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Ih 
 
iiouse of Commons Bebati^s 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTK PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON THE 
 
 CRIMIML LAW AMENDMENT BILL. 
 
 TUESDAY, 15TEI APEIL, 1890. 
 
 INCEST CLAUSE. 
 
 On section 6, 
 
 Mr. f^LAKE. I must confess I luive .some ap- 
 prehension tliat this i.s hanlly likely to erticiently 
 serve the purpose which I suggested for the con 
 sulerat.on of tho hon. Minister. I suggested the 
 ea.se m «-hich a female of tender years- a" d it is 
 upon such tliat this offence i.sconi.nittod--wl,o had 
 succumlted under the intlucnoe of fear, ^>.,uld be 
 expo.sed to the penalties of the criminal law. I 
 ,atn not, however, at the moment, prepared to pro- 
 po.sc any more adequate reme.ly than the one pro- 
 posed l,y the hon. gentleman, hut I confess my 
 objections are ncjt completely r.nnoved. 
 
 _Mr. IJLAIvK. I would .sr.hmit for the consi.ler- 
 ation ot the Committee, and especially of the 
 Minister, that we Jiave to deal with the l,alance 
 ot conveniences and inconveniences, and with the 
 balance of dithoulties on one side or the other. In 
 the great Inilk of oases, I think it will be admitted, 
 that you have mt one crimiunl, and, if the chance 
 ol bringing that criminal to justice in the great Inilk 
 ot the cases is gomg to be diminished by a law which 
 makes the other party, who is not .sukftantially 
 crimmal, liable to fouiteen years' impri,sonmcnt, 
 are we not, for the sake of the exceptional case 
 
 to Which the hon. gentleman ha.s alluded, and in 
 regard to which tlie ol)servation of my h,,n. friend 
 {Mr. Laurier) ia of cogency, that this imist have 
 commenced by the criminality of the male, takintf 
 away our chances of punishing the criminals in the 
 vast majority of cases ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. It is possible that we may be 
 drawing an Act here whi.di will defeat itself in the 
 great bulk of cases. \Vliat is going to be done 
 ^vhen you are indicting one or otTier of tliese two 
 persons? First, you indict the mnn, wno is 
 generally the principal otFcnder. Th.. woman will 
 not be bjuud to criminate herself, it would be 
 extremely unlikelv that slie woid. run thi- risk of 
 doing r,j. My hon. friend says she wouhl Ijc 
 lield not guilty. 
 
 p.obability of advancing justice, of securing the 
 condemnat-. ot the really guilty party: and 
 when the w, .nan is liable to be placed in tlfe dock 
 r elf l'"',"^ ^''« con,..n:..sion of this outrage .m 
 herself, by her own relati.-e, it may be, you can- 
 not impress upon her a calculation of chances that 
 by givujg her evidence, though proving lierself 
 guilty, she may yet be making a door of escape. 
 
 \wV ^'V^'p-, I s'lggest to the hon. member for 
 W lnmd,erland (Mr. Alitchell), that his motion 
 uouldbeniconclusive; but he shoul.l wait until 
 the Commit cee report, an.l move his motion with" 
 the Speaker m the Chair. We have alrea.ly 
 <li\ided once on this provi.si.m in the Committee. 
 
 TfiADE COMBINATIONS CONSPIRACY. 
 
 On .section 1 8, 
 
 „f h'"' i^VV^'^r ^f>'"P'">"n is, that the revision 
 .the s atutes ha.s efiected a very serious and prej„. 
 d.cal alteration of the law, in respect to the par- 
 ticular class of transactions to which this law wa.s 
 
 ' r^ff ,^ "■•".'>■ If"t',^ was apprehensive, when I 
 sa^^ the clau.se in the shape in which the hon. gen- 
 tleman propo.sed It, and heard the reas.ms which he 
 gave, that the diminished efficiency which the law 
 has, iimler the Revised Statute8,'would be alt<,gether 
 removed. I am, therefore, very glad to see thlt 
 whatever be the prefatory changes the hon. gentle 
 man has, at any rate, re-solvir to leave that 
 diminished efnciency intact. My own impression 
 IS that the original ethciency aught not to Inve 
 bean imp,ured ; that the reference t., that particular 
 class of offences with which the Revised Statutes 
 deal a.;d which ^yas originally .lealt with by prior 
 kg 8 ation to which I shall refer, should remain, 
 and that the whole and entire vigor of the excep- 
 tion which was made as to statutable crimes 
 
 y. hieh I take on this subject may be apprcLnded, ■ 
 1 mil have to trouble the House with a brief 
 re erence to the statutes as they stood. The earliest 
 statute which we have on this subject is .35 Victoria 
 
 iii 
 
 i ' 
 
tr 
 
 art« It WIS tho„gl,t ..x,,i,.,li.mt to nmk,. n„n sh^i ^ sln^^^^^ 
 
 ncction of «„rki„,,n„..„ with o,,.. n. h ', I iolv , '"'"'■""'';""• t^' ''" '"' act ,M,!,i,.h...l.le 
 
 n.ayl.c.ofe.„,,|,o„.switl a„r,th.,. a i '„i L. unn n'u::''' "'', *"' 1"'"*«'-!'''^ '•>• statute 
 
 11..S. art.. ,.„„i.shal,ic. l.y i,„,„i..o„,n,mt, wit or ' ^ly^iVfT''^' ''''^T '""«"'' '■'■i"'i»al 
 
 w.,houtha,ah,ho,.J..,.,,,ft.,,o;o,ha,,tl.rJ.M„o,'tlm i:;".tX^^ ^ ^T ";'"''''^ "^ '^'^^ I""" 
 ll>.-To «,.rv p,-ovi,sio„.s i,. that .tati.t.. fo, th,. |,.o- ' o,„ of ' ' ,> , . H ^•'">«l"nu.y. 1} ,t we.^e 
 N.vu.,o,.. iHMkMthc. p,oct.,h,,o f...s.,,n,,.a.v,., mJ vitv , f otl.;.ut..s, not .aisu.l o. the 
 
 cutio,.sJ,y justices oWhepea.eo,.t of ..isliJ'L^'';';^. ^f ,;;i' .""X ""I'-t-'-I^^ I'Y «ta,.t., if 
 H power to appeal wa.s ^-ive... The.e Mas, a so. a u^ h swe,, t. ,f 1 1": ';"'"^^''''.'''^' «-;„„„, ily. 
 ve.y piope.. provi«io., that the >.,a.ste>', o,' the ,e a- f ,h ,ei e^n , / "' "m.^pnaey alto.e,!,.,-, 
 
 t,ye or eon„eetio„ of the .na.t.T, sho.'.hi ,.ot .sit .s : n S , . w ' \t l:;'''''':''^ ^ 
 a j.ist.i e ot the peace i.i s.ich lu-oseciitioii. Th',!- ' m ,f Jf . t "' «/l •' '■'« . and so .t stoo.! a„,| j,,,v, 
 
 Act wa.s ,.ot fou.'.l sati,sfacto,.v ,.Tl i, sf-, ),v 'w i,' , . "' " i"' ""' ''"V'^'"' ■^"^"'^^' V^'''^<^'\ : '.« 
 
 Vjctona. chapte..... that h^ w.l'"e ^^i^j'^.;;:! I 1^^ ^l ^ e^ll^'K; ' "'"'' "" ^''^-«^-™ 
 
 otho.' spcihc piov.sion was made, whi.;h, howevei- I .. """"'"'« tl'us, 
 
 U. itselt was iinsatisfactoi.y. I., the foll,,u i.ij L ....^^l^-''"''''''''"'!''" ^''hH ho .m,intaiM„l,h. awiih-t nay 
 
 year :W \^cto,.ia, chapte.' :i7 (1870) was V---^''t ■^aoutl::;'i:i:i:'^^^^^ 
 
 for wh„i,, l,e,„g at that time Minister of j\Lstic. .^»ch act'i. a,! V,"'r;rn^^^ 
 
 1 l.ap])(!n to be lesponsilile 
 
 five 
 I. lit 
 was 
 
 iiilste.' of .histice, I ""wli f"'t 1- an Mll'oiice jiuiiishable by statute. 
 
 matter as allecuiig tlie rehuions of men genei-aii\ 
 and .lot of particnhir ehisses of nie... and it applied 
 tc these relations certain coialitioiis which wen 
 constituted into crimes. Certain particular kinds 
 ot otle.iees. nowofien called hovcotting, and jiarti- 
 cular cases of «, marked and .h^tined ojfeiisive char- 
 actei-, relating to intimidation l.\ threat or other- 
 wise, were specilied. Thev were ina.le ollenees am" 
 it w 
 
 t wi.leuet^of con.spiracy, even th.m.d, they are 
 things done for the purposes of a tra.fe con.l.ina- 
 to. This IS a .hstmct enlargement of the excep- 
 tion, certainly not contemplated l.y me when I 
 H;.p..«.l the legislation, or l.y the Hoii.ses of 
 1 ai liament vvhich passed it at that day : ami yoi, 
 will .(•iidlly perceive that, having had a sp.'eial 
 ■nterest m this legislation, f was surprised whe. I 
 
 being an appeal, i, Li.e i 
 
 accused party objected to b(Miig tricl before the I 
 summary tribunal, the case should forthwith be 
 
 'IS provided that they should be i.unishal.le by i 1' „ , ,, , , --<r- 
 
 the :■ tArnaliveof hiieorimpiis.inment.summarilv • I ' " t'"'t/l''it dmnnishe,! pr„tecti(m which was 
 
 mt that. luMcad of there b.'inu an aoneal. if the I '"*'" ''"^nlod by the Pvevise.l .Statute it was pro- 
 posed further to i.nj.air by substi' -iting ottelices 
 
 , , ,- .,•.-. - " ....wMvon oe,'';''"'''"),''^''>' 1^'Y ''f'"- ""■'■""■« punishable by 
 
 treated as an indictable offence and pro.secuted as \ fTl'^' '"", «,';"^ "'"^ '"■'' -'"'"'f-' ''•"''' t'"'- far, 
 
 such accordingly. Then the fourtli section estab- ■ ,'*/ '"l',^' "'^^ '^''^11 g'> Lack still further ; 1 j,o„e 
 iished for the first time the law as it -stood until i ,, ''". "''' •"'"f'^'ti"" wld,!, \vas given, and advi- 
 the l.evised Statutes, with reference to this parti- i T'-^' ?"''"' ''^"'""^t t''« '-•'^'•■ts of this obnovic.us 
 cularsubjectotc.mspiracy, and its provision is I liat' "* '-'onsiuracy by the Act o.' bSTti, will be 
 to which J particularly wish to draw the attention I '''■■'^f"'f ' ''.v ''ailianicnt, an.l that the attcmnt-^-I 
 <)f tli J ( ommu tee and the'Minister of Justice. The I ""^ ,'' 'l'*'" " ''^t 'It'Mgn-for all J know, it 
 toi-.rth .section provided : . j '"a.V ""t be a designed attempt to .liniinish that 
 
 ..Ti . .. . ' l""^'^''-'""" and to enlarge the e.vcei.tion will not 
 
 vor.^;'!,;",!;!:;:;';;;" ';!"r''"'' '"\"'^'i'"-nal.Ie a«ai„st a ; j"•^^• that the attenti.m,^ I'arliame, t i^ 1] e ho ' 
 
 ,,.,,;,,, , ,■ 1, • '•"" '"i iiil.v MICH lil'ii.- 
 
 vS";:a';;;:aKu;;::5''''^^'-'''''-^">'"-b-^^''^ 
 
 ClHl- 
 
 J he statute then detin.^s what a trade combina- 
 tion i.s. .Now mark that the hiw of cMispiracy was 
 thus .swept out of all operation in conn.-ctioir with 
 .lets ih.nc for the purj.ose ,,f a trade combin.ition 
 .■.\c<.pt 111 two cla.sses of cases ; mile.ss the act done 
 uas.inoHeiiceiiidirtaldc by .statute, or unless it 
 was an o| ence jninishable under this particular 
 Act. in which- case, though not nece.s.sariU, an 
 in.lictableolh.nce, it wasan oflence of that particu- 
 lar character and dcHiied in that jiarticular way by 
 the veij Act itself, as I have ,', scribed a ino.iu.nt 
 ago. Ihei-efoie, the law of c. .nspivacy wa.s abro- 
 
 which has taken place .■enders it im.,o.ssible to say 
 liow small a matter may not now be i.uni.shable as 
 a eriniinal con.spiracy, and introduces lamentable 
 uncertainty into the operations of tra.le com- 
 l.n.at.on.s. I have extracts a st.itement made by 
 a very emmeni egal authority, an ex-Lord Chan- 
 I eel or ut hnglan. , ,n one of the very latc'st .lebates 
 in the House of Lords, upon the subject of the law 
 ofcoiLspiracy, an.l I will trouble the Hou.se by a 
 Iienisal of ,t, inasmuch as it shows how u idc is that 
 iH't which the law of cemspiracy spread.s in order to 
 latcli the subjc'ct. Lord Herseliell .said this : 
 
 (•i>iisare. '!'!!■ 
 
 >'..iiv-;],irae.v is a 
 
irSjE'rcr;;''^^^ » ««■ ™.'ip.^o,o the 
 
 tf-i fy ofcrimhu.l oon'nin'.J''^^'^"'*..'•7r^"''^^ T wore 
 length ti) wli 
 
 ;;,™.™;,;-;-fSHS";-;;;;!;;";;rt£ 
 
 isun, luid 
 iHvu con- 
 
 "Pt llustruti.m of S y c'.nf.V, i m hat ll," "■'""*' '^ '■'" 1 ,f H ^'^,^"'«*-''^«» = '""' I "wy ^uy to tho House 
 .'(insi.ir,.,.., L . ■ •: ■V" ^ "Pproliend tlmt oveiv illcm.l i liveiv (iiiu.stion ul,i,.l, „, ;.,!,. ...;., •' . Vl '"."' 
 
 ... * .-,, ■ •■■"■•'11 ^^tMi.^jjiiKj 
 
 t much I own 711.111* ,.f ,.:, i ..' '■ "-"m ji iioia tiiiur 
 
 •^onsi.irftr.v s H '-rim ml CO Aw^^^^^^^^ '"'^ «^'«':-^ i"«K«I i '',""'•>' 'I'l'^-'^tioii which nii.'hf arise out of r l" l 
 oleuri.v within l\>^S^mik^ ''nu/^.n:^'""' 'f. comes I the.... ..i..,.„.i,„. t .^ - '"■, «t ""t oi it. Ln-Uu 
 
 Now, Sir, wliat I want to pre.s.'^ is tliis • th^,- >,. n, 
 law stoo.i a. the r^uliana.nt of W pas o f' i? we 
 ;U>.tnu.te,| altogether fn,u, the iE\^ 
 .uv of eonspnacy, all aet,^ done i. 
 
 fl,,.,, "• to*'- ■■■» 'o(^ iJiit wi ic, lj|i(|f>l' 
 
 "t^st Durham, after having .state,! the \ iews he 
 
 IS as to the .listni.tion in the law j.rior to the 
 eMswm of tlie statutes an.l now, will not nresstho 
 tonmntte.. to m i.len the p.T.vision wl i" /' tX to 
 the House: an.l the Ifouse will he alrea ly twar 
 fn.n, the requests they have ha,l from l.e hh.t; 
 
 wSl?"'l"' """'^ ^'^''y P-ctical en :^:; 
 wnieli has leen siirir..a(..,l ., ...i ^. j. ,, P . •> 
 
 t'.e,se t.vo eategori..s : fi.st, that the act was in "*'"' '''" ''■''"^^^^^ '"'^^l''- 
 
 ,.«■ ., , . ' ^""''- luL! act was on 
 
 tienees spee.he.l in the statute it.self, an 
 
 '^.ng proseeute.l for eouspiraev.- The revision of 
 
 < heieneyof that proteetiou, hx sul,.stituiin./ t 
 l'llfa.se "punishal.ie l,y statute" for tl , .^ 
 ::nulietah.e l,y statute^- an.!"L, IhU^t^l''^ 
 
 n.r then, than they are for themselves 
 
 "utte,i the appii;:iu;;;r;.f tCi::;;. o/'::-:;;;;;:! i;:;: J:±^'''''''''- }' ?-- *- - ^>-t the lai... 
 
 ^'..Mcy to .u,ts, trivial an-i minor ae Z.en US' '"''"' rV'"''^' ^'l'l"'^''"'"'l t'"' 'li^^tiMe „, 
 p^n^uanee of a tra.le eon.l.ination, though H.,." \ ■ ,'\\'^ C 1 *'^" 'u''"^"' ''^ '">■ ''"■'• ^■•''^>'' 
 
 ""fey'-''te(i iiy my lion, frienil. 
 Sir JOHX TllOMINov m'i 
 
 ;wuehisnowp^.:;;:i;!^!:::,,.ij;:,;-y^-;- 
 
 £ for UV^'fI"' "f.'l<^fe.-eneeto the hon. nS- 
 1 .. t 1 to the House ast year. I think he did s„ 
 
 t l,ftel'";'l " rn ' '"'"": '"■^'■"'i^ation. I know! 
 tl .It after the I5ill was introduced l.y hin. ,lele 
 
 V .H, was given in ,s7,r;h;ii ,;/-,, .:;;-;- 
 
 a^^;f:.s;:;^^--- 
 :ra;-;.^:t^--^^^^^^^ 
 
 oned "^l;t:r /'":/---'-■!' allow tiu.nU?:'l e 
 s • tr.d. ''r:'-'^'?"""-^ restricted entirely to 
 resi.et ; tvhri. n"''''"" ■ ''''•^' I'H'tioular ea.sl in 
 
 enndiination. exist, as'/ s^ ^^f o' h^V i,^f ^ ;V"l'-t --T "" -her of tlTe House uc'S 
 
 few n,on,ents ago, is the indietn.e, fo ■! i ' ' mi"' r"'''',"" 'V "'- '^'■'•- '^"^ "'^' Hill \. tot 
 -.rkvuthorfor any en>ployer or U'L u ' ^ M^'i^ '^"""f *" '•^■='^''' all its stajls 
 
 '^■•■^I'eet of that, the an.endment wiu'ch Zn,,s ' il^ T ^'"'V '" ""•"''^■'- "^ f'^^--^" laLor organlsa 
 oonmletelv covers the case. It dech re, h' t ev i '"' '''T'^'T '"' ''"-■ '■•=«'""i'>,',' "f this .stlS 
 
 ^lause i,,ich I i,U-d;i;:rfor^i:a;",;;:s m^ii^^l^d:}b'-^y^^^^^^^ 
 
 '■afted for that pun.os? h t i o ll' 1 • '^^ '"«t",ctly agreed to tlmt assnl 
 1 post, r.ut . to. all theii- pui'jxises. .Since the Hill was 
 
 m 
 
 intro- 
 
(lucod, tlicy have is«iiti.I ii oiri'iilar. to which the 
 hon. nifiiihcr u.r Montinil (.Mr. (Virniu) ilnnv my 
 iiU(Mitirm ycsttTihiy, luul a copy of whioli I roci'lveli 
 thiH iimiiiing. Tliut fiicuhii- ontaiiw the fnllow- 
 mg renolution : 
 
 n-n'l" 'f,'"*^*"'lv«il. thiit wo ii;<k thiit Sir .T"Iin Thoinpsim's 
 liill lo tiiithc;r Miiieiul »ho crimiiiiil liiw l,e nimiititd bv 
 iiiKcrtiiiKlhc wora'statiitu* in pliicu (if 'law.'" 
 
 Ill addition to that, some eight or ten delegates, 
 representing all the tnule and lal or wrgaiiisatioiisl 
 waited np..n the First MiniMter, the Xrini.ster of 
 Agriiniltnre, the Mini.ster of .Nfariiie and myself, 
 the otliur day, and made the reiinest tliat the 
 mniple eiiaiige should lie made in niy Hill of in- 
 aerting the word "statntu" for "law." I think 
 the .section I liave [iroposed will he an improve- 
 ment, and gives tiiem furtlier protection e\en than 
 that ; Init considering, as the !ion. mendier for 
 \\ est Durham lias .said, that it meets tiie recpiest 
 pnt forward \,y flicse organisations, and, as far 
 as I can sec, meets all tlie pra.-tical diliicidties, it 
 would lie well to rest content with that mncii for 
 the jircsent, at any rate, unless a practical case is 
 put forward calling for a change. 
 
 Mr. ("UUHAX. .Judging by the ol).servati(ma i 
 of tlic hon. mendier for West Durham (Mr. iJlake), I 
 it would appear as if there will not l)o as nuich i 
 protection as formerly. Wluit we nmst also take i 
 into consideration is the fact tliat these organi.sa- i 
 tious are advLsed hy legal gentlemen outside, whoso I 
 views are very different to tliose expro>ssed hy hon. I 
 gentlcmeu licre. I have often mvself, u 'len con- | 
 versing with these peojde, found that points wliicli ! 
 appeared very clear to me, \\ere taken exception ' 
 to l.y them, un.lei advi e given them elsewhere. 
 The hon. the Minister of .Instice has met the reijnest 
 of these people cm tiieir own ground, and, per- 
 ha])s, to some extent iin|)roved uj)on it. It is 
 prohahly well to give them \x hat they ask. 
 
 .Mr. BLAKK. When I was ealle.l upon to 
 legislate on this sid.ject, 1 gave what I thought 
 t was right. 
 
 j Sir .(()H\ THO.Ml'SON. I have given, not 
 i only what I thought was right, hut more than they 
 I asked, and do not i)ro|)OHe to give any nu)re. 
 I Mr. Wlf.SON (Klgin). I am to a certain extent 
 I sati.sned w ith the clause introduced hy the Minister 
 of .Justice, for 1 feel it is going in the direction of 
 granting the relief which the hihor organisatiima 
 j reipiire ; I-nt I would call the attention of the 
 j Mmister of .Justice to the fact that in the n.'port, 
 ! Mr. l-;iliott, the pre.si<lent of that organisation, in 
 'referring to the rdause introduced hy me hust 
 j .Session, stateil that clau.se was introduced so lato 
 and the clause was .so crudely drawn that it would 
 ' not nu'vt the acceptance of the lahor organisations. 
 I The .Minister of .Justice, however, has accepted the 
 ■ clause, as I introduced it last Session, which the pre- 
 sident of tlie organisation said wouhl not suit their 
 : purpose, and he ought to remove the crudity with 
 which itisenctmdiereil. I would further recommend 
 him tohaveconimuincaticm with Mr. Klliott, sothat 
 he may get the api)roval and endorsation of Mr. 
 Klliott. If the clause was so crude and unsati.sfa<!- 
 tory when it emanated from my hands and appeared 
 upon the Order paper in my name, I cannot under- 
 stand liow it could have improved so very much hy 
 emanating from the luiiids of the .Minister of .Jus- 
 tice. I suppose the organisations of trade and lahor 
 nre very honest and sincere and candid, and I should 
 judge the Minister would do well to reconsider 
 the matter, and see whether the clause merits the 
 approval of .Mr. Klliott. 
 
 Mr. ULAKK. I read that correspondence, and 
 I must say I formed tlie con<'lnsion that the real 
 opinion of .Mr. Elliott was that it was not the 
 clause that was crude, hut the hon. memher for 
 Klgin. 
 
 Ottawa :-Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the Queen's Most E.xcellent Majesty. 
 
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