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 W 
 
 /?«rTHE CREDIT VALLEY AND NOIITHEUN RAILWAY COMPANIES, 
 Th« Hpeciftl Ooniinittoe ajipointed by th« City Council of Toronto toconsitU'r 
 I tlie petitioHH of tlie Cr«»lit Vailoy anil Northern Railway Companies met at 
 
 the City Hall, March ."ith, IHKU. 
 
 Prenent : 
 
 Mis 
 
 VV'opship the Mayor. 
 
 AM. 
 
 MoMurrich, 
 
 Chairman 
 
 
 McMurray. 
 Morric. 
 
 
 << 
 
 Carlyle. 
 
 ■}•. 
 
 <( 
 
 Clo8e> 
 
 
 ii 
 
 Ixihh. . 
 
 
 (( 
 
 Mitchell. 
 
 
 1" 
 
 Farley. 
 
 
 u 
 
 Walker. « 
 
 
 u 
 
 Stolner. 
 
 
 The icepresentatjive* of the Railway Companies addressed the Committee as 
 
 followH : . "^ 
 
 Ai.D, MoMuRKicn (Chairman)— The Credit Valley will state their case first. 
 
 JUr. Weli^s I have been absent from town for the last few days, and was 
 
 only informed- of this Committee meeting this morning, and am. sorry 
 that my engagements have been such I have not been able to make that 
 prep*ration which I would desire; however, I am pretty w«ll informed as 
 to the general facts of the whole case, and I presume the Committee want 
 nothing more than those facts, however imperfectly comtaunicated to them. 
 
 The, largest of the two.qr three questionB which are involved in this enquiry 
 relates to the rights of the City with respect to the water fwntage ; and I 
 think although this comes up only as incident to a petition of the Credit 
 Valley Railway, that the opportunity should not be lost by the City of en- 
 quiring into the whole subject, and, if possible, obtaining such legislation 
 as may relieve this City ot what I and a great mjyority of the citizens feel to 
 be a very serious inconvenience. ^ 
 
 It is well known, of course, that two Railway Companies occupy at least 
 . seventy-five or eighty acres of Tand of the frontage of the City. 
 
 With respect to one of these Companies— the Grand Trunk— I candidly 
 admit that they have acquired what rights they have acquired in a fair , 
 manner, and have paid tl^e price which was demanded for the land they 
 occupy, and I admit that no interference witli those rights should be 
 tolerated for 6ne moment which does not involve a fair compenBation to 
 that Company. „ ' 
 
 With respect to the other Company -r-the Korthern— the case is entirely 
 different. The land which they occupy, I do not hesitate to say, was 
 
 
 •«?..• 
 
 ♦S113 
 
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 b ?i^ \ ,.J^'!^r^'aA\A a .**rt»f » 4?-t ^JiaM-'*^ -""■ 
 
for U>it inoMt purl nr,{tiially' (UehHil hy tUtax from the Hity, and tlioir 
 t>as8eM8ion haM.bi'CD Mince uainUinutI ntul 9xttui<i(Ml with contitleruhlo Hkill^ 
 but no miittcr wliut may Ito tho viirioiix oirdiirnHlaniM'M attonding, from tliito 
 to tiae, the j^oqiii.iition of that ttiniiory, tlio fact now in, that thi> Noi thorn 
 Company occupy a fronta>i«» of Bonis forty or fifty aoroM, 'without ovor liavln^ 
 paid thft Citv one Ringle farthing for it. .'That ifi the state of thinjTH, uixl I 
 think the City Rhouhl take tho opportunity whi<</h now arisen of |iuttlug it 
 right in Rome way or other. 
 
 The first quoHtion therefore in, Wiiat the City ought to do under the lirouui 
 ■tanco.4. Is it ^o be endured that tiiese two CouipHuieit are for all time to 
 ootne to occtjpy the whole water frontage of tlio City Esplunado and all — 
 to the absolute exclusion of all other railway enterprise? I do not think it 
 would be tolerated in any city in the world, that about 80 acren, oppoHite 
 the very commercial centre of th% city, should be occupied for the pur- 
 pose for which these Companies occupy it — to the inconvenience, to the 
 intolerable inconvenience, of the citizens. Wo all know that It is almost 
 impossible to get down from any of the streets west of York Street to 
 the water without going through an., entanglement of cars; that they use 
 this large frontage, not <m they do in other cities, merely (or main entering 
 lines, but for the purpose of switching backward and forward, making up 
 train.'*, storing and washing their cars, and tor many other purpose;) for 
 which they could and should have space elMwhere. 
 
 This occupation of so much valuable ground is a very serious matter for the 
 Oity, and I think that immediate steps should bo taken by which these 
 Companies should be compelled to give up the use of the ground for those 
 purposes. Some system should bo devised by which main lines alone should 
 be permitted upon the Esplanade, but for all these other purposes these 
 Companies should be compelled to get land outside the City, or in less 
 valuable localities, as they do in other large cities. 
 
 llien I think some movement "should be now made (the City is quite old 
 enough, and large enough, to justify it), some movement should I say be 
 made whereby all the railways should be compelled to come into one station. 
 There is ample room north of the present Union Station for an ej^tension, 
 BO that instead of having so many stations, namely, the Nipissing at 
 Berkeley Street, the 'Northern at the City Hall, the Qreat Western at 
 Yonge Street, the Grand Trunk at York Street, the Western ag^in at Simcoe 
 Street, and the Northern again at Brock Street, all of the railways should be 
 compelled to oome into one Grand Union station, and abandon these various 
 stations that are po scattered about the dity. This is a question of great 
 importance, and demands the most intelligent consideration. 
 
 Then coming to the particular question of the entrance of the Credit Valley 
 into the Cily, I auppoae if the City had never^^Hr^i^ one cent to the Com- 
 pany, that you would feel that it was for t^i/mterest of business that this 
 new railway, traversing so important a^-C^itory as it does, to the extent of 
 no leu thui 186 miles, should be allowed to come into the City, and do 
 
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 i&K'j!jr2wcsr'QKiiS- * *w«.,3iss-it:r- 
 
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 t. ^^ ■xr^iss^'-i ~ : 
 
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 the htiHlnpHN of the City. How niuoh moro will you desire thia after having 
 given a Hiim of $.'{.')(),(KK) towanU the conatruotinn of the railway 7 
 
 It hftH been utated th»t the'ne two OomiianicN are quite willing that tha 
 (/Vodit Valley lUilway ahoulti nonio into the City, hut I think a little ex- 
 amination into the tnodeii which they reapootively propos* will ithow how 
 iniiinot^rH and diHingonuouH they are. It will appear that the Grand Trunk 
 are quite wi|linu that wo hAouIiI go through the Northern ground, and the 
 Northern quite willing that we hIiouM go through the Grand Trunk (l(roun<l, 
 but that neither of them in willing that the Credit Valley lloilway Hhould 
 ooine even to Bathurtit .Street, unl«>H!t we abandon the right to go through 
 the only ground available lor an entrance. \ . 
 
 The Credit Valley Ilailway df> not care by whioh route they enter into the 
 City; nd long aa they get to their v^ter lots. \ 
 
 I do not hesitate to say on the part of the Credit Valley Railway that it 
 would be preferable that we Hhould go through the grounds of the Northern 
 rather than through those of the Grand Trunk. The routd is more direct. 
 It involves the crossing of fewer tracks, and altogether it is the better route 
 of the two. There is no question about, that. 
 
 Mr. Shanly laid down a plan which involved going north of the Northern 
 grounds, between Bathurst and Brook Htreets, and thence through the 
 ground of the Graml Trunk, to the water lots of the Credit Valley Ra,ilway. 
 Thfkt is the plan which Mr. Hhanly laid down. And I atn aware that Mr. 
 Shanly believes there will be difficulties in making an independent ontranoe 
 into the Northern ground ; but assuming that alight difficulty to be over- 
 come, I leave it to the common senHC of this Committee, with that larg^ 
 block of land, and considering the business they do, whether it would si 
 the engin^ring talents of any engineer to provide a truck for the Cr 
 Valley which would not interfere with their business to any appreciahle ex 
 tent. 
 
 
 
 I am sure that it would not. I am sure that even if it involved going over the 
 present main line at the throat, if I may so call it, for perhaps a few hundred 
 feet, that it wpuld not strain the engineering skill of a man of moderate 
 ability to find room fpr another track through the grounds of that Company. 
 
 If I do not forget, there are already two tracks which lead into the Northern 
 ground. Well, surely an arrangement could b^ made by which they should 
 themselves ent«r upon one track, and give a right Of way for the Credit 
 Valley Railway where the present second track exists; or there may be 
 other means. But i am sure the common sense of this Committee will 
 agree with me in thinking that there are no difficulties which may not be 
 overcome if there is a disposition on the part of the Northern Company to 
 overcome, them. ■■''*■■. 
 
 Then the Oity has another interest, that is the proprietary interest in the 
 ground. It is well-known that the City of Toronto hoFds a •license of 
 occupation, granted in I&53, of all that ground. That license was granted, 
 
 
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 *-«;**:©!:' *-T— fir^TitaiascS^ ■*&. 
 
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 •uhjotitto th* righ» of tlio Northern lUilwuy Coniiwiiy, to occupy for t»i.. - 
 |.nr^)^lli^<^^f a t*«rminftl,iiti»tion tho bnd Ihay then <wcu|.i«^, but aUo »»ub)pcl 
 t<. llirt rtgJil pf pthfr Railway Compunlei* (or ih* mtmo purpone. That wuh 
 th« «xpr»^»i contdilion of that Onlor in Council, nn<i which I will r«a<l : 
 Tiio (Jomi^too of Council rccomnicml that the Llccntio of Occupation he 
 Ihmuo'I an prayo«l for, liuhjcct, however, to any claiuw which »»ay he .mtahlinh 
 «mI by tlic reMppHivertfflcerH of her \^ieHty'H Ordnance or by the military 
 authorities, arul Mubjttet almi to th* tmciipadon, hy the Ontario, Hiincoe A 
 Huron Kaili-oad Union (Company of Huch Hpace an may be nece»nary for th^m 
 /•n the purpose of a terminun and W»ii<h ban already been taken p<WHeHi»ion 
 of by thein, the Bftid Company to i>ay for KU<ih npaiie nxwh amount iw may be • 
 awardo«l by arbitration, to be appointed hereafter, in Huch manner an to 
 your KxceUency may neem lit, and liubject, likewiMc, to the occupation by 
 other linilway Companies of tuoh ipaci^s may be required for similar pur 
 poses; and the value to bo-PHtabli»ho«l hathe Hame way, Mubject generally 
 to the other ^nditions imiwweii by* the\)r«Jor in Council of l^h Decern 
 ber, IHM. :' " . \ 
 
 ThoHe are the distinct rights laid down by t\\ Order in Council, passed iu 
 1853, under which the. Northern occupy that property. Further, in IHrifi, an 
 Order in Council was passed ordering the issue of a patent to the City. But 
 the Northern Railway Company were allowed to use such portion of that 
 ground as they were then in posaossion of, and 1 think I may safely say the 
 ground thoy were visibly in possession of. Supposing they had put f takes 
 out in the water, it did not mean oonstnictive filossession of that kind— 
 itdid not intend they were to occupy everything they could see—it meant, 
 and T think the Committee will agre« with me, it meant what they actually 
 and visibly occupied "for the purpose of a terminus." Their tracks and 
 buildings were there, and ifn^ant that they had a ri><ht to keep those 
 tracks and buildings. But it was aUo subject to the rights of other Railway 
 Companies. Now if the Northern were to have tjio whole, what was the 
 meaning of this reserve in favour of other Companies ? The Northern say 
 now there is no room for any other Company./ So far from allowing a 
 depot there— so far from allowing us to have our terminus there, as the 
 Order in Council contemplated, such aa they have, we are not to have even 
 a single track for our main line. They say, we will not even let you pass 
 through the ground which the Order in Council gives you a right to occupy 
 equally with ourselves. A proposition was made that we should take 40 or 
 ,*»0 lect off the northern boundary of their land, nnd even that they repudiated 
 with a great deal of warmth. I say their conduct is utterly unreasonable. 
 1 say from the fact that they never paid one farthing for this land ; from the 
 fact that there was an arbitration, and they utterly repudiate; I say that 
 having regard to these facts, and to the fAct that they only occupy subject 
 to certain provisions and conditions, it is a most presumptuous atand 
 that they have Uken, and one which the City of Toronto should reaent. I 
 think, Mr. Chairman and Opntlemen, it is high time for the City to wake up 
 to the iiiiparUnoe of thia question. The City is altogether too great, and 
 
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 T 
 
/' 
 
 iko it «n<itiriil)lM that tli 
 
 nboiiltl \i* hiiintt 
 
 Mr. Bobi,ton_1 «lo j»ot wi«_Q lo occu|i^.ftny |ii 
 not mtoiul to do si^fayfUiTueik (rKmd, Mr. 
 piofessional opinion |(iS|lfiift engineering jioint c 
 
 ih«ir int«>rMtii too Urgn ti 
 gc<l in the manner th« Noriham lUilwiiy (;orn|i«ny try to hiuubug thi^nt itny 
 lt)nK*r. 
 
 Wn hkVM now npplind to I'KrhAnuMit, nnrl un<lAr micih ii(ii«|iioAii, I think, nx 
 will imiaMa iih to miooi'od, iiikI Iiiivm thin (|ui<iitk>n (Itiully ••••ttli'd onc<^ und (or. 
 6vcr. 'I1fi>r<t nmy Iia oth«r Uuilwuy CoiupanioH ooniing into thin ('ity, and 
 Arti wo going to huvo (hJM kuiuh Hght ovir iind ov«r again 7 With regard 
 to t>i«' 'I'uroiUo und ()ttawa Knilwny, for iriHtanoe, iirM wo going to hav«> 
 tho Mamn light over again? Saruly wo will, unloN* thiw <|utmtion in Nott|t>i( 
 now and d«Hnit«>ly. Thu whola mieatloii— .th« right of th««H»» KailwuyN to 
 tak« all tlwwe water Iota— the right ol cntrHiicH into tho City— th« rightn 
 of th« variouR C'ompanirM to occupy th« whole iff the Krtplunudfl thould b<> 
 diRtiDotly aaoertained, aetout atul known. 'HiA Northern (.'oin(>any, which 
 heretofore haii refuned to pay tho City of Toronto for the gronnd which he- 
 loftga to the City, iihould be ina<lo to pay vVhat they owe to the City; and I 
 venture to nay, if the present Council XAken up thla qneiition, they will 
 tind that they will have solved the'in>0Bt important qiieHtion which the 
 Municipal Council of the City of Toi^l^'^itu* taken up for many yeurw, and 
 will have denerved and will obtaifn '^ InHting gratitude of'the citiKenn. 
 
 Mr. Bobi-ton^I do jiot wi«^ lo occu|i^,ftny great length of time, and I <|o 
 
 Wells, did — prolVjui to give a 
 of view. Mr. WeIN sayH thei-e 
 ia no- engineer of ordinary intelligence !*bfit could find out that the proper 
 way for the Credit Valley Railway tn^^j^ in through the Northern Railway 
 V yani. Well, alM have got to Riiy «|!jith regard to thnt in, I will not xiiy what 
 ^is argument on a queitionof law might be, but 1 do not think it in entitled 
 s to very much weight ln>n engineering point of view; and when he talk* 
 kbout there being mt' difficulty in the Credit Valley Railway getting Ihroiigli 
 in^ yur^l ot the Northiarn, he oxprc»M|^tn,oplhroii that ia entirely with- 
 outW4Ught, and he,|iitH hiit own opinioflEnWnBt the ilirect atatenient of men 
 like ^Jl'r^Tij: i^hanly, Mr. Walter SBaffly, Mr. Brydjw.«, Mr. W. K. Muir, 
 M.r. S'andlbrd Fleming, Mr. Swiny«»rd, Mr. Moberly^if''. Payne (who in en- 
 tirely An outsider, as he is the Superintendent of the Michigan Houthern), 
 and Mr. Owen .Tftnes, our own engineer ; arid I think he ra;fher goes beyond 
 thi9 limit ^hen l;i,e. prdtesses to give his opinion that there is no difficulty, 
 against the opinions of all these eminent men, who, except the last, have 
 no' interest in the Northern Railway, and are entirely independent of it; 
 and, 90 far as Mr. Muir if\ concerned, he having been connected with the 
 ('ana<la Southern Railway, it would be presumed he ismore in favour of the 
 Oedit Valley Rikilway, and I think it is rather gging beyond bounds for my 
 learned friend to get up and make such a statement in th»fkee of the above 
 reports. All those gentlemen have given their expressed opinion, without 
 any interference on thb part of the Northern. They have visited the 
 grounds, and I think if the gentlemen present would read the re(]>ort9 they 
 would be verjrjgmoh surprised at their strong expressions. 
 
 Mr. Suidford Fleming sitys no sane peraon would propose such: a location. I 
 
• 
 
 . \ 
 
 I « 
 
 tlilnk Mr. NViiUcr .Mlinnty Myn It would In* mmtalmii* \n nllnw mii'h • 
 loKHtinn. An<l tlm oth<*r )ri*ntli>nion nrx ikll of thn *iim«> Atilnlon. How- 
 «vi<r, I iiiii tint uii otij|in<««*r, ntxl am to Ito Kiiiil<«l hy |irofi<«*i<)niil «ni(in«t«ni 
 in roriitlii)! '»> opinion. 1 do not {irotrtN, n« my l#iirn«<l frioiiii <lo#f, to art 
 Mi<li« lliK opinion* <iftho«# Koiilli'mrti. 
 
 A4 to tht* po«ttlon of tilt* Northi>rn Itnilway ('ompiiny with r^Knrd to K\\» 
 Htntion gmiintU, I havn hpimi tlin (/rptllt ViillMy Bill for tbn flrnt timn to-<liiy. 
 'nii> ('retlkt V«ll«y K^llwny (7ompAnynr« Nanking to olitkih from tlii* Dominion 
 Ii«>f;iitliitur« MUihorily to nn throii|{h Nonift portion ol (hi* propi^rty withnpt 
 paying iinything for it «t aN. 'I'h«>y mii) that tli«*y wnnt to go throiiKli our 
 ^roumlif'ir in»tano«>, ami tak^no much prop«»rty a* th«y may r«(|uir<i, with, 
 nut paying anything for It what f>vor~. not a ■ixpanoe. Wn <io not auk, an<l 
 rt«v«r havo a«k«<l, from tho ('r«tdit Vallry lUilway^nmpany anything for 
 tha original valun of the land ; hut what wn do aak, and int«nd to aak and 
 iniiiMt upon In, that thn Or«<iit Vallny Kailway ahall pay th«ir proportion of 
 what w« hav* actually expftndei^l on tha property. 
 
 My l(>am(>d friend nays thiit they arc quit« wdltng to do it. Why did th«>y 
 not put It in the bill 7 
 
 Mr. WKi.iA-..It ia in the Bill. « 
 
 
 Mr. Bori.toN — It in not in th<> Bill aa printed. 
 
 Mu. WKi.i.'i — My leurn(>d friend lian only th« iihort HynoptiiM of tha Bill, which 
 waH publiiih«d in the ntiwspapcrH. Ho haii not neen thn whole Bill. ^ \. ^ 
 
 Mil. Boui.TON— The poiiition we occupy with regnrd to the property ih aipiply 
 this : We have a plan which shown that we took posncuion of this property ' ' 
 in 1852, which ia aketched out there on .your wall. My learned friend, 
 Sir. WellH, says wo did not take poaaeaslon of this property, or hut a 
 very small portion of it. He says that because we did not All in the whole 
 property, right out to the windmill line, we had not taken possession of it. 
 It is nonsense to say that because we did not fill thi whole of it up in 1853.^4 
 or \H!>5, that we did not oocupy it, and it^ in wasting time to argue it. 
 
 My learned friend refers to the license of occupation, giving the City pod 
 HPssion up to the Queen's Wharf. Now I will say«ln the firnt place that that 
 license of occupation expressly reserved the rightn of the ordnanco aiithoii- 
 ties and of tho Northern Kailway. And I will fiirther say, taking that out of 
 the question altogether, the license of occupatiob was given in consideration 
 of the City building a continuous Esplanade, frotn Berkeley Street up to the 
 Queen's Wharf. I can show you by the Heports of the City Oounoil in 18^, 
 1854 and 1655 that the City Council Expressly abandoned the oohstruc- 
 tion of the Esplanade beyond Brook Street, on the ground that it .would 
 cost more than it was worth, and anybody who goes through the records of 
 the building of the Esplanade will diacoyer for themselves that the City Coun - 
 oil not only did not get what the Esplanade cost, but that they paid large 
 sums back to the water lot owners; so that even if the contention of the City 
 Council is correct, and th«t they are ehtitled to this property, they would 
 
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 h«v«t to {Niy ui Mni0 tlHt,()M)| Imi }\My that thft (Uly Council •ipn-Mlv 
 ftliniKlnnaii 'th«« Itiiildlnii of lli*« KapUiiMili* l>«yoiiil HKH'fc Sir«>«t, aixl 
 timt thoy hnva iinvor »x|m>iii|<«)I oii« ninitl^ nolilnry liollitr, and wa, ttif 
 
 Northfrn I^Ailwny, liav* i«ipfn<l<*<l iinmi* |;l<NMMN) nr f4(K>,(NN). 11 ily . 
 
 havfl niiviT »|^«nl on« ret*/ Thwy havo <lon« nnthlnfl wKati>v«»r. Th^y 
 have not oomplit**! with tli« Hci«<tiHi« of OtM'tipation. *U\ llii* contrary, th<'y 
 •xproMty iihnnil<in«>l it. Yqu will llnd in tiiM Ki^mrt of Mr. Wiliton, Mn<l 
 •Uo in another l<«*|tort in tX.V}, thf*y illMtinotly iiay thtit thoy ahandoti 
 Ui«* oonatruation of thn KN|>lana<l«i lM«yon<l that point, and lh«-nnfi)r«t we con- 
 tnnd Hint th«*y liavi* no nlaim or tttin to th<> liin<l. 
 
 What I hAV« to lay with ruticard to thn title of thn Northnrn Itailway Com 
 pany to thia pro|)««r)y, will rtftfuira vAry littht «iplanaiion. What w« aay in 
 that all thU li'.nd, from (juawn Htrawt. <iown to HriK'k .Str««>t, wan ordnation 
 property. W«« w«nt into po«it«iiaioii of that property aft«>r agiiHt ix'^otiation 
 and lomA oorr«aponden<;fl and diffliuilty with thu Ordnanoi|Lj)«>pttrlm4»nt, 
 ^ Atul with thnir a«««nt. That that waa th«^ canA I can Antahlijih hy ihn dmniiion 
 
 jirthe Court of (/hancory, in th« oann ol the (irand Trunk va. Crndii Valley, 
 d«olde<l by Vice ChanoAllor I'roudfoot, in which aaaa \m oxpr<>mly hohla 
 that the effpot of th^ evidence wu* that wo weh't into poitiieMNion of 
 .thIa under our uluirter power*, with (h« a«Hent of the Ordpance uuthoritieB, 
 who were owner* of the property. Hin<;e that lime we have been in oon^ 
 tiououa and imdiaturbed |jo«NeHion. 
 
 y^ \ That (h to tay.: We took mwaeHaion In lH.'i3, and reipained in poas^Hsion to 
 
 the preaerftstin>e. 
 
 In IK.'iO the Northern Railway waa what you may eall bnnfcrupt. It wns 
 reported by the Government Engineer unfit for uae and unsafe for trnvel, 
 and in coDxequence the (lovernment at that date psHxed an Act of I'arllii 
 "^Z mnnt under which it took poueHiiion of the |(&Hway, with |:>ow«r to aell tlie 
 road either by auction or private sale. * ^ - 
 
 An Order in Council waa panned on the llth May, \Sli9, by which the pro, 
 perty of the Com|)any was revested hack to the (>)mpany on certain cnndi- 
 tiona. It hafl been stated that the Northern Railway Company never 
 ■ paid anything at all for this property. I aay th*t ia an incorrect statement. 
 I say as a matter of fact, in 1859, when the Order in Council wan passed, 
 the Oovernment took £60,000 in second- preference bonds on account ot^ 
 their claim against the Company ; and furtbantaore, at that date, and this 
 ahowB that Parliament had no intention of claiming anything for this land, 
 there was asuqn of money espacially appropriated by that Orfler in Council 
 
 a sum of £50,000— to pay what wai^ called the floating dabta of the C'om- 
 
 pany ; and it waa specially stated thai if that sum of £50,000 was not 
 '' aufflcient to pay bti the wholef of the floating debt, then that sum should be 
 paid over Ui the ReceiverOaneral. to b« by him appropriated pro rata 
 among the different claims, and the effiMt of that order was that the Com- 
 pany should be entirely free from claim or debts whatever for this property, 
 and for all others, because at that tim« tlii* was not tha only claim for right 
 
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 of way for which they w6re indebterJ. There were several other people that 
 clainiod money, and if the Oovernment at that date had made any claim 
 whatever for this property, that payment would have had to come out of 
 -the £50,<X)0 which was appropriated to relieve the Company from debt at 
 that time. 
 
 I say ns a matter of law andxsommon sense the whole thing must have be«m 
 concluded and decided, and it has been sirepe decided by tH^ learnedjVice- 
 Ciiancellor, that th;it was the effect of the Order in Council of 1859 ; and to 
 show morejjarticularly that that was the case, if, as is asserted, the Crown 
 intended to retain their control and possession of the property^where the 
 station ground now is, what was the object, necessity or sense of their putting 
 in a restricted control over the grounds 7 * 
 
 The learned ViceCfaancellor holds, in his judgment, that everything they did 
 not reserve they gave up; the Government purposely and intentionally 
 conceded this property to us. They knew we had no money. If they had 
 asserted any claim to it we could not have paid it. I say as a matter of fact, 
 and no personcat^^tjome to any other opinion, as a matter of tact and law, 
 that the Government abandoned any claim for this property, knowing that 
 the Company being bankrupt could not pay for it. There was no way in 
 which they could pay ftfr it. There was not a cent of money out of which 
 any claims for compensation for this. property could have been paid. It had 
 to go towards putting the road in repair ; and I say the Order in Council 
 shows plainly that the intention of the Government, with the exception of 
 that limited reservation, was to hand the property over free from debt. 
 
 In 1859 this property being thus handed over to us, with a reservation 
 of certain portions of it, giving facilities for other Railway Companies, the 
 Government acted on that reservation, and took away a certain • portion for 
 the purpose of letting other Railways come in, and that ground is now taken 
 away from us. That 'is the ground outside our fence to the north— our 
 boundary having extended originally to Front Street. 
 
 Mk. Cassbls said he was wrong. That he was forgetting the right of way 
 .that the Grand Trunk owned. ' 
 
 Mb. BouLTON~The City had to give the Grand Trunk a right of way ; and 
 instead of going to the south, they mutually arranged that the Grand Trunk 
 should go to the north of their groundi^. As a matter of fact the Grand 
 Trunk had no legal right throqgh there— that they would have been stopped 
 if they had not mutually arranged it. I say it is not n«oeBsary tor me to 
 argue whether the ground was taken for existing railways or not. As 
 a matter of fiKJt, the ground for the purpose of letting the Great Western 
 and Grand Trunk through wa» taken away from us. Whether the intention 
 was to allow other roads to come in, it is not my business to enquire. 
 That control whioh was reserved to the Government in the Order in 
 Council of 1859 having been acted opon, Parliament, in the Act of 1875, 
 recited that it had been repealed, except so far as it had been previously 
 acted upon. We have got a title to the property which cannot be touched 
 
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 by anybody. Even Bupposing Ihat were not the onae, I do not know whal 
 my friends are driving at. What I understand by the law is that ev*n if w* 
 ]taye not got a legal title, after having taken possession of the property by 
 our charter powers, the City of Toronto cannot take it away from us ; nor 
 can the Credit Valley, acting under them, take it away ,frora us. If it la 
 • question of claim, it is a question of how much we have got to pay for it 
 
 My learned friend cannot pretend for a moment that once a Railway Com- 
 pany takes possession of a piece of property, with the assent of the owner, 
 that the owner can do more than claim for •compensation. He cannot dis- 
 possess them* 
 
 The Vice Chancellor holds the same thing, that where a Company takM 
 possession with tha assent of the otvner, the owner can only claim for 
 compensation. I do not see what good it would be for the Credit Valley 
 Railway Company, that the City of Toronto "M^d establish their claim, 
 unless they think the effect of the petition wouuPoe to give a portion of the 
 olaim for compensation to the Credit >Valley Railway Comp*ny. But that 
 will not bring them into the City. ' 
 
 I would like our learned friend to produce Mr. Bailey. The officers of th* 
 Credit Valley Ritilway Company take very good cai-e to keep out of the way. 
 My.learn'.'d friend comes down. Why does not Mr. Liidlaw come here and 
 give his views ? Why does not Mr. Bailey, the Ciiief Engineer of the Com- 
 pany, come and state his views ? 
 
 ' I am perfectly confident that Mr. Bailey, coming; down here oa a sensible 
 mnn, would state what these other engineers have stated, that the route 
 they propose to take, going through the centre of our yard, is preposterouo. 
 Mr. Wblm — That is not his opinion. It is the very reverse of that. 
 Mr. B0DI.T0N — I have good information that he would not sigln any such 
 plan. Wtf ought to have the eng^^eer of the road here to expresa 
 hi* opinion whether that is the proper location or not. We have taken th* 
 trouble of obtaining the opinion of all the leading railway experts in the 
 country, and they have all adopted one opinion. I think that instead of 
 our learned fHend contradicting all these other opinions), that the Engineer 
 of the Credit ,Valley Railway should come down and state his opinion. 
 I do not know that I have anything more to say. I simply state, and 
 we have the ^decision of the Court in our favour, that., we have the 
 absolute title to this property, and that it would be a breach of faith of 
 Parliament to go behind that. The people of England have advanced large 
 aunis of money on the supposition that this is our properly, and that is tha 
 natural supposition that would be taken from the Acts that have been 
 passed, and I do not think Pariiament will commit a breach of faith with 
 people who have put money intd the concern. 
 
 I have read to you the deliberate opinion of the Court. Would you attempt 
 to override that opinion? Let them go on with their appeal, and establiali 
 that that opinion is incorrect, but until that ia done the decision of the 
 Court must stand. 
 
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 Mr. Cuhbebland-I will not attempt to join in the legal dl.0UB.ion. I o»B 
 only add a few worda to what olir legal representative has said, and thai 
 more particularly with regftrd to question- of finance and engineering. I will, 
 however just refer for one Inoraent t»J o(»o question which I think m largely 
 a means of creating misunderstanding iirtd a hostile feeling towar.U our 
 Company, and that is with reference to the uso that has been made 
 of Esplanade Street. In the public journals and discussions that 
 have been going on for the last flfteon months in Toronto, we have been 
 held up to suspiifion, as if we were trespassers upon Esplanade Street, and 
 it has been said within the last fortnight or three weeks that we were to be 
 driven out of it. I would just say that we are there with a sealed agreement 
 of the Corporation_w. have it here upon parchment .igned by Mr. Medcalf 
 as Mayor, with the seal of the City attached-by whichwe have certain rights 
 under an agreement entered into with the Grand Trunk and Great Western, 
 and which agreement, together with the agreement with the Corporation of 
 Toronto, wua legilixed by an Act of ParlLiment. We are therefore there 
 with the grace ot the Corporation, and we are there by the power of an Act 
 of Parliament. I beseech, therefore, gentlemen who have been misled 
 upon that subject, to recognize that we are where we were mvited to go, 
 and that it is with the solemn sanction of the Corporation itself that we 
 are on Esplanade Street, east of Simcoe Street. 
 
 Now passing from that, I would just venture to *ay one word with regard to 
 the original construction ot the Esplanade. Did the original license of 
 occupation to the City for the purpose of an esplanade extend from 
 Berkeley Street to the Qiieen's Wharf? If it did, whai were the condition, 
 of that license of occupation? I am suggesting points of enqrtiry to the 
 Committee, in order that you should inform yourselves upon aU the poinis. 
 If it did, what were the conditions of that license? If you take the license 
 at all you must take it as a whole. If it included responsibihtie. as well a. 
 Privileges, you must carry them both. Now, sirs, if it extended to the 
 Queen's Wharf itiwas for the purpone of the constroction of the Esplanade, 
 expressed over and over again in all the documents. It was on condition 
 that the work should be done within a year. I know it is a trifling olject.on 
 to urge. We would not ur# that objection, but on that ground the objection 
 would stand if we saw fit to take it. ., , 
 
 After the first contract was given for the Esplanade, we all in Toeonto 
 stood aahast at the tremendous expenditure Which we were culled upon to 
 Incur for the construction of that work Irom Berkeley Street to the Queen s 
 Wharf It W.-W discovered that this portion west of Brock Street was deeper 
 than any other portion, was not required, being further from the City, out. 
 «ide the reach of the commercial centre ; that it would cost vastly more to 
 fill and after long discussions and many resolutions and reports, all of which 
 will be found among the records of the City Council, it w^ intentionaUy, 
 purposely, and, I wy, most wisely decided to abandon all west of Brock 
 Street. I hive in my hand a copy of the report. 
 (He read part of a report dated in 1854.) 
 

 It wtt"< <leoided, anil the dnoision was haaeil upon resolutions and reports, 
 ordern in Counrril, oiannat^iiig from all the authorities of th« Corpora- 
 tion, ^o abandon this expense upon vahielesa property. Then Oiowski'n 
 new plan and new contraot were made, largely reducing the expense 
 to the City of Toronto. Well then, the City did it with its "eyes wide 
 opon. T am not talking about titles. We will stand as a Company 
 supported by the law. The Courts have said that we have a good title, and 
 we nee<l go no further. But irrespective of that,. I want to^ discuss it 
 as an ordinary citizen ; let us look at it as business men. You never^ 
 '^ spent a dollar. You purposely and wisely abstained from spending,.* '^• 
 
 dollar. You left it for others. We were in possession in 1853, and I iky 
 here, utterly challenging any objection to the contrary, that you did not and 
 would not fill that land which we have filled at an enormous expense. What 
 •r^ the facts? The expense upon the Esplanade was tl, 374,307 in the 
 actual work of constructing the breast-work, of filling behind it. Simply 
 making land of water, ybu spent in cash $629,3'>8, that is between Berkeley 
 Street and Brook Street. What did you get back for it 7 Financially, next 
 to nothing. But the expenditure was justified by the broad and wise view 
 taken by the Corporation at that time that it would give commercial facili- 
 ties to ihe trade of the City, and therefore would eventually have unlimited 
 value. They took a broad view, and said it is "worth anything to get theie 
 Railways in. We, will give them easy terms to come in, for that will build 
 our City. But as a monetary question, nith reference to that property that 
 you filled, let us see- how you fared. Why, sirs, it cost you $629,358 for 
 filling, and you had the right to recover out of that $398,211 from the water 
 - lot owners. Did you? Those water lots were in the very heart and marraw 
 of the value of the City. Church Street, foot of Yonge Street, and the 
 intervening properties, were the valuable water frontases at that time, and 
 -^ thei-utbre you spent the citizens' money upon them. You spent upon private 
 property, water lot owners' property, a sum of $239,787.38, according to 
 ^our own reports, thit is to say, sir, you took the Baldwin property-~I am 
 nob l>eing pi'rsoniil, t am trying to bring it home — you took the Jones pro- 
 perty, the Goorlerliam & Worti property, the property of my old friend John 
 Ewart, at the foot of Yonge Street ; you put breastwork in front of itf yon 
 filled it and mide it land, at yotir own expense, and at the cost to yoii of 
 $239,000 odd. These are your dealings with private parties, and what were 
 your dealings with the Grand Trunk? In the first you showed your 
 extravagance. You htid power to collect from every man the cost of f 
 the filling, but you did not exact it. Btit with the Orand Trunk you 
 showed your wisdom by liberality. The Round House block alone . 
 cost the sum of $51,043 to fill— to make land of water — and what did you 
 do with it? You sold it to the Grand Trunk; you passed the property over, 
 fiUinjj, breastwork, all complete, made from the. water and reclaimed from 
 the lake; you sold it for $35,000, suffering a cash losi of $16,000. Whyt 
 
 Because you knew you were building your city ; you knew you could well 
 aff ird to throtv $16,000 into the lake rather than exclude the Railways fh>m 
 youi- midst. Yoi), wanted us centrally situated, and you wisely said we will 
 
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 have no jangle about thi. .n.tter. We will fill it anJ will .uff.r f 10.0;)() loM 
 and will present them with the fee simple. 
 
 Now then let u» come to tKe Northern-further away from the C:iy. No 
 „"n aT you will remember, wouUl off.r *10:) for that pr.M-rty 30 
 Z2 al Th« Hon. Mr. B mlton, our counsel's fatlnM-, Vhe ve I u.n r^ht 
 Tsayrn^ ha.l the refusal o. .t at $100 or «20;) an,l w.uM not tak. ... Son 
 what po! tion a.e we requi.ed to take 7 Wlmt pos.l.o., a.e w- now .,. w.^h 
 Cr'totheCity? FLHof all, I vory humbly submu, apart a L^-her 
 fnfm the law, speaking o..ly as a citizen, .uul as r.p.es....l...g owm-r. ol pro- 
 pTrty say iV you h.vl a cUi.n it was a crue- thin.4 f-r you to -tan . bv year 
 J?te.'year Ind .e..mitus t^ goon putting our mo..ey ...to '"« -^-^ Vi;';; '"[^^^ , 
 make land ..pon which you .tow say you have a clai.n. And 1 .» -u ihe 
 ^stiga ion af er all of a new Railway Com,.o.v that >ou a.e >•">"-' »« 
 nTake the move and to as.ert sonte. you know not what .nv-.e. .ou. cla,.n. You 
 have Bpenfa million a.id mor.. W.iat have w. do-.e ? We ha., -p-nt 
 iron b.lutwork and filling, exclusive o. «-7 ;-''''"«• '"-''"'^'J; 
 ec simply finishing it .w you fi-usUel the Esplart.id^, $18I,0H3 Why 
 S't you do .t? You we..e afrui-l. You ubmdo..ed any pr.nU,.e. 
 „n er the Order ip Council. I can p.ove .11 this by the Mmute. of your 
 Council You said it was too expensive. 1 1 was ot t .0 l.tt^e valu.. W. 
 wU only fill to Brook Street. I repeat, sir., if you ha I filled .t. you wo..ld 
 ^o have tilled it cheaper than we did. But .« a cash quest.on, Y"" « - »« 
 S.-and TrunlAhat block at upwards of 30 per cent. d.sco .nt upon the cos of 
 tt^e miintf ali if you had given it to u* at the same .ate, we ivould h.tve .aved 
 tarly mX. 'if you hfd f ome and .lone for us what you did for the G.«nd 
 ?ru i if Vou had filled that deep water witlMa«<l, we be..,g the., .n po.^ 
 •ess oi, yX could not have dispossessed us. We wer. there, and our right 
 rToSI by Act- of Parlia.nent, You could have come and filled for .«, 
 TdTou woull have settled with us. Even on the b.«i. o the settlement 
 with the Grand Trunk-and who ia there at that time would say a western 
 operty was as valuable as an eastern property 7_w shouU have «aved 30 ^ 
 per cenlon-the cost We should have stood to-day 960,000 better off than 
 we arf by hating this burden put upon us, you having escaped and 
 7un away f^m the responsibility of filling. We are nearly ^fiOO y.or.e off 
 thanTshouTd have Uen if you had done it, and you are $70,000 better off 
 San rf you h*i attempted to do what we have done, ^nd so I sajr. whether 
 U has referenVe to the law, or whether it has reference to the pl«n co.umon 
 1':: TZy business Jn, as shoWn by your o- Orders m Counc. . you 
 have saved immensely, and weuu-e sorry you did not do it. Why have you 
 5tIftl!I. liberally with u» tbau with water lot owners, to whom you ^ve a 
 dslrofc"^^^^^^ Andwhyle.,Uben.llythanwiththeG«ndTriink 
 
 toTom you gave adiscount ot more than 30 per cent, on the cost o filling ? 
 We ha^e Bto^ there for nearly thirty years. Wi have h^n putting our 
 montyTntoWe water, and we have incurred the reapon. biUty. Themoney 
 • Tmei i^mlbroad, aU a. far a. we are concerned, having na personal in- 
 ^^tL^\ »peakfoii»my colleagues, the Bireotom, men of somg^me^is 
 1S^f r^ eaXoi^mpathy i. -together witj» the City within th. 
 
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 .:^:;v^. 
 
 line of right, within the line ot morality, and of iWir rejai.l for 
 "Uve and liOt Live." /We h.ive our money tlMic Y<»"i wonl I not 
 put yom- mmey iheio. What you h.iv» don.« lor tin* (Irani Trunk 
 wo liftvt* done for .>iiri(dvoa. W« liuvo lilh'd our o vu (>r'i|'»*' ly. ""di 
 1 Hiiy, -w nro entitled to rcoognition. IKmm Ih h new Con»|>iinv— tlio Ci« lit 
 Viilley UaiUviiy. It roociveta mont imtiont liearin;;. Its.-enm lo d. luand 
 great nynipath., lor loday it i>* ul the jrate a-<l<in^' lor ihil land w'ui.li, in 
 our casiYHS '•hown, ha* co.it ua ho nun'h m<>n<»y, iin I uskmjr, n»or.->vir, from 
 the City f<«r a leiiso at a i\ominal <«'nt of propt-rtv f>i wliio.h !?l_>,()')l) to 
 f l4,0(M>hi»8 been off.Me t. It make:* all the ditt.»i:once wh -liter a C nupmy is 
 a netv or an old one. 
 
 Our tuxes to you, Bir, mpn'sent, in addition to all the good that I hope w« 
 do, commercially and otherwise— our toxes to you represent 5 per o«nt. 
 upon the 820O,()00 that you originally contributed to this un<leriakinv', and 
 I say that, havitig uia le that land ourselves— having spent the enoimoui 
 sum of $200,000 in simply making it land— I am sure that you will enquire 
 exhaustivdly before you will be le<l t • do an injustice under the generous 
 impulses that are due to aOiow Company. 1 want a little sympathy. Th« 
 wages and the pay roll* simply— the salaries of our people in the City of To- 
 ronto—within the last year amounted to $191,000, odd ; our taxes range frgm 
 $12,000 to $14,000, an average of 5 per cent, upon the original investment of 
 $200,01)0, irrespective of other benefits from our operations. . And then there 
 are our supplies, purchased in this City, which are something like 950;090 k 
 year. There you have $ ]i)0,(XM) of cash spent in your midst. And vvliat do 
 we do besides that 7 Do you know anything of our trade? I am coming 
 to that presently. Is it in the interests of the public of Toronto that we 
 have facilities to do that work? We took out from this City 151,111 tons of 
 freight last yejir. We brought in 163,61.3 tom. The total tonnage that 
 we handled in that yard in 1879 was 314,724 tons. That tonnage 
 is equal to 31,472 carload.-, and if you will divide that by the working 
 days p« the year you will find that we bring in an average of 101 carloacls a 
 day. We handled 4,000,003 bushels of grain and 129,900 barrels of Bour. 
 It adds a fleet of vessels to your wharves. Look at the harbour dues and the 
 expenditure of th-jse vessels. We have brought down 9,974 aarloads of lum- 
 ber, and, with regard to general merchandise, in which ypu are oommeroially 
 interested, we have taken out nearly 40,000 tons. I only trouble you with 
 these statistics in order to try and persuade you, to appekl td you to con- 
 sider whether your interests are in complete unison or not with ours. So far 
 from there being hostility between us, there ought to be absolute oooperpr 
 tion. It is the dperation of roads and not construction of roa4s that, 
 benefits a city. It is not sufficient to build a nulway. We have built 
 our railii«ky— let us work it. And now let us talk about this question^ 
 enti-anoe. I was surprised to hear my friend Mr. Wills ^1k M he did. 
 Of course I know that men who do not belong to the legal profession, whether 
 they be of the church or of commercial standing, must be content fo take 
 the contemptuous crttioism of those who are learned in the law. However, 
 
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 I havono m'>re to say with rognrd to (lift stAinlard— tlio intellAotual itand-' 
 ard-^that \fr. WolN puis ii|)on men IHm* SValtflr Slianly, Muir, Swinyard 
 and Bryd){os, and the fli-eat Ron.itru(Stor of Cuna liun rondv — tVming, 
 when ho aayii that thny havo all uiado a mistake-. lie sweeps them all 
 away, an<i Hay^ that men Hf nuxlerute ability would have shown how much 
 better it wast to go through the Northern yitrd than olnewhere. 
 
 Starting from Parkdale we h»ve I0() feet. N{r. FIcminjr and myself and Walter 
 Shanly located the road where it is nuw, down to where the Toronto, Gray and 
 Bruce i^. We brought our line where it now is. Beyond all question we wet« 
 right. V(« tooc 100 feet as ]being necessary for our rriad. S««how.we have 
 spread out since. We hare gone SO or 60 miles to the north-e«st, and we hare 
 gone west, and have gone 33 miles with the North Himooe to the north, 
 until we have got upwards of 200 miles of road. We took* that 100 feet, 
 thinking it might be sufficient for our permanent way. It was of the 
 utmost importance then as now that our yard should not be cut to pieces, and 
 we told theOrand Trund that we would give them a right of way from Parkdale 
 over our 100 feet. I ask this Committee to come with me ; I ask them 
 to come from the City Hall Station up to Parkdale. You wil| understand 
 .it a great deal better by looking at it, and we will explain the whole thing 
 to you there on the spot ; and you will find from Bathurst Street all the 
 way up to Parkdale, with the exception of a miserable Emigrant shed, you 
 will find the grass growing. It is Oovernment land. It is running wild. It 
 u not even worth mowing. You will find a considerable width of land avail- 
 able for any purpose. It is comini: into manufacturing purposes it is true, • 
 but will any mbn tell me that the Cit/ can in the slightest degree be advan- 
 taged by intruding more lines on the 100 feet, when' there is vacant land on 
 the outside. You know not that railways have, ceased oouirng from the 
 west. Why not makia it 125 feet 'wide whilst you have vacint land? 
 How is it that this Credit Valley, except that they will not follow the in- 
 structions of Engineers, how js it that they could not see there is vacant land 
 tiiere ; and, without asking the Northern Or Ortmd Trunk, have gone to the 
 Government and said, Give us a license of occupation and we will have 
 nothing to do wiih those old Companies? They would simply have had to 
 put the fence back and the City would have had a railway approach of more 
 than 100 feet. My advice to you as a railway expert 'w, if there^ is 30 or 40 
 feet still to be had, never mind what railway to adtl it to, go and get it and 
 add it to your Railway property. You will have, Heaven knows, what more 
 roads. Look at your own growth in 15 years. I tell you, as a matter of 
 fact, that there is vacant ground upon which the grass is growing (and I will 
 •bow it to you to-morrow) «ll the way from Pjirkdale to vvithin 200 yards of 
 the Bathnrat Street, bridge. , 
 
 A year ago we reoeiv<;d a deputation at the request of the Credit Valley 
 Company, and a plan was brought out and discussed by those present, of 
 whom the Hon. Mr. Wellii was (me, and it was adopted all round, by which 
 • location was agreed upon between the Credit Valley Railway and my Com- 
 pany, and they left saying that they would put the agreement inu> writing, 
 
 V «s 
 
 le^ 
 
^ 
 
 15 
 
 but thAy never wrote, and the next thing wp found ouraelvei gibbeled In the 
 publio press an obatruating them. They then went to Ottawa and Med a 
 plan, and brought in their plan before the Privy Council. The Tlivy Coun- 
 
 ' ell sent to Mr. Shanly, your own engineer, in whom you should have confidence, 
 who laid a plan before the Privy Council, and the Privy Council adopted it. 
 
 i It was no* twenty uiiniitvs old when our Company declared their assent to it { 
 Htill we have been held up to rei'ironch ; still we seem to be chartred with 
 falsehood in naying what we have said. It is strictly the truth that we 
 pMsed a resolution, and so careful are we of misrepresentation, so terriljily 
 have we been oppressed by falsehood, that my Board were wise enough 
 to give a special order th(^ that resolution should be given into Mr. Laidlaw's 
 
 twn hands, so that there could be no escaping from responsibility. Now w* 
 re dragged into Parliament for what? I don't kno#. My oollenguea don't 
 know, except it is that there i« a desire, as expresited in the bill, to grab, 
 l^ow that we shall not stand. We are not yet bereft of the appeal to the 
 Courts. We are not yet without confidence in this Council, Qr without cAn- 
 fidence in the administration of affairs, and the Parliament Qf| Canada. 
 ^Ve believe that there will be here as there' a reoognition^lif vested 
 rights ; that they are sacred if properly established ; and therefore wq 
 «^e not afraid that if you gentlemen will go cautiously and with- 
 x)ikt prejudice into the whole question you will find that we have not done a 
 thing or turned a finger which anybody could truthfully uay was ill lantagon- 
 iitfi to the interests of the Credit Valley Railway. We are purely and 
 -essentially a Toronto railway. Wa have been mutually built up. It is our 
 g^ry to be able to say that this City has grown with us and we with it. We 
 haire cost you very little. You hold $2U(),U0D of our stock,- which at the 
 faikhest bid in the' market might possibly fetch you 5J percent, on the dollar. 
 Dol you recognise the value of that stock, if you assist people to contiscftte 
 ouit property? If you arp shareholders stand by your property. How can 
 you assist in defrauding uk ? llow can you sit here, as stockholders, and b« 
 u pjtrty to the confiscation of your property ? I feel strongly on this sub- 
 jec4 because I h'av} huld a responsible position for twenty-five years. 
 I hope 1 have naa<]e out a case. Until this agitation was got up by a trouble- 
 ttOuie corporation you neyer interfered with our property. 
 
 If they harl oome to the old Railways, lind said, we are coming into the com- 
 muditv ; if our friend, Mh Hickson, had been treated with ordinary Spur- 
 tesy ; if we could have escaped the scandalous gibbeting personally directed 
 against us: if thJey had Ipproaobed ns, with anything like honesty, sirs, 
 theytwould have been into this City long ago. Bu't I will ask you fairly to 
 consider, upon your conspience, if the humbugging is not on the other 
 side i Are. they in earnest about coming in at all ? I protest, upon my 
 consoience, that I do no| believe they want to come in. No. They have 
 held the Qrand Trunk an,d ourselves up to public odium, simply in order 
 that they should appear to be victimised. 
 
 They eould exerbise the powers of the Railway Law. Having now obtained 
 the judgment of the Privy ^'Ouncil for their location, they could have the 
 
 J 
 
is!>flaS5^'" '»"<^"7T»'7Ywn'~' ■ 
 
 16 
 
 l^■^ 
 
 ■omo renouroe ngainit uh tm you. They could nvrvjn u* wilh notice. They 
 coul<l foro6 their way. But you know perfectly well whiit lliny would h»T« 
 to do, and that U nil wo unit, that wo ahould be recouped whatever expendi- 
 ture we have made. 
 
 I will conclude by saying, that if you will be good enough to come and ae* 
 the Innl for youmelv.-H I will have a triiin many hour and day. It ahall 
 ■top at every foot of the way, if you like. You thall see for youmelveit. 
 You can auk the Credit Valley Uailway people, the Grand Trunk, or any- 
 bo<ly eUe, to come along with us. 1 tell you there Im vacant land. I ofter 
 you a train at your disposal, so that you may make a proper inveati(tation 
 into this caae, and come an«l look over the whole line for yourselves. 
 
 Mr. Caurls— -I am sonfy, after the able address of Mr. Cumberland, that Mr. 
 Uickson is not here, so that the Grand Trunk might be represented in th» 
 same able manner that Mr. Cumberland has the Northern. 
 
 I hold in mv hand here letters from Mr. Ijaidlaw, which wer* published in 
 Ottawa, in which he stated distinctly over and over again, all he wanted waa 
 an independent line to Bathurst Street, and that all he destired wa« the ua« 
 of the Grand Trunk tracks ti-oip there to the Union Station. 
 
 I will read to you the letters of Mr. Ijaidlaw, dated March 4th, 1879, March 
 10th, 1879, and April Ist, 1879. 
 
 I think from that time to this there has been a change of base, although 
 down to the present, LaidUw professes himself friendly to Hickson and 
 Cumberland, but all that he cares for is his bonus. From that time he has 
 been holding Us both up in the public press. The Globe has come down on 
 us. We have been accused of all kin* of evil, and there is not one tittle of 
 foundation in it. 
 
 I say with regard to the Grand Trunk, their intention is this : We do not 
 int<>nd to bo robbed of our land ; we do not intend that Mr. Laidlaw or Mr. 
 Cumberland or anyone else are going to take that lanci from us in any other 
 than a legal way. ^-- — — - 
 
 We are here for two purposes, which I ask to have separate and distinct. 
 I am here on the part of the Grand Trunk, after a great deal oi labour (I 
 have investigated the whole of the Esplanade question) and 1 am prepared, 
 ao far as the City is concerned, to meet them and give them every possible 
 information on the whole subject oi the right of way or of the water lot sys- 
 tem, from Bathurst Street to any other point that they like, but I object to 
 the City'a rights and the, Credit Valley Railway's petition being treated a* 
 one. We come here representing a strong corporation — the Northern is m 
 oomparatively strong corporation and the Credit Valley Railway a weak 
 4jorporation. There is this about it: The natural sympathies of every 
 eitiien, of myself, as well as everybody here, is in favour of a 
 weak eorporation, if it appears they are being crushed or kept down. 
 I feel that coming here we have a difficulty in getting justice, for the reason 
 that the natural feeling in every man's mind is in favour of the weak as 
 
■^^,^;\%- 
 
 '■"'T 
 
 17 
 
 Htfiilnxt thn Ntmnit. But mII I ni*k Ik li»ii play. All I u»k in that wf I..- tr«>«t. 
 r<l wlfh I'ftir juilgtnent, iiml ilmt, li<«c«iiNe we nro HtMiiir, llnrof'rc iiijuatio* 
 ahniiM nnt ho j|iv«*n tr> ui4. 
 
 Now I aHk to hiive thn two quefliionM n«>|.arnti><l. Th«» Bill (or wliN>li Mr, 
 LHitllnw iiMkR llip «>2.(lorMMl |»«>titlon of thJH ^joiinoil U not in thf» iiiterpxta of 
 the City, rn it in the interontu of thn City timt lh«« Gweinor-GeniTnI nnd 
 the Dominion Oovcmmi>nt Mhoiihl tnk« poMHUKMion of the Noitiiern ground t 
 Why, the City oUim thU Inn-I thenmelve*. Mr. Ltildlftw »««kii in hi« Bill 
 to hHve it hnn<ip(| ov*r to the Oovernor-inConncil. The Act pavn no. I 
 «ik if It i» in the interest* of thin City taemlonie n petition nikinit Iho Oot- 
 •rninent to lake poiiaeuion oi lamU which they claim 7 Wliat I a»>k Ih that 
 we should get fair play as between the Credit Valley Itailway nnd ournelvea. 
 I am not here for the Grand Trunk, who have done ho much for the City of 
 Toronto, to take any action hoatile to the City'* intercHt in any wiiy. Bi»t I 
 am prepared to show this, that it would he the grosHent breach of fuiili for 
 the City to endorse a petition nskinv the Govenior-inCounoil and the Crown 
 to take the control of landn »for which we hohl deeds from the City with 
 absolute covenants. The only thing that the Credit Valley Itniiway is in- 
 teiented in is this. There is no petitinn from the City to the Uidslatur* 
 mitkinfr any Act. We are not called in for that purpose. We are asked to 
 coiu£ here and give any information, as I understiinti, with the view of anj 
 future action by the City. But the prei«ent point is this; We are aske<l to 
 coMie here and attend a meeting! of the Executive Committee, called to con- 
 aider the petition I hold in my hand of the Credit Valley Itailway. And is 
 that couive to be adopted? I object to the interests of tlie City being 
 drawn in with them. It Ih a very captivatinx idea for the Credit Valley 
 Railway to draw in this whole kxplanade difficulty. If that is to be mad* 
 the main issue, "and if their petition is to be endorsed undT (luise of that, 
 see the effect of it. They are setting up ihe City's interest in ordei that 
 their own interests may lie^jjnder the cftv«»r of the City, brought before the 
 Houses Tlieir cnimenlioh is threefold. They ask in the first place the Act 
 which I will read to you ; and I ask if any Council is goj^g to pass it, when 
 I hold in my hands the title deeds given to the Grand Trunk Railway Com 
 pany, of the land from Brock Street east to York Street. We have paid 
 about fT.'ijOOO to the City. We have got the City's covenant against any 
 encumbrances, and thnt was given advisedly, after arbitration. 
 
 ^H. Wblu said the portion of the prayer Mr. Cassela referred to bad refor- 
 ebce alone to the Northern Railway Company. 
 
 MA Cassbuu- .The prayer of the petition is as aUted. It ought then 
 to be made as they intended it. I say it oould not be endorsed in that 
 fo,-m without a groaa breach of faith on the part of the City. Then I wil 
 take the third clauae— the petition aska three things^the third elauae ia. 
 " To enter upon and uae BO muoh,'^o." ^^ 
 
 I aay, gentlemen, there never has been a doul^Bit upon the rigHfaW* 
 hare the judgmenta of Vice-Chancellora Strong and Proudfoot, expreaaed 
 
 1 " 
 
 ■ff 
 
 -.i.-:;*5t. 
 
l^f^f Tj-^Y"^;"^'^' 
 
 18 
 
 upon lh« point, thut noHonbt trtr exIiJ*! uikhi It, •n.i » doubt h^ »•»•' 
 b«.n rmU^a un.il it U »ngriif.e.l Into thU p«Utlon, -o M to g«t und.r oorw 
 of lhi« .omHhing wbioh tl.t f«n«r»l Uw ftlro. th-oi. I will r*».l th« lUlI- 
 wny Acl. no«»> Mr. Hirong ami Mr. Prouilfnot hi»»« oon.trui..! Hint law, and 
 they •••y thi»l it iipplii-B «» one cor|K)n»tlon taking tJi« l«n<l of ftnoth«>r. ft 
 1. »Mtion« 5, una II of .ulmeotlon II. I wy whrn you com* to tli^' U»t 
 bi •noli of tli« |.«-tlllon, ther*. hiu n^-vei- li^eu » «loubt out u|)on it. Th« 
 Court. Uv« iletvrinine.1 It. An.l It i. *p|.W«at, after m coiuoion -.nw read- 
 ing of it, that a doubt never existed. 
 
 Now I pro|Mwe to iliow whut they really want thU Corporation to do. 
 I do not think any gentleinnn hor« know, what that licenne of oooupatlon 
 Ih, nnil hoty that llceni.« of occupation wa* obtained. Thut lioenie of ocou- 
 pution rxtemU from Queen Street to B«thunit Street, ff they gel at far aa 
 Bulhurit Street t under the General Hailway Act, they can ga UiroiiKh tha 
 Northern or Grand Trunk grounds. Th.-y have to arbitrate under the lUil- 
 wiiy Act. I'hey have to give notice and |«y coinpennatlon. But that lloenia 
 ot occupation ia given for that mile and three-qunrtera, an<l what «lo you 
 think they p.iy for itT They |my *IU0 a year to the Dominion Government. 
 An<Lv-|mt di»l Sir John Intcn.l by giving that license of occupation T U« 
 never inten.led to give them that licence of occupation if In point of fact 
 the hmd was not the UimI of the Crown. And I aay further that he grunted 
 the license of occupation under a iiirsrepreseniation of facta, not Inten- 
 tional I a.lmit. But It w«a on a mlarepreaenUtlon of facta j and 1 aay that 
 If he had known that there was vacant land from Queen lo Bathurst Street 
 aulHoient tohav«< enable.l them lo have placed their track they never would 
 havTgot It. My leomwl friend ooine* here and he aska to have the lioenae 
 of occupation that waa given confirmed ; aud they aak for the weight of the 
 City of Toronto to be thrown in with them. That licenae of occupation 
 ia given to them, aubject to any legal rIgl.U which the Northern or 
 Oracd Trunk may hereafter bo found to hi.ve with rei.pect to the 100 feet. 
 That ia the term on which the license is given, and It k pointed out by Sir 
 John that the lioenae would not be worth the paper it t^aa written on If the 
 other rallwaya had a legal right. 
 
 If the General Railway Law did not permit them to ^ bver that atrip, aa- 
 •uming It to bd the only land, then I say it iiMtuite right they should get 
 legialation. It would be quite right in thiTTntereata of the City that thej 
 thould be allowed in. But when they aak » licenae and they aay the O^v- 
 «mment own the land, and the Government aay If we own the land we wlU 
 give you whatever title we have, but you take it aubject to whatever title 
 the other Companiea have, and when we get a decree aWylng thla Court doth 
 "declare that the aaid plaintlffa, the Grand Trunk, are aelaed in fee almple^ 
 ♦to ," then I aay, geiitlemen, having Uken a licenae with the full knowled»/ 
 and noUoe that the Govemwent never intended to iiyure the Grand TrjHtk 
 or the Northe»> that if they bad the title to thia land they gave whatever 
 title they had j but the Credit Vidley Railway took it at tiie riak of the legal 
 fiiiitf UuMe twoCompMiiea may be found to poaaeaa. I aay tiioae legal 
 
 ; 
 
:£Sc: 
 
 19 
 
 ri||hU nr* d^Unntncd. It U (l*(flar<Mt IhAt no titl« p«^a«a by thn lio«nM. 
 Tlifty oom* lo this C!oiincil ixitwilliatiiniiinir, to f>n(lori« • |(«tUion to 
 th« ilogiA of CktpptuoiM, oaking ttmt th« llo«nM wliioh is fnntml oon- 
 ditioimlly, whioh ir^Ukitn auliipot to «ll Iffgal riKlits that may •xist, th«y 
 ■ilk tliani tocmlorto tbat, irt nnlor lh»t t|i«y nifty g«t by an '^ot ol VnAlm- 
 oi«nt, » lloctu* oonHrni«tl whioh 8ir John navor inlanUsd to give them. 
 It is sitid that Mr. Dalton McCarthy has K>v<^n m opinion, an<l that Mr. 
 froudfoot is all wrong. Mr. Dulton Mo(.'artliy ta wrong soaiffliuiM. I 
 adtuire his ability as wall aa most men, )>ut everybody knows th*t if Ifr. 
 Oalton MoCVjjcHiy makn» u|» hia mind, that th>ire is no Judge, from the Chan- 
 oellor down to tiiu Supreme Court, that he will think is right. But I have 
 the opinion of Mr. Blake. I have the opinion of other oounael the other way, 
 and I might as well argue that Mr. BlakeV opinion is of M muoh weight •• 
 Mr. McCarthy's. 
 
 They lake that license subject to our rights. Those rights are declared by • 
 Court of J jstioe, and until that decree is nverruleii it must be taken M 
 valid. Otherwise, trentirmi^n, j'ou must sit upon the jud^tmentof the Judge, 
 and we are to discuss whether ho in agnoti Jud^te or not , and we ore to aei 
 hint up against t(|« opinion of other oounNol, and of Mr. Dalton MoCitrihy. 
 I say, no, it is not to be done. But,' to come to (he point, as Mr. Cumberw 
 land stHte<l, Mr. Fmnk .Slmnly mn<f^ an atildiivit in this suit— so also did 
 Mr. Bailey-and he said this in his atHdavit: "The s<kld strip furnishee 
 practically the only approach for railway lines from the west to the water 
 frontage of the City." That is what Mr. Frank Shanly stated, and Mr. Frank 
 Bhanly was cross examined on that, an<l If the gentlemen wTll pardon me, 
 and if I nm not taking up too much time, I would just like to show, shortlyi 
 by Mr. Hhunl^'s and Mr. Bailey's own depositions, the fact that there is clear 
 land, from Queen htreet to Buthurst .Street, ready to Uy their track upon— 
 almoHt all prepared land — and they have only got to lay their track down. 
 Mr. Hh^njy swears there is fifty-three feet between the fence and the prison 
 wall, and when you get to the Emigrant Shed there is twenty feet, and all 
 you have lo remove is one plank. But the way Mr. Shanly puts it, to sum it 
 up. is this, "with fair engineering talent there is no difficulty in oonstructing 
 a track over that land." , 
 
 Everyone knows the line of the Prison. There is Capt. Prince's houa« 
 (showing plan), and he lioa got a fringmg of trees. Well, I say, what barm 
 would it do to take ten feet off tbat fringing of trees ? What odds does it 
 make to his comfort whether he has an additional lailway and on additional 
 ten feet added to the railway thoroughfare ? 
 
 Mr. Shanly's deposition shows the whole of this thing, and it showa, 
 in fact, that in Ottawa he made the representation that there waa 
 no other way of entrance into the City ot Toronto. He waa under 
 the impression that he waa only called upon to deal with thi* 
 ■trip, and therefore he did not point out to the Oovemment thai 
 there was vacant land. . I have Bailey'i examination. Not only doee 
 he corroborate Mr. Shiinly, but he shows that he had gone over thia . 
 
 i:g^i.,. rtAiM.-? 
 
^ 
 
 ■J 
 
 i 
 
 
 ■;? 
 
 I 
 
 
 ao 
 
 a-- ■ ■ T jg 
 
 ImmI, an.! J»i*»r original (iMl»»i»llrtn wm In put U upon «••« Un-I. Th*y h»»ii 
 got U Imo Ihtir hriMU timl w« h»v« no titl*. U !■ « iilo« thing to Ink. hold 
 or* ■trip ol our Urul thm i« nil n»*«l*. I* !• •» •^X »'»'«• »» '^y • ^'^'^ 
 wh»n lh# groumi U nII pr«piirr<l by u*. . 
 
 Now I iitki i» "ny g^ntUuwo hi-rf . knowing lh#.«« f»«U, g"Jug «« •ndo«« • 
 iifliiion to llii* CoMHiirtn. to ratify, to lmv« wi Aot pw-r.l, onrrylng out mh»i 
 Hir John n.«vi.r inirnd«Ki thry »houl«l ga? I wy, looking st th« (Imnd 
 Trunk'- liunhifw, it U tiihl that tli*y do not ut0*i ihi. in(» foot atrip, l-ook 
 •t th« «iiormou« inrrrM* wli«n thi- ChloiM* •Jiti.n.lon U built i Bml i» tliwlr 
 lun.l to b« wrMie.1 from tlmni wh«n th#r« i« l«n«l »»ciint that o«n b«i u«#«IT 
 Why !• tht* Or««.IU Vull^y to \w in « b«itt«r |io»U»on tlmn «ny on« tUm T Th^y 
 hiivA th«. |»o«t«*r, uuili-r lli« Hwllwiiy Act, to Uk«> th« Un«l. Why •howW they 
 M^k iip.'oiHl U-gi«l»llon T I bi« CoiHM'il i» not going to «>n<lor«« it. Of court* 
 it U in th« InlrroBt* of UKClly to have ll*r Hallway, hut if there U no ob- 
 nUilf in their way, then I My they »ht.ul«l not receive the support of thla 
 Committee, an.! that pe«UI"n ihouhl l»e thrown out \ an«l I aak it, Hrnilj 
 believing that^den the laom are known there la no nienitwr that will en- 
 doNe that pethlon. I know it U a .lifflcult thing, ^f»m ^^*^ J!*" '"*** 
 ■o muoii iiiii.l Hliout that petition. U la all very well IJ|i(Kke publib iyini*- 
 thv, with the view of blln«llng everyone to the true |»Hition of (he AaM-, but 
 thi' iaota are here pl.iin.an.l II you will take Mr.CuniberlaW.r. off.-r,Wou will 
 find the atateuient* Correct, in an. wer to quettlona with regardUo lh» 
 Korthem. If the City can get from the Northern theae landa or can jiet ihe 
 ■mount of that award, I can only aay an a clti»en, it will be a good thin»f for 
 our excbeqtier. But I ihink about fJ.WK) will be thrown away In the lltlg». 
 tlon of that question, beonuee I do not think there la the allgliteat chance, 
 proapect or pmiW^Uity of the City getting that j but aa Mr. Cumberland aaya, 
 whether It everPfcaed to the Railway by the order in Council dependa upon 
 whether It waa Ordnance lands. Thai ia a matter about which there i« • 
 good deal of-obsourity as to the facts. But outside of that altogether, sup- 
 posing you di«l lyle a bill agaimt them, how could you|WP them out 7 You 
 would h«»e to take the value of the land aa it existed SFthe time they loo 
 it. If you could turn them out you would have ta paylheih for the val 
 of their lmptt>v«3toenta;. A < ; . * 
 
 The poaltloit sbori^ih|rtbla : The Ordnance authorltlet ttJ6Ewhat#v*r land 
 - ,:?5yiBk j.u^poeea, artd, amongst otfiers, this. In th» 
 ytit^l^n Qovemment a ceKaln piece of land 
 [f; oiilytftxtended to the bank. If thai 
 tj^da the property on which their 
 to thflnyntfidian Government. Then 
 
 ui v™««..~« .~- -r J, whlo^eaU in the Prorinoitl Govern- 
 
 mrnr5"tb»rday oertlin landVwhlcli are tpeclfled in the aohadule of t!i« 
 Act. iluit^did not isover the laoda on which the Northevii|buildingB are 
 •Moted, M you will iee by looking at it. And if it did not tKto, it atill re- 
 mained ouUtanding in the OrdnancA autboriiiea. I hold in my bAnds the 
 original p«t«nt of the City of the water loU, letting them out by metewi d 
 
 they required for 
 year 1836 they gav 
 which, it is conten 
 oontention of th<' 
 buildings were aituati 
 tb« Ordtianoe Vbstinf ' 
 
 fe.-. 
 
 , ;v-, 
 
 ••iT. 
 
 ■mJ^ 
 
 rfc 
 
r" -ssf^mrwfVtT- 
 
 i -. 
 
 31 
 
 
 ..*! 
 
 
 IdU I »ii«l th« Nurtliwrn w»|i»p loU «r« not tiiMilliH). 
 
 mr ImikU, m lo K«|ili«iiivl<i Nlr«i«<t. U Wm nrlgliwllv lOO 
 tkl, 4'i l>«l WM4 k1 ^n ii|i In iht) Or^ii*! Trunk Itulwiijr 
 
 Hflil down (0 tlio |*rv«4rnl 
 
 tMHtnda. But WtUtf mil Itk* In lfi« Northarn |iri»|i«rt3r •! *lt. Thu till* 
 (if (li« (Uljr, v««VmI liy an Ant of l*«rllitin«nt, »«t« out l»f ili«tinot tA«*l<>ii mm! 
 bniintU «ll till 
 
 With 
 
 ffSt 
 
 Oaiiif^j^^^^liiil (liHrniU from Br<N'k H(r«itl Hflil ilown (0 tlio 
 
 ion.' An Aflt WM |iN««^<l ituthoriilnff tli« City to t«k« oil th« 
 
 t l'i|*fW«t •••t'of York Ntiwrt, ■ltlioui(li. in tli« r«Hilt«)| or tlm Aot, 
 
 in iitthn th»iii to t«k«« 124 f^«t from Br«>ok RtrfvV ■lj|> *'<* ^*y <l<iwn> 
 
 But th«»C|ly, by their «I««n|, iiiMr«ly nivit tiM* I84 f«w)t Viiat of York Htr»«l, 
 
 •o thitt RmiiUiiimIa Htr«^t rxi^ta mm a iilrrtit, (M) f««t In wi<Uh, fr«tni York 
 
 8tr«>««t to iiiYwk H«r<>«>t { iH-yohd tlwl, 4H4 f««l. rhrn thnt in tiid titl«>. I'ho 
 
 Omnil Trunk th«n h«v« «U«tU of th«* whols |>ro|>«rty, mul thry hMV« « right 
 
 . %o arnu ISii|tliin««i4 8ir#«t ■• (tfl^n m th#y l^k*. ^~ 
 
 Th« other queatlon which hM 'jbven nilti«><l ia this 1 With rt'gurd (<• tlie .lohn 
 Street iihi>4l. I may any withir*Kiiril to ihitt, thHt ah**! wua k^iit »t tlia in- 
 ■unciM of -til* ehivf Mi^rohsnia qf Toronto. 
 
 Th« itnt) *M*t of P^Rter Hire«t mf» given up long ti«ror« I8M. 
 
 Wtth regitrd t/k the Or«n(i Trui^k entrance (mm Queen Htreet to Bntllurat 
 Street, the noint i|hortly wm thia^ that th« location waa taken at the inalnno* 
 . of ifaiia Don^tMon Oovernment. [They wer« 4 yeara aroitniting m to whiok 
 way th« Kailwayji ahouhl come'fti, und there wu an order direoting the 
 Grand Trunk to jmakn terma mi^ the Northern. An<l it waa puraunnt to 
 th»t dreotion thiat the agreeme^ wm made between the Northern and 
 Q,rand Trunk 10 Iix)at9 wheie they fere now. 
 
 ' . '■ 4 ' ' ■ 
 
 The question ia iukod, if there have been negotiationn or olfera to the 
 
 Credit Valley to come in on our line and get to the Union Station T I aay 
 
 there have been; nnd I will tell you whaC waa offeried. I apeak not with 
 
 m|ieh <^ntointy. | have telefr^phed for all ,the oorreipondenoe betweea 
 
 ,g|||||ckadih jmd Laidlaw, but, unfortunately theSnotioe waa too ahort, and I 
 
 •^ave not got it. f~ 
 
 If r. Ilickaon gave Mr. Laidlaw everything thfet he deaired at one time. Mr. 
 Hiokaon aaked that the Union 8tation ahould be utiliied by the Credit 
 Valley Hallway. That waa manifeatly benefloial to the Grand Trunk, and 
 one would think it waa manifeatly b<^nefioial to the Credit Valley aa well. 
 
 Mr. Hiokaon made ia st^ulation alao that traffic brought by the Credit 
 Valley Railway ahovld b« throltli pver the Grand Trunk aa going eaat. At 
 t^ia time Mr. Laidlaw had arrived at the point when it auited hia purpoae 
 to become an agitator for public ay mpathy. He immediately writea to the 
 papera that the Grand Trunk Are trying to put the aoriws on, and binding 
 ^him down to trafflo latea, Ao. There waa nothing ot (he kind. All he aaked 
 for waa that arrangementa ahoukl b« made for tnMa to go over the Grand 
 Trunk eaat But Mr. Laidlaw, inataad of acting m a raaaonable man, imm*' 
 diately broke off negotiations 1 oan pn»ve •!! thia. He pubUabed, m 
 
 w - ■ w 
 
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^^W':'v"f^'"-V -. ,■;:■: 
 
 23 
 
 privatfl letter of Mr. Iliokson'ti with tome things that were not intended 
 for the publia ejre. 
 
 i believe I am safe in saying, although I am not very sure about it, that even 
 at the present time the Omnd Trunk are carrying in their traffic for no- 
 thing, or I might say cost. I am told that there are letters before the 
 Council showing that (here is nothing charged more than it would cost 
 Ihem if they hauled it themselves. 
 
 In answer to Ald. Morris — The Qovernment asked us to treat with the 
 Northern, and io consideration of that what we did- was we gave up our 
 other location—the Act of 1865 shows all that. We treated with the 
 Northern, and we had to pay them. At that time the road was not com- 
 pleted from Brock Street to Queen Street. The Northern, Oreat Western, 
 and the Grand Trunk mode arrangements with Mr, Frank Shanly for the 
 completion of this strip, embracing 100 fee^. They paid to Mr. Frank 
 Shanly, I think, |75,000 for the joint structure between Queen and B'ook 
 StreelH over which the Credit Valley seeks to go. It was between the diamond 
 and Bmck Street the greater part of the expenditure Was incurred. It was 
 done at the suggestion of the Government. The Governmient' treated the 
 Kdrthem as owners. These negotiations began in the year 1856. The re- 
 port of the I>ailway Oommissionera was made in 1858 some time, and that 
 report was proved before the Vice-chancellor. The agreement was recog- 
 nized and sai^ctioned by the Government. That is ail I have to say, and I 
 thank you for the patient hearing you have given my case. 
 
 Mr. McmiLLUMs, City Solicitor — I had no expectation of being called upon, 
 and I simply appear at your request to state what the position of the City is in 
 * the matter. We have had a good deal of duot thrown over our position one way 
 and another. We have three points of view to look at. In the first place we 
 only come into this in consequence of our claim to this property lying between, 
 Bathurst and Brock Streets. In the next place you have to consider what is 
 ^e interest of the Cfty in the matter as to getting this dispute between the 
 Railway Companies adjusted f and in the third place I suppose from the 
 justice of the matter but perhaps Mr. Cu'mberland would say that is th* 
 first view to be taken. Now with reference to our position, because that in 
 reolly what I am supposed to address myself to. Our pdsition is ffhis : We 
 acquired the license of occupation on the 9th December^ 1852. An Order in 
 Council wain, passed on tue 29th of March, 1853. A license of occupation 
 was given to the City of Toronto of the property lying between Bathurst 
 and Brock Streets— that on the top of the bank as well as the Water Lots 
 below. We are told that Vioe-Chancellor Proudtoot's judgment has con- 
 cluded us in the matter. That jndgment goes to this extent, that the 
 land lying between Queen and Bathurst Streets was Ord^^^ce land ; that it 
 J^ecatne Tested in Uie Ooremment; that the Government subsequently had 
 certain transactions, passed certain Acts, made certain Orders in Council, 
 entered into certain agreements, and accepted from the Northern Bailway 
 a small snm of money, and that upon payment of that sum the Northern 
 

 23 
 
 Ruilway Company became absolutely the ownen of the property. But that 
 doei not apply to (he property belo# Bathurtt Street. The ground that I 
 take, in the first pince, is, that these Water Ijatt never «vere Ordnance 
 lands. My Inarned fiiend has referred you to an opinion of Mr. Uluke's 
 That ofiininn ha<l nnihiiig tu do>4vi^l) the City of Toronta It wan an opin> 
 inn given in reference to Indian lands in the lower part of thi^, country 
 and the ett'eot of the opinion is thiM — and the Crowrn Lands Department 
 have acted u|K>n it — that water lots did not become Ordnance property. 
 In the first pla;e all properties belonjj^ to the Orown. There has been 
 no actual dedication. Nor is there any evidence of such dedication; and 
 these water lotd were never claimed by the Oidnanoe Defmrtment prior to 
 the Order in Council of the 9th December, 1852; and the ciaiai waii not 
 acknowledged by the (government when made. 
 
 Mr. Wbixs — If my learned friend will permit me to interrupt him, the most 
 conclusive argument upon this subject is, when thi s City obtained the Lease 
 . of the Garrison Common, who did they obtain it from 7 From the Dominioa 
 Government. But front wliom did they obtain the water lots in front of thia 
 land ? From the Ontario Government. 
 
 "Mfi. McWii.UAM8 — The water lots, which we new occupy 'vith our wharf con- 
 nected with the Exhibition, are situate ini front of Ordnance lands. The Gov- 
 ernment at Ottawa refused to deal witn those water lots. We had to go 
 to the Ontario Govenfiment, and they gave us « lease of them. The 
 Northern Railway Cbmpany argue tkiit the Ordnance Department, having 
 had obcupation of these lands, were the owners of the water lots in front. 
 I say the Government had never recognised that position. When the Govern- 
 ment were dealing with these lands, and they were taking over all the lands 
 that belonged to the Ordnance Department^ those water lots were jgiot in- 
 cluded in the schedule of Ordnance lands. It is only with respect t(f "these 
 water lots that we are directly interested. The way we were brought into 
 this matter was this : An application was made to the Council of 1879 to 
 concur in the application of the Credit Valley Railway to the Crown Lands 
 Department of Ontario for a right of way over these water lots. It is 
 now for you to say whether you propose, so far as you can, to grant that, in 
 vWir of all that has been done during the last 25 years. Mr. Cumberland 
 has told you it i» very unfair for us to come now, after ^ years, and aslc for 
 eotupensation. We have been asking for this ail the time. We made ap- 
 plication for the patent to these lands. It was fought. Counsel) Appeared 
 on both sides. The matter was finally decided by Sir AlexwqBer Camp- 
 bell, in 1867, that those Acts of Parliament to which you have jbeen refer- 
 red, authorising the Order in Coiincil, did not give to tiie Northern Railway 
 these lands. He held in the same judgment that these w:ere not Ordnance 
 lands, and we were then sent to arbitration ; and an arbitration proceeded. 
 We did not want the lands. ¥[• wanted the valuei of the Umis. We . pro- 
 ceeded with the arnitration, and in 1874 an award was made^ Then the 
 Northern Railway turned round and refiued to recognise the pveeeedings, 
 •nd the City was advised that before theyeoold enforpe the award thej 
 

 24 
 
 must get the p«t«nt\»nd appliofttion wm made to Ottawa for a patent. 
 They Mid «t Ottawa\h«t they had nothing to do with it; and application 
 wa« then nia<le to the Grown Land» Department here. That iH tlie position 
 I found the matter in, irt 1876, when I became City Solicitor. The North- 
 ern, the Grand Trunk, and I beliete the Western and the Toronto, (Jrey k 
 Bruce, had all notified U\« Government th^ they were opposing our 
 application. 
 
 We had been fighting as bestWe could, getting our case into the best pos- 
 sible shape ; and when the opportunity of getting the benefit of the Credit 
 Valley Railway counsel and of the Credit Valley Railway contest — and I can 
 say I was qaite willing to avail myaelf of it — and when I was asked, Is it in 
 the interests of the City of Toronto to concur in this application of the 
 Credit Valley to the Government ?> I undertook and agreed to represent 
 the City of Toronto in fighting tbig\matter out in the Crown Lands Depart- 
 ment here. 
 
 That is the way in which we have Wecome projected into this contest, 
 and the City of Toronto has had the benefit of the counsel, before referred 
 to, of the fight that was mode in the Crown Lands Department. 
 
 The application of the Credit Valley wailway Company made in th* 
 Crown Lands Department here is nowXpending for judgment before 
 the Crown Lands Commissioner. I stateXthis so that you will un<ler- 
 stand distinctly what your position is under this license of occupation. 
 I say we are entitled to be compenfateu for tlione lands, and that 
 is what we arw contending for. I have simply been instructed by 
 the Council to have this claim put right. You have fought it out at Ottawa, 
 Jind the Honourable Commisfeioner of Crown Linids tol«l you thnt we were 
 entitled to it. The Esplanade Act, confirming W«e license of occupation, 
 declares that we are entitled to it, and that the i-ai^ways can occupy subject 
 to compensating us fo the lands. 
 
 The position of the mattei- is this, gentlemen: Up to the present the 
 Government have always recognized your right to the title, but owing to 
 the obstructions thrown in our way we have been unJLble to get the matter 
 in a proper position. Mr, Cassels has referred to thA Railway agreement. 
 That agreement has nothing to do with the title to the land. That agree- 
 ment was entered into between the Northern, Grand Trunk and Western 
 with reCerence to the location of the tracks, and that agreement ia ooufirm 
 •d by an Act of Parliament, but it has nothing to do wilh titles. 
 
 Mr. Wills— I am sure from what has been said you must have seen plainly, 
 that the whole drift of the arguments of the Grand Triink and Northern 
 has been to the effect that Uiere u no possible difficulty on their paitm 
 the way of tha Credit Valley getting into the City. Ndw I would like to 
 ask Mr. Cassels whether tha Grand Trunk Railway havb ever offered to 
 giv« us a right of way through the Grand Trunk ground tolour water lots. ^ 
 
 Mb. CAsaiu— I will tell you what we did (^er. We offered to give you • 
 
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26 
 
 riKlit of way we had made 9unielveii ; tlie use of our water lot ; and alfo 
 of our elevator. 
 
 Mr. Wrlli^— The qiu^stton I asked wan tliia, did tli^y ever offer ua n right 
 of way through their ^mundn to our water lot— that is to any — to oaf 
 ti>rininal station groun«l?' They iiave never offered to do so, either 
 with cnm|)«n8ation or without. That in the position of the O. T. B. 
 Now, what is tlie attitude of tiie Northern? I will read you the lt>tte 
 attaoHed to the large plan of tli* Northern Raflwny grounds, which to 
 on your wall. (Ife reads the letter.) I will ask Mr. Cumberland if h« 
 mtans there that he will lor compensation give us any portion of his ground* 
 between Bathurst and Brook Streets ? ^ 
 
 Mr. Cumbkrland— It is one thing to give you a right of way, and another 
 ling to give you a right in fee. You asked to be allowed to pass over. Wer 
 I we would let you pass over — let you have a through right of way along 
 ^>".i'"Jife«! location of Mr. Shanly. ' 
 
 \- ' -^K. Wkli.8— What I ask is this : Are you willing to give us a right of way 
 '* through your land from Bathurst to Brock Street 7 
 
 . .^ Mr. CaHBRRLAMD— It just depends upon what value you attach to the w«rd 
 give. The resolution, passed by dur Board, is clear and precise, and any 
 man of moderate ability, to use your own expression, would understand what 
 it means. It means Mr- Shanly's plan, as approved by the Privy CounoiL 
 : What more do you want? What I say is this : You can come where Mr. 
 Shanly recommends that you shall be allowed to come, and where the Privy 
 Council has given you authority to come. 
 
 ' Mr. 'WBI.I.S— Mr. Cumberland is fencing with the question. The question 
 thai I asked was this : Whether by that resolutiorf or by any other resolution 
 they are willing now to give us a right of way over anv portion of the depot 
 grounds occupied by them, between Bathurst and Brock Streets ? 
 
 Mr. Cumberland — Not an inch. 
 
 Mr. Wells— I have at last got a definite answer. Then, if the Qrand Trunk 
 will not give us a right of way east of Brock Street, and if the Northern will 
 not let us through their lands, I would like to know how we are to get to the 
 grounds? 
 
 Mr. Gassilb — Under the Oeneral Railway Ad 
 
 Mr. Wills — Why not do it without compelliiig as to Iwve leoonrse to the Oeneral 
 Bailway Act ? Do you want to be compeU«d to do it 7 
 
 Mr. Ccmbirland.;- We are willing to go to arbitration. 
 
 Mb. Wills — ^That is a very remarkable admission, bat I fear it would mean very 
 little if put to the test. We are not at all rare as to the right of the Bailway 
 Committee of the Privy Connoil. If those two Railways admit that the Bailway 
 Committee of the Privy Comcil have the right to give as the line which we aik, 
 why in the name of common sense don't they give it to as without patting m and 
 them to that trooble ? We are not to be caught ia that trap. It means an appeal 
 
26 
 
 
 I -^ 
 
 from Court to Court. It m«M»i • d.-lur of yr.ni, and thou«i.cl« of dollmm in eoiti. 
 Will th(»e ComiMMile. agree lo admit iho right of tli« lUilway Coramlltiw to mttl« 
 the question? No, tli.-y w<.nt. llecauiw they do not wl«h to deprive them^clvea 
 of tiMit power of appeal to the Court* wiilch would ba «» dlnastroui. to ni. 
 They my that wo tan tfot land from tho Ontario Oovernmnht, and comii down 
 to within aoo yardu of Bathur-4t Street. 1 d«»nt know wliethtr wo can get 
 that land from tlic Oovernm>nt or not. Land which hiM Wen devot.-d to a 
 public puriHwe lilie tliat tJiey will very probably keep until the very laHt renort 
 ia had, and then perhapn refuse it. -Thit ii« the position which the Oorurnment 
 will no doubt take. Hut in what better poaition would we be, even if we witj to 
 got that land from the Ontario aovornm^nt? Tliat l« art.r we got to witliln 200 
 yarlH of' B.4thurHt Street ? Do yo* intend that we ahouUi Mop there 7 ;rhcy wujild 
 not then let an through the Northern Biilway Depot ground, aad we would be then 
 in JuH aa bwl a poHition aa eVer, The i.lmple facta of tho queiiti.m come down to 
 thiK, and Mr. Cumlwrland'H rhetoric, if prolonged for a week, will not make it other- 
 wim-, tiUt between tliem both wo cinnot get ilown to whero we dedre to go. 
 The Justice of tiie caae, tho extraordinary exigencies of the case, demand from ibo 
 City, that some immudiate stops should be taken whereby this Company can 
 have a right of way to their waU'T lot. 
 
 It lias been sUte«l that I cast doubt on the saiU or the talent of certain engineert 
 whose names have been mei.tioneil. I did nothing of the kind. No man rcspccta 
 mofj than I do the talent of those engineers. But if any man looks at their 
 nports thoy will at once see the incompleteness of the state of facts which must 
 harebeen subraittwl to ihem. I have the reports here. They had not the proper 
 ihcts laiifl before them. I will go farther and say that thoy bati a wrong atate of 
 fitcts laid bsforo them. In every ca-e the alternaUve was presented to them of a clear 
 right of way through the Grand Trunk ground without crossing a single track. The 
 report laid before those engineers stetes that the Credit Valley rijfused to take that 
 itMskwUch is perfectly easy, and persist In taking the track through the Northern 
 Hallway grounds; but 1 say that the track through the Grand Trunk grounds is far 
 . mere complicated, and crosses a great many more tracks than does the track 
 through the Northern Railway ground*. 
 
 If anything can illnstrate the hnmbogging of this whole thing by tha Northern, 
 i^ Is that very map on your !W»I1— where you will see the track of the Credit Valley 
 ia mwnlted to three time* tba width of the other track. ^ 
 
 Ma. ConaiBLAKD— It Is precisely according to your own plan. 
 
 Ma. WiMJ— I think the skill' of the dranghtsman who made that plan was 
 ; simply directed to ta)(e an unfair adTantage of a scale npon another plan, and not 
 with tho Tlew of allowing the aetnal state of things. 
 
 Tra Kaomoa o» tm Noktwwi— I am afraid M». Welh do not know what he la 
 talking «toat. that plan itas made by »e, and every Incli gf it Is correct. The 
 Credit Valicy right of way, 16 fcet in width, ip put on from their own plan, fyled 
 In the Ciwwn l4mda i>epartmcnt, and signed by tlieir own Engineer. Vx,, Wella 
 apiHwently ««niot„tell the difference between a railway track and a strip of land. 
 Mr . Jones here pradncod the Credit Valley plan referred to, and abowed that it was 
 ' identlcat with the map «i.l|he wail. 
 
 ~i 
 
87 
 
 Mm. WitL»-Th«t ii • quibble unworthy of Mr. Jonci, He knows perftotlj well 
 tba| the line on our plan was not intended to ihow merely thQ tnwk— that in the 
 me/^ width of the ralU-but the *hole apace noceiiRary for paaaing trains— nay U 
 or 14 feet. If the other tiacks upon that plan represent merely the width of the 
 Iron track, our track .hould be upon the aame icale. Mr. Jonea knew perfectly 
 well that we only want one track through that ground. I Uy it U un&ir to 
 repreaent it in the way they do upon that m^, ihowing our track to be threa 
 time* the width of the Northern tracks. 
 
 The hour i. so lata that I cannot prevail upoa myself to detain the Oommittaa 
 longer. 
 
 With reference to Mr. Cumberland's stolement of the enormous trafflo of the 
 Northern if they do as much business as they sUte, if they ayerago 106 cargoes 
 per tilem. If they bring into the City four million bushels of wheat each yew If ther 
 bring in nearly 10,000 carloads of lumber, this only shows what a largo amount of 
 business the Credit Valley Railway have every prospect of doing, and what an 
 enormous traffic these gentlemen are endeavouring to keep out of the City. 
 
 Ma. BoDLTOM-If the Committee wi^l receive the petition and read it, they will 
 see there is no montipn made of compensation. 
 
 Ms. Wills— The question of compensation is fully provided for in the rtU. 
 Ma. CuMBiswKD— It is very desirable the Committee should have the Bill for 
 which it is asked of them to endorse a peUtion. I am startled to learn that we 
 have only seen three clauses of the Bill. You are asked, as a Municipal body 
 to endorse a thing that you have seen but a part of. 
 
 Ald. Mobris (on behalf of the City Council)-I understand you derived your title 
 
 from the Act of 1860. Have you paid taxes on it since 7 ' 
 
 Mr, Cdmurlaxo— ^Ever sincel 
 
 Ald. Morris— How have you been assessed 7 
 
 Ma BouLTON — As the owners. 
 
 Ald. MoRR.s_Then, as to yourself, Mr. Cumberland, you can answer this question 
 You say there was il.'iO.OOO reserved at the time the property was revested, und.^ 
 this Act of Parliament, and deposited by you with the Beceiver-Oeneral ? 
 Mr. CoMBRBLAiiDi-Yes, there were two sums of je60,000 each— jE50,600 of new 
 capital, which was appropriated to pay the floating debt of the Company-and the 
 provision was, that if that ^60,000 was insufficient to pay the whole, it was to pay 
 the debts pro rata. It was in the hands of the Receivet-Qjaieial to demand the. 
 payment of the £50,000, 
 
 Ald. Mosau—Wbat harbours in 1869 did your road touch upon f 
 Ma. CcMBiRLAND—GolAi^ood and Toronto. 
 
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