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SPEKCfi DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS — BY — Hon. EDWAED BLAKE, M.P., ON — THURSDAY and FRIDAY, 18th and 16th APRIL, 1880. (From the Officml Report of the Debutes.) Mk. BLAKE : I shall endeavour to bring forward tlio amendment of wliich I Lave givisn notice, in the spirit whidi my hon. friend opposite indicated as correct in the opening portion of his remarks notwithstanding his failure to show that spirit in the course of his speech. I cannot agree with the hon. gentleman in the view that this (piestion is to be de- graded by its discussion as a party ques- tion. We hear a good deal of that sort of thing when one party takes a line ot argu- ment inconvenient to the other party. Those who atloj)t that position, in effect condemn the institution of party al- together. They seem to argue that legiti- mate [arty (juestions are such only as are inferior, or of small magnitude ; and that great questions should be handled on some other and higher principles. If so, what is the ju.stiti cation for party at all t But they do not carry out their view to its legitimate result xn any aspect ; for a moment later the hon. gentleman him- self saiil that there was a most important, a most vital question — the so-called Na- tional Policy — which he rejoiced was made the battle ground of party. I do not know any reason why we who claim to be as true Canadians as the hon. gentleman — we who have just as great a stake in Canada as he has, we who have our interests here, we who are just as proud and just as hope- ful and trustful of the futui-f; of this coun- try, if only j)rndence shall yuide her des- tinies, as the hon. gentleman can be — why we, the Lil)eral party, should not be free to express our united opinion as to what the interests of our country demand ; and it is because, in our opinion, it is de- sirable that a postponement of the Western Section of the Pacific Railway should take place, that I i)ropose to place my amend- ment in your hards. The line of address adopted by my hon. friend obliges me to go a little more minutely into what I may call the antiquities of this question than I had intended. 1 must now advert to these antiquities a little more in detail than I would have don(>, not so much to discuss them in their ])aity aspect, or to ascertain the extent to which ench party has become committed, one way or another, not so much to a.scertain who was right and who was wrong in the past, not so much with a view to recrimination as to determine what, on the whole, has been the settled policy of Parliament on the subject of increasing the burdens of the people on account of the Pacific Kail- way. It was on the 1st of April (a fitting day), in the year 1H71, that hon. gentlemen oi)posite, then as now controlling ])ublic aflairs, carried an address of this House, praying that British Columbia might be united with Canado, on a stipulation to be in- olu(lf(l in (1i(( Terms of Union, that tin; Pacilir Uailwiiy .should Ic coniinonccd witliiii two vt'iirs and Ihiishcd in tt-n years. At tliiit btijiulalion of the Terui.s of Tniou tlie Opposition, and otlier lion, ineuihi'is not in their lank.s, expres.'-ed an lionrst, a j,'tMUiino alarm. Tlie Term.s of Union were helieved to Ik- jirodiijal in all their a.speetss, and niinou.sin partieidar, with refen'nee to the IJailway .stipulation. The seheiue met with earnest oi)p(sition on the pait of many not IielongiiijL,' t(< the Liheral party. Then; weie .several divi- Kioiis upon it, and in one of these it neaily nu-t ils fate, tiie majority which served it lieintjoidy ten. My lion, frit.'ud from Dundat', a .supportei' of the Adminis- tration, moved that amendment which wont to post|i(eople. Tht! hon. the ]Minist(.'r of J^iilways asserts now, but i deny, that the Terms of Ifnion were in form and fact niodilied bv that resolution. During tla; del'ate, an hon. member of this J louse (.Sir Antoine J)ori()ii) moved an Address to Her Majesty praying her to iiiciirjioiate the vesohition into tlu; Terms of Union. That motion was siipprirted by the Liberal party, iait was dtfeated by the votes of hon. gentlemen i pposite, who iiisiste which would cost us iiothi\»if. This was the second Parlia- mentary declaration against increased luxation fur tliis oliject. The (lovern- mcntjin 1 S72, chartered a Oompany which depositml a million of ntouey iis security for the construction of the road. Suhso (juently the (>jm;iany, wliich was de- ]iendent on the raising of fonsign capital tor its fcuocefi.s, found that it could not obtain that eitpital without moditied conditions, and asked for hetter t'-riuH, whicli the Govffrninent refused. It then proposed to Burrender the charttu-, and receive hack the million hard cash, which it had deposited in order to .secure tho fulfilment of its contract, and so sure were the Administration that they coidd u»ake a l)etter bargain with others, or so kindly diii|)osed were they towards that particular Com])any, that they accept(ul t he surrender of the charter, and returned the money that had been deposited. They met tlie House shortly after, in the fall of 1873, and they had alrearo8ccution of that r.iilway, and thus to carry genient made witii tho I'rovince of liritish ('oluml>ia. A nieasuie for that purpose will b« submitted for your consideration." What kind of measure? Circumstances to which, after the tone taken by the hon. irentleman, it wouM bt' ill bred to allude, pr(!Vented the now jiroposition from l)eing brought down. The rcii,'n of the ffentlenu-n wlio promised that new ^■chem(( siii'dfiily came to a termination. It is very W(!il known, however, that the now idea was not in fact a new idea, that the idea of the First Minister, as he stat(!(l |tulilicly in the county of Lennox in 1873, always had been the same, nauuily, that the work should b(! constructed as a (loTennnent work, and that it would, it' he hail been in Ottawa dnriiig the [Session in which the arrangenu'Ut li;ul been made, liiiv(> been so undertaken ; l)nt the pressure of tho Op- position had bei n so groat that his col- leagues had yielded, and for their action he admitted Ik; was resj>onsible, though his own views remained the .same, that the work should l)e couiitructed as a Cov- erinnent work. Then what was the new plan which has never seen the light 1 It must have been a measure for construc- tion by tho Government in ac- cordanct* with the opinions of its chief. It WIS to be .something dif- ferent from the old jdan. What other difference could there be ] This j troves that tho cry of change of policy is not sincere. The new measure to be brought down must have been a change fiom con- struction byacomf)any to construction by thr^ Government. There is no other alter- native, The Government resigned and tho hon. member for Lambtou assumed the position of First Minister. In his published address to the electors of Lamb- ton, which stated the Ministerial policy on which the elections were held, my hon. friend declared that the bargain which had been made under the auspices of the late Government was one which could not be fulfilled. He stated that it would not do to commence the construction of the road until the country had been thoroughly surveyed, and that it would not do to prosecute the constructi(Ui fkuster than the nisources of the country would justify. He t'urtheriu(jre declared that application would lie made to liritish Columbia for a relaxation of t.h« tcniis wliicli limi. j,'t'ii- th'iucii oppii-itd had iiniioM-d uimii the couiitrv ; and loi sm h iiii aii!iiiu. 'Jiic jtresiiit I'irst iMiiiislerdt!- liouiiced ihih us ii lirmih ul" I'uith with IJiitish t'oluinl)ia, entitliii-,' her to secede. So ililierciit wc'ie Ins views iVoiii tliosi^ now ndv;iiu"td liy the hoii. .Ministei- of UailwavH. Sliortly after the eleetions, and after I had hft tho (Jovi-rnnient, a gputh-ninn, forineily u niendier of tliis House (Mr. Kdj^ar), vas sent to I hit ish Colnniliia witii a view of ne^^'otiatinj,' with that I'rovinue for a rehixation of tlie terms. Tiie jirojiosition-s were rejected or n( t accepted Ity tlie Oovernment of British ('olinnhin, and were withdrawn Bometinie i^ liie montli of June. i\Iean- time tin* t^ession had Vieen held, and ii new I'acitic iJailway Act had lieen intro- duced. Tiiis second Act recited expressly all the previous resolu- tions a^'.iinst tlie increase of taxation. It recited tiuit tlio taxation had bi't'ii, to some extent increased in order to meet th(^ oMii,'ations of the Dominion, and declared that it was pi'oper to provide for tlie construction of tho road as rajiidly as the work coukl t>e accomplished without furtiier raising; the rate of taxation ; and, the former scheiue having failed and it lieinj,' inipossilili' now to assume that the roail could he cunstructid hy means of a company, power was giv* n hy the (iov- ernment to huild sections as a (iovern- ment work ; hut the avowed and stated policy of the Administratiru was to use that power only fur the purpose of doinj,' some parts of tiie work in advance of the comj)letion of the surveys for the through line; and it has heen repeatedly explained, hy my in n. friend, tho niendjcr for Lamb- ton, that his intention was, as soon as the surveys were completed, to submit the whch; of the nmd to tender, on a land and money basis, the contractors taking over, as Ciisli on account, the works mean- time executed l)y the Government. It was a scheme devised to make pi'ogress where, and so far as progress could be nnide consistently with the resolution against increased taxation. The Min- ister has com|ilained that there was no reiteration of tlie declaration that the road shoulci bo built only by a company, but there was contaiiieil in the Act a j'ower to do the work by mt-aiiM of a ccin- iianv. At any rate it was unnecessarv to leitriate that. .My bidief is that it would 'have been contrary to tlie policy which the present First Minis- ter believed to be sound when ho announced his views in l.iennox, in li"^7.'h J maintain that, by that Act, which re- ]ieate(l and re-enacted the old resolutions, and declared it was proper to proceed only consistently with tlu! provision against increased taxation, there was a reiteration of the old railiamentary policy, then rcatliimed for the third time, that th" road w.is not to bo constructed on any plan which wouhl causes increased taxation. I well remember that tlie lion, member for Victoria, IJ.C, (Mr. DeCoa- mos) objected to the introduction of thai piovision into that Act, becau.se lie con- ceived it would bn in deiogat'on of the bond, the fulHIment of which he so much desired. In IHT"), during tho recess, British Columbia having aj>peaIod to Kngland, Lord <'arnarvon oU'ered his good ollices. and he suggested certain terms, to which, as far as they could, the tiovern- mont agreed ; the statement of the ( SoTern- nient being that they would do their best to carry them out, astheywerc! not contrary to tho spirit of any Parliamentary reso- lution, or the letter of any enactment. The Cfoverninent subsequently dedaied that this exjiression was designed to indi- cate that tlu-y were not intending to at- tempt to transcend the taxation'resolution. it is contended that they could do so, and that they did in fact so bind the country by their action, although Parliament never continued it. I altogether deny that the (.'xeciitive Governinent has any general or implied authority of a nature so extensive ; but were it olherwi.se, no such authority could be implieil iu the face of a distinct determination by Parliament in an adverse sense ; nor can any case bo imagined in which there could be a inore decisiv(i dechu'ation by Parliament of its ]iolicy that there should be no increase of taxation for the building of this Railway; and conscfpiently a more clear limitati(.)n upon any cucli supposed implied executive powers as are s iggested. The Minister says that under the Carnarvon terms there was an agiee- ment to build the Islaixl Bailway, by which .*;4,000,()00 were added «o the cost wo th( tha in aj) opi til! ic Act a f H coin- i'HSiuy to llfut it to (lu- Miiiifs- of lllC will litit ll'' KCCMIH to llU\i' f li- ne in is:;]. liicli le- lulutions, proceed irovision ' was !i iiiieiitiiry iril time, iistiuctecl increased tlu' lion. ■. DeCoa- I of tliak : he coll- II of the ^ so much recess, lealod to 1 liis good teiiiis, to (.iovern- p ( lOTern- tlieir liest t contrary tury rt'Ko- nnctiiient. declaied 'd to inili- ing to at- esoliition. do Ko, and e country 'arlianient lier deny ; lias any a nature prwise, no ii|tlioil in rminatiou -,(> heuKe ; I in which leclaratioii hat there on for the isequently any niich rers as are that under an agree- ilway, liy to tl'.e cost I golicii lliu' Ills own (Idxcijiment in IS"-"' iiaii iMnic to tlic di t'-riniiiiit iviu >'...\{ the ft'iii.iinis of t!ie iuidw.iv slimild Ih! at l']-(juini.il(, and tid-. di t'Tinihation, if adli< cd to, )ieco."'Hanly iuvohcd the con.iniciion of the IslaiH; Kailvay, and ind; 1 d of fpiiier far mow e.\tc;i.sive ami wistly \vork>>. I Jiarl taki u ociasitju in the fall if 1H7I to d( dare my individual views Oil the hidject of t!.e raeilic Rail- way. 1 then stated thai i ihought the fidliiment of (he iigrtcna ji; wiih JlritiKh t)oluh.l)ii imji..^:,iljlr ; iii:;t unlesH fdit* eho.se to he reasonuMe and to agree to a rela.Niitioii of (he terms, T s-aw no hope of perli'iniing them ; and (i.at, if she in- sisted on sece^^ion, as the consequence of the i»on-fnl(ilnit i'.( of (lie terms of Union, r, for oi;e, V, ;is I repa!cd to say, " let her go,'' rather (han ruin the c.juniry in the atiempt lo piiform tJie im[)u,i&il>le, I have never diMiigid that o|iinii.ii. and each suc- ceeding _>ear has str<'ngtlu ik d Uiy view n.s to tlu' wisdom and sou,l(inl^^a of such a decision. liuring tho Sensiou of lt>77i, when tlic^ Carnarvon corresponl believe weie such us coniii be I'uily eairied out consistently with tli.' (n.xalion re-:oiiition, (o which I for one wr.s letei mimd (o adhere. The Dill sui.eeeih il in tlrslhmse, iait it fiiiled ill (he vSeiiute, and tlie nsult was tliJit the s'Uiction of I'arli.mient waw iefu-,ed to (hat t.ssential part of (h Car- narvon terms. At the clo.se of (hat Sea- sion then the w lioI(> (pip.-,tii,ii was open. The iurtmgenient had failed. I'ariiament had declined lo amli( rise an essential part of the terms ; fultiluni.t of (he tei ins had thus becouie impossilile, e.i.d it be- came nece.ssory (o reronsid>'r tho whole maUer. I believe that everyone to-day coiicuix in this re.suk ; at any rate 1 do not observe that the ( love exine.ssly, as it must in fact be, suljeet to the sanction of this Parliament. This undeistanding was carried out by the )\!inu(oof ('y that minute, referring to the former ne- gotiutious,the(.»overniuent declared iia fol- lows : — " It must he (li.stiiu'Lly borne in ii i»il that, every sttj) in tlic iiei()"intioii9 vas ne pti.-tarily prcibtatid on .umI fub^ect to the cniKlitions of tlio I'caolutic'ii of llS71.pa*.se(l ooi»icm|)0'aui;ous!y M'itii tlie a(l(ij)ti(iii of the terms of Union witli liritiih ('(iliau'iiia, bul;B-L'(|uently uiiiicUd iu tlie Act of i87'2, ami iL'-ciiacted (^It'-r a lariio ad- dition had h^-vn mn'ln to the rate of taxation) ill tho Act of 1874, that the public aid .•should consist of Kiich suhsidy in inouey, r.ot iiicreaB- iiiii the then ixi.stinj.; r»(u of taxation, as I'ar- li&ineut f-luai'.d dctoiniiiie. This dettTinination not to invcdve the courtry in a hojiclcsa Inirden of d^bt it) sustained by public opinion every- where throughout the l)oniini«n, and must necessarily coutiol tho action of the (joveru- nient, and it cannot be too clearly undergtood that an/ agreoinonta ok to j -arly exinnditure, and ai to uoniiiletion hy a fixed tiino, must be •ubjact to tlie condition, thricr recorded in the Journals of I'arliamcnt, that no further increafe in the rattr wf taxation nhnll be required in order to their fulHlnicnt. The sanction of I'arlia- munt to the conntruction of the ptopnted rail- way from KBfjuimidt to Nftnivimo was necewarily a condition iiroccdent to thu commencement of the work. The other important features of the arrangement, namely, tlio linntation of tha time fur the comjiletion of a certain ]K)rtion, and the fipoeitication of a yearly expenditure, were (Itemed to he within tiio meaning of the Act of 1874, cuhject, of course, to the cor.di- tion alreaily mentiomd, which was ri-ferred to in the minute of Decemher, 1874, when the Govornment expressed ' a willingness to make tliese furtiier couieHsions ' * as the con- ccsxiiii.s >ugi,e~ alleged we were more tightly bounil than l>y tho.si; of (he Union, he declared to-night in one part of his speech that, we ^s•ero obliged by them to tlo what? to finish by 181)0 '( No ! he says ho does not hold himself bound to do that. To s[.end !i?2,000,{)U0 a year ? No! he says practical ohtuitiing think all ^uiuHt it ; MiuiBtcr (Uolai'ing Dinger for 111 the fuU cry goo<] contained t that th« Mieil nior* spc many ',, than hy <7(!, fully deelared its meanin;,' ; it had taken its stand, it hiul declared that it woidd not recede '^from or aliaiiHon the I'arliainentary policy of the tiow increase of taxation. And tlu' vote to winch I liav(^ alluded, wa-<, uinler these ciri;un\ stajices carried, not by a party majority, but by a united House. Tin- vote was 14'.» to 10 ; anioiiL,' the majority were a larL,'(> number of mend)ers and supporters of the present ({(iNeinmeiit. I linesidcs many others; in all forty-two, out of the snu\U contin![;ent which, at that time represented the Tory party in this Hou.se. We were on that occasion nearly unanimous. In that year, 1S7G, low^ after the makinj,' and failure of the Carnarvon terms, and after the (lovernm<'nt had fully declared its meaning,' and i*^;; policy, this Housi; was almo'rt unanimous in favour of the view that the country was entitled to say, and was bound to say, and we did in the name of the country say that the ar- ran''cments for the construction of the roatl sliou Id 1 )e such as tl le i('soinv(>s oi the country would permit without in- creasing the existing rates of taxation. This is ths fourth vole recorded by Par- liiimeiit in tln> same sense. N( 1 cli um that T have proved that ap,\rt from the serious, the dicailttd, f hope not the fatal error of 1;^71, in declining ro engraft upoti the terms of Union this liniKation — an error for which the Liberal purty is not resiioiisiijle, bccansi; it did its iiONt to withsritamling the (Carnarvon terms that this road should iu)t be so constructed aH tl ncicessitate uny increa.so of taxation. What hiippMied after the Session of I'^Tl't 't The surveys hud been prosecuted; .some contracts were let, sonm progre.ss was mmle. The Session of 1S77 arrived. Was there any proposal from the Opposi- tion declaring that we should proceed faster with tin' work, anything to idter the view taken in 1S7(; j Nothing I The Session of 1S78 followed with the same result, m)r did aught occin- to shake the d^lilterate, solemn and repeatedly allirmed declaration of I'arliament on this subject. I'ut, nu'antina ,fintlier progiTss was made, and to soni'' en(iuiries tiie (lovtrnninit answered that it hoped to lie able shortly to advertise for tenders for tin? wiiele work on the lund and money ba.sis, sub- ject to the ap|>roval of riirliameiil. It was the policy of the (!ovenin;ent at the earliest nionieut at which the condition of the surveys would jiermit, to t.^ke that st(>p,and .so to give a fair trial to tiic plan, the only plan by which the road could be constructed in any short time without in- cri'iising the r.ite (tf taxation ; ain' if that trial failed.it was obvious the \\hole (jues- tion must be opened afresh for con.-idera- tion, and that it would lio the duty of the ( JovernmiMit to consider of a n(>w policy. Well, an advert isemint was i.s- bued in May, lfS7S, I believe, for tend(aM for the whole; line upon the land ;in\\. I'lit it w< ijU'-Mtiou unlil thi' Si'^si'ii of \^7'.\ 'rh'>:i, iiidfcl, t! crn wan a i'!iMn:^i\ 'Jl;'> iu(w OuVi-rniM nt liavin;.;' Im'cu foviH t! in ill" uicantimi', tlm jriMud ) loji.isiil iif iiut SoHsiou wan liroiLdit forv.-.irl, '!'!»( hnn. ;L.;<'ntl«'niim (Sii- t'harlr.-s Tupiirr) says, lio is goin.^ to .1,'ivi' u-4 auot!i( 1' Ii.ilcli of rcsn]u(Inn.'4, aUif 111' r» ad V8 vinu' of tli«';o ln\'ii-llown icHolutinns !;(> liroui.';!'.! d'iwn Ir.st Session. Tlicy indi'Mtc tin.' i-iinraoti'r '•( the woi-k in llio viow of tlit> lion. ."Mithnnm, Iho rflali^us ni" tl.is coiiiitry as wi'll a.; tli'- ivlatinnf) of the I'jiijiiro to Uio su-jcoss fully jn'OM'c'U'cd. The iinst declares that an cu!,^;'.;^pni("nt \,'>va (utorod into with Britisli t'ohuuhia, hu!, it says nr.thi;i,i; of any onijagoinciit with the Inijifiial (lov- frnnirnt or Lord C.irnarvon, now so much talkt'd ahout, to oonstrui't the road Not, howevor, hy ar.y (ipciTn'd time ; on tho (.'ontrnry, I IJnd I'lo (rov(M'nnioiife hy thi.i resolution d'-clavingtlic (.'outi-act to ho. Uiat the lino slunild ho eonstrudod witli all i-.r.K!tica1ilo spocl. Norct, t!:fr(' is a decl.iration th:it tlio Canada Pacitic IJail- wiiy will ho a L'wat Tnijicrlal hi<,diway, and so forth. TIk n (h'rc is adcolar.ition ahout iho unprofcvh-ntcd Htatr- of enforced idleness of tho British working elaasfs, and (ho jio'-sihiiify of a sclienie of relief on a lHrq;o lioale heir.,,^ found indi.spcn.'salde to alievialo tho destitution. Tho lion, gentleman, not copt.-nt wiih talcinir ehtu-'p of tho Kiill'erinr,' thoFi.sauds of {'aniid":n:S, and rtiiev)!!!.' hy his legishition all the misfortunes umier which o\ir ] r.or 4,000,000 arc laijouriiijj, in the largentss of liis Inart, anl tho tint;.^niiii'!(' of hin resour.'i's, took eharxe of tli" ii'icnijihiyo I piiorof Knifhind ; and hy his wir, and that of tho Iiii|ieri:il ( io\ I'rniaeiit to^'i'ther, thi< j^reat selienit.' of outdoor rehif ho iur outdoors an tho North- West — w.ih tu l»e c.irried out for tho relief of t!iedi'stit\iti.in of tlie sullerini,' |ioor in (Jroat I'rilaiii. 'I'lien Ih" resolution intioilueed tho con- si met ion of I lie Call id ill' I I'aeirh- Ilailway, which was to aH'orl iiiiiue li il^i ("ii]ih)y- luent to :i vast iiuiiiher of wurknii n, open up vast (raei i of fertile liiid for occupa- tion and tliiis form a r>','.dv oillet for tlin ovnrpnpuIal''(| jK)'>ito to di cide th:U I'lsipiimait should h.» t'lo ter- minus in IS";}? That is (he ]ir; Meiii, tho arithmotieal calculition, whi' h I shall d|siro tho hon. ^'on!hni.i'i to luiswer. Tlie hon. gentleman hui^'hs at I;. Wo know that whenever the lion, "iivfe IMiuist.'r heai-s an awkward question h;^ ti;rns it oir v.ith a lau'^li, hut it v.li! !'• admitted that tho hon. mcmher for Lunhton, and the House and tho country knew nioro iii 1878 ahout v>hat should ho tho terminus than any one could know in 1^73. Therefore, if it was not pn-maturo to select Esouimult in 1^'7's i^ could not hn premature to select another t Mininus in ISVS. Then there is a resolution tint it is ne(!essai-y to keep e'ood faitli with Ijriti.sh Columhia ; and then there is a provision, the sting of wliich is in the t.sil. The lith resolu- tion declares that the Government bo IK' I hiH ii'lll|ilnVO I , MIkI lllllt '.< i' K,i» !jU' S>M'\ I » III) (li'.stituli.ui I 1-riliiiii. 1 tli<- (on- • llii! .viiv, ■! ("Iljlloy- 1)11 II, i'i(iiiii A 1.1 tl... ii'.'c:t>:l to l!il«} ito to jA thi! tcr- lit' ur; 'dcui, hi' !i I .shall to iMiswor. ,t i;. Wo licii. "irxt [ucsiiou lia it \vill 1)0 iciriljor for tho country t should Ito lid know in Itni nature it could not r t.^nninns resolution kiH'p o'ood ; and then slii,^ of 1th rcHoln- rimiont bo uiitho' ist'd to iiiiiko fiiilln-r rxjiloratioiiH, iind to niter into iKnitr.ietH fur eiiisduct- iti^ a portion of iho line in Colninliiu not cxeeediiij,' l2'i iiiih'.s in li'ii;,'th witlioiit tile faiihor K.uiclioii of P.iiliiinii nt. Mere for th" liiMt time do \\t' find ilr> [I'liry of ii'.itldiii;; a railway iii ISfili'l. ( 'olinuWiii aH a < »ov«'rnuietit work l>roii;;lit »lo\vii l»y the ( Iii'.cnini'iit for tliv' eoiisidenifion of i'.nliaiie'nt and ndoptcd hy I'.irli.iiiient, VV^'ll, on \\h it VMS it tli.lt this p.'ul yf the (}o\ernineiit |> >liiy was lt;iii'd f Onwliat was it th.ti l!;e ilouso was asked to hurry into an en,<{u^,'enn>nt to coinineneo, hh a (ii)s*rnnn'iit vv.)ik, \'2r> miles in I'riiidi < 'oIiiin')i,t J Win it Ujioii Liomelliiii;^' old or up 111 souietiiiii^' nvx I \Va« it ii|ion soiMi'Lliiii.;- fresh { Ye.s. The 1. ill. ;,' 'ntlii- 111. 1.1 poinii'l out, that there wen- huiidredi of thoiiiinds (f uii'MiipIoyed poor in Ku'^dand. lie i^'fcrr.'d to tli.>ir iiiis'-ry uul d.'.-liluii 1)1. he said it w.iuld Iim iii-ros- K.ary lur the l']ii;;l!:di (Joveruinent to pro- vidi) .s inie iiirKH for tl."ir r.-liiif. !!■• Jiointed to whiit ho was Jl^oiu;^ to do in Kii;,diind. lloMi ho and his coIle.i,::;iies iloehirel that the .seheiiu' pOHsewed cert.iin clainenL ; of sucr.ess. The ilrst 7tIiijis((M" declared it must and would siiccod. He Kixid tliat Iht-y would f.-o home ; that tlijy would enlist tho Kyinji.ithlis of tho Impf>r'i.l 'loveiTini.'i*- ; ii! 1 obtain the co-operation Trhich they Holiciti5(l, and which this lIou^•:o au tliori.sed th"m to obtain, tho Ii.ii:,ri;il aid. by guar.iuteu or othorwi:,!-, to- wards the cou.struction of lliin line. Tliey went home, siiul, like other ]ie )pie who have ^'une hoiuf?, they came b;ifk again. iJut, Sir, allliou^'Ii we heaivi a /:;roat deid of some matters iliey transacted, ulUiou^di the Finano'; Min- ister's loan, and tho Jilii.'.ier of llailw.iy's piiiviiasos of r.iils wcrt> told to u.s over .-uul over again, until we got more tired than ever of discussing tho rate of intero:-it npon loans and the pric ^ of steel-rails — aUhough, I say, tlevsc proofs of liuancial and coaimei'oial ability wcr.; discussed (id nunsiuiin, not a word wa.^ heard upon tho great mission — upon tho priuciji.il point. What in the world is tho diil'erence whether we gi t on<;-haif P'l' coat, moi'o or less on a loan of a few laillion dollars? What iu thi; world is the dilforence whether wo Iniy steel r.iils ut .«;21-. 10 or i?25.40 coinpanvl wiih the other question 1 Very important thiiig.s both; liut \v!iit in the w /il i do we euro about theso ipH'sliolis compare I witli tlliit of o''t.iiniiig u i.oillid lilul s ilid Imsis of Inijifrial aid for the coiiil.riic!'o:i of the Canadian I'.i- ilio Mailway I W h»iv«« h ardiigre.u deal of the mint n-id the anisu and the cviniin, lait of the w.'igliMer iinlter., of the law very litilo indeed. .N'ow, why this silence i V.'e have elide., voui'ed to put a iiueslioii , or I .v.', I en- d' avouiel to dr.tw out the lion, -ontle- maii on tho Address, and Knb+Mjn- iitlv by a tiue.-iiion, but t-iill there w.is jllence, Wc aui'ioiis-d ihe (Jovcrniu.'ntto proceed to Knglaiid ti* aceoiiipllsh ani.it impor- tin'. work, b it n it a w;ed ii tol I of tiie r.'sult. S aii.Uhi.ig, iieU'cd, v.-^h told. I (Vi, ye^. We asked wlu'th'n* my nrraiige. meiu had been m.ide, any pnniii o hud' bi.'v'ii given, and wo w u'c toll t'l .e hid not. Some ]ir.'.son as'cel tic same ipif.;li,.n ill the Imperiil rar'.ianient, ami the answer w.l.i the simo iUit, to night, wo ar.) told , that these .Ministens at homo are «lip!oiii,kt!c, that ilieiv w.iH in elfect a secret umh-: standing, that they were deeply intere.^te 1 — O, sf) dcejily i.itercsted— in thl.-t mutter. The !. Minister i.^ jnow abla to .stato this fict, p.rha|is— may I ventnrn 1 1 .-aig^ t -—with greater contM'nco than he would have done b-fore tho lit" elections. lie says, in'leed, that tho Jjiitisli (loy- enuneut did not want to b.^ handi- capped at those election.s by any promise. Dut, Sir, if this scheme for rrlii-\ ing un- employed J'ritona by sending tliein out to our North -We.st'w.H to b- an a 1 van- tage for tho Ih'itish j.eople, why should it bo unpopular! Wiiy not procl.xim it on every bust ing.s ? Why not maku it a battle cry iu tlie clectioaa ? Jbit, the hon. gentlcnuu .say.-J that would not do ; t!;e jieople wer.; not to know. It was like a cer- tain arrangement which was agreed to in this piirtof the world, wltli reference to this name Pacific Tinilv.ay, which "should ba kept ipiict until after the elections." It \\ now, however, alleged that there was a liargain. Well, it semis to me that llie h';n, geiitlem u.'s pi uis in England, und.^r these circum-stmces, failed. It was because the lion, gentle- I man found that it Wijuld l>e nsel -ss for I him to comiuunicato oilicially that he 10 II lins iiothint,' to j^lvo us. It was beca\is(3 his informal and coiiti- dential coniinunications resulted un- favouraltly, that as Hir Mieliael Hicks- Beac-h says, there was nothing put on jiap(>r, and t.lio hon. gontlonion came hack lierc witii no more assurances than tliey had lipffire they loft Canada. This we kno w beciiuse the hon. gentleman has made a Btatcincnt to us on the subject, ho has told us what liis expectations are. He has told us the resolutions he is going to bring down. There is to bo a resolu- tion modifying the ])lan for the sah; of the lauds. Instead of selling them at $■_* an ai re ail r >uud, they havf; adopted anotlier plan, .uid want to modify thi.s res(^lutitin acrordingly. Hut we hear nothing a'lMHit further resolutions touch- ing Imperial aid. Still, the hon. gentle- man says he had many cnn- fetiMices with politicians «nd capi- talists, and till' I'"inance Minister made complete arraiigeuieiits for ell the funds that may be re(piir«d for the oomplelidii of the Paciiic Ilailway from sea to sea, so that, as fast as he wants it, he can get the money, jirovided we give him authority to rais« the taxes required to pay principal and interest. lie says also that ttie prusjiPtt of an Imi)erial guar- antee from Mr. Forster, if he is to be the new Colonial Secretary, are tjuite as good as weie the pr()sp(>ets of a guarantee by the l?eacons(ield (lovcrnment. That may be so, and I dare say it is so ; but the reason given by the hon. gentleman was a speech which ]\lr. Forster hud delivered at the Cohudal Institute. My lion. frit-Mul's meuuiry is of that character nf which memories often are. He remem- bered what was agreeable, and forgot what was }iaiul'ul. lie remeniliered w.'dl ]\Ir. Ferstei's diplomatic suggestion, that " he was not sure that it n)igl)t not be advisable for the Government to be very liberal in these matters," and he turjis that into a promise. But as to the qtihl pro qui), Free-trade with liritain, which Mr. lAirster suggests the hon. gentlejuan utterly forgot all about that. Mr. Foi'slcr says that the liberality must not be all on one side ; that it is not fair to ask the Mother Country for assistance, .and tlieu to throw obstacles, by nmins of I'l-otec- tion. in the w;iv of their disi)osin!' of thi'U- nianutactures in the Colonies. Well, I will say, franklv, that if tho arrangement for aid from the Imperial fJovernment should turn out to be one for a guarantee oidy, I am not at all cei'tain it would be a blessing to this country that the guarantee should be obtained. It is true the ginirantee would enable us to raise money at a lower rato than that at which we aie raising it. It is true, al.so, that it might enable us to rai.se money which wo could not raise at all without the guar- antee, lint it will not hf Ip us to pay tho money we borrow ; and I do not think it always a convenient thing to have facilit'os for borrowing money, un- less we see also that there arc! commensurate facilities for I'cpay- ing it. The cxijlorations which tho (Jovennuent took authority to make, re- sulted in a report by tho Chief Engineer, in which he suggested that they were? so fur favouraltle to the northerly I'outo as to reiuler it ini|ii'oper to commence at that tinui construction in IJritish Colum- bi;i, and expedient to make further ex- plorations. The (jovernment, howevei', decided advers'ly to that view, and determined to linally adopt the routt; to Burrard Inlet. Now, even with all the haste thnt was used in reaching this decision, it had bi-come impossible at that time to fulfil tho arrangements, on tho basis of which Parliament had been asked to authorise the letting of these contracts without its sanction. That basis was, tluit the work should l>e commenced in Britis'h Cohnnbia, in 1879. But tenders were not called for till near the end of 1S79. The iirst contracts were not let till Decembei" of that year, and the last I was not let until the lOth February, ! 1880, two days beforethe meeting of this Parliament; so that, for several reasons, the grounds upon wdiich the hon. gentle- man had asked Parliament to give him special authority, had failed. They hail failed in this, that the construc- tion could not be commenced \nitil after Parlianu'nt was in S(;ssion, and, thfM'i'fore, there was no ground for the action; they had failed in this thitno incf)nvenience or delay would bi^ causcid by waiting for the assi.Mit of Parliament. Another ground on which the authority jfiven l)v Parliament ouuht not to havo lie(Mi exercised, is tins: the House was led into iho adoption of the scries of rciolutions in which this authority is 11 o Iiiiporial Ixi Olio for t all certain country that ned. It is enable us lower rato [lie rai.sing it might which we it the giiar- i to jiay the not think it to have loncy, ini- lat thon^ fur ripay- which the n make, re- '[' Engineer, 'v wvvc; so rly I'oute as nunenee at tish Coliini- furtlier ex- t, h urhing thin .ible at that Its, on the been asked se contracts basis was, inioiK-ed in ]>ut ti'iiders the end of vcre not lot I the last Felji-nary, ting ot" this al reasons, ion. g(!ntle- give him They had eoiistruc- comnienced in Si.'ssioii, ground for this tliitno 1 be caused .'arliamont. le autliority not to have i louse was le scries of authority is contained on the statement made by the Government as to the certainty of their guccess in obtaining Imperial aid. They ■wholly failed in that ; the basis for the authority disappeared, and, therefore, the aourse they pursued in using the aiithority was in this as well as the other parti- culars censurable. Again, the report o the Chief Engineer justified, and in fact rendered [iroper further investigation be- fore fixing on the route. This contract which they have let without the sanction of Parliament will reach, according to the estimate, $1», 100,000, and with the rolling. stock, rails, etc., the lino will cost certainly not less than §10,000,000, ac- cording to the tenders. That is the esti- mate, 1 observe, from the lion. Minister's Btatement, which the Chiet Engineer now makes with reference to the contract. The lion. Mini-ter observed that he haf obtaining rates." This was the thorough, exhaustive, minute and detailed survey ; this was the accu- rate information which tho hon. gentle- man got before he let the Yale Kaniloops contract 1 Some of the estimates are simply roughly approximate ! (Jthers are merely conjectural and are placed for the purpose of obtaining rates ! As to the eastern contracts, if I am i ightly informed, there was no information of any material consequence in the hon. gentleman's hands which was not in the hands of the hon. member for Lambton before ho left ollirc. Mr. PLTTMB: Section 15 / Mh. PiLAlvE: If my hon. friend will allow me to continue, he will .soon have an oiiportunity to enliven tho ifo'.isc with one of his short speeches. It may bo p(n'mitted to a person who has not gone over the ground, who has not eviMi made a preliminaiy location measurement, who has not even made a conjectural estimate of tho items, to makn a conj(!cture in the gross, based upon former ex- perience, based on former reports, based upon what is kno^rn of o'Jier sec- tions of the I'ailway, and from what has happened as to other roads, bused on the general experience of the woi-'.d in ri'fi r- ence to estimates of this descri|ition ; and my conjecture is that this road is as likely as not, instead of costing $IO,00(),0()0 to cost $12,000,000 or more. Tins contract", however, provide, as tho hon. gentleman as said, that the (jovernment may suspend operations if the vote is expended at any time, or in case tho jiublic interest re- quires, a su.spen.sion of the work, and may in such case cancel itlie contract ; and that in no case will the contractor lie er.- titled to damages by reason of loss of protits, but only to expenses incurred in coun(>ctiou with the collection of material and work already done. The Georgian Bay branch contract was lately cancelled by tlu! (io\ernnient under siiiiihir pro- visions. Tlie hon. gentleman has Ktate(l that he exi)ects the expenditure next year on this work will not exceed .« 1,00(1,000, but, although ]i08sibly u) more than ^^ 1,000,000 may bo' expended th« lirst year, yet it is certain, ac csrding to the estimate forunMJ of ten millions, and if the work is to be carried i: oni nctoiding to the terms of the con- tiiU't, which piuviilcH U)V its toiuplvitiou in five y.ivH, ilia'. ;iii iiveriigf of two iiiil- lioii.s a \K :ii* will U.' r(M|uii td, niitl it' we are goiugti.; caiu'UcI o-iI> .si, (;(;(.),(. UO iiextycar, this int;:;i.-i li.iit, lh<'i-(! will lie a larjier ainouiil f.;j.i;iid(?,l relatively in tlie lo!- lowii.i;' \( airt. lioii^iily, we are iiivoiscd liy tli;-. I-. hliiut. ill nil ii\ciii;.'e e\]Kiuli- ture (1' ^;i,(JU(>,viO(t a ytar i'or tin; next live V'Mw, aii'l n the road ce.st.s 81-,06u,i/0U, ( hen oL', 100,000 a year lur the Kiin.e time will he leciuii^ d. The liDii. gintlciii.Ji lias Kaid that ilie load, \vliii:]i is in li,,) midda; of i)ii;i.sh Culuiu- hia, v.ill 1)0 a pietty f;ood thiii.i,'. It start,;, it is iiiic, at a ])oiiit fruin which the occiui is uecc-s.sihle l.y li.i.dit st.'Hiueis ; ib runs a cuhsidcrahle distame into tiie interior, Ijiit, as i'ar iis I can t-i.^erve, con- fiiderin;,' th(> coiuiitiuii (if tl.c country, it.s ].()) tiiation, its eapaliiiilics for early settl!.i.;ent, thLs may 1 c naid oi it. that it oej^ius novvla ri!, ends noMla:i\', and will serve no earl lily ]iuiiio.;e. I quite agrct! that in the conslriiciioii of the Pac'ilic IJaihvuy as a throu;:!! line, by the Currard Jiilct route, ilus raight have liteu the Iksv jioint to coniiiieni.'e at, but I am si>eakiiig of it as it is. The lion, gen- tleman has prepaied a ina]>, which lie laid , and my hon. friend will se« what a double insult is conveyed in Ui^ laying on the Table a map showing tlie bulk of the Province un fit for settli-ment. Mu. lUJNH'i'IUl: I would like .o ask my hon. friend if he did not liave that map coloured on purpose. Hh. liLAKE: Z.Iy hon. friend no doubt beiioves that I am the only pertjou who v,(ai](l have ventured to|iroiirw sueli a ma]). Jiut it is not my ma|i. It is the map of the hon. .Minister of Railways, who has done the hon. memlier i'or Van- c(ui\(i- "blown." Jt is not to be sup- posed, liowivcr, that all thin white firound is availalile i'or while men. Tlieie i.s a large ]iortion of the laud e\i'n there, which tilt" lioij. the Minister of Hallways, ill theeaily )ioiiion of tjii^ evening, rightly calhd inhi.sjiitabie. r\,(irii(jn thei'.! is a little land capaljle of seitlenient, as the lujii. gentleman ha.s ,^!iid. ^Vt the didta of tiie Kiaser Ptiver, there are some '100,0(11) acres of hind capable of setlle- meid, tlunigh I believe some of ii reijuiies dyking in order to make it useful. East of the Fraser Itiver there are (MO.OOO . acres, or l.OtfO .s a i'ew small detached .settlements at bi sL J^et me read you an extract from the report of Mr. Marcus iSmith, your Assislai)t-( 'hief- Enginecr, made in 1879, and brought down the other day ; lie says : ' rroin tlio. Uivcr Pembiiin we:oitof niii-( 'iiief- M 1 rought v-'Vit poroEs n n!' Viilleys ill «, of this it 1(11- settle- iiie Muiin- i'z.:h ;iiilo of lu- .•'.Dil the 11 f'C wpst, wafsa oil tlie loitt Il>,0(X) iiU'd there 1!;o vhito ie-t<'i;th of .1!), Iiut the 1(1 Biipporta loiiaidtiable .■ind of this L' total ])ro- tliat of an average county In Ontario. (In the huhiiicf! of the (!((.■) imlca the eountry woiilcl not sii])- port a wiiiti! ptniulatiou of iiiDrc tliia ali-w hundreil-i. 'I'liti cent (f eon.stnietiiif: this division of tt'c lino woiill te h-jiivy, i>nib:\l)ly not less than $o(),000,0(X)." Mh. DkCOSMOS : What is the e.xact size of an average county in (.)ntario ! Mk. r>LAKE : I do not know tlie exact size, hut as the, lion, gentleman interrupts nie, I will read thehon. gentle- man's own statement nuule in debate on the subject of this line. It gives some valuable information. Tlu; hon. gi ntle man says this — I read from the Otiicial debutes for 1H77 : " The First Minister had referred to the raluablc laud on Fraser River. As a fact, how- ever, there were not perliaps over 400 sijaaie miles, or 2r)(),0roves, plainly, that they are the second S(!t brought down this Session. The other side had a sort 6f preliminary skirmish on this cpiestion on the motion of the lion, member for North Norfolk, on the land policy of the Gov- ^•riiment. The hon. Fii'st Minister then .said it was inconvenient to discuss the Pacitic Bailway policy of tin; Goveriunent on that occasion ; that this should be post- poned, till the general deliate now going on ; but you will have ncliced that he imniedihie\y proceeded to uiscuss and ex- ]tound it. The hon. gentlf>man declared that the expenditure in connection with the Pacific Railway, up the .'U)th Juii« next, would be about $ir),O00,OO(). W« know that the expenditure up to Dee- ember last, largely exceeded $14,000,000, and I think the estimate of $15,000,000, up to the 30th June, is ])erft;ctly fair. It will be in the memory of the House that lie stated that from .'JOth Jun(( next, th« cxpenditun! would be $10, 000,000 a year for the next two years, and .'5r),0U0,000 a year for tlie following eight year.s. This will make a total expinditure of $C0,- 000,000 to be made ii'ter the thirtieth of tlutie next, or of ,$7"),0(iO,000 adding the .?ir),000,0O() alreaily .sjK'nt. This state- ment was not made recklessly. It was made after dwe (!eliberatiOtli Jun0 JUO. W« i to Dee- t,000,000, ), 000,000, y fair. It iou.so that next, th« )00 a year 000,000 a U-.S. Tliis ■ of $C0,- liilieth ot" (Uling the liia state- It was sot pur- ou of the lo hi^^hest lice Min- ay con- vas liasecl )-day, th« r,iU'H that ^ tlie past i,000,000. lister, or .1 Diillions of over ^'ato esti- estimate to kuow ione. I of these y are on vho have on the jublished There are 1 to build, dy. For i'J3 miles )ody, Mr. ,0-00,000. iLli was of Mr. 130. But hief and :;:ld to '3 miles, miles to i,l)iit the mViGs and ivo road, ifl'erence Dve than suhtnict ]£ so. the part isgrc.iter than the whole. 1 may l)u pennitted to doubt a little whether a large prtncr estimate of hiui- .self and his assistants. The House must not forget too that Port iNFuody is not the tei minus of the; Kailwav. The I'hijjineers .siy that the terminus must be at Coal Harijour, or English Hay. You do. in- (h)ed, reach the I'aciiic S'.'aboard at I'ort Moody, but not a satisfaotoiy terminal harboui'. You must go furthei', and spend another million of dollars to accomplish the other fourteen miles of distance before you see the end of your labours. Hut even supposing it to be our uuhapjiy fate to get no further than Port Moody, and supposing the hon. gentleman's revised estimates to be lealized, I call the attention of the House to the fact that he calculates, himself, on spending )?.30,000,()00 for the western section, and $13,000,000 only, or leis than ono-half the former sum for the whole of the prairie line. The fatal bur- den is still in the west. The hon. gentle- man was right in dealing with the British Columbia, or western section, of this Railway as really beginning at a point east of the Rocky Mountains. But he did not go far enough east. In order to decide what is the true jwiiit of commencement of the western or British Columbia section of the road, you have to decide what is in truth the western end of the prairie road. That point is the com- mencement of the British Columbia sec- tion. I go further than the hon. gentle man. At a point seventy miles west of the longitude of E Imonton, you get to the end of the prairie. It is not necessary, in order to early sel^'Ieraeut, that even as far as that point thv country should be traversed by the Riiihvay. Beyond that point, the Railway si: u ply becomes nece.s- .sarv in view of Bi-itisii Columbia inter- ests, and as a through line; unless, indeed, the outlet of the western prairii- country is to be the Pacitic and not the Atlantic ocean. I take, therefore, the longitude of Edmonton, which is also the point of divergence in case a no:tlierly route shoniil hereaft«r be adopted, as, for preg- ent purposes, the jwint of .separaiion betwetMi tlu) prairie and the ]5ritish Co- lumbia sections, antl my hon. friend Irum Lainbton, uj)on all the inlormation which the orticial documents and (he ['higiiu'crs reports giv(!, added to his own kiu)\vledge, (assuming the continuance of tlie same gradients and curves, and the snuj} stylo of construction an I ecjuipment, v/hich were always intended up to the time he resigned,) esiimates thiit the 25G miles from Ednumton to tha summit would co.ft $y,400,00U, which added to Mr. Fleming's and .Mr. Smith's estimates of over .':<:JG,.")OO,0O0, for the roid from the Summit to the Pacific would givt; a total of over $■15,000,000, as the cost according to the old estimates and old style of construction of what may l>e described as the western section of the Railw.^y. Of course when the hon. gentleman choses to give us the informa- tion which will make it possible for us to judge what style of road he now pro- poses to build ; when he tells us what the curvature and gradients are to be, and the general character of the works and style of the road, we shall bo better able to judge of the correctness of his revised estimates, but he would not even tell us a little while ago, what the estimated cost of e(iui})meut was ; he would merely say it was a light equipment, by which we can judge that this estimate is arrived at by cramping the road very much indeed. It would be very easy to tell, if only it were convenient to let us know, what the estimated cost of the e(piipment is. It is estimated upon the cost in dollars, of so many locomotives, so many freight and passenger cars at such a price. It is included for example in the estimate of $13,000 a mile for the prairie road. But the hon. Minister of Rail- ways would not tell us how much he could squeeze out for equipment in dollars from the 813,000 a mile; and I am not surprised, because, I dare say, he would have to go into decimals to give it to us. Whim you recollect that an adequate IG rolliiif,'-stock, acconUiig to tliost !i!tr),()0(>,000, on which the permanent interest charged would be ifijL'ilO.OOO, besides a large sum for run- ning e.\])enses. Now, the qvieation for tlie House to dcteriuine is whether we ought or can afford here and now to take the initial stej), pledging us to an absoluta expenditure of at least 110,000,000 at once, and to an idtimate expen- diture for the standard through line from Edmonton to the Pacific of $45,000,000, making an annual interest charge of !5)2, 250,000, besides over ^'l, 300,000 a year for the gross running ex- penses, subject, of course, to deduction of the gross receipts. Considering only what tlie railway works are which we are called upon to execute in the North- West to the eastward of Edmonton, and not considering at all our other engagements — the general financial engagements of the country ; the demand for various im- provements, East, West, North and South, the Provincial demands for aid; not taking a comprelieusivo viewof'these various calls, but confining ourselves for the moment to the demand upon us in order to develop the North- West, in order thence to get the money on which the hon. Minister depends fur the construction of the road in British Colum'ui;i, in order thus to render the construction in British Colum- bia possible. Is it — I will not say the part of prudence, but the part of sane men to commence now an expenditure of .$45,000,000 in that end of the Dominion ? The hon. gentleman has told us what, ac- cording to his pr(!sent estimate, we have to do. According to his view we have to sp(>nd $15,000,000 to build the road from Selkirk to Jasper House, and nearly $"i 000,000 on the Eastern works, making nearly !i?20,000,000 to be spent, besides the ^15,000,000 already expended ; so that by the time we reach Jasper Hou.se, our total expenditure, exclusive of interest, will have beennearly $.35,000,000. But except by most seriously degrading the roatl, by altogether lowering the style of construction, i)y clian:^ing it from a good through line to an inferior colonisa- tion road, it will be necessary, according to the estimates of the hon. ni'juber for Lambton. if they be correct, to exj)end a very much larger sum than the hon. ^linis- ter calculates to reach this n.'sult. The Canaila Central Railway sul)sidy readies $1,440,000, the surveys, including tlioao location surveys, which, after all, come out of the pockets of the people, whether called exploratory .surveys or location surveys, amount' to $4,000,000. The road from Fort William to Selkirk was estimated at $18,000,000 ; the Pembina Branch cost $1,500,000, and adding $100,000 for the lied River Ihidge, we reach a little over $25,000,000. From Selkirk to Edmonton, according to the old grades and style of construction, the hon. member for Larabtou estimates at $17,650,000, which, added to the $25,000,000, makes a total of over $42,500,000 as the amount, including what has been spent for surveys, which it will have cost the coun- try, irrespective of interest and construction, to reach the point which I suggest as the reasonable terminus for the ])rairie section of the road. Of this amount we have paid $15,000,000, and must provide nearly $28,000,000 more. I have no doubt the hon. gentleman can make a very large re- duction ill these figures by increasing the curvature, by raising the gradients, by degrading the road in every way from a first-class to cheaji colonisation railway. I am not at present ileclaring that it may not be good policy for him to do so, — po.s- sibly it may l)e so ; but I think the House cannot intelligently dis])0.se of the hon. gentleman's suggestions on these points without having before it some more facts and figures than have been communicated. I no not think we can decide that $13,000,000 will ray for the work accord- ing to thepresent plans of construction, till we know what the curves and gradients and other works are to be, and we may be called uj)on to consider whether we are not sacrificinst to a large extent the future to the present in the matter; whether wo are not causing a very much larger ultimate expenditure by the pro- posed present economy at the expense of the condition and quality of the road. If the hon. Minister of Rail- .t from a ■ coloiiisii- iiocortliiiji 'inber for exjUMiil a 1)11. ]Miui.s- ilt. The y reaches ing those ali, come , whether location 00. The Ikirk was Pouibina, cl ackling ridge, we 0. From ig to the ctioii, the imates at to the of over iuclu cling surveys, le corni- est and e point easonable in of the ave paid lo nearly louht the large re- asing the ients, by ly from a ilway. I t may not so, — pos- he House the lion. Eso points lore facts lunicated. cido that k accord- iction, till gradients 1 we may ether we xtent the matter ; ery much the pro- xpense of of the of Rail- i; ways can find a plan by which he can construct tlio road with inferior curves and grades and in an inferior style to that heretofore contemplated, but reasonably good however, and the conversion of wliicli to sujjcrior curves and grades and » first- class style can le ultimately secured, when needed, without much added cost, 1 think it may be a prudent tiling to reduce for the present the expense in this way. On the other hand, we must look to the ultimate conversion of the road into a tirat-class road, a cheap carrying road for the North- West, without wliicli it will be useless for that long stretch of country towards Battleford and beyond ; for the grain will have to come down along the Pacific Rail- wa y a great many miles before it reaches Selkirk or the Red River. The House must rememberthat accordingtothe theory on which the hon. Minister advocates the completion of the road, he is bound to give reasonable grades and curves to the prairies of the \Vest. The Western set- tlers will at best be in an inferior position to those nearer Selkirk ; and if you add to their disadvantages a heavy tax on the transport of their grain by reason of an inferior road to Edmonton, it will not compensate them, to say the grain can be moved cheaply from Selkirk eastward. What they want is to get it cheaiily moved along the whole distance. Again, of course, the through traffic depends on the road being first-class, and we must remember that after wo have spent all the hon. Minister pioposes, we shall have not a Pacific, but a Colonisation road. According to the old system of construc- tion that central section would cost, in- cluding the other iiemslhave mentioned, altogether over $42,.j(l0,000, leaving out entirely both ends. What are the ends to cost 1 $-tr),000,000 is as I have stated the cost from Edmonton to Burnird Inlet on the West ; and from Foi-t William to Nipissing on the East, the hon. member for Lambton, estimsites at a length of about 6;"»0 miles, and a costof ii?32,r)(')(),000. Thus the ends makes up together iC^T 7,000,000, the centre and the pist ex- jiendituro .'?42, 500,000, making a total of !? 120,000,000, and that wholly ex- clusive of the legitiiuat» and necc- sai-y charge, which must bo ad- ded in all cases, the charge for interest during construction. In all enterprises of this description every esti- 2 mate with reference to expenditurr includes a provision for interest on capital provided during construction, before thr enterprise becomi-s productive, and this item is to be eousideicl in the reckoning. 'J'he House may be sur[>ri3ed to learn that on our expenditure uj) to this time, and rating the interest at 1 pur cent, only, as the money was raised partly on guaran- tee, that interest u]) to 'M)i\i June next will exceed $l,2r)0,0i)(t. Taking the estimates of ten days ago, if $00,000,000 are expended in the next t(!u yeai-s, there will be a total of over «;2i,r)00,000 for interest, calculating incerest on futurt; loans at 5 per cent., the lowest rate, as 1 believe, at which the money can beraised. Of course, according to the hon. Minister of Railways, wo have saved ten millions during the last W(;ek, and there- fore the interest of that ten millions is to bo taken off; l»ut even deducting it, unless my hon. friend would be kind enough during the progress of this debate to save us another ten millions, we .should still find over .^22,500,000 of interest to be provided before the completion of the line, according to the reduced figures, bi^fore we are able to reap the benefits of that enormous through and way traffic, the profits of which are then to pour into the coffers of this coun- try. We must not altogether forget the eastern connection. The hon. gentleman has not been altoitether oblivious of that part of the through line. It was politic on his part to throw out some faint hopes of the construction of that link. Quebec ha.s si)ent some .*1 1,000,OUO, which she can ill afi'ord, for the construction of a railway princii>ally designed to tap the Pacific trade. Quebec has stretched her arms out towards t'le great west, as far as this city, and the question i», h"w soon in .she to get further, how soon that great expenditure is to l>e productive, of tlio benefits expected t I am glad to know her road is |)aying something as it is ; but what (Quebec expected was not siiiiplj that it should pay, while it is new and cheaply worked, some fr.ictioii of the interest on the cost of construction, but that it would pour a great tide of traffic into her [iriucijial cities, and bring prosperity in(o her midst. But unless and until an eastern connection of some kind is made, those expectations of the Prc- vinc« of Quebec, on the faith of which sh« lii ■u pioff'cdod to ccinstnict her riiilvvay, cimnut 1)0 realisiMl My lioii. iVifiid felt lliiit. 1 should not Wf surprised — t do not know anytliiiij,' aliout it — ^l)ut 1 shoiihl not tie sur|irisi'd if my lion. tVit'ud liud lifcn told soiiu'thinj,' of that sort in private. I should not ho surprised if Moiiio lion. niend)er from Queliec had forcibly expressed to him, in private, the same observations which I have now mailo in })ublie. 1 should not ho sur- ])ri.sed if it had been iudicat:^d to him, in iani,'ua^e as strong as was consistent with the politeness due to a powerful Minister, that it was essential that he should throw out, at any rate, souie ray of hope, how- ever faint, that at some early day the Quebec Railway should be connected witli the tiiroiigh line ; that he shouM say to the luendjcrs froui Quebec : " (.ientle- men, at the present timo we can only burn the candle in the middle, and at the western end, but tin? time will come sooner tluiu you exjject wlieii wo will be b\i!'iiii)g ii in tlie miildhi and at both ends, when it will l)e alight in tlie east alao " That is, iu fact, what the hou. geutlenian has vaguely suggest^'d to us to-nigiit. Ijut my lion. friends from Quebec will consider how ii'-arer they will be to the attainment of a eonueition with tin; racitic liailway by engaging iumiediately to construct the wesieru end, and to sjiend, ace irdiug to the revised estimates, $:!0,UO(U)00 in liritish CoUnnbia. They Avill consider how much it is going to liasteu tin; day in wldcli o\ir surplus cash will enablt) us to make the conm-etion for which they long, totling ;ij;30,U(). They will judge whether our purse is like the widow's cruise of oil, iu which, liowever much you may draw from it, there will always remain enough. They will con- sider whether even out of our abundanci^, even out of our prosperity, even with our large ca])acity for raising loans and ob- taining moneys, we will be all the better nble to deal with the eastern end, because we arc commencing now to build the western end. They will reflect upon the ])ossibility, nay, I will say tlie strong pro- bability, that the ert'ort to build the westeru end, if so precipitately engaged in, may crush this country, destroy the ^hole sclieme, and render impoasible for all time, or, at any rate, for a very long timo, to attempt an eastern connection. According to his fashion, the hon. gentle- man was not tiuito consistent in this matter. H3 was at pains to point out, in order to soothe the anxious fears of his friends and supporters, that the Govern nmut was in a position to go slowly. This contract, he says, contjiins clauses which give an absolute power to stoptho work at any time ; and if we find the re sources of this country are going to be tco heavily weighed down l)y building this 1'2') nules iu British Columbia, depond u[)on it we will stop. We are not going fast ; we are going slow. We expec^ however, within ten years, having saved that ten millions 1 have spoken of, to do this much, at any rate ; but we will not engage to do it within ten years. We do not consider ourselves bound to British Colund)ia to do it by 18!)(), and we will not do it within ten years if it ]iresses too heavily on our resources. So much was necessary in order to soothe the fears of those who dreaded that the taxation would be too great and the expenditure too rapid. Jiut then the lion, gentleman had to draw back, and in order to show that even all that expenditure would not indefinitely postpone the work at the east- ern end, had to show "the silver trim- ming' — I think the lion. Finance Min- ister calls it — he had to show the " silver trimming"' of tlie cloud and he said in etl'ect : " 80 contident am I of the succ« si of my scheme that I will not name the day in which the blushing East shall bo married to the rosy West, but it will be very much sooner than any of you ex- pect." One moment he said : " I will go slowly in tlie West, because the work may be too heavy for us — don't be afraid," and the next moment he exclaimed : " I can get on so fast in the West that I shall bo able to l)egin in the East quite soon — don't be afraid." Such were tlm lion. Minister's consistent statements. Well, I say that these suggestions are intended, no doubt, to be satisfactory and consola- tory, and, perhaps, they will prove so ; but to my mind, looking at this from a practical point of view, 1 believe that the suggestions of the hon. gentleuiLUi are im- practicable of execution, and that it may be found out of the question to commence the eastern end until we have got through the centre and the western end, if the work 10 II very lons^ oouncotion. lion. j,'i;iitle- nt ill tills oint out, ill iV'iirs of Ilia :ho Govern go slowly, lius clauses • to stop tho find the re ug to be too lilding this l)ia, depiMid ■e not going We expec% iving saved en of, to do wo will not irs. We do 1 to British md we will t jiresses too I niufli was the fears of le taxation expenditure 1. gentleman :ler to show would not c at tlie east- silver trini- mance Min- ■ tiie " silver ho said in f tho sucL'r Si it name the last shall bo t it will be of you ex- I will go e work may afraid," and •d : " I oan at I shall bo uiti! soon — •e tin; hon. nts. Well, ■e intended, md consola- provo so ; this from a eve that tho laii are im- that it may ,0 commence got through 1, if the work 1' is to be carried on according to his scheme and his views, which, I believe, as they stand, are beyond tho resources of the country. C^uebec may expect tho f^astern end to be commenced when the western road is finished — that is, that it will be begun in 1890, and may be linished in 18'J7, and J hope they will all be alive to •enjoy it. Now, besides this enormous expense to which I have referred, besides tliis aggregatt! of I do not know how many millions of dollars, the interest of which, according to the old estimates, ^^ ' 1 \ni «ix niilliona a year, we have got to consider the running expenses. These expenses Mr. Fleming estimated, in for- mer days, at $8,0()0,()00 a year ; but my lion, friend from Lanibtoii estimates them at a gross sum of !?6,750,()0O a year for the whole line, or $4,.')00,()00 a y«'ar from Fort William to the Tacitic. Of course, against this sum are to be set the re- ceipts, which will be considerable, and will, in some sections of the road, per- haps, meet the expenses ; but in the early days, and for a long time, the road as a whole will, I believe, b(> run at a loss. Tims you have a charge for interest and expenses for this Pacific llaihvay, which, if you add the cost of interest during construction, places it, according to any estimate you may form, wholly beyond the resources of this country to do the work iu the way, and at the rate that the hon. gentleman has suggested Now, what must we do? "What arc; we bound to do{ What are those things which it is essential for us to do ( I agree that we must finish the road to Selkirk; and I am glad to hear the hon. gentleman i"-' going to save a million on it, Iwoui.. prefer, if he would make it a million and a-lialf, which would be perhaps as O'l.sy. We ought to finish the road to Selkirk as rapidly as yiossible, consistently with due economy. The con- tracts are let, and I suppose tha*; road will proceed. I agree, also, that we ought to proceed with the road through the western prairies as rapidly as we find the settlement and the d(;velo[)incnt of that country requires us l - advance. I believe that just as fast as we see that the flow of settlement ])resses for it and will be promoted by it, we ought to get on with the prairie road ; and, therefore, to the suggestion of the hon. gentleman, that he has contracted for one hundred miles, and that he is about to contract for another hundred, I oH'er no dissent, but my hearty ap|)robation. 1 believe that the true course is that which the hon. gentleman has adopted. That is, to pro. ceed with the con: truction of these sections. He has told us in what time he expects to have them finisKed; but long before they are finished wo may know at what time and at what rate it is necessary for us to jiroceed further in order to de- velo])e that country. We can be guided by circumstances, and construct tho road, if necessary, (;ven slightly in advance of the actual tide of settlement, but not so far in advance as to lie expend- ing our monev before it can be of any use. To do that which I have suggested, to finish the road to Selkirk, to pay ofi' the subsidy of the (Canada (Vntral, and to jiroceed with the construction through the prairie, will, in my o})inion, drain tiie resources of this country, taxed and burdened as it is, to tho utmost farthing. But to that we are committed. The die is cast. W a must, whether our Jiopes be brighter or fainter, all agree to give a fair trial to tho great experiment, on which we have risked so much, of endeavouring to settle, as rapidly as possible, that great North-West country, in the way and manner 1 have suggesteil. Burtlened as this country is, that work will demand the most prudent management and the most careful economy, and will involve an elimination of every other expenditure which can be in the meanwhile avoidtnl. According to the former figures of the hon. gentleman's f]ngineer, and to the view of the hon. member for Lambton, our interest charges will be about two millions a year when that road is completed as far as Edmonton. All that we can get from the lands in that country, for the next few yeai"s, during which we shall be engaged in the construction of the road, will not, I be- lieve;, do more than help to eke out that interest. I now jiroceed to state my views about the land question, but what- ever we may decide about the land, I maintain that to attempt at this time more than is necessary, more than is es- sential, more than the cardinal thing upon which the success of the whole en- terprise is to turn, is an act of folly and madness. I intend before I sit down to 20 m diHciis-i what H tho tnio tiimiK'ial I'omli- tion of tliis odiiitiy, iiiul wliut is its nitu of tiixiitidii iiH e(iin|ian'(l witli tho nitcs of taxation fxistiii^' in 1S71; mid to coii- siilur how far, a|iiu't from thu sali! of the luiitls, it is pussililc fur us to uiuh^r^^o tho Ktraiu wiiich tlic pioiioscd work will in- flict upon us. Hut In'foro 1 toiu^h that BulijcTt, it lii'conios ni'ci'SHary to dnil with tho o that if tlu( calculations of tho hon. First Minister and of tho lion. Minister of llailways, as to receipts from lands, andex|H'nilituroon construction are founded ui)on a roisonable liasis, thoy re- move all serious ditliculty and m-c may fairly and reasonably launch out into tho eonstiuction of tho (Vntral and Western, and also into the couKtruction of the Kastern end oftii(! Paeilic Railway. [ perfectly agree that if tlu'so matured conjectures, in wliieli every doubt was given to the side of prudence — which re- present minima instead of maxima ; if these close and aciuirate calculations are fairlr to be counted ii[ion as the ivsults of the immigration and the Railway con- struction; if l)usiness men, acting in their own conccins, or acting for others for whon\ they are trustec^s, ought to ac- cept these tigures as a l)asis for encounter- ing for tht'insolves oi- for others for svhom they act enormous liabilities, then the results of these calculations ihi justify as in assuming tlio liabilities pro]iosed to us. Now, let us 8(?e what these (litlcnla- tions are. They assume that the f'inigratioii will commence at 2o,0()i) and iiiercas'! veirly by 5,0(J<>, making, in the cour.sti of eleven years, .").")(),0i)0 emigrants. Of the.se 1)8. .")()() are to become homesteaders and preonipliirs, at an average; rat(; of 8'^ an acre for the j>reoiniited land ; .■•it,liOO are to IjecouK! purchasers of and settlers u|Pon railway lauds, at an average rate of 8'! an acre for the railway lands, making 102,700 owners of 3l',(UO,O00 acres to bt; settled in that country in the courso of eleven years. Tho ( Jovernnumt calculates not merely on this nun\ber of emigrants, not merely en this number of purchasers, trayagant. emigration not merely on thoso prices, not njerelv oji this aeriMge, lait >yith a Niiiilimo inditler- eiico to all thtt diotatoM of prudence ad to all th(» experience of all time, ^ney calculate on tlu) Hi'ttleiM on these lands paying their large instalments up to the day. They calculate on tho rtfceipt of ■iional circumsta!ic(!S. Of course the whole thing is con'ectural ; but wc have a right to refer to the ex[)erienco of the Unite 1 States, to whicii, indeed, the hon. geiitleman referred as the nearest analogous experience to onrs, and as fur- nishing with all due allowances the only available guide, f will take the settle- ment of t!u; Western States and Terri- tories, which luwi' formed the scene ot the most rapid develoiJUUMit whicii the world has hitlierto known. Ideeply regret tliat wo ai'e engaged in this disiMissio!i without t!ie jilvautige of tin; Truted Stativs (J Misus very shortly to bo taken,, bocauao I agree that ciieumstance.s in I'cference to the Railway tlevelopment of later years have si'usibly aH'ected the tide of settle nent, therefore these figures aro to be tak 11 with ;i measui'e of allowance ; still we must consider, whatever may bo now the relative advantages of our own Xorth-West, that these states and terri- tories were at the time the choici'.st in the world open, and tiiat they gave very great facilities for settlemeni'. I. take the group of Weiitern and North-Western S^at 's and n crclv on iii.liHtii- iic( atl ic, -hey to liimlH |> to t\ui l'fl|jt ot" I cli'veu I (li-l)b of «ist, milk- I, with a A a per ' suivoy L'l'ti iking rosnlt of inlly t'X- ii vi'iy rth-Wcst yt'ivr. 1 I to an rosiilts attention 1 tho con- dealing ) or two •ar.s; not t iin (!Hti- I oj)ulation was S,GU),000, thus com- (losed ; horn in tho group, 4, .■{90,000, or over 50 per cent, ; horn in other parts of the states, 2,500,000, or over 20 per cent., making 79! jier cent, in all of natives ; foreign horn, 1,750,000, or 20i percent, of tho whole jiopulation. The.se iigures show that there were three great sources of increase, to which I wish to allude for a moment, in order that we may see how far wo can expect similar results. First, there was a very rapid natural increase in the western country, fcs always haj)i»€iis when there ii abun- tlance of fertile Lmd, producing plenty of food — -consequently once there i.s a sub- «tantial niiclous of population, the natural increase is a most im[)ortant factor. Second, that there was a very great migration from the Eastern to the Western States — a home migration, not an immigration from abroad. Lastly, that there was a lai'ge foreign immigra- tion; now these fignres, though demon- strative of the considerations to which I have alluded, are yet subject to observa- tion, because, during a part of the last decade, native horn .\moricans, from both K.ist and West, wer,> swelling the armios of the Union iiy hundreds of thousand.s; tierefoie, there was not in that rajiidly growing country that relativ(t increase of tho pojiulation by natural causes and home migration, that wovdd otherwi.se have occured. The war had taken tho men away from the soil ; and at the same time there was a ff)rei iiipitl, mill liii», tlirrcfdH', pl(iy«'iiti|ccii(lt( tliaii ill foiiiici'ilct'iult'H. I,<'t UH coiiipan' oiir rir«'Hiii.stuin'i'H with tlifiiM ill tlicHH piiifiouliirN: Kirwt (if all, w« hiiTo Rt |>rcH«>iit no nuclciiH of popnliition in tlii' Nortli-WcHt wortli imuitioiiiii^. It is towards tiic niul of the ilriadc lor which w«) ftrocalLMiiatinj,' that thin factor will lu^'in to oxoit an apprt'cialih' iiiJliicntw'. Next, look Ht that iiativo n'crnitiii>,%'rouiul,that (constantly incrpasinj^ population, first •JO,000,(t(HI, runiiiiif,' np to I know nut how many millions from which I havo uliown the Western States draw their main sMpply, J low do we stand as to that? We Htand 4,0(10,000 against their 30,000,000 or 40,(M)0,0(l(». We stand with only a tenth of their population, with a relatively insit^niticant number, of whom wt< know it to l)e a fact, a deeply to lie regretted fact, but a fact which exiBts, and which there is no use trying to conceal, that many go to the United States — tlii'*^ out of our 4,000,000, in the liest times, liun- dredsof thousands leave us— I think the hon. member for Cardwell, (Mr. White), gave UH at over half a nillion, the number of those who went over durhig the last de- cade, in which prosperity was the rule, in which there was no depression, in which every Canadian had a home and good work, but still in which something oc- curnnl to allure them to the settlements in the Western States, largely by direct removal there of those who prf^erred a more southern climate, liut also to a very great extent by removal to the manu- facturing towns in the Eastern States, thus freeing the citi/xns of those states and enabling them to go West. Now, from our 4,000,000 there cannot without most R(;rious coiiseiiuences to the older Pro- vinces be a \ery large number of emigrants altogether ; and of that num- lier a considerable jiroportion will continue to go to the manufacturing communities of the States — there are persons who prefer the latter to the rural and remote settlements — and others will go still to the Western States in spite of the advantages we offer them in our own North- West. We may hope — I do, I am sure, as earnestly as any *aan can hope — that those residents of the older Provinces wlio decide to remove will niiiiply transfer their rt>«idencc» to some othxr part of thin l^ominion. 1 hope that the emigration from Canada to the IJ lilted States may be sttriously checked and replaced by migration to the North- WcHt. I hope that many of those who are actuated by an adventu- rous spirit, or a desire for change, will seek the North West. But my liopeH will not change the facts, and, whatever wo may hope and wish, it is only prudent, it is only wise, that before incurring vast obligations which, whatever the result of your s]>eculations, you have got to meet, you should count t\w coHt and carefully consider the rinka, and weigh tliv probabilities. Wo cniinot shut our eyes to the fact that a consideralile number of our surplus population will still go to the manufacturing centres of the f^asteru States ; that some of our ngricultui'al population will do what some have done iiefore, and arc* doing now, prefer Dakota and some of the Western Territories I hit suppose I am wrong— suppose that, moved by some sudden flush of partiotism changing the desires and inclinations on which they have acted hithei'to, our whole migratory jiopulatioii should, without ex- ception, nisolve to remain within the borders of the Domijuon, and to that end move to our North-West in preference to the mauufaetiiring or the Western States ; or, suppo.se the establishment of an actual wall, as high and asefi'ectual as your TariiV wall, to keep all these within your bounds as you M-iflh to keep ont all foreign manu- facturfcs ; suppose you build a wall like that of China, not indeed to keep out invader*!, but to Imr your own citizens from transgressing your limits, and to drive them into the North- West, what, would it do 1 Certainly it would be better than their going to the United States, for to go there involves a positive lo.ss to the whole Dominion of their resources. But it is no better for us, with reference to the early ability of the country, as a whole, to meet these burdens — it is no better for us that they should reside in the North-West than that they should remain in the older Provinces. In the most highly coloured view they will only be in one part instead of another part of the Dominion ; they will only be paying taxes in the East instead of the West. But talking of it only during th» next few years, I do not agree that% 23 it is nu>rily a tninHfrroiion of tax payiiij^ powoi*. I ail) ooiiviiu'cil tliiit th(i Noitli- WeKt wttli-r, for Kcvcral \i'aiM, will not l»c ftV('ryli('avyi'outiiliut(»r to tlionet rnvcnuo of Canada. Hf isa ncwHfttlcr. Ilo jmyK, tlu) Ministri'Mays, an avfi;iyc of .*;{ nn acre for liin lantl. At tlit't'iid of tlic tliinl yi'ar ho pays four tent lis of tlii> monry and int(!r«'Ht. Il liua to liiiild his liarn, und to fi>nci^ Imh land ; lio liiis to get liis iiMpl*>nicntK and liJH animals, unt.ite circumstances which thtvir ]iigh-toi!((l patriotism might lead them to conceal, nay, perhaps even to deny. The free grant settler will not be, in early days, a very large consumer of dutiable goods. He will live as hard as he can, smuggle as much as he can, and smuggle a good deal, too, under the present Tariff ; he will, in due time, under the influence of that Tariff develope home manufac- tures. For I suppose that the North- West is not to bo deprived of tho lienelicenf. inlliieniM-.s of the National Policy — to tiiid that they are to lie our liewerH of woimI und drawers of water ; I MUppose they lire not to be d lolned In that svreti'hed monotony of life, und to be depriv«i«l of that eharmini.' diversity of occupation which is a chief ar^'ument for the National I'olii y, I'lidci- the liot lieil in- tluenee of the 'I'ai ill' of high pi iceH ; under the inllueaces, whcliier bcn'-ticeiit or maleliicnt, of the National I'olit y, he will have his home manufietures. Sinco the hon. gentleman announces to ha thiit thfl North West is to sup[ily us wiihamaikec for all time f«>r our eastern iiiannfactureB, Ictus know how this llcico <>f (lid. 'on in to lie kept wet while all the rest is thy. It is (piite true that in early yi ais he will not have home maniifai-tures, liiit these years will be the hard years for the settlers. They an? the ye.ars in which it would Ik! vastly important tor his welfare tohave, F will not say homemade good.s, but cheap goods, to lie allowed to purchase the necessaries of life at the cheapest rate, and in the market that gives tho greatest .satisfaction. I'lit you encourage him in this way. You tell him we have estalilished a Tariff wall, by which you must buy in old Canaihi, at our prices, what von ro(iuire in the North-W.«st. Tl:.' '-i ;- • ■'. 'ndi- turo due to the increased prici> of L'oods will diminish tho settler's in.rrow and limited purchasing power; and w.U in effect render him subject to a rate of taxa- tion RO high as to interfere with his comfort and advancement. The hon. gentleman talks of a largo return to tho cotlers of the Dominion after jiaying the expenses of Local CJovernment. To talk to the men who are to Kettle— to whom you are going to sell lands — to tiilk to them of the large taxes you expect them, to pay is a new way to encourage them to go there. What cold wat(a- have we thrown, as it is alleged, upon tho settle- ment of the Noi til- West, that can be ' e(pial to that ? I maintain that for the I early years the taxpayiiig power of the pei-sons who migrate from tho vnat to j the west will not be anything like what the hon. gentleman states, and that, in ! fact we can expect no net returns of any j rnateiial amount from that country during I the early years of its settlement. For the first year or so but little local or •24 ■ i municipal Crovorniuent may ha needed, and with the oountiy in that disorganised state, yoii may, of course, take a Km id I net revei. e out of it ; l)ut aft(!r Local Covernments are estab- lished the cost will more than e(jual the return. Nor must you forgyt that the country is now costing you far niore than a million a vear. Sib SAMUEL L. TILLEY : British Cohnnl)ia and Manitoba pay hirgely into the J)oniiiiion Treasury. Mk. ])LAKE: I propose to show, liefon? I sit down, the net result in those very Provinces. 'J'lie conclusion is that the I'esideut of old Canada moving to the North-West doi^snot at first increase, but ratlier diuiiuishts the aggregate tax- paying ])0wer of the Douunion. But, Lesid ;s that practical reduction in the tix- jwiying power, there is another reduction involved in the transfer of ])opulation. Noliody can deny that there has been a serious depreciation in the value of real estate in Dominion. Mh. BL'NSTEH : Except in Ibitish Cobuu1»ia. Mk. BLAKE: Well, if the lion, gen- tleu'iiu's cx''e|i!i(iu be true, T can gi>'e no better proof of the monstrous character of tiio iijierations which are now )iroposed — operations for \\hich the whole of the vast Dominion, with its overburdened excheipicr, is to be taxed to benelit a l'ro\irice with 1l',()00 white people, ■which is the only Province in which real estau.' is on the rise ; and I venture to liojie thai tlu! Province which is j>rospcr- ing so greatly will not insist on the less prosp(;rous I'rovinces further de])ressing their rt'sourecs by raising 83O,(lO(),0()b or $lt),0'JO,000 for the benetit of theii- foi lunate little sister, but that she will "Wait a little I )ager f.>r her ir.ilway. I lave said theni is a rierious depreciation in the value o',' real estate. ^ hat is true in regard to Ontario, whatever it may be in regal d to British Columbia ; it i.s truf as to New Brunswick ; and T lielieve, as to the other Provinces. A chief reason is that the demand is not so great as it was formerly. Formerly our fanners, young and old, the natural in- crease of our population, created a de- mand wliich led to enhanced prices — now large numbers of them are going West. The supply is greater relatively than the demand, and that is one and a very potent rea.son wliy fliere is a depreciation in the value of our lands. Thus I attri- bute to the emigration this result that our property in the Jl-ist is not so valu- able, and not so likels to appreciate, and we ourselves will not br so well oti'if the jieople continue to migrate to the North- West; and that also shows rhat in the early years the migration to that country will not help us, but, in fact, \\ ill lower our tax-paying power for a tim(>. When the settlers begin to thrive — when they pay off the $71,000,000 which, it is alleged, titey are to ]>ay into the Exchequer, when the North-West becomes largely pro- ductive, aifiiirs will ]jrobably chang«' and the strength of the Dominion, as a whole, will be incn^ased by the larger measure of jirosperity enjoyed in the new settle- nvnt; but that result cannot bo looked for in the imme Hate future,and it does not in the least a'ter the argument that in the near future our t ix-paying power will be rather diminished tliau increased by the domestic migration. (Mr. Blake hereby arrangement nioxed the adiourn- ment of the del)ate.) On its resumption on Friday, Mr. Blake said : When the House was good enough to permit me last night to postpone my further re- marks, 1 had pointed out with reference to the domestic migration of the United States that it was impossible to h po from our home resources anything approaching an ei]ual Kup|)ly for the Xorth-West ; that in fact their increase furni>;lied no indication wiiatever of the rate of increase on which we could count from that source, save tliat it wou'il be iniiiiitely smallei-, and could not be ii;en- tioned in the .same breath ; and J was about to advert to tlie relative condition of (he t'-.'o countries with reference to foreign friigration. I ouite agree that recent events furrish us with a very happy prospect of a considerable immigration of IJritish farmers here. I hail tliat as one of the most encouraging circumstances to be 1 loked at in glancing at our future. 1 think that what has happenea, and what is happening, cannot be without important benelit to us. Tliere can be no doubt whatever that the conditions of Biitish agriculture have greatly changed, owin to the increasing food supplies both in meat and grain from foreign parts. The cheapening ot the supply has rendered i impossible for English faimers tocontin :'i!t^ 96 ':paying tho large rents tliey have l)oeii accustonuxl to pay. There is consequently a struggle between the landlord and tenant at this time, and it is not to be expected that the landlords will submit without reluctance, or except upon the jiressui'e of necessity, to a very large reduction, or to any . reduction they may think unreasonable in their rents, and in the course of that severe, if not hostile struggle, it is to be exjiected that a great many British far- mers will emigrate to this country. ]5ut, notwithstanding that circumstance, 1 liold that it is impossible to contrast the situation of the two countries — Canada and the I'nited States — on the general question of foreign emigration, without -concluding that our future is not to be measured by the estimate of theirs. What has happeiKHi in the west with re- ference to them cannot be expected reasonably to liappen in our West with reference to us, so far as the result is to be obtained by foreign emigi-ation. I have already stated that the foreign emi- gration to tlie United States for the decade ending 1860, was L>,(iOO,000 ; for that e:.drng IS70, 2,500,000; and for the present diicadci it is supposed it will amuuii-l: to •2,700,000. These tigures are enough to coviviu'ee us that the rapidity with Vvliidi western lands have been settled, so far as that rai)idity is due to the direct or indirect elfects of foi-eign emigration, it is not a rapidity which we can hope to reach in our North-West. Nor can I agree that the area of land in the I'nited States available for settle- ment, although it is, no doubt, being rajiidiy diminished, is as yet at all reducetl to such proportions as to force the current of emigration to our North- AVest. There a;'» Blill large arcar of land in that country which are available fur Settlement, and which, to those who liappen to jirefer the United States, Avill give them an opportunity of settling there for some years to come. The United States, in a sense, commands the market in this respect. The emigration to the states, as far as I can understand, has been composed in later years, to very large extent of the Teutonic races. The Germans have played a very large part in the settlement of the United States They exist there in very great numbers and they exercise there a powerful iu- fluence. The same opinions which led the inhabitants of that and all the coun- tries of Europe, enjoying b>it partially de- veloped constitutional (Jovfiiunent, when deciding to leave their natire lands and seek foreign shores, to choos(( the United States as their goal, have derived further strength from the knowledge that there are settled in the great Repuldic millions of t.ieir brother CJermans and the ilesc(>n- dants of their lirother German.s. It is therefore natural that we should expect, for .several years to come at any rate, that the bulk of tho T(Hitonic (Muigration will go, as it has gone hii'-erto, in tho direction of the United States. The next important factor in the emigration to the United States has been from the ])eoj)le of the country from which I am descended ; and we know that the circumstances of that country are such that, unfortunately for us, and for the British Enqiire, there has been a strong impulse on the part of a very large and ini|)ortant part of the po- pulation of Ireland to i)refer the Re public. In this case Ihe sins of the fathers have been visited on the children- The wrongs and injustice inflicted on the mnjoi'ity of the Irish population informer days — at least the no mory of those; wrongs and that injustice, the recollection of transactions, which no man would at this day vindicate or defend, has re- mained with those now on the soil, and obUterat(\s, or at any rate ob.scures to their vision the more liberal conduct and the more just course which has animated British jiolicy in this I'cisjject of later years. That cii'cumstancc; has led to a large emigration from Ireland to tho Ignited States; and we know what the condition of Irish sentiment still is. I>ut I ho])e for great thin^js for Ireland and the Empire from the events'^of the last few days. I hope and tru:-.t that the advent to power of the Liberal party, supported by a great majority ol decided Liberals and Radicals, will result in fi-esh measures for relief and justice to Ireland, which will tend still further to weaken her old feelings of hostility and disaflection, and to make the Empire in this regard a United Em- ])ire. I hope we shall see among other things a moderate measure of Home Rule for Ireland, and witness by the applica- tion of that measure the creation and maintenance of true and real bonds of 2G union between IrelAnd and tlio rest of the so-called United Kingdom. But things being as they are, .^nd liaving r(;giird also to the financial condition of the hulk of the Irish peasantry, no wise n)an can expect that within a short time, that within the next few years, there will 1)0 any serious cliange in tlie current of Irish immigration. So far as the Roman Catholic Jrisli are concerned we must expect that the tide of emigration will continue for some time to «et towards the United States. I hope the proportion may be diminished. I should rejoice grciatly tu see the Irish ))eople recognise the advantages we offer tliem, and esta- blisli themselves within our borders, but still, I believe that ior .sometime we cannot count on a decided change. The set of emigration has been sutficiontly shoM'n by the figures I have given, and naturally, with the im])erfect information available to those coming from other parts of Europe, and apart from all con- sideration of soil and climate, the notion of tlie important position and situation they would occupy under a Republican toi:n of Government — the idea that as citizens of the great Republic they would have a greater pai-t and more active sliare in the Governnumt of their country — has actuated a great number of emigrants from the European continent to c!:onsc the United .States as the field where their energies and their talents could be most fully displayed and the advantages of citizenship most freely exercised. Among the obvious material advantages presented to the minds of such persons is this : tha^ the National Debt of the Ur.ited States has been reduced in fourteen vears by !i?60.3,00O,OOO. It has been reduced by 30 per cent, of the amount at which it now stands, and that great reduction has been affected in the face of great ditHculties and obstacles, and, notwithstanding a period of depi-ession whicli tliey have experienced, and which seems likely now to be followed by a period of revived prosperity, perliaps of inOatisn. I say that the contrast in this respect, upon wjiich I sliall take occasion lat(!r further to enlarge, between the condition of the United States and that of the countries from which emigrants come, IS a contract calculated to allure them to the Republic. Though the ■tatistics for tlie current decade of the [T^nited States are not yet availaUe, I am?' able to refo'r to some figures showing the later progress of two states, especially alluded to by the hon. member for Card- well a few days ago, Kansas and Ne- braska. We were correctly told that Kansas liad increased from 3G0,000 in 1870, to 850,000 in 187'.), thus showing an increase in nine years of 490,000. I have already pointed out the elements of which tlie increase of population in the Western States is composed, and the do- mestic and foreign recruiting grounds from which that country draws her in- crease. The.se considerations alone show that the results in Kansas do not prove that our North- West is going to have a pojHilation of 550,000 in ten years, as stated, for none of the conditions are parallel. But apart from the fact that Kansas liad in 1870, 360,000 of a popula- tion to start with, from whidi came a large natural increase foiniing an impor- tant part of the 490.000, it is to bo remem- bered that Kansas had morever in 1870 over 1,500 miles of railway in operation and during the decade her railway facili- ties were increased to 2,300 miles. There is no doubt, I believe, that [this state ha.s shown the most remarkalde development in the history of the world. In 18GG the State of Kansas was the twenty-fourth in rank in the United States as a c^iTi-pro- ducer, and in 1878 she liad run up to the fourth. In 18(56 she was twenty-fourtii in rank as a wheat-producer, and she liad run up in 1878 to be almost the first in rank, producing in that year 32,000,000' bushels of wheat. With all these advan- tages, with all these proofs of an unt^x- ami^led ]>rogress, with that large domestic and foreign recruiting ground, to which T have before alluded, we find her increase of ]iopulatiou in nine years was but 4!)0,000, and we are told that the North- Wost witliout the advantages which were were possessed by Kansas, is to have an increase through emigration of 550,000 in eleven years. Now, Sir, I will refer to Ne- braska. In that state also there has been, as the hon, member said, very rapid pro- gress. In 1870 the population was 12'2,000. In 1879 it was 386,000. The increase in the nine years was 244,000 : There was thus, of course a substantial nucleus, the natural incrtiase from which would form, no immaterial part of the total increase. There was also a great domestic and. ■J t 27 le, I am wing tlie ispecially "or Ciird- iiul Ne- ll d that 0,000 in showing ),000. I nents of n in the . the (lo- grounds va her in- ono show not prove 3 have a years, as ;ions are fact that a popula- h came a in impor- jo reniem- in 1870 opei-ation vny facili- is. Tliere state hiis ,-elopinent 18GG the -fourth in c ru-pro- np to tlic it\'-fonrth ;l she had le tii'st in 2,ooo,ooa^ »se advan- an unex- 1 domestic to which V increase was hut le North- hich were have an no, 000 in it'cr to Ne- hasbeen, rapid pro- i 12-3,000. iicrease in There was cleus, the ould fornix. I increase, lestio and. foreign immigration. There \v(Me also great railway facilities throughout the period. In 1870, tlu-re were 70") miles of railway in operation, and in 1S78 1,320 miles ; yet with all those ad- in increase of vantages there was only nine years was due to which and even to tlie I have States a 244,000 in the that increase circumstances referred, which give the greater power of settlement than we can hope for. These are the figures for the two States which lion, gentlemen have chosen, and I believe rightly chosen, as l^resenting the strongest grounds for their expectations. J do not think they fur- nish good grounds for the.se expectations. I do not think that the only experience to which we can refer, having regard to the differences between the two countries, justifies us, however sanguine or fervent our hopes may be, justifies us as business men, dealing with a business transaction, and calculating the cash returns we may count on from the North-Wcst lands in the next few years, in concluding that there will be an emigrant population of 550,000 in that country at the end of eleven years, and in incurring on the faith of that result enormous liabilities, which, if not met out of the lands, must be met otherwise. Such a thing may happen — I wish it would, but I do not think it is probable, because the experience of no other country, making allowances, proves that it can happen in our case. The statement, I think, is purely conjectural, is highly improbable, and cannot be sustained by any analogous occurrence. So much for the first postulate of the hon. gentlemen. I do not grant his postulate. I do not think that it is de- monstrable in any way. I believe that all past experience points to its inac- curacy. But it is enough for me to say that it is not so far proved as to render it prudent to count on its accuracy. Next, as to the probable number of acres to be sold and preem])ted, the lion, gen- tleman said the (Tovernment expect to sell to the purchases of railway lands 10,820,000 acres, and an equal amount to preemptors, making a total of 21,640,000 acres to be sold. They expect to make free grants of 10,830,000 acres more, making altogether 32,640,000 to be dis- tMJsed of. Now, the sales by the United Rttttes from 1860 tol869 wer« 11,770,000 acres ; but we are to double that quantity in our sales. The lands disposed of in the United States by tree grant and under tree planting conditions during eleven years from 1868 to 1871) amounted to 47,140,000 acres; but we are to sell in eleven years 21,760,000 acres, and dispose of 10,830,000 acres more free. Although I quite admit that there are other con- siderations to be regarded in this comjiari- son ; that a largo quantity of lands was in the same time disjiosed of by railway companies in the United States, and that therefore in applying their figures we must make considerable allowances, still I think these figures furnish us with some ground on which to base our calculations. I have no accurate information as to the sales of railw.ay companies' lands. I do not pi'etend to be able to inform the House on the subject, but it is well-known that the railway ])elts in the United States are a.s a rule infinitely narrower than ours, that the United States itself owns the alternate sections of these lands, and that the greater portion of the land called railway lands by us could u 't be so denominated according to the system of the United States. But we expect to sell twice as many acres as the United States sold in ten years. Well, may our hopes be realised ! But can we afford to venture the future of our country upon the realisation of those hopes ! That is the present question. There is, however, a still more importan ; point to refer to in connection with thi subject. I will give the numbcn- of acres taken up for farming purposes in the twelve great States and Territories t(. which I have referred, at three different periods, as compared with the population. In 1850 the population was 2,740,000. The number of acres taken up was lut 35,000,000, or twelve and a half acres per head. The number of acres of im- proved land, was 12,900,000, under five acres per head of tiie population. In 1860 the population was 5,010,000. The land taken up was 67,450,000 acres or twelve acres per head, and the improved land six and one-third acres per head. In 1870 the population was 8,665,000. The Jand taken up was 95,190,000 or undci t( 11 and a-haH acre& per head. The improved land was under six and ^T 28 a-lialf acres per head. You thus find th it in thoHo States wliich are j)ointei to as tlie exiiinph; on wliicli our progress is to be l)ased, there were only during the most progressive period twelve .and a-hidt' acres of land per head taken up for fiinns, and five or six acres per head of improved lands. Compare this with tiie figures the lion, gentleman has given. ({rant him the 550,000 emi- grants he estimates, he still assumes that the.se will take up 32,0t0,O00, or more t'lan fifty-nine acres per liead of the population. The lion, gentleman may say "tiiat is my liberality, I am offering ever so much more land than United States has given, and it is natural that more land will be tak(!n up ])er head." No doul)t that accounts for part of it, ■ though for how much, I will not pretend to slatt;; but I hohl aiul believe that it is impossiblt! seriously to act on the assumption that nearly five times the aci-eage per head will be taken up in the North-West that was taken up in the most prosperous ])eriod of the develo|)nient of tin States I have mentioned. I think that the cal- culalion of the hon. gentleman has been demonstrated to be utterly fallacious. It jtroves that either the hon. gentleman lias over calculated the numy)er of settlers on farm lands to the population, or that Jie has over calculated the quantity of 1 md each .setthn- will take. One or other of these propositions must account for the ditlerence. You cannot serio'^sl}^ assume that fifty-nine and a-;iuarter acres iier head will be taken up with us where the United States dispose of only twelve and a-lialf acres to each head. Can. ii: be said that experience proves the probability of this calculation so satis- Eietorily that i»> should commit our- selves iriT'trieMibly on the chance of its ■I ealisation ? The.sejfigures are suggestive also in another respect, that ot revenue, to whicli I have inferred. You fhid the proporcion improved is very small in pro ])ortion to the amount taken up, in the earlier period not much more than one- third, or four and three-quarter acres per head. I quite agree that our lands being largely prairie, we may expect to improve or render productive more rapidly a larger acreage than the average improved acreage in the Western States, and due iallowance is to be made for that circum- .stanc?; but, making the most liberal allowance, is it jKissible that from the ex- tent of the improvements indicated by these figures, a 1 irge amount in payments on land,Hiaxes and revenue, can be realised from the settler in the very early days ] These figures, as to the acreage of improved lands, ailding what amount in reason you please for differences of con- dition, show that the returns cannot, in the early years, be very large, inasmuch as what the settlers pay must consist of surplus prolJts after Imilding houses, barns, and fences, getting their hinds into cultivation, and maintaining their families. I affirm that the figures I have mentioned do not justify the calculations of the Government. But whatever you may think as to the calculations considered up to this ])oint, I hold it to be clear that the estimates of the cash to be realised from land sales are still more extravagant. The (loveriimcnt expect to receive in cash $38,000,000 in eleven years, which would, exclusive of interest, be less than half tb.e cost, abalance of over ,'?:52,000,000 being payiible later. The United States realised in the eighty-three years up to 1871), from its public lands, i?204,r:00,000, the average being $2,100,000 a year. In the twenty years jireceding 1879 thfiv r.'alised $30,350,000, or an average of $1,500,000 a year, which for eleven years would make $10,500,000. But this Government expects to realise $38,5UO,OOOin eleven years! Of course the lands sold by the Hallway Companies in the United States are not ii eluded in this calculation. Making every reason- able allowance for this circumstance, and havin" regard to tlie conditions of the Canadian so-called railway belt, and as- suming the average prices of the Goveru- tiiCnt to be correct, the figures justify no such expectation. But the Government's calculations, made " by the highest authority," are wholly fallacious. The railway lands are divided into five belts, and til • prices are, in each belt, $5, .*i, $3, $2 and $1 respectively, which, taken together, nuikes $15, suid divided by five, the number of the belts, does, indeed, pro- duce an average of $3 an acre, which is the estimate of the Government. But this, though a very simple, is not a scien- tific or accurate method of arriving at the true average price, because the various belts difl^er in width. In the first and 29 liberal the ex- ,ecl by •ealised ' days '} age of )uut in af con- mot, in asmuch insist of houses, Ills into aniilips. mtiouod of the )U may lered np that the ied from avagant. coive in rs, which l(>ss than !,000,000 ?d States rs up to ,noo,ooo, ,000 a )receding ), or an Ivhich for ,500,000. lo realise if course |oiu])iuiie3 eluded in reason- ^luce, and of the and as- Goverii- justify no srnment's highest bus. The ive belts, ^5,^1, S3, |;h, taken by five, |deecl, pro- which is lit. Buk bt a scien- ,'ing at lie various first and highe.st-priced belt the width is but five mih;.s ; in the secontl, tit'tcen ; i» the third and fourth, twenty, while the width of the !t?l belt is fifty nulcs. The tru(! a\ .'rage— assuming iis the Ciov- trnment doey, the lands to bo taken up according to their relative value and attractiveness, and that the hnids will bear the enhanced prices put on them, ac- cording to their proximity to the railway, instead of being !i?.'{ for these railway lands is, when vou allow for the varying widths of the belts, but $2.12^. 'This single error, of course, reduces the receipts fioiii the.se lands nearly one-third, or l)y several millions. But the calculations as to the preemptions is still nior(( anuising. The (.lovernment calculate according to the first Minister's statement that for the land preempted they will receiv(> the same average of $.'5 per acre, whilst the highest price j)ayuble fo*' any jireempted land is init )?2.r)0 an acre. This is the price for the fir.st three belts. The fourth belt is $2, and the big belt, which nearly eipials in width all tlie others, $1 only, and con- sequently, the average price tor these lan1.7i), or not much over oue-half the estimate made " on the highest authority," which, by the figures given, would Hceni to be calculated at 82.50 an acre. I have thus pointed out how little this House can depend on the (lovennnent estimates. The general result of those twoerroi-s is, that instead of !?:}8,50O,00O being receivabh'from the.se lamls in eleven years, only i?2;?,.'}50,0()0 will, on the iiasis assumed by the (iovernment itself, be received, or a :? I ."1,210,000. And correcting the same errors as to the sums reuuiiiiing due at the close of the term, the estimate of .*;.'52,750,000, for these sums renin ining due must ll(^ reduced to S21, 020,0(10, a ditierence of SI l,5iK),000, making a total error of calculation of ^i;2(;,S:iO,000 in the estimate presented to tiie ll'iuse l>y the hon. the First Miinster, and endoi'sed by the hon. the Ministers of i'inancc" and fif Kailways, as the groinidwdrk tor our action. I'nder these circunistances [am not .-iirpiised that the hon genlieman shoidd lia\t' felt it neces.sary to sav(t the $10,000,000 he economised last week. The extravagance of the e- lands on which the purchasers are paying only ten or tw(>nty cents an acre ; but the real and solid returns to Glovernment from railway lands will be what settlers will ultimately pay. Those fioni buyers oii speculation will be but insignilicant. What the sett lers will jiay is tlie measure of the true value of tho,se lands to us ; and you are deliberately marring the chances of developing that country, when you place in the hands of speculatoi-s, upon the payment of 10c. or 20c. an acre, the choicest part of the railway lands; leav- ing it to them to determine, at their good pleasure, how soon and what prices the intending emigrant may take them, and begin to make them valu- able and productive to himself and the country. For the sake of making a false show of soiling fa.st, you are throwing away the best chances ot an effective and useful disposition of these lands. Then it is jiretended that the pre- enii»tors will, at the end of three years, ])ay in bulk four-tenths of their pre- emj)tion price with the interest. The lion, gentleman seriously suggests that 3,000 homesteaders, who go in 1880, will, in 1883, pay in 8G!>(),0()0, or $232 a piece, on account of their ])reeniptions ; thU the next lot will pay !=^928,000; the third, $1,000,000, and so on, until 18'J0, when tlie sums to be paid in by the preenij.tors will be $1,576,000. I quite agree with the hon. gen- tleman that the free-grant settlers will, as a rule, take up their preemptions. No douV)t they will enter for them, and pro- ceed to improve them, but there is ecjually little doubt that when the end of the third year comes round, the hon. gen- tleman's coll'ers will not bo much fuller, by reason of the payments for preemp- tions then falling due. I do not mean to say he will not ultimately realise a con- siderable sum ; but, I am talking of his calculation, that he will build this Rail- way in ten years practically out of receipts fiom these lands. I say that all the exjierience of all Governments Avith reference to sales of public lands is that the settler is slow to pay. Is the hon. gentleman going to tell these men, who have been straining every nerve to cuiti- 91 if money cause he quantity irclmseis cents an iturns to s will be ly pay. eculation What measure us ; ami e chances fhen you oi-s, upon acre, the (Is; leav- lieir good irices the :o them, ra valu- himeelf he sake ; fast, you iices ot an of these it the pre- ree years, leir pre- Thc hon. luit 3,0(X) , will, in a piece, , tint the he third, UO, when in by -) 76,000. on. gen- gettlers ■emptions. 11, and pro- there is lie end of hon. gen- ch fuller, preemp- It mean to so a con- ng of his .his Rail- »f receipts all the iits Avith Is is that the hon. lien, who to culti- "vate and improve these lands during their lirst three years, that unless they" tlien pay uj) their preemption money, they shall forfeit their preemption ? Is he going to use the landlord policy with reference to these fiettlers ? Is he going to evict them 1 No ; he has no intention oi doing that. He will not even threaten them with eviction or forfeiture. I do not hear much talk of Ihreatening even the speculators in case of dcfavdt. Depend on it, then; will be no such talk to the settlers. Judging from all past ex- perience, the result will be, that settlers will feel secure — will feel that it is not necessary for them to pay j>romi)tly ; and, indeed, to create a feeling of insecurity, by threats or harsh methods, would be most detrimental to the settlement of the <;ountry. Consequently, the calculations based upon the punctual receipts of revenue froui thi'se lands will be wholly fjAlsiiied, even if all the other calculations should turn out true. 1'he hou. gentle man expects to receive, in the fourth year, §1,870,000; in the following year, .$l',G"22,0()0 ; in the next year, !^3,-230,000; in the next year, i?l,llli",0'JO; in the next year, ?i>t), 05(^,000 ; in the next year li?5, 833,000 ; in thi; next year, !|0, 87 7,000; while the last year of this seri(!s of rapid progression is to yield $7, 50:.', 000, to he received in casii from the ,sales of North-West lauds — an aggregate of $38,593,000, apart from tiie sums not yet due of .*32, 7 12,000. Now, I vouturs to say, if every one of thcother calculatioue be realihod, if the hon. goutlemangets into that country the a»iiount of emigration he expects, and at the time he exp(!Cts, if he makes sales to the numbers and at the prices he exj)ects, these calculations .as to the dates and amounts of his re- ceij»ts will, under no circumstances, be realised. Under no circumstance.i will he receive these sums, or anything like them, at these times or anything like them. Let the fourth and subsequent years be the test. The receipts from settlers in all the earlier period will be relatively small ; and not before these settlers, who can i^iy only out of their .surplus profits aftcture, that 80,000,000 will be tlu; amount of acres required to be surveyed, in order to ell'ect the disposal of the smaller (piautity, than to conjecture that 50,000,000 will be the numljer. 'Jhe.i, there is the cost of collecting all these millions of money from all these tliou- sands of men. I think the charge too low. I do not know what the iuimigra- tion policy of the Governuient is to be, w^Iiether they intend largely to increase the expense for that purpose or not, or to devote the availal)le amount to tlu^ North- West ; but it is obvious that, if these lands are to bo rendered ju'oductive by immigration, the cost of inducing immi gration should t»e considered a first charge upon the lands ; and that this, in addition to the cost of surveys and management, should reasonably be deducted from the proceeds of the lands, before you, can a[)ply anything to railway purposes. In- deed, I may go further and say, that the cost of payments for Indians of over 32 iSSHSOjOOO a year, and foi- tho Moiuitcd Polie.' Force about $300,000 a year, in all S8r)O,0OO a year, unci otiier local cliar<;Hsi, are prior eliargos on tho proceeds of tho lands. I maintain that the whole thin<,'i.s visionary. Indood, I may remind tho House that when the hon. gentleman opened his romaiks, lu; demanded a oer- tfiin postulate to he granted to him ; that he declared later that he would prove his figures to a demonstration ; and then at the end he offered us to abate one-half. " If yon will not," says he, " take the whole of my estimate, take one-half." A calculation commencing sc ])retentiously, and terminating in so humiliating a man- ner, was hardly, perhaps, worthy the serious attention T have been compelled to ask the House to give it. Now, with I'e- ference to the api)li<;ation of all this money. In the announcement of the First, Minis- ter, he took ^38,000,000 to be received in the eleven years, and deducted at the close of thej)eriod 8i*, 400,000 for man- agement, the net cash coming in being tiius, S3(;, 200,000. Set this against the .$60,000,000 he estimated to be spent on the Pacific Piailwav, and there is a small balance of Sli 1,000,000 ! Yet the hon. genthMiian tells us the cost of the road is to be met out of the land sales, without encroacliing on our taxes. But that is not tho true state of the account. The hon. mend)er for (iloucester at once pointed out that tho hon. Minister had not allowed for the interest on the cost of construction, and that this woi Id ab- sorb a large ))art of the receijjty. To d.at, no reply wms then made ; but the next day the lion, the Finance ;^Tinister acknowledged the justice of tha criti nsm, and, in that free and off-hand manner in whicli he is accustomed to deal with niilUonsot monev, agrcal that!?l8,000,000 ''or iuto're.st on the $()0,00",000 should be deducted from th(> receipt. First, lie would reduce the hon. First Minister's estimate by half,then take off ■•$18,000,000 from the remainder, and still, said he, enough remains to build the ro.id. Even the 818,000,000 tho hon. the Finance Minister was willing co deduct, does not repreai«nt the true gtati; of the case. As I said the other evening, we .shall have spent, up to thfl .'?0th of June, .^1.'"), 000,000, in round numbers, on the Pacific Railway, the interest paid on which, at only 1 jwr cent., would itmount a year for following years to !?1, 272,000 up to that periad. But, taking tho figures of the hon. JMinister given the other night, namely, a further expenditure of 8l0,0U0,000" a year for the two tir-st years, and $5,000,000 each ot the eight allowing interest on these at T) per cent., and on the ohl balance at 4 per cent. ; and taking tho receipts from lands as the hon. Minister iiimself errone- ously estimated them, then the result would be a yearly deficiency for interest so large as to run up in the third year to83,332, 000, and in the .sixth year to stand at $098,000. The account gets to the credit side in the year 1887, and from that time tho interest is paid, and something is available to- wards the principal ; but the practical re- sult would be a credit, according to that calculation, not compounding the interest in the earlier period or crediting the later yearly surjiluses to ca])ital until the close of tho term, of $12,631,000 only to the capital account of the Pacific Eailway. But according to the corrected calcula- tions, tlnu'e would be a deficit of interest, swelling each year until in 1885 it reaches a sum of over five millions, thence gradu- ally diminishing, initil at the close of the term it stands at $1,478,000, so that the practical result woulil bo that, at the clo.se of the term there would be nothing acco nplished out of the proceeds of the lands, except to pay the bulk of the interest on the cost of construc- tion, and the whole capital account, with a portion of remain due. Let me re^ults'^the statement First Minister gave him a from lauds of 868,900,000, expenditure of 860,000,000, credit balance of 88,900,000. reeted statement cives him a interest, would summarise these of the hon. n(5t return against an leaving a Tho cor- net return I of 844,470,000 only, and an expenditure ! for princi])al of 860,000,000, and for in- I terest, excluding arrears of interest, of I ^23,-560,000, in all 883,500,000, leaving I a deliit balance of $39,090,000— a trifling ' error in the grand result of about I 848,000,0<}0. And, when you I'emembf.nr that even this calculation is, as I have proved, based upon wholly visionary esti- mtites, I think it is established that, as business men, we cannot build largely on the taxes of this country being lightened in respect of tho construction of this Ilailwaj within the next few years. n 3.1. ruit, jNIinister !i further your for n.ooo.ooo ,0 eiglit st on theHe l)alimce at eipts from olf orrone- sult would st ao large 3,332,000, , s6raotical rc- ng to that ;ho interest ig the later il the close inly to the c Railway, ed calcula- of interest, j.') it roaches enc(! gradu- ilose of the ■io that the at th(! close bo nothing eeds of the ulk of the construc- ,1 account. st, would ivrise those the hon. n(it return aL;';vinst an leaving a Tiu! cor- Inot return ^xpendltui'o uul for in- jntorost, of |)00, leaving — a trilling of about Il I'emenib'.-r as I have kionary esti- Id that, as lild largely Ltry being lonstruction [t few years. 1 i My conclusion is tluB, that altliough we may receive, and I lio[io we will receive, in the time to come, a coiuiiderablo revenue from our lands in tlie North- West, yet wo cannot, as prudent mon, expect that we will early receive such a large amount, or anything ai)proachiug ing it, or anything approaching one-half the amount which the hon. Minister suggested ; that wo cannot expect that the immodiate chftrge and strain upon the resources of the coun- try, involved in the Ministerial programme, will be early relieved by tiio receipts from lands. Wo must look, tlnnefore, to our other resources for tlie present bearing of that strain, and when those largo receiiits do couK! in they will come in only to re- coup us for the long years of arrears of i.iiorest which will nioantimo liave ac- crued, and will not do much towards tlio liquidation of the original cost. These fantastic calculations do not bear investi- gation. The/ are based on extravagant Bpeculatious in everything tending to in- crease tho receipts, and on (.Troneous figures besoi^s ; they are based on un- trustworthy ' stimates in every tiling tend- ing to dimiiii h the charge, and on erro- neous figured • '.udes ; and, on tlie whole, I declarethat u > sane business man w.nild incur large liabiji*^ies on the olianco of meeting them o.it of such resources. Now, Sir, I for car), have no wish to prevent any expend ''ure which is essen- tial for the settleniont of tlie country. I wish the House to understand that that is, at any rate, no part of my policy. On that subject, as I have said, the die is cast. Most of us believe that we have a prospect there ; and I want all to unite in the effort tp realise that prospect. I think even those who do not lielieve it to others do will agree in I wish that we should direct our exertions to every step cal- culated to make the best of that country ; to settle it at the earliest day ; to give it as soon as possible a productive pojjula- tiou, and to make it a prosperous and influential portion of the Dominion. It is because I want the great experiment to have a fair chance of siiccess, because I believe that, committed as we are, it is our doty and our interest to give it that chance of success, that I implore the House tp direct its undivided attention at present to this point ; to apply the avail- 3 be so bright a:5 making tlie efibrt. able reHOurces, scanty as they are, of this country, oxclu^lvely to thiit backbone of tlie whole enterprise, witliout the success of which theie can never bo a Pacific Railway from sea to sea, without the sue- ce«s of which our wlioh; plan lunl future may be scattered to tiu* winds. Pru- dence in our expendituK! is essential to the succe.ss of settloinout. Do you suppose that those intelligent persons who ' art; about to emigrate to this country will bo attracted or ro[)olled by the proposal to expend $30,000,000 in the gorges of Bi'itish (.'olumliia ! Do you sii[ii)0He that tiie suggestion that we can afford to ex- pend this large sum at present, i)ecaust* these setthnvi will repay it in taxes and land purchases, is calculated tn encourage them to go into that country ? Do you suppose that these pooplo, scanning the pulley and prograimn.- uf tlio Adniinistra- tion upon this subject, and undorstanding that this vast expenditure is to lio at onct; incurred because they will pay it all, may not say, " perhaps we had better not join, perhaps we had bettor not bo partwors in this gigantic undertaking if we alone arc to meet the expense." Prudence in the limitation of our burdens, prudence aa to tho increase of the Xatiunal Debt, pru- donoo as to every enterprise tho Govern- ment are undertaking at the same timo tliat they are undertaking the settlement of this country, is an essential condition to the success of their ellbrt at colonisation. Do not frighten away those who might join us, by your lavish and reckless engagements, based on their anticipated payments and their expected' taxes. Our position is critical, and wo should husband our resources fur what that position may demaLiJ. The hon. Minister himself stated yuiiterdty that Canada stood in a critical j)osition I agree with him, and standing in that position — more critical in ir.y \ iow, per- haps, than in tho hon. gcut'euau'.s — it is doubly necessar;- that we should t.il. ■ care not to undertake just now mor: m.^n is generally agreed to bo essontli- tq i'.". success and the future of our coiiutr^-. Tide us over for the present, and li' your expectations are realised, if y u repeive these large sums within the short period you have predicted, if within four or five years these sums are paid into the Trea- sury, thpn it will lie soon enough to decide that there is a i)ractical basis upon 34 which business men cnn act ; soon enough to agree that there is a foundation upon which we can procewl to build in British Cohiiubiiu Then we can honestly tell our constituents that there is money, obtained from the lands, out of which the Railway can be built, without further adding to their })urdons. But, in the nieantimo, wo L-annot honestly say this ; wo cannot show them that the resources of this country, without using means raised by the heavy burdens of taxation levied for the purpose, will suffice to build the Railway in British Columbia ; and I, for one, stand opposed to the expenditure of these heavy taxes in any such way. And now, having shown that we cannot depend on the sales, and must look to the taxes, at present, to meet the proposed expendi- ture, it is necessary to ascertain our pro- sent condition, as compared with our condition in 1871, and to examine into the state and resources of this country. Circumstances render it extremely difficult to form an accurate estimate of our position. Fortunately, we are called upon to form an estimate now, not for one or two years, but for a series of years. We have a policy, a ; m for ten years, before us, and we are, therefore, called upon to measure the future of this country for a long term. The best course is to look back a little and see whether from the lessons of the past we can derive any light to be shed upon our future condition. It is difficult, as I have said, to deal, even in a series of years, with the question of the progress ot tins country. The vicissi- tudes of the seasons, upon which depend our main industry and source of wealth, the changes in the markets of the world, in the price of fi[rain, and in the price of lumber, our principal articles of export, the changes in the world's trade, the suc- ceeding depressions and inflations whijch i-esult in alterations in the profits of our shipping business, and in the cost of the goods we import, all these cii-cumstances reivler it an extremely difficult task for a Knance Minister from time to time to forecast the future of Canada, even for a short eighteen months ; and it is with un- feigned diffidence that I ventare to offer some general observations with reference to the past as throwing light on the present and future of our country. For three years after Confederation the amount of our imports was almost stationary. Th*» times wore hard. That period was fol- lowed by NOV era I years of tremendous inflation. 'i'he hon. member for Card- well rdlftrred to ono circumstance, which, no doubt reduced to some extent tin; apparent amount of our imports, namely, our illicit trade with the United States. Thoro was also the excessive value of commodities. Those circumstances, no doubt, ai'e to be considered as modifying the ai)parent inflation. But, apart from the question of illicit trade, these inflated values only sliow after all that we gut less for our money. They do not prove that we paid less money. A'ter tliis period of inflation, there have followed iour yoai-s of over widening and deepen- ing depression ; and the first question I put i^, how far our tax-jiaying pjwers have really increased since 1871, wlien it was resolved that we should not increase the existing rate of taxation in order to complete the Tacific Railway. Two factors have lO be considered in order to solve this question — first, the increase? of population — secondly the increase of resources. Increase of population does not necessarily mean increase of tax- paying })owor. We may have more heads, but each head may be poorer, and consequently there may be a smaller acfgregute of suiplus wealth, though divided among a larger number of heads. In this case there would be no increast of tax-paying jjower. I do not believe that the people of Canada are, on the whole, able to ])ay more taxes per head to-day than in 1871. There has been an enormous shrinkage in our lumber trade, from 828,000,000 in one year to ^13,000,000 in another. There have been many bad crops. There haa been a great shrinkage in bank stocks, and a number of these institutions has been swept awav' altogether. There has been a great depreciation in real estate, not so much aa compared with 1871, but suffi- cient to be destructive of any increase between 1871 and 1879. There has been ageneralaudlongprevailing and deep state of depression in trade and commerce, resulting in the loss of an enormous amount of dapital. Besides this, there haa been a large increase in federal, provincial, munioipal, corporate, and private indebtedness. Anyone who listen- ed to the debate, the other day, could not 35 tint 1)0 appalled by tliu HtutonieiitH an to the amount loaned on niortgageH in the Province of Ontario. Added to ull this, there has beoii an npwiinl turn in the prico of gold, whieli m unfavounihlo to all itorrowing and indebted coimnunitifs. Against thesf nnfavourahlo circuiiistanceH are to be set expenditiui-H, which have taken the form of asuotH. \V'(! have niado largo fedend, provincial, corporate and private improvements. But these aro represented in part by prcnuiturc or mis- directed applicati.fns of capital. No one will pretend that the Intel colonial Kail- way, located as it in, is a ffood commercial Hpeculation ; and several llailways in Ontario and elsewhere have been con- structed at a time and nn routi^.s which |irevent their value iVom e|Ualliu;^ their cost. Many of thest; public work.s will in future be wvy valuable, but at present they do not form an addi- tion to our resources commensurate with the burdens they involve. Tlie tax-pay- ing powers of the pe()j)lo of Canada, man for man, are, I repeat, no greater than in 1871. One proof of that is, we are actually buying less. For tour years the \mports have been diminishing. Last year they reached the lowest j^oint for nine year.". It may bo truly said that we bought less in nominal value, because goods were ch-japer, and we got more for our money ; but that observation does not hold good to the full extent to which it is sometimes advanced, lor values in 1871 had not reachi d their aiaximura, and were not so far above those for 187!) as to account, to any adequate extent, for this difference in tke amount of our im- portations. The truth is that we are not buying largely, because we are too poor to buy largely — we cannot aflford it. And this, as I said, is a corroborative proof that w« are not better able, man for man, to pfiy taxes than in 1871. Nor will an inflation next year, or the year after, if there should be one, alter the facts. We do not proceed by regular steps, we go up and down ; and on this occasion it is our rate of progress for a series of years, not for a year or two, that we are called on to consider. Speak- ing generally, in view of the history of the last decade, and in view of our re- sources and our true elements of pros- perity, old Canada cannot expect a genuine rapid increase of her resources. I hope for progress ; though it will be hinderetl by our Tariff laws. The hon. genthimen opposite hope for progress on account of our Tariff' laws. IJoth aro agreed iu hoping for progr«ss. That there will b« progress I have no doubt, but I think it will not bo such as to interfere with the correctness of the calculations I am making. I call on those who indulge in more sanguine hopes to give a reason for the faith that is in them. I btl-Vve hard work, rigid economy, prudent manage- ment, and gradual progress and accumu- lation is the fate of this country, as a whole, and of its populatinn individu- ally. [ regard it as no uidiappy fate, 1 regard it as possessing great and compen- sating advantages Kioin the character of our climate, and tlic naliu'e of our resources, and other circumstances, from tlu! necessities of our situation, we aro taught to practice virtues whose pos.se.s- sion is a full compensation for the absence of tho.so ; someAvliat easier conditions of life, those more lightly earned gains, those brighter material proHi)ectH which may, perhaps, be obs(!rved in some other land.H. Sturdy independence, maidy labour, vigorous exertion, prudent self-restraint, wise economy and temperance, these aro great and satisfying compensations ; but. Sir, we must show ourappreciatiou of those virtues by an earnest elibrt to piactice them, not merely in private life, but as the distinguishing characteristics of our national existence. If we do not, wc; fail; and when you find in this country appa- rent progress by leaps and bounds, you may conclude that that progress is more more fictitious than real, and will be followed by disaster which will sweep away our fictitiou.«» gains, and leave us poorer than before. Now, Sir, assuming that our tax-paying power is no greater, man for man, than in 1871, we have only to ascertain the increase of popu- lation since that time. The hon. Minis- terof Finance roughly estimated our popu- lation the other day at 4,000,000, that is, including the new Provinces. For ob- vious reasons I take, for the old Provinces, the rate of increase demonstrated by the last Census, although I think that too large an estimate ; and I make out our population at 4,050,000, including the now Provinces, which, for this purpose, may be reckoned at something under 200,000. Now, of the new Prorincea, it I .1(5 I may Iw rapeatel that whatovnr tlieir tux paying powura, their tdx (.'onmiining powtjin ar«) Htill more romiirkahle. 1 have an interoHting tahic ot' tbo rflsults M to the collHclion ami diHtrihiitioii of our Rdvenuo for tlic tirat ten yearn after ConfodiM-ation, which will aiiswor thn prudent (piory of the hon. Finance Minister yestcnhiy, in re- forence to the tax-;)ayiii^; power of Manitoba and BritiHh ( '()lmiil)ia. when he asked why we Hhoiild not count on a largo net revenue from the Noith-WoHt, having jvgard to die oxainph' turaishod l>y tlioso Provinces, Now, Sir, assigning to each I'roviiioi' the rev<'iiiui derived from it, as s'lown l\v the Piihlii; Accounts, and charg- ing each Provinc" with its local services, and with sucli pruts of the Fedcr.d ner vices as are Ity the I'uhlic Accounts dis- tinguished and assigned to the soparato Provinces, tlio results ai'e as fo!h)ws : A\'o collected in all .*i;)f<,(lO(>,000 ; we spent in all 1^' 189, .'500,000 ; leaving a sur- ]>lu3 of ,?S,ii.-iO,(l()0. The receipts from Manitol)awere!$S7(),()0(),th(! distinguished expenditure, $l,.'')yv»,00(> ; tiio deficit on tliis head, .S72-J,O00. For Prince Edward Tsland the I'oceip's were !?l,.*)'.H),()0() ; the expenditure, !?2,G24,O00 ; the deficit, $1,027,000. For British Columhia the receipts were .S2,55f<,000 ; the ex))endi- ture, .$.$,441,000; the deficit, !i?88;5, 000. For Nova S^-otia the receipts wero 8 10,11 2,000; the expenditure .f 2 1, 17o,000; the deficit .«2,O6O,O0O. Then there come the rocoi])t3 and expenditure on joint itccount for .services not •livided among the Provinces, for exam- jtie, I.egislatinn, Civil Government, a large part of the interest on the Public Debt, !uid other undivided items, and all the ex- ponditures in connection with the Nortli- Wo-*t and the Pacific Railway. For these the receipts were ?;7,.5y9,OO0 ; the expenditure, i$.>0.581,000 ; the deficit, 842,982,000 ; adding to this the aggregate of the provincial deficits before st.ited, you find a tos. 1 have not divided the various items for Ontario and QucIk-c, wiiich are given jointly in the Pu!)lic Accounts ; but tak- ing a few great heads of llevenuo, a gen- eral conclusion may be reached. Thus the Excise duties of Ontario amounted to .'=!2<;, 732,000 ; those of Quebec to §13,017,000. Tlie Customs duties for ()ut2,000 for the latter. The general result on these heads is to give a revenue from Ontario of 887,954,000, and from Quebec of $45,550,000. I know that these figures may be disputed in some respects by the people of the ^Maritime Provinces as to particular items; for examide, those which have I'e- ference to exi>enditure on the Inter- colonial Railway. I know it is con- tended, whether rightly or wrongly, that this expenditure should be entered as a general charge against the whole Domin- ion, and not charged separatel}' against those Provinco-i. There may bs, of course, other disputable details. I state this in order that the House may understand that theser figures may be somewhat affected, but I am convinced that the re. ^^" .< •. iiioeH o\ wick, of th« pay- I aerated, ate to nir pay- i,Gr)0,()()0 »)t. We 1 Quebec III tor th« iliture re- in of the (• Doiuin- Kll|)|)li«cl il.OOH.OOO, jiroviding vidi'cl the )vill('()8 of lUCl'H. I itoius for ire givun Init tak- uo, a gca- hI. Thus loiuitoi to K'heC to (llliie^^ for iiKlo goods putorod at ,ults aaccr- iiatiou by alt with iiinoiint- ins duties )r(liug to 7, 00 5. I inps to be tliird for tho for ttor. The to give a ',1)54,000, G.OOD. I disputed pie of the particular li have re- Lho Inter- it is con- ngly, that tored as a (' Domin- y against of course, te this in understand somewhat lat the re. Bult will not 1)6 very inuterinlly altered on ! that account. It will b«t Neon from thtmu j HtatisticH that homia of tho Nniallor I'ro- | vinccH, heavy as their oontribulionH are — and I frtH'ly admit that Nnv- eral of them are lieavior contributors ]Mr cupitii than some of the larger I'rovinces — are yet not atjecjuato contributors to, on the contrary that tlu'y are heavy drains on tho revenues of Canada ; and it will bo further seen that the bulk of the expe»diture— I may say every shilling of the ez|K>nditure on t\u) North-West and on the I'acilic Railway — is contributed by the Province from which I havu the honor to come. But apart from the question of tho tlistribu- tiou of taxation, I have shown that our gross taxpaying power, as a whole, nuiy be said to have been incrt'aHcd since 1871 by the addition of 5(iO,000 soula, or six- teen per cent, to our population ; that is, that if we can, or if wo choose, to buy, man for man, gooils to the same amount in money, as wo bought man for man in 1871, our consumption of imported or excisable goods, and consefpieutly our revenue would, un0,00() ; in 1879, « 1 8,890,000 ; an increaae of $r), (540,000, or over 4^ per cent. Look at some of the items which produce this appalling result. The capi- tal of our net debt stood in 1871, at $77,700,000 ; in 1879, it had risen to $147,480,000. It had almost doubled. It has since increased, so that it is now more than doubled ; and still it goes rolling on. Our net anrnnil charge for interest was in 1871, $4,800,000; in 1879, $0,060,000 ; an increase of $2,360,000, or nearly 55 per cent. ; and it still goes rolling on. The increase in the charge for interest has not indeed kept pace with that of capital, for several reasons. We have raised a largo sum fronx our i)eople without intereit, in the shape of legal tenders in circulation, and compulsorily held as bank reserves. We have issued several guaranteed loans at \tiry low rates of interest. Wo have reborrowed to pay off old loans at a much lower rate of interest than the raDo they bore ; we have borrowed fresh n;oney at better rates ; and we have been borrowing at a discount, which, of course, means that wo have been capitalising a material l)art of our charge for interest. But with all those advantages, real and apparent, I believe, our nett annual charge for in- terest will, by .'{0th June next, be in- creased by $2,700,000, a yenr or nearly 6;i percent. The truth is, Sir, that our annual foreign loans are now not, much more than enough to jiny our interest. Some part of them, indeed, have been of late years devoted in terms to that purpose ; we have had yearly deficits, and have been obliged to borrow to pay our interest. But apart from this, the average annual loans to be raised for the next few years for Public Works will be not much greater in amount than our yearly interest pay- ments. Can we go on so borrowing for everl No, Sir, and the Minister who tells us he can, has yet prudently arranged to avoid an application to the London money market this year; and is about to try his hand at a cheap domestic loan. He is to ask us at home, out of our abundance, to supply him free of interest with the sun T 38 Le wautH. PaKsing from the cliarge for debt, .soiuo of tlie items -wliich coiuiirise the (irdiiiary auuvial oxpeiuliture show startJiiig increases. The Provincial Sub- sidies Iiave increased 31 percent.; Civil Ciovernmeiit, 34 per cent., with an enor- mous fur.hei- increase in the present J^sti- males ; A'lminis ration of Justice, 83 per cent. ; Peiiiii'ntiarie.s, 4G percent. ; Indian grants, by if;, 80,000 ; Nortli-West Police, by ?r2*JO,000 ; in Legislation there has been an en' rniuns increase ; with a general i-esulr, tljat the ordinary expenditure has increased between 1871 and 1879, by .■J2,;3oO,()00, or over 50 per cent. In the face of this startling and wholly dispro- portionate increase of our expenditiir'''s over our tax paying powQr, is it not plain that we liav(! licen going too fast 1 We have been running ahead of our resources. We iiave increasing our expenses more thi'U three times as fast as our tix-pi^ying power. Our situa- tion is truly critical. We have been iuntatiiig, and even surpassing, the extra- vag.ince and recklessness of the nations composing the European .system. The Euioj'vau mttions in the fourteen years from 1864 to 1879, increased their Na tionul Debts G5 jier cent, in the aggregate ; but v,'<; have doubled ours in nine years. The budgets of those nations were in- creased in the last fourteen years 40 ])er cent. ; iitit we have inciijased ours ;")(] jjer. cent, in i.ine years. It is quite true that our e>^ endiiuie has been more produc- tive tiian theirs. We have not been eng:ige p in numerous or frightlully ex- pensive wars. We have expended large .sums ill iinj)rovements more or less pro- ductive. But for all that, we have been im- moderate in our expenditure, we have act< 1 extravagLintly, we have gone be youil ,•»! i x-paying power, and we have surpassed the European .system in the in- crease of our annual charge. I say we should not present to intending immi- grants such a siniilarity in financial man- agement to the coinitrios which they are loa ing, mainly because of their heavy burdens. We sho"ld rather endeavour to present to thetn a cheering contrast to to the European system ; and this the more because there is one country, our rival and competitor in the immigration market, which does present a marked contraBt to the European sys- tem. While Canada is so lavishly in- her yearly expenditure and National Debt, tlie United States Las pre- sented to the people of Euro|)ethe uniijuo example of an enormous reduction in its National Debt, and it is that fact which constitutes one of our greatest dilHculties in competing with that country for immi grants. I dare say the lion, gentleman will accuse mo of being "unpatriotic," but it is no use blinking the facts. It is not unjiatriotic to say what is true. Sir CHAHLES TUPPEli : The hon. gentleman mistakes if he thinks 1 object to his stating the fact that a protectionist nation has suc9,eeded in riiilucing its debt. 1 should certainly not make any such ob- jections. Mit. BLAKE : I am not nowdiscnssing the general question of Eieetiade and Protection. However achieved, these are the results. Nor must it be forgotten that a part of the inciease in Ei rope has been applied to public improvements. Much ])ublic money has been expended in the construction of railwaysthere. May not the emigrant, flying from burdens in his owii country — Hying from an enormous National Debt and an- nual Budget, say that it is prudent for for him to fly to a cuuntry which pre- sents a contrast to the one he is ltu\ ing, which shows a continually decrt asing debt, and which, theiefpre, promises to lighten the buidtns of taxation 1 Vv'e do not pre.'-ent that contrast — the Urn led States do present that contrast. Tliey tell the emigrant that they have reduced their debt by §030,000,000, their interest by a still larger relative amount, their mili- tary expenses enormously, and that they are presenting a pro.spect of progress in the same direction. Why should we not emulate their plan, by placing, so far as our circumstances permit, this con- trast before emigrants, instcHd of follow- ing the example «et by the old countries from which Ave expect thtm to come { The LTnited States has reduced its National Debt by 30 per cent, of its pi-esent amount ; and its Budget, though large and extravagant compared to its scale before the war, and embracing many millions for war pensions and interest on war debt, now compares not unfavour- ably with our own. Before the war the expenditure of th^ United States, with a population of twenty-seven and one-hidf millions, showed a charge of $2 a head. 3§ Of course we pay large sums for provincial services, wliich clo not in tlie United States form part of t!ie federal charge. It is i)e;-fe(Mly true that a comparison would be unfair without a very large reduction on that account, but, nuikin<; that large reduction, it is equally true that the com- parison is not unfavourable after all ; that our system has become extravagant and onerous, and has gone beyond the in- crease of tho tax-paying powers of the country; and it is time to call a halt. In this expenditure there is included $1,272,000 for interest already paid on the Pacific Railway. There will be in- cluded $600,000 a year for future interest on the past expenditure on that Railway, and untold sums for interest on the further expenditure. How have we met all tiiis, while our tax-paying powers have been increasing so slowly ? How have we made both ends meet ] Partly by fresh loans, and partly by ailding to the taxation of the people. The hon. Finj.nce Minister said, the other day, that the difference between the taxes of 1868 and 1879 was a dollar p'^r head, and that the increased taxation thus cal- I dilated was four millions of dollars. He gave us the figures by a rougli calcula- j tion. According to my view, the figures ' for that period, so calculated, would bo ' §l,10i),000, but I hold tliat this mode of computation is not . a fair way of determining tho real addition to the burdens of the people, and that they have been in trutli increas(;d to a much larger extent. That mode might be fair on the assump- tion that the people were consuming relatively the same amount of goods as formerly ; but if in fact we are consum- ing a (siiuiller value per head of goods, wiiile we are paying a larger sum per head oi taxes, it is obvious that the added taxation upon that limited consumption, which ahtiieour poverty permits, has risen to a greater amount than $1,400,000, and and to a larger amount than $1 a head. Suppose, for example, that our imports for consumption were diminished by one half, wliile the taxes we paid remained the same aa before, it is obvious that the burdi.n of taxation on imports would be dou'led. It becomes necesaary then to ascertain and compare the rates of taxation of- 1871 and 1880. Thei-e are three principal heads of taxation — first, Bill Stamps, to which it is not necessary to refer as the amount is not very large, and there has been no material change in the tax. Taking up the second head, the duties of Excise, I will not trouble the House with any calculations as to malt and malt liquors, because the increased tax has now been taken off. Tlie duty on spirits, estimated on the quantity entered for con- sumption in 1879, at the rate collected in J880, would be $3,650,000 ; and on the same quantity, at the rate for 1871, 82,750,000. The iiicrea.sed taxis, there- fore, $900,000, or 33 per cent, of an addition. It may be alleged that the quantity entered for consumption in 1879 was abnormally large, and consequently, that the gross sum of $900 000 is in ex- cess of the increase on actual consumption. Were this so, it would not, of course, affect the rate of increase which would remain at 33 per cent. But 1 dispute the allegation, for it will be found tliat the quantity warehoused in 1879, is furbelow the corrected average for tho nine years from 1871 to 1879, and is almost equal to the uncorrected average for that period. It is, tl'.erefore, obviously not an excessive consumption. I admit that the hon. gentleman can hardly expect so great a consumption this year, but, in my opinion, that is largely due to the fact that the tax has been raised beyond tho true point of greatest productiveness. Tlie magnitude of the tax has given rise to a great deal of smuggling or illicit distillation, thus interfering with the revenue, tiiough jiot with tho consumption, or with tlie cost to the jieople. I hope that the hon. gentleman may be right in attriVtutiug some part of the diminution to the prevalence of soundiu- \ii!wa, as to the wisdom of abstaining from the use of liquor. But, after -11, the test which I have applied, ij the only fair one, and this proves that the quantity is not ex- cessive. As to tobacco, the duty on the quantity entered for con.sum|)tion, in 1879, at the rates for 1880, would be $ 1 ,580,000. At the rates for 1871, $1,140,000. The inci-eased tax is, therefore, $440,000, or 39 per cent, of an addition. The con- sumption is below the corrected average tor tho nine years, and, of course, far below the uncorrected average. It is, therefore, clear that this represents \ the minimum addition en this head. The result then is that the I ■ r . increased excise on spirits and tobacco is $1,840,< 00, or over 34 per cant, of an additio:.. Now I come to the last and greatest head of taxation, the Customs' duties ; and I wish to show the House what is the increase in taxation on thi» head on the whole mass of the imported goods, dutiable and free, which we con- sume. To ascertain our consumption it is obvious that you must not take the total importaticns ; nor can you, wit8 propriety, take the goods entered for con- sumption But by deducting from these the value of foreign grains and the proditcts of foreig.i grains i^nported, since these ar- ticles are practically only in transitu, and are either exported in specie or set free for exportation an equivalent amount of home grain, you arrive, as nearly as the information given by our returns will allow, at the quantity of imported goods, free and dutiable, which we actually con- sume. This forms the basis of my calcu- lation. Allowing for the temporary duties imposed iu 1870, and taken off in 1871, by a proceeding which came into operation prior to the date of the taxation resolution, the rate of taxation on the imported goods, free and dutiable, which were consumed in the four years from 1867 to 1871 was, upon the average, 13.90 per cent. This, then, I take to be a fair as- certainment of the burden of our Cus- toms taxation in lo71. But I may say that, even if you make no allowance lor the temporary duties to which I have re- ferred, the average rate will be raised only to 14.21 per cent., an increase which you will see is not sufficient materially to affect the results. During the subsequent three years (1872, 1873 and 1874), in the course of which there were considerable remissions of taxation, and in which also the very large con- sumption may have somewhat disturbed tlie relation between the quantities of free and of dutiable goods, the average rate fell to 12.33 percent. In 1875, tht; first com- pleted year after the increase made under the late Government, the rate was 14,32 p3r cent., a large increase indeed, an increase of nearly one-sixth, on the average of the preceding three years, but after all a very trifling increase, an inci-ease of "only one-thirty- third, on the average rate between 1868 aud 1871. But what is the rate now, as aHCcrtained by the return for the first six the last six months paying the lower months of the year 1 It is no less than 19.62 per cent. Nof does this represent the whole extent of the increase. The lion. Minister has told us that his revenue is suffering by reason of the excessive im- portation of gobds in anticipation of the tariff. But the goods so imported were, of course, those of the class on which the largest increases were to be made. Of these, therefore, there has be§n an exces- sive supply, and by consequence an ab- i normal proportion of the importations for have been of goods rates of duty. The over-importations being absorbed, and the imports reverting to their normal condi- tion, these proportions will be changed, and consequently the average rate will be higher for the current six months ; and, in the future, the Tariff will be found to inflict a charge ,>nsiderably exceeding 20 per cent, on everything free or dutiable entered for consumption. But apart from this consideration, and assuming 19.62 per cent, to be the true I'ate, consider what this means compared with 13.90 per cent., the earlier rate. It means a new tax, a fresh tax, of O4 per cent, on the value of everything free and dutiable which we import for consumption. It means an increased rate of taxation of over 43 per cent., for 5.72 is more than 43 per cent, on 13.90. Our Customs duties are nearly half as heavy again a.s they were in the early perioti. Now, if you apply the new Tariff to our very small cousumptionfor 1879, a consumption many millions smaller than that of 1871, and smaller than any year thereafter, tlie in- creased taxation will, on that small con- sumption, be $4,075,000, and this, on the incredible assumption that wo are not to increase the value of our imports, is the very smallest measure of our added Cus- toms taxation. If to that you add $1,340,000, the increase iu Excise, you find that the additional tax- of this country on the consumption of 1879 was more ^5,400,000. This is far greater the hou. Minister's estimate of I $4,000,000, but it is far less than the I burden will be in case the consumption j should become normal. It is true that the smallness of the v: lue imi)orted. in ' 1879, is partly due to the comparative I cheapness of goods, but we must not for- ation small than : than 41 leas than represent lase. The is revenue iosaive im- •ju of the irted were, which the made. Of L an exces- nce an ab- ^tations for . of goods luty. The led, and the mal condi- e changed, 'erage rate urrent six iture, the to inflict jeeding 20 or dutiable t apart from uing 19.62 ite, consider with 13.90 t means a per cent, on md dutiable mption. It taxation of is more than )ur Customs vy again as Now, if ir very small nption many 3f 1871, and after, the in- small con- this, on the I are not to wrts, is the added Cus- it you add in Excise, itional tax- on the was more far greater estimate of ess than th«> consumption ia true that imiK)rted. in comparative must not for- 9 get that I have been comparing it with 1871, when values, though higher than in 1879, had not gone nearly to their highest point ; and after making every allowance for cheapness there remains a large deficiency to be accounted for only by the consideratior that our poverty and our economy have led us to stint our- selves. But prices are rising, and hon. gentlemen say, good times are coming. What would this Tariff produce on a con- sumption of the average from 1872 to 1875, $109,000,0001 You can easily tell. It is about one-fifth. It would take out of your pockets in Customs nearly <522,000,000 1 But let as try to rnive at a normal consumption. You can roach it in two ways. Take the consumption of 1871 and add IG per cent, to represent the increase of population. This vould give you, for 1879, a consump'aon of .$91,300,000. Or take together the nine yeai'S of inflation and depression, ending Avith 1879, and the uncorrected average would be $91,000,000, less than the pro- l)er estimate, of course, but coming vor\' close to the figure reached by the other mode. Assume, then, that for us, in 1879, $91,000,000 would be a normal consumption of imported goods, you would pay in Customs $17,850,000; in Excise of spirits and tobacco, $5,230,000 ; in all $23,080,000. While, at the old rates, you woiild have paid in Customs $12,650,000; in Excise, $3,890,000; in all $16,540,000, an increased burden on your normal consu nption of over $6,500,000. And this is a fair estimate of the result of the Taritt" at the Custom-house and Inland Revenue Office. It is, indeed, quite clear that, with higher prices and good times, i\ie hon. Minister should get a Kevenue. When, on an average, one-fifth part of everything we require to import, great or small, cheap or dear, necessary or luxury, raw material or manufactured article, free or dutiable, iUid two-fifth ]iarts of what we drink and smoke are abstracted by Gov- ernment for jjublic uses, how in the world can Government fail to realise a lievenue i And yet, if things should so turn out, no doubt we shall find tlio hon. the Minister coming down next Session boasting of his feat, and endeavouring to persuade the country that he has conferred on it great blessings, when he has in fact only abstracted from it enormous sums by a raking and grinding Tarifl", which is oppressive in its character and vexatious in its operation. But this id not all, Sir, or nearly all. We have been considering hitherta only the amounts that come into the hon. Minister's hands. But the un- counted uiillioup which go into the pockets of the thousands of ju'ivate tax- gatherers created by this Tariff, partly to unduly swell the legitimate profits of some industries, and the rest to compensate for the misdirected and unprofitable application of capital and labour to other trades ; these millions though they are paid by the mass of the consumers, as surely as if they went into the ^linister's hands, we are unable to ascertain or take into account. But this we know, that their receipt does not swell the Public Treasure. The people pay them, but the private, not the public tax gatherer receives them ; and so, though the people pay, they receive nothing in return. Sir, we have reached and passed, designedly passed, in m;iny cases, the effective limits of a Revenue Tariff. We have been aiming at different and incon- sistent ends. Pursuing revenue through imports, we have been attempting at the same time to check imports, on which our revenue depends, and to substitute for them home manufactures. And certain it is, that unless the hon. gentleman has wholly miscalculated his action, unless he has wholly bungled in the use of tli« great weapon he has been wielding, he will have stimulated home manu- respect of some of of importation most revenue. It is certain that ho will have deprived the coffers of the country of the duties to be derived from those articles. Sir SAMUEL L. TILLEY : As in the United States for instance. Mr. BLAKE : I do not propose, as I have already said, just now to enter into a geneTivl discussion of Free-trado and Protecti'-n, or to analyse the condition of the United States, or to examine how far they may be able to endure losses and to play tricks with tJie principles of poli- tical economy, which we can by no means aflbrd. I think the distinctions are obvious. Nor do I intend to hazard a conjecture as to which of the two inconsis- tent objects which the hon. gentleman frtctures in the articles productive of 42 has been pursuing he will earliest or most signally succeed in. I say that an effect will be sooner or later produced ; and while in case of good crops and high prices there is no doubt the last Customs revenue will next yoar be increased ; there is no doubt, also, that a very lai-ge sum will bo sooner or later — and I think tolerably soon — diverted from the Custom- houso to the pockets of individuals. It is plain, by the admission of the hon. gentleman to the extent of $4,000,000, and, by the figures I have stated to a much largor amount, that wo havegreatly increased the burden of our taxacion, and that every dollar that we are paying and aretopay for interest on the construction of the Pacific Railway, has come find must I'ome out of this incrcxsod taxation, or from further additions to our burdens. It is obvious that you cannot meet in any other way the additional interest for the construction of the Railway ; and, therefore, your i)lan is a deliberate viola- tion of the settled and established policy ot Parliament. To our present load we are to add many millions more for that work, and whore, save from these odious and op- pressive added taxes under which we labour, can you find tho intei'est { Even apart from the Pacific Railway, and fur- ther expenditure on it, we are in a criti- cal condition. Wa are trving one "veat experiment in ti'ade. We are engaged in a supreme effort to make both ends meet in finance. Wo have not yet accomplished that feat. The hon. gentleman said a month or six weeks ago that the Revenue for this year would be within half a million of tho expenditure. I wonder whether he will say so when he moves the second reading of the Supply Bill? We Oil this side believo the deficiency will be a great deal more. We are not yet in a state of equilibrium as to receipts and expenditure. We are engaged, I say, in one great experiment. Is one great experiment not enough at a time 1 Would it not be better not to plunge too deeply into experiments, specu- lations and conjectures? Would it not bo better, as we are engaged in this largo financial, commercial and fiscal venture, not to enter into fresh pecuniary en- gagements of an enormous character, based upon expectations of the vaguest nd moat fantastic kind ? Are we now finally to subvert tho policy of Parlia- ment re-enacted, as I have pointed out four several times, agreed to almost unani- mously in 1876, that tho arrangements for the construction of this road should be such as not to increase the burdens of taxation ? Because, if you agree to the scheme of tho Government, and go on now with tho construction of the road in British Columbia, you commit yourselves to tho construction of that road irrespec- tive of tho increased rate of taxation, and of the burdens imposed and to be im- posed upon the country. I ask the House not to adopt that ruinous and reckless conrs(^ ; but in preference, to say they will limit themselves at present to tho coni[)letion of tho road 'ueLwciCU Fort William i'ud Bolkirk,aud tin; prosecution of the i)rairio sectioi), until we nev. the actual result in point of sottloment, de- velopment, land sales and, above all, i-eceipts of purchase money; and then, when that result has been ascertained, and a substantial fund has been provided from the sales, a fund available for the purpose of building in British Columbia without continuing to levy the present increased rates of taxation, that they will then, and not till then begin construction in British Columbia. Sir, we must consider the circumstances of this whole Confederation. We must not forget the mode in which it was formed. Hon. gentlemen opposite^ af- firmed, with great warmth, in 1867, and for years afterwards, that it was but a union on paper, and that tho reality and permanence of the connection were yet to be established and secured by a careful policy, and by a practical experience on the part of the people of its benefits. A cynic, indeed, has said that, as lietween Ontario and Quebec, it was rather a divorce than a union ;,that Nova Scotia was coerced into it, and compen- sated by damages for the loss of her honour ; that New Brunswick was frightened into it, and compensated as well ; that Manitoba was forced, and purchased into it, too ; and that Prince Edward Island and British Columbia were — shall I say seduced into it ? by pledges and promises — some impossible, all extravagant; at any rate by settle- ments of the most lavish character. But whether this description be true or not, at any rate hon. gentlemen admit that 43 are broken. The from the smaller capita than you it was at first a union only on paper, want to know what haa been done to cement it, to make it veal and permanent, to make it a union of hearts and inter- ests, to give it vita'iity and strength 1 Look at the various Provinces. Almost every one, after all your better terms, is in deep financial ditficulties, and is knocking at your doors for fur- ther aid. Imitating your extrava- gance th-^y have outrun their re- sources, and they liave come to 'look on you as the great tax-gatherers for the Provinces, believing that they may go as far as they please and that Canada must fill the void out of the federal revenues. You have seen the distribution of your revenues and your expenditure. You remember all the promises at the time of union, of low taxes and cheap government. All, all vast sums you collect Provinces, lieavier ^jjj collect from old Canada, and a burthen on their people, are yet,as I have shown you, quite inadequate to meet their share of the cost of confederation. Ontario settles the bilance. That Pro- vince asks no special advantages. She claims no special favours. She is ready to do her part, and more than her part, in the furtherance of the common interest. But she may fairly de- mand • of you a prudent, a just, an economical exi^enditure of those resources which .she contributes, and an abstinence from rash engagements for speculative and unprofitable objects. This indeed is the common interest. It is the interest of the whole, present application of our Public works and improvements through- out the old Provinces have been, as fai as possible, wholly stopped ; there is no money for them ! Our inland shipping trade, labouring under the greatest de- pression and the keenest competition, is asking for relief from some of its burdens ; there is no money for it ! The vast ex- penditure by which Quebec has strained her resources to accomplish a connection with the great west is largely abortive, Let Quebec learn the prudence of not building railways before they are wanted, and act on the lesson now ; there is no money for the eastern link t No, Sir, all that we can raise by taxes or by loans, all that we can beg or bon-ow, b to be I sunk in the gorges of the Fraser. Should this be so 1 Are we to tax ourselves to the last point of endurance, and to mort- gage heavily our future and our country \/ for such an object as this ? If it be true, as your trusted representative, your Higli Commissioner, said on the 27th March last, that " The duty of opening up the North- West is one we are to perform, not so much for oursslves as for the Empire at large; that the inhabitants of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia anJ even On- tario, have not much greater direct in- terest in opening up those wheat fields than the farmers of Yorkshire and Tip- perary ;" if this be true, how much less in- terest have we in opening up thi canons and gorges of British Columbia 1 If it be true, as your High Commissioner said, on the same occasion, that, "it is im- possible for us with our limited moans to undertake alone the settlement ot the Norfeh-West; that we have neither the peo- ple nor the money to do it;" if this be true, how much less are we able to add to that intolerable task the Columbia section of the Kailway ? Is thit indeed the way to develoj) even such a poor and attenuated I national spirit 'as is attainalile by a people who are not psrmitttd, who, per- , haps, do not even aspire lo their legiti- mate participation in the niimigement of the concerns of the great lamily of nations ? Is this indeed tli'* way to in- fuse among us the spirit of unity and I brotherly love, to make ns one, and a . contented people 1 You \a;\y perhaps ! partly satisfy the 12,00) souls in ! British Columbia ; but only because your What is the ! action is the pledge and hostage to them for revenue 1 ; the completion of this gigantic work, to the ruin of the whole. For us, for all, this is not the way. It is not by the forced connection of a restrictive Tariff, com- pelling each of us to trade with some other of us, to our loss, and against our will ; it is not by the fatal load of an enoiTOOus debt, crushing out our energies and mortgaging our hopes ; it is not by an added weight of taxes, lowering the value of our labours, and lessening the comfort of our lives ; it is not by flinging, with a lavish hand, into the mountains and rivers of Columbia all you can collect or borrow, while you starve all public works at home ; that you will accomp- lish a real suooess, that you will con- solidate and harmonise the union. You I il I . 41 are making our load heavier than that of the Unitfid States. You are making it heavier than we can bear. You are paving the vay to that very annexation which you profess to dread ; because yoii are bringing us to a plight in which we may be forced to do, as a people, what we lieard described the other day as the sad end ot many an imjirudent individual borrower, to sell our poor equity of redemption to the only avail- able purchaser. You profess un- bounded fiiith in the permanence of your restrictive Tariff; you blame us for even discussing its operation, for throwing doubts oil its durability ; and at the same instant you send a Higii Com- missioner to England, who asks her to close her ports ugainst the grain of the world, in order tliat your farmers and hers may obtain from her millions of poor a higher price for the staff of life ; and, who proposes in return, that you should open your ports to her' manu- factures, thus destroying your revenue, and at the same time, under the fierce and unchecked competition of the clieaj)- est producers in the world, blasting at once every one of your home industries, which is said to be dependent on a duty for its existence. Such is your reck- less, your inconsistent, your vacillating, vo'.ir unpractical policy ! Do you ask for mine i I will tell it. Set free the springs of legitimate revenue, by removing the obstacles designed to choke them. Open the avenues of legitimate trade, by lowei'- ing the legislative bars designed to close them. Free the people, as soon as iray be, from the extortionate taxation by which you oiipresa them. Return to a moderate revenue tariff, the only prac- ticable plan in our circumstances, and a necessary incident in whose operation is to give some of the so called advantages of protection to some of your native industries. By an earnest and searching plan of econo- my and retrenclmient, directed to every branch of the j)ublic service, help to redress the balance between revenue and expenditure, while you lighten the peo- ple's burdens. But if you will do none of the.se things, if you will in all else persist in your mad career, at any rate in this bfl wise. If, in all else, you be rash, in this at any rate be discreet. Learn that our position is grave and serious, and that our future is dependent on present prudence. Complete the Rail- way to Red River ; go on with the prairie section as fast as settlement de- mauds. For that, risk something ; since, as I h.ive said, the die is cast. But in order to succeed in that, in order that you may have a chance later to do more, deal with that alone nosv. Bend to that great effort your undivided ener- gies, your whole available resources. Postpone, meanwhile, the western work, and do not, by your present action, based on airy dreams and vain imagina- tions, risk the ruin of your countrv. Sir, I move, " to leave out all the words after ' that' and insert the following : ' the public interests I'equire that the work of constructing the Pacific Railway in British Columbia should be poat- noned.'" 1 . ■\ i. > ■;•,!'• .'i,«> ■'-;::; ?■■!.' .0 , ■■• .' ..^■;■i ';< l-t T..!-i-i W ■ i; II ! 1 '■! iii 111 ■■ .-.;■,■ !f "i-'. ' Y.-'*'" -'' ''' • '" '-- ■ :, J.- : iJI-Ji'Vi .uv{;'i»,4;I.. . ',- -. .-.If li ivfii ji Jliw JvJX it) 'yji- i : 'I ')i) . iiy ic^ 'And tt\-iMijitaom. i *ci T Ki aa^yfr imii lie, ft ixation by eturii to a only prac- ices, and a leration is vantages of industries. ,n of econo- I to every e, help to jvenue and ill the peo- II do none in all else it any rate Ise, you be e discreet, grave and dependent .e the Raii- with tho lenient de- ing; since, ,t. But in order that o do more, V. Bend t'ided ener- resources. tern work, nt action, n imagina- r country. the words following : that the ic Railway be post- . \yt >;: ■ t n bits-. •^. \