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Mr. CAREALL moved, "That the construction of the Pacific Railway having formed the principal condition upon which British Columbia entered the Canadian Confederation, every reasonable eifort should hare been made by the Gxivernment of the Dominion to satisfy the people of that Province that fwtb would be kept with them ; but this House regrets to find that whilst incurring, or ready to incur, immediato expenditures of several millicnH of dollars not needed, or of doubtful utility, the Government IWB failed to proceed vigorously with the cona^ruction of our great natioubl inter- ooeanio railway, which is so essential to the material advancement of all the Pro- vinces of the Domihlon, as ^ell as to the early consolidation of xioUtical and social union among the whole i>aopIe."— He said he would claim the respecttul attention of the House on this salnect. He might be aomewbat (Uscursivei but he ntuki cMm the indulgence of hon. gentlemen, ioas- muoh as he had troubled tlie House very Uttie during thA^pfiBsest sessipa. More- over, the Bulotject had grown to be of Q ntch momentous proportions, that it was watobed with intense interest at i anxiety by those who were instrumental in con- summating the confederation between Britiah Columbia and the older provinces. They had watoh<°d with a great deal of interest and anxiety the proceeding as the terms were being negotiated in Eng- land by Sir George Cartier and Hon. Wm. Maodougall for th? acquisition of the North-West Territories, and at" the same time they endeavoured to overcome the opposition tof those who w^ere adverse to the entrance of British Columbia into the scheme of Confederation. Those who composed the population of that Proviuoe at that time might be divided into three classes :— The Canadian section, who were very large, and. devoted to their flag tauL their country, and who felt that it wtm of the first importance, if the Dominion was ever to be a success, that Britiah Colom' bia should become a portion of the Con- federation at as e^rly a moment as pes- Btble. The Hudson Bay Company ■»- a wealthy, powerful oorj^oration, posseacihg all the influence acquu-ed by many yean of control in that country, and who from Conservative notions were opposed to Confederation, as they wished to hold the odony for as long ejpeiiod M jpceuUe as a fur preserve. They mtf fMti|re opponents of the soheme of Oenfederi- tSm. Then t£ere were the offi^aie wlio^ received tbeir appointments fixini Bpwiii^ m^ MliiMM tititiiiUmt ■ne^ idii«iiiiiiilliiil ing Street, who fougbt tooth and nail against the acqiiiBition of that territory by the Dominion of Canada : and tlioso who worked with the sole object of Confedera tion in view, and, in order to soften the opposition and malevolence of their op- ponents, found it necessary to discuss the matter on a fiiioncial basis, and prove that British Columbia would be financially benefitted by entering the Confederation. Among the strongest reasons urged in /avour of their giving their assent to the incorporation of that Province with the Dominion, was, that a railroad would be built across the Continent; that it had been promised when Nova Scotia and New Brunswick entered the Confedera- tion, and if the people of British Colum- bia wished to make the Dominion a har- monious whole, the railway should ter- minate on the Pacific. Amongst the strongest reasons which prompted other loyal Canadians, as well as himself— and no man surpassed him in loyalty to the national flag— was, that emissaries from the United States had come amongst them, and were pressing them to annex with the Republic. One of these gentle- men, while at Victoria, said the policy of the United States in purchasing Alaska was to consummate the absorption of British Coluiabia by the Republic. This hastened the actions of those who were working in favour of Confederation. A delegation came to Ottawa, and the con- ditions upon which that Province would become a part of the Dominion were laid before tiie Government. These condi- tions were then submitted to a Committee of the Privy Council, consisting of Sir George Cartier, Sir Francis Hinoks, and Hon. Mr. Tilley, on the part of the Canadian Qovemment, and the three delegates— tha present Governor of Bri- tish Columbia, Dr. Helmukeu, and him- self (Mr. Carrall). At that time Sir John Maodonald was at the point of death, and he was not responsible personally for the terms, although bis Cabmet were responsible to the world for them. They discussed all these questions carefully and frankly as any gentleman would under such important circmnstances. The construction of a graving dock was one of the conditionB submitted, and the Canadian Government were asked to give a guarantee of five per cent, on £100,000 sterling in ten years for the purpose. It was thought by some of the British Col- umbians that the Canadian tarifi being higher than the Columbian tariff, they might get permission to allow the Colum- bian tariff to remain in force for a period of ten years, unless the Ijejriiiature of that Province thought differently. To make the conditions more harmonious, they agr3ed upon ten yonrs as the limit for the c . nstruction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He had stated on a pievioua occasion in this Chamber, and he desired to repeat it now, as one of the deiegatea who were present on that occasion, that that ten years was not put info the tcnna of Union as an absolute limit for the con- struction of the railway, but it was put there as a bona fides that the Government would commence the road, and carry it on to completion as quickly as could bo without injury to the interests of the country. He appealed to the reiiorter to take down his words correctly as he stood up in justification of the course pur- sued by the late Government on this question. Then as to the commencement of the construction of the road, he had thought tlie time was rather short, but they thought thoy knew more about the country than subsequent events jjroved they did know. The late (iovernment had been reviled and charged with jeo- pardizing the future of the Dominion by giving such ruinous terms, and they were accused of breach of faith . He appealed to hon. gentlemen in vindication of the late Government if they had not done all they could to keep faith with British Columbia, when they had their surveyors at work in that Province before it was a part and parcel of the Confederation. The news brought back by the telegraph to British Columbia produced a reaction in favour of Confederat ion . Geographically speaking, the Dominion, in the accession of that Province, obtained a seaboard in the West, without which we could in no sense compote with a nation like the United States ; and iu the Confederation of British Columbia with the Dominion the late Government achieved a victory in the interests of the Dominion as im- portant as that which Wolfe achieved at Quebec. The railway itself was locked upon as a great national undertaking— a natioual necessity; and the British Col- umbians understood that it was actually, prospectively, and imfdiedly to be con- structed to the base of the Rocky Moun- tains, whether British Columbia came hito the. Confederation or not. What would hav^ been the position of the great West to-day had there been a railway continued in there long ago ? H Lord Selkirk, who started a settlement there many years since, bftd JKone with the same energy to ' t any of ILo countries on the seaboard, like California, ( iape Town, or AustmUa, where they would have the facilities of railway or water transportation, he ventured to Sivy the settlement to day would have been a populous and thriving colony. Then came a distressing period in the history of the Dominion— the failure of the Allan Bcbeme to build the railway. He would not challenge the sympathy of hon. gentle- men in this room in response to that, but he would express bis own individual opinion, when he said he looked upon the failure of the Allan scheme as a national calamity. It was a i)relude to the fall of Sir John Macdonald's Government That Government, whatever their policy, wore, with respect to their tariff or their foreign policy, straightforward to British Colum- bia. The new Government came into power, and the first etepa they t'ok— be desired to speak more kindly of them than his duty to his Province would per- mit-was to concoct the Edgar mission. He had no doubt that all hon. gentlemen were conversant with the details of that mission; but as their minds bad been occupied vvith so many subjects since then, he desired to make an alliision to it. It was well understood by the people of British Columbia that they were not to insist that the railway was to be com- pleted in ton years ; but the Government I wished to make a point out of it, and hence the Edgar mission was undertaken to enable the Ministry to go to the people of Ontario and say :— " We have gone to British Columbia, and we have relieved the country of the terms imposed on them by the late Government ; we have made better terms with British Columbia, and saved the Dominion." They sent Mr. Edfisar over, uncredentialled, to negotiate with the Provincial Government; but when he was asked to show his authority he refused to do so. When the question was asked the Premier if he knew Mr. Sdgar did not present his credentials, the Premier's reply, as given in the House of Commons, was—" I became aware of it a week ago." lie coquetted with Cjlum- bians to endeavour to make them believe in the honeatyand eamestness of purpose of the present Government, and beguile them into making some proposition whiah could be used in the interests of the He- form party. These negotiations were not carried on with much grace or propriety on either side, and the Premier of the Dominion exhibited a great deai of petu- lance and irritation, and broke on all negotiations by abruptly recalling his ambassador. That ended the Edgar migsion. Then, of course, the people who had discovered that he had coma there simply to spy out the countrj', and without power to enter into any negotia- tions, felt considerable resentment at the Government and the people of (.'anada. They which, by the terms of union, the country was committed. The Committee remark with regret that the Assembly of Brltlsli Columbia should have expressed their (mtlri' agreement with the views and statements set forth in the minute of the Kxecutlve Council of that Province, dated January 4th, 187(1, which, besides some allegations and arguments substantially re- peated In the utldress, contains, with roferenoo to the transmission of the minute of Council of (September 2Uth last, imputations upon tlie honour and good faith of tho Canadian Gov- ernment so gross that they must decline to discuss It." He could not regard the intention of I the minute otherwise than tminientionl, {and that the present British Columbia Government bad made a grave and per- haps unpardonable error in this matter. They should have acted candidly and fairly, and if unable to arrive at a more satisfactory conclusion, should have fallen back upon tiie reserve supply of media- tion in Downing Street. This policy had had a damaging eft'ect upon British Col- umbia in more ways than one: it had prevented a great deal of settlement as well as the development of the coal mines.' The public utterances of states- men had also boen of a character calcu- lated to irritate the people of the pro- vince and discourage loyalty. Men of gigantic, herculean intellect, like the ilinister of Justice, who should teaith the people to practise forbearance or Christian charity, had used language (fa a public platform at Aurora unbecoming to any statesman cr public man. He said : — " If under all these circumstance the Colum- bians were to say ' You must go on ai^J flutsh donejr Bootue the the Md to Radian re to great ovinoe was w, and Imarks nilsrnllwny afcordlng to thn tormH or tuko I collector told s friend of bis that it theiiU<>rimtlvcof relciiKlnK im lioin the Con- *50nOOO un in tiovt^mhtsr nnil ttiAl foderiitlon,' I would take the altcrnattvo. »OUU,UUU up 10 XNOvemuer, anu Uiai Suoh an expression with refereuce to a Binall province, having; but a nine voiced speakint; power in Parliament was un- manly." Hon. Mr. SCOTT— He was not a mem- ber of the Cabinet then ; he was respon- eible to no one but himself for his language Hon. Mr. GAKKALIj said he quoted this as an illustration of the utterances of public men on this queBtion. llie spe<>ch continued: — " I liolleve that Ih tlic vlPW of thn ppoplo of thlH i-oiintry, and It may nn well bo plainly Ktutcd. bccauMe such a plain statement ls(tlu' very tnlnK which will prevent British Colum- bians from maklnK Bueh extravagant de- mands. If these 2,(KJ0 men understand that the people of Canada are prepared, In prefer- «nieo to compllaneo with their various de- mands, to let them go, and to have them build the Columbian section with their 10,000 people, Ihelr tone shall be more moderate, and we f hall hear no more talk about secession. The principal poi'sou who has spoken hitherto Is Hlr John Macdonald, who almost Invited It In his election speech during the late contest. They won't secede ; they know bettor. Should thoy leave tlic Confederation, the Confedera- tion would survive and they would lose their money. (Laughter.) With regard to the sec- tions of the railway which Involve the com- munication between our eastern seaboard and our great Northwest, the utmost dlllgenoc Is being used to put tlioni under contract.'' In the same speech the hon. gentle- man went on to speak contemptuously of the resources of British Columbia. Now, he professed a much more comprehensive knowledge of the country than the Minis- ter of Justice, and he could state that it was wealthy and rich in everything which formed the elements of a great nation. It was prosperous too. Its exports of gold amount^ed to $3,00ft,0(J0, and its coal ex- portations were vastly on the increase. Its revenue this year would amount to $000,000. The Province came into the unioa with a debt of $1,100,000, and at that time, under its own tariff, had a revenue of $500,000 a year, which would Say off the debt in about two years. The [inister of Justice spoke of the paucity of their numbers and' the largeness of their representation. He wished thoy had a larger representation ; but they had as good a right here as the members for Ontario and Quebec; and he defied the bon. gentleman to point to six constituen- cies, excepting the larger cities, which had more than $600,000 revenue. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Dk ST. JUST thought the hon. gentleman was mistaken aa to the revenue. The revenue for 1874 ivaa $450,000. Hon. Ml . CABEALL said he spoke of the revenue of the present year. The wag that ha confidently expected it would tonch $(')00,0<»(), There was a great deal of irrl- tation in the Province owing to the atti* tude of the Government and of publio men. The railway waa promised them, and rails were purchased in £ni;land ana sent out with a great flourish of trumpets, and it was no wonder they should feel sore at the present condition of affairs. Americans laughed derisively when they saw the piles of steel rails along the coast and the significant fact they suggested, and every one having the interests of British Columbia at heart, was greatly dissatisfied. It was unfortunate that all this should come of the settlement of the feud between two Cabinot Ministers* The confidence of the British Columbiana was nol only shaken in the (iovernmeat by their unfriendly, or no policy, but in the whole Canadian people. He desired to say that he, for one, had every oonfi-* dence in .lie Canadian people. It had been bis lot in the last two or three years to traverse vast portions of the Dominion ; he had been m ail the Provinces but two» and had ]aixed in varioa> grades of so- ciety, and he found among the ranks of the gentlemen who supported the Minis- try, as well as among the Conservitivo party, the prevailing i lea to be that the I'ailroad should be constructed He did not propose to talk secession, for* there was not in the world could drive his Province from the Union as long as he could prevent it, for it was the dream of his life to see the ( Janfederation of the Provinces consummated, aud he appealed to the Uouse to force the Ministry to do what was rijiht in the premises. lu Lord Carnarvon's compromise doouraent, he said in clause 17 : — " I havo iiow only to repeat the strong deslro which I feel to be of service In a matter, tha setlienient of which may be either simple oV dlfflcult according to the spirit In which It la approached ; a question directly bearing upoa the terms of Union may, If botJi parties to it win waive some portion of their own views and opinions, be well entrusted to the Imperial authority which presided over that union, ami not Improperly, perhaps, to the Individual minister whose fortune it Avas to consider and, In some degree to shape the details of tha original settlement under which the Provinces of Hritlsh North America were oonfedoi-ated, ond British Columbia ultlmatoly brought Inta connection with them. If indeed the expres- sion of a per.sonal feeling may. In such a case as this, be Indulged in, I may perhaps be allowed to say how sincerely I prize the recollection of th^share which 1 was then permitted to havo in that great work, how deeply I should grieve to see any disagreement or dlfleronce Impair the harmony wlileh has been so conspicuously -. maintained by the wisdom and good reeling of- all parties, and bow eutlrely your LordshlDt. ii 6 will yon r M In U-tforw mny count upon niy hPHt eftbrts In tui-llicninco oC ('veiy inoiiKure tbiU Cttuoonlriliuto to tlui KtiongtU and honour of the iKn.ilnloii of Canada." In the samo connection he desired to gay tbat although he bore »o humble a part in the conHtruciiou and completion —and he hoped to bear a conspicuous part in. the consolidation or the Dominion of Canada— it was to him one of the sweetest and dearest memories of his life, and there was nothing he possodsed he valued so much as a copy ot the silver medal strucJc in honour ot (.'onfoderation ; therefore it would ill become him because of these diiiiculties to talk of tecession, or to attempt to destroy one particle of what he considered as partly his own handiwork. In looking over the papers this morning he desired to show what a change had come over the dream of the great Liberal party, and how these changes were premonitory of coming dis- solution. I^ok at tt great Keform party of Great Britain, with (Gladstone at their head. 'J'hey came in with a 230werful fol- lowing, but in a very shoit time it was shattered to the winds by one or two false steps. He would quote from the organ of the Government, the Toronto Globe, of February 13tb, 1S74, to show that a obange had occurred:'—' " No Ooverninont that could bo found will carry op the work of conKtruotlon more effi- ciently and Kpeedlly than will that of Mr. Hackenzic. It wa.s the Ueforni Party that irst ad%-ocatcd the annexation of the North- ■west 'J'errltory, inclwUng HritiHh Columbia. It IS among Heforiners are found the most en- tUu.slastlc supporters of the raclJlc Hallway. And It 'shy a Reform ('ovornnient that the work must he carried to final completion. It is not the people of British Columbia therefore that have cause to regret the advent of He- formers to power." H« felt that this debate which he had the honour to open would give rise to many diacussions, but he hoped it would not be to any more complications. He thought, by a little more forbearance in Parliament by Dominion statesmen, a better understanding would be arrived »t, and there would be a more satisfac- tory solution of the difficulty ; but while language like that used by the Premier, who told them that they only wanted money expended in their Province- while language of that kind is used in official documents and Minutes of Coun- cil) it was not reasonable to expect that British Columbia would bear meekly n^d with resignation treatment of that kind, together with broken faith and taunts. GChey had been told they had no right to fepresentation in that House, that they represented nobody but Indians. They were leechesi Pariahs, bloodsuckers, tbo calf that was sucking the Ontario oow, etc. He did not charge the (iovernmeut with using such language, but it was used by their press and by their BU]>porter8. All these thing wero not pleasing for them to hear ; it was not the way to bring order out of the chaos into which the vicious policy of tho Government had plunged them. He admitted that the position of the Oovernmeot was an oner- ous one. They were new to office and new to ministerial responsibilities. He could quite understand that this strain on their mental powers was enormous, but he believed that a more large hearted, a more comprehenrive, whole-souled policy towards British Columbia would be move politic. The late Government did car- tainly desire to show them a g)od feeling, but the present Government was con- stantly taunting them with costing (I,- 20(),00() since their admission to the Dominion more than they returned. Was that worthy of Ministers holding office and representing the people ? He thought not, and if a better understand- ing was not arrived at, he, for one, pro* posed to raise his voice, cast his vote, and try to keep his people content, and if the Government did not do what was right they would do their best to put them out and get men in who would do them jus- tice. Then, in the language of scripture, the Province which Mackenzie rejected would become the first Province of the Dominion. (Laughter.) Hon. Mr. CORN WALL— In approaching this matter the hon. House must excuse me if I do so from a British Columbia point of view, and try to express my sense of the bad treatment which British Columbia has sustained with reference to the carrying out of the terms of union. I complain that she has been badly treat- ed, not so much by Canada itself, or its people as a whole, but rather by the ex- traordinary behaviour of the present Government since it assumed power some two or three years since. I do not wish to conceal from myself the fact that in 1871, when the termj of union on which Bi'itisb Columbia was alloweJ to enter the Dominion wero under discus- sion in the Houses of Parliament here, tbat several of the principal members of the Government now in power ezjiressed themselves as strongly opposed to such parts of the terms as relateid to the Cana^ dian PaciBo Railway, and I can well un- derstand howf on their accession to office, shortly after, they should have still look- ed with disfavour on thoie particular parts, and on the arrnngement wtiich had been oome to. But, hou. gentlemon, it appears to me that had thpy risfen to the exigenov of the moment ; had they been in any wuy capable of appreciating the importance of the matter, and of taking hold of it in a straighforward, honest, and ■tatesmanlike way, tbal then cine of the disgraceful and much to be deplored complications which have arisen between Britidh Columbia and the rest of the Dominion would now have stood in the way of tue cordial relations which we should wish to see in exibteuce between the whole of the dilFerent Frovinoes of the Dominion. I may as well'uow revert for tv few moments to the consideration of the circumstances by which Britisli Columbia was brought into Confederation with the other Provinces. I can safely say that it was through no spontaneous or innate wish of her own. The matter was at first initiated, talked of, and promul- gated by a few native born and loyal Canadians who had made British Colum- bia their home, but with very little effect, for the space of two or three years, till at last the matter of the Confederation of the North Ame"ican CMonies having be- come one of Imperial policy, a Governor was sent out from England to British Columbia, instructed to do ail in his Sower to bring about what appeared a esirable end. Uis ExcoUeucy exer- cised his power and made use of the means that 'ay within his reach, and Con- federation was speedily effected on the terms which we all know. In British Columbia, however, whi'e the necessary negotiations and preliminsries were being carried on there were not a few persons who, professing to be well acquainted with Canada and Canadian characteris- tioB, did not scruple to assert, and to warn British Columbians that Canada could not be trusted o carry out her engagements ; but, hon. gentlemen, at that time British Columbia was a Crown colony, inhabited Erincipally by Englishmen, men who, one&t and straightforward themselves, and accustooLed to honesty in grave mat tera of state in their native land, could not bring themselves to believe that Ca- nadians, of originally the same birth and instincts as themselves, the present in- habitants of a country which was begin ning to hold up her head among the nations of the world, to boast of her 4,000,000 of mbabitants, of her natural wealth and resources, and of greatly in- oreasing prosperty, oould/under any oin oumstances, fall so low in their own esU- mation, and be so utterly regardless of what was right and just, as to dream frr one moment of cancelling or breaking tiie arrsngemeiits which might be made with British Columbia. The prophetic warn* ings thus given have, however, to my re- gre', and 1 believe to the regret of the majority of this House, turned out only too true, and British Columbia has not only been for the present deprived of the only advantages she couM naturally ex- Eeot to reap from Confederation, but she as, through no fault of hor own, fallen somewhat into disrepute, and is more or less looked upon as a nuisance and an in- cumbrance. The reason for all this ia the mora deplorable, and I will add the more coniemptible, when one plainly sees that it is brought about altogether l.y the working of party motives. 1 he late Gov- ( rnment, a Government which I atn proud to say was a Governntent fit to be at the head of affairs of a country prospering as Canada was under its rule, brought b&fore Parliament a bill admirably suited to bring about the end which they sought, i, e. the building of the Paoitio Railway. It is now a matter of history Low that scheme, eminently practical as it was, and eminently suited to the character of the work sought to be carried out, was frustrated through the weight of dingraoe- ful party opposition which was brought to bear against it, and how the Government itself was brought low on matters con- nected with it. Suffice it to say that to me the course pursued by tho party now in power at that time was the most glar- ing example of the pt 'istitution of nation- al expediency for the sake of place that it was ever my lot to know. It was a dis- grace, hon. gentlemen, not only to them» selves, but a disgrace to the whole coun- try, and a disgrace whiuU it will take many years to live down. The matter would not, however, have been so disas- trous in its consequences had the present Government been equal to the ta^k of replacing the old one and cai*ryii^ on the woiks to which the country was pledged. Had they shown the slightest inclination to, or aptitude for, or even a duo concep- tion of the importance of the work that Iffy before them we should not perhaps now have so much reason to complain ; but their conduct from the first has^ been so weak, ao vacillating and inconsistent that overy one has lost all belief in their sincerity and all confidence in their oper- ations. How can people for instance, re- concile their expressions of good inten* 8 tioDH with the fact that lome of the moat })rominent mi-mbcrs of the QoTeniment are, and always haTt> been, aworn oppo- nents of the carrying out of the terms of Union with BritiBO Columbia ? ITow can they believe in the sincerity of a Oovem- ment which would not hold out a band to aave one of their own Bills, that of the Esquimau and Nanaimo Railway, which was lost last year in this House by so nar- row a majority ? And while I am on this subject I wish to refer to some remarks on this matter which fell from the bon . the Secretary of State, a few days since in this House when a discussion was going on about the >'teel rails. The hon. gen- tleman explained that the E^quimalt and Nanaimo liailway was brought down last year by the Oovernment to enable them to carry out certain arrangements into which they had entered with the Ciovern- ment of British ("olumbia, under the auspices of, and through the intervention of Lord Carnarvon ; and the hon. gentle- man proceeded to express his surprise that under there circumstances the Senate should have thought it right to defeat the paosagn of he Bill. So far, bon. gentlemen, I sgi « with the bon, 8ecre(ary of State, and T may be allowed to express my surprise that the Senate thought fit to adopt the course they did ; but I will go further and express my most unqualified surprise that any mem- ber of the Government should rise in bis place and assert that the Government did all in their power to secure the pas- sage of that.Bill. Why, hon. gentlemen, what were the facts of the case, were they not patent to all? The hon. member himself introduced the Bill in a very short, and I will add, a very lame speech, find having so done, the unfortunate Bill was le<^t to take care of itself, to live or die on its own merits, while no member of the Government or any supporter of the Government had another word to say in its favour ! And what did we see, hon. gentlemen, when th e vote was taken up- on the Bill? Why, we saw two promi- nent Bui^)orter8 of the Government, hon. gentlemen who are unswerving and un- wavering supporters of the Government UQ all occasions — hon. members who never before or after, either during this or the past session of Parliament, have voted in an adverse way on any Bill or motion in which the Government ex- pressed an interest, we saw those two bon. members rise in their places and vote against the Bill I Now, hon gentle- men, fyivf can wo reconcile that faot with the idea that the Government did whftt they oould in favour of the Bill ? If the Government had held out its little linger in support of the lUU, if they had merely whispered to them the necessity there was of supporting the Bill, can we for a moment suppose that it would have met with the tato which it did? And again, if the Government were earnest in their wish to jiass thai Bill through Parliament, why was it so readily drop- ped after its being defeated in this IIouso by so narrow a majority? Why should not the Government have brought it up this year, and camo forward and said- This Bill must pass ; it is jake the most of a bad case, of en advocate fight- ing a matter to the bitter end with bit. opponent, and this document at its end, throning to the winds all argutjaent and 9 ? did what If the 'tie finger id merely ity there a wo for uld have id? And e earoest through y droi)- lis Houso y should 5b t it up (1 said- hle us to J to which it before or if you tHay ^t opted by say that )uld have suade ua •• Then, iPi', what >t which oounaent uncil of only de- « worthy some low the grave Jiiont 10 able, and •ns being principd Qong the '6e news- 'lanatiou Jliged to t tnoant 'O come Mention hich hag of this all hen. ute, or read it iraoter- for the in it- kindly to find •of the ts, to a rather ke the » fight- ith hi|^ ts end. nt and W all obligations, layi in effect : " All that remains for the Dominion to do is to car- ry out the tomu of I'nion with liritisb Columbia in the way that wilt best suit her, and at the timu which will bt^nt suit her." That, bon. gentlemen, is the last straw in the weight which will break the camel's back. Such expressions must raise the ire of British Columbians from ono end of the Provinco to the other, and may lead to consequences which are (ii'' iicult to fot'esee, and which no ^ne would regret more than myself. I now wibh to say a few words in behalf of British Columbia. I think every one must see that British Columbia has been 'b« ' 1 treated. I know that she thinks zo ..■■ self, but what has annoyed her moie than anytbing else is tha^ Canada and her rulers during the past three year.i hav been unremittingly engaged in the Ovju- pation of throwing difficulties and dt inyit in the way of carrying out the terms of Union, whenever and by vhomsoever the matter is discussed, it has s'vvays been wi h the view of linding reasons why the work bhould not go on. ^ilways, instead of avowing an intention of doing the best under tue civcumttancos, the Oanadidn Govenmefrt, press and people, with but few exceptions, have been searching for reasons how not to do that to which tbjy are solemnly bound ; and it is that a!id that alone which has exas- I)crated the people of the Western Pro- vince. If Canada had always shown the inclination to do the best she could, to go heart and soul into the work before her, nnd to persevere to the end, there would never have been any discontent on the part of British Columbia; but, on the contrary, she would have been ready to meet the Dominion half way, and resign for the present her own good for the general .advantage of the country. la it a wonder, hon. gentlemen, that, under such circumstances as I have described, British Columbia should feel a(«**e and disgusted ? Is it a wonder that the feelings should find expreosion, and thai there are even not a few who dare whisper tts word " seoeasion ? " But, I for one, never tuink that the matter will come to auoh a pass as that last word suggests. I believe that ere long Canada will awake to the exi- gency of the moment, that the people will rise in their strength, and, at no dis tant time, will, with one supreme effort, throw from them the incubus which now weigtis down and oppresses them in the shape of the present Minlstiy, and that they will then take the matter into their hands, and ttee that the terms of Unioo with Biitish Columbia are oariied oat. Can one fail to think but that every Canadian is proud of the grand country which he calls his own, of a country stretchlnK from the Atlantic on one side to the Paoidc on the other, across the wide expanse of this msgniticent conti- nent ? And can one believe ary Canadian so mean aud contemptible as not to strain every endeavour to preserve the inviola- bility of that ia.tr domain, and of the iuhttritance which he hopes to bequeath 'is children ? I n. Mr. HEAD said he took a some- wtib different view of this question. He .bought the Government wore keeping fait' to the h' „ of their ability with Bri- tish Colunitnii, and were endeavouring to ful I every promise mraotical route tor the railway in order that the terms of the L'nion with British Columbis. might bo carried out." lie contended that the Tery first thing to be ':;i.»» was to have an exhiuslive curvey of tho country, became if they mude a false stnp in tho locution uf tho road it must cost millions of dollars; so if there was a little delay I'rom thia caqse t'lere was nr ruasou for British Columbia to believe that faith was not to b« kept with her. We did not agree with the resolution of the hon aentloman. Hon. Mr. M;.\GPHEUSUN said it would scarcely be expected considering his con- nection with this railway a few years ago, that he should not have a few words to say on the resolution now before the House. If tho hon. gentleman behind him was cotreot in his argument, the Government might have told the British Columbians that the survey was not ttm- pleted ; that until it was completed the railway could not be proceeded with. That might have been a good answer; it would have been a good plea for reason- able delay : but instead of that the Gov- ernment said nothing about the survey, but proposed to expend a large amount of money in building a railway which would be of little use, and which would not have formed a part of the Canada Pacific Bail way. Ue thought that it was quite evident that the (Jovernment was not wanting for surveys, but that they desired to wait for a very long time bnfore proceeding with the main work. When the arrangement proposed by tht) late Governmpnt of constructing the railway throqgh the agency of a company .feU. through, he -became favourable to the work being undertaken by the Govern- ment through the. Public Works Depart- ment, ot under Commissioners. The 10 ]': ohief reason why he oonsiderttd it in the best interests of the Dominion to con- tstruot it as a public worK, was the appre- hension he entertained that if a large area of a country fell into the bands of a compr..ny there would be danger of the control falling into the hands of unfriendly rivals, and the settlement of the country might be either postponed in favour of the neighbouring Republic, or might be car- ried on injuriously to this Dominion. Entertaining that view, he submitted a number of resolutions to this House about two years ago, in April, 1873, and he thought that in these resolutions was suggested a scheme which might have been adopted with advantage by the CJov- ernment. He thought that it would be admitted to day that if the Government had acted upon it when they succeeded to office ; if they bad adopted the plan •uggested here, it would have, been satis factory to the whole Dominion, and en- tirely satisfactory to British Columbia. It might have been accomplished without a large expenditure ; without anything like the expenditure that they afterwards pro posed to make on works of little or no utility. On that occasion he bad moved to resolve that with a view to the early commencement of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and in order to keep faith with British Columbia, and to carry out the iionditions agreed upon at the union of that Province with Canada, and to ensure the certain and early uniting toi^etber by railway of all the Provinces oi the Domin- ion, the Crovernmcnt should forthtvith determine the terminal points of the line on the Pacific coast, and east of the Booky Mountains, and should at once commence and proceed with the con- struction of the railwav through the Department of Public Works, or by a board of competent commissioners ap- pointed for that purpose. That simulta- neously with commencing the construo- ti.OT> of the railway, steps should be taken by the Government to obtain a thorough, accurate exploration and complete sur- vey of the whole line between the ter- minal points on the Pacific coast and the south siJe of Lake Nipissing, to ascertain the features and physical for- mation oi the country, to determine the alignment and grades of the railway, and to procure a close estimate of the oo't for the intormation of i'arliament and of the country. A largo amount had been expended, and a larger amount was of- fered to be expended in what would have been productive of little or no good result. He was one of those who voted •gainst the measure of last session for the construction of the Esquimalt and Nan- aimo Railway. His reason for doing so was, he believed, in the first place, that the expenditure would have been utterly un- productive ; that the proposed railway would not be a work of any utility ; that the offer was really to bribe British Col« umbia into consenting to an indefinitd postponement of the Pacific Railwsy. He believed also that the arrangement would not have effected a settlement of the question, because while British Colum- bians wer.) willing to accept it for a time, they would not have been satisfied for long, and would have demande i the con- struction of the Pacific Railway in fulfil- ment of the conditions of Union. His hon. friend (Mr. Carrall) was candid enough to tell them so on the fioor of this House. Tb was simply the expenditure of money that was offered to conciliate the British Columbians, without being of any national service. And that policy was continued ; for after the bill authorizing the Esqui- mau and Nanaimo Railway was lost in this House, and some other means bad to b» devised to satisfy for & time the people of British Columbia— a small sum compara- tively, but a large sum considering it was really a sop — three quarters of a million was offered to them for an indefinite post- ponement of the Pacific Railway. Now, he would have opposed the grant of $750,000 this year, if it had been brought up, as an improvident grant. He believed the people of this Dominion, from one end to the other, desired the construction of our great national railway — not in an ex- travagant manner ; not before the means of the country would permit oi its bemg constructed without inconvenience to the exchequer; not faster than the settlement of the country required; but as fast as the int»resti« of the Dominiou demanded. He believed a great ni^ority of the people desired to see the Pacific Uiiilway carried out. He would only say a lew words with respect to the negotiations carried on with British Columbia. He did not think uhev had been conducted in a spirit worthy of this Dominion. The bargainmg with British Columbia had not been car« ried on in a spirit worthy of Canada. Hv confessed he read the last Order in Coun- cil with a great deal cf regret and with some pain; for it was not conceived in that tone of national dignity and loftiness which should characterize the State papers of this country. If the (rovernment, instead of occupying a great deal of time in paltry negotiations, had com- menced the Railway and madaa moderate expenditu'-e as evidence of their good faith and heir desh« to carry out what 11 bad been ^greed to, tbey would have satisfied British Columbia. Her repre- Bentatives la Parliament here all ex- pressed that as the opinion of their Pro- vince. He saw nothing from any of her authorities that would lead him to a different conclusion. He hoped that even now the Government would change their policy ; would act in a different spirit, and do wha,t was reasonable with British Columbia, and for the advantage of the Dominion, instead of continuing to keep British Columbia dissatisfied with her connection with the rest of Canada, and probably engendering feelings of unfriend- liness and estrangement which would be difficult to remove. Hon. Mr. LETELLIEK Da ST. JUST suggested that the debate should be adjourned. Hon. Mr. MACDONALD moved the adjournment of the debate until to- morrow, which was carried. March 23, 1876. Hon. Mr. MoDONALD resumed the debate on Hon. Mr. Carrall's motion to resolve: — That the construction of the Paoifio Railway having formed the prin- cipal condition upon which British Colum- bia entered the Canadian Confederatioi), every reasonable effort should brve been made by the Government of the Dominion to satisfy the people of that Province that faith would be kept with them ; but this House re|L:iets to find, that whilst in- curring, or ready to incur immediately, ezpendilures of several millions of dollars not needed or of doubtful utility, the ilovemment has failed to proceed vigor- Musly with the construction of our great national Interoceani'^ Railway, which is so essential to the material advancement of all the Provinces of the Dominion as well tu to the early consoliduticn of political and social union &mong the whole people — He said : The position of affairs between the Dominion Government and British Columbia has arrived at a point when an expression of opinion of this House may AOt be out of place, whether as & guidance in the future to the Dominion Govern- ment or to our Province. In my opinion, the chief object iUvbringing forward this subject now is, that public opinion should be indicated, so far aa an expression of this House can be taken as such indica- tion, of a desire to have this great national highway perfected. And whether this Hoiue follows or Ifeads publio opinion, the result of this debate will be looked upon with interest in our Provinoe. The idea of establisbipg communication from ocean to ocean is not new, but to British Columbia remains the honour, if it be an^bonour,of being|the|immediate cause of pressing upon the attention of the country the necessity for this transconti- nental railway ; hence her deep interest in this subject ; and whether the verdict be for or against maintaining the connec- tion with our Province, the debate will be of equal importance. The hon. gentle- man who moved the resolution now before the House reviewed clearly the terms upon which British Columbia came into the Canadian Confederation, and I do not intend going over the same ground again, but may briefly refer to some of the points. I will endeavour to state the case from my stand-point as clearly as I can. The first breach in the terms of union was made in July, 18/3, by the failure to com- mence constru'^tion at that time, and to this the Provincial Government, as in duty bound, called the attention of the Domin- ion Government ; and from that time until now they have contiuued to protest against the non-fulfilmeut of the terms of union. Whether this breach can be justified or not, the fact cannot be controverted. Iho Premier of the Dominion, in a speech at Lambton in January, 1874, alluded to the great difficulties of building the Pacific Railway, and said that a relaxation of the terms with Columbia must be had. This speech became known in the Province at a time when a combination of circum- stances gave rise to some alarm and appre- hension : The Provincial Government at that time wanted money, aw' were nego- tiating for a loan with the Dominion ; and the fear that the true interests of the Pi-ovince might be sacrificed, and the terms of union defltruyed, caused the &vab political disturbance whijb ever took place in the Provinoe. To us the terms of union are everything — cir capital, stock in trade, and constitution — and if once broken through we have nothing on which to rely. Shortly' after this commo- tion Mr. Edgar was sent to tiie Province, as agent of the Dominion Government, to ascertain ttie feelings ond opiuioiis of the people on public questions, particularly ou the Paoiho Railway, After some time Mr. Edgar made a proposal to the Local Government to the following » fleet : — " To commence construction from Esquimalt to Nanaimo immediately, an' I to push that portion of the railway on to comple- tion with the utmost vigor aud in the siiort- est practicable time. Hon. gentlemen will observe that this was not offered as compensation, or as a branch line, but aa a portion of the railway ; and as a portioa must be a part of the whole, this must 12 ^i have been considered as a part of the main line. "The Government would immediately open up a road and build a telegraph line along the whole length of the railway in tile Provineo, and carry, telegraph wire across the continent. To a country like British Colunibia it is conceded, however, to Le an important j^oint, that not only the proinpt and vigorous commencement, but rIho the continuous proBecution of the worK o' construction within the limits of the Pi evince should be guaranteed. In order, therefore, to secure an absolute certainly in this direction, the Dominion Governniient Hie disposed to concede to British Columbia, that the moment the surveys and road on the main land can be completed, there shall be in each and every year, and even under the most unfaeourable circums(ances, during the construction of the railway, a minimum expenditure upon works of construction within the Province of at leaB- pondence accepted the settlement of the iSecretury of State by Minute of Council dated 1 8th December, 1874, and as an evidence of such acceptance, brought a bill into Parliament last session to give efifi'ct to a })art of the settlement ; the fate of that bill we all know— and we know that British Columbia was at that time sacrificed to party spirit. Every hon. gentleman in this r'hambei' no doubt thinks (and would feel indignant at being told otherwise) that the legislation of this country is founded on principles of jus- tice which acknowledge the righ^ to pro- tect the interests of the minority as well as of the majority, but in thii instance I am sorry to any that an act of injustice was done. The failure of that bill, how- ever, did not cancel the claims of the Province. If there is any virtue in pro- mises and obligation) solemnly entered into, wtiether under Act of Parliament or Minute of Council, they should be ad- hered to, and not set to one side to the injury of any Province. The Premier, in a speech at Sarnia in October, 1875, announces that serious " modifications of the terms with British Columbia will be necessary, and that fresh proposals were to be made, and that British Colum- bia deserved every consideration." With the Earl of Carnarvon's bargain unfulfilled, ttiis announcement gave rise to much un- easiness in the Province as forshadowing future delay and fresh negotiation the Gaiiarvon recommandations had only be<>n agreed to a short time before, and now they are virtually set aside before any part of them is fulfilled. These fresh pro- pnsi'S wore embodied in a Minute of Coaticil dated 20th September 1875, and reached British Columbia the following November. The Local Government impru- dently attributed motives for this delay, which I do not endorse ; I am willing to believe that the delay was occasioned through the neglect of the official ivbose duty it was to attend to thh matter. The Minute recites the Edgar proposals and the agreement with Earl Carnarvon, and ofl'ers a compensation of $750,000 under buch ambiguity, that if otherwise willing to acce[)t the offer, the L3cal Govern- m<>nt could not do so, as it could easily ^le construed into compenf;ation for inde- finite delay upon the whole line, although we are assured by the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government that the oiler ha i reference only to the Esqoi- inalt and Nanaimo Railway. Had this Minute containe(i an assurance that the other portions of the Carnarvon recom- mendations would be carried out, the dissatisfaction would not have been so great, but there was no suoh assurance. This offer of compensation was declined JP \ 18 it and as an ', brought a ision to give dement; the ind we know It that time Every hen. no doubt ant at leing fation of this MpleS of JU8- [righ^ to pro- irity aa well instance I of injustice ■t bill, hoff- |ainjs of the tue in prp- Jnly entered nrliament or 3uld be ad- side to the Premier, in tober, 1875, lifications of nbia will be aposaU were ish Colum- ion." With 1 unfulfilled, to much un- brahadowing 'tiation the I had only before, and le before any Be fresh pro- Minute of er 1875, and le following nent impru- this delay, aa willing to occasioaed [iuial ivhose latter. The oposals and mrvon, and .000 under vise willing nl Goyern- iould easily )n for inde- 3i although ntlemaa at t that the the Esqui- Had thio :e that the 9n recom- out, the ) been so assuraotie. s deolined by the Provincial Government. And we do think that the Dominion <^rovernmeat having carried the point of an extension of the time limit, and after having entered into obligations with the full knowledge of their being less onerous than the original terms, we had every reason to believe that they would be adhered t({. and cannot understand any attempi, being mads to ignore those obligations. The Provincial Gov- ernment appealed to Her Miyesty a second time— moat unwisely as I think — being, as I am, deeply impressed with the wisdom and advisibility of settling our domestic quarrels at home. And I am glad to be able to say that all the Co- lumbia representatives now at Ottawa disapprove of the action of the Local Qovernment in this instance. The tone of the Columbia Minute of Council re- fusing the olfer of $750,000 U much to be deplored, although it must be br>rne in mind that it was written under a deep sense of injustice. Even then it in hardly juatiQable, and the tone of the Minute of the Dominion Government on the 15th of this month is equally to be deplored ■ It attempts to reduce this great question to a naerely local one. The hon. Minister of Agriculture alluded to the tone of the SresB in British Columbia. 1 as well as imself condemn the spirit and tone of a portion of that press, but lately they have been writing under the belief that the Province has been deeply wronged, and ou that score there is Bora3 excuse. I take it that the hon. gentleman would not like at all times to be held account- able for all that appears in the press of Canada. From speeches made by promi nent men, and from newspaper articles in this part of the country, an impression has been gaining grouad that there is a feeling ii. certain circles that British Columbia should be cast adrift. If this feeling has any foundation the sooner we know it the better, and we can part good friends, and this debate will be of some service in ooilk^rming or dispelling these impressions. Allegiance a:.,! loy alty ore based entirely on mutual advantages. The Federal Government and the diiierent branches must each do their part to en. sure the harmonious working of the whole. The hon. Minister of Agriculture also alluded to a -esolution passed by the House of CottimonB iu'isri^. when the delegate from British Cc' ;rabia was pres- ent on the floor of th«) douse. There is nothing to show that he approved or dis- approved of that resolution. What power could^he^bavo by being on the floor of the House when he could not open his mouth, and the resolution after ail was only a sugar coatiog to the pill, so that it might go down easily. We say this : that we have just ground of complaint ; that these grounds of complaint have been acknowledged from the fact of com- pensation haviug been offered us j that there is no desire to burden or overtax the country ; that we have agreed to extend the time limit from ten to nine- teen years ; that we have agreed to take a yearly expenditure much less than we were entitled to ; that in 1874 the tax- ation of the country was incaeased by three million dollars in order (as stated in the preamble to the I'acific Kailway Act of 1874) to mike provision for the construction of the Pacific Baiiway as rapidly as possible ; that three millions will pay interest and sinking fund on fifty miLlions,whicb is more than ne jessary witn land grants to build the whole luie ; that in 1874 and 1875 £8,000,000 have been borrowed partly ou the Imperial guarantee for the purpose of constructing the facifio Baiiway, also for enlarging the canals. The Act authorizing the loan recites the bargain with firitisu Columbia as being the chief reason for borrowing tbii money; railway construction is made the prominent feature in the pre- emble, the enlai-gement of the canals beiog secondary. That the money raised under the Imperial guarantee cannot legally be applied to any purposes other than the Pacific Eiiilwayj that tive years have nearly elapsed smce British Co- lumbia entered Confederation, and it is only reasonable to expect that the work of construction be commenced forthwith. We have no reports from the Chief Engineer for the laib two years, but we find ia the report brought down in the session of 1874, which could only em- brace information up to the end of 1873, the Chief Engineer makes the following statement: — "It may indeed be now accepted as a certainty that a route has been found generally possessing favourable engineering features, with the exception of a short section approaching the Pacific ooast ; which route, taking its entire length, including the exceptional section alluded to, will, on tho average, show lighter work, and will r<)quire less costly structures that have been neces- sary on many of the railways now in operation in the D&joinion." Now, if this much was known two years ago, th& informfttion must sturely be complete H n ! • enough by this time to enable the Gov- ernment to determine the route withovit delay. That large sums of money are lying idle in diit'eront banks, and a large (juantity of rails on hand, and that a gresit deal of wcrk could be carried on for two •r throe years \^'ithaut much additional outly. That the Minute of Council of the 20th .September last has destroyed confidence and caused much dissatisfac- tion in the Province as ignoring the set- tlement of Earl Carnarvon — T think I may use that term — there being no assu ranee of its fulfilment ; that the Minute ■ of the 1 5th March last tends in the seme direction. I ^vill briefly allude to some portions of it. I find the following:— •' There is no pretence for saying that the Eequimalf' and Nanaimo Railway was, under the ttrnis of Union, a work, the construction of which was obligatory on Canada, as part of the Pacific Railway." I say that we had very atrong grounds for considering this to be a part of tht) main line. By a Minute of Council of June, 1873, Esquimalt is declared to be the western termiauB of the Pacific Railway. That Mr. Edgar proposed to build this portion of the railway without reference to its being a branch, or as compensation — and that grants of land were renerved for the purposes of this road in ac- cordance with the " terms of union." 'i"he Minute further states : -"The Com- mittee would observe that they cannot asEent to the view that the Union with British Columbia has occasioned loss and deprivation to that Provmce. On the contrary, the results, financially, to the Dominion and to British Columbia re- spectively, even ignoring all railway ex- penditure in the Province, ^how that enormous pecuniary advantage's have been derived by Columbia from Canada." We do not pretend to eay that we have suffered any loss from being joined to Canada, but we do say that continual delays and uncertainties have had a most damaging effect on the Province. We are certain of nothing, and never know what may next be otiered to us. The Minute further states : " The Committee must further observe that the tenor of the representations now under consideration would seem to indicate that the object of the Tjegislature of British ('olumbia is less to secure the completion of the work as a national undertaking in such a way and on such terms as may best conduce to the welfare of the whole community, than to enforce the immediate and con- tinued expenditure, within theUr own Province, at whatever cost to Canada, of many millions of money, for which they cannot pretend to have given an equiva- lent ; and that their chief grievance is that their people have not as yet derived, in addition to the other financial benefits of Union, the gains and profits to be ex- pected from the expenditure of these millior.s in their midst. To these views must be mainly referred the allegations, unfounded as they appear to the Cca- M.i^tee, of disastrous and ruinous delays, and as to all classes of the population having suffered loss and dei)rivationfl." This great work is of as much importance to the whole country as to us, and ' the Sortion of this railway east of the Rocky lountains is guai cteed to us as fully as that with; ^ our own Province, ejid is of equal impoitance to us. British Columbia has the right to protest against delays over the whole line just as much as in the Province— although our immediate atten- tion has been directed to that within the Province, believing that the interests of the easteru sections would be looked after by the people in this part of Canada. These t^vc Unes, " It remains only to en- deavour to construct the. Pacific Railway as the resources of the country will per- mit," wind up this Minute, and dts2iose in a summary way of the terms of union and the Carnfirvon recommendation, and per haps it is as well that no fresh promises should bo made, and whatever we now get will be unexpected. I don't think it fair to place the statement of the amount ap- pended to the Minute before the country at this time — the expenditure in a new Province being usually larger the first- years than afterwards. Everythi I notice, has been brought against uts tuat possibly could— a share of the public debt of the country, and a share of the cost of civil government, and a share of every- thing else. The outlay on account of the Pacific Railway cunnot fairly be charged to our Province. It is a national under- taking, and a large part of this money paid in salaries is carried back to this part of Canada, from which the Province gets no benefit. We never pretend to bruig financial advantages to the Domin- ion, but if treated well I feel assured that we will return as much, if not more, than any of the Provinces, in proportion to population. What we want now is an evidence, a substantial evidence, of bona fide intentions and not promises. We want to feel as soon as possible that we are part of Canada ; instead of importing foreign goods, we desire to be able to get the benefits of your manufaotures and markets here ; we desire to feel 15 wliich they 1 an equiva- ;rierance is fet derived, lal beneRts ts to be ex- e of these these views allegations, J the Cora- I oils delays, population jrivations." importance IS, and ' the the Rociiy as fully as B| »Jid is of h Columbia inst delays 3h as in the liatc atten- witbin the nterests of wked after of Canada, only to en- fic Kail way y will per- disjiose In uuioQ and 1, and ^er n promises we now get hink it fair niount ap- be country in a new ' the first- rythi I st un tuttt ublic debt he cost of of every- lint of the 8 charged al under. 18 money k to this Province retond to B Domin- ured that >ore, than ortion to 3W is an , of bona 3es. We that we mporting able to ifactures to feel that we are a part of a great and progres- sive country, imbued above all with a deej) sense of integrity in fulSlment of obligations. Hon. Mr. ALLAN said whether the resolution now before the House passed precisely in its present shape or not, he was quite sure the great majority of the members, without distinction of parties, would give their firm adhesion to the main proposition which it contained ; that pro- position was, that the construction of the Pacific Kailway was an absolute necessity if these British North American Provinces were to become a strong, united, and powerful confederation. If this great work was not proceeded with, then he was sure that the bright future which they all anticipated, and not unreason- ably anticipated, for the Dominion would be shorn of half its promise ; for without this Pacific Kailway they could not hope to build up Manitoba or the North-west Territories, and without it our union with British Columbia would be little more than a union in name; if, indeed, our connection with this— one of the fairest Provinces in tbe Dominion — would not be imperilled altogether. He maintained that all Canadians, irrespective of party, were deeply interested in this question of a transcontinental railway. In the first place, our honor was bound up in it f the :i they came into office, and hid to declare then: intentions with respect to the Pacific Railway ; and he ventured to affirm that that policy was looked upon by the great majority of the people as only an excuse for an indefinite po3ti>onement of the through rail route. This feeling of dis- trust as to thd intentions of the Qovei'd- ment in reference to the construction of the main road had been much increased by what had fallen from the members of too Administration themselves on several occasions recently, in answer to enquiries made from this side of 4be House; and » 16 1 very grave suspicion had been raised in his miud, as well aa in the minds of othei h, as to whether the Govern tiient are really expending the money they are now ex- pending on that whioh is ultimately to constitute the main line of the trani- continentftl railway, or whether they are putting it on roads or portions of roads whioh will be perfectly useless so far as the constructioL of the main line is oon- oeraed. Perha2)9 before the closo of the session, in answer to the various enquiries whioh have been made from time to time, Buoh information may be laid on the table of the House a^ would enable bon. gentlemen to form an opinion on the subject ; for the statements which bad hitherto been made by the B:«imber8 of the Government ba<'. been of so unsatis- factory a character, so uncertain, so want- ing in clearness and precision, that it was almost impossible to gather from them what lines of road were being surveyed or constructed, or any definite or valuable information whatever about them. Pass ing onward to that part of the resolution that declared that the construction of our great National Interoceanic Railway is essential to the material advancemaut of all the Provinces of the Dominion, as well as to the early consolidation of political and social union among the whole people, he was sure this spoke the sentiments of n largo majority of the people of Canada. It was quite true that under the ressure of various matters more imme- lately afliecting our interests, in this part of the Pominion, the press and peopl'i had not lately spoken out so strongly o? so earnestly on the subject of this Pacific road, but he ventured to assert that the heart of the people of this country was quite sound on that matter, and while they bad no desire that the Goverameat should use undue haste or push on the work without proper preliminary surveys, or faster than the resources of the coun- try would fairly permit, thej^ would not suffer anything that looked like an at' tempt to kill it off, either by diverting the money to unnecessary works or by con • tinued delays or masterly inaction. He rejoiced, therefore, that the whole sub- ject bad been brought before the House by the esolution of the hon . gentleman from British Columbia, as it would give to the members of the Senate an opportuni- ty of calling the attention of the country to the dangers which threatened a great national work, if the present polioy of the Government be persisted in— a policy, too, whioh the Government seemed to take delight in enunciatiag— -judging from S the Minutes of Council which have been alluded to — in such a way as would be most galling and offensive not to gtrangers and aliens, but to those who were our own fellow subjects, bound to ua by the .strongest ties of race, creed and u com- mon allegiance' He had no desire to approach this question in a party spirit or from any partisan motives, and he hoped he had not done so on the present occasion. His earnest wish, as a Cana- dian, was to i^ee a work, which, in the languuge of the resolution, was absolutely necessary for the consolidation of the political and social union among the whole people, proceeded with cautiously, considerately, but with one steady, per- sistent i^Am throughou , that of connect- ing the Pacific i^lope with Centra,! Ca- nada and the Maritime Provinces on the dhures of tue Atlauiic by a great itateroceanic highway, thus completing and consolidating this Dominion as a power on this North American Continent. Hon. Mr. SCOTT suggested that the debate should be adjourned, as a large bundle of important papers on this siu>- ject were in the printer's hands and would be before the House early next week. Hon. Mr. DICKEY moved the adjourn- ment of the debate. Hon. Mr. CARRALL said be did not see |that there would be much more in- formation la the papers than they already had ; and there was enough in the Minute of Council to found a dozen resolutions on. The debate was adjourned until Thurs- day, Mr. Dickey having the floor. Thursday, March 30, The debate on Hon. Mr. Carrall'a mo- tion, respecting the Pacific Railway, wjs resumed by Hon. Mr. DICKEY, who said he re- gretted that hid own feeling at the pres- ent, and the manner in whicli his time had been so fully occupied, alike contrib- uted to prevent him doing justice to the great and important question involved in the resolution. At the same time he would endeavour as briefly as possible to advert to a few prominent points con- nected with it without attempting to make an exhaustive exposition of the subject. An amendment had been sug- gested to the resolution, and it became necessary, therefore, that the House should intelligently examine the question and decide what course should be adopted under the circumstances. It they Vi^ent back for a moment to the commencement of this legislation for the Canadian )h have been Aould be most stiangere and ere our own US by the and a com- no desire to party spirit ves, ana he I the present as a Cana- ivbioh, in the as absolutely ttion of the among the b cautiously, steady, per- of connect- Centra,! Ca- rovinoes on by a great comi^leting linion as a n Continent, ed that the li as a large on this sub- is and would ct week, the adjourn- he did not iich more in- they already 1 the Minute lolutions on. until Thurs- 3or. March 30. Jarrall's mo- aiiway, vns ' said he re- t the pres- ich his time ike contrib- 3tice to the involFed in le time he possible to points con- empting to >ion of the 1 been sug- 1 it became ;he House be question beadop^ 1 tbey v^ent nencement » Canadian 17 Pacific Eailway it would be found that an Act was passed in 1872 to provide for its construction. The policy of the late Qovernment, which we need not reiterate, was that the road should be built by a company, with aids of money and land, and when he came to advert to the next legislative step it would be seen that the policv then announced had been recog- nized by the present Administration, al- though in a most singular and inconsist^ •nt manner they had immed ately de- parted from it. The original Bill for the construction of the Pacific Ilailway would never have passed in this House, and it certainly would not have received his vote, as be stated distinctly at the time, but for a resolufion which was placed upon the journals of the House or Com- mons, and recited as part of the preamble of the Canadian Pacific Act iu 1874, for he was one of those not prepared to plunge the country into an unknown and untold expenditure for the purjpose of iusoomplishing the object of that Biil. He remained of the same opinion still, but be and the legislature of the country were prepared to have the railway constructed by private enterprise with the aids that that Act accorded, and he shared most sincerely in the regret expressed that the legislation for the time was a failure, owing to circumstances which have be- come part of our history. The next step they found was this t The present Govern- ment brought forward an Act, to one of the controlling provisions of the preamble of which he would call attention to show how thoroughly the prmciplc he had adverted to was incorporated into the legislation, und hpw utterly inconsistent it wa-s to some of the clauses of this Bill. The portion to which he referred was as iollows:— " And whereas the House of Commons of Canada resolved In the session of the year 1871 that the said railway should be con- structed and worked by private onterprlse, and not by the Dominion Qovernment, and that the public aid to bo given to secure Its accompltshmont should consist of such liberal grants of land and such subsidy In money or other aid, not Increasing the then existing rate of taxation, as the Parliament of Canada should thereafter determine." That was the principle upon which this Bill was based, and yet the enacting clause was that the principle should be violated and that the railway should be constructed by the Government. Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Ob, no. Hon. Mr. DICKEY— But I say, oh yes! tor it enacts that the Government shall construct and work the railway. The 2 Act, it was quite true, continued the speaker, enables the Government, if they chose, to give aid to private companies, to lot the road to contractors to be con- structed, and worked by liubscription, but would anyone tell him that that clause could be canied out ? It was not pretended for a moment that any company had been found to take part of the railway, and yet they were to sup- pose that twenty companies could be found to take sub-divisions and not only con- struct them but work them for all time to come. It was impossible that private companies could be found willing to do that, and it was not at all surprising that two years after the passage of this Bill they had not heard of a single company offering to construct a portion of the railway. (Hear, bear.) They were to get $10,000 a mile, a grant of 20,000 acres of land and a guarantee of four per cent, of an undefined amount for 25 years ; and yet notwithstanding all these aids no company had been found to construct and work isolated sections. But the Act decllaced tbe matter in the hands of the Secretary for tbe Colonies, in order to get his deci- sion to bring them out of the difiQculty. The Government foolishly, as he thought, acceded to the proposition th^ the question should be referred to Lord Car- narroo, and after His Ijordsbip had given his decision upon it. A Minute of Council was passed on tbe I8th December, 1874, which was to this efiPect :— That tha pro- posals could be accepted, "without involv- ing a violation of the spirit of any Parlia- mentary resolution or the Ivitter of any enactment ;" and that "the conclusion at which His Lordship has arrived upholds, as he remarks, in the main and subject only to some modification of detail, the poUcy adopted Ly this Government on this most embarrassing question. " They therefore "respectfully request that Your Excellency will be pleased to assure His Lordship that every effort will be mad3 to secure tbe realization of what is expected." But it did not sto}) there. An attempt was made to throw u gloss over this matter, and shift the res- ponsibility of any failure in carrying out those terms upon this Houie, but he would speak of that pre- sently. He proposed to shew now, in fact, that the Government themselves stated that the carrying out of the deci- sion of Lord Carnavon did not require any additional legislation at all ; and, second, that they approved of the course the Senate took on the Esquimalt and Nauaimo Bailway, which was one of the connections. He would take these points in order. What was that decision ? It involved an immense outlay of money by this country. It involved not only the building of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway, but also the construction of a waggon road, a telegraph the whole length of the line, and the expenditure of $2,000,000 a year besides. Yet, all this they were prepared to do, as he would show by reference to the papers brought down, without any legislative au- thority. Within a month before the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway Bill was rejected here, tbe Premier stated, on the ')th March, 1875, after reading the settle- ment to the House : " The torniH ro<-oiuin('iMl(«l by Ixjrd Carnar- von, and which we Imve ucpfipted, are simply tliOHe: That, InNtcuul of one and a huff liillllonK, we propose tot-xpeml two nilUlonH a year within the I'l-DVlnce of Rrltlsh Colum- bia, and we propose to tlnlsh the railway con- nection through the I'rovlnce and downward to the point Indicated by the year 1890, being an extension of time of nine yorrs. With respwa to the question raised by my honour- able friend from (South Bruce, I inUht say tliat I have nothing to auk from Parliament. Wo have no authority to obtain, but merely to communicate to Parliament this decision, and rely upon the House supporting us In accepting the terms." Now matters had somewhat changed ; there was a change of base very shortly after\vards, and there began to be an omi- nous change in tbe political atmosphere. The hon member for South Bruce had taken a very decided stand in objecting to tbe policy and the Government and the Prime Minister went so far as to assure tbe hon. gentleman that there was no necessity for alarm, as all they prdiJosed to carry out of these term* was that part which required no legisla- tion. They thought to quiet the hon* gentleman) but it had ,not this effect, for when the Bill came before the House it met with bis opposition. Tbe Bill passed, and oaqje in its regular course to the Senate. The hon. gentleman from Van- bouver Island ( Elon. Mr. Macdonald) had stated the othei' day in his place that the Bill wob sacrificed to party spirit in this House. It was a most iU'-advised and unworthy statement, in the face of tbe fact, that several of the gentlemen who opposed it were ordinarily supporters of the Government ; that the hon. member for South Bruce, who took an active part in opposing that Bill, was a few short months afterwards called to one of the highest positions in the Cabinet, and ilihat the reasons aiUluced by these gentle- men for opposing tha Bill were the very reasons which the Government now gave for not carrying out Lord Carnarvon's design. (Hear, hear.) He would prove it from the papers themselves. Hon. gentlemen would recollect that the great argument in the House againsu the measure m^ uction of a the whole xpenditure des. Yet, o do, as he the papers Sislative au- before the ray Bill was ted, on the the settle - ord Carnar- ar(! simply iiiU a half wo IllUlloUH lllsh Colum- iilhvay coii- U downward 1800, beluK ;-r.s. With my lionour- inlKlit say Parliament. , biu merely Ills decision, )rtlng lift In changed ; rery shortly > be an omi- ktmosphere. Bruce had n objecting overnment, ent so fai' leman that larm, as all these terms no it the ~hon. is effect, for le House it Bill passed, irse to the from Van- lonald) had ce that the pirit in this idvised and face of the /lem(m who pporters of >n. member active part . few short one of the }inet, and lese gentle- ire the very t now gave ::)arnarvon's ould prove ves. Hon. it the great he measure 19 was that the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway was not n part of the <'anada Pacific ; it was a mere local work and was givon as a sort of soi) to British Columbia. That was the idea, and it was the conten- tion of the Opposition that the expendi- ture of money on that road was frittering away the means which Parliament had provided for the construction of the Pacific Railway. (Hear, hear.) They had rejected the Bill, and in taking that oourae and saving a wasteful outlay of iour millions, they had had the sanction of the country. He proposed to prove now that they were right according to the position tnken by the Government themselves. Here was their own lan- guage. One might suppose they had bor- rowed it from the speeches of bon. gen- tlemen from that side of the House, in opposing the Bill, and which ougbc to put to shame the cuckoo cry of party spirit in connection with this question, (llear, hear.) Here was the Minute of Couucii of the 2(Jth September, and what what did it say : — " The proposed llallway from Esquimalt to Nanalnio does not form a part of tlio Cana- dian Prclfic ISailway as defined by the Act : It was Intended to benefit Itxral lntcroi>t8, and was projiosed as compensation for the disap- pointment experienced by the nnavoldablo delay In constructing the Railway across the t-'ontlnent. The work Is essentially a Ux^al tvte, and there are obvious reasons against the ('anadtan (tovernnicnt, under ordinary circumstances, undertaking tlie construction of such works, and In favour of their being built, if at all, by virtue of Provincial action. (Hear, hear.) The argument was put m even stronger language than that used by the Opposi- tion, because the QoTemment p; jb^bly had access to facts which tne Opposition had not $ but the same line of argument was proposed. Strange to say, this State paper was issued within some five months only after the Senate had rejected the Bill and called down on their devoted heads the condemnation of many BU}>porters of the Government and a portion of th(< press. He gave this, too, as an illustration of the manner in which the Government had backed and filled in their ])olicy with respect to British Columbia and the Pacific Hallway. Look again at what they had done in con- structing a branch ostensibly to connect the American railway gyattm ivith Fort Garry, where it was assumed the Canada Pacific Railway would cross Bed River. Now we were told the point of crossing was moved down some twenty-three miles. They were expending money in 'Constructing the line from Pembina to Fort Garry : a lino beginning nowhere and. ending nowhere ; as at Pembina it con- nected with no part of the American rail- way, and at Fori Garry it connected with no part of the Canada Pacific Railway. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Secretary of State, in making out his statement to show where the steel rails were to be used, had to calculate on the road being extended twenty-three miles down the river in order to dieooso of some of them. Then it had been sui^gestt-d here that the Georgian Bay Branch was part of the Pacific Railway, but tht.^ was an after- thought. 1'be notion was a perfectly futile one, because in the very Act itself the Georgian Bay Branch was spoken of as a branch of the Pacific Railway. There were only two branches mentioned in the Act, one the Pembina Branch and the other the Georgian Bay Branch, but now th(«y hod this extension from Thtm- der Bay to Shebandowan as a third branch, not authorized by the Act. He had called the attention of the Hon. Sec- retary of State, the other day, to the fact that the Canada Pacific Act of 1874 only provided for the construction of two sec- tions from Lake Nipissing to Red River, one on the eastern section from Lake Nlpissing to some point west of Lake Superior ; and from that the next section was to Red River. There was no brjmoh mentioned there, so if this section from Thunder Bay was not to form part of the main line, it was built without the author- ity of the law. Some hon. gentlemen could not see the pertinency of the ques- tions he had put at the time, but the line from Nepigoa north of Lake Superior was intended to go west, strike Hat Por- tage, and go to Red River, being nowhere nearer than fifty miles to -Thunder Bay. The truth was, that portion of the line had not yet been located, and the hon. gentleman had no right to lead the House to believe that the line would go round Lake Superior from Lake Nipissing, in some unknown way, to Prince Arthur's Landing. As far as his information wont, there was no ]>roof whatever that such a line was practicable at all, and there was nothing m the official fiport to show that there was any practical route between Prince Arthur's Landing and Xipegon. It was idle to suggest that this Branch at Prince Arthur's Landing was to be a part of the main line ; it was simply a link in the water stretches system soon to be abandoned, and .t was wasting in its con- straotion the means that ought to have gone towards the building of the great tran- 20 i continental railway. In the last rei)ort of the Chief Engineer they were examining eaat from Bat Fortafie to Nipegon, in order to get a line, and it had not been located. Ho reports : — " Examinations have been made durini; the pant season in various sections of the lake region be- tween Lake of the Woods and Nipegon, and considerable information obtained. ^\il the portages oo the Dawson route have been instrumentaliy surveyed with a view to ascertaining the best means of overcoming them." There was the situa tion in which this section was at the latest report :; they were examining from Rat Portage east, and from Nipegon west, and were not yet satisfied that there was a practicable line. The direct route would naturally lead them from Nipegon to Rat Portage and Lake of the Woods. From Mipegon east it was not known yet whether an available line could bo found. The Engineer says : — *' Exploratory sur- veys have been mado from Nipegon Bay easterly to Pic River to asositain if it be practicable to construct ilM railway along the coast of Lake Superior ; and explorations have been made from the mouth of Pic Mver in as direct a oourse as possible towwds the eastern teiminus." Not to go to Oeorgian Bay, but to go in as direct 6 oourse as possible to thu eastern ter- minus, the south east coast of Lake Nip- pissing. If the Government had been as desirous as they expressed themselves to bo of utilizing the water stretches, would it not have been natural for them to im- prove the navigation of French River by a short canal which would not cost one- fifth as much as a railway, and secure water communication all the way to the foot of Lake Nipissing, the point of con- nection with that of the extension of the Canada Central or the navigation of the Ottawa ? It was quite evident that the intention of Parliament was that this line should run as this report said it should run, in the most direct manner, north of Lake Nipiesing to Lake Nepigon, and not south to Georgian Bay, as had been dis- ingeniously asserted the other day. (Hear hear.) It was most unfortunate that in endeavouring to keep faith with the people of British Coliimbia, as all hoped and desired the Government to do, they had not taken some steps to show that at all events thfy were in earnest in their endeavours to carry out thi^ inter- oceanic railway. Instead of starting from some available point to open up the great Ncnthwest for settlement, and by means of immigration to build east and west from this point, thus adding to the population and revenue of the Dominion,, they had di8sii)ated the moans of the country for the last two years in en< deavouring to build the Georgian Bay Branch and other branohos, and in buy- ing 5U 000 tons of steel rails which wero not likely to be wanted for many years to come. Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Hear I Hear 1 Hon. Mr. DICKEY said his hon. friend might say "heart heart" but ho would require a little more than that to explain to this House the fact that instead of expending that money in endeavouring to construct a portion of the main line they purchased rails that they did not require, and sent 6,000 tons of them round to British Columbia after it was known that the Esquimault and Nanaimo road was not to be built, where they could not be used until they would be rendered useless by exposure to the weather. The line sketched on the map started from the head of Bute Inlet, but anybody who read the reports or studied the geography of the country would know that it would take years to get through that difficult region and put the line in a condition to require these rails ; in the meantime they were to be put into piles, exposed to the action of the atmosphere, which would leave ^em in a few yearu not worth half their cost. It was well known that the effect of piling masses of iron together was the same as piling wood, to increase decomposition. The consequence would be that in a few years these raits would ' become correspondingly useless, just as sleepers would be if piled together, instead of being laid on the track and kept free from rust by friction of the trains Upon these grounds he con- demned the course of the Government in this matter ; that they had actually dis- sipated tho means which should have been used for the purpose of carrying out in good iaith the agreement with British Columbia. But their measures had no tendency to that end, therefore it was the Government should be prepared with an explanation. He had to confess that he shrank from accepting the resolution before the House. As He had already stated, he stood upon the principle that this House was bound by th<>ir legislation alone. It was not necessary to go back to addresses and correspondence ; it was quite sufficiei:.: for them that with the assent of the representatives of British Columbia they had made an arrangement,. 21 and wcit : to the >bminioD. of the in en- ;ian Bay and that arrangement waa embodied in a reiolution ani Act of Parliament, and to that arrangement Canada ought religiouily to adhere. He took that as the starting point apart altogether from that pmlimi- narv nei^otiation. His hon. friend (Mr. Carrall) did not propone anything prao tical by passing this resolution, but at the end an amendment was intended, he presumed, to some extent to justify the action of the action of the QoTernment in doing nothing. But see how absurd this amendment would be. His hon. friend's resolution was to the following effect, (see r«>solution) and the amendment was to strike out all the words after "effort," and to add something, but the previous part of the resolution was to be kept in so that it would read,aB amended, as follows: Kesolved, That the construction of the Pacific Railway having formed the prinoi- Eal condition upon which British Oolum- ia entered the Canadian Confederation, every reasonable effort, without increas- ing the taxation of this country, should be made by the Government of the Do minion to satisfy the people of that Prov- ince that faith will be kept with them. His hon. friend's resolution went back to the original terms of confederation and said these terms must be fulfilled, •nd yet with absurd inconsistency it said that this railway should not be built with any increase in the rate of taxation. There was nothing about increase of tax- . ation in these terms, which bis resolution re-aiBrms. lie supported the Govern- ment in thin, that they were not bound to carry out that great work irrespective of the terms placed in the statute book, and yet the Government were asked to support this amendment. They could defend themselves if they bad acted rig orously and carried out the policy nhioh they had put on the statute book } but they had not done so, and here his hon. friend (Mr. Haythorne) came in with a white-washing resolution for the Gov- ernmentiWhichsaid, "by the original terms •of union you must be bound," and asked the House to endorse the original resolu- 'tion and bay, ''by the terms of the entry of British Columbia into the union we must carry out this work" — that this railway must be built taxation or no tax- ation. But these were not the terms which were upon the Act of Parliament, and the terms of the Act should be adhered to. In future he hoped it would not be the cose, as had been in the post two years, that the means of the v.oouatry would b« dissipated upon branoh roads, steel rails, &o., which ooet millions of dollars, but at the same time did nofc add one mile to the construction of this great public work. lie hoped the House wdiad nay to British Columbia, on one hand, " We are prepared honestly and truly to carry out the terms on which you \vere admitted by Parliament into Coial pleader, but by sound principles of poliojr and statesmanship He had reirarded this question with the utmost sympathy towards British Columbia; being con* neoted himself with a lately annexed Province, he telt that the injury, if here was any, which British Columbia com* plained of might have been the case of Prince Edward Island. It might be that the Government would meet their en- gagements with that Province with similar inattention and neglect, and then the pedple of Prince £ Iwai-d Island might have a just cause of complaint. He would simply do this when he iieard hon. gentlemen from British Columbia com* plaining that the term^ under wbich they came into the Confederation had not been faithfully kept: endeavour to put himself in tlieir place, and ask himself how he would act if he were placed in the same position. He admired tbeir courage and constancy in occupying tiMt remote part of the British Empire and establiob- ifig their homes there. He admired the fine climate of tueir Provinoe,the fertility of their soil, their splendid timber, their mineral wealth and otber resouroM^ and especially their firmness li! 22 coosiiUnoy la demanding tLe Tul- iilment of their terms of Confederation. He considered the Paoifio Ilailwuy neither A firitirh Cohimbian nor • Cui»diiui road, but an Im]>erial work, and it should have been so considered ever since its in- ception. He would, with the leave of the liouse, quote a dsspatch from l']arl Granville to 8ir li. Musgiave, t'ormeily Governor of British ('olumbia, which proved the action of the British Goveru- xnent, and the amount of influence brought to bear by them on the under- taking. In 1869 British Columbia hud been invited to enter con federal ioq, and the aubject was introduced to the notice of her people through the instru- mentality of that despatch from which he would read a short extract. " Her Majesty's Government anticipate that the interest of every Province of British North America will be more ad vanced by enabling the wealth, credit and intelligence of the whole to be brought to to bear on every part, than by encourag ing each in the contracted policy of tak- ing care of itself, possibly at the expense of its neighbour. Most especially is this true in the case of internal transit, it is OTident the establishment of British line of communication between the A tlantic and Pacific Oceans is far mere feasible by the operations of a single Government, responsible for the progress of both shores of the continent, than by a bargain ne- gotiated between separate, perhaps in aome respects, rival Governments and Legislatures. The San Francisco of iBritisb North America would, under these oircumstancee, hold a greater commer loial and political position than would be attainable by the isolated capital of British Columbia. Her Majesty's Govern- ment are aware that the distance between Ottawa and Victoria presents a real dif- £cult)r . oonstruotion of the road would be » dit- Miroutly loiing undertaking. It wu ft thing which muat be done, and the aooner tite better, without adding to the taxation of the country. Sir John Hawkshaw, the great oivil engineer, and who wan now rrcaident of the British AiHOciation, in hit inau|{ural addreu hero valuable teHtimony to tho advantage! of railwayg in buiallng up a country : be ahowed cnnolusively that the valu« of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Kailroad to the British public was more than equal to the dividends received bv tho stockholders. And that high autliority further stated that the value of the British railway Hys- tem- that Ih, its saving in oout of freight, fares and time to the public — was equal to not lers then 10 per cent, on (he totd ooat. Now, wa'know that between six hundred and sevon hundred million pounds sterling had been expended in the British Isles on railways. He there fore came to the conclusion that their annual value to the nation, over and above the demands of the shareholders, was not less than nizty million pounds sterling. Sir John Hawkshaw furlhor aaid there might be instances in which it would be justifiable for governments to aisist in the construction of railways, and declared emphatically that such advan- tages would 06 recouped speedily by the great improvement et the pouition of the people, and that, ho thouitht, was also the experience of every Oovernment ard municipality in Canada. In proof of this view. Sir John cited the case of Russia, ivhich was analogous in many respects to the Northwest. The climates were not very dissimilar. Each had tracts of country called prairids here and in Russia steppes, and both would be vastly improved by internal communico tlon. The want- cf this had been severely felt by that empire, which had buffered greatly in times of war. The standing armies of Europe te^ied to drive out the youth of that oon^ .aent to America, where they could cultivate the arts of peace, and utilize the best periods of their lives ; and thus a guarantee was afforded that the progress of that country would be rapid as soon as the road was ork. £vady been incurred with this object. I'hat they are cunscioui of this expenditure, their reticence on the subject amply testifies. I regret to hear the Government aocaaed of bre«oh of f&itb, Af violating the pledges of the country. Whpt are the factn Under the Act of Union with British Columbia, the Paclfio Railway was to be constructed. It should run over a distance of some '^700 miles starting from the Pacific Ocean, to such a point as should be designated by Ilia Excellency in Council, at or near Lake Nipissing, within ten years. The present Government having declared that upwards of two years bad elapsed without appreciable informa- tion being obtained as regarded the sur- veys already made, found itself utterly powerless to carry out the terms of union, and delegated Mr. E Igar as its charge cTaffaires to propose to British Columb'a a change, in view of the utter impobsibility of completing the line wif^'in the time stipulated. In token of ijs good fa'th and wishen, it offered them to construct the line between Esquimalt and Nanaimo, a distance of 160 miles, and costintt about $8,000,000 ; and to execute other works of recognized utility, the cost of which would have trebled this sum, in order to show the siste" province the almost instir- mountable obstacles the country had to deal with. British Columbian discontent began to manifest itself, and resort.?d even to Lord Carnarvon, who, as arbitrator, ap- proved the course adopted by the Domi- nion Government, while suggesting R ''W unimportant modifications. Since )87i it has been recognized that this stupen- dous work would be undertaken solely on condition that no fresh burdens were to be imposed on the people, as would be seen by reference to the proceedings of the Lower Hous«>, which in the month rf April of that ye»»r adopted a redolution proposed in this sense by Sir Geo. Car- tier, and thia too in presence of Mr. Trutoh, one of the delegates, who 8incv> has occupied the highest social position in his province. While readily admitting that this express condition was not in- cluded in the terms of union, British Columbia ought to abandon her hitherto hostile attitude in view of the good will manifested subsequently in her regard by the votmg and expenditure of upwards of a million dollars for surveys in connection with the railway on her coast alone. The better ^erias offered in 1874, over and above those of the agreement, amounting toBome 130,000,000, ought to place the Governnlent beyond the reach of any un< friendly criticism. Another consideration which cannot altogether be left out of view is (he increase of the tariff in 1874. Cont,rar7 to tbe decision of 1871, to which 25 I have talludod, this increase was neces- sitated by tho enterprise in question. Hon. geatlemen trom British Col'imbia cannot charge the GoTernment with the failure of various companiee> who atteaint- ed to undertal(e this work. How should the failure to obtain money in England be laid at the doors of the present Adminis- tration ? The change of policy thus neces- sitated rendered it impossible to have the road built by a company and obliged the Government to net about the construction themselves, while they r< :^ained the au thority given by the Act V let the work to a company or comparucs competent to undertake th« const uclion. The work should be proceeded wiih prudently. Without repudiating an engagement to which they were in honour bound, which the Government will never do, it will scrupulously watch over the interests of the Confederation, of which British Columbia forms only the four hundredth part in population. In view of the re- Jusalof this honourable House last ye^r to ratify the engagement to construct a line from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, the Oovernment endeavoured to satisfy the Province by the offer of a subsidy of $750,000, to be applied exclusively to local obj-cts. Hon. senllemen wilt ob serve, l\aving in view the population of the Province, that the amount mentioned Jropre^^enta a gilt to the rest of the Domiii- i'-a of $300,000,000, if it were to be treat- «d in the same manner. It is in face of this Jib«>rAlity, in face of the earnest desire to fulfil obligations on the one side, that discontent and hostility are manifested on the other. Such conduct is unrea- BODable. Fortunately we Gnd in an Order in Council, dated the 13th of March last, thiu i^iportant paragraph, " that it is incumbent on Government to pu^h on the ooastruction of the Pacific Railway as fast as the resources of the country will permit." Everything will be done, I doubt not, to realize the accomplishment of this gigantic work, to whose importance I attach as much value as any other hon. member of this House. While I deplore the ezistini; discontent, which no argu- ment can j-jstify, the Crovemment is to be congratulated on having sucoccsfi'.ny withstood the storm, and on having nobly peformed iti duty. Consequently I pro- poso, seconded by. the Hon. Mr. F»bro, in amendment to the Amendment of my hon. friend from P'-ince Edward Island. thai; the words, "the principal condition" iu the third line of the motion of my hon. IHciDd from Caribao be abraok out and the words, *' one of the conditions," be sub- stituted therefor. Hon Mr. SCOTT said he could fully understand, an 1 make due allowance for the disappointment of his hon. friends from British Columbia had sustainc I in the non construction the Pacific Rail- wav, in accordance with the terms they had formed in 1871. When they went back to that period, and remembered the speeches that were then made, and the bright pictures that were drawn of this inter-oceaaio railway, they could not but apprehend the great disappointment that Province must inevitably f -el at the non- construction of the work. It seemed when this subject camo up for discussion thon, that the difficulties of the route were never contemplated, and only roseate pictures were drawn of the vast extent of magnificent country lying be- tween here and the Paci'ic coast. The only books that were written on it were those written by Sir George Simpson, aad the only persons who had travelled through the West were those who had travelled by the o«aoe routes, an turally experienced in the non-fulfil- ment of the terms hy Canada as had been anticipated. In order to show hon. gentlemen how thoroughly that was borne out in the cor- respondence he would now advert to the Minute in Council passed in 1874, some months later. It would be found in the copy of the report of the Minute of 17th September, 1874 ; this was the time when negotiations were passing with the Im- perial Government, the result of which was that liord Carnarvon ofiered to act as arbitrator. This Minute showed that the Government considered it wholly and entirely as a concession to British Co- lumbia, and ao. som? compensation for their dissppc'intment. Hon. Mi. CARRALL— Will the Hon^ Secretary of 8tat«> undertake to say what the exact meaning of the Minute in Council was when they made that offer of |7oO,000 ; was i'< for the relinquishment of the railway 7 Hon. Mr. SCOTT— I will tell my hon. friend i'o was honestly intended as com* pensation for the defeat of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Bill in tbis House. Hon. Mr. CARIIALL-And not for de- lays which might occur. Hon. Mr. SCO IT said it was not. Tlio Government would build the road just so soon as the circumstances of the country would warrant it. The hon. gentleman had only to look at the correspondence,. and he would see that no other possible oonoluaion could be arrived at. In the m •f-**-'W'« 21 ailway, shall lear to and Dme point in citic Ocean^ determinecl the said rail- Governor JU proposition to build a . when the jh Columbia^ lys that bad mpnts they bt it reasoD- lion here by from Etqui- the meagre saed of the it would be umbia; that ntry susoepv 'n mineral* onsideratiott >y had na- sonfulfil- by Canada In order smen how it in the cor- bdvert to the 1874, some bund in the Qute of 17th le time when rith the Im- It of which red to aot aa ced that tho wholly and firitish Co- maation for 11 the Hon. to say what Minute in thatoflfer of nquishment ;ell my bon. ed as com- > Esquimalt le. not for de> B not. Tlie road just so tihe country gentlemaa spondenoe^. er possible %U In the irst place this fEequimalt & Nanaimo Railway was offered as compensation for the delays in the construction of the Pacific Railway ; that being taken away, id the Government feeling that they |were in duty bound to make some com- lensatioD, then suggested this $7oO,000. Hon. Mr. CARRALL-We coidd not Ifind it out at the time. Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Our friends in Brit- lisli Columbia have always been so unfor- jtunate as to draw the most imjust con- I elusions. Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Unfortunately, [the organ of the Qovernment, the Toronto [Olobe, came to tbe same conclusion. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the Toronto Olobe Idid not speak the sentiments of tbe Gov- jernment, and the Government did not I consult it in passing their Orders in ICouncil. The despatch to Lord Gamar- iTon, of the 17th September, 1874, says: J*' It is proper to notice, seriatim, the seve- fral grounds of complaint as stated in the Idespatoh : — " 1st That nothing is being done by [the Dominion (Government towards com- lencing and pushing on a railway from Ssquimalt to Nanaimo." The Dominion has no engagement to ^uild such a railway, and therefore there Pcan be no just compUint that it is not [commenced. The constrmtion of such a railway was oSVred only as compensation for delay in fulfilling the engagement to I build a railway to the " Pacific seaboard." I He thought the hon. gentleman would be prepared to say there was no uncertain meaning in that ; that it was all in har- mony with the speeches and policy of the Ckivernment. If they wanted further proof of that it would be found that in ths bill of last year, and in that there was no reference to its being part of tbe Pacific Railway. But the hon. gentleman who sat at the Council Board in the late Govern- ment (Mr. Aikins), who gave his sanction to the location of the western terminus at Esquimalt, was the same gentleman who proposed to give the six months hoist to thin Bill last year, on the ground that it was simply a local road. On that occasion be had said, " By the provisions of the present Bill, not only was the Canada Pacific to be built, but in order to allay the discontent in British Columbia, in consequence of tbe Govern- ment not completing the bargain with it, thpy now proposed to build sixty miles of railway on that island, for themselves, forming no part of the Pacific Railway. He for one would not object to the BiU, but it was not so understood," And the hon. gentleman who put this motion of the paper (Mr. Carrall) also spoke on ii as a local work, and the hon. gentleman who spoke first tbis afternoon used very much the same terms. Under these oir* cumstances he did not see how this Gov- ernment were justified in putting this heavy expense on the Dominion for what his hon. friend (Mr. Carrall) had called " a local work." He thought it was per- fectly clear and consistent from the be- ginning, and that this Souse and this country k» ew precisely what the policy of the Government was with respect to the Eaquimait Railway. Not a word or line was ever written ciy this Government that would justify the conclusion that it was to form part of the Paoifio Railway. A point was attempted to be made out of the fact *liat tbis Government had gone on and anticipated — so to speak — the construction of this work. When they found that their predecessors in office had committed themselves to the con- struction of this road on the island and carry it as far as Esquimalt, when they found British Columbia was anxious for it, and that Lord Carnarvon had made' it part of the terms, the Ministry were justified in coming to the conclusion that Parliament would ratify the solemn treaty entered into with British Co- lumbia on the arbitration of the leading Minister of the Imperial Govern- ment. They thought, therefore, they were quite safe in making arrangements for the construction of tbe road, as no one would have believed it possible that those gentlemen who had formerly put their record on paper that this road was to be part of the Pacific Railway, and E'lquimalt was to be the terminus, Jwoulci have been lirat and foremost in- voting down tbis Bill. Hon. Mr. MACPHER30N— The Gov- ernment s^nt the rails to British Colum- bia after the Bill wai lost. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said they were order- ed before the Bill was lost, and it was the action of this House that prevented their being used. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It was your own supporters who threw out the Bill. Hou. Mr. SCOrr said the hon. gentle- man (Mr. Campbell,) led him to the conclusion that his policy was "party first and British Ckilumbia afterwards." When the proposition was read first on the floor of this House that 9750,000 should be given to British Columbia, that gentleman announoed at the outset that T 2B ■fi he prepared to vote it down, but still the hon. gentleman from British Columbia would cling to the Opposition fi-om whom they never received one single assurance beyond the mere empty speeches that were made that this line would be carried out. He had pretty clearly establ'.Bh--d that the course of the Govei-nment with reference to the Esquimau and Nanaimo Railway was tolera^>ly consistent throughout. He did not desire in any way to reflect on the late Govern- ment for their apparent inactivity in allowing two years to go over before com- mencing the construction of this work, because, he believed, after these two years had passed they had Just began to appreciate the mag- nitude of the work. Before that fine Bpeeehes were made of what this coun- try was to be when this railway would be constructed. One would suppose from residing the speeches msde m those days that a fairy wand was to touch the coun- try and at once the railway would spring into existence ; the stem fact that a rail- way through 2,700 miles of wilderness had to he made, compassed and travelled, had not been studied. When the solemn compact was entered into with British Columbia there were not five men living who had ever gone over the line of what be hoped would one day form the Pacific Bailway. Take the stretch of country south of Lake Nipissing and from thence north of Lakes Huron and Superior, by Lake Nepigon, and who had been over this unknown wilderness but tho traders and trappers of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, who simply saw the country from their canoes as they passed along the streams. 'J'hen coming to Fort Edmon- ton tho Rocky Mountains rose with a series cf ranges until within thirty miles of the Pacific they found themselves ^,000 feet above the level of the sea. And yet hon. gentlemen would say this Government bad not done their dutv because they had not rushed blindly into the construction of this road Uis hon. friend opposite (Mr. MRD moved the ad- journment of the House, which was car- ried. Friday, March 31. The PRESIDENT took the chair at 3 p. m. After routine. TOE PAOIFIO BAILWAT. On the resumption of the debate on Hon. Mr. Carrall's motion being called, ■Hon. aendm |>y Hon. aovcd . the w I the or Jtcad th< pognizoB itruction ith the ^ue rega iients of July inci egrets Jovernn 29 'or the whole JHon. Mr. DICKEY proposed an lendment to the amendment proposed |>y Hon. Mr. Haythome to the resolution aoved by Hon. Mr. Carrall, to leave out in the words after the word "resolved " the original resolution, and to add in- stead thereof, "that this House fully re- cognizes the obligation to secure the oon- ptniction of the Canada Facifio Railway, rith the u'^most speed compatible with a lue regard to the other financial require- ments of the Dominion, and without un- luly increasing the rate of taxation, and agrets that the course adopted by the Government, in connection with this mat- er, has nr>t mot the expectations of the people of British Columbia, nor has it been ^uob as to facilitate the development of Hon. Mr. SCOTT then rose to resume Ills speech of the previous evening. After ^tatins his position at the adjournment of lie House, he said his bon. fri«nd Opposite seemed to think that the 1750,000 offered to British Columbia Iras compensation for future delays. He lid not think the spirit of the oorres- bondence warranted any such conclusion, pe spirit of the Order in Council was erfectly clear that the object of the Gov- rnment was to compensate the Province }r delays incidental to the construction |f the road. Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Wag the money |>ffered for the relinquishment of the Is id Railway, or for delays which had or light occur in the construction of the transcontinental road ? Hon. Mr. SCOTT said— In the first |)lace, the offer to build the island road jtras in consideration of the delays in the Bonotruction of the main line. That offer vas made over and above what the Gov- ernment seemed bound to do. The ^750,000 was offered in lieu of the Island k'ailway. Hon. Mr. MILLER said be bad under- stood the Order in Council differently, intil the Hon. Secretary of State had }iven this explanation. But if the Esqui lalt and Nanaimo Railway were offered iPor delays on the Mainland, and the $75U,- (1)00 were offered for the delays on the Island Railway, it must be as compensa- tiou for past and future delays. Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Certainly. Hon. Mr. MILLER asked what differ- snce it made to have the word "future*' ^n the despatch. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the objection s, that it conveyed an entirely false im- pression that the construction of the road was to be postponed until an induld seem reasonable that the people of British Columbia should con- struct this work themselves, or (if they think other local public works more ad- vantageous) should, in lieu of this, them« selves undertake such other local public works, and that the comi^ensation to be given them by Canada for any delays which may take place in the construction of the Pacific Railway, should be in the form of a cash bonus to be applied towards the local railway, or such other local works as the Legislature of British Columbia may undertake, Canada also surrendering any claim to lands which may have been reserved in Vancouver Island for railway purposes " The sum of $750,000 would appear to the Committee to be a liberal compensa- tion, and the Committee advise that the Government of British Columbia be in- formed that this Government is prepared to propose to Parliament at its next ses- sion, the legislation necessary to carry out the views contained in this Minute as to the conbtrnction of the Pacific Rail- way, and the compensation to be eivea to British Columbia for delays in «uoh con- struction." Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — The words, "for any delays which may take place in the construction of the Pacific Railway" mean the future. Hon Mr. VIDAL— And yet the Hon. Secretary of State said a few minutes ago that the $750,000 was not for delays in the construction of the main line. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it might suit bon. f;entlemen todtaw different concIusiouB rom the Order in Council than the common acceptation of the English language would warrant, and if they did, he could not help it, but ha thought it was scarcely fair to put any ^h |l I such coiietruction on it as the language dkl nut bear. The proof that such was > not the coDstruction intended by the | (iovernment was the fact that they were | then iictually increasing the expense of | and forcing on the surveys, expending ; more money than at any time since the | inception of the schem'?. The survey of ' the Intercolonial Kailway, which was only I one sixth the length of the Pacific Rail- | way, with large cities at either end and ! tl trough a settled district, eas^y of access, j occupied five years, three years by Major j Eobinson and two years by Mr. Sandford Fleming. When it took such a length of { time to survey the Intercolonial, hon. ! gentlemen could draw their own doduc- j tions as to to the length of time it would take to locate the PaciRo Railway ^hich { from T.ake Nipissing to the other side of the liocky Mountains bad scarcely one hundred inhabitants along the line. There was no possible parallel in the length of time that it would take to locate it as compared with the Intercolonial. Hon. Mr. HOWLAN— At the time the $7rjO,(X)0 was offered to British Columbia, was there not a promise with it to con- struct the road in fourteen ycurs ? Hon. Mr. SCOTT said tae Government accepted the award of Lord Carnarvon, but this was no reference to Lord Carnar- von's award, but simply a substitution fot it. It was not necessary to renew an offer that was then in existence; they (the Government) simply accepted it. Hon. Mr. DICKEY called attention again to the paragraph in the minute in Council above referred to, "for any delays which may take place," etc., and sisked if that did not mean delays in the future. Hon. Mr. SCOTT again denied such was the policy of the Government. lie thought hon gentlemen ought not to be so captious and sceptical; the language was tben^, and he was sorry it did not suit his hon. frient to draw proper deductions from it It was another illustration of the truth of the old saying, "Convince a man against his will, and he's of the same opinion still.'" Hon. Mr. CORNWALL asked the hon. Secretary of State to explain the fact thet when the minute in Council was pub- lished, and after the Government had abandoned the construction of the Es- (juimalt and Nanaimo Railway, during that time and subsequently they bad sur- veyors at work ou the line. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the hon. gentle- man was aware that the Hon. Mr. Mac- kenzie went over to Englanended it they met with opposition. He would explain some of the difficulties ' the Government had to coatund against in the surveys in British Columbia. He bt^lieved the distance of the three routes that had been surveyed from Edmonton i to the coast averaged somewhere in the neighbourhood of S(X) miles. The com- 1 puted distance by Yellow Head Pass aad i Fort George to Bute Inlet was 800 miles, ; but the route further north would shorten i that distance. In the first thirty milei j from tbe Pacific coast the rise was S,000 feet. That was where the difficulty came { in, as any hon. gentleman experienced in j railway matters would easily understand. Hon. Mr. CORNWALL asked why the Government did not adopt the route that I was easy from the Rocky Mountains to j Victoria. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said no doubt if the I hon. gentleman had been appointed Chief Engineer it would have been a great | service to the Government, but unfortu- nately for the country, no doubt, these services ba( I not been offered. However. I thoy had obtained what was considered j the best engineering talent in the coun- try, a ^'er.tleman who had the respect I and confidence ot all )>artieB, I and they believed thai gentleman was (luite competent to be entrusted I with this great work. The money which I had been (^xi)8nded was under his direc- tions, and he thought it was judiciously laid out. From the returns from that [ gentlemf.n's office he found that the ex- penditures year by year on the east side j of tbe Rock Mountains were as follows in j round numbers : — To the 30th of June, 1S72 $194,000 1 " " " 1873 345,000 " " " 1S74 199,000 " " « 1875 290,000 :u I early in the >n it was sup- be built sur- coDtinent to the Bill was ight advisable jrk would be ht of building ^ould not his first to con- id say it was injury after to locate the stopped by Hon. gentle- auit no matter t would take, end the money )08ition, and if irith opposition, the difficulties >ntttnd against Columbia. lie te three routes om Edmoutoii le where in the P8. The com- Head Pass and was 800 miles, I woald shorten it thirty miles rise was 3,00* ) difficulty camp ex])erienced in ily understand, asked why the '• the route that Y Mountains to ao doubt if the ^en appo'nteil ve beonagre.it It, butunfortu ) doubt, these ed. Howevei, was considered It in the coun- .d the respect all ))arties, li gentleman i be entrusted I money which der his direo- fsa judiciously I as from that d that the ez- the east side e as follows in I And for the half year ended 31st, 187'/, $246,000, neaily double what had been expended in any previous six months. The amounts expended on the west side of the Rocky Mountains during the same periods were, in 1872 |20.j,000 1873 215,000 ]874 111,000 1875 183,000 and to the 31st Docomber of 1875, $204,- 000. He thought this entirely bore out the statement he had made a few ! minutes ago that during the time these negotiations were going on with British Columbia the Government were pushing on the surveys more vigorously than ever The total amount ex])ended in surveys was $2,280,987. It had been urged yes- terday by an hon. gentleman that the Government were not building this road in accordance with the terms of the Act, which provided that it should be con- structed by private companies. No doubt such was the intention of the Act, but the Government felt that if they postponed all the work on the road until the whole line was finally locbted, so that it could be offered to private compa- nies, very serious delays would necessarily arise. The Government thought it better to proceed with the grading of the road at such points as the line had been finally located, and thus give to the country an earnest indication that they were proceeding with this work with all the despatch in their power. The sec- tions between Fort William and Bed Iliver were undertaken in order to open up communication with the Northwest as speedily as possible. They also put under oontiact the grading of the Pembina Branch and the line some seventy miles east from Selku'k with the idea that when tbe proper time came, they would be in a position to place the road on the market with the view of inviting capitalists to undertake the work, and this part being dene as cheaply as it was possible to do it would be taken by the contractors as part of the main line. That was another proof that the Government were endeav- ouring to push on this work as rapidly as possible. In addition to this, tenders were invited for the construction of the telegraph lino wherever the railway had baen located. The contracts that were Hiven out under tenders were rapidly pushed forward, and on the line from Fort William to Selkirk, 41 4 miles, the amount paid was $49,000, and from Selkirk to Livingston, 206 miles, they tiad paid $56,- GOO, From Livingston to Battle River, ho understood, the line was in operation. Hon. Mr. MlLLEli asked what the hon. gentleman meant by the line being in operation. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the wires were Strang. Hon. Mr. MILLER- Then I am to uu.. derstand from that that portion of the railway line is located. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was the por- tions located he had given .as from Fort William to Lac des Mille Lac. Fi-om- there to Hat Portage the line had not yet been located. Several surveys h'id been made, but the country was intersected with water stretches, and it was found to be very difficult to establish a good line. From Cross Lake to .Selkirk, the line was under contract. The whole distance from Fort William to Selkirk was 414 miles: it was assumed that it would not exceed- that. From Selkirk west the next point was Livingston, 226 miles, where the line was located. From that point to Edmon- ton, a di'jtanoe of 52(J miles, the line was also located. From Edmonton to the Pacific, about 8(X) miles, was where the difficulty came in. Several lines had been surveyed — one by Yellow Head Pass. It was possible thi^t that line might be selected, and if it were, the distance from Edmonton to the entrance of that Pass was 250 miles. From Yel- low Head Pass, assuming that that part of the line would be adopted, it would be 250 miles to Fort George, where another serious difficulty arose. From there two or three different lines had been sur- veyed. The lower line to Btite Inlet, on the Pacific Coast, was 300 miles. To Gardner Inlet was the other route, of which he was not preptai^d to give the Hon. Mr. CARBALL— Then I am to infer from what the hon. Secretary of State has stated that the Government have decidevt to abandon the Fraser River route from Yellow Head Pass ? Hon. Mr. SCOTT- 1 have stated that from Edmonton difficulties still existed, but from the information I have received, the route from there by the Yellow Head Pass would be selected, and beyond that it was impossible to say what particular route would be adopted. Hon. Mr. CARRALL— The hon. gentle- man has mentioned in bis remarks re- specting the distances three different routes, one of which would probably be selected, but in thj three routes be had 32 not named the Fraser River, and I there- fore inferred that it had been aban- doned. Hon. Mr. vSCOTT said he regretted he oould not give the hon gentlemen the information, as the line was not yet lot- tled upon beyond Yellow Hend Pass, but there were ei^'ht different surveying par- ties in that country, with an average strength of from thirty to forty men, en gaged in exploring for a line. The ex- pense of the work already done through- out, down to December Slst, 1875, was as follows :— Surveys $2,287,207 Construction 360,000 Telegraph account 170,000 $2,817,207 To this amount add the amount for steel rails, $2,000,000 more, whioh would make atotalof*4,817,207. Hon. Mr. MILLER asked how the hon. gentleman included the two millions for rrils. bon. Mr. SCOTT said because they were purchased for the Pacitic Railway, and part for the Intercolonial Railway. Hon. Mr. CARRALL said there had been only a fraction of the rails sent to Thunder Bay. Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— What por- tion of the work is the two million dollars charged to. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was for tho construction on the whole work. The Government felt the responsibility that hod been thrown upon tbeni, and they proposed tn carry nut the work Just as rapidly as the circumsi'jiceB of the coun- try would warrant them doing, and no faster. He did not think it was in the interest of the !Q0minion that it should be saddled with an enormous debt and be ren- dered at th(! same time incapable of finish- ing this work. Everybody must know that the project entered into by the late Gov- ernment in 1871-72 to construct this road by a private company was simply im- possible. It was quite evident that any company formed at that time must have broken down, as the scheme was utterly impracticable. The 800 miles in British Columbia could not be built for less than $60,000 per mile. Was this House pre- pared to pass a resolution of censure upon the Government because they had not taken out of the coffers of the country $5,000,000 more than they already done ' towards the construction of this work. He thought not. He did not think they would place themselves in a false position before the country ; they were beyond the populur vote and above the ordinary influences that affected the lower Chamber. They had a higher and more important duty, and it was for them to say whether tho Government had nou acted fairly and lionestly towards British Columbia. He appealed to hon. gentle- men to rise superior to political exigencies and influences . He w«s quite aware of the position which the Government held in this House, but he had faith in the good sense and sound judgment of hon. gentlemen, that they would net for a matter of mere party triumph let it go forth to the country that the Senate had censured the Government, because they had not expended more than five millions of dollars on the construction of the Pacific Railway, as that would be the only deduc- tion that would be drawn from the motion of the hon. gentleman, if it were carried. At the request of Hon. Mr. Scott, Hon. Mr. Dickey read Ixis amendment. Hon. Mr. SCOTl" said the natural con- clusion to be drawn from the resolution was, that they should not satisfy British Columbia at the expense of the other Provinces, but that the undivided energies of the Government should be devoted ta building the road into the Northwest. Hon. Mr. CARKALL remarked that the terms of union demanded that the road should be commenced at both ends. Hon. Mr. SCOIT said the resolution ac- cused them of failure of duty, in not de- veloping the Northwest. Hon. Mr. CARRALL— You have failed everywhere. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was quite im- possible to satisfy the hon. gentleman. He thought $750,000 very fair compensation for 15,000 people, and that they could have made good use of the money. He believed that British Columbia would be the favoured portion of Canada before thie century rolled over, but they could not anticipate that period, nor lose sight of their duty towards the rest of the Do- minion. Hon. Mr GIRARD rose to express his concurrence in the amendmenv before the House. He regretted that the great scheme to put the Atlantic Ocean in com- munication with the Pacific had not been consummated. He did not blame the Government for expending too much or too little, but heblamed them for impro- per expenditure. The first scheme was for the oonatruotinn of the road by private companies; with the aid of large subsidies 33 have failed of land and money. ITe approved of that •flbeioe ; and was of opinion that the water stretch policy of the present Administra- tion would result in throwing money into the water. Some sections would profit by it ; but tho loss to the whole Dominion would be great. He was glad that the Hon. Secretary of State had declared it to be the intention of the present Govern- ment to build the road, but he would ask what had been cione up to the present time, and if British Columbia had not some reason to feel uneasy at the present position of aifclaimed boing actuated by pirty spirit, on behalf of thoso with whom he had the honour to act and for himwelf. Their only desire wa^ to see ton to Edmonton the telegraph was fin- ibat g<)od faith was kept with British >h line ; but I mistaken in nished; from Selkirk to Livingston, I men tioned that $50,600 had been paid on account of progress, and the line from Livingston to Bc 'edinj? too rapidly than too slowly, n'ld vtV.en the Govern- ment, acceding ia th» viahesof Lord Car- narvon, undertook t -/rovide for the con- gtructiou of a t.'^jltviv/ from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, involving an expenditure of up- wards of |2,(XX),(XX) on Vancouver Isknd, work in no way a part of tbe lacific Railway, they evidently under- took to do somewhat tco mucb. This local work at present was entirely unne- cessary, could only be made available from tbe main land by a further expendi- ture of an enormous sum of money, and while it might add to the value of the city of Victoria and its vicinity, it would not serve tbe interests of the more scat- tered portion of the people of the Prov- ince. The reference to Lord Carnarvon, by which the Government of this country became complicated with this undertak- ing, was unfortunate, and the thanks of the country are due to tbe Senate for refusing to sanction the Bill of last ses- sion, and he hoped the Minutes of Coun* cil bv the late Administration, providing- for this work and the making of Ksqui- malt tbe terminus of thePat-itio Railway,, would have no influence on future aotic . The problem was sutBciently oomplicatev and difficult of solution without this addi- tional burthen, which certainly could never have bee" /'Onsidored a tine qui non in arrant' ' OBsibIe to forget wholly the other works of equal utility, and which the Qovernment are equally in honour bound to construct — and one of these is the Baie de Verte Canal. (Hear, hear, by Hon. Mr. Dickey.) Hon. y.r. MACPHERS0:T— Was that one of the articles of confederation 7 Hon. Mr. MoCLELAN said it was so completely understood and agreed on by the delegates, that it waa not deemed ne- cessary to place it on paper. Hon- M!r. MaoPHERSON-lTiat canal was only like any other public work of the Dominion. Hon. Mr. MoCLELAN— Not altogether. The Qovemment were in honour bound to build it before even the purchase of the North- West was made. But like the Pacific Railway, it has suffered some delay, though not from the same cause. It cannot, however, be ignored wholly, if the chief object of the Confederation— the promotion of a free exchange of Pro- vincial products— be fully realized. Re- verting to the Georgian Bay Branch and the abondonment of the contract by the mutual consent of Mr. Foster and the Government, he felicitated the Adminis- tration on the opportunity now afforded of delaying for some years the further prosecution of this work — and relieved also from all embarrassments ai to the Vancouver Island expenditure, greater attention can be paid to the central sec- tions, and the vigorous though careful explorations of the Rooky Mountains and the Pacific slope with a view of determm- ing the very best route through that most difficult section of country, where no less than three lines Iiave already beencur- ■orily examined, and it may be found that still another and more feasible route may yet be secured. In determining the best and cheapest location for a railway of this extent, involving an ultimate ex- penditure of $150,000,000, and entailing an annual outlay of $8,000,000 in the running expenses, the utmost, care should be exercised. The experipuce of the late Government should be a warning for the futurA^ and the prophetic utterances in 1871 of the hon. gentleman now Minister of Agriculture, when he said that like the projectors of the Tower of Babel, the Government would be scattered, would continue to apply to successive Adminis- trations, if the utmost prudence and care be not exercised. He (Mr. McClelAn) en< tertalned a favourable opinion of tho climate and renoarces of Britiah Columbia, and had recently listen* ed with interest to the description of that Province by a gentlerann con- nected with the Geological Survey, who accounted for tha mildness of the climate by thoactionof the tidal currents on the coast. This gentleman's perfect acijuain- tance with all classes of the people theria enabled him to say too that they were truly Canadian in feeling and sympathy and excepting a very few interested grumbbrs there were no indications of disloyalty whenever, and hci was surprised, in 1871 as well as on other occasions, to hear of secessionist tendencies in that Province. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL did not thijok any ouo bad expressed that view. Hon. Mr. McCLELAN said secession had been mentioned bs a probability, and that like Alaska, Columbia might pass into the hands cii he felt it his duty tQ support the Government in proceeding Trith this great work in the interests of the Canadian pec;>'3 and with a rorreoi appreciation of the ..Tieaus aai resources of the country. Hon. Mr. VIDAL said he had listened with great regret to the unjust and un- necessary charge of paitizauship pre- ferred against so many members of thia House by the Hon. Secretary of State . Nothing in the conduct of the members justified the assertion t^at they were ac- tuated by ijnproper or unworthy motiveii. Hon. Mr. SCOTf — I made no charge. ^ d' 38 ill Hod. Mr. VIDAL said be took down the words of the hon. gentlemaD at the time, and he said they were "putting party first and the country afterwards." He did , not suppose that anything he would say would remove the hon. member's preju- dices, and be would not have referred to this charge were it not that the hon. member from Victoria hud also made a similar observatios, although not in so offensive a mancer. That gentleman, carried away by his anxiety to promote Vie interests of his own Province, and thinking they might be endangered by our action, had said we sacrificed British Columbia to party spirit in voting against ,the Esquimalt llailway. He repndiated that allegation, not only for himself but other members, for no one in giving the vote to which tbehon. member referred, vras influenced by the leabt desire to sac- rifice British Columbia or to jeopardise her interests. They claimed on the con- trary to be her best friends, and so voted, because they felt that if the Esquimalt dc l^auaimo K&Uway was constructed it would unquestionably postpone the con- necting of British Columbia with the Provinces of the east, and it certainly was not needed for local trafiic. He was glad this subject had been introduced in this House, where its diiiiculties could be more satisfactorily dealt with than by ap- peal to England. He thought it was a mistake on the part of British Columbia to carry their grievance in the first place to the foot of the throne. Coercion on the part oi the Imperial Government would neither be attempted nor submitted to on a question of this kind ; it should laa left to the good sense and honourable feeling which would undoubtedly charac- terize the Parliament of Canada. The amendment which had been introduced by Senator Dickeyi and which be inteu*!- ed to support, showed tbat they did not approve the strong language of the original motion, or wish this question to assume a party com- plexion. He had read the returns brought down very carefully, and be thought tharo was suffioisnt ground for British Columbia assuming the position she did. The Minute in Council said : — "The i)ropoHPtt llnllwny from Estiulmalt to Kanalino Uw^h not form a portion ol" tlie Crnur dlan I'liolllc liiiUwuy, iih defined by the Act: It waslntondod tobiMioHt loeal lntere.st«, and was proposed as compensation for the dlsnp- iwlnunent experienced by the unavoidable delay In eonstructlng the railway acroNs the ^aopiinent." • Isow what was implied by the idea of ojmi)enBation ? Was it not an acknow- ledgement that some wrong had bet'n done and it was to make reparation or atone- ment therefor . Hon Mr. SCOTT— The wrong was done by our predecessors. Hon, Mr. VIDAL— Do«s the hon. gentle* man mean to say that they agreed to construct the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway as compensation for the neglect of the trans-continental road ? Hon. Mr. SCOTT— If there was disap- pointment it arose from the policy of the late Government. Hon. Mr. VIDAL said he was not talk- ing about the Eailway policy of either Government, but endeavouring to estab- lish iMs narticular point, that if no wrong had "been done, there was no neces- sity for compensatior. Further down the same Minute proceeded to say : — " It would seem reasonable that the people of British Columbia should construot tnfs work themselves, or (If they think other local pub Ic works more advantageous) should. In lieu of this, themselves undertake such other looal public works, and that the compen- sation to be given them by Canada for any delays which viau take place In the construc- tion of the I'aclfle Riillwny, should be In tho form of a cash bonus." When it was first charged that these terms applied to future delays, the t*eore- tary of State denied that it was the real meaning of the Minute, and it was not until the :jattei wai pressed closely that it was acknowledged to mean compensa- sation for delay in the construction of the Pacific Railway. That doccument might be laid before any English scholar and it would be almost impossible for him to attach any other meaning to the words than the interpretation placed upon them b^'tue Province, which wai that its acceptance of the proposal mi^'ht defer tbi» construction of the load for an indefinite period, and under such circum- stances British Columbia was pe' »otly justified in refusing the bribe ' oncur in the delay. The charge mau^ ogainst British Columbia that she only desired the ezpendi.^.ure of money within her own borders was not fair ; the people bad a right to expect thav *.hp toims of union should be honestly carried out, as speed- ily as possible, and this expectation was justified ly public opinion everywhere. Mr. Dorion, at the general election 'n 1874, asserted that the policy of the Government} with respect to the Pacific Railway would bo very much the same aa that of their predecessors. This was distinctly and oleariy stated, and went over the country as an assurance that ttiis gr«'«t undertaking would be honestly ad- N... ii.--. -J 39 opted and energetically carried out. When the Premier broached the Bcheme of utilizing the water stretches in bis speech at Sarnia, the impression code on the minds of his he'i'ers was that he proposed to use the waters of the La!^es Huron and Superior, and also those lying between those lakes and the Rooky Moun- tains ; but it was not then understood to be antagonistic to a future all-rail line. Under the subsequent development of that policf, such as the proposed con- struction of the Georgian Bay branch and the Thunder Bay Road, it was not to be wondered at that the iieople of British Columbia did not give the Govern- ment credit for any sincere intention of carrying out the work on the main line, especially where the obligations to do so were spoken of as " appalling," and their fulfilment as an impossibility. That they were serious no one denied, but they did not cause the late Government to stand aghast, for they felt that the com- pletion of the work was neoeasary to the ▼ery existence of the Dominion, and that its abandonoient would speedily ruin our prospects. This question has been too much regarded as one afieoting the Pro- vince of British Columbia and the disap- pointed people of that country alone { he regarded it as equally affecting the Do- minion as m whoio, for this road is a na- tional necessity, and many thousands of our people ware disappointed, as »eU as thci ptople of BrlMfih Cclumyp., that tl'e rocu w^s not pushed fcrward. Nobody had found fault with the expenditures Vrhich the Government had made in sui- veye ; everybody approved of it } every- bark, the road, and that they were only delay- ing it until they found a good route^ British Columbia would havo recogniaed too fully the good feeling of the Dominion towards them to find fault with the Gov- ernment for not doing what it was im- possible to accomplish. But there were avowed intentions and attempts to ex- pend millions of dollars on branch lin<3s wh'oh should have been expended on iha main line. Why not take tbe monejr proposed to be expended on the Eaqui- malt and Nanaimo Railway and expend it upon the road going e&at from the Pacific coast; that would have shown that the Government recognized the rights of British Columbia and ware sincere in their endeavour to carr^r out the work. Again, there was an attempt to spend millions of dollars on the Georgian Bay Branch, which under no circumstances could form a part of the main line. - More recently there was the proposal to con- struct a railway connectmg Sed Rivtir with Thunder Bay, Lake Superior. Of the western section of this line he cordially approved, as it would form part of the main line itself from Red River eastward to Rat Fottaiie, and he was glad to learn it was under contract ; but of the east«ra section ha could not approve-, particularly that part now under contract from Lac des Mille Lacs to Prince Arthur's Landing, which was not and could not form a por- tion of tbe main line without diverging forty tt fifty miles outof the proposed route of the Pacific Railway. There was uo gooil r^.*ion for taking that route to go to Red Rivei . As a matter of fact the main P!«.ciifio liii.i Si'ut pi^sa Itetween Like Nc.'jigcr. and Lake Superior, and from th6:!ce westward to Rat Portage and on to Revl Riyer. That was the line of the Paoifio Railway, as defined in tae Engineer's report ; but what reason there was to start from l.'hunder Bay westward) and thus necessitate the construction of sixty-four miles additional railway, he could dog imagine. Nepigon Bay was as good a harbour as Thunder Bay, and vessels could, with a suggested improvement of the Nepigon River, come up to the main line of the Pacific Railway. It was claimed that Thunder Bay was opened eight days earlier in the spring than Nepigon Bay, bu i would it be wise to incur the addition- al expense of the construction and per- pe.ual maintenance of sixty four miles of railway for the sake of eight days of oAvis gation. But they did not secure this amall advantage by going to Thunder Bay, as tbe robd la to commence ten miles 4» I *-• I •■m> m from Prince Arthur's Landing on the Kaministiquia Hirer, and the ice did not clear from that river any earlier than from Nepigon Bay. Tie .'nentioned these facts to show that there were grounds for the belief which prevailed in the minds of many, that it was not the intention of the Chjvemment to go on with the oarly con- Btruction of the through rail line. Had the Government assumed a different atti- tude towards this work ; had they ener- getically taken up the scheme of the railway as left by their predecessors — not bound, of coursp, to adopt all its details — difficulties whicn they ^el to be so over- whelming would not have presented themselves. A transcontinental railwajr was not a new and questionable experi- ment, success in such an enterprise having (Iready been achieved in the United Si^ates ; but an attempt was made to show that it could not be a commercial Si ~i>' •'< re^i as follows :— "That this House fully recognizee „i >3 obli- gation to secure the construction o'' the Cana* alun Pacific Railway with the u'jioat speed compatible with a due regard to the other financial requirements of the '.'omlulon, ant} wlthor.t unduly Increasing **io rate of taxa- tion." 80 far he would support the resolution, but when it goes on to say : — "And regretH Government in connect'.' has not met the cxpectivt BrltlHl.. Columbia noi ' : facilitate the dovelopm; n hat the cciirse adopted by the wlUi tills matter i'f the people of bv9n Kuch as to .'■'C' Ncr-West," ale J to i^resB .71 ch too much It Btr\ick him as being c upon the Government haste, and in carrying it out with too much hiiu ^hele might be less speed. He be* iie^rou \itat year when the vote had been ta! ^\ a&t killed the Esquimalt and H^uaicxo Bill it relieved the Government I from a very heavy responsibility, and left them iu a very much better position be- foic the country. Ferha[is that was not the intention of the members who voted against the Bill, but no doubt it had that 41 / effect. He did not happen to be in the House at the time, but if he had been he would have added one more to the major- ity against the Bill. He thought in large questions of State this House should rise above mere party feeling and party obli- gations, in order to do what they believed Tvas for the greatest benefit of the coun- try. He feared if this resolution was carried it would not be in the interests of the Dominion, and he believed it ex- pressed more than the country were willing to sustain. He considered that the Government were doing all the coun- try desired them to do with regard to the coDstruction of this road — more than they could aSbrd to do in the proBsed circumstances of the Dominion. One hon. gentleman sugge-ted that the work could be commenced at both ends, but the weatorn end of the line had not yet been determined. Surely it was not desirable under these circum- stances that the country be involved in the expenditure of millions and millions of dollars that might utterly ruin the credit of Canada without knowing whether the road were really practicable. He thought it would be only folly on the part of any Government, no matter what their obligations might be, to proceed so hastily. If Parliament pledged itselt to the con- struction of this road in ten years, it was only on the understanding that it could be done in that time without unduly pressing upon the resources of the coun- try. During the time the Bill was before Parliament there was a representative here from British Columbia, the Lieut.- •Gov . of thut Province — duly delegated by that Province, and be urged upon the members of this House — he spoke from personal knowledge of the facts — by all means to pass the Bill, to never mind the ton years' limit, it was not obligatory, an it was only intended to express some definite time, to which they wtre not boond. Inasmuch as a company or firm are bound by the act of their agent, so he considered the Government of « country were also bound by the acts of their agent. He never felt that Canada was bound to go further than the conditions embodied in the resolutions passed at that time by the House of Commons, and by the interpretation of the Act as given by Lieutenant-Governor Trutoh. Any one having the slightest conception of the diiBoulties of the route must have known from the very inception of the scheme that there would be no po8sibilii.y of locat- ing that road in loss than five years. Hon. MnCARRALL said Mr. Trutcli iim. ply came over here to turn up some of the archives of the country, and he had no authority to give the assurance he did by the Government of British Columbia. Hon. Mr. EEESOIl said he took it that when the accredited agent of a country appeared in another, his utterance^, made in an official capacity, were bindiag on the country which he represented. He did not think, from the statements of the representatives of British Columbia themselves, that they desired the Govern- ment of Canada to be placed in such a position as to damage their credit at home and abroad ; they did noSdesire that the expenditure on this railway should be more rapid than the country could reason- ably afford. Taking that view of the case he thought they had no reason to com- plain of the expenditures of the Govern; ment up to the present time. He di 1 not rely solely upou the statements of the Government alone, because they coul4 not have had actual practical observation of the work that had been going on that the engineers had, and it was no seorep that the Chief Engineer had stated un- hesitatingly that the worK: was being car- ried on with the utmost care and vigilanoe, and as rapidly as it was possible to do it without incurring a great deal of useless and unnecessary expenditure. It would not be a very great while until the road was located in British Columbia, but uiitu that line would be loouted in the beat possible place the contract should not be let. Coming farther this way, between Thunder Bay and Bed Biver » great deal had been said about the water stretches. They had several water stretches that were very valuable, and it was only natural when the Premier was first installed an officer that he should look round to see whether some of the appalling expenses and responsibilitjT could not be saved or averted for a little time by utilizing the water stretches and connecting them with railway sections which would afterwards forci portions of the main line. It was conton led that the section from Thunder Bay should not have been constructed ; that it should have been started from Nepigon Bay. it was well known that the neighbourhood of Nepigon Bay both east and west wak an exceedingly rocky country, with im- mense engineering difBculties that could not be overcome without enormous ex- penditure of money ; it was even yet doubtful whether a route would be secured between Lake Nepi{;on and Laki Hi 42 II' i )^i f\ Superior thpt the Oovernmcnt would be warranted in adopting, so that it might yet be possible that they would have to go north of Lake Nepigon. The section from Thunder Bay to Bed Biver was the most important point at present ; beyond that to the Rocky Mountains there would be very little difiSculty ; miles of track could be laid in a single day. He consid- ered tbat to undertake to build the road ^ t present from Lake Nipiasing east over •veil hundred miles of barren country terly unsettled was unnecessary, and it ./ould entail an enormous expenditure of money. He thought if the Government should abandomtbe Georgian Bay Branch altogether an)Ut it was an indication that the Govern- uent had not neglected their interest, knd he thought, therefore, it would be the feeliag of this House not to support this asolution. Hon. Mr. SKEAD said, as seconder of k;he amendment of the member from Prince Edward Tsland, be thought it bia iuty to say a few words at this 8t»ge. In khe first place it was necessary that he should put himself right ia this House. It was well known that when this Island ilway was before this douse last session le haid voted for it, and he believed in loing BO be had acted in the interests of the country, and in accordance with the Dmpact entered into with British Colum- l>ia at the time of Confederation. He had voted consistently for the present Govern- lent scheme of railways and water- Btretoher, and be would now be consistent on this occasion. As far as the tirst pai t sf the resolution was concerned it would leet with his approval, as his sympathies vere with thts people of British Columbia, bnt he could not go so far as to censure fche Government of the day for the large Bxpenditures that were being made on fche Welland and Lacbine canals, which ras the effect of the latter part of the notion. He would do what he considered vas right in this matter, independent of party, and when any question came op as Btween country and party he wouid ftke the side of country. Ho would go I far as any lion, gentleman on the floor ;f this Uouse in sticking by his part7, but Then he came on the floor of this House I far as his humble abilitios guided him Ihe was determined to avoid party feeling. flf a vote could be carried in this House in condemnation of the general policy of the Government that would be eflfective, it would have his support, but the way it was picked up piece meal to get up a cry against theGovernment, he could not join it although he had been twitted because he did not. He was something of a mechanic, and he knew that the first thing to do in building a railway was to get the plans and profiles, then when the contract was given out the contractors would know what to da Although they had survey- ors at work in British Columbia, it would take several months of careful calculation to place the result of their explorations on paper in order to prepare for the giving out of contracts. The country was pledged to the construction of the road, and although he did not think it would be built in ten or twelve years, it would be as soon as the resources of the country would permit. An hon. gentleman gave it as his opinion that the railway should go north of Lake Nipissiog. He agreed with him, that was where the late Gov- ernment intended to start it. He thought ^ it would be also wise if the present Government would take advice in time, and improve the navigation of French River by constructing two or three locks and in that way get into Lake Nipissing ; then they could start their roaii from the south east comer of the lake and find a direct route to Pembroke. No doubt British Columbia did riglit in refusing the $750,000 that was offered to them in compensation. If be had lived there he would have done the same thing, much as he would like to assist the Government in what he believed to be right. Gentlemen upon the other side of the House had seldom or never been known to vote against the Government except upon that particular occasion, and indeed he had very grave doubts about the sincerity of the members of the Min- istry uhemselves in that respect. He was informed there were valuable coal mines on Vancouver island, and if Victoria was to be the great coal depot of the Pacific coast nothing was more wanted than the railway. He had himself always voted consistently upon this question, but he repeited his belief that the Government hcul taken some of their supporters to a quiet place and given them a bint to vote the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Branch down. The true course to take upon this oco«sion was to neg, '■^■'e the resolution and the amendment to the amendment^ and support the amendment of his hon. friend from Prince Edward Island. He, at least, was going to adopt that course. 44 i lion. Mr. PENNY said he would not liave risen upon this occasion except for several observationB that had been made respecting himself. For his own part, he had never believed very much in the grand hopes some people entertained with respect to the Pacifio Railway. Ills own impression had been, as was well ex- pressed by hon. gentlemen upon both sides of the House, that the proper way to. get the road built, was to obtain the assistance of the British Government. He was neither a prophet nor the son of « prophet, but be would be very much mistaken if the railway were ever con- structed until that assistance bad been obtained, and obtained in a way very dif- ferent from that in which the bribe was thrown to us, with respect to the Wash- ineton Treaty. It had always been his opinion that it would be a long time be- fore we got to Paradise — tliat Paradise which bad been spoken of in such glow> ipg terms by many hon. gentlemen — if we had to wait to get to it by the Pacific Bailway. Nothing except the flush times "we experienced when that project was conceived could have enabled the Gov- ernment to carry it through Parliament The Imperial authorities had given $4,- 000, say it presented some of the moatj extraordmary features imaginable. Throughout the whole dis nee there was | bardly a place where a log cabin could | be placed, and where the surveyors had to project the line they were compel l«4 to erect a staging along the edge of the | rock to enable tuem to make their suv- ^ veys. 'le had come to the oonolusioa | that, j things considered, the Govern- ment had done everything that could be | done. However tbis might be, the Goluin- bian Government appeared to have been dissatisfied with the very reasonable propor sition made to them by the DominiOQ Government, through Mr. Kdgar. They rushed to Downing street, and the Home authorities made a certain arrangement, which in reality was a new start. This House, in its wisdom, when that arrange- ment was submitted to them, threw it out, and he took his own share of the re- sponsibility of this action. There were some gentlemen in the House, however, whose conduct on that occasion he con- ceived to be scarcely consistent with their 2)ast record, but no doubt it was perfectly consistent with their consciences. These gentlemen had declared, through an Order in Council of the Government of which they were members, that the load from Nanaimo to Bsquimalt should be part of the main line, yet when a propo- sition was laid before tbis House to con- struct that road they voted against it. An hon. gentleman ha4 spoken in a some- what mysterious manner about the proba- bility of Government influence being used with their supporters to vote down the pro- position . So far as he was concerned, if any influence was used or endeavourad to be used upon him upon that occasion it was in oruer to induce him to vote in the very opposite way in which he diiL A gentleman who professed to be, and he believed was, acting in behalf of the Gov- ernment, urged him to vote for the Bill. He was opposed to it, as were several other gentlemen, and although th«'' pressure to which he had referred was brought to bear and finally had the effect of making seme of those gentlemen vote with the Government — it had no eifect upon him. He had exercised, independently, his dis- position to serve the country without respect to party. He would be candid 45 verninent bad leir i>ower in n pbotographi the country osed the road as bound to of the most Imaginable, nee there was g cabin could Bui'vsyors had ere compelled | edge of the ake their sur- >he ooDolusion the Govern- bat could be be, the Golum- 1 to have been ksonable piopo- the Dominion ifidgar. They and the Home arrangement) ; >w start. This 1 that arrange- them, threw it bare of the re- i. There were l^oube, however, lasion he cod- itent with their X was perfectly iiences, These , through an Government of . that the toad alt should be i^hen a propo- Uouse to coa- ted against it. >ken in a aome- tout th« proba- nee being used > down the pro- i concerned, if ndeuvoured to at ocoBsion it to vote in the bich he did. 1 to be, and h« alf of the Gov- >te for tbe BilL e several other h^ pressure to rought to bear ict of making vote with the 3ct upon him. lently, his dis- intry withoiit ild be candid kough to say that the action of several •n. gentlemen in this House had done letbmg to strengthen his determina- 1. He referred to the occasion upon liich be saw certain hon. gentlemen from Itish Columbia standing up and voting Eiinst the Georgian Bay Branch. When saw them join upon that occasion with certain party, it occurred that they had \t their idols, and it would be better to kve them alone. It had been contended bome hon. gentlemen that tbe Govem- ent should have re-introduced this Bill. was not such a stickler for the rights id privileges of tbe Senate as some hon. Intlemen were, but to take the ^urse which had been suggest- he could scaroely conceive I be respectful to this House. It would iply be an attempt to force the House \ retract the vote it bad given last year. |ippose the Bill had been re-introduced, would not have voted for it any more Ian he did last year, and gentlemen on \6 other side would also be unlikely to I it. He admitted that British Colum- being a small Province was entitled I every consideration from hon. gentie- 9n representing the larger Provinces, lit he vas also bound to say that British plumbia was represented in both Houses I Parliament very greatly out of propor- Dn to its population. It seemed to him, i consequence, that the representatives that Provinoe should exercise some ^tle modesty when they deemed it pcessary to bring matters up for the con- leration of Parliament. With respect the correspondence between the lithorities of tbe Dominion and British Dlumbia, ho might say that he was not knerally disposed to be hypercritical pout the language used on tbe other but he could not help remarking kat the latter displayed a wonderful it of resources. It was surely an easy ^ing, if they considered Mr. Edgar had >t the proper credentials, to have con.- jnicatea with Ottawa and ascertained ■e facts. He might say the same with Igard to the Order in Council which had ^en the cause of so much agitation and so thoroughly misrepresented in itish Columbia. That interpretation never been contemplated by bis hon. lends on the Treasury Benches, but British Columbia members never |}k the trouble to ask what it really was. believed that the Bill last year was rows out upon a party vote, and his Uief was that his hon. friends from ritish Columbia were very anxious lihat their confreres from Ontario should have all the credit of pursuing a policy antag- onistic to that Bill, while through the aid of the Ministerial party they should have the advantage of the railway. He had come to the conclusion that if he could help it this should not be the case. The hon. gentleman concluded by stating that a great many engineering faults had been attributed to the Government, but his own impression was that every Adminis- tration was bound to take the aivioe of their chief engineer upon matters of this kind. Hon. Mr.MAOPHERSONsaid he would not have addreb^ed the House again but for an allusion which had been made to a remark of his by tbe hon. the Secre- tary ot State— that had a Bill come before this House askmg |750,000 as a sop to British. Columbia, he would have voted against it, just as he had voted against the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Bfulway, and for thd same reasons. He would, indeed, vote against everything he believed was intended to postpone the construction of our great Inter-Ooeanio Railway, which, he had no hesitation in saying, both these propositions had for their object. Now the arrangement proposed to British Columbia, as set forth m the Order in Council, clearly showed that the offer was meant to be a compensation for the postponement to an indefinite period of the construction of the main line of the Paoitio Hallway, and he defied any one who would read the papers to prove the contrary. With respect to the arrange- ment proposed by Lord Carnarvon, he held that the Colonial Secretary made a proposition which, with his means of ir formatioo, he was justified in tbinkinij would be accejptable to the people and Parliament of this country. It was merely so much nonsense to speak of Dooming Street dictation in this relation, as an hon. gentleman had done, or to say that the amended termi' were made by the Home authorities. No such thing. The terms wore proposed by the Govern- ment of Canada to British Columbia, through Mr. Edgar, and the Colonial Secretary, surely, was justified in believing that no Cabinet would make a suggestion on ths subject r/hich they did not know to be acceptable to the people of Cansula and their representatives. But this Gov- ernment had no reason to suppose that Farliaixient would consent to the postpone- ment of the Pacific Railway, there was no such desire or intention prevailing in the country, and under the circumstances 4(; ■i«i' they did what was quite unjustifiable Trben they led the Home authorities to believe that any arrangement which would liave that effect would be assented to here. It was futile for hon.g(^ntlemen on the Treasury Benches to shield themselves behind the excuse that this arrangement «marated from Downing Street, and had therefore to be assented to. As he bad already said, Downing Street simply aided the Canadian Qov- ernment in accomplishiDg an arrange- ment which the latter had represented would be acceptable to the people of Canada. The vote of the Senate last ses- sion rnjccting the Eaquimalt and Nan- aimo Ilailway Bill was a just and patriotic vote, and had the approval of the coun- try, for the all-powerful reason that the people would not consent to postponing indefinitely the constraction of the Faciiio Bailway. If the Government had frankly informed Parliament that they had been engagf d earnestly in surveying the coun- try, that notwithstanding so much money had been spent for that purpose yet no satisfactory route had been found,he would have been ready to say that they did what was quite rigbt. lie was prej^ared to support tbem in making a thorough survey of the country before the work was proceeded with, but such was not the explanation they submitted. They came down last year with a scheme for the construction of a railway from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, which waa neither more nor less than a co^'sid- eraticn offered to British Columbia for the abandonment of the main Pacific liailway, and this year, with the same end in view, they made offer to the authoi • ities oftbat Province of a grant of $750,- 000 . If, instead of having been promptly and emphatically refused by British Col- umbia, astnat oticr was, it had been sub- mitted to the consideration of this House, he had not the slightest doubt it aliso would be thrown out. He (Mr. Mac- pherson) was infiueiiced in the course he was pursuing by no party considerations in the sense in which partizanship was generally understood. He denied that such existed to any extent in this House. There were no great i)olitical issues before the country just now. The question which really concerned the country was one of administration, the capacity or in- capacity of the present Government to adminbter the public affairs of Canada. Upon that subject he had a very decided opinion, for he thought it had been amply demonstrated by their 2)arty negotiatiopf with British Columbia, and their disturb- mg but weak administration gen- erally, that they were not the men to lead this country to the de- velopment of her great resources which we had the right to look forward to i in the near future. Ihey had been spending large sums of money uselessly, not only in this country, but also ui Europe ; these nominally to promote emigration, while their whole policy had tbe effect of (liscomaging it. There was no room to doubt tnat this continual <| wrangling and disputation with British Columbia hud had the very worst effect U(iou the tide of immigration, tending as it did to create distrust and weaken con- '] fidence in the good faith of the country. These things were well known on the other side of the Atlantic, and very widely discussed. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JUST— i By the emigrants ? Hon. Mr. M ACPHEBSON;»aid— Yea, by : the emigrants, who were not so ignorant as the hon. gentleman seemed to think. He thought this sneer came with bad grace from tbe Minister of Agriculture, the head of the Immigration Department. These people believed that Canada, or at least tbe Government of Canada for the time being, had abandoned the Paoiho rail- way, and thus made impossible the large demand for the labour of emigrants which would otberwiportuuity bad not yet been communicated. If the explanations of lion. gentlemen on the Treasury Benches ; bad only been taken down verbatim, and : so read now to the House, it would be iirpossible to conceive of a jumble more inconsistent and contradictory that they | would present. He diti'ered with the i Government entirely upon this railway question, it was not a British Colum- bian question, either solely oi chiefly, but a Doimnion question. Ihe Secretary of State got u]> in his place, and informed the House of how liberally the GJvern- ment had treated British Columbia, and of 'I how anxious tbey were that the people of a I Db ST. JUST- tha*. Province sbould be satisfied and con- tent. It was rot for the sole intflrest ofBrit ish Columbia that the Pacific Railway was Erojected, but that the Dominion might ave a great Inter-Oceanic highway of her own. He differed with the Gov- ernment, because t^iey took a narrow, contracted view of the question, and he warned them, even had British Columbia declared herself ready to accept the sop nhich was held out to her as con:.pensa- tion for the Railway, the gi-eat body of the people of this country would not have been satisfied, but on tbe contrary pro foundly dissatisfied and indignant. Of course British Columbia had grave cause to com^jlain on account of the delay in carrying out the agreement with her, es- pecially in view of the haste displayed by the Qovernment in placing under contract tbe Georgian Bay Branch. Ministers regarded a complete survey as of prime necessity in British Columbia -and in tJjis he agreed with them— but why do they not pursue the same policy with reference to the Georgian Bay Branch Railway? They had actually entered in^o contract for the construction of that roud, not only without a survey, and where it would be utterly useless, but where it was impossible to build it, except at enormous cost. The first tweaty-six miles from the mouth of the French River eastward was a baro rock — naked eranite — upon which even the most stunted weed would not grow. Why was it not as ne- cessary to survey this line as thoroughly as that in British Columbia, before putting it under contract? And, moreover, it was not a part of the main line. There was a treaty with British Columbia to build the railway, which might have aocounl«d for, if it would not have excused, some undue haste ou the part of the Ministers, had they incurred some risk in proceeding vrith the work in that Province, but there was no treaty affecting the Oeorgian Bay Branch. No treaty ; no trade, and no pait of British Columbia could possibly be less fertile or less populated than the country through which the Georgian Bay Branch would pass, if built, and yet, in the lattei case, a contract for its construction had been entered into before the line harl been surveyed — a contract, by the way, which the very facta he recited had since com- pelled the Government to cancel. And now they talked about making tbe ter minus twenty-six miles up the French River, and building a look to make that river navigable to the Georgian Bay. Did the Governmest actually believe that propellers from the lakes would be diverted from their course to go even into the mouth of French River, not to speak of twenty-six miles inland? Surely not. It htd been charged that this was being made a party question in this House. He denied that he and his friends regarded it from a party point of view in the sense in which that was gener- ally understood. But the difficulty with British Columbia had arisen out of a party question — or more i)roperly npeak- ing out of party defection on the Minis- terial side— a party mutiny he might call it. It was a very serious defection, for it was led by a great captain, a mem- ber of the other house, whose influence extended to this House, and caused the defeat of the Nanaimo and Esquimalt Railway Bill last session. The Hon. Sec- retary of State had appealed to the House, and especially to the members of the late Government— wi Pacific sea board, to be fixed by the' Governor in Council, througb British territory to eastern Canada, to hei built as a federal work by the Do- i minion. (Hear, hear.) The telegrams fiom British Columbia at that time de- clared that "no real union could exists without speedy communication," and" they must have all seen that the unica without such a reasonable and proper' communication would be neither desir- able nor proper. (Hear, hear.) The tre< < <^ .3 entered into between British Co'. A and Canada in 1870, to which the Imperial Gh)vemment was ap arty, and loaned the Dominion £2,500,000 in aid of uniting and welding together all the British North .^erican Provinces from sea to sea. The term, ten years, fixed to complete the raUway, was understood simply as a guarantee that the Govern- ment were in earnest and determined that the road should be completed as speedily as possible, but not to advance the work faster than our resources wonld admit or the engineering difficulties could be overcome. It was well known that the railway was to be constructed through a terra incognita, and that it would have been the extreme of madness and ruin to all parties to determine on any potitive time for its oomplotion. (Hear, hear.) He would in- w^ 50 •if ^ vite the attention of the House to' a •hort extrce of insuperable obstacles or jeopardize or endanger the resources of the country. It must be remembered that the people of British Columbia will stand in preclaely the same position as we ourselves ; their representatives will be here and in the other branch equally mterestec in the prosperity and economi- cal administration of public affairs. We mention the time of ten years as a guar- antee that we were in earnest and the in- tention has always been the same, the construction of the road by private* enter- prise and such aid as vre could give with- out injuriously burthening the resources of Canada. The present Government could not say that their predecessors made the tea yeai-a limit imperative. He felt quite confident that no hon. gen- tleman on either side of the House would dissent from that part of the motion of hii hon. friend from Amherst which would bare them affirm that this House fully recognised the obligations of the Dominion to secure the construction oi the Canada Pacifio Railway with the ut- most speed compatible with a due regard to tbo other financial requirements of the Dominion, and without unduly increasing the rate of taxation . The Government of Sir John Maodonold should be commend- ed for the resolution they passed in 1871, shortly after the terms of union were •greed upon. It was in effect that the PAoific Railway should be constructed and worked by a company subsidized by liberal grants of land, money, or other aid not increasing the existing rate of taxa- tion . By this resolve Canada had been saved from any exorbita^l^ or ruinous de- mand, should British Colilmbia ever desire to have the railway pushed forward to the isjary of the Dominion, of which she was t6 form a part. Hon. gentlemen were all.atvare of the favourable contract that had been entered into by Sir Hugh Allan, b)r which we were pledged to the extent of $30,000,000 in money, and it could not be gainsaid that Sir John honestly endea- voured by every moanr< to carry out the project. It waa now a matter of history the manner in which that contract failed. All political parties were lK>und to the completion of the rail vay, yet it was a notorious fact thtt the preser :- Qovem- ment rode into power by scheming and intriguing to crush that great underlakingi and it uame with bad grace from the Hon. Secretary of State the other day, when he said the present O^jposition put party first and country afterwards. He would now endeavour to show the ruinous policy, the inconsistency and incapacity of the Government in grappling with this work,the completion of which was so eNsen- tial to our existence as a Dominion and our growth as a happy and prosperous people. In the Minute of Council of the .30th of March, the Oovernraeni referred to the terms of union with British Columbia as " those ruinous terms," and it would be remembered that the contract for the building of tbe railway was based on those terms yet the Minister of Agri- culture the other day, in addressing this honourable body, stated that the land scheme d not offer suffioiont induce- ments, V 't was well known that this Governn t only defeated the sclieme but unuc. ^oK, as a Government, U> build the railway as a Government work, increasing therefor the taxation of the country some three millions, of dollars, and also passed an Act to add forty mil- lions of dollars to the i>uhUo debt ; and in addition agreeing to build a local rail- way on Vancouver'* Island, to cost this country some unknown number of mil- lions of dollars more, and complete th« Pacific Railway iit fourteen years. Yet they would now tull the House that th* railway was to be built on the express condition that the taxation of the coun- try should not be increoMd. (Hear, hear.) Eon. gentlemen would agree with him xhz.v tuc Government were only liound when they took office to prosecute the construction of the Faoifio Railway with vigour and speed consistent with the difficulties to be encountered, and they were not bound to have the railway completed in ten years ; yet they found the Government insidiously endeavouring to make the country believe that the road could not be built, while, as he IukI shown, they had added immensely to the burthens of our debts and the taxation of the country. What further did tbe re- ports and papers before the House show ? They had first a letter from the Prime Minister to Mr. IDdgar, dated 19th Febru- ary, 1874, instructing him to pr06oed to British Columbia and let tbe people of Vancouver's Island understand that the Government were not bound to build the railway on that Island, and further to seek to obtain by any and all means any Kl meaoB any Urms. Then wn have Mr. Edgar's lotter addressed to the Attorney Qeneral of British Columbia, dated the 8th of May following, in wLioh he rifrered, on behalf of this Governuient, to instantly build a local railroad on the Island which would cost about five millions of dollars, and in addition to spend |1,5CX),U00 every year in British Columbia on the Pacific Bail vray, i^so to construct a telegra^th and waggon road, provided that British Col- umbia did not hold them to the ten years limit. The following was one of the olauses m that letter:— 'The 11th ar- ticle of the terms of union nmbodies the bold proposition that the railway shall be commenced in two and completed in ten years from the dale of union, to connect the sea board of British i i umbia with the railway system of Cai .da. Feeling the impossibility of complying with this time limit for completion, the Qovem- ment are prepared to make now stipu- lations and enter into additional obliga- tions of a definite character for the benefit pf the Province. They propose to com- mence the uonstruction of the road from Esquimalt to Ntn- pjni immediatedly, and to push that portion of the Railway on to QOmpletidn with the utmost vigour, and in the shortest practicable time." The British Columbia Qovernmont declined to consider th's offer unless the Agent show- ed his official authority to contract for the Pominion. What was the next devious course of tho Qovernment? Inptead of KOEtking from this Parliament Bu);>por''. and advice, they found the Ministry referring ito whole matter to the arbitration of Lord Carnarvon, who, on the 17tli Novem- ber, 1874, awarded that thu Railway from i^quimalt io Nanaimo should be com- menced as soon as possible and completed with all practicable despatch} that a waggon road and telegraph line should be inunediately oonsti'ucted ; that two mil- lion dollars a year should be tue minimum e^benditure on tho Pacific Railway with- in British Columbia, and, lastly, that on or before the Slst December, 1890, the Bailway should be completed and open for traffic from the Pacific seaboard to a point at the western end of Lake Su- perior. And now, to crown all, what did the country find? That this Government, on the 8th of December, 1874, by Minute of Council, approved of the award, and it would suffice to read the two clauses : " The conclusion at which Hia Lordship has arrived, upholds, as he remai-ks, in ^6 maiUi and suiajeot only to some modi- fications of detail, the policy dictated by the Government on this r ost embarrassing question, rhe Ccmmittt 9 of the Couuou respectfully request that ,'ourExcellffnoy would be pleased to conv >y to Lonl Car- narvon their warm appre nation of the kindness which led His Lo. i^ip to ren- der his good offices to efieot a settlement of the matter in dispute, and also to assure Ilis Lordship that every effi>rt wiU. be made to secure the realization of what id expected." Comment on this would be unnecessary. If ever any set of men attempted to hurl a country into bank- rupi -.yand ruin, this Qovernment, by this transaction, did it; and, but for the action of tho Senate last session, this Dominion would have been irrevocably bound to con- struct the Pacific Railway in fifteen years, no matter what difficulties, physical or otherwise, might stand in the way. They would have to construct the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway immediately at a cost of nobody knew how much, but say 15,000,000, which the Government in th« Minute of Council of September, 1875, declared did not form a portion of the Pacific Railway, but was essentially a local work. They were also to construct a waggon road and telegraph line, besides expanding not less than two millions of dollars every year on the Pacific Railway in British Columbia. How could the Gov ernment now dare to hedge themcelvea under the the plea of no additional taxtion? As he had said before they had daved the country in thia Senate from untold burthen and enormous taxation. It wa* too late now for this Government to hedge themselves by declaring that they were controlled by tho terms of the reso- lution of 1871. He had already shown that they by their action had ignored that resolution by offering new terms to British Columbia, imposed additional obligations, and increased taxation in the Dominion. The preamble to the Pacific Railway Act of 1874 declared that this Government had increased our taxation three millions of dollars to make provision for the con- structing of the Pacific Railway as rapidly as possible, and the Act passed the same year authorized a loan of forty millions of dollars, and recited the terms of union a» its chief reason for borrowing that money. Thic money was borrowed on the Imperial guarantee, and was obtained exclusively for the Pacific Bailway. Even that money had been diverted from the objects for which it was intended, and devoted partly to paying Dominion debts au4 building canals, and a large quantity wa» imy 52 m' squandered in the steel rails job. (Hear, hear). He felt free to state that he did not coasider the Government were very SDxiouB that their Bill to construct the local railway from Esquimalt to Nanaimo should pass the Senate last year. Hon. gentlemen well knew the action of the Government supporters in this House on that Bill, and could form their own con- clusions. It was evident that the great Aurora speech bad something to do with the matter. The action of the Government, on the other band, showed not only political incapacity and want of security, but a blunder of a kind of which sane men would scarcely be guilty, and he felt that the members of the Goremment in this House ought to join at leatu in that part of the resolution of his hen. friend from Amherst which expressed regret that the course adopted by the Government in connection with this matter had not met the expectations of the people of British Columbia. They now came to the last part of the resolu tion, which was "that the course adopted by the Governa. int in connection with this matter bad not been such as to facil- itate the development of the Northwest." Although it was ess«ntial that British Columbia should have this railway, and tho faith of the Dominion was pledged to its construction in a reasonabN time, yet it ought not to be looked at in ' sc»>ional way, but as essentiai to the d''velopment and consolidation of the Dominion. Therefore, from a Canadian point of view, it would be admitted that the Govern- ment had not paid that attention to push- ing on the railway from Manitoba to the Northwest that its importance deserved, and it was a wonder that the settlers in that region continued to quietly suffer so long. It was our great Held for immigra- tion and p'. pulation, and from which the Dominion jxpectea to derive the first fruits of the railway ronstruction. It cou'd not be questioned, if the Govern- ment bad proper confidence in themselves to boner tly commence the work and realize the vast importance of the whole Dominion, the early settlement of the Red Giver and the great prairie country, and pursue a cautious, and yet a vigorous and determined policy; to grapplo '.rith the dltficulties that con- fronted them instead of wasting all their energies in attempting to subsidise branch railways and to buy out British Columbia ; they would not now be com- pelled in justice to the Northwest to declare tbia censure on the Government. There was yet one act of the Government which could not be passed over in silence, it was the bribe of r 750,000 lately oflered to British Columbia in compensation for the indefinite postponement, not of th« Vancouver Island Railway, but of the Pacific Railway. These were the wor Js of the Minute in Council of September last : "That the compbnsation given then by Canada for any delays which miy take place in the construction of the Pacific Railway." It was now they could look with feelings of pride to the large hearied patriotism of British Columbia, who spurned 'his bribe, and who could not be purchased with money to the amount of three quarters of a million of dollars, but in their reply they said that " disappoint- ment, discouragement, and distress had taken possession of them by reason of the repeated violations by the Government of Canada of their engagements." Here were the words of the British Columbia representatives of the people, thrrigh their Speaker, to Her Gracious Majesty, on the 29th of November last : — " A feel- ing of distrust has taken the place of the confident anticipations of commercial and political advantages to be derived from the speedy construction of the railway which should practically unita the Atlantic and Pacific shores of Your Majesty's Dominion on the continent of North America." These ^orethe words of the people, bunung with patriotism, who sought to maintain their connection with us nnd tliair treaty obligations, who said to us, as far as tho A tlantic shores : — "We wish lo be one with you in all the relations and advantages which the coun- try possess ; we wish to preserve our Brit- ish connection here, ami reap our share of the happiness and })rosperity of that con- nection, and, if needs bo, to share in the defence of the integrity of the country." He regarded the Government policy of utilising the water stretchflri as n scheme that could not be successful, ia- the route would be long and tedious, and even as a temporary policy must occaiion a large expenditure of money to make connec- tions with navigable waters or roads, whicli must ultimately be useless after the construction of a continuous rail route. Besides this, no posjible way had been shown as to how the water sections could be used in winter — nearly six months in the year. The hon. member for Hopewell had pointed to the Ameri- can Pacific Kiiilway as a precaution to us, and sta^^^ that it went through a settled country, and it had other great ad van §1 53 overnment pin silence, iely oflered asation for not of the but cf the le worJs af :iuber last : a then by 1 miy take the Facifio could look ge hear led obia, who mid act be amount of dollars, but diaappoint- is tress had tasoD of the ernraent of ts." Here Columbia le, thrr-igh us Majesty, ~"A feel- lace of the mercial and irived from of the cally unite 88 of Your bntineut of J the words patriotism^ connection [ations, who shores : — u in all the 1 the ooun- '6 our Brit- )ur share of that con- lare in the e country." t policy of >9 a scheme the route even as a an u large ike connec- or roads, leless after nuous rail te way had ;er seotioos learly six member the Ameri- iition to U8, ;ha settled cat advan 3 tages. His belief was that that railway ran through a country which, for soil and climate, could not favourably compare with the line w lich we could construct, and that the engineering di'dSculties nhat the U P. Railway had to overcome were infinitely greater than ours ; yet that road had been a "nccess. '-Settlements had been made, towns had sprung up along the route. As an instance of the benefi oial effect of the construction of the railway,ChicH';a had doubled its population since the raiiwuy had been built. The country through which it passed was nothing to compare with our great West, and wli^a we reached Victoria wo would be a thousand miles nearer to China HGd Japan than the people of San Fran- cisco, tic bad endeavoured in his poor way to mako it plain that this country was never absolutely pledged to build the Facifio Hallway within ten years ; that the country only expected the Govern- ment ehotild do everything that was rea- sonable and in their power to perform their engagements with British Columbia ; that the present Govemmer.t bad never shown any faith in themselves, nor had they endeavoured to inspire the people of British Columbia with confidence that the Ministry were sincere and earnest in their work, but on the contrary, by every means in their power contrived to induce British Columbia to release them from their responsibility, and had wasted money on works in the name of the Paci- fic Railway that had nothing to do with it ; that instead of diligently carrying on the explorations to determine on some objective points at which ♦ commence the work they had sought t-j x upon the Dominion greater obligal^ >'i than had been bequeathed to thi?' , md now en- deavoured to make the ^ouiitry believe it was all owing to the faults and follies of tbetr predecessors. Hon. Mr. WILMOT stated that he only wished he could believe all that liis faon. friend from Nova Scotia had said. He thought that it would be very unwif/e tc pasd aiiy resolution in connection with this matter. On (he Statute Book was a law by which the faith of the Dominion was pledged to build this railway, and it was on all sides agreed that thiu ahould be done without inc>-?c5ing taxa- tion, but no one could think that such a culmination was within the boui\d8 of possibility. He could not vote for any of the resolutions which had beer, aub- icilted to the Hoi":o, and a large number of the repraseutati^esiu the other bi::ncli of the legislature, who were directly res- ponsibla to the tax-payers, bad decided to maKe use of the navigable waters with reference tctthis great work. Undoubt- edly we haa a great territory in the North-west and had expended large sums L) induce immigrants to settle in it, and now we were called upon to pay large ■iuta» of money to support them. If that country was worth anything at all it had agricultural resources, but if it could not provide food build the line by means of a companv ; one was organised, but it failed to raise a loan for the purpose. In the meantime, explor- ers tad been 3ent out to locate the route. Then another event occurred ; the Gov- e'nment, of which his hon. friend from Kingston was a membt r, in order to oon- oiliate the irritated spirit of British Columbia, and a« a sort of eqiiivalent for the delays that had taken place, passed an order in Council providing for the construction of the Nanaiao and Esqui- mau Kailway. Seven montLs, in addition to the two years, during which time the railway was to have been com- menced, had expired, when the change of Qovernment to^k place. The present Administration con- sidered that under thi ciicumstanoes it was necessary to adopt a line of con- duct which would not involve useless ex- penditure, while, on the other hand, they felt that it was their duty to provide th© most easy means of communication with the North-West Territory, in order to pro- mote its settlement, and this object Was p,lways kept in view, and every one knew how desirable this was. At the general election which followed the accvssion of the Premier to power, the latter aD-iounc- ed that the water-stretches would be utilised in connection with this project. He asked the House whettier the policy inaugurated by the present Administra- tion wasi not wise and advantageous and less costly than that of the late Govern- ment? At present certain hon. gentle- men seemed to wish to ridicule it, and to imply that those who did so had not at heart the well beiag of the coun- try, and the due observance of economy in the administration of public affairs. One would im igine, from tne expressions of its representative.s, that the Province of Manitoba had been bad'y treated in this connection, but he believed that if any part of the country had been gener- ously tre ited it was this very Province, and the Government desorvod more con- sideration from its representatives. An- other matter should also be considered by these hon. gentlemen — ttie agreement to construct the railway from Pembina to Fort Garry, providing nev means of en- tering the North-West Territory. What right, therefore, had they to complain ? They reDroach- d the Government with takinjf advantage of foreign lines to semi emig''ants into that country ; but how did the Administration endeavour to preve.it th« Americans ob- taining the settlers, was it not, to the ad- vantage of that I'lovince ? Those who chose to shut their eyes to these facts mi.'ht do so, but he regretted his hon> triends from Manitoba bail taken su'^h • position. The tirtt step taken to open a line of communication ^'ith the Pacific bad been most favourable to that Pro- vince, and next vea>< all the means to reach it would be provide I. It might b0 said that this louie could only be used during the seas )n of naviuation, but at what other tim^^ could emitrrants reach that country, leaving here as tbov gen- erally did between the eu^da for the sole benefit of British Columbia ? We should h nostly fulfil our engagements with that Province, but in seeking to do so, we should not so affect our credit as to render that fulfilment impossible. Unut to day he held that it was his duty to aerisc in observing the solemn engagement existing between the Domin- ion and the Province of British Columbia. It was not intended that this House should pass votes of want of confidence on administrationo ; and when, as might happen, the politioal complexion of th» mi\jority might be reversed, and the Cab- inet leing changed, the majority of that body 2)laced in opposition, they might follow the bad example which might now be bet them. The present majority should be careful as to the attitude the/ as- sumed. H«9 could not refrain from be- lieving that to party spirit was due the resolutions under consideration, and he ho;ied that xbe motions would be with- drawn, ho^. gentlemen having been fur- nished with an opportunity for expressing their opinions in this regard, if the mo- tion was carried, it would imply a vote of want of confidence, and its result would be to embarrass the Government. Hon. Mr.GIliARD, &i the Minister of Agriculture alluded to his expressions of opinion, requested the indulgence of the House, in order to give him the opp 'r« tunity of making a reply. The hon- gen- tleman dwelt upon favours extended to the Provmoe of Manitoba, but he would remind the hon. gentleman that he repre- presented, not only that Province, but also the Dominion. It was conse-^ 6t quently his duty to take the general in- terests of the country into consideration. Despite what the hon. gentleman might ■ay, he was not influenced by paHy feel- ing in taking the position he dii. He always regretted to express views in op- position to the policy of the Government; but nevertheless he was in duty bound, as well as others, to make known his opinions to the Admmistration, in order that occasion might be given for reform- ing an improper policy, or rendering more justice to the country. He bad stated the other day, and he did not then hesitate to repeat that the policy of the Ministry, wi h reference to the construe* tion of the Pacific Railway, was tortuous, expensive, and unwise. Their first step had been to resolve to utUise the water stretches, but the result would be that the money spent in this relation might as well be thrown into ihe sea. 'Die country required a direct line from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean, extending our commerce, and giving us access to the riches of the East. When the Qovernment had been requested to locate the route so as to pass dose to Fort Garry and to the south of Lake Manitoba, what was the reply given to the various delegates ? " You have no right to it ; this is not your road but the railway of the Dominion." Hon. Mr. J.,ET£IJJEB Dh St JUST— Hear, hear. Hon, Mr. GIRA.BD— The hon. gentle- man exclaimed "hear, hear," but in this he heartily agreed with the Ministry— the road was not for Manitoba but for the Dominion, in virtue of the resolution adopted in the year 1871. If a change had not taken place in the Cabinet, a portion o; the line at the present time would undoubtedly have been built, and the route at least surveyed throughout. A resolution in existence stated that it should be built without renderini; any increase of taxation necessary, and what had in reality given umbrage to the Eeople of British Columbia had been the esitation shown by the Government to give them justice. The Administration, when Miey determined upon the construc- tion of the Nanaimo and Esquimalt Railway, adopted an unsound policy, and when the Bill was rejected a great ser- vice was done the country. The inten- tion of the Ministry, as far as he could see, bad been, had that Bill passed, to postpone for a long time the construction of this railway. They did not wish to in- Tolve the country in enormous liabilities, i He regretted the position in which he found himself; and he protested strongly against the insinuations thrown out from time to time to the offect that he and others, members of that body^ were inspired by political motives. He, for his part, could not see how party spirit could exist in this Chamber. He would give bis opinions frankly. He conceived that it was his duty to follow the policy of the Government with the greatest interest ; aud he would have much rather preferred to have felicitated than condemned— as he was obliged to do— the course taken in this relation by the Administration. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the hon. gentleman (Mr. Letellier) had stated that Sir John Macdonald had said in the other House that after voting for the Esqui- mault and Nanaimo Bill, he advised his friends in the Senate to vote against it. He (Mr. Campbell) had written to the hon. memoer for Cumberland, asking him if such was the case, and his reply was : — " No, what I said was, ' as the Govern- ment had voted down my resolution re- quiring them to submit contracts to this House, I said that if Sir John and I voted against the third reading, and our friends in the Senate voted against the Bill, there would be nothing inconsistent in it.' " Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JUST said he had not stated positively that the hon. gentleman had said that he had asked his friends in this House to vote against the Bill, but he had sug- gested it. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the denial was oomjilete on that point, Hon. Mr. CARRALb—ro whom did he make that suggestion ? Not to me. Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db Sr. JUST said, in reply to Mr. Blake, the hon. gentleman had stated that he had sug- gested to his friends in the Senate to vote against the Bill. Hon. Mr. PRICE laid he understood Mr. Blake had asked his own friends to do the same thing. Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND, after re- viewing some historical points in connec- tion with the entry of the North-West into the Ck>nfederation, said that if Canada had not been so hasty in taking hold of the Province the people would have had it in their own hands to-day, without it costing the country a single cent. The Hudson Bay Company and their officials had begun to find out, previous to the transfer, that it was impossible to govern the territory. The Governor told him so .^8 11 1%. i i himself frequently, and thoy would have had to give it up. It vras a sore qivsstion with the people of Manitaba, and with many other people ; he believed it would have been better to leave it to oblivion. The settlers were also very much dissatisfied with the land policy of the Government; it was not that the policy was not good erough in itself but it had not been cairied out. He had always been of the opinion that the building of the railway had been a mistake ; the Thunder Bay Branch could not be utilized as a portion of the main line without making a detour of some sixty miles. He feared that the Govern- ment had over-estimated the advantages of the water-stretches, as when the Pem- bina Branch was constructed it would take the business, and the other railway would be closed five or six months out of the year. Then the line from Eat Por- tage had been run to the north east corner of the Prcvince the most worthless part of it, and the immigrants coming to Win- nipeg by that route would have to travel twenty 4hree miles up Red River to get to Winnipeg, and none of the lands in that section of the Province would be located until all the lands in the Sas- katchewan were taken up. Hon. Mr. PRICE called attention to the remark of the Minister of Agriculture that the Opposition themselves in that House were actuated by a party, factious spirit, although the m(^mbers were not responsible to the people. He disclaimed all such motives on his part, and said he felt that he was there in the position of a judge and not as a party man. He was one of those who had supported the Pacific scheme of the late Government and if it had been carried out as proposed by them, they would now have had a railway built half way to British Columbia, The present Government should have adopted that policy instead of spending the money in t iking a gen^ tleman out of thia House to give him a job. Hon. gentlemen— Ob, Ob, Oh I Moo. Mr. PRICE— Yes, a job ; a man who was the prin( ipal cause of the fall of the late Go>''^ri'>rjient, and they gave him tiiis contract as a bribe. Hon. gentlemen— Oh, Oh ! Hon. Mr. PRICE said— He would state it again ; if it bad not been for that man, and the jealousies of a rival railway, the Pacific Road would have been now built half way to the Rocky Mountains. He waa satisfied that the explorations that were now being made were more with a view to defeat the railway than anything Hon.Mr. FABRE— I regret that the movers of the motion and amendment submitted to our consideration have not followed the good example given them by my hon. friend from La Yalliere, and withdrawn tbem. It seems to me that any useful purpose or legitimate object they might have in view has been ob- tained, as full opportunity has been afford- ed to the representatives of British Columbia in this House to lay before the Senate and the country the views enter- tained in their own Province on the policy of the Government in relation to the Pa- cific Railway. The case has been ably and fully laid before us. We now ignore nothing that we ought to know on the subject. We first heard our hon- ourable colleague for Cariboo (Hon. Mr. Carrall). He spoke with suoh earnestness and conviction that he must have made an impression even on the minds of those who are very far from en- tertaining the same views as himself. He went so far as to deny to himself the plea- sure of making, and to deprive us ot the pleasure of hearing, some of these witty remarks of which he is so ^ond, and for the first time since i have aad the honour of occu2)yiug a seat in this Hnuse, I saw him looking as grave as a Senator. He has been ably supported by his two colleagues from British Columbia, and the question has been fully ventilated. But if the hon. gentlemen are decided to force a vote upon us on this question, I beg to tell them, respectfully but frankly, that I think they arc wrong. Columbia has no- thing to gain by following that course, »Mid it seems to me that the Senate has some- thing to lose by it. I may be wrong, and in this case the more ex^jerienced and wiser men I see around me will pardon me ; but I conceive that it is not the part assigned by the spirit, if not by the lettar, of the constitution to this honourable body, to throw itself into the pohtical arena with the ai-dour of youth, and the hasty spirit that animates the popular branch, and to try to wrest the poWer from those who have received it from the hands of the people, and to thwart the policy which has obtained the support of the other House. Our duty, our part, I hiiiubly submit, is not to vote non-confi- dence in the Government, to defeat it on its general poUcy ; but to control legisla- tion, and ccvrect measures as they come before UB. We must avoid oominn into ooa< 5p flict with the other House oa what must I eeem to every one its special privilege. Now, honourable gentlemen, let us ask our- ] selve.y what will be the consequence if we adopt the Hon. Mr. Carrall'a resolution as amended by the Hon. Mr. Dickey ? Whv ? it will place us in direct opposition to the House of Commons, whose senti- ment appeared clearly enough when the same question was discussed the other day in that House, we know with what result ; and I am very much mistaken if it is to the course proposed to us that the country would give its sanction. The prevailing sentiment in the other House, and certainly in my own Province, is just now that it would have been better if, after the fall of the conservative minis- try, the idea of constructing the racifio had been at once abandoned. Hon. Mr. OARRALL—I contest that. Hon. Mr. FABRE— I claim that I must know a little more about my own Province than a member faom British Columbia. I repeat that the Liberal government would liave found more favour among its friends, and more favour among the people, if it had on all subjects adopted a more radical po- licy, broken at once and decidedly with the engagements and line of policy of its pre- decessor. Certainly, a great number of us felt disappointed when we heard the Ministry announce that in so many things they would adhere to the policy of the Conservative Ministry. In relation to the Pacific Railway specially, we would have wished that the Government would have taken a more decided attitude, and told at once to British Columbia that, though very desirous of keeping her in the bonds of Confederation, we could not afford to keep her at the cost of con- structing the Pacific Railway. Hon. Mr. MACPFERSON— Is that the opinion of your preBe»^t Loader, the lion. President ct the C*^' ocil ? Hon. Mr. Fi" .j5— I express my own opinions, not tLose of others. But, hon. gen- tlemen, if this radical course has not been followed, is it for tlL^e members of the Con- servative party, is ti for T>riti8b Columbia to complain 7 If a mdder course bas been adopted ; if since two yeais with a zeal and a patience, before threats, that everyone ought to admire, the Govern- ment has tried its utmost to conciliate the interest of Columbia with that of the oountiy at large, baa applied itself to find a proper solution to tho difficulty, and has succeeded so far as to obtain from a large number of mtmbers of the Liberal party, who do not believe in the scheme, their support for measures which you call insufficient, but which to many of us appear very hard to concede, I say, ought you not at least to accord the Gov- ernmentjustice for manly and loyal efforts? Certainly, if we take into oonsideraticn the relative state of opinion in the Liberal and in the Conservative party, it is but justice to say that the present Govera- ment has shown as much sympathy for Bi itish Columbia as its predecessors. It has worked hard in her favour against tlie current of i>ublic opinion, which would have gladly seen the whole Pacific sohema carried away in the Allan scandal, and in the downfall of the Macdonald Govaro- ment. Please recall to your memory the events and sentiments of two years ago, and see if, at that time, the repudiation of all obligations towards British Columbia would not have been met with a nearly universal approval ? The Conservative party was too weak then to be oi cny use to British Columbia. It had by its bad management, by its corrupt bargain wU^ Sir Ilugh Allan's agent rendered her cause unpopular ; her case hopeless. If British Columbia had not been thea assisted by the men in power, by the leaders of the Liberal party in pow^r, it would to-day be out of Confederation, if her threats are sincere ; or deprived of any hojpe of ever having anything to alle- viate the sorrow she seemed to have felt in t^e trying hour she decided to join us. With due regard to the majority of tbiii House, it appears to me that this great question has been approached with more rashness than fairness. I fail to find in uiany of the declarations I have heard that wisdom, prudence, and foresight which ought to characterize all the uttwr- ances of a body of men of so large an experience and so high a character. I have had to listen with amaze* ment to some of the speeches made in this House. Why, some of ue speak of this gigantic scheme au if it wts a matter of course the easiest thing in the world, a kind of a branch railway between two not distant points. Are they really serious, or simply applying for suppOBt from British Columbia in the present very great need of the Conservative party } If th'y really felt as much interest for British Columbia as t ley pretend, they would not treat such a subject so UghUy, with BO little regard for obstacles, thfti must appear to every reflecting miftd frightful, tremendous}. The facst is thdt to carry the gigantic work through, moat take yeais and years) it is only with sea «0 m 51 fit great caution that we can proceed in the interest of the enterprise ittelf, because any giave mistake would be a death-blow to the scheme. If ever, by the fault of a scheme so distasteful to many, the coun- try falls into embarraB!>ment,— as would be inevitably the case if the Government followed the advice given th( m by some of the speakers,- it will be done with the whole tbin^, and British Columbia will have to mourn the irreparable loss of the enterprise. The leaders of the Conserv- ative party felt this when they had the responsibility of ofHce. We have been informed, by the best authorities, that it was never thought of to adhere to the term of ten years fixed for the completion of the work. It wbs only put there to defy public opinion, I suppose, and to show that nothing was beyond the reach of our statesmen. It was a &raoame. loaohnhad misfortuae 1. Minister red to im- pissing of talent to a ', and tbat brought be- gentlemaa he signific- t, he would ^y a seat oa ly votes ad- 1 had b<4eQ en the other lasure of the ingtheGov i th^ same of the Got y when it difficulties uent. They measures of fits without » their vote ■ation. The ibis House I icy of the ' the PiiOiEo le approval they codld olioy of the ment them- had heard e that they le scheme, posei^them- le Oeorgian St. just Branch had ct with Mr. as he had iuebeo were >rgiaa Bay was not the Iway system nd DOW he ontract had allowed to that the route. He the Miois- before gone It wns the frank de- iie desired ^nd that he the road to completion. This was not sufficient, however, for the House to declare that the past policy of the Government bad been good With reference to the threats of the Hon. Minister of Agriculture that the members of this House from Quebec who would not support the Government in this matter would find that it would have the effect of depriving that Province forever of the Itenefit of the Pacific Rail- way, be thounht the hon. gentleman must have taken them fjr children. Hon, Mr. 1.ETBLLIER Db ST. JUST eaid the hon. gentleman had misinterpre- ted uim ; whathehadsaid was, iftha mem- bers for Central and Lower Canada voted for this motion,it would make them lose the link which was to unite the Pacific Railway with the railroads of Quebec. Although this vote of censure, if carried, would not necessarily be fatal to the Government,a8 such a vote would be if carried in the other House, it was of great importance. Tills was the reason why be had said that this House bad the right tc/ explain their views and place them before the public, but it would be better not to pass such a vote of censure when, by doing so, it would not place the Opposition in any better position. Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Then vote with us. Hon. Mr LETELLIER De ST. JUST said the Government had shown by the ir pushing on the construction of the different links of tho rai.- road: by their continuous exer- tions to make the location of the main line through and beyond the Rocky Mountains, and by the construction of the Pembina Branch their desire to fulfil to the best of their ability their obligation to British Columbia. Hon. Mr. MACDONALD said he had to oppose both the amendments. Sup- posing the Government should be dis- posed not to proceed with this work as fast as they ought, they could fall back on this resolution, and say, " We have done what you told us, wo have gone to work, having a due regard to the other financial reqitirements of the country, and could do no more." The object sought to be attained by the motion before the House had, in his opinion, been attained An expression of opinion, embracing both sides of this question, had been had, and that was all that was necessary. Hon. Mr. CARRALL said before the question was put he claimed the right to make a few remarks. He felt the gravity of this subject ; he felt that dunsg this session, ko aiagiilarly barren of any im- portant legislation, this resolution was the most im^>ortant motion tbat had been brought before the House, not only i>hi8 , session, but since Confederation. He believed that the majority of this House would agree with him that the policy of , the Government, or the no policy of the : Government with respect to the Pacific Railway from its inception down to the , present hour, had not given satisfaction to the people of Canada. Their object , was first to defeat tlie scheme of the late Government, which was, he considered, a national calamity. It was a difficult thing at the present day to have any of , their political acts judged fairly, and they bad only to look to the future for a pro- per veidiot. As at present, he ventured ^ to state, however forbearing or considerate their actions might be, it would be attri- buted to party warfare. Every hon. gen- tleman must have been convinced thai . from the time the late Government were overthrown the policy of the present Ad- ministration had been the most marvellous mass of incongruities and contradictions that ever any Ministry stood god-father to, and he ventured to assert tbat it must discredit them in the eyes of every right thinking man in the Dominion. He was sorry to li3ar the allusions made to the position of British Columbia re- preientatives in this Parliament, but he ventizk-ed to assert that if they did not numerically, they did financially represent as important consti- tuencies as any other six members in the Commons and three in the Senate. He did not deny that Britiah Columbians would like to have money expended in their Province, and he did not think that any other gentlemen would dislike to have money expended in their Provinces also. He thought it should have been ber o«th the dign'ty of the Hon. Minister of Agiiculture to have brought down a statement, showing the amount of revenue from British Columbia and the amount of public money expended ihere, as an argu- ment against them. He would have looked for sucn a tbmg from a Lower Town grocer, but not from a Dominion statesman. If he thought the vot-» for his resolution '/*culd have thd etttitct of overthrowing thb Government he would hesitate to press it, as he did not think the country was quits ready for the change that was coming. But that the country was misrepresented he bad not the slightest doubt, and he would point, as a proof, to the result of nearly every new election since the general election, 62 which showed a rapid growth of absolute want of confidence in the AdminiBtrati3n of the day. Ho thought this debate bad elicited a great deal of information on the Bubjeot, and when the outside public read the reports, it would, perhaps, have the effect of maturing public opinion, and forming some sound policy upon which the railway scheme could be based that would be acceptable to the entire Dominion. Hon. Mr. DICEEY said in his opinion the Government had failed entirely to defend themselves and their vacillating course in this matter, or to grapple with thegreat question of the Pacific Railway. The vote was then taken on the amend- ment, which was carried on the following division : — OoNTBNTS — The Honourable Messieurs AiUns, Alexander, Allan, Armand, Belle- roee, Benson, Botsford, Bourinut, Camp- bell, Carrall, Chapais, (Jhinic, Cochrane, Cknnwall, Dever, Dickey, Dickson, Ferrier, Girard, Hamilton (Kingston), Kaulbacb, McLelan (rx)ndonderry), Macpherson, Miller, Montgomery, Muirhead, Odell, Price, Ryan, Shaw, Smith, Sutherland, Trudel, Vidal-34. NoN-CoNTBKTS— The Honourable Mes- sieurs Archibald, fiaillargeon, Bureau, Chafi'ers, Christie (Speaker), Cormier, Fabre, Ferguson, Quovremont, Ilaythome, Leonard, Leiellior de St. Just, MoClelan (Hopewell), McMaster, Macdonald (Vic- toria), Faquet, Reesor, Scott, Se}rmour, Simpson, Skead, Stevens, Wark, Wilmot —24. Hon. Mr. DICKEY called attention to the fact that Mr. Archibald had voted, al- though he had paired with Mr. Northap. Hon. Mr. ARCHIBALD said the pair only held good for Friday night. Hon. Mr. MILLER said he understood from Mr. Northup that ho would not have gone away until after the vote, only for having paired with Mr. Archibald. Kaulbaoh, acpberaon, &(], Odell, iutherland, tble Mea- , Bureau, Cormier, laytbome, , MoClelan nald (Vic- Seymour, k, Wilmot ttentioD to voted, al- !fortbup. d the pair mderstood d not bare only for », o; id. m '^3 i'^- '!■ Friday, April 7. PACIFIU BAILVTAY. Hon. Mr. COHNWALIj— In rising to addrvu the Uouse on the tubjoot to wuich my motion relatoa, I do so without any feeling of diffidence, for I feel in the tirat place that the subject is one vrhich from its importance, will command the atten- tion of the House { and, secondly, that the experience of fourteen yoars si)ent in British Columbia, and the knowledge of the country which I have necessarily attained, enable me to give to this hon. Houa* the information which I am sure it would be gUhl to obtain. I have con- sequently placed on the minutes the fol- lowing notice, " that I will call attention to the considerations (other than those of engine*ring diffioultiee) which affect the quMtion ot the location of the line of tue ' Paolfio lUiilway from Tete Jaune Csche to the ocean," and in praceeding with that notion I must promise that I shall •tidMvoar and that it is my earnest wish to divost my remarks of any sectional ori prsgudiced obairaoter. There is no doubti that In these matters • one's n;ind and] views are mofe or less, and perlia^s ttn- known to oneself, biassed by private in- terests, but in what I shall say I shall endeavour so to confine myself to matters of fact capable of the clearest demonstra- tion that 1 will venture to assert that not one of my arguments shall be open to refutation. There can be no doubt that there are other questions besides those of mere engineering deUul which intimately ooncem the settlement of so important a matter as the location of the line of the -great trans -continental railway; and of such importance are those questions that it behoves both the country and the Par- liament of the country to watch closely what is going on, and to have an intelh- gent and appreciative knowledge of the country through which the line should run. Hon. gentlemen have doubtless •tudied with some degree of attention the map of the projected course of the Cana- dian Paoifio Railway which has laid upon the table of the House for some ten days, •and having done so, I hope they will be able to tmow me in the remarks which I mi^make on the threia separate routes whioh are marked upon that map as bAVing been surveyed tlirough the Pro- Tinne of Brttiih Columbia. I^e first route towhiohl ifrish to call attention is the aaoat toutherly of ttiose tuftifked upon the «ui^ and 1 aUU dlaiitlitilih it by the ^waneof thi"FMww River raute." Ibe two 6 other routes I shall allude to as the " Buto Inlet" mute and the ''Oardnor Chan- nel route" those names being respec- tively the names of tho so-called harbours which the routes reach on the coast of the mainland of British Columbia. The first point of superiority which is oiyoyed by the "Frazer River ttoule" over Its competitor^ is embodied in the fact that it ii the shortest and most direct of the routes from the Rooky Mountains to the cosat. I bold in my hand a statement of the comparative distances of the surveyed routes, kmdiy supplied by the principal authority on the truns-continoutal survey, and I find by it that the distance from the Yellow Hoad Pass through the Rocky Mountains to Burrards Inlet, the project- ed terminus of tho "Fraier River Route" is 513 miles, while from the same point to the Head of Bute Inlet is 560 miles, This will show a difference in distance in favour of the "Frazer River Route" of 47 miles, while the jjtatement to whioh I refer says that the line to "Qardner Chanqel" not being accurately shrveye4t the distance cannot be correctly ffiven. That point of greater direotnesa and shortnesu on the part of the "Frazer River Route" is the first whioh I will commend to the attention of the House as important. Tho next point is as to the grade on the line. In order to carry con- viction on this point to the minds of hon. gentlemen it is necessary for me to de- scribe the course of the "Frazer River Route." Leaving "Tote Jaune Cache," a point which is common to all the survey* ed lines and situated a little to the west- ward of the Rocky Mountidns, that route within a few miles strikes the bead waters of the north branch of the River Thomp«» son, and follows down the valley of that river till at a distance of some 200 miles it reaches a place called Kamloopson the main stream of the River Thompson. It thence follows, without deviatiouj the course of the river till it reaohea the point of confluence of the River Thompson with the Frazer River, and thenoe following the valley of the latter stream it reachea the coast of the mainland of British Columbia, at the harbour of Burrard's Inlet. Hon. members will thus see that this route follows uninterruptedly what is the natu- ral outlet of the countoy. It is conftqed to the valleys of the great rivers I have natudd, and they having no fiklls of impor- tance in any ifwt of their course to the ocean, it naturally follows that the natural gryhde is regular aud favourable. All r^potta of the ebgLuMn engaged agree I ■■■■■ 64 upon the fact that this route affords by far the moat iAvourable gradients. Compared TTith the line to Bute Inlet, the advantage enjoyed in this particular by the " Fraaer Kiver Route" stands out very promi- nently. On the "Bute Inlet route," as explamed by the Hon. Secretary of State in this House and by the Premier in another place, the great difficulty is that when the line reaches within seventy miles of the coast it is found to be at an altitude of 3,460 feet, and necessarily great difficulties are encountered in the attempt to find the gradients, within so comparatively short a distance, which would enable the engineers to locate a line passing from an altitude of 3,460 feet to the sea level in the space of |seventy miles. Hon. members will thua clearly perceive the advantage in favour of the ♦' Eraser Eiver Kout^i," as to the grade of the surveyed lines. The next point whioh 1 will urge in favour of the " Frazer River Route" is that it pasaes through that portion of the Frorinoe, the south-eastern portion, which is blessed with the beat climate. The winters throughout that section are very short, never exoeediim fovtr months in duration, seldom exceed- ing three ; and the sdow fall is oompara- tively light, This, of course, is a matter of great moment, and one which can be well appreciated by members of this House, who, resident-) of Canada, are ac- customed to the severities of the wiuter of the country and its heavy falls of snow. To the eastward of the Cascade Range in British Columbia, in the section of coun- try through which the "Frazer River Route " runs, the snow^fall is so light and insignificant that it is unnpoassary to allude t3 it ; but in the gt/p which .,he Frailer River has cut for itselJ through the Cascade Range the snow fall is heavier. However, hon. gentlemen may relieve themselves of much a.pprehension on this score, when I assure them that during my residence in British Columbia I have had occasion to travel the road running through that pass during eveory month of the year, that I never saw more or know of more than four feet of snow on the level in any place at any one time, and that during many winters the road can uninterruptedly be traversed by vehicles on wl "^Is. Now the more northern routes b.^rveyed through the country can- not f.» • ^ moment be talked of inihis "«*vy. i /ery one knowing anything of a^Mubject knows that iai British Colum- i)i*'lLj snow fall in the more northern pt/UuQs of the Proviace is e^oMStye. On this point thea i^n has the •>Frazer River Route" an incalculable advantage. Then again very importarc is the fact that the "Fraier River Route" would run through that part ot the Provinoe which is decidedly the most valuable as an agricultural and inhabitable country. Coming down as I have already described the valley of the North Thompson it reaches Kamloop's, already a thriving lit- tle place of some importance, •tnd the centre of one of the best portic^ns of British Columbia. The line thence passes for a considerable distance through a. country which is now chiefly used for grazing purposes, but whioh is capable of great developement in an agnoultur^l way, till reaching the Frazer, it traveraeii the pass cut by that river in the moun- tains and over a country whioh is perhaipit.^ only valuable as aSbrding a meau» of communication between tho interior of the country and the coast. Lower down, however, the valley of the Frazer opwm out and for the last 80 zi 90 milus the line would pass through what is p ob%bly the most valaable agrioultural section of British Columbia. Thus for the greater part of its course the "Frazer River route" passes through tbe«ountry whioh is not onl^ now the most tk&okly settled of all Eritish Columbia, but wmoh is the most habitable of all the moinhmd of that Provinoe, and whioh is most capable of development ; but, in addition, the line besides running through a desirable part of the country would also drain of its pro- ductions a still larger portion, and 1 have no hesitation in stating my belief that if the " Frazer River route " be adopted as the western portion of the trans-contin- ental line, it would be found that on com- pletion that portion at all events of Che Canadian Pacific Rtulway would be self supporting. Such, hon. gdntlemen, would not oe the case with the more northerly routes where the country, owing to its high northern latitude and the great fdtitude of the m%jor part of it above the luvel of the sea, is andesirable to a degree, and never could be now or a oantury henoe inhabited by any number of people or made use of in an agricultural way. With regard to the most northern route of all, that to "Gardner's Channel," I shall dismiss all consideration of it by saying that I conceive it impossible thi^ any governing party could, when in pos- session of all the facts which would enable them to come to a oonoiusion on such an important matter,ever drea'u for a momeiKt (jI oarryiug the line tbrougb on tlMt favom havf porta the" rardi thec( tunbii onev sorts I half make Inlet itsna fromi one w thati them straitf couve the "Frazer If advantage, c is the faot >ut« " would ie Provinoe \ valuable as able oouotry. kdy desoribeid rhompsaa it I thriving lit* nco, *l ', it traverser I the aioui\- sh is perh'iipt.^ a meautt of ) interior of jower dxivHf i'razer )peD6 K) iuiJ<;:s the i ia p: obably 1 seatioQ of the greater Eraser fiiver iiutry whioh okl^ settled wwoh is the ihmd of that it capable of m, the line mirablo part of its pro- and 1 have )eliof that if adopted as rans-contin- hat on ooxn- ents of the uld be self men, would northerly iwing to itB the great above the foa degree, a century >r of people tural way. hern route Ihannel." I n of it by Msible that an in pos- MiJd enable msuoh an ramomeni ou that r^r^tte. In a^ilitioa to all these points in favour of the "Praaer River Route," I havr now to draw attention to one of im- portanee quite as great. I maintain that the " Fraxer River RaTte" reaohes at Bur- rard Inlet the most favourable harbour on the coast of the mainland of British C!oI- umbia, a harbour accessible at all seasons, on every day of the year, to vessels of all sorts and sizes, and capable of holding half the entire marine of the world. To make a comparison between it anenoh, and such was the difiSouity experienced in navigatin£ HO small a cmft as a gun-boat to the head of Bute Inlet) tht>t the Admiral gave it as his distinct opinion that it would be quite impossible io plaoe the teiininus of a great trana-oontinental mlway at such a place. It will be evident to hon . members that if a little^ gun-boat some 60 feet long, or thereaboat, a boat built on purpose to poke its way tSirough intricate and difB- cult channels, should experience great difficulty in reaching the head of " Bute Inlet," (bat it would b3 out of the quea>. tion to expect a big ooean steamer three or four hundred feet long io get there at all. So much foithe harbour reached by the^Kraser River Route," as compared with others ; and now I will repeot the advantages of the more southern ^^ni^ niMff tho ** Frazer River lioute." I olvim for it the advantages that : Ist. It has greater direotneBS and shorir neso than the other surveyed routes. 2nd. That it affords a perfect grade throughout its oourse- 3rd. That it ntnu ♦urough a part of the country blessed with a very short winter and a light snow fall. 4th. That it passes through a part eminently habitable Hod valuable. 5tb. Tiiaf. at hut it rervohes the best'; harbour en the ooaat of the mainUmd. .'; Now, hon. gentlemen, these that I have mentioned i»re facta: facts, I maintain, that are incapable of refutation by any member of this House, whether repre- senting British Columbia or other part of the Domiiiion ; and, in addition, I wish to draw attention to a^^other point of interest. It is this, tbit if the line of the " Frazer River Routd" were adojpted, the country through whioh it runs is capable of sup- plying, of growing all the articles of food necessary for the support of those enga.ged in the construction of the line, and that thus British Columbia would reap eH posN sible advantage from the expenditure of so large a sum of money, and that the oonstruotion of the line would do so much to build up the Provinee that not only it, but the Cominion, through it, would be permanently benefitted. These advantages would bo lost if the line cLosen was one of the more northern. The country over which those lines pass is not fitted for agricultural occupation and consequently aU supplies would foe brought from the large marketa of Portland and San Francisco to the south of us. On the other hand it is urged, and indeed the other night in an- other place it was stated by the P.ijmier^ that the extra coat of building this line * virtually rendered the adoption of thi;'''. Frazer River route out of the question. Z queation the fioot of the extra cost of thll Hue, for I know that the Governinent are not and never have be«n in pr ^session of Bufiiciont engineering data with referenoo to the "Frazer River Route" to be able to compare fairly the cost of that line, with that of others ; ^.m L say, besidea; in a matter of tliia r ort, thai the primary cost of oon^tniotion, although very itcportant, is not by aoy means one whioh should override other important conaiderationaj; and that whdi^ic the question lies be- tween the ftdvisibHity of building a line ijOO miles in length, over a country, to say the lojist of it, undesirable, and on the other hwd of building it through a coun- try favocrad by nature, eminently suitable lor tubitation, and capablo of sttppottitjfi: p. largo population, that^tiiip. common seise alone would point out ih6 deairabilitj of the adoption of the latter Line as th.A one which in course of v^/.* struotion .vouid be of value to the coun- try, and the only one which on compie- tjon wo ild be tomid to \>& satisfactory.' Perhajs 1 have now trespasBed too loafc on thogo«.'d naiPUM and indulgence the Pacific ; ivailable for ral point of ) would pass rtiona of tbe umbiA. He route him- another gen- t authorized ioial souroea Yellowhead mmon to all, lat is to say , le summit of of that Pru" refore given -The only lered is that er Bivers, to 1 to English I, the. other Fort Hope ) to40milea »ad. Bad 471 miles. : leB, 476 " say, 85 «f (I .... 561 lis line would 1 in exoea« of ountains. — It he lands it (razing lands, agricultural Ration. It is of the whole > Okanagan), i by railway abitants now der 500, and portion, they e line would its at all, and . 9 of reachiU; issengers an< s bridge, ntains.— The l*>aser are all )f the l^iiio •8. The bulk New West- uld leaye the iurrard Inlet ailway is not •nt of tbeip* Ifmdi, or the iaxportation of their pro- duce. 2. The Central Group .-^The beat of those lines is that from the Yellow- hiead Fan via Tetejaune Cache and down to IFortGeorge, thence by the Talleys of the Stewart, ChiUcoh, Blaok- water, Nazco, Chicotin and Homalthco valleyB to Bute Inlet, in all of which there are rich agricultural lands of con- siderable extent ; some of them are sur- rounded by an extent of grazing lands scarcely inferior to those of the southern Districts of the ProTince. This line sweeps round the northern and eastern flank of the Cariboo mining range; s'^d, by the Giaoome Portage, would ofiPer easy access to the Omineca or Peace Eiver Mloing District—its length is 550 miles. But any line would be incomplete if its terminus were not capable of connection (without transhipment of freight) with Vanoourer Island in all seasons and all weaiher ; and t centre of Vancouver Island and the richest part of British Columbia both for agriculture and minerals —coal and iron lying side by aide. But then for Asiatic commerce it would be necessary to construct the railway on Vancouver Island from Seymour Narrows to Stamp Harbour on the Albemi Canal, Barclay Souud, or to Esquimalt. The line to the former would stand thus : — UILBS. Yellowhead Pass to Wadding- ton Harbour 550— raiL StMm ferry to Vancouver Island 75 -water. KailwaytoStaiap Harbour, say, 82— raU. Totia 707 Or Yellowhead Pass to Wad- '"•''-• dington Harbour ;550— Mfll: ' Steam ferry to Vancouver . I«land 75— wateri Thence by rail to Deep Bay- common to both 57— raiL > Thence to Nanaimo, say.... 46— " Thence to Esquiujualt 67 — " Total 795 Northern Group. — The only line at present surveyed throughout is th»tto Eams-quot Bay, Dean Inlet— length 5^4 miles. This line, besides being the shortest, would probably cost less *d construct— mile for mile — tlum any of the other lines. It is also 200 to 300 miles nearer to Japan and China (by the direct large circle sailing) than from Stamp Harbour, and fully 300 miles nearer than from Esquimalt. But that applies only to the homeward voyage, as . on account of the currents, a southern course is taken outwan} to Japan and China, and a northern course homeward from these places. Herewith is a chart of the currents and the Ihie of route from San Francisco to CLina and return laid down. From this you will see that the so-called Japan current sets away from the coast of that country eastwardi its northern edge washing the long group of Aleutian islands, and its southern eflge by the still-water of the Sargassa sert. The northern part of the current strikes full upon Queen Charlotte and Vancouver Islands ; and if you were to place a thread on the globe— one eiid on the coast of Japan, and continuing the thread on a stnight line as close to the Aleutian islands as practicable, and producing the same, still in a straight line—you will . find it strikes near the southern part of' Vancouver Island, and full in the cur- rent. The current then defiects to the south till it touches the northern ed^ of the Equatorial stream, which fiows west- ward, then sweeps rouud northward to the coast of China and Japan, making an oblong oval, so that steamers from San Frauoisco make the outward voyage by the southern rente, touching at Hunalula, and on their return take the corthem route, hugging the Aleutian Islauda and the coast of Vancouver Island. Therefore the northern terminus for the Canadian Pacific Railway is chiefly favourable as shortening the route from China, but unfavourable as lengthening the voyage to China aud Japan, for no steamers, much 1^8 sailing vessels, will go against the' ^ onrrent. The northMn linei^ OB»np up les0 good country. itb»Q the oeniE»L Hod. Mr. CORNWALL oontended that tke line from, Fort G«orge to Bute Inlet would pass through a country the altitude of wfaioh was so great th&t it was not good for agrioultuve. Hon. Mr. SGOTT asked if Waddington Harbour was not available for ressels by sailing nor^^west iihrough Queen Char- lotte Straits. lion. Mr. CORNWALL said the navi- gation there must be intricate, as the obannel was thiokly studded with islands. In the paper read by his hon. friend it was mentioned that the cost of the fVaser Biver Route would be several iniUions of dollars more than Bute Inlet ; but that authority did not calculate the expense of carrying the line from Bute Inlet down to Esquimslt. Hon. Mr. CABRALL said the Govem- xnont of the day were not in a position to state the comparative sost of the f'rasev River route as compareo' with others, as no proper survey of that route had ever been made. As to the statement made by his hon. friend about the depth of snow, he had never heard of four feet of snow falling in one storm in any part of British Columbia ; he had never seen an much as four feet of snow on the grouncl in that Province, and the road would nod require snow sheds at any poiut, as tha Union Pacific did. He was glad an hon. friend in the other House had brought up tbis question of anothor survey of the Eraser River route, and he hoped the Government would see Ut to saake it be- fore adopting any other. Hon. Mr. MACDONALD (Victoria)— The House must be si^j;: and tired of the Pacific Railway questlb.' tbis session. Hon. gentlemen have been told about routes, rocksisnowdrifts, and canons, and I'll ven- ture to 8817 that they are nat a bit wiser than they were before. I think it would be most unbecoming were I to stand up and contradict every word said by the hon. fentleman from Asherift; bow could the [ouse firm an opinion if we both differed, hut I do not intend expressing an opinion upon any route, because I think it is a matter which can only be decided by the Government and the engneers. I am willing for my part to leave it to the scientific men who ba''e been over the country. Hon. Mr. CORNWALL interrupted, Bs^ying the hon. guntieiuan has never bMo over the couo&y. He knows noth- kig aboat it, and h&sno bnainaMto inalo»- these remarks. Hon. Mr. MACDONALD— I haTO • right to make these remarks, And I contend that it is neither wise n((s i judicious to bring forward i)u»^ question now. The hou. gentleman has lost his temper, and this bears me out in saying that the House could not arrive at any intelligent conclusion in this matt«r, not even if they had the whole of tiie people of British Columbia before them, llie hoQ. gentleman forgot to mention that the most fertile lanaa on the Fraeer are made accessible by the Fraaer River running through them, and require no railway. He also forgot to mention that there are large tracts of fertile land from Bute up by Chilcotin toW(«rds Fort George, which require opening np. When Bute Inlet was first thought of by Mr. Waddmgton, it w&s as a harbour oom- plete in itself without reference t^^- Esquimalt. The hon. gentleman hMf) said that Burrard Inlet is the best harbour/ in the Province. (Mr. (Jornwftll'^I saii,, on the mainland.) Mr, Macdonald— Alrr v though the hon. gentleman said intbift'i' Ptovinoe, I accept the ezpUnaticni. I repeat again that I am quite wilUng to leave this matter to tlM Government and the engineers, %s . t^y oi# jpw> ,»4« . thematter. .,■ ,,-..,. a, o -.myvim ni^-o^ Hon. Mr. CORNWALL coaisidered «b«' hon. gentleman had no right to get up in' his place and make such a statement that the opinions oilered were sectional. The hon. gentleman had never been on the mainland in his life, except when he bad visited New Westminster. Hon. Mr. MACDONALD said it only ii lustrated the force of what he had stated. The hon. gentleman had forgotten that there were other tracts of fertile country in British Colimibia than on the Fraaer. Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said he did not think the hon, gentleman who bad spoken b>st had done justice to the hon. gentle- man who had introduced this subject to the notice of the House. The hon. gen< tleman had guarded himself against ad- vocating any one route. He had told the House that he had no' engineering know- ledge of the Eraser River route, but he had certainly given information which, for his part, ho considered very valuable, and it had given him a much clearer idea of the question than he ever had before. It was one thing to read engineer's reports, and another to have a Oivi voce desorip- tiion of the oountxy, its ebaraoter,reeouroeB m mis» idid ocpaoUy la the fatttr«. tt was a Bpeeoh that had given him more informa- tum than any other on this subject. He certainly thought that as far as this dis- cussion had gone, it had given to the H'< !r-i« clear impression of the several re .. and hon. gentlemen would be dis- EC ed to believe that the arguments of is hon. friends were very cogent reasons in favonr of the Fraser River route. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said he thought the disousaion they bad heard would satisfy the House that there were a great many routes in British Cohunbia that were open to discussion, as to which they should ultimately accept in the interest of the Dominion. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cornwall) had spoken with the greatest possible favour of the route by the Fraaer Elver. The hon. gentleman spoke from this stand-point in a broad and general sense, but it wotdd be remembered that the hon. gentleman desired that the line ahould pau in the vicinity of his own property. Bixu Mr. CORNWALL disclaimed any sectional motives in advocating a survey of the Eraser River route. Hon. Mr. 8C0TT said he did not tax the hon . gentleman with any such motive, but it waa only human natiu« that an hon. gentleman in advocating aline which passed hia own residence, must speak of it with some partiality. The hon. gentle- man had selected that portion of British Columbia, believing it to be the best for business and agricultural purposes, and naturally he would also select it as the best for railway purp<>ies. The remarks they had Just heara,l4Kl proved that this whole question w'v. surrounded with a multiplicity of embarrassments, that the engineering difficulties were much greater thui the people were disposed to imag ine. Hon. gentlemen who were inclined to censure tue Government for not com- mencing the expenditure of money in British Columbia, wolild now see it would have been very unwise, when even the members from British Columbia were not in harmony on the seleotion of the route in that Frovinoe. The hon. gentle- man bad quoted from the report of the Chief Engineer of 1874, but if he had read further he would have given some more valuable information respectiug the impracticability of that route; that the work would consist of a large uuaount of bridging over deep ravines; several miles of proleotion works along uie river would be required, and th« proportion of exces- sively heavj woric «zteaaedOY«r 57 milea, and incliided 7 to 8 milea of tahniellMig. He did not know the chief engineer had obtained any further information, but he presumed he had. He found in the rough estimate of the cost of that route it was put down at thirty-three millions of dollars. The number of routes sur- veyed or partly surveyed was three, and they might be divided into the Northern, Central and Souths em ; the latter terminated at Bute Inlet, the Central terminated at Dean Channel, and the lattar terminated at Gardener ChanneL Tete Jeaime Cache was the point at which all the different roads con- verged. From that point west the road waa located to Fort George, there crossing the Fraser River, and then running down to what was ori^nally known as route No. 4 terminating at Bute Inlet. This was the favourite route, and it passed through a country somewhat superior in its capa- city fw settlement. Bute Inlet had been spoken of probably before any question of engineering difficulties had arisen. It had generally been looked upon as a very desinble harbour and he was not aware until hearing tiiis debate, that any difficulty would anse in obtainLog a har- bour on the coast line at that point Hbe distance and surveys were all traced out to the coast line ; it was not intended to stop at the extreme inland point as it was estimated that the line would at least go down to deep water. The route by No. 2 would be as his hon. friend would observe 513 miles, while the distance to Bute Inlet would be 550 milea. The cost, however, in the rough estimate of ex- penses that had been formed by the engineers, of that particular route, was placed at twenty eight millions of dollars, as compared With ^irty-three millions of dollars by route No. 2 by the Fraser River to fiurrard Inlet. Hon. Mr. CORNWALL said the cost of Bute Inlet route had not been calculated down to deep water, but only to the head of the Inlet. Hon. Mr. SCOTT said there were other lines north, which the engineers had condemned. The Government would be guided in the selection by the character of the country, its soil, climate, and general advantages. In the winter there . —yy — was very little snow along the Bute Inle t n'(0-f,iiA4v route^nd it was stated as a positive fact that horses and cattle remained out all winter. Hon. Mr. CORNWALL said the hon. geutlemaa must bo ignonmt of tb« ftot ^»o tiwi A irary few xmlan . further north, the grbundwas frozen to the depth c' thirty ,ieet, and itnever thawed out ; the miner? had to build fires on the ground in order ,to work it Hon. Mr, SCOrr «aid that was not the information he had received, but all these questions had to be decided before the (iovemmjnt would be justified in selecting a route. lie would announce that the telegraph contractor, who was now at Ottawa, had that morning re- ceived a through telegraphic despatch from Battle River, via Selkirk, within two hundred miles of Fort Edmonton. This would bear out the statement he had zxiad9 a few days previou& as to the pro- gress of tJiat work. Hon. Mr. COBNWALL said any hon. gentleman who knew British Columbia, would know that the statement of the Secretary of State that horses and cattle were.able to remain out during the winter on the northern route, could not be correct He did net think there ever was such a thing as a horse or a cow within two hundred miles of the place. /. £, # J • ^ ^ > - f ■ LEGISLATIVE LIBRARY. British Columbia. ij ika . ^nvi.-o-n