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MICtOCOfY RESOIUTION TEST CHART 
 
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FIRST SESSION-TENTH PARLIAMENT 
 
 SPEF.CII 
 
 OP 
 
 ET. HON. SIR WILFIMD LAURIER, G.U.M.G^ 
 
 OH 
 
 PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT IN THE NORTH-WEST 
 
 air.-, 
 
 *>7/. 
 
 <?i 
 
 Mouse of Commons Bebates ^ 
 
 S«?i>« 
 
 IIOirSE OF COMMON'S. OTTAWA. TIKSDAY. FEBRUARY 21, 1905 
 
 Kt. Hon. Sir WIM'UID I.AUBIER ilTlme 
 Minister) moved for leave to lutroduce Bill 
 (No C!») to establish aud provide for tUe 
 covcrnnient of the inovince of Alberta. He 
 Mid • Mr. Speaker, the Bill which I have 
 now the honour to present is for the nd- 
 mlsslf^n of another member Into the Cana- 
 dian family of provinces. As the Hoiise. 
 no donbt. has noticed, this Bill is to be fol- 
 lowed Ininiediatoly by another for the s.auic 
 purpose, in relation to the province of Sas- 
 Untchewan. These two Bills arc intimately 
 connected ; they form part of the same 
 subject; and. by your leave, Sir, the ex- 
 planations whirh I shall hav,' the 1>'>"""'- '« 
 Klvo to the House, will apply to botli. Ihej 
 will npplv lil;ewirie to the resolutions winch 
 will be Introduced as the basis for the llnan- 
 clal clauses of these Bills. 
 
 It has been observed on the lloor of this 
 House as well as outside of this House, 
 that as the nineteenth century had been the 
 century of the United States, so the twen- 
 tieth century would be the century of Can- 
 Mla This opinion has not been deemed ex- 
 travagant. On this continent and across the 
 waters, it has been accepted as the state- 
 ment of a truth, beyond controversy, tue 
 wonderful development of the United States 
 during the space of scarcely more than one 
 hundred vears may well be an incitement 
 to our efforts and our ambition, 'ict \<> the 
 emulation of such an example tbore may well 
 Vt-l 
 
 be BOino exception tnlicn ; for It it be true 
 tliat settlement of the woslern portion 
 of the Aniprican union has been marked 
 by almost phPiininenai rapidity, It Is 
 ;iiso true that every other consider- 
 ation seems to have been sacrificed to this 
 one consideration of rapid growth. Little 
 attention was given, up to the last few 
 years, to tlu> materials which were Intro- 
 duced into the republic; little regard was paid 
 among the new settlors to the observance of 
 the law ; and It is not a slander upon our 
 neighbours — for, indeed, the fact is ad- 
 mitted In their current literature— that 
 frontier civiUzatiou was with them a by- 
 word for lawlessness. We have proceeded 
 upon different methods. We have been 
 satisfled with slower progress. Our institu- 
 tions In our own Northwest have been 
 ilevoloped by gradual stages, so as to ensure 
 at all llinos among these new communities 
 law and order, iind the restraints and safe- 
 ?u;u(ls of the highest civilization. 
 
 The time has iirrived when we are all 
 aareed, I iiolieve. ii:\y, I feel sme. upon both 
 sides of tiie House, that anotlier step, and 
 the last, Clin n.iw be taken to complete the 
 passage of the Northwest Territories from 
 what was once necessary tutelage, Into the 
 fulness of the rights which, under our con- 
 stitution, appertain to provinces. 
 
 I may remind the House, tlmugh the fad 
 is well 1-nown to every body, that when 
 
 ^fV. ;?3/^fl 
 
I'onfpdpriitioii wns r«tiilili>|H'<l in tin- yciir 
 1N)7, tln< CiiiiaUu of Uiat diij «as imi n't nil 
 wliiit JH tlio <.'tii>.ii(lu of the |iro!<oiit dii.v. Tlio 
 • 'lunula of that <lii.v il.il uot cxlciui "lnjoiiU 
 the wi'slnii lliiilt-i of tlio pruvliiic oC Onta- 
 rio. On ilic ollioi' slilo of the fintliu lit. on 
 Iho shores of the rai-illo ocean, tlirri' wa.s a 
 Iti'lti^li colony, Urili^h Coliiniliia. ali«olul<'l>' 
 i-iolateii; and Ix-twi'i ;i ltriil>;h (.'ulinnbhi on 
 oiii> siih' and Ontario on tho other side there 
 was a \a-l extent of terrltor.v, the fairest 
 |iorilon |ierlia|is of the conllnenl. uliieli wan 
 nnder ISrill.-h sovt reljrnty. but in wlileh 
 Itritlsh sovereicntv had iil«a.v« been dor- 
 mant, 'riial vast extent of the eonllnent, 
 the falii'si. as 1 said, mul the most fertile, 
 was adniiiiistered. loosely iidniinisiered by 
 the llnd?;oii Bay ("onipany, under a charter 
 wliii-li tlie comiiany cliiimed. cave her almost 
 Noverei;;n sw ay, and which she used to 
 kee|> this vast extent of country as a 
 close preserve for her Ininieiise" oporn- 
 tii>i;s In the fur trade. I need not tell 
 
 Mr. Ma. ken/le, iH'Inii then Trlme S!lnl«ter 
 of faiiail.i, intrixlueed Into tliii* IIouxc and 
 carried uiianiuioiisly a measure, n very 
 Important nieasuiM". the object of whlili. 
 ns he said himself, was to ghc to the 
 X.irlhwest 'IVrrlti>rles an ' cutrrcly Inde- 
 pendent u'o\ eminent.' This menmire haw 
 l)een the charter under wblch the Northwest 
 Territories liave come to tlioir present •tate 
 of manhood. It has uevi'r Ueoi^ repeale<l. 
 Additions ha\c been made to It from time 
 to time, but It bas remained and la to tills 
 day the rock upon whleU has been reared th.> 
 •tructiui'. which we are about to crown with 
 complele and absolute autonomy. !ty tliU 
 measure it was provided that a" I,Ieuteiiant 
 fiovernor should be appolnte<l for the Nortli- 
 west 'ferrltorles. The Lieutenant Governor 
 was to be vested with executive power, and 
 he was to administer that power with the 
 nsslstanee of a council to be composed of 
 Hve nienibers. the Lieutenant liovernor and 
 his advisers to l)c ap|ioInted by the (Jovj-rnor 
 In I'ouiicll. Apart from these admiuls- 
 
 ,Miu. ^':r. the fact is well known and pro 
 
 Milt to the i.ieinory of all. that it was the ,.„„. „.., 
 
 Intention of the fathers of confederation not | also invested with IniRp IcRlshitlve anili irltv 
 
 I trativc powers the Lieutenant tioveruor was 
 
 to limit it to tho comparatively narrow 
 bounds In which it was Included in ISO", but 
 to extend It eastward and westward between 
 the two oceans. 1 need hardly tell you, Sir, 
 the fact is known to all and well remember- 
 ed by every one, that provision was made In 
 the iiistrumeut of confederation Itself, for , 
 the admission into confederation of British ' 
 Columbia, Trlnce Edward Island, and even ! 
 Newfoundland, and especially for these ter- ' 
 rltories whiili at Inst have come in to-day as ! 
 part of the t'anadian family. In the very 
 first year of confederation," the very tirst 
 session of the tirst parliament-, resoiutious 
 were Introduced Into this House and adopted 
 unanimously for the acquisition of Uuperfs 
 Land and the Northwest Ter'-ilories. and 
 
 He could make laws for taxation, for local 
 aud municipal purposes, property and civil 
 rights, the administration of Justice, imblb- 
 health, police, roads, highways nud bridges— 
 generally all matters of n purely local and 
 private nature. There was also an enact- 
 ment 111 that measure to the effect that when 
 any district, not exceeding l.fKX) Ripinro 
 miles, contained n pnpulnthm of not less 
 than LOOO people of adult age, exclusive of 
 aliens and uiienfiaiichlse<l Indians. It wuld 
 be erectwl into an electoral district which 
 should thenceforwai-d be entitled to elect 
 a member to the council. There was 
 also an Important enactment with regard to 
 e<lucatlon, introducing Into that country 
 tlio system of separate schools In force In 
 
 ----- --•- - r , . . ^* """I >»"- i»^nn.-ui ui ?*c|mruie Hcnoois lu tore 
 
 Uie extinguishment therein of the title of the the province of Ontario, nut I shall 
 
 Hudson Bay Compan.v. This was nccom 
 pUshcd In a very short time, and as soon as 
 accomplished, the government of that day, 
 the government of Sir John Macdounid, pro- 
 ceeded to carve the new province of Mani- 
 toba out of the wilderness, and without any 
 preliminary Btage endowe<I it at once with 
 all the rights and privileges of a jiroviuce. 
 
 If we go back to tlie history of those days, 
 perhaps the opinion will not be unwarranted 
 that it would have been a wiser course, if 
 instead of bringing Manitoba at once into 
 the confederation full fledged aud fully 
 equipped as a province, that inalurily had 
 been readied by gradual stages extended 
 over a few years. If that course had been 
 adopted, perhaps some mistakes vsould have 
 been avoided from the effects of which we 
 have not yet completely recovered. 
 
 Very different was the course aud policy 
 of Mr. Mackenzie when he cams into offlec 
 with regard to the Northwest Territory. 
 Up to the year 1875 the Northwejt Terr'i- 
 'ories had been administered under no spe- 
 cial form of government. But in 1875 
 
 say 
 nothing at the present time of this Unportaut 
 part of the law of 187."), as I propose to coino 
 again to It at n later stage of the obser- 
 vations wblcb I desire to offer to the House. 
 This Act remained in force without any Im- 
 portant modiflcntiong up to the year 1880. 
 when the Territories were given representa- 
 tion in this parliament. Two years later 
 an Important step In advance was also taken 
 in their development, that Is to sny. In 1888. 
 The executive council was abolished, so far. 
 at all events, as Its powers of legislation 
 were coneerned, and a legislative assembly 
 was created, to be compised of twenty-flve 
 members, twenty-two of which were to bo 
 electe<l by the people and three to be 
 known as legal experts, to be appointed 
 by the Governor In Council ; and a new 
 executive council was to be appointed nnder 
 the name of advisory council to advise 
 the Lieutenant Governor upon all matters 
 of finance. In 1801 another step forward 
 was taken, and a very important one. The 
 legislative assembly of the Territories was 
 given additional i>owers ; and if rou take 
 
 //o9y 
 
f 
 
 wpction 02 of tlie nrltlnh North Amrrlca Act 
 niid coiiiimri' It witli tlie pjnrers which n-fn- 
 tlion Klvcn to the Ipgislaturo. you will fliiil 
 thnt that loKlslaturc wns InrcKtctl wlih 
 powom olmoHt uh coiii|)l(>li> nx thoM- whli h 
 lire veRtort in tho |irovliio<'* iiinlfr tho 
 Ilrillitli North America Ait. lu fact, 
 with tho rxcoption of linrrowliid iin'iit'.v 
 uioHt of the csHPiitinl iiowci-s wlildi are 
 now Riven to the provliiiTs wcro (.iven 
 to the leelMlatlvo a^scmlily of the North- 
 west TerrltorW.<. In 1N!»» aiiotlicr Ociinrl- 
 nre, another chatise, was maile — I call It n 
 lieporture. The cliaiiKe whW'i wan tlieii 
 luiide was not. in my estliiiatlon, <inlte In 
 accordniice wlih tlio (spirit of onr coiistl- 
 intlon. It was that tlii' legislative asseni- 
 lily could select four iiii'mlicrs of Its own 
 Iioily to l(e called an executive conmilttee 
 to advise the l.lenloiiaiit Oovernor. This Is 
 not. ag I sny, in nicordance with the iirln- 
 ciples of the llritlsh conalitulioii. It Is 
 not In nocordancc with the prlncl|ilcs of 
 Hrltlsh constitution thnt inirllnineiit Itself 
 >lionld elect the incinbers who are to ad- 
 vise the Crown. The pilnclple of the lir't 
 isli conslitntion Is that the Crown, or tin- 
 representative of the Crown selects, him- 
 self, his own advisers ; ami under our own 
 well known practice In these nio<lern ilajs, 
 the only restriction put Ujion the exccuilVe, 
 the Crown, or the sovereiBii. is that he ninst 
 select advisers who have the sup|iort of n 
 majority of the elected iHnIy. This new de- 
 liiM'lnre Introduced in the slatule of 1S!)4 
 did ii'it last lonjT, and at this I am not sur- 
 prised. In 1.S!>7 another and a llnal change 
 took place. In 1897 an Act was passed in this 
 House whereby it was i>rovided that there 
 «honld 1)0 an executive council to lie chosen 
 by tho Lieutenant Governor from the nieiu- ' 
 hers of the House, and practically having 
 the support of a majority of the elected 
 meniberg of the Icfcislature. This was In 
 fact the Inst and flnal concession and It 
 was the application of the principle of min- 
 isterial rcgpoDSlbiUty. This has been the 
 Inw ever since ; It Is the law to-day. So 
 thnt. Sir, It Is manifest that at this moment 
 the people of the Northwest Territories are 
 In the enjoyment and have been for several 
 years, not only of full mluisterlal lospon 
 siliility. not only of full constitutional gov- 
 ernnient. but also of a large measure of 
 loc;! aiitononiy. A great deal has been 
 done, in fact more has been done than we 
 have to do to-day. We have to take the 
 last step but it is easy and comparatively 
 unimportant In view of and In comparison 
 with what has already been acconipllsbetl. 
 The metal has been In the crucible and all 
 we have to do now. Is to put the stamp of 
 Canndinu nationality upou it. 
 
 The House Is aware that some two years 
 ago or therealiouts there came to u- a very 
 general desire from the Northwest Ter- 
 ritories for Immedtnte admlgslon Into the 
 oonfederatlon as provinces. I did not be- 
 lieve at the time for my part, that this re- 
 V4-» 
 
 n'le«f, ropcrlaMc (1* !i «;«, proi-eeded m 
 iiiucii fmni an acinal need as from a «cntl- 
 nicnt. Ir «ns to nn tin- expvexsion of ii 
 •Miiiniciit. a seiiiinieiit nm-i lionourable, n 
 sentiment mo«.; worthy liecaUNC It was an 
 exprcssli.u of the »e"lf n llance of young 
 anil iinil'ltliMis cMniiniinllii-s. The Mouse Is 
 also aware nf the answer which we gave 
 'o the Tciriliirlcs at tint time. We re- 
 prcsenicil III theiii that in i.iir .ludgmi-nt. the 
 time was lnopp<irliiiie fur lal.ing this (pies- 
 tlon Into parliaiiicnt, lljaf as we were on 
 Ihe eve of a gi 'unil <lo.ili)n, the tinio and 
 occasion wiinlil lie ninii- jMiipltiiins and 
 more titling after that event when 
 the Territories wmilil haM' Ihe licnelit on 
 this floor of a larger reiirescntallmi. Tliese 
 views weve gen. rally I'cccpied. The elec- 
 tions have taken iilace and iniincdlately af- 
 ter the eloeliiijis, or as sooi! as was pia<>tlc- 
 alile tlicreafter, we Invited the rxeeiillve 
 of the Northwest Territories to send del- 
 egates here to confi r with lis npim II en- 
 sure which was to be Infrudticeil mi as to 
 idmit them ito the cuiifcileration. We 
 iiave iiail ' ,elit of !!ie presence of Mr. 
 Manltal .,%■ rrenili r of llie Northwest 
 Terrltor and of Mr. linl.vea, one of his 
 iiilleag' .-. and «.> have had the ailvanlago 
 of several conl'crcnees wi:ii them. We 
 have liad the advanla^'c mImi of the pres- 
 ence and advice of several of the menilicrs 
 from the Territories, and now. Sir, It Is my 
 privilege and my honour- I deem it indeed 
 a privilege and an honour- to offer this lilll 
 to the House. 
 
 When we c.unc to c.)ns:der the problem 
 before us It lieeanie very soon aii|i;neiit 
 to me, at all events, that there were 
 four subjects whicii dDiiiinaled ail the 
 others ; that tho others were of cmipar- 
 atlvely minor Iniinntaiico, but that tin re 
 were four which I was sure the parlia- 
 ment of Canada and the Canadian peo- 
 ple at large might bo ixpeetcd to take 
 a deep Interest In. The lirt-t ■••as : How 
 many provinces should be adniitteu into 
 tho confederation coming from the North- 
 west Territories — one, or two or more 7 
 Tho next question was : in whom should 
 tie vested the ownership of the public lands? 
 The third question was : What should be 
 the tlnanclal terms to be granted to these 
 new provinces V And the fourth and not 
 the least important by any means was the 
 •luestion of the school system which would 
 he Introduced — not introduced because it was 
 introduced long ago, but should be con- 
 tinued in the Territories. 
 
 Now, .Sir. I will iiroceed to examiuc 
 one after the other, all these questions. 
 The llrst, as 1 have Just said is : 
 How many provlucos should be admit- 
 ted Into the confederation ? There Is con- 
 siderable variety, as everybody knows, In 
 the area of the different provinces of the 
 confederation. Prince Edward Island has 
 an area of L',18-1 miles. Nova Scotia 21,428 
 miles, New Brunswick I'T.l'So miles, Quebec 
 
.■;;.1.S7:i. Oiil.irln 'Jtio.viiJ. MMiiilolia 7:t.T:i-, 
 iiiiil lliitisli CnliiMiM.i ::T'J.i»".'>. i-r II lottil 
 nrcii f'lr tin' '•••\'-n \iin\\'\ir- nf riiiifedi'm- I 
 tloii iif l.lliM.m mill"' Niiu. Ilii- Ten II" ' 
 ilcB x\liirli iiri' t'liln.v iiiiili 1 111.' (iiritrol iiiiil , 
 Jiii'i-.cil.'ll..ii tif lli>> |ir-;i| I. uislnini-p li.iv<> j 
 i-X;lrll.v llic x.lliic !irr:l lis t!i:il i>f lllf s.'Vi-n ', 
 |>r(>vlli' ■•-" I'l' 111!' I>iiliilui"U. Till' l"l:il iiliM 1 
 ■ f tin- Hi'Vcii I'liiUlii i-i. li-i I silil a iiKiiiii'iil ; 
 ii^ii U l,U",i;'.il iiiiirs mill 111"' iiri'il of till' I 
 (lliri'l-iiit Irllil.'li' s i.- ilH l'i>ll'm< : 
 
 Mil.« 
 
 AislniliiiU t'*.'*T'J 
 
 SaBkatchiwa 107.611 
 
 .Mboria lol.ss;; 
 
 Atlialiiiska SJl.UHr. 
 
 Maiku'iulc 5t;2,lS2 
 
 TuIjI. 
 
 .1 u:.::: 
 
 Or, iiii iiri'ii 11 liiil- -iTiihM- 111 111 III'' Mial { 
 
 liri'il of lliP X'M'ii 1 ;-ipvin. r.- iif llif \'.i:u- 
 lllliiii. Xow, lis 1 liavr '-lit tlii'ii' N U 
 (ircat Miricly in tlii' '•'■y.<^ of imr I'l'i- 
 viiK'cs ; ill fad. it 1-. vrry iiiiii-li willi Hit- 
 ('niiailiaii C'oiifi'ili'ialloii as willi llio Aiiu'i'- 
 Ic.iii ViiioM. 'I'luii' iiii' 111 t!i>' Caiiailiaii 
 ('(•iifcdriatldii iii'in lull's nf iiiit'iitial s!/.fs ii.'» 
 tliiTi- art' In tlio .Vmoii.aii I'liloii slatis (if 
 uiii-ciilal sizi'K. It is iiol a ratal fault as lia.s 
 Ih'c.i proM'J liy the lilstmy of tlic Auu'iii."iii 
 Union, lint I "liolii'vc Uiat wlicii proviiiccs 
 art' not tlu' rt'.snlt of liislotlL- Iraililinn, wln'ii 
 tlii'y have not i mio to iis f.iiiiicil anil wlnu 
 weUiivc the ciuli-ol of tvont.s. it is li.ifir- 
 alile that the provliice.s should lie us near 
 as posslhle about the same .'l7.o. Thorcfoie, 
 it 1» iniposslbli' to suppose Mint this liu- 
 lueiise territorj of l.tl^.M" lullcs Hhould 
 he formed Into oue sinxto provlnej. Tluie 
 Im another ohjeitloii. The terrl'jrie.s are 
 naturally divided luto two portions from 
 the point of view of asrUulture, cUmiile, 
 nud productions generally, the northern 
 portion and the southern portion, and 1 
 would place the boundary of these two 
 sections a little south of the boundary 
 which now divides the provisional district 
 of Mackenzie from the provlslonnl district 
 of Athabaskn. This northern portion of 
 the continent ha.^ not yet been fully ex- 
 plored, but still we know cnousU of it, 
 there has been enoush exploration of it 
 and It has been travelled over sufficiently. 
 to make u.? sure that it Is absolutely tinllt 
 for aKriculture. The climate Is too cold 
 and the soil Is too poor. Ther<- are. how- 
 ever, very excellent and very promising In- 
 dications of nilnern , wealth In that dis- 
 trict. There are indications to-day of pe- 
 troleum, coal, gold, copper and other min- 
 erals, and perhaps some day we may have 
 In what is to-day a barren section, an- 
 other Yukon. Hut we know by the expe- 
 rience of the past that mineral wealth, 
 when not coupletl with agriculture, is but 
 a precarious ground on wli' -h to found the 
 hope of thick and permanent settlement. 
 Therefore, we put aside tMs northern sec- 
 
 lion : bill till' >i«iilliii!i sr.tl'in I» of an alt- 
 s'liili'ly ililT.i-. Ill I haiailcr. 
 
 Ml'. I(. I.. IIMUKKN. \\'i;;t iluei ili>'i;«ht 
 l.iiii. gciilli'inaii >y-'r Wilfrid l.aurltri refer 
 to ix.nll.v V 
 
 Ml Wll.ritlK I \l ItlKU. I woiiiadividi' 
 III' iwii M'l-tlims at iilMiiit llie lino which 
 ii'i.s ili\idi's the piMV isloiial dislrli't of Mar- 
 l>ciizii' and till' pi .\ i-i iii.'il il.strlit of .Vllia- 
 liiiska. iiboiit llie iimli parallid of noitb lull- 
 
 tildr. 
 
 The soiiilii-ru s". linn li of a differeiil 
 ili.irarli'r. It 1.4 iibsolulely an agricul- 
 liinil coiiiilry, and I need not miy that 
 It Is ciiii' of the UiH'st In tin- world to- 
 day. It is traversed by lartse rivers tlow- 
 iiii fioiii till- Koiky iniiiiiilain.'i to IliiNin's 
 b.iy. and lli • valley of the iSaskiitrliewiin 
 is. i,s every one Kuow.-i. eipial In fertility to 
 the valley" of tin- Itid river. Kvi ryliody 
 knows also that the valley of the Iteil river 
 anl the valley of llio S isUatehewan lire to- 
 I'a.v !lie mosl" lerlile ulieal lU'Ms lui Irr liie 
 •Mil. We pnipose to give aiiioiioiiiy, not to 
 111" uliole of till' Terrlloriis. but lo that 
 si.ii.,n will' li e.\lends fnnii the .Viiieriean 
 111.;: uliiry uii to the bmimlary line between 
 th:' provisional distriit of Mai.Uenzie and 
 ■.li" I'l-iivlsional distriet of Atlmbaska, that 
 i> till- I'.illh parallel of U'lrth latitude. 
 
 Wlieii we were tlrst ap;iroielieil on this 
 subject, it was proposed lo in that we should 
 iiiaUe a province exlcniling from the .\merl- 
 1 an Iieundary up to tiie ."i7th parallel, tliat 
 is to say, Nomewhat to the south of the 
 piDvisloiml boiiiiilary between the iirovls- 
 loual districts of Mackenzie and Athabnska, 
 but we thoimht it iireferable lo take In the 
 whole disUiet of Athabaskn. The reason 
 fur iliis is. that although Alhabaska Is not 
 I iiiisiilei-ca to be a fertile country, and the 
 castein portion of it is barren, the westarn 
 piMlion, the valley of the Peace river. Is 
 ei.ual to the valley of the Saskatchewan and 
 SI lileiiieiit lliere Is already proceetling rapid- 
 ly. There are to-day on the Peace river two 
 grist mills, provided absolutely from wheat 
 grown In the Peace river valley, and there- 
 fore we have decided to Include within the 
 new proviu'-es the provisional district of 
 Athabaska. The area of these two pro- 
 vinces together will be about 550,345 square 
 miles. This is, in our estimation, altogether 
 too large an area to be made Into one single 
 province according to the size of the other 
 provinces, the largest of which Is British 
 Columbia, and the next largest Quebec, 
 British Columbin with an area of 372,000 
 square miles and Quebec with an area of 
 :m,000 square miles. By dividing It Into 
 two you have two provinces of 275,000 
 siiuare miles lu round numbers, each about 
 the size of the province of Ontario. If any 
 of the members of the House will care to 
 look at the map, they will see that we have 
 out the provisional lioundnry on the fourth 
 iuerldlau and according to our present In- 
 formation, this win give about the same 
 
urea ond aluo tlic naiuo poiiiilutlon to tlio tsvu 
 irovlnrpD. It \* ONtliiiatcil tliiit ttie |>»|itil:i' 
 tion to-dny iu tlic^ic two pruvliirc!! U iittout 
 .VN),(NM) Rouls. W'l' liavi> ihi iiri'iiniti> iliita, 
 lint wo ciiii (iroii'id pretty i-oiiililoiitl.v iiiioii 
 thii* lnruriiintioii. Tlip miHtiM In I'.mj; kuvu 
 to tlinuo ..'ovtliuiwt TrrrKorlo.'^ ii |>'>i><iliillim 
 <•! n llttl<! ovor DMt.rXK) moiiN. Sliico ll>iil 
 tlino, durtiix the KcnNoiiH of 1IH)t. UiOl', IIUKI 
 iind llKVt, tlio popnliitlnn, by lniiiil)crat!oii 
 alone, ling Iiicri'iiHcd by over l<tO,(HH) a jrenr, 
 no tlml to (lay we feel we are oii pretty safe 
 Krouiid when we M»y that there I* In '.hone 
 two provlneen n total pii|inlutlnn of Wio.OOO 
 nouIm, niid we enlt'niate that thli4 pnpniatluu 
 \» olioiit ei|nally divided between the two 
 provinces, ftUlnif a populntlou of a,^),!)*^) to 
 eneh. 
 
 SIn(C I niu up in the qiicstlon of iKinndarleii 
 ! uliall also cdmc to another (luesllon, con- 
 liteted therewith, that Is to Kiy, llic demand 
 \\hU'h has been inail(> upiiii u-* by the pro- 
 v.Mre <pf MMUltiilia fur an exlcnsimi of Its 
 I muularirs, westward, norllnvard iiml i-.\'<l- 
 ward. Yesterday a nioiiilii;; paper In thU 
 elty published an interview >:lven liy llie 
 lion. Mr. UdRers. a nieiuber of the Knvern- 
 nient of Manitoba, upon this subject. I 
 shall take the liberty of referring to that 
 Interview of Mr. Kogers, sn that the House 
 wdl better understand the point to which 
 I am about to direct its attention. Mr. 
 Itiifjer.s hald In this Interview : 
 
 It U not a matter of agreement. We are iilm- 
 ply presnntlng tlie inmiiimous rvqueit of tlio 
 people of our iirovlnic for the extension of our 
 boumlarlea at least a* far west as Reglna and 
 north as far as the northern boundary of Atha- 
 baska, which wouM Include Fort Churchill, the 
 NclBon river and the territory tributary there- 
 to. ThU la no new request on bchiTif of Mani- 
 toba. In I'JOl a resolution was Introbu ^d In the 
 loRlalalure by Mr. T. A. Burrows, then a mem- 
 ber of the legislature and now a member of the 
 Dominion parliament. ThU resolution was sup- 
 ported by Mr. Greenway, who was then leader 
 of the opposition, now a member of the House 
 of Commons. This was accepted and supported 
 by the government of the day and voted for by 
 every member of the House. /^ similar resolu- 
 tion was Introduced by Mr. Robllo, leader of 
 the government, and unanimously carried In 
 1902. A further resolution was Introduced «t 
 the recent session and voted for by every mem- 
 ber of the legislature, In which action they re- 
 flected the unvnlmoui desire of all Manltobans. 
 Mr. Campbell and myself have been appointed 
 to come here to plead for what Is considered 
 by Manitoba to l>e her Just claims, before the 
 government who are the tribunal In the case 
 and whose decision must be final. 
 
 I rany observe that >lr. Rogers might 
 I'ave gone back much further than 1901 for 
 records of the presentation of the claims of 
 Manitoba for an extension of territory. In- 
 deed as far back ag 1884 a similar request 
 was presented to the government of Sir 
 John Macdonald. At that time the Privy 
 Council dealt with this question In these 
 words : 
 
 The boundaries of Manitoba were originally 
 fixed at the Instance of th« delegates from that 
 
 vi-n 
 
 pro\iti..' who lime to Ottawa In 1479 to a IJust 
 «ilih till' Rovernmi'iit of Canada the terms upon 
 »hlih .M.iniiotio was to enter the cintediiriiloii 
 o,' H^r Mnjei'y's Xotih American provinces 
 
 rti.' llniti* thru ii ;rei 1 to rml.raie an area 
 nf alio, It ti Vm.'wO a rn. In Ihi' yi>ar Wl tlieie 
 liiiiitt were I'lUargel and li rrltory added to the 
 **>■-' and tiortti, !ii'it<tnn tlie totnl area of the 
 prnvlnro IiHOOO.odO ncrvS or UO.IM") squaro niilrs. 
 
 Th« further enlernetui'nl now aski-d tar by 
 Miiniloba would all about l-O.noO H'luaru iniiet 
 to the alrci iy lnr«e ar. a of the province, and 
 would be viewri uith disfavour as well by the 
 old provlncm as by the new districts of AsHJni- 
 bola, Raskatrhevtan. Alberta and Athnbanka, 
 whirh have been created In the Northwest Ter- 
 ritoriei, and which will ultimately become pro- 
 vinces of thr) Dominion. It would iarxely add 
 to the pxpcnae of the government, without In- 
 creaKing the reauurces of .Manitoba, already 
 pronounced by the government of the province 
 to bo Injufflclent to meet 11' normal and neces- 
 sary expense. 
 
 The committee, under these circumstances, 
 humbly submit la Your Excellency, that It 11 
 Inexpedient to alter tb* boundaries of the pro- 
 vince as prayed for. 
 
 Tlii^ answer to the reiiucst of Matiltoba 
 was a cate;:orlcal refusal. I may say that 
 there Is nn erorr In this Order In Counoll. 
 It states that the area of the province of 
 .Mnnltolm at that time was ITitMHli) sipiare 
 miles, whereas it was only 73.0()0. That, 
 however. Is not very material. Hut I want 
 to point otit that the rei|uest of Manitoba 
 DOW is one which could not be granted 
 exce|il with vreat dlttlculty. It would have 
 been far nicire easy for tlie government of 
 that day, twenty years ago, to have ex- 
 tended the limits of Mnnltuba than It would 
 be to-day. At that time the Territories were 
 still In their Infancy ; but to-day they have 
 grown to manhood, and how can it be ex- 
 pected that we shall take from them a por- 
 tion of their territory to give It to Mani- 
 toba ? If this could not bo done in 18SM, I 
 submit that there is still less reason for 
 doing it In 1005. 
 
 Mr. ^ruOlILK. Might I ask the right 
 hon. gentleman If in that calculation was 
 not included the disputed territory t>etween 
 Manitoba and Luke Superior? 
 
 Sir WILFRID LAURIER. No, I think 
 not. It was in dispute at that very moment 
 But even If It had been Included, what 
 would it have mattered 7 We want to deal 
 as fairly as we can with Manitoba and to 
 give It nil the consideration which Is due to 
 her. But Is there a member of this House 
 who would advise ua that we should carve 
 out of the Territories which for thirty yearn 
 have been under the jurisdiction of their 
 own legislature, which arc to-day repre- 
 sented by ten memliers In this House, any 
 portion of what belongs to them and hand 
 it over to tlie province of Manitoba against 
 the consent of the people of those terri- 
 tories ? If they agreed to it, well ami good; 
 I would have nothing to say. But the legis- 
 lature of the Territories has more than tince 
 declared that they would not under any 
 
l-'ll. llllKlllIl' < • ..■llTlll t.> iillV I'l.lt.'ll ."f 
 
 llliM' liri,Hii> H.>l".ir(l i>l lln' I'lm II. r of 
 .M.ililliili.i li'ni; liikiu Ir.Mii lilt Ml. 
 
 riii:r ,. ;:if;lii r ii>n«itl< fill "H l'"i' "') 
 |i.irl. 1 am If. i.'.inl t" i!i>"' n lull I"'"'' 
 mu ii> 111! i.r..x ii.c iif M.iirinl'.i. XMicii 
 lliiil |.rc.»;ii.i' :\«l>« 1.1 liini. li'T 1 li.il' <v 
 I. mini woM^anl. I .iiii I •>iiiiil to •.!> Iliiil 
 \\l' .llllll.it lllllll.l!ll 111. I! |ii.i>'f. fi'f 111'" 
 
 -iiii|iii' f..„«.iii. iiiai 111.' r.Tfit. ■;■;••«. tiif.iinj'i 
 
 ilii'lr |i'L'i>liitiii... Imv.. iiii««inl iiimii It iiiiil 
 li;ni' iiriiMiinti 1(1 ii«ii:ii«l It, Hut I iimltT 
 -I. mil lliiil ii-i lo 11 ciriiiin jiiiflinii <<t l.Tfi 
 i.ii.\ Miiflli iif l.iil.'' >\ iiitil|i"i:t"-iH ami l.iikt. 
 MiiiiilDlin. III.' ^^l|■lll^\.■^l l.'aNlatiin- ha-, ilf 
 « li.icd tliat II 111- 111 |in)inmiiii'il vi.'VVH, aiiil 
 that llial 111 ;;lil li" i-iiill In till' liliM in.' of 
 Miillilolia, Hut I v.-li tli!« 1 aili li'U lu*'!*:"!'""'' 
 liif my |..'.rt to trraiit at tills iiidiii.iiI ; I"' 
 laiisi- iiii.iiilii.rs fi'inc-i'iitiii;; Hint -.■■IImi 
 
 tixliiy hit III! ll.i- It • of this Ifi ii-i'. aiiil 
 
 iliry iiliil II. ca- ;ii'.)l>li' liaM- tlir lijilit lo I'O 
 licani on lliat .lUislimi; ami If tlu'y ilo iinl 
 imrri' to !t. I il.t m>t llilliU lln' |iail anient 
 (if faiuiilii slio'.ilil maUc tlic fc-ianl aKiilUMl 
 llirif \\i>lirs. 
 
 Hut. Sif. lliifr .» aiio'liif iliniai.il of tliu 
 
 pf.iviini. of Man. tuba «iiUli I lli.iik i» on ; 
 
 lllii.tl to 1.1. f I nii»i.U'ratloii. M.iiiitolia lias 
 
 iiKUod to liaM' liri' toifitofy <'\Uiii1imI to tlio 
 
 HliorcM of IIuiImmi'm luiy: iiml tills U » 
 
 I.fiiycf wliirh s. I'ins to iiii' to lie t'lilitl.'il 
 
 to a fair lioaiiu'-'. 'I'lio iifoviiiio of Maiiit.il>a 
 
 Is li'it, liiiw.vrf, till' (iniy one wlioso ten.- 
 
 lofv ninlil 1.1" ( xl.iiil.'il toHiifiN lluiNmi's 
 
 liiiy. Tlic i.|o\iii,.<. of OiilafUj Woulil liiiM' 
 
 till' name rljilii; llio iifovhu'o of yiu'ln'.' 
 
 w.nilil alMi liiiM' tliai rl'^lii; mi. I the new 
 
 lifovimo of Sa>Uat. licwiin ulf"). ThiTifon*. 
 
 ill till' |ifo.liil wlil.li «(• liavi" 1.) lu-o-i'Ut lo 
 
 tlio lliiiiM" l.l■l.l.^. lusloiiil of Im Iii.liiii.' ill 
 
 lliu iif.ivimi' of SasUat.lii'«iili lliat liiiflimi 
 
 of toffitoiy lyliu- ii.iftli of Lake Wiiiiiipi'tt 
 
 osjg ami I.ali.'.Maiiilol.a. « .• iimiwisi' to liavp 
 
 that oiilvi.l,', to Im- iinlmlcd iicHlirf in San- 
 
 kalclicwaii iiof in Maiiilnlia. lint to li.- il.'.ilt 
 
 with at a fiiluro ilay. Ami I may .say at 
 
 once, ami I havr tlio aiitlior'.iy of my inl- 
 
 h'limirs to iiialic tlio aiimmmriiiont, that vo 
 
 pi.iliosc til iuvilo ilip jUMvim-o of iMiiaii.i. 
 
 tlip lu-oviiiio of liiii'l.cM'. tho iifo\ime of 
 
 Manilolia and tin' iiMvincn of SasUiitrho- 
 
 wan lo iiifft us Inf.' to di'.'ldc wlirlh.'f or 
 
 not it is iidvisalili' that tlio limits of any 
 
 of tlii'so jifovir.ci's should l)i> oMomli'il to 
 
 Iho Klioffs of Ilmls n's Hay. ami If so. In 
 
 what manni f il slim Id I>i> dono. We liavp 
 
 not ciiisiili'ird tlio n. itt'f yot. liut jiofhajis 
 
 It may not In- unadv salilo oven to .oiisult 
 
 tlio otlior piin imos. i vculiifo to iliinU that 
 
 Iho proposal wlii.'h I now iiiaUo to tlio 
 
 llonsp with 1,'foroiiio to tlio pniviii.o of 
 
 Miiiiiloli.n is a fair oiio. whiili will rommcnd 
 
 ilsolf to tlio uppro\al of all thoso who liavo 
 
 piveii tho iimltof fair and impanial loii- 
 
 sidoratloii. 
 
 Tlio new iirovimos slmll. as a matlof of 
 coiirso. be rpproKOlitod on tlio Hoof of this 
 House, and. until anoihor plc.tioii tnkos 
 
 pl.l.o, Ihrj •litlll innliliUo I.I I'O ri-plTtrUtrrt 
 iim llicy iiVr to da*. Tin ro will Ix' III Mi.h 
 plii\lli'0 a |oi;>lallvi' iis-riiibl.» of wli.li 
 it la imiposi'd that tho iiuiiilnf of im'ml.ir* 
 uliiill ho tttriil\ Iho. 
 
 .\ .(ilo-l i.ll »li.li ha« fciwii soiiio ihfH 
 iiiii\ 1.1 I III' miiiilii'in i.f ihi I'ummltlop » In 
 had llii' I'lopaiiill.'ii ol this Itlll. Iiiih Ik i-i- 
 111.' -olo. lion of Iho .aplalg of tho io>.po. 
 Ii\.' pio\lmrs. .\» to Iho oaplliil of ihi' 
 pfoxaii'P of j'.isknt.liowHii, Iho dlllliiilly K 
 ('.ii.ily liolM'd, If will bo. IIS It Im nt pro 
 xoiit. It>'i.'!mi. Kilt .:s to tho ..ipllill of 
 .MIiiTla. 111!' iioli'itloii wim not ho oa«y. 
 Iliii.. n 11' llif.'o .'laiimilit.4 f.if II <'ali.'iiry, 
 It.'d lii'.f ..ml Ddimmtoii. oaoli of wlilrli 
 I. .1(1 II n"""! I'laim. Wo hiivo docldod thai 
 «<• Hiiiilil i:.it iiiako any liiial s.lo. Il.ui. 
 having llio Ilii;! folootloii to tho pfosimo 
 ;i.i.|r. Ill tlir moi'i'tlmo. If y..ii liKiU at 
 Ih" map. v.. 11 will fiM' that Kdimiiiloii (..•oms 
 lo |i" til.' ni.isi ..nlfiil p.iliit. and tliorof.ifc 
 wi' pr.ipi.so Id niaki' IMmoiilini tho oaplt.il 
 for Iho pp'soiit. 
 
 It.'yond tills. 1 hino only to say lliiit It Is 
 Iho iiili'iitimi lo have this Hill .■oiiio lino 
 f.iri'.' (Ill .liily I ui'xt. 
 
 Tho point boliii; soltlod as to Iho iiumlior 
 of piovimos to lio mliulllod liil.i . .iiif>'<lora 
 tl.iii, tho next iim'stlon Is that fitaiillnK 
 tho piddi.' laml.s. In whom slioiil.l ilio own- 
 orshlp of tho lands bp vpstod V Slimihl tlii'jr 
 Ii.'loiiu' lo till- pfovlii.-os of t.> till' In. minion'; 
 .\ slfiin^ plou wus prosoniod to us on li.'hnlf 
 of tho pi'ovinoos. li was ropiosiiilod that 
 as 11 m.ittof of law and of p.iully. Iho publl.' 
 lands ill thoso two pruvliioes should boloim 
 to tlioir Kovoriimoiits. This ploa wim no 
 doubt snacoslod by llio fuit that ut tho 
 tinio (if ooiirodoiation. all tho partlos to tho 
 ofi;;iiial contra, t. that Is to Kiiy. the l>fo- 
 vlii.-os of Nova Scotia, Now Itfuimwlok. 
 Ontario and Quobo.', ouch rotalnod hor own 
 lauds ; and whoii at a later day tho province 
 of Ufltish roliiiiibiu was admitlod to the 
 Pomiiilon, slio al.-o rotalnod hor lauds. Hut, 
 Sir, tlio ca.-cs are imt at all parallel. When 
 the prnvliicos which I have iiau.cd oauio 
 int.) ..oi.fcdcfatloi;, they wore already kov- 
 pf(i;,-.illos. I uso that term, because bar- 
 rimr Ih.'lr dopond.'nco as oohinios they wore 
 xivoicl^'iitios III tlip seiisp of havliiB the 
 iiiaiia,i.'i'moul of their own affairs. Kaoli 
 had a dopartim nt of Kovornment "allod the 
 t'niwu Lands Ii(>parlinent. which was pii- 
 tnislod Willi tho power of dealinc with 
 thoso lands, oitlior for revenue or for settle- 
 moiir. I'.ut tho case of these new provin- 
 ces is not at all similar. They never had 
 ■ ilio .nvnofship of the liiuds. Those lands 
 wcfo bouul.t by tho Dominlou governiuent, 
 ami they liave romainod ever sinco tho pro- 
 ' pefly (if the dominion Bovernimiit, and 
 havi!- bPon adialnistorod by the Dumlnion 
 Bovcrnmoni. Thoreforo I say the two oases 
 are not in any way parallel; they ore Indeed 
 absolutely dirtoreiit. When the provinces 
 which 1 have named caiuo into confedera- 
 
 tion they retained the ownership of their 
 
11)1111' llllO !!.•• lldlll.Uilill. it 'illllliil Im' 'lltll 
 
 tlial tln'j- 'iiii I'liilii llir i.» inr»li:ip of tli< Ir 
 liiiiil-, ii» tiny ii.\<r ii.iil ih" ii«ii.>r»lill«. 
 
 Thi'if fiinv lln' |'i'n|i..»iiii.ii Unit In i'<|iill.v 
 mill Jii^lli'i' iIh'xi' liiml" tMliihu" III till- \<r»\- 
 iliii'w it iml truiil.U-, ISill tiM lii> I'iit't I 
 wolll.l not nirr. Ill ■ ilH.-lW'll c.f Hill lllilM)lt 
 mm'. Ill ri'«l till' • ii"'- I'll II liKi'i' iil>»lrii't |ii«>- 
 |H.»illii11. \\<' llill"! '■'•« It rniiii tlir 
 urciiiiiils I'f ('■111 > ; mill fnmi H.o lii«li'"t 
 Kl-oiliiili* iif liiilNy. ' think It Is iiilvlwitilf 
 timt till' ow iKi-ililp of tlit'Hi- IiiiuIh Hliould 
 niiitliiiif ti> !»■ VI-I.-.I 111 til.' llMliillilMII ll>>t- 
 ciillliPlit. Wo liiivi' |.ift<il<'lit« fiir tlilt. lull 
 ,. ;l iM»l' ill ulll.ll \\f . .Ill U'l 111 till' riiiti'il 
 Htiltt'!» for lnni'ilriM-. llii'V "I"'' "llili'twl 
 very iiiiuii »<* wc iilf n-xiiitlUiK tlio tnvtu-l 
 hlilp i.r ImiiU mill the i'.|Mli!l»liim'iit of m-w 
 
 itiltf"'. WIU'IK'VIT II ll«»' "'i"!' lull* lnwi 
 
 rmiti'il 111 till- Ali.i'fi.iiii fill 111. lilt" I'fili'lill 
 HKVi'iiiiiuiit li.i> iihviiys ii'tiiliinl tin; owuer 
 Rlilp iiml iimiiiiai'iiK'iit of till' inilill'- liiuaii. 
 Ami wliiii «p tiilii- till' ii'ioiili nf oiii- own 
 roiiiitrv, we know lliiit wlii'ii Miiiilloliii wan 
 lin.ii;.'!!! Into Hi.' I'lMiiliilo". tlmt iimviiu'c 
 was iKit i:lv.M 111.' owiii r^'lilp of li<r lamU. 
 but It ri'iiiiiliK'J 111 tlio Duiiiliiloii (.'ovi'ii- 
 iiu'iit. Tnif It In Hint MaiiUolm inadi' 
 M'viTiil iffortM to ni'iiiilre tin- owiiiTstilp of 
 the lands within hff lioumlmloK. Shi- ap 
 nliid iiiori- 111. in OHIO to tin- mhiomIvi- v»y- 
 pniiiu'iitit of the Dominion. Init her ui>pll'i>- 
 tlon was ahvayg nift In tlii' saiuc way. It 
 w:\% nhvaVH iiu't by tho stati'mi'iit thnt It 
 wim liiiiwunllile to praiit lu'r rt'<iiifi«t. Iho 
 inaltor was flnnlly "losea lit 1R«4 when the 
 uovi rnnicnt of Sir .lohn Marilonahl. which 
 Imil been Hpproaihcil on the »utiJoct, cnve 
 vorv forcibly anil dearly the ri'a.sons why 
 the" pr:\vor of that provlme roiilil not lie 
 I'litciinli'uHl. I niuy he allowed to quote to 
 the House the lauRunBe tiscd by the ii<n- 
 eminent of Sir John Mncdonnld on the 
 ocenglon. It will be found In nn Order In 
 ronncll of the 30th Mn/. 18.SI :- 
 
 Tho iucccss of the un4orlakln|ts by the Do- 
 minion government In »nd for tlie Northwest, 
 depends largely upon the scttlemenl of the 
 lands. Combined with a great expen>tituro In 
 organiilng and maintaining nn Immigration ter- 
 ylce abroad and at home, parliament pledged 
 Us faith to the wor'd that a large portion of 
 those lands should be set apart for free home- 
 steads to all coming settlers, and another por- 
 tion to bo he'd in trust for the education of 
 their children. No transfer loiild. therefore, 
 b* made, without exacting from the province 
 the most ample securities that this pledged 
 policy shall be maintained ; hence In so far as 
 the free lands extend there would be no mone- 
 tary advantage to the province, whilst a trans- 
 fer would most assurMly seriously embarrass 
 all iho costly Imralgraiion operations which the 
 Dominion government Is making mainly In be- 
 half of Manitoba and the Territories. 
 
 The great attraction which the Canadian gov- 
 ernment now offers, the Impressive fact to the 
 mind of the men contemplating Immigration Is 
 that a well known and recognized government 
 holdi unfettered in its o«n band tho lands 
 
 Khlh !■ I'tTi ri fri'H. m- I <h*\ -11111 g«teriiBii-ni 
 ha« li« ii»i II' .' « ,1'it Miitiiiiu.i'i"i' (i>r dir"-. ling 
 ri.MvIn*, iri«H"i'i>riliig .ird ilaiinn ilie Imnil- 
 gniiii tirni ih' hniii. »!• rf'l «h..h h. iii,i» 4' Ui ' 
 ,Mi.l it ihi liLinmri'ion ocriHiions of ilie l><i 
 iiiliiloii. wh. h iii\iilM> •<> liiiK" a co»t. are tn 
 iimc . oiiiiiiui '1 '11 '111 mil '1' 1"' "f udvaniaei' 
 10 Maiil:ol>.i mill the Nor!h»i3t Tci rl'iif !■ ". >'>il'' 
 •tib-i '>mmli rr rf. i-ra It to be of the utmoal Im- 
 riiruMii- ili.i^ Ih'' liDiiiinlnn (overnment ihall 
 r.-.iin and loiuroi ih.- I«iiil« •hUh It has pro- 
 ilaiimil ff' '- to nil .imiin. Were there other 
 1 on«i IrruUoii.. of n.iltl li nt furie to Induce them 
 •o 1 .iiimii'^d ih. ir ir.iiff.r to M:inlloba, and 
 Hi A lonsi-iu- II. '■ an I hy I'l-i- -eJ»iit the surren- 
 diT to the proNlii i» 10 lie erralcJ from the 
 Norihwut Tirrllorv. nil tho lands wlihln their 
 boiiiidaruii, thin iliiy »<iuld advUe that th« 
 pro\lnn« liulilliiK the lands nhoiild conduct their 
 o»a iniiiiiKiaii'ii oln'imloiiii nt ib"lr own e»- 
 ' P' use. 
 
 i 'I'lii'KC rranoiiK, >-(i'oii): mid fm. ililc «« they 
 ' were In ISM. ate even iitrotiuer luul iiion' 
 ' fiinlbli' ill 1!"'.". bi'caiiMe the nil rent of lin- 
 j nilirrutiiiii is now llonliiu' Into these Terrl- 
 1 torii s ill nil uiipii'i'tMli'iited volume, miil 
 I we nie tlierefoic eonipelled to nay to the 
 I new pro\liK-es Unit wc iiiiist eontlniie the 
 1 |i(ill.y of retaliilni: the ow in r-^lilp and eon- 
 trol of til" landH in our own hand* If 1* 
 I'oni't'ivabh' that If tbene land* were civen to 
 the ii''W provliioes. the iiiiiii-.\ of either one 
 of tlieiii iiilulit difffi- from oi"-* anil eliish 
 ' with our efToils lo Inerease lniniii;nitlon. It 
 liilKht pi'ssllily ri'ialt-r these elTorts nilk'a- 
 ' tcry. For li'iK.ance, If either of the new 
 ' proviui-e.s. iliidiT the sIimIii of lltianclal dif- 
 llculty, were to abolish the free lioineMlemls. 
 i whleli have proveil b.i licnellelal and no kivrI 
 nn Indueeinent to Inunlcriitlon, one ean 
 n'ad;iy understand what u jrreat blow that 
 ' would be to our lniinl«riitlon policy. Or If 
 i the p-iie of Kovernnient lands for sale were 
 - to be InereaseU over tlie pre;ient very niiHler- 
 lite lato. chat wonhl nl»o be another blow 
 ! to that policy. Itnt I frnnlly it'ltult. and 
 I we luuKt all lecoytilze. that the piovluce« In 
 I tho west. In beln,' deprived of the public 
 1 laiidn. arc deprived of a valuab' • Kouree of 
 Income. And In thnt way they coniplain 
 that they are put on a footing of liieiiuallty 
 as couipurctl with the older provinces of tho 
 ! Uoinlnlon. HcallzlUK that fact. It la tho 
 diitv of parliament lo in.ike ample, even sen- 
 eroiis. provlnlon which will roiupeiiBnte tli« 
 provluces for the retention of the lands 
 by the Fctleral Rovernnient. and 1 believe 
 that In n)"kng this provision we Bball have 
 the full support of hoii. members whether 
 on one side or on the other. 
 
 Now I eoiue to the financial terms which 
 should be given to the new provinces. Our 
 eonstltutlou, which Is to be found In the 
 British North America Act. contains n very 
 remurknble provision. It coutolns the pro 
 vision thnt out of the KedernI trensury 
 there shall be paid to the provinces 
 a large amount of money in the shape 
 of subsidies to assist them In carrying on 
 their business. This. I say. Is a very extra- 
 ordinary provision. It is, I believe, unique. 
 
\t Mil ovoiits, so r;ii- !is my ,iifoi-m;ili.jii goes, ! 
 I do not l;iU)\v tthit niiy siiiillai- provisloii Is ; 
 to 111' found ill llic foiitiliilinii of :niy other 
 IV.loral Kovi'iiiiiiiiit. 11 i>: a simiul iiiiin.-.l)!<; , 
 of liiiai-'-c. mid a >till soiuuUT iiriucii.lo of 
 -ovcniiiiMH. that tiio-.,' who liavo the duty 
 „f expeiidintr the n-yin'o ol' a country 
 should also ho saddled wlih the r'.si.nns;- 
 I.Ultv of levyliiK and jirovidiiv^ it. mat 
 ,.rin(i|il.' has hon dciintcd from in our 
 <;;sp and no (hiuli! wiis depart. 'd Irom wltll , 
 some ohipct. AVh:'! i;iii have lu-en the rea- ] 
 soni which induceil the fathers of confed- 
 eralion in l^'iT to dci'ait from so olivio\is a 
 prin.iiile of llnamo and Koverameut. Iho 
 reasons are simply these. Confederation 
 was the result of several compromises. ^ ■ 
 would have heen impossible to ostablisli it 
 if there had not heen a policy of (Slve and 
 take adopted amons all the constituent 
 bodies. And I am quite sure, I am speak- 
 in!,' ahsolnte historical truth \vhen I sny 
 tliat neitlier Nova Scotia, Now }".runs\vlck, 
 Ontario nor Quehee wouhl ever have con- 
 sented to part with their revenues, to give 
 up their powers of taxation in customs and 
 excise if th<>v had not been i>roi.iised that 
 out of the federal revenues they would he 
 nllow<Hl a certain sum every year to defray 
 the e.xpenso of their own local jjpveni- 
 incnts and administrations. This is the 
 .eason why this provision is to l>e found 
 In the British North America Act. It is 
 there. I do not thiid; it is sound, hut 
 though in my .iudsment unsound, it is the 
 dutv of everybody in this House and in this 
 eou'ntrv to take confederation as we find 
 It with its Kood points and its blemishes, 
 .ind carry It to the end on the principle 
 iipon which it was established. Therefore 
 upon this point I believe it is the duty of 
 the Canadian parlianuMit to conliiuie tiiat 
 policy in thU in»tanec and make a liberal 
 provision for ' there two new provinces 
 which we are about to nduilt Into the Can- 
 adian family. ^ , 
 
 Kut before I come to the revcuuo to be 
 ■'iven these nrovinces. it will perhaps be 
 preferable that I should give an idea of 
 their jiresent requlremeuts. Last year there 
 wa<( 1 \pended out of appropriations by this 
 parliament for the use of the local le-Tis- 
 lature and by the local lej-'islature itself. 
 
 Civil government *^21'oi- 
 
 LiGeislation 21.37o 
 
 Administration of Justice .... 29,000 
 
 Public Works «80.W2 
 
 Education ,5m„ 
 
 Agriculture and Statistics .. .. 4i,t>»u 
 Hospitals, charities and public 
 
 health llf. 
 
 Miscellaneous w.iio 
 
 To these must be added sums whieh were 
 spent bv this government on services which 
 In the future will have to be carried on by 
 the Rovcnimcnts of the provinces : 
 
 Kjr"":.::::::::::::'jS 
 
 Miscellaneous lM.iiv 
 
 And this item of 'miscellaneous' w.is 
 composed as follows ; 
 
 l.loutcnant-Onveruor'a odice.. .. S 3.SS0 
 
 Incidental Justice ^'"S?? 
 
 In;;anc patients '2'2Sa 
 
 Schools In unorganized districts 6,500 
 
 So that. last vcar there was provided for 
 iiiid expended by the Northwest Territories 
 ,1 total sum of iJl.uaii.OOO. 
 
 111-. I'OSTKIl. Was that provided by tUiJ 
 government V 
 
 Sir WIl.IT.lL) LAXIRIER. Yes. 
 Mr. FOSTER. Ooes the right hoii. t;eii- 
 llcmau know what was raised by the sov- 
 ernmeut itself ? 
 
 Sir Wllil'UIl) LAURIKR. Included in 
 this was what was raised by the local gov- 
 ( rniiient. which, was I believe In the nei^'h 
 bourhood of .$150,000. So, this year, if th" 
 conditious were to remain ns they are. with- 
 out any increased demands, we should have 
 to provide about $l.*a'!.00O, or an average 
 of i^SlS.OCO for each province. Of course, 
 there a.re some Items of this expenditure 
 which, under the new cotulitions. must be 
 duplicated, because there will lie two sov- 
 ernments instead of one. Besides, as every 
 one knows immigration Is flowing rapidly 
 into the Territories, and it Is no wonder If 
 the present reipiirements of the Territories 
 are not sufficiently represented by these 
 figures. More liberal i>rovisioii auist be 
 made for their expenses. 
 
 So, I come to the terms wliieli we have 
 made with the province.?— the terms we pro- 
 pose to give them. As the House knows, 
 we are guided In tills by the terms of the 
 Rritish North America Act. Section 118 of 
 that Act reads as follows : 
 
 The following sums shall be naid yearly by- 
 Canada to the several provinces for the support 
 of their governments and legislatures : 
 
 Ontario JSO.OM 
 
 Quebec 70.000 
 
 Nova Scotia «0.000 
 
 New Brunswick 50.000 
 
 Two hundred and sixty tl -Jusand,— and an 
 annual grant In aid of each province shall be 
 made, equal to eighty cents per head of the 
 population as ascertained by the census of one 
 thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and in 
 case of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, by 
 subsequent decennial census until the popula- 
 tion of each of those two provinces amount to 
 four hundred thoisand souls, at which rate 
 such grant shall thereafter remain. Such 
 grants shall le In full settlement of all future 
 demands on Canada, and shall b« paid half- 
 yearly In advance to each province ; but the 
 government ot Canada shall deduct from such 
 grants, aa against any province, ail sums 
 ihargcable as Interest on the public debt of 
 that province In excess of the several amounts 
 stipulated In this Act. 
 
 Now. we propose to make the following 
 
 terms, keeping as close ns possible to the 
 
 Rrltlsh North America Act. I cite from the 
 
 Bill: 
 
Th* fnllowin? amounts shall be allowed as an 
 nnniml snbsldv to the province of Alberta ami 
 shall be paid by the fiovcrnment of Canada 
 by half-yi'nrly Instalmcnta In advance : Sup- 
 port ot govcTiiir.rr.t and lt-glslaii:i'-. Jv-tLW, 
 
 Tliat Is tlip Slim imia to Xow Hninswlck, 
 wlion tlie population of that province was 
 iibout tli(> s;uiic as tliat of Alberta, 
 —on an <ylmaiod population ot 2J0,O0O al 
 piijlily ronta per heal $:00,000, subject to be 
 incrcasol as birclnafter mentioned, that IS to 
 nay : The census of the province shall be 
 taken every fifth year, reckoning from the 
 Kt>!ipral census ot IWH. and an approximate 
 estimate ot population shall be made at 
 rnual i,:lirvils between each quinquennial 
 and decennial census, and, whenever the popu- 
 lation, by any such census or estimate should 
 exceed 250,000, the allowance should be In- 
 creased accordingly until the population has 
 reached 800,000 
 
 Now llic House liiis observed that in 
 clause 118 (if tlic nritish North Aniericii Act. 
 which I have Just road, the capitation allow- 
 uice of the provinces ot Nova Scotia and 
 New Hninswlck was nxed at a maximum 
 of 400,000 population. This rule was aiiplied 
 nl.=.> to Manitoba and British Columbia. The 
 reason whv the maAiraum was fixed at -100,- 
 000 pojiiiliition is not very apparent, but I 
 Imagine that it was supposed nt that time 
 that tlie population of Uiosc provinces was 
 not likely to reach a very much higher liKuro 
 than 4OO".0OO. And this calculation has pro- 
 ven true. It took years for Nova Scotia to 
 reach that raaximura ; New Brunswick lias 
 not reached it yet. nor has SInnltoba nor 
 BrIUsh Columbia. But It would be mani- 
 festly unfair to these new provinces to limit 
 their maximum to 400.000. Already the 
 population Is about 250.000. Therefore. In- 
 stead of flxins the maximum at 400,000 
 population, we have fixed It at SOO.OOO. 
 
 A more Important allowance Is the allow- 
 ance for debt. And this is what we propose: 
 Inasmuch as the province Is not In debt, the 
 said province should be entitled to be paid 
 and to receive from the sovernment of Canada 
 by half-yearly instalments. Interest at the rate 
 of 5 per cent on the fum of JS.IOT.MO. 
 
 The reason of this is familiar to every- 
 body, but iierhaps. It is not unimportant 
 that I should review It here, and present it 
 •i"ain to the House. In 1S6", when con- 
 federation was established the debts of the 
 provinces were assumed by the Dominion— 
 the debts of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia 
 and New Brunswick. Now, the debt at that 
 time of Old Canada, that Is the provinces of 
 Ontario and Quebec, amounted to $07,000.- 
 000 in round numbers. The debt of New 
 Brunswick was about $7,000,000 and that of 
 Nova Scotia about $8,<X„;,000. It so hap- 
 pened tha^ the debt of New Brunswick rep- 
 resented an overage of iiliout $25 per head of 
 the population, nnd the debt of Nova Scotia 
 of about $8,000,000 was nearly the same per 
 head ot her population. The debt of Old 
 Canada was a little greater per head. There- 
 fore when allowance was made for the 
 
 debts of the provinces, the »1<^'''' "f On'-^J? 
 and Qu-bpc was taken not at $07,00OWt>. 
 but at $fV.>,000.00. That Is. Onfj'" n^<?^ 
 bee were endi relieved of about $31,000,OOW. 
 Nova Scotia of $9,000,000. nnd New Bruns- 
 wick ot S7.000,000. The provinces of Nova 
 Scotia and Now r.riiiKwlck entered con- 
 federation without debt, while Ontario and 
 Quebec had between tlieiii a debt of about 
 $5,000,000. Later on. new arrangcmenU 
 were made, now debts of the provinces were 
 assumed bv the nomlnion. and the provinces 
 were fieeti from such liabilities. By this 
 means the capitation allowance for *l<;bt was 
 increased from .«2.- to ?S2.4:? per head. This 
 Is the last allowance that was made for 
 debt nnd. If I reniemiier well this was made 
 by statute r^tssed in 1881 or 1885. There- 
 fore we make this allowance of $34.43 per 
 head to these new provinces. They have a 
 population of 2.-.0.fH)0 souls each. This 
 makes a total of $8,107,500. 
 Mr. FOSTHR. On the basis of $32.43 ? 
 
 Sir WII.FRin LAUUIEn. On the basis 
 of $32.43, $8,107,500. Upon this we allow 
 the large rate of Interest which has been 
 given to nil the provinces ot 5 per cent. We 
 now come to the allowance tor land. 
 
 Mr. n. I'. BOUDEN. Before the right 
 hon gentleman touches the land— he has 
 spoken ot the population ot the Territories 
 as amounting, at the present time, to 500,- 
 iKM) souls, and the allowance both for debt 
 and subsidies based on that ; would he be 
 good enough to give us any information lu 
 his possession as to that question ? 
 
 Sir WILFRID LAURIER. As I stated 
 a moment ago, by the last census the i>opu- 
 latlon of the Northwest Territories was 
 105,555 souls. Since that time increases 
 have been made, and tlie i>opulatlon now 
 amounts, according to the last returns placed 
 In my hands, to 417,950 souls. The iwpula- 
 tlon is Increasing rapidly. 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. What was the basis of 
 the estimate ? 
 
 Sir WILFRID LAURIER. The returns 
 mostly of immigration, but I will give 
 i the e.iact basis ns wc have it correctly 
 from the Interior Department. Total popu- 
 latioii as per census ot 1001. 105,555 souls : 
 increase ot population liy homesteaders 
 since the census ot 1901, 221.231 Bonta. 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. Entries or actual settlers ? 
 
 j sir WILFRID LAURIER. I do not 
 
 I know that they are actual entries, but we 
 
 i calculate the population upon entries for 
 
 homesteads. I will read the figures : 
 
 ! Population at present of Northwest Territories 
 ! (estimated) 417,956. 
 
 ' Total population as per census of 1901.. l«o,568 
 Increase ot population of homesteaders 
 
 ' since the census ot 1901 • •■ ■• 221,261 
 
 Increase ot population other than hon3»- 
 
 Bteaders since census, 1901, say it.om 
 
 (Estimated from Waghorn's Guide.) 
 
lf> 
 
 I'OO 
 
 Ebi'matxl iin:iiral inrr'a-c of tlic ropu- 
 Intion at 1?01 to da!e i? 
 
 K'limatcd natural inuvoa.-!? of tlio in- ^_ 
 ,ir.i.-e of population in I'.-OJ :o liate is I.-'-j 
 
 Kstimatod na'ural im-rcase of tho in- ^ ^_ 
 
 • rease of population in V.i'2 to date Is ..o.O 
 EMiuiatcd natural In.-rcaso of tlie ir.- 
 
 • r'.\.' of population in T'Ol to -a'e is '■■!■. 
 
 417,050 
 .\o>v, tills Act is not ti) c.iiiio into fofce 
 until tlio l^t or July, nuil wo ostiiiiiito tlnit 
 :•.>• tho 1st of July tlie poimliition will liavo 
 ini lonsoil to .'ilMMiUO souls. This is the biisi-- 
 of our cillouhition. Now. I s:\i<l a nioiunit 
 ago iiuti till' Ilotwo siiMiiiMl to :i;.'r<;e with 
 mo thiit as we lotuin tho Iiuuls in out- own 
 hiiutls, it is nntuial uml to lie expcoted that 
 p)\onini<;nt aiul iiaflianiont would ho hlioral 
 in thi'if allowanoo to ttio mw in-ovincos for 
 
 ,-,.ii!p..nsatiou in that iv-^i t. Manitoba, 
 
 whi.'h has an aioa of T^JdiMi suiiai-o miles, 
 lecoivoil as tompciisatlon for hot- lands some 
 lirtoon Of twonlv years a;;o an annual !,'vant 
 ..f SlCdOOi". Apart from that. Manitoba has 
 re.-oivcd tho swamp hsnds. -l-ho swamp 
 lands are perhaps the most valuable lands 
 in the province of Manitoba. They le.itnre 
 some preliminary work for .Ir.imaw I'Ut 
 when drahied there are no better lands In 
 the whole pfovimv. When the late novcru- 
 nie';t wive to the icviiue of Manitoba the 
 swanio lands, they made her a va.uable 
 ^-ift. and it has proved to her a inost nn- 
 Porlaut a<sot. Hut the Northwest lerii- 
 
 ie • lave no swamp lands, we could ..o 
 do for them .vhat the ^'overnment did loi 
 
 he province of Manitoba. Wo have, the re- 
 •!,e made the followins.' arrangement, 
 whi.'h we conimen.l to tlie favourable eon- 
 ^id.'i'ation of the House : 
 
 Vs .he piblir lands in the faid provinces aro j 
 .„\o.i.i the property of Canada, there shall 
 .0 "^"V",'' V-o,' u to the said provinces annu- 
 all/'hy v^ay of 'ompen.arion ?herefor .. sum 
 ^,s.,i uDon the estimated value of such lands 
 bas'.d upon_uic ^^ as=;umpd 
 
 !oZ'o 'an'-ifea o :i,OOo!oOO a.res and to t.e of 
 
 °e vi?o of $1.50 P.:r acre, and upon the popu- 
 
 i^Ho,; t the -:ii\ provinces as from time to 
 
 »..,..• lined hv lb-! quiuauennial census 
 
 i^reo'f such " m to bo avrivcd at as follows :- 
 
 Tbe poivaiation of the said provinces -^e.ng 
 
 n«i,.mel h- at present 2i,'t,0l)0. tlio sum pay- 
 
 ab em, us '.'■1. population reaches 400.000 is to 
 
 f,o ..r P-r cer.l on such estimated value, or 
 
 '^Thereafter until such population reaches SOO - 
 000, the sura payable is to be one ^nd one-half 
 r„.r e.'nt on such ertiniiit,-d v.au". or $oi,.!...00. 
 ' There!,t"er until such population reaches 
 
 1 ooo 000, the sum payable is to be two per cent 
 on such estimated value, or $T,.o.O00. 
 
 "And thereafter such payment ^^ ^°\^'}J^^ 
 ,.,.; cent on such estimated value, or »1-1 ...jOO. 
 in additional compensation for such lands, 
 there shall be paid by Canada "> s"^'', P""*''"" 
 annually to, tivo years from the time this 
 Act comes into force to provide for the cpn- 
 tinieiiou of uticssary pub:i.: btr,!.,,riS=, K--"-- 
 Let me now recapitulate to sec the mini- 
 mum each luovince Is to ixeivc. At pre- 
 sent, this year, the iirovince is to receive 
 
 for civil ;;..vernment •'SoiMW : for oai'iii.- 
 tion .Tllowance. .fJUti.uOO, which is toing to 
 increase unt.i the population has reaehetl 
 SOU,OW» souN. It will receive for debt al- 
 lowance S^4o.-.,U75, and th;s year It wjll re- 
 ceive alsii fur laud compensation .foT.'i.vKW ; 
 total ifl,o:io.;jTo. to which sum must be 
 added, for live years. .«0-J,5i)0, lu order to 
 allow the province to provide for Uor buUU- 
 inss and pnldic works generally. 
 
 This i-^ the minimum which will be paid 
 to the province. The only thing new 
 in these arraimements is lu respect to the 
 lands. The maximum which will be paid 
 to the province at any time when the popu- 
 lation shall have reached l.limMKJO souls is 
 Sl,1:'."),iXiO ; that is to say, we pay to eacb 
 .',f these provinces the maximum sum or 
 .SI !•'.-, (Kill as cjuipeusatiini for the lands 
 which we retain in our possession. I sub- 
 mit ti) the House that this Is a very fair, a 
 ' verv moderate and very oqultable adjust- 
 ment indeed ; at all events. I so present it 
 to the Hoiue. and I think It will be so 
 forward e<l. 
 
 Mr. It. L. HOIIDEN. The maximum of 
 the siibsidv to tho provinees will be reached, 
 as I understand it, when the populatnm 
 : reaches tlie uumber of 1.200 000. The total 
 annual pavments of all kinds reach their 
 maximiiiii "when tho population reaches the 
 number of l.'JlHl.ObO, that Is, including both 
 the per capita allowaueo and the allowance 
 for land. Would the right lion, gentlemau 
 be good enougii to tell us .iust what that 
 maximum sum will be, including both the 
 subsidy and the allowance in respect of 
 land ? 
 
 Stir WII.l T.H) I.AITUIKU. The per capita 
 
 allowance will be ^(UO.OOO. 
 
 Mr. It. r.. BOHDEN. Hut the total of all 
 
 kinds. I'erhaps if the right hon. gentleman 
 
 has not the ligures it is uot important. 
 Sir WILFKID LAUItlKU. The total of 
 
 all kinds would be in the neighbourhood of 
 
 a little more than $2,000,000. 
 
 Now, Sir, it is my duty to advert to a 
 special feature of this Hill, a feature which 
 I wish we could have averted, and which 
 we introduced with great respect. The 
 special clause which I now call the attention 
 of the House to is as follows :— 
 
 The territory comprised In the said province 
 shall be and continue to bo subject to all such 
 provisions as shall have been enacted respect- 
 
 ; ins the Canadian Paeitic Railway Company. 
 
 I It is within the memory of the House, 1 
 
 I have no doulit, that tho contract which was 
 made with the Canadian I'acitic Hallway 
 contained a most extraordinary provision. 
 It was the loth section : 
 
 The Canadian Pacific Railway and all stations 
 and station crounds, workshops, buildings, 
 v.Trds and other property, rolling stock and ap- 
 purtenances required and used for the coa-itruc- 
 tion and working thereof and the capital stock 
 of the lompany shall be for ever free from tax- 
 
 'atiou by the Doa;lnlon, or by any province here- 
 
n 
 
 t 
 I 
 
 I 
 1 
 
 I 
 
 attcr 10 be cstablislnl or ly any inuiii. ipal 
 corporation therein j 
 
 Thiix it liai'l'Ons lUat in ISM tlio thm juir- | 
 liaiuent .Icllbcrately gave to ilio CauaiUau | 
 I'acitic Hailwav Conii'any, which it was In- i 
 corpora 1 1 up, an absolute cxpnii>tioii troiii i 
 f.Hloral, provincial and niiiiiicipal taxation. | 
 It was an extraordinary contract, but the , 
 fact stares us In the face, and it U in acconl- 1 
 ance with British precedent and liritisU i 
 policy that contracts have to be executed ] 
 whether they are good or bad, whether they 
 are advantageous or disadvantageous, m 
 IS84 or 1SS5, when the limits of the province 
 of Manitoba were extended westward, a 
 similar provision was introduced into the 
 Act of that time to exempt the compan.y 
 from taxation bv that provliii^e in the terri- 
 tory thus added to her limits. We have to do 
 the same thin^' today. It is a most lament- 
 able condition of thinj-'s. but all I have to s.iy 
 to the provinces. Is that 11m\v have to abide 
 bv the conditii,ns wbicli exist. In this re- 
 spect, ht.wever. ihey are in nu worse pf^'silion 
 than the llominioti government itself. A> e 
 stand todav. touse a common pbraso in the 
 same box. If the Minister of Finance were 
 to introdu.o a budget wherein bo lli.iuglit it 
 .'.dvantagemis for the Dominion of Canada i 
 lo impose taxation upon big corporations, j 
 upon the Crand Trunk nailway Company, i 
 upon the Baulc of Montreal, upon all the , 
 other banks and corporations we could do 
 so, but W" ould not lay a farthing of taxa- I 
 tion on the Canadian racilic Hallway Com- 
 pany. That is the result of the condition 
 of things which was enacted by this parlia- 
 ment twenty-four years ago. At that time 
 the opposition led by Jlr. Blake protested 
 vigorously against that provision. Mr. Charl- 
 ton moved the following amendment :— 
 
 That the contract respecting the Canadian 
 Pacinc Railway exempts perpetually the railwa> 
 ana all stations and station gi-O'Jnda. workshops 
 buildings, yards and other property, rolling 
 stock and appurtenances, required for the con- 
 struction and working ihoreof. and the capUal 
 stock of the company, from taxation by the 
 Dominion or by any other province hereafter 
 established, or by any municipal corpora on 
 therein. That the property of the corpora Ion 
 shall be in substance a gift from the public , 
 and its exemption from taM'ion is unjust, cre- 
 ates an unfair incidence of taxation, and gives 
 an undue advantage to the company over other 
 railway companies, calculated to Prevent the 
 construction of competing lines, and the con- 
 tract Is, in this respect, objectionable. 
 
 Unfortunately this amendment was de- 
 feated and that clause of the contract was 
 carried Into effect. We have to deal with 
 It to-day as we find it and the provinces as 
 well as the Uouiiulon have to abide by it. 
 All I can say at this moment is that if our 
 efforts and their efforts could rid the new 
 provinces of this incubus, we v^ould be only 
 too clad to give tUem all tbe help and assist- 
 ance in our power, but it Is not possible lo 
 do so, except by some method that I am not 
 able at tUe present time to find out. it 
 
 iiiiglit be bv the way cf leg;>lat:oii. it miglit 
 be tlirougb a mutual agreement, or by expro- 
 priation. There are some of those methods 
 perhaps open to us, but I have only to say 
 li this nioiiieiit. that, regrettable as it Is, 
 the Domiu on and the provinces the pro- 
 vin.es and the Dominion must abide by it 
 lovally until such time as it may be possible 
 tollnJl a remedy. That is all 1 have to say 
 upon the financial clauses of the contract. 
 
 I now come to the question of education, 
 and this miestion is perhaps uuder «'J'St- 
 I'lg circumstances the most important of all 
 that we have to I'cal with. There are evi- 
 I deuces not u few coming to us from all dir- 
 i ections. that the old passions which such a 
 i subject has :ilways arousixl are not. untor- 
 tunately, btnied : indeed, already, before 
 the poiicv of the government has been 
 known, before the subject is fairly before 
 the people, the government has been warned 
 as to its duty in this matter, and not only 
 warned but thi-eatened as well. 'Hie -^'overii- 
 ment has been warned, threatened from both 
 sidcsof this question, from those who believe 
 in separate schools and from t'aose who op- 
 pose separate schools. These violent appeals 
 are not a surprise to me. at all events, nor 
 do I believe they are a surprise to anybodv . 
 We have known by the experience of the 
 past within the short life of this confedera- 
 tion that public opinion is always inflam- 
 mable whenever (luestlons arise which 
 ever so remotely touch upon the religious 
 convictions of the people. It liehooves 
 us therefore all the more at this solemn 
 moment to approach this subject with care, 
 with calmness and deliberation and with the 
 firm i)urpose of dealing with it not only in 
 accordauco with tlie inherent princiiiles of 
 abstract justice, but in accordance with tlie 
 spirlt-the Canadian spirit of tolerance and 
 charitv, this Canadian siiirit of tolerance 
 and charity of which confederation is the 
 essence and of which in practice it ought to 
 be the expression and embodiment. Before I 
 proceed furtiier. before I pass the threshold 
 of this question. I put at onoe this iuquiry to 
 the House : What are separate schools I 
 I What is the meaning of the term ? Wlience 
 ' does it come, what was its origin and what 
 I was its object ? X'erhaps somebody will 
 say : What is the use of discussing such 
 I a question ? The term separate si-hools ought 
 ! to be familiar to every one. Sir, if any one 
 ' were to make such an observation and to 
 '. interpose such an objection, I would tell 
 I him that never was objection taken with 
 I less ground. Mankind Is ever the same. 
 ' New problems and new complications will 
 ahvavs arise, but uew problems and com- 
 plications, when they do arise, always re- 
 volTO within the same well beaten circle or 
 man's i)assiot>s, man's prejudices and man's 
 selfishness. History therefore should be a 
 safe guide, and It Is generally by apiieaMng 
 to the rast, by investlcatlng the problems 
 with which our I'athers had to deal, that 
 we may lind the solutions of the compllca- 
 
12 
 
 tloiis that face us. If we look l>arU U> the 
 lilstoi-y of our own country, if we liii'l what 
 Is tlie origiu of tlio separate schools, pcrbaps 
 lii-itory mar bo the piUar of cloud liy <lay 
 i.nd the pillar of tire l>y iii«Ul to show us 
 llie way and give us the ll«ht. 
 
 Separate schools, Sir, j;o liack to the oid 
 davs of the leslslatiu-e of Lower Canada. 
 In' these old days the system of schools in 
 my province, in my native province, Avas 
 rudimentary ; tliere was pracllcally no sys- 
 tem, but from year to year allowances were 
 made by the IcRlsIiiluro for the support 
 and ninlntonancc of schools. I need not : 
 s;iy that the population within the limits of ! 
 tli'e province of Lower Canada at that time 
 was, ca It is to-day. dlvidcl in ovIkIu and 
 In creed ; It was largely Uoman Catholic 
 with a snia'l I'loiestant minority. I am 
 plad to sav. and perhaps it would le per- , 
 nutted if, "in tiiis matter, lieinK myself n 
 sou of the province of Qne!>ec I indulficd in 
 wliat may be not nltosetlior iinpardonao'o 
 prido wlr.'n I say. tliat 1 am not aware tinit 
 the Protesjant minority ever had any ciiuse 
 of complaint of the treatment tliey had re- 
 ceived at the hands of tlie ma.iority. One 
 of the most eminent men of that day. one 
 of the most eminent colleairues of Sir .Toiin 
 Mncdouald at the time of confederation. 
 Sir Jolni Kosc, bore ample testimony to 
 what I have now stated. This Is wliat he 
 said spealiiuK In the confederation debate : 
 
 Now we. tlio EngliEh Protcslaiit minority of 
 Lower Canaili>, cannot lorROt that wliatevcr 
 right of separate raucation wc have, was ac- 
 corded to us in the mos* unrestricted way 
 bofor.-' tlio union of the provinces, when we 
 were in a minority and entirely In the hands 
 of the French population. Wo cannot forget 
 that In no wav was there any attempt to pre- 
 vent us educating our children Ir tho manner 
 we saw nt and deemed best : and I would be 
 untruo to what Is Just It I forrot to state 
 that the distribution of slate funds for educa- 
 tional pur' OSes was made in such a way as to 
 cause no complaint on the part of the minority. 
 
 The svstcm. ns I said, was rudimentary ; 
 It became more effective, more regulative, 
 after the union of the two provinces. Upper 
 and Lower Canada In 1841. 
 
 Mr. SrnOULE. Would that not seem to 
 be nn argument in favour of leaving It to 
 the provinces ? 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Order. 
 
 Sir WILI'UID LAURIEU. I shall come 
 to that presently and 1 hope I will be able 
 to satisfy my bon. friend (Mr. Sproule) if 
 he will have an open ear on this subject. 
 In 1811 the parliament of United Canada 
 passed a law for the establishment of 
 schools all over the province. Section 11 of 
 that statute provided that : 
 
 Whenevtr any number of the 'aliabitanta of 
 »ny township or parish professing a religious 
 faith different from that of tho majority of 
 the Inhabitants of such township or parish, 
 ■ball dissent from the regulaUonB, arrange- 
 
 menls, or proceedings oC ibe comuioa school 
 commissioners, wl'h reference to any common 
 school la such township or parish If. shall be 
 lawful for the inhabilautd sj dlsseatlnK. col- 
 lectiv.ly to si;;i:iry such diasont In wrltlns to 
 
 f th" cl tI; of the district council .... and 
 It ;-1kiI1 be l.iv;ful for such dU^scntins Inhabi- 
 tants .... to i.-'talillsh and maintain one 
 or more comnun schools in th -nanner and 
 suM^'it to the visual Ion, conditi' ;, rules and 
 
 ,ob.sati.iiri in this Act provided, with retcr- 
 
 i orco 10 o; h- r cumn'.on schools. 
 
 Section lU enacted tbat ; 
 No common sdiools shall be cntit''^ to any 
 apportionment of money out of the • immon 
 school fund ( xccpt on the terms and ci .uittons 
 follswiug : 
 
 And so forth. Xo exception was made, 
 whether tlicy were s;'i>aratc or common 
 schools. Hut it iippcar.s that sonic doubt 
 arose In Upper Canada as lo whether or not 
 separate schools were entitled to state aid. 
 In 1S"> a school law was adopted and this 
 section was passed. 
 
 Kvcry such separate scliooi shall be entitled 
 lo share In tlie fund annually granted by the 
 legislature of the province for the support of 
 common schools according to the avcra:;o 
 ■lumber of pupils attending such school during 
 Ih" twelve preceding months, or during tho 
 number of months that may have elapsed from 
 the establishment of said such school as com- 
 pared with the whole number of pupils attend- 
 ing the schools in the said city, town or 
 village. 
 
 In 1803 a law was pa.ssed upon this same 
 subject and that was tho last passed on the 
 subject by the old legislature of Canada 
 l)etore confederation, not to enact a new 
 principle but simply to confirm the prin- 
 ciple of separate schools. I remember very 
 well— I was a j^oung man in those days, a 
 law student In Montreal— tliat the discussion 
 of that law created a great deal of passion, 
 i)Ut it was passed by an overwhelming nia- 
 joritv in the parilaiiient of Canada. 
 
 Uefore I proceed, let mo make a few ob- 
 servations to show the origin and object of 
 all this legislation coneerning separate 
 schools. You find In this legislation the 
 terms constantly recurring of Protestant 
 or Catholic. I need not say that the Chris- 
 tian religion is not only a religion 
 founded on moral laws, prescribing moral 
 duties, but it is also a rellBion of dogmas. 
 Dogmas from the earliest times have occu- 
 I)icd just as strong and commanding n posi- 
 tion in the faith of all Christians ns morals 
 themselves. The reformation created ft 
 cleavage between Christians. The old 
 section remained Roman Catholics ; the new 
 called themselves Protestants. Between the 
 Roman Catholics and Protestants there Is a 
 deep divergence in dogmas. Between the 
 various Protestant denoniinc.tions there are 
 but small differences In dogmas ; the differ- 
 ences are more mutters of discipline than of 
 dogma. Therefore the old legislature of 
 Canada, finding a population of f^atliolios 
 and different denominations of Protestants 
 
13 
 
 nH -^Ixcrt tosethcr. nndlno; only one cause of 
 rleavnge between them In fllirlstiim fiillli. 
 tlmt is doKmiif. nllowed relitfloiir) teaolilni; 
 to be had in all the scbonls of our country, 
 so that every man could give to his owij 
 tliUd the religious tenets which he held 
 sometimes dearer than life. That is the 
 whole nieauliis of separate scliools. 
 
 I have .lust staled Unit in ISf.:! a l:i'v was 
 i.assed on this subject. At that timo. in 1S!"5. 
 there were two men In Canada wlio each 
 within Ills own circle and his own party, 
 maintained a soverol.sii sway. One was air. 
 Macdonnld, now known to history as Sir 
 •Tohn Jlacdonald, and the other -was Mr. 
 George Rrown. Mr. Macdonald was a sup- 
 porter of separate schools. lie gave to 
 tlie law of l,St;3 his vote and his influence. 
 Sir. George BroVn, on tlie contrary, was 
 a most dcterinlned opponent of sop.arate 
 sehools. He attacked the system relentless- 
 ly : he attacked it in his paper, on the floor 
 of the House of roniinons and upon the 
 In-stings. ne attacked It with nil the ve- 
 hemence of his strongly impassioned 
 nature. The arguments we hear today 
 against separate schools are not new ; they 
 were heard 5« years a.co. The arguments 
 we hear to-day are but the attenuated echo 
 of the strong denunciations of Mr. IJrown, 
 which were heard by our fathers two gen- 
 erations ago. But the views of Mr. Biown 
 did not prevail, and notwithstanding his 
 efforts, he was not in the House when 
 the law of 1803 pas.sed, which conflrmed to 
 the Roman Catholic minority of Upper Can- 
 ada the privilege of separate schools. In 
 view of the agitation then maintained by 
 Mr Brown in favour of representation by 
 population, it 18 perhaps not inopportune to 
 n,-ialyse that vote. The Bill of 1863 In 
 favour of separate schools was carried by 
 a vote of 80 against a minority of 22. Of 
 this minority of 22, 21 belonged to the 
 nrovince of Upper Canada, and of the ma- 
 jority of 80. 33 belonged to that province, 
 go that leaving the vote of T,owei- < m '•' ■ 
 aside taking only the vote of Upper Canada, 
 w-e find that the law of 1863 was carried by 
 a majority of the representatives of Upper 
 Ciinada at that time. This Is significant. 
 Mr. Brown at that time was carrying on the 
 stiong agitation which he had maintained 
 for years, and which he continued to main- 
 tain In favour, within the constitution of 
 that day, of representation by population. 
 
 Sir If we review the events of that period 
 of our history, we must all admit that the 
 constitution of mi. which tmlted Uppor 
 Canada and Lower (Mnada, was radicai..\ 
 faulty It was so constructed that It never 
 gave satisfaction to either province. Lower 
 Canada from the first looked upon It as an 
 instrument of oppression, designed to de- 
 prive her of some of those Institutions wlu. h 
 8fae held dearer thmi life. Yet "he It was 
 who in after years held to that consUtutlon, 
 and defended It against reforms which she 
 
 regarded as fraught with still greater ilan 
 gers to hers-elf. Upper Canada nccepteil 
 that constitution, not with any enthushnni. 
 but because it roilcveil her tor the lime 
 from serious flnancial euihiirrnssmcnts. Hut 
 Upper Canada, before many years had 
 elapsed common'-ca also to tiud herself op- 
 I>resscd by the clumsy clauses which It con- 
 tnined, and sought relief in the agita- 
 tion of Mr. Brown in favour of reprepen- 
 fjtlon by population. The radical fault of 
 the constitution of 1841 was that It 
 was neither federative nor legislative. It 
 united two provinces, but kept them as sep- 
 arate entities, gave them the same number 
 of na-mbers, iirovlded against an Increase 
 of representation, and allowed only a 
 single executive. This equality In repre- 
 sentation coupled with a single executive 
 was a defect which no expedients thereafter 
 could altogether overcome. As soon as Mr. 
 I'.'iplueau had returned from exile, he 
 attacked that feature of the constitution, 
 and demanded Its repeal. He was op- 
 posed by Mr. Lafontalno, not on principle, 
 but simply from expediency. Mr. Lnfon- 
 tiiine represented to him that Upper Canada 
 \v .uUI grow in population faster than Lower 
 Canada, l>ecause as Upper Canada was get- 
 ting an immigration which Ivower Cnnadi 
 did not. Upper Canada would soon be the 
 stronger province and therefore all the nr- 
 snnients which Mr. Paplneau advanced for 
 tlie repeal of that portion of the constitu- 
 tion onbehair of Tx)wer Canada, would react 
 against her. The predictions of Mr. I.<ifon- 
 talne ns to the movement of popiil:i- 
 tlou were soon fulfilled. Upper Canada be- 
 came the more populous province. Then Mr. 
 Brown took up the agitation where Sir. Pa- 
 plneau had left It, and carried It on for 
 years, with never abating vigour. He opened 
 a current In the public opinion of Upper 
 Canada, which yearly Increased In volume 
 until It became well nigh Irresistible ; 
 successive and short-lived administra- 
 tions succeeded one another, and the 
 (lav came In 18ai when there were two 
 hostile majorities, one from T/Ower c.)ii;ida 
 and one from Upper Canada, fa<>Ing each 
 other and unyielding. There was n dead- 
 lock, and the government of the Queen 
 was almost impossible If not actually im- 
 possible In the province of Canada. That 
 was Mr. Brown's opportunity, and he seized 
 It. it must be said, with alertness and cour- 
 age ; and whoever has to speak of those 
 events must admit that on that occasion Mr. 
 Brown rose to the highest stature of states- 
 niiinshlp. He was not satisfied to take 
 advantage of the occasion simply to obtain 
 tlie realization of the principle which he had 
 at heart, but he made It the basis for a union 
 ot all the British provinces on the conti- 
 nent of America. That Is his glory, and 
 that Is his chief title to fame— every Can- 
 adian !jcknowledsea It But Sir. the dUfl- 
 cultles of the task were simply enormous, 
 greater In my judgment, at all events, than 
 
u 
 
 tlio illfflcultles wbk'Ji Jircf in oonncctton S.'.tion !i;! of tlio Quebec vpsolutlons states 
 JiU. the crpntlon of tl.o Araorican union. U« follows, and 1 p-ay you. Sir, mark the 
 
 History has recordod liow jpalously. how 
 trnaclonnlr, the thirteen eolonles. after 
 ilnlr Joint efforts had wroii-.-ht their Inde- 
 pendence, each clunc to it* own Individual 
 life. IllRtory has recorded how reluctantly 
 each of the thirteen colonies at last conHcnt- 
 ed to part with those powers, the concession 
 of whii'li was neiTSsary to form a strong 
 central Kovernnient The im'cntlve which 
 l.rovpd effective, and wlilrli forced a final 
 consent, was the memory of dan;;ers 
 which thev had recently shared tojrether, and 
 the necessity of suardlnj: asainst a possible 
 recurrence of such danv'crs. No such sen- 
 timent abode In the Canadian colonies. 
 The various Canadian colonies were Iso- 
 lated from one another— Isolated by dis- ^ .- -- 
 
 tances and bv racial distinctions. The two ! union goes Into operation. 
 Kroui s which were ethnically connected, , ^^^^^^^ j ^.j,,. ,„„,.|. „jg language. The 
 Ontario and maritime provinces, were sep- ,,.j,i^,.,(„i.gg ^f Nova Scotia, Now Brunswiclj. 
 prated by lonir distances. The two Kroups , g,,,,,,^^,,. .^„j Ontario were Riven the power 
 which were KPOs:raphi.ally united. Kiitai t<> ,^ ,.^^^.^ ^^^^ ^^^ following purposes ; 
 
 and Quebec, >vcre ^PPa-t^d by he dccpe 
 
 lanifuape 
 
 Th<- loral legislature* fhall liave power to 
 make laws rrspectlDR the following aubjects : — 
 
 1. THt'^i taxation, and In New Brunswick the 
 Impofiilon of duties on the export of timber, 
 logs, masts, spars, deals and sawn lumber ; and 
 In .N'ova Scotia, of coals and oilier minerals. 
 
 2. Borrowing monej- on the credit of the pro- 
 vince. 
 
 Z. The establishment and tenure of local ofB- 
 ces, ami the appointment and payment of local 
 offlcer.-. 
 
 ■t. .\Ericiilturc. 
 
 G. Immigration. 
 
 K. Kdm-aMon : saving ihc riKhts and rrlvl- 
 kgrs whi.h the Protestant or rathollc minority 
 In both Canndas may possess as to their de- 
 nominational pc'hoola at the time when the 
 
 cleavat'e o'" difri'rrn.o of laiKin. In al 
 tl'ore was a stron;.- sense of lo.al 
 iirUle in all there was a strong assertion 
 of self iut.'rest. and in all there were 
 peculiar institutions as to the security of 
 which all dreaded to be laumhcd into the 
 unknown. This was particularly tiiie ol cd- 
 niiition in Lower Canada and lu I wor t an- 
 ■u'l In Lower Canada the Trotestaiit min- 
 ority had long enjoyed thei- own system o 
 
 Direct ta.xatlon. 
 
 Horrowing money. 
 
 The establishmr-nt and tenure of local ofUce. 
 
 .\griculture anJ colonization. 
 
 Ipou all these subjects their powers are 
 unliiniicd and they can do as they please, 
 without any check, except their responsi- 
 bility to the people of their respective pro- 
 vinces. Then ou the subject of education 
 oritv had long enjoveii inei'- own s.>mcu. ui , the legislatures of Nova Scotia and New 
 Be iirite schools lii T-pi)er Canada the Ro- r.runswick can do as they please and are 
 ni'iii 'citiiolii' minoritv had just secured a ] not respousiblc to any oue except to the 
 vimilir'svsto-n These' two minorities feared . peojile. But when we come to the piovinces 
 t at in the new .M>nslilinion, under the sepa- of Ontario and Quebec, we find that Uic 
 ration of legislative powers which must powers of these two provinces are limited 
 
 .,,IZ the richts of ea.h might he put in as regards education. Neither the legislature 
 
 eoi'mlv bv a hostile majority. The min of Ontario nor that of Quebec was given 
 oritv of Lower Canada felt perfectly secure 
 
 under the then existing condition of things 
 
 because those of their own creed and race 
 
 were in the majority in United Canada. 
 
 The Uoinau Catholic minority In Upper 
 
 Canada feared also the constitution because 
 
 it would be deprived of the powerful alli- 
 ance of those of their own origin in another 
 
 province Under such circumstances, what 
 
 was to be done? How could a scheme of 
 
 confederation be devised so .-s to ensure 
 
 the support of all parties and socions of 
 
 the community ? It is useless to speculate 
 
 as to what might have been done. It is 
 
 suflklent to say that means were found to 
 
 insure to the minority In each province, the 
 
 free exenise of Its rights, and that means 
 
 was to declare that in the provinces of 
 
 T'pper and Lower Canada, the rights of the 
 
 minoritv, which were to be entrusted to 
 
 the respective legislatures of these pro- 
 vinces, were to be above the control of the 
 
 majority. I^et me recall to the House the 
 
 Quebec resolutions which were adopted and 
 
 w'llch were the basis and the charter under 
 
 which the Canadian parliament now lives 
 
 and the Canadian nation has been formed. 
 
 power to iiass any law which might preju- 
 Oiclallv afftvt the rights of the minority In 
 either "pi'ovince. So long as this constitution 
 endures tlie schools of the minority In Quebec 
 and Ontario must likewise endure. Yet, re- 
 markable as is this enactment, it Is per- 
 haps still more remarkable, if we remember 
 that one of the men who assented to this 
 llmilation to the power of the province of 
 Ontario was Mr. Ocorge Brown himself — 
 Mr. (ieorge Browu who said again and 
 again that he was opposed to separate 
 schools, who had carried on a crusade of 
 years against separate schools In his pro- 
 vince. If you look only at the surface of 
 things, without trying to find the Inspinttlon, 
 it is indeed remnrkable that Mr. Brown, 
 who. with Sir John Macdouald was the 
 central figure, agreed ihat the powers of the 
 legislature of his own province should be 
 liiutted In that respect. We need not marvel 
 if Mr. Brown was attacked and assailed for 
 the action he then took. He was assailed 
 perhaps by some of his own disciples whom 
 he had taught to object to separate schools 
 as strongly as he did himself. Mr. Brown 
 defended his course In the confederation de- 
 
u 
 
 bat#, or rather be explained his polloj-, be- 
 cause he wai under no necessity to defend 
 his course ; and I bep on this occasion to 
 commend his language to those who to-day 
 Imve forgotten confederation, when he came 
 to discuss the 4:trd resolution. ITe spoke as 
 follow* ; — 
 
 Tlie people of Vppor Canada will have .ino!h«r 
 li'Kiilaturo for their local matters and will no 
 longer have to betake thpmsclvcf to Quebec 
 for leave to open a road, to le'cct a county 
 10*11. or appoint a coroner. But 1 am told that 
 to this general principle of placing all local 
 matturj under locaL control, tn exception bai 
 beiu made In regard to the commou schools. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 The clause complained of Is as follows : — 
 « K;l:ic^itlon. saving the rights and privileges 
 which the Protestant or Catholic minority In 
 both Canadas may possess as to their denomi- 
 national schools Bt the time when the union 
 ROCS Into operation. 
 
 Now, continued Mr. Itrovn ;— 
 I need hardly remind the Hou-ic that I have 
 always opposed and continue to oppose the Hys- 
 tem of sectarian education, so far as the public 
 chest Is concerned. I have never bai any 
 hesitation on that point, I have never been able 
 to see why all the people In the province, to 
 whatever sect they may belong, should not send 
 their children to the same schools to receive 
 the ordinary branches oP Instruction. I regard 
 the parent and tlie pastor as the best rollBlous 
 Instructors— and so long as the religious faith 
 of the children la not Interfered with, and 
 ample opportunity afforded to the clergy to give 
 religions Instruction to the children of their 
 nocks, I cannot see any sound objection to mlxea 
 schools. But while in the conference and else- 
 where I have always maintained this view, and 
 always given my vote against sectarian public 
 schools, I am bound to admit, as I have always 
 admitted, that the sectarian syst.'m carried to 
 the limited extent It has yet been In Upper 
 Canada, and confined as It chiefly is to cities 
 and towns, has not been a very great practical 
 injury. The real cause of a line was that the 
 admission of the sectarian principle was there, 
 and that at any moment it might be extended 
 to such a degree as to split up our school sys- 
 tem altogethor. There are about a hunJred 
 separate acbaols In Upper Canada, out of some 
 4 000, and all Roman •Catbollc. But If the Ro- 
 man Catholics are entitled to separate schools 
 and to go on extending their operations, so are 
 the memtMrs of the Church of England, tho 
 rresbyterlans, the Methodists, and all other 
 sects. No candid Roman Catholic will deny 
 this for a moment ; and there lays the great 
 danger to our educational fabric, lest the sepa- 
 rate system might gradually e.xtend Itself until 
 the whole country was studded with nurseries 
 of sectarianism, most hurtful to the best In- 
 terests of the province and entailing an enor- 
 mous 'expense to sustain the host of teachers 
 that so prodigal a system of public Instruction 
 must Inevitably entail. Now, it is known to 
 every hen. member of this House "lat an Act 
 was passed In 18C3 as a final settlement of this 
 sectarian controversy. I was not in Quebec at the 
 time, but If I had been here, I would have voted 
 against that Bill because U extended the facili- 
 ties for establishing separate schools. It had, 
 however, this good feature, that It was accept- 
 ed by the Roman Catholic authorities and car- 
 r'ed to parliament as a Bnal compromise of the 
 
 question In I'rrcr Canada. When, therefore, It 
 was rropoacd that a provision should be insert- 
 ed in the contedcrailon scheme to bind that 
 contract of l^iS and declare it a final sritie- 
 ment. so that we should not be compelled, as 
 we have been since ISiS, to stand constantly to 
 our arms, auaiting fresh attacks upon our com- 
 mon school system, the proposition seemed to 
 ma one that was not rashly to be rejected. 
 (Hear, hear.) I admit that, from my point of 
 view, this Is a blot on the scheme before the 
 House ; It Is confessedly, one of the concessions 
 from our side that had to be made to secure 
 this great measure of reform. But assuredly. 
 I, for one, have not the slightest hesitation in 
 accepting It as a necessary condition of the 
 schema of union, and doubly acceptable must It 
 be In the eyes of hon. gentlemen opposite, who 
 were the authors of the Bill of 1863. (Cheers.) 
 But It was urged that though this arrangement 
 might perhaps be fair as regards Upper Canada, 
 It was not 60 as regards Lower Canada, for 
 there wore matters of which tho British popula- 
 tion have long complained, and some amend- 
 ments to the existing School Act were required 
 to secure thorn equal justice. Well, when this 
 point was raised, gentlemen of all parties Iq 
 Lower Canad.a at once expressed themselves 
 priparcd to treat It In a frank and conciliatory 
 manner, with a view to removing any inJuaUce 
 that raigUt bo shown to exist ; and on (his 
 understanding thn educational c'ause was adopt- 
 evl by the conference. 
 
 Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE. That destroys the 
 power of the local leglslaluic to legislate upon 
 the subject. 
 
 Hon. Mr. BROWN. I would like to know how 
 much power tho hon. gentleman has now to 
 legislate upon It 7 Let him Introduce a Bill to- 
 day to annul the contract of 1863 and repeal all 
 the sectarian School Acts of Upper Canada, and 
 how many votes would ho got for It ? Would 
 twenty members vote for It out of the 130 who 
 compoie this House ? If the hon. gentleman 
 had been struggling for fifteen years, as I have 
 been, to save the school system of Upper Can- 
 ada from further extension of the sectarian 
 element, he TOuld have precious little diminu- 
 tion of power over It In this very moderate 
 compromise. And what says the hon. gentleman 
 to leaving the British population of Lower Can- 
 ada In the unrestricted powers of the local 
 legislature ? Tho common schools of Lower 
 Canada are not as in Upper Canada— they are 
 almost entirely non-sectarian, Roman Catholic 
 schools. Does the hon. gentleman, then, desire 
 to compel the Protestants of Lo-.er Canada to 
 avail themselves of Roman Catholic lustltutions 
 or leave their children without Instruction ? 
 
 Let us pause a moment to consider this 
 language. Mr. Brown did not believe In 
 separate schools. He had struggled all 
 his life against that system. But a great 
 object had to be achieved, a nol)le concep- 
 tion had to be realized, an Inspiring Idea 
 had to be made a fact, and In order to 
 reach that gnpreme goal, differences of 
 opinion had to be reconciled, fears anjl ap- 
 I.reliensions had to be removed, mlsgivIiMS 
 had to be alleviated, and above all tj>e 
 rights of conscience, the tender rights of 
 conscience, had to be placed In aa firm a 
 liositlon of security aa they preyloialy e^- 
 I joyed, 80 that no one could object, and all. 
 without regard to origin or cread, could 
 
la 
 
 kIvo u clu'orfiil iimJ cnUiiislastic hUiiport to 
 111!' MOW coiislitiillon. 
 
 Sir, Mr. Itronu told lilii fiicnds tint lio 
 iii<l not Ix'llovo ill »o|uiraft' hcIiooU ; hut 
 tluTc wore fellow-cltlzens of liis in On- 
 hull) i'.iiil 111 yiiclicc who bellovi'il In sciianite 
 SI liools, ami, In onlcT to remove their ob- 
 jertlons and win tliolr lodiioratlmi In tlie 
 silu'ino whleli was Iho Kriat work of liis 
 life, lie ;i;;reed to make the saerlllie of Ills 
 own eonviclitins. In order lo aehi;>ve the 
 jji-eat object he li^d at heart, he agreed to 
 fasten iiiion h!s own provlnee a system in 
 «hii'h lie (lid not believe, but in whieh 
 ol hers did believe. Sir. for more than twenty 
 years Mr. Ilro^^Il has been in his Ki'ave ; 
 but Ills memory is not dead. .\iid If his 
 teaehinss and his spirit be still alive, it Is 
 surely In the hearts of that sLiiineh yeo- 
 manry of Ontario who K.ive him siicli e<>u- 
 stant support during the years of lils poli- 
 tical stnipgles. They followed him devot- 
 edly In Ills erusnde apalnst separate scho'ds. 
 Till .V followed liliii even more devotedly, 
 when he asked them to iieecpt separate 
 schools, to sacrlllce fholr o\mi opinions, and 
 Lis own. nil.')!! the .iltar of the new country 
 which It was his ambition to establish on 
 this portion of the North American coiitin- 
 pnt. If It were my i)rivi|p<re that my iioor 
 words nilirht reaili that staunch yoomaniy 
 of Ontario, I would remind them that the 
 work of coincdcrntion Is not yet tiiilshed ; 
 I would tell llioni that we me now enjrased 
 In advancing it ; and I would ask them 
 whether wo are now to reverse our course, 
 or whether we are not to coTifliuie to work 
 it out to eiiiiipletiiin on the lines laid down 
 by the great leader himself. 
 
 Now, Sir, such was the condition of things 
 nt the time of confederation. Hut I shall 
 be told that this exception npidles to On- 
 tario nud Quebec alone, and not to the 
 other provinces. Sir. that is true. Amwigst 
 the four lu-ovinces then uuiied. Ontario and 
 Quebec alone had a system of separate 
 fchools. lint I reminded the House a mo- 
 ment ago that It was not the intention of 
 the fathers of coiifodoration. It was not the 
 intention of Sir .lohn Macdouald or Mr. 
 Itrowii to limit confeder;.liou to the narrow 
 bounds It had in 1S07. They had made pro- 
 vision iu tlie very instrument of confe<lera- 
 tioii, to extend It over the northern part of 
 the continent ; they had made provision to 
 take in British Columbia. Xewfoundlaud 
 and Prince Kdward Island ; they had made 
 provision to take in also the Northwest Ter- 
 ritories, v.hich were then uninhabited, but 
 which now have a teeming population 
 and are at our doors asking admission. 
 Is it reasonalile to suiipose, if the Con- 
 federation Act recognizes that other pro- 
 vinces were to come into confederation simi- 
 larly situated to Ontario and Quebec, that 
 the same privileges should not be given to 
 the mluority as were given to the minority 
 In Ontario and Quebec V What would have 
 been the value of the invitation to enter 
 
 iMiifederalion. If the provinces Invited to 
 enter, had been t..M that the security to the 
 minority given to Ontario and Quebec wan 
 a iirivilege which they need not exjiect from 
 us V Section -li! oC the Quebec re.solutions 
 has become section !•:! of the Itrltlsh North 
 .\mcrica Act. and !■* no longer contined to 
 i tjuebec and ontu.io. Here it Is : 
 
 In and for catli province th? legislature may 
 o.\cluaivcly ni:>ke laws in relation to education, 
 tuliject .TiiJ ;r I online to the following proTl- 
 i -"loii :— 
 
 1. Nothiuf! in ar.y such l.iw shall prejujlclalljr 
 iffoct any right or privilege! with respect to da- 
 nomlnational scliools which any cUss of per- 
 sona have by law In the province at the union. 
 
 So, Sir, now whenever a province comes 
 here knocking at this door, a.skiug to be 
 adiulttiil into coiifi deration. If In that pro- 
 i vliice tlierc exists a ;iysteiu of separate 
 schools, the British :;ortli America Act has 
 I provided that the same guarantee we give 
 I to the minority In Quebec and Ontario shall 
 also be given to the minority in that pro- 
 vince. Shortly after vonfcderatiou had boeu 
 , established, that Is, in the year 1870, the 
 I I'arllameiu of Canad i had an oiiportunity 
 : of niipiylng the do( trine contained iu the 
 ; liritlsh North Amerita Act In the creation 
 ^ of the province of >Ianltoba. Until its aU- 
 I iiiission into the Uo-ninlon. JIanltoba had 
 no regular government. It had been loosely 
 adininlstered by the Hudson Bay Com- 
 liaiiy. There had boen some schoo'ts Iu it, 
 malntaiued by such authority as there wag. 
 There had been seiiarate schools maintained 
 by Itomaii Catholic missionaries. It was 
 the intention of parliament to give the 
 mluority the system that they had before 
 confederation ; and, so marked was their 
 intcutiou. that instead of accepting without 
 iiualiacalion the wo'-ds of section S)3 of the 
 r.ritish North America Act, ' right or privi- 
 lege with respect tn denominational schools 
 which any class of persons have by law in 
 the province at the union,' they made It 
 read ' by law or practice In the province at 
 the union.' It turned out, as determined by 
 .judicial authority, that the province of 
 -Manitoba, when it entered confederation, 
 had no system of pchools either by law or 
 practice. It followMl, as a conseriuence, that 
 the power of the iirovince of Manitoba with 
 i regard to the subject of education was aa 
 i-emiilete as that of the province of Nova 
 I Scotia or the province of Now Brunswick. 
 I Tills Is a iiriiiciple which was not understood 
 at the time by hon. gentlemen opposite 
 when they wore on this side of the House, 
 Thei? was tbe fact, the positive fact— the 
 i:ower of the province of Manitoba with 
 regard to education was as unshackled as 
 that of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. 
 In 1875, as I stated a moment ago, Mr. 
 Mackenzie introducejl an Act for the govern- 
 ment of tiie Northwest Territories, and tn 
 this Act the i»arliament of Canada, which, 
 at that time, had among Its members some 
 of the ablest men who ever sat in a Cana- 
 
17 
 
 ilian pnr]I:iiiii'iit- Sir Joliii MacdoimM, Mr. 
 Mackcuzic. Mr. Bluko, Sir Cliiirlos Tupper 
 nnd a sroro of others— iiniiiiimously. doUlior- 
 atoly nnd with tlioir eye.s open, Introdurwl 
 Into tUp Xorlliwpst Torrltorli.'s tlie gyfitcni of 
 sppurate scbnoU. And not only thnt, I>ut 
 tlio parliament of Cnnadn. four time* nw- 
 ies8lvoly-ln 1880, In 1885, In 1»>8(1 and In 
 lS!)8-rtollherutely nnd with their oyos open, 
 ratified the system of separate HeLoo 
 the Territories. 
 
 Mr. SPROULE. I would like to ask h.-re 
 one question, If the right lion. Kcntlonian 
 will allow ine 7 
 
 Sir WILKnU) LAUUIKR. Yes. 
 
 Mr. SI'IlOULiJ. The riptht hon. Ben- 
 (leman pivo the ITdmsc to underatnnd 
 that Hon. Georjce Urowii KUpported the 
 principle of separate scliools. May I ask If 
 It Is not true that Mr. Brown, in ISTo, op- 
 pose'! the principle of authorizing separate 
 schools In the Territories, voted against it 
 and Eavo his reasons ? 
 
 Sir WILKRII) I.AURIKIt. I am delight- 
 ed that my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) has 
 asked mo tliat question. In 1875, wlien the 
 Bin to which I have referred went thronsh 
 parliament, Mr. Ilrown who was a member 
 of one branch of tills parliament, opimsed 
 the Introduction of tlie new clause in thnt 
 Bill providing for sep;irat(> schools. lie 
 opposed it with all his uilclit. He told 
 the House that he had nut changed his 
 mind upon the subject, but he told the 
 House also that If the principle of separnte 
 schools was Introduced, then, nccordlns to 
 the terms of the constitution. It was Intro- 
 duced for all time to come. I am deliglited 
 that my hon. friend brought my attention 
 to this, b«nu8e really the whole subject 
 Is contained In tlie question of my hon. 
 friend. We have to decide this problem 
 upon the very terms of the legislation which 
 was Introduced In 1875. Let me give to my 
 hon. friend nil the Information to which he 
 Is entitled, nnd which I fnin wonid hope 
 will fall upon ravournl)lo ground ; I will 
 give him the whole history of that matter. 
 Mr. Mackenzie himself Introduced the Bill 
 lu 1875. The Bill as first liitroducrd made 
 no mention of separate schools : but after 
 he had sat down nnd when Sir John A. 
 Macdonnid bad spoken on the subject, Mr. 
 Blake rose and brought this very subject 
 of separate schools to the attention of the 
 House, and he did It with a belgbt and 
 breadth of thought which I hope will com- 
 mand the admiration of my hon. friend. 
 This Is what Mr. Blake sold : 
 
 The task which the mlnletry bad set (or llseK 
 was the most Important It was possible to 
 conceive. To (otmct primary institutions under 
 which we hope to ace hundreds of thousands, 
 and :hc more sasgutne arnon^ us think mtUions 
 of men and families settled and flourishing, 
 vas one of the noblest undertakings that 
 could be entered upon by any legislative body, 
 and it was no smal! indication of tho power 
 
 and true pasltioa of this Dominion that parlia- 
 ment should be encaxod to-day in that Impor- 
 tant lank. He agreed with tbo hon. member 
 for KinKsion that th)< iiisk waa on* that re- 
 quired lime, con ildcratlin and deliberation, 
 nnd they mii^t tuk' tar- that no false steps 
 were made In such »orl, H« did not agre* 
 Hlib that richt hon. gcnileman that the gov- 
 I rumont ought to re.nial his errors. The right 
 lion, gentleman bad tried the inititutions (or 
 the Norlliwiiit Torritorlei which he now 
 asked tho iluuse to frame, and (or the same 
 rensTn as ho had given to-day-th«t It would 
 be letter fur the Dominion government to 
 iiiep matters In their own hands and decide 
 nbnt was best (or tho future. Ho (Mr. Blake) 
 bflievrd that it was CBstntial to our obtaining 
 a largo Immigration to the Northwest that 
 wo Blio'tld tell the pioiile beforehand what 
 thiiBo rlihts were to be In tho country in 
 which wo Invited thorn to settle. It was In- 
 teresting to the people to know that at the 
 very earliest moment there waa a sufflclont 
 n?!i;reRatn o( population within a reafinaliie 
 distance, that aggregation would bave a vole* 
 In the solf-Rovernmcnt o( the territories, and 
 he believed the Dominion government was wise, 
 (allhough the measure might be brought down 
 very Into this session and it might be found 
 Impo.iSible io give it due eonslderatlnni In de- 
 tcrmlnin!? In ai'.van.-i.. of settlement what the 
 character o( the institutions of tho country 
 should ho In which we Invite people to settle. 
 
 IIo regarded it as essential under the elreum- 
 stan» -s of the country, and in view of the dell- 
 I'eration during the last few day* that a 
 gener.ii principle should be Inld donn In the 
 i mil with Tspect to public Instruction. He did 
 I believe that we ought not to introduce Into 
 I that territory the heart burnings and diCRcul- 
 ties with which certain other portions of thia 
 Dominion and other countries bad been aflllcted. 
 It seemed to him. having regard to the fact 
 that, as far as wo could expect at present, tb* 
 general character o( that population would b* 
 somewhat analogous to the population of On- 
 tario, that there should be some provision la 
 the con-stilution by which they should havo 
 conferred upon them tho same rights and 
 privileges in regard to religious instruction as 
 those possessed by the people of the province 
 of Ontario. The principles of local ».flf- 
 govcrnmcnt and the settling of the question 
 of public Instruction, It seemed to him, ought 
 to bo the cardinal principles of the measure. 
 
 Now let me call renewed nttentlon to 
 these words of Mr. Blake : ' I regard It as 
 essential under the circumstances of the 
 country, nnd In view of the dellberntlon of 
 the last few dny.i.' What were the deliber- 
 ations of tbose last few days In the House at 
 Commons to which Mr. Blake alluded ? 
 ; Why, Sir, It wns n resolution on thnt very 
 I subject of separate schools, separate 
 I schools In the province of New Brnnswick, 
 where at that time, nnd by the constltntlon, 
 I the principle of separate schools was not 
 ' adopted ; the minority wns asKlng for 
 .separate schools, nnd came to this House 
 for relief, but the House would not grant 
 the relief because they would not Invade 
 the constitution. Mr Bloke said that in- 
 stead of having such a state of things In the 
 Northwest Territories It would be better to 
 
u 
 
 Klvf to tlip proidf ilip i-ci!Kl.>ii« iiistrn. lion 
 Hint nil claMPtt might want. Now wlint »«• 
 Mr. Mac'keDXIu'i utiswer to tiila 7 
 
 A« to tb« lubject of public ln»truclloii, It 
 lilil not In the flrit place attrtet bla attention, 
 but wbi'D he came to tho a'lhjei t of local ta»a- 
 I'.on he wai reiulnUia of I'. Not barlnR had 
 lime before to ln»prt a . lauae on the lubJect, 
 he propnacd to do so nhcn the- Uill mat In 
 (oriiMiUlci'. The ihiiisc proviad Ihal iho 
 Mcutenant Governor bjr aud with tho conient 
 of his council or assembly, as tho cast- mlfrbt 
 be. should pass all nwicisary onlinaiir' s lu 
 reBpcct of education, but It would bo specially 
 provlflcd that tho ni,ii"iiiy of the r.iicpaycrs 
 mlKhl establish such «rbools and Imimur >^u' li 
 nccesiary aascssmerit nst they mlnht think Dt i 
 and that the miiinrlij cjf iho rati pjj i r.i. v hi • lir r 
 I'rotestant or Humaii •'jtholli'. luUht osjbllsh 
 Hi'Paratc m-honlt ; ai: l i<ii,h r;rfpayi;i would 
 be llabio only to yii. Ii rdui atloiicil assr'sm-n'S 
 MS ihiy inlitlii uiipo,-,. upon IhonneUi-n. Thin he 
 hoped would meet the objection offered by tho 
 hon. mi. nber fur South Uruie. There mluht bo 
 somo amendments found niiossary In tho Hill, 
 but he thouKht It would be found generally 
 speaking to meet tho requlren-cnls of tho 
 cnuiitry. However, the rovi rnmont would bo 
 very (?lnd to avail themselves as far as possible 
 of such Kvift>',fstlons as might be made in ihim. 
 
 Wlicii tlip mil was in c oiniulltri' Mr. Mi\i'- 
 lu'iizle iiiDposoil tills iliiiise. whicli was In- 
 sertotj ill the lllll, not one iiicinliir objcct- 
 liiff to it. iielllior 8lr .Tolni A. Xracdonnld. 
 nor Sir Clmrlo:< I'lippof. nor uiiy memiicr 
 on tho Kovcniiueiit sklo of tho House : 
 
 When and so soon aa any system of taxation 
 shall be nlopted in any district or portion of 
 the N'nrtliwes' Territories, the Lietiter.ant 
 Governor and council or assembly, as the case 
 may be, shall pass all necessary ordinances lu 
 r"spe(' of eiluratlon. and It shall therein be 
 always provido.l thai a majority of ratepayers 
 In any district may establish sich schools 
 therein a.s Ihry may think lit, and make 
 tho necessary afsessni"nt ami ra'i'i thf>r.'- 
 for. and further that the inii;ority of rate- 
 payers therein whether I'rotestant or nunian 
 Catholics, niay establish soiarate suhools there- 
 in, and that in such case (!•■ ratepayers cstab- 
 liEhlnK surh I'rotestant or Roman Catholic 
 separate pihnols shall be liable only to nsscss- 
 miiit of sir, h rates as they impcso upon ihem- 
 selves in ret^poct thtref. 
 
 Now this Mill Went over i,, ih,. other 
 hniiieli of tlip IPKi-slatiup. ami tli'r.' also I 
 will givp to iiij- hon. fripiui who iiitemipteU 
 uie a uionipiit ago, tiip wliolo hislcry of tho 
 (lebatp upou thi.s Bill. Mr. Alliens, who was ! 
 
 lu maintain sctaoola lo «hkb tkty reuld got 
 I'onsclrotloualy irod their children. Our nbol* 
 syairm of government was laied upon that 
 ^ouDd principle. 
 
 .Now. Sir, I «lll ^-Ive ti. iii.v hon. frleiiil 
 llip u|iliiloii of the Hon. Mr. Ilrown. lint, 
 lipfore iioiiit: so, let nip t:l\e hliii tlip opin- 
 ion of a in'oiiilnent meiiilM-r of IiIh own 
 piirt.v. sir AU-xiiiuler fan,|ilKll. who wni 
 then leader of llip foiKervative ii.irty In thp 
 .Spiuitp. Sir Ale.xniidir CaniplpplI spoke ii« 
 fiillinw : - 
 
 It would be much to be regretted If the 
 amendmi lit passed. Tho object of the Ulll was 
 to cstablliih and perpetuate In the Northwest 
 Tirrllor: s th.- same nyn-'ni as iirevailci in 
 Ontario and Quebec and which had workod so 
 «e:i In the Interests of pea,., and harmony with 
 the different populations of those provinces. 
 He thought the fairer course, and the better 
 "11", for all races and creeds, was to adopt the 
 !-iit-k'i3tlon of Iho government and enable 
 prople to cslahllsh sepnrato schools In that 
 II rrltory and thus prevent the Introduction of 
 • vils from which Ontario and Quebec had 
 ■iffeiiij, but had Judieiou.^Iy rid thumsolves. 
 
 I will now «!vo to ni.v hoii. frlona the 
 liimiiam. i>( Ml-. Ilrown, iliis Is it : 
 Th" Rafe way for us wa-i lo lei pa.h province 
 
 :,',".'"" '" ,""■'" "'■■'"''•-• This eoiiMiry was 
 li.lej by peopl,! of all da^-.s and eneds and 
 I '..re would be no end of lonfu.slon if each 
 ■ias-i had to have Its o»n ], .Miliar school sys- 
 t'm. It had been said this clause was put In 
 IV ''"t^P,';""'''"''" °' 'he Pror.stanta against 
 the Calhollcs, the latter b.MnR the mo^t numer- 
 ■)iis. But he. speaking for the Protestants, was 
 in a position to say that v.u dil not want that 
 M-Qtectlon. 
 
 Later on .Mr. Itnnvn sp.ikc as follows : 
 Hon. Mr. Brown said he concurred with what 
 had fallen from his hon. friend.^ on tho treasury 
 benches, and from hon. gtntlamen who had 
 spoken on tho amendment, v.Uh respect to the 
 propriety of allowing separate schools. But tho 
 iiuestlon was not whether those schools were 
 r:::ht or wronc. good or bad, but as to whether 
 it was wi-ie for this country to deal with this 
 question. He quite aimlttcd the Importance of 
 the IJ--3UP which had been ni:' I— whether this 
 matter should be referred to the provincs In- 
 tereslel for settlement, or be brought to Iho 
 iJomlaion legislature. 
 The moment 
 
 — continiicd .Mr. Urowu 
 
 this Alt passed and the Northwest became 
 
 part of the union, they came under tho Union 
 
 ...-^UL.- ui.i.ii lu,., uui. .ur. .v.Keiis wao was Act. and under the provlsio-is with regard to 
 thou a prominent iiiomber of that Iwdy, separate schools. regard to 
 
 moved to striko out tho odiu-aliun ilaust 
 nltoRptluT. Uo was iinswurod bv mv hon. 
 friend and colleague of today, the Secrct- 
 nry of State, who thru as iiow wa.s the 
 loader of the Senate : 
 
 Any gentleman would have to admit that It 
 was the greatest possible relief to the people 
 of Ontario that this question was settled for 
 them, and was not. as In some of the other 
 provinces, a source of constant discord. He 
 was one of those who maintained that parents 
 bad a right to educate their children as they 
 plraaed, and that they ought not to be taxed 
 
 r 
 
 I Sir, I commeud this ianguage to my hon. 
 friend. I coinmond tills language to every 
 
 I man in this House. There are to-day, as 
 there were tlien, men in this House and out 
 of it who do not believe in separate schools, 
 but, as Mr. Brown said, the (jnestlon Is not 
 whether that system is good or bad ; that 
 is uot the question to-dav. that 1« not the 
 iiuestion of which Senator Brown spoke, It Is 
 not the question with which we have to deal 
 liut we have another duty to perform. Mr. 
 Brown, on the floor of the other branch of 
 
19 
 
 tlic IcKhlaturp, luUI tliiir liix .ijiiiroiiH In ro- 
 K.iitl to lipiiiirnte n.hooli luul not . ImnKeil. 
 He Nt'lU pniril. nll.v tliU li> ili<> imi llnmoiit of 
 • .lUiiilu : llic'rc l-» a iiciv tciiitmy, ilipro is 
 viiBiii soil wiifie tliiTo U iiu iioimliiiloii. I»i> 
 i.ot liilroilii 
 
 Mliid he will iiiiiliT-liMiil ilii- rcnMiitiliis of 
 Mr. Ilmwii. Tliiit li llii- p«i«lil.in timt we have 
 l)cfi)i(. IIS tniliiy. I mil nut lirrc to ndvot'iiti- 
 K'|i:ilMI«' wlicMiN iiH ;iii iilistrilit |ir<i|>i>«llli)li 
 but no linvr inticHlii ri\ Into lliU Hill lUt- two 
 
 .Mr. sritofi.i: 
 
 Iran — 
 
 I'lie right lioii. yt'iitle- 
 
 J^lr WIMKIK I..\n{II-U. 
 iiitrodiucd ilitii tlilr. Bill I 
 fr end's pnrdon. 
 
 Xu"', «(• li:ive 
 bi';; iiiy lion. 
 
 Mr. ^^r^Ol•I.I:. I i.m oijl.v di'>'iroii.H of 
 ivHklng one olisf>rviitl..n In regnnl to a part 
 of Jlr. Hrowns speech wlikli uiorc dlrottly 
 relers to this subject iind wlii.h tlit- lion. 
 KeDtleniiin has not quoted. 
 
 Sir Wir.FKH) LACRIKIt. If thai is the 
 liiteiruption of my hon. friend it was hardly 
 worth while. I do not want to ini«lpad the ' 
 Ilonse. Can be find anything else than that i 
 Mr. Brown siibniitted the opinion that the 
 niouiont separate s.hools were Introdureil 
 
 Dtllutlon. with I Up Brlll.-li North AmerU-n 
 Ai't, and I coiiiiiK'nd It even to the biased 
 JuilKiiieiit of my luiii, friend. However, let 
 nie put Ji ii"'"<">iii to "•.■■ boil, friend : If 
 We Here in the year |M17 ami not In the year 
 IfHl.V and. If \\c had to Introduce Into this 
 Dominion the iirovliu'es of Allierta and Sas- 
 katchewan, would my hon. friend tell me 
 il'at these provinces would not hove the 
 s.ime rlKhts and prIvileKes in rei;anl to se- 
 parate schools as were granted to Ontario 
 and Quebec ? Would he tell ine that when 
 you say to Ontario and Quebec : You shall 
 have your separate schools, .Mberta and 
 Saskatchewan should be denied that prlvl- 
 h'KC ? The thing Is preposterous. I,et us 
 rise above such considerations. In every- 
 thing that I have snid I have refrained 
 
 they come under the \ct of ni.lon under i '^'■°"' "">'»« " "'"«'<• "O'""! "DOn the ab- 
 
 e'aile'praud .ha h.;' were he?; "o I e ' ^''■'"^^'i "l','"''"'"' %', """""•" "'T'"- ' .""■ 
 naintalned against the "power of the legis- [""";'' "'*' 'IV*"*'"" "P"" '"'"'"•"r "nd n 
 !atu.e ? can he tind anything else ? Let ' ^J'.T^Z '^??"''' '""•"•'"»'•'' «'« .O'-^-tlon not 
 l.irn -mote anything to the cor^rarv. i '""" "^ ,}'""' «' "T,'?'* "'''"*''"• •"" ' 
 
 *• lui.iai.i. approach It upon the high - ground of Can- 
 
 Mr. SPROCM:. Mr. Brown was argu- | nt'lan duty and Canadiv -lotlsm. Hav- 
 
 ing against the Introduction of so|)arate i '"K obtained the oousei ne minority to 
 
 Mhools and he gives the following as his ' "''■•< fo'"'" of governmen aving obtained 
 leasons : their consent to the giving ip of their valu- 
 
 IIc «pokc In the interest ot go. J feeling ana "^ privileges, and their position of strength 
 harmony in the national councils. What else "'■*' "■*" ♦" '•"" them, now that confederation 
 was the clause In the constitution empowering I '"^ established, that the principle upon which 
 tlie provinces to settle the school question i they consented to this arrangement. Is to be 
 
 themselves Inserted (or, but to get quit of con 
 troversies like this In the Dominion, and to 
 leave the schools to be managed according to 
 the views of each locality ? By this Bill they 
 might raise the very serious Issues In the North- 
 west which bad proved so troublesome to Que 
 
 luld aside and that we are to ride rough- 
 shod over them V I do not think that Is a 
 rropositlon whlih will be maiutalDed In thia 
 House, nor do I believe It is the intention of 
 till' House. I offer at this moment no opin- 
 
 bcc and Ontario. No one would regret this I i'>" at all upon separate schools as anab- 
 more than he, and for this reason he would ! stract propoation, but I have no hesitation 
 
 support 
 Peel 
 
 the motion of the hon. member for ' 
 
 Which was that this clause should be 
 dropped thus leaving It to the provinces. 
 
 Sir WILFRID LAURIER. It is ever the 
 old story— none so blind as those who will 
 
 m saying that if 1 were to speak niv mind 
 uton separate schools, I would say that I 
 never could understand what objection there 
 could be to u system of schools wherein, 
 after secular matters have been attended 
 t.>, the tenets of the religion of Christ, even 
 , „ ,. , ^vith the divisions which exist among His 
 
 not see, none so deaf as those who will not followers, are allowed to be taught. We live 
 hear. I tjepci.t agam that Mr. Brown, on the in a country wherein the sevti, provtnces 
 door of the Senate, did not want this clause • ■ ' " «:■■ j>iuwiici.» 
 
 rrovlding for separate schools to be intro- 
 duced In the Act. He stated that It would 
 ba a mistake to introtluce separate schools. 
 Le said that he was opposed to sep.irate 
 schools, but he said that If at that time 
 
 _. provl 
 
 that constitute our nation, either by the will 
 or by the tolerance of the peop'e. In every 
 school, Christian morals and Christian dog- 
 mas are taught to the youth of the country. 
 We live by the side of a nation, a great 
 nation, a nation for which I have the great- 
 
 separate schools were introduced they came , est admiration, but whose example I would 
 under the .ict of Union and they were there not take In everything. In whose schools 
 for all time. I do not want to be offensive, for fear that Christian dogmas in which 
 but if my hon. friend (Mr. Sproulej i.s not i all do not believe might be taught Chris 
 
•' . 
 
 .'•) 
 
 IlilM liMiiiU lire not l,iiu!it. Wlirll I rniii- 
 |iiin' lliiwc t«,i I iiiiiiii'iri, Hliiii 1 iKiniLiri' 
 <';ni;n|ii »llti till' I'lilli'il Ml.it<"<, wlii'M I 
 
 ■ <ll|||liltr III"' '.l.lllIM l<( III" IHll llilllilIH, 
 
 »lioil I llillik ll|i»ii llii'T I'tlMiii'. nlii'ii I oli- 
 siTVc llio Mill ill I i'i>iii|lliiiii of civil •mclify In j 
 
 i;|l|| llf llll'lll lllll! « lll'll I llllsiTM- ill lliln ' 
 
 .■iMiilry III iiiii'i, I imil iiliii'iui' nf lyiicli 
 
 iu)f< iiiiil nil iiliiio«| (.till iili«i'iii r tiivrtr- 
 
 • ■>^ and iniinliT.i. fur my iinrt, I lli:iiil. i 
 
 liiMVi'ii Unit HI- III" liviiij 111 :i I'oiiiitry 
 uliiTi' till' ycimiix rhllilrcn i.f Iho l.nid iir'.- 
 hiilitlit «'liri«t!:in iiinrnlii iiinl I'lirNlliin <!•>»' 
 MiiiM IjIIiit till' Anii'iii Jill ^.nii'iii N r!(rlit 
 or till' ('.iii.icll^Mi »y«|.'iii Ik wroim I'or my 
 |>:ltt I Hiiy liiin tiiiil I miy li >v:llioiit ln'si 
 1 iliiiii. Tliiii' \»ili «li,i\» III, It wi< .'iri- In III'' 
 I ii;lil ;iiii| ill ilii'< iii'>l.ii>i'i' n't III ni.iiiy oiIiiMn, I 
 liiivp nil iilililInK r.illli III tlip |ii«tltiitl'iMit of 
 my iivMi (oiintrv. 
 
 '