IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) k // // /- />*^5' y. .6> I/. 1.0 I.I 11.25 I^|2j8 |2.5 11^ lis i -^ IIIIIM U 11.6 VI VI / -<^ Photographic Sciences Corporation 4^ Li>^ \^^ ^ ^ \ :\ V 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WCBSTIR.N.Y. 14S80 (716) 872-4503 CIHM Microfiche Series (Monographs) ICIVIH Collection de microfiches (monographies) Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques f (meening "CON- TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: L'exempiaire film^ fut reproduit grice d la gin^rositA de: Archives n&tionales de Qu6bec, Quebec, Quebec. 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Lorsque le document est trop grand pour 6tre reproduit en un seul clichi, il est film* A partir de I'angle supirieur gauche, de gauche dk droite, et de haut en bas. en prenant le nombre d'images n*cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mithode. 1 2 3 1 \ V;. vi ^.. ♦ /-ROYAL COMMISSION •t ••^■■ /- / • / INQUIRY / INTO THE — >**»?** ■• •****'*■*• ■ liMSd li u I Hi L MATTER PRCCEEDIN&o OF THE COMMISSION AND DEPOSITIONS OF WITNESSES. BY AUTHORITY QUEBKO DUasAULT & PROUl.X. Phinters 18!)1 VniiaaaMrBa TF 26 B152i 1891 10b52 ^' ■' ^N!.-«.,i;.^;^sWiwrB*..1^pr----- KOYAL COMMISSION INQUIRY — INTO THE — 6,111 MS (JIlUBBsRiimy MATTER PEOCEEDWGS OF THE COMMISSION AND DEPOSITIONS OF WITNESSES. i i I BY AUTHORITY QUEBEC DUSSAULT & PROULX, Printer 1891 DU CAN Phovince ( District q Issued Louis A. J] Judge of tl loftheSupc [stances whi Uct 54 Vict Proci Tuesdaj and ninety ( The Con in tlie Court The prep ulvocatp, hft( The seer ion as it apj INQUIRY INTO THE I 'B'm f)i<0 dSSi,i^i;f(^^ f(sii,wS)Y MATTER CANADA, Province of Quebec, District of Quebec. ROYAL COMMISSIOT^ Jadge of the Court 'of Queen « Ch^^nd L onoZ e Cha^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^' I of the Superior Court, Commiesioners to inquire into and repo t o„^' ? ^.-^"'"^^ '-'"^^^ stances which preceded, accompanied, caused and foWdthp?r!n """^ ""■""'"■ Let 5. Victoria, chapte. 88. in so far as it relat^st^ tr ^^^^^^^ Proceedings of the Commission and Depositions of Witnesses. Ist SITTING. Tuesday, the sixth day of October in the vear of Our T^rH^„ .i ^ • ami ninety one. ^ """^ ^^^ °"« thousand eight hundred Present : The Honorable Mr. Justice Louis A. Jept^ President, ," ," I^ouis Francois Geo roes' Baby, Charles Peers Davidson, -P, ,, . . Commismnera. I Theseceury rea5!i: 17^0^,, e„ST'°" T" ""^ "'" «"' "•"■ "««>''■ ■on .. ,. .ppe„.a i„ .he «„»„ wt "(^f^t i.Lr '°'"'°° °' "" ''°'»' '=<""»'»• Canada | Province of Quebec. V a. R. ANGERS. District of Quebec. J VICTORIA, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the faith, Ac, Ac, Ac. ' To all to whom these presents shall come or whom the same may concern— Greeting : A PROCLAMATION. J.E.RoBiDoi;x,) WHEREASbyareportofthe Honourable Prime Minister, by a report Aity.-ueneral. j of the Honounible Executive Council for Our Province of Quebec and byanorderotOurLjeut.-nant-Govern..r in Council, it is declared that it is advisable in the mterest of the public, that a Royal Commi-sion b -. issued to inqilire into and report on the facts and circumstances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Vict., chapter 8M, in so far as it relates to the Bale des Chaluurs Railway Company ; AND WHEREAS We h ive deemed it advisab'e. in the interest of the good government ot Our said Province, that such inquiry be made ; Now KNOW YE, that by and with the advice of the Executive Coancil of Our Province of Quebec, and underjthe authority of article 596 and following of the Revised Statutes of Our said Province on the subject of inquiries concerning public matters. We do conriitute and appoint the Honourable Louie-A. Jett6, judge of Our Superior Court, ihe Honourable Louis-Francois- Georges Baby, judge of Our Court of Queen's Bench, and the Honourable Charles-Peera David- son, judge of Our Superior Court, all three of the city of Montreal, commissioners to make an inquiry into and report on the facts and circumstances which prece led, accompanied caused and lollowed the transactions made under the Act 54 Vict., chap 88 in so far as It relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, and We do constitute the said Honourable Louis-A. Jett^, j. resident of the said commission, rs. And for that purp. se, under the authority of the said article 596 and following of the Revised Statutes of Our Province t,f Quebec, We ,1o give t.. the said commissioners, all the powers granted m and by the said articles, and particularly the power of summoning before them any witnesses and of requiring them to give evidence on oath, orally or in writing and to produce such documents and things as they may deem requisite to the full investiga- tion ot the matters into which they are appointed to examine, and We do authorize the said commissioners to employ a clerk, stenographers and other officers who may be required and to cause the minutes of their proceedings, the proof and their r.-port to be printed. ' And We do order that the sittings of the s..id commission be held in the city of Quebec or elsewhere in Our said Province, if the ends of justice require it. Of all which Our loving subjects and all others whom these presents'may concern, are hereby required to take notice and to govern themselves accordingly. In Testimony Whereof, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Our said Province of Quebec t6 be hereunto affixed : Witness Our Trustv and well Beloved the Honourable AUGU8TE REAL ANGERS, Lieutenant-Governor of Our said Province of Quebec. 6 nine.y-one, and in L fi^^Sy^aTof Our Re^ '^ ""''' "" ''°"''"" eight hundred and By command, CHS LANGELIER, The secretary then read the Royal Commission as follows • ^"^o^^^V- CANADA ) ^'ZZ'^/q'SI''- \ A. R. ANGERS. QueenXSider^onle^:^^^^^^^^ ^"'^^'^ ^'"^^^ «^ ^^^ B^^*- and Ireland, To all to whom these presents shall come or whom the same may concern-GBEEXiKO : COMMISSION . ^^eZZ'c;:lltu^r^^^^^^^^^ yeport of the Honourable in Co„n,.il, it is declared that U "ad vi^^ble n the inirr^t f I. O",!^'-'*— t-Qovemor mission be issued to inquire into and renor; - ^ '^^f^^f ^^^ P"bhc. that a Royal Com- accompanied. caused arSloTed"2e tr—o' ^^ circumstances which preceded 88, in so far a. it relates tote7:i:ts"SerLra; CotpVny^- ''' ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^- Our^C::^:::ii1:S;j;::^^>--^e interest of t^ of QScTarrer tLTlStVo^ alS ttL^rT"'' 'Tf °^ ^' ^-^- of Our said Province on the snbw; of in«- • ^°"«^'"g "^ the Revised Statutes and appoint the Tnourfb e SS^ ieST^drT W. do constitute Louis Francois-Georges Baby SL of O r'p ^^f n '^ ^T''"" ^"^'' *^« Honourable powers granted in and by the said artiV InnH^ r ^ , u "^ commissioners, all the them a.fy witnesses and' rqu ring Sm to give'lvidt'^' ' 'T' "^-'"'"""^"^'^^^^'"^ and to produce such documents and tLtTtrr ""**'' '''"^'y ""' '" ^"^'"»f' tigation of the matter. into^H h Sy at fppoined' tTexaZ: "'d"w ^''^ ''\'"" '"^^«- said commissioners to employ a clerk stenotThol ^ examine, and We do authorize the /^i 1 •"W In Testimonv Whereof, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Our said Province of Quebec to be hereunto affixed : Witness, fOur Trusty and Well Beloved the Honourable AUGUSTE REAL ANGERS, Lieutenant-Governor of Our said Province of Quebec. At Our Government House, in the City of Quebec, in Our said Province of Quebec, this Iwenty-first day of September, in the yea.- of Our Lord, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one, and in the fifty-fifth year of Our Reign. By command, CHS. LANGELIER, Secretary. The secretary then read the oath of office taken by the Commissioneis, as follows :— I swear that I will, well and truly, to the best of my ability, fulfill the office and perform the duties of Royal Commissioner to inquire into and report upon the facts and oircumstances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway So help mie God. ' ' CANADA PROVINCE District S^ADA, ) OF QUEBEC, > of Quebec. ) (Signed), L. A. JETTlfc. IN THE CITY OF QUEBEC. I, the undersigned. Commissioner per dedimua potestatem, hereby certify that Lcuis-A Jem, of the city of Montreal, judge of the Superior Court, appeared before me on the fifth day of October instant, and took and subscribed the oath as Royal Commissioner to inquire into and report on the fac.s and circumstances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88. in so far a« it relates to the iJaie des Chaleurs Railway, in conformity with the provisions of the law in such case mad« and provided. Quebec, 6th October 1891. (Signed), LUDOVIC BRUNET, Commissioner per ded. pot. I swear that I will, well and truly, to the best of my ability, fulfill the office and perform ttie duties of Royal Commi>8ioner to inquire into and . oport upon the facts and circumstances Which preceded, accompanied, caused and^followed the transactions under the Act 54 Victoria chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway. ' So help me Qod. -(Signed) G. BABY. II CANADA, I Province of Quebec, >• IHstrict of Quebec. ) |t> ,•1 IN THE CITY OF QUEBEC. the undersigned, Commiosioner per dedimus polettatem, hereby certify that Loois- FEAN50IS-GEOKGE8 Baby, of the City of Montreal, judge of the Court of Queen's Bench, ap- peared before me on the fifth day of October instant, and took and subscribed the oath as Boya CommtaHoner to inquire into and report on the facta and circumstances that pre- ceded, accompanied, caused and foUowed the transi ctions under the Act 54 Victoria, chap- ter 88, m so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleuns Railway Company, in conformity with the provisions of the law in such case made and provided. - * Quebec, 6th October 1891. (Signed) LUDOVIC BRUNET, Commissioner per ded. pot. I swear that I will, well and truly, to the best of my ability, fulfill the office and perform the duties of Royal Commissioner to inquire into and report upon the fa. .s and ciroum- stances which preceded, accompaniedjcaused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleura Railway. So help me God. » "^ CANADA ) (Signed) C.P.DAVIDSON. ^D^^o/S^^' \ I^ THE CITY OF QUEBEC. I, the undersigned, Commissioner per dedimus potestaiem, hereby certify that Charles- fif ^«f.f ^'"''TA ?^ "'^' °*" M°°»'««'' i^^«^ of the Superior Court, appeared before me on the fifth day of October instant, and took and subscribed the oath as Royal Commissioner to inquire into and report on the facts and circumstances that preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions under the Act M Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, in conformity with the provisions of the law m such case made and provided. Quebec, 6th October 1891. (Signed) LUDOVIC BRUNET, ■ Commissioner per ded. pot. that'^fgMtfrii?""""''*^*^***^*^"™""''"'""^'®^*'^ *° ^^^' *°y applications o.rJ' ^-.f^*^",?' ^'^"''^' ^"®^''' ^°"'^®'' 'nfoJ-^ed the Commission that he wished to appear with GuUlaume Amyot, Esquire, on behalf of the Government of the Province and suggested that the following witnesses be summoned : province and Messrs. Gustave Grenier, James Cooper, ' Ernest Gagnon, C. N. Armstrong, Angus Thom, Chry8oet6n\e Langelier, E. Moreau, Honourable Pierre Gameau. i^j . 'H»«i»i«-i I ',i 8 all the information in his power. ^'"'"'' ^™™ ^"^^ *° ^ay to give the Commisaion onbllff/eS-SotTho^ Ee^uire, Queen. Counsel -ake an application respecting the inqutr; „^?f p^ved 7 .T'' '^^"^"^^^ Permission^ The president announced that in vi T ' ^^ '"°" °' *'^'^ ^° '«'"«• itfTf'w'''^^'""' ^* --w\ra^Jotfe^S2l Tt^r*'."' been given of the ten of the clock m the forenoon. ««JOurned uutill Thursday, the eighth instant, at The Commission then adjourned. (Signed) L. LAFLAMME, Secretary, ROYAL COMMISSrOJV ^ CANADA. Pbovixce of Quebec, District of Quebec. Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench LS th HonoZhf p"^"'' ^«"^^'« «^«««^ Babv! of the supenor Court, Commissioner, to inquir^ro it .*''''' ^''^'' ^^^'°«°^' J"dge fltances which ,, receded, accompanied cans^lnifV .?"'"' ™ '^^ f^^^s and circum- Act 54 Victoria, Chapter 88, in «olr it " ,I?^T .?'^"^^^*^^^ ^"'"Pany- "* '' '^^^^^ *o the Baie dee Chaleurs Railway ZndSITTIlTG. On the eighth day of October in the year of n„r t a "inety one. ^'^^ ^^ O""" Lord one thousand eight hundred and Present : The Honourable Mr Justice Louis A. Jktt., president. L0UI8 Francois Georges Baby Charles Peers Davidson, The Commission opened at 10 o'clock. Commissionera Mn Hail made the following motion. authority of the Act 54 Victoria eh 8^^! ' ^ J''"''*'"^ *° ^« «"t'^'-«d into, under th« ™any , aspects utterly lUeglump^^^^^^^^^^^ •of a public wrong. ^ ^^ ^""^ '^"'^'^"1 »« 'he public interest, and in the nature whole facts connected with this public transaoMnn f.. ^^leutenant Governor. The inquiry. It is dear that possibly blame TaZ "! °"' "^ *^« '»'*»" '•»>Je"'» of this XT""'"' "°?'""^ *" ^'^^ ^en'tleman retred to' bu ^ T' "'""'^^^^ ™^^ '^«'^°h in officers connected with the Executive Governmeronh P-'' °"' ^^ '"•^"^ ^'^^ P»Wic Places these gentlemen in .heposition o. J;;:^;::::^'^::^ £^ ^ ' |i 10 " We lespectfullv submit thnf tv. i- ^========== " Quebec, 8th October, 1891. (Signed) J- S. HALL. T. C. CASGRAIN, W. COOK. Mr. B^ique anrf \fr a W.COOK. <^ee.a.tion. 2« ^J^^' ^^ -- ^i»cu.i„, the above appHcation, ...ented a ..tten of the Governmen Tv,'T'''^^^" *« ^^'^'niostnei and t^. n m' Government may not your^elveja, owi " ihe? '' '"'^ ^'^"«« ^our Ho:fo^reither t^o ''^'•'"^^^'*'°" ^^^alf mission to 8ugr8tf.v?.°!''"^ «"^ °ther parties duv 1 ^^"™'"^ ^^^ witnesses of the witnes^ef to ^^5 T' ^"^«*'°"« ^hich may aS 'P??'"'' *'*'''°^« '^^ Corn- other pflrSer du V rt'"""'''/"^ ^^^ ^^^-^rnmentTtfi:^? JL^h'' ''"'' '^^ examination examination of a Lh^ '•"'''' ^^^"^« "'« CommissioranH ff ''■'''■'-'*™'"^^i«" to the W beenre ^LtYetr "'"'" *'^^ ™""- eTp'dtrh^ ''^ ^"^^ "- Government. ' —-oners and the eros.e.a^inS::o'tre^:l?L"hT fl liift^A^ /-111 Quebec, 8th October, lS9l. (Signed) F. L. BEIQUE, G. AMYOT. tf. AMYOT. dealtrSh.'""'"^"^ ™ -''-d to' be sent up to the comm" • P »o tne commissioners to be further Mr. Hall made the following motion. ^n the matter of the sittincB of thA p^™ J^'^nesses be ordered to be in att. i,io„ .- 2. TheHonra\tp''sr:;:r'''^^^'*^«^Q-^- 3- The Honourable Oiar^raVe il/ olT, '' t ^'^°- angeiier, ol the city of Quebec. ^f Test,. ring iion, r to- on : ' of ; on en le . 1 i )t . If 8 l- ^f n e 8 \ r 1 4. J. Chryaostfime Langelier, Esquire of the city of Queber 5. Ernest Pacaud Esquire, of the city of Quebec " 7 stZ Lefage^'CS'Sttl^'^f ^J^r^^^ ^™--' 'T— Works ^ ' ^ "*'' ''^ ^"'^^^' D^P»tJ' Commissioner of Public 9* f?elndefrr;f r'"-' ''*''^ "^*^ "'Q"^^^^'' ^^'^-tor of Railways 10. P-Tr SmfthXuiSTtt1it% ^^^"' ^"^'"-- Assembly. ^ *^' "'^ ^^ Q"^*'^*^' deputy Clerk of the Legislative l"' fuZtlt'' ^f'' °''*'^ "*^ °* Q"^^^^- "^-k manager. i3:p^.rs::fnt;s-'^;^;:;-^^ Peuple. ^ ' *" '''^y "'^ Quebec, manager of La Banque du \t rcCs'E^'^lf J"'"' '^'^'^r*^- ^^Q"^^'-. advocate. 6 SeG Lafrat 'r- °'"'' "'^ ''^Q"^^^"' accountant. Sonat '^'''"""'' ^^'^"''^' "^ ^^« ^''^ "^ Q-bec, cashier of La Banque mie de Notre Dame de Quebec ^ ^ ''' ""'""^''' °*" ^ ^"^'""^ ^'^cono- 2aSreXtT:if;^oS^^^^ 21. Michael S. Lonergr W ''^J^ °^ M""*''^"'. hardware merchant. 22. Henry UMZv^r,Tfu'^^''^' "^ ^*'"*'-«^'- "^vocate. 28. John J. SS?'S r;f R %"''.^^ *=-*-«*«- 24. Angus M. ThI tq"^?: of the"" L'" '" ^"^/^^ ^-)' -"^-^or. leurs Railway Comjany ^ " ^""*'"^'' ''«°^^*'''^^' "^ ^^e Baie des Cha ■ fa }^u'^'''^^^' ^'^"''•«' «fthe c-ty of Quebec, advocate 28. Cl^ophas Beausol i,^s^r; o hVX^^^^^^^ TT^'"' 29. Edouard Garneau. EsquL. onh^ dty ^Quebtr^i^^^^ t^ issue, from time to time, as re^t d t cou.l l" 'f '"'' "Y '''' "'*"««-« ^'^^^'-^id. the several persons above x«entioLrordelrth " a.^^^^^^^^ ''^"""' ''•^''--''^ '« documents specified in such subpoena ^ ^''''^ "* *^"'" »° P' «<^"ce the several custody, touching an enquiry by a slcclmltSlTf /,«""''"'•' '" ^'' P°"«««i"» «nd Ho.eofCon_^ custody or under their control. wL^ef offlc iafor ™^^^ I '^"'"^ P""^"'"" ^"'^ this enquiry, and specially all etters a. d teWr.^nf k ' ?.'^'"« *^« "»"«^" »* "sue i. and all replies to suJh letten, or teWam, Sn tl " H^ rT^ ^'''''''' '""'^ «'• '^"^ ot them and specially all correspondence X^efiial or n f T' "^ '' *•'« P^^^^"* ^™e. selves and Charles N. Armstrong Erne t Pal? AnrMT' "' T' ^'"'^ '^*^««" t^em-' or any of the offlcem or rffid^l- of th! P«5 f -k T *'-'^^"*y« Thorn, and James Conner. -racwL. Of the Bale dcs Chaleui« Railway Company. 'I .ill 12 and5j'„1nlTe':;t^^^^^^ Papers. telegram, his control, touching tL Ce de^i.^ r*-, ''n" ^'' '""^^^ °' ^'^''"''^^ °- ""^er correspondence between him ami rhll m .7 C«»npany'8 matters, and specially all J.Chryso8t6meLangrer tlHonotabL^^^^^^^^ ?'"^« ^^^P^"-' Angus M. i. Mercier; and specially al rooks of account ^^^^^^^^^^^ the Honourable HonorJ all documents shewing in anTmanner "he dis^«2 r'T"' ""*'''' '^™'*«' »'«°'^-books. and of money by him received fJom ChTries N ArZ °' u"^/"* "^ "^"^ ^^^ »' «»m» e. That the said Ja^r^esZ^fclari^TT^'''''"^ ^^^^ '^'^' '^"^ ''^•^"'y- 1«90. S. Lonergan and each of 1^X1^^ ^J^ T f ^^ '^°" '^"'^ Michael and copies of letters and teWmms eTcha^^^^^^ """^'J. °'''^' *" ''"^" '*"'> t^'^g^am, perso„s,i„connection with the ^^descSf.^'^^^^^^ *'.'"'''''''* '"'^ °*^^^ P-^«" °r first day of July 1890. ^"^ ^^''^^^^ Company's matters, since the be oJde^ to'p^sifcf :,T;!bl!;roV^^^^^^^^^^ as secretary thereof ' **"" ^''' ^"^ ^^"^^""^ ^"^ay Co'^Pany in his custody inthtil^'t'c^lyofZwtta^^^^^ from time to time. ' ^ '^"^ Commission with power to counsel to inspect the same Quebec, 8th October, 1891. (Signed) J. s. HALL. Q. C. T. CHASE CASGRAIN, Q. C. in.ui^;orwed::irthTH^^^^^^^^^ r ^°' ^'^^ ^~^- ^^ ^^^ from day to day from 1« oSek"^ 4 oSot wuJ^ would thereafter sit afternoons and Mondays ' ^°"' ^^"^ ''®°«''«' «^cept on Saturday r.f»en«e t, the „e« meeting of the cZmJi^r *™ '° "" '«»"li»«ly "Bh The Commission then adjourned. (Signed), L. LAFLAMME, Secretary, ROYAL COMMISSIOJ!^ CANADA, ) Province op Quebec, } District of Quebec, j Issued under the Great Seal of the Province, constituting and appointing the Honourable Louis ^^Jett^, Judge of the Superior Courc, the Honourable Louis Fkancois Geokgks Tby Judge ot the Court of Queen'e Bench and the Honourable Charles-Peeks Davidson Judtre' of the Superior Court, Commissioners to inquire into and report on the facts and 'circum stances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, m so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway C.mpany 3rd SITTINO On the fourteenth day of October, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety one. ^^b"" uunarea * Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. JEirt, president. " Louis Franjois Geobges Baby, " Charles Peers Davidson, Commiisionert. Honourable Mr. Jnstice Jetti :— Before commencing the proceedings with which Aye have been entrusted, I consider it my duty to dec are, on my own behalf and on behalf of my colleagues, that we mdertake the inquiry without any bias, without prejudice and firmly determined to simply perform our duty, without passion and without weakness. Penorm our In accepting the not very agreable mission entrusted to us, we did not conceal from ourselves that we risk a large part of the reputation for impartiality which he mav hav^ acquired, in being chosen for such a delicate matter. But we thought that by brbgW to the conduct of this inquiry the habits of our judicial functions, that is to say the calmnL, and equanimity, lndlspen^able to the exenise of the duties of a magistrate ITZT wou^be all the more valuable the more political passions are exciSdTnd irritabL "' We will therefore endeavour to be on our guard against such passions and excitement and we are happy to state that our acquaintance with the counsel who are engagedTn tWs inquiry assures us that we will have their assistance and support in the aclmpt ime ' :nr;:tve t;t;' ^"' ^"''''*""' '^ *'^™' ^« '^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ nf ,J^^^^^^-^' "t^.^^ ^^^ '^'^'''°"'' ^^'"1^ ^« w"' *>e called upon to render during the course of this inquiry, whatever may be the proceeding, we will adopt, we are well awSre that "e cannot please every one.and any unpleasantness which may await us will not at aU alln'^ , us We have already a foretaste of this, for two of us yesterday received anonymou ^ tei^ But" we are not surprised at this, for, as we sometimes receive such as judges, still more should we expect to receive them as Commissioner., especially in an affair 'of tL naturT^o tuir/ we know what such acts are worth and we need trouble ourselves no further abou UhTm 14 I may be allowed to add that, during the two first sittings of the Commission, many expressions of opinion were given and many declarati. ,n8 made which, through not contested yt coutiacdicted by the Commissioners, should not however be considered as accepted or approved (if by them. The counsel who appear before us must have the greatest liberty in the exercise of their iunctions m the interest of those whom they represent, but their sayings are binding only upon themselves and upon their clients. There was an expression, however, which I must specially notice and I do not liesitate to any that it did not receive our concurrence w e wish to believe that that expression was uttered unintentionally and we cheerfully make allowances for him by whom it was used, but we deem it our duty to declare that It was wrong to say that the Commission was to be under the control of the Executive That 18 not the way we understand the duty that we have to perform, and we have to SHy that the Commission may be revoked but it shall not be controlled. We wisli to be independent of every interest, of every fission and io do our duty rigorously and impar- Two applications were made at the last sitting of the Commission. The first relates to the procedure to be followed in the conduct of the inquiry We promised to acquaint the counsel in advance of our decision on this point. That is wiiat we have done by addressing the following letter to them : " In accordance with what they announced at their last sitting, the Commissioners deem in their duty to mtorm you that they will conduct the inquiry themselves, always allowing the counsel representing either the ministers, or the electors or other persons whose interest shall be recognized by the Commission, to put any question or cross question that shall be deemed pertinent, and also to produce witnesses, provided that the opportunity and ne- cessity of such additional proof have been previously established. The counsel may have free access to the documents filed with the secretary of the Com- mission during the inquiry." The second application is in connection with the appearance filed by Messrs Cook Hall and Casgrain. v^^un., Objection was taken as to the form of the appearance. We consider the objection well taken and this is our decision on this point • The Commissioners upon the application of Messra. Cook, Hall and Caagrain, advocates and Queen s Counsel, lor leave to appear on behalf of Me^^srs. Villeneuve and Murphy both members of the Legislative Assembly of this Province, order that such appearance be re- C61V6C1* But considering that the third paragraph thereof, which is in the following terms • •' It IS not disputed that a large sum of public mo.iey passed a few months ago inio the hands of a gentleman, who had apparently n.. legal or moral claim to it. This is nracticallv conceded by the First Minister in his correspondence with the Lieutenant-Governor The whole facts connected with this public transaction form one of the main objects of the inquiry. It is clear that possibly blame of a more or less grave character may attach in oon- aequence not alone to that gentleman referred to, but also to one or more high public officer connected wuh the Executive Government of this Province, and this in a manner SaS those gentlemen in the position of having their acts and conduct impugned " Contains allegations that can not be allowed in a document of the nature of a simple it; t( '^1 Com makmg an inquiry into and to report unn„ m , ' ^^'"^'^'^ and Baby, charged wS." coded, accompanied, given rise t^and ?.io v'd th't"' '='^.^"-«'--« -hich Sve p^ . Victoria, chapter 88, in ^o far as it reJats o ^^^^^^ ran.actions made under the Act 54 I shai, be at your di.p^ai to give y:!^ i:::::::::^^^^'^^' ^-^-^ -^ Be pleased, &c., HONORS MtRCIER, It the Com-nissioners desire it I oan fil„ »k- , ^'^"^ '^^'''''''"■" that it would be sufficient toTe nv ann.« ' '^'' ^''''' °^ ''^^^^^l. '^'though it ^eems to m . to hold the mandate which ^lll ^ Tm^i^rt'Jh'' ' '"" '^^^°^^^- ^ ^ ^ -d •^° w"""g- "^"^^' '" ^^^ appearance which I have made Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .•— We give you acte of your declaration «„ fv •reserWngtoou.elvesthe^urtheTi:iSrraL^^^^^^^ P-duction of this letter, We understand that you use the expression • Th ^^'' '^ "^^^^^ary. ••»^°''«- ^ ''"" • ^^^^ t,overnment " in its constitutional Mr. Biique .•— Constitutional, certainly. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— And r ' his^popular sense. Mr.Biique:— In its constitutional sense. Hon. Mr, Justice Jettf .•— .!^I 16 Mr, Biique : — The Lieutenant-Governor in Council. That is, the Executive. Hon. Mr. Justice Jdti : — Including the Lieutenant-Governor ? Mr. BHque : — Including the Lieutenant-Governor. The Executive is composed of the Lieutenant- Governor and of hia ministf rs. Mr. Amyot : — In the terms of the British North America Act. Mr Hall :— May I ask if the enquete is now about to commence. I was going to make an appli- cation to the Commissioners that they would pass an order for the production of any exhibits before the Commission, at once, so that they might be here within a short delay and allow counsel to take communication of the same. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— I may say that we ordered a number of exhibits, notarial documents and othera, to be procured m Montreal, but unfortunatly, we are deprived of our Secretary who is absent and have no report aa to those. We will probably know in the afternoon what papers we are to expect. Mr. Hall .— Some of the papers are here in Quebec, and, with the concurrence of Mr. B6ique. they might be here in an hour or an hour" Hud a half. The correspondence between the Lieutenant Governor and the Prime Minister, and the letters of credit referred to in the matter now under discussion, and the orders in council Nos. 488 and 606 and the reporta of Mr. Charles Langelier to the Lieutenant Governor in Council with reference to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, also what is called the dossier in the Rnilway Branch of the Public Works Depart- ment in connection with the Baie des'Clmleurs Railway. These are all documents which might be brought down easily, Also the letter book of the Department of Public Works since the first of July 18'J0. I would like to suggest also, if the Commission has not already done it, that an immediate notice be sent to Mr. Langevin, the Clerk of the Senate, to bring nil the papers, original.-, and copies, produced before the Committee of Railways of the 5 enate. I have no doubt but Mr. Langevin would come here immediatly on receipt of a telegram Irom the Commission. I may, of course, say to the Commission that these documents are very impoi tant to have here fur the proper examination and cross examination of witnesses and in lact it would be almost impossible to conduct the cross-examination of certain witnesses without havl-^ these documents before the Commission, although we might proceed without them whh the first witness who is about to be examined, as his evidence is of a formal character. J I' Mr. BHque ;— counsel knows m well as I Ani^l !k P°«8'ble this afternoon even • but thJ 71 \ department cannot t ll^Z^l^r^f T:l'^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ documents which it will be necessary to fvI^Th ^ ''''P'^' prepared of the letters anrl but cannot be fyled. ''"'^ '" '^'^- ^^"^ «"g'»«^'« will be exhibited when require^ Mr. Hall:— ^^^^^ Should be adopted. worthy We are informed Si re lb ^r ' tltT ""^ ^'""- '^ ^^°"'^ ^^ ^att : that these exhibits and the rfo«..V^ of the Publl w T^T ^'^ ^*'" '" ^''^ Po««e««ion and dence could be brought here within aVery short til T ^^P'^^^.'"'^"' «"d t'he correspon facihtate the work of the Commission ""'• ' '^"^ '^"'^'^ «"^« ^ would greatly Hon. Mr. Justice Damhon :~ These are the Orders in Council directly connected with the inquiry. ffon. Mr. Justice Davidson ;- The Orders in Council would be Nos. 237 and 238. Mr. Hall:- . mew two 0,-der. in Council, 488 »n > any Order in Council respecting the Baie des Chaleurs matter since the appoint .:,«Mt of shikA/Ommission, and what that order is and to produce it ? A. I will do 80. Q. You have produced the Orders in Council numbers 237 (two hundred and thirty- seven) tuv^ ?"-8 (two hundred and thirty-eight) ? A. Y( Q. rid V 1 . ) the copies ? A. No :\i- Ouniav, c ij renter tl rhen the one om- the nor ■orf Bil? lent rith the the Q. You compared them ? A. Yes, Sir. Q- You swear that thev are tmo ««.,.•„ * *i- . department under your oust",' ' "* °''*'' ''"^"•^' ^°«"-'^"'« -they are in your A. Yes, Sir. Q. There can be no mistake about it •> A. >o, Sir. (twolnlCd'lSt;^^^^^^^^^ Council number 287 A. ^o Sir, I think they are in type-wrTtle" ''"' '"' ''""'^ '"^^'^^ ' A. So S,y '"'' """'" "'' '"^•"•*' '"'"^ i «""e^f ? CJouncil as'^h^'ey^now'^re in 7mi^d"parfr;lnt arJ? ^P'«^"'^.'° ««•*« f"llv if the Orders-in- at the same time a draft of "Ihese Orde" n cZeil fn""' ""' ''"' "°""^'^ '^ '»^-« '"-" If you can m whose handwriting these drifts are , '''"^ ''"'*'"""* "^"^ ^" »"^'e «'«o A. \ es, I will do 80, By Mr. BHque :— Chaleurs Rail way* and th, inquiry whchrnn ™!^ °"^ «""' ected with the Baie dea fact that the question is double' I to the Baie' f'"^."'! ' ^ " ' ^""^ ^"-^'0" to the ''^^Y^her Orders in Council thanlheLofuq^^tfon. ''''"" '^"'"^^ '""''^ '"'-^ have Q. Previously ? A. Yes. Q. You had in \-our mind that ti respecting the present'inouJ^;? "' *''^ ""'' "^^'^'^'^^ to you .f OrJer. i„ Cmn.il A. Yea. im del ion. ty- [J 22 C. N. Armslrang Bworu^n uJ'.^J N. ARMSTORNG, of the City of Montroal, Contractor, being duly sworn on the Holy Lvangelists doth depose and say : Hon Mr. Justice Davidson .-— Q. Where dn yoii reside, Mr. Armstrong ? A. in Montreal. Q. What is your occupation ? A. Railway contractor. Q. You have been a railway contractor for a number of years ' A. len or eleven years. Ohal^urTRlLay C^rmpany/"' " "'^' "^"""■' '^^"""^ '^^""'^''^^^ ^'^ '^« «- ^- the ctni'uctTo'rf or"" \'°"'r1 ""'^ "'' Gomv^r^y, I think, in the month of June, 1886, fur O Ha V. vn "^ f'* ""'' "^ *^ ^^^'^'^y ^'^^^^^^ MetuP^'li'* ''"d Pfl^pebiac y. Have you a copy of that contract with you ? O" Birrwh!"/ T ""' "''^^'^ '° ^""« ^"^ P^P"''^ ^' *"• 0"« of them is filed at Ottawa. VJ. iielore what notary was it passed ? '-'ttawa. & Eetdyf ''°"" ' ''"' "°* '"' ''^'"''' '' " ^'*'°" •''• ^^"^y- ''"* ""« «f the firm of Kitson Q. Perhaps you can in general terms state the purport of the contract ? ficatioi^TrKT*'*"* '"'' ^"l *''' ^"'^t'^uction of one hundred miles under a detailed speci- fication to be done in accordance with the contract between the Company and thepXi Government. The contract wa. to be carried out under certain detTCIp::nicalns tnd redVrCrlt"*' ''^ ^'"^"^^"^" of the contract between the Lnpany an^d t Q. To what hundred miles of this railway do you refer ' *' mil/" '^A '""^ °".®J^""''''*'d """^^^ ''^'^veen Metapediaand Paspebiac, which were the hundred miles under subsidy from the Dominion Government and the Quebec Government. this ?aiU^y T ''"" ""^^^ '''''' '* ""'^^ ''^^^^^^^ ^h-' points it was intended to construct A. The line extended as far as Gaspe Basin. Q. From what point ? thanlhe^St^ftrctTrLf ^^ °^ ""^ '''''''''' '"^^ ^''"^'^ -'--^^V miles further A tH„ ^^t'^P^dia, if I am not mistaken, Is a point on the Intercolonial Railway ' nial t it^y! "" '""'"°" ^'*''''" '^^ ^''' '^'' ^'>"''^"" ^-^^'^^y -"^ the Intercolo- Q. What was the total proposed length of the railway, total proposed length ? A. About one hundred and eighty miles. Q. What was the price you were to receive and how was it to be paid A. 1 was to receive twenty thousand dollars p(-r mile I was to he nniH th^ „.i, i «■ *u co„»n,rr ""'■ '"''°"""' ''"" *■"" '° '"''™ ■" '•' »• "■" 0<'™'"n>enl .ub.idie. were A. The whole of the Government subsidies. Q. But there was a fixed sum mentioned in your contract ? C. N. Armstrunir u ^om^:^Z ri",:"""'™"- " "» ''™ « "»■'■»' »»« Quebec G„ve«^, on the one hundred mile. The local govem.Lm .r T'" ''"" '""'""^^ ^^°""^« P«^ «"« mile which, at that time it was unde^ocii S.fr ''"I ^* ^^'^*^ ^<^^^^ •^*' ^^^^ Per certainty what it would a.uount to, hu Sever t w LT'"''' l"''^ ^'^^^ ^^•-■^' ™« ""^ to 2t!ir^ --— oonver.oui;u:ii:s:s^ a:srt:r:hate.ent Oom^': tt;f ^: -^X::^?:?^^^^^^^^ - ^^« P^ea^u. o^ the caah as the work progressed and the othe. thh'tv fiTel, ""'l^'^'^t ''"'' ^"'""''^ ^^ P'^^^ i^ were pa.d for the land, which was very indefinite Z T '" 'u' Government sold and on, perhaps two or three years. lterwLs,tr8ub«idvhr /^f 'P^^^**' ^"''^^^'y '"^^e^^ Pa.peb,ac and Gaspd w«s also converted and he tWr^ v ^^'"^ '" "'" ''^^''- ""'^« between section were exchange 1 for the second th rtyfive " nf« ''"'' ^^^ belonging to that previous section of eighty miles; thereby givin7the Pn ^'^™'"' ''^''^ ^^'""^^'^ ^^ the ■ seven thousand dollar in cash per mile for ^e eUtv LTT'- ''■''''' ^^"^« ^^ ^^'^ "^ ending at the hundredth mile. ^ *^ '"''''" beginning at the twentieth and coul^ligS;dtifsrxr^:^5-;r:;^^'^l;--- — -orders-in. . A. No, I had nothing to do wltli Ihat J J . "^''"^ ''^' '^'^ ^"^^i'lies ? Himply a contractor and had nothing to do withT/ '" ■''''''^ "*' *''« ^"'"Panv. I was Q. Apart from the «6,200 in cash a ^ I k """:'^'^*'«"- was there any other conside'tio i 1 d^' in ^uVc'T'^ "^'^ "'^'^^ ^'^ '-- «Poken acquirmg a. hare in the franchises of the clpany'v°" '"""•'^°' "''»' reference to your halfonhr^^rstrrfrcX::^^^^^^- -^'^^ -- I-entitledtorecei.one. o .he-amount of work do„e bv mo. In 4tr to p M J';"'°'''""'''^'*^« f^^-^the Company tt tor,' '•" Tr ^^''^« '-^'■"''^ i>een ;;« ai :ri ;^v H ""^'" ^"' ^^' *'" «^^''--' the total cost ol «20,000 in accordance with my con a. f" ^ T '"^" ^'^^"'''^ ^" ^^""S out irom time to time of the amount of work dorandCo?;h': •""-"'^'" "^'^« ^'^'^ ™e Q. Wi tun what time w,«, your contract to be comnlet«d v"°'' '''^'^ '" '''^' ^«"'"<*»e. A. Well. I cannot remember. I think three yea"? tdj , he •• , ^ ^ 1 nad in the original contract. 24 C N. Armstrong The contract speaks Q. Tlie Company was to take possession on the Ut July, 1888? A. If I was allowed to refer to the contract, I could fix the date, for itself. Q. It would be more convenient to have this fixed by you in your evidence. What action did you take upon the execution of this contract, Mr. Armstrong ? A. I gave a sub-contract first of all to a firm by the name of MacDonald , O'Brien & Co* for the construction of the greater part of the work on the firet twenty miles. The work was commenced almost immediately. Q. You refer to the first twenty miles. Is it not a fact that at this time there were contracts in existence with the Doniinion Goverment with reference to these twenty miles ? A. The contract existetl between the Dominion Goverment and the Company, the ordinnry subsidy contract. The Dominion Goverment had previously asked for tenders for the construction of that twenty miles, but the tenders received were so much larger than the amount appropriated for the purpose that they did not enter into tlie contract at all. They then made an arrangement with the Baie des Ohaleurs Railway Company for the construction of that H 8 part of their line, and the amount of *300,(X)0 voted bv the Government for the construction of that twenty miles was transfened to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company in consideration of their building it. The «300,000 voted for the construction of that 20 miles was transferred to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com pany and formed part of the subsidy to be received by them. I afterwards gave a sub-contsact to the firm of MacGregor, Kennedy & Co., for the subsequent 10 miles— miles 20 to3l;;it;e following sec-tion. 3(1 to 40, 1 constructed myself, giving small sub-contracts to parties ; from the 40th to 60th mile I gave the sub-contract of to H. MacFarlane ; 60 to 7( • I was doing myself when the work stopped, there being nothing done beyond that, excepting surveys. "> Q How long did the work by these sub-contractoi-s and by yourself continue ? A. It continued for about three years or a little over. Q. Well, did your connection as principal contractor of the railway company continue? A. Yes, it continued till last April, when I transferred all my rights to the new Company ; I gave a discharge to the Company, and Crtncelled the contract. Q; At what date did Henry Macfarlane intervene ? A. In 1888. ..With reference to the first 60 miles of the railway there was some work remaining to be done on tlio first 40 miles, which by his contract he was to complete, and he was also to build twenty miies of new work from miles 40 t(t 60. Q. You state that by his contract it was incumbent upon him to do further work on the first 40 miles ? A. He was to complete the first 40 miles. Q. You state he waa sub-contractor for you ? from the 40th to the 60th mile ?' A. He was sub-contractor for me from the 40th to the 60th mile : that was 20' miles of new work ; but in addition to that he was to complete what whs not finished oa; the first 40 miles. Q. When you speak of iiaving given out a sub-contract for the section ftom the 40th to the 60th mile, do you refer to the contract passed between you and him on libje^ 8th June 1888 ? ^' iV; Armstrong What A. Ves, that is the only contract. Q- I understood you to mean that ,«!, «ave this to hi.n a. a' ub-comracV '''"' ^■""- °"" ™"*««^ -'*« executed, you forthwith A. Yss, Sir. Q- It was not parsed before a notary ' A. No. ^ ' q. Have you a copy of that contract ? papet ^■oZ^C;:ZtTr^^^^^^^ - Ottawa. I expected that all these Q. Where can the original be found ? des cJ>apt^:;"Si;':;i;;;;j •" «" -'-" between Macfarlane and the Baie Q.VVa,,t not signed in duplicate or triplicate? A. Ihat was signed in triplicate * 0, .„,. oopj .,,.. j,„ „,,„,„ ,^ _^^,^ ^ ^^^^ _^ ^ Q.Vo..„,,„e„.,e ,„,,„,.,» a OOP, oruLcn.!.:, '^^ 1 es, bir, I Hm prepared to do so. Q. You may state, Mr. Armstrong, for the in,m. r . • the general purport of this contract ? '"^'"ediato information of the Commission A. He was to constriipt tho on ,„;i the Company and of £:^:^^:rCT'''''' ''"'''' '"« '-™« «*' -v -ntract with eatislact.on of the Government engin^erVr^i he T''?-' ""'^ "'^ «overnm'ent to the ft tl.esamen.annertothe satisfaction of 'he Cov ^^ "''° '"^ '^°'»P'ete the first 4(. miLn was a detailed schedule of prices thatt s^rbTSor'^";"!" ^" ''''' '' ""'""- Q. Relating to what ? ^ "' '"^^'' elass of work. A. Relating to tlio twentv milo *i for the materials purchased by him and' of l^ l.!^ '^.f j^"'-^^ ' think of .V;6 added '7; , ^ . ** P°" **'^ '•'^'"'' expended in doing the y- And mterest? we,e,r«„.,er,.ed.oth„o,,l,m„B»";kT„MlrlV'°''^ Oove,„„„„to payable i„ ca,l, that i 26 C. .V. Armstrong mi)«?\) o ,'"'°'° nec. ssary to replace MacDonald and O'Brien aa to the first 20 t^n mif K T' ^'""''^^' "" *° ^'^'^ *^''"'^ *^" ™"^«' ^"d yourself a« to the fourth ten miles by this general contract, covering the whole of the forty miles ? thenf wf ^"^''"n'''.' ^'^u''" ^ ^°- *^'^ "°' *""'^ '=°'"P''-'*^ ^^^" ^^"'k' ^nd the contract with o Marrrpr',1."' T^ "! '^' ^"^^^ '****"' ^"'^ "' *^« '"^^'^time a contract was given comnlP^HTn ^^'f ' '"'^ "'""' ^""'^ ^^'^ J"«' ^^°"» c.,mpleted-in fact, that waa nT.^ t /"^^ comp eted. On the fourth 10 mile« that i was working oa my.df, it was b^t to .n1,'* ''^''™'/"'' '"""'''' ^'"'^ ^^''''' "" ^'^-i^^ ^'- wik, it was though thTr ,nn r? *°,^ ^""*' ^^' ^'■- MacFarlane ; to allow him to complete it, so aa ine running of trains would not be interfered with. f5n«n^ioT°" ^•" '*''*^' ^'- ^^'^'"''^fong' ^^'hat. at the date of this contract, was your own tinancial position as regards the company ? , i^ ^ T m„H" Z^^^' ' l'""^ r ^°''*'°" 'ega.diug them at all. I had nothing to do with them before 1 made this contract. aoP^?nt'^^*^^ time this MacFarlane contract whs entered into what was the state of your account ; had you been paid up, or were you their creditor? Pnm;^" -^V!!"^ T * \^'^^ ^"""""^ ^"^ '"^' ^"^ ^here has been all the time since I coZcr ' ' -^ ^'^'•«« P'^'--"'"g« -^ 'o be kept back till the completion ol the Q. Can you ntate the amount ? A. Not fiom memory. I could produce a memorandum later on. with Ma^jp" Une.Tn iZl " '"' """'"' '"' ^'^ "* *'' ''"^ '^^ ^"*^""^ '"'° *^^ '^""^^^^ A. Yes. Q. It might be well, Mr. Armstrong, to produce and have in your possession here for reterence, in case of necessity, all your accounts showing the charges and oavments in connec ion with this work. Is it possible for you to state Ln memory the ap^a e amount ot the liability of the Comf.any towards you at that date ? ^PP^oximate A. I would not like to state it from memory. Q. What followed the e.xeciition of the contract with MacFarlane ? A. MacFarlane went on with the work in 1888. By his contract he should have completed by the Ist January. I tiunk, the 1st January 1889. He did not do so but stopped work and resume work iu the spring of 188U, and went on very slowly with it u tifhis that t!me. '"''" ''''"" ""^ '*^" " ''''"'" """""* "'^^"''^ '"' ^« clone by him aj Q. I imairine that the company concurred in your giving of this contract ? A. They became a party to the contract and guaranteed the payment to Macfarlane of whatever sum would be due by me. f j ^ .niaut. m Q. You will state generally what difficulties, if any, arose after this date with respect to the progress of the work and with respect to your relations as regards Mr. Macfarlane or with respect to your relations as regards the Company ? lacianane C. N. Armstrona- fr«l.« occ„„e,l, which d™.ged „nd rr''"°'' """ '" "" -">• P«° = oS,e ""S '" Q- The spring of what year? A. The spring of 188Q TVi Si'-lt,' •"■ ","1: "-»' '""-"^^''^"oud^^^','^ ^». »■ "■■". «..t wor. „,„e„ Q- You refer to the spring of 1889 ? money at all events to let hin.p:;thle,l^^^^^ upon them to advance him en. Ih • Q- To what amount do you reler as having been at the d," , • A. It WHS a matter of about $28 0,K) "^ °'''^ ^°''^' Government ? Q. To whom do you state the Lclcal 'Government paid this ^ A. lheypa,d,t to the workmen along the line Q. Was that the sum of money nntnth i • • Q. What followed the payment of this money. Diiif. 7, . A. No, the work wa« not continued There ' ^ ' ^"''' *" '« '^^"^'""^^ ? Q. To whom did he assign ? A. To KiddoU and Watson, accountants, of Montreal Q.Atwhatdate.ifata.l,didworkontherailwHystop? liLl ; 28 C. N. Armstrong A. I don't think there was any woik done after September unless perhaps some little trifle of work.- September. 1889. Q. Certainly not by you ? A. AVell, I think I did some work as lute as October 1889 on the miles 60 to 70. In fact, there was some work done even later than that. There was work done there in the wintet by me, quarrying, getting out stone. That probably went into January or February or perhaps March 1890; but that was simply working in tne quarries. Q. Was the road or any part of it at any of these dt.tes so far completed as to be of public service ? A. Certainly, the 60 miles were almost entirely completed, and were in first class run- ning order. The sub-contractor, MacFarlane, ran regular trains there during, I think, two or three months for the accommo •nd . h.vrkt'p,.^"' ''"'""™' "» '"•1' '■> ""Plic...: .h, C„„p.„, „., ^.,., . „„p^ A S!" .t" T.,""" *» A. Yes part of it. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— - Q. Can you file this document. A. No: Iwillallow-a-copy tobetakenofif t a copy also. ^^ *^'^^" "^ '*' I '"ay state that Mr. J. C. Langelier has A copy is produced and filed as Exhibit Wo. 3. wfefeaugaaaaa::iaj»:;:'i-:'5-'}^,; 'ery much lesa wurdu returned ty have a copy i they kept a es? idition that it le document. ment to the >ut the word )8,943,62, as e Company, .. Kobitaille nature ? 8 a correct,^ rdance with It to retain it was not ites, was a ^elier has the subsidy du. ;ou ? '''" ^"™ °^" ^'^''^^ - forty thousand doliaz. iu c • ^ A. I give credit there for the full connection with of the subsidy payable b3rePedemlf°""*"'"^^«"^«"'^^ K . . remaining undone. ^^'"^ C,ovemment is not paid yet thpv ? ? ' ^"* ^'^^'^ Q- Which you hope to reodve * ' ' " '' '^^ ^«'^ iasHSHsr— :■"■■'■--•• ■Hott. Mr. JuttiK Jem :- Q. But this amount of ^1,000 is added ther. 9' A. I have given crpHit tv,. *i . ""^eu mere ? A.- ?: z ::te'r:::,;n * "- ""■■ -^ ^- --e ^ A. Yes, Sir, and had been dup fnr Aft Q. Within that interval Mr / f '"°°*'''' ^^^°^« ^^e settlement w«. n, . m A WpII t y,o,i • , ® *-ompa.iy ? "" ""^ '^^s earnest ^hen the Company appi^LLeir''"*/'" ^^^^^'^n^atiofo^thlf * ^ r''^' ^"' ^'^^^^ i °li 84 C. N. Armstrong zZu .?.:.r •■'"""^ ' '"' — ' »'•--" «w"i,irrj;^;^£- Hon. Mr. Justue Jettt ;— Q. Tliat w«8 in August 1890 ' ;• 7'"' ""'''"' ^"" ""■« agreement made v A. I gave a letter to Mr. Rionpl n,„ vr Q- Have you a copy of it ? ^ ^''^'"^ ''^'•'^''*°^- »° ^^at effect. A. I think I have. Q. You might produce it ? A. I will take a note of it and produce it afterwards H- VVaa there a reply ? A. The reply was onh verhn? t* and I left it open to thpm^ r ^'^ °°' ^ positive agreempnt • a Hon. Mr Justice. Jetti :-. Q. And this proposition was made tn ih. r^ . A- I forget, I think probab IvTw '° ^ ^°™^""^' *° '«"^*'» open for a few davs . s to be able to en I agreed to somo #25,000 tie balance of ^ to pay these C- N. Armstrong t'September, * proposal, ^ecl. lani Lv. 'pared to ays? 'as men- d be in ptance ? vards, I on the as not Hon. Mr Justice Datidson .— p.r.to<,„„: "■''■"'"■"'-'"■'■«»"«i.wouMh..„i,o.„- . Q- Tl.en if I „„de«ta„,l v ., ■ '."Pminei,. „„ „ ■-fSznr,::=;:..-......-..,,,. .d"::,:" "■■ -1- Aone whatever. ^"® '*"y interest in Q- At no time ? A-- At no time I told tb Q. Between August An.l i completed one wav or , ««"i«'««ll'.v.heO„,.,i„Ba„k. "™ "> ".e p.v„e« „,. ,^., A. Well Mr nr °* ''^^ interview' «-Yoa». Afr. Juiliee DaMm„ .— place* Jween''A'":l*'°''j "? '° "«' <'"«• l«»Me we .„ „f •' 36 c. jv; Armstrong Q. What occurred with resDeof to t>,n=„ • . A. Well, after ineeting Mr Ailnl?."'^°! '"''""« "^ ^'^""^'•3'. 1891 ? final ^eetingan-anged,a„l it :.s?nS:d ^h '^^•^'""- --ral tinges, therewasa would be about the end of Januar^ T.t If LT"^,^ 'Z' '' ""' ^'°-'^- ' ^^-^k thaj expfcte„ do „Uh il„ „,„»„, .„d ."Str. mJ """'' *"" ■"■' "» ™""0 ".ve nothing Q. Your remembrance in thof ti, ... .»,««to...o,dco„,p.n., J'^Lpo^;S'S,^T;" ""^ """>«""' o«'«e'= «"■■»'« H«MSie;Lr.^st"2£:::;rer.,rt',?errs '^» -^ -- - - A. Yes, Sir. 'lamiuies to the shareholders going out ? M«2;,;tS:^^,Zlrdt;i--'l ,;;;o.n..„.l.u„™ - ^"„,e„ .he Co.p„, .„d A. Yes, Sir. Q. Completely? "^ *N:rsl"'°"''°"°'"""=''""°"^»''"''°'"'««o,e,o™e„.. -a .e. w„:;7„'„Td"d'r """"""^ """"' "° "°">i"^. ■ "-eU .»o„ld .l»h,„d „.,.e.f * B..t .he., did „„. «„ he,o„d p,e„„;:r;: :;:;::;:'""'' ^"'■"»' ""'""-'-"^ A. Woll, the condition of iUf.iiix hi) ,•„ n ™..or.h,.e,i.,..„eo,a«>,,„„,,^',V:,\':,:r:™^-,;r,j/-^^^^^^ - 88 (^- ^. Annstrotii -'i- No, Sir All 1 1- wpon.ibi. people c 1^7. ^MMuting the CompaL a „1 ,1, *^ "" """ ••'««'»1. «■ I "■«»«„t people. '"' '"•■=««"«•>■ 1 .1.0 knew i, IrLZh^'^'" '^ T"' "" '!» A. Well, there lia'l ho condition r ^ "' *^ -^ '^^^e when the,e straine . relations began „r ' . A. I think they began som r ■ '^^*^"' "■• '^-"'"e^« a seriou, Q- From What eaur;'"^'"^^''- A. I think the tirst offi i ? . A- r 'w,« satisfied then fh * '' settlement. p'- -. »„, . ..„„„:.:f-.s;^-.. P»p,e co.. ,. .„. . ,,e ,.0. „, „, ..,,^ I C N. Armstrong >r the puipose >« completed, te was passed (■ any railway d financially was largely an? government tisfied, as I 3. providing guarantees face of the legislature ' was the trfl it from B Govern- nnection dir.'ctcJ ifidence serious 'hiirles fes on i been ig the eight nent, uter- Q- Had you any particular persons in view at t^TTT A. I had one person in vi^w tv,af r ^ '""^ ? -1 He JS.^'™"^ "'"-•"^ "—« w,,, .,e „i,w., , Q, Whoiehe? A. James Cooper, of Montreal, y- You might describe him i> A. He wae a creditor for a smou „ A. Yes, Sir. ^ secretary of the railway ? Q. Is he still in the employ of M. Cooper ? ^i- \v nat date waa this ? Q. Can yoinix the date precisely? •«• 1 thmk It was the sixth T tw \ • Q. What statement did you ,nake"to\ir "" '"' ''''' '"^^ «-«-> Elections. A. 1 stated in a ffenpral wmr fi,-,. .i -■v*i 40 C JV. Armstron ^- No, Sir. ?"°''™"'»"» be provided for? ^°n. Mr. Justice JetU:^ ^o«. .V^. j„,<,.,e Davidson .- ™::;tat.s.r/-- -- »' •-« ^- .h.. ,» _,,^ Mjotiatig^wXr:'''' "" "• ™ «™'e of it in th. n ■ Tj. ., «'um at the time I ■Hon. Mr. Justice Jett6 .•- »« t ^ZZ r""*- •™"-»' '<■ «.e C.„.pa„, aa aoon a. ,o„ ... .,, A v^ 1 "■'"u saw this new subsWv -lur. MacDonald refused ^"w. 3ir. Justice Davidson :~ Per«oVadtmr;e'^,To„:r ^°".^"'*« ^«'-»'-d to pre. for th , A. I mentionSl.srooo^fT^"'^'^''^'^ "-"««"-' <"^^ P«>'"'ent to your own A- Yes, Sir. Q- What followed this n;^ «„ .u- A- I h«i .over.! i„..„ J," '"'■"■'"« '«"■<»• "«ur a. .h,. i«,„i„. , *'""""*'™""'<'«»^""ngtah,r occur, C. N. Armstrong w shareholders. Gs which would cliitliey would "* the amount rsv. •usand dollars?' *ware of that ed to. accept asnot th^re.. ^ to accept "hen I was '^ the time the time I w subsidy arried out 'h of that, 'd refused ■our own aount of Q- I understand vou to sav tlm t\. -aving the payment of 1180,000 to yo^ anl Im^l^T'''''''' "° "^P«"«« -"^^ referred to as the oM shareholders nxight demand ? '"'' '"'^ '""«"* '''"'"'"^ ^nd such amounts payment of any sum ? " ^° ^"^' -"^»-*^' expense which would accompany the A. No, sir, none whatever ' durng the next tour or five days in connecMrnwftnhLT ■ ^^ ^ ^''''' '"'^"^ '"'e'views y. Had you prev bus to this datn k„ • "'^ business. A No'th'T" '° """' "«"«««»««? Q- Wl,™„ertdi,ljoii»eehim' A. I 8a\v him aevtral times alUr H.of 7 SJ- 'Vas his answer satisfactorv ? A. Yes. ' Q. Did he sympathize with the project? A. res, at once. 42 C N. Armstrom i I Q. Wlio ? "*' associated Cooper and Mr tk^ i *^'in"«y, Ew n£roff a^n^l"^^"'^*-^ -re tot, r^Th"'' ^^ ^'^^ ^e.rs he thought the Government I ?i'^'""' ^'^ ««« «onie thhJdoZ ^T'"^ ''^''^ ^"'n I was f od syndicate toget^zeT^WsTed t'"'"^^ ^1 am.C' ' '^t!^^^ ^""^ ^^heth^r responsible people wouW.rrf,'"^'°^"'l"i'-e about thiTHr?'^"^'"^'« 'f I got ^ the Governmenl woT,W be favo ,^ '?■ ''" ^'^''* ^«- "ecessa'y to hZV'" '"""^'^^ "'^t if^;; A I r,t' ""^ '""^- ""^* ^ . '°"^'^* ''' ^'^ the best ^- M- «t ol-thL'T""" '^^'^"-"tance of the members of the Go Q. In ivhnt n ® Groverneinent ? ^- Yes Sir. V- Did it onpiir f« . . G- N. Armslr He associated wes, brewer, of Montreal ; Mr. terwards elected ? to do with the ^ of Directors. ter ? t with the new carried on the e approval or e with Mes8r8 'd him I was iiim whether '6 if I got a It that if any ' the statu J e» n acting a« was the best 4B The .■«i„gw„.Hjo„,„e., „„«,,„.„ """»">' ■'«l'™«r.v of , hi. „.,. The.i«i„gw„.Hj„„,„e.l„„.i,2„.„,„„kp„ ^°^- ^r. Justice Davidson : . Q- Mr. Armstrong.before fhA n^; Govern.;;;. Tor.LeT'^ '"'^^ ^'^^^ ^o- r^rrr^r """"^^^ ^'•- ^^"^ refer. ""'^ '""" ^^^ *« s'ate the exact natnre o7tC n ^«^.""^t'""« ^.th the . A. I wished Mr. P..„.. . . . "" "^^''^"^^'""^ *" -^ich you A. I wished Mr. Pacaud to f . — aMons to which you 44 C. N. Armstrong versions oflt. ' '""' '"°" ^^^''^ -^at that arrangement wa« I h . Q- How could von dpf • ^ ^^^^^ heard different ^ v>natdidyoul,eIieveittohe' • -^ understood it was $75,00C Q- Which were to be paid' A. By MucDonald and Cameron Q- For what reason or purpose? ' A- *^or carrying on the work fnr *v, * ^™„ „,„„ ,i, .,.. Won,:, ^rd"^ " "■='■' '«»' ^"-"y. Q-;.7 ''«'«' f'°™ Mr. c,m„o„. A- It w.,8 at the same tin 1, V^' ^--'angements were off ■? A V.«i • ■"■ "»«»'iMioi.8 Were ^::.'M^"J^E'£r'H^-»"^^^^^^^^ ""'»k' ^"•" •^«' »"■ Coop. C* N. Armstrong money to be paid ies ? tified. le Company on the ansaction ? ad with them ? e heard different pose? ount was varied u Pacaud ? to act for me sould not do ' was off. I ' MacDonald iatioiia were Mr. Cooper 1 a decision the 6th or Q- Where do you see hi.n ' A. I think I wrote him then. «• Have you a copy of your letter? ^- ->o, Sir. Q- Keep any cony "> A. No. Q. From where did you wrifP v A. That he had not any answer. W- Was that uj writing' Q. What then? -"' Q." wtt'drr^ "" ^" ^"*^"'- I had with him in Montreal. A. About the 12th of March. y. At whose request? Q. Doe this correspondence explain itself' ™'* '"™ *h^'«- Q- Were you present at the interview^ "^''^ ''"* '^^ ^«'k. '^^ A. At the Windsor Hotel. Q. Where wore the ministers stopping? A. That I don't know. 46 ^- N. Armstrom Q- ^^'m there anvth' • — A. Tlie DeJaware an,) w.. i and se'vP'T' u '"''^^ ""'»"- of people Th "'"^ 'or New-York. Q st : r" ^""^ '« ^^^«- "-k '"'^ ^^'"^ *^^- ^-cier and hia pa,,v • W- State wh, ,in ' ''• '^ P*' '^ going to Eurone . A. I didn't see them all ti, ■ • ''"• The nnn,ster. .ere in a private car tha. • r Q' «>-ve their names. ' "' ''' ' '^'"'^ ™o«t of tne A. I think the Premier -Mr «i . Q. Was Pacaud ' Q. Piceeed ? "^'^ '* '^as Worth while A. I only saw Mr. Pacand f^ on my arrival m Montreal ' ^"'"^"'°'^ Hotel in New^ 'J '^"' '° *^^ '^"'l get la Q- Did you keep a copy of it , ''"' °^ *'^« '«'egra« A. I have got the original Tf ■A.- " Hon. George Irvino n., i, •nawer about Baie L chT' ^"^^•'*'- ^"'«a«e wire me „, ,u „ Q- Who wrote out this telegram ? ' "'*' °° *^' ^^'^ "^ 'he putting of thia ning for New- York, 'y going to Europe think mo8t of tne an'lIthinkMr number of other oposition made *■ a proposition ed to ascertain w worth while t- John's, just > the Govern- 'arry out the ' get nothing egi-am at St' MacDonald. ' and get an >e telegram "•k, Mac's >t I would lie 13th of A. I .hough, he w„ i,„.„.t»„ ,. . ""°"""' «'""« '"« •■ A. On>, ,h.. , „„,„,, „„,. ; I"'"'"" °' '"•"" '■«'«■-» ,0,, .„d ,i„„ Q- Go on. You leff nff ,. . i . iie would not A. He told -^'"^ ''^ci'al what answer he 'got"" to' tm-r?/"" '^"^ ^^^egram he would lot ,«„ i, telegram. ^ ""^ '^'^^^am, and I think two 1 ll"' ^°^ ^'•°'" ^^^ew York Q- ^ow you have stated fuUv all .. . '" '""""'^ ' ''' * Hotel, have you ? '""'" «" ''^^^ ^o^k place between you and hi A. Yes, Sir. , '"' "' '^' Windsor Q- All that was important ? Monday or Tuesday fX^I th ',?^.'^'^' "^^^^^ *hree days after t/ '"'^'•«'» ^^^i"? ^-^ on the Tuesday' follo:;;|- ^'^ '^'^ «^^ ^-^h I think wt on a Prlr ".''r" °" *^' Q- Have you the telegram ? '' ""' ' *''"' '* A. No, sir, I didn't keep any of tha«o f i Q- Whatrequest did it make" "''""^ '' ^"• A- I think if,ked me to come on with one Oft. .• one Of the syndicate to New-York. I replied 48 C. N. Armslrom at once I woul.i come on with M,- r„_ . """''''===========._ Q. Whati„„tp|,„^,, "«.'«'> I J»meclmih, A. Mr. Thorn Mill „„ (, [^ ,, r I guarantees they 3 ^fve He" -/h '"" '^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^ 'l uT thTtf 1*^, "" '^^ °^ guarantees perlectlvlatll:. '*'' «'"rt he was J -ardly prepared to - I ^^^ '""» ^^at Q- That'did^^tXt^t "'■'?", ""^ «°^'«'-n'"en;. ' "'"''"' '" «^^'' '>'^' -ould make the A- ^V, they eomn et d°.T "' ''' ^«'-«"-'io" ? ''TS:^'''-^^^^^''''''"'' When I ... ,„,, ,,^^^^^ ^SSS??^"-'^-^^'^^^^^^ :i:tr^^^^ ^^« 'indicate would three weeks befor^ hrcouldT'?'^-^' "''^'-'"^ it br^notT'''*"' """^^ -'"™ to •hould remain unTilthevl/ ^^ '° '^^ ^^tter, and it wa^d "; ^ "^'^ ^ave to wait arrangements and tidv"T- ^'^r^""^'"^"*'- ^^ the meZme' 'u''^' ''« '"'^"^r Q- Was Mr. PacLrn. ! *^' ""''^ *^^™- '"^'^''time would complete their ^^^ A. Hewaspfrn^^ r:rei:ir^---^ tance away. '"^ *t the begmn.ng of the interview but h Q-Atwhathoteldidyou«ay. -' »>- ^e was 3ome di. n ■ «ru^ ^'■""swick hotel. 2 ^^° ^'■'■»"«^<^» >■"» of mflnence .h„„ ,i„e. A. inHuence with the p^,. ™ent. * " '"® Gfovernment. I knew h;^ . . ,.^--.ou expect him to s ^^ " ^" ^^^^ ^-^e Oovern- interest ? ^"« to secure a contract that would be ^- I did not consider that it w. • ''"'''' '°' '^« P"l'"c ^ "'ny did you consider thaf if Q- But your claim wa. a legitimate , "^' '' ''^^ ^^'«- AYesSir.itwasaperfectfv / "'' QAndthepropo3itio;r^^;;^'^^^eone. A. Yes, Sir. "^^ ^> ^^.s syndicate was .„ the interest of th u Q- And you deserved to h P"^''« ? you to promise to pay Co^ ^j^^-;, ™oney. .>,„, ,,^^ A. My elaim was payable m , o "' ""''''' e..isting /"" '"" ™« ^^at moved do what I did. ^"'^^^ *hese circumstances I though u"' '''" '^'' ""' -«ireT Q- I>o you believe whe.T, • ''"' '''''^«^'">- ^r me to accepted unless you nli n 'r'^*^"^- '^'^ Wrongly thaf H J ou paid that 1100,000 ' ^^ ' """' "^««e Proposals would nof y. . ""'u not have been • i A. Yes, sir. ^ ^'^ ^^"^ "^ '^S^''^^ ">« P»biic ? Q- Proper? A. Yes Sir. Q. B« .t ,h„ „,„„„„, j.„„ t^ ^,^_^^,^_,>;^ ^^^^.^^^^ .=»ef4':,r -2:- '"-^^^^^ Q. Where did this conveisation take place ^ A. The first one at the? St. Louis Hotel. Q. I am speaking about New- York Q. Was It a private conversation ? A. A private conversation Q. To no person ? A. To no person . A. No, Sir, he wa^ not "^ ™'"" "^"'^^ "^^^'^ of it ? Q. Or any of the directors? A. No, Sir. "o^^'^.'XZXZl^"-^"'''- '« - «™ one .., „ .,. „,,,, , ^^ tii Ik* that arrangement ^ N. Armstronsr nythingatalL I what statement It ipade to you ? ler he would act 3nt to agree to had to perform. There was no at to .k place ou and Mr ler. I had p,«e?; ' ^™ ^° -'^--^ then ^^^^^^^Zl^^^Z^^ ^- I ^Mn't thfnk it would b '—t.on should take • Q. WJ,y ? "'""" ''^^"'"^ Public. I certainly objected to n. .- • A-Beca„«elth,.ughtth . ^^'^^ '« -k,„g u public. <'onfidence in the mnttS ' '"""<'''°» ^^ ^ confidential one and I h. , k J That was your only reason ^ "' '^^" ^^^'^'^'^ - A. That WHS my only reason. ' f V ^"^ '^''^ J'«"r only reason 9 ^ A. That same day. Q- ^^'ere vou alone ' D" 1 A. iNo, sir. "^ ^ '^ the proposed Q. in .e ... «„. ,., ,„„ _ „^ ^^^^^^ ^ M C. N. Armsirong A. Th« would be «b,.,„ the „,<,rt|, „,■ ^ ^1 A. lJu^tsawit^nl,islOum. Q. Had it in your possession » A. No, «ir, I had not. Q. Never? type-wntten document. "^ ^^^ '^"'^'^ '^"^ P"' i" tlmt lorm, in the form of 1 Q. What happened ' . A:^:::r::;::::Tr^'--7--nsett,ed A. On,v to advise Mr Th ^ I w^f "r " *^'"''^^™ '^^^« ' company and Mr. Thorn wa« not." ""^ ''^'"""^^ ^"" «" *'- detail, connected with the Q- Were you to have an interest in the new syndicate f we ne;er ^^^^^S.^ ^ S. ;^^I f''^^'^ ^ ^^"-^ -ices afterwards hut kind in the Cmpany now. ''°"' "' ' '"^^« »» ^^'^'-h or interest or posSro, 'a^ly Q. Did this agreement include a complete discharge ? ^- iV; Armstrong 3 you done so ? )ooks wero locked ent from Quebec me he had some a.°n'i"8 «horll, Q. D«.^y™ «.e .„, p.„ i„ .,„„ „^^.„,,,,^^^^^ Q- No part ? A. No part. '' A. I did *^' P*^''"'^ °f 'hat Order in Council ? Q- The sole and only nnrn,«. r '"''^'"^ °^ his Q- That was all arranged ? 'ransfernng my rights A. Yes, fn,t it could not be concluded 54 ^- N- Artnst, rang Q- Were you presenf ,,* *i, • ^' ' ^- J waa presenT „? ^'''® '"terviews ? which ;. , nJvl T '''^^™' interviews r h.A ^ - never changed. ^^' ^ ^latJ -w option for 4^ ^ Q- ^>''s the result of these n» .• • ^^'^ ^* " «^ed price A. Which ? ''"' "«^otmt,ons reduced to writing ? ^ J- W^«".^eitingp.r ! '"""'^^^''•'-^ >'°"r-terference in these negotia- «oth.g^hatever to^otwth ir^""^"'"" with the passi,, of the Order i„ c ■ J ^'^ ^°» «ee Mr. Pacaud ? " ^°""°'^ ^■YesS,r,iUunkever.vday. ^•Confer With hi„n-„ respect to it. ■'*^' les Sir Ttr>Mi,- Q- Anything fSj;.'," "'''^ ' '^"^^ -- ^oi,,g on. ^-e that contract.' ""'"'' ^'^ ^^'^•^ "- thing ^^ co.^Z.^^^^.Y''''''- ^"« ^^"^«i^ „ Q-A« I understand it neith ^- ' '"^ ^"'^ ^ '^«« anxious not Jo facaud and the Govern^" '' ""^^'^ "^ '"^-ectly did you i„t r ^- ^^o Sir. in no matter at all ''"''" "« ^«^*«en Mr. Q. Did voM moj I had I Was at ali. Q - —^vLcr ac a/I. et tha rights of the iate did control the at a fixed price paid when they *• I don't know n these negotia- Council I had O. JV. Armstrong time. I was The 45 days Jxious not to between Mr. »n with that •erformanv »tter ? He was I between 'e 17th of 55- A. Very h'ttle bec.u.e there was n^n^r^do^IJII^^ Q. When did they return ^ """*"' "^" "^'^ Q. Who were the ministers ' A. Present here? Q. Yes. A. There was the Hnn w- r^ Q- Who was acting P^emier?""''^"' ""'■ ^^««' *^^- ^-^elier, and Mr. Duhame. A. Mr. Garneau, I believe. Q. And holding what other office? Q:o':::xXtre?t^s^-'^-"^^-"^^vori«. A. i-es sir Mr Rob d "''' ^'°"^^ ^"'"^ ""der ? A TtMrMrf'"'"''*^'"'' absent? A. i tnnik the Promio.. »i r. W- With respect to this matter' ^J- At the Department ? y. D'd you accompany him who., A. Probably a telegram. Q. Have yon the telegram ' Q. Anytl.mg further ? "^^ 66- C- IV. Armstrong J f"*" '^■^at reason » • ' A. On the sixtv m;i» i "™P^<^*e possession ? A. A. „„ „„„, J h j,::r.t™ j;ir.f '• «■>-' >.ow. ■"'■,'-"«*'■• office. Q- Alone ? *p&„yr' ■-*■-• wi.hM,.Th„„. Q. Did he give it? «««"-%' the money? Q-" I'^^t^JatJig S It'^^' • ° ^'^' '^^ ''^"ers of credit . Q- Up to that time PaoanT^-^ ' ""^ "^^' °'"™^»t the Order 'lie reeeiK The ' . . '"™''"" »■»" m.- h« C. N. Armstrong —the payment. T I asked him if he 'ty on aocount of id. lier that he would a. e had possession ■ter was getting 3nje or twice. It the Order •'ou ask his have asked ^ not know lat did you ?elier haa 67 The receipt is on the statement. This is how it reads : " Keceived of Mr J C Lan.^H n " '^™'' ^^'" ^^'^' ^^'^■ in full settlement of this accounr '' ^^"'^ ^'"^'""•"^ '^^^^'^^^'•. the sum of «175,000.00 TJ,., .. (Signed), " C. N. ARMSTRONG " Q. Where is the transfer ' A. ^ has been referred to a little while aso. y- Where is the transfer » Q: SeZliT *° ''^- ^«"^«''- - Commissioner. ?: 7thlk r/''^^''" ^°" «'^» *»^'« ^i«charge . Whn V T,"'"''*' '" *^« afternoon. ^ H- What steps did you take then ' A. I waite-' then. a: orhT^eZafSitTh?-;'^'^"*'''^''^'-'^ ««-> ^-^h ? ■money. P'™ '^^^ U would not he considered official until he paid the Q. Gm you state the time at which it whs signed ^ A >o, I could not possibly but I fhinn; , . Q- Up to this time had Mr plcaJd sb 7''' '^'"'^ ^" '^^ afternoon. ^P-'I ,, , . "^"^ ^''^^"^ '^"^ -P^*--e ^bout the money not being O ■ Whn. "' ''T*''' * ^"""^ 'J^*' o*" impatience A He t ir )" ''"'' °'^''^ impatience? Q." Whe.: di:rh\'t^e,l tXT '° ^^^' ^•"' ^- --- ^o get the matter finished. q: ^y- r liri^hS^'^^^^ ''■'''' "^ "'-- - «-'^ paid. ■thin^-^cTi; r ;LS^ S:l:? :::;;;;; --y^^^^^- ^ ^-e not kept a diary of these in^patn:'/'^'"'^ ^ ^- ^ ^ ^^ before signing the discharge Mr. Pacaud showed some I ^a^"-r:;;;:;^r^- -e ^^^- -^ '^e s^d .< x .. .., ,,,„, , ,^^^ ^_ y. Were youmade aware of Avhat th„.^ A. Xo, I WHS not Ho sh ? Piynents were ? some where in the neighborhorj of 'iroroS XT""'"" ^' ^^"> ''"^ ' ^^ink he stated Objected to by Hon. Mr. Irvine.' Q. At what time was this discharge signed J :{ 58 ^- N'. Armstrong Q.'^l''°"'''"''»'«'e exactly Q- The president and n,a„ager ^ ' '' «overnn.ent A. Yes Sir. * " Q- Who are they 9 ft Who notified yo„ ih„ ,1 wrifK^u ^"■•■^""gelierand Vfr r„i OW r, '""^'■^"^'y however rT; '^'"'^' ^'■- Thorn wasrh/''^ '^^^ a'«o * xt ^rr; r « "« ■- ' "°' -^ '">• -«"-"- r - « - '7-:ttr£r-=^s^: -—eon..., A. I don't know. Q- When you re^, j.^d the b k A- Tl'e loi.1 ,„„„„, ' ""d handed to „e. "'"»''" "■M»75,000.00 n. '"■"°"'"»-* in J„„ ,„„.„„ -4 C. N. Armstrong ' some delay at "'e got away. '"'ithm,, Mr. ^ the letter of ^Tr- Langelier *y Was more Government ' was aJso o 'old me f getting tie door , and I tome. wever «o that there was an amount for interest anH fu ~^"""~"==== <=ase It ^ not paid when due. "'' ""' *'^ "^"''g- ^^^P* back a further amount in Q. What was the rate of interest? A. I don't know. The bank could say. Q. Who paid it? A. No Sir, not me. Q- Can you give us the cheques? A. It was dated Julv mth «nri ™ • cooper .' Q- For what reason i> A. A per^nt; a^n; m'e'tThr^^J t''^"""'''-^^'>*^^"-' what I h^ done with ^for^itt.tone; ''''''■ ^^ °^^-«- ^ Had was to tell there wa. nothing particularly private a'bo^r"'^"'^^"^"*-"'^ .ather an arrangement- **• Then what followed ? A. I left the bank then with iWr tu ^. Q.' ^r™ '^ll". J';i,.f/^«; «»°Si"e my other m.to. I left ., „„. „,„,„^ A. No, 8„. I ..id I „„„,^ m/p"! tlS"'' '" ""' '"'"™' ' 60 ^ N' Armstrong \- wClJIhe"? *"" "" " '^""^ «bont the other? Q- You have not told *"^- J arranged with ivr- i '^"'"& of the 28th Tf « f ;^"\r --" ~::r ::: " r '"« -- -isr '"^ '^- - - - ^he wh """' """'^ ^-een ^ ^'^ ^' *^« '»°'«ent of that Q- Where was it paid » **"** arrangement ? A. I couldn't say Q- Where did you proceed fh Q. Where? °"« «'her place ? atthV---^^^^^^^^^ at the Banque i^ational" "^''^ P^"''^"'- arrangement was mad r , Q- r^t^ere instead of the IT • ^ ^''^^ ^ did meet him A- Because I had h,,..- ^"'o° ^ank ? was arranged. ^"^ '^•"•"e«' there. I have no rp. „ • f Who was With you P """•^^"°« --"^ how the interview A- I was alone when r » * A- I went to one or f „ ? ^ *^® ^'^nk ? Q. Where ? "' °' ''^^ P^^^es on St. Peter street. A. One plirce I wenf f^ », Q. Vo,„ ,„™ , "•"' •» Mr. D.„e„ . b„i„ „„ A. My own. Q- And then what? -'^''''^^'^^'^i]:-'^^^^.......,^^,^^^ ^ am not sure go Pa C. N. Armsliong 61 ^•00, the evening '>• order. Banque Rationale y cheque on th& hen to go to tbfr •rangement? "aent that day "•eet and met Jl meet him > interview a note. lot sure Q. Then ? A. Then I went with M. Lar.gelier to Mr. Pacaud's office ' Q. Had he accompanied you all this time ■> A. No Sir, he had not. Q. Had }ou separated ' A. I a«ked him to wait for me until I went to Mr. Demer« offico y. Was It then arranged ' VJ. Did you state the purpose ? A. It was to get my money. with hf,„. '""'°'' "*"<"" •"><>''->«. «■! ^ the manager ...g„i„g „„,.„ j „,„, Q, Where were they drawn ? A. In the Bank. Q. Now referring to the Union Bank- A. I didn't go there. P.ca?d.fo»rf *° '^° ''"'°" ^'■■''•' --« ^»" 'e^u-ted Mr. L^^ehe, to proceed to M. A. Yes Sir. Q- You didn't tell him why. geliefhad^'hel^equi^^^^ ^ ^^ «^'^"^^ 'here to get the $100,000.00 Mr Lan ^J^ I asked you to explain how it was neces.ary to go to Mr. Pacaud's office to get the A. It waa the handiest place any Wftv T .«^. k- Q. I ....de™t.„d y„„ to .„.! 'L " ^"" ^ "" """■ place, "" •"'" """ y" "•"' 'here becauae it wa, the „„,. eo„v.„,e„, Q:H.:^T.:ri?s:i;2;tx;:; "" •"■' ™ '^^ — "«„!.„. piac. A -Th ^ **^o«f the predommant reasons? ,0. the IC «:? """ "' *"" " »- '"»"■ I' -.^e „o difference to „,e where I Q. I take your staten^ ont to be this • thnf Pacaud's Office because it was Bandies!' " "^"^ '"^"'''*''' ^^'^ ^^"^^''"^^ '« go to Mr A. ^-^ I ha. arrangements to make with Mr. Pacaud and I had to go t. his office. 62 ^- ^- Armstrong Q- JVhy,ohf8o(fice' ;J- »"yliMy I had ,„uE """"<"■">? «• W.O ».. S '''vJi'"''' •';■>■'•»■'■« ..w. '^- He went with me >*°"' in a cab. ""'" ^"^^ ^'^^ «round the corner H Q- Was there anv nn i '""^' ^'^^^ driven «. i ^- ^^> ».r, ther T,:";l^"''"''«"^ ^-tween vou that he "''" q""e sure nbout th,u '^' "'*^ «™""''« ^^^^^^es ready "^ no. "°* • lou hrst recpiuo^i Q-J"« that proposed? ^- ^° Sir, not to me. "f- ^o checjue for $ioo noo nn A. I never saw it itu'Tf ""'^ ^'""^n ? Q- Or destroyed" '"''■^^"• ,, q" w;ryrc^-^:j-/or ^100.^,00 at .,. the request of Mr PacaL a^nounta for which th« . A- Mr. Pacaud. -i- ihen, m his office ? "'^ '^''ere ? Vi- In his office ' A. VesSir. C. N. Armstrong 9. ven as l,e was St? lence. lam -ni out there. ^ am not ' not. nined by Q- In whose presence ? wi,ieV's';::;:rr "" ^"""'- »- -^ "- ^™« «« .r^^ ., „„ .,,„. „,, Q. Can you give the exact form in wh.V}, fh» ,„ AT- II wnicn the request was made ' A. Yrs Sir. Q- VVlmt did he sr, ,• ? Q ■ iid ili' ';?1f '" '^''^ ' '™ «° drawn. W.- JJid lie state th^ rt ison ■; A. No. Q- Or what interest h. ..ad in determining, the amounts " A. There was no necessity of statim? it tl, ^'""""^^ • •Q. Had you any private interv ew wi h Mr P. T "'"' '' "'*«• A. No, Sir. '"^'"^ *^'^- Pacaud up to this moment ? Q. With reference to these acts '' A. No, Sir. Q. What followed, Mr. Armstrong ? Q- Who provided the cheques ' A. He had the cheque-bo, -k himself. Q. What did he do? A. He handed me the cheques Q. Fi ve cheques for $20,000.00 each ? A. Yes. Q. Signed by himself as commissioner ? Q. Payable to your order ' A. Yes Sir. ?■ H« h' ^'^ ^'■J^^'^Senev do with them ? A. He handed them to me. Q. What did you do with them » 11,' H < 64 O. JV, Arm, strong- W'.li l . i JMW I mmw ' 000.00 Mr. Pacaud the commissioners 'sion on the follow- LM. ROYAL COMMISSIO^^ „ CANADA. Province of Quebec. I>Mtn(U of Quebec. The fif.ee„.b „, ootobe, i„ .l.e,e„ „f „„ ^^^ ^__^ ,. , ^ ™ tlw.M.nd eighl hundred „i„e,y. Pi•' '-ey do „„t repr^rTfleTofr i'" "-•*' -Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .•— Acte is granted of the declaration. Mr. Biique :— not knowing wh'at^wn,!lHT'*'!i"^ " ^"^^^^stion wliich is this • On «5of ^ con. it shoS not'be t/f,! " f ^'^ ^^P- ^'/..5.*,u..._ '^ «-«-W nature. It seems to me mav it I ^o«. .Vr. Justice Jett6 .■_ Poa.b^/e%ecTS^t t 't. T"'- " ^--^"- - '-^id dow control of the inquiry no ton .i """"''"""^^ reserved to . ? " ^'"^^ '"'p" as j -hy we proceeded' 'to elamL;r°"''°'''"* *^« «oh'" t o "thr^-^" ■'''' '''^"'"te first. I think that, as fho fn^ ^ ^^tne^ses whom we tl o.^!i ? '"'^""■>'' ""d that P«sion of the •„'; ZT' *-"'' ""''^ ^i" ^^•0,^2^"'°"''^ ^« "--'"ined ' ""' ■ '""' """•'^'^^■^ ^'f'o ''re here cannot wait len wish to return to t 'ike this suggestion at they would deter- cedure laid down be n«y say, in addition le inquiry proceeds' witnesses back in a >bt the Commission '«sary. IfJunders •sh t„ have given is es of the witnesses, evidence would not 8ti(»n of that kind, 'eers, because the • The gentlemen 1 certain period of 'hat can be done ommission not to ecJ in their proper 'econdary nature, 'rence of opinion we witnesses the :eded and caused Tanted. This is iiJiation of Mr. Ution were the me, one of the wide rules as t'le absolute "y, and that be examined itifficientiy in ''f'd to a!l the '■'fer showing 'very one so cannot wait and they wish to ho • ~^^^^~ ^=^=:==rr— least at lirst siVhf w '"^'^ "* ^^''^ upon a point th;.t rv, , ■ == very term! f wh S Z T 'TT '"' ^^' -So ng i^ V'"^"?"* ^" '^^ -e, at ieave-to the par:;":;;,;7e uSeslh^' ^ ''''^''''y -"'" c S" nT' "^.^* ^ ^^^ -..examination maf:^-----^^^^ ^Vr. Cas(jrain ;~ •Vr. Unique:— I communicated them to Mr. Hall. ^|^-«^^m..(aaerta.ingeommunicationofali.t).- These are all the witnesses whom you wish to ex. • ^^r. BHque .- ° '^*'"'"« "^'^ °" that point ? ^'ow, yes. Mr. Caagrain :~ There are fourteen. Your Honors. Mr. BHque :— How many are there ? •'1//'. BHque : — Three or four. ^on. Mr. Justice JetU :^ Will you have time to examine them all in .. . Mr. BHque.:- "^^^ •^" '" the afternoon ? Yes. Hon. Mr. Juttice Jem :-. that It rtll b. °lw»y.Th, ,^,'"' " "'""'' "'° '■«"«■■ if •«.. wi? "■"""" " «'»<" "> o,"" - ■ ** f'* *'iriQii?i iiTtrt A. A sp<"titioii3 and dolayi deal with ' lE,' c« Gustuve Grenier as Iblloiw^ Sept™i,o, l„.i ;„„„'™",''»l7. '""I » copy of „,. ,;.„.. !.''„'""'""«'"'-GMemor i„ ,ig° % ^V»'. Casgrain :~ Q- Yon have compared these coj.ies. "^' les. Q; -;«_.,. .eseeop.es a. eo.o...e..heoH^^^^^^ And further deponent saith not. Judgment delivered by Ho.v statute Pe^StlnX- t:r ^^^'^^ ^'^et^roftl^r::-^ •^'^^-^ "- ?:::e^:^?S:t;-;;-^^^ ^. .ter.ren.,or ' that payn.uu was ind ,cll i' i?? *\" ^'^'''""^ ^^e mnn o ?,oo S,'^ 'T^i ^^ ^^^ nmde .vent.on wasnoeessary, in ord' r ' ^'•'"^'™"«'« belief, l,y the (fj?;? n?'' '^^" P^'""''^« of ;n progress betw.on v at t u ' '"""'■' '''' ■'"'^'^^^««'"' tormina 1 , ^'■' ^'^^'^"'^'« '"'er- f'ovornrnent. Ho des mU, ^''" "^ "'« "^w syndic^ 1 ? '"""^^""•'^"■""s tneu accon.panied, a, : X ; 'V'T'''^''''"^ '" ™'»«^ tT^ZoTl r""^'" '"^'"'f'«>-« of he «17^'.0'.0, the ;-es„ t l:olf ^"!"^^ --tainty. with tCZZl, *,"'"'"'"'- ""'^ * • be ^'louiniienoe which Mr. "ed and deposed ty eight and (606) '•5 and 6; i „i8„ (5o7) of eighteen ■Gijvernor to sign lie nineteenth ol" > l-roduce a co{,y J thousand and >y Mr. Irvine ' of iioo.ooo e Langeiier. beyond the itself. The li the good "inistration 'on '"to the •ference, or ■ ^lad niade 3romi,.ie of "li's iiiter- tioiis tiien ei's of the ind to be lis sum of dicate or 'le could '"' apain, liich Mr. men who had previon^lv. V.O .I existed between Mr. I'acand nr„i \ . "^^^^ to have gravity are added to hv the fa^tthnti,-^?"*''' ''"""''''^ t'haracter and its imn.w a certain witness Tf «.„„ ^i, me "-ai villi tlie one nn(Iprn,>„ ; i ■ '"" -'s tne to the witn s then u„r ' ''"''^''" "' ^° '"^^ '"'^P-'-^' of $," "no 7^' ^f^-^''^'^ -'^s Put to reply was that thl^: 'r^rr^rr"' T' "^ ''''' --^^'o whom ^e^^Tir^ :T"^' ternis of the Comnnssion or tl^'s Z.t T''"' '^ *''^^ '^ ''''■ -^ -".:, ,;j;^,;i-. «>« L. B^zque noted as Connnissioner a^d Mr T' f n' *'"^' "^'^^'^ !^«'oni, '^pr " r ok I will cite from the judgment: "'^ -Ine matter to be invesiii'it i" »i " influence certain members of ibnf^"^'^^^'' Payment of $10 000 bv Mr w, , "which voteddurin^th^eZtL '-''''''"''' '"^^^^^ with a certain " '" '"^ '•Doesthismatterrd tetot, Cov"' '"''"' '""^" ^"^'"■«^- "" -1 oge"' tern J;™''"'"^^ :; f ^ -r-'' -'--^^^'o^^t::^. 'r--^ ^^ ~ tri :,rz;: since the appropriation has been voted t e^ h, ' '"""r':'"'^' ^'"^ appn.pria,,- , ^ 1 the sum moMtioued in it Thi« ;. m . • "o^'ons to do with ordei in.r . " .0. Of o„>,,„„„.,.,,.' ■'■ ^"'' " "" ^-..0." onu E«„„„,„, »„„:;,tr:r:,::is ^ow. I can appreciate no distinoM ,n V ' '^'''•''•"''^'>' '•eg''lar and '- ', he immediate and momentary ZX^ZX^]]:;^ 7 *"."'"^'''*^'- '"^ '"^^ '-t "a., L ''' 70 ^ Elliott Webb Of entor upon the d" ^^~^^^^^^^^^^'^'^'''''^^'^^'=========- s »ge otthe statute. 'question which \n. t/,.... „,,• , ' "-"^ mau^, {^ - "^^""1 oomos witn-;,, the ■» A. Yen. ^'^"^'' '^ey are ail attached to tl, An^! further th« -^ ^ P^^'eed- '' »h« deponent saith not to ea abhsh i„ a con- ,'" "s inception and ---'-^' oahe CoJ: e 'omnussio., ) ,;t to ^,°; ''^^^ ™«-... tiS ■'' ''^"'^'s Tvith5n the le Unio.-j a„n^. ^^^ ^ ^'th thfs matter, 'awa and have not •• ^1,750, 124,000 f°^""*^«^ofthe "W each ? '" the Banque to the nrofflo^ C. A^. Armslrong CHARLES N. ABMSTHOWa „ ■ -^==:.^.=.^^ ™*^''^"'"'^PP-'-^d and deposed as follows. y. What did \ou do with th^ u - ^ «"ppo. in vi. Jo?r ^^sr ;i::s^::- ^ - ---r . ^or». Jf.. Justice Davidson .- ''^'^'^ *" ^°«^«'-- Q- Yes, Sir. ?%€ u'itness : — A. IhandedtheratoMr.Pacaud Q- Where ? A. L, a private room at the rear of his office. y- Who took you there ' A. I went in with Mr. Pacaud. H- At whose request ? -^ A. At his. Q- Where rtij you endcMc them? Q:whfrp~rr"''^' "•'»'■ '■"'«»■ A, Mr. Pacaud and my8(>]f. Q. Did you take a receinf fn,- m,;„ . XT „. it-ceipo loi this amount '' A, jNo Sir. Q- What followed ? A. I left then ; I dont think there w,t. anv.v Q. You left with or without Mr. La" , f' "' '""' '^'^^^^" "^ *^''«--^- • A- I think I left alone. ' Q. Were was Mr. Langelier '' A. v„„ ™eL „„e::e:;„rr ""° "™ ''°""" ^™ ^ y- whinyou went out I w:i;i::-- ---;.. ao... .„,,„,„,„, ,„,^ ,.„^^ ^^^^ y. Are you aware whether f l/ u ^Rcmer, out .hi, ?iCr" '"'■"«" "-'^ '"'.her n,.e™. i„ ,.„„„„i„„3, ^ II 12 ^' N. Armstro Cheque ior»ioo,00(). ''''^'l"^' ^e may have issued « . cheq„e,of$20,000eacir^'-^'^^'^"^*«™e. He wished to h. ., '-^^r:--'r-oni.e. ^"°"^-''— -ve .e^;J' - -- -S - r- :^" -ej^. J ---. oi..00,0., ..3 . .e Q. Directly yourself ? ' ' -^ - and to pay the $100,000 to Mr -A. Directly myself. y- Jn the manner in whini, v ^. A. Well, somewlm "n th«^ ''^' ''"""^ " hzm «100,(.00. '" ''^^^ '"'^nner. r expected to get the f „ . Q- Iam.peakin,ofthe form notoftl • '''^" '^"'^ ^^ ^"^ A. I expected, in the firsf nil ? *^''' Pnnciple ? »>e Paul in diflferent su,„s' ""' '^"^"^^ ^" '^-e received f ,7o,000. r „•, „ , , ?• Y"^ ^P^-^king with reference to f h "'*' '"' '^'^ '« That wa. after receiving the 175 000 th« • '"""• *e evenmg before Th ^• Thed«count.ttheBanque C. N. Armstronsr lank? ^m,000 was firat rs »ut I never 'saw a or fhat amount. ■ *''e fact that Mr. '»at he made out *(le out at your f « 175,000, but I ■'•y you so far, of which Mr.' i^ieques in five after that. 000, was to be 00,000 to Mr. and to givi ^ it was to f be made ? 000 to Mr. committee now that I - Banqi Natiojjale, havinff been onlv fnr«7-nn/\ • how they would pay the other £,Z I'Zet ''''' \ T'^''' ' ^^ -' aware then about getting the money, and I w.sJrpSTofilT;'^ to me there was so.ne hitch was ,n a position to ha„d n,e the cheques at once ' "' '"°"""^' '^'^^ '^'- ^'^"g^'i^^ Q. W hat created that .surprise » Q. «-hat g«v„ ,i™ t., thi, belie hri™, T^u ' •"'°'"'*' '" *■ ''"««"<1- credit discounted. " ^"'' ''''^ '^^*^" b"«3-'"g himself about getting the letter of Q. Is it not a fact that l)eforf> tlm «»„ ,* ^ " Q. You nnde..tood tha Mr J C ? . ^;.""™'"«« >"^" «wore as follows : ^ " A. They had the letter of ^redi^an^Tf^t^J^^^ ''' ''« '"°"^>' "'-«' ? I understood the money would be paid direct ""^^ "' """" "™"'^^ '^ ^^^S ^hen^^e'v.. I understood that Mr, V- At tlie tune you Avent to Mr I'aoan,!'*, ^m aware that he was not then in pos^e.In of t^.'^ 'i:;! ""'r*' 'k""''"'^^'^"'' ''' ^"i*« -«" prev,ous^ev.d^ice ? ^'^^ '«tter of cred.t,-if I understand your '■J. VVlmt knowledge had you of tlmt fact ■> A. From Mr. Pacaud himsi^lf. Q- To what banks had heanni;f.rl o,^ <•„ i • A. I jo„, know t,„.. I., s ;; :r„Th ;r:iT'"' ''.r""'" •"•>" »' "'' «-- » Q. Was ho successful ? ' """^ *" '"t- than tlie Union Bank. A. Not at that time ^..i^«nre:;:;:er::;-ir:'„r™:r;.r^^^ A. The cM,„e. ™e i..„ed b. *! SS-i^'^r/-;,^,, , • •'• ^hrysostdme Langelier ; and Y4 C. N Armetrona- »y ob,i„uion. "'"" "-^ ^^ '■""■"« ^o accept th.«e cheques I ha. k- ^^^^==^=^=== th J-, '^' "°* ^ ^ 'i ' "r '''r"rr^'^'«'«gain«t^hrr' ^"^^^ «'^«q"^« were ^- No : r :„i,n£, tj^^j ^^^^ "8^ 01 the letter of credit -t No. Q- None whatever ? A- None whatever A':No'r"^^'--^^«^oreh.-., Senate SnJ^itte'e '"'' "''"^ P^^««"* ^^-^tement agree with this evid • " Q- You ...vpected it would h '"'" ""^'"'^ ^^- " A- I thought Er..«t Paclud 1 7^"' ""'''"' "'^'"^elves ? " Q. Who ■> ^''''''^ ^«^ *he letter of credit hin,«elf r h . . ;• A. IVfr. Paeaud. '""'^- ^'^^^ '^enatal. about it. " Q. ^Vho else ? " A. Mr. Pacaud in iVfr 'n,n„, '^i^- J horn's presence." I-""".!', office ,r,h, I '"■"""■ " t" "haher Mr n, ' ""'"'"■• -.,t«?ji.7r°' "■•'■"■■ " »"^e" ,: ' 7 '"'■> '*. ,?■ '""• '- »"■« • ■'"^^ 'Pftny itself owed C y. Armstrong ctions.itdischarKed fhesg cheques were ''W willing to accept the letter of credit ^nion Bank, 'wntis provided to ^ the Bank before isaction ? 76 iven before the ™ taJk about it. erenro to the Thim. That ' was in Mr. you reached 'erenne of a .'posifively. > were other of the sub- Jtself owed Q. What was the amount of those unpaid liabilities ? A. Well, as near as I can toll at the tim« *i ).ne of the railw«y. Then there wi.e amourfo "i" "T ^"'""'"^ ^'"^^ *'^^'"*^" "^'-g the claim made by Mr.MacFHrlane wh^hw^ ??"'''"' '" '^^^"*'*^'^'- '^^^^^' wa« afaree both the Company and I pretendrngharrMtcF:,"^ is now b. fore the courS wa« notlnng due to him, and he. on'the Zr ^ tim^: "" "'"P"'-^ ""'■ '^^^ ^^erl A W..n tv,„ „i ■ wieate ra to why they were not paid ? payi^J^^tt;— f^a^^^-^ he had no means of MacFarlln";?; liabiluL'?'''"''' *''"' '*' '^^^'^ '^"^ "^ ^^ese public funds to the payment of directr^pTe'j^mpTnVt:^^ The old shareholder, and -made that an obligation with the new .H^'Sorl comin*^^ "''"' ^^""''^ ^'^ P^'^' - f"" dollar due for wJk done :::^^::^^: :^2:^ ^:tr -' " "'^ ^--^ ->' a contract being entered into w-th^prs S petle't dfd" T"^^ ^""''' °"''^' ''^ '-^' - 01 the claims, it covered the completion of Lr . "°* '"'''*'' s'^P'v the pavment would not be justified in using a^v S' thaf moner' ' "'' ""*' '* ^''^'^ ^'^^ ^^^ ^-erL" nt Q. And you considere.l that that did not applv to vou' \. It did apply to mo a-t well. Thev could ,.r,f r. ' ' . oo...;„edTe. """"'"'"■•"°"''""»'<'-"- «.H. ,-., .„e whe„ earned, bu. Q. At that moment ? G.vetftr:;:;:',;■r:■:f;^s.tt^,^^^^^^^ ^ -". .... Que... ofU,e,i.!:" ^■'■">'-*- "■«'*",.„„. U„.„„e .„«,;. d,„„„,He„„„„.He,p„„i„„ Q. Then, at the moment of vour set Homo,, t *u 76 C"- iV. Armslrnng- A-V«. I, .y even- „„„„„,. , . '"""""""""V f»r««hi„g„, ' « ■«.' «. .ha. „„„,e„. ,„„ , ' ' '"" "•"«««'. "■" "o .dd,-.i„„., ''""W .imply |,a„ ke™™,edT'l'*;' '""«" "'"> <"> »'e >■■ "■« "'a. „„ 7 -te,dd... j;:::: - '° -^^ "-^ -•- --.sxt tha pre refu pai i LUJI I IIMI ■'jay you promised to Jn money. here. I will have to 'Silly ^aymenta were len I was entitled to e to me. By 'or something of Ib were not caah. nment ? hut no additional •our contract, you C N. Armstrong •77 imount of work tors. iicate ' That \va» on 50,000 for the Government aimed by the Id probably Q. I am 8i,<.aking of the subsidies ' olland subsidies into cLi • .,,/,, "."'.^'"^ '"'U'er sums received l.v the con vw olhe». There were ,uierae,,t,,„bmirtel a Z ? ':'"- """='' ■"»'« expemive U,.„ -.«»^««ire, ,,n::Lr»;srrr;f^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A. None whatever. ^r»uge . .o„lr;' "" '"' '°™' ««- »'-- >- .- „e„Uo„ea . . b„i, of „,„.„,„. „, or 4rr™""''-'"'-"««''™"'-o„.„ believe .b« ,ou wouH ...p. ,»,,«, A. No Sir, quite the reverse. Q. Or Mr. Thorn either ' -TpF---=^ or r«ber ... that to wbicrtlmiiiTu't^e a;;i,S'i' '™ """"'^ '° •""' ""'' P^P"' f<« example .. refmcd to ...k, »7o» X' Z.''""™'' *""*''"' '''' ""' "■'"'""'■e of »2SO,000. Ipo.itlvely 78 C N. Armstrong Q- That is the onlv reaa , Q- In what „a.v . ' ""'' "■»" ««0,000 ah,«| n ■ J'.»>' "ooiveii fcSU.OlKj V- *oii muat beawaiod. Ir "Ponthea^aetsoftheVn, "" '"^^'e^'' of «i7oO()o „vf?°"- ^ veiejonalwaysofthat l,elie/9 A. I was not sure about d rea «nd 115 of the OffiSfp ^""'' ^"''""ce Riven br/.u "'" ^""'r^'al. A. IhatuwasinNewYork. A..f .rxr- ^"■■"' "«' '- .»..^ o„. „„„„„„,„„ .„,, a. N. Armsitong- a? t°'d him plainly the tJe my claim, and he 3"8ly offered to take '■d »175,000 instead ter getting Siso.OOO •ere )P180,00(» ahead ' been t],e effect wouicl have had '175,000 and they fc was agreed to e Senate Com- 'w at Montreal at New York 'ew in Mont- at pagea 57 '• ^ am in- fieans to find ? yesterday, faud. He Q- Has it now become a m nf,,,. ^r Q. Did you oo„.id„ i, „ ,„„," " ,'■ " '"»» '■« "="»l>« I ■»)• ."=».c.ry ab„„, U ? Q. BCwce,, the p,,„„i., .,„ ehjpj: ,7, Ith ' '""" ","" " <•'"''■ A p„,i ^ '"'-"'' a month intervene( A. Rather more than a mo„th-po.si..ly six weeks. you ^-P^^tl^^::'Z^:^fi:!:'V''' "'^'' '"-^ -• '- ^l^tail what service --he services in detail, wf-jLTVlrerit^r '''' ^"^ ^>*« "'-y S He;^r;t^::£,J:;'-,^-;^;j^^^^^^ •>< *-«-..« with the Government newspaper; in fact, he was bnsy with all so/ ? ^^'"■' "'"' '" ««'"r"' of their Sh " r ,' but. t was principally from ^. Zt[Z^^^^^^^ X- --P- .r Mr. MacOonald a^^ 'i^^ZS^i^Z^:^^^:^ Q- Now, yon have not answered the question. Q- J^thatall, Mr. Arrastronif? A. Tliat is all there wn-s to it. 80 ^- ^' Armstrong I hi Q- Can you tell niP \r^ < ~^ company? ''"'" ^'"^^ ^^^^'^ MacDonaM to Mr m , '^- ^'^«- I wi.sh to make that "' '" '"'" °"^' '»"' «W the. p. Ji:'^^ -"^-^ eon,., not earr, ^.uCaSS::S^.;;;^-^ ^o ,ou P ^ Q- I want to know M. v. '"'^''""^'^ "»'««« MacDonald and Cameron "tt:;"? "V'"^ '""--^- -^at was the total ^- That I do not kn. P'"'" "^« ^'i'' ? ""'"""^ for which Senate Committoe /, ""'''' ^*"c«^Pt from hrarsav an,l f wtlp-J- off the debts. '^'" """ «'"»'"« thev ,ml,to*f' '"''**'•««' !»' 'be A. .r,.,.d*d .„.,., "^ "■''•• ™'""^^'Wn. .he CO.. o.,., Q- I°"r account ^^^ "« subsequent. A. Neither directly nor indirectly. % i»fr. Casgrain :~ Q- At which further noeotiah-„n. from^.mtrluZTu"^''' '^'^^ "'«'"• ^^e 12th March th . 6 82 G. N. Armstrong A. Yes. *'"'''" ^'^'« through Mr. Facaud ? Q- On the morning of thp nt), ,.„ * , A. Yea. Q- What did you tell him ' ^^■^^^^:vzz:^-^ a. H„„o„„Me M«,„. CCcS';.'T,!r '1" °";f' «"■■■ *« i- *« private ». Boyer there ! ' '-"•*' I->"Sel.er, Kobido,,,, si.ehvn a"d B° er? Waa car? A. I think the oulv Mini J^ tut P"''*'*^ ^ar ? Langeiier. ""''^ ^'"'«*^« I had «een go into the car. were Mr Robi , Q- When the train arrived at St Jo, ^ '"^' *"'' antees, the Government would h.. ,.T . '^ syndicate couldgive th« n . Q- And hegave you th^ atem JtT '"^ '■''' ^'''^ ''^-"^- "«^-«"y guar- pnvace oar ? "^^'--"^ - connng from those gentlemen who were in th ^•i^d\^r-~- '^^""^^"^^""^^^^^^^"^"'^-^^^ A. I did not unXi'Iid th.u!'" '"'"' '^'"^ ^ "^^"^^^ ^^ the Cabinet ? ' y- Well, practically he wa«? Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .— Perhaps we had bett.T co/idn,. f. ^.V Af;-, Catigratn :— Q- jN^ow, adayortwoaftPi- w«,. hat train, and then overnment. through spared to treat with jaJ to New York ? >r car, a private car. C- N. Armstrong Private car, were ind Boyer ? Was ) the private car ? hidoiix and Mr ' ? necessary guar- 10 were in the Cabinet in that 1 will induce 'sfingyou to Q. You went to New York ? A. Yed. 1: v"J. '■"" ""°"<""« "'"-"ict Bow ,h,„. * T.y .„d ,„„„„„. w,X;;Vr„r« ",' ""° "'""<'"«-«' M.- Thorn. A. 1 cannot say. V- Is it not a fact it wn>i M^ d j • . A. I „„„„, „, .u.Tn.?£xt:jr.:,^'r ' ■»" "'re there • A. Yea. Lang^lie^:nd";or^^^"°"«-" between Mr. Pacaud. Mr. .„on. Mr K H. A. The conversation was between Mr Thor... o " ' Mr. Kob.doux. Mr. Ijomed in it. Mr. Pacaud may have saL «n I,^'"- ^"^''^""^'^"^Mr.Lan.elier- nf. cussion. ^ '"^^^ «'^"' something but he hnri n«n . *"*'^"er; afterwards Q. How long „,■„ .h»t ..te . * *" "° "'"■ '"» *' A. Just a tew minutes. Q. What was said ? A. It was more a question of h th.t wore .poke,, „f '"" ""' "" »"<""S or the Aet „„f i „.tl' ,' ""' """"^ ""•l .ho„i i k ^ • and ready to go on with the hus^L ""' '^ '''''''' ^ -- - the Ministers were hack Q- You were to be advised hy Mr. Pacaud? "' Q. You were advised by Mr. Pacaud A. Yea. Q- And you came to Quebec? A. Yes, I came to Quebec. Q. You met Mr. Pacaud " A. No, I did not. Q. Now, you did ? . A. You may make .ne 8«,v sr, K,« t j r\ V ^' "^^ I dont sav it Q. You met Mr. Pacaud .n Mr Thom- A. I may have met him m Mr ThI ' '"" '" ''° '" ^'^"^ ^otel ? Q. The first timeVou met Mr. Pacaud V^tMr^ ^r«" ' -"-' - Quebec. A. No, I think... ^ "^ ^'^^ Thom's room 'I Q. Are you sure ? A. Yes. Q- Will you swear that it was n-t the H™t ti,« A. I dc. ^ "™t *»'»• >"u met him ? Q. Do you swear you did not telerihone Mr P . A. I think it is quite lifcelv r ^ '""^ *° '^'""^ '« meet you at th » , with him. ^ "''«'-^- J g^^nerally telephoned when I wanf T '''^ ^ Q. Tl.at wa* some tim. af.-r that O d • " "'""'" A. Yes. u few days after ''' '" ^""""" ^'^ P^-ed ? Q. Between the Order in roimnii a t. A. Well, I ^w him with momben, of M Q. You saw him .ith Mr. LateHer' '"""'"''"' "" "^--^ occasions. A. \es, several tirnei", ; Q. You«.wlmn>.ui.Mr.l>uhumel? d) II ou me C. N Armstrong ;ate were willing to obacktoMbntieal? i before they could • almost as soon as, tates, Mr. Pacaud 'listers were back Quebec. at the Hotel ? an interview " Quebec, of Wedge with A. Xo, he was not here at the time. Q. You thought you wefel ' to il? / '' "^'^ ""'^ ""'''' «"™« ^e'-y- A. ' ir , <,u 1 understood. issued .' <" ' '.iat is true ? • ^ have found out since. ''".^^1lo^'c^^^^^^^ members of the government. '*^"'"' >nterviews. but I saw him several times with Q. With Mr. Langelier ' A. Yes, I think I saw him with Mr. Duhamel A. He waa there several fimo,. r k xmgs . Q. After the,, inti,!™, to*! '..""."P'*'" '""""'i™- A. The iel.„„ of ere He^ tllf™ Ih li!!" f ""'" ""= ^"<"' ' Q. v™ c„rie<, „.. .he .,re,„.„. ,„„ H.. ,„„,e wUh hta in New-Yor. • ^i.^; '"' "" '■"""' -'• •'«". Kive„, .o„„,e«»„, „„„ .hi,.,oo„ „,, ,, A. Xo Sir. .»,«^ fotr """" '""" "^"' ' "■- ■••«■ ■"«' '« "... . -.™,.r„a„„. .„„„,„„ „,„ A. N(j Sir. ».n?fo;it'r,i"x:;C;''''''''"' "'''''""'■ •°°°""'"'''«'°"^ -■mt..,„r*.a,,,»,. A. No Sir. Q. What? A. No, Sir. Q. He did not state that ? ' A. No, Sir. «. 86 ^- ^' Armstrong A. I would rather not state. Q-J^^vou]d rather .vouwouW. ^'e (Jo j.ot beJiovp If ; C N. Armstrong ^nt'y but it was not ybody. 3ocJy"oC tlu. way i,i ' n^'t saiil in io as tl)e di- letteltcJcmuX;Se;;fh!r.l;ISofSr "^^ '"""^ P''^^*^ -^'°»t theTissmn^ of th. the letter. orcr..,it on the 29th Iplif :h^ti:';f """'' *'^ ^'''^ ^P"'' ^^^ " SuinV'of Department of Public Works or on i. "^^V ""' '° ™"°'^ hesitation on thenar nffi? ''«• ihey did hesitate? Q. And Mr. Pac.iud also ' A. Yes. tog^\p,:;^;;'S;t;^ " "^ ^-— ^^^^^^ M. P.eaud o^ wit., ^r. Xho. Q.' w;rhadirdo wii,: -r" ^'^ ■''"^^^ '''•-•«^" ^ ^ •- • nothing to do with it A. The officials of the department. I suppose Q. But he urged the payment ' ^ °- *'"^' ''^"^r of credit, at all A. Yes, he urged the settlement of the matter A. No, Sir, I did not. A. n!? Si? ^° *" '^^ ^'■" ^'""^''" • A. Z i -^ -^°^'- "' '""« ".™ le«e„ „r „,.,. ,„„ „^ „^. ,,,_,_ „ ATl,eli„tlimetl,»,ri,.. ,„ "-""'•"»'"»''««•" of credit we,, n wi '. ^'*'' i'rtrhament Bui^i; ,,«, Q- ^ho wore with you? ^" 88 C- N Amisoong y'^i-w:::;:^':!''^'^"--"^ Office A- Mr n.nr^ " waiting for? O WH ' '"'"'-''■Pallv. ^- ;^-/-^/>neforhini. ^ »'— , coudn. «., hi.. He wa. ii^isS'--~- - A. Yea. ^'^^ ^^"'^^'neJ, Comm,s,io„,^ Q- Then the3- met v • " ^''"'^^ ? A- ^^o, I think ll T* '" "'^ '^"'^-'•""•n ? Q-TheWtfo/eS""''"*hepa««.g, ;J- I clon't know I d^?r°' •''^" «*^"-' ? Q- What time wa« thlj "' «^^ "-«"ed. so I cannot tell w.. . ^^- Probably- about f5ve o'clock "^^ ^"^^• j2^!;ad'e?treoTc:r'^-- A-Ithinkhesa .,? '°'"^^«^J^- Q- l^ey would ;,^',/ :3^^"1^^ J""', thev would finrf h' A- I don't km ;,, ; "^ ^"^ ^^''t '^ ' ""^ '''"' ''^* his house. Q' Wajsn't he in th^ i •, ,. "Jie in the building? ^\I think not. Q. Are you sure ? A. Iiim sure. S5^-^:::t'::r^---».e. ,, •^- I clon-t know, i ;:":" "^"^^'^ ^o Mr. Machin's office' ■-•"•'•■"---•"~=«Si2;r.--^. C N. Armstrun/r 8f d him. He waa I him. ned. "■e- I think it- 1 will be •rence to sither in gelier said everything was ready. I Mr. Langelier or the Manager of the ' A. No, decidedly not. M Jin-^oS^ '"' ""' ^°" '"'^^^ ^'- ^"h''-' -nt in with the letters of credit to Mr. A. No, sir, r don't know ^J. Did,„„,ee.he„..e,ore„mf„„75,000.,.erM..Duh.,„e, c.„., b.ck wi.h M, A. I am not sure tliat he ' nd. ' Q. What did you g, down to the bank for ' A I was asked to g„ down to the Bank. M dul^not know who had the letter, of credit-wh.. Q Mr. Chryso8t6me 1 mgelier? A. Mr. Chrysostdme Langelier ^-^^^^::^zt^XLi:::::^\^^^ - p-ed. it wa« you beco.ae aware that it was passed' °" '^' 2^"' ^P"'" ^hen did Q." Who :l;:X*f ^'^ '' ™'^^' '^ '"^^ --« day or the next morning. M.-. Lit ^^ WHS n^Snglrfi^" '""^ ''^- '''°'"' °^ '' ™^^ P-b'^'^ly have been Q. Wiis It Mr. Pacaud ? A. It may have been. Q. Was it ,iot Mr. Charles Lang, lier " A. Well. I have s ,id I cannot remember. credit. ''^^- ^arneau, m connection with the letters of »h April, me„, Mr. G.me.t, » k I'ul sti7i„ ,7 S'T "■"""" "'^P"' «"<" '"e I«m, How, ., ,vhioh interview between v™ ^L7„,\, "' »' *«'»"■ ■>??»«'« tlle St. arce a, to the i„ni„e of lette» of Sj "'' ""'" <""■""• ■''">' «'■ G»™e«u, « nue.lion pre.etl'°" '''"""""'"''■"'''«'"»""" '"'■'-."insof the letters of ereUi. in Mr.«.r„e.t,.. A £"„!?' ""*■',?"" "'■ "'" '"*■='*■■ "'• Armstrong - .■»..rvi.w^'s'^s:riLr:;rS[hr'"''r'''''*''°""^"»-°"k^^^ fsr^rtrcr;^rs-:!iKtotf-«'-<'- .rtertr^:''"'"- '>"«--"."* «"., ». I ..,in. 'je'rtZL to the Dep„.„e„. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k A /- f/. 1.0 ^^ 1^ ^= •" lii 1 22 1.1 I "^ M^ 11:2^ i 1.4 11^ 1.6 V o> /; > > PhotDgraphic ^Sciences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WIBSTIR.N.Y. MStO (71e) •72-4903 W^ iV iV A \ 90 C. N. Armstrong Q. Are you sure ? A. I would not be positive. I went to and fro so often that ti. You went there very often ? A. I went there often A. I think 80. ^ '" *" '^''^ ""'^ Joi^^'J yo» ? Q. What did he say ? A. I don't recollect what he said in particular. H- ile spoke to Mr. Garneau ? ^ A, I think he Hid. perhaps U,« dai- before '"™'' °" "" ^"' <" "<"■ » """y h«ve been Q. Well, it was before tliat then ? matte; f' '"■• ^"'"''" ^'^^'^ ^■•- ^^"™ ^ '«"- P-mising Mr. Thorn to arrange the A. Well. I did not see the letter, so I cannot tell what it contained. Mr. Casgrain, addressimj the Commission .— I »8k that this letter be produced ; it is in the record. i p.rLretrre\t;r ,-;s"' """ ^ -• --■ ' ^. He was very angry— Mr. Thorn was ^ tell what he sn?to Mr. Garner '"' '"""' ^^'"^ ^'" '^''^^ ^^ ^-^^^'^ ^-k. I cannot A. Pe" ■^'tVlure'"" ^"" '"' '^"^^"^ ^^'°" ^'^^ '«"-' ^^ ^--'e^ back ? Q. You did not go to the buildings with Mr. Thorn ' pres^te ::ii^^z: t:^^ ^:2^r^^i:7 tt '"''' ^^- «--- *- ^^^ lection. w„« at the time we n, . :!; the t e 7; L?' T;""'"^ *? '""' ''^ "^ --'' Q. Didn't you go down to Mr cZ.l • T' ""'^ *'''° "'" ''"•^^ ^^o^^"- the Lower Towi-.^i J r n^^::::]^:^:;:^ '"' ''''-'''■ "~''« -'«- - A. I don't believe I have ever been in his oHice. y. Uid you go to his house :' A. I have never been in his house. Q. Do you say the only interview whicli you had with m.. n the payment of the subsidy was the inttrvieu « oVi ^ , ^f "''*" '" connection with complete .h„ „,„„„„.,, h„p„;;°M"r"b?:rili,r'"'' "" """"*'■ "'" °°"' """« •» C'. N. Armstrong as you were J arrange the A. I suppose it was. a! OhTna'"' "" '''"■'"'' """^^ '" P"'"°"'«^ *" ^'- «"'-i'^y ? ofor?ait''::Vl^TvtC^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -«e tl,e letters getting the matter through ? ' ^^'''''^^^' "'' "'''e^^'i^e, lor the purpose of ^ IN or to any ot the otlier ministers'' you hurry this thing along ? '- ' ^ ' ' ""^''' '""P'^' *^'^^'« "^^ed Inm, " Why don't A Antir -^'^^'u^ ' •' "' '" '^^^ connection was done with Mr Pacaud '> tion.tiir G^rm^r"'^ '''■• '-' •^^- ^^- '^^-'*' - -^t on the n.goti. right^oftrshaTehofdt r" ^"^'" '^'^ *^'''^ '^"^^^ ^'^ "^ ^-^ndieate acquired th. A. Yes, fiir. Q. They had ? A. Yes Mir. • Q. How ? A. Tiiey had hougho them out .>nd had the shares transferred. H, «elore you were paid your $175,000? A. Yes, sir, several days before? Q. Well, nov , how did they do it ? eighths or three-fourths; It all events tlevhTl" , ' ^''''''' ^"'^ "^' ^I'^m-seven- Q. Was eve..y share paid for? ' '' ""'"•"'^- "'" '•'^- «'"^-- A. I can't say. «■ Are you ,ure ihere were no notes ot all ♦ A. There „ere cort.inlv .„„,e written ngreement,, if tl.ere were no .,„„, I z iz :t:r '"" ""- '° "- -'^ °"' "■■ "» '-■ •" -- - - • ^ .har^-/""""™'"-™" '""'"■ •™""""'r.T„o,„„ certain „,„„, „„„,, ,„ „„,. ,,^ received' '""' "'" " ''°'"°» "' '"■^- ■"•"'«> '« ''■ <-'■> »" are-a portion „r ,„e t;„,o«, j J»y, they „,igl„ ,„„ |,^,„ „iu, ,°";fi;°f "^ ''»>■ •. "''I " 'I'ey l,.,l „„, ,,.en paid ,ha, ..ve l,i„. the ,r„„l,l„ oiKoinu t„ M e» L^r t " 'l"™ '""'" '"'I'd™"" i ami to Oft,,.. .o„ey-tl,„t l.e L„l5 n." ;rf t^S t^^ t S ^S'." ""^ ^■■°' -« 02 C N. Armstrong receiti *th«l ^"'^ V'""^ t' u™"'^" ""^ '^' '^'''^' ^^^^'"^ y^" ^'^'^ ««"led with and you received the money, how could they withdraw their offer ? A. That arrangement waa made with Mr. Thorn the time the transfer was made. y. You say the time expired on the 28th April ' A. I think the 28th was the day it expired. their\are!'to'th;? "" ^"^l ""^'f'^"^ '^^ ^'^'''- 0° you say they had transferred ineir .«nares to the new syndicate before that time ? A. I think so— a couple of days before. Q. Well, then they could not withdraw their offer exnetteJ tot'tT'' *° '"' n''.''^"^ ^"'^ '''' '"""^•^' '^« ^''•^ ^^e transfer was made. I expected to get the money that day. get f?om'the 0^27:'^'^' '''^ ™^ '° '^ '"'' "^* °*" *'^ '''''''' ^^'^'^ ^^ ^^ *° A. So far as Mr. Thoni and I were concerned I was to lend him that money. That had nothing at all to do with the old shareholdei., and they were not parties to Z agjeele:^ Q. That was one of the cheques given at the Banque Nationale by you ? A. It WHS'in two cheques. Q. Two cheques of $24,000 and «31,0(H) respectively '' A. $24,000 and $16,000. Q. Did Mr. Thom give you a receipt for this loan ? A. Xo. Sir, tlie cheques were made payable to his or.ier, which is a receipt of itself. q. Therefore you made this loan to him upon the endorsation of Mr. Thom » A. Yes, Sir upon his personal word too, which I considered quite good. Town t. ' "^ " ^T, ""'t ^"- ^^'y^'^'^'"^ Langolier in Mr. Pacaud's office in .he Lower paTrPrifthllfufneT;'^"^"^^^^ ''-' '^ pay you that money or S for thatm^'^"?^'?r° "Y >^»°^lf dge that he had gone down to Mr Pacaud's office StrelttT?alur:L'e^^"^ '''''''''' *'" ' ''' ^''' ^^"^ *° "^^ ^ -" ^^^^ ■ Paca?idT'' ^'""'''"''^""-^ Langelier knew at that time that this 1100,000 was goinj. to Mr. A. I don't know that he knew that. I didn't say that. Q. Well, I am asking you now ? A. I had no reason to think he knew it. Q. Why would Mr. Langelier, whose office is in the Parliament Buildines d-o down fn Mr. Pacaud's office with $100,000 ? iJuuaings, go down to A. I luiA'e already told you that I met him at La Banquj Nationale and asked him to^come to Mr. Pacaud's office. He .lid not start from Iuh office to meet me arM^Saud" Q. Did he carry on him a cheque book of La Banque Nationale ? A. That I cannot tell you. Q. Did lie happen to have a cheque book of the Union Bank on him » A. Ihat I don't know. He may have had blank cheques. Q. Had he blank cheques ? ' A. Yes. Q. Were they cheques written out ? '.v:;:^ : led with and you vas made. had transferred 3r was made. I ich you were to ney. That had that agreement t. N. Armstrong 98 ipt of itself, lom ? e in the Lower at money or to Pacaud's office cm Peter 8 going to Mr. 8, go down to id asked him ■ Mr. Pacaud's A. I am not sure whether they were or not. asked hJm to p^itV" "" '"'^""' '' P"^' *'"« "-->• '" thema.n.erin which Mr. Pacaud so loili X:«edri!Z,r'"""^ '° ^'™ «° ^°"^ - ^'- '^^-^-s weremadeout, pay i:s^:x s:;r:^; i "^st-i,; rVk ^"' r •;'- '^ ^- ^-^-^^ - -you came «ome time atKrhimoThf! ^^ '^'''*'""''^'*"'' ^^'••^""g^'ierg^^t there Mr. Langelier to make :«! the cheques then"" " ""' *'"" ^"^^ ^""- ^«-' ^'^'-u -" (t Thl^U ,h'" '° T^' ""' '^''' "'^"'l"^^ «*'*20,000 each. r ^"'*' "^ 'he way the conversation began A. The conversation was very short A. I don't know about that «. Now, did Mr. UngeliBr „. you got, ( "^ """' "' '" "" •»*«■ A. He saw me, certainly. Q. You were there a very short time ' q" Wa's It a? thT''' '" ^"'''^"^ "'« cheques and hand them over Paca'udlir r:o'"gr rr=^^^^^^ ChrysostalungeHer that Mr. tfiousand dollars into five cheques of «2oX "ach ' " ' "'" '" ''''"' ''" ""^ ^""^^^"^ him ta/if "^ it was in that same room and in his presence. I don't know that he heard thattrs;:s^;o^:rr:b^,;:?,^sr-^r^^^ -- ^^^'^^-^ -— Nationale and which were given to Mr Thom T ""^ ^^'' '^'^''^" '^^ the Banque know where these cheques are" ^^ ^''"* "^''" ''^ *«" «« whether or not you •Thorn ? Armstrong, that these cheques were not made payable to Mr. A. My impression is tliat ihev were • thuv ...„,. » i Q. Is it not a fact that the chequrol $24 (iv^^ "^ "''' Y"' ^''"• A. They were all made pa^T, ^ oX byT'f ''';'''^ *' '''' ^^^ ^ Q. And that you did not endorse it ^^^^^t^.. therefo.e Mr. Thorn ^.iitftt {.;.^^ ifi C. N. Armstrong Q. Who by •;' A. By Mr.' Thorn. l>im, or ,.ne, at all events, in the hank ''®'" °^*"1"«'' ^^''^ endorsed by Q. A« to the $1(>,000, that was not endorsed eithe- ■> A. My impression is that it wws .vo.,rt„t:.,e,t i^'lr : S ■''"' "°'"-^ "*" «■' *"«" «»-»•■». and u, .h« U«, „, A. Yes. Sir. Q. In rish ? A. In cash and ni orders, about $50,1 lOO now ' Q. Of this amount, how much did you keep for yourself A. Yes, for my benefit. Q. Can you tell us to whom ? A. To a great many different parties. I don't think thaf ;« .f anyway. '^ "" ^"•"'^ ^hat is of any special interest Q. Now, coming to your claim, which vou t-aid vv>n i.„ i you ceased work in ,889, it had not increld iVor^ that 1 f T?f '''' ""'"P^"^ ^^en that claim of 1298,000 was payable to voiHn boS when' t " V° '^' ''"' ^P"' ^««*' «»d A. No, not all of it, when the nmd was co mple "c^''',; '^^^^ ""^ ^'^^P'^'^^ ? payable at that time. ^""ipieiea , there was part of it that was Q. How much ? A. I could not tell you the exact figures. The comnanv h„H • v, percentage until the con.pletion of the work TirnlV V'^^' *° ''"''''" ^««'tain payable on .he completion of the wo kLuiodi J r P"f ?"' °'^ course, would only be ofca^h received, of cou..e.wa.pay:ble;itn.™' '''^^^" ^'>^* ^^^ the amount Q. You received all the cash subsidies ? A. I received all the cash subsidies, yes. Q. You said, yesterdav, if I understnnH nViiti-r iu . xt cash ? " ' ""^e^tood rightly, that there wa* nothing due to you in A. I said that, yes, and I still say so. Q. Bonds were due to you ? A. Yes. Q. Supposing the whole road to be completed, what would bPth. , . A. I place the value about 76)6 of the face value "' °' ''^« ''^"*' ' ^- N. Armstrons Mr. Tliom as to iier there was a I took place ? i*e endorsed by to the best of the Company. cial interest npany when aril last, and 3d? it that was in a certain lid only be he amount 3 to you in Be bonds ? *" ""EEr '"^ '" " '" '° "" """'""'"' "'■"«" ""' -•' - -'^ -0 V- Who by ? •^- By MiicFarlane. •Q. That is your contention ? A. There is no contention ubonf if t. • ^ Q. How much ? Q. What made y,,,, think th.it » Q- You had confidence in his ability > A. Yes. -^ ' Q. What do you mean by the word " nhiUf .> • , . A. Bein, .b,e ,„ ,„ „„,; „„. :;'^. •'»'■"' ■■. -h,. ,„..„„„ , Q- With whom ? A. With the Government. Q. Well, „„„, .„ ,.„„, „„„„,^^^ .;"« '■'* '-0 far, I think. ¥- 96 C. .V. Armstrong iilil «*s; Q. Well, pretty near? A. Well. I am not. a judge of how near he might get to it, Q. I Wiint you to biwe your answer upon vou: owu experience '' A. Well, iu my previous experience, I had a«ked him to do nothing that was not reasonable, and he w.is alway.s able to accomplish whatever I wanted Q Did you infer from this tliat it was necessary to secure Mr. Pacaud's services in order to get horn the Government a thing that was reasonable? A. He could do it quicker and more satiBfactorily than I could Q If thos.| things were reasonable, why could you not get them from the Government as wt'li as Mr. Paciiud ? A. There are lots of reasonable things which take a Jon- time to get through with the Government. * >■ ■ mo Q. He generally rushed things right through? A. Well, very promptly. $100?ooT" '''"'* ^'^ ^""^ ^^^ '^' ««'i'»'^te of his .services when you promised him the A I understood the basis that Mr. MacDonald was worki tig on wa8$75,000; andlsimnlvr Mked him to carry on the business for me on the same basis as he would have done it for Mr. MacDonald. Q. You went one better? A. I found I had tt. go one better. Q. Now, in j-our other dealings with Mr. Pacaud which you have just mentioned waa there any scale ot prices between you and him for hU negotiations with the Government or influence with the Government ? -"cuv undettook^'^'^"'"'''''''^^°^ ^"°^' ""^ *^'" ^ ""'^'^' "^'^^^ ^'^^ ^*'" *"°'" whatever he Q. You had an agreement with him every time ? actions ^°* ^""^^^ *'™^' ^"' ^''"'^*'™^^ = °°« arrangement might cover a good many trans- Q. Had you anything to do with him before this in connection with getting subsidies thL sum ofVlmo ?'"'' "'' ^""""'^ "'^""'^ """ *° '"^*^' ^"^ "^'^ *"^ P«y •^^ A. Well, he had attended to the collection of subsidies for me before. Q. Did he get paid for that ? A. He got paid, yes. Q. Would you have got the subsidies from the Government if you had not naid Mr Pacaud? *^ « »»i. A. Possibly I would have got them, but I would have had to wait longer for them Q. You would have had to wait very long? A. I don't say very long ? By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. You stated that you were ready to receive $75,000 from the old company in settle- ment of your claim, but that when the new syndicate came to be formed the position of affairs whs so much better that your demand became $175,000. Is that correct ' A. Yes. sir. Q. I do not understand how you improved your position at all, when, at the same time you were agreeing to give $100,000 to Mr. Pacaud ? ' •^'■' G. N. Armstrong Jised him the whatever he many trans- Q. That would hav. made a dift- ''""''^ '^'*^« A. Yes. ® " '^'fterence of «25,000 ? tl>e payment was nfader' ^^"'^^"^^ ^^^ ^^^^y would he in a position to deal with A. Unless I paui Mr. Pacaud. Ry Hon. Mr. Irvine ;— Q- Did Mr. PacaiiH fv> . •'• for your success f '"'' '" ""^ ^^^ *° ""^er.tand that his emplovmen. tel.gr.phTe",trepJ«lul;'"J°"J'"' '""^"8 ">• 'rain ,i s, j<,h„. ^ Q- What induced von tr. 98 C. N. Armstronp^ have aheady stated, it was done in his office— in a back room of the office of " L'Electeur " » A. Yes. Q. There was some doubt as to the way the cheques were drawn. Do you not remem- ber that Mr. Langelier got the bank cheques from Mr. Pacaud and filled them up there? A. No, I do not. Q. You looked upon the details as unimportant, and they were not impressed u|ion your mind at all? A. No. A. I believe, Mr. Armstrong, you are not a political supporter of the present Local Government ? A. No, sir. Q. Are you not connected with a newspaper in Montreal, which is very strongly opposed to them ? A. I have a slight connection with that paper so far. Q. In these dealings which you have had with Mr. Pacaud, have you had or have you now any reason to complain, from your own point of view, of the manner in which he acted towards you ? A. No, sir, he always carried out what he agreed to do satisfactorily. By Mr. BHque : — Q. You have stated, Mr. Armstrong, that Mr. Pacaud told you he had to account to Mr. Mercier. Where did he tell you that and when ? A. Well, that was in connection with something that had nothing at all to do with this Baie des Chaleurs matter. Q. But will you say when he did tell you that, anyway ? A. I think it was some time in the month of June. Q. Of this year? A. Yes. 0. And you say it had no connection whatever with this Baie des Chaleurs matter? A. I say it was not in connection with that. Q. Who was present when he told you that ? A. There was nobody present. Q. Where was it ? A. It was in the rotunda of the Windsor Hotel, but not to my knowledge. Q. In Montreal ? A. In Montreal. Q. Was it in the evening or morning ? Do you remember what time of day it was ? A. Probably it was in the evening, but I would not be sure. It is more likely to be in the evening. Q. What had this interview reference to between you and Mr. Pacaud ? A. It was with reference to some financial arrangements in connection with another transaction ; it had nothing whatever to do with the Baie des Chaleurs matter. By Mr Casgrain : — Q. When Mr. Pacaud made this statement to you, is it not a fact that he stated that he had to render an account of the $100,000 of the Baie de- tiating with the syndicate in queition to get them to take hold of the road, to reorganize the company and to continue the works which had been commenced and on account of which a large sum of money had already been expended. Hon. Mr. Justice Jettk : We allow the question. The Witness :— As I have just stated, I left the parish in the fall of eighteen hundred and ninety (1890) ; Jitv. Antoine P. Birubd r Bonavemure our county ? inety (1890) ; 101 a. J,iiT ''- ^-'^ "^--^ - ^^- r.U orei^heeen ei.Myniue (,889, when they were l^'-'^-^P^^^^^ Hver. the Grand Caacape- Some works had been perfonned o sec bnVb,?' ''' T'"" '" •''••°" «« ^^ey n o w a^ n^nrv.: ^.""''^ <'""ng the nionth of a",^ 1"^; !''^*-« ^a-apedia rivers ; the m n no pHjnient, to my knowledge, had been Si "7 ®^P't l'^' «"f' a part of October and A.- ucrris axx^ reS;, r;^V"" '"^ ■"™ "•■« »•« -- ' Q. Rpspecting the Company ? A. One of considerable discontent. Q. Was there considerable agitation ? A. There was consideral,le agitation. ,9". ^^'^ yo" communicate with tb« r„„ cond.t.on of the works ? '^ "'" Government at different times respecting th A. lliere had been petitions • T sitrnn^ respectmg the road m question ? «,.i' HMi i M 102 Reo. Anloine P. Berubi road^; ^"r *'•■^^''" Pff '^"« «'«« to ^"'^"ce the Government to take possession of the road oi to reorganize another co.npany and cancel the charter of the old company ' petitton^i;- Jhere^werri^Ty''^^ '"""' ^'^ ''^'''^^ *^«^^ ^ ^^^ "" '^"-■-'^- °^ --'^ dated thTfiffrM'^' n«on? ''*?" number iK) B to an order of the Legislative Assembly dated the filth March (1890) eighteen hundred and ninety signed by Chs. A E Gagnon, A. Yes, sir, that letter comes from me. they^corTec'tV^' ^^'*' mentioned in that letter to your knowledge at the time, and were A. Yes, sir, so far as I know them. Q. Will you read this letter, if you please. ' A. Here it is Municipality of New-Eichmond, -, „ Cascapedia, Slut October 1889. IHE Honorable Honors Meroier Prime Minister of the Pfovince of Quebec Quebec. Sir, Mr Langelier, the special commissioner terminated his inquiry into the claims aeainst ^tTj^Tl'l^^^^^^ ^-^ yesterday. 'hIs repol^rwre'^ot witness of tr f V" ^-"^^^^^^'^ to q'>*'ify- ^ Pa-lsh priest, a continued and grieved posTt on t iJZftl '"' '''"t- ' '"'^ *'^ ''''''' ''' ^^•^P''^^'"^ to you our distressing of fhl r. \ t ."Z P"""^'"- ^'"""« "^^ '^t five yeara since the commencement of the wo, k upon this road, .he story of our cusappointments repeats itself fromTearto^^ar m an inooasmg ratio. In spite of the deceptions of the past, the know elgeTtl generous 8Tbstrr„7 r'; "^""^ ««— «"t had accorded to the Company last spring, by giv"g the Re ,o^s HroTr r T *° f'^ "PP^'' '''''"'' "'■ '''' ™'^^' ^^'^^ raised our'hopes.' mished nn w-t i ^^^^h^veek that work would begin the following week and would be pushed on with vigor, kept the people on the look-out during the whole of the first nart of the summer. Every one counted upon it. both to obtain wofk and to d no e of he LJ t^Xstarvinrnlmii;! " ' '^'"'"'^'^^ '''''''''''' ''^•- ^'^^^ *" ''" -' ^'^ t^- «"PPort of At ia.t, in the month of August, the works were commenced ; the people fell to with so.d at e.Yurbitant prices ; tor instance very common flour, cost «7..50 per barrel nork Xn there was any, 14 to locents per pound. In addition to this the works verslSi^ com.nencement of October, exactly when small farmers would hi been bloto e^- aTp Jed" ?h ''-'' T'-''^'' '- ^-^'*- «' eLlism;:r: o;^yt rch';: are placed. The accounts are unsettled and legal proceedings are pouring in u^on us ■Rev. Antoine P. Birubi ssion of the any? edge of such ve Assembly L. E. Gagnori) )f that return e, and were er 1889. inis against will expose and grieved ■ distressing mencement year to year le generous giving the lopes. d would be irst part of of the few who where B from the support of 3II to, with 1 advances ed in that provisions lings were )ork, when ped in the to earn ain which receive a which we 1 us. no way bound at the present t ml . " ^^'^^'^''^ understand that your fiol ? °"' !■• While your worthv Cn ■ • of the .uMdv, Sh^' ff • '"• "»»'• »™ most mlTSl^J'^ .""'' "" >»«»■■" I have the honor to be, Sir Your most obedient servant, (Signed) A.P.BERUB6, Q- You are no longer in the locality ? A. Uu, no longer in the locality, I heard of it only. Mr. Riojiel :■— questions to the witness. ''"'' ""'^'^ ''*»« J'"*' ""ishea, I wish to W'y.LortZ Hon. Mr. Justice JettS :~~ You may do so. ;f ^1 1 if 104 Hev. Antoine P. B6rub6 By Mr. Riopel :— ■ o Sn °^"" ^^^^'^^ "S*^*'^^" ^""dred and eighty nine Q. Will you state where that letter waa written -^ A. At Cascapedia, New-Richmond. wroteit'r "'"''" '* "" °*' ^""'- °^" -°'^- - -* the suggestion of others that you A. My own. or wSh Ty peltlrmtfotVbTtr;^"^'^"" "'^^ "^"^ ™^'"»'- ^'^'"^^ «-™t A. I had no other Zr^ ' Government to attend to these matters ? Minister. '' correspondence except that which is set out here with the Prime Q. You liad no verbal communication either '' A. Not that I remember. pany'*-c!r;;:utt;te\rtr^^^^^^^ t' "''"?'^^"^ ^^^-"^^ *'^— had not been paid ? knowledge there were claims against the company which county wt; LZoTetlkld'ofT'^"'' ' "T ^'" *°«^ "^« ^-^ *^<^ '*• I'^ ^^^^ A. I never saw those contracte. as i^^^Z^:^' *'^* ^^- ^"^^^-^-^ '-^ the completion Of the sixty miles A. It is to ray knowledge that Mr. MacFarlane worked on the Western section Q. It IS to your knowledge that he had charge of the road ■> A. 1 saw him working on it. A. I cann,.t say if it was by Mr. MacFarlane or bv others. MacFarlane? majority oi these claims were not against Mr. A. At the time, Mr. Langelier's report had not been published Q. But now? repoftnor.:*''^''™^' ' *'"' ' "" '''"^^ — '- the date of Mr. Langelier's cont?actT;r '"' '"™''' ^^'' ""'' ""'■ I-g^"er a certain sum that was due by the A. Yes, Sir. A. Not to myself. Hev. Antoine P. B6rvb4 105 A. Yes. ^ "> ' J «» "lean the contractors, do you not^ Q. W .„„ ev» .pp„ fc„„, .„ ,,^ ^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^ Q. Do you not think that it « you had their 6o„s ? ' ^"^ '« ^^e contractors that you should have applied when A. I upp ,ed to the contractors. ^ A. We presumed this : We knew tl,uf *. *- -^ ' oi me . y- Now, you stated a moment Ln thai .i maj say that there was a^ainat »>,« Q- vou too. p.„ i„ , ,.„„„r;";';„';::7""^' '■— « »m ....... o"""''''*"""""'"!"'"""" "■«"'» write Q. V ou did not spoak ? A. In what sense? Q- Against the company or a^in^f *u A T , •' "'B'''"^8tthememl)PiHnf*i,„ A. r may have exnres90fl m,- •• ™"^'* °'*"e company ? -adidnotgivesatisCr ?eSr;;ltss^^^^^^ ^^ -^"^ -'ch too s,ow,y Q- Now. do you know when the work, cm tl '""°" '* '''''"■'^^"* *''"«»• ^ A. r cannot exactly say • the dat.T . "'"''^^ ^"'^ commenced ? -n^y W,ed.e : it oomm-^nc^et ts^^r ^ (JS; "^^ ^ '-^'•-^een tothehest Q. The construction commenced in flSSfi) ^. / *'^^'^"'^'"««" ^^"ndred and eighty-six ,,J: Thorewassomeworkdone bel sg! \ " '""""' "^^ «'^'h^^-- (1885) eighteen h-.ndred and eightj-te ^''''^ "«"^-" •-'"^-'J and eighty six. I think, in 106 Rev. Antoine P. B6rub6 six. 2 iUo >?u k oTedi ^""^^^^ '; (^«««) «-^h*-n hundred and eighty- is it to you Anowledl tlfat^^u^^^^^^^^^^ '^'T ""'''7 -"«*"-'-« wa. reacled'? place the enterpn.e I a positttbrsrceSu'rrSo:" ''" '^" ' ^^ "^^^^^^^ ^« Q. Do you know the';auo3p?tX '^ ' ''' '''"' '^'"^^ --^ is commenced. A. I know that steps were taken A. ^:z:^:zv^^'^-^-'' *^--^- - ^^--^ -^-pHse . were1he''p:rt'"oVttreXnH!:''T'r ^«^' --" *^« ?-«"« who hundred and eigh.v-nine?' ""' "^" ^^'■""' '* "" "^ ^° J»"« (is'^) eighteen ourptp?e:o^';tlhCtr^^^^^^^^ -d who gave postponed iro.n' dafe T date an n "e tl '^n Thos^^ T' ^"'^ *^^* ^^'^^ ^^ charlatans. ^ °"' ^"^^^^ ^"^^ the persons I meant by il'donTr^eXtr^^^^ A. 'CoCeLr""^ " "^ ^°'""" ^^^'^ ^°" ^^'^ *« --" ^^ *^^* ^ ente?pn":'th:t^:Tr^; Ttl^:n'''T ^^r^""^ ^^^P^^^^"^' ^'^^ P--*-« o^ the prominent in the matter"? " """^ ""'"''' '"°^' particularly, as we were specially A. I remember nothing in particular. themterpri,ef """"^ °'»"'°">P">'°" "'"-e conducta„d .c. of the promoter, of which .L;:!';:;^''™:: ■Sot'"''''' '"■"' ""• "'""'"'^ """ *• ™«™- - y«ur*»Shio':i7L',?.ir;t;.rir'L'"'^^^^^ the promoter, of Ihe eolerpri.e ' ^ '^ "^ °'°" "'■"" "" «»"''>'«' <« »«" »f the t^n-vzz:z it *„':;: :Ser.err:„7i-s'r™r'""' i:"rv- enterprit^e was carried on. seneraiiy witn the manner m which the Q. Please state precisely now in what the dissatisfaction consisted » A, The diHsatisfaction, I stated it a short timp nan tk understood that large subsidies had been vo .H T, T' ^ «"'«'P"se was begun. We work done there were large anl'r TetrtL: ^^^ materials, and that is what caused thVdiscontent. '" '"' P"'"''" '^^^ ""PP^^* Q. luyouropinion, then, the construction of sixtv miio- «f „„ i -.u. , was not satisfactory ? is that it ? ^ * "^ '"'^'^ .^'*^'" *^»™e years ed and eighty- was reached ? I necessary to f suppose it is 3 commenced. persons who 89) eighteen d who gave at work was I meant by county ? lat? lotnrs of the ire specially hrysostdnao and outside ■omoters of manner in )lic, among or acts of t knowing which the gun. We n the little > supplied iree years Hev. Antoine P. Birubi A. I do „„. l„; J **" ' ™" »■•"' "" "« l".w m»y ' h to take y did not ^v. Antoine P. Btmbi .«.„„. ■«•> h.™ charge., .™„^ .oLew'Sl:;., ^^SL A. I do not remember. . ^^^ Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .•_ to cover all misdeeds all thJ ^'^" ^°"« "^^d the word Vn^^,''*. *^^ "'^ ^om- commenced and we wil?f i . "*""« "^ the companv if «, ™^"^'' ^^at if an Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— you iTain'ed your point' ^0'"'' 5" '''^P^'' ^ t'^^'^k a, I told vou . . • in the popular vlw th^t iT wlTv,'' '" ''^'''''^' •'««^»«e^t is elbiLV. JV''"'' '*^°' '^at If Your Honours will allow me Isuf.^ the accusations which wpr« h.^. u. . *"^ * moment ago that T «,; u ^ - .Hen. x.e . ., ;r.tt;:,xr :i;'".::r -"--p^- ^^^^^^^^^^ lion. l\Tr Ttiats.- T.... 5'"'"™"--^"^"->.^"'^^ mat It has gone lar Mr. Riopel:— !*-' 110 Eev. Antoine P. B6rabi By Mr. Riopel: — Hon. Mr Justice Jem :— We do not think we can allow that question, it would take us too far. Mr. Riopel : — STrisxr"""" ''"" »"*"«• ^— ."■«.«/!. -rrr,' Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— We take the letter and the evidence as they are. Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— The witness told you that the expressions were not addressed to you. Mr. Riopel ;— Yes. But the question which I now put When he statPH "Wt ri,i „r tv, what does that mean " Whv e-Pt r\,\ «»• Tk ■?■ • ^® "'^ °^ *^^ company " more than that That iZ slates tha i tl. nT'"''' ! '' 1' T^ ''*"""•* ' «"* '^«'« ^• not even complied withrcSonso^ rcrr.<\?i:?afdlltr"''°' "^ '" fulfilled the conditions of its charter and it would be better ton .vf ^^"^ ^"" "°* place, composed of men of integrity and ndus v '' Can wp .lE T^"" ""'"•^"^ '"^ ^^^ ITon. Jfr. Justice Jetti ;— Rev. Cypritn Larnvie rsons of your e autumn of membera of ind that you •educed and its contents, ' before the jompany " ut there ig which has ly has not wny in its }n to pass nt to state ng at that itrophe of ve shoul i luestiom A oXSr "■" ^-"'"^ *"■ '-'"v^ or , *4,' For how long ? A. For fourteen yeara. 7 "^ Jou live there still ' A. I still live there <^ai?uS:L'r '' "- -'^^ on the line.' of the railwav V A. Yes. • """"^ ^"o^" «« 'he Baie des Q- Since the beginning y A. Yes. ^. At what distance is ha! romTh"'''^"^' ^P'-« -"ed Ireland A. I do n;tTno;;^ '''^- '" "^^* ««««on i« it ? Q. Is it sixty or seventy miles y A. res. Q. How were they recommenced ? W^r. t », A. I saw for myself that therel ^^'^ "^^^ ™en employed » there were more than that. ''' ""''' '''' '-^'^ hundred mener^pLed T Q. You found out that there were four h h . """ *"'^ Q ■ On h" « "^" '^« upper part ''" """'-^ ™- '« your district P -ain^s for some day. wr^e::^'^^ --' ^- ^-^ Parish, some of my paHshione. had -'/■'•. CkMgrain :— We do not object, b«t reallv it .» -.r ! '^spapera... \^^ l\'\ 112 Rev. Cyprien Larrivie Hon. Mr, Justice Jetti :~ He adds that in hi, parish there were some ,vho complained. The WUiiess .-- Some of my parishioners claimed somo Aa^^' ,.,„ '' '-''^imed some days wages, sometime to my knowledge. Hon. Mr. justice Jetti :— As far as possible you must confine vonrHPlf tr^ ^,o • •■ personal knowledge. ^ "'^ *° P'^'^"^ evidence upon facta to your- Mr. Amyot :— My question meant that. It is to his knowledge. By Mr Amyot : — A. I sent one myself. 'c luau . Q. Please take communication of this document wK,vv, ; i original of the petition in question ? ^^^'^^e"* ^^ich .s produced and state if it is the A. Yes, I wrote it myself ? Q. Will you kindly read it ? A. Yes. To His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in Council. May it please Your Honour, »uhX." CnTLi;- ;r^r Ceb*-^ '° ^°^' "■• "^'^-^' ^"--r the company has received a subsidy of $16,000 per S '" ^^'^' *"^°"«^ the JuiMin^oTl^rS^ '"^ •'°'^*"'"*^^ ^^^^"^ ---^« the expenditure occasioned by That the said company has not the necessary means to complete this enterprise • That It IS time that the charter of the present o-m-o,,,. v. ia u '^'^P""® ' your Government can take steps to compllThrraiS on the'cl f r^""/' ' '° *^*^ prosperity of Gu^pesia so much depends ; ^ completion of which the And your petitioners also respectfully set forth : That certain timber limits .known as the Robitaille limifa u^, u. ■ yet been worked ; «ODuaiiie limits, bought since 1873 have uot That the public is obliged to purchase wood for hnJiri;^-. distance, as far as New Brunswick for examZT ^"'^'^'' ** * considerable- Rev. Cyprien Larrivie pledge. acta to your sen hundred id? e if it ia the her electors, al Railway '■ been sua 1, although. laioned by ise ; 1 ; so that (vhich the have not liderable- — • J I A Tliat the workiniroftho» ,• • ' ^^^^'''^'^'^'^^^======.— ~^ . TJierelort. we beg Your Hn '^^'' ''monopolies. ^^'^^ ^°'» Honour as to ^"J your petitioners wii] eve . ^'"^- ''^"'^ "'^ ^»>«^t«r oj p..„ , . ^^^^ pray: f^Pebiac, December 2nd, 1890 (Signed) Cyp. LamV^e, Paris), n • . J C LeBontiHier N Renoiif J C LeQuesne John Bossy W G Bisson D Bisson CharIe,LeGa„ai, Alias Prevoat OswHJd Albert Bruno LeBJancjr Walter LeBrocq BronoLeBlancanr John Whittom Emmanuel LeBlanc Benjamin LeBraaseur John Teenier Isidore Aspirot Michel Horth If urent Holmes Th^ophile Delarosbil Jean Gigufere Pierre Joseph Andr^ Delarosbil "Prre Aspirot Salomon Castilloux DommiqueLoiseljr Jos Anglehart John Huard 8 T|;^«IoreHuard^/,rf,B,„. f^angois Huard ' Joseph Anglehart /&rf,puj,,. I^aurent Loi^el ^"'^'PPe Wm Castilloux Flerant Aspirot Alexis Denis Andr6 Castilloux ^ommique Loisei anr Edouard H(,ard JUurent Huard Moise Huard M'chel Huard AJm^ Holmea Jhi'ip Anglehart fterre Duguay Wm Huard Urb I-eBlanc Jfaxime Joseph Jacques Loiael S^baetien Anecy James Blaia Ambroise LeBrasaeur SJbastien Anecy jr R}>'ippe Loisei ^ H'ppolyte Falham *^- Berthelot Xavier Huard f^l'PP^^Braaaeur J-Bte. Maldimay Germain Blaia John Horth 114 Sev, Cyirrien Larrtvie (Signed j Aai. -^ Porise Hi|ii)ui:t< f/^)-ro8»)il Jean I'ti. Aupit ft Dominique Loisel Jules Aspirct Th6ophile Duguay John Joseph Joseph LeBrusseur R6nii Huard Joseph Uuguay Jules Diignay Narcisse Deliirosbil Wm. Castilloux Moise Deny Andrd Roussy Wm. Loist'l Wm. Joseph Abraham Anglehart Urb. Maldimay Etienue Horth Philippe Joseph Frs. Chrtpa:lo8 Isaac Denys Urbain Muldimay Joseph Fulhen Wm. Chapados Emm. Aspirot Nap. Porise Chrysostdme Castilloux Honors Chapados Clement Holmes John Chapados John Albt.t Philippe Aspirot Philippe Delaroabil Jos. LeBrasseur His Jos. William Loisel Beiijsmin Joseph Jos Duguay Michel LeBrasseur Napoleon As;)iroi Ambroise Alt. Wm LeBnseeii. Benjamin CasuC..?i, Louis N6r6e A.v«' «ii- ■■ David Allain Isaac Aspirot Ja«!«iue8 Lancy Qlave the petition drawn by our Q. Did he say that he received a letter to that effect v A. 1 tio not remember. Q. Ploase say who is that honourable member ? 118 Biv. Cyprien Larrivie Merctr!^"'' '°''"^"" ^"'' *^' ^'^'"™°°«- "» the Local Legislature, the Honourable Mr. in.r thp Ril^r^r,"'^*" •^^'^ '"""f conversation with the Honourable Mr. Mercier respect- ing t^e Baie des Chaleurs Railway before the signature of the document in question ? the p^etition? ^^ '^' ^"gsestion made to you by Mr. Thivierge that you decided to draw up A. He was to draw up one himself and we would all have signed. roa^ i«fL?r^'*'"'*"'''''f'^'^*'''' the company had received «16.000 per mile on the road, IS that to your personal knowledge ? A. No, it is in the reports. Q. In the official reports? A. Also in the correspondence which appeared in the newspapers. A. No.^*"" '""'° *^^ ™^°'"* °*"*^' ^°"- ^'- ^^*'"''' Langeli.r, special commissioner? Q" You wish to say the official report, then ? papet ilThe^Ume.'^^ °*'''*' '^^'""* ""'^ ^"'^^ '^^ correspondence which were in the news- that?he'^;S7i:dte;^^^^^^^^ *'^' *'^* ""™ ^'" ^'^^^^" ^^""-"^ '^""^ ^'^'^ ''^ P-<*' A. No. Q. You do not know if that is correct ' A. No. true?' ^*'" ""'" """' ^^ V^^^^t^A to state undei' oaih that the contents of that letter are A. I ami ready to swear what I saw in the correspondence at the time?' of co?refnldlIpTn ?f '"' ^^^""^"ts, I do not speak of the report of the'commissioner or 01 correspondence in the newspaper., but you do not know in an official manner whether that sum was paid to the company, sixteen thousand dollai^ per mile ? A. I do not say that. Q. You cannot say it ? th«t t ^ ^"^ °°f """^ ,'^/* '''^ ""'"P*"^ '"""'^^ ''^'^^"" thousand dollars per mile, but I say that my own knowledge, acquired either from the official documents or public reoo ts that I ascertained that it had a right to receive sixteen thousand doHars pe'r m^e ? ' y. loustate that you had ascertained that? Q. Ill documents, it seems to me, that had been placed at my disposal A. ProVably "^ '""^«P°"^^'"^^ >" ^he newspapers and reports outside of official reports ? company r ''"" ^'^^""'"^ '" "'^'" ^""'"'"^ '^"^ '^"^ «"™ '""^^ ^'^'^ ^een paid to the A. I do not know. «i.tpl\?^' declaration that is contained in the petition that the company has drawn knowledge""' '" """'' ""'" ^'^ ^^"P''"^ '""^ ^^^'"^ Is it to you". A. I state in the petition Q. Answer my question ? A. No, I did not see it. Rev. Cyprien Larriv€e \\9 at the time. ^'''^- ^ '^'^ "°* ^'tness the payments nor see the receipt Son. Mr. Justice Jem :~ .i^ IZtZtSiyZll:^^^^"-:'' "" '"'"''™ •"■'* ™ P""n'ed, 1, who Mr. Riopel ;— I wish to have entered in the proceedings Hon. Mr. Justice Baby .-— , These things are presumed to be made in good faith. -' Mr. Riopel :-~ •By Mr. Ampot ;— Q. Y^. ...« .„.. ,o„ received .his ™g^u„ ,„, „„ ^,^^^ „^ ^^.^.^^^ ^ A. No, not at all. -.ouS h"°r:^r "-" '" "■"' '■"'^' '• ™ —^"l^. the ...in, «.., „, ^^ A. Yes. Q. And you understood that it was also the wi.h ««• the county and of the country ? ^"^ °^ ^°"'" '"e'nber, in the interest of A. Yes. And further the deponent saith not. 120 Louis CripavU say lOUIS CRfiPAULT, of New Eichmond, physician, being duly sworn doth depose and {.This uitneis is examined at Mr. Biique's special request.) By Mr. BHque :— A. Yes. Q. You were mayor of the place stated I believe ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. In what state wa« the construction of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway v A In what year ? ^ ' Q. In eighteen hundred and eighty-nine ? A. It was languishing at the time.' Q. The works were stopped ? A. More than stopped, that is to say, they were not going on. Q. And in eighteen hundred and ninety ? A. They were completely stopped. Q. Had the men been paid ? A. No, Sir, many complained. Q. Had the lands taken for the road been paid for ? A. No, Sir, some had been paid for, not all. Q. There were a great many not paid for ? A. Many were not paid for. Q. Do you know of a strike that took place ? A. Yes, Sir, at Maria. Q. Why, for what reason ? time^* ^'"''"'' '^' '"'" ""*"'"* *" ^' ^^''^ ^"'^ '"''^ ""* ■■ '^'^ ^^^ t'^^" waiting a long Q. Had gn^at elTorts been made to have these men paid. A. No, Sir ; not by the old company. Q^I a..k y„u il the people to whom money was owing or did you on their behalf make any effort to get them paid by the company ? s j' on men oenaii, make A. Tliere had been efforts on tlie part of the clergy. Q. Did you join in these efforts ? A. No Sir. «fflc?;of';;',c o'ltztT? '■ "" """ ''"'"' "'"- -"'« '» "■' «<-"-»'• " •■> »".v A. No Sir. Q. Did you not write to the government a letter representing the state of affnir. ar,H wdl you Stat, of this letter whether the twenty eighth October ei,\ en hu dred and l"v nme winch ,s now shown to you is a copy of the letter which you wrote ? ^ ^ A. Will you read it. •Sir, Louis CrfioauH CH«,,.. u»„,„„, a,,^ «™-K.CK„„»„, 08„ October, 1,89. •SlH, Wit Jc^:™£Sr^— s::tsnr ^ '-' '^'^ ^'^i— eeeea In my capacity of mayor of New-Richln , Jb .t Ii? ' ^"'^ ''" ^^^'^'^''^ K'^^'^^y- Comparatively large amounts are dTe o V^nl -? i^""' '^' ''"'"''°" '" '^^ P°'"*- and eub-contraotors have disappeared anTare a mttf'n' "vumopality ; as the contractors persons are really i„ want. \Vinter is TnnrL .. ^possible to Hnd, it follows that many upor the payment of their wag sfb/thoXXie^ these unfortunate laborers S add that many <.f them have already diXntedH T''" ^"'''''°''' ' ^^^y even not paid I am afraid that thev will t unable to 1 "°^" ^ *''*' "''^^^^ ^"^ >'" '4 are along the const. ' "^^ '"""^'^ *° S^t any further credit from the merchants claims^ypaTrenfo;roale'sl;rto"'£cl^^ ''°"'^ ^"•i"''-^ '"'o these cnrcumst^ances are exceptional, legal fom.iiUerr.ht L T ' ^'i' °''^^ ^"'^ ^"d' «»« *he these unortunate victims of Hdislmnestsm^'wlfiei^^ "'^'' *« «««•«* Under the circumstances the Government mLh/ t?™'''° ''''^''''^«^«°""t'y- amoun of work done on the railway and pay ^LZh "'"/.J'' '"^'"^^' ^« estimate the proportion to the work. ^ ^ ^ *^^ P"*'""" of the subsidy actually earned in I would therefore beg vou to ask fn.- f„..fv, • no. allow ,o„ .» i„,„i,, f„.„ ,CZ; ittmtTTZ'" '"' "'- •™" "" ^-"<"> I remain, Your obedient servant, LOUIS CREPEAULT, Mayor of New Richmond. Q. This is it. addrte^t" t Chs Ingeh': 'ZSrf "' •^':'°^^^- -'^^'t-n hundred and eighty-nine -truetiouoftheBaiedosClfat:;r:w:Sr;^^^^ letter is a copy of the letter which I wrote a ho V ^1' ""''^ *° "'"' ^ ^'^^'^^e that, that Q. U^e .e .cts mentioned in ^^^^ ^ k^wl^f'^^" Q. In what state are the works on the railway now i„ . A. There ha. been omf o" . nt I. u" "^^'''^ ^^"^^ ^^ '^-'-^^ ? done but not completed. ' ''" "^""^ "" '''« '^™"ty miles. Eighteen miles are Q. Is the grading finished ? tl' 4 122 Louis CrepauU A. Not completely finished. Q. What remains to be done ? to pats t?uTeThfstt"eh'' '""'"'' ''^^' ^"^* "^'^ '^"^ ''""^"^ ^"^ ^ '« '^"^ "- -- Q. Have tlie works been puslied with vigor since the month of August ? ' Q. How many Dersons worked there since the month of August ? A. Yes, five or six hundred men. Q. They have been promptly paid ? A. Yes. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. When did the works begin ? A. The works of the railway. Q. The works which you have just spoken ? A. In the beginning of August. Q. Not before ? A. No. By Mr. Riopel .-— >nf. ^' ^'"•' P'^P*"'* ^''^ you say whether you applied to the company ; you say in vour letter, which ha. just been read that the company cannot be found, fs that tme? "^ A. We did not very well know where the company wa« A. No^"* "^^ ^^'^ "'*" ^^ "'^*- ^^''^ ^°" '""" *^" '*^*"*« incorporating that company ? Hon. Mr. Justice Jptti : It is not the company whicb cannot be found it is the contractoiB and subcontractors., Mr. Riopel :— tioneS!" ''"'' """" '"^ '" * '°^' *""'• ^' '" ^' ' ^^" ^«'"«'"b«^ th« <=«™P-ny wa« men. Hon. Mr. Jmtice Jetti. of fbl'l^r^-^-^^r!^*'"?'^"''^ struck me : "Comparatively lat^e amounts are due to people ^mpoSe totd' '' " "" ""^"^"'" ^"' -''-"*-*- havedisa^pearMandara aTZlt Mr. Riopel : — I wish to ask the witness if he ever applied to the company. By Mr. Riopel:— Q. Did you ever apply to the company respecting these claims. A. JNo, sir. Q. Had you seen Mr. Langelier before writing this letter? A. No sir, I may have seen him but... Q. Where was Mr. Langelier on the twenty eighth of October. Imuis Cripault A. 1 do not remember. A TZ ^Vk "'' '"""''' «f Bonaventure' Q- Had you any correapondence with him? Q. Do you swear that? A. No. I ^ you any .„„e,p„„„e„„e *h Mr. Ch,y.««,e Ungelle,. Q- None ? A. Respecting these claims? No And further the deponent saith not. 124 Franfois Dion ( Thi, mtnesB is examined at Mr. Amyot's special request.) By Mr Amyot ;— Q. What is your name ? A. Francnia Dion. Q- Of wliat place ? A. Of St. Charles deCapIan. Q. How long have you lived there? A. For the past thirty one years. A Y° 8 ^"^^ ^^^" '"*^°'" °^ '^® municipality ? Q. You are mayor still ? A. Yes, for the past eighteen years. Railly wllrth^v w'r." T"' T^''^l ""'' ''^ ^^'•'^^ °" *h« '-■"« «f tbe Baie des Chaleurs aiiwa> When the% were stopped in eighteen hundred and eighty nine ? A. rhe works were languisliing. Q. During how long had thoy languished ? general cry^'nStmpTdnr '" ''"' '^^ ''^ ^°"^*'"°^'«° ^^ the old company, it was the Q. How many years had this lasted ? A. I think it cornmenced in eighteen hundred and eighty six. ceasS? '"""'""'^"^^"'«'^^^^-"«-hen things were so languishing and they A. Yes Sir. Q. For how long did things remain suspended, up to what date ? A. Up to the month of August eighteen hundred and ninety one. A. There was discontent. Q. General? A. General. Q. Had strikes ever taken place ? Q. Were the persons who worked on the lino paid ' road* «e"'."" '^"°"' """> '""'■""I "- "*' "' W 1>«" Paid ; .he on wh.,.e land .he q. Were the persons who supplied provisions paid ' ^ ^ ' A. No Sir, not all. " Franpois Dion 126. .leJ;d:^:iS,:;^^;^;3'r^^ we. ,«...,, thepeop,e were discontented an^ A. Yes. Q. How are ihey pushed ? -ilef bS:^hrcS!^Tr:f^l,;:sT^^^^^^^^^ ^'^^ ^'^^-^ - ^'-^ - rar as two of twenty „,iles which the conracto?C to ulld Lr?" "''"• !l^^^'^^'^'obetUetenniZ done and the men were all paid la«t Saturday ' """"^"■- "^''^ ^^'^'^'^^ '^ "early all y. bo public opinion is now satisfied ? A. Very well satisfied. Q- Tlie road is making rapid progress ? »«e built . '' "■" ""*« •■»' I a«crtai„ea that th« stone abutment. Government ? ''^®' ' ''K^'" ta^^en up. Did people complain to the coundl.%Zc3,in1o^ffl"^,h^^^^^^^^ l^nowledge. came before the county parsed unanimously wL il^l t ^in'o :1T^^^^^ The petition wL' have a chance if it wished to resume the worClto-.^ .'1 ' °'^ ''"'"^^^^ ^'^""^^ would not be asked for. ^ "' °°'"'' **^*t 'he cancellation of the charter Q. When was that ? O ■ Th?n ';■'•/•* """" ^^^'"^eti"^ of ail the mayoiB. ' A. Yel st. " """ "^^"'"''^ '° '^' Government ? at ont ^eTrelhe* wofkTr""* ^'^ '^"""' *^^ ^'^^^^ o^ the old company if i. .,„,, „,; A. Yes. Q. And the works were not resumed? A. No. Q. It was only in the month of Aueust th«.i th^ ^ A. Yes. august that the works were resumed ? Q. And pushed vigorously ' A. Yes. Q. And public opinion satisfied ? A. Some made some obieotion^ Th^„ „;j .b. old eompany. We w.n. Itve'tbfn'^d tai"'"' *» ^™ "°""'""» '"'-f-ion to ..ilw^aylredZi^r " """•""■ " "" — «-<> »« • Publlc nee«.i., ,„ „„» the A. Yes. A. Yes Sir. If it is necessarv to dvo vm, fnrfv, , . . to give J ou further proof, I myself paid some of th* ' -,f?i 1 ?tf' s 126 Franfois Dion company. I even lent money o^ l^mtytJ T ""tT- '''''''' ""' °'' '''' ^''^-y this was returned to me bv Mr. lLs^L the com ' • ' !''' ""■«'^^«"*«' ^ '^inkanj hundred and ninety, I ui.'de a Dav.net^f commms.oner, and further in March eighteen who could not be paid beli^he; vera 3X0^ T/ """'■^'' '""'''"^ '^ P~ by Mr. Langelier, so I asked the commissioner mIt I "^ ""' "^"""^ '^'*^ '"^"^••y ™^de like three hundred dollars, to poTpe^ZTr^vt^^^J^^^^ '"' ' ^"' *'^™ P'^^'^ ^"'"^"""g return. ^ ^^ '""' '""^ ^'^""^ ' 1"^^ the time bills on Mr. Armstrong's Province op Qi;ebec, Municipality of the County of Bonaventure. New^ctVsl^rttaTotaid'clt'^^^^ month of December eigh "n hrd/^, and ni'eTv"" "' 7 '''''""'^^' ^'^^^^"^'^ ^"^^ ^^ *h« Municipal Code of the Province orOu^hlnf^Lr" °'".'"''^' ""''^ '^^ provisions of the James Enright, mayor ot the mtic p;iity "ol the";" T" 7""* ''^ ^^'•^-' and the following Councillors, WilliZ LeBoutillier F 7"^ -^ "' Port-Daniel-west, of New-Carlisle, Walter C. Ross mav^r of n 1 u"""'' "^-'^'" °'' ^^^^ numicipality mayor of the municipality 7'p™Sbac Fx7h"^? of Hope, Edmcad Legallais, Francois Dion, mayor of 8t Chadefde G.Dirn Nanl^ p ''''''' "' ^°^^ ^-'^el-East, cipality of Hamilton. Ludger Luc.er Lvo n/ fv.^ • ""'""' '"^'''^^ °^" ^^'^ ™""i- mayor of the municipalitv' of Novell, and Slol' TTT''''' "' '''*^'^' ^'«"« ^yr municipality ofCarleton, l^mi^rotrum of hf ''''' ""r'^ ^^''"^'^"' ™^^-«'' «*" '^- Warden of the said Coun y It was ordaTd and r '7T "'"^'^ *^' presidency of the follows : Proposed bv S. L Fauvel Esau ire .7 '"'^ ^^ '"'"'"^'"'^ «^'^« Council, as this Council taking|i;,toconsiTeation^Z2 fin ^^ ^'""^"'^ ^'«"' ^'l"^^^- ^'^^t Eailway Companf" with ^1':^:^^ 't^'^::^^^^^^^ of the " Baie de, Cha.eurs months, with no appearance of their beL 1 ^^''T' ^ '''°''^' "'"^^ *'^« ?««* twelve distress and disappltn 'e7to he Ziorit^ o t. v, V ''^ ''•"''■ '^"'•^' '« *^« «^"«- °*" '""ch to migrate to the United Stat „™ rd/p'on at "^^^^^ that this council in session assembled rlrctf.^i?nJKT ^' " '^''"^'''^'^ ««olved, in Council, that should the ^^'cXTy^^^^^^^^^ works and take measures for the comnletinnnf.^ take immediate steps to resume the this date, then and in that ca t^'^ ancTa mlluh Ch'f ''^ T^'"" '^' ^^^^« ^-- grant it to another Company who will assure and J '^'\^^T''' "' "'" '^'^ ^""'P^"^ ^^d road within the above mention^dlte am ZtTe ^""T '"n'' ^P^^^'^ termination of auch Honor. Mercier, member o "hTs Countv and PrS M? °'^ 'TI'''' '' '""^ «-«"-^'« for presentation to the Lieutenant^oternor in Conr!! ."i ?[ '^' ^'''''''' '''^^'^'<^' tr—tted by the secretary-treasurer oXplS^ ^^.^^ --^-;^;^ True copy, L. P. LEBEL. (Signed) JAMES ENRIGHT, L. P. LEBEL, "'"''*"• > Secretary-Treasurer A, is it. Q. A. council. .Q. ' A. Q. ^ A. ^ Q. 1 A. 1 Q- V A. \ Council 11 By .] rs nf *i,« „ A. Yes, Sir. ' ""^ *="""*>'■ "mentioned therein present ? Q. The resolution is correct A. Yes Sir Tl.nf ;= .\ '"rwaraecl to the Government ? ^.'/ -Vc. Riopel:— Q. And discontinued ahout eighteen hundred and eighty nine ? Q. Will you state what quantity of wo.k had been done at the time " A. Ihere was irom Metapedia to Grand Ca^capediac. Ki. How many miles ? A. Ahout sixty miles. I myself went on the cars. y. ihe road was almost completed ? Of on'- r™\1i3^'l\lVr;:£r''' '■''*""•'"■-'«'''■''''"•»!* .he „„ep.i„,, Q. ™e. w„ ,.„, „„„e „„ .he ..e«„„. .„„ .h. 3i„,„.H .„ „, „„„,,., „„^ ^ Q. ^ U .o,„„r knowledge .h.. „, .K, ,o„a.i„„„a .„„ey, had beeo „„,« , ' rirsij' """' ,""; "" '•'■«''■•'''* '^-i"°o- ^^is?-'" '" *""»" '-I'e' A. :. . «,. .... M. M.ep...r:d~ :: z^t '" "'•' ^'" -- ^ ' A. Secon K yo„ „e«,. I .J,i„k i. l„,ej . „„„p,, „, ^^__,^^ 128 Frnnfots Dion fir.tL!^JTj\"r- 1"""" e^'" resolution adopted by the county council, originated • who firetjii8t8t:irte^no A. Ye.s Sir. Q. Who? us tolind ir^'^ """T " m' ''■'" f "'' ''" *'^' P'°P'^ '^PP''"^ ^" "^' «^«" '■" '''« <^0"ncil, asking som 1 " »f ««ttui, the company to disappear or to continue tl>e worb,, to find om.uuprovement.ortogetthe men paid who were unpaid, who were crying out S hunger and that is to my knowledge. ^'^-'ug out witn Q. That WU8 in eighteen hundred and ninety-one? A. Yea. thpr?h!!?T ^'^^''' ;• ^""""^'^^ ""^ ninety-one, before you had passed that resolution had there been any suggestion on the part of any one ? A. No, not that I know of. Q. Not directly to you ? A. Not that I know of. t AnrbrrJ"'" ^IT '" ""''^'•'''•^"^l that it was the suggestion of the ministers ' A. Al hat I know ot the petition was that wlien I reached the council, Mr. Fauvel showed my tart "''' "' ''' "°"'' ^"^^"^^ ^'^ '" '"^^ -"t-- ^ -^ ye., with a U Q. Did he say what the Government intended to do ' havelhe^roaJ.* ''^ ''' ""'^^ '"'"^"^ *" ''^^''' * ^'""« *° *^^ government ; we wanted to H. % ^- ?" °'""^i.''" ^ "P^^"" '° ^'■- Mercier about the company ; was there any aue.- tion of his intention of making the company disappear ? ' ^ • « ^"^re any ques- A. No, he never spoke to me of making the company disappear. Q. You are very positive of that ? A. From what I remenber the Honourable Mr. Mercier never spoke to me of makine the company disappear, ^ maKing Q You had nothing against the company ? for it^" ^''' """* °"^ *"""' of a claim. I never had anything to do with it and I thank God Q. You had no other reason for working against the company than the public interest » to h± ' ''".^ n° '"*T*- ' '""' '"^"^^ *" th« ^»*«'««t of the public of the munidpal y to help some poor fellows who were in want. municipamy o'clockl. m!"""'""'"" "^'°""'''' ""*" '^' ''°"°^'"« ^^y '^' ^^'^ 0«*ob«' 1891 »t 10 J. B^LANGER, Secretary of the Commission. Pjtov Du I Louu Judge of the «tance Act 54 Th( ninety-t Hon, Ihftvi of the Cor will be tali aiatteiB an such or eu< quently, ur Ifther which may to us in th{ itself. We thii comments r Mr. BH I con8id( *n article w Commission ROYAL COMMISSIOJV _ CANADA, "mej::„l'"'™""'"'°'«*»«' Jtli SITTIHO in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hun, 'Jred and PRESKNT ; THeHonourah,eM.Just.eLo.3-A..^,Pre3,,,,, « <. r'''''-^«^Ncois.GEORQE8 Baby Chakles-Peers Davidson ^on. .Vr. Justice Jem :— (^ommigsionerg. I have noticed that thp I consider Your W p "5 not a regujj^ 130 claim to the amount of the (1298,000) two hundred and ninety eight thousa-.id dollars which were mentioned. I think it is our duty to point out this article to the Commission and to ask that steps be taken, within as short a delay as possible, to have the editor of the Canadien, or the person Avho wrote the article, substantiate the facts mentioned in it. Hon. Mr Justice Jettt : — The remarks which I made referred more especially to that article and we will give an opportunity during the course of the inquiry to the person who wrote it to establish on oath the statements it contains ; he may be examined as a witness. We will interrupt, for a moment, the proof which you have commenced, Mr. B^ique, so as to proceed with the examination of the Clerk of the Senate who is here with all the docu- ments that were produced before the Senate Committee ; when they are placed before the Commission, we may discharge him. awor i A Q A Q. during A. Q- A. Q. A, Q. 1 A. ' Q- ^ A. 1 ExcelJeni Q. h A. Y Q. Is A. It Q. Ar A. So Mr. £, I won! they are n Hon. \ Q. But A. The; tne Commii According ti they Wore ir Q. Can I ttrenow the" A. From tosixty-rtve J deposit them Edouard-J. langeain .^_^^ 181 EDOUABD J. tAWGEVlw P, , . ~ — ^— — ---^ ^yH<^ri.MT.Jn^tictBaby:- Q- Mr. Langevin, you are Clerk of th. ^ A. Yes. Your Honour ^'"'''^' *^ ^ '"intake not " Q.Vo.^were«uoh during last session P N£ na\ 6 southern with you' A, I have them here QHavevo,,,^,^^^^^^^^^.^.^^ Exeetn?;. -'•^^'^«- ^^ ''-.ieions, an. further the copy of the hi,, ^ Q- Have you a complete ,i«t nf .K ''""*^°""' '''^ «« A. Yes. ^ ''' '"■* °' *^°»e exhibits with you. Q- Js it comp,ete ? A. It is comp,ete. Q. Are these exhibits origi„a,« nr i A. Some are origina,s oh '' "^^'^ " "gmais, others are copies. I wou,d suggert that t,ie ethil.Wp K > 182 Edouard-J. Langevin By Hon. Justice Baby : — Q. To whom did you return the other exhibits, designating them one after the other if you however can do so ? A. Exhibits fifty-one a to fifty-one t were returned to Mr. Thorn's attorney. Q. Who is he ? A. Mr. Ferguson, advocate, of Ottawa. Q. Mr. Thom who is mentioned in the bill as being one of the directors or the secre- tary of the new company ? A. Exactly. The exhibits sixty-three, sixty-three a and sixty-six and sixty-seven were returned to Mr. J. C. Laogelier ; but I must say that it was not I who caused them to be returned to Mr. Langelier ; it was Mr. Creighton law clerk and secretary of the committee. Q. J. C. Langelier that is Jean Chrysostdme Langelier ? A. I do not know. Q. Did you return any to other persons ? A. Noi to others. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Mr. Langevin, have you checked over the exhibits in that parcel with the list you have in your hand ? A. Perfectly. I checked them over. Q. You are certain that all the exhibits mentioned in your list, with the exception of those you excepted, are in that parcel? A. To the best of my knowledge I checked them over as being there. And further the witness saith not. ] gel is 1 { £ Q A Q. you li A. Q. A. Q- A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. ^ Railway that tim A. 1 Q. I A. I present c Q. E A. A Q. It A. \ Q. VV company, A. Y, Q. W A. M Q. Wi A. Ye Q. Wf A. Yc Q. Die a satisfactc A. Th» Q. Anc Mr. Ha Q. Tlie: A. Exa" / I Jl! 188 S«lh.., .loch dep™e .„d „ ,""■ "' *'■'■•• *'*.„,, being „„|y ,„„„ ^^^ ,^^ j^^,^ ^^^ By Mr. BHque ;— yo„L°r "'" "" **'" "» C-l-" R.i.w.y Co™p.„y .„,er.. ,K. , ,- ■ A. Ye,, Si, ' ■ ">■ '" "■'''«l> Q- You are a merchant •> A. Yes. I A. .ueh, yo„ h„, e„.,„„. „,.„„„. „^,^ ,^^ __^^^_^^^^__ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^ |. v:sr" "-""""'* P--pi„io., i„...,„,.,_„„,^^, A. ihe works were discontinued. a: ?C:.XtLtiv '£ '--f continued , P« c„n.,«„/ »'««■>'■ '« "P '» *. .in., .h.. .he w„* we„ ,ec„„.e„ee, b, .he A.AZfr.rr*"^"-"— ^'»- I I. « M. «.,.„ „b. now „,e„eea .be wo* ror .be new oo.^„, , Q. When the works wpm A' Q:fet;:b;ret™.S'',''"°"''«"'"^''>''-^oon.„e.„. A. Much so. A YZ't^"""^ "'"' '"''"^ complaints ? A. They complained of delav in ti,« Q.An.i„.beo...™o.,ri;;b.";:^:^»:ie. A. S'ir"'""'^ "■" ">- -"«« w„e no. p.i, , 184 Henry Clapperton y. Are there many persons at work on the road ' did VSr """^ """ '"" "^ '"■^^ •» "°'"' •"' "■« "■= le'." »ho„,d be p.id. A. That IB what was wanted And further the deponent saith not. J] 39 yea] By Q. A, Q.: A. ] Q '. A. ] Q. I A. J Q. T not? A. Y Q. In you reside A. Y( Q. In A. Th pedia. Q. Ab. A. In, Q. Wh A. I kr eighteen hu Q. And A, Agi Q. Wha hundred and road ? A. It wa Q. What A. Tlie li Q. But tf truction of th A. Certai Q. Doyoi A. I kno ment, to both Q. Now wi the summer, a Jean-Franpois Guiti Q- You reside at Maria? ^- Yes, sir. Q- In what county ? A.InthecountyofBonaventure. QYou^are the mayor Of the place, I believe? Q- Have you been mayor r A. No. "^ not? ■A- Yes, sir Q. Abo„. „h., «„. .,„ ,,, Q- Why were the works atonnoW / , '' . A. It„„w.h.UheUb„:Xw T '""""^•'■''"''«°'*™' .■(!hteenhu,,d,edMdewhtvSK "■'"■ •=•■"«• "O'tins went n„ u ■ Q. And were U,e pr t 'C wh^T/'"' "*' ""' •"•" ^^ ' '" '""' A r* „ ^ '"^'^^ respecting that ; "''lat did people generally ask » ^" A. The laborers wished to be paid and they were not " """■""■ •"•' "- - "»^ no, C '^ *' ™^. "o- were .he „„,k. p,„,,, ,„,^ 186 Jean-Iranfois Guiti A. From the date when the works ceased in eighteen hundred and eighty nine ri889y nothzng wa. done nnt.l eighteen hundred and ninety one (1891) this year : the worL were recommenced quite recently by the new company, and they are going on very ^ell Q. At about what time were the works resumed this year ? A. In the beginning of September, I think. Q. Or in the month of August perhaps ? A. Yes, about the end of August. Q. About how many persons have been employed since the end of August ? ■mnAi*^?'' *^f ^\T T^ ^''"" ^^'^^ ^^riAved to six hundred persons; latterly there must have been about four hundred persons employed. Q. The works were pushed with much energy ? A. With much activity ; everyone agrees upon that p<,int. Q. Feeling has gone down ? A. Very satisfied. Q. The people are satisfied ? A. Yes. By Mr. Riopel :— Q. You say Mr. Guit4 that there were many complaints against the company because the Tomprr' "*'' '"' ' '"" "^°" *"^' '' "" *'« ^*'"*^''°^ '" -»>° always'paid and^tt A. We always said the company ; we thought that the company was responsible. Q. Yes, but answer my question, you know that it is the contractor who always paid the company never attended to the payment, is it not so ? ^ ' A. I do not know that. Q. Were you yourself paid by contractor MacFarlane, did you draw money from him ? A. Mr. MacFarlane owed me, for a long time, but I could not get paid ; it was the Government that paid, it was Mr. Langelier. . " was ine Q. Out of what money ? A. I do not know what money ; I got money. Q. You do not know that it was out of money which had been transferred to nav MacFarlaiie's debts out of the subsidy that had been transferred to pay mX Ws tht i/ r th*^* . f at ^^ P«i^l to you was paid out of the Quebec subsidy L that It wa« the money which had been transferred to pay the works of MacFarS' A. I knew that it was money from the subsidies of the Province of Quebec Q. Did you not know that that money from the subsidies was transferrer! to Mr MacFarlane and that Mr. MacFarlane had a right to those subsidies ? A. I knew nothing of it. Q. Now did you draw money from MacParlane's sub-contractore ?' A. Yes. Q. Did you draw any money from the company ? A. I drew some from younself, Mr. Manager ; when you paid me for the right of way. Q Were r A Q. A. Q. A. Q. notify t A. Q. '. A. ■ Ql A. ? Q. V A. J Q. D A. Y Q. Is would StT him the n A.I, Q. Ar A. Jui some for a Q. Do A. Id( Q. Sin( A. Idc Q. You hundred an A. AH t of way. Q. They A. They remember tih ment of this paid. Q. Is it r be made. Is that Mr. Arm A. The V, there only reti Was wanting. Q- That w A. Since e A- ^o. I for one r H. , , ^'*"''*' '^'^ Maria Q. You are not^aiJ'" ""' ' ^" ^°" "^-"^ "then,. A. No. Q- For what part ' Q- The new companv ' A. Yes. "^ • Q- Not the old one •' A. No. Q-l8ittoyourknowl»^ *u '''^"^^t of way was paid for, A. I do not know. ^ '''"' ^*^« ^^e" Paid recently ? Q. Since a year ? A. I do not attend to that of way. "^ '^"^ the school commissioners were naiH O Th P "^ recently for a rijrht y. They were paid ? * A. They were paid recenth- f^ • . Q- Is It not trup Mr Giiit4 tu , u there only remainnd tL * ^"-^^ been all madn ■ fj, urea and eighty-nme (1889). "'*-Kil'„-'Mlfia,t. ,v,^^ 188 Jean- Fran fois Guiti where there wa^VorTtharw^idrdto^.-Z^n' ^''^ " ''' '""' °' '''^"^' who have not been paid for the right of way ? ''' "'* *'" *° ^°"'' ''"°'" "^'^^^ ^ A, I do not know the number youLwel?.ta":ror^^^^^^^ "--^"^ -^° -- -* P-^-aa A. I heard that Mr XrT T "^"^^^^e^^ ^ "foment ago, Mr. McDonald ? . To vour Wnoli H ? f ^r- ^"'"^'■' *^^ M"*"^' *^*d not been paid. year?;h!: fe not" ''' ""'■ ^^*''" ^^ ^'^^ ^-" ^^^^ - *»>« United States for several A. Yes. A ^illZ^ ^possible to settle with him in his absence ? withfn^woy:!':."" "'"""''' '^" "'"^ ^^ "- •^»'«-' aadhe-etarnedsomeyea«ago, and p;eSou!ly T '" ^'^^ "^""^''^ ^^ ^^«* **«'« ^^ (1889) eighteen ^=n^d.•ed and eighty nine You «rA' 7" '"•*'""'' *° "*«^'«"«" hundred and eighty-nina. Vi- lou are not positive, are you ? » J " 'c- A. I am almost certain. you2a^'2ii:s^r:^;:i-:4s s;s?-- ^^ - — --- -hat the sciSmmiLtrerrorrri:! *'^ ""^^"^' "'° ^^ ^^""^'^ ^^- «>°P^> - ^^-'^ of Q. Outside of this right of way, for a claim ? A. No. And further the deponent saith lu.t. £1 Quebec By Q. A. the H.ji ninety o " To Hoi "Sir, "Wo Railway, the manaj complete I Metapedia " For 1 shall ^ay tl " 1. n its amendit earned ; " 2. Th sec. 1, Bub-8: and accepte " 3. To granted by i and the proc vileged clain against the C ofall theclai go to the nev " The sal A. M. Thorn, ment for that shall be paid \ Commissionei certificate and arbitration an be paid by the By Mr. Justice Baby :~ Q- You have various documents to produce ' " To Hon. P. GARNEAt;, " '^"^^""' '''^ ^P"'' ^««'- CommUdoner of Public Works ^ and Premier ad itUenm. "Sir, Metapedm to Paspebiac, and thence'^tf Ga f Z",""" '''°^^ '''' ^ist December. 1§92 from .~..,'uSSfjt.*^.^™,*J™'l?^ "■» ■•••«» on.., .e„i„„, 54 Vic. ch 88 .^K^:CtXtrS:rn*^ .pp„.e, „„„„„,, „^ i»ir. inom tails to appoint an li a I' r k 1 140 Ernest Oagnon thP rnt' ^ «"'''^"'f° '*'«* they will go on with the works, build, c >mplete and run the road offi?eSrrdthr"?^f^*'^?r'"^ amount o?h 1 f u ''°"''''' (^^OO-OOO-CO), which shall be exchanged for an equal remproLrto wl''' '""' °' '""^ amount and value in case the'company wS »ecu"f;ri eu 3o/ it r"!,-"'^ "P''^'^^ ^^ "^'^ "*^^-' - other satisfactoy back tL hnnH Tvf' ' "^ d'stmctly understood that the Company will be handed of Jhetadt PasXc! """"'' ^ ' '^'"^*^'' ''^ *'^ """^P'^'^^" and'sulcient equipmtt po.ed ^fol W- W ' p'"™ °^ the Company under the new organization shall be com- rMtteL T^i'w'nr^"^'''' °^°'^''--^= J-PDawe8,ofLaohine; Alexander Ewing. persZTot iz:,VTz:Z2T' ' ^-^^-^ ^- ^^- °^^^-*-^'' -^ *--»^- Cai,clD^dil^^hi''r'' '"'"' °^*n' '^'^ '■°*'^ comprised between Metapedia and the big rivar ^S and on th '^r^, "'" T""' *^' ""^'^ "" ''^^ ^ '^'^ °- ^'^'^^ P-^ession of that pre ent nnfn^ t "" '' "f"''^ ''' Paspebiac, surveys will be commenced ., soon as the present proposition ,s accepted and the works will proceed with the utmost diligence. The whole respectfully submitted, (Signed), A. M. THOM." Q. You have the answer to that letter ? Tindett^'Ti!i'''?Jr*\^/^P*'^'"'"* °^ ^"^''^ ^^^^ ^""^ ^^at concerns railways are rMotauroSeiThet: it tj r '"-''^ -'-^ '' ^^^"- ''' ^-- ' -- - Mr. Amyci : — nl„in!^i"\^??°""."'''f''"°''"'®*''°*'««''^« *hat the words "legitimate and privileged chims wh,ch are m the original are not found in the official copy, French ra„"laUon onrd' i 'T'"^'' ''''^■" ^« *^'« '« ^P"*'^* -hich might'^J come importanrnt once draw the attention of the Commission to the fact. mponant, i at The witness : — ' the atovP HS^lZ"'' l^r "' '" '^^ '"^'^^" " ^"^ P"""«S«'* °'*5ms in accordance with the above cited act," and they are signed with Mr. Thom's initials. By Hon. Mr. Justice JetU .•— I Q. They are found in the copy, are they not 7 A. Yes. Mr. Amyot :~ But they are not found in the official copy which we have. r'^ Ernest Gagnun 141 By Hon. Mr. Justice Jette :~ •fter "'l«iUml'"Th"""" "' "'^"''"' " '"«'"'"«• •■ which i„Ji..„ ,. . Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— It IB an error in the translation. -Wr. Casgrain : — ^ There is another one also. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :~ ' '^^"^^ " °o trace of it in thedepart- Mr. Casgrain:— Neither before nor aftpr fV,«,» • -....C.^.„.. ' ""^"^'"^^"--------.Moreaustates. Q. Yoa are the secretary of the department of Public Work, . a: t rgen'e'r:iTa;';r:h'th' ''h r '^^» '''"^^^ department. •nne.edtothedepartmem'o?Pubrw:t°fr*"'" '"* *'- <^epartment of railwavs • SC2: ^* ^^ ^^- -- - - ^stKi^^dir^r ?^^^ Q. Now since 1 t B«araian of the archives of A. I had the record but I did not look afit fu^y ' ^*^'"' ' ^"^^mmt^^,.^^: 142 ■Ernest Gagnon Q. Yon did not look at it fully •> A. Nu. Q. You did not examine it ? Q. By whom ? L.nge,i„ ,. ?H, a.p.^J.^lt.t 1."^ iS^Zl """""""^ "'' ^'•"°"»"«' A. I had no knowledge of it. Q. You had no knowledge of any of those things ' nor t .h« oSCT, uTtl!:,',edr.r "',' """""^ "^ "■• <'»P««™«»fl-ublic Work, A. Yes. Q. Who is his departmental cliief ? A. It is now the Honourable Mr. Charles Langelier. Q. His brother ? s^ «■ A. Yes. Q. When you saw the record lately, did von spp in if „ A. I did not MO .uch « letter ; I .c.reely knoi. the reoord A. n r,S "rrer"" ^" " "■' '"'"'""■°"' •^' ■• » «■•■ «»™u, i. it „„., A. I know nothing about it. A. Y^. "*' """"" "'° ''" ^"^ "' iaformation concerning that, if it exists ? Q. Now, there is a book in your deoartment in wh;,.h tv,.. i ». there not? uepariment m whu-h the letters are pre^s copied, A. Yes, there are several books .1. .* ,tt'r;,*e°„V tt H„r„L°b!e' ar'^ir '" k*? ." •""» "■' '"'<"'»-•' "< matter now occnpying our ..tentZ? "" " "''' ■"" ^P"'"""' -""pecting the A. No, Sir, it would be Mr. Moreau. And further the deponent saith not. Tfi Public ' ^or "le appointment of Mr j C ['IV'"'''' ^y '"« Honourle lS,?. "'' *''^«^^ mentioned! was made by the Order in P^-f^' commissioner to nav th« ? ^"'"^°'"''«°'' ^^d tS the twenty-tMrd AM i89;S ^^o hnnTed a„d t'St ' "'i'''^ ^PP-"tme„t "> Quebec considered thimi. ^ ^'" ^""'^^^d and ninetySit 1? ^"^.'^''''«'*»°t'oned on tocau^ethedebts wh;nv.^^'''"'''°"^«d to proceed to fh^^^^ ^ mmisiers then present ^These are the two leuZZilh T'"' °' '^« *-« '"ollowi"' .'"^ J*^ P™°"™ ^•°'- «« the seventy-five thousand dollars Mr. BHque :~ It would be better to read the letters. Mr. Garneau [reading) -. SiH, Quebec. Quebec, 28th April 1891. You are hereby auth " a Council number trhu^S^H '." ?"^'"«"' "^ 'he said clS!?"^^ °"' ''""^red thousand hundred and nine^-one Sn" '''^--^n (237) oFtheTrn^vTh'".''""*^ °^ ^^^^erTn 7" he paid by the Sea^ury ^trt"'? '^^ '^"^ ^^-dre^ S^ndllf ^^? «'^'^*^- pt Canada on or before thflfZ^w,"^"' "* the Province ofT v. "^"^ (<* J 00,000.00) -terestat5,perarr;;o\t^2^^^^^^^^^ SS-sXTLtre^titf-^^-'^^^^^ I have the honour to be, Sir, ""^zedand Your very humble servant, (Signed) p. GARNEAU, 10 ^ '" °' '''°*'^«^' «-«ePt that the figures aJl (a7..!S'oJI .'I J Ill i 1 :J 146 Hon, Pierre Garneau seventy -five hundred thousand dollars in place of being ($100,000.00) one hundred thousand dollars. It is the same signature and the same tenor.) I gave these two letters, because the treasury had not at its disposal at the time the necessary funds, but counting that Mr. Shehyn would put at my disposal after the tenth of July then next the necessary funds to honour the engagements, I had entered into with the approval of my colleagues, which in any case is what was done as I had anticipated. I never had and I have not yet, notwithstanding every thing that has been said and done recently, the slightest doubt as to the perfect regularity of the transaction in so far as the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company and the Government are concerned. Every thing was done honestly, openly and regularly, from a business point of view solely, without the intervention of any intermediary, and, it is useless for me to say it, without my receiving or without my colleagues having, to my knowledge, received any reward, favour, promise or value of any kind, either directly or indirectly. I state this with all the more confidence that I have a sufficiently long experience in political matters, having performed the duties of minister of the Crown during nearly ten years, and having been since my youth constantly engaged in important commercial transactions. In conclusion, I must add that I myself dictated to Mr. Mercier the explanations which he states as having come from me at page 38 of the official correspondence between his Honour the Lieutenant-Governi>r and Mr. Mercier, explanations rendered neces- sary by the observations made by His Honour in his letter ofthe seventeenth September last as stated at page twelve of the same official document. I affirm that these explanations are true in their entirety. And I have signed. (Signed) P. GARNEAU. Mr. Casgrain : — Are we to understand that this declaration is produced or not ? Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — If you wish it, it will be produced. Mr. Casgrain : — Yes, we make application that it bo at once produced. By Hon. Mr. Justice Bai)y : — Allow me to a«k you a few questions on what you have just declared. I will be short. What was the first step respecting this matter? Was it based upon the letter which Mr Thorn sent you, or before that had there been some steps taken towards settling the matter ? A. Mr. Thom came to my official office to speak about the matter, before the date of the letter, I think it was about the fifteenth of April. Q. Was that the first knowledge you had of the matter ? A. The first knowledge I had of the matter. When Mr. Thom came to my office I did not know the first word about it, about the transaction. Q. W A. Ab Q. Ha A. Mr would cons Q. It TV A. Yes 'etter ; these Q. He I A. I wa it was altei accepted. Q. Who A. Mr. ' Q. They A. Not i ■not know th; Q. In th: A. I do r Q. There A. Drafti Q. Who I A. It was Q. Others A. I hail r of the compar Q. The syi A. Yes Sii Q- You sts you thought yc A. After hi Q. Who w( A. There vi Q. Mr. Rol A. Mr. Rob Mr. Duhamel, ( the Council ; ai because he was t even in his roon Q. The Prin A. The Prin Q. Mr. Robi( United States ? A. Mr. Robic states. Bon. Pierre Garneau 147 Q. ^^'hen did this happen* A. About tho iifteenth of 4.,r,-l r i letter ; these letter, were chZed w ^^^V^^'^^^^- I was not willing to r. • u " "» altered Md imp oved IV fte^" r' """ ''''P''''' '"'l" Weh I did „„, ?' y^'"' P«P"«I these leuen ? "" A. Mr Thom^s Uter., I do „„. k„„„, ™' Q-irOep... . "' "" "°" ™""^ '" '^' --■- • ^0 A. I do not kno Q. There were dref,« br'o.Jhtl^v!^'^*'''^ ^^ ""' "°^ '" my office. A. Drafts on,.. °"^^' '« ^^ ^^ ^aa a letter brought LtaSing the condition, P Q. Who brought you these drafts? A. It was generally Mr Thom n Q- others did not bring you any f "" ''"'^'^ "'^^ ^^^ '^^-"^ ^ negotiated. A. Yes Sir. A. There were Mr. Eobfd„r Mr ChZr^ '" ""'"™'' ' Q.Mr.«,„„,,,,,.,„;^«'^^<;^*.WeUer... n Ti.„ r> • , aoout the matter y- Tlie Prime Minister ? A. The Prime Minister was in Pn.« ^-•"'■''*°"-"^"'--'-~---™..ri...::.: 148 Hon. Pierre Garneau ■ 1 18 Q. Mr. Robidoux, you say. was sick ? A. He was sick. Q. Here in Quebec or in Liontreal ? A. The first day, lie came here ; he bad been sick in Montreal, he returned here, he attended the Council, and he had the misfortune again to be sick. He returned to his boarding house where I was in constant communication with him. Q. When you finally concluded the business, if I mistake not by the documents before us. it was by means of a telegraphic despatch from the Attorney General, was i;. not ? A. The first time ? Q. Was it the first time ? A. He approved the transaction the first time but it was not on that telegram that the transaction was concluded ; it wis after he returned to Quebec. Q. 3o that when the transaction was concluded, the Attorney General was here, and you had received his legal opinion on the transaction ? A. Yen. I should say that the Attorney General whom Isaw'continnally, was sick, and he told me that the alfair was regular and that he would, as soon as he could leave his bed, give me a report in writing and that every thing was correct. Thereupon, I must have informed the Lieutenant-Governor. I told the Lieutenant-Governor, who took my word, th it I had the opinion of the Attorney General, who confirmed the whole matter and ordered the affair to be concluded : that, as soon as he would be able to write his report he would make it. His Honour took my word, and a few days afterwards, as soon as the Attorney General was able to Avrite his report, he gave it to me and I placed it in the hands of the Lieutenant-Governor, who kept it for several days and returned it to me. I neviT heard of the matter afterwards, up to the time when the matter came before the Senate at Ottawa. The report of the Attorney General seemei' to be satisfactory for everything. Q. Now, Mr. Garneau, you conversed about this matter several times with His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor? A. Yes. Q. How many interviews did you have with His Honour? A. I do not remember the number, I had several. Q. Respecting this matter? A. Respecting this matter. Q. Could you tell us, if you pleaao, in a categorical and methodical mnnner what you must have said at the interviews you had with His Honour ; at the first interview what passed? A. I told His Honour that I had this matter before me. I told him that I had conferred with my colleagues, but that I wos embarrassed and that I was aware of the responsibility which there was in this question... Q. Embarrassed by what ? A. Because, seeing that money was aaked to be placed in possession of the road and that these payments were to be made before the rond was commenced,! was emb irra«8ed in taking the responsibility of recommending the payment of money before the work whs yet done, but after having satisfied myself with sufficient security and of the responsibility of the pro- prietors and shareholders of the new company, I had no doubt that the works would be done in a satisfactory manner and that the Province hml everything to gain in proceeding to the •Keoution of the enterprise, because everything was going to ruin. I was told on all hands that the rol ■was of the possible. 1 Q. You Governor ? A. Yes Q. Late A. I wo this matter, Q. Did; deal, that pn words in the A. Yes, Q. You . A. But acquainted i matter, havir matter was i wished to tak Q. Did y( A. I may was no pressu Q. There A. There suffering; thi thing was goii considerable d Q. From t given His Hor brought to bea A. I decla: Q Could t Governor to bt A, I know Q. Were a A. No, Sir, Q. Directlj A. No. Q. You wei A. No, and seeing the respo matters genera Q. Will ynii that the Honour conclude the mj A. That if V in Hon. Pierre Garneau 149 A. Yes. ^^. i ■ -M «nurHT/„rj';;tii,rz' "'^ ■™" - ^ this matter, certainly. i^ieutenant Governor re,.-on.mendecl prudence in Q. Did you not sav to or eivp Wio w deal that preasure wa« being brought tube^rZn la"'ff '"' '''^* ^^" ^^^'^^^^^ ^ g'O'^t words in the same sense ? '^"" ^ *''.' '" '»''"«« you to give your consent or A. Yes, I said that. Q. You said it ? A. But the pressure which tb f • ^' acquainted with the matter than'mysel? whoTH\°'* T,""''"*^""' ^^"^ ^«« better Q. There was moral pressure ? ' thing w™ g„l„g to „i„^<|„„„ below lL,hf 'T "" """'■"«• ""i'W 'h"* «very- co„.We,.bIeH.,„.g,,,|,„i. S,;: „;: „'^Xr""" °""*"' "'^" •^''~ ™Wb'e brought to bear on you f ""'ernor the impremion thai „„„, p^,„^ „»^ |^^.^» A. I declare that there wa, no pre..„re f„m ouUi.ie. Oove'inrh^^t.liS,.-™":* ""^^— ' a. H0„o,.rt„e.ie.,.e..a„t A. No, Sir, No threats. Q. Directly or indirct tly ? A. No. Q. You were n„t threatened with the Premier's ill-will ■> eeeingth;^-;;S^SrrS^£-r 7-^T ^•--^ - -"ion. matters generally. "'® "' '^'« '"'^"er and u, the administration of all that?heZn',;SS^^^^^ Si^tfrruTd b^ "l^ "^^^ *" >^«"- ^^ere you told conclude the matter, or something in that sense " ''^'^'''^^''' '« '^ y«" ^id not hasten to A. That if we concluded ... What is the question, if you please '! 160 Hon. Pierre Garneau Q. Were you told that the Honorable Prime xMinister Mr. Mercier would be telegraphed to at once it you did not hasten lo conclude the matter ? A. I do not remember that such a thing was said to me. Q. Were you told something else meaning the same thing ? A. I do not remember. Q. Did you say so to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor ? A. I might have been told, some of my colleagues may have told me that if this afiair ^a^ not settled that the Prime Minister would be much disappointed, something like that, not more than that. 8 c k mt, Q. You might have been told that ? A. I might have been told that. Q. Did you tell it to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor ? A. No. ^.- Do you remember that well ? A. No. I do not say that. Q. You never said it ? A. No. Q. That you were threatened with telegraphing to the Piime Minister ? A. I do not remember that. Q. Is it usual in your department to transact business in the evening ? A. No, Sir. I had never had occasion to do so. Q. There are regular office hours, are there not? A. Yes. Q. If I believe the documents I see, this transaction was concluded at six o'clock in the A. rt W..S concluded in the day time, during business hours, b. ore four o'clock or half hours ' "°' ^""""^^^ '"""''■ ^^ ""'*" '^Sularly concluded during ordinary business Q- Was it not almost six o'clock in the evening whon the letter of credit or the two letters ot credit were given to Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Thum, or Mr. Chrysosf6me Langelier' A. Ihis perhaps requires some explanation. It is not a letter of credit, it is a promise of payment. I unde rstnnd by a letter of credit an altogether different matter. Q. You do not call this document a letter of credit ' T hJni^H " ? "f y " 1- "'^ 1 "'"?''• '^^^' '^""'' ^^ ^ P^°"^'«« «f P'^y™*"*- because I had n. t the funds at my disposal at the time. It was to have been a letter for one hun- dred and seventy-hve thousand dollars ($175,000.00) but, if I remember rightly, about four o chick m the afternoon, a bank cashier came to my office and asked me if it would b > the same th.ng for the department if. instead of giving a letter for ($175,000.00) one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. I would divide that into two letters for the same sum and ZLn'rdollIrs ^ ^^"""^ ""' ^""'''■'*' ^^""'^"'^ ''""''''' ''"^ ^"' («75,000.00) seventy-five Q. Who was that cashier 7 A^Ithinkitwas M.Webb, cashier of the Union Bank. I told him that it would make no difference to me provided that the first letter was returned, I would replace it by two others making the same amount and which would be payable at the same time and on the same cc was sett preparei Q. A. ] Q. 1 "If you A. I met him is the rememb€ Q. M A. N and Mr. I join Mr. I Q. M A. N Q. Ml A. N( Q. He A. Id Q. Ai( A. Yh Q. Did A. Mr. Armstrong, Q. Tha A. As 1 lie found thi fast enough Q. How he told you A. I thi Q. Your A. It se( Q. Are y A. I do 1 Q. Wast A. I do r Q. Let us leave your off A. On thi Q. Yes ? A. I can II Bon. Pietre Garntau Ut Q. You heard Mr. Arm^trong-s evidence /' '"'"^ *'« ^«^'"^' «««« hour' * A. I hoard a part of it. ^ . 19 the only time I saw him. It was Ll.S' u ^ ^ conversation in passing That rememher. There was nothing et"t".rtt'' ^'" ^^^"* ^'"^^^ ^^" ^ aueLn."'l do Sot ^ a: No! nC..ratTmtr.TrLt:n?^^^^^^^ ^-^ ^^ ^« ^^"^ Mr. Pacaud . and Mr. Pacaud was passing in a waggon aTth. "°' "°^ ^' '^ ^'^» ^'^^ Mr Thorn jcm Mr^Pacaud, to the besf of my Sfowiedget faTi T' '''' ^^ ^^^^^^^ ^e^ -eTj Q- Mr. Pacaud did not speak to you ' A. No. Q. He did not get out of ,he vehicle to speak to you ? A. I do not remember. ^ Q. Are you certain ? A. Y,s. A™..„,„,. •"*• '» me .bout .hi. .,.„»,,„„ ,,.„^„ ^.^ ^^^ ^^^ Q. That is not the question n,M u A. I thmk lie came to my house. Q. Your private house ? A. It seems so to me. Q. Are you quite sure ? A. I do no*, swear it. Q- Was that the only time ? Q. Yes ? 152 Hon. Pierre Garneau If I had to wait to sign the letters which were being four or live o'clock. I am not certain, prepared, there was nothing else. youlemlH^.T"'''"'"''"' "'' *'''^'^^ "'" '^"^^ '^^^^ ^^« ^"^^^^^ General, have recotds^L^vll l''\°^'fsr^ms and all that is official is in the department in the xi^i':?rMt:: in' tht rfci: "^^^^' '- ^^ ''- '''-''' *- *^^ ^^^-*-- ^" ^^« Q. Mr. Moreau is the secretary of the department? A. Mr. Moreau is Director of Railways. ■Q. That depaitment is under your control » of Pitbhc Works.' '''P'^'*'"'"* ''^ ^"^"« W"^'^"' «»d » "'^der the control of the Commissioner memti^lTt \TT ? '^' "''T""^ "^ "'* "^"°"'' *^^« lieutenant Governor I read in the memorial at page twelve, second paragraph, the following words ; matter onhrB^'f'^^rT'f'^V^' """• ^'- Garneau again conferred with me on this were r^a LTn IT' T Ir '"" 'T'''"^ *°^" *^^"^^ '^'^^ ^■«' « repugnant to him, that threats relL I ,a?H ;T '^^K^ '" V^' ^""- ^" ^^•■'^•^^ ^"^ ^« «'^'^^<^ *hat he w«s inclined to " bdne tL P?ii? r • '' */'^'' "'' ^"'^''- U"^'^^ *^« circumstances. I think, that •' vn , ! f V ''*.'5 '^^^'^e'^^*^'^ t'^ ™e d»""g the absence of the Hon. Mr. Mercier, " fn!n T'^- ™\^"th""t a" '^^Iviser ; what you have to do is to resist and to conform m all respects with the law." Weil what interpretation do you give to those words ? A. Ihe interpretation, is that which I Q. Pardon I will read them again to you. " Between the 23rd and 26th April, the Hon Mr Garneau agHin conferred with me on this matter of the Baie des Chaleure Railway. He told me that strong pressure was being brought t.. bear upon him, that he was required to H. M ,? "'^ repugnant to him. that threats were made to him, of cabling to the Hon. Mr. Meicier. and he added that he was inclined to resign." A. I come back to what I already said. It was my colleagues, who were better acquainted with the matter than I was and who... s . « " were oetter Q. Did you say these words ? A. I do not exactly remember the words. Q. Did you state something which was in the sense of those words? A. As to " pressure " I think I said, fes I said it. Q. But there is more than that A. But it is as I have already lefore repeated. oo .4^" 1 1??* you to give a categon.Ml answer. The question is very clear : " Between the 23rd and 26th Apn^ the Hon. Mr. Garneau again conferred with me'on this matteTof the Bau> des Chaleurs Railway. He told me that strong pressure was being bronght to bear npon hini. that he was reqmred to do things that were repugnant to him. that threats were made to him of cab.mg to the Hon. Mr. Mercier, and he added that he was indined to resign. A. I told the Lieut.'nant-Governor that I was inclined to resign that is true, but I do not remember Q. For what reason, it is not mentioned ? A. Because I had doubts about the matter myself, it was to pay money like that without having all the necessary information. P ^ money like that Q. What possibility of A. It wa General whic Authority up( l)ecame the C whether all v <^. Now c It is a very d( Hon. Mr. Gai way. He toli required to d< to the Hon. : that ? A. Yes I Q. All. al A. Yes I came from ou Q. Did y( answer is veri By Hon. . Q. There phing to Mr. I A. That p suppose it is p By Hon. 1 Q. You sa A. Since am under the have the matti and I did not a Q. I am K you were thret A. No. Q. Is it po be'cabled to? A. If it wa Q. I wish 1 A. I am ct Q. Who w( appeared to tal A. All. A Commissioner Q. Who wi Hon. Pierre Garnenu 158 Q. What doubts had you. Had you doubts as to the legality of the thing or as to the possibility of the Province meeting its financial obligations? A. It was as to the legality of the question and when I read the report of the Attorney General which confirmed the whole matter, which stated that all was regular, that is the authority upon which I depended ; I had to make the report which I made and which became the Order in Council, that was it, I had great un( .siness on the subject of knowing whether all was regular and legal. i.1. Now do you deny having said to His Honour that which is marked in this paragraph. It IS a very delicate question which I put to you : " Between the 23rd and 26th April, the Hon. Mr. Garneau again conferred with me on this matter of the Baie des Chaleurs Rail- way. He told me that strong pressure was being brought to bear upon him, that he was required to do things that were repugnant to him, that threats were made to him of cabling to the Hon. Mr. Mercier, and he added that he was inclined to resign." Did you say A. Yes I said that I was inclined to resign. Q. All, all? A. Yes I said that pressure was being brought to bear, but I did not say that •came from outside. pressure Q. Did you say what is stated in that paragraph ; it is a very delicate questi. n and your answer is very important. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jettt :— Q. There is a part upon which you were questioned, that threats were made of telegram phing to Mr. Mercier... A. That portion of it. I do not remember at all and I do not even believe it, but I suppose It IS possible since His Honour says so, it is quite possible. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Q. You say that is possible that it was said ? A. Since His Honour says it, it is possible. I can not poMtively denv it, but I am under the impression that I did not say it, but this may have been said to me : that to have the matter confirmed Mr. Mercier might be cabled to, but it was not said as a threat and 1 d.d not say to the Lieutenant-Governor that it was said as a threat. Q. I am requested to ask you another question. You say that you are not certain that you were threatenetl with cabling to the Hon. Mr. Mercier A. No. _ Q. Is it possible that it may have been said to you that the Hon. Mr. Mercier would be^cabled to? A. If it waa said to me, it might have been with the view to... Q. I wish to know if it was said to you ? A. I am certain that it was not said to me. Q. Who was the minister who more especially talked to you about this matter? who appeared to take the greatest interest in it ? A. All. All the ministers were equally interested. I saw the Attorney General, the Commissionerof Crown Lands... Q. Who was it who seemed to be the most interested ? 154 Hon. Pierre Garneau A. They were about equally interested. RoesUyZe!?:* ''"' ''"''*^" ^^'^ ""'• ^"^^-«^' ^^- ^-"^^1.... Mr. Robidoux. Mr. ^r.tZ^ltTm\T£^^l^r' "":• "^r'^''^' --^MnDuhameltookruore men, Mr. Langelier Mr Sdoux an X n T'^'f ''""■• ' ''^^"'^' '">■ '''''' '^^'^ ^^ntle- ae these gentleme; had go^e'o N v Y.S toT "'" ""," "''^"""'^'^ "^^'^ *^« '°^"- pronouncedthanMr.RoJ;M:;?.,t::e.t'd\::tr;.^^^^^^^^^^ '''^' ^^ »- .uch^i^::;^^irt;:^3:!;:r2r«/iSt^^^ -«^^°*-*^ ^^« do 80. What you said, the words used bVou^^^^' ^' " ^ ''°"' """"'""^ *"°''' ^'°" *° twenty-sixth April ? ^ ^ '" *^^ '"'^''^'^^ ^'•"'" ^^'^ twenty-third to the- O' Wh'v"^?/'"'"?^'' '".'^■'^'"^ ™^'^ ''"^" ''■^^' ' -^'e already said. ^^^^^^ --d toyou. it J-/'"^ '"'"^^'^^ "«*• ^l^e -b.idy was to cme on the tenth or the twelfth of July, wa. A. That is to .ay that the m.mey was available .;n the tenth or twelfth oi Jnlv crJ^i;r:^::;:^T''- ^or the h.te with whi.. you S^thesl-tte. of rolling stock and a part . " th roul wa' tTulT' 'f ''' "^^''^ "'^*^^°'"^ *° ^"'''' ^^e Mr. Thorn repres.Jed to me M- tLTit wa^^^^^^^ '^"' ^'"^^^^^^ immediate possession, to ever e^the mat Ir Tn - o^n, ^ ''"PO'tance to be put into was even wi.hed there were ce tain dehr^ ^Tl T^ '"'''^ ^ """" "^ P''««'^''«' ^^is once. We got up to the tenth otMav Th v ° Tm u'' ''''^''^ '" ^""'^ '^'"^ P-^^d at get to wo..k'and fhe mattl^t .k efgh^'or te.'fda^s ' ^ ''''' ""' "^ ^^'^ '^^"^ ^ -" Genlss;Si;:-;r:^;;LSr''"^°''"''^^^^'^^^''-^"^^^^^^^ A. It was disjussed in council. Q. Was the j ttorney General there » Q. To your knowledge ? A. To my knowledge. Q. To your peisonal knowledge ? all tht miaisTer ''"""' ''"^^'^'^^ ^^'^^ *^^ ^''^^ ^ «--' was unanimously passed by Q. Was it submitted to the Attorney General ? A. Yes it was submitted to the Attorney General ^^^Q. Was there a written report from the Attorney Genera, authorizing it. or i, there one 1 Hon. Pierre Garnet u 156 wholtma iLwrLbeT hit '' Attorney General having taken cognizance of the that everyth ng wrcorr'c' and th^r ' ^T^^^'^f " "'^"^^""^« °^ '*' ^^ ^«» ^^i-fied report upon the 1^1 aTd h'; wot H -Tr^^^ ''!.^' '""'^ ^''''' ^"'^ ''-^^' ^« ''""'^ ^"^e hia and . 1 upon tS tt thVot.CS^Ji- tCS ^" ^^^^^ ^^^' ^^^^^ ^" ^"-" y. Ihere was no report in writing youtv?"eSnTltr"''''''"t"^'^""°*"''^^'''**^^ *^« '-«•«"- which Jhou«an.idXrsr °"« *°'- "^^-^^'^^^^ thousand dollars and the other for one hundred becots^^"ctsarTL'j?hlf.T "' '''''''\^'T''' "^ "'*"^'^ ^^'^^ '^ ^ P"»'-'«r service mentiroWgeTreiilai "r«- "^ "."'! T^ '^ '''^ Legislature, then the Govern- theinoneyvotenthcrext^^^^^^^^^ able for that obto ^^f. "^V.? ?" . "" ^'"^ *^^ ™°"^y ^'^^ ^^e«° voted and was avail" prelattn trthettter if'cVedi" °'"^'''' '" "'^'^ ^^''^ '"""^^ " -' -^«^- ^^»^ « -^ -tei A TllTv "*? ^"" .^''"'"' ^"'"^ ^''"^'^^ ^"'^ Treasurer ad inten,n. PnrneMii;r'Ti?rayTlwh::'t' Government was formed, in the absence of the case it was about th "teiZf MalS, "™' ''""'"' "' *'''^"'" """^ >" '^^ P^^-"'" Q. And these functions ceased ? A. These functions ceased about the end of July and at Mr. Herder's return. VJ. Uoth at the same time ? Q. When was this ? middt I March.'''"'' '''"' *'' '^""""^ '^' ^P"^' ^^'''^"^ *'-- «-*'«™«n left about the Q. That wafl three weeks after Mr. Mercier's departure ' the dtte^'eX''^'^ '^'°"^'''" ""'■ "^^"'"'^ ^^•^^^*"-' ^ '^^^^ -eks, I do not remember i?t/ itfr. Casgrain :~ Q. When Mr. Mercier left for Europe, did he leave written instructions with you ' 156 P Hon. Pierre Gameau A. No. Q. Did he give yoii general instructions ? ' Q. About what time ? A. About the fifteenth of April, I think? y. V\ hrtt did you say to Mr. Thorn ' Q." Whtt dWMr Th ■' ^' ''"^ ""^ P''"P"^'^'^ *" ™^^^' *° P"* them in writing. A I do nnt ^^"™ «^y to yo" when he went to see you ? ^ A. 1 do not remember the words Q. About, if you please? A. I do not remember his words at all. Q. How did he ojien them ' y. What was this new syndicate ' ^^^^A. It was composed of Mr. Cooper, Mr. Dawes, Mr. Ewing, Mr. IHom himself and an Q. All persons whom you knew well ' Q. Had you seen your colleagues before that ? f m a man A. No. Q. You knew Mr. Dawes ? A. Yes. gem^ntsX'^ed by Mr' Thorn ? '""'™'° ""^ ''''''''''' ^«" ^^'« ^ -"^ O"* the enga- A. Yes. Q. There were men of high financial standing? A. Yes. Q. Is that not so ? A. Yes. .eveSefnt'h'" '"" ^"^ *"*^^^'«- -*»^ ^- Thom between the fifteenth and the A. I think so, I saw him often. Q. He was often at your office ? A. \'m (j. Did A. Ye« Q. Bet^ matter ? A. I d(j Q. Wh, A. I do Q. Ml. A. I do Q. Mr. A. I do Q. Was A. Mr. 1 Q. Was A. I car Q. You A. Yes. Q. Is thi A. Yes. Q. By th lier would tel A. Yes. Q. That t New- York bei A. He Ji Q. He tol wouhi be the self, Mr. Robi A.^No, I some questioi Q. I see a y-m received? The telogi The Hon( "I fear to business in my des Chaleurs II • departure of M to the interests A. I think Q. The Mr. oial Secretary ? Hon. Pierre Garneau ' d. -ot remember if he was at the time .-1 to the seventeenth of April ? A. Yes. y- Did he go there alone ? A. Ye^. Q. Between the fifteenth and the seventeenth ,V,^ ^th matter ? seventeenth, did other persona speak to you of this A. Uoj^ot remember, except so.ne of my colleagues. A. I do not remembei. Q- Mr. Charles Langelier ? A. I do not reinemb. r at all. Q. Mr. Duhamel ? A. I do not rememi)er which one. Q. Whs Mr. Robidoux in town ? A. Mr. Robidoux was in town about that timt «. Was Mr. Robidoux in town from the fiftee. A. 1 cannot say exactly. Q. You received a telegram from Mr. Robidoux on the seventeenth ? Q. I« that not so ? A. Yes. A. Ym. A. He hd not tell me that the anangement was closed ' Q. He told y ou that the arrangement of wh i^h m nu \ . would be the arrangement come tf^N .^York b^ween M^^^'^f "'^ "''""^ "^^°-' ^^^ aelf, Mr. Robidoux ? '" between Messrs. Thom, Mercier and him- Bomf ,iiL':,r*''"''''^*'^««^^^*^^*'''« --^--t was closed. B.ere had been y.>u Scei::,; ^^^^^^"^ ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ - ^^^^^ ^ffl-l documents, that is the telegram that The telegram is read to the witness as follows : The Honourable Pierre Garneau, i^mnisaioner of Puhlic Works, Quebec. ^^^r^^s::^:^:;^^^^^^ you may proceedto des Chaleui. Railway. Langelier will tel'ou xa^t / whaT w '." ''? T''' °*" *^« «-« •departure of Mr. Mercier. I am informed that anv i^. ""^^^ ^^ ^^'''^^ "PO" before the to the interests of the enterprise and oTtt priSe'*^ ^^ mthismattor may be prejudicial " (Signed), j. e. ROBIDOUX " A. I think so. cial 1^'::^) '""«^"^'- "•^'«"«^ *« - '^^' 'elegram is Mr. ^ Charles Langelier, the Provin- 158 Hon Pierre Garneau A. Yes. A.- OnTh^rda " r- ""'■ ^^'^'-^ -« - then in town . Q- And he was not in town on the sixteenth? Q. Nor on the fifteenth ? A. I think not. Mr. -;h.rle. u„geli„ ,„„ i. b.JI'-J,:""' " """'^ »"•"'" '» 'hi. q»estio„-„„e.he„ A. les. mInaHe.. ""-"'— ^'^ no.pre,, »„fc.M,. Then .he„ we„ ,„.„„ p,eU. Q. It ,0. to be pre,„„g .f,e„.rf,, jy ;, „, , . A. I do not th nk I had manv ,-.,f • ^'^'eenth and the seventeenth ' Q. I wish to know iJyon had'an^T""" "''''''' '""^ ^-•-"- A. I do not remember A. I cannot say exactly. " ^'- ^'^'*'^'es I^angelier on the subject » Q. You do not remember. A. No. A. Might you have had? .evei^;;,r »-«-' -^ •" -" w.. ™re.„c. .„ :„ ,e.»ee. .he ««ee«h .„, .he c<„,^-,;° "« -^^ - -- -" -« ., e«oP, .he„ „e .,e..ea .„ .„,„he. . y. You received Mr. Thorn's It^tf. ^n tu A. Yes. "^^ *"® seventeenth ? <3. Aboi A. Aboi •Q. The. A, Isul •Q. Now, A. I do Q. Abou A. Abni Q. Was A. That Q. Was 1 A. I can Q. You ( A. No, I Q. How hefore you m A. There Q. Whoi A. Thei^ Q. What A. I do n was decided ii Q. Can y( A. No. Q. Did > c seventeenth ai A. Not fr< Q. What ] A. I do nc Q. Betwee A. For m} Q. I do no of the Ministei A. It was I Q. Then y( Robidoux on tl A. No, bee Q. When A. There had been some discussion and I wanted to get more information. y. W ho approached you to give you the information ? A. The Attorney General came to town in the interval. Q. What day did the Attorney General come here ■> Q. Can you remember what day he arrived ? A. No. Q. Did ^ ou get any information from others than thp Aff«r«„,. n seventeenth and the twenty-third or the twenty-fi«t? ^"°"'''^^-««»«™l between the A. Not from others than the Ministers. Q. What Ministers ? A. I do not remember that ; it was discussed between all the Ministers together. . y. Between wliat Mmisters specially ? A. For my p.,. I depended more o„ the At.o„,sy-Ge„e™l th.„ „„ .„y m„. . A. It «m ,l,e Alt,,mey^,e„„al »h„ s„c „e „,o,t int„m,.tion A. I had hi8 verbal report before submitting the affair. Q. At what date ? A. It must have been the twenty-first or the twenty-second not,?n!Lrt;e:t:i:tt^^^^^^^^^^ Attorney-Qeneral'had told;„u U wa^'cot c , ' '"''''" '''''' '"'^«'""""' "'"^ ^^« 160 Hon. Pierre Garneau A On the twenty-third, the or.ler was passed., us Jt rZS'::^:!!!.:';^ '-^''■'^''' ^ - ^P-^^-^ -^ the twenty-sixth ;you gaye Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Let the witness answer your questions. Mr. Cmgrain : — Certainly. By Mr. Casgrain :— ^^^;:!^CZX.Z:^i::::l^^ -''^-^ hesitation «„ the twenty. Q. It was alter th wen y- h^^^^ the twenty-sixth ; I am convinced of that, and of your wish to resign T ' ^^^' ^"^ ^^' Lieutenant-Governor of your fears A. It WMs before passing the Order-in-Council. (j. It was before passing the Order-in-Council ' A. Yes, certainly. brought to boar upon him, that he was reou L to h! !l '^""""^ ^'^'""'^ ^'^ ^eing that threats were made o him of eabllS o the Ho '? J. "'''' ''P"^"'"* '" ^'^ was inclined to resign." *' * '^ ""*"• ^'■^ ^^''^'e'- ""d he ivdded that he Wa. that before or after the parsing of the OuIer-in-Council » Q. It was belore the passing of the Or^ler-in-Council. Q. You dul not have a cor.ver.sation ^^ . .. the Lieutenant Governor A. Only tor the report of the Attornev General. Q. But if you had it, at that time, why ? A. I had the verbal r.-port, I did not have th;' written report in-clciUnd t ":;ir oSn :Si:^? ^"°"'"^ «^"-' ^«^- "- P-in. of the Order- A. Yes. of th?o:;::rir:di;"r;:,^:;r h^r ::;^^-*«--«o-norbe,.re the pacing Attorney General, Mr. Robidoux tha t « 011'^' '" T "T '"' ''« °P"""" ^' '^o written out ? ' "'® "P'"'°" ^«* ^""«" ^»'t had not l>een correctly A. Be Q. Is: A. Id had said th Q. Th< opinion of A. I til Q. Con, A. No, Q, You A. No. Q. Now Lieutenant-< A. I do passed. Q. Aftei to see the Li A. No. Q. You 8 passed ? A. Isubi Q. That I A. The re there was a wi commenced a Q- Listen " Between this matter of i brought to bea that threats we was inclined to *' I think, that I " Mr Merciei, y " and to confon Is it not tru and signed by tl A. No. Id •Joubts as to the the papers had t Q- Is it not ( ofcredit topay t A, No, I do 1 should pay. Q Was it ag letters of credit ? A. No, that V 11 161 A. The report which was not clear r , ,^, V" - - - - °crrr t ""^^ -*' — «»« . " I think, that beShe Prhn Ar"" •" " '^'^^"^ ^^'^'^t' are Se rjn . ^^ '^^'^ ''^^' J>« " Mr Mercier, yoTcannot f 1 "''•'"■ '°°''^'^'*«d *° ™e dud '' th?!"'*'''"'''""'"^''^"''^^ A. Ac. I do not remember lonnU », Q. I« it not irue that all tl, V, •. • ^ '' ""'^ ^" should pay. '"' ^^'^^^ the Order in Council was passed it w ..!&- '— >■»" - .. .»... j:: ;7'^"- 11 162 Hon Pierre Garneau Q, Will you please answer my question. Was it agreed between you and the Lieute- nant Governor that letters of credit should be issued ? A. There was no question ofletters of credit between the Lieutenant Governor and myself Q. Never ? • ^ ' A. No. Q. Do you swear that which I have just read to you in the Lieutenant Governor's letter is not true ? That this did not occur between the twenty-third and the twenty-sixth ? A. I forget the dates, I do not know, I cannot fix (he dates. Q. It might be between the twen^v third and the twenty sixth ? A. 1 do not know. I do not remenb(3r having said, uttered any doubt as to the legality of the transaction after the Order in Council was passed. Q. That is not in question ? A. I did not express any doubt when the Order in Council had been passed. Q Did you keep any note of this matter ? A. No, all the notes are in the department. ofKcially. Q. You did not keep notes in a private note book ? A. No, [ have no notes I had nothing to keep them for. All matters are in the depart- ment. Q. Do you say that Mr. Rohidoux was present at the Council of ministers when the Order in Council was passed on the twenty-third ? A. No, Mr. Rohidoux was sick, but the ministers who were present having passed it, I myself conferred with Mr. Rohidoux about the matter and Mr. Rohidoux approved it, like the others. I do not know if I did not go with one of my colleagues, Mr. Ros.,, to Mr. Robidoux'rt, and we talked over it. Mr. Rohidoux knew the Order in Council and approved it Every thing was done with the approval of the Attorney General. Q. If it is said, as it really is, in the letter of the Lieutenant Governor that it was from the twenty third to wenty sixth that you went to him to express your fears, will you take upon yourself to s.ute that the dates given by the Lieutenant Governor are not correct ? A. I can say nothing like that. Q. Now how is it, that you had not taken from your department, the department of Public Works, a person as commissioner charged with making the payments under the Order in Council No 237 ? A. Mr. Chrysosti^me Langelier having been appointed for the same purpose the pre vious year, I think, for the same locality and the same company, I thought that he was the competent person to continue his work and in the then existing case, having already acted as such I thought that he was the one whom we should appoint to continue the same thing, to continue the work. Q. Who suggested Mr. Chrysost6me Langelier's name to you ? A. Mr. Chry808t6me Langelier came quite naturally, having been the person employed previously for a similar mission. Q. I would like you to state who suggested his name ? A. I do not remember that the name was suggested by any one. Q. Was it Mr; Duhamel ? A. Reports being that he had already acted as such, I do not know if I, myself, did not suggnst it. Q. Are you sure it was you ? A. I thi Q. It wj Yes. With With ^Vhel A. Q. A. Q. sinner'? A. As so him to my ol Q. Had I you ? A. That i Q. He WJ A. Yes. Q. The le not, at page ( Lieutenant G( A. Yes, I Mr. Casgn L. E. No. 1356. L. R. No. G3«. J. C Lanoei "Sir, As you he of date the 23rd m conformity w to authorize yc which sihall be c contractors or i of this road b in the direction in the said Ord detailed stateme contested or nol «aid Order-in-Coi sec. 1. par. J., I pay the privileg arbitrators shall : undersigned to Hon. Pierre Garneau 163 A. I tliink so. and it wa^ supported by the others H- It was adopted unnnimously ? A. Yes. Q. Without discussion ' ^^^ * H„d he ,.„ i„.t™c«„. .o „t Wo™ he receive .he leuer of n,..™o„o„, ,„.,, „, A. That 18 that he should act on the letter whirl, \„ i . • no.,^.;ti::r7rhfisro?rr;e„^^^^^^^^ -p'-o-eo. ■■. i. Lieutenant Governor? correspondence betwee che Prime Minister and the A. Yes, I think that is the letter. Mr.Casgrain eads the letter to the witness aa follows : " Department of Public Wokk,^ L, E. \o. 1356. L. R. So. G3y. "QUKBEC, 24th April, 1891. " J. C. Lanqeliek, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar of the Province, Quebec, "Sir, which .hall be considered as privileged de Ms Sfm I T T' J^^ "'^i'"^ «nd to SecWe contractors or sub-contracto« of the Ba ie e S Jlel P 7 '^' """^^""'^ '^ '^^ ^"e ol tins road between the 20th and the 90 h mL ■ 1m ' ?','• f °^ *'^^ ««<^^i""« in the d.rectfon of Pa^pebiac, according o thp nl '. *^^ ''"'*^ ^'^e^- Cascapedia in tho said Order-in-Council No. 23;^^^ And wLn vo'ir'Tr '"' '""'"'""« '"-^foned detailed statements, with documents in tupporU e eo" Tf h '" •? ^°."""" '« ^^^'^ '«« conto^sted or not, payment of which vou wil b™ ' f ^'''f ^'^ ^''^'"'^' whether «a.d Order-in-Council No. 237. and of^he Act ,) ^ ' ^" '"''''" '" conformity with sec. 1 par. J. I shall place a't your Iptal 1 lou wltT'"'^^'' '' ""'''■• ^'^P- «« pay the privileged claims approved of,T foTwhth a , . "' ^ ^'""""'"equired to ' arbitrators shall have been given, and his b7 n ea s o^ - '"v ' °' '''' ^''^''^ "'' *he undersigned to the Honourable the ProZ;MZl7TZl!"^r''f '' "^ '^'' "" "'e subsidy of 800,000 viy <8 164 Hon. Pierre Garneau acres ofland com-erted into money, which mh.ldy .-as granted by the statute (parag ,.nb T ; to aul the completion and equipment of the said ra.hvay for a distance of 80 miles as let.i mined in the same statute, on condition that you frrnish me, on demand, ^vith a d.. ail d statenient, special or general, of the sums wliich you shall have paid, oui <.f the fuiir's so placed at your disposal, with a general report, supported by receipt- and vouchers, on he result of your operations: the whole according to the prescriptions an,! conditions set forth insaidOrdei-m-Counul.No.237andthesaidAct,54Vict v!mp.88, s- . ' o.ir.J. Th.^expenses occasioned by such verification and such privileged cl.i.;.- approver ..adjudged to be du, shall be taken oui of the said subsidy converted in«,o money and paid to you 01 prese-tation of your accounts 111 detail. " I remain, sir, " Your, etc., (Signed) " P. GARNEAU. " Commissioner." Q. Tliis is the letter, is it ivit? * A. Yes. Q. It is dated on the twenty-fouitl) of April ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Now Sir, you said a moment ago, I think, that if His Honour states in his letter ihat you ruforted to him that you were threatened, that Mr. Menuer would be cabled to if you did not ..••..iry out the transacti.^n, that that might be true, that it must be true? A Wh. .t I said, I maintain ; the thing was taken note of, I do not remember. 1 mav have changeii. the words. ^ q. Wh,it 1 now ask you is : if His Honour says it in his letter, it must be right? A. That is what I said a moment ago. I have nothing else to say than that. Mr. BHque : — 1 would suggest that in such a delicate matter as this, we should endeavour to avoid placing the witness in conflict with His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. The question* put at different times by the learned gentleman have a tendency to put the witness directly in conflict with the Lieutenant Governor. ""euwy Hon. Mr. Justice JetU : — As I understand it, Mr. Garneau does not wish to say that he contradicts His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. " He gives a ditterent version of the meaning of the words which he may liave utt red and he explains them so as to say : If I used these words ; this is the meaning I inten ' convey. They may have been understood otherwise. As to the words themsd . understood up to the present that the words may have been pronounced bi- Mie v «„ does not wish to contradict His Honour the J ) ,^enai.t Governor. As to the d» '■ • ' ^v^ positively: after the Order-in-Council, I co • ■ ,ot have said what is repor . Ul.ore I think that 18 the substance of the tesiimony. liy Q. A Q A. Q A q. - Pacaud, ] A. N Q. Tl A. N Q. Ai A. I( Q. Yc A. Y. Q. Isi wanted it 1 return ? A. No, Q. Yoi A. Ire return. Q. Ort A. I do be done. Q. Was with Mr. Pa A. It w( account of tl Q. The ( wh. ch you a A. The 1 twf.nty-secon Q. It wa, submitted a '. A. It wai Q. Doyo A. Ido n Q Onlyt wlien you mai A. No. Q. He coi A. He wa Q. How Ic A. A few : Q. How di Hon Pierre Garneau liy Mr. Caagruin ; „■ '.'I'' "»' ra-ieraber th.l al ,1|. »""""' <^ 1 oil do not remember that t *■ i.\ ": "™eT.'t".he'' r '""■ '°'- "" «""■ '«• -'^ re you certain? A. I do not remember that at all. H- *ou commenced bv savino- v« fu A. M I was not told that. y- You do not remember ' ^. Or th«t be would be cabled to' be dot '' '"* *''"' ^'^''^ ^« -« *o.d that he would be cabled to so that th n ■ /^ «> . ^ouieu 10, 80 that the thine miixJif Q- Waa it before or nffo».u . """S mignt «hM P_, .«2t;;:!-»'"^ "»he Order i„ a„„e,, .h.. ,„„ H,, .,, ,„.„,., A. It waa before, since Mr. Pacaud f«i . account of the delftvf. u *°''* ™e that Mr. Thorn thr^o* j. O ThoTi ^ '"'<''^"«e the settlement of thol ^"°™ ^'^eatened to return on .w. ,..vp-— --»«.. ...e .-.een. .„d b.d ,«.d .,„ ,. .„„„,„. „ .^^ q: DorrrreX°:r ^ A. I do not remember. ^ '" '^'^ ™°"»ng or the afternoon ' A. A few minutes only ^'"''" '^* ^""'^ ^°"«« ? Q. How did he commence the conversation ? 166 Hon. Fieri e Garneuu Bettlti alf Zt7r^T'h"^^'!.^■ ^' ^°":'»«"«^d in thi« way, that the affair seemed not to be 'erw threatened to go away, to abandon the matter if it wa. not settled Q. How did it happen that it waa Mr. Pacaud who went to see you? A. Ihat I cannot say. <4. Was he in the hubit of going to see you on matters of that kind » A. No, never. y. He had never spoken to you, on other occasions, to press claims ? A ^^rJf' ^?u '/"' "'''' ^'' ^''^ ^P""^^" *° y°" «'■ '^fl"^"« «f 'hat nature ? A. 01 affairs of that miportance, it was the first time. A Mr^'pIl'H IT* ''"P^'^f"* "^"e"- '^^' he had sp-ken to you about? A. Mr. Pacaud had verj- rardy seen me on business. y. You must have been surprised ? A. I did not see the object of it. Q. Did it not strike you? A. I kuew nothing at all that was going on then oouncd between you and the ministers, but respecting .he i.sue of thr,eUero' credit " A. No. I did not see Mr. Pacaud at all respecting the is^ue of the letters of credit Q. Not at ail? ^ <=uii. A. No, I saw Mr. Thom only, oredi?"?*^' ^"" *^' °°'^ P«™°" >°» '''^ ^"d ^ho pressed you to issue the letters of the ^.^:':::r^irx^r:^:s;r " '"°"- *° - «^*^« ^^-^«>^- -^ the mon!^- f "" *'' "'^''" ' '' ""^ '° ^"^ ««'*^« "'^ shareholders that he wanted to have A. To pay off Mr. Armstrong who had a heavy claim ngainst the company. tbe5h;i?r r^nSS^^ir^Ldi:;?^"'-" *^^* ^--^- ^-p- -- -^ A. According to the informations we had obtained Genet' """ °°'°°"'*'' ''■"*""• '"°*"«'""' "» '"""■"'".iwion ofthe Aforney mo„* f"' '■""' '" "' "'' "" •"""'"""ion of "he Lieutenant Governor to p.j tl,.t A. The ail Q. Had y( A, No, the Q. You ha minister durinj A. Yes. Q. Is it no( except with the Lieutenant Gov A. For sun work is done, it Q. Habitua A. No. The heen paid and the purpose for irregular, but... authorized the a Q. Did the , the letters of whi A. He sanct: Q. In writin) A. I do not r for itself. Q. Do you sn legal to issue lette A. I do not r( Q, Did you e: A. No. Arms showed it to me hi and he approved i hundred and 8ev( and some hundred possession of the n Q, You knew ( A. I did not k Q- You made i A. No. I did m ledge. It was for } Q. You made i A. No. Q- You did not Q. No, when it and approved by Mi Hon. Pierre Garneau iQX xnmister during ten yean,? ^^P«"«"^« «« « pol.t.cal man and of your position a, A. Yes. except with the a^horSltirSf th'e'lTeSonlt"^^^^^^^^^^ "' *^'' "™"""*' "« "«-«'• P-^^r Lieutenant Governor ? ^'euienant Gov ernnr or upon a warrant signed by the work^is l:::Z:r:^:^t^ -^«'^- ^^ railways. Which are not payable until the A N^'xh? '"" ^'^^^-—t pay by lette. on the banks ? been paid ' andTre'S'pS 1^^^":^ "^ ^^*1 *° ""'"P^"'- ' ^^^^ ^-e ^^way. the purpose for which this «um wt v 'ted it ^ -^ «' by Order-in-Coun Ml ; but fo irregular, but... I do not know, butl withe A^, n"""^"''"'' necessary, it may be authorized the affair and I acted. Attorney-General who gave his report which the -Lrofthtr;StTs;o^^^^^^ '^" ^ ^^^-^ ^^^^ ^'- -^^^^ -- lette. Of credit or Q." W^ngr ^"' ^^^^"^^^ ^^^ ^'-'' ''^^^ ■' '^ — ded it. for ittlf.^'' "" ^^™^-^- '^'^ - *" -^ting. but hi. report which is in the record speaks V, Id you examme Mr. Armstrong's claim, against the company ' ^howedittom?hS:ittr.sty:;;:orr^,r «"^-'-^- -->^r. Thom and he approved it. He told me that after nl on t fT'"-' '"'^ '^ '*^« ^"S'"««" hundred nnd neventy-five thousand dollars aco' T\Z \ > '."^'"''"'^ *" ^«"'"S «»« Q- You made no inquiries ? '^t « ™t°r r4;,i,e Sr " "■" "•' ""' -^ ""i"" »'• ^'- -^n»- Q. You made no inquiries w; self ' A. No. Q. You did not examine into the matter ? Q. No, when it came to be .prtifiw,! J>,- „ and .PP... .. M. x.„„, , .s:^^z ZpZu- s .: t„=r ■ u ■J J68 Hon. Pierre Garneau tihcd b\ flu- cDginiers? 'Q. Do you say that this report was A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you certain of that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you got it? A. No. The original is somewhere in the department. Q. How is it that so long a time elapsed between the pasr'-- ,• t... " . ,r-in-Councn on the twenty-third an-l the i.8ue olthe letters of credit on the i-venty^ighth ApriJ, ucof wl.at we, so a» to save time, have agreed to call letters of credit :' A. We made the report Q. Does it appear to bo .,i-ned by the Lieutenant-Governor? A. On the twenty-third, 'here was rrobably all that question of negotiating, of estaMish- mg the account Q. What account? A Mr. Armstrong', .* .count. I do not know, but it must have been between Mr- Armstrong Hnd Mr. Them. Q. Is it not true. Sir, that on the twenty-third of April, Mr. Chrj-sostdime Langelier had a letter from Mr. Thom saying that he would pay Mr. Armstrong's claim up tothesum ot one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars ? A. I did not see that letter. Q. Do you swear that the delay ^vhich occurred between the twenty tlurd and the twenty eighth April was due to the fact that Mr. Armstrong's claim had to be established ? A. I do not remember those details at all. It is possible that it was some tlung like that I do not remember thnt o . Q. Then why the delay ? A. I do not know at all. Q When was it that you were asked for the tirst time to write the letters of - -dit you did write, the two letters ? ' A. Some days after the passing of the Order-in-Cou.icil. Q. Then these gentlemen were no longer in a hurry. You s tted a moment ago that they were in a great hurry, did they wait tw- lays before knowi- how they veregoiue to draw their money ? ^ o e _ A. I cannot give an account of these details. There mav have been a Sunday in the interval, I do not know. ^ Q. When you passed the C)rder-in-r- k '' ^^"^^ '' '""^ ''^^^ «"le'ed a letter. ^''^ '*' ''*''"'"''^ •'' been decided that we should give Q. It is not tme that it w,« prepared in Mr. Machins office ' A. 1 think It was prepared in the Treasurer's or at Q. It .s not true th«t it was Mr. Duhamei who brought'it to yr A. I cannot say, I do not remember that. Q. You do not remember ? A. Nu My memory fails in many detail.. Q. You aow say that your memory fails « ou ? A. Yes. 170 Hon, Pierre Garneau Q- Your memory is not good » O' ?or«il;l" '^''""'- ' ^° "°' ^''"«'"'"- <*" 'he small details. Q. You «poke a moment ago about the Attorney General's rei^rt ? Mr. ?ha'le: Ur^.T °" ^""^'^^^ °^°-'°" >-" ""-'^-ed a report which you had from. A. On this question. I u°r:' t"r :;X:r Sir "" - '-" » "■'' — ^ l,J. Have you that report ? A. That report must be in tiie record. Mr. Cutgrmn ; Mr. E.toS:.;?'"'"""" '■*''■ ^^^^^ *° ''^^'' '^« '-«'d pnxluced after the adjournment by By Mr. CatgrcUn : Q. Mr. Langelier was neither Commissioner of Public Works nor Attorney General ? Q. He was Provincial Secretary ? A. Yes. Q. Consequently his report whs not the one you wished for 9 A. No. I required the Attorney General's report. A. I »ld .0 also, th.. I w»nled to h,v. Ih. Attorney General.. „p„„. Mr. Casgrain .-— I ask the commission that an r)rder be e-ivon tr. fV, any one respecting his evidence duingtJiTiourmitn;"" ""'' '" communicate with Mr. Biiqae :— Mr. Casgrain : — learned confrere, Mr. B^ique. ^ ^ '^™'''^'' ^""^ "«* ^^^ «" addressed to my ^Wr. BHque :— Mr. Vang Gn quest T/ie wUnt May it pi has siiggf-gted Mr. Caggr Before th€ written declarn The sittinj Tlie Horn oil % Mr. Omj Q- Mr, Gan report which yo twenty-first Apri A. I stated t Q. They wer A. Certnin w Q. Have you A. I think b( Q- Will you 1 A. If the Cor Q. Mr. Game eight of the o«ic Minister, and stafc "And upon th whom he reprc-jcn and seeing that th means " Were these wc A. I do not rer Q- You have n A. No, I do noi Q. Now, you Ht hundred thousand Government were a< A. Yes, to secui Q- Now, will yo generally issue per i A. It is genorall («20,000) twenty tho •'V/-- CaDi/rain .— Un questiona of what is croDer r hu.. May it please the Court, I must sav f J,<,f Q- Have you thel^wlTngir/.f "'''' "^" ""' -"P'^^-^- A. I think so. Q. Mr. Garneau will v f ' ^''^ " "° objection. ^- -No. I ,lo not remember if thev were in fh ,- ■ Q. Now, you stated a moment a^o Tnt V P'-^l'^'inary draft. 172 Han. Pierre Garneau ^ I Q. And this roaJ wa« to be about one hundred miles in length ' A. 1 he part in question was seventy miles were^o^iH; r:;t,::;.t „°„?iLt.:':'-'°^ -" •^^« »' '''^ """'"« ''•— A. At that time, yes. infnr^,-^^''" did you ever get a report from the Treasurer or the Treasury denartraent ^hrireZr,^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - - -^- - could pay tb^e X^ amott'co^Jl t ;:r °' ''' "^"''^"* ''' '^"^^^ ^^'^''"^ "^'" '^f'- ^he tin,t of July that Q. ^\ow, will you please state out of what funds these letters in question were paid ' A. Out of the tun.ls arising fr,.m the conversioi. of the (800,000) eight hundred thon. and acres of land which came to (*280,000.00, two hundred and :i,l.lyTJZ^Zna^r' at m^turily" ' '"'' "' ''" *'"' ''' """"'' '' "^^^ ^'^ '^"^™ °' "''''' '" ^-«'^°'^ A. Out of funds then at the disposal of the Treajjurer ? Q. What funds weie then at the disposal of the Treasurer ' A. I think that the Treasurer would be in a better position to state that than myself. be paid ''"" '"'"' ""' '"'^'""^ '" ^"""^ °"* °* ^^^' *'""^« ^hese letters of credit should avaifabllmndr"" '''*'' ''"' *''^' '''"'' '^ '''' '''''''' '''"^' ^^-^^ ^^ere would then be Q. It was you who were then the Treasurer ? A. Yes, but it was not I who was Treasurer at the time they were paid ..ni?' ^^^""7^^ ^'•^'"'"••"r'^t that timo, you must have known out of what funds vou could meet the letters of credit when due, about the tenth of July ? ^ A. Out of the funds voted for railways by the act 54 Vict., chap. 88, see 1 at th^'t^n^ef ''"''' """"' "'^'^ '''''' '""'^ '""''^ '''' ''^"^'^^'«- ^^^ ^-« «till Treasurer A. On the tenth of July, I was not Treasurer. Q. Who was Treasurer ? A. The Honourable Mr Boyer that .8 the act respectmg the consolidated railway fund, is .t not ? ^ ' A. I think so but this special payment was to be made under the act 54 Vict. A. I cannot say. I was absent from Quebec when thcv were naiH • h..t fi,„ ■ . . This is the recommnndation : infavo'^rTThe^BStrChlZ:'^ """^ "*' ^'^^ ^-''-'^ thousand dollar, o 01 ine Bale des Chalours Railway Co. represented by the Union Bank, of Canada, Hon. Pierre Garneau lis being the amount advanced by the Bank to J. C. Langclier, commissioner, by order of the Honourable Commi8,ioner ot Public Works, to pay claims ag-inst the Bale des Chaleurs Kailway company, the same being on account of the couverted land subsidy granted by act 54 Vic. cap. 88, sec 1, p. (j) : under Orders in Council Nos 237 and 238 of April 23-91 " Q. Now, when you made your report to council, you doubtless had read the act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, paragraph j, had you not ? A. Yea, it is paragraph j, I tliink, of 54 Victoria. ^_ Q. Which stated that it was to 'Mid in completing and equipping the Baio des Chuleurs _ Railway, throughout its whole length, lor the part not commenced, and that not finished ^^ about SO miles, going to or near Ga.ip6 Basin, a subsidy of 10,000 acres of land per mile not to exceed in all 800,000, payable to any person or persons, company or companies. ^ establishing that ihey are iii a position to carry out the said works and to supply the roll- ing stock for the whole road and keep it in good working order, etc ; " you took notice of that statute belore passing the Order in Council ' A. Yes. Q. Did you notice that the Order in Council states : 2. To construct and put in operation on or before the Slat December, 18i)2. the one hundred miles of the said railway comprised between Metapedia and Paspebiac, and the remainder as far as Gasp^ Basin as soon as cir oumstances will permit ? You noticed that, did you not ? A. 1 saw that. Yes. *^' '3°^'' f»"°g the negotiations between Mr. Thorn and youraelf, you wrote a letter once to Mr. Thorn ; did you not ? A. Jf 1 wrote to Mr. Thorn, it must be in the official reports ; I did not write any private letter to Mr. Thorn . ' Q. Do you mean in the letter book ? A. The copy must be in the letter book, if it is an official letter. By Mr, Bkique : Q. And if you wrote one ? A, ill wrote. By 3£r. Casgrain :— Q. Is it not true that you wrote to Mr] Thorn a letter in which you told him that you were gomg to settle the matter on the next day or on the day after that ? A I do not remember. If a letter was written, it is to ho found into the records or in tne otnce. Q. You have not it hero ? A. No. Q, You have not it in your house 7 A. No. Q. Is it not true. Sir. that a few days afterwards, on the next day or the day after Mr Thorn came to return you your letter saying to you in English : " Y.mr letter is not worth more than jour word." A. I do not remember Mr. Thoiu saving that to me. Q, Did he return the letter to you? 174 Hon. Pierre Garneau wH«e„ it. '-" "•"- " » .n .h, ,.„<,k,. r <,„ „„. „„e„.b„ h.™, c„„ J,r "'• -- -»- -. i»P.U».. dM .„ ,., .,„ „, ,„,„^ „^ ,^^ „^^^^ ^^ ^^ J . -^ '^'"'""•""np'y to Sign letters r.«uU;b«rd„rr^:LE;iL'Liir *'"'''■■ ""°"" ^». You do not remember that either ? A. JVo. Q. Yes ? A- I >lo not tliiiik so. Q. Mr. f^angelipr ? A. I do not think so. Q. Mr. Duhanie! ? A. I went to my office everv rio,- ,f .i WTown. • '^'-^ '^y-^ ^>- time; I ,o not think that the, came to the Q. Are you certain they did not go? A.Jo the best of mv recolip<-t;,>n t i- 1 Q- ii-.i...v di<, ,, yi r« S;,'„;':ir ™" '^•"■- '■^' ^«o n«t remember. Q- Did they go to your house " A. Not for that matter. Q. Mr. Pacaud wrote me a letter one day Q. Have you that letter ? ^ ' t ' PI Hon. Pierre Garneau irs * letter was, iber having the Order in id continue e letters of y- you paaaed ou a sutti- 8ign letters vent along is correct, ee you in e to the ahoiit A. Xo. Q. Did you destroy it 1 A. I (lestroyt-d it at once. Q. Wliat did it say ? .ooat, I1;",S"" "'"""' ""= «>"■" "■"* ■■ ">« i« »™ import.™ u, .e.,,c the <,ue..i„„ .. y. N..W Sir ahni,, wi.T^ i. '^"^ did not pay any attention to it. H. i> 'w, ftir, about what date was that letter written ' A. 1 hiive not kept a note of that eitlier Q. It was alter il,e pa.^ing of the Order in Council.' A. I cannot exactly say whether it was after or before. wasS^:r,n;r;h:oSrs:i;r"^°*''''^'^"-«'' -^^*' «^« P^ymentwhich t Th:r th: ir :.;^?"r r r::Lsi'^' ^" ' f -^ ^^ -^ "-'• twenty Hrst April? ' " ''""'" ^^^^^««» ^he seventeenth April and the A. I cjinnot say ; it was during that interval but I cannot say the dav Q. It r understand you well then Mr Paf^nri J,o,i • ^' to that he wrote to ynu ? ^'' "" '"'^rview with yo A. Yes, he wrote me that letter Q. \oi( cannot say that either* WhJdn""' 'r'^' ^ *""' *''^ '^"«^ '^^ I 'ore it up. y. \N hy did you tear it up ' •• ' to keep.^'^'^"'" ' ^'™"^^^" '''^' '' -« -^ « very important letter which I should require (l Do you not usually keep your Utters. A. It was a private letter that I had no need to keep Q. But respecting public business. ^' A. It spoke of the question, yes. Q. Business of the depaitnient ? A. Well it concerned the department n ]iffl« K.,f •* * i;^c,„,oc,,,.„ .,„ .„„. j.,„.r;'^ d'^'',-;;';',:;" " ''"■°°"' '°"- Q <>n .vo.i give other J„t,il, ,e,TO,i„g ,,„, |„i„, , Q. That ,t was absolutely necessary to settle " ^ t Aboitt ""' "''"' '' '"''•^ '"-^ «'■ ^''"«« -Preasions. terview with you and in addition I f! 116 Hon, Pierre Gatneau A. No ; he said it whs very impDitant to settle. Q. How is it that Mr. Pacaud wrote t(j you ? A. That does not concern me, I do not' know the matter, I do not know Mr. Pacaud's motives in that matter. Q. It did not surprise you ? A. Well, I must confess that I did not see the reason why heshould write me that letter. y. It astonished you a little ? A. I di.l not see at all the reason of his writing me that letter. Q. That aroused your suspicions ? A. I made no more account of it than 1 took the letter and I destroyed it. Q. That anmsed your suspicions ? A. I thought that there wus mixing himself up with business that concerned the Govern- Q. And WHS it for that reason that you did not like to close the matter? A. Well I do not know... It caused me to go into the details to assure myself that... Q. Did it not also cause you to fear? A. I did not think of it at all. corre^ct ^'''" ^'^"^ "° ^^^'^ ^°'' ^■""'■'^'^' ^"^ ^' "^^^"^ y«" ^^<''- "»at the affair waa not altogether A. Well I cannot say exactly, it only showed that the matter was being pressed. Q. You found that they were pressing the affair considerably, did you not ? A. Thnt is to say a settlement as soon as possible wa« suggested, was asked for. Q. Now, when Mr. Pacaud met you on any of the occasions you h vve spoken of, did he speak to you ot certain liabilities which he was obliged to meet ? A. I do not remember. Q. You do not remember? A. No. Q. Mr. Garneau is your memory usually bad, or is it* usually good ? A. It is bad, I do not depend upon my memory at all. A. Now, did Mr. Pacaud ever show you a list of debts he had to pay ' A. Never. ^ •' " Q. Never ? A. Never. Q. A list upon which there were several names with amounts opposite the names ♦ A. Never. ward??^''' *'' *^" ^°" ^^^^ ''^ '"''' yi<^hmtie, to meet about that time or some time aft«r- A. Never. Q. How does it happeu that you are so positive in .aying that he never showed you a list and when you are asked if he mentioned the fact, you do not remember ? A. Well, because showing a list is a thing that would strike one, and I am convinced t miJhrr'" '"'' T, \'1 '" '''"'' '"'*''''' ^'' «'^«hanged in conversation. I do not remember ; It might happen, but I do not remember it. ' to gc^somrmX'' ""' '" '""' '"'" '''' ^"' ''''' '"* '^^ '^"""'"'^'^ "-«-->' ^^ ^i- ander Ewing aiic Hon. Pierre Garneau 177 If he told you that, you do not remember it ? A. No, he did not tell me that. Q. He did not tell you that ? A. Never. Q. You do not remember that ? A. I do not remember it at all for you to write him a eU r p^mil SthTt rr' '''\!f ^ ^''^"^"'^'^ — ->• the day after and therefore yrro^theTeUer . ' "' "°"^' '^^^"'^^ '""^ °-' ^^^ - A. If I wrote the letter it is copied somewhere. A San? ? wrJ:;. '''T ""' ''"'" ""' '« ^"^ ^-"^-•^^ that ? q: j^"'^ ":r :^r ;t;^^^^ ^ «^- -m. A. Oue wrues so many that one cannot remember them all " without that you would not have parsed the OrlrTn Ccunci l" ^ '"""P'"^' '^** ^^ A. As to their qualification and ability to do the work.' That was the informationi Q. You were perfectly satisfied ? A. Yes, with my colleagues, we were satisfied. y. You had taken all necessary information ? Q. As much as possible. firstlpSf'*''^'"'"^" "'^""^" "«-P"-^ ^«'-.V- had made your report 0^ A. Yes. " Hon. Mr. Garneau, Department of Public Works. (Signed) JAMES COOPER. " Q. There was no company formed U the time / A. No, all the shares had been transferred n d iho ro,-,.i„ i- that day. rai'Sieuoa^ a,hcl the regular meeting was to be held on 12 178 Hon. Pierre Garneau \ Q. JJow, do you notice *hat the leleKram says ; " Mr. Thom is acting under instruc- tions from me and my associiites." Was tiiat an answer to a notice in which you asked him by what authority Mr. Thom was acting ? A. It was to satisfy myself that Mr. Thom really represented the directors. Q. And that was after the passing of the Order in Council. A. Yes, but we had had information before that. Q. Now will you listen to the reading of this letter, which ia in the record. Quebec 23th Apnll891. To THE Hon. Pierke Gaknkau. Comtnimonev of Public Works and Prime Minister ad interiem. The undersigned has the honour to report that he has carefully examined Mr. Thorn's proposal of tlie seventeenth April instant, by which he offers to n'organizotlieBaie des Chaleurs Railway Company and to carry on r.he works of conistructidn ; that the said proposal is perfectly in conformity with the provisions of the act 54 Victoria chapter 88 and specially with subsection J of section lal. Tlierefore the undersign^ J has the honour to conclude that the whole question is for the Government to jiscer,.ain, whether the Company which Mr. Thom proposes to re"-ganizp, offers sutiicient financial guarantees. (Signed) .T. E. EOBIDOUX, Attorney General, By CHARLES LANGELIER, Fo7 the Attorneij General." Q. Do you remember having received that letter? A. Yes, I saw that. Mr. BHque ; — There are some members here who seem to make it their duty to laugh at the name of Mr. Charles Langelier, I do not see anytliing th&t should occusion laughter and I think , Your Honours, it is not proper. Hon. Mr. Justice Jettt : — I have noticed since the beginning that there have too often been nmiiirestations on(^ way and another. We regret the mii.nner in which certain feelings are indicated. In a grave matter like the present I think that we ought all to be serious ; we are working in the interest of the public and it is a very important matter which requires seriousness. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Is that Mr. Chnrles Langelier's report of which you si)oke to the Lieutenant-Governor •nd which is mentioned in the letter? A. I think m. Q. A-ve you nine. A. Yes. Tlie I Robidou.x e.'chibit I By M Q. W To THE H /■• 8lK. You V by the Bii approved I 1st. W ment prodi Company. i. Th cerulicate, these gentl Cirtillcate i m ikes proc The certitic representin with a!i thf the whole c citrol the 2nd. Li the coiivers: at its last s( A. I an voted to the in qnestion which belon voted by tht not voted to person or coi des Ciiaieiir,'- leurs lliilwa represented 1 them tlio sul impose any < money. .\8 to question of li that thoGov( have dej)08it Hon. Pierre Garneau 179 exhibit No. 11. ' ' ^'*'^''^^" ''"ndie 1 and ninet.y one is fylo' cu-tiiicate under the term, of article TllTauZT T^. ""'^°''"'^ "' '^^'^ «""-''^- T»'« md.es proof before all courts ^l^^:^^::::^^^ T' ^'''"'''' "' ^i^""-' Ti.e certificate now shewn me and whfoh w S be tro the C I"""'' '"? k '""' ^''"^^'"• representing the gentlemen with whom the oZ-ve^mTnt ea r '"'"? ^' ^^'^ ^'""" with a!) the conditions required and to ostab is t^e po" "ssion^^^^^ r" ™' ''■ """^''^ the whole stock of the Co.npanv. Accordin-^ to tl J c rMr ? ? " °^ '"'"'" '^'^''^'^'^•* "f c >.trol the B.ue ' -'^^- ^^'t necessary that the company sliouldliive by a resolution of if « H . vote^;JrzL^^;::,r'y:i,ro;4r::i;^P3:s^^ in question, for then, it may be e.wilv"understool " 7'^f '\* V , '"•"P''"' '^'""'^ ^''» which belongs to it nor could its nature Ue h g j wi^ho^iircotlnT^ r1 1 "" '''''''' voted by the statute of last session (.31 Victoria, clap er 88 i not o thi« . ? ""r"'^ not voted to the Ba e des Chaleurs Railw,>v Ti „ p... • '" ^''»"'''acter. It g person orcompanywhomsoeve;:,:;c;^i"7;i^:,l:r:Sl^^^ des Cuaie.irs Riilway and to pay the lawtVil delfl ,11? u ''''''''' ^'l'"f'*''''B'^ie leurs Railway Comnany, If the Government itr^H^ "^^ ^^ "^^ "'"'' •'■"•^ ''«'^ <^^'"^ represented by Mr. Thom. are if r™ ," , in 'if £" cTdlu " '";""""■ ^"" '^^« them the subsidy in question, an 1 , us thev mav r e o « nt i^ t v"' "' '""' ^""■"^ impose any conditions they ple,«e, and amon./othe t Ifo ' ^v " '"'II' '" ''"'"''"« '^' money. As to .tsc.rtaining whether these gentle,r,norf„; *^°"^««'"g the subs.dy nuo question of law, it is a question of ao to b k d t U. T'""" ^'""'^"'f '^« ^'^'^^ '" "'^^ '^ that thoGovernmont have in their possessL i^,K 1^^ '-(government and i tn.dersland Jmve deposited ^xs security. P°««««»^"" «^«0.0"0 of debentures which these gentlemen 180 Hon. Pierre Garneau this lulZT? ""' '° '"" '"" '''" ^^^^^""^-^ should make the payments on account of o.ntij^Z'a.eG^^:^^r'' ^^««'^' 't^-- •'• ^^^' the iawful debt, none thequestion -itisbyrrtrLn T^ '^°^' '^^ '"^""«'- "^ ^^"ling *->«n(w»noM»v, ,;. j u . """'^'^^^^^.'^y to add that the Treasury should not go bevond thn I have the honour to be Sir. Your Obedient Servant, L. J. CANNON. Amslant Attorney General. A. Yes Sir, that was confirmed by the Attorney Gfinprnl Into, t* ,., that nature that the Government acted ith ^k tLf M,^ k ^ "P*"" * '^^'''^''^ stated. ^rnraent actea. 1 think that that corroborates everything I have Q. Is that the Attorney General's report '' Gentl" '""' "'"'" "" ''"°""" "P°^' •'^"^^^ *h"^- ^^'-* " f-" the Deputy Attorney Q. That o. is the twenty fourth Aprih after the Order in Council had been passed. Q. It was not before the Order in Council was passed' A. This is after. Q. You still hesitated ? opinbn.' '"'"'' ''""' ''' ''"''''°" ^'^'^ '•^'° ""''"'"^^ ^^^-^ -"•' 'here had been a verbal Q. Did Mr. Cannon give you verbal instructions ? A. Ii) any case it was upon information of that kind that the Government acted Mr. Fral;r La. :gX? ""^^^™' '''' '^^ ^^' ''^ '^"^ ^^ ^'^^ «« tSed by A. I think that Mr. Frangois Langdier's opinion was asked at the time. A. On th A. I dor Q. This i L. J. Cannq.v, Asa Dear Sir, Iha/e tak( Garneau upon i A. Yes. Q- You had A. Yes. Q. Will you A. I hare n( duced. The copi( officers of the dej and that of Mr. I Q. You have letters that you r A. Yes. Q- On the tw Mr. Kobidoux ? A. Yes. Q. Will you o.'' April 1891fyled " 7830. Jteport of the Att The Honourab Genoral upon the reference to the Ba: certain subsidies v ^t is principally 1st. Wliat right Order in Council No 2nd. Whnt clFc Council have upon t: Hon. Pierre Gam, tail 181 A- On the twenty fourth of April" -i. 1 do nf)t remember. Q- This is the letter is it not ' I'' J. Canno.v, Esq., A^mtant Attorney General, QiKBKj, 24th April 1891. Dear Sir, Quebec. I ha /e taken communication nf ti.„ •■ «-... upon .„e B.e .. aZ:is^z ;i;t!::fr '° "« «™""'""« *• Yours verv trulj' A. Yes. ^'^'"'^ " ^«ANCOTS LAKC.ELIEK. Q- You had knowledge of this letter also? A nil' ''°" ^'b ^"'' ^ "°Py °f these letters Q- On the twenty-eiehth n( Ar^^,■I , , M. HoMd^o,,, , ^' /83n. ^^^'^ BAIE DES CHALEURS RAILW iY 182 Hun. Pierre Garneau ^^^^^''^^^''''^''^^.S^-^f^ithemb.idy, it i. l.lt to the Executive to decide uron the personB or co.upany m whoa, lavor it would be definitely disposed of. The Order i . M sub'i'di; 1o eT t'Tr'rV" ''^ '•^^"■r''"^^"' «'"^' '^^ ^^'^''- «-^->' con.;:„ ; ;;; ; ' J e ror. nn , '' '''""' "' "" ^^^i^'"^'"^^'- ^^ "i^l i" the completion o that r art of the road upon which works of construction had already heen begun, and in the con.^ i on of that part rernuuung to be done, in the equipment of the road and in the pavn e t . f the b statuTes ' t TT" ''■?" '' "'^^ '''''' ^""^-•- '^'^'^^ "'-•'»' «'• 'ho suhs-^ v . The olr in r"" ^ °' '"'' '""°" " '"'''^^ S^""'«' ^^ ^he reconstituted con.panv. of th. P "incialTe '"'-ri 7"" ^'^ ^^P"'^' "''^ "^''«'^*'°" '" ^l^P-'^ i" ^hc Imnds been m^tde '"" ^'^^^"*"^^« *■"'• ^^"^^ «""' of ^.-,0o,UO0. This depo.-it has already Coon^i" /"p T" "'^'iT Order-in-Council. sets out the written proposition of Messrs Jan. Cooper J. P Dawes, Alex. Ewmg, James Williamson, Angus M Tho.n on behalf o^h rS T:rr'' '^ '"" '^"'^ "^'"P'^'^ ^^^^ «-« ^'- Chaleurs Railway ncenain CO. dmons, and the last part of the Order-in-Council is an acceptance by the G-Lnmcn d i'r^ThLoff ' "7T'- " ^"'""'^'^ ^" the Government in wri^ga aetined oHei. Ths offer was accepted on certain conditions bv the Order in Touncil A S'to hid;t'ro?"'f' w„« fowarded to the company which oo^l withX 'ondt session m e ,. r " ' ' "''"^ '^'^"''"^ "'^^ "^''t to the subsidy vot. d last ?Z h r "^ "'' ^ P^"'" '"■'■ '■*°' "^"d consequently it is in a position to exact " indr^Tr'n ' r ^'^^""'^^ '^^ ^'^- ^^^ ^'•^i^'^tions which they conZ^d > (S^! 8 m° ou t thl r «°^«"""*^f ,^«'-'- ^° ^-e'^^e to earry out the Order-in-Council there 1T.1 , f <^o'"P^ny woul,l. l'.,.oa claim i. damages ag.in>t the Governn.ent whch would he condemned to pay a sum equal to the proL which the c unpZ 2 have reauzed in carrying through the enterprize to ,he end. Such being mv opink" on tlL two preceding questions, I .sec no other issue for the Government than to l^ a^d com teU- carry out the Ordei-in-Council of the 2;iid April. huu c ompitteij Thereis another question which is not especially within my competency but unon whinh my views have been asked. Is the contract cont.iued in the C)rier-in.Co 3'of 1 SkI t^U msV.drr.VT''.':"'^"'"""'^''^''^'' '^-^^ present when the Orier-iic!^^: if ' ft ll~^^^^ t. lapp ove It lor two reasons: First, because I think that it was of the highest in or ThTL on 1 "r'" '^'''"'" ^"^■'^^^•^' ^'^°"'^' '-- ''-" '-!-" iVonr the I , p r s:=n----z:Tc^^^^^ (Signed) j. e. ROBIDOUX. Attorney General. A That is the report to which I alkided this morning'; that Mr Rohidoux w>h «,V1- nf that tune and that he could not make hi.s report. He had knowTedgo o h who e t.f action, nit he was m bed ; he wrote his report a few days afterward, ;hen he was betten y. On the twenty eighth of April ? A. Yes, Hon. Pierre Garneau 183 hat point ? 'stion should be settled A. Tol^'' '*""' ''"^ "' ^^"^ '^"^ '^"^" '"■'''■^'"' ^^^^ issued. against the Governmel whicrwo 1 ^ ^ '"T^^^^ claim in damage, ;;;uch the oo.p„n;3t L^reS n^ ^^^1^17,/ ^"'^: •^' T I' ''T. Why was the AttonK,v General called upon to givi his ' "Ifon '"'"' '' '''^ '"^ ' at once to put the people in possession of the road Q. You c.nM- lered that that whs verv important ' A. Yes . r . Q- All . you had doubts ? and ?he i!;.^;";?"" ^^ " ''''"'^''''' ^^ '^^ P--« °f ^^e Order in Council between you A. Yes it WHS to know if wo should pay the money. A. Ihrtt 18 aiiuther Q. If you had doubts or .,ny hesitation whence did thev arise. A. I do not remember all these li't'iilw T i,,.ii., i ► ./ . . wished to satisfy nivselfthat vrw ' *" ""^ ^"estion in all its bearings ; I Q What I do n : T 7 ."' ""'^ '""'"' ''''■"'■'^ completing the transaction, you tlf now ttrlen tro^v^^^^^^^ experience often years in the Government, made to then, an^ Jnl^mont Zr^ir^^"" O^^'-in-^'^ncil, accepting proposal. Attorney (iene ml i., lTTe\iTfh ^' n """u ' " ^P'"'™ °^'*^^ department of the to carry-out that Ordlr^vCouncil' ' '""" '"' ''"'' '^^" "^"'^ h^'*^"- - ^o- P-* q: w^;^;::^, ti::: ^-^^^^^ ''''-'''' - - ^- *^- «-« ^^^-^ ^-e been. A. J^->-lf wished to be perfectly satisfied that everything was absolutely in order. Q. Did Mr. Pacaud's visits contribute to your hesitation ? A. No I do not think so, because I thought them of no account. y. A moment ago you .said it astonished vou ' Q. It had given rise to some fears in your mind ? A. Well, I cannot say that it give nm nnv Hii'nr, f^ r u . -. Q. That made you reflect ? ' ' '"' '"* '' ''''''' "« '' ''''''^'' A. Yes. Q. That is why you again a.ked the opinion of the Attornej^General ' only on tire twenty-eighth 1 the At or'el r'pn T ^'"'T^'f' ^ ^""^ ^'^ ^^""«" «?'"!«"• .een dated on the t.ly-Uiird oXZ^X'-^:^:^.^^:^:]^^^^ 'W / '% V / IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 11.25 2.0 m u t I. wuu 14.0 U 11.6 l-lrir\frkrTnr»-r-kr»i/-» X llUiiL^iCUJillU ^Sciences Corporation 4^ S M \\ 23 WBT MAIN STRUT WnSTIR.N.Y. Msao (716) 873-4903 ''li^ .A '%^ '^ l/.A 1 184 ^'^^' Pierre Garneau I must have informed the I ' ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^========: Q. On the t„„„ty 1 °''°" '"""«'• '^"»™»yOeneral ratiBod what had mence and go ahead ani.r' , .f ''"' '''P°«'*«'' "« security S'th^ ^'' "° ™^' V- un the twenty tliirri a -i v. • '""'uoc shares. ' "" ^^« -'-'"-ate, it is of record somewhere, thev h.,d%> O Willv 1 ''^^'^^'^''f'e majority of the i. «W a, E.Sf 'S'°" '- "■» ™-'"^ "'■ "■■■' -*a.e and a...e iri. r. ,ha. „„ ,. Ii« Of Sh^eholder. Of .he Bala d.. CW.„. Eai,..,. Number Of Shares T r. subscribed of $50 *.. James Cooper' tnich. Amount. Samuel Shack, veil"."!.'."!";." o5o" *o^,„ A. Mc I. Thom 20 *"'^"^«" ^ Hobt. H. McGreevy.;; 100 I'T "^ A. Mc I. Tom, i„ tn;;;:;:.r:: m ',z Z "• '• ^- ^-"-^^ :::::::::::::::: '^ ^Z Z ^ 5,0(10 00 I hereby certify that t!ie authorizpri n •. , "'"'^^ «300,000 00 ^- A. ROBITAJLLE, Hon. Pierre Garneau 185 rt. because he fiod what had Jen a question Council which that is t(j say i>out read> at 'ney, as they 3 letter came 3tocnrry out these points inlorniation, in I had the ive no risk, will com- woni to say on, a« was ^ and those you were 8 had the "ty of the at one. It Amount. 27,rm 00 1,000 00 -'5,000 00 !3,000 00 8,500 00 5,000 00 ',000 00 taihvay er. I think. I saw Mr. A. Thnt is the certiHcate I saw. I did not see any other, Q. Is Mr. Dawes on it ? A. I do not, see Mr. Dawes', name. Q. Mr. Williamson's name waa not on it? A. No, Mr. Dawes and Mr. Willinmson's camo a lew days later Dawes later. That is the certificate I saw, I did not see any other. Q. Mr. Ewing was not either ? < The witness does not answer. Q. Will you listen to the reading of this letter dated Quebec, 'i.Srd April 1891, from Mr. J. C. Langelier to you, of which you will kindly fyle a copy as Exhibit No 16 and which is* m the iollowing terms : TiiK Hon. P. Garneau, Treasurer ad interim and Commissioner of Public WorH. Quebec, 23rd April 1891. Sir, According to his letter of the 17th instant and to theOrder-in-Council No. 237, dated the 23rd, Mr. Angus Tliom hna handed me : Ist. A certificate estitblishing that he and his associates are holders of the majority of the shares ot the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, that is to sav that they have the transfer ol the charter and are about reorganizing the board of directors, as they bound themselves to do in their letter. 2nd. Over $500,000 of debentures of the Company as a guarantee of the execution of their obligation as stipulated in tho letter and Order-in-Council above mentioned. I forward all these documents to you, Sir, so that thty may be deposited as you may think proper, and that you may give a receipt therefor to Mr. Thorn. Now, Mr. Thom represents to me that it is absolutely necessary that the payment of the debts oi tho company should be immediately commenced out of the 1280,000 mentioned in the Order-in-Council so as to allow of his getting everything straight, as soon aa possible and of his organizing the work necessary to finish the road as far «« Paspebiac. I am ready to commence making these payments at once in conformity with th' Order-in-Council entrusting me with that duty under such instructions ua you may be pJea«-d to give me If you (lecido to proceed at once be good enough to cause the required funds to be placed at my disposal. No time should be lost, seeing that the Order-in-Council requires that the uncontested claims should all be paid not later than the tenth of May. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your very humble servant, J. C. LANGELIER, Commissioner." A. Yes. , Q. That is the letter by which the list of shareholders was sent to you ? A. I think so. It is an official letter. Q. The letter was sent to you after the passing of the Order-in-Council ? A. It was on the twenty-third. It was on the same day in any case, the twenty-third. u i 180 Jion. Pierre Garneau Q. The report w.vs made on the twenty-first' A. ^.. but completed on the twent>Hhird ' Q.Y^..e,o..twasrnadeonthetwent;Htt, , Q- ^ai„,;:;;T:';::^^rtr-threeday.toeom^^ Q- Mr. Pac.iud ? A. le,,I.„ Mr. Thorn ,•„,•„;„„. A. Vo,,,ir.|,ei, „)-„„„„„„„, W. leiiiicions. is lie not » A. Ho walcl.ad |,i, l,u,i„,,„. J- ™ "■'*l'«l very i-loaely ? A. I do not know. '"' '" «» J™ '» 'he be.l of j„nr knowle,!.. ' «. Boiweenthet\ventv.lliini«n,l.i. . A. I .10 not remeinbc, '»«nty.eightl, ? Q- Was he there every ,|ay > ^'Vl^r^F^ "™"''"'"^ -''- -—..erthe A. "v; rx''.t'' "■" '"" "- "'^ -o- o, hi„ , A:S''»rT;!''"°™''''''°'~''"»°ftener. * H. .I.rc„.e„;" rCt'Cttrr"''"- ' "■»-< '.i- When , h„, ..„.. A- NO.J t.,1,1 hin, th . „e ™ /, !", f- i ''" '""• "«l" "T? " ?■ Vo.. told , no, tolr"''' *""" " " ""■ P«il'lo. A. I do not know if, to n ; do not leave. !„,„., Hon. Pierre Gatneau 187 ■■ passing of tlie ir collegues Mr. of tlie letters itli April, the •e upon which the Order-in- issiiod. You Ige? r the mun- l tell them time. not Q. Is it not true that you made use of fhis words : " For God's sake don't go ; I'll settle right off?" A. No, I did not say ; •' For God's sake, don't go " That is not an expression I am in the habit of u.sing. Q. Or something in that sense ? A. No. I may have told him not to leave, that the aH'aii' could be settled. I did make use of that expression. I am not accustomed to make use of such expressions. Q. This was oppo.site the St. Louis Hotel ? A. I do not remember. Q. 1 remember it very well. A. Were you there ? Q. Perhaps I whs— Do you remember that ? A. I do not remember having seen you. Q. Do you remember having seen Mr. Thom. A. I said 80 this morning. Q. With Mr. Armstrong ? A. It was the only time I met him. Q. That was when he told you he was leaving for Montreal ? A. He wished to leave. Q. You asked him not to leave, that you would settle the question ? And Mr. Pacaud arrived in the meanwhile ? A. Mr. Paciiud was parsing in a .ehicle and Mr. Armstrong went along with him. Q. Mr. Thom went with you ? A. No. He did not go far with me ; he went into the hotel and I went on home. Q. Besides Mr. Charles Langelii ., Mr. Robidoux, Mr, Duhamel, Mr. Ross, Mr. Thom andMr. Pacaud. were there any others who spoke to you, to solicit you, or who asked you eithv-r to i ar-a the Order in Council or to issue the letters of credit ? A. No. I do not think so. I do not remember. Q. Are you certain? A. I do uiit remember. • Q. I wish yon to recall this to yoiu' memory ? A. I do not see th^t it concerned ai y one else. Q. That may be true, but I ask you to remember what passed and sny whether other persons spoke to you about it, or solicited you either to pass the Order-in Council or i.-^sue the letters of credit or to pay ? A. To the best of my knowleilge, I say No. Q. To the best of your knowledge? A. I say No to the best of my knowledge. Q. Are you certain ? A. I think I can positively state that no person spoke to me about it. Q. Did Mr. Edimard Garneau speak to you about it? A. No, never. Q. Neither specially nor generally ? A. He never spoke to me about this mutter or not to settle it. Q. He did not speak to you concerning it ? A. No. ( 188 Hon Pierre Oame, ever infl^L-TL ^ "l";"" "°"''"'= •<■ "■""o". H m .h.. . "'' that I have no objection to produce all th • P oduceaIlthecop.es that may Be necessary. p KT ^^"^'"^c. 24th April. 1891 E MoREAu, Esquire. ^^^'X-tor 0/ Railways. Dear Sir, I'l order that there mav ho • "ipulMedinthcmWn!, ■ '"'»»«•'' »' 7(1 ct». per acre ,f,! '^ »""•' "f I«nd «.e ,.id „,de.'" "'" "*'-CouneU No. «, .„ ,-; P.^dlolrS;r;«:e1r; Z I remain, Your obedient servnnt. (Signed) A. Mc. THOM." IM«S|»nB»KW(^> Hon. Pierre Garneau 189 the never said to 'soliciting nie to e than that. ; to settle ; but '" the sense of A. I think this is perfectly correct. Q. Did you receive that letter ? A. Yes. Q. Did you know of Mr. Moreau's letter in reply to the one I have just read to vou addressed to Mr. Thorn, and dated the twenty fourth of April (1891) eighteen hundredand ninety one, of which you will produce a copy as Exhibit No. 18, and which is in'the following terms : L. E. No. 1360. I. R. No. 638. L. R. No. 647. Department of Public VVokks. Railway office. QUEBEr, 24th April 1891. "• No person s. Neither he are that, but I twenty.fourth I'y produce a t5e necessary. rii, 1891. rder of the "y in coin- eel obliged ion of the ic, ch. 88 ; ipletion of 'een miles i 20 miles, 8 of land claims as ■ terms of A. M. Thom, Esquire, The Bate dea Chaleun Railway Company, Montreal. Dear Sir, I have to acknowledge yours of this date, in which you aak me to state whether the subsidies to be paid your Company, in compliance with the terms of the Order-in-Council No. 237 dated 23rd April instant are to be paid in the following manner : 1. $50,000 on com- pletion of the bridge across the Grand Cascapedia River in accordance with paragraph I of 54 Vict., ch. 88. 2. «50,000 on completion of the 10 miles section between miles 60 and 70 • 170,000 on completion of the 10 miles section between miles 80 and 90; $70000 on com' pletion of the 10 miles section between miles 90 and 100. 3. The secured 35 c. per acre on the 200,000 acres earned on the fir.it 20 miles to be paid as provided by law. 4. Tlie balance unexpended of the 800,000 acres of land voted last session converted into cash at 70 c per acre after payment of the claims as stipulated in the Order-in-Council No. 237 to be paid according to law and the terms of the said order. In reply I am to state that the above subsidies according to Sec. 5 of the Act 52 Vict., chap. 86 and to the other acts referred to in said Order-m-Council are to be paid in the manner above described in conformity with the terms of the said Order-in-Council. I remain, Your obedient servant, (Signed) E. MOREAU, Director of Railway ». A. Yes, Sir, that is perfectly correct, I recognize those two letters belonging to the department "Payable according to law" that was a vote of the two preceding years that is correct. ' Q. Now, Sir, did Mr. Chrysost6me Langelier ever make a report to you on the claims which he paid ? A. He made reports from time to time and he prepared one which was asked for about eight days ago to complete it. He made a report up to the month of July. I do not know if he made any since ; he has completed his report now, he can account. •M." 190 ! I h ii Hon. Pierre Garneau £^;;t'iir-:;rtr:t&i~^ L. E. 1306. i- R. -Xo. (i3.«. Dkpartment of Punuc Wobks, J- C. LangkIvIer, E.s(i. D^^^yHegistrnr of the Province, Sir, Q"el)ec. QlEBKc, 24th April, 18[»J. confbnnity with the';):^^^:.^,^":^:^^^ '''' f^^ "^ ^^«^- R^:;;l^f '■ "'• toauthorze you toatnnnnn„ • •^"- -^'' Paa^ed on the "3r'' "» or suh-contracto,. ofthe B^^tli^lfrlTl''' ^""^ ^^ "^« -mpa.^oTbv tht' ^ ^'''^^ 20th and 70th miles beyond he IhJil T ?""''"^'' "'' "'' "^« section, of thi ,^ , r*'"''"" to the prescriptions and co , i, '"" ^"^''''Pedia in the clirecti n o P , "*''*^"" "'« ;;^en you wiif be i„ r^" In t "5::^ Si/", ? ^^^^ ^^^^rci^r ^r^^'"^"^ thereof, „f the privileeod f,l«im. ,. i „!.^ ''""*''^'' st'^tements, w!,., ,.„.. '^°- .^•^'- And ~ ,""'"■* ^ 'ct., Chap. S8, sec. 1 nar T T , 7'""^" ^^o. 1^37, ar of 300,000 jicres "ed ,n the san.c statute, o^n Tl-l/ifr!' '''"'r^' !«r a distance of 8o -nes, as r the said; -^^r vouchee., on the resul of o„ ''""'■• ^^'''^ "^ «-'--' '-Po t s >nno,t k"'*^ P**''' ""^ «'' conditions set fbrth?naioTr?''r''°"-'' "" ^^'^'^^^ Hccordin7to the n '' '"''^^'^ ^-^^ par. J. The exnen J, ^^ I'.P^IT.'"-^"""^'' ^^o -'37 and said Act, 14 v!ct , JhT"^ ' ""'' par or H^siiiislili " I remain, sir, " Yours, etc.. "P- GARNEAU. Q. That is your letter of instructions '^ " ^°'"'«'«w«cr." A. Yes sir. on £. il'rXS'i™ *" " - .ha. M. Ch,,«,„, ,.„,..,,.. ^^^ A. I was shown Mr Arm,frnn - ""^P"'"' """ .ocou... „,.,„„„ .„«,., ,„..,„_^ __^^ ^^^^ Hon. Pierre Garneau 191 elier which is at page rnor and the Pri„,e ^•ith April, iSKj. •Council No. i'38, ,,c ilwayComj)any,'in '.I think it pTOpet id to decide which by the contmctors s load hetween the spebiac, according cil No. 237. And menta in support hich you will be ■ t'le Act therein is you shall wnnt Jr whicli a judg. ns of requisitions ■; on the subsidy i by the statute a distance of 80 me. on demand, liave paid out of by receipts and rescriptions and hap. 88, sec. 1, 'aims approved fiO'iey and paid EAU. Commissioner." lado a report ■ had agreed upon a settlement and Mr. Thorn gave me the account certilied by all the authorities ; he said that it was the account he wished to settle, he agreed with Mr. Lannelier and Mr. Lan- geiier paid it. Q. That is all the report you had. A. For that transaction Q. You have had no others ? A. I ihink that the certified account lurms part of the road. Mr. Thi.m and Mr. Lange- her agreed upon this account as upon all the others. I saw that it was signe 1 by all the competent authorities ; it was paid. I had no other with respect to that, (i. That is all you have had in the way of a report from Mr. Langelier upon that claim ? A. Yes. Q. When did you Hrst hear of Mr. Armstrong claims ? A. It was during th- negotiations with Mr. Thorn, I knew nothing of it before. Q. Yon heard about it ? A. Yes, I knew nothing of it before. I think it was at that time Q. Is it not true that on tlie twenty fourth of April, you received from Mr. Chrysos- t6rap Lingelier the letter, a copy of which is produced as Exhibit No. 19 and which reads as loUows : 24th April 1891. Thk Honourabi.k Pierre Garneau, Commininoner of Public Work^t, Sir, I have the honour to forwaitl you the list of claims produced before the Government but not paid agamst the Baie des Chaleius Railway amounting to «.")7.073.54 to say : Against the lirst GO miles 38 679 ' ' Against the section K 18 393 a> *o7,073 54 There are probably other claims which will be produced when we commence the payments. I have the honour to be, Sir Your obedient servant ^i (Signed) J. C. LANGELIER. A. Yes, there were the claims of the workmen, the persons who furnished supplies boardmg house Keepers & etc ; as to the other, it wa« Mr. Thom who got Mr. Langelier to approve it. Q. That is the only fact you mentioned to the Lieutenant Governor, vou never snoke about the Armstrong claim. ' A. I do not think I spoke of these even. I said that there were debts. I do not think .1* ....At 192 ffon. Pierre Game. A" the lawful debts were to be paid that I showed the list tn ^k t • out 01- these iunds "'^ I^'eutenant Governor Q; Bid you know or M,..MacFarla„e. Cain. :> A:S?trarrk''"^''^'^''«^o"t«t. ^7'^::^r;£iti~ ^^ - be.. '"ner the deponent saith not. ^ ^'^ commenced before. Edouard Moreau ebta were to he paid that it was before '8. ho would HettJe. 9ar. re. 198 of pS^ ^T^:^:^Z^l?^::I'r'' -^^^^-^^ ^^ ^'- «epan.nent dothdepo.efln,l8ay: ^ ' ""^'^"'^'"'°'" "P"" »''« H°'y Kvangel^ts, liy Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— A. Ye« S^r'"' '"" ''' '" "'' '"""' °^ '•'' '''"''"'''*' ^^o^^^^-"-^. "e you not* Q. You belong to the Department of Public Works ? A. Yea, Your Honour. Q. Railway branch ? A. Yes Your Honour, head'tfit!'""'""'"'^"^"" "« ^he chief employee in that branch, you are at the A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Under the title of director ? A. Director of railways. A:Y::trr;::'^^""''^"°^'^^ • A. ?eT ''"" "''''" "^^^ " '''°'^ ''^'"^ ^« '^'^"^'^ *h« «^i« d«« Chaleurs record y A ?t^i!''.n' '' '*"!,* T['^ '""'P^''*^ ^ ^ *^^* ^* J'°" l^^ve before you. ^^^ A. It . composed ol a large number of papers referring to the Bde des Chaleurs Rail- A Thrfrr" ''f '"^ '^' I''' *'^^"«-«ti°" of the Baie de. Chaleurs ? .nd IS:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ eig-eenhundred and e:ghty-seven, but I placed it in the record, as it i: Zr^lZ^H T^^^^ Q. Can you give us a list of that series of papers ' Mr. Beique : — I suggf«t that the record be placed in the hands of the clerk «o fha* «, u u, take from it those papers t hat may be useful. ' ** ""^ """^ ''^ *'''« '° Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Of .h,' disrx'' ■""""' '"' "" '""°° ""» " •" '"" ■=•■"«• »' ". "o -"• « H.. The Witneaa:— p^uee cop,. „a.. -sv^:?rr,rr::»:-.^^^^^ 18 ' Im^M 1 I ^^' ^1 it'll' f m IH Edouard Moreau ii I Jion. Mr. JuMice Bnby ._ 7%^ Witness : — -•-^'''^'«'^"'- -It^ t:;^^ .ron. U. Mterbook or ,otter hoo.« A. ^es, they are nil there. Order in Co.:; -m;::;?^^^^-^^"^^''^ ^^-^-^- ^- Honour, .eca,.e the answer i. th . from mouth to mouth .. to speak. ^'^^"^^'•"'nont, the whole transaction was mad.. Q. In that correspondence can we finH th^ f i Ho„„u™,,,e„.H„Mdo„,.,„u,,„:Lt'wr^::S„l;r "^ «">"..^0,„e„,, .,. -V. 1 ea, Your Honour. Q. Are the instructions of Hnn \t^ r> •nissiouer there ? """• ''''•• '^'^"^^'^^ *« Mr. Chrysost6me Langeh'er a.s Com- A. Yes, Your Honour. />'.'/ J//-. Casgrain : Q. Is there not another report of Air n r '^'''''' °^ "^^ «««'^*°"- those which were printed ? ' °' '''■ ^^"'"'^^ ^•^"^-'>«'- -^ich wa. not printed, bedsides The inquiry made bv Mr. Charles To^ r report; it was never printed ? ^^^Se\^er ,, commissioner is not in his printed Edouurd Mureau 196 and we will takt rrespondeiice e.\- corresiiondonce. V or letter hooks answer is the at propof al ? :tion was made y General, the ?eliera.s Coni- this record? vas appointed teen hundred a pamphlet reports, if r n. nted, l>e8ido8 ^^) eighteen > Honorable »nd Rrtilway !en hundred Ills printed ![on. Mr. Jitsticn Jetti : ■ No it is the report itaelf. % iVr. Cagyraiii .•— A. \ ia, yes, doubtleae. (2. Have all the covers belonging to this record here, been included in the record ■> A. No. I kept thetn m the o.Hce so a. to control the papers which I deposit ' .'/'/•. Cusf/rain : - coveL"""" "' '"' Commission that an order be given for the pro Edouard Moreau Q. Have y„„ described that paper" ^^^' ""^^'^ ^"^^ ^^°ted. ^ ^' ' A. No. Q. What was this paper ' A. It is perhap. the twentyS '^•^"'^•'^'^d. Q. iXow, Mr. Moreau, where ar,. i\.^ ■ . A- W, have „„, .egU.er "'4 „»:»"'''" "' '"^ ""«» >- "»"e i" .... ,e..„ l«„ , ^/r. Casgrain:—- I would a«k the production of the letter books. Ho7i. Mr. Justice Baby ;-_ Yes, the letter books must be produced. Mr. Riopel .•— I want to nsk Mr. Moreau with r The Witness .— Do you allude to the new or to the old Mr Riopel:— company. The correspondence is in connection with \fr t ,• A. I put in it very few of the letted- TconM ^''"^^''.^'•'« '"eport. to the transaction of to day that \Ttl ' , '"^ ""' P"* '" »" the conies a\UH andninetyone. ^' *'"'*"' *° "^y of the month of April S > -^l. '^^'^^'°"' Q. I« it to your knowledge that there ' '"'^"^^' the Government and the cfZ^T' ^'^ any correspondence between.ome memben, of Ed>»uurd Morenu 197 t of claims which • There were two ; n Mr. Langelier's letter from Mr. iSo.OOO) tiftj five* e twenty fourth le letter book? viitten; but of rresponcJeiice y is included >re previous in hundred lembers of an.l mi wTrUh *"' n' '''" "' ^"T'^""'""'*' ^''^'^'^" ^'^^ department of Public Works and railways and the old company, the M organization. Q. Is it to your knowledge that the Honou -able Prime Minister had arried on a cor- respondence with the company on this matter. A. I am ignorant of it. Q. That correspondence is not included in the documents you now fyle' A. There are some letters that go back to (1890) eighteen hundred and ninety A. No, the answer is not there. «n.l ^; ^"^ T- '""' u.^i ""^^^ ^^*^ ^^^ ^"' 'y obtained a copy of Mr. Langolier's renort and of the claims which accompanied that r.-port ? i^angcner s report ^/r. Riopel : — the inZy held bv^Mr" ^^7''""^' 'TT''' "^''^ *^««« ^P^^^ ^^^^^ concern P.^.uc^^t'^t^n^^^^^^^^^^^ answer to the report of Mr. Langelier of the twenty sixth February (Sfelghteen h mW and ^ninety; that answer was addressed to His Excellency the LirenSSe'nor L Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— • You can produce it yourself Mr. Riopel. ^r. Riopel : - Is there any objection to the production of this document ? Mr. Biique : — I see no objection to it, except that it may necessitate the production of proofs I have irr v^l'lJt b ;r *'^r'"P^l«*' •»-' I «e« that it takes exception to certain conclusion* arrived at by the commissioner as not being Justified by the proof. But we do not object to u! .Vr. Riopel : — Tf Mr. Bdique will withdraw the com,nissio.ier'.s roport I will withdraw my answer. Mr. Biique : — We have no objection to your answer. .'I '■ jK i f-i3£'~Sii^'- ■ '-J -f r I 198 Edouard Moreau h'o.%. Mr. Justice Jetti, to the witness .— Will yoi. please proci.re for u« the documents which The WUness :~ Yes, Your Honour. >,?ltfr*r. r ^^ -!*-- '•« •adjourned are asked for. (1891) eighteen hundred and ninety one. until to-morrow, the seventeenth of October J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commission. jenth of October rOER, (the Commimon. A, I uebec. ) ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA Pkovince of Q DUtricl of Q iBBuecl under the Great Seal of the Province, constituting and appointing the Honourable Louis A. Jett^, Judge of the Superior Court, the Honourable Louis Francois Georges Baby, Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench and the Honourable Chari.es Peers Davidson, Judge of the Superior Court, Commisuioiieis to inquire into and report on tlie facts and circum- •tances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions, made under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baiejles Chaleurs Railway Company. 6th SITTING. On the seventeenth day of October in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety one. Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. JExri:, President, " " " '• Louis Francois Georges Baby, " " " " Charles Peers Davidson, Commissioneri. NAPOLEON THIVIERGE, of the Parish of St Bonaventure.'Baie des Chaleurs, Arch- priest and honorary Canon, duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say ? ( This mtmsa is examined at the special request of Mr. Beique.) By Mr. Beique : — Q. How long have you lived in Baie des Chaleurs ? A. For nineteen years. Q. You are the euri of the Parish of A. St. Bonaventure. Q. Does the Baie dos Chaleurs railway pass through your parish ? A. It was to have done so ; it has not done so yet. q. The projected line of the railway passes through your parish. does it not? A. Yes, Sir. Q. You took a great interest in the building of the road and followed all its stages ? A. Yes, certainly. Q. Will you tell us what was the condition of the railway in 1839 ? A, It was in a very sad, pitiable, lamentable condition. In fact the Baie des Chaleurs Company had entirely lost the contidence of the public. For my part personally, I would 200 Jiev. N. Thivterge m I 1 f I IF thou jt ;s w , r .;;r ""7'^ ■^"'^ ^^^^ ther irx; ' r::tTr ^'^^'^ '^ ^^^ Pai'o trouble „,..« J, Q. -Theii object waa to get paid? A. Yes. A. Cf ,tai„lv, many of mv ^ ■ >" ™"'Pl«in«l to you ? <1W, I wro" i S' ■ ^'"".'''■' "'"' ™"°"- Pm-.,„ tohdp ,h™ ! ' '^f.'" "" ' tl'" Uovernor, Eev. N. Thwierge 201 T the impression oners came to ask 'd, ''t-caiise I then never have been ice. What grieves t of the Province, mty and for the iffer terrible and ny some people distance, took 10 wanted to be built as Soon t' the country ' 'he right of im convinced lidance in the 'gress existing Q. Up to what period of time did this distrust exist. Do you remember when the work waa suspended. A. To the best of my recollection, in the autumn of 1889. Q. And it remained suspended till this summer ? A. Yes, till last August. Q. Do you remembe a certain petition presented to His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor in council dated Nov 30, 1890, and if so tell me if it is signed by you ? A. It is signed by me, the petition is in my writing, I drew it up. Q. It was you who composed it ? A. Yes. Q. Nobody suggested it to you ? You yourself took the initiative in the matter ? A. In asking the Hon. M. Mercier what he could do, I suggested to him to pass a law and asked him if it would not be a good and even a necessary thing to get up petitions on the subject ; the Hon. Mr. Mercier answered that it was a capital idea and that it would •trengtlien the Government in taking steps to assist these poor people . Q. You are one of the old inhabitants of that part of the country ? A. Yes. • "-e-. •nd lawfuJ mem» : '*""°" '""' «OMf1«ratio„ »„d loemploj- .11 |,on"t iuj«7;rr;s;,r.:.t„.t;t - «-"' •'-. o.«™„tio,. „, fliatelj complete the road. ^^ "" * ^^^ -^''^ corapaniv which, will imme- -ece.a.y capital ,„ eon.,„eace such ::l'derUkLg " ""' '*"^' ^^'° ™" '-^'^ '"« Anu J ,)ur petitioners will ever pray St. Bonaventure, 30th November, 1890. (Signed) Gilbeit Bourdages, F.-X. Poirier Narcisse Bourdages George Forest Elz. Arsenault Simeon Caillouette Peter Henry Ambroise Babin Urbin Bourdages J^Zfire Arsenault Joseph Bdlanger Stanislas Babin Samuel Bourdages Joseph Babin Napoleon Poirier, mayor Fr^d^ric Bourque Alexis Poiri<5 P. N. Thivikrge, Ptre, Cure. A. Pekron, Ptre, Vicar. *Antoine Poirier *George Fournier *Lazare H<5beit *Marcelin Arsenault, *Thomas.Roy *Romual.| Bujold *George Cavanagh. *Nazaire Poirier ^Charles Babin *John Le^h *AIexi& Babin *Th6phile Henry *Jo8eph Henry ♦Francois Poirier *AIlred Bujold *Jo*eph Caouette *Joseph Poirier All the names preceded by a star (*) have been marked by a cross Rev N. Thivierge 203 lid Jor the WfUaie the soil and ol' the nter; dunworked (since 3l" colonization, h\ lor aspeculative 3e of riches for the the excellent re- 3 tunber shanties nothing to earn ■ the Lieutenant aiploy all honest construction of lich. will iinme- main, and after- will have the Ptre, Cure. i(icar. Lrtzare Horvey Charles Aroonault (Charles Bouique Alfrid Bugett Simon Henry Antoine Bourdages L6vi Arseneau Napoleon Gauthier George Arseneault F61ix Arbour Joseph Arseneault L6vi PoiritT Louis Bourdages Elz^ar Poirier Jeanvier Caillouette Pierre LeBlanc William Bujel Come Bujteld Jean Louis Cavanagh Sylvester Arsenault Raymond Fournier John Louis Caillouette Nicolas Bourdnget> Fiddle Poiiier J. F<51ix Arsenault Simon Babin 0. Arsenault Alexis Babin Charles Henry Loui.s Bourdages •Mathias Bujold •Michel Pag6 ♦Franfoirt Henry *Fidel Bernard •Cyrille Rousselle *L6vi Arbour ♦Fr.niQois Paquet *Maxime Henry ♦Joseph BujoM, fils d ♦Alexis Arsenault, fils de J. Pierre *Maxime Henry, fils de Janvi( r *Hilarion Caionette *Jean Louis Poirier, fils d'Ab. *George Poirier ♦Joseph Henry, fils de Dom. *Napol<'»on Forest *Alexis Bourque *Edouaid Arsenault *Hi!aiion Arsenault ♦Joseph Quessi" ♦Augustin Poirier ♦Napoleon Ferlat ♦Guillaume LeBlanc ♦Pitre Arsenault F61ix Bourque ♦Eclido Arcenault ♦Elz^ar Bourdages ♦Janvier Paquet ♦Joseph Forest ♦John Polier ♦Maxime Bourdages ♦Bonaventure Arsenault ♦William Poirier ♦Napoleon Bujold ♦Joseph Poirier ♦Guillaume Babin ♦Ozias Arsenault ♦Nicolas Rabin ♦Ambroisc Bourque ♦Xavier Lavach ♦Charles Bourdages ♦Pierre Roy ♦L6vi Henry ♦Alfred Arsenault ♦Stanislas Gauthier *Cazine Babin 'Stanislas Poirier ♦Pierre Ferlat Joseph Gauthier Joseph Henry Ignace Forest ♦L6vi Brtbin ♦Th<5ophile Arsenault ♦Napoleon Henry ♦Napoleon Bourdages ♦Jean Louis Fournier ♦Jean Louis Arsenault ♦Lazare Poirier ♦L6vi Bern«rd ♦Charles Poirier *A1! the names preceded by a star (♦) have been marked by a cross. 204 Reo. N. Thivie, rse *CainiJIe Bernard *MarceI]in Arbour J- P. Arsenaiilt •Joseph Arsenaiilt 'Syivestre Bernai-d Gnillannie Arsenaiilt Pierie Arbour Josepli I'oirier Thos. ArsenanJt Andr^ Bernard J- B. riourde Anibroise Gauthier CJmrles Bonrdajres Arthur Desbiens Francois Bugeold Maxinie Poirior Pierre Bourque Richard Gauthier *F^lix Hubert *Ignace Babin *Hvpoh-te Arsenault *Majorique Dion ^Joseph Gauthier, fils *Xavier Beinard *<'zias Poirier •JosepJi Bernard *Thoma8 Henry *LHzare Bernard *-fean Baptiste Henry ^^ranyois Bourdages *Aug-u8tin Poirier *Joseph Bourdages diaries Arsenaeu Frf.ngois Bernard *Ardr^ Arsenaiilt *A'exnndre Arsenault *-^-lexis Borti ^■fcspph Babin *Lazare Bujold *Lazare Caiouette *Fr^d^ric Arsenault *Dias Arsenault *Simon Cavanagh Jean Louis Poirier *NarciH8e Babin St. Bonaventure. 30th November 1890. A. Yes that is the same. Q- Did you write to any of thp nf i, . . -^. *> ith mvself as I h i A. Yes. ^""^ ' Q- You looked upon the road as a t.„ki- A. Yes. P"'^'"' necessity ? ' '"'* ''^ un'lerstand you aright ? All the names preceded bv a star M h.vo u ta.() have been marked by a cross. imsmmmmr-viir'Km, Rev. N. Thivierge 205 enry ges lult to take the same nembersofthe good thing to 'aspebiac, Mr, It I was getting Jetition, aslting t in this wav Vfercier who aright ? A. lam very anxious to rectify that error, if Mr. Lariv6 gave that impression, for I repeat it again, it was I myself who liad that idea first. I remember to have said, tliat Mr. Mercier told me in answer to my request, that it would be a good thing to get up these petitions. It may be that Mr. Larriv^e misunderstood this. Q. Now has there not been a change in the working of the road. Have the works heen resumed? I A. Yes, since the first of August the works have been resumed. Q. How are they being carried on ? A. They are being pushed with great vigor and are well managed. Q. Does the new company give satisfaction ? A. Every one is loud in its praise. And best of all, what was never the case before, the workmen are regularly paid. Thus, last week all those who had worked in the month of September were paid in full. Those who had been promised *1.10 a day received $1.10 and not one dollar or eighty-five cents as was formerly the case. Q. Were there many men working on the line ? A. Tliere were at one time five or six hundred men, Q. So, every one is paid. Those furnishing materials are paid, the men are paid, and the construction progresses ? A. Yes, the construction progresses. I think that in a few weeks, they will have finished nearly twenty miles. Q. So, every one is satisfied with the agreement the Government has made? A. Every one is satisfied. It was a most satisfactory agreement. By Mr. J. L. Riopel :— Q. You have declared on oath that in 1889 almost all the workmen were not paid, that is the expression used by you. What do you mean by it ? A. All the working men on the railway were to a great extent unpaid, or at least all were complaining, especially in my parish, where I saw a great number, and even up to the present time, all are not yet paid. Q. What do you mean by these words " all were not paid ". A. Almost all. Q. When was the work on the railroad commenced ? A. Do you mean this year ? Q. No, in the first place, the first work on construction? A. I cannot precisely say ; I think about 1887. Q. And it was in 1889 that these difficulties occurred ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were not the debts you have mentioned, debts of 1889 ? A. There were also debts of the first year, I think. Q. Disputed debts ? A. Not at all. Q. And these claims were submitted to the Government ? A. Yes. Q. And they were not paid by the Government ? A. No. [it i* i I 206 Rev. N. Thi vierge Q- i>' w« not in a do^.m" Q- VVho toldyou V ' """ *" ^'^'«' '^ o»"i^atio„, v A. I judged 80 from whnf v. . * >''eU, it i, M ,K., J "Mrlhst yo„ eiihe, could „m We cannot alfo "'•■'P't-fons. Huh. Pierre Oarneau '^hat yon say i, „ot imn. ^ 20}> f '"e des ChaleuM date? idea strike you at Mercier with Mr. ' question cannot o'" the Baie des Its obligations ? ^ligations ? % -Vr. Aljope/ .._ obliga. _. J,. .0 .„« .™,, ,^. ,Kivi„^e, c, ,„„ „, „., .„„ ^„^.„^ ^. , ^^^ ,.^^,^ Q. wnf :r:r ::::;;:rrtr "'°""" " ^"' - « "■ — -■ "■He.„...ke, werce„e»„.dtyThe'XTr "" """>' "' «' '« "o^'me,, directly ,; uT"""''";"'r°""'"'-™"''"«'«--°"'""«'o.l.ow»tm™ O 4n.w "'e contract. I have »)een tlie contract myself y. Answer my quest on : I ask vou if it wo. n A. These are subterfuges • you" I r ''\T°"""' "'° '"^'^^^^ *h'- "'- ? workingmen. ^"' ' ^°" ^«'« responsible according to your conract to the whetL;;t/r ;?d:it%Vo;TtTecXaTr;-^^^ r^--- -^" - • ^eu me men and ,f it was the company who iX^Z' Cm """^' °'"^^' *^ P">' "" ^-^^in"! oon^Srr--— - ^^^^^ the men in .. the Q. By the contract ? A. One clause of the contract whiV>, t i, , contractors die, not pay. yoTC^SSd^rd'sr' ™^'"''' ^'^«""'^' ^'^^'^ ^^at i- the Jlon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— Mr. Riopel, these questions go too f- anH h.Jr, • j • reference to the inquiry we have to make ^ "" ^'*""' °^ "° importance witl, Mr. Riopel insisting on continuing his cro«s-examination. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— Some one must have the last word \f. w er could not omhinationa settled the matter. ' '*' "'^'^ ^^^- ^-^ier wa. to inform him that we had Q. Have you the letter or a copy of it ? 14 i I II 210 Hon Pierre Garneau i N 11 A. No. Q. You did not keep a copy of that letter ' b«8ines8 ? '"P^"'^ ^^'^ ™P«''a"t letters which you write on public A. I did not copy any of the letters which I wrote to Mr Tir • > ■ Q. Now, did not Mr. Mercier >vritP to vn, ''"''' ''"'"'« '»•» '^^^^ence A. Yes. ''"'' ^'"'^ '" ^ °" reapectu^g the settlement you had made ? Q. Have you the letter which he wrote you A. >o. I did not keep it. Q. Have you looke.l for it ? ^'"^■'''' ' "" ''"' '"''^^ ' ^'-troyed it. A. I cannot lay my hands on it. Q. Did you look for it? A. I looko,! among .11 ,„v lotter, .„d I oould „„l /W i, A. ^MLr';:.t "" *"" '""' *" "" ■■»-«- °'-«-««-« " ' (I Did you make all possible search ? A. All the searches that I thought necessarv. Q. Can you now say that you cannot iind it' ? Do you swear that ? .n.^: -rrj-;:V: S-:^rZ^ ^^ — . cannot Q. ^AT^en di 1 you write to Mr. Mercier inform rimthatt;"::"""' ''"'' ""^^'-^• A. It must have been in the month of May. I tlk. '" "'"' '''''"' ' Hon. Pierre Garneau 211 lething else. on write on public liuinj,' his absence you had made ? tter was settled. lat the Bale dei but tliat was a er'ei absence thnt ied with the way important one? pstroyed it. sent I cannot g that matter. 8 settled ? You do not remember the date ? No When did you receive Mr. Mercier's answer ? It was perhaps at the end of May or beginning of June, 1 do not remember. Now, in examining the record I fmd a letter dated the iifth June, eighteen himdred and ninety-one (1891), of which 1 ask you to prodacn a copy as EKhibib So. 21, which is adtlressed by you to Mr. Thorn, and which is in the following terms : A. A. Quebec, June oth, 1891. Hon. Pierre Garnkau, Commissioner of Public Works and Premier ad interim. Sir, In view of the fact that the first (iO rnile.'< of our Railway will cost to repair, considerablv more than was represented, and inasmuch as the cost of building the mile's fiO to 80 on account of very expensive steel bridges, heavy cuttings and rock work will cost nearly twice as nuich to construct us the miles 80 to 100, which, from surveys actually made prove to be through an absolutely flat country, the c )mpany therefore desires that out of the *7,000.00 per mile payable on the last 20 miles, that is 80 to UK), $3,500.00 per mile be applied and made payable on miles (50 to 80, making the subsidy of $260,000.00 payable on the last 40 miles as follows, when eiirned : Miles 60 to 80, one hundred and ninety thousand dollara ($190,000.00,) of which amount one hundred and twenty thousand dollars («120,0lX).OO) shall be paid on completion of the said twenty mil. s to the satisfaction of your engineer, and the balance, namely, seventy thousand dollars ($70,000.00) shall be paid two months after said completion. Miles SO to 90. thirty-live thousand dollars on completion. Miles 90 to 100 thirty-five thousand dollars on completion. A re-adjustment of the subsidy in the maimer above mentioned would bo more correctly apportioned to the cost of the work to be performed on the different sections and would entail no furthur cost to your Government. We therefore respectfully ask that your Government consent to the change in the pay- ment of the subsidy as above described, and shoidd you desire further security in addition to that now held by you as guarantee that the road shall be completed to Paspebiac, we will deposit with you a further sum of two hundred thousand dollars of the company's bonds, on payment to us of the last seventy thousand dollars ($70,000.00), of the one hundred and ninety thousand dollars ($190,000.00) which we have asked you to make payable on miles fiO to 80, said bonds to be returned on completion of the railway to Paspebiac. I have the honour to be, Your humble servant, (Signed,) A. M. THOM, Secretary-Treasurer Bale dcs Chalenr.t Hi/, (Jo, I 212 Hon. Pierre Garneau Q- That letter was written to von' A. I think so. Q- Well, do you think so, oris it true' A. Yes, yes, the letter was received. Vd- »ou answered that letter? A. There inust have been an answer T ., A. If you have the answer it ni^hf r.f V ' . Q. Now, will you listen to the r V A. M. TiioM, Esq., Secret Dbar SI]!, Secretar,.Trea.urer Bate ,es Ckale.urs By. Co., Quebec. QUEBKO, 16th June, 1891. I liave to acknowledge repoinf r tlionsatul five hundred dni „ ?io^ ""'•'J''^>'"'''eon the iJt mL„ ^^^^^^^^ ''"=■ *^at "f tJ'e "the List twenty miles (80 to 100) Hon Pierre Garneau 218 n the recon). I •ecord in the y; all official ails of that nhiug that t accept it ? 80 l^rl 1 ^. K '";? ""derstand you to reqn^st that on the completion of miles 60 fl'o.O ('Jl 1 ,' P^'M" 'T ?'"^P'"^' ^"^ ^""^''^'^ ""^' ^^^--ty thousand dollar, and la fSl om' t" ''"^7 ' ' '"',' '■'"^'^' ""'^^ >'°" ^^""'^ ^^at thirty-five thou, when f • ^*^^'*^?-^"^ ^.^ P*^'^ "" completion of mile 90. The balance of $35,000.00 f^reToi ^reol r"h ? "^t"" ''"''' '^^^-.b^^" ^^-Pl'^t^L-The government agrees to the loregoing requests, but on the express condition : favoratl J"r.1 "I' Tu'^ "^^'^ ''^id railway .hall be held to have been completed until a fa^ orahle report shal have been made thereon by an engineer on behalf of the Government as to the condition of the road, the equipment and the bridges. denoSdl^i?h T t"''"''' '^'* 'I'' '""'^ ^"" ^^ completed to Paspebinc. there shall be mZtn^.^ Tr' 1 ''■' Province, previously to the payment of the last ZZ^^'' T ^ ^°'"P'^*'^°" °f '»>'<' 8"' *^« hundred thousand dollars nt par value of the company s bonds, equal in value to those already deposited with the Government The fore- o^ThrExecur ?^°"Vr'' °''"\'""^ ^"^*""* '^^^•'"^' ^-" «"b'"^"'^^ t: :; coHeagues 1 above r/ T ' ''' ""''r^'' '^PP''"^'^ '''^' "^'"«' '^"'^ '^"thorize me to write you as abo\ e, agreeing to your proposals. ^ I have the honour to be, Sir, Your humble servant (Signed) p. GARNEAU, Commissioner of Public Works arul Acting Premier. 'nth June, ou, a cop3- 1891. ♦ate tliat menton ornment t of the 5), three each of to 100) . ,, ^ „ Quebec, 27th April, 1891. A MoIntyrk Thom, Esq., Quebec. Dear Sir, (tm^'mJ" ^'k''^' 1 T'''' ^°' ™' ^""'•'■^'^ -^"^ seventy-five thousand .lollar, (*17a,000.00), about which we had a conversation to-day in the absence of the Assistant- Treasurer, It ,s not convenient to give the same before to-morrow. This letter\^^ll be tred to-morrow. The proceeds of the same will be paid by the Government in accord.nce w h the terms of the Order in-Council. Yours truly, P. GARNEAU. P. S— This sum of one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars ($17,x000.00) will not ce";' ;:^1 b: nS""" *'" '"' *'^ '"* of June, after the first of Juuo,^ inte'rest at five pel P. G. 214 Hon. Pierre Ga rneau A-It.»J»h„„rot,,l,«,.t(,.r A. Iflom.tthinkao. ' Q. A'-f'yoi'oertain.yesc.rno? ' Q. And you could „„t fi„,, it , ^^ •'• A. And I could not find it. Q. Xow, you wore asknrl in *i, Q. Did you ever knnw that iHpo-ni ^ respe>ct.„g the settlen.ent of that XT"" "" ''""^^^ ^° ^« ^^-^ht to hear upon vou A. No, I had no knowledge of it Hon. Pierre Garneau 215 wrote to Mr. Thorn e wa« an Order-in- troni Mr. Mprcier ; la'I his letters ; I 1, if pressure \va» ted, I think, that o bear upon you )n you. eaten you witli matter ? )u not '! 8 making such > such a thing ,• that you had ht of resigning ^y manifested 3lt the respon- Q. You were at that time in charge of two or three departments ? A. Of two or three departments. Q. And you felt that the responsibility was too great ? A. Too great. Q. Whs your health good ? A. My health is not very good, and at that time it was not very good, and I was very much fatigued ; I felt that the responsibility which I had was too great. Q. But the idea of resigning which you had, had no connection with any pressure that might have been exercised upon you, A. No.pressure, no threat that was made to me, as it has been pretended, Q. Now, out of what year was the subsidy to be taken, out of which the hundred and seventy-five thousand ($170,000) have been paid to Mr. Armstrong ? A. Out of the vote of the Legislature, in December eighteen hundred and ninety (1890) under the act 54 Vict. Q. Then, tljat subsidy could not be paid except during the year which commenced on the first July, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891), is not that so ? A. Yes, that was for the finances of eighteen and ninety-one and ninety-two (1891-92) ;if could not be touched until after the first of July, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891). Q. Then, you could not get from the Treiisurerthosum of one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars, (»17.5,0OO) before the first of July, eighteen hundred and ninety-one f A. No. Q. You have already stated, that you considered that it was not necessary to have an Order in Council to pay that sum, as it was a sum that had been voted by the Legislature ? A. For a special purpose. I have already said that ; that was the opinion of my colleagues and my own opinion. Q. And the Order-in-Council number two hundred and thirty-seven (237) had provided for that ? A. Yes, the Qi der in Council mentioned that vote. Q. You were asked yesterday if you had any relations with your son respecting this matter ; will you state if you had occasion to speak to your t^on about anything connected with it, and what it was ? A. My son did not speak to me about thi'i matter ; in so far as the settlement of this matter was concerned, my son did not speak to me at all. (J. Did you obtain, through your son, certain information respectingthe new syndicate? A. The information I received from iny son was this : wishing to ascertain the solvency of several members of the syndicate, I asked at my office in the Lower Town, represented by my son, for books that we had of certain corporations, known as Dun Wiman & Co., and Bradstreet and I had those books sent to me, for the purpose of ascer- taining the standing of those persons. (J. To see how tliey were rated ? A. To see how tliey were rated, as I wished to take all possible precautions to assure myself. Those were all the reports I had. Q. The list of shareholders was read to you yosteiilay ? 216 Son. Pierre Garneau •f^. Yes. six ?n f""^?^^^^ t''t' number wa« Mr tk — — .-^ A. Ves. "'^^" •» the company, Thorn i„ Q- Who did jr.. rp- 2f etmg wa. to be held/and not bein . r' ^'''^'^^'^ ^^'^^ time "^ th.^J*^ ' "^ '"''^^^ "un>! Cooper, to ask him for all nZ-M^''''''«^ther satisfied with^h . '^''•^ "P°" which the , ^^-^rr.Cas,rain..^ -'«-.• they were Q If r P T D ^^"* telegram • " ]\fr Th find nnjthing ,h„, r,„„i7° °" , ? """»■ If »" further L"?"?""' """^ "othad '? recall him to „k him Ser ' "'°'' "'»' »'■ G"ne." ,» " u'°" ""^ "" '«"d »e .» P« Zr ■'■°" '^™ "■•• ">- a..«.i»n, are ,.e,o».„. • "^^ •"""""■«' "»=l.v to alW you Edouard Mo/eau 217 fJred andtwenh-. tW)), of the thr^o 'rapany, Thorn i„ information you 'Oil, and several he letter whicli ' appear, aa the ; a certain num. upon whif-h the egraphed to Mr. what Mr. Thoni ed was correct ; ra; they were the telegram fny associates, ■ectors on the D? i a moment ave not had e record we permission "•^'e us the illow you EDOUARD MOREAU, of Quebec, directdr of Rnihvays, being recalled, continues his deposition as follows : Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — Q. Mr. Moreau,have you the covers of the records which yesterday you were asked to produce ? A. I have brought them. Q. How many are there ? A. There are twentv-three. » Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— -Are those documents requir<-d in the department ? A. I have a copy of them and I have a copy of the two principal records. Q. They had better be left here so that counsel may take communication of them ? A. I see no objection to leave them here until Tuesday. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — Q. You were not asked to produce other documents ? A. I have brought the registers of the letters written, which I was asked for yesterday ; there are four. I have brought the list of claims, to which allusion is made in oneof Mr. J. C. Langelier's letters, I think, of the twenty-third. That list is missing, but this is a copy, it is not precisely the same list I had, which was produced at the time, at the same time as Mr. Langelier's letter in the department. The amount is somewhat different. The total of the claims is here fixed at ($39,661), thirty-nine thousand six hundred and sixty-one dollars, while in the original list the amount is thirty-eight thousand and some hundred dollars, the difference not being large. Mr. Langelier tells me that this list is among his papers, and that he will produce it as soon as he has found it among his papers. Q. Whence arises the difference between the original and the copy ? A. The difference may be in the amount of one of the claims. The difference is perhaps about five or six hundred dollars. By Mr. Case/rain ; — Q. Mr. Moreau, why did you not produce those covera yesterday, when you brought the record. A. I did not bring them because I had not an order from the Court to produce an original document ; these covers of records are originals, and are our only control in the Department. Q. Is that the only reason why you did not bring them? A. I have no other. Q. When you produce those documents anywhere, you are accustomed to produce them with the covers, the envelopes ? A. Rarely. I never produced a document in Court in its docket. Q. Now, will you state whore this document is that is mentioned on the back of the envelope number (647) six hundred and forty-seven. Is that the number of the fyle or the number of the docket ? A. It is the number of the docket. 218 Edouard More, 'au first of Auril '7«m "* '^'"''''" ^™''^« "'■ ^etf ere of Mr tj, ~, ==-^=^^.=^. ciHl. '"^ ^"'ce, because thev arp n,^f ,• ^ , ^ have not brought them. -'^»'. Casgrain :~ The order is given. ^y -Vr. Casffmin .— Q. Now I road- "Sp ;^- ^t should be there. ''' '''•'^'' '^'" ''^^ °"gi„al report ;> Q- I wish yo,i would find if • r . """f"'-. I cannot find it. What date, if you please? -'^fr. Casgrain .•-. A. It should be therp /vu d^ate. I see that there i a '''""^'' '^'''•'='>es the record) Tf . • the20th April. '"^ " '^ '^^'-^ "^''^e Honourable TRobi o :""■'".'' ^ ''''''' >^' ^''o Q' % Mr. Charles Lange.ier ' "'' '^^" ^'^^ ^^^e '»^- les, signed bv Mr <>i. i ' , Q- iVow Iro'if? • " 1 Edouard Moreau 21* enth and twenty- 'also letter In, in ■nd bearing same 'hey are not olfi- a brought here tinon, assistant accepting Mr. 'oni Ht the I fhat date t? put the eral. But ft. it is a ■alt at all ; til April, A. It is not there ; it is not signed. Q. " See under this cover letter afterwards cancelled t.y the Commissioner to Mr. Thorn dated the 27th April, 1891 ; " it is not signed ? A. It is in the office, it is not official. Q. Yuu swear that it is not official ? A. It is not official, it is not considered as forming part of the envelope. Q. You marked it on the envelope ? A. I noted it, but it is not signed. Mr. Caagraiii : — I should ask that the witness produce it. Hon- Mr. Justice Baby : — You must protUice it, Mr. Moreau. The Witness:— "' Very well. Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Now, I read this : "See under this cover report dated the 28th April, 1891, which is the only official report of the law officers of the Crown to be laid before the House, if the papers in this matter are asked for." Is that report there ? A. It is there. This report is signed by Mr. Cannon, but it is accepted ; in the public departmt-nts, Mr. Cannon's opinion is that of the Attorney General. I therefore put the name of the Attorney General. Q. And that report was the only one to be laid before the House if the papers were moved for? A. It is written there. Q. Did you write all that is written on that envelope ? A. No, it i> not my writing. Q. It is signed with your initials ? A. Yes. Q. You approved of what is written there ? A. I approved it. Q. Now. is there in the record a letter from you as director of Railways to Mr. Arm- strong, telling him that he had no claim at all against the company or against the Govern- ment. A. There is none. Q. Where is that letter ? A. There is not such a letter to my knowledge. Q, Did you ever write a letter to Mr. Armstrong in that sense ? A. Never. Q. Did you get it written, or did any one to your knowledge write on behalf of the Department of Public Works ? A. Never. Q. No letter of that nature ever existed ? A. Not to my knowledge. 220 Edouard Moreau 7Z '''- ■•" ?o-iir^'^°" " ^*^^'^'S-) one hun..e. .„, , A vo •'^.'^'^'"'"""icate.l win. l,i„ ««venty-five thousand ^- J«- not ,n any way. '^'"' ''"" -"P^cti,^ hi« daizn ? "j!- if'iiarn positive^ ;^- J am positive. y* irfr Af * ^»' *ief, .l,e H„„„„l' ?,"*": »■» Ho„.e. "'"'■ "«' «""' •<-« m, ,h., ,„ ^ es. '<- Jur. Oarneau ? •'/>•• Beique .•— ^- J'|«ai,8ualmatte-? A. A-o fhl. " ' ^'fi^hteen hundred J . ^ Honourable Mr o^rn ®' «''hteen °' *^^^^ '-^ "o Order in Cm ^"'' "'"ety-one (iggj) , ^"^^^^^^ 'o Afr. Thorn, ^'•- Jiiique:-. ^ Would ask thnf « M^- Moreau, bring here everything V ^nd further then ^''""«^ >'«" may find, ""e^ the deponent saith not J- BELANGER. venty-five thoi.aand «91. which is the ■01^80, etc ? f told me that waa 3C, I ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA, Province of Quebec District of Quebec Issued under the Great Seal of the Province, constituting and appointins the Honourable Louis A. JettA, Judge of the Superior Court, the Honourable Loais Francois Georges Baby Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench, and the Honourable Chakles Peers Davidson, Judge of the Superior Court, Commissioners to inquire into and report on the facts and circum- stances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company 8 a consequence fJune, ei-rhteen u to Mr. Thorn, where r. m the mission. 7th SITTING On the twentieth day of October, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one. Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. jExri;, president. " Louis Francois Georges Bauy, " " Charles Peers Davidson, Commissioner t. Mr. Burroughs : — If the Commission will allow me, I have an application to make. I represent Mr Edouard Gameau, the eon of the Honourable the Commissioner of Public Works. A question was put to the Honourable Commissioner, tending to incriminate Mr. Garneau, my client for undue pressure that he may have exercised upon the Commissioner of Public Works. My client is naturally desirous of having an opportunity to refute that insinuation in so far as it concerns him personally. It gave rise to rumors and accusations which have been repeated in the papere and which naturally prejudice him to a great extent. Further I may add that the name of Mr. Edouard Garneau appears in the list of witnesses who are to be heard before the Commission. Under these cir( u.Tistances he asks, and I make the application on his behalf that he be immediately heard upon this point of undue pressure. His declaration will' take a few minutes only. He will always be at the disposal of the counsel or of the Commission, if it is desired to examine him further later on. Hon. Mr. Justice Jettk : — We have not noticed that any declaration whatever has been made that can be taken m the sense which you give to the evidence so far given, and we do not think it neces- sary to examine Mr. Edouard Garneau just now. Later, when the enquiry is further advanced. If you think it advisable to contradict or to make any formal declaration on ^mf'" 222 ^on. Pierre Garneau these points, you will h .- ' ~" ^^^^^^'''^^'^^''^''''^^'^==========^^=--~ _ The Honourable Vr r-^..^ -'//•. Hiirrouyhs: We do not think wo shouM „i. • . «o Should allow u for the present. ^H Mr. BHque :— ApnuXluSn^Lil';;;;,' ^^'^^^ --^ -tten to Mr Tho„ .k ^^^ .,nd n,net..one (.«,,, .„, ^1^^:^ ^ ^^^^^^^^ - Q. Will you read that letter" A. Before reading that Uft r ■ , ietter of this nature did nnV fV "''"^ '° ^^^ 'his .- The oth... . Qu^«fx-, 27th April. 1891. " A. McI.vTYRE THojf, Esq,. Quebec. " Dear Sir, " day, ^blh7al!eL'j*oM.°'' "''•''' '''^^'^•^' «bout which w. , a " before to-morrow ' ""' ^'^ ""«^'*"* *---er it is na co„ve J"' T ''^^^^-'^on to- venient to issue the same Hon. Pierre Garneau 223 nkthHtjuatnowit •"•twiUjstandin^r '""•ejiifltstate.1. to fleclirc lieip hiectly or in.li- 'flfhiithonevpr exiimiiiecl as y -seven til oi' w asked if n ons to liave . 1891. ation to- the same " Tlii.-* letter will be iadiiud to-moirow, an. 1 the proceeds of the same will lie paid by • ilie (Uiveriiment in accordanci- with the terms of theOrdcr-in-Council No (i47. " Yours truly, " P. GARNEAU. " P. S. Thiti Slim of *l7r),0(10 will not bear interest between this and the l-st of July. " After the first of June inl erect at five per cent will be paid. •' P. G. In the letter, the number si.v hundred and foity-aeven (047) is mentioned as the number of the Oidor-in-Council ; that is hu error, it should be twc) hundred and thirty-seven (237). I signed that letter. (l- There was at tir.-t in the original draft of the letter the word " July," was there not ? A. Yes. Q. Till' word " June " was substituted theret'oi '! A. Y'es. (1- W.is this letter eancelleil ? If yes, please say when. A. This letter was cancellrd the next day, as ajjreed upon ; I cancelled my signature the next day, when I gave the other letter ; I struck out my signature an.i I wrote on this letter: "This letter cancelled and replaced by fithers." (l- Was this letter returneil by Mr. Thoni or did it reniiiin in the department? A. [ think that Mr. Thorn had it for about twenty-four hours in the department. Q. This letter had been written by Mr. Thom, I think ? A. It w.is written by Mr. Thom. Q. Will you state under what circumstances that letter was written, if you remember the circumstances? A. The other d>iy it was thought extraordinary tliat there had been a" interval of time between ,the twenty-third and the twenty-eighth, date of the is.«ue of the other letters. The other letters Hre dated on the twenty-eighth and that one is dated on the twenty-seventh. It is >itated in that letter that it was owing to the absence of the assistant- treasurer, who was not there at the time. That is the reason of the delay. On the next day, the assistant-treasurer being there, the whole was completed and this letter was returned. Q. Had Mr. Thom been admitted t> the Council to discuss the transaction? A. .Mr. Thom was admitted two or three times to the Council Chamber to confer with tlie Ministers. Q. In your presence ? A. In my presence. Q. And it was after one of these conferences that he prepared that letter ? A. I think that it was written at the very time, as it is on Executive Council papt r. It was written at the time. This letter is prnduced as Exhibit No. 24. Hij M<\ Caagrain : Q. Mr. Garneau, who gave you that letter since tlie last sitting ? A. It was Mr. Moreau. Q. I see that it has a number ; that must be the number of the fyle ? A. Yes. 224 Hon. Pier ierre Garneau Q- Wh,-,t do ihe^e lettei^ " j 7? „ ====^ . A- Tl.at is t],e register m- tl u' ""''''" ' =^==== register. ^^''^^' "' "'^ bouk, I think, tl,e iett.r . . Q. What register ? °°'' ^""^'^'^^ ''''e tnat. the A. I cannot sav Mr Ar« Q- ^o^^■, wl,en did vo" """ '"" ^^P'^in that, ^^ A. It .:, ,Xn a' Cl Cn a'' ^l''^^ '" ^^^- '^''-« ? that .laj-. '^'^" '^een agreed, and because the other , .. Q- How long was Mr. Machin .b . """ "°' '^ ^^^^n A I do not exactly rennet he; '^'""^ ^' •^'^^ ^'»- ^' VJ- VA as ho Jong absent ■' Q. Are you ceJaill rwl'Lr f'^^"' °" '^^^ ^^>-- ,,^-es.xthinkhe.asabser;;h:t^--:ricr;ht- Q- The letter of credit or the or • ""' ^"^« ^'"^^ -^en this naatter were made by you ? ' "' '^' P^°'»'«e« to pay, ,r the engagement • . A. I had them written, I verified .i "^^^e^ents ,n favor of the hanks Q- Why did you want Mr SS„'l""^ ^^ ' -^"ed them. t-ur. is:,;;;;:!^ ^™"^ ^'^ '---y department are in ,uesti H Q- Vou were treasurer at the time ■> "' ''^ ''""''"»*' wanted the^rtantZa:^;'^*^"^ "' ''^ ^'^-^ of that department • so th . r . Q- Tllen It took fr„n, tho („ ... ™"' ' "» «iat I al„,j.5 .«e ],„e„ otcrMt, "" '"""y-'I'ml to the t»e„tj,ev«„th t„H ,. ^■Thi.i, date., „„ the ..e„.„„,,.M„ '°*-''"^.'you .h„„,<, A:u:p:rtr::::'t-""f'^>»««"-^^^^ Q- It took that time ' '°'^^ twenty-seventh ? A. Smce that says so ,Q- I«lonotaskyouifthprni ., °"'" ^as present in the Q- You do not remember? W. Li'Bouthilier Fauvel 225 'I'Jng like tnat, the =ould not be given 't himself to go to when this matter vor of the banks h the assi assistant- that I always 'at you should '-seventh, nty-seventh ? A. I do not remember other details ; but necessarily, the letters were not issued before the twenty-deventh or the twenty-eighth. Q. Were there other letters about the Baie des Chaleurs matter similar to tliase you wrote to the Union Bank and the National Bank, which are usually called letters of credit or engagements ? T/ie Witneii8 : — Do you mean for the same amount. Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Not for the same amount, but for another amount ? * A. I do not think so. Q. Are you certain ? A. I believe so ; I may say that I am certain. Q. There were no others issued ? A. I believe not, I think not. Q. In connection with the Baie des Chaleurs subsidy, that is the subsidy of two hundred and eighty thousand dollars (1280,000) or that of two hundred thousand dollars ($200,000) ? Mr. Beique to Mr. Casgrain : — In whose favor ? Mr. Casgrain: — In favor of the company or any person interested ? The Witness:— A. No, I do not think so. Q. Are you certain ? A. I believe I may say that I am certain. Q. It is a sufficiently important matter; I ask you to remember positively ? A. Wed, I do not believe that there were any others issued. Q. You cannot be more certain than that ? A. If there are any, it would be in the record and we could produce copies. I do not believe there were any. Mr. Casgrain : — I ask you to have searches made. And further the deponent saith not. fesentinthe wenty-thira WILLIAM LEBOUTHILLIER FAUVEL. of Paspebiac, Member of the House of Commons for the County of Bonaventure, aged 42 years, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say : ( Examined at the special request of Mr. Beique.) By Mr. BHque :— Q. Mr. Fauvel whore do you live ? A. At Paspebiac, Q. For how many years ? 16 rat^BMrr-ffiT* 226 W. LeBoviUlitr Fativel A. For the pa«t sis yeai3. * '^'"' "" > member of ihe Federal p.rfi A. Ye,, Sir. '^'*"" '^"'■»'°«"' 'or the County of Bo„ave„.„,e ? At that tmie, petitioiw wore sent tn .1. ^ '""' ''''' ^'^"»- Government- but r^^^?' -^ '''''' °"'^- ^hree wlu, were in f ^'"^''1 '""J^rity wero -nother ; „hlch „,, ai-ter...;','! 5™:/"" "'" "'"'^*'- "> •'"»P.«"e^'Z:,f [^tl Q-r;oyo„ta„wif.„.rai„hav.r„aehedthe,oea,ity, „i™,^' '??*" ■"'"*'»"» 'l>.l were .e„t t„ ,h T ' '""■' '•°"' "' »•• :sr'---"-.-yo„.r:..r^it<'-rofS;-jr:^^^^^^^ Elliott Webb 227 3onaventure ? Jaie des Chaleurs indred and ninety ty? seven (1887) ; the (188'J), during the ISiit)) thexo was a ars' bons, payable ■chants, for bread them at li.'ty per ing a member of )ad it passed by B miijority were f Mr. Mereier's >ide all desire to Prime Minioter mdeavor to find laliy visited tlie obstacle to tlie existed. Why? a mile long, 'i J afterwards the veeks. Almost Is will be sent 8 will be com- ietl ; they told lay tliey were ipioved since (banks of the oen laid out, like commu- '> which you make it ns Q. It was signed ? A. It was signed by me aa mayor, by the municipal councillors and also bv a crroof many respectable and influential persons of the municipality. ^ 1 produce a copy of that petition as Exhibit No. 25. Q. Will you take communication of another petition which is now shown to vou and ^nTsUo.:."^^ ^' ^'^ ^^""^"^ '-'''''' '-''' ^^"^ *° ^'- «~- conceLiigth^ ^aiira' A. '">at is ;^ petition on behalf of the inhabitants of the municipality of Paspebiac- it Q. You know that it was signed by persons belonging to the county 'i- A. By respectable persons belcmging to the county. I produce a copy of this petition as Exhibit No. 26. r.3' T •",'''"" ^""^^ communication of a resolution of the county council of the countv of Gaspe, which IS now shown to yon, and state if vou know the signature of tZ ™T ^ 1 if you had knowledge of this resolution ? signature ot the secretary, and A. That is a petition on behalf of a public meeting which was held in «,„ <■ Perc., in the county of Gasp., of which Mr. William Fly\n isTheTec^et ar" I LoTm^ W m. Flynn's signature well, having had many dealings with him. I i)roduce a copy of that petition as Exhibit No. 27. Q. Will you take communication of a petition from the Municipal Council of L'An«« au-Grifton, and state if you know of the passingof that resolution, andTyouk^^^^^^ signature which certifies the copy ? ^ ^°^ *"e A The only signature I know is that of Mr. William Flynn, the secretarv-treasurer ■ T know his signature perfectly well. "^^'t^i-ary treasurer, 1 I produce a copy of that resolution as Exhibit No. 28. Q. Will you take communication of a petition adopted by the Ferc6 Rn<,rr1 ^r t , and state if you know the signature of the person who Certified that pelitton" °' '''''' A. I know perfectly well the signature of Mr. Joseph Lavoie Secretarv of th« p. a ,• Trade, and also Clerk of the Court at Perc6. »ecretai j of the Board oi I produce a copy of that petition as Exhibit No. 29. And further the deponent saith not. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson: — Q. What is your employment Mr. Webb ? A. I am cashier of the Union Bank of Canada. Q. Have you been such for some time ? A. For some years. Q. In what office iif th(« bank are you connected ? A. At the otBce in Quebec. Q. In the course of April last was your bauk requested to deal with certaiu Wt«r. .r credit issued in connection with the " B.tie des Chalcm« Railway Co.upauv ' u d if f was It, state fully as to dates and details ? ^^'Upauy Mid n -,. wnat 228 Ellioti Webb and u, conversation he ftHkir ""^'' '^^ '"^'^1^''' ^o tlmt th^ f. ° ' '''""*f''^ ^'"^t We take a potion o, i" T^^^^ V V"'"^^' «-' ^'- ^^n^^^Tu ^^'''' "' ^^--'^''^ to seventy-live tlu.uJJJ i, !^'^^'""<'« ai„l he ag, Ji to t , "'*' ''' ''"^>' ^^""1' A. Mr. Pacaud ^ " ''"^' '^^^^^'^''''e t" the matter v ' - A. .Xo. i think not the "''f'- '" "'"' «'-tementy to tlie bank hiinse f t.uTJ ^ '"«"''-"«'' that Mr. Langeiie t n '^'' ^^'•^' ^''^^ in nu '''■ i« correct ; it m I ." ^ ^'" "^' P^^-'^^e about that he ' W f^"" ''^*^ '^'«'^'- "f c^^Jii Q- At what date wa« that :> '"'°'"^ ^'' ^^^^^e it could go to his credit Q- W],at step, did you lal. , ' "•* '""'" "t „*!'r~-P..a.e„UM„,.. ««d,., „„,„,„ «■ Did jou v„it n„ dop„,„„„, , A. Yes, I wae at the rlPMii>.t.v, ^ '^■w.on.d.,.„„:j::::;:::;;;~..uc„.. Elliott Webb 229 ^f "iiehuiidreJun., >JUt the niutt.r, and J see il- they wou],|' ^n<^iit,iim(Hni,h,.r S'Uislact(jiy. Xlie •^ll'O.OOO.lHJ) to l,e '^) 'jy the Lanque ■lew with you in r was, wlien lie 'ere, that in my ' J'-'tter of c-^dit ot, and perliaps t? edit. eighth of April submitting it >en issued by fiis interview Y Mr. Pacaud, tlie letter of t, fruai the A. I saw Mr. M;ichin and Mr. Dulianicl w.is ihero I suppose iit the time. Q. Who is Mr. Duhamcl ? A. I believe the Minister of Crown Lands. Q. Taking Mr, Duliamel lirst what was the purpcse of your interview with him? A. He was merely present when I wa.s in Mr. Machin's office. Q. By accident? .\. By accident. Q. What passed between you and Mr. Machin? _ A. He showed me a letter of credit as it was drawn up. I may state that up to the time of going there to see whether the letter of credit was drawn in a wav that I consL dered to be satisfactory to the bank, Mr. Machin showed me this letter of 'credit, I think that was all that occurred at the time. Q. What inquiry did you make at the time, if any, as to the Legislative grant, out of which this letter of credit was to bo paid ? A. I think that no inquiry was made ; as far as I remember I asked Mr. Machin why the letter was made to mature on or about the tenth day of July, and not earlier in the month and he said at that time that he wished to be in funds through the subsidy from the Dominion Government, before the letter of credit had matured. ^ Q. What happened next ? A. T\at is all that I remember at that interview. Q. Up to this time Mr. Langelier's connection with the matter, so far as you are concerned, was his calling at the bank to endorse the letter of credit ? A. His calling at the bank was the day following my interview with Mr, Machin. Q. I do not think you have given the date of your interview with Mr. Machin. A. I think it was the evening of the day that the letter of credit was issued. Q. Would that be the 28th of April ? A, I have no memorandum relating to the letter of credit so I could not speak definitely, Q. You may state now what followed next ? A, The letter was submitted to our solicitors. Q. Let me ask yon whether Mr. Pacaud was present at the department when you were there, A, I think Mr, Pacaud was in the corridor, but I won't be positive. He was not in Mr Machin's olfice, Q. Proceed to the next day, please ? A. The matter was submitted to our solicitors, and I obtained a copy of the Order in Council to submit to them, Q. By what means did you obtain a copy of the Order in Council ? A, I think it was through application to the treasury department. Q. Have you a copy of the letter with you ? A, I have a copy of the letter adreased to Mr. Machin, the assistant treasurer. Q. Read it, please ? 280 Elliott Webb QUKBKC, April 29, 1891. H- T. AIachin, Esq., QDmyougetareplytothaMetter? Q- Please read it. Yburs very truly, E. E. WEBB, Cashier. To THE Union Bank OP CANAm. E. E. Wbbb, Esq., Cashier, Quebec, April 30th, 1891. Dear Sir, Yours truly, . H.T. MACHIN, , -opyonetter.ro..rMae.-- ^----— ..... ^ ^^- -^e ;;-S^ ^ ^^^^^--«' - - — .ial you goUhe enclosures ? '" ^"'"«" ^^'^^e.l a, being enclosed by Mr Mac, • . ^- ^^o Sir, I have not. " ''^''" • ^^^^ Q- Where are they » Q"SoTaTth?"'^^'*° "'-«'-'«- Q- Som,„.ing occur Jta .,,,i„.^„., """''"' "»' »" """M no. Elliott Webb 281 April 29, 1891. 'rred to in your <"»,000.()0) to J. a WEBB, Cashier^ 30th. 1891. yesterday, ^ce of Quebec. Jhin's oflicial achin ; have I and 2 and stated by would not ' interval f A. I stated that Pdcaud had presented those cheques. Q. What cheques ? A. Five cheques of twenty thousand dollars each, signed by J. C. Langelier, Commis- sioner, in favor of C. N. Armstrong. Q. And endorsed by whom ? A. C. N. Armstrong and Ernest Pacaud. Q. Are the five cheqUvS now shown you the cheques of which you speak. A. They are. Q. The cheques offered in evidence and marked " 32a, 326, 32c, 32rf and 32e" ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did the endorsation of Mr. Pacaud and Mr. ValliSre which is now written on Exhibits No. 32a and 32/> tlien appear upon their backs ? A. No, Sir. Q. At that moment was the letter of credit in your possession, at the moment of the presentation of these cheques ? ■ A. Yes. Q. Had it then been endorsed by Mr. Langelier 1 A. Yes, Sir, I believe so. I think the endorsation was obtained before the cheques were presented, Q. Up to this moment had any specific statement been made from Mr. Langelier as to whether the amount had been placed to his credit or not ? A. No, not up to that date. Q. Wliat had your statement to him been limited to? A. Simply that I would be obliged to submit it to the board before I could say whether it would go to his credit or not. Q. When these five chesques wore ten A. He was alone I think Q- What followed '' n nru enaorsed by Mr p v„irv ^**8 at a Jatpr ;«.„ • Q- Who wa, with him if „„„ „ ^'"'""' ""I "ttoohed lo „„, '"'"'■«''. if we ^- ' "'ink that he Z IZl °" "'" "°'"°" * '" *"'"'"■ ™.»t.pstr.:r.i„:r »"■ '•"«'»- „.eode„ ,.„ ,.„, „„ . --£;:rsrtr---.-.rthi.i. . "'° Elliott Webb 233 to meet, wns my ficil on a sheet of y the iuiioiint 1)t,( ).00or!S30,000.0u.j attheN'ational, ext did you see = commi„io„er that „, t j Q. Then why writs this letter? A- I think that waa nil fho* r Elliott Webb 285 nt and placed to tl;, E. WEBB. ■ve already lyied it •useinthePeoplo,' oiluce a copy of It ' )f which a copy ia EC, May 16th. ^ting Provincial !en hundred and ^e Union Bank. dd the letter of iderstand that d submit it to liim that the concerned, to indorsed the isable that I ■ritten. Q. Something more must have followed, Mr. Webb ? A. The day before the letter matured, on the ninth of July I believe it was, I telephon- ed Mr. Machin and asked him if I should send up the letter of credit for payment, and his reply was, that if I would send it up that he thought it would be paid on the following day, Q. Well A. 'I sent up tlie letter and the department sent down a cheque on the following day. Q. For how much ? A. Two cheques amounting in all to one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000.00.) Q. Two cheques ? A. "''es, amounting in all to one hundred thousand dollars. Q. Having received the cheques what did you do with the letter of credit ? A. Returned it to the department. This is simply a statement of the two cheques which were made payable for one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000.00) " cheque on Bank of Montreal for eighty two thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight dollars and fifty-six cents ($82,878.56) and on the Union Bank seventeen thousand one hundred and twenty one dollars and forty four cents ($17,121.44.)" Q. Having received this money from the Government, what did you do with it? How did you treat it ? A. We placed it to the credit of Mr. J. C. Langelier, Commissioner, and charged up for five cheques against the account, one of which was held by the Banque Nationale, and one by the Peoples Bink and three were on collection on account of Mr. Pacaud by the Union Bank. « Q. Pioduce a statement of this matter ? Hon. Mr. Irvine : — May I ask whose account it is that he is to produce? Hon, Mr. Justice Davidson : — I was just about to send it down to you. By Mr. BHqne :— Q. Was the other statement produced? A. I have not produced it yet, it is here. The account of J. C. Langelier, Commissioner is fyled and marked ns Exhibit No. 36. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. Wliat was th« interest, five hundred and thirty four dollars and twenty live cents ($534.25) which I see credited in this account? A. That was interest which the receipt liore from the first of June at five per cent until paid, I should say which tho> letter of credit bore. Q. This account shows a balance to the credit of Mr. Pacaud of a like amount, is it still with yo,^ ? A. Mr. Langelier's you mean ? Q. Yes, is it still with you ? A. It is slill there. Q. Can you poim out the pheque which was discounted at the Peoples Bank, that 23f; Elliott Webb ^ A. ^^nll)el■thlrtvfu•n i •. , '-'"qiKs which wen. Peoples Bank presented > "' ^'^'^"^« ^>«-'>tea h, „„ Ba„,„e V r , ^- They were presentei bv fh °""'* *"^ "'«^ A. Ves, Sir. ' ^^ '^"'' ^'"'>- '"ertUied and cashed Q- But before that ? '^ ^'^ ^^^^"es, and on his own behalf. -nd d'ona,: tr" ^''' ''^' ^" ^r. Pacaud's credit, the three eh Q- Mr. Pacaud had -n .00 . '^""' °*' ^^'^'''y 'hou- A. Yes. ^'' "" "'=°°""t «»rrent at your Bank ? Q- More tlian one ' A- I »„ fyle . copy „, ^ . "''°"' <" "" •>«" of „■„, ^- Its Sir. 'eager account ? Said ledger account is fvled «.v i.-,.. Q. Now thp .. ^ Exhibit No. 37. : *^^ ^^^ond account mav bP L-.. ,^-. ^'- S-- ' ' '"°"" - *^« «-'■ '«B Bank account v Sauia i3,,,ed,, Exhibit Jffo. 38. Yes ^T It zs Identical with number .37 drawn'by MfJa" ^d'a'a^^^^^^ ^« -^at pe.ons and for wnt '^- 0"ly some chec! " , f' '""""' """ ^^^'^ °-pS '"^^"'^^ *^^ ^^^^^es "- "'em W'hich appears m fk o • amounta maturing at the Union Bank ' ""^ ^^" Elliott Wtbb 287 h''flii"8 whicli wen. oples Bank, '• thir:,. and thirty two E," ■e and the fianrjue d the bank stamp,? ^fationale and the It ion ? credit in our hank caiid of the sixty 'Of twenty thou- t. ' sum of sixty iount. > the cheques f^)— the item Jr. Pacaud'8 I'rty eight? 'e thousand ' retire two (I. Items live and seven aro three thousand dollars (S8,(KK).CH1J and five tliousand dollars ($5,0(X).O0); do your hcjokd show the thr<;e tluiusmid dollars note us hoin^ made lirst? A. The note of throe thousand dollars was made hy Ernest Pacniid, and endorsed by Mr. M»'rcii!r and others, dated April the tirst at four niontl)s date, maturing August the fourth and jmid on the eleventh of .Tuly. Q. You htated tlmt thf endorsers were Mr. Mereier and others ; what Mr. Mercier? A. 'Hie Honourable Mr. Mercier. Q. Who were tlie others ? A. Our books do not show who the others were, we have no means of ascertaining. Q. By virtue of tliis payment, h(jw many days before nuiturity was the note paitl? A. Twenty-four days, Q. Twenty-four days? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Had this note been discounted in the ordinary course of business? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Was there any security held ngainst it, except the endorsers' names ? A. It is possible that there was a cheque attached to it on account of Mr. Pacaud's Savings Bank account, but I cannot speak defmitely ; in getting discounts very often he attached his cheque against his Savings Bank account as security. Q. Had there been any understanding between you and Mr. Pacaud, with reference to the application of any of this sixty thousand iloUars to this maturing paper ? A. None. Q. None, then this was a volun!:i! . t on his part. A. Yes, it wus a voluntar' on his part. Q. Not an act in any way imposed ujion him by the bank ? A. No. Q. Wluit, if any, rebate did you make, rebate of interest, on account of this prepayment ? A. I do not think that there was any rebate of interest allowed but I could not speak positively. Q. It may be as well to ask you at once, what were your charges for this transaction, with referenc*' to the letter ot credit ? A. We received nothing at all. Q. You did it I suppose on behalf of a customer? A. On behalf of a customer, yes. Q. You made reference to item number " seven," chequ for five thousand dollars ($5,000.00). you might speak more fully in detail.with relerence to that? A. It wa.*! to retire a note of Ernest Pacaud's endorsed by the H-,nourable Mr. Mercier, J. I. Tarte, C. A. P. Polletier and C. Langelicr, dated the tenth of March at four months date, ilue .Tuly the thirteenth, and paid .Tuly the eleventh. Q. Therefore paid two days before it matured ? A. Yes, two days before it matured. Q. Do you know who the Pelletier is? 288 Elliott Webb \\ li A. Senator Pelletier Q- K« opinio,, „f .oT; , t;r '"" ""'■ '«p« 'o i.. ■ ' ^- ^» I have „„ ,„e.,„ „, •""' '" *'""., a.,,1 ,,..„ other account oi^yCaud'"'?'''^ ^ "nderstH.nd yon to s.v ^. ^^ Pacaud s or to the credit of any otl e acZinr'"' *' *^^ ^^^^'"^ of a„v ^•J^« I think all of them have. ^- ^'^^ you state at what dnto v, A. Yen sir ? "' ^ate-have you a receipt for them ? Q- Well is that tJie original ? ^^^'i'^^^^^^ere producer receipt.) A. No, acopyoftherecoint fv,„ •• Q- On What date , '''' ''^ ^^'^'-' --Pt is in the receipt book ^ive te'^ei^frdarett aTr ''"" '''•'"* ^^e tenth of Au.nst .. Q- The receipt is dated ? ^''^"^ ^'^^ «^«ct the l«^la7oa,"f,'ST'''' "*""'•'" "four acco„„t with „ „ . "^ VOUCH., .„ .if;i" --..« in -Pa...b4n^;X^X =rl2 •=?""* '» feoieoeiptol cheques EtlioU Webb 289 93 cheques February, 1891, to July, 1891. 26 cheques S. D. February, 1890, to June, 1891. )pinion as to the '. «ve thousand ■ra, five hundred '^"ars, ai),l t,,vo »e credit of anv xink ? m? '* I cannot '' receipt is " the exact ^nd ninety lues from linety-one auada to f cheques (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD. We hereby confirm the statement of our account with the Union Bank of Canada to the last day of September, 1891, as contained in our pass-book. We acknowledge receipt of cheques and vouchers to same date. (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD. A. That especial form and statement was what was used in the Union Bank of Canada, on the last day of July eighteen hundred and ninety-one, to acknowledge receipts of cheques and vouchers of above date. The subsequent receipt Q. What was the date of that receipt? A. About the tenth of August one thousand eight hundred and ninety -one, another receipt was given about the ninth or tenth of October one thousand eight hundred and ninety -one, and that especial form and statement was used ift the Union Bank of Canada, on the last day of September one thousand eight hundred and nuiety-one to acknowledge receipt of cheques and vouchers of the same date. Q. Who applied for these cheques ? Are you aware ? A. Mr. Paeaud applied about the 10th of August. I don't know who applied in the second instance about October. I presume it was Mr. Paeaud, as it was signed by him. Q. Both receipts are signed by Mr. Paeaud personally. What othcial of your Bank delivered up the cheques ? A. The ledger keeper, I presume. Q. What is his name ? A. Mr. Shaw. It would either be the ledger keeper Harold Shaw or the accountant. Q. What is the accountant's name. A. Fred. Smith, the accountant. Q. Would this withdrawing of cheques by Mr. Paeaud from your Bank be an ordinary practice of his or otherwise? A. Idonotknoi of his withdrawing them on any previous occasion, but I wont be certain. Q. How long has he had an account carried at your bank, for how many years? A. I think for a year or two. Q. Referring to the promissory notes taken up by Mr. Paeaud, I notice that before the Senate Committee, at page sixty-seven, you swear aa follows : " Q. These are the different notes which were found, on searching your books, were retired out of these moneys." " A. So far as I have been able to place them they are in the bank books with the cheques." Before that Committee you were referred to five notes would you be good enough to explain why here you have limited your answer to only two ? A. The other notes were paid prior to the payment of this letter of credit, so that I could not connect th(>m in any way with this investigation. My subpcvna before the Senate was to bring statements of notes endorsed by these difrerent parties, but as these notes were paid prior to the maturity of the letter of credit, I could not coimect them. if III 240 Elliott Webb w I 0H„. „„„„. .,.. „„„„,, _ ^^^^__ ,^ '- "'~ '^e. «. ,„., ^, A. That is all. ^ ^ "P °^ the cheijufs Q. Reverting to tho Savin^js BanL- a data ,„ your ba..k which will enable v.,f.?"* «^bit number 3ft H thousand dollara which Pvhan! 1?^'"*^'^' ^n what mannrth. ^^"^ ^o" any whom endorsed / "'''^"^'^'' ''>-' «-ount wa« apph'S o^o wL'^'^r' '''' *'^^"'>' «-, A. It was paid to Mr. Pacaud in Kn ""^ P*''' "' I'v Q. What dze ? ''°'"^' '" ''"'^ «^ the l^ank in large note« A. I could not give the siVo i > . Q- O. August tl.e tcthT '""''•^'^' «^-^^- -cl twenties, I presume -•-.n.nknot..itwas accepted on .ugust the tenth, hut not paid. Q. On what date wa.it paid? "«' P-^ for some time A. I could not ffive tho ,""' "■ ■--•- """."awn ,„,v „h„„„. ,„^ . Q. Thi. m„,„h , """"" "■»' ' "I"" "flhe month of OoW,,, A. This month. Q.Bo,ouk„„w.ha.it„„ee«i,w„f Elliott Webb 241 'tofthesemoi.evs 'lequesoftwoiiiv- « Mt; three ,„„;., they were mad,. •' > of the che<)iu.s '^"^ you any or twenty fivo as paid or bv or some time 'as after Mr. te inveati- le tenth, A. No sir I could not say. Q. Have you any idea what the reason was ? ' A. Probably Mr. Pacaud did not wish to have the amount lying to his credit in the Bank. Q. Was it transferred to any^other account that you know of ? A- No sir. Q. You have no knowledge of this matter ? A. No sir, the cheque came in afterwards and was paid in bank bills. Q. By whom was the cheque presented when certified, and by whom presented when paid ? A. I think it was presented by Mr. Pacaud when paid, I cannot say by whom when certified. Q. Was any statement made by him then why he w.mted this amount of money in bills ? A. Not that I know of ; no. Q. Referring to the conversation at which Mr. Pacaud made some statement with res- pect to the purposes for which he was to apply the money, did he mention any sum that was to go to his own personal use ? A. About fifty thousand dollars ($50,000.00). Q. And the I lance to be applied in what way ? A. A n of it was to take up some notes that were at the different banks. Q. V. IS i,m,* the only iniormaticjn he gave you ? You are expected to tell Mr. Webb all that you 1 .„•; that passed at this interview ? A. As I remember it he said that a portion was to go to the Honourable Mr. Robidoui to pay a debt that was due, or money that was owing Mr. Robidoux, I do not know by whom, and a portion to the Honourable Mr. Langeiier ; the amount to go to the Honourable Mr. Robidoux was ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00), and the amount to the Honourable Mr. Charles Langeiier was ten or twenty thousand dollars, I am not positive which ; the reason that I have doubts about it, about the twenty thousand dollars, is, that this money Mr. Pacaud stated he would get a letter from Mr. Langeiier undertaking that this money would remain with the Bank, until after the letter of credit was paid, and that the deposit was to be twenty thousand dollars, but whether that deposit included the ten thousand dollars for the Honourable Mr. Robidoux, I am not positive. Q. Well A. That is all. Q. Any names mentioned ? ' A. No names mentioned. Q. Wiia there any statement made as to why this money was to be paid to either of these gentlemen ? A. Only that the ten thousand dollars to be paid Mr. Robidoux was in payment of an account due him or owing to him, that is all. Q. Were these sums included in the fifty thousand dollars (150,000.00) which Pacaud made reference to aa being for himself, or in the balance that he stated that he immediatelv needed ? . ' A. I think that they were included in the balance. Q. Now, have you stated all that took place, and all the information that you received from Mr. Pacaud with respect to the disposal of this money ? A. I believe so. 16 242 ElHoU Webb By Mr. John S. Hall :~ Q. D^ he to. you that he ia«X to geTa" et^ of' ^°^^-*^^^ «« '^ ^^^ ^^^e. n ■ ,, . ^'''" '°- ^ '''^''" ^'*^^ that amount ? Q- JVhere did that conversation take place v A. In n.y office in the Union Bank '^'''• y- Do you recollect who was wif>, tw id A. I think he was alone. ^'' ^"'^"^ °" '^^^t occasion ? Q. Are you sure ? A. Yes. "'"* y«" wouW see about it ? Q- And I believe aftpr fV.0* , • B.„^u.^^ti„„.,eP *" "" »» "'■ W«„oe „, .o„,^, „„„„,„„ ,.,^ ^^ A. Probably the same day ^°" "^^ ^''- ^acaud again ? A. I presume so, yes. '«^ would Mr. W„„c,. «. clled .t the Umo„ B.„k .f«,™.^ .„j j A. Ye,. " ™'^ '»"»"• '» h've thi. discount go through ? Q- On that occasion, it beinc n la-^ "TJ";' , '""""'"'"^'""'•^'"■■"-^"'h. wanted' .hi, '^-l'-f^S:i'::^^f^X^'J^^ ",„i„it.„d o„wh.. d.te,he „ou,d „. y. Waa It on that day he showed vn„ m • A. :. ... h.ve heJthe. d^^.r.:::,;""'"'™ »'»'-' '« -«< - p., - -^f,ui°:s:?:x"? *.oT' '-— . "«..»ge .u,o„„t,..o„ «„.„. -.pired'eS rl" ^ -'^-" «-• "■». I cu„ot„. the d..e. „, .„.„,„ „,., Elliott Webb 243 ' to you about dis he date, unount ? lected with La ng *o $75,000, Id. ither he would a I had seen I'anted this would re- )ay ? would na- iber what Q, I want to know whether it was at the first interview you had the conversation with him as to what was to be done with the money ? A. I think possibly at a subsequent interview. Q. Then, after you had seen Mr. Lafrance, you told Mr. Pacaud that as the Banque Nationale would take $75,000 you would submit the other to your board ' A. Yes. Q. You do not recollect the date that this was submitted to your board ? A. No, it was only an informal meeting of the Board and I have no record of it. Q. After you had this interview with Mr Lafrance, did you make any enquiries at the Department about the issuing of these letters of credit ? A. I wrote a letter asking for a copy of the Order in Council to submit to our solicitor Q. That was sometime after, Mr. Webb. That letter is dated 30th April Then after you had seen ili. Lafrance and Mr. Pacaud again, did you tell him to get the letters of credit divided and have one for $100,000 and one for $75,000? A. I told him I thought from my interview with Mr. Lafrance that probably it might he arranged in (hat way ; as I remember it, the letter of credit was lirst shown me by Mr Machin as drawn for $175,000, and I told him there had been an arrangement by which the letter would be divided and he had it divided into one of $100,000 and one of $75,000. Q. How many times did you see Mr. Machin about that ? A. I think I was there twice. Q. On the first occasion, the letter that you saw waa for $175,000. - A. On the first occasion the letter was for $175,000. Q. Was that signed by the Honourable Mr. Garneau ? A. I dont know whether it was signed, or simply ready to be signed. Q. And you told Mr. Machin that you wanted that divided into two, oao for $100 000 and one for $75,000 ? ' A. Yes. Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Machin as to how the funds were to be provided to meet these letters of credit ? A. He explained at our conversation. Q. We are speaking of the first interview and of the division of the letter of credit ? A. It may have been at -that interview, or a subsequent interview that he said the reason for making the letter of credit mature on the 10th July was that he was sure to be in funds i om the Dominion Subsidy. Q. I suppose it was after you saw Mr. Machm about dividing the letter of credit that you saw the board of directors ? ' A. It was after, yes. Q. Then, Mr. Pacaud came in again, do you recollect, to your bank ? A. Yes. Q. Who was with him on that ocoaxion ? A. I think he wa-s alone on each. 2U EUioit Wibb Q- On that occasion ' A. Yes. • Q- You coniniunicated to h' j3- WtU, It went out of thp h«„t. A. Yes. ^ ^""'^ 8 possession ? Q- Then, when did you sga fho i .* A. I think he brou/ht it in fnlT" "^ ''''^'' «&«'« ? ' Q. Afterwards ? "" * ''*>' ^'^ ^^o- A. Y'es. A. Ye.. ^"' """""'""-"« or c,di..i.h h, „1;i°;„: tl™ 'ult ch'* ""> '»"* «°-™«ee that i. A. Th., or .„b.e,„.„, ,„ „., """"l- ».» *.„„ y- Ihe first time this JpffB- «♦• ^- No. I "link it u very likeJv tk. « ''"•"""'■»»•» endoned Q- You did not tell him i* ^'*' ' A. No. Q.ac,™ei„.„e„d„„e,heleue,„f„edi., Q- Do y„„ recollect, he da,, of ,h„, ' ' Q T?;, t'^"°^°»'"'"""""-i««• .i» ?nue Orln.:^:^^:;, •"« - « A.W, that ,„„ „„.. , ^ „,,^^^__ ^^___^ ^^^ ^___ •««iMP^n:»»Jj«S»>mm 246 Elliott Webb Q. And what did Mr Pn„ . ^^^'^'^^''^^^'''''''''^^''^'^========^^ do you recoliect ? '''• ^''"^'^ '^y «t the ti^e with referenopTT^^^^^ ^- He .in>p,, 3,„ ,, ^^^ . '''^'^"«^ '0 obtaining these cheque. Q- For what purpose? ^"''^^'^'"g his cheque.. ■^- He did not sav r ' U, ^°"'"^^^'^«Pre«s,ngMr.Garneau. J want to L ;^. Yes, he whs urging Mr G ""'' ""^ ^'"^ ^«^ about discounted? "'^"^^^d a good deal of desire to h . A. Yes. '' ^"^^^ ^hese letters signed and Q-I^jacthewasuuhebankdai„P ^- Did you see Mr. Robidoux in th u , A.A.O. ""^'^''^'^^^i'hhin.atanvtin.ev Q-VVasMr^ Charles Langeh-er there. A- 1 dont think so t^ . EUiolt Webb 24T 'g these cheques, 5ce to the outer ^tion before the had been sum- •ncil had been been passed ? iredit ? dit. I^now about *s possible. 'd, I tliink t Afr. Gar. ■ were not f- Mercier 'ned and A. No. Q, Now, when you went up to the Parliament Buildings, who did you go up with, do you recollect ? A. No, I do not remember. Q. Do you recollect into what office you first went? A. I presume I went to Mr. Machin'a office. Q. Did you not meet Mr. Pacaud at the buildings the first day you went up to see Mri Machin ? A. I think he was in the buildings, but he was not in Mr. Machin'a office. Q. But you saw him there before you went to Mr. Machin's office ? A. I would not be positive. I niayjiave seen him. Q. But you say Mr. Pacaud did not go in there when you were there ? A. No. Q. Was Mr. Duhamel there ? Q. Yes ? Q. Did you see Mr. Garneau at all when you went up to the buildings ? A. I think I saw him. I dont say I saw him to speak to him ; I don't think I had any interview with him. Q. Do you recollect who suggested your going to the Parliament Buildings ? A. I think it was Mr. Pacaud. Q. When you went up there, you did not go into Mr. J. Chrysostdme Langelier's office ? A. No. Q. You did not see him ? A. No. Q. Now, you had your interview in Mr. Machin's office, and who else was present besides Mr. Machin, yourself and Mr. Duhamel ? A. Mr. Thoni was there. Q. That is Mr. Thorn whose name is mentioned in connection with this investigation, and whose name is mentioned in the Order-in-Council ? A. Yes. I may state that I dont think these gentlemen werPgpresent when Mr. Machin stated about the maturing of the letter of credit. Q. But this day when you went up to the Parliament Buildings at the sugsjestion of Mr. Pacaud, when you went into Mr. Machin's office, you met there Mr. Duhamel and Mr. Thorn ? A. Mr. Duhamel and Mr. Thom ; they were there either when I went in, or they came in subsequently. Q. Aud it was with reference to the getting the letters of credit signed ? A. I could not say what they were there for. I went up, as far as I remember, to see that the letter was drawn in a way that would be satisfactory to the bank. Q. Do you recollect whether.the letter of credit for !BIO,),000 was signed while you wera there in the office ? A. I think it was. Q. And Mr. Thom aud Mr. Duhamel were present ? A. It would not have been signed in Mr. Machin's office, [t would h-vve been signed in Mr. Garneau's office. Q. But it was at that time ? 248 Ellioit Webb A. Yes, I tl.ink so. _^;J;;'yo»«eoitsig„edyoursein * The «„. „■,„,. „. "«e m Mr. M.ohl„., „„„, ^- Between five and six ^ alternoon ? °"- -«ert.ejl;t :r :rS^^r - -- i„ m. MaeM„. o«ee How . ^- I don't remember about th« fi . ■ ^°°^ ^"^ *''«t Q- The first time v ^"' interview. Building, ? ''™^ -^ °" went up, do you recollect who Q- I believe you know Mr Arm J ^ "^ ^'■- *^«<^hin. I don't r« u A. Yes. ^'•- A™«tro„g, the railway contractor ' ""''''• «Hew«o„u„,hecor,S:;, i T , 1 . """C you Went II n ? A- I eould not state whether if n, u Q- When you came fJ 1 ^ ^'^^ ^^^ «r not. you? ""*'^'"''^-««werenotMrArmstr A- I thmk nor. f "'*''^"^ ^"^ M^. Pacaud with ^-ou priC? ""^ ^- --« »P there, do you reco„e t . ..^;---occa.ionitwas,ateinthea.™:j: rr ---ameaway.omthebuildin.w.hyou/ '"^^^"^^-"•' »i»*liW«S»-!KS. Elliott Webb 249 he investigation Vfaohin's office? entlemen were iong was that e Pariiament ^^ng room, aud with as when ^ve and A. I think I came away alone, as far as I remember. Q. How long after that, if you cannot precise the date, was it that Mr. Pacaud brought yon the letter ..f credit for $100,000, the first time ? A I could not «ay that Mr. Pacaud brought me the letter of credit. It is possible that Mr. Mnchm may have handed it to me or sent it to me. I don't remember how I received It, but It was either that eveniuK or I think the following day. Q, Do you recollect whether it was sent to your house or sent to the office of the bank ? A. To the bank. Q. When you left the Parliament Buildings did you go to your house or back to the Dank ? • A. I could not say. I may have gone back to the bank ; very likely I did. Q. Do you recollect what became of the other gcntlemon, that is Mr. Pacaud Mr. Armstrong, Mr. Duhamel, and Mr Thom ? A. No, I do not remember. I think they were in the buildings when I left. I am not certam. Q. Was Mr. Lafrance or Mr. Gaboury up there with you at any time ? A. Yes, the same day Mr. Lafrance and Mr. Gah.)ury wore there I think when I left. Q. I understood you to say, Mr. Webb, that Mr. Pacaud had this account with you for a number of years ? j "» A. Well, I could not state positively, about a year I think from memory. Q, Can you tell us whether he has been in the habit of bringing letters of credit issued by the Government, or by the various departments from time to time, to your bank, for A. I think he has brought letters of credit. Q. On several occasions before ? A. I believe so. Q. For large amounts ? A. Well, this is a question that does not come under the investigation. It is eivim? away the private affairs of the bank. ^ Q. There may be a moment when they cease to be private and become public ? A. I don't Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti, addressing witness : — Q. Has it anything to do with this investigation concerning the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ? Witness : — Nothing whatever. Any forme • letters of credit would have nothing to do with this. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— We are of opinion, Mr. Hall, that the question is not relevant at the moment. iTffll - fTi-r— ■ 250 Elliott Webb ^y -Vr. HaU:~ .he bt t ;" "'■ " »' 'toe, e.o. „,.ke ,„„ .„„. ,„.. . ^. Were Irft „„ „„„^^ "le B»„.,„, ,,„ p^^^j^ ^- No, I tliink not. ^ '® ^'^^^e on collection ' ^ ^"" ''"^ ^""er or any ^- I could not say without r.r • ""■ "'^ "°'e - '^e.e. j:;:7--'HeB.„,„,, ----.^^^^^ „,,, ,,„., ,^ Elliolt Webb 261 '" they w^re ti,',t ',000 when these "^''y '^ay to pa„ .uthority to sign lue cheques on 32b, were paid e du People. ''t when pui.I. t these three letter or any ot say ho IV ■colJection. '■ the note you had there ? Q. Did you have any further communication with the Banquedu Peuplo at Montreal? A. No. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Bousquet or the other officers of the l)ank yourself? A. No. y. In the books ot your bank, you have a memorandum showing the date on which the note was left for collection ? A. Yes, that is what I said. Q. Be good enougli to bring a memorandum of the dates on which the cheques Exhibits 32o, 32d, and 32e, were left. Do you recollect whether they were left with you or with one of the other officers of the bank ? A. I don't rempmber. Q. Could you find that out ? A. I could not ascertain tha' Tliey rc, y have been handed to me ; it would only be from memory. Q. Now, in your examination yon have eAfO spoken of two promissory notes, one of $3,000 made by Mr. Pacaud and enJo 1 i^ Mr. Mercier and others. I suppose, of course, that you in your bank keep a liabilitv ledger? A. Yes. Q. In that liability ledger, you enter the names of all parties who are responsible in any way to the bank ? A. Well, in this instance the names were only entered as in the f)ther books. I looked through the books and I can only find the details I have given. Q. Can you tell us, when Mr. Pacaud asked you for the discount of this note of $3,000, what he told you it was for ? A. I could not say. He occasionally got discounts from us and the proceeds went to his credit. There was nothing special that I know. Q. You do not recollect his making any remarks at that time ? A. I think not. Q. Can you tell us whether that was a renewal note or not ? A. I Ciiii look in the books and see it. Q. Tliis note of $3,000 being item 5 in your statement. Exhibit No. 37 ! A. Yes. Q. You might try and refresh ypur memory also, Mr. Webb, as to anything Mr. Pacaud may have said to you when he wanted the discount of the three thousand dollars, or the original note of which this is a renewal Now, coming to the note of $5,000, item 7 of Exhibit 37, do you recollect Mr. Pacaud telling you what that wa« for ? A. No. There were several notes. He would bring in occasionally notes for discount and simply ask me to discount them and place the proceeds to his credit. I think in no instance did he tell me what the notes were for. Q. And in no instance did you enquire ? A. No, I think not. Q. Do you recollect whether this $5,000 note was an original note or a renewal of a prior one ? A. I could not say without referring too. Q. You might be able to get that ? A. Yes, I will. 25:: Elliott Webb O ■ t;';^"^'^y fae:'ween $10,000 and $'0 0()n r ,. A. Ye«!' ''''' '^"^ " wasfaccepted by the bank y ^"' "' *"' '^'^^""^ «*' «^,000 on A. Yes. "^"'* '^^ presented a cheque for $25,000 ? Q- It was within a week ' '^^'"^'n^ei' the date. ^ j-- Yes, I presume. y- fo^e time in October ? ' A. In September or October, yes Q. After Mr P . ""* "''"" *° '"e- A. Ye,. ""■ ' "'P'^"' "«« i°to .h, b.„k ,0 ,e. „„ .- , ^ A- I lhi„k very likely he ,lid. ""^ ^°»'' ™ " """w. did he „„„ At 1 o'c Elliott Webb 25a iscountiiig the letter rrentatyour bank? hat time, or under get it from your tvals at that time. nd by whom '! { unt of $25,000 on fl aak for the cashed over rom Europe ? rcumstances iwa. t? A. He may have. I don't remember the conversation. Q. Well, Mr. Webb, we are of course anxious to get all the information we can, so as to I form a full opinion ? A. Well, he just came in casually, as I remember it. Q. Can you tell us what he said to you when he came in ? A, I think he may have spoken about the withdrawal of the $25,000. Q. Well now, what did he tell you about the withdrawal of that $25,000 ? What reason, did he give you for withdrawing it ? A. I think his object for withdrawing it was that he thought it might be attached in the hands of the bank if it was not withdrawn. Q. Attached by whom ? A. I don't know. By the result of this investigation before the Commission. Q. So he wanted to put it away in some safe place where it could not be touched ? A. I presume that is it. Q. I want to know whether he said something to you with reference to the circum- stancps under which the $100,000 were placed in your ha; _ in May prior ? A. I think not. I don't remember any reference to it at all. Q. There was no reference in the conversation which took place then ? A. I don't remember that there was. Q. Now, did he say anything with reference to the conversation or the meeting you had, had at Mr. Machin's office ? A. No. Q. None whatever ? A. No. Q. Did he make any reference at all to the circumstances under which he had drawn out his cheque last Fall ? A. No. Q. Did he make any reference to the fact that he had not been up before the Senate Committee enquiry ? A,. No, I think not. Q. Are you sure ? A. No, I think not ; he did not refer to it at all, to.any of these questions, aa, far as Iremem^ ber. Q. Did he not ask you for a copy of his account in the bank, or something of that kind? A. No. Q. Has he not asked you lately for that ? A. He may have left his books to be written up, but he has not asked me for a copy of his account. Q, Then, I understand these cheques which were taken out about the 10th August last, were cheques from the Ist Feoruary prior ? A. I believe so. It is stated on the receipt. At 1 o'clock the Commission adjourned till 2 p. m. 254 Elliott Webb ^y Mr. Hall: Q- Mr. Webb, are you able to give tha«.. ^- I have a statement. statement ? — '>* "ju oe ^'if- Hall: addrc'ssino- i^^^ n, ssing the Commission : ■^''"■'"•■- ■'«»"■« Ca«»„;_ ' " J am ready to go on with that part. ^o'^- ^^r. Justice Davidson :~ Well, why not go on with f>,„» It might give rise to difficulty. Not Jikely; he can verify thfirfaf By Mr. Hall .- ' ^ '^^^^ ^"'^ "^^ ^^^ -^ -ear to them. Q- With reference to tha ^ can you teJl us now wh< " , r th«r"'"'^ "'*" "^ ^^'^^O which is U r Whether it was a renew! " "' "^ "*" «"^'"-' ^'"count at i^dat "'.?^^''^* ^^^ 3?. A. It was a renewal. The oridn., °" *''" ^'* ^P^^^' "^ Honourable Honors iu-„ • . ""^inal amount was a rJ^oP* ^ gelier at thirty da^^^Sril'^f^' '""^ 27th FeWyTg ,'"7 ^' ^-^st Pacaud on th. was renewed on tClTlS ZZT'^' ^^'^^^'^^Xd'io Tpl'l- '^ ^^^'^ I-- July eleventh. ^P"' ^^'^^ '^' ^our months date, due Aufn«t f "u' ''"°°""'- This ^ Q. That discount of «3 000 th ""^ ^^^^ -^"d paid Mercier and Mr. Langeli^Jr ''"' ""^ *° -*'- « draft of Mr. Pacaud's . A. Yes. ^acaud s endorsed by Mr. Elliott Webb 255 ^ay of October JS9J, Q. That draft was accepted by Mr. Mercier ? A. I believe so. Q. Do you recollect where it was drawn upon him ' A. I could not state positively. I think it was Montreal. I could ascertain (I. Have you been able to verify whether the $5,000 promissorv nofp v.W-,o\. «.„ for >n the item No. 7 of Exhibit No. 37. was an original not"" ^Jnewal 7 "" '"' A. It was a renewal of a note dated 28th Februar- 1891 at two mnnH.fl rinf. • a u .n^est Pacaud, endorsed by Honourable H. Mercier;F;fnU i^,:, r'^/SaTst^^^ geher ; I have not been able to verify, it yet. "--naries Lan- Q. Have you been able to verify whether the three cheques exhibits Wn« "^9. qo^ and 32 e, were placed in the Union Bank for collection ? ' ^^ '' ^^ ^ *oo nm ^ ^T '' ''•''f """"'^ y*!'''^ I ^"^^-^ "ot verified, showing that two of the cheques for 420,000 each, were depo.sitod in the bank, for collection, on the 12th Mav thTth,^ 1 *20,000. on the 9th July last, but I have not verified the statement persoSy' ''''' ''' SP^.S.^"!.- ^«°".^^«" '^b''' to ^^rify what date the cheque drawn by Mr Pacaud for on tht 2iri;:etbTi85;: fx:i::.'^' ' '^^^ -" ^^^^^^^ ^^^-^-^ '^- ^* - p-^^^ Q. Do you recollect the denomination of the notes? A. The statement shows 20'8, 50's and lOO's. Q. Tell us how many of each ? A. We could not verify it. Q. They would be large bills ? A. Large bills. Q. Do you recollect how that cheque was endorsed ' Q. It was the teller who cashed it ? A. Yes. Q. What is your teller's name ? A. Mr. Laird. Q. Is he in Quebec ? A. Yes. Q. Wnen Mr. Pacaud came in October and drew tbo lflj.f nf T,;- n\. j-j any conversation with him then as to his objectl'drrwlnglese chfqZ T' ''' '"' '^'^ A. I don't think I saw him. I did not know he burl ^r.,™^ ti, e„„n^ .h, „.h„ d.,, .„, f„„ .,„ evidonce "plutd Wotle cZmtSr ""'" "° A. No. Q. Have you had no conver,ation with him as to the object of hi, withdrawing them ? J A. I think not. '^ ^^"'3"^« tliat were witl. Q- ^^oiie whatever? A. No, I think nof v 8»oe i„,„ ,h„ b„„t , • Yo" -Pote of ,he che,„« „,„)„„ «o .he .S5,««. "" "° c™ve„a.l„„, except ,vl,« I.ute , „ ■ .,,,L"'"--«"-»,ui. .™.e .„.„.„ 7 '"'"°"""'''''-- the cheques ? "^ ^ ""^ "ave with Mr Pao ..,,1 f ^- ' don't remember '" ' '''''''''' '^ «°""ection with :?-t^^=r°" -- * -..0. . .e ej A. Short,,. .r,e, hi. ^L" """ "-»'«ion wi.h Mr. P.ca„dr Q- And the only convert?''" "°*''^"^' ^^^'^'^^ nr----==:r.h,-,.,,, Q> Aow, Mr. Webb did A- I believe our solicitor ™ad^ra""''^""''^^° r>ayS^ ""'" "^'°'^ ^'»-e ^' I think I saw a memor.„ , • '"' ""''^^ *^^' ^>"er Q- Do you recollect wTart::: '" ''' '^"'^ "'•-'• -iioito, A- -^o. I don't remember d d " ° ' ''''^^ °'^""^ --« ? Q-Wasitunder*loo,000? ""''"'■"« •■'• A. I did not examine it closely and I H. . ^'^-llcionotremombarthonameaatall. -«.' .in. i a i i ifi iu .w ^>.^, .™™„_i,z_::. Elliott Webb 267 , • ^' /o 'i'^.'" '^'^ ^"^^ statement that our solicitor received, if I remember rieht th« tZJ \ r ™'?"^ ^"^ °'"^""'' ^"' ■" '^ «»bsequent statement I thrk t T J Sluded I speak only from what our solicitor told me in reference to it. ^eluded. Q. You did not see the statement yourself? A. I may have seen one statement, but I did not examine it. I don't know which it wa« Q. You, of course, were examined as a witness before the Senate Committee' A. Ye.s. Q. And there, I think, you deposited what is called a bordereau or something of that ISt'VuinSr^*"" '"'^ ''^"^*^' '" '''' ^"^«" Bankby theBanquerSuplonthl A. Yes. Q, Now, will you look at the exhibit shown t^^ -ou ma-ked Vvliihif dn »„,i * * -r .u . is a copy Of the bordereau showing the bills of .v„ u.irBank with l^e' dep^UeV S that bank by the Banque du Peuple on July 13th 1891 ? aepo.ited with E-.hibit is handed to witness. A. I presume this is a copy. I cannot certify to it. I will produce a certified copy. Q. What does this exhibit which you have just produced. Exhibit No 40. actually mean 1 A. I presume it is a copy ot the bonloreau we received from the Peoples Bank that Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — A. Yes. prev?ou8*d7;f ™'''''"''°'''"'' °' ^'""^ "°'^' '°-- ^^^^^'^^^^ «fbank balances of the theyto^rd^depi^ttuh'ut ^'^^ ^°"'' '^'^''^ in deposits the previous day , Q. This bordereiu would not show that they were Union Bank bills ? A. Yes, it would. Q. If they had an account current they could deposit any bills ? A. It is simply a statement of the bills they received the previous day of our bank. Q. That is not an account current ? A. Certainly it is an account current, because it is not settlau every day, because if ii say «J),0[)0 or $30,000 and the balance runs to the end of the month with'^yoVf ' '" '"°°'"' '■■"""' *" '' '''"' ""^ ^^"^''^ ''^'' " ^""'""g business account A They havo a rui^nin- business account with us, but only deposit cheques on us and b.lU ol ou.' bank aud they draw out as they may have a balance. 17 268 Elliott Webb By Mr. jurJl ;_ Q. This bordereau, EzhiS't w« An i. bills of the Union Bank ?'^'*^"'^'«^°-« '^at the bill« .-hieh .,hey deposit.' A. Certainly. ^.^ aeposite ugte Q. And there were on that day thirteen *inn k-m , A. I presun^e .hat is the stateLlnt "" '^^^""^ ^'^'^ *^« ^n-n Bank ? Q- ^ou say, Mr, Wchh ti,-* i. Q. In every instance ? in.ere., W ,o,. „o,;" """°"'" ' ''• '»"^»"»">e Welie,, jou have chafed I,™ „,„ A.Wehav„e,.,,<,hta„UMheiMe«.. A. Yes. account «534.2o ? Q. Has that not been drawn out? A. I think not. Q. Have you got that account ? A. I have not got it here. Q-Ifyou have it, will you send it? A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .- actio,, ,v.srrem„e.hir.°";. """"■» « £p'e»,°er and Jwf' "'«''»''=«„« w,„io„ havr,r rz-M; -r" "°- '"• ^•»- «' t;';'..;,t zz ivt amount would be seized i., f '• "'** fason, or he made .. a - • ;„ ' 7 ,' ^'""^ ''"^ 'ha,': a. ^fm^mmeKtimit^^ Elliott Webb 259 arged liim ivith this titSion!"' '" '"^''^ '^ "'°™' •'"* Ig^th-e -^^^^^pt:^:^'^:^:^^ - - .tter was to see xt he could get it discounted at some other bank '^'''' ^" °^J««* It ci::oZ^:^^JZS' "'^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ *° ^^ -- ^- ^^d refused it , ^ec^te]:iiVer:^::::^^^^^^^ ^r any purpose outside of the bank, negotiable instrum.i and he couM onTv „f« U ™*ke this advance. It was not a similar one drawn by the T"eLurer ^ 'In' '' V '^^u^^' ''"''" "^'^^ '^^ ™'gl^' ^^ve a addressed to the Union Bank "'' '""'"^ °°' ^' "«^^» by any one else, being Q. Wafl there any other letter subsequently given to you ' A. No. from'^thf ??eZ:rT'°" *" ""^'" """ '=""• "'"■'-' >->» >"'™ "..uW .„„e.hi„g ^ Q. You attached no value to it ? A. I attached no value to it outside of the bank. Q. Did it come to you from Mr. Pacaud ? A. I could not remember how I received fho ioft»^ „ ■ • n it may have come from the Departme'^^^ j^^^^^^^^^^^^ ' ^^ink not. Very likely Bi/ Hon. Mr. Irvine :— -^^^^^"^^l^r^^X^^ o^the 28th April, said that Mr. Pacaud was somewhere in the builSint? " r ""^«"'ood yo« rightly, you A. Yes, as I remember it. ' ' "^ ''' "^ ^'°" ''""'^ ^«'»«'"^'- ? Q. Do you recollect that afternoon whpn vn„ ,.,„ n • , in Louis Street, driving in a cab and rombeTntr T ."^ ^'T' ""^^^'"^ ^'- ^^'''^^ stopped and spoke to you ? ^ ' "'^ ^'■"""^^"'^ °f ">« buildings, and he aftertonr^ot" '^''^ ^''^^^"^ °"' ^^^^ ' ^""^ -* -member whether it waa that Q. You might perhaps remember it hptfoi. t»i,«„ t • , A. I don't remember. I don't recall th^t u ; u, , uon D recall that. It is possible. It may be so. Q. You think it is nnitp ni-ni,. ••» , ' — A. I .I.,,,'. r,„.,„Zlt. ' ""' '' '"■ '"" '-' •'» »»' ^member - A. iiiej neve made payable to Mr r- v * ' -'^™8trong ? Q- But there waa no endorsemenTo. Pal, h"""''"'"^ ""' ''''''''''' "^^ J^™- A. No, there was no .., i "^ "P°" '^em ? A. Yes, usually. ^"eques Q- It is the regular custom ' A. Yes. Q. So that there WHS nothing Pyfmnr^;^ A. Nothmg that I know of. <... r.c«, .„„„ ^„: ::i»'„t™-. ^"' "*■«— ■"- « ».«.X':L.f;t:: A. I understood he saiH tha^ u ^. , signed soon he would cable to Mr ^r ""*"''"' ^^'- Gai-neau that if th. i u e^ec, I could not sa„ but^.'ri J^m^S. hT^ ^ l^ r?^-' - : It^^^ tC And further deponent saith not. ^"^''^ "^^•'««'' ^r. Garneau of ,h„t! Onier-i„.Cou„cil.v„ Zsrrf.h, , ""'""""'"«'Me f'nd of 8 struck ible Mr Q. These documents were protluced in the fyle number six hundred and lorty-seven (647)? A. They were in the record, they were not productd. Q. They were in the record which you had in your department ? A. Yes. Q. Are they all the drafts that you could fmd, either in record six hundred and forty- seven (047), or in any other record respecting the same matter? A. There is another letter which was also in the same record six hundred and forty- seven (647), and containing also proposals from Mr. Thorn, but that letter is only a copy. I do not know what beoame of the original ; the original must have been kept by Mr. Thorn, the copy which we have is not signed by Mr. Thorn, it i- simply marked "(signed) A. M. Thom,'» and is dated the twenty-lirst of April, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891), and is addressed to the Honourable Mr. Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works and Premier ad interim, and contiiins also certain proposals for the construction of the road in conformity with the Act 54 Vict. Q. Have you this draft? A. On the back of this draft of Mr. Thom'a is entered the following note in the Honourable Mr. Garneau's writing : " This project is not accepted." Q. What is the date of that draft ? A. The twenty-first April, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891). Q. Are those all the drafts which you found ? A. Those are all the drafts which I found. Q. Those are the only ones ? A. They are the only ones. Q. Did you look for others ? A, I made a full search. Q. Now, will you state who prepared those letters ? A. It must have been Mr. Thom. Q. Do you know whether it was not some one else who prepared them ? A. No, I have no knowledge of that. Q. Have you the other documents which I asked you to produce ? A. Yes, I have here the copy of the record number six hundred and forty-seven (647), which Your Honours ordered me to produce before them. Q. What are the other dof-ients which you have there ? Q. Your Honours ordered - to produce before them a copy of the notes entered in the record six hundred and forty-seven (647) ; here is a copy with all the notes, ' 'a ill remark to Your Honours that there are several notes made on this record as on the i xnl number six hundred and fifty-three (G33), which is also laid before you, which are for the special guidance of the chief of the office, which are not precisely of an official character, and which would not be produced before the Legislative Assembly unless under a special order, and which would not be produced upon an Order of the House or an Address voted by the House ; they are simply notes for the guidance of the chief of the office, to guide him in the matter. Q. Now, ! iiif^e you were heard as a witness the other day, did you have any conver. sation witl' i . \ one respecting these documents ? A. I had no conversation other than to produce, before this court all the drafts which were not considered official, seeing that they were not signed or that the signature had been struck out. ^ 262 Edouard Moreau A. No. Q- Do you know who it was 9 A. lam entirely ignorant of that , J^ous,uethatyoudiclno;otost K • ■ A. 1 left St. HvftPintv.^ r. T. *' '''^' Hyacinth on Snf.„.) »ot returned to sT^al'tl^sf^' '" "'^"^^«" '-"Jre/^^r JS^t' "".fr^^^^' ' f?' Vou state that ^o , w '^ ^^ ^^ ^'*^^^' ""'' ^ ''ave A. We,,. „::-" -e not .n St. Hyaointhe on Saturday evening. ' handed to me ^i !,. 1 " '^ ""^ "^"«^>'- 'e' (1891 ^ P' F""''""^' ^^'^^' ^^e twent^ signed. -Jl^lr:;::^:^^^^^^^^ '" ^^ -P'^l-a^Se oeen the last page th„.: T^ '"'^'•^■"•*' "ot.s. I 17 ,,« T"'"'''^^'''^ ^^^«not Whole document ShavL^,*'^^. opinion °f the u Klerj"„ed 1^ ' "^^^ ''" '"^ ""^'"^^^ wa. .1 report of one ofT i ' '* """^"^^^'''^ '^ "^e to &" • ''"•' ^'''^°»t ^eadinjr the carefully, I .as co^h ,^! ^.ht; itT"^"/'' '^^ ^^-n a U Tert'^t J '""^"'^ "-' ^^ »« dated the twentieth Ipri e 'ht!" V'1' ''^''' '^ Counc' upon th. / '"''' ''"^'"^ '' Q. Was Hone of th:!^^'.;:^""'^^^^^ 7S;V'"""^^"-""-^'^^^^ A. I do not know, it h. no signlt.^: ''''' '"^* ^^^''^^ ^° ^'-"ci, P , -^":]rir~---t3ou^ Q- Where were all the ren^ t- .r .k „ ^^ '^"'■'*'°"^ '^^<^ matter prepare.! ? "''^ ' '" '"'^ '^^ Honourable Mr. Gar.., au t , n n A. i know nothing about them " ^''""'' ""'^^ ^'^ J ij^J'ou'' department" J-&i-.^.pa...:. ,r y "held in your hand all the time your departmei 'ont, but not ia n. , office. Uhe twentieth April, Edouard Mi'reau 268 it whicJi was ked as being the twenty- papers were lich was not I'Hd havinjf ■eadino- the Jgl't Una it r reading it tion, which »is;l' nave stions are LJP'in til is you were being examined this afternoon, you now fyle them in this cause as Exhibit No. 41, do you not ? A. Yes. Q. Have you other copies or other documents? A. I brought other dockets to complete the three dozen. Here, I made a list of which I have kept a duplicate, which I have signed ; this is the heading : " Dockets of records deposited by the undersigned, with the original documents contained therein, before the Royal Commission, by the order of the Honourable Judges." I add also : " Tuis makes al- together thirty-six dockets or envelopes of records; also four registers of correspondence of my office, Nos. 1, '2, 3 and 4.'' Here is the fourth. Q. You deposit it? A. Yes, with the copy of the docket of the record number six hundred and foity- seven (647). By Mr. Biique : — Q. Mr. Moreau, you found the documents wVi'ch you liave just produced and which are marked number 41 as they are there, with the erasures which they bear ? A. Exactly in the same state. Q. These erasures were made at the time ? A, At the time. Q. As also the additions in pencil or in ink ? A. Exactly, nothing has been changed. Q. Nothing has been changed since that date ? A. Since the twenty-thirJ of April. Q. Now, you have explained, I think, that the eiUiy which you made on one of the luct.ets wiis erroneous and that it had no reference to a draft prepared by the Attorney Generp ' A. well. Q. This entry should have stated that the document referred to a draft report to Council ? A. That is it. Q. Amongst other erasures on one of these document forming the bundle produced under the number 41, are to be found these words, are they not, on the second page of the bundle : '' It being understood, etc. " ? A. Yes, I noticed that that clause was struck out. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetli : — Q. Is that phrase in Mr. Thorn's letter of the twenty-tirst of April ? A. It is in the letter of the twenty-tirst of April, Your Honour. Q. And is that the chief difference or the only difTerence between that letter of the twenty-lirst of April and the letter of the seventeenth of April ? A. There are several other changes, additions, or ensures between that letter, which I compared, and the original of the letter of the sev iteenth. Q. Can you indicate to us, in a few words, whit were the differences between the two proposals ? This letter here was not accepted, I understand, by the Commissioner of Public Works ? A. No, it was set aside . it is marked on the hick, in his writing, as follows: "This draft of letter nt)t aoceptad. Oiu of the clauses which is in the letter of the twenty-first, "'pr.,^^ "■•■ -"-...ws-s,-:^.!,- r-*'"- --'»« co„...™ ,„, te l,i.l l.pfore 11,. H„Tl ,'"'''" °°^''»™ci«lrc,J«„rf,' f '""'""" ""'"over rew, »oMd„„, A..o™^. t"; .rs7,,- "-^e., „. :z r ;: i"o;t:r"" ''™- •" m CouncjJ Xo. 237 of tim 9q . \ ? '^ opinion on the c]ftii,o= . ® Honourable J p J-t-wasnotpJecU :,i'tt^^^^^ ^«'^.^' ' -hieh I Jen ,3 I"' ^^f ^--^'^'^e O,.,' f my own inlbnnatio,, andil/f '!'""' '"''^"^ '"J' chief- 1 nlacP^H ?'"""" ""^ ^^'^'^.y that did not mean that I ^v . "/f '^^^'i •■ " the only report of thi , i^^ "'^^^ ^^^^^ myseh, are produced in the eeolHw ' "' '''^' ' ^^"^^^ toSepre dlte ^ """'^''^ '''^''^ ^rown ' the other which beai the '.- ^ J "*"' ^^ '^^' o'' ^^r. Cannon 1., . P'''''""« '«PO'-t« whi J. the Government I n k^j m """'^ '^*^ ^"«r«ey General h ^^"f ^^^^^ ^or the Honourab e other reports. "' ^"^"^ *'-' ^^^ «imp„ ^or tL!:::;:!;, wiS;?;;:^;^!^^^^^ 5i/^o«.J/..^„,,,.,,^^„.^^^^_._ Henry T. Machin 265 s cover report the Crown to lourable J. j; o'the Order on Saturday here myseli, the Crown,'- sports which reneral, and Honoiiraljle le officer in exclude the n 13th Q. Are you aware that he left the country for Europe on departmental hueinees about ihe 13th ol" March ? A. I am. Q. Who replaced him ? A. Tiie HoMOurahle Air. Boyer. Q. Ad interim ? A. Ad interim. Q. For how louK a time did Mr. Boyer act as Treasurer A. I think about a month. I can't tell distinctly. Q. By reference ? A. Oh, by reference I can. Q. Do that, please. Who succeeded Mr. Boyer ? ' A. Tlie Honourable Mr. Garneau. t^. .\d interim again ? A. Ad interim, yes. Q. Up to what time did he hold his temporary office ? A. He acted until Mr. Shehyn's return. Q. At what date ? A. In the month of July. Q. Fix thiit date also. Upon whom does the Treasurer reiy to be made aware of any particftlar expenditures covered by a vote and that there are necessary funds to the credit of that vote ? A. The Provincial Auditor. Q. Who is he ? A. Mr. Verret. Q. Would that be any part of your duties? A. Not with reference to appropriations. Q. How not with reference to approprintions ? A. The Treasury law provides that the Provincial Auditor shall decide what appropria- tion a payment is to be made from. Q. I 8uppo!mised with the ntal chief ? f think, or sonie- 'tor took place. ^haleurs claims o the capacity apacity of the claims to be '■e in fumis to eiunds which 'Ot think thiit 3 aacl he said be reqiiirpii f told him I uit there was le Oi'di:T-iii- econd com- 'l^'lODO at »ko to me This is the draft which was prepared and submitted to the Attorney General for his approval. Q. Who was the Attorney General ? A. The Honourable Mr. Robidoux. Q. Let mo understand if the suggestion of the Treasurer as to the $50,000 was ever reduced to the form of a letter of credit ? A. It was not. Payments were made in cash on account of these claims for $50,000.00 Q. To whom ? A. Tho warrants were issued in favor of J. C. Langelier, commissioner, represented by Mr. Lesage, of the Public Works Department. Q. To what extent ? A. The first one was $25,000, and the next one $15,000 Q. Can you give us the dates of these ? A. I have not got any memorandum. Q. Do I understand you to say th.at it was after the passage of the Order-in-Council of the 23rd of April that you were informed that it had become necessary to make the payment of the claim of Mr. Armstrong reduced from $300,000 to $175,000 ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And in consequence of that couveisation, you made a draft of a proposed letter of credit ? A. I made a draft,— on the morning of the 28th, I think it was that the draft was pre- pared. ^ Q. Which you have produced ? , A. Yes, Sir, I think it was. Q. Was not the first proposition to issue a single letter of credit for the whole of the $175,000 ? A. My recollection is that the cashier of the bank wished the' letters of credit for $175,000 to be one for $100,000 one for $50,000 and one for $25,000, and that the three letters were prepared in that form, on the :i8th, after Mr. Garneau and myself and Mr. Rosi had been to Mr. Robidou.x's to 8td)mit the question. Q. What cashier do you make reference to ? A. Mr. Webb, of the Union Bank. The three letters of credit were prepared, one for $100,000, one for $50,000 and one for $25,000. Q. Have you the drafts of these prepared letters with you ? A. I have not. I have cotdes of them in the Department. In the afternoon of the 28th, on the representations of Mr. Webb and the cashier of the Banque Nationalo, with the approval of Mr. (Sarneau, one letter for $75,000 m favor of the Banque Nationale was substituted for two letters,— one for $50,000 and the other for $25,000— which had been at first made in favor of the Union Bank; Q. And delivered to whom ? A. The $75,000 letter was delivered by Mr. O'Regan in my department, as he informed me, to the cashier or president of the Banque Nationale. (J. Will you make a memorandum to produce the three original drafts ? A. The original letters, one for $25,000 and one for $50,000, were destroyed. Q. What have you here now, wliat is the draft you have before you 7 A. I have the two letters of credit, one in favor... Q. Let us deal with this one first. Is that the $100,000 draft in the proposed series of $50,000 $25,000 and $100,000 ? VM 268 I-^"ion R.S;'" was the draft of one of the series of three that w 77^^^ ^^^'^ Q-Iti«adcCed/ ''"°"^'^"'^°*"<^'^na^^^ A- Yes, Sir. Q' What is that writincrnt *i i •-wrmngat the head of the draft w,.n «dratt, well, yo„ might read it first? „ T,„ Treasury DEPAR-niKNT, '^"^^•^^™-"-^-.BAXKOECA.A.A. " Quebec. " Sir, "Quebec, 28th April 1891, "oftheProviZLo •''^'"'^'^'"n'>f«100,000willb '" ^«""<^il ^o. 23r or " 7«Qi » ; *«"6bec to the [Jninn n i ' °^ P"^' by tho Treasnrv n ,, 1891. together with int.-rest on .>, '"'' ''^ ^'">'»da, on or beilTi^-^P'"'""'^"' :: payment of ^hfcM b^ atr^^ ^'JT ''^ "^ ^^^^ " o Oh ^ ""^ ™«'^^'^-'''!^' April JS9J. '- ^'"" authorized by an Order-in-CoinHI v ' o"" ^' «"^- ««c. ,J Q- All this is in tvoe w V "'^ ^"^ '^e 23ni of' ^Vi".vou read that V^^^'""'"''"^' ^' "- head of the paper there ,s'so ^ A. "DraftofletteranhmlH ,, , *^ ^'' ''''''"'« ^o™^ "and writing. 1 Sir^ ^«-w •^iriS.Sr ^^- ^--- «-ra, appro^d and sent.- Q- I see some initials in pencH' Q. In company with wliom ? ^■Tohif:^..:^-^^— -lMr.Ross. A. To his house. He wa, in bed Q- At wh„e date WHS that ? A. lhe28.h„fApnI. ""'"""■'""»■ »'"«l'«'tl»0,,l„r.i„,„„ " To THE Ga Henry T. Machin 269 » be given to the it first? ' April 1891. ' Esquire com- i91- to pay the \ to be by him t'il ^o. 2'i7 of ^ Department firat of J„j^. !ate at which ina(le,)_Thi8 8''b- sec, J f" the 23r(l of land writing, sent." ake out the " Quebec, 2Sth April, 1891. •>-"i)'inoil was authoritative for the payment of the money and also as to wliether this letti.T of credit could be issued under it, and if he approved the form. Q. Was his report verbal, in writing or limited to [lutting his initials upon this dralt ? A. His report was verbal, and also he gave his opinion verbally to me. Q. Have you with you the letters of credit as really issued. A. I have. (Letters of credit for $100,000 and *7o,000 are filed as Exhibits No. 43 and No. 44.) Q: You might read the one for $100,000 ? Trkasury Department, " To THE Cashier of the Unio\ Bank of Canada, "Quebec. , ^. ■■' Sir, " You are hereby authorized to advance to John Chrysostdme Langelier, Esquire, Com. " missioner appointed by Order-in-Council No. 238 of the 23rd of April, 189], to pay the "claims of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, the sum of $100,000, to be by him " employed in payment of said ckims under authority of the Order-in-Council No. 237 of " the 23rd of April, 1891, which sum of $100,000 will be paid by the Treasury Department " of the Province of Quebec to the Union Bank of Canada, on or before the first of July " 1891, together with interest on the same at the rate of 5 p. c. per annum from the first of " June next to date of payment. This payment will be made out of the subsidy given by " the Act 54 Vic, ch. 88, sec. 1, sub-sec. J, payment of which has been authorized bv Order- in-Council No. 237 of the 23rJ of April 1891. " I have the honour to be, Sir, " Your obedient servant, " P. GARNEAU, " Acting Provincial Treasurer and Acting Prime Minister P. Q.' Q. The other one is in identical terms, addressed to the Banque Nationale and for 175,000 ? A. And for $75,000, in identical terms. Q. Were these letters of credit issued with your concurrence, as f-u' as the financial operations were concerned ? A. I followed the instructions which were given me. Q. Undor what act were you making the expenditure ? A. Thcexpenditure was made under the act of 54 Vijt., ch. 88, 1 think it is. Q. Do I understand you to state that that act made any sum of money available at that moment for the Baie des Chaleurs railway ? A. The act made the sum of money available, after it was converted, — after the subsidy of land had boen converted by an Ordor-in-Council, and an Order-in-Council, passed authorizing thopaymfHitof any part of that converteil subsidy. That would be the autiiority for the payment. 270 ^enry T. Machin " the^BSTs'^Ch?.'!" ""J^^ ^'^'^ '■^'^^« «« follow. • " Tn • , • ten thousand acres orZdl ^T '' '"'^'^' ^'°'"g '" or nea ^ !'. «''• ^'^^^ "°^ «•« „ or persons, company „r comnan/ ' "°' '° '-^'^^^'1 '" all...80o OOO f m"^' '^ «»'^«'''^- of the said works and^o s .pT" !' "^^J^biishing that they afe^„ f^v ^° '^ny pe,;on „ r.^'^'"^ «'-der, and aiso upon /oJj:!,. '"?'"^' «'°^k for the whole ZlfTJT '° °'^"^- °"t „ Baie des Clialeurs RailwarComn ,"*^''* the balance ofthe nri '7 f. ^''^ '* ^"g^od ^ow I desire to ask you nn,i« u ^ '" ^^'^'^ ^^orking verted into money and low '''^^' --authority these 80(1 Onn Onier-i„-Cou nci, f ' ^"" —ted,- hy .^at partiolrTparrr ^l ^'^"' ^^^'^ -"" A By an Order-in-Council - ' ^*^P-tmental act or hy what t;o"ed „. that same act. There Z T '"'^°"^' '^»* voTt „ find t. . wluch It is said the land s„}.l.V) f " '''''"«« '" that same J ' ? *'''' authority ,nen o^- 1880. rhe original^llttThf :'' '' ''""^^'^'^ "nr.r:,;;;?, T/o!!^ -^ o'" it t" the cinSr '« '^« --^-ieh ;:;i: ;:;::i^i -^-^^^^^ Q- -'1 and 02 Vic ch 9, ,. "'"'^' '■^'■^^^^^ 'o ^r A- That fa rt., , ,„,„,.. _ "'"•"..■Co„„„i,. I, „,., Henry T. Machin 2tl jd^the act go into nd charged against 'f are submitted a« included in the ee- y the Legislature reatedbytheaa 86 su), -dies were r and equi|,pi„ e part not com- 3"), a subsidv of Je to any pet^on ion to carry o,,t Jfeep it in good ebts due by the noftheLieute- company shall ' I'as sufficient good working ncl were con- st or by Avhat liority men. end of it, in i, section 14, erred to for or the con- iry: first a 'ed to and i'- Is that Q. Was there a resolution, and if so, where is it, of the board of directors of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, in this sense ? A. There whs none that I am aware ; I inquired of the Hon. Mr, Garneau with refer- ence to it, and Mr. Gameau said it was considered that the Order-in-Council No. 237 was a giifiicient conversion. Q. Was there any Order-in-Council authorizing the conveision of the land grant into a subsidy ? A. None that I am aware of, except No. 237. Q. Do I understand you to say you drew the attention of the Commissioner of Public Works to the necessity of a compliance with the requirements of this statute and an Order- in-Council ? A. Yes ; after the receipt of the Order-in-Council No. 237, I consulted the Auditor of the Province with reference to it, and we came to the conclusion that there was no conver- sion of the land subsidy. That was our idea, and I went to Mr, Garneau and expressed to him what I thought was the case. That what seemed to be wanted was the conversion of the land subsicfy in the form which had previously been always adopted with reference io the conversion of subsidies, there being a resolution of the board of directors, and on that resolution an Order-in-Council passed converting the subsidy. Q. Are you aware whether there was any memorandum made of this opinion on the part of the Auditor or yourself or by either of you ? A. I am not aware that there was any memorandum, but the Hon. Mr. Garneau con- sulted the Hon. Mr. Ross on this subject, and we all three went to the Attorney General but before we went, when first I expressed my opinion on that subject, Mr. Garneau said the opinion of his colleagues and the law officers was that the Order-in-Council No, 237 was a sutficient conversion of the land subsidy and a sufficient authority for payment, and that he would have a copy of the opinion of the assistant attorney general sent me. Well, I received the copy of an opinion from the assistant attorney general. That was on the 24th and on the 25th I received the opinion of the assistant attorney general. Q. Have you it with you ? A. Yes, I have, notwithstanding that I was still not quite sure about the matter, this M'as not the opinion of the Attorney General himself, nor given as the opinion of the Attorney General, but the opinion of the assistant attorney general, and I told Mr. Gar- ineau that I thousjht it would be advisable for Mr. Itobidoux to give his own opinion on the subject, and he said he would do so and that he would not proceed until he had that, and it was for that purpose that Mr. Garneau, the Hon. Mr. Ross and myself went to see Mr. Eobidoux. This is a copy of the original opinion sent me by the assistant attorney general. Q. Where is the original opinion ? A. I do not knc ... S'l Q. I suppose, in '•>,( law department ? A. I should think ii, will be in the Public Works Department. The Commissi )•; ncljonmed until Wednesday morning, October 2l8t 1891, at 10 A, M. J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commiasion. f^OYAL COMMISSIOJ^ p^ CANADA, Province of Quebec, i ^^trtct of Quebec, 'j 8th SITTIHG PfiESENT ; , nd eight huii,lrn : The Honourable Mr TiiaH«„ t " .^ -^T'J^^^-^J^^ President, « .. ™-''«*»''-'o^*Georoe8 Baby Charles-Peers Davidson. Mr. Hall:— Commmionen. Mr. Beique : — We have no objection whatever. i^on. Mr. .Justice .Tette :— _ There is no objection to the ..rfU>r i. • giving a general onder If vo>,l- > "^' ^'''■^" '' ''»' there miirht b« grams you v.-ant ^"t ^,2 I T '"'"'- ''«'»'^n'I '" writ" f!„ "'T '"^""'^'^- '" '•> Whom «.„t ana to whon,t.e order eS,;;:!";!"'^'" """' '''''■ ■\.?1:^"*-Y. ^Hii Henry T. Machin 273 ON 'gtheHonoiuMhle 5IS-GE0RGfcS B.UiV 1 Davidson, Jurige' facts and circi„r- I made under tl,e nlway Company i eight liimdro ■, omnimioners. erence to an 'ttet. Altera e out of their ito whicli We '■ up to-day ; '10 an order 'y teloErranis ffioulty in what tele- Mr.Hall: I will give tliv Commission the names of the parties. HENRY TURNER MACHIN assistant Provincial Treaanrer is recalled and further examined. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. Is that the opinion of which the original appears in the record of the Puhlic Works Department before the Commission? A. It is. (A copy of this opinion is tiled as Exhibit No. 12) Q. I read in your yesterday afternoon's evidence as follows : " Well, I received a copy of the opinion from the assistant attorney general. That was on the 24th, and on the 2oth I received the opinion of the assistant attorney general." A. On the 24th I received a copy of the Ordor-in-Council. Q. That must be an ermr ? A Yes, Sir, an error. On tlie 24th I received a copy of the Order-in-Council, and on the 2oth I received a copy of the opinion of the assistant attorney general. Q. To which you have just referred ? A. To which I have just referred Q. When you state in your evidence as follows : " This is a copy of the original opinion gent me by the assistant attorney general." You refer to the copy of record in the Depart- ment now with you, and which you have compared with the original opinion in the Public Works record. A. Yes. Q. You will proceed to state, Mr. Machin, what occurred at the interview between Mr. Garneau, Mr. Ross, the Attorney General and yourself when you proceeded to take his opinion with reference to this point. A. We found Mr. Robidoux in bed and I had taken with mo the statutes containing the acts with reference to the conversion of the land subsidy into a money subsidy, and I explained to him my doubts as to the Oider-in-Council No. 237, constituting the conversion of the land subsidy into a money subsidy, as the Orders-in-Council which had been passed previously with reference to the conversion of land subsidies into money subsidies were all pretty much in the same form, setting forth that a railway was entitled under a certain act to a certain land grant, and that under another act — specifying the act — the land sub sidy could be converted into a money subsidy, and setting forth that the company had by means of a resolution of the directors of the company declared its option in favor of the conversion, a copy of which resolution had been received by the Commissioner of Public Works, and recommending therefore that in consequence that the lanil subsidy granted should be converted into a money subsidy ; and I did not find anything of that nature in the Order-in-Council No. 237. Q. Can you give us a copy of the form to which you refer ? A. I can get from the Department a copy of an Order-in-Council converting land sub- sidies into money subsidies. Q. Which will be the ordinary form in which they go to the Department ? A. Yes. .Vr. Hall .' May I suggest to the Commission that in connection with this particular railway there 18 4' 274 ITenrj/ T. Machin give us s^t"l?ii'X"' "'' "'"^' °^""*^' before, in 1889, and perhapa that :^, ^0^- Air. Justice Davidson:-- Proceed Mr. Machin. ^Ae Witness :—■ assistant attorney sZT^tt T''"^ ""''^ "^« «P»"on 4th ' 1 "^ ' ''''^ *''^' '^^ for all purposes, ;«ptX 'a. J,^;''-^ Order-in-Council No. .^7 Is a suffi" ""^'^ ''^ ''^« «oney for the payment of Ltl '*"'^^"'°«"' ^^ to retain in it ha„. f. '""'''«'°" rity for .he paymenTbecaust ,h r; ^'^'^'^ ' ^'«o '^"^^ed him w th r.f ""°"'^' "^^ "'« terms authorizine « 1 ^ «rder-in-Council did not «^ ^^eference to the autho- O Vr,, • 1 ■'^•''"^"t, authorizes that A Net that T maae a matter ■»■■ ±^01 tnat I am aware of t v. Q. TheOomm,- . '^^'''"f- ^ have never seen any \i- -ine «^ommission would liL-o Henry T. Machin 2*75 i-.i- rhapa that might ion, said that Ije ■me proceedings '' constituted at ho said that his 1 given by the ent conversion amount of the e to the autho- >e in the usual ' he considered -•f*280,(X)0.00; i of the same. o the want of '■ally a direct thorizes that ou can you jfeneral ? il were the e a matter chin, as to >e paid. seneJally IS enacted from the ly act of Railway ■0 claim.'' A. The Consolidated Railway Fund. Q. Did the Treaaurer in his Budget Speech make provision for the payment of this subsidy in the then current year of 1890-91 or in the coming financial year beginning on the 30th June, 1891 ? A. This subsidy was not included in the estimates, It had not been made for that year, because no such grant was in existence at the time the estimates were made. I cannot re- collect what was contained in the Budget Speech. Q. Is the pamphlet now shown to you the official publication of the Budget Speech delivered on the 9th December, 1890 ? Pamphlet is handed to witness. A. It is considered so. (Pamphlet is filled as Exhibit No. 45.) Q. I find at page 42 of the pamphlet the following language : " We ask $838,555 for " public works, buildings etc., and $756,956. 25 for subsidies to railways. For the next fiscal " year the expenditure for public works, includinff subsidies to railways, will amount to " $1,695,511.25, which is $34,015.24 more than we have asked for the current year. " Does this subsidy so mentioned as applicable to railways include the sum which would represent the land subsidy to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway when converted ? A. I think not— not the land subsidy that was granted at the last session, Q. Your belief is that the Treasurer took no account of this grant to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, at that moment because it wjis a land, and not a cash, subsidy ; do I understand that ? A. Because at that time the grant had not been made. At the time the Budget Speech was made this grant had not been made by the House. Q. If is a mere matter of calculation, Mr. Machin, T imagine. Would you be good enough just to verify by reference to the totals mentioned in the statute what the $756,000 consisted of? A. Yes. Q. The last clause of Section 8, 54 Vict. ch. 8, was read to you in your previous evi- dence, by which it appears that before claiming any portion of the subsidies above mentioned the Company shall establish to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council that it has suflicient means and is in a position to complete the projected road and keep it in good working order? Did the responsibility for seeing that this requirement of the statute was carried out belong to your department ? A. Not at all. Q. To whose department ? A. The Public Works. ' «— '"e Mr. D^a , ; a rif^ I'.t "'/-^ ^""« ^'^ Tho.,' Garneau that I would have thf. llf ■^'^' ""*' '""e it ^ot prettv « ?t '*''''' signature. The lett, r wl ^"^^ Pre;mre.l a-j soou as no,.,h 7 ' ""*^ ^ '°'*^ ^^^r. thege„t,eu.enthaV h r o:;dS;t7f-'°^^^'^«"^-^^ '^^^^ 't^ ^ "f '^'^ after four o'clock ; and \ S « ".ffif ""^ 'f '^'- "^^ -afternoon, t ,1' t In o'"' •"" the office As T w„c „ • • ^''^ '° S^ ''"'ne, these irentlom. " ''°'"^' ''"'e ■ s^c^fSS^H"--= SEr^^^- that I was not i.. I,. 7" ^'i^-neau's house wl.h the letter o'..lr ; •' *"'' ^'^ "^^^^^ house witlX. .:'':::• !^,fV^f ; "'^^ I'^'^^ --^ think Ih"uri.S^;^ ^'i'' ' *°'^ '''"» I would consent f'- r?n,p" "°''*^'^''' ''« "^^e.i the matter verv«t ''''''*''*' *''*'' the -ent, should'::ec;;,.S: Sf SS^^T '^ Y""^^-^^- "'" i-S' ^^h^ t' ''^' Nationale for I7o()00 and ^1" , ^""'^^ ^"^ take with liimtlie letfV 7nrA- . ^ ^''P**'^" tliiipiiliil Q- Anything further ? A. Nothing further. Q. Have you mentioned alUho ^„ with respect to these lettersVfLljit'??-:,^ the 28th i ■, or -;— - were ^S ^^ IX^S ^ ZZ:^^^^-^ A. I have mentioned a-, the persons with whom I h., anv c ' Q. Up to this time did you see Mr. Pacaud .t a,. ' """'"" "" "^^"'^^^*- ^acaud at alUn connection with the matter' Henry T. Machfn 277 my office an,] ).00(J letters ,f f credit shon III ranee and M, ether it would n to tlie hank me Mr. Thon, -sion amongst, the letter of i find I asked und I told Mr. It to hini loi f' 'ice he had taken, I told ^ fonie linie •evioiis ly leit ked me if I le IVationale me, that he ictions. Mr. It Mr. Thoni id he asked I told him '. Garneau's re that tlio i said that he Depait- theB.inque I'nion Bank . and if he ' lie coiild ■ morning, of credit, signHture r.v of the th April, ipon you siihject. A I saw Mr. Parand only at (he door when I was talking to Mr. Armstrong — the door of the Ptihlic Ruiklings. Q That was at 4 o'clock in the aifrnoon ? A That was, I think, about lialf f>a,st \\n\r; it all events, it was after four o'clock. il- Had you at any previous time had any converscticm with him ? A. With Mr. Paoaud? No. Q. Or had you received any written communication iroiii dm ? A. Ni ne whatever. Q. I ixtend these two (lupstions to any porBon < ban Mr. Pacaud, apart from your (U'partnuntal chief. A. I had no conversation with any other person, lat I am aware of, on the Huhject ixct'i t the parties that I hav. mentioned. Q. Have you any correspondence ill your department in connection with this matter? A. I think there in no correspondence. Q. Did vou address any letters to Mr. Thom or receive any letters from him ? A. No, one. Not that I can remember. Q. You might verify the fact. Q. Apart from Mr. Duhamel had any of the other ministers spoken to you on the subject ? ^ . None, except the Honourable Mr. Garneau ; and the conversation which I ha^ <^ [v ^\ '^\ <^T.>J5, ^Tl.' ^ .<^ ,.v fie ,, „, „ """' '">""'■ J''-" <" 'k«m were S'-SiXrhXr'"-"- '-Webh,e..h,e,„, A. Not in „„„n,„,i„„ „„. ., ,. . ' "" ''"""""'oner, in connection Q. What „„ yo,„ :,'..r.;;-sr-« <•' "« '....« or 0,0.,. A. 10 Mr. LangeJier? -,.,,„.,,„„«„ J. „,,-«- -M.^U^„,ie,, o^oiaiiy or i„ro„n.„y. .b.. b. Henry T. Machin 279 that. 3tter of credit ' "y left your j„ ' furnish oopieg of quests you did so ?d a copy of the 28th April and k notifying that T department. ■ranee of these to them were b'>, Oftshier of stigation ? 1 connection he brought 3 contained led to look e claims as y, that he A. Not that I recollect. Possibly the matter might have occured in conversation in Mr. Garneau's office. Q. In order to bring the matter as certainly as possible to your recollection I read to you from the evidence given by Mr. J. Clirysost6rae Langelier before the Senate Committee as it appears at page 24 : " Q. Who arranged that " ? " A. I was informed by the Department that there would be a letter for $100,000 on the " Union Bunk and that such an amount would be put to my credit. " Q, Who told you that. " A, Mr. Lesage and Mr. Maohin." Witness : — tank ( I have no recollection of making such a statement. Q. What knowledge have you of the proposed action of the Union BaKk on that date ? A. Only the knowledge of the letters of credit themselves directing the bank to advance to Mr. J. C. Langelier the amount. Q. But I mean as to the manner in which the Union Bank proposed to deal with the letters of credit ? A. I had none. Q, What is the official designation which you would give to these letters ? A. We'l, they are called letters of credit ; but there is no official designation for them. Q. Wi'.l you give an official description of what a letter of credit is in its strict sense ? A. Well, I am not awara of any provision in the law by which there should be such a thing as a letter of credit given, and therefore I have no official designation to give of such a document. Q. What descriptive term do you apply to the authority issued for the purpose of making an unforeseen expenditure not covered by any vote of the House ? A. A Special Warrant. Q. That would be essentially different from the form of these letters of credit ? A. Entirely a different thing. The special warrant is the creation of an appropriation, Q. By virtue of an Order-in-Council and the warrant of the Lieutenant Governor or his deputy ? A. And the warrant of the Lieutenant Governor and not his leputy. By Mr. HaU:— Q. Mr. Machin, after these letters of credit were so issued by your department, I under- stand from yoix they were subsequently paid on the 10th July ? ^ A. Yes. Q. In what way were they paid by your department ? A. We paid them by the issue of a warrant and a cheque in acquittal of the warrant— a cheque or cheques. Q. Previous then to the issue of a warrant there is a recommendation made out? A. There is a recommendation prepared by the auditor and submitted to me for approval. Q. Will you look at these four recommendations which have been filed as Exhibit No. 9 and state if these are the recommendations prepared by the auditor and sent to you for approval ? A. They are. Q, And \ipon these recommendations warrants were made out ? < '' :'. ) 280 Henri/ T. Machin Q- You-have K wan-In " '"■''"""^- "^P-'^-ent bv Mr HoU . A. A\e have, yes "'' '" *''« Department ' ^'' °"" ''^'^^ clerks. A. With reference to t .T' "" ">« P»l>I>'c debt' ,, Q- W, Mr. C in '^,f: ;;' ^f^^ -'i the interest on it these letters of credit were giv „ /' ^'"^ "-^ ™""«>- to the credi. .. th^t fund . A. There is no special cfeposit to th ,• """ '^' '^"'^ Q. There was no cash toT ' ,?'' "^'''* «*' that fund on the 28th April, mi ''' '''''' '' ^''«t fund out of which theso let. A- I think the balann. fU . "^"^ "^"'^^ be paid Jl- So, I o.„„„, .,„„ n^"""" ">«' «Kd aa constituted 'me to the fund iind on the date s cc-ild be paid 'e credit of tlie paid ? in our books. I between the * us a memo- and on the y of issuing A. Well, there might be a bnlance at the credit of the Consolidated Railway Fund actually, which had been used for other purposes— for other ordinary or special expenditure. Q. Xow, with reference to the passage of this act had there been any departmental or Governmeatal action with reference tg the 800,000 acres of land under which any bonds were issued, as provided by the Consolidated Railway Fund? A. I do not undei-stand tlie question. Q. I understand from 40 Vict. Ch.2, that the Consolidated Railway Fund is formed out of funds realized frcni the sale of^bonds or debentures negotiated or sold in virtue of any act of the Legislature ? A. Well, when the Legislature authr)rizes the issue of a loan fur certam purposes- Most all the lonns of this Province have been issued for the purpose of paying subsidies to railwiiys, and it is so stated. It is the proceeds of these bonds, when they are sold, that form the Consolidated Railway Fiuid. Q. Precisely ; but up to the date of the issue of the letters of credit there had been no bonds or debentures issued in respect of the vote concerning the BaiedesChaleurs Railway ? A. There is never any connection with any specific railway with reference to these bonds. .The debentures are debentures of the Province, which are authorized by acts to be issued for the purpose of devoting them to the purpose of railways generally that are entitled to receive them. Q. And the statutes have always mentioned the various railway subsidies to be provided for ? A. Not the statute which authorizes the issue of the debentures— or the raising cf the loan and issuing of debentures. That mentions nothing with respect to any individual railway at all : it merely statue the purpose that the proceeds of the debentures when they are sold are to be used for the purpose of the payment of the subsidies to the railways. Q. But these railways are invariably mentioned in the statute ? A. Not in the statute whi^h authorizes the raising of the loan. Q. Well, with reference to the last loan which was authorized at the last session of the Legislature, are you not mistaken ? Look at the Statutes of last session, 54 Vict., ch. 2, authorizing the last loan of $10,000,000 and see in that act if the railways are not referred to? A. Railway subsidies generally are mentioned, amounting to $2,9b8,247.88 ; but I do not find any individual railways mentioned. Q. Now, Mr. Machin. the quotation which you have just given us, does not refer to railways that have already l)een subsidized ? A. Yes, it does. Q. Will you look at the last two clauses of the clause which you have just been reading and see if provision was not made in that to provide for the subsidies voted at that session ; ana ui these subsidies were included the 800,000 acres of land or whatever other grant there was to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ? A. " Railway money subsidies as set forth in the resolutions of the Legislative Assembly adopted on the 23rd December, 1890, $2,544,270."— Yes. Q. Now, what about the next clause there ? A. " The first 35 cts. per acre of the railway land subsidy as set forth in the resolutions " of the Legislative Assembly adopted on the 23rd December, $1,856,050." Q. What I understand is this : The Legislature by 54 Vict., ch. 88, voted certain railway ! i ^'.-i^^rtM'ii-^tXi^sii:.''.- , ^> 282 Henry T. Mack m subsidies, and among others SOftfVvT ~== — ===^=:,,^_ '° the same session were l^f^.tf''? "^'"^"^ ^"'^ ^^e Baie des Ch„7^ ^ ~" authority were ^iv^n I ^ authority to raise a of^rtnt Chaleurs Railway • .nri ■»ade the gr.„i .ulhorL. ,he " "» P"'""' ^ heaot, ., I unZS i'l „?,? " "" '""" "' ^y Mr. Hall:— report of ,h„ Comm,„io„er of P„blic Work. , Henry T. Machin 283 'urs Railway; ^nd money, and in tliat , among others, the lid not have any had not been bor- at grant shall be 'another fund? lie proceeds of a It is the fund out his session which lies granted pro- ' be made imme- that fund' was to ! sold. At the date the when the letters Vict., oh, 2, and 'ce a subsidy is Public Works rned? had you an 3r any other hard to say 'filled ornot. connection Iks? A. Yea. Q. Setting forth that a subsidy has been earned ? A. Recommending the payment of a specific amount. Q. Can you tell us how many interviews you had with Mr. Garneau, with reference to this Order in Council number 237, and the issuing of the letters of credit? A. Well I cannot recollect, but my impression is, that I had three at the least. Q. I understand you that after you had received the Order in Council, Mr. Garneau first of all mentioned that there would be only about fifty thousand dollars wanted to pay claims ? A. It was before I received the Order-in-Council, that Mr. Garneau spoke about the $50,000 claims to be paid. Q. How long after you received the Orderin-Council was it that Mr. Garneau first told you that there would have to be some provision made for the contractor's claim ? A. My impression was that it was the same day that I received the Order in Council, that is my impression. Q. Did you receive from Mr. Garneau a copy of the letter of instructions that he (Mr. Garneau) had sent to Chrysostome Langelier ? A. I did not. Q. Under date of April the fourth ? A. No. Q. I suppose that you have since seen that order of instructions ? A. I have not. Q. Now have you not seen it in the public press ? A. I have not. Q. You have not read the official correspondence between the Lieutenant Governor and the Treasurer of the Province ? A. I have not read it carefully enough to recollect that. Q Do you recollect whether you saw Mr. Thom more than once or twice in Mr. Gar- neau's office ? A. I only recollect seeing him once in Mr. Garneau's office. I saw him once in the outside office. Q. How many times did you see Mr. Thom in your own office ? A. My recollection is that on the afternoon of the twenty eighth was the only time. Q. When you were preparing the two letters of credit ? A. Yes, changing them. Q. Had you see Mr. Thom in the morning of the day, when you wrote out the first letter of credit ? A. I think so, I think on the morning of that date he waa at Mr. Garneau's office, as I went in. Q. And you subsequently saw him in your office in the afternoon ? A. In my own office in the afternoon. Q. It was Mr. Webb and Mr. Gaboury and Mr. Lafrance who came in first ? A. Mr. Webb first and afterwards Mr. Lafrance and Mr. Duhamel. Q. After some conversation they telephoned for Mr. Gabou'-y ? A. Yes. 1 s; t m<'--::zmf-'-:n iL.t^-^%,^T.!i^^-^ s 284 ^^nnj T. Machin A. I presume so. a: 7Z 'Z:to:^,:X^\[- '^^^^ *^« conversation '^ would ..thorize L7o Spf t le^ *"^ "" -t':rtfsVe ;3lrr ''«'-■ -^ A. ll>e b.„k gentlemen did ' °'"'" "«•"■«■■ " "kou. *".t fCoo'i^TP"™*™- ^-"0„e „.„. Q- Who took it up ? A. Mr. O'Regan I th " b- Q- You are not su,e of that '' ""^ "°* ^'»''« «"- of that. ■*■• -iNo, larnnot. Q- O'Regan does not sit ,•„ ♦ u A. No Sir. ' ''' '" ^^^ ««me office with you ? Q- You dont recollect wVi^.k ^ ^ A. He would proSytw^r ^^"' *° ««« him or not ? Q. And the bankers, as 1 nnH . , -ai l^ |B» p« t'»a y i;iii^ »M uim;^ Henry T. Machin 286 '»«tter, with reference eal of hesitation was '■onale, ^ to whether •ticularly Jisten, and '«"•«' his director ' office ? e your office ? ce or twice. ogether t)r about 'nggone before, ty-five thousand vriting it—the Q. They left first and subsequently you left your own office ? A. Yes Sir, I left my own oHice. Q. You came out of the public buildings and when you got outside the door yon met I Mr. Armstrong ? A. I met Mr. Armstrong on the inside— at the door leading out near the porch. Q. Or near the porch ? X. Yes sir. Q. Was any one with him ? A. Mr. Giil)oury was there and Mr. Lafrance I think. Q. Where was Mr. Pacaud. A. Well I was standing talking to Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Pacaud passed into the build- ing through the porch. Q. Then you had a discussion there that you related with Mr. Armstrong about going to Mr. Garneau's house ? A. Yes. Q. You returned to your office ? A. I did. Q. He accompanied you to your office ? A. Well I do not recollect whether any one went. Q. And when you got to your office" who did you see there ? A. I went to O'Regan's office ? Q. Yon did not meet any one in that corridor ? A. I do not recollect. Q. Then you came back in company with O'Regan ? A. Yes sir. Q. He having the letter of credit for seventy five thousand dollars (l7o,000.U0) in his pocket ? A. Yes. Q. And you came back there again where you saw Mr. Gaboury, Mr. Lafrance, and Mr. Armstrong ? A. They were still there as I recollect it ? Q. You told Mr. Armstrong that Mr. O'Regan would go to Mr. Garneau's house ? A. I told Mr. Qabonry. Q. Who went there ? A. Mr. Gaboury. Q, Did you see anyone go with him ? A. I passed straight on. Q. Now from the twentieth of April to the twenty eighth of April were you in the city of Quebec ? A. Not all the time. Q. Do you recollect what date or any date that you were not in Quebec ? A. I WHS not in Quebec on the evening of the twenty-fifth (25th) and twenty-seventh (27th) — the morning of the twenty-seventh (27th). Q. The afternoon of the twenty-fifih and the morning of the twenty-seventh ? A. Yes that I was away. Q. That afternoon and the morning only ? A. It was Saturday afternoon and Monday morning I think. Q. What time did you leave your office on the Saturday afternoon ? A. I left early on Saturday. Q. And you returned to your office at that time ? A. 1 am not sure if I was in my office on Monday at all when I come to think of it Mondiiy \vas a holiday— Arbour Dfvy. 286 Henry T. Mac/iin A. Not in mj. department. '"■mslro.j., | A. No sir he took it ^'7 ' " ''^'"'^'" ^'^^'^ ^ I.»ngelierurclt;.:r;r -""-i-ioner of ,„,,„„ ,v„a-, fa .hi Q- In what .»,• , . "IL. „., , , ""• '""■''°'<'' «"'l J. 0. A. Tliev arP in th i ^^ requisitions ? ^ ^iJiej are in the department. A. No, Sir. ^^ '"'^ ^'^'oi 01' Mr. Q. -"^ow yon were asked I think if fh public Works a le terTo^ 7, ,' '' '^'"^ '^^ ^^^^ibit 22) and then T ^""^ '^^^^^ J"ne Quebec the eighteenth nfT ' '^'P^'^^ent of the PubHcVwJ ''' '" ^'^^ «'« of the letter beinglS L 'to H "? T .^"' "'^"^ '« -^ P ^ "eTt^Eit-r/i;^ ^^'-' Quebec. A'owlwo^iti ikftolf;?"'- ^^"'-' -«-''-t treasured o '!'';• *'' ^^''^ A. I did. """^ '*^^o" received that letter' Province of the sixteenth is the following • ? , ^^'•"^''^":« better to which I referred unH . instant having been subSi /^^ '^°''^«fO'"g conditions of your T?/ ""^^^ ^ate of J„ne ----»™..:r;r-ZtTXr2itSS^^ agi eemg to your proposals." I % Henry T. Machin 287 '«• had Mr. Armstrong', r which Mr. Lanjr, ng''lier the Treasurer of "V the ond, fifteen hun,',n,l lis purpooe, ami J. c. tion? 3m the Honoural.le tions. Yon had „o this claim of Mr, ween yonrdepart- 'ther day a letter i91 (and which is t'hom dated .June m the file of the 'way oflSce, dated ;l>it Wo. 46, said the Province of king to pay this af Public Works? issued by thorn. >f credit issued ? ters are issued ? lese which have I am not made er date of June f tifth f June they entirely ir proposals." I want to know if you are aware of any Order in Council containing any terms as suggested in that elauoe I have just read ? A. I am not. Q. Do you kno\v if there is any other Order in Council passed in connection with the Baie des Chalcurs Railway Company since No. " 237 " ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. And I understand you then to be positive that in connection with this Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company 80 far as you know there are no letters of credit issued since those two of the 'JSth of April 18i)l ? A. None that I am aware of. Q. Or that you have heard of ? A. Or that I have heard of. Q. And none that were entered in your list ? A. No. Q. Was there any correspondence in your Defiartment in connection with those letters of credit exchanged between the Department and Mr. J. C. Langelier ? A. No correspondence with Mr. Langelier. Q. Do you recollect having any conversation at all with Mr. Langelier with reference to those Ifitters of credit or the paymeiit of Mr. Armstrong's claim or any matter connected with it ? A. The only time that I can recollect anything with reference to Mr. Armstrong's claim, was in Mr. Garneau's office when Mr. Garneau was speaking on the subject of Mr. Armstrong's claim and the amount of it. There was produced and I think Mr. Langelier was there— I am sure he was, a sheet of foolscap paper which puiported to be Mr. Arm- strong's claim, and he requested mc to see that the actual tigures had been given by Mr. Armstrong on the paper. I looked at it and told him the matter did not concern me at all. I told him it was a matter for the Public Work;* Department. Q. Will you look in this dossier of the public works at two papers now shown you, one of which purports to be Mr. Armstrong's claim and the other purports to bo a quittance signed by Mr. Armstrong, and state '•' these are the two papers you saw on that occasion just referred to? A. I cannot state positively but that does not look to me to be just the same document that I saw in that office, my impression was that it was a written document, but it may not be so. I did not wish to look at it very much. * Q. Now lor the other payments that you have made under this Order in Council number " 237" you have special receipts and discharges in your department? A. We have the receipts on the warrants. Q. Now in connection with this claim of the Mr. C. N. Armstrong's what receipt have you for the payment of that Treasury claim ? A. We have nothing but the receipt of the bank for the payment of the letters of credit Q. That receipt from the bank consists of letters of credit having been returned ? A. And a receipt at the foot of the warrant for the amount. Q. The Dominion subsidy came into the Consolidated Revenue Fund about the 1st of July ? A. Into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, ■^•«»«*«»."npw»H^. 288 Henry T Macin Q- You ba,I no money to pay this at all? By Mr. Jieique :— '^Sr""'^"-"""" """ "°"""""" -^— ••"-.«...„ Ji.V Hon. }rr. Irvine :~ A. I am positive. ''">' «currecl in you, o« 1, , .:frr„:r:j::::-:---..ret„„i..o.e. A. Each by its own bank. Q. You made some remark abonf fi, A. That would not concern me '''"°" ' miles,goinfftoorn«n.r /J ' ® P*" "»' t^ommence.l anH f . Chaleurs Ruihvav ^Ki^^4*^^M«$ini««etM»»«n^^ Henry T. Machin 289 • it cannot l.o t,il„, ^ ''' sub-section J, and sav if thi ...*c..e...a.,ir„t:„". f:s.i':„srr ,'"'° ^"^ - ™i'- " .rf- Q. Is there any statute requiriuir anvTrm * conversion was made Bubsidy mto a money subsidy' ' '"^ ''^^ ^« '° ^"^^inga conversion of such land grant A. The form for an Order-in-Council ? y- Yes. A. There is no form specified A. ine statute savs thaf if .Vioii u Q- That IS a general statute' A. Yes. Q. It could not be applied in the r. i^\ Hinry T. Machin 291 d the proceeds thfcivof ciaims." the 800,000 acres of ' "f "ed to me that "Id if accepted they nand have to take ? if this sub-section rson or persons or > Council, that they eutenant Governor or with Mr. Thoni Brtie des Chalcnirs 3k company ? plates just sucJi a ipany,_who were ' a«king that the • persons, and the act under which nade. f such land grant the part of the dec! ring their ' the Commis- 'as negotiating >f a new ooni- des Chaleurs A. I am not aware, but my opinion of the Order-in-Council is that "if those conditions were accepted by the company these parties were in a position to acquire the charter. Q. ;Nothing prevented them before acquiring a charter, from demand; jg the conversion ? A. Well, that is not the way it looked to me at the time when I spoke to Mr. Garneau. Q. Any way there is no statute requiring any specific form to be used? A. There is not. Q. You had in your mind the form that was used ordinarily ? A. Yes. Q. And you communicated your impression.— your views to the Attorney General Mr. Rohidoux, and Mr. Robidoux did not agree with you ? ' A. He did not. Q. He agreed in the opinion given 1 A. He did. ie assistant attorney general ? Q. They were the proper authorities to decide, to pass on upon this question? A. They were. Q. Do I understand that Mr. Robidoux told you and Mr. Garneau when you both went to his room on the 28th of April that he entirely agreed with the opinion of the assistant attorney general ? A. I understood him to say so. Q. Now Mr. Machin, suppose for a moment that Mr. Thom would have applied alone independently of any other person to the Government for the benefit arising from section 1 already referred to, and that the Government would have been satisfied that he offered the necessary securities to complete the road and carry on the enterprize, and had accepted hiB proposition, how would he have applied then for the conversion of this land subsidy into money ? Would it have been by resolution ? A. In that case I think he would make simply an application to the Commissioner. Q. Now you find his application in the letter of the 17th of April ? A. I find one of the propositions, which it seemed to me was made. Q. Now this proposition is an application. He is demanding that this be done by the Government, if his proposition is entertained ? A. Yes. Q. Well then dont you find that by the Order in Council it is expressly stated that his proposition is accepted ? A. I do not so understand it. Q. Do you refer to page 26 of the printed official report and sav if you do aot find there the followmgs words: "And upon the said A. M. Thom and the persons in the name of whom he acts, obtaining a transfer ofthe charter ofthe.Baie des Chaleurs Railway, and seeing that the persons mentioned in the propositions there set forth have the necessary means to carry out the enterprize as required by the statute of last session, 54 Vict., Cap. 88 Section 1, Sub-section j, and seeing that it is in the interest of the Province to accept it, the Honour- 1^ 292 Hennj T Machin able Commissioner of Public Wnrlr= ^'^'^^^^^^''^'^''^''^'^''^'^^^^=====^==^--^ Q- It is accepted ? A. Yea. as . "^' "i vAiuncuy - ■ e>'""i' juto moi A. 1 (lid not HO consider it anrl T h^ * -idy to thotlX^'otSo^^^^^^^^^^ 'hat the Government engages to na be employed by he rJ""^''''^'^ "J-" converted into monev^E«; f^*"' ^^ '^"^ «'=' 54 -urplns ifany tire remai! 'S'"* -'°'' *'' '''^'"'"' "^' ^s of tt ''•! ""^^''^bsidy shal, "hall be kent ht thlT ^^^^' ^^^ P'^y^'e^t of such debt! « . .^"''''^' *"*^ ^hat the final settleZntt ''' ^^"'•"'"^"'' *« -"^^ - -oV/t onrrmft'' 'f^^' ^^^^^^ A. Yes '"^«*™« to the company in a A. 739 reads as follows " All money, .r „g °„r.;,v Z "' T "' " " ""«■">« "' Public ".3™''™';'' '" '"« P-""" Q. AVilI yoii read arain section 7-,fl,.,i • t A. Revenue or public money, yes A ,.v no master what source it arises L'oT ^ '^ "^^""« ^ P^^lic money would be included, ^^^'^^tt^i^mtmmtmtmm'- Henry T. Machin 293 1 shall beacor[,te(] tion is accepted.' into money w as oes on to say hig arms. es to pa3- a sub- J8 not the way t states that the 'd by the act 54 id subsidy shall y, and that the 'way company 3 company in a moment that •tioles 739 and er which the for the public c moneys or elong to the :)fficer for or ^, or for the the public 3t belong to or monojs e province 5n account everything included , Q. It would cover pretty generally all the public money ? A. It relates to all the public revenue that comes into our hands. Q. You have been referred to the recommendations fyled as Exhibit "9" will you say if those recommendations were made in the ordinary way ? A. Yes. Q. By the proper officer ? A. By the proper officer. Q. And they were- approved by you ? A. They were. Q. Now was the payment of the amount in question, the one hundred iml seventy- five thousand dollars ($175,000.00) made in the ordinary way ? A. It was made by cheque. Q. Anrl in a proper manner so far as your department wasconcernqd ? A. Entirely.' Q. You have been referred before to two items that were paid, one for fifteen thousund dollars ($15,000) and the other for twenty five thousand dollars ($25,000) to meet the claims of men employed by the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, or public contractors ; will you say from what funds those claims were paid ? A. From the Consolidated Railway Fund. Q. Those items had reference I suppose to the item of fifty thousand dollars ($50,000.00), that you mentioned in your cross-examination ? A. So I understand. Q. You stated that Mr. Garneau had spoken to you at first about the claim of fifty thousand dollars ($50,000.00) ? A. Yes he stated that the claim would amount to fifty thousand dollars ($50,000.00), as I understand the two payments of twenty-five and fifteen thousand dollars and also one of fifteen hundred dollars were to be used in discharging these claims. Q. When Mr. Garneau spoke about the claim of fifty thousand dollar.-^, had it any reference to Mr. Armstrong's claim ? A. He did not mention what claims they were. Q. You understood that at the time the amount had reference to the claims made by parties, who had been working on this line ? A. I knew nothing about the claims at all, because they did not come under my depart- ment at all. Q. You stated before any such payments were made warrants had to be issued ? A. Yes, Sir, warrants had to be issued. Q. Will you say whether warrants were ipsiied in this cause for every item paid by you ? A. All payments paid by the Treasury department are paid with warrants. Q. And so warrants were issued for the seventy-five thousand dollar,^ ($75,00i).0;'l), and the one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000.00), as well as for the tifteen thous md and the the twenty-five thousand dollars ? A. They were. Q. By whom issued ? A. They were prepared in the Treasury Department, and signed by the Deputy Lieutenant Governor. Q. In the ordinary way ? A. In the ordinary way. . Q. And that officer had authority for that ? ^- He was appointed, for that purpose. '"'•''''>-■ '^rr. Justice Davulson.- Q- Are they here "> ^•^^o Sir. I wil, produce them however t. By Mr. Beique .- ' ''^ '^''^ °" '^e list. r|-?K:r;::;^.S^;;; - ^^^ o„e hun^.^ a., se... « , A. Becau.se we had no. °f 'wenty-Hve thousaud and fi^; ' '^'"«'^"'' A- I have no doubt thnf u document ? Q- Will vou turn to th T '' ''°''''''''^- Sc- -Wow the apt t1 ir; i . ' "^ '^* Victoria, Chan s« p. B. Duminilin 29& ty-five thousand fi'teen thou.saiul ler ? ite at what date r, one thousand >. for the year ference to the re introduced id there tlmt >-* Victoria, A. I understood Mr. Thorn's reasons, which were expressed to the CommiBuioner of Public Works, that his syndicnte or people would not wait, and Mr. Armstrong told me that, if the matter was not settled that day Mr. Tliom would leave. Q. And that w^s expressed by Mr. Tliom to Mr. Garneau himself in j our hearing ? A. That is my recollection of it. Q. That if the matter was not closed on that day, he would leave and give up the negotiations? A. I did not hear him, say that positively to Mr. Garnean, that is Mr. Thom — Mr. Armstrong stated that — Mr. Thom stated that his people would not wait any longer as I understood him. By Mr. Hall:— Q. yumouhn A- Yes, Sir. Q- You were oskerf T *»,.- i • ^'ssory note with c^lv ' '" "'« '"""'h of May I«.^ , .- (.20.000) . -- neurit, .ere .ou n^CV^tr^rrrt/^ ^^^''^-^ p.. A. Mr. V.illi^r fl'scount ? «■ U>, -^ sixth of August that Mr. Pacaud signed a receipt to the bank, and I think that the cheqc . were sent to him the next day, the seventh. He came on the sixth, he signed a receipt, and on the next day I think the bank returned him his cheques- Q. Was that returning of his c leques made in the ordinary course of business, aa it is usually done ? A. Yes. A. Was it Mr. Pacaud's oistom to withdraw his cheques ? A. I think [so ; Mr. Pacaud withdrew his cheques a year previously, in the month of September, I think, on the eleventh of the month, Q. Was u Mr. Pacaud himself who went for his cheques ? A. Yes, because it was he who signed the receipt. Q. What officer of the Bank returned the cheques to Mr. Pacaud ? A. I think it wa« the cheque accepter, a Mr. Gagnon, but-I am not positive. 298 ■f B. Ehimoulit ,, A. Yes. That clerk is i.., """^'^ "^ «='^e„.es to >, A- Mr.L....e.ooU.eon,ina, • ^ "^"^^' ^^ ^^^'-^'^ea the cop, Q- But it wa. no. m. U.^r^CZ^l^ ' "^^ °^^* ^"^ -'^^^'^ it. A- No, I do not think it WHS he ' °^'^"^ ^ Q- He n,erely certified that copv? , A. He made the copy himseJf. " H. And he certified it ? A. He certified it approving Mr. Langelierarcomt-'^ to take communication nfrT'"'«««"ritie.. bank solicitor would hav. ? . "'""^'"^"^ authorizimr thp ° V'^ ^'"'^^^ in Council discounting Mr Vall L- "'' "^ ^« consulted and til ''"^ ''^^ '^^^^ of credit f hi A:'v:r"'^"-»'™-"^->«„.,„„„„..,,^, isnoteofMr.Valli^res? t3mmmfK''mf«Kn>mmimstiimmrtftm p. B. Dunioulin 2'.^9 'le cheqi inot appear I.ef„re cheques. 'o advance ntseciiritieg. f in Council 'fcretlit. the Montreal ; in viously au- Q. You did not suggest the procuring of a note I'rom a customer of the bank. You were not asked first to discount a cheque. A. Tliey came with the note and cheque. Q. Now, you gave the discount, as you say, of your own motion, because you had been authorized to make advances to Mr. Vallii^re ? A. Yes. Q. But, after having given the discount, did you report to the head otlice at Montreal ? A. Yes. The amount being large I at once wrote to the cashier, informing him that I had that day discounted a note for twenty thousand dollars (*20.0(iO) for Mr. Valli^re, and that Mr. Vallifere had a guarantee from the Government which he left with me, which I would myself collect on the tenth of July, und that the proceeds would be applied to pay Mr. Valli^re's note. Q. Had you at the time in the bank any promiissory notes, which were due to the bank liy Mr. Pacaud or by any other persons, which bore Mr. Pacaud's signature ? A. I did not refer to my books on that day ; but when Mr. Pacaud asked for the dis- count, as I said to Mr. Pacaud that I was short of funds to advance him twenty thousand dollars ($20,000), he remarked that the proceeds of the discount were to pay promissory notes coming due gradually between that date, the sixth of May. and the third of June, and that among others there was a note for five thousand dollars ($5,000) payable at the Banque du Peuple; that consequently I would only have to disburse fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000). But later, when I was called upon to give evidence before the Senate, I searched my books and I could only trace seventeen hundred dollars ($1,700) of notes which Mr. Pacaud had paid in place of the five thousand dollars ($;),000) which he had mentioned. Q. Can you enumerate these seventeen hundred dollars ($1,700) which you traced? A. There is an exhibit which was produced before the Senate which gives that ; but I think I remember it was a promissory note for one thou.sand dollars, ($1,000). Q. Was there not first a promissory note of Mr. Carrier for four hundred dollars ($400) ? A. Yes. Q. A promissory note of Mr. James Carrell for one hundred awd fifty dollars ($150) ? A. Yes. Q. Endorsed by Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yes. A promissory note of Mr. Deschfines for one hundred and fifty dollars ($150), Q. Also endorsed by Mr. Pacaud? A. Yes. Q. And a promissory note of Mr. Tarte for one thousand dollars ($1,000), endorsed by Mr. Pacaud ? A. And by the Honourable Francois Langelier. Q. Was not this last promissory note of Mr. Tarte refused the first time you were asked to discount it ? A, Yes, Sir. Q. Why did you afterwards discount it ? A, I had every confidence in Mr. Tai it I was not auth '''zed to make advances on his name. Then I waa asked if I would accept the note enoorsed by the Honourable 800 P- B. Dumoulin Fraiiyois Langelier I ■ i '^^''''^^'^ ""^"""^^^r— — . I disoountej, it. ' '"" >'-• ^he note was shortly after,vard« ..ought to TT""" ^•l A\ III you as.prtnin w .. '""gfit to the bank u,,,) O"!!... («,9,7.;, , "" "»' -"^ 0"t of the ,„„„,,„ ., . ;*■ I' ».. .iu„ <„,Z Sh ;■ "" °" "■° '«""" • I Y,;'2,.P»'" °" "» eleven* ; Q- It is exceptional ? A- It is exceptional. A:Y:!^r^^^^^"-^'-^h-ccasion. r'i«colt'erth,t'note"onrvi^ '^^^ "^ «--*« that there had h 'n your bank ; will vou teil!« wH'' °' ^ '^'^'^'^ ''"^^ «hou d t >!" k'"'! ''"°' *^«" >ou ^ ,A. I thought th^t ll j'rr^^/'^'^-^hatoccatl'^ «over„n.;„t make a depoi" you Pleaae repeat th^ . A.. I P.;Vcd. ^i 1 -o^i- f "^ ""y thousand on this subject before tlie p. B. Dumoutin 808 At page tbrty-five (45) you »&y this : " Q. N'ow, this letter (Exhibit 26), is the extract from Exhibit i!7. Would you be kind " enon!,'li to read the extract which you omitted from No. '20. Read it in English, pltase? " A. TT.e inconvenience I saw in making this transaction wa« the stringency of funds " in wliich J am. I at first reiused for tliis, reason, but the Hon. Charles Langelier, who "accomjianied Mr. Vallifcre, promiecs me a deposit of $/)0,000 upon the proceeds of tlie loan, '' and this besides the amount that you ex{)ect to receive yoursel ". Under the circum- " stances, I decided to make the transaction." Now, at i)iige 47, the following is found : " C^. I do not want to ask too many questions. Tell us, please, what took place and " what part Mr. Langelier took? "A. He (lid not take a great part, I think; lie made nic a proiniai of the deposit of " tdO.OUCl, I iisked him for that. " Q. If you put this transaction througn? ■' \. Ni>. I decided to advance the money, but I told him we were short u' money, and as " they were going to receive a large amount because they were making a loan, ' would ex pcct " to have a deposit made in my branch of at least $.")0,(iOO, and upon that Ik gave me the " promise to make the deposit. That decided me altogether to make the ad vanci but I believe " "t was not my principal reason ; T would have made the loan on account of Mr. ValliSre '' being one of our customers. " Q. When Mr. Langelier gave you the promise, on your asking him, that i he Qovern- " ment would deposit $50,000, you decided to let the loan go through ? " A. That was one of the reasons ; but I declare I would have discounted the note all " the same, Mr. Vallifere being one of our customers. But I was glad to be able to ar nounce to '■ our cashier that we were going to receive such a deposit. I was working in ; business " way. " By the Hon. ATr. Taa»t :— '■ Q. For how how long was that deposit to last ? A. Nothing was said about that. I was going to try to keep it as long as I ossibly " could, but nothing was said " Q. For how long did you expect that deposit to be kept ? " A. For some time. " Q. For how long ? " A. F<>r threo or six months or a year or twj possibly." Q. 1-. that what you said before the Senate ? A. Yes. Q. And what you said before the Senate was the truth ? A. Yes. Q. Now on the day ni question, before writing to Mr. Bousquet, I think you had r lade the report which you make daily to your chief in Montreal had you not ? A, No, that was a report I made, because the amount was large ; but I was not bound to make it, I might have dispensed with it. Q. Do you not make daily reports to your chief in Montreal ? A. A formal report, but not a special report. Q. The formal report which you had to make, was made before you wrote to Mr. Bousquet ? 304 ^- B. Dutnoulin A No, it was made the next dav. --^ H- If you make one ov^rv i Q- But on that day yot. made one ^ "^ ' '" ''^"^'« '"'^^^ ^^^^ "ext day ' A. For the previous day A. Well wh I produced a moment a^o _*■ V.., Sir, i. i. „, ^„,„,^ J, ;'■-'' P'»™«ory note fa f„„ ,„„,„, J^ . :ss=-:-~sr:::::::.:"- A. Yes, Sir. ' *^^ Honourable «.Me™b»,„..eH„.,„„,c„„„™, A. Ye., b., of.™,. ""• ''•"^""S-'-o.,,.. Q- The date of M,. Carrier', „„,e „,. ,,,„ , A. YcB *^"'' notes- discounted, there wa^ a balance T*;. •?"'•' "''^"^'^"•' '1^^"'^^' On the \ "'"*'': ''^^ '"•^'<-'^«<''^ balance Mr. Pacaud had ?'■' *'^"'' °'^''-« hundred audsuVaollt' T "°"'' '^'^ •> ^uiiais, and out of the p. B. Dumoulin 805 at day apart iVon, I8t told you ? ext day. Q. The balance that he had on the fifth or the «ixth of May, wa* two hundred and nine- teen dollars and sixty-nine cents ($219 69) ■' A. Yes. or retwdnorf " ""''"" ''''" "''" "'"°' ' '^^^ j"«* °^«"*^°-'^' ^-^ °"g^-l "Otes A. I think that the four hundred dollars note, and the thousand dollar note had not been renewed. I think so, I am not positive. o'mr noie nad Mt Q. The other two ? A. I do not know. Q. You do not know? A. No. Q. You should have in your bank a book by which you could tell ? A. Doubtless. Q. I would a.k you to take a note of that and give me that information ? Mr, BHque : — • ^* !lT T '^f'^' objection, but I think it is our duty to call to the attention of the Com mission ha these facts go entirely beyond the limits of the enquiry. What is now b queS has absolutely nothing to do of what moment is it that Mr. Carrier's or Mr. Dechlno.s notes were paid out of the money, and that it was a renewal, what of that ? i doe, To concern the inquiry which Your Honours are called upon to make. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— Mr. Beique : — It is MtoblirtGd by the witn«.. tlmt Iheje cheque, were given to pay ttat. Now whelfe, sr:t.riirL":;^L7.."""'^"'"^ -'" "■»" *" ">« ^» 4.hi„;:'rt5s Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— I do not see that the objection is founded, although at first sight it is plausible • Ithinl. It better to allow all possible latitude. s >- »- •» piausmie , l think By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. A»t°tliedei>o,itra.deloyoorb.„lti„thenaraeofMr.Cli.rle.Lati2elier IV,rfl„„ tb„»a,.d,l„U.„o„ the eleventh of J„,y, can yon .e„ „. ir Mr. C^^rC^X^ltZ A. Yes Sir. Q. He drew against it ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Mr. Dumoulin about thit date, between tlio fw«nfv £>;„t,fu p a •■ of July were there at your bank prom sorrnotes 111^4 1^^^^^^^ " "'"'"*^ other than those you have already spoken otT ^ '" "** ' "*'"' ""^ '^'"^ ' 20 806 P- R. Dunwuli A. I am not aware of any. ^Ir. Casgrain :— T-Ae WUness .- ° *^^* "^^ ™^y establish this fact "°'^'' • ^™°i">e twenty eighth April? % ^/r. Casgrain /— Q- Up to what date ? "^"^^' ^^^^ "° connection with those C "°''' ^^'^^'^'^'^ A. Up t^o the third of June. only twop/d;XrrnSr"°"°^«--^- M^racaud-s account the A. I do not wish to disclosP /hi . account, there were A. S "'""'"^ ""O "'n'tMn ifi«m'>«H««iBina)nn»inniTOi p. B. Dumoulin 307 allied ? refer lo his book wt. 8, JOiinted tlit i:ote the notes wl-ich 'unt, there were ollars ? I equal amount. hundred and notes due by iherwise? s or engage- Jf June, Mr. matters out- mmunicate ^e diaclosud 'wish yoii 3 not with- : May 9th, ^- whether these notes have Mr, Tacaud's name aa maker or endorser, and what are the names of the other endorsers and makers of these notes ? (The witness takes a note of the question.) Q. Now, I wish also to draw your attention to the following question : if these sums were not used to pay notes, I ask you to state if they were not deposited in your hank by means of bordereaux, and in whose name such bordereaux are, and who signed such bor- deraux ? Will you take a note of that question also Mr. Dumoulin ? (The witness takes a note of the question) Q. Now, Sir, as to the cheques which were withdrawn on Mr. Pacaud's account, I wish to know if you saw any of those cheques and if you remember any of the names which were on the ciheques ? Q. The cheques drawn by Mr. Pacaud. Q. Yes. A. No. , Q. You did not see any ? A. No. Q. Not one ? A. No. Q. Did you see them when they were withdrawn afterwards ? A. Neither before nor after. Q. You never noticed them neither before nor after ? A. No. ' Q. You had no knowledge of one of them ? A. No, none. Q. Not one ? A. No. Q. You do not remember if these cheques were endorsed by one Harris ? A. No... Q. By one George ? A. You remind me. Mr. Barwick showed me two or three cheques after my first «vidence giren before the Senate and it seems to me that I saw the name of Mr. Harris on ■one of these cheques. Q. Did you see the endorsement of Mr. L. P. Sirois on one of the cheques ? A. I think so. Q. Mr. Sirois Notary ? A, I think so. Q. On the cheque for seven thousand dollars ? A. I think it was the cheque for seven thous^ind dollars. Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Pacaud as to the possibility of the bank tracing cheques, once the cheques have been returned by the bank to the maker? A. No. Q. Are you not accustomed ; in your bank, is not some one in your bank accustomed every morning to review the cheques, so as to sea where your money has gone ? A. No. Q. Is there not some clerk in the bank who does that. 308 P- B. Dumouli, A order. Q. A. Q. A. Q- A. Q. A. Q. A. Q, for the A Q. A. ■ '""" " " °^^^^™^^^^^^^ — ^ i A m«.e„ge, of .hs b.„k , '''""" '" ""''"-"cl I Yes. It 18 not a clerk who does that? Mr. Fiset. What is his christian name' I think that it is Pierre I am . ^ '""• What is the name of thl n '"'" chcue,? ''"^^^^^^P^^-g teller in your bank. The one who pay. th Mr.Ben.^it. "'"'' Pay» the money What is his christian name* Anstide. By Hon. Mr. Irvine .•— Q. Did you know, whpn nr.. n Q. You did not know •> A. N,.. Q. You have since learned it •> By Mr. Arnyot :— it -ii^zsi:^:?:^:ti if-; """^^"^ '^«^'««' ^obemade bv the, , A. Yes. '"'"'^^^^^^'^t'^'^^vou wished to have thrd^^jtl '^""'™"™t. Q. You considered it an advHntflge to h«vo A. Yes. ""^« '^ h^^'« '"ore n^oney at your disposal ? Q. If I understand vou ii introduce Mr. ing these funds ' Mr. ■\^•ebb or ited? ■• I'acaud, after whom he saw ? ^ndhe spoke to Puiih'o Works ee the letter altogether in come to the Pnt up with 'au'8 depart- le Jetters of correct. Mr. Hamel our who came flecided to p and you A. Yes. Q. Had you any knowledge at the time that the Union Bank had consented to make a concurrent advance of another sum ? A. Yes, the Union Bank was to take one letter. At first, I do not know if I should say it, it had promised to take the whole transaction, it waa to take the whole amount, from what Mr. Webb had said. On that day the Union Bank was to take $100,000 and the Banque Nationale 175,000. Q. While you were at the Treasury Department awaiting the final drawing up of that letter, did you see any other person who went there, either one of the ministers or one of the parties interested. Was Mr. Thom there ? A. Mr. Thom was there, a part of the time in the Treasury Department I think, that i.s in Mr. Machin's department. Q. Was Mr. Webb there? A. Mr. Webb wiw there. I do not remember if any of the ministers came in while I was there, Q. Did Mr. Duhaniel come in ? A. I do not remember having seen him. Q. Mr. Pacaud was the first to look after it. It was he who first spoke to yonr presi- dent? A. I believe so, I think. Q. In any case, you left with an oflScial of the department and you went to get the letter signed by Mr. Garneau ? A. Yes. Q. Then as it was after oftice hours, you placed the amount of the discount in the letter of ■ redit to the credit of Mr. Langelier, the commijsioner, on the following day. A. The amount was placed to Mr. Langelier's credit on the following day, but the cheque wns accepted the day before. On the 28th these gentlemen came down to the Banque Nationale Q. Immediately after obtaining Mr. Garneau's signature to the letter of credit, you went down to the Banque Nationale ? A. Yes, I went down to the Banque Nationale. Q. What time was it ? A. It was Kix o'clock at the time. The employees were waiting for me. Q. Then, the cheques were immeliately madetodiawout the proceeds of the discount? A, Not the whole proceeds, but several cheques were given, three or four cheques. The first, the largest is produced. Q. The amount of the discount was placed to the credit of A. J. C. Langelier commissioner, in his quality of commissioner. Q. By r/hom were these cheques drawn and signed ? A. By Mr. Langelier in his quality of commissioner also. Q. Then Mr. Langelier had been sent for ? A. Mr. Langelier had gone down, yes. Q. Where did you meet him ? A. I met Mr. Langelier at the bank, I think, the first time. I do not know that I saw him at the departmsnt. Q. Where did you return from Mr. Garneau's ? A. I went down to the bank alone. Tliese gentlemen came down afterwards. I waited for them ; Mr. Thom, Mr. Langelier, and Mr. Armstrong. iffit. Si 2 Pl«re Oeorge Lafmnc A. ?»:'"'«»'-""•«.'« Who we„Uh,„. . ^ ?• 1° ^^J^n' i« it payable ? ^ """"^^ ^>' Mr. Arnr remember. ^^^^'""'a'softheaccnnn* * A. I beg vour pardon I rl °'" ^- ^- H Q- Jjhe third cheque ? ' ' '' ''''^''^''^ lastly by the to the "order TfcV^T ''"*'"^' ^^^^'^W, same date «,• . . ^o-re. Ba„.^aV;,fbr''°- ^^ '"^ -'ors:d''f.*P;rb^^'^^^^ Q- It probably erne to you thr . "''^'"'''^ ^^ "'« . A. Written by Mr a,.^ » ninth of April isQTT'''""^a'8o. There is « u ''• *• *™«'»n« ow,J .o„,o.h,l a ,h ■°'° *"""• ' "'"■""■'"*■•. I>« paid with ,h,. Pierre Georf^e Laf ranee 313 nmissioner seel by the Q. It did not come to you through your Montreal branch? A. I beg your pardon. I kept that cheque myself, and I sent it to Montreal. It must be endorsed by Armstrong I thought that it had been paid in Quebec, but the amount was paid in Montreal, the balance in Montreal alter reimbursing the bank the amount due Q. You retained the amount of a small note of Duquct's Is there not written on this cheque "To pay Armstrong's note re Duquet ? A. It is not Duquet it is Dayet. Yes. It was a matter of fifty odd dollars. The balance was to go to Armstrong after paying the CHpital and costs, if any. The last cheque is dated the 13th of July IS'.U for the >>\Mn of $2,250. It is in Mr. Langelier's writing I believe. It is signed J. C. Lanpelier. It is made to the order of James Cooper. Mr. Cooper seems to have endorsed it and it came to the Banque Nationale, through the Bank of Toronto in Montreal. Q. Of these different cheques there are only three which are dated the twenty-eighth of April? A. There are only three. Q. Was the cheque for $111 which is dated on the twenty-ninth of April made on the same day ? A, It was made on that day the 29th. Q. The day after ? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Langelier then return to the bank to make the cheque? A. They returned to the bank the next morning. Q. The first three were made and delivered at once to the accountant ? A. They were made the day before and given Q. Wa« that one dated the thirteenth of July made at the bank, or was it brought to you subsequently:? A . I think it was made at the bank. Q, On the thirteenth of July ? A. On the thirteenth of July. I do not remember well if that was the date, but I saw Mr. Langelier who was at the bank and wished to draw that balance. Q. You kept a certain balance ? A. Yes. Q. For what purpose ? A. It was in case the letter of credit should not be paid on the date fixed, the tenth of July : we wished to retain the interest in advance, a part of the interest. Q. Alter the letter of credit was paid. Mi-. Armstrong and Mr. Langelier came to the bank to withdraw the balance ? A. Mr, Langelier came alone. Q. Did he give you a cheque or did he then leave a cheque for Mr. Armstrong, or did he come to ascertain what was the exact balance ? A. That cheque must have been made in Quebec, to bearer, but he must have h I ^« open, an _.„. .. .i. an. ... Hi™ ere.it .r tHat amount , ' Q- Ha« he had an account since then ? I ^ -^pSS^Z:t; J? '- '- '^ -- — ion« since. Q- The account.is now closed? A. ^he account is now closed. Q Mr Pip ^ V, '"''" 'or the transaction. Q. For a certain amount ? A. For a certain amount. ;^ For a sufficiently large amount? Jhe witness does not answer Pierre George L(if ranee 81& ant? ons since. male advanced a what date that twenty thoiisaiul ->y Mr. Valli6rc, 3r was it simply signed by Mr. Union Bank... T the amount d be paid. J or Mr. Val- ction. I to discount •■ transaction. account ami transaction which you iue by Mr. Q. Have you any notes tv--* -vould assist you? ,ln1I«tn?'''*'""'T ""'''; .\ ''"°'' '^""^ "" "''' ''^'"^^ '^'^y °"« °*"the five thousand dollar noto^ was paid, upon which Mr. P..caud was the promissor. Q. On the same day as the discount ? A. On the Hame day as the discount. dollars ?^" ^ '"' '""''"'''"'■ ^^'''^ "'^"'^'' ^^'•^ o" t^at promissory note for five thousand nrdpf^f-T!"' '^^^ ♦h'^V^'"/'"'^ '^"^ ''''^'' '""'* '^''^^ ^""'^ ^^'- I'''«'^»'l "^s Ihe maker, to the order of the Honourable Honore Mercier, and it was endorsed Q. Were there other endorsers ? rv.nrt ^T^"''";^^''^ *^f Honourable Francois Langolier who was an endorser, the Honourable tnarles Langolier and the Honourable C. A. P. Pelletier. Q. Was the promissory note due when it was paid ? A. It W.18 paid three days before it became due. It was due on the eighteenth. y. Was It not dated on the fifteenth of April ' A. Yes. Q. Then it was a note at one moTith ? A. It was a note at one month. . .hnrm- ^\^ ^^'' ^''*'*"'' '""T'^^ ""^^^^ '""'' • °*^ ^« ^••*^ o^^er cheques on that account snortlj alterwards, or on the same day ? A. On the same day he drew another cheque for five thousand dollars and another for two hundred and fifty dollars. Q. Can you say what that cheque for five thousand was for? A. It was to pay a bill of exchange in Paris in favour of the Honourable Mr. Morcier. quisLnrthau'lT '"' '°""""' "'" ^''"" " '"'' """^ ''''' whether it is the re- A. This is a requisition for a bill of 25,5f)0 francs on Paris in favour of the Honourable Mr. Mercier, tor the value of five thousand dollars at the rate of exchange. Q. Do you know by whom that requisition is written. A. By me, at Mr. Facaud's request. Mr. Pacaud asked me for a bill of exchange. I hlled up the requisition myself. Q. Is it signed by Mr. Pacaud ? A It is .igned by me and Mr. Pacaud per P. L., I placed the name of the person who asked for the letter by me. Q. I see in the statement produced before the Senate that the bahmce of that account was drawn out by cheques of which the-e are no details, a balance of $9,732; can you give me the details of that ? j'"" si»e A. I can give no details of these cheques. I only see the amount. Q. Can you give us the amounts in detail ? for them ^''''^ ^^^ amounts in detail. I have the details of the account if the court wishes Q. Will you produce that document soon? asExWblrNo'M"''^ ^^ * """^^ ^^'''^ ''"' produced before the Senate. I produce it It being four o'clock the meeting was adjourned until the following day. J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commission. 'iS^RilpUl/!:. SSiaia»Se*m:rrm:-K3i. -, CANADA, , ^'n.,«/e„te. ■/ liOYAL COMMISSION 9th SITTING Present : 'i-eHonou..eMr.J„3tieeLo.sA.W,Pre.,,„, .. J:"'''" ^"^''5018 Georges Baby Charles Peers Davidson, -'/r. i^^tgwe :— Commissioners. I think that is mv flnt 7 f,^ n u *50,000 for him«if ■^*^*"'' 'lad adnntted to Mr Webb t>.a« ?\ .^ P"''''^- '^^c., etc - " ur nimself persona Iv $3f)fvv>»„ ,,""'** out of the finnnnofi ™i3sio; in Sh L °-? "'^^"'^ ^° ^'"-ch I m7gh d? w;^ ^°'"'««°'=-"ent of the "^ the evidence is daily travestied iTfr!' '^'" ""^""•^'i «'' ">e Com- Hon. Mr. Justice Jette : "njnst.dable manner. deserve WeThbuET' "'•""■'^' ^^^°^« "« i* ometi,n; dim't 1 '"' "'''" "^^ ^e in a matter7eA' 1 befo""'"'"^' '" '^ "^'»"«^ "f this ktd ' *'"" f '^''"^ '^^™ ^« ^^ey If these gentlemei won,tr ^? "'^'"•'^'■>' ^""""^ '« ^'o an vtht el p T "''''' lled. when wo n as they cult.than )d advice, no doubt ty that is certainly not fair, not fair to the witnesses in the first phvce, and not fair to those concerned in such evidence ; but we tind ourselves powerless against the press- I may add that since the cominenceinent of our labours we have had scarcely time to read the papers. Mr, BHque : — That is the reason that I draw.the attention of the Commission to the most salient points. Hon. Mr, Irvine : — May it please Yours Honours : Before the Commission commend s the business of the day, I have a suggestion to make to Your Honours, which I think will be worth considering. I do not desire to interfere in any way with the programme of the procedure which Your Honours have adopted, but I would suggest that time will be saved and the length of the Cimimission shortened, if Mr. Pacaud, my client, could be examined at once. He is prepared to give all the information he possesses, to show all his cheques and receipts since the $100,000, came into his hands, and to explain to this Honourable Commis. sion what Your Honours are trying to get from bank clerks and managers, which is cer- tainly if I may so express it, what I should consider to be groping in the dark, to a certain extent, whereas Mr. Pacaud will not only give all this information to the Commission, but will produce all vouchers which he can tind. If Your Honours think it advisable, he will produce accounts made, containing full statements of his transactions since the first of March to the present time, and these can be handed to the Commission before his examin- ation, if desired, so that Your Honours can see what items are worth inquiring into. Of course I would not advisH him to produce them in the record until his examination takes place. I now make this susrgestion to Your Honours, and will be glad to follow whatever course you may decide upon. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetlt : — We believe your suggestion is a very good one, Mr. Irvine. The reason why we did not examine Mr. Pacaud before is this: first we wanted all the .looumeuts produce I by the bankers upon which the inquiry is to be made and second, we did not exau:.ine Mr. Pacaud before, as some of the witnesses have already made statements, and have statements still to make, in which Mr. Pacaud is interested ; and we wanted to examine them before we examined your client, in order to give Mr. Pacaud the opportunity of explaining these statements or whatever they were. We thought that it would be the fair way to deal with this business. We have here today, as we understand, a witness, Mr. McDonald, who J has arrived here especially to give evidence in this case, and as soon as his examination is over, and the examination of those witnesses who have already been examined and have testified here, is over, we will then begin with Mr. Pacaud at once. Mr.HcUL— If Your Honijurs please, I have reduced to writing, the application with reference to the order on the telegraph companies, and have here the names of the parties to whom the messages refer of which we wish to have a copy. 318 Henry T. Machi Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .- _ This application is granted Order 22nd October 1891 Upon application of J. s. Hall Of- . . '''' Pacific Railway Teleeranh Pn^ ^' '^"'^ ^- ^^^ae Casgrain Op •* • retain in thei/custSy'anST'r'. ^"'^ *h« Great No2^^^^^^ ^'^^' ^he --sages or copies iheLTtSlZsl;-' ""'' ^'''P--- S.^tf SuT^'^"^'' '^ control, sent during the month nf ? . i"^ company have in their 1 telegrams or persons whose names foHow' "' ^P"' ^^^^ ^^^ '^""e of tli^ZsZTZ'^'u'''''''- "^ TheHonour«hI«w 1 ,, . y^^^ between the Mr. Joseph A. Mercier £rnest Pacaud. "^ JohnJ.Macdonald. ,, Chs. N. Armstrong. Angus M. Thorn. The Honour«bIeHonore Mercier. Joseph Sheyn, Jos. E. Robidoux, David A. Ross, George Duhamel, ' TT ♦•, ^ . *^*""''^^ I^angelier. Until further orde„ from the Commission. HENRY T. MACHIN, assistant provincial tre„ ^y^on.Mr.J..,^,^,,^^^J '^"''^^^^-"'----^sevidenceasfollo.. - Order in Counoil malTnThe , T^"'^ *'^* ^ -« ^'^^ed to brin. I H k the Great Northern RailwavS^r"^^"''" '"^"^^^ting a land subsid !" ^^"''^^^"gh' Q- ItwihbefyledaleThl^rrfiet "^^^'"'-^^ ^'^^^^ '^'^^ ■"' t S:':^::;r r ^ — «. the .nd subsidy granted. .o^^:j--- ofanorderincounci, which converts a land subsidy tnto a Q. Now the next one ? ^ * A. I produce next a conv of o »-^ . to the Ottawa and Gatineau VaTley r'w p ^''^'^' '" ««»"«i'. authorizing .. 'ng the payment of a subsidy give„ fo .^ ^^"'"P""^- ^^ i« an Order in (^5 ? P''^'"^"' Q- You produce it simply IJ^^:; ^^^ ^^ «atineau V:^e^^^^^ Q- It will be fyled a. Exhibit No 57 ? ""'"^ •^o0.9o6,2.5, mentioned at page 32 of .,. .^t^^wnwBWwses****^^ „ Henry T. Machin 819 October 1891 rdered that the )h Company, do all telegrams or 5n, custody, or r, between the !ier the Budget speech, delivered on the fifth of December eip'iteen hundred and ninety (1890)_ fyled :is Exhibit No. 68. Q. Does this amount include the land subsidy granted to the Baie desChaleurs Railway Company ? A. No. Q. I suppose it includes the fifty thousand dollars granted for the "Cascapedia Bridge" ? A. It dues not. By Mr. BHque : — '^. It was seventeen days before the railway resolutions were introduced into the house ? A. Yes sir, this $756,956,25 does not include the subsidy of 800,000.00 acres of land, nor the amount of fifty thousand dollars granted to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, at the last session of the Legislature. The Budget speech was delivered on the fifth of December eighteen hundred and ninety, and the resolutions I think were on the twenty-seventh, if I recollect rightly. I produce the warrants in payment of the letters of credit as requested by Mr. Hall. Q. We desire also to see them ?• A. There are four altogether and they are fyled as Exhibits "59," "60" "61" and -'62" No. 59 is the warrant for the $100,000. By Mr. Hall: Q. Tliat is signed at the bottom by Mr. Webb. A. By Mr. Webb : " Received the above mentioned sum of $100,000. " For the Union Bank of Canada. " E. E. WEBB, " Cashier." That is No. 59. Exhibit No. 60 is the warrant for the interest ? A. For the interest on the $100,000. Q. Signed also by Mr. Webb ? A. Signed also by Mr. Webb. No. 61 is the warrant for the $75,000. letter of credit which is acquitted by Mr. Lafrance, cashier of the Banque Nationale. No. 62 is the warrant for $400.68. interest on the $75,000. and acquitted by Mr. Lafrance, casliier of the Banque Nationale. Now I produce the warrant for the payment of $1,500., $25,000 and $15,000., fyled as Exhibits " 63 ", " 64 " and " 65 ". 63 is a warrant for $1,500. 64 is a warrant for $25,000 and 65 is|a warrant for $15,000. Warrant No. 63 is acquitted by S. Lesage, assistant commissioner of Public Works. No. 04 is a warrant for $25,000. and is acquitted by J. C. Langelier, commissioner to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company. No. 05 for $15,000. is acquitted by S. Lesage, assistant commissioner of Public Works. I produce now the letters from the Department of Public Works, requesting the warrant to be issued for $25,000 and $15,000. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : Q. Are these the originals or copies. ^51 . 320 Pierre A. Labadie A. These are the orieinaJs. Q- Describe each one. t-aste?::>e?b::1'';2:^^ «^d-ssod to .,«e,f HTM,- «eeond is a letter irL th^Tirtrt'7' ^^"^^y^- ^ fy^lS -v;^^*^-' ^-'^'^^^ addressed to H T m„ u • j^ P^"^"*^ of Pubh'c Wnrt„ i ? . *Mlbit JTo. 66 Ti, of railwa^/an^Vjie^r,^-^^^^^^ ^--tT^dtigl^t^^^^^ ^ '''' ^''''■' ^^l correspondence with Mr m ™ l^^' ®'^' J^^ «'»«»"' being for f 15 J "T"' '^^■' ''"^'^^•'o «ent. The statement o the L'r7°?'' P*'"*'^« "-^^Pecting twf^ Jr"«*fin.ianv yet, but on looki,,^ nvl? ♦, ^o^sohdated railway fund tT„ ^ ^ ™''"®'' '" the den.r," A-Ihave Iwaa 1 k '"^'* '" ^consequence of the I^..- , . * ^ "^^^^ t° know is this • Tn th examining them. legislature, was there any Drovi2 " }^^ estimates of last year in fh , . acres of land ? ""^ P^°""»"" °>ade for the payment of th « '''''"° ^^'^^e . A. The provision for the n» conversion of 800,000 A. No, Sir. And further the deponent saith not. ^V Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti:^ Q. Mr. Labadie. you are accountant of the BKn. ^ oi tne Banque du Peuple at Oi,nK "upie at Quebec, are you not? .. ;^W^SIMB1^1»«WW!Hl»e:p»W-U«iW64>^'SF^ Pierre A. Labadie 321 ij"; Esq., assistant ibitlTo.ee. The day of July, 1891, f»,Esq.,,Urector 1 cannot find anv ter in the dep«r,'. quite compietej "ig to the credit, ' fund when it is' wequenceofthe urer, but I have '"'eofiti„ti,e al Treasurer at prislature ? session of the ion of 800,000 elves. There eluded ill the 'O the House estimates are J authorizing iites.) " Peuple. you not? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. It was you who returned the cheques to Mr. Pacaud ? A. The cheques were returned to Mr. Edge, an employee of Mr. Pacaud. Q. Did you return these cheques yourself? A. I returned the cheques myself. Q. You took a receipt at the time ? A. I have the original here. Q. That receipt is short, please dictate it to the stenographer ? Quebec, 6th August 1891. Me. p. B. DuMoiiLiN, Manager. ^' I hereby acknowledge, that the balance, this day, to my credit in theBanquedu Peuple, Quebec, is twelve hundred and thirty seven dollars and thirteen cents ($1,237.13), and that the cheques have been returned to me up to this date the sixth of August instant. ERNEST PACAUD. Q. Can you give us a copy of that document ? A. Yes, Your Honour, I produce a copy as ExMbit No. 68. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Did you see the cheques in question ? A. Yes Sir. Q. Did you notice who were endorsers on some of them ? A. No, we are not in the habit of looking at the endorsements when we return cheques. Q. Did you see any name on those cheques other than the name of Mr. Pacaud ? A. Among those cheques there were some promissory notes which had been charged to Mr. Pacaud's account. Notes made by Mr. Pacaud payable at the Banque du Peuple and ordinarily charged, were charged to that account, but I cannot say if there were any. Q. Do you know what notes, was there not a note of Mr. Tarte's for one thousand dollars ($1000) ? A. No, that note was not charged. Q. It was not charged to that account ? A. No. Q. Was there a note for two thousand dollars of Ernest Pacaud's endorsed by Mr. Mercier ? A. I do not remember that either. Q. There was a note for one hundred and fifty dollare of Mr. Dechene? A,. No, I think thtwe notes were paid by cheques. Q. Then of what notes do you speak when you say that there were notes charged ? A. Of notes made by Mr. Pacaud to the order of other persons ; these notes when made payable at the Banque du Peuple are charged to Mr. Pacaud's account ? 2t Q. To whose order » find .he detail, which j„„ „,t „f """""'"osether, bu, we can refer to .„„,he, t,,,t.„, A:s:':i?;etr:ir''""°'''^-'"''-- And further the deponent saith not. PIERRE G. LAFRAJfrv r» v, x. . ination continued af fot^!^^' ^-^--^theBanque^ationale, was recalled, and his e.xan. £y Hon. Mr. Justice Jette :— Q. We stopped yesterday, I think Afr T t Pacaud for a bill of exchan^J ^n Paris i^'^''*"°^.' ^* '^« '•^q^est made to yo- bv Af renting twentyfive thousand five hund ed f^In" ''' ^^ousand dollars (i.OOO) r'n^J' the fi„t sum of five thousand dollars fS^t ^ u ' ^^P'^^- f'""'" these two suC i,T'' cheque for five thousand ($5,000 for^' bill / T' '"^ ^'^ ^ P^^mi'^'^orynZ' ^'J' balance of this dispnimf \*- • °i'i '^i exchange on Paris ,.«« ""'^. ana this &=;= set's. .=:- SHSL- Q. V„„ do „„. w how the other che,u„ wer' .pp,i«, , ..ce5.i?t, -.r "" ''■■ *«« °' '»» -^-1 and ,ift, doliar. „„, ,,.,„ ■ A. I. w.. a d«f. drawn h, „, s^ «■ ypon Mr. Pacaud and accepted b, him ' A. Accepted bv him „„J. H^-,i.dr.bee„d.co„„t..t,„„rba.,orb.di.b..,eht.. „„„^^^^ Q"L:';:re:;:r*::r^""-"'--»- Can you -mi»meimi»*mmrtfaii!mvr collection. Q. There was no other name on this draft ? A. I do not remember, I do not think there was any other. Q. I think you stated that you no longer have the cheques mentioned in the account you produced ? A. The cheques have been returned to Mr. Pacaud. that is to his employee. Q. Now, the Caisse d'Economie makes its deposits in the Banque Nationale I under- stand? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did it deposit, on the sixteenth of May, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891), a sum of nine thousand three hundred dollars (*9,300), and can you stute if out of such sum of nine thousand three hundred dollars ($9,300) there was a sum of seven thousand dollars ($7,000) represented by a cheque upon the Banque du Peuple ? A. I think it was on the sixteenth of May. The document must have been produced before the Senate ; if it were shown to me I could identify it. (Tlie exhibit is shown to the witness.) I WHS able to trace only one cheque for seven thousand dollars ($7,000) ; it was deposited on the sixteenth of May by the Caisse d'Economie in the Banque Nationa'e, it was a cheque on the F aqufc du Peuple ; we cannot trace the name. Q. You say that, on that day, you received in deposit a cheque upon the Banque du Peuple which came through the Caisse d'Economie ? A. Of seven thousand dollars ($7,000) ; that cheque must have been deposited in the Banque du Peuple the next day. Q. Apart from the note for five thousand dollfirs ($5,000) which Mr. Pacaud paid on the fifteenth of May, as you have stated a moment ago, did not M. Pacaud also, about the sanie time, have another note at your bank for five thousand dollars, with the same endorsers, which had become due on the first of May and had been protested? A. On the sixth of May a note for five thousand dollars ($5,000), signed by Mr. Pacaud, was paid ; that bill was due on the first of May. Q. Had it not been protested ? A. It had been protested on the first of May. Q. Do you remember the niimes of the persons signing and those endorsing it? A. The note was signed by Mr. Pacaud and endorsed by the Honourable H. Mercier the Honourable F. Langelier and the Honourable C. A. P. Pellctier. Q. Do you remember how that note was paid, if it was by cheques or in bank notes ? A. To the best of my knowledge, this note waa paid by Banque du Peuple notes. Q. On the sixth of May ? A. On the sixth of May. . Q. Do you remember who paid it ? A. It was Mr. Pacaud. The document, which is now produced as Exhibit No. 70, is a copy of the protest in ■question. Q. Were you asked to produce other exhibits ? Have you anything else to produce ? A. I do not remember having any other documents to produce. 324 P- G. Lafrance. ul' hundred ZurdtS^I^S^X)^^ B-Que Nationale to discount that letter fo. .„e A. HewereHskedtodoao. Q. Can you state about what time wh^t H.f„ 9 A. Son,e days after the twenty-X'hrh of 1 r . A f^h^Tr ^"^'^^ wholtplS to ylr ' ^ ^ '^ -* --ne-be. the date exactlv. H- N.,w, on the twenty-eighth of 4nHl ™u seventy-five thousand dJl^rsfiT^mn^ " ^^^ discounted that letter of or.^if >■ """rVrtr^^^r^^'^^'^'-^ th. you rlrtStVC A. Yes, between five and six o'clock. " theytathThtre some?.: Sr.drf "^"^ ^'^ "^^' ^^ *»^- -ached the bank, or di.l Q. In what order did they come ' ni 1 th^ n A. They came together. ' "' '" ''""' *°^«*h«^ '^ Q. It was Mr. J. C. Langelier ? A. Mr J C. Langeli.r. Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Thorn Q.^"^Uwa« then that the cheques were preparedT" A. The, were prepared in the hank itself, and accepted that day. By Mr. Caagrain :~ ^ Q. Please refer to Exhib't UTo Afl 1 ^.aisse d Economic, another cheque lor ohp f h ■ T ' ^"* deposited with you bv f i,o came from the Caissed-Economllo;ouXfkr"' '"""'^ ^*^'^^> »" your o^' lank A. Ihe bordereau mentions a phor..,o <•„ on the B.„,„, «.„„„.„ ,„, „„, ZZll,Zi:'^r' '°""" "-'™' '"" ■ "^•'- Q. Please look at Exhibit Vn nn ■ ^''^-wu;. "oount „(ih the B.„,„c Na.ion.l Do ^LllW n'"" " if "" "'»'""»' <-' Mr. P«c.„d.. ^counted the letter ^l' etter of credit for ( )ne 'W (1100,000). It the letter „f credit nt that letter for one the date exactly. 3 ask us to discount f answer the appH- iciition before our >tter of credit fur returned to the I the bank, or did that the clieijue with you by the 'our own bank A. According to the appinnf u " — =^= r- ^ vi. xnat IS, the letter of credit fir ,-„«,,._.,,,,_;-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ «. TlKBe were all ih, , • «„,ec„red .. J. „, ::r '" °"'^ "™ -« M'- p-.. ..« . ,„„, ,.„,, ,,„„„„. ^^^ A. He mo.^ i,„. ' ^°°""* Cjovernment ^on. Mr. Irvine :~ r:i:rr^"^^^^----«--eend.saiiowe. . the ^Z S^iSa^f K I ^tSj';;? ^-'-" - that already put m H" time before the date -v th 1- u "'^' ^'- ^^caud, under o^b!l • ^ °^J^^* '" Pitting loMers of credi' eo thl^ ''^ '"'^ '^''^ ""'^' ^'""cer, p 1 Tent n .. O'/cumstances, for a long 'liBtributed the pfoe ^rj;--je^ or attempted to ^ them'^.t^f «/ '^'^ ^overnmenf complete agency betwln L T '' ""^ ''''^''' ^^«'^J I no, f/''7"'f ; '^"'J afterwards far. according tT^^t^eT Tf '"'' '"« '"«"^f'er of tl^e ' ^ \ ''^'^ ^^'^^^i^^ed a credit was given n^d paTd Ind'tb"'^"'' '""^ ''•""^ "^« beg^nfne 6 m" I?'"'"" "^^ '"^^« «° is that there was sim JJ a sv^ ' '"""^'^' ^i^'Hbuted. We"l wLf T ""'*' ^'^^ '«"«'' «f "«nnl of mode of ^j" ^f "'; T^ ''^^^ '" '^is Baie dlchrieu J ""Z ^"^ ^° ^«^'^b''"«h ') and a cheque I ^'^'^- '^^''- Justice Jdtf: .-- •f Mr. Pacaud's ty, Mr. Pacaud 00)? ■^« i"a..iry Which w, h'.:: °' iv;i'»'™"»"- »"H wo„h' «L':,r,f;r," :jf ™ 7.;'* 326 P- O. Lafrance By Mr. Cangrain :— Q- »»w. "h™ Mr pSTJir*","''''''" '»'«.<»«)• '»■«")'■'»"' tl,„„,,„„„ Q- Did Mr Charl.! r ' "'*' '° "'J' knowledge Q-^V hen w«s that note discounted ' A. On the fifteenth of AnHi o . Q- Now, will you Jl : ""*' ''^ '^'''y » *■<■*'„■■ A. It 18 the seventh oi Aiiensf ti.,- ■ ... ' ™'" ■'"'""'="'■«>'«.. en. .o„e.h..,.,. The CMhIe,. cf the «,„,„, N.„.„„„^ '■ «"'"«". 7'1> A,„« j8,j. Please return all mv «!,„ There i,.,„eiptfa.h„e„„i^„, . "*"" '"''^■^^ACAUD. " "'"•''" '-- '^' ■-■•-. -..^o-e ..»„„..„ e.„r" "" "'"" "" A ^"r' ' u' ""^'"•*' • ^^'^"""^^ AUGUSTE EDGE 18 the onlj regular account he opened. ■«y ■«»•. Caagrain :— K.,i* .1°," "•" "■•• •■■« - the „„„ rc„.„.r .cco„„. Mr T^,, , , • , A. The «c„„nt „,. „hich he dr» , ■ . '" "' *'°"" Q- wh.. do ,„„ „„„ ., :':^ifz:r- "■" ™ "^ °°'^ « "» -^- A. Xo, when Mr. PacanH ,.,0^ another account ? And further the deponent „ith„„,. •he H* ?^."Srd:;tS:X?"- ^-- -^ ". ^e-n, an,, sworn on ^V ^on. Mr. Justice Davidson .- Q- What is your occupation ? r-^aTO^w«teBv*aM»^ta'iaB^W»flawB«^ ^ Harold Shaw 829 once and the receipts for cheques withdrawn A. Ledger keeper. Q. In what bank ? A. Ill the Union Bank. Q. Have you produced the book in which customers sig by t'lijin ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Turn to a receipt said to have been signed by Mr. Pacaud in August 1891. (Witness refers to book.) A. It is nut August : it is September 1891. Q. There is a\*o one in August ? . . A. Well, he signed in August, but it is up to the end of July 1891. The receipt is cigned by Ernest Pacaud. Q. There is no date on the receipt ? Reml it. A. " We hereby confirm the statement of our account with Union Bank of Canada to the laJt day o) July, 1891, as contained in their pass-book, and acknowledge receipt of cheques and vouchers the same date: 98 cheques, February 1891 to July 1891 ; 26 Savings Department cheques, February to June 1891. (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD. Q. This is the receipt of which the receipt appearing as Exhibit No. 39. is a copy, is it not. E.xhibit is handed to wi*.ne8s. A. Yes, Your Honour. , i • • Q. By whom was this receipt taken and by whom were the cheques mentioned m it delivered to Mr, Pacaud? A. I think by the accountant. Q. Not by you ? A. No, Sir. <.J. Who is the accountant. A. Mr. Smith. Q- Is he here. B. Yes, Sir. Q. It is in his hand-writing ? A. Yes, that receipt. Q. Turn again to a receipt taken by your bank on or about the tenth October, 1891. In whose hand-writing is this receipt ? A. Mr. Pacaud's. He signed it. Q. But the receipt itself ? A. It is a printed form. Q. Was it tilled up ? A. It is filled up by one of the juniors. Q. By whom was this receipt taken, and by whom were the cheques delivered? A. By one of the other juniors. Q. Not by you ? A. No, Sir. , Q. Then you did not see Mr. P.tcaud at all in connection with the dehvery of the cheques, do I understand ? ^>. F. W. Smith -Au^stin Gaboury 330 Hon. Mr. Irvine :^ _ % Jfon. Mr. Ju,tu:e Davidson - ^"^"^^ '^"^ say : Q- Who i« his secrecy ^'" '° ''^- ^'^^«"^ P-onally ; I ha.u.ed them to h" ^- Mr. A. Edge. ° ^"* secreti.-y. Q- By whom were they requested? A. Mr. Piicaud. Q- Persunally? ' A. Yes. Q- Wei he give any reason? A. No, Sir. A. Afterwards, yes. ^'■- ^''^'^ '"°k Q- What have von »« - • , ;*■!«'" no, in ,„.„«„„„,,. '><" "'h Ocobe, i-d farther ,l.p<,„em,ai,h „„..•• Q- For some years ? A. For the past two yeaw. H' You were aware nf tJ,« j- -venty-five thousand dolC^^sStu/p^"^'^^"^ letter of credit f ^- Yes, Sir. l*'o,WO) by the Banque xVationale in tL l'/'"" * «'"» of , Q- Wi„ you st.e the oircumsta by your bank ? o-umatanoes under which that letter of credit w .• credit was discounted Augiislin Gabiiurp 881 ery one >,f tin,. Hti i" the Union Ijank ' and say .- the receipt given 'O his secretfi. ■r. Edge took 'nth October red r,i years ■ a sum of ^Pi'ilJast? iscounted A. Mr. Webb of the Union Bank came to the Banque Nationale on the twenty-eighth of April and asked wliuther thehank would discount a letter for seventy-five thousand dollars ; that he had an offer to discount one hundred and seventy-tive thousand dollars and that if the Banque Nationalo wished to discount seventy-live thousand dollars (175.1X10) his hank would discount the other note for one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000). Q. Was Mr. Webb the first to speak to you of that discount ? A. Mr. Webb was the first to speak to the cashier of the bank. I should say that before going into my office he had gone to see the cashier Mr. Lafrance ; they both came into my office. Q. Was that the first time you had heard that discount spoken of when Mr. Webb spoke to you ? A. That was the first time. Q. Was Mr. Webb authorized to make that request or did he do so merely to prepare the matter ? A. From the way he spoke to me, he seemed to be authorized ; he told me that his bank had the offer of the whole discount but that he had not enough money to be able to discount the whole. Q. He then asked you to take a portion ? A. Yes. Q. What answer did you mnkf A. I loldhim that the B . iue Nauonale could do it, that we had the funds, and that we would enquire into the legality of the matter ; we wished to see the documents to submit them to our solicitors ; and that is what was done the same day. Q. Was it you. Sir, who went to the department to see the documents, or was it the cashier ? A. It was the cashier. I myself aaked Mi'. Lafrance to be kind enough to go up to Mr. Machin's dnpartmint with Mr. Hamel, the bank solicitor, and afterwurds I believe that it was Mr. Lafran(:e who telephoned to me from Mr. Machin's office asking me to go up. I went therf to join them and after consultation with the solicitor of the bank we decided that we would make the discount. Q. Whom did you meet at the department, in Mr. Machm's office, on that occasion ? A. I do not remember. I saw no one but the ca.-pect to that transaction. Q. He did not speak to you a few days later either. A. A few days later he came to the bank, but it was with respect to the discount of the other letter of credit. Q. But respecting this one, respecting the negotiation of this one ? A. No, I do not remember having seen him at all. Q. Well, what occurred respecting the other letter of credit ? A. Some days afterwards, five or six days alter, Mr. Pacaud came to the bank with the Honourable Charles Langelier to ask the discount of the letter for one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000). Q. Which Mr. Webb had at first agreed to make ? A. At first. They told me that the Union Bank could not do it and they wished to know if we could do it. Q. Was that long after the 28th April ? A. Five or six days. Eight days about. Q. What answer did you make to that request ? A. The cashier and I decided to refer the question to the board of directors. When they came, it wba in the afternoon about half past three or four o'clock ; there was a meeting the next day and the matter was in fact submitted the next morning to the board meeting and the discount was not made. Q. Had you any knowledge- of the use made of that sum of seventy-five thousand dollars ($75,000) how it was paid and to w; om it was paid? A. I eaw the cheques, which I myself deposited before the Senate. Q. You know that the largest amount was drawn in three cheques, rather largo ones, do you not ? A. Yes. I have with me a memorandum of the amounts. The first cheque is for thirty-one thousand t^even hundred and fifty dollars ($31,750), the second for twenty-four thousand dollars ($24,000), the third for sixteen thousand dollars, ($16,000) the fourth for one hundred and eleven dollars and sixty four cents ($111.64) and the filth for two thousand two hundred and fifty dollars ($2,250) which amounts to the proeeeds of the discount of seventy five thousand di illars ($75,000). Q. When Mr. Pacaud and Mr. Charles Langelier went to ask you to discount that letter of credit for one hundrevl thousand dollars ($100,000) had they any document with them ? A. I do not remember their having any. Q. You do not remember whether they had the letter of credit for one hundred thous- and dollais ($100,000)? A. I do not remember ; It is possible that they Imd it, as there was a question of changing it, in case the Banque Nationale would discount it , to change the letter to make it 384 ■Augustin Gaboury M. V„He„., p„.r„'' 'SeT"°"' -"' ^•-. ' ^^-ieve, .,„ „,„„„., ,„, «■ Wm that discount mad, onli,Blv„ .. , „ A. No, „,„o „« „„o M A IT'l 7 "'■ ^'""«'» 'e.pon.ibility, „„„ ^j, „, the.,„„„fi„o„, ,^ "''•JC.langelia.., cheque, i„ hie ou.li. '^^ "I"" •"> '"Ivrac, ? ■ tlie Union B.nli th„V ^ ?! '*" "•">" »l>e Union BmL °'j '",''"'' " "ommieiionet f,„ hunted .hoi 'ir-'f P»y '"e .mount ^b.^e' h^d t !„ " '""i, "■« ««'•»' ^ Q. w«.hiedi.i::, :™";'"'«'«'»o>»edi'*„\tT.„r '"^ •""■ °'°"« """rvr """' ■'°""' '*'*■*»>• "•' """^ '» ^''-" «» ^.«» ro, one .p.,.eh.d„othin.odo..hit,,.e..o„,.heeo._^^^^^ n::,r'--"--...eh..o.„hieh,o„„o.e..iden.^ n>«de, of the cheque ' "*'°" '"™ <">y knowledge "f, he ?' °"''" '""«»«»' Q- Do your books show that 1 J«*f "l W ." i " w»»-. Augustin Gaboury 885 A. Yes. Q. Now, you state that the discount of the letter of credit for $100,000 was submitted to your board ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Have you a copy of the resolution or the entry made in the minutes of the board respecting that transaction ? A, I did not bring it with me. Mr. Casgrain : — I would ask that an order be given to Mr. Gaboury to send a copy of all the entries con- cerning that transaction. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — Be g" 1»n.» (W.000) Q. It was Mr. Pacaud who told you that ' n Tc HT T^ 7. ^ ^' ^*"°"^"**'^»*'^e had five thousand dollars ($5 000) ..her paper whatever connected wi.', the Mi^ZciZ^ZHllyr' "' ""'"' " "'• A. No, Sir. Q. There was none ? • A. No. that?o Jr '" "''' *'' '^"°""* ^' * '^"^^ ''^ -^'^^^ - -y «ther paper connected with A. No, except that note fo) twenty thousand dollars ($20,000.00 ) Q. Were the notes which you mentioned renewals or original notes' ?' I'T't"" ""''"^ '° ^^'' *^' ^^''' °' *^°^^ "°^^'«' ^"' y°" give the dates ? February, and was renewed on that daj by a note fo^ thf «„,. J"' ^ '^' '^''^ ''' credit of the same person ; that renewil bLa^e du^on the ixth'^o? Z: T"' *" *'' rently paid on the .ighth by Mr. Pacaud's cheoue Now Mr n. \/ ^ ^' ^"-^ ""^ ^P^^" twentyeighth of March ; M^r. Tarte's note^ " 'dTed ZZiZZTulT '' '''''' ''' A. No. I do not remember of his having bought any. Q. Between the twenty-eighth of April and the eleventh of July ? A. I do not remember, I would have to refer to my books to see. Q. I wish you to refer to them and give us the details of those drafts ? i^l^p»^|pt» John J Macdonald 339 By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— the4' '° °°' ""'"'"' '" ■■ '' '""' '" ""''' '^^" ^^- ''^«^"^' i* -^ he who benefitted Q. You credited him with the proceeds ' And further the deponent saith not. SI 1i ^2/ Jfon. Mr. Justice Davidson :~ Q. How long have you been a railway contractor, Mr. Alacdonald ? A. A great, many years. I have been railroading over thirty vears-ovpr fh.Vf, connected wuh railways, r.ot all the time as contractor ye^^-over thirty years if I would like to go i„ .0 fi„i.h tk, B«ie d« Ch.,euiS,y ■ ^'""""^ "''''' "' Q. Who is Mr. Heaton Armstrong? A. He is the banker who handled the bonds of thp ToTy,i=««„»t„ r> m • , sold them. He asked me if I would like to gofnto the BarZrh ^ H '" ^"'^°"- work which was to be done, that he had a ^fopoe^n from Mr Merdr a" Z l°/d ^'^ Sigtd il' ""^' ' '-'"' ^^" ^'^^ ^-^"«^^^- -«' -^ ^h- 'l -^ "P tht^lter an'd in! Q. What was the proposition which you so acted upon? •1 ^' '^^"J'^^f ^^ *^" thousand dollars a mile for forty miles, from the 60th to the lonth imle ; and Mr. Armstrong was to take the bonds of the road. Q. To what extent and on what terms ? A. He was to take the bonds on the 100 miles at seventy-five cents on the dollar Q. State the whole of the details. A, He was to take the bonds at 75 cents • *''(mnn a r«ii« „,„ .u • was to be guaranteed for ten year.. ' ' ^''' ^"^ '^' '«""•' ^"'^ ^^e interest Q. By whom ? 340 John J. Macdonald il'l f if ( A. By the Quebec Government. The bonds were to bear live per cent interest \u Heaton Armstrong .„s to advance the money to pay the deposit tfthe Quebcro'v^^^^^^ Q. What deposit ? A. Of five per cent interest for ten years. Q. What sum would that represent ? A. About «S40,00tl. We ligured it roughly, Q. Why should he make this deposit' markt.'''"'''''''^"'''"''"''''''^'"'''**^'^ "'''' *° ^»P°«« "^ '^^^ - the English Q. Who was to draw the interest on this deposit ? A. The bondholders, after the bonds were disposed of A No 'slr'-'irf y ' T'"' ^°"J' °">' ""' ^" °^^ «^ '^'«f'»"'t "P°» the bond. ? A. No, Sir ; the interest was to be paid for ten years. Q. By the Quebec Government ? Q. And at the completion, when these bonds had been duly paid? A. I don't know what date they were to run for. That was not arranged Q. It was smiply a deposit in trust with the Goverm ,ent ? " A. It was to pity the interest. Hon, Mr. Irvine : — The money would be exhausted by the payment of the interpst Th» n„nK„ n nient was to get *800,tK)0^which was .he calLLed amo.in: SIk Th^ way'n S" It was done wa. that the Government were to assume the payment as princ^prdebtors for the interest, and they were to have this sum of mon A I think It 18 thirty-three cents. Forty-two for interest and thirty-three would mak. seventy-hve that they were sold for. ' wouia make Q. Was any additional sum added to thU proposition subsequently ? p«i>)9iMii^iwpmwnamwjinH^ John J. Macdonald 341 le interest on A. Sometime after there wa.s a bridge to be built for which I understood there was to be fifty thousand dollars. Q. Over the Cascapediac ? A. Yes. It wtiH an outside transaction from the railway. Q. The total amount of the bonds would he how much? A. Two million dollars ($2,(XIO,000)— $20,000 a mile for 100 miles. Q. Could yon give in round figures what the outlay to the Quebec Goverment would be under this contract ? A. $400,000, and the $50,000 that were given for the bridge. Q. S4')0,000? A. Yes, Sir. Of course there was the old subsidy on the sixty miles. Q. That would be $280,000 of unearned or unpaid subsidy ? A. That was on the forty miles, and there was still a subsidy to be paid on the si.xty miles. On the forty miles to be built there was still $280,000 : that was $7,000 a mile ; and I wanted to have that increased to $10,000 a mile, which made $400,000. Q. But generally what you were to receive was $450,000, representing the balance of unearned subsidy and the conversion of the 800,000 acres of land into money ? A. That was not spoken of at all. We had not gone that far in our negotiations when Mr. Armstrong was here. Q. You were to receive $10,0(X) a mile for forty miles and $;50,000 cash for the Cascape- diac Bridge. A. Yes, and whatever subsidy would be due by the Local Government on the work to be done to finish it. I think it was somewhere about $28,000 or $31,000—1 am not sure exactly if it was not paid out already by the Quebec Government for labor. I am not sure though about that. At 1 o'clock the Commission adjourned till 2 P. M. 2 o'clock P. M., the 22nd day of October, 1891. JOHN J. MaeDONALD, of Rivi6re-du-Loup, contractor, continued his deposition as follows : By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. Revertingtoyourproposeddeposit of $840,000, I desire to be more clearly under- stood or to mote clearly understand you. Was not this proposed deposit in the nature of a trust fund to the Government, to be available for the carrying out of certain obligations? A. I don't know exactly what the position of the Government was to be with regard to it, but I know it was to pay interest on the bonds every six months. Q. Was the Government primarily liable for the payment ? A. The Government became responsible. They became responsible for the interest. Q. That represented the total interest for ten years on the bonds ? A. Y'es. Sir. Q. I asked you this morning who it was who was drawing; the interest on the amount ? A. The parties holding the bonds. 842 John J. Macdonald Q. The parties holding the bonds ? ...owe-., "'u.r„i';^rroiTrLi';':;r ■:'■ *'-""'- ™-'- ^■■- .heS;"ri;;ir.''''°°°'""''"''=''''''""»''Sl«"»««lera.i,,,,,„ .k, order in Co„„d. „r A. No, Sir. co.pl;';''^' '^''"^^-^^ *^« -^-t entered into hetween the Government and the ^^^^'^^:^^^Z1^^^^^^ into hetween the eo.p.n. Thorn, in Montreal, some time in May^^^"''^'"'^"'^ '" ^^•^""'''' '" 'h« h'^nds ot Mr totaltonir^lultr/orr^rtlr^n.*'^ ^"^'^"^^"^' ^^>-' -- ^^^wing the contract contained in this 0rd:;rnc2d;r' ''' '^''^ --''«— oney results-J' the A. I do not know whether I could do that. Q- Yon have in effect done it already. A. I made an estimate of it myself when I made the offer. Q- You did It before ? A. Yes, Sir. tothteTenns'r^"'"^"''^''"^^'^'^^ ^^'--" ^'ou and the Government with reference A. No, Sir. to agt/wTth"em ^ ^^"" °' ^'^ ^°^^^"'"-' «^--^ to themin a genera, way orrefusing withlhJ'^^^'cVmptr' '''' ''""' '° ''' " *^« ^^"^'■«««- P--Jed. I was able to settle A. Yes, S."'"'""" '''' '^'"'' '^ ^ ^"^^™' ^'^^ '« *^« *--« ? Q- How or through what communication did you arrive at ih.i A. I had an interview with Mr. Mercier and Mr pT f ^''""'"' ' the time that Mr. Heaton Armstrong trieavin; J;;? T°." «:'' '"^''^"' '" ^"^^^ '^"^k at «ee him off, and I wa« anxious to ZlloZZ ulJt'''^ ^' ''""' ^°^" ^'^^ him to or Mr.Cameronsuggestedthatlshourirhfm;- tTil hTj;^^^^^^^^^^ ^"^ ^^'^^ ' Mr.L!t;:ri:-:ci^^^ Ur in":::;:; with «280,000. I said we could not go into t rthn . ' ^'' ""'"' ''"'' '^^^^ ^°"'J ^e enough to do the work, and during ttssS^fntL^^^^^^ *"^ "^« "°* --«>^ bill prepared for the House, and I didnrundeid I ^ ^ ^ '".T ^ ""'^'''^ '^''^ ^'^' ^ w^th ,t, because it did not seem to m/tLt the bnfwl >d ^' '"'^ I ^'^"'' ''""''^y ^'^'^^'^^^ discussed it with Mr. Pacaud, and I met Mr L;! T n*^""^ "' ^''^'^^ P^"" "^"e, and I .ve ..000 per mile, and X said it wasdlfftnrCrt'i'^;::^^^-^^^^^^^^^ John J. Macdonald 848 Mr. Armstrong was there, and then this bill was changed, and I took that bill to Mr. Irvine, and asked him if under that clause they could give me $10,000 per mile for the forty miles. Q. What bill was it ? A. The act which is now passed, — the subsidy bill, as they call it. Q. Did yon secure a copy at all of it? A. I got one ot them, — yes. Sir. Q. Where is it ? A. I don't know where it is. It was a printed bill. I took one of them to Mr. Irvine, and got his views upon the matter. Q. I understand you to say then that the bill, as drawn, seemed to meet your original intention of securing $10,000 per mile ? A. Yea, Sir. Q. How or through whom was the interview in New York arranged ? A. Mr. Cameron and myself called upon Mr. Mercier. Q. What led you and Mr. CannTOn to go to New York A. We went down there with Mr. Heaton Armstrong, to see him off. Q. Who arranged that interview? A. We called around at the hotel and I think sent our cards up. Q. But what led you to go to New York ? A. We did not go there only to see Mr. Mercier, but we had to see Mr. Joseph Hickson and Sir Henry Tyler in reference to dome other business. Q. Yuu mentioned the name of Mr. Pacaud ? ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. When did he first come to be interested in your negotiations ? A. That was some time after I returned, — returned from the road. I am not sure whether I spoke to Mr. Pacaud before I went on the road to examine the work. About the end of October I went down to examine the work, and made an eitimate of what I thought the work would cost. Q. Did you approach Mr. Pucaud with reference to the subject or did he approach you ? A. I probably went to see him. because he was acting as my agent in Quebec for any business I had with the Government. Q. What took place ? A. I wrote a letter to the Government after my return offering the contlitions under which I would do the work, and Mr. Pacaud wanted me to know that we would not get any of the money until the whole work was finished, and then we would get the whole $400,000. and I said I would agree to build from the fortieth to the sixtieth mile before the Government should pay us anything, when they should pay us a part, and the balance sliDuld be paid as soon as the Government wassatishedthatit was finished to its satisfaction. I wrote a letter to that effect, I think. Q. To whom did you write that letter ? A. I think it was addressed to Mr. Merger, and I think I have r. copy in my satche l. Q. Did you bring a copy with you ? , A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did you receive an answer to that letter ? A. No, Sir, except through Mr. Pacaud, stating that that w.is satiifactory to theQovar.i- 844 John J. Macdonald Q. I understand vou to sav vnn .. ;, i ci.or in «* U;:,l;'"'- '"'""°" «- -^ • -■ - -"-f h. «» w....,;,,, „ „, .„„ Q. Well, what followed in order of time ' and oneXr:;;;zsri td ::;;:^r;TT *^Tw: incidentals duHn, the t^^Z:^; ^rt; f.^^l^Ld " ^""""'^^ ' '"' ^ Q. Was th>8 a private memorandum of which you pelk^ ^■ .A. A private estimate I made myself as to whaf T ,. assigned evei,-thing to me. I did not arnmge t^pa Mr Pn" . ^r' '''' '""P^">- '^ ^»'^v personally wiih Mr Pacaud, but I put the sun^ oVS. i '^' *^'^' '^ ^ ^'^ "«t "nnn^e I told Mr. Pacaud what I hid done ^^'"'^'^ '" "'^' ^«*'™«'«- Sometime aft^r Q. When did you tell him » ' p.eptfrpt^rSo.^^'""' "^'" ' *»"*' ■ "- »-. .0 .„„e,a. z .„„ MM , „,. Q- What for? A. For his services during the work. y. What did you expect him to do ? .hini S. ""' "■" "™^" " «"" ■"" •■> * '" •». «y «rg«ing .uWdie. „dg«,„, Q. Tliat is all you expected ' r QuebtGoveCrwrdrj"' •™'""° ""'" "« ^^ - "-he., .. f„ „ .,, .o iJfe,:." W^eS'^ ^'""* "■" <»*-»' o'^O" """i"''. did ,„„ .,p.o. Mr, P.c.ud A. Well, I don't know of anything pUf. «,.„,„♦• «dies paid^I have known of such thi. .j^l an t' ha^iiV: T' f^'''''' '° ^«* °- -^'- us a good deal. ^ ' "'^ "^ having a friend at court they can help Q. Is that all ? A- No. Sir, nothing of the kind prepared to arrange with the GovS„men,.^?,K,".'°,'"''''"™ ■»« "»■"• -'it I was I would g« «,y money. """""""n' " *» time, to /i„i,h tlie « mil* however betore John J. Macdonald 345 ion I made was ing as my soli- ud at this H«t 'y fir«.t impres- letor, and also V proposition hief engineer lates I put in Pany if they not arrange iietinie alter d him I was 's far aj5 the Mr. Pacaud Q. Can you tix the approximate date at which you mentioned this sum of money to Mr. Pftcaiid ? A. No, I cannot. I was hore in Quebec a week or two at a tim.-. Wliile I was here 1 met Mr. Pa.au.l several times. My recollection is however that I did not see Mr! maud until after I r.^turned from the examination of the road. That would he some time in iNovember. Q. Did Mr. Pacaud ever suggest to you the dr-sirabiJitv of fixing a sum' A. No, Sir. Q. By what process of figuring did you arrivt at thi! amount you made ■' A I presumed it would l.o required befo:- ( ,-. M get through, so I put that in as part ft the cost to see what 1 could do the v )rk for. ^: y^" ^^11^ »'«<«■ i»'y"" can, i„ more dctvll, the -lature of the services which vou expected Mr. Fncaud to be able to render? A. Well. I don't know as I can give anyt.V >-' mort^ .finite. If you cansuggrst anything to answer, I wil be very glad to do it, but at p :• ,,.t I don't remember nnything other tlian what I have told. Q. Were you influenced at all by any supposed relations which he had with the mem- bers of the Government, and if so. state what they were? A. I don't know what his influence was. It may have been political ; I expect it was. It was that which made me make the proposition to him, I suppose ; I arranged with Mr. Pacaud to be paid when the 60 or 80 miles was finished, and I understood it was acceptable to the Government. Q. Were you influenced at all by any supposed relations which he had with the mem- bers of the Government, and if so, state what they were ? A. Of course, I am here in a very awkward position. I have had other relations with Mr. lacaud, and I don't think I have any right to go into them. Q. The question does not refer to your past relations with Mr. Pacaud ? A. I have given the only reasons I can give then. *;, *^" ^T?u'* ^°"'" ^®''^* *^** ^® '^°"''* ^''"''^'' ^"y ^^rv\coB in a purely commercial sense, tnat would be worth this sum of money ? A Of course, he was here on the ground, and anything I wanted done on the work he could do. I came up to see him and get him to assist me in any way I required. Q. Why didn't you consider it sufficient that you should negotiate with the Depart- ment yourself? A. That just relates to what I said a moment ago. Q. In what way could you do better? A. I could talk freer to him than to ., member of the Government. Q. In what way ? A. In anything I wanted to discuss with him about the work. Q. I wish to ask you if his political influence had anything to do with it? A. His political influence had a good deal to do with it. Q. Do I understand that you are not prepared to give a more definite answer to that question? A I cannot, so far as my relations to the Baio de.s Chaleurs Railway Company are con- cerned. I thought he would suit my purposes as my agent in Quebec. I looked upon him as very clever and smart. .L. I i ll ,L,U I .ILm il . ll J,_ILU I U]1IJ, I I»IIII 346 John J. Macdonald Q. What followed ? ^ necessary to have a friend at court. A. There was nothing else. ^^^Q. Bid vou have an, .uhse,uent interview, with the representatives of the old con. offered hi. $.50,000 to tra^J TZ^'Z rrnh' ''"^ '^"'^ ^ '"^^ ^^- ^^'^ whole concern of the company VVe dW nnf 1 "'"7'^'"^ "^^^ ^ ^e to get control of the Cameron to have the agreement made out and T nl . offeT,^nd I wired for Mr. Hector Cameron to see that everything was carried m.t ,n n "™T '^ ^'"^ ^''•- ^'•^'"'^ *« ^««i«t Mr menttogodown to Mr. Irvine's office ThJt ^'°^^' 'h'^P^' ^"^^ I mw'« an annoint ^Uh Charley Arn.strong, h denS that hlr", "^'^ ''" ^^°P«^ •*' ^^e Russell Hou" get an interest with me. \ think hit wl th I T"T'- ""'' "^''' '^^ ^'^^ ^e wanted to Q- Did that break it off? "' '"''"^'"^ ' ^^^ ^'^h Mr. Riop. 1. Annl?g:tL';f re w^.^^^^^^^^^^ ^of M. Ca„.eron to wire Mr. Heaton them more and get hold of the work ? .f"'^ of the bonds, I perhaps might be able to offer Pacaud, wanting to know if I ^aT uil negoUa'nTo "" '^''"•*'^' ^°' ^ '^"^^-^ ^^onr Mr. New York. I answered Mr. Pacaud Ut^ JJ""'''^ '"'° ''■ ^ 'hink it was from 0"t the agreement, if I coul.,tt:;f;rth?c?mT:n^ '"^'^ «'"' P-P-^ t^ can^; Ci. Have you tne le.egmm A. I have not got it now. I wired Mr. Pacaud, in reply Q. You say Mr. Pacaud wired you ? A. I think he wired to Mr. Irvine T fh;,,!, t u my other papers. I think that is abo'^t the whol ?'' '"' f '^' '''''"'^''- ^' '^ ^^^r with any one Who wantse.p,an.io.about1ttr:;V::^^^^^^^^^^^ , ,.,„ , the ^rS^r -•^•- - - ---ipal negotiator .nd when Mr. Ri!,., ried to accept A. So far as the negotiations with Mr. Riop. are concerned. ti. Then you turned your attention to efforts towarrl« A. Mr. Pacaud met me in Mont , 7 "'"""^ "' ''''''''' ^'''^ ^^'^^'^s ? he told rne they had a^^li^r^Ltr^^:. ij T '^ ""^ ^^ '^^^^ ^^ ^"«-i. -d because I d>d not expect an offer ..ouWcori thaT ™*''' '^'""''^^^^ '« ^ear hat, Mr Thom if that was the case. He mdZn^lL T^''''' *"^' ^ ^«»^ "^"er and asked no^ he would withdraw. He was of'red ^tbv tl G "" "'^ "' '^ altogether, and «-ho;jr^:-x-ir;;s:?^ -ome practical men with him. I said^ t^/^ ^/t ':^:^':^:r^i:^j;^^ John J. Macdcmald 347 l^t'ing a strong id at court. ' the old com- ' I understood :io would take. Farlane, a sub- • Kiopel, and I control of the increased the or Mr. Hector 3 to assist Mr. an appoint- issell House, he wanted to op. 1. > Mr. Heaton able to offer m from Mr. it was from ed to carry 13 over with If th^re is 1 to accept th others ? ?land, and lear that, W(\ asked er, and if t he said, I't under- )uld have leople ; I woulil not not go into any ring of any kind, tliat I had no objection to go with Mr. Cooper, and he was to go on with his negotiations, but I did not say anything more about it. I left then for New York. The same evening that I reached New York, I met Mr. Cameron, and I instructed him to see Mr. Thorn, and as soon as the arrangements were carried out, when I returned from England, I would see Mr. Heaton Armstrong there and see if he would take the bonds. Q. Did you see Mr. Mercier on any other occasion than the one you have spoken of? A. No, Sir. I think I saw him three times : once in New York, once with Mr. Cameron in Mr. Mercier's office, and once in the Speaker's room of the Legislatur. . Q. Apart from these interviews; who carried on your negotiations with the Government ? A. Mr. Pacaiid. Q. Did y(.u send him with propositions or messages to the Government ? A. We would discuss matters and he would advise me. I wrote a letter about the $400,000 for instance, and he told me it was acceptable. Q. How did communications come from the Government ? ^ A. That one came through Mr. Pacaud. Q. Were there none others ? A. Nothing that I remember of particularly. Q. Did you have any correspondence with the department at all ? A. No, Sir. I have not got a letter that I am aware of. Q. Did you seek to discover what was the extent of Mr. Armstrong's claim, from the departinont ? A. Yes, Sir. I went up with Mr. Pacaud. and I saw the list in one of the departments for work aue, for labor under Mr, MacFarlane and Mr. Armstrong. Q. Did j'ou take away the statements ? A. I took them away and went over them. Q. Have you any of the figures in your possession now ? A. I returned them. There is one paper, I think, I did not return, but I don't know where it is. Q. Have you any statement of the claims as then tiled ? A. I think I have a statement of MacFarlane's, type-written, which I got from the coiirt in Montreal. Q. I am speaking about Armstrong's ? A. I don't think so. I trieil to get the details of Mr. Armstrong's claim from Mr. Riopel, buthe would not give it to me. He sail they would rather settle that them- selves, and he would not give me the details between himself and Mr. Armstrong, but he said he had a written offer that Armstrong would take $ jO.OOO. Q. What was the amount of Mr. Armstrong's claim ? A. I did not see any claim of Mr. Armstrong's. There was a claim for labor that I saw. I think we figured it up at $42,000. Q. For laborers' claims ? A. Yes, Sir. It was put in the department. That's all I saw. Q. In any interviews you had with members of the Government, did the name of Mr. Pacaud come up ? I 348 John J. Macdmald ■ ' ';' "° :"^^'-^'^"« «^««P» -i*h Mr. Mercier, and then his name was not mentioned A. No sl' """"* ^' ''' '"'"'"^ '^ '"*"'"P* °^ ^^^•^'^ «^y«- negotiations? A . It SiT "'" "' "" '' """'' *° '''■ '''''^"' °" "''•'""* °^ '^-^ negotiations ? Q. Why ? A. Because they all fell through. Q. Out of what money did yon propose to pay those $50 000 ' Q. How would he be recouped ? ^ A. He would be recouped out of the bonds when he sold Q. I "nder^tand you to say it afieoted the figures you were prepared to pay ' A. If I pa,d 1225,000 to get possession of the work, I had to make it Q. Please .see if you can make up a statement of the contract A. Very well. By Mr. Hall .— Q. With reference to these bonds issued over the road that wn„i^ u^ ■ , whole one hundred miles ? ' "^ °® *" "■"« o^er the A. Yes, Sir. Q. Could you issue bonds over a portion of it ? A. The bonds would have to be issued over the whole of it road'^' '^'^^*^--**° k-w is, could you successfully float bonds over a portion of the A. I think not. rnn.?ngtderr"'^°^^^'"'"°'^^'"^°^»^-^« -""^ be dependent upon the road being i„ A. Yes, Sir. hi/ Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .•— Q. Did you make any statement and "•ivn .nnv informnHr.n t^ vr /-.u ■ . as to the amount you proposed to pay Mr. Paca.^ ? ^"f«™'«'"" ^o Mr. Charles .Vrn.strong A. No, Sir. Q. How did he become aware of it ? John J. Macdonald 840 not mentioned, gotiations ? 'gotiations ? ;he money to y the debts. the amount calculations? )t have made J25,000 to get i.y? ssue over the ortion of the id being in fM in 1890? ■irnistrong A. I do not know ; I never spoke of any $75,000.00 to Mr. Pacaud, and I do not know how he found it out. I know he says that Mr. Cameron told him so, but I did not see how oe could say any such thing. Q. Was he aware of it at all ? f 1^" ^^'' ^ f """'^^^ ^'"^ ''bout it ; I told him that I had put in fifty thousand dollars lor Mr. racaud. By Mr. Hall:— Q. These bonds issued were to be put upon the market for sale? A. Well, it would take a mar. with a good deal of means I think to take them Mr •Heaton Armstrong was prepared to take the bonds ; I asked him about it, and he said that he was prepared to undertake them. dolla?"?^'°"^*^ *^'^**^^"'''^'^^""'"°^'"^ *^^^^ ^"^""^^ '^*^"''^ ^^ thirty-three cents vn the A. Yes, that is what we woukl get— the parties running the rOad. Q. With reference to Mr. Pacaud and the question you were aaked by the Commission do I understand you to say that ther whs nothing, no question about giving him seventy' hve thousand dollars ? o e> =^ c i,jr A. Fifty thousand dollars is the only amount. I told Mr. Pacaud what I had done • Mr Pacaud, It 13 true, did say to me that he thought that was not enough. ' ' Q. Now, do you recollect when Mr. Pacaud told you that ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Do you recollect, I say, when Mr. Pacaud told you that? A. No, Sir ; I could not place the date ? him ra^J'^hT^ °"^ ^^^ ^""^'^"^ ^"^ dissatisfaction to you that you were not going to pay A. No, Sir. Q. Was the question discussed between you and Mr. Hector Cameron? .hn„f i/ K^'^f 'r"l'!l*' ^ T^'^ T ^^"""^ '" P^^ ^'^"^ "^"y '"'^^^' '^^t i' ^^ no "«e talking :ttV:nigtiLrdoit^'^ '''-' ^-^ ^--^^^^ ^^^ ^^^'^ ^^--^ ^«"-. ^ ^^ -t know' Q. Did Mr. Pacaud tell you how much more he wanted ? A. No, Sir, he did not. Q. Did you have any conversation with him after that time ? A. Well, I met him several limes. Q. Now. Mr. Macdonald do you recollect how long after this conversation it was, when you had au interview with Mr. Eiopel, in Quebec, here ? A. It may have been very shortly after. I could not place the date. Q. Do you recollect the date when you had an interview with Mr. Riopel, in Quebec' A No, Sir, I do not ; it was sometime in the year, February, or perhaps the end of Jan- uary it may be ; but I am not quite sure. .> t- t^ x:un ui dan Q. You and Mr. Riopel had an interview alone? had tiosed. '"*'"'''' ' ^'"^ ^''^ ^""^ """ *'""'' '" ^^ "^"^ ^''^''' ^''"" ' ^"•^'^ *'•'» 'hat 1 with^the"oad y"""""'""' ^°" '^^'"''"^ ^''^ ^'- ^'°P'^ '^° °'""'" '^''' ""'^ '" connection 850 John J. Macdomid Q. Your arrangement with the Government hnH o.«„^ tu were you.to get $400,000, but you had arrr.ed w if fh! n^"^'*"' "°"''"P''^'^ *hat you other claims? •' "" arranged with the old company then to pay these A. Yes. A. Yt sl:: ^"'^' "'^"^^'^ ^'°" *° ~« *^« responsibility of these claims? Q. And you refused to do that 'i* I ^^^^'sz^:"^^T's^:;z;t^^ ^^^ ---^ with m. Hiop., Heaton Armstrong, who was in'Lngla!;d at that diT " """ ^'"^'™"^' ^^^^ '^Mr! the ^d rp^yTeS Cifgrn^; rnfcZXK^^^^^^^ pay would be one hundred and fifty thousand doUarsV ' " "'"'"^ '''''' ^°"'^ ^^^^^ ^o ■ B.n w ^""^ T '^f'^f ** ^"'^ «eventy.five thousand dollars. A !tU w*« one hundred and fifty thousand dollars at fir.tT . thouLfdof*^'*'^ -nterview, I offered to raise it to one hundred and seventy-five Q. And your understanding was that the claim was completed ^ A. I understood ,t was, and I wired Mr. Cameron to that effec ' down^he^S ^"" *^" '''■ «*«P^^ ^'- ™ ^oin. to send t^ .rCameroo, and bring him A. I could not say whether I did or not. Q. Did you tell him when you were Ipavino- v.^™ n,„* arrangements? ^ ^ leaving him, that you would make the necessary A. I think that I di Q. How long a . ter that was it that you saw him again ? as qulck^'iij r Sible."^ ''^ ^''''' ' "*"^ -^"^ '^^•'- Mr. Cameron came down. He came A, 'Ihat was an interest in the contract itself ? A. Yes, Sir ; I said no, that I could not do it. Q. Well, if I understand you rightlv von wpi-o t,^ „„* <• u , . co„p,e.. forty ™ile, bc.w.en'.he JxKndThe oJtlZ^T::^^'"'"',^ "",""■ '° Si?" """•"" '"°™"- -»''•- - "- « "^^'"'^ sxtL-ir iryr.?^ Q. And your four hundred thousand dollars wonlH 1to„„ , . , Metapediato Paspebiac ? ^ ^"-^^ completed ti , road froiu A. Yes, Sir. Q. With the rolling stock ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you undertook the obligation of running the road ^ A. Yes Sir ; there was fifty thousand dollars spoken of for a bridge besides Q. And then in addition to that, vou would .rot ™v,«f fu . "esides. unpaid subsidy ? ' ^°" ^°"'^ ^et what there was of the balance of the A. Yes, Sir ; there was also a subsidy from the Dominion Government. K John J. Macdonafd 851 Q. Oh ! a subsidy from the Dominion Government ? A. Tlie contract for the work for one hundred miles was made with the Dominion <3oveniment, and there was to be a transfer of that contract to me. Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Armstrong about his claim, prior to the two intervje'vs with Mr. Riopel, of which you have just spoken ? A. No, Sir ; I might have discussed something about the work with him. I thought, if I settled with Mr. Riopel, it would be satisfactory to Mr. Armstrong, because he told me he had an arrangement with Mr. Armstrong, and as I understood from Mr. Riopel that Mr- Armstrong was prepared to take thirty thousand dollars. Q. I understood you to say that you s'^.w Mr. Mercier about three times— once in New York, and twice in Quebec, once in the Parliament Buildings ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. In December ? A. Yes, when the House was in session ; in December, i think it was. Q. Do you recollect who went up with you to the buildings ? Did Mr. Pacauo go up ? A. I saw him around the buildings, but I did not discuss anything with him just then. Q. Do you recollect who went up with you. to the buildings ? that is the question I ask ? A. No, Sir ; I think not. I had made an arrangement with Mr. Pacaud to have Mr. Mercier see me, but whether he was present, lam not prepared to say. Q. Mr. Pacaud arranged, you say, so that you might have an interview with Mr. Mercier ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you saw Mr. Mercier at the time indicated ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did Mr. Pacaud come up there with you ? A. No ; I think that he met me there. •Q. He went into the Speaker's room with you ? A. I took a seat until such time as I could see Mr. Mercier. Q. Was Mr. Pacaud present when you were discussing the matter with Mr. Mercier ? A. I do not know ; he did not take any part in the conversation, any way. Q. Sometime after that you got a copy of the bill of which you have spoken ? A. Yes, Sir. ■Q. You got that from Mr. Pacaud, I think ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Do you know whether it had come from Mr. Mercier or not ? A. The first bill I got, I do not know whether it came from him or who it came from. I did not like the wording of it. Q. That is the first bill that you got from Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yes, Sir ; whether it was brought before the House or not. Whatever it was I told Mr. Pacaud that I wanted to be sure that I would get the ten thousand dollars per mile any how ; I did not understand the bill quite. Q. Who got the bill for you the second time ? A. It came from Mr. Pacaud. I think ; he handed one of them to me. 352 John J. MacdonalU i^m i*" ^yB ■1$ mi.- A. Yes, I did. A. 'veil u/Z."""'"" "■»■"'-' ■""'•■■» •'- ^0" -".e:. . you ti^'^S/STetr! "'"■ "'■ ^*"""'- ">"»"" ' ■ - "- conoem.,. .h.t wanted, X remember he ..id th.t they c'ild d„ ' 1, T'* ' ""•°'''' '»■■ ' !« » „ iount I Q. Mr. i'a.jMd then told vou lhr„ r. °" ^"ythmg under thai oiJer A. Yea, Sir. ' * Q. You did not succeed vith Ui.j aW compa^- ? A. No. Sir. I wired Mr. Pac.-vu.J t.-, ,.>-..-,»t me ' tn tr^ ^ . to New York and meet me; and.. .Idme h.UMr Thont?^ T*^ * ^"^ °" ^^ ^"^^ Q. Mr. Pacaud told yr.u th;., !' °"' ^"^ "'^'^^ **" off*-'' Q. HU communicaHon to you with reference to this wua entire.y through ..Mr. Pacaud . A Yi^SiT"*^ ^^ ^*'"^ '^ ^°"'' '"*«™ediary ? Q. Did you think that it wa« necessary to employ Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yf 8. Sir. ^ ^ ''^^^'^^ •" connection with other maf fers ' very quickly. ' ^""''^ '* ^ ^"^^ ^"^ Sive an answer to that, I can answer it Objected to by Hon. Mr. Irvine. Question withdrawn. The witness. A. I did not pay him anything at this linic. Mini^irf^"""'"""' •""'"'• •'-'"•' ^""very Mend,, „.„ ,„. „,„,„,, „, „, witht,,lT.;X'Z^'trv1t\3"""'" ■'""""'"''""'■ ''■-^ ■>• W"«e„d,y mZ f '" '""™' '" "'■ """""• *» «'-"«">' Public Workajn eonneotion -itl, .„i. Id„tt'rnS-,'.er.Ll"S"S:r„e^;'r.ir -^ ^— '"".'^o^ „. .0 M^-paTdT" ""' ^°" "" "»"•" ' ■>-• -«"■"« «% 'ho„,»na dc. , p»i„ A. Yes, Sir. Q. You considered that necessary to put this transaction through ? John J. Macdonald '81 ;.n thiii yon icernetJ, that !ifc a.nount I le work, out II answer it A. Yes, Sir, I did. ~"' Q. Just ax a bulk sum ' ^1/ Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .•— Q. Were you stopping at the Windsor Hotel '' A. Oh no, not at the W^'udsor Hot«, ; I shouKl have said at the St. Lawrence Ha„ By Mr. BHque :—■ A. Yes. tr"^ '''"' ''"" "'* '^'- ^ercier three different times ? A y"s' Sir t?r'T *''' ^'" '"^^ ^™ ^"« ^° New York ? M 3 ' ^ '•f«''^"ce to these transactions. 1 fo, sir ^ '^ "" ^^"°° *^ ^'^P-' *^^* ^- -uld meet him in New York ? Q. Before the day that you called on him ' A. No, Sir. Q. You sent in your card ? A. I think Mr. Cameron sent in his card. Q. The second time you met him, when was it ' A. I thmk m his office. Q. When was it about ? i^J-JlZ'r ""■ ■""' •"°"^- *■ •'-"O -"S^d for the interview, .„„ „e ..„ Bj:,TrZjl'- •-"""' """^"^ '■<" '"• '"'«"™'»«'.v-.P..t,.f,w«it«i„.h, ,o„„f ■""' ""' """" *-' «»- ™- » '»-"■ ' .Hint thi. w« i„ Mr, ^,e.cie,.. „™ Q. Mr. Pacaud was not present at the interview ? A. Yes, Sir, he was. Q. Will you state what occurred at that interview » said tz:^z:::;^]^:^z:- st^tXtsr ''- -'^-'- ' ^-'^ ^^--^ ^^- 1 gone.andlthinkMr.Mercieraskedustowrthtr^^^^^^^^^^ ^5 «« he had the company, and wo called to let hitn know wl, ,7 ^ , ^*'' ^'""« J^fflculty with spoke then about only allowing Zvmtl^^e 'ZZ Tom' M "p' ^^ ^^^ ^"«■- that we could not do it for that sum. ^ *°*^ ^'■- ^^caud afterwards 28 354 John J. Macdmald Q. Did not Mr. Mercier speak at that time of the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land ? A. That did not come up just then. Q. Try and fix the date of that interview as well as the one in New York ? A. I cannot. Perhaps if I had my memorandum book here I could give the one in New York, but I could not the other one. Q. Was it in November ? A. Probably. Q. It was before the session ? A. It may have been. The session might have been going on here at that time. Q. That was before the railway resolutions were introduced ? A. Yes, Sir, sometime before. I was here so often off and on that I really could not fix the date exactly. Q. The second interview arranged by Mr. Pacaud wa<^ after the interview in New York' A. Yes, Sir, it was sometime afterwards. Q. You think it was sometime in October ? A. I think about the early part of October. Q. So that the second interview might have been in the early part of November? A. It would be perhaps the middle of November. Q. It was a short interview you had with Mr. Mercier then? A. Yes, Sir, and Mr. Cameron was the spokesman on that occaaion. Q. It was very short ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And nothing definite waa done at that time ? A. No, Sir. Q. Mr. Mercier suggested that any proposition you had to make you were to put in writing? A. Yes, Sir. And Mr. Cameron, I think, wrote him a letter as actmg for Mr. Heaton Armstrong and myself. Q. As the result of that interview, was it? A. I am not sure whether that was the one or not. There was another letter written when I was asking for the $10,000.00 per mile. Q. Was it yourself or was it Mr. Cameron who wrote that letter ? A. It wa« Mr. Cameron. Q. You are aware that he did write Mr. Mercier, putting in writing the proposition you intended to make ? A. He wrote for me from the Garrison Club. I think may be that was in his own hand-writing. Q. Were those letters written by Mr. Cameron signed by you ? A. I think one was signed by me and the other one by Mr. Cameron. Q. Did you keep copies of those letters ? A. I think I have a copy of the letter that I wrote myself. Q. Have you any copies of the letters Mr. Cameron wrote? A. I really cannot say. Q. As to the third interview you had it was in the Speaker's room during the session ? A. Yes, Sir. John J. Macdonald 355 Q. Tliere were several people present there ? etter written the session? them^' """' ''"" ""' '"""• P^'^''^^ P'^««"* *^«'- I Jid not notice particularly any of Q. At that time had the railway resolutions been introduced ? r^o.Ll'^^tll't::ut'^^^^^^ ' -- -^-' they were. I am clause. ^ i"troauced or not. I was dissatisfied with the reading of that Q. You were dissatisfied with the subsidy of eight hundred thousand acres of land? «at.s;^/r;^-:S^:jzt-rirr^^ opinion on it ; »nd he toH me it wm all right. oiungeu, and I took Mr. Irvine's Q. Did yon not then state to Mr. Merei.r that yon wonld no.acc.pt ofthe land .„b.idy . wh.tU^,^rde™L^^tirwf c»Tdn„rlfaST,"r'°;"""'»^^ '■>•'"•• . mile, and we alaay. talked o .M,S) a mHe and that i ^ '^""'""'■l "id »10,000 .oin, t. hreak oiT then, hecan., we iould "ofdo i^l j'SJl ZthZaSll' """^ ™ *,.<^^J:^ """' "" •" """ "" "" " ■'"°"^- "i" '- -'"«>. mention „a. made of the tlTo'il """' "' '° '"" '■" """"■"•-■* "i ""'"nowl wasdiaaatiefiedwith Q. You say your diwatiBfaolion had reference to the »7,0(IO ? a mife c!ri.' rcoLr?ki^:?hr i'r„\rhreLtr'het7 with the Temiscouata Railway. changed, because we had some already Q. Try to remember if when vou saw thp hill it .u^ .,„♦ • i acres of land ? ^ ^ '''" '* '^^'^ "°* «"nply mention the 800,000 wor<^n/onu « /etrnt^b^^^^^^^^^ ™'t^- ^'^^^ ^'^^ ^^ -'"^'^ke in it. The referred^o the first sixt'S"; sol Sa^^^^^^^^^ "'■'"°^^' ''''' '^« »''" -■ Pacaud's attention to itf and h; calLd Mr Metie?s " ^'■'"'"^- ' ''^^" '='^"«'^ '^'' Q. As a matter of fact, wa. it not 10,000 acres per mile that wa. in the bill you saw ^ A. I think it applied to the first sixty miles, whatever it may have been. Q. You expressed your dissatisfaction, and you indicated tn M- itr • , would not act under these terms? maic.ited to Mr. Mercier that you .etr;£i:s^;--tsr-stS.X^^^ Q. You say, as it was worded originally, it applied to the sixty miles only ? A. I am not sure. It is very easy to get the bill. m 856 John J. Mncdonald Q. By the change made, whs il uia' t > .tppiy to the 100 miles of the road? . A. No, I tliink it iippiied ih.n, Irom the sixtitlh to Gusp<:-, and it hm all been applied ou the forty miles. I know I was 'uisfied Q. Have you any recollection of the wording of it? A. I went to Mr. Irvine to get his views ; and I was satisfied, and Ididnotsay anvthins? more about it. Q. Alter you saw Mr. Irvine, did you communica. _ v.iih Mr. Mtrciei. .r 'id you write to him ? A. No, I ►aw Mr. Pacaud ; and Mr. Pacaud told n.e it wculd be all right under that clause, and that I need not trouble myself about it. Q. What do you ?ny about Mr. Pacaud ? A. I was diKsatist.ed about it, and he told me it was all right ; but I was not satisfied with his explaniition, a.id I went and got Mr. Irvim 's opinion, and after that I was satisfied that Mr. Pacaud v. -rj right. Q. Who broke oTthe negotiatioi s with the Government at that time ? A. Well, I don't know. Of course, Mr. Mercie r, when he spoke to me, said he would not give the 17,000 ; then thi.i ">" "«"■ -• »» »««"'i.«n. wi.., .he Gove™- A. I saw him on my return from England, in May. Q. Was there any negotiation between vou an I Mr r^nno.. »k » . , • interest in the new arrangement ? °°P^' "^""^ •''''"'• "'•^'"g 'i" A^ Through Mr. Thom. He was the man I discussed the matter with. Mr Cooper n-av have bee.1 present at one or two discussions ; but I had a discussion with Mr. Cooper t"u Q. W ere you r.tlered any interest in the new arrarigement ? thewortb^aLird^r^rhrnim man and knowing he had infh.rce wUh Mr' ^hl. 1 . "T ^™ "" ^ ^o"«dential when I found he was uegotilt^^^th Ifk J we Tc.t^ttreT'Mr^?; rather astonished hnn who told me he wa« negotiating. I asked him'abo^n anrLlailtluppolT;:^' off as far as I w.s concerned, and if I was still looking after it he wouU lu^hdrar r T^ him what the offer was, and he said $o60,0()0; and I said : ' ' As yoTit t^n^a .re T.l more thn n I...B.fore that ho said if Mr. Cooper got it, he woulZ^; ^a JSe S hi^! John J. Macdonald 859 self some practic.il man ; and he would like me to take a liand in. I said, if Mr. Cooper had no othorrf mto it-that i>., if he had no rinp-if he waa alone, I would so in. On mv reti;rn, he told mo that Mr. Dawes waa likely to take an interest in it ; and I said that Mr. Dawes was astr.ing man financially, and if he wiw going in with Mr. Cooper, [ would be prepared to lake a ot.e-third interest. We had sev.ual talks about it ; and he showed me a copy of the Order ni Council, and he referred me to Mr. Cooper. He was leaving for Quebec. When I spoke to Mr. Cooper, the only thing he wanted me to pay him was «150,0()0 and he would settle with Charles Armstrong. This I would not do; and then negotiations weie broken off. Q. You ceased negotiations? A. Everything ceased. I saw clearly they did not want to give an interest ; they wanted to sell the contract, Q. Yon stated you went over the road before making the estimates ? A. YeH. Q. Did you go over the road in a hand car ? -^ A. A portion of it. Q. Did you visit the sixty miles already built ? A. I went over it in a hand car. Q. What opinion did you form of the expenditure it would require to complete these sixty miles ? A. Between sixty and seventy thousand dollars. Q. What opinion did you form of the value of the rolling stock the company had on hand at the time ? A. I did not see all the rolling stock ; but from what I had heard, and what little I did see, very poor. Up in Mr. Moreau's department here I got a copy of Mr. Light's report ; and he valued the rolling stock at «G0,OO0; but I did not consider it worth that from the inform- ation I got. Q. How much did you consider it was worth ? A. I am not prepared to say what value I put on it. Q. About ? A. Thirty or forty thousand dollars would be a big estimate. There was new roUinr stock got by Mr. MacFailane-one new passenger car, a second class car and exnress There were a lot of flats there that I was told were perfectly useless. I saw several of them lying along the flats at New Carlisle. They were old cars before they went there, bought from some other road ; so I was told. Q. Do you remember, Mr. Macdonald, when you were examined before the Senate Committee, the following question .• " Did any member of the Government ever give you to understand that Mr. Pacaud was an agent of tho Government, or represent to you that Mr. Pacaud was an agent of the Government in tins transaction, " and your answering no to the question ? Do you remember that ? A. Yes. Q. That was correct ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. You still persist in that answer ? A. I never got any w .rd from the Government that he was to act for them. 860 Ernest Pacaud By. Mr. Hall.— the new company were to get ? '" ^"^ last-about the amount of money A. Mr Thorn showed me the Order in Council,-a copy of it. paid1;im;''°"''^^"^°""*^^^°"«^'«» ^^-^ ^- Armstrong's claim and the amount they strucl':r"" ''^"' ^•""' '"'^^^^'°" ^« ^^'^^ ^h-^''^ ^y -ur«el. and it « ordered to be And further deponent saith not. M H'^ Iff ^ Hit 11 l|j i-'- sjH Hw ' !-^^aH IB 1 Q. You are ajournaliat, and reside in the city of Quebec ' A. I am ati advocate and journalist A. Yes, Your Honour. Vour Honour, between now .T.:Zrr,r.r,:r:iu ,« ta ri"1 "^ to emnnnem-to-m^w on that portion of my testimony ''°""°° Q. We hayo no objeotion to that. Ha«e yoi, any otherdeclaration to make ' banker, at th Windsor Hotel As ZL An k" "r '"''' ^'■- ^'''^'°" Armstrong, Cameron, of Toronto In ^ sec, uence o^ J remember, I wa. introduced by Mr. Hector «... «»,e wa.-a 4y .„„, tir;t^;rti:L: rr e;f rrr s srsc: Ernest Pacaud 861 mtreal, discusa- lount of monev i amount they \ ordered to be duly sworn 3d to make a iment, all the uks, cheques, Jxamined by n a position e? lake a decla- itimony just xamined. ig a contract t? '■ entrusted ? es Chaleurs Armstrong, Mr. Hector Armstrong !io Bale des iipauy, and operation. c^r?ctt!.''nTtV^V°"^'^"?■*""'^^'*"^' *^ form a syndicate to buy up the interests of the directors ot the then existing company. Q. That was Mr. Heaton Armstrong ? to \:^'^Z'J'' ^r°" ^Tt'''"^ ^ ^"^'^ ^™ *^''* ^ ^^"''^ undertake it and would attend to u. bometime alterwards, Mr. Heaton Armstrong came to Quebec, and I met him in company w, h tlie Hon. Judge I. vine. Mr. Atwater and Mr. Hector Cam;ron. Mr. A m stTo^g asked me ^f I had done anytlnng in the direction of which he had spoken to me in the hrs! interview nt the Windsor Hotel. I told him yes, that I had seen Mr. Alphonse ChlrleboTs contractor and that I was in treaty with him, and that I thought he wouW undertake to form a syndicate o buy up aU the mterests of the B.ie des Chaleurs CompHuy. He asked me to obtain an interview lor hnn with Mr. Mercier, during that trip. I took steps to obtain that interview, but untortunately Mr. Mercier's time w.,s taken up for every hour of that day and we could not meet Mr. Mercier. Mr. Armstrong then returned to Montreal. A few days afterwards, I received a despatch from Mr. Arsmstrong which reads as follows : Montreal, Se;.t.2l8t. .. ^'"'!'w ? ""f your friends like see me Quebec Tuesday ? Heard toslay friend coming Montreal Wednesday. Don't want miss him again. W. HEATON ARMSTRONG, Windsor Hotel. I telegraphed to Mr. Armstrong that Mr. Mercier was in fact to be in Montreal on the W ednesday, and that to avoid any misunderstanding again, that I would go to meet him. I, in lact, went to Montreal to meet Mr. Armstrong. 1 telephoned to the Government office or to Mr. Mercier's private residenoe.-I do not remember which-asking an interview. Mr. Mercier stated that he would receive, :ind was ready to receive Mr. Ar,nstrong and to receive me, I think about eleven o'clock. I went to the Government office with Mr. Armstrong and w. met Mr Mercier. I introduced him to Mr. Mercier, and Mr. Armstrong at once told him what was the object ot his interview: it whs to take advantage of his trip to Canada to obtain from the Prime Minister himself exactly how the Baie ues Chaleurs Company stood, that ho^had heard it spoken oi; and intended to negotiate the bonds of that company, and that he wished to get information from the Prime Minister himself as to the subsidies which had been paid, the subsidies which remained to be paid, and different other information which Mr Armstrong wished to got. Mr. Mercier sent for all thestatutes respecting railways, arid the statutes respecting the Baie des Chaleurs Company in partic^ilar. He then answered all the questions which Mr. Armstrong asked him, as to the subsidies paid and to be paid. Mr.Armst'ongsaid he was satisfied, and said to Mr. Mercier : I intend to negotiate the bonds,nndam,napo.,it,ontodoso for any syndicate that will engage to undertake the work which has been abandoned. We withdrew, and Mr. Armstrong then tol.l me that he was leaving tor British Columbia, but that he would let me know when be would return. Sometime attei wards Mr. Armstrong telegraphed me or, I am not positive if it wa^ Mr. Heaton Armsti-ong or Mr. John J. Macdonald who asked me to go to meet him at the Levis station on S.mday morning. He was on hi. return from inspecting the Temi.scouata Rail- way. I crossed over to Levis and met in th„ special car .,f the Tomiscouata Company, Mr. Heaton Armstrong, John J. Macdonald, Chs. Mcintosh, momi.or for Ottawa, anil Mr "4MHII 362 Ernest Pncaud but tlmt I tl^ought he Z rea" atteninl T '' ^ ^""^ ""' '''^" ^^- Charlehois lately. do you not come tlZ iSXnA^i^^^^^^ 2" ^""«''«"g -ked me : why pleaded to coa.e to an undemaTlC^^^^ ,\ /"J" ^'^"•'""'^'^ ? I said : I would be contracted nu.st favon.bl wn^o th^ wf G ^ T'' because he is one of the which ho gave in the construcron of t e Temlconr T" ' "^""^ '° '''' satisfaction were faithfully carried out. I have no.Seir bn" T'"' ^'" ^^^ ^"^'^g-'^ent^ I can make no arrangement with Mr Z^J^ u ' -^u T^ '" ''■'^*^ ^'*^'' ^I'' ^h^rlebois, Mr. Charlebois. ImSLte y after tSTT""'^""^""''^'^^^^ '-■om my promise by and we had a long comerSn m m1 In "m'" '''"' "'* "'*' ^'•- '^^h" •^- ^acdonald re;eased from n,y^,romSg en\o M S^^^ "f *° ^''^ "" '" -^ P--' to get to buy out the interests of the e 1,1^^ dt rTn? r ' ° ^T""'"' '"^'■'^''""^ ^"'l' '> '"'» to attend to it, and in fact. aftTt S'tu '^^^^^^^^^^ ^?'"""'' I"""'"' ^''- ^^^^-^---^^ ing at the time for New York w itheMhr '^^«'^S«"t''^"^en-these gentlemen were lea v- leave for England-on reSng i!^: th^iZwlT'^'T^'^ ^""^'""^- "'— '« lebois and I told him : that now M Ma 1 ^a '/I ""'"''^ '"'«'?• ^^'"^"^ ^^ «^« Mr. Char- engage in the un.lertakinJ h«T ! H ^'''5'''°"'^'''' ^^" was a responsible contractor, wished to Thereupon Mr « a/lfb L'u'd me t^at'th "",7<^"'^«''' ^n immediate answer w.s ,.,, re immediate answer. He I to" ' " t U '" ^""- '^''^""P^'"''^"^ *"r ^i^ to give mean i>r.>mi«e, nmke your a^^ an^'m^^^^^^^ I '^el-- you from your at o.^ and we thencel"frr I ' 7 1 , , • ''': ^ """'' ^ "'^''"'^'^ '^^r. Macdonald went to inspect the C^ X ilv < n! 1 " " "''«°^"^^'""«- ^ ^now that Mr. Mac.lonal re.nen.ber exar.tly.. '"" '''■'^•^•^' '^'=<^"'"Panied by his engineer. I do not Q. That wiia after this conversation? A. Yes, it was after that c -nv.rsation ho went there A. Yes. 1 think it was a Mr. McCarthy. y. Do you know about what date ? ' l».n^aw:"3tflp;;■;l,;;^T:;^h.;:^"''* r\'"'" ■" '■-■" "«■" '»- ""-'■"', *«'i' '«i.«™porr: ri; ,^ , :,■£:;:„ ,*»-■«;""«■" "^ Sometime afterwards Mr M.i •.In.,.,! i f i„ u i h^wll wiin Alt. Hector Cameron. Mr, Hector Cameron W^.j'td h neS.o '"' '" ""'/"" '^"'''^ '" "^'^'^^ ^^''^^ MacloruUdspol-otousalHM, i V ^? . ' "'" '""''^ '■^''''' •^"^'^"».'^' i"to : Mr. Parlian..n,i:u:er a \1 ZSrihch'tr''''";^,"^ ^^^"-^'-^ ^'> «o to the John ... Macdonald an,l Mr. H^r C^ZroT W T. T T' T'''^' ' ''^''^ ^'^'^ MV. able Mr. Garnc.u's private sccr rv /ll . ^ n f ''^"'' *'^ ''"^ '^'^"'^ "'' "'« H-'"^'"- an Enghsh version 'oal he stTuues ^t^'^ ^ "^""''''^ ^" «>"«''t general and the Baie des fLe « r '^'^^'"^ '"l^^ "' Q^>el>ec respecting railways in the next day, learned thaTh: I'ul dont'o '^""'■""' *^' ^'^^ ^'^"^'^^'^"- ^ '^'"'-•-rdH, a^kedM:zi:;;';ir:;:dS:;?:::l^';i^^^;r;;;^^""'' «'• -^^-^« --• ^ ation in his power upon aZ:;i^>^x:^^z:zt;::::^--^' ^^^*"'^- Ernest Pacavd 363 I left these gentlemen in Mr. Moreau's office and afterwards I withdrew. ' There were several interviews afterwards ; Mr. Macdonald often telegraphed me to meet him m Quebec. During that tir.ie, Mr. Macdonaid continued his negotiations with the directors and shareholders, creditors of the old company. He often asked me to go and see Mr. Mercier, to communicate to him his proposals and what he required to obtain, so as to undertake the construction of the road. Mr. Mercier always told mo that Mr. Mac.lonald's proposals were extravagant, that he asked too much ; and naturally I insisted a good deal on Air. Macdonald's behall ; and Mr. Mercier told me that he personallv knew the conditi-.n Of the road and.that, notwithstandmg that Mr. Macdonald was a railway contractor, he could not exaggerate the condition of the road to him, that he knew what wo:k was done and he would certainly not grant what was nsked. I communicated this to Mr. Macdonald, who was much discouraged. I then told Mr. Macdcnald that he had better speak to Mr. Mercier himself, as Idid not know enough about the state of the road to reply to Mr. Mercier in the discussion when Mr. Mercier answered what I told him by such or such a fact. Then, f know that Mr. Macdonald, at my request, had at that time an interview with Mr. Mercier. WhHt I now remember about the negotiations in this matter, was during the session, at the time which Mr. Macdonald has mentioned, when the railway resolutions wore laid before the Legislature. Idid not moet Mr. Macdonald there by accident ; Mr. Macdonald asked me to m.-et him at the St. Louis at three o'clock to go to the Parliament House. It was stated in the news papeis at the time that the railway re,«olutions were to be Md before the House at the sitting of that afternoon. I went with Mr. Macdonald, and on arriving at the P.irlinment House Mr. Macdonald asked me how he could tret the reaolutir.ns ; he said to me : " I would like very much to get a copy at once." I told him : " I had not been able to get a copy. This is what you should do. You will go and lind Mr. Oliver-who was law clerk-and ask him for a copy ; but I will not go with you, you will go you, self. Tell him that you are a railway man, I think Mr. Oliver will give you one at once." I was to wait for Air. Macdonald in the Speaker's room. Tlie House was sitting at tiie time. Mr. Macdonnld camo with a copy of the resolutions in French and told me " I do not umlcr.^tand any „f it, .lo try and get me a copy in English." I could not get a cpy at the time, but 1 told him to wait and I would seize the first opportunity that Air. Alercier would be free to ask him to come to the Speaker's room, and we would got fn,m him all the information he wished to have. Tn fact we waito 1 about half or three-quarters of an hour; I sent a message to Mr. Mercif r in his seat, that whenever he was free Mr. Alacdonald would very much like to see him in the Sr)eaker'8 room. Mr. Mercier camo out and thoy had an interview. I was present for part of the time. I know that Mr. Mercier showed the resolution to Mr. Macdonald, and that Air. Macdonald, on Beeing that, threwthe resolutions on the table stating : " It is useless. ■■"17fl5SlEiSrF'^ H--^'-TO»*^->|™BPW*r *VM-r:*tv; ' 564 Ernest Pacnvd tions re«lly oivos vou " M^ lir, ,. f i ,i , , '"' "■■•' ""« »'"i«e <'f 'he niihvay r«.olu- Swl'f "• ""°'""'"" "" "■"" "'■'°'' ™" •"•'™"l» ""^^l » n ^ T*^' ^^'^ ^™^*''"^'^' ^oU und he then asked me to ari^nge a nttefvrXw'"'M'"M "''""' '' ^" ^^''^^^^rne's, to the other car an.l a.ked Mr.Tle,; "r^^MrMt^rasSl mrwh; m' "T'f ' ^""^ "^ to see him, whether it wns on business or oti.erw^; " M: rje' t^ ' ^r • If',""'"' business I do not wish to see him ; he is welcome if 1,^ w;=' , *"' '. ™^ ' ^^ "■ 's on he comes to talk to us of the Baie des ChreuTi la ! IT T """"" T ""' '"' '"^ '*' what answer to give directly to Mr LHUaTm^: t • '''"/^^.^f^'^'ne ^ letter, and I know see Mr. Armstr.'ng on this L^^'^ "r^Z r ttt 17/: 7m' l '''''' '"^ that Mr. Mercier would give the an..wer to Mr L.Hamme Z't thlf ^!: ^'""^'^oug Montreal he mightgo and see Mr Lafiamm,. .»,H fl ?t^ .u L' ^' "" ^"^ '"''*"'■" '« Mr. LHtlamme belore leaving New Yoi ""^*^'^*^'^"^^*hat Mr. Mercier would answer Neverth»;le8s, on tlie instances of Mr. Arnistrnncr t o-o,,, u- j the instances of Mr. Armstrong, ,. I always anarm'Wnh^^^^^^ ' '''^*?- ^ """«* ""^ *»^ negotiations with him, that I Lui not listen "any of^i^ p'o IT^ Wh " '^ T' "*° strong's suggestion, I consented to give him a despatch which iT^te ZT' ^% ^""• on my knee. I wrote a despatch in pencil for him to the Hnnn k7 V r '"'"P ''* ^^^^^ if he had received an answer from iSr Ma^ on dd bec.uf. ". k ^"■'"'' ^"^^"^ ^™ of Mr. Armstrong's letter of the tenth i'SSl'd'c^m^^^^^^^^ not remember if I got him to read it or if r onlv ™vp I,," JTh k f ^''^"^^ ' ^ '^o him that Mr. Armstrong pretended tlmtM--Ma;HonlMr^ m substance of it, but I told and that he himself offered to t' our a new sTndTcatt . "^ ^T ''""^ ''' "^^""ationa. would complete the works. Then I sad to Mr The ^ ^7^^^ °' "^^""^''"^ ™- ^^o get an answer from Mr. Macdonald, we mus^ kn, i what 1 n tenTJ Tdo" 7.1-'"^"^* withdrawn or if he intends to continue the negotiation 'theTlnenar?' f^T" ^' "^^ Mr. Irvine on board the cars, and I askeJ Mr. Irmstiw^ to e^d ft b. m .?'*'"' '""^ MSt. Jean d'lberviUo, where he was to leave the trai^ ThVdespatU toTr.T-'^". ''f '"" produced here; it was to ask him if he had an answer and Tate er '-h'""'^ forwarJ it to me to the Brunswick Hotel at New Y nit 11 i ?, f "^"^ '''^ '^"''^^er to told Mr. Armstrong that if Mr. ^^o:LZ^:'ZT^l^^^^^^ Friday, and Wednesday of the next week, that then I would cons Z n-v . r ^' ^^^' and would be di.po..! to enter into negcti^.ou, with him. Ztr^Ztg ' I must state also thn.t I th,a. I telegraphed again to Mr. Irvi^ on arrival at New Yn.t m the same sense, to conrtrm tUe d«ipatch that I had entrusfd to Mr. Cstron^ I also Ernest Pacaud 867 ■" Ernest Pacaud, " Ottawa, Ont., 13. " Brunswick Hotel, " New-York. " JOHx\ J. MACDONALD." This telegrapli is fyled as Exhibit No, 75. C. n'\™L'o;;^""^'™"« '■'^'•"-^' '" - ^'- '^-P^tch, is he Mr. Heaton Arn^strong or Mr A. Mr. C. N. Amstrong, oontr.clor, ofMont.oal. ' A"»»"»»S ? 1: ^., yX H»Zr'' ""■'""■ '■'"'"■™ "'""ed .0 B.gla„d , Q. He had g(jne back to England ' " Brunswick Hotel, " New- York. " Have you final answer. Shall I proceed with negotiHtions. ,„ . , " C. N. ARMSTRONG." IhiB tele-raph is fyled as Exhibit No. 76 the despatch,-that he might come telegraphed him-I have not ArniCg" *'^ "^^•' *'^ ^^'"^ ^^^- '••--«' ^'"« -Bwer to my last despatch to Mr. " Montreal, 17th March, 1891. '' To Ernest Pacaud, " Brunswick Hotel, " New- York. " Cooper and I will be in New York Thursday morning. Arrange meeting. " C. N, ARMSTHONO," 868 Ernest Pacavd This telegram is fy'ed as Exhibit No. 77 J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commission. ROYAL C0MMIS8I0]vf CANADA, ; Province of Quebec, > District of Quebec. ) Issued under the Great Seal of the Province constituting and appointing the Honourable LoDis-A. Jett6, Judge of the Superior Court, the Honourable Loui8-Fran50is-Georgks Baby Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench, and the Honourable Charles-Pkers Davidson, Judge of the Superior Court, Commissioners, to inquire into and report on the facts and circum- stances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie de.i Chaleurs Railway Company 10th SITTING. The twenty-third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundrpd and ninety-one. Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis-A. Jett6, President, '■ Louis-Francois- Georges Baby, " Charles-Peers Davidson. Commissioiiers. ERNEST PACAUD, advocate and journalist, again appeared and continued his denosi tion ns follows : ' By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — Q. We stopped yesterday in your evidence, Mr. Pacaud, at the point when negotiations with Mr. Macdonald were broken olf and negotiations with Mr. Armstrong commenced ' A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Will you be good enough to continue your recital ? A. Yes, Your Honour. It was the morning of the 19th March, nt the Brunswick Hotel New- York. I was talking in the rotunda of the hotel with the Honourable Mr Robidoux and the Honourable Mr. Charles Langelier when Mr. C.N. Armstrong came into the hotel accompanied by another gentleman, who I first thought was Mr. Cooper as he had telegraphed me the evening beioro that he was coming with Mr. Cooper. After shal-ine hands with Mr. Armstrong, he introduced Mr. Thorn to me, as being Mr. Cooper's reuri sentative. Mr. Armstrong then also introduced Mr.Thomto my friends, the Honourable Mr. Robidoux and the Honourable Mr. Langelier. We talked of things generallv for a while, then Mr. Armstrong told me that he wished to speak to me privately and asked" me to withdraw with him. We had been walking up and down the rotunda of the Brunswick Hotel Mr. Tliom was with Hon. Mr. Robidoux and the Hon. *Ir. Charles Langelier in another part of the same room. Mr. Armstrong said to me : " V\\\, J understand by your dispatch I 24 370 Ernest Pacaud received, that you are nr.w willing;to take hold of my matter. - I said to Mr. Armnrone • " Yes, I am inclined to do 6o, but before going further, I wish first to know if vuu saw Mr^ Macdonaldii. Montreal on Mondn.- because I received a despatch from Mr.' ^facdonald telling me that he saw you, in the Baie des Clmleurs matter in Montreal on the loUowirig Moiilay. T received that despatcii on the Saturday. " I read the despatch to him, the de- spatch wliicli I read yesterday and which I produced. Mr. Armstrong told me, I think, that he had not seen Mr. Macdonald on the Monday ; that in any case there was no understanding or settlement between him, the directors of the company and Mr. Macdonald. I then said ; " Well, Igave Mr. Mawlonal.l up to yesterday ; he lias given me no deilnite ainwer ; I am ready to do businea with you." Mr. Armstrong then asked me : " Xow, what interest do vou wish me to give you in the matter? " I told hitn ; " before going further, I wish to know two things from v.'.u : if the syndicate which you are about to form will bind itself.Hrst, to be content wiih what the statutes allow u|) to the present time to the Baie .les Chaleurs Company, to ask for nothing Ue either by Order in Council or otherwise, or by promise of new legislation; secondly i,,it your syndicate be composed, at le:ist, of Mr. Cooper, whoever the others may be, and that Mr. Cooper and his associates be prepared to give to the Government all the guarantee.^' which the Government may require for the faithful execution of their engagements with the Government." Mr. Armstrong told me that he would make it a condition sine quunon. " Then, Mr. Armstrong again aMu'd me : " What interest do you require "—or something h..o that, I do not remember exa.; \y t;„ expression, it was in English, but it may be rendered something like that : " What mt^ ,y. .;,. you wish me to give you in the matter, or, do you require in the matter ?" Then, ,( 3M'' that reason that I thought I w,,s in sight of a sort of go Id mVn Sh T t 1^ T T 'Z work and that is why I asked for the §25,000 additional. And I n t av W H *^"n''^ ^^^^^Bo^ore leaving .N.w York. I received a despatch from John J. Macdonald; this des- " To EnxKST PACArB, " ^"'^'' "^'"'^ '"'''• ^^^l. " Brunswick Hotel, " New York. " Leaving here Monday for New York, taking steamer for Liverpool WednP,rl„v t '•• M^ntrTalMXr "" '''-' ^^^'^^ '^ -" ^^ ^ in ^w^Yr Slly L^ " JOHN J. MACDONALD." I produce this telegram as Exhibit No 78 I answered Mr. Macdonald that I could not remain in \ew York n. , askmg him If he could not, instead of Monday meet me i n m^ f ^ i '^ ^"""Sev, I could take the Sunday afternoon tra"n to V^ 1 ^n n ^ 't °" Sunday, so that telegraphed no. that he'could nT rt^l;^^toX^gtre„ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ '^^^- Monday, that he wished absolutely to see me I re„rnri f v ^,. '''"""'" ""^'^ evening, I think it was the same day the >l,f nnH t T !.. ^"""^ ^°'^ °" Saturday naet Mr. Boswell, Mr. MacdoTa^dt ^1 :; wCa^^^^^^^^^^ '-"""^- 1 Macdonal.1 could not come toMontLl b Le MonTy flTto wTie th!t h"' '""" !'"' '^^• the New York 4 o'clock train to take the steamerTNew Yo -k! f . ' "'"^ *° ^^^"" ^^ I remained and met Mr. Macdonald. ^^ Znonald nTkll 1 T"^ T'''''' '' ''' '"^ " him how it was, that after ail the despa ches which 1^^ A ''*;""' "'" ""^«- ^ ^^'^ had sent to Mr. Irvine, that not ha -^HSlS^ ^^^T^^^:^^^!^ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k /, ^ .^. 4^ /. ^ 1.0 I.I Hi m IL25 i 1.4 6" 2.5 2.2 2.0 IM 1.6 / V n Sciences Corporation iV ' \ A V 23 WeST MAIN STRKT WEBSTIR.N.Y. MS80 (716) 872-4S03 l^\ ^\ ^\ 872 Ernest Pacaud and that I was now going to do all I could to get the contract for building the Baie de» Chaleurs Railway to the Cooper syndicnte. likecUo h"!'h!!r'''. '^" ""'^ ''".T 'f'"'"^- ^' "'**'' '° ""^ = " ^ ^'"»'J have very much b , M Ri ,^"te.prize, and took a great m.my step«, I lost a great deal of time over t'^ . I' Z' "'■'^''''l''^''''''^''- I^ i^- evident that during the whole time Mr. Riopel was treating w. h me, he had promised to others that he would assi.^n his intere«t, and he kept me in treatj- ,ke that lor nothing." But in any ca«e Mr. Mac lonald said to me " r-viH leave you my addres.s to the care of the Montreal Bank. London, and I hope vou will apply to me and to Mr. Cameron for the negotiation nfthe bonds. Although I have not g t the ontract I an> at lea.t ,n treaty with Mr. Armstrong, banker of London, who w^ disposed to negotia e the b..nds, and I ask you not to apply to any other p.i^on than mT Mo= IirrLondon^^ "^^" ^'^^^ ^^ ''' '"'-^ ^ ' have Just^stated. t^o the care of ^l^ We then separated. I returned to Quebec on the SOth March this i^eUer'-"' '=°'"'"""''^''**°" *'"^' ^ ''"^ ^^«' ' thinl:. from C. N. Armstrong. He wrote me , " Montreal, 30th March, 1891. " My dear Pacaud, "Mr. Thorn goes down to Quebec to-night, in connection with the Baie dcs Chaleurs " 5e w sh "'to "h ".' "'^'r ,'" ''' '"^^ '"^'"'-^ *^'™"«*'' ^' *■- •« P^^"'"^ without dela" He wishes to Imd out exactly how and when the *28u,U0(. will b. paid by the Government. •' vZi wm r', r ' " T" '" '?■ ^■"' '" '^'^ ''■" *° ^'•- ^'^'•"-" -^^ -"le the plit When will Ji .Iji loiix and Langelier return ? " M," tIo'\ ??''"'' '" '^'^;'^'''"':^''' '-etween y (HI and me, I wish you would agree to take M.. rHom into your couhdence. He can be absolutely relied „n,and some member of the 8yn.licate must be in.or.ned. As long as he was saiistie.l. no , ,ue else in the syndicate need " ^"^Zde?" ",f • 'rr '"'■^1 "'^'' '"•'■ ''''''' ^""^'^ *" "''" "hile he is down and come to an unde.stand.ns. It you dec.de not to sp. ak to hiin ou this point, you have only to " remain silent about It. i 'j a, t .,iii^\ lo " Yours sincerely, " C. N. ARMSTRONG." I produce this letter as Exhibit No. 79. I think T did not answer Mf. Armstrong in writin,^, but at the interview which r„llowe.l the roce.pt o;th,s letter, Mr. .Vrmstrong asked me what answer Igave respectinghi. r o^t to allow Mr Ihom .nto the secret of our agree.ne>it. I told him that I sLvHy objected to It and that i. he told Thorn or any one el.e, I would not transact business wi'th h m. u. "t I had been dealing directly w.tl. h.m and I did not wish to mix any person with our business Mr. Armstrong tokl me that, as I did not agree, he would say nothing to Mr. Thorn This wa« on the 30th March. On the 14th April, I received this new letter from Mr. ArmstroT!^ : " My dear I'acaud, " MoNTRKAL, April 14th, 189] . " R.nk in T 'f ^^^'"^^^ ^^'"^- Mr- Thom, who was arranging matters with the Ontario Bank u loronto, woij^d have gone through with me to Quebec to-morrow morning bvu we will now await further advices. I hope there will be no great delay, for I am Sid o imfimir«^i^>'fiil»m»H$mKmimmmt> Ernest. Pacaud 873 '' '.lamages to the lino by this spring's Ireshets, and the new company wish to get to work once. Please wire mo as soon as you know Mr. Robidoux will be down. at " In haste, " Yours, " C. N. ARMSTRONG.' I produce this letter as Exhibit No. 80. On the same day, I received from Mr. C. N. Armstrong the followin- despatch : " MoNTREAi,, April 14th, 1891. " Thorn in Toronto seeing Ontario Bank. Have wired him. Gin probably go down to- " morrow night. Will wire later. ^ '■ n ■v C. N. ARMSTRONG.'^ Sorel I produce this despatch as Exhibit No. 81. On the 16th April, I received this other despatch from C. N. Armstrong, dated from " SoREL, April 16th, 1891. ' Thorn went Quebec this morning. Will go down with Riopel to-morrow. " C. N. ARMSTRONG." I produce this despatch as Exhibit No. 82. I think that Mr. Armstrong came to Quebec at that date. I produce these despatches so as to better trace the date of the negotiations which were held when Mr. Armstrontr or Mr. Thom came to Quebec. - They first came on the 30th of March. Mr. Thom came to see Mr. Garneau and Mr Ross and the mmisters who were here, but Mr. Armstrong,! think, did not come to continue the negotiations until about the 17th April, that is to say, on the return of the Hon Messn, Kobidoux and Langelier, who had gone to visit institutions :n the United States From the 17th to the 23rd April I, at Mr. Armstrong's request, took all possible steps to successfully conduct his business. I saw the Hon. Mr. Charles L u.goiior an-l the Hon Mr Duhamel specially, because I was better able to see them every d.v, and then becui'se T was more familiar with theni ; being younger than myself, I wa« more inclined to soo them than go and see the older ministers whom I did not moot daily a. I did Mr. Duh.m.l and M,.Cha8.Langel.er.Idid all I could to convince them of the importance of making the arrangement to accept Mr. Thom's proposal on behalf of the Cooper syndicate. I represented these gentlemen that Mr. Mercier, on a visit ho h.d made to his elector., after ho etc tion had promised at all the public nu.-tiv^s, that the workmen who had worked on he -construction of the road, who were unpaid and who h ul boen w.utin, several months would be paid and that the railway would be built, that was a kind of promise upon the fulfilment ot which depended, in my opinion, Mr. Mercior's popularity in the Gasp,? region That IS what I insisted on to the ministers, telling them that it was extremelv important that the construction of the road should be completed, and the disastrou/cmdi ion in which the road then was, put an end to. ^oiumion in 874 Ernest PucauU I al80 helped Mr. Armstrong to answer all the objections which were everv day nuule during tlic negotiations. " I also remember having written to t he H..n. Mr. Garneau, telling hun that the situation was very serious, that Mr. Thorn whs .liscouragod by the- slowness of the negotiations and threatene. to return, that the lirst co.npnny having stranded in its etlbrt to build th. road, and that Mr. Macdonaki, a responsible contractor, not having been willing to undertake it, if this third syndicate disappeared, it waa certain that the ro.d would never be built; that protrtcd' and which were abandoned would be destroyed by snow, not being .•« iJ'^'i^u '^^'^ '" *^f '""''' ^ ''™^'' *'*"" *° '••^Pr^'sent to him the importance of accept- ing Mr. Thorn's proposal. About the same time, perhaps it was the next day, I went to Mr. Garneau's, and I verbally repeated to Mr. Oameau the same representations which I had made in my letter. M^. Garneau gave me as the sole objection, that the matter was too important for him, who only replaced Mr Mercier. .o undertake to settle it. He said to me : -It is true that Mr. Mercier will not be here before two or three months. !,ut in any case, why not await Mr. Mercier's return ? It concerns him ,t is in his county, will he be satisfied with that syndicate ? Finally, I prefer awaiting Mr. Mercier's return." , I said to Mr Garneau : "If you have the sliRhtestdoubt in the matter, telegraph to Mr. Mercier yourself, and you will see that Mr. Mercier will say that if the syndicate is a respon, sible syndicate according to your opinion, then you must not hesitate with them, provided jou get r.,m this syndicate all requisite security." Mr. Garneau said to me : -rhat is all right I will attend to it._ Do not let Mr. Tho.n go away." I return.-d and told this to Mr. .Vnn- tS's." '° ''^' ""'^ '"'P ^'- '^'""" *™'" '''°'"*'' '^'''^^' ^^"' ^" «""ti»"« the nego- rnJ,,T'"rTJ''^ ^'- ^""**'-«"S <''"'>v, helping him to answer objo.- made bv the S; ,. r'f ^r ''"! ''^^■^™' o^'i^'^tio""- Tl.ey said first, that Mr. Tho.n, m produJing a cert, hcate from the secretary of the Baie des Chaleurs Company, cer. if> ing as to the mun Wr of .hares, and the names ot ,he holder, of the shares, that this certificate was not sufficient. fV.l Vri!""'" \^.'^."7">7l^«'-'I«huw..d them the clauseufthe law which states that b,.f.,re e Imnn, v^ r ^^\t '^'^^^'>«'''^^' '^Vl^^'"^ ''^ *« ""' ne..ess.ry to produce all the hooks of the thX' •^^°'''" *^!,7;.'-^;,V ^«'»''J'«'' t»'at, and that shouM be no more necessar . before the Department of Public Works than before tlie Courts of Justice. nonv^"l'*''"'r?l''''"r" 7'"'? Y"' "'-''''" '"''^^' ^"^ '^""^ ^^' ^">"P'^"y had nut asked for the nv coT; t '^r-r "';I- ' '''" "?'"' ^''- ^"""''""•''' *" ---- • ^° ^l-t- ^hat the compa- ny con d not ask It, tor the very good reason that it did not belong to it, that it was well understood that the intention of the Legislature never was to gn.nc the sub dy to the company thMton the contrary it wished to cancel its charter, to take away the s.bsdv dZair rT,7' '^-^^^-'^^'•'^"t-'to any person who would undertake to pa 1 e Mr. Thorn, mis qua ity ot representative of different othe- peisons. I then asked him to urge that, and from the moment that he, Mr. Thorn, (to whL the subsidy was gniZd rom the moment that the proposal that he made w.« accepted by the GovernrntlTked or the conversion of the subsidy, that that was the only authority able to asl J^ the con^ ^ ei^ion from the Government. I aske.l them to urge these reasons in answer to th ol^ec lon Ernest Pacaud 375 It was also pretended another dny that Mr. Thorn had not sufficiently showed to the department that he really ropresentcd Mr. CoDper, Mr. Dawes, and the other gentlemen who were mentioned by Mr. Thon). Then I told Mr. Thorn : "Get the-e gentlemen to come here, if Mr. Garneau wishes to see them personally, or else write to Mr. Cooper, that he get a joint letter or separate letters from all these gentlemen, let them write directly to Mr. Gar- neau " I understand that is what was done. The negotiations were daily carried on hy us in that way up to the Order in Council of the 23rd April. The negotiations were afterwards continued for the preparation of the letters of credit during the interval between the ii3rd and the 28th. After the Order in Council was passed, I interested myself for Mr. Armstrong in finding a way to get the letters of credit discounted by the banks. One of the objections also, one of the reasons for the delay, was that there was not money enough in tha Treasury at the time to j)ay all the claims, the ($175,000) one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars for Mr. Armstrong and the claims of the workmen, forty to fifty thousand dollars to pay workmen who had worked on the construction of the road. Then I got Mr. Armstrong to tell Mr. Thom and the others not to mind about that, not to mind that there were not all tlie funds required, but that he, Mr. Armstrong, would be ready to accept a letter of credit in payment, and tliat he would get the funds required from the Union Bank, That is why I had dealings with Mr. Webb. I eiidetvored to induce the Union Bank to take the ($175,000) one hundred and seventy-live thousand dollai's. He had agreed at first; then Mr. Webb tr id me that the bank could not take the ($175,000) one hundred and seventy-live thousand dollars. 1 then went with him to the Banque Nationale to get theBanque Naiionale to take seventy -five thousand dollars and that the Union Bank would take the hundred thousand. The Bnnque Nationale agreed. Thiit is why I asked Mr. Webb to go to the department and ask in place of a letter of credit for ($175,000) one hundred and seventy-tive thousand diillars, two letters of credit, one for ($75,000) seventy-live thousand dollars in favor of the Banque Nationale, and one of ($100,000) one humlri'd thousand dollars in favor of the I'nion Bank. I understand that is what was done. In the nftei-noon of the twenty-ei};hth, I did not go to the Parliament House while the Ministers were there. 1 drove up about four or half-past four o'clock, and I met Mr. Webb, the c:i8hier of the Union Bank, and I asked him if he had got the letter of credit ; he said yes, that he had it in his pocket. Then I told him that I would see him the next morning on the matter. • The next morning, Mr. Armstrong came to my office and t-eAA to me : " Well, now the whole matter is settled, I have only now to pay you what I owe you." I said : " Very well. If it is the same thing to you, Mr. Armstrong, instead of a cheque for ($100,000) one hundre , thousand dollars, givo me five cheques of ($20,000) twenty thousand dollars." He said : " Very well, it is quite the same." He also said : " Only I will go for Mr. Langelier." I said : " Do you know where he is ? " He said : " I saw him in a waggon with his son at the door of the Banque Nationale : I will go and look for him at once." In the meantime, I sent ray secretary for blank Union Bank cheques and I put them on the table. Mr. Armstrong returned with Mr. Langelier, and he said to Mr. Langelier : " Will it be the same thing for you to give me five cheques of ($2«^ro"g told me he was in a hurry, that he wa« l.-aving ^^^t^7'\ "" f "* '"'■'? "'"" '""'^ happened-he was'leavin, for Montr 5 c o2^ fh f ^,;!r ?'• ^ ''""' ^''^ ^'■- ^^""«^"^'' ^"'^ M--- Armstrong to the door. Before closing the door, Mr. Armstrong returned to my ..ftice and, indicating nfv secretary I under mysocretarj Ml. E, ge; he then asked me to follow him. I went into the passage outside of s li : r -^-^r ' " T^ *' '"" ^'"^""- ^""''^ '''''"' *" ""^-i p»* ^^«- •" -y pocket- lelimj, le \on see what sort oJ a man I nm, I know how t.. keep mv word " I !ni,i " t Trl^ ot'badrMi ^""fr"' "'.T'"""'"^ ^° '-' ^^^-^- ' th-Xr hands wi'tt Mr' Armstiong, bade hun gootl day, and he went away. fo„nd?w?I''' '^™«*'-«"S^««S""^-Ie-'^«'"i"ed the papers that he had given me, and I found that they were the t^.ve cheques which l,e previously endorsed on my desk. fh. ^^ ^"l "^ ' *'^" remember, on the very same day I went to the Union Bank and placea r?T lu ^^^^ *^°'' ^"'"♦'time and I withdrew them to get .hem discounted oha hat withdrew to discount at the Banque du Peuple on the sixth of May, alt wS Z) .enthofMay ; Ihadathird which I endeavored to discount at the Banque du Peuple inn^ Wh • " i^rir" T''""'^' ' '^^'* **• '^"•^ "^«» *h« ^«^t- «f "edit for ?$1 W) one SocS^^^ *" ^^- ^^^^' -'^h ^'^e two oZs of a f roSMntv ?!! '"' "?", "n ""''' '^'^^ ^ "^'^^'^ ^^- ^^'"PP^ Valli^re if he would endorse a (» 0,000) twenty thousan.l dollar note at the Banque du Peuple, telling him that I would give h,m as security a cheque signed by Mr. Chrysost6me Langeier in Sis qualitv of com- ZZZeaVylllZ 1 ^^;-^7-r-«-d endorsed by Mr. Armstrong'lS '1 que was secured by a 1. tter ot credit which was deposited in the Union Bank and which would he paid on the tenth o July. I went with Mr. Valli^re to Mr. Dumoulin, to thj Banque du Peuple, and hen we asked Mr. Dumoulin if he would discou,^ my note for ($20 000) twenty «K,U8and dollai., endorsed by Mr. Vallifere, telling him at the same time that Mr vI^U re would receive as secunty for his endorsation a cheque which I intended to givThim Mr Dumoulin said yes. Then Mr. Vallifero and I left. Mr w '^kT, '''^!^' ''''*'^'-"°""'.''^l'0»t four o'clock. We left to go to the Union Bank. I asked Valli^re i "v. "7 ''^^'',''"" '' ''"" "" "^ '''''' ^^'^"---'^ »" ^^ Va'li^re, telinrMr d'ar. S ouomr) '" h\ 1 ' ':"" '^' """' '"' ''''' ^""^ «*■ °'- hundred thousand ih^Z^TT\ ;"•.*'.'■ ""^"' '^'' ""'"^ ^'^^ P"'*^' '^^ ^^«»'<' W- the cheque attached to eenci it to Mr. v alliere that very evening. The next morning Mr. ValliSro came and told me that he received Mr. Webb's letter Then we went to the Banque du Peuple. Mr. Valli^re said to Mr. Dumoulin : •' I have all he ecuiity I want ; I am now ready to endo.se Mr. Pacaud's note ; be good enough tocis ount Ernest Pacaud 877 ousand dol. : ofthccon- f>wn at ray ig them to nclorsed the rvas li-aving r Montreal oor. Before ry.lunder- [)resence of ^ ontHide of y pocket— I Ml id. " r s with Mr. me, and I >nd placed I at day. I inted, one 'f ($20,000) the fnur- lu Peuple 0,000) one others of thousand Id endorse I I would ^ of com- h cheque ich would anque du )) twenty . Valli^re him. Mr. :. I asked lling Mr. honsand. iHched to id would /8 letter, 'e all the discount it and place ihe amount to his credit. This whs done, the amount was placed to my credit. Exhibit Nria^"^ ""**" *°' ^""^"^^ thousand dollars ($20,000), at the Banque du Peuple as *, u^" /^""i!".'-! "A^ ^^"'"^ ^^^ •'"'"^ **^'"e was done at the Banciue Nationale. We had asked the bank officiHl ,1 he would under those conditions discount my note endorsed by Mr- Philippe Valli5re. ^ The bank agreed ; we discounted the note and the amount was placed to mv credit less the interest. I i)roduce that note as Exhibit No. 84. Sometime afterwards, that is a long time afterwards, after the letter of credit had been paid I met Mr. Armstrong at the St. Louis Hotel, and there was some (,uestion of the interest on the one hundred thousand dollar. ($100,000), Mr. Armstrong told me that the interest belonged to me, because I had the surplus ov<.rseventy-(ivolhou.sand dollars ($75,000). Then he suid that he would make the .cheque for the live hundred and thirty-four dollars and twenty-hve cents ($584.25), amount of the interest on the one hundred th.msand dollars, and I wished to go and get the cheque about twelve or half-past twelve at the St. Louis Hotel, as he was going at a quarter past one by the Pacific train. I did not go Mr Arm- strong came to my house and brought me the .heque for five hundred and thirty-four dollars and twenty-hve cents ($534.25) endorsed by him for the interest. I presented the cheque to the Union Bank and I received the amount. M ^^^r^^°T''T'H' ''"°'' "'^' ""''^ '■'^'P^''* *° **^« q"^«^>°" of tl^e amount which Messrs. Macdonald and Came.on might have promised me, I declare in the most positive manner that there never was between Mr. Macdonald, Mr. Cameron and myself a question of any amount the matter was not even referred to. I wish to mention another circumstance to corroborate this declaration. In the beginning of September last, when I -va^in London, I received a letter from Mr. Hec or Cameron, who was in London, dated the elev^enth September. He hnd come to the hotel, I had gone out, and he left me this note, giving me his address, his hotel, and asking me to go and see him; that he was present at the inquiry made before the Senate in the Baie des ChaleurB matte, and that he was very anxious to meet mo. I went to meet him at his hotel as he asked me ,n his letter and he fold me all the news, he told me all that had passed at the Senate enquiry. Thereupon I said to Mr. Cameron : " But I said, our friend Macdonald has stabbed me." He said : " How is that ? " I said to him : •' I saw, in paper, here in the r»««Mhat Mr Macdonald had sworn that it was agreed to pay me ($50,000) fifty' thousand dollars." I said to him : "Mr. Cameron, you know well that there never was a question of fixing any amour. , neither with you nor with Macdonald ; you know it perfectly well." But he said : Certainly I know it; Macdonald never said that."He said to me -Macdonald declared that he had placed in bis estimate a sum of ($50,000) fifty thousand dollars, but he never pretended that he had spoken to you about it. or that it had been a question between vou." si ow ZThTr" wi '"^ ^° ""f" '"' '" '^'^ ^'^""^"'" ^Sency, to Sir Charles Tupper, to shovv me the n«^e,, which reported Mr. Macdonald'sdepc^ition. to show me that when he question had been put to Mr, Macdonald : " Had you to justify your placing ($50,000) fifty thousan. dollars m your est mates as having to be paid to Mr. Pacaud other reasons than your past experience ? " he had answered no. Then Mr. Cameron said : '• You see well that here could, .t have been question of that between you, as he positively swe.rs that he Had only his past e.xperience to go by in that estimate." 378 Ernest Pacautl TinJT 1 u ?r ^'""''"" '■ " '^''^>' ^'^ '■'"•'"'"« '^ I^«J'^' Commission. I see in tlie in whi , "• J^'oufnant-Governor Anger., whid. has just been placc.l before tbe S.n.te' haT vo w n',! '' "T' '"" J'"" "?P°'"t'"«"t "'• " Royal Commission. I hope, Mr. Cameron, that you ,vill do me that much ,,u-iice if that fact is ever denied." He said : •' I am ready to irrv .• ' '^^. ""'''"' " '•"'"""■''«''" '•''i''^''*'-^ or otherwise, and to afHrm that there never thTt H ir^ " '""""'" ^''''''" •'■"" ""'^ ">^' ""^' "''^^ ^^'•- Macdonald told me himself mat there never was any question of amount between you and him " Mr Hrt 'V? ™"''' *'"' '^"■'^ ,™*'""- ^'' "'''" ^"'^ **">■ ""^'"'« «f P""ing the question to Mr Hectoi Cameron, in accordance with the promise he made me, I would be verv glad. hk hotTfW M V'""' '"'IJ' ^'"^ "" '^'^ ^"'"^^'^y- *''^ fourteenth, in the morning, in nis hotel, that Mr. Cameron told me this. I produce as Exhibit No. 86, the letter dated the twlfth September (1891), eighteen hunderd and nmety-one, which Mr. Hector Cameron wrote to me By Hon. Mr. Jtcstice JettS :— Q. Have you anything else you wish to add ? T rj\ V'T '" " ^""^ '*''"' ™"'"®' ''^^'^' ^"^^ "^* «="'"« in this part of my evidence. I beliexv 1 reached the pomt ot accounting for the one hundred thousand dollars ($100 000) H- Keep to the order you intended to follow one ^und^edliuZd'' oSai''"' '^ """"""'' """ '" ^^P"^'" ^'^^^ ' ''' ^'^^ *^« (*l«-'''^'«) l^on. Mr. Justice Jetti :— statem':.!*'"'f "* requested yesterdav. and I think that his request i. reasonable, that these statements of account be not con.sidercd as produced until he has given his evidence In tte mean .me we thmk that all the counsel .hould have connnunicatlon therere .1 ; hut atS wh happened veeterdny, I think that it would he a protection against certain i di Itio. s Int ^ , K " '°"'''"' "'"'"' ^^'^'^'"^"ts of account ^ produced. Naturally the doe ! ments w.ll become pid.lic, but it is well that they shoul.l become public only wL the muticTi'^b''^'^''""," "'"T'^'^"'^' *'""• "^"^' °- °^^'- oounse/dec'est'tak cm Z tl7: """f^r "" '"'' ""'■•^ ^ -^^ "'^""^'^ '^^' he will not disclose the con I until they have really become the property of the Commission. contents BANaUE NATIONALE. bv mtnlr'^"'" '^^^^^»^''i'^^«- 86' «'«^' ^^ explanatory statement showing the application by me „, the various amo.mts which I drew on the Ban,,ueNationale, and second^ a "tl? t. rr'";j''"?^.^'''"^''' '''''''^""''^' °^'-^"''^^' ■'>• ^^e ca^hler of that bank '^' Item 86-1 reads as tollow8:-May 14, that is to say, date of the issue 15 (date of f^« acceptance), cheque produced; to pay my note .lue, to the order of M.Lreield^ nL oTfi ^- fv?"^""[ '^"^ ""■ ^- ^- ^''''''''- ''''^' i'^-" ""-"l^^r 8(5-1 is repre' ;'; v a note 01 five thousand dollars ($.5,000), signed by me. endorsed bv the HonoumUe Mr Mercier, the Honourable Charles Langelier, the Honourable C. A. P Pelieter a d^e nZZTJ ?r "^'""'"f ' ''''' *'^ '^'■*«^""> ^P"'- ^'^h*-" hundred ndn net V- on the R payable one month alter date. This item also includes the cheque which I drew on the Banquo Nationale to pay that note. As there are other notes of the same kind, I think it would be as well at once to ^iv« the explanation I have to give for the existence of that note. ^ Ernest Pacaud 379 see in the tlieSeimte, :. Cameron, m really to there never tne hini-jolf luestion to very glad, lorning. in I, eighteen I lielievo ($iaii,(HiO) that these se. In the but, after liscretions the docti- witli the ake com- i contents plication y, a state- te of the endorsed ted by a il)lo Mr. and the nefy-nne h I drew ! to give hab rof .10 .rto It t , .n ; f ' f T 'T '" *^" '"'^' '■'"'' '^"'' '■'•''-^"''^^ *»« I had been in the imoH 01 doing, to get tliem t.. subscribe for tlie organization uf the r.urK- t m,.^ „ i- i I.™ m-la ,c,«U a, follow. ;_M.j. 1,5. A, ,i „,«mo. oomwcle.l »ith account mnnb, , ; doll.™!' M? "SI™ fold'l'ThT!"' '" "'«""«=»'>• ""'• "" («»."») twenty thousand 580 Ernest Pacaud dollars to send to Mr. Mercier, M. Mt-cier; left me (#o,(K)0) five thousand dollan. belore leaving;, and he ngw ii>k-< mo to send him tlie.se («.i,0()i)) five ihousmd dollars by a draft on the Credit Lyonnais at Palis; you will then give me a draft for (*,3,(KX)) five thousand dolliirs; your draft will not c.ino back from Paris before a month, so that you will in fact have given me («5,(»U0) fivb th.-usand ; I will keep Mr. Meioier's («.),OilO) five thous.nd dollars ; yourdraft not coming back before the first of next month, you will be able to make me this advance ..f {r),-do (that is to say, memorandum in connection w th accountnumberr)),($2.J0) two hundred and fifty dollars, as being item 87-7. That item consists in a draft for ($250) two hundred and fifty dollars drawn on me bv Mr. C. Beau- Ernest Pamud 881 olliirs bel'ore y a draft on ve tliousand will in ftict, Mnil dollars ; to inako ino igliteenth of («10,iK)0) ten e. Ontliese and francs, I ier in Paris hy a cheque received the land diillars [r. Mercier's I thought of i I would be ly books to n Mr. Mer- )nly on my e money he It out about ars which I low if I had md what I Rft with me [ then told ;ps that the isburae the for ($0,000) r. Mercier's f my note." ection w ih That item r. C. Beau- Hoio.i, dated the twenty-eiKhth April, (1801) eighteen hundred and ninety-one, payablo at len (lays from date, and also in a cheque which I gave to retire that draft of (#2.-).ed. To Mr. Gcoftrion, advocate, services re McGreevy enquiry, $.500. I paid these ■. ^ ■ hundred dollars ($500) on account of other expenses because I had undertaken to pay all the expenses incurred in the House of Commons inquiry respecting the Quebec Harbour Woi ks against Sir Hector Langevin ami the Honour- able Thomas McGreevy, Item ^6-12, Cheque product-d. Personal use. $25 Item 86-13. Cheque produced. Payment of two notes of A. F. Carrier, endorsed by me $400. I produce the two notes and I produc! the cheque. I mn.t say that I have f)ften endoised note.-< for Mr. Carrier during the pa^t three or four years, and that Mr Carrier hns always laithtully paid me ; if he did not always pay them direct to the Ban(iue du Peuple he paid them to me when he was able to do so ; in this case I did not ask him f..r the money, I paul the notes, without speaking to hiin about them and even before they became due, because I must si.y that I intended at that time to leave for Europe and I paid a lot of notes before maturity, so as not to. have my signature in .my bank Item 86-14. 1st June. Cheque produced. Deposited in the Banque du Peunle $500 T produce the cheque. ■ f > * Item 86-15. Cheque produced. Charles Langelicr, $555.40. I have an explanation to give concerning this amount deposited to the credit of the 382 Emeu Pacaud Hon. ChnrlcH Lnngolier. and as thnre are several sums, it !» just as well to give the explana- tion n.,w, if Your Honours wish it. Lns? summer or last autumn, I cannot my which. I had a private conversation will, the Hon. Mr. Lan.wlier. in which I indued him to buil.l a new house. Mr. Langelier told me that he mnde from hit* practice as an a.lvocate ahout IKJ.OOO a year as his share ; that he received as minister and nn member «!4.r)0(), which mnde*7,500. Knowitipr Mr. Langelier's manner of living, being very simple i.i his tastes, I said to Mr. Langelior that he spent little over *2,()00 a year, and that he should tnke a.lvanti.Re of this surplus of $i;,(M)0 a year to buy a property or build a house for himself. Mr. Langelior then told me that he was afraid to risk an enterprize that might bring him into serious embar- rassment, that h.. did not think he had sufficient means to build a house, especially such a one as T had spoken of. which would be rather costly. I then told him not to be afraid of the enterprize, that I would take upon myself to advance him all ueces.sary funds ; that if this amount was not large I would never ask him to pay me ba-k, and if it was too much then he eoul.l pay me back by the sale of his property on Brelxeuf street. In order to explain these transactions to the Commission, I must say that I had been in partnership witli Mr. Charles Langelier as proprietors of the Eleeteur for three or four years, and that we had made considerable sacrifices at that time as proprietors to keep it going. When the paper had become prosperous, Mr. Langelier gave up his share to me, he retired from the paper, saying that now that I could carry it on alone, he could willingly give up his share for nothing without asking anything from me. When we had a snmll gathering at Mr. Langelier's house btst year, on his birthday, 1 recalled this act in an address that I presented him on behalf of several of his friends, and in which I mentioned his unselfishness, and that g^'ter four years of con-iderable sacrifices in order to keep up the Eleeteur, not only in editing it, but in putting his own money into it, that he had been sued for the Etedeur's debts, that he had been served with seizures, and all for the Electeur's debts, he gave it up to me without any compensation, and that I considered myself in his debt' It was at this time that I told Mr. Chas. Langelier that as long as I had money, he might consider it his, to think nothing of asking me for money when he needed it, even to build his house, to send me his workmen and I would pay them , which I did. I am anxious to give these explanations, which might seem strange to the public, who do not know the close relations existing between Mr. Langelier and myself for the past twenty years, and for all that periwl I have been accustomed to lend all the money to him that he asked without taking any note ; .and in the same way he gave me money when I needed it. I must also state that I did not be,Mn-paying money to Mr. Langelier in connection with the Bale des Chaleura affair, but last autumn, I deposited different sums, which I can show Your Honour, in my bank book, deposits for small amounts, made at different times for Mr. Chs. Langelier. Item 86-16. Cheque of 9th June to the order of P. B. Damoulin, 1260.00. I produce the cheque. Mr. Dumoulin is the cashier of the Banque du Peuple. Ernest PacauU 883 tlie explana- which, I had build n new about $;5,0«K) inn(l(;#7,.'500. [said to Mr. ntiige of tliis ngelior then ions omhar- '.ially such a be afraid of nds ; that if IS too much In ordor to lershipwith that we had 3 to me, he d willingly had a small an address ntioned his eep up the 1 been sued eur's debts, n his debt , he might io build his iiblic, who last twenty m that he needed it. ction with [ can show (les for Mr, I produce Item 80-17. Cheque of 10th June; clique produce.l. Deposit at the Banque du Penple Item Sli-18. Cheque of Juno Ifith, Armstrong draft ; *l.(HXi.(M) (ono tl„,u8and dollars) Mr. Arnistiong had drawn upon me May 12th lor «J,(KK), at 2 months. Sometime after- wards Mr. ArmstruuK wrote to me that he could not get the S-',(KK) draft, which I had acceivfd, discounted, and asked me at the same time t„ accept two other drafts one at a month trom Juno 15th, the other for June ir.th on demand, tolling me that if I could accept these two drafts, the bank had instructions to return to mo the draft for*JO()0 which I agreed to. I went to the bank, accepted the draft at one month, and paid at once the draft on demand. I produce these three drafts as weil as the che(|ue which paid C. X. Armstrong's dratt of ir)th June at sight. v..n«uo,ig8 Item 80-19. Cheque of June Alth ; cheque produced. Deposit at the Banque du Peunle Item 86-120. Cheque of Juno 2oth ; cheque prodiicd. Eloi Picard, JfilOO Mr Eloi Pienrd is one uf the men employed in repairing my house, is one of my contractors. " Item 86-21. Cheque of July 2nd; cheque produced. J. A. IVsier, advocate, Three J{iver.«. *30. I sent these *30 to Mr. Tessier for revision of the electoral lists. Item 86-22. July 0th. To close my account ; for personal use, $102.20. BANQUE DU PEUPLE. I now produce as Exhibit No. 88, the explanatory statement of my account with the Banque .lu Peuple. and I also produce as Exhibit No. 88a, attached to this first statement a conhrmatory statement of my account, furnished by the cashier. ' 1891, 6th May. Net proceeds of a bill discounted this day, $19,720. Item 88-1. Oih May ; cheque produced. To pay a note signed by me on the "5th Fe bruary, endorsed by Messrs Mercier, Langelier, Pelletier and others, 15,000. The same explanation that I gave just now about the other note for $5,000 applies to this. I produce the note dated Feb. 28th, payable at two months, signed by me and endorsed by the Hon. Honors IMercier. Hon. Franyois Langelier and Hon. Chs. Langelier Hon CAP Pelletier. I also produce the cheque drawn by me on the Banque du Peuple to pay the 88-2. 6th May ; cheque produced ; $1,000. To Mr. Vallifere for endorsing a note of $20,000, $500. Balance $500, pei-sonal use I paid Mr. Valliere 8500 for endorsing each of the two notes. 88-3. (ith M;iy, cheque produced. To pay C. Langelier's note endorsed by Mr Tarte 12,(100; the balance paid the Carrel note, $150; $2,150. I produce the cheque for" $2 15o' signed by Mr. Cbs. Langelier, dated the 2nd March, 1891, payable two months from date for ?2,()00. to the order of J. Israel Tarte, endorsed by J. Israel Tarte and myself I also nrrv duce a note of Feb. 5th (1891), signed by Jas. Carrel at three months, to my order and endorsed by me. This note lor $2,000, was brought to me by Mr. Langelier and Mr. Tarte in con nection with the Montmorency election. As I was not in a position to help them at the time in the election, I asked for this note : I took this note and discounted it ; I put the amount to my credit at the Banque du Peuple and advanced them what they wanted for the Mont morency Federal election. "ioni,- 88-4. 8th May ; cheque produced. To pay A. Carrier's note, UW. I produce the 884 Ernest Pacavd note and the cheque which paid it. The explanation I gave concerning the other note Applies to tliis. 88-5. 9th May, cheque mislaid. Paid to Francois Parent for Ch. Langelier, 1918.32. Mr. F. Parent is the contractor who built Mr. Ch. Langelier's house. The explanation I gave Above about Mr. Langelier applies to this item. 88-6. 9th May ; cheque produced. Deposit at C. Langelier credit at the Savings' Depart- ment of the Union Bank, Upj)er Town, $2()0. 8S-6a. By memorandum in connection with account No. 5 produced as Exhibit No. 87. This will be explained when I am explaining statement No. 5 produced as Exhibit No. 87. 88-7. 9th May ; receipt produced. Paid to Demers & Fr^re for printing, $1,000. 1 produce the receipt and also the account. 88-8. 8th May ; cheque produced. Pnid U> Joa Martin, election i^arvices, %2o. 88 9. 9th May ; cheque produced. Pei-sonal use, 140. 88-10. nth May ; cheque produced. To pay Mr. Tatte's note, endorsed by Hon. F. Langelier and by myself. I produce the note and the cheque which paid it. In connection with tiiia note, aa I mentioned just now, I toll Mr. Tarte froia the beginning thtit 1 would undertake to pay all the expenses of his inquiry before the committee of the House of Commons, the Committee of Privilege and Elections; hence I paid $500 to Mr. Geoffrion ; also, the $1,000 and other sums named in connection with this. 88-11. 9th May, cheque produced; expenses owed to the Hon. George Irvine ; $15C. 88-12. Sth May, cheque produced ; to Wm. Learmonth ; purchase of a type-writer $115. 88-12a, Memorandum in connection with account No. 5; $250. 88-13. 5th May, cheque produced. ; sum for Mr. Patenaude ; personal matter ; $20. 88-14. nth May, cheque produced ; personal use ; $50. 88-15. Sth May, cheque produced ; personal account; Col. Rhodes ; $10. 88-10. nth May. cheque produced ; to pay Mr. Tarte's note in the McGreevy inquiry ; $400. I produce the note for $400, as well as the cheque attached. 88-16a. nth May, paid for Mr. Cha. Langelier; subscription to the Fortress Hotel ; $500. Memorandum in connection with account No. 5 ; $500. 88-17. nth May, cheque produced ; paid G. M. Deschene's note; $150. I produce the note as well aa the cheque whose proceeds paid the note. What I said about Mr. Achille Carrier applies equally to Mr. Desohene^. Mr. Doachenes is my personal friend, he is member for rislet ; for 3 or 4 years I have frequently endorsed his notes and ho has always paia .hem regularly ; this induced me to go on. This was a renewal ; Mr. Deschenes gave me the note last autumn. I mention this to show that this was previous to the Baie des Cha. leurs affair. 88-18. 9th May, cheqtie prxluced ; paid Pierre Richard, grocer, $45.54; personal matter 88-18a. Memorandum in connection with account No. 25, $19. 88-19. 14th May, cheque produced ; subcription to Mr. Desaulniers of the National, $100. Emesl Pacaud ^Jtry."' ""*■■ *""" f™'"-'^ ■■'"Po'^o" !-«»-», for li.,ra,^^^;i~r^ 88-24. I4th M»,, ch,„ue produce.] pS ^Sltun' '/,4 f ' '""°'^' "■""«■ which m,ke. Ihe tan. .^aUunWe, toul. B.lunce lor my pconai use, »100, S»?ir*fh'« "'"'',"'" °""""">« ">« •""O""! No. 5, tlO. p.x>uci;'';t »i';:;;ry'S'ir'^ "*" "'■ ""■ ""-"■->■ p™p«y, *7,oo«, „h.,„e endolXr """ = "^"'^» f-'-«^ ^ P-'^ ""» or.. B. P„.i„ .„ M. He.,,.. o,.„ I hav,fc„.,„.cd „„.e,, ..0 ..«ou„.,tf;;;e pLorolIll'"''"''''" "^ " '" "■«"" % Hon. Mr. Justice Jem : Q. That is not money disbursed by you ? A. Xo, it appears in the columu *iqifw- tv,„» r *i. cheque for $200 w,« given for thricounfanda^^^^^^^^ "^'^""^'^ f«'- *^'O0; the 8S-3I la. a discount. a'^count and appears opposite the item. 88-306. is a discount. " Ottawa, March lotli AUGU8TE CHOQUETTE. was made. " ^"'^ ^ *'"° P^o^uoe the, cheque by which deposit 25 886 Ernest Pacaud 88-34. 19th May, cheque produced ; personal use $50. 88-.3o. 19th May ; cheque produced ; to my secretory Auguste Edge $10, endorsed by him. 88-E6. 19th May ; cheque produced ; Beautey merchant, $425 ; personal affair. 88-37. 8th May; cheque produced ; to Rnoul Rinfret, $50. The cheque is drawn to the order of Dr. Trudel jr. $50 but the receipt was sent me by Mr. R. Rin.ret who used the sum for his expenses in looking after the revision of the electoral lists in the county of Cham- plain. I produce the cheque. 88-38. lltth May ; cheque produced ; Refund to my office $15.35. This is a cheque to Belleau and Company's order, and eudorseil ; it i.s for different expenses. I nuist proceed to explain this sum because there will be several other cheques of the same description. I often sent my coachman to be ()aid at the otticc. This cumot be entered in the office books of raypartnership with Mr. Belleau ; a separate account is made which I pay from time to time. 88-38 n. Amount withdrawn from the bank and placed in another bank ; transfer from tlie Banque Nationale ; this appears in tlu- other accounts. 88-38 h. Deposit ; transfer from the Banque Nationale, $1000. 88-39. 28th May ; cheque produced ; personal use, !*'5.50. 88-40. 26th May ; cheque produced ; to Notary Sirois for my house, $43,92. 1 produce the cheque to Mr. Sirois' order, endorsetl by Mr. Sirois. 88-41. 29th May ; cheque produced ; J. B. Poulin, Mr. Ch. Langelier ; $17, 60. 88-41 a. 1st .Tune ; deposit ; transfer from the Banque Nationale ; $500. 8842. Ist .Tune : cheque produced ; personal use ; $300. 88-43. 1st June ; cheque produced ; lent to Mr. Lemieux, $100. This is a cheque for $100 to the order of Mr. Ed. Garneau who is treasurer of the Union Club. I did my best to induce Mr. Lemieux to become a member of the Union Club ; he consented, provided that I would p;iy his subscription to be deducted from what I owed him for legal expen^es. Mr. Lemieux is my lawyer in two important cases which he pleaded himself at the last sitting of the Court of A.ppeals. Lafrance against Jlr. Langeli-r and myself for libel in the Eledeur. I had given him nothing for it. I told him I would pay lys subscription, as so much towards his account for legal expenses. This is how I came to pay his subscription to the Club. Bt/ Hon. Mr. Justice Jette : — A. Is this Mr. Lemieux, the member ? A. Yes, Your Honour. 88-44. 4th .Tune ; cheque produced ; personal use, $100. 88-45, 4th June ; cheque produced ; J. M. Deschenes ; $30. I gave this $30 to Mr. Des- chenesforgoirrrtoChicoutimi to produce the deposit for the counter-petition against Sir Adolphe Caron. 88-46. 4th June ; cheque produced. Great North Western Telegraph Co., $58.63 ; personal account. 88-46a. Memorandum in connection with account No. 5 ; $119.31. 88-.57. 4th .Tune ; cheque produced, personal use ; $30. 88-47a. Memorandum in connection with account No. 5 ; $28.35. 8.S-48. Cth May ; cheque produced; personal use ; $30. 88-49. 6th May; cheque produced; Pierre Richard, grocer; $35.45; peraonal account, 88-50. 8th June; cheque produced : personal account, $30. Ernest Pacaud 387 ^'^■^^- 1^'h June; cheque produxjed; A MarcottP Sqn \T. AT .. • . 88-02. 9th. )une. cheque produced;!., p. Siroi- $m Fnrr>,..f • , ^ ''*'J"st now. 88-r,2a. A deposit of 1204.25. ""'"'" *^33. For ptolessional services as notary. 8S-5;5. 5th June ; cheque produced ; Colonial House ; $43 22 ^^J8.o4.5th June; cheque produced; Thos. Hethrington. baker ; personal account; perCs^h^r;5r:rh:thr;ot;'^:i!^ /^,«-r - -^ -'- ployed by Belieau Sc Co., at a lixe.l s.ln.v K f k ^ \, ^'- ^'"■'^^- ^^'^ ^arthe is ein- I pay hi,n £100 a year. M.- i"tL. wo'u'ld ! t ^it t "• "'''"'•'^ ^'^''^ '^•"" «^"-" '^ ^ BarthethatlwouldmyseUpa^imredfe^ '^'^ -'-^•'- I ^old Mr.' 88-55 „. 10th June, deposit ; trans.br to the Banque Rationale. «500. SS-.).-} 6. loth June ; deposit, $500 88-08. 3rd June, cheque produced; J. C. More $2-, Th;= ; u • . gave n,e. which I sent to the treasurer of the cS' ft. ! ,^ ^^^scnption Mr. Rae to Major Short and cJergant Wallick. IreclveJu s ^b^cHrf" '7 '^'^''"^ " '""""™'^»t Mr. Mbre. received tins subscription and sent it to the treasurer, 88-59. 6th June, cheque produced- Dr 4 v.,m'., *i- ,- political but medical articles ' ' ^^'^ ' ^""^ '"''''^'^^ '» the £fecte«r. not 88-60. 17th J^ne, cheque produced, Belieau and Co $28 7S Tho suffices. """ ^■' ^^s.7ii. The same explanation .hi. Z\ UMo'l'^ronXr ""' '■ "■ """'"""■ •"^- «'■ «<>««."■ i. . «r«r of 88-64. 22nd June, cheque produced ; F. X Perr,inlf Sin q u • • tration in memory of the patriots of 1837. ' ' Subscription for the demons- I owed his father a sum of $200, and I gave te son „n!f" V ll^'' ^''■^'"" *^^ '"^'"ber. I gave him $50 on account and made aSe note for $ 50 J^^^^^^^ ^""T ^^« ^^^^ f^" J- I paid. I owed this sum to his father a farmer of n! ' ?. ^^'^ '' "'^ *1'^« "«*« ^^ich .lection contestation, and I ought trhlXi^lTt'^or'^' ^"^"■'^'^^^ ^^ ^ - 88-66. 22nd June ; cheque produced. Wyse & Co. $3.50. personal account. 1" 888 Ermst Pacavd 88-67. 2r)th Juno ; cheqiio produced. Personal use, 150. 88-68. 23rd June; cheque producod. 0. Labrec.,,>e. .W2..-,0, personal Hccount. this Mr 88-69 24th June ; cheque produoo.l. W. Jacq«e«, $29.15, personal account. Mr. Jacques IS a shop-keeper here. ' 88-70. 26th June ; note Eli.w Mailloux, $50. This is a note of Mr. Mailloux which I had endoised, paid, find retired. fj-l' f^'V""*^; '''^e.iue produced. H. Beautey. .*40 ; private account. - 88-- 2. 2^,d June : cheque prod.Uied. Antuine TurReon, *6 90 ; personal account. 88-/2a. Deposit; tranfler froij| tlio Banque Natiunalo, $.500. 8S-73. 22ik1 June; cheque prmluced. Personal use, $.50 m1"S'w""'' 'i''^^''^ P'-'^^"'^^"'- I'runeauandKirouac. P.rsouHl account, $18.48. 88-/0. 23rd June; cheque produced. Ulric Barthe, $25. 88-76. 3()th June ; cheque i>roduceil. Pergonal use, $50. 8S-77. 30th ,Tune ; cheque produced. J. D. Chartrand. $50. Mr. Chartrand is LientP 88-78. 27th June ; cheque produced. A. Lavigne, $37 '.'5 88-79 2nd July ; cheque produced. Apolinaire Curnvea.., $20; in connection with the revision ot the electoral listi-. "im me 88-^0. Mr. Frank Carrell, 30th June, $10 ; personal accunt. 38-81. 30th June; cheque produced. A J \faYhni>i t r^^ «.)^ m i au>s.> o:;m, I 1 *^ ,"^* 7 •*•"'• *''*^""'" « to., $2<.o0 ; personal account. :«1;' f*\-'""^' cheque produced. Thomas Donohue, $37.99 ; personal affa-r. 88-83. nd July; cheque produced. Joseph Roy, $25; in connection with the revision of the electoral lists ni Quebec County. lewsion 88-i<3a. Memoiaiiduni in connection with account No 5 $11 84 «tS" pk"^ ■^"'^' ' 1'"''",' P'-" '"ced. Hon. G. Irvine. $500, professional s.-rvices. 88-85. Cheque product^ Dralt C. A. Geoffrion, 3rd July ; $50.'. I produce the draft and the cheque which pnid It This WHS to pay the expenses of arranging the contestation of the elections of Vaudreuil, I think, and of I'Assoniption. "esiacion ox 88-86. 2nd July ; cheque produced. Ovide Picard, $150. Mr. Ovide Picard is one of the contractors of my house. 8S-87. 2nd July ; cheque prmluced. Miss Charbonneau, $37 ; a seamstress. 88-88. 30th June ; cheque i.r.nluoed. P. Poulin & Co., $59 ; personal account 88-89. 2nd July ; cheque produced. Kiui Picard, $150. I have nlreadv state, 1 that Mr Eloi Picard, as well as Mr. Ovide Picard, were workmen employed at my house 88-90. 6th July ; account produced. Pierre Richard, $23.22 ; personal account list. tL^omll^-o/SSr '^' *''' '" ^"-^^^ -'^^^ *^« -vision of the electoral 88-92. 3id July ; cheque produced. Frank Carrell, $10 ; personal account empJ^v^es^^'*" "^""' ' °'"'^"' P'"'^"""'^- ^- ^' ''«"^*i«'-> ^^O. A sum lent to one of my 88-94. 2nd July; cheque produced. Loui* J. Morin, $20 ; in connection with th« revision ofelectoral lists in Quebec Centre. . * - m connection niih the 88-95. 25th June ; cheque produced. J. 0. Rainville, $75 ; personal matter. 88-95o. Memorandum, in connection with account No. 5, $15.92. ^^Wr* It. this Mr. in cliurch. Mr. Jacques diicli I had •lint. Lint, 118.48. I is Lieute- he Eledeur, 1 with the iccount. •r. e revision ; draft and estation of one of the I that Mr. t. electoral 16 of my iviih the Ernext Pacawf 38!^ reviSo.^.S^i^^"^ ^'•°'^"°^^'- •^'io--^' Dorion, t2.; in connection with the HSrma. Mciorandiiin in connection with account No. .-,. $"27 1<. 88-966. Deposit, $2,500. 88-9S. 6lh July ; chnqu, pro,luc«l. A. L.vigne, »19 47 • reviS/Se^io^S^Sclt,:^^:!^^^^' *" ^ ^" « •"" ^^'^^ ^^« ItZ 2 T?' '1;''" '™'""'- ^""°"^ * ''^^^««*- *'^«-2-^ = P--'-l matter. 85-101. 8th July ; cheque produced, $.^0 ; personal use. 88-102. 8th July; cheque produced. Hon G Irvino «uif». „,.*••, 88.10'^ Qfh Tm1„ u , """• ^- ^"^^'"e, *U)0 ; professional servces. 88-103. 9th July ; cheque produced. Personal use, $16.86 88-104. 6th July; cheque produced. Ulric Barthe $25 2]f. I'nJ'X' •'^^^'"^ P^^"°«<1- Mrs.Lemieux, $15 for flowers. 88-109. 10th July ; cheque produced. Personal use, $18 88-110. 7th July ; cheque produced. Col. Rhodes, $1.80. I must explain that the cheque is made out to Pnl pv,li k . • , from Col. Rhodes' fruit farm. ^^'^^'' ^"* '^ ^O"" lowers bought 88-111. 3rd July; cheque produced. O. Desmarais, $230 imetrDrrrSintrtzrs^ elections we met in Montreal a^dha^^JtrlgV^irhi:;^^^^ '"""« ^'^^-^^^^ county of St. Hyacinthe, but to go elsewhere Z t fthi fl of^r '"T" ""'^ '" '^^ $300 for the purpose. When he returned oO,,lCi *^" \''^/^« «'^P«"«e. that I would give to him. " You ««ked me to hive pS dt p-"^hlT/ ' "' ""' *"'^ conversation. I said •• Address and to have it taken dowTrn.ho"tha7 The Z '^Z'"^'"^' ^'^^^ --'- '- the " you $230." He replied • " All riJh ^^n ' ? "^ '^" '" "^'"''^ *7(>. Ishall give " the St. Louis Hote?" Which ill ' ^ "' '"'•^' °"* ^'^^ ^^^^'^ '^^ «^'30, and take i^t to '^In ZTy. t"!' ' "''''"' '"'""'• '"^^'^ ^"'*'^'- * ^r^^«- «>00 ; private matter st ;/ ^iiV 7""".:r--^-^-^ Carrel, $10; private account. 88-113a. 10th July; deposit. Transfer from the Union Bank, $.500 88-114. 9th July; account produced. Alex Buchanan s?"? itr d i, 88-1 16a. Deposit, $2072.73.. 390 Ernest Pacaud 88-116/.. Deposit, $370 ; The same thing occurs for the next item. 1 have asked that notes having nothing to'do with this matter be not mentioned. Hon Mr. Justice Jette :— Oive the amount. The Witness:— * tt]]^'' ,:;f J"'y'-"«te,«10.000; discount, $9,692.00; interest on note. $17.53. 88 7 on T f ' u "^"^ P'-O'li'ced. Biblioth^que Fran^aise, $11.25 ; private account, could nl; ^i J«ly; cheque produced. U. Plourde, $25. I have not got the cheque. I in Le chenuVi W hT;.": '".* ' '°""' ""' '''^' '' "" '' ^'- ^'°"'-<^- ^ «"^ ^-'" the stub Inot ftT^ T. ' '^''^"'^ ^"' ™*^" '^"^ '" U- ^'°"^''^' ^"^ ' do not produce it, I cannot hnd it. It is a private account. 88-1176. 6th July; deposit, $74.75. lt]]l"'^^r^ '^"'^ • '^'"P""^- Transfer from the Union Bank, $1,000. r.v,- ,*f , "'^'\*''^''''"^ produced. L. Alain, $2.5. This is in connection with the revision of the electoral Iist« in the county of Chicoutimi 88-119. nth July; cheque produced. Xavier Warren, $24.27 ; personal account. Mr. ZV^o^^T'^'^^' *"* ^"^^'''^ ""^'"'^ ™y ^'^"^''y ^''^y^'^ '«*** «"mmer. 8S-120. 22nd July ; cheque produced. Note of Charles Langelier. $1,000. I produce the note as well as the cheque which was used to pay the note. The expiration which I have previously given applies equally to this note. 88-121. 22nd July ; cheque produced. Personal use, $100. 88-122. 22nd July ; cheque produced. Personal use, $23. 88-123. 23rd July ; cheque produced. Auguste Edge, $10. thnf M^^P ""f •■^"'^' '• •=^'^^"«P»«d»«ed. Fnmk Penn6e, $212.50. I have already explained that M . Penn^e is .m insur.ince agent ; it was for my insurance premium. ^ ss-12.0. 24th July ; cheque produced. Person,)] use, $30. 88-126. 22nd July ; cheque produced. Ulric Baithe, $50 «tlo« ofl t"!^' ' ''u'''"'' P'-o'l^ced. Glover & Fry, $285.36 ; personal matter. Z\;l- ^''^ "^".'f ;,f h-^que produced. Frank Carrell. $10 ; personal account. 88- 128a. Deposit, $3,000. 88-1286. Deposit, $3,000. 88-128C. Di..count $5,925.20. What I requested just now applies to this matter I ^ZZ:^ ' TK *«'«'^«'.-':-\--'-d ^^.^20 20. I drew ngaTnst this two l^Z o\ $3,000 each. This comes within the privilege I requested from the Commission of not enter."g"Ho these .ransactions, which are absolutely foreign to the Baie des Chalenr^ S'iS" 5nll! i"\^' ' ''u^'^"^ Pro'luced. Benoni Samson, $5 ; personal account. 81^404 T 1. i^'-'^"*' produced. L^on Ledieu, for literary articles in the Electenr. $154.04. I had given him my note lor $1.50. It was protested during my absence. I paid t and expenses amounting to $4.04 ; altogether $154.04. This note paid Mr. L^on Ledfeu f^r chamcter^ "" '" '"'' """""' ""'''' ^'' "^"^*""- ''''''■'' ^^ * non-political 88-131. 30th .July; cheque produced. Belleau & Co, $21.71, personal. 88-132. 30th July ; cheque produced. Personal use, $100. 88-133. 30th July ; cheque produced, Parmelee draft for $500. I paid a draft for Mr mi Ernest Pucaud 391 «u Parnielee ami aeiit it cm to him. He. sent me the amount by the following mail. Mr. Par- melee is the editor of the Waterloo Adverliner. This has no conn.jctioii whatever with the Bale di s Chaleurs afl'air. It is a transaction quitti distinct from it. 88-1154. 30th July ; cheque produced. Auguste Edgvi, |il5. 88-135. 3l8t July ; cheque produced. J. A. BSlanger, $118.2.5. He is one of the workmen working at my house. 88-13oa. Memorandum, in reference to account No. -5, *75. 88-136. 'mh July ; cheque produced. Ulric Barthe, $100. 88-137. 3^^: July ; cheque produced. Eloi Picard, $300. 88-138. 3()th July ; cheque produced. Frank Currell, $10. 88-139. 30th July ; account produced. Dr. C. \. Verge, $70; medical attendance upon my family. 88-140. 5th August; cheque produced. F. Marier, $26.66, pers^mal. 88-141. 5th August; cheque produced. Great North Western Telegraph Co., $11.17; pergonal. 88-142. 6th August; cheque produced. Personal use, $100. 88-142a. This is again a discount which does not enter into my statement. There is here. $2,500, and against it, $2,441.95. 88-143. 6th August; cheque produced. George Hough, $20 ; personal account, livery stables. 88-143a. The cheque is not produced here because, as before, it is the proceeds of a discount. There was a deposit of $534.93, and against this was drawn $534.95, which is item (881436.) 88-148C 6th August ; deposit, $500. 88-144. 5th August ; cheque produced. J. D. Anderson, $20 ; personal account. At 1 p. m. the witness' examination was adjourned. 2 o'clock; p. m.. the 23rd day of October, 1891. ERNEST PACATJD, advocate and journalist, continued his deposition as follows : - 88-145. 30th July ; cheque produced. Edouard Garueau, $12.50 ; personal account. My subscription to the Union Club. 88-146. 7th August; cheque produced. Auguste Edge. $5. 88-147. 5th August; cheque produced. G. Seiffert, $,")0 ; personal account. 38-148. 9th August; cheque produced, personal use, $45. 88-149. 9th August ; cheque produced. Auguste Edge, $3it ; personal account. 88-] 'Oth August; cheque produced. L. J. Pinault, $30. This amount was intended to be sent to Dr. Fiset, at Rimouski, for expenses in connection with the revision of the electoral lists in tie county of Matane. On the 10th of August, the day of my departure, I left this cheque with Mr Pinault, requesting him to send the amount to Dr. Fiset. 88-151. 7th August; cheque produced. F. Carrell $10 ; personal. 88-152. 10th August; cheque produced. J. Boiteau, $40; personal account, cab hire. 88-1520. Protest, $2.54. 88-1526. Deposit, $100. 88-152(;. Deposit, transfer from the Merchants' Bank, $100. 88-152d. Discount, $l,432.8ij. 892 Ernest Pacaud 88-1.51'e. Chf.que, $1,452.02. « note. It i. the procre'cir;;^ n!,;!" ^h^l't^: ''''\'''''''''' '^''^"-> '■^' '« the pr„ceed« of with thi.s .natter. "'^'°*^ ^^"^ negotiated and which has nothing to do ««-Sf 25:;^r :^:^;r^ "-r^-'^- ^pp- ^wn, ^,c^o. note the protest afd ulete' eTe'^^LS'i!':- t" ''^""' *^'''-'^^- ^ P-'"- th. avoid n„stnke, I should mention that tl^ ^o ll ^'^ T'' "''^' '" '«*»'« ^he note. T^ Hearn I discounted this at Mr. Hea. n' relir 7^ ^/ '''• ''*^^'^'" *" ^^'^^ -^er of Mr! I re-endorsed it and I paid it. ^ ''• ^''"" "'^* "«'« «">"« d"e it was protested, :^^^pi^oL::t^ Langener to .end .e money amount to the Alliance Bank in Londol' '^' '"^'' '™'" ''^^ ^'^''^ to send me the -156. nth August. Costofeab .^50 tll^ of caWmg me this last sum was «5.r,() ^ ' '""" '"'^ ^'"'^ staten.ent. The expense -yhoJ-as^iat:ra:i;^r '^"'"^^'- ^^'^^ ^--''.*^000.00;isthecontractorfor* theS:isSt1^ShitSCX'H^;'t^''T ''•'''''■ ^'^'^ '« ^or one of 8«-]59. 29th August ; cheque nrod„. , ^ • i?.^^" ^"^^«' °^ Montreal. was for work done to' my'newZse."'- "^'^ ^"^^^' ^^^^^^^ ^e is a contractor. It 88-159a. Surplus interest, $13.30 Jhavo„^fi,- in erest on a note that I paid ; few day 'Xr,^^^^^^^^^ produce tor this, it is surplus 113.30. This amount was charged in mv book h,, T ^ '"*"''''"' ^'^^ increased to 88-lGO. 29th Sentemhpr • nL ^ , ' ^"* ^ ^'^^'^ no cheque for it for purchase of c^r""'" ' ^'^'^"'^ ^^^^"-'^- ^- «">tras ^ Co.. ^65.46 ; personal account personal matter. ''"™'" ' ^'^^"^ P^"'*"^-'- «-at North Western Telegraph Co «16 U • 88-167. 9thOctobe ;^heTepolS" p V^'f' !"'= P'^"""^' -«-»'■ .onaplr ""*"■ ^ "''""^ '"«""«'■ «"»' ■^""■> W..e,„ Te.e.„ph Co., ,67. ,- p„. the t^!l%utZt^f.t "»-'"»'='-«''« '"fi, «,„„„„, ,t„„,„^„, ,„^^ ^^. of^reSor*'"""""^ oh„,„.p„„,„„,„, E„„B„„„„ee.,,.«. „,. B„„ch.«o i. one 88-17la. 7th October ; deposit, $,55.03. «to i t V 6 b Frnest Pacaud to,S^ "' "'"^""'"^ ^^« «-^- '"• ^euple. This balances their 393 account. The total id THE UNION BANK. Bank IvcliiThVlOMfJuf t^^^ '-JPlanatory statement of my account with the Union -ent or the Lank, certihec, h^;; ti;:;;^^:;^^ ^'''''^* ''' '^ ^"""— ^ «-" 8:.-3. llthJnly cher'ne p "d c d' J^^'^ "^^ ^^^^ ^^"-n Bank, S.2.5,0«0. M.-. Morcie. ,T. I. Tarte, tie ZTct P P^ tL^trff J? ™%-^--' ^^ '^^ Hon. I pr...luce as exhibit 8!)-3 this note for «S0^) H i .^°"- •^'''- I^'^"^'elier, $3,()0(). date, endoi^ed by the Hon. Mr. MercL WnT; ?t ^'' ^"'■"- P'^^'^'^'^ ^ '"°»«'« rom the Hon. Ch. Langelier. The el^Zul^tJTCT'l *'', ""^^ "^^ ^^ "^ ^^"^''^ ^'^ notes.arjpliestothisone. ' ^ '"''^ ''''■««f'y given concerning these BanM2;Cep;^^:trSZtS^S^^r '"'•"r^ '-'^'''^^ the Merchant, to the credit of the Hon. Chs. Langelier at tSan'' -T","'' ^^P"' '^•^^^"' *^''^«« '^ ^»^P«»ited >n paying election accounts, among others Mr cT^ "J '"P'*'' *''"^^- ^-^''^^^^ «'"P%ed produce this cheque for $Sm a^ ExhiWt 89^ tTl'r f '""'• ^^'^^^ """kes the $8>()0 I Hon. Chs. Langelier also applies tX.£Zt 0(7,1 '"?• '•'''''"'' "'^''^ «^«"'^^-'"« the «9-5. nth July ; note produced. Cheque lost flh "^^f T"'^ '" ''''' '''""■ but I know that Igave it to pay a note airei bv m "^7"' ""T '^'''^ '"^ «"^ *h'"« ^^^eque, Mr. Tarte, the Hon. C. A. P Pelletfer aXu„ J^'"'' l"'^''''«^^' ^>y '^e Hon. Mr. Mercier, Exhibit 89-5. this note signed by me datd m^m " St '^'"^'"'^'■)' *'^'*^- ^ P^^^J^ee as endorsed by the Hon. Mr M.rcier Mr jll^ ,' i"^'^' ^^^^' «* ''^^^ months from date! Hon. Chs. Langelier. VVhat Se Urtcl' sa^c^c *'• ''\''"" ^- ^- ^*^"«*'- --' ^e th'« one. ""^*^^^'y ^'^'f' concerning these notes applies equally to chec^etlht'tr^ofBXin'^:!tdtK^^ °«^^^' *-'-^- ^ P-^"- this 89-7. 11th July ; cheque produced Mr p 7, ^1'^'^" * ^«-. '^s Exhibit 89-6. 89-8. 2Lst Jul/; cheque pSoed for ^0(rH%^f'^^ correspondent, $2.5. Bank, *2,0(.0 ; deposit at the UnlrBaS CLs R l' "tV°""^' = '''^'''' ^' ^^^ ^-^'-nts, Banque du Peuple, S].,K.,) ; deposit for t'; H^n ChS''r '''r''°"" ^''''' ' '^^'^^'' ^' t^e returned to the Hon. Chs. Langelier $1 500 "ai^ l f^^i" ^^ ' ^''"^"«^'" P'^"PJe. ^^^OO ; $7,000. 1 produce as Exhibit 89-8 thiscCnSrror;- ^T*""^' «1'0«*>- -hich makes Armstrong which I paid. Mr. Armstrong selt me a .l' '"'."'' '"'^ '^' "''^^"^ "^ ^^- N- him, dated ITth July. T^n's cheque was nm^Lf 7 M '"^'"^ *" f'*''^ '^ '''•''" ^r «1.002.50 for with the money that I had drawn I "e^to ^heTni' 'T T' "" "*"^"^^ '^ -«' -^ Armstrong's cheque for the .$1,002 50 The UnU . T ^^"'^ ^"^ P^'^ "" thac day Mr the Hon. Chs. Langelier appli.4 eqiiTily o the' r '" '^"' ' ""'''' «'^^" before concern^g well as to all the other items ^ '^™ comprised in the cheque for $7 000 as by ». Bene,., b,„to, »,ooo. I p„a™. « ExwS^^is'th^ ii:.T:ri'p j;:.:'s:r4 S94 Ernest I'ucaud wa^Jorl^-" r ^''' '"' "" «'l»>-'^'ent for thi« amount sufficient to pav me- it made to guarantee the payment of ihe *3,()00 when due. angement 89-10. 9th August ; cheque produced. Bill of exchange on Paris • personal affivir «1 ",00 L::; ::; "^ 'T: " ""'■ ^'"'"°"'^"'- ^^^^'^ -*-^"- «'■ '•- ^-moT m n ri- W -f • ^^^""'-'■■" ^-- -« '^ «i>> of exchange on the Credit Lionnais ; I o n ot «<^n Q?K V ^ ^' """' "* *''" '""' "*"™>^' ^^''^••"*'' f""- Europe. i.ea on ifte yth. I produce this cheque as Exhibit 89-12 It 10 m., .„d h, U,d „ a, .,,pe.» in the acc»,m„...,l,at i, .„.,y „ot ,h. l„Z drew .„i„e „„ .he Ba„,„e d„ P.„p„. „,«, ,„, „,« , .,, 3.,„„;'j ' ™^ » ;'--;_ ' »»-l*.. lOlhAugMt; iioeheque. Pereonal. Money foi mv ttin «r nn- -'™'^ - .lating .ha. my cheque, had been ,eln,„ed to me, it mu.t have been pwduoed bl f .n.:::^g!ta::r;:rrrio"r.X"^^^^^^^ boaM .he p»„-..-,„ ,.„,„, ,.,, „; bUe ;L;'^::ti ;r;:::;::r°r anlnmn, I ™ .f„,d I .ho„,d „„. gel .„i..h,e acoommodairon, her, Zf' .^ ^e' „' i Ernest Pamud 396 irte, C. A. P. produce the I ought to pay iiie ; it es ChaleuTH. rranp;enient fair, $1,500. >. In return is ; I do not ne, but any I, for fifteen ; personal ; my house, eque that I use when I must state )llectiunof iters until ■rs ; I lent >k. Langelier. 10 that he "xv to send e sum. X 1300 and iven't got aving for led to me a receipt efore the the eve of •room on ;r in the ludge ta ■t ■■ to Mr. Harris for my ticket oa boarrt rCal. rf?'"' '' '' '^ ^^^^""^ «^^-«" '^^ ^^ bef..re the Senate, because it w^gi . frthe Unfo"Bar;n "T T '"" ''''' ^'^"''--' «<.M,-,6. 13th August ; deposit, «..0<,. ^'"' "^'""'""■^' ''^ '"^ '^'^'P'^'^"-- cheq::wL:ilT;.iS;::t;^^^^^^ The amount of this I. should state that, being one of the direao s ^ the Un'Tl'^r "''*"" '" '''' ^'"•"" ^'»^- into it a.s many a. possible of my pe ZaMriLl lu ^ " ' ' ^"^ ^'^^'^'^^^^^d in getting tried to induce Mr. Duhan.eUo\.err : ^I' £ m/ Du, ? rf ™"' ''^^^- ' °'''^" saying that he rarelv went to any club ^m\inlZ I'u ""'"^™«' ^'^ays made objections, L^on Ledieu, on leading his office and t^t Mr 7' r ' rr™?'""'^^ ^'^ Lrother-in-law. Mr. not afford to become . member of he Un n Club S hi """^' '' ''^ ^'^"■«°" ^'"^' -""^ 80. On the other side. I pressed him ver^brrd ^.1 '"n, T """'"'''^ '"^ '^''"^^'f *" ^o and I wanted to meet all mv friendTther. n sr'i/ fl ." ^ "^^ "^"^ ''^^'' ^ '^'^•'^>« ^^ent, his name put up, accepted a 1 Lt I Vo ^ plf ^^^^^^ "k'"'' '. ■'°" ''" ""^ ^ "^''^ ^'^'^ against this and never wished to accent 7lJ^ T ''"^^^'^P^'O"' He always protested »9-lba. 28th beptember ; deposit, «20(». 8«-17. 1st October ; cheque produced. Xavier Warren «i^7=;ft vr rxr Bmught rorw„rwiiv.e as Jixinbit 87-3 the receipt of the T ^ ^"^'.t ^"'^ ^P"'- ^^^"'nP'""! Monun.ei.t. $34. I produce as Exhihif afJL u Judge Chauveau gave me for this amount. Exhibit 87-4. the receipt 87-5. 30th April, Subscription for the Fortress TTntol at'inn t .h, m'iZV^r "■ "°"'' "°- ' ""^"'^ " ^-"W »M, Mr. L,„,...„eceip. .„. 398 Ernest Pacaud election, and the cheque that paid it. expenses of contestation of MaakinongS 87-9. 14th May. Draft, on Firis S.-,f>n(i tu .anc. this Cheque was d.wn, and ^ ^:S :tS^ ^!^ ^^ ---• this draa ofih CiuSwn ::s.tt3St;:ri'f • ^^-i'"^^-^^ ^^^^^^* ^^-^o- cheque used to pay this draft. I must state \nL\ l- ^"''"«°'^" 'o'" ^-'•'^O, «s well as the drafts werodrawn upon me thesan^fdayTe Solo" "''''" "'"°""' '^'^^ ^"^ two wrote n.eithat Mr. Mercier had personally'agree, torn ^hT°""' ^"' *^''- '''•• ^^'^^^^l^" testa. on; that he knew from Mr. MereieStLl hi .''■'"'''"' '*^" **^^»^«"g^ <=on- thathehHdleft money in my hands before LIT'^ ^^r""^ " '"^ '^™"S'' *^'- ^ercicr- quently he wrote to me : " Acting upon iXlt^on'" "' *' ''''' "" ^'^ '^"-""^^ .• conse- you money to pay his accounts, I have taken the U ."Tf "^"' ^'^'- ^^^«^'''«'' has left drafts, one of $2.^0 at 1.5 days and < ne of $to at -^M "^ ? 'T "P*^" '^'^^ '°^ ^''^OO in two that I haye just produced. Personal y know no iS j "''^' ^^P"^'"« "^« *- drafts who, according to Mr. Beausoleil, had nndertrk n h ^ """""' ' '' ^'^ M''- herder; tation. Mr Beausoleil wrote me that Mr CcS^^ ,truX:i "' I'^ ^''"'^'"""^^ -"'- understood that I had money to pav Mr Me e'r, h* , " P"^' ^*' '"^"^ ^^at he thzs ; hence clrew upon me ; but 1 1 nofknow wl at onte'st' t ' ''°"^'* ^ °"^^^ ^« P^^^ Federal; perhaps it was mentioned in theTtle brJ , " """^ '" question, Local or thing for me was to carry out Mr Mr M J.?«!! ' ''''' ""' ""''^« i^; the principal was not my affair. I accepted the dn.f^ a. d paTd th'^'" '"''''■• ^^"'■^"'^'''^ ^'^ '^ ^^at 87-11. 1st. June. Allan line *'>'?^'^ t a which paid the amount. ' " ^'"''""^ *^" ^"•"P^ny's receipt and the cheque 87-12. 1st June. Ou«toms duty, Colley, broker Si 10 'X^ r $119.31, I produce a Tetter from Mr. Boivin exnlainin?. t J ^■!! ' ""'' '"^' *='>«1"e is for cab hire, which I had to pay *2.8.5 for car tge e e "^.e iL 7 T*^^ °' '"^ *' ^ ^* -*^« ^o^' diflerence, Mr. Boivin wrote me as followsf "" ' '''°^ ^'^P''^'"" 'his $2.35 Ernest Pacaud, QuEBKc, June 13th, 1891. Quebec " My dear Pacaud, " Yours truly, " JUSEPH BOIVIN." Ernest Pacavd sni) I produce as f Maakinong^ tie company's ivhat circum- shibit 87-10, s well as the hilt the two '. Beausoleil kinong^ con- r. Mercicr — J»ts; conse- ier has lel't ^■')00 in two ' two drafts fr- Meroier; 'ig6 contes- nd that he ight to paj- 'n, Local or e principal wish ; that lie cheque Jt for this sque is for it was for this 12.35 1891. lid *2.35 fercier'a I, which This explains the letter. • '' "'^' ^'^ 1^^™'«' ^ed to me all the accounts. I gaS. Sir pat -r ""' '''•''■ ' ^'™^"- ^^^ --^P^ '^^ ">- -ni and the cheque ^orS:^^^^^^;^;'^,^;^^ y^fr..n upon me by Mr. Llovd The rent had been paid legular Iv to M . ^ u 'he w^^ " ' '""'"' ""' " "'^""^'-'• advance, hence he asked me if I wo^l acceDt a dL f ^"%'V'-^r« *" "•'tain the rent in said I had no objection to oblige him Tcceld he d^l'T l". ?. ''" '""' "'*« ^'^ ^ ^ produce Mr. Lloyd's receipt and the cheqT vh Ih L tl.J ,' l/ 'T' '''^''''''- ' "^'^^ Mr. Mercier's hou.se, in de Breban.f street ^ ™"- '' ^'^ ^"^ ^^^ rent of 87-1,5. Oth July. Allan line, $15.93. I produce tho All., n r amount ami the cheque I gave to pMV it. ^ '''' '^"^ "^"^^ Company's receipt for this 87-16. 7th July. Custom duties, Collev broker »o.>7 m t , for this sum and the cheque which paid It.' "'""''""^ *''• ^°'^«>"« «ceipt 87-17. 9th .July. Duty and charges, Collev hrokpi- «iRo« T ^ for this amount. ^' '°''^'' *'^'^^- ^ Produce Mr. Colley's receipt ^^ J7-,8. 22nd July. Allan line, *12.16. I produce the Allan Company's receipt for this placSr ,i??t Sv1i^ M^S:^:^ ,s' S"^r ''' '''7' '^^ *^''« -- ^^« -o-t leaving a balance in Mr. Mc.c er's fZ of' iTh 7', '^"^^""^^ l^''!'^ «"^ ^- l>in» was $6,788.29, this balance, I had the money, bit I ^eA.sed' o makJ'"^ .^"" ' "°"'^ "'^^^ ^^^^ ^im return, until I had given acco^unt of allt;talSs r^^^^^^^^^^^^ in JyZSstr^t^^S:^^;.^^^^^^^ ''' ^'^^^-«- ^°- «- «^-^"^ the money remaining Cash in hand, Banque du Peuple Savings Department, $447.85. Banque du Peuple, $3,000. This is the Merchants' Bank cheque which I mentioned above. Union Bank, $90.41. Union Bank, Upper Town, $55.25. Merchants' Bank, $62.74. National Park Bank, New York, $20 000 which reads as fullow8 : leceipt, whicli I do not produce, but i i 400 Ernest Pucauci " National Park Bank, " Eknkst Pacaud, Esq., " Dear Sir, " New York, Oct. 21st 1891. " We l.ave y.mis of 19th Oct., satisfying our i.iauirips nf TJf h ......f w u letter is satisfactory. We have brwa.i.,1 vnn tnT . ^ ^^'^ '° "'*>' >'«»^ correcr^.;S.""''"'^"°"*''^' '^^°°""^' "^"" ^^P* ^'^ ^^^^ p,ea.e adv.e if it is " I remain, " Yours very truly, " GEORGE S. HrCKSO>r, -f ' " Cashier." I must state in connection with this wliv I spnt mv m,M,«,. »„ xr -ir , „ and legal proceedings. pruaent to .ivoid difficulties, annoyance By Hon. Mr. Justice Jem : Q. What is the date of the deposit ? I wish also to explain about my interviewing Mr. Webb to ask him if l,. ^„m .• to whom the cheques had been given This c'onversation wa't J ted .^^ the^ir papers as . I had gone to see whether in c.se I should not produce U.h cheques it .oudbJ o „.d out to whom they had been given. I solemnly declare that I wen Jhc'; . 'Sain mfurmation lor the Commission. I wont there not to make away with docunls 3; because I n.yself had difficulty in tracing all the chequ. s, there were'som payabT b. "/ 1 n. 21st 1891. ^ to say your )lease use in !H™ •h.t,.wMf„r that purpose I »e„t there M,! '^"''^°""""''"- ' ">leranly declare befereMr.toith; Im.'ieno^cttS t Idl „rZkT "'"■ "'■ "'*'' 'o"" P« • the.„„ left i„ t,„,d .„. „f the ,2o,Cir»";i°;S™,H"'''''^''"'' *•'""•'" So?.Trei;Ti.r:c;.;°'iif ■ •'■^' -"^^^^^^^ .w 41'rrr.- TaTtS r^Ltitr-' ^"™ -* ^"'•' -■- - ^- . Bt/ /foft. Mr. Justice Jem : .n ej«o'=r;ftt'rt'rTrs'c„t"r -r^'V r.'">— '-» I PKKiuoe compriee, all tha, „as done mth the money '' ""°'* "■" "" ""««« e.e^drsi;i-r:rtriJs'^^^ A. I aeeonnt for „„re than that a, th '" "" *™''™' before the Commiaaion. ' " """'' ""» ?"""■ "•".«io,», and I h.,e laid all Mr. BHque. I understand that Mr. Pacaud Hon. Mr. Justice JeltS ;— If you wish to give any further explanations, The Witwss :— accounts for all his transactions since the 6th of May. you are at liberty to do so now. M„„srstrto"r»d^r=trthX; t r -'"■ r - — -.0, On the occasion mentioned bv Mr A rm.f,„ a,,. . MA Armstrong, thm in exactly which passed • .e.„;r^rshrjr-tsrs;r^ra™i.^r^^ 2g ^ * "*"«>■ of accommodation. 402 Ernest Pacaud i f 1 1 i I told Mr. Armstrong that I looked upon a draft acceuted bv mp „ n.e-that I would pay the dralta-in lact I did pay them buTir V'" "'"^' '^ draft ibr $1>,000, Mr. Armstrong asked me for $14 m^ ■ I , k "^ ""'''"''^ * me for .*14,7o0. or to let hin. hLe tha Tm unt o F ' ! " ' '^"""'' *° ^'^'^^ "P°" „ ^ , """ '"'" '"■" ■ '"'• >»" a-mple eaongl, to think that I have this SKKimi .v p„cket,o, t .. thi. ,„„, .,„ „„,.i„. i„ the h.„k , .. , .aid al.o , .^^You ™ t^T ;;.e„p,e,,h„.»,h Le.^.;:;:ttr;::r:v:^:r.::::r rihi: . « a:,::,:-:: r: •"" •""""= - '-- • ■'- ' ■ -- p- ^^ »- ^ - :::::; h.»::::hr;:rii:;:t:r„iThr,Lrr:^^^^ -- ' -- - "■- .. the Wi„..o, Hote,. I ha. .„„ ,„,„... ,,th htm' "^ -^'thT bJi never, old Mr. A,n,.,„„g .ha. I h..! ,„ render .oconnt t„ Mr. Me.cier- I co„,n„ >, M.dit,Mr.Mei:oierbeingi„E,nope. I .pent the «.ilomn . '""'''''■' «°°''' "»"■"« wi.h„„..a,inga™rf,„M,.M™i„„hril. ' ' '°""°'"'*'" '" """• Mr. Webb has also repeated a remark T om <.„»,,, j ^ i sum that I W..S to receive from the Z:;^Blnr;:rr; ul' rp^ ^ ^ ^ ^''^^ "^^ exactly what sum, as I read it in the conservative papers Ihod bf T'. '''"'^"^''^ .0,.^: I do not know which ; that is how : ^J^:::::::::^::^:;^^^ Well-there is some truth in what Mr. Webb said. It is true that I told h were discu^ing how thi.. money would be withdrawn. Mr. W^bb 2av to i ^' paper was of full value and that the bills I offered him were the ImrbuthTt ^ ^ question of advancing the money. I had just told him what I intendTd to l"l ^ ! "" ' credit ; then I added : " I want to advai.rp Pnn«,M i , '"^e°aea to leave at my own Mr. Charles -.elier. for buildi^trro^^r^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ - begun to advance different amount., and now that I have nJe money I'am Z T ' continue to help him with still larger amounts. Then as Mr LanJ' T ' *" for his house, the sums will only have to be disbur Jr: 1^ ^ ^ ^^ l!";' tor a year or 15 months." At the same time I offered Mr. Webb a is^f mt T ' "Takemy li.tof notes and pay them yourself when they fall due si Th """"' need to disburse money. You will place to n,v n , ' * ^°" ^'" "°* • ,. , . '''° ^" '■'> P^'"S"na' account $40 000 to ifi'-.n mn u- ^ remain. Now I wish to make advances to Mr. Charles Langelier forJiild L. 1 T' "^ doe.s not want this at once-his contract.,, will draw it by d ' ™ " '::! ' " '^ which you will not have to disburae." 'logrees-j ou can add $10,000, Ernest Pacaud ique signed by ng accepted a i to draw upon iteral security I said to Mr. 3 accepted the ;o ask me for ■our your dis- this $100,000 lu know your- ounted two of e Banque du I. How then n not accept it him there* negociations, hese. But I lid not have on is aware, im that the t remember tint, $20,000! lounts. him we ne that the lat it was a at my own $10,000 to ive already lisposed to wants this s monthly es saying; )u will not 'OO, which 'Use ; as he d $10,000, 403 b.0^ tjr<^j^:^:^j.:f r^ I po^iti^lZ; neither m connection with the Baie des cllkurs Iff ! ^°'^^1«"^ ^"-^^''-V orindirectly, since there was any talk about the Bde Ss Chlut , "h ''T l'""'' ^'''^n^'^-tion whatever ever with Mr. Robidoux. One thinl occurrpH .1 n "^'■' ' ^'^^^ ^^'^ "« ^'^'^'inKS what Which he repaid me on -turnh^rm Z ~ He ^^^^^^^ ' ^^^ ^'^ ^or him, subscription to Mr. Garneau. I wish™ that MR .% T ? ^™*'"""' '^'"' I P^^^ his club, and I paid his subscription t^ the ^If Chfb^Sr MP f T"^ ' '"^^'"^'-- ^^ ''- h.m hi« receipt, and he told me he would il^rn. ? '• ^°'''^'«"^ returne.l, I j,ave agam The next time we met he brought mte J oo^'i^"""" ''' ' "' ''"' '' ^"^ "^ Street. «"' ™e the $100 , it was at my house, St. Genevieve at the beginning of April, I tWu^b ti Lt "li ,7 .f " *'^ ^''' ''' C'^^'-- ™aU r have Imd nothing to do with Mr. RSouxd'f^^^^ '^P*^'' ^'•"'" «"« transaction i h.m, neither account nor anything else ' "' "^'""'"^- ' ^^^^ P-^^^ nothing^or ing tirtr r i^ncr r:ir t? "^ -''- '"^"^-- -^^ -pt. ^egree having paid the $100 forT ^^.^Z ^ ^ t Irwi,: TT ^"""'^"^^ '^ ''''■ ' actions with the Hon. Mr. Duhamel : I never .1"^!' T """ ''' '"^^ ^^^"«- reference to the Baie des Chaleurs Tbt , ' '^"""'"^ ""' indirectly, in <3overnment: the Hon. m' MerX the hImT" '7' '" ""'''' '''^'^^ "^ ^^e Mr.Sheyhn,the Hon. Mr. B^y r ' ^ave I h f "' *^^ ^un. Mr. Garneau, the Hon. Langelier, I have mentioned art^iesurCdfb"';' ''^"- ^ '" '""^ ^^^ C^"'- IcleclaresolemnlythatlnevertodMTSs W?'r """"""^"^^^^^^ matter, I never told any of the m ni^ i^ on ^ "^ ^''T ' '"" '" ^'^ ^^^^ "^« ^h«'-- my transactions with i. AriroTwhen r" '' "^'"'^^ """^^'^'^^^ ^™- '^'^ ^'1 I put forward only the Hrst :Ti;:ZZ::Z7:::^T''''''' °" ''' -'^-' ' of tne public and my personal interest. The nurcin ]""''' '^^ '^'^^^^ • the interest it extremely important not to let th s pport„nt "lin 7" T"""*^^™^^' ^ ^ -"-^ered Kaiway, as important for the Provinra^l^llLlrntlT ih' ^' 'T ""^"" private interest, of which I never snokP f h" . ^' "'"^"*- ^^ere was also my own importance. '^ ^^^'"''' "'^ munsters as of primary wish • rrufdr oVS^wtl^^^^^^^^^ r ^^-r. ^- *^'^« *« ^r- ^- «. OumouUn. I in the ordinary way of business for bank trxfiS.r"^',"- ""^""-^"^ ' ^*^^« ^^« ^^^^O, it was Mr. Webb has also expressed doubts ToTZZ^e 1ZTT\'' '' ""^"«^'er of the bank. It to him or that if I had not brought it from th" p"^'' ' ^" "^""^"^^ ^^at I had brought that I had had it and that I haj given a rec^io? to'"n"-' '* ''^' ""' ^"^^ '«»^ *' »'> '"e. declare that I never saw the letter oTc.edTtT.lo no!' 'T ^'"^ ^'"^ ^'- ' P'-'^ive'y written ; it was never shown to me, I n ve h tc i in mv ?". T^ °" "'"' ^^^^ ^^ -- «ver read to me. ' *"''' " '" '"J '^"^"ds, I never read it, nor was it Mi 404 Ernest Pacaud I also declare that I tipvpi- <•,..„ j ■ ~ ' Coope,., .icate ; that I ra^^^g " clo'StT .'/'""'" ^'^ ^-«tro„g and the deeding the amount which was to be paid bv u J ,' ""'^'"'^'^ ^" "° ^^^ whatever n Armstrong told me that he had made ar 1 ^ «y»<^^'cate to Mr. Armstrong When Mr »ntere,t., open for ib«rty-Hveaaj"-IarSr'?^ ""' " ^°^' °^ P'omise of sale o Ws correct -Mr. Armstrong declare, to melattr;' "" '" '^^ ""™'^^- ^''^ ^ ^hink that , him $17o,,M)0 if he had ti.e contract It this tJm^ tT?'^"'^!''"'^ ^""^'^ ^e obliged to pay nor '^ny of those gentlemen who are in ere tV'i'*^l°"' '^""^ Mr. Thom, L.cHZ know Mr. Cooper till after every thnriS ten ^^'T ^-^"''"^'^ ' '" ^^^'^t I did not York ; I did not know him by sight and inVr.T'. 7^'"' ^""^ ^^« first time in New entered the Brunswick Hotel with Mr Arm tt^ T^^' ^° ^^« ^'^ hooper wh if hi -de all his arrangements with M.^'^otlZlul p:l:L'''* """ "*'• ^'-^-'rhad ^ '""St also mention another detail n,,,; .u ~dme ior the first 4ie t h^ggiJe^X ^.Z ^[o^ .^^ ^^ -^ thoughrililVr^^^^^^^^^^ Hisviewofthesubjeot He • ayndicate, because I would rece"« :^ ::^^^^^^^^ ^he disposal of the Coopi Mr. Irvine, to decide between us, al to who wtl S "^ ^""- '''''"'^ ^im.o the Ho„ him I went to Mr. Irvine and told him TMrTla lo^Ln" T" ^"'"'' "'"' °" ^^^'^-^ W r ; J^^u ^'■""^ ^'^^'^ '' •=°"''i not be possible thath 'J*'"-^^''' ^^^^^ ^^^ had just saidTj he had the proof in his book that I hadgi Jen ever.' """'•'. ^'"^ '^•^" ^is-infcrm d, b cluse 'Uid that I h,id done all that was hnmlf , "^ '"''"'''^ assistance to Mr Mocdonn i In fact, Mr. Irvine told -etr^lfreTetTam TtT '''V" ''' '''' eontracTt' ,t' repeated by him word by word by telegraph TMr P ' °" ''^'^ «"^J«<=t ^^^d brn in::r,:::::;::r"''"^-»-"--°---. ....... h«vc. „.„, ,,„■ t: :r:iT„'.X' "rrr-f °"" -^-^ "■" « ^e .on„ , I produce the following telegrams: " E. Pacaud. " Laurier and myself think you should yesterday. /• Ottawa, 14th August. »-.ete..i„,DuM„„,i„,w,„b,.ve,y,o„,,.„„., FEANgoiS LASGELIEB. ■■ trongand the y whatever in g. VVhen Mr. of sale of hia think that is )bhged to pay 1, Mr. Cooper fact I did not er seen him, time in New iper when he nistrong had legrani from jortant busi nald, >ind he Ernest Pacaud 405 Merctraiflfim^'trHo^F itfr "- Hon. Mr. Ihe Hon. F. Langeher telegraphs me to return ; what shall I do ? " Mr. Mercier replied : " Do what Frangois says." Ste. Anne de la Parade, 14th August, 1891. MERCIER. " J.BELANGER, Clerk 0/ the Commisgion. iibjeot. He the Cooper to the Hon. irting from, just said to ed, because lacdonalci, t for him. had been h to keep ith- having ate. e long. J (xactly an "iJ it has I wish to ould not fust. ?; letter CANADA. ) ■TROVINCE OF QUEUEC I Ti r\-rT * ^^striet of Quebec. '[ KOYAL COMMISSION 11th SITTING. Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice LO.S A. W, President, " .. i"""'^ ^KANfois Georges Baby Charles Peers Davidson, ERJTEST PACAUD advocatP nnH • ,• (Commissioners. Since the.ciiourn,nent vrH " " ^°""""' '' '^^"""""' «« ^«^'- = I produced yesterday befo ^Ih ' CoZr' ' "T P^^P-^d asun^mary of all the staf discounts from the differenf «fn? ^*"°™'««'«". that is I have deducted^ l7^ I ^^^ ^^nents the vouchers tC? if "'™®"*« P^^ucod leaving onIv»h! *" *^« ''ePosits, and SUMMARY : Banque^Nationale fMercier) $5,250 The amount of the vouchers produced hv ^'■- ^^™«''' ^^Seo.Gl. Union Bank, the voucher; nr^^^ ^ '"'' '" *36,975.66. Merchants Bank, $m ^ """^ "'""""* *« *-'8,759. Cash New- York, National Bank ; $20,000 Total moneys, $24,800 and ^565.34. Which makes in all $103.286J0. ine sum of $103 2Sfi in ;. »i. Ernest Pacaud 407 the Honourable Gkorges Baby, AVIDSON, Judge ;8 and circum- »ade under the way Company, ousand eight inmissioners. )liow8 : ■ statements 'posits, and esented by which will I produce into details of the discounts and the cheques whinh w»ro i I have not spoke.i of them Since iZ T ''^'''"'* *''"'"• '^^'^ '" ^^y insi^tedthatlshoul p^ttot leC^^^^^^^^^^ "" ''""• '''■ ""^'^^^ ^'^^" ->^ *at he to ao With the Baie dersrui'L^rrii^ii^rr^^^^^^^^ note for $6,000, $.5,92r,.oo. ^"^''' P^'oc^'eJs of the discount of a he weld »„tl,o,ize 7Z t7Z« I """' " *•'•"*'• """ "'■'"« '"«' '« ">" H„„.Se„.u,rPelM., . a" L.h ,^"' ,'"7 "*'" '"'" '" '""" «'"■ ■»« '» "" Pene.i,rg»ve™.theno.e;Ifill.di.i„for.he™^lT.6l '."" '""■""'■ "'■ Ch..t.„gelier. Thi. „.,, I.hi„k, ft.«,, ], J'™ °'^'^»^ » <> >'»'' " e"""™.! by Mr. I « »"e letter to Your Honours 11 408 Ernest Pacaud Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— Vonr Honour, can read the whole letter, (ine letter was mvfn fr.*v, ^ 7%e iri/;»Mg.._ The portion of the letter wh evidence.) ich the Commission aiith, irizemetoreaciisHsfJlows: " 24, rue des Capucines, Paris, June 18th, 1891. This on one you 1" 1" ">'«'«»■ '» .!«" it, have ,-. di-JJe^ 1^1 T""' '"""" '"> «'■ ■» "'"" ■»"«».„.. p„vi„„,|y, p|,i 4"'"" '" ■"■IJ f" Engtad, .„d„ I ifte^ cabli this cable about the 30th June or l.tJuir"*""^''"^^^-^P—*h'^^I«ha,l receive tr r.^ *^« -« - 3 -nth JoasoXl^^^^^^^^^^^ -St pay ieThe; before being called upon to pay it. "' '° P"* '"^ ^''''^^ •" order on my return Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti, addressing counsel .- H. M." Mr. Casgrain :~ When Mr. Pacaud is cross-examined we shall fH *°'''«*y- ' "^^ '^'" *^^" '•^^"^'t "-t the letter be read in its m ! Ernest Pacavd 409 witness the part is *ia fallows : pucines, June 18th, 3891. for me, on one elections, if you r aufhorize you has any left, to H once through no difficulty I tional endorser 'd aa I like to living this, in I shall receive ?h the maker t pay it when >n my return unread con- read in its Mr. BHque :— •wording .„ Mr. M.rcS iX * """""' '""' "" *''*" "»« '" l" •!»»'. •«■ i/on. il/r. Jus/8t"« ye«^ ;_ There is no necessity for tl,at. The mtness.— of them for the info;:l:w lt;t ^s" n ^°^ '"" "^^^^^^ A note of the 28th Feb. Union Bank, «5,000 -paid when due. ^^r..MltetZ\^:'Z:^^^ - P^^^ on the Oth May, at the sam. ^nd :^i::z^^;'^ ^:-- r -'--' '^ ^ -*« ^-^> ^«^ ^-^ iTthT'' rt" ''^"'- ''"''• ^"^ "^*^ ""^ ^'^'" ^^- '^^ «^ *h« -- b-'^- 0th Mar h. Banque Nationale. *.-,.(XX). Paid when due at .he same ban.. h Apn Union Bank. ^,00.. Paid on the 9th May at the same bank. 5th Apni. Banque Nat.onale, ^,000. Paid by cheque on thesame bank, 14th May -^^^r^^:^:^^r^^^ the Le. m gettmg his claim for $298,000, which has bprnrnT^ T^ ?^* '' *" '"y- ^ '0°^ no part to by the former company, that 1^ MtJ^^^SS ^ ''°"'"'™' ^^^^^^ about It or their negotiations. ^ Kobitaille. I knew nothing whatever ^^tL7e:'::ZT:,::!:k^,:-^^^^ with the Banque I went ^o get the lette'r of credXflJ^.S^T if^^^^^^^^^^^ Chs. Langelier. They were mistaken. iTenttlZiL'T^^ discount with Mr. Webb, the cashier of the Snion Bank Thf '"f '" "'' ^«^ ^^ bank officials asked me to return for an answer at " o'cWk i K T '" "'' ™"'"'"^- The noon Mr. Chs. Langelier came to my office I h^ often IH J. '' r""""' ^" *^« ^^e^- accompany me to Upper Town. I Lked mT UuJTer to '' "^^ ^"""' ^^ «'^'»« *" Nationale, aa I was to receive an answer to a proZa t h i f """'^ "' *° '^^ ^^"^^^ and that afterwards I would go up wilh h m I Z ^J^'l^''^'^^ ^o them in the morning, the office, Mr. Langelier remtineS Tn the pTssa J and wh t'"T'' ^''°"'^'^- «" ^"^ering the door being partly open. Mr. Lafrance Z7m uZJ" T""'"^ '^'- ^^^^""^^'^ ^oom! and asked Mr. Langelier to come in and sft down ^ZTiT illT "* "'-^ ^'^ ^^^^^^ versed with Mr. Gaboury and Mr. Lafrance -certain I vwChM ^^T^'^' ^''•"e^n and I con- i I 410 Ernest Pacaud V \ It- i the letter of credit for %m (XH) if u, , ~""""="========r Thi« .8 exactly what took place. -^'ow, as regards the Banniie .?„ p , , *«P"y the cheque whe 1 iT""' *° "'^ '^« ^"-n ^ank ^or t ''' I Jeft with Mr Vain. . ''""^'^ '■'•°™ "^e. ^ '«rable,Iwishedto,^iveMr. Valli^reasnfficilr ^"'' '^^ ^^"^ '^'""""t was ^ I ««ked Mr. Webb if he had anv obi t '"""'" '" '" -^'— "t. «"d pcx,tit, so that Mr. Vallile wo M °'"' ' '''"^' ^^ ^"»W write It tl . ■"" ^ '""■ng to carry ont the t,.„™otfon. """ "™ >>» »»• qi.lt«. «.uiount to be placed at mv cr«ri,-f . k "™0"hn m t aled if nn^ j , * ' '"'• ''"'*■ " "'• ^'>"*'« - the eir:t:i:: Ernest Pacavd 411 "'lis representative; ftiik, that the Union '8 to got his money, ount it, would not IH',000 as they had f> not accurntely que du Penple to >'■ my recollection, oso'I to him to- ready spoken, one en I left with Mr. le would discount mid give him all ini that it wns a howe'- ^"'^ allmyforme^ranltiradprtri^^^ concerning matters perfectly foret ,^3 :!"'^':" °* ."''^'- ''^^''''^--^ ™>- ^-"^« ^ ^ ^° ^° """' ^"^ ''^ "-emam a prisoner, there for weeks. •• pi th.. : oTe L Id upo, r°" ,*: '""' """"^ '°'- '"• '"•""""" ■ '» "-• •»" 412 Ernest Pacattd ,1 1 ] ' U 0"ce. I stopped Mr \f • ^^''^'''''^^''''^'''====^- M Ihe hon,. of Mr r! . *«' """ ">•"><> w! h "^ ™"™ "1108 th, Tom .„d u T„„r Th" *"" P"""?'! Wend, f, "m o ' ? 1° ''" °'««'"<«1 "sn"! "o ivilhdrew t|,„ „„^ ^ ™™ ""> deposit. i„ hi, o»n „,„.," '"" > oemfa ,um w« «» '"e «„„,.h ,„ .^. , " """* '"■ ™ held "" ".one. Which hi;*- ^° '"■"■■" "" "counr,"' "f ' 7 """ """ * •«lr. Canenan • Thr^„ d- ^""■'®*uvert ; Chnmrv?„- McGreevy RJJ Ernest Pacaud 4ia »im:" Have you seen -»' the step you. have )romi8ed yourself, tell ' who should not be." •cier, the two Messra. he Commission that f custom since the Y holding a meeting he obtained signa- St. Sauveur, Lower '■ a certain sum. We n these were drawn, engagement we had t stated that each was only respon- that we had made 8 disappeared and fthe amount which 'hich he was held riends made notea horsed them wore ot appear in the 't; and I mention 'aaes, noneofthe posits were with- I then those who Mercier out of 'Use in Quebec "curred herein he amount has '• The amount elections and ter-petition of '• McGreevy • 5f election of contestation >oi8 ; L'IsIet, contestation of election of Vr n • i- »» ' ~ By Hon. Mr. Justice Jellc :~ Q. Were the deposits for $1,000 in each case ? A. Yes, Your Honour ''■»'Si nnn •!>.,» • I allowed in round numLe^ «lo ^ fo thrcon/"?' r ''' ' '"''^^^ *'«" •"«'•« ^^ expenses • ..nd about $1,000 which I paid for C^^lll^rilT'' f'f'''^' ''''"^ ^^ C t' affai, ;ap.rtfrom the counter-petition of Sir l^olphrc^ .n^ '^' ''^'' ^es Chal.n.r month 01 May subsequent to the negotiation of.'y note tL'eoM "'"'''"' "'"'^'^ '^^ '" '^^ I also propose, Your Honours togiveas nearlv as po sSl^ h T'' T"" '''"'''''' ^'^ this. nient in consequence of ,he declaration wh ch I ^1 vp . 7'"'"^'"^P""^i"g««tal,lish- Langeher had prenented me with the h.lf of h llttri in th'''~ ""' "" «'^"- ^^-'es tion to give exactly the value of the establish J.177 ^ P'"''^'"- ^ "''' ^ot inaposi- .10 w.th its management ; I have my par ner £ BelwirT' ' '"'^ ""''""^ -^'^^-- to C.H1 mattes, and I am only concerned^vith h7ed!tf ^'.1^ '^''"'t "^^'"«'^^'>' ^" '"-»- I.mve always understood from my partner that ouolf^''^''- ^ ""'^'^^ mention that about $40,(K)0 to $50,000. I was anxiousTo^ve this e'n 1 'T"' °"'^'' ^" ''« "'>- worth -h .at much, Z Wish it t^be wjl „ J^i^r ^ - t^T^^'^^fZ By Hon. Mr. Justice Jett6 .- Q. When did Mr. Langelier leave you • when was th -,.ttJz;^zijZtrr;:li:^t:^r~'^ to m speaking to my friends, v as when MM 't '"''"' ^'"' ' ^"^^^ '^'^'^y« a' uj d to receive the patron-age of the Provinciaf S.JJenimen:.'" '" "'^'"'' "^«" ^^ ---enced Q. Do you not recollect about the date ? A. No, Your Honour, but I can easily give it on Tuesday, when Iconf Q. At any rate, there is a deed of dissolution of n f J '"^ ''''^'-^• of proprietorship, duly registered. ^'''°'"'"^" °* P'^rtnersh.p, that is a new declaration A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. A., ,o„ ..y .W. „ .„.. .,„, .,. ,.^,, ,^ „^, ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^ Q. But such waa afterwards the case ? A. Naturally, we were certain of nrosn«r,-n,» „ I' r I it 414 Brnest Pacaud By Hon. Mr Justice Jm :~ A^rf„n";r: irsxir "°-'- "'• '--« By Hon. Mr. Justice Jette ;— Q. Before enteriiifiinnnf ii a, i A. 1 think on the same day Q. The same day a« the date upon the cheque ? Q- Of course you haven't trnf f k^ . A. No. .,„. M^. M^rieTa'cT" '™ '="=''"■» ^ • Evangelists, doth, depose and s^:- I produce aa Exhibit No. 96, a cheque of the 2nd March., 1891, upon the Caisse d'Econo- m.e de Notre-Dame de Quebec, Upper Town, for mm, to Mr. Pncaud's ord r and to be > charged to my account foho 20,633, signed by myseli and endorsed by Mr. Pacaud. I seems to have been co ected by the Union Bank of Canada, Quebec, and been placed to the cr "i , of hat bank. It I can judge by the entry on the back-it is T.rinted-the cheques seems to have been accepted by the bank, but the date of payment is not mentioned i.^'.L ^T.TTuI^^'^'^^''-^^''''''''^^^^ ^'^'"^ Caisse d'Econumie for *3,o00, dated the 4th March. 1891, to be charged to the san.e account, signed by mysdf a^^d made payable to bearer. This cheque also is endo.sed bv Mr. Ernest Pacaud and^I re d nn rttd'the hZ dr"'" ""' ^"^"" ^'"'•^ ^'" ^^"-^^' ^-^^-' ^- .-Webb,Ta:hier ' IcTn^ot on tb.'JnTM '^ r *'",". ^°? ""^ ^ ^''""^ *^"'* '^^ "h^^"'' *°'- «5-000 is charged against me And further the deponent sailh not. After the production of the two cheques by the Hon. Mr. Mercier ERNEST PACAUD, advocate and journalist, continues his deposition as follows :- By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :-~ Q. Was the $3,500 cheque drawn then, in the same manner as that for $5 000 ' A. yes, Your Honour. $4,00^'?^°" '''''' ^"'^'^ ^'°"' *''' ^'"^"" ^'''^ "P°" "^^ '^''''''' *'"' *^>000' «"^ ' the 31.t Ma' 7l OM-T^GtW r^? 1"/'"^'^' '''' «"' ^^'^"^•t April $1,000. ''"' *^''^""' '^•^ ^^'h April I had deposited $700; the 20th Q. All that at the Banque du Peuple ? A. Yes Your Honour, these i.re the nearest transactions Q. Are there any deposits in the other banks' sited^Jo" ''^ '"^ ''"''"• "^^' '^y ^- «-. -y Merchants' Bank book shows that I depo- --^^^^:^^C^:;::::^::^^ ^ -po-ed ...o in the Do Your Honours wish me to look in the other books ? ' By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— this sum of $5,000. *' ' ^"'^ ^^'''^' '" ^ ^"'^ opinion, might be dep. its from A. In the Umon Bank, for my current account, I deposited 1500 the 9th March By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— Den-UZ"*^ """ "° '■"'""" '" "- ""lo. "»- >•<». h.™ „„ ,^^ i„ ,,, ,„„,„^ A. I h..e locked thmugh .1] the book, .„,, i fi„d „„„, ^^J. Then, ,„„ do « .M„k .h.. .here .„ .„, „,,e, e,UHe. whieh „„« .pp,v „ ,,u A. I do not remember, you soo I havo nof u^^* • , Mercier gave me. I have n ixed up the mLr.. ^ " 'P'''**' ^''''""' «*" »he money Mr Bion; Iwas only anxious ab^:; rLT^tatlLT^^^^^ p'-a- possession to send Mr. Morcior in case he^a^ed or wrote me fo" k"' '"""'^'^ ™°"^^ '" ^y even on the day after the polling and foliowinrn t ,""''"'^' °" *'^'*' ^^c«"nt. «othatrcouldalway8co„.ply withL Me cielL ■''•'''' ^'^' ' '"'^°'*'"' «"'« had placed in my hands. '' ' ''""'■"' «^''"''' »^« «end for the money he two l^^dl2':XX^'' '■" '°" "^' •'^'^' '^ •-" '^-P -. the receipt of these . A. I keep no book, Your Honour. Q. Then you have no means of rendering account except by o .eque ^ A. '-ra„pay by Cheque, to order. thi..,,aina Why lUten able to accoune. Ernest Pacaud 417 apply to this eipt of these I to account. to the last cent, for the considerable sums which have passed thrr,n,rh ,>..;, a ^ ■ last « months, because almost all the payments were made itnlJ t "^ ''"""'^ *^« keep book«; of course my estabhshme'nt'h^t: fks whi^'h are'kLt b^' „''"' V° "°' speak of my personal accounts. But it is not only since thilaffX -t^ t^ ^ ^'''^''^'' ^ bocks, it is ever since I ceased to practise as a la^^r ?! t^^ZiC^^'^, Z^.fJZ By Mr. Beique : — Q. When was that? long we were in partnership. ^ ""^ Bellechasse, but I do not kn w how By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .-— Q. At all events, since you ceased to practice as a lawyer, you k.ep no books' A. I do not keep any books . I trust to my memory and my cheque, ente^^aZ'r^l'XZ:':^^^^^^ ^ ""^-taud thatyouonly been completely given up? A'^^'^ong. only alter those with Mr. Macdonald had A. Yes, Your Honour. only^coSiS'^^'X^^^^^^ ^"^ '''■ ^-«^-^. -hich were Macdonald ? ^ ' "' ""''' ^°" '^""'^ '•«<'«>^e a definite answer from Mr^ would^e^rrntlr^^^^^^^^^^^ arrange with him, I allowed no disclsfoHfan^ """^ '' ^°"'*^ ^^ l'«"er to at Mr. Macdonalu's disposal, a .dZt until LtLJ'^^r ' ^ *°^^ ^'™ "°' ^^at I was affair, I would have nothing to Iwihhil '"'''"' ^''^'^^'^ ^^ ^°"'^ ^'^'^ "P the Macdon^IdTfiS t^^T""' ^^^^^^'^^ ^^ ^o New-York, yon had not yet received Mr. A. No, Your Honour. try a^nd g^tt.rcZSsirr/"^^^^'" '^ ^^^ ^"^ ^'''^^ ^^^ «^- ^obns, so as to .nd tell trrethidtrCTpS??^';^ Mr. Macdonald «n de.neur. This'is why M A mstZ and% "'*T/ «^-' '^^'^ «nd put ing Wednesday. ^ Armstrong and I agreed to wait till the follow- Q. I understand that Mr. Armatrnntr h;,i nrvf „ York ? Armstrong did not accompany you on this journey to New. A. No, Your Honour, he went as far as St. Johns. Q. That journey took place on the occasion of Mr. Mercier's departure for Europe' A. .e. Your Honour. Mr. Armstrong's object was to obtain from Mr. Mercier before hi. 418 Ernest Pacavd Q. W.II j„„ .ell ,„, what mini,..,, „,„ p,,,,„. „„ „,^ ,^^_^ ^^^.__, H„„ ch».tX """'"■ "°°- "'• ^'■"■^°' »»"• "'. Hob*„. Ho.. Mr. B„,„, Q. Any other persons besides. A. Yes Your Honour. There wpr« Mh n Q. A certain number of friends ? A. Yes, I think that is almost all. Your Honour into U,. Metcier'. priv.tc car. I „„ JTZ^l f """' '"'" ""' '"''''™ «"■ ""' the ..me comeisation that we had had th. 1 u. '^"°"""8 "P'«f <1 ™ry mueh .ha. Ke w.. .„,i„„, ,„ Jm7m oi r olt'"' ' " "" "''"■^" «*'' "■»' "■ a,. i„te„.ie. forhim with Mr. Me " he/rirM "m "' "" " "' ""■" '° "«" Arm.t,„„e., re„„e«. Mr. M.rci.r said th. M, Z. °'"'' "" ■"" '"""""^ »'• car, that he won'd be gl„d to .ee him bol ,h^' .f """""'■' "" ">«■>»« '» "sit him i„ hi. n.a..er.a„ddi,c„„th!B.ie;:c e'u„ 2 he mT^' '° '" "IT'-'^'^ °""""- had received Mr. Ladamme. ietter, .„d rh^J^I'^^rrhr °°' """'"• ""'^' Q. No other answer than that ? inghimitwa. „.„e., to tr, JZ'Z^^Z^^^Z '" '»::;"^- ""-'•^e'' '-Meh- .h. Jo„„e,. A„, „y that . about the .^C'^Z^ZZl:^ '" """ '"^'"""""^ Q. ™^°"'P«I"« Mr. Mereier before the other minister, or a, one. pri..rr.tt: i-:-r ^^^^^^^ -- - »„ b. . ment in it. »uiwrigju car, there is no separate apart Mer:?.r:zr:ir:;:d;ei:;i:T:;et;^^^ ^' '°^- ^« -- -- •» -' A. Y«, V„„ Honour. , a.,.ed Mr. Mereier.„,i™ hi, .avo^bie e„,„ider..io„ to the Ernest Pucaud 419 Hon. Mr. Boyer, ins, did you speak "^^^^""^^ MacdonaM ehon.d begged n.e to do all I could to prevent it that LhL ^^^,j*'^^^»""^''» ''e done in case Mr. Macdonald declined to go besidt wLSav^Satfl S'^e '""'T ^"^^'^ '"^^^" ^^^^^ ^^'^^ -d myself bis instructions to tryVnTCep mlL^^^^^^^^ ""^^ '^^^ ^'^ -^«tance of" proposed to give to Mr. LaflamnJs'eUer ^' second j,lace the answer he deal with a new syndicate ? necessity -for the Government in that event to A. No, Your Honour. ■• .old fne ft". r^de'STeVhill^'rl"'' "'■^'"' ' """" "'■ ^"-1 »l»«. H, Mr. Thorn, M,. Cooper or Mr. Macdlri th.. Mr i, ' ^"'''°'" °"""' ""'■^'<''' <>' ,l,oM be well under wy when ho returned ? """ ''""°"' ""' "'« ">'"'«' .ue,„ .o aecep. .he -operU^.-^tuZt;; 'JrirM? ^ISerC'r^,;-- Ernest Pacaud me before leaving to see that the company was reorganized an,l ihaf f k county were paid and the works continued. I think that I u^^^^^^^^ workmen m his sense to his colleague., !.■ t Mr. Mercier never ,1" me any r-tuctio^^^ '" *'" negltSTtCtS^-f-"^ '^ --- M^^^rr tSCo. the. error^upoH J;:^"" ' """' ^'"' ^'^ ^" *"^^'''^ '° ^^^ ^^'"«'-'^^' -^" - 'ed inte the^:;;sisi:s^-?:;t£i;=---^^^ the presence of his colleagues, of the other ministeis declaration n.a le m have heard it.- I do not know iTan .ot swet S ^^''■'''. ?'" T"''"' "" *'"^* *^«>- "^ «* The evidence of the witness was adjourned till Tuesday next, the 27th day of October. J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commission. who was led into 1 day of October. EC, [ • i ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA, PfiOVIXCE OF QlJEUKi District of Quebec. Ix,msT W tit ofTe's?' °' "7/~-r •^'^"'^'"'•"^ ^"^ •^PP-"''"S the Honourable iX)Uis A JETTfi,.Jaflge of the Superior Court, tho Honourable Lours Fravcois GroRrFs Rarv JudKe of the Court of Qu.en's Bench, and the Honourable Ckar.es PEKRrD?rsov jZ' of heSupenor Court, Commi^Hioners to inquire into and report on the f^t3 iS A^ 27 r^T''''^'T°'"P""''^' °^"«"^ ^"'^ f-llowedtho transaction, made under tS^ Act 04 Victoria, chapter 88, m so far .vs it relates to the Bale des Chaleu:. Rail wa, Company 12th SITTING Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. .Tett6, President. ,, " I^'^is Francois Georges Baby, Ch ARISES Peers Davidson, Commigsionert. e.i.f^f^mlT''''- ""'"'''^ '"' ^''"™^"'*' ^P^^^-^^^ «^-° -d -"*--d his nersh';rJtrH!>n'''r'h!;''T''"T 'ft ""' I" '""^' *^^ *""^* ^"^^^ °»" "^^ di«-l"«on of part- nership w h Hon. Chas. Langeher, I have had a statement made by the clerk of the oeace ^'"^Sr r SetT^"'^^ °^ ^^« ^'-- -•^^^^ ^ P-^-e a. Lmtl/oi;: QuebrPnSgTom'ptr^" "^ ^^^'^^ "• ^^^-"' ^^^^^"^ *^« ^"-Po-ion of the pan/.'''' '"''"""'''' ''''• ^^'=^^'^''*'°" "f Charles E. Gagnon for the Quebec Printing Com- ^Jrd July 1882. Declaration ol E. Paoaud. J. Plamondon, J. Archer, junior, and A. J. Augef '"''^' ''''• °''''"*"" '' "^^ ''^^'^"'' '■ ^- Pl'^-ondon, J. Archer, junior, and A. J. 18th September 1884. Declaration of E. Pacaud and Charles Laugelier 2 nd m"'7 SJ ''fT''''' '' ^- ^- <='^^™" '^"d Wilfrid LauHer 22nd March, 1886. Declaration of R B. Casgrain and Wilfrid Laurier Ist December, 1886. Declaration of E. Pacaud and Ulrio Barthe 9th December. 1889. Declaration of Ernest Pacaud. I entered into partnership with Mr. Chs Lancelipr in 18S4 a,.A fv,; n wa. lor party reasons that we put Mr. Laurier's name in, but it was understood that 422 Ernest Pacaud m y^i "le same as ever aa regards Jiy Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .-_ Q- Up to April 1886? A. Yes. Apn,, the date Of .he next registration, in the list of deposits torn Since Saturday's sitting Af r nu furnished the money Concerning a .„„ „f «,„ „,,j ,„.,,. "^ ' "^^ •"'" ">« he P«i.l n,e. l.>n8evin. m IteoTJfJ^ ™« ''"' " ■"• f" •'!»"« on the It "f- "''"■"' "' <"«■ ^-er . r,U , :r„trnor2 - l^e etr-" ^^^^^^^ Q- Is the letter fyled ? A. No, Your Honour. ^y Hon. Mr. Justice Jem :~ t "■' '^'■"'»" ■"'* -1 •!.« you had draJnThe" ; """ '"^ """ '"""" "j you Cheque, were ..e„ no. pre.,„«,.jrrd%"::i.^7 "" ""'"" '^^^ "■«'"" 'vt.rH"r""---^~-p- you., „„„,,, Ernest Pacuud A2S ilaiiee in the deed to e as ever as regards fonoui-8,Iforgetto I had drawn on nie nofLiipraiiieHnd of his sum, that is ne, this one is not 'd the money. uestedmetostate' advanced to him le opening of the it he pai(l nie. >e Rivers, I was •evision of elec- i> of Sir Hector iJhamplain. Mr. ' Mr. Conzalve low that I have but for a paper id I think you tented by you ^; these two (Veil as I can ley? ' you asked rrn'T'r f ''''rr'f '' '"'^^ ^"^ ''■ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ »•"« «^«^- f-^oOOO. as being a depo.it wh.ch you had made, immediately alter having drawn this sum of *5000 A. The very day, Your Honour. upon'^its^IfT "" """'" ^"' ''"""^'' ''" ''''■'^"^ °' ''*'«' P"^^^ '^ *" ^- - if ^-n A. Yes, Your Honour. ^ Q. Afterwards the Union Bank collected it from the Caisse d'Economie ' A. Yes. orsever^lT '" ""' '"'"^ '"' '"' -d Mr. Mercier when he was away ; one only A Two, one for ir.,000 drawn on the Banr.ue Nationals on the 15th May and another for a hke amount sent by cable I think on the 3rd July Q. Did you keep a copy of the cable you sent Mr. Mercier informing him that thesum had been placed to his credit ? ■•" mai mesum A. No, Your Honour. Q. You think it was the 3rd July ? teloglllt '' "; *''r '"' " '""' '"'^'- ' "^"^ ^"^ '«« ^^-^ ^«'^^-- -- at the' telegraph office; as well aa I can recollect it was the 2nd July wbi.b ?'' ^"^f ''•" "'"" '° ^««P°»«« t° Mr. Mercier's request made|in the letter, a part of which you read dunng your examination on Saturday last ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. And this letter was dated the 21st or 22nd of June ' Q. Through- what bank was the first draft sent ? A. The Banque Nationale, Your Honour, May 15th. Q. And the second draft ? A. I think also through the Banque Nationale ? Q. Are these two drafts entered in your statement of accounts ? A. The first draft for $5,000 is entered, but not the second. Your Honour. Q. Do the accounts not extend so far ? A. It is not that. Your Honour. In another personal matter quite foreign to this one I beft^f mJ" ^;T " r"'' ''"' '^'"' ''-'^^ ^" "^^ °-'^'* ' I *-^ thel5.0^and to the best of my recollection I went over to the Banque Nationale to take up the draft ' Q. Then there was a deposit at the Banque du Peuple about the 2nd July, of $2 500? 424 Ernest Pacaud ^- Th,„ ,„„ dij „„. ,,„„„ . „^,^ ^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^ A. .\o. I made the note on (ho qnfu t ri'. V«^>^>- My intention w^^eoltotTifV;'''';- T ^"•"^ ^-'^ -' 'e^t it A. Yes, Your Honour. * r;"" """ "" "°" "■"'•' Who h.. .he W.„t ,o™, , A- IBc Hon. Senior Pdletier. Q. ^""'•«">.hi.ho„„,.he„o.ew„«,Wi,uh.r.. ?... .n« B'^"1"e Nation- ale, was due on the 18th May, and was paid on the 14ih May. Q. Was that the original note? A. It was the original, it liad not been renewed. Q. This was after the elections? nn ;t' ^l\^!^^^ ""\f '•'" ^^^"^ '°'""^' '"'■' ^^' ^'- *^«^«»«^- '^i"' Senator Pelletier, I see no other at the Banqne Nationale. Statement of the Banque du Peuple 88-1 note of *5 000 dated February 28th discounted and paid by the Banque Nationale ' ' Q. This was before the elections ? whenS 1 Jn Vr Vv, •^"' '"'= ^' ""'' '^''''•^""^'''^ •'>• the Union Bank, and paid when due, the lltb July. This ,s not a renewal, it is a note made after the polling. Q. Are these three notes the original notes, not renewed ? Marct 189i ^twa^nr'""' '^Z ^'T "^* ''"'^■'^' ^'-•'' ^'^- '^^ "«*« is dafr.l the.lOth Maich 1891 , 1 was dincounted and paid at the Union Bank ; it was paid when du ■ it is also ;:id";hr2 uT/ulfl ' ^'T- ^^^ ^^"' ''''' *' ^^^ d-ountedattheBanqueNluonlle and hotl on fb. /• r"""* '^^ "'^ ^^"'^'^ '* '« ""g'"'^^ "°te or a renewal ; that i not d?d not do so Hir ;, T 7-'T '" '"^'^ '''" ''■■^•^''""^^^ ^t the Banque Nationale, but I tleianmTN f , *'^'T""*''* f>y Mr. George Demers, .- -ker, who passed it at rtain ' Yefv" ^ ^ '^" "f «\the impression that it was a renewal buJ I am not certain... Yes, Yr . aonour, I state how that was. ' Q. Do you remember the date of the previous note ? A. The 2nd of March, Your Honour. Q. It was the 2nd of March ? A. Yes. Q. Made and endorsed by the same parties ? A. Yes, Your Honour, Q. Then there were two notes for $5,000, previous ro the elections, that of February 28th and the one you have just mentioned which was a renewal of a note of the 2nd March ? A, Yes. Q. And there were two for $.5000, and one for $3000, after the elections ' A. Yes. Q. Were the notes made previous to the elections used for electoral purposes, or for contestation of elections ? A. For electoral purposes. A , Yes, Your Honour. 426 £fnesl Pacaud rm 1 1 It 1 1 SI f il fl I 1 and ^pt:^^:v.:^^^^ -. . .,. ,~^Zrn .. deposits used fc.r the contestations v ^" ^^''' '^^ '^^'''^^'^ ^"^^ were discounted for A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Now, I understand Mr. PapanH ti^o* *i, . '"™ ""°'™l'*«"".f». -nuance, r.™t,/^l7 """"'»""■« ™»™., ,„„!;' A. I ace„„„.ed f„, .ve,,.hi„g .„,e„d .. the .„k.. ■ * " uZ'Ztr. T ""^ ""- "-"™' '■ '" -' ^»- ^.o.. . taken from .h«.„r„f,7TO'°Iv;,"""''"' """ ""'^ "» >'"" of «5 0(X1 which „ Q. Everything is mentioned ? A. All. A. Yes, Your Honour, on the 13th March. ^^^^-rX^\Ck^^^^^^^ that you had your interview with Mr. A. Excuse me. ThniBday, March 19th .o.Lr;riter:*,rsr„f 7- '^». • -•>»....„, h...„ „, „„ A. Yes, Your Honour. Ernest Pacaud 42T lion Bank April Ist were discounted for I you have given us Dhaleurs affaire, and' ito account in these loney : for example account, you have rom your paper or a the only sum not kve produced. 1 the receipts men- i from your paper wish to know is mounts you may c books ? 5,000, which was Iso required and I my account waa ne Minister left rviewwith Mr. •oken off, and lit because he f Wednesday, dicite ho was was a under- > him ? A. It was not exactly a commission but the amount Q. The amount he was to give for settling the affair ? A. Yes. Q. That is for settling his claim against the company ? A. Yes. Q. You then promised him to use your influence to promote the success of the avndic^t. or company he represented in return for the interest he offered you ^^^^^^""^ the syndicate A. Yes, Your Honour. ;jLicatr; ' "'"" "°'"''^'^" '^ ''■•• ^^^^^^^^ ^- Mess ^Thom and Voop/S A Mr. Armstrong did not say what services he expected from me • I could not i„d^. his intentions ;- if these services had been definite-but they were not. ^^ Q. Did he dimply ask you to interest yourself in the matter ? nanJ?" ^T' ^^^J^^' '"'^'I'^'j'' "^'°"'- Ho"0"r that he expected me to actively push the com- pany's interest ; I have no doubt .uch was his intention, but I .annot answer Zt^questLl Q. There was nothing precise on the subject? h»m Mr. Armstrong would get from the company in settlement of his claim. Q. What steps did you take to bring about the success of the new syndicate to obtain the contract for them, in fact to substitute the new syndicate to the old company ? ... i^' WT ''^°T^'?'y convinced that the matter was of public interest I immedi ,telv tn ti" K M L^""^ •"''""" '^' '"^^'^^^"^ "'■ '^'« governmetu to accept the prlZal male to them by Mr. Thorn m the name of the Cooper syndicate. I saw peLnally several of the ministers among others the Hon. Mr. Duhamel, the Hon. Chs. Langelier durTnrthe h^t par o the negotiations; subsequently I saw also the Hon. Mr. R-iux «n I d S aH I could to induce these gentlemen to accept Mr. Thom's proposal but to accept tat once as the least delay might cause ihe rupture of the negotiations. Q. I understand that in these interviews you represented that Mr. Thorn', bronosition was favorable and ought to be accepted ? proposition A. Yes. Q. Answering the objections raised 7 A. With the ministers I only brought forward the question of public interest • r nnn sidered that if they delayed longer to further the cc^.structiou of is i^ hvlVn^ one" would else undertake it ; that work to the extent of 11,000,000 would eoo r ,Tn Z Tf n f months slipped by without any one taking charge'of rnrono'woulT e w 1 „gt ur^dertake the completion of the road. This is what I put before them I also ^hiS emphasis on the interest theyhad in retaining the partys' popularity in G^e. 428 Ernest Pacaud pJ2r ':;:::: *;:- ::«; - — . ••»» ... ., ..„ ,_., on .he .ubjec. Ih.. „„ „„, except Mr LI. 1^ J , "" ' ' '"' "' "" "■'"« « «« «■• need. ""'^ °"° " ""= '"'«"»' "f ray parly wherever there _ Q. y ™. not Mr. Arra.tro„g te h„e p.rt „f .h,-. „^„, A. No, Your Hnnour. Q. Did he expect no share at all? A. He did not tell me so. Q. Or at least some favor or other when von h«H ♦.,• A. No .„ch thin, w.. „,e„tio„,d. ■""■ '" ''°" '""^- ' Q. Vet there „„ ,.„ <„ ,„,, „,,, ,^ ^^„ __^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^ Q. Then you made him a present of that ? he .« raeltetrrrirh'-lXlT': Tr- ^-- ' -™ "'■ ■•- ^n Which hM no i„.e,co„„e with hta .ine^ '" '"" •"' '"'""' '""^ ■"« ^ ""'I have .t»n.„.::j::m:,rr"°:.:hTr " "- --"^ - "■ - «'• w Q. For how much ? A. I think he asked me for |14 700 the negotiations. ^Northern. I am not certain as I did not continue Ernest Pacnud 429 ley for your personal lourably put on one all the more at ease or had received it. sttledalotofclaims ■al thousand dollars ; irty wherever there ands? 1 you paid ? lis letter in which ay me; but I have ■able sums since ? "t. but Mr. Arm- g that you ought had made? as a loan not a the St. Andrews d not continue 'or of the new A. I swear positively, Your Honour, never, directly or indirectly, Q. You never mentioned it to Mr. Duhamel ? A. Never. Q. Nor to Mr. Eobidoux ? A. Never. Q. Nor to Mr. Charles Langelier ? ' A. Never. ^ Q. Nor to any other ? A. Never. Q. You never told Mr. Garneau among others ? - Never Your Honour, if I had told Mr. Garneau or any of th. minister it wo„W have spoilt my negotiations instead of assieting them. mmistei-s it would Q. Have you calculated exactly the amount you have given to Mr Ph r <.n„M;„- ,j you give the total amount received by him ? Langeher ; could A. I could not do so now, Your Honour, without making a statement of what I eav*^ as a gift and as a loan, or what I paid to him for what he had disbursed for n'e fir that day and Mr Langelier gave me a cheque for «500, on the Cais.e d'Economie wS I paid^hun back later on, one of these sums is included in the sums mentioned ™„ my state Q. Had Mr. Langelier any other claims against you besides that sum of $500 ? A. There may have been in the courso of our transactions. I only remember that in particular at the moment, but if the Commission wish me to prepare a statement ... Q. I find in the statement you have submitted to the Commission, among the entries rcirrtS'^'^'^^^'^'^"^^"'^^" *^^ ^-^"^ '- Peuple,asumofUpa-r A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. A sura of «200 deposited for Mr. Langelier at the Union Bank, a sum of $500 naid for him the Fortress Hotel Company ; $17.60 paid to Mr. Morin, and' on the 4nd Ju" a note of Mr. Chs. Langelier paid for $1,600, which makes in the statement of the Bannn« duPeuple, a sum total of $3,235.83; at the Union Bank, I find a cheqrdLoVit^^^^^^ BanqueduPeuple to the credit of Mr. Ch.s. Langelier 'for l«.O0Orarh.M che u-fl^oS also deposited to his credit pt the Banque du Peup-o ; I find on the s.me day. July lltTa sum of $500 to Mr. Chs. Langelier, and on the l.Hh August a deposit left in his ha ds of $500. I think you sa.d concerning tins deposit that $200 or $300 were given back later on ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Which makes in Union Bank cheques a sum of $5,500 ; less the $300 he returned 480 Ernest Pacaud I A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. --i th. .„. paia between the 9th of May and lOth August . A. Ihere is a deduction to bo made Your Rnn all the sums I had advanced to Mr. LangeT^er pfevLr," . ''' '" '^'''' ' --P^'ulated for 12,072 and a few cents, which I cash d onrt", ''' '^" ^'^ ^' ^ cheque' produced, I have only kept account of the money dven t^M '"r" '" '''^ '''''"""''' ' ^-'« transaction., of whtt he paid mo back • as ZtZ r ^'"^'''^'■' °°* ^^ '"^ other hac. lent me and then I remember in Ma^ ^ ZZ 7'^'' ^'^^^^ ""'■ ^-^«^- which was the total of sums Ihadoreviou.lv a^vlo T "' ^''"'' '^"'^ '^ ''^^ ^'ents amount was put to my credi. in my banktct ' ""'^' *'" ^^^'^'l^^^ -^ ^he Q. Then of the $9,000 in Vound m.^i '""'"'^^^'^^"^'^*^-'<^--Mr.Langelier,$..572? A. About that, Your Honour. Q. Then to return to the month of Ji l Q. I find this from the entries I nsk th considerable sums you advanced to Mr Chs lLZTT '° ^'""' ^°"' '^"^"''°» *« the space ofthreemonthsyou advanced him abo ^ 1^^^ '■ ^ ^^at in the I6,G00 of the 19,000. My object wa« to put thL T^' "^^ ''^ ^^« ^^^^ of July alone somewhat surprise, at the advances you mad! himT '" '' '"' '' "" "°^ ^^^ ^^^^''^ A. I think there is a mistako Vm.^ tt Honour will allow, I can mare all::^^^^^^^^^^ ^''^-^ «- Your Q. ^-h-dheverygiadtohaveastatementoftheadvances? A. I am obliged to go entirely by the figures Your Honour gives me Q. You can take the statements and veri'v fhn ,• u Banquo du Peuple, there is the item 88-5a « 'is 23 T'L * ' ^'" ^"*^ ^'""- ^* the *17.60; and 88-120. |,,^. j„ .^e Union Bank acoT..'*''''" ''■''' *^«« •' ^^'^i. 89-8, r,00, 89-8 fl..300. and,89.14. $50.^ Im "h T^ n ' ' '^ ''^™ ''-^' *3'««0' ^tem At the Banque Nationale .here is iter86.ri5^;^ "1^ !.'^'"" ''' *^^ ^^-'^ '^-^ sums you will reach a total of «8,991. ' *^* '^ ^°" ^^ these difierent A. I do not know if mv fitrn-™ n>,. n i<.fc*,,l tl,e B.n<,ae N.ti„„ale, K65.40. Now Ernest Pacaud 431 fay, I recapitulated give me a cheque le statement I have >r, not of my other i'hich Mr. Langelier -^72 and a few cents lis cheque and the igelier, $2,572 ? that month, you •00 in money, and ;t. attention to the *• e. that in the ih of July alone ot Mr. Langelier 8 not Your e you. At the 3a $500 : 88-41, i, $3,000, item' 300 given back these different !ie Banque du *i565.40. Now .h.. he h«i „o. Ihe courage to ..Ke S'.Ty ^ Jv.^™ ^<""« '» '»""" "" "-'"J. l.e couM/ind other me,„rS„M?.^,^'°l"rT°'^ * '""■■"'• "">■ "'' "'«« he came to my hon.e, I „„ ilUt' tl lur t h "'°' •"">■ '^"■" " ""« ''w ""erward, «ih„,. „e tha"; he .« ..lii^g «™i„"rr„ ztVet:°L!r,>;:; z "• '"'°~' to get It. that when the $4000 not- fell dnp >,« ^ .,i,j i "'^'^""^"' »" ^et, that he was certain his property. I told him that 1 1 d nor^ndore ts^T^^^^ r/tT ^^'J' !'°" "" ^^^'^ '^^ said to him. " I will not go and pat my name again in the brnk« / f '" '^^'^ ''"• ^ my name from all the banks A« I f)n Lt .Jl -f * -^ '^"' ''''«"* *« withdraw for Europe, I wisht sSe atl n ^aS S^^^^^^^^^ ^!''- "'^^ ^^P-ture you can pay me back, as well, if yL mui: 5:^ Xn ,L ha" sVd yC2'° t ^'^ ^'^^ '' had your signature and note." ^ "' property, as if I .. .h^; ml«^"''"'" "' """ '■™ ""■ -»- "> -'ve » much money .. ,„„, <,,^„., A. No, Your Honour. advance^:o hL^r ''^ """'^ *" "^"^ '' '' ^"^^ -convenience you to continue to make A. Yes; he said it was a delicate matter. wo„,?hr:i:7hrw^e.rtr^^^^^^ was said that I can remember. ' "*^ nothing so particular Q. You said nothing to make him understand ih^t nr,,. * • , ^-hioh put you in a p„Ui„„ .„ .d.ance ^«.'^^,^ll,TL LmZtT '""' """" ""^ j«.t t itep! .t"i»„:iL'rhrri: "'^ci^'f''" ,t\ ""•' ■""■»«'• '™»* mention .e.e„l who ha.e ^P-.^ed.MACufrmertl'.l^nwT""'''^ '"",«"''''' important a tranaaction now that the matter hae bee". "eveS. '"'"™'"'"' "^ .dvatetht"Lmotertn7r ""* '° '^■- '""^'""" ■"■""" ""• P-od or did you .e : L^riiT.trrj^z:rr »i'r:n".^rrr"''':'T'--''- rendered account with all my cheques. ' "^ *'°''^' ""'I ' ^ave 482 Ernest Pacaud A. Yew, Your Honour. Q. You .poke of it to Mr. Langelier. Mr. Duha.nel, Mr. Robiduux even to Mr. Garneau ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Once Ht least ? A. Yes, Your Houo- r, Q. You also wrote to Mr. Garneau ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. During the visit you paid to Mr. Garneau what did you say to hin, on thin subject , regreted tL^ tr:: "o^ Z rvTZt'; iTZf" H'^ ' ^^".^^- «""-" ^^^ ' "'"^'^ that Mr. Tl,o,n would return to ZZ dis onZl 7' ^''^ ^''■- '''^ ^^^* ^ '^^^'^ to him : " this would be disastro,^ I ?« ^ , 31''^ " ^'"" "^ '"' negotiations ; I s,ud " this enterprize, if you lose that f Mr Cooper Mr G'arnr"'"" ""'J"! '° ""'^^*^^« dispute what I said, that the only objectioTwLKn^H.vT ^"^^^''^'^ ^^-^^ he did not trifling but a very important maCoX^tn^^:^^^^^^ ""^ '"".^'^ -.- - to do with an important enterorize in hk n^n 1 ? ! Mr. Mercier especally as it had settle this during^Mr. MeSH no VireZnTo^ne be^t ? ''' ""^^ T ^"^ '^ ^^'^"'^ him : " But you know well that von will please £ MeroW if "^J- ^'^''^ '«^^'™' I ^'^id to " of Jthis railway in his county and if Z see haf th! wnt '^^"".^""^ ^^ ^"' ^^e building "been waiting two years for their l^e Te nai. n .r" °' 'T ^•'"^*>-' ^^o have " the least doubt, why not cable o 1X17 o'ask him hr^f ' ?'"' '"' ^' ^'"" »^'^^« I swear th. that is the substance of .^.f::Zrl;:n iZ ':^.^TZZ:''' ''^'^' Q. Have you a copy of the letter you wru. to Mr. Garneau on the subject ? A. No, Your Honour. Q. You never told Mr. Garneau that vou had a ner.nnal i..f»,„ * • i. • immediately decided? Pergonal interest m havmg the affair Q. Will you explain in what capacitv vou went fn hin, o= .v or had some interest in it. ™' *" ''^ ^^^ represented some one A. I represented myself as a friend of my party, bavins at b^nrf fV,. ; . . . party in the district of Quebec, and that I considered TvfuW be dl . ?"'" °^ "^^ ra iway were not built, that we would be exposed to lose e 'tw cZtie? t' I'di' '': use exactly those terms I may have given these reasons to Mr Ga.La^ iL! ; "°* that that .8 what I said to justify my addressing him. ' ^^ »™P'-e88ion Q. Then you never allowed him to see your personal interest in the transaction " ^^A^Z^X^::^^^' '^"^^ '"- *" ^--^- -^ P— ' interest in any Ernext Pacauet 488 ; you set to work to ven to Mr. Gaineau ? m on this subject ? laving the affair 'sented some one , . J. Did you ,vor Wl Mr. Ar™..r„„, ,h.. „, ,i,e hi„ ,„ „„<,„...„a „,^t.,i„^ „, ,^^ A. I don't think so, your Honour. .ndi?;;irn"at:^usrb?srti:dt"'^^^ - going^ot/e:;u?rU:^f rknowTh^fr^''^'.^ ''°'^^^^^'^^^"" ^ ^^'•^^ ^^-^^ o^ was me if the affair wa. put u'Sh" I a'"" No ' ? f k' '' '° ""^ '^^*'''- ^^'•- ^ebb aske^ " not theman to cause so mpftant In nnZ? i "^ Vt"* '' '' ''''' '° *°^ ^^- "^^'^'^^^ is I may have spcLen to Mr. S in th^tsense ^ ^"^ " ^'" ^° ^^^' " ^ -'•'^^ *<> ^^at effect. amou'ntf^ourdrpaXStr^'yo^wr: '"r^^'^^T ""'''^'^^ ^" ^^^^ ^^^ enable you to nmkothes; payments? ^°" ^^^« *'°""*'»^ °" ^he result of this matter to A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Thou you told Mr. Web. that this was an affair which concerned you personally . himfhelXrn: tX^tZ^^^ ^ ^ ^"^ - show was disposed to negotiate mrpapTmvlVtf: .'"'' .'T' ^'^ ^'^^^ *°'^^ ™« ^o waa a money question. Thl^Td hhn '' In Im '' * nl''°"^^ °h^''"^«' ^ut it " here is a list of my notes you wil take tlT V''' Zu ^'^^^ "° "^""^^ *° disburse, 'become due at different tiiscTne at onlr^^''' ^°""''' ''^'" ''"'' '^^^ " months, you will pay my no '; rd' the bT ^ T" "' 'T "^"°*^^' ''^•"^ ^* ^^ree " not to withdraw II balance" nt^f^ a e na d " iL^JiT'' V '"' ' ""' "^" ^ ^^P^ Webb of the payments I had to make '^ ^ '''''"® *° '^^^^ »« Mr. Q. Have you kept that list ? A. No, Your Honour. Q. Waa it the same list that you shewed to Mr. Armstrong ? duced : iirth?srmi:r; far;^ducer ' -'-'' ^''^ ^^^ ^'^*«-- ^^^^^ ■■ ^* ^« p- Q. That list contained only the notes you had at the Union Bank ? my name either as maker or endorser • anrl T wa i . ^T^"^^^' ""^^ commercial paper with 28 Ernfst Pacaud Q. Did thi« ,i«t contain all the na.es which appeared on the notes you have produced ? menflIr;:iM''w?bb™'°"°"''^"" statement I have produced were on the state Q. Are you sure that the list you shewpd Mr a ,,«<.♦,„ shewn Mr. Webb ? or were there tri^ts^eparedt ' ""' ''" "™^ you had already A. I onV required the list for one purpose which I have just indicated. Q. For Mr. Webb? A. For Mr. Webh, to induce him to account notes for me and attend to my bill« then Q. If you had shewn it to Mr. Armstrong it must haye been the one already prepared . A. I thmk It must have been the same list. Q. And it has been destroyed ? ^^ir.t.'::Z::^:.,,^J^^^^^^ -t carry out the business for me; I Tho^.^.s:^iJ:::3f:ir^rLlrTj^*°-^"'"- ^* *° -«p^ ^^' with Mr. Thorn and Mr. ArmstronJ'dirvou Z! ' ^ ' ^'"'' ^°'^'' '" "^"vei.ation with Mr. Garneau ? ^^'°^*'^°"^' ^'^ ^^^ '«'^ve your carriage and go to speak privately do noteitfgSrourof 1^^^^^^^^^^ iTat'"" °' '''''^'' ^^'"--- «»*^-^- I of a carriage to speak to^r alerthft my celLThrb"'""" ""'T'^ ''''' ' ''' -* own impression is that I did not ^et nut "^tf ■ u ^^" so^newhat shaken, but my pavement and joined me ?n the caSlge °' *« ^^''"''^^ ^ut that Mr. Armstrong left the Q. Then you did not speak to Mr. Garneau under these circumstances ? A. No. Your Honour. Q. When the Order in Council accpntintr Mi. "n,^™) • . of it did you not ? ..nd at once ? ^°"'P*'"^ ^'- ^°"^ « proposition was passed, you knew A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Did you at once attend to neeotiatinir the 7^tf„, ^r j-^ , . . consequence .f this Order in CounS d fMrArmYtrn ^ * ''^"''^ ^'^ ^^^" «'g"«'«""elf take the fir«t steps A. n wa« I who did everything connected with discounting the letter of credit. Q. Was the letter sent to you, or did you commence negotiations without it ? ofthtxfe^asJrrDZLr^^^^^^^^ beard here say that he had s;nt mete ,etL;;;cr:JitJdIa^^^^ """ '^^'''' "^^^ ' bank, is in error. I do not doubt his sincerTtv r knl . ^ad taken ,, receipt for it at the believe, but he is certainly mistaken now'p'os ttTswe^^^^^^^^^ '*"*' "'^' '^ ^'' ^^ credit nor the paper on which it was writtZ ^''''^^^^ ^^^^' *^^* ^ ^e^^'' «aw the letter of Ernest Pacaud 485 ! business for me ; I s passed, you knew Q. Then you interested yourself about discounting the letter of credit, only in a general manner as representing Mr. Armstrong ? . j- *" a general A. Yes, in his name. Q. You first went to the Union Bank ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. What happened then ? The bank cashier had almost promised to discount it but afterwards wished to divide the responsibility with the Banque Nationals ' A Yes Yoi.r Honour. I foresaw an obstacle to the negotiations as regards the Treasury ^r;lT ; . ''^ ^™^'"'"^ ''-'"'' "« '-'' ^' -^- <''--^ ™ presented ^sened that there were not sufficient funds in the Treasury to settle it, to wait till later on That s how I foresaw this objection and told Mr. Armstrong to tell the Government when 1 sobjecuon wasspokenoftohim, that he was not anxious to have money but wo d accept letters ol cred.t which he could readily negotiate. On that account I took stens^t the bank to have the lettere of credit discounted. ^ Q. With whom did you take these steps, alone or with Mr. Armstrong A. I was alone. It was particularly with Mr. Webb that I Q. Did you not go to th. Banque Nati;nale with Mr. Chs. Langelier to discount 175,000 ? A. No. Your Honour. This is another If Your Honour will permit me I will tel you exactly how the affair took place, because I knowit has been asserted here that I wn with Mr. Chs^ Langeher I went with Mr. Webb to the Banque Nationale f. a.k if The a"o^ for $7o,000. As well as I remember we spoke to Mr. Lafrance, and he sent for Mr. Gaboury he president We repeated our request and discussed conditions, how the matter wl' to be done, whether by means of a transfer which the Union B nk would rktolh BanqueNationaleor If that bank wouldendor. the letter of credit forToo O^ad es ed to the Union Bank, or whether it would be better to ask for a new letter oedloh^ or er o the Banque Nationale. to replace that to the order of the Union Bank. T Iffie L, o lie Umon Bank requested Mr. Webb and myself to return at 5 p. m. for an answe We left. In he af ernoon accordmg to his daily habit, Mr. Chs. L.ngelier came for m.3 after office hour, to go for a walk together or go tothe cluh, because I must remark, almost e y d^ If h did not come for me I called for him to go out after our office hours. I told hi li would go out with him If he would accompany me to the Banque Nationale, where 1 1 togetananswertoaproposallhadmade, with Mr. Webb. He agreed: w^ entered Z bank^he remaining in the passage. On opening the door, Mr. Lafrance whose chair faces it aw Mr. Langeher. at once reopened the door which I had closed, and a.ked Mr. Lange Her irZ mt: . /' ^"^'"^^ ^"' ''"^ ''''''' '""• ' -'''' *^^* I discussed !gn IX! , H r ' T, '""'^" "' '"^°""*'"^ '''' '^"«'' °f -^dit -which the bank officials said they could not do. I talked it over a little to induce them to alter this dedsion ' but they would not In this case I told the bank that I a.ked for the disco nnMr Armstrong's name who was very anxious to get his money. 486 Ernest Pucaud Q. This was after Mr. Webb's .olubal to discount the iKiOfVrf^ i h , .■ you to undeistand that he would ? W«JO,0(J0 latter of credit after giving A. Yes. Q. Do you ren-ember why he refused after hav,ng pro«,ised to do so 1 by itfiat;er!;ot t?d:r '" "'^"'''^"' ^'^' '^"^ ^^"'^ -« -^'-«. ^"t had been advised Q. He gave you no other reaaon ? A. No. i,„X' """"""' ""' """ "'"" '-" "•^ "■"■ """ '■« —"ere. .he .„„.„«<,„ lettei, of credit; h. h.ld mycheque, L I.U * '"'°'"'°"'"'""- "'""'" 'he ban... . neve, »de,..J.hrrWtLiar,Zta^^^^^^^^^^^ Q. Not dishonourabJe but irregular? Q. Or even irregular in the transaction. Q. He himself has said that his boar, I fnunA " :. the board thought so after the explanat on y< u ^ve .Tpr o^ 7"'" *""""^'°" " '^^* to you. The board considered that waa not a iLlhL ^ '^ "''"*'y ^*« *« "'"^ A. Mr. Webb said that this is Z h iL'^Z^TtZ b ^^ 1'"'' "' ^'^^'^^ said that the money was for me considered f h«7 „ fi "" ^*°'' ^^^^^"^ ^^en I .« .o ., p.ia .„ ^e, .>,« k„„:ir;sxt jn t^'eT'^iTit :;: »■ ^™"'"« Q. They refused the discount for thai reason ! ««n.ac.,o„. A. Yes after that he came with me to trv anH tr^t it- a; . j Q. After these two refusals of t^e Unil^ ra!kl fZ ' "-^"^^-^^tionale. the llOO.O(K) letter of credit, did you try aTywh^^^^^^^^^ ^'^"'^"^ ^'^^^'^-^^ '*^ <^--nt A. I think I did. Q. Where? A. I think at the Caisse d'Economie Notre-Dame. Q. They also lefused ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Did you try elsewhere ? A. No, Your Honour. Q. After having tried the Caisse d'Economie. you left f hn l«.f„. f ^ Bank fur collection? '*' J^°" '^" 'oe letter of credit at the Union A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. After this letter had been left for colleoti,.n nf tK» tt • r. , cheques drawn on this letter discounted ? °" ^'*"^' ^'°" *"«^ *« g«' ^^e A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You succeeded in getting discounted >.na af tu d ■», . the Banque du Peuple ? «'«c"»nt^d one at the Banque Nati,.nale and the other at Ernest Pacaud 481 !r of credit after giving J so? but had been advised iered the transaction g in the transaction iness... went for the scounted at the other ible... ir transaction " that loney was to return the letter of credit ? nk lawyers when I e to Mr. Armstrong B transaction. aBanqueNationale. ;ionale to discount redit at the Union )U trie! to get the 3 and the other at A. Yes. Q. On not^s endor-^ed by Mr. Vallifeie* A. Yes. Q. You tried to get the third cheque discounted in Montreal ' A. Yes. Q. At the Baiique du Peuple '! A. Yes. Q. They refused? A. Yes. Q. With whom did you go in Montreal (to the Banque du Peuple) to get the cheque discounted, alono or with some one? - f / e.-^"- "'o uutJHuo A^ I went to see Mr. Bousquet, cashier of the bank, whom I met here at their branch office here, and I explained the transaction to him and he thought his board would discount It. H3 induced me to accompany him to Montreal ; we left by boat ; I wentl^ the bank in the course of the day with Mr. Armstrong. Q. You were with Mr. Armstrong? A. Yes, I was not with Mr. Armstrong from Quebec to Montreal. Q. You went with him to get an answer? A. Yes, I went with him for the aribwer. Q. No one else was with you ? A. No, I was alone with Mr. Armstrong. Q. You did not try to get the cheque discounted anywhere else in Montreal' A. Yes. Q. At what place ? A. Not I myself. I did not try elsewhere. Q- Who tried to get it discounted ? Mr. Armstrong ? A. No, Your Honour. ' Q. Do you object to state who it was ? A. Well I have no objection if the Commission wish it. I am bringing in the name of some one who only did me a favor. "ame oi Q. Is it some one from whom you asked? A One who simply asked me what had brought me to Montreal. I told him that I had come o negotiate my note endorsed by Mr. Valli^re and guaranteed by a cheoue of Mr Langeher as commissioner endorsed by Mr. Armstrong, that Mr. Armstrong was very" anxious to get hi, money, that he had been paid by a letter instead of money. ThislrsS said : "I know the Montreal barkers better than you do, give me the papers and I So my best to get them discounted." Ke did not succeed and returned them to me. Q. Then you hail a third note endorsed by Mr. Vallifere ' A. Yes. Q. For the same sun ? A. Yes I expected to repeat the same transaction at the Banque du Peuple Montreal as here at the Banque du Peuple and Banque Nationale. Montreal, Q. I must ask you the name of this person ? „ f^' •I^lr^^I'" ^'' ^^'*^°"*- ^f'er receiving the refusal of the Banque du Peuple I went with Mr. Armstrong to the Government Office and then t„ Mr. Robidoux' house Sr. •r I /I! 438 Ernest Pacaud n A mstrong stayed .n the carnage and I went in. Mr. Robidonx was ill, I went simply to call upon h,m and m t:,. course of conversation, ho asked me what brought me to Montreal. If Ihad come to Montreal on bu.sin.ss. Then I told bin. all 1 have just said, about he w I ha. met Mr Bousquet m Quebec and that he had told me he had every reason to believe that h,s head ofhce would do this business ; that I came thinking to succeed and that Mr Bousquet answered that his board was not willing, llien I said Mr. Armstrong was some what discourage.!^ that he was wi.h me at the door, that he had coimted on iZraoZ Thereupon he said : '■ I know the cashier of the Banque Nationale, he is one of my pZna iTnn'.^- '' T r ^^T'"' ^ "^" '"" '^ ^ '^'*" "^^«^'"'« '^'"^ " I '«" the papers with him LvinTthattT "":'*°"'7!."''.'^"''*""''" Q"^^^^' '"^ ^«»-"«^ '»«'>>- document saying that he had not succeeded with them. Q. What papers did you leave with him ? «nH t ^^ "°*;^^"'^°'-^e'l by Mr. Valliere, with the letter from Mr. Webb to Mr. Bousquet. Irm! ir*,^ ^'^"''''^"'^^^^^'■•■^•^ commissioner, endorsed by Mr. Armstrong, the same documents already produced at the other banks. It was the same DUbIDCSS* Q. Did you explain to Mr. Robidoux how you canie to have Mr. Langelier's cheque' me tt"th?banl°'tb^i"; '* "'"" fTv,^^ Armstrong, yhat Mr. Armstrong had accompanied me to the bank, that he was at the door, that he was anxious to have the proceeds of the Q. You left the documents with Mr. Robidoux and returned to Quebec' A. Yes. Q. He did not give you back these papers till he himself returned to Quebec? • A. Yes. Q. Was it long afterwards ? Several days ? Till Mr. Robidoux gave you back the paper. ? A. The first time he was here. Q. Do you remember whether it was a week, or 2 days or 3 days after ? A. I am not sure. It must have been... Mr. Robidoux was not away for very long at ctrtair'" ^'"'^""°*h''"«b««"'"0'-«'hanaweek. Perhaps 3 or 4 days. I cannot be Q. In any case, he did not return the papers by letter. He gave them to yoi, personally? A. Yes, personally. Q. What did you do then with this third note endorsed by Mr. Valliere ? A. I kept it for some time and then sent it to Mr. Webb. Q. Was it discounted later on at the Union Bank ? A. No. I did not try to negotiate it elsewhere. Q. Was it sent to Mr. Valliere or destroyed? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Did you try elsewhere to discount this third note before it was destroyed ? A. No, Your Honour. ■i|i i- Ernest Pacawl 489 1 to you personal ly ? real ?^" ^"^ ^°" ''"'"' " *^'"' ^"^''"'^"^ ^«"' *« "'^^e" beside- the Banque xNationale in Mont- A. I do not know. He only said he did not succeed in getting it" discounted third^nolT "*"' *''■ ^''"^''''' '" ^'"'"''"'^ ''"""^ ""*' P'''°^' ^°' "^« negotiation ol this bl« to Jv,t "°vf '■"'"«™b:'-- It « P^-^iWe that he may have come, we went as far ,v. possi- « 1 SI T «'''"« *" fI""'^-«'*'- I ^^ certainly not with Mr. Chs. LangeUer dSring of ti:^tt::Sir^s;""'™^^*^^- '^- ^^-^'^"^^ ^~^^"^ ^^« -^«"^*- A. Concerning the n.-.-.iiation am quite positive. Q. You went nowhere •. h him to negotiate this, third note? A. Nowhere, Your Honour. ftinnL^'vnf "^ 'V]"- ^*f""^«"f« y°» h*^« P^«d"eed you had expended out of the flOOOOO you expended in the purchase of your house, including the sum of $1,000 to the A. In all, I have paid much more than that. But it was-it is since my return. Q. I find only these different sums ? A. Yes, in the statements. That is the amount for that time, as I have it in the state- ments. Q. There are several sums. I find also 3 items concerning the McGreevy affair. TJierc IS an item of $500 paid to Mr. Geoffrion, item 86-11 ; an item of $4(10 for a note of ^'' !'.fn' t>™ ^^'^? ' T '*^'" °^ ^^'*^ '° P^y "^ ""t«^f Mr. Tarte and Mr. Ch. Langelier, Item 88-10. This makes $1,900. Is that so ? Now besides that you paid two notes of Mr SrL'Jl'o. , Tp'^ ' v'.rV' ^°- f ^^ '"'^ ^^'^ ■ ^°" *^'<^^ P""*! «50» to ^'- Valli^re, items .,t^ of *S ^- ^^'' ' '^"'^ ""''^ ^''^ ^^^" discouuted, would you have paid him a sum 01 $500 besides ? •' t- A. Yes. Q. As much as that ? A.*Yes. Q. You have also paid $2,000 to Mr. Armstrong ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. $150 to Mr. Carroll ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. And $150 to Mr. Deschfines ? A. Yes, Your Honour. w«r«^;/' *° nioney required for elections, for election services, apart from large amounts, were there not numbers of small items not detailed in your statement ? A. Yes, Your Honour, particularly, in rendering account of a cheque for $7,000 or $8 000 I do not know which. I put " election expenses $1,000 " and I placed in parenthesis" Godreau." 440 Ernest Pacaud ! . I do not think that Godreau's account could have been morfi thnn «f3nn t * <^ j ttang, I took no „cc,pt. ,t ™ .„ ol.c,i„„ .»„„„,, i g.,e him the money foTu '^ item ««,T''t' "'l" "'"".°' "■«»"> 0«1'»'". a™ i, »1,000 paid to Senator Pellelie, Xhri^io's -^r sirrtSr '"■ ''"— ^ "» ^— -<■ '- ^ A. Yes, Your Honour, item 88-7. M antheV?ime1' ""'"'" "'"" ' ''"' ^"'^ "^"^^^^^'^ *^^ -"^ '" ^h°- ^-u lent 13,000 A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. The very same ? ' A. Yes, Your Honour. Mon?mo?erc;:;:cUon°r"" ''"'"" expenses, I suppose, a sum of 12,000 paid for the ^.r.tv^^^' y""'"/^°°°"''- I ought to say, concerning this $2,000 note signed by M Ch Lange ler and endorsed by Mr. Tarte, which I paid, that I do not know wheSer I gave any fecial explanation of It when I first mentioned jt; it was the proceeds of a note placed to SecMon " "' "'''^ ' ''' '''"°""*^'- ^ "«^^ *^^* ^^^^'^ '^^ ^he MonSaorencJ Q. When the note waa due you paid it yourself ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. I suppose a sum of $500 paid to Mr. Geoffrion for contesting the L'Assomntion election, must be claased among election expenses ? Assomption A. Yes. I think it waa L'Assomption and Vaudreuil. I do not remember Q. Tliere was the 12.30 paid to Mr. Desmarais besides, I suppose 7 A. Yes, Your Honour. 1130 mLTo Mrrhf'V.^'T'r .'^'""°" '-'P'"'""' ^^ P^"^ '"^ "^"^^Pl^ Martin, item 8«-8 and *i3U paid to Mr. Choquette, but afterwards repaid by him ' . o »uu a favt Z2TofZ "' ""'• '^°'^"'"° "" " ''''^' '" * «"'* •• ^« -- '^^ ««-- i» -« Q. Not an election expense ? A. No. Q, The election expenses amount to about $5,775 ? A. Yes, Your Honour, if. Q. Will you give us a detailed list of the sums you have expended in contestation, of elections, giving the dates on which these deposits were made ? "n^esiaiions ot A. I do not quite understand Your Honour. of PlS.tZH'r^-'''^"' fv."1' '" ''"*''''' °^*^' amounts you have deposited for contestations that hr w , r"'? ^^-^^''^ ''^''' '''''' ^'^P^^^* ^"« "^^^'^ ' 1 *hink you said on Saturday that there we- -^ 11 contestations of elections, and you have added that of La Prairie. A. Yes ; 11 deposits in my name and the other in Mr. Beausoleil's. I dp not know ; in any case the transfer was made to me by Mr. Beausoleil some days afterwards. ^ Q. In each case it vvas a deposit of $1,100 ? Frnest Pacaud 441 hom you lent $3,000 i2,000 paid for the in contestations of A. No, the deposit was $1000. But in almost every case I added $100 for disbursements. , Q. That make $1100 in almost every case ? A. Yes.. Q. That makes a total of $13,200? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Could you give the date of these deposits ? A. Yes, Your Honour. I should be obliged to aj n.ly to the clerks of the different courts to obtain Q. You have kept no memorandum of the time when you made these deposits? A. No, I think not. Q. They were not made by cheque ? A. Perhaps that might have been the way ... I should find out from my cheques the date when I made these deposits. Q. They were made. I suppose, before your transaction with Armstrone ' A. Yes. Q. Tliis was also the proceeds of the discount of those notes you mentioned this :morning? A. Yes, after the 5th of March. Q. That is the three notes, two for $5000_and one for $3000? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. That sum of $7500 which yo-i drew on July 2nd was it by cheque or in money ? A. A cheque. Q. On what bank, if you please ? A. The Bank of Montreal. Q. Can you tell us where this cheque came from ? A. I shall aak the Commission I do not think I am obliged to answer... of course if the Commission demands it but I never understood that I should be called upon by the Commission to render account of transactions quite foreign to the one in question. I have shewn sufficient readiness to give every information in my power about the $100 000 I swear positively that this matter has nothing to do with it and I am ready to tell Your Honours in private and to prove that this is the truth Q. Was this your own money ? A. It was my own money in quite a personal matter. I can enable Your Honours very easily to judge of it after the adjournment. The Commission excused ihe witness from replying. . ,,*^\r "'•'■ ^,'';\"^f "t this draft for $5,000, or about that time, you made a note on one ot Mr. Morcier's blank forms to deposit at the Union Bank ? A. Yes, it was my property, I looked upon it as a discount. Q. So as to represent the amount you sent by this draft ? A. Yes. ^1 442 Efnest Pacaud «elf ?y t^'dilu'lIlVn^^ ^""'^ '" ^°- ^-^« audXi^al^^e you. charged the interest. ^ *^'^'^ *"'* ^^P' *^« equivalent of the discount, I Q- Do you remember when it fell due ? ' A. The 3rd or 6th October. Q. Of the current month ? A. Yes, Your Honour. i Q. Was it paid when due ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Was it paid by you or Mr. Mercier ? notetafi^of^.Sr'Slii'itd^ extra 11,000. The for the cashier told me personally that-thTS^adterpaid '""''' *'^ '^'""°^' Q- Will you explain why you made the note, for $6,000 • «5 000 w«., th« • . A. Because I haf' $inno „.. . ' ' *^® """^ required ? pondwithadr:fJiTadZrGr;i\ttttir /'r^^^ extra payment to make, which I cannot I 1^11^/ /v'"* '"^ ?'■ ^^"^^"^^^ = " ' ^ave an try to get Mr. Mercier to pay it. HS^ed the « irS V ' ?!! *^' ^'"''^ '^'^'' «"^ ' «hall said he did not recognize ^^is additiofof* oo Tpafd ftVnd^"^ T.' '^J' '''■ ''''''^' Q. Then you used «.0OO, the proceeds of this nT . '"""" .ouhadsenttoMr.Mereier.andlSttrrpr^^^^^^^^^ '^^ -- wasthedL^;t!rd':;:rtr for 16000. to provide the sum of «500 S'to nav Mr T 7 *^*^«°°°""* ^ 'nade the note J^Perhaps -eothersumthatldrorr^SrS'^'^:^^^^^^^^^^^^ Mr. Mel?e't:\T^r::^^^^^^^^ i-P'te of everything . of «5C0O ? ^ ''''"'l"^ '°' *5000- another of $3500, and you sent him a sum A. Yea. A. Yes. Q. You had left still $1700 coming from Mr. Mercier ? A. Yes. Q. You needed a balance of $3000 to complete the $5000 he asked ? A. Yes. '' n( Ernest Pacaud 448 wards reimburse your- [ had the .commercial ilent of the discount, I e extra $1,000. The irnished the balance, w the sum required? if this does not corres- tngelier : " I have an 00 draft and I shall una due, Mr. Mereier the dift'erence. ourself for the draft n's draft ? vere others and there Jilt I made the note scountofthe $6000 1 made the note for pite of everything ? 'ou sent him a sum I you have rendered ce in his favor ? A. Yes. But when the $5,000 draft was to be sent him, I did not calculate what I f^Jm whl'h " '71 "^''r> T:""' °''^^ ^''^«""*- '' -- ^^« Ia«t note hast blank form which was eft I used it for the sum he requested, leaving myself f^ee to use the inthridT ?r "*': t""-^'" "'•^^'^ '^ ^^*"^ '^ ^'^^ me,' accounts mghtome '^^^t:^::^^'''^'- '^'^^--^----Mr. Mercier-s privL affair, Q. You did not wish at any rate to be left without funds A. No. Q. You wanted to have enough to meet any claim ? A. Yes, exactly. Q, When you had had the notes for election expenses signed and discounted vou mtended to get political subscriptions to cover these notes ? awcounted, you A. Yes. Q. Did you start these subscriptions afterwards ? nn* tll^^''''''^r} ^^^\^^^^' '"""ey to pay them. I had some subscriptions, but I did not push them as \ had other money to pay the notes. . "ui, i um Q. Money from the $100,000? A. Yes. Q. Which went to pay this ? A. Yes, your Honour. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Q. Practically, you must have paid all the contestations and expenses of elections ? A but I wish to reimburse myself from the deposits. The deposits are in mv name and I intend to withdraw them to repay myself for my disbursements. Q. In cases where the contestations were maintained, were your $1,000 paid back to you ? A. Yes. Q It was your own money ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— We have no other questions to ask you at present. By Mr. Casgrain ;— certain 1^111'!:/^^''^'' **?** y°» ^'^'^ '^^^-'ge of the general organization of elec.ions for a certain district of the Province of Quebec, extending from Berthier to Chicoutimi? A. Yes. Q. Exclusively or inclusively ? A. As far as Chicoutimi inclusively. Q. And on the other side ? A. Prom Gasp6 to the Eastern Townships inclusively. Q. The five notes of which you have spoken, four for $5,000, and one for $3000 • were they all signed and endorsed at the same time ? . . u one lor »a,wu , were 444 Ernest Pacaud J,; before ? °"^ "^°^^ "* ^^^ «a™e ti^ne and those signed afterwards or Febl^-lsr; "' ''^'""'^ ''''' ^°- ««-^ ^- «^-0«« was signed on thedateofthe noteC. Q. And endorsed on the same date ? Q- A" the others ? the four others ' they were ■ "» "J «"<'<«"«1 hy other,, on the.ird;;t"orr'Z'.'s:'r'' "'- **'■ *"^ "«"" «'^^- •i^«' •"- -^o„ed A. On the same occasion, and ^ .^c^: fj? '" "° ''''^'^"^^ ^«*-- *^e *h-e notes of which you have Just spoken Q. Now, these note, were left in Senator Pelletier's hands v A. One of the notes. Q. One only? ^. The one I have just mentioned. Q. No others? A. There had been others, there were three blanks. Q. Where are they ? Meier'.SXr.'rHl*''8e»rr;r.'''''°i""~ '" ~ "'""■"<' ""en M,. heen paid .„d doe. no. aTp.'Lt^hr.tlllri.r S'X ^ '^'"' — ^J. * or what sum was the Other? Q. I do not know. It ,« one of the notes in question. A. In any case I submit. , Hon. Mr. Irvine objected to this evidence. Erntst Pacauu 445 die of papers and tell signed afterwards or he date of the note i.e. other notes although ion. le blank forms which- orsed afterwards when !9-9, and 89-3 were all 3 86-1. is a note Mr signed and endorsed idorsed by others, on signed and endorsed ju have just spoken, tor Pelletier's hands. plained when Mr. le third must have y- o this matter. hand?" ^K ''^h^'" ^"'^'■''',? *u*' ^'- ^'"''^' ^^^ ^'^^ '^''^ ^'"^"k notes in Senator Pelletier's hands. He shows me all the notes that have been produced and 8av« " Vw ^ ^ one of those blank form's left by Mr. Mercier, that you noUce whert I e' he lll^''' S other 18 represented by the «6,(.00 note of which I have spoken which lulled ll at Mr M.r cier'. request. As to the third it did not enter into thi. matter at all nt.r^n I '' was paid previously ; it does not enter into the statem^rol aLLtl. ' '" '"'"" '' By Hon. Mr. Justice Jette .•— Q. Do you know this ? A. I know there were other notes besides those produced which we had si^nprl anri t have paid ; I have not entered them because it was previous to thk ^ ^"'^ ^ des Chall'lr^ r'° th' ''""' ^^f ^'^ """^ '^' "^^^ ^ ^'S^'' '« ^•«'=«ive money in the Bale aes Chaleurs affau. These notes became due and were paid before and I do not hint t bound to give account of them to the Cc .iiission. ^'"^ ^ "™ By Hon. Mr. Justice Jett& :— Q. How many blank forms did Mr. Mercier leave : A. Three, Your Honour. Q. How many of these blank forms were used for the notes you have mentioned '> Q. To repay you for the $5,000 draft you sent ? A. Yes. Bank^fo^roo;;''' Th!:;"'' ^'""^ '^Tk 'l' '^ *''■• ^'^"^^^' °"^ ^^ ^^P^^ l^tl^, at the Union uank,tor*o,000. This note was paid by the same bank on May 9th. Q. You have not this note? A. My impression is that I paid this note by a cheque Annpvpd fn tv,^ ♦ paid at the same bank, on the 9th May. ' *^>"W» Hon. Mr. Irvine : — Ji/r. Biique : — ..2^^ ITT 7^'^ ^'^-"^'^^^ ^" ""■"" '^''"'^^■^ P°^'i«" ""^ transferred from ...e bank to another, but the first portion was entered the 6th May and from this dat« T ', , *° that the statements produced by Mr. Pacaud account for "e^XoOO iLu s trai sa^^^^^^^^^^ tl\Z .: """m'- "'"^^ ' '""^ *"«* ™«"''«-d, (I speak suiy trco rSo,^^^ but I am tho^ughly convinced from the examination I have mad. of the account he »T1T7 '';rT'^'^"'P^^"^^^ commenced on the 6th May A 11*; for *20,000 was discounted on the 6th May at the Banaue du PAi,nI» Ti,; . f ? •I rie Ernest Pacaud L$\ through the Ban,ue du Pe.ple. At a 8ubL..,Ln^ ^1 \ '^^'' ^^'"''^'^ ^^' ^ P^«ed placed to his credit at the T'nioa^kS^Xlr^ t ^1'"^^ ^' ^^e 1,0.:.. o was placed to his credit at the Union Bank, h" beg nl f om thi ' '"'' ^' '^' *^'^^ '^*' ^"« use he made of the amount. Then it s«7l . ff ., *"'" ^'''^ accounts for the produced, that he renders ^ur^ ^": ."^o^T- '''"1"' '''''^ '"'"^ "^^ ^^'^'-^ vouchers showing the applicaticu of these siJrJTl u" '" '■/^'" ^" P'"^'^*^^'^ '^e arising during the interval from othe sources Zrn7;i" ' "' '''" ""^'^ "'^^<'^' discounts maie; he discounted nci^s at th^h ^ h .• T"'''/"''"''"'-'"'^ '^«" ^« the for the proceed. oft.:..e discounts. '^"'^ '* ^^'fi'^'-ent '.mnk., an-,1 ho alec- accounts 3fr. Caaifrain: — fbrtSamc;::^;""''"-- ''''^^"^ ^'^^ - ^"« P-ession the I100,)00. He had cheque, Mr. BUq%e .--■ But they had not been discounted. t Mr. Casgrain: — That was nothing. Mr. Pacaud haa mivo/i „ii .u- that of Mr. Langelier and his own No^Thatto ar^'l™'"''' ^^r-'her, that of Mr. Mercier. to make him define more precisely tLlT ?T "^'^'""""g him, we have the right Honours. pvecmly the statements he made when examined by Your Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .•— strl^:sl7:l'?:i:^^^^^ .Mr. Irvine, but at first sight this which he paid. Itappea«tolherDltT.« ^ T'"".',*^" ^^°''^^''' ^23,000 of notes as charges on his acSunUhe^xpendUuL for thrp?'' "'''''''. '''''''' ^^ again entering received by the discount of the notes. ' ""^ '"""^ "^'"^"^y ^^ich he previously Hon. Mr. Irvine : — " • I do not see how that applies, may it please Your Honour. ' Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— toml^:;Sn^::Srt:SZr:;^^rof"^ ^i-unted .rtain notes tTreie*ct-''^'ri?r^^'^^"°^'^^^«*'^'^^^^^^^^^ ■' '^ *° '" timi election. Would that not be a duplication ? Hon. Mr. Irvine . - B.^:^-j:rrKr;^--s=--r5cst«sjr^ petition in the Chicou- t'-ift<,'V>-~'- Ernest Pacaud 447 eque, but othf; truounts ^ nm,m whj. . passed mvieof tlifc Il0'r.;u(( was aiice 01 the *iOO,000 waa ■o and accounts for the 38ult from the accounts ; then he produces the il othor niotiies which, 3 accoiuit, as well as the ks and ho alst accounts ,()00. He had cheques r, that of Mr. Mercier, tiim/we have the right n examined by Your at at first sight this 300, $23,000 of notes ?e8 by agaiu entering y which he previously jnted certain notes 38 is charged to his ;ition in the Chicou- lut of the first fund. 0,000 but what ha did with the 1100,000. If he gives an account of that «100 000 whether if .vn« *. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— Hon. Mr. Irvine : — It is really not so ; but it is not convenient to discuss it now. Mr. BHque : — through the bank. ' °' ""^ °"'" ''""»"' « ""MJ- th.t went Hon. Mr. JiMce Davidson :— -ill have to be reZ!ed froTmy mind ' ""''"'"' '"* ''^' '^ "^ ^"P^--"' -^ ** iZbn. Mr. Irvine : — Mr. Casgrain : — uudersZi'thaa'arn'o:':;^^^^^^^ j" ^- ->' --h further. I I put, which seems to bla^'^ ;Tarron L^^^^^^^ f ^"""^ if thequestion which O'clock, then there will be no'objLt In mrcrosstami^Tn;. *' '"""' " '''' °^^"*" '^^ Hon. Mr. Justice Baby ;— In what way ? Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— This is a question of figures which wp ho^,c *^ whether there was double clfargTn^ or nJt \Xl 1^^""- '* ^^" ^' ^"^^^ *° ^^"^^ two o'clock. ^ " ^" *'''' meantime we reserve the question till By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. You said that Mr. Mercier left three blank forms before going away ? Q. That was all ? A. Yes, Sir. i 448 Ernest Pacaud Q. There were no others ? A. None" Q- Mr. Alercier left on the 11th March -f A. He loft New- York on the 13th March. Q. VVlien did he leave Quehec ? A. On the 10th. Q. The loth of March ? Q. To the best of my recollection. wer^i5^;:S'oXtrC^r^^ - - -e .i. we Z^s:z:i-^m rr/iutdr '• -r "'^« ^^ ^^^ -^ - -^^h them endorsed by Mr. Mercier, Mr. Tarle ILuhe Mp ^ -'"'' ^ ^^"'^ "'^"^ ^"^^ ^ad the same day, but they do not bea he Lte of tlfe T" f T ' '^"' *^'^^' ^«'« "" signed Q. You said, if 1 understood Urghtufatlen t'' °" ""''''' ''''^ ''''' ''^^''^■ on the day whose date they bear ' "'"' '" ^""'""'^ ^«'« "g^ed and endorsed butttetrw::piidts the 8th or .th March some were datecr:S.Za„r^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ notes on Mai ^Z^f'-' '-' '' ''' ""- -" --e it that thist^;lruld be signed the 11th depanuL''^" ""' ""'" ^'^ ''^"'^^^ *'^'^' ^^^ -*« was signed the morningof Mr. Mercier's A 'YeH .hfnk ifw^"', '""',' S'*^" "'" "° ^-"^^ -^^out that ? A. Yes, I . hink It was endorsed by Mr. Mercier on the 10th Q. How did you know that note^ 89-3 and 89-<) w, ni.i k J. , been previously endorsed by Mr. Me'cier ? ^' '^'"'"'^ ^P^" ^«*' ^hen they had A. To the best of my recollection I nut Anril isf «» tv.^ which would fall due on that date. ^ ''^ '^°'^ "°*"*' "^ o^^^er to meet notes Q. What date? •o .L\'ZTZT' '" "" """• ""' ' ""^^ "■»• -'- «"> . co™po„di„, d..o l^on. i»fr. Irvine :— thoJi^r!:^r:ssj^r!?.::st^Lt s?^^^"" r'- ^^^ -^-- -^« aw they were applied for that purpose aid tSelelp°''?V'''* '° '^"^^ °*her notes this transactions commenced. °''' "'"«* ^^"« b«^«° «» dated before Hon. Mr. Justice Jette : — i believe the question is a regular on*. Afr n^ renewals and to what previous not?sLrapplfor?f the? "'"'' -^ '"'" '*" "^^^ -"« that if Mr. Pacaud will consult his evidenced will se that X' ^^f T'' ' '^''^^« one of thise notes. ^ ''^" "® ^^ already answered for Ernest Pacaud 44» ich us you have eaid, corresponding date The Witness :~ ^^^^^oZl\Ti^:::;2^^^^^ 'o-^ ti.e since. I did not Mr. Casgrain wishes to prove that it wastfr J''- "'" ^^'^ ^^' ^'^^^«"" «ff«ir, but if have which are previo Jto thL tra4a^l.^ bufl T '7 "''^^ ' "^" ^"''^ ^" ^^e notes I and specify the notes. transaction, but I cannot answer from memory in this way By Mr. Casgrain :— Q. Then you cannot tell me now whether th» f^^ . r were notes expressly endorsed to make eS; depolusr'" ' '"^"""^"'^'^ ^^^'^^^ ^^^ be -d t m"l7oro?t"e:rgr ^^^^^^^^^^^^ r T- ^^- -other was to tions of elections. ^ ^^°''^ ^^^ ^*^ ^^arch or for deposits for contesta- thedepJsro^re^lrr^eS^^ affair. That wa, the other deposits because they were p evtu, to S, S ^l^^u ""'• ^ ^^^ "«* "«"««" enter into my statement of account^ ' ^^" '^«» ^haleurs affair and do not Q. When did the elections take place ? A. The 5th of March. a; uir;:: *:::;;xr;'- "™ -'* ^*- "■• «- -^ ^^ apw , B.«de.Ch.le„„ir,Ter * '""""^ '° "^ """I"- ' "now i. „« w„„ a, Q- You are sure of that ? A. Y.., .pa„ ta th, .,p„i, I ^^^ ,^^ ^1^^ ^.^ .o„„b,r-M.ition .nd L!;^ dL:";!"' '" "*" *' "•■»'''• <» ■»' --.■» «.« .hey Wonged .„ me, Q. If the contestations were maintained ? A. Yes. Mr. Casgrain :— 0.« I ».. wtae,, .he ,„.,„„„ ,Mch ™ „„„«, beta the Miour.„e„. , rton, n. Justice Jetti :— We think that it would be better for Mr Pa^anH *« « * • note with reference to which you put that auesZn v, ^"'^ "" C'^mmunication of the other poiuts and between now and to 11^1^/^,' ""^f °" "^''^ '''' examination on decisior , "* '° '""'^"^ morning we will procure the note and give our S9 Ernest Pamud By Mr. Casgrdin ;— V „?■ WJ'^^^^f.K^^'t'Mr.Robidoux Mr. Valliferes note, or your noto endorsed bv Mr ValWre, to be discounted in Montreal, was this note accompanied with a Tetflrnf M and;^,riSrr;;2:;'::;::^^ Union Bank of Canada. Quebec, May 16th, 1891. J. S. Bosquet, Esq., Cashier, Dear Sir, This is to advise you that we will y,y the' cheque of John Chn .ostome Laneelier Commissioner. No. 5. for twenty thousand dollar (120.000) drawn on Ihi.. bank in favfr oJc N.Armstong. If the amount mentioned in Mr. Garneau's letter, as acting ProvincLl W surer and actng Prime Mm.ster, of the 28th of April. -1891, maturing loth of JnH 1891 ^ paid on or before that date by the Government and placed to the credit of the said J C Langeher, CommiBsioner, with this bank. * ^' Yours truly, (Signed) E. E. WEBB, Cashier. A. Yes, I have r m to t»^ Ernest Pacaud iced as Exhibit No. 34. c, May 16th, 1891. Q. Do you know if this noto was fab-on »« u j- Lefehvre. in Montreal ? ^ '"''''' '"^ ^^ discounted 'o a man named Napoleon A. I know nothing of it. Q- It was not taken by you ' A. Oh no. Q. If it were taken there by any one at anv m*. , A. No sir. do not know Mr LTbyre ' """ °°* ^^ ^°" ' Q. Now. Mr. Pacaud, when you made all tha n^* already s,„.keu, I wish you woufd tell me how you ex n^ !,", '^""'''°" "^ ^^^^^ J°" have A. Yes. A Ye9^°" ^''^ *^°"^ "'"^^'' °'^®' circumstances ? - Q- But you remark that the ereator niimK»- „»• *u after the elections ? ^ '' ""™^^' "'^ ^^^^^ "o'es were made and endorsed A. Yes, some before, others after. Q. Comparatively few before ? A. One is produced. A. rr ■„'u;;;::2 1 z:;r„TJr "f '■"■ '•'" ''°^"' •» ^" ">-« •»■»• > my p.«y Ir.oeivedm„„ey"'"«° "■'"""' ■"•■ ■»= f""" whM membe„ of ilfr. CaHgrain : — Honours, are exact. "-aiements Mr. Pacaud made when examined by Your Mr. Biique : — ^071. Mr. Justice JettS .•— The question is too general. By Mr. Casgrain :— «ndlr' '■ ''" **' '"■»"• "' '-^ "O'e. you h.d .ig„M .„d endor., , „, kad A. I do „„. thtot I .,„ „b„,„ ,„ ^,^ .„ ^^^^^__^ ^^ ^^ .„^„,i„^. flbn. i>fr. Juartce .Tetti - ^^^2fP-'="">'0.e 0„h.™ „,„«„„,, ^ ,^., „„ .,^ ,„^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^_ A. I think the sum I mentioned is about 123,000. 462 Erttest Facaud Mr, Caagrain : — ' Q. 123,000/ A. Yes. y. I «"PP08e this was in your opinion a cn.iderable man of money » Q.- *i3,s:p:\re" how r '"" -'^ *''"''' «•■ ^'' "-''«• '^•^^ -'^ «-- mm. A. ^Jeposits in the contestation of elections A. Yes.'st ^''" "'*""* °° ''" ^•''"' ''"P"'''' '^'^'"'"e '"*°k to you ? Q. You expected to succeed in all the contestations ' west;.^:re::sr;dSted^ir r ^"'^^r '■; '^^ °""^^«'-- °^q-^- thousand dollars depo^ired ^ ""' ''°°'''''^ ^'«'^' ^^^^'^''^'l d°"«" ""t of the Q. It WAS dismissed preliminary objections/ A. Yen. Q. Solely ? A. Yes. ..me proceeding. "S, oontc, JZ^rXc" ,, Z 'I* rZ IZZ'l^'^ """•°*! sncceedMl ,„ witl,drawi„g our note, with the "* •» "-p -.^i- *» i«.nce What he did on -.^^Sn^^-J ^S- ^ ^ll'':^^ * The Witneaa .•— ofmyt^nTllnLtlTrnXi^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^^^ ««' P- trustee of our party. ^ preceding election, the Hon. Senator Pelletier was the Q. Then when money was wanted either for revision of electorallmf.nuf , ■ «n^n« exp,n.e. whatever, „„ Senator Peiletier draw, uttr^tt: 1: Zt'tZ .p«iti MSter.''" °°"' '° "" "'"' "'"^''' "" «»■""'.«»». of election, thi. wa. quite a Ernest Pacaud 468 ey? only remains f I0,00(). ntestation of Queboc- ired dollars out of the ould be dianiissed on : back to yon ? ions, but I based my party had taken the by them ; we had n the 1891 elections? into that question o keep within the e only did in this ivhat that was. n in the first part Pelletier was the as for any election re on these occa- J this was quite a Q. Senator Pelletier was sim,,Iy nominated a« trustee of the n.oneys for the cntesta- tions of elections ? A. He was the depositary of the bond signed by the friends who held themselves respon.ib e for the sum opposite their names ; notes were m,ule by either Mr. JVUetier, Mr Franco. Langeller or other, ; these notes were discounted on the guarantee of this bond signed by all the other fnends. and when the contestations were settled one way or the other the depc^ts were withdrawn and applied to paying the notes, and then those who had signed the bond were no longer liable. "'^"ea r.2' ' r, '? '^r '''"""' ' "■'"' ""'"'''■ '"' ^'■^''"r«e'»e"ts, disbursements for the revision of electoral hsts. costs for contestation of elections, electioneering expenses, for the papers of yo,n- political party, for your own paper. ..c. ..c. ; well I should like to know since in thi's way' " " '"'' " '"""' '™ '"'' '"" ''^'"'"''"^' ^"''"°'^' ^^^^ Hon. Mr. Irvine : — learned fnend seems to be so anxions about this matter that it looks as if he wants to acquire this particular knowledge so as to be benefitted by it hereafter in his 01"^^ :rr.:L\:i:"""^^^""^^^"'""^"^--^ — - -- -nortr Mr. Casgrain : — Well, if such be the line of argument which Mr. Irvine wishes to pursue. I shall have to ask to do somethieg which is neither agreeable to me nor to the Commi sion e her am obliged to ask that Mr. Pacaud withdraw while I argue the point. (The witness here under the direction of the Commission withdraws.) Mr. Casgrain : - Now I may be righr or I may be wrong, but the reason that I am nuking this is that whatweincendto try and prove, and what our instructions lead us to snpp! e "e can prove IS that th» is a a conspiracy from the very beginning, and that all thi whlhav^ meddled m.t.-Mr. Mere^er. Mr. Robidoux. Mr. Langelier and possibly Mr. Garnelu anZf course Mr. Pacaud. kne. very .ell that from the time these hundred thousand d lars were promised to Mr. Pacaud this money would be given to him, and then that wha ever wL requisue in the way of making notes,-election notes or deposits for elections-would com" out of this common fund, and that all these expenses which we have mentioned -Zn kL7it"'r"'""t ''"'"'"" '"'■P""'*^ '^^'^^ '^« "«^« - f- anything'of that kind, It was known at the time that this money was to come out of the $100 000 Now t ake, that iflestablish that on other occasions this same thing was done, th^ramo Its th /27'^°^;;"^^«^-^-^-^^^r- Pacaud and that for a number of years he h..s been th. depositary of this money, and that also for a number of years he had distributed it in 454 if! Ernest Pacavd again. The .ame ground was to be gone ove'r n^"^ *« be done given to Mr. Pacaud for the very same oh wV Tm °'" ^""" °^'^'' ^"^'"^e- The n.oney was what had been done for several yeTrp^fS"^ ''ll' "'^^'^^"^ ^"^ *he continua ion o day, but I think new facts have bee Sbnlr''^°^''^^«"^'^ '^^^ P°int the Xr Comnnssion to allow me to go int^^^e ^uSn.""" ^'^'" "^"^^ ^""^^ "- '" -king the Hon. Mr. Irvine :~ than he can do at present with the c^e as U slndTn '' tk '"'' ""' '^''^ '« ^° ™"<^h funhe, of evidence given by any person connoted with th so ^ " """' "'^^ ^'''^ ' «>"^^^« ^o^d Pacaud and the membere of the Provin, ,«, r ^ '^'""^'"^ complicity between Mr such thing was the Payment mad to M^^^ ?^^ «"'^' ^^-'^^ «' P-i "? anj distinctly swears that Mr. Langelier lad no knlT'n ™''^"^ ^^^"'^ P'^^'^^^^^ Mr. Pacaud reference to this Baiedes Chafeurs Sway ^t L'af "1 "'f '"' '^^" ^°'"g - ^i ^ money from Mr. Pacaud quite irrespect ivrof' th 1 Z Z *^' ""P'-^««ion that getting stances I claim he cannot\o into such eXceir^^^^^^ ^''^'''"^ ""^•^'- ^^-^ circunf a previous election money was raised brmean o not^'^'r • .""^ '""^^ *° P™^« '-' at Bome means ..r other, and he asks the Comm'" ion "°'''' ^^"^^ ''^'^ afterwards paid by they must have been all aware that th^^^„ ^°" ""^ '^'"''^^^ "^ that to infer that however that they were awareVf if 5 e o„ ttr T^ *^'^ P'^'^^" '^^^-eisnoe^Lnc tying to negotiate one of these notes, and Mr^Snlll ^ "•"' '' '""* °^ ^^^- R"l^iJo«x on one occasion when one of thp nnto. T' ^'^"^elier who is said to have been nre.Pnf Mr, Caagrain : - ■ffon. iJfr. /moe ;_ (After „adi„g .he ,„..«„„., We«. r. i. p„„i„.,„ .,, „„,^ „ . ■Won. JJfr. Jj A. No. ^"' Prothonotary I suppose you did not .iistribute the funds ? Q. How long were you Prothonotary ? Ernest Pacaud 456 ftctly what he nio t' ^^,7'«fPPo>"'ed Prothonotary of the Superior Court, Clerk of the Circuit Court and Clerk ot the Crown on the 14th June 1878. Q. How long were you Prothonotary ? A. I was removed by Mr. Chapleau's government in March 1880, Q. Then you came to Quebec ? A. I practised as a lawyer. Q. At Quebec? A. No at Three Rivers. Q. You did not distribute the funds at that time ? A. At Three Rivers? Q. ves. A, No. Q. You came to Quebec ? A. I practised aa a lawyer and edited the Concor" '"" «■« -« ^y you A. Not the next day. Q. When was it ; the same day ? A. The same day. Q. The same day ? A. Yes. I think bo. A. No. Q. What do you swear ? A. I cannot say the day on which I cashed Mr. Mercier's cheoun for iS.^, nnn ot fi,» tt • Tm ?V'' f'^'' "l f;,^'^"'"*^ '''' '"^ ^^"^-^ r cleposltlfon'Lf av iToootdkr booT^t fb ". "V '^ tr'*'^ *'-'^ -^^ °"« ^'""^ ; "" the contrarv I s^e by my ba^ book at the time I cached the $5,000 cheque I deposited $3,000 and "that the LZ H«vT rnado another deposit of $1,000. "^'-^w ana mat tne same day I Q. The same day ? A. The same day. ii- You do not rpmomber how many hours after ? mtimt.. i 468 Ernest Pacaud A. No, I do not remember. want'^dSSo''" "'" ""' '' """' '^P"^* *^« ^-O"" -d keep the 11.000 since you only that. '"^'"'•"^"ce, 80 that I had Mr. Meroier's money at his disposal, I considered only A. 1 placed a j)art oi the money to mv credif TNTnn^ r.f tv,'„ my mind on this subject I hnH t^ i ^ l. ""^^^ considerations came into .ide**7„'„*!i:Ti;e'"',"r '"■'''' '" •=°»»«-' "•« «•>=->»• '»' «00 „» , a con. A. Yes. Q. Then you trusted entirely to your memory on this point ? A. For what? Q. To keep track of the money, to remind you ? A. That I had this sum at his disposal ? Q. Yes. forgetit' ""''"'""' '^"''-'^"^ ^'^* ^^ ^«^ ^-- - the cheque for loOOO. I could not Q. And that for $3500? A. Yes. Q. And you kept no account whatever of ? A. Absolutely none. Q. At this time you had in hands other considerable sums of money ' A. No. •• ■ Q. Tliat wiw the only money you had 1 A. After the election I clnnot say without referring to my books. A. Yes. Q. You had a great deal of money in hand at this time ? A. Yes. Q. That was not all ? A. I am not obliged to say anything besides what has alieady been produce 1 . Q. If you do not wish to answer, say so ? ' i' WWIWIIWj w ' b ' p.fwy L^wwii I'tj' s ym t^f^ «; $1,000 since you oiily 53.000 or $1,000; this Ma], I considered only Mr. Mercier ; why did iderations came into kept the amount at $3,500 iixa e a con- ove that the money irge before he went BjOOO. I could not for « )f)i);) an I for •ruary. Ernest Pacaud 469> oduce I . A. I refuse to answer any question outside of the vouchers produced Q. \ou had at that time a great many monetary transactions to do and aheadv done ' A. What do you mean by a great many monetary transactions, do you mean a Seat many payments. ■ «" j i>u mean a great Q. A great number of payments that you had to make and that you had already made. Q. You had not ? A. I discounted some notes, but I had not a great number of payments to make ' wa,^t;?t:,w::2i:^kaSi:'^^^'^^"'"'^™ -^^ -- ™^ ^™^-^- ^« ^^- ^t ^ \ ^T,?" ^°" ""^ ^^^^ "°'^' -''"" h^'l discounted between the 21st Febrnarv iSQi and the 3rd March 1891. Were there others besides the note for ^,So you hlJe Zlced' Hon. Mr. Irvine : — I do not think it is within the province of the Commission to inquire into that The Cofnmission may enquire into the $100,000 transaction and those coLected wi h t S rdid :i^x:r™c " ''"' ^^^' ''''-' ^^- ^-^--^edthe$ii%s Hon. Mr. Justice Dandson : — I do not quite follow you. Hon. Mr. Irvine : — What I was simply saying is this : This note is not produced and included amons the vouchers as I understand it, for this reason; the note L paid by cheque on the Un on llC^i (;(;> wCbt "p",1 '' '^"*^''^' ^" '' '''' Payment'of the'first ?nsta ment !f h $100,000. which Mr. Pacaud drew. That was discounted in the Banque Nationale and th! whT$Zoi)"^hef:^''"th''^-?^"" '" '' '"^ ^^^«""*« rendrd an acct'nrof h Whole f 100,000 , there! . -re this note cannot be the subject of enquiry now. Hon. Mr. Justine Davidson : — That assumes that he has rendered an account of the whole $100,000 ; but my examin- ation of the account does not carry me as far as that. examin- Hon, Mr. Irvin- : — thinw/*' "^ ^^^^T' SO, he ha^. certainly. It is subject, of course, to explanation I think there is no debt about it that it does cover the $100,000. "explanation. I Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— Wedonoisee much objection to the question as put. We cannot striokt- limif ih. evidence which may be given to . uch and such a note ; naturally we wlTj^dgaUrdL circumstances a* to what does or does not concern the inquiry. accordnig to m [1 ^^ J •^T-A m .. 1 i| ii wM !| i|ri !1 460 Ernest Pacaud The Witness : — 1 request Your Honours togive me an opportunity to examine these documents, because iZV^n.!:o t^ou S '° "^^ *''^* '^"^••' ^-^»«« A. I do not know if theso w^ro ^.- "ot "hliged to pay, but that he was ' was si..p,y endorseTbv in n I tlTsferir' iT' '' *^ ^"'«^^"^^- ^ "- -*« he said : " Keep this leUer, it wi sel e "7 You ai-e h' "'T'^ ""^ '' '^ «^"^ *'> ^im. It is I wl,o owe the sum and not you '- ^ ''"'^^'' ^""^ "^^ '''"<^r «how8 that Q. What you repeat is in substance what is in the postscript ? tho^j:;:ChStf::;s::^;-^^ «- hundred and «. Q. No memorandum, nothing at all ? A. What memorandum could I give him ' «he,?J°" "«"' ■»'»«"•» ""» -iU„g „, ,„„e kind, showing ft, receipt of .hoee Q.- b:; r™:,e ordSV"- '"'*' ^»^ •°«'-°' -"^-^ '» -« A. He did not exact a receipt find fhem°- l''l« hTd^CSr^' """'«' '" "■«"' '"■'«"■ "« !»»» no. been .bl. .o 1 ziz^ttr:^' ""' """ ■"" "■" ^»* ^"f" ^«" "■« — <<* ' (The witness examines Exhibits 87-7 and 87.10 ) date, the twenty-eighth April "unarea and htty dollars each, bear the same Q. He undertook it personally. A. Yes. Q. And that he knew that Mr. Mercier had left money with you. , Q. And yet he drew on you at fifteen and thirty days ? A. Yes. thou,.nddo]la™. About Ihe thirtiiirofJun"; " "^ ^°° '° ""^ '''■° "" «»« A. No. I have not it. Q. You did not bring it back to court ? A. No. * '-^WlfclM.;, . Ernest Pacaud 463 pon facts. To interpret asking for five thous- eep that letter, because Jut that he was ? ibstance. As the note (vere to be sent to him, It my letter shows that ive hundred and five the receipt of those me to accept the two ive not been able to he same date ? hibits87-7 and 87-10, ch, bear the same Mr. Mercier under- ier you showed the lend him the five A. Yes. Q. And you haven't it? prodtetand?rsllTdta?Cu"id/\'r*'V^'"'^^^^^ °^ the Commission not to and I dest;oyed it. I Z'Zl^ylC o:^^^^^^^ '' ''''' '''''^ "^^^^ ^^ ^'« P-^-tion, Hon. Mr. Justice Jette :— I think you were wrong, Mr. Pacaud, and I must tell you so. The Witness: — I regret it. Your Honour. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— sionere. It might ^°" ^""^^ °° confidence in the Commis- The Witness : — I tholSSa:;Xtl^^^^^^^ not t.mterpret my action in that way. take communication of it andThat their ^"^m *^"' ^^'^'^ ^°"""^« ^^'^ ^^^^ed to thought from the.time..! the counsel could not take communication of it, I Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .•— We were disposed to maintain that decision, that I. why you should The Witness :— have kept it. I pray Your Honours not to interpret my action in th^t wo^ t. reason at all that I did it. ^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^ °ot for that Hon. Mr. Justice Jitti :— It was certainly to your advantage to keep the letter. The Witness :— were ridiculed. In that letter although th^rp 7 1^ ^ '^^ ™°""'' P"^**« "^"ers. things, which, if they were pkceSb fore th^^^ rthev ^T/'"'""^' *'"^"«^^ '''"^- That is the reason which ma'de me dttroy^; Again frvth'r"" '^'^ •" "'""'^ ^''"• been too anxious to submit to the wishes 'of tn.tfi sEi rb^irn;;for ' '''' 464 Emast J'acaud »te Was signed by By Mr. Casyra:n : — ..d .tLirrcrsrr"^^: '- - ' -- --'-""■ " "•««'»«- ««io»^e Q. To cable? monfy. ''"• ' "'"'■ '^'^^ ' '' ""'■ ^'^^"^'- ^'^'^^ *^« B-^"« Na'ionab whs sending him the Q. Wliat is ab 33 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. MSEO (/16) S72-4503 ^"^^ ^ i-^ 466 Ernest Pacaud I'.r IM m to M?-I^:::;rinTourhind:f' '''' ^'"" '-'' ''^-^^^^^-^ ^^^^ ^-^^^ -ne.v belonging A. Yes. Q. Yon have no doubt about it? A. No. Q. Who was there besides Jfr. Lafrance' A. ]\tr. Valli^re. Q. Mr. Gaboury ? A. No. Q. Were there any other bank officials there » and ^yseJr "" "° ^^"""^ '^^ ^^^ ->' *»^- ■» ^^^ bank. Mr. Lafrance. Mr. Valli.re Penni.'^'Sartutre "t^ ^"'^^ "P''" ^^^*=^ ^^ ^'^'^ *^« P-i- to Mr. Frank looktritf"'''^^'^"- ^'^^^-^'-'^^orit, but I should have it. Do you wish n.e to . Q. Yes. A. I should have it. A. It was not understood. I offered to do so. Q. To whom ? A. I offered it to Mr. Geoffrion. I offered it to Mr. Tarte Q. Do you say you offered it to Mr. Tarte ? A. That is my impression. Q. You are not certain, is it not so ? A. I do not know if I mentioned it nf that t;,v. i, -r know, but I think that it was ZmderstoS t J ' ^'^ *« "«te. I do not be applied to that. "nuerstood thmg that the sum that I paid for him was to his cir ' '°" "'" ^''' ""'■ ^^°^"- *« ^« "P to Ottawa and that you would pay all arrivti ofTe traf^SSra^^^^^ ^^ ^ ^ ^^^^ o«ce on the and he told me he asked hfty dolkrs p Tday Cd ll'^r^ ''"^^s in the matter for five h .ndred dollars for L first ten days " and f I •'' ^V ^°" " '^^^'^'^^ ^' °"°« Q. Was Mr. Tarte present ? ^ ' '' ^ '°'^'' y^"' '^'^^ "'^ ^^■ A. No. A. I had a deed of declaration of partnerahip. Q. There was no deed of fiartnership between you ? A. I do not think so. Langelier was during 1884 ? rarnicrsnip for the Elecleur with Mr. Charles ^1 Ernest Pacaud had money belonging tfrance, Mr. Valli^re nium to Mr. Frank >o you wish me to Mr. Geoffrion on 1 think, that it wa« It it to aay, on Mr le note. I do not laid for tiim was to you would pay all .t his office on the ts in the matter a cheque at once me. 'harles Langelier understood this ith Mr. Charles the Honourable Mr. Laurier 1 "wnerstup ot the Eletieur by P. B. Caagrain and A. Yes. declaration. ^'*^'^'*'' ^^^^ out ot any hands notwithstanding that Q. Later on, still in the same vear iskr ti the E..,„ bv P. B. c„g„i„ ™,reH!;„' ILTr It IS '"'"""°" "' °""'"'"> "< A. The same answer applies I dn , t ti i u ^'^""'^'^ ' .ii. ine snb8cni)tions of tVifiiiflo ti i of tho sacrifices we had made to support hen^l iT^ f ''' ""' ^"^ ^'«P°«-' «" account m town here, and I bought the news^aTe ' om' liT^t'^yT'^l ''^"'^ ^-P-'iticalfrS . Q. You had, Mr. Charles Langel er and Z r I" ^''"^'^'^^'' '^e plant of the paper. ^^"^^•■^•-_^'^P--thMr. Joseph\;:LTlZ^^^^^^ '"""'' "^^^'^''"^' "^' «— ifoft. Jlfr. Irvine : Doe, .he Oo..„i„i™ .K.„k . ,e.i„b,. .„ ,„ i„,, „„ ...^ „„ ,„ ^ iu)". Caagrain :— I just want to show that L'^'fec/^..^ HiH r,..* . did not put a cent into it. '''^'''«"'- ^"^ "^^ «««' any thing and that Mr. Charles Langelier i/ow. Mr Justice Davidson :— It is very remote. Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Were those deposits large? Q. I. Ih.t the only ,lep„,it y„„ ,.„„„„,„ , Q. Vo»e .0 a„ ... „„ic,. . o,.„ „, J„, ■„ ^ ^Zt- S*,^,^, „.^; '. i 468 Erneft Pacaud ^'"'^r Ye^ '^''''""" ^'°" ""'^ '*""' ^°" """'' ""■'*"'^^" "« '« "^^ application of that money ? \.nJ^'y. ^ ^''^'^ *" ^""'' " *° ^^^ ''*^^' '"°'« ^'^''^^ y°» paid for the revision of electoral lista A. Yes. you tlrb/;™zire'°' '"'" •""°""' "■'■ '^" ^"" ^'"« «>■"« "p"-"'" •"»'-»« A. Yes, that I had kept in njy possession. Q. Personal expenses ? A. Yes, personal expenses. Q. Kot expenses in a political sense, nor for political friends' A. No. i Q. You are positive of that? A. I am positive. Q. I would ask how it is that .-ut of a larire niimhpr r>f ;t^«-,= -^.w, i u Q. Ity.m notice, where political purposes are concerned vv cheques or notes ? ' ' A. Yes. nor Ifhtr" '"" '"' '""'' '"" '"'' ""^^''' '"^^^^^""'^^ "-' ^^ ^™>"-r note. cheque A. No. Q. You did not keop books ? A. No. Q. What have you to refresh your memory ? Q. On what ? Q. On these sums expended for personal use ? A. I suppose that they are expenses which I have no interest in retracinir Tf ih... Q. I see in your account that when vou went in fh^ ««.,„*„ . i A. A trip to the Senate ? How ? • Q. Yes, yes. 3 vonchers, either Ernest Pacaud 469 ication of that money ? vision of electoial lists, nd the money, or were ill each county to aak t them a sum, a small bursemeuts. xplanation as to what tain current expenses. li you have here you kept by you foi your rest that I paid for 3 vonchera, either neither note, cheque racing. If they are interest have I in took one thousand dollars for a trip to A. I beg my frieml's pardon the .heque is at the Senate I beg your nardon I may perhaps have expressd myself badly, but if you u.idersto™! mp liL , ,^ mistaken I said that the che,ue for one't'hous.ndTlir thT t^. o t'^g t IZZ before I left, in American money as much ns passible, by Mr. Dumoulin lormv tHn^^ Lurop. apart from the draft, I said that that cheque, l' coLd not iZt.' ^Z ZZl SeJe .*W-7'''"""' """'" *'"^' '"" *« ^'"°" ^-k' " — y f- ™y trip to the A. What item, Mr. Casgrain ? Q. Statement No. 3, item 14 ? A. This is the correct entry. It is an error in tho r^.T,^r tv, • • , Q. That cheque was for j our trip to Europe ? A. Yes. timel' «°"'«^**^^^*y«"^^d J««iJ«Jto go to the Senate to give evidence just at that A. How? h.fn?\lV^''l "' ^r ""''^"''l" ^^^^ ^^ "^"* ^'^*^' y"" ^''^ 'l^cided togoandgiveevidence Sn to vl" -r r "^ '^'' ^°" ^^^" *^^ ^^^^"^ ^'^ -« thousfnd dolSrs fo your trip to Euro^, and yet you state m your evidence, yesterdav, that you were at that^r^P going to the Senate ? j . , t lau ^ou were ao mat time A. Even if I had decided to go to the Senate, as I had, on the Sunday that did not ratntyTictt trSp l^f '''' ^^^ ^'^ ^^ ^^ ^ ^ ^^ -- evt diat^yliri^rEtTeV''"" *'^"^^"' '^""^ *« ^« *« Ottawa, to leave imme- A. No. I had not changed the cheque for one thousand dollars before the day i left for Ottawa. I arrived on the Sunday morning from Murray Bay, I took my ticket to go t , OtVawa and I returned on the Sunday evening. On Monday morning, when I had dec ded n^t o go to Ottawa but to leave at once for New York, I went to th^ bank and cha, ^ i^^^^^ cheque for one thousand dollars. i^uangeu my Q. That is the explanation you give ' A. Yes. mad?? ' ''' ''"'"' " ^"''""^' '^'■- '^''"■''' '^'"^''"''•' *'^^" ^^" y«" «"^t« ^hy this deposit was A. No. I cannot say why. I must have made it because Mr. Lvig.lier may have told Tn ; .t'r\r';'"T'''"^'''°*^'^*'*^-^' ^^^ --^^^^ ^hat sum. and iLud hive gon to.the bank o place that sum to his credit, telling him that he might draw on the bank, that I would place the money at his disposal in .h^e izi°:::^iT ■"'"""■ '"'■* •" »"• ''"-"^'>" ■■«««■>''- "'"■"-<« »*» A. Yes. Q. These sums are paid by you personally and not by the firm of Bolleau & O A. Yes. Q. It was you who pay these expenses ? ompany ? 470 Ernest Pucaud A. Yes. ^' ^*^"" the best paid ? A. Yes. A. I do not think that I am obS to entt in T"" ''"'"^ '° ^'- ^''^^''''' ? matter between Mr. Desbarats and mylr ° ''"" """*'"• ^'^'^^ ^^ ^ personal -nt^opt'rd^::;;*l'carS^;r^^^^^^ ^^^l Baie des Chaleurs matter which t^ - ig as when money is paid to the b"nk ' '''' "''"'''''''• '' '^ ^^'-'^''''y the same By Hon. Mr. Justice JeM .•— Q. I nndei^tood that you stated that it wns a debt of Afr n • . Q. Your personal debt? A. I considered it as a personal debt. y. it was not a personal debt '^ ^^^^^:r^Z:^r^^-^-^^ ^^^ ^-t money on my name a personal matter. ® ^"^ ''""""^ '" ^°"°'- ^o pay Mr. Desbarats. It is altogether Q. Was this loan made to a political friend '> O ■ vH^ T ■ f '^"'^'^'•"'^ » "«t a political friend. hi^ tf irarhrCrr *"' ™°"^^ *^^^ ^- -^-^^^^ ^o ^r. Desbara.. had been bv A. Yes. A ^yI T '"w" ^''" "'"'^^ '° '^ P"'"'««J fri'^'^cl r A. I es, Your Honour. Q. Was he a member ' A. Yes. A Tl ^'"''ir ''°"''' ^'^ ^"""^ *° ™«"tion it ? hundr.. a::;'«^;' dr:::,^ ui hLtv-^^te^h 't-'- --^^ ^- ^^^^ «- ^^ «- I paid it. " """ '° ^""8 ™e the note and that I would pay it. And By Mr. Vasgrain :~ Matane ? A. I think so. Q. Are you sure ? A. Yes, I liHvp already met him. Q. Did yoa meet hin. in the beginning of May, 1891 ? Ernest Pacaud 471 Ijec, is it not ? libera] organ in the ad other persons, wore ilr. Desbarats, VV. S. Mr. Desbarats ? That is a personal aleura matter which absolutley the same Desbarats and that 5ney on my name rats. It is altogether barata had been bv r the sum of one would pay it. And eur, merchant, of A. I do not remember. Q. You met many persons at that time ? A. Yes. th«b''eg"r„;t,"i""';i?™''^°'' '° ""■"""•" "'"■"«■' '••"■ "■" «'■ ^-'""" in A. No, I did not meet him, I do not think so. Q. Did he go to your house ? wouM ™"::c:ii Zo LiTLYfirn,"""'"''' '"^ ■ *'"^ " ' -^ - -'«' ■ Q. I ivMh If pcMible, thai you would give a poeitive an.wer ' I .h,'. J ,z'"^r ™r:w roiuiveZu'd',"";''' "s ""■ ""' '° '-> """- "■«" in »y preen. p»i,i.,„ i„ S , 'nT^ a em* tlTL" '■,'■"""•''"■""'' "™' ' °°' would ™r i„ the „o.. po.i.ive u,,Z2X,r™.trhi„r °°"""*" """' ' "'^' ' Leva?..!" 'r;i ;:„vir,i::':: SirS' ■:"■; °"' "'*'*'°' ^■°" -' *• ■■■ ^■ A. I deny that in the most positive and solemn mannp.- Pvan ;<• * to swear it, I swear positively that it !- f„i t "'*""f'- ^^^^ '' ten witnesses came Levasseur or any W eC! ^ ''• ^ ""^'''" ^"'^ «"^»' ^ conversation with Mr. Q. Very well, your denial is sufTiciently emphatic ? A. I swear it positively and without any restriction. onettriiT,irr'"'"'^''^-^°'""^™^"^'«"^^-^---^^ A. I did n.,t state that he had received one thousand dollars H- In what account is it to be found ' acconntt:Godi''e:;r ^"^' """"' " ''^ '"■'' *^^ ^^-^ -"* 'o P^^y election and other Q. Who is that Godreau ? ' k Hrrorc"i?rz.cf„r,„r '■ ■'^ '^-'^ ^« " ■•>« «-- ■^'o- A. No. Q. Did you take a receipt ? A. No. • Q. How do you know it was for election expenses ' A. Because I knew him and he told me so. Q. Where did he work ' «b.i.t!o*^i ir^.r„i'z.^srsr.ru'rx:;°;L,^ »^" ' •» give those to Your Honours. accounts which I may have paid. I am ready to Q. I do not insist. Now, will you take item 88-24a I see • " T r.^^^., the proceeds of a discount $419 " I wi^lT t ^i, w -f "^ ^'"^' *^'^ ^''^ ^ deposit made of you discount ? ' ' ""'^ '"^ ^""'^ "^''^'^^ ^ to that discount. What note did A. Iobject.Ido not think that this has anyconnection...thisisanotewhichInegotiat. - ,H f i' 4*72 Ernest Pacaud Hon. Mr. Irvine :— entirely to the transactions connec^eTrhtLS^ n/"'? °' »^««ri"S it, is confined d ^counted any notes for Mr. Mercier prS to th' ' rt"" ''"'^'^y- ^' ^^^ I''^<=-»d h.mmanyemergency,thatha8nothinri al todo^^^^ linanced for him or aided tbe habihties created before wore afterwards iTd 1 1 'm.^ '' ™""^'"' ""'*^«« ^^^ ^^ew that the importance of the question that I ob St^^ ^ut it ?, h ' "'""'^; '* '^ "«* ^«««"«^ ^^ principle mvolved. ^^''^' *'"* 't is because of the importance of the Mr. Casgrain ;— P™rL'har^^^^ Which Mr. of the hundred thousand dollars. Th st one oJThl m 'T^ '°''' "°* ^^"'^^'^ ^" -^^-"""t to go further, and we wish to show tha bj thl ^InZ^' ''? f ^'""'"^ '*• ^' ^"'^ have been really prevented up to the presen tS ff "^^'^*="""*'' ^^at has taken place, we received the BaiedesChaleurs money. "" P'°''"^ *^»^* "tl^e'' Persons had Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .- - If that is your object, the fart thai iw, u j the proof that you wi^h t^ make If he^oefrt" ^°*^:?1'^«« '« ^is credit will facilitate at all. I do not give any decision bu Jpobt ou to vou" w "' '""' '^ '°" '^°* ^°'=°"'^' Mr. Cusgrain :- ' ''' '"" ^^^'"^"^ ^^ -*<^---- Then my question will remain there. Mr. BHque :— dMcount, that .ppe>„ by the bank X b^k "'° °° "" ■""" """y Wimt the ^>". Casgrain : — * LZ"!- ""' ""' "'■ '"•""■ '""^ '^ '^'- "» ^''^-'^' No. ^r Casgrain : — Then I cannot refer to them A ThTt )'"" *"" '"*"" = ." ^*- '^^""' ^«^'^'°^". «1.135.35 No 88-168 9 A. Ihat IS an error, it is $113 35 e8-168 ? It being four o'clock, the sitting was adjourned until the following day. J. BELANGEE, (^^erkofthe Commission. dollars, but tins is on inquiry, as we have said rearing it, is confined tailway. If Mr. Pacaud need for him or aided r, unless you shew that It is not because of the importance of the le amounts which Mr. s not render an account f showing it. We wish lat has taken place, we lat other persons had is credit will facilitate Q, he does not account ument is not decisive. book, he will see that me day against the Bd? ay. R, le Commission. ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA. Province of Quebec, District of Quebec. of the Superior Court, Commissioner . to inqu^oro an' r"Z oif n'^'r r''"'?'-'"'^" 13th SITTING. and ;?n:;ronr^'' '^' °'^°*'^'"' '" ^'^ '''' ^' «- ^^<^ «- *»>ousand eight hundred Present : . The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis-A. Jett6. President, „ „ ]] ]■ Louis-Francois- Georges Baby, Charles-Peers Davidson. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson:— Commissioners. ™e„"'""- "'" "" '"'^'»" """"'^ "•' " »"•<" "" 'heproducion of .he following d™„. 2. An order on the Union Bank for. j- ° x. July 189L "^ * ''''' °' "^^""^ ""^^^"^ ^^^"^ *^<^ 2nd March inclusively to the iS III A statement with voucher, or papers showing how and by whom the bank received, 4L 4, — 1 474 Ernest Pacaud 4. An..r,l,.r„„ J.c. .More ra.n.Irnr, .,,'", "'''-'''' *1''™I'«' 18'J1, for the choqut, a,„l depo... .lip. «„„„,„ J 'her.tilh """ *1"<"»'«" 18"' "'"'« ^"nng the was made a m,.nth later, a.fd for wh'h itv l^acf ''^ T '"' ^^'^""'-*- -'-h I produce this statement as Exhibit N^ Ss ' """'''• -;j^iPo;£S"VSt^Z^^^^^^^ «3> - -e date Of 30t. ^5^000) Which I had sent ^^u::^:^!:'^:^^^'^'^!^^^' ''^ «--- ^ ^'o^- o.rcmnstances I explained yesterday. ^*'""" ^^^''^'^^^ ^'"^^ I added under the ^e if^ s'::r srt; tt;Xhr ^ -^^'^'r' ^^'^^ - --^-^1 under before tho opening of the sitting ? "^ ''°^^^'^'«hy«"P"vately explained to us this momit A. Yes. Your Honour. A. Yes, Your Honour. -iif I ":^:::tZ^^:i^:^ -y-- company, receipt f.r .3., as some time ago. I returned all my nolS Ll ^'""^*^- ^ '^'^^'^ ""* the receinte date wh.ch corresponds to the pavment I thTn tTr -uu ^'''"'- >"« for that sum at a the company .king m. for nl Vor ri;:tt:tH:y of'SloS!^"' '' " ^ '^"^^ '^-'» -^2/ -Vr. Casgrain .•_ ' .™.oftoao„a„„:::'p.^7:'ii'^,^"<"' ""'•' ■' •'■•'«'■ ^»»tc.jn„dihr.hit Ernest Pacaud 475 tinues hia deposition as Qcnt showing the dates cte \ with those two A. Mr. Carrell i. the proprietor of the Daily Teleoraph ( . V\ h.ch ,s one of your party organs at Quehec ^ "^ A. 1 «8. Q. And the ten dollars were paid to him ? him ui cont.mf ti.t'pIliclTion on'il p'oi^'' Tn" ^^'i *'""''' ^^"'^^' ^'"'' ^ ^'""''1 «««i«t^ salary of liis e'Jit„r in chief- he rwid hinS^r; ^T ° '"'^' •'™ ''''^'^'>' ^^"e-half of the weekly. I have paid hi„. thkt amount since '" '"''■""' ' '''' •"" '^"^ ^ --"^' P«y «10 Q. ^I'ow the sum of $21!» and fh«f nC«'ji- ,. i,- i been paid for premiums .>f inr.ran e Itc ;« w ' m"" """.''"""' ""« "'^'"^"«- ^« having A. Y.S, Sir. on n.y own iffe ^ ' "'' "''^ ^'^''^ °" I'°''^'«» "" yo»r own life ? I2.00o"in re M^crafrBfnnna tZhut V^ll TTt" "'*'"' "''"'^"^ >'°" ''^f'"«''«^ to whose credit did you n>ako those depi Is v" Bank.Savmgs Branch, Upper Town ; A. To my own credit. Q. To your credit ? A. Yes. Q- Have you anything in your books to show it ? A. Yeo. Q. Have you your hooks with you ? A. No, but I can wend for them. Q- Do you produce your bank-books ? A. No. I do not produce them. Q. Wio is that Mr. Parmelee ? ' A. He is the editor of the Waterk.. idverHser Q. One of your party organs in tL. county of Shefford » A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jem :— Q. Was that sum paid to Mr. Parmelee returned » A. Immediately afterwards by the next mail. Q. You have already said so, I believe ' wards. ^ "'''* "^•'' t'^o 'lays after, but it was immediately after- By Mr. Casgrain .•— that.toi?:r::^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bank. You state that out of Union Bank Savings Branch. UppfrTown to who,/ ^'T' ""'^ " ^^^^'^ ''^'^^ i" the- A. To my own credit. ' ' ^'^^'' ^''^ *^^«« ^'^^^'^ ™ade ? -1:1 4ie Ernest Pacaud *^'Ooo;.f;ei;jX"^;f^^^^^^^^ I «ho..,d ..ve hi. becan^e he had ^iven cheques ; it waVe u>er ^ m.lt th '"l"'"^ '" '''« "^^''^ >" '^o bank give cheques that day; any way h^wi hll f. T 1-^ ."^'"'l""'' «^ ^''^^ he intended to in cajh. ^ '"'^ "'' ^'«hed to have loOo deposited in the bank and $1500 A, It w.,8 at Mr. Charles Langolier's request that I did so A. JV(,t a drait, a cheque. A. vt; t^.^"^ " "^« «"^ — <' ^« *^e protest on thi« Exhibit 89-8. is it not . A. Yel^sTr."" """ '"*''" ''" '^' ^'''^"'•*'*> P^ J^'^ ? Q. At^tjie request of the Merchant's Bank ? believe it wasTn\h:MerlatXnirM/,ro? ^°'"'""--'-" °^ ^^o protest). Yes I A. Yer''^''' '" ^"''"^ '°^ ^''"^'''^•«°' ^'^ it not ? Q. Have you your Merchants Bank deposit book with you ? Bank^J^iryrS^o^irr- ^- the Union question was paid by the placing trihecedhS °' ^-''T °' *^« "''^^^^^ ^^ the sum of «1005.827 **""* °* ^^^^ account m the Merchants Bank A. No, Sir. Q- You paid it in money ? A. In money. ■ ' Q. With money from the Union Bank ? A. Yes. ^r. Casgrain:— tions^ra!ertrt:;:inf:"o::T^ ^--^^^^^ *« «- instmc. f 7000 drawn from the Union Snk b' by a s m o'fll'o^O^sf 'l"^. "" "°^ ''''' ^^ ^' *^« of Mr. Pacaud's account intheMerehants Bmk B° t i h "'^ ""^ P'^""'' *° '^e debit establish it, and we are obliged to depend entTreiv on M p'' "".' *^' ''"'^''^ ^''''' ^« ^'^'^^ot may be perfectly mistaken ^^^P^^d entirely on Mr. Pacaud's word, who in this matter Son. Mr. Justice Jett4 ;— You have the Merchant's Bank statement ? Ernest Pacaud r. Charlea Langelier $1,500. le? 12000 in money or by a J that I should give him ! to his credit in the bank les or that lie intended to ted in the bank and $1500 f I70f)0 Mr. Armstrong'! bit 88-8, is it not ? ti of the protest). Yes I 477 loney from the Union 1,000 of the cheque in in the Merchants Bank )rding to our instruc- ivas not paid out of the vas placed to the debit books here, we cannot >rd, who in this matter Mr. Ccugniin : — Wc have a statement of account made by Mr. Pacaud. Mr. BHque ;— Certified by the bank. Mr. Caagrain ;— numed to examine Mr. I'acaud's bank books. aPPl'^ation that an accountant be The Witnesg. If the Commioaioners will allow mo t on„ j • tobring my books to establish SrhrtkedrpfS'i;"^^ made, at such or such a date, are really entered n m v 1 ^ '1! f ''^''"''"' '° ^^''^ ^een the conditions I there state. With respect to thatit^ 5 .v. ^""'^ ''' "'" '''"«« ^"^ ""der the amount was taken from the Merchan 's bank will Z " "T" °'' ''""'"« ^'-^h- the Commissioners. If I object to produce mrbooL ^ k"^ Merchant'^ Bank book to publ.cm possession of all mi transLti^rp^vioust tLVaiTV! 7" '" ^"^^'"^ ''- would be altogether unfair. Previous to the Bale dea Chaleurs matter which Hon. Mr. Irvine : .upp«ed that the bank manager would ceriilV an. i. ° """°''"'- '' » "« '» te th,. ch.^0 of which „y ,e.Ll fr^nd r,to Tt'lT """l'"'.' "> '"» hooka, .„d refe,„n. .„ M. Pacaud.. hook. ,., cau h,- ffup th^CSTIhe Lt v'™"!;;*""' Mr. Hall:— ^' If tho Commission will allow me tn aAA „ <• j , learned friend Mr. Irvine that hi t™:::," f ^J redT'a^t tlTn '"^ ^'^ '''^''''' °^ ™^ Pacaud are absolutely correct ; now we tie ?w i f ^ statements produced by Mr. amount of scrutiny. Mr. Pacaud hTgora accounUnThe M ^ T" ".^ '"''^ '" « -'""° in the Union Bank iu the Lower Town office a idL ^''''^^"'^ Bank ; two accounts he has another account in the Banque du Peun e Z, T •" *^' ^^^^^ ^own office Now. with reference more particularly to th!s aciunt i ?. t' '" '^'^ ^""-^''^ ^^^^i^nale Exh,bitNo.90. Thisisnotastatemrnt^::Sfirb;rtcrr:tsZr^"^^ ' '^'^ *^« Hon. Mr, Irvine :— Take the other one. Mr. HaU .— I have not got the other one. Hon. Mr. Irvine : I was wrong in saying it was certified by the manager of the Merchants Bank. t =1 ^ I! I 478 Erneit Pacaud Mr. Hall ;— and de,,o«,ting in another, can so manage hLrThJr^^ ''"'^ '"'^'"^ °"* «f' ""^ bank accounts he.e it i« in.p<,ssible to verify' hen^^^j,"!'""'^" ^'^ ^-^ '^e whole of these draws a cheque for $1,000 on the B.mque Nationl ^7", ""e. >"8tance, if Mr. Pacaud Peupe next day. it i« quite ea«y for Mr Pac^rlr, ?^^^^ '' '" ^''^ ^'^'^^"e du na e o the order of any one he pleases and the next datT. "'"^ -"^ "" '^"^ ^'"'^»« '^'^tio- but th.u deposit would be as foreign to tl"e cheque 1^ 'nirT •,' '" '''' ^'*"'^"^' <'" ^-^^P'^ Comnnss.on not to take, for granted that the.e emrt'l Z TT '° ' ^°^"^' "^^ the we can suggest to the Commission an ah,ni ^ absolutely conclusive at all • and Casgrain has suggested, it could be d°o.:.t:t:To:; 7"'''"^' "'' ''''''' ^"^"-- ^^ Mn have access to the books of the bank and to tl eTl no S.f" 'T\ '^^^"""*^"* "'^^ ^-^d banks dc not receive any money ..s deposits wUl oTm ^ f"'^ ''^'"l"'^^- O*' '^"U'^e the deposit ; and when bills or cheques are^n "f^^^ ;;;^'"f «"P« /« «l-w the nature of the they make an mterchange and it is therefore ,^uite 1 . *"""""'■' "" ''^^ *""«^ving day reference to the question asked by my et/neriV nd Mr V"'"'- ''"^ '^'^'="""'^- ^^^ -i* a uft,,ent discrepancy to warrant a close TvesSon^^^^^^^ "^'"'™' '" '"'^ *^^^« ^ Pacaud I understood left his bank book w HK " '' P'"'''""''''- "*^"^- Now Mr. them sufficiently to leave his books with ttmLr?""""- ^ "'"'^''^'"^'^ ^e trusted are not here when .hey ought to be so as to^ uf In r^s^rerify^hl Z^!"' "^ Hon. Mr. Irvine ;— Bystem which Mr. Pacaud has used in makinrhi^ '^ ' '^'^''' ''^"'^ "^^'^r under the Banque du Peuple or on any other bLrandd'ep; S^m ' '' '^ '''^ ' ^''^^^^ «» ^ no difference in the ultimate result of his statemen h * ^^ '" ^'''''^^' ^'^''^ it makes or he other is accounted for in all the banks T in 7"'' '"'?' '^"''^^ ^^ P»' *» ""e way Nationale and deposited in the Banque duPeu!^e I T" '* ''' '^'"^^ «»» ^^ 'he BanZ -Hon. A/r. Jms^jcc Jett^ .•— ' li«ber^r^E^t^tf-^^;;-^h ^ to know Should be estab- an accountant to search in the books of a banf w;^^^^ information that an official of the bank 00,,!^ ' ''^'°*' ^'^ '' * '^''^l stranger Tor want an order for the cashier or any oTher offi/'''."?' ''"'' ''^'''- ««««equently U y ° vouchee, which you may mention, we at plTrl^^^^^ ^'^'"^ '" P^^'u e'a explanation of the item now before us. ^ *° «'"'' «"^^ '^'^ "^^er, so a. to got Tn Ernest Paeavd 419 Mr. Casgrain : — During the adjournment my learned conlrerP Mr Hnii .a ,. . understanding a. to the application we wiirmake aa to th« ' t T"[ '''" ^"'"^ *° "^^ be produced by the cnshier. ^ *° *^'^ ^°°''« ^"^ other documents to ^o?i. lUr. Justice Jem ;— .11. accountaul. * """ "' '"'"' '" ""■•""'■> " wi" Mt be nece«ary to employ By Mr Casgrain ; — « J; "™ ''*■ ^- ^- "--. *»»■ ■ -. v,K,e m M. De.c™ ,ive ,„„ ,„ „,., A. Yes, Sir. Q. A new.paper which represent. ,o„r political Me,,' .ervatve ™ eT ""''"'"' "• '"' '"" ■' ' """>•■ ""—'<'«■ ">« the E.e,.,„^, „„ . „„„. .he i«;:r.:i"* ™ [~?; ""'" ^°" ""'» "■" ^- •"•'.^. -*».o„d .h.. A. Yes, I am in earnest. Q. You swear to that? A. Yes. I tlZZr """ '"' "'"•""•' ■" -» ■"'■ » — ..i,e „e„.p.pe,, ..tiiLpit^e^itr^r^^^^^^^^ A. Well, ,10 you „.„. „, to ,„o.r 1. three or fo„r .i„e. , H- les. A. Well, I swear that I consider that tho w.,' . • newspaper. "'^' '^^ Evenement is an independent conservative ^.>ai«:X^;t5n^^^^^^ name only appears connected with the Government and is nTa n^bUc ol l T' ^°^ ^^'- ^^'"'''^ ^^ "^t of a sum of money to him should not be the sub^ of ennut h"' '"* ' '''" *'^ P^^™-* Because a man is a journalist it does not make hi anTIhe l'" il>e payment to him cannot have any connection luTl^ t '' ^ ^''"""^^ ir.dividual. Oovernnrient, so I submit it is not a Itter ot enlu^;;'j^^^^^^^ '^^"^^^ "*?-"«t the Local under which Your Honours sit. ^ ^ '"'"'^^^ "^'"^^ under-the Commission i% ,■4 •V, ?. -ra 480 Ernest Pacaud Mr. Casgrain ; — I wish to show that th.8 money was used, almost altogether ..ither in paying the debts of the party to which Mr. Pacaud belongs or in incieaaine its chanop- n- . ? „ Tt prete..d that these *3.000 were paid with that object '"'""" *"^ ^ The Witness : - I have no objection to show Your Honours what value Mr. Demers gave me, but I ask to be protected so as not to be obliged to account to the public for the varro^stransac tions which I may have had with diflerent persons. iransac Hon. Mr. Justice Jettt : — it w Jgive'n!^"' ""■■ '''''"'• '''"' '' "°"'' '" ''"^'' ''' y°" *° «*^*« t^« P"'Po- for whi'ch The Witness : — Mr. Deme^ gave me a draft for 13,000 upon the Iiovincial Secretary, accepted by the Provmcial feecre tary lor a printing account to be paid at the next session. I Xk the dralt and I deposited it in the Union Bank ; I added the interest, I discounted thTdift myself and I gave him $3,000. u^v-uu.iteu me oratt Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Payable after the session ? A. No at a date certain, I believe it was at six months ' Q. Now I see, that you state in a part of your evidence after having spoken of the Union Bank accounts that the account balances. You say: "there is an amount for Tt2 r ; m! ' , ^ " * ^^^"'"^^ *''°°""* f'^"" '^'^ B**e des Chaleurs matter Had you at the same time other accounts at tlie Union Bank '"auer. A. No, Sir. Q. You had only the account for the Baie des Chaleurs matter? A. I had only one account for all transactions. Q. You had only one account for all transactions ? A. Yes. Q. At all the banks? A. At all the banks. Q. Coming now to the Banque du Peuple, you state that you deposited m 000 »t fh. Banque du Peuple to guarantee discounts; this was on the 10th o7 August'Tou stat August 10th. to Mr. Dumoulin. to guarantee discounts at the Banque difprple«3 0r? Q. In mother part of your evidence, you .t.te th«t before leaving for Earone you wi«heH (The witness takes communication of the Banque du Peuple statement ) A. That IS an error of the accountant, it was not the tenth of August Whaf ooo«.,-«„»^ the error Your Honour, is that the cheque which I deposited with S Lrqt' duTupIe Ernest Pacaud ■ ate bearmg on the inquiry before us. Now ^he note shewn to us convinces us tTat It was nbso utely disassociated with this $100,000. As a consequence we T i^rde re to pres. the inquiry further. Then with respect to the transactions between Mr. plcauTand other parties they seem to me to rest on this basis, that we ought not to bring heZl the public the names ot innocent parties unless primd facie they had to do with the disposal of rSIts'^f the ^rr'-, "^"^ ''""^'"" ^" *'^* '^^^^^ ^'« --« perhaps to do wSh he rights of these third and innocent parties than with any responsibility Mr. Pacaud n av have or any desire he may evince to evade an explanation as to their details. Furthe more I am not disposed to adopt the general principle that because a transaction has taken place on a date removed from the dates within which Mr. Pacaud handled this $100,000 that it k not a question into which we should inquire. -piwu.ouu, mat it is It is quite evident that the note now in question was a bit of party financing and has nothing whatever to do with the present matter. ^ Mr Casgrain : — did I?e ifa^I^ryS^''''"'^'^' ''""'" ^^-^^^"^^^ '''''''' ^^"^^^ -^ ^-'--y none^ith *i^''°''' ''^' '^'"'' '" ''"' '' ' "'" remember with Senator Pelletier, and he left Q. He left you none ? A. None. Hon Mr Justice Davidson :— Now, as I understand it, you have these three accounted for. Mr.HaU.— There is one not accounted for. Ernest Pamud 483 stion for the moment. financing and has Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— By Mr. Casgrc n :— Q. xNow, Mr. Pacaud, as to the letter which you wrote to Mr Par,, • BaiedesChaleurs matter, do you remember wLfWfh„rw; ^'''"!'^"' respectmg the the 25th of April ? rememher whether that letter was written on a Saturday, ' A. I do not remember the date ^<^'^Mr!:^^^:Z^^'irV^ ^^^-^^-^^^ °^ ^P"'. ^ Saturday, Mr. Garneau sends for yo^IS tell S/thr^ou h!! r "^'"''"i"' '""''''' ^^'^'^ ' ^''^^'i a letter ? ^ *^"^ ^ *"" ^^'^ ^^'-^» ^'*^>^3^ mdiscreet to write himsuch A. No, that is not exact. Q. In what ? Q. What expressions did he make use of Q. He did not give you to understand that you had been indiscreet? Q. He blamed you for having written him that letter? A. No. Q. What did he say to you on that occasion ? A. On that occasion, I went to see him and said to him • " Mr p„rn» t you will pardon me if I interfere in a matter of tLtTn^ 'V™ • .^"^'^eau, I wrote to you Thom threatens to leave : if he I averno one will take unTh '' " !'''■ 'f ''^"^ ^"«'"^«« ' ^'^ Railway, the road wil not be built, tL woricnTen wtll not », T^ 1 -^^ ^''' desChaleurs That i, the substance of that conversatir ^' ^^'^' ""^ '' ^"' ^« disastrous." Q. This was after the passing of the Order in Council ? A. I do not remember whether it was before or after. Q. You do not remember please, Mr. P.c»u,l, notice Ihaton the fourth ofXrimrvl^ H .""■ «'"' >"»'. if Jo" ■ B.iede.a»„„„.„„..e.io„. I co,„.e„cefo„\roTh"TM:7:r'™or:L°„';.i.s,: 484 Ernest l\icaud the Baie des Chalouis tiansiiction, and I ask fhnt T i.» ♦ <• transactions previous to the 6th of May. " '""'^ '° ^'''^^^ "P°" ™^ l>«nking J/r. Caagrain :~ I am obliged to make the same reauost, i,, iha r^ would ask Mr. Pacaud to withdraw tomm.smon which I made yesterday, I Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— It seems to us to be a question which you should answer, Mr. Pacaud The WUness:— ifore. j»/r. Justice Jetti :— What is the number of that exhibit before the Senate ? Mr. Casgrain : — 38, Your Honour. The Witness :— Q. At what date ? A. On the sixth of May, at the Saving Bank brand, of the Union Bank Q. There were at that time in the Union Rant =. u amount waa charged ? ° ^*"''' «o™e cheques against which that A. I do not know ; in any case, I k.ow that I drew on the ninth of May. Q. How much ? ^ A. I drew B-5,000. Q. *5,000 on the ninth of May ? A. On the ninth of May. Q. Will you now ascertain from your Union Bant Kir., on the fourth of May you had only Civ^do Lra an > f- ""^ '' '" "°* *™^ '^''' credit ? ' ""^'^^ *^°^'*™ «nJ forty-five cents (f 12.45) to your 1. The balances are not entered in mv book Yn,,,. it tions I would have to make to find the balance "" ' ^°" ""'^ '"' *^« °»'o"'a- (The witness shorn hU bunk book to the Commission.) Ernest Pacaud 486 iwer upon my banking I made yesterday, I aud. r. Caagrain the exac'w ; I prefer to make ad 16,000.20 in the ink. gainst which that klay. is not true that (fl2.46) to your y see the caloula- Q. Will you if you please compare this statement here with your bank boo'- and state whether it does not correspond aa to th.» totals ? ^ i hhk doo . ana state A. The judges haw my book, I cannot make the calculation now. Mr. Caagrain: — m.^t:i^Zl7. "" '""'"'^'°"' "^ ""'■ ^^^'^ ^« '^ '^ -"^^' - -" «^t ^- to inaut h^t :^^;;:j::^t:i.^r^ ^'''' ^^^^ '-' '--' ^'- ^--^' -« heard ofte^rojlf'- '' "" """'^' *° "^ '^ ^°"^^ "^^^« ^'^^--^ ^^^^^ '^ey had not " You succeeded in raising the amount required to pay them " or ^omethintr HWb thof but nothing particular that I c.uld mer.tion. ^omethmg like that, PelleUr '*''"^' ^ '"'""'"' ^^° '^'* '*'''' ^'•^'^ °"'^ *^^^ ^'^""^^ ^'^"ks left with Mr. A. Yes. Q. Besides that there were other notes endorsed by Mr Mercer ? A. Yes. BaielThlLtr m:n:yT' ^^^'^ '° *'^ °*^'«^ ^^^ ^^^^ -- P-^ ^y you out of the apphtgeTanJltelir"^^ " °"^ ^^^^^^ ^' "°*- -"^^ ^^- - --^-. i* l,<,fn2\f r ""'" ■^°" '*l^'' ^'1 P'^°'^"d' ^ho made the statements which you produced here before the Commissi.^n , being Exhibits Nos. 88, 87, 88, 89 and 90 ? P^^ucea nere A I got Mr. Sancer. accountant of Montreal, to come here, and I said to him • " I am to render a full account to the last cent of the moneys which passed through my hanTs smce I managed the Baie des Chaleurs business ; here are all mv cheques al my notes and my vouchee and everything, prepare a statement of account for me, so that I may be able ^ give all the mformat.on that can possibly be given to the Commission." I gave him aU oIlT'Vl^''^:^^'^^^ '"y h°"««-- he prepared these statements. Exhibits Nos 86 87 88 89 and 90, and he told me : « You account for every cent." 1 had aCfcheques 'Sie statements prepared by the banks and the otherstatements.they are certified by the Ih^r Q. When did you draw the $20,000 from the Saving's Branch of the Union Bank ^ A. The $25,000? Q. Yes, the $25,000 rather, A. The $25,000 I could retrace Q. Was it not on tb 'wanty-ninth of September ? A. It is not entered m my bank book, but it is since my return from Europe. Q. But 18 It not true that it vas on the twenty-ninth of September ? A. I can not say so absolutely. Q. You have already said so in your evidence ? A. Probably from the bank statement. Q. When did you return from Europe ? A. On she twenty-sixth of September. •Q. Then w.is it before the first of October that you irow th m > ii\m i ? H 48(i Ernest Pacaud Q. Yes? A. I put them in my safe. Q. In your safe. A. Not the whole amount ; I spent some of it. Q. You spent some of it. A. Yes. Q. $5,000? A. Remained in my safe. ""uusana / the fe ^h rMranrerJr^hrsLTAtr^- r ^- '^- - o- made on another sum of five thousand dollars (15 (Xw!? ^' " "°* *"'" '^^* ^^^ "^n* him A. No, Sir. Q- You are certain of that? v A. Oh ! yes. thou8an^fivrrundre'^'t;,a^%^7;S,oTo^^ Trf "^ *^« "^^^"« ^°r "even possession? ^ ' '^ °" "'^ Montreal Bank, which you had in your A. Well ? Q. Where did that cheque come from ' •.together pr,™.., .„d had „„.«„, J,„ wu'ul Blilt lZ„'^Zr '"" '"" "" ^'•. Casgrain : — cheque if we can't see it. ^* '''^*' ^^^ Commission should see that Hon. Mr. Justice Jem ;— We will suspend that question. Cross-examined by Hon. Mr. Irvine :~ I declared in my examination in chief thur T v,„^ m cmef, thai I had never agreed upon a price for my I I ;*1 f Ernest Pacaud 487 services, either with Mr. John J. Mac 'onald or Mr. Cameron; I added that Mr Hector Cameron had confirmed me on this point in a conversation I had with him rLondon Since I gave my evidence, I cabled to Mr. Cameron, telling him what I had tlL before the Comission on this subject, and I received an answer from him. Mr. Casgrain : — This is not legal evidence, it is simply, for effect, for the gallery. The WUneis :— Mr rlTnn''"" "" "°^^ "^ '^u "'^^^^^^^"^ ^hich I sent to Mr. Hector Cameron, and I have Mr. Cameron's answer corroborating what I said here respecting him. Hon. Mr. Justice JeM : That is not proof, that is a declaration that is not sworn to. Mr. Casgrain : — I can state that our instructions are, that if Mr. Hector Cameron was here on oath h« would not state what is stated in that cablegram. ' * 3fr. Btique : — We will probably examine Mr. Murphy so as to get at the source of the information. Mr. Amyot : — As I know Mr. Cameron, I protest against this insult offered to him. Hon, Mr. Justice Jetti ;— ^J^.ZZS^:^" "'■<=""-»"»><' '••'e''no..h anything el., ,h.. .h« Mr. Casgrain : — i w«,bil*l'"''*'',!i^*V"''""''*^' I«*^*«^thato..r instructions are. th.tifMr Cameron wa« here, he would not state on oath what is stated in his cablegram. Mr. Amyot : — That is pretty much the same thing. Hon. Mr. Irvine : — If this were considered as being of any importance, it would perhaps be necessary to issue another Commission to London to examine Mr. Cameron. necessary to Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — We might perhaps go ourselves. Hon. Mr. Irvine: — With the counsel. \i:'^-' ^if p •188 Ernest Pucaud Mr. BHque ;— Certainly it would be necessary. Hon. Mr. Mercier .— And bring Pacftud also. Mr. Cuf grain .•— J« all that entered in the deposition Hon. Mr. Irvine:— :r:r!"^---'---— «.»«.o. By Mr. BMque .— Q- VV 1th A.r8.Pacaud also » A. Yes. Q. At what date wasthar "°"'" "'^ ''^^'"'^ **>« ^^^-'"er through Mr. Harris A. On two different occasions before I left Q. Now, you spoke of a draft U ty. fl A. I believe it was three thousaTd ''' '""''^' ^«"^™ ^ Q. Can you verify the fact? A. (After verifying.) Three thousand dollars. Q. was „n y that draft which was renewed by note v Q. That is the exhibit. *^^ Honourable Charles Langelier. A. 89-3. Juhn J. MacUonald 489 beliet S b'an"; wiy ' "" "" "''' "*"«""«« »»'•'* ™'«^t ^^^ve misUd them orn,„de them Br Mr. Casgrain ;— A. It was the twenty seventh of February Q. 1891 •/ ' A. 1891. Q. Was it three thousand five hundred dollars ? A. Tliree thousand. Chaleurs matter ; it was only as a.ent W M Prll fl k ^^^ T'^'""^ '° ^° ^'^^ Bale de« sum ,.fone hundred dollars mmZr BofcheUe Lh ?'' ^'' ^'^^'^'' '° «^"J ">- * Mr. Rainville, and that is how it hapTenerthat Mr J„ ' '''n^ '''''' ^"""'^'"^ ^°"««' ^^' n^entioned. I give this explanation to con.lwTh rJ"','' ""'"' ^°"^« '° ^-« ''^^'^ matter .hould be explained It is item SS K-^'^^'He's request, wha asked that the Hon. Mr. Justice JetU ;~ I .h.11 in any cm, .l„.y, be « .he di,po..l of .he Corami„i„„. I K 70H, , McBOHAII,, o, Riv.. dn .„np, „..„«„„ „„.„^, .^.,„,^ ,_ By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :~ Q- Please do so? A. Here it is (producing same.) Q. You fyle it as Exhibit No. 101 ? A. Yes Sir. Exhibits No. 1 and No. 2 ? syndicate under the Ordera-in-Council- A. $420,000. That is how I made it out. »r-r 410 John J Macdimald Q- You make it $42n,00(J? pock?. "r;:!r„«'r t^rr/z;'"""' " ""• ^°'' "> -^ "- »• -' ^»--' »-.„ A- He was to trminfer the contract to me H« wo„l ■ Q. The whole contract - °' «'™ °"' "" '»'""»' '" "■ A. Tho whole contract. Q. What was that $150,000 suppcerl to reoresPnt ' Q.- »:: ;o,r:::;:r ;:;r "''• """ "■- ™ •'-■- '- - — Mr. Biique ;— .o/„°!'h"::,rrM;ci'er'°"""' '°'"""'°' ""' "x""" "»'«™-« »,. »,ti„.t« „, .h. , I have found some other papen, since I was here before. Mr. Hall ;_ 8r.n?m".,T "" "'"'' """" ""»• -"■""on.-B.Uw.y Re.o,nti„„.-„„,„ „m„h „„ -By Hon Mr. Justice Davidson ;— Q. Produce what you have. j;»n,).eurJ"t''cXt:'%Va';t:h': tzz\^. " t^i i ■»•"<' -« »' "-^ the clause I objected to. '^ " °*^ ^^^ ^""^ ^^ich was built. That is Q. You might read that portion of the chu.,e to which it refers ? acres of land per mile, in all not to exc'eed 6^8 ^cres " "" ' '"'"'^ °'^'°"^ '^'"^ (Copy of Resolution filed as Exhibit So 102 ) the road 80.. - ,,.. , of lend. "SCis the am A ?>f "" f "°^ P'^^^ ^°^ ^^ '""e" of the statute, an.: • ^u' w^ .e on« T-L 5. ,? x" ^^ '"^o^u^ons which now appear in i« another p.p.. J .^H^ T m n^ ^'^ ^''•"'' ^^^"^ ^ «°°«"lted him,.!^^ e Mr. Charley 'in.v. ^t- amo g^tt ir^hrno^ ^'""*"'"- ^* ^"^^^^^ ™^"' gin papers. It has not been returned to bim Here is John J Macdnnald \n Cascapodia bridj^o. rs. I offered to do it for ' them out of yoiir own lilesofthe road finished, irmit you to go into the ae an interest in it. $00,000 in the contract, his estimates of the )n8— under which this 10,000 acres of land was buiit. That is onaleno'i-hofabout bsidy of about 10,000 I not sure whether I issed for 80 miles of 'hich now appear in ulted him Here It was given me by to him Here is 7^::Ti^:^:' '/^n^: tr r" T-^" ■" *' '"■" -"i'— ^^^ from the court in two lettors wrUte.. by Mr. Cameron and Mr. Irvine.-part of Jhem' fre :/ a^p^v'trnatu; Q. 1)0 you object to those letters being filed ? Q. Is that all ? rebrtrytb.'Sl*^ "'^' °'^ ^^"^^ ""'^«" ''^ Mr. Cameron to Mr. Mercaer, from Montreal. Mr. Beique: — Q. Will you read the other one first,— No. 103. (The letter was then read as follows :) 135, St. Peter street, Quebec, 17th March, 1891. My dear Camehon, Ar2ln7Jj::T '" ""^^ ''"' '° "^ '"'"''''' °^- ""' ^^"^^ - ™« --^ told me that Armstrong had made an arrangement wi.n Riopel to take over the Baie des Chaleurs Ra>lw«y on behalf of a syndicate which he had succeeded in forming, and that thev w r to see Mercer on the following day and endeavor to arrange with him. He Pacaud then asked me to telegraph to Macdonald and tell him of it. adding that of cou.e he would have the first chance and that he would have time to conside^ ! p LJ that Armstrong went partof the way to New- York with them, and the subject was discusTed. Pacaud then w.red me from New-York to try and get M«cdonald to make up his min ha ^eyco„s,dered he had the preference but that they did notliketo,^^^ bim that you and Macdonald were to be here on Monday and that I would telegraph after rdLr-k""'^" ' "'''' ''""^ "" ^'" -^■°" ""''' °°* --^'-^ ' telegraphe^toTol ?h Wmdsor askmg you to wire Pacaud at Brunswick Hotel, New-York, on the subject Did you reeve my message ' I don't think it likely that an enterprise such as they oCpl^te coul beorgamzed in such „ hurry, particularly as Mercier I am sure wv him and he said that it wasn't enough. ■•^'".wu in my Q. Are you perfectly positive about having made that statement ? A. I am perfectly positive. I couldn't be'more positive of anything. I „. S-?.".wi'"" ^"'""^^'«° f'^^'i '" ««"««* *^' lie wa« surprised at hearing that any such sum ^ *.0,000 was mentioned, and that he only expected to gfet $3,000 or $4:000. Can you tell i^ I how It W)i8 he was astonished ? ^ , ^ ,vuv. y^au > ou leii us menttn^r'l'nl"'" T'^' ""'^ ^'^''''»^'^'i ^^ I'^aring that Mr, Pacaud wa« astonished at the ment on o any such sum, judging from the moneys I have paid him before. I paid him I over four thousand dollars for an estimate on $30,000, and wm. forced to do it. I last sLmer^^"'"'^ ''''" ''"''' *^'' ^' ^^^ ^ conversation with Hector Cameron some time Mr. Biique .'— I object to the witness answering, all these questions in the absence of Mr. Irvine. , 'm^-^ 494 h ' John J. Macdonald Mr. Justice Davidson, [to Mr. Hall) :—• Are yon going to press this question any lurther ? Mr. Hall:— No, Sir. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Well, I think the witness had hetter answer it. The Witness : — I don't know whether he had a conversation or not. What was the By Mr. Hall:— conversation about ' Q. I want to know whether you are aware that Mr. Pacaud had a conversation with Mr. Hector Cameron some time last summer with reference to thi, stntlrT ! V^ ! T ..id Jj P.c.,,.1 .h« y„„ w„„l<,rp,., *iO,0» i„ .he e«r»«14°, ta^.'ntSrpl" .'T^.^, that Mr. Cameron was surprised at this. I would lik^ tn l-n^,., u- -^acaud state. I Mr. Cameron that you wol ,ut or had put 7^^:, ^J^yZ :Z::T''' '' Parlitm^t^buikilngt '"' '" ^ ""~'°" ' ''' ^^^" ' ^^^^^ *« ^^^ hotel from the Q. Did you tell Mr Camemn that you had put 150,000 into the estimate ■> there I toS'ht;. " "" '"" '''*• ""' ""^ '' '''' ^'- ^-"« Hotel, and when I got ^; *^n r.l"*^""''!^' 'V^'u ^''''^ ""^^'^ y°" P"* '° y«"^ estimate or calculation there is a sum of $oO,(iOO mentioned there ? ^luauun mere is a A. Yes, there is. Here is a place where it says " For sundries, interest etc $50 000 • I have put xn another place " $200,000 to pay debts,", which ino uded 4 £c!ur I generally put it under the head of sundries. -racaua s. i Q. Is there any indication in the way of paging in your book' A. No, Sir, it is not paged. Here is '^ Debts to be paid $200 000 interest «40no(. engineering $20,000." f-^vjv.wu, interest i|i40,000 Q. In another place you have $200,000 to pay debts ? A. Yes, Sir, that is $150,(100 for Riopel at that time' and t.-^omc\ t^ r> j ,. , n.akes the $200,000. I think also I have I in another Ze ff I am Sm s^SrY^ t^' m another place where I say " Debts to pay $200,000," and showing a profit of $96 ^95 in the figuring. There is another place $200,000, the same way. I think I might state aiso thlt Mr.R.opelor Amstrongnskedmewhatlwas paying F'acaud, and I told them naTn- paying anything because I never entered his name or admitted to any person exc^ to Mr. Cameron that I was doing any such thing. oa«-bpi w Q. That was a matter of delicacy with you ? A. Well, a matter between ourselves. It was my own business.' By Mr. Beique : — Q. You have produced letters here as Exhibits No. 103 and 104. and you have exhibited another letter o. 11th ot March Irom which you have quoted a portion. Those leUers I isuppose you were made aware of at the time they wore written. A. I can't say that. Mr. Cameron handed them to mn some time after. -^V— —im—J i , i/iiiiiiiB John J. Macdvnald 495 the conversation about ? r calculation there is a 000, interest $40,000 Q. When ?— a few days after he got the letter from Mr. Irvine ' A. I sur^ose it was communicated to me a few days after. I think the first intination I go was with reference to Mr. Irvine being in New-York and wanting an answer Q. It was before you left for Europe ? A. Yes Sir. Q. You left for Europe at what time ? March. ^ *'''''' ^°* '^ ™«'^0'-'^"''">" somewhere giving the date. I think it whs the 25th of Q. Isn't it the 19th of March ? A No. Sir. I think the 25th. I thought I had a memorandum that I took down below from SY^rk"^ '''■'"''''"'' ""* ' "^^ '^^- ^^""^ ^ ^^-^-^ - ^^^^^n Q. You can't state exactly the date that you left for Eurof)e ' I saiitd .^ *^'°^ ^ reaxeraher that it wa. on the 23rd that I saw Pacaud, and it was the 25th Q. This book that yuu have deposited with the clerk of the Commission contains vour estimate of the expenses that would be required to complete the first sixtv mile onhe road and your estimate of the cost of the work to complete the forty additional miles ' A. An estimate of what I considered it would cost to complete the first sixty miles and the cos up to the time the statements were all copied into tha book. I arterwa ds" d ome more figuring m trying to get closer. aii^erwarus ai dsome Q. Any way this is the book that you showed Mr. MerciHr at the time you had the interview with him as you mentioned ? ^ "® A. Yes, Sir. Q. At the time you were accompanied to his office by Mr. Cameron ' was tith L' Itte ut."^' '^™ '^^^ '" '""^ ''^'^^'^ ^""-- ' ^'-'^ *^-k Mr. Cameron 1, ^^\f "'/°".«*'^^e from those estimates what was the amount entered in vour book AThis^wi^^^ A. inis shows *69,230. I think I called it generallv $70 00(» „hi;h' '^7" .f^V^^t'' '■'•"'» that book what was your" estimate of the cost of the forty additional miles from Cascapedia to Paspebiac ? ^ A. It is figured up in difierent ways here. One shows $19.80. Q. I am sp.;aking of the estimate you showed Mr. Mercier ? A. I didn't show him any particular estimate. These are the totals for the seventieth to the eighf.eth miles as given me by Mr. Leduc and Charles Armstrong seeine that th« Q. Will you say if you do not find the following entry in your book ■ " FstJmnf. f the 60th to the 70th mile "-well, you might take tlfe book' yo^Z^i^J^T '"" A. This IS an estimate from the 60th to the 70th mile the bulk sum is $243 877 Q. Will you say if you do not find in your book the followiuL' entry • " Rnip.lo. pi i Railway : estimate of work required to be done from the mitZi. mHe' anTtheT estimate from the 60th to the 70th mile " and then th. totals amounting to 1247 877 ' " «ee (tdlliCSame? ''''"' '''" ''''^'' '^^ ''' ^ ^''^^^^^ ^^^"-'-' ^'^ou may '1,1 ^ '313 496 John J. Maatonald Q. That Wiis from the 60th to the 70th mile ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Will you go on and Hud from the 70th to the 80th mile ? o«, _t- ^J:°'" '"^^ ;";> '° *'V^ 80th mile *148,746.25. From the 80th to the 90th mile 1195 - 287./5. From the 90th to the 100th $114,407. ' Q. A nd the totals from each of these amounts make up the grand total ' nn. '^•, ^^^'7 ^^^^^J/o- but there is a great deal more which is not in this. There are notes at the bottom ot every one of these of a good deal more work to be done Pa^pebirr """ ''""' *°'" ''"" '"^'"^ '^'"'"' "'■ ^'^"^ '"'^^''^ '^ °°™Pl«t« the road to. A. Here is a statement which I have fieured un Thpa^ f!0nn when I met Mr. R,opel. At first, it was $150,000 and I increased it to li?5 000 ' A. No Sir. Q. Or whether it comprised any payment to be made to Mr. Pacaud? A. No Sir, I never did. Q. Will you say what this estimate of $200,000 does comprise ? A. It comprises $150,000 to be deposited in the bank of Montreal to.pay off.the debts of. mkdtn to the 00th mile 1195,-. ercier what was thn John J. Macdonald 497 pay off. the debts of. the company to Mr Riopel, and r,0,000 I proposed to pay Mr. Pacaud during the progre-s o "^.^t'^Kol '^r'^'l "''''''"'^' *° *^'''^' '^^ '^' ^ ^••- «i"P^l i« concerned Q Ihis $loO,()00 afterw.rds increased to $175,000 to Mr. Riopel what was it wa« intended to pHy . A. It was intended to pay the debts of the company as far as I was aware Q. What debts ? A There were debts on the road which I understood had to be paid in full Those were he instructions of Mr. Mercier. and I got some statement in the Department Zl think I allowed them to be $42,000 to pay the amounts due along the roaS according to the statement I saw at the time. I think it was about $42,000, and I think Mr Cooper's amount was $18,000,-somewhere about that-and he was to have got his proportTon of whatever we paid the other.s,-the Ontario Bank and the Eastern Townships Bank what^ ever portion they were to get,-30 or 40 per cent-Cooper was to come in for th^ lame price but he contended that he was guaranteed by Armstrong also, so that his amount would have to be paid in full, independent of what was going into the bank. Q. What was the amount going to Mr. Riopel,,.. about ? A. I sometimes thought about $40,000. It would ail together depend unon the settle ment they would make with the outside creditors. ' ^' Q, What was it to cover ? A. They were to transfer to me the stock,... that is all I was to get from them the .tock of the company. I contended that they were well paid already out of the moneys ad! anced by the two G.)vernui iuts for that 60 miles. •""ej's aa By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson ;— Q. Do you include Mr. Armstrong ? A. Ye., but I told that to Mr. Riopel. I had some conversatiou with Mr. Armstrong but Mr Riopel always preferred to consider their two accounts together to besettled between themselves. I already understood that he had a written offer of $50,000, as the sum that Mr Armstrong would take, but Mr. Thom told me that Armstrong would take $30,f)00. Mr. Beique. Q. So that the amount you were to pay Mr. Riopel and Mr. Robitaille was for the purpose of your getting po.ssession of the stock and the road ? ■ .t/o-®''',^"'l*°/''^ "'""^ ^^^''' '^"d if there was anything left after those debts were paid, Mr. Riopel and Mr. Armstrong would have it themsel ves. . Q. You say you went to England about the 25th of March ? X. 1 think it was the 25th of March. Railway Company?''"' "^"^ '" '"' ''"'" *"'' **^ ^oat the bonds of the BaiedesChaleurs A. I spoke to Mr. Heaton Armstrong and told him that there were arrangements going on tkrough Mr Cooper, and probably I would be with him, and he was getting $60 So more that I got from the Government, and if the thing went through I wanted to know^f he would be prepared ^ take the bonds on the same conditions as he would if I were doing luZrinTthe ma^r ^'" ^'^" '''''''^' ^^ ^" ''^'^ ^« '^^ ^'^ ^"- -^ ^ ft 82 ;:1G 498 John J. Macdonald m M? Mr. up. A. \e8 sir. Q. Will you refer to the Blue Book containing a conv o' vn„r ^v„„w *• " Q. Did it cover anything else ? disclt Si' "'"''' ' ""'' '"" ^° ^'^^' ^°"^^ "'^'^^ "-^« -h-'^ P-haps need not be " Q. I think we will have to ask you what it did cover? P t T!,"' ^ ^".V"^"" '"^' ^«*''"^*''« «f" *-'2'^-000 the sum of $50,000, likely to be oaid to Pacaud during the progress of the work. ^ ^ ^'^ " Q. *oO,00(), as the subsidies became due, I suppose''' "A. Well, I would be always wanting favors with^he Government, just as thev turned As the work progressed I m ght be reouired tn o-Pt <.^,v,„ u .,'.•'"'"' "^/"^^ ^"^ned time called for by the contract. ^ ^ '""' '"^''*^'"^ P*^'^ '^«''«'-e '^e II Q. You do not mean any fai^ors to which you were not honestly entitled ? " Q. What Government do you refer to? " A. The Mercier Government. '• Q. That is, you might require some favors of finances to thp ,v>nfr.,.* u- i quite usual, out of this Government subsidy of $400,000? ^""tractors which are " A. Not usual. They are very strict generally. ' " Q. Did you think that Mr. Pacaud, if heffotsnmofhm^ r„;„i,f of subsidies which were legitimately due ^'.^J^^' «^'™«'h'°^' might secure you thepayment " A I do not doubt that what I had in view wa« to have him assist me at any time I required assistance. ««»«oi, me ui, uny time l " Q. And that is what you calculated ? " A. That is what I put in my estimate. and 'yots^ehf *'*'' ""'""'' intermediary between the Provincial Government of Quebec " A. Yes Sir. " Q. Why did you come to that conclusion with regard to Mr Pacaud? to p^- h JS t "" """' '" "' " '"'"*' '°' '' '^ '^'^ ^"^'^^"^ ^- -« I was prepared " Q. Why did you expect to pay for that. " A, I am not prepared to say here. " Q. Was it from past experience ? " A. I do not care to go into my post experience. It is not here under discussion " Q. I do nrt wish to preos you further except to ask one oupsfinn w^ o. ^ ^• .he mmm .ub.id.v Wre. W.. U f,„„ p„. e,p'e,ie„oe S^JXIdrpt'S""'' " A. I suppose it was really that. " Q. That was the only reason, wa« it not ? " A. That is all. Sir, yes. Q. Now, Sir, was that the evidence you gave ? fj 'll John J. Macdonald 499 this matter before the 1 perhaps need not be , likely to be paid to jntractors which are kfernment of Quebec A, Yes, Sir. A. I don't know whether it wo, or not. It will .how lor itself A. My answer " my past experience " would be about the answer to that question. Q. Now, you have stated that vou considfi-Pfl ti,n* ♦!.« o $160,001) more than vou hnd been ask 1 iX Wi T' ^yr^^\^c^ie was getting A. I applied for $10,000, per mile for the 40 miles to be hnilf Thnf ,• x a ^ ^ land from Metapedia to Casc^riru^i^/tfltrtre^rid ^Tivt ^1^ " I roqmred to hu,ld the forty miles, and I called Mr. Pacaud's attention t! It Zl^h T^^ was then ehanged into the shape in which it is now. and M Paclud told 1 H "T ' Mercier had written the clause as it was there nn.l ,inrl»,. fLfV f ^ "'"* ^^''• applies to 80 miles of the lo.d If vou «U V T , ^ u ' '"""'^ ^^* ^^^ ™°»«y- I* tiiitat35centspertre ; luchwL het^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^■-^^- ™i>es and $140,(100 with the $:i60 000 would Jvp Jnonon . P"' '**"''' "^^ convertible 1280,000 between the GOthT^l^f.rro rX'^Cw I J ifaU iTokT' '''''' ""'''' That is all I expected the statute to be. I took it din to M. t ?'u°'' ^'^P^^'^^- under that clause he thought it was all riirV: s^irtha^t ^ h a: oJl^t clmch l^'l could give It to me. I was quite satisfied with thit nn,l on t .„; . .u ^0""cii they », Mr. Tho„ .„„ ,«„ra h^w^ getting k^rir'^i \:«criZaj'::'j to understand how they came to make an ofler of SRI fin nno r^ ♦ J- couia not come practical man in it, ani they said thev waXd" p actraCranVtVa^'f Tl,' ""'"'^ * as I got in it. I then saw in writing ihe Order L'^^ouncn. "''''''^ '"^ "^ '"^"^ Q. Are you referring to the letter ? A. The Order in Council may be with the letter. We have the Ordpr i,, p«, -i v. show however. I saw this letter when I made thxs state ^en to iXo-Ssr^'tV^ day-x thought then that the last 35 cents was also cash, but I wa^notX about it l-'f Baid m my evidence in the Senate, but when 1 eot those lpttpr« nf \r t ' "" ^ getting the whole 800,000 applied to the forty mt. 'rzo em/pefa^cr' I^l '' ""^ afterwards to Mr. Pacaud that I did not think he had trea^d me proper vw^^rw"' .wahows... Id.L^knowhowi^h^,o;:d:d ^^^^^ SIZ^Z^^ Q. Mr. Pacau.l was not your legal adviser ? Mr. Cameron was that ' claust ""'' ^'^""" "" "'' '' "" ^^- ^'-^'"^ -^« -'^l i^ -« -^ very extraordinary .ot XJS::^::^ r ^ ^ "'^"^^ °^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^- ^-- -^^ ^r. Cameron were 600 John J, Macdona/d . A. In making the affreomont they were yes eub«?dyf ''""'^^''^^"^'^^^^ ^'"" ^""-"-^ '^^-» 'he statute and the aue«ti„n of the A. I consulted Mr Irvine a. to the interpretation of that clause. no doubt however that Mr. Cameron saw U "''"" '" '' particularly. I have 1 ?e.s slr^"'"'' '^"^ *^' '"""'" ""^ P"''"'' '" December Lt? Q. Yon had from December till the middle of March fn f?n,>i i^ * u . accept the subsidy as granted by the statute Whvr/ ' tn whetheryon would the Government and intimate to tenUhatV ,„ I '' ,^'°" ""' '" '^'' "'^"" ^""« ^^"'« '*> by the statute. ''^ * "" ^''" ^'^''"'■'' ^° "^^^^Pt the subsidy as granted interteJ;;iTh:Str'^'^^''^'"^'^''^^^'*^'-^^^- ^-e been able to have gettmgu.bene.t.ri..;.o:^:iZc^r;::t;;;:,r::::^^ "*^^ -'^- n^ile^-iro::. nt'tTat 1^ :fallrctwl?7 Tri"^^ ' ^^ ^^ ^^^ *^«'<'«0 P- could have got more I wotrhal: Isked ^.t ft iry soof "^ "^ ''''''' ""^^ '' ' *^-«^^' ^ JYous^a.dthatyouhadinvourpossessionarrenchver.sionofthestatuteaspassed. Q. And you had also an English vereion of it as passed ' A. Yes, I think I had, but I did not know wl,ere these copies were Q. WW., n. Quebec when the Hailway Kesolutions wL pasTIi by the House. Q. And you were looking for that especially '> A. Yes, Sir. 1 fpllslo I'hld.^"'"^' ""'"^ "''' '^"^ ^ ^^--^ --- -^'-P And thereupon the Commission adjourned till -2 P.M. 2 o'clock, p. m., the 28th October, 1891 siJ.ToUo^s"'''''''''''''''''^ -tractor continues his depo. By Mr. Beique :— Q. In your evidence before the Senate Commil.ee did you no. ,ay „, folio™ • " Q. W«B that offer of $17.5,000 accepted by Mr. Riopel? '•.oJatu'tbe:s':;Liiy™;LTeSi;';rr b""""''v''"''*'' '• ™ ^'"""y- ■■ »y Offer and I .red for i.. U^^ZX^T^. 'r^SZt, t^.. ZlZ 11 >'f John J. Macdonald 601 the question of the 3 been able to have le statute as passed? by the House ? clown to Quebec, that I had arrnnj;ed with Mr. Riupd, and that I wanted hi.n to have the '■ a^ItT r"' ' "'•• '^/'V-''"^ ""'^'' *'" «''"• ^'«"^«^ !--« «« -'i-tor in Quebec t" ^^ assist Mr Cameron in look.ng into the matter. Whon Mr. Cameron arrived in Qnobe.' I ^^ saw Mr. Irvn.e. and ma.lo an „r,pointn,ent at his office to arrange the as^'reoment. Mr. ^_ St. L, u,8 Hotel. Mr. R.opel thon saul he h«d not agreed to the arrangement ; he insisted "Wnnwi '"^r/!f "■''*'" '^' '''"'™'' ""'* ^^''^"'^^ '"^ ^« •^^''•™« '^l' the debts without knowmg what they were. I rcfuse.l to go in and the thing broke off at that " Q. Whs that the evidence you gave before the Senate Committee'' A. Yes, Sir. Q. Then that wax the reason yon assigned for nU going into the transaction ' A. As far as Mr. Riopel was concerned. of Raihvlvi T 'I *"■■" r ^'T^^ T^'' proceedings and evidence before the Select Committee follows ^•^''^«'-'^P^« -^"'l Harbours of the Senate, and say if you did not again speak as _ " Q. In your negotiations with Mr. Mercier, with respect to your taking over this work " to voTtif Sr" TV'Z "'"' '" '''' '''""' ""^ ^•^ '^''''- "^'^^ *hey satisfactory to you-the $400,(X)0 which Mr. Armstrong, of London, proposed-did you and the Quebec ' accIiToT' r^'"' ''"'^"-.^r^:"" *'^^ P^"^""'' undertaking of yours broken off on account of any difference with the Government of Quebec ?" " moftt:7rlnr' ^i"""''-" °f ^'"^'^"''.'^ ^^'- «'"?«• '"^^ »»t agree that he had arranged with me for $l7o,00(). and insiste I on getting better terms, and I woul.l not give it to him." Q. That was your evidence ? A. Yes, Sir. fnr K^' I^"'"' '^ ^*'"'' ^''^^'"'^ ^'^°™ '^^ ^"''^^^ Committee you assigned no other reason lor breakmg off negotiations than because you could not agree with Mr Riopel ' A. That is all. Sir. Q Now, will you turn to page 93 and say if in the same deposition, when speaking of the interview that you had with Mr. Riopel at the St. Louis Hotel, as mentioned above, you were not asked the following questions and answered as follows : rr^J'?' f"^ *w! t!!*^ ?u *^''! interview did you not forcibly say that you wonld.have nothing more to do with the thing ? j . x ig " A. We had some sharp words. " Q. Did you not say you would be damned if you had anything to do with the concern ? " A. I may have said so." That rvi were getting $100,000 more than A. That is wliat Mr. Thorn told me , Q. When ? Q. H. .,1.1 ,,„. ,h.j, „„, ^^„j„^ ,,^„^^,^ ___^^__ ^^^__ ^__^ ^ A. Yes. Q- And you made up the estimates in pencil aft^r f h. « A. Yes you will see it in the book • Tnd ,' . '''* '^"^ ^^^" ^""^" i" i°k Q. What obligation was there yCH: Zlt T^''' '''' ^" "^^ ^-^• A. We would have to run it and IZl , ^ ''"'' '"" '''*^ ™'^^- With the Temiscouata Head thlTJuii^lrtllrrct^^^^ Hon H. Mercier I have the dates, 50r By Mr. Beique :— A. No, Sir. do y?a ^rnlTth^Mflf ''"'"'?; "''^ "'^^'^'^^'^ ^^""^ *^' *h« ^-'---t House, ao J ou rem. inber that Mr Desmarais the member for St. Hyacinthe was present '> A. I ,io not know. There were several in the room. ^ ' Q. You knew Mr. Desmarais at the time ? A. That was the member who acted as solicitor for x\fr. Macfarlane ? Q. You knew him ? A. Yes. principally ^^^ conversation about that road was with Mr Pacaud Q. You have discu.ssed that matter with Mr. Desmarais' 1 ,4h"ve',m"°' ""■ "■" ' ""' '«" ■■ '"'«'"'"■ •» '■■'' ™ >"-"•" "" Mr. M»cfa„„., And further the deponent saith not. THE HONORABLE HONORE MERCIER, Prime Minister of the Province of Quebec bemg duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say :- ' B;/ the Honourable Mr. Justice Jetti :— Q. From the evidence and documents already before us. we understan.l that before your departure for Europe you had certain conferences either with Mr. M^dla L wUh other persons respecting the reorganization of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company A, Yes Your Hor'iur. Q. A proposal from Mr. Macdonald was before you ? comf bel"; ur.'°'""' ''' ''" ""'' '"'■"'' ™^ ''P"^*""-" ' ^'^""°* -y "-t it had yet befor^e y'^rXlX'?"' '" ""' ""^*^'^- ""^ '""^'^ '^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^ ^° '^^ P-PO-1 A. The correspondence would perhaps better show what was the real situation of Mr Macdonald s proposal, than my own judgment, and if you allow me I will rea^ the co^'rl^: dence. On the 15 h November, 1890. 1 received from Mr. Macdonald, who ha. b en 1 Z I LT rV r ?'°'''"? ''""• ^^'"^ ^ ^^'^'^^''^'^^ •"*« F^«"°h. I have the o^igTnal I ha^e had the Enghsh version written in type writer, so that I can give both vezSbns tothe M wk ':M H||j|i B||i :.^:li 504 Hon M Mmner ^^^ * """"' ^"' -'*"" -*■• '—-...« F„,.,_,„ ^.,, Hon. H. Mkrcier, Qi^Euuc, November lotli IS'JO. Quefiec, Dear Sir. and l,av.. •■ u, „„„,,,,,„, ^,.^.^^,^^. ,/J "^^^^^^ of h P '''' '"^•^«''«-'-' the matter LJ7 ': ""'^'"^' ""•«n«'>">e,.t« for ohtai,,i,^ / ,^1 ^ ?' "'/r"-^: "•'"' ""^ contractors with and or tl.e payment of all local liabilities r.tldir '"■"""^^ '"'^^•'■«'« ''" *»'« ^oad an, I have a'«u made careful ,„ .onal examint 1„ r ? '"'"^.'""^' ""'' '^'^' contractors ; Meta,,e"''« «»ch ment wnh the company and the ^ontrac.tosLt vl T'^'^'''^'' ^^ the proposed settle- complet.on of the road without delay and tre'lLS '" ^^^'^"te the construction and nected w.th it ; but in order to do ao\ find t /Is Ck '"'^'"^ ''^'" "'^^"'''^^ ^«"- the Provmce of Quebec .hould be given to the pn/ ^ necessary that lunher aid from done and the settlement of the exS^M^^^^^^^^^ ''' ^.^^ -«t of the wor. to b" V dmg Of the requisite rolling stock and equ nmrnrf T' "' "'" ^^terprize and the pro- about«19,()00pormileforthe40mirs vXTh ,. ^/""'' ^"' entail an expense S" expensive .tee) bridges with very™ iv ptl a. , I '"""'""«^ '^' construction of sever^ safsfactory road. The completion o^eS^i T^T f '^' ^'^ ^«-"'-' '« "aZ a of about $70,000. ""^ *^^ '"'''"« '''''"ady built will also involve an outlay As the result of all my investi^atinn ^f fu the enterprise if the Government ?t he JrolT.To' T'' '^ ''^'^'^^ '" -ter upon 40 miles yet to be completed, cf Sio.OOO per n ile on. .^"u ,' T'^'^ ^''' ^ «"^'«"'>- ^"r the made payable when 2.. miles of the Tj^cZ^lZ I't^' .f''^' ' "°"''' ^^^ should be in working order, and when such proxies; hZu , '^' ^^ '"''^^ ^'^^^dy built are put would satisfy your Gove, nment ot'thf olp eti Tf Zt T ''t '^"''""^"« ^'^ mL'L' the subsidy should be made payable on the co . H , ! ?'^ ^'''^' ^^^ ''cmaining half of rolling stock and equipmentUheLtSlLtir^fCoov^rrm"';^ '°"' ^'^^ ^''^"^^^ \Vith an assurance from you that ,.^," °' y°"' ^o^e""nent. favourably and recommend ParlUent to graitSraTdT'll'"" '"'^'"^*" ^^'^^ P™Po«al to complete the necessary arrangements wiC 1, !h /^' ^nterprize, I will endeavour control of the whole enterprise so as to eTawfme i "^ "I'f'' ^«-equiringtheabsoi have reason to believe that I can succeed in niTklnl^r ^ ^' '" ^"'''''"'^ '^' ^'"'k and I parties couc.rned for that nurpose. "^'"^ '^'^ "'''^'''y arrangements with all taken;-;tv:ss;/ri:rs^ti:rf^'^r action of the weather, very seli^ l^ur ' Ju be'i::? t 'T '"^"^^ '^^^^^' ''the ^:^z:t-;z:r --^ - -- - --- -ir si^;^-- Hm H. Meicier 605 Frei.ch,-a8 Exhibit vember 15th ]8!X). •f having witli you in vestJKateil the matter the contractors with interests in the road nnd the contractors ; ino of railway from Jo a careful eBtimato railway. I have also il I have made such the proposed settle- le construction and ■ local liabilities con- hat lurther aid from of the work to be erprize and the pro- entail an expense of istruction of several essential to make a o involve an outlay lared to enter upon ■e a subsidy for the Hild ask should be ready built are put uaining 1:0 miles aa ! remaining half of ad with adequate ain this proposal J, I will endeavour firing the absolute te the work and I ngementa with all mediate steps are V exposed to the nvolving a future lalJ outlay at the leting the firat 60 miles, that the rolling stock now on the road i. of a very inferior character and that a l.rge outlay will be requisite to provide adequate rolling st(,ck for that portion of the line. I have the honour to be, &c., JOHN J. MACDONALD. To that letter, I merely pave an acknowledgment of its receipt by the following letter, ■which I produce as Exhibit No 107. , Primk MiNihTKK's Office, Province of Quebec, Sir, Quebec, 17th November, 1890. .>,. I ^!T ^^.«.^""°"'- t".^°knowledge receipt of yo.u- letter of the 15th instant, respecting he Ba.e des Chaleurs Railway Company, and to inform you that I shall immediate^- take it intoconsideration. "' I have the honour to be, Yours very faithfully, HONORE MERCIER. John J. Macdonald, Esq., Quebec. •.*'?^''^'^*^^'^''''"*"'^^"''''"^''■• ^^"^^ '•emained thus for sometime. I sub- mitted Mr. Macdonald 8 proposal to the council of ministers, and the result of our delibera- lons was sub-section 0) of section 1, of chapter 88 of the Act 54 Victoria, that is the resolu- Z^^J^:^:^'"''^^'''''''''^-'^ -- ^^'- «- '^e'-- -ming to that, Ontheotlf of December, Mr. Hector Cameron, Queen's Counsel, of Toronto, and Mr, Macdonald s solicitor .ent me the letter which I province, in English and French, a Exhibi No. 108-the translation made by me or under my direction. Hon. Mb. Mekcier, ^''''''' ^'^ December. 1890. Quebec. Re Baie des Chaleurs Railway. Sir, ban-.^r'fo ;''" r'?"tt' ^"^ ™^. "'*'"*'' ^^'''''- ^••'"^trong & Co., of London, England. banKei.. to investigate the position of this enterprise and to negotiate with he parties nt rested in it, with a view to arrange and reconcile all the conflicting interests fn and T' hI t ' "" ^T^ ''^ "^^^ '"'^"^^ ''''■'>'''' ->• ''-^ '^"-t'^n to the matter My c lonts were prepared to purcha.se the bonds of the company advancing the amount required to obtain the guarantee of interest for ten years from the ftovince ofCbeHnd to advance also whatever funds were required to settle with all existing interests on "he 506 Hon. H Mercier I have myself negotiated wifV, ,1, a: "''^' *° Paspebiac. year« „n , .^ operating the road after it3 comn eH / responsibility we would have I have the honour to be Sir Your obedient servant I «C.. e .he French .„„.,..,„„ .. tl^^Zm' '™' ' ""'™'='' "■ ^""".X « f-Ho... 'if*l Wf Hon. H. Mercier ?li8h as fullows. 507 Prime Minister's Office. Province of Quebec. Sir, Quebec, 9th December, 1890. I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of vour letter nf t1i« <^*\. n„ u respecting the Baie des Chaleurs RaLay Company mstant. I have the honour to be, Yonra faithfully, HONORS MERCIER. Hector Cameron, Esq., Quebec. '^ W^\ ^'ullZnawTr"'""''"" "'''^'.'^'- ^'""^^«" ^"^ *^^- Macdonald, Ito said him = could undertake the wo^ U/nt" id You sl^erk of^'o 7 "f- ''"' "^"'"^^"" ^« miles " I said ■ " If fill mil«= o. ""^ ''"^ ; . You spenk of 60 miles, it is not 60 miles, it is 80 80 miles » " Thin n f . T '"^'f .°"^> f '« ^" ''™>- °f "^e employees as I am au horized ^f^e hough^/sT de^oo^ir iTTr '" T *^ '^ ^ ^"-"bsidy." He seemed a. old subsidv T /„;T "r*"^« "f '/-that It was all we gave and that would do away with the .«,„«„„ .,„e. „„. ,„, , .He „,^ .»M;l";tf 2tr.:r ;;t:L:'z™ „ 111"; 1 '• I. 508 Hon: H. Mercter the old subsidies Rranted, remain cninted " R„f t understand, and I did not again'j e Mr Mitral. T"''*^ ^""'^" ^° ™'^'''' ^^"^ this, for sometime. Macdonald (to the b, st of my knowledge) after n..c:^^;;u:ri.i:r^fi!:;;::- :;S';^ f ^^ December, I bad seen him in the book which he produced this n^^.!rnrri?^^^^^ "" '"''' ^'^' ^ ^x^^^^e- •"" f'gures v.-ry well, and at the time T aTd -^ But ^ . ' ^"""^ ^'"' ^ ''^'"^'"ber the chief ble to .beam . ,f granting you Zh V t „" . T ^^'^'^tes are exorbitant. It is impossi- that is for one ^LlTZl:J:lZt:^''■^^^^^^ the subLv We are prepared to make f rth Lrr fie" IfT " "'.'""^ °^' '"^^ ^'^"''^ ••«'^^' l>'gh as those you mention in those etTmaS'' t'lT.' "'"-t"" ^"^^^'"'^ "^ «g»^-« «° that it requires sixty and some thousanrio hrs to 1^ J"" '' ^'''''' ''' '''■"'^'''' >'«" ^'^'^ I an, not a railway „.an, but from"l„ ^^ ^' ^^-oad; well, exaggerate your estimates so as to get a ireatdeaf^^^ you are wrong, or you greatly »8 my duty to object to it " ^ ^^^ ^''™ "«• ^' '« ^'^arly your riglit, but it that Mr. Cameron, a man so d sSiited a" hi i T r'""*^ "'^ ^ ^'^""^^ P^^^"'-^ that importance for Mr. Macdonal5 did „ot ^^l. "? ""^'^'^"^^ '"'^ transaction of Province of Quebec passed Ia!t session He mff T'"'"""''''*^"" °*' ^^^ «^^'"'« «'• ^he languages; he must havu expkined to hi«^H-^ '^ ''' ''^^ '* ' '^ '" P"^"«'^^^' *» l>"th from Mr. Cameron the letter whch I prol'^^ °? '^.^ ^'^ °*" ^^b'^'^^^' I received 110. ^'''''^ ^ produce-always m both languages -as Exhibit No My dear Mr. Mercier, The Windsor, Montreal, 7th Feby., 1891. n.at^:aXtpoL^"'^^^^^^^^ from your Government that you w 1 arrfnt th" , '. ^"""r " ^' '"^°'^'^« ^'^ ^'""^-"ce «10,000 per mile on the road to Paspebiac and tht ''^!.° "^" ^^ ^^""''^ ^e ensured of the Quebec charter by Dominion irwith ^ T' ^°"ld acquiesce in the confirmation which we require. This being rufed Id M™'"*' "^ '" '^' ^°"^>"g PO^ycr, &c., will undertake the businessTnd cr;Se the wo^ ''"' ^^"^^"^'"^ *« «" P^P^-'- we wou,dr.;:;:s!cJi;;fl;^:rr;x^^"^'^^^^''^^«^^°"^- to-nighrt.'cZal?:?;t ^n Q^e^roT 7 ^- ^- ^- ^ -- ^o - Toronto time is in Ottawa where a letter ^r^Xl^^'^^Sm. ""'"' ""' '^"" '" *^^ ™-"- Yours very truly, Hon. Mr. Meroier, Montreal. HECTOR CAMERON. letter whieh I pr„5„co » Ertibit Wo lU. "■"" '° "'' '^»""'"'°- «"" " 'l>e Hon. H. Mercier 509 GOVKKNMENT Oi'FICK. Province of Quebec. ^, 7th Feby., 1891. )usines8 principles and 'OR CAMERON. 76, St. Gabriel Street, MoNTKEAi., 12th February, 1891. Dear Sir, In reply to your letter of the 7th instant, I regret to inform you that our Government can do noth>ng iurther for the Baie des Chaleurs Railway. Hector Cameron, Esq., Toronto. Yours faithfully, (Signed) HONOR^ MERCIER. To the be. of my recollection, I heard no more of the matter until tbeeveofmy departure for New York, on my way to Europe, that ,s to say until the 12(h of March I may be m,8t.aken, and m the cross-que.iions which will be put to me, if I an. reminded of some facts which nnght refresh my n.omory, I will be very glad ; but I have consulted my notes, I have consulted my diary to sco what were the interviews I had had, and I do nut remember havmg met any person who spoke to me about this matter up to that time. On the 12th March. 1891, at Montreal, I received in the evening at niv house a visit fm,,. the Honourable Rodolphe Lallammo, and Mr. James Co, .per. I am'told tLtlS. T,^ m ^ tr; .T fT ' ' V" "«'f :'"<^"'be'-. However a conversation took place especiX between Mr. Laflammeand myself, ,n presence ol that gentleman or of these gentlemen The conversation W..S very short, Mr. Laflamme said : - You a:e leaving, and the fitie des Chaleurs Radway matter .s not settled." said to him : " Iregret it immensely and tothebest 'n v remembrance, I told him that I had always hoped that Mr. Macdonald, who is a verv re- sponsib e contractor, would hav-e taken up that enterprize, that he had given full satisfaction the Government. I say that I believe I said that ; I could not swear ft positively, but tha IS the recollection which I have ; ho gave complete satisfaction to the Governm^it in the cons ruction ol the Temiscouata Railway ; he did the work in a very satisfactorv manner or ad concerned ; I am told that he is a very responsible contractor, and he seems to be an honest man. And i however I did not say so then, I said so on other occasions and that 18 the opinion that I have respecting hi,,. ^i^««ioiih, anu tnat Then Mn Laflamme asked me several questions. Amongst others he said : " Is such a subsidy still due IS it exigible, is it to be earned, and if the works are done, the sv. dicate the company or the persons will they reach such a figure ? " Ah-I said : " M . Lafl.am n e you understand tha. it is not when Ijust about to leave for Europe that my mind wiH be ree enough examine all those matters ; ,his is my last evening with my family ; Th o e you will understand. But this is what I propose to you :-I am not in a pos Ln to rns^e these questions. Be good uiough to put them in writing, and if you send mo the let"Ir in time, so that I may study the question before leaving, I will certainly giv^ you an answer -<1 510 Hoti. H. Mercier Now, you will have an excpllpnf nr.,, * • ~^''^^==================== rp, „ . i -t'^~w if \y,l " '"".^''r ^^ • ' "^ ' ''S'"" mentioned his name orv srn-eral Bi/ Hon. Mr. Justice Jett6 :— .yndtXrtiXr'''''"''""'"''""'''''''™'' " '"« f»™«'ion of another A. I always understood, from recollection, Umt the first timp t>i.,t T>,^ ^ e •. house when I met the Honourable Mr. Laflamme and Mr. Cooper. '' "" '* "^' Q. Mr. Armstrong's name was not mixed up with that proposal ? A. I must say that if his name had been mixed up with it thev did well nnf tn . u oi >t, as my friends knew perfectly well what were my'feelini'tS: t^t ^e"^ "' and Sr'^Sm^' '"'"'' "''•^^^^"^ --« ^--tly from Mr. Cooper A. Certainly. Q. During the journey on board the train for New York hnH M,. p„„ i i. .he »„,e .™„, occion .o .,.e„U ,„ ,-on of .hi, prop'lufi,::.'^,,!^ SoVT," °" eo.eM'";j".:iri s .tceh.!:;r'tz„*'.' LrT'"-'' '". "°-" ^^^ even that Mr. Pacand-I Pm not sure but T LTrH M L^ Lallamme. I believe i., p™p««a.h. I .ho..„eei::M;:iririr,.7.r„r,?,;itr,.'^^^^^ Mtfi 512 Hon. H. Mercier ifldidnotsay more, but it was Hl)oiit that It U nnf ,.f .„, i ■ spokon of Mr. M.c.bnal.i. Well,Tfr„cre iot di!l ?""-'l'«' I l-a.l „„ that occasion memory ,» Mr. PacauJ, I would ." th". ', .?■, SZo" ' T "'"," '"■° '""' "«" » """I mentioned Mr. Macdonald's n«me on tli.toee. »il r .. ' ""' »"'•">''«' «' "H having had not, at t„„. time, any intere,, in tnZZ^it ^3. '2 1'' "'I'T '' "'"T '" "■"' ' *„.... ,..d „ee„ ™.„d ... ..e .tatntt:^ i;:.:?^"" ^ ^ r/l- ^ 7S .4;::d;i:;*:^sz^:^:-z -;:.;.^^ .e «. Q. Were there any other conlerences ? few change, and we alter;dsre^;Lti'^^^r '"'T'^' ^'^^^ ^-^ ^ those ar.nind me. " Now, gentlemen b.win 1 , , . ^^^^' "^^^ ^nn^^hed, I s.tid to one who speaks of busine^Hot Sib" "^^^ °*'i'- The first remain quietly with my family. I dc, , "t eve\hat I w"^^/"," ^'^ ''''" ' "'^^"^^ ^« bus..ss^after that, in n.et.Ithink I had peae.^^ L ^^^^^Z:^.Z^Z:i:^ Q. Betore the circumstance which you mentione,! 1^,1 v .„ • <'"S'^06'«e. Pacaud. respecting the negot.ations with Mr MacdSd "' ' ' '"'"'^'"" *° '"^^' ^^^• A. I believe Mr. Paoaud .spoke to mo a couple of times Q. He was interested in the success of Mr. Macdonald's enterprise ' known that Mr. Macdonald had Ltd him o rsoW'w "'u-T'T "'^^"^"^'' "^ " ^^'« -«" who is the most surprised just n.nv L n Zbl Af " P ^"^^"^'^°'y, ''"°^"- ^ow the man .vhich I have just coLmuiated L th tit ion ^1^ !"^ knowledge of that 1. tter nicated only to my colleagues a„wo genUe- should be no douLt in Your Soiiourrmindror inT ^'"^T'^r' ' ^"""* ^''^^ '''^' '^ere everon any occasion gave me ^^^Xlr:^ Sl^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^ Hon. H. Mercier 518 tell h™ to avoid ,ryin, to put lu.Jlf like 'tha^;^ Mw i ^^^^^^ the Government and the Government, that I did not like 'tlLd. ? ""''' '"''^ whatever may be said, I held a good deal to the respecUb litvtd .. T "T""''' """^ mont. and I did not like that it should bo thouXTnTtt ^ and reputation of the Govern- profit by the occasion to make mon^.^^^t hL V h ^i rthTMrr^'l'T"/^'^ "°"'^ outside this occasion; I have no facts beforp m/n f , , ,! ''°''"'' ^"''^ ™^^e any, in fact, hearing rumours and "aiing th attack n T '^\'"! '' '^''^^'^ *h'*'' ^ul request to him which I have just stated " ^'P''"' ^ *^°"^'^* °^ "^"^^ing that Q. Had not this Mr. Cooper, on whoso Iiohnlf Mi. t„h ^ Who >,.J.h, interview witK ^o,,', . CiC^l^u l"'' idtrZJ '"'"'" """ '""■"■ "" A. lea, Your Honour. i^v • ^.^ Q. Do you remember the amount of that claim. Had you any knowledge of it at the ther^r miSlg^^rSSl^it St • ;:tl^ "^-^^ or twenty-two thousand dollars : I arspeaSTrom nTor^n ''^'%T'^' '* ^^^""t twenty-one to .assist my memory at the moment ^ ""°''^' ^ ^ '^^"^ ^"^^^"g before me Q. Did he adopt any measures with the Governmonf in «on.„„ *v, or to obtain the intervention of the Governurent so ^hat f h« ? ^' P"^""""* "^'^^* ^''^i'" A. Yes. Mr. Lafiamme had writfen l^e „ t. ^ Itt S^^tt' '° '"' " and I replied accordingly. I should have thp iL? ^ v ^ '^^ summer of 1890 Honours wish it, I mighf Lve it lookedtr and prolt' iT " "^ °*"'^' '^"^^^ ^^' Y^'^' Q. Do you not remember the substance of your reply or nearly so' Possibly. And that it was desired AhatTLaZnmels^^^^^^ ^'^ *^° '^"''^^ ^'^«" ' arrangements which were being made incoLouor. nffr^^^^7^^ '^'^^"'«'' '" ^^e the statute p.»ssed in 1890. these genUe^^rS h^e a r^ *'r?'- '' ''^ ««"«« ^^^^ "^ like that. I replied yes, and that I though" Z^thelZj^T" 1^'?^ """'"^ ' ^^-^^'hing recollection of it. Your Honour, but I would Ife to see iuv lei' ' T '^ ' '''' "^^ P0su:ve^y as to the terms, but that is certainly Ih^s^nse-S trfeuS ^^^^''^^ ^pot:io!ii;:^^r^rt:;m^^^^^^^ upon the condition of affairs respecting that crparvV ''^°''' '° *^^ Government A. Yes, Your Honour. If you wish it T win foii ., that matter. We came to power in rhe w nter of 1887 'w '" ' "'' ^°'^^' '^" ^'^^^ ^"^^^s to construction of that road had been stop;ed in tShT^mnM? r""' "'"™"' ''''' ^^« the Honourable Theodore Robitaille, eSeutenant Govf nn ' f m' 'o'"''"''^ "^ '«"«^ f™'" the condition of the company. ^'eutenant Governor of the Province, setting forth thatmre^tt^gefr'^'^^'^"^^ " ''^ '^''^ ^-^ ««-> to which department on t^aE^ri:i^:^:(;^rr rs^^^ ^j-^-^ - -« tent. ... Konjtaille, signed by xMr. Game au him- 33 514 Hon. H Mercier " The company hopes, Sir, that you will tnke into vnnr ■ exceptional importance of the Baie desChiles «„!,"! ^ °"' r."""' ^""^'^''^tion the liberally encourage tlie enterprise whose nm^ I i ^' 'V* ^'°"^" ^^^'err.ment will difficulties met with." whose progress is ,.ow arrested, owing to the financial That was on the twejitv-eiirhth nf ifoV -i.',. ,., • j -. replied on the fifteenth as tbilows ^ "'"'''"^ '* °"'^ *^" ^'^^ ^'«h*h o*' "^""e. We THE Honourable Theodore RoBmii..E, ^"^"''' ^^'^' •^""'' ^^^^• ««««<(... PrenderU of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, Quebec, ^ir, the importance of the construction of the B^ifl Chal ul^ ^^"'"'ru "'" "^^''''^^'^ and colonization sense; it regrets frlmtundpr LIT f Railway, both in a business Legislature to g^ant any adSl'^^b't t^v^rcrprnr '' """°' "°°"™^"'' '^ *« As for the anticipated payment of thirty-five cents per acre of l.n,! ^k- u pany will, according to the terras of the law have IZTIZ ! ^""""^ .^^'^^ your com- could not be made unless the statute should be am S t^ w iT'"' T"" P"^'"'^"* ment does not consider it to be its duty to reoomr^ , * ^^^''^' ''^"^ ^^"^ ««^-ern- lature, at Iea.t for the present ' recommend such an amendment to the Legi«la- I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) p. GARNEAU,- CommisHioner. That was during the summer of 1888. As Yonr Hnnn,,™ » for the doubling up but for the anticipated paymrtl' "en s for' "' TZ "^^'^ "°' ""'^^ that are granted as subsidies may be converSd S m^ evtt' .? "T ' "'' '"''■ '^^ ^"'"^^ works are performed by sections of ten ml7.md "Z the 1 .f '' '" P^^Portion as the 35 cents are paid when the lands granted to tCLmrnarr^H''^^ ''"^T' ^""^ ^^'^""d the two conditions. It does not suffice that thev he ToSu ^""^ ^"""^ ^'''- '^^'^'^ ^'^ should have drawn the second accents so ttt Mr R 'hV',?'°''''.T'^"' the Government up which I have explained wisCd S ihe an ilfn . H '' '° '''^^'''"" *° "'^ ^^^"^^""g replied that that cotfid not l7one oXtt le tS^^^^^^ 2^"* n '\' '"' '' ''^''- ^' not at the time disposed to have thar^r^aL! thrchaS: t' tvry^ b^^ Hon. 11. Mercier 516 znade We were then in the session of 1888, a session ,hat ended on the 12th July 1888 ani after hav.ng „,et Mr. Riopel and «o„.e others interested, I do not know even het er' I .d not mee Mr Rohuaille at the time, but in any case I received a lot ofpet t ol o" c,t,zens-wh.eh I have here- a. well as ..om mayors, as Iron, wardens and e'. a, d oZ come to answer, as shortlv as I can tL n„„ t "''7 ,\- / """ ^"""^^ ^S'""- ^ ""W Mr.i.n.e.ier.l',e.withmy^::^.t^:t;-;:;^^^^^^^ The iacti8,tLt while par^ac^?: mini !":'■;„ ' T "'" "''^" ^'^ '^^'^""^ ^'-^S-- ospecially in the moidng, t U^l^^ rT:;r.S^:.;:^r;i!tlr :;:^f '^ ^^"' had furnisheJ their land' uZj^rZnZ'ZtT " ''' ^''^'-".-ul farmer, who D..y, whose claims for land leoT^ST^^^^^^^^^^^ ou.y .y the arhitr.ors in ^S l^^Uhril^rr-hS^/ S^ S^XT^- .et them paid. I tL the litt^ol' end „? ort CeT whX^ ^t"" ''^ "' ^^ ^^ Mr. Eiopel : " Why do you not pay those poo S ovvs ' HeTa^d '1 3 < "'; T' ' "'''^'^ appeal even to England." I said. " You know vprv w! /. 7.! • ' '^''''''^*^'* '° ^o into ha^.been robbed.ihe arbitrators' aTZi is" o?be;^." Sr™;^^;^-" ^ea.id : "' We as I am concerned. " We yot rather warm .Inrin; f u r ^''*' question, as far Riopel, ^ou will pay these '^yZlZ^riZn^^^^^^^^^ 'r' ' " ^^• engineer will make a report authorizin,r ',//"! ^^'^^'^'^P" ^o Quebec; the Government and I will stop that suSy 1 iZa^ vTh '^"'y Tr P°^''"" °*" ^^e subsidy, «eH,e all these Lad debt t^ruse t\ IlChTutust^o mrkeT' '''''''; ^°" "^^^ for the work or for their la.ids." My remarlL had tlZ! r . r u ^'' P'^^^'*' ^^'* ^''^^' .ith them almost trium;:^in£:^—-trSrr^ '''' ^^^ opportunity of paying sub^idiTstjL^'omTauy^^^^^^^ - -"-fered the We always had reports stating that so much work ml beeT d^n Z'''!''''^ advancing, then we named Mr. Charles Langelier. who wis Ln" r^l j mer:ber t'"' T """"^^ ' make an enquiry on the spot. Our decision was specially I mTv^^' , ^l ''T" ^'"^ a sort of strike that took place at Mari,i Th« JTl '^L • ^ **^' ^'^'^'^S^f' about by of the railway. They took uTsle t ' " ^1 ^"^'l'"''"'"" ' ^'^^'"^ l^^^" P'^'^. took possession ing to the expression used by ome wS. Zhe : .'t^v ?lt.'""'"""^'^^'°"' '^"'^ '^--^■ was they could not run as the line wal intl. nn/^ . Z f ^^ ^"^'"^ prisoner." The fact *-."4" ^ Hon. H. Mercier Upon the rc'iiort made to iw by Mr Charlp^ I .,r. rni;^.. .1 eighteen lu,ndn.dan,l ninety (18iK)) wenar, anri 1 A '" twenty-flr.t of]y.,rch eight (108,, enu.owering ChXSnoS^^ and with the r.oiutiot^.r thj; H))//. " Hint ; _ 1 . ' *^ *> ""'• seeing the u..e;.y of .he ea::'r;itS:;;S:^I^^';;;S^ the Government adopt practical means to p,.y the wa J of th! n ? ''"'"■"' '^^^ 8ectionK,oftheBaiedesChMleur«Kailwav t. nJfr. ^u"""' ''''° ^'"'^^'^' «" good faith and are not paid, as we 1 as tri' a.^l Ml ^'V" ''^'' '"'" '^'''' P'"^"'^« *" such section of railw,. y, a ^a^ .the ori ul , " "^ '^\]-->>om who worked on work d.,ne and of mateHals on th t^^^U^iiuin 7 \' "'' ""' '"^ ^"^"^ °^ ^^^ to be deducted f.on. the subsidies t:'btorrertt e ;::: .ny ^ i no case was considered urcent mi nntif.,. i,,,i I • ,' »B lohov,, : ■ """" '"■«»«"in •, 01 ti.e ,icl »3 Vicl., Chop. lOI, which reads " The Lieuteuaiit-Uovernor in CoiiiiRii shnli 1.,. ^..n. ■ . . subsidy under the Act 45 Victoria, chap er 23 ^ L,' T'!, ^ ~"'^"' °' '^' "^"S^""' desChaleurs Railway Company as sp'edlll^".r , altrTcV^lSyM ^" ^'f ^''^ 91, section 12,-that is the doubling up of the s,.b,i Iv ! . "''''™' ''•''^''^^^ the wages due to workmen the amo nU h . **' .^^'^'y-accorduig to circumstances, "A"' of the said r.i.way, the amoZto , iTr"'", '"• ' '^'"' '°^ «^'^'-» against the said company, and to othe.s Iv g tl .fJa; mrT' T-T''^'"' "^'"'"^ as Pi.vil.ged, infp.op. rtion to the an.ount of work p 211 on he ' '""''"^'^ estabhshed.by the special report of th,- Governn.cnt "^i^.^ "t oul " ''" '' not be strictly entitled to claim the same a. fully earner the wh J^f n T^"""'' ""'^ resolution respect ng this matter adooted n^«,i,J ,,^' '""; ^<^"'e "' accordance with a on the fifth diy of March iS and S^^^^^^^^ 'f "'^ ^"S^'^tive Assembly twenty thousand dollars." ^ ^ "'" '"''' '^'"'^""^ ^°«« '^"^ '^^''eed the sum of To these twenty thousand dollars (9:9n()i)n\ r.,u; u Chrys<.t6meLangelier,accordi..gto tL^eprit L^^^^^^^^ 'T' P"' '^'' "^^ ^'•• sand dollars (*8,0„0) under Order in Counc7N 6(i da^K"? ' ? ^^t'" ^'«'* *^«"- eighteen hundred and eighty-nine (1889) and t hi. i i^v. .! *^.«°ty-«fth of .November dollars came from : ^ ^' ^^ '^"' '' ^^"''^ *h^«« «'ght thousand and some Should reserve, when we shoufd be tlrst c.Uedtpol" Io\XT^;'^Z "^'Z Hon H. Merrier 61T • I produce a copy of twenty-first of A.aicli mherono hundred and niance with tlie report ention in a moment, of the twenty-first of oh, having submitled lie unpaid worlvmen, the following resolu- ;isiative Assembly for iiig thereto. :— " Tha House desires that Jns wlio workeil on sold their produce in 3ns who worked on t of the value of the overnment engineer, luse voted it without lent to embody that lap. 101, which reads —out of the origimi] rranted to „he Baie 52 Victoria, chapter to circumstances, t.iken for section g privileged claims Q fairly considered id section " A?' as I the company may accordance with a ^islative Assembly exceed the sum of part paid by Mr. added eight thou" fifth of x'j^ovember housand and some* and eighty-eighty , we thought we' naent under that douhlmg up, as the law stated when the conditions whici, the Lieutenant Governor in Cuunc.l may be pleased to f,x to .,rder that there should remain in our hands ei,ht thousand dollars (I8,(X)0) out of the first sum that came due to pay The workmen farmers and other persons having claims wh.ch might be equally considered a* prn.^ged. We knew very well, Your Honours, that a farmer who supplied tics, ^ workman who gives his wages has not a claim that can be considered as privileged in the eye o the law, but we put in the word "equitably," as we considered that work, as weP as wooden ties and other materials necessary for the construction should be considered by the Government, as equitably privileged, as without that the construction would not have been carried on. fh,., we had therefore reserved these eiglit thousand dollars ($8 000) and I asked Mr Moreau the other day to explain how the operation was done ; he se me the letter ;^"-n;'teenth October eighte<.i hundred and ninety one (mi), wh oh I produce as Exhlbl No 117, and which gives a cumpl.te account of the use made of these eight thousand dollars ($8,000). In place of paying .wenty thousand dollars ($20,000) whch we were authorized to pay by the resolutions and the statute which I had the honor to read just now, we find hat we have paid twenty-eight thousand dollars ($28,000), inchiding these eight thousand dollars in question. ;> «"iii»iinj, mese By Hon. Mr. Juntice JetU :— Q. That was to be taken out of the subsidy granted to the company ' A. Certainly, Your Honours; it was kept out of the first subsidy earned after the conversion authorized by what I have just now read. "uer me Here is Mr. Moreau's letter : DEPART.MENT OF PuBLIC WoRKS, Railway Office, Quebec, 19th October, 1891. Memorandum In re the Baie des Chaleurs Railway At the request of the Honourable the Oommissioner, I forward to the Honourable the Prime Minister the following information respecting the 18,000 retained in T Treasury according to the Order m Council No, 4.-59 of the 17th of July. ]88<^. until the company had furnished proof that the privileged claims of workmen, those who f rni^hed material- T.:l^ZT'rT"' ^"1°"'^ "''"^^ "'"^''^ "'^""y - '" p-t built had "e": Thee $8,000 so retamed were subsequently paid by the Treasurer to the company under he terms of the Order in Council No. 22 of the 12th of . January, 1889. as the company hS then furnished sufficient proof that payment had been made of the privileged cSs th^ due upon the first forty miles of the road between Metapedia and PnsbSa ^s t^ retained to cover certain claims still outstanding. These $500 are inc^ided in he $8 5^^ which remained payable to the company under the terms of the Order in Council No 606 of ^5th November, 1889 ; which sum of $o8,,46 was in conformity with the latter Or^eHn Council placed a he disposal of Mr. .J. C. Langelier. special commissioner to pa tl^e privileged debts still due upon this railway. Mr. Langelier employed these $^8^46 in th! pa>^ent of the privileged debts then due upon secticfns G and H Jess tlie cosf '^f th^ en! (Signed) E. MOREAU, Director of Railways, 1 hH^BI Hun. H. Mtrcier I proc'iicc tin; Onlci- in Council Vn ir>o ,>p u and ninety (1891.) ; I «aw people who m- h a i' ? j, '' "'^^V'""'"'"- "' «i'hteen hnn,lr«l greater part <..■thenU.^d,, can pHiLnr^^^^ ?'' "" ^h'^^'' ^''"'»«- - the dential, there is general .atistacL; Now^^™ ;;"'\'"'°^"^ ^ have, otHdal or confi- well r.ai.l, the land, which wore taken frtlerawa- h'ver' " T" '' •'' ^^■"'•''"'^" "« general «ati«laction in that respect at lenst^^ have been paid lor; m fine there i. Q. Were not the claims, whose p\i-it«.nc.» at,, nu i , the clain.s of farmers and of tho«o wT^d .S^^'ff ^.^^^^ ""." 'o ascertain, only against the con.pany in the locality" '" ^^^ ''""'P^ny-i" fact all the claims had;'orkS/^'" "'" -^-^''^^"-ity; there were workn.on from other localities who of whatever natnre they might be 7 ^' "''' "=''""'« ''g^'"«* the company A. In the Order in Conncil apprintinL' Mr Pl.nrUo t menceby.tati„«:Thatdi(ficulti8hav^aHs^^^^ between the company of that name and it^.-onrrlt '" ^"'" "^'^ ^^^'^'^'^^'^ R'^i'^'ay latter and the workmen and thosrwh< f„ iJe C'^/i^^" "^^"^ ^ '-^ween the way ; and that there ha« been a strike amorth« L construction of that rail- owing to the non-payment of theirtges ^ ar eT t'^u;:;''^ 't.'^' "'"*' ^""'^'^^"-^ clanns outstanding against the company or against the - " '';''''"°" '*'"'•" '^''^ "f^^^'' done, materials and supplies, salarv etc '^'""'' ""^ contractors for right of way. work arti2^.?z"s;:;:S,jr;;±:d^:::;r^^^^^ ~ds that nnder be held to .ascertain : "'"' '" '^' ^''-ovu.ceof Quebe,., 1888, an enquiry struc^ir:;^":;;:::;:!' r"'^^'"^^^^"«--"--^^-^claims arising nom the CO. 2. All complaints already made and which slu,li h^ . i ,. hereinafter named against the said complv o jt 11 T f'"' "" ^'""--i- or constructions that may be defective, insuffici n or l^n an' to'f °" 'T ""'^' ^^"'^^ the region concerned, and that for that „nrn,.«! m IT '' '" '^'^ ^^"^'■'*' interests of city, be appointed as CommissioLr mpowZfrca^v o " h r"'"'""' '^'^°^'^'^' "^^'^■' Q. The tern,s are very .omprehenTe ' *'"'' '^''^''^' '*'« «"^"i^>'- ^'c A. The terms are very comprehensive. Q. In fact can you tell us whether Mr. Charles 1 .mcroi;». • ^• statement of all the claims that might have exhttl 2„ fT ''' '" ^'' ''"P"'*' "^ ^"'"P''^'^ those of , ergons who furnished supplies or con ractorf n . , '°'"'"'"^'' '"'='"^^'"^' «^*^" statement as to th. condition of i^lLuZ^:2TZ Z.otr '^^^^^t'^'^ ^"'"P'"^ against the sub-contractors themselves ' ^ *•""' ^^"''k^and of the claims arett;eito;t?^:!^sj:;;:;s:rs.r;;fr:s*"r^r-™--^-^er^ waa the n uure of all these dain. witho"^ ""rfvil^g ;! '"' ' '''"''* "''' '^''^ *^ «*>' ^^^at My recollection is that all these claims which conl,M ai^d that he mad. a report of them. Tha is mv reeol .-" ^ '^'"*^"'^' ''''' established, Q. Now, for the settlement of these c a „ ^Mr ChrvsTt "7 """"V '^ "^^^'^'^-^ empowered to go to the )• .1^- ■ ..i nav VhTd^e;ent cS- ™' ^^"" ""^ ^^'^^^^^^^ Hon. H. Mercier 619 ascertain, s amount out of a;y subsidy that m^be coX to the ror""' ^' '««"««"* *" P^y did in the case of the Hereford RailwTcompanT ''"' "" " Government Yours respectfully, My answer is as follows (Signed) R. LAFLAMME. Montreal, 14th June, 1890. Hon. R. Laflamme, Q. C, Montreal. Dear Sir, In answer to yours of this day concerning Messrs. Cooper, Fairman & Co.'s claim of 522 Hon. JS. Mercier «17,e09again8t the insolvent firm of H M«nFo.i..„ <• . Yours truly, (Signed) HONORS MERCIER. Prime Minister. butlyou have marked theml.d i" ow I I i. ^^"^ ^'"'^'""^^ *^ "^'^ '""' '"^ ^ePU' Q. Before vou leff w7 p^ ^ ^ " ^^'^ '^''P'^'-' ™''*^'e during last night tions on the subject of the settlj^ent "" \Z matter" '"""' ""' '^'^ ^■°" '^"^^^ '-'"- proposal and I had insisted w"h my ;iL,te?r.on 7 '"' ™^"'ioned Mr. Macdonald's geous arrangements a. possible Ten ueT. ^i/' "^"T'*^ «*' '"^^ing as advanta- the con.pIetion of the sec ion tn^TJ^. ""fT ^"^ ''""«''-"'''i°'> of the road, f.om Cascpedia to PaspdW^ rd 11; n "< ^^^'''^P^^""^ '^"^ the construction colleagues understood my^^vS^^ oT the s d.W. ' ^^ , °"'?^'"^ ■ «° '1'^* ^" "^y to couHuunicnte to them he letters w St '"'''. T''' '^''""^^ ^ '^^^ °'^«'^^'«" principal citizens and the addresses Shhad1.e. '^^'"^^f /-°^ the county f.om the -ubject. I have had extracts from these ad ,^1 l^een presented to me in 188S and 1890 on this to show how the people "f '™'" ;^^^^ ^^'-ys'iort, I might fyle them They are ^^^r^^'Z: ^^^1:^2^^^^ ^^ -« for the making'of thil 1" sion see no objec.ion I will produ e hose " fct ' l'? , T"' \ '1 ''''' '' ^^^ C^'"™*- as Exhibit Ho. 121, '''''• ^ "^'^'1 "°^ »•«*»'' them, I produce them cabi^tXoX:^:i;triSSorts;rT'^*^^^" '^^^"^-^^ ^^^^e Prime Minister ? ^ »'8tructions ^vuh Mr. Garneau who represented you as left -y'^sSe'S;:;' :;;:,r;;^br" "'?i'r '"^^ ' ^•" ^^'^ ^^- ^-'^^ -t ..ve twelfth. On the evening oTte^f'l met M? P "'m"."""' '^"•"«^" ^«-» -«- the Thon, at my house, a/l said Jesedav ,nd 1^1 H?';; ""'• '^r^''^'"'"'' «"''■ ^ ^^"^-e, Mr. that I could not leave hin, an/Sclior '"' "''"'^"'''^ ''^^ ^'^'•- «-"-» '^«'»n, .o eo™iS£Se:t ;:ur of ;:si:::^ts^i.^ -r r '''- -'^-y -y ^ r received two letter, on this su^'oTe from Hn xr p '" '' '''' ^'^''"^^^ ^ the Hon. Charles Langelier; iu,fortunlSlvl\ T L '''"''''"''"'' '^e other from occasiontoregretititis^his'on ostitis :iiffi^ '* ''^'"' '"^ •*' "-- -a. However, I have two means ofgivng the dalLl °!' '"'/" ^« ^^^'^^ «^ to date, to the Commi-sion. The m.t is a tJegram . It S ' "*" ''''' '^^«« --'- havuig co,ne from, Mr. Armstrong, telling Mr Doletth^^ communicated to n,e as of my recollection it was towards he end of P™f. f t If''"^'''*''""'^^- ^^ the best Drolet that the thing w.xs imnossible thnt l. ^ ' , ^ """ "°* ^'^ ?••««*««• I told Mr defi-ute, I would hafe b^en told of il' """ '"''''''"' *''*' '' '"^'^^ ^'^^ ^-«» anythh.g h.c^:^rS^^:S.";Sti:rSr^ -^^^^^Mr. Armstrong proposed tons. -.y gave him and which 1 would ^2:::z::i^V2J;^:-z^^^- Hon. H. Mercier 523 tors of a portion of the ^ MERCIER. Prime Minister. ;ers of the thirteenth e to me and my reply ng last night, understooil respecting I did you h-ave instruc- ich I first heard of on Dned Mr. Macdonald's )f making as advanta- truction of the road, and the construction ; so that all my ;auise I had occaj^ion e county from the 1 1888 and 1890 on this ort, I might fyle them making of this road that if the Commis- lem, I produce them he members of the represented you as that I could not have lean again after the 3 and, I believe, Mr. r. Garneau again, so to this railway any )f the Cabinet ? 1 and the other from but if there was : exact as to date. 1 state these means unicated to me as iettled. To the best recise. I told Mr. had been anything ig pr9posed to us, sons which I ver- several occasions. agam referred to the matter, asking me if I had received any news from Quebec • and on my replying in the negative, said : " I cannot however be so far mistaken.'' The i aWs told hnn. And it is not however possible that I could not be informed." ^ Hvplr™'f !r ^'' ^'■?'''' '^^ *""'"■ ^'^y- ''"^'""S '^^ f'^^'" ^° ''i"^' '-^'"l requesting him to give me a letter ho as to assist me to remember the dates. I have that letter, and it iT aU It I would not agree to meet certam distinguished French capitalists who wished to undertake certain railways in the Province of Quebec, and among others this Bale dcH Chaleu^ Rail r'-nr leTrr^rf ^'^^«\«-''«-- -d told them, what is any wryestalSed by Mr. Drolet 8 etter, that among the roads which they could succesfuUy undertake was this Baie des Chaleurs road-it was a tirm with a capital often millions-and I told Wr! thlt I nZT?nr"'f° •^r''"''""""""'*^"^^""^' ''''' ^f ^^« arrangements were not com- S bu thTit \' """" '^'?'^"^''' ' ^°"''^ ^""^""^"S^ *^^ "«^^- fi"n to attain that end , but that I was not in a position to let them know, to wait. This was in the moi have the letter. of May. I will give the dates correctly later on, as I will then Hnnl^rli P^' , ' .-"^"^^ ^''^t^'" ''etter to my memory is a letter that I wrote to the Shis 1 ttir thJ 'h ;"'f ''' "" ;'' r"''''"'^ °*" '^^•y- ^^^ -^^^^ I acknowledge receipt of his letter th«t I had just received, and which tells me that the transaction was complete • .0 that gives me an approximate date. I have not, unfortunately, kept that letter fronf Mr Charles Langeher, any more than Mr. Garneuu's; but mine i kept, as I dictated it to my stenographer, and it is a long letter touching on many points, and a. there is a passage resp-^cting this, it permits of my refreshing my memory. The letter touching upon a ot of other points I wou d not like to make it public, as it has nothing to do with this tmnsac thTwhoTe n "f Th'I'"' ''. '•''"" *'^ Commission, and if tlfe Commiss on b ie th.U the whole letter should be made public, I will submit. There is only this passage : This is the passage. 24, Rue des Capucines, Paris, 19th May. 1891. (I dated from Paris, although t he letter whs dictated on the cars ; I was travelling and I wrote my letters when I had an opportunity.) iraveiung, ana I wished to write you the other day, on receipt of your letter, but I was prevented by various ma ters which arose, one more pressing than the others ; to-day I am on the rain from Pans to Beauvais, I take advantage of the circumstance to d ctate this lett r o Clemen who will put ,t mto type this evening when I shall have the pleasure of d nh g at St^'l' with our tnend Forget (I will not read the remainder ; it was a social dinner i^was our iZt dS.) ■' "' ''°"*"'^'' ^^'^ '"' ""'•'^^' '"^ *° '^^--' -^' ^■•- ^--- - ex- settled. I depend upon what you say. but I confess to you that I do not find the new syn- dicate very strong and unless it is backed up by foreign capitalists and very etronglTbacked ■— -s j i 524 ffim. H. Mercier s r ^r ir-:^s-^::;t i::^^- - - ^ -^^ -"^-, to^,„ow exact,, are a better judge than I of the ^r:,^^^^^^^^ Of course yoj tances mentioned by you, and I depend entielv ,!.nn T^^' ^^°''' ^^ '"'''^'- col eagues a. to what should be done but InravTr Tf ^'^"'^"«" ""^ that of your unfortunate with this road that we cannot tlL'too' Zl^y^JJZT ' "' '"" '"" ^'^ IS much better than I thought; but in fine .s An ,•"?'' ^"'"^ ^^"'■^' *'>« ^^"''icate Mr. Dawes, Mr. Cooper and M . Cm thol It th/r'', ''"'f "' ''^"^ gentlemen, except hope these gentlemen will not be offended \ / '"''^ ''''"''' '"J' uneasiness. I public interest and to put my colleag fon his gua d " tw 'V° ''^' *^"- ' '^^^ ^^ ^" *^^ munication of my letter which treats of a ZJT.l ' '' ^""""•"^ "^^^ ^^^^e corn- to .he Baie des Ohaleurs matter. As Isatedldo n'^^" 'Tf \ ''''' '' '''' ""'^ ^^^^-nce unless the Commission decides to thi conSy ''""' "''' ''"^'- '" ^^ '"^^^ Public, % flbn. 3fr. Justice Baby :— Q. There is nothing else m the letter which you have just read ? A. Nothing else with respect to that. As to M. n<,r^. . , . and to my reply of which I did not keep a Zy iTwa T ' "'"' ' '^'''''''' Garneau told me that the matter was settled! H . T ' ^"'"" ""' information ; Mr. the conditions, and in mine llZl T ^^f^^^^tio". giving me details respecting congratulated him uprnL:;^^^^^^^^^^ *^^ -^"^ -« -"'e^- -d When there wassomeuestl::f'J:^^^^^^ K' -- ^^ered as satisfacto:, . my reply, of which I had no copv ZTIIT ""' ' ^'^'^ '^'- ^^''^^^^ *« ^^^w before the Cose of the inquiry Jhe doe lot 1 J." ^^^^ "^'^^^^^ ^ ^^«P« »^e will find it pleased if he found it. '^'"'^ ^*^ ^^^^^''^^^'^ '*' ^^^ I would be well Mr. llZ!:ZTr''' ^^""^ ^^- ^^*« *^" correspondence w. exchanged between A. It must have been about the same date as that of Mr. Langelier's letter. Q. About the middle of May, nearly ? By Hon. Mr. Justice JettS .•— ™. .t:;r rLr:iTe":!;'rrf " "'*"°"' '-■-"- ""— • -p^ -exact copy Of.,, „.„,:!, L':':;2;l7™'7 '",' ^"^ »°^ '« l"'« -Hy there .„ „™e .„„ec.i„„. .„ „.k, „/ iT, ,,t^^ *° ^■■""'« ^-"""y. «' whether .eu to,. „e i« „„ .„,„..„„,„.„«,„, .,:-i:;r::::z;:r;th:'r:: Hon. H. Mercier 525 that matter, as you had not seen him ; did you leave instructions with ai:y of the ministers who were with you in New York at the time of your leaving 9 A. Not at New York, Your Honour, hecause I did not see these gentlemen. After leaving the train. I went o my rooms at the Albemarle Hotel, where I put <,p my family, Mr. de Cazes, family, and having bid them good bye I went on board the steamer Q. Beiore going to the hotel, on the car when you were talking about the matter ' A. Oh ! In the car I must hAve told them generally to try and make an arrangement to secure the construction ot the road. I said. I must have, I .m sure I said it ; that I was so an.x,ous that that road should be built that I must have said that, and I got some inform- ationlromMr.RobidouxandMr.Boyer; they lold me that Mr. Dawes, whose name had been mentioned m the interview of the day before, was a very rich man, I knew thatgentle- man personally, but I did not know about his means. They also told me that Mr. Cooper was also rich. I thmk I told them to do their utmost ^to secure a satisfactory arrangement to assure the construction of the road. "»"geui -ni- Q. Then this was said before all the ministers who were present in the car ' A. That is my recollection. Q. There were no special instructions given to one rather than to another ? A. As you see, Your Honour, from that letter from Mr. Laflamme, there was no piopo- sa there were only questions; so that I could not give special instructions about a parti- cular arrangement, there was no proposal, there was only the principle favorable to the construction of the road, that is what interested me. « ^o u.c Q. Did Mr. Pacaud speak to you of this proposal from Mr. Thorn or of the new svndi- cate at the time ? "jmui A. He spoke to me about it in the car : had he spoken to me before ? I do not remem- ber, but he certainly did speak to mo in[ the car. and dosTu '^^ ^''"'"'' '^" ^°" *^'"^' '''^'" ^■°" ^^'^ generally that it was necessary to try A. It is very possible, but he certainly was not present when we were considering over the wording of the reply to be sent to Mr. Laflamme, for when the ministers came together here were several of these gentlemen who were not members of the Cabinet, and we asked them to be good enough to withdraw. Q. What Mr. Pacaud would have said on that oc-casion was .aid before all the members wfts It not I A. I believe so Your Honour. Q. He said n* bine to you privately ? A. He certainly did not speak to me in private, from the time we took the cars until we reached New York unless. I may have told him privately : " Ilearn'that Mrs. Pacaud on board, go and fetch her " but on business, no. Q. Now, at New York ? A. I did not see him excepting the next day, I believe, he was with those who came to say good bye, on board tne steamer, but just at the time the steamer was leaving. Q. Mr. Macdonald, as you stated yesterday, wrote you a letter on the fifteenth of November eighteen hundred and ninety, which is produced as Exhibit No. 106. You told us I believe, that you simply acknowledged receipt ? ' A. Yes. "' ,i f 626 Son. H. Mercier thJ/i'r:""' '-'' ^" '^^ '-''-'^^ ^^- ^« --ed no .p„ t. that letter except the.;^a:;ir:;:^::;t;:;l^„«:SLn;JSe^ ae.now,ed.™ent o^ .eeipt i3 that I replied on the date mentic..ed a.d tS,o /, '" *''" ''°°^'^ ^^^"^^ establishes not wish to contradict Mr. Macdunlld wL t '' ''"^ '""' ^ ^» "^her cases. I do led,.nent of rece.pt, but inS sen^ itt^hi™ t 'ZJ^^ ""'' '^'^ ^^^^^^ "- -^-w- By Hon. M. Justice Bi.oy .•— Q. Is that letter entered in the letter book ' whic^"l'J::S';i::;;:;f;^[,^;^- a" -y ^-feial correspondence, and that founds the record of that time. If vcnrwi lal ''^r^ -'^'"^ "^^ P"^''^^'^ ^^^^'^^ary Ccnmission, M. Drolet'a letter oZl^^ C^Z^^ ^^^^^^ —-ate to ti Mr. Casgrain: — even^iS:^ 2^2:^^^^::^i^Z( ^ '- ^ ^r -^"^" ^^ ^^- ---- 1 oath. ''^' *^"^' ^' ^'- Orolel has anything to say, he may say it on Hon. Mr. Justice JettS ;— Tliere is no need to produce that letter. The Witness:— wmiJgirCl no°t'„r "" '^"""'"'■"° •" PO-'iMe m«,„ of i„f„,„„,„„ , j,, .„ ,„,^ Q. To reve,. .o the ,„e,.i„„ rcpecting .he „.o,„„io.„ i„.,o.ich be„a„o du. i„ d.y.to-JbS" ''""°"- ' "■' °°' '»"'=»''«'".i ".Oo^ed .„a » three o.he, „„u» .„„e Q. I« any oa,o, iher. »ero .om. „ot« besides -.e eigned blank, ' h.ve"it:^"rcrrb;;retrb,eixzT^'-'''»>-.'''™'-p«i-«t bank. -^ ^ °^ ''^®'' '^^'^'Sed against me m my account at the w„*«".7«rordrre;S'.^r.^rr^^^^^^^ A. Subsequently, No. Q. ThaA for example a bill becoming due in ton H,iv« h» j u had signed a note dated ten days later ? ^ ^"^ ^^'" ^'''^^•'««" ^^^ that you A. At Mr. Pacarfd's ? Q. Or at Mr. Pelletier ? A. Before my departure. Q. Before your departure ? Q. The signed bianlc. let, „i,b Sea.to, pll^T ' """" "^ *'"• A. There ars no others. Your Honour thnf ;<. f« tk u ^ /• not the slightest doubt about it ; If Her Iwn a „ 't ^^™^^ my departure, I would have to admit threvidenee ' """^ ^^"dwriting, dated after Q. Among those notes that you si^-ned conlrl th^.^ v, u A. The endorsed notes ''' "^^'^ ^'^'^ "^^^ ^^'^^ i" blank ? • Q. The endorsed notes. A. They were all in blank. Q. The date ? A. They had no date at all. Q. I am not speaking about the signed blanks T o,„ ,, i • which you had signed some days previously bote siJl^K ^"^- °' *^° '' *^^«« "^tes to know whether among those notes there were Iny..'' ''^"'^ ^^'^"^^ ■ ^ ^' ^ish A. That would be before the elections. Q. Before the elections, I presume ? Exllibit Ho. m a notice from the &„„„! 1^?'^ .%""■„""" '"'""■ ' Pn»iuee a. M,, eighteen hnndred and „inet,.on,^Sl fdSrrS tt^S^rthfLfdt? 84 \ " ' if- f 580 Hon. H. Merder twenty-five thousand and ninety-nine francs and eighty r, ntimes signed hv Mr Thnr« fh. pr..dent of the hank. I produce as Exhibit No. 123. a'not.ce ofth'sTx h o^^^^^ wlf ?;f "'"^*rf-^891), from the same hank, signed hy the same Mr. S^^^, tdvl ing me ot the receipt of twenty-five thousand francs. The funds had lowered at that time, so that in place of receiving four hundred francs more I received only the twenty-five tnousand francs, and at the same time annexed to tha Jeter there ,s a notice from Messrs. Grunebaum Frfires and Co., i.>8 BouTe^a rHa sman^ mlorming .hat, by cable they placed that sum at my disposal. These a" thelly two urns' which I received from Mr. Pacaud during my journey. ' Q You left with Mr. Pacaud, I believe, befor. your departure, two cheques which vou n7m\trJz;;i;;r"-^-^'^^"•'^-^^^^^ A. Yes, Your Honour. n,n/; ^t"?'**,"' ?*"' ^^ ""f ^?' """^ '^"''" *° ™«' "^^^ 'he cheques in questi, ,n, which were made on the day they are dated, and I find in my pass-book of the Caisse d'Economie S on the second of March I was debited with the cheque for five thousand dollars Ts^WIOl and on the fifth with that for three thousand five hundred dollars (l3,5m It W itoCrs will ake communication of my pa«s-book-I do not produce it, a« I would not hke aH my private concerns outside this matter to be known-but Igive my .ass-book to Your Honours showing that they were debited to me on the fifth in place of the fourth. Q. Did Mr. Pacaud write to you when forwarding you the first draft of the month of May ? A. Yes, Your Honour, he wrote me a few lines stating that he had sent me a drnff which he hoped I had received ; unfortunately I had not /et received the amouTt ^hen received the letter; a. you may see by the papei. produced, it took a good d"l o7 ime the first amount bemg sent me by an ordinary draft, took a great deal of time, and wa not lZi:l t. "T^"'- ?^ '"'"^ '^ ''^ "^^ twenty-ninth, but the ;eceipro the til f ^, /" A '"Vf "^'''■'' *"' ' '' '^' ^^^" ^^"* '« "^e °" the fourteenth that it ook fourteen days beiore it> wa. received; Mr. Pacaud wrote to me, to the be t of my recollection, at once ; his letter came much faster as- the draft was delayed, we know whit made'o tb '"Ti" ,''"'i ""^ ""^' '^'''' " '' ^^ ^y cable; the second draft wi made on the seventh, by a letter of the sixth of July. Q. Have you those letters from Mr. Pacaud advising you A. Xo, I di.l not keep those letters, it was simply a letter of advice stating • " I have sent you according to your request " Q. You did receive a letter respecting the several amounts sent you by cable ? A. No, because it was impossible for a letter to reach me in time. th.i^ T) ^ mean, subsequently did you not receive a letter from Mr. Pacaud advising you that he had sent that amount ? o s ^ vm A. I received the money on the sixth, that is it was in bank on the seventh of J,dy the very day I left Pans for London ; so that I could not have a letter ; I embarked on he' seventh at Pans vife Calais for London, I p.ssed one day in London and i emTarked atlvt Hon. H. Mercier 531 :ne(l by Mr. Thors, the sixth of July, eighteen ame, Mr. Thors, advis- ? four liundred francs B time, annexed to that Boulevard Hausniann, are the only two sums ro cheques which you the Commission, being hether they are really 00), and the other of 0), both drawn on the question, which were lisse d'Economie that isand dollars (fo.OOO), )0). If Your Honours would not like all my ook to Your Honours, h. of the month of May 1 ul sent me a draft the amount when I 1 good deal of time ; jf time, and was not lut the receipt of the \ fourteenth, that it le, to the best of my ^ed, we know what second draft was e stating : " I have . by cable ? acaud advising you 3 seventh of July, [ embarked on the smbarked at Liver- pool on the ninth, that is on the next day ; so that it was impossible for me to receive a were they left with hin^t ''• ^''"""^ ^^ "^'^'^"^ °^ '^^'^ '-'o cheques, for what purpose were other requirements, he could make use of them, but tl.at was the chtf p'urpo e ''"' The second amount was specially to settle matters which might arise here The person who generally tra.,.act« my business at Quebec is Mr Boivin" ,. my former pnvnte secretary, who i«„„,v a..sistant provincial Lcretarvr' ^ '""''"' my clerk, I have full confidence in him • I told him an,l ^ ,• ^ ' '"''"' ^"'•'"'^••ly when I absent myself, all my account. ;vVry llair/ra 'alin^stTe aTe^fbeTr ^^ h"";;;;^;^r=:r;ji^:-- - ^.-n.s. ij^.. s^s^^r-SLi: paid, you will please p^y itlt of th at he -' Tw't f " u'''^ ^ ^-^^s to be because I had the monev and I did noMHn^ .w ' "'"^' '^'' ^^"^"^ ^ '*"'« high, a. was used. I must c^nV^ Jitht t Tntthn '^ ^:^ TltZZ^T '' ''''"^ ^Tr::::b:x:rcrHr^'-^^ ^-^^^^f^^^ hut in Q. Was not this subscription made previously ' one. t „.";• «" i„"r;.;.""' ""•™ "»" "»' •» •-= *"• '» '-•'«. ">« ■>■»">■, . .„. . ,^ Q. Did Mr. Pacaud, since your return, give vou anv «vni.,.„,; .ill cil the met di..g„l; p« ^f ,t crisi. ^h'T" "'"' '"" ■ '' "' ■'""-e »1>.. I m». .feted. If the'comS, a irr; Ti , X'^StT"''''' T", ' '""' «"« where.I believe, I received manvhnnnnr,n„ii I ;''' ^''^'^ ^hat f arrived from Europe here I found myself daggeTAn' the mud u.^" ""' « fo. 1 . -^ ' ^"^ °°' ''^" .he, w„„,u he..p.h,c or h.c„mi„;;;L;\?r;f r„;''fh:^^ that, but I wn» morally convinced that it wa, tre lit Dart oltfT ,' v "»' "'"I""" ■he«r.tthi„gthatld.a w„ to tele.raph to m ' J^^l «» „ i i t^.^eldlZTo meet them aa aoo., a, p„,„hle »o «. to gel information. Mr. Garneau wae it M^rrav S. Mr. B,.yer ivae on a trip to Labrador, Mr. Rohidoiii wa« at si Pl,iii„„ « ?.i ,'*' ™> > was. I believe, on a voyage in the L^wer St. We™ t^^^:!^^:^^! etu t'Sl': rSl"ri^"'nr^ ^"' ^^'^'^ ^^^" had^onetoLnTu^Lfa^ only ';r!ht; ui'mr on tlt^t zi Sberrs^^^^^ Tr " ""r'^' '-* ^ ^^"'^ several of them replied : '. Well we have a^S^;: ouV^^lt ^ m! 'a^^r = t w,ll go m the begn.ning of September." They can,e on the second of September and Your Honours know the rest from the official correspondence before you. ^'^'^"'^^'' *"'' ^^"'^ fh.il' r^r ^^'- f "''*"'• 'P°^^ '" ^"^ ••'^«P«<='i"g Mr. Macdonald's proposal did vou think that he had any interest ,n the contract, if any contract were given I Mr. Macdonala ? A. No, Your Honour, I had no reason to suspect !hat he had any snecial intprp^f • on,i m any case I wish it to be well understood respecting these negSons that I df.llV Mr. Pacaud further than what I stated yesterday. Ld in a^ "2; ace d^L, VaT except on the occasion perhaps when he introduced Mr. Heaton Armstrong to „.e fh„t?; ^'"Vf''*'''"l'^*''j""?PP°'^'^'''*"*^^«'^^«»Mr.Macdonaldand Mr Pacaud at that time, or between Mr. Pacaud and Mr. Heaton Armstrong, and even between Mr Pacaud and the new syndicate later on ? ^ wnveen jir. racaud Hon. H. Merder 688 tnniission, either from aid in the newspapers A. Well with the new syndicate, Your Honour, I had no occasion t„ suspect anything as It was 80 short... you see the way... ""> uung Q. I am not i^nsisting on any suspicion ; I ask you whether, seeing Mr. P.u.i,..! intore.sting himself m mtroducmg to you Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Heaton Armstrong, you hough? ielatUT ""^ " '''""" ''^- '''*'^"'' *^"' these gentlemen, and what were [^e A. 1 tell you that as to the last syndicate, there were no other relations, to the host of 7Jtr T7' *h^anthc«e whichIment^.->H a. having taken place in 'the t ain rom Montreal to New York, ..nd the maun r ,n ^v. .-h I spoke of Mr. Arm., rong. may show Jour Honour, how htt e I was disposcrl to go fnrtV... with them. As to Mr. M.c iJualH knew o the friendly relations which Mr P«.. vud had • ith Mr. Cameron, with Mr Mac „naid oi R.v.ere du Loup, supenntendeut, I be.^'e ... o'i u . .tiun of the railway, brother-in-law of Mr. Langevm.-hia friendly relations with '.:-„-, .^o gentlemen: and , n the othTr hlnS when I was satiBhed, when the Government .as satisfied with what Mr Macdonald had .S n the construction of the Temiscouata Railway, which was m.ie under renmrkable c< ndT ions more remarkaWe than any road which we were occupied in constr icUnT and kn^w! mg that Mr. Pacaud knew my views on the necessity of constructing the Baie des ChaleuTs R^ulway. I was not surprised that under those various circumstances which I hav mc.Sed he took a very special interest in the matter; but as for believing for a moment tha he was an agent between Mr. Maalonald and the G. vernment after what I have stated arte wll I had done, it could not have and did not enter and has not yet entered into my mTnd Q. When did It come to your knowledge for the first time, th vt Mr. Pacaud bad naid Mf L:ngX?r ""'• ''^- '^^"^^"^^' °' ""'' ""'''''' '^^«« ™- - advance'd Tge ^Zt A. Have I seen something in the reports in the Senate proceoding.s ? It is possible • I do not remember for the moment ; but I questioned Mr. Charles LangeHer and Mr PacVu. on the matter, as I questioned each minister, to know exactly how matters stood and Mr Cha Langeher with his characteristic frankness, told me everything. Q. At what date ? A. It was sometime before the Commission commenced to sit; it was about the time hat I was getting information from my c.ll.agues as to what had Occurred. That was 3 done in one day or in two days. It took a g, ...t deal of negotiation. niissl!^^ near J-l'f " '"" '°" ''^ ""'^ '''''' "^ ^^^ ^'^^^^^ ^^^ ^-^ ^^fore the Com- A. Somewhat different, but on the whole I believe it was the same tbinsr OnK- nr Langeher told me that if he had known that any part of the m ne^ L he had 'eeived carne from his Baie des Chaleurs matter, he would have followed the advi e I ha g ven him before leaving and this was the advice, Your Honours : Mr. Cl.as. Langelier and I ar^ intimately connected, and when I left, he made known to me his uneasiness Tto the buifZ of his house, and I left him a note endorsed by myself for $4,000 Tn cai he shtld w nf money I told him : " do not apply to any one els., you will easily get th money ^ou wan with that endorsement," telling him the banks to which he could go. He otTered hTt note to Mr. Pacaud, he aske.l Mr. Pacaud t<. get it discounted for him-this is Mr Lm^^^^ 8tory-Mr. Pacaud told him : " you do need to make use of the note endorsed by Mr Me L, I have money and I will lend you some." And when I had the history of the whofe trans .ction of all that had parsed, that was one thing that I reproached Mr. Lan.elier wil, not "S ^: 584 Hon. H. Mercier % i ,1 (120,000). ^ °* """^ °^ ^^^'^ ^'^''^"es for twenty thousand dollars O fJiV^^''^^^ '^""^ ''" ^'''^ ^'"" '^^'^ P"^«'y accidentally. sion.1ha?he hadtrd':LT hr; h' '"' ^7,^"-'^'^S« ^'^ what was done on that occa- prcsidentot tie bank? '"'" ^''''^ •^''^^^" ^^'•- ^^^^^^^ '^'^^ the cashier or the A. Respecting the discounting of the promissory note ? ^. Respecting the discounting of Mr. VallitNre's note ? genetli'XttSbinafkrtr' *''' 'l^'^^'t "^ ^"^"^^^^"^ ^" ^^-^^ -"-'-* by these tj; gentlemen ^" '" ' '^"' ^' ^"^ ^'^'^ '^' ™^"^' ^^'^^^^ over Q. Do you not remember the conversation exactly ' A. No. •' ■ occal^o" Z stbltVZrtTyV'^ ^°^^^ 'P""^- ^« ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^elier on that nie ttis'Tbour. "hftTe was^^tr^'r'^' 'V" '^" '* ^^^P^-" ^^^* '- -- ^^ere, he told Pacaud had gone to the a^ and that'the^d"' ""' '^ '^' ''''' "^"^^ ^* ^^ ^^^ ^'^^• J^^h^togoin,andth^£r^-rrd-i?xrS Q. Did he tell you with what the discount in question was connected ? in^porun:; foThaf ''Tsoonrhe h Tm^ ^'n' T'' ''' '"^^^ ' ^'^ ^^ "^"-^ ™-h itself. n,y r61e as Prime Ss^rtatd "'^ '"'^^ '^ •"' "°' '^""'^ °^ *^« *~«- in Zu^U '"' '" '''' '' '"'^" "'^* ^"°'^-' -^f these notes had been offered for discount tica,^sj:^:;:,'?:^^;:srh:i:=^" ^-^'^ '-' '^ - ^'- - -p-- one Iw t::slt;;r;:o';:;^r^' '"'^^ ''""• ^^''^^"^ ^^^ ^"^-^^^'^ - ^'^^ '^---ting of A. I learned it here, in court. Q. Did Mr. Robidoux admit it to you, since ? houst' h; r^ick^^n^Te St' f:;: "rl^'^'t ;""" V" ^" ^^- ^°^'^'-- «-- ^^ 'eft my EobidouxarrivedwS hLflmnraS Ihl '?f r? "^"^ '''' "^^^ house when Mrs since. ^'^^' """^ ^ ^*^« °«t h«d the pleasure of calling to see him matter Q. Have you had no ooi versation with Mr P/lK;,Ir^.,^ • ter ? *^'^' ^hidoux. smce your return, respecting this n,'] m Hon. H. Mercier 58^ thua have avoided all [r. Langelier on that honourable conditions, with all possible prudence. He made me acquainted with all the facts now betore the Commission, and gave me full satisfaction. Q. At what date, Mr. Mercier, did you learn that the note to which you refer in the letter to which Mr. Pacaud alluded, and which he partly cited the other day, that that note or signed blank had not been required to forward you the first draft for $5,000? At what time did you learn that xMr. Pacaud had sent you that sum out of his own funds and had only dis- counted the note later ? A. I must admit that I only learned it when I went to pay the not«, and under these circumstances : The note was signed by Mr. Pacaud; I had not rc^ jived notice of the maturity ot l;^e note. Mr. Dumoulin, agent of the Banque du Peuple at Quebec, came to my office one morning, a Saturday morning, I believe, on the 3rd of October, telling me : " Do you know that there is a note endorsedjby you for $6,000 due to day " ? I said • " no I did not know It, I have had no notice." He said : '• I believe I should tell you, as it seems to me It was a note for you, as Mr. Pacaud explained it at the time. " I sa^d • " in any case I donot owe $6,000, 1 owe .*5.000. He said to me. Yes, exactly. A. 1 he said to me.Ibelieve " Mr. Pacaud is prepared to pay $1,000, if you settle the other $5,000." But, I said : " certainly I have to settle the other $5,000, only you take me a little by surprise, Mr. Dumoulin it is a httle late to find the $,5000 on a Saturday, will you allow me to write on the back of the note " Good as surety " so as to avoid protest; I hope that you will accept my endorse- ment as sufficient, although you have also the endorsement of Mr. Chs Langelier " He said to me : " Very well." I said : " On Monday I will settle the matter." Then on Monday I paid it that IS, I settled the note ; I paid the money I had on hand and I settled otherwise for the balance. By Mr. Casgrain : — • ^" ^ «" ^'"'" '^ ^"""^ Minister, met Mr. Robidoux, and you asked him for explan- ations did Mr. 'Robidoux tell you in any way what he had done respecting the promissory note for $20,000 in Montreal ? f & » i nissory A. No. Q. There was no question of it at all between you and him ? A. I was not aware of the fact at the time. Q. He did not mention it to you ? A. I have said no. Sir. eithe^"?^""^' '^^'"' *^''' ^''""^'^ ^'^''^ ^°" *" "°°°''"'^ ''^ '*^<^ '"'^"e'"' Mr. Pacaud said nothing A. No. Q. He concealed that fact from you ? A. I said no. Q. At what date was the note of the 30th of June, for $6,000, of which you have last spoken, being Exhibit No. 98, paid ? A. I have just stated it. Q. I did not understand. If you would repeat ? A. I havejust stated in answer to questions from His Honour Judge Jett6, that the note was presented to me on the 3rd of October, and that I wrote on the back " Good as surety," and that I settled it on the 5th. Q. Did you pay $2,000 on it ? A. I settled it. Q. But I ask you the question : Did you pay $2,000 ? ,1 if %' r. w 1 •1 4 n kl it F,t 536 ffon. H. Merder A. I settled it in caah and commercial paper I do not thir,!, ♦!,„* t i.,- , how I settled it. I settled it to the satiafacti7of the bank """ """''^'^ *° '-^^ Q. Now, will you please look at Exhibits Nos 98 mA fin o so q j on « iec.i..„ i. .h..?^7„trsrbLTrrr,r,trhir,e".t '™f ■, ^'"°i a short time ago how that hannpnpH • V «,„ t "^'f^^^ ^'^i* ^ 'eft three only ; I explained .he P»p::vf .s:r;;;'irorxsrr •" '»' " "°- °*- '^•'" -^ "* Q. I would desire it, if you would have the goodness depo.,u for coant„.pe.i.io„., probably electiofacccm . l?^Z^liT^°MT'-'"°'"' n>e-.r,d we will require money ; en you le.ve n, any me.m?» I ,aij " mv Z*"""' % ifon. Mr. Justice Jetti .-— Q. It waa of the Federal elections that you were speaking. A. It was of the Federal elections, which were held on thp fifth nf tw r, ^ ., gentlemen made the use of them, which you know March, and these 5y i>/r. Casgrain : — Q. Now, will you have the goodness to look at two other notes beins Exhihif « »fl i a 89-5, and state for what purpose those two signed blanks were Lft ; ' *" ^^"^ '"^ Q. The other, if you please ? on .if..C ^'*""' '^' " '■ "' "" '»'" •""*■ "■» "•>■ • W ^ I ".»e have endorsed i. .re .tfn:;.!:-i,'^Tit;rrr "'"°" '"''™^ "■«« -"■ ' ^°' »-«' p-p-"- « . any way „ave .way, done^.neu "n,^ pTr.^ :ty ^Hr^iLT/errier ^ ' Hon. H. Mercier 58t it I am obliged to say I, and 89-9, and tell Mr. Pelletier? 89-3 and 89-9. I say le fourth. My recol- ree only ; I explained one note under the "my recollection, otes again and state rill repeat it if the iircumstances that I dgeJettd.Iwastold: ection contestations, I would not surprise lid : " My resources ns sufficient for my h as it is pretended, c ; I endorsed them ' March, and these ; Exhibits 88-1 and twenty-eighth of e date mentioned ; have endorsed it For what purpose /ommittee, telling then, I endorsed, endorsement. Q. Mr. Mercier, did you not bring to Europe with you any part of the proceeds of that note 89-5 ? A. No. Q. Now, is it not true that one of these six notes was made to send five thousand dollars (15,000) to Mr. Blair, of New Brunswick? A. I am not aware of that, but I would be pleased to know that it was true. Q. Now, Mr. Mercier, can yon state whether any of these have been given in renewal of other previous notes? A. I am not aware of that ? Q. You know nothing about that at all? A. No. Q. Before endorsing these notes, sometime before, you had endorsed other notes, had you not ? A. Many, Sir. ^ Q. Can you state about the amount ? A. No, Sir. Q. I am perhaps indiscreet? A. You are a little indiscreet, but I confess that I would willingly tell vou if I knew ; I am not aware and I would rather be unaware of it for a long time ; all that I know is that I have not been called upon to pay ? Q. Can you not state approximatively the amount of these notes which you have never been called upon to pay ? A. I am speaking. Sir, of notes for political purposes ; as to my notes for my private concerns, I can give you a very exact account of them. Q. No, no, I do not want it ? A. But as to those notes, no; I have no means of tracing that. Your Honours, because I left the matter entirely in the hands of the Quebec Committee ; when the Quebec Com- mittee, composed of respectable men as those I have named, asked me to sign, I signed. Q. Could It have been fifty thousand dollars (*50,000) ? A. Oh ! Sir, I am not in a position to answer you. If you like I will hold an enquiry mto It. I will get these gentlemen to come and I will ask them, if the Commission require It, but I am not in a position to state it. Q. You cannot state whether, between twenty-five and fifty thousand is the amount for which you were responsible ? A. I am not in a position to answer that question at the moment ; II the Commission order me to make searches I will, do so. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — It does not concern us. By Mr. Casgtain : — Q. Then, you have no idea ? A. Well I said what I have to say. Q. And that gave you^no uneasiness ? A. No, because I was dealing with honourable and responsible men. Q. Now, will you state, if you please, whether when these two cheques, Exhibit 96 and 95, were signed by you, there were funds in the Caisse d'Economie to meet them ? 538 Hon. H. Mercier A. Certainly, Sir, since they were accepted on the same days. Q. Were they accepted on the same days ' Q. Now, will you state vhere those cheques were signed ? A. In my house, 6 de Breboeuf street, in Quebec. Q. Some days before the election ? A. On the dates mentioned. Q. You naturally took a very active part in the elections at the time ? A. Ah ! yes, Sir, you must have noticed that. Q. Then jou had not al the time two accounts in the Cai»e d'Economic ? rr„.' "' "- '° ""' ™' •-' «'-'« -^hf 42 rre7i:'r:s, 'f i yonXlT *'"" "" "" """""^ "* "■• ■"""" "' ""»» *«1- O' the .tub,,. „f A. Of those two cheques. Q. Yes? A. I will show them to the Commission. Q. You do not wish to show them to me ? m Hon. H. Mercier 53» 20632 and that is the f any other. I will; re is the numbei- 301 8 or the stubl/s of not wish to deliver to the public ; I do not wish that it should be known what I paid for such and such a private matter. * . ,J;;^°«'^*^",7««I^«"'';bej«hamedofmaki^ my private concerns, but I do not wiHh to admit the pnnciple that even this Commission can enter into my private matters ^hich have no connection with the enquiry ; but I will place the stubbs of my cheques' before Your Honours, and Your Honours will do what you like with it Q. I must ask you this question : Is it not true that these two cheques were, or one of A. I deny that emphatically, rt is an atrocious calumny Q. Were not .he contingencies of your department deposited in the Caisse d'Economie. A I do not think so. I think that none of the contingencies of my deDartmentTm deposited at all. They are in Mr. P.mpeau's hands, and I have no contTol ove'"hem Q. Do you not draw them yourself ? (The witness asks his secretary for information). Mr. Casgrain : — Ah ! but, Mr. Mercier The Witness: — Have I no right to get information ? Mr. Casgrain : — I do not believe, that when under examination, you can get any information. The Witness:— I ask permission to get information on this point: how the contingencies are paid in my Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .•— There is no objection to that. The Witness: — „n^ '^^v I' ''' ^°"'' ^°''°"'- ^ °*" ^^^^ *^^ responsibility of the information which I receive and which any way agrees with my own experience. Every year tlie LSurrvoteV for departmental contingencies a sum of from «50,O);> .u m,m As soon as the slion is over, this 18 distributed between the departments by Order i^ Counc 1 n uTeit by^ roso hition of the Council of which the auditor and accountant of contingenes^e notified'. Tins for example, I wilUreceive 15,000 for contingencies ; that amoSnt spaced to the creu t of my department by Mr. Campeau, the accountant of contingencies n re lltl not'ant; that°"'^ "'^ ^ ''''''' '^^"'^^"°" ''^' '' ^^ ''^ olitqur^MythequTirol ^y Mr. Casgrain : — are yl'IoI7°" ""' '"^'"'^"^ "''"'" ^°" '""'^^ "'' ^"'''''' '''^ intimate with Mr. Pacaud, A. Yes. I lti.,ii t J.; i ^w ^ -'^ 540 Hon. H. Mercier Q. You meet him very often ? A. Very often. Q. Every dny ? A. I would not care to say every day. Q. But nearly ? A. Very often— that should be sufficient ■■•<.>• you— w- ten Q. When did you give Mr. Pacaud the order not to Bciveas intermediary between th^^ Government and those who had business with the Goverr.neut, or S^Z of tCe w o had .>ijmne.s8 with the Government ? ^ ® '° A. Jt was upwards of a year, v iien I left for Europe. Q It waa upwa> J, ,,\ :i year wl.en you left for Europe' A. Yes? ^ Q. Could you tell ui ivhy vo.. gave hiL-;. that order? A. Generally. I exp!,-.ii.K,d .':. yesierday ; it wa« because I saw in the newsnaners nil kinds ol malevolent insiuu..-- .., and 1 thought it more prudent r. was nola' order was rather a request to avo,.,' ,-, much ns possible meddling with busine....!.. of o he« ' *..>. And hf oonti'HK"!, i;owever? A. He seems io have continued, but I waa not aware of it, Sir. y. You know Mr. Paca.id's manner of living at Quebec ? A. And what do you call manner of living ? Q. The 8tv if, of life he leads ? A. The style of life ? Q. Yes. A. No, I cannot say that I know his style of living. Q. You often went to his house ? A. Often, yes. Q. Since you are Prime Minister, you have always lived in Quebec ? A. PT,rdon me. Q- Apart from some absences to go to Tourouvre or elsewhere ' A. Pardon me. I live in Montreal, that is where my family is. Q. But you have a house in Quebec, and remain there constantly ' A. I have a house in Quebec, and pass a large portion of my time in Quebec with Mr Tr'r''A^°""°*''""P"'''' *^^* Mr. Pacaud had arranged for you an interview ■with Mr. Heaton Armstrong and Mr. John J. Macdonald 9 an mierview «n,-H t f l'"^' ^ ^^^ ""*f "*^ ^^''^ ^^ ^'^^ ^'''^^^S^^ *" interview with Mr. John J. Macdonald I ad that he came w,th Mr. Cameron. I believe that it wa. with Mr. Cameron that the nterview took place, and whether Mr. John J. Macdonald was present or not that did no take away its character a. an interview with Mr. Hector Cameron. I to Mr Heaton n^trhTno ;l;llt^^^^ -A-. ?— w^" ^"-^-d hi^ tfme^jr „„t tu I, /.. . •' "'""^' pciouii Willi iniroaucea not the honour of knowmg that gentleman, and I do not consider it is a been introduced by Mr. Pacaud. Q. Certainly not ; but were you not surorised "> A. No. Q. When Mr. Pacaud spok^, ■ you for the first time abou* ,'- « Cooper syndicate, did that surpri^ vou ? A. He never spoke to me beyond what I have mentioned a she t . the car. Did it r .rt. surprise you ? A. I said he asked purely and simply whether I wished to receive (^ b >nour to have e^Cotiations of the ago. It waa on rrostrong on Hon. H. Mercier 541 re -> Ai-TTJstrong on this matter, and I told him that I did not wUh to see Mr. Armstrong on business. That fairly well expressed my surprise, I think. "='"es8. mat Q. Did you on that occasion tell Mr. Pacaud : I pray you to be good enough to mind your own busmesa-something in that sense-or not to meddle with Government busin as which does not concern you ? "usiness, A As soon as I had told Mr. Pacaud that I did not wish to see Mr. Armstrone with ,espec to that matter, that I would answer Mr. Lallamme's letter myse^aS.av ne consulted with my colleagues. Mr. Pacaud understood. He is very intelligent ^ a When he arranged the interview for you with Mr. Heat.n Armstrong, did you dve him the same recommendation ? ^' ^ S*^® A. Ah! No, because that hud reference to a transaction of floating bonds for a million dollars upon the English market, and as he told me that he had met Mr Hea on Armstrong, and that it might favor the Baie des Chaleurs enterprise, I did not tWnk that T should refuse to meet Mr. Armstrong to make him aware of the auestion of which he wished to consult me. question of law upon Com^anT/'" '''"''"''' "' "''""" '"" "'"'' ''' subscription book of the Fortress Hotel A. I do not think so. Q. You ha,d not promised to take any amount of stock before leaving for Eurone ' A. I would wish, before answering in a positive way as I am asked fV IL ^ u criptions. Your Honours, but .his is wLt I 'ememberfl met Mr. DobeU «„: daT Vho "l believe, 18 the president of the company or one of the principal directors ^ ' Q. One of the principal directors? A And he asked me what we would be disposed to do for that new comnanv Wp tnU me all about it in a few words. I said to him : what do you want us to doT^T.ij'' p "\^ we wish to have letters patent. I told Mr. Dobell : you may be certain thl; w. w^ii / ' much a. possible the issue of the letters patent for an enTrpHse that ma^ h )T ''' Quebec. I must have added-it is my recoLtion for 'l^^anS^^ '" "•" "' " -I must have added that if my subscription would be of I ^ use I tould be Z^L '" to subscribe, but I do not remember that I was got to subscril^e ^efoiri^St'lbri d'oTo^ Q. You returned from Europe on the 18th of July ? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Pacaud left on the 10th of August? do not. ' ''""'* '*''' ''' ''^ "' ""'' ^'^^'"^' ^^^^^^ ''^^^^^^ ^« -"^'d «° here. He knows it, I Q. You doubtless asked him, after vour return frnm F1lr,^,^^ „,v, talking of the Baie des Ch,Ueurs matter.Tr eSanatio^ ? "^ ' '"'" '"'""'"'^ A. Yes. Q. And you state that Mr. Pacaud, having promised them to yon, never gave them ' A. I did not say that. Q. Will you repeat what you did say ? A. I said that before his leaving for Eurone I ask^d him f« ,r,oU ™n,«ri., „„ ..e Whole „.„er. He p^»™..a ?f ^i l:"^,f^i::j:tz:.zf:^'"'' q. It was only on that occasion, when you met him at«te. Anne de la Parade when h« was on his way to Ottawa or to Europe, that you asked him for a memorLdum ? • jLS?".^a g 542 Hon. H. Mercier '* f Q. Before that date had you not asked for explanations ? A. It was the first time that I had met him to have a little talk with him. I met him on my arrival, to say good day to him, but there were somewhat too many persons there for us to talk about business. I met him once on Palace Hill,-I was in a vehicle-" he told me that he had telegraphed to Mr. Vidal, the chairn.an of the Senate Committee, that he wl prepare^d to go to Ottawa, and I told him that he done well. As soon as I could talk to hinT I did what I said a short time ago. Q. Before that time between the 18th July anlthe time you mention, did you not ask him for any statement of account or any explanation ? . j i^t ass A. I have just told you the contrary ; that when he came to Ste. Anne, I asked him to make me a m. morandum of all that had passed. Q. We do not understand one another. Unfortunately we have not been able to understand each other so far, perhaps we will come to it later? A. I ask nothing better. Q. You stated a moment ago, if I understand you correctly, that it was when Mr Pacaud was on his way to the Senate, about the 10th of August ? A. I did not fix the date He was on his way,-it was on Sunday-he was on his way ?^T% ^' ""T.J^t ^"- '^^^^^-th'^* ^"I perhaps aid you to find the date-he was ^ith Mr. Tarte and the Honourable Mr. Mitchell. I had received a despatch froL hinTl believe, or from Mr. Mitchell, and I went to the cars to meet him or those who had telegraphed to me, and I insisted that Mr. Pacaud should leave the cars and come with me to my house He dusembarked with Mr. Mitchell and he came to my house. He passed the afternoon there, and I had sometime to myself to talk to him. Q. Was that the first time after your return from Europe that you had met him ? .h t ^""^ ' ^"nTt u'"^ ""^ ^'''*'' ^''''' ^"'^ ' ^"^ ""' ^™ «" ™y 'arrival ; but it was the first chance that I had to speak to him, to be alone with him. Q. Up to that time you had not, in writing or otherwise, asked him for a statement of account or explanations ? "^cm, ui A. It was the only time I met him to have any conversation with him. r ^' J^*? '\T T^.^' ^° '''^'°'' ^ ^'"^ *° ^^"^ y°"' attention : you stated, in speaking of Mr. Macdonald, that it was Mr. A. R. Mac.lonald, Sir Hector Langevin's brolher-in-law I beheve you made a mistake there, it is Mr. John J. Macdonald ? A. No, I made no mistake in the way I mentioned him. «ru ^' ^^'- Mf donald who was with Mr. Heaton Armstrong was Mr. John J. Macdonald When you bad an interview with Mr. Heaton Armstrong, I believe that Mr. John J Mac- donald was with him ? ' A, I do not remember whether he was with him. Q. Did you meet Mr. A. R. Macdonald about the Baie dos Chaleurs matter? A. I met him on the occasion which I mentioned sometime ago. J M^cdoimldV'^^' "'^ ''""'""'^'*' ''''^^ ""^""^ >'°" ^^'■e 'o b'^ve negotiations was Mr. John A. Certainly, Mr. John J. Macdonnld. t ! I f Hon H. Mercier 548 Quebec to receive his hat it was when Mi m for a statement of tions was Mr. John A. I do not like to say more than I have said. Q. Was that what you said ? A. About that. Q. That is the sense, is it not ? A. Yes. Q. And your surroundings, the ministers, your colleagues, knew that Mr Armstrong was not m your good graces ? o , t i i^l lur. Armstrong A. Generally, yes. In my good graces we must understand Q. As contractor ? T >, ^' ^.\";"«* ""d«--«'°"d each other. Good graces First, I do not know whether I have a right to l.ave good or bad graces. This is what I can say : I did not likeTo see the Government mixed up with transactions with which Mr. Armstrong would bo mled up not flZr7 TTi"'" V"^ ""P^'''^"" '^^"^"«* *^>« '^^--^^^ °r his hones'yX in wha I „nders„od to be the public mterest, I would rather that he was not in it, and I wo 1 like that what I may or do should not be interpreted otherwise than in that sense Ziallv I would meet that gentleman, I never had a disagreeable word with him ; but in shorrii f';' the limits that I have just fixed, those were my sentiments Q. And in a general way, your colleagues knew of your sentiments ' t^ostI:,i:i::!::'::;ZT "'""^^^^ '"' ™y-..eaguesin the House, in general. Q. Were there in the Department of Public Works any claims from Mr Armstrong respecting the constniction of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ' Armstrong A. I produced this morning a letter from Mr. Moreau which says no. By Mr. Biique :— ...ilw'hTwortf ""' "'■ ■'""" '■ "•"'»"'"' ""'"<' '"» """ """^ —"""S -i. A. Yes. Q. For what purpose did he show yo' se estimates ? A. So as to get considerable additional aid hoped to gel"? "'"""' '°" " '"' """ '"'°*^°" ^"" ""y *^«"^^ f°^ *h^ ^^^^*io-l aid which .,. A. No. At least I do not remember. Marc1;?!!!''°" '''*'' '"'' """ '"'' Quebec, before leaving for Europe, on the 10th of A. On the ]Oth of March. Q. Will you state whether you had intended to leave earlier? A. Yes. Q. Earlier than the 'inh of March ? nf th^"/r" ^,^y ^'^P'^'''"''^ ^'^ t"^'«« fi'^ed previously ; once before there was any question of the Federal elections. Our state-rooms, Mr. Shehyn's and mine and Mr ClemL? ! secm-ed even ; and later we again rtxed our departure^or before the eletbns^rn^^^ dui not wish me to lea-, ,- : I then remained. That was before the 5th of Mar^h Q. Now, there is > luostion about the suh.idics that were grauted.-the railway vA 544 Hon. IT Mercier subsidies-of conversion at tiie rate of 70 cents per acre ; will you stato when the last 35 cents are payable and are geneni'l • paid ? ,oo/" ^''"y°"''^"'J™fi the statute of ISSfi or 18S8,-it comes to the same thing-but 1886 IS surer, as it is the lii i statute. (The witness refers to the statute). That question is settled by section 1 of tlio Act 4',»-50 Victoria, chapter 7fi " It shall be lawful for the Lieutenant Govern. ... Uoun^u lo convert, in whole or in part, any subsidy ni land to which any company may be entitled in virtue of the Act 45 Victoria, chapter 23, or of any act passed during the prenent session of the Legislature into a money subsidy, bj- paymg a sum not exceeding thirty-five cents per acre, at the time the said subsidy becomes due, and another sum not exceeding thirty-five cents per acre When the lands allotted ..the said company shall have been sold and paid for, pursuant to the rules and regulations '^« ^. w.eh he forwards to Mr. Machin the correspondeLt^ ^rio^anr S hi stS 85 I 546 Hon. H Metcier DePAV-mKNT op PtTBUC WoKKS, Railway Office, „ ^ „ „ ■ Quebec, 18th June, 1891. H. T. Machin, Esq., Assistant-Treasurer, P. Q., Quebec. Deal Sir, I am directed by the Honourable the Commissioner and acting Premier, to enclose you herewith a certified Cdny of a letter he has addressed on the IGth instant to Mr. A. M, Thom, the Secretary -Tieasurer of the Bale des Chaleurs RailwHy Company, and by which the Government ha.s nj^reed to his proposal to transfer and apply to the section of that railway extending between the (iUth and 80th miles, and to pay to the company, two months after said completion, an amount of seventy thousand dollars out of the two totals of the Ist 35 cts. of its land subsidy, converted into money, under the acts 4,5 Vict., chap. 23, S'Ction 1, par. b, and 51-52 Vict., chap. 9, section 12, and which amount of subsidy (*70,0(K).00) would otheiwise, under the actual legislation be earned by tVera only on the completion of the two last twenty miles between the 80th and 100th miles, on the section extending from Metapedia to Paspebiac. In consequence of the above acceptance of such proposal, you will be kind enough to take note of it and insert in the estimates to be Itud before the House, at its next session, an equivalent amount of 170,000.00 to be paid to that company, under the above conditions, during the fiscal year ending 30th June, 1892. At the same time, the Government will take care that the necessary legislation be adopted during next session to legalize such transfer and payment of 170,0(10.00. I remain, dear Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) E. MOREAU, Director of Railways. That is the regular manner which seems to have been omitted in the first letter of the sixteenth of June. Q. During the course of the inquiry, there has been a reference to what has been called letters of credit; the letter for one hundred thousand dollars addressed to the Union Bank, and the letter for seventy-five thousand dollars addressed to the Banque Nationale, to cover the one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars paid to Mr. Armstrong. \Vill you state whether there was anything unusual in the fact that letters of that nature were issued by a department ? A. There is nothing unusual, it is what is done, and what has always been done here in Quebec. Q. Can you refer us to any precedents ? A. Certainly, if the Commission desires it, I might refer to a certain number of which I have a list hero. First, I must state to the Commission that the expression, letters of credit, does not seem to me to be correct. I do not wish to discuss technicalities in expressions, but I understand that a letter of credit is a document Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — We may be getting on dangerous ground here. We are pretty strict as to details res- V '^ Hon. H. Mercier 547 ;he first letter of the ays been done here ct as to details res- ecting these transiictions and you must not oomnl,.in if lo* nection with your cxununation that you "lu .Tlike """ '^"''"•°"' ^'' P"* ^" ^'^'^^ Mr. heu/ue : — If the Con.mission thinks that I should not enter into that Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— I do not say that Mr. Bdioue I nnlv <»iv^ ,.«., e ■ cei lue, I only give you fair warning of what may possibly occur. Mr. Beique : — Mr.HaU:— Would the Commissioners mean then that nil fV,ot , .• ^ • issuing letters of credit be struck out ^ '"" referring to the habit of Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .•— We do not think that should apply a« to the pa^t practice. Mr. Iliiijue; — I understand that it should be limitpfl tn m- fl™. .ual, and the re„„n. that were gi™ ™So°t Z.^fn,''''!" 'i''?' ',' """' "" ""''^'"^ ""'•• that may have hee.i given. ' "^ '"'" ''""I* " '» ">» letters of eredil »en.i„„ed, „„ the tenth «>^rZ':^ZZZZ''ZX::^:S'T- " ^°" — I do not re„,ember „y other „a„,es NoTeJof e, Le^ '' "T' "" ''"°'""' ■"■" '»»■"''• oth„ endorsement. «re not n,«,e in n,;pC„rXt',S,7thL°" i""' "''■ "" ...,rr.::it:z;rern'iL'';rr„tT'- ?^t"" ^^ » «»-' *"'«'»- bmugh. against me. iL a „a"t^; „™ h"cot ni'S^J , ° "'"."°"'"" ""''=" '»"' ""' ..y money in tha, matter. I wi.h to f»l?;S'r.h:.'r« n^" """"" ' '"""«' Bon Mr. Justice Davidson .■— That is quite proper. Mr. Casgrain: — ••"•"^ ^=^ ""put now. Tlie question ll 548 Hiti. H. Mercur is this, and I submit it to the Commission : I wish to know whether it is not true that Mr. Hector Cameron's letter to Mr. Mercier, of the oth of December, eijjhteen hundred and ninety was written at the request and on the suggestion of Mr. Mercier? A. I Crtnnot admit that; that letter is dated at Quebec, the fifth, it was received in my office on the seventh ; I do not see why 1 should have suggested to Mr. Cameron that he should write to me. Q. Do you deny it? A. Well, Sir, I cannot deny that detail, but I cannot admit it either, I stand to tho.se deelarations. I do not see why I should have told Mr. Cameron to write me that letter. It is possible that in consequence of an interview, it may have been agreed that that gentleman should [lut in writing what had been in question. That often happens, after an interview, after a conversaiion on an important matter, for fear that I could not have exactly caught the idea of the person speaking to me, I toll them : Be good en.iugh to put that in writing, or I say : put yuur proposal in writing ; but I ilo not remember that that was done in this instP.nce, but I cannot go beyond the declarations that I have made. Before terminating, I desire to declare that I did not 'receive, either directly or indirectly, any favor, any promise or any consideration of any kind, either from Mr. Pacaud oi from any person, in connection with this transaction. The Witness: — If the Commission will allow me, I have just read the conclusions of the letter which states that Mr, Cameron greatly regrets that under the circumstances he must discontinue all negotiations, that his client, Mr. Miicdonald, is not in a position to undertake the construction. It is impossible that I could have suggesteit- that. On the contrary all my evidence, the whole proof up to the present time, shows an ardent desire that Mr. Macdonald .should undertake the enterprise. Another fact v/hich is before Your Honours, is Mr. Cameion's letter of the seventh of February, when the new subsidy was in the statutes, the statutes distributed, and known especially to an advocate of Mr. Cameron's standing. He again asks me if I will grant the ten thousand acres per mile, ond I replied that it is impossible to grant one cent more than what is in the statute. And further the dej onent saith not. Mr. Hall':— Before the Commission adjourns, I may say, with reference to this letter of the 5th September, that when I saw it in the record, I spoke to Mr. Macdonald about it. It is signed by Mr. Hector Cameron ; and I asked him why it was written ; and ho said it was Vritten after an mterview he had with Mr. Mercier. Matters were not progressing favorably with the company, and they were pressing the Gdvernment also to include a larger sum in the estimates to try and get more under the terms o*^ their contract. Mr. Mercier suggested to Mr. Cameron that a letter might be written stating the circumstances ; and this letter, I understand, was written in the presence of Mr. Macdonald in the Garrison Club by Mr. Hector Cameron. Under these circumstance-'. I do not know that it is of a great deal of importance other than this, that it might seem from the terms of this letter that the negotiations with the Government were interrupted or broken off. On this point I would like to recall Mr. Macdonald. John J. Macdonald 549 Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — If you think if, of any importance you may recall him. id I replied that it is JOHN J. MACDONALD, recalled on the special application of Mr. Hall, Q.C., deposed aa follows : — » -v > i- By Mr. Hall, Q. C.:— Q. Mr. Macdonald, I would like to call your attention to the letter bearing date the fifth December, which has been file,„ t ^^•^'>',7'f,'^«^«P*'^/^«"^P«id regularly. I see the initials of the clerk who accepted iSut^dlf rnd'plir ''' ^"^^"'^ ^^'"^^ ''-''-'-' -''^' «^-« *^- everything's By Mr. Cusgrain : — A. ye«,8ir, they are my initials. lie we had with the Angus M. Thorn 551 Q. Will you state why you placed them there ? A. To authorize the payment of the cheque. Q. Are you accustomed to put your initials ? Is it not the ledger-keeper who usually puts his initials to accept a cheque? uauaiiy A. It is the clerk who initials, the ledger-keeper dollars ($3,500/?"' '' " *^'* ^''" '"'''^'''^ '^^* '^"^"' ^'' three thousand five hundred ,> ^.\^ ^''^ "°*f ''"■ *''.*''■■ ^u"''^"'"' ^''°"°* ^^^"'^^ ^^'"^"e to the Com.ni.8ion ; perhaps finSaled r''' ''"' '''"""* '^ ' '"^ ^°"'^' ""'^ P^^'^P^ 'h*^* ^^^ *^«?^reason Q. Perhaps there were no funds ? A. I could not say that. Q. Will you please search and state whether at that date there was sufficient money to meet the cheque in question ? A I have nothing here that would assist me to search, for I simply was ordered to present before the Commission the cheques for five thousand dollars ($5,000) and for three thousand and hve hundred ($3,500), and as these chequns had been returned to the Honour! able Mr. Mercier, I had only brought Mr. Mercier's receipt. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jelti :~ Q. Can you verify it from your books ? A. Yes, Your Honour, we can verify it. The deposition of the witness is adjourned until to-morrow, the thirtieth of October, 1891. ! h sand five hundred ANGUS McINTYRE THOM, aged 42, secretary-treasury of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, being duly sworn upon theHoly Evangelists; doth depose as follows 7 Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :~ Q. What is your present position as regards the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company '/ A. Secretary-Treasurer and Director. Q. How long have you been holding that position ? A. Since the 6th of May. Q. What year? A. nils year.-no, sir, I am wrong there: I think the secretaryship was at the next meeting,— probably a week later. ^^^ Q. When did yon first become connected either directly or indirectly with the nejrofa- uons v-luch were ,n progress to take over the franchises and work of the old Sdes Chaleurs Railway Company and complete the road ? A. Do you mean when I first began negotiations ? Q. No, the question \a broader that that ? (Question reneated to witness.) A. I think about the latter end of February. Q- Of what year V A. This year. 562 Angus M. Tliom Q. .state with what respect,-in connection with what persons. A. The negotiations first commenced through Armstrong. H- tim you any previous connection with Mr Tnl.n t ^t . ,j A. I have done bu«ine.s with th«,. I T Macdonald or Hector Cameron ? Q. Did Mr Macdona, mlw " ""''"" ""'' ''^" ^'°"' *^'« -^'^• obtain poss.s[on oTthe'lT '"" "'^"""^^^ ^^"^ *^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^e was endeavoring to A. Yes, Sir. secure possession SeBafe^sThal^.rsRl'ilfiv^n*^ ^',"'^,''' *° "'*''•' arrangements to the information I possessed in the mauT, which 1 did "' " ' ^^"""^ ^^^'^ ^""^ ^'^ Q- Why did he applv to you ' «: w;:r ;rz: ™:r ''"" -^ "" ""• ^"-■* °"^» '"^-- A. Cooper, Fairman and Company. Q. You were employed by them ? A. No, I had an interest in the business. Q. What did you do ? A. Mr. Cameron came to Ouebec TTo nroo v, c told me it was impossible for him to 7L7^ \ ' *" '"'""'' ^"^ ^^^^ returned and A. I think he intimated that he was eoine- in T«.^ * . settlement with the Ontario Bank who htd a kL .. ^t ° ''^ ^°^ ^''' «^' ^" "^tain a Ontario Bank or something like th^ ^ ^' '^P""*^'* *« «««le with the Q. You need not go into the particulars of that. A. My next connection was I think T .nof ivr. at j the month of September I should t^ HftoS J." i^'^' ■" Q"^^«° -'»« 'in.e about negotiations with the company. He show.,1 m! f . ^"^ ^^^ossMo f.,r him to close stood it at the time, and an offer tfat hoT , ^de TZ^lf r 1^"'^"" "^ ''^ "-^- copy- of his figures. I don't think I had anv fur L! ' ' "^ '" "^''' ^^ ^"^^^ '"e ^ told me that he had ceased negotiations ^th "LtmpLv ''''" ""'*' "^^ ^""'"""'^ Q. Well ? pre.onco of Mr. Cooper when Jt MaodoJlH ,1. , , ■ ' '""'''' ""» '"'l"")' in the «ah,„., .„.,,„„ .,..r:r.;e°=r:i::i-if-irr^ Angus M. Tliom 653 should be of «onie value. Mr. Armstrong ma> have Heen me before that, but just about that time he presented me with a statement. Q. What date are you speaking of now? A. About the early part .,f March of this year. Mr. Armstrong presented me with a statement, . u.wing the hst of subsidies, engineers' certificates, .bowing the cost of building the road and told me what ir would cost to buy him out and what he thought the cost of buying out the shareholders would be. Q. Have you those figures? A. No Sir, I have not. Q. You say he gave you a written memorandum ? A. It was a pencil memorandum. Q. Which you have not kept? A. No Sir. Q. Have you kept Mr. Macdonald's figures ' A. No Sir. Q, Did you use them in any way ? A. No Sir, I never used them in any way. Q. Will you recall.the amount that Mr. Armstrong mentioned as due him ^ A. He did not say due him ; he said $180,noo would buy him out. He didn't say it was due him. I thmk he stated also that it would cost S65,000, to buy out the shareholders. illn vil!"^- i '? T !;'' ''T''^^'' ^'*^^ ^'- ^r^^^t^'-nK he told me that Mr. Mercier waa leaving lor England and spoke to Mr. Cooper about the matter, and that if he could make an an-angement with the Government he would go into the matter. I telephoned to Mr^Lafiamme asking him It he would make an appointment with Mr. Mercier, and Mr. Laflamme made the appointment. Mr. Cooper and I drove up to Mr. Mercier's house about Q. What date was this ? A. In the early days of March. Q. How long previous to his leaving for New York '? Ihr t '^J 7^;; ff"^""^- f'- laflamme asked Mr. Mercier if he wa, prepared to treat lor the Baie des Chaleurs matter, and presented a list of subsidies and a^ked him if that list was correct. Mr. Mercer said he had not the data with him just then and could not say, but It we would write a letter to him asking for this information he would repiv Q. Have you a list of the subsidies presented through Mr. Mercier's communication? A. No, bir, I have not. I could repeat them from memory, however Q. You might do so. .V ,'^-^J<'''«,^''^«W^^" acres of land, the value of which was $280,000 ; $2fiO,000 due on the last ^ miles; 150.000 on the b:i..g. cf Cascapedia; ^,000 from the Federal Govern- ment and an unpaid balance of ,).,rV, one thoueand and some odd hundred dollars from the federal Government, which is the to;,al list of the subsidies Q. Is that the $31,000 that ir.. Armstrong had already given credit for' A. He never gave credit lor ii. Q. Not it his statement ? A. It has not been oarn.^d. If it is on his statement I don't remember it Q. VVhat is the total amount of subsidies or payment,, that you mentioned ? A. .1 will have to add them up. Q. $585,000, isn't it ? 1-3 1 554 Angus M. Thorn -4 i A. Perhaps it is ; no, it is *fi85,000. Q. What followed, Afr. Thorn ? write'^hinf .tin "" '°lf "' *f '' ^f ''"' ™* ''''^'^'^' ^'^^ *^^ ^'"^""*«' *^"t ^^at if we would r Sniv ^hth , "" /^'.V^^J^^r'^*^ ^°"'^' '^"^^-'^^ it, and we did so and Mr. LaHanuue got a lepjy which he handed to mysell or Mr. Cooper. Q- U Exhibit No. 102 a copy of Mr. LaHamme's letter, to which you refer ? A. les, Sn: <-!• Is Exhibit No. 113 a copy of the reply received ? A. Yes, Sir, and I hold the original in uiy hands. Q. Then what took place ? thattp h?/' '^''••' T'T,"'"* *° '^'' ^^'- -^™«^°"g <^'"e to nie with a telegran, orstated inat he had received a telegram Q. Mr. Armstrong came to yon ? Mr P ■ ^^'f' \' ^'^^u "" '!'"'""' ™' " '^''*'''^°' "^ '-epresented that he had a telegram from Mr Pacaud asking that he and Mr. Cooper should go to New York ..see the ministers. mT Cooper ^vas unable to go at the time and Mr. Armstrong and I wenc to New York While O w/^ ? ' Brunswick Hotel about 11 o'.dock in the day Mr. Armstrong and L . ti- What day was that ? * A. I think ii, was about the day ..r the day before Mr. Mercier sailed Q. About the 13th of March V and;^"o?n'\rrr,T'^''^r^'''"'^'''^- ^r. Armstrong intx.Kluced me to Mr. Pacaud Mr. Langelier If they were ma position lo receive a proposition wuh rejcard to the Bale secuntv toTh! r ?' '""'^7'"' '"' ^'"- ''"'^'"^^" ''^''"^ ''"'' ^^^'^^^^ ^« ^"^^^ satisfactory tZ; ,r " "'™'"' ^ ^''''''°'' *° «"^'-'^*'^i" * proposition, but not just pv w m"; """"' ^°'"f "^'■' ""^' """'' "°' '"^ '''''' '• -""■= "me, but o. their reUirn hen r '^^^^'^^fd to receive any proposition I should »^e. Mr. Armstrong and I then lett lor Muntreal that same day. Q. Was that all that occurred? A. That was all that occurred at that interview. Q. When di.l you first becon.e aware that Mr. Pacaud waa intervening in this or anv previous negotiations m regards the railw:iv ? ' A. 1 heard it first from M,. Hect-r Cameron an.l subsequently from Mr. Armstrong. Maclmld / ^"^ ^""^'''dge ot the nature of his connection with M.. Cameron and Mr. A. No knowledge. Q. None whutever ? A. No Sir, nor of the nature of his arrangements with Armstrong in N?w S ?'"''''°" "^'"^ ' ' ^^'"''"' "' '''* ^°" '""'"^^^ *° ^"" "' *h« '"^-^^^'^^^ i" q"e«tion A. You mean with Pacaud? Q. Yes Sir. wn. f\l "'"' ''? ^""^^'^'ition with P«c»ud, but Mr. Armstrong and Pacaud retired while I was talking wruh the ministers. ouuou wuue i Q. For what purpose did yuu Buppfae vourself introduced » A. I presume.! Le was ., go-between between Armstrong and the Government. y. Wliafc ooe»«ioned you that belief ? Angus M. Thorn 555 h a telegram or stated ning ill this or anv iterview in question lud retired while I vernment . A. From what I had hea ,1, and also from knowing that a man does not work for nothmg. I supposed Armstrong was using him for some purpose Q. How far did you mix in that supposed position of his ' A. I had nothing to do with it one way or the other. Q. Had you any further conversation with Mr. Pacaud on that occasion? A. >o Dir. Q. Any conversation at all ? A. Not on that occasion. Q. Nothing passed between you save the matter of the introduction'' A. I believe that was all. Q. Did you see him subsequently in New- York ? A. Never. Q. Or discuss with him the question of this railway ? A. Never. Q. I would like you to state now what was the exact nature and extent of the interest which your hrm represented in this work. interest A. About *1'J,600. 0. Due by whom ? A. By MacFarlane, or rather the estate of McFariftnp ■ Si7 nnn„,„ i *i . MacFaHane and $2,000 and something odd by AiSong and G^^^^^^^^ ' "" "'^'^ °' Q. Who was Gervais ? A. He was a sub-contractor on the line. Q. I understand that your effort, up to this moment were addressed to putting the transaction in such a position as would result in your being paid this debt and C nder- stancb-outosay that you weie willing for that purpose to assume the compllnrf thl A. Provided I was satisfied with it as a business venture Q. Proceed? A. Returning from New York, I think I came to Quebec, but I am not sure If I did I only stayed lor a day, probably about the end of Mar^h T thini- t * ^ , ' h.„cl.,m or o™«ke .ome ,„.«„g.„,e„, with ,hem tteoueh „,J .olic" ,r in" hich^. ""[ nots„cco«l. I Id, Torcnto and procee.l.d back to Qnelto, and in QnebJ 1 nJlM, Q. Why or through what communication did you go to Mr. Pacaud ? A. I think I might have asked him to give me an introduction, y. Did you telegraph or write that you were coming' A. No Sir. Q. Did you send for him after your arrival ? A. It is possible I did. I was anxious to .ee Mr. Garneau and Mr. Ross Departmet;V '''"'^'' ""'"^'"^^ "'^'^"^^ ^'^ "° ^'^- ^--'l accompanied you to the A A don't think he did. I think he brought me up as far as Mr. Langelier's office - (fe 'f I ii 556 Angus M. Thom I know I had asked Mr. Pacaud for an introduction to Mr. Garneau and Mr. Ross, when I came up and saw M, Langelier. and subsequently I met Mr. Garneau whom I had met three or four years previously and then spoke to him. Mr. Garneau I believe arranged an interview with Mr. Ros... I had an interview with Mr. Ross, but that interview wa« mor. as to the location of the line and the possibilities of the road. Subsequently at another meeting I saw the .same gentlenun, Q. Where did Mr. Pacaud meet you ? A. Mr. J. C. Langelier's office. Then after spending some days looking into the accounts I made a proposition to the Government which they declined, and we had several interviews before the Orde.-in-Council of the 2.Srd was arrived at. Q. Fix the date, if you can, of this arrival in Quebec ? A. I think it must have been on the I6th : I am not positive. The 15th or 16th of April. in writingf ■ ^^'^ *^' '^ °^*"^ ^^'""^ ^°" "^"^^ ^""^ ""^'^ "^ '^^""^^^ ^^' ^"^^ Government A. Yes Sir. Q. Can you produce them ? A. No Sir. , Q, Why? A They were made in the St. Louis Hotel, and changed from time to time. I would meet the ministers and they would scratch their pen through some portion of my proposi- tion, and lead-pencil >n something else, and it kept on like that until we finally got to the iast one. The papers wore ail destroyed as they wont along, and new sheets written out. Q. What was the date of your first formal written communication to the Government ? A. I suppose it would be about the 17th I think, Sir. Q. Of April? A. I think so. Q. Do you refer to the letter which is incorporated in the Order-in-Council? A. Well, that letter may not have been written on the 17th. I think it is the 17th that 1 mean. Yes, it is the 17th, but the letter may not have been written on that day. Q. Why are yon in doubt as to the exact date upon which this waa written ? A. I had simply forgotten it. Q. You see the letter now ? (here letter in question was handed to witness ) A. Yes, Sir. Q. It was written on the 17th of March ? A. No Sir, Idon't think that letter waa written on the 17th. Q. Why not ? It is so dated. A._ Well, because my first letter was always preserved, and the alterations were made and this IS a growth from the first one. You see the date was preserved all through. That 8 not the date it was written on. Q. Then although dated on the 17th of April this is since then ? A. Yes Sir, since the alterations were made. The original was written on the 17th. Q. Then the completion of your negotiations occurred some days after the 17th of April Angvs M. Thorn 557 A. I think so. A. Ami you ante-dated your official letter ? A. The date of the letter wiis always preserved. Q. What followed the dnlivery of the letter? A. Tin; Order-in-Council. Q, How long after the delivery of this letter was the Order-in-Council paflsed? A. I think it would be two or three days. Q. You recollect that the dale of the Order-in-Council was the 21st of April ? A. Yes Sir, I think it was about th'i 20th or the.21st that I concluded the business with the Government. Q. Did you remain in Quebec ? A. Yes Sir, until the first of May I think. Q. Until the Int of May. And up to the date of the Order-in-Council what assistance had you sought during these intervals from Mr. Pacaud, and to what extent, if any, did he intervene between you and the members of the Government ? A. Not any. Q. By " during these intervals " I mean the interval represented by the date of your arrival and the delivery of your letter dated 17th of March? A. I never sought Mr. Pacaud's assistance in any way, shape or form. Q. Or saw him ? A. I may have seen him, but just casually. Q. Did you deliver any messages to him or receive any ? A. I never delivered any message or received any. Q" You state that you delivered this letter. For whom were you acting? For the syndicate. You state in this letter : " We are in a position to secure." To whom do you refer ? I meant by that that we could purchase the franchises of the Company. But whom do you refer to by the word " we " ? Those mentioned in the letter there— Mr. Cooper, Mr. Dawes, Mr. Ewing, Mr. Cas- sels and Mr. Williamson. Q. What authority had you from them ? A. Mr. Cooper's authority. Q. In writing ? A. No, Sir. 0- Why do you mention Mr. Cassels ? His name does not appear ir; the letter ? A. He is on the directorate now. Q. I was asking you for whom you were acting ? A. That is all. Q. Had you authority from him ? A. I had no communication from any person excepting Mr. Cooper. ' Q. Had there been up to that time any written agreement between those parties ' A. No, Sir. Q. Do I understand you to say that you had not in your possession at that time any written authorization with reference to these negotiations ? A. No. Sir. Q. Had there been any required of you ? A. Previous to closing the contract with the Qovernmei.'t they asked that I should get A. Q- A. Q. A. iJ ». imm > m 1 s 658 Angus M. Tliom Q. Have you a copy of tli;,t. telegram ? A. No, Sir. Q. When were you tirst asked ior that authority ? A. The day previous to that telegram would be the date. Q. Through your subaequiiu counection with the company had you become aware of the existence of any written contract o- agreement between these-gentirLnX«ename« you have mentioned co.nmitting them to this undertaking ? A. They are all qualified directors now. .e,e.S;,!.;''"vSt°? ;;:;;;::,:';"■' "■•" ™ "■"■•-1= »"»«» «- « "■« <■«. 0, .. A. Tliu understanding was v.rbal. That was my impression Q. Do I understand you to «ay that up to the date of the Order-in-Council thr ■ was n contract existing between these gentlemen a« regards the undertaking v A. Except the verbal contract. » . ^f .'f °.^- '''*.''''' telegram now shown you, as contained in the Public Works' record and state if that is the one to which you refer ? recora, and A. Yes, 8ir. \ Q. Read it. To the Hon. Mr. Garneau, Department of Public V/otka, Quebec. " Montreal, April 27th, 1891. _ Mr. Thom is acting under instructions from me and my associates, J. P. Dawes Alexander Ewmg and James Williamson, who will all become directors on the dxth of May (Copy of telegram fyled as exhibi. No. 124. (Signed) JAMES COOPER. " q. What followed, Mr. Thom? Where was Mr. Armstrong all this time ? A. He was in and out of Quebec. Q. Where? A. In Quebec ; He was here and away. Q. Were you working with him ? A. I WHS Sir. Q. When did you settle as to the terms by which you were to obtain the deli ver v of the franchises and works and rights of the old company ? delivery oi the A. I agreed upon the amount with the old shareholders on thelSth of March 1891 Sir Q, By written contract ? *»ii.", xoai, on . A. Yes Sir, by an option. Q. Which you produce ? A, Yes Sir, and fyle as Exhibit No. 126. Q. You may read it ? Angus M. Tliom 560 which I procured and at the date of >i c Works' record, and 4.pril 27th, 1891. ES COOPER. MoNTHEAi., 18th March, 1891. .James Cooper, Esq., Montreal. Dear Sir, Agreeably to your propoaition, I nmv statr that I am authorizoO on 1„ udf of the .hare- holders representing .s,.vcn-eighth8 of th, .stock of the Baie d.s ( ' . Ra.Iway Company tosign the followmg (h'claration: '"t"^"} Said .shareholders will transfer their rights to said stock at , nmo ^^■ithin a period ol forty clay.. Irom date hereof, provided the conditions and term.. ..greed upon between us be carried out witliin the above period. I am, Dear Sir, Yours very truly, L. .1. RIOPEL, Managing Director, B. C. H. Co. Q. Produce the contract containing the terms and conditions referred to in this letter'' A. 1 hey wer, ■ verbal, sir, $75,000 for seven eighths of the stock. Q. What aboi f the outstanding claims? A. The outstanding clain.s were p.ayable by Mr. Armstrong out of whatever money he received, that i.s, exceptmg whatever might be due to the estate MacFarlane Q. That of course would include he claims on the r, .ad due by the estate » A. les, Sir. Q. Apart froin the MacFarJune claim and the Aimstrong claim you were to obtain the transfer 01 the control of this company for $75,000 clear of all liabilities ? Was that the unders- A. No, Sir. We had to pay Mr. Armstrong. Q. That is not an answer to the question. Apart from the MacFarlane claim and the A. Yes, Sir. Q. And the arrangement you had made with Mr. Armstrong was to include a discharge, so far as you were concerned, of the MacFarlane claim. Is that correct ' A. No, Sir. Q. Who was to pay the MacFarlane claim ? A. The company. Q. Which company ? A. The present company, Q. The present company was to assume the MarFarlane claim? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Then you assumed the Armstrong and MacFarlane cl^im ' A. Yes, Sir. A No *Sir^"' "°"''"' ^""^ ^°" ^"^ '^""®" agreement with Mr. Armstrong ? Q. I understood you to say that you had not then arrived at a settlement with the representatives of the MacFarlane estate ? seiuement with the IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k A '%.<^. {'/ A /- .^ ^4^ V'.*^

^"^J^ imc Sciences Coiporation 4" i\ <^ 33 WEST MAIN STREiT WEBSTER, N.Y. 14S80 (716)872-4503 f >\7 # r i 560 Angus M\ Thorn "! if. ^^ i mk ■ A, No, Sir. Q. Was the figure as to the Armstrong claim settled upon definitely ? A. It has been now, Sir. Q. At that time? A. He first intimated that it would take $180,000 to settle his claim ; andsubsequentlv got him to take $17o,000. ^ ^ Q. At wliat date ? A. Sometime in April, Sir. Q. PreviouH to or after your completion of the contract with the Government' A. After, Sir. Q. Were you aware that he had made previous proposals as to settlement with the old company ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. At whiit figure ? A. I understood it was $75,000. Q. Was that the only figure of which you had become aware that he was ready to settle lor ? •' A. No, I have no positive knowledge ; but I heard after he was willing to — Q. At this time? ' A. Ob, no. I had heard from, I think, Mr. Macdonild that Mr. Armstrong was willinjr to take some figure less thflu $75,000. I cannot remember wliat figure it was he toid me It may have been forty or fifty thousand dollars, but I don't know, Q. You will explain why it was that being in possession of this knowledge vou were willing to give Mr. Armstrong $175,000 ? A. There was $280,(KX) added to it— to the position. Q. In what way ? A. The 800,000 acres of land had not been voted when Mr. Armstrong had made the first off-er; and when he came to me I intimated to him that he had offered to sell out cheaper previously. Q. Up to this time, either directly or indirectly, had it been intimated to you or had it come to your knowledge that Mr. Armstrong had, out of any sura received from you to oav any sum for other than legitimate business claims ? ■> ' f j A. No, Sir. Q. No knowledge whatever ? A. No, Sir. Q. No idea whatev r ? A. No idea. Sir. Q. You imagined that the $175,000 was to be for his own personal benefit ? A. Certainly, Sir. Q. What followed, Mr. Thorn ? Why did you remain in Quebec after the passage of the Order in Council ? A. After the passage of th% Order-in-Council Mr. Armstrong w.va forcing to get a settle- ment of his claim, and I was anxious that the Government should comply with the Order- in-Council and pay Mr. Armstrong the amount of his claim. Q. I would like you to proceed in order of date as to any correspondence which you had with the Government, not only your personal interviews and conversation* in connection Angus M. 7%om 561 lira ; and subsequently knowledge you were witli the m ittsr, but if correspondence intervened to tnb-o tKo „„ of date ? "ervened, to take the correspondence up in order A. Unfortuna^,ely our solicitor got some of our correspondence, y. Who 1& your solicitor ? f « vo. Q. What was your first letter after the 23rd April •> A. To be sure of ihe interpretation of the Order-in-Council. Q. Did 1 in any way seek to alter the terms of the Order-in-Council 9 O J;f "■/•"^P'^ ^" °^^«'- 'hat there should be no misunderstandtg Q. And as I understand it, Exhibit ITo Ifi nf i;b» Ho* tut ,,""*"»• (Exhibit is handed to witnessT ' " ^°''*" ' '"^'^ *° ^"^ ? A. Yes. A. That is a letter. Q. Have you it with you ? Q. It is for you to tell, Mr. Thorn. A. There may be, but I have no trace of it. Q. No record in your books at all ? A. No, Sir. &hiMtiro,S4,.nd....ei„wh»,eLd^XTuT "* " "O" ""««'. !>"'« Exhibit is handed to witness. A. I don't know, Sir. Q. It is not in yours? A. No, Sir. Q. D'd you ever receive it ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. You received it ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Read it please. 86 if 562 Angus M. Thorn iis:fi " Executive Council, Quebec. " Quebec, 27th April, 1891. " A. MoIntyre Thom, Esq., Quebec. " Dear Sir, "Referring to the letter of credit of $175,000 about which we had the conversation ''to-day, in the absence of the assistant treasurer it is not convenient to issue the same " before to-morrow. This letter will be issued to-morrow. The proceeds of the same will be " paid by the Government employee in accordance with the terms of the Order-in-Council " No. 237. Yours truly, P. GARNEAU. "^P. S. This sum of $175,000 will not bear interest between this and the 1st June. After the 1st June, interest at five per cent will be paid." Across the face of the letter is written : " This letter cancelled, replaced by others. P. G. " Q. Do I understand you to state that this letter was delivered to you ? A. I think this is the letter I had in my possession and returned to Mr. Garneau Q. Why? A. Because I waa tired of the whole scheme and wanted to go home ; and I returned him his letter. Q. Your statement does not agree in appearance with the endorsement across the face of this letter, Mr. Thom, as the letter states it is cancelled because it is replaced by others ' A. Yeq, Sir. Q. What others replaced it ? A. I don't know what he referred to. Q. What others replaced it ? A. I don't think I ever got another letter from him. Q, Is it usual for you to return letters of thia kind instead of answering th«.u, and saying you have withdrawn from the agreement? A. Yes, Sir, under these peculiar circumstances. Q. You notice that this letter of credit was promised for the next day ? A. Yes. Q. And you were leally In such tremendous haste that you declared you would throw up the whole agreement ? A. No, Sir, that is not the position. Q, What is it ? A. I am speaking of this day. I don't believe I returned it the same day. Q. Then, you must have returned it on the day this letter of credit was promised to you ? A. Yes, Sir. That letter was given to me, if I remember rightly, in the •vening. and in the morning I saw Mr. Gamoau with reference to these letters of credit, and he raised Home new ques- tion. I thought it was unfair on Mr. Garneau's part. Q. What was tlie question ? Angus M. Thorn 563 27th April, 1891. ae ; and I returned ig thuui, and saying would return me the bonds I had given him that T ^^.,i-i / ""» penecuy willing if he Q. You returned the letter ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did he return the bonds ? A. No, Sir. *■• «"'°«» "'"■ "-e Order in Council „ A. They were delivered, I had forgotten about it. It is stated in mv i«ff. t a . A. J don't remember the date. Q. Have you any copy of these letters ? A. We have a copy of these letters in the hands of our solicitor prodl^alf fhtletpeT '°"~- ^""^ ""* '" ^^ '^"^^^ *^^^ ^^ ^""^ ^e required to A. Tliere are copies of them here before the Oommission. Q. Have you any letter-book, Mr. Thom ? Q. You preserved no copies ? A. No copies, excepting what I may have made when I wa« at bnmo t ♦ i , . pencil copies and wrote them when I was at home *°°^ ''*^ Q. The copies of the letters are in the hands of Mr. Lonergan •> A. Yes, Sir. ' Q. I think it your duty to take immediate steps to secure them ? A. I will telegraph down this afternoon. Q. How did you obtain possession of half a million dollan, worth of bonds at this time ? A. Mr. Lonergan. our solicitor, arranged that with Mr Rinnpl «5;,v,r>i„ . *i Q. Do you recall thedate of these bonds ? A. The date? Q. They were unissued bonds of the old company ? A. Unissued bonds of the old company. Q. At what did you value them. Was there any par value put upon them ? 504 Angus M. Thorn iiii 11' f A. No ; it is hard to toll till the road is built what the bond^ are worth Q. At what money value did you estimate this security of half a million dollars worth of bonds at that date? A. From my standpoint, a great deal ; because we determined to complete the road • and once we determmed to complete the road I thought the bonds Q. At that date? A At that date I did not attach any great value to them without the contract was gone found m the Public Works record and state if it is the one to which you refer as notifying theGovernmentot the election of directors? (Exhibit is handed to witness.) A. Yes, Sir. Q. You may read it. " Montreal, May, 12th, 1891. " Hon. p. Garneau, " Commissioner of Public Works and Premier ad interim. \ " Honourable Sir, "I have the honour to inform you that at the annual general meeting of the share- ,. holders of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway held in Quebec on the 6th instant, conformably to Its charter, the followmg shareholders were elected directors of the Company for the " mT^ ^ w-;,"'""n ^T^t ^- ^- ^''^''' •^*'""'' Willamson, Alexander Ewing, Angus ^^ M. Thorn, Wilham Cassels, M. S. Lonergan. As a special act required the nomination of ^ seven directors, the last two names have been added in addition to the five already ^^ submitted to you. The company await the nomination of two members to be apppointed by your Government, which will be immediately confirmed by this Board. At the meeting ^ of the directors duly held on this day the following officer, were appointed for the ensuing year: James Cooper, president ; J. P. Dawes, Vice-President ; Angus Tliom Secretary Treasurer. " ' Q. Have the two nominees of the Government, so provided for by the statute been appointed ? j ^, ueeu A. No, Sir. A copy of the above letter is filed as Exhibit No. 126. Q. When had the gentlemen named in this letter as having been elected directors acquired the stock on which they qualified? A. They were transferred to them previous to the annual mdeting. Q. You will produce the stock-book and show that. (Witness produces stock-book.) The Witness. The transfers were on the 25th, sir. Q. Just read out the transfers. Begin with Mr. Cooper. A. Mr. Cooper's date in two years age. Q. Well, state it? ■dMm' 5 complete the road : the contract was gone , May, 12th, 1891. )y the statute, been m elected directors Angus M. Thom 565 A. M. S. Lonergan, April 2.5th, 10 shares ; William Caasels. April 25th, 10 shares ; James Williamson, April 25th, 10 .hares ; Alexander Ewing, April 25th. 10 shares; J.P.Dawes April 2oth, 10 shares; Angus Thorn, April 2;3rd, in trust, 4670 shares; James Cooper, at various dates, 530 shares ; Samuel Shackel, January 29th, 1886, 20 shares ; Robert McGreevy May Iflth, 1884, 660 shares ; the first lot. That is all. That qualifies all the directors. I will leave, it you wish an official list of the stock. Q. It is just what we have ? A. No, I think there is a difference. I think that would be short seventy shares what I have read. Q. What is the total number of shares ? A. 6000. Q. I make the total of the shares of which you have given the details 5930. A. That is what I thought. I now file a correct list as Exhibit No. 127. The seventy that are short are in my name. I have two accounts-one in trust and one in my own name. Q. What is the general nature of this trust, Mr. Thom, which you represent ? A. Held in trust for the gentlemen forming the syndicate at the time. Q. To whom do yt)u refer ? A. To James Cooper, James Williamson, J. P. Dawes. Q. All the directors ? A. All the directors. Q. Why were they not entered in their own names ? A. I was down ht. e and they were not at the time to take pocsession. Q. It has ever since stood in that way ? A. Everything stood there. Q. Have any of these gentlemen put money into the concern ? A. The company gets all the money it wants. Q. The company gets all the money it wants ? A. Yes, Sir, Mr. Cooper supplies the company with all the money it requires directors f' "'" "°* * ^*°* ^^^* *^^ °^^*''' ^^"'•®'"^" ^^""^ qualified by Mr. Cooper to act as A. Certainly. Q. They are nominally directors ? A. They are taking an active interest. Q. Did they have any monetary interest in the company ? A. The reorganization has not taken place yet. Q. What do you call the reorganization of the company ■> take"^" ^^^ '^*'''"'"''°" °^'^° ''°''^' *^^ allotment of the stock to decide which each shall this date '?^ anything further take place in the way of this re:)rganization up to or about A. Nothing further than that. Nothing that I can remember. Q. Have you the minutes of the meeting ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. I would just like to see the minutes. Before I reach this point, Mr. Thom. I would like you to shew me the stock transfer book in which these shares were transferred. Were thev ever accepted ? c.d v.icj Witness exhibits books.) 4 i fl'lf 666 Angus M. Thorn A. Yes, Sir, they were accepted. Q. All duly accepted ? A. All duly accepted. Q. Previous to the date of this meeting ? A Well, I would not say- probably Mr. Dawes' or Mr. Ewing's might have been accepted tlie next day. I would not say as to that. , ^ Q. What is the par value of those shares ? A. Oh, I would not.... Q. The par value ? A. Fifty dollars. Q. I must go back in order of time, Mr. Thorn, to aak you what you had to do with and how you were m.mediately concerned in, the issue of the letters of credit for $175 (^^ .f ,• t / T r'l ""P°r*^"^ t*^*' ^e should get on with the work. The Order-in-Council stipulates hat the privileged claims shall be paid by the 10th May ; and i w LL at the accoXaid "^ "^' ' commence operations; hence my anxiety to see that wifh^rlflrtn ^'"■]^ ^^''^fj^'' c^use of your connection : I ask you what the connection was with reference to the letters of credit. What did you do ? What caused you after having returned thi.s letter to Mr. Garn.au to in turn recall your decision v A. I (lid not. Sir. I gave him an option. Q. You handed him back his letter and said " I am done "? A. Yes. Q. Well, now you were not done ? ..nH ^'- ??' ^''', ^ ^-"^ '^''''f' "^ ''°"'' '^^^ "^'''^^ t'' P"* that on it ; but he turned round and said he would give the letters of credit. Q. But he said so in his letter? A. Yes. 0. Then this new suggestion of his intervened, which he withdrew? A. Yes. Q. And which you cannot recall ? Q. About this time where was Mr. Armstrong ? A. He may have been in Quebec. Q. About this time where was Mr. Pacaud ' Wm t??r;:en.i?"*'"' "" "^'"~ ' '"" "'"» """' '«'«"«">■■ *««' ^^P"" 23-d I .»w Q. For what purpose ? A. No particular purpose— met him casually. Q. Not in connection with this matter at all ? Mriot.' "'' ""^ '■"' ■°"'' *"■ "'"' '''°' '° «<•»"<"'«»» "i'l> the matto, but nolhing A. No, Sir, I never asked his assistance. Q. Did Mr. Armstrong invoke his assistance ? Angus M. Thorn 667 ig's might have been ut he turned round lething which con- r April 28rd I saw A. Mr. Armstrong pressed Mr. Pacaud, I have no doubt about that- pressed me to do all I could to get the letters of credit issued. Q. Were you present on the afternoon of the 28th April at the department ' A. Yes, Sir, I was there, and went down to the bank when one of the lettere of credit was paid. Q. Up to this time had you acquired any more certain knowledge in regard to the nature of this action of Mr. Pacaud ? o f, » A. After the 23rd April I had an idea that Mr. Pacaud was getting paid for his trouble. I had a suspicion. Q. After ? A. After the whole thing was closed, I had a suspicion he was getting some remuner- ation for his trouble, I did not know what it was. Q. I understood you to say you had that suspicion in New York r A. I had it there too. Q. You had no idea as to the amount he w«8 to get ? A. None whatever. Q. None whatever ? A. No. Q. And did not ask ? A. Did not ask, and did not want to ask. v Q. Who WM present that afternoon in the department when the lettere of credit were Sern^il" '^^"'^ Department on the 28th April about five or six o'clock in the A. Mr.Machin; I think Mr. Webb wa^ therfe and Mr. Armstrong I think, and Mr. Duhamel called in just casually, and I was there and left with Mr. Duhamel. I was away a considerable time and came back. I don't know who I went down to La Banque Natii S' .T> , H ^•1^^"^^°^'^ *h,ere and got this letter of credit cashed, or it was cashed. Alter tho letter of credit was cashed, I received of that money «71,500 from Mr. Armstrong. Q. Was Mr. Pacaud at the Department? A. I don't think so. Q. You did not see him there at all ? A. I don't remember seeing him. Q. Did you invoke Mr. Duhamel's assistance ? A. Not at all. Sir. aftpr^h^llr ^'7 '^''I't '" ^"'^'""1 ^""^ *^** ^'''' '^'■''^^^ ^'- I^'^hamel for his services alter the letters of credit were signed ? A. Probably, I don't remember. Q. Do you recall the incident, and if so, what the nature of the services were ? A. Mr. Duhamel rendered me no service that I am aware of. Q. And you cannot recall the fact that you thanked him ? A. No, Sir, I don't remember it at all. Q. You received seventy-one thousand odd dollars ? A. $71,750. deriv^e ffom'thlTarctL'n r" '"°"' ^""^ °^*'^ "'°'^ *'«"^'^' ""'■ ^^^^^"^ ^^ ^^ A. No, Sir. Q. Or that his whole benefit was to be $75,000 ? I 568 Angus M. Tham A. No, Sir. Q. You made no enquiry as to the dieposal of the $1(10 000 ' A. No, Sir. A. ^eVsJi.*^""' ^^^^^^^on of the whole of the proceeds of thin letter of credit ? Q. The whole of it ? A. The whole of it. Q. Did yo,. subsequently return any of it to Mr. Armstrong? A. Yes, Sir. *^ Q. In cash ? A. I returned him fourteen thousand dollan, or paid out for him in cash $14 000 Q. I am asking you if you made any return to him in cash •> A. 1 paid him various amounts. Q. I am not speaking of payments made on his account. For the mompnf T arv, i,-^,-*- ' rrCsti"" '■"" ■"" "'" ""^ °' *• '"""^' ■" « ♦^ "oSTSiTr "oS Q. At any time ? A. Yes, Sir ; I paid him $ 14,000. i. ou^on^Sr'S" ""' "'' """ ^°" """'"'" "■'" •^" "' ■•'-« «»' y" P"d A. Cash, and on his account too. ' Q. What became of the difference ? company'' ^'^"^" "'"'' '^""'""^ '°"T ^^'"'^'^^ ^^"* *° '^' shareholders of the old Q. For what purpose? A. For buying out their interest. A. No! Sif '"'' ^"' °^ '* ^° *° ""^^'"^ *^' "'^'°'' '^"^ ^^ '^' MacFarlane estate ? Q. None whatever ? A. Not a cent. Q. Or for paying any of the debts of your firm ? A. Not a cent. pay?hatr'^'' '""" '''" '"'"'^ *'"' """^"'^ ''''''''' *^^* ^« "^^'J ^ou 12,000. Did you A. No, Sir. Q. You left it still standing? A. Yes. Hold on I believe it was paid last week. That is Gervais' amount. Q. You were paid two thousand odd dollars ? A. Well, that was paid to Mr. Gervais last week, q. What benefit did Mr. Armstrong secure from' this transaction ? A. He secured the $75,000. Q. You stated you applied $60,000 to paying the debts of the old Company ? A. I simply borrowed it from him. Q. You said a moment ago you paid it out on his account ? A. Not the whole amount-$l4,000 was paid on his account. Angus M. Tlium 56y itter of credit? n cash f 14,000. Parlane estate ? Q. Why were the cheques for this $71,000 divided in the form in which they were-that IS, one for*31,7r,0; another for 124,000 ; another for «16,(J00 ; and an..ther for $1164.64, and iinothor fur *2,200? \. I tliink you exceed «71,r,00 by your question. Q. It may be. You spoke of *71,000, and I quoted you-I referred to $74,111.64, the proceeds ot this discount. A. The total amount that the Banque Nationale paid in the lir.,t instance was «71, 750. They reserved the balance to secure interest or somethini;. I i,ad nothing to d., with that arrangement. The rea>,on why they kept it back I don't know, but Mr. Armstrong handed me «71,750 divided up into $24,00r, and $16,000 at my request, in order that I might hand tlie cheques mthat shape to the old shareholders. The balance of $.ll,7oO I deposited to ray credit in the Banque Nationale, It was simply a matter of convenience Q. How did you pay the $6(VK)0 to the old shareholders? A. I gave them a cheque for $24,000 and one for $16,000. That is $40,000, and I have [iHid them $20,000 since. Q. Why does this cheque to the order of James Cooper for $2,200 differ as it does from the others? .-. ^ ^^T*' '"'^ !^^ ^"'^"''^ ''"^ '° '""'''' '^ "P *° *^^'^- Tl"^' i« what made it up to *^4,000. I came down to Quebec and asked Mr. Langelier for the balance of that money. IwasgoingdowntotheBaiedesChaleurs,andIaskedhimt0 8end it up to Mr. Cooper- and «t my request he sent it up to Mr. Cooper. ' Q. And it was applied in like manner? A. Yes. 1 .* ^; ^^V *^® 14]!\May' Mr. Thorn, unless I am mistaken, you addressed a further letter to Mr. Garneau, did you not? It appears by the letter contained in the Public Works record. A. I cannot say, sir. Witness is shown letter in Department of Public Works record, and answers : Yes, sir. The letter reads as follows : / ou $2,000. Did you Hon. p. Garnead. Q"'^^^^' ^^^ ^^'^ l^^l. Commissioner of Public Works and Premier ad --Uerim. Hon. Sir, « .^. "7'^^ f ference to my conversation with you to day re Baie des Chaleurs Railway and the demand of the Ontario Bank for information regarding the Order-in-Council accepted _ between your Government and the company, I would say that I fail to see in what respect they are entitled to receive the information in question. The only claim existing ^ against the company ,s that of the Estate Macfarlane, which is before the courts and "^erson^ "" °''' ^ *^^ '° J"'^'°® *^** "" information be communicated to any I have the honour to be. Yours truly, ANGUS M. THOM." Q. Up to that time it had not been publicly known that a contract existed between you and the company? ^ A. I don't know anything about that. T 670 Angus M. Thorn be k?ptt'cret" '" '""" ""''""« '^'"" *'^*' '' ^^ ^^'^ -» a-k that the matter should o ■ vv*ii"!k^'^° !^'"" "'■ ^''^ ^''^"'" '" ^^""-^i' l«Pt secret, y. Well, that IS the terms of your contract, is it mt' A. \e8. Sir. I did not know that it whs a secret though A. «ecau8o the Ontuno Bunk was attacking the company, y. Ihat was the only reason ? A. That WHfl the only reawon Q. Where? by Mr. G:™:"rmTro«,,e,i ■I;:'' ' ™ "" ■-"""« "» ™™'°' -' ■^"™^". «»^ >-« A . ""'sir °" *°' "" °*°"' "' "'■ """'■""■• '"'«' ^ y™ °f ''•'^ «', I8,h M.y ? Q. How is that ? A. It must be with the solicitor, Sir say i^youtl'ed 17" "' ''^^ ''"" "*'""* '°' " ^«""^' ^ '^^ ^"^>1- ^orks record and Witness takes communication of copy of letter B-iel/itu,, ™r.; Zpl';.° """ "°"' ""' C---"" ".Public W„k. u,.hs Copy of this letter is filed na Exhibit No 129 A. I have a letter-book here, but it does not begin as early a^ that. y. You were dealing with pretty bg matters, Mr. Thom ' Q. And Mr. Lonergan is gone to the States ? A. He is away ill. He will not be long, but I will telegraph him. but tt reCl'biS;?wTh;r^^^^^^^ ' ^'^ '^^ *'^°^^"^ '-P-^^^'- - ^^- ^o-ergan ; A. I was not aware he was going. Judge. Q. You were awere you were to be called. Q. Do yo„ know .„y,hi„g „f . ,„„, „f a, 5,, j„„, ^^^^ A. Not from memory, no, sir. vjarneau . Q. Look at Exhibit No. 21, a letter addressed by you to Mr. Garneau. Angus M. Thorn I that the matter should 'aait by appointment ? n on Mr. Lonergan ; u by Mr. Garneau ; 611 (Exhibit 18 handed to witness.) A. Yea, sir, that was addressed by me to Mr. Garneau. It reads as follows Quebec, June 6th, 1891. Hjn. Pierre Garneau, Commistioner of Public Works, and Premier ad interim. Sir, In view of th.t fact that the first 60 miles of our railway will cost to repair conside- rably more than was represented, and inasmuch ns the costofbuil.ling the miles 60 to 80 on account of the m™ber ofexpensive steel bridges, heavy cuttings and rock work will cost nearly twice as much to construct as the miles 60 to 100 which from surveys actually made proves to be through an absolutely flat country, the company therefore desire that ou ot the */,000 per mile payable on the last 20 miles, that is, 80 to 100, 13,500.00 per mile be applied and made payable on miles 60 to 80, making the subsidy of 1200 000 payable on the last 40 miles as follows when earned : . «ionSrf^>,'°,fK °"^^""''''''*^"^."^"'^^ *^°"''*"'* ^''"'^'•'' («190,0()0) of which amount 11-0,000.00 shall be paid on completion of the said twenty miles to the satisfaction of your engineer, and the balance, namely, seventy thousand dollars (170,000) shall be paid two months alter said completion, miles 80 to 90, thirty five thousand dollars on completion m.les9ato 100, «3o,000 on completion. A readjustment of the subsidy in ,he manner above mentioned would be m(,re correctly apportioned to the cost of the work to be per- lorraed on the deferent sections, and would entail no further cost to your Government. We therefore respectfully ask that your Government consent to the change in payment Itl M i"^ ^ * '^ described, and should you desire further security in addition to that now held by you to guarantee that the road shall be completed to Paspebiac, we will deposit with you a hirther sum of two hundred thousand dollars of the Company's bonds on pay- ment to us of the last seventy thousand dollars ($70,000) of the one hundred and ninety thousand dollars ($190,000) which we have asked you to make payable on miles 60 to 80 said bonds to be returned on completion of the railway to Paspebiac. I have the honour to be Your humble servant A. M. THOM, Secretary Treasurer Bate des aiateurs Railway Co, Q_ Can yon, in a word, give us the additional money benefit which this proposal would have brought the company ? '^ A. It would just place me in a position that I could Q. But I want it in plain figures ? A. It would enable me to complete my banking arrangements. i 572 Angvs M. Thorn 1- it intasl!"'! ''T''' ? f T '■'°'" "^"^ ^^^'^°" *° *he other. That is all, sir. I dida't ask It in cash , I only asked to have it transferred from one section to the other. Q. Was that proposal accepted or refmed ? A. It was accepted, Q. Accepted, as I understand it, by letter of 10th June of which Exhibit 22 is a copy > A. Yes. Sir, I think that is a copy. ' Q. Have you the original with you ? A. No, Sir. Mr. Lonergan has it. rent ni Jtttio"nstid rJn7'T'^? "^^^^^ '^ ^^'^ "^'^^ «ft- diffo- Tthe S o the rov "f ^^^^'J'^g °" yo"-- part of the position of the company and Sie 23rrrDdl ^L rr !?' ''^'' ^"^ '■'•^"''*'^' '''' ^°"'^^''' ^^^ been concluded on ^^.t^^::::^^- -;t:is„ ^s:^ - - — ^^rious .. A. ^othing further than I wanted it for my own benefit. I wanted it and asked for it tions^willLGot^i^l^LT""*''"'^^^^'^^ ^'^ ^"^ °^ "•^«°^-*^«-' -^ --ersa. A. Not a word, sir. ' Q. You a«ked for it and got it ? A. I asked for it and got it. Govetmrtf ''"'"'""^'" *'*' '"" -bse.uently a.ked by way of addition from the A. That is the only request I have made, Sir Quebec, 16th June, 1891. A. M. Thom Esq. Secretary Treasurer Baie des Chaleurs Railway Co. Quebec. j Dear Sir, of the seven thousand doZ^.70oSrpfXp\r^^^^^ ^ ^r'^' ^^^' ^'^^^ three thousand five hundred dollars ?S «K , °"/^«J?f*: *^«"ty ™>le8 (80 to 100) Angus M. Thorn 678 real additional amount Exhibit 22 is a copy ? of addition from the ; No. 22, of date the 16th June, 1891. I efore they shall have been commenced, and this in order to give you additional assistance to build miles 60 to 80, and I understand you to request that on the completion of miles 60 to 80 there shall be paid to your Company one hundred and twenty thousand dollars («120,000), and two months after the said completion the further sum of seventy thousand dollars ($70,000.00). As regards the last twenty miles you desire that thirty five thousand aollars be paid on completion of mile 90, and the balance of I3o,00() when the one hundred miles shall have been completed, the Government agrees to the foregoing requests, but on the express conditions : — Ist. That no portion of the said railway shall be hel J to have ;been completed until a favorable report shall have been made thereon by an engineer on behalf of the Government as to the condition of the road, the equipment and the bridges. 2nd. That as a guarantee that the road will be completed to Paspobiac, there shall be deposited with the Treasurer of the Province previously to the payment of tlie last $70,000 on the completion of mile 80, two hundred thousand dollars at par value of the Company's bonds, equal in value to those already deposited with the G . rnment. The foregoing conditions of your letter of 5th June instant having been subnuit.-d to my colleagues of the Executive Council, they entirely approve of the same and authorize me to write you as above, agreeing to your proposals. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your humble servant, P. GARNEAU, Commiadoner oj Public Works and Acting Premier. Q. This is the answer which you received to your proposition of tho oth June ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. I suppose up to this time no opportunity has occurred to give effect to your proposal ? A. No, Sir. Q. Have you rect. ;d anything in execution of this proposal by the Government ? A. No, Sir. Q. When will it go into effect do you expect ? A. I dont think it will ever go into effect, I think we will build the road before we ever ask the Government for a cent. The Commission then adjourned till 10 o'clock in the forenoon of Friday the 30th instant. J. BlfeLANGER, Clerk of the Commission, I I fl '! i v' I f I ROYAL COMMISSIO]^ CANADA, Province of Quebec Diatrict of Quebec. 15th SITTING mJyZT' *'' '°'^ ^"'"''''' '° '^' ''"' °^^"^ ^'"^ '^' thousand Present : eight hundred and The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. Jett6, President. „ "^ I^uis FRAN501S Georges Baby, Charles Peers Davidson, Mr. Hall :— Commissioners. Before the Commission proceeds to the hearing of evidence I be^ fo «nv th., t i, put in writing an application, which I think covers all I.p annlilr T^ u^ ' ^''''' telegrams and statements of the banks required applications for cablegrams, First, we desire that an order be served on the Great Nnrf h Wo ♦ rr, , pany and also that an order be issued on the Canadian Ri^iSTelegraTcomZT? ""Z cables and telegrams exchanged between the Hon. Mr. Mercier amf theHon M r ^' Hon. Mr. Langelier, Ernest Pacaud and .J. A. Mercier di^i, Hhe month»^f a ^ S'™'""' V,e also desire to verify deposits made in the bank ; more nartirnlftrlv fi,n r ■ ifbra. Ifr. Justice Jetti .-— Do you specify those you want ? Hon. H. Mercier d eight hundred and 676 Mr. Hall:— No, Your Honour, but from the account I think there are very few. We do not ask for the discount shps, but for the deposit slips of the Bank to verify them We also wish an order issued on Mr Dumonlin fnr fi,^ ,iJL„ * i- • ., ^ J/r. BHque: — I would suggest that my learned friend complete his document by indicating th« deposit slips that he wants, and leave it till 2 o'clock that I may see it '"^•^''^^"g ^^e Mr. Hall:— There are so very few of them. Mr. BHque : — Just so, and it is so easy to indicate them then. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetle :— We may point them out in the order. I '; I Commissioners. ^^™^HOXOUEABLE MR. MEHCIER again appeared and continued his deposition . o^ru ^iirrri;^:^ r;i:2'sr "^^^^^^ "^" '-'' ''- ^° — ^ house ontrst. F\yTR::f Tha^be™^^^ f^ "^'T '"''' ^^ ^^^ *° ^^« isters since that tinfe. it will be a fortnLht trm^^ t'" ^"^ ^''" ^ ^"""'^^ °f *^i"- house a few minute; bSe the sS™ ^TTT^^ Robidoux came to my forgetfulness on my part ^ "'' '''""''" "^"^ *^^* ^« «^* *"g^'her. It was I believe that I also stated in one part of mv evidencp that Mr t o • my hou.e when the promissory notes were sZed and k or on T ^^"T*,^"' P''''°' "' were there and did not name Mr Tnnri J m t • ' ""'"^'^ '*'« P^^^ns who .. .tote .h., h, ,eft 1 ri^aVS oT.;„" ■ ':X Z 2?^ f "'' h'T ''""™'"* ■h.. he w« .. s.. H«i„.he o„ .he .eve..h f^:^:^:,^^:^ ^nZ'Z" Hon Mr. Justice Jettf. .•— Our impression is that that is what you said yesterday. Hon. Mr, Mercier : — I wish to have no misunderstanding on the point. 57(i L. C. Marcoux Nort' as to my cheque for three thousand five hundred dullors ($3,500.) I stated that I must have had funds in the Caisae d'Economie when I maJe that cheque because it had been accepted. I had offered to show my pass-book to the Commissioners, I had not added It up; It is not added in the book, but I had not a sufficient sum to meet that cheque for three thousand five hunlred dollars ($3,500,) on the fifth, the day it was accepted, but it was understood with the bank that my cheques should be accepted even if the account should be overdrawn beyond two thousand dollars ($2,0(10) ; it was accepted and a day or two aiterwards as may bo seen by my pass-book I made a sufficient deposit before leavinjr for Eurf)pe. L. C. MARCOUX S. oretary-treasurer of la Caii-se d'Economie Notre Dame de Qu<^bec again appeared and continued his deposition as follows :— By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. On the fourth of March, eighteen hundred and ninety-one, when Mr. Mercier's cheque fur three thousand five hundred dollars was presented to the bank, were there sufficient funds lo Mr. Mercier's credit to meet that cheque ? A. The cheque was only presented and paid on the fifth ot March; there were not sufficient funds ; I ascertainel that on reference to the iiccount ; that is why I put my initials on it to authorize the overdrawal, and that overdrawal was refunded some days later. Q. Will you state what was the amount ul' this overdrawal ? Mr. BHque : — I beg my learned friend's pardon, but I do not think that he has a right to go into those details ; I do not see what interest there is. Mr, Casgrain : — I am obliged to say that I intend trying to go further, I will now return to the question of contingencies. My instructions are that these moneys were contingencies of Mr. Mercier's department I will try to prove that. Mr. BHque : — That is another question, we have no objection to that. Hon. Mr. Justice JeU& : — We are at present of opinion Mr. Casgrain, that you do not seem to have shewn that you have sufficient interest to know the amount of the deposit of the overdrawal, which might have taken place in Mr. Mercier's account at the Caisse d'Economie. The fact you mention, however is altogether pertinent, and if you show that that deficit or overdrawal whatever it be was afterwards covered by public funds, then there is no doubt that you' can make that proof: your question may come later. Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Now, Mr. Marcoux, when was the deposit after the fifth of March made? A. The deposit was made on the eleventh of March. Q. By whom ? jynyAiriAw, jiljlaffltite f. -im L. C. Marcotix 577 btre Dame de Qu-^bec right to go into those Q." By ''iT-'\'"^ " ''^""^ " ^''"'''■^ ^'''''' ^'' ^- ^" I believe. A. I believe that it is " A. L. " Q. Have you the deposit slip here ? A. I did not bring the deposit slip; I merely referred tn if hof^rn 1 -e to give this information ^ ° '' ''^^"^^ '«*^»"K »" CMe, I would iiave to gi the Sth"^" '"' '^""^' "^'^ ^" *'^ ^^-'^"^^^ °^ ^^-^^ efficient to cover the cheque of A. It was more than sufficient, there remained a balance Q. Do you know the writing on the deposit slip in question ? A. No, ..r;Ido not know it at a.,, the writing of the person who signed the deposit slip, per A.- L^''" It L'rt^be'at^'^^'^" '''' '' ' ^^^ ^^^ «^^*«^ ^ «*«-d " Honor. Mercier Q. Were deposits afterwards made in Mr. Mercier's namt ? ^^^^ A. Oh yes, cheques for his salary, Mr. Mercier's salary was depoeit^l every month as Q. Besides the cheques for salary ? Mr. Btique : — I do not see what reason the learned oonnaol nor. i,„„ r ^ . . the Honourable Mr. Mercier's accouT ' ^°' '"*'""« ^°*° '^' details of Mr. Casgrain : — My reason is very simple, I have already stated it If I nrovfi fh.t .k- money belonging to Mr. Mercier, but public monercVmorvJ^l """""^ ^^ °«* by Mr. Pacaud and that it was out of that thTt the fiv« ^T^ 7i^',f """" ^^^"^'^^^ *^«'« to send to Mr. Mercier. ^^^ ^^^ thousand dollars (15000) were takpn Mr. Biique:— There is a very direct way of proving thaf • th.^,.^ i. „ gencie. that was shewn by tlL evWen^addt'eJ yL,^ 1'" "°'"^k *'^ ^°°""- and you will be allowed to trace the disposal mad JS theTo'ntW^'^^^^^^^ '"^ ^"'"'"-^'^ Mr. Casgrain :— I am not obliged to follow the way indicated },v ,v,„ i ^ , • proof; if I took the measures he su JeTts I do nn. h^r^ T'""^ ^"^""^ "» '"^king my believe I should take those I L7at Id a„d wh 0^1^^- T'^ T""^^" '''^ -^'' •' production of the deposit slip of which Mr mLco^x Lt spoken "' ''""• ' "'" ^"^ *^« Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— That would be proper. By Hon. Mr. Justice JettS :— Q. Can you state, Mr. Marcoux. bv whom ♦Viofri^.r,^ :* , . just said the initials seem to me to be '^AL-'^ ""^ ™^' ^"^ A. I am under the impression that it wan Mr t «.„» t. to got Mr. Mercier's pass-book balanced ' ""^^ '"^'»« P^«"y «ften to the office 37 578 L. C. Mdrcovx By Hon. Mr, Mercier : — Q. One of my secretaries. A. One of your secretaries, I believe ; but there is no signature, only " A. L." By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — Q. Who was the employee of the Caisse d'Economie who received the deposit ? A. It was the teller, Mr. C6t6. Q. Do you think he could tell who made the deposit? A. Idonot know ifhe would remember, he receives so many deposits; but according to the writing of the deposit slip Mr. BHque : — We can say who was the person who made the deposit, it was either Mr. Larue or Mr. Lacroix, who ere both secretaries of Mr. Mercier. Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — k • Mr. B6ique. have you any objection to the production of that deposit slip ? Mr. BHque : — It id more for the principle than for anything else. We intend to ask for the examination of the person who made the deposit and I have no objection to the placing of the deposit slip before the Commission ; but there have been so many attempts which appear to us to be indiscreet on the part of these gentlemen that it seems to be our duty to make the objection which I do. Mr. Caagrain : - We are here for the purpose of being indiscreet. Mr. BHque : — We are very determined to make the proof necessary to rebut anything that may result ■ from the insinuiitions which have been made respecting this attempt to make that proof, but only we wish as much as possible to keep the proof. Hon. Mr. Justice Jettl : — Wo believe that the question should be suspended in the meantime. Mr. Caagrain ; — Very well. Your Honour. By Mr. Amyot : — Q. This deposit, after the cheque for three thousand five hundred dollurs ($3,500), was made in a regular way ? leposits; but according Ang'uit M. Thorn 5*79 A. Doubtless. h« make, rogul»,ly, which he »rmteL fnT. ^ , / °°°"'" """■ » ''"P""" "''i* And further the deponent saith not ' "'' ^'P°''*» ""' ""'=«• ,1 was either Mr. Larue d dollurs ($3,500), was ANGUS M. THOM, secretary-treasurer of the Baie dPs Phal^,,,. « appeared and continued his deposition as follows:- company, agf.ln By Hon. Mr Justice Davidson :— Ar2rZ^,n7S£'^ '"'"'' " "'^* '''''''' °' '--^-'« o^J-t had youin paying Mr. A. It was the best bargain I could make with him. Q. The best bargain you could make with him ? A. Yes, Sir. Q, Well, was his claim standing in a different nr.«it;on fr««, ♦v, . • contractors? « ainerent position from the claims of any other A. Certainly. Q. Why ? A. It was essential that I should have his titlp hofnr^ t .,., u do anything on the line. ^ ^ *^""^ commence operations or Q. What titles ? A. The titles which Armstrong held. Q. What were they ? A. His contract and his lien on the road. Q. His contract was public property, was it '»nf an for o= u* • • concerned ? ^ ^' °*' *° '^^'^ **« obtaming a copy of it was, A. Oh, yes, but I wanted the cancellation of the contract. Q. You mean his rights ? , A. His rights, yes. Q. What possession had he of the road ' W. t .VX."' "' "" '""■°"'°"' •""'"' '" ' """' *" "'• M-F.r,„e „.y h„. J* 680 Angus M. Thorn A. I think there were some small amounts duetosub-contraotors— small amountu— not to any largo extent. Q. Practically, the only two claimants, as contractors, of any importance were Mac- farlane and Armstrong ? A. Yen. Q. Now, you say that Mr. Armstrong was in possession of the road 1 A. Yes, Sir. Q. My that expression what extent of road do you mean ? A. Armstrong was in possession of the forty miles that he was yet to build, that is under his contract he had that right. ' Q. What forty miles ? A. That we are building now, Q. het us know what lorty miles. You say " we are building now." • A. Well, from 60 to 100. The other 60 miles the title was disputed ; Armstrong was claiming possession and MacFarlane was claiming possession. That case was in court and it was decided in favor of the company ; so that Armstrong's title was the proper title to the road. Q. So that you considered Mr. Armstrong, as the principal contractor under the old company, in possession of the road from the 60th to 100th piile, and he had possession over MacFarlane of the first sixty miles ? A. Yes, sir. Q, Do you know the date of Mr. Armstrong's contract with the company ? A, No, Sir, Q. Had you read it at that time ? A. Yes, I read it once. Q. Do you think you would be able to point out now any clause in that contract which in April, 1891, gave Mr. Armstrong any rights in tlie possession of that road ? A. I think that is the tenor of the whole contract. Q. Have you a copy of this contract '! A, No, Sir. Q. Nor in the possession of your company ? A. They were in the possession of the company. Q. Where is it now ? A. I think Mr. Riopel has got it. Q. \A'ould you be surprised to Itarn that in this contract appears the following expres- sion : " The said company shall be placed in, and shall take possession of said road on the said 1st day of .July 1888 " ; and again, " In the event of the whole of said road not being completed on the said 1st July, 1888, the company shall have the right to take possession of said road and all its appurtenances with tools <&c. " A. Am I surprised to know that that is there ? Q. Yes. A. No, Sir, I know it was there, Q, Did that not give the company the right of possession from the first July 1888 ? A, Not without a lawsuit. Sir. Q. Did you consider a lawsuit sufficient cause for making this settlement with Mr, Armstrong ? A, No, Sir; I was anxious to go on with the work. It was imperative that I should have immediate possession of the road. An^s M. Tlioni 581 et to build, that is, A. Yes, Sir, that was in court at the time "».h ..>60.h mile, to bo b„i,. ,U„ „„ Ippu, .e,lir:'b« „„g " , t ^^^^^^^^^^ 'JZ^^ A. I was awaro of that. .^J^Z::^ "■' "'""' "" '°""' «'" °' "^ «'"■» M"F„,.„e „igb. b.v, A. Yes, Sir. Q. Wliat was it ? A. They claimed $180,000 and the company claimed .hey did not owe them anything, y. Iney still claim it ? •'a A. They still claim it. Q. Did you endeavor to make any aettlemait with MacParlane ? A. No, Sir. Q. I understood you to say you did with the Ontario Bank ' A. I approached the Ontario Bank, but nothing through MacFarlane Q. MacFarlane's claim waa in the hands of the Ontario Bank ? A. I was simply trying to purchase the Ontario Bank's claim • ,.n,1 fK„f i^ • me control of the MacFarlane Estate. * '^''"'^ ^ive Q. So you did it to make a settlement with MacFarlane ? A. In that way . ^.^.^Q. Well, having paid Mr. Armstrong this amount of money, did he deliver you posses- A. Yes, sir, he gave me all the possession he could give me. Q. But did you obtain possession ? A. We obtained it about a month after. A. IX """'*""'" """"* '""' "''"^"^ '' «^^^ ^™ P«-^«*- or the road ? Q. What difficulty intervened ? A. MacFarlane's claim on the road, claiming the riehf fo r»t<,;T, Tv, paid his claim. ^ ^"' *° '^'**" *he road until he was Q. Did you find that opposition effective for a time ? A, For a time, yes. Q. When did you obtain possession of the road ? • A. June 13th I think the date was. Q. You communicated this fact in a letter to the Departmrn' did you not ? i i. I .^ 582 Angus M. Thorn ■J. r\ A. Yes, Sir. Q. Of what (late ? A. I l.ave Bot tlie letter, the 29th June, I think. Yes, Sir, the 29th Jure appears m the Pnhlic Works record. I file a copy a« Exhibit No. 130. Q. Read it please. The original Quebec, 2itth June, 1891. Hon. p. Gakneau, Ccmmissioner of Public Worka and Premier ad interim. Sir, YnnlT !"'l!r '^f^\ ''^*^/ "1°'^"'' '"'"^'^"^ '''•°'" ^''^ -on'Pany's lawyer, Mr. Lonergan lou will doub e«8 be pleased to hear that the curts have given us full pc^session of the railway ..nd rollmg stock for the purpose of enabling us togo and complete the road without further delay. Is ow that this very essential point is gained, we will at once start the contractor and complete our portion of the agreement without a moment's necessary delay tv, ^^,^''g;^^^'"^^'i"fe'*o'"fnti«" the fact that notwithstanding your assurance to the etfect that 'he Government had placed sufficient funds at Mr. La^>gelier's disposal to pay ihe debts of the old company he has been compelled for want of money to return to Quebec, thus causing a great deal oi disappointment to th. unpaid laboren. and priviliged claimants, and I assure you that the delay will cause the company a grnat deal of trouble that could have been avoided had payments been made promptly. I therefore trust that you will instruct the Treasury Department to place sufficient funds at Mr. Langelier's credit at once. I have the honour to remain, Your obedient servant, A. M. THOM, Sec'y Treasurer Bate des Chaleura Railway. Tlie judgment contained in the Public Works record, of which a copy is now filed is the judgment referred to. Copy is filed as Exhibit No. 131 ,-n .>?'p^n-^ t" I""'"'"' i'"^' °*'^''"'' *° ^'- Garneau.of date October 6th, which appears m the Public Works record. h^-cuis A. Yes. Sir. (Copy of said letter is filed as Exhibit No. 132) It reads as follows :- MoNTitEAL, October 6th, 1891. Hon. p. Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works, Quebec, P. Q. Dear Sir, I have been requested by the directors of this company to ask you to kindly forward me at your first convenience a statement in detail showing the different amounts paid by tir is . is ■ I Angus M. Thorn 58S 1 June. The original , 2!ith June, 1891. tober 6th, 1891. J. C. L«"KeIier Esq ns commissioner, in accordance with Onler-in-Council No. 237. I underHtand that he hr.. on hand some *70,0(J0 and that all the debts of the old company mentioned in the Ordor-in-Council are paid excepting about «40(K>. ^vould therefore ask that you retain Huttic.ent to pay the above claims and hand the balance to our company as provided for in the Order-in Council. %'^!^:'T^'^''^,\^^'^''^l''^'^^^ 'he Federal Govern- ment (copy ,,f which I herewith enclose you) you will perceive by claune " A " that the "Zl^lffr /' r""" ' «"\P-'"--'''^' "ght, having priority over all mortgages! charges &c., for such claims as may be entab^ishe.! by final judgment, agreement or arbifra- Z Iv 1^ Tl:^^"T"^^l''^ '"'' ''''''' "^"°'"'« P^"*^^''^'^ '■- ->' -^ -cry cla[m that may be established; which being the case it would be manifestly unfair to deprive us any longer of the unpaid balance in the hands of the Government after providing for the claims above reterred to as apart from any claim that the estate may establish, the com- pany are free from any liability. ,1^1. I have the honour to be, Your obedient servant, A. i\I. THOM, Secretary- Treasurer, ■ f ■/■^w"k ^ '^"^''J^ *'"" above, I have ascertained that our charter has not yet been printed with theameminients authorized by the Senate. I therefore send vou the charter^ l?7l It: otclir "^""^ ^"'^ ''' '--'-'' '^ ^'^ -"- --^ -^-que^tlT Q. Did Mr. Garneau answer that letter, and if so. when ? A. Yes, Sir, on October 8th. The letter reads as follows : L. E. 1571. L. R. Xo. 8&5 " " " 653 Department op Public Works, Quebec, 8th October, 1891. A, M. Thom. Esq., Secretary- Treasurer. Of the Baie des Ch?>.leur8 Railway C'y-, Montreal. Sir, ?r!u'' t"'',""'^'^''^^ '^''^^P* °^ y^""" '«"«"• «<■ *he Cth inst., enclosing a copy of the bill parsed by the Parliament of Canada during its last session at Ottlwa respecting your railway dated the nth September la^t, and containing the amendments authorized by the Senate and subsequently adopted by the House of Commons \:> "i^^^er. I beg to state that as soon as Mr. J. C. Langelier, the special commissioner in re claims on your railway shall have submitted his detailed statement of all the paymente he has made to date out of the funds that have been put at his disposal by the Tre2"er of the Department here on account of the converted land subsidy of $28t) 000 mentioned in th« ^:::::^:::^^:^^^ ^.j^r ' '^' r^^-' ^^^^'^« corrC^dLTvoucC^ I i I- 6H Angus M TJum n„» nVn' ^""' r?,"""^".'^^ 'mpreasion •' tl.a Mr. Lan^elier has on hand some $70 m out of tha san^ ^u^Wy, nnd tlmr all the del-ts uf th. dd o., ....any mentioned inThe 0"^ m-Counnl are paia ..^,. ,n. ^.OOO." Allow n.e to renmrk , .t Mr. Lang lor hal r^^^^^^^^^^ on the whole Irom the W., ror only *41,500, which he stated lately tfha ro/hau t »l/o,(M»U paid to Mr. C. N. Armstrong on the 28th April Inst As to your request to remit to y(,ur company the balance unpaid in the hands of the fnfZr n" I" "'7' '"'"l -.■^«'''J'-'^'^- P-viding for the unsettled clfms I b g t nform you. that your demand will receive the consideration of the Governmer.t ^nd I w let you know what will be its decision on the subject matter. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, P. GARNEAU, Commissioner. Q. Did any later decision of the Government reach you with respect to this matter' A 0, Sir. ' Q. uad you any further correspondence with the department. A That is the last letter, I believe. Sir. the Government' '^' ""''' ^'"''' ""^ *'''^'''"' ''^''^ ""''' in u changed between you an.l tooktlali'sif ' ^'"''' *^°'' ^ ''"'' '''"*'''^'^ *"^ *''' ^ ^*^« '''^ *"-^''y ^'•^ «" that T f>,i?w°" °^f '""^ permission to remove from the Senate record a number of cheques. I think your subpa.na called for their production here. Have you got them ? A. My subpoena does not, but I brought them. (Cheques are filed as Exhibits 134a to 134t inclusive). an .?■ ;«"PP°«^V**'"-'r'«'."'y'^"'»'«o""ticedthat in the MacFarlane contract there was an absolute transfer to him by Armstrong of all rights in the subsidies coming from^ t^^ted to buld^"""^ «overnn.ents ns regarded that part of the line which he' had co' - A. There was a transfer of certain subsidies. f*v,^" ^°?;;.^'^y«"P™P«f to deal with this difficulty with respect to obtaining possesnoi of the subsidies so absolutely assigned to MacFarlane ? possesBioi, A. By paying MacFarlane any claim he may establish. Q. But in the meanwhile ? if thet ItlTdi sTJe'''''' ""'" '^^ "°"^'"°' ^^^^^*^"« ""''"^ ^^-^^ -"''^ --- the- ite dl'^i^^Jgot hTm'" " '''' '' ''''''''" ^" ''' ^""^-^* ^" -''«*^-« *^- ^^^' «t hav^irSI^ie/"'^^ "" '- '''"^^ '''^''^'" ^- ^* that time that could possibly Q. I don't think you have re,, rrt.t. a letter by you to Mr. J. C. Langelier without date, refusing to approve of Mr. Armstrong's claim for $175,000. Have you got a c^p^of it ? s.^ An^uK M. Thorn 585 >ect to this matter? ) obtaining possesBioi, t.V Mr. Lnngelier li; , it I suppose. say. A. No, Sir. That letter wa« written in Quebec. Q. You have no moans (if knowing; its tiate. A. It was between the 17t»i and 20tli. It was alter the 17th V yI"^."''*'''""'' ^ ""PPO"'^' " in the possession of Mr. J. C. Langelier? pai.ltS;'*^;;:!,^? ""^''"""^'^^"-•^^- '^-. ^»-t:any sun. of money wo. to be A. When did 1 first liecome aware of it? Q. Yes. ■'l h i'.'n ^ "'"r Tu'^""" ^ ""' ^''"''' '*^J'"^'« '^^°"* ''• I* '■« in'P«"8ihle for me to O Abo ,t wf; ? f ,'r""' ^"""«''«»«'>- «'t- tl'i" ck«ed I heard rumors. Q. About what date? Specify a date Q.' Not b'e.bre ?"'"'"' '"" '"' ''"''"^ "'"" ''^"''""' **^^^ P-^^'^^ »^« ™«"«y- A. Not before ; still I would not like to swear positively. Q. What was told you ? x- j payntenlrpZ^d" ' ^''"" "' '''' ^"^'^''"^ P^"''^'^- ^* -« « ' ^^«* ^here wa. a Q. Was any statement made to you, apart from the question of 'any payment to Mr Pacaud, by Mr Armstrong or any person else in ,he progress of th^e negotiatio^ hat Mr Pacaud was takmg part ir these negotiations ? A. No, Sir. Q. I put the question, because I notice that in the Senate investigation as it appears at page 185, you gave the following evidence • Ka"on, as u appears he clme t^'o youT "'■""'' '"'* ""''■ '^'"'''''''^ "^ negotiating with the Government until Itin'altU^Cr'"''^'^'^^- "'^* ^'' '^^°^^ *^^ ^- York meeting. Govemie^'ritV"" '"''' *"'' '''""^ "'"^ "'^^*^'''"« betw... Armstrong and the Quebec Joverle^;:-^™'*'""^ '"'""''''' ""^ ''"''^"•^ "^ negotiating between him and the There is an apparent discrepancy-perhaps only apparent between your evidence given tliere and your evidence toKlay. Can you explain it ' r evmence given A I camot unders'.uid where the discrepancy comes in. i don't see it, Sir. If you wll be kio . n „ugh to explain to me, probably I will see it Q. [think if you will read your answer here, you will see that there is a contrast (The questions and answers relating to this point are read over to the witness, whosays •) Yes, Sir, and I would like to correct that, and just repeat, what I gave to the Senate that I was aware that Armstrong and Pacaud were delaving. I was aw a're of that a 1 th oiigh relatfons^ttwLVrmr^"" ^°->'^^-^--erenotawarethat there w^ A. Positively, not aware. Sir. Q. At any time ? 580 An^us M. Tliom Q. I put the question to you, Mr. Thorn, because I notice that at page 180 of the Senate investigatiun you gave the following evidence : "Q. After the negotiations were completed— after you had completed your agree- I' ment with the Government you saw Mr. Pacaud in connection with some money to be " given to him or that he had received or something of that kind ? " A. It was indirectly, " Q. What was it ? " A. Previous to the closing of this contract Mr. Armstrong came to me and asked me '' to accept an order in favor of some bank in Quebec. I don't remember the name. It was '^ either for $4600 oi «8600. 1 objected to that for the reason that I had not decided to g,j II into the contract. I asked him what it was for, and he told me it was for a debt due to II Mr. Pacaud in this Dank. He had negotiated a subsidy through Mr. Pacaud for forty-Uve II or fifty thousand dollare. I thought I had better not accept it as a matter of business and " refused to accept it ; but the day after the bank manager sent to me and asked me to " accept it. " Q. A bank in Quebec ? " A. Yea. « " Q. What bank ? " A. I cannot say, I declined to accept it. ' " A. A lew days after that Mr. Pacaud came to me and asked me if I would not accept II this for Mr. Armstrong, that I waa likely to go on with the contract, the matter was closed he heard, and I said I would not accept any order. " I would like to give you an opportunity to explain the discrepancy between vour evidence to-day and the evidence given before the Senate committee. A. I thought you were referring to a money payment by Mr. Armstrong to Mr. Pacaud. I was certainly aware of this transaction at least— what took place there. Q. Please state what took place ? A. I was a;iproached both by Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Pacaud for to.... Q. At what time ? A. About the time of the closing of the contract. Q. Before or after ? A. I couldn't say ; in fact, I was approached three or four times to accept an order for 13,600, which, I understood, was the interest on a loan which Mr. Pacaud had obtaincl through some bank on account of a subsidy for the boneHt of Mr. Armstrong. I was under the impression that Mr. Paciud w.vs, of course, responsible for the interest imxsmuch as he (»me and asked me to accept the order ; and Mr. Armstrong also ask id me to accept it, and the bank manager came also and asked me ; but I did not accept the order. I was under the impression that if Mr. Pacaud had to pay the interest he would likely h wo to pay the principal. That is all there was to that, sir. Q. Nothing further? A. No. Q. Have you yet settled with the MacFarlane estate? ■ A. No, sir. Q. Mr. Thoni, since yon have obtained possession of this road what has been your progress on the roatl ? A. Oh, the work is getting on remarkably well. I saw the contractor yesterday, and he Angus M. Thorn 581 page 180 of the Senate jpancy between your says he is pushing the work very vigorously. Our engineer is hero, and will give you full ihaa 'ay "''"' ^ '"'"" "°' ^''" '^''™ ''" ^^'' ™''''- ^' ^« °"^r ^om hearsay, Q. Wa;s there any work in progress when you took possession ' A. x\o The work was at a stand-still when we took possession and had been for nearly two years, I think. "cauj- Q. What are your expectations as to its completion ? A. I think we will build it within our contract. Q. You might mention the date ? A. Our contract stipulates for completion by December of J892. We contemplate now having that road in operation-the Hrst 8(1 miles we expect to have in operation early next spring ; the full 100 miles we expect to be operating by August or September. That will complete our road. Q. And what as to the balance of eighty miles ? A. I Ivive made no arrangements concerning that portion of it. '' Q. It is your purpose to deal with that too V A. Later on, yes. Q. And you have no doubt of the financial ability of your company to handle the work ? A. JNot the slightest. By Mr. Hall: - Q. Have you or your company got a copy of Mr. Armstrong's contract in your posses sioii yet ; A. There is one in Quebec which I can borrow for you. Q. I want to know if your company has a copy ? A. I would not like to say po.-itively. Q. Have you got a copy of the contract between Armstrong and MacFarlane ? A. We may have both, but they would be in the Court house. Q. 1 understand you came down to Quebec, fir^t of all, in March 1891 ? A. Probably. I don't remember the date. Q. You don't remember having been down here in March 1891 ? A Well, I can say it was March, if you say so. Q. I am not asking you to say it because I say, because you are giving evidence now ? A. I don't remember any date. Q^ Now, when you came down in April 1891, 1 understood you to say, you went to see Hon. Mr. Garneau and Hon. Mr. Ross ? " j< j A. Yes, Sir. Q. You had discussions with them about the position the Government would take with reterence to the roail ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Now, do you recollect what it was they told you in particular ? A. In the March meeting ? Q. The April meeting ? A. The conversation was simply as to the prospects of the road-its probable earning J.* < I ," 688 Angus M. Thorn raTwr;«"r P™«'^^"'>- °f extending it southward connecting with the American system of railways, and a general outline that way. jo c « w Q. Did they tell you what sort of a proposal you would have to make ? A. No, sir. Q. Did they tell you what yon had to do with reference to the debts on the road ? , ■**-• i vSj Sir. Q What did they say about that ? A. Probably not at that meeting. roadt ^*^^''*"^^«t'"S did they discuss with you, then, about paying the debts of the A. Some subsequent meeting. Q. What did they tell you about the debts ? A. That all the privileged debts would have to be paid. Q. Did they tell you what these were ? A. I found that out for myself. Q. Where ? A. In the records in Mr. J. C. Langelier's office. olaii^'oJ'fhe road r ""'' ' ''""'"" ^^'"^ ^"" '' '''' '^ *^'^°'^* ^^- ^™''*^«"g »^*-"g ^ A. No, I think it was taken for granted on both sides, the ?oad r "'^'"^ ^'" '^ '^'^ '^'''"""^ "' *°'^ ^°" "^°"* ^'- A^"^«trong having a claim on A. I don't think so. ArmSro'JigVoTtheloaT/" ^'^ """'"^ Works Department that there wa« a claim of Mr. A. I knew that Mr. Armstrong had a claim. Arr^irl^l «^king you if you found out in the Public Works Department that Mr. Armstrong had a claim on the road ? A. I dnn't think so. Q. Did you find out from the Public Works Department what claims there were ? A. There was a list there that I loooked over. Q. What did these debts amount to ? A. I think about forty-three thousand dollars. Q. Was the name of C. N. Armstrong on that list ? A. No. .s..w,i°;,":jr'"""'"'""'°"""*~ ""■ "'""■ " ^^^ ^-''-^'^ "i"* «« A. Between the 17th April and Ist May. Q. Where did you see it first ? A. In the secretary's office, Mr. Robitaille. everiwTthereS'''" '^'^^ ««« *^'« ^'-^^^ "P i" *he Department of Public Works, if you ■of it. When it was presented to me by Mr. J. C. Langelier about the time I approved Q. Do you recollect when it was presented to you by Mr. J. C. Langelier? A. It was handed to me. 1 I aying the debts of the Angus M Thorn 589 Q. When? A. He handed it to me. • the SteT? '''°"' ''' '"■• '• ""• "^'"^^"^ '"'" '' '« -^"^ «^ -"d '* *° y- -der cover with A. No, I think the account was open. I looked over it in his office. A. I think it was openly. Q. Are you sure of that ' A. I would not swear any different from that read?"af fXsT"""' "" """"^ ' '''''' '"^ ''^^'' *« '"^^ '« ^^- '■ ^- ^elier, which "'i ¥\ mstrong's which was J. C. Lanqelier, Esq., Quebec. Dear Sir, Quebec, 24th of April, 1891. In Hnswer to yours of 23rd inst. transmitting for my approval the account of P Ttf Yours very truly, A. M. THOM." Q. Did you sign that ? A. Yes Sir, I signed that letter. Q. Uo you recollect where you signed that letter ? A. I signed it in Mr. Langelier's office. D. Do you know where it is ? A. He has it. It is written in type-writing I think Q. Who prepared the letter ? Q. Who else waa present when this letter waa composed ? A. Not any one else. Q- Do you recollect what date it was ? : _ 1 f 1 ii 6P0 Angus M Thorn A. I cannot say positively. It wius somewhere about tlie 24th of April. Q. Would that date bo cqrrect ? • A. I cannot say. Q. You cannot tell us whether when you signed a receipt on the 24th of April that was the 24th of April or some other day ? Do you say that? A. No Sir, I wouldn't like to swear that that was the date of the letter. There was no reason for having it different from the date there. Q. You refer there to having received a letter from Mr. J. C. Langelier of 23rd of Anril 1891? ^ ' A. Yes, Sir. Q- Have yoii that letter ? A. I may have in Montreal. Q. Can you tell us from memory whether you have or not? A. I haven't got it here, but more than likelv it is there. Q. If you settled a claim and paid out monies for another company for $175,000, would you recollect whether you had the vouchers for that claim ? A. I think so. Q. Don't you remember whether you had or not? A. This letter ain't a voucher. i Q. Not in connection with the settlement of the claim ? A. Not at all. Q. Well, where is the letter? . A. The letter is in Montreal. Q. Who showed you the claim of Armstrong first of all in the Public Works Depart- ment ? A. I think Mr. Langelier. Q. Was that the day you were up there and wrote this letter,— the 24th of April ? A. It is more than possible. Q. Mr. Langelier sent for you to come up there ? A. No Sir, I was in there most every day. Q. What business would you have in theie on the 24th April 1891 ? A. Looking over the accounts of the road. The data waa all there. Q. Do I understand that you saw for the first time in the Public Works Department this claim of Mr. Armstrong, of the 23rd April 1891 ? A. I think I saw the claim first in Mr. Robitaille's office. Q. The first time you saw it in the Public Works Department was the 23rd or the 24th of April ? A. About then, Q. And you sat down with Mr. Langelier and composed this letter ? A. Yes, Sir, rtbout that. Q. Now please look at the Public Works record, among the papers of 1891, and see the statement of account of Mr. C. N. Armstrong there, and state if that is the document that you and Mr. Langelier had before you, when you composed this letter of the 24th April 1891 ? A. Yes, Sir. That is it,— copy of which is produced as exhibit No. 8. Q. Was that the only document that you and Mr. Langelier had in connection with the Armstrong claim, at the time ? Angus M. Tliom 591 any for $175,000, would Works Department is the 23rd or the 24th A. I had looked over Mr. Light's estimates there. That is all I had before me ,„ J; ^'" ^""^ "" °'''''" documents before you, except what appears on the fac^ of that A. That is all. Q. You had looked over the figures of Mr. Light? A. Yes, Sir. q. And had the original certificates of Mr. Light before you ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. When? A. The first time I saw the statement. Q. Did you «ee from Mr. Light's certificates how the figures were made up? A. I saw the total ? ^ yi Q. You did read the certificates through ? A. No, Sir. Q. You saw that he certified to certain sums? A. Yes, Sir. A. Yes, Sir. Q. And on that, you settled this matter and paid $175 QOO A. Yes, Sir. ' Q. You consented to the payn)ent of tlie $175,000 ? A. Yes, Sir, on the strength of the certificates. Q. Now, I assume, of couiBe. that if you had only paid $25,000, the balance of the money would go to the company ? . , c .^amnoe oi me A. Naturally. company" ''''"' "'""' ^""'"^ '"" °'^'^' ""'' "*^ "^''^ '''''"'' ^^''''^ ^o to the benefit of the A. Yes, Sir. menLtS'? "''"""'''''''"'"'""' ''"''""''"'^"*^^'^«^^™^"^"«° *^-" ^^-^ yo» have A. Not to any extent. Q. Did you have any communication with Mr. Cooper, the leader of this syndicate' A. No. Q. Nor any correspondence about it ? A. No. Mr. .Wrong?"" ""'''" ^'' "^'''^ ""^ ™^ *'"* ^^^^« "^ ^ ^'^"^ - the part of He told hL'tZro^^':?^^^^^^^^^ ''''' ^'''- ^'""'-"^ ^-' ^°fe^* ^1^^.«0« ^or his position. (■l Were any papers submitted to you or to Mr. Cooner on hnbalf «f ♦>,,• r . showing how this claim of Mr. Armstrong was arriv;d at f ' '^''"''""*'' A. Mr. Armstrong never represented it was $175,000 that ho wanted for his Hnim T. was tor his position that he wanted the money. ^* Q. And for his good will, I suppose ? A. Yes, Sir. i 1 5P2 Angus M. Thorn Q. Or for whatever would be comprehended in that? A. I suppot^e 80. Q. Did that comprehend his influence too? A. Not at all. We might have paid him extra for his influence, if we wanted it. ' youL^tot.tSierl™'^""^'''"'^^"" '^^^ ""^ ^^^' «^ *"*« '«"- -^-^^ A. I presume I may have in Montreal. Q. This is very important. I want you to be sure about it A. I could not tell you from memory. I would not like to swear Q. Have you a copy of this claim ? A I must have. The original claim itself really belongs t.) mv company, and Mr J C Langeher 18 holdmg It on behalf of the company. p» ^, ana ivir. j.u Q. I understand you to pass generally for a pretty clever and shrewd man. A. Ihflnk you. Q. And you are dealing up into millions of dollars ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. And running a railway out there in the Baie des Chaleurs district ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you mean to tell us that you cannot tell us whether you have any imnortant papers to lay before the Commission to show you have settled the claim v ^ P°'*^"' A t ^u "" important paper which shows it. It is here in thehandsof J. C Langelier and he is h.^ldirg it in trust for the company i-angeiier, syndkate /'"' ''°" '^^''' '' '"' ^'' ""'' ^"°"'"^"* ""'^ '^"^^ '' ^^^^ ^ belonging to the A. Yes, Sir. Q. And then the Government would not have any receipt at all' A. Oh, yes. Sir, I would give them a receipt for it myself.-exchange receipts. Q. Exchange receipts ? Of the Government until they L all paid :^:n''::i7Ztr:^Z:ZZT^^^^ otht lot As the claims are being paid,-any person's claim whatever-a« Mr Lan^ll.W n out the claims, he takes a subro.ation in favor of the Commisdoner o^ Publ^To S th! ::ZZ ' ' " """ " *'' '"""^ ''' '''''' '^ "•" -subrogairtremt; t: Q. Well, then there is an understanding about this, and we must have a record about it ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Is it reduced to writing? A. The forms of the subrogation are in existence. Q. That is to say, they are actually on all the receipts ? A. I presume so. Q. And you would be entitled to draw all those papers? A. Certainly. Q. But there is nothing in writing to that effect? A. There is an understanding between Mr. Garneau and myself. I ! An^us M. Tkom 593 inge receipts. ive a record about it? Q. Where does this subrogation exist ? A. In talking over the best form of seltlempnf «„» . t rogation nbould be taken for all claim. '"'""'"""*' °"« '^^y I "^^de a request that a sub- A. f think r"'"""' ''"' ''"' '^^ '^^" '"^"i^d «"' •' Q. And that subrogation would be in writing ? A. I should say so. 18 any subrogation in writing on that claim of Mr ^ '^ .^^^"^/^'"ent and state where there fyled as exhibit No. 3. and show me wheS the subr'oLf ™ T ^' * '^''^^''^'' ^' ^hich i^ that claim. ^"^'^^ '^^ subrogation is that you have relerred to, on A. There it is. (indicating) Q. Well, read it. h.v. or m.y have .gaimiih, ..a „„„'"™7°' "*>•»"«•■■ ""..re and kind which I do hereby cancel and .„„„, theoon.ract and'a—eM^r T", '° "'"'=''' '"'' """l •"■» °"^r„rai;:-ir;iii--=s^^^^^^ »!„.,,. „d all material, provided rrc'.n^,:cZT?°,°' '"' ""'" » ">« ■«« ^. ..ck Placed „„ .he line in fnnher.nce oTrpl;^„r.ridr„2:.* ,'r• Signed at Quebec, this 28th day of April, 1891. C. N. ARMSTRONG." Q. That is the subro-otion you referred to? A. Yes, Sir, (hat is it. ?■ 'S!**! '■ ^\f?^^^ ^i^brogation you know of ? A. That 18 all I know of. ..^.ihS:^?i:^snis'Lfr!:5-:;c:;--tsf • - Q. And you „irt yo„ thought it , ■« i„ type-wdtine f .,Q:iiraurdr:eti:;;LToi7arp:*«f^^^ If that is the letter ? ^^ '^** ^""'P"'^ '« ^^ the original of that, and state A. Yed, Sir. A. That IS my writing, and that is the letter. 88 694 Angvs M Thorn " Quebec, April the 24th 1801. J. C. Langelier, Esq., Quebec. Dear Sir, In answer to yours of the 23rd inst., transmitting for my approval the account of C. N. Armstrong, Esq., agent of the Baie des Chideurs Railway Company, to the amount of $298,- 943.62, 1 beg to state that I refuse to approve and certify that account for more than one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars ($175,000), and this on the express conditio- that Mr. Armstrong shall cancel and annul his contract with the company and shall give full and iibsolutedischiirge of any claims whatever agiunst the road or anything appertaining to it, directly or indirectly. Yours very truly, A. M. THOM. " . Q. Was it not in answer to that letter that Mr. Armstrong gave the letter on the date of the 28th of April which you have quoted a moment ago ? A. I presume so. i Q. Now, I may differ with you, Mr. Thorn, but it does not seem to me that a letter written on the 28th of April is a subrogation of a claim settled on the 24th ? A. I think it is. Q. Mr. Thom, in answer to one of the members of the Commission you stated that Cooper, Fairman & Co. had a claim of about $19,600. A. About that. Q. That was a secured claim at the time yon were going on with the negotiatioi.s ?, A. Secured by bonds, — bonds of no value unless the work progressed. Q. Cooper, Fairman and Coinpany had received bonds of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company for $50,000 to secure that ? A. $51,000. Q. I understand that the cheques produced by you this morning as Exhibits 134a, 134b. 134c, etc., show how the monies deposited in your account in the Banque Nationale out of the $31,750 were paid ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And if I have paid proper attention I see that out of those cheques $17,556.23 were paid to Mr. lames Cooper ? A. In the tirst place, yt'S. I don't know if that was the exact amount, but if the figures are correct that is right. Q. Now, while you were down here during that first visit in March, and that next one in April, going on with these negotiations, did you have any correspondence with Mr. James Cooper ? A. No, I doit't think I did. Mr. Laflamme was here and returned after consulting with me, and Mr. Lonergan was here also. Q. How long was Mr. Laflamme here? A. I think ii day. Q. Do you recollect the day he was here ? A. I think he was down here aftor I came down, probably on the 17th or 18th, and remained a day. Q. Remained a day ? iiii:||:i8iife Angus M. Thorn 695 April the 24th 1801. mission you stated that d after consulting with the 17th or 18th, and A. Yes Sir. Q. How long was Mr. Lonergiin here '! A. Twice or three times. Q. The lOth, 20th and 21st ? A. It would be hard to say. Q. But you had no communication in writinir with \r,. n of the syndicate ? ^ ""'*'' *^'- ^^^^"^ ^"^ ^^y other members A. No Sir, I think not. Q. In the statement that you produce containing the list of tho «h„..«.K , . Q. Have you not deliverpd the scrip? A. We have a peculiar kind of scrip. Q. It must be a very peculiar kind. A. It is a sort of a transfer and evervthinsr pIsp Tf t^;ii t„i for you. eiytning else. It will take me some time to get at it Q. You understand what I want. I want tlm fi..foc u .u b,..e,, gentlemen,,, .here i.„„.h,„/.„rpt,l;L^I,:?r "" '""'*" "'"'^'PW A. Oh ! there is nothing peculiar about it. Q. The only peculiarity about it is that vo,, .im nr^^ oKi * • without a good deal of delay, time and troubleT "^^'^ *« S^^e us the information A. Thedates show here tomvself on "yth f.f Ar^rJi v • on the 29th and Cassels on the 30th no th se datp^, ~ T^ '''" "'' '^^'^'~ Williamson 2.5th. ' " *' ^^'"^ ^^*^ '^'e all wrong. They were all on the .rJer'b'^ok"''"^^'"^'^^'^"^^^^^"' ^-^'^'^ «-« ^es Chaleurs Company got a stock A. A stock transfer book ' y. Yes. A. Yes. .wirr.crp:rrpSsr!zLT£i.tr"^^^^^^ A. Not the date of their acceptance. Q. Does this company keep a stock ledger ? A. I opened one. Q. Why did you open it ? A. In order to bring it down to Quebec. There never was one before. y. Well, we don't want to manufacture one t nitt .^::f; "°* '^-^ ^°°'" -^^ •"■°-'' ^ "■« — '^'»^ A. Yes, Sir. ,1 ' -1 % 696 Angus M. Thorn Q. Will tlmt show ilie dato ol' the acceptance by theae gentlemen of the tranbtt-r of the Btock ? A. I don't think so. Q. Have you anything among the books of the company either in writing or othc rwise to show tlie acci'ptaiice of the stock transferred to those various gentlemen ? A. I have not got anything at all. Q. Then how do you know that tliey have accepted now ? A. The cortilicate of the treasurer is evidence enough. Q. Do yuu think that it is sullicient to oblige these gentlemen to pay calls on tlie stock ? A. A. I think it is. I undei-stand that none of these gentlemen have paid anything on ihat stock? Well, I qualified them all mytelf, I think. Mr. Cooper may have qualified one. Q. Is there any resolution of the boaid of directors of this compa ly or of the stock holdeis of this company showing that the Oideiwn-Coui.cil passed in April last was brought before them and discussed ? A. No, Sir. Q. Is there any resolution accepting the terms of the Order-in-Council ? A. No, Sir. Q. Mr. Thom, I would like tt> quote your evidence which you appear to have given before the Senate Conunitte, at page 186, with reference to dates. " Q. Well, did yon examine all the vouchers and engineers' estimates making up Mr. Armstrong's claim? " A. I did not think it was necessary. I saw attached the signatures of men in whom'?! had the utmost confidence. " Q. But you never thought of verifying them? " A. No. " Q. You never verified that statement before you certified to Mr. Langelier by this'do- cument that $175,000 ought to be paid to Mr. Armstrong ? " A. Not further than looking over it. " Q. You simply looked over the claims submitted? " A. I saw Mr. Light's estimates and the figures there. " Q. Where did you see Mr. Light's estimates? '■ A. I think it wjw in Mr. Riopel's house." Q. Do you recollect giving that evidence before the Senate? A. Certainly. Q. Then you accepted these claims, as a matter of fact? A. Yes, Sir, but read the rest. " Q. Do you remember the date? " A. I do not remember. " Q. Do you remember about the d ite ? " A. The ntgotiations were between the 15th and the 23rd of April. " Q. You had not very much time between the 15th and the 23rd to go through and check that claim in exhibit 5 ? " A. Nqt the details of it. " Q. You did not check any details ? " A. It waa impossible for me to do so, it is an engineer's business." A. It agrees with the evidence I have given here. AnfTfis M. Tliom 597 ill of the transfer of the 11 to pay calls on tlie r. Langelier by this'do rd to go through and Q- A. Q- A. (I. Do you recollect what dato it was vou tirst lifiiir A. No, Sir. Q. Look at it carefully and see if I can help you to remember. A. I dor. t believe I have ever seen the writing in my life before. Q. How long have you known Mr. Lonergan, the solicitor of the company ' A. Intimately for about six months. Q. How long ? A. Six or seven months. Q. And of courBe, since he has been solicitor of the company, you have had some communications from him ? j. j"" '"ive nau some A. I have had some. C^. Is not that letter in his handwriting ? o ■ IrT rl'Tl*" ''• ^ ''""^'^ ™'^*"" «^«" *^^* i' ^^« "ot than it is. Q. You don't think that is his writing ' A. No, Sir. Q. It is not your writing ? A. Xn, Sir. A. I do not know. Q. Do you recollect the circumtanoes under which it was signed ? .^\^'^'^'l\}"'^''''''''^^^°^i^-G^^-ryemthe fact that I had remained over two or three times at his request in hope that the transaction would be closed ^nd I h'd waited ong that I v^..s about getting tired of the tran.sactinn, and so Mr. S neaVstatert^^^^^ rtaH y llZ'ILtl T"' " '' "" "^"'^ ^^^""^^' ^^ ^^"^ carry iUhrgi n ^ certain day. I said I had had promises enough and that I wanted it in a definite shape y. Did you state that to Mr. Garneau or somebody else ? A. I told it. Q. Where ? A. In his office. Q. Do you recollect where this letter was handed to you ? A. It may be in his office. Q. Do you recollect who else was there ? A. Perhaps Mr. Lesage. • Q. You think it was Mr. Lesage ? I a 600 Angus M. Thorn A. I don't remember getting the letter any -way, so I cannot af>sociat'> it with any person b(?ing tliere. Q. I understand that the present company have sublet the work on the road to Mr Hogan ? A. They have given Mr. Hogan a contract. Q. To do what work the company would have to do ? A. To take the first 20 miles. Q. Does he assume all the financial responsibilities ? A. Assisted by us. Q. By whom ? A. The company. Q. Has the company a large financial standing in Montreal ? A. I don't think you have any right to ask that. Q. I want to know if it is the company's financial assistance or somebody else's that is helping him ? A. I don't think you have any right to a«k that. Q. I want to know whether it is the company's financial assistance or somebody else's that is helping Mr. Hogan. A. Am I compelled to answer that ? Q. Well, I won't press the question. Mr. Thom, I understand that after the company completed their negotiations with the Government down here, they made an application to the Dominion authorities for financial assistance for the road ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. Did they make an application in connection with getting a charter from the Domi- nion Government ? A. The application, I think, was made by the old company. We simply followed it up. Q. Do you recollect that the solicitor of your company, Mr. Lonergan, presented a memorandun to the Hon. Mr. Abbott, Premier of the Dominion, in connection with this charter or some other matters ? A. I don't remember it. Q. You don't remember ? A. No, Sir. Q. Will you look at the paper now shewn you, and which was produced before the Senate Committee as Exhibit No. 1, and is now produced before this Commission as Exhibit 136 and state if you are aware that that document is in the handwriting of the solicitor of the company, Mr. Lonergan, and was handed by Mr. Lonergan to Mr. Abbott, in the month of May or June 1891 ? A. I think that is his writing. I never knew he handed it to Mr. Abott. Q. You never heard of it ? A. I may have heard of it, but I could not swear that it is the document. Q. I suppose the contract which the company has with Mr. Hogan, subletting the work is in writing ? ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. Passed before a notary ? A. No, Sir, a lawyer. • Q. In duplioate ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Have you any objection to produce that contract ? A. Certainly, 1 have a decided objection. Angus M. Tliom 601 Mr. BHque : — Why do you want it produced ? ' Mr. Hall .— I think it is very important. A certain amount of evidence has been Inid before the Commission to the effect that there was a great necessity for constructing that road and it was because it was to be built by this wealthy syndicate that the Government was anxious to close the transaction. The Order in Council was passed upon the understanding that the construction of this road would be carried on by a wealthy syndicate. Now, in addition to that we have an application made asking for some change in the nature of the payment of the subsidies and if there was a great necessity to build the r^ad, if it was to be built by this wealthy syndicate, it might be well for us to see, as a matter of fact, if these people having subln, these works, did in any way place themselves under any financial obligation in this matter. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. How much of the road have you under contract? A. Twenty miles. Q. And as to the balance ? A. We will likely let the contract for that this winter. Q. You are doing nothing then so fai-, except on the first 20 miles ? A. That is all. It was impossible for us to do 40 miles in one season. Q. You have not touched the baLmce then at all ? A. No, Sir, we are only working on the one 20 miles. That is all our contract calls for this year. Q. You have expended nothing on the balance ? A. Engineers are going down there to survey the line. Q. Then the expenditure of $260,000 on the 40 miles from Cascapedia to Paspebiac mentioned in the exhibit just referred to, is not an expenditure by ycur company ? A. I do not understand that quite. (Looking at the book, giving quotation referring to t"he question just asked, the witness declares it was a mistake in print), Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — In the meanwhile, the Commission prefers to take communication of this contract. The Witness: — The contract is in Montreal. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Your subpoena was pretty Droad and you should have brought it with you. No answer. Q. How much did you calculate you were receiving from the Government on the first 20 miles ? A. From both Governmenis, 1234,000. 602 Angus M. Thorn \i\ m !t 1 Q. How much per mile would that be for the tirdt 20 miles? Surely you must be wrong. A. No, Sir, there is !?.jO,000 on the miles GO to 70. Q. You wholly mistake the qutstion. A. On mill s 6U to 70 there is $50,000, on miles 70 to 80 there is $70,000, and then there is $50,000 for the bridge at Cascapcdia, and $64,000 from the Federal government, making a total of $234,000. Q. And that would represent ? A. About $11,700 a mile. Q. Have you with you the transfers of the old company to the new company of the shares helion of the railroad. After we got possession of the stock, I think It was. Q. In whose handwriting were the stubs filled up which represent the transfers from the olci company to the new ? A. I think they were in Mr. Robitaille's writing too. Q. As a matter of fact, all these stubs are in the handwriting of Mr. Robitaille? A. I think so. Sir. Q. Will you produce, as an example, the transfer of the 1022 shares from Mr. Kionel to ycu '' ^ A. Yes, Sir, but I have not got it here. And thereupon the Commission adjourned until 2 P. M. 2 o'clock p. m,, the 30th October, 1891. ANGUS M. THOM , continued his deposition as follows : By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. There is one point, Mr. Thorn, referred to in your evidence on which vou might perhaps be able to give us some additional information. You have stated that" you were aware that Mr. Armstrong had stood ready to accept $75,000 in settlement of his claim from the old syndicate and you had acceded to the increased demand of $175,000 because of the better financial position of the undertaking in consequence of legislation of last session. Can you tell us how that 'better financial position in anyway increased the value of Mr. Armstrong's position when he only received $75,000? A. The value of the asset that he was offering for sale was worth $280000 Q. Oh, no ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. It could not be that ? A. It was worth more by the last subsidy. mm] Angus M Thorn 605 .cr.ni « " onn '"T r". '''" ""l"'"^ '"^ '''"'P' ^'^'''^^ ^"'^ ^" *^^^ otherca^e he wa« willing to accept «/ 0,000 and dul accept it, and yuu paid him $175,000? A. Yes, but he demanded $180,000 from me. By Mr. BHque :— Q. Will you say, Mr. Thorn, if you were a shareholder in the Bale deb Chaleurs Railway Company before you negotiated with the company '' ^^auway A. Yea, Sir. Q. How far back were you a shareholder ? A. 1887, 1 think. date?' ^'"'^°"''^''' *° '^^ stock-book which you have now before youjand state the (Witness refers to stock-book). A. June 4th, 1886. Q. To what extent were you a shareholder ? A. One hundred shares. Q. Did you remain a shareholder for these one hundred shares up to this date ' A. I have transfered thirty. Q. And you always kept the balance ? A. I have got the balance still. Q. Your holding of shares was increased in April or May last ? A. That is, by the quantity I held in trust— some four thousand A. Yes Sir '" ^^'''"''°" °*' "'' *^^ ^"""^ °*" '^^ ^^'^ *^«« Chaleurs Railway Company ? menu ^^' ^'"'^' ^^^^ ^^'^ ^'^* ^^ ^'' ^°^^*""'" ^^^'''^ y°» negotiated with the Govern- A. Yes, Sir. Q. You have these books with you now ' A. Yes, Sir. .y..^\I''''\^l^^T'^ *^^T^^r """'^ ^^PProached by Mr. C. N. Armstrong some time about the end of FebruAry, I believe ? • A. Yes, Sir. Q. About forming a syndicate to take hold of the railway ' A. No, Sir not in that shape. He approached me to buy him out ; he did not say anything about lorming a syndicate. ^ Q. Did you at first entertain the proposition A. No. Sir. Q. Why did you not entertain his proposition ? cease^dnTg'odatfng.^™^'""' ^'°'' '^ '"^' ' ^'' ""* ^^^'^ '^'^^ ^^ ^-^^--^^i had Q. Then, do I understand you to say that you would have nothing to do with Mr n N Armstrong until you were satisfied that Mr. John J. Macdonald had ceased negotiations' with Riopel or the Government ? negotiations I W.1 ^^* P""'^^'''^: Had I not been sure that John J. Macdonald had ceased negotiations I would not have gone into it on any account. from'^thJ^roS '*'*' '^' '""'"' '^'' '"''"^'^ ^"" *^'"* •^"^" ^- Macdonald had withdrawn A. On two different occasions Mr. Macdonald told me he had ceased negotiations y. When was it ? o « ». :«Hi^ w i 11 606 Angus M. Thorn A. Q. A. A. Some time about March, I presume, the first March, Q. Any way before your visit to Now- York ? A. Certainly, Q. You are positive that it was before your visit to New York ? A. Positive. Q. Was any other person present with you and Mr. Macdonald when he told you he had ceased negotiations ? A. On one occasion Mr. Cooper was present. Where wao it that Mr. Cooper was present ? At lunch, in Freeman's, in Montreal. What did Mr. Macdonalil toll you and Mr. Cooper on that occasion ? On that occasion Mr. Co.ipor spoke to Mr. Macdonald and asked him whether or not he was going on with the Baie .les Chaleurs Railway. He said no, that it was impossible for him to make any arr.mg.ment with Mr. Riopcl and he had not done anything since November-I think it was November ho said-and he stopped the negotiations. Mr. Cooper then said to Mr. Macdonald th..t unless Mr. Macdonald went on with the road that he (Cooper) would have to do some thing to protect his claim, to which Mr. Macdonald made' no reply, leaving me and Mr. Coof-er under the impression that he had no intention of con- tinuing the negotiations. Q. Anyway, you are sure that you and Mr. Cooper intimated to Mr. Macdonald that as soon as he wouhi withdraw from the project you would go into it ? A. I did not tell him that. Mr. Cooper did tell him that if he should withdraw he should have to take some moans U) secure his claim. Q. On any other occa.4on did you tell him or did Mr. Cooper tell him ? A. I don't think so until after it was closed. Q. At that time did you communicate with Mr. Riopel or Mr. Robitaille or any of them and ascertain whether anything was to come out of their negotiations with Mr Mac- dodalil ? A. Well, Mr. Armstrong told me that all negotiations with Mr. Macdonald had ceased and that Mr. Riopel, he thought, would be anxious to treat with us or any pei-son else who would likely go on with the scheme. Q. At that date did you obtain the option filed yesterday. A. I think it is dated 18th March. Q. Was it obtained on t'lat day ? A. I think so. Q. Then you communicated with Mr. Riopel ? A. Previous to that there was some communication with Mr. Riopel through Mr Armstrong. ° Q. Was it through Mr. Armstrong that this option was obtained by you ? A. I can hardly say that, but it was he induced us to go into it. and telegraphed Mr Riopel that we were likely to go on with it. ■ Q. But you had personal interviews with Mr. Riopel previous to the signintr of the option ? OS A. Yes. Q. A t that time had you any conversations with Mr. Riopel as to to whether there were any negotiations with Mr! Macdonald nnd as to whether there wa« anything to come out of It . A. Mr. Riopel positively assured me that he would have nothing to do with Mr. Mac- donald. Angus M. Tlum 607 Q. Did he give you reason ? A. Ho said lie was too stingy. Q. Any way you were satisfied that there were no more negotiations between them ? A. I was perfectly satisfied before I went in. Q. Was it after that you w^nt to New- York ? T w.f; f "' ''•'""^ !^"', ;™^- '^^''°'-« ^hat time. I think it was on the thirteenth March I went to New York, if I am not mis^taken. shor^'in^Sew^orkf'' '^'' your interview with Mr. Robidoux and Mr. Langelier was very A. Yes. « Q. It lasted how long ? A. Two to five minutes-hardly five minutes, I think-two minutes, more likely, y. Was there any offer made by them to return to Montreal '' A. No, Sir. intot ^^^"* '""^ ^^^^ '^" ^'"" ■ ^'^ *''^^ '^"""^ ^ '° '''^''" negotiations could be entered A. On their return from the trip which they were about taking Q^ They told you they were on a trip for some two or three weeks and they nsked you to send in your proposal and on their return, it would be taken into consideration " A. Yes, Sir. aentSitlMr^Rar^r"^'^'"""'^' ^'- '''^^'^"' '^''°"* *^^^' ^"^^^^^ ^^^* ^°" -- P- A. The first time I ever met Mr. Pacaud in my life was there. Q. You stated that you then met some of the ministers in Quebec in the month of April ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. After Mr. Robidoux and Mr. Langelier returned from their trip ? A. Yes, Sir. *: ^' -TriK^T '*^*^'^ ^^'^ *^^* y°" °^^^' employed Mr. Pacaud in any of your negotia tions with the Government? j-^ui uegtua A. Never in any way. Q. You are most positive of that ? A. Moat positive. timet ^''''^*'"*°"'"''^''"fi'^*«"iew8 with the ministers that were in Quebec at that A. Yes. Q. Did you find them easy to close the negociations ? A. No, on the contrary, it waa one of the-hardest jobs I ever tackled. hurrSdIy'? ^'' ^*'"'*" °' """^ '^ '^' "'"''"'"' '^'°'' ^^^ ''"^'"'^ *° "^"^'^ t^« negotiations A. No, the anxiety waa the other way- not to close them. Q. you say that it was the most difficult bargain that you had ever had? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Well, was it on account of thrt ycu threatened to break negotiations ? A, That waa one of the reasons. 608 Angus M.Thum Q. Had you any other reasons to break off the negotiation or to hurry up the negotia- tions with the Government ? A. Yes, n>y option was about expiring. Q. When was your option to '• ipire? A. I think it was on the 28th April. Q. II" your option had expired belore you had been able to close or toget Mr. Arnirstrong to close, what do you apprehend would have been the consequence ? A. I would have been at the mercy of the old shareholders. They might have asked an increased price for their stock. Q. Did you repeatedly tell the ministers of that danger ? A. I remember one occasion. I don't know that I done it repeatedly. Q. 1 think you had several interviews with the ministers at informal Council meetings ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. What was your object in meeting the mi listers at these informal meetings of the Council ? A. To arrive at an agreement that would dc quite satisfactory. They were inserting various clauses that I could not agree to ; and, on the othjr hand, I wished to get conditions that they would not grant me. Q. Well, from that fact, are you satisfied that they tried and did all they could to make the best possible bargain with you ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Now, will you say if anything passed between you and any of the ministers or any of the officials of the Government or anything passed between them and any other person to your knowledge at that time that waa of a naturt^ to create any suspicion ? A. Not at all. Q. Did you ever exercise or attempt to exercise any undue influence or any undue pressure on any of the ministers or any of the officials of the Government about this matter ? A. I don't know what you mean by undue influence ? Q. Improper ? A. No, never any improper. Q. What kind of influence or pressure did you exercise '? A. What persuasive powers I have. Q. And this persuosiive power was your own and that of your counsel Mr. Laflamme, and Mr. Loiiergan, who assisted you one way or .the other throughout these negotiations ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you say that several drafta were made and corrected one after the other until you came to an agreement with them ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Now, after the Orders-in-Council had been passed, you have stated also that there was a great deal of delay in obtaining the letters of credit ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did you endeavor as much as you could to obtain these letters of credit ? A. Yes, Sir. Angu: .^. Thorn »».,ou. to 8.1 „„ „iih "he work '°"*''°' '"">'" '» Set hi, m.nfy, .„d i „„ or .h? cy:L;.x^r;t":;;n; 1^'-'°'' ^» ^'-^ -"^ *« «»ve™,„e„. «„„ h„„.h A. I did not know what it might makA fn n.^ ^ a value, because I whs aware thT we were ^Zl t. T' '.'f' 'l"* ^'^ '"^ '' «-« ^^e bonds have disposed oitho bonds then vuthouTa hfZ^: Z'f''^ *'^ '°"^- ^"^' ' -"'^ not Q. Were you satisfied the road wa^ to be built ' A. Perfectly. _^^^_ Q.^A„., h.d .he G„ver„„e« „..„„ u, be ....M .he,, .h.. .he ,„»<1 „„ .„ he .„,.. A. According to my idea. ,ep.t. Te;-":;e"itV°""""' "' "'■ ''""- «»P»' '"^ «'• J- "■ D.we. .« men of A. They are wealthy enoi.rt .0 e.rry ou. .hi, undertaking Q. E.e„ cteide of any ,ub,i"^' 'he Company out of the $75,000 ? Q. Then they were to get the «75,000 clear ? A. They were to get the 175,000 clear Q. Well, out of the $75,000 how much did you pay them ? A. Sixty thou and dollars. Q. «40,000 by tne cheques of $16,000 and $24 000 ' A. Yes. A. Yel^S^ '''''"''*^' "^ '''" ''"" "' "'^'' ^°^ *^^'«00 ? ifon. JIfr. jM««ce Davidson :— Is this of any importance ? ilfr. BHque ;— Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :- He had them here in case they were needed. Mr. BHque, :— I had some apprehension that there niicrht h. .• «ot see what it wa«. ''' ""^^^ ^^ "^^ object in having them ; but I could Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .— make „. a„ offer. He ihought it over het!j J ^ ""■ '" *'"'' *• '"•"er over and TO, i, hearsay. He m.ad. iL op." to » r S""'"™' »"'' ' •"««'« "»'I» •" "Jr- to Mr. Cooper. Mr. Cooper and he had ,hoe„„ver..ta: G12 Angus M. Tlwm Q. RelVrence has ln-en mailo to your eviilenco before the Senate Comniitloo ub to the enquiries that you had made about Mr. C. N. Armstronj,''^ claiiu, and a portion of your evidence wai (juutecl. Will you refer to pa^je 18(> of your printed evidence before (lie Senate Committee, and say if you were alni) put the following (juentions and answered as follows : " Q. The only other question is whether or not vouchers were produced to you ? " A. The only vouchers were Mr. Light's certiticates. I might explain that when the " statemtnt was presented it was certified by Mr. Riopel and Mr. Robitaille and Mr. Leduc " my present engineer, in whom I have every conlidence. He was in Quebec at the time " and went into the matter." A. Yes, Sir. Q. You had then at that time the assurance of Mr. Leduc that the claim was correct ? A. Yes, Sir. By Mr. Hall: - Q. Were you aware that Mr. Leduc had been Mr. Armstrong's engineer for a number of years 7 A . I heard so. Q. These certiticates of Mr. Light did you examine them sufticiently to see if they were estimates of work done or the estimates of what Mr. Armstrong mi^'ht be entitled to under his contract, if he completed it? A. No, I did no" Q. You have also stated that you were anxious to get through the negotiations in Quebec here in April last because you thought you were at the mercy of the old shureholders. A. It might be that they would take advantage of their position. Q. Were you aware at that time or had you been informed that the present Govern ment had a short time before introduced legislation by which the Government could, under an Order in Council, take away the charter of any railway comoany incorporated by the Legislature ? A. I had been informed that there wa^ such ai act. Q. And had you been informed that Mr. Mercier, the Premii r, had declared in the House, in the introduction of this bill, that it was for the purpose of dealing with such companies as the Montreal and Sorel Railway Company and thr Baie desChaleurs Railway Company, because the shareholders were maintaining possession of the road? A. I heard something to that ellect. A. A little of it ? A. Something. Q. Enough to put you on your guard ? A. Yes. Q. Now, you have referred to the present company completing the road. I understand you mean from Metapedia to Paspebiac? A. Yes. Q. I understood you to say that the bonds would be worth 75 cts to 80 cts on the dollar with the Local Government guarantee, and the company would have to pay for that guarantee ? A. Certainly. Q. Can you say how much you would have to pay. If I understood you, you would have to pay ten years interest ? A. I bol Q. Then net value of A. Yes. Mr. Heiq Q. Now, panics had y A. Oh, I Q. Had J person tell yi disallowed by A. Mr. H said they had By Mr. / Q. Becaui A. They ' Q- I supp^ A. I don't And furth JAMES C upon the Holy By Hon. 3l Q. You arc A. Yes, Sii Q. How loi A. Since 1' Q. How uii A. Some 5t Q. How lor A. I have I Q. Approxi company '' A. Previoai Q. Yes. A. I think Q. Were th A. No, only Q. How mu A . Into the Q. Yes. James Cooper 618 A. I believe it ligi.rea at /orty-ono cents. • Q.rhen forty -one cents (Itjdiicte.l from the iaofi vain.. ,.ffV,„ I a ... net value of the bo.uls, thiity-four ^^^u^ °*^ '^''"''^ 8^^« "« ">« A. Yes. Mr. Biiijue:— A. Oh I don't know who told me about it. I lieard about it ai«alIowed by the Federal Grr'.ment ' "'"' '"^' ''"^ "'"•« '^''^^ ""^ that it would be said they L'd:riJ>';Ttrt::!f. "" *'**■ -"' ''^- ^'-^^^ ^^'^ ™^ ^^^'■-'i Mr. Armstrong By Mr. Hall:— Q. Because it was «ftra vires of the Legislature and would be disallowed ' A. I don't know anything about that. aisallowed .' And further deponent saith not. erchant, being duly sworn JAMES COOPER, a^nd 50, of the Vity of Montrea' upon the Holy Evangelists, deposed as follows :- By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidmn :— A. Y™, S."' ■"■■"""' °' '"' ="« -« '='""— ««"»»■ C.™pany. .re yo„ „„., Q. How long have you filled this position ' A. Suice ti.e 6th of May last. Q. How niiiny shares do you hold? A. Some 560, 1 believe. Q. How long have you held them "> company " ^ ' "®'"' "" ^"6 6th of May, in the old A. Previoas to the 6th of May » Q. Yes. A. I think there is two hundred. Q. Were they paid oflf? A. No, only ten per cent. Q. How much money have you paid into this concern ? A . Into the stock ? Q. Yes. tl.! . lirf If 614 James Cooper A. The stock was transferred to me. Q. But personally, how much money have you paid into the concern ' A. Well, I don't think I should be asked, at this period, to answer this question. Q. You have put money in it ? A. Yes, considerable. Govir:r [he ^^^f A^ii"^;^ °^^"^^"°- -'^^^'^ '-' "P '« '^^ — with the by Mr". Irmttronr' '""^ ""'''' ''''''' ''^'" '^" '"'"'' ^"' '''* ''"'^'' *° "'^ "*'^"'*°" Q. When ? .mifab" r." • enToftbrt^"'' " '"" ■"">-''" ■'*™"r. l.».„„ r did not .,ri™ Q. What passed ? wouMnotToll'it''HfTr'''f '^""''"•'*'°"^'"*" *^° '"'^"^ '^^ '^H -^ that I reenneeotrniL ^^ Macdonald has mTxed wUh it aflu T t iTn ' '" '^""^^'^"^"^'^ «^" ^^ich I sai.l I did not wish to be mixed with It at all. I was a httle anxious of courae, being a large creditor of the estate nXch MrT^r '^n "' '*'•'"' ' *"'"'' -^^"^ *^« '-' --^ in February oh first k Ter o";earTa.Krfa7k: h"";r "^V^"'' '' ' '"' '^^" ^"^"^' '^"^ ^^^^ ^im for a num- and he toTd mr ba t I u7: ""^ '™' ^°"^^ *° ^''^^'^^ "P ^^^ «'"« ^^^ ^haleurs matter Well then-the reason I bring this in is that after that Mr. Armstrongstill followed me up to look into the matter, and I suppose my rea,on for doing it was I w^a ar^c di^or for a considerable amount and I had dealings with Mr. Armstrong for four o five yearf- some times as much as $150,000 in a year-that is in rails of course, which r n un o a hi:r T?"?' r' ' '"^^^ '^'""^'^ ^^^^^ ^^'" f-- ^^y --tenals and I wis Try Sal tc^ help h m. Then I said : " Now. Mr. Thom ie my financial man. He is pret y careM and shrewd in what he has to do, and I will turn you over to Mr Thom 1 1 if 1.1 n I arrangement, that will be satisfactory, I will be willTng lo go il "'' " "''' "^" In about a week or ten days from that time I met Mr. Macdonald and once again nut the question to him while we were taking lunch at Freernan's-in fnct he inti J«ted to me ntt :rwS;Tim an5r'k'Vi"*'^r"'--'r«- '™« ^'^'-^ -^--^ to hte an the ^.p..S:;p^^^^^ and I have only as security bonds of the road which were transferred to me some 03 months prev,ously "-and I felt that if the road would not be taken u^by any bX and thit tS n tLlitTm"^^ M k "'" ^'""" ^'^'^ P'"^*^' ""' ^^•''""'^ would'becVm J worthless uZ * Z '* *!^' ''°™' measures to protect myself if he was going to Enirland and leav „g It. Tha was the origin of the matter. From that time forth I left thl matter ht L heT >^.^ '' ^fr""' '^'^* '^ "'^« '"'^^^ ^'^'"P^'^"^ '- deal with it than I w„ i fac , he had taken a 1 these pretty large transactions into his care, and during that negotia tion, I never received any word from him, but I had Mr. Lonergan go down' twice durtg James Cooper 615 going into it in the Lt place °"^'" ™^ '"''^"^ ^^"''^ °'' ^^^ ™'^«er and Q. Did Mr. Loncrgan and Mr. Laflamme meet Mr. Thoni here ? A, I know of nothing .further except what I have said. ^. ihat 18 all you know ? A. I telegraphed that telegram to the Hon. Mr. Garneau youL;^'^ '"^'"'" " *'^ ""^'^-^ ^-"^^ ^^P'-^-ent, Exhibit No.l24. the one to which ™y ittr''u:io';^f:;mt:^^ncfrn^^^^^^^^^ ^« -*-^ -<»- Williamson .ho will all become'dSrn the m^^^^^^^^^ ^^'^^ ^^ ^-- A fh?/°T\'^"''r *° "'''" gentlemen up to that time? O ■ VVhpn' !'°T''' ^^^ '"^"^'' ^'"""g »he interim. Govelmentwrr"'' *' ^ '^'^^'^'^ ^^^^ ^^ -^ •<^- what the contract with the gotttJrCe^Jtttmpa'n^^^^^^^^ ^>efore we could at thttfryruTertMsti;:^^^^^^ ^^- ^^ --« of its terms working? ^-^^^ telegram to Quebec, of the contract under which you are now A. I was aware that it was to be transferred . bene^JoTr: TZSJ^ '''''' " '^ ''' responsibilities you were ..su.ning and the in tht nXr""" "' '' ''""^' "^ ^°''°'*«^' ^^- ^----- I depended mostly upon him A ?!*! r t"°'' ^.^ If "^rg^" wa« going to the States ? hadbt!:eVt'irsrk''™"'^'^'^^'^^'^^-«^«^^^^^^^ *« Florid,. he A. oX'^'heTirlir h'"'"'^ """' ^'''^^ '^""^ «f ''"« «-^r-ct? hereancfrLttir;:!;: TnT '^'°" "" ^"'"^ ^"' '^^'^^^ ^ -"^ '^^- ^^-er.an down his daiSt '°" '^'^^ '^°"""^"°" "^^"^ '^'•- •^••-^-"^ -'h reference t , the settlement of A. In my office ? Q I don't care where. Anywhere " A. I might have had ; I won't \"y sure. Q. Can you not recullect that ? A. I couldn't recollect it as a fact. I- < ,L; ! 't V- ■'■■ m ■ (i ■ i t ■ ' Q. Did you arrive at the figures nf S!i7c: r,f,n . * A. ft was done through m^^rll^^^^' °^ "^« '' ^"^ ''^-"^^ o'^ers ,„* u f Q. Are you acquainted with Mr SuS? ™'' ^'^°°'* remember. Q.- '^iZf^Tl^^'^ '^' ''' ^'''^ ~> -eting. on the 6th of May the ctrL:;"' '' ^^ '' ''' ^-«^- ^ '^^n^ ^ -t him in the genera, entrance there,-in Q. What was he doing there? A. I don't know; I think I met him there. I ^o .'?' ^"^ ^'T''' ^''^ y^"-- co'^P'^ny or meetinir ' aftert^'^'^'"^--^--- ^ ^t i.m th Jre, I tS^or i „., ...e met him in the A TtlsT *'^^P"'P°«« of your introduction? ^^^ A.^.ust as you m,ght mtroduce any other gentleman who might be standing alongside Q. Did any business conversation take place ? A. No Sir, nothing at all. We went up to the club. Q. Had you any after negotiations with Mr. Pacaud ? A. How's that? Q. After that interview with Mr. Pacaud ? A. None whatever. Q. Disclosing the fact? James Cooptr 617 It appeared I think in a paper i„ Quebec here and he read U A. Disclosing the fact, to me. or t^^-be'orihl't'^ ""'• ^^"^^^^"^ '^' "-^ h- - ^>« agent or representative here ayear Q. I mean in reference to this business ? O WhlT'!^,''' ^' ^■'" ^""'■^^""g with Mr.Pacand A St hf '''" 'r* ^'^^^'"^ '^"'^'•^ °'t^e fact? A. Thathe was working with Armstrong ' y- Yes, in this business here. A. I suppose two years ago. Q. In connection with the new syndicate ? A. I might have known it in Anril T Hr^.,.f i took for granted that he had somebody to represenfwm T""'^ '' '' " *^^"S ^ ^^^^ys importance to it. ^ '" represent him down here. I didn't attach any .he 2..r r """"""^ '•"•*" •>»' >•"■■ ^- i" ««.rd .0 M,. P«.„a.. co„„.c«„„ „u,. A. I think not, Your Hononr, Q. It has been stated by Mr. Macdonnlrl fv, » • share in your contract you a.ked him for $50 000 '"nn""'''"'' *° * '"'1""^* °^ ^ '« *^ '^ke a A. He had an interviewVith ^. ; ^"""- ^° >'°" ^'oncur m that statement ? toknowwhatpositionrulSe'"hri?th?:nipt^^^ Sn ";or ran^t^^/^trtirr i^ ~ ^^^^ said : .• have you any propositiSrmake -" Hrslj^' ' ?«"" *'*^" ^"'^'*-" >•-•"" wa3 that I should give him a third interest in ,?! ^ ^^^^ P™P°«^*'°" ^e had to make made up my mind that the director! wouS nott ""' ^""^ '"^'"^ '^' supervision. I -upon a trnnsaction of that kinTloZ I m .h:"'' T. T^ ''''' ''''' '''-' ^^ ^ ^"tered $150 000, but only for the purpose of d L; Ig h m rtf ' X 1'"^'-' '""'^ ^^ ' ^'<^~ m the paper that he made a statement Zt T . . '*" ''^''* ^« ^""'^l give. I read company. He told me he had aUrAmd ocke^u: in th T' • °^ ^'^ ^■^^"'^•- «^' ^^e money to put into it. ^°^^'* "P '" the Temiscouata road and had no *150,SKr^^^^"™^^*"^--'--^^i» -menttothe statement with reference to the A. Well I wa. quite prepared to receive a counter offer. Q. \^ hat was the $150,000 for .™d ti rvSr^hitrur;"" ' '""-"^ ■• •» "• ™ «■« wh,-., „, .he c„mp.„. If- 4 1 t>18 James Cooper (Question repeated). A. I have no recollection of it. Q. You did i make any such statement ? Q. But 80 far as you were personally concerned ? dealtsfufhare doTir^^"""' "'^"^■"^'' '''■ ' ^^°"'" ^"^^ ^-'^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ a good Q. We would like to see your contract with Hogan? A. Yes Sir, I will have it brought down here on Tuesday. Q. We will give you the opportunity to be heard against it By Mr. Hall .— Q. Do I understand you to say that when Mr. Thorn was down here in Marr-h «n i '"i Non:'rt'r'' *'r^ "r ^"^'^"^ ^°" ^^^ - correspondence tuh Lf '"' A. JNone that I remember of. A fthShrMr''?" '""^ '"f "' t ^""^^P™"' *^^^ ^' ^«"* i" *» *he Government ? O T) d Mr '^•'"' ^'°"^^' '^''* "P ^'*h ^i'" ^ ''^' ^ I c*" remember Q. Did Mr. Lonergan give it to you? '""leuiuer. A. He may have. Q. Have you got it now ? A. No, I suppose it is ou record. Q. Have you got the copy thit Mr. Lonergau showed you ? A. No, I have not. ' A. No, fr'. '^""''''" ^^'"'"-icate anythingto youin writing about the negotiations Q. Did Mr. Laflamme ? A. No, Sir. Q. Have you ever seen this claim of Mr. Armstrong's that was settlci for $ 175,00.) ? Q. The company has not got a copy of it '/ A. They must have had a copy of it. Q. And you have never seen it ? A I was told that Mr. Light had certified to it and Mr. LeDuo and I can« l«r„ i m were the best judges of the merits of that contract. ' '®™ ' ^'''•'' Q. Did you ever take occasion to look at Mr. Light's certificates ? A. No Sir. I have hot seen them. Q. You have not seen them ? A. No Sir, i have not. Q. When did A. He did nc Q. It was aft( A. He did no Q. When the back to Montreal. A. He might He was in Toront( Q. If you wer be brought before ; A. I depended and I considered h understood more U Q. I think he , that he had settled A. I couldn't f Q. Do you recc A. $290,000. Q. When did y A. Armstrong I not sure which. Q. You said in ft little alarmed aooi A. Yes, Sir. Q. You were a\^ to cancel the charte A. I wish I had Q. Was it that a the cancellation of tl A. Yes Sir. Q. So you were £ charter when you hai A. I was afraid tl Q. On account of A. On account of spade being put upon Q. Do you recdlle on the 23rd of April, 1 A. It may have b( before me a couple of Q. You first saw i A. Yes Sir. Q Will you look a and state if you know i or not. A. I couldn't say. Jamas Cooper eie- A. He might have been hack sometime after thlt tt fle was m Toronto and in Quebec. I coZn'f rolitiW sfv' "" ^'' '""""' everywhere. bebrtgU^'bre^r^ ^"'^ ^^''^ «^"^--- «-h a large c/aim as .175,000 would natural,, A. I depended upon Mr Thom Hp } K and I considered he would be betted fitted for the" ilJI^' ''"t^"";'^ ™'^" '^»d very careful, understood more legal points than I did ''' "^^" ^ ^'^'^ ^^ ^"'1 that he thatth:;;^^^^^tm:s;;^=;:sr ^^^-^^^ ^^- ^^- «-t ten you A. I couldn't fix the date. *-i'o,uuu . A. ?SSo"°°""'' "" '*' '■»»"■"«' »' ■ A™..ro„g., „,.ta , Q. When did you hear thut ' no. ttZT" """"'^ "■"' '" ™ """"« "'« "S<..Mo„,, »o80,00« o.. .090,000,-1 am . .4 ■^^:!!'^uz:z^^ '■ f r^"-'.' "... yo„ „,„ A. Yes, Sir. '"""* "^<5 cancellation of their charter ? to cateuLTar r ^'^ "^'^^"'"" ^^^ '-" ^"^-'-ed giving the Government power the cancellation of the charter? ''"" ^'^^ '"^^^'^ ^'^"^io" '^ moment ago to A. Yes Sir. Q- So you were aware at the time thnt fv,„ n charter When you had this conv::rontif;oh^^^^^^^^ *'^^ P-^" *<> --el the A. I was afraid the charter would be cancelled. Q. On account of the legislation ' Q. Y» ta. .aw i. a couple of da,, beta .h, .„„„», reeling, A. I couldn'l; say. .1 4- i u 'fill G20 James Cooper wu oi 1U8 letters. The fact is we see each other so often Sy Mr. Amyot :— Q. You hi.d full confidence in Mr. Thorn ? A. I had implicit confidence in him finally paid ^ ° complete the road so that your claim would be y^^^^^::^:^iz^rt:^t^:^ ^^ ^^^^^ '-^ ^^-^ *- - ^^-e H was properly managed I beHeve fL i ffl V^^ P'""'^"^ ^' '^ 8°"^' enterprize if would be a profitable fnvestmentTn the fure '^ '"' ""' "'^'^^ ^eve.oped'and it publSiJt^res'rweV/ ""'' '"' "^^'^ '« ^" «- -terest of yourself privately but i„ the and itwo^ldTe': lerT^tlitb^e'^C^o"" °*"P'-"-.*° ™«^e ^^^ road a profitable one down there. ^ ' P'^"' ^''^ '"''^'"^^ *o""«^« i"«tead of going elsewhere to go' A Yp^r n""' '" *! ""'^ ''"'"P*"^ ^^-^'e seriously with you^ the road i^^^/^rmi^^^^^^^^^^^^^ We have been both over Al^^^l^rnhL;:!"""^-^^ -iinMon..,. «attt ara„rDryrl:n',rthr; ™^"''^" ^^ ^^^ «— -' °^Q-'- on the O ■ bX "".T" / °""' "" ^'^^ ''''™''^ °"°« ^^f«^« *^« «*i'ed for England A Nott n h "Tr^*'"" "'^"' "^ '^" '"^^ ^''-^ ""^ y- -e Ly o them ^ A. JVot till the matter was closed. ' Q. Did you write to any of them ? A. I sent them a telegram. Q. Besides that conversation with the Premier nn,l t>,» ♦ i or see any of them ? f remier and the telegram you did not write to A. Oh, I put the matter in the hands of Mr. Thom. Q. You know of no corrupt bargain ? A. I know of no bargain. Q. And you made of it an ordinary financial transaction ? A. Exactly, Q. Nothing else ? A. Exactly. f» E^gtanVlfelermcX*!' "" ""' """'' """"" '" "-• ""^ '"a, he .» leaving Q. For Europe ? ■By Mr. Hall :- Jamfs Cooper 621 Q. Who was the spokesman i* ployed him to t»ke Ihe mitler up ™ ''""• '""' °' '=™'" ' """"""J- em- not worth much. ' ^^ ''^^ ^ "«' completed these debentures are was toL^Sl'yZZll "" "' ""'"°'" ^^«^^^''^>^' -^ '^^ -'-med me that the line Q. From miles 60 to 80? A. With rails down on \i Tha a i theBn•dgeCbmpany...behindwihtt'con^r'"° Wh' Tf /'^ '"'^''- Unfortunately bonds will be worth n^ore money 70 cts Timder UnTt'". f ' '' ""'^'^ "^° ''"'"P^^'ed the Q. At th . time you forn.ed the new omn^n^^^^^^^^ '^ 'f " '''''''^ ''' *hem once. Before you formed the new company whe^theVoldtLTtT *^" ''"'^ "^^^ ^^e" ? since two years when the works had been stonnedW , ' ^^"''^ "^^^^ ^^^^ ««mpany A. I would not value them at 20 cts "'"''' ""''' '^'^^ ^"^'^ ? ^ 1 S^tZy. ''^ "'' ^^'""^^^^ '' ^°"'^"«'- ^b« ™ore the bonds will be worth V By Mr. Hall:— 1 wtrLZtT ""' "'""" ""«» »■ ^'™» ."<■ .he co„p.„, , .™„ge„e„« tha. I have „,«,, i„ reg^St *l\„.tae.."' '° "'™ '"'^ ""' "'■'"• ■By ffon. jjfr. /wsWce Davidson :— A. Certainly. And further deponent saith not. Bl . \^.\ ^22 IIP? P. L6gari Mr. BHque :~ private account by n.eans or^^:Z^ZfTS TT ""'' """'' ^ '^^P™- *« ^^^^ ateps to repel that insinuation as .oon rporble '^P^''^'"^"*- ^ «» instructed to take cheque on the Jacques Cartier Bank and ll' , It. * ^^"* '"''' '"^'^^ ^^^ "^^ans of a papers to he allowed an opportuni / fo p7ace 'h" .:o7h"7'''"? be published in th employee is here ^vith the bordereau itself and Mr m ^ , ^^^'''^ ^'^^ Commission. The cheque. The deposit was made by ^eM , ou.f 'T ' '''"''^'^ ^''^ ^^e stub of the by Mr. Mercier himself. ^ """' ""^ "" «^^^"« drawn on the Jacques Cartier Bank Your Honours understand thnt nnm;„ ^ • ■ on becomes of very considerable LCr'nrren" U TfT- '''' *'^ «"^^^-' '-n-- Rwen us to repel these insinuations as'^soonipossTbie. """ ''"* occasion may be Hon. Mr. Justice JettS ;— of M, . B«,u.. """"' '• »"»™1 by the commWon „po„ .pe„i«| .pp,i^„„„ ■Bj/ if/r. BSique :~ Q. Have you the lepositslip? A. Yes, Sir Q. H.ve ,„„ .h,- „Hgi„., ,ep„.U .„p ,, „,,., ,^, ,,^, ^^ ^^^^ ^ rtich overdrew hf. acomm. I belfeve- """ °"'"" "'°"»"'» «»« h-ndred dolt' A. Ye., « .omewh.t .imilar anient I believe A. Yes, Sir, Q. Up to ho A. About fc Bv Mr. Vaag Q- I see tlia A. Yes, Sir. Q. A cheque A. Yes, Sir, i Q. Can you c A. No, Sir. Q. Not at nil A. Not at all Q. Was it yoi A. No. Q. What is t\ A. It was the And further t ALEXANDR Mr. Mercier being (This witness i By Mr. Btique Q. You were i secretary ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you an A. I am such s Q. Will you tat state who prepared A. It was, I wh( Q- It is in your A. It is in my v Q. Are your inil A. Those are m' Q. When did yo A. The deposit s which Mr. Mercier le Q. Will you 8tat( that deposit slip ? A. It was a cheqi at Montreal. Q. Have you the A. I have tiie ch« Q. Will you exhii A. This is the sti Q. Will y.ou read S»»WM»« Alexandre Climent Q. Up to how much ? A. About four thousand dollars, I suppose. Bv Mr. Casgrain :— A.- Ye?2"rz;r ir rtr 'r'-- "^"^' ^^ ^-^-^ ^ Q. Can you' describe the deque J '"'^ ''""^'' ^^"'^ M""*-'^'- A. No, Sir. Q. Not at nil ? A. Not at all. Q. Was it you who received the deposit ? And further the deponent saith not. ALEXANDRE CLEMENT of the Htv^fn u ■oy Mr. BHqtie :~ ' Q. You were in the month of March last ih. vr secretary ? ^^''^h last, the Honourable Mr. Meroier's private A. Yes, Sir. Q. And you are still such ? A. lam such still. -^^^iZ^^ZZ:^t^ '' ''- ''''-' «''^ ^^-'-'^ - Exhibit No. 137. and A. It was, I who prepared that deposit slip. H- It is in your writing ? A. It is in my writing. Q. Are your initials there ? o" WhT r! "^ '"'""'" ^- ^- ^- Clement. Q. When did you make that deposit slip ? .i...iS Z '"" ""•' °°'°™"'" ""P" ™ ^eP-iW i„ the C.i„e d'Econo^ie ^.H .. Mtt'rr ' "^°"- -' "'• "«-" •»> "» private .coo™. i„ .w ,^„„^^,, ^^, A. fSr^cCeru ^- "°"°""'"' »"■ «™-., che,„e be., Q. Will y.ou read the entry there ? if ) 1' 624 Alexandre Cl&ment A. Thi8i8h..w it reads: "No 44 in w i „ ' ~ y. Who wrote that cheque stub? A. It was I. Q- At wliat time ? A. On the tenth of March. Q- Was it you who prepared that cheque ' A. It was I wo prepare.! the cheque. A.- izrs. It::;';,:: rrr,"--; ^™ ^"^"«' •"« «-»^-- «. N„w. will y„„ ,to,e w 'f,™ ■"» '"»' ' """te the ch8,„e. (Private) Quebec, 10th March, 1891. Mb. Clement, Secl'yo/lheHon.Mr.Mereier, glj. Montreal. Of th'^ie^Sn^le^^^^^^ with the consent of the President away lor some days, -ve would acceptUleSraft on h^""""'"""' Mr. Mercier was go „' three thousand dod.rs, such overdraft to be pl'lThe Z'T*'^'' °^^^"^« *" 'he sum"? the end of the week. Including the cheoueVw > *''^^°"• ^''- Mercier's return, that is Tt would be obliged to you if you lould se^^htt l!^" ''^"^''^' '^^^^'d'^^t is near $3 632 70 The president and I took it upon oui^o allot^^^^^ " T'^ '° '=''^- *hat overd^t accommodate Mr. Mercier althoi.rrh tl , ■ ^® o^'erdraft for a few dav« «o T* -h thing. I tried to teleX^t ' hS S tt'l 'T ^'^^-'e dotl pe^ been requested to write. Before closing a irmet e '°"'^ ""* '^'"'^ y^^- -"d I have success of your voyage. ^' ''"°'' ""^ *° «*P'<^«« toyouray best wishes for ^he And believe me Yours very respectfully (Signed) L. C. MARCOUX. I produce a copy of that letter as Exhibit No nfi t ,. ^'''" ^'"''"" 18 a copy I got from the Caisse d'Econo "e A^T^h f" • "''l^'^ ""' '^"'^ **»« ^"ginal. That on the tenth in the forenoon, I was -cTLptL^tT;^;^^^!^^ ---- Mr. Marcoux Montreal, lith March 1891 Caisse d'Economie, Quebec. Ti.e dep..it should have been made yesterday, or will be to^ay. (Signed) ALEX. CLEMENT. A/exaru/re Clement (M I produce this copy whioh r r , ^'^^^^''^''==== not kept a copy of the delpatch Th. """"^' "'^ ^'^'"^ "^ *»>« Caiase d'Eon T-o day« alterward. a't W J^^ ^'^ !« '"-^^'^ Exhibit N0T39 "" "« ' ^'"^ -orkI.ceH.edthef..„owin„ette.fro;„M.-.Ma.eou. (IVivate) Quebec, lith March I891. Mb. Alex Clement, ^'^'yo/Hon..yrr.Merder, Montreal Sir, during his absence, it will not h«' '"^"'y '''^ *« be deposited in hn "'""•'"• ^"'^ '^ «• the overdraft. """ "°' ^' "«««««*ry to make a new Issued ni Louis- A. .JKn Judge of the ( of the Superic stances which Act 54 Viuturi The thirty- «*'id ninety-one, Upon the apj 28th of October f( It is ordered : That subpoem the production : 1- Of all cabl neau, Charles Lanj by Hon. Mr. Merci Also of all I Charles N. Arinstn duction of these m, to Counsel and fyle 2. All statemer received, deposited one dated 2nd of Ms other dated 10th of 3. Of all deposi senting his deposits . CANADA, Dtntnct 0/ (Quebec KOYAL COMMISSION '•' ^''"'''"^-^ ^'^ilvvay Company! 18th SITTING. Present • -eHo„o.a.eM..I..ee. ,„,_ " ■■ <^,""'^-F«ancois.Georgks Baby " I. Order. ^ommisdonerg. 8. An .u.e„,e„^ With It " '" "" """■''■' ■=—!»« 3- Of all depcit ,Ii„ 7 ' ■ "'*■"'"• '» l""'' «nd eS„ed eT"' """ "■» n X I- ^ ' F 628 C/^oplias Beausoleil to tht Z^^T^^:T''''^' '''''-'''' '- amountB.f... one account to another of JiSV-li^rrdTe^^S^hT.' Tf in the Merchant. Bank of Canada, between the 10th therewith September. 1891, with cheques and deposit ^lips in connection .rJf' f ""''''■^"'■''^'•^ f"^ *he production of papers covered by paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 will be granted on lurtber cause being shewn. ^ *- « i , nuu o wm ue Quebec, 31st October, 1891. CLEOPHAS BEAUSOLEIL, of Montreal, advocate and niember of the Hou.e of Com- inons, aged iorty-s.x years, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, do7h dej^le a"d (Witness is examined u|,on the special application of Mr. BC'ioue ) 87 7?nd «7tn^"'H ''!' ""'" rV"^"" communication of the two drafts produced as Exhibits wh!tpurpo;eV «^'^^^-^«*h-"-- drafts were drawn by you on Mr. Pacaud and for • , t ?a' T "^-'f" ^?'^"'' ^^■'' "'"^ ^''•10 aretwodrafts which I dr. w on the twentv eighth otApnl, e.,hteen hundred and ninety-one (1-Jl) on Mr. Ernest Pacaud ilTont- quence Of arrangements made in July, eighteen hundred and ninety, betw.enV LegTs deleated candidate in the election for the county of Maskinonge in the month of Jum 1890 the Honourable Mr Mercier and myself. Mr. Legris, having been defeated came to Vende; an account in Montreal, at the Government offices, to the Honourable Mr. Mcrcie oTue reasons or his defeat, and he alleged that there had been corrupt practices mo han ufl^ L"; m" ci '"■;" ' ''"'r • '"' ''•'^" '^ •"^'1"'"'*> ^^^ - 'dldate elected, M Les r Mr Mercier sen lor me and it was agreed that if M... Le,ris brought affidavits in suppor 01 what he stated, that contestation would be undertaken and, Mr. Mercier perso.Hlv would take the responsability of the matter. ^vieicier personally Some days after Mr. Legris returne.l with the proof that Mr. Mercier had asked for 1 rdXrntLred." ''- ""™^^" '^--•^^^ ^^ -^ ^^^ ^-^^^^d that the eJion Hpnn^lr ^n'VTfv^ promissory note for eleven hundred dollars ($1,100) to make the CaE rank """"''' "'"'""'^ ' endc^ed and had disconnt;d al the Jacques. In the month of September, eighteen hundred and ninety, I drew a draft on the Hon Mr. Mercier personally for the sum of two hundred and ttlty dollars ($2,10 K pay abfeTn thirty days, which draft Mn Mercier accepted and paid. On the iwelfth of March on the eve of his leaving for New York, I had an interview with Mr. Mercier,-! have been his part ner lor eleven years,-I hnd an interview with him respecting office matters, and Isp ,ke to l^m about the disbursements to be made in the Maskinong^ contestation. The Honourable wantmory." "" " "'"'''' ""' '"'• ''^°^"' and you will draw on him if you On the twenty-eighth of April the proof having been made or nearly made having to pay witnesses, stenogr • .lers and other disbursements which amounted to a very arge s^m I drew two drafts on Mr. Pacaud. informing him that I was authorised by Mr Mecfi toTo' Tcieitd L taS ""^ ""''' '" *-"*y-^^*hof ApriUtten and thirt^ dlyf .Tii:; wet I may printing tl By ^^r Mr. Be Baie dcs CI A. I ca nor part wl person rcsp Q. You A. I di( acter of the Q. You A. I bel get the Baie communicat Q. Was A. I thij Q. You 1 A. I kno to tho hotel I Q. You d A. I beli( of April ; but as I was alwa By Hon. . Q. Have i A. No, 1 tl he could not fi By Mr. Bi Q. You di A. No. And furthi JEANCH] trar, aged forty- By Hon Mi Q. You are A. Yes, Yo Q. And you Jean ChrymsKmie Langel >er (J2!> _ ^ '"ay aJ'I that since Mr. Mei.-iPi-M ,•-*, t , By Mr. Casgrain ;— « Mr. Beausolei], I believp f 1. .t v.,,, „ BaiedesCha,eurski,4;tX^^^^^^^^^ A. I came to Quebec in the mnnfV. Ta , ^ Government ? ^ b ine nor part .hatever^either:i:h^rG:e,ni;'l'"i'": ' '-' "" '^--'-Ige. connection ' person respecting that matter. '"*' ^'- ^™«trong, Mr. Thorn, or any other a- onhe^:is;::i; rr,^;jr;r::r ^ --- - --e or the cha. Q. Yon did not know at the time what was going on > .et th; Bai:r ^ir H:ifw:rbu;rdStra:^^ -- ^e wa^negotiating to commumcate to me what he intended to do no lit UZT"''' ""'' "''"'''' "^ ^'d'he Q. W.S that before he came to Quebec 'or Z^ f' '''''■ A. I thmk It was before. Q. You were here on the twenty-third of April •> to -0 hot^i::!;:^^^: --^ - -th^ -^ ^^ .-n wi„ ..w me to go Q. You do not remember whether it I \ 7 """^ *'" y"'' «* 0"°e. ^ A. I believe thatlcame h re Le tr" ''^ "'^"^ ^^^'^"' ^ of April ; but that had nothing t^t^TtMhlr""^; '''''u'' ^"•"'"^"''ed on the twenty-ninth as I waa always ignorant of it ^n.UUhTt at eCr^ '^^ --'ofwhichlwaslnrt By Hon. Afr. Justice Davidson ;- Q. Have you the letter which you wrote to Mr. Pacaud ? he cotld^:;; St ""'■ ^"^^"^ '« '-^ *•- ^' ^ he did look for i, at lea. he told me so. and By Mr. BHque :— Q. Yon did not keep a copy of the letter v A. No. And further deponent saith not. I f.j »• JEANCHRYSOSTOMELANGPTTPP f»u ^. By Hon M,. J„^i„ „^,j :_ "«•"•'•■ 'l»tMepo,e «„d„y ,. ,rii»'- II -1 r 680 Jean Chrysosf.dme Langelier A. In the .„.,™ , of 5h in CTrld ' "I "'^^T'" '"""'""' ""^ »'"* (1890) - eigliteen hundred und eijrhty-nine fl8S0) fft . ^ ^^' ^" ^^'^ '"^"th of November -les,th.ais.onthesectLith t wtfi^ll^^^^^^^^ '"^^ ^-l^'-" on the first six y • M-^Farlane ; in eighteen hundred and nineS igl r " "T" «^ ^°»«truction under Mn trong's workmen on section K • and fh tf . "''' *° ^'''y ^^^ cJaims of Mr Arms- the whole road. ^ ' '"^ '^'' *>'"^ '' ^'^^ '« Pay everything that was due upon Q- Did you make any reports on the matter ? Q- Are these reports in your hands ? vouchers and the wliole complete. es.ablishmg what was paid, with the receipts, Q- Tlie Ih-st report was not nrintori n, • , A. Yes, Your Honour '''''""' '""^'^ '"^ section K ? Q. Now in eight.en hundred and inet; 1 'j^om °"""""- A. Yes, Your Honour. ^ "- ' ^^'^^ J-^ere you again named commissioner ? Q. When, if you please? Mr. Thorn's proposals. "^ "'^^ '^'^'^ "^ ihe Order in Council accepting a: t!;: ;::::;;::; : !;;,;• 7^-- ^-^^^d and ninety.. (.., . Q. Take eomi: ,^;s ;^^'; '"T'r ^"' "'"*^-""^ (^«^^^- Council V ^^hibits 1 and 2, and state whether that is the Order in named in'clro";L^"w;S^i'rdri;"co^^^^^^^^ ''' ^""°'' No. 238 that I was Q. Have you the Order in Council No. 237 there also' A. les. Q. The Order in Council IVd oq7 ... v,ouncu iNo. ..'37 was in connection with Jean Chrysostbme Langelier 681 A. Yes, Your Honour. 'I ?i: w H^r '■ '" '"' °- *■ -- - «'■ -™'-, . Q- You had met them ' at,on respecting the nature of the clainrrpl ,ilt'« ?.' ™' ^^^' ^^'^^^^^ ^o get inform the privileged claims. I tlien placed Mr Th ^ ^'""'^ *"« contractors or the comnan^ a Rreat deal of other information a bom th^orr^T'^? ^'^'^^'^ ^-^- ^e asked me'or' of the works, and so on. "'' '"'^^'' ^''^^ ^md of country it was, the condition ^ a: S: wH::::t;:;:;;:;:r^--«--^n.thesum^ des Chaleurs. "'^ ^^^ «-'-^ o^' e.ght yeai. I pass the summer at the Baie Q- And you gave Mr. Thorn all the information you had ' told him thaTT^rcSed'ttfth""" "^°" ''' -'^ «^ ^^eso debts and I al ^^• You know Mr. Armstrong who ha^ b.^^n .. •" A. Ye. it wa. the second tim. tllau^ '° T ' "'"'"""^ ' Q. Wa. there i„ your office or in vour han ,7 T "'" '' °""' ''^ "^ ^'S-" A. No. ''°"': '^'^"^'^ - '^''•''". coming from Mr. Armstrong ? Q. There was none ? A. None at all. Q. D. .h„ „„„e or.™ M«„ ... ,., .„, ,, ,„„.,..^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^_^ ^ Q. They often went to your office ? road, of the forty miles thaThtr '''" '^'^'"^^''^^ "'^^^ he had madeof th *"'/''° .> mues tnat there remained to make. "° °°*' of the I ■ !-■■ 632 Jean < hrysoatowe Langelier Q- He came to submit them to you •> A. Yes. Q. Seeing your knowledge of the locality ' - ' - A. Yes, Your Honour ^ on ,h*e ^^^S^lZZ!:^:-^""' ""■ " «'• ^""•"""^. »' M. r.e.„d, A. About ;■< Hr. Th„rhi,XS r *^ '°"'"""' ""^ "-"« »■'• Xhon,'s prop™., ,.„„ * itut; u ;': iX'Snir ''"' ■" "" ^'^ •» " »- ^^ -o" «. > Q. At what hour, do you think ? A. On the twenty-eighth ? Q. Yes, the twentv-eighth the Government and that proUbly thrOrtrTn CouncH uT ''^ '^^ agreement with accepting the proposals asmodifiedf after setrlin^^^^^^^ P^^^ *'^« "e^t day, Q. As^early as the twenty-third he had lofd ^tZT "''' ^'^ '""'^*^"- a: ?;'r ^^:^r;^r " ^^^ *^^"^^-^^^^^ -^ ^^« twenty-eighth . Q. Did you see Mr. Pacaud ? A. No, I never saw Mr. Pacaud. Q. You never saw Mr. Pacaud ? A., No, Sir, not at all. Q. Mr. Pacaud did not come with Mr. Thorn or Mr. Armstrong? A. He came once, the tirat timp • m- p j Armstrong? now Your Honour, I do not:LX;emem^^^^^^^^^ ««- and, as I stated just but I remember that from the very beXTin^ rbmt th ""iT'T^ ^"^ ^''^ M^. Thorn ; introduced to me in my office by Mr SZ Mr P« '^^™" ?'« "^ ^P"'- Mr. Thorn was who is looking aftertheBaiedes Clm uiXiwa^ an^riT '""^ *" T '' " ""''' '« ^^^ ^^on. So as you are perfectly familiar with aTtt i l^lt thaT "'"'T ^°™^'"'°™'^*>-'- him some mformation." Mr. Pacaud then left kit tha M>° A ""f ""* °'^^^* '' '^'^^ mornmg, but I do not remember exactly whether it wn«.^K ^™«'™"S car^o that same verj. pcsible that they were all three there togX "'" ''""' ' "°^^^^^' '' " W- 1 hat was at the beginning? A. No, Your Honour. Q. You did not see him on the twenty-eighth of April either ? A. No, n Q. Who A. On th morniiig, as ( had handed r Q. The p: A. The F. Q. Was tl A. fertaii Q. Was it A. The tir Q. What d A. I belie^ have some note of April, after t and, immediate asking what wai 10 o'clock, Mr. 1 the sum of one 1 April that Mr. T liy Hon. Mr Q- No officia A. No; it w( gave the tirst inft any instructions ( then, after receivi Department of Pi and Mr. Lepage ; ] Garneau. Then, was whether it wi and finally Mr. L( have no control, t Then, the mal and I was told tha Q. How many A. I believe t\ that letter from Mi far as I can remem Mr. Garneau 's offic( Q- And there y •A. Certainly, Y Jean Chrysostome Langeher 688 A. -No, not at all. ".on.i„E „ ,„ „ , „„ t,„ ,^1; ■ »• Thorn ™d M,. A™„„,„,, „, „,„,„ ^___ A. l-he i.rniona (l,y „r u,, ,,„,. |„.,, .,,„,.,. Q. w,. a., u., ,i„. „,„. .„.; ,„„ ;;j » ; »» .' w„ . „o„p,. „,„.,, ,.,„„ A. ( ertaiiily. "-'"hd . Q-Wa«itt].efi.tti„..,ouhaciheardofif. A. The hrst time I h.ard of it. Q. What date? havetme t;;' ^J'je uUTthat' 'XltT "' '^' '''' '''^"'•''' ^^^'^^^s even before that I o April, after the pa«si4 of the Sl^tCrtf:';^^ ^t Jason thet :t- third ' and, mimedmtely in the afternoon I wrote to M TH /' ^'™'''™"g h«nded me hi/daim % /fo/i. 3/r. Justice Baby:— Q- No official information haA i. A^^o; itwa.,You:rn „T;rrm:r^""^ 'u' ^^^-—^P^^'ic Works, gave the fir.t information of that claim to fhTlT ""'" ""''^"^- >* ^«^ L I believe who any mstructions to guide me as toihe natut ofr.r"'' '^^^ '-"^ ^^- I h.dnlt'tren then, after receiving Mr. Thom's letter nniiCr? ""' ^h'^h I would have to settle Department of Public VVorks rthe morn" , \^'^T>-S'^ claim, I went down to the' and Mr. Lepage; I presented that cLrnwhfch «?.'..'"'' '^^ Honourable Mr. Garneau Garneau. Then, these gentlemen dS'sse l!'? . ° T'^"^^ ^°^^ M""- ^esage and Mr wa. whether it was payable and if i Ts rfl t ' '" ^' ^'°"« "'''"»' it- The questbn and finally Mr. Lesage said : •■ W d iT j! 'fir k ''r"^^'^" ^P"'^^ '" ^r. Lesage abo t i have^ control, ^hey are the oni;';;!::::^^ -^''officer o^. '^e coLp:^;r^ Then, the matter remained there Afterw„..H ""''*'"" ^^^ '■**^^'- ^^ '« or is not due." and I .,^ told that the ^e,.nr.er:X;.^^X ;::Z''T' ''"'' '" ''' ''^P-^'"-*. Q- Howmany days before the twenty.ighth did^ll oec.rr "' '' '''' '''^''^- ' -titter Z:^Z^: riX^::: r-t- or the twenty.si.th. as I received far as I can remember, his answer was there .n^ \ ™°™'"g--on reaching my office as -. Oarneau- o.ce .- so that it was thet-t^S: Stl Zl^^Z!' ''' ^^^^ Q. And here you conferred with Mr. Garneau and Mr Lesage ? A . Certainly, Your Honour. ^ mi Jean Chrysoslome Langdier Q. Mr. GariieauV; Deputy ? A. Mr. Ganienu's Deputy. , Q. What happened between that .i^te and iV, r . nty-eighth •' A. I do not know what occurred • : ,vi8 fnl,l r> , ;/ ! u •not in my oftice... ^^ '"^'^ ' ■'" " ^"^ ^^ be paid. Of conrge I was Q. You did not know how the payment was to b. :nad,. v -ade by the Cn;,... b;;^^ ' '"''^ ^' ^'^''^ '^ ™^'^"'- °' '-^-"^"ce:, which would I. 1 Sbilo;"'"^ '•" "''*"''' ''^""^'^'^ '^' ^'^ Department of Public Worics ? a" fhfd'!'/I,h" ''' -T '^*'f^"^'''"^"*'^« liegi«trar? Department^.l"paSi;V'orkr'" *''' ^'"^ine^s. except in so la i as I wa. employed by the A Z- 'h! r"1 1'*'°'"" •^PP'^">t'"«"t as special officer? inseruetici,s ^^^'^^li^r^ ^^.n^r^ ^7^^^ -' ^ ^^'^^d to have instructions, but I had no reason to acceDtanvrrrL-,l/' ' '' ""' '^°«^^«^ t^'^se and I sut^itted it to the departm::;::^^ ClSon ' "^"' '°^" ^^^^ *^« ^^^'^ acceptd b^u'ruXntr.^" '''^' ''^"^^"''^ '^ ^^^ by" mean, of a letter of credit the t/^Z:'Z' ''"' '"" '''-' ''''' '^y P--- ^o the day on which it was paid or Q- The twenty-eighth'^ Q. >H,,d, would p.y the one !,„„<,,«, .„„ ,„,„,,.„,,, ,,„^„^ ^^„^^ ^^^^.^^^^ ^ A. Exactly. Q. Huw much did they come to ? ' A. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars (»280 0()0 ) credg hrdteSr ^"'"™^'' ""'■ "^"^^•-' ^^^ '^^ >«"- of credit or the lette. of ^ee4;:^' AS^^nr:^:^;^^-^:^ ^-^-- - .aune. . h.. Q- Who old you ? we were t liking about th it. o you, an offioial dooutneat ' A. It was in the departm Q- Was an official letter >. of credit were issued ? A. No. Q. Can you remember who gave you that information ? "'J, yoa that the letters A. It had Mr. Garnenn ; tion of finance Q' In youi A. In my j Q. Had yoi A. I Went c course of convei question of the Q- Now, abc A. In the fc Q. Had you A. Yes, in tl Q. When did for the payment ( '^- By the On Q. Mr. Grenie A. Yes. Q- To return t definitely told that was to be placed at A. It was at th we were talking ab( ifl was going to pa disposal and have gi in the course of con oftimes also— lean remember, there wa; amount. Q- Well, now, Si A. i\o,,YourHor Q- You did not s A. Yes. Q. VVhatdidyou A. On the twenty Thomwasoneofthos, Alioiit five o'clock, bet ?odo«ntotheBanqu< ment had agreed with ™'Hopayapartofth Jean Chnjsoatdmt Langelier 635 Q- In your presence ? A. In my presence. A.' itrrr "": ""■""■ '" "- -- '- -• '■» ^ t:::r;:::::;:r;rr-'- A. Yes. ^^'^^ '" ^--'^ had been passed respecting it . «t time. .1,0-1 rneToT" T'"' f' ''''»<■"■«'■• « n^'.-ajd M 't ", '""""" "'"' ""'• A. Yes. Q. What did you do on the twenty-eighth? A.. On the twentv-eiffhth T 6 »na We met Mi-^ If! 636 Jean ( hrysostome Lanffelier f^^Zt'' Tr 'r '^', '*'''*v: T''i'f ^"'' " '■'•"'^''- ^« ^''"' ^^' '^^-^ *° ^he office of the Banque W.W bl th^e. "" °"^ ' '"' '^"^ '' ^""^ ^''^" "•"•eratoocl that the bank officials Q- Yciu did not stop at Mr. Gaineau's? thro,th^°.n'i.' ""(r?,'"""' ''™'^'^' ''"''" ^° "'" ""^'^ "'■^^"^ ^'^"l"^ Nationals ; we paasnd MrT^Jr^n H '"'"!'■''' ""''^'"'^"^^ '^''^ guardian's private entrance, in rear; Ml Lafr.nce was ther.>and,as far aslcanromember.theaccountant was also there waiting for these gen lemen Mr. Lafrnnce had in his hands the letter, tlie authorization to pay the cheque was to be d vided and .o on. As 1 had nothing to do with that, having previously gotM.. Ar.„strong's receipt, I left the.n to their own devices, and some o" the cheques W me u" ^^' T""': "r *■'"" ''' ^ '^" rc,nen.bor, in any case they were not written cWes I Ll'lT' t7 r^^""'"" '^ *^" nnderstanding upon the distribution of the anS I hink fv^' t^T' .''f ""^ '''"'P'' ^ ''^"""^ ^''^'^^' ^*^'^ °°w that before leaving, ana 1 think even the day before, I had Mr. Armstrong's receipt. Q. Before leaving yuur office ? thattr^A'°''^^'"''""^^^°"^''' ^^^^'^'^ «^"" '^''' '' w«« the day before, the very .lav on It ^''"«*^°"«^"l''">««d his claim to me, I believe that he had writt;n his receipt that Mr^^i" ^T *''^'' communication of Exhibit No. 3 and state whether that is the receipt mat Mr. Armstrong gave you ? A. This is perhaps a copy, but it is not the original which I had. y. That is not the original ? A. No, that is not the original which was placed in my hands comSrfthem';£n r' " "' """ "^''^ '"'"'' " " ''^ Department of Public Works; ^„^ ti .^^JJWt No. 3 is a copy of the receipt which wa« given to me bv Mr. Armstrong the llte'r ''''■' °' '''" ''""''' "' '''' department, and on which I maue the payment to Mr. Armstotg' '^'' '' '^''' '' " ^"'^'°' '^^"'' ^^^^' " *^°'' '* ''^"^ *° '^" '^°^'P* ^iven by A. I believe so. Q. Then, that would be the same day on which he had given this receipt ? A. No, it was dated afterwards ; he had written the receipt on it without putting any date and on the twenty-eighth, before doing anything, from the moment the receipt became ot any value, he dated it ; the receipt was made without a date and he dated it. Q. That is your signature appearing on both documents, is it not ' A. Yes. • ■ ■ Q. And Mr. Arm.strong's signature ? A. Yes. Q. Was it signed in duplicate or triplicate ? n,v«lu- *°1" T/II: I i""'' °"'^ ""'' ' ^'- -'^'•°^«*rong had one probably for his own use; I, myself, only had th.at document, which is here produced. Q. Your signature is on that document only ? A. My signnture is not there ; I had not to sign it, it was a receipt given to me. If the ByUon. Mr. J% Jean Chrysostome Lan^alier 687 S a r. a I "• ' "" '•''' '''''••' """ ■'"' "'^ ""'^' --^^'P' ''-t I had, I had besides It M aT ^''^"^.'^.'•g"' "^ transfer with m.l.rogation in lavo.' of the company TW vvas Mn Ihom 8 condition which he insisted on when approving that amount up to the sum of one hundn.d and seventy-five thousand dollars (I17o,o!h)) ^ Q. Have you it there ? depatrfent.' '"'"'' ''' ' "■''"'"'' '' ^" ^^e depar.ment. it should be in the record of the >, .?' ^\u f"^**"'' "'« twenty-eighth of April, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (18-1) ' did ho place hat ,n your hands on that very day, the twenty-eighth of ApriJ^^ ^ ^^ '^ thre:'da^t^lSZ tL;: in mj .S: ^ Wh!tTar '"'''^ = '?' '"^^ ^^^^ '^^ ^ Thorn sa^d that ifit was nofpaid7eS:dt^::eT^^^^^^^^^ ^^^-^ ^"^ ^^^^• prouuce as Jixhibit No. 141, the iollowmg letter, which I now read: 28th April, 1891. I, Charles N Armstrong, contractor for the construction of the Baie des rhnlPMr. have or may have agauKst the said company ; and I further agree to cancel and an ui 'S T Signed at Quebec, this 28th day of April, 1891. ByUon. Mr. Justice Baby C. N. ARMSTRONG. been informed that a letter of credit for 1100,000... Q. Now, will you continue ? Yov A. For 175,000, Your Honour. Q. Notfor«100,(X)0? A. For the Banque Nationals. Q. But at the Union Bank? A. I wa« also informed that there were $100,000 at the Union Bank, y. On the same day ? A. Yes, the same day. Q. Who told you that ? A. Mr. Thorn. A. to the exact amoimt of the two letters it was Mr. Thorn who told m« SrZk ^"'^ "^ '"■ ^^'^'^ ^^"^"'^'^ '"^^^ *»^-« -- *^^.000 there Ld llS.OOO at' t": Q. You left jour office in the afternoon, between 4 and 5 o'clock. A. About 5 o'clock, between 5 and 6 o'clock. Q. You went to the Lower Town and you went to the Banque Nationale ? It- 638 Jean Chrysuslome Langelier A. Yes. Q- Difl yuu sisT soii.e clitiqiies beforo leaving'' A. None at all, r,,ijr Honour. Q. Xone at all .' A. No. Q. Once you reached the Banquo Natiouale. f,h« .^oq„,, ^_ ^^^^^ . „ A. \c.s. First, Mr. Lafrance, the c.s' , , -, ,. "^ . P'^eP^'-^d •' fM.,counted a letter „f credit, ,« he called it iV.r rhl « '' ' "•''"■"'"• ""^ that the bank Arn.stron,.a.ked me to n.akel ch tts V^.^h 7"?'"'- '^''"' ''^- '^"'^°"'- ^"^' ^"^^^^ discu..ion a« to certain «nms am a^ I .tVnnH .'"''• '"'"^- ^'^«"' '^ere was «ome otHce ; fVv settled t.eir husi:;:' Tnl Y^Ji:^ '" '" ^""' '''''' ' ^^^ ^'o Mr. Huofs Q- H..,.. many cheques did you give? A. I H.,w to it, that I did not exceed the amnnnf K„f t j-j . were three or lour, I suppose, I believe ' "' ' '^"^ °°' ''""'^^ ^^e cheques, there <^. Ion gave, I believe, a oh. que Ibr $31,750 ? A. Yes. Q. Y(m gave another for ii24,000 ? A. I believe ao. Q. The third for $16,000 ? ) A. $16,000, yes. Q. Are these the only three cheques you gave that day ? 53.^i:t;;::r:;Lrnr:r:^SB^nq::L::::r:r^'^^ '^- ^-^^ signed there. ^"® Nationale the evening of the 28th and Q. That did not make a total of $76,000. A. No. Q. A balance remained? A. There remained a balance. Q. Why did you not give Mr. Armstrong'th. full amount ? A. It I understand corr'-ctly, th< re wft' ^r. paid on the l..,h of Jul,. He.ud: "ItuaXl^^^^^ o.,..Ht«houldnotbe be nece««ary to run alter them, we woi.r/ooner h " '^ Government w,ll delay, it will Q. Did that sum remnin a lonL- tin n ."nT r ^ ™ """""*-' ^^^"^ "«•" A V^- T I r 'Y ' V "^ "*"'- ""'*^ "» Mr. Lafraiice's liands ' ' ^J. Altei the letDers ol credit became due ' Q. \Vn. lliat a,„oN„l p.i.i ,„ j,,. Thorn by your oh.que ' pay tl'So:orz.;;^^^i:7 ^n:^--:-r "-'- ^^- ^°- -'- - - That was to complete the entire tavmL,,^'i^ l"'" " ''" ''™ '" ^^'*^' «''»' •^■^•) It i« )"Htso kept by the bani. ^"^"""^^ "* *^^ ^"'''"^^ ^'- the «75,000, less the diicount Q. Yrn, had nothing to do with the rate ofinterr.st? A. aN(i, «n«^!r « orhC;i',.r ,rs ;°;;;„re'"' ^■"" ""^ *- >■»" ^^" ■'« •■■- »y. A. Certainly, Your Honour. i OnTll'l" ^'^''^'' "'"' '^''^ '^'°" »'^" 'he cheques ? A. On the 29th A{)ril. » Q. The next day ? A Yes. '.^. About what htjur ? A. It wr out 1 1 o'clock, between 1 1 and 12 o'clock. re, and he asked me to make o- 'Jul cheq^ifsfotS^ °*''' *^'* '"^ "^"*^'^ '« -« -« Q. Pacaud's office is in the Lower Town '? i'r you? 1 >e 28th in the B.T.nque Jfflrl^ 640 Jean Chrysostome Langelier A. Yes, at the foot of Mountftin Hill it in in Hi„ wh e v.- the cheq,.o for $m,m. Then Mr Pac ud a,!i M A ^ "'''^"'' ' "' "'° ''^'^"^ **'"^ '^'^^ peretl sonuihing ? '>»r. nicuud and M,. Arm,trongconN cxed together and whis- Q- You (lid not hear that conversation? A. No, not at all. It was only by the wav Tl.«„ itr.. a same to me t„ ,nake live cheque f.i Vum llai ^ Armstrong asked me if it was th. for $mKm ,. ,1 made five chL^ue;.- .rSoo I e.' 't l.I' ^Tt ' 'T "^ ^'" ^'^'^'^"^ Armstrong and I left. My son'w.« waiting Ifr'n'eTt the" o^; ''^ '^'^^'"'" '^^ '''' ^^' gentile.:; "' '""^ "'^' '"''' "' '*''" ^'^'^ "^ '^'^ --ersation between these two pose It was there that Mr. Ar.n.trong and Mr. Paeaud l!^Z^' '° ''"""'^ °«°«' ' «"f^ i^ 1 hey went into a firivate room ? A. Yes. Q. And un returning they asked yon to make out five cheques ? A. Mr. Armstrong asked me to mkkt; out live cheaues for l-m nnii ; i for $m,m). I madetl.HM and left them for Mr \rm / t ' '° P'**'" °^ -^"'y ""^ ..tl.mt.v,d. between the.ih::l^J^^^^^ ^^^^Q. Had he written or had he any communication with you respecting any sum of A. Yes, I believe that Mr. Pacaud had written to mo tMnsmitrincr „ ,,. . Mr. Ar.nstrong in favour of the Union B.nk, .«king meT> soo wT , n5 !"" '"'^" ^^ be paid, that the Union Bank be paid. When Mr Irmst IT' ! Armstrong would Of the J^..r, I thought that is L Ju. ttn,:::: tt' "ayZ^^ Z!,' '' '"^^ '^^ ^^^^ Q. Have you that letter Irom Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yes, and I will produce it at the next sitting, as well aa the tran.f„,. t^ • transaction passed before Mr. Meredith, notary gubiic^ ^' "* ^ "*''"■"*' Now, Mr. Langelier, you received a letter from Mr Th,.m in «r..™ . A. I think I have the letter among my papers. Q. Will you produce it, please ? A. Yes, I will produce it. I must have kept a copy of it bflnA„«o r „, ■ Q. Very well. You will produce a copy ' A. Yes. Q. Now Mr. Langelier, I believe that you stated that i 'S i iinn «.^.^ i disposal to pay these claims? '"^ "^^'^ P'*"^^' »' your A. No, not $:i80,000. Q. How much ? A. I216,.500. First 1175,000. afterwards 11,500 about Q. By means of what ? A. It was f which was end( Moreau'a letter Ko. 142, and it L. E. No. 1384. L. R. No. 653. •f. C. Lanoei Dear Sir, The Honour cheque for the su in a position to accepted by Mess foreman, who all No. 17,577, dated Lesage, Assistant favour for the sur you to send me y< Q. Was anoth( A. Yes. Q. For what ai A. The other c believe it was agair Q. Coming fror A. Yes, it certa not pay any attenti sent me the cheque Q. You have nc A I have not i( cheques. Q» Did you rect A. Yes, lastly I Q. When ? A. That was n l 41 Jean Chrysostdmr. Lxingeh ier A. It was achequo, I believe, of the TreMurv f. m \ ~. ' """ ~~ ' which wa« enaor,.d, .w far .« I ca.. re nSr ^:v ^f V'^''* °^ ^''''•- 1^'"*^^. -^nd aftorwards Moroau'«letl.rofthe'2rKl M.u- !«'> Tn inl ^'^ ^''^- ^^•'"*K« 'o my order. This ir^r' Ho. 142. and it reads as follow. ' ''" ""^ '"^ ^•"'' "^^^l"- ^ pr.xl..ce it a E^iWt L. E. No. 1384. L. R. No. 653. Depaktmbnt op Public Works, Kailway Office, •^ C. Lanoelier, Esq., Dejmty Provincial Registrar, Quebec. ^^^i" Si'"' Quebec, 2nd May, 1891. cheque'f^Zrutofit^J'oThTJri^rLk^d'S r"'''f ''^ ^^«'«"'>- ^^^^ to i^ue a Zol^TlTT P^^ ^«^'«'" -contend li™VL';?t?R"°!i''^'''^"''^ accepted by Messrs. Leduc and Salisbury. engTn^ers N P ? V'' ^^"'^"" ^^^^^^', and foreman, who all reside in Montm«l / ' ,^'"''^'^' ^- Potvin, draughtsman and A a; i No. 17.577, dated the 2nd -l^tirl Jf"' f.rth^t"' ""T^"'^ "^ T-aTury^S Lesage, Assistant-Commissioner of th ! llZ ^°""''*' ^'^"^> '« ^he order of Mr « iavour for the sum of *,,500 whL yo e ti^el^^ T' ^' ''" "*"«^ endo. d „ /ou; you to send me your receipt in dupLte^ ^ :Z,:;':;;rc^,:;r'-- ^^"^^^ Believe me. Dear Sir, Your devoted servant, (Signed) E. MOREAU Q. For what amount ? A. The other cheque, I believe, was for $"5 oon ■ *». * beheve .t was again a similar cheque ' *** '"^ '" ">« beginning of May • T A yT i? ''?" f ' ^^P-*--^;, 1 ubMc Works ? notpaya^^S:'^;^-^:^^.--^^^^^^ «ent me the cheque, and I had only to endo^elt ""^P^-^""^"' ^' ^"blic Works, and they cheq..es. '^'^' '"' ^ -" P™''"- u, a. well as all the letters .eferHn, to those Q. Did you receive other sums ? A. Yes, lastly I received $15,000 Q. When? A. That wa.. ,i the month of July i believe • r «.. * • "ly, 1 oeiieve , I cannot give the date. 41 642 Jsan Chrt/sostame Lansrelier Q. By cheque ? A. Yes. Q. Issued by whom ? A. Yes, 1 .10 not altogether know by letter from Mr. Moreau. Q. Have you Mr. Morcan's lelter ? B. I believe so Your Honour. In nny case I will produce it. V. U hat 18 the balance that remained of the $280 000 ' A. S()3,500. ' ■ Q. In any case it did not pass through you '> A. No. Q. And you were the commissioner to settle all those claims ? Q, Have you a copy of that letter "> Commisi-terM;.ThiTart:'iy':Sr^^^ -* ^-^ed tomea« department. He came to mroffice ^boufs o^^^^^^^^ have handed these paper, into the nnght do me a service. I am Srouslat it should b' Til ."''!: t'"'' ^' ''^^ = ^ou deposited, and I wish them tot placed i^l sal tL^^^^^^ these have been safe that evening and to hand them'to the department 1 1^^^^^^ "' ''r' ""'" ^" '"^• sending them to the department was to wrSeS ^ ' '''' '^''' '''''''' ^^^ °'' Q. Did you keep a copy of that letter ? A I think it should be in the record of the department Mr. Casgrain shows a copy of the letter to the witness. A. Yes, that is it. That document is already produced as Evihit v„ ic ^ .u • the certificate which waa sent at the same time by Mr. Thom Ld whL h« . . u' '' produced as Exibit No. ,16. I read both these exhiWts ^'^"^^ ^'"" List of Shareholders of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway. Number of shares subscribed of $50 Amount. James Cooper' ^'^''h- Samu..' Shackell !.".'."."."!!!; ^^^ $27,500 00 A. JIcI. Thom 20 1,00000 Robt. H. McGieevy ■.■.'.; IW 5,000 00 A. ,\tc I. Thom, in trust .^^ 33,000 00 L. J. G. Fosbroke '*>;^(^ 228,500 00 ^^ 5,000 00 ru u .-r 1 ^'^^^ $300,000(10 I hereby certify that the authorized capital stock of tb^ ««;. a r^u , Company is $3,000,000, of which has been subscrLd $300 OOO . , ^^'""^ ^'''^'''^' Quebec, 23rd April, 1891. «»bscnbed $300,000, and paid up $30,000. L. A. EOBITAILLE, Secretary; Treasurer. s: Jenn Chr,/sost6me Langelier 648 The Hon. P. Garneau, Treasurer ad interim Quebec, 23rd April 1891. the Zt 7tZ:t:^r '""^ 'r ^"'' "^^^ ---tes are holders of t. • transfer of the clt er aru n^'V "'""^' ^^•^'"J^'^"^' '^'^t is to ay 1 1 H '"T""'^' °^ think proper, and that yon niav ^ivo n , . t ^ '''''^' '""y '^e deposited a, v ^'ow, Mr. Thon. represVS^^'to me t/^'f *'''''''°^ ^^ ^^f''- Thorn. ' '"" '"^^ entrusting ,ne with that dntv ,, mil, ""^ '" f=onformity with thp nT ■'.'*"'' ^^^^'y I have the honour to be, Sir, Your very 'u,nible servant, J- C. LANGELIER, O Ti,„ 7 *. , . (Commissioner." 1 vl " "" '"' ""'^"•' '- >' - -- -.. »cn. .0 ,.. a„..„ :, Q. Dated the ? Q. Have you that letter ? A. No, Your Honour, it should h„ \t • f 644 Jean Chiysoslome Langelier 24th April 1891. The Honoubable Pierre Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works, Sir, I have the honour to forward you the list of claims produced before the Government but not paid against the Bale des Chaleurs Railway amounting to $57,073.54 that is to say ; Against the first 60 miles 38,679 65 Against the section K 18,393 89 $57,073 64 There are probably other claims which will be produced when we commence the payments. I have the honour to be, Sir, , Your obedient servant (Signed) J. C. LANGELIER Q. Had Mr. Garneau, some days, previously, or on the same day, the twenty-fourth addressed you a letter giving instructions to you, as commissioner, to proceed to the payment of the privileged claims ? A. It may be so, I believe so. Before giving me that letter, in any caae, I know that Mr. Garneau told me, that is to say, theldeparlment asked me to produce a list of the claims. I th'nk so, Your Honour, but, in any case, I believe that the first letter or tne letter of instructions to pioceed in that way, was the letter Ironi Mr. Moreau enclosing me the cheque for $l,50(t. Q. This is the letter is it not ? It is a letter addrer^sed to you by the Honourable Mr. Garneau ? A. Yes. It reads as follows : L. E. 1356. L. R. No. 638. Department of Public Works, QuEBKC, 2lth April, 1891, J. C. Langelikk, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar, Quebec. (Mr, As you have been appointed a special commissioner by Order-in-Council No. 288, of date the 23rd instant, to pay the claims against the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company, in conformity with the Order-in-Council No. 237, pas.sed on the 23r(l instant, I think it proper to authorize you to at once examine and verify those outstanding claims and to decide which shall be cont the eta!,: JSMbirZ" iT'"" '"^' ^^"" '™" '''• ^"^P^^ acknowledging receipt of It reads as follows : Baie d-^s Chaleues Railway Company, Montreal, 10th July, 1891. J C. Langelieu, Esq. Dear Sir, I am in receipt of yours of 13th, enclosing cheque for $2,250, with thanks. Yours respectfully, JAMES COOPER. Now, Your Honour, I was to produce also a letter from Mr. Garncan of the twentv- L. E. No. 1358. L. R. No. 6^8. Departjiknt of Public Works, Quebec, 24th April, 1891. J. C. Langelier, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar, Quebec, Sir, I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of rhn oo^i :„ * . ... «er.i««e .„.. „. Tho,„ „.. hi, ioci.!e: Js t it.;*r rir ZS..,'.» 650 Jean Chrysostome Lanselier -IP sterling (exceeding ^3oSratwhr^^ .total a„,ount of 103,.X)0 p'onnds for the execuion of the engLn o^t. , nni / V ? '"'' '" *'"' department as security the Order i„ Council i:^S^Z::tXt:l^^:^^ °^ *^^ ^^^^ ^P^^' ^^^ -d in treJurror^trtlX^re^p^^^^^^^^^^^ % '''■ ^•,^- ^-^- t^e assistant with the conditions mentioned in the sa^Or "^"^^'^T''^ department in accordance to give a receipt to Mr. Thorn '" "' ""''^ "" '''^''''^ *" ^r. Machin • effecfLTrL^XTh^^^^^^^^^^ enable you to Council, these inrtr«ction?:irb™ it you sh'o^t' "'"'""' '^ "*^' ^'^^ "" 1 remain, Your obedient servant, P. GARNEAU, - Commissioner. y- Your received that letter the same day ? Commission ordered me to ;:;d:,lf aTthelt's^r ^"^"'^"^^^^"^^ ^^" ^P"'' ^^^^^ ^he This letter has already been produced as Exhibit No, 144. Q. Have you a statement of these claims. to nt n'olTtrag'eT.f ^tttl^^^ '''' '-' ''-••- -ntioned was sent a long time ia my poles^on I^ ut it to Mr' iZ^lTT'"''''^- ^' ' *'"' ''^^ '^at list only difference between the l^t sent o Mr HolS 1 ', T. . T *" '''''"' '' *° '»«• The Mr. Holland's one, there wns fc^I^mnstwb'r nature oT thr:,"" ''' T.'' '' *'^^ "^ only g.ves the names of th. claimants with the^i^nrpplitlt rmf'^^ ''' ""'''' Q- It is it here, you say ? ther"is!^:',^-^:s;:';^'t:jrH:r;^:'r:if "T r' '-' '- ^" --p--- Moreau produced those documents '''''^ ""'"'• ' ^**« P''^^^"^ ^hen Mr. Q. Have none of your reports been printed y before the Go.er™,e„t .,,.1 no, p.L "^ "' " "" »' "'"'"" P™"™*'! did ij::j;r::""^'' '"" "^ ""■ """« '» "» <=■"- »Moh y„„ p.^ ; h„w „„ch My Dear Chrysosi % -ffora. ATr. Jwg^ic Jfi 'I Chrjjsosldmi Langelier 051 N.. m7 ISTS:*"" ■"' "' -"*» "'■ '■•»■«'■" "«« ^ I prince i. .. Mibi, L'Eledeur. My Dear Chrysostome, Quebec, 26th April, 1891. l..e,«tofte uS atht re'rlta'Se.. ''°" "" """^^ "■' "'■ -"«'■"« "» J. C. Langelier, Esq., Quebec. Your friend, ERNEST PACAUD. If the Commis.tion deairpa it T i,„„ hundred and ninetv-one (liV)' 'l' ruirp/otrS^^'th "^''^'^^^^^ allow me to state how these instructions come ^ Commission will perhaps 1 From rhe'pfn ''w '';' '° *^^^ instructions come ? -v. fiom tne i'ublic Works tViqa.. i • ^i ... vileged claims, but I did not wish to tSf upl'^S ''" *'"'^' ^"^.V^« ^ ^^ ^° P'^y "- pri- are privileged claims, and I could not t.i I ^ *" responsibility of deciding what fronithe very beginning to ^i^t^StriT^riZr^^ ' ^''^'''^ ^^P--^ Q. Did you ask that verbally or in writi,.^ ■> ^^^l^^^-^^-'^^r!:::^::^^^^ i ^that sec in a letter that I now have, an acknowlelmL nt ' "'' '"'" "'" ^''^'' ''^^^"^e I and instructions are given me. '^^gment of the receipt nf my letter of the «fth % Hon. Mr. Justice Jette ;— A IZT'"^-^ instructions on the twenty-fourth of April -> was iust in t::^^.:^;:^::^''''^ '•- 7-^--- of the .aims rt .o^no. ij,,,v which were the J^;:;-;^:^^::^^:^^'" ""'''■ '-' ' ^'^^^ Q. Aie those instructions of the twenty-fourth of April produced ? ! reads as follows : ^ ^"^ ^^'^"^ '' ''^ Exhibit ITo. 150. This letter ^ 662 Jean Chryso^ldme Langdier L. E. No. i;W3. L. R. No. f;r,3. Depaktmkxt of Rni.ic Woisks Railway ofJice. J. C. Lanokmeu, Esq., Deputy Provincial Megidrar, Quebec. Dear Sir, Quebec, 8th May, 1891. ,, ^" ^*'.^'''^" ""^ '^^"^ Hot.ourabl,. the Commissioner, I acknowle.lgc reiM-ipt f vonr letter of n.v, V"''f'r ,*' '^'^" "" "'«' documents accompanying .«ame, ami hc< -anting loi- th. pa.mnit3M,,d(h«l,ur8...nentsn>,.clo l>y you for a total of ..levn hundred and sixtv-lour dollars and .ixty cents (.«l,ir.4.G()) out of tlie ^L.WO.OO recently placed at v„ur d.^j^salbv the Eaihv?-' ^" ^"^' ''"""""" '''''''"'' '" Mt^ntreal in connection with th. Bale des Chaipurs The Honourable the Commissioner also acknowledges receipt of th. copy of the l.Mter sent you on the fourth of this month by Mr. A. F. Riddell for the joint curator of the in.uU N em estate ol H MacFarlane & Sons a.s also a copy of the letter . .f Messrs. Riddell and W. ts> ,n, joint curator, addressed to the undersigned, on the thin! of January, 1890. mpto ..'^^^^' '" ^^'^ a»estion youask in your letter of the fifth instant. " Whether you should Z nn " 'l''""*^."^'" ^hiob Mr. Riddell asks between the privileged d.bts and those which in n •, i*"™ '»»i'''!-^ted to state that you must keep to the letter and spirit of the Oi ler m council No. i.;;:, .i.t.d the 23rd April last, which declare., in the third paragrap>, of Mr- TnTi -n' ' ' "'''"' '■-■'"""'■'^'^'e the Commissioner, dated the 17th ultimo, as follows : "To con ply with . ,. mt.-,tion of the law, the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land, granted by the mnnl; aT '"''"'"' ^"^ Victoria, chap. 88, sect. 1, sub-section j, shall be converted into money.and the proceeds shall be used by the Government to pay thr gitimate and privileged oebts in accordance with the above cited act, now existing again.t the road or again.t the company ; and U any surplus should exist after the payment by the Government of all claims now existing against the said road as aforesaid, such surplus, if any. shall go to the new company on final settlement." .rrn,?" ^^Z "^^er ha,rd, paragraph j of the statute in question stipulates, as a condition of granting the subsidy, tht payment shall be made to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant Governor in Council of the balance of the privileged debts due by the Bale des Chalours Kai way Company. Any way, the distinction spoken of by Mr. Riddell between priviled^ed debts and those which are not is based upon the Act 53 Vict., chap. 40, intituled : " An act tor the protection of persons employed by contractors engaged in the construction of rail- ways under acts passed by the ^legislature of Quebec," which has been and is still put into practice according to the advice and instructions of the Honourable the Attorney Gener,! in e settlement of privileged claims (.such as right of way and the wages of workmen oi bons or accounts for board, for provisions and goods supplied to them, and for which a reduction had beeii made out of the amount of their wages), on the Hereford, Vau.lreuil and frescott and Grand Oriental Railways. Believe me, Dear Sir, Your obedient servant, E. MOREAU, Director of Railivaya. N. B— For > the Honourable tliepayni^nt to cott Railway. Here now, a Mr. Moreau ,snei Ma, L. A. Valle Qoveri M.> dear Jlr. Val In re the Vai the construction 1. All the boi R. \. McDonald, 2. All the boi parties ; 3. The workn not received bom 4. The costs i R. N. McDonald n You will pay only the recovery of ho You will furtl 5. The claims and who have re supplied by them 6. In the case Hilton & Nellis, > given to workmei judgment.*. Pay the workr I would like t( of the claims that i By Hon. Mr. J Q. Can you let A. Certainly, 1 by Mr. Moreau, bui a summary of the ■Nip: Jean Chryaostome Langelier tJ53 Qovernment Engineer, Quebec, ^i} dear J [r. Valine, p.r.i;.f " '"" '""' '"'■° '" "" """""» "■"' '"'■"-" »■■ which „„ .he pr„,„.y „, third no. "ituT'X'hTw'r/e: "'"'""""' '" """ ■■""«'«"-»'.» -h ,.h,.re„ hav, Y«. will P..V „„,y .h, , „d c„j';i.h„ i i„?.°;"'i,r: sr' t""' "*■ '°"- the recovery of />on» or wages. '-'"=. an j otlier charge made respecting You will further pav ...ppliej b,. ,h™ i„ bread. U'LVZl^ZI^: TS^"^ """'■ '"■ '"•' ""■«'■ '"» nu ," ',. „°°"' •"■J"''S"'™1" t»ken either against Dora,, i Hebett H \- M„n„ i , Hilton ,li Ne IS, vou w h ni,K- r,nv ,.^ .1. ■ ■ . Jieoe:., K, ^. McDonald or given to worknen Lrlboers a^ wl eh J^^^^^ 'We^ented by ,ons judgment,.. "" '"^ ""^'^ transferred to those who obtained such Pay the workmen's accounts r„r wages by whomsoever they have been employed. Yours very truly, (Signed) J. E. ROBIDOUX. Attorney General. Of .herii't::;;7iiS''t:'b:";ir''' ^°"' ''°"''°'' "■'»■»' «"* ■» "» -««■« % Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Q. Can you let us have a copy of it ? ..n™...,,ot;he,^3Lfit.rifs:rr:i:hirLrr.h'S'"''-'' IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) .^ ^ 1.0 I.I ■ii lii 11122 u Hi IL25 III 1.4 6" 1.6 Photographic Sdences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716)872-4503 u.. ^54 Jean Chrysostdme Lanselier A. I produce that letter as Exhibit Ko. 151 ; it reads as lollows : D£t>ABTMENT OP TuBLIC WoRKS. QuKBEC, 15th May, IS'Jl. J. C. Langeliek, Esq., Quebec. Sir. In reply to your letter of the twelfth of this month, by which you inform mo tb.u At King, agent of the Ontario Bank at Montreal, asks for a copv of the On Irin p. • ■ the Bai. des Chaleurs macter, as well a. a c. .py of Mr. Armstfo g> e^ s I r riaTe tl 'I! so long as those documents have not been laid before the Legfslature and have .ir?! by become public documents, it seems to me that it would not be Tronlr t „ I "' them to any persons other than those directly intereZ. ^^ comm.micate Yours very truly, P.GAKNEAU, Commissioyier. Q. I would like also to have the letter addressed to Mr. Lesage on the 30th of Tnn« eighteen hundred and ninety-one ? ' '^""^' A. I haven't it. Q. Did you not keep a copy of it ? A. No. I was writing from down below, from the Bale des Chaleurs anH nnf„roii had not all that wa« necessary to make copies of them. That leU ^ s T the deprmen;:; record. I produce it as Exhibit No. 152. uepartmental That letter reads as follows : recommended dollars to pay As yuu m these paymen no longer a cei Must I a& department? thereof, and to You will I are the most n that the works been made. T stated tha v/as an error, I evidently I shoi couli not find it Q. You hav A. No, You Q. I would 1; one (1891)? A, Here is t that answer as E L. E. No. 1480. L, R. No. 653. Quebec, 30th June, 1891. S. Lesage, Esq., DepuUj Commissioner oj Public Works. Sir, n^ultn^r ""'" "''°'^'1 ^^ *^' ''''•^*' ^"'^ ''^'^ ^'"«^ ^'" ^^ shortly sent you I have pa d all the money which was given me to settle the claims against the Baio des Cla 1 Railway, excepting a couple of thousand dollars which remain on hand Any ZtZ cf workmen and boardrng-house-keepers are paid-except certain claimt w^kaireo ,hl exp anations-iron. Motapedi.ac to New Richmond, and I also paid a couple oh us m dollars in New Richmond on account of section K. mousaml There^remains for me to pay the balance due in New Richmond and all the claims in CapNoir Caplan. Bonaventure and several othor localities, which will take ome tt 1, sand dollars. In addition to that, there are the accounts of the sub-contractors s^ me n thousand dohars more, and several large sums for the supply of materLls 5^ T aolaim of cooper, Fairman ^ Co. for the sum of *17,4';h7p:;mtrwher'^^^^^^^^ J. C. Langelieb, Deputy Provii Dear Sir, To comply wit the thirtieth of Ju paying the privile{ your disposal by tl 23rd of April last, a the second of this i seventh of July inst Bank, for the sum > in a position, with Jean Chrysostome Lan-^eher 655 There will also be several thousand 'ziTilZ z^:^' "■■■ — -'■ no longer a cent to place at n.y disposal " ^^° ' ^'^ "^n^^'er^l me that he had ;.partr^r xSr^r ^^ - Oo.rnn,ent and o. ,0. thereof, and to organize my atiairs accordingly ^ '"*' '" "' *° ""^tiiy the company ^ ou will perhaps allow me to observe tlw. ". 1, .= are the most necessarv to allow the ron,n«n f W^^ents, which are still to be made that the works have to be caS on pZ "Vt 'T";'' "r ""'^ '' --"-tion. e" S been made. ^''''''^^ '" ^1'^' 'ocaJu.es where payments have not ^ hftve the honour to be, Your humble servant, L. E. No. 1480. ' ■ L, E. No. 653. Department of Public Works, Railway Oilice, Quebec, nth July, 1891. J. C. Langelier, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar, Carleton. Dear Sir, To comply with.'the request contained in your letter tn f V,o ■ • , the hut^th of June last, and in which you Xte hi v^ '"''?'''' °''"™'^^'°°«^'^J'^'ed paymg the privileged claims which you we"e appointed ?. T' "'""' '"''"^^ ^° ''^""""e your disposal by this department, unde the te ™s l ^ ^ ""' ""' "^ ^^'^ ''»"^« P'-^eed at 2 rd of April last, and in confo.nai y wi h tt adv ' 'off ' '" ''"'""' ^°- '''' ^'"'^^ the the second of this month, I enclose you the oTkc a T ' '"? ''"" '" ''^''' '^ >'°»'' ^'^"er, seventhof July instant. totheorderofMrW^^^ ^'""l"*^ ^^^«- 18' 133, dated th^ Bank, for the sum Of «15,00(), and endorsed tT Mr w' "<"m,ss.oner, upon the Montreal ^n a posuion. with the disposable balance in l^-^^tZT^Z^-ZS::^ 1 : I. 656 Jean Chri/sostome Langelier disposal by this department, to pay, without any delay, the additional privileged claims which are still unpaid upon the various sections of this railway ; tlie whole in accordance with the instructions given to you by this department on the eighth of May last, and of those of the Honourable the Attorney General thereto annexed. Please acknowledge receipt of this cheque. Believe me, Dear Sir, Your obedient servant, E. MOREAU, Director of Railways. That is an original. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — Q. I would like also to have the letter of the 2nd July, 1891 ? I now produce as Exhibit No. 164 ft letter from Mr. Moreau to myself dated the second of July, eighteen humlred and ninety-one (1891). This letter reads as follows : L. E. No. 146e. L. R. No. 653. Department of Public Works, Railway Of)>icf,. QuEUF-c, 2nd July, 1891. J. C. LANGELIER, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar, Quebec. Dear Sir, The Honourable the Commissioner desires me to acknowledge receipt, through your clerk, Mr. Michaud, of the last two detailed statements which you sent to this department, and in which are set forta the various payments rfhich you made as special commissioner, in May and June last, in settleme itoftheaddiliouiil claims produced before you and arising out of the construction of certain sections of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway. By Hon. Mr. Justice Baby : — Q. What were thofs two statements ? A. They were temporary lists, so as to let the department know what we were paying and what remained on hand. The witness (continuing to read) : The first of these statements gives payments made for a sum of $13,919.59 which, added to the 14,779.43, amount of the second statement, makes a total of $18,699.02 to be taken out of the $25,000 which were placed by tha Treasury Department at your disposal on the ninth of May last to pay tluse claims, so that the disposable balance in your bands of these $25,000 is a sum of $6,300.98. If out of this sum we deduct the $38.07 which you over paid on the $1,500 which you received from the Jean Chrysoslontfi Langelier 657 L.sa,e dated the 30th Ultimo anTZTsho:,.;^^^^^^^^^ '^"- to Mr. Respecting the additional chunrwhhylt^^^^ andinotherlooalitiesalongthelineofthatraXav n ?f I, ^? '" ^^''' Richmond ask for additional money, the Hon" urable thrr^' ' '" ««"lement of which you that he ha. given orde/;ha:aXut^mLrt~^^ "'« *« -'-" y- for an additional sum of $15,000 so as to nlaco vn n ^'^ ^f Treasury to your order Btill in your hards, to pay without deav ^ZIZ ;\P"«"'""' ^'"^ the $6,202.91 of balance i.i these localities. ^ "" "'"'"'' ^'""^'^ ™««t """S^^tly require settlement of that c..dm, if i. reaui^;! S^::« :^;^^ ^r;;;:;"-;:^^ As to th. settlement of these add lix.n^ I til . . ^ ^"^ inconvenience, raquests you not to go outride ^^^Zt^^^; "^^^tT"^ '" Con.missioner you on the 24th of April and the 8th of \U. u\ i u . '"^tractions which hi. gave only the privileged claims d ' ,!^ t the. f ' '" l""^ '''''''''''' ^'''^^ ^""^^ should p J of the Honourable the AUorney Goleml "'" """°"^ '^"' "" "^''^ '^"»-«d thereto It is important that vou use thp nfm^af ,i;i; remaining unpaid on this rail^ y ' u 'Z t '^^^w ir ^7' ,''"" '''''''''' «'-™« hands are not sufficient, you have only trnakp If, ^.h' *'^^. *"'"^^ "°^^ Vh^<^d in your will be at on . placed at your disposal " '^PP''^'^*'^" '^"^ '^^Iditional m^ney According to instructions from the Hononrnblo th„ n M,. T„o™ ,„h„ c„„p,„i„, „,. .,.,., i„ Lf™-^" , '„ « ,'^»,X7';«- l^ ""'.e to-d., ,„ th" d,s«|,pointimnt occ»»i„n«l to the workmen mi othe7,™ if, , ."OnipB,,.,-, and that nothing U, been neglecte.1 on the p. "of he f,! ""='l"°'»). " «S»in M5ure him within the ,Ko«e,t po.ihl de,., the MdTil:! ^.^^O^^jH^r^'' '» »"'« I think It opportune to inform von fl.nf vr,. r .„ , raiiwax . Mr. Thorn, who^^ his return ISS^U^' H^o,^ K^ c:Z'""'' ^°"'^'^^^' ■"'^--^ June last, that Judge Pagnuelo had rend,.,^,? i . <;^'>mmi8sioner, on the 29th of the conclusions of the c o'rpany s p^io d ^^ P'^^'"."^ *^turday, granting rolling stock ; which will aHow of Mr T^rnS/th! ''T'''"°" °'' '^' '•'"'^'^>' '"^d co,np.i„g„a.-,d,i,,i„gwith„nt.,.t,.er5:;j^'rott;=rtr,::h^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Believe me. Dear Sir, Your obedient servant, E. MOREAU, ^^ . J^i^ector of Railways, Inat w an original. Q. Have you thr, letter which Mr. Moreau sent tn vn„ „„ ,u • .,. „ h m IreJ aud ninety-ono ( 18'J1). respecting MrLi^h^'s a^co^t ? " "''' °' '"'^' ^'^^^^^ 42 1 ::.;ir 658 Jean C/irysostonie Langelier A. Yes, Your Honour ; I produced it ns Exhibit No. 156. That letter leuds as lollows : L. E. No. 1470. L. R. No. 1072. Department of Public Works, Railway Office, Quebec, 6th July, 1891. C. Langelier, Esq., Deputy Provincial Registrar, Maria. Dear Sir, According to instructions from the Honourable the Commissioner, I enclose you copy of a letter which was sent to him on the 30th ult. by Mr. A. L. Light, civil engineer, as well as his account thereto annexed for the sum of $1,066, and the legal opinign in due form of Mr. William Cook, advocate, of Quebec, upon the correctness of Mr. Light's claim against the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, for arrears of salary due on the iirst of May last, at the rate of $1,000 per annum. You will please take oommunicati6n of the representations made by Mr. Light in his letter to the Commissioner, as well aa the arguments invoked by him as well as by Mr. Cook, in favor of the settlement of that claim through you, out of the funds which have been placed at your disposal by this department, in the terms of the Order in Council number 237, dated the 23rd of April last. I can certify to the correctness of the fact stated by Mr. Light that he ceased to be chief engineer in the service of the Government as for back as the year 1885 ; an Order ui Council having been passed at that time to allow him fees at the rate of .$20 per day, besides his actual expenses, tor any inspection that might be occasionally entrusted to him by the Quebec Government upon the various railways built in this Province. So that Mr. Light, from that time, was free to offer his services elsewhere. I may add that for more than a year, Mr. Light has ceased making any inspection of the railways under the control of this department. In caae you and Mr. Thom, the secretary-treasurer of the company, would not be prepared to admit this claim and to pay it now, you will please give the Honourable the Commissioner your reasons for objecting to the settlement of these arrears of salary, which seem to fall into the category of debts which you have already paid under the authority of the said Order in Council, and in particular, that^of Mr. C. N. Armstrong, the contractor of the old company. Believe me, • Dear Sir, Your obedient servant, E. MOREAU, Director of Railways, This is an original. Q. Have you a reply to that ? A. I have not a copy of it. ' Q. You have no copy of the reply made ? A. The faci claim, and the olijccted to pay the reasons whi Mr. Thorn's tele when I find thei Q. I wish to {mi), addressee A. I produc( the eighth of Jul That letter r S. Lesage, Esq., Assistant C Sir, >' I am every nothing is due. g the sub-contractoi men or those who In my opinioi for the others ; bul respect the decisic I am speaking of c accounts for board their works. In speaking al money, I alluded ti any sub-contractor retain all that they I now produce Public Works, to m Jean Chrysostdme Langelier objected to pay it. Later Mr MoreTn 1,1 . ? ° ° '^*''''"" *" ^ny, but that Mr. Thom the reasons\vhy he did nof wiS 1 t^^^^^ 1 '"f;? '° '""^ '" «°* '"-'" ^r. Thom Mr. Thom'. telegram to the d partme'nt' ha tt'esTn ' "l"" '^'^^^-P^^^ me ; I sen^ when I find them. ''''' ^^^^^ '^'^Pe™ here, and will produce them That letter reads as (bllows : CARLET0N,8th July, 1891. S. Lesage, Esq., Assistant Commissioner of Public Works, Quebec. Sir, the ,„l«o„t,.clo« have been P»M rbT'h! ke»"h. " ""j'*/-'""' ' " » tr„e that ».e„ or thee who f„^„W,ed a/ppliei, wh^tvo tlteZoIi™' "" ""' "" "■''' -*■ mpecl .he decWon „r or in..ruc.io„T;;om:he rp,r J„ ''1 'T '""■°"' ""'"^ '" "■'' I .m .peaking of claime directlv eom,ecte■« P«M »a.n .„ that they owe to the. .oZen a'„dreper.ZS:^' t'C l^.t ^Jj,!,: I have the honour to be, Your very humlle servant, J. C. LANGELIER. 660 Jtan Chrysoslome Langelier L. E. No. 1478. L. R. Ni^. G53. DEPAKT.MKNT OK PUBLIC WoKKH, Kailway Office, Quebec, 10th July 1891. J. C. Lakgeliek Esq, Deputy Provincial Registrar, Carleton. Dear Sir. In reply to your letter of tlie eighth iiistunt, I nuisttitato that, according to the supple- mentary instructions given to yuu by the Honourable the Commi.-(., not that time, ll.istune, Ii-wever, I made all the deposits iu the Ban.,,... Nat unale so as not to carry too much m..n..y with mo, an.l as I wanted nmnev, I drew .,„ the bank. I sent my cheques to James McNidor & Co to ijet the hank notc^s wh'ieh Iie-iuire.! ii Have you an ofHcial bunk book ? A. Yes. A. Have you it with you n.iw? A. No. Q. You will produce it ? A. Certainly, Your Honour. ei.dru" r?ino nis-n " nV' f "''"^^'"^ °'" "'« «""»« ^''"^l' y"» '"eceived in eighteen hmulred a,„l eiKhtj-rnne (ISb'J) an.l „1 ihe payments you made out of them, as well as of the sun.s v.n. thosrsurns ?'■'"" ''""'''•^^^' '^"'l ">"et>-«"e (18'..1) and the payments you n.ade out „l A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You can give us that statement? A. It is all made; it should have I, sen in the Department of Public Works- it w,s certamly sent to the departnrent. For the hrst twentysix thousand dollars, tep.u-mem were Im.shed about the ..nd of October, eighteen hundred and ninetv (1890) ; it drLe.l .,, there were a great many claims which were not absolutely tixed. I have all the statements Q. Will you produce that statement? suhskVvA^'fLT r'f' 'f'" '! " """'"''•'^ "^ *''" "PP"^'«'i«" of the balance of the mihsidj loi the hrsl sixty miles. As to producing that, I believe it will be nece.s.rv t., pi^drice the receipts with it ; the list is of value only so iar as it is supported h/th; I pimiuceas exhibit No. 160 a letter t.. th., Hon^ ten r'".,'" 'T.'"':'"'''"'''""^ "'"^'y (189..), accounting lor th.. application of ,h twenty-eight thousand five hundred and forty-six dollars ($28,o4(i) forming the balance of the subsidy coming to the iirst sixty miles of the Bale des Chaleurs Railwav. It is g "n letter nund.er G91 lor the year eighteen hundred and ninetv-one, ( 189 1) ' Q. PV)r the other sum ? in ./■ '^^''I ''"'i""'^'"' '■« f «'1»<^«1 ; the list of payments for section K, the payments ma.k- m the month of April eighteen hundred and ninety (1890) is alrea.lv produced. y. Is there any money remaining in vour hands ' A. Now? Q. Yes. A. No, Y'our Honour, I have nothing on hand. Q. Out of the sum of two hundred and eighty thousand dollars ($280,000) which vou A, I receh-ed fortyone thomand five hiin.lr.ul doll.™ (Ml,500) and one hundred ,inj Q. The balance has not yet been paid ? A. No, Your Honour, it is at my disposal. Q. You will produce your bank-hook ? A. Here, Your Honour, are my bank book and my cheque book Q. Mr. Langeher, have you the original letter which was addressed to you by the a897(L E No ST/n '«r"*'-'"? °'^^"'' ^'«^*'^^" ^-'^^-^ and nlnet/-one (1891), (L. E. No. I65b, L. E. No. 638) ; we wish to have the original ? Jeun Ckrysostdme Lun^elier em Q. Have ym, any other doeuinontH to i)i„,I„..o " h„„.i,;.t":xtr;:;;^:;,;l:'sr,-•l:, »-;3';«". r ;' -' "" "-' statement a.s Exhibit No 161 T1,p «m«= J / ' ^ ^ "' October. I produce the here are the rece^L I can hu- t^ m . Ire ttr';'; "" '-^^ "^ 'T"' """ ^'''' "" ^^^P^^ = have not only the rec;eipt«h„trlSri;'^^,H^ I'''' '''" '^" ""'"'-^''J- I daim is attached ; an Cor instance f itH^ 2 1 T^^ to one oftheduphcateH the receipt. Besides tins list of pa"'ne„t t .or re ' ""'''' ''^ "'""^«'' '" *^'« happen,.,! that in certain coses the ci / ' P'»y'"ents ma.le on bans. It often det,ulH to con.plete it ; in sn,-h.^:e in r2 '•''*-- ' '"'' '"''"''"^'^'^' ^"' '"^'^^ '''^^^^ ^^'"e andtookfton. with the re veoTeettinfrr />'"'" ^ P'^"' ^^'^ ™""ey cite . the c,.n.n,ssio:r :: th^:r:s v^:^^:::^^-^' ^- ^^"•^^•- ^ '-- hnnS;]^;;.|'::;;,:n'ne i^S^r'"' ^""^'^P--'^^'--^ bam. did you not, in eighteen A. No, I left immediately with it decisio:^f wi^ wi: pH w^ ^i:^ w^:! ^:z ' j;;i"" rT "^^ "'^"" -^-'^ ^^« gui.le me in the matter were given Je onlyX the ef TTT ^'^'''' '''''''' ^''^'«" »<> that that I went down to the depUmentuJn "'-f /"'?'" f .-^^«>'; '^ ^'^^^ Precisely for discussed the question ; Mr G.™ . M Le™ ' 'V'"'" '" ""^ ^^'Partment. We matter together. ^"'"-^ '"'''''-" ">*^''''' '"^'i ^e talked over the Q. And it was the ,lepartment that gave you instructions to pay it ' n.et:i::T^^S^St'^^'"'''''' '-'^ -"^ the one hundred and sevemy. I produoo as Exhibit No. 162 the stvtementof payments made on bon. ExhJ^;tn^ i;t:::^ t-CB^^iJi:;. ,-;■ ^^ -'--■ -•> ^^ - ^- ^s li;/ Mr. Cnsgrain ;— whoi^;St;e:cj:i;'rh:x::.?rf?v"^T'' '^ ^'-"-^^ ^^« ^^'•- Mr. Armstrong's claim ? an.lseventy-l.ve thousand dollars ($17.5,000) , A. It was at the Department of Public Works that it was decide,! Q. By whom? A. It must have been l,y Mr. Garneau and Mr. Le.age, we were all three there Q. Do you say that it was Mr. Lesage who gave you the order to pay ■> " We are at the company's mercv an I it i; thonn^ ., '""'' ^'- ^^'^^''^^e said y. Was Mr. Garneau present? ^' 664 Jean i lirysusldttm Langt/ier A. Mr. Ourmau waa present. Q. What wm tlio (Into of tlmt interview ' «-'" *« -mbra^ity .ith of m Vlh! '''''""'"''^ ''• I ascertained the amouni, I veriHed the signatures, the signature g. Entirely upon Mr. Leduc's signature ? A. \ es because I knew that Mr. Leduc perfectly well knew all about it know wheThi nl?"?'- *" '"°'"''"' "^'" ^''''* ^"^ ^^'^ "°' examined the question so as to Know Whether that claim was or was not a privileged claim. A. No, I did not wish to take that responsibility. Q. I wish you to refer to the evidence which you gave before the Senate, which is to be found on page 128 of the report of the Senate Committee and which reads as 70^8 ^^ y. Uid the Department of the Attorney General tell vou to pav this «175 000 ' A. No. It was the Public Works Department. ' ' ' ' " Q. By letter ? "^ A. Not by letter, in virtue of the Order in Council. '' A. Who told you to pay the 1175,000 ? " A. It was Mr. Lesage, the Deputy-Minister of Public Works. " he'g?tthfchequt™'*'°"^ ''^" '^' '''"^* ^^^'''' ^' ^°' ^^' '^''^"'' "' ^* ^^' """^ *'•"•-' '*' O" ThilT« h!'^ ^'°" ^f'l^^ 'T^'^ '* °"« or two days before he received the cheques. .. A wu T '■^'"'"P* endorsefl on this account ? (Document referred to.) A. v\ hat I have produced. " Q. Was Mr. Armstrong's claim one of the privileged claims ' " or 'not' ^iTjt^l ^'?-^''" '""^^ "V'.^ ^"^"'' ^°'^'' «^°"* whether it was a privileged claim 01 not. I had instructions to pay him and I paid him. " Q. Who gave the instructions ? " w 1 m V IbT? ^'\^''T' ^"^fy Minister of the Public Works who tuld me to pay it. He was my chiel and I took my orders from him. " of yourc^'ieft'^"'' '"'" ''^''^'' '' ^^ P"^'!^^^^ or not because you had the instructions " »nd ^IVr!"!"^^^^! ''*™'' lexercised my own discretion, but in thU I received an order and M had nothing to say to it, but to submit." «r t J!'"!' ^ '"T *"!' ^"" "* °"°^' *^** ' "«^^'" ''P"'^^ of orders. That translation is very badly done. I spoke in French, and the expression I used wa« " instruction " Q- Apart correct '! A. Certaii iiiul as a mill told me tliii fx'fore the S( Uarneau : " Mr. Uarneau " No. " Then '• instruction " fectly correct. Mr. Lesiige a«li what you want f-i- The (}U( A. The uni Q. Acceptt A. In thet about it were y Q. Now, hii A. No. Q. You ha(i A. No instr Q. Now, wil ment of Mr. An A. I made r Tliom's letter ap Q. Now, wii; appointed comm A. I believe Q. It was th( A. It was thi me that the Orde I told him that I it to you." Q. Did you k A. No, I did Q. Had you t appointment as C( A. Not at all. at any rate there —Mr. Moreau waa That is the only ti do with the matte Q. At about V A. I cannot sf Jean Chrysuslume Lungelier 666 corr^t;"'"' '"'" "'"^ '" "''"' '^ -""-'-• •» tho extract whid. I ...ve j..t .ead to you b.'iWe the senate Con.nX. , "T'f. "' '"'""— ^^e in n,y evidence Mr. Uarne,u. l-kl ',./. -. ^^L " f^ "'^ 7" ^ ^^"' ^'^ly l.in. ,o deny it. " Then '•No. "Then I .netilr Le.al. i, M T ./"' "o. "" "''*'-'^''"" "' '"-'' '^I'- ^.-ge ? lectly correct. At ,he time M ] ' ! "'"' '"'.""^' '" ^"''«'""^*^ ^''« """t^r wa. per- Mr. Le..ge a«ked „.e 1 , T ette r to . 2m ".7"' r"'*'' ""'■ ^""'-'"' '"'' -t oonlradi.-/ it ; what you want and I i l^.nHmVvm ' "' '"n"- ^ '"'^' '''"'• " ^'^" ^'>'^^" '" anting C2. The ,ne.tion wa. r:. ;:::;; ,:;;; :;-''■ r ^"-' ->• <-- n.. m. l...^ A. The amount had been accejited. Q- Accepted by whom ? Q. You had no report in writing, no instruction in writing -> A. No instrucfon in writing, except the letter of the twenty-third of April ..n^or^ A™rn;tcj::r^'^"^^ '- -^-^^ '^ ^^^ ^--^- -p-;. the pa.. :n.om.lTt:XVc:CtLTot^ appoh;tfi7;:mis'iont1' " ""'^'^' " '^"^^"'^ *^^ '^^^^ ^''^ -V- ^--d that you were A. I believe that it was on the same day. Q. It was the same day ? A. It was the same day. Mr. Grenier tho Pi^rU e ,\ ^ me that the Order i.i Coundl was paTed anS H %t "'^^^^°"t'^<^ Council, came to tell I told him that I did not want one u the" H f f"*'' wT^^' '^ ^"^"''^ «^^« '' ^" -«' it to you." •■ '' "'''"• ^"^ ^^^J ™« •• ' When it is ready, I will send Q. Did you know beforehand that vou were tn ho or.„„: * J- • • A. No. I did not know it. appomted.commissioner ? appo^tSe\Vrc:rEr'"" "'' '^"^' ^-^ ^^^^^^^^-^ *^^« -"- -^ -pecting your ^"^s^tro^iTTi^tra:^!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .0 with the miter while MrThr^t'p^oCr r^ei^ d" Zs^ " '''' ^"^^^^"« '^ Q. At about what date ? A. I cannot say; I know that it is between the fifteenth and the twenty-third ; T do 666 Jean ChrysoHome Langelier > 'IS t"hlr;wo dltt.'"'°'"' '"' '" '"■ " ' '^'^^ remember, it was almost half way between Q. Can you now state where the Order in Council was prepared' A. ^(), not at all. Q. Do you not know ? A. No. Q- Do you know by whom tliat Order in Council was prepared '> A. No. Q. It was not by you? A. No, it was not by me at all. ..,,n^" '^^'l' ^'"," '^'tr '°"'' ""^ Exhibit No. 41, being the draft of the letter, and of the mSnarn": .n'th ? T"'"" Tf ''''' '" "'^^^ """"« ^''^ "^ interlineations ani Z marginal no.t^s on thm document? A The interlineations on the second page of the words " 45 Vict., ch. 23, and its amend ments'Msmmy writi,^; a.s to the rest, I do not know in wha^e wHting he/are Th certa:t2!;'r't,,'''' ^''^f' '''''' "'"^ ' ^''^^ '^'"'^ '^^^-^ ^'e council o gi^ certain mlormation. I know nothing of the rest. Q. Do you know whose is the writing in red ink on page one of Mr. Thom'.s letter " went to th!- e°!L!!l "t? '^'"'' P'''*'." '""'•'"'' "''"' P^'' ''^^' ''"' ^"^>"S discussed when I Tmrt oi 1 e ; " 1 . '.T" T^' "' '^^^P"'^' '" ^'=^°"^^''°"- I ^l" "«^ know what-for wi^^; U ^'"^'V '"'" ^"'^''' ^"'"' '^"'^ ^'"^P^^"'"^ ■' '' ''^' "P«" ""^t that I was sent for with Ml M.,reau to give some information to the ministers, to let them know what thev pes tive, however, as l^r as I can remember, one of the ministers asked me. so as to be sure ly rS tolZ" ""' " '"^'"^ '" ^'^^ '"'^'""^"^ '-'-' ^'->- ^-^ '" ^^-« '^^^^^ Q. The words : " There from Gasp6 B.isin, as soon as practicable." are in >our writing? doll.S Soom r" 'r''".["V.^' !''■'' ''""' '^•'^^ '' letter of credit forunehun.lred thousand ot cl li 1 '. T"" "' '" "^^' ^"'"" ^'^"'^ °'- "^^' ''*^<^" t"^iJ' that a part of tlio lett.r ot c.ed.t I, r one hundred and sovonty-tive thousand dollars (.$175,000) had been d ■ n and had been dep(,8ited in the Union Bank ? ntc ssit : i naW "th t " fT% '"' *;"'"'' '''°'^'" = ''^" "'^^ ''^' ^^ ^ '^-^^-'^ '>'' t'- 3sa d .'7u fh TT • uT •* "'"''''' «<^"^«'hing like that. Then, I know that it wa, adv'mc ''■ b, I d,- 1 .^om"" I '' '' T ""'""^""* '''■'"' *'" ^'"°" ^-^I^ --^ to make that ad anc. but I did not learn it m a .lirect and formal way u-il the evening of the twentv- e^hth when I went to the Banque Nationals I learned it li,;t from Mr. Anns tnmg who cl e conversng vMth Mr, Armstrong, had said that the Union Bank was doing the other one hundred thousand dollars (§100,000.) ^ Q. Who asked you to go and endorse the letter of credit to the Union Bank ^ A. I could not .say, but 1 know that it was after the signing of the cheques. ' (i- The ^^igning ot the cheques, where ? A. Of the five cheques for twenty thousand dollars (*20,()00.) Q. You cannot say whether it was Mr. Pacaud. A. No; I am certain it was not Mr. Pacaud. Q. Or Mr. Armstrong, then ? A. Perhaps Mr. Armstrong ; I am not sure. ■ I Jean Chrysosldme Lan " A. Yes. " Q. And the other gentleman 1* ordel:"- '"" ^''"'^' ''""'"•^^ ''' "- ^"^'- ^^--'^ l^epartment, from whom I received my ;; Q. Ar^e these the rtve cheques you signed, Exhibits 2.a. 28b, 28c, 28d and 28e? y^^^tnZZ^^Zt'^'''''^'^ '"°^'"^ ^^'-^'-' ^'-- was 1100,000 to my cr«lit1n thetnk.'.''' "^^'""'^ '■'^" "" ^^"-*--' *«"-g '- there was *100,000 to Q. Is that correct ? A. No, I did not know it positively ^^^^^Q^ You gave cheques without knowing whether there were any funds to meet these parttdteSCS''"'' ^^ ^^P^^""^^-- '-m the department that the financi.al w\ (i68 Jean ( hrysostome Lan^elier {$mmT^ '^''^ ^°" ^"''"'"'^ ^^^'^ ''^""^"'' *"°' '^^ ""'" °^ °"^ ^""''^^^ thousand dollars A. In Mr. Webb's office. as n?mhi??s l^""! ^'"'"""^'^f' '"^ «'" ^^^^ '^^er, which wa. i,roduced before the Senate nnnn v!l > ; " whether you received that letter at that date or about the date upon which it was written ? No. 35 ^^'' ^'^'^ '' *^^ '^"^'" ^°''^ °^ '''® '®"^' "^^^ produced by Mr. Webb as Exhibit Q. In that letter Mr. Webb stated... ? A. First, that letter was sent to my oflBce at Quebec, in my absence, y. It was on the sixteenth of May ? aftertar^r ""^ ^ ''"^ "°* '"*"'■" ^''' """' "'" """"'^ °^"^"""' «^*^"" '''^y^ «^ ^^'^^ ^^^'^^ /«inLn^* letter informed you, that the letter of credit for one hundred thousand dollars («100,000) was held by the Union Bank for collection '> A. Yes. Q. On your account ? A. Yeh. Q. That letter reads as follows : ' Union Bank op Canada, J. C. Lanqelier, Esq., Quebec. Dear Sir, Quebec, May 16th, 1891. This is to nxlvise you that we hold a letter from Mr. Garneau as acting Provincial Treasurer and acting Prime Minister, dated 28th of April, 1891, on collection on your accou" t! Yours truly, E. E. WEBB, Cashier. which yrrad'gTve'T"'' ''' ''"" '"" ""'■ '^^''' ^'' ^"" ''' ^'^^ ''' ^^^ *^« «^° 't is annexed to a copy of the letter By Mr. Amyot .•— .ncl eighty,!,, „„fc., „„ pii^ II'lt^LSr',, '^""'f''"'-'"""''"*''''-'''''™''"'' "Ot, which commenced hv ,h„ wo„l. ■ Si t?"', ' ^ "'" ^"""'' '' ""= '""'"■ '' " A. Th„c „e two „t .i,„,e c,.„.''. tote '^ll-e'^'"'"" <" «--■ '">■• *" ' " VJ. Inat IS one, is it not? A. Yes. A. ^oTJZ nSiSe""' '° '"" "" *"' «* ■" *'-" "■>■ 2B7. A. Cer*' '" ''""°°" "" ■"■•' «■" «'•'■>■» •PP"»«1 by Mr, Thorn .ho,,,., b, p.ia . Mr. Thorn." ""'"' ^ ^"'" ''"' '" '»'■ ">"= "I""- »' Mr. A,m..ro„g.. approve,, by A. Certainly. Q. And you paid it as the most natural thing ? A. Altogether natural. • , Q. You had no suspicion whatever that there was anything wronj, in it ■> A. Not in the slightest, on the contrary I found it verv rJ il ? • ' («115.000) to p'ay the creditorMM there!;:"! ""'^ '""'"'^ ^"'^ «^*-" ^housanj dolfa« aeven't.S ^t.^"" '''""" '"° ^^""'^^'^^ '^"^ ^'^h^^' thousand and one hundred and ence:'aJd:h";n'erSatytraSgtpt^^ ^'^^ *^e ^"^er- decided by the courts, 'the'newcompa^^^^^^^^^ ."^'^" ^'^ «^-™ «l-uld be obliged to build the whole road and^bel emUt to be Zn^Tr" k *'" '^'^'^ ^"'^^ -•* cany out the enterprize to a succesll Id ? '^"'^ ""''^ ""^°'«"* '"^P"^! to A. Certainly. ...e Lt'et ;t:s::,n^. re.:\ir rrzr '- "■' '"'»-" °< •■"- ■»" -' A. Certainly. wh.t*^.„:r.:,rrhT„"r :ckrsL7,roir^"' ■•"" °' --"-" " uude^tood a. the time tb.. it w« the Umo °'S:J!C™''.o"di."eoTu " "' ""'' " ™ |L * 672 Simeon Lesage A. Certainly. Q. Mr. Wobh himself had so given you to understand ? A. Certainly ; he presented it to m.', I endorse:! it ; th.'n he said : " I think it is all rieht " I thuik" or " I guess." * " Q. " I think it is all right," that was with re.-pect to the payment of this letter? A. Certainly. Q. There was question of that at the time'' A. Yes. Q. Tlint is what you understood ? A. Whut I understood' was that a^ when we take a promissory note or cheque for dis- count and the cashier says : •' That is c .rrect, you will have the money." That is what I understood. Q. The other claims which you paid were also approved by Mr. Thorn ? A. There were some .•lainis for wages ; and what are called time-checks. It is merely a check acknowledgmg that such a one has a right to so much. Then, for all those matters perlcctly clear Mr. Thom|and Mr. Cooper told me that they would not bother with then," they gave me full latitude to pay them ; as 80 y " By Hon. Mr. Justice JelU ;— Q. Mr. Lesage, you are in the department of Public Works ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Did you, in your official capacity, know of the issue of the letter of credit or letters m'r^Jt n""".'',""''''"^' 'AT"''^ '•""'"■' («^«^''^^'^) «^»J seventy-five thousand dollars (7&,(X)0) tor the settlement ot Mr. Armstrong's claim ? A. I did not know it officially ; I saw that they were issued after they had been issued. Q. But did the fact come to your knowledge in the department after the issue ? A. After the issue I could not say ; it was rather in the Treasury Department I had business in the Treasury Department, and I saw that letters of credit had been issued. lette?s "^'" ^°" ''**^ *' ''''°"* '*^''' *™^' '^ ^°" ••'^member, you, knew of the issue of these A. It was the same day or the next day after they were issued. Q. About the twenty-eight (in) of April ? A. About tlie twenty -eight (28) of April. Simiun Lesa^e 678 A. No. I„ „y p,„e„ce. "■°""' """"" "« P'""" « W. ,,i.p«.| y Q. Then you had no knowledLrR nf iw, ■ ,• Mr. Langelier. that one huSi;^, t. ^ ^Hh " "^J"' ""'^^^^ ^-.e been given to the -^ista^t^raulJironLv'^fp'^^^^^^^ '^^^« confounded the lutant-treasurer and Q. Do you know whether the.V8sistant-treasurer«ave that inf A. Icouldnotsay. In any case, in «o far J '^ '^''^"/~'°"t« Mr. Langelier? pvyment z« concerned, the Honourable Mr ftnrn J 'esponsibih'ty to be taken for that that responsibility hin.«elf. that hdtfotinrnrot^^^ "' '""^*^ '' ^-^ *h'^* he M'k who deeded the payment, it was he whrra , " ]" ^T;' "^ ^'^ ^"^^ °"« «'«e. It washe draw back from the respcnaibiiity of thiZ Sh h '''''\^^^'\'' '^"'l he is not a man to thatmatterinabu8ine.spointof view he h ^^? ^ »n'^«- 'hou' amount, so soon as he accepted the figutes , n f. . , s^n'^cate to get out of paying that ollars (*I7o,000). Under the moment ymTr;.^ tlT T^ T^'^''-'^'^ 'housand to that new, but I do not think that I thorou'hry i„'c ,1!^ r'"'^''' *^^^ ^ should give way ment which might be made; it was an annrp L ?f ^ responsibility in the pav- ^ L.nge.ier himself says, made wrnTake'n b;r;;i:e tiVf ' '^"' ^" appretiation^ time to give an opinion upon the value of the claim S"' m ^"^ "^* ^''^^'''^ ^t that we had to pay. "' '"« «'*"" a°d upon the opportunity or right that 48 674 Simian Lesage Q. I understand that it is not a question of responsibility for you ; the whole question is to know if the facts mentioned occurred before you. whether the conversations took phice and whether Mr. Langelier has been placed under the impression that that claim was not disputed and whether that conversation took place in your department ? A. That is the only conversation I remember, which took place in my presence. Q. Where these things may have occurred ? A. Yes. At that time, I did not know Mr. Armstrong's contract with the old company at all ; I then could not express a clear and reasonable opinion m to the value of that claim and upon the way it should be paid ; but a.s a matter of fact, I was not made aware of the issue of the letters of cre for hTteen thousand dollars (.15.000) andtXrtrntt"fit^^^^ Q. There were no other cheques than ih ,u ' thousand dollars ($25,000) disposal ? ^'i"- ^han these three which were placed at Mr. Langelie!t A. Not to my knowledge. Q- These different surts were nlacpfl ot at t A. Of eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891) A. Yes. fe'ifeen nundred and nmety (1890) ? Q. Do you remember the figures? A. In eighteen hundred and eighty-nine ris«qi th which wa«, as far a« I can remembertT / ? ^^'^ '^^ *h« balance of the snh,;^ That sum Mr. Langelier distrutrda^onTdXTnt n *'''"""? ^"^ '^^^^ hun ed o £ ' pany, and he rendered an account thrreot! '''"""^ "^'° ^^'^ ^'^^-^ 'Against the com.- Q. He made a report to the department ? A. He made a report to the department. Q. There were other sums afterwards ? of twenty tlZaTd ^iLTlSo (jf S^.J'r^''^ ""^ "^"^'^ ^^^^O) again another sun, s.on respecting these accounts theVe is a die' 1"""''' '''*• ^^«^« '"^^^^^ now a diser tween him and the secre' o railways °" ''''"'''''^ ^ ^^''^^ *"fling amoun b .' 'n UTO Sim ion Lesaga By Mr. Cuxgrain: — Q Do you know, Mr. Lesage, where tlie Order-in-Council No. 2.'!7 was dral'ted? A. I could not say. T';fi Q- NViiB it ill your department ? A. It was not drawn up by mc, in any caso; I understood from Mr. Moreiiu tlmt !i,. did not drawn it up either. Q. Wheie lire the Orders-ln-Council concerning your deiiarlinent ordinarily drawn up? A. Thi'v !\Tv dniltedin the department, either hy mysell', as a8.-8, inclined to admit t % M>\ Casgra, Please take coi ^vhich is in the Dfj Exhibit No, 165, ai the Honourable Mr A. I handed th Q. And tlie cor A. And Mr. Ga the record ; that wa Q. And what is A. Yes. The deposition ( SrUfgOWLESA his doposition as foil Ry Mr. Caagrrah Q. You were and A. Ye^', Sir. Q. During the H A, No, Sir. Q. Nor as assistai — No, Sir. Q- You did not ai A. No Sir. Q. Nor as Attorni Simeon Lesnge 677 iitfinimiioii, h(> savs • " T «.!.;»« .. .u- ■ " ~~ " " i. ..I,,,,,,,,;,, :,„ '„.i : :. rr •;; ".v! ''.■»>■. - ^ ■ - •■ «•!„. -'/(•. lieiiiiie: — We .io n„t .lonbt tlu.t, tluU ho i. nI,soIntHv s,.ro T, • Foo( Isuhm.t tlmt ^vo.l,„„l.l content ,M.r..iv^ , h tl, I *" ''""'''"'''"' ''''^' ^'^ ""'"^'"^ '^ donot want lottnr« Iron, tl,. witnes, t,. reaffirm 1 i '"f'"';^"'"" "' the witn-s^Mnl wo Ifoii. Mr. Justice JHt/^ .•_ '.. p;o^;:s;itnxv;:°^=;; r;: •;::;ri ;;f -7 ^-^^ - ^-- ^^ - - tm,o,,,evortho,.s8,a.it,onn.partorthrr M u^ which ho ha.s n.ulo at the inchnod to a.Imif the letter. " ^'*{"»'-t">ent of P„hlic \V..rk«, woare li;/ Mi\ CdSffrain : — the IIon,.„ral,I„ Mr. Gar „i ■/ " '' ""■ '"" "''"lo it «i»l sent it to A. I l,„,„|e,l u„,t !,„„ „, i|,e H„„o„r»bi„ M,, G^,n„« The depcition „r ,he wit„e» i. „„j„,„„ea „„„ .„, „.„,„, ,„ .„, ^„^,^^__^ __ I ingto do with if A. No. Q. It was a transaction to be settled by the Treasury and the Law Officers of the Crown A. Yes. By Mr. Justice Baby :— Q. The piiyment, you mean to say ? A. Yes, the payment. By Mr. Amyot :— , Q. You do not mean to insinuate that you were intentionally put to one side ? A. No, not in the slightest. Q. The Honour,.) lo Mr. Garneau, your chief, acted to your knowledge, within the hniits ot his righta and of his duties ? A. Perfectly. Q. It was a transaction that he settled, if I understand rightly, as Treasurer, with and according t<. the advice of the law officers of the Crown atid with the officers of the treasury department? ^ A. Yes, perfectly. Q. You knew the statute which was passed last session, the last statute respecting tlie Uaie des Chaleurs Railway ; and you know that the Order in Council No. 237 and the Onlrr m Council No. 238, were only the carrying out of that statute ? A. Yes. Q. Will you state when you knew that the uncontested claims should be paid nt the diligence ol the Government on or before the ; I'li oi May tlion ne.xt •' A. The same day 'hat the Order in Councii wa'j p(..-^,-d or the di • bnfore. Q. Was that (Jrder in Council communi •, t'-<\ '„ :•„., departmeni shortly afterwanls ' A. Yes, It waa communicated. Q. When Mi. Thorn was coming, for several days, you knew that the Baie des Chaleurs matter was being considered ? A. I knew that the Baie des Chaleurs matter was being considered. Q. You know that the Government, or several of the ministers, attached great imnort- lince to that road, and desired it to be completed'^ V. Yes. Q. Had Mr. Thorn occasion to speak to you about it ? A. Mr, -, ^om spoke to me about it on several occasions, but not in Mr. Garneau's nre- senoe. ^ Q. He did not appear to be hiding himself from you ? A. Not in the slightest. Siminn Lemge Q. Nor Mr. Garneau either? A. No. mont of Uailway« and as T el!^^ JL" ^'T""''. '"""'" ''''''^ "'''' "^'»- ^^^-^ A. Y.8. °'' " "''^ f^"""" *ho n„.lertook to settle thai ,«atter ? Q. rsittoyourknowledgHthathe had prooureil tl... i,,.' pro{.cT Ruidancc! ? I'looureci tho inlornmtion necessary Jb./ hi« A. He is a prudent man. Q. He has confidence in vou anrf vnn i,n,„ ,. ■ A. Exactly so. " > «"- and J ou hav e contui^nce in him ? Q. Do you remember this converaatinn wV,i-,», >r r- 'W l)fen question of the word '■tinKthe payment? When he I before the minister, and there "Orders "and'. Instructions ■■w;:^rL;;r SI ';^;'^=^'''^" ^"^«'"- °^ '- -^ returned from the Baie des Cha!eu« he would ht e met i """ A. yI: ';r "'"' ''""'''"" "' ^'"'^ »"^^ p' '«««d ? ' Q. Who was present during that conversation •' A. Mr. Langeher, Mr. Garneau and myself. Q,. You were all three present ? A. Yes. Q. You have also spoken of a jotter of (hp flfV„ ». , « morning? ' "''' °' '''« ''"centh of September, prock.ced this A. Yes. Q. W..^t at Mr. Garneau-s request that you wrote that lett.^ ? Q. It was at your own initiative ' A. No, no one, it was on my own inifiTtlr,. taking, and being convinced tha ther h ie , errr'"''. " P'-'.'P' "''''"^ ^^e matter was i wished to establish it. ^''°' ''"'' contusion vith respect to myself, Q. You did not want to take the responsibilitv " A. 1 (Jul not wish to accept a resnonsihilhv th„t t i i Q. Responsibility toward! whom' M^. Lesle ' "' '"' ''^'""- A. Responsibility towards Mr Garn,>nn ;„ X \- . ■ Q. It was not a rV.ponsibil^ beJ^rhe Hot;"^ ""''"''^' ^"'^ ' """^'^ "^ P^^Hc A. X<>, towards the public, towards mvself tinnliv r Q. 1 would like to understand exactl^wl I'f ? ^' uT '°"''""''^ ^ ^ «*!" *m- A. Pei^onal responsibility on mytart o2ds T k,''^ ^°" ^"" ° ^^^^"^ «^? the House even, towards the country^Jhrdnot X/n !'' '"""""'" ' ''''' ""^' ^"^^^^'i'' instructions from Mr. Garneau to that efltt to commn . ^f P°»«'bihty, I had not had not commu:.icate,ed to It was a surprit^e for Mr. Garneau as well as for myself, we were not at that ime...fiom that time forward I was not mixed up in the matter. Q. In other words it was a protection to yourself and not as a censure for the others ? A. No, not in the slightest, it had not that character in my mind, and you know the terms upon which I am with Mr. Garneau, Mr. Garneau is an old friend. And further the deponent saith not. EPHRAIM ELLIOTT WEBB, of the City of Quebec, Cashier of the Union Bank of Canadii, recalled and further examined : By Hon Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. Look at Exhibit No. 96, being a cheque dated 2nd March, 1891, made to the order of E. Pacaud for the sum of $i"')0(K».(X), chargeable to account 20632 of the Caisse d'Economie de Notre Dame do Quebec, and signed by Mr. Mercier, and state what stamps of your Bank appear upon it. Exhibit is handed to witness._ A. It is stamped on the back, " Union Bank of Canada, Quebec per F. W. 8," and also, " For credit of Union Bank of Canada, Quebec, E. Webb, Cashier." Q. There are no other initials of any of the officials of your Bank ? A. No. Q. The initials " F. W. S." are in the haml-writing of A. A. F. W. Smith, our accountant. Q. And what stamp appears on Exhibit No. 96, being a like cheque of Mr. Mercier, dated 4th March , 18'.) 1 , for *3,50() ? Exhibit is handeil to witnof^s. A. " For cr Q. Now on the appearance A. No, I th Q. Why dif A. Th.ntisi is no fsignificutic Q. What do A. That woi Q. Wliy d(,( A. It is thei Q. You hav( be able to toll, w by the Caisse d'l A. It is imp( a current accouii make out a slip ^ cheques a day- amount on their have no account cheques. I have no way in which the inference is v Q. Is that a u are on another ini A. We do 80 Q. Without t: A. Very ofter whom we pay it. Q. What is yc your bank ? A. From the i they were handed Q. At once '/ A. At once. Q. Their procc A. Into no ace Q. No depoj-it A. No. Tile b cashed, as I presu deposited to Mr. Pa in any way. Q. Have you v be credited to him ? £. E. Webb 681 the appearance oAh ' c tt fttnps" "'^ '''""• '^ ''^^" '"'^ «^^"''-'"^i"" 'Attached to A. No, I think not. Q. Why .lid Mr. Smith initial the cheque Exhibit No, 95' is no .iil^fil;.^ irr^nltu;;^^ ""' ''""'- °" "'^ '^^•^-- ^'-^ >- '>- -itialed. There mat ^^oukl he the receiving teller's stamp, .\o. 2 teller Q. Why .1< les it not appear on Exhibit No. 95 ? A. It is there, but it is very imlit^tinct. beaS;to;^n:;i; h::;i^:s^^;;i^''i;;: -:'"r ^-"-^ ^'-^^^ '- ^^■'- ^^- you .i^ht by theCaissed-Econoin^e .^^^Tt^^^XZ::^::^ '-''''' '^^ ^■-' ^'^ P^^^ niake out a «lip with the aniounS ^ U^e'r "ues- C ^ f'S ^T' "' '"" ^" ^™^''^ cheques a day-and send it up by our messenJl 1 ?h P^-hably one or two or three amount on their account at .he W^fqi^^^r e id ^ u^Jt Zt: ''''''' ''" ''' '^'^' have no account in the books which wnnlrl «w ^ '' '"^'ssenger. So we cheques. Ihavelookedin,o.h;dero'it li^a^^^^^^ " ""l,^'"^' "^^ ««n'-etion of these no way in which these could ha e bLn e 'e' vcd "de^'ir? '' "" ' '"' "" connection- the inference i. we paid them in ca.h ove he 1 "nterCtor ""\'' "''' ""*°'"^^«' «° Q. Is that a usual transaction in your bank t r Iv h \ '' ™P°"'"' '° *"^^- are on another institution, over th" counter " ^ ' ''"'' "' "^'^' ^'"''' ^'^'^^» "« th^^ A. We do 80 constantly. Q. Without their being accepted ? A. Very often without their beine accentpH „t i„o f i, whom we pay it. ^ acctpted-at least when we know the parties to Q. What is your best belief as to the manner in whi,.l, fi,.=„ ^u your bank? uauutr in wiuch these cheques were handed to A. At once. Q. Their proceeds not entering, as I understnnd vn,, ;,.u. n A. Into no account as far as I can traco ^ ' ' "''"""' "^ ^'- ^^^•^"d? Q. No deposit or otherwise ? A. i\o. The hills may have been deposited after beintr drawn Tf f i cashed, as I presume they were, the bills drawn L i- ^ '''^s" cheques were depositedtoMr.Pacaud'screclit butthe V ' P"yment ol them may have been in any way. ' ^"' *^"' '' "° P'^^^"''^ ^™.^- «^' tracing it or identifying it Q. Hiive you verified as to whether any accoimf nf Mn i>, j i. be credited to him ? ^ "* °* ^'- ^ ''^''"<^ ^^^^'^s these amounts to .^r I 11 682 E. E. Webb A. I looked into that also, and I could not trace any amount coiresponding with these. Q. Did I understand you to say that your presentation of these cheques at the Caisse d'Economie would be accompanied by a slip ol' some kind ? A. II' there were more cheques than one on that day, there would be a slip attached with the amounts of the different cheques, and a total given, and then the Caisse d'Economie would pay us hy a cheque on the Banque Nationale. Q. If these two cheques were alone, would there be a slip? A. If the cheques were single, there would most likely not be a slip. Q. You have no means of speaking as to how these cheques were paid? A. No, I have no means of tracing them farther than I have said. Q. Would Mr. Smith be likely to know about this? A. No, I have gone through very carefully with him to endeavor to obtain information, and it is impossible. Q. He knows nothing of it ? A. He knows nothing of it. By Mr. Hall:— Q. I understand you to etate, Mr.' Webb, that you have no memorandum with you that you sent these two cheques Nos. 95 and 96 to the Caisse d'Economie? A. No. We have no memorandum in our books at all. We simply send the cheques up to the Caistie d'Economie whatever day they are received and they return a cheque for the whole amount of the cheques we send up that day, if there was more than one cheque. Q. But with reference to this particular cheque, was that the only cheque you had, say on the second March on the Caia:je d'Economie ? A. Well, I couldn't say that. I could not say whether that was on the 2nd March or not. Q. Well, it is dateil the 2nd March. Have you no record to show that you collected the amount of those two cheques from the Caisse d'Economie ? A. No, we have no record. The only way it could be arrived at would be to ascertain when these cheques were sent in by our bank to the Caisse d'Economie. I endeavored to do that, and they did not wish to give the information. Q. When did you ask the Cais.ie d'Economie about giving that information ? A. It was on the day I received the letter from the Commission. Q. On the 29th October ? A. I think it was the 29lh, the date of this letter. Q. These cheques would, of course, be paid by the paying teller of your bank ? A. Yes. Q. Did you look in the paying-teller's book for the 2nd of March and the 4th or the days thereabout to see how he had paid these cheques ? A. It is impossible to trace how a cheque is paid unless the figures are on the back. I asked our paying-teller and he could not remember. , There is no trace of them in his book. Q. Would he have no entry in his cash-book that he paid them to Mr. Pacaud ? A. No. Any cheque paid in that way is handed over to the receiving-teller to be sent in to the Caisse d'Economie. Q. Would th No. 95 and get th A. Yes. Q. When tht any way for the ( paid for it ? A. The cheqi received. Q. You do n( paying-teller he v A. Yes. Q. Would he A. No, he wo d'Economie by a Q. The payin] the amount put ii A. Yes. Q. Have you these two cheques A. Well, if he there would be no Q. Where woi A. No, in his i would probably go back the cheque w Q. Do I under his cash-book that A. I think not Q. Wouldn't h A. Well, he m that cheque to the Q. Then the ro A. He would s Q Have you 1 A. Yes, I have Q. And you foi A. I found no ( included with it. Q. Have you v A. No, I canno Q. You have n( to show when the * A. No ; if I car Q. You have lo^ and 5th, and you dc A. I don't thin! Q. And you car :.*'^*#»Mf' S^(pwaw>»'^'- E. E. Webb 683 r.ce.tJ'""'"''"'"""''' ""^ ""^ "=»' '" "■ "'« '^"i"' 'I'Economie and » cheque A. ll'S. Q. Would he make any entry in his books that he had paid out $5000 ' A. Yes. Q. Have you looked at the return he made on the '>nd nr if>, M<,.„k •*!, .- these two cheques and .een what return he made V ' ''^ '''"'' "''^ ^^'^^'^"°^ *° A. We 1 It he held them over night, he would hold them as cheques in his cash hnt there would be no statement as to what cheques they were ' Q. Where would he hold tlie cheques, in his drawer ? A. No, in liis cash-blotter, if he held it over niehf • Knt if u «, • i ■ • A. I think not. Q. Wouldn't he made an entry in his ca^h-book that he had paid $.^000 ? thatt eT^e ;or rtVi; -n'^lS '''' ''" ^^ ''' -eiving-teller. He would hand over Q. Then the receiving-teller would give him some memorandum ' A. He would simply credit it in his cash-book. Q Have you looked for the entry ? A. Yes, I have. Q. And you found no entry for that amount ' inclutlJlZlt"""^'"'""*'^'^"'^'"'^ ^'^^ ''''' '^™°""^- ^^'-- -"y be other cheques A. nH cZ:: f;' ht^""^ ^°" '-' '''' ^^^^-^ ^^^ ^'^-'^^ - *^^ «-- ^'^~- . to shVwhenTh. *° o'fi? '" ''°"'. ^''^' '''^'' '" ^™'' P^yi^g-teHcr's or receiving-teller's to Show when the *o,000 were priid out and this cheque received' You hllT r\ *';'^i'"*;'™'\^'™. 1 >"ight be able to trace the transaction further. ^nal^::aZ^:^t^::;;Z^r''^' ^" ^°- — - «- ^^-e dates, the^nd A. I don't think these cheques were deposited. Q. And you cannot find any trace that they were deposited by any other customer ? 684 E E. Webb A. No; if they were drawn in cash, there might be iin apparent deposit to Bome customer ; but they have not gone in as deposits, nor have hey gone in as cheiiues : so in that Wiiy I cannot connect them. Hon. Mr. Justice Jettt : — The evidence was that they had not been deposited, that they had been paid over the counter. 27(6 Witnesn :— I onn -state jjositively that those cheques were not deposited to Mr. Pacaud's account Whether the proceeds or apparent proceeds were deposited afterwards I cannot say, but I have locked in his account for that amount, and it does not appear, so the cheques were not deposited. Q. Does it appear on any subsequent days that a portion of these cheques wiis deposited ? A. Well, I cannot trace that. Mr. Pacaud has made deposits on subsequent days, but I cannot malce any connection between the deposits and the cheques. The deposits most recently after these cheques were paid shew deposits in bills. Q. Bills of what bank and what amount ? A. I could not s^ay that, because we cannot trace that either. Q. Have you got the deposit slips ? A. No, I haven't got them here. Q. The deposit slips that I would like to see are two on the 2nd and one on the 9th ; and in the Savings Department there seem to be some deposits too ? Have you looked in the Savings Bank account kept by Mr. Pacaud ? A I have. Mr. Hall :— I would aak that these slips be exhibited. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ; — We will see as he examination proceeds. By Mr. Hall:— Q. Can you tell us also what amount Mr. Pacaud had to his credit in your hank, say, between the lOth May ,and 19th May— either in his general account or savings bank account ? You might verify that at the bank, so that we will have it exactly. A. Yes. Q. Mr. Webb, you were asked the other day by me for a statement of the amiunt of notes under discount by Mr. Pacaud between the 28th February and 1st May, 1891 ? A. Well, I have taken notes from the 30th April forward. Q. The order was from the 28th February. A. Well, it shews the notes discounted from tho 28th February ; but there are notos that have no reference to the question here. Statement is handed to the Commissioners for their inspection). i!i E. E. Webb 6«5 13th ? ^°''"" ^^'"' ^'"^ ^">on Bank from April 30th to August A. Yes. Mr. Hall :— .he „',."'?" "°"" '° """" ""■"""■ " ■"«".»'«n" M. . For oredt. ol ,he Union Bank of C.n.d., E. 686 P. Valliere A. Simply a stamp for the protection of cheques in case, they might be lost in transit from one bank to the other. Q. Would this stamp indicate that the cheques were collected by the Union Bank from the Cais-e d'Economie ? A. Certainly that they were collected. When the stamp was first put on of course they were not collected. Q. It indicates that the cheques were deposited with the Union Bank for collection ? A. Yes, for collection or cash. Q. Cash '? So you think now that the cheques were deposited with your Bank and that they were collected from the Caisse d'Economie by your bank? A. I think the cheques were presented to our bank for cash, and cashed by our bank and sent in to the Caisse d'Economie for redemption. Q. What would the endoraation " E. Pacaud " on each of these cheques indicate V A. That the funds were received by him. Q. That is the custom when large cheques are presented to the bank to be ca.shed oirer the counter ? As a rule the party to whoni the cash is paid is requested to endorse the cheque ? A. Unless the cheques were previously accepted by the Caisse d'Economie we would insist on it. , Q. So that this endorsation indicates that the two cheques were cashed by Mr. Pacaud from your bank ? A. Yes, in the absence of the deposit slips. Q. Now, did you ascertain that on the 2nd of March Mr. Ernest Pacaud deposited with your bank $4,000 ? A. I couldn't say without referring to the account exactly what he deposited, but there were some deposits made to his credit. PHILIPPE VALLIERE, of the city of Quebec, manufacturer, being sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say : By Hon. Mr. Juatice Jette : — Q. You reside in the city of Quebec ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You have been present at most of the meetings of the sittings of the Commission since the commencement of the enquiry ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Y'ou heard all the evidence that has been given ? A. Nearly all. Q. You heard Mr. Pacaud's evidence ? • A. Yes, Sir, I heard Mr. Pacaud's evidence. Q. You endorsed, as has been stated by other witnesses, three promissory notes signed by Mr. Pacaud, of twenty thousand dollars each ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. One which was discounted at the Banque du Peuple on the sixth of May ? A. Yes, Your Honour, somewhere about that date. i ^ ^ . f^ I p. Valliere m A. y1, tr '" ''"""'^' °" '^^ ^"-^--h Of May at the Banque Nationaie. Q. And another of which the discount was refused ? A. It was refused, yeti. Q:^^:;^;^^J:::Z,r°^^'^^^Mr.P.caud.hef.re™. , ^•";r::rth:r-^:;:;;::;:^ci.ir;f^^^ these two notes, which were discounted ? " ^"' ^^"' endorsement on each of A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. You were paid these five hundred dollars ' A. Yes, in money. Q. It was not by cheque ? A. No, he drew the money and he paid me. A. S: Y^Hot:,"" '™*'"' "°""'" °" "■« ""«' ■■»- ' whip,is'r;orxn:z." t^'ifhVr. r "--—en- note.! ttae notes for twenty thousand dollaraTArmr "'"*' ^°" "^ ""•I""' these a.sCh.L:"rCr.o;:t1;"~^^^^^^^^ p.d in th. B.ie Q. Did he offer you any security ''' ..o.e.'^whl^:'l2d"Seie''„;/ """ *' <""''°"»°- ^"^"'•'■» -te a.t.ehed .o my Q. Was there a letter from Mr. Webb ? A. There was a letter from Mr. Webb whinV, „., ^ j accepted, and that the amount wouMb ^d t ^rnr^^alhT T ''^ ^""^"^ ^^«-«'e £n7ti^:- -' ' — • - - "- ;- rT:r eSt r Lro„T.r mo?of2;:ur.rhi^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^« ^^— of these two notes for Q. On your merely askmg them you obtained it ' ofthebanTs^irom^rtSXrcr money before having the letter. The next d'y-^r Cbb ha" f ''\''*^^"'*' ^'' ^^e went to bang it or I believe that it was at that ti^l .A'""* ™^ ^^^ letter-and I gelier came with me to the bank, but tTas i tt ..^^^.^ \r ? '"".-^"'^ "^^* ^^^- I^^"" were going up to the Club. I was in Mr p!/ Z. ^''""^^^ ^^^- Langelier with me. We Langelier. afterwards we will g^o Va^^^^ £ tt ' ^' d " 'T ^'^^" ^"^ ^' say so instnerethat I do not know if I should i ifltJ A* ^" ' 088 P Vulliere Q. Wliirh of the two Mr. Langeliers ? A. Tliu Hon. Cli-s Langelior. It was thcie that it has been said, thatMr.Chs. LaiigeUer hiul {jroniiseti $,')0,(lOO ul' deposit to Mr. Duinoiilin. Th.it i.s not the case. I deny that altogeih«r. Mr. Dumouiin asked Mr. Langelier; '■ Will you not see that a deposit of $.50,000 is made with me ? " He said that he would see Mr. Shehyn and that if Mr. Shehyn wished... finally he had no objection, that he would try and get the deposit. Mr. Chs. Langelier told me on going out : " Are not these people a bother. Tiiey are well paid, why are they always asking me for depnsits? The head oHice has one of the largest deposits here, why are they always on my back? That is n )t in my power but of Mr. Shehyn's office." That is what makes me remember the thing. Q. Did you have any knowledge of the steps taken in Montreal to discount the third note for *-J0,(K)O ? A. I was told that they had it for discount in Montreal. I know nothing of it. Q. Apart from what you charge for your endorsement, had you any other profit out of this negotiation ? A. Nothing. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Do you remember having made a solemn declaration in these terms : I, Philippe Valli^re, of the city of Quebec, manufacturer, do solemnly declare : That on the occasion when I went to the Banque du Peupie, in St. Peters street, Qnebec in company with Mr. Ernest Pacaud, to get a check of $20,000 of Mr. J. Chrysostdme Lan- gelier, in his quality of Government Commissioner, discounted, I met there Hon. Chs. Lan- gelier. who happened to be there by accident. That the said Hon. Chs. Langelier had nothing to do, either directly or indirectly, with the circumstances of the said cheque. That the said Hon. Chs. Langelier never promised to obtain a deposit of $50,000 nor any other amount in the Banque du Peupie to induce the cashier to discount the aforesaid cheque of 120,000. That I recollect that on that occasion, Mr. P. B. Dumouiin asked the Hon. Chs. Lange- lier to exert his influence with the Government to obtain a deposit for his branch of the bank, but Hon. Chs. Langelier would not promise anything. He merely said that he would do his best, but he did not bind himself to anything. And I make this solemn declaration, conscientiously believing the same to be true, and in viitue of the act respecting extra-judicial oaths. (Signed) P. VALLIERJ]. Taken and acknowledged before me, at Quebec, this 10th September, 1891. (Signed) ALEXANDRE CHAUVEAU, J. S. P. A. Yes, I remember it. Q. Do you notice the difTerence between that declaration and the one you have just now made respecting your meeting Mr. Langelier ? A. I met hi I even reninine Do nut forget t( Q You stai A. Not to n Q. Could h« A. I do not Q. Where d A. In Mr. I Q. And you A. I do not sary that he shoi Q. Mr. Paca A. To the b, Q. Are you ( A. To the bt Q. It was be doing that ? A. I do nr>t 1 Q. Did it not cheque of an oH eudoraement to Baie des Chaleun A. No, I do n Q. Did that n A. No. Q- Did you b( A. It is done, not be done in tht Q. Did it not i A. No. Q. It did not a A. No. Q. As being a A. Not at all. Q. You had alj A. It is very p: Q. It is very pi A. If it was noi Q. I will take y endorsed or got disc A. I do not ren Q. I ask you to A. I do, not rem Vailiere Do not ^>,.Ket to try and get ,hc .leposi; ior n>e " '"""''" "'^'"^ ^"^ "'^ He «ai' ? Q. Are you certain that it whs that' doing ihal? " ""■"'' "'""I'eOo'crninent cheque ihat he w„ Che * ot'.: ir:?rrrit,'^„^.s ztit-'' ^° '»'- ^-^ »">.« A. No, I do not know that. Q. Did that not appear .singular to you ? A. No. Q. Did you believe net *e I' ■r.L'lr""'''''''''"^" *''"■»''>» *"«• ' -» " ■». wh, i. e„„,d Q. Did it not appear somewhat strange to you ? A. No. Q. It did not astonish you at all » A. No. Q. As being a somewhat singular commercial transaction ? A. Not at all. Q. You had already done so, I suppose ? A. It is very probable that I had. Q. I ask you to answer my question 1 cneques... A. I do.not remember, I cannot say at the moment. 44 /' . t ' 690 Hon. G. Duhamel Q. I ask you— you yourself made tlie declnriition,— I ask you now to make it good and testate under what circumstances you endoi-d.Hl cheques tor other Governments than this one '! A. If you will give me until to-morrow, I may perhaps be able to give it. y. Then, you unilertake ',o return to-morrow morning and state the circumstances under which you iliscounted cheques for other Govemments than the Mercier Government? A. Certainly. If I laid them, I will return. And further the deponent saith not. THE HONOURABLE GEORGE DUHAMEL, of e ministers who took part in the negotiations, Q. Will you state whether you took '.iny part therein outside the sittings of the Coun- cil, or if you had any conference respecting the preparation of these negotiations ? A. I had no practical conferences except in sittings of the Council, but I conversed about the matter with the ministers and with Mr. Thom also sometimes outside the Council. Q. To ask him for explanations ? A. Precisely ; solely upon the discussion of the various points that were necessary to settle. A. After the passing of the Order in Council of the 23rd of April, had you something to do with the issue of the letters of credit or of the letter of credit for $i76,()U() to pay "mf. Armstrong's claim ? A. The thing was done in Council. The first letter of credit, which was for $175,000, was brought to the Council by the Hon. Mr. Garneau and read. We approved it when read, and I have not heard of nor seen it since. The next day or the day after that, Mr. Garneau told us thiit in place of the first letter of credit for $175,000, the parties to the transuction preferred to have one letter for $1(10,000 and one for $75,000, as the banks had not the money required to discount $175,000. We thereupon said : " It is of no importance, the tprms of the letter are the same, it matters little whethei- there are two or only one, that is a depart- mental matter, you are authorized to settle that." That is all I know respecting that letter. Q. Were you present in the office of the Treasury, in Mr. Machin's office, at the time that letter of credit for $100,000 and that for $75,(X)0 were drawn up ? A. I was not present when they were drawn up ; I do not even know if they were about drawing it when I went there. On leaving the Council, I went to my office, and there I found Mr. Thom, who represents the new syndicate and who asked me for a hunting permit. He said : "I am going to Bale des Chaleurs to commence the works.to put the whole thing gi ling, and if I happen across any hunting, I would like to have a right to hunt." It waa not the hunting season. so." He 8 :. "t that way, and if away, I wrote on askeil me one or that I had nothii that Mr. Webb, i tlie time was pro Q For the h A. Yes. Q. Do you re A. I believe 1 treiisurer was thei Mr. Thom. Q. Was Mr. I A. I do not re Q. Did you al their issue ? A. Not in any Q. You did no A. Once the man in the moon. Q. If there is < A. If there is ( Q. Had you an A. Ah ! yes, he Q. Did he spea A. He spoke t( Q. Before the C A. Between th( I saw him to speak Q. What was th A. I do not kno what he said, as the county, who as Pr -■mportance to the su "8, we might not ba,^ to ruin, and would in and threatened to br( if we allowed the woi beyond which any ar and tnat he could no it was of the utmost i the risk of the delay < but that is the substa Pacaud. Q. You saw Mr. 1 Hon. G. DuJmmel fi91 liuntiriK season Is'iid- "„^ i_ . " " — • — -^==; h»> »»y. ,u,d rr ,„„ |,„,,. „,„ „.„„ ^, '^ ™ «' Mr. M»=h.n ■,.■■ I .„i,, ,..,.„ . «w..v [ wn.tn nut the ,,orniit „„J „,„, ;„,. TJ' "" '™™ " '"f >o.i in ,,„,,i„B." He wpm thnt I h,i,I nothing to ,lo with it and \ ^v.,.i ""|'f'it it was a departmental aliair and t at M,w,hhJn.ood faith. mI';^;;^ prol.ahlv as to that cireu anej *7™ Prd-^l-'y 'or the pornnt tS u.d ^ J ^-^M ^^/-J"- '-'^^'i -e for Tt H For the hnnting permit ? ^ ""' *'"'' *"r nothing else. A. Yes. y. VVas Mr. Lafiance there '> ' A. I do not remember. It is pos.-ible. A. Once thoOnlerin Cmnoffi ^"'•»"" "• Um matter ? ..»n in the „,„„,, ^™™' »" >»"«■'. ' »« more eo„c„„e<, „,,„,, ,ith i. ,b.„ e,.^, Q. It there is one ? A. If there is one. Q. Had you any knowledge tha't Mr p j A. Ah : yes, he followed tfettttreS;.' "" "'"'^™'"' '"'"-'^ ^ ^^e matter? y- Did he speak to yon about it '^ ^■^:;:tr::r;r— -— .oferedi. I«aA^':^:t::^J- ;'£-;; -^ the issue^. ^'hat he said, as the ElerteurlZ't! ^0 ZtTnZ t ""' 't '^ "^^^'' ^"^ ^' ^ '^^O"* county, who as Prime Minister and member 7oTBn ? '^"' '* ^'' '^'- ^ercicr's importance to the success of the enternrSenndtw-?^''""'"'"'' ^"''^^^ed an immense 2 we might not have another, tS^tTaTroaiVl'^lTr ^'^ '^P^°'*"-*>' «^-"" to uin, an.l would in time be completely des nrved m ^t^ """" ''^^^^^S over, was going and threatened to break off, saying that he ^llnt [■ ^"^ '"''' "'« '^^ ^^me fhinf ifwealowedtheworkstodeteHoLe a ^frnh;^^^^^^^^^^ "^e same conditions' beyond wh.ch any arrangement that Mr. CrCl'ltVi^nr "''^'^^^' ^ ^^^^ deiaj: and tnat he could no longer act, that it wonld L '"""''^ ^^"""' would be cancelled ;t was of the utmost imp^rtanc; to omSth^^:^^^^^^^^^^^^^ «-' another syndicate tS u Ihn. °' k' '*^'"^' ^^P'""^ ; that is alf Tl e e nmv ul"'°" "' "''''"'" "^ ""* *° ""^ ^-;;jt .s the substance and the whole sn..^::^^,::z::::z^sj^-z:t Q. You saw Mr. Thom about the same time? 692 Hon. G, Duhamel A. I siiw him nearly every da)'. (I Dill Mr. Thoin iiiako nny rcpresentatioii.s to you? A. About in the Sfunu sense. Q. Did you see Mr. Arnistron^ re.sj eciin'4 tliia negotiation? A. Nil, I never saw liiin, I never Haw him to convers') with liim about the matter. i-i He (lid not »\wak to you about it ? A. He did not 8| eak to me, nor I to him. C^. D;d you learn that Mr. Paeand liail an interest in the settlement of this matter? A. Nil. 1 learned it from the newspapers and the aenato enquiry. v (I. But at the time ? A. Not at all. I have no doubt about that. Q. You had not the slightest suspicion that he was interested, from the way in whieh h; was acting to get the letter.i of eredit icsueti ? A. I did not think that he was working altogether for nothing. I always believed that he represented the Thom syndicate, i never believed that hi- represented Mr. Ainistmng. The way lie spoke rather showed that he was assisting the Thom syndicate. I believed that he either made or assisted in making the i)usine8s, and I believe, that he rejinsented Mr. Thom, the new syndicate ; and from his way of speaking, I was authorized to arrive at that conclusion. (I. Did Mr. Pacaud often go to you with Mr. Thom ? A. I do not believe that they ever came t<» the office together. We sat every lay, sometimes twice a day, for several days, we reached the buildings, our oirices, about the time of the opening of the Ckjuncil, and we for the nioSt part met in the office of the clerk, Sometimes we happened to come to the buildings together, but I had no special interview,— I speak of myself, — he had some with Mr. Garneau, but with me he never had. Q. Ttien the first time that you heard it staled that Mr. Pacaud ad an interest was after the whole matter was finished ? A. Yes, Yoiu' ILjnour. Q. It was from the revelations made before the Senate? A. It was from the newspapeis and the Senate enquiry solely. I do not know whether the newspapers spoke of it before the Senate enquiry, I cannot say , but it was about that time. Q. Was it from the newspapers you learned it, or did some one speak to you about it? A. It was from the rumours in the newspapers and the Senate enquiry. Q. Had you any reason to suspect, at the time, what was the extent of the interest which Ml. Pacaud might have in the matter when you saw the revelations in the news. papers ; could you have susnected before that Mr. Pacaud had ,such a large interest in the matter ? A. None at all. I began to have an idea of the thing... I finished, I only came to kiidw of it since the revelations in the newspapers until to-day. Q. There was a declaration made here, and [ ask you the question so that you iiiny explain, if you wish to, respecting a sum of $U)0 which was paid for you by Mr. Pacaud «» your entrance fee to the Union Club? A. I was going to ask for permission to give some explanations respecting that. I always refused to belong to the Union Club, because I did not then have and I do not as yet have the means to belong to it. I positively refused, because I was asked — others friend also asked me tinil \ of those who to have you in sf will see to that, received my ace paper basket, th knowing whenc until the 11th of learning it, if Ih and I have not i the person who 1 impo.. <">•' I'-e you in «pi,e of yonr.seli ai I 11 I' ^"^ " "--'" tl^o nuni.f.r., wo will wilUeo to that. Th.y ,...„pos,..i n, a .unit ,v " th "■ "r'.""'' '" '"■^■- ''" ^'^'^ ■ ^^'^ n.eiveamya.co„nt,whic.i:rhanH..l t ;. .^t^,^.^^^^^^ '"-'«"i'-t '">• -ill. I paper basket, that I co„id „„t pay it. So„r; avB , ..' *" ;' ' '"" '' '" ''"-' ^^-""^ knowing whonco it camo. I thm,«ht th ^n J V^''' ^ ''''"*^'^'' "'J' '•^^''M''' "'" ">>'il th. nth of October that it ^^ >/ V tnT w, """'/'^'■•.V'^'"'"""'- «"^' ^ '»'' -' ■••am ^•'mun«itJrIha,ltl.on.oneyJwould Jlw^^^ • '• On and I have not it yet ; an.l i he CI b w.,. ,Z T "' '"'^'"'' ""^ '"^^••' "'" '"''"^v the person who ha.l paid for ,ne ; brie "," ''''T"''' ' ""'"■' ^^''' '^ ''""'< ^" impossible for me an it wa.s then to jly th^a .ul.mt ''' "'" "" "" '^^ ^^ ■'" •-^' "'^"y Q. You arespeaki.iKof Mr. K.loiiar.l Garneaii ■> A. ies, the Honourable Mr. Gari.eau'« son. % Mr. Caagrain .•— Q. But Mr. Duhamel, you go to the Club' A. Yes. Q. You j,'o there still? A. Yes. for nil™: """" " "'""'"• ""• "■»' '"" -"^ ">».*• «,». „,.-p„e.„., .„ „„. „„,,i„^ A. Certainly. Q 1)0 you know for about what rate he wa,s working yourt'lft'oloitinTas r^ol^'te^'^' "'' ''' ^^" ""^•^'^^^' ^ ^ "« "«* "^"ow for what you Q. You thought that Mr. Pacaud waa as an advocate •' A. Yes. Q. You are wdi aware that he i, not pr.o,i.i„g .. .„ „,,.„„„„ , . .™ . "w.:::.""' "■"■""■ ■""""'■ "»■ " "» '■""-'-l "■»« I bave pracw nr.v.elf .i„ce A. He is a journalist. Q- Is it not true, that from what vou know all Mr Pnn .n.i- "T;;;:i:r:r::r"" -'"'"'■' «''"°""'"-- Q. Now you stated that on that occasion vo„ really thoucrbt ih.f v Q. I ask you ? i / I? ;f b',i*|i 694 Hun. G. Duhamel Q. You know that ho busied himself in advocating claims of those who had business with the Government ? A. Yes, like yourself in my department. Q. In the same way ? A. Yes, as to my duties as minister, you occupy the same position in my department as Mr. Pacaud, exactly. Q. I wish you would explain yourself ? A. You represent the Attorney General in a case in my department. Q. I represented the private party who is obliged to make use of the name of tue Attorney General to take a writ of scire facias * A. Yes. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— I understand that Mr. Duhamel stated that you were looked upon with as much favor? By Mr. Casgrain :— Q. How long did you remain in Mr. Machin's office? A. I perhaps remained there two minutes. Q. And if a witness has said thit you remained there half an hour ? V A. He may havu been mistaken. Q. Would you be mistaken or the witnesses? A. It is certain that if tlie witne^jses say that, they are mistaken. Q. The thiinks which Mr. Thorn gave you had reference to the hunting permit' A. That was it. Q. Was this iumting permit for the purpose of hunting beaver or moose? A. I cannot say, it was perhaps lor moose. Q. Will you take communication of the letter Eshibit No. 24, and state if you have ever seen that letter before ? A. I saw that letter in the Council, but since the enquiry has commencjd. Q. You did not see it, when Mr. Thom rcturneil it to Mr. Garneau ? A. No. Q. You had not seen it? A. No. (i. You did not contribute to its drafting? A. No. Q. Do you know the writing in the letter ? A. No, 1 ito not know the writing. By Mr. Beique : — Q. Did you receive any promise from Mr. Pacaud or others, from Mr. Thom or Mr Armstrong, or trom others, or did you receive any favor in connection with this matter of the Bale es Chaleurs ? ' A. None whatever, outside the matter of the one hundred dollars in question, which were without my knowie ige, and which I could not prevent. Q. Which was done without your knowledge ? A. Yes. Q. Without A. Without from that, I rocei paper, or money And further ACHILLE F sworn up on the I ( The witness it By Hon. Mr. , Q I find in th promissory note pi $loO, paid as being note paid for the si received from Mr. three items. We i A. I must stat Sinc(> I have knowi of yoais, I have oft friends and special! The (irst note, that Durinr^ the last day two or throe weeks. said: "It is not necc few days, I will pay same thing for me. will settle that." I On my return li Sometime after thi March, lagainaskei perhaps spi^nt niort and when the notes to renew them. He know that I have foi that note and keep it He said : do not in in the aiituuui, I sail the evening that Mr. and I repioached hin day, and I paid it. regretted that he had of notes had nothing Mr. Pacaud was intt lie had made a cent -4. F. Carrier Q. Without your knowledge' paper, or money from any one whomsoever. "'''"^' ^'ther.m promises or commercial And further the deponent saith not. {Ihe witness is examined at his own request). ' By Hon. Mr. Justice JeMe .•— Q I nnd in the statements produced by 3Ir. Pacaud ifpn, ss - f .^. . , pro„u««orynotepaidforyouforthesumof«4.0 em^^^ of the « h of May, a *loO, paid as being a debt to Mr Desbnrnf^ • '•* f ' ' ^•"' ^"^^^ "^ ^ay, a sum of note paid for the sum of .^4U0 hfc' w. m ,' n al n'"' ''''''' ''"'^ ^'^^>'- "^ P™""--y received from Mr. Pacaud. Y^ i" e a^th t'" t '"',' "'*'''*'' "'^■''''^ >-" ^ave three item. We are prepared to h^lr vol, '" ' " 'lechiration respectmg these Sinc^I h^t.::: M"p3:S;:Jr;'r"^ ^^r ^^^- ^--^- ^^'^ <« ^^hat occurred, of years, I have often had ocr'ioT. to a k M. P "" ' "';^^' "^'''"■'^'■'' *^^™^ ^•"- '^ ""'"^er friends and .speciallv Mr. £^.1,^ t, '"'^ T\^^ """' ''''° "'^'"'^ °"'°'« «*''»y The first note that 'of $400^X^7 "" 1" T "'' ^''"' ^ "'"^ "' ^^''"^"^ °*" >"--/• Burin, the last days o Ap, I ;' ^ " 'iV.r V ' V ,"' '''' '' '''' «'^"^"^ "" ^^'P'- two or three weeks I went o\t l ! , T ^"'''' '"'""^l*"? to remain there for -i.l-'Itisnot neces.irv.for;tuo :"''■'" 'V".""""' '''''^'' ^'^'^ -^^ ^e f^'w days, I will pay the" note an vwi, T. "°'''' ^ '"" P''"'"'^'>y '>-' i» f^'"- '"^"'^- ^oa tl.at note and keep it, and w HVo ^t i ff "?'' ^"^'"-^^'^ ^ ^^•" §" «»«»• I will pay He said : do not in on e ie vo e "' T.' ^'"' ""'"'''J'' >'«" will repay me. i" the autunm, I said : th^^^^Z^^'Z^'' '"1 'T''' '''' ^"' ^'^^ - '«ter. the evening that Mr. Pacaud n le it deposi io L^h \ "5 *'T' ! '''' "°^ •^""^ "'^t" and I reproached him for having don Tn td^ "^f^ '" f " '^-^^'-*«' ^la.v, and I paid it. I considered that T di,l ,, . ? that I would pay him the next regretted that he had paid i or ml altho, g M n'' . . T\ '" ''^ ^'^«^'^™^''' ^^^ ^ of notes had nothing to do with the liieofn' '"'™'' '^'^^ ^^ "°'°- This question Mr. Pacaud was inL-estinrh nwinrthe ^^^^^ ' '''' ""^ '^"^^ --' that "e had made a cent out Sf that. ^^:Xt'^Z:::Z Jj^^t^^^^^ 696 G. M. Dichine receued money in Ihat Bare dee Chalenrs matter. Mr Pacaud m.do no gift to n.e ; he HZ" r"' "" '' ^'•' '"•'" ''^"'^- ^^-^'^ "^ ^'^«'- ^h^'^ I ^-^ - law.tudent. the t^ o Langehera. ..ho a.^ my personal friends as they a.e my political friends, had done so Z me. I mnot r:ch and I am olten obliged to have recourse to mv friends, and I hope that ^^'"^i^^r '''-''■ '' '- ---^ — ' '-^ ^ "- - ^^^ When I stated that I did not owe Mr. Desbarats, here is the explanation : I ha.l Mcted Tttrhtt:;: hi:;?:iS:°^^^' '^-^ ^ ^°"^*^'^^ ^^-^^ ^ ^^^^^-^ "''^- ^->- ^" "efencung^him, ■Bi/ iJ/r. Beique:— Q. You were not a member when you rendered this service to Mr. Desban.ts'' n. 1 . : J"' '? ^'^^'^o ^"'^ ^ '''^' *''^'*'''' ™*'"'''^'' °" ">*^ -^«t J"ly. 1890. I acted for Mr Desbarats m November, 1888. And further the deponent saith not. manner, that I ne and I swear that ; Chalenrs matter, them as I should 1 knew of that mat that I had to mak And further t At four o'cloc 10 A. M. GILBERT MIVILLE DESCHfiNES, of the city of Quebec, advocate and member bemg duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say :- {This witness is examined at his own request.) Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti ;— Q. You are a member of the Legislative Assembly ? A. Yes, since 1886. Q. For what county ? A. For the county of I'Islet. tv,» ?'^;^!^fi"'^/"/he statements of account produced by Mr. Pacaud an item No. 88-17 of the 13th May laat, which sets out tlmt a promissory note for $150 due by you was paid by him. Have you any explanation that you wish to give respecting that entry ' we ht Jh' "'*' *""' *1'?-'"'! P'^'' ^^' ^^'- ^'*'^""''- ^' ''""'''^ ^y ^'- P^°""J i" his deposition, we have been personal friends since 1880, and I do believe that I do not boast when I state that smce 188.?, when I was received as an advocate, I had made the contests forthe Liberal party in the district of Quebec and elsewhere, Mr. Pacaud endoi^ed a note for me it I!; renewed. I am not ,.u re whether it was renewed when it beom.e .lue. Mr. Pacaud renewed the note, and a« the cashier ol the bank stated Mr. Pacaud received the proceeds of the r enewal note. Mr. Pacaud made the second note. I did not know even that M Paca had paid the note at all. I did not wish to settle the note, and I will not settle U so b"; as I have not received an account from Mr. Pacaud, in a certain case in which Me.s,s Casgrain A Angers were attorneys for Mr. Lavery, who had ac-ted a. revisor against Mess.vs. BelleaucM„.,in which Messrs. Belleau & Co had entrusted ,he defence to the firm ,, advoc^^es of which I am a member, and in which was concerned a case in which witnesses he fa th ot my word and the witnesses are not yet paid. I consider myself personally pay hnn the balance, if I owe h.m any. I swear in the most positive and most solemn G M. DdcMne 697 manner, that I never knew of fli R ' i ~' " and I swear that I never knew that ^e moSv^'riTtt t "T'^' ''''"''''' '''' newspapers, Chaleur. matter. I have already had business nnH^t ItI?' .''''"' ^'''"' ^he Baie des them as I should have done. I swear i. l" nfo^n v ^^ ^'''^"^'' «"*^ ^ ^^^^^ settled knew of that matter nor of manv other f wS C i ' "' ''°'""" """"'^^ ^^"^ I — that I had to make. ' ''^'''^ ^'^ '« ""^ 'accused. That is the declaration And further the deponent saith not. J. b£langer, Clerk of the Commission. hmi, FCBEC, [■ lec. ) ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA, Province of Qui District of Quebec. T .T,.?rf ""/^/ *I" ^rf ^"''' °*; '^"' ^"''■^"'^' constituting and appointing the Honourable Louis A^^Jett^, Judge of tlie Superior Court, th(3 Honourable Louts Francois Georges Babv Judge ot the Court of Queen's Bench, and the Honourable Charles Peers Davidson, Judge ot the Superior Court, Commissioners to inquire into and report on the facts and circum- Btances which preceded, accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 04 Victoria, chapter 88, in so far as it relates to the Bale des Chaleurs Eailway Company 18th SITTING. and n"nl -on?''''' ' ^^^ ^'^ November, in the year ofOur Lord one thousand eight hundred ' Present : Tlie Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. Jett^;, President, Louis FRAN501S Georges Baby, " Charles Peers Davidson, Commissioners The undersigned apply to the commission for an order to : The Grent North Western Telegraph company, to the Canadian Pacific Railwav Telegrn nh company lor the production of all the telegrams and messages sent and exchanged between lamest Pacaud and the Honourable Messrs. Kobido>,x and Chs. Langelier, or any of them or sent by these latter to the said Ernest Pacaud during the months of March and April' one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one. ' (Signed) JOHN S. HALL, Jr., Q. C, n V ,., XT , THS. CHASE C\SGRAL\,Q.C. Quebec, 4th November, 1891. ^ 4th November, 1891. Order. Present : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis A. JETrii, President, Louis FRAN501S Georoes Baby, " Charles Peers Davidson, dianPn^I^^T^, ""' ''l^"'^P'^°f i°" °''^«««'-«- ^- »• H'^" ^^^^ T. Chase Casgrain, tZZTZna'. dian PanM Railway Telegrayh Company an.l the Great North Weston Telegraph Company do produce all telegrams and messages sent and exchanged by Ernest Pacaud to the Hon. Me'4rs Eobidoux and Chs Langelier, or any of them, or sent by these latter to the said Ernest Pacaud, during the months of March and April, one thousand eight hundred and ninety PHILIPP his deposition By Mr. Ca Q. Mr. Vai Pacaud was tlu that cheque pai amount corrosp you had not fou had told you tin on the Bhio des ns you already 1 Government ; I Governments th A. I unders dinary, thnt lett( Q. It is not A. Well, tha I had a letter of. Mr. Chrysoslome before I had that from the Governi Q. That WHS cheque required I Hon. Mr. Jus I must say :\J for the enquiry w might have given another Govenmn Mr. Casgrain: What I unde transaction an exti the same kind pro\ paper, or that he li The Witness:— I would not ht Langelier's guarant. the Government th( obtained money on hand. Mr. Casgrain .•— I would ask, Mr p. VaUiere 699 PHILIPPE VAILIERP r.r n i === l.iB depcitlon a« follows : ' ^"'^''' '"^""''^cturer, again appeared and continued % ^l/»'. Casgrain :-~ Q. Mr. Valli^re, I asked vnn th^ e n • Paca.ulwasU.ehoi;ieror:'LXe r^,^^^^^^^^^^^ been at the Lank;Mr that cheque passed, Mr. Pacaud gave his n to Vo,' '^ ■','' ^"'""'■■«>^i«"^>r. and to have .mount corresponding to the cheque in question an I ''"'^ ',""''"^ "^^^'"^^ ^•^^'"■"«^')- «" you had not foun,t<„d, ha th„".r •'"' '''"""'"" ""h<"vil„cs. Mr. Cusgrain: — What I understood from Mr Valli^ro w„= fi . i. transaction an extraordinary one Is he ad air ,f ^V'^*''' '^''' ^'^ ^^'^^ "^^ ^'kI the the sanu. kind previously, that il h "h a,;'^'^^:;'"^ T"^•^"'■"^ "^^ --thing of paper, or that he had already discounted .^ had letters of credit or other Government The Witness. ■— l.eG„ve,„„„.M.hsrei. no difBcnl.y, . IwHt ,, „ h° r'"'""^-" ^""l' » '«"» from .M™. .on,,, on „„,„ ,„^„, >■ , , eoroJJltirrit/e T S^^^ Mr. CdSfjrain : — I would ask, Mr. Vallifere to produce that document. \P I \ •700 P. Valliere The WitnesH : — I can not produce it, I wtint it. Mr. Oixgrain : — Well, read it. ' The witness declaring that it would be difficult lor him to read the document. Mr Bid- ! reads it as follows : que reads it as follows : Minister's Office— Public Works. lOth February, 181)1. ^wkV^'A' f'^'V P"''''°" *° '^^^"'"'^ lAoney soon, I suppo-e that you can raise some with the Order in Council in question. HECTOR LANGEVIN. The Witness :— That is a letter of credit, I consider it to be a letter of credit, which was given to me in I'ebruary. Bu Mr. Casgrain : — Q. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891)? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891). B;/ Mr. BHque :— Q. For the sum of one thousand and eighty-seven dollars ($1,087) ? A. For a claim that I had. There was no money, and I was given that Order in Council to raise one thousand and eighty-seven dollars (11,087). By Mr. Qasgrain : — Q. It was an Order in Council ? A It was an Order in Council, and with that Order in Council I can raise the money aa with Mr. Chryso.xt6me Laiigelier's Order in Council. A. You do not seize the difference there is between an Order in Council allowing a certain sum ot money and a letter of credit such as those which were issued in this instance. Q. Notice that it IS an Order in Council which was not voted, the money was not voted, It was to have been v(,ted at the last session of Parliament ? A That is a letter of credit, the money was to have been voted at the last session, it was voted ; I got it collected and I have not been naid yet. Q. Mr. Vnllifere, you know that an Order in Council is of no value until it is approved ou not ' ''"°' "'^' '^^''" '^ concerns the Federal Government ? You know that, do A. Well, if the Government did not vote the money, I would not have any ? Q. That IS not the questi.^n. Do you know that an Order in Council can have no effect at all until it is approved by the Governor? It would not be extraordinary if you did not know It, and I would not blame you if you did not, an ordinary mortals do not know it '> A. I have them. Q. Now, dc am an Ordur ii A. There n Q. You pro A. No, I do By Mr. Beii Q. Will you A. It is in I Mr. Beique . What I wish him by the witn ''The minist that a similar sui before the ParJia That is what Hon. Mr. Jut That is not a Mr. BHque :- Perhaps I do Hon. Mr. Jus If often happc IB available ; then Mr. BHque :- Exactly, that a letter of credit,. Hon. Mr. Just I do not know will lead to nothini Mr. BHque :— I understand tl and that certain un appropriation not h of letters c*" credit. Hon. Mr. Justic By a special wa are two altogether d p. Valliere 701 ^^^^A. I have not .udied the ,..e.i.., hut when there a. ..Je. H.e thlt. I ,o not .n.e an. I S:;t ZST '''' '''-''^'^ ^«'-- ^ '-*- Of credit i.ued h, a Government A. There ,nu8t he a difrerence, I suppose. Q- You produce tliat Onler in Council' A. No, I do not produce it, I can rea"" "'■«' Mr. Beique :~ him^rhJwtt:;'^^^ ^"^^^^^^^^ ^« *•"■« = ^-^^-^ ^he document which wa. handed to thati^ii^rr .^i:^srs:p;;r^:::;t2r:^ ^ ^^-^^^ ^^ ^^- v-i.. before the Parliament at his next se..io,f " ^ '""'"' ^°' ^^^^ ^"'» 1891. to be laid That IS what I call a letter of credit. Son. Mr. Justice Baby:— That is not a letter of credit, Mr. Beique. Mr. Biique :— Perhaps I do not understand what is a letter of credit. Hon. Mr. Justice Baby ;— Mr. Biique ;~ . lettrol'- ;er.:!. "-""^ ""•• ' ""■'-'«"- - ^ • !=«- Of c«.U. I „„ae„,.„. .„., ;. Hon. Mr. Justice Baby /— itfr. Biique :-^ I understand that letters of credit are is=,nori ^k »i, and that certain unforeseen wants ^r sent hls^^^^^^^^ '^-^^'^ ""* been voted appropriation not having been voted byUe Hou e Z!^^ """'^ '' """'''' '''• *'^ ot letters c*" orcdit. ^ ^°"^^' ''^'^^^ ^^nts must be provided by means Hon. Mr. Justice Baby ;— By a special warrant ; that is altogether differnnt • « i»*t .. r ,• are two altogether different things. ' * ''"'' °^ ^'^'^" '^"'^ a special warrant 702 P. VaUiere Mr. Beique ;— futnf "17 "^''' ^^'^l^T °^ ",«'"*,'« ^ P'-«'"i«*^ 0" belmlf «r the Government to pav at a futui. date a siun which must be placed a* .he disposal of the Government. Mr. Hull .— ■ Am I to understand that the Order in Council, or a copy of it, is not to be produced ? Hon. Mr. Jimtice Jett6 : — Mr. B6ique ha^ read the part which will go into the testimony of Mr. Valli^re. By Mr. Biique :— I do not want tu have the Order in Council placed before the Commission even that part of It, A my learned friend objects. I will ask that that letter be produced Hon. .)Ir. Justice Je'ti .•- Prochice both documents, we will judge of them ourselves. Mr. Biique:— ' Q. Mr. Vallifere, will you produce the letter of which you just now gave an extract " .,• ^.!'^ I P™^'"«V^1 ''■""■ ''^"'^^^ ^''" ^"'^*"'' Langevin, dated the 10th of Februnrv eighteen hunched and ninety-one (1891), ns EKhibit No. 166, and I produce as Exhib t N ' 167, copy of the Order in Council to which reference is made in the letter thatUenrCouTci^^'"'"' '''''' '' ' '^"' *« ^^^"^^ *^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ - -"tioned in . ./■ '^^^ ^*"^"" ^" ^^"P^« *"ed to collect it for me ; they said they were going to send a cheque,^ that wa. on the twenty-sixth of September, and I have not yet received he »,. ,• ^' ^°^' ^'■- y^'l'^'-e. in your experience, is it an u-nisual thing for letters of credit to LanT Af ' 'J^P--^"-"*^ ? Have you had occasion '.o get them Irom other Govemnn than the Mercier Government ? ""veiumenis Mr. Vasgrain : — I object to the question for two reaaons. It is evident to the Commission that Mr. Val- here cannot make the distinction and I do not blame him.-between a letter of cred and another document which IS perfectly regular; consequently, he is not competent to sta"e whether he has received letters of credit from this Government or from other Governmems Hon Mr. Justice Baby : — It was you who went into this. By Mr. Casgrain : — t 1\^u7T ^""^"'■'^ P'^'"''""' 't is the witness who went into it. I asked him if he found that the transaction he was making extraordinary, then he said. No, becaiTe I had done it with oi could not keej) ft transaction < cross-question r that question i; between an Orci letters of credit entering into ni to the Commiss judge. Hon. Mr. Ji We regret tl gone into matte to allow the qups would be dispose question is only ; has had letters < Provincial Govei to include even tl Mr. Biique :- I will adopt \ Q. Will you 8 by means of whi( an exceptional mi A. Well, I hai fifteen years I hav fact I did not ask f changed some for c of books for the su: nient is given him For myself, 1 1 Government offices letter to have a cerl received it, that is i Q- Now. Mr. Vfl for Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yes, Sir. Q- One of these A. Yes, Sir. Q. You stated, I note? A. I went once remarked to me that lere ! -i . done it with other Government« Th^ .- ==== ==i===: could not keen nnfrin.r t.. , 1 ^"estion wliich naturally camo tr. Acep parting to tlu; witness was thiw • w^ii i "^""^ ^'^'"e 'o me and one that I atianaaction of that natnre under an oth.'r Jv?"^''''^"'''«''^'^'»«"' -^"d «how me en enng into matters that n.ay cany u iar an 1 a >"'' '" Z'*^ ''"' ^'^^ ^''"^ we «^h ,7be Hon. 3Ir. Justice Jetti ;— We regret that tho question has been nnt ■ h Tall! h""""'' ''"^ "^ '"'""^ ^^'Che IbrernTr;," "^ ^.'•^^■^' - «Pito of ourselves questionis only a repetition of the oLlL u J^'' ^^''^''''' ^^^ not to snecif\ Y provincial Government. We would ..refer it n I \'0^-ernments than the present to include even the present Provincial Govt„me„t " "" '""^ ^'"'^'^ terms' so ^ I will »d„pt y„„ !!„„„„,, ,„^^^,|^„ ... oxcep..„„„ „„„„ „, i, ,, ,. „^, „:, °;;»f^„^ -f P.«...i..o„- ,.„.e w„. guar.n^e" l! A. Well, I have be«^n thirt,- ,.„ . For my,e]f, i ,,.,« hot ,e,„i,ed a lelLr „7 r! T '""'■ A. Yes, Sir. A. v::r'"° "*' "" *°™"" « ">« '=«"^- ^" Pe„ple . :o4 p. Valliere would undertake to pay the note aa soon as the Government had paid Mr. Chry808t6m.> Langeher's letter of credit attached to my note. - Q. As yourguitraiifeo ? A. As my guarantee ; Thereupon. I told Mr. Dumoulin not to let Mr. Pacaud have the moui'y before I had that? ^ Q. In that first interview Mr. Dumoulin consented to discount Mr. Pacaud's nolo endorsed by you ? A. Yes, certainly ; I have a credit of seventy five thousand dollars («./o,000) I could have got the money at once if I had wished. ; *-uu u i.»u Q. When Mr. Dumoulin, so consented to discount Mr. Pacaud's note endorsed by von for the sum of twenty thousand dollars («20,000), waa Mr. Charles Langelier present ' A. No. ' Q He was not there ? A. No. Q. You are very sure ? A. I am very sure. Q. It was not until the ne.xt day ? A. It was not until the next day hat I brought him with me. Q. He was there altos;ether by accidi-nt ? togetter^^ ''"' '" ^'' ^'"''''"'^'' "'""'' ' ^ ""'"^ '"* ^'"^ ' "™^ ""'^^ ™'' ^^ ^'" «° *« '*^« ^lub Q. Why did you go to the Banque du Peuple on that occasion ? A. To give Mr. Dumoulin the letter which I had received from Mr. Webb. Q. And to tell him that he might give the money to Mr. Pacaud ? A. To tell him he could give the money to Mr. Pacaud. Q. Had Mr. Chs. Langelier any knowledge of that conversation t A No, because he was outside. Mr. Dumoulin went out afterwards to ask him not to ^UlgCl; IllUi ( K Q. He was in the vestibule ? A. He was in the vestibule. for ?'^" '^"'^ '"''* ^°" "^^^^ ^"^ ''"''^'' respecting the deposit which Mr. Dumoulin asked A. Yes. Q. And you said, I believe, that Mr. Chas. Langelier did not promise a deposit ' A. He did not pn.mise. When we were outside Mr, Langelier remarked to me that it was tiresome for those people to be always asking the same thing, that the head office had the largest deposit, and that the agency expected still another ; that it was tirpsome for him ; that he could not do that without asking Mr. Shehyn to be good enough to do it • that It was not within his competence. ' And further deponent saith not. C'. N. Armstrong 705 By lion. Mr. .Justice Davulson .— A. Section A, E is (i,e r -^°i^"";::::;":;:,°r::r--- ■• --- «». . .„ ,_,„. December, ,885. "• "» "'' iMeroolomal Kailwaj, dated 2a.hTf "''^^^^::;::::;:^:^°' ■■- ""*'o".i »«ree.e„. ,..„«,„ „.,„^. between .„e «. .„d rou. T; if;^;'';^ ''"■"■"=-^« «»n.p.ny .o J ' '^ H- Is the agreement now shown vn., • Henr,MacF.,an, .ated the sri - f ^r ^Ts " ^ ^ '''' ^ "contract with between you and MacFarlane ? ' ^®''' '^ '^^^ ^"W of the contract made A. I believe it to be a true conv t a«ke., to produce in m, examinatio^p;; oTsr I r^"™^ "°°""^'- ^ ^ I ^a, t-ne Thefirstoneis,.statement«hLing h "ami *^ memorandum of them at th" and the amounts of payments made onl^lZTZ^^^'^'''^'''''^^-^^^ fyled as E.,,bit No. 173. The next is a staten en the n "" ^'"^ ''^^^^^ ^^*- Go e..„„.ent on account of subsidies, voted brthem fvl T'^ "''' '^ *'^ ^°'"'-- statement of the payments made by the OuJL r ' "" ^''^^'' ^O- 174. Also a r ^'"^^'^ ^0- 175. Statement of Ir n^" ^ ," 'T"""' '" "°°""* of subsi^.^.tL es Ch.,eurs Railway Company. rySXm^TmV'r'''' ™'^^^ ^^ '^^ ^ feachsect,onofthe line by ten miles sec^n, ij ' t^r "' "' ^^'^'^-^^^ ''o.t here som. statements you a^ked me to prepatL^v^^^^^^ ^"- "^^ ^ ^- also Q- You can state what they are ? 45 708 C. N. Armstrong A. This is a statement of the payments niado on each section by the two Oovern. nienfs,— the total payments,— lyled im Exhibit No. 178. The next is a statement of the subsidies granted by sections by the two Governments, and a memorandum of tiio acts referred to, fyled act Exhibit No. 179. This forms a total of $t)8(l.(IO() from the Local Govern" meat and $020,00(1 from the Federal Government, making *1,30(),(KX), without counting the special grant of 800,0(M) acres of land converted into cash. Q. That includes the Cascapeilia bridge? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Over how many miles ? A. 100 miles. The memorandum I have made is as follows: The Federal subsidies were a special vote of $300,000 to build a 20 mile branch of the Intercolonial, commencing at Mel apediii. The amount proving ins efficient, this vote wa-i transferred to the Buie des Chakurs Railway Company, on condition of their constructing 20 miles. In addition, an ordinary- grant of ,$3,200 per mile was voted for 100 miles of the line. Owing to a special grant on the iirst 20 miles, the $3,200 per mile on this section were paid only on completion of the next 20 miles, (20 to 40), making a payment of $6,400 per mile on these twenty miles. The company afterwards applied for the subsidy on the last 30 miles (70 to 100), doubled back on the previous 30 miles (40 to 70), which was done, making the subsidy on these 30 miles (40 to 70) also of $G,400 per mile, the company under, taking to complete the last 30 miles (70 to 100) without subsidy. The Quobcc subsidy Wiis a vote of 10,000 acres of land per mile, for 180 miles, which was converted into cash at 70 cents per acre, of which 35 cents jur acre is to be puid on each section of the line as constructed. This made a cash subsidy of $3,500 per mile for 180 miles. Subsequently, a cash payment of 35 cents per acre on the last 80 miles ol the line (100 to 180) was applied to the iiieceding miles, 20 to 100, making a cash payment of $7,000 per mile, and the deferred or second 35 cents on miles 20 to 100 were applied to miles 100 to 180. A special grant of 800,lMt0 acres of land, converted according to the terms of the conversion act realized $280,000 in cash, and the second 35 cents per acre would form another sum of $280,0(X), if ever paid. The acts referring to the granting of these subsidies are : Federal : 46 Victoria, chap. 25. • Local Q. What, if any, conversation took place between you and Mr. Pacaud as to the state- 47 8. 49 17. 45 23. 49-50 " 76. 51-52 " 91. 54 " 88. ment njade I or as t.) the f A. Mr. 1 had upoken t( through, as .\ see the men j Q- What, A. Hega settled at unc< Q. Keferri charged for thi A. My cor the rate of $20, WHS an agreem for a contract u amongst the Se Piige 374. Q. Have yc A. I have a a letter press co] Q- ^' you the payment by explanation in rt A. Mr. Pacai "'ly, having no| could get the mai iinticipation of ge not be done as 80( asked him to ol accept a Mr. Pacaud and this bunk. He had negotinted a subsidy through Mr. Pacaud for forty-five or filty-four thousand dollars. 1 thonglit I had better not acce])t it aa a matter of busineris, and refused to accept it. Tlie day after, the bank manager called upon mo and asked me to accept it. " y. A bank in Quebec '! " A. Yes. "Q. What bank? " A. I cannot say. I declined to accept it. A lew days after that Mr. Pacaud came to me and asked me if I would not accept this from Mr. ArMi!'""'' """'e? li]l Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson •- / USISMIM alMBMMMi Mf ''''''"^''' 'mI^H H ^H^ fl^^^^^^^^^^^l 1 m '710 C N. Armstrong q. Did yon go to the door of m. Robidonx'a house in a carriage ? A. No, Sir, I have never been there. I don't know where he lives. Q. Where did you separate ? nn/\'^L"r''""'°f'''''^'"''*"*^*^" ^""P^^- ^'- l^'^^'-^"*! ^nd Mr. Langelier went off I understood, to go u, lunch, and I went to my office. Q. You are sure you did not go anywhere in a carriage after they went out of the bank > in the carriage and I entered Mr. KobidolS houl'- Mr.tLido.:::^.^^^^^^^^^^ ^^™^^"^^ ■ ^. ti '^S^i::^!^;^ there. ortsr ::ffiL ^-^^^^^-^^^-^aiitt. .^su^.::z:^::z^:;^' By Mr. Hall ;— ctaim ; ' """'' '■°" """' "■*'"' '° '"^°™ *= <^"'i«"'" "f M,. Light refrrrod to in v„„, cost of ihe work on this L>0 ,nile section " Tl,l J- iU ft ' *" comparative by Mr. Ligh. ..,. one ,oc:^;::^ive:^^^:>::;i:: t^:::^xz;^rk -"'^ = ;:;';h -;.:;;: zu;^' s; ?"^;;^"" v^' r '^'f '- "^"- "^ -- '--^ The next ,o the si.tl^ en ml s : o^" T ZZT^T ''" "? '''' "''"' ■^■^-'^"-' ^I' and .he last one to sections K^'Cn^nd X,'!:;^ ^.^ ^-^g ''^C'^irTl ^' are ^e am,>unts mentioned in the accounts certi.Ld to by ^^'SIS. I^odu!:^ ^^ (Certiiictes produced and fyled as 181A, 181B, 181C. 181D. 181E, 181F and 181G.) Q. Mr. LeDuc, I understand, was your engineer ? A. He was my chief engineer. Q. Certified to the work done n« between you and the sub-contractors ? A, That was one of his duties of course as mv engineer Wo ho^ ♦», measuring all tl>e w..rk on the line. ^ ^ ^'^ ^^^ responsibility of C- N. Armstrong Q- He was also the enginp-r of th. A IV.i «;.. 1 ''"fe'"P"r ot the compnnv ' to be employed. '^""^'f- He has charge of all the papers, and still continues Q- I i!:^lerstand you to sav flmf , u '""ues A. I have copies'of soroVtt., 'ZZ, ^ '1 *'^" ^^'"■«-*- ' Q- Do you recollect who presented th s cer fieat!°f m ''""'^' '^"^ ^^'^^ «f "^em. co.fJt^riSr--^^entohin.yr--^^^^^ -^^^Z^- "" - >» .'.owi to'k ..o,„ npon „,.„._ A.Itm,«,bo.„,perh.p.,|,„e„ , "712 C. N. Armstrong don^"" '^^"^ *'"0""*8 that are detailed out hero do not represent the value oi' the work A. They do. Q. Do they show that tliat was the amount paid out to the coniractors.-I mean to the stin-contnictors? 'V Vx*^ ^"'"^ °' *'"'' ''"^^^ ^°"® "*■ "^^ '"'''•^ ^ ^^'^•'' P'^''^^ "'y '^'6 company. Q. This IS made up according to the terms ol y„ur contract with the company '' A. Precisely. ^ Q. I am asking you for these tignres showing ihe actual viilue of the work done. A. \ es, Sir, that is the actual Vidiie of the w^'. •'"tithinkitis because produeoa« Exhibit No. 182. '"' '"'"^'^'"^' -"""""t au,| lo. the .samo work, which I now company in existence Ry Mr. Hall:— Q. Mr. Armstrong, I suppose yon are awaro tl,.,f ,i 1.0.0. the pre^nt Baie cles Chaleur. KaS^'m ;^" "'^ A. Inhere was (,ne nnder the same name; cio!iarjib;^:";n;:i!;:LS,;z:x:.,;:::^r! "'^'^ ^""■^-" - ^-^'^-n thou«and A. I am not aware of tliat, no. Witness : — amounts which I m-pht have cliarired in f " "" "'""""^ ^"^' ^^we were other considerably, in excess of «298,000. I ex i edTCt'i; '", 'T. '*"' '"'''' '"'""""^ ^"''^ "^« ^"« the Government transfer, $900 000 but'as «' no f '?^ "^ ^'' " ''"''" *'^"' '^"^ *"" '-""""nt of ment which would shew [he e/act^mlmt f rdlte "'l^lh ' ' "'f -'v ""^ "°^ '^ ^''^^- simply lor the amount paid, they would shew a bnl !^ '^ '"'"'"''"' '"^'"^ «''«^it«d iieu of *29S,000, l3J.5,3G0.o9 As I e^p aineJ at th T ? '"' '" ^^-^ -"* ^P''" !««*- i" exact amount, as I was only getting about ,^ hat of T'"\ \ T. '"^ ^'^'"'''^"''^^ '^^'"'•^ '^e I have seen in the newspaper! a memo t ni wa tn "" '' '''f"'' "^^^^ ™"^1' ^HHerence. account-a very exaggerated one T'o 't k. v vh tl'elThfV"" ;'" -"^'^"'^"^^ '^ '^' so, I would like to say some.hing about it • if not h I ^^l^^^n ''eposited ; because, if too ridiculous on the face of it. Irefer oamemorani , ''•'"' ''^"' ^Peaking of ; it is ^170,000. ^ ^ memorandum shewmg that I owed the company By Mr. Hall:— Q. With reference to this Exhibit Nn isq oi> ■ .,^ . Juetoyoum3,360.59,areweto.mS^^^^^^ April there was on your clain, or that you still have aSer la ^ n^thc afn" '"" ''^^^ ^"'^ "^"'^'^ I c.;ti ^:::s;s: "^ ^"-- ^ --- --^rc^r •;;':?! opinion tha. Aud further deponent aaith not. 714 Hon. C. Langelier THEHON CHARLESLANGELIER.ofthecityofQnebec,ProvincialSecret«.y,.,g,.,l 39 years, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say : liy the Hon. Mr. Justice Baby :— Q. Mr. LMng;elier, you are Provincial Secretary for the Province of Quebec' A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. And you have been in the administration since A. Since the month of August, ISiiO. Q. In the course of the explanations given by Mr. Pncaud, your name has been ratlier frequently mentioned. We wish to give you an opportunity of justifying yourself, if vou thmk proper, concernmg certain items which have been mentioned. It appears, from Mr. Pacaud's evidence, that you have received from him. at ditfer.-nt ioTo'i' oa ""'T'^ *™™ ""' '"" ''^ *^*^"'^^^ ^^'^^ ^'^ h'"^ *''0'" Mr. Armstrong, the sun, „f »y,-91.-.}. These sums are mentioned in the different items to which I shall refer First of all, in order ot date and also according to the bank, statements furnished by Mr. Pacaud in which the transactions took place that of the Banque du Peuple being first. The first Item I see and to which Mr. Pacaud has referred, is a cheque paid to Mr Frangois Pirent for you, -Mr. F. Parent being the contractor for a house, in course of con- etruction, which belongs to you. A. That is perfectly tme. ff Your Honour permits, I shall at once say, to si m pi ifv mat ers. that I am acqui -.ted with Mr. Pacaud's evide::ce, which was published in the ±,lecteiir, and if the text is correct regn Jing the sums mentioned by Mr. Pacaud as havin.^ been given to me, it is perfectly true. " saiQ*^;/^''^','''^?*''*''^'^'""''"''™"'^'^'^"' SO over than to you. There is the sur ,.i »918.2,i paid to Mr. Parent ? A. Certainly. Q. On the 9th of the same month, deposited to the credit of the Hon. Chs Lan.'elier .t the bavings Bank Branch of the Union Bank, Upjier Town, mOi). A. Yes,YourHon(jur. Fort^eJHoteM'*'*^'''^^*'''"''^'''*'"^ "'"'''*' °' ^'•'' '*'''"" ^""' subscription to th. , ^'^f •/."'"'* '"'^^"tio" this : that it was only later on that I knew Mr. Pacaud h.d subscrihed this sua. forme. It w.is he who wrote my name in the stock bonk, and Mr Pacaud came to me with this receipt afterwards, telling me that he had put mv name down' in any ca.^e he paid the amount lor me ; I have .seen the receipt, which is still in his pos.cs- 81011 • Q. On the li9th May, $17.60 ? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. On the 22nd .luly, S;l,(iO0 ? A. Yes. I think, if I mistake not, that it was the proceeds of a note we had discoiuitc-d together, or rather a cheque that he had given to pay a note which we had to . "ler dis- counted at the Bmque du P.-uple. " Q. On the 21st, deposit for Mr. Chs. Langcilier at the Banque du Peuple, $000" A. Ye,-i. Q. The same day, given to Mr. Chs. Langelier. ^I.-jOO ? A. Yes, mm, which he deposited, and Bl.oOO which he gave me personally. Q. On the 11th July, a deposit to the credit of the Hon. Chs. Langelier $3 000 A. Yes, Your Honour, I ought to say that this deposit was made by Mr. Pacaud ind It was only a few days later that he told me that he had made the deposit. There' only Hon. C. Lans:>lier 715 remained n balance on the $3,000 Ho hnri i , ~" remained the l.aknce, as explained by Mr. PacauT'" ""•' "^"^ '"^ *^'^^'' ^°^ ^^^-'^'^ °"ly Q. The 10th Augnst, $rm ? them quite correct. '^ '""" ^^ith my-bank book. I have considered ^''scounte^; ? ^ i m lavor ol Mr. Den.ers for §3.000, and which he ]^^^'^'!^^^^^1Z:!^ "^^-tment where I an., before before that txme. '^'""^ '" '''e &^eretaryship,but it had happensd Q. Then you only concluded an arrangement already begun 1 w.an...con:;::;^;;:;;ti:t:;;:;r" ^" --^ — pe^onany.-. Q. Now. have you anything to .ay about these difTerent transactions ? house Which L^;:-ll,,^^::;^::2;;;--^ when decided to build this bu, d ,t. U, told me at the time that hlw' ' ea^K n '''?"' °'''"^^ ''^''' "^d"^'«l ^^ - ;.«ra.U.de f. what Z had done ..; hi^^S :: hf up n^S • ^ LST whatever. On several occasions nZ^^^tV.''"T'''''''''''^'''^'''^'^^^y'^-^ forgotten what I had done, and that ^o^'l^:,^''^ "n "'''*' '"^^ *'"' "« '-'' "«* me a service he would do it with plea.^.ire. "'"'' *"''"'' "'=^^ '^^' '=»"'d .ender p Jid s:: ^r;t ii; ;h::r.^j7;;r ^n ^'^^'^ ^ ''-'-^■'^ - '^-^'-^ ^"^^ '-use, Mr eitheH,vendorsinganote,orbyg?i ^ ;;;, :;:t "i.'f •""" "■^' '"^ '" «"3' way, « wlien the first P=>yments ^1^1""':^,; ;;::;:";^''';j' -*J'.--h p,easni4. Last As Mr. Mercier has said, before he went toEu o o^ T"'' "^'" ^^'""''' «^^'^i^t'n«- anote endorsed by hi,n for S-(,o„o. Mr Fic d 5' i' ''n ««"'V'"°"^'' *« '''••^^■^ ^^'^h me make a trip to Europe before there v "is a V nnostio 1°^ ,.'■ 'p '•"' ''''' '^''''^ P=-"P-ed " Mr. Pacaud had taken a very active part hi the two .2, ^ ?"' ''^^^ ^'^"'^"'•^ 1"e«tion. place, and he was really worn out ill L7w^ ^ "' ''''^*'""« ^^''^'c'l h^'^ j'l^t taken The reason Mr. Paeaucf gave ; ^a tl At :; f^'r^nT"","""'^^' '^'^ ^^ *"" '^ ^^"-P .Bcounted at one of the banks herein irwM. "1 r^'""' '"^ ""'^' '^"'' having it I'e away in Europe, and when the n t^iy du in a 7 'h ' Tf '"°" ''"^^ '""^' ^e might genients which I was t„ make, in case ' that ho^ '"''' ""' ^'^'^ "'"^''^ ^''« «™n- W'i« afraid, that his name being in the'la ks it h^""™"^'''"^'"*^ ^'^^e not complete, he bn protester, and that would injure Ws cred t '"" ""' ^''^^ ^^'^"^ '^"«' >' ^'""'d Iri: n I n 716 Hon. C. Laurel ier Tins is the principal reason ho cravo mo for refusing to enclorso a noto for mc. IIo addod ; "You .should n>niembor that I told you I would help you. I iim in a position to do so now." Henskcd me in wanted the whole iunount of it'4,()00rtt onoe ; I told him no, that I only needed it in instalments to meet the acconnt" as tliey became due. Ho said : " If you do luit want the whole amoinit at once, I have money now that I can advance yuu, you can pay mc hack, it the Mini is too great we cnn .-settle our account when ynu have sold your liouae in Breho'uf street— which wns fcr sale-oi Avhen y-,u .have borrowed the money," that is to say, the loan I was about arranging with the Building Society ; forlmust addthat la.stspiinR I applied to .Mr. i'hilippe Valli^re, who is one nf the directors of the Building Society nf Upper Town, with Mr. Pacuid's knowledge, and I hud asked him if I could readily (jbtain a loan from the .<.ociety oi which he was one of the principal directors. Mr. Valiicre had suid that certainly I could easily obtain a lorn, but to wait until the buil- ding was more advanced, ai^ it wonld then be easier to liorrow the money required to comiili'ic its construction. But at tliat time, I solemnly declarethut Idid notknow that Mr, Pacau 1 had a single cent from the B.iie dcs Chaleurs affairs. I know that Mr. Pacaud had made a great deal of money out of his newspaper, he had often told me so. I had some knowledge oi tlie firm's business, I know that I hey had large contracts >ith the Government, and that Mr. Pacauii had half of the piotits of Belleau & Co. This is the only explanation I have to give on this subject. I mu t say that since twenty years, I have been Mr. Pacaud's friend, :ind over and over again, w.ien he wanted money and I had it. I lent it to him, and if I want.'d money he lent it to me. Dozens of times we have endorsed or made notes together wlucli we had discounted. And any one knowing the relations that have ever existed between Mr. Pacaud and myself would not be surprised at this circumstance. Q. You have saiil and the Hon. Prime Minister has also said, that he had oflered ynu a note ? A. He left it with me. Q. A note endorsed by him for the sum of $4,000 ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Yon did not u.-e this note? A. No. Q. Not at all ? A. Not at all. Q. Did you give it back to him ? A. I gave it back to the Hon. Mr. Mercier after his return from Europe. He reproached me at that time. He oin the I cannot say exact! Q. Will you lij witness examines t A. This does n figiues, I think thi based my calculati. Q- Will you pr, A. I will produ- Q Now, Mr. r.i Hon. Charles Lange A. Yes Your H Q. I read in Mr the order of Hon. H A. I endorsed, t Tarte, the notes thf given to witness.) I which are these endc Q. That is it. A. I state that o endorsement. I also loOOO signed by Erne Q. Look and see or a sum of $2,150, on A. I remember tl and signed by me as i there is the endorserfti Q. This note was A. No, Your Hon Q. Was It Mr. Fen A. It was Mr. Pac from the proceeds of t Q. This note was i A. The election in ''l>i{:«ftf.-£^««^i£iMt«->f^ ..? Him. C. Langelier to hiMi lu Ki.roj.e r ^ ' -""^ 'nont.oned and $;j(.o whid. you rtiniitted A. Yes. I ciiiinot gave the ticrure.s ovfipHv fr tl>e C«nnnis«ion to understand 11^1 do 'Z I" '"'■;,"°^-^'; '•"' " "''« about that. I wish money lacked him to help ,n,e' I ha e n., ot etT/ '''• ''^'""' ^""'^ '"« '^" 'hit . Q- Y.m have in your hand, belongin ' to h n • ."'^' '''°""* "'"^' ^'•- ^''^^'--^'hI- l''l«'he«u,nol-. """^"'S '« h„n, either as hi.s debtor or some other I caiu:ro::;:tnr m^;;:r ""'^^'' "°"" ^^- ^--'' ^^ - ^^-oo and somethm, witnir ^i::: the ::.;:;d;;5'"^'^" ' ''^^^ ^-^^ -^^"^ -" -^- *'■ ^^ ^^ -eet . (The A. I will produce my statement P,.,v,o., r ON \r r J" "'■"■'^^nient. -t^ei haps I am wrong myself Hon. chZiYwrt I 's„T::;r,i: '" ""«"■'"'•• <""■-"• ■>*' »"»»ed >.y ... A. Yes Your Honour, Q. I read in Mr. Pacaud's statement " \f„v m v tl.e order o,Hon.H.Mercier.end3 by Fa'ndC f ;Zr '"'r^'' *° P*^^' ->' -'« '^ A. I endorsed, together with Hon /J- ''"'^ ^„'^""^«'»*''- '^"'1 C. A. P. Pelletier? " Tarte, the notes that^ have bet''n> mtfoned in ^he e"'" ''''• ^f^''' ""^ ^-"-r, and Mr given to witness.) I understand -hat W H^Lt 1,""" '*"«*-"l-'y- (The raotes are which are these endorsements? ^"'- "»nour wishes me to identify the notes on Q. That is it. A. I state that on a note .signed bv Mr p..„ * t> , endorsement I also state tk^tTlllf^Zl^^^^^^^ ^'o^^'"'' '"''' ^^-^--y loOOO .,gned by Ernest Paeaud there is n.y ;ndotemLt ' " '''' ^''"'^'•>'- ''^^' ^^^ or a^.^:;^^^t::-:^rsr ssr^^^ r — '^ m. xart, A. I remember the circumstance p rfectly sta e tb ''°"^""^'^"''^' ' and signed by me as maker, dated the S £ch iS J n "." ' '"'' '" '"^ handwriting, there is the endorserftent of Mr. Tarte and T. Ernest Paca?id''' '^'" """""' ''^ ^^.w] Q. This note was not paid by you ? ' " A. No, Your Honour. Q. Was It Mr. Pacand that paid it •' Q. This note was for ? A. The election in Montmorency. It ''I 718 Hon. C. Laugelier to pa'^: t w" ''' ''' "''" '"° '"'"■ ^'^ ''^ ''^- ^•^°'^"'' P'^^ "-- •' Were you called upon A. What other notes? Q. -So.OOO A. I was not asked to pay them ; I suppose Mr. Pacaud paid them Q. ile waid he paid them ? A. I have no reason to '0"/ight just now, Mr. Langelier, you admitted that the sum of «3,000 was given you or rather aent you by Mr. Pacaud on the llth July ' A . Is ^ our Honour speaking of the deposit of $3,000 that was made Q- 1 es .' A. The deposit was made without my knowledge, but I know it was to mv credit at fh. bank, and out ol this su,n I gave a cheque to Mr. Pacaud for $2,072 Q. \ou say that it was maie without your knowledge ? A. Yes. It was some days afterwards that Mr. Pacaud told me that he h^,! r^. i deposit oithat amount; and it was Mr. Pacaud who made it himsTlf, ^tra^r^ ^1^^^ Q. The deposit slip Exhibit 61. is it in your handwriting or that of Mr. Pacaud's " A. The deposit slip of the deposit of $3,000, Exhibit 51, which is now shewn me is in Mr. Pacaud's handwriting and not in mine. ' Q. Before entering the ministry were you not a member of the House ? A. Of the House of Commons of Canada. A. As commissioner. Q. In connection with the Baie des Chaleurs affair ? A, Yes, Your Honour. Q. Did you make a report of your work ? A. I made three reports I made two that I shall call special reports, and 1' made a general report upon the whole matter after it wa« over. As there were ver; pressin^Sj 1 made a report on behalf of the claims which I had already proved correct for wUsumsl '"' '"'^'''^ * "''*''" °"°'^'' °' *" ""^ "'"'' °"^''"« ^°^ ^'«'«^«"t '^"'"^ <>' A. I investigated all the claims that came before me. Q. Here is one. I do not know if it is the first or the last ? Hon. C. Langelier 719 made tw„ l,c,id„ ,|,e ,i„„l ,,.p„„, „,,,i,|, ° ""• "» '•'"t .,., u « U,„ ,l,.t „, „„ ,„,. , Q. The Government decicUd, I think to r,„v o • contractors and suh-rontrartors ? ^ ^ *'*'''"" ''^'■*'"» claims mad. against the A. Yes, Your Honour. had put forward as GovtrnTe?m:- Titr "'"'"'^^"^"- '« ^^^ ^'^ claims which j A. Yes. He is deputy-registrar of the Province " Q. He is your brother ? A. Yes. Q. Ha^ he anything to do with the Public Worl-. n„. . , A. Nothing what ■ '"- "^'^'^* Department ? apart from this Baie d"rSl*/'itTe'rte\'ll'" n -.r I'T''''''' "^-'"ismoner ; but. Works J^epartment. ^ ^^ "°""nfe' whatever to tlo with the Public Q. You knew, did you not, that Mr. Chrvsostnm. i Q. You knmv Mr. Thorn, do >„„ „„i , ""■ oncetir,: ''°"' """'■ ' "•"" ^"™" '"- - c«»»ec.i„„ with .hi. ..fair. I „« hi„ ^i. You know Mr. C. N. Armstrong ? A. Yes, I know Mr. Armstrong. Q. Did you know that Mr Parand wa« ,v • i Armstrong's claim, or the negotiations r Thorn wl"* ''"^ '?''' gentlemen's claim., Mr- to form a new company, or sometlHng o7the ti^d T "^"'"^ "' ^''^ '^'•- ^^«^«tro„g, so L A. 1 do not remember in the ]pn«f t ^iA ^ . with Mr. Armstrong's claim Ast Mr ¥hom hT ''"^ ""'■ ^^''^"^ ^^'^ ^^^^ing to t.me I am inclined to think that he must' havo H ^^^' ^r-''' '^""^'^ ^^ ** »« nae at the posmvelyto it-he must have do ,eTo-it would b' ""J' '" '^' ^"^^ ^^»"«'^ «wear 1-ew Mr. Mercierwa. to develop thai pTrt if lelrv^h^^ W^ ^'"" *'-™- he n company with Mr. Mercier and myself ^e hid ? ' ^'i'^'' '"'"«^'*" ^i^ited Gaspesia knew the policy of progress Mr. MercierwLLtV '^ ^'^ ^^'''''''^ speech, • he to me in this sense. ^^' ^''^^'^ *« inaugurate there. Ho may have spoken Q. Mr. Pacaud said that you went with fh. vi went with the Huu. P„me Minister when he left for i ■ 1 .- 7-20 Ilim. C. Langelier Eurcpe witli several of his olleiigueB, and that either on the earn oi- at any rato in Mr Mercioi'M private car, the Bnio .Ion Chaleur.s atl'iiir w ih dirtcuss 'd ? A Yes, Your Honour. It w.w the liist time I li, ard of Mr. Cooper'.-* p'oposition. Mi Mercier convened us in council in order to cmmunicate Mr. l-a(liirnnics letter, ami it w,i.s in our presenc-, alter having' consulted us, that, he diotite 1 to his serr^'tary the letter which h is been iiroduof.! helore the Commission. It wiis tlie letter on which wo decided aa an answer to th.it of Mr. I.aHanime. That was the first time I heard of the Cooper's propo- sition ; Mr. I'a and had never wpoken of it to me before. Q. Yuu met him iilteiwurds ? A. Tiicsecond time I heard the atliiir mentioned was at th.s Brunswick Hotel New York. Mr. Thorn came to meet my collea-ue, Mr. Kobidoux, and myself; the interview la.ited perhaps lour or live minutes. I remember that he asked Mr. Robidoux what gua- rantees tlie Govcrmnent would exact. Mr. Kobidoux answered: "I have not time to go into that now ; you .ire a buMue.'JS man, .)u know what guarantees are; th .srt are the guarantees the Government will require. " Q. Was not it a small car, in which Mi . Mercier and his family were travelling ? A. Yes, very small. Q. All that was said would be easily heard ; those who were in the car could hear anv- thing that {lassed ? A. All those whi. were in Mr. Mercier's private compartment, that is to say, his col- legues, could hear. (^ The ear was divided into ditt'erent compartments ? A. Certainly. Q. Was there any mention made of Mr. Armstrong ? A. Yes, I remember Mr. Pacaud wished to bring Mr. Armstrong into the car, and Mr »xercier said that if Mr. Armstrong wished to come as a friend in a social manner he wa.s ready to receive him, but that it was quite useless to bring him in to talk business, as he positively declined to speak of business matters to him at all. Q. Did you know personally that Mr. Mercier would have no business relations with Mr Armstrong ? A. I did not know what personal relations existed between Mr. Armstrong and Mr Mercier. Q. I ask if you know it '? A. I do not know what reason he might have, but I know that he was opposetl to negotiations with Mr. Armstrong. I did not ask him his reasons. I know that he expressed himself in this way several times. Q. You did not see Mr. Armstrong or Mr. Thorn again after that interview of the Brunswick Hotel ? A. No, I did not hear the matter spoken of till a month after, when I returned from tint trip I made with the Hon. Mr. Robidoux. We arrived here, and a few hours after my arrival the question was submitted to us in Council by the Hon. Mr. Garneau. Q. Have you had occasion to make a report relative to this affair? A. Yes, to the best of my recollection. Q. Will you take communication of this ? A. Yea, Your Honour. Q- Will you A. Yes, it wt To THE IIo.VOURAi "Con " The unj'>tsic "position of M.',. r " Bale des Chaleurs " proposition is in '' pixrlicularly with " honour to concluc " company, which ] This is the docu Q. Under what c A. To the l)est o Robidoux was ill at proposition of Mr. Th to come to Quebec ; i by one of the Ministe other causi- he is ahsc of Mr. Robidoux. Q- VVhiit ministe: A. We were all who was ill. He only Q. That is to say A. Out of the eigl Q Tliere were fou A. Yes. Q. Subsequently, ; A. He came to joi Q. During that tin A. I do not remen matter, urging me to h 46 Hon. C. Lungflier Q- Will you read the document? A. Yos, it vv,.. I who ,,n.pared the following report. OKPARTMBNT OF THK ..rrOH.VRY OENKRAL. To T„. ,Ioxo.H.„.K P^KHUK O.HXK.U, '^"""' ""'^ ''^"' '''^- " CotnAiissioner of Public Worka, '"Id Prime Minister a(/i«m a Government deposit for t fgr^^:^;^^^^^^ -'^^'' -e i"' :^ta "^ I ought to explain that Mr. mZZll "" '' "'"^^ ^^ ^-« cash L '''" *°^ awyers of the Banque du Peunle ^^ ^"""^ "' '^ ^''^O" 'w his reouost t) . influence as I migh have wit ft j^"*^'^««-''e gave this reason nTi ^^^""^ ^^"-e *he attention to the L tiat th h I "^"^^"^^^^ to obtain for him ^'"^ ™' *° "«^ «»oh deposit, and that th, 'u stbn r . "f"' "' '''' •^-'^^' >" ^on rea L j '? ' ''^" ^" I had no objection torelk of,! ''^ ^''^ ^'^'^ ^^^'"'cial T 1^^'^^ Tr'^^ '^ °°"«^^"^^'^ble obtain a depi^sit, but l?wetpo?tre,:V';V *« -Hrar^li- """^'^^ '' '^'^* could not have been to facSl-^ that I made him no promk. Tl ' ^°'''^^^ ^ taken place with Mr. pI^uaanVMr ^"Sr' f r^ ^^ernrctronlvilL ^ *'^' Q. You did not hear nor make n! . '^ ^''" completed. '^"'^ ^"'^ J"«t ^ A.^^0. .^Ihadnothlgto Z^rr'T^'"'^-^^-^^ drew a little to one side as it did n/ ' ""^erstood it was a nrivn. Q. Mr. Pacaud was there? ^e gentle- A. Mr. Pacaud was there. Q. With Mr. Valli^re and yourself. A. Yes. when\rPrcat:::rnrtSrr^"^-^^^--.^twasnotinthe t . UnionBank? ^^^^^^^ ^^^ other note for twenty ZZ^ZTT;:' A. At the Banque Nationale Th;« • , • '^^ a. often happened in the afternoon whe "t 7; '* '^^^^"^^ = ' -'"e to Mr Pac . came up town together and went "; The Clultr °''"^' ' "^"^ *^«-n tf h\/X ^ f''^' afternoon. I asked Mr Pacaud if h ' ^'^'^ ^^ ™eet our friend., rl °^' ^^^ ^e wait for me a moment or'^::me'wUhr ^f ^ "°"^ ^^"' -, h^^ie'd X'^'^ ''" *'- then I will go up with you " T w'nf ., I ^ **" ^^^ '"' ''"swer from th^ R . " [ ^°" ^"^ Mr.LafrancethL. We were thT. :1::^ 1 ^i J-"tered and fT."^,^ ^^^-.^'^^-n'^'e, me m the passage, they verv nnul^ T ? '"^''' minutes, and when f) '^'i^^oury and should find it hfrd toIyTL'ttXtet-/"/- '''''' ^'^^^Tj^r'^ ^^^ 't was to cash the cheque or to caS the £ r!f ' *""'• ^ ''^ ""* ^omember at In i''"^" ^ 724 Hon. C. Langelier and at the irame time as Mr. Pacaiul, about negotiating another of these notes at the Banque du Peiiple in Montreal ? A. I conless fninkly tliat I do not remember this circumt-tance. I remember tJiat I was one day at Mr. Hobid'.aix's. I had gone to Montreal on business for my department. Mr. Robidoux was ill at the time, and 1 came to consult him, about certain matters that particular y concerned the district of Montreal, because generally I take the advice of Mr. Kobidouxorof Mr. Duhiimel, orof Mr. Mercier when heis here, about Montreal matters. I went to 81 e Mr. Robidoux in the afternocn. I remember ihat Mr. Pacaud cnme to his house in the afternoon, he came to see him, but I do not at all renietnber the circumstances. There was no mt nti< n before me on this occasion of notes or of cheques, and I do not know if it was on this occasion, but I have met Mr. Pacaud often at the Government offices in Montreal. \Ve stayed at the same hotel and we lunched together. Q. Perhaps a little incident could help you to remember. Do you remember remaining at the door of the Banque du Peuple in CiHipuny with Mr. Armstrong ? Perhaps that will help you to remember? A. I do not remember. I am loss interested than Mr. Armstrong in remembering it. Q. Do you remember waiting at the door of the bank ? A. That niHy be true. I do nqt remember. I met a lot of people at the Government offices in Montreal. It is utterly impossible for me to remember a precise circumstance like that. It may be perfectly true. Q. Mr. Pacaud, in his evidence, said that you were together, he said that he went up to Montreal by steamboat, do you remember it ? A. It may be so. I went up so many times with him, that it would puzzle me to be precise as to this particular time. It may be so. I cannot swear positively to it. But I can positively swenr that if I went up to Montreal with him on this special occasion it was certainly not in connection with this atl'air ; it was on business of my own department, public busine-s, and I knew nothing of the steps taken at this time as regards cashing cheques or letters of credit. Q. Mr. Webb, in his evidence, said that Mr. Pacauil— when they were in course of tran.s- acting their monetary atlairs— snid that out of tliis sum of $20,U00, $10,000 would go to you? A. He said more than that, he said $20,000, as to taking Q. Is it true that that sum was coming to you ? A. Ah ! that is perfectly untrue, quite false. Q. How do you then explain Mr. Pacaud's speakmg in this way to Mr. Webb ? A. I am very puzzled to explain it. I can explain what concerns myself, but I cannot explain what concerns Mr. Pacaud. I swear jjositively thut there was never any bargainor promise of that nature. Q. Besides the simis that you have mentioned, the transactions, the advances that Mr. Pacaud may have made to you, have you ever drawn the least sum knowing or suspecting that it came from this aH'air ? A. Never. Q. Mr. Pacaud had already several times approached the Government to obtain, us aolicitor or otherwise the settlement, of certain claims ? A. Yea, I huve heard it said. I did not know it personally. Q. Wasi A. x\o. I Government t i'rom the Bale other affair, U By Mr. Q Q. Yon ki Government, I A. I know Q. You kr A. What ( Q- You kn A. Becaus Q. Even ir A. No. I ,1 w"*h xMr. Whelt Q. You km matter ? A. I knew Q- The enq A. I think Q- You also the Messrs. Kin; A. I know ii rior Court Q. Which c£ A. Not that Q. You knov A. You tell 1 Q- I am pret A. Yes.. Q. You know King in that atla A. I know nr Superior Court. T another. Q. No. It was King's. Did you 1 this matter ? A. I know not Q, Since wher A. Four years Hon, C. Lan<^elifir Q-Wru, it toyonr pergonal knowlerlse' irom the Bale dos Chalenr. affair, I ^ > r^mTl "'' T': ' "" ''" ^'^^ «--'"-en . pi' other affair, to my knowledge. ' remember that he was ever mixed up with any Sy -Vr. Casgrain:— A. What do you „,ean l,y personally •> Q.YouknewitbecausHyousawhimact' A. Because he told me .o, and Mr. Wh.ian said . , a: S:V;r Sr S: rr;,T-"f -- '>"- -^^ M. career . -■M> Mr. Whelan's affair. ^ ""-'' '"' *'^'^' ^^ »-'^ore Mr. Pacaud had an "hing to do ^^^Q^You know that Mr. Paeaud acted as attorney With theoovernmentin the .ookwoo. A. I knew it from the enquiry. Q. The enquiry occurred in 1887, 1 think ' A. I tliink so. Q. Which case was settled ? a z r ;;:r c:::: :r :^^ ^-" --- - ^— • A. You tell me so. Vo. ::::^:^^Z r '°"^""^" ""'' ^^^^- ^'^"^ ^ Q. I am pretty well informed v °" Government affai-s than n.yself. A. Yes. Q. You know that Mr Pacvirl r j • A. It was about printing, the printing of a book of Ahb^ Casgrain, to the best of mv recollection. Mr. Demera had printed the book. I do not know il it was by advances or in any other way that that was made to him, but I could, if you wish, easily give you the details of the transaction. We have nothing to hide, and as ihe session is at hand, you can have every information before the House. Q. We will perhaps ask for their production ? A. If you are as successful as here. Q. You said that to your own personal knowledge, Mr. Pacaud made a great deal of money out of his paper? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Pacaud has large contracts with the Government, has he not? A. Yes, that is Belleau & Co. have. Q. The Electeur sends out a gr^at many copies every morning? A. I think it has a large circulation. Q. Could you give an estiin..ie of the nuEiber of copies ? A. I have never looked in their books, but I have understood from Mr. Pacaud that the number was from 14,001) to 15,000. _ Q. Is it not true that the printing of a newspaper in Quebec of this size and such tvre 18 very expennive? " A. I know nothing whatever about it. Q. You w.'re Mr. Pacaud's par*,ner in the ownership f.)i the Electeur f A. Yes, but as I drew no profits I did not concern myself much about the expenses. Q. There wore no profits at that time ? A. I do not know. I drew none and asked nothing about them. Q. How do you know that Mr. Pacaud was and is making a groat deal of monev bv his newspaper? ' ' '' A. I have hear.1 it said by him and by Mr. Belleau himself. I remember at one time then- telling n.e that their plant, which was worth between $40,000 and $50,000, was almost paid for. Q. Do you know whether Mr. Pacaud has drawn large profits ''rom his establishment ? A. I have never looked into the books, but I have always understood so. He told me many times that he was making money by h^o establishment. Q. And that he was buying plant? A. That he bought considerable mo winery, ceitaiuly some of the finest printing machinery in the city. Q. Is it not true that Mr. Pacaud derives no piofits or very little from his establishment but that all the profits go towards improvements, purchasing plant and making his establish- ment one of the best in Quebec ? A. I cannot answer as to that. Q. You do not know it ? A. I know Q. You df establishnient A. I told 3 making a grea Q. Will y, Mr. Pacaud oui A. What e Q- You sai du Peuple $3,0( A. ivir. Pac out the anionnf Q. Will yoi A. I think of that kind...h( Q. It was t( A. As well , Q. I think I affair he had onl A. Yes. Q. Then, th( A. The chec Q. The cheq A. Speaking the deposit was i Q. Then it w A. I think I Q. Now, can A. I re mem L not like to compli Montreal. Icanr Q. Was the fc A. To the bei Q. He was nc A. I do not r« Q. The report A. No, but to Lieutenant-Goveri with Mr. Robidouj Q You made A. Yes, Q. Mr. Robido A. No. Q. The report on the 2l8t ? A. Perhaps. I ( Q. That is cert I :| iiK: Hon. C. Lans^elier A. I know nothing personally of it ? Q. You do not then know nt nn ,.,i,„* e.t.bli,l„„e„»? ' '"'*' '""°"'" of "'««>• Mr. Pacml draw, from hi, Q- You said a moment asro thit ATr p„ ,, 7 1 i , du Peuple $3,000, and that out ^f th s ho'clrow 1 ., ^'"/'^^'^^ed to your credit at the Banque A. Mr. Pacaud. It was I wh , L tt J. '^'''^'''' ^' ^^^ ' who drew the cheque ? out the amount from the Sanque d t „ ! tT" "'1 ''I' '' ''' ^'- ^'^«''^"^'' '^"^ he drew ofthatkinr;.hetrmr;em:V":s'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^- advances or something li- It was to pay for hig advances ? A. As well as I can remember, yes. aflairhehadonl/advln''cedyou$8WH' ^''"'^"'''' "'''' P'*®^^^"^ ^^ '^e Baie des Chaleurs A. Yes. Q. Ihe cheque for $2,072 '/ unnK. the ' t'le Lieutei ;v .?, liovernor on the 23rd 1 fit' )uld iikr that there he no doubt about it. J ma -oiu.; to r.'ler yoi; M the Order in Council (Ihe witneisH take's conimunication >>l the Or.ier in Crunei!.) A. This was signed by Hia Honoar the Litiv.Euniu Governor on ihe 23rd April. Q. The r>i)ort wms madu on the 21,-i!t, snl.niitted to the council on tlie 21tt _ A, The 20t.'i. " The H'n;( ii ible Cornnnssioner of Public Works, in a n-pcit'orthe 2(ith Q. That was submitted on *he 2]>:i ? A o you romemhor whetlier in the )■ lerval, let us say between the 17th of A.iril and the day Mr. Robidoux arrived in town, yc: telegraphed to Mr. Robidoux to come to town that his presence wiis required ? ' A. That might well be. I know Mr. Ga..:eau was very anxious to see Mr. Robidoux and to have his opinion. On the other side, we had Mr. Thom who was constantly tellinir us that he was going to break off the negotiations : he said thai a delay had been granleS him by the former company, and that when this delay expired he would be exposed to other demands Irom them. Q. You, with tlie Hon. Mr. Duhamel and Mr. Pacaud telegraphed to Mr. Robidoux to return to town? * A. I do not remember that. It being one o'clock p. ra., the Commission adjourned till two o'clock. Hon. Mr. Justice Jette :— 2 P. M., 4th November 18i)l, The last time Mr. Webb was examined in reference to the request for the production of other papers, we found from his statement that three items had ilready been explained in his previous evidence. Another item is the $r,,000 which has be.3n declared to be entirely out ot this investigation, and three other items which we have ascertained from theexpinn ation given, are also entirely out of the investigation and provided for, so that we think the explanation given up to now is sufficient, and we will not al ow the production of the statement. E. E. WEBB, re-called, testified as follovr , ; By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— -Q. Have you any deposit slips wuxi y.ni . i ■ es, Sir. There is also this oh; gus that I have produced in my former evidence and there were hve asked for yesterday. 1 p.. . 'vce two deposit slips from Ernest Pacaud dated 2nd March, 1891, one being for $1,000 and t' . „ther being for «3,000, now filed and marked E. E. Webb 729 the one for $1,000, Exhibit Wn lOfi i x, ""^ ~~ «-ip Of MnEn..tr:^t.;f^:;;tr^^; 70^ Exhibit No. 189. A.so.,epo.t c epartn...„t account, marked Exhibit No 190 V, '. *'"'^'*" '" *''^" ^--^''''t of Lis savings the 9th Marcl., f„r «,,()(. ,0 the ere li oHu cun T' ^ ^^""' '"^ '"'^^^' E'"' «^ P^^'HuI, .1 ted Exhibit No. 192. AI.0 a cheque of Mr. ,J C L , 1, ,? '"^' ^l<■pnrtn,o,>t account, (il.d a No. 193. '"'««•' ''.V C. N. Annstron^' and liled as Exhibit Q. T;.ke thn deposit slip f„r $1,000, Ehibit No la« , . • account unds for thi. wer. paid, or 'wore Tilly a m": '?;,;',"' ^"^'^ "' •^■-* --- '•™™ what A. It IS impossihle to tr,.c.. where the Inn.ll ' outby thopaying.teller,sothatthe tnt^n^l^T ''''^' ''''' ""'' ''^P'^^''^ ^'"'l' '« '"ade cheque cashed perhaps for a larger a n , ,t ''V''f' /^^'•- ^''^"^'"1 wa.s getting a - cred.t, an i„ that way the tell^- ^oZ^C^:^^;^:^ T' ^ ^'ei.osi^l,0,)S tS ^«8. • "''"^'- ""'>'"' «'iP- That is Exhibit No. o "w."""'" ""•'• «"™ '■• "» ' ct «: ;™ f "I'l;"" '» i-i"* »..„.„„ „„<,;:: Q. What iiif.,nnaU„„ can vou i,i.-„ ,;. . ^"" '"""""•lo. Q- Do you knew what bank hills ' A. No. It ,J impossible to trace them in any way A. Would have deposited a cheoue Hp m.v v Q, What detail, ca„ vou eive ,, .„ ^^-^i'^f °f' > ,' ""'" '''» "S»at„r«. Q. What is the date ' ^^^,_A.,. .dated the ath M„e,„ .„. he o.„„„t ,e„e„he, the c.e,™.ta„ce. eonneoted Q. To what account is that credited '' A. The Savings Department account. bwl^uhr"'"'' "' '" "■" •'"^'' "'""' »" ^'-•' for «<», Lein, Exltihi, ».. l„, |t ; •780 E. E. Webb A, It is impossible to trace anything in connection with this deposit. Q. In whose handwriting is it ? A. I cannot say in whose handwriting it in. Q. What bills ? A. Ten fifties, equal to $500. 192 ?' ^^'^"^^'"^ "* ^° '^'° deposit slip of the 12th March, for $4,000, being Exhibit No. A. Tliis was a portion of the proceeds of a note for $500 already referred to in niv evidence, discounted March 12th, 189J, and dated March 10th, 1891, at 4 month's date due July 13th 1891, signed " Ernest Pacaud " and endoraed by H. Mercier, J. I. Tarte, CAP Pelletier and C. Langelier. $4,000 was placed to the credit of Mr. Pacaud's account in the Savings Department, and $865.20 to the credit of his ordinary accOunt. Q. What is the date of that note ? A. Dated 10th March. It is numbered 7025. Q. And is known as Exhibit 193? Witness nods assent. By Mr Hall:— Q Then the proceeds of tliis note you have just referred to, dated 10th March, parsed almost entirely through the Savings Bank account. A. Yes, $4,000 passed through the Savings Bank account. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— Q. Do you ever recollect having possession of a note of $6,000 made by Mr. Mercier at least made by Mr. Pacaud and endorsed by Mr. Mercier and Mr. Pacaud. There wL' a statement made to that effect by Mr. Pacaud at page 407 of the evidence, and you are asked to recall any circumstances about it, that you can? A. There may have been a note of that kmd placed on collection. 1 would not he certain as to the amount, but I think there was a note placed on collection and afterwards withdrawn ; but I think there was no discount of that amount with us. Q. By whom was it placed on collection ? A. By Mr. Pacaud. Q. Why placed on collection by him when he was the maker ? A. I cannot explain that. Q. It could not have been placed on collection then ? _ A. Oh ! yes, I think it was, although he was the maker. That incident itself lias impressed it on my mind that it was made by him. Q. Mr. Pacaud deposited this note of $6,000 due by him, to be collected from whom ? A. I could not say whom it was to be collected from. I know he was the maker. Q. What became of it afterwards ? A. It was afterwards withdrawn by him, I believe. By Mr. Hall: Q. If it was left for collection, I suppose it would be entered in the books of the bank > A. Yes, Q. Have you looked to see if it is there ? A. No, I thinl Q. Mr. Webb, Exhibit ITo. 98, a A. Yes, I beli( Pacaud, and afterw Q. Have you n A. The accour the due date of the Q. The due dal looked to see whe Mr. Barthe ? A. No, I have i Q. You read th A. It would b( trace of it. It is iir By Hon. Mr. Ju Q. What chequ( A. One with th( And further the THE HONOUR. By Hon. Mr. Jus Q. Did you e.xan: A. Yes. Q. Is it correct ? A. There is an an we do not agr Q. You did not re A. I have not reir possrasion of the stock Q. With that corr A. With that corr Q. With that exce A. It is a question "■gned the stock book, id has it yet. Q. And you do not A. Any way, I beli rapidly. Q. Is the amount n Hon. C. Lanf'elier 781 Pacaud, and afterwards withdrawTr "''"''' °" "°"^'=''°" '" our bank, on account of Mr. Q. Have you any mark on it ' the t dtHfZ'r ""'"^^^ '-' -"-•■- '•« ^ere. No. S020 ; a.o, the 3rd October ^..s ^:^';^"::::rij^-^--^xhiMtNo.i9o, and .ate .you Mr. Barthe ? '^"^ March, there was a draft or any cheque sent to A. No, I have not e.xamined. Q. You read the word " Barthe " nn ♦>• ♦ * A. It would be very h'kely on a chen L ttlT'J^'ulT *" ^' '"'^^ *° ^'- B'^rthe? trace of ,t. It is in.po«.ib,e to tmce these 2Ce3 '' '''^"' ^^ ''^""^ ^« ^^^e no By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :~ Q. What cheque do you refer to •> A. One with the word "Barthe " on it And further the deponent saith not. THE HONOURABLE CHARLES LANGELIER «. By Hon. Mr. JusHce Ba,y .- '^^"^'^^^ '^^^ ^PP-« -^ ^^eposes as follows Q. Did you examine the statement I prepared ' A. Yes. Q. Is it correct ? .e L^Z '• " •■"■»■"' "' «"• ^""'-1 .■ol..^ («(«) f,„ .he Port.., H„.e, „p„., „w„h Q- You did not reimburse him ? , A. I have not reimbursed him • bnf T n«vn. . u -u ^ Q. W, h hat correction, the statement which I make A. With that correction, the statement is correct. Q. With that exception of the Fortress Hotel stock ^ :i.nedt:'::rSX^^-;^;i:^^^;^ ^-^^ns^er myself bound, as I never '^ has it yet. '^^^'''P*' '* ™s M--- Pacaud who got the receipt and Q. And you do not intend to become a shareholder in the Fortress Hotel ■> ^^ .A^Any way.Ibehevethatitisofno consequence, the works^rer^ on very Q. Is the amount mentioned in the statement m_ 732 Hon. ( . Lansreh'er w\ X"y credit in my bank- and ^uj:u;Si::;i'; ''^ ''"""""" ^"" ^^^^ ^^^^^^'"^ *'^ °^^«^^^" '^'^ ^- ^^---^ A. Perfectly. _ Q. If I understand correctly, the cheque for two thousan, I and seventy-two lollars ^m given by you to meet disbursements which Mr. Pacaud had made for you i . .ious tr, the A. As I ha -e had occasion to say, it was Mr. Pacaud himself who kept an ace, all tlie advances which he v. ude, and ,is I had the fullest confidence in him I r.hd entirely upon the ex lanation he gave me. Q. !)■ I you tak ote of all f lie moneys he advanced to you ? A. Not at all ; the only note that I have, is my bank-book which I had and the stubs oi my cheques. Q. .Vhen he gave you cash, for-rxample, did you not take a note of it? A. There is only on, item of fifteen hundred dolUrs (>«-". ^^r the Archer junior, anclJ. Auger; s ptemher 18th H I ^' .^"^•'^"''- 'f- ^ Plamondon, J Lange her ; J.u.uary 9,h, 1880, .leeJan.t on o P ' ^'^j'*^''^'-" of E. Pac.ud and Charles :.'^nd. 1«8G, declaration of P. B. Ca«grainTnd Vvilfrid r*"" ""'' ^^'""'^ ^«""*^^ = March rafon of E Pacaud and Uhic Bartife ; DeCi e 1 ti'^'T ^ l''"'-"'"" ''''' ''''' ^'-'- li. ^^ 111 you state whether Mr. l^.c.ud•s Lcl w, ^'^•^''^^"'■«" ^f E. Pacaud." owne.sh.,., are correct to the he«t of vourknonSe''''^^^^^^^^^ *''^" '''""'Ses in the A. I have not ascertained it mys'elf hut I 1, Ivl ' Q. Now, I .ee that on the ninth of In a ' i IT"" ? ","'"^' ""' ^' ''^ — ^• l.ere was adecbration of ownership o! the i2;'t^^^'^ ZT ""'' ''^''"^-^'-^ (1««6). Laur.er ? ^ '"« ^'«''"" made by Mr. P. B. Casgrain .nd Wilfrid A. Y(8. Q. From that time the own.rshin r,itl,r> v/ , i , to Mes.sr. Casgrain an,l Laurier 1 ' ^'''■'''"" '"^^ ^°»« f''-" you and Mr. Pacaud A. ^'o. ^ J; H„„. „„„,., .,„e 8e„.,e„.o„ „»« „,„„ . ,„,„„„„, „, „„„^_^^. ^ .^ __^^ ^_^^_^,^ A. If you wi.»h me to e.vphiin it ' u-ili r^ pretended that Mr. Pacau.l .LaM^H,, ' Z „' .r^ ''"'T ^'''- ^'^^^'™''" "^ *h«* time could nmm,HUhe^7«c/«,.. so that it wouin/Tj^^^^^^^^ 'V''' ^'-'-'- ""'' '^at he Ehteur to supervise the accounts, to supervis,. the v ' ^"J ," '"""^ "^min-'liy on the to protect himself, r.ghtly or wronglv th , i m v' 'p' / ' '''''''''"'•• ^'•- f'"=^"d, on good terms- Mr. Pacaud placed Mr. L,c,er'. it ,!'"'". '^"''M- '^"^grain were not "". .r Q. Mr. U„gel,er, had you .„y i„„„„jg, „, ,^^ foll„wr„e ,eleB,.„ : April 17, 1891. The Honourable Pierre Garnead, Commissioner of Public Works, Quebec. » the intere... of the emorprke .„d of tlVftovT/oc! "^ "" "'"^ "■'?'>• PNudiciJ (Signed), J. E. KOBIDOCX A. It would embarm, m. a goxl deal to tell you to M* Jitr """ ""•"«" "" '" "* •» » -etter or a .„eg„„ .hieh y„„ «„. tse Hon <: ^ansrelier A. I may have telegraphed to Mr. Robidoux, but I doubt it, I believe rather that it was after Mr. Robidoux liad met Mr. Oanieau in Montreal. At that time Mi'. Robidoux cxpeoie.l to come to Q lobec; not having come, I sup{)ose that he sent that (U-spatcli tc inform .Mr. Garnean. As far as I am concerned, it was mt-rely to say to Mo. Gaincau whiit I have! stated hero this morning, that is, what happened on bo.ird the special car, when wo went to Now Yorlt. Q. You know that your brother, Mr. Fran9,.i8 Langelier, gave an opinion to corruborate Mr. CannonV opinion of the twenty-fourth of April ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Who asked Mr. Franpois Langelier to give that opinion ? A. I believe it was agreed upon between us in Council. Q. Are you sure ? A. Well, I am almost certain. It was because Mr.Garneau wished to have a legal opinion ; in Mr. Robidoux's absence he did not wish to take the responsibility of an opinion in an affair of such importance; and as IMr. Francois Langelier generally acted as counsel for the Government at Quebec,— the question was simply one of the interpretation to be given to the statutes. And thi.-i insaction. Q. Now, had you any knowledge of a letter, which your brother, Mr. Chrysostome Langelier, wrote to the Elendard, of Montreal, about the third of June, eighteen hundred and ninety-one (1891), respecting this Baie des Chaleurs matter? A.^ 1 saw it in the Elendard, I believe, or in another newspaper, if it was reproduced ; I saw it in the papeis. Q. At that time, there had already been question of the Baie des Chaleurs matter in that paper ? A. I do not know if it was before or afterwards, but I remember having seen something, an article, in the Eledeur, in reply to certain accusations which were made, I believe, by the Elendard. Q. The Courier du Canada had also spoken of it at the time ? A. Perhaps. Q. Did you have a great many meetings of the E.xecutive Council in connection with the passing of the Order m Council No. 237 ? A. Yes, many, because I remember that I had returned with Mr. Robidoux from our trip in the Southern States. We left Montreal the 13th of March, and I only returned to Quebec the evening of the 12th April. Some days afterwards Mr. Garnean told us of .Mr, Thom's letter and the interviews he had had with him. During our absence, practically, all these negotiations bad ceased between Mr.Garneau and Mr. Thom. The Order in Council was only signed ti)wards the end of April, so that the discussion of this affair must have liV-ted nearly two weeks. Q. Nearly two weeks ? A. Yes, nearly, it certainly lasted ten days. Q. Mr. Thom only came on the 16th the Order in Council was signed on the 23rd? A. Yes, but as we had Mr. Thom's proposition in our possession, we had discussed it for sometime, and later on we sent for Mi-. Thom to give some explanations on the subject, but while he was absent we studied this proposition in Council. ■Hon. C Langelier 737 Q. Will you look at Exhibit Vn Ai i ~ ' — - ' .-, »d ido „„. , „. „,:-;■» -. 'i-e .„,„,i„e»«o., orwMch Zspe^'i: rp?„rir <.^. Do you know whprp H,;= n. I • ^ "i't-ncu, . A. I do not know Tca^: ^oIlTe C .^f. "^^ ^'^^-^^ ^ A. I could not tell you. ^^""'^ ^O"'" Q- You seo that there is oiit^ horo -^ ♦ i , «s your l.tter ? ""'^ ""''^ ^^*«'^ ^"e 2.)th of April, which bear« the perhaps at the time of putting it into h- " • "'"" ^^^ ^'"'^ ^^^^^^^ into thp n. .• ""r;r" :?•'"" ''"--^^^^^^^^ y^. Will you look at this letter wHff which is I roduced as Exhib't Vn o/i , °" P'^P^'" marked " ExernhV^ n A. No. I do not kno^ die writing at ;.li t ""^ Q. You do not remember ? A. I certainly received none. Q. You do not know if Mr p^i .• i 4T 1 complete, it will •r38 Hon. C. Langeliir cost about $18,000. And since Mr. Caagrain wishes me to speak of the. house, I shall tell him this : It is not such a great piece of extravagance as has been asserted. Besides my emoluments as minister and my indemnity as a member of Parliament, I have my share as formerly in the firm of Montambault, Langelier & Langelier, and I received, on the 12th of the present month of October, from Mr. Montambault, our cashier, a statement of my share from the Ist of January, 1890, amounting to four thousand eight hundred and odd dollars. Since I have to give account of my affairs, I do so. I may add that I own a house on de Breboeuf street, that I have practised as a lawyer for 16 years, and this house is openly for sale as advertised in the newspapers. •■ Q. You paid $3,000, 1 think, for it ? A. Less than that, but I have put it in good order. The house is worth at leaat $3,000. Q. I am obliged to ask you to enter into some other details ? A. Enter my house if you like. Q. Not being a minister I could not pay for it. A. But you are on the point of being one. I will hand over my house and my portfolio to you. Q. You said that a statement waa given to you on the 4th October ? A. The 12th October. Q. Of your office accounts from the Ist January, 1890 ? A. Yes, up to the 12th October. Q. And your share was ? A. Four thousand eight hundred and twelve dollars, I think. Q. For a year? A. A year and some months. By Mr. BHque :— Q. When did you decide to build your house, Mr. Langelier ? A. About eighteen months ago, at least. Q. About the time when you spoke of it to Mr. Pacaud ? A. Certainly. Q. Warn It at that time Mr. Pacaud promised to assist you, if you needed assistance ? A. Yes, certainly, Mr. Pacaud was one of those who most strongly urged rae to begin building. Q. You have produce^l a statement of five thousand and a few hundred dollars which Mr. Pacaud advanced to you ? A. Yes. Q. This sum was advanced at different times ? A. At different times. Q. With your knowledge of Mr. Pacaud's means, the money he matle by tho Eledeur, were thes<> sums thus advanced of a nature to cause su.spicion in your mind as to their origin ? A. Not at all, because I knew perfectly well that, apurt from the large amount be nnule by the firm of BoUeau & Co., Mr. Pacaud could easily raise the money at the bank. I knew that his credit was good here, at the Banque du Peuple and the Union Bank. ■ Q. Did ; number of c' A. Yes, Q. Hen: A. Yes, ] ement. He Q. That : A. Yes. netted him a Q. At the know or had sum whatever A. Not at receive in the Q- About , Mr. Mercier ? Messrs Ha Mr. Casgra If this lette examine or at li Mr. Beique I will not ej Mr. Casgrni It waa not d- how it disappear Mr. Beique : I suppose I r ed that letter. By Hon. Mr. Q. You do no Mr. BHque:- No. I am aski Mercier on the 30t Hon. Mr. JusU We will permi T'/w! WitneiB.— Yes, Sir, I knei 739 Q. That is to your peL^XZfeZT'^'- '" ^'"'^^'^«^- Mr. Casgrain :— If this letter is not now in tho r.^ ^^/A ^^-gwe .- ""'"' ^ ^° "ot think that we ought to...' ::::::::r""""-'''°------. % ITon. JJfr. /Maifce Baby .-_ -How. ilfr. /M««ce Jettg .•_ We will permit a general question. Yes, Sir, I knew of it. 740 Hon. C. Langdier Q. Did you, at that time, take some steps with Mr. Pacaud towards the Hon. Senator Telletier ? A. Yes, I went with Mr. Pacaud... Mr. Pacand communicated to me that part of Mr. Mercier's letter in which he aks for a certain sum of money. He asked me to accompany him to Senator Pelletier's house, Mr. Pelletier having still in his po8se8!pa,iy ? A. i-jominf Q. But in 1 A. No, Sir, Q. You Wo A. Yes, Kir Q. But apa A. M. Thorn A. No, I declare under oath that r ~ ~~ perhaps why ram so ill-i„,-„r,ned. l^JZ Z'LrV'"' '^'"'''''^ ^" ^-«''«' ^^at is W,.t .a well known that scandals are di o e d '^^^ P'^'^^^^^P^' ^"^ which hang fire. Ulsco^ered every day m the Cotcrrier du Canaxhil>w .1 pany and Mr. Hogan, as covering miles s^ 'liXf* "^^^ ^^ ^- ^^'-en yourCom- A. Sixty to eighty ^ ^'^^^ '■ A. t;;tf x?:,r '" '- ^•" «- »—' «'■ -„,. , Q. On the 5th June you wrote t,. ith r. Exhibit No, 61. ..king for a payment ac ;,i li,';"?'''."' '^'P^^''^ ^-^ ^ «°Py of your letter, A. Yes, Sir. ^ ' ^'^°' ''"- '" ^^e terms of the letter, of $70,0 )() ? d-'«^he^l!5lhVuiri"80rberng^ you by the answer of Mr. Garneau of A. Yes, oil. Q. Did you, in this contract with Mr R, r„, 1 , • paid in the manner stated in those letters a mr o'flb " th,s_arHiti„nal sum of .170,000 to be to receive ? ^'^' '' P" ^ of the consideration which Mr. Hogan was A. It is inchided in his contract, Sir Q, Have you the transfers of shares wh,Vh „ A. Yea, Si r. ^'^' ^^'""^ yo" ^^re desired to prochice ? Q. These correspond with the list -mrl fii„ 1 * A. Yes, Sir. '''' '^"^ '"^^ '''^''■^ ^'ven by you in your evidence before ? Q. Were they executed at the dates that appear ' A. r believe so. Thev mav nof hn,.., k Q. on the 23rd April were y^ i 'J iessirortr'' 'f l""'' ^''' °-""^-'' ^ ^hink. ?'0»'Pany ? ^ ' '" f'ossession of the control of tlie franchises of the old A. i-^ominally, yes, Sir. Q. But in law ? A. No, Sir. Q. You were, so far oa your business was concerned ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. But apart from your option? ■ = the shareholders. Q. How much '! ■ A. In all, $;i2,0tX). Q. On that day ? A. On tiittt day ; that is, there is cash and notes." Q. The balance had been paid on the dates mentioned in your previous evidence? A. Yea. Sir. t Q. Was any statement made to you, Mr. Thom, by any person as to any money whieh Mr. Macdonald e.xpected to allow Mr Pacaud ? A. Only wiiat Mr. Macdonali'. told me. He intimated that Mr. Pacaud would have to be paid. Q. Was any sum of $50.0«K) numtioned to you .' A. I would not Hke to be positive about that. He left me under the impression that Mr. Pacaud wa« to be paid any way. I heard once $50,000, and then again $75,000. Q. Previous to April ? A. Oh ! yes, Sir, six months or eight months previous to that By }Tr. Beique : ~ Q. You have been asked if the benefit arising from your letter of the 5th June, and the answer of the 16th June, had been transferred to Mr. Hogan in virtue of the contract entered into with him for that part of the road extending from the sixtieth to the eightieth mile, and you stated yes ? A. It is mentioned in the contract. Q. Now, was he aware at the time that that required further legislation ? Was he made aware of the circumstance ? A. I do not know, I am sure. He saw the letter ; in fact, it is in the possession of his Bollicitors, now. And further deponent saith not. JOHN C. aged 45, being By Hon. A Q. Have y A. I produ llth'JuIy to th. Q. Whose f A. Ernest I Q. Refer to small balance w A. Yes, a bi of that balance. Q. Have yo A. I was no have them. Q. You maj A. There an not been present Q. In favor ( A. I cannot and we have not I produce a c as Exhibit No. made out by Mr. Deposit slip i I produce alsi $2000. That was; By Mr. Hall: Q. Did you lo Nos. 198 and 199 ? A. It is quite Q. These are 1 A. Yes. We c is ft bordereau mad Q. Did you Ion and 2.3rd July ? A. They would Q. Would you A. No, not of t] Q. Has Mr. Pa( A. Only a savir Q- Mr. More, w J C. More 748- By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— Q. Have you any accounts to produce '> Q. Whose account ? A. Ernest Pacaud's. Q. Refer to account, Exhibit Wn on „„ j * ^ •^. . small balance with which yoril^H lot ?'' ''''V^' ^^meMih the exception of a A. Yes, a balance of $,[2 74 That t^ ^-T-v' ^""^ ""'"^ ^^'^^ '' «'o«e8? of that balance. I now ^l^t.^^S N^m^ ''' '' ^""^''^ ^^^^ ^'^^ "^P"- Q. Have you anything else ? ^^• bave'lhe'r "°' '^"^' "^°" '° ^^^^^^ '^^ vouchers in connection wi.h the account, but I Q. You may as well produce them ? not tt Jpr„rjrxr:-.rerors"'' °" °' ""■* " "■""-"^"■^ -^ ^ Q. In favor of whom ? made out by Mr. Pacaiid, for «2 0(K) U^ZTj ■ •! "* ' "*"'' '"'' '*"<«i "'!< July. Dep^i. .lip i, „,e., „ Exhm. So Ms! "" ' """ "'" ""™ '«*■■ I produce also a deposit slin dated oo,,,] Tmi, • nf ,, % 3/r. /TaW.- - ' ' Nc.'isSSjf'" '""■""'"•" "-"»■"■ »- 1ePo.i.ed with .,.e,e ,„ Exhibit A. It is quite impossible to trace that. Q. These are large bills, $100 ? is a bo^derL mldrlrbyZ'teTirln?^^^^^ ''i" 'T'^'' *° ''^'' '^'^- There Q. Did you look at the slips J u "eT tt I 'r^^ \^^ ''°' *'^' '^^"'^^ *^^'"- and 23rd July ? ^^"^^ '^"* '° *^« o^^er banks on the dates, the 12th July A. They would be in the hands of the other banks A rTt'T.r?"" '"' memorandum of them yourself ? A. Wo, not of the denominations at all A OnTv^sav^'n't "°''" '^"""* ^" '^^ ^-^'-"'« Bank ? A. Only a savmgs banks account Q. M,. M.r, wi„ you ,„„. „ .he che,„, „„. h.„« to yoo, d.ted „o„.„.,, ,„„ 1 fl w , i'Ml .J ^'■iixmimiiimm^iammmkii IhV. 744 D. A. Ross 11th, 1891, signed by 0. N. Armstrong to the order of Mr. Ernest Pacaud, and attached to Exhibit No. 89-8, and state if that cheque was paid through your bank here, at Quebec ? A. This cheque was received from Mr. Pacaud in payment oi a bill which we held for collection from Montrcul. I think it was drawn by C. N. Armstrong on Mr. Pacaud. Q. Look at the bill which is part of Exhibit No. 89-8 and state if that is the bill? A. There is no mark on this bill to show that it passed through our bank. It was a bill apparently held for collection in our bank, drawn by C. N. Armstrong on Ernest Pacaud, which he accepted, and when the bill became due, this cheque was handed in with the commission of | % which would be $2.50 added to it. This cheque was sent to Montreal and was protested for non-payment there, and it came back to our hands ; and Mr. Pacaud, I believe, paid it in cash. There was no cht'(iuo drawn by him on us to pay it ; he therefore paid it in cash. Q. What date ? A. I cannot give you the date without enquiry. ' Q. About what date ? A. It would be a day or two. after the protest of the bill — between the 20th and 25th July. I cannot speak positively about that. Q. Will you just look again at this draft, which is part of Exhibit No. 89-8, a draft by C. N. Armstrong on Mr. Pacaud at Quebec, and state if that is the (draft you had at your bank or if that draft ever was in your bank ? A. I can state pretty positively that this never passed through our books, because we always number our bills, and if this passed through our books it would he numbered. And further deponent saith not. DAVID A. ROSS, of the (Mty of Quebec, advocate and President of the Executive Council, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say : By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — It has been suggested by Mr. Beique that it might be desirable to give you an opportu- nity of making a statement, if you so wish. The witness : — , I can state in a few words all that I know about this matter. Of course I am President of the Executive Council and sign the Orders in Council. What I recollect is that there wcro several interviews between Mr. Garneau and Mr. Thorn, and I was present at some of these interviews, and after several had been held, Mr. Thom told me that there were so many difficulties surrounding the matter that he would wash his hands of the whole thing and return to Montreal. A few days after Mr. Garneau said that he was disposed to enter in negotiations, because he was getting as security bonds to the extent of $500,000 of this road and he thought it would go through. A proposition was made to the Council by Mr. Thon., and an Order in Council was drawn up embodying almost, or I may say, completely, the whole of this proposition. That is all I know about the matter. I will, if it is necessary for me, state that I never saw Mr. Pacaud'a face at all, nor heard that he had anything to do ■&o«. /. Shehyn ?45 Ottawa that I tir«t loun.l out that Mi rJ" " '^'''P? '"'^°^"' °^ '^'^ •^"^"iO' made at matter and had me.ved a large sum of lev'^,r^^ T'' ^"^ "'" ""^^^ '" '^^i» THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH SHEHYW r,\ n-, r^ , b.i„. ,,u,y .„„,„ „p„,, ,,e H,,,, k™SS;:Co»i;'*;;''" '''"'"^^ fiy Honourable Mr. Justice Jette :— Q. You are the Provincial Trensurer ? R. Yes, Your Honour. Q. I understand that you were absent nhnnt ♦!, .■ Chaleurs matter ? ^^°"* *^^ ^'""^ «* ^he settlement of the Baie des A. Yes, Your Honour. transtt?oL^;;i:h'ttrp;^^^^^ t:;tnlhr r""™""^ ^^^^^^ '-' ' ^-' -> ^--'-^^ -^ the the Baie des Chaleurs Rrilwry I™ olrn^^^^^^^^ T' ''^ "''"• -"P-y respecting learned that such a transactio"^ had tke place and what w"'' f." "" '™'". "^""'P^ ^^-^^ ^ Senate intended to adopt respecting the Ltter ' ' Proceedings which the A r Yo" h" °' '': 7"^"'"" " ^'^"'^'"'^"^ ^-^^^ ^™ -- - E-ope •/ .ay have;I?m^hr^S^;r:r^S tl^^ ^r^'^^^ the Prime Min.ter Before lPnvi,„r }.o^ , " •''^'-en place I do not remember that. ^!. was thnt all you had to do with the matter ? A. That was all I had to do with the matter Q. You did not know that Mr. Pacaud had any interest in the matter? A. No, Your Honour, I was not aware of that Q. Did you see Mr. Pacaud on the cars on your way to New York ? r.p 'tiLlLtie^rSurmi;:!"" —''- -^^ ^^™ -^ ^'^^^ M. Armstrong Q. All that you know, thuefore. was the proposal contained in Mr. Laflamme's letter ? - Te^^-t^t^'W^^.f," lid John Murray iiii A. Yes. Q. Respecting Mr. Cooper's proposal and the reply that was given it ? A. Yes, that is all. By Mr. Casgrain :— Q. While you were in Europe, no one couiinunicated to you the fact that letterw of credit for the sum 01*170,000 had been issued to pay Armstrong's claim or to carry o t the proposal of the Cooper syndicate ? A. I had no communication from the Treasurer -specting the letters I'f credit in the Bale des Chaleurs matter. No report of this transact . n was sent to me in Europe. I had no news of this transaction. Q. Were you not informed that these lelterrt of credit liad been issued ? A. No. Q. Or that the Order in Council had been pn ed ? A. Nor that the Order in Council had been passed. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— Q. When you say the Treasurer, do you mean the interim Treasurer, the person who replaced you ? A. Yes. I had no conuuunication whatever either with the Assistant Treasurer or with V.\e interim Treasurer respecting the Bale des Chaleurs i natter. And further the deponent saith not. JOHN MUERAY, of the City of Quebec, Manager of the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say : By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. You have received a summons to produce a number of telegrams ? A. Yes, Sir, I got a subpoena a little before 3 o'clock, and I went down to the office imme- diately and examined the file of messages, and found that the only messages that we have on hand aie from the Ist May to date. I have only been here a month myself, and I find the ciistom has been to destroy telegrams every month— that is to say, for instance, at the end of one month to destroy the previous month's business, so the company only keep six months, busines-i on hand, and so far as the copies of telegra •< I am asked' to pro uce, we have not got them, so far as I know of. Q. You have from the 1st May ? A. Oh. yes, I have from the 1st May. I think they were required for March and April too. By Mr. Hall :~ Q. Mr. Murray, you received an order the other day not to destroy messages ? A. I understood the order we got the other day was to ask us not to give copies to certain individuals named, and that, of course, we have carried out. Hy Hon. Mr. Q' Do you m order ? A. I may say nianagur since tin certain extent, . Q. When you A. Ye8. Q. Have any 1 A. Not that I Q. Fin.i out if Further exami 0. DESMARA Assembly, being du [Examined upoi By Mr. BHque : Q- Mr. Desmara contrai 'ors for the c A. Vcs, Sir, frr,n MacFarlaiie's counsc Q. Had you occi actively in the case ? A. Yes, I looked j Chaleurs Railway Co I sand dollars, about. Q. Do you know matter ? A. I have known Q. Had you occa.- he had with the old di andRobir,aille ? A. Several times. Q. In any of those thousand dollars, whic "i '■ *"pay ? A. Yes, if the Con I in a few words The Commission ( Q. Had you any 0( with the Prime Ministe O. De.smarain liy Hon. Mr. 'usHce Davidson :~ *l Do you inemi to say that vou Imu,, h^.* order/ ^«" »'-" destroyed messagen since you received that A. I may say, so far as I am conoernp,? T i- manager since the 1st October, and the n ^LemZ^'Z^ ''«'"' ''■ ^ ^^'^ ^een the certamrxtent, ■ far as that depart ntl ?„nT , '^" ""^''^ '' '^ «^"'<^d on to a Q. When you received that « JT "°"°«'^"«^*1- ^^-'thout my knowledge. A. Ye«. '^ y^'" ^'ve any instructions to your clerks ? Q. Have any been destroyed oe ' A. Not that I know, I haven't ri,( Mmo f • Q. Fi,„: out if any ;ere deslov ^^ "r"'"^*'^^ ""« "^'^"er. (&».„„( .,„„ „. ^^, application oj Ut. BHgu,.) ' ' By Mr. BMque :— Q. Mr. Desmarais, you acted, I believe for Afr \x r- , M.cF.rW.fS,;S"" °°'' '"^■'«"»'' ■«»»• "P •» ">e »<, of J.„„„, ,.., ^ ,„ „^ «i4"1h'::::r"" '"P™«-l'««.e«--ou .„o. M. ,„,„ .. M.C..™,., „„„ „,„ ,„„,„„, „ , „„___^^ ^_^ ^__. A. I have known him for about three years. Q. Had you occiwion to sr)pn,k in w- r^u t ■., . he had with the old directorsTt Ba^ cts ihaltt r'f "^'"^'"'^ "'^»""'''^^-- ^^^-h I and Robir,aille ? ''*'" Chaleurs Railway Company, Messrs. Riopel A. Several times. '» ■ -P«y ? ■ " "P'"'"" or to me,l claim, which he m.uld I » .t/::'!*!.'"'""""'"""' "«' ^^ O"""" 'o •>'»- "o, I might ..p,.i„ .ho ,„o..io„ iij! IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) k A {./ ^ .^ '^ A &". 1.0 I.I 11.25 III UP 2.5 III 2.2 2.0 U IJ.6 — A" rij.uiL^ci|jiiiLi Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. I4S80 (716)872-4503 •1>^ .<\ 5V >v\ ^ ,,v ,.^ v\^< l/u b 748 O Desmarais A. Yes. If the Commission will allow me, I will explain in a few words how I ca:ne to be mixed up with that. Being Mr. MacFarlane's counsel, I conducted the taking of the evidence at Quebec against the company ; for several daye I met Mr. Macdonald who knew thatj was Mr. MacFarlant-'s counsel, and l,e kept me posted. He insisted that we should not go on with the evidence, as it might hurt his negotiation. He kept me nosted as to all he was doing and I knew what was gr ing on. • The day when the railway resolutions were introduced into the House, I do not know whether it was by acciJent or whether I had been sent for to the Speaker's room. I found Mr. MacdouMld there. He showed me the railway resolution?, telling me that there was a mistake, that he wished to see Mr. Mercier. We sent for Mr. Mercier's and in a few minutes Mr. Mercier came in. He told Mr. Mercier that there wa« an error in the resolutions ; from what I remember there were two points that did not satisfy him, the number of miles and the fact that former subsidies were not mentioned. Mr. Mercier admitted that there wis an error of six hundred to eight Imndred miles, but it was a clerical error which he would have corrected, and he took a note on the resolutions. As to the other, he added • tl.is u only additional, the other statutes are not repealed, they exist in their entirety. A few wonis were added and Mr. Mercier returned. I mention this discussion with Mr. MacDonahl so that It may be understood how it came about. I mentioned to him the figure of the subsidies of the two previous statutes. inch.,iir. the doubhng up, including the $280,000 with the 800,000 convertible acres and the *J«0(» for the Cascapedmc bridge. I established that the figures would reach $.=500 000 B appenred to be satisfied. He said : " I will see Mr. Irvine in any case." The next div f again saw him at the St. Louis Hotel ; he told me that he had seen Mr. Irvine, and 'ti,at he could not come to an understanding with Riopel : that he had gone up to $275,000 to cover all the debts an>i that he would not go further ; however, he left the matter in Mr Ifviue's hands, "^nd thai If Mr. Riopel changed his mind and would agree to his conditions, that he tTe mailer ""^ ^""^ ^J^at he would return, that otherwise he would not continue Q. Mr. Pacaud mentioned that the sum of two hundred and thirty dollars was paid to you duruig the course of last summer. Will you state whether that had anything to do with the Baie des Chaleurs matter ? ■> t. A. It had no connection, either directly orindirectly, with it. Ifyou wish to know under what circumstances, I will tell you. It is rather a private detail. Last winter, at the time o' the Federal elections, having met Mr. Pacaud in Montreal, we spoke of the organization and he said that we should take a very active part in that struggle. I remarked to him that we were well disposed to do everythinglthat was possible, but that as lar as I waa concerned, since I have been an advocate for the past fifteen years, I have lost hundreds of dollars going about like that from right to left, and I always paid my own exp<.nse8, that I had just come out of an expensive election, that I was prepared to work in my own vicinity but that when it was necessary for me to leave home, that the expenses would perhaps prevent me. Then he told me: 'Take my word for it, I undertake to provide fir Z expenses up to the sum of three hundred dollars. Do not stint yourself up to $300 I make It my own personal matter, as a subscription." I again saw Mr. Pacaud at Quebec, and I mentioned to h,m the fact, and when I met him in the month of July, I settled the matter, He said to me: " I am printing a pamphlet for you-it wa« a speech-the price for the printing is seventy dollars, I will give you a cheque for the balance. He sent me a cheque tor the balance. There waa no question of the Baie des Chaleurs matter. I was not aware at the time of the part which Mr. Pacaud may have taken in it, as I had ceased being Mr, MacFarlane's cou up in the transact was settled. I cam paid my costs, wh EDWIir POP Company, being di By Hon. Mr. J Q. You have b A. We have nc been destroyed. Q. When were A. The month < the month of April Q. You. receivec that order y A. None since t Q. All the raessi A. All have bee: Q. What is the ] A. Just as soon i months or about six Q. These are wit A. April is up or Q. Well, you rec A. We are not p) destroy tbem. Q. You are sure i A. I am quite su: ' Q. You have non A. Not of these n Q. Well did you 1 A. The order is gi Q. Have you lool there or not? You hac Further examinat 1891. Edwin Pope MacFarlane's counsel at thn ♦;.«„ e.^. ' ~ — - wa8 8ettle.,LIcametoQuebecJ.owever,tosre ?E()rH n^^'' "^'^ ^^•^'^"" '"^tter paid my conts, which are not yet paid. ^'^^' '° ^"^""^i' a"«wed of my being And luither the deponent saith not. 5i/ Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .— ' Q. When were they destroyed ? Q. Yon received an order Mr p >„ > J '"ontn. that order . "^'^^' ^^'- ^^P'^ "^ Have you destroyed any messages since you got A. None since then. •> & » months or about six months. "'"" ^""^ ""^ "^" Purpose, when they are six Q. These are within the six months •> A. Apnl IS up on the Slst October. d«r„; ,b,m. '™ ""J'— -"On » we „e .hrough .i,h ,h.„ „ «« ««« .„, „»„.„. 750 Hon. J. E. Robidoux THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH EMERY ROBIDOUX, Attorney General of the Province of Quebec, having been duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say ( The WUnesa was examined at his residence, as ovdng to illness be was unable to appear in Court.) By Hon Mr, Justice Jetti : — Q. Mr. Robidoux, you had knowledge of thesettlementofthe Baie des Chaleurs Railway matter with the Thorn syndicate, had you not? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. The papers respecting the contract or understanding which was had between the Government and that new syndicate were submitted to you? A. Not all; I was not here when the Order in Council was passed ; I came only after the passing of the Order in Council ; I was detained by sickness at Montreal. Q. Before the passing of the Order in Council, had you knowledge of the proposal that had been made by Mr. Thom ? A. Yes, I had knowledge of it on two occasions. The first was on the journey from Montreal to New York, on the twelfth ot March. I believe, when Mr. Mercier was leaving for Europe. There were on the train the Honourable Mr. Mercier, the Honourable Mr. Shehyn, the Honourable Mr. Langelier and myself. During the trip; from Montreal to New \ ork, Mr. Mercier submitted to us a letter, written by Mr. Laflamme, and containing a proposal from Mr. Thom and others to complete the part of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, already commenced. A letter was dictated by l^' Mercier in reply to that letter from Mr, Laflamme. That letter, I believe, has alrea °,n produced before the Commission. This Baie des Chaleurs matter afterwards cams. > . again in New York, when I was introduced to Mr. Thom, who represented the syndicate which had proposed to continu-^ and complete the road. Q. That was after Mr. Mercier had left ? A. That was after Mr. Marcier had left. I was then with the Honourable Mr. Langelier. Q. Your colleague ? A. My colleague. We 'lad a conversation of a few minutes only with Mr. Thom. Mr, Thom asked us if he might hope, he and his syndicate, to obtain the subsidy voted at the last session to continue and complete the Baie des Chaleurs Railway. We told him that the Government wished to have the road continued and completed, and that as soon as ne oflTered security to the Government that the road would be continued and finished, we would be very willing to grant to his syndicate the subsidies in question. Mr. Thom asked me then what kind of security the Government wanted. I said to Mr. Thom : " You know what security is : we want to be secured against all possible events and assured that the road will really be completed." After that interview at New York, I left with Mr. Langelier and others for a trip through the United States, and we were absent for a month. When I returned to Montreal, I believe it was about the twelfth of April, I was not well, and I waa detained at home, in bed until I believe the twenty-flfth of April ; I am not sure of the date, but in short it was about that date. Q. Before t colleagues respj A. Yes; m aflair, when I w Q. Was the tract from a ma ings ? A. No. Th . Merely a A. As an ad Q. So as to g A. Yes ; he i not in very good to understand th; recollection of th Q. Now, I ur had thought? A. I was not Q. Then, was Garneau, about tl A. Yef. Iren found me in bed ; I could not go to ( Q. That tslegi from what you th( Mr. Garneau, on j A. What I int gelior would give h was the Honourabl county, that that ri Q. And it -^as A. It was with Q. Now, later ( A. I came to Q Q. You then hi A. I had inter seventh, I had a rel I believe. I was well or three days, perha Mr. Ross during the Q. Did not Mr. to the regularity of been prepared ? ffon. J. E. Robidoux Q. Before the twenty-fifth of Anrii a\a^. v. ~ ' Q. Waa the conversation you had with Mr rp,„ tract from a material point of view, or was if wifh"'"" T^^u '^' ^^'^^'^^^^ of the con- i°g8 1 ' ""*" '' ^"^ ^^^P'^ct to the regularity of the proceed- ^' Midair:; " '""""" ^ *° ^'^ ^^^^^^^^-^^ ^* ^^^^ — *• • JHerely as an administrative act ? A. As an administrative act. A yZ ^eHT '"""" " ' "^'"'^^ «^^- Government? to understand that I hoped I would be Se to .on, / n u ^"''"''« ' ' ^'^^^ M'"- Garneau recollection of the interview. '° '°''^' ^'^ Q"«^«° «»^o«ly ; at least, that L my Q. Now, I understand that p few davs i«fo, ., had thought ? '"'' "^y« ^«*^' y«" were unable to come to Quebec as you A. I was not able to come to Quebec. ^- That telegram, if I remember rightly Stat pH fw from what you then knew of it, and that Mrcha? La' ,ier Va"'™!? *'^ ^^^^^^'^''^^ Mr. Garneau, on your behalf, everything about it?" ^°^''''' ^'^^ authorized to state to. ^^p^i^^^Z^Jti^S^ - -- Mr. Chas. W was the Honourable Mr. Mercier's wish n th?n2,- V ^'"''^ ^'"^ = '^'^t ^«' that it county, that that railway should be continued a J com^^^^^^^^^^ T';" "^^ ^"'^^^«' ^^ ^^^^ Q. And it .as with that puipose that yl t:!^:: I '''' ' ''''' ' '^^ ^-• A. It was with that purpose that I mentioned Mr. Langelier's name Q. You then had interviews with Mr. Garneau -> rememoer. ^"^^rS:;^^Z^::^J,^^^ -^n. ^^om the twenty- Ibelieve. I was well. I then had a rlrTe lioh . % . ' '^°'P*^°'^ °^°"« «' two days or three days, perhaps for more.ha; tZorTh e dayra'nd";"" '"'' ^* "^ """-■ ^^^w^' Mr. Itoss during the time I was in bed, here in Quebec '"'" '""^ ^'^ '^'^^"«^" «"^ -^«ofrz^^^:;-tj-^^^^ been prepared ? ^^" ^"^^^ or of the documents Whicli had 152 Hon. J. E. Robidoux A. No. Mr. Garneau came to my house ; I was in bed that day ; and }ie told me that the Lieutenant Governor vvi.^htd to know what was the position of the Government at that time with respect to Mr. Thorn and his syndicate. I was then sufiering a good deal • I said to Mr. Garneau that I could not at the time do that woik, however I sent for my secretary that day or the next day, J believe, to whom I dictated an opinion ; but I told Mr Gelinas that in the condition in which I was That was the basi^ of my opinion, but that I did not wish that opinion to be given to the Lieutenant G.Aeruor in its then shape as it had been dietated when I was feverish and suffering ; although I was certain that the matter of It was correct, I wanted to put it with a better shape. Q. Was there not some difference of opinion between you and Mr. Machin as to the effect of the Order in Council respecting the conversion of the subsidy which the statute declared to be in lands and which you thought, under the Order in Council, could be naid in money ? *^ A. Well, I read that in Mr. Machin's deposition and I scarcely remember that interview In any case, the opinion of Mr. Machin, the Assistant Provincial Treasurer, was of no importance as far as I was concerned, when it was necessary to decide a question of law Q. At that time were the difficulties which presented themselves or the questions upon which your opinion was a^ked as to the carrying out of the arrangement which had been made by the acceptance of Mr. Thom's pr(»posal ? A. Yes. I understood that Mr. Garneau wished to have my opinion upon the position of the Government with respect to Mr. Thom, and he had also asked me to give l.im mv opinion upon the value of the transaction itself. Q. The value in a business point of view or in a legal point of view ? A. From a business point of view. Q. Now, to revert to the first interview, when you met Mr. Thom in New York did you at the same time meet Mr. Pacaud at the hotel ? ' A. I believe it was Mr. Pacaud who introduced Mr. Thom to us. Q. Had you seen Mr. Pacaud before in the cars on the journey ? A. Yes. Q. He made the journey at the same time as you did? A. He made the journey at the same time as we did. He was not in our cars; he came in, but he was not travelling in our cars. I think Mrs. Pacaud waa invited into our cars. I think she remained in it sometime, but not very long. Q. Was there, during the journey, any question, between you and Mr. Pacaud, of the Thom syndicate and the proposal which ha 1 been made ? A.. Well, in New York. Q. Curing the journey, I mean ? " A. No. Q. He did not speak to you about it during the journey ? A. No. Q. What did Mr. Pacaud say upon the matter at New York ? A. Well, at New York, he told us that iie had just introduced Mr. Thom to us, and that the former wished to take up the Baie des Chaleurs matter. Q. Was that all that was said between you ; he introduced Mr. Thom to you ? A. He introduced Mir. Thom to us. Q. Was Mr. Armstrong on board the cars also, during that journey. A. I did not see Mr. Armstrong on the cars. Q. Hed A. Well, Q. Had ; A. I mot Q. Did v, A. No. ' Q. After between the G by Mr. Pacan( carrying out c in the matter ; A. Yes, I Q. Did yoi A. Ibelie\ going to finish something like Q- W,,s th» A. No, it w Q- Then he A. Yes. Q- Waa it f, A. Mr. Tho asked to withdia believe, once, pe: leui-8 matter ? I cessfully, which ■ something like tl Q. Had you j of the letters of c A. Yes, the: Q. So as to ge A. I believe tl nothing to say, I i Q- VVill you tfl whether you exam A. Yes, they a Q- Those initic A. Yes. Q- When you 1 advantageous natur A. Ah ! No, he i Province, and if you about anything else Q. After the Ore tbe delays which Mr Bon. J. E. Robiduux ! !■ Q- He did not go to \pw v,,..i- •.^ A. Well M,. A . ^^^^ ®'"ier ? Q. After that, after the pasainir „f ^u „ carrying out of the nejrotSn 9 J^ ' "egotintions which had hi. '"'^ "'^P* '^ken A. No, i, „a, X^ ' **' '" <=»""«" »". P«.e^ ^^^ "« tf'eT ""^ ' - B-e de« Cha- something like that. ^^^"^ *^« -'^"er, if you do net comTS an enj ^H" :"• o^th?,err/^rd^,r----t^^edra,tingofthe.^^^^^^ '' A. Yes. they were..ro.,ghtformeto . . '' "^^ *^^ P-Paration Q- ^^o . to get your .pinL Jto irL™ T '''' '''' ^'^ ' ^ «^c. i„ hed. ^^' ^'^^y 'i'^« my initials. ' '""^ 'oP- »« really yours ' ^ Q. After thVo rrc^ l',::™"' '"^ i"'™.- »f .hePro" of °°' '^'^ "« - the delays which Mr rll ^ P'^"^''' '^iJ Mr. Pacaud en t 764 Hon J. E. Robidoux A. Well, exactly as I have just said, not apart from the circumstances that I have just mentioned. Q. Then, he had not spoken to you before the Ordor-in-Council was passed? A. No, excej)t in New York. I did not see him afterwards, .1 did not again see him after I had seen him in New York, until the twenty-fifth of April. I say the twenty-fifth it may have been the twenty-sixth. Q. Now, after the issue of the letters of credit, did you concern yourself at any time about the negotiation or the discount of that letter of credit or of those letters of credit ? A. This is what occurred ; I had returned to Montreal ; I was again at hume sick ; it was towards the iniddleof May. I believe Mr. Pacaud came toseeme.andafti-rthe upual exchange ofcivilities, I aakcd him what brought him to Montreal. He said: "Icamehere to try and get a note discounted for Armstrung.a note secured by a cheque signed by ChrysostdmeLangelier, commif^sioner in the Baie des Chaleurs matter. I then asked Mr. Pacaud how it happeni'd that a cheque drawn on the Union Bank ar.d payable unconditionally was in)t paid and that it was necessary to discount a note and give the cheque as security before getting the cash- Then he told me, that the Union Bank was noi in funds at the time, and that it had given a letter which accompanied the cheque by which it undertook to pay it a.-s sooii as it would have received tlite funds from the Government. I then told Mr. PactJud without his asking me " Let me have that note, cheque and letter, and I may perhaps suc- ceed in getting the funds. " I thought T was jierforming a duty in trying to get the funds on a cheque having the official signature of the Government. I knew Mr. Napol6on Lefebvre very well, he ^Vas one of my friends and a Montrciil capitalist. I am not certain whether I wrote to Mr. Napoleon Lefebvre or whether I telephoned to him ; in any case he came to my house, and I told him : " Here is some business that may suit you perhaps : can you discount this note, " secured as I have just stated; and I showed him at the same time the letter of the cashier of the Union Bank. Then he said : " I will see," and he went away with the documents. I did not leave the house that day. The next day I went to the Government offices and as I was passing along St. James street I met him ; he came to me and said that he had tried to get the note discounted at one, or two banks and that there was some difficulty. Then I said to him : 'I asked you if the matter suited you, thinking that I was giving you a good thing, but if you do not do it yourself, return me the note, the cheque and the letter ; I have no interest in the matter ; I was doing it to oblige tome one, but take no further trouble about it." He then returned me the note, cheque and letter, and I returned them to Mr. Paca\id en my next trip to Quebec. Q. On that occasion, when Mr. Pacaud went to see you, was he alone or was he with some one ? A. Mr. Pacaud was alone when he came to my house. Q. Did you notice whether there was some one who remained in the vehicle ? A. I know that there was a vehicle. Q. But do you not know whether there waa some one in it ? A. do not know. Q. Was not Mr. Charles Langelier with Mr. Pacaud '. A. Mr. Charles Langelier was not with him. Q. Do you remember what documents Mr. Pacaud gave you on the occasion you Lave just mentioned : A. An I believe ; i langelier, c Q. You note of Mr. Mr. Valli^re / Hes for Mr. Arm Q. Was that note ? A. That it himself, 1 1 matter ; rotui Q. Did y proposal from A. Mr. M than in the su of the Baie dei completed if i( what he wanie Q. Did yoi matter ? A. Not mc Q- Did you interest whatev A. I only It Q- Did Mr. of the witnesses A. Oh ! neve Q Or in yoi A. Never. Q- I ask you lieve there is a w A. I believe i I do not know of Q. Had you Charles Langeliei A. No, Your , Q. IVow, I thii tunityofexplainii hundred dollars ($ A. Yes, he pai these Quebec gentl would see. I alread other clubt., and I ] those who wished t vTjsaSS53 —~— 9 VJ ^ • He «aid to me that he came tn , "'"' '"''"'^^'' ^'^ . ^ A. That was the only «ten 1 1 . " ' '^'^ ''°" *°°^ *° "'''^ount •t himself, I told him " n ! ^ . '°?''' ''"•' ^'"^n Mr. Lelebvr« . , , matter ; return me t^e not^'s^t .^ ? "^"^ ""^ t-ult „t t '• 'ir ''"* '^^ '=-'" -' "o Q- i^id you know tlm ' u'll ""^ ''^'""^ ^^em to the ner^i th' "" '"'^^«''' ^" '^e oompleto.1 if it were possible but' . I "' ""^' '"^ ^''o"^^ d s./ed t '" ''' ''""^Pletiou in«ere,. „h..cve, i„ ii , '""' <" >"^ W ro.„„ .„ „.,p„ f^- ' "-. Ie„„,a i. „ „., ,,, „^ ^, »'■ '■"""■' ■>.<) any A. Oh. ir """""""""'•"•" -•■^ ■ " '"■ "'"'" '"ol "y '0„e Q Or in your interest ? A. Never. A. I believe that he would haChrr" '""''""" ^^ ''^^ ^^' "? '"'' " ' '" I do not know of any. ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ .lifficulty in paying ,„ \, . Q- Had you knowled. k ' '''' '* ''^'^ '•™«. «« Charles Lan.Lerf °^'^^^^ ^^"^ ''- time, of advances which Mr Pacaud , A. No, Your Honour. ™'''^" *" Mr. m 756 Hon. J. E. Robidoux I would become n shareholder in the club ; I to'd him I would see. While I was in Montreal, I receiveil a letter from Mr. I'acaud sending me a receipt for (*UX)) one hundred dollars, my entrance fee to the Union Club. I returned to Quebec and saw Mr. Pacaud at his hduse, I believe, and I asked him whj' he had paid the hundred dollars {*100) for me " Well " he sai.l, "you had not decided to join the club ; I said to myself once I had paid the hundred dollars you would have to re{)ay my and that you would be a meniber of the club," and I paid him the money, By Mr. (Jasgrain : — Q. Mr. Robidoux, please take communication of the letter, Exhibit No. 34, and state whether it is the orinimil of the letter which accompanied Mr. J. C. Langelier's cheque and Mr. Pacaud's note endorsed by Mr. ValliOre ? A. I cannot siiy exactly whether it is, but it is a letter of that kind. Q. It was a letter addressed to Mr. Bousquet, wa,s it not ? A. To Mr. Bousqnet. Q. By Mr. Webb ? A. By Mr. Webb. Q. Who is this Mr. Lcfebvre of whom you have spoken ? A. He is a Montreal capitalist, who is at the same time ajeweller on Notre-Dame Street, in Montreal. (I. Is he in the habit of discounting notes ? A. Ah I yes. Q. Can you explain how it was that that money could have been for Mr. Armstrong, when it was Mr. Pacaud's note, endorsed by Mr. Vallifere ? A. Well, there was a cheque signed by Mr. Langelier to Mr. Armstrong's order, nnd I understood that Mr. Armstrong empowered Mr. Pacaud to obtain money for him by means of his cheque for twenty thousand dollars ($20,000). Q. How do you explain that a Government cheque could not be passed with Mr. Faca\id'8 note, endorsed by Mr. Valli^re ? A. Well.Mr. Webb's letter was not very reassuring, as it did not tix a date for the payment, it only said when the cheque would be paid. I understood that the note accompanied the cheque to give a date upon which the bank or person carrying out the transaction could depend. There is a condition. I believe, in Mr. Webb's letter that it woultl be paid on such a date provided such a thing Wiis done. Q. You will notice Miat the letter states that Mr. Lanaelier's cheque will be paid if Mr. Garneau's letter of creilit is paid on or before the tenth of .luly, is not that so ? A. Yes. Q. Hud you any doubts as to the payment of the letter of credit by the bank ? A. No, I had not. Q. Wa^ there a fixed date for the payment of the cheque ? (The witness reads Mr. Webb's letter.) A. But, there was a condition in Mr. Webb's letter. Q. The condition was that the letter of credit would be y aid, that the Government would pay Mr. Garneau's letter of credit on or before the tenth of July. A. Yes, but there was no undertaking on the part of Mr. Webb to pay on the tenth of July. Q. h u A. Tlmi Q. Now, the Onlor-in A. Well the twfitity-/i tive that it v> A. Perlu Day? A. Yes, ] Q. On th A. I belit Q. Now, ( A. I belie say that it wa of credit, I wh Q. Did no A. Yes, M Q. Several A. Isays( Q. Mr. Gai believe ? A. No ; it upon the merit Q. Then, h( A. Well, th not asked me n\ fluous, as the O Q. And yot, Mr. Thomhavir Government wa^ in Council had r A. That was ask me my opini Q. Please U opinion you gav( A. Yes, that Q. And Eshi A. It would information givei document, Exhib Q. Now, wht opinion upon the ■ S- ii . ■J^^Ssj'*^,*: Hon. J E Rubidoux 767 <^ Now, CHn you stato, Mr. RohiMm,.- .1 A.YesIbeIieverwa.shereonthetwc.nty-,ift,, Q. On tlie Iwenty.fiCih ? A. I bdieve 80; I cannot be more cvnrf I „f t k ,• Q. Did not Mr. Ross go to your house with Mr f • A. Yes, Mr. Ross came once with Mr. ^.^i^^^ "" '''' ""^ ^'^"^^ Q. Several times ? ^-Tneau , Mr. Garneau came several times believe, ''""«' f">»"rop„„„„ ..,„ „„ ,,^„„y ^, ,^^ ^^^^_^^^^.^^ ^ «. T^en, he did „„. „, ,„„ ,„ ^.„„, ,^^,„ ^^i;';;™"" '■' « '«'■-■? •»n.»o.i„„. ill ^..ouncil had been passed ^ ^' "' ^"« super- «,. T,;„t"';r- -::;: ::s;t':rwtii:r,s:''' <^°"-"' '-^-^ ^ee„ p...., .„, Governmont was bound by the Order i,cl \ \ '" <^<^"eptod by the Governmen tb« .n Counei, had not been cLied'out" ThSr ^^^^0: 7' ^" ''-''-^^ ^r^^^^^^ A. That was the substance of my opinion , '"''"""^^ ^'^^""^ opinion? -k me my opinion upon the question its'f b„t iTo'o^br'r'' "'^''^^ ^« '"^' ""' -'«0 . Q. Please take communication of Exbib N lT '' ' '"'"^''P'' ^^ ^''^• opuuon you gave, Mr. Robidoux. The ori^^'ls hUhlVub ^Wo k"'^""'. ^'^'^' ^^ *^« A. Yes, that is my opinion. ^ °''^^ '<'«°''''- Q- And Exhibit No. 14 is a copy of i, is it not? A. It would take sometime to comnare if hnf t . f- ?58 Hon. J. E. Robidoux w.. ,^"i '^ , ."^ "■""'' "' '^"^ *'"™*' ^ '^'''' '"='*'-««'y *'• "^ position to give an opinion • r 2" " '0.1 ; unsolutely n, W.i. unable to ri«.. Then l.o can.e to talk ove^the mXr wi'th me .. t wuhout .ntor.n, mnol. into th. d.t.ul« ; 1... «,.,k. to m. of the ,K«itior My «t Uo of^-Itl. W.VS snch that I wa. unable to t,ear the fatigue nf studying a ,uestion of law al Su, A ^i'TIZlf'T '"'^' '•*''''' ^'- .^"'■"°"" '''^'''^ >■"" i" y°"r ho"«-' i» Montreal .' A. v\ eN, I could not say ; he e.une twice. . ' " Q. Was it before the Order in ("ouneil was passed ' A. My recollection i. that it w.w before tlio Order in Council was parsed. y. >ViiM 11 before the seventeenth of April ? return fJonfw vT ^'^7" ^^r'"''"'""'^ ' ^ ^"^'''^^'' ''"^' '' ^'«« ''"'mediately after mv retain lioni ^ew \ ork, as far as I can rcnieniber. and Xf'sxluJ.^T^T' ^^''^" *^.^P"«'^"d left you the documents, the note, the cheque sul« 1 i 1 I ' '""' '""''' '^"^ ''° ^"" ^'"^ '° «^^" t" Mr. Armstrong if vou should succeetl in discounting the note ? ' buouiu A. There was no question of that. Q. Was there no question of that at all ? A. No ; I did not know wlie^e Mr. Armstrong was at the time Q. Botwxvn the twenty-eighth of Ap. il .and the fifteenth of July, did you receive from Mr. Pacaud, dm ctly or indirectly any HUni of money ? A. No, Sir. Q None to your knowledge 1 A. Neither before, nor after, nor since ; I never received a cent from Mr. Paeaud. Q. You never received a cent from Mr. Pacaud ? A. Never. Q. Neither directly nor indirectly ? n„t t^/TV^'T^^' '■""■ :":^''-!-^'=^'y- «" ^'"^^ there may be no doubt upon the question Mr Pv id'urn '"'"' ^t"''7"P""^'"^"^' *'^^'^'^"^''^ ^"^'I received nothhig fro, Hn ; i ' [' "'. "■ ''^"''" '" ^'""S '"*^ '^"^■''''"^' • '^'^' I ^^""''' have shown him the door 1 he hao sp„ken about it, and I do not e.Vpect to receive anvthing. And I desTre t! '^^IX^:^-'''' " ''' Pacaud-Armstrong transactio/at the t^Ha,;: Q. When Mr. Mercier asked for explanation.s upon the part vou had taken in the Tm w !" ?'r''""'/^'^ y™ t^" l"- tl-t Mr. Pacaud's note, withMr. LangeS chec and Mr. Webb's letter, had been left with you ? ' A I do not think so Mr. Mercier a^keJ me to say whether I knew of any irregularitv in that mn.ter and to tell him so if there was ; now. I did not consider that an irregularit?. By Mr. Beique : — A. Was not Mr. Cannon your assistant ? A. Mr, Cannon was my assistant at that time. Q. Do you know whether he gave an opinion on the question ' A. Yes, Sir. Q. Respecting the Order in Council, I believe ? Q. Yes. Q. Do y lo Quebec, n A. Yes, Q. Doy opinion ? A. Yes, qiie.-tion oft Q. Have regularity of A. No ' knew conceri Q. And i^ A. That i Q. You ai A. Yes. Q. You a| A. I appri Q. Do yoi the conversior A. My Go( just now. Q. It is vei A. It is vei Q. (buld y under the impr A. Ah! no. the affair was a It, Mr. Garneau thing I wished t by the shares ht but, in short, I v held. " Then wo were the persons that there were '. and I, wore of op enterprize would their names in ai would be carried Q- And as Ai A. I was sati; By Mr. Casgr Q. Who sign€ Thorn was acjting A. I believe i think it wa« Mr. G ffon. J. E. Hobidoux i "i 759 Q. Do you rompmbor wlu'thop tlm* « • ■ Q:D':;,v:;:3r.;vr.^:;;:::"«'°^ op,„i,.„ . J--' -P"»..i .,.rr„,..„. „■ ,,„ „i, .„„ ^„„ ^^^^^^^^^^^ .^ ^ A. 108, ho coinmunicatc-d it to nm ..„ ''"'q' Havo'^rr'"''"''""- "'" ^"'"' *'P'""^"^'' '' '"«■'- r I'elio^e, the reguWi£oT£p7r'irConS' ^""'" '^^ "*''^"^^^«- entertained any cloubt« an to the '""o"rnT-t^"''^^ the explanations which he Q- And ,,, that what you stated at th. time" ^' ^"""^""y '•^^"■'''•. A. Ihat .s what I statKl at the time. Q. You approved of the opinion he had given? Q. You approved of it verbally whon h\. ■ ■ A. I approved it v-erhally. '' ''f'""™ ^"« communicated to you ? Q. Do you remember whethf-r Mr n the conversion of the subsidy int^m^ne;""" ^'°'^ ^'^ ^'^^ ^'i-^elf about the question of . A. My God ! We had so many conversation, Af .- J"«' "*>^^- ^ >^ersat.o„s, Mr.Garneauand F. that I do not remember Q- It is very possible that he spoke to you about if A. It >s very possible, but f do not ren.omber. -^U:LS^ have left him ^;^f.::::dt-^^ It, Mr. Garneau and I spoke <,f the matter m d h . ^ " '"'''^ '''S"^^'- ^e talked about thmg I wi.hed to be satisbed about rh^w^'^,' ^^'l^^'^.f^'"' ^'--au that there wa!' ^ by the shares held in trust by Mr. Tbom ; I sai ' i hn . "? f'"''""" ^'''° ^^''^ represented but, in short, I would like to know exi.tlv tv! ' I ^ "" '*^^'''"" "« to Mr. Thom's honestv he^. "Then we telegraphed, MrcS;ea:;rr7:^-;T^-^ ^^'^^ "'- slarTaTe' were the persons for whom these shares were hel I i tn '. T' '° "^'""^ ^^"'" ^'^n^ who that there were Mr. Dawes, Mr. Williamson Mr Fwn ',"".'' ^'^'"'™ received the answer and I, were of opinion that with names such as il ''""'' '''^''''- '^^'^'^"' ^«. ^^r- Garnrau enterpr^e would be managed in a serious " irL;: hk 'm"' n*^" '^"^' ^'°"^' ^^^t "e % -'/»•. Casgrnin ;— ^o*r:r,t '"- '*-- "■•' - - .» «. <^„p„ „„„, ,,„ ,„ ^^^ ^ •760 Hon. J. E. Robidoux Q. The answer is reproduced, but not the telegram itself ? A. Well, the telegram was sent from Mr. Garneau's office. bv A?; cZ:.r ^ '° ""^^'^'^'^d that you take the legal responsibility for the opinion given L^lyt^e^Grnme::^*^-"^ '^^^"^^ °^ *^« Lnsaction^rc"aS Q. Then you adopt it as if it were your own ? ^ And further the deponent saith not. And the Commission then adjourned. J. B^LANGER, ' Clerk of the Commission. CANADA. ■Pkovince of Qui District of Quel Issued under Louis-A. Jett^, j Judge of the Cour of the Superior O stances which prei Act 54 Victoria, cl The fifth day Hiid ninety-one. THE HONOUR duly sworn upon the -6?/ Hon. Mr. Jm Q- You attended A. Some of the 8 Q. You heard soi which were endorsed A. Yes. Your Ho Q- And endorsed "angoisLangelier? A. Yes, Your Hor Q. Do you remem A. It would be dif the day before or the s date, I cannot give it. Q. Were the notes A. The Honourab require funds for contei Mercier was kind enout which he placed his em I h' KOYAL COMMISSION „ CANADA, ■Pkovince of Quebec I District of Quebec, 'j Issued under the Great Seal of th of the Superior Courf r'l ^^' ''"'' "^^ Honourahle Chap,, u ^ '"^'"'^""^s Baby, 19th SITTING Phesent : ^eHo„ourab:eMr.«eeLo.s.A.W. President. « ,. t:°^'^-F«ANcois- Georges: Baby Chaules-Peers Davidson, ' THE HONOURABLE C A p t>t?ttt,« f^ommismnera. "' ■""'" "^" "■« »»'.' '^v.n.'i.H SSt I't;:!!'- »' «"*- ^".-. Bein, % ^o«. 3fr. Justice Jetti ;_ Q. And endorsed by you and th. w FrangoisLangelier? '^ *^^ Honourable Messrs, Mercier rh^« T ,• A. Yes, Your Honour? '^'"^'''^'- ^"^ Q. Do you remember at what Hoto fi plMed h» e„eMion M dopoBitary 762 Hon. C. A. P Pel letter in case we would want them. As far as I can remember, there were four, which were given to me. These were merely blank pieces of paper upon which was Mr. Mercier's endorse- ment. Q. Were those notes afterwards filled up ? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember under what circumstances and by whom they were filled up ■> A. They were endorsed and filled up, I do not know who filled in the blank, but thov were endorsed by the Honourable Charles Langelier they were Asned by Mr. PMcnnd with the endorsement of the Honourable Mr. Mercicr, the Honourable Francois Lnneelior' myselt, and Mr. Tarte, I believe. Q. Do you remember how many signed blanks were niadc use of? A. As far as I can remember we made use of three. The fourth remained in niv possession for several weeks, a couple of months even. Q. Was that one made u>e of later ? A. Later, Mr. Pacaud, accompanie.t by Mr. Langelier, came to my office. Mr. Pacaud T- f If^^"" ^" '"^ ^""'^^ '^'"''^ ^® ^"^ received from the Honourable Mr. Mercier in Which Mr. Mercier, for private business, for certain things which he wished to purchase asked for a certain sum, and asked him to take it out of one of the signed blanks he had lett with me. As it was the only one that remained 'in my possession, I gave it to Mi' Pacaud m presence of Mr. Charles Langelier. Q. Was that signed blank filled up before you on that occasion ? A. I believe so. All that I know, I endorsed it in presence of Mr. Pacaud and Mr Charles Langelier. I do not remember exactly if the rest of the note was filled in. I believe SO* Q. Do you remenibe, the amount for which the first three signed blanks were used ■' A. Itnpi^sible, because I did not evei. look. I knew fur what purpose it was I thon.ughly knew with whom I had to du, and I had not the curiosity to look neith.'r'at the date nor the due date of the note. At the time, I must have seen the amount but I cannot with certainty state what was the amount of each of the three notes which I endorsed Q. Do you believe that it exceeded f, 5,000 each ? A. I do not believe it My impression is that it was $o,(iOO -each. However. I cannot swear it. I do not think it exceeded that. q. After these notes were signed and endorsed, what was done with them, who took them away and made use of them ? A. It was Mr. Pacaud who took them in charge, as being the person who was l.a.kin.' alter the deposits to be made for the election contestations. I have never heard of thenl since . Q. You did not concern yourself about getting them discounted ? A. No, Your Honour, m.t at all. I never saw them since. Q. You never paid them ? A. No, fortunately. Q. You state that these notes were signed especially to provide for the expenses to be incurred tor election contestations ? A. That was the purpose of the notes which the Honourable Mr. Mercier wis good enough to leave us to assist us in meeting the expenses necessary in making these doposita. Q. Do you know how many elections were contested, how many contestations won" proauced ? -A. I did not and counter-petii Q- I believe ten, perhaps fifte, A. Yes, eoun not affirm ns to th Q- You did m A. Not at all. Q. Do you kn A. *],0()0. Q. Can you pc and tilled up, eithf to you ? A. Here are fc ^y Mr. Casgrm Q- Will you i,„ -fiy Mon. Mr. Jt Q- Does that in. A. Yes, because Q- Will you ind: A. Yes. There aj 15th April 86-1. Th( be the last of those tl Q. What is the n A. 89-5. I ii„,| t the last in date and it possession ; otherwise gave back. That of tl Number 86-] is the las Mr. Langelier, and tlu % Mr.Amyot;— Q- For what amoi A- For $5,000. % Hon. Mr. Justii Q- Finally, upon w means of establishing it A The only means the others. I have no o nate has been changed. Q. The observation afterwards ? A. I did not affirm t '\kI CO 'hat the matters, Hon. a A. P. Pellelier 763 Q. I belie've ShTt ^o;, 't'TeT] "'"' ""^ ^■"^ or IvJ^ ''''"**'^^^ -ere contestations ten, perhaps fifteen ? ^^' '" ^'^"^ '^^i^'ence bcfon- the Senat. .> , , A. Yes, counting the conn. • • ' '^'''^ ""^'^ "* '«««* notaffir.astothenV™Lr'^^-P^^'''°-.- ^"t, before the Senate I stated tl . r S:I-:?arar""~-''-^'-.V. '^--^"-Icomd J-.onW.hata.onnthadtohedepo.tedoneachoccasi,.n. --M---^^^^^^ were so ie. .th .. ^'^ °"- ^^'^^^^^ - - shown ^y Mr. Casgrain :— Q- Will you indicate the numbers? Ml % Hon. Mr. Justice Jett^, .__ A. 89-5. I ,i„,, th " H , u^ ^»^'«''sement ? the Inst in date and it i. thwart 'u'JT '"'t "'^'^'^ ^^«« '^^l^ed for by Mr M. • possession ; otherwise T n , i ^ ^'''''^ ""^ck. That was tl.a I Mercicr, as it is gave back. That o the n ".°V''«"tify it, but I ident fvTt bv h "^.""^ '^''"^^ ^ ^«^ *" '"y ^^umber 86-1 is e a ^^ vo' ^r^"' '' '^^ «-^- that of t 'e i/^'/f^-., f ''^ the last I Mr. Langelier and thrn, ."'''' ''^ ^^'- ^'^•^•'""I's request ,-,. ^"' '*^^" '« t^elast. ei, and the p.oceeds whereof were to be semto 'heV? "'■?' '''' honourable By Mr. Amyot .— " "''' Hon.mrable Mr. Metcier. Q- For what amount ' A- For $5,000. ^y Ifon. Mr. Justice Jett6 :- •764 Hon. C.A.P. Pelletier Ottawa. I do not remember the date. I did not even notice whethw the date was on the note when I signed it. Q. If I understand you correctly, the signed blanks which were given to you by Mr Mercier, had his signature cin the back, as endorser ? A. Yes. there was nothing written of the rest; the date and body of the note were not written out. Q. These signpd blanks were afterwards filled up asyou required to make use of them' A. Yes. Q. Tlie other signatures, the other endorsements were written afterwards. A. Afterwards, but in my presence, ^'.l^'T' '",^'^® statement of nccounts made by Mr. Pacand, I see that he mentions a sum ot ij.1,000 which were handed to you as election expenses? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Will you kindly tell us whether you have any explanations to give as to that ? A I received that amount from Mr. Pacaud on another occasion for sums which were specia iy claimed for election accounts. The amount passed through my hands, and was . iramediatdy handed ..ver for the purpose for which it was intended. That is the item in the account produced by Mr. Pacaud as 88-32, dated the 18th of May. Q. Did Mr. Pacaud know what this amount was for ? A. I applied it for the purpose for which it was intended. Q. When did you give it. It was not for yourself personally ? A. Oh ! not at all ; I gave rather than received. Q. When you endorsed the different notes which were produced here, was there any question ol the manner in which these notes were to be afterwards paid ? A.I remenriber perfectly, when Mr. Mercier in our presence sig.ied these notes-seeing that he was going away-he then mentioned that he hoped we would make use of them with discretion, seeing that he gave his signature on blanks, and the worst that could happen was that we would each pay our share equally ; but we counted on the reimbursing of tliese sums, in great measure, of the deposits which we made in expecting to gain some at least of the contestations and to reimburse ourselves in that way. Besides, we were to have recourse to our friends Jo assist us to pay. There was no question of anything else at the time. We had no other resources to make them either. Q. From that time, did you not suspect that those notes had become due ? A. Naturally. Q. Did you inquire how they had been disposed of? A. No, Your Honour, not at all. The first time I became sure that the notes had been met, was when the Baie des Chaleurs matter was in question before the Senate I supposed that Mr. Pacaud had succeeded in getting some subscriptions. I had not heard of them; I did not concern myself about them ; I had not heard how they had been paid. Q. Did yon not ask whether they had been paid ? A. No, I was in Ottawa at the session. I supposed that the matter had been settled, as I was not spoken to about it. Sy ^Ir. Casi Q. Do you 1 use of to make d A. I cannot election contesta but J know that all that I know < Q. Do you k viously signed. A. No. I did they were renews Q- You had e A. Yes, befor and I cannot even ones ; it is imposs Q. When you A. No. Q. It was i'or ( A. It was fur Q. For other t A. Very prob By Mr. Amyot Q- Will you re signed blanks whic! he was at your hou A. I believe no Q. It is that on A. Yes. Q- You did not A. Why I thin! now, it is about a co the last I gave to Mi Q- You did not A. No. I gave it for the same purpos( Q. Some time b( Honourable Frangoif onlhe28thofFebru A. It was before Q. That, that is < A. It is Exhibit Q. So that is not the signed blanks whi A. No. Hon. C. A P. Peiietier By Mr. Oiagrain :— Q. Do you know as a matter of fact thnt f . election contestations, I was not hAr"? . ,''"* '"'' ^'^^ '' Jeposited I npv^r af* , . A. Yes, before that but I lo no . J" '"''"''^'"^ 'h"««? y. It was lor electoral purposes •> A. It was for other purposes. W- For other electoral purposes ? A. Very probably. By Mr. Amyot : ■ ^; u^'" ^"^ '■*'''«'■ 'o 'his Exhibit No B« V s'gned blanks which you left a.Tf IwfT .V °" ^cognize in it do you not nn . .u he..satyourhouse^wol:t'^ tT^^^^^^^^ A. I bel.eve now that it is that one. ''" ''^^ '^"' '° ''^'^^ '^e la.t signed blanks" H- It is that one, is it not '^ A. Yes. Q- You did not endorse that one ? 2^p^:^^^::r:^t ^:t '-'-rr ^^'^^ -^- ^-ted just the last I gave to Mr. Pacaud, Exhibit No. 98 ' "'' '''' '^''''- ^I'ls one ml' be Q. You did not endorse it ? A. It was before that. Q- That, that is exhibit A. It is Exhibit 88-1. A. No. 706 Hon. C. A. P Pelletier Q. We have just found this one for «6,000; then we have dropped also, the fourth • now o hrsiJrSVr 'f ' "'^'^ '''' ''^"'' •'"'^""^'^ ^^ y-' -'''^^« whethe that i^ o" e oi the signed blanks in question ? leavitg-^Si! '"*"''' '^' "^^'^ ''^ '^'' ""'' ""^'"^ '^^ Honourable Mr. Mercier signed before Q. Consequently, you drop that one. Of the three notes which we have looked over there 18 then only one of the four which Mr. Mercier had left ? A. The 3Uth of June that is one of the four. A JL' " f-"!! T'V" ^'r^**'* ^^"^ ''"'* '*"'° ^^^"'•^^^ ^* ^« °"« °f ^1^« "gned blanks ? A. ihe loth April I have already stated that it was one. Q. Here is the second, here is another of the first of April ? A. 1 have already mentioned that one. Q. The third would be 89-9 '■' A. Yes. w.r.^" T" n"''l! ^"""^^ ^' f "^' "'' *''" '^^* °^ ^^'"' '^l^^- Those then are the four notes which were lelc on blank paper and which Mr. Mercier had endorsed at the time of his leaving' A. At the time ot leaving or in the evening or of the previous day ' q. One lor *3,OOo.OO, two fyr $.3,000.00 and one for $6,000.00, in ailVl9,000.00 •> are nt„SsU:trS:3 Ind Si""" '^' '' ^^^ ""'''''' ^'''^ ^'' ^'^^— ^" ^'^^ Q. To return to the two others, we have spoken of 88-1, and you slated that it wa, previous to his one, and for other purpo.ses ; will you refer to' Exhibit 89-6 and tato a re^:;;;'irei:ar"'"""" ""^''''"^' "^ ^"^^ ^'^-"^^^ ^^^°^^ ^^••- ^-- ^^^ - '•:: an, w^rl'''"'1?T'*^*'*'''^^''*'^^'''"'"^' °^ '^^ day before, or the same morning I amiiotpositive. I believe It was the same morning. « """ung. i Q. That one, that is Exhibit No. 89-5. A. Y s. A. Y'es. Q. That, that is apart from the disbui-soments which require to be made with the Frothonotary, ae by law provided ? A. Yes. By Mr. Casgrain .•— May it please the Commission. It will be observed that there is a very marked con- tradiction between the evidence just given by Mr. Senator Pelletier and the evTde, ce given by Mi-. Pacaud, who discounted the notes. Senator Pelletier states tha the no which are shown here are the four notes which were endorsed by him for the purpose making deposits in election contestations. Now, Mr. Pacaud gave us three note^ aTbein. the three signed blanks left with Senator Pelletier for that purpose. A fourth note w.is not used for that purpose and was used for other purposes We have not seen i and were unable to question Mr. Pacaud upon that note. Nowf seeing the con'ra die u,n between tins evidence and that which Sen.ttor Pelletier has just given and see nt that Senator Pelletier. being the depositary ot these notes, must be better fnform "than Mr Pacaud, we subj the Commission .'/r. Beique :■ I cannot ma imprcR' i<,n that i Senator i^oiletter Prime Minister, identified; there i of June. ERNEST PA tfon. Mr. Justi Q. Mr. Pacaud those which you y examine them ; al verify those differe promissory notes t account, Mr. Viillii McGreevy mutter, J with your entries, j approve these figure A. Very well, Y Whereas Alexar before us this day, clerk of the Circuit' ( the said Alexander 1 which shall be held i ALEXANJlERI sworn on the Holy Ev (Thepresfint Q. Mr. Light, you A. I am. Q. And of course IS taking place now '/ ' A. Yes. Q- You know Mr. E. Pamvd~A. L. Light 767 Pacnnd, we submit that wp l,nv« • i. ^''''^^^'==^====: Mr. Bnque :~ statement ol account is not exact. oi April and another of the 30th iiii^siiiss Ordeu. Whereas Alexander L. Liirht of OnnV, sworn on the Holy Evangehsts SI;! tr^.^ '^''''^' "-1 engineer, being duly ^-a?ing;l::rT^°"'"°^*^^«^^^^-^^^'-Rai,w.yabout.hichthisCom.^ A. Yes. Q. You know Mr. Armstrong, who was the contractor ? 768 A L. Light A. Coitiiinly. A. I'r, ''*'""''' ^^° '""' '"'* '"^ ''"'' "'"' *'"'■' ^""'^ *'"' ^^^'^"'•« ^'^"^'ly ? Q. You were the company's engineer, I beliuve ? A. I was, yes. Q. Do y.,u recollect generally the works being done on the road ? A. I (jo. Q. Do you recollect about what time the work ceased ? A. Somotime I tlr.nk, in the autnnui ol 1889, but I am not good on dates and it I. rumirof STth r.r '''"^t^^^t' '''''' '' ^'^ ^^""«'^' -"-^ ''■' ^^t t thSz'. ; autumn ol 1889 thHt ihe works really ceased. Q. DoyourecollectgivingsomecertiHcatestotheBaiedesChaleurs Railway Company' Q. I presume you saw a claim which was filed bv Mr Arm«tron,r ..n.,i„=f *u o • , (Exhibit is shown to witness.) A. I never saw that till I saw it in the Senate Committee. I never saw it and kn«u, Q. But you were aware that some certificates had been given bv von tn ti,o r • des Chaleurs Railway Company, on which that claim purported t'obe madJup ? ^ """' A. The hrst seven item, had been given by me. They were not prepared by me Thev were prepared by Mr. Armstrong and Mr. LeDnc, I presume; and they Le brought to me by Mr. LeDuc or my approval. Whe.. they were first brought to me in the eirlW lorchitled! ^--'----P^^- - ^•'e actual ca.h ^es of th"e woVJe'^! ■Q. As mentioned in these certificiitrs? P.nf "^Th"^* "mentioned in these ce, tiricates. They were increased on an average of fifty per cent. They were brought to me in acconlance with the contract, and the companv to filh.n JT.'^f ^'"'"r "!,''?• ^'^P'*^^^ "^^^ ^-'--d - - average olS-n,n cases 80 %-but on he whole thing an average of 50 %. Before I would sign th^m I v m down .0 Pasp b.ac no consult the president of the road, in whom I had a good uZilZl fidence; and I a.ked h,m why this large increase in price was allowed, and he told nie tha th reas.,n it was increased so much above the cash value of the aoad w^s that U contractor, Mr. Armstrong, took a very considerable part of his payment in bondl b. >ITT^ '^'^ed him why they wanted to get these certificates, there are no debentures * to be had, they are altranslerred to the sub-contractors, and what is the object of these «l- t.hca es ; and he told me that he thought the contractor wanted them simply to show wl creditors hat eventually money was coming to him, and they had not the slightest obje t on, an.l they approved ol h,s having them, and I then signed them : but I took III tSese ste,,s to .ati^lymysell that the company approved these things before I did it The an quantities were used either with the sub-contractors or with the contractor himself Tl simple difference was that the prices of the work were increased so as to bring the work up t_o^cost 01 mm per mile, which was the company's contract with the contractor * See note at end oj deposition. Q. Then, what had beei A. He nu he arranged th Q- Ofcoui Armstrong anc A. One wfl were likewise p Q. Will vo, 181b, 181c, 18 Exhibit No. 18 Mr. Armstrong' Witness Ul A. These ai Q- Were th, A. They we struck out soniel presented by Mr Q- Did you relationship as t. A. I had at t about fifty per ce Q. Have you A. I have no( I saved them or n Q. Have you A. They reall, the sub-contractor Q. Have you i the relationship be A. No, I have 1 was to give me the Q. Have you a be issued on this Bn A. This is a m« what people have sa late Mr. James Gibh went at the request ^ of it. I could not su and he said he woulc were not worth fifty thought they were w Q. That basis o guarantee ? A. He said they guarantee. Q. Do you know ' A. L Lii^hl atronc nnrJ ♦! i ^-'^'''"cate which wnnU .u _ .. were '"■""■ """ "■» '«'««<.n».,ip between „. Q- Of course' one w.w .• „„ »-,. Armstrong and i\JZZ ''^^''^'''cate whicl b "fill ine suh-contractor. - ' "^ " --"e reiationsliin k„, A. One was prcnarpH oi«, u '"'onsiiip between Mr, IMl'. IMc. 181,1, lai"; isVf .«"" "I""" ""^ "«•■> «lrf in .hi. „ Ertibit Ho. ISk the I'f;', "'«."" ■=» ">» rr-i7f;rprorr--^^^^ .,.,a„.ee, '»"■«"'"■ wo"l.l 'ha. he eonditio.,,., .„ ,,„,„, . ^ ,„^„He„i.the..er.„o..rth„ft,,etee„.,.„ab,™,,,ha.e.o;..;~ Q- Do you know wh. ..,, , u .. °«f'^«a(-overnment Q. Do you know wh.. 49 •-'>^' bo the co.st Of .e Government guarantee? W' 770 A. L. Light A. Two million dolluw of bonds for ten years, it would be ono million doUure you would Viave to deposit. It would be five per cent. Q. llefi rring again to these cerlilicates, I see some of them are dated the 1st July, 188'J, and two are dated the 1st September and one the 'Jth October. Can you toll me whether they were signed by you about the aame date ? A. No, I think not. They were signed at ditferent dates. Certain parts of the work weie completed before others, and those signed the latest were, if I remember, the latest com- pleted. That is the reason, I think, of the ditferent dates of the signatures. Q. This claiui that Mr. C. N. Amstrong would have in connection with the ruad^ would that include the value of the work done by the sub-contractors, and, say, Mr. Macl'arliine's claim? A. Yes, we put everything into it, perfectly regardless of who it was done by. Q. And you had been over the road siilBciently to know that Mr. Macfurlane had done a large amount of work ? A. Oh ! Yes, he done a large amount of work, and some other people had done a large amount of work. Q. And these certificates cover all the work done, no matter by whom ? A. They cover all the work done, no matter by whom. Q. Did you have any idea of what Mr. Macfarlaue's claim wus worth ? A. Well, it would be difficult for me to say, because on the forty miles he did it by tlio day and he received a percentage of 12%. Q. Well, from your position of engineer and having gone over the road, can you give us an appro.\imated idea of what his claim would amount to ? This question is objected to by Mr. Beique on behalf of Mr. James Cooper and by Mr. C. N. Armstrong. Question withdrawn. Q. Mr. Light, from your examination of the work and the matters connected with the railway, after the work had ceased in the fall of 1889, are you able to state anything about the rolling stock i' A. Not particularly. No, I cannot state that exactly. Q. Can you give us an idea of the value of it ? A. Well, I did make an estimate, which ought to be forthcoming. I made an estimate of the rolling stock that ought to be put on. Q. Did it also contain an estimate of what rolling stock was on ? A. I think it was not all there. I would not like to say much about that. I am not sure about that. Q. But you made an estimate or report to the company ? A. I miide an estimate for the company of the least rolling stock that would be required. I think ii was very considerable. Q- And would shew the value of the rolling stock that should be on the road ? A. I gave it to them shewing what I considered the least ihat should be put on. Q. Do you recollect what time you gave that to them ? A. No, I could not say— three or four years ago. I gave it to them pretty early in the prooeedinge. The work began in 1886 and finished in 1689. Q. This report which you gave was an estimate of the rolling stock which should be on the road ? A. Yes. Q. For the 100 miles ? A. For t Q. You^ A. Yes, t Q. The p A. Yes. Q. Doyu these certifica A. Very 1 Q. At the amount for ro A. I ihinl Q- Are yc A. No, I c Q. Appro; A. No, . c( I gave to the p Q- I see th up, you mentio miles, that shoi A. That is, road is finished Q. And yoi A. Yes, oxa Q- Now, in payable ? A. Y'es. Q. In certifi «146,472.08. In payable as *1 19,0 18*119,196.80. I «Si,014.9I ; and «23,216.32, and fc not that the case A. Y^es. Q. And, as y> some caaes and 4 A. Was dedi By Mr. Beiqi Q. Mr. Light, filed as Exhibits company ? A. I did not r to be perfectly cer Q- The presidi A. For the 100 milea. Q. You gave it to the company / Q. Do you know what (luantitv oC . u- A.- tCuHt*;: '"" "• '- -" "■«« .>.e« »„ „,■ ,„,„„ .,„„ Q. Approximately? Q. I see that on these certiOeates PvhiK-* 10, up, you mention a certain f,ercent.,ge ' Ifi or u I '" ^"^T- ""t of the total amount f5eur«H miles, that .should be retained ? ^ ' '"^ ''' '^'' ^"'^"'•'y "'!!'■« and 40% ior the.ublequem A. Tliat is, the contract betwepn Mr t road iH finished to Pa^pebiac. '' -^"»«^'°ng and the company says that until the A.- V::r;:""--"^------«amountthatshou,dbe retained. --- ^' ^" "'" ^°- "^^' '^^ — - -- A . y. certi, .e«.. . A. Yes. Q. In certificate Exhibit No ibik 1146,472.08. In certificate fifh bU jJo'^r-'r'' '''•^"°""' '^ P^^^^ble for section P „ *al,014.Ul ; and Exhibit Wn lai* .• ''*^'-"*^" ^. the amount you certitv 00 ■»"*•'"'" « «.,r,oico.> *^*u*oii ao. 181f, lor section k' ti. t-eriuj as pavab e is «Ail6.32, and for sections K,L,M and \ hi '"""''"' ^"'^ ^^rMfy as payable ! not that the case ? ' ' ""' '^"'^ ^^' "'« amount certified as payable i^Soo fe A. Yes. Q. And, afl you have stated, it means that c some ca^.s and 40 % in other c.es weTe deleter ''' '"°""^ '' ''^ -^^^^-'es, 15 56 in A. Was deducted. iiy Mr. Beique : company, ■"1«'«1M.,,0„ „.<,, „„,e „^j,„„„„, ,^ ,^^ pCdo„T„7,h: Q. The p«.,de„. „, ,he oomp.„y. ,fa„ „„ ^, ., .Z^;,,^^ , I 772 A. L. Light A. Senator Roblfitulle. Q. And hf was snii ''od thftt tho . stimatcs woru correct 7 A. lie was siitistieil witli ivj^ard to tho incroaite of price,— 50% incriasod price wliicli I Hhowedliini, Q. And iu certain ciwes Wd%J A. Yes. but it averaged 50 % all tlirouKh. Q. TliiH.- ccrtificnteH wore sigtiod alx.ui, the date; thoy hear or within a month or no ? A. The date w(Mdd be on every one uf tlicni. H. Well, did you Mign ceitilicates before for previous work on the roiid ? A. I had signed for between the contractor and the sub-contractor. Q. But between the contractor and tlio company, did you not sign certificates 7 A. -Not before I saw th(! president. When the> lirst canio to nie, I went and saw him. Q. It wiishvith reference to tho certilicatts Exhibits No. 181a to 181g and 182 that you saw the president? A. Yea. y. And you are quite eure youthad not signed previously for work done before 7 A. I am not aware that I did. I know I wanted to have his opinion on it, and I went specially to see him. Q. Will you refer to tlie certificates now shew!! to you and now filed as Exhibits Nos. 202a, 202b. 202c, 202d, and say if you have not signed these certificates at or about ih.i dates they respectively bear? A. Witness refers to exhibits. Yes, these were signed by me. That is my signature. Q. They cover work done previously by Mr. Armstrong on the road in question ? A. Yes, work done on the road by whoever it was. Q. Will you take communication of the estimates now shewn you and filed as Exhibits Nos. 203a, 203b, 203c, and 203d, and say if these certificates were also signed by you at or about their respective dates ? Exhibits are handed to witness. A. I think these are all signed by me. Q. At or about their respective dates ? A. Yes. Q. And they cover works previously done un thu road 7 A. Previously done. Q. Did you make any objections at the time of the signing of these certificates 7 A. I wish to be understood that I went to Senator Robitaille, tho president of the Compariy, in the first instance, when the first certificates came on, and I then explained iver>t;;ing to him, when the first of these certificates were brought to me in the earlier e*a; :?>» of the work. It was not the last one. Q. Itwa' the summo^ of the Q- Was that the evidence you gave? A. Ihat was my evidence that I gave. % .'/r. ^r,«,/ro„^ ;_ r-.esun.ed of course he had them. A. They are k< nerallv the nrinn» ♦>.„* *""*""» iVos. ISla and 1S1«? "^ that were given. ' ^^^^^ '"^^^ -re shewn to ,„e. They a're ahout ,he prices that :iea» 1'^ 114 A. L. Light Q. Do you see any prices that are not exactly the same? A. I do not. irthey were read over I could compare them better. Q. All the items that you have compared are the same ' 0... w/.i ErtSs »rz't: «r" "°- "° """' ' '"'""' "- "''"' "' "■' "'"«■ mhl.^'r? '"'■ """ ""' ■"' """' ''"* '° '"• """" ""'■^■^ P™ '» set them ,l„w„ to a A. Yes, to get them to the average. Q. That would mean to take one-half off' A. Yes. Q. That is to say, that anything that was down for $1.00 would be worth oOcts.? A. JN O. price^/^'" ^'^'''' ^"''" "^""^^ "'' "*" *•"" ^^P'-ession that you had to take 50% off these A, Thflt these prices were increased fifty per cent Q. Then, in that case, they were only thirty-three and a third per cent too high ? A. They were mcreased. I found, about 50% above the sub-cot.tractors' prices of fif?y pe'c-'nt ' '"'' """ *^"^^-*^^^ ^'^^^ '^ ''^^ P- °«»t should;be taken off instead A. I said it was increased fifty per cent. Exhi^No.' 2M? *"'' ^"™'"""'«'^*'«" °f 'l>i« document, Mr. Light, which is produced as The production of this exhibit is objected to bv Mr. Hall The question, on being referred to the Commissio.i, Mr. Armstrong declares that ho does not msirt on the production ,.f this document »s an exhibit. Q. Yon have stated thHtthef i Q- And invariably thev werp fVio .o o rx than for the sub-contractors ^ ''' "™^ ' ""' "-'- °'--ed to ,et a vard more for me n«lv„.e„ce thai he u.od the „.,„ Tw, 1™ ' ,« , ?'",""" "• """ """ i' «•"» tl.™h ■PPe... .., h„ .„„e„ „„ ,.,.. ,, ,„, „..^ . ir:;;--- - ;^.e„£.; ( £^.«m,«.i «p„^ tke special application oj Mr. lUi^ue.) Mr Beique .■— Q. Mr. Cannon, you are assistant attorney trener,! „ A. Yes, Sir. ""'""^«y generil, aiv you not? Q. You were so in the month of April last ' A. Yes, Sir, •776 L.J. Cu mmm you ? ^""' ^°- ^2- '""^ ^^■■'^^ ^^'I'ether that opinion w«8 signed by .^ ^ A. Jhe opinion which I have ju.t read wa« given by n. and .i«„ed by n,c on the date Q- Exhibit No. 12 is a copy of it, is it not? cop; Of r s^ ri:ntv; • :: ;:r ''-'''' ^" ^^^ -- ^^^ ^^ ^^^- - '^^ a ... Mr. ai J:o^:^ri:is2^:rit;::r^r'r'^ ^^^^"'^-^^^"' -^ ^p"' > ^^^ ^'-'"' came to n.y office. Mr I esaTe bro Ji T' n IT ^°""°'-i«"er o^' ^^'blic Works Lantjolior, as re,.osen i rZ! r . ^^^'••/^'^«m l"^'! Mr. Lnngelier, and told me that Mr questio.,s'to suI^^Urni^ tn ;; S" r G^'n ^'^ —----, Lad ee.ain wished to have mv onininn ''"'^" ^^'; ^'''"''f '; ^'^ Commissio, e- of Pnblic VVork« ChrysoMume Lang^ He C can.; M. l"'"^ -P''"»ed to n.e .hy M. Thon. and M. returned to his office Mr Thomthln ^ ^^ -.7'' '''T' ''' "^'"^ ""^ ^•^"''^"' "" ^^e time, he the wutten opini. n .v^Ih^ gTve Tndlrfi; "V" f T'f "'"'' "-''^'^ '« ™-^'«"«d in debentnres of the «aie des Chi' « i '^^^ ^"'"J^^l thousand dollars (.teOO.OOO) of placed these docuLnrofarevotr,™^^^ Perfectly that he he or Mr, Chrysost6me L nge, ' th '" ^^^Z", 1 '^ r'"'"'^ ""' "^ '^''^^' '''" '^''^^^ Mr-^Oarneauwi^edtohav/mA:?:;^^^^^ thei:j;s:;irtS;itpZ:^r^'^-^^'i-T'r^-^^-"— ^^^ twenty-fourth and lirpoJe^^^^^^^^^ the next day, the Thon. and Mr Lange Smv oS^ ^o I suppose but it must have occurred-that Mr. Honourable Mr Sl^ t o^S .hTcLf h ."''""' T' '"^^ -—"-ted to the desired to have submit!^ to me ''''"' "" '^' ^"^^'^'^"^ ^'^""^ Mr. Garneau Q. Had you occasion to see Mr. Garneau on the subject ' rathe't^,Stthltinn:sTatoccZ '''''''^' "°* «- Mr. Garneau ; I Langelier and Mr Thorn von d hZ ""^ "'' 'T' "'""''""e'^. t^at Mr. Chrv.ost6mn which I had given. ' commumcated to Mr. Garneau the verbal opinion Q. D^ you see Mr. Pacaud on the ,su.,joct of the Baie des Ohaleurs n.atter at the tin.e :' matte; T' '''■ ''""'' '"^ ^'° *° ^°- "^^^ '-P-ting this Baie des Chaleu:. Railway o^^^^^:^::,,:::^.^^ ««- - ^he time, bnt this Infdl'cltZ'mSe^V'^ ""^' ''''' ^^^ ^'''''' ^^ -"-> "P ^ ^- -tt.emont of A. Xo, Sir. ■ Ch,^iZ"*;f °™ '"" """ ""^ "«" """ ■*■ ''"»■». ""■ '«.'«. »nU M. L.J. ('! A. Yes. Q. Now did yon notice thaf Afr r' *ies Chaleurs „>at.er •> ' ^' " ^"'"^"" ^^'■'^s very careful in the so,M A. This is howl noticed if An , • ' '" ^'--^l-.ent ofthis Baie Ch«r]es Lange/i thltt , r'l'-' '""^'^^ '^'"' ^^a.s repla ed '; ^V^"r"^'^■ «^-™'- n,y submitted tt the Com c,', ""^''' "'^''^^ ^^'^^^ '^"y ci w L '^^^^^ "" ''^' ''^*^ «""°"'-ab]e appertained to the IS "'■ "T '^''^-^''^^ ofpatn.nit' '"'"!" ^'^^^'-'i^' to be diiy on which Itrave ihaf v . , ' '" "'^* 'I'tornonn, as far „« r? '"'^V t^"'" were to Honourable CI ar^es T^ ,"" '"P"""" '« ^essr.. Thon 'd A ''""''""^'^^••- "f the same notdisposed.!::::"^^"^"^^''— — tosay Ch:.t l^^ZZ o"^'"'^''' ^'^^ uiiiHoie Mr. Garneau was -1/'/'. Casgniin .-— Rirdon me, but that is hoa-sav n.Vl -de him say that M G .I '^t, 'IT '^"^"^ ^ ^'^"^^ ^a .pe'd ' U^?^ Tm'^ )'e commence to state hi a ,n" fo f" ^- ''''''''' '"thoscttLnent ot^hi; J,!''^ ^^"' mmmmm question. Hearsay' whv th.f ; :,™^ 't is perlectlv reL't.lar • ]^t ^ '^^'^ y ■ wh.> , tl)at ,s all we have been getting sinct 1 Von " '"'^•^'' '^'^ c o ince tne commencement of the % Vr. Casgrain :— I wished to simplifv Mr r-or,,,^ . i tm just about givinir von fho h „ *. "'*, you the reasons, according to my view. i\ • I T78 L J. (.annon Mr, Casgrain : — If Mr. Cannon saw Mr. Garneau let hi.n say so : if he did not see'him, if he has onlv oonversationa which he had with Mr. Charles Langelier, I submit that that is not proof. " Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— That does not establish the fact that Mr. Garneau required it, but a^ far as he is cn- cerned it explains his impression. The witness (continuing his answer) : The Honourable Mr. Charles Langelier come to tell me that M.. Garnean was not disposed to depend solely upon the opinion which I had given as assistant attorn.-vgeieral but as It was a very impf)rtant matt.a- and the Attorney General, Mr. Robidoux, was absent owing to Illness, lie wished that the verbal opinion which I had given in the morninK shoud be corroborated by another advocate, by the Honourable Francois Langelier who usually acted as counsel for the Government. Then I said to the Honourable Charles Langelier "That IS very good, here is the verbal opinion which I gave this morning to Messrs Ihom and Chrysost6me Langelier when they came to my office on behalf of the Honourable Mr. Garneau with the certiticate and the five hundred thousand dollars {$r>QO 000) ot debentures," and I verbally repeated to the Honourable Charles Langelier the opinion - whicn I had given. ■, Thereupon, Mr. Langelier said to me : " That is very good, I will see my brother, the honourable Francois Langelier, and I will see that the Honourable Mr. Garneau's reouest be complied with." Then, the next day, I signed the opinion which is produced before the Commission and which I road just now, and after having signed it, I sent one of tlie employees of the department, Mr. Legendre, to the Honourable Mr. Frangois Langolior's office, and the Honourable Mr. Francois Langelier returned me the opinion with a letter under his signature annexed to the opinion. Q. Consequently, you did not see Mr. Garneau ? A. Xu. Q. And all that you knew of the care which Mr. Garneau was taking was from tim Honourable Charles Langelier ? ^- Yes. Mr. Charles Langelier, at the time, represented the Attorney General in the council, he came to acquaint me officially with wnat was required <.f me as Assistant Attorney General ; and that is what makes me say that Mr. Garneau took great care in the settlement of this matter, because, since I have been assistant attorney general that w.is the only time that similar piecautions were taken when I gave an opinion. Q. Mr. Legendre took the opinion which you had dictated, he brought it to the Honour- able Francois Langelier and brought it back sometime afterw.irds with a letter from the Honourable Franyois Langdier ? A. Mr. Legendre took the opinion which I had signed. Q. Who had dictated it ? A, No, not dictated, which Mr. Legendre. Q. Which he had dictated. _ A. As far as I remember, this is how the opinion was type-written. I have just men- tioned that in the afternoon of the day on which I had given the verbal opinion I repeated that opinion to the Honourable Charles Langelier, when he told me that the Honourable Mr. Garneau wished my opinion to be corroborated by the Honourable Francois Langelior. Thereupon he sa.M ; Very well T ■„ -"====..=^ would see yvheZrZZ \7 '"^'''^''' ^' '^^'^ I'e w„„ui Z? ''^''■' ''***^«*™'-^he he hnd dictate i to M ? ''""^'" "f""*^" winch iodn''t'' ^''^'^ ^'^^^^^^'^^y type-writing an t^Tl , ^'^ 7' °"' "' ^^'^ '^"'P'o ' o T 1! '" " ''"''''' ^"^' "^''^^ took the docum nt r T-' ^"' '^' ^'eparUnont am 1: l'^'^''^""'.^"'' "^>" P»ts into ^^^J^^i-^fz --'--i-;^Briti^-, i" ."e«ti:t':nc:^;: y, As a matter of f'lPt tu^ • • Q- ^Vas It tlie Honourable Chnrl^- r "'^ '^'^^''^ been. y J^"* you see the written diaft ' A I answ.r : " ,v„, t,,,,^ ^ , , ^ ' ' > ' m. L,.g s ature at Us last .session ? " ^ Q- "^011 believe thiit you did'' I; I 780 L. J. Cannon Q. Which says thiit the company should ho reorgiiiiizi.d ? A. No, th(< third proposition dues not say that. Q. The first condition ? A. I answered yes, tliat I had taken these into consideration, and I also had tnken number ihree of the enacting clause of tike Order in Council into consideration, and nunil.ir three of Mr. Thorn's proposal. Q. Mr. Cannon, can you cite to me a statute which allows of the paying to any one a subsi.ly in money, when the subsidy voted is a subsidy in huuls? A. Yes, Sir, 54 Victoria, chapter 88, section 1, sul)-section j. Q. Rend it then, please? A. ynb-section _/. Q. Ye>^. The witiirss reading? ";. To aid in completing an 1 equi{)ping the Biiie des Chaleurs Railway throughout its whole hngth, for the pan not connnencovl, and that not finished, about 80 miles, going Un,i- near G.ispe Basin, a subsidy of U),U00acre8 of land per mile, not to exceed in all 8il(i,(i0("arres payable to any person or persons, company or companies, establishing that they are in a position to cairy out the snid woiks nnd to supply the r(,l ing stock f.,r the whole road and keep It ni good working ordeiVand also up.ni condition that the balaiee of the privilc'ed debts due by the B.iie des Chaleurs Railway Company be paid, the wliolc to the sutisfartidn of the Lieutenant Governor in Council. " Then there is section 7 of th.^ same statute. Taking the section which! have just read, section ],.^ub-8ection; and section 7. and wishing to give an opinicm according to the law, to the best of my knowledge, I thought that that statute allowed it and \liat the evident intention of the law was to allow the Government to convert into money the land subsidies granted to any person or persons who should establish, to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant Governor in Council, that they were in a position to build the road in the tuiiia of the act. Q. Does not section 7 of the act .")4 Victoria, chapter 88, refer to section 14 of the act 51 5'J Victoria, chapter 9L A. Yes, Sir. I thought that it was necessary to interprete that last statute ; to which the section you mention refers mutatis mutandis, taking into consideration the legislation of .last stssion. Q. Now, you will observe that section 14 of the act 51-52 Victoria, chapter i' , says ; ■' It shall be lawful for the Lieutenant Governor in Council to convert, in whole m in part, any subsidy in land, to which any company may be entitled in virtue of this act, into a money subsidy, by paying a sum not exceeding thirty-live cents per acre at the time the said subsidy becomes due, and another sum, not exceeding thirty-live cents per acre, when the lauds allotted to the said company under this act shall have been sold and paid for, pursuant in the rules and regulations of the Department of Crown Lands, and subject to uch conditions to secure the construction of the road, to which the said subsidy shiill apply, as the Lieutenant Governor in Council may establish ; provided that the conipany entitled to any land subsidy under this act shall declare its option, wiihin the delay of two years after the passing of this act, in favor of the said conversion of the said subsidy, by a resolution of its board of directors, duly communicated to the Government througli the Commissioner of Public Works ? " A. Yes, last session | satisfaction i road. Tliat (I And which allows lands that is A. I did justifying the y. Now, and the other control of the certificate of A When 15 is a copy. Q. Did yo A. Person Q. No. I , A. Yes, h( Q- The pe A. Yes,th Council deals v By Mr. Be, Q- Who an A. In the C " We are ir Rfiilway. If the the nianagemen complete the roi Matapetlia to Pa And furthei " Theboaid US follows :— ,Jai Montreal ; .lame persons to be nai That is what ^'ow. I did not coi one taken as adm eented the peraon was rather a niati by Mr. Thom ha question, that was And further t mm ■^- J. Cannon to any one a '*• "^'^^^'Si'-.tliat statute you citPPnv. ,. • '"""""" — iHst sesM-on grarue.1 tl.e same tl n! ?. '' ''*'''"' '" "'« cornpanv \ow f, satis/action of the Lieuto.m^^'^-'P'''^'^"" <"• l"'rsons T V , ^ ' ^''^ statute of road. That is my wayoloL ■''"•'' '" ^^"••">''' 'h' t .Z ." e i •?'"'"'''''• '" '''« wh.ch aliows of the payment of a ^Id •;"''"'''' '''' ^"^*"'- ofthe'p Evince of O. , "^'^s:;t. ,. ..y ., ^'"'-"— ~en it.rr:£;'ij ^"ti:^:-:^s •:- r^ ^"- ------ -^ ... .ted, 15 18 a copy. ' -^ "'^" 'n my hanii<» fn,. „ .•-• * D." ou .„„„ .He „e„„„, „,„„ „, ^ " "'""""" "'*'«>' >^«'">'U K. A. Personally. "™ ^^"- ^'i<"n represented ' Bij Mr. Belque:— Q- Who are the persons mentioned in f h n , • A. In the Order in Council M T, ' ^''''''' '" Council ? I'J Mr. Thorn had oo to, of^ ""°' '""•'"»»''•'■" »heth„,U„ "'"''■ '''■"' And f,„ .l,e,. .h:Xp;e"fJS'«:''" ™ ""■'■■'"■' '» »« ~ ""' "' "" '" 782 P. A. Labadie P. A. LABADIE, accountant of La fianque du Feuple, b recalled and deposes aa follows : By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetli : — Q. You wore asked to produce the deposit slips of deposits made at certain times by Mr. Pacaud ? A. Yes, Your Honour, I have brought the original deposit slips made by Mr. Pacaud, in accordance with the memorandum given me this morning, but upon the memorandum there is an item entered as a deposit which was not one. It was the proceeds of a discount It is the item of fourteen hundred and fifty dollars. I think I have forgotten the memoran- dum that WHS given me Q. Can you explain it? A. Yes. Q. Upon what slip is that ; of what date ? A. The memorandum given me your Honour requires me to produce the slip for an item of fourteen hundred wnd fifty dollars. I no longer remember the date, now, I find that this was not a deposit ; this amount at Mr. Pacaud's credit was the proceeds of a discount, It is for an item i »f fourteen hundred and nineteen dollars and eighty cents, it is the procoeilo of a discount. Hon. Mr. Justice Baby ;—*- Q. Was there no slip? A. No, There was no slip, account. Mr. Hull ;— It passes directly from the discount ledger to the current Has the witness communicated the deposit slips to the Commission. Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti : — The witness does not produce a slip for the item of which he haa just spoken, as it is a discount and not a deposit. It is item 88 24a. Adressing the witness. Q. Will you produce the deposit slips, which you have ? A. Yes, these are the originals. I can leave them. They are marked Exhibit No. 200, Hon Mr. Justice Davidson : — Is th' re any significance to be attached to these deposit slips, Mr. Hall ? Mr. Hall:— Merely to indicate that these deposits appear to have been made, — one in cash and two by cheques, that is to say : in the Exhibit produced by Mr. Labadie, Exhibit No. 2008, under date the Slst March, 1891, there appears to be made a deposit of a cheque of ll,(KH\ The deposit made according to bordereau 200rf, on the 20th April, appears to have been s deposit of $1,000, by means of a cheque. The first one, 200o does not show whether the deposit was in cash or by cheques. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — You have only mentioned two now, a moment ago you mentioned three. Mr. Hal Well, th. By Mr. 1 Q. The fi A. Will J The witn( A. I find Q- It is ir .-• Yes, 01 made out the Q. The sli A. No, the Q- Now, tl was made by c A. It seem Q. And the cheque also. A. Yes, '\i ^y Mr. Bei Q. For wha A, One thot The deposit] noon it is contin 5.V Mr. BHq Q. You are i A. I am accc Q. Have you Iflst, at the Banqi; A. Yes, Sir. Q. Will yoi, J A. I produce Exhibit No. 204. % Hon. Mr. . Q. What is th A, That depos Mr. BHque :~ Q- Two thoui^a A. Yes. % Hon. Mr. J, Q- Will you tel P- A. Labudie Mr. Hall Well, that is an error. There are only two By Mr. Hall:— Th«w,t„e„ examine. n,» s z s;?". t^' ^-^^ p«p- - was n>ade by ch.qu; ? "^'^ '"^^ "^ ^^'^'^^ indicates the amount of H , • A. It seems to be „ cheque ves '''""' ^^"'^'^ ^,^^^Q-nd the deposit on the fourth slip, made on the twentieth of .p., A. Yes. ^.e slip mentions acheque. ' ' " ""''' '' By Mr. BHque :— Q. For what amount ? A, Ono, thousand dollars the V By Mr. BHque:— Q- Will you produce it' % /fora. Tlfr. Justice Jetti :- Q. What is the amount nf ti,„ a A. That deposit Your hI '^^"'^ Mentioned ? I Two thousand five hundred dollars ? ^y «on. Mr. Justice Jetti :- Q- Will you tell us the contents of the slip a« to the other figures ? 784 Edwin Pope A. There is an item of seven tymusaml five hundred dollars 1»hieh seema to be achoquo Out of ihis amount there were withdrawn live thousand dollars which must have been j.aid at the counier to the person who made the deposit, the balance of two thousand five hundr. d dollars waa placed to Mr. Pacaud's cvedit. By Mr. (asgrain: — Q. Have you the cheque in question ? A. I ciinnot say that it was a cl»e(iue, I see that the item is seven thousand live hundred dollars, and I believe that it was a cheque but am not sure. Q. You see on the left of the slip " Cheque " ? A. That is what makes me think that it was a cheque. Q. Have you that cheque in thi? bank ? A. It would be necessary to look before saying that, i '3 difficult to say, as there are no details on the blip to ^how that that cheque was drawn on our bank or another bank. I do not know if it really was a che(iue. Q. You can give us no expl'-nations us to that ? A. I cannot say that it was a cheque, but I have reason to believe that it was. Q. Do you remember having seen it ? A. No. I cai. not say upon what bank that cheque was drawn. And further the deponent sai'th not. EDWIN POPE, Manager of the Grt it North Western Telegraph Companj , recalled, testified as follows : — By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. Have you anything to say. A. I made a personal examination and found that there are no messages for the mouths of March and April. • By Mr, Hall:— Q. Of 1891 ? , , A. Of 1891. By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson : — Q. When did you destroy them ? A. Those for March were destroyed sometime in the beginning of October or September. Those for April were destroyed about the end of October. The exact date I cannot say. Q. Who destroyed them ? A. One of the clerks by my order. Q. Had you received the order from the Commission at that time ? A. No, Your Honour. Q. That only came to you afterwards ? A. That Only came to me afterwards. By Mr. Hall :— Q. Can you tell us the date when you gave the order to destroy these telegrams ? •■*it tMvil Edwin Pope A. I don't remember tho exact date ft i, „ nrdor was g,ve„ belor.- any order «,..« . I ''"'*" '"""er to retain I o„| v t received ,rom t..e Conn^i^i:' t" , 7::^ y^.e Comn.i.ion. and when : / o'^ ^^ .fub-notAt.ril,Mayan.iJu„e_l,na,' ' ''^'"'' ""^■"^''' mos^aKos lor Muv Innl ^ eler^aid^... mes.ag. .. A,:. ^^11;;^;:^'- '^^^^ '^ -d a.ked the'elJr,^ ^ ti. Do you recollect whether thnt „, «. V„„ OKliT w„, give,, „„ J ,t' h. r "■'" ""'"■ A. r '°" ^" '■°" °'^='" '- «»>b„,, ..„„, .,.,„^,„^ ^^^ ^ .» f r^rf "^ -»-on,e «.„,„,„,„. ,, ,,^. ^..^ ^_,__^ ^ . A. VV e were asked to keep copies of th. cop.es for May and June. The ^^l^r^;Z!trT ^' ''"f^^^^-" -'-Ives of the Q. I understood that that had been sm to t T , " *"'^ '^^''^ ' A. I have not received anv . Here is m v n ^f ^™i^l> Companies too ? .8 a km.l ot a search warrant. If we are asked I. f" ^^' "" '"''^^ ^^ "''der as this Tb ^/t. .Tiffins T^i*i . A. 1 nrpailmu tK-^ XI «cic. » 'v.1.1 Q.- w'lTZTr '"■"-"" -^ '■•« '"^-P-e.. o„ .„, .„,jec. .. .,, A. I don't think I can prodnce them. I „„„u .it, , ,, '= '° '■''™ "« '■- '<" '««.*n. ^y //on. 3/r. /«s«c^ Baby :~ If sent to jail you would hiveDlenivaff,- » , A. I am not refusing to produce wha "' ° t'''^^ '^' '°'^"«'-- see how we can produce ver^r^uh The Lr"'?i '"' "''^ «"«^ -" ^^der as this I don't the subject of then, would b^ whTt .e lould wa^;' ^'^ '""^^ '"^ ^^^^ '^^y ^e^Zitll Hon. Mr. Justice Jem ;— ^^j;.odep....„„„,.U. ..it„e„ i. .„.„„,, .„ .„„„ „^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^ _^^^^^^ ^^ 50 786 P. Blouin—P. O. Lafrance PAUL BLOTJIH, of the city of Quebec, advocate and journaiitt, being duly sworn upon the Holy EvnngellBts doth depoae nnd Bay : ( Thi» wUiiesH t» examined upon the special ajyplicaiion of Mr. Caegrain.) By Mr. Caigrain : — Q. Will you take communication of Exhibit No. 195 now shown to you, being a number of the C'owmVr da Canada for the 27th April IS'Jl and state whether, at that date, you saw a certain article, a paragraph m the said Courrier du Canada headed " A Rumor." A. Yes, I read it at the time. Q. Subsequently, did you see in the newspapers any other allusions to the Baie dcs Chaleurs matter? A. Nu, Sir. Q. J)id you not see the Etendard ? A. Nu. Q. Did you see a letter from .1. C. Langelier ? A. Not at the time. Q. Do you know to what rumor that article referred? Objected to by Mr. Beique and objection maintained. Q. Among the public generally at that time, Mr. Blouin, with what was that rumor reported in the Courrier connected ? This proof is objected to by Mr. Beique. Mr, Caagrain : — I am prepared to go furtner. I am prepared to examine Mr. Garneau and to prove by him that that was one of his reasons for his hesitating and that the bearing of that article was generally known. Mr. BHque :— Certainly, if you wish to examine Mr. Garneau on this point you may do so. You have already made other attempts of the same nature. Mr. Justice Jettl : — We think that it is better not to allow the question, all the more so that you can examine Mr. Garneau as to the fact. And further the deponent saith not. P. G. lAFRANCE, Cashier of La Banque Nationals being recalled doth further depose as follows : By Mr. Beique : — Q. You are the manager of the Banque Nationale ? A. Yes I am the cashier. 'mkiM "• G. Lifrance 787 Q. On thH third of July iMt vn., „i i --' -=' A. I (Jo not remember Jinvinc . • i .il * '^*^ '" P"r'8- le. At whose request ? A. Mr. Facaud's. Q. Who8uppliodthomoneyto«endu' A, Mr. P.icuid piiid me the funds Q. What were the values given lo you bv \fr i. A. It was not altogether isHooo. The exae^ al T'"-'.'' *^''' ^''"«- wh>ch we sent by cable. I, was paid. "'"""' f""'' '^^^ *^-«7«.0o for 25m francs y. Do you know whether I hM nm » A. I know that Mr. Pacaud paw'tha IZ '"'l' ''''"■ '''*°'*"'' '" ^'^"k notes ? .ny own knowledge. ^"'' *^"' '^"'«""' ^>tl' Banque du Peuple note. It i, to A. He paid at the counter M« „i ^ °" "" '"" """ "' """' "" '■»«« « .b. ti. In Banque du Peuple notes ' A. Yes. tiate ,ny '|oterrt2o";^^^^^^^^^^^ ';;j^^ J went to the Banque Natiouale to nego excellent he had no doubt, but that the ba k wa ^l , ! T' '"''''''', ' "''''"' "^ ^im w'; «um : I then said to Mr. Lafrance : I will meet v^ „ "„ k . °""' '"^^vance me such a large Mercer. Mr. Mercier left me ^000 b orTh we .t a ^"!f ^ ^ ^"^^ ^''"^^ '« «end to Mr these $.5,000 by a draft on th. Credit Lyonni at Pari '^' ""^ '■' """ ^^"^^ ^' '° -"d hii' your draft will not return from Paris betbre ont m '. '° ^■°" J"" ^'""'"^ "^ draft for $5 oi togzve me $o,m. I will keep Mr MerlieXT.Z ' ".' ''"' '"'' ^^'" ^^'^ '" 'act have' ot next month, you will only havoto T™? > ' ^''"' draft not returning before thVfir ? missory note on the 18th oahir^nr ;orw;:^:^"""'f '^«- ^^^v, I owfyVu a pt vanced *10,000 to me at once withou havC ^^T Z''' "°''^' «° ^'^^^ -'" have'al conversation between yourself and Mr. Sd ' '"^'''""^- ^° ^^^ ^^^^ember that A. Something like that, yes Pacaud told me that we would^ave n y abou ^Co?" r V'"' ' ^^^^-^^ ^hat Mr. " we were obhged to cover our cheques whid'^ dZ^" p.'nf ""^^ "^ '^^ ""' '^ink that Q. You are obliged to cover them . soon as they are drln here P A NoV' "*^" "•' *'"" '^^''^^ *« ^^^- P--d ? A. iNo, because when we draw on Pari, «,„ our bankers. ^"^ ^^"«' ^^ <=over at once if we have not the fu.ds at 'iir 1 788 E. Pacaud Q. Was Mr. Vallitn? present during that ccmveisation ? A. It ia probable that Mr. Vallifere wa-. there, especially if it was discount day he was there. Q. Do you remember that Mr. Pacaud spoke in about that sense ? A. In aV)out that sense. Q. You believe that he did not correctly catch what you t^aid ' A. No, well. ..I did not explain to Mr. Pacaud that we were obliged to cover our account. Q. You did not think it necessary to correct Mr. Pacaud's impression ? A. No. By Hon. Mr. Justice Jettt : — Q. Will you state, as well as you can remember, the explanations which Mr. Pacaud gave you at the time when he asked you to discount the note for $20,000 to induce you to give him the discount by telling you that it would fiici.itate matters for y(,u, as you could oi..y have $10,000 to disburse, for such and such reasons? A. I do not very well remember any other discussion on this subject than what came before the commission that he had a sum of $5,000 which he had to reimburse, and a note wliich WHS due on the 18th I believe or some days afterwards. He asked me for a draft on Paris for the equivalent of $5,000 also. Q Was there any question of-Mr. Mercier's money which he had in his hands to cover that draft? , , .v, . A. I do not remember that he told me anything in thnt sense. I am persuaded that Mr. Pacaud did n..t tell me tliat he had funds belonging to Mr. Mercier at the time. Q. There were other reasons which he gave you ? A. Yes. In asking for the discount, he gave as his reason that we would have less money to disburse by seniling a draft on Piuis, and by paying that note, the note for $5,000. And further the deponent saith not. ERNEST PACAUD, advocate and journalist, being recalled, deposes as follows :— By Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti :— Q. You have already been sworn? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Have you had time to examine the statements which I h:mded to you this morning? A Not yet. I could not procure a printed copy of the statements which I produced until two o'clock, and I have not had time to verify them. I will du it during the course of the evening and to morrow raoining I will be able to state to the commission whether I consider it is correct. By Mr. BHque .•— Q If you have no objection, Mr. Picaud, will you produce the note which was maile out on one of the signed blanks which Mr. Mercier left with Senator Pelletier before leaving for Europe, and which yuu refused to produce, after having exhibited it however to tlia commissioners ? E. Paatud 789 A. I have no objection to produce that not,. ;c r v . -^--- -^- ■ the consent of Yo.n- Honours .Mrte.l^^n. 1 ' ll ""^""'^'^^ '^ •'^^ "-'- ''» --with not been paid with the B.,!.. des Cl.aleu s l.e h . ' r\ ""' '""'^ '''^^ '''^' ""^« '-^ to the .afsfoction of Your Honours •/ 1^"'""^' """ P'""'' ^'th other money, ^■i^UKithntI«houldpr,Kh.eeit,hen.iti; I '^ '"' "'■^^""''^^'•^tandinK and as it s E^ibitlfo.205,apronnVsor/n<;:da. il ' S,;;;t ^.^^^^i* ^o. 205. I produce as e.gned l,y „,y«ur. and endorsed by Honouml inln ' !v'r" '''"' '"^ ''^■'^ ^''"^'«''"'<' ^'""^-^«' Lan«eher,th,,.IIonourahl.. Mr. Pelletierth? ff 7, ^^''''''' t'"' "'^nourable Charles c^ueatonen.uth.dateandpaidatrx-:!;;,;!™;;:';;::;;;;;;!^ T^"i!r"' '' '"™''* ^^ "''"'-^'«i^"^ s;:i;;r ; """"-^^'"^ ^^• me, marked ExhfbTtsTeX 98 aSs^^^^^^^^ ^''^ 'h^'^e e-'^l'ibits .hown left, with the Honourable Sena^Sftl^; ^^^^:^::^'J:t^:^^ ^^'- ^^"^^^ '-" Q. To your knowledge, were thoro Jv,.,.^ i were so left, by the Hon^.^bll^l^rS^X w^htnlf ;S:;^:r "^ ''''''' ''^'''' ^^'^^ the ^^s or2r;;i^h:^:z r ir srnr;r ^t ^^^^ ^° --- -^^-^- ^^ March, they were under the in.pre.sion It >, T'"' ""^"'^'^'^ «" ^^^^ ^^h of but on the ninth of March. I J notT en lorsTd wl T7. "? '^^'' ^^''^ ''""^ endowed of April a«idia not rec,uire 'these ^>i:^t!::^,tnl^'"'?:?V^' ^"-^^ -^' ^^-nth meet bills maturing on the fir.t and fiftee Vth o? An ^., "I'^'^^J «h»"'^' 'equire th.m to Igot notes endorsed dated the first and imeeuth of nri 1. iV^ l'' °" "'" "'""^ '^^ ^arch Beemg the notes of the first and fifteenth of C thatch !''''' ''^"' '''^^' '^""gh»' «" the Honourable Mr. Mercier, a. Mr. Merc eH on th i.r^t '? '"^" ^'^ "'^^^ '^'^ ^^^ Mr. Mercer and the other gentlemen of the hlf ,? ? ? '^^'"■°^- ^ ""'« endorsed by they were taken for signed blanks It ;;it^^^^^^^^ were seen and been endowed on the ninth of March. J^i^Z^l^Z '!:^:'Z^^:^::S::,^Zl ^^ Q. You liave .tued ihM ihere „or<, three -erio, of,,,,,,, , fiy Mr. Casgrain :— Q. What was done with the proceeds of that note Exhibit No. 205 tion :^rS;;^X;i:s:ss:"ii;;rr ;:r rf- ^-^^-^ ^- -^^^^-^ ^^ «'-. accounts, or for deposits for election com /at o^ ^''T^^'^' either for election dates when r made the different dTposittuiri ^ "" r'' '""' ''^^^^^^S »« ^^e contestations. ^°'"'' ^"^ " ^'^''' "'"'^'"^'l to make deposits for election Q. Will you give us Che dates of the deposits you made for election contestations. ■r •790 E Pacavd A. I already answered that question as far as I was able ; I gave a list of the statement which I kept of nine deposits for election contestations forming if 10,000, which I had made up to the tifteenth of April ; on tho fifteenth of April I had a statement prepared which I produced, I had it prepared by my secretary. Q. You are mistaken as to the tifteenth ; there were no deposits on the fifteenth, the deposits were made on the twentieth in the District of Quebec. A. Whether the deposits were made with the prothonotharics at other dates,! declare that on the tifteenth of April, I could have handed the deposits, to the parties interested in the election contestations ; any way, I did not personally make the deposits in the prothonot>)ry 's office, in the L'Islet contestation I gave the money to Mr. Casgrain Q. What Mr. Casgrain ? A. Mr. P. B. Casgrain; whether Mr. Ca-.grain only made the deposit, afterwards, I do not know ; on the fifteenth of April it appears by the ntatement which I produced, that at that time I had made nine deposits, in election contestations. Q. Will you take communication of Exibit No. 195, which is a number of the Courrier du Canada, and state whether you at that of the 27th April, or a iew days afterwards had seen the paragraph headed " a Rumour " in that paper, and state whether you spoke of it to any one ? A. Yes. j Q. You saw it at the time ? A. Yes 1 well remember having read it. Q. Did you speak of it to any one ? A. I do not remember having spoken of it but remember very well having read it. I romeinl-er it nil the more that it struck me— I read it. Q. Did you draw any one's attention to it ; did you not say to :■■' me one ; you see how your newspapers are beginning to make a noise ab^ut that, try and stop it ? A. I do not lemenibir. It would have been nectssary for me to speak like that to a political adversary, and I remember nothing at all of the kind. The only person to whom I would have spoken at the time would have been my chief editor Mr. Barthe, if I spoke of iti but from the ordinary course of things he is the only person I believe that I would have spoken to. I remember I wiw it and it struck meat the time. Q. I will tell you someting that may perhaps remind^ycu. Mr. Garneau had said to you ■ " but what are we going to di, to defend ourselve.-i in our newspapers when they attack us for this " au^^« f"'" ^^ to that on the 9th of March. If Mr. Pacaud nos't.llt; fr" .m "'"f ''^*''' ^^at we had signed fifteenth of April, Your Honour I Z have 5 , ' ' ^'^ ^^''^ '^'"^ °" ^^e first and morning, that I found that the n^ttrwiidrwor H "'■'"" *° '^ •""'^'^'^" ' "« ^ '^^^ «^i« had been left in n,y care merely by t'e dates ir^^JJu^'"'''''' '''''''''''' ^^^^ and used it for something else I coukl not rPnTn.! ^ l '^ *"°'' ''^''^ ^ «'S"''^» blank her paper, because it was merely a bhnkjr' J' "' impossible for me to remem- I remember that to the qucSn;otasUe7me^'^^^^ ""'''''' ^'™''^ ^'^ "--«• these notes than by the dates I said hat Th H ' 1"' ^'*' """^'' '"^'^"« ^^ identifying ning by the date, vvhich M ll d^n '; ' '"'r \ "^"^ "^^ •-" "-taken this mor' ninth of March. The date which he a W ".I f'^ ""'es were signed or endorsed on the have c.m.nitted. -I'tervNards tdled u.. occasioned the error which I may a: ?s rih! j^ESd 111; i7tr r^'i^" ^^^ ^- -^'^^^ -- ^ than the date. I had no othe a "l I h Z on ul f ^" T'" '^'' '''^"^^'^'"^ '^« "o'^s paper upon which the end.rsement w.,s giZ "'°'''"*^ '^"" '"^ *« ^•^"'=°S">'=^ the Q. You remember that there were thrp^ « r^^^ ..c ., . A. I remember that on three occasion, wo « ' '"*u°"* ^^'"^ '^^''^••• elections, the second time on the .rolTa h a. • tTe thi ?' ''' T *™*^ ^"^ ^^^^^ *^« I remember that on the 9th of MarPhT '' """^ "'^ '•«"e^' '''^"ks. second series. The last w.- ^ i^^t:l:^^T' 1'"^ T"""'"' ^^^' -« '^e request. ^ '"''^' "^^ich we endorsed 1 ter at Mr. Pacaud's By Mr. Casgrain ;— Q. Can you say how many notes were endorsed on the 9th of March ? iiu.j^t^urn^ti:i^sr'rt^:t:rr ^"' "^^s ' r^^^" -^^ -■• ^ ^-^ - rememberhavingsigned tvror\ iree ,0^1 ^^'^t'' ^"' "^ '" say how many. I tb -■ Miere were more. ' ^ '^' '^'"''"-^ '^^ "°* remember. I do not believe •792 L. J. Riopel Q. Signinp; or endorsing noteH for $5,000, seems to me to be a matter that one should remember ? A. I d( dare that I had reason to believe that the notes I then signed would be placed in the hands of persons who would not abuse my signature. Q. Who would pay tlieso noteis? A. I do not say that us we had agreed that if it were necessary to pay them, each would pay his share. I snid so this morning. Q. Whenever Mr. Pacaud went to you to ask you for one of the signed blanks, except •when he went with Mr. Charles Langelier for the last one, did lie always tell you that it was for election contestations? A. Yes, it was for that that we bad Mr. Mercicr's signature. i^. Now wliat did he do with them. A. I never saw them since. Q. You cannot say whether there were more than three that were left with you? A. I said in my deposition befoic the Senate that tin re were three or four; I said this morning, that to the best of my knowledge there were four, but I cannot swear positively — as I said before the Senate and this morning my impression was that there were four, I may be mistaken. I remember that before the Senate they wanted me to state the exact num- ber, I said three or four, but I coulji not swear to it, Q. Do you know where these notes were endoreed by the Honourable Mr. Mercier? A. At his house. And further the witness saitli not. L. J. BIOPEL, of the City of Quebec, Esquire advocate, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists doth depose and say : — {Examined at his own request). By Hon, Mr. Justice Jette : — Q. I understand that you wish to produce a document ? A. Yes, Your Honour, I desire to produce the reply of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company to the report of Mr. Langelier special commissioner, dated the 26th February 1890 respecting the company and its contractors. The reply is dated the 30th December 1890. Q. That document is genuine and is really the reply that v/as prepared ? A. It is a true copy of the reply which was forwarded to the Lieutenant Governor. And further the deponent saith not. "Mr. A. Turgeon, advocate and M. P. P. addressing the Commission. Your Honours, my name has been mentioned in connection with item 88-65 I would ask the Commission for permiwion to give some explanations on the subject, ■4 Turgeon Hon. Mr. Justice Jetii .-— eg,nmng of the year, when I Q. At the beginning of this year? A. Yes. ■**6ife;»%*yi«&iii«»!i»js 796 Denis Leduc A. No, not exactly ; it was rather tlie duty of the oumpaiiy's engineer. Q. Who was the company's one:ineer? A. '''r. Light. Q. Was Mr. Light solely the company's engineer or did he act in any other capacity ? A. Mr Light also acted as iiispoctor for the Local Government. Q. Now, as a matter of fact, whatever your duties may have heen, from what you have just said. Wiis it not you who prepared the estimates of the work done for the construction of the road? A. Yes; it was I wh) prepared all these estimates ,Mr. Light having no assistant.— wliy I know not — I hegan by preparing the first estimates and went ou doing so until the end of the work. Q, Being the engi leer o'' the contractor and builder of tlie road, your certificate would naturally have no value except with him? A. Only with h"in, Q. Now what was done wiin those, to whom were they sent ? A. What cprtificntes ? Those between the contractoc and the company ? Q. The certificates that you prepared yourself ? A. I prepared them for the company and also for the sub-contractors, the estimates for the company I made in duplicate and sent them either to Mr. Armstrong or Mr. Light to get them signed by Mr. Light and sent to Mr. Armstrong, one copy being kept either by the company or by Mr. Light, I am not sure which. Concerning the sub-contractors' estimates, I made them for the sub-contractors when they were asked and needed to made a settlement between the firincipal contractor -nd the sub-contractors ; I made tliem according to the contract; if they had a right to an estimate every month they were made every month? Q. The estimates made for the sub-contractors were of course, so that tLey could settle claims against the company or the contractor itself ? A. Against the chief contractor. Q. Then the estimates which you prepared for the company were those which ought to have been made by Mr. Light and which you made instead of him ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. And therefore you sent them to Mr. Light to sign ? A. Yes. Q. It was his signature which authenticated these estimates as regards the company ? A, Yes, Your Honour. Q. Mr. Light was instructed I suppose to look over your certificates and estimates ? A. I suppose so, he ought to have had these instructions from the company ; I know nothing about it ; only that Mr. Light usually signed them without making any change. Q. That is to your personal knowledge ? A. Ye.", Your Honour. Q. That he signed your certificates without making any change in them ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Now these estimates thus examined and certified by Mr. Light for what purpose were on these certificates that the subsidies were afterwards paid to the company? Denis Leduc 797 regnrds tl.e estimates he gave the Gnvenmien ho Z i ^''''•' ''"" ''' '''''' *''''"*^™' '•'«"« '« the work and based his estimate, on that th'i U T.T' "'«P^<^t'o» I'imsdf passing, .ver to be " question and that being due, acLrdiil'Mr.lTg"htl'rer;'^!ea;LT'"'' '""^ '^""^'^'^''^ble sums, mentioned as A. Yes, Your Honour. .he,irr:izrt';!^T:;sr::7T''^ ^ *• "«^' "°™ »'«« Mr. Lfgh. .r, .h„e prepared bv ,';„,,,,;:i™lp":„°:::,";;^' hLl""" """ ""'"■="" »' A. They are estimates prepared by mo. Q. And approved by him ? mg on the edges and bottom of the page. "^''^'" ''*'^- ^''^'-e is writ- Q. The signature only assents to what is written in type ? A. Yes. The sum certified by me is $1,260,635.,52. Q. Now the estimates which you made so a^ tn ..;«. ♦k ... of work <,„„ « „e .i,„e whL th.tl"^ rreSir^CeT-' '"'^ '"'""■ A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Will you state on what bases you made these certificates .inn^!fr;rirf:r:^:J:^---ed a list o^ prices .om the b. prices, and later on I received a communiclt.We the? f" Z"' f *"""'"' ^''''^ «" '^^'^ telliing me that the company was not Tti eT^ th the stThf. h""^'""'"^ '^'' '"^ ^'^'h- another list upon which I was to base my estTmlies. "''"^"'^'^ P''"^^^ '»"d enclosing me Q. Now in what way would these prices affect the valuation you had to give ? A. All the different items of the estimate wore fiTPrl of n„ » • .he.e*.s:.iet™T.r<5rrt:r.:z;:/r °-iY »• ^-^-^ ^- "- i° cerlificatee wro given ? ', "' "» »'»* <"»»» "' «>» time when the iMhe con.,«,,„r,L3ti:nLe„C"y "' '™ """ """*"""«' 798 Denis Leduc Q. That is to say, the contractor said ; I shall do such and such work for such a price ; as soon ns the work wts done you ceitified that it was done and that according to his con- tract he had a right to such an amount. Is not this so ? A. Yes Your Honour. Q. It was then understood that the works being done, the amount was due in virtue of the conditions of the contract. A. Yes, Your Honour, that is the case. Q. Now Mr. Light stated in his evidence yesterday that in the certificates that voii had given for the works done, the price of these works or their value had been increflsed by forty or fifty per cent. I should like to know what explanation you have to give about this assertion. A. li W.US not my business to increase the estimates. I simply took the preliminary quantities of the work to be done on the whole line, to the extent of one hundred miles, and arranged the'jirices as far as I could tell, to give a cost of twenty thousand dollars a mile. Naturally do to this there wa-s a gjnd deal of experimenting but I succeeJed in time. For example to arrive at a price for the diflerenl materials to be furnised or different works to be done... take for example finding a price for the earth work, I arrive at a price of 40cts per yard for the contractorV price. Now tl. price for earth excavation for the contractor, included the cost of rock excavaftion rather, of loose rock, and also included the excavation of what is called hard-pan, that is hard material in greater quantities than is reckoned for the sub-contractor who has a price for earth only ; but in the contractor's estimate all these quantities are included under one heading namely '' earth excavation ; " and so also forilie other difl'eient kinds of materials and works. Q. The object of the question— I ask you, is to find out if,— taking into considerati' n, the works done and the circumstances under which they were done, or in fact everything to arrive at the value of the works done in the construction of the road, the certificates which you gave were conformable with the actual value * f the works, taking into consideration the prices stipulated in the contract ? A. Certainly. Q. So that is there was no fraudulent augmentation of the amount of the value of worK done. A. That is the estimates were made in conformity with the contract price of twenty thousand dollars ($20,(KX)) per mile ; but if the contractor succeeded in sub-letting these •works at a much cheaper rate, naturally there was a profit. Q. The result would be that the contractor would have made a good bargain ? A. Certainly. G. Then on the bases upon which you made these estimates, this figure of one million and odd was quite correct and represents a true claim ? ^ A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. It is the amount to which Mr. Armstrong was entitled under his contract ? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. And the work done under this contract? A. Yes, Your Honour. Q. Then tlie diflerence of thirty three per cent which Mr. Light mentioned in his •deposition would simply be the profit W 'ch the contractor made out of the sub-contractor •or out of the company ? "> 'i H, Henis Leduc 799 A. As r.gards the estimates made f.,r th.. a,.i t.un all the work done ; there were ce tl n Zk^aZTT' """ ^'"''"'^'- ^« "«' -"' tliey were the mo.t .lilficnlt and most expensive ^ " ^ontiactur himseli; and orten Q. Which would make a great difference in the price ' A. I have myself known of many excavatinn.. ^.v.- u cents per yard, and the «ub-contnu.tL o r ^reitEr.' T ""'"^'^' '^"^ ^'^^" °"« ^""^^'ed «nd twenty-f ve cents per yard for the ma tlr £ w n ?''' *^^"»>-'^«- twenty-four large quant.ties ninety and one hundred cen ' ^riar , J t^^ T, '"' ''' "°"^^'^'='- '" m.les, the sub-contractors who di.l the first Tori T ^^ ]" "^""'^ ''°"''°" '^e first twenty left « great quantity of work which wadfceoX'T ", '"'"" '' ^'' ""'^^-' = ^^^ey railroad work than to bngin it, for railroad co actors ll'u ""'" '^''"'^"'* "" «-«h the beginnmg is the easiest part. ^loniractors are generally inclined to think that A. I did not take that into consideration .if oil v contractor', estimates to serve as a bit rest ,:L!i;t""r' ' '"^" '°°'' ^^« -^- pany ; I snnply used the contract. '-^"'nates butv.een the contractor and the com- Q. According to the contract prices ? A. According to the price of the contract. By Mr Vasgrain :~ A. Ihat schedule was not prepared by me bnf xvn= wk ■ ' sent down below to me. ^ ^ ^"' ''"^ ^"^«'' ^i^^n to me in Montreal or Q. By Mr. Armstrong ? A. By Mr. Armstrong. uj, " "" "''' "»' "" '««- «■» Prtce. you „.„«„„., i„ .,, ,,„;„„..„ ^„_, ^^^^ ^^ A. Yes. Q. Where are they ? .n;tSZry;S-^::!r;^t?iS:;t or cane- papers, gave orders to the draughtsmanTut w s i Hhl / .t™^.''-^"^ «^"* 'or all hi, papers, which ought to be in M^.real ; 'no^I I "f k^r; ^Lte^thrarr ""' "" '^^ ^""^ Q. They may be in Mr Armstrong's possession ? A. I think so ; I don't know. If"'' m V wmmmmmmmmmmmmm 800 Denis Leduc By iff. BHque .— Q. D(j I umleMtiuul that you prepared the estimates proiluccd as Exhibit 181, from A toG, on Exhibit 180? A. Yes; these estimates were prejiared by me or under my direction. Q. You said that Exhibit 180 was sent to you by Mr. Armstrong ? A. 'Hiat is the Mt^cind coi)y of prices ; I had at first prejiare.l the first copy of prins myself and I was told that Mr. Light was not sati.stied witli the arrangement of the pricin ; then he made S'-me changes, trifling changes, I tliinli, in the bridges; I considered the change of no groat importance. Q. And Exhibit 180 was prepared so as to give efiect to the changes which had been made by Mr. Lii;ht ? A. No, the first had been made by me, the other by Mr. Light. (4. This Exhibit No. 180 was prepared in accordance with the changes demanded by Mr. Liglit ? A. I was told 80. Q. At any rate was this statement produced as Exhibit No. 180, in accord at least in substance, with the estimates you yourself had already prepared ? A. Before this document was sent to me. Q. Yes. A. Not altogether. Q. What difference wsis there ? A. Very little, the difference was slight ; all the more as the estimates at that time did not amount to a very large sum, not more that f 5()0,' q"e«tion. I left with work t,. do; he h obliged to re.mir h rl .' '''"'^ ""' ""b-contract;, i.s always must .nako a pro.it nut of tlie srbS acto s H '"" '^ '" °"^«^' ''"•"■«q "ent ly h' besules ho ha. to pay interest there LelZil^'r ^' ^'^"''' '"«« """ey by ft the u.ual su. Which the chief eo^trarriei^r r^^^^^^ Mr. Casgrain .- ^ ^^ '^^ «»b-contractors. The contracts are there and anooU c »i as to the profits of chief contrac.r'toVrc'nrr:.. ' '"^ '"^^^^ ^'"^' «---' -idence strong ,s bound by his contract with the co^n ,d ^V.'" ^"^'^ ''"^ ""'^^'- ^r. A^! sub-contractors. compnnj and by the contracts ue made with hi, Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .- ■ We are disposed to allow the evidenpp t By itfir. Beiqiie : ■ Q. What profit does the chief contractor usually make out of th k A. iHhould say about twenty per cer.t. -'b-contractors? Q- Is this net profit, or dops it inr^ln i » i chief contractor lias to make ? ' ' '"^' '" P""'' "^^ain expenditure which the •hen h, i, obliged ,„ mak, ,11 °p»l„ 2°L / f '" f^ ^^f'""' '"' ""« <» '«"" ye.™ t«*™ which .„,„..,>,e. .mo„ro".z,He„b ;:::''• r" '" ""' •"'" •"• "*«"»•' of ...= B.,e d„ Ch.l.„„, where .he iVe.h... clZ :Z,.£:'JTZ:^,^ '" "■« ■»» .nd Ltntr/hX:r '- •-'■ -P^- •» ^»r « „i„, ,h, .n.i„,„d»„gh..„.„ ™n.,de,.ble eums when the work go,, on L » ,o„g 1^* ' """ '°""'"™" "■,,„ .re ver^ 51 802 Denis Leduc Q. Do you remember to have sent Mr. Light estimates which had been prepared for the sub-contractors? , t ^ -j i .i,„t A I do not recollect having ever sent him those estimates, because I cdnsidered that he had nothing to do with then., as they were estimates between the sub-contractors and the chief contractor. , , ^ x i Q. In any case, the estimates you prepared for work done by the «ub-contractors only covered a part of the actual work done ? A. Only the part done by the sub-contractors, and I do not think there was one who comyileted liis contract. Q. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. J. J. Macdonald ? A. I did not hear it, but I have seen some particulars of it. Q. Did you notice the estimates given by Mr. Macdonald ? A. Yes, I noticed them. Have you prepared a statement based upon the figures given by Mr. Macdonald, so SBtoshowwhatwastheamountof Mr. Armstrong's claim, taking us a basis the figures given by Mr. Macdonald ? A. Yes, I have prepared a little memorandum. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— 1 think this is going too much into details. Mr. BHque : — I think that this statement is very clear and not wanting in importanoe. This statement iB based upon the $742,000 mentioned by Mr. Macdonald, and it would appear that th-s sum Jenrrened eighteen thousand five hundred and odd dollars per mile and upon these figures MrArmstrong'B claim, taking the debentures at seventy-five cents should have been reduced to only two hundred and twenty five or three hundred thousand dollars. Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson :— It seems to me that vou ought to be satisfied with the witness' evidence ; he tells you that he has honestly certified the estimates, and he gives you his figures. , Mr. BHque :— The reason why I ask the question, is because Mr. Macdonald has allowed it to be uhJtoo^ She considered the price too high, and he has perhaps allowed it to be under- Z^Io that no very considerable sum was due to Mr. Armstrong. This is simply a action ot figures, and I think it is somewhat important to recapitulate these figures of Mr. CdonaS and compare them with those mentioned in Mr. Armstrong claim. I think I have nothing else to do but to submit to the Comn.is.ion what is of a nature to thriw light on the proof. I am content to put this statement before Your Honours Laving H?o th« Commission to decide whether it ought to be produced or not. I hink th the statement is of a nature to dissipate certain suspicions which may have resulted Irom the evidence of Mr. Macdonald. n ■! J. Dents Leduc Hon. Mr. Justice Jetti .-— ITr. B6ique ;— mtie^tr j„:r r iLrxr"°" ^" ^'^ '•^™- ^ ^^-^^^ ^^^^ producon or this Q. In reference to ^Zl7 '"'^ '°''^'^^" '^°"«^"d dollars ($742,000). A. To the construction of the List f„rty miles Q. This would represent how much per mile" A. E>ghteen thousand five hundred and fifty dollars per mile y. Well, taking the figure of eiffhtPOMth 7- ^"" "'"e. (llS^f ^XtS.tt^Cr:t.= -enty-fi.e dolla. of Mr. Armstrong would be reduced toLo 1 unTed and ".H? '''"'^*^""'^ P"''^' ^^e claim ^"d forty-three dollars and eighty-seven cen^S 443 87 "^"""^ *^°"^"°'' ^°"' hundred Q. How do you make out that this fisurp mvraL " , • , A. Because I take the total amoum t^ . J w.th the Macdonald price ? making a sum of nine hundred and six houldVn'/f ^^'^ "" *'^« «>•«' si -^ty miles hundred d.ll.rsXf 15,100.00) per XX^ZTJ^'^ }''''''''^ ^ «f'«- thousLd one (H900.00) per mile payable in debenture^ which at r'^T"' '""^ '""'^^^^'^ ^«"-r« thousand SIX hundred and seventy-five dolla;m 67. nm'"'-!"'^''' ^'' ''«"* gi^^s three thousand seven hundred and sevLty five ^iSf Slg^^ -akingatotal of eighteen amountbeingeghteenthousandfivehundredarfi fvH r iPo'' ™'''- ^'- ^^^edonald's Tl-en, I take the amount of eighteenTol" /^ t" ^*^^'^'^'^-'^) «" the forty miles (118,775.00) and obtain the sum ofon "mill rLe"hl\od"'"/;"' -venty-five'dollaTs hundred dolla.3 ($1,126,500.00) for the 60 uTe. l^Z t f t*^«"ty-six thousand five SIX hundred and ninety-th-ee dollars and ZhfV """' ^' ^' ^^^ ^' ^rty-eight thousand hundred and thirty-one thousandXrL £ :n7frru^'^ ' "^"^^ «^-"wo cents (12.1,443.87) due Mr. Armstrong, in n^X t^Z^fZ'^'^'' ^"' ^^^'*^-«^-° (II8,?75'i);TsbLt/^""' ^'^'*^^" *^«"-"^ -- hundred'and seventy-five dollar A. Yes. .ix.iltlhfiS';„t r" '"*• '" "^'" ""^■""■' '• «>« -* on .h, ro.., r„„. .,, A. The work is very far advanced T th; i- t\. Q.H«v» the other twenty mile, yet to be locted' « the beginning of the „„ '"'"'"""°° "«"««? 'o gi.o ont the contract in g,H»i time 1' ' 3 1 " J ' 1 . 1 ', i ' wl 804 Denis Leduc road? A. Yes. Q. Did they work day and night ? A. On certain works, yes. By Mr. Casgrain :-— Q. When did the new company took possession of the road ? A. I think in the month of July. Q. The end of July ? , A. The middle, t in . M^^donald's offer comprised the building of the line r^^'^hSieu/r.ror. rar'S.htreV pu„i„« the r^^ first to the sixtieth^^mile ? Q." Jow, you estimate the debentures at seventy-five cents in the dollar ? A. Yes. Q. Without the Government guarantee ? A. With the Government guarantee. Q. With the Government guarantee ? O ' Ind inhere were no Government guarantee, the debentures would not be worth that ? T T nnt Pxr.ress any opinion as to the exact value of the debentures in that case, but t\hir Ir^rthe^Goverament guarantee they would certainly be worth seventy- ^'' Twhat is the cost of the Government guarantee, when the Government guarantee. ihfi interest on clehi-ntures ? t . ■ * .u . T d,m't remember the exact amount. I did know it because I went into that „,attt wllrMr Drolet. when there was some question of it in Europe ; I knew it at the time, but at this moment I have forgotten it. Q. Is it not forty-two cents on the seventy-five ? A. I do not remembtr the figures. Q. About that, Mr. Leduc ? A. 1 cannot say, I don't remember. Q. You don't remember ? A. No. G. Grenier~J. C Lan^elier 805 was sent or Q. You said a moment ago that this 'RvViJhif v„ ion u i i request. Do you know yourself p'n onalK ,t f . 1^0 had been pr-pared at Mr. Light's A. I do not say that it w.s at M tir ' f ^^'^ ^'^^'''' '"''^"^'^^ ' was prepared by m'yself, Luthe e ond'' vv ! '''""' ' / "^^ '^"^ '''' ''''' -h^'^"'- "'^ P"«- there; I do not know if Mr. L ght wl h^ ■""'"'"'^ '" ''^'"'''''^ ''^'''' '^'- ^'^P^' given to ane as being the .schedule a.'pn.ved by m/i i^t ' ' ''"""'' ''''"'"" ''^ '" Q. And that is all you know ; you did not see Mr. Light ' of tht?o ml ''''' '" ""'' ^"'™^^^^^ '"-''^ -^^' ^h-° P"-. Mr. Light made n,. objection Bij Mr. B6ique ;— Q Oi'glit tlio forty miles from the sivfJnfh .^fi price per „,;ie, „„•„„ L„,,, ,, T,™ ,!,;":* L;!™ °"" *""'"""'' '° "°" "'■»"' ""= »-» A. a-he ..,„. o™.. .„c„„,i„, „, . „„„ „„ ^„„„;„^^ .„„^ ^^_, ^,_. _^ _^^^ ^^^^^^^__ ^^ me. And further the deponent saitli not. J5.V Mr. Casgrain :— Q. You have already been sworn ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Will you take communication of Exhibit Wn 9f»9 ,.,].» , , forms of the oath of offiee taken by memberof he eSmv. P " T''^'"' '''"'' '-^''^ '^« A. Yes, Sir. ^ Executive Councd on sissuming office ? Q. These are the forms in English and French ' pe„o„ who .„. „„ dep.rri„':r:;' uS ti^rh^rX.' '"■ ""' """"" °'°'"™- ^ bei„Jl*^„:;SfSe"f firf '^"^ •""«•• »"" ^"^-"' P-inoU, p.,.„„, % ifow. Mr. Justice Baby .•— Q. Will you produce the document you were asked for? A. I have not got them, Your Honour, I have the beginnin-^ here this i. no^ here is a part of it, the balance is almost as much again I am^ !n ! ""^ complete ; the completement of the list of the p.vments mad ! he $ >8 "^r f f''""^- '\ ''^ *'"^' " the subsidy on the fust sixty niiles, LVnierUs 1 i eh w , ^"^"'f''^,^' *"""'"« '1^^ balanceof Oct.be., 1800; it is a very l.^ig pie;; :? ::;:^ m s^:, o "^^ '--November. 188^ to under my physician's orders I have not been to my office for two , lavs. ^""'"•«''-"» '^"^^ '■ ■'''4i!!|»ii«-"a!-«i!i 806 J. C. Langelier Q. When will that list be ready ? , ■ t \ I hoi.e it will be ready in a couple of days. It must be made trom thp receipts. I am Koingtoget them from the Department of Public Works and it will be made at once; T desire specially to show it to the Commission, this is a part of it, the rest is as much again, it is not a work that om he made in a few liours. ^ Q. You can lay the fir.^t part before us ? A. I have no objection. I am anxious to show the work to the Commiesion, so a- .o establish that it is not owing to ill-will. It is an enormous work. Q. This list is in connection with what is here mentioned in the report of the commis- sioner of Public Works for 1890 at page A. At page 58. Q. What year ? A. The report for the year 1890. If the Commission will allow me, the list of clauns which Mr. Garncau should have produced, has been spoken of severaltimes. \\e have been unable to produce it; as to the lirst sixty miles, we have produced the complete list m the original there were certain details giving the nature of the claim. ; here is Mr. John J. Macdoiiald'^ receipt establishing that he, Mr. .John J. Macd..nald has that document. It the Commission allow me, I produce it as Exhibit No. 20S. ,, t • v , The Conmiission asked me to to produce Mr. Thorn's telegram respecting Mr. Light s claim here is the original and copy, at the same time as the letter which I sent to Mr- Moreau foi warding him that. If the Commission will allow it, I will keep the original. There is a copy that can be verified by the Clerk. It is under.-tood that the original will be leturnfd to me 'it is Exhibit No. 210. Now on looking I f.mnd-I will remark to the Commission that I have thiee immense cases of these documonts-here is a copy of a letter which I sent to Mr. Gan.eau on the sixth of May, forwarding certain accounts and acknowledging receipt nf a cheque from the department. It is a lett.r of the sixth of May, 1891. .Now here again is another cojy of a tetter „f theGlhof May to the HonourMhleMr.Garneau, account- ing lor the expenditure of the lirst tilteen hundred doHais which had been placed in my hands. . . . i i ,i It is Exhibit 211. I will certify these copies after the sitting, so as not to delay tlie Commissior . Here is a WiUv of the twenty-eighth of April, I do not know, I do not think it has alreadv been produced, it is a reply t.) a lett.r of Mr. Garneau's. " I am readv to commence work at once, etc' I also a-ked the department for instructions to go to Montreal, 1 had business with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Thorn, and wislied to meet them, and had a few claims to pay them. 1 produce that document as Exhibit No. 212. Here is a, letter of the twenty- ninth of April, I believe that it has not been i)roduced. It is a lettei that Isent to the depart- ments bowing the application of the onehiindro,! and seventy-five thousand dollars. I do not think that that has been r^roduced. I produce it as Exhibit No 213. Now, Your Honour, here is a letter of the 3()th .Tune to Mr. Lesigo. This. I understand, is a copy ot my letter to Mr Lesage the Assistant Commissioner. I could not find the copy in the beginning. It has already been produced as Exhibit 152. Now, if the CommiB.sion desire, it here are two other letters from Mr. Moreau respecting Light's claim. Mr. Cas(jrain : — We do not want that. The Editor of The ivUness : — I was a«ked why I had not paid Mr. Light's claim. I could not pay it, because it was no" ! J- C Langefeir 8or before Charles Langelier. commL oTr" inZVlu "T" '''P'-^'""" ''^''^ ""'' P™^'"«^^ large 8„m due him by Mr m3 kne W T .^i;- u '■'"'*''"^ declares that there is a out merely to the Commission fTloPn • '' ^'"^ *^"' 'locument a long time. I point it that document!) ° '"''''°"- ^^^'^ Comnn.s«.oners decide that it is not necessary to produce menL^;?;:srsr;rirz^'Xr^rrnr '-"ir *^7^°^-"- -^ ^- That is the reason why I wJ rlZZL u^^^^^^^^ any documents, desire it. here is an^tW letL ^h S T ." T"'r^'' ^u^a^nre,. If the Commissioners seventeenth of ^u^ H^e ' a cer i n / ^l' ',''' Honourable Mr. Garneau, dated the nussioner which wTshanded ^ hy thfciX '" ^^'^---C--" ^^PPO'-^-^ - Com- % Hon. Mr. Justice Babg ;— Q. It is already produced. flow. J/r. JMsiice Baby :— We do not want them. By Mr. Caagrain : — Q. About the third of ,Iane I belipve th.if v,,„ Montreal, respecting the BaiedesChale;;smarterT "'•"^*-' '^ ''"'-' t'> ^'^^ Eteadun,. of A. Yes, I wrote in the beginning of .Tune Q. Wil! you listen to the reading of this letter and state whether it is the letter ? The Editor of the Etendard, Montreal, Sir, Ql'kbkc, .3rd .June, 1891. Under the heading of " Strange iliunors," yon nuhli.heJ on H,o 9rul, ^f Ar article respecting the Baie des Chaleurs n.at e , i wh 1 fs sta ed " Inbl M ' ',' "I'^'t have come to us respecting the use ma.le of th se ll ers of crtht arc n '^//'^^'^^ 7.''^ 808 Hon. F. Langelier make it your duty to retract what you say respecting " the use made of these letters of credit,'- in default of which I shall be obliged at once tu take other measures to protect myselt against these calumnes. I have the honour to be, Your humble Servant, ' J. C. LAXGELIER, Commissioner for the Bate lies Chaleurs Ruilua)/. A. That is certainly the letter. Q. On the next day, or the day afterwards, the Electeur of this city had an article on the same question ? A. That may be so, I know nothing about it, because at the time, that that letter was written I waa returning from Montreal, on board the steamer, with Mr. Choquette, advociite, of Montreal, and Mr. (.;hoquette had a bundle of papers among which was tlie Etendard. Mr. Choquette drew my attention to that aitide. A few tlays after, I wrote the letter to the Etendaxd, and I left for Baie des Chaleurs, and continued making payments. I know nothing further about it. . And further the deponent saith not. THE HONOURABLE FRANgOIS LANGELIER, of the city of Quebec, Esquire, a»ivocate, being duly sworn upon theHnly Evangelists, doth c epose and say :— {Examined upon special ap/AcaJtion of Mr. Btique.) By Mr. BHque : — Q. You know that promiss. y notes have been produced here, by Mr. Pacaud. which were endorsed by you ? A. Yes. Q. And which have been spoken of is election notes ? A. Yes. Q. Why were these notes prepared and endorsed? A. They wore f<'r two purposes. Those which were made before the elections were al. made to pay election expenses. Your Honours know how elections for political purprses are held. Without being in them now. Your H(mours at one time knew about them. When •we are in the inidxt of elections, there comes a certain time, towards polling day, when mt a moment is to be lost, even fcr the most regular expenses, if a delay of one day occurs it would be just as well to do nothing at all. We had subscriptions that had been promised to us. I am speaking of the executive committee to which I belonged, and Mr. Pacaud, who had been entrusted with the organization, told us, at a certain time, I do not remember the date, the notes should show it, that he absolutely required money at once, before the subscriptions in question had been paid in, because there were heavy expenses, among others for the central committee at Quebec, where we had spent over Hfteen thousand dollars for printing, pamphlets, mailing pamphlets, we also employed about twenty persons, I believe, in copying electoral lists and in sending them everywhere. For those expenses, he said that he had no more money, even to pay the postage stamps that were necessary, then we signed the notes to cover the expenses to be made. m on. F. Lungelier 809 ^"^'•t'^e elections, I am not certain whether it wfl«fr,rfi. for contestations only, „r whether there w.re not , hor n . *''" ^f'^'P^^ «* '"'*'<'"& deposits intende,! for the pnyment of .lection nccTnnt '' "" ^'""'^"''^ ^''^■^*^"*' ^^ere process of these notes, but I know it ".'seve' „l AT" ''"!' ''''"' ^^"^ ^""« ^i^'^ t^e these contestations, and the money was sent lo n,v '!!? ""', "I!" '"""'"' '" ^*^^"^™' ^^ deposits for the contestations and to pay the LhL "?'', -' ^''■' ^ '"'•"'"' ''^ '""'^*^ "'« for the prothonotary's office, l>ut,f.rexamp e to nTv n' r*' ""' ""'•^' '^'^ ''i«b»'«-'ents the petitions to Chicoutin.i, Rimm.ski et, ^ ^ '' ""^"^ '"''■" ^"*^"«'«1 "ith taking Q. You are the brother of the Hon. Mr. Charles Langelier ? Q. Dil you know, at that time, in the month ,.r \ •, .Mquiry,ofthebargainthatexistedbetwxv,TMr P 1 '■ .">/"•''' "' ^^^'"''' ^*'« Senate %m,m which have been in question i,, thTs enq,^; ' '"'' ""'• ^^'^'"^'^•°"g 'respecting the A- Not in the slightest, either directly or indiiv,..!.- tv. .- . given to me by Mr. ^aker, member for Ali«l • ' " ^ ^"'^' ""'^^ ^ ^'c^rd of it was intheammitteeonPrivnle^'adKle Z'^'m;-;"^ Wo .ere said : " K;vve you heard of the revelations nth.! «• ."' '"""" '" "'' ^ ^""^ ••^'^^^ng- He " It seems that it has just been decla ed e "e thcS l'! T T/'^p ' '^"^ "" «« ^'^^ = Ontario Bank, that out of the subsidy vote for ,\' ^^ ^''' ^''''''''^' ''"""^'^^ '"^ ^he Railway, «]00,(K)0 were given to Mr. Pacu.d " r « 'i Tf'T'''''' °'' ^''^ ^'''^ ^^^^ Chaleurs ;t, and r asked him for the details. He s d " T '"' ^"^ '^' ^''' ""'''' ^ ^^'' "^" of it." That was the tirst time I heard oi' the tran^io/"' '"" '"^'' ^ ^"''■'"'' '^^^" **^'d Q. When was that? A. It was about the time the Bale des Ph^ilonr^ u -i Committee. ^' thaleurs Railway Bill came before the Senate A. In what month '? A. I believe .1,.. 1, „.s i„ .h, ,„a „,.j,„j, „^ ,t,,^^ ^^ Q. Will you state whether you benetitteJ in «nv ,„>,. *• which have been in question in this inquTv y ' '"" ""''' P"'' "^ '^' ^^^-^^ A. Not one cent, either directly or in liiectiv AlWhnfrri httle credit my political party at certain My endo n. al I b "" .'" "'"'^ ""^ "'^' aions, and I had specially done after the elections of SHfi^H h 'u °"'' "" ^'^^''^ "^'''^■ Personally, I did not draw a cent of nrolU ne' Wh T' '^"""' *^" ^'^''^^'°"^ «'' 1887- of that money. ^ "' "'''^^" ^""^''"'^' "or indirectly. I never saw a cent Q. How did yon calculate that these notes should bo paid ? ™"s::i^:rt;;s;:::srir:a-:;^:r -r ^-^^^ '^-^^^ that we would not have personally to pay LI tes A ^'^ ?:"?""'• .^^ ^^^'^'''^^^d already subscriptions given, but he .akl tb it h > , * r "' '"''' "' ^^^^ ^^ere were 810 Han F. Langdier contestations, we calculated that tl ' amount woiild be paid by the deposits, when tlio deposits were withdrawn, and that if there was anything lost out of these amountfl, we would bear the loss between us, saving the attempt to get assistance from friends, a« we had done previously. By Mr. Casgrain : — Q. You endorsed the notes in question to assist the political party to r;hich you belong ? A. Yes. Q. You wore a caudic'-te at that election yourself? A. Yes. Q. It was stated here ihut there were three classes of notes ; notes signed before the election or before the polling ; notes signed after the iiolling, about the 9th of March, ami afterwards the signed blanks Ifft with Senator Pelletiir, and which were endorsed by Mr. Mercier before he left for Europt^ Can you state now what was the amount of the notes which you so endorsed ? A. I cannot say without seeing the notes. Q. Have you no idea? A. Not at all. ' Q. Wore you not concerned about it? A. No. I know that on every occasion when I endorsed one of those notes Mr. Paciiud told us the amount that was required, and we endorsed the note accordingly. Q. How many notes were signed on the twenty-eighth of February ? A. I cannot say even whether I tiidorsed on the twenty-eighth of February. I know that I endorsed before the polling, but at what date it was, I cannot say. 0- Do j'ou know the amount either? A. No. Q. I wnppose that the same answer applie-< to the notes signed about the ninth of Mivrch ? A. I know nothing about those, I was not in Quebec. Q However, you endoraed a note on the 10th of March ? A. There may be one dated the 10th of xM>irch endorsed by me, but I did not endorse it on the lOth of March ; I was not luTe. Q. After the polling, do you km w how many notes were endorsed? A. I cannot say. That depend >d on the necessities of the election contestations. For that we did not nsk fnr sub.scriptiuMs from any one. Q. When did the conte>tations commence ? A. In the month of April. Q. Towards the middle of April ? A. The majority of the contestations were of the middle of April. We got the money before. We did not want to wait to the last minute to get the funds. C^. Can you say how many signed blanks were Ifft with Senator Pelletier ? A. I know nothing at all about them; I was not there. And further the deponent saith not. ■B.V ffoa. Mr Justu Edwin Pope EDWIN POPE, recalled, testified a« follows : By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson .■- Q. Show me your subpoena ? (Witness produces tht same.) Q. Have you made the search directed hv v., u Mm, 1 nr '"'*''*'^'^'^ JO'»-^»bpoena,Mr.Pope? Mr. Charles B. Langlois :-~ CompL'y";^^^^^^ outside of the present inquiry. The comnlnv J ' '""^ '" '"^'^^ ^^ich appears to W P" he and the communications wh re "eVves aT'"' " T^"^'^ ^^'^P^^'le to he instructed therefore to object to the prod Son oT "T""'^ '" ^^ confidential. lam upon the case nowsubmitted to the ComS^^^^^^ b, m?1 "^ '''''^' ^"'^^ ^^'^^^^y ^^eaS Honours are aware that under the statnt^H ' °'^'"^' ''"'^'^^e of that. In fact Your wijhonttheorderof theCommlt: t :^^;^^^^^^^^ ^ I-na.ty if he doe^pl;.}^ pubhc has reposed in the Company T .is i"^,!. „ f T '" ^^f ">' "'« confidence ^^ich the winess, but al.o on the part of ^he ^mX ? '' T "^^•"''•^" °" '^e part of the extendmg throughout the whole of the L^EV t lo.t '' ' '^^'"P''"^ ^-^' ^ut a, hat people have i„ tills Company ifcomm nl t '^ ^'"^ *" ^^^^^^y the confidence before the Court and be put in e^ enee beTe t ""n^^ '° '''^ '=*^^*^ ^^" ^^ ^-""^ .nqiured into not relevant to the present clTe and ^^' ''"''" '^"'' ""^'^'"g "'"y be mqinry might be disastrous bevond '^vtll." ''^^7'."^^^"'^"«« o^ so extending the Post Office might be con.pared to a Co ^ ^ «* h s' kf '.""T" '" *'^ ^'^'"^ -'^y ^^'e samerulesandthesameobjectionsexcept fo thl t V ' '^'"'"'^ ''^ «"^J^^^ ^o the 9nbpoena,which,,fcourse,lwilladmit m,,ril I '"^; '^y ^^''^'^t articles named in the oth, rs can be brought before the CommiSr and admSl^"^ ^'^ "^'""^'™- ^^ - Hy Hon. Mr Justice Davidson :— We„,,h« „,.„,„ „„ .„„„ ,,, ^,^^^„,, ^^_^^^^^__ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ Q. And found no messages designated' A. All the messages called for by the subp,.na have been destroyed Q. Have you any other subpoena ? "csf.royed. A. r have no other ordpr Th^,^ „.„ to that. ''''''■ ^'^-^ -^ - order given to me verbally, and I can answer Q. As to May and June? whi^-,^n?Tr:,^^r i: i/r ur ^itr^^'-r*? -^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^'^ - ^ay me^nges between th., parties ment oil ^tsuCn«"%'•''" ^""'^' ^"^ ' ^^^ "" Chaleurs matter. " «"bpcena referrmg at all to the Bale des .,X"r >■"" "■' ""'" *" "« ■"-" "PO" you callin, „p„. ,„„ „, ,„ ,^.„^. ^„^ A. Yes, I have ; I have it with me. 812 Edwin Pope Q. What M the date of it ? A. The 22nd day of October. Q. Since that date have any messages been destroyed in your office? A. No, Sir, none at all. Q. None at all ? A. None at all. Q. Yon will haml up to the Commission, not necessarily for production in the cawcthe messages which you have so far found, and the Commission will determine whether they are relevant i,^ *he inquiry or not. Mr. Lanylois : — That is the objection which I wish to make, if that is the question put to the witiiesp. He has to be the judge, in this particular instance, of what relates to the particul ,r business under in witness Ciin continue his search mri ««« . of his labor,, andif he sees anything rljv"t 1""""""'' ^^ " "'""'"^ ^'^ '^^"'^ ing relat.ve to th« mqu.ry, we can have another session. \ i By Hon. Mr. Justice Davidson ;— Q. Have you found any telegrams? A. I examined the business of the months of May and Jun. , t . gram. ; but I don't think they are really connected wif h H • / "" '"""^ '"^"^ *«'^- I to the rule, we ought to have an order froLth (^ / "' '"' ' '"''^^^' '^^^''^^g ordertosave time, if you Win alio?: Jw^^^^^h^^^^^^^^^^^ '^^ ^^'^^-- but in get them back, if you will agree upon it "' '''' ^°"'- '"«P«°"«°. and to B14 John Murray Telegrams are handed to Commissioners, who, after taking communication of the tele- grams, return them to the witneHs, they not having any bearing on the subject matter of the inquiry. And further the deponent saith not. Tlie rommission then adjourned to the 7th November, 1891. JULES B^LANGER, Clerk of the Committion. CANADA. Province of Qui District of Qieh Issued under Louis A. jETTii.J Judge of the Cou < ;the Superior r, stances which y e Act 54 Victoria v On the sevent' and ninety-one. THE HONOU: ( Examined upo By Mr. Caegrai Q. Mr. Garneai the newspaper the ( headed "A Rumor' (The witness takt A. I must say tl been in questif ri bef Q. Are you a su A. Yes, Sir. Q. And are you A. Very rarely ; Q. It has gone d( A. No, for a cou, Q. Are you cert remember ? A. I am certain I Q- It is not true it yourself? A. At the time ? Q. Yes. DA, I fir! ROYAL COMMISSION CANADA, Province of District of Issued under the Great Seal of the PrnvJ,. r^ the Superior Court, C: ..-ni««ioner8 to i, .uli^ to 1 ' ^"^«"^«-P'^^^«« Davidson, Jud/e' 81it BITTING On the seventh day of iVovembor in n and ninety-one. °'^'"'^'' '" "-^«-"f Our J.ord one thousand eight hundred Prehent : T,>eHonourah,eMr_Ju«ticoLouie.A.W, President. L0UI.S-FRAN901.S-GEOROE8 Baby CHAm,K,s-l'KKRs Davidson, ■By J/r. Caagrain :— ri^f - -i^--S^^ hein. . nu.her of beaded "A Rumor" p.,h,i«hed in ^-r.^^,:::ZZ^^^Z^^^ T^^ me ^ness taJces ....munieation oft.e newspaper, W^Snr :CSrLr "^^^'^^^'^- ^^-'^^^^ -nt,. .nee it has A. Yel'sir. ' '"''""''' ^'^ '"'^ ^^'^"^"^ ^'« ^«««"«.^ Q. And are you accustomed to read if A. Very rarely ; for a year past I read it very rareJy <4. It has gone down a I ttle within th^ na.f f ^' , A. No, for a couple of years andsf m ^ *".": !"«"th8 ? ^ Q- Are you cert'ain that y^u had 'orr T'^'" '^ '""^'^ ^^^ -«"'hs. '^'-^ber? y«" ^"^'l not read that paragraph, or do you merelv not A. I am certain that I did not rea\o one ever spoke to me about it. Q. Are you certain that Mr. Pacaud ditl not speak to you about it ? A. I am positive that Mr. Pacaud di I not speak to me about it. Q. You are certain that on the twenty-seventh, when Mr. Pacaud went to your house, that you did not mention tliat article to him ? A. Never, I saw Mr. Pacaud only once, the time in question in my first evidence, and that was not on the twenty seventh. Q. The letter which Mr. Pacaud wrote to you was written on the twenty fifth, a Satur- day, and Mr. Pacaud went to your house on the twenty-seventh, a Monday evening ? A. It was not in the evening, that he came to my house. Q. Then, you are sure that you have not read that article ? A. I am ceriain that Mr. Pacaud never spoke to me about that article. Q. And you have not read it ? A. And that I have not read it. Q. Did you, about the thi id of June read, a letter published in the Etendard and in the Eledeur, by Mr. Chrys08t6me Langelier, respecting the Baie des Chaleurs affair ? A. I do not remember that. Q. You do not remember that ? A. No. Q. That did not strike you? A. No, not at all. Q. You do not remember that there was, about that time, some discussion respecting the Baie des Chaleurs Railway matter, and especinlly in the Etendard, in a letter from Mr- Chrysostome Langelier and in an article in the Eledeur in which Mr. Chrysostdme Langelier's letter was answered ? A. I do not remember that at all, not at all. And further the deponent saith not. PHILIPPE VALLI£RE is recalled and continues his deposition follows : {Examined upon special applicetion of Mr. B&ique.) By Mr. BHque : — Q. Mr. Vallifere about the third of July last I believe you accompanied Mr. Pacaud to the Banque Natioiiale,when there was question of the discounting of Mr. Pacaud's note for the sum of twenty thousand dollars ($20,000) endorsed by you ? A. Yes, Sir. Q. Did you see Mr. Lafrance, the cashier of the bank, with Mr. Pacaud, respecting the discounting of that note ? A. Yes. Sir. Q. Will you state what occurred in your presence. . A. I went to the bank with Mr. Pacaud to ask for the discount of that note ; Mr. Lafrani •) told us that he was short of funds, that it would not be e.vsy for him to discount that note at the time, he said. " It is very singular, the presiilent asked mo to do him the favour, when : annoyed with Mr. Piicaud,in I have someth M.'rcier. I ha balance of the amount. " Mr. the month." Mi all here." The before me, and had money elsj ^y Mr. CfMi Q. What da A. In the bf And further ffon. Mr. Jut On closing th at first thought w without hindranc( It would not I due to those who 1 Bar and the Press. As to the Coui they did not tlisapj which they always our duty to give to The press did r but we are pleased i their disputes. It th sary in the accomp congratulate it ther Mr. BHque .•— Before the close desnous of publicly J long inquiry, Your Ij Many feared thai not but give rise to, t Would not be to some "ate, and I know thn owing to y„ur method you have 80 acted as t P Valliere 817 favour, when I had paper of thp V a "^"^""""""^^^^^^ balance of the accZtLrthe'^'^':^'' ' ^'" '^^e it hVe^^ j'' °^^^^hangeibr Mr the month." Mr. Pacaud said • Mfl J/ "^ ''*"''^'- ^-^^e you d^ Z; ^ i^' ^ '"«'"& a.l here." The note was r?i= ! , "'^''' anything it will hJ ; . '^^^ beginning of before me, and hetS f tl" b 5'i''\^'^^-'^ P-'l ""e n^o e tUt'^" ' "'" ^^'"^ ^' had money elsewhere. •"" "^ ^^«hange. Mr. Pacaud t'^di^ T, '''^"^'"^ over B,Mr.a.,rai.:^ --' «- W that he Q- What date was that? A. In the beginning of July And further the deponent «aith not. Hon. Mr. Justice JettS .-.— On closing this inquirv r at first thought we would havT/r. T'^"^' ^' Permitted to state th.t tb . without hindrance -ached treen/JS^ffi'^" ''^"^ ^-ttate v avoi ^ °'T''°' ^« • It would not be right were we """"^ °^°"^ tJk "''''' ^"^ ^''^ ^ave t::]^^---esented^;;^-----^^ result is especially As to the Counsel whoso hi ■ "^"'^^^^ society, the our duty to give to the evidence "' '"^ '""°^«d 'he direclT wh oh T^^ '^'"^ ^ The press did not. no doubt int • ^' "" '* but we are pleased to see thaf/h f 'T'P' '*« «'''^^"t struggle which H • their disputes. It thrfLln '^ ''^' ''^'^ '"ambers of the 0^^ ' '"'^"''"^ P^voked Bary in the ace mpthSrof ^ *° P''-«"e th t p^ s'r:'^' 1^^'^^ «»2 congratulate it the'reon ^"' '' °"^ '''''■ ^^ '« therefore ordu?; to aSw/XraT'" ^n BHque :~- desirous of pubHcl^^.rf ••'''* l^^ ^'"'"^ '"J' 'earned collea^np nr . ■on. in.Hnr;:Sur'Cor:::;;'r *™™ ^'"^ «"' "^ tfThetsetr- ^"' "^-'^-^ -'ate. and I know that i ^'o ^tTbf T '^-'P"'-'-" for impart li^^'tu 7^^^^-"^"^"' owing to your mt>th^\ e ^^^"'^S I arn but interpretim?' rL • ' ' ^ *"> bappy to I ■ ^' ■ 818 Remarks \s in a political contest. The action of the Commission was not for that reasoti, less ener- getic ; it has succeeded, as every one admits in placing before the public all the facts and circumstances that could possibly enter into the scope of this inquiry. On our side, we believe, that we can testify on our own behalf that we were no obstacle to a full and complete investigation,, and on the contrary that we favored that result as much as it was in our power. With Your Honours' permission, we also desire to express our high appreciation of the signal services rendered by the Clerk of the Commission. By Mr Hall :— I concur entirely in the remarks just made by my honourable colleague Mr. Beique, but I wish to add a few words to what he has so well stated. I do not wish at all to enlogize the members of the Commission. I wish however to publicly state hero on my on behalf, and on behalf of my colleague, Mr. Casgrain.that the public is unanimous in recogniz- ing the complete impartiality with which the inquiry has been conducted. You, gentlemen came to preside over this inquiry with the firm determination of not forgetting the judi- cial character with which you are vested, and we cannot but acknowledge that you have not deviated from the line of conduct which you laid down from the very beginning. For my own part, I do not concal that I hesitated at first to 'undertake the task which it was sought to impose upon me, fearing that my character as a politician should make me forget for a time my duties as an advocate, but, upon reflexion. I thought to myself that above all, I was a member of the Bar and that I could not as such refuse my services even in so delicate a matter. It was by being inspired with that thought that my colleague, Mr. Casgiain, and I, endeavored, throughout the whole proceedings, always to remember the reserve which that capacity imposed upop us, and to confine ourselves to the vigourous performance of our duty and nothing more. I hope that, although we at times had to venture upon difficult and dangerous ground, we did not deviate too far from the line of that reserved and impartial conduct which we had resolved to follow. In any case the Commissioners have been so indulgent to us in the course of this inquiry that I am certain that they wilfully refused to notice anything that may have sometimes escaped our vigilance and good will. Trusting that the efforts which we made to second Y ur Honours, in the accomplish- ment of the arduous task which you had to fulfil, have not been fruitless, we think at the same time that we can render to ourselves the justice that we never at any time were wantiM!,' in that deference and respect which were due to the members of the Commission. Mr. Amyot : — I believe that I interpret the feeling of the Quebec Bar, in congratulating the Montroiil Bar in sending us two such worthy representatives from its body which we have for a long time learned to respect and esteem, and I may say, that if there are many advocates of their ability in the city of Montreal, then the Montreal Bar is worthy of the great metropolis of the Dominion. Mr. Justice Davidson : — I add but a word to the appreciation expressed by the president of the assistance afforded us by the learned and able counsel who hive appeared before the Commission. We Depositions signed desire to express our thanks for thp v. ■ ' ^^===== favor. ^^''°"' P^^J"d'«^. to conduct it without bt and to hT""'^ "" '"'^"''•y las and to determine it without Hon. Mr. Justice JetU :~ We do not see the necessitv Mr Knii • Au" the Commission adjourned .Jn'k ''"^'''''"° ^^ "°' *° ^^^^^^e any. J. B^LANGER. Clerk of the Commiamn. II IS CHAMBERS. (I Present : ^. H„„o„„We M. J„.,i„e Lo™-A, J«, p„.y.„,, L0U1.S.FRAN501S-GEORQES Bae , Charles-Peers Davidson, Mr. Gaboury, « „ Mr. Pope, " „ , J. bIi;langer, Clerk of the Cbmmitsion. n\: 820 Depositions signed IN CH /AMBERS. The thirteenth day of November, une thousand eight hundred and ninety-one. PUESKNT : The Honourable Mr. Justice Louis-A. Jett^, Prosidtnt, " " " " Louis FRAN901S Geokgks Baby, » " " " Chakles Peeks DavidoON. Commiasionera. The following witnesses appiaied before the Commissioners and acknowledged and signed their depositions : The Honourable Mr. Mercier, before Mr. Justice Jett6. 4< Aoven.be, on. thonsan.l one hundred and ninety-one. I'UKSKNT : ■'!'""°°.;"*'*.:^'-'";"«'"-A...«^M-«,ia,.„, ■Louis-FRAxyoi^-GKouGKs Baby, Chaki.ks-I'ekrs Davidson, GUSTAVE GRENIEB CI U (-'ommmionera. J. BELANGER, Clerk of the Commission. IN CHAMBERS. The twentieth day of March, 1891. Prksent : •n.e H„„„„„,„ „, „„,„ ^^^^^ ^^^_ ^^^_. ^^^^ ^'^•^^•■^-^ka^'C'Ts-GeokgesBaby, Charles-Peers Davidson, EDWIN POPP o TO.-f , , Oommiasioners. in Cha.he^ Si^J^So^ ^ TT i^;:^;--?-^ ^^^-^^ ^-"'^^ioners had been asked for, declared : That shortK- ,,■!"'"""" °* ^'^'^ cablegrams which he to the office of th. telegraph companv. vl ho t'h ""V"^" ^''''"^'' '^^- ^'^eaud wen permission to look at the cablegmmV wh S 1 l '^ T^"/ '^ ^'^^ «S^'"'. «nd a.ked fo After a search hae;;'ferity by resorting to recrimination at the present moment, but the facts are there an.i " "lan appreciate them. I need not, therefore OghAal Correspondence 823 paasjiulgment upon them. All I will «a ■ , ~========== Si:ff tl/" ''" ™"^^^' "•^'■^'^ --nt^do'Vs'iSorl""^?,''^''"''^'''^"^'- thousand nrst naJl, you can see to what nn ^„ . J.«'tJ,UOU acres o and • At 'i-^ -,„„♦ ^ 8oven,menUcon.e,Ued to double up, he. ;S, '"!;''■"''"• "»'' '»"' "nrortunally b„?h Goverumeut, the whole .ub.ijyr.h°,r' "" .'•-""''W. w. paid, ae L", ' Fel-^ Wo.e .h.„ „.«, ,he r«d no, L" g "* 'oZl'" "' ""'r '" """ -"Pl. 4 ne! .re" once more. At all events, we shall be doub " 2^' "^' '"^ "''"' ^^ *'« "^^ '««e!ml ..ar.rrrr;"!.:r::;i^r:7-»r-.....p^^^^ Railway, to have spoken as follow^ :- ^'°''"'""" "^ P'^P^''^ relative to the Baie des Chaleura e saddest things is to bo found tee '>:",;;';' '^^°^^ ^ ^^'^ ^he relati.m depend upon had not in the month of Mr ch '^^r^^^'J'"^ "°''""S ''"^ their work to P«> lous, and these wages, the only thing h'^^^^^^^^^^ the ten months Tins money, which had been furn shed bv the Pro inn "^^"-""^ ^^'-'^' ^^eir families. pay these legitimate and privilege.l deL Ind fc ^H >"" '°"''""" ''"'' ^' ^°"'^ ^'e "«ed nd when they presented themselves for payment '?^ road passed, had not been paid rned out of the offices of the compan;.' L^remLr on "' ''"'' '°' *"^^*'^ "'^^ ^-« fisherman, who owned a single lot, neiWv thowh I- T "'"^"'^ ^" Particular. A poor "nchngt impossible to work the m^^^:^;tl:^''^ ''^' '^°" ^-^l^- by the road andsaKl:''Hereismy position. I had Tbitrf lit I'T'''''^ '" '""'' '''^'"^ *« '"^ «uch as potatoes, etc. Besides this I e rned rnv jvelH / "'"l' ''*^ "^^^^^^^ P^^^ucts, -n a part of my land ; X cannot .ultivat:thXLt ^^ U.::^2 .^^^ij;- 824 Official Correspondence " I sent for the special agent of the j-ompaiiy — I speik cif J888 — when I pnaed a short time in this part of the country. I asked him wliy he did not pay. He answered me. "I have not paid, because the company has given nic no money." " Tlien, why do ydu take possei-sion of tlie land without ottering the money ? " "Because the company promised to send me the money at once, and to pHv the amount agreed upon." " You must then have put in claims?" "Why, yes, I write at loa.st three times a niontli. and I do not even get an answer. It is impossible for me to pay this g one there either. At certain sea- sons of the year, in the spring and fall, it is physically impossible to cross it, and yet it is the great artery of communication in that region. All those who have to come up to take the cars at Campbelton must pass there. I say to those who do me the honor to listen tome, I say to the members of the Legislature of this country, who are gifted with intelligence and must have a heart, " You have there a people who rely upon you." When you demanded of the Legislature the power to annul the charters of the railway companies that had not fulfilled their obligations to the Province, you uttered according to L'Eledeur of the 27th December, 1890, the following words :— "What is this power which we ask ? Everybody knows that the House has for yea: s voted considerable sums of money in favor of certain railway companies. These companies were incorporated in a more or less inconsiderate manner. They have received the subsidios and they are bankrupt. We cannot get rid of them. There is no procedure which permits us, the Executive, to say to these companies, which are either bankrupt or do not proceed with their work :— " Begone, we want to build the railways which the Province decided to build." There is no remedy. These are insurmountable obstacles, barriers thrown across the way, and you cannot remove them. Shall the progress of the whole Province or of part Official Correspondence 825 of the Province be arrested becau-piiulivi I, i k p money of the Legislature and stand .tr.ck s il^ Th" ™"' ""'"P'^"'"'^« ^^'^' have taken the LegislatMic. The infent of tl,e Le-isi,,*,, ' . \, " ""' «-"^ '^ ^^'■'^s into.Klod to he hy the thebniKlingoftherailwayitshnll^t i e ;"rr ""^^ ""^ f"'"™^'' -*»^ some moans to force it to do so. We c.nn ^ ^w, , , . "' ""^ ''"'"' "''''^' '^-ro must be because certain parties find it prc.fitah M^/no Z ''''^'T'^ '"'^^^h of the whole country is occurring at this mon,onf/ Take th^ie do n^^ the monoy of the poople. What subsidies should he douhlod up. A suhsidv of lo mo "*■ . '" ^-"Pnuy ha« asked tlu.t its toit for ISO miles, in all. 1,S()0() ooo acroT T 1 vT '7^''' '""'' f'""' '"''^ '•'^'' ^^^^ K'-a"ted mile for 180 miles. Both governments h', v. ,1 , 'n i *^'7 •^''"'"•'"t ''«'' f^ninted it S3,-J00 per afte .having rocived all L .ul , o ij . ' ^ "" 'l;-"-'>i-. and now, thecompany vote! it, stays the whole progress of that r,, ™^"'-' '" '^' '"tenti.m of those who pay for the land over whid, the r ilsn^^^^^^ refuses to winter by the unfort.uiMt.. f.rnnTs to^ ?/"?>!"' ' ^■"■•' ''"' "" "'^^ ""^^ '''''' ^"^1" l''«t company remains, and when we snv t.i o h.r, ■ n ^''""T"^ ^""K^t in the stores. This shareholders in order thnt things ^v^ro,"," " fh ^", ""' '?, '" T""'"'^'' ^'"-^ "^''ts of the prices. They have nothing in vi.w but o m L '''"^''"''"J''^^^^ ''«''• '^'^^^ for e.xhorbitant ask for the power to annuUhis chL;; i^^e p^.H^h.^lf ^'^^'^"^^ "^^ ^^^^ P"^'-" ^^« " If we obtain the power what will l>n tv,-, „ H.hts at reasonable prLs. and 1^ '^:S^^:^::S:2^ ^''^^tZ ^"' "' '''' paid, but the company refuses tTcomTo L u > r '^ T '"'''''• ^ " "'"'"'' ^^^^ ''"'^'^ company refuse to obey us but it Toos no ' '" ""'' ''"* *''"'' ""' ""'-^' '^''^« ^^^ right ? Wl>y not cancel thi oh tor and alL '"'".7 "'"■ '''"^"- ^° ^•«" »'»"1< ^^at i, will aflord an outlet for the wea thv labi antsT V " t. ''"'"T *° '""^' ^^^'^ ^-^' ^^ich requires it ; private interests are again" tiJlouM .^^'f^ '"' ''^^'""^' ' ^"^^"^ '"t*^^-"* to mention the two which appoart .^ the mo^t I^? "^ ""'""^' '"* ' "'" ^^ '^°"'-* I also find, in the issue of the 21sf M-irpVi iqqo «p .u of observations made before the Le-islativi ^ombh ''"^' ^'"P"'"' I^'^'"-'«'"-. in a report to the Baie dos ns^leurs Raihvay cllt„y:'^::tl'oC^^^^^^^^^ Mr. Martin comfilains that certain claims a^'iunst tho R„,' i oi , t, • not been paid. Mr. Morcier answers him aT follows - ' '' ' '"''"'"■^ ''^"'^^'^>' ^"^'^ thanif °c:St;^:Jli^::iir":::;:;,r^- ^^ ^--^ ^^^-^-^ ^^^ -^^ing but vileged claims, that i.; those oTfannerTwhln fh P'^^r'""'"^'' '""■•"•^- ^e pay pri- we do not pay them when th ^e X; " Tl^TreTV. ' '"1"'T ^'^^' '^^ '^^^^f^*'^ '• by the railwav, and whom we cannot I ^'"'^•^f.'^^^.farmers whose land has been taken not been held.;' We have^M r:^;:'^'::^^^^:' '^T''^'^'^' '^^ :v'm,tted by the contractors we pay. We consider, oh 0,1?"^ ^ '''"'"""'" ^""^ fe soeps 10 execute the legislation granting 800,000 acres of tu:i 82U Official Correspondence land to ^'i ' :$Hie .•« ' laleurs Railway Company under the Act above oited ; and I lind there a tclfgwrn uom the Hon. Mr. Rohidoux, Attorney-General, to the Hon. Mr.Givrncim, of date the 17th April, 18iil, from Montieal, in the following words :— " The Honourable Pikube Garneau, Commiationer of f^'hlic Works, Quebec. " I fear to be detained here by iilneaa longer than I thought. You may proceed to business in my absence. I ratify in advance all you will do in the matter of the Baic des Chaleurs Railway. Langelier will tell you exactly what was decided upon before the departure of Mr. Mercier. I am iiiformod that any delay in this matter may be prejudicial to the interests of the enterprise and of the Province. (Signed), J. E. ROBIDOUX." On the same day, Mr. A. M. Thom made to the Government the proposal embodied in the Older in Council No. 237. , Between the 2l8t and 2.3r(I April, 1891, the Hon. Mr. Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works and Raiiwuys, came to confer with me on the sul,,, . of the proposal m t'e by Mr. A. M. Thom and those whom he represented, fur the reforming of the Bale des Chaleurs Ra'Jway Company— on the conversion into money of the subsidy of 80U,0(X) acres . nd at the rate of 35 cents per acre, making' $280,000— on the payment of ii- subsidy of 4i.'nt,(KX> for the building of the bridge over the Grand Cascapediac River, and tlie payment of ,'\e debts which, according to the law and the fon>going quotations, waa to be made fo^ the protection of the laborers, and of dealers in i isisions against the contractors of tM-i road and to settle fur the isht of way— and also regarding the appointment of a Commissioner to make the payments. I ad ' 1 the H in. Mr. G neau to act with great caution and circumspection in thin matter. I . , lindea nim that in.' construction of this railway had already given consideruble trouble in the county of Bonaveiiture,,nnd I >>ogged of him to see thai all be done according to law, and on the report of the attorney-generai. He told mo that he had the report of the Hui,. Mr. CariL- Langelier, but I pointed ( i to him that this was not the report of the proper officer. He told me he w mid communicate with the Hun, Mr. Robidoux, who was lying ill at the time, and thereupon he took his leav,;. On the 23rd, the Hon Mr. < > ,inean again called on mp, with reference to this matter, informing me that the iinilti of the executive hsid aUop.sd a i "oort on the subject of the Baiedes ''haleurs Rai v c j)any, and anothe ippointinga commissioner to make the payments a .liiorized by 1 . I i ated my advice t^ act with prudence and circumspection, and ho informed me that me'attoi ley-general had reported tu him that everything was in conformity with the law, but that, as he was ill h [iiired a few days to write out his report in its final shape, and he (Hon. Mr. Garneau) assured me that he would see that special instructions were given to the commissioner. On the 23rd, after this interview, I sanctioned two reports of the comn-itteo of the executive, which became the following orders in council : — Copy of 1 April, 1891, a No. 237. The Hon (1891), sets ft April instant. To HoNOURADl Conin We are in Railway if the the managemt complete the n Matapedia to P For the cai shnll pay the c( 1. The ba and its amendn as earned. 2. The sub 1 sub-sec. i, to accepted by the 3. To compl "■lilted by the S am' tl)« proceedt ed clflims, (in ac company ; and if now existing aga company on fiun The 8 lid debi Thom, representi for that purpose, be paid upon aju missioner appoint certificates and af arbitration, and tl bo paid by the pa arbitror after fifte his action shal! b- As a guarante the company vij] of five hundred th Official Correspondence -o* 827 "^ "" '"e ^.irtl Ajril, 18(11. Concerr^ing the Bate des Chaleurs Raihvay. Apnl instant, reading as follows :- '""'' '^"^ ^'•- ^"^ '^^ ^^- Thom, of date the 17th To HoNouKAKLE P. Garneau. Quebec, 17th April, 1891. Commimrioner qf Public Works Sir. "■^^^^fmier, ad interim. B..:-^^StS:-:S:;---;;.- ^^^^^^ «. the ... .. Ohale.. i==^::;Ci^-d.t^~ Matapedk to Paspebiac, and thence to CcbL" " '""^ '''' ^^««'"^'«'-- ^«92, ^rom For the carrying out of the present 11^, ^°°" " -••-"^stances will permit. «hall pay the company :- ^ '''"' P™POsUion ,t ,« understood that the Government and L :j;^JtnS :l;5^£■^2: C:' tX T'T ""''''-' '' ^^«*- ^^'^P. 23 «« earned. P' • '• «««• 1^. amounting to 1260.000 to be pa/able .cceplecl l,y the Uoveri„„„,. " " '""'«'' "'=' '!« Grand r,„capedi, i. fid.hed Td" «.T.t:,t sun.- 1 '::.*? "••■-««- »o.™« .c. „, .„, '";-' tl^ proceeds thereof shall be ust-d hv 11.^00 Z' I ' '''^-'^^J- •^hall he converted ed clnnns, (in accordant with the abo e Act ) nowexirt ,'" ''"•'' '^^'^'"^'^ ""^ P"-'4 company ; and if any surplus should exist fte . '"■^*'"^'^-'^'"«' the roai or againnt the now exiting against the said road as" b Jl .rZr V''' ««-'»-"t of all claims company on final settlement. ' ""'P'"**' '^ ""^y shall g„ to tl- new The 8 lid debts and claims afior thev sh>.ll i i Thorn representing the company, shall b/.an:;TJ;'.'' "'P''*?^'"^* "^'^ ^'^'•'ifio^l by Mr. for that purpose, and failing such appn.I.atin a luOr '^ "^^ Government be p.ul upon a judgement or arbitrt'rs' report u ^IfJ'' '^ ''''• '''^''""' ^^ey shall m.«s.oner appointed by the Government sin" ac.!!! 1 '"^ '"•"'"'"'• ^^heu the com- certiticates and approbation, then and 1 i'!^ ^ '"'"'" '^"^ ^^'- Thorn refuses hi» arbitration, and the ^I.cision of the a J^ ^1 ^^^^1!'''' T "'"'^''^ ''^^' ^'^ - bo l;a,d by the party against whom t- ■ ,le isTon t dven rAV ^V*"*^ '"^'^ '"'^^"■^«' ^^all arbitror after fifteen days' notice to u n^^ ^ '^^'■- ^ho'" fai s to app.,i„t an his action shall .,.. binding on liH part'i. I ' '° ^°'"'"'-'-- '"'^y then pay the ckim, Z Of five hundreo thousand dolla. (^00,000) whicrsS.re::h::;:edr r ^al Z^ 828 Official Correspondence of b(.n(l9 of another issue of same anjount and valiio in case tho company would -ieem proper to cancel the present ibbub and replace with others or other satiHlKCtory security in luu then^of, il ingdiHtiuctly undcrsto-d that the company will he handed hack the bonds or other security so deponitod on the completion and « (uipmout of the r.md to Pasp-jbiac. The boarl of direc-tors of tho compi.ny under l]u- new oru'anization shall he conipo-.'d as follow.-; .lames Cooper, of Munireal ; J. P. D.iwe«, of Lachine ; Alexatuler Ewing, -f Montreal; Jame^ Williamson, of Montreal ; An«ua M. Thorn, of Montreal ; and two other persons to be namnl by the (ioveromenl. On the sixty miles of the said road comprised between Mettpodia and the bi>; livcr Caacapedia, the company will resume the works as soon as they can take poaaea-ion of that Bection, and on the forty milea ending nt Pasi.ebiac, 8urv(«ya will be comm.'ncod ns roon a« the present proiiosition is accei)ted, and the works will proceed with the utmost diligence. The whole resjjectfully submitted. (Signed), A. M. THOM. And upon the said A. M. Thorn, and the persona in tho name of whom he acta and whom he represents obtaining a transfer of the charter of the Bale des Chalenrs Railway, and Being that the persona mentioned in the propositions aboved cited have the necessiry means to carry out the enterprise, m required by the Statute of Inst session, .'>4 Vic, chap. 88, secticm 1. sub-section J, and freeing that it is in the interests of the Province to accept it, the Honourable Commissioner of Public Worka recommends that the said proposition be accepted aa follows, that is to say :— 1. To re-organize the Bale dea Chaleurs Railway Company. 2. To construct and put in operation on or before the Slat December, 1892, the one hundred miles of the said railway comprised between Metapedia and Paapebiac, and the remainder as far as Gaapd Basin as soon as circumstances will permit. 3. To continue the works on the sixty miles comprised between Metapedia and the river Grand Cascapedia, as soon as the company shall be able to take pos^^essicm of this part of the road, that is to say, as soon as the claims which are not contested shall have been paid; which shall be done at the diligence of the Government between now and the 10th May next, at the latest, but without recourse against the Government in default of such diligence, to commence the exploratic.ns upon the forty miles between the river Grand Cascapedia and Paspebiac, as soon as the proposition shall be accepted, and push them on with the utmost dispatch. 4. That the fust Board of Directors of the said company shall be composed of the following persons : .lames Cooper, of Montreal ; J. P. Dawes, of Lachine ; Alexander Ewnij;, of Montreal; Angus M. Thom, of Montreal ; James Williamson, of Montreal, and ol two persons named by the Government. ^ o. To deposit as a guarantee in the hands of the Government five hundred thousand dollars of debentures or bonds of the company of the present issue or any other satisfactory guarantee with the privilege of exchanging the said debentures or bonds for an eiiual amount of debentures or bonds of any other issue, not to exceed however the actual issue, and of the same value, in case it shall be judged expedient to withdraw the present issue ; which debentures or bonds or other ; .rantees shall be returned by the Government to the compivny as soon as the road shall have been finished to Paspebiac. Olficial Correspondence OX CONDITION 1. Tuiit tho balance, to wit «"(;o()(mi .>»• »v l ■ ,. V.c. chap. 23 and itn anuM.dn./ntrand ^,^ .! vk" ? .'.T *'"""''^'^ ^" "'" «'''^' ^"i'^Hy ^'V 45 I-any m „rn,,ortiu„ as tho san.e shall have be ., Jan!;; ' '''• f'' '*''"" ''^' J'"'^' '« ">« com- I) '1-1 , ,1 , . tttiiiuu aconruiiiif to law Grand Ca«.:aped.a shall l..ve been .on^ct^''^'''"'*'*^'' '" '''^ '"•'''«« -vor the river -c.,uncii, upon a report or the (^;;;::;:::r;j„x^^^^^^ ^^ the Lieutenant-o;:;;^:: 3. That tho Government bind^ itself to nav .1, 01 land, granted by .he statute o4 vL da . «?'"'''''' '"'''''''>' -'' «'^M'^' acres into nioney, which subsidy shall bo ko.abv'tln ' '''"•"" '' «"»'-«e^^tion J, conveUed actual debt, of tho Bale dl. Chale. r I ail way .\ndr™"' ■ ^"'' -'P'-'^"' ^y it to p^y he paynientofallclainiH actually oxistinu a^a „' M ' '"''P'"-'' '*" ""•^- «'"*" ''e, alter the wh-^an render an account - wUXt-S^^J, '^^ — "'^ M. t r^r ;S^::i:r -^^^ .Prov::.. eert.«ed by pose by the Government ; and in defaulf 7s,c " ' 'rti ' T'^'''' ""'"^^ '^' '^at pu^ be panl upon a judgement or report of arb trato.n in ? " ""' '"'^' ''''^^tili.a.e. they /hall the Conmusasoner nan.ed by the Govenm , .? "^ ''' "">' ^''*'"'""t. I" the c««e of refusing his certilicate, then and t eX ' ' hrcT"" ' ''T ""^ °'' ^'^^ ^-'^ ^ . Ttom an arburation and the award of the arbi rat ra 1 rn"d V 'T ''" "^'^'^'"^'^ "^'''^ ^ the change of the party who shall fail • and inZTu , . ^''^*'''' '^"^^ ^^'^ ^o-ts shall be at after fifteen days' notice so t,. do LeComnL '''''*"'^' '^'^°"' "'^"""gan arh itrZ lawful purpose, and his action shad b^bSr;:;;::;nZ^!:if ^'^'" '^ --' ^"^'i Certified, (Signed) GUSTAVE GRExNIER, ^'^"'^ of ^he Executive Coundt No. 238. ' .ilwlv rl^'ir '"^'■°" "^ ^ Commissioner to pay the clai Railway Company, first Apn m«tar.t (18:,;), recommends that Mr. •n.s against the Bale desChaleura The Honourat.le the Commissioner of Public Wort, in t Apn .n«ta.t (18:,;), reconunends that Mr ,? TunZ" '"r"'"'"'^"'" ^^'^^ '-e»t>- Province, be appointed Commissioner to pay tl e dai'i^- "' ' ..^^^^"^'^'-K^gi^trar of the -y Company; in coni;:;^;;;':;^:!: p:s::;?;;:tr ^^^ ?- '- ^^^nr:^z the 23rd April, 1891. Provisions ot the Order in Council number 537 of Certified, (Signed) GUSTAVE GREXIER, Clerk ojthe Executive Cbuucil. 880 Official Correspondence I find that in conformity with the recommendation made by me to Hon. Mr. Garneau, he gave on 24th April, li}91, the following instructions to the commisaionner appointed : — " L. E. 1356, L. E. No. 638. " DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS. " Quebec, 24th April, 1891. " J. C. Langelier, Esq., " Deputy Registrar of the. Province, " Quebec. " Sir, " As you have been appointed special commissioner by Order in Council No. 238, dated the 23rd instant, to pay the claims agninst the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company, in conformity with the Order in Council No. 237, paaaed on the iJrd instant, I think it proper to authorize you to at once examine and verify ./hos^ outstanding claims and to decide which shall be considered as privileged debts legitimately due by the company or by the contracturs of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, or of the sections of this road between the 20th and 70th miles beyond the little River Cascapedia in the direction of Paspebiac, according to the prescriptions and conditions mentioned in the said Order in Council No. 237. And when you will be in a position to give me detailed statements, with documents in support thereof, of the privileged claims*, whether contested or not, payment of which you will be prepared to make in conformity with said Order in Council No. 237, and of the Act therein mentioned, 64 Vict., chap. 88, sec. 1, p. J, I shall place at your disposal, at; you shall want them, the amounts required to pay the privileged claims approved of, or for which a judgment or an award of the arbitrators shall have been given, and this by means of requisitions to be made by the undersigned to the honourable the Provincial Tieaaurer, on the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land converted into money, which subsidy wa.s granted by the statute (paragraph J) lo aid the completion and equipment of the said railway for a distance of 80 miles, as determined in the same statute, on condition that you furnish me, on demand, with a detailed statement, special or general, of the sums which you shall have paid out of the funds so placed at your disposal, with a general report, supported by receipts and vouchers, on the result of your operations ; the whole according to the prescription and conditions see forth in said Order in Council No. 237 and said Act, 54 Vict., chap. 88, sec. 1, par. J. The expenses occasioned by such verification and such privileged claims approved or adjudged to be due shall be taken out of the said subsidy converted into money and paid to you on presentation of your account in detail. " I remain. Sir, " Yours, etc., " P. GARNEAU, " Commisdoner.' Official Correspondence 831 O.. the same dfly, the 24th April ISQI Mr t nu claim, handed into the government against hi R , ^'^''"6'^". gave him the list of amounting $57,073.54, an.l informed h'mthatth'':,^''^'^"'" Railway but not ^lid a^ payments should coirmence. You did. I ' ""'"''^ ^"^"^"^'-^- ^^ forthcoming as soon that about ^0,000 of ,rivileged de t^ em n M T''^ '" ^^'^ «°"-- -« to show to be used to pay the claims foreseen bvheTu.y^T? "^ ""^ ^^^^^^^'^'l '"to money w<^ and completion of the ro.ul. '' "" ''"" ' '^^ ^'^'""ce being destined fo, the hSJZ Between the 23rd and 2Gth Anril th« w ,c matter of the Bale des Chaleuns Railway Hr^oldni^'IbTr^'^" ^''"^^"^^ -'^h me on this to bear upon h.m, that he was required to do th h ^"^^ ^'"'''''^ ^^' ''««»« brought T^-ere made to him of cabling to tl e Hon £ M f " ' T'' '''''^'''^' '^ ^''"^' that threat -sign. I said to him : •' These threa" are^uttL "u/^"' '' "■''"' '''''' ""' ^'^ -clineTto ^bemg the Prmie Minister accredited to It t.n''/^ ' 'hink, that you cannot leave me without an aclvire^w I't ?,, h "''' °' '^^ »«"• ^r- Mercier in all respects with the law." He annemJ ' ^ " " '° ^° '^ *° ''^^i^t and to conform After the recovery of the Hon Mr p i , """ '"'''''" '"^'^ '^"'^ 'e't. ^ ofthe report oftheat^orney-g:::;.,^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ «arneau gave me a copy There is another point which is not Tecia 1 Jn ^ "' *'^'"^«' "^^ '""""•■'"g :-• have been requested to e.xpre.s an opinion Th"^ '" "''" '^"'"'"^^^ but upon whi^h I of the 23rd April, such a one as I shou have el?" ?'* '"'''''"'' *" "'« ^"' '^ i» 'unci Order in Council was passed ? ^^'' '°"''"'-'''' >" had I been present when "he " I have no hesitation in sa vint? f Imt r „^ ■ , of it. I approve of it for two V" o ^"rI" *? "IT '" ^^--^ --1 that I approve importance to take the Baie des Cha,:u.ik"r::itotr", ^'? '' ™^ '"" "^ Si .he second reason, for which I would have Tn !,v e n tL o . '"^"' '''' "''' ^"'"Pany; ofthe parties who compose the Baio des ^^,7^ ^ •''''' '"^''""'=''' ''« the solvenc^^ their unquestioned reputation for t^.riS ness in blft '"v ''T'"''' '' ^-^Kanized. S " ?e or:t7uTrr" ca.yLf its^d^ta" gf' ' '"'' ' '"'"" ^ ^^^-n* .-' lielore the 7th July, 1891 the fTnr. Ar.. n this matter and informed me that he ha^^ receZ? ^ S"' T"" T ^«^'" "'"^ respect to Mmisterjthen in Europe), in which thp W? V ^' ^'""^ *e honorable the Primp tion concerning the Bafe L ^:^^Zc^:Zly'"''^' '''''''' ^^^"^ ^^- *«- After what is premised I was iust,fipd in f^lp '"."P''"^- to ^vhich I will refer hereinafter w^m'," Silr;?"^' "^ '° ^^e time that certain revelations m the settlement of this matter. ' ''^ *^' g«^'ernment would conform to theUw Incidental to the consideratinn nf » i.-n Company in the Parliameir^^cr/ad^ ^ndTeSel to^th '^ ^^^^ ^'^'^^^^ ««"-y graphs aud Harbors of the Senate on theTth T," u t iJoi ^"^"'^^'"^^ «" Railways, Tele- on the 28th April, 1891, the Hon. Mr Glt;^^'!^^^^^^ provincial trea.surer, signed, ,,ayable to tt ord ^ ofMrT^' '"•"'^*'' "' ^■«'-'- '^"d ^mmissioner appointed under the Order in CouncS No ^38 a .''^'''T"''^ ^'^"*^^''-- ^^e Bank of Canada for the sum of .100,000. pa^'ahron or^bitr^h ^Ji;'* ^ l.^^^f " jcar- 832 Official Correspondence iiig interest at 5 per cent, from the Ist June until payment, and another letter of credit on La Banque Nationale for tht sum of $7r),000, payable ..n or before the lOth-of July, 1891, bearing interest at 5 per c-ont. from the 1st June then next until payment ; that these letter.- of credit were endorsed by the govenmunt c.mmissioner, and that the proceeds thereof were paid to Mr. C. N. Armstrong, contractor of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company. Witni'sses heard before the same committee have also revealed certain circumstances which preceded and followed the issuance of theao letters of credit and the use to which they were put. It was declared under oath that long before the -iSlh April, 1891, probably m the course of Jann.ay preceding, Mr. Ernest Pacaud, editor of the newspaper L'Eledeur. u Quebec, and Mr. C. N. Armstrong met at tlie St. Louis Hotel, in Quebec ; that the last naned party asked Mr. Pacaud whether he thought the G-,vernment would be disposed to nego- tiate with other persons on the subject of the Baie des Ohalt-urs Railway, iu case the nego- tiati(jns then being carried on with Messrs. Johii Macdonald and Cameron should fall through, and Mr. Pacaud answered that he thought so; that about two weeks later Mr. Pacaud informed Mr. Armstrong that the Government was so disp.'sed. That on the evening of the 12th March, Me,srs. Armstrong an.l Pacaud again met at the Windsor Hotel, in Montreal, and agreed to meet c ^ ^he following day on the train gomg from Montreal to New-York. That on the following morning, the 13th, Mr. Armstrong being on a Pullman, had a conversation with Mr. Pacaud about the negotiations already eutered upon ; that Mr. Pacaud thereupon waited upon the members of the Government of the Province of Qut-bec, who were in an official car attached to the same train, the Hon. Messrs. Mercier, Robidoux, Shehyn and Charles Langelier; that, when the train stopped at St. Johns, Mr. Pacaud told Mr. Armstrong that the matter would be arrangt^d satisfictorily as soon aa the Government should be made aware that Messrs. Macdonald and Cameron had withdrawn, but that they had as yet received no positive information on this last point. That after this interview, Mr. Armstrong received a teh-gram from Mr. Pacaud dated at New- York, informing him that if he, Armstrong, wished to see the members of the Government he should come with a member of his syndicate to New York. That on receipt of this telegram Messrs. Armstrong and A. M. Thorn went toNew- York, where they met Mr. Pacaud and Hon. IVLsssrs. Robidoux and Charlej Langelier at the Brunswick Hotel, and that they spoke together of the arrangements to be made with the new syndicate to effect the construction and completion of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ; that it w«« then understood that, iinles.s further news was had of Messrs. Macdon- ald and Cameron, or if no arrangement was made with them within a few days, the Government would be disposed to deal with the new syndicate. That, upon his return to Montreal, Mr. Armstrong received a telegram from Mr. Pacaud within the delay agreed upon, informing him that t!ie Government, having received no nMWs from Monti eal, weie free to trent with the new syndicate. That in the interviews between Me^'8rs. Pacaud and Armstrong, in answer to a question of Mr. Armstr(.ng, Mr. Pacaud informed him that he would undertake to procure a setile- ment of the matter if Mr. Armstrong would give hiiu $100,IK)0. After the issuing of the letters of credit, the letter for $7r),()t)0 was presented for discount to La Banque Nationale. Mr. Gaboury, president of this bank, swears an follows in answer to questioi s put to him : — " Q. You are president of La Banque Nationale and live in Quebec ? " A. Yes. ■■ A. Ye, fo, t?o,00O ' ' '^™""»<>nt "0 TellnsfV,. ""^ "^"'^ *nd proposed this. --^-/^^^^^ A. He was alone. "Q. Now tell us the conversation. CWmt«.a.>.? '^'« ^l'^<^o^-t went to the credit of Mr J r r " A. Yes. I^angeher, Q. Where d„l y„„ „g„ ,h, ^, » »' '« "'" »»ora dep„,i,i„„ ,ay, ,_ ' "» A. I„ .He offlce „nhe B.„,„. i::^^^:^"' "" "■'■»» ' Q- Do you remember how manv , h. \ ^"'■ " A. I think there were foTr ' '"" """ "^^^ ' " Q.. Here they are referred to in exhibit 1^ r- " A. I cannot remenber the amount. ' " ''' '*'"°"'^' ^ "Q. Look at the exhibit? ;; A. I will look a. you please, but I hnow nothin. of it Q. There were three on the 28th April ' A. Yes. " Q- You signed these in the office of U r» " A. Yes. '*" ^''"1"« -Vationaie ? " Q- One w,u, for $.51,7.51, and another for S ' l m„ . " A. Here is how it occurred Mr xZ ' "" ' '""''^'' ^«^ «l«-'»0 :' :^-erwardsyo.signedach:,::tt^i;:----^^^^^^^^^^ 58 834 Official Cwrespondence " Q. And one for $2,25U on the Ist July ? .. A Yes • there was a certain amount kept for interest, and then the «2 250 was kept by the bank in c^e the letter of credit should not be paid on the date it was due. " Q. You checked out the $111.64, the balance of what the bank was willing to advance, at °''"' ' A. Yes, Mr. Lafrance made all the calculations and he agreed with Messrs. Thorn and Armstrong about all these details. " Q When you were there ? " A Yes it was before me. They went there the evening before, and the arrangement o/o„t the following morning. I am not sure, as I bad no interest m it. I had Mr. ZnZ:^'^TeZ^^Z^^^^^ and! did not care about the rest, andthey agreed aboutthe details as they wished. ,., , n " Q. And Mr. Lafrance kept $2,250 to cover the interest in case the letter of credit should not paid ? " A. Yes. .. Q. SO these cheques which we^ have mentioned form the whole of the proceeds of the discount which had gone to your credit ? " A. Yes " The letter of $100,000 hereinabove mentionned, was offered for discount to the Union Bank Mr E E.Webb, the cashier of the said bank, swears as follows :- Mr. Pacaud came to see me at the bank and asked me if we would entertain the discount of the letter of credit for $175,000. " Q. When was that ? " A About the end of April. We had several conversations about the letter of credit, and I fold Wm tia we would entertain it, and the matter was finally divided. I spoke to Mr Gaboury^f La Banque Nationale, and they had decided to take a portion of the etter, x7 aSsfacJory The let'er waa finally divided into two, $100,000 for discount at the Union Bank and $55 000 at the Banque Nationale. After the letters were issued and the matter T-HoH to our board it was decided that we should not make the advances. It was con- :rde'::r:ot*:rtly:^^^^^^^^^ I advised Mr. pacaud of th.. * * * " Q. What was the proposal made to you in regard to a series of entries to be made m your books? .,,,,.. <• " A. Simply that he should have a portion of this money on deposit until the letter of credit was paid, as I have already said. " Q. Was there any proposal made in regard to a series of entries to be made in your books which would not have been true entries ? " A. Well, we considered that discounting the letter of credit without paying out the proceeds was not exactly a correct transaction." " Mr. Barwick .— " I will repeat my question again. Was there a proposal made in regard to a serie. of '•• entries to be made in your books which would not have been true entries ? Offkial Correspondence 886 A. As If they had been Dftvl.' „ . , -.A. t.'° ""' '"■•"'"'"■" "-■ ".nk WOUM „„. ,e„, i...,, , The evidence of Mr J n :A.T„.,e.e..orj;:L?^:v?wr,r™°'' " ^- ^^'•^ tl'echeques endorsed ' „ 7 ^'^' ^°" ^"*^e an appointment ? A. I don't think so. ;;Q. What purpose did you ffo therefor^ "A. No; for my imnr«.«;nn .u °'^*^"''"-^'"S: thccheques ? si- i o.i understood that Mr Cl..-v«ncf - r ^'"'o^se the cheques. f'icaud V '*^'^- ^">yso8tome Lan^elier would pay the mnr,» r , , "P^^^ne money directjto Mr. "M.. «^ud .^, .e .r irC'S: tr„'„^'*"" ^ " «- '- '^. •.00,000,. .„. Q. Show mo the sign he made. P- 886 Official Correspondence " A. I did not carry the sign away with me. It might have been a beckoning with his ■' finger or with his heail ; at all events I understood it was to go into the innet room. •■ (4. You liad been there before ? *» A Yes. " Q. Mr. L tngelier handed you the cheques and Mr. Pacand gave you the sign and you " walked into the umer office with Mr. Pacau I, you canying the i^heques in y.mr hands? " A. Id') not know. I am under the iinpresaion that 1 did. " Q. Did Mr. Pacaud receive these cheques Ironi Mr. Langelier's hands or did you ? " A. I did. I am positive of this point, I w.-nt into tlie other room, endoised the five '• cheques and handed them 10 Mr. Pacaud in the inner room. " Q. Mr. J. C. Laiigelier remaining in the initer room all the time ♦ A. It was not vt-ry long. , •• Q. Did you sign the receipt for «l"r),Oi)!) in Mr. Pacand's ottice ? " A. No, I signed it on the lioth m Mr. Liingeher's ottice." Questi-ncd on the rea=*on for his agreeing to give, out of the «175,(X)0, $1(H),(XK) to Mr. Pacaud, Mi-. Armstrong sai I :— " Q. Why did y»iu pay Mr. Pacaud $l(K>.t>0() ? " A Will, on the prinxjiplu that half a loaf ia better than no bread. In order to get a " settlement so thmJ could get any thing at all out of the moneys I invested in these works " 1 was obliged to tiMiat wkh Mr. Pacaud. " Q. Why were vou obliged to ti;eat with Mr. Pacaud ? " A. Well, he seemed to be the best person to deal with down there. " Q. He was a go-between f " A. Well, that is the best way to put it perhaps. " Q. Had you used Mr. Pacaud !>«fore as an intermediary with the local government ? " A. Well, hardly as an intermediary ; he ha.l|looked after the payment of some subsidies " for me in connection wiih the same road. " Q. How much had you to pay him on these subsidies ? " A. An ordmary commission amounting to 2.J per cent probably. " Q. On how much did you pay Mr. Pacauil 2i per cent ? " A. I do not remember the exact amount, I dare say that the commission pail " amounted probably to Slo.OOO, stretched over two or three years time. " Q. That was before the * 100,000 was paid ? 'A. It had nothing to ilo with the *JliO,000. ,' Q. !?o Mr. Pacaud has cost you*ll.").000 ? " A. Well, if you Uke to put it that way. •' Q. Thi'.t is about it ? •' A. That is about it." ThisopinionofMr. Armstrong seems to have been shared by Mr. John J. Macdonald, •ho being heard as a witness, declares that while negotiating with respect to the sum. ■ matter, he nad figured from pMt experience, that he wouH require «!.50,r00 f..r Mr. Pacaud during the progress of the works, and that he considered Mr. Pacaud as a nec.ssary agent m dealing with the government. i*aaH4i!,m.tri.^2i'il0t:i,, 3iji„, Q^cial Corretpondt nee 837 Wiiiiessos shpw liow Mr p.p., i , under thene circumstances. " ' " ""^'' ^"^" '"' ^'- *l^»«."'00 received f.om Mr. Arn.stron. On the 6th July Mr papn,„i v, . . , " **" T'^ ■ ^" '^« "th Julv a note nf *" n, n :■ f • ^'■'"^''ronff for «J(),00U each, „„.kinir -a no e i,.r which Mr. Pacaud 'and t ^Ho. ''m ''" T ^"^ '^'^ -^"^'-'. ^i^ pi f balancing against the credit of tl.^ ,. ^" ''"^ '•'''"' aide of Mr Pipand', .,nn * mentioned. Onthes.uetv ntJ f '""'' "'" *^-^-^" ""'' ^I.Wof e C^^ Y^^^^^^^^^ On the 15th May, Mr. Pacaud discounted rp''"""''""''''^"'^^'^''^^''^*"'"^. hm. and endorsed by Mr. P. Valliere .or ,S" ,o l.n? ""TT. ^''^^'^'^''^^ '^ ""te .i,„o.I by $20^00 signed by Mr. JX^hrysost6me La, J,^^ by one of the five ch«,u.>« o"^ by Messrs. C. N. Armstrong an 1 Philipp, V- w;e H ■"'"°'" ^^""™i««i">'or, and endorsed were deposited to the credit of Mr Pac^„ l "' ' ^'''''^''^' "'" 'hi« discount. Sll) 7:^.. so of this account ; an I on the s ,me day accoH, " ' "" ""''''' ^"""''^ ^^-n''-""^ to the cr'edit Banaue Nationale, when the abo;^m tSt^ ^0^^ "'" "^"^ ^" the Lhier ^ la cheque dn.w.1 against his account, paid a n ,e „ mT ""\f -'""t'^d, Mr. Pacaud, b^ fc,0(0, for which he himself, the Hon M» . M "" '^^ ^^'^ Mav, amounting to jointly liable to La Banque National" J •Jj!,"'''/, -^1'"'^^ ^""«<^''- -' "thei^we^ cheque drawn against the same accoum a 5Tf ^^V ' "^"'^^ ""'■ ^^''^^^ ^""^^^t. l^^ J.thecheque,f.0,O00. signed by t^rl^r, -rSlSSHS-ri Com^r^S?S;::ir:^r!=^^^^ - - -e d. Chaleurs Kailway subsidies earned. """""' ^""' ""^^'"'^ '" ^he original or re-organized eo,n,.„y for 8ubsid.es earned ; 2. by the debentures ot th '^ P"" "'''^' r«i>-*'''e- '• l>v the pnee^ He had a right, nioreover, a ,er II cl 1 T^ '"''"'" "'' ^'- stipulated the shares of the company. All the s, bs foar ' vh . . ™'^'' • " "•^'^^'^'^ °- '^'^ ^f or paid on his account, there remained notl i.'^ 1,°^ v " .""' ''"'"""^ ^^ Mr. Ami.strong The company in settling Mr. Arnistro,.' "nn l.r ^T/'"' "'^ ^•""P'^"J"« deboutu J. It amounted was "due;" it onlv siJ, T '^^'"•"' *" ■'^''^^t' 'h.t the sum to whic* *^98.m62, " is a corr'ect Vt:u nS Zi::^^^'^'^ '^ ^^ ^«-^ ^'"^^ the'elit tf «how that this sum wa. not exigible in money "^ '""' ''"^' ''^^'"'^■■"•'-'^ "»1" i'l ." to the 0~r r;^:S;:;S — < ^^ ^^^« evidence that th.ng he would not have consented to reduc; t cL^ a^^lX ^^^ - 838 Official Correspondence of his claim reduced, $175,000, subject to the condition of giving $100,000 to Mn Pacaud, he considered he had still made a good bargain. I have not had, Sir, the intention to give, in what precedes, a complete rcsum^ oftliefiicts revealed at the investigation before the Committee of th.> Senate, charged with tlie examination of the bill promoted by the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company in the Parliament of Canada. My only object was to point out some of the salient points of these revelaticns, which have caused me great alarm. I bring particularly to your notice that the mode of raising funds by letters of credit, without the sanction of the representative of the Crpwn, is not recognized by law. By such means, in the present case, the Government drew the sum of $175,000 out of the treasury without having lecourpe to the sanction of the Lieutenant-Governor as the law required. It must be observed that, in this case, no order in council was ever passed autho- rizing the treasurer of the province to withdraw any sum of money from the treasury. The Order in Council No. 237 is merely a conditional acceptance with amendments of the pro- position made by Messrs.Thom and others, with the promise to pay eventually : l.the balance of the subsidy vfited by 45 Vict., ch. 28, and i.s amendments, and 51-52 Vic, ch. 91 ; 2, the subsidy granted for the bridge over the Grand Cascapedia; 3, the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land" converted into money, and to appoint a commissioner to effect, with the approval of Mr. Thorn, or after judicial decision or award of arbitrators, the payment of certain debts of the railway. I find that the mode of bindingthe finances of the Province by means of letters of credit without the sanction of the representative of the Crown, is prejudicial to the publi.i credit. This seems to me to be quite evident from the steps which it was found neceesary to take in order to make use of the letters of credit issued by the Government and the cheques given by its delegate. The Union Bank refused to discount the letter of credit for $100,000, and only consented to hold it for collection. At La Banque du Peuple it became necessary to attach to the cheque ol the government commissioner a note of Mr. Philippe Vallifere, and to give through Hon. Mr. Langelier, a promise that a deposit of $50,000 would be made, out of the proceeds of the loan of $10,000,00 (Dumoiilin, witness), to obtain discount to the amount of $20,000. At La Banque Notionale it became likewise necessary to attach to the cheque of the government commissioner a note of Mr. Ernest Pacaud, endorsed by Mr. Philippe Valli5re, to obtain discount for another sum of $20,000. It would appear that the Government, when paying $175,000 to Mr. Armstrong, made a payment to a person to whom it owed nothing and to whom the Bale d.s Chaleurs Railway Company owBd debentures only ; that in view of the evident intent of the Act 54 Vict., ch. 88, paragraph j., and of your declarations made to th<^ House, the government, even with the consent of the company as re-organized, should not have paid Mr. Armstrong any part of the $280,000 before the company had been entitled to them by works to be performed, the pretensions of Mr. Armstrong not coming withing the category of the debts of which the statute authorized the settlement before the subsidy was earned through works done ; that when it paid Mr. Armstrong the sum of $175,000, the Government paid it to the person against whom creditors of the class mentioned in the statute were to be protected ; and that, at all events, the sum of $100,000 which went to Mr. Pacaud, has deprived by so much, a public enterprise of the subsidy granted it by a vote of the Legislature. Official Corresjmndence a b-;f eTtu^'which Xtel'ltt'dlSflL'^^^^^^^^^^ T\ *.'^ '"'^''^'^ °^ the Province Under the«e oircumatancee, it becomi "Z; u v "" '" '='"'"^"*-- ofthreejudges authorized to hold annttrirrnd"^^^^ Eoyal Con,.i.ion consisting cumstances which preceded, accompanied iS; f ° '^P^'' "P"" ^he facts and cir- under the Act 54 Vict., ch. «8, in To tr Trehir' ^".7"^ '^"^^'^^^'^^ ^^-^^ - o ^^'"P'^"^- ' '* '^''^'^'* *« the Baie des Chaleurs Railway I suggest that this commissinn h« „ , theS.,perior Court; Horr^ is fZI'g °' "' V?"' '''■ ^-"« ^- J"-^"., iudge of Bench ; and the Hon. Mr. Charles Sers Dav d- •'■^? •"' -""''^^ °^ *^« ^ourt of Qufer;, Until further orders I require you .SoVo'f.'^^' "* '^'^ ^^"P^"°^ Court. ^ urgent administration, and I revnli I '^ "'^^ "^'ion of the government to ^m« „f ™ade under the Treasury A^.'^.'^LtrrnC^t T'^r'' ^-"tenTt Go^rno: article 760 of the Revised Statute, of the™nceJm,°r°'''^ ^^^^"^'^ ^""d. unde; of Bucb revocation to whom it may concen, ^"'^''' ""'^ ^ P^^^^ >'°» ^ give notice I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed,) A. R. ANGERS. Lieut- Governor Reference : — Record of the Department of PubhVWr,ri,c ^ r, •, Proceedings of the Committee of hp^f ^'''''"'^'''• presented to the Parliament of Canal by thTBl"!"^;; 7"^ ^he examination of the Bill i Baie ded Chaleurs Railway Company. (Signed,) A. R. ANGERS, Lieut.-Governor. CABINET BV PREMIER MINl'sTRE, Province de Qukbf.c. H0.0URAB1.K A. R. AxoKRs, Q«. Sept. 8, 1891. Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Quebec. May please Your Honour, I »ly JUS. .in.e to .ub™. it to „, ^oWagrZi ^^ .Trj!?; .'" "f'"« '» -■ ' ».■■ B , . ••'•'"^•^ ^spiyassoonaaptwsible. Wr 840 Official Correspondfme I hftve informed Mr. GuBtave Grenier, the clerk of the Executive Council, that you were pleasec] o revoke the powers conferred upon him to e'u;n warrants. Pray accept the assu- ranee ol the high consideration with which I have the honour to be, Your Honour's most humble and obedient servant, (Signed) HONOB^ MERCIER, I'riine Minister. CABINET DU PREMIER MliMSTRE, Province de Quebec. Quebec, Sept. 15. Honourable A. R. Angers, Lieutenant-Governor 0/ the , Province of Quebec. I l>,we the honour to forward you, by my secretary, my reply to your letter of the 7th i-iMant. I have to go to Montreal on Thursday, the 17th instant, to open the exhibitum, and I would like to leave to-night or to-morrow f' - Montreal. However, I Am at Your Honour's disposal, and 1 would be obliged if you cou.a let me know during the course of the afternoon whether I can leave. I will return on Friday, the 18th inst, m the afternoon. Pray accept the assurance of the high consideration w ith which I have the honour to be. Your obedient servant, (Signed), HoNORfe Mercier, Prime Minister. CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE, Province de Quebec. Quebec, September 15th, 1891. May it please Your Honour, On the 8th inst., I had the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter which I received at 11 o'clock in the morning and dated the day before, respectmg the question of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway and to state that I would reply to it as soou as possible. This I hasten to do to-day. Your letter concludes as follows : -^mttemmmm^A Ot/ii:ial ton /lomJence " tJ»u!fer these .Mrcum.tanccH, it in my ,I„ty • •' J' To 'ZZ rr™""" •'" '"^ """^" '"• '^^ «- ^- Chaien. Railw^ • .t«„c,s wh ch pn.c.o.!e,i. accon-pHnie""'!^' ";;;'' 'TT "P"" ^^o facts an, lei, en ra^ under the Act 54 Vict., chap, jst* „ «^ ..^ ' ' " " '"""^'^^ "'« transar- .ons ^ntcro.l into C-mpany, **•"'" '■^'"^«" '« the Kaie d.H Chaleura Railway " I 8nj.'j;(8t tliat this romniissi . the Hnreriur (c.rt ; Hon. Mr. L, n .^!Z^ ""^ "^^ """• ^'•- I'^""'« A. Jettd, jndc^e of Bench ; ,.n,l the Hon. Mr. Clmrlcs ]■. . ,s m ; ,1 ""V 'v' ""'^" "*' '^'^ '"'"''t of Queen's " Until further orders I re Jr, '^ '^'^^'^'^-'"''^'^ ^^^he Superior Conrt. urgen, ndn.inistrati, n. and I ^Lv^i\]^Z^uZ'^,TT''!'"''^ ^ n>ad,. under the Trcn^n,y Act tosjl v.r^"^? '' "'" '>''l»"y ^^ieutottor Governor a.ti.-Jc 765 of the Revi.^ed Statutes oHll - ovine? "^ '^'''"^""''•^ted Reve.iue Fund, ttnder of such revocation to whon, it may concern." ' ''"'^ ^ P'""^' -■"" '" give notice My colleagues and myself have decidPfl f-. limit our action, until fnrther orders to ts ot „ '^^''"• ^°"'' """'"''« ^'"1"^«* ^'"^ nicated Your Honour's order to Mr Gus av! rV ^^'^ nce, and Legislature within as short a delay as 1^^^^^^^ " ^^^'''^ >'"" ^'> convene the the first Sept.. inntant, induced me tomZnAMrT'^^''''' confidential letter of document which you mentione.l iH it '"■"'"■ '^^^' ""*" ^ ^ad received the The information received fmm m.. ««n letter and before the Sena:; In esTi;;L^ c^^^^^^ '^''\ «'^*^^ - ^"- Honour's fully understand the whole trans„ction ' °'"'"'''""' P''^«« >"« ^^ ^ position, I think, to Of course, in speaking of the investigation by the Sennfo ^ a either the jurisdiction of that body in such matters nr ,h ' ." '° ""'^""^ admitting it is a matter of public notoriety and noth^t ml T^k ill' ' "r ''' P-^-^edings ; for me marize the transaction. ^ ^- ^^"' '" ^"^ ^ °0"«ider I should sum- fo.loll^g'lecS '"'^''''^ ^^* ^^^'^' '"«* «^-'" (^^ ^'-toria, chapter 88) contains the u IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) 1.0 2.2 iiJJ_ I - P^ IL25 ii.4 I 1.6 V y] .#.# ^' I ■*<:»: ^"^1^ >^ HlOl Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER. N.Y. MStO (716) 872-4503 I ? „v ,ts alnJ^dll^^t'Tf ^J^r;^'Er^^ ^f statute ofQue^c 45 Vic. chap.. 24. and earned. ^" ' ^^- ^^' amounting to $260,000, to be payable as 1 .ub-Ie'c' rShe 1 *T' '""''' '^ ''^^^ ^''^^"^« '^f ^^« '^' «'-i' -. 54 Vic. chap 88 sec and the proceeds thereof shall be used bV^hp Pnv J' "^-^^c J, shall be converted, in accordance with thp nhnv. f . ^ Government to pay the privileged claims, nanv ln.H?I , u ,?'"'' "'*' "°'" '•'^''*'"e "K'*>"«f ^^e road or against the com for tha purpose, and faihng such approbation and such certificate by Mr. Thon, thevS be paid on a judgment or arbitrator', report in favor of any claimant When the com m,8s.oner appointed by the Government shall accept a claim and M . 'Hiorrefuse h^ ertficate and approbation, then in e.ch case the claimant has an absoirr'ght o an As a guarantee that they will go on with the works, build, complete and run the road hereof, it being d.stinctly undei^tood that the company will be handed back the bonds PHBpebi7c"" '" ^''"*'''"*''"°"P'^''''" '"'^ «"«^^>-^ -'-P'-"' of the .cad to The board of directors of company under the new organization shaP oe composed as fwir'' Cooper of Montreal ; J. P. Dawes, of Lachine ; Alexander Ewing.of Mont mU James Williamson, of Montreal ; Angus M. Thorn, of Montreal, and two othei persons to be named by the Government. ' On the sixty miles of the said road comprised between Metapedia and the big river Cascapedia the company w, 1 resume the works as soon as they can take possesion of that ction, and on the forty miles ending at Paspebiac, surveys will be conunenced as soon L the present proposU.on ,s accepted, and the works will proceed with the utmost diligence Ihe whole respectfnlly submitted. (Signed) A. M. THOM. And upon the said A. M. Thom,»and the persons in the name of whom he acts and whom he represents obtaming a transfer of the charter of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway and seeing that the persons mentioned in the propositions above cited have the necessary 844 Official Correspondence means to cany out the enterprise, as required by the statute of last session, 54 Vic. chap. 88, .eclion 1, sub-section J, and seeing that it is in the interest of the Province to accept it, the Honourable Commissioner of Public Works recommends that the ^aid proposition be accepted as follows, th;it is to say :— 1. Tore-oigaitize the BaiedesChaleurs Railway Company. 2. To construct and put in operation on or beforo Doc..mb.r 31, 1892, the one hundred miles of.the said railway comprised between Metapodia and Paspebiac and the remainder as far as Gaspe Basin as iroon as circumstances will pprmit. 3 To continue the works on the GO miles comprised between Metapedia an I the river Grand Cascapedi,., hs soon as the company shall be able to take possession ot Mr.s part ,,i the road, that is to say as soon as the claims which are not cunte^t.d shall have been paid, which shall bo done at the dili},'once of the Government between now and May IC next at the latest, but without reconrse ai^ainst the Government in default of such ddipenee. lo commence the explorations up..n the 40 miles between the river G>and CaecMp.dia and Paspebiac as soon as the proposition ^hall be accepted, and jHieh them on with the ut.no.t '^''^'f That the first board of directors of the said co.npany shall be composed of the following persons: James Cooper, of Montreal ; .1. P. Dawes, of Lachine; Alexander Rw.ng. of Montreal; Angus M. Thom, of Montreal, James Williamson, of Montreal, and of two Dersons named by the Government. -, . , , . 5 To deposit as a guarantee in the hands of the G. .vernment $500,0(10 ot debentures or bonds of the company of the present issue, or any other satisfactory guarantee with the privilege of exchanging the said debentur.-s or bonds for an equal amount ot debentures or bonds of anv other issue, not to exceed, however, the actual issue and of the same value, in case it shalfbc judged expedient to with.lraw the present issue, which debentures or boiulB or other guarantees shall be returned by the Government to the company as soon as .he road shall have been finished to Paspebiac. ON CONDITION : 1. That the balance, to wit, $260,000, of the subsidies granted to ... .aid railway by 45 Vic, chap. 23 and its amendments, and 51-52 Vic. chap. 91, 8ec.l2, sh.dl be paid to tl.e company in proportion as the Eame shall have been earned according to law. 2. That the subsidy ($.TO,OtM)) tifty thousand dollars, granted by the sta ule 54 \ic., chap. 8H, sec. 1, sub-section I, shall be paid to the company as soon as the bridge oyer the river Grand Cascapedia shall have been constructtd and accepted by the Lieutenant- Governor in Council, upon a report of the Govarnment engineer. 3 That the Government binds itself to pay the crmpany the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land granted by the statute 54 Vic, ch. 88, section 1, sub-section J, converted into money, T-hich subsidy shall be kept by the Government and employed by it to pay the actual debt of the Baied^sOhaleurs Railway ; and the surplus, if any, shall be, alter the P">™ " all claims actually existing against the company, kept by the Govern.nent, which shall render an account thereof to the company in tinal settlement. .-r w. That the said debts and claims, alter they shall have been approved ot and c.^rtifie. bj Mr. A. M. Thom, representing the company, shall be paid by a person named for t mt purpose by the Government, and in default of such approbation and sucli cer ihca es, they shall be paid upon a judgment or report of arbitrate . in favor of any ^''^^''t;. "^^t^?;;;^ of the commissioner named by the Government accepting a claim and of the «^ ^r h^m refusing his certificate, then and in each case the claimant shall have an abso ute r M 1 1 o an liLtion, and the award of the arbitrators shall then declare that the costs ,hal b thecharge of the party who shall fail ; and in default of the said TUo.u naming an arbitialor after 15 days' nc puiposes, and hi Your Honoii Were satislied thi carrying out the Province to acce] 60 mile.-* between company, as le-o as soon as the clii between that dat Your Honoui guarantee for the foOO.OOO of hoods I iiially, Youj between the payn 61-52 Vic, cap. 91, of the bridge ovei to be paid only as 800,000 acres of la the Government h of the latter subsii The difTerenci perfectly evident ; that of the 8l)0,00(J Permit me to is by thoroughly u to give rise to regr The Order in ( acres of land to th company for the 1 'vlien the debts art I need not poi Council, for Your privileged debts a without any distim It is quite avid Your Honour who security for the paj the settlement whi^ should be j aid. Offkial Correspondence 845 after 15 days' notice so du. the com.ni.ssion.T mav n.iv .l.„ .. • * purposes, and his action slmll.|.e binding upon all the pnilies"'" '""' ^"' "" '*'^''"' " Certified. " (Signed) GUSTAVE GRKNIER, " Clerk of the E.r^nitive Council. were^z ^;;x:tS j::r;:x;i;;;::^:^:s^^^ y-- ciedared .hat ^ou carrying.uttheundertakin.as.iu ed r^^^^ T''''''^' "'^'*"« '"^ successfully Province to accept thei. pru .s t ^n't 1 his olr in P ' "l"" '" /'^'^ "^^^^^'«^ «'' "'« 60 miles hetween Mctapedia and Grand Rh^r C^sclr T'^^ ""^'" '''"' '^'' ^'"^ »» ^^'^ comp,.ny, a. re-organi.ed shall hav-' ? l. Cascapecha .shall be continued as soon as the as soon a. the claims n^t^ on ts .^^ ^'^ ^^'"^ ^^ "'' "'^ ''^"' '^^^ i-^ to s.y between that date and tne lOtrof M.ly at the Ltest" ''^""'^ of theGovernn.ent .arlzsr;:l:^:r:a.^:^r :,:X ut T ;?""r^' -r '« - -^^'-^ «,mO()()ofl.ondsordel.enturesofth,. company the hands of the Oovemn.ent of 1 inally, Your Honour will nlpam* rpn,,.rb tu \- .■ between the payment of the Z!oiZ' of 'iSi ' ^"'"Ti: "?'^*^ ^'^ ""^ «^^'«'- i" Council 51-52 Vic, cap. 91, as well as the 5 0(.0 ( v tt^sand d',1 1 ' >''" ^'' /' ^'"'- ^^P' ^« ^^^ of the bridge over Grand R.ver Ca.scapl a t ZZ -t v^''^ ^'''T'^, *'"' '^" ''instruction to be paid only as they are earned bvEcam^; o^ of th '' '''^PV^V^'",^' ""'-^"''^^ *^« 80O,O()O acres of land which is to be ;. Ji.^ *' '"' ^'"""^'^ '^"'^ the s.ibsi.ly of the Government ha ing tTaccount tVthn'^' '" '''''V'' '^'""'^ "^' '^« ^'^"^'^y «0"'Pany of the latter subsidy rJnaiSX^;!';:::''"^' "' "" «"'^' «^"'-"-' ^'^ 'he su'rplu. perf^;Sr;:rrfi.:;t:rr;tf;isSV^^ that of the m,m acres has to be paW at once ^ "^ ^' ^^'" "' ^« ^""«^' ^^ile ia ^y^-:!^; uiis^TzrSiS^^^^ ?i °^ -f ^^^ ^'»'— ^^ '^ to give rise to regrettable confusion. '""''^^^'"'^^^"'^'"'^""Jerstandings calculated acre con,pany for the balance, if a.,y, not we he wort t ^^''""'•"'»^'"* to account to tne when the debts are paid. ' ''°''' ^'^ ^^'^'^ ^"'•^^"J'y performed, but I need not point out the difference which exists h«tnr«.» ,u » . It 18 quite evident that those who drafted tliP n,.. ,inc in f„„h„a„c of the .^Sl!^^:^^::^:^^^ ; M„fa,l»„o and Son, and «d company , h"X aiiL '! ""°'™"* «""'• "•'Henry collecting ,nch claim. *^ authorized to u.e name in enforcing or " *'l!°«'i •' Quebec, thi« 28th day of April, 1891. "(Signed), C. N. AKMSTEONQ.' £ 848 Official ( orresponiience Such Your Honor, is the whole of thw matter of the Bnie des Chaleurs Railway in 8» far as the' Government is concerned. It is fully establiBhed by all that prece. es that every- thing that has been done is legal, in conformity with the statute and the Orders m Council approved by you. You were good enough to recommend Mr. Garneau (pat'e <1 ot your letter) to .ee that everylhinK wa« done according to law and on the report of the Attor.^y General and yon add that Mr. G-rneau told you that he would communicate with Mr Robidoux who was .1 at the lime • that on Ap.il 23rd Mr. Garneau informed you that the Att. rney General hn.l re, orted to him that everything was according to law. Mr. Garneau, theretoie, under your din ction, took all the necessary precautious as to the legal «ido of the question. I may add without fear of conMadictiou that the action ui the Government, u. this mat- ter is perlectly honourable mid in the public interest. ' Public inter, st required that this road be built within the shortest possible delay ; both the Federal and the Piovinchd Governments had admitted this by having considerable subsidies vnted, which unfortunately have been expended without any very apparent results for the undertaking. Whenever this question was discussed before the Legislative Assembly ot Quebec, the members were unanimous i.. voting new appropriations, and in stating th'At the Province should make great .acritices to assure the eoustruclion ».f the road, and the citations which Your Honour has been g. kkI enough to make in your letter of the Wor.ls which I pronounced on the subject on variou, occasions, showed thai I was but the interpreter ot the wishes o all the members in recommending that further sacrifices be made tor the object. 1 his r,.a< runs through the whole of Gaspesia. mi immense tract of c.untry with a ncli soil splendid forests which are the property of the Province, and peopled by an intelligent and laborious uopulatiun. Every one ha« long been convinced that this ro .d starting trora the lutercolonia at Metai.edia and running as far as oeean navigation, would offer inappreciable commercial advantages not only to G .spes.a but also to the whole of Canada, while giving an immense additional value to the C.uwu Lands and developing colonization. Its rivers and its lakes teeming with tish attract a host of wealthy people who pass the summer there and spend a considerable amount of money. The construction of this railway which was so ardently desired had been arrested for two years by the i.np..lency of the eurapaiiy and its notorious state ot insolvency. And as its shareholders and directors refused to give up their charte.s f. persons who were able to linish the work, tbe Government thought proper Imit session te get itselt authorize J to cancel the charter of this company, amongst others, if U were necessary. I am convinced that if this power had not been giv.'u to the Executive by the Legis- lature of the Province, the old shareholders and directors wonld never have consente.i to make over their rights to Mr. Cooper and the others, and that they would have remained as permanent and insurmountable obstacles to the construction of the railway which was admitted to be in the public interest, and for which the Parliament of Canada and the Legi.slaturo of Quebec had already made such great sacnHces. Fearing that their charter would be cancelled together with all the inevitable a::.l legitimate consequences thereof, Mr. RobitaiUe and the others preferred to sell then- nghts to Messrs Cooper et al., who took their places both as shareholder and as directors ot the comnany It is with the latter that the Government has had dealings : it is by taeni tiuu the work is actually being done, and it is thanks to them and to the action of your Govern- ment, that the construction of that railway is now assured. H0N00RAB1.E Ho Ogkial Correspondence Your Honour lias but to fflancp «♦ n ~^ ~^^====== work day and niulit t ^ '''^''"' ^'^""P« >t h^s place.l itself in „ „„ ■*• order. "'"'" '' '"^'^ ^^P«--' tho fir«t Cu a„i,es he oad .^""" V ^"^'^ "" ^he Thfi «....!.. „..„_,. ,. ' '*'*^ ""•' P"' ^f'"» i" running Honourable Honors Mkrcikr ' ^''^'^^''' ®^P'^"'^'er 9th, 1891. Prime Minuter. Sir, I have the honor, &c., (Signed) J.GAGN6, As regards the nrohitv of tho tro„ •• . Priest. 54 I ■ 850 O^ial Correspondence «,. A,™«,o„g evo„'I,-,.„. .h.. .1-c Gov.™-,™, .nccod .ho be. p<»i.... .—Cio" investigation : Bi/ the Hon. Mr. Langelier .— • • .. Q. D„™g .bo nego.i..io» «hich took pl.c. ^^J^Z^™ brrd^'yl^SS: " improper in these negotiations ? "AT have no knowledge of it. . .. t ihe Whole thing then was conducted in a business-like manner, as .etweenbu.ness ''-r::r^;r::er.kingxh^as.au^^^^ .. syndicate free of debt or l>tigation,and thatthenewsjnd^ate w «^ ^,« to secure .. ,'as organized, was to take up ^^J^J^-^^J^^'^^^^^^^^^^^^^ personally and through my con- .. a debt I was afaid I was going to ^^^'^^^^ r^ t , $^2 L. I saw it was going to be lo«t .. nection with the firm of cooper Fa>rm^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^ ,,,f .. by litigation and wrecking tha the ""oad had been le« V ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^.^^^ o Xch was very bad, and the rolling stcK^k which I h^lur^s ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ .. exposed to all weathers ^^^J^^S gatil Vr^ng to ruin the whole chance of .. and never gf .- P-'/^ f^^ " , ,'f ^^^'j d'to the bes't of my endeavours Mr John J. .. getting -y;^""^;;;^ °^ Xetl'. IZl of mme. and I begged and and boseeched h.m " McDonald to take it up. He was a ir ^ ^ ^^^■^^ ^^ he was going to .. to organize a syndicate, and I got '^'>^;j^;^^;f *\"^^\^ . if ,^,, go to England and leave "England and would abaiKlon the whol^^^^^^^^ Xanize'a syndicate to take it over. Mheroadintheshapei^^ 18 I hal en^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ,, y,, ,,d given me the :: SlirXT TZmITZ. ILl^e, with an tUs scandal and disgrace, such as " appears in the papers. By Hon. Mr. Miller :— n > vr.li moan the Pacaud scandal ? By the Hon. Mr. LangeHer .— . . , , .< A. I do not quite understand your question. Official Correspondence Q. Your interviews if r ..^j ■■ A. N„ Sir """■"' •«' »•»" "'«»" the ....le- ■■ A. Not .„ " ' '""^"""^ «'»>•« setting „„«^i„, , ,, Q- He oever . poke t„ ,.„„„,.„,„, « rsi "-" - -- «;-.^^^^^^^^^^^ -«.-ea ,i. ., -<» i. w.„ i. ..., ,, „,. ,„„^^^,, ^^^^ ^,^^ _ '"^ *- ."-Vie. „,. .dv.0, I^„i,„ ,i„ „,„„ r„ „ .He, „,^,. ^„^ ^^^^^^^ .^ ^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ Q.Vo„ev.rhe„d„f.,.„hi„„„p„p,,^,„., Finally, Mr. Ar„,Mr„„g„„,p^, 22,^ Bn Jfon. Mr. Langelur :— „ J«. A.U»„..r..n..„,„„„,.i..,^,^„„,^^„„,„^ ^,^^___ ^^ ^ ^^ •« J.t:r.r-""~". -.-«., ..re .re ,«. >,„. ... , ,, "-f;'""""™""'-"'-^°'--'—ui„ .,.«.,. _ J: 'KHi; i* ' I'M] ' I Official Cirrresfiondence " Q. Had the Governmenl anything to do witl. the Hettlcment of the chum ? .•A \',.thiiiL' whatever J'xcei.t tlio pay imint ol tho .uiioiint. .. q! "vtt ;'\,tu; to p,.y to'Mr. .'acau. vva« not ibv netthngadahn a.a.nnt the^overu- " A. I hnd no chiim apainst the Govfinnient at all. " Ci. What you did ,.ay to Mr. IMcaud nu»t have l-ee.. paid to .ctlle your cl.um w.th " the iiL-wHyidifatc? "A It was my claim against the company. The .,ew syndicate d.d not ex.«t...... .. Q. Do you think that the Government paid too nu.ch to the company lor doing the " work they have undertaken ? " A No I think it was a pertectly good businexa anangement. .. o" Did anv member of the Governm.nt, ^« exactionofwhichhe wasthe "'"Your Honour sums up the evidence given before the Senate Committee ;v;th reference Youi "°"°"'f ,f ft^p$ioO,(H)0 by Mr. Pacaud, and seems to think that tho To :%TdTy'M'. V^^r^eil'tLe made^.y him and endor..ed by the Honourable mIis C A. P. Pelletier, Francois Lan.elier, Charles Langelier and myself. In"this connection, it i. important that Your Honour should not lose sight of the f ut ihfltalthrgh the above mentioned persons Were joihtly and severally responsible for the ZVliT^eZies,^ the sole promisor; that the p.ocejs ot th e no^ were nrit intended for personal ,.urpo8es nor for purposes contlected with the H^rnTth^ Province of Quebec; hut that, with the exception of one ..r two, the noes politics ot the /!°3'J °' 'J,-^^^ ' ,y deposits lor oOMtestatioUs of Fe„ Mr. Lan^folier a.ul myself. " '" ''^ "«^'' '" P'-y the .lel-ts of Mr. Mercif., " }fr. linru'iik : — •' Hon. Mr. PellHier ;— The iiroeeefis were nnf iwo^i * . ;; they had nothin, to ,io wUh h e ctS Twi'iT'""': ''''".■ ^^^ •^"^ --.. that over, it wa« expected that a roo." n!m election '"'' ,"^ "''" '^' ^'•"^•"""'' ^'"-e many counter contestation, and. of ;:L/:r^^ TT' '"'' '^ «""J defeated, were interested, h„t had not thn n ! , • '"'/''"'"'- ^vhether elected or ;; the Treasury Department, a« th ^ T, , ,:: ? J, ^^f''' 'K« "^'> -"'« - t,,e court or in ' cases, I endeavored to help mv frien.I ' , , ™''' "'''' ^^ *" '"■^"-V '>'her leaving fnr Europe, expecHn^'thi^ w' i„ e^ , •^i;^;:^ T'", ""1 '''■ '''''■''^' '-'^>- "o he sure that it was four notes, endorse.] i.lankil ' "^' ''"'''' '^''*'^^' "■• ^ '^''"'^ • to help our friends make these d;posits I k ' 1 h,' T "''' ''""''' ''''T'"-^ '"""ey to "and these amounts were raised for a ffood.nn,? v'" "'''T ""'" '^'y '"^''^ reriui.ed "theahseneeofMr. Mercier vefilX, '','""' ''",'' ^"""'«r contestatio, . In • ; anything of then, afterwar.ls. The 1 ^ at 1^:2 h"\ "1 """'' ''"'' ^ "-•-• -- I etuions and counter contestation/in the ^ouS -• '' ""'' "'''' ''"^ '"-^^i"^' '^ese " By Hon. Mr. Miller .•— " Q. In whose hands did this money go ? " A. I never saw a dollar of it. " Q. Then, how do you know how it was used ? ;; A. My friends said they got it for this purpose, as tar .. I am able to say. y. You believe it was used for that purpose ? " A. I not only believe, I am positive. 854 Official Correspondence " By Hon. Mr. Kuulback :— " Q. How were they paid ? " A. It. was not expected they would have to be paid. " renewed until the contestiitions were over. We expected they would be Q- " By Hon. Mr. McCallum ;— " Q. I think you said Mr. Mercier left these notes in blank ; what are we to understand " by that ? " A. I say he endorsed the notes in blank ; the amount was not put on. Mr. Pacaud's name was not on it, then ? No. I had the blank endorsements ; he left me the blanks endorsed and we filled " up the notes afterwards. He simply left the blank paper with the endorsement on it. " By Hon. Mr. Boulton : — " Q. You say the amount was left blank ? " A. I say it was a blank paper on which Mr. Mercier had put his name as endorser in " case we would want it." At page 23 of your letter, Your Honor says : " On the same day (May 15) Mr. Pacaud bought, by a cheque drawn agaist the same " amount, a bill of exchange on Paris, in favor of Hon. Mr. Mercier to the amount of " 15,000.00, which yielded 25,500 francs." The evidence of Mr. Lafrance, the cashier of La Banque Nationale at Quebec (page 77-78), established that these $5,000.00 were ti.ken out of the proceeds of a note of Mr. Pacaud's endorsed by Mr. Valliere and secured by one of the cheques which Your Honour mentions. On the other hard, I am informed that this amount was raised by means of one of the blank forms signed by me which I had left with Senator Pelletier before my departure for Europe. I have not had an opportunity (,'f ascertaining which of these two versions is the correct one. But in any case I affirm that, being in Europe imd finding that I wanted that amount, I asked for it, being convinced that it could be raised on one of the signed blank forms which . I had left, and of course with the intention ofpayingnry>'elf the commercial paper employed to procure that amount for me, as it was for personal expenses. I further affirm that when I asked for that sum, Iwas igno'-ant, and I remained ignorant long after, of the fact that that transaction of the Baie des Chaleurs "Railway had been effected, and that I only heard, some time after my return to Canada frnm the report of the proceedings of the Senate published in the newspapers, that Mr. Pucaud had obtained n sum of $100,000 or any other sum. At page 15 of your letter Your Honour mentions a conversation which you liad between April 23 and 26 last with Mr. Garneau, the acting Premier, in which he told you " that strong presstire was being brought to bear upon him ; that he was required to do things which were repugnant to him ; that threats were made to him of cabling to the Hon. Mr. Mercier, and he added that he was inclined to resign." I asked Mr. Garneau, my colleague, lor explanations on this point and he tells me that he thinks Your Hoiiour gives his words pretty exactly, but that without explanation they might give ris^e to a different impression than that which he wished to convey. Mr. Garneau calls my attention to the fact that he was then acting Premier, acting Treasurer and Com- missioner of Public Works ; that consequently he had a three-fold responsibility, which Honourable J Official (correspondence 855 obtained «ati8lactory security and th , pilTo "[' Z.?^'' °" '^"^ '' ^'"'^^ " ""'" ^'^ had colleague, exacted as well as himse bu Z n ^^""^"^^-General, which moreover my debentures to the amount or S5()0 0,0 be W^^ ''" h.vd obtained the deposit of at his ease and thought the transaction oofd'e ZTT 'V'^ ^'"'^ ^«"^' '^^ ''^^'^"-'^ «ven adds that he informed Your Honour otL^ at n, '''''^°"* ^""^^^- ^^^- G^™^'^" Mr. Garneau especially desires it .'Li u '"'^'^<^'^"™^ interview, being brought to befr on him he did t visru'tnt''' "?'^''"^ '^"' ^'''""^ '"— -- undue pressure; but that, having bleUt^:^,''^^^^^^^^^ "' ^"« ""''^^f^'' «' i^ew syndicate without coming to any CO cK^^^^^^ '^°'- ^^^••^™1 ^"J'^ with the Mr. Thorn, who represented the synlatf^^ V !-''-''"^' "^°"^^"' threatened by the matter entirely abandoned, Xhet- so '^^^ ^-^"^^^ ^^ ''-'^- off and were convinced that the transaction was an adv,.! ' "°"';!'S"*^« '" ^he ministry, who would not be wise to lose such an exceUen tor tn "f "/'"" '°'" ^'''''''''^' '"'^ him that it road within a short delay. ' opportunity of assuring the construction of the 8eem8rre"Le\eV'bTstpn;ofonhr.^^^^^^^^ ^'°" ^^' ^^'« acting Premier is, it wished to complete all this transact om^W Hon 1 ^t' ^''' "'''^' ^" ^°"''"^'^d and Mr. Garneau kept you posted as to everyth W S . ! , ' ? f^ yourself in your letter that suited you whenever he was embarrXd So Z ?r' '^""^'' '™' '"'^"^^ '" ^^ve con- him yourself, and to contribute towards doinTawnv J-*!;, ,"•* you deemed proper to rc-assure Your Honour, (at page 6 of vouTletf.r7 ^ ^ u'^ '"' ^^^«'t'"ions. General, Mr. RobidLf d!ted ApTirS,' Si^aVSor: '^^^"^' "^ ^'^^ ^"^^^ Honourable Pierre Garneau, Commiadoner of Public Works, Quebec. .esslf:;^:^^^::^^,:^];-;;;^--^^ ^o^-y proceed to busi- leu .ilway. Langelier wiU tell you exa i • Z '." ' ? ?"''' "' '''' ""'''' '*- ^^^ of M. .rfercier. I am informed thlHu ^d la^ i.t tis' ll'" "P°\^^'^-e the .leparture interests of the enterprise and of the Province '""^ •'^ Prejudicial to the (Signed), J. E. ROBIDOUX. Although I cannot see the bearing of this citation T nn, h , • give you every possible explanation, thougltrner to 'i 7' p^^ ^" '"^' ^""^'^^y *« cumst^ices this despatch was sent, and hi aS/wrthafh ^°'"^'«'^^, ""-^^^ >^hat cir- by serious illness. During that illness Hon Tc\ZT f """' '°''^'""^ *° ^*« house to see him and consult with him o. the p n ^ al m ttT "' r.'"' ^*^'^"^"' «°°^«'«°'' converging about the Baie dos Ohaleu.s mi ' wU M p'" "°''' *^' ^'^'^"«^- ^^'^^ points. Mr. Robidoux led Mr. Garneau ohon Mb! ^ ^'' f;?'''^" '^'"' discussing all the at the meeting of the Cabinet, wich'as o b ^ " T"'? ""' "'^" ^""'^^ ^« ^e present On that day. Mr. Robidoux's health dM.o a owr^o'^-' f ''"If '<'«--• ^prii 17. 80_he sent the above telegram to Mr.-Garne. u T t! \ '"''"'^ "' ^^^"^hec, Ppnuon of Mr. Robidoux. who. .om th^lliitf^d S^d 21:^11:^ 856 Official Correspondence otlieis of his colleagues, thought it was important that the matter bo concluded at once lo i^llow the reorganized company to commence woik in the spring. Before reaching the conclusions of your letter, which I cited at the beginning' of this one. Your Honour makes the toUowing remark : " There would teem to exist, between the Government and the creditora of the Proviiice, a barrier tit which tribute is levied before justice is done to claimants." I am quite sure that Your Honour has not made this assertion without weighing the whole extent of its bearing and, if yon were convinced th it such a barrier existed, it would be not only your right but even your duty to a,<8ist mi' in makins: it kn'.wn, in having it removed and punishing those who might have set it uf> and made use of it for pen-onal ends to the detriment of the fiuhlic interest. As for nie I need not tell you that I am ignorant of the existence of such a barrier. At page 26 of your letter. Your Honor says : " It would appear that the Government, when pnying the « 1 75,000 to Mr. Armstrong made a payment to a perecai to whom it owed nothing and t^ whom the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company owed debentures only ; that in view of the .-vident intent of the Act 54 Vic., chap. 88, paragraph j. and of your declarations made to tlie House, the Government even with the consent of the company as reorganised, should not have i>aid Mr. Armstrong any part of the $280,000 before the company had been entitl. d to them by works to be per- formed, the pretensions of Mr. Armstrong not coming within the categoiy of the debts of which the statute authorized the settlement before the subsidy was earned through work done ; that, when it caid Mr. Armstrong the sum of $175,(100 the Government paid it to the person against whom' ci editors of the class mentioned in the statute where to be protected ; and that, at all events, the sum of $100,000, which went to Mr. Pacaud, has deprived, by so much, a public enterprise olthe subsidy granted it by a vote of tlie Legislature. " I have already shown that Mr. Armstrong's claim had been admitted by the company's engineer, Mr. Light, and approved by the former directors to the amount of $298,943.62. 1 have also shown that Mr. Langelier, the Government commissioner, was obliged to i,ay all the claims made against the company and admitted by Mr. Thorn as representing the latter, and that he had consented to the payment of the $175,000, the reduced amount of Mr. Armstrong's claim, it was Mr. Langeiier's duty to pay. It is not necessary that I should revert to these various points. I wish to consider Your Honour's assertion under another aapect with the hope of getting you to admit the conclusions which I have already drawn in that respect. The legitimacy of Mr. Armstrong's claim is established by the evidence of Mr. Light (page 105)", and also by that of Mr. Armstrong (p. 217) and of Mr. Thom (pp 193 and 194.) Let us first cite Mr. Light's evidence, the engineer of the Government and of the company. This ia what he says (page 100). " By Mr. Banvick : — " Q. I i^lace in your hand exihit 5, which is a statement of account between the Baie " des Chaleurs Railway Company and Mr. Armstrong, with a certificate of balance coming to " Mr. Armstrong in accordance with the terms of his contract. At the top of the exhibit Official Correspondf, nee 867 com,,any. You notice the word " ,lue " is stnS t ' ' "" "'' '^'^ '""'^"^•^ ^^-^"^ '^'^ " A. Yc8. "' ■ " Q. You heard the exnlanatinn fi,o» *u . ':i.e wrote in«toa,. the,so t'J,?^^^,';; ^f and that remaining unpaid r • <-. lu. t htatrniciit ot e^tinlate of wori< done and '■ A. Yt.s." It i.x not noccssarv to cite Air Tl ' claim, he admits if, l,ut dncs n^t cuZ l^u!^yT' T':''^^'' exHnn'ning Mr. Armstrong's whole ha. been shown above. But whi a,, i^;:'T' V ''' '"''"•"' ^"^ *^"'^'""^»- "« '^^^^ u. prmczple, Your Honour says that it is n 1 lu . ''""""■"^^' "'' ''' Armstrong's claim theworkwascompleted,i„debentures^ *-"""'" .t wa. payable only, when If I properly understand Your Honnn,-'- ,...„, •.• • ernment paid the n7r,,m to Mr T 1,^:" r'V'"'"^ ■'^^'^' '" ^'"^ The Gov- company owed only debentures after S fti , „ ' the "\ "'""^^ ""' *" ^'^°"' ^^^^ that no portion of the «-80,000, reprosentinrtle 2 , "^ '"""^ '"outioned in his contract; consequently have been employed U^U^V^^^ui^S-l *'"'""" '^^^^ "^ '-^. «h"»'d paid out of that appropriation an.l Ji alh l ' '"' '""'""' ^"« "^ t'^««e to be deprived a public undertaking «; so much oHts siltlv '''"'"^ ^"'^ '" '^'•- ^--"^ ^^e Arm^X:c;ii;n.;r:i;i;tr::.rr 'c^rr'"^^ "'^ -^ -^ -^^^- - nor to discuss u, and Armstrong ms never cJm ,'""" ,'■ "^^"^""-J-lo'^ ^"3 claim All this is clearly shown by the cUationll hll^^L h^ :':;S;S:: "'^ '^^^^""'^"• conse;:S;:;^:^/:-^-n::;t\.:^^^^^ «'"^'» - -ot due ana completed. T.hey are the e.xpress elS^i" ^^ \ tt^r.' T'^^" '^' ^''"'^^ ^"'^^ ^^^ Armstrong. But this contract might have b. Pn n o ■ , ''^"''''''" the company and Providing it was done without -lefrat i ^ e fghts o TfC ^'^-""'-cting parties, et al, becoming the sliareholders and directors of 1. ^ T ^''''- ^^''''''- ^"^I'^r, of the work themselves or to have it\^^^ " n der t ' riT'T '"' r^'"'«^"^° 'he balance Armstrong who had a right, when the wo rw^ on j 1^ "^'^'^^''-^ ^"' -"'« -ith company bearing (irst mortgage (over and ab.^v 'tir^ ' ''""""^ '" <'e>'entures of the, of $298,943.02 A settlement w s d ,e n ' nl ' T '" "^^ '''''' ""^ ^'^'^ ->™ Armstrongthatthelatterhadposses ion of the !,?""■-; ""^'"'''" '^'^ ^^-^'P^ny and satisfied, and, on the other hauKlZs clon r It al" 'n'"" '""' '' -er.onlylf he were touch the new sub..idy unless thev go plsesS o H ' '"r ^° "" ^'^^ '''<'*^ ^^''^ and of the original contract were chanS^tTrM?Ar V ''"' '^^^" ''^'^* '^e terms 868 Official Correspondence certified Mr. Armstrong's account for that amount, Mr. Langelier, the Government Com- missioner, had nothing to do but to pay, and tliis is what he did. Your Honour's assertion that no part of the $280,000 representing the new sutsidy ol 800,000 acres of land should consequently have been employed in i-aying this claim, whuh was not one of those to be paid out of this appropriation, does not soem to me to be exact in law, if you will allow me to say so with all the respect due to your opinion. In effect, I have shown it above. From the momisnt that the claim was admitted by the Company and that it was certified by Mr. Thorn, it became due and exigible and it had, under the terms of the Order in Council No. '237 of April 23, 1891, to be paid by Mr. Langelier. It seems to me t a I need not insist on this point ; what precedes, as well as what has just been said, is suiiicient. Finally, Your Honour says that thj sum of *100,000 which went to Mr. Pacaud has deprived by so much a public enterprise of its subsidy. The assertion would be perfectly exact if these $100,000 had not been taken from the amount due by the. company to Armstrong, and which the Government were obliged to pay, as has just been shown. But from the moment these $100,000 are taken from the $175,000 paid to Mr. Armstrong under the terms of the act and of the order in council, it is not exict to sav tiro those $100,000 deprive a public underataking of so much of its grant. If Armstrotig had kept these $100,000 himslf instead of giving them foolishly to Pacaud the position as regards the entreprise would have been the same. AWovJ me, before passing to ant)ther subject, to remind you that there still remain $310,000 of subsidies to pay to complete this undertaking ; $260,000 granted by the Statute of Quebec, 45 Vic. chap. 23 and its slmendments, and 51-52 Vic. chap. 91 section 12, and the $,50,000 granted by the act 54 Vic, chap. 88, sec. 1, para, i, for the construction of the bridge over the Gr.iud Cascapedia ; this sum of $310,000 is not to be p;iid until the work is done to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant-Governor in council. The annexed official statement of Mr. Moreau. an employee of the railway office, shows that out of the subsidy of $280,(H)0 in question there remains in our hands $86,039,17 which shall be paid accoidirig to statute and the order in council, by money warrants which Your Honour will be asked to sign from time to time. At page 25 of your letter, Your Honour siiys : " I find that the mode of landing the finances of the Province by nieans of letters of credit, without the sanction of the representative of the down, is prejudicial to the public credit " I am not prepared to entirely deny ihis aAsertioii of Your Honour, and I think that ttie sooner it would be possible to give up this system the better it would be. But we must not forget that it is rather difficult to call '' letters of credit " the docu- ments issued in the case we iire now dealing with. I have tliem both before me. They are dated April 28th, 1891, and signed by Mr. Gat- neau as acting Premier ami Treasure: . One is addressed to the cashier of the Union Bank of Canada. Quel)cc, and the other to the cashier of La Banque Nationale. Quebec, and authorize those cashiers to advance to Mr. J. Chrysostome Langelier, the commissioner appointed by order in council. No. 238 of April 23rd, 1801, the respective amounts of $100,- 000 and $75,000, under the authority of the order in council No. 237 of April 23rd, (891 , which sums shall be paid on or before July 10th, 1891, out of the subsidy voted by the Act54 Vict., ch. 88, section 1, sub-section j, such pay mo. it 'uing authorized by the said order in council, No. 237, of April 23rd, 1891. Official C6rre)>pondence 859 ine or lenn council, No. 23 ", of April "3 7^ni , Lieutenant-Governor in council Bv ondu. are fu.fi„e., and t'he ^uf^t^:^^! Vour Honour, it i. stated ti;:uhcse pose by the Government. -^t^^tnei, the conmiifsioner appointed for that i^xxt- sign^^^L^'^XTllnS^^ XI T """' '" ^'° "^'^^^-y -'-'er Your Honour had necess money warrants and tht ^ , rjl?"'^ -?'^' ^^^ ^ave had to ask f r the n the treasnry at that moment. at"lo,,s ZZ H ''""'• ^^'^'- ''' '^ere wn.s no money to get the bankers to come and he to d • Y T' °* *^8(),000, and as it was diS s authorized both by law and by the LieT. '"'^^?'i^''^»«« '^'^ «»», the payment of Sh hese two papers, let them be ca'ledwh^tvrr; "'".'•': ^" ^"'""''- ^^^'- «- " - ^ ' jarraniswereissu^dhilUr.rrnt: '"'■;""■ "^''^ ™"^'^' ^^ - ^"'y 10th money cleputy,Mr.Grenier,fortheam;unt"^"?.oI^:S7he"^? "^ *^^^^"^^ '-«' ^^ "r After these fact.s, can it be claimed that ! ^"^' '"''''^ withdrawn, of the representative of the Crown r 'do „ j hi 7'"'"lr''' ^'^'^^^^'^ without the sanction ^nctionod the statute granting tl,eappo,rtn1 ""■ ^''' ''^Pr^^entative of the Gown butmg the appropriation nnd, by hi dnK 'f '* ,T'''°"''^'^ *^« ^"^^' i" '^ouncil distn" requiredtopavtheSiysnno-^ r V ' appointed deputy, issued the innnJ yny "'e^d/^jdoo on July loth la»t '»»uea me money warrants I admit that Mr. Dnmoulin'^ I f, . .r r, *-."W,000 (Dumouhn, witness.) --ain extent, but th^^ ^L^^ S ^s't "SV^^^? 'V ^"^^^^^ '^^^ "--- to positively (patfos 46 and 47) that he wonl V, , ^ ""°" completely overrules it. He savs and even that the promise va n ;r ; .'w,''?''""''^'^.^^ "°^^' ^-"hout such prLS us read the questions and answersTt page 47 '' ''"'"' '"^ '''' ^^e discount. S " By Mr. Barwick :— ■»=«».''iS;:;.sr/.;:r"'' '■'■■■*■■ -» ■-•" - - p™-- or „„ „.,,., ., " Q- If you put this transaction through ? 800 Offu:ial Correspondence " a.lv;mce, but I believe it wa8 not my i.rincipal iva-on; I would havo made the loan .m " account of Mr. VaHifeie being one of our customera. " Q. When Mr. Langelicr gave you the promise, on your asking him, that tho Goverii- " mint would deposit «o(),-" ' ifheeverdidmakesuch?! intt as m?.^^^^^^^^^^ the cmmittee of the Senate I have not read his deposition i,, the officiTl report "'^^^^P'^Pe'-^. ^r I declare that in viT o/r ::t t:s;;;'xS;^srr ^^^^ ^^"-^-^ ^^^^ «-" - ^« --. «-. Tiiken an 1 acknowledged l«efore me at Quebec, this lOtli day of Sen- tember 1891. ^ (Signed), CHS. LANGELIER. (Signed), AL SX.iXDRK CHAUVEAU, J. S. P. Langelier, i,. hi, quality of Government cnmmi..?,?! "' '■"'"'" "',"'■ ■>■ CI>rj»o»i6,ne .be d^icoJ;^l: orfbT.a''rcbtr ''" "^ """""^ '» •"'• ""■- "'-"^ ™ ->"-'■>•, With any o.t — ;Vo"2 1; 'r:f„'t,s;srhrc"''v " " ^'.^"" °'' *'»« - cheek of »20,00l>. "^ ''"™ "" '""•"<" '" "''»"""« the »f„re.aid toer;iSr::^:^;h^s^~^^^^ but that the Hon. Chs. Langelier tTiot nrnmi deposit for his branch of the bank, do his best, but he did not'\trhi..;:e;f lo rnySg"''''"^' ""' '"'^''^'^ '^'^ ''^^ ^e would And I make this solem . dechration conscie itiously believing ihp «.^„ . . . and m virtue of the act , especting extra-judicial oaths. ^ ' '""' '° '"^ ''''^ Taken and aoknowle Iged before me at Quebec, this 10th September,' (Signed) P. VALLIERE. (Signed) ALEXANDRE CHAUVEAU, J. S. P. 862 Official Correspondence Hon. Honohe Mercieb, Quebec. Telegraph. Montreal, September 15th 1891. Leduc, Engineer, telegraphs : Gradirig first 15 miles for track-laying purposes very for- ward, cutting and embankments left narrow to finish by train, works well manned, last five miles vpry light work not touched, principally because contractor wanted to allow farmers time to remove crops, and with sufficient force that light grading would only take a few days. Masonry foimdation and trestling at Grand Cascapedia expect finish in five weeks providing fair weather. Twenty miles rails landed at Levis. Contractor says will do all in his power while weather is favorable but would not provnise to work a day after regular winter weather sets in ; approximate force this day, five hundred men, over hundred and fifty horses. (Signed) .TAMES COOPER. Amount of the grant « 280,000 00 Amount paid on account by Mr. J. C. Langelier, Commissioner, to: 1. Mr. C.N. Armstrong - * 175,000 00 2. To pay privileged debts 41,500 00 Mr. Langelier had still in hand, on July 11, a balance to be ex- pended of 22,539 17 There remains still available in the Treasury a balance of 63,500 00 63,500 00 Total « 280,000 00 Balance to be employed J 86,039 17 Quebec, Sept. 14, 1891. (Signed) E. MOREAU, Director of Railways. May it please Yc Government House, Honourable Mr. Honore Mercier, Prime Minister of Quebec. Quebec, September 15, 1891. Sir, I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of to-day with the expla- nations which I asked for in mine of September 7th instant, with reference to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway matter. My letter of the 7th instant asked you for two things . Ist explanations, and 2ndly your concurrence in the appointment of a Royal Commission composed of three judges with in- Official Corn spondence 863 « i. .fr«u the B.i, .,e. a..<.it.s::^szz '* ""■■ '"'■ "'■ '" •" '■« You say in your letter of to-day ■ to giving Huch explanations araSvva"! f t^ , T "^"T" '" '^'^ ''"^'- ^° -"'''"e-'nyself I have considered your exp]anatir.r.inHf^'.''''^^' """ '' '*"" «econd question." nature to dispense you from LeTm^2"^ ^ ^T " '"'°""'" ^°" '^"^ '^'^ ^"^ "-' of a Commission required by 7y etter oTth h ^^ I t" °'''^ '^PP-intment of the Royal timetotheexplanator/meLrnrmthi^hrslm^ ^'^^^^ ^" ^^^'>' ^" ^- I have the honour to lie, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed), A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant-Governor. CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE, Provinck de Quebec. Quebec, Sept. 15, 1891. Honourable Auguste Real Angers, Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Quebec. May it please Your Honour, mu.. .1.0 consider the i,,convie„ce whio^voiM be „Si ?^ ?"'" '""""»■• «'• the court., when the bar and the nubl c hZ hi,, i f ■* ■"? ™Pl°yi"8 J"*e. out of dekj-. in the adminletratiou of j™t°ce ^ «">"""""">■ """'PLining of th, ^r:eret^r^hT,rS~*^^^^^^ .iu..o,thefo„owh.o„e^:;s--:«-■c--.-tr^^^^^^^^^^ -tf! 864 Official Correspondence Nevertheless, my colleagues and myself are so desirous ..f meetuiK Your Honcrs views and having a full and complote emniry m„do into all the fads connected W.h this tnmsaction of the Bale des Cl.al.ur. Railway, that we are propan.l to consent t,. the ap,uintnu.nt of aroyal commission, since Your Honor stat.-s that my -''P''^"'' ^''"-^ J'" ";• of a nature " to disi-cnse m.- fr..m the immediate consideration ot appointment ot the rojal commission required hy your letter of the 7th inst., " with this reservation, however that I wish to retain my undouhtod riuht to advise you as regards the composition ot th.U eourt, while L'ivinK to your suggestions, in that respeet, all the consideration they deserv... I am in the Council Chamher with most of my cUeagues awaiting any communication Your Honour may he pleased to send me. , . , , . , , .1 Pray accept the assurance of the high consideration with which I have the honour to be. Your ini'St obedient servant, (Signed) HONOR^ MERCIKR, Prime Minister. GovEUNJtEST House, Quebec, September, 16th, 1891. Hon. Honob^ Mekciek, Prime Minister, Quebec. Sir, I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your second letter of yesterday, the loth September instant, which reached me at 5.30 p. m., in answer to the communication which mv secretarv handed you about 4 o'clock tlie same day. _ Tnotice with satisfaction that you renounce the project of having an inquiry made by a eommittee of the Legislative Assembly into the matter of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, Jn" y racqul;Sin my request to concur in the appointment ot.. Royal Commis.on composed of three judges, with instructions to irxvestigate aud "^^P- "P""/- j"^'.^^;^^ ;'^. circumstances which have precede 1, accompanied, given rise to aid toUowed the ti ansae tions, under the Act 54 Vic, ch. 88, in so far as it affects the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ^"Tproposed to vou as members of such commission, the Honorable Justice Jett6, Baby and Davidson. I beg you to let mc know whether you have valid reasons of recusation Against any (me of those gentlemen. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed.) A. R. ANGERS Lieutenent Governor. Official Corrapohdence CABINET IW PREMIER MINISTRE. Province dk QuAbw. QuKBKc, September 16, lygi Honorable Auoustk R^kl Anoers, oiernor oj the Province oj Quebec. May it please Your Honour, Mr. Tach.5 handod me thi« mr. • a joyai i^ommissiDi], jmH r „.iii '""• * consented to thi> or.r,„- . « r? -rio„. ,„,.,.„ „.j ,0 „" :;"'!'.!,? ,° ,"" """>' ^"o" K.^" .y ,1":,!';""'"' Moreover aa I had th v. " "^'''°® la my communication of y e'Lrdal"^ ? hV.".t^\'*°"'"' '^ ^Pf'^'^'ed. my undoubted right to advise Yn„.w^' "^ ^^^ ''""""'^ of stating that I wJ.), ^ . Permit me to sav to Y™, • xi , ""ggested m Offliud CortetiHnukUfi* ^tuMLJiiftri by the House oi Commons, where he had a mujority ; but the proceedines of thia .ZTuTe *^t arreslH by the disallowance ^f the act which gave it power to swear w tncBser L iut- advised Lord Duff,-rin. the b< mor-OenerHl of Canada to cormtUute rherembers of thaU committee a royal commission. Hnd on June 28, 1878, the latter stated that he was prepared to accept the advico of his prime minister in the loll<.wmg words : " On the part of the Crown 1 should have no objection to the otter of the commission, as yea proposed and I think you may with perfect propriety act upon the presumption ihat the members of the committee will accept the charge conHdcd to them." On July 2 1873, 8ir John communicated his deci^on to the chairman ot the committee, but Mess.s. Dori, n and Blake having relused t.. hold an inquiry oul«ide of a committee of the House of Comnums and to form part of the proposed commission, the Governor Ge^ne.al ^as advised by the Cabinet to appoint as commissioners Messrs. Day, PoUette and Gow.m, which was done by order in council. The words pronounced by Lord Dutferin in answer to a memorial from a certain number of members of the H' use of Commons give great force to this precedent, and clearly explain the constitutional theory in this respc^ct, as understood and practised by statesmen in *^"^The Question was to know whether the Governor General would refuse to prorogue Parliament on the advice of his ministers, who .vere then under a very serious accusation. ^'''''-S^"en^pmc^dt7urge me, on grounds which are very fairly and forcibly stated, "to decline the advice which has been unanimously t.ndered to me by my responsible " Ministers and to refuse to prorogue Parliament ; i'. uther words y .u require me to dismiss " them from my counsels ; f..r, gentlemen, you must be aware that this would be the neces- " Bary result of my assenting to your r(!Commend.ition. '• Up..n what grounds would I be justified in taking so grave a step? What guarantee can •' vou atlbrd me that the Parliament of ihe Dominion would endorse such an act ot personal •• interference on my part? You, yourselves, gentlemen, do not form the majority of the " Souse of Common., an.l I have no means, therefore, of ascertaining that the mnjonty ot "■ that body subseribe to the opinion you have announced. Agam, to what should I have to " aoiieal in iustiticatinn of my conduct ? " Iti« true grave charges have been preferred against these gentlem n ; charges whi.-h I '• admit re..uire the most searching invesligati.m ; but, as you, yourselves, reiiuirk ,n your "memorandum, the truth of these accusations still remains untested Is the Governor " Gen-al upon the strength of such evidence as this, to drive from h.s presence frontlemen " who for 'years have tilled the highest offices of State, and in whom during the recent s. .sion, "Parliament has repeatedly declared its continued confidence? " It is true certain documents h.ave lately appeared in connection with these uia.lers of " grave significance, in regard to which the fullest explanation must be given, but no proof '• L vet been adduced which necessarily connects them with the culpable transactions of •' which it is asserted they formed a part, however questionable they may appear, as placed " in iuxtanosi. -i with the correspondence to which thoy have been appended by the person " whohasL^ec ^ Mm.olf of them. Under those circumstances, what right has the Governor "General on. ii.,>. o... , rsf-'-r^sibility, to proclaim to Canada,-nay, not only to Canada, « h^it to Ameri •. \^, • ur r ■ (vi such a procee- ling on his part must necessarily do,-that he « beieveVWs ni;,;,s ^rlicy of the c '- ,es alleged against them V Were it possible at the -' nresent time v- i/'ikc ' '.all of the K. use, and place myself in direct communication with « the parliament of the Dominion my present embarrassment would disappear, but this is a ' *' physical impossibility, (p. 32.) OfficutI n,»rrespondime§ "aentlemen,thei,itnatioowehavnl,„„« •• ==s==-=___ J 'i'ke these quoUtions from tv. "uetice. porial Cuvernment on August ir2 ,gVr'"r"r''"'" ^'"''^'^ ^»"' ^"'lerin aeut to ,h r h^vu,, «oKI a public contract in order to nr "' ^°"""°"''' '" P-'Iiament ■ ' ' ! In this caae, no direct charge has been m„ . • *" Pera"'!. *'*' '"^« ''een made against your advisers by a granted »i„l pa|j ,„ ij ,„'..„,?,'"' ^f e«l«turo of ihe p,.„vi„„ „, „„ . .»ce«.,j„^. "»» m-lo »l cory .„l,.i " Mon.,e., .. Your obedient servant, (Signed) HONORS MERCIER, Prime Minister. 80S Offidnl Currrspondence GOVERNMEKT HOUSE, QUEBic.Sept. 16, 18e des Chale.rs Railtav Company be pa d out of the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land converted mto money. fttTrnpossSthat you can have thought, I hope, thereby to relieve the m.nistenal .e- n JSShv o the Government. Everv act of the Crown done on the advice of m rnmisters Tcoterby tS^Z^^^^^^^ thi; is a principle of constitutional law of which no one r.nn be ienorant under the system of responsible Government. . » =. vinf Yon allege that the tenm of the Order in Council No. 237 differ trom tne Act 54 \ ict «h an88 sec ? par. j. To justify a payment not authorize.l by law it cannot be main- chap, ^^'l^'-^' P"-/-„^,„ has the power to amend an Act by an Order in Council. ^""KtheGternmntrelnally 'submitted, for the approval of the representative .V, r. rr,,hU Order in Council with the ministerial advice that it be signed and the t:2Z:C^^f^^^^^^^^ to law. might not one believe that the Govern- uZl^ premedUated intention, drew up its report so a. to pay a creditor to whom the ^""ir—c"eUiat Order in Council No 237 was in accordance -th the act 54 ^Mct h«n «H 3 had in view only the payment of the privileged claims ot the Baie des Cha- ; ars" Si ly w- g veu to me by'the Honourable Mr. Garne«.i, and this is a^own by the eurs Ka"wy » nn.mised me he would send, and which he did send, to Mr. J. Uir)- ,„.truct.ons the tt.. prom^ e^^^^^^^ '^^^-e inst.uctions. quoted in my hi.t Llr"LX';h:wte?epre^en.ations m.de to me by Mr. Ganieau, when he advised me '''^^tT;l^S:::::^^^^^n.y^s^^^^^^r. Gameau admits having had ihe TfTn v^^th me which I related with reference to the .tron^- pressure on hun and T'rS^rrctttttwa sought to make him do things which he objected to. But 1 nofce tit^^ rp "e n yo r n^eLrandum that the Honourable Mr. Garneau endeavours to give ^ Srent meaning to the conversation from what it really had, by giving it to be SerstoodU at hM Garneau, was th'en alluding to the fact that, being at the same tniie S^Ssstit of Public Works and Railways, acting Treasurer, and also acting Premier he Commissioner 01 t^u fatigued him all the more that he was ill and .Iwliked to Official Correspondence At the time of the interview whpn n,„ Garneau had the opinion of hT Ittornpv r^^'T.^u "^ove mentioned took place, Mr. o.t. There wa« no question whatlTr o" th^"' ',? • ' r"'""'^ '' ""'^ "«^ ^^^" ^'^''-^^ ^""en of the state of his health ; no^e oAhio t n "'''^'^f' " '''• '''^'"^'^"'^ occupations nor of to me, viz : •■ that is w s Tl n. h^''"^ "iT ^'''''^"' '''' ^'^"'« '''^ """'" "«« •' threats were made of cabling 'to M m",.' "/ ^r r"'' *''^' '" "''^"''''' *«' ^^^ that unlawful and undue pressure since I arhZiv,- T' ^'^^"«^» t^en certainly alluded to the law. Neither his words n'; mbe wo" L'lT '"'^^ '^"'' *° ^^^^ '" -"'-•"'''>• -ith been no question of unlawful and undue pressure ''"^' ^'^^"''^'"''^ "leaning, if there had ^^^^:!^:!:::.^:::::jx;:^,^^^^^ -n> to exist before justice is done to chumants vo V '■°""'' ^ ^'"■'•''''' ^^<^^« t^i»^"t« i« ' In that n««««„. ..• J. ;!^;; ; •' °" '^^ '"'^ t" '"'.'•^e «"ch barrier known to you. liivied Til f>,„» „„ ,. ""'..' "u !isK me to m in ttiat passage ol my lettpr T aii„,i„i * . - Armstrongand J.J.Macdonald whicl Iwil ' Z^^ ^ieclarations made by Messrs, C. X- strong has sworn that, in order o obtain Tl ^ ^°"'" '"'^""'""^tio"- Mr. C. N. Arm- Government, he was obliged t^p V Vl^S.K'":"'/-'' ''' """ "'" *'"^'"^^ '-'" «^« previously paid another sum of $15 Sin or^r^ '* ^^ Mr. Pacaud, to wh.m he had which were due to him. Mr. J J Cd'nl ' ^ T *''" «o^-^"^"-nt son.e subsidi, s rence to the cost of completing he BntTrrV''"r.^'^ calculation with refer- with the Government, he Scsid:!; ;?":"' "'"'^ ' "'"'^ ""' """ '" -^"^'"*'- would have to p«y Mr. Pacaud Zng ,e c Z e 7th ""' t" '"', " *'"''^"'' "''^'' ^« consjdered the latter a necessary agenVwiththToo^rnmU^^^ "'"' ""■"*^"^""' ^'^'^^ ^« >ette;"rr-ir:::;rfr;!;r^^^^^^^^^^ -- - -. memorandum of September ].5th instlnt. Propositions set forth in your I bavc the honour to be. Sir. Your obedient servant, (Signed), A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant Governor. CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE Province de Quebec. QtJEBEC, September 17th 1891. Honourable Auquste Real Angers, JAeatenant Go vernor of the Province of Quebec. May it please Your Honour, rumom, cnrren. in Cber„fth Im ™ ,1 ,'°"- ?' '!" «»"'"'""« '■> certain Mi„i.U.r ,H„n.Mr. Abbot, U^.tZZl: iTZ':^^"' ""' """"'''' """' .«.ea between .be P„.incia, 0.l^^.rL\':V^:^: ZIZ^^^X:! 870 Official Correspondence the Lieutenant-Governor of Quebec and the Governor-General of the Dominion on the subject, and that Hon. Mr. Abbott replied that there had been no correspondence between the two Governments on the subject, directly or indirectly, but that His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor had transmitted to His Excellency a copy of a letter he had addressed to Mr. Meicier, Prime Ministtr at Quebec, and thiit His Excellency had transmitted that copy to Ottawa. 1 also see in the same official reports tliat on Monday, September 14th, inst, Hon. Mr. Miller moved, seconded by Hon Mr. Dickey, that an humble address be presented to His Excellency the Governor-General, praying him to cause to be laid before the House all the correspondence exchanged between him and the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Quebec respecting the Baie .des Chaleurs Railway, as well as all other papers or corres- pondence on the subject in the possession of the Government. I learned, by despatch last night, that Hon. Mr. Abbott had, during the course of yesterday afternoon, laid before the Senate a letter from Your Honour to His Excellency the the Governor-General transmitting him a copy of the letter which you sent me on September 7th, and the Chronicle and the Canadien of this morning publish the greater portion of this document. As it would be of the greatest injustice to my colleagues und myself to leave Your Honour's letter alone before the public wjthout my reply to it, I ask your permission to publish the latter,a8 well as all correspondence which has followed between Your Honour and myself on the subject. I will not give all the rea-sons which justify my present step. I am convinced that I have but to make the request and that it will be granted. Please accept the assurance of the high consideration with which I have the honour to be Your obedient servant, (Signed) HONORS MERCIER, Prime Mmister. GOVERNMENT HOUSE, Quebec, 17th September, 1891. Honourable Honor6 Merciek, Prime Minister of Quebec. Sir, I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of yesterday, 16th September instant, which was handed to me at 6 p.m., at Spencer Wood, by your private secretary, with reference to the composition of the Royal Commission which forms the subject matter of our correspondence. I expressed to you my desire that such Commission be composed of three judges ; in reply you tell me that you are of opinion that it be composed of one judge only, and you suggest as Commissioner Sir Francis Johnson, Chief Justice of the Superior Court. You allege that the Royal Commission, which enquired into the circumstances con- nected with the sale of the North Shore Railway, consisted of only one judge. I would observe at once that this investigation was a very lengthy one and lasted over two years. Official Correspondi rnce 871 In your letter of I'^tVi . u . ^'^^' ''^ '"^ Francis Johnson. desirous^fn^ettrnlrtS^^^^^^^ connected with this B.,iede8Chaleiusra^fwrtrT^^f'"'^'"''y mude into everything to the appointment of a Royal Co"" iTsioT' T, ^ ?"/ '''^* '"" ""^ P'-^^^^^^ '^ --«"' circumstances which preceded accomnri"p i ' "" '"^"'^^ '"to t^e facts and under the Act 54 Vict., chap 88 insofar^l ; ^7" '"" *° '^"^ ^«"°^'^d *he transactions find that going beyond the Irms of ^J" f ' / f *" ''' ^"^^^ '^« ^^^'-'" railway. I I defined in my letter of the iZ^Z n w S^xT/'d?; ^"^'^' ^^^.m^^sio., which of every subsidy granted to that railway companv s Le *^^>"1"'^y to the employment " every subsidy " would include the »nhsiS granted bvhTT T '"^*'°'" '^'^ "«'^- Comm«sion of that nature, emanating fro i^ oi r PrlSct ^"f "^l"^"* "^ Canada, and a null, as ourjurisdiction is limited by law to Prrm-nn ^"tlionty, would be radically as to the extent of the powers of the ftTyal CoZ^- f "'^^^^t '''"'* ^°"'- "^^ P^opomtion defeat the ends of justice. Under the ctcumstan^^^^^^^^ T^'' '^' '^"^^ ""» »"d accept the advice which you tender me to^onT^^^^ '"^"•""^ >'«" ^^^^t ^ refuse to only, and to extend its powers Cnd the tZ f *' '^°^"' Commission of one judge instant and of your first acceptance ''^^^^''^'^^ proposition of the 7th September I have the honour to be. Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. R. ANGERS, ideutenant Governor. CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE, Pkovince de Qukbec. Honourable Adquste Real Angers, Qubbeo, Sept. 17, 1891. LieutenarU-Governor oj the Province oj Quebec. Quebec. May it Please Your Honour : 872 Official Correspondence and to txtend the powers of the commission to nil subsidies granted to the Baic dea Chaleurs Railwny Ccimpany since it came in existence. You pereift in your suggestion to appoint three judges instead of one alone, and you aay that I go beyond the terms of my first acceptance by suggesting that the inquiry be extended to the exployment of every siibfidy granted to that company since it came in existence. You add " The words " every subsidy " would include the subsidies granted by the " Parliament of Canada, and a commissii.n of that nature, emanating frum our provincial " provincial authority, would be radically null" This is not the time to discuss this question of law, but it would be easy to remove all doubt as to their nu-aning by adding te the words " every subsidy" the word " provincial." Nevertheless, I will not specially insist on this extension of fjower, but I hope that Your Honour will accede to my desire in that respect. Allow me to add that, in making this pinposiiion, I remain within the very terms of my letter of the 15th instant, since I invited you to discusa with me " the advisability of " extending the inquiry to the emj.loy ment of any subsidy granted to that railway company " since it came into existence." I read the following in your letter : •' If vou had had valid reasons of recusatien against Honourable Mr. Justice Davidson, I would have been satisfieu to see him replaced by Sir Francis .Johnson." I cannot say whether I have reasons of recusation valid in law against Judge Davidson, for whom 1 have the highest respect. But, under circumstances like the present, a regular recusation is not necessary ; certain rules of prudence and propriety should suffice. Mr. Davidson has not long been a judge; when he was appointed he was actively engaged in politics ; had, on several occa-sions, presented himself as a candidate against my political friends, and occupied the honourable position— but one, at the same time, very signitJcant with regard to his political leanings— of presiduit of the Junior Consertive Asso- ciation at Montreal, an important association displaying great energy in all struggles, and directing all political campaigns in the Pnjvince of Quebec in the interests of a party which was and is hostile to me. Under these circumstances, Mr. Davidson should feel ill at ease at being called upon to judge men against whom he contended quite recently with the talent and energy which distinguish him. These considerations, offered with the greatest good faith possible, will perhaps induce Your Honour to substitute Sir Francis Johnson for Mr. Justice Davidson. However. I desire that there be no misunderstanding between your Honour and myself on the subject of this inquiry, and everything that may be Connected therewith. I offered you my advice loyally, both as to the jurisdiction and the composition of the commission, and I regret to learn that this opinion does not pleaae you in its entirety. I am prepared to adopt yours, while declaring, however, that I do not intend to renounce any of my rights, and to give you that concurrence which you require on my part, under the law, to appoint thai commission. • ■ ■> e e The sincere desire which I have to make known all the details of this affair ; the fear of the regrettable and certain agitation which would be produced by the ministerial crisis resulting from my refusal to give yon such concurrence under the conditions laid down by Your Honour, and finally the serious responsibility I would assume by precipitating the Province into the trouble and expense of general elections, when it has barely issued from the provincial elections of 1890 and the federal elections of 1891 are reasons which I deem euffioient to explain this act of unusual deference towards the representative of the Crown. In conclusion, I declare that I am prepared to make the report required by law in the .Honourable ] May it Please Yoi Official Correspondi ence mt had the honour of pr^p^o^ngTo you"'' "''^ '"' ''■*'^""' '^' modifications which I have just had the honour of proposing to y„u Your obedient nervant, (Signed), HONORS MERCIER. Prime Minister. GOVERNMENT HOUSE, -Pnwe Minister, Sir, Quebec. I have just received at 11 W me that the letter which I addre se iTo His" Exf. '' *'^'f ''^- '^^'^'"''^' 1^. 189], telling him a copy of that which I wrot you on the 7 h m"T "l' «°^^™«r-G.neral, for;arding table of the Senate, and you ask mVcoase ' to nlSfh?" T""'''' '"^^ ^^^ ^^'^ on thf addres«ed^meonthe 15th instant fn repy as wetas IZ *'' '^"'"^ *^"* ^'^^''^ ^^^ followed between you and me on the ^ubiect . *^' correspondence which ha« justice .ni offering you my services for' tit 'f'' ^'^^^ ^ '^"^ ^ut doing an act S spondence between us tthm the limit of the constitution, thse docum onr^' ^T'""'' ^'''' ^*^'''^- ^^^^^"^"8 - hament of Canada. I cannot, without volatiS^nrd T"" ^! ^omnmnicated to the Par- method of proceeding. violating the duties ol my office, adopt any other I therefore beg vou to sphH m^ „* receiptLwill fori thr^^th" 1 1^-; rStt tl ^°"^ '°^"'"^°^^' ^^ ^ ^^e- desire. .1. have the honor to be, sir, '^"^ "'^^ ™«y ^^^^e the publicity yqu Your obedient servant, (Signed) A..R. ANGERS, . I'^entenant-Governor. CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE, r>E LA Province dk Quebec. Honorable Auguste R^al Angers, Quebec, Sept. 17, 1891. Lieutenant-Qovermr oj the Province of Quebec, May it Please Your Honor : "^"'^*''" a, seems to me, exempt me from discussing fj- 13- 874 Official Ci rrespimdence certain points raised by Your Honour. Nevertheless, it is perhaps necessary that I should offer certain remarks in order that my silence may not be wrongly mterpreted. I bee Your Honour to believe that I never thought of relieving ti.e responsibility of toe ministers consequent upon your signature having been affixed to the Order m Council No 237. In the eyes of the constitution and towards the public, we alone are responsible, but between you and your ministers the responsibility is morally shared, in the sense that you cannot reproach us with an act in which you concurred, without claiming that you were misled. I have never maintained, and I hope that I will never lorget myself so tar as to maintain, that a government has power to amend an act by Order in Council, it such act does not give such power. But I did say and I maintain that the Act 54 Vic, chapter 88, section 1, paragraph j, is not limitative, and that, while exacting the payment of the privi- leged debts to the satisfaction of the Lientenant-Governor in council, that Act did not torbid the latter to exact the payment^ of all the debtn of the company, all the more so that the transaction in question Wivs made, not with persons outside of the company, but with the company itself, which wn« obliged, by law, to pay all its debts. It is unnecessary to say anything further ou this subject, the argument which I submitted to Your Honour seems to me to be conclusive. Moreover, how can morality or public interest suffer from the act ut a j,'overnment which says to a railway company so bound to g|ve security : " You will "ot have the favours which the Legislature authorizes me to grant you. unless you fulfill the fir.t obligation of an honest man, that of payinghis debts." As to the interviews between Your Honor and Mr. Garneau, I prefer to speak no more of them, in view of the delicate position in which I am placed in that respect I will content myself with saying that Your Honour knows my colleague, Mr. Garneau, and his proverbial courtesy too well, not to understand how he suffers from this regrettable misunderstanding between two gentlemen who are equally honourable. , , , Notwithstanding the facts, upon which Your Honor bases your assertions, that there seems to exist a barriei- where tribute is levied before justice is done to climants, are very serious and very regrettable. I nevertheles. f.>el some satisfaction in seeing that Your Honour knows of no others than those connected with the affairs of this railway c .inpany, facts which are very blameworthy it is true, but as to the existence of which it is still permitted to doubt until an impartial and regular inquiry is made at which both sides can be heard. Pray accept the assurance of the high consideration with which. I have the honor to be, Your obedient servant, (Signed) HONOHABLE HoNO HONORfe MERCIER, Prime Minister. Official Correspondence CABINET DU PREMIER MINISTRE PROVINCE DE QUEBEC. Honourable A. R. Angers, ^'^'"''' ^"'*- ^®' ^^^^• Lieutenant-Governor, Quebec. May it Please Your Honour, Your secretary. Mr- ToaV.^ v, j ■ in which you sayThat you co ';idefthatToa ^ ''''^ ""■ "•' ^"*^'^''^' ^^^ "'^'- of yesterday ^.the channel for forwarding the cop e' orth? '"^ '" "'' °'J"«''^^ ^^ offering youS His Excellency the Gover,,or-GeneTl • hV'^Ju-T''^""'""'^ ^^^^"^"^^^ ^«'^een ufto cons^tution, these documents may be communil, h '. T''"'"«^ ^■''^^" ^^^ "">'»« of the Your Honour concluded this fetter rsa/'-ni" "'' Parliament of Canada." of your documents, and upon thei receipt I w^f f ' 'herefbrebeg you to send me duplicates Uh' kT ''' '""""^' ^''^'^ yo» dee- .r!l' '™"^' ''^'^ "^"^«"^ 'J^'^y. in order that aend youVt^^ZZeVSd^tiLt't '^^^^^^ 'f "*'^ ^'^*^«''''^^°^' -^ ^ ^^-efore of you to add a copy of your am^'eTtZfusttln^f '"'. correspondence. I would beg niay be produced, at the same time before he Hou f Tn//^'"^' '" '"^'^ '''^' ^^e wholf Pray accept the assurann«nf fv, ^■i. ■ Houses at Ottawa. assurance Of the high consideration with which I have the honour to be Your Honor's most humble and obedient servent (Signed) HONORS MERCIER, Prime Minister^ Government House. Honokable Honors Mercier, Prime Minister, SIB. ^"^^«°- Quebec September, 18th 1891. to h.. which I Offered, you ...te L^yThT™ .^e Lil?.'',"''^^'' "" """ '» "P"™"™ «oi.d be to in,i„„a,e in ollioi.1 doTmenrof fh? i,"l ?° " "°' '"' J""««»1>1»- Thi, D.v.d.o„, i„ «.„„i„, .1, ,,„,„,, hr„r2°„y;:,ariZ°""" "••' "-• '""- 876 0(/icial Correspondence Therefore, please cause to be prepared, >vithout delay, f-r exa.ninaUon a draft report of the Executive with reference to the Royal Commission to be appointed and composed, by o^LrofsenlorU o Hon. Mr. L..ui. A, Jett6, Judge of the Superior Court, Hon. Lou.s Franc^ JeorR Baby Judge of the Court of Queen'. Bench , and Hon. Chnrk-s Peen, Da^■.d80^, Si the Superior' Court, al, three of the city of Montreal, ^f-cstigate and report u^^^^ the facts and circumstances which have preceded, accompanied, g>ven r.e o ^"d foUowej the transactions made under the Act 54 Vict., chap. 88, m so far as it aftects the Baie Chaleurs Company, and also a draft of the Royal Commission. I have the honour to be. Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant Oovernor^ GOVERNMENT HOUSE, t Quebec, September 18, 1891. Honorable Honor6 Meecier, j Prime Minister, Quebec. Sir, I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter in answer to mine in which I took up certain points of law and of fact contained in your memorandum of the loth instant. I have the honour to be, nir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant Governor. Honorable H GOVERNMENT HOUSE. Quebec, September, 18. 1891. Honorable Honor6 Mercier, Prime Minister, Quebec. Sir, I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your l«"«-;^«°"*«;"^^^*^;^°3^^;^ which you wish me to forward to His Excellency the Governor General. I will add to these documents a copy of the letters which I send you to-day. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. R. ANGERS. LieiUenant-Governor. Qffkial Correspondence CABINET DU PBEMIER MINI8TRE PROVINCE DE QUEBEC. May it p,ea«o Your Honour. Q-ec, Sept. 19, 189,. therlpoTL^rnd^rZ::;^^^^^^^^^^^ .^— ^-ce wiU. ,ourdo.re agreed between us. in the BaTe de ChllZ I'tr"'"'*':;" "' "" «°>'^' Commis«ion. i' I hope that you will be «atisredwthr>Xnco7h "'''.'"'' "*'''^ Con,mi««io" ments before my departure for Montre^f 1 ll. r T ""''' '" P'^^"*""*^ 'he«e docu- int,.ntion being to assist as much as possibirin r„ ""■" "■"'"'" '"^ ^^""'^'^y "ext, my the grand exposition now being held i "that Jtv "^ '"^"""^ "" ^•"■«'- °f Agriculture, at Accept the a.urance of the high consideratL. with which I have honor to be. Your very devoted, (Signed) HONORS MERCIEK, The Hon. Auguste R^al Angers, ■^"'"* ^^iniater. Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Quebec. GOVERNMENT HOUSE. QufiBEc, 2l8t Sept. 1891. Honorable Honors Mercier, Prime Minister, Montreal. Sir, Saturd^aitr^^^^^^^^ of Sept. 19. which wa. received the Roya, Con,mi.sion in the L'ie ^JS.^:^ ^X" '°""^''' ^"' ^^^ '^-"^^ and - ™t;t-:^i-r ?r^;:^~ cert^n modi^cations report p.inted. I have also'fixed S p L of Z frt'""^'' '''' '^^''^^"°« ^"d the^r of justioe require it ; and I have in cLsenuence modTfi! f'\'V'' ^'^^^'here, if the ends Sunday morning, my s.cr.tjy iTTel^tw A^ ^^^^^ Mr. Grenier, Clerk oflhe Execuliv; Com'cil ' ^ "^ "^''^ '^"°"'"^"*« '" '^^ hands of I beg of you to cause to be prepared thp Rnv„i n^ ■ ■ ■ practicable speed, and to cause an oxl^ofThe OffiSf ^^.7"!'' -'"'^ '" '"P"^'"^ ^'"^ a^' Will you also have copies made of all correSeL ef .' '^'f ^"' ''' Publication, the e.W or .y prerogative, r may tran:m?:rrr^S^^^^^ 878 Official Correspondence this means take communication and be officially informed thereof. I thought this mode preferable to that of repeating, in your report, in that of the Executive Council, and in the Commission, the matters which the Commissioners arc charged to investigate. It is necessary that an Order in Council should be adopted to place, at the disposal of the Commissioners, a certain sum of money towards defraying the expenses of the Com. m sion. I have the honour to be, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant-Oovernor, Copy of the report of a Committee of the Honourable the I'Jxecutive Council, dated tn3 19th September, 1891, approved of by the Lieutenant-Governor on the 19th September, 1891. No. 410. The Honourable Prime Minister in a report dated the 19th September instant, (1891), sets forth • that it is advisable in the public interest that a Royal Commission do issue under the authority of articles 596 and following of the Revised Statutes of the Province of Quebec, respecting inquiries concerning public matters, addressed to the Honou. Baby, Ji Davidson, Judge make an inquiry panied, caused a far as it relates t Honourable Lou And for that He vised Statutes powers granted i them any witncs and to produce si tion of the matte said comniissione and to cause the And WE do ( or elsewhere in Of ail which < hereby required t In Testimony Great Seal of Onr Witness, Our ' nant-Governor of ( At Our Goveri Twenty-First day . ninety-one, and in OffLml Correspondence Canada, ) Province of Quebec, l .[L.8. Victoria, by the Grace „f God of tho „♦.,. ir- . Deren..er of the Faith, Ac, 1'''.^ '' ^"«'"'" °^«-^ «-^-n and Ireland, Queen, To all to whom these presents shall come or whom th. whom the same may concern-GHEETiNo ■ A PROCLAMATION. ':4%^Zr'1 ""Hrnl^^^^^ «""r"^ ^''^^ ^«>'>-«'-. V " report of th« order of Our Lieutenant Gov:nK> T .uSt i" I""] ""rT °^ ^^^^ -^ ^ .n interest ol the public, that a Royal ComZ"?. '''''"'■''^' ^^"^^ '^ *« advisable in th« facts and circumstances which preceded Tc? -T"^ *^ '"•^"^''^ '"^o and repor on the niade under the Act 54 Vict., J^^^ ^^^^'^7^ "' ''''''^'' '^'^ ^---"i Ranway Company; ^ ' '" «" '«r a. ,t relates to the Baie des Chaleuw Provmce on ilu^ subject of inquiries ,.,n,cernZr ^ ^^•''"^^' ®^"'"'e« of Our said he Honourable Louis A. Jet^ Judge or Sn'-' ":'^«-''-^'E- powe,. grant,,, i„ ^j ,,,. .^^ „,„ .SXil? ,",'"'''' ""I ™"""i»i"ne« .11 Z them «ay »„„„,„, „„j „, ,j ,S° ,„'"''«'''"'>■ '.>ei»«M of ..immoning before .nd .0 pro' « '" "n.i"" ..onofthe „„„e„ into which th,y ,.,^1^1.7^' "''"''''' '"^' '">' '"^''''i- »Kl con,„,,„,o„e„ .„ employ „ „,eX, „ , * Xr LHr'" V" *'' "- "'"'■""•» 'b' «*G„v„„ororO„rtL"lTrr:Jr.C^ ^ »me.,.„„e, .„d i„ ,he fi,„..s,,h' ,,„ «/^;'; °'^.^°;- l»'d, one tho.„.„d eight hunted' J, By command, CHA8. LANGELIER, Secretary 880 Official Correapondence CABINET DU PHEMIER MINISTRE, Pkovinck UE QufcBEC. QuKBEC, 23rd September, 1891. May it plewe Your Honour, On my arrival hero, this morning, from Montreal, I find your letter of th« 21st instant. •"'il7rarer.Tu\.tawarethe commission, are sent and the Q.e,ec Offlciai Ga^e^ extra h^been published. I am having a copy ma.le, as you requested, of all the cor-eH- -t:r =:.:: r :r ^;':r u :: ^^^^r s;i s.m .. m^ey .the disp.. of thecommLrn e to contribute to anU • (Signed) GUSTAVEGRENIER, Clerk 0/ the ExecuHve Council. 5fl EXHIBITS EXHIBIT No. 1. {Tramlation.) Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive^ Council, dated the 21«t April 1891, approv No. 237, ed by the Lieutenant-Governor on the 23rd April, 1891. Concerning the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company. • TheHonourabletheCommisHionerof Public Works, in a report dated 20th April instant (1891), sets forth : - ., . . . That he has received a letter from Mr. Angus M. Thorn, of date the 17th Apnl instant, reading as follows :— Quebec, 17th April, 1891. To Honourable P. Garneau, Commi ioner of Public Works and Premier ad interim,, Sir •*• ♦^ =„«„ro fViP transfer of the charter of the Baie des Chaleurs Eail- We are in a position to secure the transterot^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ way if the following proposition is *°°«P*«^.,7^, ^^^J^^^^^ „„ ^Uh the works, complete „.anagemont of a -- JJ^: tra^ oT.^ fo e ^ 1«9'^' ^-- ''^'^^^'^'^ t%ZtS^^X:^^^^-o%:^^^^^^ as soon as circumstances .iU permit. For the carrying out of the present proposition it is understood that the Government shall pay the company : — ^, u 1 r.f i\.^ snb^idv granted by the Statutes of Quebec, 45 Vic, chap. 23, nnd earned ; , it- t aa i ^ mi, u iA^ n( m) 000 granted by the Statute of last session, 54 Vic, chap. »», sec. i, .Jec^rS'eplytrrrn »aUe ove>- .h, G»„,. C„cape„i. i. fl™.h.d »nd accepted by the Government : . , , • * *• „ ^f tV,o law the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land Exhibits 883 eged claims, in accordance with i\.^ v ~. "^^^^^ mi s.oner appointed by the Governmenr . n ""'" *"^ ''"^ "''^™'*"t. When the p^ certificatos and approbation Thin , "" '''°*'P* * c'^im an 1 Mr Tl .1 r '"" As a guarantee that thov will ^ > deem propertocancolth pre rtisl''''"r™r ^"^'"^ i" IrtJ; tlnl"" '^'^"'^ The board of director nf ti,^ " On the sixty inil^a f>f fi,„ • i Cascapedia. ^)- comp „',::: ^1^^'"^"' ^^'-- M.tapedia a.d the bi • section, and on the Lrtv Z\u . "^ '^''•■''' '^««oon as they can tnk/ '^ ''''^'' Tlie whole respectfully submitted, (Signed) A. M. THOM And upon the said A. M. Thorn ■a.t.a f v. th« Honourable Co,„mi„i„„er °f pll „ w , '" "'" '"'»""'■ " "« Pravi ,ce ,„ ^ '^■ »cep,«, „ r„Uo„., th.. CZif '^"*' "*"•""">* "-' '!.» »id pCS S I. To ,«,,„,■« .he B.i, to Ch.,e„„ B,„.., c„„p.„,. . e"...d„ a. r„ „. Oa,p, Br^r^- ir^^^lf-^^ "'' ^"pS,t'a z V I 884 Exhibits 8 To continue the works (.n the sixty miks comprised between Metapedia an.l the Grand river Cascapedia, as soon as the company shall be able to take possession of this part of he road, that is'to say, as soon as the claims which are not contested B^^l'lJ^ve ^;«- paid; which shall be done at the diligence of the Government between now and the 10th May next, at the latest, but without recourse against the Government in default ot such SnTe to commen;e the explorations upon the forty miles between the Grand r.ver Cascapedia and Pa«pebiac, as soon as the prop.«ition shall be accepted, and push them ua with the utmosi dispatch ; 4 That the first board of directors of the said company shall be composed of the following persons : James Cooper, of Montreal ; J. P. Dawes, of Lachine ; Alexander Ewing ofZS; Angus M. Thorn, of Montreal; James Williamson, of Montreal, and of two persons named by the Government. 5 To deposit as a guarantee in the hands of the Government five hundred thousand dollars r^ debentures or bonds of the company of the present issue or any other «at.8tactoi^' euarlee with the pnvilege of exchanging the said debentures or bonds for ai^ equal amoun of debentures ..r bonds of any other issue, not to exceed however the actual issue Td of the snme value in case it shall be judged expedient to withdraw the present is ue ih iebentures or bonds or other guarantees shall be returned by the Government to the company as suou as the roaa shall have been finished to Paspebiac. ON CONDITION: 1 That the balance, to wit, $260,000 of the subsidies granted to the said railway by 45 Vic chap. 23, and its amendments, and 51-52 Vic, ch. 91, sec. 12, shall be paid to the com- pany in proportion as the same shall have been earned accordmg to law. 2 That the subsidy of $50,000 (fifty thousand dollars), granted by the Statute 54 Vic., chap "88 sec. 1, sub-section 1, shall be paid to the company as soon as the bridge over the Grand river Cascapedia shall have been constructed and accepted by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, upon a report of the Government Engineer. 3 That the Government binds itself to pay the company with the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land grante I by the Statute 54 Vict., chap. 88, section 1, sub-section J. conver ed ?nto money, which subsidy shall be kept by the Government and employed by it to pay he s^tuaTdebt of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ; and the surplus, if any shall be, after the payment of all claims actually existing against the company, kept by the Government which shall render an account thereof to the company in final settlement. That the snid debts and claims, after they shall have been approved of and certified by Mr. A. M. Thorn, representing the company, shall be paid by a person named for that nurnose by the Government; and in default of such approbation and such certificates, they shall be paid upon a judgment or report of arbitrators in favour ot any claimant. In the case of the commissioner Earned by the Government accepting a claim and of the said Mr. Sm refusing his certificate, then and in each case the claimant shall have an absolat St to rarbitration, and the award of the arbitrators shall then declarethat the costs shall KtheXgeoftheparty who shall fail; and in default of the said Thorn to name an arbitrator af lawful! purp The Cor Lieutenant-( Approved th (Sig (L. S.) Copy of a Rep A No. 238, As to the n Railway Comp TheHonoi April instant Province, be i Railway Compi of the 23rd Apr The Comm Lieutenant-Go\ Approved this i (Sig Exhibits 885 arbitrator after fifteea day's nnUp- .„ *„ i ., ^ ' ' Lieutenant-Governor! '''' '"'^""^ "•^P"'^*' '^"'I -^'-'ts it for the approval of the (Signed) DAVID A. ROSS, Approved this 23rd April, 1891. Chairman oj the Committee.. (Signed) A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant-Governor. (L,. a.) Certifiel, GIISTAVE GRENTER, Clerk of the Executive Council. EXHIBIT No. 2. {Translation) The Honourable the Commissioner of Pnhlip w^-i • April instant (1891), recommends that Mr j p rV"^"''°?™"''"'" '^'^'^'^ '^«"ty-fi"t Province, be named a Commissioner to L the cS« f' • flf "*"^'^'^^*^^' °^ *»>« Railway Company, in conformity with the p'ovisls^o^^^^ against the Baie des Chaleurs of the 23rd April, 1891. ^ ^ 1 1 ine provisions of the Order in Council number 237 Lieultn^Ze^or:""" ^" *'^ '°^^^°'"^ ^^^^^ ^^ -^™its it for the approval of the Approved this 23rd April, 1892. (Signed,) A. R. ANGERS, Lieutenant-Qovernor. Certified, (Signed) DAVID ROSS, Chairman of the Committee. GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of the Executive Council. 886 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 3. Baie des Chaleurs Railway Cbmpany, Dr. to C. N. Armstrong. Certificate of^ A. L. Light, 1st July. 1889. Section AE *53.5.48J 00 .^,| Ist " " " G 140,112 42 Is-; Ist Sept, " " H 198,661 33 4?| l8t '• ' '• " J 14(»,024 84 S I 19th Oct.. " '.' K 38,693 87 g3| 7th Jan., " " KLMH 10,000 00 g|-^ ..^— ^— — — B f' 00 $1,235,297 55 |^f Substitution of steel 8Ui)eretructure for bridges in lieu ^^ of wooden Howe truss, $16,786, say 50 per cent 8,393 W .|| Surveys executed in excess of contract— ^g.| Section C 2-70 mile. B«g " H 1-51 „ ssi « J 2-90 -^ s^f — 7-11 I sap Cascapedia front line 14-77 s flE ^ 21^ 2,188 00 I 5il I Steel girders on hand 1-60 ft i. ^.277 | j|5 9 ' " 1-40 " 1.581 9 gao M « 1-30" • 1,207 i„'g I 6,065 00 ^g.1 1 1 combination car ■■•••.• i oo" 90 * E TJr.ilioi. niloo nnH tips on hand It-'^l ^J \ The correctness r, lirnner, pues anu iie» ^ju umiu........ .■• „ „„ 1 ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ 1 Stcne at Metapedia, 155 cub. yards at Ifa "^f' "" f not yet aicer- Labour Black Cape Quarry ^,334 68 ) tamed. tt $1,280,635 52 I Mo™^:., 20th April. 1891.^^.^^^^ ^^^^^^ . Contractors' Chief Engineer. I . By subsidies transferred at my request- I* Dominion Government *'^r^'n,v! y I'-vinciHl " JSO^OO ^^^^^ ^ a g Balance due C. N. Armstrong '^rf'nor. ot I . Less paid in bonds, 21 of £500 stg il:^!!L_ |hJ $304,535 59 l"^ * Less these amounts ^,591 57 t $298,943 fi2 We certify that this amount, $298,943.62, is % to C. N. Armstrong in accordance with the terms of his contract with the company. L. J. RIOPEL, L. A. EOBITAILLE, Managing Director. Secretary-Treasurer. Quebec, April 22nd, 1891. (VoTE.-/n the original the word "due" is era.ed after ".>" and the alteration i, made in a marginal note.) Exhibtis 887 EXHIBIT No. 5. (Translation.) No. 488. *^ "^^^^^^^'''^^a"* Governor on the 5th October, 1S89. Concerning the Baie des Chaleura RaUway Company. ^^^e^^^TSZ'^r^^^^^^^^ <^ ^•«'---. i^ a repor, bearing cojanroSt.':rnrir^^^^^^^^^ the workmen and furnishers on thln^? t ^"''-'^ont^c'O'-s, or between the latter and even taken place aZg the 2£^^^^^ ™'"*^' ^"'^ that a strike haa the non-payment of their waZoririesL^^^^^ °' '^^^ contractors in consequence of claims againft the companrrar iStU-nnf \ TT'' '^"'' "'' °'^^^ outstanding terials furnished, salaries L contractors for the right of way, work done, ma- certain works a.d constructions found defecve I Sfe'n^^ "^^^ -P^-^t to and that the said company or its contractors or shnn/; ' ™ °°' ''"''"" °^ ''' ^'''^' of works condemned by tL said endnerorl^^^.^^^^^^ *" '^^ construction Whereas it is in the i^te"^ of the Lvi.^. ?l'^''^T''^ ""' '^' Government, amount, that the GovernmentrorSe s I "!' To if "" T'^'f ' ^ executed in conformity with the g nerll to ;ement^^^^ '"' T'^^-^*'"" ^^ould be and that, on the other hand, it is desirable that H "^ ^^^ ."-egion traversed by the road, company or of its contractors sL" id t^^^^^^^^ '^ ^^r^""" °*" *^« has received a number of complaints on t s hp^H '^^'/™'/^ ckims.seemg the Government of the different claimants and' t og ve t^.^em^^^^^^^ '' '"^'-n ^""* *^^ ^^™^"'* stances; ^ **" *^^ Protection possible under the circum- ...nding cl.i„. anting ou'rZ c„l^, oH J .'Sr': ' dt ^Hh "™1 "'^ that have been alreadv mad.- or whini, .v, .., t ""'» ™iway , and ( j). AH the complaints named, against the aidT.n ;:ny o 1 s a/entl T to. t' T ^'l ^^----ner hereinafter structions defective, insufficien tor contra^v to th. '"n T? "^ ''f "° "' ^"''^^ °^ «°'^- and that for the pu;poses of tht enZTMr A^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^nerests of the region interested, named Commissioner to conduct and direc"tS in ^^ T ^^"''"''' °^ '^'' "'^y- ^^ him witnesses, and to take Lir ev "^^3 nderoa^k"; '°""' ^'""""^ ^^^^^^ all documents and things which he mav dTem nl *v, 'T"' *''"'" ^'^ P™^»°« within as short a delay aTpIs 1- tKl Tthe s^^^^^^^^^ "" Commissioner to report «es, and all the expenses occasioned by LsS enautvToT°°''^ granted to the said company, and he f^^^oS^l^C^^r i^rM^^" aii.-is>-*^ 888 Exhibits authorized to make such advance as he may deem right to the said Commissioner, for such expenses of enquiry out of the said subsidy. j u j The said Commissioner shall give notice to the interested parties of the day, hour ana places at which he shall proceed to hold such enquiry. Certified, GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of the Executive Council. (Signed) EXHIBIT No. 6. (Translation) ■. Copy of the Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, dated the 23rd November, 1889, and approved by the Lieutenant Governor, on the 25th November, 1889. "■ ■ Concerning the Baie dea Chaleurs Railway Company. The Honourable the Commissioner of Public Works, ad intenm, in a report bearing date the 23rd of November instant, 1889, sets forth :— That by an Order in Council, No. 488, of the 3rd of October last, it was decreed that an enquiry should be held to establish : 1. The amount legitimately due on various oustanding claims arising from the construction of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway ; 2. All complaints made or to be made against the said company or its representatives, by reason of works ot a defective character or contrary to the general interests of the region interested ; and that, for the purposes of the said enquiry, Mr. Charles Langelier. advocate, of the city of Quebec wns by the same Order in Council, named Commissioner to conduct and direct the said enquiry ; That on the 19th November last the said Commissioner, Mr. Charles Langelier, sent in a first report, showing that he has held the enquiry with which he was chargea, that he has heard all the interested parties who came forward, and that he is preparing a more detailed report • but, having reaaon to apprehend a repetition of the strikes and troubles that had already broken out if the workmen iind furnirshers are not paid within the shortest possible delay he has deemed it his duty to make a preliminary report to reccmmend the Government in the interests of public order and to prevent the fresh troubles that threaten to arise, to take immediate steps to secu re the payment of all the claims connected with the construc- tion of the portion of the Brtie de Chaleurs Railway comprised between Matapedia and the River Cascapediac sixty miles between Matapedia and Caplan ; That to the said report is annexed a list of these claims for sections H and G, a^ well as the other sections to the westward ; which claims, with the exception of those for the righ of way have, as attested by the Commissioner, been all admitted by the contractors, so that there can be no objection to their payment and no dispute as to the different amounte-the pretentions of the claimant* corresponding exactly to the entries m the books ot Messrs. MacFarlane & Son, sub-contractoro for the portion of the road situated to the west ot the River Ca8cape< for work, worki tors, amount to That on tl aub-contractors, to the extent of That by a 1889, it i^ eatah the works — unf that th it sectio tion may be paii t As for the S< same report of ] previous inspect] a paasenger and of 57 miles), and ing certain defec That in the i arise, if the outs and whereas the to guarantee the the sum of $22,( Chaleurs Railway and others, who I That the two 128,546, total bait Company, which i That out of tl Company or of i and others, who h made of the costs expenses and all labourers, workme in full, and then tl any balance of the Wherefore the $28,546 be paid to ; payment, in dischf —deduction first n sioner, his travellin the amount due t workmen and labi parties, in full, con Exhibits 889 tors, amount to the sum of «2!,,000 or thereabout,' ""^'"^ *'^^ *='^'"''' "^ *h« sub-contrac" aub-cotllrSl'therrjerahldt ?y'lh?iw f '^^ .^««-'- MacFarkne & Son are to the extent of f 8,546. ^ ^ Government of this Province a balance of subsidy That by a report of Mr Li.'ht the n 1889, it is established that on sexton HZfu'"""* ^"g'^^e'' dated the 26th September, the works-unfinished at the date of h'J^r '" '*^'' """"^ ^^^ ^^^^ *° ^^e 50th mile, all that that section is now in perfect le solr^lltrr''"! ^-^ P'^ted, and tion may be paid. ' '^^' '"^ *6,.500 retained to secure its comple" same report of Mr.'Tight! ttu the'gLteTD.'rrnnl'' '" ^T ""''" '' '' established by the previous inspection, have been executed s!^^,.^h r^ ""•"'' """"'^hed at the time of hw a pH«senger and freight train runs da.ly bellrn^ ' r" '" ^''"'' ^'"'"'''"^ °'-''«^ ^"^^ ^^at of 57 miles), and might even go astrasthreothr^r^'l '''"•'"" ""'* ^'•'^^'°"" ^^ '"^t-^^^e ing certain defects in the track whi. h he notes ^ ^'-^^sfactory speed, notwithstand- That in the interest of public ordnr ;n.t t^ ^ . ., . arise, if the outstanding, claims conneld wT'/^ ^' ^'''^ *™"^^^^ ^'''•^^ threaten to and whereas the Dominion GoLnment . J ^<^ °'^' "'' ""* ^'■"'"P''^ ^^"^«^» to gvtarantee .he completion of theTork™ TT^ '^''°"' *3^'00« of its subsidy* the sum of $22,046, balance of the luivTnn"?^ " '' 'T?'^'^'' '' ''' "^^-^ ^° P-^^ Chaleurs Railway, and to apply it to the navmr r T'"^ *? '^'^ '^'=''°" ">' '^e Bale des and others, who have contrKed Z Z SSlIf ^i;; 7^:^^^^;^ '"^^^^^^'^ l28,.5'rtlVbrnr:ft:%To;" ^B,.. and $22,046, form together one of Company, which should be paidTmmeiil^ly "^ ^'"^ '" '''' ^'"^ ^'' ^•^^'«"™ ^^^'-^^^ and others, who have cLtrlbSo the ex cut on'of th" '°T'^''^ "°^'"^"' ^"^-«'^"' made of the costs of the s.aid inauirv of fh« !n^ ^ .'"'"'''"' '^ '' J"8t-deduction first expenses and all otherlegUi nte e;nen,P '^"°^'^"°«;« ^^e Commissioner, his travelling labourers, workmen, furn fS Jte Xofrfn'^ there with-that the claims of the in full, and then the' sul-contralrS h laimknTs ^ '"f -'^^l' ^'""'^ '^ '''' any balance of the said sum that may reinain' ^''"''"^'' '^^ «° ™"«h »« t^e dollar, out of Wherefore the Honourable Commissioner «^ i^t..- $28,546 be paid to Mr. J. C. UngeZShlZUr ' '•^^"'"'"^"ds ^hat the sum of payment, in discharge of the Bale de« ChlusT^r^ 'r^' *° ^' ^^ ^'"^ ^^PP^^^ to the -deduction first mSe of the expenses ofSla.^f- ^"""v.^""^' ""' °^^*« representatives 8ioner,histravellingexpenses and an otif . '^"''^' *^' «"o^ance to the Commis- the amount due trthrX.e. \t woSrtrth'^^r"""":-^'^ ^^^^^^'^'^' °^ workmen and labourers, to the furnishl nf k m- ^ "'^'^ ""^P''^^ ^°^"1 ^ tb« 890 Exhibits that the balance which sball remain after settlement of the claims above enumerated be distributed between the sub-contractors and other unprivileged claimants pro rata to their respective claims. Certified, (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Ctercfc of the Executive Council. EXHIBIT No. 7. (Translation.) Copy of the report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Coundlda^^^^^^^ 31,t of October, 1887, approved by the Lieutenant Oovorno- on the 3rd November, 1886. Upon the appointment of a deputy Ue^itermni Govevnor to sign ^noney warrants. The Honourable Prime Minister, in a memorandum dated the thirty-first October instant (1887). recommends that Mr. Gustave Grenier. clerk of the ^--"t-^ ^ounci^ be named deputy of the Lieutenant-Governor to «ign money warrants, ^"'^JJ^^''- ^.;- .^"J^ Normandin, clerk of the Department of the Executive Council, be named deputy ot the Lieutenant Governor, to sign money warrants in the absence of Mr. Grenier. Certified, (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of the Executive Council. Duplicate. EXHIBIT No. 9. TREASURY DEPARTMENT, P. Q. Audit Buanch. Recommendation No. 136, ) »,qq qqq on No. 214. ) SERVICE. General Head : Con. Railway Fund. Sub-Head: Railway Subsidies. Recommended that a warrant do issue for the sum of one hundred thousand dollars in favourofrBafedesChaleurs Railway Company, represented by the Union Bank of Canada being the amount advanced by the bank, to J. C. Langelier. Commi^ioner, by order of the ExhibUt 891 Honourable the Co xuaissioner of PuKHo w i . Railway Company, the BanTbeinf n accout';^ °^""f ?f1 ^^« «**- '^^ ^^»'-" Act 54 Vic, chap. 88, sec. 1 p (ilLlroT '^^^ converted land subsidy, granted by 1891. ' ^ 'J^ under Orders m Council Nos 237 and 238 of April 23rd 1891. Citing Act or Order in Council, Of both as may be. ' To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 2. Approved. (Signed) H. T. MACHIN, AasiatarU Provincial Treasurer. (Signed Quebec, 9th July, 1891. A. H. VERRET, Provincial Auditor. Duplicate, TREASURY DEPARTMENT, P. Q. Audit Branch. Recommendation No. 137 l ^ on No. 114. 'j 1534.25 SERVICE. General Head : Public Debt. Sub-Head : Interest on Public Debt.-unfunded. .nler«t .. 5 % per annum f,„„ i., j„ne u, Ju?y o.h 1891 „„ ,1 ™,"* ,"" T°™' °' Citing Act ^ , . , „ or Order in Council, or both aa may be. ' To be taken from 40 Vict., chap. 5. Approved. Quebec, 19th July, 1891. (Signed) H. T. MACHIN, Asmtant Provincial Treasurer. (Signed) A. H. VERRET, Provincial Auditor. 89S Exhibttt Duplicate, TREASURY DEPARTMENT, P. Q. Audit Branch. Recommendation No. 138 1 |-^- qqq °'»^°-''- ^ ' SERVICE. General Head : Con. Railway Fund. Sub-Head : Railway Subsidies. Recommended that a warrant do issue for the sum of seventy-five thousand dollar in favour of the Baie des Chalenrs Railway Co.. represented by La B""^;^ N/^-^^^^'.^ '^^ amount advanced by the bank, to J. C. Langel.er, Commissioner by J" ^'^yphaleun Honourable the Commissioner of Public Works, to pay claims ^g""«^>^;^^aie d^^^^^^ Railway Co., the same being on account of the converted land ^"b;'^/^'^"*^?,,^^^^^^^^^^ Vict. chap. 88, section 1, p, (j) f.under Orders in Council Nos, 237 and 238 of April 23id, 1891. Citing AM or Order in OuuDoil, or both, as may be. Approved (Signed) To be taken from 40 Vic, cap. 2. H. T. MACHIN, Assistant Provincial Treasurer. (Signed) Quebec, 9th July 1891. A. H. VERRET, Provincial Auditor. Duplicate. TREASURY DEPARTMENT, P. Q. Audit Branch. Recommeiidation No. on No. 72. 139 |$40a ,68. SERVICE. General Head : Public Debt. Sub-Head : Interest on Public Debt-unfunded. Recemmended that a warrant do issue for the sum of $400.68 in favour of La Banque Nationale. being amount of interest at 5% per annum from the ^^^ /""^^^ f;^J;\^,if ^ "^ 175,000 advanced to J. C. Langelier, Commissioner, on account of the subsidies oi the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company. Citing Act or Order in Council, or both, as may be. To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 5. Approved. (Signed), H. T. MACHIN, Assistant Provincial Treasurer. (Signed) Quebec, 9th July, 1891. A. H. VERRET, Provincial Auditor. Exhibits 893 EXHIBIT No. 41. Drafts of leiters, etc., corrected, etc. Quebec, 2l8t April, 1891. The Honourable P. Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works and I'remier ad interim. Sir, vided that it ia agreed that iiT.en:lTltT^^^ as circu„.Htances permit, pro- Corapany : «rnmeiu shall pay to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway erned on the completion of eloh to nil! '^;. """'"'""S '» »26O,0(iO.0O, payable „ «,e on ™« aotea^r l.nuU'^^rt.^tnr; miro'frSi:^ '-"™ ""'' ^' 2. The subsidy of $50,000.00, granted bv the Staf„f» ^(^ , . .ection 1. sub-section i. payable aaLn L^t bHdgrfin^^fedtd^rpt^f "^^^•' ^^^ ^ grant";3Ltol-ttrsS4l^^^ «t T^f^ f ^"^'^^ ^^ °^ '-^. into a money subsidy and the proceedsthereoVtedbrtLV '"'''''''" ^' ''"" ^^««"verted, debts of the Company as no^y exiJTZTfT V P'^'^T"'^''^^^^^^ bytheGovernmenLl'lllclainH r^ e'irin/aVl''?/ °"^.^n ''''' '^« P^^^-t Btood that in any event the said Ze do cSems R i w! "p "^'""''T ^'' '^'"^ ""^«'- harmless in respect of all claims and dnhu n l ^ ^ Company shall be held free and charged and acquitted by 1^60^'^ nt wTt>T ' '"5 T "'' ^'^'^^ «'^'^" ^'^ «« dis- possession of the sections lorJr^ZZ^^ll^^S^:!^: ""^"'^^ ^''^ ''- -^ r/tis par/ is struck out. purpose by the Government, or failinTrch arZ^ial IT ^/ ''"''°" "^P"'"*^^ ^"^ ^^at the creditor, con/mdictoiremen<. "^ "P°° a judgment or award in favor of ^- ■'^«'g«aranteethatthecompanywillgocnwiththow«,i, K, -ij .he r.ii„a„ the co.pan, „i„ deU wUU rt?^::n';'Bt;tr.ttltr ^^S^&^MMfmM^m^- 894 Exhibitt extent of five hundred thousand dollars (I.500.00O), which honds and deposit shall be restored and delivered back to the company upon the completion of the hne to Paspebiac j 6. In the event of the company acquiring a new or amended charter from the tederal or Local Government it is distinctly understood and agreed that the Government nhall allow the company to replace or exchange on demand the old bonds for bonds issued under such amendment (provided they are of equal value in every respect) or such other securities as may be acceptable to the Government; , „. a ♦•.v,„ 7. Under the new organization the first board of the company shall be composed of the following directors : James Cooper, of Montreal ; James P. Dawes, of Lachine ; Alexaniicr Ewiin, of Montreal ; James Williamson, of Montreal; , . .. o Angus Mclntyre Thorn, of Montreal, and two other persons to be named b^ the Govern- ""^"s It is likewise agreed that should the fulfilment and extension of the stipulati.-ns and conditions above require the passing of further Orders in Council that the Government will use diligence in granting same ; 9 And the sixty miles of railway between Metapedia and the Big River Cascapediac the company will resume the work as soon as they can take possession of that section, and on the fDrty miles ending at Paspebiac, surveys will be commenced as soon a« the propo- sition is accepted by the Government and the work will be proceeded with, with the utmost diligence. It is understood that all subsidies voted described under provision first of this letter shall amount to at least $260,000 in cash payable proportionally on completion of each ten miles namely from the 60th to the 100th and the $50,(KiO under the second provision will bo payable on completion of the bridge over the Big Caseapedia Eivrr distinct and apart from any deferred payment in connection with land subsidies. I have the honour to be, Your obedient servant, (Signed) A. M. THOM. ( Translation.) The undersigned has the honour to report as follows :- Quebec, 20th April, 1891. That in a letter of the 17th April, instant, annexed to this report, Mr. Angus M. Thorn, of Montrecl, offers : 1. To reorganize the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company ; 2 To complete and put in operation, on or before the Slst <.f December. 1392 the 100 miles of the said road comprised between Metapedia and Paspebiac, thence towards Gasp6 Basin as soon as circumstances will permit; 3 To continue the works on the 60 miles comprised between M6tap6dia Jand Grand River" Cascapedia, as soon as the company can take possession of that part of the said road. The whole res Exhibits to commence the explorations on the fortv ptdm and Pnepebiac as with the greatest vigor ; p,;- «., ....^„=^-;i;- - :;^».jp™^.ou^_o™^ Montr,.»l : J„„K, Willi.,,,.™, ,„ M„i,l™ .' 1 „„:, r-n ^" '"'" ' '''"""■I" TMng, „f fi. To deposit as securitv wifh t)in r^., company ,.r any other satiHac'rVcXTiZt''""'^ or ciehentureH of another i.,uo no to ^ /e^the . .eT':'; ■''"'•"*=''^"«'"« *^'« "-<' ^^"n - expe,l,enttowith,irawthepreH.nti.sue wlL T '"f^^^'-Vr" '" '"^^ '' -l^"" »'« deemed ».e returned by the Government to tTe si.id omL;;""' '''•'""^'"' "-• "'hersecuriti. lu completed ns far as Paspebiue ; '"^""^ ''^ ^°«" "» *he road «hall have been ON CONDI! lOX 2. ri'«t tl'o subsidy by r/>,000, granted bv tho \ .* -. ^r . • «nb.sect.on(i).bepaidtothecommnv8o oL«tV h^ ^'^°""' °^"f- ««' ■^''ction 1 dmnhallhave been lini.shed a.d aclt^bv tte r.' 't^^^^ Grand Hi ver Cascape: ivport of the Government engineer; lieutenant Governor in Council uput 3. That the Government undertn , nnv t -. *\. of land, granted by the Act 54 \iotoria dmn er /s'^T"" "^^^''^^'^y "^ 800,000 acres ;nto „H,n..y, which subsidy shall be k^^ i^ tSovtnm „?/' """T''"' >^^' ----^e" the Ba>e de« Chalenrn Railway .on.pany, and he ror ^^ ^'^ '*'''""' ''"^^^ °^ o the cla.n. now existing against The 'kJi ComplT .hril'b' ':''"\^'r^^'-^h. payment, and shall be accounted for „ , the company upon tChnnStllenT.* '^ ''^ Government. 4. That the said debts and claim.s shall be naid bv i r,» The whole respectfully submitted. i 896 Exhibits Quebec, 17th April, 1891. HONOOKABLE P. GaRNEAU, Commissioner of Public Works and Premier ad interim. Sir, We have secured the transfer of the charter of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company, and if the following proposition is accepted by the Government, we are prepared to go on with the works, complete the road and have it ready for traffic on or before the 31st of December, 1892, from Metapedia to Paspebiac, and thence to Gaap6 Basin as soon as practicable. ' For the carrying out of the present proposition we ask from the Government : 1. The balance of the subsidy payable in virtue -ed .ho ninth or and nndert«kinjj, there wns gran ed f.e^tt 1 n ? . ™''''^''''-^ '^'"' °*''«r companies Company, to aid it in the cost ol building ill Hno '"' ^^ '' *'^ ^''^^^ ^^''^hern Railway " 1. On a distance of 33 miles from he of 4000 per acre, converted into money J^S o r? e'"!"' '" '^'t' "'"■" """-^ • ^^^^ o^ 35 ets. per acre or of 81 400 per 34 miles. 902 Exhibit 3. Of praying for an advance upon the said grant in land, converted into money, of $75.00 per mile, at the terms of section 6 of the Act 38 Victoria, chap. '.', as re-amendsd by section 5 of the Subsidy Act aforesaid, so as to aid the said company to locate the sections not yet built of its Bubbidized line. That in so far as the demands of the said company, as set forth in the above cited resolutions, are well founded, and that it is expedient to grant the same in so far as authorized by the aforesaid Subsidy Act ; Wherefore the Honourable the Comff issioner recommends : 1. That act be granted to the company of its "aid declaration of option in favour of the conversion into money of the proportion of the said land subsidy of 10,000 acres per mile, which had not been, up to this time, converted into money ; and that such option be now arnroved in confftrmity with section 14 of the Act 51-52 Victoria, chap. 91, as re-enacted by 8>. Jtion 7 of the said Subsidy Act. 2. That out of the Consolidated Railway Fnnd, it be declared that the said company or its assigns have a right to receive from the Treasury a sum of thirty-seven thousand eight hundred doUnrs ($37,800), which represents the proportion of the additional grant of 6,000 acres of land per mile, converted into money at 35 cts per acre, at the rate of $2,100 per mile coming to the said company, according to the Subsiidy Act above cited (paragraph g) for a distance of 18 miles now completed, inspected and receive ' by the Government engineer, between St. J^r6nie and New Glasgow and between this latter place anc' a part near St. Jdrdme. 3. A sum of fivchundred and twenty-five dollars ($525.00), as an advance upon the pro- portion of subventions in land now converted into money, at 35 cts. per acre, at the rate of $3,500.00 per mile, which were granted to the said company If the said Subsidy Act and by the Acts 45 Victoria, chap. 23, section 1, paragraph g, 49 Victoria, and 50 Victoria, chap. 77, section 6 ; and 53 Victoria, chap. 101, section 9, for the sectii ■ of 7 miles between St. Andr(5 and Lachute, said advance being made to aid the said compaiij , having comj)lied with the provisions of section 6 of the Act 38 Victoria, chap. 2, as re-enacted bv section 5 of the above cited Subsidy Act by deposing in the Department of Public Works plans and profiles of its projected line between St. Andr6 and Lachute ; the t wo aforesaid mentioned sums making a total of thirty-eight thousand three hundred and twenty-five dollars (^^38,325.00), which is now payable tc the said company, or its legal representatives. Certified. (Signed,) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of the Executive Coundl. Copy of a 2nd July, 1891 The Honoi (1891), sets fori ' That unde: latter submitte again inspected Vally Railway, Hull station, as and value of thi the said two set that a very l&rg been now comp to complete the principally in b and culverts, an work to be com] the Government dies to which it and difficult wc taking into acco the subsidy gran not then comple A. P. Bradley, th the 13th of June Therefore,th> and recommenda company or its U 1. A 8u .1 of per mile, under t railway so inspec 2. An equal s of 10 miles, undei by this latter stat i;ne out of the am Exhibit 903 EXHIBIT No. 57. [Translation). [As a form) 2nd ?uT/ 189l?p;rveX''ZSr ""' *^rr^«"-™^'« '^^ ^--tiv. Council, dated the , itpprovea by the Lieutenant Governor on the 6th of July, 1891 . Concernino the Ottawa and Qatineau Valley Railway Company. TREASURY DEPARTMEI^T, QUKBEC, 6th July, 1891. (189lTL^r;h :- ''' ^^----^ o^' I^^biic Works, in a report dated the 2nd of July latt Js^bS lotirS^rT 'S't '? '''■ ^- '■ ^^"^^' «-— t enginer, this again inspected the first to IctionT "'';"'''■/''?"'' ^^ ^''"'^^ ^' ''''^^^ 'hat be haa Vally RaLay. f^m i^s ju^et on w Ih ° !"f "'>7>'^-" '-^^'th of the Ottawa and Gatineau Hull station, a^ far as beyond ° he il, 't^^ f '" ^f ''''^ ^'"'^^'^^' ^''°"' '^ '""^ ^^m the and value of the dd tio fal wo k InSnf > "^'t' ^ *^^''^"^' °" '''' "1^°^ '^e extent the said two sections "nr 1 nrT !• ''^'"^ ^"^'^ ^'«" ^'°"^' '^"'1 «"PPlied upon that a very la^ pa t of L 1^ r^'l^^'n " '' '''' ''''^ '' '''' ^^^^'^^^^^ 1«^0. '"^ beennowL.pt.Sln°lrtirct;ttnn:rt^ to complete the said two n^ntin,.. e l ""■ ■?"•" '''^'^* "lere still remains work to be done principally irLalstr of 14 "its of ^^^P^'^^f '"'^ '''^''''''' "^i'^h works consist and cu^lveL. and tr rplelr rth°J :l '^ T^^^ work to be completed for the same value of iwom 00 teTIi at present remains the Government would be iustitie.l .f'",'?^ m ' ^^^^^ is of opinion that per mi.^ :;r tS^s^^^tzr :^:p^^^;^rT7 n^^ ^^^ railway so inspected and almost termTnaied ' '' ''' *^' ''°°"^ ^^'="™ °^' ^'^ of lo'mt?r„trZl!t 54 vfct Tan VV'^ "'^ "'"^'^'^^ °" *^« ^^^ --"^ -«''- " ^.ne out of th. amount of the subsidy in money and in land which were granted'toTtby the 904 Exhibit Acts 45 Vict , chap. 23, section 1, paragraph (e), and 51-52 Vict., chap. 91, section 7 ; the two above mentioned sums making a total of $103,220.00, which the said company has a right to receive less the 162.30, which are claimed by the Government engineer to cover his fees and travelling expenses for the last inspection, and out of which latter sum of $86.00 must remain in the Treasury as representing the amount of his fees; so that the sum which is now payable to the company or its representatives is one hundred and three .thousand one hundred and tifty-seven dollars and seventy cents. Certified, (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of Executive Council. EXHIBIT No. 58. STATEMENT of the estimated amounts reqiiired for pa; uent of subsidies to railways during the fiscal year 1891-92, making up the total amount of $756,956.25, mentioned in page 32 of tlie Budget speech delivered 5th December, 1890 :— The Great Eastern Railway $ 28,000 00 Baie des Chaleurs do on a^c. subsidy of 45 V., C. 23. 140,000 00 Lake Temiscamingue do 48.000 00 Orford Mountain do 50,000 00 Montreal and Western do 100,000 00 Pontiac Pacific Junction do 105,000 00 Quebec Central do 60,000 00 Quebec and Lake St John do 70,000 00 Quebec, Montmorency & Charlevoix da 68,000 00 Great Northern do 19,600 00 United Counties do 35,000 00 Ottawa and Gatineau Valley do 42,000 00 $765,600 00 Say subsidies to Unilways $750,000 00 Old construction claims Q. M. 0. & 0. Railway...., 6,9;;6 25 $756,956 25 Exhibit EXHIBIT No. 69. BY HIS HONOUR THE HONOURABLE AUGUSTE REAL ANGERS LIEUTKNANT GoVKUxbR OF THE PbOVINCK OP QuKBKC. No. 136 on No. 214. » 100,000. To THE Honourable the TRPAaiTnrB ^^ iRKABURER OF THE PROVINCE OF QuEBEC. You are hereby autlioiized and renuired ont nf »„ i your bands, for defraying the expenses nth. r • r "'""'^'" "^ "''" '" "'^ "^'"H ^^on^e to to pay or cause to be paH untXrie d ' Ch^ l?' '^';'";™"^' °''^« ^--"-e of Quebec, Bank of Canada or to.thelr assigns the L'' ^''''?^'' '^^'^^^^^^^ by the Union amount advanced by the Bank to J.' C L Z ier rT '"^ '^u°"'""^ ''°"'^'-«' '^""^ the inserted .) To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 2. (OitiQg Act or Or- der in Council, or both, as may be. ^^^^^Z^^^IZS^T^^^-^' ""™' -P»v o,.heir ...... Quebec, this 9th day of July, 1891. (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Deputy Lieutenant Governor. Received this tenth day of July 1891 from t\.^ vr tioned snm ^ ^' •'"^^' '^"^ the Honourable t mentioned sum he Treasurer, the above For the Union Bank of Canada, (Signed) E. WEBB, Cashier. 906 . Exhibit Exhibit No. 60. BY HIS HONOUR THE HONOURABLE AUGUSTE REAL ANGERS. Lieutenant Qovehnoh of the Province of Qukbec. No. 137 on No. 214, $534.25 To THE HONOURABI.E THE TREASURER OF THE PROVINCE 01 (JOEH'C, You are hereby authorized and requireil, oi/ '>»" such moneys as are in or shall come to your hands, for defraying the expenses of the Civil Government of the Province of Quebec, to pay or cause to be paid unto the Union Bank of Canada or to its assigns, the sum of five hundred and thirty-four and twenty-five cents, dollars being the amount of interest at 5 ^ per annum from 1st June to July 10th, 1891, on *100,000 advanced to J.C. Langelier, Commissioner! on account of the subsidies of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company. and chargeable to public debt. Interest on public debt unfunded. To be taken from 40 Vict., chap. 5. (General Head or Sub-Head of Service to be inserted. (Oitin^r Act or Order in Couacil,orboth,a3maybe). And for so doing, this, with acquittance of the said bank or its assigns, shall be to you a sufficient warrant and disciiarge. Quebec, this 9th day of July, 1891. (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Deputy Lieutenant Oovernor. Received the tenth day of July, IS'Jl, from the Honourable the Treasurer, the above mentioned sum. To THE Honour Quebec, this 91 For the Union Bank of Canada, ■ (Signed) E.WEBB, Cashier. Exhibit EXHIBIT No. 61. BY HIS HONOUR THE HOXOURABL No. 138 on Ni'. 72 175,000. Lieutenant Governor E AUGUSTE REAL ANGERS, 0? THE Province of Quebec. To THE HONO.K.a.K THE TkeasURKR OK THE PROVINCE OK QuEBKC. You are hereby nuthorized and roouiifi.i n.,t «(• u your hands, for defraying the expend S S il r " '"°"'^' "^ "^ •" «^ '^^^^ ««•"« to to pay or cause to be paid untrfw h^ r''"'"'"* "'"t^« ^''^"V'nce of Quebec LaBanqueNationaleor j:tir a i ns the's.™ o?"'*^"" ^'"^^ ^°- -P-en!ed by the amount advanced by the B.nk to I P I r ^^^^nty-five thousand dollars, being or Sub-Head of Services to be inserted.) (Oitinff Act or Order in Council, or botli, as may be.) Con. Railway Fund, Railway Subsidies. To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 2. Quebec, this 9th day of July, 1891. (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Deputxj Lieutenant Governo (Signed) P. G. LAFRANCE, Cashier -^ m 908 Exhibit EXHIBIT No. 62. BY HIS HONOUR THE HONOURABLE AUOUSTE R^AL ANGERB. Lieutenant Governor ok thb Province of Qukbec. No. 13i» on No. 72, 1IS400.G8. To iHF, Honourable the Treasurer of the Province of Quebec, You are heirliy authorized and required, out of such moneys as are in or shall come to your hands, I'ur defraying the expenses of the Civil Government of the Provin •" of Quebec, to pay or cause to be paid unto La Banque Niilionale or to their asaijjns, thi urn of ffinr hundred dollars Hnd sixty cents, being amount of interest at 5 % per annum from the Ist Juno to 10th July on 175,000 advanced to J. C. Langelier, Commissioner, on account of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Co., (Qenernl Head or Sub-Head of Service to be inserted. and chargeable to Public Debt. Interest on Public Debt unfunded. (Citing Act or To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 5. Order in Coun- cil, or both, as may be. And for so doing, this, with acquittance of the said Bank or their assigns, ahall be to you a sufficient warrant and discharge. Quebec, this 9th day of July, 189L (Signed) GUSTAVE QRENIER, Deputy Lieutenant Oovernor To the Honour Received the 10th day of July, 1891, from the Honourable the Treasurer, he abovet mentioned sum. (Signed) P. G. LAFRANCE, Cashier. ^o^ Exhibit No. 2747 on No. 6678, « 1,500. EXHIBIT No 63. BY HIS HONOUR THE HONOURABLE AUUU8T REAL ANGERS, LiKUTENANT Governor of the Province ok Quebec. To THE HOXO.H.B.K THE Trk.«.heR OP XHE Prov.CE OK QUEBEC, Quebec, to pay or cause to bo paid untoTh!, ^ ^ Government of the Province of J^C.Lang.„e, Con.n,is«io„eTrep etnted t .'^^ ^^" ^^ «-'-^ Co., represented by Works, or to their assigns, the sum .f one ,h '" ^^^" ' ' ^^^'^^^."'-Commiseioner Public placed at disp, sal of the said J. c. Langdier bv • .tL '•.'' ft't ^'°"''"' ^«'"« «'"«»"» Worlcs. to enable him to pay clHim« 11^ * .u "'^ °^ *^^ Commissioner of Public land s«b.idy, granted by a754 V kcha't se^ T"'k'^"'' '""« "" "^^-"' of convert d April 23rd 189L ^^•' ^''^P" ®^ ^ec. 1, sub-section " J " under O. C. No. 237 of (General Head or Sub-Head of SerWce to be asserted) (Oitinsf Act or Or- der In Council, or both, 03 may be.) and chargeable to Con. Railway r«„d. Railway Subsidies. To be taken from appropriation. 40 Vic, chap. 2. Qnebec, this 1st day of May, 1891. (Signed) GUSTAVE GREXIER, Deputy Lieutenant Governor. ^ceived this second day of Mav i«qi f,^. *v. xr mentioned sum. ^ .^*^' ^^^^ ^'""^ *^>« Honourable the Treasurer, the above (Signed) S. LESAGE, A smlunt-Commissioner. no Exhibii EXHIBIT No. 64. THE HONOURABLE AUGU3TE REAL ANGERS. Lieutenant Qovebnor of the ProviNCE of Quebec. No. 2901 on No. 6880, $25,000. To the Honourable the Treasurer of the Province of Quebec, You are hereby authorized and required, out of such moneys as are in or shall come to your hands, for defraying the expenses of the Civil Government of the Province of Quebec, to pay or cause to be paid unto Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company, per J. C. Langelier, Quebec, Commissioner, or their assigns, the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars, being to pay a certain number of privileged approved claims under O. C. No. 237, of April 23rd 1891. (General Head and chargeable to Con. Railway Fund, Railway Subsidies, or Sub-Head of Service to be inserted.) (Citing Act or To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. 2. Order in Coun- cil, or both, as may be.) > And for so doing, this, with acquittance of the said Railway Company or their assigns, shall be to you a suflScient warrant and discharge. Quebec, this 9th day of May, 1891. , (Signed) GUSTAVE GRENIER, Deputy Lieutenant Oovernor. To The Honour Received this 9th day of May, 1881, from the Honourable the Treasurer, the above men- tioned sum. (Signed) ' J. C. LANGELIER, Com. B. C. Ry. «*^BW«fe«e.^'*^h8#tYH' , No. 32 on No. 36, *15,000 Exhibit EXHIBIT No. 66. BY HIS HONOUR THE HONOURABLE AUGUSTE REAL ANGERS LlEUTKNAM- GOVEHNOB OF THE PROVINCE OF QuEBEC. • 911 To THE HONO.R.B.K THE TaKAS.RKn OF THE PhOVI.CE OK Qu.BKC, You are hereby authorized and reoiiirpH n„f ^f u your hand., for defraying the e^penses^o t fe' Chil GoTe """?%"' ""'' '" '^^ ^^-^^ ^°"^« to to pay or cause to be paid unto the Baie dt ciawTp"^' "i *^' ^^°^""^« °f Q"^bec, Langeher, Special Commiesioner, repre ente , S S 7^ ^°-' ^«P''«««"ted by J. c Works or to their assigns, the sum of f ftenn thousand'S ^T-'"'"''°'""^*«^'°"«^ ^"blic Langeher to pay further Cai.s against -e saSriruTde^/S:^^^^^^^^^^ (General Head or Sub-Head of Service to be instead. (Citing Act or Older ill Coun- cil, or both, as may be.) Con. Railway Fund, Railway Subsidies. To be taken from 40 Vic, chap. ,'5. --^^^'^!;^^:^:::::^^s-i^ '- -•■™ -- <-.. or their Quebec, this 3rd day of July, 1891. (Signed) GUST AVE GRENIER, Deputy LieutenarUt Governor. !l menSrum.'''*'''^^°^''^'^'^«^^'^--*»^e Honourable the Treasurer, the above (Signed) s. LESAGE. 912 Exhibit EXHIBIT No. 66. 1880. L. E. No. 1396. L. R. No. 653. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS, Railway Office. Treaaury Department, May 8, 1891, Quebec. QuEBEC,8th May, 1891, H. T. Machin, Esq., , AasiatarU Treasurer, P. Q. Quebec. Dear Sir, Under the instructions of the Honourable the Commissioner, I beg to request you on behalf of Mr. J. C. Langelier, the Special Commissioner appointed by the Order in Council No. 238, on 23rd ulto, to effect the payment of the ckims authorized to be seitled by the Order in Council No. 237, passed on the same day, on the Bale des Clialeurs Railway, to please issue immediately a cheque to the order of Mr. Langelier for an amount of twenty-five thousand (dollars $2.5,0(X).00), to enable him to pay a certain number of privileged approved claims an specified in the last mentioned Order in Council. I remain, Dear Sir, Yours truly, (Signed), E. MOREAU, . Director of Kailways. Under the in Langelier, the Sp to effect the payr 237, passed on tlu cheque to the ord amount of fifteec additional privile^ "■W«)»'JPH»»B»?f Exhbits 913 EXHIBIT No. 67. L. E. No, 1465, L. R. No. 653. DEPAETMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS, Railway Office. Treasury DepartmerU, 3rd July, 1891, Quebec. Quebec, 2nd July, 1891, lalf No. der sue md I a,* ays. H. T. Machin, Esqre., Assistani Treasurer, P. Q., Quebec. Dear Sir, Lan^uS^ilrCr S^S:^;^ aud on behalf of M. J. 0. to effect the payment of further claimfatrol.Vto h .V°.^u "°'=" ^°- "^^^ "'^ 23rd«fe,, 237. passed on the same day, on the B ueTsTJe^^,^^' -^'^^ ^^ *^' ^'^'' ^" Council No cheque to the order of Mr. Langelier. reprln^e 1 b^s fj'"^"^' P'°^« '««"« immediately a amount of fifteen thousand dollars ($15 0(^) « enabl h'"^'/ ^"^^-Co^missioner, for an .dditional privileged approved c.ainl. .^^^^^^ t„::Sd Sj inr^S." I remain, Dear Sir, Yours truly, (Signed), E. MOREAU, Director of Railways. 68 914 Exhibits l20,ono. EXHIBIT No. 83. {Translation.) 18,872. Li Banque.Nationale, 15th May, 1891, Quebec. 19,872. Quebec, 12th May, 1891. Two monthB after date, I promise to pay to the order of Philippe Vallifere, Esq., at the Banque Nationale, in Quebec, twenty liiousand dollars, for value received. ■; -A Banque Nationale, Paid 10th July, 1891, 3 Quebec. 3 (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. Endorsed : P. Vaixieke, Ernest Pacaud. EXHIBIT No. 84. ( Translation.) f2C,000. Quebec, 6th May, 1891. 1.1909, 18th July. On the fifteenth of July next, for value received, I promise to pay to the order of Philippe Vallifere, Esq., at the office of the Banque du Peuple, the sum of twenty thousand dollars. (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. (struck out.) Endorsed : P. Valli^ee; Ernest Pacaud. V / STATEMENTS PRODUCED BY Sir. E. PACAUD EXHIBIT No. 86. BANQUE NATIONALE. 915 May 15 14 15 16 16 18 16 20 20 21 28 27 23 23 29 June 1 1 9 10 16 25 25 15 15 16 Net proceeds of note discounted tins (lay , 15 Cheque produced to pay my note due to order of Mr. Mercier endorsed by F. and C. Lange- lier and C A. P. Pelletier...:.. Memo, m connection with account No. 5 Memo, in connection' with account No. 5 Cheque produced. PurchaVe"oi my property L. P. Sirois 19 20 $19,732 60 in 21 22 23 26 27 27 27 29 29 3 9 11 16 26 27 m Clieque produced. Deposit Banque du Peuple.. v^'heque produced. Expenses of Ulnc Barthe, at Ottawa Cheque produced. Private use.. Cheque produced. Paid to Frank Penn^e Cheque produced. Loan to Char leson at Ottawa Cheque produced. U. 'fiVirthe corres{)ondent at Ottawa..., ' Cheque produced. Deposit Banque du Peuple Cheque produced. Deposit coiin- ter-petition,Caron, Chicoutimi Cheque produced. A. GooiTrion advocate, acct. services re en' quete McGreevy Cheque produced. PrivVi'ieuse Cheque produced. Pnyment 2 notes of A. P. Carrier, endors- ed hy me Cheque produced. "Deposit"at Banque du Peuple Cheque produced. Chs. Langelier Cheque produced. Paid to P. B Dumoulin Cheque produced. Deposit Banque du Peuple Cheque produced. Armstrong's draft " Cheque produced. Deposirat Banque du Peuple Cheque produced. Eloi Picard". la lb at Carried forward. iSo.OOO 00 250 00 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 15,250 00 $5,000 00 1,000 00 1,500 00 20 00 50 00 315 00 75 00 50 00 1,000 00 1,000 00 500 00 25 00 400 00 500 00 555 40 260 00 500 00 1,000 00 5(X) 00 100 00 H,a50 40 19,732 60 11 ^ '# 916 Stidtmer^fs of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. B AMQUE NATION A LE— Continued. Date of issue. Date of accept- ance. July 2 6 DETAILS. Brought forward. Jheque produced. J. A. Te»sier,| advocate, 3 fi { -'l' Cheque produced. To close my account, private use balanced.. 22 Dr. iofir.\) 00 5,250 $14,310 40 30 00 02 20 f ,250 fiO «iy,73i; »■'(> Ok. $li),TC2 60 i9,V"o;; 60 Or. IX'EIBIT Ho. 86a. Ernest Pacaud. \n a-:;:vnnt wilh the Banque Nattonale, Quebec. Dr. May 15 16 19 20 21 22 23 26 27 June July 29 2 ■ 3 9 11 16 26 27 3 6 Cheque 1 *5,000 00 " 5,000 00 •< 250 00 " '1 1,000 OU 3 1,501) OU « 4 -ZO 00 " 5 50 00 6 815 00 " 7 75 00 8 '^0 00 9 1,000 00 10 1,000 00 11 500 00 12 25 00 13 400 OO 14 5tiO 00 " 15 553 40 16 200 00 17 500 00 18 1,000 00 " 19 uiK) 00 " 20 100 00 " 21 30 Oil 22 102 20 $19,732 60 May 15 Discount .$19,732 60 $19,732 CO Certified copy of Mr. Ernest Pacaud's account. Quebec, 17th October, 1891. P. G T.A¥ .fCi«l, Cathier. ■ifm^^mmimmm Statements of av.cnunl^ produced by E. Pacaud. EXHIBIT. No. 87. Mr. Ern,.t Pacaud in account roUh ihe Honourable Honor, Mercier. 1891. March ^Oieque ■1 Cheque ..." N08. of Exliibits Cij. 1] 14 14 15 1 1 ^oitrcss Hntol M'rchll P. Campbell ^ipnl 15 Institiit-Cana.lien.... 20 Union Chib " 20|ChampIain lU.nunient' oOboiisoriptidn to Fo '.Tas. C. Loyd MaskindHQ-^ contestation" Maskinonge contestation. Allan Line Customs, Collev, broker.', ' Allan Line..., )Ta,.^. C. Loyd. > .-Vlian Line Customs, CoiJey, broker Allan Line. %i^Sm 00 3,.-()0 00 - f8,50() 00 19 00 4 00 100 on 34 00 500 on 1^ 00 2.'>o no 39 onl 5,001) (in 2')0 nn 28 .S5l 119 31 11 84 75 00 15 HS 227 19 16 96 12 16 10 55 ti' 0,788 29 «1,711 71 918 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. Date of tissue. May 6 6 9 8 9 11 9 8 EXHIBIT No. 88. LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Accept- ance. 11 8 DETAILS. .13 o 3 9 11 11 11 11 11 11 Net proceeds of a note discounted lias day Cheque jirotluccd. To pay note signed by nie tlie ^otli Feta-uary endorsed by Messrs. Mercier, Langelier, I'elletierand otlieis. Cheque prmluced.To Mr. Valli&re for his endor.«ement on note of *2li,(KiO *'>W> The Balance, private use.... oOd Cheque produced. To [>ay note of C.Langelier, endorsed l>y Tarte, $2,0011. The bahmce to pay Carrel's note, $150 Cheque produced. Private use..... Cheque produced. To pay A. Car- rier's note Cheque lost. Paid to Frs. Parent for Chs. Langelier Cheque produced. Deposit to cre- dit of C. Lunge ier, at the Union Shavings Bank, Uppei Town : Mein(j. in connection with ac- count No 5 Receipt pr id I iced. Paid to De mcrs ife Frere •• Chequfife receipt pi odiiced. Paid to Jos. Martin, election services Cheque producid. Private use Chetiue produced. To pay Tarte's note, .nidorsed by F. Lange- lier and myself Cheque produced. To pay costs whicli I owed to the Hon. Geo. Irvine Cheque produced. To \Vm. Lear- nK)nth,purchiiseof a type-writer Memo, m connection with ac- count No. 5 Checjue produced. Amount sent to Mr. Patenaudo, private mat t count X(>5 Cheque produced. P.irt of the purchase iirice dfinv property Cheque produced. Danlase Daiglc Cheque produced. Barthe's e.x- penses, Jttawa Cheque pr duced. Gas Co. Cheqne produced. Private u.se.. Cheque produced. To pay J. B. Parkin's note to the order of Carrie'd forward. 10 16a 16b 17 18 18a 19 20 21 21a 22 23 24 24a 2(i 27 28 29 80 $ 325 00 500 00 19 00 39 00 Db. Cb. 12,173 23 19,720 00 400 00 500 00 150 00 45 54 100 00 25 00 12 50 150 00 22 50 14 25 1,000 00 600 00 7,000 00 15 40 30 00 51 12 100 00 1,419 80 $ 883 00 21,394 54 22,139 80 ■Vk:,-meU^%ikhr 920 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. LA ['. \NQUE DT Ti .'"( r. C^ntinmd. Date of issue May 16 14 16 16 1!> 19 19 8 19 18 26 26 26 29 June 1 I 1 4 4 4 Accept- ance. 18 18 18 19 19 20 21 26 26 26 26 6 6 6 8 8 9 [1 11 9 12 9 6 12 DETAir.S. Brouglit lurwai'l. ^1 O 3 Mr. Hcarn, ami cudorsid by inyseli' Discounted this day ;• Chequf- produced. A Uvernois, pri mte account Chequi' .ro luced. C. A. V. Pelle tier, I K'Ction expenses Oliciiuo MiddeBpateli produced ! )cn( sit made at the request of \Ii. Choquctte Chemo. in cnnuntion v,.l.h :ic- count No. 5 Cheque produced. Private use.... Memo, in connection with ac- coiuit No. 5 Chocpie produced. Private use... (Jheque prod. P. Richard, grocer Cheque produced. Privn'o use... Cheque troduced. A. Ma cotte... Cheqne jiroduced. L. P. Sirois.... Deposit Cheque produced.Colonial House Carried forward. 30a I, 3(»bl 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 3S 38a 38b 39 40 41 41a 42 43 44 45 46 46a 47 47r 52a 53 Dr. $ 883 00 21,394 54 200 00 25 35 1,000 00 130 00 50 00 10 00 425 00 50 00 15 35 iV. 31 ::, .55 550 00 43 92 17 uti f 1,030 66 300 00 100 00 100 00 30 00 58 63 ""sd'oo oO 00 35 45 30 00 30 00 133 00 43 22 Ch. 22,139 80 195 86 1,500 00 1,000 00 500 00 1 Date of Acce iMue. unc€ June 5 1 12 1 10 \o 15 i; 3 1/ 17 li 16 li 17 If 17 18 18 20 18 20 22 o > 22 21 22 22 22 25 25 25 23 25 24 26 .26 2.5 26 22 2'J 25 .1 J>. 27 '27' 24 27 23 27 30 30 80 ;!() 27 3(1 July 2 2 June:30 2 *30 3 25 3 July 2 3 '■\ uv„ 2 3 3 3 '04 25 24,832 06 25,539 90 % Statements of accounts produced by E. Paoiud. 921 LA BANQUE I)U VV.VPhV:~r„ntiniied. 80 85 00 00 00 Date of Juno 5 12 10 15 Id 3 17 16 17 17 18 18 22 22 22 22 25 23 24 2o 22 25 24 23 30 30 27 July 2 June'30 »80 25 July 2 • \ 2 3 25 I 90 Accept- j nnce. Brought forward i $i ,030 G6 13 13 17 17 18 18 18 18 20 20 22 22 22 25 25 25 26 ,26 26 ton < heq. produced. T.HetliiinKt „ ' . '■ Ulri(; Barth.' ; Deposit. Tritiisfo.' from J-. Boi-i •pieNiUiDnale Deposit '"'\ Cheque pr. r I u,;oal"Vraj'or'Vvil«.m ' AbhO J/i(larniiiif... ■■ .). C. More ;. •' Dr. A. Vallco „ ]| Mellcau & Co ' O. M Mitreuil.. ' 6i 51 55 55n .')ob 56 57 58 5;* CO ■; " I'aold. C.zes I ;_ •' MissMuyS.Bvriie I ,, ; .iiiyust.. KJgo ■lo-. X. Porr.mlt... ■ •' Ad('lar.l Tur;;G..n..' I '; '• Wiso &G„ : j ;_ " Friv.Ue use , '■ W. Jac(ine,s Note produced. Rlias Alailloux Cheque " H. Beautey '.'.' - • ', ^ ■' . '!, Ant. Tur;f ;on ^; Deposit. Trau-ifer from La B m- _^,| qi- \atiiinale '27 iCli proiliiced. Private uVe" '^' \ " I'luue.iu & Ki- rou.u (ilii (12 •i3 61 65 6t> 67 68 6!» 70 71 72 27 Cheque pro luced. U.ric B;irthe. :^'? ! ■' " rriViUe use 30 3(t 2 2 3 3 3 use, j " '_' J. D. Chartrand. I '' ■' A. LavigiK^ I !' " Apodinaire Cor- t riveau . Cheque produced. Frank Carrel". A. J. Maxham & Co Cheq. produ(^ed. Thos. Donohu'e Jos. P. Roy Memo, in connection with ac- count Vo. o Chco. produced. Hon rfeo Irvi'iio ''. . ," f- A. Gfof- frions draft.'* Chetiue produced. Ovide Picard t zi 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 S3a 84 85 86 24,8;>2 00' 25,539 90 11 84 39 5G 200 00 50 (1(1 15 0(1 25 01)1 15 00 28 78 9 451 50 00 25 50 10 00 10 001 152 54 3 50 50 00 22 .)() 29 15 50 00 40 (X) 6 90 50 00, 18 48 25 00 50 (JO 50 00 37 95 20 10 1(0 27 50 37 99 25 00 500 (to 500 no 150 00 Carried forward ' $1^042 50 27,166 86 500 00 500 00 500 00 27,039 90 922 Statements of accounts produced by E. Facaud. LA BANQUR DU PKIJPLE -CoiUiiuied. Date of isHue. Accept- ance. DETAILS. No. of voucher. Du. Cr. - July 4 4 6 6 6 6 7 7 7 7 7 7 8 8 8 9 9 10 10 10 10 11 11 13 13 18 13 18 13 17 $1,042 50 27,166 86 37 00 59 00 150 00 23 22 25 00 10 00 20 01) 20 (M) 75 00 27,089 90 July 2 Checiue profhiced. Miss Charbon- 1161111 87 88 h9 90 91 92 93 94 95 95h 96 9t',a 96b 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 113a 114 11.5 116 lir.rt 116b June 20 Cheq.prodi, 'od. F. K. Poulin &Co Eh.i I'icnnl ■" '• I'it'ire Kichard.. H " " Rodolphe Rcy... -•' ' Frank Carrel.... P. A. I'fileti.T... L;ne... " •' Aug. Tessier " " TurcotteA Provost 20 00 19 47 25 00 50 25 50 00 100 00 16 86 25 00 15 00 208 89 15 00 200 00 18 00 1 80 230 00 100 00 10 00 2 7 8 8 *' " Hon. Geo. Irvine.. '* •* Vrivatt* who 9 fi " '■ invicBiu'thp . . .. ' 7 " " Mrs. Leniieu.x " " Casgrain, Anjicrsdf Laveiy Cheque produced. Dr. A. Vallee " " Eloi Picard 10 8 10 10 7 " '• Col. Rhodes 3 10 " " O. Desniiirais " " Joseph Ganthier & Frf^re Cheque protlnced. Fiunk Carrel Dt'iwsit.Tranat'erfroni the I'nion Bank . Cheque produced. Alf. Buchanan " Ant. Tasehercau... " " Abbe-. Ladamme... Denosit 10 10 500 00 9 75 00 25 00 15 00 6 8 11 2,072 73 11 1( 370 00 11 nhpoiif* nrodiiopd. Notp 116c 10,000 00 Disponnt 9,692 60 Carried forward $1,285 61 38,831 35 42,175 23 Date of Ace issue. an( July 11 15 9 « 22 2 11 22 22 22 23 22 24 22 23 £ 23 f) 2 80 30 . 30 3 30 3 80 3 30 3 30 3( 30 3( 81 Aujr. ] 30 r 31 8 30 3 30 3 UJ?. 5 6 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 5 6 Statements oj acrounts produced by E. Pacaud. 928 80 00 00 73 00 60 23 Date of issun. July 11 If) 9 « 22 2 11 22 22 22 23 22 24 22 23 23 80 8l> , 30 80 80 80 80 80 81 81 30 30 Aug. T) 5 6 6 6 6 7 5 6 LA BANQUK 1)U PRUl'LE-Con/Jnufrf. m Accept- ance 18 18 20 21 22 Oi) 23 24 24 2") 25 27 24 DETAILS. Brought forward. Interest on note, eque produced, liiblicjtl lequc Ih nui(,';iine Clieque produced. U. i'loiinie' ' Deposit Deposit.Transler Ironitiie Uniuii Bank Cheque produced. I.. /Viuiri"."."." „ ^ F.-X. Warren C. Langelier.. note Clioque produced, i'ri vate iise!. c ii V; S > Aug 30 80 30 30 80 80 1 Deposit Cheque produced AugUHte Edge Frank Penn^e Private use Ulric Bui the Olover li Fry... Frank Carrel... 117 117a 1171, 117 \U I lit 120 121 122 123 124 12") 120 127 128 *1,285 61 Dk. 128a 1281, ]28e 129 Discount \ (Cheque produoed.Beii'oVii'SaiViMori . , " Leon Lcdieu lor articles in the Kledenr Cheque produced. Belleau A Co.! ,',' '\ Priw-ite use " Parinelce's dratt " 'I Augu.Mte E.lge ,, . " J- A. Bc'langer Memo, in connection with ac- count No. .'5 Cheque produced. Ulric Barthe ;' FloiPicard ....." Frank Carrel.. Dr C. A. Verge 1. Marrier Great N.W.Tel Co Cheque produced. Private use!.'. r,. " , " Discount ' J42a Discount., Cherjueproduced, GeoV Hough.'.'. Cheque Deposit "..".... 130 131 132 138 134 135 135a I 13*i I 137 138 139 140 5 00 141 142 Carried forward 143 143,1 1431, 143c 88,831 &5 11 25 25 00 1 25 00 24 27 l,tU)0 (K) 100 (Ml 23 00 10 m 212 50 30 00 50 00 285 30 10 00 3,000 00 3,000 IMJJ 5 00 i 154 01 21 71 KX) fK) 500 (X) 15 00 118 25 100 00 3(K) (X) 10 oo| 70 00 28 66 11 17 KX) (X) 2,500 00 81.360 61 20 00 534 95 51.826 51 Ck. 74 75 1,000 00 1,000 00 5,925 20 2,441 95 534 95 500 (X) 53,669 61 924 Statements ofuccounts produced by E. Pacaud. LA BANQUE DU PEVPLE—rontinued. Aug. 5 July 30 Aug. 7 5 Aug, 7 8 8 10 9 10 9 11 10 11 / 13 10 14 21 Sept. 12 28 28 29 29 Aug. 29 29 29 29 29 Sept. 29 30 29 Oct. 1 Sept. 29 Oct. 3 Sept. 30 Oct. 7 May 6 Sept. 5 5 10 11 DETAILS. .a 6 H !^ c > Dr. Or. ' $1,360 61 51,826 51 20 00 12 50 5 00 50 00 45 00 30 00 30 00 10 00 40 00 2 54 53,669 61 Cheque produced. J. D. Andersun " " Ed. Gariicau ... Aiijr. Edge G SeitVrt '• " Private use " " Au8 Cheque produced, Errol Bou- chette Denosit 55 03 Balance in bank this day 1,.360 61 $1,360 61 219 69 Totals $58,577 18 58.577 18 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. 925 Dr. EXHIBIT 88a. Ernest Pacaub, in account mh La Ban.ue du Peuple, Quebec. 1891 May 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 26 Cheque 1 2 3 4 o . 7 . 8 . 9 . 10 . 11 . 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 81 32 33 34 35 36 87 38 39 40 Carried forward.... « 5,000 00 1,000 00 2,150 00 100 00 400 00 918 23 200 00 75 00 1,000 00 25 00 40 00 1,000 00 160 00 115 00 250 00 20 00 60 00 10 00 400 (to 1,000 00 150 00 45 54 19 00 100 00 25 00 12 50 150 00 22 50 14 25 600 00 39 00 7,000 00 15 4(1 80 00 51 12 I 100 00 200 00 25 35 1,000 00 130 00 23,&S2 89 50 00 10 00 425 00 60 00 15 85 550 0() 43 92 « 24,777 16 1891 May 14 15 16 18 26 Balance Discount . Deposit..,. Discount . Deposit.. * 219 69 19,720 00 1,000 00 1,419 80 195 85 1,500 00 1,000 00 Carried for 926 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. Ek:test Pacaud, in account with La Banque du Peuple, Qweftec— Continued. Gb. De. June Brought forward .. May 6 Cheque 41 Balance Cheque 'li^ " 43 44 " 45 46 8 9 11 12 17 18 20 22 25 26 26 2f; 27 $24,777 16 17 60 260 58 $:i5,().>') ;i4 " 47 " 1^1!*!^1!!!!!11^» 48 49 " 50 " 51 " 52 53 " 54 55 " 56 " .57 " 58 " 59 60 " 61 61a 62 " , 63 >' 64 « 65 " 66 " 67 " 68 69 Note 70 Cheque 71 '• 72 " 73 " 74 " 75 " 76 77 " 78 Balance.. 300 UO 100 00 100 00 30 00 58 63 119 31 30 00 28 35 30 00 35 45 30 00 30 00 133 00 43 22 39 56 200 00 50 00 15 00 25 00 15 00 2H 78 9 45 50 00 25 50 10 00 10 on 152 54 3 50 50 00 22 50 29 15 50 00 40 00 6 90 50 00 18 48 25 00 50 00 50 (X) 37 95 332 56 Brought forward, June f 2,464 83 9 10 15 26 $25,055 84 $25,055 34 Balance ... Deposit., 260 58 500 00 204 25 500 00 500 00 500 00 $ 2,464 83 July 2 Che Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud Ea^sT P.C.™, .„ „._, „,, ^ ^„„,„^ ,„ p«,;::^:z~i. X ^ 928 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud. Ernest Pacaud, in account with La Banque du Peuple, QMffiec— Continued. Dr. Ce. July 24 25 Broue;ht forward... Cheque '. . 124 . 125 . 126 . 127 . 128 '. 129 . 130 . 131 . 132 . 133 . 134 $15,008 45 212 50 3(t 00 50 0(1 285 36 10 IX» 3,000 00 3,00(1 00 5 00 154 04 21 71 100 00 51 to 00 15 00 1,093 31 August 1 5 6 Sept. 1 12 28 29 Brought forward. 4 Ralftnp.e $23,485 37 25 l< 27 C( 30 (( tl U It ti t( t( u Cheque ■ . 135 '. 136 . 137 . 138 . 139 . 140 . 141 . 142 ! 143 '. 144 . 145 . 146 . 147 . 14» . 149 . 150 . 151 . 152 $23,485 37 $23,485 37 118 25 75 at 100 00 300 00 10 00 70 00 28 66 11 17 100 00 2,500 00 20 00 534 95 20 00 12 50 5 00 ,H1 00 45 00 30 00 30 00 10 00 40 00 2 54 457 14 1,093 31 534 95 August 1 Deposit 3 Discount 500 00 2,441 95 6 7 8 10 • 11 13 14 21 Prntpftt, "RolunpA ,... Note and Protest ... Oalilp . 153 . 154 . ir>.5 .. 156 .. X . 157 .. 158 $4,670 21 $4,570 21 202 54 5 75 400 00 5 50 1,452 02 1,000 00 1,136 55 457 14 Sept. 5 Deposit Discount Dpnosit 100 00 10 11 Or. in London, £60. Cable : Note and Protest.... r^HomiA I ■■• ](X) 00 1,432 85 3,000 00 28 29 Carried forward... (( Carried forward... $4,202 36 $5,089 i?9 Ebnkst Pa( Db. Sept. 29 30 Surp Chec Oo(. 1 2 3 5 Cheq A9 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud Ernest Pacaud, in account mth La Bangue du Peupl. OtteAec— Continued Cr. Sept. 29 30 Oct. Surpl. of interest Cheque ]59 » 100 „•; 161 ijalance Cheque 152 ,< 163 ., 164 165 .. 166 « 167 . 168 „ 169 170 171 13 30 239 87 65 46 300 00 269 00 .*5,089 99 16 11 80 85 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 113 35 16 10 6 75 87 50 00 $324 03 Oct. Brought forward $5,089 99 1 Balance Deposit.. $5,089 99 269 00 55 03 $324 03 59 980 Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud 89. EXHIBIT No. ( Translation) THE UNION BANK. 3 O s July. 10 10 n 11 11 11 11 11 21 u 03 8 11 11 11 11 11 14 17 21 DETAILS. « § o Deposit this day • Cheque produced. Deposit at the Banquedu Peuple •• Cheque produced of the Union Bank Savings Bank •■ Cheque produced to pay note signed by me, endorsed by Messrs. Mercier, Tarte, C. A. P. Pelletier and C. Langelier Cheque produced. $8,000.00 divided as follow: Deposit at the Merchants Bank $2,ti00: deposit at the Union Bank, Savings Baak Upper Town $2,000 : depoau. at credit of C. Langelier, at La Banqae du Peuple, $3,000. The balance employed to pay elec- tion and other accounts " Godreau "$1000 Note produced, cheque lost. ISote eigned by me, endorsed by Messrs. Mercier, Tarte, C. A. P. Pelletier, and C. Langelier Cheque produced. Current oliice expen- ses. 22 22 23 24 Aug. 9 10 9 10 9 10 10 10 10 10 Cheque produced. Barthe, corresp, Ottawa. Cheque produced for $7,000, and divided as follows : Deposit Merchants' Bank., $2,000 Deposit Union Bank, Savings Bank.. 1,0<30 Deposit, Banque du Peuple 1,000 Deposit C. Langelier, Banq. du Peuple 500 Handed to Hon. C. Langelier.. 1,500 Paid Armstrong's draft 1,000 Cheque produced. To pay note of 1st April signed by me, endorsed by Messrs.Mercier, Tarte.Senator Pelletier,C.and F.Langelier, note discounted by Mr. Demers, broker... Cheque produced. Money lent to Demers..., Cheque produced. Bill of exchange on Paris private ; :' Cheque produced. Ed. Ficken, architect, pri- vate ••:••■ Cheque produced. Money from Stocking Cheque produced. Money lent to Mr. Barthe Cheiiue produced. Deposit with Chs. Lange- lier Carried forward. 9 9a 10 11 12 13 14 Dr. $500 00 25,000 00 3,000 00 8,000 00 5,000 GO 29 Oo! 25 00 Cb. $60,000 00 7,000 00 5,000 00 3,000 00 1,500 00 1,000 00 50 00 500 00 500 00 |f>0,104 00 6 3 .1 •s OS August ] 9 ] 1 9 1 2 Sept. October 2 o $60,000 00 August 9 Sept. October Statements of accounts produced by E. Pacaud 981 THE UNION BANK-CorUm«erf. 11 11 13 24 28 1 18 ''thtSte?""^^' ''^''"^'"P '• P— 1 (at """"pSZ'.'^.T^- TickeVto'returnby-the Cheque missing. Ticket on board the s'S' B^^rT':!'? ''"■• ^""^« (at the Ktel Cheque produced. Ed." Garneau.V.!.".".'. Ss.p:?':.!!'^- ^-i'« Tanguay...;::::;::;:: Cheque produced. Xa^i^;" wkrren"::;::" Rai ^^°, >^"hn Warren Ba ance on 9th July, 1891.. Balance at credit, to be broughifom^d 14a 15 1.5a 15b 15c 16 16a 17 18 60,104 00 60,000 00 1,000 00 210 00 280 00 100 00 300 00 157 56 17 03 90 41 162,259 OOi 500 00 200 00 1,559 00 62,259 00 982 Statements of accovnts produced by E. Pacaud EXHIBIT No. 89a. Translation. The Union Bank of Canada, in account with Ernest Pacaud. Date. DETAILS. isyi July it 111 11 14 17 21 22 24 Aug. 10 10 10 10 10 11 12 13 14 28 Sept. 28 Oct. 1 Balance to credit., Deposit Cheque Deposit.. Cheque.. u Deposit. Cheque.. Balance to credit.. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 9a 10 11 12 13 14 15 15a 16 17 18 Dk. Cb. $ 500 00 25,000 0(1 3,t 00 00 8,000 00 5,000 00 29 00 26 00 7,000 00 5.000 00 3,000 (Kl 1,500 (10 1,000 00 50 (Kl 500 00 500 00 1,000 00 210 00 280 00 100 00 300 00 157 5fi 17 03 90 41 $62,259 00 1,559 00 60,000 00 V ^s t« ?5 O ^ o o * C ,*j Q ^ 09 l-l o « cS July 11 1 22 2 Aug. 10 Sept. 28 500 00 200 00 62,259 00 Certified copy of the account. E. E. WEBB, Cashier. Union Bank of Canada, Savings Department, in account with Ernest Pacaud. Money on hand : Banque du Binque du Union Ban! Union B^ml Merchants' National Pa Cash 1891 July 10... 11.. Aug. 10... Balance to credit . Deposit Cheque Balance to credit. $25,000 00 20 $ 00 20 25,000 00 125,000 20 $25,000 20 Certified copy of the account. E. E. WEBB, Cashier, Union Bank of Canada, (juebec, 17th October, 1891. F'lSSfciiiiiiiiiaiiaaffiiiH Statemtnls of accounts produced by E. Pacaud 988 July 11 22 Aug. 10 Sept. 28 EXHIBIT No. 90. (Translation.) MERCHANTS' BANK. 11 22 ^Ck"...^.*""'^' '^™^" f^'^"^ tl^e Union Cheque divided a« follows • Deposit at La Banqiu'du Peunl V A . Tr ^^^ "^"'"n Bank Paid to Hon. G. Irvine Chs Degiiise M. Powell 100 00 2(10 00 500 00 100 00 UK) 001 3,000 00 2,000 00 2,000 00 EXHIBIT No. 91. ( Translation.) Money on hand &','2 1' ^'^"P,'^' S^^'"K« Branch ten Banl^'^.P'"' ^^P°«*' *° g"^™"*^^ discounV: Union B,.nk. Uppo^Town.V.V." MpFchants' Bank... National Park Bank, New York Cash -I 447 85 • 3,000 00 90 41 55 25 62 74 . 20,000 00 • .1,800 00 125,456 26 984 ExhUfils $5,000. EXHIBIT 1^0. 86-1. {IVanskUion,) 18,178 La Banque Nationale, 15th April. 1891, Quebec. Quebec, 15th April, 1891. One month after date, for value received, I promiae to pay, to the order of the Honourable Honors Mercier, at the office of the Union Bank, the sum of live thousand dollars. (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. La Banque Nationale, Paid 15th Mav, 1891, 3 Quebec 3 Endowed— Honors Mercier, Chs. Langelier, C. A. P. Pelletier, F. Langelier, Ernest Pacaud. Quebec, 14th May, 1891. The Banque Nationale. Pay to (note of the 18th May) or bearer, five thousand dollars. (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. t6,000.00 La Banque Nationale, 28th February 1891, Quebec. EXHIBIT No. 88-1. ( Translation.) 15 .505. Quebec, 28th February, 1891. Two months after date,".ior value received,! promise to pay, to the order of the Honourabl* Honor6 Mercier, the sum of five thousand dollars. (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD. Endorsed— Ei $5,000. Endorsed— Honors Mercier, F. Langelier, Chs. Langelier' C. A. P. Pelletier, Ernest Pacaud. Protested for non payment, Quebec, 1st May, 1891 ; costs, $3.58. C. T., N. P. Quebec, 6th May, 1891. Paid The Banque du Peuple. Pay to (M. note) or bearer, five thousand 6th May, 1891, dollars. Quebec. (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. ■^'•-'' rmrm:i^: mm. Exhibits 985 •2,000.00. La Banqur du People Paid 6th M*y 1891, Quebec. 12,150.00. .^*y »o or bearer, received. EXHIBIT No. 88-3. (Tranalalioi QUBBBC, 2nd March, 1891. wTTartTa^hf ''«?'''■ I P'"'"*''^ to pay to .he order of J.- vXe received ""^" " ^"^'«^' *^° '^^^^ "^ '^o"-- ^or (Sign. 1) i^ANGFTJER. Endorsed-J. Israel Tarte, Ernest . .»caud. Qdebec, 6th May, 1891. LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. two tliousand one hundred and fifty dollars, for valu. (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD. t •1,000.00 EXHIBIT No. 88-10. ( Translation.) Two montlis after date, I promise to pay to the order dollars, for value received. " i,ue oruer Quebec, Slst March, 1891. Endorsed— Ernest Pacaud, F. L„„gel of Ernest Pacaud, one thousand (Signed), J. ISRAEL TARTE. ler. Banqde du Peuplb. "'hMav. ir ' Quebec. 11,000.00. LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Pay to (Tarte's note) or bearer, one thousand dollara. Quebec. 11th May, 1891. (Signed), ERNEST PACAUD. Banque du People, 11th May, 1891, Quebec. Banqoe du People. Paid 11th May, 1891, Quebec. Vl 'n, / IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ^1^ ^ 1^ y£ 1112.0 IL25 i 1.4 U^ 1.6 Hiotographic Sciences Corporailion r<\^ <^ k '% \ o^. O"^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14S80 (716) S72-4S03 986 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 88-16. $400.00. Twenty days after date, I promise to pay to my own order, at my office in Quebec, * a '' *° ^he order of the thousand dollare. ^ "^ ^''^ ^"'"^ Bank, in Quebec, the sum of six (Signed) ERNEST PACAUD Oct. 3. Endorse ^-Honor^ Mercier, Chs. Langelier Good as a security, this 3rd October, 1891. HONORS MERCIER, EXHIBIT No. 99. (Translation) LiOT of deposits and other disbursements ma^» ; • ^''^'^^''' ^^''' "^P"'' ^^^^^ Federal elections :- '''"''"^'"«"*« "^^^^ '" connection with the contestations of Quebec West LIslet .'..,' $1,017 00 Megantic *".!...."".....".... ^'^^O 00 Richmond and Wolfe ^'^^^ ^ Rimouski 1-025 00 Three Rivers ....'........"..".'. l-'^SO 00 Champlain ...'*'. 1.017 00 Champlain .....'.'."..."...,...'. ^'^^'^ ^ Champlain ........"!!!. ^^ 00 Quebec Centre ."."........ 10 00 Montmorency ''" ' = '" ''^00 00 1,000 00 I ( 940 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 100. Ernest Pacaud in account with Union Bank of Canada. Date. 1891 30th April.. latMay 1st do 2nd do 4th do 18th June.., 4th July.... 6th do 10th do 11th do nth rto 11th do.... nth do. Partioularg. Balance Cheque Note Cheque do Interest on note.. Deposit Cheque Deposit Cheque do nth do.... 14th do 17th do 21th do 22th do 24th do Ibth August. 10th do 10th do 10th do 10th do 10th do nth do 12th do 13th do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do Deposit Balance at credit. 17th AuKutt, 1891. Dr. $ cts. 4,000 00 5,000 00 100 00 110 50 153 45 Cr. Balance. 5,500 00 500 00 25,000 00 3,000 00 8,000 00 5,000 00 29 00 25 00 7,000 00 5,000 00 3,000 00 1,500 00 1,000 00 50 00 600 00 500 00 1,000 00 210 00 280 00 $ cts. 9,222 95 7,200 00 60,000 00 f cts, Days. 465 00 ( 76,922 95 Interest. 500 00 76,922 95 EXHIBIT No. 101. IN THE MATTER OF THE BAIE OF THE DES CHALEUES RAILWAY. Statement showing the oflfer made by the syndicate represented by A. Mr. Thom, Esq. 1. Balance of subsidy $260,000 2. Subsidy for the Cascapedia bridge - ^>^^ 8. The Government agrees to p.^y to the company the subsidy of 800,000 acres of land. By a letter from Mr. Thom, dated the 24th April, 1891, the conversion is to be made at the rate of 70 cts. per acre, in money. By a letter of E. Moreau, Esq., Director of Railways, of the same date, Mr. Thorn's letter is accepted, say 800,000 acres at 70 cts 560,000 The Baie des ( following facts : It has built th remains 60 miles reach that of Gasp The construct: ascertained by gl first section. The o for a first class rail' superstructure of si and viaducts are ali that can be built. Total „.......=.=======., $ 870,000 Exhibits 4. To pay the company's debta. Statement showing John J. Macdonald's offer 1- 40 miles at $10,000 Dor mJi«> K If «-100,000.00 miles shall have boeTcoSe^ d ' n , r^''^ ^^^ built shall be placed ^n^ZttfZ')! ''o' '' "^'^^ ^'^-^v shall be advanced to the ^£io„'oMh 'gcv """ ""^"''""^ completion of the whole work M?! » , Government for the be paid until the road .s com^tte y '±"1' °f ''^ ^"'^'^^ "«» ^^ Btock to the satisfaction of Zr Goir '"^ "''^ «''°'' ^o"'ng • 15th November. ,890. to Hon H Meroir"" '' '" '^"^' °^ ^^^ 2. Subsidy granted for the Cascapedia Bridge * 50,000.00 I offered Mr. Riopel. the eeneral rv,o . 450,000.00 I also estimated to nav to M r p ■ « °' Ifurther undertook'To'lp^^rl ,tT'"""^^^^ bonds, $840 000.00. ^>"> *h« Government, to guarantee thr?nterest on Quebec, 27th October, 1891. EXHIBIT No. U4. ' (l^anslution.) THE BAIE DES CHALEUES RAILWAY COMPANY. The Hon. Mr. Mercier, Q"=bec, 28th May, 1888. ' ^"'■'"^ ^^^■"^''^ «/<*« Provincelof Quebec, Quebec. Sir, Ine construction of the 40 milPfl 942 Exhibits The 60 miles remaining to buikl to reach New Carlisle comprise several large bridges, especially at the following places : Stewart River, Grand and Small Cascapedia River, Maria, Green, Jacquot, Watt and Leblanc streams, the Small and Grand River Bonaventuie, the Cullens and Day streams The total cost of these varibus bridges will exceed $300,000. In addition, at Carleton and Black Cape, it will be necessary to cut two large capes of rock for a considerable distance and to make a sort of revetment wall to prevent the sea from washing out the roadbed. It is not necessary to say that these works mn«t l.e very expensive. In many places the land is broken and very undulating, which comLdoial.ly inc. eases the cost of the grading. All these facta taken into consideration, the company is itself obliged to ask the Government of Quebec to grant it an additional subsidy or else to allow it to receive the first thirty-five cents payable on the section of its railway from Paspebiac to Gaspd, a distance of 80 miles in the first 80 miles of road from Matapedia to Paspebiac, in proportion as they shall be completed, substituting these 35 cents for the last 35 cents paynble on the hrst portion of its railway from Matapedia to Paspebiac. Railways built in other portions of the Province have the advantage of having their terminus in or traversing large centres of population which subscribe large sums to receive the benefits arising from railway communication. The Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com. pany has not this advantage. Throughout the whole region, traversed by its line, there is not a single village or noticeable collection of population, so that it cannot depend upon any serious help from the municipalities. There is another reason in favor of this request, and that is the impetus which the carrying out of this enterprise will give to colonization. With the exception of Maria, New Richmond and Caplan, the localities traversed by the Baie des Chaleurs Railway have only one range inhabited that alongside the sea. On a distance of sixty miles it would be possible to settle several ranges and to push colonization for a distance of about twenty miles into the interior which would inevitably be done as soon as the road would furnish means of com- munication, which are now lacking. The carrying out of this enterprise would consequently insure the prompt settlement of a territory approaching a million oJ acres of excellent land, or sufficient to double the present population of this territory, which only awaits that to be developed as much as possible. There are other considerations which are self-evident : The Baie des Chaleurs Railway will necessarily develop the commerce which might be carried on on the north shore of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, commerce for which the ports of Gasp6 and New Carlisle are already two of the principal outlets. Navigation is possible between the north shore and Paspebiac up to the end of December in the autumn, and from the 15th of March in the spring, which gives about three months more than by way of the Gulf During these three months fishermen might take and sell large quantities of fish which they lose now, lacking means of transport to send them to market. That navigation is possible all winter with Europe, Brazil, West India, etc., for there aro no serious obstacles to be overcome, as it was established in 1876 by a committee of the House of Commons It is important to mention the fact that this road has already been indicated by Mr. Sanford Fleming as being the shortest and easiest to communicate with Europe. Exhibils 943 reach St. John's, making the tour by the soufh nf .>, t , ! ' "'"' " '« '^^out oif, miles to as between Halifax and 8t. John's hy wate^ut taVi n 'f " '' '« "^^^^^ '^e same clilnce s a coneu erable difference in favor oTttouteifR^-'^'r "" '^ P^'"' of departure he e the following table. '^""^^ ^^ Ba>e des Chaleurs, as will be seen by From Quebec to Gasp^-Bailwav a^^ .. From Gasp, to St. John's-WateZ.::.: S "'" From Quebec to St. John's TTT „ From Quebec to ...lifax-Railwa; ^74 . From Halifax to St. john's-wZ:;::::: S .: From Quebec to St. John's ^ pork (l„„r, butl,r, etc. Th. farmer, orih.p' ^ 'f "l>ich they c„„.„„,e ,„„,, ^ rf«"' "'"l^'' for their pr,KU,ee,,"°l*'ji^"™°-' "' ?""'™ ""»'-' ">«" ""e ," shorter and eMier with ihi. market i, 'T f"'.'""' ""'"'"""'oation would be oD«ned „n co„,.n,c.i„„ „, thi, railwavTSrefore ./"r ""?"'' *' «''»"■"» """^ay 'Z' «ne,!-.Srh"e:;^:irrtrp;r^^^^^^ <-f .-e a... ,e.i„„, „„e „nhe s^orrr-rtChir-^idB'^^ 3 To get the benefit, for the Province of tL faculties of communication, which woX nle he ^-7' ''T'"""'''^"^' ^^ ---« 4. To open n the ProvincB fwn =00., V !1 monopoly ot that trade. i. .cc«.ih,e,. .„ .i^.sT'r.r'Sr'oitZr '° ^-■-—f which.P„pebi.„, ' .0 -«-; rp':rr„srj^^^^^^^ do.™ ,„«„,„.„„., works shall be completed. '"^^ ^ •^''°^« «et forth in proportion as the By obtaining the additional aid asked fnr tu tically push forward the execution oftsentrpte'Th"' "'!,' '' '" ^ P°^^«- *« -erge allow I to get the funds which it requires, 1 '.S, a. h«T' '^'™"S«'"«»'« which will request. "^ ^«' ^ «oon a. the Government has acceded to its 944 Exhibitx The company hopes, Sir, that you will take into serious considerations the exceptional importance of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway a,.d that your government «>11 hberaUy encourage the enterprise which is now almost stopped owing to the pecuniary difficulties which it meets. The whole respectfully submitted, I have the honour to be Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) THEODORE ROBITAILLE, President. EXHIBIT No. U6. Copy of the Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council datrd the 20th March, 1890, approved by the Lieutenant Governor on the 2lBt March, 1890. No. 108. Respecting the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company. The Honourable the Commissioner of Public Works in a report dated the twentieth of March instant, 1890, sets forth :— , . „ . j . j ■ ^ That by a resolution of the Legislative Assembly of this Province adopted nermne con- tradtcnte at its sitting of the fifth of March instant, it was enacted: "That seeing he " urgency of the case and without making it a precedent, this House desires that the " Government adopt practical means to pay the wages of the persons who worked on section " K of the Baie des Chaleure Railway, to pay the farmers, who sold their produce in good •' faith and are not paid, as well as the board still due by the persons who worked on such "section of railway, and all the privileged claims, and this out of the value of the work " done and of materials on the spot as will be established by the Government engineer to be " deducted from the subsidies to become'due to the company." That the Government engineer, Mr. L. A. Valine on the 13th and 14th of March instant inspected the works done on the said section K of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway and was enabled to establish that the estimate prepared by.the engineer m charge, Mr. Leduc, dated the 19th October laat (1889) and produced on oath before the commission of enquiry is exact, that is to say, that the works executed on the said section, represent a sum ot «24,- 343 and the materials delivered on the spot and intended to be employed on the works represent an additional value of 19,833.66 say in all the sum of $33,376.67 for works executed and materials delivered upon said section K, the whole as appears by the inspection report of the said Mr. Valine dated the eighteenth of M irch instant ; That by a special report, dated the 30th of January last, Mr. Charies Langelier appointed by commission dated the 5th of October, 1889, commissioner to inquire luto the difficulties that arose on the Baie des Chaleurs Railway between the company of that ,arae and its Exhibits Honourable S CoZ • • ^ ^^ '^^""'^ ^^'«'' resolntion of thTr ,"'"'"'"""' "'' 'his Certified, (Signed), GUSTAVE GRENIER, ^l" of the Executive OounM. EXHIBIT No. 118. :~^=— ^^^^=^t^rt^::-- Ooncemiru, tHe Baie ,es Ckuleurs Eail.ay Company. U46 ExkibUi That it has availed iUelf of that act and ha. converted it« subsidy. It ha« "«* rece ved thefir.t3^centa for a length ,-,f 20 miles which it ha« completed. Bat the difficulties which t met w thin that part of its road which comes immediately •'fterv.ard ,ncrej«ed The cost so much that it could not cui/inue iU works unless a change is made in he methcxi of pa7i "K its subsidy. That change w.« made at the laet se^ion oi the Legislature, andjt consist in applying in the 80 miles, from the 20 miles already made a. tar as Paspe- bLc the !l™uhirty.five cenU of subsidy coming to the L«.t 80 miles from Paspeb.ac to ^'"^'^at it is important that the prompt completion of the road as far as Paspebiac be seouS as Paspebiac is tho only .seaport in the Province which is «P«" .^'^/^^ -" "'^ wh le year, and is a grand centre of the f.shenes industry of Uasp^ and Baie des Cha eun^ So ong L Uie road li not reached there, it is useles. fur the company to attempt to . el iU SoOO per mile of debenture, which it is authorized to issue. But once the road has ;.lhed there the company could by the sale of its debentures be in a position to continue ''' Tht Honourable the Commissioner therefore recommends that the Government avails itselfot the powers given by the act of the hu,t session in this matter and apply the first Wrtv-fivecents of the said last 80 miles upon the 80 n.iles ending at Paspeb.ac. '' rha > thlt^vould give the company the right to receive $70,000 on t^e^- ^ - - already completed, the Honourable the Commissioner further recommends that he said turn bepaTdto it upon the condition set forth in the statute, that ib o say : that the ,eclSth"ty-Sve cents of the 80 miles from the 20 miles from Metapedia to Paspebiac h« anolied to the 80 miles from Paspebiac to Ga«p6. , ^ „ ui *i,„ The Honourable the Commissioner recommends, however, that the Honourable the TreJurer should retain out of this sum. the sum of eight thousand dollars, un > the c JaTsl a 1 have furnished proof that the privileged clai.ns of the workmen o those who Sied'n^terial, and claims for right of way, upon the part already >" ''hole orpirtly Wit be^d M,; Government reserves the right, in the terms of the act passed m that Sf at the lit session, to impose the conditions it deems necessary to secure, tbe ^^Imction. within as short a delay as possible, of the railway as far as Ga«p6 Basin. Certified. (Signed), GUSTAVE GRENIER, Clerk of the Executive Council- Exhibitt EXHIBIT No. 127. WST OF SHAREHOLDERS OF THF BArP n. -Cth October, 1891. J^obert H. McGreevy L . Angus M. 'Jhom....: S-"^*'^'' • Samuel Shackell... ' jMontieal Jhihcs Cooper., AlexHiKler Ewine James WiUiamsnn Will. Cassells S. Lonergan 33,0(10 3,r)00 J, 000 26,r)0O 233,500 500 500 500 504) 5(K) • too.ooo 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 QuKBEc, 14th May 1891. EXHIBIT No. 128. DfiPARTMEm OF PUBLIC WORKS. A. M. Thom, Esq., Secretary-Treasurer, Dkar Sir, ^""^ "'' '''"'*"'■' ^'"-'^'-i' Company. Yours truly, (Signed), p. GARNEAU, - — — Go>n7)iigaioner. 948 Exhibits Province of Qukbec, District of Montreal. . No. 163G. EXHIBIT No. 131. SUi'EKIOR COUKT. The twenty-seventli day of June, eighteen hundred and ninety-one. Present :— The Hon. Judge Paonuelo. The Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, a body politic ai.d corporate, having iUs piincipal place 01' bueiness at Quebec, in ihe Diatiict oi' Quebec, Plaintiffs ; va. Henry MacFurlane, Railway Builder, of the City of Toronto, in the Province of Ontario, and Charles Newhouse Armetrong, Contractor, of the City of Montreal, in the District of Montreal, and Alexander F. Riddell, Accountant, and Thomas Watson, Contractor, bi>th of the City and District uf Montreal, in their capacity of joint curators to the insolvent estate of the commercial firm of '• H. MacFarlane &, Son," doing business in the Province of Quebec, consisting of Heury MacFarlane, the defendant above nieu- tioded, and of Geoige Henry MacFarlane, Contractor, of Toronto, in the Province of Ontario, and The said Company, plaintifls, Defendants ; Petitioners. We, the undersigned. Judge of the Superior Court for Lower Canada, having heard the parties upon the petition presented the 6th June instant, by the company plaintifls, in order to obtain the temporary and provisional use and occupation of the railway of the said com- pany, constructed by the defendant MacFarlane, and of which he has remained in possession until this day by virtue of a clause inserted in the contract madelbetween the parties for the construction of this road ; also to obtain the temporary und provisional use and occupation of the rolling stock, building materials and tools fur the purpose :— 1. Of repairing the sixty miles of the road already in part constructed by MacFarlane ; 2. Of completing that part of the road and more particularly two bridges of which the foundations alone exist ; 3. Of constructing the remainder of the road. The whole subject to the legal possession of the defendant Watson and T'ddell curators fO the goods abandoned by the defend.mt MacFarlane, insolvent, and without prejudice to the rights and privileges which they can have upon the load and of which the nature and extent shall be determined by the linal adjudication in this cause, having taken communi. cation of the writings of the parties, the exhibits and proofs of record, and upon the whole deliberated : Seeing that by contract between the defendants Armstrong and MacFarlane and the company plaintiffs, of date the 8th June, 1888, the defendant MacFarlane agreed to complete and finish the forty miles of a road of the company plaintiffs then in course of construction, and to furnish all the material for constructiuu and rolling stock ; 2. To construct twenty miles of nei that the roa above menti Farlane, aa i the right to Seeing t him abandor strncted and that on the c «400,0()0, for : the said con mitted to Moi other hand, contract for n put thenjselvt pending. Considerir having entirel; deprive MacFa before account actions, and thj for the constru( Coni>iderinj but only the tei rial and tools fo the legal posses.' upon the road, t and make the b: that the platforn company will ex the company is ( ment of Canada i the Government this work withon paid in full the w lane ; that (he de provide therefor f the company plai which may be adj the sixty miles wi Considering t] 60 miles of road u the construciion o question, and that IS ; that the works the 60 miles consti sible to reconcile t by MacFarlane ; if, Exhibits Farlane, a« JZtTlTT '" '^' P"--«>-on and n, t. "ht . TT' ""'"'' '^''^■"""^ the right to recn er f orrr """ """' ^''^'-^nt of the who! Tn 'v'.^l'^ ^^^''^^ ^I**- ^. Seeing that the aid ieParTaT" '' "' '''' '^'^'^-^ conta t ' "'''' '^^""'"^ '^-« h.m abandoned, has alwn^ bfe, !? -"^ ''"' ^-^ ''■""'«" strncted and of the ^1^3^'': ""^ '« ""'^ *" P"«se«sin that on the one hand he ^^:± ^---^<' ^he.with, ns stipulated in th^ ^^ Z^::: Seeing that the said MacPar7a?e"„«w«liK .- — nhnnH«r,„j i. . • "" Well by hinisplf oo K .l '■« -w inVo r f ro5^.f; '^".-*-« to the offects by thatontheonehTnd'heisbT'r.""^^'-' ^"--ith, "s tip 1;:;^ T '^' '*'" -"' »400,(X)0. for material bv iT^ '^T ''""'•* ^'^'mingngainst Ee In ' '"'' '^""^^'^'^^ ' the said contrarl'f l?f_ '^^"•"'«'^-'' «"" work done II^"; thoslif"'' r'"""^^^^'^'""^ 'hec under nn,«Kl'LT' '^':°"^^'i"S to put themselves in no? ' ^ ^^^ '"''^ MacF„rlane of na.^?- u,'"" '" '■^«*''''t<^ the said pending. '" P°"^-'°" «f th - -oad, and that those t'ol^r "'"^^^■-- """^ 'iemand to actions are contested and still Considering that the d bt *""' '°"'''*''^ ''"'' '"" before accounrs have ttn 'Sd T ^ ''^ ^'^'^^^ toi,ii;,f .^ ^ ^o " '""^^ ° '"""' actions, and that tb« . "^ between the parties bv Tr , ™'"Pany plaintiffs forthecon'tlctn^tr'"-^^ '" *^« ''-d ^ Con.iderin?;;e:en 'e ,;::■; ;uh''"t -'^ ^^"^'-'^ «tocr^'^"^ ^^"'^^ ^'-^^ -'-.ht owe him --?t:^tsr^"^^-^^^^^^^^^ the legal Possess .nirST/ 1"^!.'" ^"^' -"-true io,T "this :jn' 'f """^ ""'- upon the road, and al ege thaUh . r'"? '" '''' "^"^^^ -"d p ivnle Ih f"'.'; ^'^^^'^^^^'o and make the bridges inn,.- ^f "^"^'""^^ ^re not in a posi ion?.V ' ^"^ ''^" ^^^^ that the platform ofTw. ;^ " ' '^''' *^« '•"^'i is detenofatir^T l^™'"^'*^ ^''^ ««"tract companyVll eTp^re ri«Tr'''"' '^''"^« '^^^^ "o TeeTSd ,? r^"^^-"'"^«tock; the company is eZsei to In '""T"' "'" ^'^^ '•"'^'' ^hieh w^, not L In '^' ''^"*-- «'" the mentofknllaandTAhe wL^ ^^-h have b en vo edt"irr';r^^''" '^'^^ the Government of Ouebee,.''^"'^Q''«hec; that it is nn,ir«i^^ -" "'" ^«^^'-"- this work without hStl" '""^^'^ ™''««o'-"«wroad L^dtha 'kir'"'"^r*^''' "'^■■"••^« paid in full the workmenVw "'' "' '''' ^' ™>"'^» ^Iread; con tr cteH 'Tr^'-'"'' '" P'^''^^™ lane ; that the deirntnTs\:Xrd^r "■" "'^'^^ P^^^ provide therefor authorize, tLT '""•ntain the security anl hnT t^ ^ ,*^'''^^'" the company plaint ffsTrl *^^/''"^Pa»y plaintiffs to mnke thl'T . . ^^"'' ''^''^"'t to which m'yLt",'^^d:t'h^^^^^^^^^ - '^P-ii'^^to'pTy" ':T";-^"'^ ^'^'^t the sixty miles w 11 inpll the defendants, and that the works wmT^-.u "" ^^^ ''"^"""t h„ AT -n , """^ """ uemancl now made hv »»,„ ■i'-«"'<"m rnisea is to know if ii grant lo the corapa„j il,e temporary use of 950 Exhibits the road and of the rolling stock for the purposes indicated without putting in danger the rights which the stipulated clause of retention in favor of MacFarlane can confer upon him : Considering that the retention stipulated in favor of MacFarlane confers upon him rights ; Ist, against the company ; 2nd, against the creditors of the company ; that the pledge of an immovable confers upon the creditor to whom it is pledged the right of receiving the fruits of the immovable on condition of imputing them upon the debt and of retaining the im- movable until final payment thereof (Art. 1967, C. C), but that the privilege only exists in so far as the pledge remains in the possession of the creditor or of a third person agreed upon between the parties. (Art. 197i», C. C ) Considering that with regard to the debtor the possession of the creditor can operate either personally or by an agent, and even by the debtor if the creditor makes him his agent or receiver, and tliat any agreement between them to that effect is valid and should be executed ; that the Judge called upon to settle the rights of the parties according to law and equity can grant to the debtor provisional and temporary use of the thing pledged without prejudice to the rights of the creditor upon the claim, as against the debtor, and that the partial possession which he may grant in such case to the debtor should be specified and should constitute for the debtor only a temporary possession for a special purpose ; that besides the possession of the creditor does not , revent the proprietor from seeing to the preservation of the thing and from making repairs and new constructions which he may judge suitable ; that the Court can always intervene to insure to tbe creditor the benefit of the pledge which is granted to him ; that under these circumstances and in con- sideriition of the facts of the case, and principally the greater interest of the plaintiff in not losing its charter in part and destroying the road, and the advantage which MacFarlane will have from the works which the company declares itself ready to perform, the Court W(5uld be justified in intervening to permit the proprietor to repair and complete the road as also to make use of it for the purpose of extending it ; provided that it only gives to the company a temporary possession, under reserve of the rights which the clause of retention can c infer upon MacFarlane as against the company, but that in this case the company could only demand the use of the road and rolling stock which are its own property, and cannot on any ground demand the building material and implements of MacFarlane. AS EEQARBS THE CREDITORS OF THE COMPANY. Considering that the pledge of an immovable does not confer uf)on the creditor anv privileges in the immovable itself, but only a right to receive the revenues, and to retain the immovable until payment (Art. 1967 and 1975) ; that it does not prevent the proprietor from selling the immovable or hypotlu eating it ; that this subsequent sale or hypothec will rank before the pledge accorded to the creditor, if it has been registered before the title creating th» pledge ; that in this case the creditor's possession will be without effect as against the hypothec^iry creditors or the subsequent purchaser who have registered ; that if the pledge has been registered before the subsequent sale or hypothecation the creditor to whom the pledge has been given could perhaps set up '.is title against the subsequent purchaser or hypothecary creditor, but that in every case the possession of the creditor holding the pledge would add nothing to his rights against the subsequent hypothecary creditor or purchaser, anE QUEBEC Qdebkc, loth March, 1891 HONOR]?; MEKCIER. Per A. C. ^^ositof,,,,,,,^,, 100 Dollars III 964 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 160. {Translation.) QUKBEC, 9th December, 1890« The Hon. Mr. Pierre Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works. Sir, I have the honour to submit you my final report upon the application of the 128,546 which were entrusted to me to pay the claims of workmen and others against the first sixty miles of the Baie des Chaleuis Railway. As you may observe by my first report, I paid in the locality, from the 28th November to the 6th of December, 1889, a sum of $17,179.42. I forwarded to your department a nomi- nal list of these payments and the receipts attesting the same. I have since paid in dis- charge of claims 18.889.98. I forward to you with this report a list of these payments with the receipts attesting same. The costs occasioned by the payment on the spot amounted to $320.58. Those of the inquiry amount to $456.02 and have been paid out of the money given me. I send you the receipts for the same. The application made by me of the $28,547, given to me, is made up as follows :— Dr. Amount of the cheque... $28,546.00 Cr. Paid on account of claims $24,069,40 Paid for expenses 2,476.60 28,546.00 You will allow me, sir, to observe, with respect to the expenses that those of the inquiry apply to section K as much as to the first sixty miles, and it seems to me that in justice, they should be equally divided against the subsidy coming to each part of the road, that is to say, one-half on the subsidy coming to the sixty miles of Mr. Macfarlane & Son and half on that of section K, to the eaft of the Grand River Ciscapedia. As these expenses amount to$2,456 02, that would be $1,078.01 to be taken from the Macfarlane & Son's sections to the benefit of section K, belonging to Mr. Armstrong. Now, these are the reasons which prevented me from making the balance of the payments as fast as I would have wished. As you know. Sir, the Ontario Bank, on knowing that the Government was paying that balance of subsidy, protested, under pretext that these $28,540.00 belonged to it under a transfer of the subsidy comprising a much larger amount. I had nothing to do with these pretensions of the bank, butiso as to proceed with more safety and not to expose the Govern- ment to embarrassments, I thought it better to wait, as far as possible, the decision of that contestation. In addition to that, the larger part of the claims paidsinoe the 6th December, 1889, were neither produced at the enquiry nor admitted by Macfarlane & Son. The difficulty was soon further complicated by these gentlemen being put into bankruptcy and the placing of their books of account in the assignees' hands, Messrs. Riddell and Watson, of Montreal. It became almc enquiry. I d the claim, so evident that, interested woi Wcount for th lost them. Articlks 03 of Our Lord one Between H and herein reprj part, and The Baie dj Whereas bj eight, the necess of the sum of thi colonial Railway Province of Queb And whereas and under date t (holders of a Prov and beyond to Ga of Quebec and by twenty miles of rci line, under the siij such conditions as ing therefor the sa and re voted in 18& And whereas h date the eighteentl: said Minister h.is and to place in thei road from Metape certain conditions h Now, therefore. Her Majesty the Qu inafter mentioned: ' *"^ ^^^ I'rovince would have I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, (S>>ed), J. C. LANGEUEK. EXHIBIT No. 168. certam conditions hereinaftern.entioned '" "'' ""'"^^^ ««^-"--'* «»pervirn and I vrM^lM' «56 ExhUtits Ist. That, the fsaid Company shall and will well and truly and faithftilly make, build, •construct, complete and equip a line of railway from Metapedia eastwards, towards Paspebiac, twenty miles, the points and route and course bein^ shown on the map. marked F and profile marked G. duly signed by the parties and remaining of record in the Depart- ment of Railways and Canals, where referonce thereto may be had, and all the works and equipment appurtenant to said line of railway, according to the description and specification hereunto annexed, marked A, and to the plans respectively marked B, C, D and E, duly signed by the parties hereto and remaining of record in the Department of Railways and Canals, where reference thereto may be had ; and that the said Company will build, construct, complete and equip the said line of railway, and shall perform all Engineeri.ig services whether in the field, or in preparing plans or doing other office works, to to the entire satis- faction of the Governor in Council. 2nd. That the gradients and alignment shall be in conformity with the plan of location, marked F, and profile, marked G, aforementioned. 3rd. That the Company shall and will furnish bills of quantities of the whole line of railway in sections of four miles, and that before the work is commenced ( n any section, such bills of quantities shall be approved by the Governor in Council, ind before any payments are made, the Company shall furnish such further returns as may b'j required to satisfy the Minister as to the relative value of the works executed with thi,t of the works remaining to be done. 4th. That the Company have already commenced the works embraced in this agree- ment, and will carry on the same with all reasonable despatch, and so that the whole line of railway from Metapedia eastwards, tow.irds Paspebiac, 20 miles in length, shall be completed by the first day of July, A. D., one thousand eight hundred and eighty-eight. 5th. That the Company will, upon and after the completion of the said line of railway and works appertaining thereto (if the said line of railway be or become the property of the Company as hereinafter provided), truly and faithfully keep the same, and the rolling stock required therefor, in good, sufficient and proper working and running order, and shall continuously and faithfully operate the same. 6th. That the said line of I'ailway and works appertaining thereto, shall be built, equipped and completed in all respects in accordance with the said annexed specification. 7th. And that (in the event of Parliament not disapproving of the present arrangement) the said line of railway and works appertaining thereto, together with all the franchises rights, privileges, property, personal and real, of every character, shall, upon the completion of the said line of railway and works appertaining thereto, be the property of the Company. 8th. It is hereby clearly understood that Her Majesty's Government of Canada, provi- sionally accept the offer of the said Company above cited, to make this section a part of their line, the said company undertaking to maintain and operate it as such, and that this arran- gement is made with a view to this issue, conditionally as aforesaid. 9th, In consideration of the promises and upon the terms and conditions hereinbefore and hereinafter mentioned. Her Majesty agrees to grant, and does hereby grant, to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, the said sum of three hundred thousand dollars for the twenty miles Revenue Fur «8 shall be oq established b: upon the cert Governor in C KHli. Tha thousand doll; to the Compai buildings and I'ight of way, g Engineering, a nth. It is the present arr miles shall not Government of and this contrai case shall be jia and above mom the then curren 111 witness porate sea] to bt the Secretary of set his hand ana the Department Signed by the ] Secretary of the corporate having been I presence of Signed and seali and by the Seer nient of Railwa- presence of Exhibits 957 'isssiiiiSiS Governor in Council. '""' ^"«'"-'- °^ «--„™ent Hailwa;. aL^raXa.^nh' Hth. It is hereby fnrtl lu witness whereof the Baie fl«<. nu i ^ porate seal to be affixed hereto ILth. «»" way Company have caused .1, • the Secretary of the suidPnl!^^*'' presents to be signed hv Z I \^ their cor- set his hand ana cau eJ^thler''' '"^ '^« ^^^'^'"^^ °^' Railways and gLI'TT' ""'^ ^^ -e Depannient of S^^rrals" '' '-''' ^^ ^^^-^i^"^^^^^^^^ 'tcttX^'oret^^-^bythe^^ the. corporate seal ol the Confrf"^' having been hereto affixed rt"^ presence of >*ujxea, in tne L. J. RIOPEL. ELZ^AR AUBjfc. (Signed,) THEODORE ROBITAILLE President B. C. R. Q,. L. A. ROBITAILLE, Secretary B. C. R. Co. (Signed,) H.A.FISSIAULT. M. DESJARDINS. J- H. POPE, ^i^i»^^ of Railways and Canals. A. P. BRADLEY, 958 Exhibilt EXHIBIT No. 169. Articles of Aani i.ment made aid entered into this seventh day of November, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five. Between " The Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company," of the first part, and Her Majesty Queen Victoria, represented herein by the Minister ot Railways and Canals, of the second part. WITNESSETH, that whereas it is, in uinl by im Act passed in the session ofthe Parlia- ment of Canada, held in the forty-sixth year of Her Majesty's reign, chapter twenty-five, and intituled : " An Act for authorizing subsidies for the construction of the lines of Rail- ways therein mentioned," amongst other things in effect enacted that " it shall be lawful for the Governor in Council to grant to the Bnie des Chaleurs Railway Company, for 100 miles of their Railway from Metapedia, on the Intercolonial Railway, to Paspebiac, in the Province of Quebec, a subsidy not- exceeding three thousand two htmdred dollurs per mile, nor ex- ceeding in the whole three hundred and twenty thousand dollars, the said subsidy to be graated lo such company, it being provided therein thrtt the line of Railway shall i)e com- menced within two years from the first day of .July, 1883, and completed within a reason- able time, not to exceed four years from and after the passing of this Act (25th May, 1883), to be fixed by Order in Council, and according to descriptions and specifications to be ap. proved by the Governor in Council on the report of the Minister of Railways and Canals, and specified in an agreement to be made by the company with the Government ; such subsidy to be payable out ofthe Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada by instalments in the completion of each section of not less than ten miles of Railway, proportionate to the value of the portion so completed in comparison with the whole work undertaken, to be established by •the report ofthe said Minister. Provided always, that the granting of such subsidy shall be subject to such conditions for securing such running powers or traffic arrangements, and other rights, as will afford all reasonable facilities and equal mileage rates to all railways connecting with that so sub- sidized, as the Government in Council may determine. And whereas provision ha« already been made, and by another Agreement of even date herewith for the construction and maintenance thereafter as a part of their own line ofthe first twenty mile section of the company's proposed railway, that is to say, from the Metapedia station of the Intercolonial Railway, to a point twenty miles eaatwardly therefrom towards Paspebiac, and for thepayment thereof out of a^ium ofThreehundred thousand dollars voted in the session «)f Parliament of the year 1884, and revoted in 1885, as a branch of the Inter- colonial Railway, it has been agreed, and it is hereby agreed, that so much of the subsidy of three thousand two hundred dollars per mile voted in 1883, for the whole line from Metapedia to Paspebiac, as had reference to the said first twenty mile section of said Railway, shall cease to apply to the said first twenty mile section, and that the present agreement shall apply only to the further eighty miles of the said line of railway. And whereas the Governor in Council has duly approved of the descriptions and specifications herito annexed, marked " A, " as the descrifttions and specifications for the construction ofthe railway from a point where the first 20 mile section mentioned in the other agreement of even date herewith, may terminate eastwardly from Metapedia station of the Interc «ighty miles Now TBI in the mann« to, and with 1. That 1 and complete another agree Intercolonial the points an marked " B ; ' struct and cor whether in th( tion of the Go 2. That th straight a con deviations as r as shall be alio 3. That th< country will a marked " A." 4. That the whole line of rn ten mile sectio Governor in Coi further returns t relative value of 6. That the shall complete tl and eighty-sever in default of sucl feit all right, clai also to any monc aforesaid due anc 6. That the C works appertainir therefor, in good, operate the same, It is hereby ft to request author! for the section coi eastward, from M miles now to be bi Exhibits Now THIS AGREEMENT WITNE8HFTH th«f in o -a ;n the „,anner a.ore«Hid, " The bIL T cl etrpl^r''""/' ''^ "'^''^ ""^'^'^y '^ be paid another agreement of thi« ZrllTteJZlV'T ''f, "^* '" '»''« «««''°" me'n ionX Intercolonial Railway and extenl'g h Sot to pZhf '""J. "'^^'^P^''''' "tation of .^ the po>nta and approximate route and c'Z be.n^'^ "' " '^l'''"'« °'" '^l'""' 80 mile, struct and complete the sai.l line of railway bridL. Tf . '^"•'*°' ^"'^ ^"i" ^nild, con whether in the field, or in preparing pS;2f;"^^ and all engineering serice^ tion of the Governor in Co noil. ^°"'*' °'^" "*«« ^o'ke, to the entire satiefac; -U^^ir T-LSn:^^^^ - .id line Of railway on a^ deviations as may seem absolutely indi8nen«ahl„rf"''^ mentioned, with only such aa shall be allowed by the GovernorTn Council ""' """"^ ^"^'-"-^ obstacfes'nS 3. That the gradients and alignment «h<.ii k„ ^u u country will admit of in confofrtrwith the af !,"'''' P'^^'^*^' ^««*»^- ^^ the marked "A." ''^ ^'*h '^^ aforesaid specification hereto annexed! whoit ^^sz;::'!^:!:,::^^:':^-^^' ^'^ -^ ^^"« ^f quantities of the ten mile sections, such profil s p^s 1^7^^^^^^^ '« commenced on an^ Governor in Council, and before anvnavZl "^ ''"'^"'"•es shall be approved bv thi further returns as may be req IS'to'rs y ^e MiTf' *i?«/-P-y wilf furnish'such relative value of the works executed XtJtmSg to b'elr ^"' "^"^'« ^ *«"^' and eigh y-seven time being declared to be r^ale ial anT>r., Ji //KsCfi- oj KuH joays and CanaU. A. P. BRADLEY, AnTicr,E8 OF 1888. Between Ilinry Pope, J Railway Comji Wheheas was authorized of the Legisiati hundred dollar.- dollars, for one to Paspebiac. in eight, further a ceeding in the ' Railway from M Quebee, subject and whereas tin agreement, nuulc both bearing dat five, liave undert in the said instrn miles of the railv And whereas referred to were a been executed by mentioned Act uj ward, the said fori applied for assista ing sixty miles of ( of Canada and tli «3,2()() pe,' mile, «p shall be made upp] of, being the secti eastward from Meti to the said thirty a and it has been fun due completion of t and statutes in that from the Governme the amount of I20(), charter (ch.o3 of th siderationofthepr€ of the said parties t( acknowledged, Her I doth hereby agree to ai Mxlubilt EXHIBIT No. 170 wa« J^^l ;^:„tf ^""^-'^th Victoria, chapter twonty-Hvo th. r ' of the Leg,«la „ro o M p ' ^'"' ^''^'» ^^'"''«"'« Railway r m "•"■"'"" '" <-'«"''cil hundred S a e ' ,! ■""""" '"' ^"«^«'^' "^ «»'-'ly nu iZ-"' ' '"-^.orated hy Act toPa^^ebiarintS;^^^ eig.;t.Lher":i^;;r;t^tn^-i b. t..e ^t::^:::^^^^:'^^' ceoding in the wlmi^ »i i-'^*^" to the Oovernor n Coiinr-ii »« '"cioria, chapter H.Hw.1- fro,„\,: *,':::, 3"^ ".-■-n.i -io,„„,';r .x," ?:";•■;"■ ";■' «• Quebec, subject in hnM ' '"^^'fls PMspebiac twenfv r! ^''teic.lonial a™ wherew by Ihc Act 40 Vio ch 17 ,1, . ' • of Canada and tl Ir ^' ""'^ " h'»« been atrreed bv anH h '^ '°''' -'^main- •o the ..id m„y z^z ."1;;;. r:t'," ■"""■• '° ""■ '■"<■"' *'"Ce m™'::';,/ ;"°i7 and it has bepn fnwi,. """'aj. as a Ooveinment subsidy *ho fnii =. ..^^ P' licable /.j - <-_ua „naii pay 10 II 962 Exhibits the Company as a subsidy for the completion vi that section of the said Railway, begmmng with the 4l8t mile and going eastward and tndiuR wilh the 70th mile, at the rate ol $3,200 per mile in addition to the subsidy already applicable to the said section in pursuance ot the agreements and statutes in that behalf, such subsidy to be payable at the time and m the miinner, and subject to the same conditions as the said subsidy already provided lor is applicable thereto. . It is further agreed between the parties that the Company hereby waives and gives up all right to be paid any subsidy or receive any sum of money under any contract heretofore existing between the parties of any statute in that behalf in respect to the said last thirty miles of the said 100 miles of railway, the company hereby undertaking and agreeing to construct and complete the same in pursuance of the said contract and statutes without a further subsidy from the Government of Canada; and It is hereby further agreed between the parties that before any money shall become payable to the Company under this contract, the Company shall deposit with the Government, as security lor the completion of the last 30 miles of the said railway, the Company's first mortgage bonds to the amount of $200 000 issued under and in pursuance of sections 13 and 14 of their charter, it being hereby 'understood that the issue of which such bonds are to form a part, shall nut exceed in amount the sum of $20,000 per mile on the said 100 miles of railway, and shall extend over the whole railway. * . » j It is hereby further agreed between the parties th^t except as m this agreement stated, the the said two agreements hereinbefore referred to shall continue valid and have full torce and effect It is further agreed between the parties hereto, that the Government ot Canada shall undertake to request authority from Parliament at its next session to ratify and confirm this agreement and everything herein contained. , , • . This agreement is executed subject to and shall only operate upon such authority and ratification being obtained from Parliament as aforesaid. In witness whereof the Honourable John Henry Pope, Minister of Railways and Canals as aforesaid, has hereunto set his hand and caused the same to be sealed and countersigned by the Secretary of the Department of Railways and Canals, and the Company have also caused their corporate seal to be affixed thereto, and the President and Secretary of the said Company having also signed these presents the day and year first above written. Signed and sealed by the Minister and by the Secre- tary of the Department of Railways and Canals, in i the presence of (Sgd.) F.A.FISSIAULT.' " L. H. FILTEAU. Signed by the President V and Secretary of the Com- | pany and the corporate I seal" of the Company hav- I ing been affixed in the pre- V sence of ( (Sgd.) H. A. FI8SIAULT. j '• L. H. FILTEAU. / (Sgd.) (Sgd.) (Sgd.) (Sgd.) J. H. POPE, Minister of Railways and Canals. A. P. BRADLEY, Secretary, (Seal.) THEODORE ROBITAILLE, President. L. A. ROBITAILLE, Secretary. (Seal.) On this Before n sworn, residi Province of ( Appeared hereinafter ce And the 1 chief office an and represente thereof, and h( the Directors c directors duly duly certified c parties hereto i hereinafter call Now, there contracts and u respect comjilet to its terminus i said works and i said Company u The works h include all worl building, equippi Metapedia afores vations, embankr crib work, bridge crossings, perman wood-sheds, passe seven miles apart, sufliciont siding ac at each end of the and appliances, as rolling stock, also i and set forth in th with posts, insulate works, whether ter of said road or ra signed by the parti Exhibils EXHIBIT No. 171. On thi3 ninth day of the month of June in th. P«rti.., hereto ,M 1° S "i '"," " ''•""°'» «nne,«l and "t ™' ''">• »' Mw L.t, a . '^^^e works hereby undertakpn ^,r -^ 'Owi. wood-sheds, pMseniTPianrl r !"'"'''^'"ff' rails and track lavinl "o / . ' ?''^ '"'"'^ ''•^™ seven mile w su^h slr*^' * ''"*'°"^ ^^ '"^ «'"'-bIe si^e at £ aT! ","'^' """-tables, sufficient sidinTaecoiX^^^^^ ""^'^ ^« >"f--^ to those on he ^"'1;:^"'^ "'"'°"* at eacli end of the line also th?' '"^'"^ '^""^^ with accommodnH . f"''"^' ^''"^ and appliances, as he enl.n ' "''°T'^' ^'''^^^^'"ith and repair sLnH°''"^'"^^^"^'"«« rolling stock, a so Vocomof 1 '"'^ '^'^'^'" ^"'^'^^''« ^^^^ pZlo^tZ I "''^'^"'^'"^ *°«'« y eierred to as formmg part of these 964 Exhibits presents, said specifications being those provided by the Government of Canada, and forming part of the contract between the said Government and the Company. The said detailed specificaiicns for tho first twenty miles shall also apply to the next eighty miles of the line to Paspebiac as regards the manner of performing the work and the quality of the ntaterials used. The present contract has been made and eutere.l into by the said contractor for and in consideration of the sum of twenty thousand dollars per mile payable as follows: The sum of six thousand four hundred dollars per mile, to be paid to the said contractor, by a transfer to him of the subsidies payable to the Compmy by the Dominion Government, and also for and in consideration of the further sum of thirteen thousand six hundred dollars per mile, to be paid to him by the transfer and delivery to him of tir.st mortgage bonds of the said Railway Company, payable in twenty-five years, bearing interest at the rate of tive per centum per annum, said bonds forming a portion of a first isMie of lilteeii thousu^. dollars per mile, which said first i.sue shall be secured by a first lien and mortgage on the land grant of the company and on the railway of the company and all its appurtenance? and bclongintis. Also for and in consideration of the payment ana .ansfer of one-half interest in the fran- chises rights and titles [of the Company, the same to be delivered to the contractor upon the completion of the line to Paspebiac, by the assignment and delivery to the said con- tractor of paid up shares in the capital stock of the Company to an amount equal to the total number of shares then issued and held by the shareholders of the sai.l company, which said shares shall also be fully paid up. The total subscribed stock of the Company shall not exceed seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars at the time the said transfer of shares and payment is to be made to the contractor as above stipulated. Should the Legislature of Quebec authorize the payment of cash or Government bonds or other securities in lieu and stead of lands granted to the company, the contractor shall be paid and receive the said cash, bonds or other securities in lieu of an equivalent amount of the above mentioned bonds of the Railway Company, and the amount necessary to make up the said sum of thirteen thousand six hundred dollars per mile shall be paid by the com- pany in cash or in first mortgage bonds of the company, a« the company may select. The land grant bonds to be issued by the Company in conformity with the provisions of this contract shall be as nearly as possible of the same form and tenor and subject to the same general conditions as the land grant bonds issued by the Canadian Pacific Railroad Company. It is distinctly understood that though the said bonds appear to bear interest payable semi-annually, yet no interest shall accrue and be payable until after the comple- tion of the line to Paspebiac. During the construction of the first forty miles of the line, monthly estimates will be furnished by the engineer of the Company, and the contractor shall receive eighty-five per cent of said estimates in cash as soon as such amount of caah shall be received from the Government of Canada or Quebec. The whole amount of cash to be so paid on the first torty miles shall not exceed an average of twelve thousand doUare per mile on the whole distance, nor shall a i often mi lei The lial ^ a giiaiai contractor u or in cash, oi During ( at Paspebiac of the Comp soon as the si for the said bidance of bis guarantee un made in a pro the payninnt four hundred i the company remaining fift( iMst forty milt to the satisfact contract; but of acceptance ( the terms and i payable by the some or any of The Compa other Governme payable in bond The estim.it an average price work on each set The Compan fifteen days from Quebec respectivi become due. and will be authorizec every amount to ^ The Company books now in thei and generally all <'arrying out of thi p, . ' ■' •" V sendee, 'oonmtheSiLTf V """'^ "P'^" the completion of eTr-h . '"°"'^'-^ '"''^''^'tes for the «aid ton miles seetinn ,, '^'""^"^ "^ Canada and Quebec shill h ,. . balance oflns contmrn . ' '*" <^""t''u.,tor sh,.II receive n,,f • 1 '^ '"'^" '■<^''' -- guarantee until the oo ",.•.'''''' ''''''^""' 'c«-^ "ft ol'«ccepta„c„ of the ,Z ,! ' '^ ""■ '""' ™S'"«' «" lhr the works or in the construction thereof, and materials, articles and things whatsoever necessary for the due execution and completion of all and every the work required in the building and making of siiid railway, an.l in accordance with the plans and drawings already prepared and which may hereafter be prepared for the purpose of the work, and wi'l .-xecute and fully complete the respective portions of sueh works, and will begin the work of construction not later than fifteen days alter the date hereof, and complete the first forty miles of the line on or before the first day of July, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven, and deliver the said railway to said Company completed by the first day of July, eii;hteen hundred and eighty-eight (188S). The work to be con- structed of the best materials of their several kinds, and finished in the best and niost work- manlike manner, and in the manner required by and in strict conformity with this contract and specification annexed, and the plans and drawings now and hereinafter to be prepared and furnished by the contractor and approved by the engineer of the Company, and to be executed to the complete satisfaction of the said engineer. The engineer shall be the sole judge of the quality and quantity of the work, and his decision and measurement ^hall be final and conclusive between the Railway Company and the contractor. Upon the completion of all suid works, the contractor shall clear away all rubbish and unnecessary material. A competent foreman shall be kept on the ground by the contractor during all working hours, to receive the orders of the engineer, and should the person so appointed be deemed by the engineer incompetent, or conduct himself improperly, he may be discharged by the engineer and another shall at once be appointed in his place, such foreman shall be con- sidered as the lawhil representative of the contractor, and shall have lull power to carry out all requisitions and instructions of the i-aid engineer. In case of any material or other things, in the opinion of the engineer, not in accordance with the said several parts of this contract or not sufficiently sound or otherwise unsuitable for the respective works, be used for or brought to the intended work or any part thereof, or in case any work beiitipro- perly executed, the engineer may require the contractor to remove same and lo provide proper maf( thereupon i. if twenty -foi the ejigineei any such cat shall be incu in its discret the contract! If at an; employed, ci being perforn pletion of the Company sha contractor, ai expense of t: incurred then Whenever it hands (jf the c seven clear da President of tl contractor sha materials as th law, or other place the conti tract may Ibrtl empl6y additio Works at the cj may be incurrt to the percentaj not molest or h completing the whatsoever, an( purposes of the the purposes h neglect to pay a connected with i be ascertained, i It is undersl railway where nc tractor shall hav( such altera! i(ns lengthened, and that they are nc Government of C ot each section o each said section, The said Con first day of July, ( Exhibits ;f twenty-lour hou. «ha., eiaple 1 rrTquS: LTf T\' ^'^ '''' '^^^' ^ ^^^^''^'"'^^'^^y^'^^^^^^yjichin^t^n^X^roihT^^ not have been complied vith any «uch ca«e the contractor shall pay Ta^SmZv ^[1'"', ^7' '° '^ '^--'■^- -"^ hi shall be incurred in the removal otLch m„tedror ot " T i'""^^" '^"" ^*P--^« « in Its discretion, retain or deduct such darHges aL - T^' "^ ""^ ^'^"^P'^"^ '"^y. the contractor. *" ''^"^^Ses and expenses irom any amounts payable to -P%:J.^S^r;f:^rS:r^^;^.;-Heopiniono.theen,ineer,the^^^^ being performed, or the maLil. suppi eJ or "urnTl H " *'' ^'""•'^' '"^^'^''^^ °* ^he work Pletion 01- the said works within tS e stinSate 1 ''' "^"^ ^"'^ "^ ^" ^"""^^ the com- Company shall be at liberty to take ^ pa t o^^e'wl '? '°'°7''"'« -^th this contract, the con raetor and employ such means as th y la, se «. T' "',' °' '''^' '^'^'"'^ "'^ '"« expense ot the contractor, and the conuL ^ f, . *° '-'omplete the works at the -curred thereby; ortheCom;:Vll h^t^ef ''' ^" ^'^ -p'-l^ti. e Whenever It may becme necessary to take In vnlr "''""" *'''^"""''l^i« «0"tract. hands 01 the contractor or to annul the contuict L^p " °" ""^ ^^'''^''^ ^«'k out of the seven clear days' notice in writingoftheirimS^ Company shall give the contractor President of the Company, or by Ly o he " „ authn •' ".'t ""''''' ^*^'"^'-g'-d by the contractor shallthereupon give up (luieLd? ''"^.^O'l'^^d by the Company, and the niaterials as they then IxistV-ndUoul '1^0 ' 7"^""' °^ ^" ^^^^ works a,^' law, or other legal proceedings of a,? k nd wl Iv ""^''' "°''"'^ °'' ^^'^^^^^ -'• ^"it at place the contractor en ciemeurl The Com a' > n 1^' ''' T''""' ''^ '^'"^ "~'T to trac mayibrthwith,in,heir discretion, Ztd to let H "' '''''' "'""'''"^ ^''« '""- employ additional workmen, tools and mateSs 1 i "''"' "'' ^"^^ P"""^ thereof, or works at the expense of the contractor, 2 shall b lib, T' T' ''' "^'' ^^°'"P'^^« ^he may be .ncurred thereby, and the cunt acto/oits I'lts n " r'^'"''^ --^P'-'"^liti.re which to the percentage retained and to all monev w^ i i n? T "'^''""'^ ^'^'^" ^^''^^'it all right not niolest or hin.ler the men, agent o" oHice^^ u'^'r "^ ""' "" ^''^ ^^^'^'^••^' -^^' 'heyshll completing thM works as the Comnanv m.? , ^"^'"^any from entering upon and Whatsoever, and all ho.s.s, n.tZie;' Z^..i::Z:T''"^\ , '" "^^-'^'^ -d Uii;;' purposes of the works shall r.niain and'^be foii ,erSas tTI '' "'' ''' '="'^"^^''«'- ^'^ ''« the purposes hereinafter n.entioned. Should 1'"//™^''^^' ° '" ''"'"""■-^' ^°'' neglect to pay any sum due for the work Ze o^^ 'TT"''- *"' ""'" ^''"'^ ''^i'' reA-s. or connected with this contract, the Co niiy^^^^ "^"f^'' - ^-any other matter be ascertained, and charge the same J I^n?.n^ ^ ' '"'^^ '''""'^' ^'^ ^'^^ "« they can It is understood that the said Znnxcut ^ '"''"""' "^ '^'''' ««»tract. railway where not at present loc^l d ,. in ttr'' ^'^ ^^"•'^"" '' ''^'^'^^-^ -'<^ ''- of actor shall have the ri.ht to locate the I il; le m , "^7""'""^ ^"'^' '•"'"''•^''' 1'»>- "on- such altera.K ns in the present location a he „,fyseTh fT'l'T "^-'»-,and ,0 make engthened, and that such alterations are 13^;,^"^'^ *' ''"'' ''^ "°^ materially that they are not contrary to the terl Srcl^Ji "iT'"" i''" '^" ^°"^W. ^^ Government of Canada. The contractor shaldelirrtl r'''" ''"' ''""'^-^"J- '^"^' the fc "y ci^nt (1888), up to which date the contractor 968 Exhibit shall have the right of running trains over and upon said road for his own advantage ; but after the completion of the first forty miles of the line, the contractor shall he bound to run a train twice a week, in each direction, over the said forty miles. In the event of the 8ai4 forty miles not being completed on the said first day c,*'.luly, eighteen hundred and eighty- aeven, and in the event of the whole of said road not being completed on said first day of July, eighteen hundred and eighty-eight, the Com) any shall have the right of taking pos- session of said road and all its appurtenances, with all toolc, materiHls, horses, machinery and plant, and of completing said road and the works thereon and of running the same at the costs and charges of the contractor. The contractor shall be respotisibleforall damages or loss done or sustained inthecourse of the progress of the works, either to the works themselves, or to the material provided for the same, by chiinge of season, on by fire or fluod, or by robbery, theft or otherwise, all of which shall be at the risk of the contractor; and the contractor shall hold the Company harmless and indemnified from nil damages and trespass caused b\ the neglect or omission, of what- soever nature done or committed by the contractor or by any person in hi^ enifiloy or in the employ of any sub-contractor, to or upon any neighboring lands, orchards, gaidens, or other premises, in the course of the progress of the works. And the Company shall be entitled to cliarge to the contractor all amounts paid by the Company fiom or by reason of the said neglect, omission or act, and to deduct the same as payments on account of this contract. The contractor shall not in any way sell, transfer, let or sub- let this present contract with the Company to any person or persons without the approval of the Board, of Directors of the Company expressed by a resolution passed to that effect. Nothing contained in this agreement shall be considered or construed as being commi- natory. but shall be held to be absolute, without which these presents would not have been passed, nor as constituting or creating personal liability upon or by the President and Directors of the Company or any of them towards the said contractor. The contractor shall not permit, allow or encourage the sale of any spirituous liquors on or near th-? works. Any notice, which it may become necessary or desirable to be given by the Company to the contractor, under or touching these presents, shall be deemed to be well and suffi- ciently notified, or given, if the same be left at the contractor's office, or mailed in any post office to the contractor, registered and addressed to him at Montieal, or to his last known place of business. Done and passed, at the City of Quebec, in the Province of Quebec, on the day, month and year hereinabove firstly written, under the number four hundred and ninciy-nine, and after due reading the parties have signed with, and in presence of the said undersigned notary, and the seal of said Company is hereto attached. (Signed) THEODORE ROBITAILLE, President of the B.C.n. Co. ITViI L. a. ROBITAILLE, 1 -1^ > Secretani of B. C. R. Co. CHARLES N. ARMSTRONG, WM. B. S. REDDY, N. P. A true copy of the original hereof remaining of record in my office. BATE D] Extract i Railw twent " It is execute a ( draft ofagi Metapedia this Compa thereto. " It is f transfers of out the tern If^' ThisInd and eighty-ei contractor, " tractor, " of ti That in c hereinafter coi as follows : — That the i machinery and execution and i Railway, whicl 1. The said now partially c^ on said work to annexed. 2. The sub- miles, the whole with said Comp accordance with Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 172. BAIE BES OHALEUHS RAILWAY COMPANY IsECRETARV OFFICE, ®^^'^^T^RY AND TREASURER'S Extract of the minutes of ;. m. r , ^vv.mc, icth June, 1888. It 18 resolved that the President nf fV,- r, Metapodifto pr'I "?""""■ '''" ">« «<»>»>.ucto Tf ,kVT "'"' ""'""""n' of the Certified true exact, (Signed), L. J. RIOPEL, -^smtnnl-Secretary. WlTxNESSETH:- hereinafterconTaTneTtCsaidsnh^r?"^ *'"'^ "greements on the part of H,„ . -b-eontractor covenants and agrees lll^l^^ ^ ^^^ That the said sub-contractor will at hi. . machinery and other plant, materS ' rh. f''' P^°"'^« ^" «n^ every kind of Inh execution and completion of all nd ;:r t'^^V' "^^ ^'"'^°-- necrary for tit Su« «a..way. .h.ch railway said eontract^VLt^^r;:^:^ t h^il^l^^f^ '^^^^^^^ 9T0 Exhibits and specifications are herein referred to as furnishing the criterion by which said work la to be executed, and the same shall also be completed to the satisfaction of the Dominion Government Engineer. 3. The said work shall be completed by the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-nine. In Consideration of the foregoing undertaking on the part of said sub-contractor, the aaid contractor obligates himself to pay the said sub-contractor as follows : 1. For all expenditure necessary for the purchase of stock, rmls, steell bridges, right of way, and other necessary material, as tvell as engineering, the said contractor shall pay to the said sub-contractor, in addition to the actual costs, five per cent, on the total amount, together with the interest, which said Sub-contractor may be obliged to pay to the bank advancing the necessary funds. 2. For all labor required to complete the s;iid forty miles partially completed, the said 8ub-contrnctor shall be paid, in addition to the actual cost of the same, twelve and a half per cent. 8. For the twenty miles of new road in extension of said forty miles, the said contractor shall pay to said ."ub-contractor the prices as detailed in the schedule of prices hereunto annexed, and paraphed by said parties ne varietur. And foe securing the said payments to be made by said contractor to said sub-contrac- tor, the snid contractor hereby agrees to execute a notarial transfer of the subsidies granted by the Government of C^inada towards the construction of said railway and applicable to said sixty niilea of railway amounting to sixty-two thousand dollars upon the first forty miles, also the sum of one himdred and twenty-eight thousand dollars, applicable to the twenty miles of new road in extension of the forty miles, that is to say : .forty to sixty, and also the sum of seventy thousand dollars granted by the Quebec Government on said twenty miles of new road, and furnish to said sub-contractor all necessary power and authority to obtain said subsidies, which subsidies shall be paid in trust into some chartered bank to be named by the said sub-contractor, and paid out to him as the work progresses and as the same shall have been earned from the Government, and upon the completion of said work and of this contract., whatever balance may remain of said subsidies, alter paying said sub- contractor in full, shall be paid over to said Company. The .said Contractor further agrees that said Company will in all thing.'* ratify and confirm these presents, and obligate themselves jointly and severally with said contractor for the payment to said sub-contractor of all sums of money to which he may become entitled in virtue of this contract and of the fulfilment of the same on his part. The Railway now partially completed, with all rolling stock thereon, as well as that portion from said forty to sixty miles to be built, with all appurtenances pertaining thereto, shall remain in the possession and under the control of said sub-contractor as additional security, until the final payment of all sums of money to which he may be entitled under this agreement. The Cc execution ol This Ag conditions ai 1. The c extending th ^. The Bf and in al] thii with said con in virtue of tl 3. The su the manner al Thkse Th this date, othe In Witnes City of Montre Signed, sealed Signe I, the und( Company, herel ment, and oblig, payment, to said virtue of said coi Quebec, 14th Schedule of Charles Newhous( Clearin Close ci Grubbii Fencing Gates ei Earth e; Solid ro< Loose rt Earth ex Hardpar Earth ex Exhibits _^ 971 -i. The said Baie des Chaleurs R^ilw«v n ^ ^f January, 1889. Siened, sealed .„j jeli-ered i„ (hJ ./r"""' '^'^«'». C. N. ARMSTRONG. ' H. MACFAKLA.NE Q"ebec, 14th June, 1888. (^^gried), THEODORE ROBITAILLE. Clearing per acre Close cutting per acre.*'.".'.'.*.".''.'.'." * 20 00 Grubbing per acre 40 00 Fencing per rod "'".'" 100 00 Gates each 90 Earth excavation on sectin'n (n\"^Z""u'- 2 00 Solid rock e„«v..,„„ ^r cl'ic ',S ""^ ■™"' « ^'^ I-oose rock excavation " 125 Earth excavation on section (J) p^r cub"i";"";a"r"."] ° ^" Hardpan or cemented material « ^ 24 Jiarth excavation in foundations " ^ ^0 50 972 Exhibits Cross logging per sq. yard Timber in coffer dams per thousand feot board measure.... Rip rap per cubic yard Stone drains '* Masonry 1st cla«s " " 2nd class " 3rd class dry " Paving " Crib work tilled " Cedar timber in culverts, cattle guards, per thousand feet board meanure Pine shingles in work per thousand leet board measure Timber in trestles " " Timber in foundations " " Roud crossings and sign-boardn each Farm crossings, each Ties, each Tracklaying per mile Ballasting per cubic yard Station building do Day's work at cost plus 12 J per cent. Iron in work per pound Sub-contractor to be allowed five per cent, on total cost of all rails switches and iron bridges, also on cost of right of way and engineering. The contractor to furnish all the necessary rolling stock free of charge 30 80 00 1 50 2 00 15 00 9 00 8 (10 H 00 2 10 20 00 30 00 :v 00 35 00 20 00 i2 00 18 225 00 25 1,200 00 800 00 05 and connections, (Signed)- « C. N. ARMSTRONG, H. MACFARLANE. The following is the list of rolling stock required for the first sixty miles of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway : — 2 Engines. 1 First class passenger car. 1 Second class " 1 Baggage and postal car. 10 Box cars. 10 Flat cars. 1 Iron i)low. 1 Flanger. This is the Schedule of rolling stock referred to in the agreement hereto attached. (Signed) THEODORE ROBITAILLE, President of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company (Signed) C. N. ARMSTRONG, H. MACFARLANE. Amount Baie des Cha 1887. 17th M, 1888. Ist Jam " " 11 1888. 1st Juh " " II* 1889. 19th Oci 1890. 7th Jam 1886 Sept. 2I(.t P 2()th Nov. .SOth 1887 July 11 6th 20th Aug. 17th Dec. 29th 1889 Dec. 1st March Ist it tt tt (t U Aug. 11 5th Oct. 24th Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 173. 1887. 17th May ' ~~ ~ 1888. m January I p.. , ^ U_J«o.n(X) 00 " " " ^ EstinmtoM to date « 7q,.„ l^'^ynientstodate ' * 7.S7,89:i 76 1888. 1-,. .T...., -_ _406,H0<.0<) 97a Ui the 1888. IstJulv ., ,. , ^'*^'"'^"l«'odate...".*.".'.",*.."";;'""' 1889. 19th October -c .• 1890. 7th Jania y':::;:"- l±T''' '»*'ate " " .< ^ '^•J 8 Engineer, ft] Mr, .>.;-'• I ^''^'•'^ materials. li'l^S- P'ynKntstodate * 770,723 69 _ 4^(»,8()o (K) «1,260,635 52 945,274 9,3 EXHIBIT No. 174. ot^Sr.^.^^' U"-k-( 60-; 7(M 8(M 90-1 Caacapedia B Speciai to pa complete acres @ 3, acre Total { The seconc the lands giant first 20 miles ai The Federa Intercolonial, c( transferred to t the 20 miles. In (uldition, Owing to th( paid only on con: per mile on thes, Jast^ 30 miles (70 making the suKsi build the last 30 : The Quebec s converted into ca section of the lint Subsequently, the 180j was applied f mile, and the defc The special gr version Act. realiz of 1280,000 if ever Exhibiln, EXHIBIT No. 179. 0-20 20-30 30-40 40-60 50-60 ; 60-70 70-80 80-9,000 70,000 70,000 70,000 70,000 50,000 * 020,000 280,000 * !«iO,0(K) Tiie Quebec subsidy was a vote of 10 or^ The special grant of 800,000 acres of I«, , ^00 were apphed to mile« 100 to 180. version Act. realized $-'80 om in f ^"'^' ^o^^erted according to thp f of 1280.000 if ever paid "''"" " ^^-"^ --"^^ ^^ cts. per acTe'wouWf:^^^^^^^^^^^ "^^ 976 Exhibits The Acts referring to the gi anting of these subsidies are :— Federal, 46 Vict., chap. 25 47 " " 8 49 " "17 Local, 45 Vict., chap. 23 49-50 " " 76 51-52 " " 91 54 " " 8S EXHIBIT No. 188. EXHIBIT No. 189. UNION BANK OF CANADA. UNION BANK OF CANADA. Quebec, 2nd March, 1891. Quebec, 2nd March, 1891. Credit Ernest Pacaud with one thousand dollars. Credit Ernest Pacaud Dollars. X $ 1 = X $ 1 = X 2 = ■ t 2 = X 4 = X 4 == i X 5 = S3 520 X 5 = CO 2,600 X 10 = X 10 = X 20 = X 20 = X 50 = X 50 = X 100 = 4 X 100 = 400 Gold 1,000 Gold Silver Cents • Silver Cents Cheques Cheques 1 Union Bank of Canada, March 2nd, 1891. Paid Quebec. t 3,000 i m UNION Credit Ernest Union Bank of Ca oth March 189 Quebec. Depositor, (Signed), Ebnest Pacaud, Depositor. 69 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 190 U^ION BANK OF CANADA. Quebec, 5th March 189] Credit Ernest Pacaud DolJars.f''''^'*^«''«STPACAUD, EXHIBIT No. 191 UNION BANK OP CANADA Quebec, 9th March 189i. DolJars. Union Bank of Canada Paid 5th March 1891 Quebec. Union Bank of Canada Paid yth March 1891 Quebec. 1,000 J>epoiUi or. 62 978 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 192. UNION BANK OF CANADA. Quebec, I2th March 1891. Credit E. Pacaud. Dollars. X $ 1 = ■ 1 X X 2 = 4 = 1 X 5 = o * (N Q X 10 = S> S ..-1 X 20 = 1 X X 50 = 100 = Gold ... Silver... Cheques \ Union Bank of Canada 12th May 1891, Paid. ' Quebec. Est. $4,865.20. 4000 Depositor, Mr. Ernest Pacadd, Exhibits liXHIBir No. 196. 'r'--'"""l>eM,r.MnUB,„,.0..,,^ -A-ugust September 28 30 Balance... II Deposit... ..v.". - 221 " 1(1 riu I 2s ^'J^^^ue \ Balance ^^V: "''•■'-'••■■■'^^^^^^ %^^ J.OOO 00 fi9 '7A September Balance 62 74 ?4,062 74 162 74 2,000 00 2,000 00 €3,667 EXHIBIT 197 dolIarX^JS"''''^^'^''"'^'^^^-'"^^. Savin, Quebec, 28th Sept. 1891. gH Department, pay to bearer one thousand (Signed) ^"f ^fEHCHANTS Bank of Canada, Quebec. Accepted 28th April 1891 ERNEST PACAUD. The Merchant Bank of Canada, Quebec. Sept. 28th 1891 9S0 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 198. THE MERCHANTS BAKK OF CANADA. E] Savings Departmunt. Quebec, 22nd July 1891. Credit Ernest Pacaud. Occupation. Residence. Amount $2,000 Quebtc. dollars. Gold, Silver Total...* Credit Ernes' Occupation. Residence, Amount, 63;667. Cheques, Gold, Silver, (Signed) E. Pacaud. ¥fi(?*fi*«s. Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 198. MONTREAL BANK. Credit Ernest Pacaud. ^"""^ "^"-'^ ^•'^•"• Occupation, Kcsidence, Amount, 63/667. No. 199. THK MERCHANTS BiXK" CANADA. ■ OP Credi t Ernest Pacaud. 63/667. X 1 = X 2 =. fx 4 = X 5 = X 10 = X 20 = X 50 = 20 X 100 = 2000 00 E, Pacaud. E. Pacaud. 982 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 200 Exhibit No. 2G0— {Suite) EXHII LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE LA B SAVINGS BRANCH 4 SAVINGS BRANCH Folio Quebec, 3rd March 1891. Folio Quebec, Slst March 1891. Folio... 68; J X 1 = $ X 1 = " X 2 = " X 2 = " X X 4 = " X 4 = " X X 5- " X 5 ■=■ " X X 6 == " X 6= " X X 7 = " ' X 7 = " 1 1 X 10 = " X 10 = " 1 1- X 20 = " X 20- " 1 70 X 10 X 50 = " X 50 - " 1 20 X 100 = " X 100 = " 1 50= X 500 - " X 500 = " 1 IVotes... 100= Not.es 1,000 500= Cheques Cheques Cheques D Greenbacks. Greenbacks.. Gold n.r^iA Gold (ioia Silver Silver J. ( $ 500 1,000 Silver (Signed) E BNEST PACA UD. (Signed) E BNEST PaCA UD. • Signed '^''^^^»':&mm. ■Exhibits Exhibit No. 200-(a,^f„„,^) LA BANQUE DU PEOPLE. Exhibit No. 200-(Co;»/.-«„,rf) LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Savings Branch. Quebec, 16 April 189 \\ CniiQUKs QPEBEc, 20/4, 1891. 1,000 984 Exhibits Exhibit No. 200— {Continued 1 Exhibit No. 200— (Continued > 4 LA BANQUE D'' PEUPLE. LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Quebec, 18 1891. Quebec, t'6?5 1891. Cheques : 1500 CHfeQOES : 1000 687 683 Bank notes : B ' 'iK NOTES X 1 = X 1 = X 2 = X 2 = X 4 = X 4 = X 5 = X 5 = X 6 = X 6 = X 7 = X 7 = X 10 = X 10 = X 20 = X 20 = X 50 = X 50 = X 100 = X 100 = X 500 = X 500 = Gold, Gold, Silver, J.G. Silver, J.G. Greenbacks, Greenbacks, 1500 ■ ' $ 1000 Credit E. Pacaud Credit E. Pacaud with with Dollars Dollars- 100 100 Depositor Depositor Ex HI LA J Cheques ; Bank notes : X X X X X X X X X X X 5 6 7 10 20 50 100 500 Gold, Silver,"" Greenbacks, Credit E. Pacac With Depositor *^*«mmmmmmm9 m»j.,-r, ,. Exhibils Exhibit No. 200-(a««n«.rf) LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Qnebec, 1—6 Exhibit No. o,K,_(e.««„«e,/) LA BANQUE UV PEUPLE. 3891. Cheques : 600 Quebec, 10-6 iggi. Chequks : 682 Bank notes X X X X X X X X X X X 1 = 2 = 4 « 5 = 6 . 10 = 20 = 50 =. 100 = 500 =. G84 oOO Bank notes : X 1 « X 2 <= X 4 = X 5 = X 6 » X V = X 10 X 20 =■ X 50 X 100 =. X 500 = Depositor ^0" IDepositor ^"^ Dollars, 986 Exhibits Exhibit No. 200— ( Continued) Exhibit No. 200— {Continued) LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. LA BANQUE DU PEUPI E. Quebec, 25th June 1891. Quebec, 10th July, 1891, Cheques : Cheques : 1 500 00 1 500 00 684 684 Bank notes : Bank notes : X 1 = X 1 - X 2 - X 2 - X 4 = X 4 => X 5 = X 5 = X 6 = . . X 6 = X 7 =- X 7 =» X 10 = X B. du P. June 24, 91 Quebec. X 10 = X 20 - X 50 X 50 = X 100 = X 100 = .'> HI =3 • X 500 =. Gold, Gold, Silver, Silver, J.G. Greenbacks, Greenbacks, 1 500 00 f 500 00 Credit Ernest Paci With lud... W 1 Credit Ernest Pacaud.. With J), allars. Dollars, 100 100 Depositor T)pnoRit.nr .... ExHIi LA E Cheques ; Exhibits Exhibit No. 200-(C«,n With .$S,000 Dollars 100 Depositor.. Credit Ernest Pacaud With Exhibit No. 200— (ConWuwefi) EXHIBIT No. 204. LA BANQUE DU PKUPLE. LA BANQUE DU PEUPLE. Quebec, 29th September 1891. Quebec, 17th July 1891. Cheques : Cheques : 7,500 00 686 rcmis 1 3,000 00 5,000 00 Bank Notes : Bank Notes : X 1 - X 1 - X 2 = X 2 « X 4 = X 4 - X 5 = X 6- X 6 - X 6 - ! X 7 - X 7 = " X 10 = s X 20 = B. du P. ep. 29 1891 Quebec. X 10 - _ X 20 =- X 50 - X 50 =. X 100 =. X 100 =. X 500 «» 1 00 ! 1 X 500 = 1 1 Gold, Silver, Greenbacks, Gold, Silver, Greenbacks, 1 3,000 1 2,500 00 ,.12,500 Doll.ars, 100 #•5,000 7368 _, Propert Union Bank Union Bank Paid, Ma3 Depositor., »o,000 7363 Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 206. QuEMc, 15th April 1891. TTv, ^™P'^rty of the Union Bank op Canada. ^""VJZ^ OF Canada i'aid, May 9 1891. One month after datn f„. ,. i (S'^ed) Ernest P.^ud. tiefF.r:^:i^r'' ^-«'-'Ch«. J.a.>gelier, C. A. P. Pe„e. il wo Exhibits EXHIBIT No. 207. PRIVATE ACCOUNT Names, No. Amount. Names. No. Amount. Names. No. Amount. Sirois 86-2 mi.ooo 00 88-51 $30 00 88-95 $75 OC Barthe 4 20 00 52 133 00 96 25 00 5 50 00 53 43 22 98 19 47 Pennde .... 6 315 OC 54 39 56 100 50 25 Charleson . 7 75 00 55 200 00 101 50 00 Barthe 8 50 00 56 50 00 Irvine 102 100 00 : 12 25 00 57 15 00 103 16 86 Picard 20 100 00 58 25 00 104 25 00 88-2 500 00 59 15 00 105 15 00 4 100 00 60 28 78 106 208 89 9 40 00 61 9 45 107 15 00 Irvine 11 150 00 61a 50 00 House 108 200 00 12 115 00 62 25 00 109 18 00 13 20 00 63 10 00 110 1 80 1 14 50 00 64 10 00 112 100 00 15 10 00 Turgeon ... 65 152 54 113 10 00 18 45 54 66 3 50 114 75 00 20 25 00 67 50 00 116 15 00 i 21 12 50 68 22 50 117 11 25 j 23 22 50 69 29 15 117a 25 00 24 14 25 Mailloux .. 70 50 00 118 25 00 25 100 00 71 40 00 119 24 27 Sirois! 26 7.000 00 Tureeon... 72 6 90 121 100 00 27 15 40 73 50 00 122 23 00 28 30 00 74 18 48 123 10 00 29 51 12 75 25 00 Penn6e 124 212 50 80 100 00 76 50 00 125 30 00 30a 200 00 77 50 00 126 50 00 81 25 35 78 37 95 127 285 36 1. 83 180 00 79 20 00 128 10 00 : 84 50 00 80 10 00 129 5 00 85 10 00 81 27 50 130 154 04 86 425 00 82 37 99 131 21 71 38 15 35 83 25 00 132 100 00 39 550 00 Irvine 84 500 00 Parmalee.. 133 500 00 Sirois....^. 40 43 92 86 150 00 134 15 00 42 300 00 87 37 00 135 118 25 Lemieux... 43 100 00 83 59 00 136 100 00 44 100 00 89 150 00 House 137 300 00 1 46 58 63 90 23 22 138 10 00 47 30 00 91 26 00 Dr Verge... 139 70 00 48 30 00 92 10 00 140 26 66 ' 49 35 45 93 20 00 141 11 17 — 50 30 00 94 20 00 142 100 00 Nam es. House I ] Duga« ] House I ] Date. May June July 9 I Dem( 9 Jos. } 14 M. D 18 C. A. 18 R. Ri] 4 I Desch 3 I C. A. ( 3 B. Let I 8 Aug. ': 3 0. Des 13 Ant. T ^"S:- 11 L. J. P: May 29 J",'y .2 I J. A. T 111 j Godrea t;''^., Exhibits PRIVATE ^CGOVm.-Continuea. 143 I '** ' 145 146 147 148 149 151 152 152a) 153 154 155 House 157 g"ga« 158 ^o»8e I ]59 20 00 20 00 12 50 5 00 50 00 45 00 30 00 10 00 40 00 2 54 202 54 5 75 400 00 5 50 1,000 00 I 1,136 55 239 57 1,500 00 1,000 00 50 00 500 00 1,000 00 210 00 280 00 100 00 300 00 157 56 17 03 500 00 100 00 100 00 102 20 (oublid.) POLITICAL EXPENDITURE. Demers & Fr^re Jos. Martin M. Desjardins...'.. C. A. P. Pelletier R. Rinl'ret 4 I DeschSnes. 3 I C. A. Geoflfrion., B. Letellier Aug. Tessier....'.'.'^ O. Desmarais Ant. Taschereau. L. J. Pinault J. A. Tessier.. Godreau et al. 88-7 88-8 88-19 88-32 88-37 88-45 88-85 88-97 88-99 88-111 88-115 88-150 86-10 11,000 00 25 00 100 00 1,000 00 50 00 30 00 500 00 20 00 25 00 230 00 25 00 30 00 1,000 00 Election services. I KSiar^'°" °^ «^-'«-l lists. Revision of lists, Quebec- West. Election expenses ™°"''^'- Revision of lists, Beauce. 992 Exhibits CHS. LANGELIER. Dater May July June July (I Aug. No. Amount. 8 88-5a $918 23 9 88-6 200 00 12 88-16a 500 00 26 88-41 17 60 22 88-120 1,6(«» 00 a 86-15 555 40 11 89-4 3,000 00 21 S9-8 500 00 21 89-8 1,500 00 10 89-14 500 00 Paid to Frs. Parent. Deposit in Savings Branch Union Bank. Fortre«« Hotel. J. B. Morin. Paid note. Deposit to credit of C. Langelier. " Banque du Peuple. Handed to Mr. Chs. Langelier. Deposit with Chs. Langelier. A. CARRIER 88-5 May 8th Note paid $ 400 00 88-22 " 15th Debt to Desbarats 150 00 86-13 " 29th Note 400 00 $950 00 F. G. M. DESCHENES. 88-17 May 13th Note paid t 150 00 McGREEVY MATTER. 88-10 May 11th Tarte's note IIOOO 00 86-16 " 12th " " 400 00 86-11. " 28rd Paid to Geofifrion 500 00 $1900 00 ARMSTRONG. 86-18 June 16th Draft $1000 00 89-8 July 2l8t " 1000 00 $2000 00 ■No. Date. 88-2. May 88-25. '• ■ »>i-3. Note Chs., 68 Bzhibits , PBOMISSORY NOTES. No. I Date, j When I When , , ,, due. I paid. I Amount. II Promisser. I Endo«or. May.. «5,000 00 E. Pacaud... i <'1«. Lan^elier. L M^-A.P.Pelletier S6-1 15 April 18 May.. 16 May.. 5 000 OOP p f ?!ft^- I (ai:^S^-,,,|0riginal„ote. ■ ''"'^ '^'"' h ^"'^- 3.^ OoL Pacaud /Stf^- | - ^;A-P.PeIletier I I I Cha. Langelier. «^ lOMa... 13 J..,. L ,„,^. ^_^ J ^^^^^^ r M^^e. ■ L9;A.P.Peiietier I ons. Langelier. | 6,000 OOJI I I »ewal of the note of the 2nd Murch. VALLIERE. -uux-. '/ 500 00 s 500 00 Mo»T„oK™ov...ono., '^^ 68 The colum printed at full The colun printed at lengi The explan Sfi—Statem S7 — Accoui 88 — Statera( 89— Statem< 90 — StateoK 91— Moneys By the systt the particular ac example .- Exhib LIST OF EXHIBITS EXPMKATOEy HOTK. The column headprf " P,:„f j PrinW .t Mi ,,„X "' '^'" '°<««"« «.. P.80 « whf >, ,v M-Moneys on b.oT ° Msrchantt B.nt. il No. By .vho Gustav Clerk tive V ^0/'^"'»Coua. ='.rA-ata-- °""vo23S^°^'''.«nK the Royal Commission P^"'"*" 998 List of Exhibits No. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 LIST OF EXHIBITS Produced by. Date when produ- ced. Date of document. (Printed at patte. Cited at page. SUBJECT. Gustave Grenier, Clerk of Exeou- tire Council. It Ernest Gaffaon Sec. Dept. P. W Hon. P. Garneau. 14th Oc. 14th " 14th " 14tb " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 16th " 9th July, '91 9th " 9th " 17thApril'91 20thAprll'91 24th 24th " 28th 23rd 23rdSept.'91 24thApril'91 24th '890 891 892 893 139 1 T 179 181 181 184 185 188 189 68 279 68 68 68 271 273 776 757 781 561 602 Recommendation for money war- rants $100,000. Do for $534.25. Do for $75,000.00. Do for $400.68. Letter from Mr. Thom to the Hon. P. Garneau on which the Order in Council is baspd(already contained in exhibit number 1.) Letter from Hon. E. Robidoux, per Hon. C. Langelier, to Hon. P. (iarneau, opinion as Attorney Ge- neral, on Mr. Thorn's proposition. Letter from Mr. Cannon Assistant Attorney General containing his opinion on the agreements made with the Baie des Chaleurs Rail- way Company in virtue of Order in Council No. 237. Letter from Hon. F. Langelier to Mr. Cannon approving his opinion on the Baie det Chaleurs matter. Report of the Hon. Attorney General Hon.J.E. Robidouxonthe Orderin Council No. 237. List of the shareholders of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company. Letter from J. 0. Langelier to the Hon. P. Garneau mentioning the delivery to him by Mr. Thom of the shareholders' list and bonds of the company for $500,000. Letter from Mr. Thom to Mr. Moreau asking for the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company's subsidies, and that such payment be made in a certain manner. Mr. Moreau' 8 reply to Mr. Thom that the payment would be made in the manner mentioned in the preced- ing letter. No. Pr 19 Hon. 20 I Rev. vierf 21 (Hon. P 22 23 24 B.Morei Hon. P. 26 |W. L. B. 26 27 28 29 30 |B.B. Web Bank. 31 List of Exhibits Produced by pro- daced. Date of Printed d cument. *' ' page, |Oited at page 19 Hon. P. Garneau. 16th Oo.|24th April'91 191 SUBJECT. 643 '" p.rl: ^- ''A''''^ " 30thJ.ov..J 201 21 Hon.P.Garneau. 17th "5th June J 211 23 B.Moreau, P.W.D. 17th ' 24 Hon. P. Garneau. 20th " 26 W.L.B.Pauvel. 20th " 3rd Dec. '90, 30 B.E. Webb, Union ' Bank. '^p'o»rn'?'^?-^'»"««Ji«''-tc>Hon '.a,^r;-dS"^g;.r;;^oVSi^/ 'Sr8tteSr'°^'''''P""'' 609 ^f^^T. \ Thorn to Mr Garneau 'Letter from the Hnn P n ^rnn°*"^'!- ""''" "fthe record 647 in con^ect.onwiththeOrderinStU'i was then returned and cancelled.) ^" nfo}"" °^ ""•* '■'^"'O'-s of New-Car- I ''^'« concerning the railway Petition of the electors of Paspebiac, Resolutienofthe electors of Perce. Resolution of the electors of I'Anaa au Griffon and Perce. Re^olutionofthe Hoard of Trade of '^as'kin'lTr^i'' ^«''^,'" ■"■■• «'*chin Council ""P''^'"^'''" Orders in Letter from Mr. Machin to Mr Wehh transmitting the Orders inCouncil I Cheques for $20,000 each in faror ^ aLaa''«elir'""^^'«"*^»'^^- Later from Mr. Webb to Mr. Val. oMhoT^'''""? ">« payment of one of the cheques for $20,000. ^^''t^f-^omMr Webb to Mr. Boua- qiiet concerning the Davmpnf «# another cheque For flofooT °' 1000 List of Exhibits 35 36 37 39 40 41 42 43 44 4S 46 47 48 LIST OF EXHIBITS No. Produced by Date will' 11 pro- duced Date of [Printed document, i * I page B. E. Webb. S. Moreau. H. T. Machin, as- sistant provincial treasurer. 20th Oc. 20th " 20th " 20tb '• 20th " 20th " 2uth " 20th " 20th •' 16th May ")! 15t.^ Oct. '91 15th 16th " 10 Aug. 1891 13th July '91 2l8tApril'91 28th " 28th " P. B. Dumoulin. Manager B. du Peuple. 20th '< 21st " 2l8t " 21st Oct. 28th " 5th Deo. '90 18th une'90 18th June '90 2lBt " 6th Aug. '91 238 239 893 268 897 145 269 898 898' 276 646 Cited at page. SUBJECT 234 668 Letter from Mr. Webb to Mr. J.O Lan- gelier notifyiLg him that he Lad received the letter of credit signed by Hon. Mr. Oarueau. 235 Statement of a count between the 258 Union Bank and Mr. J.O.Langelier 756 236 Statement of account between the Union Bank and Mr. Pacaud. 236 Statement of account between the 240 Union Bank. Savings branch and 756 Mr. Pacaud. Receipt given by Mr. Pacaud, to the Union Bank for his cheques. 257 Deposit slipni the Union Bank for 258 $2,690.00. 263, 597, Drafts of letters and reports with 666, 737 reference to the Order in Council No. 237. Drafts not agreed to. Draft of letter of credit addressed to the Union Bank. Letter authorizing the Union Bank of Canada to advance $100,000 to Mr. J C. Langelier to pay the cl ims against the Baie dee Oha- leurs company in virtue of the Order in Council No. 237. Letter authorizing the Banque Na- tionale to advance $75,000 to Mr. J. 0. Langelier to pay the claims against the Baie des Ohaleurs company in virtue of the Order in Council No. 237. Pamphlet-Budget speech by Hon. Mr. Shehyn provincial treasurer. Letter from Mr. Moreau to Mr. Ma- chin especting the $75,000 in favoi or the Baie des Cbaleurs comf. ly, not yet due, but to be placed in the estimates to be put before the House. 297 Statement of account between Mr. 306 Pacaud and the Banque du Peuple 337 from the 6th May to the 3rd of June. 298 Receipt given by Mr. Pacaud to the Banque du Peuple for certain cheques. 274 267 267 276 2 86 544 50 81 82 53a P- Geo. La Cashier Banque Na 534 it 53c 11 53rf II 53 J ti 84 II 56 65a *« B. T. Mach m. 57 58 89 80 51 S2 pist "U May 1891 83a P Geo LafrancoJ2i8t " L., , Cashier of the |28th Apr.'oi Banque Nfttionale ' B-W^O.rMa?"--;'- to Mr. "ijf Mr. Paoii„.i' •'^ '""'. ooncern- en!for«..dbv''^Va'Jh^'"'■«^«'0«0- pron.sed a deposit ofVSoT"" I Laogeller. '*""*' "'^ Mr. Ch.irles 302 53i 53e 53rf| 53« 64 55 66a ^« a T. Machin. 67 69 312 313 312 bo '^&ed "by 'j'*>|"l"e Rationale, n>.eaiou/payabie';:T"^''r'"- strongfor$3i,75o. ■^™- $21,0(10, (I P2nd "7th Feb. 1891 Approved '^th Feb. 1891 [22nd " l2„d Juij, ,9j I Approved 22ad " r^ '^"'y '»'j |22nd " 9th July '9i'| (312,638 00 $16,000. ^^2 |do i|ini.64. '^o $2,2-.0.00. «100,f 00.00. '^'^ *"'«d" of Order in Council Wn iioi ! ?«a^orm„fa„Order|;Pr°''"''«.'l 'or convening lanTLl •i^"".'""' money. ^ *°'' subsidies into Statement of pstim.. ' Tsli -''' 'est' r'-fh'eVa? .-l" fe:^^-S^-.000 in favor 1002 Lilt ofExhibitt LIST OF EXHIBITS. No. Produced by. Date when pro- duced. Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. SUBJECT. 60 H. T. Machln. 22d Oct. 9th July 1891 906 319 Money warrant for f 634.25, being the interest on the preceding amount. 61 II 22nd " 9th " 807 319 Mont\\ warrant for$7:),000 in favor of the'Bunque Naliouale. 62 II 22nd " 9th » 908 319 Money varrant for $400.68, interest on $ 1 5 000. 63 II 22nd " Ul May, 1891 909 319 Money warrant for $1,600 in favor of J. I.angelier to pay cjaima against Baix des Chaleurs R'y Co. 64 II 22nd " 9th " 910 319 Money warrant for $25,000 in favor of J. C. lianuelier to pay claims against Bale dteg Chaleurs R'y Co. 66 II 22nd " 3rd July, '91 911 319 Money warrant for $16,000 in favor oii. C. Langeiier, to pay claims against the Bale det' Ohaleurs Rail- way Company. 66 76 II 77 ^-or of pw. ''eVH?aS''-'J='K''edbyEr. 378 hter from H. Camera, cpacaud. '«5 pEnV'''"='°"'''-'bBan,ue 424 Mercier for S5 nnn f^^u"!' ^f'' 444 i one month tnH Pf^*'''^ *' IChequetopaynotobyE.Pacaud "Y'^r/Kf^raui'^^«^^^^^ 380 See 87-7. 381 Pacaud's cheque, personal. 381 I „ personal. 1004 List of Exhibits LIST OP EXHIBITS. No. Produced by Date when pro- duced. Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. SUBJECT. 86-4 B. Pacaud. 23rd Oc. 14th May '91 381 _ > Pacaud' s cheq ue personal. 86-5 (i 23rd " 14th " 381 430 381 " " personal. 86-6 II 23rd " 14 th " " - ' personal. 86-7 •1 23rd " 14th " 381 '' " personal. 86-8 II ■ 23rd " nth " 381 " '' personal. 86-9 (1 23rd " 14th " 381 " " personal. 86-10 II 23rd " I4th " 381 " " Deposit, Contestation Caron, Chicoutimi, $1000,00. 86-11 II 23rd " 14th " 381 " "re McGreevy, $500,00 paid Geoffrion Q. C. 86-12 II 23rd " 14th " 381 " " personal 86-13 II 23rd " 14th " f381 .430 2 notes of A. Carrier, and 1 cheque of Pacaud, 400,00. 86-14 u 22rd " 14th " 381 Pacaud cheque personal. 86-16 II 23rd " 14th " f381 .430 " " $555.40 to Hon. C. Langelierand Tarte. 86-16 II 23rd " 14th ' " 382 " " personal. «ft-17 II 23rd " 14th " 383 II II II * 86-18 II 23rd " 14th " 1 (383 439 .476 3 drafts of Armstrong, on E. Pacaud : $2,000.00, 1,000.00 and . $2,fi00. 00. Cheque $1,000 signed by Pacaud. 8ft-19 1. 23rd " 14th " 383 Pacaud's cheque, personal. 86-20 II 23rd " i4th " " " personal. 86-21 II 23rd " 14th " 383 " " toJ.A.Tessier, Re- vision electoral lists. Three- Ri- vers , $30. 86-22 II 23rd " Uth " 383 Pacaud's " personal. " " personal. 87 II 23rd " 15th " 917 379 ,485 Statem. of aco. with Hon H. Mercier. 87-1 ■ 1 -'.jrd " 8th Sept. '91 39 Account and cheque. 87-2 23rd '• 8th " 397 Cheque paid. No. Pro 87-3 E. Pact 87-4 II 87-6 II 87-6 « 87-7 II 87-8 II 87-9 If 87-10 II 87-11 II 87-12 II 87-13 i< 87-14 II 87-15 ii 87-16 II 87-17 II 87-18 II 87-19 It 88 88a »• Februar;?89Vnfe" tf m"'*"^ '« P. Lanjrelier /V , ""^'J.nMercier, Pf lletie^ind' ErneWr/' ^^''■^■ cheque. ''rnest Pacaud and [Pacaud cheque, to Philippe ValliAr« '"dPa- 1006 List of Exhibits LIST OF EXHIBITS. No. Produced by. 88-5a 88-6 88-7 88-8 E. Pacaad. 88-9 88-10 88-U II 88-12 II 88-13 II 88-14 II 88-15 II 88-16 II 88-16a II 88-n II 88-18 II 88-19 II 88-20 !■■ 88-21 II 88-22 II 88-23 l< 88-24 II No. 89-5 89-6 88^7 89-8 89-9 89ii-9aj 89-10 89-11 89^12 89-13 89-14 89-14a| 8&~15 89-Ifial 89-15c 89-16 89-17 89-18 90 Lttt of Exhibits Produced by Date of Printed j document. *' ' page. 1018 SUBJECT. 88-5 E. Pacaud. 89-6 8»-7 89-8 89-9 89a-9a 89-16 89-17 89-18 90 1.1 89-10 II 89-11 II 89-12 II 89-13 II 89-14 II 89-14a II 89-15 11 89-16P. 1500.00. ; srconal. personal. personal. Subscription of of the Hon. Mr. Du- "•mel to the Union Club and not repaid. personal. personal. personal. jStatement of the Merchants Bank. 1014 '■''< of Exhibits LIST OF RXHIBITS. No. 9l 92 93 94 96 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 Produced by Date when pro- duced. Date of document. 106 E;. Panaud. Hon. Mr. Mercier. Ernest Pacaud. J. J. McDonald, Uontractor. a3rd Oc. 23rd " 23rd " 23rd " 23rd " 23rd " 27th Oc. 27th " 27th " 28t' •' 27th " Hon. Mr. Mercier. 27th 1 it 2»th (f 28th fl 28th a 28th (( Uth^ep. '91 14thAug.'91 16lh " -5th " 22ndMar.'91 24th Oct '; 24th Oct. '91 30th Jane '91 IBthApr.vl IBth " 15th " i.7th lYthMar.'91 7th Feb. '91 15th Nov. '90 15th " Printed at page. 933 404 404 406 938. 93y. 420 Cited lat page. SUBJECT. 399 rACA. 535 939 •^ 536, 731, I 789 939 940 491 492 504 504 Statement No.ObyE. Pacaud. money remaininff in bund of the J 100, 000. Telegram from F. Langelier to Mr. Pacaud to appear at Ottawa. Telegram from Mr. Mercier to Mr. Pai'aud supporting the previous telegram. Summary of statement < of accounts. Original cheque of the Hon. Mr Mercier in favor of E. Pacaud for $5 000.00 on the Caisse d'Econo- mie N.-D. Oriffinal of the cheque to bearer $,;,500.00 endorsei^ -y E. Pacaud. Declaration aa to the ownership of I' ElecUur. Note signed by F). Pacaud, enjor.-od by Hon. Honor6 Mercier ami Chas. Langelier for $5,000.00. List ul (Iep08it3 and otii • disburse- ments in connection with the Fede- ral election contestations. r4P3 Statement of Ernest Pacaud's ac- 685 counts with the Union Bank from ,714 the 30th April to the 13lh A^'ust. 415, 530, 5.38, 681, 681, 686 416, 530, 537, 650. 680, 685 .161 489 f490 ^493 1620 494 494 492 Propositions made by Mr. Thorn in the syndicate's name. ResolutioBS concerning the subsidies to be granted to the Baie des Cha- leurs railv -y comppuy. Letter from Hon. George Irvine to Mr. Cameron com rirngthe trans- fer of the charter of the iiilway compan.s Letter of M. Oamerc) to Hon. Mr. Mercier on the same subject. Letter from Ali. Ma'-.Donald to Hon. Mr Mercier concerning the Baie des Cbaleurs railway company. Propositions for the completion of the road of the Baie des Chaleurs railway company by .f. J. MaoDo- nald to Hon. Mr. Mercier. No. 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 Ul ll/i 116 118 List of Exhibi, 1015 LIST OP EXHIBITS SUBJECT. AoknowIedKementof recpint h„ w A'erc.erofaJet,erft.omMrS!„nU'; better from Mr H p„._« letter of thH ixh u l '° t*"* 514 iLetter from the Hon w- d l- answer. 'miway and 516 '0H.r i,. Council Vo. 488 naming tract; ; :J*f« "gainst tlie con- J^';;^'^ft''«B»'ede3 Chaleu?» 516 (Order in Council .Vo ]fta n.™- , C- Langelier, .o p, f t^b^lafi^ agamst the contractors "^ 'Memorandum of Mr. Moreau pt plajnmg the balance of Is o'oo ^^ leVr':VaS;5'''^^-*-K Letter from Mr. Moreau to Mr Mer- cjer ^^concerning Mr. Arm^l^on^^f; 1016 List of Exhibit LIST OF EXHIBITS. No, 120 121 123 123 124 126 126 12T 128 139 Produced by Hon. M. Meroier.. A. M. Thorn. Sec. B. C. ft. 0. 130 «« 131 Date whcu pro- duoed. 29lb Oc 29th " 29th " 29th " 29th 29tb 29th 29th " 29th 29th 30th " 30th Date ot dooumtnt. 14tbJune'90 17th July'88 29th May '91 6th July "91 27th Apr. '91 18tb Mar. '91 12th May '91 26th Oct. '91 565 947 Printed at 14th May '91 14th May '91 29th June '91 29th Otted •t page. SUBJECT. sai 558 669 664 947 582 948 S22 629 630 670 682 Letter from Mr. Laflamme to th« Hon. Mr. Mercier concerning the cialms of Cooper, Fairman, Mac- Farlunc & Co. And Hon. Mr. Mer- cier'a answer. Extracts from addresses of the citi- zens of different inunicipalities of the county of Bonaventure con- cerning the railway. Letter from La Banc|ne de Paris and des Pnys-Bas crediting .Mr. Mercier with 26,499 francd and 80 centimes. Letter of the Bantjue de Paris et des Pays-Bas creditiuir Hon. Mr. Mer- cier with 26,000 francs. Telegram from Mr. Cooper to the Hon. P. Garneau authorizing Thorn to repreeent the syndicate. Letter from Mr. Riopel to Mr. Cooper re transfer of the charter of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com- pany. Letter from Mr. A. Thom to the Hon. Mr. Garneau notifying him of the election of the directors and offi- cers of the company. List of the shareholders of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com- pany. Letter from Hon. P. Qarneau to Mr. A. Thom acknowledging receipt of the letter of the 12th May 1891. Letter from the Hon. P. Oarnean transmitting copies of letters con- cerning certain dangerous parts of tlie railway. Letter from Mr. A. Thom to the Hon. P. Oarnrau asking that money be placed at Mr. J. C. Langelier's disposal to pay claims against the old company. .Judgment against MacFarlane,granu ing possession of the road to the company. No. 132 A.l 133 134a 1346 lUc lM < 1347 (, 134r 11 134« It lUt « 135 r, James Grepault, Louis ....| Dech^ne, G-. M ,. Desmarais, O Dion, Francois .". Duhamel, Hon. Georges". Dumoulin, P. B .. .<■■■• Fauvel, M. Leboutil'ler G-aboury, Augustin.... G-agnon, Ernest Garneau, Hon. Pierre!.. "" Grenier, Gustave u Q-uite, Jean Francois 66 Pages. 22 to 64 71 to 99 '705 to 713 "•* 628 to 629 100 to 110 786 "775 to 781 695 to 696 133 to 134 623 to 625 613 to 622 120 to 128 ^96 to 6J>7 '747 to 749 124 to 128 690 to 695 295 to 309 337 to 339 225 to 22T 330 to 336 139 to 142 143 to 192 209 to 216 — 222 to 225 815 to 816 19 to 21 68 805 135 to 188 I- i 1026 List oj witnesses Pages Labadie, P. Auguste 320 to 322 782 to 784 Lafrance, P. Q 309 to 315 u 322 to 328 .< »< \ * 786 to 788 Langelier, Hon. Chs "yU to 728 i. " " ;.., 731 to 741 Langelier, Hon. Fran9ois • 808 to 810 Langelier, J. C 629 to 672 .. " 805 to 808 Langevin, Edouard 131 to 132 Larivee, Eev. Cyprien HI to 119 Leduc, Denis 795 to 806 Legare, Pamphile 622 to 623 Lesage, Simeon 672 to 680 Light, A. L te? to 776 MacDonald, J.J 389 to 360 » 489 to 603 ti n ti 549 to 550 Machin, H. T 264 to 295 .< ic 318 to 320 Marcoux, L. C 550 to 551 « .576 to 679 Mercier, Hon. Honore 415 . .. .» .i 503 to 548 .. , 575 to 576 More, John C 743 to 744 Moreau, Edouard 193 to 198 i. .. 217 to 220 ,"*'""'.'/'/." 260 to 264 Murray, John V46 to 747 .. 813 to 814 Pacaud, Ernest 360 to 489 » " 767 .. ..„.'.......,*. 788 to 791 .. *1......""1."....,............ 794 to 795 Pelletier, Hon. C. A. P 761 to 766 .. .4 u u 791 to 792 Pope Riopel, Robido Ross, H Shaw ] Shehyn Smith ] Thivierf Thorn, I Turgeon Valliere Webb E. «« II «< « « 11 I'ist nf witnesses 1027 Pope Edwin Rjopel, L. J. ...."]' Robidoux, Hon. j'e' Ross, Hon. D. A.... Shaw Harold.... Siiehyn, Hon. Joseph omith P. ^ "■■ Thivier^e, Rev: Nap'oieon. ■i^om, Angus M Turgeon Adelard Valliere Philippe. Webb E. E. ■I * • ••• • Pages. •• •. 740 784 to 785 •••• 811 to 818 • .. 821 ..•• 792 ■ •• 750 to 760 - 744 to 745 ■••• 328 to 330 -745 to 746 ... 330 •• 199 to 209 •• 551 to 573 •• 579 to 613 •• 741 to 742 •• 792 to 739 • 686 to 690 • 699 to 704 • 816 to 817 . 70 227 to 260 680 to 686 728 to 731 :»'! ' 1: c. V. a; \ J J n 8 T N 7- ai of di an wi $U or( ofti bj- of I 71. Pac Mr. 99. pon lett« Bait Cha; DIGEST OF ' ^E EVIDENCE. 0. N. ARMSTAONG, Railway Contractor H" Railway Company, - hT' .,?""'' ^"""^'^'ion ^ith th 'vailwa\^ ConiDanv '^'^ tj; ••'^""oution with thp nlrl n«: j between the compan^and th^F T' 7'r^ ''^^^'^'^ --Pany 22 7) , •"*''"'" ^•''«Pecting certain parts ;1. ' -^ 97. Claim due by MacFarlal '- o"T' •'-''•''" ^'-^- ^'^« ^"■"'-« to Pa a i Paeaud respecting certain payme 'to t ' "r™"""™ ^'^-™ ^-^ -i^n- ^ Mr. Pacand said respecting ^he l"" ^to cZu ub"';^'" ^"^°"^' ^^- «^- ^^ba' 99. Interview between Mr. Thorn a tl .h Tt '" '^"^ ^""- ^r. Mercier, 86 98 pondenoe;Mr.Amyotpo,nts^a"hre:';„^^^^^ Officiai colet' letter reproduced i„ Order i„ Council (No 237 i!n r '■""«''^''"" "^ Mr. Thorn's Baie des Chaleurs Railway, 705 Con rln. h . ^' ^' ^''"'''''"^ ^be sections of the . ^o.^, lAij, tOo. Contract between IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 ^^ iia ^ ^ ill 2-2 ^^^ III! 1 fi 11^ L25 1 1.4 1116 = 1 ^s i^ ^ ____ A" _ 1 ouiiM^cipniL Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4S03 f\ :i>^ ^N tv «6 >. 1030 Digest of the evidence ARMSTRONG, C. N.— Continued. the witness and the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company produced (Exhibit 171), 705. Contract between the witness and Henry MacFarlane produced (Exhibit 172), 705. Statement of the amount of work and payments on these works produced (Exhibit 173), 705. Statement of payments made by the Federal Government on account of subsidies (Exhibit 174), 705. Statement of payments made by local government, 705. Statement of transfer of subsidies and jjayments made by the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company (Exhibit 176), 705. Statement comparing the cost of various sections on the railway (Exhibit 177), 705. Statement of payments made on each section by the two Governments (Exhibit 178), 706. Statement of subsidies granted by sections by the two governments (Exhibit 179), 706. Statutes concerning the grant of subsidies, 706. Conversation between Pacaud and the witness respecting the declaration mwde by Paciuid to Hon. Mr. Garneau affecting the instructions left by Hon. Mr. Mercier, 707. Difference between the price asked by the witness and that paid to him under his contract, 707. List of prices for work on the railway. (Exhibit 180), 707. Explanation of the two cheques of $1,000 each, given for the witness by Pacaud and mentioned in his account, 707, 708, 709, The witness never went to the Hon. Mr. Robidoux's house, 709, 710. Witness's claims agiiinst the company, 710, 711, 112. Mr. Leduc's certificates, 710. Certificates of Mr. Leduc and Mr. Light produced, (Exhibits 181a, 18lh, 181c, 181rf, 181e, 181/, 181^,) 710, 711. Mr. Light's certificates, 710, 711, 712, 713. Certificates signed by Mr. Light. (Exhibit 182,) 713. StHtement showing the amount of $354,360.59 due to the witness. (Exhibit 183), 713. ARMSTRONG, HEATON, Banker.— Negotiations with J. J. MacDonald. See MacDonald, 339 to 343, 350, 351 to 355, 497. Negotiations with Pacaud. See Pacaud, 360, 361,' 371. Interviews and negctial ions with Hon. Mr. Meicier. See Mercier, 505 527* 540,512. BEAUSOLEIL. CLfiOPHAS, M. F.-Diafts drawn by hitn on Mr. Pacaud for election con- testations, 628, 629. B£RirB£, REV. PHILIPPE.— Condition of the Baie des Chaleurs railway in 1889, 100, 101, 104, 105, 106. Petitions to Government, 101, 102, 103. Strikes en the railway] 107. His claims against the Company, 107, 108. BLOUIN, PAUL, Advocate.— Saw the Courrier of 27th April 1891, 786. CAMERON. HECTOR. M. P.— Negotiations with Heaton Armstrong. See MacDonald 339. 340, 341, 342, 343, 350, 353, 354, 355. Interviews with Pacaud and the Hon. H.' Mercier. See Pacaud, 360, 361, 487. Interview in London witii Pacaud, 377. ?Nego-* tiations and correspondence with Hon. H. Mercier, See Mercier, 505, 508, 540,542, 549. Negotiations with Thom. See Thorn, 552. CANNON, L. A. Assistant Attorney General— Did not see Pacaud respecting this matter, 776. Opinion iriven by him on the matter of the Baie des Chaleurs, 776, 778, 779* 781.^ Hon. C. L>mgelier toM him that the Hon. P. Garneau was very careful res- pecting this matter, 777. Opinion signed by him was dictated by Hon. F. Langelier, and the latter signed a letter corroborating it, 778, 779. Order in Council No. 237^ 779, 781. Statutes concerning subsidies to railways, 780. DiON, Oigeu o/lhe eculeace 1031 CAHBIEB, ACHUIE, UfP-p 7^"'"°""""'°'"'"°^"'™'"'''='=™= «|.' '" ^««^' ^^ -"1 in 1891 12. iiuHAMEL, Hon. GEORflPQ n. • ■ cm C„„ve„..i„„ Sr^CrSrj??'™ "■'""'■ « l.e".™ «r credit the witae., herd P.c,„d, hi er^Tn^hta" '".'," "?'"' ■-'"■• «»'■ '"When «»..' ■ "■ "°"°™"« ^'-■' '-" '0 'hi. "z: Mr.'«r.r';.!st DUMOMIDT, PIEBBE BElfJAHrTur », N*of«Of»v vStf „'^h tr^f^ -"■ P«"Ple ». Qnchec.- chequc of J. c. Langelier', on the IT,^ I '^■,^'°^l"> Presented to the „|t„„, -..u ^^.m. i...e'viewrthX r,f?'„x' "w' r* «->»""* 1082 Digest of the evidence DUMOULIN, PIERRE BENJAMIN-Contim.ed. the eth at May to t.he 3rd of June produced (Exhibit 47), 297. The proceeds of the note of $20,000 withdrawn from the Banque du Pcuple by cheques, 297. These cheques afterward withdrawn by Pacaud, £97. Pacaud's rec«>ipt for these cheques, 298. Notes withdrawn with the proceeds of note of $20,000 nrnnely Carritr, WOO, Jay. Canel, $150, Desch^nes, .*150 and a note of Tarte's Lndorsfsd by E. Pacaud, Hon. F. Langelier, 299, 804, 305, 309, 3«8. Note of Pacaud's for $r),(:00 that was to have been paid on of the proceeds of the note of $20,000, 299, 338. Request Sy the witness to the Hon, C. Langelier to deposit 150,000 at his bank out of the proceeds of the loan an.l promise ol Mr. Langelier to do so, 300, 302, 303, 308. Account of the Hon. Chas. Langelier at the Baniiue du Peuple, 301. Witness's letter of Mr. Bousquet (Exhibit 50), 301, 303. .304. Produces deposit slip of $3,000 by Pacaud in favor of Hon. C. Langelier, (Exhibit 51), .302. Deposit of $3,000 by H>i- Le«e.s from Ho.f-*^"^;;^';:^ ''"^^^^ ^^ ^'""- (E-S No 'lo'- CHn.-ot be found. 210, 2y. NocopTe keotof r- ^^''' ''''^^'^'•' ^'''''^^ *« Europe Mercer, o,,, Letter from Thorn TtheT, , *'V"^^"-'^ '^'^-^ to the Hon. £.' . the ...... .. C.. Ji..t -.;- -e -1^ ^ the .th Z^:^' GRENIER, GUSTAVE n.-t ,• r. Signing of mone;wa::';I.';;;'S:;:;:^7^r;f:-^l'-« (Exhihi., 1 ana 2), 19 '"'■U8tor'« oaths of office, 805. '' (Exhibits 5. G, 7, 8, 9), 08. Form of the Qmn, JEAN FBANgOIS, Merchant -r rr ^io in im, 130. • *'«'^hant.-Condit>on of the nuhvay in ms, and 1800, 135 XABADIE, PIERHE AUGUSTF .,.fi n ^theBanqnedu ^onpleL t S^ri^hiblt JIT^^^'^^ «-- ^^ ^-aeaud at the Ban,ue du Peuple. (Exhibits^S;%o i ,4) '7 ''l,'^'" ^^P"'^^' ^"P« '-I'acaud XAFHANCE, PliHRE GEORGP r^ . • " «•;. 324, ..20. Interview,.tith1irwebh t"'r f '^'""^'^•-^^"-- °^-«l''. "'^lO. Inlervu.wswi-.hHon.P.G,u.neau 310 if ^"t«fv.ew« with Mr. Machin, 310 Armstrong, 311. Cheques oi^?31.750 L(io Soo^tn ?' ^""«'^""^- '^''^"- -' detatll'^f rr'^"^'^'"^^ to Armstro„.1J>* ft:" "'•/'•-"''' ^'«"-» ^'3' J' details ot a balanoe of .^.,,86.' (Exhibit 4 "'■? - 't ''"''"""' "'^'^'^""t giving W of Hon. H. Mercior f.r $.3.00 3,' 787 p "? "'""^'^''""^ ^ ^'-^ i" Hononrable Messrs. F. Largoiior C r,, r ■''"'"'''' "^'te endorsed by the or * '0,000 signed by P. Vallt.; endot Tv ^ ""' f " ''• ^^"^^'^^'■' ''''' '•''■ ^ Bank signed by J. c. Lan.elier e ^ J^tr ' iT :''\^'"'"" '°'- '^-^-^^^ on the o the note for $20,000. 315 3'>' n . ' . 1 Employment of the proceeds ' P^'cand to the witness by Hon. H. Mercie; at his pi t ,^' 7,7' ' !' f " ^'°*^ ^^ «iOOO left with hy Paeand to witness tlie latter was noTll f '^' '^^ '''"^ "^ '''^ payments - the matter of the Ba,e des Sille ."^fo'S 1^ r"""' '"^ ^^'^^'-'^ ' - «-' Pacaud, 710, 722. Cheque of $3,000 dei.osked it J"*"";'*« --t'^tions of witness with the Banque dn Peuple and cheque ol J^W' lit r'p'^ '" '^' ''''^'' "^ ^'''"e^^ at 717, 718, 727. 732. Pacaud's notj eJoZA f „" "' ^'"'"'^ "" '^'' '^"o^nt, 716 an.l C. A. P. Pelietier, 717. W t 1"" ^ r l^''"" "' ^«^"^^- J' C Langelier' ' ^r the^Montmorene^-' electio!;^ t-ti? t^'^l'^' '^"'"'^ "^^ ^'-"^ Hon. H. Mercier, C. Langelier and CAP Pn.- '^' "°''« '"''"'•««^' ^y Report made by the witness L i nm^'sstn f"'T' ^^'"^ ^^ ^'^^•^"d, 717, 718 (Exhibits m, m, ISO), 718. ^CUZ:Z^. f ^ ^'^'^^- Chaleura Rail'way, angeiiei named commissioner to pay the claims 1084 Digest of th§ tv idmce LANGELIER, HON. CHS.— Continue--ntractors " d tionK (Exhibit 158), 661. U^ : ^l!S.s ,^a o:\tr ^^'^ °" — ' ^ $4^:4r t. n"'''"H°''-P-Ga.neaurenrri^^ ' '"*' ^'^ ^iies, (Exhibit «-.«.o46, 9fh December 18»0, (Exhibit iSlrfil^ n" "'"°""' ^^'^^e e^npJoyment of October 1891 (Exhibit 161 663 P.v^' ^'^yments on $28(M)00 to the 9th , ^'tness' pass book of hii' oufr^at theB""'' °v^ '""^'« (^^'^^^it iV.'^'a Cheque book (Exhibit 164), 663. i struct oL"^"' '"''''""^'^ (^^'''bit 163 663 he 0,?'""f; '''• ^«^- ''"y^ent o "t- 5 000 toT:?"^^ thepnyment of ^175,000 the Order in Council No »-?7 aaa J • , *° ^^""^''on^: 064, 605 666 Dr^rt ^f other than those of Annstiong, 672. Sin ^fTrr' ^^'^'"'^''^^ Company, b06 Telegram from Thom. ro nectn/Trw ,'^- ^''^i^omld (Exhibit 209) 214), 80.. Letter of witness to the mJdartloT. ^"''"''"^ "*' "'^''"^ (^-^il^it lANGEVIN, EDOUARD, Clerk of the Senate -Pr d . the Senate Committee, ,31. " '"' '^'"'^^'^ ^,^«^ P™^"-^ before lARKmE. KEV. CYPHIEN.-Condition of the railway before the f • r^ew company and in 1891. (Exhibit 26) ,n p ""'"°" "^ *^« (i^xhib.t 26), 111. Petitions to Governm ent, 112 to 119 I 1086 Digest of the evidence LEDTJC, DENIS, Civil Engineer— Was ArmstroiiR's engineer from May 18S6to June 1889^ and altet wards noted for MacFarlancand Armstrong, 795. Prepared the estimates of work, 790. Light revised the estimates of witness, 796. Estimates of work and certificates therefor, 797, 798, 799. Quantity and pi icts mentioned in ( Exhibit 180) supplied by Mr. Armstrong, 799. The estimates were pn pared on exhibit 180,800. Profits usuHlly made by the contractor on the sub-contractor, 801. Figures givon by MacDoniild, 803. Debentures of the company, 804. LflGARfl, PAMPHILE, Inspector of the Caisse d'Economie N.-D.— Produces deposit slip by Hon. Mr. Mercicr of »4,0()0 at ihe Caisse d'Economie 11th March, 1891. (Exhi- bit 137), 6-22. Arrangement made by Hon. Mr. Mercier with theCnisse d'Economie to overdraw his account, 622. Depfwit of Hon. Mr. Mercier made by a cheque on tile Jacques Carlier Bank, in Montn-al, 623. LESAGE SIMEON, Assi.!t ant-Commissioner of Public Works.— Letters of credit 672. Was not awaro of the information given to J. C. Langelicr, that $175,000.00 would be put lit his disjiosal to piiy Armstrong's claim 073,674. When the witness became aware of the payment that wiw to be made to Armstrong 673, 674, 679. Instruc- tions given to J. C. Liingelier by Hon. Mr. Giirneau to pay Armstrong's claim 674, 679. Conversation with Hon. P. (Jiirneau 674, 679. Negotiations between Thom, Armstrong and Hon. P. G;uneau 675. Cheques of $1,500, $15,000, and $25,000 to J. C. Lnngelier to pay claims, 675. Order in Council (No. 237,) 678, 678. Letter ot witness to Hon. P. Garneau of the 15th September 1891, respecting instructions fur the payment of Armstrong's claim 677. Order in Council (No. 238) 678. LETTERS AND TELEGRAMS DESTROYED OR LOST.— .S'pb Garneau 175, 210. Pacaud, 4.56,46.1 J. C. Langelier, 048. P. .pe, 784, 811. LIGHT ALEXANDER, L., Civil Engineer.— Knows the Baie des Chaleurs Railway and Armstrong 767. Was tho engineer of the company 763. Certificates given "by the witness for work done by Armstrong 768, 709, 771, 772, 773, 774. Value of the debentures of the Bnie des Chaleurs Railway Company, 709, 770. Condition of the railway and rolling stock in 1889 and when he gave certificates 770. 771. Estimates and certificates of work on the railway. (Exhibits 202a, 2026, 202c, 202rf, 203a, 2036, 203c, 203f/,) 772, 773, 774. LONERGAN, M. S., Solicitor of Baie des Chaleurs Company.— See Cooper, 615, 618, and Thom, 561, 563. 570, 572, 595, 598, 599, 6C0, 608. MacDONALD, JOHN J., Railway Contractor.— Negotiations with Heaton Armstrong, 339, ,S40, 341,342, 34.% 350, 351, 497. Interview between MacDonald and Cameron and Hon. H. Mercier, 342, 343. Negotiations with Pacaud, 343 to 348, 351. 352, 353, 356, 358, 502. Sum of *")0,000 put by the witness for Pacaud, 349, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499. Interviews with representatives of the old company, 346, 349, 3.')0. Negotia- tions with Thom, 340, 3'»8, 359, 360, 502. Interviews with Hon. H. Mercier, 347, 351, 3.53, 354, 3.55, 357, 495, .503, 549. Armstrong's claim, 347. Interviews with C. N. Armstrong, 356. Valuation of the rolling stock, 359. Produces statenient (Exhibit No. 101), 489. Railwiiy resolutions, 490, 493 Copy of railway resolutions produced (Exhibit No. 102), 490. Offer of the witness for the completion of the road, 490, 496, 497, 499, 500, 501. Debts of MacFarlane, 491. Produces letter of the MacDON^ U Pj (I (£ by to MACHIN, 'J'n to; res Ap of £ 269 290, beti Cm Trej 282, at h Duh intl whic 279, 279. the li Bessii ofal form comp the 81 moiie duces letter MARCOUX, ] Mr. M • Mr. M MERCIER, H d'Ecor Donali Heatoi and ac letter f • (Exhib Februa with M DigeH if the evidence 1037 MacDONALD, JOHN. J.-Conti„ued MACHIN HENRY TURNER, Assistant Provincial Tr.. JreHsu,e,a.ii,Um,«,L'G5. Letters of crd'S to 88 T "■""• '^ ''"'"^^"' to app.opnations voted by the Lrdslaturp V- r J^'ocedure with rofeieiice respecting Armstrong's claims an Od; In ''•''''''^^ ^vith Hon. ]■. Gar eau Approve, o,,he A.tofney 60^67 'cs 'i.'^r^'i!^-/^^') ^«6. 207, 2^^ «25,0 » and $15,000 to J. c. Lange ier ioltot \ t ' ^'^^ ^^""^•'^ ^"^'an « for o a, etter of credit (Exhibit N„n2^;r[.;i^^^ 2.3. Prodnc.a drafl ^W. Subsidies payable to the Baip ,!«. /■>, , t. . "^'^ "'^ credit Exhibit 43-441 290, 2,1, 292, 295. Eeport of til Deputv An"' """'n"'' ''''• '''' 271, 288 ogj' between the Hon. Messrs. aLne^u' Lt rS-^^"^^-^!' '''' 273. Inte v ew Duhamel and Armstrong, 276 28'J 284 ^7- iT ' ^"^""ry. Thorn, Hun Mr m the witnt.,8' office 277 \iJ I' . ' ^^ I^'edence of the Hon Mr luL. I -hich he declined to'emiit.>78 2;r T" ^" "''"^^^ '^ '■ «• I^' ge^e Tnd g;;. 280. 293. No provisi:r;,naw fn vir!uTo"™H t'T '°' ""-/--S 279 Consolidated Railway fund, 280 23 Z 2 ""^, ^ '*'"«' °* ''^edit can exist the ban of $10,000.00, .281. Railway .ubsi'dfesr 1" . ^^*"'' "' '«^ «"t'^orizing session of 1890, 294. Prodtic.s a fJrm of O^ resolutions adopted at f .oc^nf of a land subsidy to a rail,,!^; eo« ^J' '° T.'" ""^^orizing the con , :Son form of an Order .in Council aX^rT ^ ''"''' """'^^'^l^- ^'^cire! company (Exhibit No. 57), 318 Lht ^r!i^ ^ ^"'"" °' ^ ^^^^^^^ *« a railway the sum mentioned in the budget spech'trsthT'^K "''^' "« ^" --^ve . r J-- ;S;l - -^^ Cheque Of Hon. Heaton Arpistrong, 505, 527, 540 541 542 p! , ^"'",'""'^^'« «"d negotiations with and acknowledgment ot' receipt of th^ fetter Frh-^'i"'" °^^^'*''I^""-'d to witness etter from Cameron to witnL .5 li ie rmbef stj ^^d '''' '"^' "^^ ^''^-^» (Exhibits, 108, 109), 505, 507. Producer lettPr^V r '"''''' '"^ *^'« '«««r. February 1891, and an,werto this letTerTpxht?, ° „ ^'^'^^''^n *« witness 7th with Mess.. Lflamme and Cr;50?5SrS.iS' /J^J; '^.TJ:^-^^^^ 1038 Digexl of the evidence MERCIER, HON. HO.VOR^.— Continued. witness liJtli March 18'.)1, and luiswer to thin letter of the 13th March 1891, 510. Interview with I'acaud respecting the BaiedesChaleurs Kail way, 51 l.T) 12. Appoint- ment of Mr. Charles l.nngelier iih Conimiawioner, 5i;t, 515, 518. ClaimH agtiinst the (hi company, 513, 515, 518, 519, 520, 521. Subsidies to the Baie den Chaleura Railway, 513, 514, 515, old, 517, 524, 544, 545, 546. Pacaiul forbidden by the witness to act as internit'diary between the government Biid those who had buwiness with it, 513, 540. Produces petition of the old company and the government's answer E.\hibit 114), 514. Produces Order in Council No. 488 of the 5th October 1889, appointing J, C. Langelier, commissioner (Exhibit 115), 516. Produces Order in Council No. 108 of 1890 appointing J. C. Langelier to pay claims (Exhibit 116), 516. J. C. Langelier appointed commissioner, 516, 517, 518. Resolutions of the Legis- lative Assembly rea()ecting the payment of certain claims against the Bnie des Chaleurs Railway Company, 516. Statute concerning subsidies to the Baie df.s Chuleurs Railway, 53 Vic, eh. 101, 516, 544. Produces letter from Moreau of the 19th October 1891 explaining the expenditure of *8,0(M) (Exhibit 117), 517. Protluces Order in Council 459 f>f 1888 respecting the *8,0ii0 (Exhibit 118), 518. Drafts transmitted to him at Paris by Pacaud, 529, 580, 5.S5. Claims of C. N. Armstrong, 520, 521. Produces letter from Moreau to witness 28th C)ctober 1891, respecting the clainifi of Armstrong and Cooper Fairman and Co. (Exhibit 119), 52i). Produces letter fiom R. Laflamme to witness of the 14th June 1890 and answer to this letter (Exhibit 120) 527. Claims of Cooper Fairman and Co., 521. No instructions left by the witness respecting the settlement of the Baie des Chaleurs matter 522, 525. Telegram from Armstrong received at Paris by Mr. Drolet 522, 523. Produces extracts from the address of the citizens of Bonaventure (Exhibit 121), 522. Commu- nications received by him from the Hon. Messrs Garneau and C. Langelier res- pecting the settlement of the matter, 522, 523, 524. Extracts from his letter written in Paris 19th May 1891 to Hon. C. Langelier, 523. Resolutions of the Legislative Assembly respecting the Baie des Chaleurs Railway, 526. Blank signed notes left in the hands of Hon. C. A. P. Pelletier, 528, 529, 535, 536, 537, 547, 575. Produces notice of a draft on the Banque de Paris et des Pays Bas. (Exhibits 122, 123), 529, 530. Cheques of witness for $5,000 and $3,500 on the Caisse d'Economie N.-D., 530, 531, 538, 539. Interviews with Pacaud since his return from Europe, 531, 541, 542. Asked Pacaud for a confidential memorandum on this matter, 531, 541. Became aware of Pacaud's transactions with Armstrong only when he saw it in the newspapers, 532. When he became aware for the first time that Pacaud had paid considerable sums to Hon. C. Langelier, 5.33. Note of $4,000 given by him to Hon. C. Langelier to assist him in paying for his house, 533. Presence of Hon. C. Langelier at the Banque du Peuple when Pacaud asked his note to be discounted" for $20,000, 534. Note of $6,000 of Pacaud's endorsed by the witness and Hon. C. Langelier, 535. Objection of the witness to Armstrong, 543. Correspondence of Thom respecting the subsidy, 544, 545. Letter of credit, 546. Witness siys he had seen Hon. Mr. Jlobidoux since he is at St, Foye's, 575. Hon. Mr. Laurier not present when the notes were signed, 575. MORE, JOHN C— Manager of the Merchants Bank at Quebec, 734. Produces Pacaud's account at the saving's department of his bank (Exhibit 196), 743. Produces MORE. tfOBEA MURKA' n. OFFICIA re H ORDERS ; (E Th 23): 18t 18S apf ber Fel: 189 J.C PACAUD, JE betv witn with Mac C. N C.N. ofC. witne Inter syndi (Exni 367. I Mcssr $100,0 Don all 80th A telegrii with J digest of the evidence MORE, JOHN.-Co„ti„ued, ^"ca.Hi's cht.que for «1000 IV wi- With nc.;:;; ,i "ri;' '^r' ^f "'"'' >••«'' ^^ t r rit^-r' ^"■" '^ '^^^ MOHEAU. EDOU.JRD-Di '^''-'-"^on P,.,.,.a, ,,,;» ^--'•' ■" Payment l'«cti«g the lia>4 .Jos' ch!w.^!l^» ''r^''-~^''^'''«*''' t'>« record ofth. , of Public Works 1 ,- T "a''way Company whirl, 7 . '^ ''""unient.s res- re.i«tero.corro.pona:;:ri-\---(K^^^^^ produce many teJe^Jran.s 74G Hn ?"'^^*' ^'""'''«">-- ""K^- R-ccived an , ma„.,.,.on,.neeH.c Jttj:::^^."-"'- ^^"^ ^^'' ^3^:";;,":^^;: OFFICIAL C0RRE8P0NDENCP v Hon. I. Oau>cau'a leuer and J. C. LanJ:, \,,^ '^;;--^ the copy o, ORDERS IN COUNCIL ~x ,. "'' "' "'^- -^t'^ Apnl 18!>1, ,31,5. '>'^s,,/ian, *-• '^"oyelior, 721 7"s 7-,. „ ^'^''""'- -*''^. -''7, 274, "s.'i '^xa with M,cD;,„'i ■ :,■ iT""'™" «* A. Chariebff ;■,".;. ''™' »""."- Negotiations witness, ;5G0, 3G1 «(;.> with MacDonald' ;?.;.; ^ritSlrT'l,?'*'' ^^^ Charleb;i;' MacDonald .,n,i w "J ' ^' "^°'' '^71, 870 4,), ,,- > —• ^-t-Huuauons onil.| „nd Hon. H. Merci.r, a63 S(j- v '• f ' ^^^^^"tiations between C- X A.mstrun. -^ to ^77, 401. 402 V^^,,/::fl'^'^^ ami interviews I^th C N. Arn..stron,. to witness iOth Much 18 H /pV''-^' '''■ ^^-'^^^^b letter of Interview with H.! h r'^'"'"""^ ^'^^ -gotSi ^ u'" .^^'^^'ir. «^" ;^-ii.ea.eofca.i,ahVt.''30Mr4\rr?"^^'^^^^^ Exn,bu.5),.so7.IVoduces;elo,ra?sofcv?'t^^^^ M s. : c 77 '^V'^"-^"^'^ ^'tween the ^ttrcTr "';"^'^^- ^^^^^^^'^ ''^"■ gener to get Thorn's proposition accepted *a*J**i«yafe, 1040 Digest of the evidence PACAUD, ERNEST.— Continued. ;J73, VAi. Intervi. w with Hon. Mr. (tiirnea'i Kiid letter written by liini to the witness, 374, 43-J, 438. Letters of crt.'dit, 37.'), -Jl".' 410, 433, 434, 43r), 43(5. Interview with J. C. Langelier ami C. N. Armstrong and payment, ot o cheques of I2(),(KH) to the latter, 375, 370. Application.s made to.VVebl) and tliu Banque Nation.ilu with releronce to the letters ot credit, 375, 409, 410, 433, 431, 4*), 436. Dclwery of the 5 cheques lor $20,000 by C. N. Armstront; to \vitne.-*!i, 370. First cheque of 120,000, drawn upon the Union B.mk to be remitted to the BaiKpie du Peiiple the 0th May, 18»l, as collateral security of a note for the same amount, 370. Second cheque of »2U,000 drawn upon the Union Bank to bo remitted to the B.tnque >;alionale, 14th ALay, as collateral security of a note for the same amount, 370, 377, 410, 436. 3rd cheque tor *20,tH)0, the witness tries unsuccessfully to discount at the Bauque du Peuple at Montreal, th.n the amount is placed to his credit at the Union Bank and he hands it to Mr. Webb at maturity of the letter of credit in July, 370, 437, 450. 4lh che-iue for $20,000 remains at ilie Union Bank and is placed to the witness' credit, 370. 5th cheque for $2i),(tOO remams at the Union Bank and is placed to the witness' credit, 370. Discount of cheques and notes for $20,000 at the Union Bank, Banque du Peuple and Banque Nationale. 370, 436. Note of Pacaud's for $20,000 endorsed by P. Valli^re, discounted the 5th May, 1891, at the Banque du Peuple, 376. Produces note of $20,000 discounted at the Banciue du Peuple. (Exhibit 83), .377. Note of Pacaud's for $20.(KX) endorsed by P. ValliSre discounted the 5th May 1891, at the Banque du Peuple. Produces note of $20,000 discounted at the Banque du Peuple (Exhibit 83), 377. Note of Pacaud's for $20,000 endorsed by P. Vallitre discounted the 15ih May, 1891, at the Banque Nationale with the second cheque of $20,000 as collateral security, 377, 436. Produces note of $20,000 discounted at the Banque Nationale, (Exhibit 84), 377. Interview in London with Hector Cameron, 377, 378. Produces letter from Hector Cameron to witness writtei. at London, the 12ih Sept ,1891. (Exhibit 85),377. Employ- ment of $100,000378, et seq. 426, 415, 440, 470, 471, 474, 475,470,479, 480. Statements explaining the use of $100,000, 378, 485. Producing a statement showing the use made by the witness of different amounts drawn by him on the Banque Nationale anil his statement of account with the Bank (Exhibits 86, 86a), 378. Produces account between the witness and Hon. H. Mereier (Exhibit 87), 379. Draft of $5 000 on Paris in favor of Hon. Mereier, 379, 380, 423, 443, 456, 464, 405, 486. Cheques of Hon. Mr. Mereier fur $5,000 and $3,500 by the Caisse d'Economie N.-D. payable to the order of witne.ss 379, 380, 396, 414, 415, 422, 423, 456, 4*57, 458, 460, 461, 488. Notes for expenses of election contestations, 379, 412, 413, 422, 424, 425, 439! 440, 443, 474, 481. Explanations respecting the amounts paid to Hon. C. Lan- geli'er, 382, 413, 421, 429, 430, 431. Explanations respecting the Eledeur, 382, 413, 421 406 467. Prixiuces statement explaining his account with the Banque du Peuple and the account of the Bank (Exhibits 88-88a). 383. Produces statement explaining his account with the "Union Bank since the KHh of July aind statement of the Bank account (Exhibits 89-89a), 393. Produces statements of account with the Merchant's Bank since the nth July (Exhibit 90), 395. Account of witness with Hon. H. Mereier, 396, 897, 398, 899, 412, 410. Produces statement of money in hand (Exhibit 91) 399. Explains the deposit (if $20,000 at New York, 400, 466. Interview with Mr. Webb respecting the witners' cheques, 400. Use of cheque of $25,000, 401, 486. Denies having told Mr. Armstrong that he had to render an account to the Hon. H. Mereier, 401, 402. Memorandum shown by witness to Webb of the amounts he had to pay, 402, 433, 434. Told Mr. Webb that he had to pay a certain amount to Hon. C. Langelier, 402. Denies having com Digest of the evidence 1041 I^ACAUD, EKNEST.-Continued. iniinicated to Hnn n r i- H. Mercer to witn.s.s rea.l ul„i„i b • ^ZV^' ^^'\ ^°:'"* "^ P^.so.ial leu-r from ilnn' when the w.tneas a«ke,l for .lincount .t t'„ Hm ' '"'•\"°"-C- I^'tn^elier not pre J'l tions from Hon. Mr Morn; » "'"^ ''^ tho B,m,j,u, fji, p , "" prisent Destruction by witno.a of a I the'lot Lrs "^n "VT'°"^ ^'^''^'"""^ '" Si ^4 5' absence. -toG. Witness destroy/a le 1^ a n r" ° ^'"' ^^' ^'^'•' ^^^^''^'i"-' '■ -ni hi. n««8.on, he ha.l previously rea I „ 0"' 403" p" I' "'''^'^' "'^'^-^^ed by th Com estafons (Exhibit .9). 474. aJ^^'J^ Sn'^B t'-- ^ of elLtSm'c on-' 483. Produces notes left by Hon H m/ • ^''"'^ P'-'^'"Ced (Exhibit 100> t.er (Exhibit 205). 7«9. I'roduce^'.^'te J r/ " "'^^""<'^o- "• -a. Mercier. See account of the Union PELIETIER, Hon C A P-«pn , xr Mereie, J. c. Langeh^^^d thrwul":^"?'.'''"*^"^ ^"^--'^ hy Hon. Messrs POPE ~°"°"-"'-"^''"""^"^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ' ;;^--s:^s^r;:^^::^-^^^^^^^^ ..the to Hon Mr. Mercier had been shown to P.?. V" J^° '''^hlegrams from Pacaud witness's order without Pacaud's £Xf ^ -^"^ '^'^^'^^^'^ destroyed by the BIOPEL, L. J._AdvocatP_P.«^ , - -e .ep,« „s .rjcir -r i?ri -*-• ««^"'- 'o"--. ■KOBIDOOX. HOlf. ,05. EMEEY-am . '*'''" **'• "'•'■ of .he Balede. Ch.le„„ lut :"h w;:t1'"^ S"™''"'^' »'* 3042 Digest of the evidence ROBIDOUN, HON. JOS. EMERY.— Continued. the car^ 750. Interview at New-York between the witness Hon. C. Langelier and Thorn, 750. Was absent when the Order in Council was passed, 750. Telegram sent by him to the Hon. Mr. Garneau respecting the transaction, 741. Conversation with Hon. P. Garneau respecting the contract with the syndicate only as an admi- nistrative act, 751, 757. Opinion of witness asked by Hon. P. Garneau for Lieu- tenant-Governor, 752. Pacaud was at New-York with Thorn, 752. Pacaud wm pressing for the carrying out of the arrangement concluded by the Order m Council, 753. Letters of credit, 753, 756. Steps taken by the witnei-s to obtain discount ot_a note (.f Pacaud's at Montreal, 754, 755, 756. Hon. Mr. Mercier took no interest m the success ofThom's syndicate but WHS interested in the completion of the Baie des Chaleurs railway. Payment by Pacaud of the witness's subscription to the Union Club but not at his request; the amount was repaid to Pacaud by witness. 755. PacHud never paid any debts for witness, 75.'). Opinion given by the witness on the contract with the syndicate, 757. Nevir received one cent either directly or indirectly from Pacaud, 758. Opinion given by Cannon, Assistant Attorney General, 759. Had no doubts aa to the regularity of the transaction. 759. E08S, HON. DAVID A.-President of the Executive Council, 744. Interviews with Hon. P. Garneau and Thorn, 744. .Proposition of Thomas. 744. Order in Council No. 237, 744. Had nothing whatever to do with Pacaud, 745. SHAW, HAROLD. -Clerk in the Union Bank.— Produces book in which the customers of the Union Bank sign the receipts for their cheques, 329. SHEHYN HON JOSEPH.— Provincial Treasurer.— Absent when the Baie des Cha- leurs matter was settled, 745. Had nothing whatever to do either w;th Pacaud or Armstrong respecting the Baie des Chaleurs matter, 745. Letter of Mr.Laflamme respecting the proposition Cooper communicated to the witness by Hon. Mr. Mercier in the cai-s on the way to Nev^-York, 745. Had no report from the Treasurer (ad interim) on this transaction and was not informed of the letters ot credit, /46. SMITH, FREDERICK WILSON.-Clerk in the Union Bank.-Eeraittancc of the cheques by Pacaud to his secretary, 330. THIVIERGE REV, NAPOLEON.— Condition of the railway in 1889, 199, 205. Petition to the' Lieutenant Governor, 201, 202, 203. State of the road in September, 1891, 205. THOM ANGUS McINTYRE.— Secretarv-treasurer and director of the Baie des Chaleurs ' RMi.way Company .-Interviews with Macdonald,552,605,611. Interviews with Mac- donald and Cameron, 552. Claims of Cooper, Fairn.an and Co., 552. Orgamzation of the company, 552. Interview with Laflamme, Cooper and witness with the Hon Mr Mercier, 553. Subsidies of the Baie des Chaleurs railway, 553, 602, 603, 809 610. Claims of Armstrong, 553, 559, 560, 567, 579, 580,581, 585, 588, 593, 596, 6O4! 609. Interview with Pacaud and the Hon. Messrs Robidoux and Langelier, 554' 607. Interviews and negotiations with Armstrong, 554, 605. Interviews with Pacaud 554, 555, 556. Pacaud's relations with Armstrong, 554, 555, 567, 585, Interest of the firm in the railway, before the formation of the syndicate, 565. Interviews with Hon. P. Garneau, 555, 563, 587, 588. Proposition to the Govern- THOA { £ I S c b n 5! ri 5i R dr pr of coi pai 742 to! VALLIfiR] wit 687 witi witi off, befd Dun I^igest of the evidence 104Sr THOM, ANGUS McINTYRE.-Continued. ment 006, 5o7, of? fi'is -,qo t * Produce. te,egra:^;:^Jo:S-t?i:r:?';:/- ^^ ^T""^^' ^^'^ ^««- ^«^. ^"0 ees letter of Riopel to Cooper nlSu!' S^^^^^^ P odu: company, 559. MacF«rlane'«%,aimS 1 58i r Tv'' *'" ""^^'^^ "'• ^^o old rights of the old company 559. Lettei^ ,n t. ^^"'.^^'1°" of the translVr of the 563 570, 572. Order in Council (NSrse/fi^Tr'"" °^" ^'^'•- ^°»-gan, 561 to w.tne«. 27th April, 1891, respecting the le'tte.^'T '"°^ "^'^' «^'>- P" ^-^ "-u replaced by others, 562. Letters of ".^ Ht 56^ .6r''r^ ''• ^«"«r cancelled and con^pany, 563. 564, 609, 612, 013. Produc s lettt f ' f ' '''• »«^>-t"'e« of the resprctmgthe directors of the com^y EvhuT^Jf '° '^^ ^''"•P-G'^rneau! company, 565 shares and .harehoTu'^f "f iffo . ''V'''- ^"''^^""^ "^ the Intenuew at the Treasury Departmet betVetn th'T '''' '"'• ^■^'' '^^- 605. Webb, Armstrong and Duhamel, 56-. e ofTh i,^ ^J'V?'' ""' '''"'''' '''^'^'-' 669 Demand by the Ontario Bank and w tn ' - 1 f '^' °" letters of credit -bject, 569. Cheques for f 31,750, |24 0^0 * 6 ) 8 7r'° f "" "^^ ^'^™^^'^" °" *his' Hon. P. Garneau to witness, J8th Ma 89 nT , lit' *^-^'^^' ^^S- Letter of the witness to Hon. P. Garneau respecli'th^ ,^ . '"'' ^^"'"^'' ^-'9). 570. Letter of thzs letter. 57i. 572. A-n-strorgCSwUhT/ '^ "'''*' ^^'"P-^y -^d answer to tract of Armstrong with MacfLane Si 584 i^ r'^^'"^'' '^''' ^«0' 5«' • S'-b-con- Garneau informing him of tho judgmft g^vL:^ 1 ""''" ^*" ^'^'" «« ^« Hon. F. said jtulgment. (ExhibUs 130, 13]f ^2 Proil '^r^^ '° ^^'^ ^'^'"P^"^ '"^^ '^i^o the ohequei. (ExSts'si' i'.rs" ^^^^ ^""^-; ^^''^' ^'-S:e"i,'prd:; : by Armstrong, 585. VV.,rk on t fr •'ir ^^T n W "'" °'"''"^^ ^^^ ^" "--" ^Vitness's letter to J. u. Langolier rerusL,''.^" "^'''"^^ "^« ^'^'"P""y. 588. n^orethan $185,000,589. ThecLpanylZUe-nnTh': "^/"-'-"^'^ ^^'aim for 592 Lonergan592, 295. 599, 6r8. SubZt b "f ^'^ '' ''''''"''^^''"^ ^of 1?^- ^^^™« «f Cooper Fairman and C roi '^%^*^'»Pa-''y in Armstrong's 698. 607. 608. Contract of the comX "vlth H /T'''''"' ^'^'^ '"'"'^'e^ Riopel, 606. Interview between Cooper Maenf'n?' ^"^^ ^"'^^rviews with drafts of the Order in Council, (No 2T7) fios f '"^ *''" ^■''"'^«'''' «"«• Many produced, as exhibits 184 a tom< 610 A, ? ,'™""i P'"'' *" ^""P^r. 610. Cheques Agreements with old comp^^y'^^! L^t 1 oTaK"' '° "f"'' ^"^ Robitaille.Tn of ra,l way companies by Order i„ CoS T 63""? f ^^"^'''"^ «'' oharterB contrac between the company and Hogan 74"1 T ^ T ""' '" P™^''"=^ the pany, 741. Discharge of the 26th .Tunc f?frtLt 742^ Heard 6 or 8 months before Zil h!f M n""' ?' *''" '"^"^y P^"'! to Riopel to $75,000 to Pacaud, 742. ^'^ *''''' MacDonaid was to pay from $50,^)' VAUlfiRE PHrLIPPE.-Manufacturer -Votes nf P . , witness. 686. 687, 683. 708 Security gifen by L^rw ''' *20,000 endorsed by the 68., 703, 704. Explains the prese^.ce of Hon P i T'''' ^'^^^is endorsement, witness at the Banquedu Peuple, 687 688 689 T^'"^''""" ^"''^ ^"^'^'^"'^ ^"^ ^e witness for each endorsement, 187 Hrrhfr r"™ •"' ^'^^ '^'^'S^^ ^y ,he ot 150,000 to Mr. Dumouiin, 687. 688.?04 SoI m^rdS '"' f ' "°' ^^'^'^^ '^ ^'p"«i* before the inquiry respecting the convei^attn jw '"^'^S'" ""'^^ ^' '^' ^i'»««« Dumouiin, 688. Cheques of other governZrdt ^it "tb^^^^^^ '^"'^ ^^• t?m. a.scounted by the witness, 689, 699, 1044 Digest of the evidence VALLIfiRE, PHILIPPE.— Continued. 700. Order in Council of the Federal Parliament, 700. Produces letter of Sir Hector Langevin to witness 10th February, 1891 and Order in Council of the Federal Government to which the letter refers (exhibit, 160, lti7), 702. Conversation be- tween the witness, Pacaud and Lafrance respecting the discount of the note of $20,000,816,817. WEBB, ELLIOTT E.—Cn«hier of the Union Bank.— Letters of credit, 228, 229, 230,231,235, 242, 249, 259. Interviews with Pacaud respecting the letters of credit and cheques, 228, 231, 232, 241. Interviews with J. C. Langeiier, 228. Interviews with Mr. Machin, 229, 247. Letter of witness to Mr. Machin asking copy of Order in Council No. 237 (Exhibit 30) and Mr. Machin's answer (Exhibit 31), 230. 5 cheques of $20,000 each, signed by J. C. Langeiier, in favor of Armstrong, presented by Pacaud at the Union Bank (Exhibits 32a, 326, 32c, 32(/, 32e), 231, 235, 236, 250, 251. 252, 255, Statement shown by Pacaud to witness of notes that he had to pay and of the employment of the money, 232, 241. Letter of witness to P. ■"'alli^re (Exhibit No. 33), 233, 245. Letter of witness to Mr. Bousquet (Exhibit No. 34), 233, 245. Letter of witness to C. Langeiier (Exhibit No. 35), 234. Account of J. C. Langeiier (Exhibit No. 36) 235, 258. Credit of Pacaud at the Union Bank, 235, 237, 288. Accounts of Pacaud at the Union Bank (Exhibits 37 and 38), 236. Note of P:icaud for $3,000 endorsed by Hon. H. Mercier, and others, 237, 251, 254, 260. Note of $5,000 by Pacaud, endon^ed by Messrs. Mercier, Tai te, C. A. P. Pelletier and Lange- iier, 237, 251, 2.55. Copy of receipts given by Pacaud for the cheques remitted to him (Exhibit 39), 238. Checiue of $25,000 transferred to Pacaud's account at the Savings Department of the Union Bank, 240, 252, 253, 256, 258. Interview with Messrs. Lafrance and Gaboury, 242. 243, 249. Deposit slip at the Banque du Peuple, 13th July, 1891 (Exhibit 40), 257, 258. Cheques of Hon. Mr. Mercier for $5,000 and $3,.500 on the Caisse d'Economie endorsed by Pacaud, 680, 681. These cheques deposited at the Union Bank 681, 682, 683. Those cheques not deposited to Pacaud's account 684. Statement showing Pacaud's notes at the Union Bank since the 28th February 1891, 684. Statement of Pacaud's accc at the Union Bank from the 30tVi April to the 13ih August 085. Produces deposit slip by Pacaud at the Union Bank of $1,000 'each ( Exhibits 188, 189, 190.) 729. Produces deposit slips by Pacaud for $500 (Exhibit 191) 729. Produces deposit slip for $4,000 by Pacaud to the Union Bank (Exhibit 192), 729. Produces cheque of J. C. Langeiier, commis- sioner in favor of Armstrong for $534-25. (Exhii:.it 193), 729. Produces note of $5,000 of the 12th March 1891, signtd by Pacaud and endorsed by Hon. Messrs Mer- cier, C. Langelier.Peiletier and Mr. Tarte. (Exhibit 195), 730. ^ CANADA, ) Province op Quebec, I (Jity of Montreal. J A^']^[EXEs. SECRETARY'S COMMISSION. o«l...enbu2e"Z„';::^:„j:"» «% »' Montreal, .he *!„,.„„. day „f September, . (Signed) L. A. JETTE, G. BABY, C. P. DAVIDSON, . Coimniasionera. y Koyal Commission :-Sa help me God. Sworn before me, at Quebec this ) ^'"'"''^ ''^''^'''''' ^FLAMME. sixth day of October" 1891: } (Signed) L. A. TETT^, Commissioner. CANADA, ) RioviNCE OF Quebec, l Oi'y 0/ Quebec. t B 1046 Annexes oiie to make inquiry ioto and report on the facts and circumstances which preceded, accom- panied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Vict., (ihap. 88, in so far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, hereby appoint Louis Jules B^langer, of Quebec, advocate, secretary to the said Commission, in the place and stead of Mr. Leopold Laflamme, of Montreal, advocate, the resignation of the latter, dated the four- teenth day of the present month of October having been accepted. Given under our hands, at the said day of Quebec, this twenty-first of October eighteen hundred and ninety-one. L. A. JETT6, G. BABY, C. P. DAVIDSON, Commissioners. (Signed) I swear that I will weM 8-id truly, to the best of my ability, perform the duties of secre- tary to which office I have been appointed by the Royal Commission : So help me God. (Signed) J. BELANGER. Sworn before mo at Quebec, this ) • twenty-fourth day of Oct., 1891. J (Signed) L. A. JETT6, President of the Commission. CANADA, Province of Quebec, OUy of Quebec. G REGISTRAR'S COMMISSION. We, the Honourable Louis A. Jett6, judge of the Superior Court, Louis Frangois Georges Baby, judge of- the Court of Queen's Bench, and Charles Peers Davidson, judge of the Superior Court, in virtue of the powers upon us conferred as Royal Ci 'mmissioners, appointed by Letters Patent, dated on the twenty-first of September, eighteen hundred and ninety-one, to make inquiry into and report on the facts and circumstances which preceded accompanied, caused and followed the transactions made under the Act 54 Vict., Chap. 88, in 80 far as it relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, hereby appoint Crawford William Augustus Lindsay, of the city of Quebec, Esquire, Advocate, Registrar of the said Commission. Given under our hands at the said city of Quebec, the twenty first of October, eighteen hundred and ninety-one. ft (Signed) L. A. JETTfe, G. BABY, C. P. DAVIDSON. Commissioners. Annexes 1047 CANADA, ) FfiovxNcE OF Quebec I FOBM OF SUBPCENA TO WITNESSES. itoviNcE OF Quebec ihstrict of Quebec. Honorable Chjules ftims B-ividbon .ni, r!i . ° '^""" "' «'"eii', Benol, S .J .n enquiry i„to and ,eport on .hT^^,."*! if ""« *'P='"" «»"«. Commi„iro„ .„ 1 'J" To « olook in the forenoon on the ' "' *° '^"^ »' Q"ebeo, .t hu, p„/S" "'■ " day of "' 'He day of"" "'" "" ''^"'''' ^* *^« ^^^^ o^- Quebec, this eight hundred and ninety-one. '" *^« ^"^^ of Our Lord ond thousand Commissioners, E. FORM OF WITNESSES' OATH. matte;:;rE,:^fS^^;S;- that the ^ .ive in this -nquiry into and report or the facTan ? ^f' °^ ^'^^ ^'«^'nce of Quebec to mS caused and followed the transactitiX:?":^^ which preceded^ ac. m^a'S relates to the Baie des Chaleurs Rai wrCora,w h',f? 'u ^'°'- ^^'^P' ««■ '" - faras t noth.ng but the truth :-So help jou God ' ^'^ ''"" ""' *^« *™th, the whole truth and ALPHABETICAL LIST SUBJECT. Account :— No. Date of document. Priated at page. Unpaid account of $298,943.62 bv the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, with a receipt of JITS'. 000.00 paid by J. 0. Langelitr... '.. Address:— Extracts from addresses of the citi- zens of different municipalities of the county of Bonaveature con- cerning the rail way. .." Certificates:— Certificates of work done on the sections K. L. M. N.. .7 121 182 Certificates signed by A. L. Lighl r^lwa "^ ^"'^ ***' Ohaleurs Cheques :— OF J. 0. IiANOBLlBB Cheques for 120,000 each in favor o' Langelfer.';:?.^^ ^i^r.'..'^...-!.-! aL" ''&/LV^<'n«''??"l?^*«onale, 202i to 29th April, 18^1 17th July, 1888, 7th January, 1891 Ist October, 1888 , «gned by J. C. Langelier, com' missioner payable to 0. N. Arm- strong for $31,750. 53a to 53e Do $24,000 Do $16,000 Do $111.64 Do $2,250.00 °'ll?r°7- °- ^^ngelier, 23rd July 193 29th April, 1891 28th << 28th « 28th << 28th << 13th July, 1891 23rd ( Cited at page. 67 1060 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Date of document. Cheques : — Continued. or HON. H. MBBOIEB Original cheqne of the Bon. Mr Mercier inifavor of E. Pacaud for „ $6,000.00 on the Caisse d'Econo- ■ mleN.-D Original of the cheque to bearer f3,500.00 endorsed by E. Pacaud. or I. FAOAUD, PERSONAL Pacabd's cheque, personal II II: Hi II II i( 41 II II II ! Ill 9S 96 86-2 to 86-9 86-12 86-14 86-16, 86-17 86-19, 86-20 86-22 88-4 88-9 88-11 to 88-16 88-18 to 88-21 88-26 to 88-31 88-34 to 88-36 88-38 to 88-40 88-42 to 88-44 88-46 to 88-64 88-66 to 88-69 88-77 to 88-82 22nd March, 1891... 24th October, 1891., 14th May, 1891. 14th " .... 14th " .... 14th 14th " Uth May, 1891. 14th " 14th 14th Uth 14th Uth 14th 14th Uth Uth Uth Printed at page. 938 939 936 Cited at page. 416 416 381 , 381 381 382-383 383 383 383 384 384 384-386 386 386 386 386 386-387 387-388 388 Alphabet teal list ofex/iibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. Cheques :— Continued. 4( U l( <( << «( II No. Date of docDment, Printed at page. 88-84 88-86 to 88-90 88-92, 88-93 88-98 88-100 to 88-110 488-112, 88-114 roa BLIOTION 30NTBSTATI0N8 Pacaud' a cheque, Deposit, Contesta- tloa Oaron, Chicoa- timi, flOOO.OO to Desch^nes, M. P. P. TraTelling ex- penses to Cliioou- timi, $30.00 88-116 to 88-117a 88-119 88-121 to 88-129 88-131 to 88-149 88-161, 88-162 88-167 to 88-171 89-6,89-7 89-10 to 89-13 89-14a to 89-16a 89-16 to 89-18 86-10 88-45 14th May 14th " 14th " 14th " 14th •< 14th " 16th July, 1891.. 16th " 16th June, 1891. 16th " I6th " 8th September, 1891 , 8th •< 8th " 8th " 8th « 14 th May, 1891. 4th «' 1051 Cited at page. 388 388 388 389 389 389 389-390 390 390 390-391 391 392 393 394 394 395 381 386 tl I y 1062 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBn'S PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Cheques :— Continued. Draft Qeoffrion.Q.C. J500.00,conleg tatioiia, Vaudreuil and L'Assomp- tiuii, aad Pacaud's cheque... FOR SLICTION EXPEN8K8 Account of L.J. Demerg, of r.^v^ne- ment, $1,000, election literature and ch6que Pacaud'a cheque to Mr. Jos. Martin, for election services. " " Hon. C A. P. Pel- letier, election ex- penses, $1,000 " " to Desmarais, M P. P., election ex- penses, $230 Pacaud's cheque to Godreau tt al.— Election expenses, $1,000. To credit of Hon. Caas Langelier, $3,000 FOR MISCELLANEOUS Cheque for $5,000.00 on the Banque Nationale, by Pacaud BeauBoleil, draft and cheque.. " " re McQreevy, $500,00 paid Geoffrion Q. C... 2 notes of A. Carrier, and 1 cheque ofPacaud, 400,00 3 drafts of Armatronfr, on E. Pacaud : $2,000.00, 1,000.00 and $2,000.00. Cheque $1,000 signed by Pacaud.. Beausoleil, draft and cheque.. Account and cheque Cheque of $5,000 on the Banque Nationale. See 66-la.- Beausoleil, draft and cheque., 88-85 88-7 88-8 88-32 88-117 89-4 86-la 86-16 86-11 8fr-l3 86-18 87-7 87-8 87-9 87-10 Pacaud' a cheque, to Philippe Valtidre, for his endorsaiion, ^600.00 88-2 Note of $1,000 and Pacaud's cheque.. 88-10 Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. 14th May 14th 14th 14th 14th 8th September, 1891... 14th May, 1891. 14th " 14th 14th 14th " 8th September, 1891. 8th " 8ih <' 8th " 14th May, 1891. 14th " 388 384 384 385 389 393 380 380 381 381 383 398 398 398 398 383 384 Alphabetical list of exhibits pr,uluced 1058 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Dateof documetit Cheques :— Continued. ° •,'lt"«> ""'* """l Pacaud'g cheque, iplOO.OO ^ ' Pacaud'schequetoA.Carrier.M P P $150.00 '* " toPhilinpeValliAre, $500 for endorsa' lion Cheque and Telegram." OhoquetVe'.'.! Cheque, money lent to L. J. Demerg, $3,000.00 Pacaud's cheque. Subscription of the Hon. Mr. Duhamel to the Union tilub and not repaid Cheque of the 28th September 1801, B. Pacaud $1000 FOR HO.V. 0. LANORLUR Pacaud's cheque, paid Frs. Parent tor Hon. Chs. Langelier, $918.23 Pacaud'a cheaue. Deposit for Hon Obs. Langeher, $200.00 Pacaud's cheque,$555.40 to Hon. C Langeher and Tarte Receipt for $500.00, Hon. C. Lanire lier,8ub8Cription " Fortress Hotel.' Pacaud's cheque, to J. B. Morin, for Hon. C. Langelier $2,000 being for Hon. Chas. Lan geher Pacaud's cheque, Hon. Chaa. Lanee- Her, $500.00., FOR HOW. H. MEBCIBR Cheques paid for Hon. H. Mercier. FOR KLKOTORAL LISTS Pacaud'scheque, to J.A. Tessier, Re- vision electoral lists. Three -Ri vers, $30... 88-17 88-22 88-25 if 33 89-ga 89-15e 197 86-18 88-5a 88-6 88-16a 88-41 89-8 89-14 87-1 to 87-19 86-21 14th May, 1801. 14th " 14 th " 14th " 8th September, 189].. 8th •< 28th September, 1890.. 14th May, 1891., 14th " 14th " 14th " 14th " 8th September, 1891. 8th '1 8th 14th May, 1891 . Printed p.. . , at page. *^"ed at page. 938 979 3S4 385 385 394 395 743 381 384 384 384 386 393 394 397 to 399 383 1054 AlphaO. ieal Hst of exhibits produr^d Af.PHABETICAL L' Op EXHIBITS PBODI'i KD — -J-^.-Jj- II _ i t_ J jj. SUBJJfiCT. No. Cheques :— Continued. Pacaud'scbtque.iteTisioo of elec- toral liita, Jo8. P ' Boy, «26.00 to R. Rinfret, revi- siou ol'election listi Cbamplaia revision of electo- ral lists, Rodolpbe Roy, $25.00 Revision of electo- ral lists, Iiuuig 0. Mokin Revision of electo- ral lists, $25.00.... toB.Letellier-Revi- lion uf electoral lists, Quebec-West, $20.00 toAug.Tessier-Re- vision of electoral lists, Rimoudki, $25.00 to Ant. Tascbereau — Revision of lists, Beatice, $25. Revision of electo- ral lists, $25.00.... tc- J. Pinault, M 1.. P. — Revi. (ion of electoral lists, Matane. $30 00 OHIQDES OF MR. THOII Mr. A. Tbom'8 cheque .... 88-37 88-83 88-91 88-94 88-96 88-97 88-90 88-115 88-118 88-150 134a to 134t Contracts :— Contract between Her Mi -tv rn-| presented by tbe Minister i. "^ U ways and tbe Bale de^ i, -. s, railway company respecii' :^ «. , | sidy for 20 miles between fi.ti p, ■ diac and Paspebiac ' It') Date of dooumuij 14th M«y, 1891. 14tb 14th 14th " 14tb 14th May, 1891.. 14th 14th 15th June, 1891. 16th 28th April, 1891 . 1st May, 1891 ... 7th '.■ . ■ Taber, 1885., Printed at paye. 956 Cited at page. 88* 380 388 388 389 389 389 389 390 694 684 706 t page. Atp/iabfiiical list of exhibits produced 10M ALPHABETICAL LIST OP BXHIBITS PRODDOiiD Of.i'ract between Her Majesty re r-eaented by the Minigter of Rail- WATS and the Bale dea Ohaleurs rai wav compuny respecting sub- ildies for 10 milea of the SHid rail- way company Proviaional contract between the Bale dea Chaleurs railway com- §any and Her Majeatv represented y the Minister of liailways reg- peoting the application of its sub- sidy. Contract between 0. N. Armstrong and the Uaie des Chaleurs railway company for the construction and the completion of the road between Metapediaand Paspebiac ni 169 no Oon.ract between 0. N. Armstrong contractorand Mr. McFarlane sub- contractor foi the construction etc, of certain parts of the Bale des Ohaleurs railway and raiitication by Theodore Robitaille president of the company with joint obliga- tion of the company towards the contractor in favor of the sub-con- tractor., ' Courrier du Canada " :— Copy of thii " Courrier du Canada 27th April 1891 Cover of Record:— Part of the cover of the record 647 in connection with the Order in Coun- cil No. 237 Declaration :— Declaration as to the ownership of I'Electeur _ Deposit Slips :— Deposit Slip at the Union Bank for 12,690.00 Deposit slii 'eposit slip of $3,000 in the Ranque du Peuple, in favor of Mr. Charles Langelier 172 195 23 97 40 SI 7th Norember, 1885. 2nd June, 1888. 9th June, 1886. 8lh June, 1888. 958 061 963 705 705 70S 27th April, 1891. 969 740 24th October, 1891 13th July, 1891.. llth « 7(»S 786 217 467 3S7 302 1066 Alphabetical list of exhibtts produced ALPHABBTIOAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No, Deposit Slips :— Continued. Deposit slip of the Banque duPeuple for $14,607.34 Deposit slip in the Banque Nationale of $9,300.00 to the credit of the Caisse d'Economie N.-D. de Qa6' bee Deposit slip by Pacaud at Banque du Peuple Deposit slip, Pacaud, at Banque du Peuple 62 69 Deposit slip of deposit at the Caisse d'Economie N.-D. de Quebec by Hon. Mr. Mercier Deposit slip of the Union Bank, 2nd March, 1891 Union Bank, $3,000 1,000 500 , 4,000 , Deposit slip $2,000, Merchants Bank, Deposit slip $2,000, Merchants Bank. Deposit slips at the Banque du Peuple by E. Pacaud from the 3rd March ■ to the 29th September, 1871 Deposit slip at the Banque du Peuple byB. Pacaud, $2,500 Drafts :— Drafts of letters and reports with reference to the Order in Council No. 237. Drafts not agreed to.... Draft of letter of credit addressed to the Union Bank Judgment :— Judgment againstHacFa^Iane,g^an^ ing possession of the road to the company » 88-154 88-155 88-156 137 188 189 190 191 192 198 199 200 204 41 42 131 Date of document. 8th May, 1891. 16th May, 1891 8th September, 1891. 8th " 8th " 10th March, 1891.. 2nd " 2nd " 5th " 9th " 12th " 11th July, 1891 nth " 11th " 3rd " 21st April, 1891 28th April, 1891 29th June 1891.. Printed at page. 953 976 976 977 77 978 980 981 982 908 893 268, 897 948 Cited at page. 302 323 392 392 392 622 728 729 729 729 729 743 743 782 783 263 274 582 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced t page. 1067 # ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PROf)UOBD SUBJECT. No. letters :— Letter from Mr Thom to the Hon. P. Garneau on which the Order in Council No 237. ia based 10 Letter from Hon. E. Robidoux, per Hon. C. Langelier, to Hon. P. Garneau, opinion as Attorney Ge- neral, on Mr. Thorn's proposition. 11 Letter from Mr. Cannon Assistant Attorney General containing his opinion on the agreements made with the Bale des Chaleurs Rail- way Company in virtue of Order in Council No. 237 12 Letter from Hon. F. Langolier to Mr. Cpnnon approving his opinion on the Bale des Chaleurs matter Letter from J. 0. Langelier to the Hon. P. Garneau mentioning the delivery to him by Mr. Thom of the shareholders' list and bonds of the company for $500,000 Letter from Mr. Thom to Mr. Moreau asking for the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Company's subsidies, and that such payment be made m a certain manner Mr. Moreau' s reply to Mr. Thom that the payment would be made in the manner mentioned in the preced- ing letter Letter from J. C. Langelier to Hon. P. Garneau forwarding the list of claims produced but not paid against the Bale des Chaleurs Rail way Company 13 16 17 Letter from Mr. Thom to Mr Garneau asking a change in the method of paying the subsidy Letter from the Hon. P. Garneau to Mr. Thom granting the demand contained in the preceding letter... Letter from Hon. P. Garneau to Mr Thom, concerning the letter of credit for $175,000. (This letter was returned and cancelled.) 18 19 21 22 24 Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. 17th April, 1891. 20th " 24th " 24th " 23rd Sept. 1891., 24th April, 1891. 24th April, 1891. 24th April, 1891. 5th June, 1891., 16th " 1891.. 27th April, 1891. 139 178 179 181 186 188 189 161 221 211 222 139 271 661 943 644 944 213 1058 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Letters : — Continued. Letter from Mr. Webb to Mr. Machin sskiQg for copies of the Orders in Council Letter from Mr. Machin to Mr, Webb transmitting the Orders inOouncil Letter from Mr. Webb to Mr. Val- liftre concerning the payment of one ot the cheques for $20,000 Letter from Mr Webb to Mr. Bous quel concerning the payment of another cheque for f 20,000 Letter from Mr. Webb to Mr.J.C.Lan- jjelier notifying him that he had received the letter of credit signed by Hon. Mr. Oarneau Letter authorizing the Union Bank of Canada to advance $100,000 to Mr. J C. Langelier to pay the cl-ims against the Baie des Oha- leurs company in virtue of the Order in Council No. 237 Letter authorizing the Banque Na- tional to advance $75,000 to Mr. J. 0. Langelier to pay the claims against the Baie des Chaleurs company in virtue of the Order in Council No. 237 30 31 33 34 35 43 Letter from Mr. Moreau to Mr. Ma- chin espectinK the $75,000 in favoi of the Baie des Chaleurs comp ly, not yet due, but to be S laced in the estimates to be put efore the House Letter trom Mr. Dumoulin to Mr Bousquet, 6th May 1891, concern- ing Mr. Pacaud's note for $20,000, endorsed by Mr. Valli6re, announ- cing that the Hon. C. Langelier promised a deposit of $50,000.... 44 46 Letter from E. Moreau to H. T. Machin, asking for the issue of a money warrant for $25,000 Letter from E. Moreau to H. T. .Machin, asking for the issue of a money warrant for $15,090- 50 66 67 Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. 29th April 1891., 30th " 1891. 6th May, 1891. 230 230 233 16th " 16th 28th 28th « 233 18th June, 1890. 6th May 1891. 8th 2nd July, 1891. 234 145 898 546 267 267 899 912 913 286 301 320 320 at page. 233 167 6T 20 2» Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCKD 1059 I SUBJECT. No. Letters :— Continued. Letter from B. Paoaud to the Banque Nationale, settlement, cheques and receipt for these cheques Letter from Armstrong to Pacaud concerning the formation of a syn- dicate to replace the Bale des Cha- leurs Company Letter from Mr. Armstrong to Mr Pacaud in same terms Letter from Armstrong to Pacaud respecting the payment of 000 , Letter from Armstrong to Pacaud respecting the company's arran- gements Letter from H. Cameron to Pacaud. Letter from Hon. George Irvine to Mr. Cameron concerning the trans- fer of the charter of the railway company Letter of Mr. Cameron to Hon. Mercier on the same subject. Mr. Letter from Mr. MacDonald to Hon. Mr Mercier concerning the Bale des Cbaleurs railway company ... Acknowledgement of receipt by Mr Mercier of Mr. McDonald'^s letter... Letter from Mr. Hector Cameron re- £ resenting J. J. McDonald to Mr. ercier with reference to the com- pletion of the railway Acknowledgement of receipt by Mr. Mercier ofa letterfrom Mr.Cameron. 109 Letter from Mr. H. Cameron to the Hon. Mr Mercier with reference to the completion of the woik no 71 73 74 79 80 85 103 104 105 107 108 Letterfrom Hon. H. Mercier aoknow ledging receipt of Mr. Cameron's letter Letter from Mr. Laflamme to Mr. Mereier concerning the proposals of Cooper 4 al for the completion of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Ill U2 Date of document. 7th August, 1891 10th March, 1891 nth " 30th " 14th April, 1891 11th September, 1891 7th February, 1891.. 17th March, 1891 16th November, 1890. 17th '< 5th December, 1890.. 9th " 7th February, 1891... 12th " 13th March, 1891. 505 507 508 508 610 549 506 554 1060 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODDCED SUBJECT. No. Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page . Letters : — Continued. Letter from Hon. Mr. Mercier to Mr. Laflaoime in answer to the letter of the 12th March concern ing the proposition of the Bale des Cbaleurs railway Letter from the Hon. Mr. Robi taille to the Government asking a subsidy for the railway and answer Letter from Mr. Moreau to Mr. Mer- cier concerning Mr. Armstrong's claims Letter from Mr. Laflamme to the Hon. Mr. Mercier concerning the claims of Cooper, Fairman, Mac Farlane & Co. And Hon. Mr. Mer cier's answer.. , Letter from La Banque de Paris and des Pays-Bas crediting Mr. Mercier with 25,499franc3 and 80 centimes. Letter of the 5anque de Paris et des Pays-Bas creditina: Hon. Mr. Mer- cier with 25,000 francs Letter from Mr. Riopel to Mr. Cooper re transfer of the charter of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway Com- pany ' Letter from Mr. A. Thom to the Hon. Mr. (ranieau notifying him of the election of the directors and offl cers of the coranany , Lettar .'rom Hon. P. Garneau to Mr A. Thom acknowledging receipt of the letter of the 12th May 1891... Letter from the Hon. P. Garneau transmitting copies of letters con- cerning certain dangerous parts of the railway Letter from Mr. A. Thom to the Hon. P. Oarn<>au asking that money be placed at .Mr. J. 0. Langelier's disposal to pay claims against the old company Letter from Mr. A. M. Thom to the Hon. Pierre Oarneaii, asking for a list of the claims paid by Mr. J. C. 113 114 119 120 122 123 125 126 128 129 130 13tb 13th " 28th October, 1891. UtbJune, 1890. 29th May, 1891.. 6th July, 1891., 8th March, 1891 12th May, 1891 . 4th May, 1891 . 14th May, 1891., 29th June, 1891. 610 614 620 621 659 66< 947 682 654 614 629 630 670 t page. S4 U 39 iO ro \i Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODUCED 1061 SUBJECT. No. Letters :— Continued. LanKelier.commissioner and trans- mitting copy of the charter of ihe company jgg ^*M *"■ Ju°" **'® ^°" P- Garneau to Mr. Thom, acknowledging receipt of the letter of the 6 th October, 1891 . 133 Letter from Mr. Thom, to Mr. J. C Lanoelier, refusing to certify Mr. U. N. Armstrong's account for more than $176,000.00 135 Letter from Mr. Marcoux to Mr C16menl concerning the Hon. Mr. Mercier's account 133 Letter from Mr. Marcoux to Mr. C16 ment concerning Mr. Mercier's account. Letter from Mr. Moreau to Mr. J Langelier giving notice of the issue of a cheque of $15,000 T n •°°^ ^°"- ^- Garneau to Mr. J. C. Langelier authorizing him to verify and establish the debts due by the Bale des Chaleurs Rail w. C. ^*T* o ^r"™ ^°°- *''■• Garneau to Mr. J. C. Langelier acknowledging re- ceipt of the list of claims against the Bate des Chaleurs Railway Co. Letter from Mr. Cooper to Mr. J. C Langelier acknowledging receipt of a cheque of $2,250.00 Letter from Hon. Mr. Garneau to Mr Langelier acknowledging receipt of the letter of the 23rd April con- taining the ahareiioldeis list and debentures of the Baie des Chaleurs railway company for $500,000 ... Letter from Mr. Pacaud to M-. Lan- gelier asking him to take a note of the enclosed contract Letter from K. Moreau to Mr. J. C Langelier with copy of instructions given to Mr. L. A Valine by Hon. E. Robidoux Letter from Mr. Garneau to Mr. J. C Langelier, concerning the docu- 140 142 143 144 145 146 148 150 Date of document. 6th October, 1891, 8th October, 1891.. 24th April, 1891. 10th March, 1891.. Uth " 2nd May, 1891. 24th April, 1891. 27th " 16th July, 1891 . ., 24th April, 1891... 26th April, 1891... 8th May, 1891.. Printed at page. Cited at page. 682 683 589 624 625 641 644 646 649 649 651 662 'ft m m 1062 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced I)' 1 - I ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Letters :— Continued. ments asked for by Mr. KinK, mana- ger of the Ontario Bank at Toronto. better from Mr. Langelier to Mr. S. Lesage, concerning the unpaid claims Mr. Moreau' 8 answer to Mr. Lange- lier, transmitting the official che- ques Let. from Mr. Moreau toHr.Langelier ackn. receipt of the two statements through Mr. Michaud Letter from Mr. Morecu to Mr. Lan- gelior re claims A. L. Light Let. from Mr. Langelier to Mr. Lesage. Letter from Mr. Lesage' to M". Lan- gelier, concerning the payment of certain claims Let. fr. Mr. Langelier to Mr.Garneau, showing how $28,546 was expended. Letter from Mr. Lesage to the Hon. Mr. Oarneau, respecting the order given him to appear before the enate Committee Letter from Sir Hector Langevin of the 10th February 1891, toT*r. Val- li^res, respecting furniture claims against Federal Government Letter from J. 0. Langelier to E. Moreau transmitting Mr. Tbom's telegram concerning Mr. Light's claim Letter from J. C. Langelier to Hon. Mr Garneau acknowledging re- ceipt of cheque of $15,000 Letter from Mr. ,J. C. Langelier to Hon. .Mr. Garneau informing him that Mr. Langelier was ready to begin payments of the contested claims Letter from J. C. Lanj^elier to Hon. Mr. Garneau showing how the $175,000 was expended Letter from Mr. J. C. Langelier to Hon. Mr. Garneau concerning the 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 160 165 166 210 211 212 213 Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. 15th " 1891.. 30th June, 1891 nth July, 1891.. 2nd " 1891.. ■ ■ t 6th " 1891.. 8th " 10th " 9th December, 1891... 16th September, 1891.. 15 th " 22nd 15th May, 1891. 654 654 65S 656 658 6S9 660 954 28th April, li'.H.. 9th April, |S!»1.. 662 677 702 806 806 806 803 1 \ It page. 162 177 03 06 06 06 OS Alphabetical list of exhibUs produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED 1063 SUBJECT. No. letters :— Continued. Letter from J. C. Langelier to Mt Tfaom Xista:— ^'^1=°^^ *,^''"*^°'"1«''8 of the Baie des Chaleur8 Railway Company.. List of deposits and other disburse- ments in connection with the Fede- ral election contestations 2U 216 16 99 List of the shareholders of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com- P^^y 127 List of claims filed with the Go- vernment on all the line and not paid List of claims ^'l*ii°*" '^^f'T P^'<* <"» the first 60 Rairway':..'^!.^":!..^!'....^'"''^"" List of payments by the Federal Government $524,176.. List of payments by the Quebec government $370,000 .;....;. List of payments made on each sec- tion, out of the subsidies •^'Rli«°l=°P?.'''/^' «I?°t«« . Baie dea Chaleurs Railway Com pany ■; ""^ Memoranda : — Memorandum of Mr. Moreau, ex- plaining the balance of $8,000.00 to the credit of tbe Baie des Char leurs railway 147 158 159 174 176 178 Memorandum for the Hon. C. Abbott concerning the financial position of the Baie des Chaleurs ftallway 117 136 Date of document. 17th June, 1891.. 23rd April, 1891. 23rd April, 1891.... 16th April, 1891 26th October, 1891, 24th April, 1891 8th June, 1888 , 8th June, 1888 22nd October, 1891 , 179 22nd October, 1891 19th October, 1891 June, 1891 , Printed at page. 184 939 666 947 973 974 974 976 517 952 Cited at page. 807 781 660 661 661 712 705 706 706 600 1064 Alpliabelical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SDBJECT. No. Date of document. Printed at page. Cited at page. Minutes :— Extract of the minutes of a meeting of the directors of the Bancjue Nationale ; resolution refusinu to discount letter of credit oT $100,(00.00 Money Warrants :— Money warrant for $100,000 in favor of the Union Bank Money warrant for $634.26, being the interest on the preceding amount Money warrant for $75,000 in favor of the Banquo Nationale Money warrant fur $400.68, interest on $75 000 Money warrant for $1,600 in favor of J. C Langelier to pay claims against Bale des Chaleurs R'y Co Money warrant for $25,000 in favor of J. C. Langelier to pay claims against Bale des Chaleurs R'y Co Money warrant for $15,000 in favor of J. C. Langelier, to pay claims against the Bale des Chaleurs Rail way Company Notes :— Notarial copy of a protest by Cy Tessier ot a note of two months for $5,000, dated Quebec, 28th Feb., 1891, signed by Ernest Pacaud and SByable to the order of Hon. H. [ereier, endorsed by H. Mercier,K. Langelier, Chs. Langelier, C. A. P. Pelletieraud Ernest Pacaud ... Note for $20,000.00 in favor of Phi- lippe Valli6res, and signed by Ei- nest Pacaud Note of Ernest Pacaud in favor of Valli6res for $20,000 Note of 16th April 1891 by Ernest Pacaud to the order of Hon. Mr. Mercier for $5,000 payable at one monih and endorsed by Messrs. Mercier, Langelier, Pel- 65a 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 70 83 84 15th May, 1891 9lh July, 1891 9th " " 9th " " 9th " " Ist May " 9th " " 3rd July, " let May, 1891.. 6th " „ 12th •' 9('0 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 914 914 319 319 319 319 319 319 319 323 377 377 \ Alphabetical li,t of exhibits produced 1066 ted at page. 319 319 319 319 319 319 319 323 377 377 ALPHABKTICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED Votes :— Continued. Pacau3"Vfc""'V ^""KoW-r »nd E Pacaud . :!!!'.'°..P.^^..r!' "^ H. Mercer, by E. :Pacaud. da?ed MerSr V r '*''•, •"'"'^''^''IH n^^Mud'ardte.r.^^::|88.l 2rdVaa"'»„fc£^^^^ risSV'rr ''f *•'« Sr'^o"' J160.00 by Jas. Carrell to his or der and endorsed by E.Pac!!!,d' ""tud-SSeTue!..*?:"!'.- *«"» P-, I 8^5 88-16 Paoaud'8 note, personnel | 8g.i„ ITote Ohg. Lanfcelier for SI 600 on chequT"!;!:^:!^^;-^^^^^^ Note, L.Ledieax, in order of Pacmirt I protest and Pacaud's oh^ue ". ."^.'j 88-130 ''*ch^,°ie''°!*...P'°!**!.:.".^..P*«''»«l'8, Note b^ Pacaud to order of Hon Mr fs"""/"^ $3,000 of IsT Ipri Tarte'o'*p"!'*p''T, ^- ^^^<^^Vl\ I arte, U. p. a. Pelletier and Chka Langeherand Pacaud's cheque*!." j 89-3 Pwaud's note to the order of Hon Pacaud's note to the order of Hon lp^"miZ^^"''!('t "' 'be 1st Apri. 1881 endorsed by H Mer- Ch'; /• ^*?.'*' O- A- P Pel efier Cha. Langelier, P. Danjrel er a' Demers and Pacaud's cheque .'..„; 89-9 uo 1066 Alphabetical list of exhtbils produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODDCED SUBJECT. No. Notes :— Continued. Note signed by E. Pacaud, endorsed by Hon. Hoiioi-6 Met tier and Chas. Langelier for$5,000.00 Note of $6,000 sigaed by Pacaud, en- dorsed by H. Mercier, 0. Langelier, C. A. P. Pelletier, F. Langelier... Oaths :— Form of oath taken by the provincial ministers Orders in Council :— Certified copy of the Order in Coun- cil No. 237, with reference to the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Com- pany, approving the propositions made by A. Thorn ds-qualitS 98 205 208 Certified copy of the Order in Coun- cil No. 238, appointing J. 0. Lan- gelier assistant registrar of the Province of Quebec, commissioner for the payment of claims against the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company... , ;. Order in Council (No. 488) Report of a committee of the Honourable Executive Council, for an inquiry appointing Hon. Charles Lange- lier, commissioner Order in Council (.Vo. 606) appoint- ing J. C. Langelier to pay $28,- 64B on behalf of the Baie des Cha- leurs Cctapany 6 Order in Council (No. 567) appoint- ing a deputy Lieutenant Governor to sign money warrants 7 Order in Council (No. 410) appoint- ing the Royal Commission Order in Council. (No.ll2i,)produced as a form of an Order m Council for converting land subsidies into money 66 Date of document. 30th June, 1891. 15th April, 1891. Report 2l8t April, 1891.. Approved 23rd April, 1891. Report 21st April, 1891... Approved 23rd April, 1891 . 3rd October, 1889. Report 23rd November, 1991., Approved 26th November, 1891. Report 3l8t October 1887 Approved >rovember 3rd >fovember, 1887.. Report 10th September, 1891.. Approved 19th September, 1891. 7th February, 1891.. Approvea 9th February, 1891»., Piinted i^,. , . at page, j Cited at page. 939 989 464 789 805 19 882 885 887 888 890 890 901 1» 68 68 68 " 318 \ % Alphabetical list of exhibiU produced 1067 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODUOKD Cited At page. 464 789 805 19 19 68 68 318 Cited at page. Ordera-in-Council :— Continned. Form of an Order in Council concern- ing .he doubling up of subsidies. Order in Council (No. 488 naming I'hs. Lanuelier commissioner to pay the claims against the con- tractors of the Baie des Chaleurs railway Orde rder in Oonncil (No. 108) naming .„ I *."?..*''"' *° P*y f'e claw against the contractors... J. aims OrderinCouncil(No.4.59)co.iceriiinK the doubling up of the subsidy of wfttPfi' deBChaleur. railwayfbut with the order to keep $8,000. Order in counca of the Federal gov. ernement respecting the payment of the claim of P. Valliftre ..;, Pamphlets :— Pamphlet-Budget speech by Hon. .Mr. Shehyn provincial treasurer... Extracts from pamphlets contain- '"«">e reports of the Department yg^gPg^bl'c Works for tL years Pamphlet. Reply of the Baie des Cha- leurs Railway Company to the re- port ot the Commissioner, Mr otias. Langelier Pass Books :— ^TqV* Rationale, pass books folio Cheq nale.. eque book on the Banque Natio- lale Payments :— Payments by the Baie des Chalenrs railway company to C. N. Arm- strong (See aito Liata ) Petitions :— 57 lis 116 118 167 4S 201 206 183 164 173 20 Approved 2nd July, 1891 903 Adopted 3rd October, 1889 Approved 5th October 1889 941 „„,, , Adopted 20th March, 1890 Approved 21 March 1890 ..,.. 944 ,, , Adopted 17lh July, 1888 945 17th Juy, 1888 2nd February, 1891.... 5ih nn/tomliAn lonn 318 516 516 018 702 275 197 663 663 705 30th November, 1890 - -■.«.« J. . rtt -^£St£2~ h 1068 Alphabetical hit of exhibits j^oduced ALPHABETICAL LIST OF EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJKOT. No. PetitioM :— Continiud. Petition of the electors of New-Car- lisle concerning the railway ...... Petition of the electors c ^ ?a»pebiac Propositions .— Propogiiiongmadeby Mr. Thorn in the syndicate's name Propositions for the completion of the road of the Haie des ChaleUis nald to Hon. Mr. Meroier Beceipts :— ^ rniSi^ii^'u 5^ ^r- Pacaud, to the Union Bank fur his cheques 25 26 101 106 Receipt given by Mr. Pacaud to the Copy of a receipt given by Mr Paoaud to the fianque du l*euple lor cheques ^fSt'fh'i«'1*'l''7."^- J- MacDonald for the list of claims Beoommendations for monev warrants :— ' ■ Recommendation for monev war- rants $100,000 Do for $534.26 Do for $75,000.00 Do for $400.68 | Eeporta :— Report of the Hon. Attornev General mn.J.K. fiobidoux on f e Orderin Council Vo. 237 39 48 68 209 9 9 9 9 14 Mr. Langelier's special report. Ses- sional paper of the Legislative Assembly, No 90, 1889 .„.. Report of Legislative Assembly coa- toining Order in Council No. 337, Bate des Chaleurs 184 213 Date of dooumeot 3rd December, 1890. 2nd '• ISih April, 1891 15th November, 1890.., 10th August, 1891. 6th " 10th October, 1891 14th November, 1890., 9th July, 1891 28th April, 1891 . 2nd May, 1887.. Printed .p,. . . at page, ^'wa "t page. 237 940 S04 238, 239 321 890 891 892 893 181 227 327 489 298 806 68, 279 68 68 68 787 719 T Alphabetical list of exhibits produced /itcd at page. T ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED 337 337 489 398 806 68, 279 68 68 68 V67 71» '' SUBJECT. Reqnisition :— ^Til'.'.l°°»,^y, "• .P«aud, on the on Mr BHnquo Nationale, for draft on Paris, in favor of the Hon. Mercier for $8,000 Besolutiona :— Resolution of the electors of Perc6... Uegolution of the electors of I'Anse au Griffon and Perc6 ' °" *°'* Resolution of the Board of Trade of Resolutions concerning the subsidies to be granted to the Baie des Cha- leurs railway company 102 Sessional Papers :— Sessional paper of the Legislati Assembly, No OOo, 1889..... Sessional paper of the Legislative Assembly, No. 226, 1889.,.: Speoifloation : — Specification of the work to be done to make $20,000 per mile ' Statements — Statement of account between the Uuion Bank and Mr. J.C.LaQgelier Statement of account between the Union Bank and Mr. Pacaud Statement of account between the Union Bank. Savings branch and Mr. Pacaud Statement of account between Mr i'acaud and the Banque du Peunl from the 6th May to the 3rd of June Statements mentioning the amounts and expiration of the notes of Messrs Carrier, Carrel, Dechene and I. Tarte ^ 4 •Statement of account of the Banque Nationale with Mr. Pacaud.... ^?'^^'&^*^^:*- ri 1070 Alphabetical list of exhibits produced ALPHABETICAL LIST OP EXHIBITS PRODUCED SUBJECT. No. Date of document. Statements :— Continued. Statement of account with Banque Nationale Statement of accoant with Hon. H Hercier Statement of account with Banque du Peuple Statement of account with Union Banl£ Statement of the Merchants Bank.... Statemer *; No. 6by E. Pacaud. money remaining in hand of the J100,000. Statement of estimates of rail- way subsidies for the year 1891 1892 Statement of Ernest Pacaud's ac- counts with the Union Bank from the 30th April to the 13th August. Statements of payments made on account of the $280 '00 Statement of payments made on oons Statement showing the cost of the first 60 miles signed by A. Leduc. Statement of work done by contrac- tors on the first twenty miles, on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and tth sec- tion of 10 miles each and on the sections K. L. M. N Statement showing a bal. of $345,- 360 59 in favor of Mr. Armstrong Statements of amounts remitted to Mr. Langelier by Mr. Pacaud Total of Mr. Pacaud's account with the Merchants Bank Statement concerning the payment of $100,000 r Subsidies :— Railway Subsidies for the year 1891. 92.— See also " Lists.".... 8&-86a 87 88-880 S9-89a 90 91 94 100 161 162 177 181a to 181^/ 183 194 196 207 58 15th " 15th " 14th May, 1891.. 8th Sept., 1891. 8th " 8th " 15th " 15th " 16th " , .. 15th " 22nd October, 1891., 22nd " 29th August, 1891., 23rd " 23rd " 30th December, 1891... 6th July 1891. Printed at page. Cited at page. 916, 916 917 918, 925 930, 932 933 933 406 940 979 990 378 379 383 393 395 399 483 663 663 706 710 713 731 743 794 SUBJB Telegrams .— Telegram from Er Hon. George Ir Telegram ff?™ , strong to Mr. » Mr. Armstrong Telegram fromM respecting rail Telegram from A respecting rail Telegram Armsl pectin g visit York Telegram J- J- asking him t York Telegram from —ditto Telegram from —ditto Telegram fron Pacaud to a Telegram froi Pacaud su] telegram... Telegram frc Hon.P. Oai to represen Telegram frc Marcoux c Transfers :- Transfer ar Armstron leurs rwli Notarial co to the Ui N. P., fo Transfer a] des Chal 0. N. A) 378 379 383 393 390 488 663 663 700 710 713 731 748 794 Telegrams •— Telegram from Ernest Paoaud to the ^ Hon. George Irvme Telegram ^-^ p^.^.u^d^rceSl ^ r A^suong-r^^it to Quebec. 72 Telegram fromMcDonaldtoPa^aud,! respecting railway Telegramfrom Armstrong to Pacandl^ respecting railway York m, .nil J McDonald to Pacaud, "^tfingWm-tomeethiminNew-l ^ York Telegram from Armstrong to Pacaudl^ —ditto Telegram from Armstrong to Paoa"'! ^^ —ditto telegram Xramfow ;— ■ r.nr.r.»p«^ ■■" '"' N.P.,fo'^*3'<'^^-"^ 0. N. Armstrong 13th March, 1891 40 2lBt September, 1891.. 361 13th March, 1891 367 367 nth March, 1891 367 2Ut ' 371 14th April, 1891 373 16th " 373 Uth August, 1891 404 15th 27th April, 1891.. Uth " • 28th April, 1891 18th August, 1891. 8th July, 1888 404 658 624 637 661 705 ^../i^-