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PACIFIC RAILWAY.

SPEKCfi DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

— BY —

Hon. EDWAED BLAKE, M.P.,

ON —

THURSDAY and FRIDAY, 18th and 16th APRIL, 1880.

(From the Officml Report of the Debutes.)

Mk. BLAKE : I shall endeavour to
bring forward tlio amendment of wliich I
Lave givisn notice, in the spirit whidi my
hon. friend opposite indicated as correct
in the opening portion of his remarks
notwithstanding his failure to show
that spirit in the course of his speech. I
cannot agree with the hon. gentleman in
the view that this (piestion is to be de-
graded by its discussion as a party ques-
tion. We hear a good deal of that sort of
thing when one party takes a line ot argu-
ment inconvenient to the other party.
Those who atloj)t that position, in effect
condemn the institution of party al-
together. They seem to argue that legiti-
mate [arty (juestions are such only as are
inferior, or of small magnitude ; and that
great questions should be handled on
some other and higher principles. If so,
what is the ju.stiti cation for party at all t
But they do not carry out their view
to its legitimate result xn any aspect ; for
a moment later the hon. gentleman him-
self saiil that there was a most important,
a most vital question — the so-called Na-
tional Policy — which he rejoiced was made
the battle ground of party. I do not
know any reason why we who claim to
be as true Canadians as the hon.
gentleman — we who have just as
great a stake in Canada as he
has, we who have our interests here,
we who are just as proud and just as hope-

ful and trustful of the futui-f; of this coun-
try, if only j)rndence shall yuide her des-
tinies, as the hon. gentleman can be —
why we, the Lil)eral party, should not be
free to express our united opinion as to
what the interests of our country demand ;
and it is because, in our opinion, it is de-
sirable that a postponement of the Western
Section of the Pacific Railway should take
place, that I i)ropose to place my amend-
ment in your hards. The line of address
adopted by my hon. friend obliges me to
go a little more minutely into what I
may call the antiquities of this question
than I had intended. 1 must now advert
to these antiquities a little more in detail
than I would have don(>, not so much to
discuss them in their ])aity aspect, or to
ascertain the extent to which ench party
has become committed, one way or
another, not so much to a.scertain who
was right and who was wrong in the past,
not so much with a view to recrimination
as to determine what, on the whole, has
been the settled policy of Parliament on
the subject of increasing the burdens of
the people on account of the Pacific Kail-
way. It was on the 1st of April (a
fitting day), in the year 1H71,
that hon. gentlemen oi)posite, then
as now controlling ])ublic aflairs,
carried an address of this House, praying
that British Columbia might be united
with Canado, on a stipulation to be in-

olu(lf(l in (1i(( Terms of Union, that tin;
Pacilir Uailwiiy .should Ic coniinonccd
witliiii two vt'iirs and Ihiishcd in tt-n
years. At tliiit btijiulalion of the Terui.s
of Tniou tlie Opposition, and otlier lion,
ineuihi'is not in their lank.s, expres.'-ed
an lionrst, a j,'tMUiino alarm. Tlie Term.s
of Union were helieved to Ik- jirodiijal in
all their a.speetss, and niinou.sin partieidar,
with refen'nee to the IJailway .stipulation.
The seheiue met with earnest oi)p(sition
on the pait of many not IielongiiijL,' t(< the
Liheral party. Then; weie .several divi-
Kioiis upon it, and in one of these it
neaily nu-t ils fate, tiie majority which
served it lieintjoidy ten. My lion, frit.'ud
from Dundat', a .supportei' of the Adminis-
tration, moved that amendment which
wont to post|i(<ne the con.'^ideratiun of the
(picsticju iinlil the sen.se if tla; ]pe(iple
could he taken u])on it. Th<^ Ciovernment
hecauie alarmed lest they .-jiould uoi he
aide to carry the scheme, and they <iti\e
assurance.s that .some resolutions M'ould be
hroujjht forward, which ndght serve as
a defence to their followers against the
public indignation, which it was api)re-
hended might bo aroused by tlieir ass(!nt-
ing to the baigain. The Address then
passed. This was on tlie Ist of April ;
and it was not until the 4th of April
that there was a proi)osal made in the
House for a detinition of the liability for
the construction of this liailway. Tlie
first proposal, made by Sir George Car-
tier in the absence of tlie then and now
First Minister, and seconded by the pre-
sent Finance Ministei-, «as tliat the
House would, on the following day, con-
sider a resolution, "That the Railway
should be constructed and worked a.s a
private enterprise, and not by
(jovernnient, and that the public
aid to be given to the enterprise should
consist of such liberal grants of land,
and such subsidy in money or other aid
not unduly pressing on the industry and
resourcea of the Dominion, as the Parlia-
ment of i.Janada shall hereafter deter-
mine." This resolution was not satis-
factory to the friends of the Government.
It did not meet tlie exigencies of the
case ; — it was too elastic, too vague, it
did not uiean enough ; and the consc-
(juencf^ was that ou the Hth of April, in
substitution for that, a projmsal was
moved and seconded by the same hor,
gentlemen in the same terms — with this

exception, fnr the words "not unduly
pressing upon ti:e resources of Canada,"
the words "not increasing the present
rate of taxation " were substituted-
Ihis WHS more precise. The alteni-
tion was made in order to satisfy the
supjiorteis of tht^ Guvernment, and
if jiussililo the |>eople. Tht! hon. the
]Minist(.'r of J^iilways asserts now, but
i deny, that the Terms of Ifnion were in
form and fact niodilied bv that resolution.
During tla; del'ate, an hon. member of
this J louse (.Sir Antoine J)ori()ii) moved
an Address to Her Majesty praying her to
iiiciirjioiate the vesohition into tlu; Terms
of Union. That motion was siipprirted
by the Liberal party, iait was dtfeated
by the votes of hon. gentlemen i pposite,
who iiisiste<l that no auch i evolution
should be carried ; that it would jjievent
the jiroposed Union, and deprive us of
the inestimabl(! blessings to flow from
annexing JJritish ("oliimbia to this Do-
minion ; and tliat the opportunity of so
annexing that Province might be lost
forever. The opjuirtunity thus fairly
otTered to make that a condition of the
Terms of Union was rejected by hon. gen-
tlemen opposite. Well, I have always
urged, and still urge, that the surround-
ing circumstances cannot be wholly
ignored. Having regard to the i%v.t that
delegates were here frois Pritish Colum-
bia taking part in the discussion, having
regard to the fact that the resolution was
in a sense, though not officially, and as it
is alleged without authority, recognised by
them, I have always urged that British
Columbia could not in equ.ty r.nd good
conscience wholly ignore the resolution,
but should remember that the Union was
in fact obtained by means of tlie resolu-
tion ; but 1 have l)een obliged to concede
that she was not strictly and legally
bound by the terms of that resolu-
tion, even if the work turned out to be
such that its accomplishment would
materially affect the interests of the
Dominion, since the terms agreed to gave
her, by the strict letter of the law, the
right to insist that the work should be
proceeded with, no matter what the con-
sequences. She is entith^d to say, " Here
is my bond, I ask for my pound of flesh."
There was then, subject to and not con-
trolling the legal effect of the Terms of
Union it is true, but still contemporaneous
with them in D<71, a formal res:olutiou

ilerlaratftn of thf desires ami intentions
•f rarliainent, that the work hhonltl not
involve an increase in the taxation. Tlie
tirst Pacitic ]{ailv\ay Act was passed in

1872, under the auspices of lion, gontlfl-
nien ojjpositt\ This Act recites tho reso-
lution agfltiuHt an increase in taxation and
the propriety of carryinf; it ont ; and pro-
Ti<l('s a linu'tcid quantity of land and
iimney a« tlift nie^uis. Wo woraeyen then
told that tho remaining land wouM meet
the money K''""*^> which would cost us
iiothi\»if. This was the second Parlia-
mentary declaration against increased
luxation fur tliis oliject. The (lovern-
mcntjin 1 S72, chartered a Oompany which
depositml a million of ntouey iis security
for the construction of the road. Suhso
(juently the (>jm;iany, wliich was de-
]iendent on the raising of fonsign capital
tor its fcuocefi.s, found that it could not
obtain that eitpital without moditied
conditions, and asked for hetter t'-riuH,
whicli the Govffrninent refused. It then
proposed to Burrender the charttu-, and
receive hack the million hard cash, which
it had deposited in order to .secure tho
fulfilment of its contract, and so sure
were the Administration that they coidd
u»ake a l)etter bargain with others, or so
kindly diii|)osed were they towards that
particular Com])any, that they accept(ul
t he surrender of the charter, and returned
the money that had been deposited. They
met tlie House shortly after, in the fall of

1873, and they had alrea<ly found that
some other and different arrangements
would have to be maile to accomplish
the construction of the Pacific llail-
way. The Government of that day
acknowledged that their scheu'c, their
]»lan, their act, their charter, under which
the Company which they had favoured
had been incorporated, were failures and
they declare<l that a new plan, requiring
new legislation, would l)e submitted to
the House for pronding means to carry
out that great entt»rj)rise. The Speech
from the Throne delivered in IS 73, con-
tains these words :

" Tlie Canadian Pacific Company, to whom
a Royal Charter waa granted, havo, I regret
to ec.y, been unable to make the tiuanciril
arrangoments necessary for the (•onHtruction
of tl at great undertaking;. Tliey have, there-
Tore, o-ecutetl a surrender ot their cliarter,
viiiii,;. lias been accepted by nie. You will,
1 trust, fetti jouraelvt'S calle I U|ui/i to take
steps to secure the cjvrly fommtMiwinrnt and

▼ igorou.i ]>ro8ccution of that r.iilway, and thus
to carry <iut in fjond faith tlie arrai>genient
made witii tho I'rovince of liritish ('oluml>ia.
A nieasuie for that purpose will b« submitted
for your consideration."

What kind of measure? Circumstances
to which, after the tone taken by the hon.
irentleman, it wouM bt' ill bred to allude,
pr(!Vented the now jiroposition from
l)eing brought down. The rcii,'n of the
ffentlenu-n wlio promised that new
^■chem(( siii'dfiily came to a termination.
It is very W(!il known, however, that
the now idea was not in fact a new
idea, that the idea of the First
Minister, as he stat(!(l |tulilicly in the
county of Lennox in 1873, always had
been the same, nauuily, that the work
should b(! constructed as a (loTennnent
work, and that it would, it' he hail been
in Ottawa dnriiig the [Session in which the
arrangenu'Ut li;ul been made, liiiv(> been so
undertaken ; l)nt the pressure of tho Op-
position had bei n so groat that his col-
leagues had yielded, and for their action
he admitted Ik; was resj>onsible, though
his own views remained the .same, that
the work should l)e couiitructed as a Cov-
erinnent work. Then what was the new
plan which has never seen the light 1 It
must have been a measure for construc-
tion by tho Government in ac-
cordanct* with the opinions of its
chief. It WIS to be .something dif-
ferent from the old jdan. What other
difference could there be ] This j troves
that tho cry of change of policy is not
sincere. The new measure to be brought
down must have been a change fiom con-
struction byacomf)any to construction by
thr^ Government. There is no other alter-
native, The Government resigned and
tho hon. member for Lambtou assumed
the position of First Minister. In his
published address to the electors of Lamb-
ton, which stated the Ministerial policy
on which the elections were held, my hon.
friend declared that the bargain which had
been made under the auspices of the late
Government was one which could not be
fulfilled. He stated that it would not do
to commence the construction of the road
until the country had been thoroughly
surveyed, and that it would not do to
prosecute the constructi(Ui fkuster than the
nisources of the country would justify.
He t'urtheriu(jre declared that application
would lie made to liritish Columbia for a

relaxation of t.h« tcniis wliicli limi. j,'t'ii-
th'iucii oppii-itd had iiniioM-d uimii the
couiitrv ; and loi sm h iiii aii!iiiu<Miifiit
as would giv«! 11 r<'ii.souiilil(! time lor (he
coiiimicceiuent iiiul i»trt'uriiiiUice of tlie
woik wilhciiMoo jjrent a stiiiiiioii our re-
80uree.>. 'Jiic jtresiiit I'irst iMiiiislerdt!-
liouiiced ihih us ii lirmih ul" I'uith with
IJiitish t'oluinl)ia, entitliii-,' her to secede.
So ililierciit wc'ie Ins views iVoiii tliosi^
now ndv;iiu"td liy the hoii. .Ministei-
of UailwavH. Sliortly after the eleetions,
and after I had hft tho (Jovi-rnnient, a
gputh-ninn, forineily u niendier of tliis
House (Mr. Kdj^ar), vas sent to I hit ish
Colnniliia witii a view of ne^^'otiatinj,' with
that I'rovinue for a rehixation of tlie
terms. Tiie jirojiosition-s were rejected
or n( t accepted Ity tlie Oovernment of
British ('olinnhin, and were withdrawn
Bometinie i^ liie montli of June. i\Iean-
time tin* t^ession had Vieen held, and ii
new I'acitic iJailway Act had lieen intro-
duced. Tiiis second Act recited
expressly all the previous resolu-
tions a^'.iinst tlie increase of taxation.
It recited tiuit tlio taxation had bi't'ii, to
some extent increased in order to meet
th(^ oMii,'ations of the Dominion, and
declared that it was pi'oper to provide for
tlie construction of tho road as rajiidly as
the work coukl t>e accomplished without
furtiier raising; the rate of taxation ; and,
the former scheiue having failed and it
lieinj,' inipossilili' now to assume that the
roail could he cunstructid hy means of a
company, power was giv* n hy the (iov-
ernment to huild sections as a (iovern-
ment work ; hut the avowed and stated
policy of the Administratiru was to use
that power only fur the purpose of doinj,'
some parts of tiie work in advance of the
comj)letion of the surveys for the through
line; and it has heen repeatedly explained,
hy my in n. friend, tho niendjcr for Lamb-
ton, that his intention was, as soon as the
surveys were completed, to submit the
whch; of the nmd to tender, on a land
and money basis, the contractors taking
over, as Ciisli on account, the works mean-
time executed l)y the Government. It
was a scheme devised to make pi'ogress
where, and so far as progress could be
nnide consistently with the resolution
against increased taxation. The Min-
ister has com|ilained that there was
no reiteration of tlie declaration that the
road shoulci bo built only by a company,

but there was contaiiieil in the Act a
j'ower to do the work by mt-aiiM of a ccin-
iianv. At any rate it was unnecessarv to
leitriate that. .My bidief is that it
would 'have been contrary to tlie
policy which the present First Minis-
ter believed to be sound when ho
announced his views in l.iennox, in li"^7.'h
J maintain that, by that Act, which re-
]ieate(l and re-enacted the old resolutions,
and declared it was proper to proceed
only consistently with tlu! provision
against increased taxation, there was a
reiteration of the old railiamentary
policy, then rcatliimed for the third time,
that th" road w.is not to bo constructed
on any plan which wouhl causes increased
taxation. I well remember that tlie lion,
member for Victoria, IJ.C, (Mr. DeCoa-
mos) objected to the introduction of thai
piovision into that Act, becau.se lie con-
ceived it would bn in deiogat'on of the
bond, the fulHIment of which he so much
desired. In IHT"), during tho recess,
British Columbia having aj>peaIod to
Kngland, Lord <'arnarvon oU'ered his good
ollices. and he suggested certain terms, to
which, as far as they could, the tiovern-
mont agreed ; the statement of the ( SoTern-
nient being that they would do their best
to carry them out, astheywerc! not contrary
to tho spirit of any Parliamentary reso-
lution, or the letter of any enactment.
The Cfoverninent subsequently dedaied
that this exjiression was designed to indi-
cate that tlu-y were not intending to at-
tempt to transcend the taxation'resolution.
it is contended that they could do so, and
that they did in fact so bind the country
by their action, although Parliament
never continued it. I altogether deny
that the (.'xeciitive Governinent has any
general or implied authority of a nature
so extensive ; but were it olherwi.se, no
such authority could be implieil iu
the face of a distinct determination
by Parliament in an adverse sense ;
nor can any case bo imagined in which
there could be a inore decisiv(i dechu'ation
by Parliament of its ]iolicy that there
should be no increase of taxation for the
building of this Railway; and conscfpiently
a more clear limitati(.)n upon any cucli
supposed implied executive powers as are
s iggested. The Minister says that under
the Carnarvon terms there was an agiee-
ment to build the Islaixl Bailway, by
which .*;4,000,()00 were added «o the cost

wo
th(
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to (lu-

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litit ll'' KCCMIH to llU\i' f li-

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liicli le-

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proceed

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tlu' lion.
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teiiiis, to

(.iovern-
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declaied
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e country
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on for the
isequently

any niich
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that under

an agree-
ilway, liy
to tl'.e cost

golicii lliu' Ills own (Idxcijiment in IS"-"'
iiaii iMnic to tlic di t'-riniiiiit iviu >'...\{
the ft'iii.iinis of t!ie iuidw.iv slimild
Ih! at l']-(juini.il(, and tid-. di t'Tinihation,
if adli< cd to, )ieco."'Hanly iuvohcd the
con.iniciion of the IslaiH; Kailvay, and
ind; 1 d of fpiiier far mow e.\tc;i.sive ami
wistly \vork>>. I Jiarl taki u ociasitju in the
fall if 1H7I to d( dare my individual
views Oil the hidject of t!.e raeilic Rail-
way. 1 then stated thai i ihought the
fidliiment of (he iigrtcna ji; wiih JlritiKh
t)oluh.l)ii imji..^:,iljlr ; iii:;t unlesH fdit*
eho.se to he reasonuMe and to agree to a
rela.Niitioii of (he terms, T s-aw no hope of
perli'iniing them ; and (i.at, if she in-
sisted on sece^^ion, as the consequence of
the i»on-fnl(ilnit i'.( of (lie terms of Union,
r, for oi;e, V, ;is I repa!cd to say, " let her
go,'' rather (han ruin the c.juniry in the
atiempt lo piiform tJie im[)u,i&il>le, I have
never diMiigid that o|iinii.ii. and each suc-
ceeding _>ear has str<'ngtlu ik d Uiy view n.s
to tlu' wisdom and sou,l(inl^^a of such
a decision. liuring tho Sensiou of lt>77i,
when tlic^ Carnarvon correspon<lenc(i
was hrou^dit down, .1 did, as the
lion. geiitUm.iii says, ask the header
of (he (!.eu (.!overnna;.i ulaaher he
projio.sed (o invite the (•.auction of ri.rlia-
■ iieiit lo 'he ;rj'rnn;.H'm<nt. He I'cplied
that he ilid mt jirepose lo invite t!ie
action (f I'urlirment directly, lait vhat he
would lely on railiaiueiit lo enable him
to ci'.rry it out. Wi'll, that aii.swii' ofil-
.self iiidieaU'd ihaL liie a..s(nt of I 'ail ia-
inent \»'as essential. ^VilI anyone
seriously contend (hat the E.\ecutive
Goveiiimei.t of tliis country could, not
merely witluait tiie autiioritv of Parlia-
mont, hut in s[ii(e of tlu; anti-taxatiou
rosolutio;!, ii.ake an ag.tinu'iiL which
would of itself hind tlie country to build
tho Island liii ilway, to expend not less
than !i^2,Ol)0,U'j(l u year on consti'ucLion
in the mninhuid, and to liui^li the road
by 1890 1 It was, however, soon nmde
apparent that (lie action of I'arliaineut
^va.s necesBMiy in order (o carry out tho
Carnarvon terms. A Ihl! was of npccs-
sity brought in lo auihori-se the construc-
tion of the Ishuid Ilailwiiy, ouo of the
most impoitant parts of those terms. I
opposed that Ihll beciuu-e I believed
that the Island llaihvay was not
a judicious iindftrtaking, and also, and
chieijy because it was part of the Car-

nnrvoii d mi^, which T di.l \n>l believe
weie such us coniii be I'uily eairied out
consistently with tli.' (n.xalion re-:oiiition,
(o which I for one wr.s letei mimd (o
adhere. The Dill sui.eeeih il in tlrslhmse,
iait it fiiiled ill (he vSeiiute, and tlie nsult
was tliJit the s'Uiction of I'arli.mient waw
iefu-,ed to (hat t.ssential part of (h Car-
narvon terms. At the clo.se of (hat Sea-
sion then the w lioI(> (pip.-,tii,ii was open.
The iurtmgenient had failed. I'ariiament
had declined lo amli( rise an essential
part of the terms ; fultiluni.t of (he tei ins
had thus becouie impossilile, e.i.d it be-
came nece.ssory (o reronsid>'r tho whole
maUer. I believe that everyone to-day
coiicuix in this re.suk ; at any rate 1 do
not observe that the ( lov<rnnient now jiro-
po.sesto build the Island Jtailway. Shortly
afu^r the clo.se of the Session I entert (I
the Adndiiistiatlon upon a disdnct un-
dei'stamiing in n ferei.ce (o the Pacitle
Ilailwjiy. That understanding wuh (hat
the Carnarvon term.s Inning failed liy
reason of the action of Parliaiuent.a mod-
( rate moiii'y conipensatii)n slaaikl be
od'errd to the I'rovince f.ir jmst and
fiKiiro delays in the construc'ioii of the
Pacific Pailway ; that it was always the
understanding of the Ooveiniiient and (hat
it should be dhstiuctly stated, that «ny
pledge for fixed exjieudituie, or fort* (iiuw
limit, was subject (o the tnr.alion resolu-
tion, in such sort thai (he woi'k s! ould not
be necessarily jnoi-eoded with in case
it would involve an increase of
of taxation ; and, that any ariangement
maih; V itli with tliij Province should l>e
exine.ssly, as it must in fact be, suljeet to
the sanction of this Parliament. This
undeistanding was carried out by the
)\!inu(oof ('<aincil of September, 1875.
T>y that minute, referring to the former ne-
gotiutious,the(.»overniuent declared iia fol-
lows : —

" It must he (li.stiiu'Lly borne in ii i»il that,
every sttj) in tlic iiei()"intioii9 vas ne pti.-tarily
prcibtatid on .umI fub^ect to the cniKlitions of
tlio I'caolutic'ii of llS71.pa*.se(l ooi»icm|)0'aui;ous!y
M'itii tlie a(l(ij)ti(iii of the terms of Union witli
liritiih ('(iliau'iiia, bul;B-L'(|uently uiiiicUd iu tlie
Act of i87'2, ami iL'-ciiacted (^It'-r a lariio ad-
dition had h^-vn mn'ln to the rate of taxation)
ill tho Act of 1874, that the public aid .•should
consist of Kiich suhsidy in inouey, r.ot iiicreaB-
iiiii the then ixi.stinj.; r»(u of taxation, as I'ar-
li&ineut f-luai'.d dctoiniiiie. This dettTinination
not to invcdve the courtry in a hojiclcsa Inirden
of d^bt it) sustained by public opinion every-
where throughout the l)oniini«n, and must
necessarily coutiol tho action of the (joveru-

nient, and it cannot be too clearly undergtood
that an/ agreoinonta ok to j -arly exinnditure,
and ai to uoniiiletion hy a fixed tiino, must be
•ubjact to tlie condition, thricr recorded in the
Journals of I'arliamcnt, that no further increafe
in the rattr wf taxation nhnll be required in order
to their fulHlnicnt. The sanction of I'arlia-
munt to the conntruction of the ptopnted rail-
way from KBfjuimidt to Nftnivimo was necewarily
a condition iiroccdent to thu commencement of
the work. The other important features of the
arrangement, namely, tlio linntation of tha
time fur the comjiletion of a certain ]K)rtion,
and the fipoeitication of a yearly expenditure,
were (Itemed to he within tiio meaning of the
Act of 1874, cuhject, of course, to the cor.di-
tion alreaily mentiomd, which was ri-ferred to
in the minute of Decemher, 1874, when the
Govornment expressed ' a willingness to make
tliese furtiier couieHsions ' * as the con-
ccsxiiii.s >ugi,e~<ted nii^^lii In.' made without ia-
volvi j{ tiie violaticiii if tlie spirit of aiy I'ar-
liaiiie tnry resolution, or the letter of any
enactment.'"

TliP riovei-nnieiit tulilcd u jhoik'suI o^
§7"iO,U(JO as co!ii|t('iisitii»ii for ilflnys.
Uritisli ("Jiiliiiiiliifi icjci'tcd tlic |irf)ji(is!il,
rtiul iasirtlPcl oil tlic t'liililiiiciit of tin; CiU'-
narvoii terms; she urged tliat the iticTcaHc
of taxation wliirii Iiad (aki'ii jilaco in l.'^74,
«iid tlio Jiiiilway Act ot lliat yf;ir in-
volved an abandonment of tlic resolution
of 1S71, by wliicli slie contended that she
was never bound. On the l.'UIi March,
1870, the (Juvprnuieut rejoined by a
minute in which they showed that the
resolution of 1871 was not aiiandoned,
but was re enacted ; in whicli they ad-
mitted that it waii not part of the terms
of Union in IVrni, as lliey would have de-
sired, but argued that it could not be
wholly left out of account. The minute
added that " the pcojile of Canada would
not consent to enter unconditionally into
arrangeniiiius whit h though less onerouB
than the terms of Uinon would yet in-
volve such a Imrdo'i as nii/ht but for
the condition plunge the country into
ruin." The (iitveinmi'nt made no further
proposal, but ended the iiegotiatiouH by-
stating tliat. I'ritisli Coluniliia having
refused tiieir offer of Sc]deniber, 1875,
*' it remains only toendeiivourtoconstruct
tlie llailwav as rai)i(ll\' as the resources of
the country wovdd luMinit." Tiiese ndnutdj
were dispatched to the Secretary of State
for the C'ulcnies, and al.so to British
Columbia. During the Hession of 187G,
a vote, hcstile to tlu; [lolicy of the Gov-
ernment, and seeking to condemn it for
delay in the work, was proposed by the
hon. member foi'Victcria(Mr. DeCosmos).

Ft was Toted down with practical
unnnimity, thu li*n. member obtuiiung
but six or hovon HUpportors. I think all
the present Ministers vntrd ugaiust it;
and tlio present Fir«t Aliuiater
both spoke and voted against it, dwclaring
that the conduct of the h«n. nieiidier for
Victoria in in.siHting us he did on the ful-
tilitient of the tetuiM g(i^c rery good
colour and rea.son for thti chnrge contained
in the uiinute of the (lOTOnunenl that the
action of iSritish Columbia seemed more
inlluencotl by the d«i«ir« to se*' nuuiy
iniliioiin expended in tlieirmidst, than by
fhe wish tliat the enterprise nliould bo
carried on contistently witU the interests,
and artording to the resources of th«
country. J^ater iluring the Session the
coricspondence to which 1 Lava n ferred
was bi ought down, and tho House be-
cau»' posesst<l through ihene minutes of
the dceiaration of the policy of thv Govern-
ment, and of the whole statement of tli«
case. Tlie llou.se was made aware of tlit;
decisioi of the executive not to make any
fiiither ell'ort to obtain the authority of
Parliament for the construction of the
Island Kail way, and of their solemn
declaration that they had not intended ii\
the lormer n(!gotiati«n«, did not then
intend, and would not agree, to make any
unconditional agreements, to make any
agreements otherwise than subjeet to tho
taxation resolution. With this know-
ledge wo cume to the discussion of the
vote in supply for tho construction of tho
Pacitjc iiailway, and to that vote it was
proi)osed to add words declaring tkat the
grant was made '• with the view that
the arrangements for tho constniction
of the Itailway shall be such as the rt;-
ources of the country will permit with-
out increasing the existing rates of tax-
ation." That vote was moved after the
occurrence of all tho e'vents to whidi
th(! hon. the Minister of Ivaiiways has
alluiled as imposing such dreadful re-
s|ionsibilities upon him and his friends.
He has not indeed sj)oken consistently
upon this point, fur after all these events,
after the making of the.sc terms by which
lii> alleged we were more tightly bounil
than l>y tho.si; of (he Union, he declared
to-night in one part of his speech that, we
^s•ero obliged by them to tlo what? to
finish by 181)0 '( No ! he says ho does not
hold himself bound to do that. To
s[.end !i?2,000,{)U0 a year ? No! he says

practical
ohtuitiing
think all
^uiuHt it ;
MiuiBtcr
(Uolai'ing
Dinger for
111 the fuU
cry goo<]
contained
t that th«
Mieil nior*
spc many
',, than hy
<hoiihl be
inttTORts,
•n of tlie
jssion the
% n Icrrcd
[loiis;e h»'-
ninutfs of
li) tiovern-
mt of tilt;
ftie of tht!
make any
tbority of
on of tlie
ir solemn
itencU'tl in
not then
ntakoi any
make any
A«i to the
lis know-
)n of the
ion of the
ote it was
I that the
view that
ustmction
as the re-
mit with-
es of tax-
ttfter tlie
to which
ways has
Radfnl re-
is friends.
)nsistently
'se events,
by which
itly bound
: declared
h that, we
what ? to
fy does not
that. To
1 he says

lie docm not hold hiinsi^lf bound to do ; continuous and unvarying,' jiolicy of Tir-
that. To build the Island Hailway I No I liament was before, and after, and not-
ho does not «'ven jiropose to do that : so
that whiln the hon. gentleman at one

breath cries out : '' I am bound !" " I an\
hound !" " f am bound !" like hiniHelf, hu
turns rouml the next mouient and e.x
claims : " I am free !" " T am free !" " I am
free!" Ibit, Sir, after all these enlftuglinf,'
nej^'otiations, after all thesf* eliains and
fetters had been wound round this un-
happy fiiuntry by the late unfortunate
Administration, it had prior to the vote of
1><7(!, fully deelared its meanin;,' ; it had
taken its stand, it hiul declared that it
woidd not recede '^from or aliaiiHon the
I'arliainentary policy of the tiow increase
of taxation. And tlu' vote to winch I
liav(^ alluded, wa-<, uinler these ciri;un\
stajices carried, not by a party majority,
but by a united House. Tin- vote was 14'.»
to 10 ; anioiiL,' the majority were a larL,'(>
number of mend)ers and supporters of the
present ({(iNeinmeiit. I lin<l in the
niMJority four of the pi-eseiit Minis-
ters, Messi-s. i/mgevin, Masson, Bowell
and Baby. T find there also, many active
membeis of the party includiiij,' you. Sir,
Messrs. Cameron, of Victoria; Caron,
f'osti.'.'an, DesjariUiis, Ifa^^gart, Kirk-
patriek, McCallum, Moussciui, Orton,
Ouimet, I'lund), Itobinson, llochestcr,
and Whitc! ; l>esidcs many others; in all
forty-two, out of the snu\U contin![;ent
which, at that time represented the Tory
party in this Hou.se. We were on that
occasion nearly unanimous. In that
year, 1S7G, low^ after the makinj,' and
failure of the Carnarvon terms, and after
the (lovernm<'nt had fully declared its
meaning,' and i*^;; policy, this Housi; was
almo'rt unanimous in favour of the view
that the country was entitled to say, and
was bound to say, and we did in the
name of the country say that the ar-
ran''cments for the construction of the

roatl

sliou

Id 1

)e such as

le i('soinv(>s oi

the country would permit without in-
creasing the existing rates of taxation.
This is ths fourth vole recorded by Par-
liiimeiit in tln> same sense. N(

1 cli

that T have proved that ap,\rt from the
serious, the dicailttd, f hope not the fatal
error of 1;^71, in declining ro engraft
upoti the terms of Union this liniKation —
an error for which the Liberal purty is not
resiioiisiijle, bccansi; it did its iiONt to

withsritamling the (Carnarvon terms that
this road should iu)t be so constructed aH
tl ncicessitate uny increa.so of taxation.
What hiippMied after the Session of I'^Tl't 't
The surveys hud been prosecuted; .some
contracts were let, sonm progre.ss was
mmle. The Session of 1S77 arrived.
Was there any proposal from the Opposi-
tion declaring that we should proceed
faster with tin' work, anything to idter
the view taken in 1S7(; j Nothing I The
Session of 1S78 followed with the same
result, m)r did aught occin- to shake the
d^lilterate, solemn and repeatedly allirmed
declaration of I'arliament on this subject.
I'ut, nu'antina ,fintlier progiTss was made,
and to soni'' en(iuiries tiie (lovtrnninit
answered that it hoped to lie able shortly
to advertise for tenders for tin? wiiele
work on the lund and money ba.sis, sub-
ject to the ap|>roval of riirliameiil. It
was the policy of the (!ovenin;ent at the
earliest nionieut at which the condition of
the surveys would jiermit, to t.^ke that
st(>p,and .so to give a fair trial to tiic plan,
the only plan by which the road could be
constructed in any short time without in-
cri'iising the r.ite (tf taxation ; ain' if that
trial failed.it was obvious the \\hole (jues-
tion must be opened afresh for con.-idera-
tion, and that it would lio the duty of
the ( JovernmiMit to consider of a n(>w
policy. Well, an advert isemint was i.s-
bued in May, lfS7S, I believe, for tend(aM
for the whole; line upon the land ;in<l
money basis, and sidisetiuently, I l» lieve
in August, fiU" the construction of the
midilh; part of the eastern link, I think
in three sections, and aho f(jr the line
from Yale to Kandoops. I had then long
ceased to be a nu^ndier ot the (Jovetnment,
was not even in the country, and knew
nothini,' about the matter until a f(;w
months ago. Of course, it follows that
I am not able to Nay anything on the
subject of my own knowledge. My hon.
friend (Mr. Mackenzie) has already
stated the circinnstances \inder wliicli
tliat adveitisement was i.ssued, with a
view, whih^ y<t the tenders wero being
asked for t!ie construction (jf th,; whole
line ujon tlu; land Jind money basis, to
obtain all the information possible, on all

aUcrnative plans, so as to be ablt; to j)re'
serit it to Parliament with suc'i [)olicy as

avert it ; that apart from thai error the the (JovernnKMit might ultimately deter-

iiiiiif \\\(>\\. I'lit it w<piilil liiivc Iwcti fi
I'.'idii'.il I liiiii.;" ill llm |ioli('y of tim (ii)\'-
irmiiunt us aiiiioiinccil hh tin' |)"o|i1'' of
• liirt country, ecit:iialy us I uiiilid'.sUtud

it llitd till' (ilAiTlllltOllt, llfliT til"

n'Pi'iitt f)f tlh'S" ti'iirl<-iM, |)foi"Hi(l to l';ir-
li;llli.'Iit llic Kilislni .tirill of till' 1 •_'.'» Iliilrs
in I'.ritihil ('.(liiiiiliia iis ii ( !i)vciiiiiiiiit
woik ; aii'l if tlu-y li-vil jn'oposcd it. tin-
lion, till' .Miiiihtii-of ISiiilwiivs wniiM li!ivi«
found ni'', f.'i lio ciniijiliiins I Knin'-tiiiii's
wiiH, rcstivo a;,'.ii)i. f would h.ivo
dcfliircil it xviis inipussililc in niy vli'w lo
car.'V out iniy t.Ui-li ]h Jii y iMii^istiuitly
with the fovnicr i'('v)!iil inns, nnl I wiuld
li;iv(' ()]i|iost'd it. will) what cll'ii't f know
not, lilt \\ illi wliii; I'lnir.stiii'.vi I rould.
r liiid ll.t'u notliinu ]M'ovin;^' an •illi'r.ition
of jiiih" 'y on t!io [lai-'. of tlio < lover, iiin'nt
or of I'lU'liaiucnt on <'ii>< ijU'-Mtiou unlil
thi' Si'^si'ii of \^7'.\ 'rh'>:i, iiidfcl, t! crn
wan a i'!iMn:^i\ 'Jl;'> iu(w OuVi-rniM nt
liavin;.;' Im'cu foviH t! in ill" uicantimi',
tlm jriMud ) loji.isiil iif iiut SoHsiou wan
liroiLdit forv.-.irl, '!'!»( hnn. ;L.;<'ntl«'niim
(Sii- t'harlr.-s Tupiirr) says, lio is goin.^ to
.1,'ivi' u-4 auot!i( 1' Ii.ilcli of rcsn]u(Inn.'4, aUif
111' r» ad V8 vinu' of tli«';o ln\'ii-llown
icHolutinns !;(> liroui.';!'.! d'iwn Ir.st Session.
Tlicy indi'Mtc tin.' i-iinraoti'r '•( the woi-k
in llio viow of tlit> lion. ."Mithnnm, Iho
rflali^us ni" tl.is coiiiitry as wi'll a.; tli'-
ivlatinnf) of the I'jiijiiro to Ui<i work, and
till' nio.lo in v.Iiif]i a!. -mi it ran l>o su-jcoss
fully jn'OM'c'U'cd. The iinst declares that
an cu!,^;'.;^pni("nt \,'>va (utorod into with
Britisli t'ohuuhia, hu!, it says nr.thi;i,i; of
any onijagoinciit with the Inijifiial (lov-
frnnirnt or Lord C.irnarvon, now so
much talkt'd ahout, to oonstrui't the road
Not, howevor, hy ar.y (ipciTn'd time ; on
tho (.'ontrnry, I IJnd I'lo (rov(M'nnioiife hy
thi.i resolution d'-clavingtlic (.'outi-act to ho.
Uiat the lino slunild ho eonstrudod witli
all i-.r.K!tica1ilo spocl. Norct, t!:fr(' is a
decl.iration th:it tlio Canada Pacitic IJail-
wiiy will ho a L'wat Tnijicrlal hi<,diway,
and so forth. TIk n (h'rc is adcolar.ition
ahout iho unprofcvh-ntcd Htatr- of enforced
idleness of tho British working elaasfs,
and (ho jio'-sihiiify of a sclienie of relief
on a lHrq;o lioale heir.,,^ found indi.spcn.'salde
to alievialo tho destitution. Tho lion,
gentleman, not copt.-nt wiih talcinir ehtu-'p
of tho Kiill'erinr,' thoFi.sauds of {'aniid":n:S,
and rtiiev)!!!.' hy his legishition all the
misfortunes umier which o\ir ] r.or
4,000,000 arc laijouriiijj, in the largentss

of liis Inart, anl tho tint;.^niiii'!(' of hin
resour.'i's, took eharxe of tli" ii'icnijihiyo I
piiorof Knifhind ; and hy his wir, and that
of tho Iiii|ieri:il ( io\ I'rniaeiit to^'i'ther,
thi< j^reat selienit.' of outdoor rehif ho iur
outdoors an tho North- West — w.ih tu l»e
c.irried out for tho relief of t!iedi'stit\iti.in
of tlie sullerini,' |ioor in (Jroat I'rilaiii.
'I'lien Ih" resolution intioilueed tho con-
si met ion of I lie Call id ill' I I'aeirh- Ilailway,
which was to aH'orl iiiiiue li il^i ("ii]ih)y-
luent to :i vast iiuiiiher of wurknii n, open
up vast (raei i of fertile liiid for occupa-
tion and tliiis form a r>','.dv oillet for tlin
ovnrpnpuIal''(| <lislriols of tlrcit ihitaiii
!Mid other Ivti'opi'i'ji i'ountrie-. A:idthn
( loveriiiicut i-t autiioriscd mid dii'i'eled to
procure tho substantial .■i":ii.st;;iioo of the
imperial (hiveriim 'ut hy '^m iianty or
otherwis',' t iwards the excoulion of the
project as n national work ; aiida huudnd
millions of acres of land ar.( .'el apart
for the purpos • of sup] lyin;,' f;indH.
Then there is a resilulioii lo alter
the route; an an'ai)j^''m.'iit fir 1 aildint;
a short e:ctension tVou Selkiik, and
a proposition th.it it is expediiu.t to ni.ike
fiilher e.\pl,)rations in tl.o IVaee and Pino
Kiver districts ; tlien the'(( is a declara-
tion that in the opinion of the lli-n-e tho
selection of tho Durrard Tnlet t- laiims
was premature : upon v.hic!) I sliall say no
iiioro, than that if in tho year IK78, with
ail tho information l!iat was thcji ohiained,
it wa.s pr,-^niature to doci lo tint Ihirrard
Inlet »hoi;ld h? the terniliius, how prema-
ture was it lor lion, e-entlemen o]>jK)'>ito to
di cide th:U I'lsipiimait should h.» t'lo ter-
minus in IS";}? That is (he ]ir; Meiii,
tho arithmotieal calculition, whi' h I shall
d|siro tho hon. ^'on!hni.i'i to luiswer.
Tlie hon. gentleman hui^'hs at I;. Wo
know that whenever the lion, "iivfe
IMiuist.'r heai-s an awkward question h;^
ti;rns it oir v.ith a lau'^li, hut it v.li! !'•
admitted that tho hon. mcmher for
Lunhton, and the House and tho country
knew nioro iii 1878 ahout v>hat should ho
tho terminus than any one could know in
1^73. Therefore, if it was not pn-maturo
to select Esouimult in 1^'7's i^ could not
hn premature to select another t Mininus
in ISVS. Then there is a resolution
tint it is ne(!essai-y to keep e'ood
faitli with Ijriti.sh Columhia ; and then
there is a provision, the sting of
wliich is in the t.sil. The lith resolu-
tion declares that the Government bo

IK' I hiH

ii'lll|ilnVO I
, MIkI lllllt

'.< i' K,i» !jU'
S>M'\ I » III)

(li'.stituli.ui
I 1-riliiiii.
1 tli<- (on-
• llii! .viiv,

■! ("Iljlloy-
1)11 II, <l]ll'll

'lie uci;ti|ni.

t!<'t for tlio

it r>i'i(iiiii

A 1.1 tl...

ii'.'c:t>:l to

l!il«} <lf tllC

I i;i; I ty or
in;) if tho
I ii Iiiiii'lrtil
^ ,'tl :iliillt
ill;; i'ludH.
I lo iiltcr
ir 1 '.lildiiiy
Ikiik, iiiul
III Lo iii.'iivo
(^ and riiio
!i dt;cliil'ii-
lloiiso tho

t tf^'-lililUlH

;!i;il) say no

IK78, with

iioUtiiinod,
it nurmrd
low jircma-

oj)j)()'>ito to
jA thi! tcr-
lit' ur; 'dcui,
hi' !i I .shall
to iMiswor.
,t i;. Wo
licii. "irxt
[ucsiiou lia

it \vill 1)0
iciriljor for
tho country
t should Ito
lid know in

Itni nature
it could not
r t.^nninns

resolution
kiH'p o'ood
; and then
slii,^ of
1th rcHoln-
rimiont bo

uiitho' ist'd to iiiiiko fiiilln-r rxjiloratioiiH,
iind to niter into iKnitr.ietH fur eiiisduct-
iti^ a portion of iho line in Colninliiu not
cxeeediiij,' l2'i iiiih'.s in li'ii;,'th witlioiit
tile faiihor K.uiclioii of P.iiliiinii nt. Mere
for th" liiMt time do \\t' find ilr> [I'liry of
ii'.itldiii;; a railway iii ISfili'l. ( 'olinuWiii
aH a < »ov«'rnuietit work l>roii;;lit »lo\vii l»y
the ( Iii'.cnini'iit for tliv' eoiisidenifion of
i'.nliaiie'nt and ndoptcd hy I'.irli.iiiient,
VV^'ll, on \\h it VMS it tli.lt this p.'ul yf the
(}o\ernineiit |> >liiy was lt;iii'd f Onwliat
was it th.ti l!;e ilouso was asked to hurry
into an en,<{u^,'enn>nt to coinineneo, hh a
(ii)s*rnnn'iit vv.)ik, \'2r> miles in I'riiidi
< 'oIiiin')i,t J Win it Ujioii Liomelliiii;^' old or
up 111 souietiiiii^' nvx I \Va« it ii|ion
soiMi'Lliiii.;- fresh { Ye.s. The 1. ill. ;,' 'ntlii-
111. 1.1 poinii'l out, that there wen- huiidredi
of thoiiiinds (f uii'MiipIoyed poor in
Ku'^dand. lie i^'fcrr.'d to tli.>ir iiiis'-ry
uul d.'.-liluii 1)1. he said it w.iuld Iim iii-ros-
K.ary lur the l']ii;;l!:di (Joveruinent to pro-
vidi) .s inie iiirKH for tl."ir r.-liiif. !!■•
Jiointed to whiit ho was Jl^oiu;^ to do in
Kii;,diind. lloMi ho and his coIle.i,::;iies
iloehirel that the .seheiiu' pOHsewed cert.iin
clainenL ; of sucr.ess. The ilrst 7tIiijis((M"
declared it must and would siiccod. He
Kixid tliat Iht-y would f.-o home ; that tlijy
would enlist tho Kyinji.ithlis of tho
Impf>r'i.l 'loveiTini.'i*- ; <hat Ib'y V'>ii! 1
obtain the co-operation Trhich they
Holiciti5(l, and which this lIou^•:o au
tliori.sed th"m to obtain, tho Ii.ii:,ri;il
aid. by guar.iuteu or othorwi:,!-, to-
wards the cou.struction of lliin line.
Tliey went home, siiul, like other ]ie )pie
who have ^'une hoiuf?, they came b;ifk
again. iJut, Sir, allliou^'Ii we heaivi a
/:;roat deid of some matters iliey
transacted, ulUiou^di the Finano'; Min-
ister's loan, and tho Jilii.'.ier of
llailw.iy's piiiviiasos of r.iils wcrt>
told to u.s over .-uul over again, until we
got more tired than ever of discussing tho
rate of intero:-it npon loans and the pric ^
of steel-rails — aUhough, I say, tlevsc proofs
of liuancial and coaimei'oial ability wcr.;
discussed (id nunsiuiin, not a word wa.^
heard upon tho great mission — upon tho
priuciji.il point. What in the world is
tho diil'erence whether we gi t on<;-haif
P'l' coat, moi'o or less on a loan of a few
laillion dollars? What iu thi; world is
the dilforence whether wo Iniy steel r.iils
ut .«;21-. 10 or i?25.40 coinpanvl wiih the
other question 1 Very important thiiig.s

both; liut \v!iit in the w /il i do we euro
about theso ipH'sliolis compare I witli tlliit
of o''t.iiniiig u i.oillid lilul s ilid Imsis of
Inijifrial aid for the coiiil.riic!'o:i of the
Canadian I'.i- ilio Mailway I W h»iv««
h ardiigre.u deal of the mint n-id the
anisu and the cviniin, lait of the w.'igliMer
iinlter., of the law very litilo indeed.
.N'ow, why this silence i V.'e have
elide., voui'ed to <dieit ilil'onu i! ion on
t'liu Hul'ji'ci. [, my.s' If, \cnt'ir d t >
put a iiueslioii , or I .v.', I en-
d' avouiel to dr.tw out the lion, -ontle-
maii on tho Address, and Knb+Mjn- iitlv by
a tiue.-iiion, but t-iill there w.is jllence,
Wc aui'ioiis-d ihe (Jovcrniu.'ntto proceed
to Knglaiid ti* aceoiiipllsh ani.it impor-
tin'. work, b it n it a w;ed ii tol I of tiie
r.'sult. S aii.Uhi.ig, iieU'cd, v.-^h told.

I (Vi, ye^. We asked wlu'th'n* my nrraiige.
meiu had been m.ide, any pnniii o hud'
bi.'v'ii given, and wo w u'c toll t'l .e hid
not. Some ]ir.'.son as'cel tic same
ipif.;li,.n ill the Imperiil rar'.ianient,
ami the answer w.l.i the simo iUit,
to night, wo ar.) told , that these
.Ministens at homo are «lip!oiii,kt!c, that
ilieiv w.iH in elfect a secret umh-: standing,
that they were deeply intere.^te 1 — O, sf)
dcejily i.itercsted— in thl.-t mutter. The

!. Minister i.^ jnow abla to .stato this
fict, p.rha|is— may I ventnrn 1 1 .-aig^ t
-—with greater contM'nco than he would
have done b-fore tho lit" elections.
lie says, in'leed, that tho Jjiitisli (loy-
enuneut did not want to b.^ handi-
capped at those election.s by any promise.
Dut, Sir, if this scheme for rrlii-\ ing un-
employed J'ritona by sending tliein out
to our North -We.st'w.H to b- an a 1 van-
tage for tho Ih'itish j.eople, why should
it bo unpopular! Wiiy not procl.xim it
on every bust ing.s ? Why not maku it a
battle cry iu tlie clectioaa ? Jbit, the
hon. gentlcnuu .say.-J that would
not do ; t!;e jieople wer.; not
to know. It was like a cer-
tain arrangement which was agreed
to in this piirtof the world, wltli reference
to this name Pacific Tinilv.ay, which
"should ba kept ipiict until after the
elections." It \\ now, however, alleged
that there was a liargain. Well, it semis
to me that llie h';n, geiitlem u.'s pi uis in
England, und.^r these circum-stmces,
failed. It was because the lion, gentle-

I man found that it Wijuld l>e nsel -ss for

I him to comiuunicato oilicially that he

lins iiothint,' to j^lvo us. It was
beca\is(3 his informal and coiiti-
dential coniinunications resulted un-
favouraltly, that as Hir Mieliael Hicks-
Beac-h says, there was nothing put on
jiap(>r, and t.lio hon. gontlonion came hack
lierc witii no more assurances than tliey
had lipffire they loft Canada. This we kno w
beciiuse the hon. gentleman has made a
Btatcincnt to us on the subject, ho has
told us what liis expectations are.
He has told us the resolutions he is going
to bring down. There is to bo a resolu-
tion modifying the ])lan for the sah; of
the lauds. Instead of selling them at $■_*
an ai re ail r >uud, they havf; adopted
anotlier plan, .uid want to modify thi.s
res(^lutitin acrordingly. Hut we hear
nothing a'lMHit further resolutions touch-
ing Imperial aid. Still, the hon. gentle-
man says he had many cnn-
fetiMices with politicians «nd capi-
talists, and till' I'"inance Minister made
complete arraiigeuieiits for ell the funds
that may be re(piir«d for the oomplelidii
of the Paciiic Ilailway from sea to sea, so
that, as fast as he wants it, he can get
the money, jirovided we give him
authority to rais« the taxes required to
pay principal and interest. lie says also
that ttie prusjiPtt of an Imi)erial guar-
antee from Mr. Forster, if he is to be the
new Colonial Secretary, are tjuite as good
as weie the pr()sp(>ets of a guarantee by
the l?eacons(ield (lovcrnment. That may
be so, and I dare say it is so ; but the
reason given by the hon. gentleman was
a speech which ]\lr. Forster hud delivered
at the Cohudal Institute. My lion.
frit-Mul's meuuiry is of that character nf
which memories often are. He remem-
bered what was agreeable, and forgot
what was }iaiul'ul. lie remeniliered w.'dl
]\Ir. Ferstei's diplomatic suggestion, that
" he was not sure that it n)igl)t not be
advisable for the Government to be very
liberal in these matters," and he turjis
that into a promise. But as to the qtihl
pro qui), Free-trade with liritain, which
Mr. lAirster suggests the hon. gentlejuan
utterly forgot all about that. Mr. Foi'slcr
says that the liberality must not be all on
one side ; that it is not fair to ask the
Mother Country for assistance, .and tlieu
to throw obstacles, by nmins of I'l-otec-
tion. in the w;iv of their disi)osin!' of
thi'U- nianutactures in the Colonies.
Well, I will say, franklv, that if tho

arrangement for aid from the Imperial
fJovernment should turn out to be one for
a guarantee oidy, I am not at all cei'tain
it would be a blessing to this country that
the guarantee should be obtained. It is
true the ginirantee would enable us
to raise money at a lower rato
than that at which we aie raising
it. It is true, al.so, that it might
enable us to rai.se money which wo
could not raise at all without the guar-
antee, lint it will not hf Ip us to pay tho
money we borrow ; and I do not think it
always a convenient thing to have
facilit'os for borrowing money, un-
less we see also that there
arc! commensurate facilities for I'cpay-
ing it. The cxijlorations which tho
(Jovennuent took authority to make, re-
sulted in a report by tho Chief Engineer,
in which he suggested that they were? so
fur favouraltle to the northerly I'outo as
to reiuler it ini|ii'oper to commence at
that tinui construction in IJritish Colum-
bi;i, and expedient to make further ex-
plorations. The (jovernment, howevei',
decided advers'ly to that view, and
determined to linally adopt the routt; to
Burrard Inlet. Now, even with all the
haste thnt was used in reaching this
decision, it had bi-come impossible at that
time to fulfil tho arrangements, on tho
basis of which Parliament had been asked
to authorise the letting of these contracts
without its sanction. That basis was,
tluit the work should l>e commenced in
Britis'h Cohnnbia, in 1879. But tenders
were not called for till near the end of
1S79. The iirst contracts were not let
till Decembei" of that year, and the last
I was not let until the lOth February,
! 1880, two days beforethe meeting of this
Parliament; so that, for several reasons,
the grounds upon wdiich the hon. gentle-
man had asked Parliament to give him
special authority, had failed. They hail
failed in this, that the construc-
tion could not be commenced
\nitil after Parlianu'nt was in S(;ssion,
and, thfM'i'fore, there was no ground for
the action; they had failed in this thitno
incf)nvenience or delay would bi^ causcid
by waiting for the assi.Mit of Parliament.
Another ground on which the authority
jfiven l)v Parliament ouuht not to havo
lie(Mi exercised, is tins: the House was
led into iho adoption of the scries of
rciolutions in which this authority is

o Iiiiporial
Ixi Olio for
t all certain
country that
ned. It is
enable us
lower rato
[lie rai.sing

it might

which we

it the giiar-

i to jiay the

not think it

to have
loncy, ini-
lat thon^
fur ripay-
which the
n make, re-
'[' Engineer,
'v wvvc; so
rly I'oute as
nunenee at
tish Coliini-
furtlier ex-
t, h<i\V(!ver,
view, and
10 route to
ith all th<>
urhing thin
.ible at that
Its, on the
been asked
se contracts
basis was,
inioiK-ed in
]>ut ti'iiders
the end of
vcre not lot
I the last

Felji-nary,

ting ot" this

al reasons,

ion. g(!ntle-

give him
They had

eoiistruc-

comnienced

in Si.'ssioii,

ground for

this tliitno

1 be caused
.'arliamont.
le autliority
not to have
i louse was
le scries of
authority is

contained on the statement made by the
Government as to the certainty of their
guccess in obtaining Imperial aid. They
■wholly failed in that ; the basis for the
authority disappeared, and, therefore, the
aourse they pursued in using the aiithority
was in this as well as the other parti-
culars censurable. Again, the report o
the Chief Engineer justified, and in fact
rendered [iroper further investigation be-
fore fixing on the route. This contract
which they have let without the sanction
of Parliament will reach, according to
the estimate, $1», 100,000, and with the
rolling. stock, rails, etc., the lino will cost
certainly not less than §10,000,000, ac-
cording to the tenders. That is the esti-
mate, 1 observe, from the lion. Minister's
Btatement, which the Chiet Engineer now
makes with reference to the contract.
The lion. Mini-ter observed that he ha<l
adopted an entirely ditterent jiractico
from that of Miis juedetessor with
reference to the letting of contracts.
He said tli(! contracts on the eastern end
had been let on imperfect surveys muiI in-
adequate information, wliicli had resulted
in great losij a'ld in the disappointment of
expectations which had been formed. He,
however, undertook to pursue a diU'erent
course, to secure conipJeto investigation
and absolute certainty, as far as certainty
can be obtained in these matters, as a pn;-
liminary to the lettinir of his contracts,
and I think the rule he laid down was an
excellent one. I think the fullest in-
formation ought to be obtained in the in-
terests of tlie country, with reference to
the character of the work, and so forth, be-
fore the work is let. We know the reasons
which iiuhu ed such departuri' as w.as
made from this custom in the oarlier
days of letting this work, when the hon.
ni(!mber for Cumberland, then in Op-
position, cheered the then First Minister
when he announced his intention of at
once letting tlie c iitracts. If the principle
which the hon. Minister so ostentatiously
put forward as governing his action was
specially a]iplical)le anywheie, that point
was British Columbia. Ibit how far the
hon. gentleman's practices on this matter
conformed with his pr<tensi(,ns is to l)e
touiid ill tlie memorandum to the
schedules for the Columbia, section, which
were submitted for the infornKition of in-
teiuiing tend(n'eis. There will be found
there a note in these word.s :

"Some of the quantitits are estimated from

Erclimiiiary location meaaurcnienti, and may
e considered roughly approximate. Otlitr
items are merely conjectural, ami aro placed
herein for the purpose <>f obtaining rates."

This was the thorough, exhaustive, minute
and detailed survey ; this was the accu-
rate information which tho hon. gentle-
man got before he let the Yale Kaniloops
contract 1 Some of the estimates are
simply roughly approximate ! (Jthers are
merely conjectural and are placed for the
purpose of obtaining rates ! As to the
eastern contracts, if I am i ightly informed,
there was no information of any material
consequence in the hon. gentleman's hands
which was not in the hands of the hon.
member for Lambton before ho left ollirc.

Mr. PLTTMB: Section 15 /

Mh. PiLAlvE: If my hon. friend will
allow me to continue, he will .soon have
an oiiportunity to enliven tho ifo'.isc with
one of his short speeches. It may bo
p(n'mitted to a person who has not gone
over the ground, who has not eviMi made
a preliminaiy location measurement, who
has not even made a conjectural estimate
of tho items, to makn a conj(!cture
in the gross, based upon former ex-
perience, based on former reports,
based upon what is kno^rn of o'Jier sec-
tions of the I'ailway, and from what has
happened as to other roads, bused on the
general experience of the woi-'.d in ri'fi r-
ence to estimates of this descri|ition ; and
my conjecture is that this road is as likely
as not, instead of costing $IO,00(),0()0 to
cost $12,000,000 or more. Tins contract",
however, provide, as tho hon. gentleman
as said, that the (jovernment may suspend
operations if the vote is expended at any
time, or in case tho jiublic interest re-
quires, a su.spen.sion of the work, and may
in such case cancel itlie contract ; and
that in no case will the contractor lie er.-
titled to damages by reason of loss of
protits, but only to expenses incurred in
coun(>ctiou with the collection of material
and work already done. The Georgian
Bay branch contract was lately cancelled
by tlu! (io\ernnient under siiiiihir pro-
visions. Tlie hon. gentleman has Ktate(l
that he exi)ects the expenditure next year
on this work will not exceed .« 1,00(1,000,
but, although ]i08sibly u) more than
^^ 1,000,000 may bo' expended th«
lirst year, yet it is certain, ac
csrding to the estimate forunMJ of ten
millions, and if the work is to be carried

oni nctoiding to the terms of the con-
tiiU't, which piuviilcH U)V its toiuplvitiou
in five y.ivH, ilia'. ;iii iiveriigf of two iiiil-
lioii.s a \K :ii* will U.' r(M|uii td, niitl it' we are
goiugti.; caiu'UcI o-iI> .si, (;(;(.),(. UO iiextycar,
this int;:;i.-i li.iit, lh<'i-(! will lie a larjier
ainouiil f.;j.i;iid(?,l relatively in tlie lo!-
lowii.i;' \( airt. lioii^iily, we are iiivoiscd
liy tli;-. I-. hliiut. ill nil ii\ciii;.'e e\]Kiuli-
ture (1' ^;i,(JU(>,viO(t a ytar i'or tin; next
live V'Mw, aii'l n the road ce.st.s
81-,06u,i/0U, ( hen oL', 100,000 a year lur
the Kiin.e time will he leciuii^ d. The
liDii. gintlciii.Ji lias Kaid that ilie load,
\vliii:]i is in li,,) midda; of i)ii;i.sh Culuiu-
hia, v.ill 1)0 a pietty f;ood thiii.i,'. It
start,;, it is iiiic, at a ])oiiit fruin which
the occiui is uecc-s.sihle l.y li.i.dit st.'Hiueis ;
ib runs a cuhsidcrahle distame into tiie
interior, Ijiit, as i'ar iis I can t-i.^erve, con-
fiiderin;,' th(> coiuiitiuii (if tl.c country,
it.s ].()) tiiation, its eapaliiiilics for early
settl!.i.;ent, thLs may 1 c naid oi it. that it
oej^ius novvla ri!, ends noMla:i\', and
will serve no earl lily ]iuiiio.;e. I quite
agrct! that in the conslriiciioii of the
Pac'ilic IJaihvuy as a throu;:!! line, by the
Currard Jiilct route, ilus raight have
liteu the Iksv jioint to coniiiieni.'e at, but I
am si>eakiiig of it as it is. The lion, gen-
tleman has prepaied a ina]>, which lie laid
<iu tlie TaUc ill th' cou;-.i8 of hi;i t;pve. h,
as &Iiowiii,;- wiiat recent ox|)loration.s cTiu-
viiK-e Iiini i:i the state of the country,
M'ith refer''iico to its cni/acity for wttle-
iiioiit. ^Tithout turning at this time to
that portii.u wliicJi alieots the Nortli-
Wesit, I woidd desire the particular
attention of my lion, fiieud the memlier
ior Vancouver, to that portion of the ma|)
whjcli le^irescnts the Province oi Pritish
< 'olumUia. The hon. member will observe
that the parts which are nuii'kcd brown
are barren and iiuiit for any thin-'. The
]untrt leit white emiirace cwtaiu small
tracts in which peoiile may Ihid a living.
The l.on. xMinister, iii the early part of
the evening, insulted my lion. iVieiid by
calling his country inhospitabl(>, and my
hon. friend will se« what a double insult
is conveyed in Ui^ laying on the Table a
map showing tlie bulk of the Province un
fit for settli-ment.

Mu. lUJNH'i'IUl: I would like .o ask
my hon. friend if he did not liave that
map coloured on purpose.

Hh. liLAKE: Z.Iy hon. friend no
doubt beiioves that I am the only pertjou

who v,(ai](l have ventured to|iroiirw sueli
a ma]). Jiut it is not my ma|i. It is the
map of the hon. .Minister of Railways,
who has done the hon. memlier i'or Van-
c(ui\(i- "blown." Jt is not to be sup-
posed, liowivcr, that all thin white firound
is availalile i'or while men. Tlieie i.s a
large ]iortion of the laud e\i'n there,
which tilt" lioij. the Minister of Hallways,
ill theeaily )ioiiion of tjii^ evening, rightly
calhd inhi.sjiitabie. r\,<r example, the
nci'thern pari of the tract left, white
is r..selcss, in coiisc'iueiiec ef
c'imatie intlueiice.s. Aithoiigli there
aie some jiortions of land in
it, v/iiicli are licli enough to be cul-
tivated, yet the. climate jueveuls their
ip. ii.g setilcd, but in tlie lower ]>(irii(jn
thei'.! is a little land capaljle of seitlenient,
as the lujii. gentleman ha.s ,^!iid. ^Vt the
didta of tiie Kiaser Ptiver, there are some
'100,0(11) acres of hind capable of setlle-
meid, tlunigh I believe some of ii reijuiies
dyking in order to make it useful. East
of the Fraser Itiver there are (MO.OOO .
acres, or l.OtfO .s<juare ndleK, at the out-
side, according to the s,tatniient iii. the
olticial report, of land capal le of t-ettle-
uient ; and wt'st of the IVaser lii\er there
are 192,000 acres, if &o small a (jitantity
is vvortii mentioning. There is of arable
land l,i;0U,O'.i) acii's, not iiliog' i iier, but
ill three divisitms, and each ol these is
lirokeu by hills, valleys and liver.i, so that
the C(uintiy can only becoiii{> a i'ew small
detached .settlements at bi sL J^et me
read you an extract from the report of
Mr. Marcus iSmith, your Assislai)t-( 'hief-
Enginecr, made in 1879, and brought
down the other day ; lie says :

' rroin tlio. Uivcr Pembiiin we:<t.w;!i<i poross
,.e Ibujky Moantaiu'f, ami l)y ii cliaiii of valleys
o Fort Hcijie tlic (libtniicij is (-O.". iiel. «, of this
(ii:'y 0'2 mill's Iravcr.se a c<anitiy tit f<ir Kcttle-
iiicirt, liciug tlie central platena, cr laiiul -j;i',a53
licit between tlie Itucky aiul ( a-tade jMiiiin-
tains.

"A bieadtli of seventy uiilca on cajli aido of
the lino would iuchidc Lie ba nr.chc aarl the
Hcttlenu'iits of llu! Lilloet Diitrictciii the west,
those of bakes Okaiiaiian nml sln^woss on tlia
<uidt, and oin'vrace an area of alioiit I'J.OtX)
M(|Uarc laili.'S. oa nliich it is e.itiuaileil there
aio about 'JOt) farms t:ikfu \\\), and 1l;o whito
jMipalation is about 1,0(K1. Ab'iut, oMc-tcnth of
thf; arable land i» iiuder cult ivaliuii, but the
{jrn/iii:^ land is nearly occu))iod «iid supports
•20.0%) to 25,0110 head'of cattle, a ooiisudciablo
luiiulicr of hoisca and slu cp.

"If the whole of tho ovati'e laad of this
areawnre]ait uiiilor cultivation tho total iiro-
duce would iirobably not exceed that of an

•(Mircn KUcJi

i I is tlie

Kulw.iys,

;•!■ J'or Van-

, to 1)0 Kup-

lito "irouiitl
riit'U! i,s H
n'li fluirc,
ilailways,
ii.;.', liglitly
:nill,i(', tlio
li't't. wliiU'

ICIK'O of

ij'h there
land ii\
to l)c ciil-
■cuts tlieii"
cr ])(()•( ion
soltieruent,
il. At tlie
tt are some
' ai' Kctlle-
il icijaiies
■1i:l. i:a.st
re (34().UOO .
at the ont-
•iit in. the
! of nettle-
liver ihore
a (jnantity
s ot aralii<'
;< rin 1', Mill
ot tlieso is
)'s, fio that
i'ew small
Let me
' rt]>oitof
niii-( 'iiief-
M 1 rought

v-'Vit poroEs
n n!' Viilleys
ill «, of this
it 1(11- settle-

iiie Muiin-

i'z.:h ;iiilo of

lu- .•'.Dil the

11 f'C wpst,

wafsa oil tlie

loitt Il>,0(X)

iiU'd there

1!;o vhito

ie-t<'i;th of

.1!), Iiut the

1(1 Biipporta

loiiaidtiable

.■ind of this
L' total ])ro-
tliat of an

average county In Ontario. (In the huhiiicf!
of the (!((.■) imlca the eountry woiilcl not sii])-
port a wiiiti! ptniulatiou of iiiDrc tliia ali-w
hundreil-i. 'I'liti cent (f eon.stnietiiif: this
division of tt'c lino woiill te h-jiivy, i>nib:\l)ly
not less than $o(),000,0(X)."

Mh. DkCOSMOS : What is the e.xact
size of an average county in (.)ntario !

Mk. r>LAKE : I do not know tlie
exact size, hut as the, lion, gentleman
interrupts nie, I will read thehon. gentle-
man's own statement nuule in debate on
the subject of this line. It gives some
valuable information. Tlu; hon. gi ntle
man says this — I read from the Otiicial
debutes for 1H77 :

" The First Minister had referred to the
raluablc laud on Fraser River. As a fact, how-
ever, there were not perliaps over 400 sijaaie
miles, or 2r)(),0<J0 acri s of valual)le arable land
along the whole river, from Yale to the nimith
ot the Kraser. In farms and jiouulatioii there,
they did not exceed the farming' population in
his own district, and were far beliind tliat
which existed in the district of his hon. friiaid
from Vancouver (Mr. Runster) ; but what wa'i
there from Va'e to the month of Butv.ird Inh-t
to support a railway ? There was nuthiii.L; in
the district to sujiport a railway, so far as at
prestlit known ; and when they leaded tiie
Vole canyon thtre were sixty o(l<l miles of can-
yon to get tlirou^h, which was noihiiiL; but a
vast ilitcli, cut by the water coursing throui;li
for ayes ; tiiere was nothing there, uiiUhs
mineral wealtii was found in tiic luouutains,
M'hicli were walled up on each side. X( xt,
they ha 1 to go forty miles bovnnd before they
found anything but some high grazing land, and
away down in the bottom, along the l'iio!n])soii,
some patches of land that could only be cult •
vnted by irripaton. After forty miles niore, at
the end 'f Kamloops Lake, they found a lii'/h,
rolling, gru/ing country p.nd a few faruiers
The p ipulation of that country iias not in-
creased ."/O [ler cent, wiihin the hut len yearj,
VVlien they r ached Kaniloops tliey found a
deligiitful point, from which open binds, but
narrow, strL-tchi d along the m.rth fork ot the
Thompson lor twenty miles beyond; i". « as
com[)aratively worthl-'fs anil, unl-.-^s niiiieral
wealtli \veie found from Tete .leuiu: ("a ibe (o
that spot, it could not be considi red as sutli-
cient to invite the Government to coiistruet a
railway in that direction. If the < ioverniiient
wai deterniined to bring a railw.iy by Tete
Jeiine C:\elie and Ivamloops to I'nriiird In!i!t,
he alleged, ivt only from a 1 loniinioii point of
view, tinan'-ially tpeaking, with r< spect to the
cost and renipts of the i ail way, but in the in-
terests of coniinerco, in the intere ts of tho in-
dustry of their Province, that the line of r:iil-
way could not bo made a suecc.-s i y tlie best,
administration of the country. The sole and
whole reabon was that they could not make a
way traflie. It was simply following a ditch or
ditches through the country, and w;is not e,il-
oulated to inike a way traffic or aid in the gain-
ing a large shate of the trans-I'aoiti,; tratlic."

Mi;. DkCOSM* ».S : V/liat I ash is, what
is the siz(- of an iiverago-si;;e county in
Ontario (

.^Iit. Hl.AKK: As I have said hofore
I am not able to state tiie e.\act si/" of an
aNciage entiiUv in ( ditario.

-v.u. UUNSTiai: Who made that
statement the iioii. gentlenaan litis just
read ?

i\L.. BLAKE: It w;is tlie lion, mem-
ber for Victotiri. Well, Sir, we are to
liav- this road for 125 miles lying in this
diteli that the hon. member .speaks of,
with no means of phtciiig there a j)o]iu-
latiou suthcient to create a tiallic. The
hon. the Minister of Railways talks of
placing tlitn-e within four or live years, ti
population of 100,0t)(). Why, it could
not be done, :ind if it was done they would
starve.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER : It was the
Gluhe that said such a population could be
put there.

JMu. BLAKE : And does the hon. gen-
tleftian agree with that]

Silt (n4AI{LES TUPPER : Yes.
iMii. BLAKE: I tell the hon. gentle-
iinm tiiat he couhl not do it. If sucli a
population went there within the time he
names tliey would stay there as bones, not
as living men.

Mu. Mi'lNNES: I wotdd sav Iiere

:\Iu. liLAKK: To judge ' from the
number of gentlemen who are continualiy
interrupting, one would think there must
be a great many men in British < 'olnmbia ;
the only one who at all observes tlie pro-
prieties of debate istt,(^ senior member for
Victoria (Sir Jolin A. Macdonall). I
have said. Sir, and in that I am liaiipy to
ajzree with my hon. friend from Victoria ■
(Mr. Det'osmos;, that I do not find that
the resources of th(^ country in 'piestion
are likely to make the propi sfd work \)ro-
litabie. Tiiere is indeed some chance that
the line will not be reipiired to be kejit
open after it is built, and we shall thus
srtvi! the running expenses. The running
expenses depend upon tlii; tratlic. If the
tratiic is heavy, then, of course, we shall
have adequate returns, hut if it be light,
W(! shall have heavy running expensis
without rettirns, for there must be in that
isolated region, machine shops; all aiTiinge-
ments for inakini,', or at any rate inr re-
pairing locomotive? and cars, a stalf and
so forth, if the road is to \w run at all.
The engineers, taking tho Intei'colotiial

Jliiihvny as n guide, have cstinmtcd tlie
limning t;xp(.'nsps of worl<ing tiic ILT)
Jiiilos at *l"jr),(J0O. If there is hardly
any tialHc it will not cost so inucii. But we
ounnot hoj)e to escape altogether from
running expenses, which will, of course,
include rcncwaN and icpairs, though ]
fuiu'V the item nf renewals to rails will
Jiot be a heavy one. Our annual pay-
ments tliercfore. in respect of tha^ railway
after construction, will lie considerable.
The inti'rcst on the cost of construction at
«1(),()()0,U()0 will bean annualbiirdenof
t^.ViO.UdO, (ir if the line costs S12,(i(lt),000,
irG()(),(J()(), to which n)ay be added a loss
in running expenses of perhaps 8ir)0,COU
a year, or more, making u total annual
charge of IVom ^7r)0,()()U to <r.Sr)( 1,(100 n
year. lUit that is not all, nor tin; chief
part of thf burden, because this line is
pioposcd to bt; constructed, not lis an
isolated transaction- -not as a complete
thing in itse'f — not as the end of tin;
expenditure in British Columbia, but
only a.s tlie commencement. It is but
a pledge ; it is but a ho.stage for the
many other uiillions to be expended there.
We hear, indeed, iiothing now of an Is-
land llailway, except the suggestion of
the Minister of Eailways to-night, that a
line eight miles long might be necessary
to get beyond the reach of the guns of St.
Juan. But apart from this we hear
nothing, and I think the judgment of the
country lias so far condemned that pro-
ject as to render its revival impossible.
But for the mainland we are to deal with
a proposal to build a long and very costly
line. We have a new set of e.stimates
l)ro\ight down to-night. This is noc the
lirst or second set — it is at any rate the
third set. Before I deal with them in
the gross, I wish to refer to one fact
which i>roves, plainly, that they are the
second S(!t brought down this Session.
The other side had a sort 6f preliminary
skirmish on this cpiestion on the
motion of the lion, member for North
Norfolk, on the land policy of the Gov-
^•riiment. The hon. Fii'st Minister then
.said it was inconvenient to discuss the
Pacitic Bailway policy of tin; Goveriunent
on that occasion ; that this should be post-
poned, till the general deliate now going
on ; but you will have ncliced that he
imniedihie\y proceeded to uiscuss and ex-
]tound it. The hon. gentlf>man declared
that the expenditure in connection with

the Pacific Railway, up the .'U)th Juii«
next, would be about $ir),O00,OO(). W«
know that the expenditure up to Dee-
ember last, largely exceeded $14,000,000,
and I think the estimate of $15,000,000,
up to the 30th June, is ])erft;ctly fair. It
will be in the memory of the House that
lie stated that from .'JOth Jun(( next, th«
cxpenditun! would be $10, 000,000 a year
for the next two years, and .'5r),0U0,000 a
year for tlie following eight year.s. This
will make a total expinditure of $C0,-
000,000 to be made ii'ter the thirtieth of
tlutie next, or of ,$7"),0(iO,000 adding the
.?ir),000,0O() alreaily .sjK'nt. This state-
ment was not made recklessly. It was
made after dwe (!eliberati<ui, of sot pur-
pose, as a deliberate declaration of the
' policy of the (lovi rnment, on tho highest
authority ; and the hon. Finance Min-
ister on the following day con-
firmed it, declaring that it was based
on Mr. Fleming's tiguics. To-day, the
hon. Minister of Railways states that
the whole expenditure, including the past
^l.'),000,000, will be under 805,000,000.
He has seen the First Minister, or
those behind him, and goes ten millions
better. There is a change of over
$10,000,000 between the deliberate esti-
mate of last week and the final estimate
of this week. I would like to know
where this ten millions has gone. I
would like to see the details of these
varying estimates, because they are on
the wliole surprising to tJiose wlio have
been forming their opinions on the
detailed statements made in ijublished
rc'portw by responsible officials. There are
."jriO miles of a very difficult road to build,
from Jasper House to Port Moody. For
a part ordy of that road, for tlie tO.S miles
between the Divide and Port Moody, Mr.
Fleming's estimate was about $^o,0X)0,000.
The estimate of Mr. Smith was
$36,500,000. and the estimate of Mr.
Cambie was, I think, $31,000,000. But
the average estimate of tii.) Chief and
Assistant Engineer may -»r, .t'id to
be over $36,000,000 for this 403 miles,
which would run up thj 55 miles to
840,000,000 ; and now it i-: sad ihat the
550 miles, composed of th''^ VJr- miles and
of 57 additional miles of inexpcr.^iveroad,
CAu be Imilt for $30,000,000, a difference
of $10,000,000. You add more than
one sixth to the mileage, and you subtract
more than one-sixth liom the cost. If so,

>Otli Jun0
JUO. W«
i to Dee-

t,000,000,
), 000,000,
y fair. It
iou.so that

next, th«
)00 a year
000,000 a
U-.S. Tliis
■ of $C0,-
liilieth ot"
(Uling the
liia state-
It was

sot pur-
ou of the
lo hi^^hest
lice Min-
ay con-
vas liasecl
)-day, th«
r,iU'H that
^ tlie past
i,000,000.
lister, or
.1 Diillions

of over
^'ato esti-

estimate
to kuow
ione. I

of these
y are on
vho have

on the

jublished
There are
1 to build,
dy. For
i'J3 miles
)ody, Mr.
,0-00,000.
iLli was
of Mr.
130. But

hief and

:;:ld to
'3 miles,

miles to

i,l)iit the
mViGs and

ivo road,

ifl'erence
Dve than

suhtnict
]£ so.

the part isgrc.iter than the whole. 1 may
l)u pennitted to doubt a little whether a
large p<irt of the 5;10,()(»0,000 which has
<lisa])peared in a week from the; coit of
the Tucilic Railway, has not been arbi-
Irarllycut off from the J?ritish Columbi.i
section. I eaiinot but believe that a very
largt! part of that amount has been econo-
mised by taking an extravagant s\un from
that section, and I .shall reujain of the
opinion, until I see souu- detailed state-
ment, giving i<!iis()us wliy this iuimense
saviiig is jiracticalde, that tlie lajt eiti-
inate of the Ciiief Engineer is not so
trustworthy, or bas«d on such sound cal-
culation as the ft>rtncr estimate of hiui-
.self and his assistants. The House must
not forget too that Port iNFuody is not the
tei minus of the; Kailwav. The I'hijjineers
.siy that the terminus must be at Coal
Harijour, or English Hay. You do. in-
(h)ed, reach the I'aciiic S'.'aboard at I'ort
Moody, but not a satisfaotoiy terminal
harboui'. You must go furthei', and
spend another million of dollars to
accomplish the other fourteen miles of
distance before you see the end of your
labours. Hut even supposing it to be
our uuhapjiy fate to get no further than
Port Moody, and supposing the hon.
gentleman's revised estimates to be
lealized, I call the attention of the House
to the fact that he calculates, himself, on
spending )?.30,000,()00 for the western
section, and $13,000,000 only, or leis
than ono-half the former sum for the
whole of the prairie line. The fatal bur-
den is still in the west. The hon. gentle-
man was right in dealing with the British
Columbia, or western section, of this
Railway as really beginning at a
point east of the Rocky Mountains.
But he did not go far enough east.
In order to decide what is the true jwiiit of
commencement of the western or British
Columbia section of the road, you have to
decide what is in truth the western end of
the prairie road. That point is the com-
mencement of the British Columbia sec-
tion. I go further than the hon. gentle
man. At a point seventy miles west of
the longitude of E Imonton, you get to
the end of the prairie. It is not necessary,
in order to early sel^'Ieraeut, that even as
far as that point thv country should be
traversed by the Riiihvay. Beyond that
point, the Railway si: u ply becomes nece.s-
.sarv in view of Bi-itisii Columbia inter-

ests, and as a through line; unless, indeed,
the outlet of the western prairii- country
is to be the Pacitic and not the Atlantic
ocean. I take, therefore, the longitude of
Edmonton, which is also the point of
divergence in case a no:tlierly route
shoniil hereaft«r be adopted, as, for preg-
ent purposes, the jwint of .separaiion
betwetMi tlu) prairie and the ]5ritish Co-
lumbia sections, antl my hon. friend Irum
Lainbton, uj)on all the inlormation which
the orticial documents and (he ['higiiu'crs
reports giv(!, added to his own kiu)\vledge,
(assuming the continuance of tlie same
gradients and curves, and the snuj} stylo
of construction an I ecjuipment, v/hich
were always intended up to the
time he resigned,) esiimates thiit
the 25G miles from Ednumton
to tha summit would co.ft $y,400,00U,
which added to Mr. Fleming's and .Mr.
Smith's estimates of over .':<:JG,.")OO,0O0,
for the roid from the Summit to the
Pacific would givt; a total of over
$■15,000,000, as the cost according
to the old estimates and old style
of construction of what may l>e
described as the western section of the
Railw.^y. Of course when the hon.
gentleman choses to give us the informa-
tion which will make it possible for us
to judge what style of road he now pro-
poses to build ; when he tells us what the
curvature and gradients are to be, and
the general character of the works and
style of the road, we shall bo better able
to judge of the correctness of his revised
estimates, but he would not even tell us a
little while ago, what the estimated cost
of e(iui})meut was ; he would merely say
it was a light equipment, by which we
can judge that this estimate is arrived
at by cramping the road very much
indeed. It would be very easy to tell,
if only it were convenient to let us
know, what the estimated cost of the
e(piipment is. It is estimated upon the
cost in dollars, of so many locomotives, so
many freight and passenger cars at such
a price. It is included for example in the
estimate of $13,000 a mile for the prairie
road. But the hon. Minister of Rail-
ways would not tell us how much he
could squeeze out for equipment in dollars
from the 813,000 a mile; and I am not
surprised, because, I dare say, he would
have to go into decimals to give it to us.
Whim you recollect that an adequate

rolliiif,'-stock, acconUiig to tli<! foriiuT
cstiiimti's, costs !?-',(l()0 a niilo ; tliut tho
steel rails, ])lates ami fastenings cost many
tliousaiuls more per mile, you will iiuil liow
very little remains of the ij^lJ.UOU a mile
to cunstnict the Kail way. Then I say
that the British Columbia end, taking
the rout(! ailoi)te(l from the longitude ot
Edmonton at the old rates, and on the old
stylo, would f>ost !i!tr),()0(>,000, on which
the permanent interest charged would be
ifijL'ilO.OOO, besides a large sum for run-
ning e.\])enses. Now, the qvieation for tlie
House to dcteriuine is whether we ought
or can afford here and now to take the
initial stej), pledging us to an absoluta
expenditure of at least 110,000,000
at once, and to an idtimate expen-
diture for the standard through line
from Edmonton to the Pacific of
$45,000,000, making an annual interest
charge of !5)2, 250,000, besides over
^'l, 300,000 a year for the gross running ex-
penses, subject, of course, to deduction of
the gross receipts. Considering only
what tlie railway works are which we are
called upon to execute in the North- West
to the eastward of Edmonton, and not
considering at all our other engagements
— the general financial engagements of
the country ; the demand for various im-
provements, East, West, North and South,
the Provincial demands for aid; not taking
a comprelieusivo viewof'these various calls,
but confining ourselves for the moment to
the demand upon us in order to develop
the North- West, in order thence to get
the money on which the hon. Minister
depends fur the construction of the road
in British Colum'ui;i, in order thus to
render the construction in British Colum-
bia possible. Is it — I will not say the
part of prudence, but the part of sane
men to commence now an expenditure of
.$45,000,000 in that end of the Dominion ?
The hon. gentleman has told us what, ac-
cording to his pr(!sent estimate, we have
to do. According to his view we have to
sp(>nd $15,000,000 to build the road from
Selkirk to Jasper House, and nearly
$"i 000,000 on the Eastern works, making
nearly !i?20,000,000 to be spent, besides
the ^15,000,000 already expended ; so
that by the time we reach Jasper
Hou.se, our total expenditure, exclusive of
interest, will have beennearly $.35,000,000.
But except by most seriously degrading
the roatl, by altogether lowering the style

of construction, i)y clian:^ing it from a
good through line to an inferior colonisa-
tion road, it will be necessary, according
to the estimates of the hon. ni'juber for
Lambton. if they be correct, to exj)end a
very much larger sum than the hon. ^linis-
ter calculates to reach this n.'sult. The
Canaila Central Railway sul)sidy readies
$1,440,000, the surveys, including tlioao
location surveys, which, after all, come
out of the pockets of the people, whether
called exploratory .surveys or location
surveys, amount' to $4,000,000. The
road from Fort William to Selkirk was
estimated at $18,000,000 ; the Pembina
Branch cost $1,500,000, and adding
$100,000 for the lied River Ihidge, we
reach a little over $25,000,000. From
Selkirk to Edmonton, according to the
old grades and style of construction, the
hon. member for Larabtou estimates at
$17,650,000, which, added to the
$25,000,000, makes a total of over
$42,500,000 as the amount, including
what has been spent for surveys,
which it will have cost the coun-
try, irrespective of interest and
construction, to reach the point
which I suggest as the reasonable
terminus for the ])rairie section of the
road. Of this amount we have paid
$15,000,000, and must provide nearly
$28,000,000 more. I have no doubt the
hon. gentleman can make a very large re-
duction ill these figures by increasing the
curvature, by raising the gradients, by
degrading the road in every way from a
first-class to cheaji colonisation railway. I
am not at present ileclaring that it may not
be good policy for him to do so, — po.s-
sibly it may l)e so ; but I think the House
cannot intelligently dis])0.se of the hon.
gentleman's suggestions on these points
without having before it some more facts
and figures than have been communicated.
I no not think we can decide that
$13,000,000 will ray for the work accord-
ing to thepresent plans of construction, till
we know what the curves and gradients
and other works are to be, and we may
be called uj)on to consider whether we
are not sacrificinst to a large extent the
future to the present in the matter;
whether wo are not causing a very much
larger ultimate expenditure by the pro-
posed present economy at the expense of
the condition and quality of the
road. If the hon. Minister of Rail-

.t from a
■ coloiiisii-
iiocortliiiji
'inber for
exjUMiil a
1)11. ]Miui.s-
ilt. The
y reaches
ing those
ali, come
, whether

location
00. The
Ikirk was
Pouibina,
cl ackling
ridge, we
0. From
ig to the
ctioii, the
imates at

to the
of over
iuclu cling

surveys,
le corni-
est and
e point
easonable
in of the
ave paid
lo nearly
louht the
large re-
asing the
ients, by
ly from a
ilway. I
t may not
so, — pos-
he House
the lion.
Eso points
lore facts
lunicated.
cido that
k accord-
iction, till
gradients
1 we may
ether we
xtent the

matter ;

ery much

the pro-

xpense of

of the
of Rail-

ways can find a plan by which he can
construct tlio road with inferior curves
and grades and in an inferior style to that
heretofore contemplated, but reasonably
good however, and the conversion of wliicli
to sujjcrior curves and grades and » first-
class style can le ultimately secured, when
needed, without much added cost, 1 think
it may be a prudent tiling to reduce for the
present the expense in this way. On the
other hand, we must look to the ultimate
conversion of the road into a tirat-class
road, a cheap carrying road for the North-
West, without wliicli it will be useless
for that long stretch of country towards
Battleford and beyond ; for the grain will
have to come down along the Pacific Rail-
wa y a great many miles before it reaches
Selkirk or the Red River. The House
must rememberthat accordingtothe theory
on which the hon. Minister advocates the
completion of the road, he is bound to
give reasonable grades and curves to the
prairies of the \Vest. The Western set-
tlers will at best be in an inferior position
to those nearer Selkirk ; and if you add
to their disadvantages a heavy tax on the
transport of their grain by reason of an
inferior road to Edmonton, it will not
compensate them, to say the grain can be
moved cheaply from Selkirk eastward.
What they want is to get it cheaiily moved
along the whole distance. Again, of
course, the through traffic depends on the
road being first-class, and we must
remember that after wo have spent all
the hon. Minister pioposes, we shall have
not a Pacific, but a Colonisation road.
According to the old system of construc-
tion that central section would cost, in-
cluding the other iiemslhave mentioned,
altogether over $42,.j(l0,000, leaving out
entirely both ends. What are the ends
to cost 1 $-tr),000,000 is as I have stated
the cost from Edmonton to Burnird Inlet
on the West ; and from Foi-t William to
Nipissing on the East, the hon. member
for Lambton, estimsites at a length of
about 6;"»0 miles, and a costof ii?32,r)(')(),000.
Thus the ends makes up together
iC^T 7,000,000, the centre and the pist ex-
jiendituro .'?42, 500,000, making a total of
!? 120,000,000, and that wholly ex-
clusive of the legitiiuat» and necc-
sai-y charge, which must bo ad-
ded in all cases, the charge for
interest during construction. In all
enterprises of this description every esti-

mate with reference to expenditurr
includes a provision for interest on capital
provided during construction, before thr
enterprise becomi-s productive, and this
item is to be eousideicl in the reckoning.
'J'he House may be sur[>ri3ed to learn that
on our expenditure uj) to this time, and
rating the interest at 1 pur cent, only, as
the money was raised partly on guaran-
tee, that interest u]) to 'M)i\i June next
will exceed $l,2r)0,0i)(t. Taking the
estimates of ten days ago, if $00,000,000
are expended in the next t(!u yeai-s, there
will be a total of over «;2i,r)00,000 for
interest, calculating incerest on futurt;
loans at 5 per cent., the lowest rate, as 1
believe, at which the money can beraised.
Of course, according to the hon.
Minister of Railways, wo have saved ten
millions during the last W(;ek, and there-
fore the interest of that ten millions is to
bo taken off; l»ut even deducting it,
unless my hon. friend would be kind
enough during the progress of this debate
to save us another ten millions,
we .should still find over .^22,500,000
of interest to be provided before the
completion of the line, according to
the reduced figures, bi^fore we are able to
reap the benefits of that enormous through
and way traffic, the profits of which are
then to pour into the coffers of this coun-
try. We must not altogether forget the
eastern connection. The hon. gentleman
has not been altoitether oblivious of that
part of the through line. It was politic
on his part to throw out some faint hopes
of the construction of that link. Quebec
ha.s si)ent some .*1 1,000,OUO, which she
can ill afi'ord, for the construction of a
railway princii>ally designed to tap the
Pacific trade. Quebec has stretched her
arms out towards t'le great west, as far as
this city, and the question i», h"w soon in
.she to get further, how soon that great
expenditure is to l>e productive, of tlio
benefits expected t I am glad to know
her road is |)aying something as it is ; but
what (Quebec expected was not siiiiplj
that it should pay, while it is new and
cheaply worked, some fr.ictioii of the
interest on the cost of construction, but
that it would pour a great tide of traffic
into her [iriucijial cities, and bring
prosperity in(o her midst. But unless
and until an eastern connection of some
kind is made, those expectations of the Prc-
vinc« of Quebec, on the faith of which sh«

lii

■u

pioff'cdod to ccinstnict her riiilvvay,
cimnut 1)0 realisiMl My lioii. iVifiid
felt lliiit. 1 should not Wf surprised — t do
not know anytliiiij,' aliout it — ^l)ut 1
shoiihl not tie sur|irisi'd if my lion. tVit'ud
liud lifcn told soiiu'thinj,' of that sort in
private. I should not ho surprised if
Moiiio lion. niend)er from Queliec had
forcibly expressed to him, in private, the
same observations which I have now
mailo in })ublie. 1 should not ho sur-
])ri.sed if it had been iudicat:^d to him, in
iani,'ua^e as strong as was consistent with
the politeness due to a powerful Minister,
that it was essential that he should throw
out, at any rate, souie ray of hope, how-
ever faint, that at some early day the
Quebec Railway should be connected
witli the tiiroiigh line ; that he shouM say
to the luendjcrs froui Quebec : " (.ientle-
men, at the present timo we can only
burn the candle in the middle, and at the
western end, but tin? time will come
sooner tluiu you exjject wlieii wo will be
b\i!'iiii)g ii in tlie miildhi and at both
ends, when it will l)e alight in tlie east
alao " That is, iu fact, what the hou.
geutlenian has vaguely suggest^'d to us
to-nigiit. Ijut my lion. friends
from Quebec will consider how
ii'-arer they will be to the attainment
of a eonueition with tin; racitic
liailway by engaging iumiediately to
construct the wesieru end, and to sjiend,
ace irdiug to the revised estimates,
$:!0,UO(U)00 in liritish CoUnnbia. They
Avill consider how much it is going to
liasteu tin; day in wldcli o\ir surplus cash
will enablt) us to make the conm-etion for
which they long, totling ;ij;30,U()<i,U0U into
that " Brown (,\juntry,"' which is depicted
in the hou. Minister's ma[>. They will
judge whether our purse is like the
widow's cruise of oil, iu which, liowever
much you may draw from it, there will
always remain enough. They will con-
sider whether even out of our abundanci^,
even out of our prosperity, even with our
large ca])acity for raising loans and ob-
taining moneys, we will be all the better
nble to deal with the eastern end, because
we arc commencing now to build the
western end. They will reflect upon the
])ossibility, nay, I will say tlie strong pro-
bability, that the ert'ort to build the
westeru end, if so precipitately engaged
in, may crush this country, destroy the
^hole sclieme, and render impoasible for

all time, or, at any rate, for a very long
timo, to attempt an eastern connection.
According to his fashion, the hon. gentle-
man was not tiuito consistent in this
matter. H3 was at pains to point out, in
order to soothe the anxious fears of his
friends and supporters, that the Govern
nmut was in a position to go slowly.
This contract, he says, contjiins clauses
which give an absolute power to stoptho
work at any time ; and if we find the re
sources of this country are going to be tco
heavily weighed down l)y building this
1'2') nules iu British Columbia, depond
u[)on it we will stop. We are not going
fast ; we are going slow. We expec^
however, within ten years, having saved
that ten millions 1 have spoken of, to do
this much, at any rate ; but we will not
engage to do it within ten years. We do
not consider ourselves bound to British
Colund)ia to do it by 18!)(), and we will
not do it within ten years if it ]iresses too
heavily on our resources. So much was
necessary in order to soothe the fears of
those who dreaded that the taxation
would be too great and the expenditure
too rapid. Jiut then the lion, gentleman
had to draw back, and in order to show
that even all that expenditure would not
indefinitely postpone the work at the east-
ern end, had to show "the silver trim-
ming' — I think the lion. Finance Min-
ister calls it — he had to show the " silver
trimming"' of tlie cloud and he said in
etl'ect : " 80 contident am I of the succ« si
of my scheme that I will not name the
day in which the blushing East shall bo
married to the rosy West, but it will be
very much sooner than any of you ex-
pect." One moment he said : " I will go
slowly in tlie West, because the work may
be too heavy for us — don't be afraid," and
the next moment he exclaimed : " I can
get on so fast in the West that I shall bo
able to l)egin in the East quite soon —
don't be afraid." Such were tlm lion.
Minister's consistent statements. Well,
I say that these suggestions are intended,
no doubt, to be satisfactory and consola-
tory, and, perhaps, they will prove so ;
but to my mind, looking at this from a
practical point of view, 1 believe that the
suggestions of the hon. gentleuiLUi are im-
practicable of execution, and that it may
be found out of the question to commence
the eastern end until we have got through
the centre and the western end, if the work

II very lons^
oouncotion.
lion. j,'i;iitle-
nt ill tills
oint out, ill
iV'iirs of Ilia
:ho Govern
go slowly,
lius clauses
• to stop tho
find the re
ug to be too
lilding this
l)ia, depiMid
■e not going
We expec%
iving saved
en of, to do
wo will not
irs. We do
1 to British
md we will
t jiresses too
I niufli was
the fears of
le taxation
expenditure
1. gentleman
:ler to show
would not
c at tlie east-
silver trini-
mance Min-
■ tiie " silver
ho said in
f tho sucL'r Si
it name the
last shall bo
t it will be
of you ex-
I will go
e work may
afraid," and
•d : " I oan
at I shall bo
uiti! soon —
•e tin; hon.
nts. Well,
■e intended,
md consola-
provo so ;
this from a
eve that tho
laii are im-
that it may
,0 commence
got through
1, if the work

is to be carried on according to his scheme
and his views, which, I believe, as they
stand, are beyond tho resources of the
country. C^uebec may expect tho f^astern
end to be commenced when the western
road is finished — that is, that it will be
begun in 1890, and may be linished in
18'J7, and J hope they will all be alive to
•enjoy it. Now, besides this enormous
expense to which I have referred, besides
tliis aggregatt! of I do not know how
many millions of dollars, the interest of
which, according to the old estimates, ^^ ' 1
\ni «ix niilliona a year, we have got to
consider the running expenses. These
expenses Mr. Fleming estimated, in for-
mer days, at $8,0()0,()00 a year ; but my
lion, friend from Lanibtoii estimates them
at a gross sum of !?6,750,()0O a year for
the whole line, or $4,.')00,()00 a y«'ar from
Fort William to the Tacitic. Of course,
against this sum are to be set the re-
ceipts, which will be considerable, and
will, in some sections of the road, per-
haps, meet the expenses ; but in the
early days, and for a long time, the road as
a whole will, I believe, b(> run at a loss.
Tims you have a charge for interest
and expenses for this Pacific llaihvay,
which, if you add the cost of interest
during construction, places it, according
to any estimate you may form, wholly
beyond the resources of this country to do
the work iu the way, and at the rate
that the hon. gentleman has suggested
Now, what must we do? "What arc; we
bound to do{ What are those things
which it is essential for us to do (
I agree that we must finish the road to
Selkirk; and I am glad to hear the hon.
gentleman i"-' going to save a million on
it, Iwoui.. prefer, if he would make it
a million and a-lialf, which would be
perhaps as O'l.sy. We ought to finish the
road to Selkirk as rapidly as yiossible,
consistently with due economy. The con-
tracts are let, and I suppose tha*; road
will proceed. I agree, also, that we
ought to proceed with the road through
the western prairies as rapidly as we find
the settlement and the d(;velo[)incnt of
that country requires us l - advance. I
believe that just as fast as we see that
the flow of settlement ])resses for it and
will be promoted by it, we ought to get
on with the prairie road ; and, therefore,
to the suggestion of the hon. gentleman,
that he has contracted for one hundred

miles, and that he is about to contract for
another hundred, I oH'er no dissent, but
my hearty ap|)robation. 1 believe that
the true course is that which the hon.
gentleman has adopted. That is, to pro.
ceed with the con: truction of these
sections. He has told us in what time
he expects to have them finisKed; but long
before they are finished wo may
know at what time and at what
rate it is necessary for us to
jiroceed further in order to de-
velo])e that country. We can be
guided by circumstances, and construct
tho road, if necessary, (;ven slightly in
advance of the actual tide of settlement,
but not so far in advance as to lie expend-
ing our monev before it can be of any use.
To do that which I have suggested, to
finish the road to Selkirk, to pay ofi' the
subsidy of the (Canada (Vntral, and to
jiroceed with the construction through
the prairie, will, in my o})inion, drain tiie
resources of this country, taxed and
burdened as it is, to tho utmost farthing.
But to that we are committed. The die
is cast. W a must, whether our Jiopes be
brighter or fainter, all agree to give a fair
trial to tho great experiment, on which
we have risked so much, of endeavouring
to settle, as rapidly as possible, that great
North-West country, in the way and
manner 1 have suggesteil. Burtlened as
this country is, that work will demand
the most prudent management and the
most careful economy, and will involve an
elimination of every other expenditure
which can be in the meanwhile avoidtnl.
According to the former figures of the
hon. gentleman's f]ngineer, and to the view
of the hon. member for Lambton, our
interest charges will be about two
millions a year when that road is
completed as far as Edmonton.
All that we can get from the lands in
that country, for the next few yeai"s,
during which we shall be engaged in the
construction of the road, will not, I be-
lieve;, do more than help to eke out that
interest. I now jiroceed to state my
views about the land question, but what-
ever we may decide about the land, I
maintain that to attempt at this time
more than is necessary, more than is es-
sential, more than the cardinal thing
upon which the success of the whole en-
terprise is to turn, is an act of folly and
madness. I intend before I sit down to

diHciis-i what H tho tnio tiimiK'ial I'omli-
tion of tliis odiiitiy, iiiul wliut is its nitu
of tiixiitidii iiH e(iin|ian'(l witli tho nitcs of
taxation fxistiii^' in 1S71; mid to coii-
siilur how far, a|iiu't from thu sali! of the
luiitls, it is pussililc fur us to uiuh^r^^o tho
Ktraiu wiiich tlic pioiioscd work will in-
flict upon us. Hut In'foro 1 toiu^h that
BulijcTt, it lii'conios ni'ci'SHary to dnil with
tho <pu,'stion of tho hiiuls, liocausc tlio ul-
•t'gations uiaih; tho otin-r day with refcr-
eneo to the sales of lauds, wero that thoso
Ball's would ifliBS'o us almost im-
mediatoly from tho inttsrcst liabi-
lity, and practically from tho li-
ability for pi ini'ijial. I ijuitc* }<f;ri>o
that if tlu( calculations of tho hon.
First Minister and of tho lion.
Minister of llailways, as to receipts from
lands, andex|H'nilituroon construction are
founded ui)on a roisonable liasis, thoy re-
move all serious ditliculty and m-c may
fairly and reasonably launch out into tho
eonstiuction of tho (Vntral and Western,
and also into the couKtruction of the
Kastern end oftii(! Paeilic Railway. [
perfectly agree that if tlu'so matured
conjectures, in wliieli every doubt was
given to the side of prudence — which re-
present minima instead of maxima ; if
these close and aciuirate calculations are
fairlr to be counted ii[ion as the ivsults of
the immigration and the Railway con-
struction; if l)usiness men, acting in
their own conccins, or acting for others
for whon\ they are trustec^s, ought to ac-
cept these tigures as a l)asis for encounter-
ing for tht'insolves oi- for others for svhom
they act enormous liabilities, then the
results of these calculations ihi justify as
in assuming tlio liabilities pro]iosed to us.
Now, let us 8(?e what these (litlcnla-
tions are. They assume that the
f'inigratioii will commence at

2o,0()i) and iiiercas'! veirly by
5,0(J<>, making, in the cour.sti of eleven
years, .").")(),0i)0 emigrants. Of the.se
1)8. .")()() are to become homesteaders and
preonipliirs, at an average; rat(; of 8'^ an
acre for the j>reoiniited land ; .■•it,liOO are
to IjecouK! purchasers of and settlers u|Pon
railway lauds, at an average rate of 8'! an
acre for the railway lands, making 102,700
owners of 3l',(UO,O00 acres to bt; settled
in that country in the courso of eleven
years. Tho ( Jovernnumt calculates not
merely on this nun\ber of emigrants,
not merely en this number of purchasers,

trayagant.

emigration

not merely on thoso prices, not njerelv oji
this aeriMge, lait >yith a Niiiilimo inditler-
eiico to all thtt diotatoM of prudence ad
to all th(» experience of all time, ^ney
calculate on tlu) Hi'ttleiM on these lands
paying their large instalments up to the
day. They calculate on tho rtfceipt of
■<!3S,r)l);i,UUt) from land sales in «'leveu
yearH, and, in addition, on a good debt of
!?.'?2,7r)0,()(IO more, bearii\g interest, mak-
ing over ^71,;i0l),0i)t) for lands, with a
claim for interest on tho dol)t at <» J»er
cent. They estimate tho cost of survey
and managoment for this vast undertaking
at. ■^L', 400,000. 1 allege that tho result of
thesn several calculations is absurdly ex-
1 hope for a very
to the North- West
this year, and perhaps next year. 1
do not intend to be bouml to an
estimate for ten years by tho results
of one or two years. I call the attention
of the House and the country to tho con-
sideration of tho fact that wo aro dealing
with an (estimate, not for ono or two
years, but an (tstimate for ten years; not
an estimati^ ot $10,000,000, but an esti-
mati- of .•iiti;0,OOO,00O; therefons I do not
inteml to be )<ound by the tigures
for tho early years, attetulel as
thcso ar(! witli many exce|>iional
circumsta!ic(!S. Of course the whole
thing is con'ectural ; but wc have a
right to refer to the ex[)erienco of
the Unite 1 States, to whicii, indeed, the
hon. geiitleman referred as the nearest
analogous experience to onrs, and as fur-
nishing with all due allowances the only
available guide, f will take the settle-
ment of t!u; Western States and Terri-
tories, which luwi' formed the scene ot
the most rapid develoiJUUMit whicii the
world has hitlierto known. Ideeply regret
tliat wo ai'e engaged in this disiMissio!i
without t!ie jilvautige of tin; Truted
Stativs (J Misus very shortly to bo taken,,
bocauao I agree that ciieumstance.s in
I'cference to the Railway tlevelopment of
later years have si'usibly aH'ected the tide
of settle nent, therefore these figures aro
to be tak 11 with ;i measui'e of allowance ;
still we must consider, whatever may bo
now the relative advantages of our own
Xorth-West, that these states and terri-
tories were at the time the choici'.st in the
world open, and tiiat they gave very great
facilities for settlemeni'. I. take the group
of Weiitern and North-Western S^at 's and

crclv on
iii.liHtii-
iic( atl
ic, -hey
to liimlH
|> to t\ui

l'fl|jt ot"

I cli'veu
I (li-l)b of
«ist, milk-
I, with a
A a per
' suivoy
L'l'ti iking
rosnlt of
inlly t'X-
ii vi'iy
rth-Wcst
yt'ivr. 1
I to an

rosiilts
attention

1 tho con-
dealing
) or two
•ar.s; not
t iin (!Hti-

I <lo not
tigures
ulo'l as
CL'jdional
10 wholt;

have a
uMico of
th'X'd, the
) niMi't'st
id as fiir-
tlie only
10 settle-
Ill I Terri-

scene ot
vhieli the
l)ly regret

isiMissiou

Tnited

\k) taken,.

t;uii-es in

ojniient of

I tlie tido
iLCures aro
llowance ;
r ni;<y be
t' (HU- own
iiud terri-
.■e.st in the
very groat
I tho group
Stilt vs and

ToiritorieH, coni]iiiMing Miohigaii. Indiana,
Illinois, Wiscoiisin, Iowa, Minin-sota,
Kansas, Nfehiaska, Dakota, Montana,
Wyoming and Colorado. The area of the
group is (UM, 01)0,000 acres. They had a
pojmlation, in 1H.')0, of L',7-10,000. The
yearly iucri-aso lietwoen that year and
ISfiO was at the rato of L'.'^L'.OOO a year,
and the population, in I8ti(», reached
5,600,000, so that at first sight hardly
any calculation of increase would Keeni
extravagant ; hut let us ascertain of what
this population was composed. In tlio
year 18G0 there weif of persons horn in
th«( group 'J,r»;5O,()00, or 44 per cent, of i
tho whole population ; of persons horn in j
other parts of the Tnited States, L',01 5,000 ,
or 137 per cent, of the whole, making
an aggregate native population of I
4,515,000, or SI jiorcent. of tho whole. '
Of foreign horn emigrants 1,050,000, or '
only I'J per cent, of tho total population;
so that tho extremely rapid increase |
which took place in thosi; years is due .
mainly to the natural increase in tho tor- |
ritory itself, and to migiation from the |
Ekstern to the Western Spates, and not
to foreign immigiation into tho country.
The annual increase to 1870 was still
greater th ni in tho prior decade. It
averaged ;iOO,000 a year. In 1S70 '
the i>oj)ulation was S,GU),000, thus com-
(losed ; horn in tho group, 4, .■{90,000, or
over 50 per cent, ; horn in other parts of
the states, 2,500,000, or over 20 per
cent., making 79! jier cent, in all of
natives ; foreign horn, 1,750,000, or 20i
percent, of tho whole jiopulation. The.se
iigures show that there were three great
sources of increase, to which I wish to
allude for a moment, in order that we
may see how far wo can expect similar
results. First, there was a very rapid
natural increase in the western country,
fcs always haj)i»€iis when there ii abun-
tlance of fertile Lmd, producing plenty of
food — -consequently once there i.s a sub-
«tantial niiclous of population, the
natural increase is a most im[)ortant
factor. Second, that there was a very
great migration from the Eastern to the
Western States — a home migration, not
an immigration from abroad. Lastly,
that there was a lai'ge foreign immigra-
tion; now these fignres, though demon-
strative of the considerations to which I
have alluded, are yet subject to observa-
tion, because, during a part of the last

decade, native horn .\moricans, from both
K.ist and West, wer,> swelling the armios
of the Union iiy hundreds of thousand.s;
tierefoie, there was not in that rajiidly
growing country that relativ(t increase of
tho pojiulation by natural causes and
home migration, that wovdd otherwi.se
have occured. The war had taken tho
men away from the soil ; and at the same
time there was a ff)rei<in immigration
eijual to, if not exceeding, what had jire-
viously occin-red in the Tnited States, so
that while there was a very great foreign
immigration during a portion of that
decade, the doiueslic sources of supply
were seriously diminished by the deadly
struggle in which tho life lilood of the
nation was being poured out like
water. No doubt, howe^ver, the foreign
immigration is in fact a larger
factor tlian it ajipears to be in
the settlement of the Western States,
It was through tho foreign immigration
to the east that the east was abh; to send
BO many of its own .sons to the west ;
therefore, tho foreign immigration did
jilay a wry important iudirtvt jmrt, as
well as its direct part in tho fiettlement
of that country. Now, iu 1 S50. tho ])Oim-
lation of tlie lemaiiider of the States, ex-
clusive of the group of states and terri-
tories to which I have leferred, was no
less than 20,000,000. In 1800, it was
no less than 24,s;?O,00o. This shows
that, notwithstanding the extent to which
tho population of the east migrated to
the west, the iiopulation of the former was
iiiaintuined and advanceil, by virtue of
the foreign immigi'ation and natural in-
crease. The total numbev of immigrants
to tho United States, in the decatlo from
1851 to 18G0, was 2,000.000; from 18G1
to 1870, 2,500,000, and from 1871 to
1830, J|making an estimate for the la.st
eighteen months, 2,700,000. I repeat
tlien,'for^we cannot dwell on it too much
the throe factors wiiich ))roduccd this
enormous increase of populationjin these
splendid AVestern States. The first, a
veiy rapid increase of their nativ*
population ; the .second, a larg«
home migration from other States ;
and third and last, the foreign immigra-
tion, opei-ating directly by the immediate
advance into the west of immigrants, and
indirectly by displacing a certain number
of the native i)opulation who were so en-
abled to go west. It is said that the do.

mnstic (ransfirt'np(»of pojniliitinn liiis hron
«v(»u iiior<> iiipitl, mill liii», tlirrcfdH',
pl(iy«'<l u still morn imiKdtniit part in tlm
|)n'H«>iiti|ccii(lt( tliaii ill foiiiici'ilct'iult'H. I,<'t
UH coiiipan' oiir rir«'Hiii.stuin'i'H with tlifiiM
ill tlicHH piiifiouliirN: Kirwt (if all, w« hiiTo
Rt |>rcH«>iit no nuclciiH of popnliition in tlii'
Nortli-WcHt wortli imuitioiiiii^. It is
towards tiic niul of the ilriadc lor which w«)
ftrocalLMiiatinj,' that thin factor will lu^'in to
oxoit an apprt'cialih' iiiJliicntw'. Next,
look Ht that iiativo n'crnitiii>,%'rouiul,that
(constantly incrpasinj^ population, first
•JO,000,(t(HI, runiiiiif,' np to I know nut
how many millions from which I havo
uliown the Western States draw their
main sMpply, J low do we stand as to
that? We Htand 4,0(10,000 against their
30,000,000 or 40,(M)0,0(l(». We stand
with only a tenth of their population,
with a relatively insit^niticant number,
of whom wt< know it to l)e a
fact, a deeply to lie regretted fact,
but a fact which exiBts, and which
there is no use trying to conceal, that
many go to the United States — tlii'*^ out
of our 4,000,000, in the liest times, liun-
dredsof thousands leave us— I think the hon.
member for Cardwell, (Mr. White), gave
UH at over half a nillion, the number of
those who went over durhig the last de-
cade, in which prosperity was the rule, in
which there was no depression, in which
every Canadian had a home and good
work, but still in which something oc-
curnnl to allure them to the settlements
in the Western States, largely by direct
removal there of those who prf^erred a
more southern climate, liut also to a very
great extent by removal to the manu-
facturing towns in the Eastern States,
thus freeing the citi/xns of those states
and enabling them to go West. Now, from
our 4,000,000 there cannot without most
R(;rious coiiseiiuences to the older Pro-
vinces be a \ery large number of
emigrants altogether ; and of that num-
lier a considerable jiroportion will continue
to go to the manufacturing communities
of the States — there are persons who
prefer the latter to the rural and
remote settlements — and others will
go still to the Western States in
spite of the advantages we offer them
in our own North- West. We may hope
— I do, I am sure, as earnestly as any
*aan can hope — that those residents of
the older Provinces wlio decide to remove

will niiiiply transfer their rt>«idencc»
to some othxr part of thin l^ominion. 1
hope that the emigration from Canada to
the IJ lilted States may be sttriously
checked and replaced by migration to
the North- WcHt. I hope that many of
those who are actuated by an adventu-
rous spirit, or a desire for change, will
seek the North West. But my liopeH
will not change the facts, and, whatever
wo may hope and wish, it is only prudent,
it is only wise, that before incurring
vast obligations which, whatever the
result of your s]>eculations, you have got
to meet, you should count t\w coHt and
carefully consider the rinka, and weigh tliv
probabilities. Wo cniinot shut our eyes
to the fact that a consideralile number of
our surplus population will still go to the
manufacturing centres of the f^asteru
States ; that some of our ngricultui'al
population will do what some have done
iiefore, and arc* doing now, prefer Dakota
and some of the Western Territories
I hit suppose I am wrong— suppose that,
moved by some sudden flush of partiotism
changing the desires and inclinations on
which they have acted hithei'to, our whole
migratory jiopulatioii should, without ex-
ception, nisolve to remain within the
borders of the Domijuon, and to that end
move to our North-West in preference to
the mauufaetiiring or the Western States ;
or, suppo.se the establishment of an actual
wall, as high and asefi'ectual as your TariiV
wall, to keep all these within your bounds
as you M-iflh to keep ont all foreign manu-
facturfcs ; suppose you build a wall like
that of China, not indeed to keep out
invader*!, but to Imr your own citizens
from transgressing your limits, and to
drive them into the North- West, what,
would it do 1 Certainly it would be
better than their going to the United
States, for to go there involves
a positive lo.ss to the whole Dominion
of their resources. But it is no better for
us, with reference to the early ability of
the country, as a whole, to meet these
burdens — it is no better for us that they
should reside in the North-West than that
they should remain in the older Provinces.
In the most highly coloured view they will
only be in one part instead of another
part of the Dominion ; they will only be
paying taxes in the East instead of the
West. But talking of it only during th»
next few years, I do not agree that%

it is nu>rily a tninHfrroiion of tax payiiij^
powoi*. I ail) ooiiviiu'cil tliiit th(i Noitli-
WeKt wttli-r, for Kcvcral \i'aiM, will not l»c
ftV('ryli('avyi'outiiliut(»r to tlionet rnvcnuo
of Canada. Hf isa ncwHfttlcr. Ilo jmyK,
tlu) Ministri'Mays, an avfi;iyc of .*;{ nn acre
for liin lantl. At tlit't'iid of tlic tliinl yi'ar
ho pays four tent lis of tlii> monry and
int(!r«'Ht. Il<t lins to iniild IiIn Iioiiho ; lii>
liua to liiiild his liarn, und to fi>nci^ Imh
land ; lio liiis to get liis iiMpl*>nicntK and
liJH animals, un<l to maintain his family
in the homely parlance of onr country, he
has "hard KiTatchiii};" Ixfore him for Home
yearH. It is true that the prairie has
very great ailvanta;,'t'H in Home resp<'ctH.
It enahjes you if you have capital and can
lay out money, to feme in and sow very
much earlier and to laiso your croj) v(My
much Hooner. iJut, on the other hand,
the Hcarcity of timber, and so forth,
renderH tho material rei|nir<Ml for ilie
houso and the barn and the fences (U-ar,
and that is wliat, I liavo no doulit, the
lion, member for LamI)ton (Mr. Mao-
kouzio) meant, wluai he Kpoko of tho
initial ditlicnlties of the st'ttler, in the
prairies of our North-West as compared
with thoHCuf tlu! wooiled country. 1 ex-
pect to bo called unpatriotic, because 1
tell a few plain truths, but those who are
8o loud in this kind of denunciation may
go on. I believe that it is not patriotic
to be dishonourable. I believe it is not
honourable to present false views of ow'a
country to emigrants or others. We
should not overstate, but fairly .state tho
true po.sition and situation of tho ca.se.
J^ut whatever refined diplomacy, whatever
reticence we niiglit, under other circum-
stances, choose to exercise, it is impossi
ble, in reference to the proposals of the
Ciovcrnmeut, on which wo aro asked to
eominit the country .so deeply, to do other-
wise than give the reasons why those pro-
posals are not based on sound grounds ;
and we must i>t.ite circumstances which
thtvir ]iigh-toi!((l patriotism might lead
them to conceal, nay, perhaps even to
deny. The free grant settler will not be,
in early days, a very large consumer of
dutiable goods. He will live as hard as
he can, smuggle as much as he can, and
smuggle a good deal, too, under
the present Tariff ; he will, in
due time, under the influence of
that Tariff develope home manufac-
tures. For I suppose that the North-

West is not to bo deprived of tho
lienelicenf. inlliieniM-.s of the National
Policy — to tiiid that they are to lie our
liewerH of woimI und drawers of water ; I

MUppose they lire not to be d lolned In that
svreti'hed monotony of life, und to be
depriv«i«l of that eharmini.' diversity of
occupation which is a chief ar^'ument for
the National I'olii y, I'lidci- the liot lieil in-
tluenee of the 'I'ai ill' of high pi iceH ; under
the inllueaces, whcliier bcn'-ticeiit or
maleliicnt, of the National I'olit y, he will
have his home manufietures. Sinco the
hon. gentleman announces to ha thiit thfl
North West is to sup[ily us wiihamaikec
for all time f«>r our eastern iiiannfactureB,
Ictus know how this llcico <>f (lid. 'on in
to lie kept wet while all the rest is thy.
It is (piite true that in early yi ais he will
not have home maniifai-tures, liiit these
years will be the hard years for the
settlers. They an? the ye.ars in which it
would Ik! vastly important tor his welfare
tohave, F will not say homemade good.s,
but cheap goods, to lie allowed to purchase
the necessaries of life at the cheapest
rate, and in the market that gives tho
greatest .satisfaction. I'lit you encourage
him in this way. You tell him we have
estalilished a Tariff wall, by which
you must buy in old Canaihi, at
our prices, what von ro(iuire in
the North-W.«st. Tl:.' '-i ;- • ■'. 'ndi-
turo due to the increased prici> of L'oods
will diminish tho settler's in.rrow and
limited purchasing power; and w.U in
effect render him subject to a rate of taxa-
tion RO high as to interfere with his
comfort and advancement. The hon.
gentleman talks of a largo return to tho
cotlers of the Dominion after jiaying the
expenses of Local CJovernment. To talk
to the men who are to Kettle— to whom
you are going to sell lands — to tiilk to
them of the large taxes you expect them,
to pay is a new way to encourage them
to go there. What cold wat(a- have we
thrown, as it is alleged, upon tho settle-
ment of the Noi til- West, that can be
' e(pial to that ? I maintain that for the
I early years the taxpayiiig power of the
pei-sons who migrate from tho vnat to
j the west will not be anything like what
the hon. gentleman states, and that, in
! fact we can expect no net returns of any
j rnateiial amount from that country during
I the early years of its settlement. For
the first year or so but little local or

•24

■ i

municipal Crovorniuent may ha needed,
and with the oountiy in that disorganised
state, yoii may, of course, take
a Km id I net revei. e out of it ;
l)ut aft(!r Local Covernments are estab-
lished the cost will more than e(jual the
return. Nor must you forgyt that the
country is now costing you far niore than
a million a vear.

Sib SAMUEL L. TILLEY : British
Cohnnl)ia and Manitoba pay hirgely into
the J)oniiiiion Treasury.

Mk. ])LAKE: I propose to show,
liefon? I sit down, the net result in those
very Provinces. 'J'lie conclusion is that
the I'esideut of old Canada moving to the
North-West doi^snot at first increase, but
ratlier diuiiuishts the aggregate tax-
paying ])0wer of the Douunion. But,
Lesid ;s that practical reduction in the tix-
jwiying power, there is another reduction
involved in the transfer of ])opulation.
Noliody can deny that there has been a
serious depreciation in the value of real

estate in

Dominion.

Mh. BL'NSTEH : Except in Ibitish
Cobuu1»ia.

Mk. BLAKE: Well, if the lion, gen-
tleu'iiu's cx''e|i!i(iu be true, T can gi>'e no
better proof of the monstrous character
of tiio iijierations which are now )iroposed
— operations for \\hich the whole of the
vast Dominion, with its overburdened
excheipicr, is to be taxed to benelit a
l'ro\irice with 1l',()00 white people,
■which is the only Province in which real
estau.' is on the rise ; and I venture to
liojie thai tlu! Province which is j>rospcr-
ing so greatly will not insist on the less
prosp(;rous I'rovinces further de])ressing
their rt'sourecs by raising 83O,(lO(),0()b
or $lt),0'JO,000 for the benetit of theii-
foi lunate little sister, but that she will
"Wait a little I )ager f.>r her ir.ilway. I
lave said theni is a rierious depreciation
in the value o',' real estate. ^ hat is true
in regard to Ontario, whatever it may be
in regal d to British Columbia ; it
i.s truf as to New Brunswick ;
and T lielieve, as to the other Provinces. A
chief reason is that the demand is not so
great as it was formerly. Formerly our
fanners, young and old, the natural in-
crease of our population, created a de-
mand wliich led to enhanced prices — now
large numbers of them are going West.
The supply is greater relatively than the
demand, and that is one and a very

potent rea.son wliy fliere is a depreciation
in the value of our lands. Thus I attri-
bute to the emigration this result that
our property in the Jl-ist is not so valu-
able, and not so likels to appreciate, and
we ourselves will not br so well oti'if the
jieople continue to migrate to the North-
West; and that also shows rhat in the early
years the migration to that country will
not help us, but, in fact, \\ ill lower our
tax-paying power for a tim(>. When the
settlers begin to thrive — when they pay
off the $71,000,000 which, it is alleged,
titey are to ]>ay into the Exchequer, when
the North-West becomes largely pro-
ductive, aifiiirs will ]jrobably chang«' and
the strength of the Dominion, as a whole,
will be incn^ased by the larger measure
of jirosperity enjoyed in the new settle-
nvnt; but that result cannot bo looked
for in the imme Hate future,and it does not
in the least a'ter the argument that in
the near future our t ix-paying power will
be rather diminished tliau increased by
the domestic migration. (Mr. Blake
hereby arrangement nioxed the adiourn-
ment of the del)ate.) On its resumption
on Friday, Mr. Blake said : When the
House was good enough to permit me
last night to postpone my further re-
marks, 1 had pointed out with reference
to the domestic migration of the United
States that it was impossible to
h po from our home resources anything
approaching an ei]ual Kup|)ly for the
Xorth-West ; that in fact their increase
furni>;lied no indication wiiatever of the
rate of increase on which we could count
from that source, save tliat it wou'il be
iniiiiitely smallei-, and could not be ii;en-
tioned in the .same breath ; and J was
about to advert to tlie relative condition
of (he t'-.'o countries with reference to
foreign friigration. I ouite agree that
recent events furrish us with a very happy
prospect of a considerable immigration of
IJritish farmers here. I hail tliat as one
of the most encouraging circumstances to
be 1 loked at in glancing at our future.
1 think that what has happenea, and what
is happening, cannot be without important
benelit to us. Tliere can be no doubt
whatever that the conditions of Biitish
agriculture have greatly changed, owin
to the increasing food supplies both in
meat and grain from foreign parts. The
cheapening ot the supply has rendered i
impossible for English faimers tocontin

:'i!t^

':paying tho large rents tliey have l)oeii
accustonuxl to pay. There is consequently
a struggle between the landlord and
tenant at this time, and it is not
to be expected that the landlords will
submit without reluctance, or except
upon the jiressui'e of necessity, to a
very large reduction, or to any
. reduction they may think unreasonable
in their rents, and in the course of that
severe, if not hostile struggle, it is to be
exjiected that a great many British far-
mers will emigrate to this country. ]5ut,
notwithstanding that circumstance, 1
liold that it is impossible to contrast the
situation of the two countries — Canada
and the I'nited States — on the general
question of foreign emigration, without
-concluding that our future is not to be
measured by the estimate of theirs. What
has happeiKHi in the west with re-
ference to them cannot be expected
reasonably to liappen in our West with
reference to us, so far as the result is to
be obtained by foreign emigi-ation. I
have already stated that the foreign emi-
gration to tlie United States for the
decade ending 1860, was L>,(iOO,000 ; for
that e:.drng IS70, 2,500,000; and for the
present diicadci it is supposed it will
amuuii-l: to •2,700,000. These tigures are
enough to coviviu'ee us that the rapidity
with Vvliidi western lands have been
settled, so far as that rai)idity is due to
the direct or indirect elfects of foi-eign
emigration, it is not a rapidity which we
can hope to reach in our North-West.
Nor can I agree that the area of land in
the I'nited States available for settle-
ment, although it is, no doubt, being
rajiidiy diminished, is as yet at all
reducetl to such proportions as to force
the current of emigration to our North-
AVest. There a;'» Blill large arcar of land
in that country which are available fur
Settlement, and which, to those who
liappen to jirefer the United States, Avill
give them an opportunity of settling
there for some years to come. The
United States, in a sense, commands the
market in this respect. The emigration
to the states, as far as I can understand,
has been composed in later years, to very
large extent of the Teutonic races. The
Germans have played a very large part in
the settlement of the United States
They exist there in very great numbers
and they exercise there a powerful iu-

fluence. The same opinions which led
the inhabitants of that and all the coun-
tries of Europe, enjoying b>it partially de-
veloped constitutional (Jovfiiunent, when
deciding to leave their natire lands and
seek foreign shores, to choos(( the United
States as their goal, have derived further
strength from the knowledge that there
are settled in the great Repuldic millions
of t.ieir brother CJermans and the ilesc(>n-
dants of their lirother German.s. It is
therefore natural that we should expect,
for .several years to come at any rate, that
the bulk of tho T(Hitonic (Muigration will
go, as it has gone hii'-erto, in tho
direction of the United States. The next
important factor in the emigration to the
United States has been from the ])eoj)le
of the country from which I am descended ;
and we know that the circumstances of
that country are such that, unfortunately
for us, and for the British Enqiire, there
has been a strong impulse on the part of a
very large and ini|)ortant part of the po-
pulation of Ireland to i)refer the Re
public. In this case Ihe sins of the
fathers have been visited on the children-
The wrongs and injustice inflicted on the
mnjoi'ity of the Irish population informer
days — at least the no mory of those;
wrongs and that injustice, the recollection
of transactions, which no man would at
this day vindicate or defend, has re-
mained with those now on the soil, and
obUterat(\s, or at any rate ob.scures to their
vision the more liberal conduct and the
more just course which has animated
British jiolicy in this I'cisjject of later
years. That cii'cumstancc; has led to a
large emigration from Ireland to tho
Ignited States; and we know what the
condition of Irish sentiment still is. I>ut
I ho])e for great thin^js for Ireland and
the Empire from the events'^of the last
few days. I hope and tru:-.t that the
advent to power of the Liberal party,
supported by a great majority ol
decided Liberals and Radicals, will
result in fi-esh measures for relief
and justice to Ireland, which will tend
still further to weaken her old feelings of
hostility and disaflection, and to make
the Empire in this regard a United Em-
])ire. I hope we shall see among other
things a moderate measure of Home Rule
for Ireland, and witness by the applica-
tion of that measure the creation and
maintenance of true and real bonds of

union between IrelAnd and tlio rest of
the so-called United Kingdom. But
things being as they are, .^nd liaving
r(;giird also to the financial condition of
the hulk of the Irish peasantry, no wise
n)an can expect that within a short time,
that within the next few years, there will
1)0 any serious cliange in tlie current of
Irish immigration. So far as the Roman
Catholic Jrisli are concerned we must
expect that the tide of emigration will
continue for some time to «et towards
the United States. I hope the proportion
may be diminished. I should rejoice
grciatly tu see the Irish ))eople recognise
the advantages we offer tliem, and esta-
blisli themselves within our borders,
but still, I believe that ior .sometime we
cannot count on a decided change. The
set of emigration has been sutficiontly
shoM'n by the figures I have given, and
naturally, with the im])erfect information
available to those coming from other
parts of Europe, and apart from all con-
sideration of soil and climate, the notion
of tlie important position and situation
they would occupy under a Republican
toi:n of Government — the idea that as
citizens of the great Republic they would
have a greater pai-t and more active sliare
in the Governnumt of their country — has
actuated a great number of emigrants
from the European continent to c!:onsc
the United .States as the field where their
energies and their talents could be most
fully displayed and the advantages of
citizenship most freely exercised. Among
the obvious material advantages presented
to the minds of such persons is this :
tha^ the National Debt of the Ur.ited
States has been reduced in fourteen vears
by !i?60.3,00O,OOO. It has been reduced
by 30 per cent, of the amount at which
it now stands, and that great reduction
has been affected in the face of
great ditHculties and obstacles, and,
notwithstanding a period of depi-ession
whicli tliey have experienced, and which
seems likely now to be followed by a
period of revived prosperity, perliaps of
inOatisn. I say that the contrast in this
respect, upon wjiich I sliall take occasion
lat(!r further to enlarge, between the
condition of the United States and that
of the countries from which emigrants
come, IS a contract calculated to allure
them to the Republic. Though the
■tatistics for tlie current decade of the

[T^nited States are not yet availaUe, I am?'
able to refo'r to some figures showing the
later progress of two states, especially
alluded to by the hon. member for Card-
well a few days ago, Kansas and Ne-
braska. We were correctly told that
Kansas liad increased from 3G0,000 in
1870, to 850,000 in 187'.), thus showing
an increase in nine years of 490,000. I
have already pointed out the elements of
which tlie increase of population in the
Western States is composed, and the do-
mestic and foreign recruiting grounds
from which that country draws her in-
crease. The.se considerations alone show
that the results in Kansas do not prove
that our North- West is going to have a
pojHilation of 550,000 in ten years, as
stated, for none of the conditions are
parallel. But apart from the fact that
Kansas liad in 1870, 360,000 of a popula-
tion to start with, from whidi came a
large natural increase foiniing an impor-
tant part of the 490.000, it is to bo remem-
bered that Kansas had morever in 1870
over 1,500 miles of railway in operation
and during the decade her railway facili-
ties were increased to 2,300 miles. There
is no doubt, I believe, that [this state ha.s
shown the most remarkalde development
in the history of the world. In 18GG the
State of Kansas was the twenty-fourth in
rank in the United States as a c^iTi-pro-
ducer, and in 1878 she liad run up to the
fourth. In 18(56 she was twenty-fourtii
in rank as a wheat-producer, and she liad
run up in 1878 to be almost the first in
rank, producing in that year 32,000,000'
bushels of wheat. With all these advan-
tages, with all these proofs of an unt^x-
ami^led ]>rogress, with that large domestic
and foreign recruiting ground, to which
T have before alluded, we find her increase
of ]iopulatiou in nine years was but
4!)0,000, and we are told that the North-
Wost witliout the advantages which were
were possessed by Kansas, is to have an
increase through emigration of 550,000 in
eleven years. Now, Sir, I will refer to Ne-
braska. In that state also there has been,
as the hon, member said, very rapid pro-
gress. In 1870 the population was 12'2,000.
In 1879 it was 386,000. The increase in
the nine years was 244,000 : There was
thus, of course a substantial nucleus, the
natural incrtiase from which would form,
no immaterial part of the total increase.
There was also a great domestic and.

■J
t

le, I am

wing tlie
ispecially
"or Ciird-
iiul Ne-
ll d that
0,000 in

showing
),000. I
nents of
n in the
. the (lo-

grounds
va her in-
ono show
not prove
3 have a

years, as
;ions are
fact that
a popula-
h came a
in impor-
jo reniem-

in 1870
opei-ation
vny facili-
is. Tliere

state hiis
,-elopinent

18GG the
-fourth in

c ru-pro-

np to tlic
it\'-fonrth
;l she had
le tii'st in

2,ooo,ooa^

»se advan-
an unex-
1 domestic

to which

V increase

was hut

le North-

hich were

have an
no, 000 in
it'cr to Ne-

hasbeen,
rapid pro-
i 12-3,000.
iicrease in
There was
cleus, the
ould fornix.
I increase,
lestio and.

foreign immigration. There \v(Me also
great railway facilities throughout the
period. In 1870, tlu-re were 70") miles
of railway in operation, and in 1S78
1,320 miles ; yet with all those ad-

in increase of

vantages there was only

nine years
was due
to which

and even
to tlie
I have
States a

244,000 in the
that increase
circumstances

referred, which give the
greater power of settlement than we can
hope for. These are the figures for the
two States which lion, gentlemen have
chosen, and I believe rightly chosen, as
l^resenting the strongest grounds for their
expectations. J do not think they fur-
nish good grounds for the.se expectations.
I do not think that the only experience
to which we can refer, having regard to
the differences between the two countries,
justifies us, however sanguine or fervent
our hopes may be, justifies us as business
men, dealing with a business transaction,
and calculating the cash returns we may
count on from the North-Wcst lands in
the next few years, in concluding
that there will be an emigrant population
of 550,000 in that country at the end of
eleven years, and in incurring on the faith
of that result enormous liabilities, which,
if not met out of the lands, must be met
otherwise. Such a thing may happen — I
wish it would, but I do not think it is
probable, because the experience of no
other country, making allowances, proves
that it can happen in our case. The
statement, I think, is purely conjectural,
is highly improbable, and cannot be
sustained by any analogous occurrence.
So much for the first postulate of the
hon. gentlemen. I do not grant his
postulate. I do not think that it is de-
monstrable in any way. I believe that
all past experience points to its inac-
curacy. But it is enough for me to say
that it is not so far proved as to render
it prudent to count on its accuracy.
Next, as to the probable number of acres
to be sold and preem])ted, the lion, gen-
tleman said the (Tovernment expect to
sell to the purchases of railway lands
10,820,000 acres, and an equal amount to
preemptors, making a total of 21,640,000
acres to be sold. They expect to make
free grants of 10,830,000 acres more,
making altogether 32,640,000 to be dis-
tMJsed of. Now, the sales by the United
Rttttes from 1860 tol869 wer« 11,770,000

acres ; but we are to double that quantity
in our sales. The lands disposed of in the
United States by tree grant and
under tree planting conditions during
eleven years from 1868 to 1871)
amounted to 47,140,000 acres; but
we are to sell in eleven years
21,760,000 acres, and dispose of
10,830,000 acres more free. Although I
quite admit that there are other con-
siderations to be regarded in this comjiari-
son ; that a largo quantity of lands was
in the same time disjiosed of by railway
companies in the United States, and that
therefore in applying their figures we
must make considerable allowances, still
I think these figures furnish us with some
ground on which to base our calculations.
I have no accurate information as to the
sales of railw.ay companies' lands. I do
not pi'etend to be able to inform the
House on the subject, but it is
well-known that the railway ])elts
in the United States are a.s a rule
infinitely narrower than ours, that the
United States itself owns the alternate
sections of these lands, and that the
greater portion of the land called railway
lands by us could u 't be so denominated
according to the system of the United
States. But we expect to sell twice as
many acres as the United States
sold in ten years. Well, may our
hopes be realised ! But can we
afford to venture the future of our
country upon the realisation of those
hopes ! That is the present question.
There is, however, a still more importan ;
point to refer to in connection with thi
subject. I will give the numbcn- of acres
taken up for farming purposes in the
twelve great States and Territories t(.
which I have referred, at three different
periods, as compared with the population.
In 1850 the population was 2,740,000.
The number of acres taken up was lut
35,000,000, or twelve and a half acres
per head. The number of acres of im-
proved land, was 12,900,000, under five
acres per head of tiie population. In
1860 the population was 5,010,000. The
land taken up was 67,450,000 acres or
twelve acres per head, and the improved
land six and one-third acres per head.
In 1870 the population was 8,665,000.
The Jand taken up was 95,190,000 or
undci t( 11 and a-haH acre& per head.
The improved land was under six and

a-lialf acres per head. You thus find th it
in thoHo States wliich are j)ointei to
as tlie exiiinph; on wliicli our
progress is to be l)ased, there were only
during the most progressive period twelve
.and a-hidt' acres of land per head taken
up for fiinns, and five or six acres per
head of improved lands. Compare this
with tiie figures the lion, gentleman has
given. ({rant him the 550,000 emi-
grants he estimates, he still assumes that
the.se will take up 32,0t0,O00, or more
t'lan fifty-nine acres per liead of the
population. The lion, gentleman may
say "tiiat is my liberality, I am offering
ever so much more land than United
States has given, and it is natural that
more land will be tak(!n up ])er head."
No doul)t that accounts for part of it,
■ though for how much, I will not pretend
to slatt;; but I hohl aiul believe that it
is impossiblt! seriously to act on the
assumption that nearly five times
the aci-eage per head will be
taken up in the North-West that
was taken up in the most prosperous
])eriod of the develo|)nient of tin States I
have mentioned. I think that the cal-
culalion of the hon. gentleman has been
demonstrated to be utterly fallacious.
It jtroves that either the hon. gentleman
lias over calculated the numy)er of settlers
on farm lands to the population, or that
Jie has over calculated the quantity of
1 md each .setthn- will take. One or
other of these propositions must
account for the ditlerence. You cannot
serio'^sl}^ assume that fifty-nine and
a-;iuarter acres iier head will be taken up
with us where the United States dispose of
only twelve and a-lialf acres to each head.
Can. ii: be said that experience proves the
probability of this calculation so satis-
Eietorily that i»> should commit our-
selves iriT'trieMibly on the chance of its
■I ealisation ? The.sejfigures are suggestive
also in another respect, that ot revenue,
to whicli I have inferred. You fhid the
proporcion improved is very small in pro
])ortion to the amount taken up, in the
earlier period not much more than one-
third, or four and three-quarter acres per
head. I quite agree that our lands being
largely prairie, we may expect to
improve or render productive more rapidly
a larger acreage than the average improved
acreage in the Western States, and due
iallowance is to be made for that circum-

.stanc?; but, making the most liberal
allowance, is it jKissible that from the ex-
tent of the improvements indicated by
these figures, a 1 irge amount in payments
on land,Hiaxes and revenue, can be realised
from the settler in the very early days ]
These figures, as to the acreage of
improved lands, ailding what amount in
reason you please for differences of con-
dition, show that the returns cannot, in
the early years, be very large, inasmuch
as what the settlers pay must consist of
surplus prolJts after Imilding houses,
barns, and fences, getting their hinds into
cultivation, and maintaining their families.
I affirm that the figures I have mentioned
do not justify the calculations of the
Government. But whatever you may
think as to the calculations considered up
to this ])oint, I hold it to be clear that the
estimates of the cash to be realised from
land sales are still more extravagant.
The (loveriimcnt expect to receive in
cash $38,000,000 in eleven years, which
would, exclusive of interest, be less than
half tb.e cost, abalance of over ,'?:52,000,000
being payiible later. The United States
realised in the eighty-three years up to
1871), from its public lands, i?204,r:00,000,
the average being $2,100,000 a
year. In the twenty years jireceding
1879 thfiv r.'alised $30,350,000, or an
average of $1,500,000 a year, which for
eleven years would make $10,500,000.
But this Government expects to realise
$38,5UO,OOOin eleven years! Of course
the lands sold by the Hallway Companies
in the United States are not ii eluded in
this calculation. Making every reason-
able allowance for this circumstance, and
havin" regard to tlie conditions of the
Canadian so-called railway belt, and as-
suming the average prices of the Goveru-
tiiCnt to be correct, the figures justify no
such expectation. But the Government's
calculations, made " by the highest
authority," are wholly fallacious. The
railway lands are divided into five belts,
and til • prices are, in each belt, $5, .*i, $3,
$2 and $1 respectively, which, taken
together, nuikes $15, suid divided by five,
the number of the belts, does, indeed, pro-
duce an average of $3 an acre, which is
the estimate of the Government. But
this, though a very simple, is not a scien-
tific or accurate method of arriving at
the true average price, because the various
belts difl^er in width. In the first and

liberal
the ex-
,ecl by

•ealised
' days '}
age of
)uut in
af con-
mot, in
asmuch
insist of
houses,
Ills into
aniilips.
mtiouod
of the
)U may
lered np
that the
ied from
avagant.
coive in
rs, which
l(>ss than
!,000,000
?d States
rs up to

,noo,ooo,

,000 a
)receding
), or an
Ivhich for
,500,000.
lo realise
if course
|oiu])iuiie3
eluded in
reason-
^luce, and
of the
and as-
Goverii-
justify no
srnment's
highest
bus. The
ive belts,
^5,^1, S3,
|;h, taken
by five,
|deecl, pro-
which is
lit. Buk
bt a scien-
,'ing at
lie various
first and

highe.st-priced belt the width is but five
mih;.s ; in the secontl, tit'tcen ; i» the third
and fourth, twenty, while the width of
the !t?l belt is fifty nulcs. The
tru(! a\ .'rage— assuming iis the Ciov-
trnment doey, the lands to bo taken
up according to their relative value and
attractiveness, and that the hnids will
bear the enhanced prices put on them, ac-
cording to their proximity to the railway,
instead of being !i?.'{ for these railway lands
is, when vou allow for the varying widths
of the belts, but $2.12^. 'This single
error, of course, reduces the receipts fioiii
the.se lands nearly one-third, or l)y several
millions. But the calculations as to the
preemptions is still nior(( anuising. The
(.lovernment calculate according to the
first Minister's statement that for the land
preempted they will receiv(> the same
average of $.'5 per acre, whilst the highest
price j)ayuble fo*' any jireempted land is
init )?2.r)0 an acre. This is the price for
the fir.st three belts. The fourth belt is
$2, and the big belt, which nearly eipials
in width all tlie others, $1 only, and con-
sequently, the average price tor these lan<ls
is !5>1.7i), or not much over oue-half the
estimate made " on the highest authority,"
which, by the figures given, would Hceni
to be calculated at 82.50 an acre.
I have thus pointed out how little this
House can depend on the (lovennnent
estimates. The general result of those
twoerroi-s is, that instead of !?:}8,50O,00O
being receivabh'from the.se lamls in eleven
years, only i?2;?,.'}50,0()0 will, on the
iiasis assumed by the (iovernment
itself, be received, or a <litierence
of >:? I ."1,210,000. And correcting the
same errors as to the sums reuuiiiiing due
at the close of the term, the estimate of
.*;.'52,750,000, for these sums renin ining
due must ll(^ reduced to S21, 020,0(10, a
ditierence of SI l,5iK),000, making a total
error of calculation of ^i;2(;,S:iO,000 in the
estimate presented to tiie ll'iuse l>y the
hon. the First Miinster, and endoi'sed by
the hon. the Ministers of i'inancc" and fif
Kailways, as the groinidwdrk tor our
action. I'nder these circunistances [am
not .-iirpiised that the hon genlieman
shoidd lia\t' felt it neces.sary to sav(t the
$10,000,000 he economised last week.
The extravagance of the e-<tiiuate is
.sjiowu in other ways. It seems thiit a
]inrcha.ser will pay on railway lands
SI, 2 10. 70 for a hjt, while the preeniptors.

at the same rate for their half, IGO acres,,
will j)ay at the highest $.522. 40, principal
and interi'st. But apait from tJiese error.-;
of calculation, reducing so largelv the
fund upon which we werti to depend for
building the (.'olumbia .section of the Can
ada Pacific Bail way, there are other con-
siilerations which wholly vitiate rhe
estimates of the hon. gentleman. The
avearge price to be realised largely
d( pends upon the sale of lands in the
nearer belts, and if anything occurs to
disturb the .sales in them, it is cpiite clear
that even the smaller avcrag** I have
stated cannot be realised. Then, not
merely the average price, lji\t the whole
sales depend upon the t/niracter of the
country. INIy hon. friend from Lambton
will kindly relieve nie from dLscussing in
detail this important jiuint, as having
looked at all the reports on tliat subject,
he will undertake the task of pointing
out what, according to our olHcial in-
formation, is the character of the country
in the railway belt. It will be found
that the map which the hon. gentleman
brought down last night, and in which ho
depicted the barren spots as brown, is not
at all " brown "' enough with reference to
the North- West. It does not by any
means accurately represent the extent of
the bad and inferior land in that country.
The hon. gentleman stated that he esti-
mated there were 150.000,000 acres of
good land in the Xorth-West ; but
he did not state that all that was
andde or wheat land; and I understand
from him in conver.'-ation that he does
not mean any such thing. It will be
fo'ind that tin; nundier of acres of wheat
land are not to be measured bv anvthint;
like those ligure.s. In fact, Mr. I'Memin^,
in a late jiapei-, ph'ces the wheat land at
,<1),(|()U,0(I0 acres, and tiie pasture land at
a like (|uantity. All estimates on this
subject are at present conjectural ; but,
\ (ioubtlcss, there is a \aRt ex[ia,i'se of fertile
land, though laciken by intervening
s]iaces of barren and inf^'iior sdil.s. There
is tiiere good land eiioiigh to support a very
largepopulation. 1 twill be found, Jiowever,
that lircumstanci s will prevent much
of the liigh-jiriced lands close to the rail-
way btdt b(«ing taken uj). There is bad
land close to the llailway. in many places,
barren, swamp and interior land. These
and other considerations show that, both
with reference in tlu sniallei' averajje,

■which is obtainablo only by assuinins*
that tlie himls near the Railway are all
good lands, and with reference to the
•general rate of pricefjj which ia reached
on an exaggerated view as to the quantity
of lirst-class land, the expectation of
the lion, gentleman is not likely to
be realised. It is obvious that if
there be Ijad lands close to the Railway
the settlers will not pay .*') an acre for
them. There is no object in being near
the Jiailway, if you can raise nothing
which you can send away by it. You
would rather be hfty miles away, on land
aipable of producing a crop, than close to
tlie line on a desert or a swamp. Another
circumstance which vitiates this estimate
is, that settlers will not l)uy railway
lands as long as free grants are obtainable.
I speak in tlie large. Of course there
will be instanc(!s in which a settler will
buy railway lands; and the capitalist who
wants more than 320 acres, will, doubt-
less, V)\iy railway lands adjoining his
free grant. But, speaking generally, you
will tind that settlers will not piu-chase
railway lands so long as fiee grants are
obtainable. There is a good reason why
they should not. Thej' get IGO acres free,
and the remainder on more favourable
terms than the purchaser of i-aihvay
lands, and, therefore, there will be, in
these earlier years, fewer settlers on rail-
way lands than the lion, gentleman cal-
culates. Another reason why tlier«; will
bo fewer purchases, by settlers, of railway
lands, is that the lion, gentleman has
placed a liaiiier in the way ot
such purchases by opening the raihvay
lands to speculators. Speculators are
following day by day, and hour by hour
in the track of the surveyors, finding out
tlie best sections of raihvay lands, parti-
cularly in the cheap outside belts, and
their entries are in the land otHce before
the rei)ort comes in ; not with the view
of settlement, but with th*; view ot
taking what people on the English stock
market call ', a long shot" — with the
view of investing ten cents an acre in
dollar lands, or twenty cents an acre in
two dollar lands, in the expectation that
after an interval of years the develop-
ment of the country will enable them to
exact enormously higher terms from the
settlers coming in. The hoH. gentleman
may delude this House by a return, this
jear or the next, into the notion that he

is going to make a great deal of money
by selling the rai^lway lands, because he
is tilling to speculators a large quantity
of chea|> lands on which the purchasers
are paying only ten or tw(>nty cents an
acre ; but the real and solid returns to
Glovernment from railway lands will be
what settlers will ultimately pay.
Those fioni buyers oii speculation
will be but insignilicant. What
the sett lers will jiay is tlie measure
of the true value of tho,se lands to us ; and
you are deliberately marring the chances
of developing that country, when you
place in the hands of speculatoi-s, upon
the payment of 10c. or 20c. an acre, the
choicest part of the railway lands; leav-
ing it to them to determine, at their good
pleasure, how soon and what prices the
intending emigrant may take them,
and begin to make them valu-
able and productive to himself
and the country. For the sake
of making a false show of soiling fa.st, you
are throwing away the best chances ot an
effective and useful disposition of these
lands. Then it is jiretended that the pre-
enii»tors will, at the end of three years,
])ay in bulk four-tenths of their pre-
emj)tion price with the interest. The lion,
gentleman seriously suggests that 3,000
homesteaders, who go in 1880, will, in
1883, pay in 8G!>(),0()0, or $232 a piece,
on account of their ])reeniptions ; thU the
next lot will pay !=^928,000; the third,
$1,000,000, and so on, until 18'J0, when
tlie sums to be paid in by
the preenij.tors will be $1,576,000.
I quite agree with the hon. gen-
tleman that the free-grant settlers
will, as a rule, take up their preemptions.
No douV)t they will enter for them, and pro-
ceed to improve them, but there is
ecjually little doubt that when the end of
the third year comes round, the hon. gen-
tleman's coll'ers will not bo much fuller,
by reason of the payments for preemp-
tions then falling due. I do not mean to
say he will not ultimately realise a con-
siderable sum ; but, I am talking of his
calculation, that he will build this Rail-
way in ten years practically out of receipts
fiom these lands. I say that all the
exjierience of all Governments Avith
reference to sales of public lands is that
the settler is slow to pay. Is the hon.
gentleman going to tell these men, who
have been straining every nerve to cuiti-

if money
cause he
quantity
irclmseis
cents an
iturns to
s will be
ly pay.
eculation
What
measure
us ; ami
e chances
fhen you
oi-s, upon
acre, the
(Is; leav-
lieir good
irices the
:o them,
ra valu-
himeelf
he sake
; fast, you
iices ot an
of these
it the pre-
ree years,
leir pre-
Thc hon.
luit 3,0(X)
, will, in
a piece,
, tint the
he third,
UO, when
in by
-) 76,000.
on. gen-
gettlers
■emptions.
11, and pro-
there is
lie end of
hon. gen-
ch fuller,
preemp-
It mean to
so a con-
ng of his
.his Rail-
»f receipts
all the
iits Avith
Is is that
the hon.
lien, who
to culti-

"vate and improve these lands during their
lirst three years, that unless they" tlien
pay uj) their preemption money, they
shall forfeit their preemption ? Is he
going to use the landlord policy with
reference to these fiettlers ? Is he going to
evict them 1 No ; he has no intention oi
doing that. He will not even threaten
them with eviction or forfeiture. I do
not hear much talk of Ihreatening even
the speculators in case of dcfavdt. Depend
on it, then; will be no such talk to the
settlers. Judging from all past ex-
perience, the result will be, that settlers
will feel secure — will feel that it is not
necessary for them to pay j>romi)tly ; and,
indeed, to create a feeling of insecurity,
by threats or harsh methods, would be
most detrimental to the settlement of the
<;ountry. Consequently, the calculations
based upon the punctual receipts of
revenue froui thi'se lands will be wholly
fjAlsiiied, even if all the other calculations
should turn out true. 1'he hou. gentle
man expects to receive, in the
fourth year, §1,870,000; in the following
year, .$l',G"22,0()0 ; in the next year,
!^3,-230,000; in the next year, i?l,llli",0'JO;
in the next year, ?i>t), 05(^,000 ; in the next
year li?5, 833,000 ; in thi; next year,
!|0, 87 7,000; while the last year of this
seri(!s of rapid progression is to yield
$7, 50:.', 000, to he received in casii from the
,sales of North-West lauds — an aggregate
of $38,593,000, apart from tiie sums not
yet due of .*32, 7 12,000. Now, I vouturs
to say, if every one of thcother calculatioue
be realihod, if the hon. goutlemangets into
that country the a»iiount of emigration
he expects, and at the time he exp(!Cts,
if he makes sales to the numbers and at
the prices he exj)ects, these calculations
.as to the dates and amounts of his re-
ceij»ts will, under no circumstances, be
realised. Under no circumstance.i will
he receive these sums, or anything like
them, at these times or anything like
them. Let the fourth and subsequent
years be the test. The receipts from
settlers in all the earlier period will be
relatively small ; and not before these
settlers, who can i^iy only out of their
.surplus profits aft<T improving their
lands and maintaining their families,
achieve prosperity and become able to
pay, will you find the lands becoming,
as they ought to be, a source of revenue to
the countiv,

Even according to the cor-

rected calculations, the Government would
be receiving in the fourth year J?l ,231,000,
running up to nearly .$5,000,000 in the
last year, so that these corrected calcula-
tions are, in this respect, almost as prepos-
terous as the original. Depend on it
your returns will be long deferred. Then
the hon. gentleman takes up the question
of the expenses of maudgement and sur-
veys, which he estimates at .*j)2, 400,000.
Now, judging by the results in the
United .States, that also is (juite too low.
You will remember that there is an
enormous acreage to be surveyed. If all
the lands were fairly good lauds,
and the survciys could l)e kept only
abreast of the settlement, you would
requii-e to survey 4'J,O0O,OU0 acres
to effect the settlement the hon. gen-
tleman expects, not that so much land
is to be taken u[) by that number of per-
sons ; but to give room for the expected
homesteaders to take u\) their free grants,
so many towi!.-.hi|ia as will couipriso
nearly 50,000,000 acres nnist be survt-yi^d.
But that is on the assunii)tion
that all the land to be surveyed is good
land, and that all the land surveyed will
be taken up. I say that is an assumption
we cannoi, reasonably net upon, since
there is bad and broken land, and since
you must keep surveys ahead of settle-
ment ; and it is more correct, perhaps, to
conjecture, as we are now in the region of
con'je>cture, that 80,000,000 will be tlu;
amount of acres required to be surveyed,
in order to ell'ect the disposal of the
smaller (piautity, than to conjecture that
50,000,000 will be the numljer. 'Jhe.i,
there is the cost of collecting all these
millions of money from all these tliou-
sands of men. I think the charge too
low. I do not know what the iuimigra-
tion policy of the Governuient is to be,
w^Iiether they intend largely to increase
the expense for that purpose or not, or to
devote the availal)le amount to tlu^ North-
West ; but it is obvious that, if these
lands are to bo rendered ju'oductive by
immigration, the cost of inducing immi
gration should t»e considered a first charge
upon the lands ; and that this, in addition
to the cost of surveys and management,
should reasonably be deducted from the
proceeds of the lands, before you, can
a[)ply anything to railway purposes. In-
deed, I may go further and say, that the
cost of payments for Indians of over

iSSHSOjOOO a year, and foi- tho Moiuitcd
Polie.' Force about $300,000 a year, in
all S8r)O,0OO a year, unci otiier local
cliar<;Hsi, are prior eliargos on tho proceeds
of tho lands. I maintain that the whole
thin<,'i.s visionary. Indood, I may remind
tho House that when the hon. gentleman
opened his romaiks, lu; demanded a oer-
tfiin postulate to he granted to him ; that
he declared later that he would prove his
figures to a demonstration ; and then at
the end he offered us to abate one-half.
" If yon will not," says he, " take the
whole of my estimate, take one-half." A
calculation commencing sc ])retentiously,
and terminating in so humiliating a man-
ner, was hardly, perhaps, worthy the
serious attention T have been compelled to
ask the House to give it. Now, with I'e-
ference to the api)li<;ation of all this money.
In the announcement of the First, Minis-
ter, he took ^38,000,000 to be received in
the eleven years, and deducted at the
close of thej)eriod 8i*, 400,000 for man-
agement, the net cash coming in being
tiius, S3(;, 200,000. Set this against
the .$60,000,000 he estimated to be
spent on the Pacific Piailwav, and there
is a small balance of Sli 1,000,000 ! Yet
the hon. genthMiian tells us the cost of the
road is to be met out of the land sales,
without encroacliing on our taxes. But
that is not tho true state of the account.
The hon. mend)er for (iloucester at once
pointed out that tho hon. Minister had
not allowed for the interest on the cost
of construction, and that this woi Id ab-
sorb a large ))art of the receijjty. To
d.at, no reply wms then made ; but the
next day the lion, the Finance ;^Tinister
acknowledged the justice of tha criti nsm,
and, in that free and off-hand manner in
whicli he is accustomed to deal with
niilUonsot monev, agrcal that!?l8,000,000
''or iuto're.st on the $()0,00",000 should be
deducted from th(> receipt. First, lie
would reduce the hon. First Minister's
estimate by half,then take off ■•$18,000,000
from the remainder, and still, said he,
enough remains to build the ro.id. Even
the 818,000,000 tho hon. the Finance
Minister was willing co deduct, does not
repreai«nt the true gtati; of the case. As
I said the other evening, we .shall have
spent, up to thfl .'?0th of June,
.^1.'"), 000,000, in round numbers, on the
Pacific Railway, the interest paid on
which, at only 1 jwr cent., would itmount

a year for
following years

to !?1, 272,000 up to that periad. But,
taking tho figures of the hon. JMinister
given the other night, namely, a further
expenditure of 8l0,0U0,000" a year for
the two tir-st years, and $5,000,000
each ot the eight
allowing interest on these
at T) per cent., and on the ohl balance at
4 per cent. ; and taking tho receipts from
lands as the hon. Minister iiimself errone-
ously estimated them, then the result would
be a yearly deficiency for interest so large
as to run up in the third year to83,332, 000,
and in the .sixth year to stand at $098,000.
The account gets to the credit side in the
year 1887, and from that time tho interest
is paid, and something is available to-
wards the principal ; but the practical re-
sult would be a credit, according to that
calculation, not compounding the interest
in the earlier period or crediting the later
yearly surjiluses to ca])ital until the close
of tho term, of $12,631,000 only to the
capital account of the Pacific Eailway.
But according to the corrected calcula-
tions, tlnu'e would be a deficit of interest,
swelling each year until in 1885 it reaches
a sum of over five millions, thence gradu-
ally diminishing, initil at the close of the
term it stands at $1,478,000, so that the
practical result woulil bo that, at the clo.se
of the term there would be nothing
acco nplished out of the proceeds of the
lands, except to pay the bulk of the
interest on the cost of construc-
tion, and the whole capital account,
with a portion of
remain due. Let me
re^ults'^the statement
First Minister gave him a
from lauds of 868,900,000,
expenditure of 860,000,000,
credit balance of 88,900,000.
reeted statement cives him a

interest, would
summarise these
of the hon.
n(5t return
against an
leaving a
Tho cor-
net return

I of 844,470,000 only, and an expenditure

! for princi])al of 860,000,000, and for in-

I terest, excluding arrears of interest, of

I ^23,-560,000, in all 883,500,000, leaving

I a deliit balance of $39,090,000— a trifling

' error in the grand result of about

I 848,000,0<}0. And, when you I'emembf.nr

that even this calculation is, as I have

proved, based upon wholly visionary esti-

mtites, I think it is established that, as

business men, we cannot build largely

on the taxes of this country being

lightened in respect of tho construction

of this Ilailwaj within the next few years.

3.1. ruit,

jNIinister

!i further

your for

n.ooo.ooo

,0 eiglit
st on theHe
l)alimce at
eipts from
olf orrone-
sult would
st ao large
3,332,000,

, s6<jy,ooo.

side in the
;he interest
ailable to-
>raotical rc-
ng to that
;ho interest
ig the later
il the close
inly to the
c Railway,
ed calcula-
of interest,
j.') it roaches
enc(! gradu-
ilose of the
■io that the
at th(! close
bo nothing
eeds of the
ulk of the
construc-
,1 account.
st, would
ivrise those
the hon.
n(it return
aL;';vinst an
leaving a
Tiu! cor-
Inot return
^xpendltui'o
uul for in-
jntorost, of
|)00, leaving
— a trilling
of about
Il I'emenib'.-r
as I have
kionary esti-
Id that, as
lild largely
Ltry being
lonstruction
[t few years.

My conclusion is tluB, that altliough we
may receive, and I lio[io we will receive,
in the time to come, a coiuiiderablo
revenue from our lands in tlie North-
West, yet wo cannot, as prudent mon,
expect that we will early receive such a
large amount, or anything ai)proachiug
ing it, or anything approaching
one-half the amount which the
hon. Minister suggested ; that wo
cannot expect that the immodiate chftrge
and strain upon the resources of the coun-
try, involved in the Ministerial programme,
will be early relieved by tiio receipts from
lands. Wo must look, tlnnefore, to our
other resources for tlie present bearing of
that strain, and when those largo receiiits
do couK! in they will come in only to re-
coup us for the long years of arrears of
i.iiorest which will nioantimo liave ac-
crued, and will not do much towards tlio
liquidation of the original cost. These
fantastic calculations do not bear investi-
gation. The/ are based on extravagant
Bpeculatious in everything tending to in-
crease tho receipts, and on (.Troneous
figures besoi^s ; they are based on un-
trustworthy ' stimates in every tiling tend-
ing to dimiiii h the charge, and on erro-
neous figured • '.udes ; and, on tlie whole,
I declarethat u > sane business man w.nild
incur large liabiji*^ies on the olianco of
meeting them o.it of such resources.
Now, Sir, I for car), have no wish to
prevent any expend ''ure which is essen-
tial for the settleniont of tlie country.
I wish the House to understand that that
is, at any rate, no part of my policy.
On that subject, as I have said, the die is
cast. Most of us believe that we have a
prospect there ; and I want all to unite
in the effort tp realise that prospect. I
think even those who do not lielieve it to
others do will agree in
I wish that we should
direct our exertions to every step cal-
culated to make the best of that country ;
to settle it at the earliest day ; to give it
as soon as possible a productive pojjula-
tiou, and to make it a prosperous and
influential portion of the Dominion. It
is because I want the great experiment to
have a fair chance of siiccess, because I
believe that, committed as we are, it is
our doty and our interest to give it that
chance of success, that I implore the
House tp direct its undivided attention at
present to this point ; to apply the avail-
3

be so bright

a:5

making tlie efibrt.

able reHOurces, scanty as they are, of this
country, oxclu^lvely to thiit backbone of
tlie whole enterprise, witliout the success
of which theie can never bo a Pacific
Railway from sea to sea, without the sue-
ce«s of which our wlioh; plan lunl future
may be scattered to tiu* winds. Pru-
dence in our expendituK! is essential
to the succe.ss of settloinout. Do you
suppose that those intelligent persons who
' art; about to emigrate to this country will
bo attracted or ro[)olled by the proposal to
expend $30,000,000 in the gorges of
Bi'itish (.'olumliia ! Do you sii[ii)0He that
tiie suggestion that we can afford to ex-
pend this large sum at present, i)ecaust*
these setthnvi will repay it in taxes and
land purchases, is calculated tn encourage
them to go into that country ? Do you
suppose that these pooplo, scanning the
pulley and prograimn.- uf tlio Adniinistra-
tion upon this subject, and undorstanding
that this vast expenditure is to lio at onct;
incurred because they will pay it all, may
not say, " perhaps we had better not join,
perhaps we had bettor not bo partwors in
this gigantic undertaking if we alone arc
to meet the expense." Prudence in the
limitation of our burdens, prudence aa to
tho increase of the Xatiunal Debt, pru-
donoo as to every enterprise tho Govern-
ment are undertaking at the same timo
tliat they are undertaking the settlement
of this country, is an essential condition
to the success of their ellbrt at
colonisation. Do not frighten away those
who might join us, by your lavish and
reckless engagements, based on their
anticipated payments and their expected'
taxes. Our position is critical, and wo
should husband our resources fur what
that position may demaLiJ. The
hon. Minister himself stated yuiiterdty
that Canada stood in a critical j)osition
I agree with him, and standing in that
position — more critical in ir.y \ iow, per-
haps, than in tho hon. gcut'euau'.s — it is
doubly necessar;- that we should t.il. ■ care
not to undertake just now mor: m.^n is
generally agreed to bo essontli- tq i'.".
success and the future of our coiiutr^-.
Tide us over for the present, and li' your
expectations are realised, if y u repeive
these large sums within the short period
you have predicted, if within four or five
years these sums are paid into the Trea-
sury, thpn it will lie soon enough to
decide that there is a i)ractical basis upon

which business men cnn act ; soon enough
to agree that there is a foundation upon
which we can procewl to build in British
Cohiiubiiu Then we can honestly tell our
constituents that there is money, obtained
from the lands, out of which the Railway
can be built, without further adding to
their })urdons. But, in the nieantimo, wo
L-annot honestly say this ; wo cannot show
them that the resources of this country,
without using means raised by the
heavy burdens of taxation levied for the
purpose, will suffice to build the Railway
in British Columbia ; and I, for one,
stand opposed to the expenditure of these
heavy taxes in any such way. And now,
having shown that we cannot depend on
the sales, and must look to the taxes, at
present, to meet the proposed expendi-
ture, it is necessary to ascertain our pro-
sent condition, as compared with our
condition in 1871, and to examine into
the state and resources of this country.
Circumstances render it extremely
difficult to form an accurate estimate of
our position. Fortunately, we are called
upon to form an estimate now, not for
one or two years, but for a series of years.
We have a policy, a ; m for ten years,
before us, and we are, therefore,
called upon to measure the future
of this country for a long term.
The best course is to look back
a little and see whether from the lessons
of the past we can derive any light to be
shed upon our future condition. It is
difficult, as I have said, to deal, even in a
series of years, with the question of the
progress ot tins country. The vicissi-
tudes of the seasons, upon which depend
our main industry and source of wealth,
the changes in the markets of the world,
in the price of fi[rain, and in the price of
lumber, our principal articles of export,
the changes in the world's trade, the suc-
ceeding depressions and inflations whijch
i-esult in alterations in the profits of our
shipping business, and in the cost of the
goods we import, all these cii-cumstances
reivler it an extremely difficult task for a
Knance Minister from time to time to
forecast the future of Canada, even for a
short eighteen months ; and it is with un-
feigned diffidence that I ventare to offer
some general observations with reference
to the past as throwing light on the present
and future of our country. For three years
after Confederation the amount of our

imports was almost stationary. Th*»
times wore hard. That period was fol-
lowed by NOV era I years of tremendous
inflation. 'i'he hon. member for Card-
well rdlftrred to ono circumstance, which,
no doubt reduced to some extent tin;
apparent amount of our imports, namely,
our illicit trade with the United States.
Thoro was also the excessive value of
commodities. Those circumstances, no
doubt, ai'e to be considered as modifying
the ai)parent inflation. But, apart from
the question of illicit trade, these inflated
values only sliow after all that we gut
less for our money. They do not prove
that we paid less money. A'ter tliis
period of inflation, there have followed
iour yoai-s of over widening and deepen-
ing depression ; and the first question I
put i^, how far our tax-jiaying pjwers
have really increased since 1871, wlien it
was resolved that we should not increase
the existing rate of taxation in order to
complete the Tacific Railway. Two
factors have lO be considered in order
to solve this question — first, the increase?
of population — secondly the increase of
resources. Increase of population does
not necessarily mean increase of tax-
paying })owor. We may have more
heads, but each head may be poorer, and
consequently there may be a smaller
acfgregute of suiplus wealth, though
divided among a larger number of heads.
In this case there would be no increast
of tax-paying jjower. I do not believe
that the people of Canada are, on the
whole, able to ])ay more taxes per head
to-day than in 1871. There has been an
enormous shrinkage in our lumber trade,
from 828,000,000 in one year to
^13,000,000 in another. There have
been many bad crops. There haa been a
great shrinkage in bank stocks, and a
number of these institutions has been
swept awav' altogether. There has been
a great depreciation in real estate, not so
much aa compared with 1871, but suffi-
cient to be destructive of any increase
between 1871 and 1879. There has been
ageneralaudlongprevailing and deep state
of depression in trade and commerce,
resulting in the loss of an enormous
amount of dapital. Besides this, there
haa been a large increase in federal,
provincial, munioipal, corporate, and
private indebtedness. Anyone who listen-
ed to the debate, the other day, could not

tint 1)0 appalled by tliu HtutonieiitH an to
the amount loaned on niortgageH in the
Province of Ontario. Added to ull this,
there has beoii an npwiinl turn in the
prico of gold, whieli m unfavounihlo to all
itorrowing and indebted coimnunitifs.
Against thesf nnfavourahlo circuiiistanceH
are to be set expenditiui-H, which have
taken the form of asuotH. \V'(! have niado
largo fedend, provincial, corporate and
private improvements. But these aro
represented in part by prcnuiturc or mis-
directed applicati.fns of capital. No one
will pretend that the Intel colonial Kail-
way, located as it in, is a ffood commercial
Hpeculation ; and several llailways in
Ontario and elsewhere have been con-
structed at a time and nn routi^.s which
|irevent their value iVom e|Ualliu;^ their
cost. Many of thest; public work.s
will in future be wvy valuable,
but at present they do not form an addi-
tion to our resources commensurate with
the burdens they involve. Tlie tax-pay-
ing powers of the pe()j)lo of Canada, man
for man, are, I repeat, no greater than in
1871. One proof of that is, we are
actually buying less. For tour years the
\mports have been diminishing. Last
year they reached the lowest j^oint for
nine year.". It may bo truly said that
we bought less in nominal value, because
goods were ch-japer, and we got more for
our money ; but that observation does
not hold good to the full extent to which
it is sometimes advanced, lor values in
1871 had not reachi d their aiaximura,
and were not so far above those for 187!)
as to account, to any adequate extent, for
this difference in tke amount of our im-
portations. The truth is that we are not
buying largely, because we are too poor
to buy largely — we cannot aflford it. And
this, as I said, is a corroborative proof
that w« are not better able, man for man,
to pfiy taxes than in 1871. Nor will
an inflation next year, or the year
after, if there should be one, alter the
facts. We do not proceed by regular
steps, we go up and down ; and on this
occasion it is our rate of progress for
a series of years, not for a year or two,
that we are called on to consider. Speak-
ing generally, in view of the history of
the last decade, and in view of our re-
sources and our true elements of pros-
perity, old Canada cannot expect a genuine
rapid increase of her resources. I hope

for progress ; though it will be hinderetl
by our Tariff laws. The hon. genthimen
opposite hope for progress on account of
our Tariff' laws. IJoth aro agreed iu
hoping for progr«ss. That there will b«
progress I have no doubt, but I think it
will not bo such as to interfere with the
correctness of the calculations I am
making. I call on those who indulge in
more sanguine hopes to give a reason for
the faith that is in them. I btl-Vve hard
work, rigid economy, prudent manage-
ment, and gradual progress and accumu-
lation is the fate of this country,
as a whole, and of its populatinn individu-
ally. [ regard it as no uidiappy fate, 1
regard it as possessing great and compen-
sating advantages Kioin the character
of our climate, and tlic naliu'e of our
resources, and other circumstances, from
tlu! necessities of our situation, we aro
taught to practice virtues whose pos.se.s-
sion is a full compensation for the absence
of tho.so ; someAvliat easier conditions of
life, those more lightly earned gains,
those brighter material proHi)ectH which
may, perhaps, be obs(!rved in some other
land.H. Sturdy independence, maidy labour,
vigorous exertion, prudent self-restraint,
wise economy and temperance, these aro
great and satisfying compensations ; but.
Sir, we must show ourappreciatiou of those
virtues by an earnest elibrt to piactice
them, not merely in private life, but as
the distinguishing characteristics of our
national existence. If we do not, wc; fail;
and when you find in this country appa-
rent progress by leaps and bounds, you
may conclude that that progress is more
more fictitious than real, and will
be followed by disaster which will
sweep away our fictitiou.«» gains, and
leave us poorer than before. Now, Sir,
assuming that our tax-paying power is no
greater, man for man, than in 1871, we
have only to ascertain the increase of popu-
lation since that time. The hon. Minis-
terof Finance roughly estimated our popu-
lation the other day at 4,000,000, that is,
including the new Provinces. For ob-
vious reasons I take, for the old Provinces,
the rate of increase demonstrated by the
last Census, although I think that too
large an estimate ; and I make out our
population at 4,050,000, including the
now Provinces, which, for this purpose,
may be reckoned at something under
200,000. Now, of the new Prorincea, it

.1(5

may Iw rapeatel that whatovnr tlieir tux
paying powura, their tdx (.'onmiining
powtjin ar«) Htill more romiirkahle. 1
have an interoHting tahic ot' tbo rflsults
M to the collHclion ami diHtrihiitioii
of our Rdvenuo for tlic tirat ten yearn
after ConfodiM-ation, which will aiiswor
thn prudent (piory of the hon.
Finance Minister yestcnhiy, in re-
forence to the tax-;)ayiii^; power of
Manitoba and BritiHh ( '()lmiil)ia. when he
asked why we Hhoiild not count on a largo
net revenue from the Noith-WoHt, having
jvgard to die oxainph' turaishod l>y tlioso
Provinces, Now, Sir, assigning to each
I'roviiioi' the rev<'iiiui derived from it, as
s'lown l\v the Piihlii; Accounts, and charg-
ing each Provinc" with its local services,
and with sucli pruts of the Fedcr.d ner
vices as are Ity the I'uhlic Accounts dis-
tinguished and assigned to the soparato
Provinces, tlio results ai'e as fo!h)ws :
A\'o collected in all .*i;)f<,(lO(>,000 ; we
spent in all 1^' 189, .'500,000 ; leaving a sur-
]>lu3 of ,?S,ii.-iO,(l()0. The receipts from
Manitol)awere!$S7(),()0(),th(! distinguished
expenditure, $l,.'')yv»,00(> ; tiio deficit on
tliis head, .S72-J,O00. For Prince Edward
Tsland the I'oceip's were !?l,.*)'.H),()0() ; the
expenditure, !?2,G24,O00 ; the deficit,
$1,027,000. For British Columhia the
receipts were .S2,55f<,000 ; the ex))endi-
ture, .$.$,441,000; the deficit, !i?88;5, 000.
For Nova S^-otia the receipts wero
8 10,11 2,000; the expenditure .f 2 1, 17o,000;
the deficit .«2,O6O,O0O. Then there
come the rocoi])t3 and expenditure
on joint itccount for .services not
•livided among the Provinces, for exam-
jtie, I.egislatinn, Civil Government, a large
part of the interest on the Public Debt,
!uid other undivided items, and all the ex-
ponditures in connection with the Nortli-
Wo-*t and the Pacific Railway. For
these the receipts were ?;7,.5y9,OO0 ; the
expenditure, i$.>0.581,000 ; the deficit,
842,982,000 ; adding to this the aggregate
of the provincial deficits before st.ited,
you find a to<al deficit of 847,077,000.
Nov/, how was this met! We come to
tlie sur])luses. The receipts from New
Jirunswick were $17,106,000; the ex-
penditure, .':;ir),9.^)7,000, leaving a surplus
of .'3508,000. The receipts from Ontario
and Quebec, jointly, wero $149,100,000 ;
the exijenditure, 893,340,000 ; leaving a
surplus of iS-^S, 820,000, thus making,
with the New Brunswick surplus, a total

HurphiH for these three ProvinoeH of
Quebec, Ontario and New Hritniwick, of
$.'^ifl,.l2H,000, to be applied to the pay-
ment of thn deticits before enumerated,
amounting in the aggregate to
."^l 7,077,000, h-aving, after their pay-
ment, a nett balance of 8H,0.")0,000
applicable to the reduction of debt. We
find, therefore, that Ontario and Quebec
have to provide and have provided for the
liulk of this vast undivided expenditure re-
sulting from the Confederation of the
various Pro\ inces comprising the Domin-
ion ; New Ihunswick having supplied
towards her share the sum of !j.')OH,000,
and Ontario and (.Quebec, after providing
their own sh:ire, having provided tlio
share al.so of all the other Provinces of
the othei'wise) (niprovided bal!inc(>s. 1
have not divided the various items for
Ontario and QucIk-c, wiiich are given
jointly in the Pu!)lic Accounts ; but tak-
ing a few great heads of llevenuo, a gen-
eral conclusion may be reached. Thus
the Excise duties of Ontario amounted to
.'=!2<;, 732,000 ; those of Quebec to
§13,017,000. Tlie Customs duties for
()ut<irio (allowing those on dutiable goods
going into Ontario, though entered at
Montreal, according to the results ascer-
tiiined after exhaustive eximination by
the Commisaion which dealt with
that subject some years ago), amount-
ed to .SGO,72."),000. -.16 Customs dutie.s
for Quebec amoiinted, according to
the .su,nic results, to $31,3r)7,00i). I
estimate the diviaion of Bill Stamps to be
two-thirds for Ontario, and one-third for
Quebec, making $1,106,000 for the for
mcr, and $r).'>2,000 for the latter. The
general result on these heads is to give a
revenue from Ontario of 887,954,000,
and from Quebec of $45,550,000. I
know that these figures may be disputed
in some respects by the people of the
^Maritime Provinces as to particular
items; for examide, those which have I'e-
ference to exi>enditure on the Inter-
colonial Railway. I know it is con-
tended, whether rightly or wrongly, that
this expenditure should be entered as a
general charge against the whole Domin-
ion, and not charged separatel}' against
those Provinco-i. There may bs, of course,
other disputable details. I state this in
order that the House may understand
that theser figures may be somewhat
affected, but I am convinced that the re.

^^"

.< •.

iiioeH o\
wick, of
th« pay-
I aerated,
ate to
nir pay-
i,Gr)0,()()0
»)t. We
1 Quebec
III tor th«
iliture re-
in of the
(• Doiuin-

Kll|)|)li«cl

il.OOH.OOO,
jiroviding
vidi'cl the

)vill('()8 of
lUCl'H. I

itoius for
ire givun
Init tak-
uo, a gca-
hI. Thus
loiuitoi to
K'heC to
(llliie^^ for
iiKlo goods
putorod at
,ults aaccr-
iiatiou by
alt with
iiinoiint-
ins duties
)r(liug to
7, 00 5. I
inps to be
tliird for
tho for
ttor. The
to give a
',1)54,000,
G.OOD. I
disputed
pie of the
particular
li have re-
Lho Inter-
it is con-
ngly, that
tored as a
(' Domin-
y against
of course,
te this in
understand
somewhat
lat the re.

Bult will not 1)6 very inuterinlly altered on !
that account. It will b«t Neon from thtmu j
HtatisticH that homia of tho Nniallor I'ro- |
vinccH, heavy as their oontribulionH are —
and I frtH'ly admit that Nnv-
eral of them are lieavior contributors
]Mr cupitii than some of the
larger I'rovinces — are yet not atjecjuato
contributors to, on the contrary that tlu'y
are heavy drains on tho revenues of
Canada ; and it will bo further seen that
the bulk of the expe»diture— I may say
every shilling of the ez|K>nditure on t\u)
North-West and on the I'acilic Railway
— is contributed by the Province from
which I havu the honor to come. But
apart from the question of tho tlistribu-
tiou of taxation, I have shown that our
gross taxpaying power, as a whole, nuiy
be said to have been incrt'aHcd since 1871
by the addition of 5(iO,000 soula, or six-
teen per cent, to our population ; that is,
that if we can, or if wo choose, to buy,
man for man, gooils to the same amount
in money, as wo bought man for man in
1871, our consumption of imported or
excisable goods, and consefpieutly our
revenue would, un<ler the sume rates of
taxation, be larger by 1(5 per cent. This
tlion is the estimat(!<l measure of elasticity
— not indeed the actual measure, for, as I
have said, we are not buying, we cannot
atVord to buy, on the game scale —
and, therefore, it is altogether too
favourable a view for us to take.
But let us adopt it for a moment ; and
proceed to enquire at what rate our ex-
penditures have increased during the same
time. Bir, the increase in expenditures
has been altogether disproportionate to
the increase, even on the most favourable
view, of our tax paying power. Our
gross expenditures have risen from
f 15,600,000, in 1871. to $24,800,000, in
1879 ; an increase ot 18,800,001), or nearly
ftS per cent. I This, indeed, includes the
charges on Revenue, which, in some
cases, are representedby cross entries ;
but, on the whole, the charges on Revenue
have increasd seriously, relatively to the
inci'eased receipts. There are, in this
branch of the expenditure, large added
burdens. For example, in the Post Office,
the deficiency, in 1871, was $203,000 ; in
1879, it was $612,000 ; an increasetl net
charge of nearly 200 per cent. In Public
Works, there was, in 1871, a surplus of
$315,000; in 1879, a deficit of $817,000;

an ad verse change of ov<(ri?l,0( (0,000. Hut,
leaving out of account all the chargen
on H(!venue, how does the remaining
exiM-nditurn compare I In 1871, it was
$13,2f>0,00() ; in 1879, « 1 8,890,000 ; an
increaae of $r), (540,000, or over 4^ per
cent. Look at some of the items which
produce this appalling result. The capi-
tal of our net debt stood in 1871, at
$77,700,000 ; in 1879, it had risen to
$147,480,000. It had almost doubled.
It has since increased, so that it is now
more than doubled ; and still it goes
rolling on. Our net anrnnil charge for
interest was in 1871, $4,800,000; in
1879, $0,060,000 ; an increase of
$2,360,000, or nearly 55 per cent. ; and
it still goes rolling on. The increase in
the charge for interest has not indeed
kept pace with that of capital, for several
reasons. We have raised a largo sum
fronx our i)eople without intereit, in the
shape of legal tenders in circulation,
and compulsorily held as bank reserves.
We have issued several guaranteed loans
at \tiry low rates of interest. Wo
have reborrowed to pay off old
loans at a much lower rate of
interest than the raDo they bore ;
we have borrowed fresh n;oney at better
rates ; and we have been borrowing at a
discount, which, of course, means that
wo have been capitalising a material
l)art of our charge for interest. But with
all those advantages, real and apparent,
I believe, our nett annual charge for in-
terest will, by .'{0th June next, be in-
creased by $2,700,000, a yenr or nearly
6;i percent. The truth is, Sir, that our
annual foreign loans are now not,
much more than enough to jiny our
interest. Some part of them, indeed,
have been of late years devoted in
terms to that purpose ; we have had
yearly deficits, and have been obliged to
borrow to pay our interest. But apart
from this, the average annual loans to be
raised for the next few years for Public
Works will be not much greater in
amount than our yearly interest pay-
ments. Can we go on so borrowing for
everl No, Sir, and the Minister who
tells us he can, has yet prudently arranged
to avoid an application to the London
money market this year; and is about to try
his hand at a cheap domestic loan. He is
to ask us at home, out of our abundance, to
supply him free of interest with the sun

Le wautH. PaKsing from the cliarge for
debt, .soiuo of tlie items -wliich coiuiirise
the (irdiiiary auuvial oxpeiuliture show
startJiiig increases. The Provincial Sub-
sidies Iiave increased 31 percent.; Civil
Ciovernmeiit, 34 per cent., with an enor-
mous fur.hei- increase in the present J^sti-
males ; A'lminis ration of Justice, 83 per
cent. ; Peiiiii'ntiarie.s, 4G percent. ; Indian
grants, by if;, 80,000 ; Nortli-West Police,
by ?r2*JO,000 ; in Legislation there has
been an en' rniuns increase ; with a general
i-esulr, tljat the ordinary expenditure has
increased between 1871 and 1879, by
.■J2,;3oO,()00, or over 50 per cent. In the
face of this startling and wholly dispro-
portionate increase of our expenditiir'''s
over our tax paying powQr, is it not plain
that we liav(! licen going too fast 1 We
have been running ahead of our resources.
We iiave increasing our expenses
more thi'U three times as fast as
our tix-pi^ying power. Our situa-
tion is truly critical. We have been
iuntatiiig, and even surpassing, the extra-
vag.ince and recklessness of the nations
composing the European .system. The
Euioj'vau mttions in the fourteen years
from 1864 to 1879, increased their Na
tionul Debts G5 jier cent, in the aggregate ;
but v,'<; have doubled ours in nine years.
The budgets of those nations were in-
creased in the last fourteen years 40 ])er
cent. ; iitit we have inciijased ours ;")(] jjer.
cent, in i.ine years. It is quite true that
our e>^ endiiuie has been more produc-
tive tiian theirs. We have not been
eng:ige p in numerous or frightlully ex-
pensive wars. We have expended large
.sums ill iinj)rovements more or less pro-
ductive. But for all that, we have been im-
moderate in our expenditure, we have
act< 1 extravagLintly, we have gone be
youil ,•»! i x-paying power, and we have
surpassed the European .system in the in-
crease of our annual charge. I say we
should not present to intending immi-
grants such a siniilarity in financial man-
agement to the coinitrios which they are
loa ing, mainly because of their heavy
burdens. We sho"ld rather endeavour
to present to thetn a cheering contrast to
to the European system ; and this
the more because there is one
country, our rival and competitor in the
immigration market, which does present
a marked contraBt to the European sys-
tem. While Canada is so lavishly in-

her yearly expenditure and
National Debt, tlie United States Las pre-
sented to the people of Euro|)ethe uniijuo
example of an enormous reduction in its
National Debt, and it is that fact which
constitutes one of our greatest dilHculties
in competing with that country for immi
grants. I dare say the lion, gentleman
will accuse mo of being "unpatriotic,"
but it is no use blinking the facts. It is not
unjiatriotic to say what is true.

Sir CHAHLES TUPPEli : The hon.
gentleman mistakes if he thinks 1 object
to his stating the fact that a protectionist
nation has suc9,eeded in riiilucing its debt.
1 should certainly not make any such ob-
jections.

Mit. BLAKE : I am not nowdiscnssing
the general question of Eieetiade and
Protection. However achieved, these are
the results. Nor must it be forgotten
that a part of the inciease in Ei rope has
been applied to public improvements.
Much ])ublic money has been expended
in the construction of railwaysthere. May
not the emigrant, flying from burdens
in his owii country — Hying from an
enormous National Debt and an-
nual Budget, say that it is prudent for
for him to fly to a cuuntry which pre-
sents a contrast to the one he is ltu\ ing,
which shows a continually decrt asing
debt, and which, theiefpre, promises to
lighten the buidtns of taxation 1 Vv'e do
not pre.'-ent that contrast — the Urn led
States do present that contrast. Tliey
tell the emigrant that they have reduced
their debt by §030,000,000, their interest
by a still larger relative amount, their mili-
tary expenses enormously, and that they
are presenting a pro.spect of progress in
the same direction. Why should we not
emulate their plan, by placing, so far as
our circumstances permit, this con-
trast before emigrants, instcHd of follow-
ing the example «et by the old countries
from which Ave expect thtm to come {
The LTnited States has reduced its
National Debt by 30 per cent, of its
pi-esent amount ; and its Budget, though
large and extravagant compared to its
scale before the war, and embracing many
millions for war pensions and interest on
war debt, now compares not unfavour-
ably with our own. Before the war the
expenditure of th^ United States, with a
population of twenty-seven and one-hidf
millions, showed a charge of $2 a head.

3§

Of course we pay large sums for provincial
services, wliich clo not in tlie United
States form part of t!ie federal charge. It
is i)e;-fe(Mly true that a comparison would
be unfair without a very large reduction on
that account, but, nuikin<; that large
reduction, it is equally true that the com-
parison is not unfavourable after all ; that
our system has become extravagant and
onerous, and has gone beyond the in-
crease of tho tax-paying powers of the
country; and it is time to call a halt. In
this expenditure there is included
$1,272,000 for interest already paid on
the Pacific Railway. There will be in-
cluded $600,000 a year for future interest
on the past expenditure on that Railway,
and untold sums for interest on the
further expenditure. How have we met
all tiiis, while our tax-paying powers
have been increasing so slowly ? How
have we made both ends meet ] Partly
by fresh loans, and partly by ailding to
the taxation of the people. The hon.
Finj.nce Minister said, the other day,
that the difference between the taxes of
1868 and 1879 was a dollar p'^r head,
and that the increased taxation thus cal- I
dilated was four millions of dollars. He
gave us the figures by a rougli calcula- j
tion. According to my view, the figures '
for that period, so calculated, would bo '
§l,10i),000, but I hold tliat this
mode of computation is not . a
fair way of determining tho real
addition to the burdens of the
people, and that they have been in
trutli increas(;d to a much larger extent.
That mode might be fair on the assump-
tion that the people were consuming
relatively the same amount of goods as
formerly ; but if in fact we are consum-
ing a (siiuiller value per head of goods,
wiiile we are paying a larger sum per
head oi taxes, it is obvious that the added
taxation upon that limited consumption,
which ahtiieour poverty permits, has risen
to a greater amount than $1,400,000, and
and to a larger amount than $1 a head.
Suppose, for example, that our imports
for consumption were diminished by one
half, wliile the taxes we paid remained
the same aa before, it is obvious that the
burdi.n of taxation on imports would be
dou'led. It becomes necesaary then to
ascertain and compare the rates of taxation
of- 1871 and 1880. Thei-e are three
principal heads of taxation — first, Bill

Stamps, to which it is not necessary to refer
as the amount is not very large, and there
has been no material change in the tax.
Taking up the second head, the duties of
Excise, I will not trouble the House with
any calculations as to malt and malt
liquors, because the increased tax has now
been taken off. Tlie duty on spirits,
estimated on the quantity entered for con-
sumption in 1879, at the rate collected in
J880, would be $3,650,000 ; and on the
same quantity, at the rate for 1871,
82,750,000. The iiicrea.sed taxis, there-
fore, $900,000, or 33 per cent, of an
addition. It may be alleged that the
quantity entered for consumption in 1879
was abnormally large, and consequently,
that the gross sum of $900 000 is in ex-
cess of the increase on actual consumption.
Were this so, it would not, of course,
affect the rate of increase which would
remain at 33 per cent. But 1 dispute
the allegation, for it will be found tliat the
quantity warehoused in 1879, is furbelow
the corrected average for tho nine years
from 1871 to 1879, and is almost equal
to the uncorrected average for that period.
It is, tl'.erefore, obviously not an
excessive consumption. I admit that
the hon. gentleman can hardly expect
so great a consumption this year, but, in
my opinion, that is largely due to the
fact that the tax has been raised beyond
tho true point of greatest productiveness.
Tlie magnitude of the tax has given rise
to a great deal of smuggling or illicit
distillation, thus interfering with the
revenue, tiiough jiot with tho consumption,
or with tlie cost to the jieople. I hope
that the hon. gentleman may be right in
attriVtutiug some part of the diminution
to the prevalence of soundiu- \ii!wa, as to
the wisdom of abstaining from the use
of liquor. But, after -11, the test which
I have applied, ij the only fair one, and
this proves that the quantity is not ex-
cessive. As to tobacco, the duty on the
quantity entered for con.sum|)tion, in 1879,
at the rates for 1880, would be $ 1 ,580,000.
At the rates for 1871, $1,140,000. The
inci-eased tax is, therefore, $440,000, or
39 per cent, of an addition. The con-
sumption is below the corrected average
tor tho nine years, and, of course,
far below the uncorrected average.
It is, therefore, clear that this represents
\ the minimum addition en this
head. The result then is that the

■ r .

increased excise on spirits and tobacco is
$1,840,< 00, or over 34 per cant, of an
additio:.. Now I come to the last and
greatest head of taxation, the Customs'
duties ; and I wish to show the House
what is the increase in taxation on thi»
head on the whole mass of the imported
goods, dutiable and free, which we con-
sume. To ascertain our consumption it
is obvious that you must not take the
total importaticns ; nor can you, wit8
propriety, take the goods entered for con-
sumption But by deducting from these
the value of foreign grains and the proditcts
of foreig.i grains i^nported, since these ar-
ticles are practically only in transitu, and
are either exported in specie or set free for
exportation an equivalent amount of
home grain, you arrive, as nearly as
the information given by our returns will
allow, at the quantity of imported goods,
free and dutiable, which we actually con-
sume. This forms the basis of my calcu-
lation. Allowing for the temporary
duties imposed iu 1870, and taken off in
1871, by a proceeding which came into
operation prior to the date of the taxation
resolution, the rate of taxation on the
imported goods, free and dutiable, which
were consumed in the four years from 1867
to 1871 was, upon the average, 13.90 per
cent. This, then, I take to be a fair as-
certainment of the burden of our Cus-
toms taxation in lo71. But I may say
that, even if you make no allowance lor
the temporary duties to which I have re-
ferred, the average rate will be
raised only to 14.21 per cent., an increase
which you will see is not sufficient
materially to affect the results. During
the subsequent three years (1872, 1873
and 1874), in the course of which there
were considerable remissions of taxation,
and in which also the very large con-
sumption may have somewhat disturbed
tlie relation between the quantities of free
and of dutiable goods, the average rate fell
to 12.33 percent. In 1875, tht; first com-
pleted year after the increase made under
the late Government, the rate was 14,32
p3r cent., a large increase indeed, an
increase of nearly one-sixth, on
the average of the preceding three
years, but after all a very trifling
increase, an inci-ease of "only one-thirty-
third, on the average rate between 1868
aud 1871. But what is the rate now, as
aHCcrtained by the return for the first six

the last six months
paying the lower

months of the year 1 It is no less than
19.62 per cent. Nof does this represent
the whole extent of the increase. The
lion. Minister has told us that his revenue
is suffering by reason of the excessive im-
portation of gobds in anticipation of the
tariff. But the goods so imported were,
of course, those of the class on which the
largest increases were to be made. Of
these, therefore, there has be§n an exces-
sive supply, and by consequence an ab-
i normal proportion of the importations for
have been of goods
rates of duty. The
over-importations being absorbed, and the
imports reverting to their normal condi-
tion, these proportions will be changed,
and consequently the average rate
will be higher for the current six
months ; and, in the future, the
Tariff will be found to inflict
a charge ,>nsiderably exceeding 20
per cent, on everything free or dutiable
entered for consumption. But apart from
this consideration, and assuming 19.62
per cent, to be the true I'ate, consider
what this means compared with 13.90
per cent., the earlier rate. It means a
new tax, a fresh tax, of O4 per cent, on
the value of everything free and dutiable
which we import for consumption. It
means an increased rate of taxation of
over 43 per cent., for 5.72 is more than
43 per cent, on 13.90. Our Customs
duties are nearly half as heavy again a.s
they were in the early perioti. Now, if
you apply the new Tariff to our very small
cousumptionfor 1879, a consumption many
millions smaller than that of 1871, and
smaller than any year thereafter, tlie in-
creased taxation will, on that small con-
sumption, be $4,075,000, and this, on the
incredible assumption that wo are not to
increase the value of our imports, is the
very smallest measure of our added Cus-
toms taxation. If to that you add
$1,340,000, the increase iu Excise,
you find that the additional tax-
of this country on the
consumption of 1879 was more
^5,400,000. This is far greater
the hou. Minister's estimate of
I $4,000,000, but it is far less than the
I burden will be in case the consumption
j should become normal. It is true that
the smallness of the v: lue imi)orted. in
' 1879, is partly due to the comparative
I cheapness of goods, but we must not for-

ation
small
than :
than

leas than
represent
lase. The
is revenue
iosaive im-
•ju of the
irted were,
which the
made. Of
L an exces-
nce an ab-
^tations for
. of goods
luty. The
led, and the
mal condi-
e changed,
'erage rate
urrent six
iture, the
to inflict
jeeding 20
or dutiable
t apart from
uing 19.62
ite, consider
with 13.90
t means a
per cent, on
md dutiable
mption. It
taxation of
is more than
)ur Customs
vy again as
Now, if
ir very small
nption many
3f 1871, and
after, the in-
small con-
this, on the
I are not to
wrts, is the
added Cus-
it you add
in Excise,
itional tax-
on the
was more
far greater
estimate of
ess than th«>
consumption
ia true that
imiK)rted. in
comparative
must not for-

get that I have been comparing it with
1871, when values, though higher than
in 1879, had not gone nearly to their
highest point ; and after making every
allowance for cheapness there remains a
large deficiency to be accounted for only by
the consideratior that our poverty and
our economy have led us to stint our-
selves. But prices are rising, and hon.
gentlemen say, good times are coming.
What would this Tariff produce on a con-
sumption of the average from 1872 to
1875, $109,000,0001 You can easily
tell. It is about one-fifth. It would
take out of your pockets in
Customs nearly <522,000,000 1 But
let as try to rnive at a normal
consumption. You can roach it in
two ways. Take the consumption
of 1871 and add IG per cent, to represent
the increase of population. This vould
give you, for 1879, a consump'aon of
.$91,300,000. Or take together the nine
yeai'S of inflation and depression, ending
Avith 1879, and the uncorrected average
would be $91,000,000, less than the pro-
l)er estimate, of course, but coming vor\'
close to the figure reached by the other
mode. Assume, then, that for us, in
1879, $91,000,000 would be a normal
consumption of imported goods, you
would pay in Customs $17,850,000; in
Excise of spirits and tobacco, $5,230,000 ;
in all $23,080,000. While, at the old
rates, you woiild have paid in Customs
$12,650,000; in Excise, $3,890,000; in all
$16,540,000, an increased burden on your
normal consu nption of over $6,500,000.
And this is a fair estimate of the result
of the Taritt" at the Custom-house
and Inland Revenue Office. It is,
indeed, quite clear that, with higher
prices and good times, i\ie hon.
Minister should get a Kevenue. When,
on an average, one-fifth part of everything
we require to import, great or small, cheap
or dear, necessary or luxury, raw material
or manufactured article, free or dutiable,
iUid two-fifth ]iarts of what we drink
and smoke are abstracted by Gov-
ernment for jjublic uses, how in the
world can Government fail to realise a
lievenue i And yet, if things should so
turn out, no doubt we shall find tlio hon.
the Minister coming down next Session
boasting of his feat, and endeavouring to
persuade the country that he has conferred
on it great blessings, when he has in fact

only abstracted from it enormous sums by
a raking and grinding Tarifl", which is
oppressive in its character and vexatious
in its operation. But this id not all, Sir,
or nearly all. We have been considering
hitherta only the amounts that come into
the hon. Minister's hands. But the un-
counted uiillioup which go into the
pockets of the thousands of ju'ivate tax-
gatherers created by this Tariff, partly to
unduly swell the legitimate profits of
some industries, and the rest to
compensate for the misdirected and
unprofitable application of capital and
labour to other trades ; these millions
though they are paid by the mass of the
consumers, as surely as if they went into
the ^linister's hands, we are unable to
ascertain or take into account. But this
we know, that their receipt does not swell
the Public Treasure. The people pay
them, but the private, not the public tax
gatherer receives them ; and so, though
the people pay, they receive nothing in
return. Sir, we have reached and passed,
designedly passed, in m;iny cases, the
effective limits of a Revenue Tariff. We
have been aiming at different and incon-
sistent ends. Pursuing revenue through
imports, we have been attempting at the
same time to check imports, on which our
revenue depends, and to substitute for
them home manufactures. And certain
it is, that unless the hon. gentleman has
wholly miscalculated his action, unless he
has wholly bungled in the use of tli«
great weapon he has been wielding,
he will have stimulated home manu-
respect of some of
of importation most
revenue. It is certain
that ho will have deprived the coffers of
the country of the duties to be derived
from those articles.

Sir SAMUEL L. TILLEY : As in the
United States for instance.

Mr. BLAKE : I do not propose, as I
have already said, just now to enter into
a geneTivl discussion of Free-trado and
Protecti'-n, or to analyse the condition
of the United States, or to examine how
far they may be able to endure losses and
to play tricks with tJie principles of poli-
tical economy, which we can by no means
aflbrd. I think the distinctions are
obvious. Nor do I intend to hazard a
conjecture as to which of the two inconsis-
tent objects which the hon. gentleman

frtctures in
the articles
productive of

has been pursuing he will earliest or most
signally succeed in. I say that an effect
will be sooner or later produced ; and
while in case of good crops and high
prices there is no doubt the last Customs
revenue will next yoar be increased ;
there is no doubt, also, that a very lai-ge
sum will bo sooner or later — and I think
tolerably soon — diverted from the Custom-
houso to the pockets of individuals.
It is plain, by the admission of the hon.
gentleman to the extent of $4,000,000,
and, by the figures I have stated to a
much largor amount, that wo havegreatly
increased the burden of our taxacion, and
that every dollar that we are paying and
aretopay for interest on the construction
of the Pacific Railway, has come find must
I'ome out of this incrcxsod taxation, or
from further additions to our burdens.
It is obvious that you cannot meet in
any other way the additional interest for
the construction of the Railway ; and,
therefore, your i)lan is a deliberate viola-
tion of the settled and established policy ot
Parliament. To our present load we are
to add many millions more for that work,
and whore, save from these odious and op-
pressive added taxes under which we
labour, can you find tho intei'est { Even
apart from the Pacific Railway, and fur-
ther expenditure on it, we are in a criti-
cal condition. Wa are trving one "veat
experiment in ti'ade. We are engaged
in a supreme effort to make both
ends meet in finance. Wo have
not yet accomplished that feat.
The hon. gentleman said a month
or six weeks ago that the Revenue for
this year would be within half a million
of tho expenditure. I wonder whether
he will say so when he moves the second
reading of the Supply Bill? We
Oil this side believo the deficiency
will be a great deal more. We
are not yet in a state of equilibrium
as to receipts and expenditure. We are
engaged, I say, in one great experiment.
Is one great experiment not enough at a
time 1 Would it not be better not to
plunge too deeply into experiments, specu-
lations and conjectures? Would it not
bo better, as we are engaged in this largo
financial, commercial and fiscal venture,
not to enter into fresh pecuniary en-
gagements of an enormous character,
based upon expectations of the vaguest
nd moat fantastic kind ? Are we now

finally to subvert tho policy of Parlia-
ment re-enacted, as I have pointed out
four several times, agreed to almost unani-
mously in 1876, that tho arrangements
for the construction of this road should
be such as not to increase the burdens of
taxation ? Because, if you agree to the
scheme of tho Government, and go on
now with tho construction of the road in
British Columbia, you commit yourselves
to tho construction of that road irrespec-
tive of tho increased rate of taxation, and
of the burdens imposed and to be im-
posed upon the country. I ask the House
not to adopt that ruinous and reckless
conrs(^ ; but in preference, to say they
will limit themselves at present to tho
coni[)letion of tho road 'ueLwciCU Fort
William i'ud Bolkirk,aud tin; prosecution
of the i)rairio sectioi), until we nev. the
actual result in point of sottloment, de-
velopment, land sales and, above all,
i-eceipts of purchase money; and then,
when that result has been ascertained,
and a substantial fund has been provided
from the sales, a fund available
for the purpose of building in British
Columbia without continuing to levy
the present increased rates of taxation,
that they will then, and not till then
begin construction in British Columbia.
Sir, we must consider the circumstances
of this whole Confederation. We must
not forget the mode in which it was
formed. Hon. gentlemen opposite^ af-
firmed, with great warmth, in 1867, and
for years afterwards, that it was but a
union on paper, and that tho reality and
permanence of the connection were yet to
be established and secured by a careful
policy, and by a practical experience on
the part of the people of its benefits. A
cynic, indeed, has said that, as lietween
Ontario and Quebec, it was rather a
divorce than a union ;,that Nova Scotia
was coerced into it, and compen-
sated by damages for the loss of
her honour ; that New Brunswick
was frightened into it, and compensated
as well ; that Manitoba was forced, and
purchased into it, too ; and that Prince
Edward Island and British Columbia
were — shall I say seduced into it ? by
pledges and promises — some impossible,
all extravagant; at any rate by settle-
ments of the most lavish character. But
whether this description be true or not,
at any rate hon. gentlemen admit that

are broken. The
from the smaller
capita than you

it was at first a union only on paper,
want to know what haa been done to
cement it, to make it veal and permanent,
to make it a union of hearts and inter-
ests, to give it vita'iity and strength 1
Look at the various Provinces. Almost
every one, after all your better terms, is
in deep financial ditficulties, and is
knocking at your doors for fur-
ther aid. Imitating your extrava-
gance th-^y have outrun their re-
sources, and they liave come to
'look on you as the great tax-gatherers for
the Provinces, believing that they may
go as far as they please and that Canada
must fill the void out of the federal
revenues. You have seen the distribution
of your revenues and your expenditure.
You remember all the promises at the
time of union, of low taxes and cheap
government. All, all
vast sums you collect
Provinces, lieavier ^jjj
collect from old Canada, and a
burthen on their people, are yet,as I have
shown you, quite inadequate to meet
their share of the cost of confederation.
Ontario settles the bilance. That Pro-
vince asks no special advantages. She
claims no special favours. She is ready
to do her part, and more than her part,
in the furtherance of the common
interest. But she may fairly de-
mand • of you a prudent, a
just, an economical exi^enditure of those
resources which .she contributes, and an
abstinence from rash engagements for
speculative and unprofitable objects.
This indeed is the common interest. It is
the interest of the whole,
present application of our
Public works and improvements through-
out the old Provinces have been, as fai as
possible, wholly stopped ; there is no
money for them ! Our inland shipping
trade, labouring under the greatest de-
pression and the keenest competition, is
asking for relief from some of its burdens ;
there is no money for it ! The vast ex-
penditure by which Quebec has strained
her resources to accomplish a connection
with the great west is largely abortive,
Let Quebec learn the prudence of not
building railways before they are wanted,
and act on the lesson now ; there is no
money for the eastern link t No, Sir,
all that we can raise by taxes or by loans,
all that we can beg or bon-ow, b to be

I sunk in the gorges of the Fraser. Should
this be so 1 Are we to tax ourselves to
the last point of endurance, and to mort-
gage heavily our future and our country \/
for such an object as this ? If it be true,
as your trusted representative, your Higli
Commissioner, said on the 27th March
last, that " The duty of opening up the
North- West is one we are to perform, not
so much for oursslves as for the Empire
at large; that the inhabitants of New
Brunswick, Nova Scotia anJ even On-
tario, have not much greater direct in-
terest in opening up those wheat fields
than the farmers of Yorkshire and Tip-
perary ;" if this be true, how much less in-
terest have we in opening up thi canons and
gorges of British Columbia 1 If it be
true, as your High Commissioner said,
on the same occasion, that, "it is im-
possible for us with our limited moans to
undertake alone the settlement ot the
Norfeh-West; that we have neither the peo-
ple nor the money to do it;" if this be true,
how much less are we able to add to that
intolerable task the Columbia section of
the Kailway ? Is thit indeed the way to
develoj) even such a poor and attenuated
I national spirit 'as is attainalile by a
people who are not psrmitttd, who, per-
, haps, do not even aspire lo their legiti-
mate participation in the niimigement of
the concerns of the great lamily of
nations ? Is this indeed tli'* way to in-
fuse among us the spirit of unity and
I brotherly love, to make ns one, and a
. contented people 1 You \a;\y perhaps
! partly satisfy the 12,00) souls in
! British Columbia ; but only because your
What is the ! action is the pledge and hostage to them for
revenue 1 ; the completion of this gigantic work, to
the ruin of the whole. For us, for all,
this is not the way. It is not by the forced
connection of a restrictive Tariff, com-
pelling each of us to trade with some
other of us, to our loss, and against our
will ; it is not by the fatal load of an
enoiTOOus debt, crushing out our energies
and mortgaging our hopes ; it is not by
an added weight of taxes, lowering the
value of our labours, and lessening the
comfort of our lives ; it is not by flinging,
with a lavish hand, into the mountains
and rivers of Columbia all you can collect
or borrow, while you starve all public
works at home ; that you will accomp-
lish a real suooess, that you will con-
solidate and harmonise the union. You

I .

are making our load heavier than that
of the Unitfid States. You are making
it heavier than we can bear. You are
paving the vay to that very annexation
which you profess to dread ; because yoii
are bringing us to a plight in which we
may be forced to do, as a people, what we
lieard described the other day as the sad
end ot many an imjirudent individual
borrower, to sell our poor equity
of redemption to the only avail-
able purchaser. You profess un-
bounded fiiith in the permanence
of your restrictive Tariff; you blame us
for even discussing its operation, for
throwing doubts oil its durability ; and at
the same instant you send a Higii Com-
missioner to England, who asks her to
close her ports ugainst the grain of the
world, in order tliat your farmers and
hers may obtain from her millions of
poor a higher price for the staff of life ;
and, who proposes in return, that you
should open your ports to her' manu-
factures, thus destroying your revenue,
and at the same time, under the fierce
and unchecked competition of the clieaj)-
est producers in the world, blasting at
once every one of your home industries,
which is said to be dependent on a duty
for its existence. Such is your reck-
less, your inconsistent, your vacillating,
vo'.ir unpractical policy ! Do you ask for
mine i I will tell it. Set free the springs
of legitimate revenue, by removing the
obstacles designed to choke them. Open
the avenues of legitimate trade, by lowei'-
ing the legislative bars designed to close
them. Free the people, as soon as iray

be, from the extortionate taxation by
which you oiipresa them. Return to a
moderate revenue tariff, the only prac-
ticable plan in our circumstances, and a
necessary incident in whose operation is
to give some of the so called advantages of
protection to some of your native industries.
By an earnest and searching plan of econo-
my and retrenclmient, directed to every
branch of the j)ublic service, help to
redress the balance between revenue and
expenditure, while you lighten the peo-
ple's burdens. But if you will do none
of the.se things, if you will in all else
persist in your mad career, at any rate
in this bfl wise. If, in all else, you be
rash, in this at any rate be discreet.
Learn that our position is grave and
serious, and that our future is dependent
on present prudence. Complete the Rail-
way to Red River ; go on with the
prairie section as fast as settlement de-
mauds. For that, risk something ; since,
as I h.ive said, the die is cast. But in
order to succeed in that, in order that
you may have a chance later to do more,
deal with that alone nosv. Bend
to that great effort your undivided ener-
gies, your whole available resources.
Postpone, meanwhile, the western work,
and do not, by your present action,
based on airy dreams and vain imagina-
tions, risk the ruin of your countrv.
Sir, I move, " to leave out all the words
after ' that' and insert the following :
' the public interests I'equire that the
work of constructing the Pacific Railway
in British Columbia should be poat-
noned.'"

1 .

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ixation by
eturii to a
only prac-
ices, and a
leration is
vantages of
industries.
,n of econo-

I to every
e, help to
jvenue and
ill the peo-

II do none
in all else
it any rate
Ise, you be
e discreet,
grave and
dependent
.e the Raii-

with tho
lenient de-
ing; since,
,t. But in
order that
o do more,
V. Bend
t'ided ener-

resources.
tern work,
nt action,
n imagina-
r country.

the words
following :

that the

ic Railway

be post-

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