Granville's communicating with the Canadian 
 delegates now in this country. They sent in a long letter, 
 throwing all sorts of dirt upon our title, calumniating us in 
 every possible way, and I carmot say that letter is calculated 
 to produce a very favourable impression. But at the same 
 time, as a matter of business, it does not do to be af&onted 
 
 > 
 
 ^ 
 
 I 
 
 P 
 
15 
 
 ' 
 
 (\ % 
 
 with language f^f this sort. You want to look at the kernel 
 of the matter. Of course we pass it by, as I think Lord 
 Granville intended us to pass it by, as a little bit, perhaps, it 
 may be, of transatlantic style of writing. It is not the style 
 Df writing I hope we shall adopt. We passed it by, and we 
 went really to the root of the matter. Now the root of the 
 matter in their proposal was. that they said, " It is utterly 
 impossible we can recognise any claim of these gentlemen to 
 anything at all, but if you do wish to buy them off as a 
 troublesome set of individuals who have got possession of 
 your territory, and of whom you want to get rid, but cannot 
 get out without a troublesome lawsuit, you had better com- 
 promise, and if you do it at all the utmost we could g'n 
 woidd be £106,000, and if they object to take that, we call 
 upon Lord Granville to advise the Queen to transfer all this 
 dominion to Canada, subject to the rights of the Company.'* 
 Now the Canadians, I have no doubt, knew what they were 
 about when they said that, because it would be perfectly 
 competent for Lord Granville, or for the Crown if it were 
 pleased, to transfer the territory to Canada, subject to the 
 rights of the Company, and the Company might be said to 
 be protected in its rights* but of course we should have some 
 difficulty in dealing with our masters in that case, our rights 
 not having been recognised and established, and we should 
 be subjected to all the incidents which a body handed over 
 to a sovereign power are subject to ; that is to say, we should 
 be subject to taxation and everything else, without any 
 power or right on our part to remonstrate. We should have 
 our land, but we should be subject to taxation. Then, that 
 being the case, we replied to Lord Granville, and told him 
 we could not possibly suppose that the Government would 
 commit such an act of injustice as to hand us over without 
 taking security for our rights ; and that with regard to this 
 sum of money it was, of course, obviously inadequate. We, 
 
16 
 
 therefore, in reply to a question which Lord Granville 
 askecv as to what we proposed to do while the territory was 
 left in our own hands, reverted to the original proposal that 
 we made in the days of Sir Edmund Head and the Duke of 
 Newcastle, to make it a Crown Colony, and we made this 
 amendment: — "We will undertake to recommend the Share- 
 holders to hear the expense of that." Now, if we had had 
 to come to the Shareholders and say — " Gentlemen, we have 
 obtained the consent of the Crown to establish a Crown Colony, 
 and we must ask you to put your hands in your pockets and 
 bear the expense," I do not know how that would have been 
 received. Well, we should have recommended it, and I 
 believe it would not have been at all a bad thing for you to 
 accept. But there was this difficulty, that Lord Granville 
 gave us distinctly to understand that he would not do it, and 
 we knew that the Puke of Newcastle had refused to do it. 
 We knew, moreover, what the sentiments of Mr. Gladstone, 
 in former days, had been upon the subject. We knew, in 
 that Committee of 1857, with which I dare say you are 
 familiar, Mr. Gladstone had moved a resolution which was 
 only defeated by the casting vote of the Chairman, that all 
 that part of the territory which is capable of colonisation 
 should be taken away from the Company, and that the govern- 
 ment of it should also be taken away from the Company ; we 
 felt we had no means of compelling Lord Granville to grant 
 this which we requested. On the other hand, we should have 
 pressed the matter if he had not come forward as he did and 
 said " I am going to make one last eflFort to bring you to the 
 point of selling this territory to us, and I tliink you will find 
 that the terms I shall propose will be for your advantage, or 
 at all events that they wiU be better for you than what I must 
 propose as an alternative. As an alternative, I must bring 
 the matter before the Judicial Committoe of the Privy 
 Council, and investigate your title before I decide what other 
 
 , ;. 
 
17 
 
 
 \ 
 
 \\ / 
 
 ')! ♦ 
 
 I 
 
 steps, either legislative, judicial, or executive, I propose to 
 take." That was the condition of affairs, and Lord Granville 
 made this proposal, which I am bouud to say, on the part of 
 the whole of the Directors, we are perfectly convinced is a 
 better proposal than either of those that have been made to 
 us by previous colonial secretaries. It embraces the pay^^ient 
 of a sum down — a considerable sum of money — £300,000 ; it 
 embraces the reservation to us of all our posts and stations, 
 and of an acreage round them ; it embraces also the security 
 for the maintenance of our trade, and so forth, and it provides 
 for the right to obtain, by lot, one twentieth of the lands 
 described in Sir F, Rogers's letter as the fertile belt. Well, 
 when I say that our Directors are unanimously of opinion, 
 which I believe I am justified in saying, that that is better 
 than the terras that were offered by the otiier ; ;retaries of 
 state, I am not thereby saying that the Directc s consider 
 that they are good terms in themselves, or that they even 
 consider necessarily that they are terms that should be 
 accepted. All I am saying is that we are quite clear they 
 were the best of those that had been proposed, and you had 
 therefore to consider whether vou would take those terms or 
 accept the alternative of going before the Judicial Committee. 
 Now, suppose you went before the Judicial Committee. In 
 the first place, it io quite certain that that would take ^p a 
 good deal of time. A law suit is by no means an agreeable 
 thing. We looked upon it in this way ; supposing you get 
 this territory handed over to you, it would in any case be 
 only what is ci^lled an improvable estate. An improvable 
 estate means an estate which is not worth anything until you 
 have laid out a good deal of capital upon it and waited some 
 time for the returns. But it would have been not onlj' an 
 improvable estate, but an improvable estate with a law suit 
 on it. I shall have to mention to the Shareholders, directly, 
 that there is a law-suit with which we have some familiarity. 
 
 B 
 
18 
 
 Something analogous to this discussion has been going on for 
 twt nty-fivo years, between this country and the United States 
 of America, in regard to claims that we have upon the Oregon 
 territory, and that is not yet settled, though I hope it is 
 nearly brought to a settlement. That gives one a little 
 horror of these law suits, because, as I observed, though our 
 title to the land is good, the question — what is that land ? — 
 is open to discussion, and you would have an enquiry into 
 its limits, and so forth, which might involve references and 
 all sorts of enquiry, and certainly take up time, and, in the 
 meantime, you would be out of your money, and probably 
 put to a great deal of inconvenience. That is one great 
 objection to that course. Another is, that when you have 
 got your title confirmed, you will be still open to the diffi- 
 culty that Lord Granville, or the Government of the day, 
 might proceed by some legislative action which you would 
 not forsee, and which might be extremely inconvenient to 
 you. Well, then, I conceive we must ask you to look at 
 this question in a business point of view. We must ask you 
 not to consider whether these terms are satisfactory or not, 
 but whether, under all the circimistances, it is not the best 
 thing for you to accept, rather than to refuse them. You 
 will have a considerable advantage from them. Now, with 
 regard to this £300,000, I have heard a remark made upon 
 it. It is said, " True, you will have £300,000, of which the 
 interest may be, perhaps, some £15,000 a-year, but you 
 will bring yourselves under the taxation of Canada, which 
 will tax your imports to the amount of something like 
 £l»5,000 a-year, and you will gain nothing." That io, one 
 is to be set off against the other. I am sure business 
 gentlemen, such as those 1 am addressing, see the fallacy of 
 that argument, because, supposing you did not do it — sup- 
 posing that you were handed over to Canada, with a reser- 
 vation of right to your land — supposing it was said, " You 
 
 
 V f 
 
 ' 
 
19 
 
 'V 
 
 have an absolute title to your land ; nobody nhall take it 
 from you, but you will, however, be handed over to the 
 sovereignty of this country." You would immediately come 
 mder their taxation, and would not get the £300,000. 
 Therefore, 3'ou would pay this £15,000 a year, or whatever 
 it might be, but you would not have the interest of £300,000. 
 You would only have your improvable estate, which you 
 would have to improve as best you could, and you would 
 have to improve it under most disadvantageous conditions, 
 because you would be under the rule of a government which 
 would i^ave j interest in assisting you in improving it. 
 They would say, we know, " Gentlemen, wo have no interest 
 in this land ; it all belongs to you ; we cannot lay out roads, 
 cannot do this and that ; we have quite enough to do with 
 the government of the country. It costs us a great deal to 
 keep order, to prevent these troubles with America, — extra- 
 dition to America, or keeping the Indians in order, or this, 
 that, and the other. We have quite enough to do in that 
 way, and we cannot help you to lay out and settle your 
 country." I say we should be in a very disadvantageous 
 position. I do not think you would expect me to come 
 and tell you all the disagreeable thiiigs the Canadians might 
 do if we were in that position, because we do not want to 
 put them into their heads, but there is no doubt they might 
 do a great many verjr incobvenient things. On the other 
 hand, I fully believe, in my own mind, that, if we accept 
 this offer, we shall have the Government with us, we shall 
 have Canada interested in car prosperity, because we shall 
 be her best subjects, her only profitable subjects, over a large 
 portion of the territory ; we shall retain the basis of the 
 fur trade by these posts and stations, connection with 
 the Indians, and so forth, and have a very excellent 
 start in the new country ; and, if it developes as it is 
 to be expected it will, by the advance of civilisation, 
 
 M 2 
 
20 
 
 we shall have an uncommonly fine estate. Here we are 
 toM fire 160,000,000 of acres of fertile land and so forth, 
 and wo are to have one-twentieth. I do not know that all 
 that 160,000,000 of land will come to bo sold ; if it did you 
 would get your 8,000,000 acres of land in a country which, 
 by the hypothesis, should have been settled for you, with 
 roads and other communications made by the colonial 
 government. I do not hesitate to say that that one-twentieth 
 would be more valuable to us under those circumstances than 
 the other nineteen-twentieths would be if we had everything 
 to do for ourselves under all the disadvantages. But that is 
 a matter for yourselves to consider. You are much more 
 familiar with matters of this kind than I am. I have no 
 doubt your judgments will be a great deal better than mine, 
 but I can only say, that, with the most earnest desire to 
 arrive at the truth, and to give you the best advice upon this 
 matter, this is the advice which the Directors have decided 
 to give you. We say, you had better accept these terms, 
 and we will then undertake, as rapidly as possible, to con- 
 centrate all our energies upon the development of the fur 
 trade, and accommodate ourselves to the altered state of 
 things. I won't detain — I am afraid I have detained — yoti 
 very long, but the truth is that a little recompense is due to 
 you for the length of time during which this has necessarily 
 been kept from the knowledge of the Shareholders. It was a 
 matter that it was due to you we should state our views very 
 fully upon, and I can now only add this one observation. 
 The matter has been the subject of very protracted and 
 difficult negotiations with the delegates from Canada. That 
 negotiation has been carried on by Lord Granville, and we 
 have not, till lately, been brought into communication with 
 the delegates at all. They are anxious to return to Canada 
 in the course of next week, for this reason, that the Canadian 
 Parliament meets on the 15th of April, and they are desirous 
 
31 
 
 ^•v 
 
 to submit the proposal to the Canadian Parliament immedi- 
 ately on its assembling. It is therefore important, if wo 
 decide upon accepting it, that we should decide quickly. We 
 do not wish to press you in any wj.y to come to a hasty deci- 
 sion if you feel that you are not able to do so, but we press 
 you to come to a very early decision, and it really is of great 
 importance in this matter hat the decision should be finally 
 arrived at before the Canadians leave England, at the end of 
 next week. I hope that you may feel yourselves able to day 
 to come to a resolution. At the same time, we do not wish 
 to press you if you require more time and more explanations. 
 We have laid our views as fairly bofore you as we can, 
 therefore I will only now submit the resolution which I road 
 at the beginning. 
 
 A fc?HAREHOi,i)KR : I wish to ask if the £300,000 includes 
 the whole territory. It is said to be bounded by the Rocky 
 Mountains and certain lakes, but there is a large tract of 
 country, as I apprehend by the map, not included in the 
 fertile belt. It is very indefinite in the first head. It speaks 
 not only of the fertile belt. " all the rights of Government 
 property, &c. inRupert's Land which are specified " in 
 certain Acts, but " also all similar rights in any other part 
 of British North America not comprised in Rupert's I and, 
 Canada, or British Columbia." Now, if the whole property 
 is to be taken for £300,000, it appears to me that the trade 
 of the Company will be gone altogether, because they might 
 exercise rights over the hunting grounds and every thing else. 
 
 The Chairman : It will, perhaps, be more convenient if 
 honourable Proprietors will put their questions, and then I 
 will answer them at the end, but, if you wish, I can answer 
 this question at once. 
 
 Mr. L. W. BoNAR : I wish to say, Sir Stafford, that I am 
 entrusted with an amendment to the resolution which you 
 have moved from the chair. 
 
22 
 
 The Chairman : Tho motion lias not hetti seconded. 
 
 Mr. BnoDRicK : T formally second it. 
 
 Mr. BoNAR : This amendment is the expression of the 
 just and natural surprise and indip^nation felt by the 
 Shareholders at the imperative notice issued on Saturday 
 last, calling upon us to .surrender our vested rights at the 
 bidding of a minister. I am obliged to add that this 
 conduct on the part of the Directors, in endorsing such a 
 summons, is a further betrayal of their trust to us, and I 
 believe we must, as our best policy and our surest safeguard, 
 look to that authoritative decision of the Committee of the 
 Privy Council which is held as a threat over our heads. 
 Without wishing to digress more from tho immediate 
 subject than is necessary, it is impossible not to comment in 
 the severest language upon the damaging disclosures 
 contained in tho opening part of the correspondence, nor is 
 it possible to avoid protesting in the severest terms against 
 the deliberate and systematic violation which goes through 
 the whole of the correspondence of that condition, that 
 scheme of colonisation proposed by the prospectus, always 
 insisted upon at every meeting of the Shareholders, and 
 which was the express and paramount consideration for 
 which the Directors took i;2,000,000 sterling for the sale to 
 us of tho land. I ask what was the con uderation for which 
 we paid to these Directors i' 1,000,000 bonus? ("Question") 
 It is the question. I challenge any of the three Directors of 
 the Old Company now on the Board to rise and explain to 
 the Meeting what was the other object for which that 
 bonus was paid. Was it to shift upon our shoulders the 
 decreasing profits and burdens of an exhausted fur trade ? 
 Was it owing to a knowledge of coming events concealed 
 from us ? Was it a tacit under.standing to help Canada with 
 our money to get for nothing that territory which it was 
 not honestly prepared to buy ? Or was it one of those 
 
 \^ 
 
23 
 
 '•f 
 
 financial operations of tho day, by which the money of the 
 Shareholders passed into the pockets of others P Or, again, 
 was it a still simpler operation, that the Directors, having 
 no stake in tho Company beyond tho qualification to hold 
 office, sought to secure to themselves valuable annuities 
 for lifeP For whichever of those objects good faith was 
 bartered away, tho result to us is tho same. Here is a 
 planned inactivity of empty despatch wriving, by which the 
 attack on our rights might bo made easier, and by which 
 that tribunul, which in 18()JJ would have protected the active 
 rights of our charter, might be tho more easily coerced to 
 act against us. I therefore protest that it is an outrage 
 against established forma, against decency, against common 
 sense, and against our self-respect to call upon us on 
 the notice of three days to entertain the proposals 
 now before us, or to give a reply before we have 
 examined the subject with proper care, so as to see that 
 nothing has escaped the attention or the knowledge of the 
 minister on our behalf — that wo should be coerced for the 
 convenience of other persons, or for any other purpose, into 
 giving a decision before our minds are carefully made up. 
 You, sir, have alluded to Parliament. Coercion will not be 
 tolerated either in Parliament or in this country, i'juliament 
 and this country first require of parties who feel aggrieved, 
 that they should evince the spirit and put forth the energy 
 to defend themselves. I therefore call upon this Meeting, 
 not only as Shareholders, but as men, with one voice to 
 support the amendment which is committed to my charge 
 and which I shall now read — "That this Meeting be ad- 
 " journed to Thursday, the 6th day of May next, at one 
 " o'clock precisely, and that a Comraittee consisting of" — 
 (names which I shall mdlition to you — the names of persons 
 whose sentiments have been expressed often in this room)— 
 " Mr. L. N. Bonar, Mr. C. J. Eley, Mr. William Hogg, Mr. 
 
24 
 
 " Harry Sewell, aud Colonel Millington Synge " (who has 
 surveyed the territory), "be, and is hereby, appointed for the 
 " purpose of conferring with the Governor and Committee 
 '* Vfith reference to Ijord Granville's proposal dated March 
 ** 9th, 1869, and that such Shareholders' Committee be, and 
 " is hereby, insti acted to forward to the Shareholders their 
 " report, previously to the adjourned meeting," 
 
 Mr. Eley : T beg to second that resolution, and in 
 seconding it my remarks will be very brief, and they will be 
 to the point. I do hope that, as my lungs are not quite so 
 strong, possibly, as those of some gentlemen here, if they 
 happen to dif^oi* from me, they will at any rate not attempt 
 to cry me down. In the first place I venture to sub- 
 mit that we have no offer before us for our consideration. 
 We are simply asked by Lord Granville to say that 
 in no event whatever will we ask of Canada more than 
 £300,000. I ask you whether you are so foolish as 
 thus to place yourselves in the power of Canada, and prevent 
 yourselves claiming, at any time, more than £'300,000. I ask 
 whether it is likely that Canada will give you even that ? and 
 I ask you further, gentlemen, ''hether that is a position 
 which it is fair for Lord Granville to attempt to place U3 in ? 
 I ask you further, and more especially, whether that is a 
 position which your Directors, as your guardians, ought to 
 wish to place yon in? Now, gentlemen, with regard to the 
 £300,000, I beg to say his. I urn going to make a passing 
 allusion to a matter not immediately before the meeting : the 
 Directors need not fear that I will digress or take up the 
 time of the meeting beyond half a minute in alluding to a 
 matter that is not actually before them. Gentlemen, you 
 are asked to give up nineteen-twentieths of your territory 
 for a sum of money which is no ii»ore than was retained u v the 
 International Financial Society for carrying out a fina'" ,ial 
 manipulation, by means of which a sum of no less than 
 
 »> 
 
25 
 
 i!800,000 was extracted from youi' pockets and put .'nto the 
 pockets of other people, and for which you have never 
 received one farthing. Now, I promise that I will keep to 
 the point. What are you asked to do ? I was not sorry that 
 the Chairman referred to the fact that we should have to pay 
 certain sums of money, in the shape of customs duties, 
 on imports into the Hudson's Bay territory. The honorahle 
 Chairman has assumed one state of things whereas we assume 
 the contrary. We decline ^,o accept that as our position. 
 What does it amount to ? I shall not be contr?-dicted when 
 I say that the value of any given sum of money depends 
 upon the revenue or income you can derive from it. Now, 
 £300,000 at 5 per cent, is, of course, £15,000 a year, and it 
 does not matter, as far as the principle of the thing is con- 
 cerned, whether you receive £3 per Share and invest it 
 at five per cent., or whether that additional five per cent, 
 is added to the dividend that may be doled out to you. 
 you are virtually ofiered £15,000 a-year. Now, what will 
 you have to pay ? Of course, imder present circumstances, 
 while yoii retain the sovereignty and the fee simple of your 
 property, you do not tax yourselves. Your imports into the 
 Hudson's Bay territory are free. But the moment you 
 transfer your sovereign and territorial rights, your imports 
 will be subject to the custom's dues of Canada. Well, gentle- 
 men, what would you have to pay upon your present trade of 
 £400,000 ? Why, you would have to pay £20,000. These 
 figures are not mine, they are supplied by the Directors them- 
 selves in a letter indited as recently as January — a letter written 
 by Sir Stafibrd Northcote, on behalf of himself and his Co- 
 Directors, to Lord Granville. Then, what you ave asked to 
 do is this : you are asked to receive with one hand £15,000, 
 and to pay with the other £20^000. Gentlemen, that is called 
 " compensation." Now, allow me to put the matter in another 
 light, and I can do so in a very few words. What you are 
 
26 
 
 asked to do is this : you are asked to make a free gift to Canada 
 of nineteen-twentieths of your property, and you are asked 
 to pay, as a privilege for retaining the other twentieth, 
 a penalty of £5,000 a-year. Well, gentlemen, we discovered 
 in 1863 what the meaning of the term "financing" was — 
 we found that O'li; to our cost, to the extent of £'800,000 — 
 but we have had to wait till to-day to find out the meaning 
 of the word " compensation.'* All I have to say is this, I 
 should like to know whether the Directors would be willing 
 to treat for the transfer of their own private property upon 
 the same conditions, because, if so, I should like to open an 
 account with them to-morrow, to deal with them to a very 
 large extent. Gentlemen, my impression is that if I was to 
 say, as some ancient did, " I pause for a reply," the instant 
 reply would be " Pavs ofi"." We are told that an immediate 
 settlement of this questioii is necessary to our interest. 
 Gentlemen, an immediate settlement is necessary, but, it is 
 far more necessary to the Imperial Government and to the 
 dominion of Canada than it is to ourselves. It is of the 
 utmost importance to the Imperial Government because, as 
 Lord Granville himself admits, as he is forced to admit — if 
 he did not admit it, we, as sensible men, should know it — 
 it is of importance to the Imperial Government for inter- 
 national reasons ; and, to prevent the possibility of any 
 cont„igency arising, which might eventuate in war between 
 the United Stfi,te8 and England, it is of the utmost importance 
 to the Imperial Government that this question should be 
 settled at once. It is of the utmost importance to Canada 
 that this question should be settled, because, until it is 
 settled, she cannot consolidate her power nor can she develop 
 the resources of the territory which she already possesses. 
 But it is of the less importance to us, because we are in 
 possession. Sir Stafibrd Northcote has told you, and I am 
 pleased that he has had the candour to tell you — it is not 
 
 t 
 
27 
 
 I 
 
 ot'ton, when Chairmen have an object in view, that they will 
 be candid — he has candidly told you that in his opinion your 
 title is clear. Gentlemen, with regard to the validity of your 
 title, bear in mind that it has been called in question over 
 and over again, and has been settled in your favour by the 
 opinions of some of the highest judicial authorities of the 
 country. With regard to our fearing any appeal to the 
 Privy Council, it is the very course that we have been asking 
 Canada and the Imperial Government to adopt for many 
 years past. Gentlemen, the grand difficulty in our way 
 has been this, and the correspondence proves it to you, 
 that Canada, instead of treating with us or with the 
 Imperial Government upon our behalf, as to the terms 
 upon which we shouL ^^urrender our property, continually, 
 and almost in every despatch, calls in question the validity 
 of our title. If yoa take my advice, you will certainly 
 rather insist upon, than be fearful of an appeal to the 
 Privy Council. Now, gentlemen, I dare say you have been 
 to some extent influenced by articles in the press which 
 have appeared week after week, and day after day. Under- 
 stand v/hat those articles mean. You must of course under- 
 stand, or at least the majority of you,, that the press of this 
 country, and more especially the liberal portion, is very 
 anxious indeed to help the Imperial Government to over- 
 come the difficulties they are in, and if you reject this 
 proposal, as I am sure you will do, and if you agree to the 
 appointment of this Committee, T^hich is proposed, you will 
 remember not as an investigating Committee, but for the 
 purpose of conferring with the Directors and rendering 
 available for you the very important information which Col. 
 Synge can give you, he having surveyed the country for 
 imperial and military purposes — if you agree to the appoint- 
 ment of the Committee, as I feel sure you will do, you will 
 find that to-morrow, the day after, and the day after, those 
 
28 
 
 articles in the press will be repeated, and they will be con- 
 tinued until the matter is settled. I wish you to understand 
 that, and not to be led away by those articles. Ther I have 
 to caution you with regard to another matter. I am not 
 going to be invidious, or to refer to any gentleman by name, 
 or to say a word to lead you to understand who it is that I 
 am referring to, but you must understand that upon our 
 register of Shareholders there are gentlemen who do not and 
 who cannot speak to you in a Shareholder's point of view, 
 who are really the representatives of other parties, who are 
 the agents of Canada in this country. Now I know exactly 
 what is going to be said to you to-day, at least I think so, 
 and I know who it is that will say it. I have no doubt what- 
 ever that your fears will be appealed to. Gentlemen, I am 
 not one to say that there is no cause for fear. There is cause 
 for fear, but the cause is from within, not from without. 
 You cannot be despoiled of your property, and your destinies 
 are really in your own hands. There is one other point I 
 wish to refer to, and it is this ; many Shareholders — the 
 majority of Shareholders — are apt to look at the quotation of 
 their shares in the market, and to be guided thereby. Now 
 your Shares are not really at a discount. 
 
 A Shareholder : It looks very much like it. 
 
 Mr. Eley: I am not talking nonsense. You have re- 
 ceived no consideration whatever for £8 per Share of the 
 £20 at which your Shares nominally stand, and if you read 
 carefully the correspondence, you will find that the Canadian 
 delegates refer to that creation of extra capital in 1863, in 
 terms of what I consider well-merited sarcasm. You will 
 find, if you read the correspondence carefully, that the 
 Canadian delegates decline to admit your present capital as 
 any basis for the valuation of your property. Gentlemen, 
 had I told you this three or four years ago, possibly you 
 would not have listened to me. I foresaw that whenever the 
 
 " 
 
 ■■a 
 -II 
 
<i T.r 
 
 29 
 
 tiiiie came for negotiating with Canada, she would do what 
 we should do, and what all business men would do under 
 similar circumstances, decline to be bound by the fictitious 
 creation of capital which went into other people's pockets, 
 and for which you received no consideration. That she 
 would decline to be bound by that as any basis whatever for 
 the valuation of your property. And, gentlemen, bear this 
 in mind, that whatever loss you incur — and I am not one of 
 those sanguine men who would try to induce you to believe 
 that you will incur no loss — you will do, you must do, but 
 whatever loss you incur, bear this in mind, that it will be 
 due not to any inadequate offer that will be made to you by 
 Canada, or by the Imperial Government on behalf of 
 Canada, but it will be due entirely to the fact that in 1863 a 
 sum of no less than £800,000 was extracted from your 
 pockets, and put into the pockets of other people, for which 
 no consideration whatever, was received. ("Question.") I am 
 net going to say another word upon the matter, but I think 
 ic bears upon the question. I admit, however, that it 
 has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of your property. 
 I admit — indeed, I claim that. I admit further, and indeed 
 I insist upon it, that this proposal of Lord Granville, on 
 behalf of the Canadian Government, amounts to spoliation 
 and confiscation. I have addressed you, gentlemen, on 
 former occasions, at considerable length, and, therefore, I 
 will inflict no further remarks upon you. I promised to 
 keep to the point, and I think I have done so. I think, 
 further, that there is the less necessity for addressing, to 
 you any lengthened remarks to-day, because I cannot believe 
 it possible that a body of men, such as I see assembled here, 
 can take "a leap in the dark," without further consideration, 
 and without receiving that information which I believe we 
 shall be enabled to give them. I cannot believe it possible 
 that you can so stultify yourselves as not to consent to the 
 
30 
 
 appointment of this Committee, and to some necessary delay, 
 in order that you may receive the necessary information. 
 Gentlemen, I conclude by repeating what I said before : you 
 have cause to fear, but the cause is from within, and not 
 from without. You cannot be despoiled against your will ; 
 your destinies are in your own hands. 
 
 Mr. Gerstenberg : Gentlemen, I was apprehensive that 
 I should be obliged to detain you for some time, but now a 
 few minutes will suffice, in consequence of the very ad- 
 mirable manner in which the honourable Chairman has 
 condensed the enormous matter before us, and I must thank 
 him for the very truthful way in which he has put the 
 whole case to us. While I support the amendment, that a 
 Committee of Consultation of Shareholders should be ap- 
 pointed to confer with the Directors, I must just briefly observe 
 that I have joined issue with my friends who have proposed 
 that amendment with regard to the affairs of this Company. 
 I have declared heretofore that, during that speculative 
 period of 1863, I went deKberately into the market and took 
 my shares at a premium of one million. I considered it 
 then, and I consider it now, a perfect bargain to buy a 
 thousand million acres of land for a million poun* ■ s sterling. 
 It is the greatest bargain that could possibly be, to buy a 
 covmtry as large as Europe for a million sterling. Why, the 
 City Offices Company paid this for a few square yards. It 
 is the greatest bargain that ever was made. But, gentle- 
 men, I believe that we have great cause of complaint with 
 the Directors for not having carried out the condition upon 
 which that premium was paid. The Directors knew, and 
 the public knew, what was stated in the Blue Book of 1857, 
 to which the Chairman has alluded, and, perhaps, he will 
 peimit me to say that that decision of Mr. Gladstone need 
 not frighten us at all, because, if a transfer had been made 
 according to his proposition, compensation would have been 
 
 ' 
 
 • J 
 
 it 
 
 t. 
 
31 
 
 *.l. 
 
 given. Mr. Gladstone has stated, and very trutlifully, that 
 property carries duties with it, and if persons do not fulfil 
 those duties, it- is natural that the Government should take 
 it away. Now, it will appear by the Blue Book, that the 
 Canadian Government charge the Hudson's Bay Company 
 that they did not fulfil their duty, which was to colonise and 
 develope the country. A new Company was established, 
 and it was stated to the Duke of Newcastle that ample 
 means were forthcoming, and that the money would be laid 
 out in colonisation and development. ("Question.") Gentle- 
 men, this is a very important thing, and, unless we come to 
 this point, we canrot undertand the transactions of the 
 Company. Now, I find fault with Sir Edmund Head, that 
 the moment a difficulty was raised with respect to Canada, 
 he at once stated that he wanted to wait until this question 
 was settled — the question of the right of title. The Share- 
 holders pressed the Company to colonise — to do something 
 in order to develope and to establish a certain value. The 
 Duke of Newcastle said, " You have to sell, Canada has to 
 buy. The price to be given is to be determined by what tho 
 property is worth to you, and by what it will be worth to 
 Canada." I, individually, urged upon the Directors to 
 establish a value by the development of a portion of the 
 territory, in order that we might say to the Government, 
 " This is our value ; we have sold two or three thousand 
 acres at such a price, and, consequently, a million of 
 acres is worth so much." That was urged upon the 
 Directors, and they met it by a proposition to the Share- 
 holders in a way that was contrary to the form prescribed 
 by the charter, that is, they appealed to absent Shareholders. 
 The present Shareholders were all unanimously in favour of 
 our proposition, and the charter says that the members then 
 and there present shall decide, but, contrr ry to the provision 
 of the charter, an appeal was made to absent Shareholders. 
 
32 
 
 (" Question.") Now I will conclude with this observation. 
 The honourable Chairman has given us a very excellent and 
 admirable exposition, but when he came to argue I must 
 candidly confess I was surprised to find him so weak in his 
 argument. It seems that we are to receive £300,000, and 
 pay £20,000 a-year against it. Now, If we remain as we 
 are, certainly we shall be £5,000 a-year better, but then the 
 Government might, without our consent, assign the adminis- 
 tration of our property to the Canadian Government, and 
 then they would not do anything in improving the country 
 to make our portion of the property valuable. Now, gentle- 
 men, I believe that could not be the case, because if the 
 British Government transferred the right of dominion to 
 Canada, the British Government would be bound, and the 
 Hudson's Bay Company would take care that it should be 
 bound, to make those improvements for which we are to be 
 disendowed and disestablished. Consequently, I say it with 
 the greatest respect fo the Right Honourable Chairman, this 
 really cannot be an argument. The additional argument 
 that the Chairman has used I also candidly confess has made 
 a very disagreeable impression upon me. I am a bondholder 
 of various claims upon governments. Several governments 
 have come before the public and have said, " We make you 
 an offer by way of compromise. We owe you f 100, and we 
 offer you £40 or £50 or so ;" and a threat has been held out 
 to us, " If you do not accept this, you will get nothing." 
 And another threat has been held out — " If you do not do 
 it at once it will be too late," just as we are told now that the 
 Commissioners are about to proceed to Canada. Gentlemen, 
 I am sorry to say, to my cost, that I have very freq. ently 
 heard these threats addressed to public meetings, to timid 
 shareholders, and more especially bondholders ; and I have 
 always considered that it is by no means right that it should 
 be done, and especially have I thought it wrong that such 
 
33 
 
 threats -such prospects, in (errorem — should be held out by 
 the Directors to Shareholders. Therefore I must say, with 
 the utmost respect, that T entirely disagree with that line of 
 policy. The impression on the publi^mind is this, that the 
 Canadian Government want to rob us of our property. Mr. 
 Gladstone has given an answer : " The Hudson's Bay Com- 
 pany does not perform its duty, therefore you are right in 
 reality, although you are wrong in theory." And Lord 
 Granville, than whom a more amiable, just, or upright 
 person does not exist, stated the other day at a meeting of 
 the Colonial Society on the one side, and of the Canadian 
 Government on the other, that he does not know what to do ; 
 that he wishes to please both parties, and he only hopes to 
 succeed in displeasing both. That is very natural. Our 
 Directors also are most amiable and highly respectable 
 gentlemen. They see there is some wrong committed 
 somewhere, and that somebody now must pay the piper. 
 Gentlemen, the question is whether there is not another pur- 
 chaser ? Here is a statement made by these parties. They 
 say — " Sir Stafford Northcote claims credit for the Company 
 because they have * declined to encourage overtures which 
 have been made to them by private persons for the purchase 
 of portions of the Company's territory, with a view to their 
 colonisation.' Our information is (and we can give Earl 
 Granville names and dates, if the point is deemed of any 
 importance), that the only 'overtures' of the kind mentioned 
 which the Company have received, were not merely * en- 
 couraged,' but suggested and concocted by prominent mem- 
 bers of the Company, for the purpose of producing an 
 impression on the Government, and with a view not to colo- 
 nisation, but to negotiation and the Stock Market." Now, in the 
 first place. Sir Stafford Northcote has stated that they con- 
 sider it beneath their dignity to take notice of this. I agree 
 that under the circumstances it did not merit an answer, and 
 
 c 
 
34 
 
 ! I 
 
 it is for the Shareholders not to allow their Directors, or 
 their chief representative to be insulted by these gentlemen. 
 If we are robbed, that is quite enough. (" Time.") I would 
 only detain you a mjpute longer. I never like to address an 
 unwilling audience : I am sorry to take up your time, but 
 this is an important question. I have nothing more to say, 
 except to conclude by telling you that a bond fide offer of a 
 million sterling for this property has been made, and why 
 the members of your own Company should not be allowed to 
 make an offer and to take an interest in the matter, I cannot 
 conceive. If I and other Shareholders say, "we want to 
 buy your property for a million, instead of your selling it to 
 Canada for £300,000," I cannot see why these insinuations 
 should be made. As regards myself, although I am a 
 member of the Stock Exchange, I have held fifty Shares in 
 your Company fi am the beginning, and I have never sold or 
 transferred a single Share ; consequently it is not with the 
 view of concocting certificates in the market that I speak. 
 I think you can very easily obtain a million sterling for your 
 property, and I believe that if you appointed that Committee 
 of Consultation, of which I have not been proposed to be a 
 member, the hands of the Directors will be strengthened. I 
 am perfectly convinced of the bond fides of the Dir*"otor8 : I 
 have the highest regard for their personal character ; but it 
 seems to me that they are mistaken in the course they pro- 
 pose. I beg to support the amendment. 
 
 Mr. WiLiJAM Fenton : — I was very much delighted to hear 
 the seconder of the amendment inform the meeting that 
 our Shares are at par, because when I left Lancaster yesterday 
 they were only ranging from £13 to £14 per Share. Sir, I 
 am extremely sorry that the proposer of the amendment has 
 thought proper to introduce passion and feeling into this 
 discussion to-day, because this is purely a business question. 
 Is it desirable that we should accept this proposal, or shall 
 
 \. 
 
36 
 
 f/ 
 
 we reject it 't That is the question we are to decide to-day. 
 Not being able to come to a conclusion upon the matter, I 
 have risen with the object of asking one or two questions 
 which may possibly illustrate the subject. In the 9th 
 Article of the proposal, we are informed that the Company 
 is to be at liberty to carry on its trade without hindrance in 
 its corporate capacity, and no exceptional tax is to bo placed 
 on the Company's land trade or servants, nor any import 
 duty on goods introduced by them previous to the surrender. 
 Now to a great extent I consider that the whole question 
 turns upon this clause. It has been properly said that if, 
 on the one hand, we are given £15,000 a year, on the other 
 hand £20,000 may be taken from us. I rise to ask this 
 question, whether it is probable that you will get this clause 
 to a certain extent altered. If you think it is possible to 
 exact from the Government, or from the Canadian Govern- 
 ment, I do not care which, the condition that our trade may 
 be continued as is at the present moment. At present, 
 gentlemen, we import goods into our own ports, and through 
 our own ports they get into the country : we bring our furs 
 down the rivers, and at port York, or some other ports, they 
 are dispersed all over the world. On both operations we 
 are at the present moment perfectly free from duty, but I 
 apprehend that if we agree to this proposal, hereafter we 
 shall be taxed and no longer free as at present. You have 
 already. Sir, alluded to this question, and to my mind it is 
 very important. The whole question hinges upon it ; and 
 I advert to it again with the view of your giving some 
 further answer, or hoping that you will be able to get the 
 matter put right. Then I wish to ask you another question. 
 I am interested to the extent of £10,000 in the stock of the 
 Company, therefore to me it is an important matter. We 
 know that in Canada the country is defended, or ought to 
 be defended, by means of the Militia. Now if we agree to this 
 
 c 2 
 
ae 
 
 propoHal, will our servants engaged in our business be liable 
 to fipfve in tho Militia of Cenadtt ? If they are it would be 
 a great detriment to the oporatiors of the Company, and 
 that is tho second question I venture to ask. Gentlemen 
 who read the correspondence which has been put into our 
 hands, will find that we have already paid to Lord Selkirk 
 £80,000 for a portion of the property we possess. Now, I 
 want to know, is that territory for which we have paid 
 £80,000 to be left to us, or is it part of the property which 
 we are to convey to the Canadian Governmont ? 
 
 The Chairman : Thai is included. 
 
 Mr. Fenton : Then there is one other matter, with regard to 
 which I desire to ask a question. What do you propose to 
 do with the i*300,000 ? Is it to remain in the coffers of the 
 Company, to be manipulated by the Directors, in whom I 
 wish to say I have the greatest possible confidence, put out 
 at two or three and a half per cent., as the market rules, or 
 is it to be paid into the pockets of the Shareholders ? This 
 is a very important matter, which I hope will have the 
 attention of the Shareholders and the Directors. I have 
 not yet made up my mind whether I shall vote for the 
 amendment or for the proposal of the Directors. As I said 
 before, the whole question, in my mind, turns upon the 
 subject of duty. 
 
 Mr. Robert Barnett : I wish to make a few remarks to 
 my brother Shareholders, with all respect to the body of 
 Directors. I am usually in favour of " the powers that be," 
 but I Y \7it to know this, whether we, as a Company, having 
 what v.e oelieve to be a valid title to a large extent of land, 
 are in that unhappy state in which there is only one 
 customer in the world. I hold myself to be as true-born 
 an Englishman as any man in this room, and I should 
 be sorry to see that large breadth of land in North 
 America given to the American people, but I have yet to 
 
37 
 
 leurn that there are not other customers who will come 
 forward and pay us the full value for our property. If we 
 have property that is not worth anything, let us give it away. 
 Very recently we have had it stated, in different papers, that 
 a portion of North America has been sold by the Russians to 
 the United States, and I believe the amount given was 
 7,000,000 dollars, which represents something like £1,200,000. 
 Now we are offered this small sum, and wo are advised by 
 our Directors to accept it. It is not mot by a direct negative, 
 which I think it might have been, but these gentlemen have 
 brought forward a temperate amendment, and said "Give us 
 time to determine what we will do." Now, that is such a 
 temperate amendment that I think it behoves us to accept it. 
 Some observations have been made with regard to persons 
 who have come into this room. I, myself, saw a gentleman 
 come here without attemjjting to sign the paper before 
 entering the room. I do not believe that all the gentlemen 
 in this room arc Shareholders of the Hudson's Bay Company. 
 I say the amendment that has been put forward is so tem- 
 perate, proposing that time should be given to us, that I 
 think we ought to agree to it. 
 
 Col. SvNGE : My name has been brought so prominently 
 before you that I trust you will excuse me for saying a few 
 words to the Shareholders. I promise to trespass as little 
 upon your time and attention as possible. 1 speak to 
 business men. The proceedings of the Meeting have been 
 brought to this point, that it is for you to say at once 
 whether you will decide affirmatively or negatively the 
 question of delay for the purpose of conference with the 
 Directors. There has been much in what has been said by 
 every speaker that has my cordial assent and support, and 
 I think I shall be only giving expression to the unanimous 
 feeling of the Meeting, though it may not be perfectly 
 in order to do so, if I say that your affairs never 
 
38 
 
 would have been in the painful position in which they 
 now are had you been presided over by a gentleman 
 possessing the ability and the straightforwardness of 
 your present Chairman. I have devoted my life, since 
 arriving at the age of manhood, in the effort to open British 
 North America to civilisation and habitation. It is not 
 lightly or without consideration that I come here, at some 
 inconvenience to myself, to address this Meeting, a thing I 
 have never done before, except at rare intervals, in this room 
 or in scientific bodies- -speaking on the spur of the moment 
 to which I am utterly unaccustomed. I entreat you not to 
 be as svibmissive as a r. an was once desired to be when his 
 assailant eaid to him " Arrah be aisy, boy ; lie down and let 
 me knock your brains out." If you do not lie down and 
 deprive yourselves of this property ; if you do not take £3 
 per Share as the value of it ; but if you enter as you are 
 bound to do upon the performance of your duties, you do not 
 know what value your property may acquire. A large por- 
 tion of it, beyond dispute, will prove most valuable if you 
 keep it in your own hands. With regard to the second 
 notice, it did not reach me direct from this house. I was 
 moving, and it was forwarded to me through the post by a 
 friend. I honestly confess that my first impression on 
 reading it was that it must be a hoax, when I looked at the 
 terms of the letter. I am at a loss to express myself with 
 propriety upon such a subject. I must be very stupid (I 
 believe I am in matters of legal arrangement), but it seamed 
 to me quite unintelligible. I could not make head or tail of 
 anything in these articlefi except that they were " Surrender, 
 surrender, surrender." 1 do not understand how anybody 
 could put his name to a document for which he was respon- 
 sible that would be so unintelligible. I consider that signing 
 a carte blanche would be clear in compaiison with it, because 
 you do not leave yourselves in the hands of any one person in 
 
 (> 
 
39 
 
 whose honesty you have confidence, but you submit to 
 specified terms, which are laid before you as an idtimatum, 
 by which you are bound, and by which you bind those who 
 enter into that agreement with you. I sent a few notes to 
 a friend cl* mine, who consulted me before I made up my 
 mind to attend this Meeting at all, for I thought it was no 
 use entering upon a forlorn hope, and I confess that after 
 more than twenty-five years* study to accomplish this object, 
 at great personal loss, and never at any personal advantage 
 to myself, I have well nigh given up hope. The object for 
 which I originally entered upon this enterprise is nearly 
 extinct. I am, as I led you to infer from the little sentence 
 that I purposely introduced, of Irish origin. TVhen my 
 fellow-countrymen were starving by millions, when it was 
 said they deserved starvation because they were idle, and 
 drunken, and worthless, by those who professed to be their 
 friends, I was a military ofiicer doing duty in the wild parts 
 of Canada, and I thought " Why on earth should this relief 
 money be wasted uselessly and mischievously when here is 
 territory upon territory unoccupied?" My friends were 
 writing to me upon the subject, and they thought because I 
 was an Irishman, and doing duty in Canada, that I could 
 give these people waste land to occupy. That is the origin 
 of my interest in this question. I say, when I looked through 
 this letter the first thing I saw was " Surrender." The next 
 thing I thought was, " What security is there for the 
 £300,000 ? " I confess I do not see what the security is. 
 But in looking through the correspondence attentively, T see 
 that the Imperial Government is security. So far, I believe 
 that is correct, but with regard to the surrender of Columbia, 
 the surrender of Oregon, to which you have particularly 
 alluded, our rights have been surrendered, if I am not misin- 
 formed, by the Imperial Government of the United States, and 
 we therefore have a claim upon tha Imperial Government, but 
 
 \i 
 
40 
 
 ■»!■ 
 
 we have been unpaid up the present moment. In the same 
 way we have to surrender to Canada, but where is the secu- 
 rity for payment within a specified time ? Your right of 
 claiming lots will be closed, finally, in fifty years. Everything 
 not open thjn will be lost to you ; but there is no guarantee 
 that anything shall be opened. You have always calculated 
 the value of your property upon average. The country is a 
 stepping stone between the Atlantic ard the Pacific. Of 
 course it is necessary and reasonable that there should be 
 convenient posts for transit and communication, and as they 
 have to be supported by the agricultural produce of the 
 country where land is in the most favcurabl-e contiguity with 
 the posts, if you secure that you will be doing well ; but 
 there is nothing of the sort provided for in these articles. I 
 think you will probably agree that this delay should be 
 grunted. The only thing which can bi nr^ ^ against it is 
 that the Chairman has put before you th iu tiie Canadian 
 delegates want to go over the water. The Chairman has 
 told you that these gentlemen have been throwing dirt at 
 you without measure. Now, if you are not entitled to your 
 land, you are not honest peoplo in wishing to be paid for it. 
 The people that want to deal with you and say that you have 
 no valid title, say " Oh ! we want to go across the water and 
 make quick work of it." It appears to me that when a 
 man wants to pick your pocket, or garotte you (I have 
 never been garotted), or take your property away from 
 you, or do any other grievous bodily harm or ^'.nal 
 injury, he will be quick over it and nov let the .> tf ■ 
 pass. I think therefore, confining myself to the poin ;f 
 reasonable delay, that I shall have the unanimous support of 
 the Meeting, and I believe the Chairman himself will be 
 most ready to say that this is not an unreasonable thing to 
 suggest. "Well, then, I must tell you that I thought when 
 the first notice came that we were only to assemhlo pro fornia 
 
 ¥ 
 
41 
 
 i- 
 
 and that the proposal must be met by a negative. I waited 
 with some impatience, and with great interest, until I found 
 what the reasons were upon which we were advised by no 
 less an authority than Sir Stafford Northcote and his Co- 
 Directors to assent to these terms. I have never been in the 
 House of Commons to listen to the debates, but I have often 
 read them with great interest, and I feel that we shall get 
 the approbation and support of the representatives of our 
 country so soon as it is understood that there has been an 
 attempt to force us against our will. I would venture to 
 ask our representatives, and our Chairman to say this in our 
 behalf, that our delay was only caused by a desire to have 
 more than three days to consider proposals that took the 
 combined wisdom of the Imperial Government by successive 
 administrations of the House of Commons, by endless com- ' 
 mittees of our Directors, innumerable days to arrive at a 
 conclusion, the effect of which is to deprive us of our 
 property. I confess when I got up this morni jj^-, I wished 
 to see what the quotations for lunatics were. You will 
 remember that the privilege of going mad and being sup- 
 ported at the public expense is confined to Irishmen. Now 
 the progress of civilisation has deprived you of a very large 
 source of revenue — the falling off of beavers. They are no 
 longer worn for hats. If you wiU allow me to end my speech 
 in a homely manner, I would say I think you will be as mad 
 as hatters if you consent to surrender your rights. 
 
 Mr. Skinner : It is evident that an adjournment is 
 absolutely necessary. I need hardly say that I am in the 
 profession of the law, and I dare say many other gentlemen 
 are similarly situated. Any legal gentleman can see that 
 there is a law suit in every one of these articles. In 
 Article 6, for instance, we are told that we are to take one- 
 twentieth part of the land in the fertile belt. In Article 1 we 
 are told that we are to surrender the fertile land. Now, 
 
42 
 
 what has become of the difference ? Are we to be excluded 
 from the difference or take one-twentieth of the whole. 
 Then, passing on to the 7th, it states that the boundaries are 
 to be adjusted to certain points. Those points may, or may 
 not, i,iclude more than is now understood by the fertile belt. 
 I have always understood the fertile belt to be about 
 46,000,000 of acres. You told us in your address that it 
 was to consist of 160,000,000. The hon. gentleman who 
 spoke before me has anticipated some of the observations 
 that I intended to make. It seems to me that we are to be 
 literally bound hand and foot. We can carry on our trade 
 now without taxation, we have all the land now without 
 taxation. Supposing the Canadian Government has the 
 sovereign right transferred to it, surely it would not see it 
 to be its interest to tax us, so as to exclude our land. Tbat 
 would be a suicidal policy. Surely the gentlemen who 
 address that impertinent letter to us would hardly be able to 
 stand up in the Canadian legislature to say that. But there 
 is another most important matter to which I wish to 
 call your attention in the concluding clause of Article 12. 
 After giving those incongruous articles as heads of pro- 
 posal, it winds up by saying that the details of the 
 arrangement are to be at once settled by mutual agreement. 
 Now, who are the parties who are to make that mutual 
 agreement ? The Canadian Government and ourselves ? The 
 Colonial Government '-nd ourselves ? or all three ? I 
 despair of any mutual agreement with the Canadian 
 Government ; I despair of anything being finally concluded 
 with the Canadian Government that is not precisely defined. 
 I, for one, shall cordially support the amendment, and I am 
 willing that my name should be added, if desirable ; but I 
 certainly will not vote for any proposals from Lord Gran- 
 ville, or any other party, that do not accurately and pre. 
 cisely define the terms of the surrender. I say, there is a 
 
 y 
 
43 
 
 t 
 
 a 
 
 law-suit in every article of these terms. Then, the 
 monstroLlty of the 6th Article is anoth*^r matter to be 
 observed upon. It is said that we are " to pay a rateable 
 share of the survey expenses, not exceeding ." 
 
 Now that is a most important matter. The Canadian 
 Government may malje the cost of the survey come to more 
 than the fee simple. They may say, " We have been at the 
 expense of a survey. We have had to pay for cattle and for 
 horses, and have been put to a great expense ; we cannot 
 let you have this under lOs. an acre." Who is to decide the 
 matter? I say that we are bound hand and foot if we 
 accept these proposals with these important things left in 
 blank. How can men of business consent to it ? Then, 
 again, with regard to Article 4, I really think the Directors 
 can scarcely have read the correspondence, in suggesting 
 that, seriously, for our acceptance. I find a proposal, put 
 forward by Sir Edmund Head and other Governors, that we 
 were to have, not a total of 50,000 acres roimd our settle- 
 ments, 6,000 acres round each settlement, which would give 
 300,000 acres. The last speaker says that the land round 
 the settlements is most valuable, and, as we have been at the 
 cost of making that value by putting settlements there, 
 surely we ought to have the advantage of it. I say we 
 ought to have 5,000 acres round each settlement. But, 
 whatever we have, let it be defined. These few observations 
 I have made as briefly as I could. I hope thut I have 
 satisfied the meeting that an adjournment is the most 
 reasonable and proper thing. I am extremely obliged to the 
 honourable Chairman for the lucid way in which he has 
 brought the matter before us ; but I do not think that his 
 good judgment has been altogether with him when he held 
 out, in terrorem, that alternative, which I only look upon as a 
 bug-bear. 
 
 Mr. Newmarch : One of the observations that has been 
 
44 
 
 just made would seem to me to be pretty well anticipated by 
 the resolution which you read at the close of your speech. 
 If I did not misunderstand you, what you conveyed to the 
 meeting was, in substance, that the letter of Sir Frederic 
 Rogers, which is in our hands to-day, does not contain the 
 details of a scheme, but the heads of arrangement; therefore, 
 in all the proceedings which have taken place so far, or have 
 to take place, I assume in my own mind that whatever may 
 be indefinite, and there is a great deal that is indefinite in 
 the terms set out by Sir Frederic Rogers, and whatever 
 omissions there may be, will be filled u^, as matters of 
 business, before the negotiation can go further. I assume 
 that what we are called upon to determine to-day is, whether 
 or not we will adopt that proposition in principle, whether 
 we will say that we are content or not content to open a 
 negotiation with Her Majesty's Government or the Canadian 
 Government upon the basis of the heads set out in that 
 paper. I beg to repeat the question whether we are willing 
 to open negotiations. (" No, no.") I am perfectly right in 
 my statement : the proposal is that negotiation, with regard 
 to details, shall be opened on the basis of that paper, 
 coupled with the condition that there shall be a payment in 
 money, when we part with our rights, of X'300,000. That is 
 the point we have to consider to-day. Now, gentlemen, 
 what is our condition ? I am not going back into the history 
 of this case, beyond what concerns the business we are to 
 settle now. Wo are just in this condition, we are in the 
 condition of a corporation possefsing certain extensive rights 
 over a very large tract of country, but those rights, whatever 
 may be our own views upon the subject, are called in question 
 by other people — by people on the other side of the Atlantic. 
 Now the question is, whether we are willing to enter into an 
 expensive and protracted law suit. What the loss of time, 
 and what the expense may be, of such a suit, no human 
 
45 
 
 ' / 
 
 being can tell. What we have to consider is, whether it is 
 worth while to enter upon this long investigation, the issue 
 of which no human being can undertake to decide beforehand, 
 or is it worth while to take the other alternative. What is 
 the alternative before us ? Is the Company to enter into the 
 exercise of sovereign rights and set up a government in that 
 distant country, imdertaking the expense of that govern- 
 ment and all the other expenses incident to opening up 
 that great territory. It is open to us to do so, but what we 
 have to consider is whether it is expedient ; is it worth while 
 to undertake the cost of all these operations P It is true it 
 might be a policy which, some ten or fifteen years hence, 
 might turn out to be exceedingly wise and profitable, and 
 therefore it may be the right course to take. What we have 
 to settle to-day is whether, looking at the case as a whole, 
 looking at the probabilities on the one side and on the other, 
 at the cost and the outlay, and so on, it is worth our while to 
 take the £300,000 in money, coupled. with some other very 
 valuable conditions. I quite think that the reservation of 
 land round the ports ought to be larger, but a reservation of 
 three thousand acres is no small matter. But then, there 
 comes the other condition alluded to by the Chairman — we 
 are to have one twentieth part of a very large area — (" Time, 
 time," and confusion, in the midst of which the remaining 
 sentences of Mr. Newmarch's speech were lost.) 
 
 Mr. Sewell : It is some time since I have had the honour of 
 addressing the Shareholders of this Company. I do not think 
 that this is a time for mincing. I have but one observation to 
 make, with regard to the last speaker. I will not say behind a 
 man's back what I will not say before his face. I consider that 
 the last speaker has been speaking in the interests of Canada. 
 He represents Messrs. Glyn. Does Mr. Newmarch come here 
 simply as a Shareholder, or does he come here — I do not say 
 for any unworthy purpose — representing Canada? Sir, in 
 
46 
 
 addressing you, I do not forget that you are for the first time 
 in this chair; but I presume that, representing as you do the 
 Governors who have gone before, you assume, as a Trustee, 
 the same responsibility that they took ; therefore, in any 
 remark I make, I merely make it to the Committee as a 
 body. I must express — perhaps I may repeat more or less 
 what has been said before — the extreme surprise with which 
 I received a document announcing, first of all, that a 
 meeting was to be called ; six days after that, to receive 
 that voluminous correspondence ; and then, three days 
 later, another circular announcing, and giving to Canada 
 the benefit of the announcement, that the Governor was 
 going to propose that you should accept these terms. 
 I was surprised at that exceedingly, for various reasona 
 I was surprised that the Committee should put forth to 
 us that it was reasonable for us to accept terms only 
 equal to the amoimt which the Financial Company took 
 for bringing us out, that is, for relieving the old Shareholders 
 of the burden which was then looming up, this question of 
 governing and putting it upon us, charging us the modest 
 •sum of £1,500,000 for ±'500,000 stock. £500,000 was to 
 have been the commission of the Financial Company, but we 
 were told that it was insisted that £200,000 should be 
 returned. I was surprised that the committee should seem 
 so ready, as I humbly think, to stultify all their correspon- 
 dence. We have been asking for years a million, whicii, if 
 what you now tell us is correct, we must consider to be a 
 preposterous sum, because, if you accept £300,000 you have 
 been endeavouring to get an extortionate sum. I hold that 
 the Directors originally considered what they asked right ; 
 therefore, if you ask us to take £300,000 now you are giving 
 up the question. For these reasons, I was surprised at the 
 announcemeat that was made. Let us now look at the pro- 
 position. Let us try to make a debtor and creditor account 
 
 ill 
 
47 
 
 of it, First, what are we giving up, what are we losing ? 
 First of all we lose our territory. Let me remind you that 
 that territory was put forth in the prospectus, less than six 
 years ago, as a great bait for us. The trade was spoken of 
 as worth 4 per cent. But what is a trading Company 
 making 4 per cent ? It was the ulterior benefit to which 
 we were to look — a vast territory. I do not want to take up 
 your time by referring to this matter, but I presume you 
 have read the prospectus. Well, you give up that territory 
 and all that it involves, and, secondly, you give up your 
 exclusive trade. What was the opinion of the old Company 
 when they contested for years, even to slaughter and blood, 
 an intrusion upon their absolute trade ? Their opinion was 
 that you had better give up the trade if you have not absolute 
 and exclusive trade. ( "No.") Then you give up your Oregon 
 question, I apprehend. Well, now, if you are so treated by our 
 own Government, what are we to expect from America ? If 
 our whole territory is only worth £300,000 what can we ask 
 from America ? Then, lastly, you give up the charter, that 
 which is a bye- word, a name for all permanence and all 
 stability for inviolability on the part of the grantor, and 
 indefeasibility and security on the part of the grantee. 
 Those are the things that you are asked to give up. 
 Well, what do you get ? You get £300,000, and you get 
 the privilege of being taxed. Look how it is put by your 
 own Committee — £20,000 a-year on imports. Now, I think 
 the history of Canada is such as to show that she is not the 
 most merciful taxer in the world. What is to prevent her 
 raising her tariff? She will squeeze us out; she will not 
 allow an imperium in imperio. The tariff will, no doubt, be 
 doubled. What is the history of the past ? What is the 
 history of this transaction ? Can we have any confidence ? 
 Will our property be worth much under the pressure of a 
 government that is trying to filch from us all we have ? We 
 
48 
 
 II 
 
 i O 
 
 are to get £300,000, or £16,000 a-year, and Canada is to get 
 instantly £20,000 a-year. Then there is another important 
 question : I should like to know whether the factors who are 
 entitled to 40 per cent, of the trade profits, are entitled to 
 their proportion of this money, which would be £120,000 ? 
 It may bo said that they have no rights ; are we sure that 
 they have not ? Will they sit down to be taxed without 
 trying the question P I am not saying that these are argu- 
 ments for rejection, though I believe they are, but they are 
 at least arguments for decent delay. How does Canada 
 approach the subject ? Why, by disputing our right, and 
 throwing dirt not only at us, but at the British Govern- 
 ment. Our charter is 200 years old ; it was never forfeited, 
 and has never been disputed, except by our envious neigh- 
 bours. I say it ought not to be so treated, and I am sur- 
 prised, — I venture to say it with all respect, — that Ijord 
 Granville shoidd take the position he has done. I ask with 
 all respect, and I would ask it were he in the chair, by what 
 right does the Colonial Minister venture upon this topic 
 with us ? Is it as an arbitrator ? An arbitrator must be 
 impartial. He is not impartial ; he cannot be ; he woidd be if 
 1 could. He has got two objects; he wants to conciliate 
 Canada, and he holds out the strongest inducement in the 
 world ; he wants to avoid a collision with America, that great 
 country which ought to be our ally, and I believe will be, if no 
 errors arise on the part of Canada. Why, in a war with 
 America, £100,000,000 would soon be gone, and they offer to 
 avert that at the price of a single iron-clad. I say that the 
 Imperial Government is bound to give us something. She 
 is bound in her own honour to respect the deeds of a 
 sovereign. I do not hesitate to say that I would infinitely 
 rather go before the Judicial Committee. I believe that 
 such men as Lord Hatherley, Lord Cairns, and Lord Chief 
 Justice Cockbum will see that right is done, not for us, not 
 
 
49 
 
 It 
 it 
 
 
 for themselves, but for the honour of England. Tlioy will 
 say, " You are not to appear before the nation as a repudiator, 
 as a confiscator, as a tearer up of treaties." It was an impu- 
 tation against some persons mentioned in the Now Testament, 
 that they were disregarders of treaties. We talk of repu- 
 diation by Spain, and other countries ; that, however, is 
 against strangers generally, but here the repudiation and 
 confiscation are by the Government against her own 
 children. I cannot believe it for a moment. I believe if 
 you had Sir Roundell Palmer to advocate this matter you 
 would soon get it set right. I believe that a simple state- 
 ment of the few facts that I have put before you, would 
 carry conviction to any impartial mind, and I say that we 
 are not in the position to accept these terms. One other 
 thing I may be permitted to say. I do not think it is usual 
 in matters of business to be asked whether you will take a 
 given sum until it is offered. I think we ought to have 
 known that Canada would give it. She has all the benefit 
 of this discussion. If there had been any half-heartedness 
 would she not have known it ? My name is on the Com- 
 mittee,, but I would rather not serve. I simply ask in the 
 interest of the Company, for the credit of the Committee, and 
 for the honour of the English Government, that there should 
 be a decent delay, say six weeks, in order to enable u% to 
 look into the question. 
 
 Mr. "White : Mr. Chairnitm, I assure you that if you 
 have not a representative of the Canadian Government before 
 you, you have a representative of John Bull. My sole desire 
 is, if possible, that we may come to a decision which shall be 
 for the benefit of the Proprietors of the Hudson's Bay Com- 
 pany, and I hope of the country generally. I am not at all 
 surprised to hear the remarks that have been made. When 
 we have our money filched from our pockets in the way this 
 is to be done we must feel warm ; and if gentlemen do 
 
 D 
 
60 
 
 express themselves a little warmly, I hope you will forgfive 
 them. T must confess there is one gentleman who did speuk 
 severely, but I think he did not mean it against those who 
 conduct our affairs. Now I am an old Proprietor of the 
 Hudson's Bay Company, and I toll you most candidly I 
 came into this concern in 18G3 because of the respectability 
 of the names. I sold you, gentlemen, property for i!300 and 
 I bought it back for £400. Therefore you may suppose 
 that in any remarks I have to make I can have no motive 
 but a desire for the benefit of the Hudson's Bay Company. 
 I am quite sure that our territory contains some of the finest 
 country in the world. Lord Milton told me that there were 
 forty millions of acres just round that spot which you will 
 see marked on the map, as good as any land in Yorkshire, 
 and I said, " We will sell it for a shilling an acre." I must 
 confess that I expected whenever we did part with it that we 
 should get a million. But I think now that is impossible, 
 and I am sorry for it. If I thought there was the Icanc 
 chance of our getting more for it I would stand by you and 
 take my chance, but my firm belief ^ Hat there is no such 
 chance. I find that this Meeting m ^ adjourned, and I 
 would leave it with the Chairman and the Directors to say 
 when it shall be adjourned to. But I wish you woidd 
 kindly explain to us those two articles — the first and the 
 second. It seems that the Hudson's Bay Company are to 
 surrender to Pier Majesty all the rights of government, 
 property, etc., in Rupert's Land, which are specified in the 
 31 st & 32nd Victoria, cap. 105, sec. 4, and also all similar 
 rights in any other parts of British North America not com- 
 prised in liupert's Land, Canada, or British Columbia. The 
 second is that Canada is to pay to the Company i'300,000 
 when Rupert's Land is transferred to the dominion of 
 Canada. I see one of the first geographers in the kingdom 
 here ; I have the honour of knowing him, for I have often 
 
 'I 1 
 
51 
 
 mot him at tho Geographical Society, and I should be glad 
 if he would kindly toll U8, for the information of tho Pro- 
 prietors, what part of Rupert's Land Canada is to have, and 
 wlmt part will bo left for ourselves. 
 
 Mr. Maunder : I beg to say, Mr. Chairman, that as by 
 relinquishing our right to the property we thereby depreciate 
 all the money invested there, which curries with it not 
 merely the amount invested, but also that which is attached 
 to it by the worth of the property, and the various 
 privileges connected with it, I suggest that you would 
 avoid all difficulties with regard to the future settlement ; 
 if Canada were to buy the (Company in its entirety, you 
 would p»*event all aftor-disputes. She should not only take 
 the telegraphs, but take tho stations, the goods in transitu, 
 and all our posts both here and there. This would prevent 
 all after-disputes and litigations, and then Canada could, on 
 her own account, originate a new Society on what conditions 
 she plea- d, and no doubt she would be able to raise 
 sufficient money to pay us without difficulty. Thus all 
 disputes would be at an end, and the Society would cease to 
 exist. I have merely thrown out this as the Meeting will 
 evidently be adjourned for the consideration of the Pro- 
 prietors before they assemble again. 
 
 A Siiareiioi.der: Will you tell us before the Meeting is 
 adjourned Avhat proportion the property that we bought 
 from Lord Selkirk for the hard sum of i 80,000, bears to 
 the total which we are now going to surrender for £300,000, 
 together with many other things. Perhaps, you will tell us 
 that at the next Adjourned Meeting, and what is the present 
 value of that £80,000 at 5 per cent, interest. 
 
 Mr. Maxwell : I hav« here a prospectus of the Inter- 
 national Financial Society, and I wish to ask the Chairman 
 whether the land named in this prospectus, as being owned 
 by the Company in British (Columbia, in Vancouver's Island 
 
 D 2 
 
«,>n*«(a>i^A-4>B»H*VHvr.»a 
 
 62 
 
 and Canada — I wisli to know whether that will be included 
 in the £300,000. I think it is a very important question. 
 
 The Chairman : Gentlemen, there are several questions 
 put to me which I will endeavour to answer. The question 
 which was put by the honourable gentleman who has just 
 sat down, has heep put, in another shape, by one or two 
 gentlemen previously, that is, what is included in this. 
 Now, you understand that in the first place there is what is 
 called Hupert's Land. Rupert's Land, as a whole, belongs 
 to the Hudson's Bay Company. There is also what is called 
 the North West Territory. That does not belong to the 
 Hudson's Bay Company, and never did, but we have, at 
 present, the right of trading there. "We do trade there. 
 Nobody else comes there, or hardly anybody, and practically, 
 as we have stations and posts there, that is in our hands. 
 Now, what is proposed by the terms of Lord Granville's 
 proposal is, that we should surrender to Her Majesty all our 
 possessions in Rupert's Land and all our possessions in what 
 is called the North Western Territory. But we do not 
 surrender anything that we have in Canada or anything in 
 British Columbia, nor do we surrender any claims we have 
 upon the American Government in respect of the Oregon 
 Territory and so forth, or Vancouver's Land. We do not 
 surrender anything there. Well, that is an answer to the 
 honourable gentleman who has just spoken, that we do not 
 give up our claims to ten square miles in Canada, and so 
 forth. All that remains. Now, with regard to Lord Selkirk's 
 property, I think the honourable Shareholder was in error 
 when he spoke of £80,000 in hard cash having been paid. 
 I understand that what wa? paid was certainly not 
 more than £37,000. What was given, was given in the 
 shape of Shares. I cannot give you the absolute details 
 of the transaction, but it was one that was a transaction 
 between Lord Selkirk and the Company, and that nom- 
 
 r 
 
 \ g 
 
53 
 
 ^' 
 
 inal sum of £80,000 was made up, to a great degree, by 
 some question of accumulation of interest in tlie accounts 
 between the Company and Lord Selkirk. I forget what 
 the precise proportion of Lord Selkirk's territory to the 
 other was. It is included in the Red River Settlement, but 
 some portion of that has been disposed of to other settlers, who 
 are actually located at Fort Gary. Another question has been 
 asked, I think, about the security that we should have for this 
 £300,000. A gentleman, who told us he was a member of 
 the legal profession, said there was a law-suit in every article. 
 I do not know whether we are afraid of law-suits or not, but 
 what you will understand is, that these terms are not put 
 down, nor are you asked to accept them as a legal document. 
 What you are asked to do is to accept these terms as the 
 basis of an arrangement which must ultimately be put into 
 a legal shape. Now, what will have to be done, really, to 
 give legal effect to anything that might be agreed upon, will 
 be this : that the Parliament of Canada must embody, in an 
 address to Her Majesty, the terms upon which they propose 
 Rupert's Land should be added to the dominion of Canada. 
 Those terms will have to be passed through the Parliament of 
 Canad , and submitted to and approved by Her Majesty. 
 We, on the other hand, are not in any way to come into 
 direct communication with Canada, but we deal with Her 
 Majesty's Government, and we are to surrender to Her 
 Majesty's Government, under such terms as we may agree 
 upon with them, and it will be necessary, therefore, that 
 what is done should be done in a legal form ; and Her 
 Majesty's Government, in whoso honesty, I presume, in spite 
 of what we say about the harshness of their dealing witli 
 us, we may, at all events, have perfect confidence, will be the 
 parties to see that the terms are carried out. Now, in regard 
 to security for the £300,000, I am in a position to inform 
 you, though it is not in these papers wliich are before 
 

 54 
 
 you, that Her Majesty's Government intend to guarantee 
 tho raising of that £300,000, and therefore the money 
 will certainly be raised on tho security of the British 
 Government, and there is no doubt whatever about the money 
 being forthcoming. As regards the possibility'' of Canada 
 thromng us over in this matter, you will observe that tho 
 resolution which is to be put only gives authority to the Direc- 
 tors to carry this arrangement through, provided the matter 
 is accepted by Canada within the next six months, and if 
 in any shape it fell through, it would of course come back to 
 you again. Of course somebody must begin. It is said 
 Canada will be free while we are asked to be bound, but thev 
 might say the same on the other side. I believe there is as 
 much reason on the one side as on the other to suppose that 
 there will be objections made to the term.s ; but the delegates, 
 the Canadian Ministers, have agreed to recommend these 
 terms to their Parliament, and the reason for pressing you to 
 give an early decision before the meeting of the Canad' ,n 
 Parliament, is not for the convenience of the delegates, about 
 which we should think very little indeed, but it is for the 
 purpose of getting the matter brought before the Parliament 
 of Canada at its opening, and not losing the chance of having 
 it brought before Parliament in proper time and shape, and 
 under circumstances likely to secure its reception. I do not 
 say that is to be an overriding consideration. I do not say 
 that if you require more time you ought, on account of that, 
 to hurry yourselves or to try to get the arrangenient over. 
 We do not wish to drive j'^ou into a corner in the matter 
 at all. I only put before you that you would be more 
 likely, if you are disposed to accept the terms — (" No, no.") 
 — if you are not, then the whole state of the case is altered. 
 If you were it would be more likely that you would get 
 the question satisfactorily arranged by dealing with it early, 
 than not. And, moreover, while these Canadian gentlemen 
 
 ^'f 
 
65 
 
 ' ' 
 
 4^ 
 
 [ 
 
 are here, it is easy to settle with them the details of the 
 arrangement. It was observed by the honourable and 
 learned gentleman, at the other end of the room, that there 
 was a law-suit in every one of these articles, and, as he said 
 truly, there are a great many blanks to be filled up and 
 things to be defined. Of course, what we ask you to do is 
 to give us authority to deal with these matters, so as to have 
 them clearly defined. And, I should tell you, that we have 
 already been in informal communication with the delegates, 
 since the receipt of these terms, and aave come to a pro- 
 visional understanding with them upon some of these points. 
 I heard one honourable Shareholder say, "It is cut and 
 dried." May I ask what you expect your Directors to do P 
 Do you expect them to come before you with a practical 
 proposal which they are able to explain, or to throw the 
 whole thing loose before you, and say, "Gentlemen, we 
 cannot give you any guidance in this matter." Of course, 
 if you like to say you have no confidence in the Directors, 
 and should wish to put the whole matter into the hands of 
 other persons, that is perfectly— ("No, no.") — I do not 
 suppose you do, but if you do not, surely you must allow 
 the Directors t ^ act as men of common sense and business 
 in these mattt s. Lord (iranville gave us these terms 
 which V *' with vou in saying want clearing up and 
 
 defining, au . t were to ' . ato this question of 
 
 the blanks. I m , nng to tell you what we have done in 
 regard to the blanks, in rogui I to the blanks in the 6th 
 Article — the amount to be puid n igard to the rateable 
 share of the survey expen- -we propose to fill up that 
 blank with a sum of "eigi.i. cents per acre," which was 
 thought a moderate amount. But T am bound also to tell you 
 of another understanding thu^ luve come to with regard 
 
 to that article, and that is an .lerstanding which we con- 
 sidered it was our duty, in the interests of the Company to 
 
II i 
 
 56 
 
 enforce; which was that we should insist that we should 
 reserve our right of making the claim, if we did not thiiiiv it 
 for our advantage to do so, for ten years after any block was 
 set out, so that it should not be in their power to set out a 
 block and call upon us to make our claim, and then tax our 
 wild lands, which they might do unless other persons came 
 and took their share of the block. That is one thing we 
 have insisted upon, and points there are of that kind which 
 do not affect the basis of the arrangement, but woald 
 materially bear upon the details which, if we have your 
 confidence and are allowed to deal with as men of business, 
 we should endeavour to settle before the Canadian Ministers 
 sail. So with regard to the blank in the 4th Article — the 
 size of the blocks in the Red River Territorv. We have 
 made out, with the assistance of one of the chief factors hore 
 present, an accurate list of all stations which we think we 
 shall require, and the amount of acreage we shall further 
 require around them. We are proposing to agree with the 
 Canadian Delegates as to those precise blocks and the actual 
 amount of land round each of them, so that there may be no 
 disappointment Hereafter. There are matters of detail which 
 it is absolutely impossible to discuss at a meeting of the 
 Shareholders ; if we attempted to do so it wovdd take from 
 now till 12 o'clock. 
 
 A Shareholder : What is the purp( se of these blocks ? 
 
 The Chairman : I will explain in a moment. We have, 
 as the Shareholders are aware, certain stations. These 
 stations are of importance to us for carrying on our 
 trade. They are the depots, the head quarters of our fur 
 trade ; and it is necessary not only to have a station with a 
 number of buildings, but you want land about that station, 
 in order to grow corn for your people, in order to pasture 
 your cattle, and to get whatever may be necessary. And you 
 will observe that, although that is the primary object of 
 
 m 
 
 \ < / 
 
1 
 
 m 
 
 
 67 
 
 retaining blocks, in many cases it may turn out that these 
 blocks may be of value in case of a settlement being formed 
 about these stations. Thai is an object that we have in 
 view. With regard to another point that was questioned, 
 an honourable I'roprietor said he thought that the whole 
 thing turned upon Article 9, and he wished to know whether 
 we could not alter Article 9. Now Article 9, I am free to 
 tell him, has been the one great difficulty we have had all 
 through, and I agree with him that it is an important 
 question, " Can you, or can you not, protect your trade P" 
 Because, supposing, for a moment, you can make satisfactory 
 provision in regard to the trade, it is a very much easier 
 matter to come to a settlement with regard to the land. I 
 heard an observation made just now that, because we have 
 been asking a million all through, and now were recom- 
 mending you to take £300,000, we must be grossly foolish 
 now, or must have been grossly extortionate then. I beg to 
 observe that that is not at all the true state of the case. In 
 these proposals to the Government, we asked for a million, 
 to be paid by instalment, so much per acre, as it was sold, 
 spreading over fifty years ; and I ask anybody whether 
 £300,000 down is not worth a great deal more than a million 
 to be got in that way. Of course it is. With regard to 
 what is really important — our trade — the question is, " What 
 security can you make in order to secure yourselves in 
 the enjoyment of your trade. Now, the Directors have 
 fought very hard all through this to get an agreement that 
 the trade shall not be taxed ; that no duties shall be laid 
 upon imports. That it is impossible to get. It is all very 
 well to say " Ah," and that may be a reason with you for 
 rejecting the terms, but let me assure you most solemnly 
 that whatever you get, whatever alteration it were possible 
 to get, you will not get that, because, in the first place, 
 Canada most naturally objects, as any government would, 
 
68 
 
 to say, ** We will bind ourselves never to lay import duties 
 upon your particiJar goods." In the next place the home 
 Government have always steadily refused to recommend 
 that, therefore you may depend upon it you will not get any 
 pledge of that sort. With regard to how far your trade 
 will be affected, that is another question ; you will have, at 
 all events, the security of the Government which is to be 
 established there ; you will have their pledge under the 
 authority of the Imperial Government that you shall carry 
 on your trade without let or hindrance, and that you shall 
 not be exceptionally taxed. That is a great point. It is 
 very true that they might wish to raise their tariff from 15 
 per cent., which it is at present, to 30 per cent, or 50 per 
 cent,, but if they do it they must do it for the whole 
 country, and not only will your imports be taxed but 
 other imports also. But bear in mind what is the interest 
 of Canada ; the policy of Canada. Canada is competing 
 with the United States. She has great disadvantages 
 in competing with the United States, but she has one 
 advantage which she clings to, that her taxation is 
 lighter than that of the United States, and she, for her 
 own interest, in accordance with her own policy, is pretty 
 sure to keep a low rate of duties. With regard to this 
 taxation, remember two things. In the first place it 
 won't be money altogether thrown away, because you 
 will get something in return for it. You will get the 
 country governed ; get it opened for you, and if you do not 
 get Canada to do it you must do it for yourselves. Very 
 well, if you are to do it for yourselves, you may say perhaps 
 you will be able to do it cheaper. I very much doubt 
 whether you would be able to do so. You must not take 
 the expense that the Government has been in quiet times 
 gODO by as a measure of the expense which it will be when 
 the country begins to be settled, and the boundary question 
 
 > ( 
 
 t' 
 
o9 
 
 
 arises. You may depend upon it you would be put to heavy 
 expense in governing the country, and you must set this 
 against the other. Then there is another observation which 
 I made in my opening remarks, which is, that it is not the 
 question whether you can choose whether you will or will 
 not be subject to this taxation, because if you are to be 
 under Her Majesty's Government as a Crown Colony, or 
 under Canada as a part of the colony of Canada, whether 
 your rights to your land are or are not aflBrmed, you will be 
 liable to be subjected to all import duties ; and though I am 
 certain that justice will be done by any Judicial Committee, 
 and by the Government, and by Parliament, justice will only 
 demand that you should be confirmed in the right to your 
 own land; but it will not demand that you should be 
 exempted from any customs duties that may be laid upon 
 the country by the Sovereign of the country ; therefore, you 
 may depend upon it it is not a question which you have 
 open to you to consider whether you will get out of the 
 taxation if any settled government is established. I think 
 I have spoken upon almost all the points. There was one 
 question asked which it is, I think, premature to inquire, 
 which is " What are we to do with the £300,000 when we 
 get it?" All I can say is, if the matter is settled— if the 
 Shareholders end by taking this, and an agreement is made, 
 of course we shall come forward and make a proposal to 
 them, but I am sure they see it would be premature at the 
 present moment to enter into that. I think I have answered 
 all the questions that were put to me. 
 
 A Shareholdbk : There is one omitted, that is, whether 
 the factors are entitled to any portion of this £300,000. 
 Some time ago, when a discussion was raised, it was stated 
 that the factors were entitled to 40 per cent., and the ques- 
 tion is whether they are entitled to that proportion of any 
 purchase- money . 
 
60 
 
 The Chairman : The factors are entitled to 40 per cent, of 
 the profits of the fur trade. 
 
 A Shakeholder : It has been decided by legal authority 
 that they are entitled to 40 per cent, upon the improved 
 value of this very house. 
 
 The Chairman : This house is part of the fur trade. 
 
 A Shareholder : The question is whether they would be 
 entitled to a similar proportion of the value of the land. I 
 cannot see why they should. 
 
 Mr. Maynard, Solicitor : The rights of the factors are 
 limited to the 40 per cent, on the profits of the trade. The 
 reason why they were considered to be entitled to that pro- 
 portion, not of the value of the house itself, but of the 
 increased value of it was, that this house has always been in 
 the balance-sheet of the fur trade, therefore the increase in 
 the value of the house being a part of the fur trade it was 
 considered to be a part of the profits in which they were 
 entitled to participate, but they have no interest whatever in 
 the land, and any increase in the value of the land is a 
 matter in which they have no concern whatever. They can 
 in no case be entitled to any share of the £300,000. 
 
 The Chairman : If there are any more quest: ons to be 
 asked, we shall be glad to answer them. 
 
 Mr. Eley : With reference to the answer gi^en by Mr. 
 Maynard, I wish to ask a question — Whether by any action 
 that we may take in the disposal of our property, whether if 
 in consequence of that customs dues are imposed upon our 
 imports into the Hudson's Bay territory, and therefore the 
 net profit to which these factors have a claim of 40 per cent, 
 is reduced ; whether in consequence of that the factors would 
 not have an equitable claim, which would be recognised by 
 the Court of Chancery. 
 
 Mr. Maynard : I have no difficulty whatever in saying 
 that the only profits which they are entitled to participate in 
 
 ■< i > 
 
..^ 
 
 V>1 
 
 are the profits which this Company, upon their balance-sheet 
 every year, may show to have been produced by carrying on 
 the trade. They have no right to interfere in the mode in 
 which business is conducted, whether duties are paid or not 
 — that is, they must take their chance, as every other trader 
 must. They would only be entitled to participate in the net 
 results, whatever they might be. 
 
 A Shareholder: A question has been asked as to the 
 rights of these factors, and you have been requested to 
 answer it. Now, I state, as a legal man, that any opinion 
 that may be given is purely an opinion, and the only way in 
 which this question can be settled is in a court of law. 
 
 The Chairman: I must observe to the hon. Proprietor 
 that that is not a question, but an observation. I think now 
 we have fairly discussed the matter out, and that there are 
 no more points which we can very profitably discuss. Your 
 time is valuable, and it is important that you should Imow 
 what course we propose to pursue. I want to know what 
 the feeling of the Meeting is. We cannot be guided alto- 
 gether by the comparatively few gentlemen in this room 
 who have been able to speak. We have a very large meeting 
 and it would be impossible for every one to speak. Un- 
 doubtedly there seems to be a good deal of feeling on the 
 part of many members present that there should be an 
 adjournment. Now I would suggest that if we are 
 to have an adjournment, it should not be for so long a 
 time as that which has been proposed by Mr. Bonar. 
 I think a very much shorter adjournment would really 
 meet the case. If there is a wish to adjourn, I 
 think an adjournment for a week or ten days, or such time 
 as may really be thought necessary for gentlemen to think 
 over what has been said, and to come and confer with the 
 Directors, would be a reasonable thing. I may saj', for the 
 Directors, that we are perfectly ready to give any informa- 
 
62 
 
 tion and to answer any questions privutoly to any of the 
 Shareholders who may wish to come and confer with us. 
 Speaking for myself, I have no desire to be separated from 
 the rest of my colleagues. We have all acted in the most 
 perfect good faith and harmony. They have borne the heat 
 and burden of the day ; I have only come in at the end to 
 take the last part in this business that has boon going on for 
 many years ; but I know I may Sixy this for the Directors, 
 that they will be perfectly ready to discuss the matter with 
 any gentleman who may take an interest in it. I do not 
 think that any advantage would arise, I am bound to say it 
 honestly, from the appointment of a committee such as that 
 proposed, because, after all, it is a very difficult thing to 
 appoint a committee which would entirely represent the 
 feelings of those who ought to be represented. Numbers of 
 questions suggest themselves to the mind of one gentleman 
 or another, and it may or may not be the case that this 
 committee would put questions which would satisfy each 
 Proprietor. I think the better course would be that all who 
 have questions to put should come to us freely and confer 
 with us. I would suggest to Mr. Bonar, who has made this 
 motion in a very proper spirit, wishing to get plenty of 
 time and not to be driven into a corner, which I quite 
 agree with him it would be a hard thing to press, I 
 suggest to him that he should withdraw his amendment 
 in its present shape and that he should move that the 
 Meeting do now adjourn, and that a day be named to which 
 the adjournment should take place. Then we would agree 
 to that, and undertake to confer with the Shareholders, or 
 any of them who might wish to come to us for that purpose. 
 I will not undertake to propose a day. I should have 
 suggested this day week, or to-morrow week, if it was 
 thought desirable, but I will not attempt to force anything 
 upon the Meeting. I should like to know what is thought 
 
68 
 
 ^ I V 
 
 " 
 
 to be a convenient time. My own idea would be that thii 
 day week, or to-morrow week, would answer the purpose. 
 I only make that as a suggestion. W? all have the same 
 object in view — to do the best we can for the Company. 
 
 A SfiAREHOLDiiR : I sliuU be happy to second that 
 proposal. 
 
 Mr. Eley : Mr. Bonar has asked me to reply, ae he is 
 suffering from indisposition. Before we came to the deter- 
 mination of proposing the appointment of this Committee 
 we had several consultations, and the amendment is the 
 result of those consultations. I thmk the matter is really 
 80 serious, that it is of importance that it should be calmly 
 discussed. We shall not meet the Directors in any hostile 
 spirit, but we wish to have time for the consideration of the 
 various matters suggested to us. It will really be quite 
 impossible, within the compass of a week or a fortnight, to 
 do that which we wish to do. The gentlemen who are 
 proposed on this Committee, are well kjiown to you, at least 
 the majority of them. At any rate, we do not wish to with- 
 draw our amendment. We knew very well, of course, how 
 this would be met. We do not blame the Directors for their 
 suggestions, but we are prepared to meet them by saying 
 that we cannot withdraw our amendment. At the same 
 time, if you think for a moment that we are going to indulge 
 in any conduct that will be at all hostile to the Directors, 
 you are much mistaken. Mr. Bonar would not allow himself 
 to be a party to any such proceeding. You will bear in 
 mind that there is a portion of the amendment which gives 
 us instructions to send in our report, and we think it 
 necessary that you should have that report. 
 
 A Shareholder : I beg to express a hope that the recom- 
 mendation of our Chairman will be attended to, for two 
 reasons. First of all, a committee seems to be perfectly 
 unnecessary. Then, what further information can a com- 
 
«4 
 
 •--■^m^" 
 
 hiittee obtain, or can this Meeting obtain, than is given in 
 the voluminous correspondence that has been placed before 
 it, added to the very lucid statement from the chair ? The 
 Chairman, I am quite sure, has given us all the information 
 that it is in the power of any committee to obtain, 
 
 A SiiAREHoijJKR handed in a request that the IGth bye- 
 law should be read, declaring that no alteration should be 
 made in any of the bye-laws without the consent of two 
 meetings. 
 
 Mr. Maynard : This is not a proposition to alter a bye-law. 
 
 The Chairman : It is not proposed to do this at a single 
 meeting. It is proposed to have an adjournment — it is only 
 a question of time. 
 
 Mr. White : I am very desirous that we should come to 
 some arrangement. I beg to propose an adjournment for a 
 fortnight. 
 
 A Shareholder : I beg to second that. 
 
 The Chairman : It has been proposed that this Meeting 
 be adjourned to Thursday, the 6th of May. To that an 
 amendment has been proposed by ]\rr. White, that the 
 adjournment be to this day fortnight. 
 
 Mr. Eley : Does this amendment get rid of the appoint- 
 ment of the Committee ? 
 
 The Chairman : The appointment of the Committee 
 must clearly form the subject of a separate resolution ; that 
 will be put afterwards. The first question is as to the 
 adjournment. 
 
 A show of hands was then taken, and the Chairman 
 declared it to be in favour of the adjournment for a 
 fortnight. 
 
 The Chairman : (To Mr. Eley.) Do you propose to move 
 the appointment of a committee P 
 
 Mr. Eley : No ; we cannot do our duty and send in a 
 report in a fortnight. 
 
"'IB^' 
 
 06 
 
 A Sharkholdkr : I beg to propose the be«t thanks of the 
 meeting to the Chairman, for the manner in which he has 
 conducted the business of the meeting. 
 
 A 8HAKEH01 t)KR : I second the proposition. 
 
 The Resolutio ^ was unanimously agreed to. 
 
 The Meeting was adjourned to Wednesday, April 7th. 
 
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