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I had hoped not to have addressed the House on this question. 1 had hoped that we should have reached a division half-anhour ago ; but, after the speech of the hon . gentleman who has just eat down, I find myself compelled to make a remark or two ; and, as 1 have risen to my feet, I may possibly venture to ask the indulgence of the House while 1 enter into the question which has been already discussed at some length. The hon. gentleman who has just sat down is laboring under a complete delusion. He begins by identifying in many respects the Liberal- Conservative party here with the Tory party in England, and he is also under a historical mistake in supposing that all th - oppression he deplores as having been dealt out to Irelano was dealt out to it by the Tory party, because the Whig party, which I suppose he would identify himself with, was in power in England at the time most of the Coercion Acts were passed. I rather think that the speech of the hon. gentleman, and indeed, if I may be bold enough to say so, many of the speeches which have been made on this question, seem to me to show a complete misapprehension of what is the disease from which Ireland suffers. Hon. gen- tlemen seem to think that if a Home Rule Bill were passed, morrow , you YV«uM iu^vja-lher^.tji© Bftme^unc^bQi;/ .of tenants 56154 r as exist to^ay, you would have about the same number of landlords. By merely passing a Home Rule Bill, you could not execute a transformation scene, and change the whole political and social condition of Ireland. Does any man suppose that the mere fact of having Home Rule would make the peasant who is now discontented, con- tented, would make the peasant who now thinks ho ought not to pay his rent, pay it ? Mr. MILLS. Yes. Mr. DAVIN. My hon. friend from Bothwell says yes ; but I notice that when my hon. friend saysyod to anything, it generally turns out that facts do not justify his affirma- tion. The disease in Ireland is a complicated one. It is inherited from successive confiscations ; it js inherited from a state of things by which men, different in religion, differ- ent in race and different in social instincts, were placed by an unhappy fate to govern a country, a large portion of the population divided from them by this triple wall, and, if the condition of Ireland is to be dealt with in such a way as to make that country peaceful, as to make it happy, as to make it prosperous, then you must go deeper into the evils than by merely passing a Home Rule measure. I think it is not undee-irable to make remarks like these, because it is hardly creditable to this Dominion of Canada, and to a great Par- liament such as this, a Parliament which my hon. friend the member for Simcoe (Mr McCarthy) very properly described as the first Parliament after the Imperial Parlia- ment itself, it is not creditable that we should discuss a vj[uestion like this large Irish question and not go deeper than the surfuc3, and think, like people orating in a debating society, that, by pessing a measure like this, all the ills that afflict Ireland would be swept away. I am of opinion that it is desirable that a measure of local self- government should be given to Ireland, but I think, before any local self-government is given to the country, the Im- perial Parliament should pass such measures as would help to get rid of the real causes of the discontent, because, if it be left to the local government — supposing you had a con- stitution there which would leave it to the local government to deal with these evils between landlord and tenant, of which we hear so much — then I am afraid that there would not be that measure of justice dealt out to the one side which would be desirable. The-^Dfore, it would be, in my opinion, very improp,er.tp.p&esa,flame Bote a^easure, unless you also have J^ flaqa^ura flpaiii3g{wjlh ^e'l^id. A compre- hensive measaiJe*di6alJtig 'wi^h •th'o* haUd 'Shftuld accompany any measure. ©^.^Loijad RtUej a«d, ofiLSDjii^^.i t&ijik that any • • ;•••'• :: : •*'.••• ; :.:: •'.'•; . ..: •.• : . :..:*..*•-• \ ^ lC 8 \ ^ measure which should bo passed, dealing with Home Rule, ought carefully to guard the rights and liberties of the minority, so that when we are asked to send a message across the water to havo a Home Eule measure passed, we are asking a thing to be done that is corapiicuted, difficult, onerous, and requiring the greatest reflection and oaro. H.ou8e returned adjourned debate on the proposed resolu- tion of Mr. Curran (p. 46) on the subject ot Home Rule for Ireland, the propoised motion of Mr. McNeill (p. 55) in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of Mr. McCarthy (p. 98; in amendment to the said amendment. Mr. DAVIN. Mr. Speaker ; It is with groat unwillingness that I intrude myself on the House on any question not connected with North- West affairs ; but there are a number of hon. gentlemen listening to me who will easily under- stand that when a question like this comes before the House. I having taken a deep interest in the general question to which it belongs it would be very hard, and would cause some misunderstanding, if 1 did not express my opinion upon it; and, therefore, I will crave the indulgence of hon. gentlemen while I make a few remarks on the resolution and the amendments thereto now before the House. When ". rose, Sir, on Friday night, 1 was led to speak on a topic ."aised by the hon. member for Missisquoi (Mr. Clayes), who, aeserting that the Tory party in England had dealt out nothing but cruelty to Ireland, gave the House the idea that all the Coercion Acts passed were passed by the Tory party. I knew that that was not the case, and, on the impulse of the moment, I questioned it. I have since analysed the Coercion Acts passed since the year 1800, and I find that in that period the number passed by the Liberal party nearly double the number Eassed by the Tory parly ; and I may say this, that the enefioent legislation of Mr. Gladstone, with regard to the land, was anticipated by Mr. Disraeli in 1852, when he laid pldns on the Table of the House embodying the recommen- dations of the Devon Commission ; and one of th« most use- ful measures passed in regard to Ireland was Lord Ash- bourne's Act, under which something like $5,000,000 has been lent to the people of Ireland, as much more is about to be lent, and there are applications for as much again. The House is aware that Lord Ashboure was Mr. Disraeli's Attorney General. So the hon. member for Missisquoi may feel a little moie charitable towards the Conservative or Tory party, either in Canada or in England. In fact. Sir, the most liberal-minded Minister that ever led the House of Commons in England, the man who had the most * ^M enlightened views of Ireland, the man who, if ho had had hie way would, I believe, have settled the Iriah question somethirf? like eighty-seven years ago, was Mr. Pitt. Now, Sir, during this debate we have had many able speeches, and two rems^kable speeches: I allude to the very able Bpeech of thehon. loader of the Opposition, and the cold, clear, logical utterance of ray hon. friend the member for North Si mcoo (M.r. McCarthy). But, Sir, I should like to call the attention of the House to what I was about to point out on Friday night, the fact that there are diflSoulties in Ireland with which, to deal effectively, will require yearfi, and more than one, probably more than two or three Acts of Parliament. At the same time, in the sense in which the word grievances has been used from the time of the first protest against Poyuing's Law to the time of O'Connell's agitation for Catholic Emancipation, and from that time to the time of Mr. Gladstone's legislation, there is no such thing at present in Ireland. At the present time in Ireland there is not a vestige of disability ; yet how comes it that we have agrarian crimes ? How comes it that the people are discontented ? Prom the time of Strongbow and Fitzstephen tho Irish Celt has fought in one fafcthion or another with the powerful intruders for the land, and tho&e who were not and are not Celts, but Celti- cised, have aken up the struggle in the same spirit. When the Norman went into Ireland he found him there in the agrarian partnership of tho clan, and that sense of property of dubious value still lingers in the mind of the Irish peasant. When we read in Irish history of chiefs and leading men having been forced to transplant and move westward, the reader generally thinks, probably, that the leading man only felt the sense of dispossession. The fact is that all his followers felt that they too were dis- possef-sed. 1 will call tho attention of the House for a moment to the language of Mr. Froude, because it is tho language of a man who writes very adversely of Ireland, but still the language of a very well-informed historian. Speaking of an opportunity for Wentwoith, Charles I's great Minister, to do a little plundering, he says : " The state of tenures created an opporiunity. The CommisBion was appointed to survey the lands, and to trace and enquire into the titles of their professing owners In strict construction, four-fifths of Oon- naught was found lo belong to the Crown ; and Wentworth meditated taking advantage of the situation to make a new plantation. The intention, scarcely concealed, following so soon on the confiscation of the SIX counties, flung the Irish of the old blood into a frenzy of rage Religious indulgence might satisfy the Anglo-Xorman Catholics of the old settlements. The passions of the true Irishman were lor the land, and he saw the land in large slices passing away from him to the stranger. What to him was King or Parliament, Oalvamsm, or Anglicanism. The < ■ i t - MiMMtMHlMIMni tm r 1 ^ one fact, to which all else was nothing, was coming home to his heart, that the Engliahman, by force or fraud, was filching from him the inherit- ance of his fathers." And if we turn to pa^e 217 of the first volume of Mr. Froude, we find him writing ai followH : — " When the State soM lands to raise money, or allowed men to eel to one another, it became necessarily more indulgent to ne gleet. Bat if, on the one hand, London speculators, or Grown favorite s. could not be prevented from acquiring large estates in Ireland, oi the other, the entire object of the confiscation was defeated if the population were left unahepherded ; or if, for the landlords' convenience, the sons and grandsons of ihe oM owners were left in possession as tenants retaining their local influence, still, to all intents and purposes, the practical rulers ; and of the conquest, no result was left but the annual exaspera- tion of the returning rent-day, A.n ownership, which consisted merely in robbing a poor country of a percentage of the fruits of its industry, was no benefit but a curse ; and, although it might have been impos- sible to revive the laws of Henry VHI, a wise settlement of Ire- land would have included a tax so heavy on all rents sent oat of the kingdom, as would have compelled proprietors to sell their lands to others who would make their estates tneir own." The first quotation refers to the time of Charles I, and the Pocond to the time of the Revolution ; but this state of thiniTs was g^oing on all the time, and the tradition of it has lingered in the minds of the people, a people of great longevity and tenacious of tradition. Cromwell's war was followed by the war of William. William was an enlightened statesman who desired to carry on that war with as much conHideration as possible, and if the aBcendancy party in the Irish Parliamont had allowed him he would, at a later time, have dealt out a beneficent policy ; but although he was strong and victorious, he was unable to carry out the stipulations of the Treaty of Limerick and the result of the violation of that treaty was that the Celtic gentry went over to France and 8pain and the armies of the continent, and won, and their descendants have won, the very highest places in diplomacy and in the career of arms. The great French general, whose name is so dear to France, Marshal McMahon, is the descendant of one of these men who thus went out of the country after that unhappy transaction ; and I remember — a uO it will probably interest those gentle- men from Lower t'anada whom I see around me, to learn — that when, du'-lng the Franco-Germanic war, I had the pleasure of seeing Marshal McMahon, his face strongly reminded me of the face of an Irish gentleman. He had all the facial characteristics of an Irishman. The result was that the more Celtic portion of the people were deprived of their natural leaders. The legislation of Mr. Gladstone, as I have said, was beneficent legislation, but it must be con- fessed that it has not had a chance. When that legislation was passed, as much was given to Ireland as some of her iiimm wi M B wiiJm- w u J iw iin Btrongest friends who had fought unselfishly for that ooun* try hud hoped for ; and if that legislation had had a chanoe, if the people had, under it, set about their work with pati- ence, industry, and steadiness, if they had availed them- selves of an instrument, which, I believe, they had, under these Acts, to become landed proprietors, there is not the slightest doubt that there would be a very much more prosperous state of things in Ireland than exists at present. But if the statistics are looked at, it will be found a great mistake to suppose that Ireland has receded. On the contrary, she has, and is progressing. Although she has had some bad years, there is no doubt that in the past quarter of a century she has made steady progress ; but on the heels of the Gladstone legislation, what happened ? There sprang up another agitation, as the result of which the people are being educated into carrying on a kind of war ; they are befng educated to make struggling and agitating a necessity to their existence; and if you were to give them H*" aie Eule, how do you suppose these people would become at once denuded of their habits, and settle down into ways of peaceful and quiet industry? So that, with regard to the agitation that is going on at present, it is desirable that it should be stopped by render- ing it unnpcessary. I said I am in favor of local government for Ireland — I mean a system of local government which would leave her connection with the Empire intact, and I believe that a local government which would give an oppor- tunity to her aspiring spirits to have the direction of their country's local affairs — a local government such as our Provinces have here—would, I believe, terminate this agita- tion. Nor would there be any difficulty in now ceding local government to Ireland. That government would have been granted to her long ago, if some of her leaders, who have brought themselves into prominence on this Home Rule question, had not used language that alarmed, not only Englishmen and Scotchmen, but the best friends of Ireland the world over. Had they shown themselves per- fectly loyal to the Empire in word and action, there is not an Englishman, from one end of England to the other, who would not have been ready to do all in his power to secure to Ireland local self government. Let me say one word about the schemes of independence that I sometimes see sketched. For dark decades Ireland's soil has been wet with blood and tears ; she has had a fearful baptism of sorrow for centuries, but no bloody era through which she has passed would be equal to the disastrous results that would follow any attempt to bring about independence in that country. What is meant by this phrase Home Eule ? — because my hon, friend ■*" who moved the motion did not explain to as either the meaningr of Home Rule or his plan. Is it meant that the people are to bo governed by their own repreaentativoH in the country to which they belong — in the country for which their forefathers fought and toiled, and in which their forefathers distinguished themselves? If so, Ireland has Homo fiule at present. I consider that Ireland is governed by a Parliament that is her own Parliament, as much as it is the Parliament of England or Scotland. I consider that the Empire belongs as much to Irishmen as it does to Englishmen or Scotchmen. England is an old country, do Is Ireland, so is Scotland, but the British Empire is but of yofiterday. Go back a couple of hundred years, and where is the Britii^h Empire? The British Empire has been built during the past two centuries by Irishmen, Sootchinen and Englishmen, and if you go to India and the battle-fiolds of the continent, you will find Irishmen fighting side by side with Englishmen and Scotchmen, and not distinguishing themselves loss than their brothers in arms. You will find them in every walk of life, active and fruitful — as states- men, as literary men, as barristers, as mechanics, as laborers. In every walk of life you find the Irishman doing his part in bv.ilding up the Empire during these two centuries. There is not a quarry from which a stone has been taken to build up that grandiose structure, where you will not find Irish- men working side by side with Englishmen and Scotch- men ; there is not a stone in the majestic edifice of the British Empire in which there is not the mark of an Irish chisel. The man who would try to make an Irishman feel that he is an alien in the British Empire is either an ignoramus or a scoundrel. Therefore, if you want Home Rule you cannot want it in contradistinction to alien rule, be- cause you have Home Rule already, and for that reason I prefer the phrase local government. Now, pursuing the line of thought that I was on a moment ago, let me take the words Celt and Saxon. I saw in a news- paper I was reading awhile ago the phrase " The Saxon must go." Why, if you were to go into Ireland at the present minute, and try to find out the Saxons in order to get rid of them, it would be a very diflScult piece of work ; it would be a piece of work very much like Shylock had to perform when he was told to take his pound of flesh ; it would be a very difficult job indeed, just as difficult a job as it would be if you were to go into England in order to get rid of the Celts in England. England is largely Celtic. Long before the recent infusions, England, as M.atthew Arnold points out, was largely Celtic ; and in Ireland, as Froude says, the races are so mixed— Saxon, Norman, Dane, and so on— that it is MMMWmwm*-—- very hard indeed to find a pure Celt. So there is no ethno- logioal base for those hatrodH that are sought to bo fanned as between Saxon and Celt. So early as the fourteenth century, there was a statute of Kilkenny passed forbidding Eng- lishmen, English settlers, that is, Norman settlers, to assume Irish names. Therefore, names are no guide. A name may show that a man must infallibly have other blood than that of a Colt in him — as for instance, wo have tho name of the disti • guished loader of the Opposition. That is not an Irish name i it is a Norman name. But many Irishmen who have Irish names, really Celtic names, are actually tho descendants of men who assumed those names and booamo, according to a Latin proverb, more Irish than the Irish themselves. Then, religion is no tost, although I saw that a late mayor of Dublin put out the banner " Faith and Fatherland." Of course, if that is pui mt. they ought to expel Mr. Parnell right away, and thoy will have to get rid of the Floods and the Grattans and the Curraus, and a great number of thoir distinguished men. But I want to emphasise this still more. Tipperary is supposed to be the most characteristi- cally Irish county in Ireland. What are the facts ? The fact is that Tipperary was colonised by Cromwell's Iron- sides. How are they Catholic to-day ? I will tell you. The miserable and abominable way in which the English Church was exploited — men taking orders in it and not doing any duties in connection therewith— left that county as it left other parts of Ireland, to the charge entirely of the more zealous Catholic priest, and the more zealous Catholic priest took an interest in education, and, in the course of two or three generations, the descendants of those Ironsides had lapsed into the faith against which their forefathers had fought so bitterly and so strenuously. Thus neither name nor religion will prove that a man is a Calt, and there is consequently no historical and no ethnological base for these unchristian, and I will say, unnational hatreds that I have seen advocated and expressed in various quar- ters. Therefore, on sentimental grounds, although that is the ground I find some people put it on, there is no reason whatever for granting a local Government or Home Rule to Irelana. Is there on practical grounds? Yes, Sir, on practical grounds it would be useful. I will give an instance to the House* There is a railway from Cork to Bandon. It is a little one-horse railway, something like a railway would be from Ottawa to Pembroke. I was assured by one of the promoters of that railway that it cost as much to get that railway Bill through the committees in London as it cost to build the line. That is a thing that ought to be got rid of. Can there be any I ^ ^Upgpjgm^!.' ».Vv objeotion to having an Assembly to deal with a matter like that in Ireland? BeHides. I think that, although the Im- perial Parliament is taking many measures for the devel opment of the muterittl rosourcoeof that country, a local As- sembly would have more lime to devote to those mutters. What a local Assembly could do was shown in Iho eighteenth century, when they hud a Purliumoni, ema-ciUaled indood, but still a local Puiliamont. In the middle of iho eighteenth century Ir^^land was a country of all but limitlt ss pustu o At the time of Arthur Young's visit, about a century fcgo: " A chanf^e hal set in. Yet he fouo'l one (jr^iss farm of ten thousand acres, ami nut a few sheep walks uf five or t\x tbuusaod acres It u important to note th^t it was nut natural adaulabihty whicli brouj^ht about thiH state of thinp;. On« cause was th« ncarcity of labor, come- quenton the incessant wa jf the seventeenth century. But there foUowc'l on the Treaty of Limerick three-quarters of a century of repojie Popula- tion increa3 of Oatholics lulled the Protestants into a lethargic conhdence Uomplaints at Ia: MBl Itt ry .-i' re [a very unsympathetic and very unstatesraanlike way of re- ' garning this question. I think, moreover, that the present situation, the present opportunity, emphasises the great loss which England and the Empire sustained — to say nothing of the great iosa the Conservative party in England sustained, in the death of Lord BeBconefield. They were keeping his Primrose Day a few days ago, and that is only another instance, to which I could aud hundreds, that you may build monuments to the prophets but you cannot catch their inspiration. Now, what is the meaning of our debat- ing this question heie to-day ? 1 believe it was not before cur constituents during the late election. What is the meaning of the Ontario Legislature discussing it ? What is the meaning of the Quebec Legislature discussing it ? What is the meaning of resolutions being passed in various assemblies, a large portion of those assemblies hardly car- ing one pin about Ireland ? The fact is— and that fact had better be faced, if we are to understand the situation, and if we are to assume that attitude which is wise under the circumstances — the fact is that the poor, despised, down-trodden Irish Celt of half a century ago has triumphed. Beaten on the battle-field now by more skilful forces, now by larger numbers, treated now cruelly and now a little kindly by England — if he had been treated as cruelly as some desired he might have been exterminated, and if he had been treated more kindly he might have been reconciled; but treated as he has been he has remained unreconciled, and meanwhile what has happened ? The battle has been trans- ferred from the battle-field to the cradle, and the pure and therefore fruitful Irish woman has conquered. The cradle has won, and there is now a greater Ireland here. A Cabinet Minister has used the phrase that you have not only outside Lxluain a greater Britain, bqt you have outside Ireland a greater Ireland ; and the significance of this debate, if it has any genuine significance that it is desirable we should lay to heart'— I am not talking about looking after a vote here and a vote there — the genuine significance of this debate lies in that fact. I want to know if there is any gen- eral mor.*^! that an earnest man can take from this debate. Sir, there is, and it is this : to see and acknowledge the fact that while hon. members dislike the question, while some would like to see it kicked from the floor of the House, nevertheless the question is discussed, although it does not belong in any way to our business. What is the meaning of this fact ? Its meaning is this : that this man that thirty, forty or fifty years ago was despised and trodden under foot, has become a power ; it means that he insists on being considered, aud that you have to consider him. Mr. Froade I !■■ i [ I 16 points out how the effort wh8 made from time to time to decelticise Iraland, and points out also that it always failed. At the time Lord John iluHHell's Encumbered Estates Bill was passed — a measure which though I do not say it was an unwise measure, was certainly, parsed at that particular time, a cruel and 8hort-8ight< d aot — nt that time J find that the London Times, the Thunderer, was writing about what that Act would do. it said this Act would giva yon S 'Otoh and English tenants instead of Irish tenants ; it would give you Scotch and Ergliah landlords instead of Irish land- lords, and in a few yeartJ a Celtic Irishman would be as rare in Connemara as on the banks of the Manhattan. They were going to decelticit-e Ireland by means of the law of supply and demand. I remember that in 1882 I had a conversation with one of the most eminent men of the United States, whom I met on a train, and who was then aspir'ng to a high office. He told me his plans for annexing Canada to the United States, and his chief plan was that ho had a mil- lionaire, a man of lilnglish manners, one who had lived largely on the continent of Europe, and he said, I am going to send him to Ottawa, as a sort of diplomatist, and my directions to him will be to out-dinner Kideau Hall— he must beat the Governor General hollow in the matter of dinners. I said to him : Are you going to annex five millions of people with a gridiron ? So these people were going to decelticise Ireland by the law of supply and demand. I need hardly say that experiment failed, and we are now face to face with 'he fact that we have, outside Ireland, a f eater Ireland u.cing a deep interest in her affairs, though am bound to say, not always a wise interest. But you must remember what I have shown you happened ; and remember also that laws existed almost within living memory which kept the people of Ireland in ignorance. Bemember all that, and remember too as this same eminent writer, Mr. Proude, lays down, you cannot, whether as a nation or an individual, commit a crime but you become a debtor — he puts it — a debtor to nature; I prefer to go higher than nature, and say that you become a debtor to the Power that rules this world, and the time will come sooner or later when the bill will have to be paid. Any such policy as was pursued towards Ireland would have been all right if you could have trammelled up the conse- quences. If the blow then given could have been the be-all and the end-all. But in these caues you teach bloody instructions which, being taught, return to plague the inventors, and by investigating and brooding on these wrongs, many of these wilder spirits in the United States have been inflamed. When I read what they say and n ' as a do I feel humiliatoJ us an Irinh'nan. But we must remember wliat were tho ciiuurasLances whicb ate respon- Bible lor this nmilt. And in ihis relation 1 believe it would be a good tbing to have a local A^Hembly, I believe it would be a good tiling to have a local Acsemblj thai wfmld irivo the Inwh people the exciiem«nt of local politic-*, and would heip lo develop the country. In that way 1 believe a blow would bo wtruck at an agitation which is eduouting tho rising generation iu Ireland lo be unlit for overythii'g like peaceful and induntrial life. Tho hon. Member for North 3iracoe t«aid ho wan making an unpopular speech. I do not know wbethor I have been making a popular or an uiipof)ular Hpeoch. I have not been aiming at making u popular or an unpopular spoeoh. 1 have often spoken to my countrymen on q^e^tlonH affecting Ireland, and they know well that I have never flattered them, for they kn- w that I lore them too ranch to flutter them. I prefer to tell thera iheir faults, and for my part I do not care <'ne Hlraw whether my Hpeo(!h is pofiiiiar or unpopular, provided 1 tell the truth. Ae the gieal Fiorontine says: *' Pur che uiia cosoi'^nza non mi garrii, Ohe alia tortuoa, come ruol, aoa pres'O." The meanintr of which in plain words is this, that provided 1 satir^fy my con^cit;nco, pruvnlod 1 have the nelf-approving hour, 1 care very little ; I think that it* above applause, and it iw a barrier against disapproval, la case tho amend- ment ishould not be carried, i will, should I have an oppor- tunity, preisent an araenUmont to the House that will ex- p^e^s more nearly my own views than eitner of the amend- ments now before it. •> Printed by MoIiSAN, Rogkr & Co., P»rliamentary Prioteis, Wellington Street, Ottawa. come Any have }onse- the loody the hese tates and • • • • • < • • • • • • • » • • » . • • ■ • > I • •. • . • • • • •• II • ' I • • 1 > • • •