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Maps, plates, charts, etc.. may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one e.tposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, ae many frames as required. The folloviing diegrams illustrate thb method: Les caries, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre film6s d des taux de r6duction diff6rents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul clich6, il est fiilm6 d psrtir de ''angle supdrieur gauche, de gauche 6 droite. et de haut e.i bes, en prencnt le nombre d'imagas ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants iiiUStrent la mithode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 I ] .o /'• *■ • ? SPEECHHIS J ON THE DOMINION LICENSE ACT, EXCHANGE BANK LOAN AND THE INDUSTRIAL and FIHANCIJIL POSITION of the DOMINION DELIVERED ON 2nd, 5th AND 6th MARCH, 1885, RESPECTIVELY, BT ^r MR. THOS. ^A/'HITE, M. P. lOBCAKDWBLL . ^ -:k GAZETTE PBINTING COMPANY. 1885. M ;W. Jv t . \': THE DOMINION LICENSE ACT. SPEECH BY MR. THOMAS \A^HITE, M.P., Delivered in the House of Commons, on Monday Evening, March 2nd. ■ .ivwm $:i m4' On the evening of the 2nd of March, 1885, in the House of Commons, Mr. Bergeron, member for Beauhainois, moved for corre- spondence betvreen the government of Canada and that of Quebec, on the subject of the working of the Dominion License Act. la the course of the debate on the subject, Mr. White, membex for Cardwell, spoke as fol- lows : — Mr. White, (Cardwell). The hon. gentle- man, the leader of the opposition, has already announced that we are going to have an op- portunity of voting on this question before the session is over, and I presume, therefore, th3re will be au abundant opportunity of dis- cussing it at greater length before that time. But in the meantime, I desire to call atten- tion to au error into which the hon. gentle- man who has just sat down has fallen, in re- lation to the action of this house when the McCarthy bill, as it is called, was before us. The hon. gentleman says that b; the amend- ment put into thai; act by the majority of this house, it was resolved to reserve to the Pro- vince of Quebec certain rights which it en- joyed before confederation, with referencs to the issuing of licenses, and that when it was attempted to pass a similar motion in respect to the other provinces the same majority voted that down. It is as well to point out that these hon. gentlemen who talk so loudly of provincial rights and of the importance of leaving to the different provinces freedom of action in relation to this question of licenses ought at least to re- member that the motion that they made with regard to the other provinces was a motion to destroy the action of the provincial legisla- tures in relation to this very question. (Hear, bear.) The difference between the province of Quebec and the other provinces was this, that befoM confederation in Quebec the muni- cipel councils had the power of their own in- dividual action, jv^thout the iutenrention of the ratepayers in any way wht ever, to refuse licenses. The people of the province of Que- bec, as represented in their legislature, had never repealed that law, had never modified it or altered it in any way whatever. They were satisfied with the law as it existed be- fore confederation, and the proposal that was made by parliament when the McCarthy Act was brought in was simply that, inasmuch as the provincial legislature of the province of Quebec had in no way signified by its action a disposition to change the law as it existed prior to con- federation, wa ought not to interfere and overriae the law which they, for so long a time, deliberately permitted to remain un- disturbed on the statute book. (Hear, htar.) But in the province of Ontario particularly, and I believe I am right in saying in the other provinces as well — certainly in Ontario — and the hon. gentleman's amendment having relation to all the provinces had there- fore relation to Ontario among the ethers-— the local legislature had, by its act, signified its disapproval of the law as it existed before confederation. Ths province of Ontario had adopted a new law, and what these hon. gentlemen wanted us to do was this, that we should, by this Act, set up our judgment as against the modifications of that law adopted' by the province of Ontario, and that we to the law which its own legislature, as it then suppos- for itself, hadset I can understand saying that we were doing that under the McCarthy Act, that we were changing the law under the McCarthy Act ; but if we were, there was no proposal by those hon. gentlemen that wa should in- clude the provisions of the Crooks Act, the provisions of an Act which Ontario had itself adopted, but there was a proposal that we should set aside the decision which Ontario, in its legislature, had adopted as applicable should go back that province, by having the power ed, to legislate aside. (Cheers.) the hon. gentleman ill .'•; ,• '^■.-■ to the province itself, and Hiibstitute a differ- evt state uf things — a state of things they had Toluntaril/ set aside. (Hear, hear.) That was the distinction between the two cases, a distinction every hon. gentleman who looks &irly at it will realize, and which justified the action of this Parliament, even from the highest standpoint of provincial rights, in confirming legislation which had never been interfered with by the legislature in the province of Quebec, and at the same time refusing to set aside the action of the provincial legislature in Ontario, modifying and changing the law as it prevailed before confederation. (Cheers.) Then the hon. gentleman has told us that the privy council had declared that the Crooks Act is absolutely legal, and that the Supreme court have practically confirmed that decision. The Supreme court have done Hothiug of the kind. They have confirmed, to some extent, that decision ; but they have declared that there are portions of the Mc- Carthy Act which are legal and constitutional. (Hear, bear.) They have declared, for in- stance, that the right to issue and control wholesale licenses belongs to this parlia- ment, leaving us to determine what are wholesale licenses. We know that in the - dififerent provinces the term "wholesale lineneos ' ' has an entirely different significa- tion. In some places a pint is considered a wholesale license. Do honorable gentlemen opposite pretend to say we have the right to deal with the selling of liquor by the pint ? I That is not what is meant by the people of ' the province of Ontario when they talk of ' wholesale linenses. (Hear, hear.) There, a > wholesale license is a wholly different thing, and therefore we are left, by the decision of ' the Supreme court, with the whole question worse confounded than when it want to the Supreme court. One cannot read the reports of the discussion which took place before it, and the remarks of the learned judges when the argument was had before them, without ^ realizing that they felt that they were em- barrassed by the two decisions, which some of the learned judges did not hesitate to declare were entirely contradictory — the case of Rus- sell against the Queen, and the case of Hodge against the Queen. And, in neither of these cases, as far as a layman can read them — and I profehs lo discuss them only from a lay- Oman's 8tand[)oint — did the question arise on the point of tra le and commerce. In the Bussell case wo were told that it was a matter of peace, order and good government, and that it therefore belonged to the Dominion to legislate on the subject. In the Hodge case, we ^♦^re told that it was a matter of peace, order, a.i 1 good government, and that there- fore it belonged to the province. (Hear, hear.) Precisely on the same ground, the regulation of the sale of intoxicating liquors was de- clared to belong to the province and to the Dominion. I see the hon. the leader of the opposition laughing. The hon. gentleman, in his mightness, may laugh, but this house wiil recollect that, from the time this question was first discussed in this par- liament, the hon. gentleman has not had the courage to express his own individual opinion upon it. (Cheers.) He has told up what were the opinions of the csurts ; he has told us what this court has said and what that court has said ; he referred us, in former debates, to the decisions of Mr. Justice Ramsay, if I rightly rememl>er, and to the decisions of other learn- ed judges on the subject. But his own opin- ion we remain as ignoiant of to-day as we were the first day Le rose up to speak on the subject. (Hear, hear.) We know, however, that this very question of the constitutionality of the Crooks provincial license law, of tho place where the authority reaped to deal with the question of the regulation of the liquor traffic, has been a subject of dis- cussion and controversy almost ever since confederation. Before the conservative party went out of power in 1873 it was a subject of discussion. After that government went out, and, if I mistake not, when the hon. gentle- man himself was the minister of justice, his deputy minister, a man of eminent ability, a man whom we could not retain in the public service of this country because we could not pay him enough — and everyone will regret that we could not retain him, because he was a man of eminent ability, I refer to Mr. Lash, in a report he made to council in rela- tion to an Act of the provincial legislature of Ontario, expressed grave doubts, that hon. gea^leman (Mr. Blake) being his chief at that time, as to the powers of that legislature to pass a law conferring upon a municipality in the Muskoka district, I think it was, or in some of the unorganized territories, the power to deal with these licen- ces. (Cheers.) We know that the late Mr. Bethune, a man of great parts, a man whose eulogy, if I mistake not, was pronounced as a lawyer and a Christian gentleman by the leader of the opposition, when sitting in the local legislature of Ontario, and ppeaking on this question even from the mioii^erial side of the house, in relation to a measure intro- duced by his own leaders in that house, held i I 'X' odge case, of peace, that there- [ear, hear.) regulation ra was de- ce and to the leader The hon. laugh, but a the time [d this par- lot had the ual opinion lat were the Id us what it court has (ates, to the if I rightly other learn- ) own opin- )-day as we )eak on the «r, however, titutionality law, of the rested to egulation of )ject of dis- , ever since •vative party a subject of int went out, hon. gcntle- f justice, his nt ability, a n the public ve could not e will regret ;au8e he was refer to Mr. uncil in rela- legislat'ire of 8, that hon. I chief at that legislature to micipality in £ it was, or I territories, these licen- t the late Mr. a man whose tnounced as a man by the sitting in the I speaking on inuterial side easure intro* A houde, held the gravest donbt whether they had the power to deal with this question. This is not, and this ought not to be a question to be bandied about simply for rariy purpo^e*^, as a political sbu'tlecock, but is a qucbtiori of serious political import iu regard to which grntleman as eminent as any on the other side of the house who have expressed their opinion — and that, of course, excludes the leader of the opposition — have expressed either grave doubts or an absolute certainty of con- viction, that the local legislature could not deal with the matter. (Cheers. ) What is the position in which we stand to-day? Everyone admits that the decision of the Supreme couit is not a satisfactory decision, that it does not fairly settle this question, that it does not really determine the position in which the local legislatures and thi-i parliament relatively stand in to- day. I may sny here that, for my part, I do not believe a legislative union possible in this country, and that I would not desire to see it attempted. I believe we have the very best system of government, by which the local legislatures have full control over local affairs. But we are acting under a constitu- tion which, being a written law, must, like all written laws, be subject from time to time to controversy before, and to settlement by, the legal tf JOunals, just as the constitu- tion of the United States has been as to some of its clauses subject to controversy before the courts, for years after its adoption. We are under a constitution which ensures their rghts to the provinces. When the court of final resort decides upon them, and they be- come a settled part of the constitution, those rights are confirmed to the provinces, and tbey can exercise them without the possi- bility of this parliament interfering with them. (Hear, hear.) And the one feature, it seems to me, which is in favor of pro- ■,;i^&i,>-:...*',':-ir^ "■ ■■■■■- vinnial rights — not, as I say, as a matter of party shibboleth or party clap-trap, but as having regard to the well-being of this con8ti*^ution and its proper observ- ance — is ihe surety the provinces have, and the confidence they may feel, in the fact thaj the courts can interpret the constitution above the action of this parliament or of the provincial legislatures ; that we are, in fact, subject to that interpretation, and are ready to bow to it when the interprr+alion is finally given. Hon. gentlemen speak of provincial lights. Do they remember tha.: when tht/ were in office Acts-were disallowed ; that more were disallowed, if yod leave out the repetition c' disallowance by the conserva- tive government in connection with Mani-, toba and the Streams bill, while they were in office, than during the whole time the conservatives have been in power? (Cheers.) Do they recollect that an Act which has since been declared to be within the competency of the legislature of Ontario — I mean the Es- cheats bill — was disallowed by a minister of justice of theii own, who is to-day a judge of the Supreme court ? No, sir j this question I of provincial rights, which is raised now for j mere party purposes, wiU settle itself,as many other questions have settled themselves. We will find our constitution settled by contin-j ued — and in tne nature of things they must' be continued — interpretations and decisions of the highest courts upon it; and, when those decisions are given — and in this ques- tion in its present position it .s most desir- 1 able that the highest decision should be given — ihen we can go on, this parliament and the provincial legislatures respectively, each confident in its own ability and power to legislate within its own sphere, and for the benefit of the constituencies which elect it. , (Loud cheers.) ' '•^-» i' ■' ."•''.I**' :::.^fl -I rm:'sst ,./--, ; '* ■, •• b. t, *^ -' '1 - *. * ^ ■t ) V / ' rj.j 1 I THE EXCHANGE BANK LOAN. :h,. •'» -.id SPEECH BY MR. THOMAS WHITE, M.P., Delivered in the House of Commons^ on Thursday Evening, March ^th. -^.:h The following is the report from Haruard of the speech delivered by the member for Cardwell oa the resolution of Sir Richard Cartwright censuring the government for hav- ing mado an advance to the Exchange Bf nk : Mr. Whitb (Cardwell) was loudly cheere-l on rising. He said : Mr. Speaker, we are having, to>oigbt, a very remarkable illustra- tion of that kind of wisdom which comes after the event, and which is generally, according to the proverb, considered a very cheap com- tnudity. [Hear, hear.] The hou. gentlemen whu have addressed us, from the hou. member for South Huron (Sir Richard Cartwri,^ht) down or up, as they may prefer to the hon. leader of the oppositiun, have taken tbe ground that, because of certain circumstances which have since occurred in relation to the management of this bank, the loan made to the bunk at a time when it was in difficul- ties ought to be condemned ; and they have laid down thiH general proposition, that any act of a man's lite which he may, upon reflec- tioui oi because of the results which have flowed from it, regret having been committed, must, by the fact of that regret, be open to ceLBUre. Now, Sir, it seems to me that that is a proposition which the hon. leader of tbe oppositiou himself weuld hardly like to have applied to his own life and conduct. We know him to be a gentleman of very high pergonal cliaiacter. We know him to stand, in hilt own estimation and that of his friends, npoa a pedestal far above that upon which ordinary mortals are peimitted to stand. We know that, reading tbe commentaries as to his position in this country, with which we are favored by the press and by hon. gentlemen opi>osite, when, with bated breath, they ven- ture to refer to him at ail, he is one of those favore(i gentlemen who never make a mistake; that he in one who never in all his lifetime committed anything which subseqoetitly be could in any way regret ; and, that therefore the ordinary rule which applies to ordinary mortals, that an act performed in perfect good faith and at a time when, as everyone believeb, it ia not only not censurable but commend< able — I am laying down a general proposition — does not apply in his case ; and that, there, fore, should the result turn out to be not pre> ly what was expected, it is to be condemned, and the person whs committed it is to be cen- sured. [Cheers.] I do not think, in this par. ticular case, we can take into account, as cir- cumstances which ougbt to be known to the Finance Minister, which he had the opportu- nity of knowing when he made those advances, the events and circum. stances which have since been made known in conneciion with the man- agement of this bank ; and I propose, before 1 get through with tho very few worda I intend to address to the house, to establish this to the satisfaction of this hon. house. There are two propositions laid down in the resolution. The first is, that an advance made to a bank in difficulty is censurable ; and the next is, that where a bank has ap- plied toh ave its capital reduced, that alone ought to put the government on its guard, and no further consideration or loan should be given it. These are the two propositions affirmed ia the resolution. Now, tbe hon. gentleman, the leader of the opposition [Mr. Blake], made reference to an antecedent case, one that occurred in this country immediately after confederation, when an hon. gentleman, who occupied at that time the pobition of Finance Minister, and whom the leader of the opposition des- cribed as very much more able than the pre- sent Finance Minister, retired fiom the gov- ernment on a question arising out of a proposed loan to a bank. THl OOMmROIAL BANK OASI. w^ ...... It is worth while looking for a moment at i fl ■!2 the Btatenoent made by that hon. gentreman, when ho made his explanafion on the floor of parliament ; and I thinlc this house will agree with me, that whoever is entitled to bring in this motion of censure, it is certainly not the hon. member for South Huron [Sir Ilichard CartwrJKht]. What do I find, accordinp; to the Blatemwi of Sir Alexander Gait, v ho gives the history of that whole transaction. He says : — " The first intimation which I received In reference to the Commercial Bank being in danger was from my hon. frleni (Mr. Hoi on). 1 was at the time on a vis it on public business to the Treasurer of Quebec." And I am bound to say that when I heard the son of that hon. gentleman (Mr. Holton), the gentleman wno succeeded him in the representation of C'hateauguay, a gentleman for whom, personally, I have the very highest respect and whom I am very glad to count as a personal friend — when I l-iard him laying down the doctrine that no loan should be given to a bank which is in difficulties, I was reminded of the fact that the very first suKges- tion that came to the government in 1867, in relation to the Commercial Bank, came from the honored father of thai; hon. gentleman, who went to the then Finance Minister and urged him strongly to advance to that bank a loan from the government, in order to save it from difficulty. [Cheers.] Sir Alexander Gait went on to say : — " On my return to Sherbrooke I found a tele- gram from Mr. Holton,l'ifi)rmlugrae lie desired particularly to see me on public business, and wished to know where he might do so." I wish to call your attention, Sir, to the fact that Mr. Holton was at that time a direetor of the bank ; that he stood, in relation to the Comm<;rcial Bank, in precisely the same posi- tion as that in which Mr. G"eene stood to the Exchange Bank, and when he came to the Finance Minister of that day he came in pre- cisely the same character and on precisely the Ban: *) mission as did Mr. Greene to the present Finance Minister in this city a short time ago ; and when one reflects upon the language which the leader of the opposition ventured to use with reference to Mr. Greene's visit, when he suggested that the Finance Minister should have said to Mr. Greene : Sir, you are a personally interested party ; I will have nothing whatever to do with you ; your visit to me is practically an impertinence Mr. Blakb — No. Mr. Whitb. Go about your business, and I will enquire into this matter. When one remembers that language applied to Mr. Greene, and then remembers that Mr. Holton stood in re'ition to ths Commercial bank in precisely the aam? position and came with the • language I am about to read to the then FU j nance Minister, and came, I venture to !po8lt8, was. tln^ icto a hat he was nie, that I tho matter a deposit of he banK an tbclr meo- t)y the late al bank was was to ob- rance in or- f the bank titles. This at Sir Alex- iilties in tho dlrectars of resident, Mr. iscussion, I n, at «^- >utii Huron aughter and • n to Kings- mitting tiio; ascertaininfC !iuy material in expressed I lat occurred, ' tement : real, acoom siaeut of the gentlemen f that Insti- lager of the )Iug then in m hope and bank would, n ^ afety, and ritles, extend lal bank asi lase." i en opposite; I have been; ive done in' this case — that it should have gone to the banks. Let us see a little further what happened. Mr. King at first showed a dis- position to grant this assiHtauce ou tho part ot the other bankK, ho liaving come back from England, whero he was. Hir Alexander Gait uys : '•I ffould p-efer poitponlng any decision as to thu course I wou.d recommend tho govern- ment to t iKo, un ll the following day ; I wished to have their suncllon to conninunluato to Mr. King tho information which had been con- veyed by them to me, and they agreed to this." They went on to consider, and this is a point of some little impurtance : •• Wo consld<>red, moreover, the effect which would p'obably bj produced ou tho country If thefallureuf the Commercial bank b>camo a fajt. Wo looiied Into tho coiid'tloii, ho far as tho publish d slaieHieutsonablcdustodoNo, of all t'lo various biiici or tat country, comp ired It w'lh what It had been at previous periods, and conslUered wh d effi-ct, according to tho best otour Judgment, the failure of the Commercial bank, coming uaexpectedly on toe counlry, would have, i he c )ncUi8lon which Mr. King and I arrived at was, that it might be fraughi with very sorlous disasters indeed." Then he goes on still further : " After, as I have said, several hours of very serious conslaerai ion on these points, I came to the conclusion, and U was acquiesced In by Mr. King, tha i he best course to take under the circumstances was this : that tue government should take tho re'^ponsiblMiy of coming to the asslsta nco nf the l ank, and that it would be Well fo' ,e tosuomlL thocasb to the govern- ment, v.' i a recommendation to give assis- tance to the amount of half a mtl.lou of dol- lars." Now, there was a recommendation that the government should come to* the assistance of t'-\. ^'.istitution, but some members of the cabinet sti''. thought that tho banks should assist, p,nd we find a letter, and a rather re- markable letter, from Mr. King, showing, finally, the reason why the bank would not assist, and showing also the kind of manage- ment under which that bank labored at that time, and from which it failed, and, I think I may say, the responsibility in connection with that management rests largely on the hon. gentleman who moved this resolution. (Cheers.) Sib Richard Cabtwrioht. member for Carleton (Sir donald), another director. Mr. Whitb. The hon. member for Car- leton was a member of the government at the time. Sib Richard Cartwbight. And a brother director and solicitor of that bank. Mr. Whits. He was a member of the government at the time, with a great deal to And of the hon. John A. Mac- s ^__ attend to in connection with public matt^irs ; and, if he erred at all, it was probably in placing too much confidence in tho gentle- man who was the president of the bank. (Cheers). Now, what said Mr. King? " I believe that tho difflcult} of tho bank has been rendered more lmmlne..t by an un'Tlse oxpansionof Its discounts within the last lew w^eliH, upon the unsatisfactory plea of render- ing assistance toothers when Us own life was In danger." So, according to Mr. King's statement, after agreeing that practically some assistance might be given te this bank, wo find him writing a letter to the Finance minister, with- drawing all offer of assistance, on tho ground that, after the bank was in difiiculties, at the very moment tho president was travelling about with tho Finance mmister, for tho pur- pose of getting assistance for it, its manager was playing ducks and dtakes with the inter- est of the bank, by extending loans right and left for the purpose of saving other insti- tutions while its own life was in danger. (Cheers) : " I think it extremely Improbable," said Mr. King, " that tho banK can obtain assistance from any other c.uurter than tho government, as I should most'sLrongly advise ray directors not to increase tlio amount this bank has al- ready advanced to tho Commercial bank; with tho Knowledge of tho govornment, for th j rea- son that I beTleve all assistance -/Vill bo In vain If thero Is not a peremptory contraction of their lotns." Wen, did the hon. member for South Huron, the Mr. Cartwright who was the president of that banh, say : Since tlfb banks will not assist UH, since M. King declares that any as- sistance will be helpless and hopeless to relieve us, let us close our doors ? Net a bit of it. He still travelled about with the Finance Minister -, he still, in the face of that letter, stating that tho bank would not assist the Commercial Bank, urged upon the govern- ment of tho day to advance this half million of dollars to relieve that bank from difficulty, and so to prevent, probably, a commercial disaster in the country. (Cheers.) J am bound to say, in the face of that record of the hon. gentleman, in connection with that bank of which he was presidsnt, and for whose failure I fear he was as much responsible, tu say the least, as any 'other gentleman con- nected with it, that it hardly lies with him to move the resolution of censure which has been moved to-night. Bo much for that pre- cedent. (Cheers.) ■ . ( AID TO OTHER BANES. Then, as to the other proposition laid down in this resolution, what is it 7 It is that, I ■ '^: i r ■ :* — "- wLere a bauk has reduced its capital, where a bunk has come to parhament and got its capital reduced, the fact of that reduction Bhould prevent the government from coming to its assistance; or, la other words, that, •when once a bank reduces its capitil it is practically no longer worthy of public confi- donoe. That is substantially the proposition we are asked to affirm by the resolution tiow submitted to this house. What do 1 find ? The Merchants Bank, the successor to the Commercial Bank, got its capital reduced, the act reducing it being assented co on the 16th April, 1078. The hon. gentleman was finance minister at that time. What did he do? I find that, in July,1877, the public deposits in that bank weie $5^,843 ; I find that, in January, 1878,they were $83,434 and I find that in May, 1878, immediately after the reduction of the capital of the bank, he had increased the public deposits in that bank, which practically amounted to a loan to the bank, to the amount of $216,497. [Cheers.] I only give two illustrations, but 1 venture to say that wo might go through every bank and find that the same thing prac- tically occurred in every case. We had a statement the other day from the manager of the Federal Bank, that already the govern- ment of the day have bar* ' efficient confidence in the future of that be ,0 renew their rela- tions with it and to mak^ depositt? io it. If that be the case, we ought vO hr fo thesejlgen- tlemen moving a w^solution to condemn the government for putting money in a bank which is at this moment before parliament for an act to reduce its capital. I venture to say that they will do nothiugof the kind. J take the Ontario Bonk, whose bifl was assented to on the 17th May, 1882. I find that, in February of that year, after the notice had been gi^^en for the reduction of capital, the Ontario government, whose careful manage, ment I presume hon. gentlemen opposite will not venture to impugn, had on call in that liank $94,794,28, and on deposit to be drawn After notice $300;000. I shall not read all the figures, but so these depos;'.rS rontmced in that bank, aa an assistance to that back un- doubtedly, as government deposits by the government of Ontario, in spite of the fact that tho bank was applying, that it obtained and after it obtained the reduction of its oapitil. T31 ONTARIO BANK AKI/ POLITICS. The hon. ju I ' ^ » m I mM^t^ktt^^m bank. Well, that is rather a remarkable thiag. I have here a ldt*er from tho president of that bauk, t/hich undoubtedly hae seme influence in the partioul?r district wheie he was. It was dated Bowraanville, 17th January, 1874, rather a remarkable time, for, if I remember j rightly, the elections took place on tne 20tb! of the same month. I speak from memory.. An hon. Member— The 30th. ■" ' ' I Mr. Wbitb— Yes, the 30th of that same- month. Here is the circular letter : ' " Dear Sir.— Althoush I am not disposed tO' oppose Mr. Gibbs on porsonat grounds, In th» approaching electicn, still, as cue who has la- bored long and hard to proraota the Interest of Canada. I now ask ray friends lo support men who will support the present goveinment, for , the following reasons :— ! ' Because many ot the men forming the pre- , sent government are my personal and esteemed ' friends.'" [Hear, hear.] That is a very good reason,, though it is not a balking ror.bon :— 'Because, if the present government lb sus- tatned, I will Ls able through them to get Jus- tice for our party in needful appointments and otherwise.' '' [Loud laughter.] Ih view of the fact thai! every genti <)man w ho either recommends th^ | exercise cf patrona£-e or is the object of| patronage himself, ;'8 charged with bei' corrupt, it is rather remarkable that the presi- dent of this bank should have made the facii o'.' getting needful appointm^^nts and patron- 1 age ono of the reasons why the customers o:^ the bank should support the oppruents of Mr. Gibb. But here is a stronger point still : '"Beoaase, If they are sustaining onr bank, and o her Ontario bcnks, And through tbeixx the country will have the use of the govern- meut surplus until required.'" ^ , ^ ,• [Cheers.] And then follows. " May I ask you *.o give my old flriondr Mr. Cameron, your candid and honest sup- port." (Cheers. ) Thin is written 'oy the president of the bauk which the hon. leader of the opposition declares had never been v, political bank. His gullelessness in reference to every- thing of this kind causes him uot to know that Mr. Simpson had ever been a political friend. (Laughter.) 1 find that Mr. Simpson was not wrong in his anticipation of what would happ a, and that the bank rsturns, as they came down afterwards, showed a steady increase ef de- posits, not simply from the government here, but from the Ontario government as well — deposits on call, not on interest at l>^ll, showing that be dir* not at all misunderstand tbi character of his friends for whom he ' <5 ftli/lethiag. | ent of that leinflueac*. le was. Itr aary, 1874, ' : rtimemberi m tDe 20tb! u memory. that sam» disposed to indB, in th» who has la- i latereat of upport men' inment, for, I lag t!i« pre- , DO esteemed ' cod reason^ lent 1& sus-^ a to get J us- itments and he fact that, nmends tL<» j ) object of| with bei' lat the ptesi- ! lade the f&c'i | and patron- 1 ustomers oi bents of Mr. nt still : ig onr ban7c» irougU them the gevern- old flriondr honest sup- ine president eader of the in b political Qce to every- jot to know rer been a ) 1 find wr<,-ig la hapi^ u, and ' came down jrease ef de> goremment iment as well iterest at lUl, kisunderstand )r whom hd I was acting, in the issue of that circulatr, when he told them that his bank and other banlcs — although the other banlcs did not fare 90 well — that his bank would get the advar ta{(e. Now, Sir, that is not the onlv case. [Cheers.] I find here another circular tha^ was iusued — a more important one, in 3ome respects, because, imporCaat as the president of a bank 18, and especially such a presideut as was our good old friend, Mr. Simpson, one who understood the knacli of mesmeiioiag in bat^ches, and who esl^lained it to the court on « memorable occasion — the manager of a bank, the gentleman who comes into direct contact with the customers of a bank, m;i,y be said to be even a more influential person. And what do we find ? Here in a circultrr letter, dated from Oshawa, in January, 1874, to this effect : — •' My Dbar Sir.— We are very largely Inter- esteei in the success of the present goveraraent, as tbeir continuance in power will add argely to the success and prosperity of Ihe banlt {Loud cheers.] Not of the country, Dut of the bank, in this case. The president was a cunning old fox, who unc^' .-stood how to throw in a word or two about ihe country and al 1 that kind of thing, but the mana£:e<- knew ex. «ctly what he was requf'-ed to do, and therefore he put the matter in plain Euglish : — ^' And throMgh them, of the business people of thecommuu ay. Ourpres dent, tbel'on. John ; Bimos >D, is callibg upon our frlendf o give us I a hand for Mr. Cavierou." Signed by Mr. Holland, who was at that time ' manager of the Ontario Bank, and that was {the bauk that the hon. member for West Durham says he docs not believe ever was a poliitcal bank, in fact^ he knows it was not. {Laughter and cheers.] He says that ho never lead theb^ particular letters ; of course the kon. member's reading ia of an entirely diflferent class. How, sir, at. to this matter, I have shown that as far as precedents are ooEcerntid, at any rate, the hon. gentleman, ,to us« tbe common phrase, has not a leg to stand upon in tbe motion which he has pro- posed, and the only question with which we liave to do, practically, here, is this: btd the government reasonable ground to believe, when they made this advance, or gave this deposit, that the efifect would be to enable the bauk to tide ov:- its difficulties, and to on- able it to hold its own, and, ia that way to avoid the difficulties which might occur in tho event of a suspension of a bank at that time. WAS TU LOAN JUaTIFlAPLB. The hon. gentleMan, the leader of the oppo- sition, has spoken of the small effect ot the failure of this bank, at the time it did fail, , and he has done me the honor to qiake spe- f ciul references to mybelf, as having a remote ! coiinection with a particular newspaper frem ' which he read a remarkably good article, j Now, I want to point' out to the hon. gentle- man, that the conditions of tho bank, and fbe condition ot trad e in relation to it, in the mouth of April, was a very different thing to the condition in the month of Sep- tember. There is no doubt whatever that in the month of September those conditions had eo far changed that the bank failed without any seriuus effect upon the commerce of the country, or upon other institutions. But what was the position in April of that year at tho time tbe directors, came up to Ottawa? The hon. gentleman is good enough :n this, as m all other discussions, to drag in the Na- tional Policy. He is good enough to t-jl) us that we had promised prosperity and well- being to thiK country, and that there could be no depression, no difficulty, and no necessity for aiding the bank. But weknoir that at that time we were passing through a period— not of legitimate commercial depression ow- ing to difficulties eri^ing from legitimate commercial operations — but we were passing through difficulties arising from the insane spirit oi speculation, as it looks now, and as it looked to level-beaded people tben — although I am bound tcsay there were some people who v/ere not level-headed at that Time, in relation to particular transac- tions — but there was a wide spreadspirit of speculative transactions, especially in con- nection with our great Northwest; and the failure of the boom, as it was called, in the Northwe^t, made men feel that they might be on the verge of a serious crisis that would result disastrously to the welfare ot this coun- try. This was the condition of things at that particulai' period. It was then, Mr. Speaker, that the failure of even a small bank like the Exchange Bank, taking place in the presence of the failure of that boom in the Northwest, when men who had gone in there expecting to be millionaires came out piactiritlly pa''.p' rj — it was at that time that this, tpli- catioii was made and that the government had to face this difficulty. [Hear, hear.] To say that five months afterwards, ^^en mea had come to feel that, after all, this difficulty was not going seriously to efi'ect the welfare of the country, when, as Mr Smithers fairly pointsd out, the efifect even of a lank failure bad been disceunted, and the difficulty would A Bot be 80 great as it might hare been,^ mi ;l Mil coming in tue midst of this practical crisis — to say that at that time the effect of a failure of a baijk was not disastirous, is a proof that it would not have been disastrdus at tae earlier period, is simply to ignore the condi- tion of things at the two periods respectively. Now, sir, wLat was <' THB POSITION OF THa BANK ? The hon. member for North ♦York [Mr. Mulock] told us that their reserves were al- most exhausted. He says that if any body had looked at the position of the bank, and seen how little gold and Dominion noles they had in reserve, and compared that r^ith the liabilities which they might at once be called upon to meet, they would havo said the bank was not in a safe condition at all, but in a condition of hopeless bankruptcy at that time. Why, sir, the hon. gentleman knows this, that the specie reserve and Dominion notes of no bank in Cauda would enable it, at a moment' 3 notice, to meet the calls to whicbit is liable at any time. The strongest institutions in the country are enabled to meet their liabilities from their reserves, or from their Dominion notes, it prebented on one day, although they are happily abundant- ly able to meet them by their loans as ibey come in. But in this case, it was because the reserves were small, it was because their reserves were being exhausted, that they came to the government, that they wanted assis- tance to tide them over their difficulties, until they could collect the money that was owing to them, and in that way meet all the obli- gations that they had incurred ; it was precisely because their reserves were getting exhausted that it was necessary for the bank to como here. Had its resources been stronger, had there been sufficient gold aad notes in the vaults of tae bank to enable them to do what the hon. member for North York thinks they ought to have been able to do, that is, to meet all their liabilities the mo- ment those liabilities were called for, and in the event of those liabilities being called for suddenly, why, sir, there would then be no necessity for their coming here at all. [Cheers.] But what was the position ? When I tell you that after the tall of the bank, that after the doors were closed, at a meeting of creditors, a statement was submitted by Mr. (Campbell, of whose ability there is no doubt, who stands so high that at this moment, while there have be n discussions in Montreal , amongst the creditors in relation to the other li's^'OiidatorB, all concur in leaving him there M a liquidator — a statement was submitted, I say. by Mr. Campbell to those creditors, do* daring, on an examination, a tolerably care> ful examination, so far as he could make it, within the two or three weeks he was there, that there were still sufficient assets to meet the claim of every creditor, you will agree with me that no examination of the books such as could be made at the time by an offi- cer of the government would likely have shown the condition of things which was after- wards developed. [Cheers.] The unfortunato fact was simply this : t&e bank was undoubt- edly badly managed. The unfortunate fact was, that the system of book-keeping was such that many of the bad debts and losses^ which have since been shown, have only beea discovered in books apparently hidden away, which even so skilfaJ. a banker as Mr. Camp- bell was unable to see. And so the consequence was that he was in a position to coue down to the meeting of creditors and declare, after the bank had closed its doors and when he had made that examination for the special information of the creditors, that the bank was solvent at that time and was able to pay all the claims of its creditors. [Hear, hear.] What was the further fact? POSITION OF THS DIRKCTOKS. '**^^'''^ The directors have been referred to here al- most as if they were a band of robbers, ea if they were men who came here to plunder the country. They, unfortunately, are the heaviest losers. They held, as the leader of the oppo- sition has told us, more than one-half of the entire capital of the bank. Certainly one would say that that was a ground for security rather than a ground for doubt, as to the management of a bank. And what is the further f ict ? That so shrewd a business man as Mr. Bjntin — and those who are acquainted with him. know him to be a shrewd business man ; he was a director of the bank, and presumably knew how things wore going oa — on learning, on his return from England, that a loan had been obtained from the City and District Savings Bank to the amount of $250,000 on the collateral security, if one may use the term, of the directors themselves, he had such confidence in tbu soundness of the bank and of its ability to pav all its tiebts, and to pay its stockholders as well, thit h» actually proposed, though not obliged to do so, to become a party to that loan. So we have thU extraordinary fact iu relation to this matter, that the directors of the ba>ik who were there, who possessed a daily knowledge of what was going oh, were so thoroughly convinced of the soundness of the bank and tl tl xm tl .7' editors, de* erably care> Id make it, 3 was there, sets to meet 1 will agree if the hooks 3 by ao offi> likely have :h was after- iinrortUDatn a3 undoubt- rtuaate fact eepiojj was and lossesy re only been idden away, I Mr. Camp- d so the , position to editors and (1 it8 doors li nation for ditors, that ae and was 3 creditors, ler fact? to here al- bbers, ea if }Iundev the lu heaviest ■ the oppo- half of the taiuly one m security as to the hat is the jiness man icqiiainted business bank, and i going on England, the City imouat of ty, if one emselves, indness of its«iebtB, thit he ed to do So we on to this a>ik who auwludge orouglily uiik and tbat its difficulties were merely temporary, the result, simply, of a bear movement on I' Change, that they were ready to risk their own individual fortunes in connection with jthat institution. [Cheers.] The hon. mem- iber for North York [Mr. Mulock] has told us ,that this bank had failed before and had closed jits doors, and he told u& that it had taken, as manager, a gentleman who knew nothing of banking, who had had no banking experience, 'and who never should have been in that posi- tion. I can appeal to the hon. member for Ghateauguay [Mr. Holton], that the directors of the bank, previous to that first failure, in- cluded in their number some gentlemen, who certainly were not conservatives, and who were eminent and leading business men in Montreal. One was Mr. James Crathern, one of the shrewdest business men of the city, and another was Mr. Thomas Caverhill, and oo confident were they, when they were direc- tors, that they actually risked their own money in making the stock good on a reduc- tion of the capit&l taking place, and they did that which, I believe, no directors have ever done in relation to a ban'i in this country, «ither before or since. Then as m Mr. Thomas Craig. Ho was well known in Mont- real. I do not know whethe- he was trained in a bank, but he was recogniztid as a clever business man ; and the gentleman who pressed his appointment on his brother directors was not his brother-in-law, the member for Montreal West [Mr. Gault], not Mr. Ogilvie, Mr. Buntin or Mr. Greene, but it was Mr. James Crathern, a political oppon- ent, aud u gentleman who, as I have said, is as shrewd a bu 'iness man as there is in Can- ada. It was Mr. Crathern who urged his appointment, and his opinion in regard to that gentleman is certainly as good as that of the hon. gentleman for North York [Mr. Mulock], much as we may esteem his jude:- ment of human nature. Under those ciicum- etances, when the directors came to Ottawa they came here precisely as other bank directors had come. Why had we no resolu- tion of censure in the case of the Consolidated Bank? OONSOLIDATSD BANK A.ND SIR FRANCIS HINOES- Wo know what happened in regard to that bank. We know that the bank had as its presi- dent a gentleman who, from the time he came into this country, in 1836, down to the time h) left it, in 1855, was the financial model of the liberal party in Canada — I mean Sir Fran- cis Uincks. I Mr. Blaxi— Hear hear. . Mr Whitb, (Card well) — The hon. gentle* man says, hear, hear. AH I can say is, that Sir FraneisHincks then was inspector-general of the government in which the hon. gentle- man' s father was solicitor-general and sup» ported in 1848-49 until he left parliament. Mr. Blake — No. Mr. WaiTB (Cardwell) — Does the hon. gentleman say no ? Mr. Blakb — The hon. gentleman' s obsei'va- tion was that bir Francis Hincks had the con- fidence of the liberal party up to the time he left Canada, in 1855. Mr. Whitk. (Cardwell) — So he had Mr. BiiAES — I di£fer with the hon. gentle- man. Mr. WaiTB (Cardwell) — Then all I can say is, thattho hon. gentleman is spliting straws in a manner unworthy of him. It is quite true that a section of the liberal party, from 1851 to 1854, opposed him. It is quite true that a section at that time thought a coalition between the liberals and the conservatives would be a good thing ; that a section of the party endeavored to defeat him ; and that to that end in Huron they supported Mv. Cayley against Mr. McQueen; that in Hamilton they supported Sir Allan M Nab against Mr. Buchanan ; that in Kingston they supported the present leader or the government against Mr. Counter; that in various parts of Ontario, during that time, we had that condition of things, and a section of the party withdrew its support from Mr. Hincks. But if I do not mistake, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blake), judging him by what we have seen since ha came into public life, was not of that section^ his boast being that he never was a clear grit, whatever he might be ; and his efforts ever since have been to raise the liberals out of the ruts into which they had got, through the actions of the leading man who at that time had not confidence in Sir Francis Hincks (cheers). What I was going to say was this, that Sir Francis Hincks was the president of that bank. He had a salary as president. He was at the bank every day ; he had an of- fice there ; he was watching it continuously. Yet what occurred ? We know that when the bank failed exposures occurred and a large number of transactions came to light to which Sir Francis Hincks would never have been a party if he had known anything about them ; and the only question which seems to me to arise is this : whether there may not be something done by law or otherwise which will secure, not the inspection of the banks, which i> , ".t li ! J!lJ .r f to my mind would be utterly futile, but the Gpreater responsibility of directors in connec- tion with the management of banks [Hear hear.] How that can be done is a difficult question. We are told by the hou. member for Chateauguay (Mr. Holton) that a number of things have since i^ime out which the gov- ernment might have ascertained for them- selves if they hod examined the books ; but the answer to that is, that Mr. Campbell, who made an examination of the books after the failure, with the sole desire of finding out precisely what the condition of things was, reported that the bank was all right. True, it has not turned out to be all right, and everybody will regret it. POSITION OF BBNATOB 0011.711. It is somewhat difficult to understand what is the precise position ot those hon. gentlemen with i-egard to the security of Senator Ogilvie. I know there are a great many persons who think that the government should not have pressed its claims against the bank at all for those loans ; that they should bo willing to accept their chance with the rest of the de- positors, and take their share out of what the assets wiii produce. I do not quite know whether that is the view of the hon. gentle- men opposite, though I am bound to say that the statement of the leader of the Opposition would lead one to believe that that is his view ; for while he in the strongest possible way, condemns the granting of the loan, objects to the possible loss of the money as the result of granting the loan, he at the same time urges — if his argument means anything — that we should make the loan an ordinary one, and consent to come in with the rest of the creditors for share and share alike (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, I do not pretend to be a lawyer, but I venture to say — and I do not think the leaaer of the Opposition will deny it — that if we took that ground ; if we undertook to release the bank of our prior claim — if we have a prior claim — to that $200,000, if we undertook, of our own action, to say that we would take from the bank the same proportion that the bank is •able to give I to its other creditors — in that case, at any rat» we could uot hold the security [hear hear.} That is a proposition which, even according^ to Ontario law, the leader of the Oppositioa will hardly dispute. Wo must at least, if we did sue Senator Ogalvie, we must put him in as good a position as we are, to recover from the bank the full amount of that deposit. There can be no question about that, as a legal proposition ; and therefore the only question which would arise would be this : so far as the bank i) concerned, it would make- no dirfferencn, whether we are to ask that- ge ib'^man for the money in tbe meantimo— » and he hat; alreadv lost seriously by his per- sonal confidence in the bank, and has risked large *>ums of money as a shareholder in con- ueotion with it — whether we are to do that, or first io exhaust our rights against the bank, - and then, if it is found that we have any claim against Senator Ogilvie, to go for hiii» and recover that claim- That is the only difference between the two positions [hear hear]. I think no one will deny that having^ regard to the precedents, having regard to what has been the invariable practice, having regard to the opinion of the hon. member who has moved this motion in the case of the Commercial Bank — that even after the pre- sident of a bank had declared that it was hopglessly gone, because of its later mis- mauSgement still the government should come to its assistance — I say, under those circum- ' stances, J think the house should have no difficulty in voting down this resolution, and relieving the finance minister of the imputa- tion which has been attempted to be p<'\ced upon him, fer an act which he performed ia • good faith, upon precedents wbiph ar» abundant in the records of this country ; when he believed himself, in attempting to prevent the disaster of the failure of that bank, to be averting the consequent disaster, which, in view of the peculiar and specula- tire condition of things in Canada, and the- ' failure of those speculations at the moment, might have resulted to the commercial in-' terests of the country. [Loud cheers.] ^''? '■'■ I, atanyrat* [bear hear.} Jn according Opposition least, if wd put him in ecover frorn lat deposit tliat, as a the only be this : sO' irould make- ask that neantiin&~ i>y his per- bas risked der in con- do that, or t the bank, > ha?^e any go for bin* i the only ions [hear hat having^ regard ta ce, having^ smber who jse of the er the pre- at it was later mi8> lould come se circum- 1 have no iition, and le imputa> be p'-iced 'formed in lii.ch are country ; mpting ta 9 of that ; disaster, I specula- and the moment, rcial in- V^.--".-'i.'»/.v "' j't ■\:\" BUDGET DEBATE. .0 SPEECH BY MR. THOMAS W^HITE, M.P., ^Delivered in the House of Commons, on Friday Evening^ March 6th. Tbe followlngris tlie HANSARD Report of tbe Speecb of tbe Badg:et, delivered by the bon. member for Cardwell, on Friday evening, 6tb Marcb, in reply to Sir Bicbard Cartwriffbt. Mr. "White, (Cardwell), who was received With loud cheers, said: Mr. Speaker, in risiug, sir, to continue the debate upon the molioa that you do leave the chair for tbe House to go into committee of ways and means, I desire to say that I think the debate might very fairly, if both sides would agree to it, be left precisely where it stands at this moment. We have had from the hon. Finance Minister a speech as able as it was exhaustive, a speech than which, I believe, no better has ever been delivered from the ministerial benches on a similar occasiou in Canada, and which embodied as complete u statement of tbe financial and industrial pos- ition of this country as could very well be embodied in any statement of tbe kind. [Cheers]. We have had as a reply to that a speech from the hon. member for South Huron (Sir Bicbard Cartwright), who speaks for the opposition, in matters of this kind, with some degree of authority, which, I think, even his own friends will admit, was hardly equal to the reputation whiq}]i he deservedly possesses as an able debater. If one may judge of the speech — if one may use, in fact, the concluding sentence of the speech as a commentary on thd speech itself — the hon. gentleman unfortunately indulged in those extravagances of statement which, I think, impair very greatly the effect of what otherwise might be useful statements in relation to public affairs, and which certainly, no far as we are concerned on this side of the house, do not make his speeches, as a rule, very dangerous to us. [Hear, bear.] Sir, let me ask you what will be thought, what can be thought, of an bon. gentleman with ihe jesponsibility that rests on that hon. gen- tleman as an ex-finance minister, who, after three hours of discussion of tbe affairs of ihe jsountry, concluded ia these wwrds :— " I say this in conclusion, and I say it, not as a matter of rhetorical statement, but as a simplo matter of fact, capable of mathematical demonstration, that I believe to-day, if we sat down and counted the cost, we woula And that this country has lost more In six years of evil government relatively to its population and Its resources than the people of tue United States did in the four years of desperate civil war which ^immediate y preceded the formation of our confederation." It does seem to me, sir, that an|hon. gentle- man who approaches a discussion of the af- fairs of this country, of its financial and in- dustrial position, holding the view which is embodied in the words which I have just quoted, puts himself out of court altogether as a reasonable authority upon the questions with which we have to deal in a discussion of this kinJ. [Cheers.] The hon. gentleman commenced by telling us tbat he proposed to deal in some d'sagreeable truths. He com- menced by telling us that he anticipated that possibly from this side of the house he would be charged as unpatriotic because )f the state- ments he was about to make ; but influenced, like one of Gilbert' 8 cieations, with that ter- rible sense of duty, being in fact the slave of duty, he thought it necessary to tell the tmth, whatever might be the result to the country, or, in fact, to himself. [Laughter.] Well, so far as 1 am concerned, I do not think this country has anything to fear from the truth. I believe that the truth fairly told, I believe that the truth luliy told, told without Jiitiga- tion, without concealment (of any fact, will not injure but benefit the country. [Cheers.] But the hon. gentlemen, under the guise of truth, commence their statements by the declaration that they are overwhelmed with a sense of tbe duty attaching to thenl to tell the truth, and then deliberately proceed to make statements which, to say the least of them, would not, in any other place but parliament, be entitled to be called truth. We may fairly conclude that the hon. gentleman who makes such statements to the prejudice of his country is not entitled to any great consideration, and is certainly not in a position to set himself up as being influenced simply by his sense of doty to the countty. n iiiii O^: 'ti ■■■:»•' THB QOIBTION OF POPULATION. The hon. gentleman on this, as on former occatiioDS, dealt with the question of the pop- ulation of Canada, and it does Beem to me that it iH very deeply to be regretted that we should find ourHelves, on almost every occa- sion when this debate arises, or similar de- bates arise, compelled to defend the couutty againdt statements, which, if they were tme, even ia part, it would not be necessary t > parade on every possible occasion; but which, as I Ihull show in a moment, are not only not correct even in part, but are so absurdly incorrect that the hon. gentleman who pre- sents them to the house can hardly be credit- ed in courtesy with believing them himself [Cheers. J The hon. gentleman reiterated • here the statement wliich he made with re- gard to the loss of -fi pulatiou in Canada in a memorable speech in Montreal. On that oc- casion he elaborated his figures more than he ventured to do yesterday ; but as he took the full responsibility for them, I shall take occasion to refer to them, and I think 1 wiil be able to convince even the hon. gentlemen opposite that they are not entitled to the credit which he would desire they should ob- tain. The hon. gentleman admits that from 1840 to 1861 the country made considerable progress. He gave the figures of the census in 3840 as 987,000 ; those by the census of 1851 as 1,8*2,000, and of 1861,2,507,000, which figures, he admitted, showed a very rapid increase indeed. And having made that admission, he started for the purposes of his discussion with the census of 1861. The population of the old provinces in 1861, he said, was 3,200,000; the net increase oi births over deaths, or the natural increase, he said, ought to have been 2,000,000 ; that is, that the population, without the addition of any immigration, should have been 5,200,000. or an increase of 62^ per cent. ■, How he obtained that 52^ per cent, as the basis of his calculation I shall show in a moment or two, but that is the basis — and I want hon. gentlemen to re- member it — of the increase which he has taken in all ot his calculations, and upon which he has ventured to say tha^. this coun- try, so far from progressing, has steadily lost in population. He went on to say that the immigrants settled m Canada during ^.those twenty years numbered 499,562, that the natural increase of the im- migration would be 210,000, or a little over 42 per cent, and the curious thing is that in order to make that increiise he as- Gomes that the whole 499,562 immigrants. were here at the commencement of the twen- 1 ty yecis, and that that increase hi'n been iroing on ever since. Why, those iiu:f O iani in the United States, givintr '> in- !'!|!i ^ crease to those pereons bccording to the scale ostabliahed by the American v^ensus, web 758/637. So that there is an exaggeration at the very outset of the hon. gentleman's state- ment, against this, his own country, of 908, - 925; that is to say that, inorder to estafsh the statement which he made, there ought to be no less than 900, 000 more Canadians in the United States than the census of the United States assumes to be there. [Cheers.] I leave it to the hon. gentleman to dis- cover where these 900,000 people have gone. Then there is another thing which ought to be taken into account. Although I suppose these persons would be regarded as part of the general immigration, it is well just at this point to state the fact that ttiere have been persons coming from the United States to Canada as well as persons going from Canada to the United States. According to the census of 1880 In the United States and the cenfus of 1881 here, while there were 14 Canadians to each 1,000 in the United States, there were 18 Americans to each 1,000 in Canada, so that after all there has been a fair interchange of the courtesies of visitation be- tween the peoples of the two countries during that period. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. gentleman cariied his calculation still further. When he was speaking in Montreal, in November, 1884, lie said that Canada had at the outside, exclusive oflndiaae, a population of barely 4,400,000, while it ought to have had 6,700,000, making a loss, according to the hon. gentleman, of 2,300,000 persons, or an additional loss in the last four years of no less than 700,000. That is that our loss had increased, according to the hon. gentleman' s statement, between 1880 and 1884, by no less than 700,000 parsons. Now, on the same basis of calculation, which I presented be- fore, we have the loss calculated by the hon. gentleman, 2.300,000; the loss according to the United States census, 836,404, so that we have an exaggeration on the part of the hon. gentleman, according to that method of cal- culation, the correctneas of which I venture to say cannot be successfully impugned, of 1,463,696, or in round numbers an exaggera- tion of a million and a half. [Cheers.] TBB RAILWAY FASSENOBR RETURNS. We have an opportunity of knowing some- thing, daring the last few years at any rate, from statistics that cannot be very well questioned, as to what has been the move- ment of the population between the United States and Canada. The department of agri- calture, I belieye, hare obtained trom the Grand Trunk railway audit office a statement of the actual number of passengers going out and criming in at the different points at which the line crosses the frontier. So that, so far as that railway is concerned at any rate, we have in these figures a tolerably accurate statement of the difference between the in- come and the outgo of the people between the United States and Canada. What do we find ? For the fiscal year ending the 30th June, 1883, the net total number of pas. sengers from Canada to the United States, ex- cluding through passengers; by the Grand Trunk railway was 187,935 ; the total num- ber of passengers from the United States to Canada, excluding again European immi- grants simply passing through the United States to Canada, was 192,627, or a net gain to Canada, according to the official statement oi the audit oflice of the Grand Trunk rail- waj', of 4,692 persons. Then, if you take the last fiscal year ending June 30th, 1884, you will find that from Canada to the United States the number of persons, again ex- cluding European passengers, was 201,931, while the net total number of pas- sengers from the United States to Canada, excluding in the same way those who came through from Europe, was 204, S38, or a net gain to Canada of 2,907 persons, or in round numbers 3,000. (Hear, hear. Now, these figures may or may not be absolutely accu- rate. We have possibly as good a test in re- gard to their accuracy as it is possible to get, from the fact that they have come from the audit office of a railway corporation which has not, I am bound to say, shown itself much interested in building up either this government or this country during recent years ; and we have a statement from that audit office which shows, at least, that there has been no such loss of population by per- sons gding from Canada into the United States as would at all justify the statements made by the hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) Then we may take another way. We may take the immigrants from the United States, some of them returned Canadians, some of them Americans coming to settle in Canada — and you will find Americans in every town in Canada, in all the manufacturing centres in Canada you will find American working- men who have come to find employment here just as you will find Canadian workingmen who have gone to find employment there — and if we take the entries of settlers' effects, we shall find that in 1879 the settlers who entered their effects at the custom house, . and so registered themselvea i I 1 •8 people coming to eettle in Canada, . were 9,775; in 1880, they were 10,961; in 1881, 15,404; in 1882, 30,554; in 1883, 34,987, and in 1884, 35,891. I think that will show that there has been a steady in- crease in the number of persons coming from the United States to Canada to settle, and yet in spite of those figures, which the hon. gen- tleman could have got without any trouble ^ if he had been anxious simply to tell the exact truth in relation to this matter, he has ventured to base his whole argument upon the supposition that a much larger and a con- tinuing larger outflow is going from Canada into the United States. laaRATION OF CANADIANS TO THB 8TATKS. There is no doubt whatever that during the last 30 years a good many Canadians have gone to the _United States. Nobody doubts it ; nobody can deny it ; nobody can question / it. There have been reasons for it, and reapons of a very simple character. If you go, for instance to the great lumber regions of Michigan, you find a number of Canadians who have gone there to work in the lumber shanties and the saw mills. That is aa in- dustry with which they have been acquainted here, and they have gone in great numbers, to find employment which they could not find here. Then, in the industries of New England, an incentive has been offered to a great many Canadians to find employment in those manufactories, and there have been still greater inducements in the g'-eat prairie lands tf the American northwest which were opened long before our prairie lands in our North-west, were open , to settlement, and which annually attracted large numbers of persons not only from Canada but from the old states of the union as well, who have gone there to settle. All these inducements proved attractive to the people of the eastern states, and t^ose states have suffered in quite as great a degree as Canada. V .. THS BASIS OF NATURAL INCBEASB. Now, sir, I come to what seems to be a cru- cial test of the unfairness of the hon. gentle- man' s mode of calculation upon this subject.' He has assumed 62^ per cent, as what should be the natural increase foe 20 years, irrespec- -■ tive of immigration altogether, and he has based his entire calculation as to the loss of population to Canada upon that figure. Now what is the fact? We find, for instance , that the decennial increase was as follows : — in the United States Prom 1830 to 1840 39 67 " 1840 to 1850 36-87 '• 1860 to 1880 36-68 •' 1860 to 1870 M-68 " 1870 to 1880 30'07 Making an average decennial increase of 31-36, or, for 20 years, 62-72. The hon. gentleman takes 62^, but he did not take the trouble to remember that this increase in the United States was not the natural increase of the people. Sir Richard Cartwriqht — Why don't you take 1790 to 1810, when the population was the same ? Mr. White — Well, if the hon. gentleman chooses to go back to those dates he is at lib- erty to do so, but I think he will find that the argument in relation to the natural in- crease will be precisely the same as the argu- ment here. Now, when I find that the United States show an increase of the popula- tion, during twenty years, of o2.72, and that the hon. gentleitian has taken as a reasonable basis for the natural increase of Canada, and as the basis of his entire calculation, an in- crease of 62.50, I have a right to assume, at any rate, that it is upon that he has made his calculation. But he iias ignored altogether the fact that that increase of 62.72 in the United States for the twenty years actually included the Immigration as well as the natu- ral increase, and, therefore, was not a fair test to apply to this matter at all. [Hear, hear. The United States have increased dur- ing that time from various causes, from the annexation of territory and in other ways, but whatever the increase was, the figures I have given cover the whole increase and not the natural increase alone. comparison with UNITED STATES. Now, sir, another way of testing the absurdlj exaggerated character of the hon. gentleman' s figures is to take the increases in the Uuited States as they are stated. From 186d to 1870 the increase in the United States vras 22.63, and of that 15.38 was put down as the natu- ral increase, and 7.25 as the increase from immigration. From 1870 to 1880 the whole increase was 30.07, the natural increase being put down as 22.78, and the increase from immigration at 7 29. Now, sir, apply these figures to the population of Canada, and what do wo find ? The population in 1861 was 3,200,000 and the natural increase from 1871 would be 492,160 and the increase from immigration would be 242,000, making a population in 1871 of 3,934,160. Then take the actual increase of 1881, of 896,202j and from immigration of 4^- 3867 35-87 36-68 2^-68 30-07 increase of The hon. □ot take the ;rease ia the 1 increase of ' don't you )ulation was gentleman ho is at lib- II find that natural in- as the argu- d that the the popula- 72, and that » reasonable 'unada, and iuu, an in- assume, at as made his i altogether 52.72 in the rs actually as the natu- not a fair H. [Hear, reased dur- from the |r ways, but res I hare |nd not the iTBS. |ie absurdly mtleman'8 :.he Uuited )6etol870 Iras 22.63, Ithe natu. jrease from the whole [ease being increase low, sir. Population W? The and the le 492,160 1 would be 1871 of Itcrease of ration of 386,801, and taking the figures of the United States aad applying them to Canada, the po- pulation of this country in 1881 would be 6, 1 17, 1*33. Bat the actual population by the ctnsus was 4,324,810, or a loss by the calcu- lation of this standard of 793,353. But the faon. gentleman states that the loss during that period wds 1,G67,563, showing a mis- take in the direction of exaggeration of 874,- 209. (Oheeis.) Now, sir, how do we stand — for I think after all that is a fair way to • look at :hi8 question — in relation to the toler- ably prosperous Eastern States of the Union ? I take the State of MaKsachusetts, which, I think, the hon. gentleman will admit is a tolerably prosperoT state, probably the most prosperous of the ^e\r England States, in which is found a very large number of French-Canadians, for a great many French- Canadians who have gone from Canada have gone into Massachusetts. We find that the increase in population of that state between 1860 and 1880 was 18 per cent. We find that some other of the New England States as well as Canada, are subject to the same process of emigration to the Western States, particular- ly into newer fields. We find in some of them, as in New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont that there was scarcely any increase whatever, and I believe in one of those states during one decennial period there was an actual decrease. Now, the in- crease of population in Canada in the same period was 36. 3. On the other hand, in the same period, Dakota showed a gain of 193 per cent., Kansas 239 per cent., Minnesota 155 per cent., and Illinois 48 per cent. Then, sir, if I take the State of New York, which is called the Empire State of the Union, with its large urban population, with the enor- mous growth of population in the cities of Brooklyn, New York, and other great cities of that state, what do we find ? If you take the State of New York according to the prin- ciple laid down by the hon. gentleman — and when he asked mo to go back to 1790 I point him to the State of New York, which, stand- ing alene,^at any rate, offers a fair comparison — if you tike that state, and apply the hon. gentleman's method of calculation, adding for twenty years 62 J per cent, as the natural increase, the population should be 6,3Q^,625 ; but the actual population by the census was only 5,083,000, or a loss in population to the State of Now York, according to the method he has applied to Canada, of no less than 1,223.625. If to that is added the immigra- tion and its increases, as the hon. gentleman did ia the case of Canada, we have 760,000 more, and the loss in that case would be in the State of New York, applying the same method of calculation that the hon. gentle- man has applied to Canada, 1,973,625. Now, sir, that is 300,000 more than the hon. gen- tleman, in his wildest flight of imagination, says was the loss to Canada. [Cheers.] The actual facts of the comparison are these, as ascertained by the census, which we may fairly assume to be correct : that the State of New York in- creased in 20 years 1,202,000, or 30-97, while Canada increased 36.03, or one-fifth more than the State of New York. I do not think it is unsatisfactory when you come to remember that down to 1881 we scarcely had a Northwest in the sense of an attractive ter- ritory to which settlers could go, when we were only beginning to open it up, to offer inducements to people to go there by means of the construction of railways through that territory, that Canada, with all the attrac- tions which the Western States had to offer, with all the attractions which the industrial policy of the United States had to offer, tak- ing our people from this country to the other side, still increased one-fifth more than the great State of New York. (Cheers.) Yet the hon. geutleman,for the purpose of in- juring this government — although how this government is going to be injured by the fact that we have lost population since 1861, I cannot very well see — undertook to state that there has been a loss to Canada. (Cheers. ) THB SCHOOL POPULATION STATISTICS. The hon. gentleman, however, went on to another process of argument. He took the school population, and he asked us to believe that the population as there stated is abso- lutely correct. I hold in my hands the to. port of the minister of education of the pro- vince of Ontario for 1884, and as the boa^ gentleman made his statement in November, 1884, I have a right to assume that this ia the book from which he took his figures. Yet on the very threshold of his enquiry, if he had chosen to read it, in the very first re- port of an inspector published in this book, what do we find ? " The average number of days the schools have been kept open is 207.8, or one fourth lesa than for 1881. The number of pupils, 5 to 16 years of age, enrolled Is 5,215, oi' 24 less than the previous year. It Is to bo noticed that trustees' returns made the number of pupils resident December, 1882, 423 less than at i he same date i he previous year. Consider! ng that the number of students enrolled In 1881 was 581 less than the number returned as resident, and that for 1882 the number enrolled ap- proaches within 182 of those resident, I cannot 'A:, I i ill ii bat think that the census has been defective, and that there are more than 6,307 chlioren residcuts la the county." [Hear, hear. ] That is the statement from the very tirst report of the inspector in the very volume which the hon. gentleman has taken 'for the purpose of using the figures, declared by that inspector to be inaccurate, to be no- tofiouHly inaccurate ; that is the report of the inspector which the hon. gentleman met at the very threshold of his enquiry ; and yet he was bound by his sense of duty, by that over- whelming disposition to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, to ignore that state- ment and take those figures as if they were absolutely correct, although I may fairly say that they uear evidence in the very character of the figures themselves of being anything bu** correct. [Cheers.] Taking those school figures, what do we find ? The school popu- lation between five and sixteen years in 1874 was 511,603, in 1878, 492, 360, or a decrease from 1874 to 1878 of 19,243. In 1883 the num- berwas 478,791, or a decrease of 13,565. So that the average yearly decrease from 1874 to 1878, according to the figures which the hon. gentleman relies upon, was 4,811, while the average yearly decrease from 1878 to 1883 was 2,714, showing a smaller annual average decrease during the latter period than during the former. The hon. gentleman was in office during the whole of the former period. Whoever then thought of taking up the school statistics for the purpose of injuring the hon. gentleman even at the risk of injuring the country, or whoever attached any importance to those statistics, as showing that this coun- try was not reasonably progressing ? Mr. Mills — What figures were appealed to ? Mr. White (Gardwell) — Certainly not these school figures. We knew they were inaccur- ate — they bor'i inaccuracy on the face of them. No one could look at the figures without knowing they were inaccurate. [Hear, hear. ] Look at the figures and see how they stand. Take the town of Belleville. We have the number returned for four years as 2,610 each year, not one more and not one less. [Laugh- ter.] That one fact, together with the report of the inspector, ought to have taagat the hon. gentleman that this was not a safe weapon for him to use in order to show that our population is diminishing. Take the city of London. I find that for three years, 1881-82-83, 4,900 was the exact figure, neither one more nor cue less. Then I find St. Catharines had a little bit of an increase, a slight change. In 1880-8 1-82 there were 2,500 for each of those years, neither cue more nor one 1«8S ; but in 1883 there was an increase of 60 — ex- actly 60. [Hear, hear.] But I will not de- tain the house with going through this list of figures. If you take towns that are familiar to all of us you find similar inaccuracies. Take Peterborough, which has been growing rapidly and iu an importanlf railway and in> duRtrial centre, and what do we find by these figures? We find that they show 1,950 in 1880, 1,800 in 1881 ; the number went up to 2,000 in 1882 \ and in 1883 the number was 2,000 still, exactly the same figure, neither one more nor one less. I might go through the whole of the figures and show that on tho face of them they bear the evidence of being utterly unreliable as a basis on which a fair calculation could be made as to the movement of population in Canada. [Cheers -J ;^»i,;; MUNICIPAL AND AMERICAN STATISTICS. Then I take another point with respect to them. If you take the municipal statistics to which the hon. gentleman attach) : some importance, what do we find ? Take the municipal statistics and the scuool statistics for 1878-79-80-81-82-83—1 will not trouble the house with reading them — and what do we find ? According to the municipal statis- tics the population of the province increased during those years 64,341, while, accord- ing to the minister of education, the school population decreased 13,596 during the same period. It is certainly remarkable that so far as the school statistics are con- cerned the same fact is apparent in the United States as here. In nearly every state of the union you find that while the popula- tion has increased there has • been a decrease, apparently, in the school population. For instance, in Connecticut there has been aa increase in the population in six years of 51,000. and a decrease in the school popula- tion of 8,000. In Illinois there has been an increase in population of 161,400, and a de- crease in pupils of 9,?i33. In Tennessee there was an increase in population in two years of 56,800, and an apparent .ilecrease ia the ichool children, according to the school returns, of 25, 7S5. Take the great State ot New York ; there has been an increase in the population during those ten years of 700, (aTo, according to the census, while there has been an actual decrease, so far pa school returns are concerned, during the same pe- riod, of 6,820. The whole of the statistics, both in the United States and Ontario, show that the school returns — and I do not say that as attachinK any fraudulent blame^to any per^ i«oa conoected with them — almost from the iocidents connected with the collection of these statistics, are utterly unreliable as a basis of calculation in connection with the population of the country. [Hear, hear.] GROWTH or PARTICULAR DISTRICTS. 'Vhe hon. gentleman assumes that we have lost population. It is rather a remarkable thing that in certain portions of the country —I take Ontario and Quebec particularly — there has been a remarkable increase in the population. I think we may lay it down as alm(;st an axiom, in dealing with the move- ments of population, that in the rural dis- tricts, in the agricultural parts of the coun- try, as the country gets pretty well settled, the population becomes practically station- ary. The inciease will bo found in the ur- ban and suburban populations within those districts, but so far as the agricultural por- tion is concerned the population«doe8 not show any great increase. But where you will find the increase is in the newer districts of the country, to which tbo young people and even the old people remove themselves, to find in them an opportunity jto devote their enterprise and industry to building up homes for themselves. We have had that going on at all times in Canada in the newer districts of the couniry — in the county of Huron, in the county of Bruce, and now it is going on in Muskoka and Algoma, and in many places in the province of Quebec I am happy to say the same kicd of thing has begun to go on. (Cheers.) Take, for instance, the district of Saguenay and Chicoutimi ; according to the censuses of I87I and 1881 the increase in that district was 68 per cent., and I believe that if th(» people of Quebec are successful in the enterprise they have in hand, the Lake St. John railway, the population will show a much larger increase at the next census than it did at the last. There is in that country at the head of the Saguenay, as it is said by those who know it, almost a new— Northwest, I was going to say — but, at any rate, a great north, almost equal to the great Northwest for agricultural and other purposes. [Cheers.] Takethe county of Ot- tawa ; I find that the increase there has been far in excess of the general increase of the country. Twenty-nine per cent, was the in- crease, and there, too, as these new railways go on, as those settlements increase, which are happily goin^ on at this moment under the direction of the Rev. Cur6 Labelle and other persons, who will find that a large number of people will go and settle in those newer parts of the country, which before were looked upon as uninhabitable and utter, ly useless, except perhaps for raising timber. Take again Munkoka, in the Province of On- tario , I find that from 1871 to 1881 the popu. lation of Muskoka increased over 400 pei cent. I find that in North Renfrew, where there is a large district opening up for settle- ^ ment, the increase was 51 per cent. I find' th.'\t in South Renfrew the increase was 36 per cent. ; North Simcoe, 46 per cent. ; Al- goma, 189 per cent. [Hear, hear.] TUH ONTARIO OEKRTlfANDKR BILL. And, Mr. Speaker, it is rather a remarkable thing that while we have here hou. gentle- men telling us that the population is not in- creasing, their friends in the legiblature at Toronto — so convinced are they of the enor- mous movement of population to the Algoma district — have actually introduced a bill for the purpose of giving an additional member to Algoma, and they have made me of that fact to efi'ect a gerrymander system — Mr. Mills — No. Mr. Whitb (Cardwell) — Who says no ? Mr. Charlton — No. Mr. White (Cardwell) — All I can say is, that in my own constituency of Cardwell no- body will recognise it as it is fixed up now, with the simple object, and none other, of giving Mr. Chishol la safe seat in Peel, which he would certainly have lost if the conditions had remained the same as they now are. (Cheers.) For the object of possibly securing one safe seat in Simcoe we find that we are given two for the local — and 1 am not sorry that Cardwell is to be made a good constituency — a majority of some 400 and odd, when before we had only 40, after very hard fighting. But I say that these gentlemen have in Ontario, for the mere purpose — because that is the pretence — of giving an additional member to Algoma, in- dicated the fact of their belief in the enormous growth of population in thai district, and for the purpose of giving this additional member they have introduced this remarkable gerry- mandering bill, v^hich, I am bound to say, utterly puts to shame any efforts made in this house ia the way of a redistribution of seats, and which, Mr. Speaker, will entitle — not the hon. gentlemen in this house, of course — but the liberal party, to continue to deserve the name which was given to them some years ago by one who knew them well-^K)f the party of organized hypocrisy. THI QUK8TI0N OF lUUIQRATION. ^'jw, sir, the hon. gentleman objected Terj 8 aanch to immigration. He told ns immigra- tion Hhould practically be stopped. He said that, in fact, to invito ImmlRrantB into this country was simply to bring people here who could only get food by depriving Homonative- *born Canadian of his means of live- libood. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am a native-burn Canadian, and I am prond of it ; but I am bound to say this ; my father was not a native-born Canadian, and 1 am not going to say here, that because he wag not a native of this country he was not just as good as if he had been born here. This country lias been made by people w ho came from the old world ; it is being made now by the sons of Iuoho who came from the old world, and this attempt to organize a know-nothing r lub in Canada, and to declare that no man shall have a position in this countiy unless he happens to be a native- bom Canadian, no matter how long bo may have resided here, and to do so in the in- terests of persons who have largely como to the country within a comparatively few years, is a policy which I venture to think will not meet with much sympathy outside. [Cheers.] Now what was the conduct of the hon. gentle- man's friends and himself wbenhowa»in office? I think we may fairly say tha*. in those days the condition of the labor market was certainly as depressed, to say the least, as it is at the present moment. In 18U the number who came into Canada, the number who were encouraged to como to Canad urcd to detain the house thus long upon it, cause I notice that it is one of tite spocial rguments which are being used, and I bo- Jeve it is one of the arguments which, in Dgland, has most effect, in deterring per> ns not only from coming to Canada, bat om taking an interest in ("anada. I can re- ember, sir — I do not know whether I liave entioned it in parliament before — when in ngland, in 1870, as a commissioner from the rovince of Ontario, ad they did mo the honor call me — I remember being in the House f Commons when Mr. Mcllullough Torrens Toiight up a motion on the subject of state id to emigration ; and I remeoiber Sir /barles Dilke, as an effective and lonc'lusive answer to the proposition to lid cmlKration to Canada, stated that we were osing more population than we were getting Dtu the country by immigration —that is to ay, that the population of the country was absolutely decreasing instead of increasing, I mow that his argument was regarded as most iffective. I do think it is most important in he interests of the country that the simple ruth sboulJ be told, in order that it should )e shown that these statements — i\nd the ton. gentleman gave us the advantage of soe- ng upon what ho based them — are utterly un- 'eliabie and are grossly exaggerated iu rela- ion to the actual position of the movement >f population in Canado. [Cheers.] Now, lir, I come to another point upon which tbe ton. gentleman dwelt with some earnestness, vnd that is as to the IZPBNDITURB AND D9BT OF THK OOCMTRT. do not inrend going into this subject at any eat length, for the reason that I think tho itatement made by the hon. finance minister n that Rulvjtict is in itself thoroughly com. ilete. He took, as he had an opportunity of king, two periods of five years, and he aver- ged the expendituroduring those two periods |or purposes of comparison. Now, I do not ropose to do that, but I propose to take two ears; I take 1875-76, which may be said to ve been a year of plenty in one sense if ot in another ; because, I suppose, at t time honorable gentlemen opposite ought themselvob firmly fixed in their ts, and believed that they were there, at lUy rate, for a great number of years, if not r all time— I take l.'»75-76 and the year 883-84, lor purposes c comparison. The expenditure for the first year was $24,488,373, and the expenditure in the second year wa» $31, 107,706 ; so that the exccsa of expendi- ture in the latter year over that in the former was $0,619,334. Now that, on tbe fa«o of it» is a largo increase ; nobody can doubt that. As to whether it is a wise increase ar not de- pends entirely upon an examination of the figures by which it is made up. The increase is mode by increases in the interest, sinking; fund and charges of raanau;cmentof tho publio debt, amounting io $1,901,945; increases ot ordinary expenditure, amounting to $2,624,- 540 ; and increases in tho collection of rev- enues, amounting to *?,, 079, 488. Now, sir, as to the first of these payments : the increase in the net debt since 1878 amounts to $57,- 610,336, or 46 per cent. But, sir, the ex- penditure upon capital account in connectioa with the great works upon which the ^'uture of this country largely depends, has increased during that period, $81,822,923, or $24, 211,- 587 in excess of the addition to the publio d«bt. [Hear, hear,] Then, in thie increase to the pu'olic debt wo have included on the Canadian Pacific railway alone, no less thaa $44,353,705; and we have, »s debts to the provinces assumed by the Do- minion, that is, simply giving back so much money to the provinces, $7,172,297. But, sir, while the debt has increaseci 46 per cent., what it is important to remem- ber is, that the burden of the debt — the in- terest and other charges, the payments which we have to make from year to year and which may be said ^o be the measure of the bu*dei» yji the debt — have only increased 25 per cout,.; so that we have an increase of debt of 46 per cent, and an increase of charges connected with the debt of only 25 per cent. [Cheers]. N9W, sir, I take the ordinary expenditure, which has {ncr*"a8ed $2,624,5-40 — and prac- tically the whole of this increase is included in five items, namely: Public wDrks, $959,- 910; mail subsidies and steamboat subven- tions, a uew item, $238,054; railway sub- sidles voted by parliament — and I believe the different sums which go to make up thi» amount were voted without division — $204,- 090; Indian grants, $839,831; and the- Mounted police, $1 16,465 ; or in all, in the3» five items, $2,558,360, or within $65,190 ol tbe total increase that has taken place be- tween the ytuT 1876 andthe year 1884. BOW ORDIN ART KXPSNUITURE INCREASED. , Now as to these items, I think there is no difficulty, not only in explaining them, but in justifying them. TUe expenditure on X ■ .i •■ i ; ;t ;;,j^..M-. Illfi I III I j I ! 10 public works has all gone to the country. When a country is tvell off, w'len there are surpluseb in the treasury, it is a wise policy ' and it was the policy announced by this gov- [ornment, that during such time there should / be a generous system of dealing with public works, that ue.r buildings should go up where required , and the money wr.8 voted by parliament, if 1 mistake not, without any one objecting to a single item — nao, if 1 mis- take not, the only complaint made was, that there was not enough voted, that there were not moro buildings to be put up than were pro posed to be erected according to the estimates. Then there is the item of mail subsidies and fiteamisLip subventions, i.n expenditure entire- ly in the interest of buildicg up the trade of the country. The railway subsidies were voted without oppcition in parliament, *)oth sides agreeing to the grants. The estimates with regard to Indians and Mounted Police have relation to maintaining the peace and welfare of the great Northwest. In the olden days, when the Hudson Bay company were a monopoly in the North-.^est, they looked after the Indians ; true, they paid less for the furs and got more for their goods, but thoy paid considerable sums in a direct way for the maintt .liince of the Indians and the preserva- tion of peace. Since that time thfc buffalo, which is the natural food of the Indians, has practically disappeared frotu the Northwest, and the question which we have to deal with is whether we will feed or aght the red man. Our friends across the line have tried the figiitiug process, and the history of their western country is a history we would not de- sire to aee repeated on Canadian soil. The expense, therefore, on the Indians for the purpose of maintaining peace and order among them and giving security to the set- tlers is one that cannot be cavilled at, and the same argument applies equally to the grant for the Mounted Police. As I have said, on these items we have, within $G5, 000, theen- tirw increase of our expenditure from 1876 to 1874. Take the COST OF COLLECTING TUB REVBNDB. The increase of that is $2, 079, 488, but the re- venue itself lias intreased in that same period to $9,274,373. Of the items mentioned in the cost of collecting the revenue, the post office shows an increase of $690. 138, railways, can- als and public works, $1,258, 293, or together, $1,948,431. But the increased revenue from these sources shows $281,261 in excess of the increase of the cost of collecting, bo that after all, with regard to these two items, wbich are (he largest in connection with the collection of the revenue, we have, tjs the result of that I larger expenditure, an increased revenue of| over $250,000 in the public treasury. Out- side of these two items the increase in the! cost of col'ecting the revenue during that! period was only $131,056, aLd the increased I revenue collected by that $131,000 wasi $8,993,111 ; or, in round figures, we collect- j ed $9,000,000 increased r«venue by an in- •icased expeudituro of $131,000. fCheers.jl I do not think that fact indicates that wanton I extravagance, that disposition to play the I spendthrift in connection with public moneys, I which hon. gentlemen would lead us to sup- pose has characterized the administration of| public affairs by the present government. Tra INORBASB IN THK PUBLIC DHET. The statement is very often made, and it I was made in this debate by the hon. member for South Huron (Sir Richard Cartwright), that the debtor has enmously increased, and we hear hon. gentlemen opposite frequentlv referring back to 1867, in order to show how serious has been that increase. V/ell, since 1837 the debt has increased by $106,433,209, but the capital expenditure during that period has been $29,374,000 io excess of that in- crease. What were the causes of the increase. Wny, here are four items alone : The debts allowed to the other provinces $27,624,638— surely that is not an increase of the burdens of the people ; it is a transfer of the burdens from the people in the'r character of members of the provinces to the same people in tbeir character as members of the Dominion. Then there is the Canadian Pacific railway, $47,- 291,564; the Intercolonial railway, which was the work of both pai-ties, undoubtedly, whatever may be said of the Canadian Pacific railway, $29,486,027; public works, canals, etc., $31,4#4,938 — or on these four items alone we have had an expenditure, aince confederation, of $135,807,209, eras I have said, $29,374,000 in excess of the entire ad- dition to the public debt. [Cheers.] Sure- ly, when we are able to show as assets great public works for that increase of debt, we may say that the country is not chargeable wit. loss under the management of its affairs in this respect. If we take the credit of the country which, after all. is a very fair indicatio: of what is the estimation of our position by people outside, who study our affairs to some extent, if you take ihe con- dition of the credit of the country during the two periods, 1867 and 1884, 1 think you will see that it stands in toltraJ)iy good credit. In 1867 the average intereptonourdebt was 5-41; to-day it is 4 06, «r, in other words^ while the '•'■■s :. -- 11 e result of that Bed revenue of) treasury. Out- [ ncrease in the) ue during thatf the increased $131,000 wasj res, we collect, enue by an in- )00. [Cheers. J ' tes th&t wanton I >n to play the| public moneys, lead us to sup- Iministration of| overnment. ILIO DBET. ii-ir^^ made, and it hon. member rd Cartwright), ' increased, and •site frequently ler to show how •. V/ell, since ^$10(>,433,209, ring that period !ss of that in- I of the inciease. le: The debts 3 $27,024,638— of the burdens of the burdens cter of members people in tfceir >omiuion. Then railway, $47,- raiiway, which I, undoubtedly, /anadian Pacific works, canals, lese four items enditure, isince )9, or as I have the entire ad- Cheers. ] Sure- how as assets that increase I country is not be management If we take the , after all. is a s the estimation side, who study ou take :he cou- ntry during the L think you will good credit. In rdebt was 5 -4 1; v'ords^ while the jgregate debt has increased 145 per cent, the iterest charged has only increased 79 per Bent. Now, if we take the increase of debt luring the lact and the present administration, re find the increase from 1874 to 1879 was (34,665,223, averaging $6,933,045 a year ; iTrom 1879 to 1834 it was $39,171,663, or^ de- lucting tl <) amounts paid to the provinces, rhich we have fairly aright to deduct, of $7,- 172,297, this leaves an increase, during the period the present administration have been office, of $31,999,366, making an average .imual increase of $6,399,873, or $544,- |172 less than the average annual in- crease during the preceding five years. |Then the net increp,Be shows a still Ifurther decrease. The increase in the annual |average net interest during the period of office 0* hon. gentlemen opposite was $222,345 ; rom 1879 to 1884, under the present adminis- Itration, it has been $124,047, showing that [while the debt has increased almost in as [great a ratio during the one period as during [the other, the inerease in charges far interest [has been nearly $100,000 less. Extravagance |cr economy are, after all, relative terms. If, for instance, you take a farmer, and that is the principle on which hon. gen- tlemen opposite argue this matter, who starts uut with 100 acres of land and who shows, by his books, that to cultivate that land costs so much ; and if, after ten or fif- teen yecrs, you return and tiiid he has 800 acres of land under cultivation, and that in consequence his expenses are five or six ,times greater than it was at the outset, what would be said if you were to say to him : Sir, fifteen years ago you only spent $5, 000 a yew; to-day you spent $6,000 a year ; there- fore you are a spendthrift. [Hear, hear.] Yet, tnat is precisely the argument h '•u. gen- tlemen use in dealing with this countiv. COHPAr.ISON WITH THB UNITED STATICS. But, sir, the hon. gentleman undertakes to toll us that w) have increased the debt and that we have increased our expenditure not only very seriously in itself, but that, rela- tively to the United States, this country is Josing the advantage it used to possess of be- ing a less heavily taxed country, with less debt and less annual expenditure. The statement be made at his Montreal meeting was this : " I am sorry to say that the taxation and ex- ! pendlture of the people of Canada per head are ' nearly double those of the United States. In- ■tead of being a lightly taxed country, it is fast bfleomluRcneoftnemost heavily tfxedooua- tries In the world." It is unnecessary to repeat the statements made by the hon. the finance minister in his speech upon this subject. Those statements are taken from official records. Mr. Mills — Hear, hear. Mr. White — Does the hon. gentleman doubt they are taken from official records ? &Ir. Mills — I am not disput^'ng it. Mr. Bowell — Then you are .\pproving, I suppose ? Mr. White — Then I shall assuire in future that when the hon. gentleman ^ays ««hear, hear "in an ironical tone of voice, he is ap- proving of the statement made. That is a very useful thing to know in regard to the hon. gentleman' s utterances. Whatever may be the disputes as to certain items of expen- diture, there are two items that cannoi be fairly included in any comparison between Canada and the United States. One of these items is subsidies to provinces, $3,603,714 ; the other i the expenditure for operating the railways and canals. We have simply con- stituted ourselves a railway company in con- nection with the Intercolonial railway, and tb&t ought not to be charged, as we get the receipts trom it in the same way as any other railway companv. That amounts to $3,302,791, or together these two items amount to nearly $7,000,000, or about one- fourth of our total expend'ture, and they have no relation whatever to any expenditure of the federal govemmtint ef the United States. Mr. Mills — There is the war debt on the other side. Mr. White — Of course they have the war debt, and that is precisely where we have the advantage of them. [Cheers.] They have a large debt incurred for destructive purposes. The hon. member for South Huron (Sir Rich- ard Cartwright) wound up his speech by tell- ing us that that war was less destructive than the public works in Canada. Sir Richard Cartwright — As administered by this government. Mr. White — But it is not necessary, ':*r purposes of comparison, to exclude their war debt. That would be a folly even beyond vhat I can imagine the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Mills; could be guilty of. What I want to point out is, tnat the hon. member ior South Huron, in his reply, did not successfully, did not venture, I may say, almost at all, with any reasonable attempt at accuracy cf statement, to meet the state- ments made by the minister of finance in re* i'.-'^ iitUk mm 12 n gard to the comparative expenditure aud comparative debt of the two countries. ' toVPABISON BBTWBBK ONTARIO AND THB DOIQ- MION. 6nt, after all, there i? a war of comparing this matter of ei^'^nditure which may be worth while referring to. The Lon. gentle- iBian assumes that there ought to be no in- crease of expenditure in Canada ; that we ,, ought to have no public works, no expansion of our rainwa/ system ; that we ought to leave the Indians in the Northwest to do the best they can ; that, in fact, anything like an in- crease of expenditure is, in itself, a blame- able act. W ell, I will take their favorite province and mine, for I iived twenty years in it, and T happen to represent a constitu- ency in it to-day — the province of Ontario. I'hey take the government of the province ot Ontario as their special model, though I do not think it would be mine. [Laughter.] I will take that province which, according to t^ 3 hon. member for South Huron, has been actually decreasing in population, which has been losing its population and has not been adding to its territory, a province where, it anywhere, you ought to have a condition of things where the expenditure might practi- cally be stationary. But what has been the condition of things? Underjthe head of coa- bolidated fund, the Dominion increased its total expenditure, from 1876 to 1884, $6,619,- 434, or 27 per cent. ; and in the province of Ontario for the same period, the increase was $905,632, or 46 per cent. [Hear, hear.] Hon. gentlemen may say that we do not in- «lude in that the open accounts, and that the expenditure in the province of . Ontario has not been so great if the open ac- counts are included ; but I will take certain details of expenditure; take, for instance^ . «vil government. The cost of civil govern- , ment in Canada must, in the nature of things, as everyone knows, have largely increased. The statutory increases alone amount to about f 120,900 since this government came into office. The enormous increase in the North- west, the demands upon the post office, the interior, the Indian office, the large increases ^ which are necessarily coming upon our de- partment of railways and canals for the oon- ftruction ot railw^ys^-all these things natur- ally necessitate an increase in the cost of •ivil government There were none ot f'ese things practically in the province cf Ontario. Tkwre were no stich expansions as required that incrwwe, and yet iu Ontario, between 1876 and li'84, the cost of civil goverameut has increased 16 per cent., while, with all I our extensions, with all our enlargement of I work, it hrxl increased in the Dominion less! than double — only 28 per cent. The admin- istration of justice in the Dominion increased! 13 per cent., and in the province of Outarioj 15 per cent. The cost of legislation, wbichj is a tolerably good test, increased m the Do- minion only $35,538, or 5^- per cent., while! in the province of Ontario it increased $34,-1 499, or 32 per cent. And that is a very fairi test, &nd shows that while m that period wul have only increased the cost of our legisla-f tior *iy 5| per cent, that model governmentl of (..atario has increased it by Si per cent.! The cost of collecting the revenue ot alll kinds in the Dominion increased 43 perl cent.; and the cost of collecting the crownl land revenue, which is the special revenue! in Ontario, which involves the maiBtenancel of a machinery for its collection, inoreasedl 45^ per cent., or 2^ per cent, more thaDi the increase in the cost of collecting for thai whole Domfnion. But the revenue in ^hel Dominion increased 41 per cent., while the! revenue in Ontario increased only 9 per cent.! In other words, it cost the Dominion $2,079,-1 000 to collect an additional revenue ofl $9,247,000, and it cost the province of On-| tario $32,236 to collect au additional revenuel of $50,052. Practically, every additionall dollar of revenue in Ontario cost an addi- tional dollar to collect it. 1 take the expen-l diture upon public Institutions in the pro-| vince of Ontario, and I wan*^^ you to bear ia| mind that this is a province which hoa. gen- tlemen opposite say is stationary in its popu- lation, or, at all events, ia not growing. II find that the expenditure on public buildingal in Ontario has iacreised from 1873 to 18841 by 118 per cent., while in colonization roads,! which may b^ said to have some relation top our public works — except that they variedi mori; during election years and non-eleciion| yeard in the province of Ontario — the in- creased cost was 116 per «ent. Now, sir, I| think that the comparison between the pro- vince of Ontario, the favorite of hon. g«ntle. men opposite, and the Dominion of Canada, is not at all unfavorable io the present ad-j ministration. I think we may fairly say, atl any rate, that the mere representation of al charge of more on one side and less on the! other, a smaller sum' at one period and an in-i creased sum at another, does not in itself in-l dicate that there has been any ext!avagance| iu the public expenditure — or, at least, the hon. gentlemen, with their knowledge of the! conduct of the goverixmeot of Ontario, iheirf 13 pwD friendsi, are not in a position to take that tround. (Cheers.) POSITION or OANALIAN CREDIT. referred, a few luinutes ago, to the question |»f the credit of Canada. Now, as indicating rhat degree of confidence the administration bf the aifairs of this governraent has inspired In that most sensitive of all classes, tbe invest- Vs in public eecuritiasi we might fairly take |be relation which the securities of Canada ear to those in other countries. The minis- er of fi.nance dealt with that question and iv« the figures. If you take the loan of ^876, which the hon. member for South Hu- 3a negotiated, and the loan which was put ^n the market by the hon. minister of nance, I think you will find that the credit ^f tbe country has so increased as to show, at ly rate, that there has been no falling off of snfidence in tbe administration of the afi'airs |>f this young Dominior by the gentlemen who re Jxo\r entrusted with that administration, ["here are two ways of determining tie comparative c^dit of countries, the price bbtained for loans at different periods and the |relc;iion that price bears to securities of other juntries. [Cheers.] The "Cartwright loan," negotiated in November, 1876, was [tlaced at 91. Now, sir, on the 27 th of Feb- lary, 1877, Canadian 4's in the English larket stood at 93^ to 94^, South Australian per cents, at 98 to 99, Victoria 4 per cents. >8J to 99, or an average of nearly 5 per cent, excess of the pric« at which Canadrlan 4 per cents, stood. If you take, on the other ^and, the relative of Canadian credit, as lown by the 4 per cent, bonds in London st month, you will find this : that Canadien per cents, stand to-day at 105 to 107 ; New SQth Wales, 204i^to 105^ ; South Australian, t02 to 103J ; Queensland, 100 to 102^ ; Vic- aria, 103. So that while, in 1877, the rela- ion which Dominion securities bore to those of these Australian colonies was 5 per cent, lower, during tbe month of February last tbe {relation they stood in was from 2 to 3 per Cent, higher, so that te-day no securities stand ligber in the English markets than Cunadian ■ecurities. [Chtiers.] But, eir^ there is an- other fact, and although it was stated by the lion, minister of finance, I may briefly re- pr to it, and that is the relations which Dur securiiies bear to American secu- rities. Our 4 per cents, have increased lince ie78 by 17 oer cent., and tbe vaipe of American 4 pei cents, have only increased 19 Br cent. [Cheers.] The hon. member for rath Haron stated, ia reference to tho last loan, that the fiuance minister had a peculiar- ly favorable time v%t which to put it on the market, and he inMmated that it was more fav jrable than the ti^tie when he put his loan on the market. Nov, tbe hon. gentleman put his loan on the market in 1876, in No- vember of that year, and we find that the Bank of England rate of discount from May, 1876, to May, 1877, stood at 2 per cent, which was a longer period than it has re- mained in that position at ao> time since 1867 ; so that if there ever was a favorable time for putting a loan on tbe market it waa when tbe hon. gentleman put his loan on the mai'Ret in 1876. I do not say that he did not get as much for that loan as he could have got ; I do aot say that the loan was not well placed ; I do not say that he could have adopted another plan and got more for it ; I am not going to revive in any way the discus- sions which have taken place in this house lu regard to that subject, but I do say that it ia an extraordinary commentary upon the state- ment which the hon. gentleman has been making, both in parliament and in the coun- try, that the credit of Canada, in spite of thciie comments, has gone on so steadily in- creasing that to-day our securities stand so high that the hon. minister of finance wa» able to ]iut a loan upon the market at such aa excess of price over that which the hon. mem- ber for South Huron obtained, that the differ- ence in the interest charge in fifty yearo will wipo out the loan altogether. A stronger il- lustration of the inci eased credit and confi- dence in our financial soundness It would be difficult to find. [Cheers.] O/BTWBISHX VIB«nS OASTWBlGHT. Now, in regard to the relative raerits of the two governments, the hon. member for South Huron took occasion to read irom the Econo- mist, of 1874, a V jiy startling statement. Ho poes not give the name of the writer, and, oi course, he i not called upon to do it ; but he says it is a gentlemnn with whom he is well acquainted, and he wrote to the Economitt at that time as follows, with reference t* the ooudition of Canada : — " Thus," be says, " a splendid position hae been changed into oae of clanger, if not of im- mineut dauger. At tbe begiuulng, there i^» moderate surplus upon moderate totals of re- ceipts and expenditures. Then these totals on both sides lucreat"!, with a very large Hurplua. Fiually, there is r,a enormous increcse of the total on the exiK^ndlmre side, with a denclt of nearly half a million pouuds sterling. It is not difficult to see how all this has beea brought about First oi all, the great expeudi- tura on new works baa gradually Increased the direct charge for debt Interest. The second ,/:y?:'l. ■^ ...... , 'v: j ^.^ . A- U Ill I iiWHWIi II I'll! 1 liii .u eause of increased erpenditure has been the maintenv.ncu aad working of certain undor- taklDKS which were Intended to be reproduc- tive, but so far from having that character are a direct nourco of loss. The i bird source of li> creaqed expenditure has been the political ex- lension of the Canadiau dominion. The incor- poration of outlying provinces, like Manitoba, fsimmcdiately a source of expense, Just as Centra'. Asia costa money to the Russian government, and many of our Indian provinces gleldijss tljaa the cost of governing thera. a Cdnada has tidded to itself a territory which ia a bardenaorae charge. The older and rlch<-r ftrovlaces of Canada are, in fact, paying heavi- y for the accomplishment of certain political ODjocts, and, now that the penalty mu? be paid for ail the -e extravagances, the history may be loft to tell its own tale. There is no kind of expenditure which requires more care- ful study beforeliand and more rigorous i-e- fitr'ction by governments than expenditure on neiy public works. Territorial expansion is also a luxury, the cosiof which should be care- fully counted beforehand. Canada has com- tolited the most serious blunders In both respects, and the result Is the large deticit and t'ae disagreeable outlook we have described." ' Now, sir, I did not quite understand from the hon. gentleman whether he approved of that statement, and whether, at the time it was written, ue thought it fairly and properly described the position of this country. Why should he have presented it and read it unless he intended that to be the case? Yet what do we find 7 That the hon. f^entleman nas in England, a short time afterwards \ that he being in England istiued a circular to the people of the United Kingdom, and I find that circular, which has relation to those very matters which are referred to here, contains some very valuable statements which certain- ]y are not in accord with the extract he read to us from the Econortast. This statement, I fird, is signed bj "Sir Kicbard J Cartwright, Minister of Finance for the Duminioa of Canada." I find it is dated 19th October, 1875, and that the statement in the Economist read to us, and which I presume he believed to be a correct statement, was dated 1874. The hon. gentleman being in England — I will not read all the circular — made certain statements, I say, which are certainly inter- «sting. He says : — " The uet publlu debt of Canada of all kinds, after deduction of bxnkers' balances, Kinking fundinves ments, and other ca» o' (he country. Perhaps one of the most striking ways is to take the imports of coal into a country — the consumpaon of coal indicating the character of the manufac- turing industries of a country. I dnd, sir, that of coal — which is an especially good test — the importations were as follows : — Of anthracite coal there was imported, in 1878, 420,110 tons, and in 1884, 868,000 tons; of bituminous, there was impor ed, in 1878, 513,970 toAs, and in 1884, 1,118,615 tons, or altotrether there was imported in 1878, 933,980 tons, and in 1884, 1,986,615 tons, or an increahed importation oi coal of 1,053,635 tons ; and I find that the increased output of Canadian cot;! during that time, accordinif to the statement of the miriiBter of finance the other nigbt, was 900,000 tons; so that we have an increased consumption of coal in the country, between 1878 and 1884, of 1,952,- 635 tons. [Hear, hear.] I think, Mr. Speaker, that this is a tolerably good indica- tion of the growth of industries in this coun- try during that time. Then, sir, another indication which may be taken is the in- creased importation of raw material, which, if hon. gentlemen will take the trouble to examine the figuies, they will find has in- creased about the extent of $1 3,000,000. Our {cotton mills, fur instance, it has been said, I have been standing still ; and yet, curiously I enough, we have imported, of raw cotton, in 1 1884, between 19,000,000 and 20,000,000 j pounds, against about 7,000,000 pounds in 1 1878. That certainly does not indicate that {the cotton mills have been standing still. [Cheers.] They have not been run- nmg as constantly as they were before; they have not been running full time, and some of them h«ive been stopped alt«gether for a few weeks or months, although business is now reviving and they are beginning to ran again. But in the facts of the importation of raw material and the consumption of coal, we have an indication of the growth of in- dustrial enterprise in the country which shows that the statements made in the commission- ers' report are what one might expect would be established from the figures furnished by the trade and navigation returns. OADSBS or DEPSI3SI0N. Now, sir, times have been less active per- haps — that would be the proper way to put it — less active recently than in 1882 and 1883, and there are reasons for it altogether apart from the question of the government policy or any policy that might be adopted. We had first a large withdrawal of capkal from legitimate enterprises to put into speculative enterprises in the Northwest. In Toronto, for instance, when the Northwest Land com- pany, which had bought a large quantity of land from the Canadian Pacific Railway com- pany, opened their books, I am told there was almost a riot in the effort to get into the room to subscribe for the stock of that com- pany, so valuable was it supposed to be. People were anxious to go into all these new enterprises. The tendency of the age, I am sorry to say, is a gambling tendency, in com- mercial as well as in other matters* There is an eager disposition to make fortunes rapidly. We know that there was an idea that iu the Northwest there was a remarkable opportunity for making rapid fortunes, and people took money from their ordinary legitimate business and put it into Northwest enterprises, and lost it, to the great injury of the credit and busi- ness of the country at large. Then we have had, as a result of the boom thus produced, over-importation. That is an event that comes, as we all know, at regular periods. Fortunately, in this case, I believe the mer- chants of Canada discovered early the mifitake they were making, and they began to pull in sail mu( U earlier than they did in 1874 and 1875. They saw, for instance, that manu- factories were springing up in the country ; they saw that the place of imported goods was being taken by goods manufactured in the country ; they sat down and calculated what the effect of this would be, and they commenced lessening their importations at an earlier period than they otherwise would have done. [Hear, hear.] In the meantime, however, there was some depresaion in conse- quence of over-importation ; but I think the cotton industry may be said to be, after all, almost the only great industry m which then ^ ;■ -^i ,)( ( $i ,11 111" ill 1 ■ I ;IP' I! 18 has been any serious or continued depression ; and is it to be very much wondered at ? We had hon. gentlemen opposite rising in parlia- 'ment and declaring what great profits the cot- ton lords, :.8 they called them, were getting. [Hear, hear.] We had them telling us that the cotton manufacturers were making their 60 or 70 per cent. ; and many people, anxious to make money rapidly, and believing these hon. gentlemen, went into this enterprise. New mills sprang up ; and some of the hon. geatlemen themselves, if I mistake not, were so confident of the success of the policy they were condemning, that they actually put money into these cotton mills. If I mistake not, the hon. member for South Huron (Sir Richard Cartwright) had an interest in a cot- ton mill in the city of Kingston. I know another gentleman who is a very pro- nounced opponent of this government, who was on two occasions the opponent of the hon. first minister in Kingston, Mr. Carruthers, invested money in it, and I think my hon. friend, the present member for Kingston (Mr. Gunn) put money in. [Hear, hear.] These hon. gentlemen, although declaring that the policy was going to ruin the country and everybody connected with it, actually themselves aided in this in- flation and this over production by putting money into these industries. rCheers. ] At the start, the cotton mills all went largely into the manufacture of grey goods, because that was a kind of cotton they thousht they :ould get an early market for, and could turn 3ut easily. [Hear, hear.] The result fol- lowed which everybody regrets. But there is this fact to be«borne in mind with satisfac- tion, that the cotton industry, as every other Industry in the country, is getting down to a business basis ; that people are now more sareful; that they are multiplying the varieties of their products, and are »tudying the market very carefully ; and I venture to suggest, that if each mill had been its own merchant, a gre&L deal of the difficulties that have arisen would not have arisen in connec- tion with the cotton industry of the country. A.11 these things had their effect. Then another circumstance was THK DBPRBOIATIOM IN VALUES. Every one knows that that was a very serious circumstance; it happened in England as well as in this counti^. I find, in the Lon- don Economist of the 31st of January last, an • article on the condition of trade, which I have reason to know is from the pen of Mr. Stephen Bourne, who will be remembered as having read a very valuable paper on Im- perial confederation be|bro the Biitish associa- tion last year in Canada, and who is the chief of the statistical branch of the department of customs in England. He quotes a number of figure!), all going to show that there has l)een a very serious depreciation in the value of goods in England as well as elsewhere. For instance, he takes four classes of goods — textile manufactures, minerals and metals, articles of food, and miscellaneous — and he finds that there was a larger quantity of these goods exported in 1884, by j62,733,000 esti- mated by the price of the year before, than in the year before, and an absolute decrerse in price of £9,605,000. I think that is a re- markable statement in relation to the depre- ciation in values. Then he comes to these conclusions : — "First. During the year Just ended our wholeexports wero valued at £10,000,f*'>0 less than last year, for, althougb our Increased sales are represented by nearly £2,000, lOO for quantity, the fa41 in prices have occasioned them to bring In lessby£12,')00,000. In other word-), our export trade has expanded a little beyond 6 per cent. In volume. This larger volume has shrunk by Just about 4 per cent, in value. " Second. That o' '.rltish produce and manu- facture alone, the increased quantity figures for not far from £3,000,000, or ao the I'ate of IJi per cent, for addition to volume, ac om- panled by a decreased value of nearly £10,000,- 000, or 4Ji per cent." And he makes the general statement that, taking the aggregate trade of Great Britain, the depreciation of val ues alone represents the large sum of £46,000,000 sterling. That depreciation bad i^^s efi'ect. The merchants in Canada had bought goods at figures on which they could not realize a profit. Take, for instance, the case of the sugar refiners. The sugar refiners, many of whom are merchants as well, imported the sugar at prices which they supposed were certain to bring them a profit, because the prices were lower than any known for years, yet the refiners found the prices going down lower and lower, and they had to stand a loss ; but the loss suffered by them during the past year could not, in consequence, be charged in any way to the effect of the National Policy. Owing to the enor- mous depreciation of the value of the raw material, which they had imported at higher prices than they could sell it at, they hiA to stand heavy loss. These ft.cts have tended very considerablf to reduce the volume of business in the country, and to bring about in that way the comparative depression that has existed. (Hear, hear.) The same thing IP 1 1 I ill I! 19 ore, than in haa occurred in the United States. In Brad- street' s circular we find an festimate of tlie prices in the United States of certain articles in July, 1878, and December, 1884. The re- markable thing with regard to that estimate, and it applies equally, I believe, to Canada, irt that while the articles which the farmer uses have gone down enormously in value, the article which he produces, leaving out wheat, or, at any rate, many of them, have actually increased in value during that period. (Cheers.) Those depreciations in the values of the articles which enter into the ordinary business of the country have had the eflfect to which I referred. Another thing which has had a depressing effect is, thst the settlement in the Northwest has not been as large as we reasonably expected it would be. It being six o'clock Mr. White resumed his seat amid loud cheers and the Speaker left the chair. AFTER RECESS. 8STTLEUKNT VA THB NORTHWBST. Mr. Whitk (Cardwell) — When the house rose I was about proceeding to refer to an- other of the incidents which led to some check in the flow of business in this country, and that was the disappointment in relation to the extent of cettlement in our Canadian Northwest. I think we may fairly say that under all reasonable circumstances we had a right to anticipate a larger settlement than took place in that part of the country, but there is a remarkable fact in connection with it, and that is that although the settlement in the Canadian Northwest was not quite up to what was expected, the deficiency in the set- tlement was about the same in the United States as well. In Dakota and Minnesota I find that the proportion of the falMog oif in the previous year was just about as great ds that in the Northwest. [Hear, hear.] For instance, in 1883 there were taken up of homesteads in the Canadian Nor.hwest 970,- 719 acres, and in 1884 582,280 acres. Ot pre-emptions there were taken up in 1883 659,120, and in 1884 364,060. Of sales there were 202,143 acres in 1883 and 213,172 acres in 1884 ; or a total in 1883 of 1,831,982 acres, and in 1884 1,110,512 acres. We find that in Dakota and Minneso- ta the falling off was as follows : From 15,- 196,594, in 1883, to 9,222,757 in 1884. That is to say, the decrease iu the settlement in the Americas territories was 39.56 per cent., and ia the Cauadiaa Northwest 39.92 per cent. , so that the decrease in each country was, in comparison, same. [Hear, hear.] almost precisely the OPPOSITION STA JklNTS IN RBQARD TO THR NORTHWBST. The most serious regret in connection with that is that the falling off is to bo traced to circumstances which I believe were largely within our own control. In the opening up oi that country, in incurring large dbligationa for the purpose of putting a railway through it, to supply railway facilities to the people who might go in there, wo had a right to ex- pect, whatever differences of opinion might exist as to the policy of the government or aa to the manner of constructing that railway, that, iu relation to the effects of that railway upon the country and as to the country.it- self, there would be no difference of opinion. We had a right to hope, and I think everyone will say that it was not an unreasonable hope, that, while we might have our confiicts and our controversies on the floor of parlia- ment as to which wns the better way of deve- loping that country and constructing a rail- way through it, at any rate, as to the country itself, there would be a unity of sentiment in the house and out of it. [Cheers] But wa found that in almost every debate in thij house hon. gentlemen opposite were doing whatever they could to discourage immigra- tion to that count.y, to create au impressioo that it was not a desirable country to emi- grate to, and to depreciate its value in thia way as a desirable field for emigration. [Hear, hear.] We had a member of that party, no less distinguished than the leader of the opposition, at a meeting in Buwm» that a rearrangement of the method of colic f'ngthe duty might have the effect of pr':: .;.ng still further trade with the West luciiv islands to the prejudice of trade with other foreign countries. I know vhey have an idea down there — I am not go- ing to say whether it is a correct one or not ; that is a matter, I fancy, that the people will have to arrange with the government — I know they have an idea that if people could be prevented from introducing raw beet root sugar, they would have a larger quantity of sugar brought in from the West Indies. That may be true, and it may be wise to adopt that policy. I am not discussing that question ; but what I am discussing is this, that the policy which was adopted has had the effect of bringing enormous (juantities of raw sugar from tbfl West Indies, and creating In that way a trads with tliwe coUMtries of sugar production which, at tliat p;irticular time, bad practically ceased to exist. [Cheers. 1 Then, sir, we pointed out to them, with respect to the tea trade, that their policy was destroying the distributing trade in CaiitKla, that the large tea merchants wore being deprived of the business which legilinmtuly and fairly bo- longed to them, and that American merchants were bnci>ming distributors, not te the advant- age of Canadian consumers, but to the dis- advantage of Caniidian merchant."*. We poind- ed out how that might be remedied. But the hoa. gentlemen Kuid : No, we will do nothing of the kind ; that is a matter we have not care of, that aflects us not in the least. Well, sir, that policy wus changed, and what has been the result ? Let the hon. gentleman look at the figures of the direct importations from China and Japan, as compared with what they were in 1878, arily keener than it was before. And all we propose to do, all the government policy proposes to do, is to give to tho skilled, industrioUH, competent manu- facturer tbe opportunity of carrying en busi- ness in fair competition with his American neigb! ors wLo are engaged in tbe same occu< patiou. IMDIOAT10N8 OF IHPROVGMBNT. I believe that at this moment there are in- dications that trade is gritting into a better condition. We have been enjoying for some time past tbe free trader's paradiue — a cheap country to live in. The real trouble has been that articles baver^been too cheap, and that very thing which bon. gentlemen opposite have been arguing we should endeavor to bring about is the very thing which has pro- duc«d tbe difficulty from which, to some ex- leui, we have been suffering during the hist twelve months. Po to a merchant and ask on what bis bojies rest for a revival of busi- ness. He will tell you, in the fact that prices are beginning to stiilen, as be expresses it, and there are likely, therefore, to, be better times. I say there are indications of that at this moment, indications that give hope to the commercial community that tilings are going to be better than they have been re- cently. Then we have an indication in the revenue for the last two months, as compared with tbe corresponding two months of last year, that there is a probability of a revival of trade. I shall he sorry, I have no hesitation in saying it, if merchants imagine that all possible difficulty has passed away. But 1 am satisfied of this, tbat business in this coun- try is at this moment in a condition of greater promise than has pi-jvailed for the two years past, and tbat by reasonable caution on tbe part of the commercial community we are likely to enter upon a period of substantial prosperity similar to that which we enjoyed a year or a year and a half ago. (Hear, bear.) We have some evidences of this in what is said by the people. Take the city of Mont- real, which may be said to be in some sense a barometer showing the commercial condition of the country. The Star, wbich is certainly not a conservative newspaper, and it .s cer- tainly not a liberal one in the part 7 sense, sent a reporter to find out from thw different merchants and LS&ufacturera of Montreal what was the present condition of trade. He found that vast differences of opinion existed. He heard in some quarters Kttitements that there wer« a largo number of people out of employment; in other quarters that time» were tolerably dull ; but he found in other quarters, and the curious fact is, tbat in those quarters wiiere they had the means of making a sub- stantial test, thf condition of things was re- porietf io be a f;reat deal better even than the editor of the Star bad imagined them to be. For instance, Mr. McMillan, superintendent of tho Protestant House uf Industry and Re- fuge, reporis that tliero wore in f. 'iHtitu- tion duriu;^ the tirs*, three weeks 01 /i . , 'ary, 1884, 2,840 inmates, and during the same mouth of 1885 1,95G, a decrease of about DuO. The number of meals distributed, because that institution distributes meals, taking the same months, was, in 1884, 8,4U7 ; in 1885, 6,033, or a decrease of about 2,500. That does not look like a serious condition of things in a great manufacturing city like Montreal. O'i ihe contrary, it shows that the destitution among the working class is just about the normal destitution prevailing at the same season in other years. We have in Montreal, as they have in Toronto and other cities, institutions for taking care of the poor and helpless who will always be with us ; we have those institutions to which wealthy men, recognizing the responsibilities of wealth, contribute of their money in order that persons may nut suffer want or starva- tion ; and we find in Montreal that the con- dition of things is, as I have seated, at that leading institution, as between tbat period of 1885 and 1884. We find Mr. Gilbert, of the Canada Engine Works, saying : — *' The men i -e working full tima. The Arm has discontinued altogether tae manufacture of steamboat engines,, and the employees are engaged solely upt)n work for iho establish- ment, repairing dredges, etc. There have been a large number of applications for work from workmen, sometimes as many as twelve a day, and tales of distress are frequently beard. Thev had no personal knowledge of any cases of absolute want, but had beard rumors of In- stance j m wbich the men hardly knew how to get u living. Mr. Gllbett is of 1 he opinion that there will shortly be an improvement in the state of trade, as matters have begun to as- sume a more favorable aspect in the States. " The railway car wheel manafactory of Messrs. John McDougall <.)re dignified way, in view of what has occurred in the past, of dealing with this question, than would bo the plan of sending commissioners once more to Washington, to be received as unfortunately as our commissioners have been received in the past. [Hear, hear.j Sir, I had the privilege — I regard it as a very great privilege — during six years, I think, of attend- ing the meetings of the National board of tiado of tne United States. I went there, along with other gentlemen from Canada, as representatives of the Dominion board o> trade, which was then in existence, for the purpose, not of urg ng, but of discussing this question of reciprocal trade relations betw en the two ci untries. At every one of those meetings we had rea- sonable and fair discussion ; but if hon. gen- tlemen will look a^ th© records of the Nation- al board of trade during those years, if they will look at the record of its last-meeting, as the expression of theopinion of the merchants o! the United Stattj, they will find that that body, in view of what Canada has done in the past in the way of sending commissioner? to the United States, recognize that all that Canada is jailed upon, to do is to indicate its willingness to enter into negotiations, but that, in view of the past, the first advances ia that direction should come from the United States. [Cheers.] I do not think for a mo- ment that the government ot Canada should stand upon any punctilious form in rega d to a matter of this kind. No doubt a sugges- tion from the British minister at Washing- ton, for instance, that there wi;.s a prospect ol fair relations between the two coantrie"; would at once lead to such negotiations as might result In bringing about reciprocity between tke tw9 countries. But for the goT« ■'I 4: ti |6tiMA»fciM .tSAM,^ 'i la \lm ■ la'mih m ernnient of Canada to do as hon. gentlemen opposite indicate they should do, as the hon. memoer for South Huron [Sir Richard Cart- wright] indicated in his speech, by his refer- ence to this question, was his de- sire they should do — send down to Washingtsn, without invitation, without suggestion, verbally made or received, an- other commissioner, to meet with the same humiliation which was meted out to the late Hon. George Brown when he went there and when he constructed a draft treaty, which practically gave up everything and got com- paratively little in return, and then found that it was not even discussed in the Senate of the United States— that this government should be asked to do that is that they should be asked to do what I venture to say the peo- ple of Canada, having regard for their own self-respect, would not ask them to do. [Cheers.] APPIALS TO THB WORKINGUN. Now, sir, we have had in this debate trom the hoa. gentlemen, and we have seen m other quarters as well, extraordinary appeals, both direct and by way of suggestion, to the work- ingmen of Canada. We had in the know- nothing proclamation of the hon. member for South Huron (Sir Richard Cartwright) a sug- gestion that we were to have hereafter nothing but native Canadians in Canada; that, prac- tically, it was an offence for any man who was nota native Ciinadian to come into the country or to reraaiu in it. [Hear, hear.] We had the suggestion that the policy of the govern- ment in relation to the workingmen, and es- pecially with regard to immigration, h is not been a favorable policy ; and we have had statements by hon. gentlemen on the plat- form outside of parliameot, and by some of them in parliament, calculated to excite the feelings of wo.'kinjjmen against the govern- ment of the day. For instance, as to the question of the terrible burden which has been imposed on the workingmen of Canada, the leader of the opposition, in one of his speeches, in Toronto, I thick, made the state- mcntthat the direct burden of taxation which workipgmen have to bear under the present tariff is about $50 per family. Now, Mr. Speaker, one does not know quite how these figures have beea arrived at; but if you look at the census of 1881 you will find that at that time there were 812,136 families in Can- ada. Taking the accepli^d increase at 2 per cent, a year since that time, there will be an addition of about 60,000 families, so that to- ioij th«re ought to bo 862,136 tkmilieii in tho If he smokes tobacco, is not bound to smoke he bound to take sugar, Dominion. What were the total customs du- ties? — and after all, as a matter of the inci- dence of taxation, that is all a man has to pay in Canada, ber use he does not need to pay any excise du'y- If be drinks whiskey, it is his own lookout ; it is a luxury ; he takes it and he pays for it. that is a luxury ; he tobacco. Mr. Blake — la too? Mr. White — Is there an excise duty on sugar. Mr. Blakb — No ; there is a customs duty on it. Mr. White — I am disjuysinf? the question of customs duties, and I have just stated that the customs duties are what the workmgmen have to pay. Mr. Blakr — Very well. Mr. Whit - -Does the hon. gentleman agree with DC 1' Mr. Blake — No ; what I said was, that the hon. gentleman said the workiugmao was not bound to take whiskey, and therefore tbe excise should not be charged. I ask, was he bound to take sugar, and shouli the customs be charged? Does he take sugar in his ? Mr. White — There is a model temperance man for you. (Loud cheers. ) There is the hon. gentleman who is going to lead tho tem- perance cohorts iu Canada, who is pleading to-day for the support of the temperance peo- ple, and who insinuates that whiskey and sugar are equally unnecessary, are one and the same thing, and that because a working- man is not bound to use whiskey, the same (Cheers.) Well, ' "dd as a necessary \.»key is a neces- '" hether the h^n. argument applies to ' I tiuuk uugar may I of life. I do not ♦h sary of life. I do »">. gentleman thinks so or u '. Mr. Blakb — I do not. Mr. White— 1 do not think so ; but I do think sugar is a necessary of Jifo ; and when the hon. gentlemaa endeavors to draw a parallel between the workingmen' s ability to give up the use of sugai and their j' jility to give up the use of whiskey, he sinip y insults the iutel Mgence of the workiu^raun, whose intelligence, let me tell him, he very greatly undermtes. (Cheeni.) I was saying that the oustomn duties, ati(3 they inalude sugar, are, after ull, what the workingmen may be sai injuring the banks of the country ; that they are taking deposits which otherwise weuld go into the banks of the country. ▲ gentleman, one of the best of- ficers in the service, Mr. Cunningham Stew- art, who is at the head of the savings banks, in the post office department, read a very in- teresting paper before the British Association last year, and I take my figures from that paper. I find, taking the cluuea at persens who are depositing their money in the ^- inga banks, that, in the first place, they com- prise 14,000 formers who had deposits when the paper was written to the extent of the post office savings average per farmer of these hon. gentlemen glad indeed if these for- $4,722,000 n bank, or aja. $337. Now, would be very mers who are getting 4 per cent, for their money, and who, when they v^ufortunately have to borrow, are compelled to pay a great deal more than 4 per cent. — those hon. gen- tlemen wouid be very glad to have these far- mers deprived of ^ or 1 per cent, on their savings. I would like to see some of those gentlemen before an agricultural constituency in Ontario say to the farruers: «' Gentlemen, this coi'.ntry is being ruined, because you are getting 4 per cent, on your savings instead of 3 per cent., the banks do not like it, and therefore yeu must give up 1 per cent." [Cheers.] Then we find that there are 7,850 mechanics who have deposited their savings to the extent of $1,422,000 in those banks, or an average of $131 each. Now surely these mechanics who have deposited these, on an average, sm;Ul sums — sums which certainly would not oralnarily go into a bank by way of deposit — surely it is an advantage, an act of kindness and cc'^ideration towards them, much more valuable than the statements and praises which are bestowed upon them by hon. gentlemen opposite, to allow them this 4 per cent, interest upon their savings. [Hear, hear.] Then I find that there are trust accounts and young children' s accounts to the number of 5,500 and $170,000 or $31 eacj. It does seem to me that is an advan- tage, and I knew the hon. member for West Durham [Mr. Blake] will agree with mo in that, because the other day he urged, in a very admirable speech, the importance of encouraging these childien still further, encouraging them to collect postage stamps and to put a shilling's worth of them on paper and deposit that. Weil, here is an op- portunity for these children to take advan- tage of, with the encouragement of their parents, to collect theii- pennies and half- pennies and put them into the savings bank, a dollar at a time, under the encouragement of their parents, who become their trustees. It is, I venture to say, a way of encouraging thrift among children which is more valuable than that which the hon. gentleman suggests. And for this reason, that the child' may learn not only the benefit of saviug but tlv»t he may gather those savings at a time when he can (et at ki« little bank ud take then out, and It is a great advantage if you can gt^ a little child to understand that, if he puts a penny into a bank, it is better to save it though if oe likes he can take it out — that it is better to leave it there until a dollar has accumu- lated and then to go to the bank and deposit it. But they get their 4 per cent., and the boD. gentleman wonts to give them only 3. (Cheers.) Then there are 3,000 clerks with $174 each; 1,600 tradesmen with $293 each. Probably these are almost the only ones, if they are tradesmen in the sense of small shopkeepers, who might per- haps keep their money in the ordinary banks. There are 1,470 farm and other male servants with $188 each, 1,572 professional men with $249 each ; miscellaneous 1,680, with $128 each -, 12,000 married women with $196 eaeh — women who probably have made that deposit against a rainy diay if L-'.y misfortune should overtake the bread-winners; 10,500 single women with $120 each, and 3,240 widows with $214 each. That is the way in which that $13,000,000 is distributed in the post office savings banks. It shows that these banks in no ser- ious way interfere with the ordinary banking inst'tutions of the country, and I venture to say that the hon. gentleman, when he undertakes to urge that the government should reduce the interest upon the deposits, it< not speaking in tho interest of those work- ingmen whose good opinion and whose votes at this moment he is so anziour. to cultivate [Cheers. J OONTBiLSTKD BTATIiaNTS. I do not wish to detain the house longer, but before I sit down I desire simply to refer to one statement made by the hon. gentleman. After recapitulating all the '"iquities of this government, all the enormous expenditures which it had made, he made up his mind to go to an imaginary statist and find out what he would say upon the question. And he said : — " If I were to take those figures and place tliem in the hands of any statist of reputation, and If I were to say to him that, in a period of eleven years, or a period of six years, as the case might be, these figures exhibited the pro- gress, the increase in populatt'jn, the increase in eicports, the increase ia the iotil volume of trade, ihe increase in debt, and In the expendl- turoofa young country having largefertlleter- ritories not occupied, why, sir, that si atlsiiclan would say to me : It is clear, on the face ot it from those figures, though I do not linow to what country you allude, tnat some great c-la- mity must liave swept over it ; either thdre has been a fea. i«l pestilence, or there has been a fearful wai or there has been a famine in the land: no ordlnarv na.»B«a -wnnlrl imwnnnt. fnf such uezoeedingly Slow progress in a younc country having large resources yet antouchei ; there must have been some great luisfortune. And if I came to explain to him that for twelve years not a shot bad been fired in Canada, that wo had as good harvests and better than our neighbors—" That is including five yews ot bad harvests that they had — " that we had been free flrom earthquake and pestilence, then the statlstioian would have been perfectly unable to account for the fact of this extraordinary and unprecedented station- ary condition of a country like ours, until I had further explained to him that although Pro- vidence had spared hs man had not, and that for the last six years this unhappy country had had a protective tariff, administered by a gov- ernment of practical politicians, presided over by a philanthropic minister of finance, who desires to increase the greatest happiness of the p"eatest number— and I do not doubt the hon. ^entleman'sdesire to increase their happiness— oy giving to a few hundred persons, innuential political partisans, who had access to him, un- limited right to tax the millions of consumers who were not equally fortunate." That ia the picture of this country as stated by the hon. gentleman. Now what is the picture of this country as it really exists, as every gentleman in <.uis house knows that it exists? [Hear, hear.] What has been the progress of this country during the time that the hon. gentleman is pleased to refer to ? If I were to go to the statist, to the same statist, Mr. Speaker, and if I were to tell him that here we four small provinces, with hostile tariffs, with .little or no prosperity among them, united together in a confedera- tion; that during the period to which the hon. gentleman referred they had succeeded In adding to that confederation illimitable fields, the finest wheat field belts on this great continent ; that they had secured an •utlet on the Pacific coast, adding there a province which, although fciuierly called a sea of inhospitable mountains, is fast deve- loping into the condition which its friends believed it would occupy, that is, one of the most valuable and most prosperous of the provinces of this great Dominion ; that we had during that time bound these provinces together by a railway, for the purpose of de- veloping the trade of these several pro- vinces ; that we had built up an interprovin- cial trade, which compensated for the loss of trade which had passed away because of al- tered conditions in foreign countries in rela- tion to the class of shipping, more parti- cularly which is used in the foreign trade of these countries ; that we had man- aged to build a railway which wo were just now completing, some 3,000 miles lonir. which would develon that enormous ^':V: . ,'y.vf V 30) territory of ours, and united by on^ great band the two extremitieH of thia Dominion ; tbat we had a «yutem of iuternal navigation, the like of which the world does not possess, in onr canals ; that we had built through our great 8t. Lawrence, light houses and fog- siM^als until, from the time of entrance at Bi'lle Isle until you got to tho western enu at Lake Ontario, it was almost like going through a street lighted by lamps at night ; that we had adopted a system of marine tele- graphy by which intelligence could be re- ceived in the commercial centres of any acci- dent to a vessel entering that great St. Law- rence ; that we had built up iadustries in the country which were prosperous, which were euplb/ing people, giving them a fair day' s wage for a fair day's work ; tbat we had great centres of population, enjoying all the ad- vantages of old world cities — social, educa- tional, commercial ; that we had the freest *xigtitatious that are .o be fountToa the (ace of tbo globe ; that we had dono all this wlthoat I adding perceptibly one dollar to the burden of taxation per capita of the people — then, sir, I would not be afraid to submit the facts as they exist to the statist of the hen. gentle, max., and I venture to say the answer would be this : — How can it be that, in a country so tavored, there are men occupying positi'^ns io publi« life, pretending to be statesmen, who will undertake to deny the advancement, who will undertake, in the interests of a foreign country, because that is the actual fact, to belittle the land which gives them bread and affords them subsistence ? Sir, I venture to say that the condition of this country fairly stated, as I said in my opening remark, the full truth told, all the truth told, will leave us, in the estimation of those who may choose { to take an interest in our country, in a posi- tion of which every Canadian, every true- hearted Canadian,- may well be proud. (Loud I applaHae.> all this withont to the bardaa of | ►le — then, sir, 1 1 bmit the facts | ;he hon. gentle. 3 answer would in a country so ing positi'^ns in itatesmen, who 'ancement, who ts of a foreign actual fact, to hem bread and r, I venture to country fairly ig remark, the old, will leave irho may choose itry, in a posi- .n, every true- proud. (Loud