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 4 5 6 
 
^ 
 
 
 ^Ucctio/v 
 
 -9 
 
 
 tliun 
 

 b-i^^i 
 
 SPEECHES 
 
 f 
 
 OP 
 
 m:r. r>ECos]VEo© 
 
 ON 
 
 De IIORSEY'S report, trade of BRITISH COLUMBIA, 
 
 AND 
 
 -r] 
 
 MONEY PAID TO BRITISH COLUMBIA. 
 
 ■:o: 
 
 HANSARD REPORT* 
 
 (^Corrected.) 
 
 HOUSE OP COMMONS. 
 
 Mvnday, Feb., ISth, 1878. 
 
 BlUTISH COLUMBIA TERMINUS OF 
 THE PACIFIC UAIIiWAY. 
 
 MOTION rOR RErOBTA AM) 0ORIlKSk>0XUEN'CE. 
 
 Mn. DkCOSMOS moved for a com- 
 of any reports in possoswion of too 
 (iovornmeiit niivlc in 1S77 l>y Admiral 
 Do Horsoy respecting l!io port or portH 
 most united for a torminii!* of the Qaua- 
 dian Pacifie R:iilv/ay in British 
 Columbia, with a eopy of any oorres- 
 pondenco rospectinj^; the wimo with the 
 Imperial (Jovernment. He f^aid ho 
 was awaro that the Admiral in com- 
 mand of Tier MajoHly's sqnadi'on on 
 
 the Pacific had been invited by the 
 Admiralt}', and he did not donbt by 
 the (jovernmcnt of this Dominion, to 
 make a jiersonal enquiry as to the port 
 or ports most suitable for the terminus 
 of the Pacific Kailway on the Pacific 
 coast. He (Mr. DeCosmos) had given 
 notice of his motion lx;foro the report 
 of the hon. the Minister of Public 
 Works was sent down to the House. 
 He found that in that report no men- 
 tion whatever was made of an}- report 
 from Admiral Do Horsey. Ho had 
 reason to believe, before he lelt the 
 Province of British Columbia, that a 
 copy of that report had been forwarded 
 to this Government. If they turned 
 to the report of Mr. Fleming, 
 Chief Engineer of the Canadian 
 Pad tic Railway, issued in 
 spring or sunimor of last 
 thoy found that reports ha<l 
 
 the 
 
 year, 
 
 boon 
 
 received and condensed from diflTorent 
 
r 
 
 X. *'* 
 
 r 
 
 J 
 
 2 
 
 oMcors of Hor MnjoHtv's Navy who hml 
 boon on duly on tho North-WoNt ooant, 
 but thoro wart not a single mention 
 mado ol" any seajmrt on Vancouver 
 Island UH tho tciininuH. Admiral do 
 Horsey having communicated his 
 report, as ho (Mr. DeCowmoH) was 
 informed, to tho Imperial Government, 
 and to tliis Government also, ho row 
 aoked that, before tlio great question of 
 tho Pacific Itailway was taken up by 
 this lIouKC, they shou!*! have laid 
 boforo them a complete co])y of tliis 
 report, and not as they had last year, 
 an emasculated report, or reports 
 taken from tho reports sent by Her 
 Majesty's officers to tho Admiralty, 
 in England. The importance oi 
 selecting tho best place on tho I'acilic 
 coast was so great that tho House 
 required the very best information that 
 could bo gathered on the suhject, and 
 if it were not so late, he would endea- 
 vour to occupy the attention of tho 
 House, for half an hour, in showing 
 both tho domestic commerce and the 
 foreign commerce of tho J'acitic 
 Ocean with the American States 
 and territories contiguous to tho 
 western terminus of theCentral I'acilic 
 Hallway. Hut ho would reserve his 
 romai'ks on that suhject for a future 
 day, when he hoped the JIouso would 
 have more opportunity to listen to 
 statistical information, as to the trans- 
 Pacific and trans-continental trade 
 which was now being dor.o at San 
 Francisco. 
 
 Mr. TUPPER said ho would take 
 tho opportunity to ask the First Min- 
 ister when the House might ho]jo to 
 receive tho ro))ort of tho Kngiiieer on 
 the Canadian Pacific JJailway. 
 
 Mr. MACKENZIE said the iion. 
 gentleman would find that there was 
 u considerablo report in thelieportof 
 tho Public Works l)o|)artmont which 
 had been presented to the House. Tho 
 report of Mr. Cambie and tiic Heport of 
 Ml'. Marcus Smith wore there. Mr. 
 Cambie was the oflicer charged with 
 the survey in British Columbia during 
 tho year, and the report of Mr. Smith 
 was a m<jrc general I'oport. 
 
 Ma. TUPPEJt : Is it intended that 
 we should not receive any further re- 
 ]iiort on the subject before we are called 
 
 upon to deal with tho question of tho 
 route of tlio railway. 
 
 Mr. MACKKNZIE said ho was not 
 awaic at the moment of any further 
 report until the Government received 
 tho complete report of Mr. Cambie, 
 with the maps, etc., and he was not 
 aware if th;it gentleni:iii*would have 
 anything in aiidilion to dofl with, W 
 tiiere was anything i'lirthei* that it was 
 possible to bring down, it would 
 1)0 Itrought down. Tho jmper to 
 which his hon. friend behind him (Mr. 
 HeCosmos) referred, had come in very 
 lately from England as a document 
 communicated to tho Governmeiit, and 
 it would bo Itrought down as soon as 
 possible. 
 
 ^lotion (hjn'eil t". 
 
 TIl.MtK AM) COMMKRCK OF BRITISH 
 (.'OLUMin.\. 
 
 MOTIO.V KOIl nETCRN.4. 
 
 Mr. DkCOSMOS moved for a return, 
 showing the receipts for Customs and 
 Excise in Hritish ("olumbia for tho si.\ 
 months ending on December .'Jlst last; 
 also, a return of tho Customs and 
 Excise collected on Stickino llivcr for 
 the same period ; also, a return of tho 
 imports a^id exjMirts of the said Pro- 
 vince for the same period; al.so, u 
 return showing the imports into tho 
 said Province of all merchandise, duty 
 free or subject to Customs or Excise, 
 from tho other Provinces of tho 
 Dominion, from and including 1871 to 
 ;{lst December, 1877, setting forth tho 
 respective quaiuities and values the 
 production and gmwtli of Canada. Ho 
 said thv) first of these returns would no 
 doubt be very brief, but it was 
 desirable, in some rcsjiccts, to ave 
 before tho House. So far as returns 
 ill reference to the Stickino, were con- 
 cerned, he thought it was important 
 that the House should know something 
 about them. He was not aw) ro that 
 they had anything about tho trade of 
 that river in tho returns before the 
 House. As to tho last ])art of 
 his motion, he thought it would 
 bo interesting to have something 
 showing tho Interproviniial trade be- 
 tween jirilish Columbia and the other 
 Provinces of tho Dominion, and ho did 
 not see that any objection could be 
 
 Mu. Di 
 bowing 
 paid to tl 
 umbia, at 
 coixlancc 
 37, of the 
 so, ho r;ii 
 tho Hoib 
 jterfornnit 
 on tho 
 of the I 
 enfail.'d i 
 Colli nilpi;i 
 onler (Im( 
 in brin„'iii 
 
of tlio 
 
 mH not 
 lurther 
 I'coivcJ 
 Juinbic, 
 pas not 
 
 (1 llftVO 
 
 iih. ir 
 
 it it was 
 woul<l 
 ipor to 
 lim (Mr. 
 in very 
 jciiment 
 cnt, antl 
 I soon as 
 
 IRITISH 
 
 u return, 
 tom» and 
 r the six 
 51 St last; 
 mn and 
 lUivor for 
 jrn of the 
 Iwiid Pio- 
 also, u 
 into iho 
 iso, duty 
 lvs^.'i^<o, 
 of the 
 
 r ISTl to 
 
 forth the 
 iluos the 
 ada. lie 
 would no 
 i I was 
 to avo 
 returns 
 vore con- 
 mportant 
 •niolhinj; 
 w! ro that 
 trade of 
 )efore the 
 liart of 
 t would 
 omething 
 trado he- 
 the other 
 uid ho did 
 coultl he 
 
 I 
 
 ofTorotl hy any niemherof th<< 'iovern- 
 mc'it, or un^' member of the lldu.so. 
 
 Mr. BURPKK (St. John) naid the 
 firHt part of the return eonld hi' supplied 
 to the hon. nicmher quite j-ea<lily, l^ut 
 he feared the last part could not. There 
 had been no account kept between the 
 difforont Provinces since Confederation, 
 and there wi's nothini^ to show the 
 trade between them. 
 
 Mit. DeCO.'^MOS said he thought 
 the hon. the .Miiii.-ler of ('ustoms 
 would be able to get the necessary in- 
 formation, from the f:ut that all mer- 
 chandize was passed in Iwnd ovo«" the 
 Pacific Railway ; therefore, the iK)rtH 
 throuf^h which merchandize was passed 
 to Mritish Columbia would be able 
 to Hupply the information. He hoped 
 the Government would allow the mo- 
 tion to pass, because he thouf^ht it was 
 i\ matter of great imi>ortanco. 
 
 Mr. MACKKNZIK: We will try. 
 
 Motion agro'.d to. 
 
 JIOUSK OK COMMOXS. 
 
 Tue»(hnj, VMU Feb., 187S. 
 
 The Speaker took the Chair at Three 
 o'clock. 
 
 Prayers. 
 
 .MO.VEV PAID TO BRITISFI CI)M:MIUA. 
 
 MOTIO.N ron niCTCHN'. 
 
 Mr. DeCOSMOS moved tor a return 
 howing the respective sums of money 
 paid to the (Jovernmentof Hiitish Col- 
 umbia, and at what time ])aid, in ac- 
 cordance with section 2, chap. 17, N'ic 
 3T, of the Statutes of ('anada. In doing 
 so, ho haid he wished to bring before 
 the House the fact tliat, by the non- 
 jterformance of their ugrcemont 
 on the part of the ttovernment 
 of (he Dominion, there had been 
 entail. >d upon the Province tif Ih-itish 
 ('oIunil>i;i a loss of some 8-T-,r)()0. In 
 oi'dop (hat the House might follow him 
 in bringing to tUcir notice this equit- | 
 
 able claim, ho took occnaion to state 
 that in 1873 ho was the Pi-emior of the 
 Province of British Columbia, lie found 
 that the Province was not in a condi- 
 tion to invite immigrants to come and 
 settle in the coutitr}'. The oi-dinary and 
 current revenue of the Province was 
 only sufticiont to meet the ordinary and 
 current expenditure. In order, there- 
 fore, to prepare that country, in the 
 intercHts of the Dominion, to receive 
 population from abroad, and thereby 
 contritiute to the revenues and the build- 
 ing up of the country, it w:w decided 
 tluit he should go to the Government 
 of the Donnnion, and, if nocoss:4ry, to 
 the Imperial (iovernment and the 
 capitalists of Great Britain, to rait-e a 
 loan of some million of dollars to make 
 surveys, and open un colonization roads 
 through the accessible portion of that 
 Province. In the autumn of 1873 ho 
 arrived in this Province, some three 
 or four weeks bc<bro Parliament met in 
 extra Session, lie placetl himself in 
 communication with the Government 
 of that dry. He told that Government 
 that the Provincial (rovernment wanted 
 a million of dollars or less, — may bo 
 8.500,000 or 8(JOO,000. The Minister of 
 Finance of that da}- was absent in Eng- 
 land, jdacing the bonds of the Domin- 
 ion upon the London market. Ho 
 opened negotiations through the hon. 
 the then Minister of Public Works 
 (Mr. Langevin) with respect to this 
 loan. When the Minister of Finance 
 returned from Kngland, — as the loan 
 could not be conclude<l with the 
 Dominion (Jovernment until he had 
 returned, — it was arranged that the 
 Province of British Columbia should 
 draw on application the sum between 
 the allowed debt and the actual debt of 
 the Province at the date of Union, as 
 incrcjised by the Act increasing the 
 debts of the respective Provinces in 
 1873. In order that the House might 
 follow him in this matter, he would 
 read the (^rder in Council that w.is 
 passed b}' the Dominion .Dvernmont 
 of that da}', respecting tl matter: 
 
 " In ft memorandum, dated )th Oct., 1873, 
 from the hon. the MiniBter of Financo, siih- 
 mittinj; an application from Mr. DeCogmos on 
 behalf of the Government of British Columbia, 
 askinjir that the Dominion mar advance for 
 local improvements a gum equiii to the diflTer- 
 cnre bolwcen the actual debt of the Province 
 and the debt allowed at the Union, such 
 advADoe to be at tbo rate of 5 per cent , to b« 
 
 14Gii(S;t 
 
m 
 
 ■eciirotl 11)11111 ilio 8iil)3iily, mid to be rr|inid \)y 
 a Sinking Fund,— 
 
 "The Minister slfttes timt he considers it 
 iiKXpedient that l!in Dominion OoTernment 
 Hhould iindertnke a loan on the terms Bpeciticd ; 
 but that there i^ no doubt that if the Province 
 washes to enter upon local imnroTementti and 
 borrow money for the purpose, it could be done 
 on more favo'urable terms in the manner pro- 
 posed than l)y jirocurlnn a loKn elsewhurc ; and 
 he 8U(;frests that tlie sam< object can be (rained 
 in another way, which would bo quite lepiti- 
 mate : That the exocas of the debt allowed 
 over that outstau'ling at the diite of the Union 
 is in fact a debt if the Dominion, upon which 
 it has to pay five per cent, annually on the 
 subsidy, and that there can be no objection to 
 the Dominion, if it thinks proper, redecniiiif; 
 tins debt by paying the money totlio I'roviiice. 
 
 " The Minister, tlierefoie, recommends that 
 authority be given to advance to the Uorern- 
 ment of British Columbia, f.)r local improve- 
 ments, such sums, from time to time, as may 
 be applied for, to be charged against the debt 
 of the Province to the extent of the amount 
 by which that debt fulls short of the dbbt 
 allowed. Should the Provincial Qovcrnment 
 at any time wish to refund any portion of the 
 advances so made, the refund, the Minister 
 observes, would, on the same principle, bo 
 credited to the debt. 
 
 "The Committee concur in the foregoing 
 recommendations, and submit the same for 
 your Excellency's approval.' 
 
 llo (lesiied to dirccl tho ])arlicular 
 jittontioii of tho JIi^iiso to tho woixl.s, 
 " sneh Hum or Hums its may IVom time 
 to time btMip])licil for." I'hoi'o wn.s no 
 promise or suggestion whatever that 
 there would bo any influence brouj^ht 
 to boar at^ninnt or any exception taken 
 to any application made by tho 
 Province of British Columbia to 
 take ovor tho ditt'oronco between 
 tho actual and tho allowed debt. 
 They had, thoroforo, tho fact that, 
 when the late Administration retire<i 
 from office, there wiw an arrangement 
 made by tho Province of IJritish 
 Columbia with tho Dominion to 
 obtain for surveys, n ads, and bridges, 
 &c., tho means for opening up that 
 oxtonHivo Province, an arrangement by 
 which n large Biim of money — nearly a 
 million (lollars— might be obtained 
 from tho Dominion at a lower rato of 
 interest than the Province could obtain 
 it elsowliore. Shortly alUn- Parlia- 
 ment met, the Ministiy of tho day 
 resigned. His mission was not merely 
 to tho Dominion Governmont, but 
 it extended also to England, with 
 regard to tho Graving-dock. Before 
 ])roceeding to England, he thought it 
 would bo wise on his part to obtain 
 a confirmation, from the prcsont 
 (iovorninont, of the arrangemoutB with 
 
 respect to tho advanco or loan. He 
 did so, and ho (Mr. DcCosmos) had tho 
 atilhority in a letter from tho Prime 
 \iinister, in which ho agreed to make 
 that advance. Tho letter was as 
 follows : — 
 
 " OxTAW.t, Ith Nov., IST.l. 
 
 " Mv Dear Sir, — Your projKJfuI to the 
 Dominion (Jovornmeut rcspectm); tlie pay. 
 ineut to the Local Giiverninfnt of lintisii 
 Colnniliin ot encii sums n« may be iiiplicil 
 lor from time to limo, to be cx|Kntl«l cui 
 local iinprovoinciitH (o be cliarjieil against 
 the debt of tlie Provimc, iinlil flu- sums po 
 advuiiccd will, with the existing; licbl, roach 
 tiie umouiit of the licbt allowed by tlie terms 
 of the Union, is one wliicli will require the 
 Banction o( Parliament. This being the 
 case, no absolute promise can bo given until 
 Purliament meeta. I see no serious objection, 
 liowovei, to the proposal, and we will submit 
 a measure to Parlinnient to carry it into 
 efl'ect. 
 
 " I am, itc, 
 
 " A. Mackeszie." 
 
 The House had then before it the fact 
 that tho lato Government and the 
 present Government of tho Dominion, 
 with a view, he bcliovod, at that time 
 of advancing tho interests of Canada, 
 and the Province of British Columbia 
 in particular, had agreed to advanco 
 tho money at a lower rate of interest 
 than it could bo obtained elsewhere, 
 and in tho same way as tho Dominion 
 had obtained guarantees for its bonds 
 from the date of Ccnfedo; ation from 
 tho Imperial Ctovornmont. The House 
 had tho fact before it that this and the 
 latotJovernmcnt hiul agreed to advanco 
 the dit!erenco between the actual and 
 allowed debt. Tho next question aris- 
 ing was what was tho difference 
 between tho actual and allowed debt? 
 The actual debt of JJritish Columbia at 
 •ho time of the Union was $1,000,405 ; 
 the allowed debt, increased by the A<-t of 
 1873, was $l,n4«,284. T'le <lifteronco 
 between tho actual and allowed debt in 
 1873-4 was $945,878. And the agree- 
 ment for tho advanco of money, in the 
 nature of a loan, with a right of repay- 
 ment of tho w^holo or any portion, 
 covoretl this amount. The next point 
 was as to tho Statute. In order to carry 
 out that agreement, chap. 17, 37 Vic. 
 was enacted, tho 2iid section of which 
 read as follows : — 
 
 "The Governor in Council may, in hie 
 discretion, advaiute from time to time to any 
 Province of Canada, auch sums as may be 
 
 I 
 
 reriiiirni, 
 vince, an 
 amount I 
 for whicli 
 sliort <d 
 was hUov 
 vaiioes to 
 tliol'rovi 
 to rojiay I 
 such Hi'iii 
 tlie Domi 
 Province 
 repaid be 
 province 
 to it." 
 
 That sec 
 to inclu 
 Columbi 
 Dominie 
 negotiati 
 minion C 
 talking I 
 tho actu 
 Province 
 novelty, 
 sidcratioi 
 might bo 
 the Doni 
 its influe 
 tho Prov 
 to the 
 point to 
 was this 
 tions bet 
 tho Dom 
 it was ag 
 applied 
 paid ovei 
 ment, an 
 On en<ji 
 »<blo to 
 to tho P 
 amountci 
 further si 
 1875-H, 
 afnn- 'St 
 When tho 
 plio<l f^M- 
 properly- 
 ornment, 
 filment of 
 DoC'osmo^ 
 Govornmt 
 lirst appli 
 ernraent m 
 8180,000 
 expended 
 «2r,0,000 I 
 cxpenditu 
 Dominion 
 vance th:i 
 
 i 
 
8 
 
 .. IIo 
 
 liad the 
 
 Priino 
 
 () mnko 
 
 ivas ftrt 
 
 , lS-3. 
 
 1 to the 
 the imy- 
 I' HntiHh 
 • upi>li<'il 
 •iidcd <iii 
 
 8U11IS CO 
 
 '111, roiutli 
 llu' terms 
 rjiiirc llie 
 ifing ll>e 
 ivfn until 
 objection, 
 ill Hiibniit 
 y it into 
 
 ESZIE. 
 
 tho fuel 
 
 und the 
 
 ominion, 
 
 [lat time 
 Cftnudii, 
 
 Columbia 
 advance 
 
 I intorcHt 
 rtcwhore, 
 
 )ominion 
 tH lK)nd8 
 on from 
 10 House 
 and the 
 advance 
 tual and 
 (ion urirt- 
 itVorent'O 
 lhI debt? 
 umbift at 
 ,000,405 ; 
 the Act of 
 lirteronco 
 d debt in 
 i(> ngreo- 
 oy, in tho 
 f ropay- 
 portion, 
 ext point 
 •r to carry 
 7. 37 Vic. 
 ol which 
 
 nuiy, in l«i» 
 time toanT 
 aa may be 
 
 required, (or lo*iil iinprovemeiilH in the Pro- 
 vince, ami not excee<iine, in the wlinle, the 
 amount by which tiie (lebt of the Province 
 for which Canada in reNpotiHible tlien fnilH 
 idiort ol (he debt with which the Province 
 WHB allowed to enter the Union — such ad- 
 vancef) to Ik; dceined additions to the debt ol 
 Ihel'rovinc! , .vilh iiermisMion totiie Province 
 to re|iay thrii to Cfunaila, on niich ncitice, in 
 Huch sums and on sucii oilier coiuIitioiiH lo* 
 the Dominion (iovtriiment und iliat ol the 
 Province may airree n\Mn ; niiy amount ho 
 repaid being deducted from the debt of the 
 province in calculating the (iubsidy payable 
 to it." 
 
 That Hoclion was intended not niorciy 
 to include tho Province of Krilibih 
 Columbia, but every Province in tho 
 Dominion. When he opened thofo 
 negotiations with the present Do- 
 minion Ciovernmcnt, lor tho purpose of 
 takin<> over tho difference between 
 tho actual and allowed debt of that 
 Province, tho proposal seemed to l)e a 
 novelt}-, but on ])assing it under con- 
 .sideration it was discovered that it 
 ' might be an advantaj^e, not merely to 
 the Dominion (iovernment, to extend 
 ': its influence in that manner throuj^h 
 ! tho Provinces, but a great advantage 
 I to tho Provinces tnomsolvoH. The 
 point to bo observed in that matter 
 I was this : that, owing to the nogotia- 
 i tions between tiio two (rovevnments, 
 ] tho Dominion and British Columbian, 
 I it was agreed that, when tho Province 
 applied for tho mono}', it was to bo 
 paid over to the Provincial (iovern- 
 ment, and that without qualification. 
 1 On en(iuiry, so far as i>o was 
 i riblo to gather, the amount paid 
 ■ to tho Province of Hritish Columbia, 
 ; amounted to 8180,2.'')8 in 1874-5, and a 
 ! further sum ot Jl.'iOjOOO was paid in 
 f 1875-H, and charged subsequently 
 I age- 'St tho debt of the I'rovince. 
 When the Provincial Government ap- 
 '. plioii for the money, they were not 
 I propcrl}' met by the Dominion Ciov- 
 i ornment, and there was no prompt tul- 
 ; tilmentof the bargain which he (Mr. 
 DoCosmos) had made with the present 
 : Government and its predecessor. Tho 
 , first application to 'ho ])roHont Gov- 
 ernment wa.s for the sum of $4^S'J,1.')0. 
 I 8180,000 out of that amount hml been 
 1 expended, and tho Province wanted 
 i 82r)0,000 more, to meet the additional 
 expenditure on its public works. Tho 
 i Dominion Government refused to ad- 
 ' vunco that amount. Stated briefly, 
 
 Iho Province roccivo»l from the proson* 
 (iovornment $189,000, and was refused 
 8250,000. Tho question would natur- 
 ally arise as to why the I)ominion 
 (tovornmont, whose word ought to bo a 
 word of honour, refusc<l to carry out 
 (heir agroemeiii. If there wore good 
 and sufficient rcnsons why they should 
 not cany it out, he believed tho 
 House and the country would he pre- 
 ])arcd to endorse their refusal. But, as 
 far as he had examined the facts of iho 
 case, he found there was no good and 
 sufficient jcason why they shouM have 
 iclu.scd, and particularly so as tho 
 (iovernment of British Columbia was 
 engaged in opening up that vast 
 country, and in doing so was opening 
 up a part of tho torritory of (Janada 
 over which it had jurisdiction. But, if 
 they traced the matter to the bottom, 
 he believed the true reason for refusing 
 to honour their pledge would be found 
 to bo a desire on tho part of the Do- 
 minion Government to check-mate the 
 then Government of British Columbia, 
 lod by Mr. Walkem ; in other words, to 
 embarrass the Provincial Government 
 financially, in order, if possible, 
 to bring tliem under tho influ- 
 ence of the Federal Government. It was 
 open to tho (iovernment to explain 
 that statement, and if they could by 
 any possible means explain aw.iy tho 
 reasons which were popularly given 
 in that Province for the refusal, no one 
 would bo happier to accord them full 
 credit and release them from the 
 charge of having attempted to embar- 
 rass the Government of that Province 
 than ho would be. It must be reniotri- 
 Iwied that the demand for 8431>,150 
 was n>ado in April, May or .luno, 1875. 
 If tho Dominion (iovernment had been 
 without funds, or had had large claims 
 coming duo which would prevent it 
 fi-om fulfilling that agreement, there 
 might havo been some excuse; but. 
 when ho turned to the Sessional papers 
 and to the statement of tho assets and 
 liabilities of the Dominion in tho Public 
 Accounts, ho found that, at tho end of 
 June, 1875, which was tho end of the 
 financial year, there was to the credit 
 of tho Dominion, in British and Canu- 
 ian bRnk8,and other places $10,402,580 ; 
 in other wonls, a month or two 
 after the $400,000 and tnld wore 
 asked for by tbo Provincial Govern- 
 
ment, il wiih foiiiul, by n rotiirn laid 
 boforo tho House, that 9l0,462,58(i wiim 
 Net down by tho MiniHturofFinanco an 
 tho money assolK of tlii« Doininiun. 
 AgaiiiHt that tlicy found liabililieH duo 
 tu othor lianku amounting to nearly 
 ♦2,150,752, leaving a nurpl'.is to tlio 
 credit of tbo Domini<»n (iovernniont, at 
 tho bankn, of $8,H1 1,834. Ilo put it lo 
 the IIouHO whollior the Ciovornmont 
 could Ik) juHtitied, from what they 
 know at present, in refusing to fuMil 
 it« obligation to tho Province of Uritish 
 Columbia, when tho Dominion had 
 nearly nine million dollars to its credit 
 at its bankers ? lie had called tho at- 
 tention of the House to the fact that 
 tho money was to be paid to British 
 Columbia, when applied for. It was 
 to bo ob8oi*vod that tho money was 
 to bo paid from time to time. There 
 was no question that tho nego- 
 ciations which had taken place between 
 himself, on behalf of British Columbia, 
 and tho present and tho late fJovern- 
 ments in regard to tho advan(;o of tho 
 ditTcrcnco between its actual and 
 allowed debt constituted a Itond fide 
 agreement between the partios. lle- 
 membering that there had been a Imnd 
 fide agreomont entered into — for that 
 amount of money had been contracted 
 by tho Dominion Govornmont to be 
 paid to tho Province, what did they 
 next find ? The report of tho Committeo 
 of tho Privy Council, approved on 20lh 
 May, 1875, showed tho following : 
 
 " Dpon the application of tho Oorcrnment 
 of British Columbia for the dim of (439,150, 
 whereof $250,000 is asked for on account of 
 the Graving Dock, tho remainder for local 
 improrcments, the whole to be advanced in 
 accordance with the prorisions of Vict. 37, 
 cap. 17. 
 
 '' The Hon. tho Minister of Finance, to whom 
 this application has been referred, obsorrei), 
 in a Report dated 19th Maj', 1875, that, with 
 respect to the sum asked for the construction 
 of the (iraring Dock, certiHcates of progress 
 of work are required by the Terms of the Act, 
 and tiiat such certificates have not, so far as he 
 is aware, been firnished by tho Oovernmont 
 of British Columbia 
 
 " With respect to tho remaining advances, 
 he further observes that it is entin-ly optional 
 Willi the Qovernment of the Dominion to 
 adr.ince any sums on said account ; and, ina.i- 
 raucli as inconTenience may arise if expenditure 
 should bo underuken in any of the ProTinces, 
 under the impression that the Local Gov.-iii- 
 mentH or Legislatures are at liberty to draw at 
 pleasure for the balance of debt referred to in 
 said Act, he suggests that the Recretary of 
 State be directecTto notify the local authorities 
 of the sereral Proriaces that the consent of 
 
 the Uorernmentof Canada miiit)»« expressly 
 obtained before any advance on account of 
 local improvements, as ipecllied iu the above 
 Act, is authorized ; but that the sum of $199,150 
 having been spent by the (/olumhia Govern- 
 ment, it is recommended that this sum be 
 paid. 
 
 " The Committee concur in the foregoing 
 Report, and submit the same for Vuur Excel- 
 lency's approval." 
 
 lie might remark, with rc'^oroiice to 
 the closing ])ortion of tho second 
 soctioti of tho report of the Committee 
 of tho Privy Council, that the $250,000 
 referred to was not asked for in aid of 
 tho construction of the (Jraving Dock, 
 but for an entirely ditforcnt object. 
 From that document they di.scovorod 
 that the present Dominion (Jovornment 
 refused to carry out tho obligation 
 they had entered itito with tho Pro- 
 vince of British Columbia, and they 
 endeavoured to mako British Columbia, 
 when it had entered into a special 
 agreement under two (lovornments, 
 occupy a similar jiosition to a Province 
 that had made no agreement whatever. 
 In the next place, they found that, on 
 tho 4th February, 187ti, Mr. Langton, 
 tho Auditor-General, wrote a.s follows: 
 
 "i" am directed lo advim' you tliiit tlip 
 f 150,000 was (li(*tinctly roluwd a« uii advance 
 u);ainst dcht, but it is grniited uh an udvuncc 
 against nubsidieH." 
 
 From this they discovered a second re- 
 fu.sal on the part of tho (Jovernmont a 
 3'ear later, to do what they agreed to 
 do in the autumn of 187ii. Now ho 
 presumed that tho House might gather 
 some fair information of the state of 
 this case. In tho lirst pbue, the Pro- 
 vincial (Jovornment had agreed with 
 the Dominion Government for an ad- 
 vaiuo equal to (he amount l)otwcen tho 
 actual and the allowed debt ; that the 
 Provincial (iovernment applied for 
 $4;i!M50 to tho Dominion Govornmont, 
 which was refuswl, and (hat the Do- 
 minion (rovoinment had tho sum of 
 $.•^,000,000 or «'J, 000,000 in its Treasury 
 at its commund, some of which was 
 drawing interest and some of which 
 was not drawing interest, and yet they 
 refii-etl to carry out a solemn agroo- 
 tnont with that Province. Before he 
 ])roceoded further to show the loss of 
 money entailed upon that Province by 
 tho violation and, as he took it, tho 
 deliberate violation of tho agreement 
 with that Province by the Dominion 
 Government, ho would again call tho 
 
 nU^ntio 
 this Go' 
 
 to Britii 
 laxatior 
 terms o 
 the two 
 and un i 
 tho Kxe 
 ernmeni 
 ho repe 
 — that t 
 the Doi 
 
 I 'Iff to 
 
 ■ had ag 
 
 the L(K 
 
 Cobimbi 
 
 , and that 
 
 i tloclarati 
 
 existing 
 
 j in Oppot 
 
 I keep the 
 
 ' cial artai 
 
 decent la I 
 
 at ion. 'J 
 
 this was 
 
 British C 
 
 had bef< 
 
 ; for the (i 
 
 I this vie\\ 
 
 i factory r 
 
 I the Hon 
 
 ■ loss (i)0 
 
 ; on the 
 
 ■ bia. J 
 
 had laig 
 : respect t( 
 j ment on 
 
 ■ sequent!^ 
 .' money t* 
 
 the Dom 
 ] advance t 
 { (Jovernm 
 j banks anc 
 I to raise e 
 ' liabilities 
 i eight per 
 I and thai 
 I ment hat 
 I Treasury 
 I fulfil its a 
 I simply til 
 I ernmont, 
 I having to 
 icont. tho( 
 foight per 
 cent. Tl 
 placing it 
 lioved tha 
 "ent. mor 
 
 1 
 
1 
 
 cxprfMl.r 
 cooiint of 
 ,h« nhoTo 
 f $189,1 60 
 k Oo»ern- 
 I lum be 
 
 foreKninj; 
 )ur Ekcel- 
 
 roiico to 
 I hocoiul 
 )mniittcH» 
 (!;25O,0()O 
 
 ill iii<l of 
 \fT Dock, 
 t object . 
 iHCOVorod 
 irornmont 
 •^ligation 
 
 Iho Pro- 
 niiil thoy 
 Joluinl)ia, 
 a special 
 [>rnmont», 
 I Province 
 whntovor, 
 il that, on 
 
 Lnngton, 
 i3 follows : , 
 
 lU tlint the 
 lit) ailvanc<^ 
 an ailvunce 
 
 Hocond rc- 
 ornment a 
 i^jroetl to 
 Now ho 
 ht gftthor 
 Htttte of 
 the Prn- 
 rco'i with 
 or an iid- 
 jtwccn Iho 
 that tho 
 pliod for 
 vornmont, 
 at the Do 
 10 Hum of 
 -iTrt-aHiiry 
 v-hirh was 
 of which 
 I yet they 
 mn atjroo- 
 Bcloio ho 
 tl»o lo.iH of 
 rovinco l»j' 
 i)k it, tho 
 ii^rocmont 
 Dominion 
 ■lin cull tho 
 
 i( 
 
 utisntion of tho IIouno to tho fact that 
 thin (iovornnient had sent itH <lL>li>;;ate 
 to BritJNh Columbia to negotiate a re- 
 laxation of tho railway Hcclion of the 
 tcrmH of union. It so happened that 
 tho two (lOvornmi'ntH could not agree 
 nnd an appeal was miide to Kiigland by 
 tho Kxocutivo of tho Provincial Gov- 
 ernment. Ho took it, therefore — and 
 ho repeated again as he naid before 
 — that the whole and solo object of 
 the Dominion (iovernment in refus- 
 ing to advance tho money that It 
 had agreed to was to embarrasH 
 tho IxK-al fiovernment of British 
 t.'olumbia. They had no other object ; 
 and that in tho face of the repeutecl 
 declarations made on tho part ot the 
 existing (Jovernmont when a party 
 in Oppoisition : that they wished to 
 keep the federal distinct from provin- 
 cial affairs, and that they believed in 
 decentralization, instead of centraliz- 
 ation. This was his statement; and 
 this was tho view which tho people of 
 British Columbia took of it. As ho 
 had belore roniarko<l, it was open 
 for tho (iovernment to ex])lain away 
 this view, an<l to give them a satis- 
 factory reason for their conduct. Lot 
 tho House now see what jiecuniary 
 loss the (lovornmont had entailed 
 on tho Province of British Colum- 
 bia. At tho time the latter 
 had largo contracts let, and with 
 . respect to part of these contracts pay- 
 j mont on tnom had matured, and con- 
 1 sequonlly tho tJovernment wanted 
 : money to jmy the contractors; but 
 ': the Dominion Government refuseil to 
 \ advance tho money. Tho Provincial 
 ! Government then had to apply to tho 
 \ banks and outside capitalists in order 
 \ to raise enough money to meet their 
 i liabilities, and had to j)ay as high as 
 ; eight per cent. j»er annum for mone^' ; 
 I and that when the Dominion Govern- 
 I nient had enough money in its 
 I Treasury to spare for that object to 
 I fulfil its agreement. Tho result was 
 I simply this : that tho Provmcial Gov- 
 i ernmont, in round numbers, bad lost by 
 I having to b(»rrow money at eight per 
 I coiit. thodilferonco botwoon five and 
 I eight per cent, and that was throe per 
 jcont. The loss under that head, 
 placing it at a minimum— and he be- 
 lieved that it was more like 100 per 
 [cent, more than that — \\a» at least 
 
 $10,000. Tn order then to got rid of 
 their liabilities, thoy had to place 
 bonds in tho local market to tho 
 amount of 8350,000, and hypothecato 
 them to tide through that year. If 
 il was tho object of this Govern- 
 ment to embarrass tho Provincial 
 (iovernment of British Columbia, 
 tho former was successful, us tho 
 latter (Jovernmont was linanciall}' 
 cmbarrasseil. Tho Provincial Opposi- 
 tion having Ijoen tutored by agents at 
 Ottawa, or by the present Govornraont 
 at ()tta"a, or by writers from Ottawa, 
 tho agents of this Government in tho 
 Province of liritish Columbia wore 
 the lii-st to communicate the news to 
 tho public that tho Local (Jovernmont 
 was embarrassed in its finances, tho 
 Dominion Government having rofuse<l 
 to advance them anything more. 
 Havin • tided over the year 1875-<», 
 the existing (Jovcrnment of the Pro- 
 vince fotind it was compelled to pass an 
 Act to enable it to borrow $750,000 
 in tho Knglish money market. That 
 8750,000 was sold in tho market of Lon- 
 don at 5»G, and it cost one percent .for 
 commission ( Vide B.C., Dobates, April, 
 1877.) Tho loss, therefore, sus- 
 tained in selling at a diHCOunt tliose 
 8750,000, which the Province ought to 
 have received from tho Dominion 
 (jovernmont at five per cent., was 
 8:-i7,500. These bonds wore issued at 
 six per cent, to mature in thirty 
 years ; and that is ono per cent. 
 moro than the rate at which 
 the Dominion Government had 
 agreed to pass this money over to tho 
 Province. Ono per cent, over tho five 
 per cent.upon that amount was equal to 
 87,500 ; and, hence, during thirty 
 years, the I'rovince wuukl have to pay 
 that 87,500 annually. It would also 
 have paid at the end of thirty yorirs, 
 $225,000; and this amount the Pro- 
 vince of British C!olumbia would have 
 to pay to tho parties from whom it 
 borrowed, simply because this Govern- 
 ment refused to fulfil its bargain. 
 Moro than this: tho management, 
 ho took it, of tho Sinking Fund con- 
 nected with this 8750,000 loan, during 
 the coming thirty j-oars, would be at 
 least 810,000. And adding the extra in- 
 terest over five at eight por cent., 
 tho loss by discount on tho bonds 
 and the incroiusod interest for thirty 
 
yoai'H, ho found that thu luatinor in 
 which tho Dominion had trontod the 
 Province in thiH mutter, would ontail 
 11 1()8H on the Province of Briti.th 
 Columbia of i'IT2,5(iO. In other 
 words, tlint woh tlio cost to the Pro- 
 vince of BritiMh Colombiu, of havinj^ 
 this Federal (tovornmont engage in 
 what ho might regaiti as tho unholy 
 work of cnibarraNNing a Provincial 
 (Joverrmont. And not only did they 
 ontail u Iosh of $1:72,500 on tho Pn> 
 vinco, but tho Dominion alco, actually 
 and absolutely, lost the Hum of 8;^0,3U2 
 odd. Allow him tooxplain : — When thiH 
 advance was ngreed to by tho late 
 (jovornment. tho Finance ilir.i.ster had 
 juHt rotui-nod from Kngland whore ho 
 had Hold hiH bonds. Ho belio''od they 
 wore five per cent, bonds and command- 
 ed a premium of five per cont. Now, 
 paying off the ditferenco between tho 
 actual and the allowed debt of tho 
 Provinco, tho Dominion Government, 
 by floating its own five por cent, bonds 
 at five por cent, premium, would have 
 made $47,264. 
 
 Mb. CAETWRIGIIT : 1 may remark 
 to my hon. friend that they wore not 
 five por cent. bond8,but bonds raised on 
 the imperial Governracnt guarantee at 
 four per cent. 
 
 Mr. DeCOSMOS said tho hon. gen- 
 tleman would have his opportunity for 
 replying further on. lie, however, 
 thought that tho hon. gentleman, if he 
 referred to the money which was 
 obtained on Imperial guarantees and 
 (rovernment guarantees, would find 
 that both went off together, lie only 
 spoke from memory on thi.s poiiit 
 and was subject to correction. 
 This Government under pressure 
 had advanced, as ho had previously 
 stated, two sums, $189,238 and 
 $150,000; and tho money saved by 
 floating tho Dominion bonds at five por 
 cent, premium on tho amount of money 
 which was advanced by tho hon. the 
 Minister of Finance — the profit really 
 mado by tho Dominion Government in 
 this regard was $1(5,961. By refusing 
 to advance the further sum of $(>0<j,055, 
 tho Dominion Government lost the five 
 per cent, premium on that sum, and 
 that was a loss of $30,302. The aggre- 
 gate loss, therefore, of tho Dominion 
 Government and tho Provincial Gov- 
 ernment by the refusal to carry out the 
 
 agrooment mwio with the Provinco of 
 British (^'olumbia \>y tho Dominion 
 Government v/as $.'{02,802; and he 
 again repeated that this loss was niade 
 in tho face of a surplus in the TroaHury 
 of the Dominion, of $8,3n,8:{4. And 
 the loss to the Province of British 
 Columbia on llio sum of $272,500, 
 would bo si.K por cent. j)er annum 
 besides tho whole amount for over. 
 Probably his honourable friend tho 
 Finance Minister would bo able, 
 with his actuary, to find out what 
 tho total loss to the I'rovincoof British 
 Columbia would bo on that $272.50'" 
 for over. The intei-est on tho sum lost 
 by the Provinco of British Columbia 
 for ever by the refusal of this Govern- 
 ment to carry out its contract would l)o 
 equal to even one-twelfth of the total 
 annual subsidy received to-day by tho 
 1 •- 
 
 rovmco. 
 
 lie appealed to tho 
 House if some explanation — if a 
 full explanation was not required 
 and ought to bo given to the 
 country to show how this (rov- 
 ernment could justify the takingaway, 
 by its own deliberate act, ono-twelflh 
 of the subsidies guaranteed by the 
 Act of Union. lie had only out other 
 word to say ; and this was that, if there 
 was justice, if the equities of this 
 case wore heard by dispassionate gentle- 
 men, and if tho caso of British 
 Columbia in this matter was heai'd 
 and understood, tho Dominion Govern- 
 ment owed a debt — as indemnitj- — to 
 the J'rovince of British ('olumbia 
 approximating, in round numbers, to 
 nearly $300,000 ; and it would bo for 
 tho present Government, or their suc- 
 cessors, in due course of time, to pay 
 over to tho Province tho penalty of 
 their deliberate violation of the agree- 
 ment, that was in tho interest of both 
 the Province and the Dominion. ,. 
 
 Mil. CARTWBIGIIT said there could Jb,' all' ul 
 bo, of course, no objection whatever, to jmnossi M 
 tho hon. gentleman obtaining tho in iMiv.jp(.,> 
 formation ho required. The facts con- nHowin 
 doctod with it, so far as his memory hoy dosji 
 served him, were briefly theso : he be- i \\^^, ,.,,„(|j 
 lieved the hon. gentleman had correct- i )bvions t| 
 ly enough stated that, some time in tho !n";i<rcm(' 
 .Session of Oct()l)er, 1873, ho (Mr. ■ jj^"?,, nsmi 
 DoCosmos) raatio application to the ; arii'orous 
 lute Government to have an advance ,,j||'j',,„j^ ^ 
 mado in the form of which he spoke; : ,.(),^^ y^^ 
 and he had no doubt, that the hon 
 
 gontlei 
 
 (Jrderi 
 
 Govern 
 
 ad vail c 
 
 undersl 
 
 Week I 
 
 assumci 
 
 iiewed I 
 
 himself 
 
 enir;igei 
 
 but ho I 
 
 ' ticman 
 
 1 with th 
 
 hi.. 
 
 judgmei 
 (roveriit 
 a|)pli<'a( 
 merit;ir\ 
 probaMj 
 must, h<; 
 heiiMioii 
 man n|)|i 
 letter In 
 as at .'I 
 r)oCoMn. 
 meant, 
 undersfo 
 (Mr. .M:. 
 mean th 
 Col'iniiii; 
 
 to lu' cut 
 
 due noti( 
 
 to (he 
 
 the |i:iy 
 
 com pi i'; 
 
 had .igicM 
 
 were ]«] 
 
 w;is !|.i' 
 
 man ivi] 
 
 Vic, ly 
 
 see, ii ui 
 
 very oxct 
 
 these ;id\ 
 
 discretion 
 
 )roper 
 
 and on tli 
 
 (II 
 
);onll»>ni:»n luvd correctly quotod tlio 
 Ordor in Council nndor wlii'li tlio liifo 
 (tovcnimonl had c(Mi>.onto(ll(» nmkc tliut 
 julviii CO. llo (Mr. (/urtwrij^ht) 
 nndcr.^ioixl, llmt siiIko([ii -iiily, uIjuiI a 
 week tiflo* tho prosont (lovorninont 
 assunu'il offlfo, tlu* hoii. ^cMiticiniiii re- 
 newed liii* iippliciition, llo wiis not, 
 himsolf, in Ottiiwii at thiit liino, boin;; 
 onifiiijoil ir\ conduct injf \\\h oloction ; 
 l»ut lunuidorstond lliat tlio lion, ^on- 
 tlcrnan lind had some coininniiication 
 with tic hori, the I'romicr, \vhoa<lvi.><od 
 hii.. . ' tliftt occaHioii. III:.' in hi>< 
 judLjmoni it was not p)-*sil)lo lor tho 
 (rovornmont to oiitorlain any Hinh 
 applicntiuii without obtaining Parlia 
 mciitary sanction for -ucli advance, 
 proiiaMy in tho .■<li.i|(c, ol' an Aid. Ho 
 uuist. Iiowovor, correct llio ur-anpro- 
 hon^ion iin lor whiidi tho hon. L^ontlo- 
 nian appeared to labour ro;;ar 'ini; tho 
 lottci- liis h'lii. friend the Fir.si Minister 
 as at all implying what ho (Nfr, 
 DoCosin )s> appcar"d to concoivo it 
 meant. That letter <iid not, as ho 
 understood it, or as his hon. friend 
 (.Mr Nfackonzie) unilcr-Lood it, at all 
 moan that the Prov'i.co of liritish 
 Col'indMa, or any other Province, was 
 to Ih> t'lititlod, at its disi-rotion, without 
 du<' notice, to draw chcipies upon them 
 to tho extent of the whole amount of 
 the p;iymont unli(juidated. Now, in 
 conij)lianco with what his hon. friend 
 had ai,'roed to do, ainon;,' the Acts that 
 were pa.ssed at tho Session of 1874 
 was the Act to which this hon. gentle- 
 man icfeiroii. That was cap. 17, 37 
 V^ic, ly which, a.s tlu' House world 
 see, ii was expressly jtrovided, and tor 
 very excellent and <j;ood roanons, that 
 these advances should bo made at the 
 discretio?! of the (tovernment, upon 
 proper notice havin;^ been given, 
 an<l on their boin:^ convinced of tho 
 . ex|)edi. lie}' of the work. Tho reason 
 1 there could Jq,. n\i l\^■^^ ^yas obvious. It was quito 
 impossiolo that they should make this 
 
 rovinoo of 
 Dominion 
 ; und he 
 wurt n\ado 
 uTrettHury 
 8:»4. And 
 of British 
 
 8272,500, 
 )or annum 
 
 for over, 
 friend the 
 
 bo able, 
 
 out what 
 
 of BritiHh 
 It $272.50^ 
 ho Hum lost 
 II Columbiu 
 his Govorn- 
 ct would Imj 
 )f tho total 
 -day by tho 
 
 1 to tho 
 ilion — if «i 
 ot required 
 n to the 
 
 this (Jov- 
 ttkin^awuy, 
 oiiotwellth 
 ecd by the 
 ly on J other 
 that, if there 
 tics of this 
 onatc gcnile- 
 of British 
 
 was beard 
 lion Govoru- 
 dcmnity — to 
 I (Columbia 
 numbers, to 
 rould bo for 
 [)r their sue- 1 
 Limo, to pay 
 
 penalty of 
 of tho agrec- 
 crest of both 
 niiuon. 
 
 whatever, to 
 inini; tho in 
 
 .dvanco to one Province without 
 
 'ho facts con- liilowini; other Provinces to obtain, if 
 bis memory Ihoy desired it, tho same benefit on 
 hose: bo be- |i|^-y t-omlitioiis. It was also perfectly 
 bvious that in view of the very large 
 ni,'ugcment8 which this country had 
 hen assumed, it would bo tho most 
 
 - JangorouH thing to allow many 
 
 an advance *iillions of money to be drawn at call 
 I he spoke ; from tho public Treasury to servo the 
 that the Ik'" 
 
 1 had correct 
 10 time in the 
 3. ho (Mr. 
 alion to tho 
 
 h 
 
 noods of the scvoral Provincial 
 Kxccutives; and it was for tliat reason, 
 and alter full consiiloration, that tho 
 (Tovorninent introduced tho Act 
 e,(tifi('! (Vui. 17, whi'-h OKprossly 
 provided that this advance should be 
 made In 'li^ir discretion and for local 
 improveiii *^. Ho regretted that no 
 Ifansard aipearod to have boon 
 preserve'' for the year 1S74, becttu.so 
 his r dloet '>n was tb.il. at tho tiino 
 thi> ict was i'Mroducod, ho f.\[r, 
 Cirtwright/ < xpressly explained tho 
 reasons \\h. i h:id inducttd the Govern- 
 ment ti» W'lrd this particular section in 
 that fasluoni and iio t!;-*'! had 
 expressly called tho attention of the 
 memljo.'s, am )ii!^ whoiu, if ho remem- 
 bered !! right, was thn lion, gontleman 
 him>e!f to Iho fact that notice must be 
 given — 
 
 Mr. OKtXKSMO.S: Of what? 
 
 Ma. (JARTWIUGHT: That notice 
 must be given that those moneys wore 
 wanted, and also to the fact that it 
 must remain at the discretion of the 
 (rovornmont of tho Dojniruon, because 
 it would have been a most daiiircraus 
 addition to theii- then c\istit)<r liabilities 
 to empower the several (iovcrnmonts 
 at their ])leasure to come down suddenly 
 upon them for sums nmounting. col- 
 lectively, to Hovoral millions of dollars. 
 So much for tho reason why this Act 
 w;i.>i introduced, and for tho construction 
 whi.di the Govei-nment then and now 
 ]»ut ujxm it. He begged to inform the 
 hon. gentleman and tho Jlou.-<e that 
 they had had ni> intention whatever of 
 ombairassing tho Government, t<) which 
 the hon. gentleman had alluded. The 
 reasons whi<h had induced iho Govern- 
 mciiL in 1875 to decline to advance a 
 sum amounting to nearly half a million 
 of dollars, although that was subse- 
 (piontly modified ny agreeing to refund 
 to ilio Government of British Columbia 
 the sum of $189,000, wore, that in that 
 particular moment, enormous sums 
 wore required to be mot by the Govern- 
 ment of this Dominion, amounting, in 
 the hpaco of two <ir three months, from 
 the dale of which the hon. gentleman 
 had sj)okon, to, he thought, the sum 
 of twelve or fourteen millions of dollars. 
 Whether the hon. gentleman was cor- 
 roci or not in tho statement he (Mr. 
 DeCosmos) made that, in Juno or July, 
 
fO 
 
 1875, a large balance remained with 
 the bankers of the Donninion, he was 
 not Bure;'but assuming, lor the sake of 
 argument, that the hon. gentleman was 
 
 Juite correct, he could lei I him (Mv. 
 >eCo8mos) that at that moment their 
 engagements required every penny 
 they had in their coflers, and they had 
 had enormous sums to pay; and, further, 
 were obliged, in consequence of the de- 
 mands made upon them, to antedate 
 the period for the negotiation of the 
 loan in 1875, because the resources at 
 their command were hardly sufficient 
 to enable them to meet their then en- 
 gagements, which were very large, a 
 considerable portion of them being on 
 the account of British Columbia it.«-elf. 
 As to the calculations which tiie hon. 
 gentleman h:id made regarding the loss 
 which he stated the Province of British 
 Columbia had sustained in consequence 
 of this, ho could only say he very sin- 
 cerely regretted that the Province of 
 Briti^h Columbia should have been 
 exposed to any loss whatever. If he 
 had understood the hon. gentleman 
 aright — if not, ho (Mr. DeCosmos) 
 could correct him — the sum total 
 which that Pi'ovince would have been 
 entitled to would have been 8900,000. 
 Of that ^um the hon. gent, himself 
 admitted that they .eceived $330,000, 
 which certainly would not leave the 
 8um of 8750,000 available ; so that, 
 even if they hml obtained the full sum 
 which the hon. gentleman had said was 
 promised him, he (Mr. DeCosmos) 
 would not have been able to obtain 
 quite the loan he wanted. However, 
 he (Mr. Cartwright) would only point 
 out as to the calculation the hon.gentle- 
 man had made, that he did not see on 
 what principle he (Mr. DeCosmos) 
 assumed that the annual j)ayment 
 of 075,1100, ranging over thirty years, 
 was to betrcaicd as a piesentcash loss 
 to the Province of $1^25,000. He (Mr. 
 Cartwright) should be inclined to 
 think that it would be much less than 
 one half of that sum. 
 
 Mr. DfX'OSMOS : 1 did not say it 
 was a j)resent cash loss ; I said it would 
 eniail a loss of $225,000. 
 
 Mr. CAETWRIGHT said he was 
 ghul to be corrected. He had under- 
 stood the hon. gentleman to add to his 
 other euumeralions the damage which 
 
 he claimed that Province had sus- 
 tained, about 818,000 or thereabouts, 
 as being the cash interest on this 
 loss, which was the loss of British 
 Columbia from this time out on 
 the 8500,000 which the hon. gentle- 
 man said the Dominion owed them. 
 As to the little matter in dispute, the 
 guarantee loan, floated in 1873, he 
 could inform the hon. genUeman that 
 it was not Dominion five per cents., but 
 guaranteed Imperial four per cents, 
 which were not properly applicable for 
 a purpose of the kind to which he 
 (Mr. DeCosmos) alluded. Speaking 
 generally, the House would perceive 
 that this Act was passed for a good 
 reason, and he might also say that, if 
 the application of the Province of 
 British Columbia was declined, it was 
 not with a view to embarrass the Gov- 
 ernment of that Province in arj' way, 
 but simply because, at that particular 
 time, the Dominion tiovernmenthad so 
 many and such heavy demands made 
 upon them that it was a matter of very 
 great difficulty, at the moment, to see 
 how they were to meet the current lia- 
 bilities that came crowding upon them 
 without serious inconvenience to the 
 general public service. He need not 
 remind the House that at that par- 
 ticular time the distiess in Canada in 
 commercial circles was very serious, 
 and vei-y great difficulty was then ex- 
 ])erienced iti obtainingfrom the several 
 })laees in which money was deposited 
 the sums that the Government really 
 required to meet the wants of the 
 public service. Any other discussion 
 that might be had on this subject he 
 thought would be more fitting when 
 the several papers to which the 
 hon. gentleman had referred were 
 brought dov n, »..,.l they would be 
 brought down at the oailiest possible 
 moment. 
 
 Mr. DeCOSMOS said the last excuse 
 given by the hon. the Minister of 
 Finance for not passing this money 
 over to British Columbia was that 
 distress then existed in Canada. By 
 that, he presumed, ho (Mr. Cartwright) 
 meant (lid Can-ida ; and this made up 
 a large .share api)arently of the aigu- 
 mc'its of hon. members of the House, 
 who seemed generally, when dealing in 
 their disputes about matters of finance, 
 to refer to old Canada as the Dominion, 
 
 long 
 lion 
 Why 
 Mi nisi 
 distrei 
 Canad 
 distres 
 in the 
 as wel 
 that ] 
 entitle 
 sideral 
 vince, 
 the h( 
 grounc 
 nor sal 
 also sa 
 made a 
 and th 
 the ac 
 over, ^ 
 would 
 able th 
 CO the I 
 money 
 betwee 
 If the; 
 reason 
 was to 
 mcnt t( 
 been in 
 ernmet] 
 there 
 earthly 
 small a 
 $fa"OO,O0 
 allusior 
 ground 
 the D( 
 intentit 
 of his 
 that P 
 the ho 
 shown 
 and the 
 The hoi 
 appm-er 
 the ban 
 side, w 
 had pi-( 
 with Bi 
 Govern 
 hon. ge 
 Act caj) 
 not Stat 
 
 i^aAu i^^'_ i.^' -W-i 
 
11 
 
 I had 8U8- 
 hereabouts, 
 iHt on this 
 of British 
 e out on 
 on. gentlo- 
 wed them, 
 tlisputc, the 
 1 1873, he 
 leman that 
 r cents., but 
 per cents, 
 )j)rK'able for 
 which he 
 Speaking 
 lid perceive 
 for a good 
 pay that, if 
 Province of 
 ined, it was 
 ass the Gov- 
 in arj' way, 
 t particular 
 imcnlhad so 
 Tiands made 
 itter of very 
 iment, to see 
 3 current lia- 
 r upon them 
 ence to the 
 le need not 
 it that par- | 
 I Canada in ' 
 •ory serious, I 
 was then ex- ^ 
 Tit bo several | 
 as deposited 
 iment really 
 lints of the 
 or discussion 
 ,s subject he 
 fitting when 
 which the 
 jferreil were 
 ;y would be 
 iest possible 
 
 le last excuse 
 Minister of 
 this money 
 jia was that 
 Uanada. By 
 Cartwright) 
 his made \\\> 
 of the aigu- 
 f the House, 
 ion dealing in \ 
 i\-w of finance, : 
 bo Dominion, , 
 
 forgetting that there were besides the 
 Maritime Provinces, with one 
 million of people, another Maritime 
 Province, which he hoped before 
 long would also have its mil- 
 lion of people in this Dominion. 
 Why had not the hon. the Finance 
 Minister, when he was dealing with the 
 distress existing at that time in 
 Canada, remembeied that considerable 
 distress would be entailed by his action 
 in the Province of British Columbia 
 as well. He (Mr. DeCosmos) thought 
 that that Province was as much 
 entitled to the hon. gentleman's con- 
 sideration as this or any other i'ro- 
 vince, and he, therefore, took it that 
 the hon. gentleman's excuse on that 
 ground was neither full, nor complete, 
 nor satisfactory. The hon. gentleman 
 also said that he (Mr. DeCosmos) had 
 made an error about the $750,000 loan, 
 and that the real difference between 
 the actual and allowed debt not paid 
 over, w»s some 8600,000 odd ; but 
 would any one suppose it to be desir- 
 able that any Government should go 
 ^o the British Market, or any foreign 
 money market, to borrow the difference 
 between $600,000 odd and $750,000. 
 If they would, not do so, then the 
 reason why this $750,000 was borrowed 
 was to enable the Provincial Govern- 
 ment to meet the liabilities which had 
 been incurred. If the Dominion Gov- 
 ernment had paid this $600,000 odd, 
 there n^ver would have been any 
 earthly necessity to issue bonds for so 
 small an amount as the excess over 
 $600,000; hence the hon. gentleman's 
 allusion in that particular fell to the 
 ground. The hon. gentleman said 
 the Dominion Government had no 
 intention to embarrass the Government 
 of his Pj-ovince. The Government of 
 that Province was embarrassed, but 
 the hon. gentleman's kindness was 
 shown towards the bankers and others 
 and the commercial people on this side. 
 The hon. gentleman s whole soul was 
 apparently engaged in sympathy with 
 the bankers and the merchants on this 
 side, with whom he ("Mr. Cartwright) 
 had previously no obligation, and not 
 with British Columbia, with which the 
 Government had an obligation. The 
 hon. gentleman could not say that this 
 Act cap. 17 was permissive, and could 
 not state here on the floor of the House 
 
 that the Province of British Columbia 
 had to give notice. He accepted from 
 the hon. gentleman, to a certain ex- 
 tent, the necessity for notice; but 
 not to the extent in which he (Mr. 
 Cartwright) had put it. For the Pro- 
 vince of British Columbia had given 
 notice, and had negotiated with the 
 Government of the Dominion for 
 the advance of this mone^-. The hon. 
 the Premier of this Government had 
 agreed with that Province, and the hon. 
 the Finance Minister of the late Gov- 
 ernment had agreed with that Province 
 to do so. And the hon. gentleman 
 himself (Mr. Cartwright) had stalked 
 through the Privy Council Chamber 
 when the arrangement was made with 
 the present Premier of the Domin- 
 ion. His hon. friend the Minister 
 of jyiarine and Fisheries knew that it 
 was a deliberate and understood thing 
 by the leading members of the Ministry 
 when they came into power, and befoue 
 the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cartwright) 
 went to his constituency, that this 
 money should be pa'd over to the Pro- 
 vince of British Columbia; and, if he 
 (Mr. Cartwright) came down to 
 the House to-day, and told it that the 
 Province had to give notice,that the Act 
 was merely permissive, and that the 
 Dominion Government could do as it 
 pleased, he (Mr. DeCosmos) took this 
 occasion to state that the hon. the 
 Minister of Finance either nuvde a very 
 great error in this matter, or that the 
 hon. gentleman's memory was exceed- 
 ingly treacherous. It was obvious 
 that it would net be proper to allow 
 the other Provinces to draw without 
 notice — and in this he certainly agreed 
 with the hon. gentleman — on the 
 Dominion Treasury, at their will and 
 pleasure, without notifying them ; and 
 ill this case of the Province of British 
 Columbia, thoy had given notice, and 
 had a positive agreement, and hence the 
 objection of the hon. gentleman would 
 not come under that head at all. With 
 respect to the hon. tho Premier, he 
 knew full well when he brought 
 his resolutions to go into Com- 
 mittee of Sunply that the advance 
 was to be made to British Colurnbia — 
 for he (Mr. DeCosmos) had spoken to 
 him on tho subject, whore ho now sat, 
 several times,and more than that ho had 
 written letters to the hon. the Finance 
 
12 
 
 Minister, which ho (Mr. DeCosmos) 
 had in liis pos.se8f.ion at the prowent 
 ninnieiit, with re.-^pect to this matter — 
 i>i which he (Mr. DeCosmoH) had a.skcd j 
 wluMi lie wtis jj;oinfj to hnir^ ucnvn liis [ 
 Tnert.Muc — and what for? — to carry out 
 llic :iirr«H!ment with British Columbia, 
 not niereiy with respect to this loan, 
 hut altso with respect to Jio ^ravin^ 
 dock. Hence, the statement tliat this 
 Bill wa.> intrMluced into this House, and i 
 tliat Briti>h ('olumbia was placed in 
 tlie same position as other Provinces, 
 was an ori-or ; and that it was art 
 error, he believed, was capable ot 
 full and complete proof. The hon. 
 jrentlcman ^aid ho knew nothing- 
 al.out this matter. He would re- 
 mind the hon. <;ontienian that, when 
 r«iltiii;if in the Privy Council Chamber, 
 he himself was there when this matter 
 was undei'stood, with other moraljci-s 
 ot the Government. If it was not 
 brf)unht to the notice of the Finance 
 .\finistor of this countrv, he could not 
 
 conceive why it waft not; for it had 
 been discussed over and over again by 
 the hon. the Minister of Marine and 
 Fisheries and others; and ho was told, 
 when ho wmilcii lo get the confirma- 
 tion of this aL'rcomont with the late 
 Government, that they saw nodifficnlty 
 about this matter. He believed it 
 was on his own sugsresMon to the 
 Premier tliat thii^ privilege should 1>« 
 (sxtendod to all the Provinces, that 
 it was extended in the Act thej' had 
 before them. 
 
 Mr. TUPPFJ? said he quite 
 concurred with the remark made 
 by the hon. the Minister of 
 FinaTice, that i^ would be more con- 
 venient for the House to take a discus- 
 sion on this question, which waa 
 certainly a very important one, as pre- 
 sented by the hon. member, when the 
 papers were all brought down and the 
 fjicts were all before them. 
 
 Motion agreed to. 
 
 Marlx!a'i R<i(;cr & (>. , I'arli.imcnury and Departmental Piinten, OttawSi Oat. 
 
 i 
 
ror it had 
 r again by 
 rarine and 
 ) was told, 
 I confirma- 
 h the late 
 oflifficnlty 
 •elieved it 
 on to the 
 should 1)« 
 incGH, that 
 ; they had 
 
 he quite 
 ark made 
 inister of 
 more con- 
 ke a discus- 
 ivhich was 
 one, as pre- 
 I', when the 
 wn and the