IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) :/j i.c I.I 1.25 ? "^ IIIIM im M IIIIIM r'l P^ "^ '>> %'^^" ^/ W I ' Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 V iV ^^ o ^9) .V ^2^^ 6^ ^ ^ CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHM/ICMH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historicaf Microreproductions / institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques Technical and Bibliograpiiic Notes/Notes techniques et bibliographiques The Institute has attempted to obtain the best original copy available for filming. Features of tifis copy which may be bibliographically unique, which may alter any of the images in the reproduction, or which may significantly change the usual method of filming, are checked below. n Coloured covers/ Couverture de couieur I I Covers damaged/ Couverture endommagie Covers restored and/or laminated/ Couverture restaur^ et/ou pellicui^e r~n Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque □ Coloured maps/ Cartes <} in Km'Kjyatiun. Khc thinks ,slu! ciin iilVonl it— ami I Imvo no doubt slio does think i( wise to ranko such ii pnicticnl oiler to our stru,i,'c,'hnf,' and KulT.rinM- pooplo. Thou the cxporinicnt in worth bcinjj tried by this country" And you, my lord, us ii poor of the rciihn, with tho ri«,'ht hon. gentleman who sits noar you, the member for Lambeth, and thr other members of the House of Commons whom I seo in this room, will not, I am per.suadcd, hold your peace until that most timely otter has been dealt with by our (iovernmcnt. This is union, indeed; this is somethin-^' like wisdom. They come of the old stock, these men of Canada, and we may well be proud of them ; they are doinj? for their country what I suppose wc should do in similar circumstances for our own ; but wJiat a iiyure •we should cut in history and in our own domestic policy with this despatch on the table of both Houses, if our Government were to say we do not know what to do with it, or how to do with it, and have no means whatever for complying with it ! We liave in this country plenty of spare hands and spare gold. To-day is th. cardinal day in this question. On this day this despatch is laid on the table of the TJntish Parliament, and on this day Consols have touched par ; so that you have more money in the City than yon know how to invest profitably, and more labour and skill in Uie country than you know how to employ advantageously. How can you do better than l)y investing in Colonies what they now ask of you, thereby rescuing whole families from discontent and despond- ency at home? (Cheers.) Of course the Canadian Government have said, " To do this we must each exercise a control." Although they do not use the Avord, I have no objection to use it ; it is the word " veto." It is impossible to conceive that they would allow such a promise as theirs to be abused, even unintentionally, by having the wrong sort of people sent to them ; and therefore there- ought to be a joint Commission appointed by the two Governments with equal powers of supervision ; the Canadian Commissioner in England having the absolute veto as to the persons and famihes who shall be sent to take those farms, and the British Commissioner in Canada having absolute power and control to see that the enfeoflmont is completed in each case, and that lands fertile and arable are given to the people whom we on our part should bear the cost of sending forth to occupy them. We shall hear talk about difficulties. I am not inclined to underrate the difKculties in this matter. I have never found any- thing much worth doing that was not difficult. I believe the busi- ness of a nian in life is to conquer difficulties. Wlicn we attempted formerly in Parliament to stir the sluggish conscience of the nation Imprrinl (lcs ; and you cannot make a system of omi;^ratiou for one* Colony alone ; you must make terms all round." We havo ficvcn ^loat self-^'overuin.ij Colonics, and wc could not he parties to any proforeneo for thia or tho other Colony shown by tho En;;lish Treasury ; and consc(iuontly wo had to en- counter tho dilliculties of distance; and I own that, ar;:,ming as wo try to do nif,'ht after ni.irlit in favour of an elastic sort of coniribu- tivo cmij^'ration, tho oiu) thini,' I always hoard hissing in n:. ear was that hateful word "distance," ami when it was uttered it was hardly possible to answer it. But distance is practically no more, 'ralk of tho ago of heroes fidl "of nivth and fable; wo live in an ago of fultillcd miracles. Distance i i at an end ; wo can whisper to friends in Australia, and get answer back unfailingly. There is no longer any excuse of this kind available. Sciouco has swept it off its legs; and what a dogonerato raco we should be if, having a share in tho wealthiest realm on earth, having been given this marvellous power of the telegraph, wo cannot make all parts of tho Empire conscious of a common interest and an undivided social vitahty ! Separate Colonies, like separate families, are never known to be of the same mind for any length of time ; and the ditterenfc circumstances of tho Colonies, you all well know, render it impos- sible for anyone to suppose or to assume that they are likely to bo equally anxious for emigration and the interchange of labour at tho same time. On the contrary, my belief is that, from tho disparity of conditions, ^vo shall never see tho day when they will bo all in the same mood on this question. But cannot a wise old country wait for the change of mind when each in succession may be ready to contribute with us to secure an oxehango of benefits ? What is the good of political economy if it does not teach us this ? Wo have found out tho truth of political economy in tho supply of food ; that as nature did not please the harvests everywhere should bo simultaneously good or bad, it was the best policy to have access at all times to the fullest granaries of the world. (Hear, hear.) ♦So with regard to labour ; because it is impossible to believe that Melbourne and Manitoba should always be of the same mind, or, if you please, at all ; and that New Zealand and South Africa should always think alike about Aborigines on a given day, we argued that un elastic system should be constituted for facilitating emigration 10 Imperial and Colonial rartnerskip in Emi(jvation. ■whither aud only whither, when and only when, it was clearly understood to be desirable and desired by each Colony. But distance is, or ought to be, henceforth omitted in our calcu- lations, and I contend that it is the poHcy of this country to say to her imperial daughters, " Wiienevcr you want spare labour, and will give our people parcels of free laut , wf will from our Treasury bo glad to contribute the cost of the voyage and outfit." In mov- ing for this despatch, I thought it becoming not to ask for the reply. I wish the Government to have the longest possible time to consider what answer they would send. I have never known anything accomplished of a grave or difficult character by pressing it impor- tunately or impatiently. But let the people of Ireland know what the people of Canada are ready to offer them. Now, up to the pre- sent time, this project of a transplantation treaty is simply unilateral — it is simply a proposition which comes from the other side of the water; 'nt 1 think it is no breach of confidence to say that I da know t' . Lord Kimberley, in acknowledging its receipt, intimated to Loi-. Lome that he had forwarded it to the Authorities in Ireland to hear what thev would say to it. I do not know what better he could have done : only, as I was once in the service of the Government of Ireland myself, I would venture to hope that he will not let the matter sleep. (Laughter.) The season is advancing ; it is no easy matter to send out emigrants with any advantage to themselves at the wrong season of the year ; and although there are other places to which they may be sent in autumn, I do not understand that it would be wise to defer tne movement very long if it is to be begun this year. I hope with all my heart and soul that the coming Land Bill will be a safe, a wise, and a permanent measure. Nothing will redound more to the credit of tlie statesmen row in power, and nothing can redound more to the discredit of men who are called irresponsible — that is, men who are not members of the Government— if they should attempt to stillo any promising attempt to cleanse the bosom of the people from the perilous stuff which weighs upon the heart. (Hear, hear.) But I say without hesitation — and I hope you will not differ from me in the sentiment— that if an angel from heaven were to come and frame a Land Bill, it could not by any possibility be made equally applicable to all the varied wants of the graziers- of Leinster, the tenant-right occupiers of Ulster, the dairy-farmers of Munster, and the rack-rented cottiers of Connaught. No change in the incidents of tenure, or in the liability, to eornpcnsato for eviction, would rescue these poor people ni the far-west of Ireland from the deplorable condition of overcrowding. The alternative n. Impcrhd and Colonial Partnership in Emir/ration. 11 } clearly IV calcu- -y to say our, and rreasury In mov- Le reply, consider mything it impor- low what 1 the pre- milateral de of the lat I da ntimated »rities in low what ce of the it he will vanciug ; uitage to gh there I do not very long I Bill will [ redound thing can onsible — —if they he bosom he heart. ) you will n heaven )Ossibility 3 grazier* y-farmers^ [o change liisatc foi' if Ireland Iternativft offer of means for emigration by famihes, ancillary to the relief held forth by land reform, would give that measure its best chance of working successfully. (Hear, lieai .) Nothing will give confidenco but the interposition of the Government in the genuineness of the sclieme ; and that element ought to be introduced, if it is to be tried at all, that people may have the security that promises will bo redeemecl, and that they will be freed from their present state of insecurity and want. Well, while the Governor and Privy Council of Canada were engaged in elaborating this minute and speeding it to England, other great folk were engaged in somewhat different work— namely, the Commission which was issued to inquire into the state of agriculture in the United Kingdom, and the second Commission which was issued to inquire particularly into the rela- tions subsisting between landlord and tenant in Ireland. These were separate bodies, one more numerous than the other, but botli comprising eminent and experienced men chosen without distinction of sect or party. At the head of one was the Duke of Richmond and of the other Lord Bcssborough, and they made reports very different in their recommendations. I don't say that in any carping spirit ; it was natural, perhaps, that on many topics they should express different views. Their suggestions have now been made public. Both sets of Commissioners differed amongst themselves. There was a majority and a minority in each who made separate reports. But only three of the total number dissented from the majority of nineteen that nothing would be sufficient without emi- gration ix'^m the west of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Well, it is very remarkable that these distinguished persons simultaneously come to the same result ; they can hardly be all wrong. (Hear, hear.) His Grace of Eichmond and twelve of his colleagues, after months. of investigation, say : — " Emigration is a subject too famiUar to need explanation here, but it must be noticed that all the witnesses lay a particular stress upon two conditions for its success in Ireland — the one, that whole families should be taken ; and the other, that the emigrants should be accompanied by those in whom they havo' confidence, such as their clergy, and that the places of their future settlement should be allotted to them for their new homes before- they leave their old ones. There is reason to suppose that some of our Colopial possessions would co-operate in the necessary arrange- ments ;" while Lord Carhngford and the remaining five who consti- tuted the minority declare that "an effort should be made t» - relieve, by State intervention, the ovorpenpled districts, especially of the west, by the methods of assisted voluntary emigration." Tha O'Connor Don, himself a proprietor in Roscommon, and identified I 12 ImiJerial (Did Colonial Partnership in Emir/ration. by sympathy anrl experience with all that is best worth knowing in the traditions anil ho^es of his people, truly observes, " There are parts of Ireland in which the condition of things is such that no alteration in the tenure of land or the amount of rent could really ficcoraplish any lasting effect. There are portions of Ireland in which the land is so bad, and is so thickly populated, that the question of tenure and rent are mere trifles. If the present occu- piers had the land for ever, and for nothing, they could not in the best of years live decently, and in bad years they must be in a state of starvation. Here wo have a totally different problem to meet from that which prevails elsewhere. From these districts there must be either emigration or migration. A very largo proportion of the population must go to foreign and more fertile countries, or they must be removed to other portions of this island." Mr. Kavanagh, with other antecedents and prepossessions, from the garden of South Leinstor attests the same truth. " In my opinion, the circumstances of these over-populated districts can only be dealt with by State interference, in the way ^f a liberal and humane scheme of emigration, by sending the people out in charge of their ministers to the largo and fertile districts of unpopulated land in Western Canada, where homes and the means of acquiring their living could be provided for them, such as they could never have in this country, and opportunities would be afforded to enlarge the holdings of those who remain behind." Finally, I would invoke the authority of one of the few statesmen of our time, who happens to be qualified by personal experience to speak with contldeuce of the actual needs and capabilities of agri- cultural life on opposite sides of the ocean, and their correlative condition. A man of signal talent, and who will not be soon for- gotten in Canada, and certainly not in this country — I mean Lord Duff'erin — differs from both Commissions ; and after an eloquent and searching criticism of their views, he winds up an able letter by saying how he had seen Manitoba waving like a sea of golden corn, and how he longed for the day when those in Ireland, who had not the power of getting farms lit to live upon, should have a share in the prolific plains of which but the smallest part had yet been brought into cultivation. Without such aid Lord Dufferin believes no Land Bill will suffice. That is the opinion of one who, having had experience in both Ireland and Canada, points to emi- gration us the bridge over the Avauts of both. But time would fail to multiply testimonies. I think I have given you enough ; at least, if these be not authorities, I know not what are. For my Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigraiion. 13 part, I have the conviction that the plan could bo worked out, now, if public opinion willed it. It may be said that the majority of the Catholic and Presbyterian clergy will not advise their people to go. I believe their misgiving mainly springs from the fact that when younger members of a family, unwilling to be a burden to their friends, go forth singly, they seem to break away from all the moral and social influences which bind people together. We know as a matter of fact that tens of thousands going into a foreign country like the United States, do not in crowded cities always come to good. Therefore it is very natural and reasonable, and I think very right, that the pastors of the people should look with anxiety at the consequences of their uncared-for dispersion. It is not the stalwart youth, it is not the husband or father of thirty years of age that you ought to take from the family, leaving the old people, and the children to be a burden to the country— you should do what Lord Lome's despatch specifies, what the Duke of Richmond's Commission specifies, what two out of five of Lord Bessborough's Commission specifies, namely, you must take the whole family. (Cheers.) Canada does not want a man to forsake his children merely to become a lodger in the land or a worker by job on the railway, and after he has earned his money to desert to the States. The emigrant is offered not a ladder to climb by, but a homestead to dwell in ; 40 acres first to begin with, 40s. freehold acres, and if you show you till them you shall have 40 more at the same price, and if you continue on and settle down and strike root in the soil you shall have the other 80 acres ; and at the small market price within limits, you shall have, over and above these a preferential claim to another 16o acres adjacent thereto. Why, this is letting me" have fee-farms, and no mistake. I met a friend the other day who, speaking of the discontented peasantry of the West, said : " What do you call these men, are they labourers or farmers ?" I said, " They wished to be called small farmers ; " and he said, " Look at the price they ofi'ered to pay for this land, which you say is hardly worth cultivating." I said, " The fact is this, that they are farmers in everything except that they cannot get farms deserving the name." Here, then, is a project for giving them what they want, and giving it to them for next to nothing. (Hear, hear.) It must, however, be stipulated that the cost of going out and provision for the first few months, what- ever it may be, must be advanced by Government. My friend Mr IMako, the member for Water ford, is liere, who has been all over the country, and puts the cost higher than the Minute of Council of Canada puts it : Mr Tuke, whose writings are well known to 14 Imperial and Colonial Partnershi}) in Emirjration. yon all, is likewise present tliis evening, and lie takes the account in a somewhat different way. I have no estimate of my own to put forward in this matter. The outlay in question would bo safe if you make it the first charge on the land, and repay the Treasury here by deferred instalments. Is it not better to spend it so than to spend it in poor-rates and prisons? (Hear, hear.) You cannot keep the people as they arc without their being discontented, and it is the dearest bargain to proclaim peace and then have to enforce it. But why, it will be said, not leave the outflow of adventure to find its own unregulated way ? More than a quarter of a million quitted our shores last year in search of steadier wages and securer homes, of whom one -third were Irish. Of these no fewer than 83,000, most of them unmarried, went to the United States, and but 10,000 to the Colonies. Wliatcver else may be deduced from these facts, they prove incoatestably that there is no antipathy in Ireland to transplantation; and we know by the experience of many years that those who go forth do not forget their kinsfolk left behind, but that out of their savings tboy continually send back enough to mitigate their lot, or enable them to follow. Surely a people who act thus are likely to make good colonists. In parable the bees have ever been held up as the worthiest of hardworkers and thriftiest of housekeepers, for human imitation ; but our Celtic brethren are better than the bees, for when the young hive off they not only store their own new cells, but help to replenish those they were forced to quit for want of room. Now what we urge is that care should be taken to attract the annual swarms to our own Colonial fields rather than suffer them to stray beyond the confines of thu iimpire. It is sometimes said that people who are bred in the humid atmosphere of Ireland, and who in that part of the country seldom know what a hard frost means, could not endure the cold, dry chniato of Canada. It is stated both in speeches, papers, and conversation over dinner-tables, that Manitoba is too cold for our people to go to. Now, I have taken some pains to ascertain for myself the real truth of this matter, and without troubling you with isothermal calculations, a great many of which are decimals which you would not remember if I were to quote them, nor would you thank me for reciting them, I may tell you generally this, that I don't believe in the invidious comparison made between opposite sides of the frontier that divides the Far West. I believe that a healthier country, if properly cultivated and occupied, not overcrowded with labour, I believe that a healthier country does not exist within the Dominion of the Crown ( the ^ I Imperial and Colovial Partnership in Emigration. 15 than Manitoba, with its nine millions of acres, a large portion of which is now lying idle, because no man will come and take jiosses- sion of it. The place is marvellously fertile, and, I believe, that mortality there is considerably less than in more southern lati- tudes. Little time is left me to say what I had intended regarding what may be called the antithosis of the present proposal. From the other end of the world— the very Antipodes— simultaneously with this movement in Canada, there comes a voice from Queens- land. Now Queensland, we shall perhaps be told, is as much too hot to go to, (Laughter.) It is not that the objectors care about the " sweat of a man's brow," but the deviation from the old system of keeping peopln here for the rush of labour. There is in this town at the present moment the chief minister of Queensland, and I regret he is prevented by illness from being here to-night ; but I know that an independent friend of his is in the room, who will correct me if I state anything inaccurately, or overstate anything about his Colony, and who, without being responsible ofHcially, is responsible as a gentleman of largo possessions there. Mr. Archer will, I beheve, upon an early day have an opportunity of placing in detail before you the resources and advantages of the great and growing country which stretches from the boundary of New South Wales to the Gulf of Carpentaria — a region vast enough to furnish healthful homesteads for all our over-crowded people who desire them, and rich enough in pasture and iu tillage to supply them with all the comforts and necessaries of life. From all I have lately learned I have reason to believe that, notwithstanding what has been said of Australia being indifferent to emigration, Queens- land, incited in some measure by the same motives as Canada, would very probably act in a similar manner, because she, too, desires to develop her internal resources by means of railways, constructed on the homestead principle. Queensland is so extensive, and is comprised within so many varying degrees of latitude, that while portions of it abound in tropical produce, other provinces lying in the temperate zone have a climate resembling that of Madeira, and, like that well-known paradise of invalids, begins to plant vineyards and work the wine- press, as well as cultivate every species of food that is fit for man. On the sea-coast the sugar-cane and the cotton plant thrive abundantly ; while on the table-lands of the interior, two thousand feet above the sea, tliere are millions of fertile acres which have nevei' known any occupantK but sheep and cattle ; and I am not without warrant in saying that for purposes of settlement to- morrow mauv hundred thousand acres would be available on 16 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. tei-ms even easier than those we have been considering else- where. Westward of the sea-coast district of Moreton hcs the salubrious and fertile upland of Darling Downs, as large as Yorkshii-e, or as Mayo or Sligo, Donegal and lioscommon to.u;ether, portions of which have already become the healthful abode of industrious settlers. I'very cereal crop and garden vegetable with which we are familiar thrives in that hospitable soil, and side by side with them the vine and Indian corn come to maturity. The chief town Toowoomba, has its schools and churches, Anglican, Catbolic, and Presbyterian, court-house and banks, public library and club- house, hospital and railway stition, Avatcr works and gasworks, flour mills and saw mills, and factories for soap and tobacco. Fruits and flowers, native and exotic, brighten its environs on every side, and the traces of poverty and destitution are nowhere to be seen. Of the 8,891,200 acres, which constitute the district, not thirteen thousand were under tillage last year ; the annual return of stock being 7,831 horses, 24,001 cattle, 801,019 sheep, yet in the whole district there are said to be less than 15,000 inhabitants, and that more than three millions and a half of acres are still tenanted only by sheep. Still further west in the same latitude the railway from Brisbane to Roma is opening out the undulating prairies of Maranoa, now conditionally held under lease for pastoral purposes alone ; but the greater part of which is reported to be eminently "L for the production of corn and wine. Hero is room enough and to spare for all the agricultural emigrants likely to quit our shores during the lifetime of the present generation — a land of refuge and of promise for many a Scotch and English, as well as Irish farmer, "leart-sick of bad seasons, dull markets, and lieavy rates. To make further railways through its undeveloped provinces, Queensland, like Canada, requires workmen who will settle along the line, settlers willing to earn wages ir naking it. When you look at the map, and look at tlib apace that is still untilled, you will see at once that this would be only a beginning. If a man is able to remain at home, God bless him ! let him remain. (Laughter.) But if a man wants to bring up his children in a better condition than unfortunately he has been born to ; if he wishes to benefit himself and his kind, let him accept the offer if ho be a wise man — the ofl'er to go to any of the Colonies where there is a gracious and a ready welcome for him. I have only one word more to say, and tliat is with respect to New South Wales. You have heard that New South Wales is tired of emigration ; and I suppose— I don't know whether people fancy, or whetber their are on. ng olse- lubrious re, or as •tioiis of lustrioiis k'hicb we dde with lief town olio, and lid club- asworks, tobacco. on every ere to bo trict, not il return T, yet in abitants, are still ) latitude ululating lease for reported Hero is its likely eration — iiglish, as •kets, and developed who will king it. at is still cginning. ! let him :i children 3rn to ; if b the offer ies where only one th Wales, lion ; and fcher their ■I Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emifjration. 17 minds have been influenced at all by contiguity with Victoria— but they say she is inclined to shut the dooxa against new-comers because the labour market might be supposed to be injuriously depressed. I speak in the presence of the Lord Mayor and his brother, the member for Leicester, both of them identified by interest and feehng with that splendid Colony. But its Legislature, in point of fact, has never adopted that exclusive principle ; on the contray, only the other day it sent, as we are told, a message to this country that for this year they would limit their funds for assisting emigration to £40,000. Of course I should be delighted it it was more ; but I am very glad that it is so much. The Government of Sydney have said what many have said in this room and elsewhere, and in Parliament, but they think it would be a useful test of the fitness of individuals to emigrate that they should contribute substantially towards the object themselves. In consequence of that idea growing in the minds of the colonists, they now require that their £40,000 shall be laid out by a certain pro- portion being contributed by the emigrants themselves. (Hear, hear.) I have not a word to say against that, or any other rule being laid down by a Colonial Legislature which, in its wisdom, it may think suitable to its actual condition. (Hear, hear.) But where other Colonies desire to have agricultural settlers and are willing to hold out the inducement of land on easy terms, if emigrant families arc not able to provide the whole cost of transit and settlement, let the amount be advanced by the Imperial Treasury, the Colonial Government recognising the claim for eventual repayment, I maintain that it is the best spent money that can be laid out by the State. I say that, having regard to the present condition of multitudes of poor or struggling people. I have not the least hesitation in saying I would go to my own constituents :md say, Authorise me to vote whatever funds may be necessary to try this great practical experiment in bettering the general condition of the United Kingdom, and thereby consolidating the Empire. (Cheers.) B 18 Imperial and Colonial PartncrHliip in Emicfrniion. APPENDIX. COPY or A DESPATCH FROM THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL OF CANADA. Forwardiny a Report of a Committee of the Privy Council on a Proposal for the Onjanisation of an Irish Immigration to Manitoba aid the North- West. Governor- General the Marquis of LonxE, K.T., G.C.M.G., to the Right Hon. the Earl oi- Kimbp:rley. (Received November ?J3, 18'-fO.) Government House, Ottawa, November 9, 1880. My Lord, I have the honour to transmit lierewith for your Lordship's informa- tion, a copy of a report of a Committee of the Privy Council adopting a memorandum prepared by the Minister of Agriculture containing a proposal for the organisation of an Irish immigration to ^lanitoba and the North-West. I have, &c. The Right Hon. the Earl of ffimberley, ( Signed) Lorne. kc. itc. &c. Colonial Office. Enclosure. Copy of a Report of a Cummitteo of the Honourable the Privy (Jouncil for Canada, approved by His Excellency the Governor-General, on tho 5th November, ISHO. On the recommendation of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, the Committee advise that the accompanying memorandum bo adopted as (I proposal for the organisation of an Irish immigration to ]\ranitoba and the North-West, and that the same should bo communicated to the Right Plonourable the Secretary of State for the Colonics by your Excellency and throngh the High Commissioner for Canada in England, should your Excellency see no objection to that course. Certilied, J. O. Cote Clerk, Privy Council, Canada. Memorandujf, On the suggestion made to him by tho High Commissioner of Canada in England, Sir A. T. Gait, G.C.M.G., the undersigned has the honour to propose the following as a basis of joint action in promoting Irish immigra- tion, should the Imperial Government entertain the project. The Canadian Government, syrapatbising with their fellow subjects of Ireland in their distressed circumstances, would cheerfully co-operate in a well-considered measure of relief by means of a systematic immigration from Ireland. If such a pystem of Irish immigration were established it is evidently a condition pvcPcedent to obtaining the cordial co=oporiitioa of Canada, that tho immigrants should not become a burden upon the existing population. i on. I ENEKAL t Projiosnf 'It aid the the Right ViO.) S), 1880. 8 inforraa- adopting a itaining a ba and the c. LoilNE. Council lor ral, on tho Lgriculture, adopted as nitoba and > the Right 3llency and lould your Canada. Canada in honour to 1 immigra- subjects of perate in a mmigration )hslied it is poratioa of upon the Tmpcri'il (vul Colonial Partnership in Em'ujrdtion. 11) In the case of single men and women no serious diHiculty would arise, 119 employment can readily be found. But in the present distressed circumstances of Ireland, it is manifest that it is only by the removal of entire families that any sensible relief would be experienced from the pressure of a redundant population. Provision would have, therefore, to bo made, not only for the transport of tho families to their place of settlement, but also for their maintenance imtil a crop can be had from the land. In tlie older Provinces of the Dominion where tho laud is all heavily timbered, the dilliculty of managing a large immigration would be very "reat. But in the vast fertile plains of the North-West the question becomes comparatively easy of solution. By very simple pre-arraugement any required number of farm lots could bo prepared for occupation, in the season preceding tho arrival of the ImmigrHuts, a small dwelling erected, a certain extent of the prairie land broken up and prepared for seed, and in the case of late arrival, actually sown, so as to ensure a crop the same season that the immigrants were placed in possession. This work could be done by contract under proper supervision, and would give employment on arrival to tlie new immigrant while his crop was growing, thereby greatly redunng the cost of the undertaking, and really limiting it ultimately to little moro than the cost of his transport, as the repayment of advances by the earlier settlers would soon be sulficient to meet the annu-il outlay for preparing new lands. The cost of removing an immigrant family consisting of parents and three children from the port of embarkation to Winnipeg may nosv be taken at about i 10, subject to a certain increase for their transport thence to their farm lot. The dwelling and eight acres of land prepared Ur crop with seed may be estimated at from ^35 to .£40. Some provision for the family might be required on arrival, but the wages of the man ought to suffice for tlie support of his family till his crop is harvested, after which the immigrant may be regarded as self-supporting. The Canadian Government provides each settler with a '• free grant " of 1(50 acres, subject only to a patent fee of i'2. The settler can also secure the pre-emption of 100 acres adjoining at the current price and usual conditions. I'or the reimbursement of the outlay for transport and for establishing the immigrant upon his farm, it is suggested that the Canadian Govern- ment would provide that the total cost, as certilied to their agarit, and acknowledged by the settler, should form a first charge on t.ie Liiui, payable by certain annual instalments with interest. To obviate the misconstruction to which Her Majesty's Government niight be exposed in favouring any Canadian system of immigration, two points seem to be important : — 1. Instead of direct action by Her Majesty's Government, it is suggested that the whole movement should be conducted under the auspices of n * Comraissiou or of a National I'lmigration Association, with an a(!:'quaU> organisation, both at home and in Canada, and that tho pecuniary aid should be given by the Imperial '^•-"ernment in tho form of advances to 20 Iiiiperi(d and Cuhmld Partnership in Knwjrathni. such Association or Commission, at a low rate of interest, secured upon the settlerH' land. 2. All immigration should bo voluntary, and assistance should be equally granted to all who come under the conditions laid down. Were such a Commission or such an Association established, certain tracts of land would be placed at th-'ir disposal for settlement, which, under their oflicers, v ould be prepared for the incoming families. The Association or Commission would also charge itself with the dissemination of information at home, and Avith the selection ,ind shipment of the immigrants, while the Canadian Government would make them participant of any reduction on passages obtained in favour of immigrants, and cause them to be cared for on arrival and forwarded at the expense of the Commission or of the Ascociation to Winnipeg, where they would be met by the Government Land Guides, and sliown by them their respective lots ; after which proceedings the oflicers of the Commission or of the Association would take them in charge and see them installed on their land, which would have been prepared for occupation during the previous season. The whole respectfully submitted. (Signed) J. H. Pope, J )epartment of Agriculture, Minister of Agriculture. Ottawa, October 30, 1880. IMPERIAL AND COLONIAL PARTNERSHIP IN EMIGRATION. To THii: Editor ov " Thk Colonies and India." Siu, — In closing the adjourned discussion on Mr. Torrens's address, the Earl of Dunraven, in cementing on some suggestions I had made on the subject of a plan for issuing third-class tickets to emigrants at one uniform price for all the Colonies, made the following remarks : — " I\lr. Young has suggested that the emigrant should pay £2 towards the expense of carrying him to any Colony to which he may wish to go, and that the balance should be equally divided between the mother-country and the Colony. The chief difficulty T see in that would be that it would manifestly be to tlie advantage of the department dealing with this matter to send the emigrant to the nearest Colony, in order as far as possible to diminish the expense." I am most anxious that it should be clearh' understood that my plan involves no such difficiilty as his Lordship suggests. The arrangements for receiving emigrants would be made between all the great self-governing Colonies and the Mother-country on a cbar and distinct basis, as to the equitable contribution they would pay towards the passage of each emigrant they respectively received. There would be no Imperial Government machinery at work capable of inducing the emigrant to go to one pait of the Empire rather than to another. Having been previously properly instructed, and consequently perfectly acquainted with the different advan- t.igftH .appertaining to each and all of tlie Colonies, he would make liis choice at his own free will as to the one to which he elected to proceed, as affording him the greatest inducements for success. He would go to the ion. Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 21 d upon the be equally led, certain mt, which, ilies. The semination ent of the participant , and cause ase of tlie uUl be met active lots ; Association and, which isou. proper department under such a sjstem, and demand his ticket, on the payment of his X'-i, either for Canada, for the Cape, for Australia or New Zealand. lie would bo no more influenced in his choice than the l^assenger, who, asking for a ticket for Dover at the Charin-,' Cross Station, could bo persuaded by the ticket clerk that it was far better for him to go to Margate or Ramsgate instead. There would of course bo many details to fill up in such a comprehensive system, as I propose ; but they would oiVor no insuperable difficulty of Br)lution if the plan was accepted in a bold and broad and statesmanlike spirit. Sometimes there would be a greater or a loss demand for emigrants in Canada, or at the Cape, or in Australia ; but this would all be adjusted to meet the requirements of the various Colonies without friction or jealousy, if once undertaken in a wise and generous way all round. Such, sir, is my idea of the true and right principle of conducting a system of National Emigration. I am, &c., 5, Queensberry Tlace, S.W. FllEDElilCK YOUNG. JpHI 11, 1881. iRATION. ddress, the ide on the ne uniform owards the to no, and juntry and at it would ;his matter possible to at my plan •angements 'governing !, as to the h emigrant overnment me pflit of r properly 3nt advan- niakft liis proceed, as go to the Discussion. Sir Alexander T. Galt, G.C.M.G. : My Lord, my Lord Mayor, Ladies and Gentlemen,— I am Bure that we all owe, especially those who are directly connected with the Colonies, a deep debt of gratitude to the gentleman who has just completed a most compre- hensive address on that question which is so interesting to us. We are, perhaps, most of us, connected with the Colonies, and are more directly associated with this question than the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland ; but I think the argument which has been addressed to us to-night shows that it is one of those questions in which our interests are common ; and that nothing can be for the benefit of the remote sections of the Empire that will not reflect upon the industry and good of England herself. (Hear, hear.) I am quite sure that those who listened to Mr. Torrens's description of the state of the population of Ireland must have seen that no legislation could reach the evils that are grinding down the popu- lation of that country if it did not aid in transferring them to another and happier field for their industry. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Torrens has alluded in very kind terms to the disposition of the Dominion of Canada to assist in relieving the distress of Ireland.. I am quite sure that anything that Canada has proposed or may do in reference to that subject will be done with equal zeal — with an equal desire to serve England — by every one of the other Colonies. (I'' ir, hear.) It is not because Canada may happen to be the largest and the most populous of the dependencies of the Dominion of the Empire that she takes the lead in this matter. It is perhaps .).) Impciial ( ml Colonial PartncrHliip in Emiijration. 1)ccHii80 Hho fcelfi from her proximity to this country, fiom tl lur.s'cncsa ol* her population, thiit it is fi-oni her tlic first in\ itiit ion aiionlil pcrhi ith hor th III como ; thiit it , ^ rohef can bo most easily applioil to the poor of tiiin country. J5ut I um .sure that in that effort to rolievo the clistrcsH which exists here among the poorer classeH, to help tlicm from the depths of miaory ami distress in which they must for over remain here, I am sure that every one of the Colonies would act together with this country, (tfoar, hear.) ]\lr. Torrens has done no more than justice to the Government of Camida in stating that they have madvT the first proposals to the Government of this country for affording relief to the Irish distress by appropriating the immense donuiin which has lately come into the Dominion of Canada, and converting it into farms for people who cannot firul the means of employment Jiere. I am not iit liberty to state the progress which has taken place in reference to the offer that has been made. It is still — to si)eak with a certain amount of reserve — in the hands of Her Majesty '.> Government. It is still under consideration, whether, in connection with the amelioration of the evils of Ireland, emigra- tion may not be found to be one available resource. (Hoar, hear.) I would not desire to detain you on the subject of the proposals that have been made by Canada after the al>le and kind way in which Mr. Torrens has referred to them, and the assurance that he has given, that his efforts and those of other able men will be directed to press upon the attention of the Government and Par- liament here and upon the people of this country, the desirability of acting in haunony with Canada in this matter. But there are cue or two points that I would like to remark upon. One that struck me as being particularly important was the reference that Mr. Torrens made to the effect that tJie emigration of the kind required for the relief of distress of the poorer parts of Ireland and other portions of the United Kingdom, that that rehef should take the form of the removal of families and no^ om; um nhle-bodied men. (Hear, hear.) As far ns able-bodied nej) oud v men are concerned, they require no assistance from the uovernment of this country or from anyone else. (Hear, hear.) Their labour is always available in any of the Colonies. It is certainly so in Canada. But it is not fair to this country that they should take the able-bodied from their duties here in the support of their aged parei:.:;,! ->nd young children. It is not fair that you should take them awa} and free them from their responsibihties towards those he.plc •• •• ones who uould have to live upon the industry uf those they have left behind. (Hear, hear.) Therefore the Canadian I Km. Imperial and ( 'ohmial Purtmnlup in Km'ujration, 2!J fiom tho iii\ itiition her that try. J Jilt ich exists dopths of icrc, I am with tliis oro tlian tiicy have )iiiitry for immense miln, and means of esa which do. It is hands of wlicthcr, I, cmigni- nr, liear.) pi'Dposals id way in ;g that ho m will be and Par- 'sirabilitj' there are One that ence that the kind jland and ould take ;le-bodied men ar^ nt of this labour is ily so in ould take lieir aged 3uld take rds those (jf those Canadian I Government have rcco.'^niscd that fact, and in the paper which lias been hiitl on the table of the lI(»iiHe.4 of Parliament to-day it will be found that they do not ask the (rovenmient of this country to entertain any proposal for aiding emi.iifration for single men and women ; they ari> willing to take tho question up as one of removal of the entire family. That necessarily involves a little expense and greater supervision, both on tliis and on tho otiier side, in reference to their settlement. It would not do for mo to occupy you by dis- cussing tho details of tlio plan, which is only, of course, blocked out in the paper which Mr. Torrens lias referred to. The details of such a schomo are subjects for future consideration. It certainly would not do to allow anyone to bn under the impression that it was wished to force thera out of this land. It is not a punishment that is going to bo inflicted upon the poor of tliis country ; it is an advantage we desire to give them— (hoar, hoar) — if they are willing to avail themselves of it. If, after it has been explained to them, they are dissuaded from any cause from embracing it, then thoy will remain here to take their fortune or fate, whatever it maybe. But nothing is more certain than that, whatever may be the condition of the poor families who may emigrate, their children will have a future before tiiom of a brighter kind ; while, if they roma,in here, the outlook is poor indeed. (Hoar, hear.) I feel, as representing Canada, that we aro greatly indebted to the geatleman who has addressed us to-night ; that it is by the efforts of himself and those who liavo for many years given their best attention to this subject that not only a public service is done to this country, but a very great public service to us. (Hoar, hoar.) I will only say that in any scheme which the Government of Phigland may approve of I fool perfectly certain that the Government and the people of Canada will be prepared to do their part. It is a sort of general co-operative oontributive scheme of emigration that we intend. It is not fair to Canada that she should take all the burden upon he»'gelf; and it is not fair to this country that Canada, should have all the advantages of this transfer of the labour she requires. It is by ascertaining how far each is interested in the result, to weigh tho advantages that have to be conferred upon them, that in that way we may arrive at a fair and liberal scheme by which the misery of parts of this country may be in many respects removed. Now, I have said so much in reference to w liat I may call Imperial emigration from Ireland of those who are of themselves unable to go oub. But there are many other parts of the United Kingdom which r.re quite as necessitous, where the people were quite as anxious to gut away as those of the distressed districts of Ireland. The necessities of Ireland at this 24 r^nperkl and Colonial PartnaMp in En^gration. hoI.I from Scotland or K <1 B, f "^ '"'' ' "^ '™"''' "'"'- eonconied, I do not sL t W n , "' "" '^°'™'^« ="■» subjects c^nfluo ouoiLn """ * "'"' ^'''''"' '" <«"■ f^"™- do not desire to t™,f t! /•""' f"""' ''"='^'- (^^'••'"■' ''»'•■) Wo it would b d» "fj; panada any particular cla.» of settlers: »ixin, tao. tl,ai;r ."S; o^ulo^t^t^tel^r o" ^tf " "f evds winch have made Ireland what it is Z-u 1 1 n "^ bnnging the diiierent races together that von ; n -^ ^ future nrosroritv Tl,„,.„f„ ri , ^ ' ™^ """"'■■e "'« "■ been piU ed bv-Mr T„ ' 1^?° """ ""= "f"'^ ^^''i'^l' ''avc- induce thrao"™ „t to t°?-: I'- '""""'' '^ ''^"°"' ''■''' '•''" as regards feSX e . fti tllrf ""' " r^^' "7 ""■^' general I do hone tl„f h "'."'f*''^'y '' mw be made more bouest labourin ' nl wLh:", "t" f^ ""'' '""'' »»'' ""at the who has no fu tare befo: ' me'^J^f "'' "i"'"'""^' "'^ «»«»"' distress at times wh^n o LtvmenM ' ^n ™™"^ ™" meut and hope abroad, ud I tru! LT"'™', "'" "j"' '™°"™8" devised that these mei mv b! ,1 ■ f ,' "? "=''™' ^'" ""^ assistance of this crn'rr»,n f ^i ° !""'' "'"''^''"ves of the Let tl.em choos for Zill , " "f"^'""™ "' '"» Colonies, themselves-of the best oZ; , -i r" '"^ ^"" «°' '"=' "'«» "™i' themselves a f^ ture 1 cHr I ^' 7 """ S«'' ""d 'l">s secure for them in i:^^^' X^':! "'"' '"" "^^ "^"' »' '» made one rcmak-. thatlelTa ^m W-^r' ■T"''".""""'™^ Austraha was always a dcLT 'n totuX ^re f '™"' to bo a i)opular anrl nil i,M..^ i ^^^ i^ wiui. I Jiavc kuowmt responsil G„entrZa 'i'^'r''""' »"•' ''^»''"S> - "'e aand in spend „g the mo, etfH ' ;""' *''^ ""'-"'^ '" "» ™>^- the great .Juestio? t 'Z^b » 'r^J ^ '" '^-'-S-ig^nts, and tliose only, that we actually wait ■ V T" "'°"-" ''"'l'""' eight years that I have been in A^rali. l"'" """',= "'' ""''■''- class that has always beenTn denv , 7" ^^^ ''"" ■"" ™<= servants. For classes such .7 ' t "'"'' °^ '<'»»'° ''™>^'sti<= other description 0^0^ rs iXd'arcut™'^',""'' '"^'■'■ ^«oh in demand at one time and ^:^::^^2Z', (i Uioii. ce them to ^oukl with- )loiiies are )ur fellow- hear.) We )f settlers : I ; it is by f the imst It is by ^ure tlieiv hicli have , and v/ill Je at first itle more '■ that the Scotland, iulty and courage- will be 3 of the !!?olouies. 3m avail icure for 1 out to , Ladies evening on, and its pre- of the t, as I South, lown it as the s com- jrants,. >cople,, ;hirty- it one nestic every very fcher ; Is Impeiial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 25 and therefore it has been one of the duties of the Australian Colonies to pay the greatest possible attention to the (question of emigration. Nor have they been illiberal in the matter. Mr. Torrens spoke about asking the Home Government to vote £100,000 on emigration. Why, I have voted for that sum many times in South Austraha with the greatest possible pleasure ; but it was imde- certain restrictions, and they were that the nationality of Great Britain should be kept in view. One of the clauses of the old Emigration Act provided this ; and perhaps gentlemen present are not aware that, according to the last census of Great Britain, out of every 100 emigrants that should be sent from Great Britain, 72i per cent, were from England, 17^ per cent, from Ireland, and 10 per cent, from Scotland. Keep that steadfastly in view, as New South Wales has done in its recent vote of £45,000 for assisted emigration. I say keep that steadfastly in view, and I don't think you will find Australia for very long opposed, as some portions of it now are, to Emigration. Then the Colony I represent meets this case in a liberal spirit too. We give to every man under forty-five years of age of sound healthy on his producing a medical certificate and paying his own passage, we give him £20's worth of land the moment he puts his foot in the Colony. Is not that an inducement ? We want people of intelligence and industry, who will push forward the Colony as it wishes to be pushed forward. I only wish to speak on the general point of the partnership between the Imperial and Colonial Government in emigration. I do not want to say that the Colony I represent is a better field for emigration than Manitoba. I do not wish to narrow the question down to one as between Canada and England. But ask the Colonies, I am not in a posi- tion to speak as to what their view is on this partnership in emigration ; they would probably say, we will have no partnership in directing the emigration ; when we want emigration we will pay for it, and will have those people exactly fitted for our wants. If any of you want to come here and pay your own passage, we will give you more than the value of your passage money available imme- diately in the purchase of land, or, if you choose to go into other engagements, we will give you the money for it after two years' resi- dence. Nothing is more liberal that I know of than this law which s now exists in South Australia. I am sorry the question seems to be wather narrowed into that of the west of Ireland and the fertile district o^Mauitoba. It seems tome that the matter is not being kept to the qii^stion of Imperial and Colonial partnership, and I wish to say tha* if the Government of South Australia was asked they would \ •2(> I>m'cnal ,.„,, c,.,..,!,„ l,„,„„,,,,^, ,, ,,,„.^,.^^.^^^_ I when wo want thei^ .m " ' f„ .^ f "'=™"'' "" ™" S<=' ""=» w<' i-«,„i.-o them irl ,1 r "'";"• 'V'" '»"■'»'"""■ """■k'^t »« .heWcstofIrra„at;.U,o?rr'l''n ",' '"'""»" ""^ P«»P>o from h»bl.v not ha™ be" u » i o "Ibtf V ''"""°'"-'' ' ^''""''1 l'™' mylife; but it hZT'Vf "'''''''' ^'"^ " Manitoba in «ay that tt; «0 olo twch .''""''r" "' P"'''»«-1"P. I .shclc, httio about the Riibiarf tl„t i, „ i ■' " "™''' but I Icnow a tlith h t "b ' n a tr "'' '," '"•^' "'"' ''° i-'C'.-omely sorry " ""J' "I'l^eci-We extent we are mo.t in want oT ZIJ] ™"'- ■■'«"«""•"•!«'» «■« what Iclonotthiukt efo°nb?r T7'°"' '''^'™'>' ^ f««e «"" .lominions,bothhd It. ^r ,"""•: '""' "' ^or Majesty's tahil.tyfo;farme:,t' t2V tris" ::/r ^™^''f f^'" without mcnt.,:.rf, r:;; "- "'f-' «'■ Damng Downs", ieetly good for Fu™!' ,« , , '™' '"'""■" *'"= "'»•■"« '« Per- from Hor Majestys Gov r, Lt "nn """' °''""'^' ^ '"^•■'''"' '«'" and that is a very sniall 1 "n ?, "1""™ »"le''-(laughter)_ times that amouuMrSrstrtTr """ ''''" ™' '™'- acres is neither here no,' f" '~ > ' "'" 'J'""''"" »' ^O.^O Mcllwraithst'rtln ho ;:"•., T'" ' ''"™ '» '^P'"- -^J'- bed, but hones t°„ at , L . '"' '"!" ' '"= ''"^ ™' ^^t left hi, ' has three dJcto ° attem , ' ""' "'"""^ ' "'"""'' ^^"" 1 »ay l,*" doubtful. '° "l'°" '"■»■ l'«''ai« that may be rati, aty"' / ion. Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. '11 loy wonid 1 get tlioiu market as Avitli the ioplo from ould i)ro- nitoba in I .slioukl is a very 3ar voted am uot . know a Litliorised lely sorry irt iu tho personal ens had 3gard to ch have )nld not y a very nigrants wanted e extent re what lie that 'ajesty's adap- liave irkablv Downs, is per- sottled If rent iter) — t four ^0,000 is Mr. eft hi,'.- ' Mr. A. McArthur, M.P. : My Lord, my Lord Mayor, Ladies and Gentlemen,— I have in the first place to express my great regret that the Agent-General for New South Wales is prevented from being with us this evening. In his absence, perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words on behalf of New South Wales. I am sure we are all much indebted to Mr. Torrens for the very able address he has given us ; but, like my friend Sir Arthur Blyth, I confess I was rather disappointed at first, and if I had not known Mr. Torrens was above anything of that kind, I should have thought my friend on my right, Sir Alexander Gait, and Mr. Torrens were in league to populate Manitoba. Mr. Torrens further on gave us some reference to Queensland, and some slight reference to South Australia and New South Wales. There is one point Mr. Torrens glanced at ; I suppose he did not like to enlarge upon it, and I don't know that it is wise to say much about it cither, but I have always thought it strange, and have always been astonished, that British Governments sit quietly and see the enormous stream of emigrants going out to the United States with- out, as far as I can judge, endeavouring to direct that stream to our own Colonies. (Hear, hear.) Now, like Mr. Torrens, I have no unfriendly feeling towards the United States ; on the contrary, I believe a great majority of our countrymen, and especially the Lish who go there, do well, and better their circumstances. But 1 had once the pleasure of visiting the United States, and I endeavoured to obtain all the information I could. When conversing with native Americans I found a most friendly disposition towards this country ; but Irish Americans almost invariably expressed the bitterest feelings towards Great Britain. In the Colonies, however, this is not the case ; loyalty to the British Crown is a prominent characteristic of the people. Therefore I have always been sur- prised that our Government don't take some interest in directing the stream of emigrants to our own Colonies. I recollect returning from Australia just after the Irish famine, and when I was informed that this coimtry had voted some six or seven millions sterling for tho relief of the distress in Ireland, I said. What a terrible mis- take ; you have degraded and pauperised the people, and have left them worse than you found them ; whereas if you had spent half the money iu endeavouring to send them to our Colonies, you would have placed them in a position to benefit themselves, and you would have benefited the Empire at large. (Hear, hear.) Now, my lord, v/hcn the cotton famine existed in Lancashire, we in New South Wales, and all the Colonies, contributed largely to the relief of the districts there. I wanted the money given in New South 28 Imperial and Colonial PartnersMp in Emir/ration. Wales to be devoted to emigration, but we in our generosity gave it to the general fund for the relief of the distress. I beheve still that a great many of those who were assisted would have benefited themselves and the Colonics if they had been sent out instead of being supper! d at home ; but 1 entirely ami heartily endorse the sentiment expressed by Sir Arthur Blyth. We in the Colonies do not want the sweepings of this country, or of Scotland, or Ireland ; we want domestic servants and families Avho will spring up and become useful in the Colonies, and we want, if we can get them, persons Avho can bring some little capital with them. (Hear, hear.) Well, I don't suppose in this country that there is any great feehng of the necessity for emigration at present, and the objections referred to by Sir Arthur Blyth hold good. Mr. Samuel, the A.gent-General of Now South Wales, a few days ago read me the instructions he had received, and they were as stated— that we don't think anything of race or creed, but what we want is a fair proportion of emigrants from the three countries ; we think that would be the best thing for the Colonies, and we are not prepared to take an indiscriminate number of persons, who may or may not be suitable, from any part of the kingdom. I may also say that for many years New Soutli Wales, like the other Colonies, has offered free grants of laud as Canada now does ; but as a friend of mine said to me when Mr. Torrens had nearly finished, " But he would have done much better if he had been in the Colonies." Now, I think if he had been in the AuslraUan Colonies he would have given us a little more credit with regard to our climate. I don't Avant to say a word against Canada, but they have intense cold in winter, while we in Austraha have perpetual summer and as fine a climate as any in the world ; we are, however, at a great distance, and that is the main objection urged by emigrants • whereas Canada is comparatively near, and the expense of getting to it is very little. But those who go, I am certain, will not find it a better Colony than any of the Australian or New Zealand Colonies. A few years ago, to which reference has been made by :\Ir. Torrens, when there was great distress in this country, I made a proposal that the British Government should pay a third of the passage money, the emigrant another third, and the Colony to which he went should pay the balance ; and I beheve this would be a very fair distribution. (Hear, hear.) I think it would be an advantage that the emigrant should pay sometJiing ; if he has no money to pay, lot it bo advaneod, tmd let him repay it afterwards ; and I believe it would be an advantage for the emigrant to feel he has something to pay— it would make him a more useful man. I tloii. i-osity gave >elicve still e benefited instead of indorse the Colonies do )r Ireland ; 3g up and get them, ear, hear.) cat feeling objections irauel, the iad me the — that we it is a fair think that t prepared r may not 3 say that Louies, has I friend of "But ho Colonies." i he would limate. I ie intense mmer and it a great migrants ; of getting Qot find it ' Zealand I made by y, I made rd of tho Uolony to his would luld be an he has no terwards ; io feel he [ man. I Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 29 am sure we are much indebted to Mr. Torrena for the interest he has taken in this subject. I sincerly hope that tho country will take the same interest, and that Mr. Torrens's efforts will be crowned with success. (Cheers.) Captain Colomb : There are just one or two practical remarks I should like to contribute to the discussion. In the first place, I should wish to say that I have travelled in twenty-four hours from the south-west of Ireland in order to hear the address. To learn what I have from the address, and to hear the discussion which has followed, I would travel for double the time willingly. (Hear, hear.) Well, the state of Ireland has largely entered into the question of assisted emigration— or, rather, such a scheme of trans- plantation as wculd meet the wants of the Colonies and the wants of the mother-country. 1 think there has been some misapprehen- sion, which will be properly cleared up by the lecturer. I did not gather the impression from the address which Sir Arthur Blyth seems to have done. I understood it to bo the first principle of Mr. Torrens's address not to lay down a hard and fast Hnc, but as a proposition to co-operate with one another in any way that was possible. He wishes the mother-country not to hold back upon the question of profits, but to address herself to this large question of her necessities by affording all facilities for meeting Colonial wants. (Hear, hear.) But my object in rising is only to give the practical experience derived from a part of Ireland which I may say is perfectly quiet, though in a proscribed county, and it is in a scheduled union, and one in which our chairman here to-night is a brother-ratepayer. He owns the most beautiful island within the union of which I am going to speak. Now, I would desire to put before this mooting and before the members of both Houses of Parliament, both present and absent, what the law at this moment is with regard to emigration, to which I attach tho greatest im- portance, for I feel that a great many in this room will be surprised after hearing the case as it stands. The first Act of Parliament which dealt with the question of emigration in Ireland is dated 1837 or 1838. That gives the ratepayers in an electoral district (if they sec fit and two-thirds agree) power to hold a meeting, and, if they like, to tax themselves ; and, subject to the approval of Commissioners and divers other persons, they may tax the district to provide for the expenses of emigration for such persons as wish to emigrate. Further, it was specially provided in that Act that emigration was only to bo to the British Colonies. Well, that did not work. In 1848 the Emigration Act which is embraced in the Poor Law Act was modified, and it threw upon the Boards of Guardians 30 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Knii(jrati(»i. what was formerly on the electoral district, still, however, limiting emigration to British Colonies. Then came the famine ; and I can best describe the position of that district during the famine in the words of one who had practical experience of it ; and as to his nationality I will leave you to guess it : " One half of the people died and the other half of the people went to America, and two-thirds went into the workhouse." (Laughter.) Then came the pressure of Ireland'3 distress, over-crowding, caught by famine ; and why was it ? Because we had steadfastly shut our eyes to the impossibility of doing what our chairman here, in one of his letters t,o the public journals, described in these words, " You cannot put a quart into a pint pot ;'' eight millions of people had been trying to live on what was only sufficient for three. You had too many people, but you had nothing to give them as a means of escape : wo had been trying to do it, and the result was that thousands of men, women, and children perished in the attempt. Then came the Emigration Act, 1847, which provided that any holder of land of not less than five acres who chose to surrender his land might bo assisted to emigrate if the landlord contributed two-thirds of the expense ; the Board of Guardians, of course, contributing the other third. That became a dead letter. Two years after we had that Act, which still remains on our Statute Book, and which is a disgrace to the Imperial Legislature, and I say this deliberately in the presence of members of both Houses of Parliament. And I will prove it. That Act for the first time gives the guardiuns power to assist " out of the rates " persons to emigrate to foreign countries instead of only to British Colonies. Thus I am taxed to send my fellow- subjects of the Queen to a land in which tlieir allegiance is lost, and where they go to add to the resources of ii. foreign country — America. It is a small union ; the valuation of it is £20,000 a-year, the population being about the same in numbers ; wliile, as for the land to be taxed, it is nearly all rock. (Laughter.) I think I^iord Dunraven will bear me out iu that, for he o^nis some of it> (Renewed laughter.) Now what has been the result ? The result of that Act has been this. I will give you the exact figures, for it is better to be exact in these matters. I will not take up your time with figures ; but you have actually done this, you have taxed me, you have spent my money, and you compelled me to pay it, to send men to America — (hear, hear) — and what to do ? Why,, to send back sedition. (Hear, hear.) That in what you do, and that is what has happened. The whole of that portion of the Duchess of Marl- borough's fund allocated for pur])oscs of emigration — some t'70n — on. however, ! f amino ; .uring the Df it ; and alf of the }i'ica, and came the famine ; /ea to the lis letters biinot put 3n trying 00 many f escape ; isands of len came r of land nd might thirds of iting the sr we had liich is a liber ately nt. And guardians foreign 1 taxed to ich tlieir roes of ii. uation of same in learlv all me out r.) Now )een this, be exact figures ; you have I men to ind back t is what of Marl- e £700 — Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emiriration. 31 was used by the various unions to send people to America to become citizens of a foreign State. We in our union got Jb'lOO. Naturally I proposed to send those who wished to emigrate to our own Colonies only ; but Irishmen say, •' Bedad, wo don't know where they are or how to get there." Two hundred applicants wo turned aAvay of those who wislied to emigrate. We could not send them for want of funds. Those we did send we sent to the States, and they are lost to our Empire, being transferred to a foreign State instead of " transplanted" to our own lands — to Canada and Australia. I ask if this is to continue, if we are to be for ever hlind to our real Imperial wants by neglecting the question brought bcr)re us to-night. (Cheers.) Mr. Hepplk Hall : At this late hour of the evening I do not know that I am warranted in expecting the audience to listen to me. But with all deference to our lecturer, and without prejudice to any speaker in this assembly, I think wo are travelling rather wide of our mark. It seems to me that the great question of national emigration ought to be discussed in a different spirit from that in which it has been discussed to-night. It seems to me that our Colonial gatherings are held rather for the purpose of giving an opportunity to Agents-General of particular Colonies to vent their ])articular grievances. (No, no.) I am not a representative of any Colony, but I almost wish sometimes for the sake of the Colonies that I was. I have been mixed up with emigration since I was a youth, and I have arrived at this conclusion, that from a sincere patriotic desire to promote emigration you are gradually overdoing it. There are two points in Mr. Torrens's address on which I should like to say a word. It seems to me that the gist of his remarks turns largely on two points: one selection, the other assistance. 'I.'hose are the points wo have to deal with ; and not whether wo send the emigrant to Canada or Australia, because the one is cold and the other hot — (laughter) — but simply because we have a large surplus population growing up around us always ; it never can he kept under, and it is always on the increase, and, therefore, a broad cmiiprcheusive scheme of national emigration s everyday growing more imperative. The question of selection is perhaps the most important. No one knows better than Sir Alexander Gait about emigration, and he and Sir Arthur Blyth have told us that the one Avants domestic servants and the other agricultural labourers, Docs that not give us the key to the whole question after all — namely, that it is a question of selection, and that the Colonies wa.ut people specially adapted to their special needs ? Canada v,iints tJK' farmer for her corn-fields in Manitoba ; and as regards I 32 Imi)cnal and Culonhd Partncrsldp in Emigration. Australasia autl all that grand group of Colonies in the South Pacific, they have their special needs, which are largely agricultural, and, therefore, it makes the question one of selection. Wo have been sending for a long time round posts to fill square holes in respect to emigration. I have been to both sides of the world on emigrant vessels, and I have studied the wants of emigrants for thirty years ; and I speak from facts when I say that selection is the important element in emigration. With regard to the other point—assistance — speaking for myself, my desire is to do the emigrant all the good I possibly can. I do think when wo look at this question of assistance, that we are treading upon very delicate ground indeed. The great value of all emigration is, that it should be perfectly voluntary ; and I look with some distrust, I confess, on State interference — although I am not here as a pessimist of any State scheme of emigration — upon any organised scheme of Govern- ment control in regard to emigration ; for this reason, that beUeving, as I do, that selection is the chief point in having men and womon, boys and girls specially selected for a special field of labour and for the special kind of work they are to perform ; and to move them in large numbers, whether from Ireland, Scotland, or Wales, or any other part of the world, you do a great deal of mischief. I cannot help giving expression to these crude remarks of my own. I have listened with the utmost pleasure to the address, and I think it is most suggestive, and therein consists its value. I think the ideas thrown out are valuable ; but I cannot say I concur in any general scheme of Government emigration, for the reasons I have assigned. Congested populations must be dealt with in a broad, philanthropic manner, and that ia .i question too broad for me to undertake to discuss at this hour. Mr. McArtJmr has expressed surprise about emigration going to the United States. I can tell you in one word what is the reason. I have studied that subject, and the reason why so large a proportion of our vast population go to the United States, and why the largest part of the skilled labour has gone there in times past, .md is still going there now, is that the United States have valuable properties to put the emigrants on, and the Americans themselves thoroughly under- stand how to work the business. The reason why so many of our people go out there is that they have their broad lands, their homc- iitead laws, and their liberal system of dealing with the people as advantages to offer. Canada is now entering the list. I have seen Canada at her v/orst and best. I thinl; she is catering upon a period of active commercial and industrial prosperity, such as the American continent has not seen south of St. LawTeuce, and few of ttion. Imjicrial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 33 the South gricultural. Wo have e holes in e world on ligrants for jelection is the other to do the we look at ■ry delicate it it should confess, on list of any of Govern- ason. that iving men ial field of form ; and Scotland, eat deal of [e remarks re to the ionsists its I cannot ration, for 3t be dealt estion too McArtInu" le United 1. I have portion of irgest part still going ties to put tily under- ny of our leir home- people as have seen ^ upon a ch as the lud few of the States to-day compare with that great granary of the North- West as fields for emigration. I think that Canada to-day presents a better field for a certain class of our people that desire to emigrate than the United States offer, and it will be our own fault if so large a proportion of our people continue to go there and keep onr own Colonies void. (Cheers.) Major-General Lowuv, C.B. : As one who spent many happy years soldiering from one part of Canada to another, I desire to express the extreme pleasure with which I have heard the lecturer's announcement this evening of the minute of the Government of the Dominion to promote emigration to that country, which, he tells us, has this day boon placed before our Houses of Parliament. I think that you, who have heard the Papars given for some time past at our Colonial Institute meetings, will agree with me how singularly fortunate we have been in the men of eminent attain- ment, experience, and power who have addressed us. We have had the great advantage of the ripe experience and information of our ablest men upon almost every part of these vast dominions, which are the peculiar privilege and glory of the mother-country. Sir Richard Temple gave us a glowing picture, not alone of the responsibilities and duties, but of the advantages to ourselves, if rightly used, of our great Indian territory. Sir Bartle Frere enchained our interests with his enlightened views of South Africa, its needs and capacities. Sir Alexander Gait, in his most statesmanlike ami able Paper, riveted our attention on the present and future of the great Dominion of Canada. And now, as a most fitting sequel, we have had the whole field of emigration and our Colonies discussed in no uncatholic spirit by the lecturer of to-night. For, if the main part of Mr. Torrens's address has been directed to Canada, as perhaps for the present the most pressing field for us to go forth and occupy, he has certainly not left unnoticed those other 'vantage grounds for our use and blessing offered by the other dependencies of the British Empire. If, as I I take it, emigration from England, Ireland, and Scotland be about the most pressing subject of this day, this Institute of ours has been keeping true pace with the beating pulse of the nation's heart in thus putting it so prominently before you as each one of these four able lecturers have done in the early months of this year. And I think we must surely see, from Mr. Torrens's eloquent aid earnest remarks to-night, that the subject will not be lost sight of by Parliament. To a great extent, it seems to me, emigration ^ to our own Colonies may be a panacea for many of the ills afflicting one portion, at all events, as well as a needed boon to all portions c IWJi 34 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Kmigration. of these Homo lands ; and that, like charity, it will bless those that give and those that take. Let us but act towards it in a large and generous spirit, and I dare to say wo will experience more and more as years go on that our Colonies— God's best gift to us as a nation — will be, if wisely treated, more and more sources of pride, of strength, and of advantage to us. The gatherings of this Insti- tute in larger numbers from month to month, from every quarter of the Empire, must tend to strengthen our hands, and the hands of whatever Government may be in power, and to weld all together for the true interests of our countr}*, our Colonies, and ourselves. It may be, indeed, this so rapidly-growing Royal Colonial Institute, on the lines on which it is working, is destined to do a great work not only towards consolidating the Empire of England at homo and abroad, but towards forecasting and foreshadowing that Empire's — in the deeper and fuller meaning of the words — Imperial Parliament. The Chairman : I think that the opinion T expressed when intro- ducing Mr. Torrens has been fully justified, and that he has de- livered a most able lecture on a most interesting subject ; indeed, it has proved so interesting that, as I expected, so many gentle- men who ought to be heard, are desirous of speaking that it will be impossible to conclude the discussion to-night. It will therefore be my duty to adjourn this meeting to another occasion. (Hear, hear.) I am happy to say that among those gentlemen Avho have expressed their lesiro to speak is Mr. James Tuke, whose name I am sure will be familiar to you all as one who has devoted an immense deal of time and labour to the investigation and elueidn- tion of this subject, being well acquainted with Ireland in former days, having visited the distressed portions of that country, and having gone to Manitoba and America to learn for himself Avhat could be done there. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I shall not keep you long now, it being rather late ; but I would like to say one or two words on this subject, as it is one which interests me very much. Last summer, having had the pleasure and the advantage of conversing on this subject with Mr. Pope and Sir John Mac- donald, the present Prime Minister of Canada, I ventured to make some remarks upon it in the House of Parliament, in which I have the honour to sit ; and I shadowed forth at the time a good deal that is contained in the memorandum which Mr. Torrens has alluded to. Well, the House of liords, with that dignity which bccnmos it, rather sat upon ine than otherwise — (laughter) — and I was told that emigration was a very difficult subject, and one that the Government did not particularly care to deal with. But it ition. bless those i in a large more and to us as a 3S of pride, this Insti- 3ry quartor . the hands ) wold all Ionics, and 'al Colonial cd to do a if England shadowing le words — rhen intro- 18 has de- it ; indeed, my gentle- that it will I therefore Q. (Hear, Avho have se name I iovotod an id elucidn- in former untry, and iiself ■\\hat II not keep say one or ts me very advantage John Mac- )d to make lich I have good deal )rrens has lity which er} — and T d one that ih. But it Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Kmlgration. 35 jvpponrs to me that Mr. Torrcns was right in saying that if there are difficulties in the way, that is exactly what the Governraeut ought to grapple with. In fact, that is what the Government is for — (hoar, hoar) — their duty is to overcome difficulties ; and it appears to mo, if they object to touch a subject because it is a delicate and a difficult one, that they cease to carry out the functions for which they are placed in the position which they occupy. (Hear, hear.) Now, Mr. McArthur, who, I fear, has ulready left, called our attention to what is an important fact, viz. tho great advantage of our directing emigration to our own Colonies. There can be no doubt that our own Colonics are the proper places to receive tho overplus of our population, because it is more natural that our own children should receive tho benefit, than that other people, who are not so closely allied to us in blood, should do so. (Hear, hear.) And it is an advantage to us. There is no doubt that a great deal of disaffection in Ireland is [)crpctuatcd by the great enmity felt towards Great Britain by Irish Americans. The fact i§ that people leave Ireland, having led miserable lives there ; they go to the United States, and find a different condition of things. They find, in the first place, that thoy must exert themselves, for, if they do not, nobody will take oare of them ; and, in tho second place, thoy find that if thoy (xcrt themselves thoy soon become prosperous and well-to-do. They do not stop to reason about it ; and they imagine that the <'.ause of their prosperity is due to the fact that they are no longer under the British flag. If thoy go to Canada, they have equal opportunities, and they make oqusil use of them ; they have the same degree of prosperity ; and thoy become loyal subjects of the (}uoen. But the conclusion they come to on this subject generates ii great deal of enmity to this country. Now, some mention was made of the fact that Canada has come rather prominently for- ward in this question of emigration as related to Ireland. Well, that is accounted for by the distress and the overcrowding in cer- tain parts of Ireland, which naturally calls our attention to that portion of the United Kingdom whore emigration is most needed ; :ind tho reason why Canada offers tho first inducement to emigra- tion is its proximity to Ireland. As Mr. Torrens says, distance is almost annihilated, still it is not quite annihilated ; and if a man has got to leave his native land, it makes some considerable difference to him whether he has to go a journey which will occupy iijm a fortnight, or three weeks, or a month. (Hear, hear.) Another thing : I think Canada has been specially prompt on this occasion. The Canadians saw this distress coming on, and that 86 ImiKrial ond CoUm'ud Pailiuiithip in Emi(jratum. I thcro would be great nccoHsity for omif^ration ; and, with commcml- ablo energy, they stepped in and ott'ercd pecuhar advantages to persons desirous of emigrating to Canada. They also appear to take a little wider and more liberal view of the subject than some other Colonies. I gather from the suggCHtions of Sir Alexander Gait, and I perfectly agree with him that it is wise and well that emigrants, say from Ireland, should more or loss bo mixed up with the population amongst which they go, and that they should not bo settled en bh>c in their midst. (Hear, hoar.) lUit, as I under- stood M'-. McArthiir and Sir Arthur Blyth, they considered it necessary to obtain an equal proportion of emigrants from tho three kingdoms— they wanted emigrants in assorted lots. (Laughter.) Hero there is a little dilticulty ; becauso, obviously, if Jreland suffers as it did last year, that is the particular part of tho United Kingdom from which the people will go. But, if you have 1,000 or 10,0(K) families wanting to go from Ireland, you cannot send them if it is necessary to send also 1,000 or 10,000 families from Scotland and an equal numberfrora England, for, possibly, that number of families may not desire to emigrate from the two latter countries. (Hear, hear.) I agree in the main principle about its being undesirable, as a general rule, for the State to occupy itself in matters which can bo done without its assistance. But, in this maiter of emigration, I think assistance from the State is necessary r"d desirable. The State "alone, being entirely disinterested, can guarantee proper treatment to emigrants, who should not be depen- dent upon private individuals and companies, however excellent and honest they may be. The great object appears to mo to be that emigration should be made as easy and painless as possible. (Hear, hear.) It is hard enough for any man to leave his native land, unless he does so naturally and willingly. It is hard, I mean, for him to be obliged to do so from distress and poverty ; and the only thing that can bo done is to alleviate his suffering, and render it as small as possible. It is n^essary to that end that his family should accompany him. (Cheers.) I was glad to hear Sir Alex- ander Gait say that it is unfair for the bone and sinew of the country to leave it, and the helpless women and children and old men to remain behind. (Hear, hear.) It is only fair that if the bread-winner is obliged to emigrate, those dependent on him should accompany him. (Hear.) It appears to me that this is a matter in which the State may very well interfere, to the extent of seeing, as far as we are concerned, that the Canadian Government fully cai'ry out their promises. The Canadian Government, on their part, will see that we send them mate: ial they require. I think •dtion. h commend - VIlIltllglsM tl> 10 appear to t than Homo r Alcxanilor id well that xcd up with r fihotild not as I under - onsiderod it; its fi'om tho 3rtcd lots, obviously, if ; part of tho if you have you cannot ,000 fiunilies lossibly, that 10 two latter lie about its occupy itself But, in this is necessary terested, can lot be dcpen- rer excellent to mo to be as possible, s native land, , I mean, for and the only I render it as t his family ear Sir Alex- sinew of the Iren and old ir that if the n him should s is a matter ent of seeing, rnmcnt fully cut, on their lire. I think Iinpcnal and Colonial Partnership In Emigration. 37 one of tho most oxtr.iordin a-y thin:,'S is tho dilTiculty which people BOom to have in grasping dutails, even where they recogniKO great principles. (Hear, hoar.) Tiio priuciplo uf free trade has beou conceded long ago in this country ; and yot it is astonishing, even now, how dillicult it is to persuade some people that where you have a country with au imuiouHo population, and a small quantity of laud, and rice vermi, that it would bo a good thing to move that population to tho land. If you could move tho land to the popu- lation it would be hotter, but you cannot. (Laughter.) I will not detain you any longer now. I am sure you will agree with mo in thanking those gentlemen who have spoken to-night, and in moving a most hearty vote of thanks to Mr. M'CuUagh Torrens for his int'jrosting and instructive lecture. (Cheers.) I will now move that this meeting bo adjourned to this day week, Tuesday, the 29th inst., as there arc already eight or nine gentlemen who wish to speak. AfPJOunxKD Discussion. Tho Noblo Chairman said : Ladies and Gentlemen,— In resuming the discussion wo adjourned last Tuesday, I call upon Mr. Walter Peace, of Natal, to address you. Mr. Wai.tkk Pkace: My Lord, Ladies and Gentlemen,— I feel I occu])y a position to which I am by no means entitled unless it is intended that I should nuike the preliminary canter to lead into the discussion which is to follow ; an adjourned discussion is generally somewhat tame. We have lost the inspiriting eloquence of such speakers as wo had the pleasure of listening to last Tues- day ; and, as I do not think I shall trouble you up to the full extent allowed to speakers— ten minutes— you will have not so much to forgive. In the first place I take the opportunity of ex- pressing my sense of the obligations that Mr. Torrens has placed us under by the time and attention he has devoted to the prepara- tion of the'very able Paper which he read— very able indeed— in connection with the subject on which he treated. (Hear, hear.) I taki,' it as a contribution intended for the education of the upper ten thousand and the upper middle-classes; and on Colonial ques- tions I do not think there is any subject on which those classes are more in need of education. (Apidause.) I feel, however, that there is a little misapprehension on tho part of Mr. Torrens in ■bringing in the word "partnership." Partnership presupposes two peoplo who are not already connected ; and I think it will be a bad day for the country when it is necessary to take the outside view of partnership in anything which relates to Great Britain and 88 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. her Colonies. (Hear, hear.) We all know that the British Empire extends over a great i^ortiou of the glohe, and that none of its members can suffer without the whole body suCeriug. That the whole Empire has suffered and is suffering from want of sufficient attention having been paid to the subject of colonisation in the past, we all know ; but I think we shall ill knov/ it at a greater cost and a much heavier sacrifice before many years are over. Sir Alexander Gait, in the very able and statesmanlike Paper he deli- vered a little while ago, called our attention to some facts, two or three of which are present to my memory, that during the last twenty-eight years England has parted with over 3,000,000 of ber subjects, who are now aliens to this country, to the United States of America, which is by no means a thick-aud-thin friend of England. Eor the last five years there have been more inhabitants of Great Britain who have left this country and gone to the United States of America— well, nearly twice as many as the whole white popula- tion of South Africa. (Hear, hear.) When I mention South Africa, my lord, the idea occurs to me "!' -H it is the first time South Africa has been mentioned in this discussion, including the whole of the last meeting. (Hear, hear.) The Paper Mr. Torrens read does not deal (whether it was his intention or not I cannot say) with the question of colonisation and the question of emigration as regards the Empire. As Sir Arthur Blyth very properly pointed out, the Paper was devoted more to certain schemes wbich are now on foot in connection with the colonisation of Manitoba and the relief of dis- tress in the south and west of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) A few pass- ing words about South Australia and New South Wales — those were the only references made to any portion of the British Colonial Empire. I feel regret, though probably there were reasons present to the mind of Mr. Torrens wbich made him curtail his remarks to those few points. Mr. Torrens said that he would iiot favour any scheme which might raise ^spicion in the minds of the colonists of favouritism — that he would not be a party to any partiality in the action of the House of Commons. I am very glad to hear this from the tenour of the lecture to which I have referred ; and I only hope that in his seat in the House he will be able and will con- tinue to take a lively interest in the question which is becoming the most prominent and most important question which the Eng- lish Parliament will have to deal with ; and I also hope the members of the two Houses will themselves realise that the British Empire as it exists is not in a positini! to bo played with with impimity. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Torrens Las alluded to the fact, inter alia, that we can do with the pith and marrow at home ; and so wo can. In tion. isli Empire one of its That the f sufficient tion in the a greater over. Sir er he deli- cts, two or ig the last ,OnO of her :)d States of >f England. ts of Great .ted States lite popula- luth Africa, outh Africa lole of the road does ly) with the as regards ed out, the low on foot relief of dis- ;V few pass- ales — those isli Colonial ons present remarks to favour any 10 colonists )artiality in to hear this ; and I only id will con- s hecoming h the Eng- le members ish Empire I impunity. jy alia, that VG can. lu Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Eini/jration. 39 England we can do with all the pith and marrow— the intelligent, sober, and industrious citizens ; but it is no use thinking that under any scheme of emigration any of our Colonies will accept anything less. (Hear, hear.) So long as they can get the best men, they will get them. A gentleman near me, Mr. Hall, implied the other night that Government emigration agents as a rule are troubled with a moral obliquity which does not make it fit that they should carry out the duties entrusted, to them. We are not all blessed with the experience of Mr. Hall, for he is interested, I believe, in an emigration scheme for which he is both Government and Emigration Agent. I am sorry to say I did not benefit by his lecture so much as I perhaps ought to have done. (Laughter.) As regards sending out females, it is a regu- lation in this country ; and the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies wiU not give his consent to any married man being granted assistance for passage to any of the British Colonies unless he takes all his family with him— that is, all those who are dependent on him ; and I doubt whether any Colony will ever be induced to subscribe to the passage out for more than those. The style of men that are wanted as colonists are men who feel that they are determined to better their condition in hfe— (hear, hear) —men who will trust in God and their own right arm ; and men whom the agents are good enough to think promise well. We do not want men weakened by debauchery, unsteady, and addicted to drink, and, therefore, incapable of performing a good day's work for a good day's wage. We have got in the Colony, I repeat, plenty of good land and plenty of work for those inclined to work, either on the " land " or in following their different trades as artisans. We do not profess to say that we have got 20,000 acres in extent to give to him in Natal, where the conditions of Hfe are too valuable for that ; but we can give them the right to take up laud and pay for it at 10s. per acre, by ten yearly payments of Is. per acre ; if people do not consider freehold land worth paying that for, we say we do not want such persons. Ten shillings per acre for the free- hold is not a bad offer. The principle of selection I need not deal with here. Mr. Hall objected to the question of assistance. I say it is only to those who are willing to help themselves that any Government could be called upon fairly to render assistance. I have sent off some people to Natal by the Garth Castle to-day, and I confidently expect that in a few years' time, when I may hope to meet them a^ain, T shall find them in a different and improved position from what they are in when leaving this country. You will excuse this reference to the small Colony of Natal j but of all #• 40 Imperial and Colonial PartnersU'ip hi Emifimtion. Colonies that England possesses, there is not "one which at the present time shows such 4in average of wealth in her people, such freedom from distress — climatic or otherwise — in fact, no Colony which reproduces more tlioroughly the best phases of English pro- vincial life than does the Colony of Natal. (Hear, hear.) As Sir Arthur Blyth said with regard to South Australia, when they want colonists they will fetch them and pay for them. I inysolf should be very glad to see the mother-country stretching out the hand of sympathy to bring herself more within touch of Colonial feeling — (hear, hear) —and I am sure there is not one of the Colonics of England where tJie people are not ready and anxious, and have been long looking for such a feeling on the part of the Parliament and people of this country. (Applause.) Mr. Torrens has said that distance has been annihilated. There is one thing of which I am sure, that there is no greater distance can be named than that be- tween the conceptions of Colonial life which obtain in England and the facts. (He, •, hear.) An Englishman is never so good as when he has been transplanted. I consider that the youth of the average Englishman is wholly stunted in comparison with what he attains after he has been abroad into the world and become more thoroughly developed. The noble Lord, the Chairman, spoke the other night of making the separation as painless as possible. His remarks were kindly intended ; but the men who require a great amount of coddling and inducing to go to the Colonics, of whose arm we must take hold and say, " Here, my good fellow, come along, it will not be for long ; you will mako your fortune in a few years, and then come back again ! " they are not the sort of men to make colonists. (Hear, hear.) Unless a man feels within him- self a desire to improve his position in life, and to make himself a, ei-edit to the nation to which he belongs, he is not likely to suc- ceed. No half-hearted work will do in the Colonics ; and, if any practical effect should result from this and other lectures delivered in this room, it will be necessary to get at the people of England to let them reaHse that they are only going to another part, and a better part, of the empire. I thJisk a great deal of good will result, and that we shall see the day when the British Empire will be what we used to regard it twenty years ago. (Applause.) Mr. James H. Tuke : My Lord, Ladies, and Gentlemen,— I feel that I ought to offer an apology for presuming to speak in a com- pany like this, when there are so many gentlemen who have liad opportunities far greater than my own for becoming acquainted with Imperial Colonisation. My apology for speaking at all must be that, having during the winter and early spring of 1880 been ation. lich at the )eople, such no Colony Inglish pro- r.) As Sir I they want ■self should he hand of il feeling — Colonics of i, and have Parliament IS said that which I am lan that be- ngland and >od as when the average : he attains !ome more , spoke the ;sible. His ire a great 3, of whose )llow, come no in a few art of men vithin hini- ike himself :ely to suc- and, if any s delivered of England )art, and a will result, 'ill be what ten, — I feel in a com- o have liad acquainted at all must 1880 been Imperial and Colonial 1\ rtnerslnp in KmUjration. 41 very much engaged in the West of Ireland investigating the con- dition of the people there, I became very strongly impressed with the importance, if not absolute necessity, of emigration from certain districts of the West of Ireland. Not that emigration is a panacea for the evils of Ireland — (loud cheers) — the panacea for the evils which beset Ireland is n-orl,- in Ireland — (applause) — not emigration What is wanted is to place the Irishman in such a position that he can most thoroughly and practically develop that which is the staple of his own country — the land. That I take to be the panacea for Irish distress, of Irish want; but, having said so, I nevertheless do most strongly feel that emigration is a most important question in reference to certain districts of the West of Ii-eland. We can hardly have any conception, without witnessing it, of the dire poverty of certain districts in the West of Ireland. We can hardly have any conception of the small holdings and the small occupa- tions of the people there ; and when, in the autumn of last year, wishing to have a tour in the United States, it was suggested to me by my friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that I might visit Manitoba and other districts to which it was proposed by the Canadian Government that emigrants should be assisted by the Home Government, I included these as a portion of my journey. Thus, in the course of one year, I saw perhaps the most distressed population on the face of fie earth, and, on the other hand, the most unbounded prospect of benefit and improvement for their con- dition, in those great, wide, fertile prairie lands in the North- western territory of Canada. In the one country, tens of thousands of strong men, idle and discontented for want of employment; and, in the other, within reach in fourteen days, millions of acres of pro- lific land lying idle, and needing these very men to develop their untold wealth. The contrast could scarcely have been greater. When I afterwards saw Irishmen, both in Canada and Manitoba, or in parts of the United States, who had gone there as miserable and wretched as those whom I have referred to, and who, after a few years, had become thoroughly well-to-do in the true sense of the word — hard-working, industrious people, with their lands about them — I own it made me feel with still greater force the immense importance which attaches to our Government taking up, as one portion of the remedies for the evils in Ireland, the question of emigration. (Hear, hear.) It will, however, I am afraid, be urged by gentlemen like the one Avho has just favoured us with some remarks— to which I have listened with very great pleasure— that I am going back to the old rut, the old failing, of speaking exclu- sively upon Canada and Ireland. Well, it would seem to me that 42 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Enwjraiion. i \ IS in looking at meetings like the one held the other evening to listen to and discuss a paper on Colonial Emigration, and of which this is a continuation, that this is really what we want — that each indi- vidual, from his point of view, shall give us the information which he has. (Hear, hear.) To my own mind, I have no jealousy ; I am delighted to hear about Natal and Australia ; I am delighted to hear about New Zealand; but, on the other hand, I think it is very desirable and very important that we should also know something about Canada — (hear, hear)— and it would be a pity if any petty jealousy should prevail on the subject. Perhaps I even go further than some of the gentlemen who have spoken ; for, whilst I do very strongly contend that it should be the duty of our Government to assist and to give information with reference to our Colonies, I do not regret to the same extent that some gentlemen do, to find that a large number of Irishmen have gone to the United States ; for, after all, the United States are a great EngUsh-speaking people. ('* No, no ! " and "■ Yes, yes ! ") Well, they are a portion of the great English-speaking people; and I think we maybe justly proud that the great United States is an English-speaking people. (Applause.) Let us imagine it to be, for a moment, a French- speaking people or a German-speaking people, instead of an English- speaking people ! I own, when I was called upon in the United States to address a company there, I said, "I feel as an Englishman that I am speaking to Englishmen;'' and that, I believe, is the true way we want to look at this question. The noble lord who presides over us has shown how deeply he appreciates the United States, having purchased, I will not say a Paradise there, but something next door to it, in that magnificent estate of Estes Park. But having said so much by way of, shall I say guarding myself against some remarks I want to make, I do, on the other hand, most heartily wish that our Government would take up this question of emigration to our Colonies. It is, to my mind, a matter of ex- treme regret (and I do not hesitate to say so) that looking back for the past twenty-eight years siffce this great tide of emigration set in, that of 2,037,000 persons who have left Ireland, no less than 1,715,000 have found their way to the United States, and 370,000 only to all our own Colonies."'' And so, again, with the past year, out of 95,000 emigrants, 71, GOO went to the United States, whilst not more tlian 3,052 went to Canada, and 4,000 to Australia and other Colonies. (Hear, hear.) This is much to be regretted ; for whilst it is impossible to avoid feeling that the "attractive power,% * 600.000 found their way to Great Britain. ion. Imperial and Colonial Partncrshi}) in Emigration. 43 g to listen which this each iiuli- tion wliich ^alousy ; I 3hghted to : it is very something any petty go further 1 1 do very 3rnment to onies, I do ) find that tates ; for, ag people, ion of the istly proud ig people, a Freuch- ,n English- thc United Inglisliman is the true 10 presides ted States, something Park. But ing myself ither hand, lis question itter of ex- ng hack for [gration set lo less than aid 370,000 J past year, ates, whilst stralia and ;retted ; for ive power,'? the momentum of some 40,000,(100 to 50,000,000 of people in the United States, will always tell against the 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 in Canada, and the 2,000,000 or 3,0u0,i'00 in our other Colonies ; still, I do not see, if the Government had been alive to the far- reaching importance of emigration, why a large number of these persons might not have been rightly directed into our own Colonies. (Hear, hear.) But, you will say, surely, if 2,G00,O00 persons have emigrated from Ireland in the past twenty-eight years there is no need for State aid ? That emigration which last year amounted to 95,000 people from Ireland, and during the last twenty eight years has varied from 37,000 to 190,000, that this immense stream does not require to be assisted. Well, in a certain way, I think we must say that it does not need to bo assisted, that the numbers are as large as they need to be. (Hear, hear.) When we look, also, at the amount of aid which has been sent over by these people in these twenty-eight years we find that it is no less than £20,000,000 sterling. (Applause.) That largo sum has been sent over by the poor people who have gone out to the United States or Canada, in small sums, to their brethren, their fathers, mothers, and sons and daughters at home, and surely it may be said that these people may be left to aid themselves ! There is great force in that ; but what a noble thought that these people have sent over here year by year such, sums of money ! that last year £1,400,000 should have been sent over by the immigrants iu the United States and Canada to assist their poor brethren in Ireland. It is a very striking and very important fact, and one which should be recognised when we speak of Irish unthrift and Irish idleness. (Applause.) There are, then, three questions which seem to me to arise for our consideration, namely (1) Is the emigration from the poorest districts of Ireland — the most densely peopled districts, and from the classes which most need help there ? (2.) Is the emigration now going on the most beneficial to the country — to Ireland, and does it really take those whom it is desirable should leave, or whom it is desirable to have as colonists ? And (3) Are the centres to which the emigrants go the best on national and Imperial grounds ? I have already gone into the third question, and I need not, therefore, touch upon it further. As to the first, whether emigration is really from the districts which we know want helping, which we had fed last winter in Ireland, to this it is replied that of the 95,000 who left Ireland in 1880, 28,0U0 went from the rich, prosperous province of Ulster — nearly one-third of the whole from Ulster— whilst from Connaught, the source of the trouble and difficulty, or at least a large portion of it, i 44 Imperial and Colonhl Partnership in Emigration. where last winter aul spring a majority of the people had to be helped and fed, only 20,000 emigratod. Look, again, at the emigra- tion from Ulster : if wo would divide it into Ulster prosperous and Ulster non-prosperous, we must take for the latter the county of Donegal, where last winter there were 00,000 people being fed with daily rations, and we find that, out of the 28,000 emigrants who left the province, 3,300 only were from Donegal. Thus we hnd the smallest number leaving the most impoverished distric s. Ap- plause.) Tally these two facts ; doe ■ i' not appear that, winJst there are as many men and women lea I,-' Ireland every year as we could wish to see as Englishmen, yet they are not the men and women we could wish to see. having regard to the great question of the impoverishment of Ireland. It maybe urged that heso verv poor people are not wanted in the Colonies. I do not think, however, tiiere is any material difference, any radical ditference, between those on the west coast and the people of Munster and the other districts. That is my own impression. I have met or heard of hundreds of Mayo men in the United States and in Canada, who would stand the test as well, as thoroughly good colonists, as those from other parts of Ireland. As regards the second question whether the people who emigrate go in families, I do not know anything more striking than the figures which are P^^^l;«|;f J^" reference to this in these emigration returns. Out of Jo.UUU people who left last year, 52,000 of them were between the ages ot 15 and 25, and 20,000 beween the ages of 25 and 35, whilst lu per cent, were under 15, and 10 per cent, over 35 years of age. Seventy- five per cent, of the whole were thus between the ages of 15 and 35, and in addition a very large proportion (70 to 80 per cent.) o these people were unmarried ; thus the family element was almost entirely wanting. That is, I believe, one exceedingly important matter indeed, and the Canadian Government are very strongly impressed with the necessity of inducing fainihes to emigrate. Much of the mischief which feas occurred in reference to emigration to the United States and other portions of America, has arisen from the fact of single men and single women, in the absence of the family element, remaining in tlie cities, and not going out at once to take up land, as the Germans and others so largely do. Look- in" at the important bearing of the various facts I have hastily alfuded to, it must, I think, be felt that it is exceedingly important for the Government carefully to consider the whole question of ^.migration. (Applause.) Upon the third question I have already stated my views, and I will not say any more as to whether the countries selected by the emigrants are the best for the purpose. on. Imiierial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 45 lad to be 3 emigra- 3rous and county of J fed with ,s who left e find the its. (Ap- it, whilst •y year as i men and ; question ihat these not think, difference, er and the it or heard ,nada, who ;3, as those 1 question ) not know iblished in of 1)5,000 the ages of liilst 15 per Seventy- 1 of 15 and er cent.) of was almost y important 3ry strongly 3 emigrate. emigration arisen from ence of the out at once ■ do. Look- have hastily ly important question of lave already whether the the purpose. I believe I should be taking up more time than I ought to do, and I will, therefore, hastily conclude by saying just this in reference to the North- Western Teviitory and Manitoba, that the result of my inquiries very strongly confirms all that has been said as to the extraordinary resources and fertility of tlie country, and that there is a great field for enterprise — a great opening there for our sur- plus population for many years to come. It is of the greatest importance to Canada that the enormous district iioav called the " North- Western Territory" should have been opened out, and the only wonder is that it has not been opened out before. I think the chief reason why this has not been done is to be found in the circumstance that for nearly seven months of the year access is denied to the Colony except through the United States ; and, as you know, very great importance is, therefore, being at- tached to the Canada Pacific Railway, which will develop this immense territory. It is without doubt a land of very great pro- mise, and I may refer anyone [who cares to know more of its advantages and disadvantages, to an article on emigration in the February number of the Nineteenth Centanj. Whilst in Manitoba I met a tenant of our noble chairman, a most hitclUgent man, with whom I travelled one or two days, and whose knowledge of land was a groat assistance to me. He had come to the opinion, which I believe almost everyone else who has visited the conn try has formed, viz., that there is in the great North- Western Terri- tory a very great opening for British colonists. I must apologise for having taken up so much of your time. (Cheers.) Dr. John Eae : My Lord, Ladies and Gentlemen,— It may be from the old love of the country, the great North-west of Canada, in which I have passed many years of my life, that it has a great attraction for me, and that leads me to give a favourable opinion regarding it. As to the soil, I have had large opportunities of judging of its excellence, having traversed the country on three occasions (on one of which I crossed the Eocky Mountains) in summer and once in winter. On the journey across the mountains above referred to, my attention was particularly drawn to the quality of the soil, and, with one or two trifling exceptions, I found it remarkably fine along the whole lino of route from Winnipeg westward. Where lands ha,ve been cultivated crops have been consecutively grown for twenty or thirty years on the same fields, yielding large returns, without manure of any kind ; in fact, when a farmhouse was near the banks of a river, all the manure from the cattle was sledged out on to the river, to be carried away ^yhen the ice broke up in spring. Now, as to the great rush of emigra- II r- It i 46 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Enwjration. tion to the United States instead of Canada, no speaker that I have heard has given one of the chief reasons which has led most of the Irish people and others to go to the United States in pre- ference to Canada. This attraction is the great prairie lands of the United States, Illinois, Ohio, Minnesota, &c., where they have patches of wood ; hut the great bulk of the land is prairie, where the buffaloes in former years were to be seen in countless thou- sands. Those lands are reached by railway very rapidly, and tho emigrants had merely to scratch a few acres of this prairie, put in the seed, and raise a crop tho first season of their arrival. With the emigrant to Canada the case was different. He was located on a thickly-timbered piece of land, every yard of which had to bo cleared. I have tried cutting down trees myself as an amateur, and I can say from experience that to one not accustomed to use the axe, there is no harder or more laborious work. All the young men that go from the north of Scotland to Hudson's Bay, have usually during winter a fixed daily amount of wood-chopping to accomplish, which means felling tho trees, cutting them into billets of 2 feet long in sufficient quantity to make an hnymtlij put together pile, 12 feet long, 4 feet high, and 2 feet wide. ^ At first this day's task is an extremely laborious one, and it sometimes took years of experience before they could accomplish it easily. The woods have been the greatest enemies to those going to Canada as emigrants. (Hear, hear.) I have seen men not more than 45 years of age prematurely broken down by the great labour in "clearing only a very small farm, whereas to their children, brought up to the use of the axe, the work was merely a healthy exercise. We have now for the first time prairie lands in Canada accessible to the emigrant, because they are now to bo reached by railway, and our Colony may now have an opportunity of a more favourable competition with her gigantic rival. In speaking so favourably ol" Manitoba, I am only expressing the sentiments of hundreds of dis- interested people who have hem there and judged for themselves as I did. There you have a healthy climate (as exemplilied by the Hudson Bay Company's people, who have spent almost all their lives in different parts of the country) and a most productive soil. ^Ye have few or no doctors there ; possibly someone may think that is the cause why there is little sickness. I was a doctor there myoelf at a fixed ycarhj pay, but had little or no prac- tice. (Laughter.) It is said that the cold winter is a disadvantage, but it is neither longer nor colder than in the province of Quebec. A good coat of snow over the land fits it for next season's crop, and storms of wind to pack the snow hard and drift it into great )». Imiierkd and Colotiial Partnership In Emigration. 47 r that I led most s in pre- lands of ley have le, where )ss thou- , anil the e, put in 1. With )catccl on ad to he amateur, id to use he young Jay, liavo )pping to ito hillots lestltj put At first imes took ily. The Canada as than 45 lahour in L, hrought ' exercise, [iccessibh^ y railway, avourable )urably ol" )ds of dis- bemselves pUfied by almost all n-oductivo cone may I was a r no prac- :dvantage, >f Ouebec. ion's crop, into great heaps are rare. That this is true is indicated by the fact that all along the fcrtilo belt in the valley of the Saskatchewan Eivcr do- mestic cattle can live in fine condition out of doors all winter. Buffaloes and horses scrape away the snow with their feet so as to get at the grass on which they feed ; horned domestic cattle have not acquired this habit, but work their noses down through the snow to the grass. This answers very well in winter, but occa- sionally in spring there is a thaw, succeeded by a sharp frost, which forms a hard crust on the snow, which cuts the noses of the cattle in their attempts to reach food. The farmer must lay up a small stock of hay for such emergency. There is nothing in tho climate to prevent people being happy and comfortable in Manitoba, notwithstanding the great cold sometimes experienced. Mr. Alexander Wilmot : I should not have ventured to join in this discussion but for the fact that South Africa has been ignored in the address and in the debate which followed. Now, when wo are to consider emigration to tho Colonics, I do think it desirable that one or two facts connected with the Cape Colony should be brought forward. (Hear, hear.) Tho truth is that the Cape Colony has been hitherto the Cinderella of the Colonial children of Great Britain : but, as she has been in Iho past the Cinderella, excluded from all invitations, so in tlie future I trust she will be like Cintlerella when lior true qualities were discovered. She is, if not the best, certainly one of the best, of the great family of tho Colonial Empire. Already we know that she has become attractive by means of her riches in diamonds and ostrich feathers, and it is certain that she now forms one of the best fields for emigration. This fact should be recognised on all occasions such as the present. Let us reflect for a moment on what the Capo Colony possesses. It comprises as fine sheep walks as any in the entire world. She has ground which can be sold as cheaply as any in Canada or New South Wales, and a climate which is equal to the climate of New South Wales, and I should assume quite equal to that of Canada. We should remember that, however great must be the advantage of the climate in Canada, during the winter, for five or six months of the year all agricultural operations are suspended, whereas in the Cape Colony two or three crops can be raised in the year. You have the richest copper mines in the world in Southern Africa, and in this respect it may be said that the land has only been scratched, as we know that only one company is at work in a place which the Dutch correctly styled the "Copper Mountains," The com- pany now working pays dividends whicli prove what sort of mines exist there. The Colony has Griqualaud West now incorporated 48 ImpcvUd and ddonud Vartncvshq) In Kmifjration. with it, and there arc incoinparahly the richest iliamond mines of the world. During my residence of twenty-live years in the Capo Colony, I have known numbers of people who have left the Colony, but have returned a^'ain. In my laiowlcdgo such people have found the Cape Colony better than Australia, or New Zea- land, or South America. I do think that the advantages of the Cape Colony arc so numerous and important that it is one of the Colonies of the Empire which ought to be included in any great scheme of emigration. One powerful consideration which ought to influence England in the siibject of emigration to South Africa is this-thatin South Africa we have to deal with great masses of natives, to whom we have a mission of civilisation under the British ila". To fulfil that mission properly we must have immi- gration It is unquestionably the duty of Great Britain to co- operate with the Cape Colony in civilising the natives, of whom there arc humlrcds of thousands in the Cape Colony and on its borders They certainly can find no better plan than that of emi- gration,' and tiiat is a plan which puts an end to those wars which are such a source of sorrow and regret to this country— (hear, hear)— and tend so much to hinder the progress of South Africa. In that sense emigration is of great consequence indeed. I do think that Mr. Torrens deserves the best thanks of all colonists for the able and statesmanlike address he has delivered. (Hear, hear.) I was sorry to hear objections to it by some Australian gentlemen —objections based on a narrow basis. The lecturer no doubt meant to include all the Colonies. He takes the class of people m the west of Ireland who require emigration exceedingly, and he proves that class of people to be those who would benefit in the country toVhich thev go. (Hear, hear.) He proved that those he wants to send out are deserving, hard-working people, who would succeed as farmers. I think that class of people ought to be considered first in any Imperial scheme, as their wants are so great. (Hear, hear ) In connection with this subject I may mention that, al- though few Irish, comparativcly,%avc gone to the Cape Colony, it is iny experience that these poor farming men have succeeded admirably They have benefited themselves and the country to which they have gone. (Hear, hear.) In the neighbourhood of Port Ehzabeth, Kragakamma is occupied by that class of people- small farmers— who scarcely deserve the name of farmers, very poor men who gained their living by tilling small plots of land. These men were sent out to that district, and as each one has made a competence and fortune, he has benefited himself, his family, and the country to ^vhich he went. (Hear, hear.) The two points nines of 10 Capo left the I people Dw Zea- 8 of the 3 of the ly great li ought .1 Africa asses of ider the k'o irami- n to co- )f whom (1 on its b of emi- L'S which ■ — (hear, 1 Africa, d. I do )uists for ir, hear.) sntlcmen bt meant le in the le proves 3 country he wants :1 succeed Dnsidered , (Hear, that, al- Dolony, it succeeded ountry to iirhood of peoplc- icrs, very s of land, has made is family, ;wo points Jmpjild aiitl Cohtn'id l\ivtncv)ihip in EiiiUjnit'itni. 40 I wish to briuf,' forward are simply that no scheme is worthy the attention of the Government unless it be a great national scheme, and that South Africa should be certainly included in it, (Hear, hear.) Mr. Torrcns deserves the hearty and generous support of every colonist. (Applause.) Mr. J. A. Br.-VKK, M.P. : In the few observations that I propose to address to the meeting, it is not my intention either to advocate or condemn emigration. There are certain classes of people who would emigrate, led either by the love of adventure, the desire of change, or forced by circumstances ; and I think it is a duty of all of us who can do so to afford such people the best information as to the best place to go to so as to obtain a good return for their industry. I fully concur with the observations made by that good friend of Ireland, Mr. Tuke, who 1 have the pleasure of seeing for the first time this evening, in the desire he expresses that more of the Irish could bo kept at home. I have no doubt that, if the resources of the country Avero properly developed, it would afford a profitable occupation for a much larger amount of people than now obtain it. But, my lord,, wo cannot conceal from oui-selvos the unfortunate fact of the miserable condition of a large portion of the population of Ireland. It was my duty for some ten years past as an Inspector of Fisheries to become acquainted with the most distressed districts of Ireland — those of Connemara, County Gal- way, the County of Mayo, and the County of Donegal ; and I can fully corroborate everything that ]\fr. Tuke has said with regard to the miserable condition of the people in portions of those counties.. Even in good times, as my official duties led me there, I found many thousands of people who never ate anything but potatoes, and very often only able to have water with them. They dressed in the most wretched manner. They occupied land which, if I may be excused the bull for a moment, consisted of sub-soil of granite, with about six inches of bad peat soil over it, these people paying for these miserable tracts of land some £3 or £i a year. It v/as always a matter of wonder to mo where the money came from ; dressed as they were in rags, and living in the way I have mentioned, where they found the money to pay the rent was to me a puzzle. But, as Mr. Tuke knows, a great number of these people were in the habit of going to England during the harvest time, and bringing back sufficient to pay their rent, Now I will give but one instance out of many that I might to show what a deplorable con- dition the people of the western portion of Ireland must be in,.. The late Colonel French told me that he had £1,500 a year from his land, and that be had 1,600 tenants, [and that was in good 50 Imperial and Colonial Pdrtner^hip in Kmi,jmtion. times ; but when bn.l times came. I need hardly toll you that the condition of ono-half of tlio people on such estates ns Ins was that of absolute starvation. Now, my lord, some time since I felt that the question of eraisration was likely to bo a very important one for Ireland, and that it was quite certain that a very larRC amount of onv people would endeavour to better their position by },'oing to America, and I went there hist September chielly with the objec of informing myself about it as a field for emigration. Well, 1 went over some thirty-two or thirty-three states and territories ot North America ; I sa- the entire of Canada, from the Sangany Biver to Lake Ontario, and tlieuce went to Manitoba, and anotlier portion of the north-western territory. Now, as I must on this occasion confine myself to emigration to the British Colonies, I shall only say that Ihe Irish would be very ungrateful if they did not feel i^ndebted to the United States for the homo it has atlorded to so many thousands of their race. I found many of my country- men in the United States of America prosperous and happy. (Hear hear.) While there I visited the Census Office in Washington, and one of the chief officers told mo that thero were at present sixteen millions of Irish blood in America : that is a pretty good proof of what a home the United States has proved to so many of my poor countrymen. As to Australia, I should bo ungrateful if I did not say a word in favour of it also, for I owe a great deal of my own prosperity, snch as it is, to successful emigration to that Colony. I am happy to say one of my relations who went there made a for- tune, part of which he left to rae-(laughter)-and to that Colony I owe a "reat deal of ray independence, such as it is. ±Te made his fortmie and contributed to mine by the singular circumstance ot getting a paralytic stroke-(laughter)— and there was about it this extraordinary fact of a man lying on his back and doing nothing for a great number of years and making a fortune. After bemg u long time in Australia he was realising all he could, and was about comhig home, when unfortunately for himself, because nothing could compensate for loss of heaWi, he got a paralytic stroke, and he was obliged to lie down on his back in b'slog hut in a wood, and could do nothing; and about that time, wh-n he thought himself to be a ruined man, the gold-fields were discovered, and everything he had in the way of sheep and other belongings came to be worth ten times their former value. Now, I will tell yon what I saw hi Manitoba and the north-west territory, and I feel a diffidence in speaking about it when I feel that a great many of you know a great deal more about it than I do. But there are many licrcwho do not know as much about it as I do, and it is for them that I Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 51 fipoak. Before rroin?; out thcro I applied to Sir Alcxanaor Gait for iiifonuatiou and introtluetion, when ho Htronfj[!y atlvised mo to ^'o to the north-west territory and judge for myself.' Ho Haid, " I shall bo happy to give yoii introductions, but when you go there hoar, see, and inquire for yourself." Well, when I was in Canada, from the Governor-General down to the humblest official I mot there, each evinced the greatest anxiety to afford rae every facility to obtain information. I went to Manitoba to judge for myself, and I wont over the whole of it and a portion of the north-west as well. But, as many at this meeting nro iiwaro, Manitoba is a very small part of the north-west territory of the Dominion of Canada, some- thing like 810 miles long and 210 miles wide, and the greater portion of the good land has been already taken up, and what remains of the best lands is chiefly in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company and the Railway Company ; but beyond that there is a vast amount of territory of almost boundless extent. I .stood on and looked with wonder at the great wheat belt which begins in Manitoba and stretches to the Rocky Mountains, 1,000 miles long and 300 miles broad. Beside it there were those mighty grass lands whicli up to the present have afforded nourishment only to the $)uflalo, and, as you arc aware, Sitting JJull and his 3,000 or 4,000 followers have subsisted on buffaloes for many years past. Now, these grass lands are something like four or five times the size of Great Britain and Ireland put together, so that we could be fed in this country six times over from the north-Avest territory, if we did not raise a sheaf of corn or raise a head of cattle in Great Britain. Now, the Canadian Pacific Railway is soon likely to be completed from the Rocky Mountains to Thunder Bay, and that will tend considerably to the development of that mighty territory. (Hear, hear.) I had the advantage of ceeing some of tlie old settlers amonst ^ them— the Selkirk settlers— who came out with liord Selkirk in 1803. I saw many who had come out as cliildren, and Jilso their children's children ; and I saw the agents of Hudson's Bay Company, whose fathers came out before them, and I never beheld a healthier people. Their sons and their daughters were about the finest people I ever met, and the later emigrants who came out told me that they could bear the cold in Manitoba, some- times as low as 40 degrees below zero, as well as an English winter ; iu some instances they told me even better than they could the English and Irish winters. I saw many of my own countrymen who came out there in middle life, and they told me that they were as healthy in every respect as they had ever been in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Well, I met some physicians also, and 52 Imperial and Colunial l^artaershlp In Einlcj ration. they told mo the death-rate was considcrahly under what it was in the United States, and that the amount of practice they had was exceedingly small. Another pleasing feature is this, that cold as the north-west is in winter, throughout nearly the Avhole of it it is. prohibited to sell wine, beer, or spirits. (Hear, hear.) And the doctors told me that, although they dreaded the results very much when that law came into operation, yet on few occasions had they been obliged to order alcohol for their patients, and that they were infinitely healthier under the total abstinence principle than they had been under the former state of tilings. Lately, when part of Manitoba was anxious to be joined to the north-western territory, the latter made it a condition that the former should agree to exclude the sale -^f liquors ; and before I left Manitoba an Act to that effect passed the Legislature in that part of the State. I examined the nature of the laud, and it seemed to me a magnificent soil. Part is of the loes formation, same as the basin of the Mississippi, and for forty years they have been taking wheat off it at the rate of thirty bushels an acre, without any diminution whatever, and that, too, without manure, in the productiveness of the land. The grass is equally good. This region was the native home, and almost the last home, of the buffaloes ; thousands of these animals now roam wild over it ; what feeds the buffaloes will feed other cattle as well. At the time I was there there were some farmers who tried the experiment of breeding a superior description of cattle from the buffalo, and with every prospect of success. Of Canada, we in Ireland have very great reason to speak in terms of very great gratitude, for during the recent distress a very large sum was voted by the Dominion Government for its relief. It was applied by Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, who disposed of it to promote the sea fisheries, I am happy to say with the best results, as some of the people have been able to remain at that occupation in conse- quence, which they must have otherwise abandoned. The paper which I have in my hand, and whicli has been already alluded to, contains the generous offer which the Dominion Government has made to Ireland, and for which I, as an Irishman, feel under cousiderablf f^l^ligation. I speak perfectly independently ; I have no interest whatever of any kind, directly or indirectly, in the matter ; and I have no hesitation in saying to those of my country- men who are disposed to emigrate that, without intending to detract fiom other Colonies, I uo not think that they t..tu find a more profitable field for their labour than the north-west territory. They would there have this advantage, amongst others — which is Imjjerial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration, 53 The and very great to Roman Catholics, as most of thorn are, antl as I am myself, and one that they have not in the United States— that is, if they choose to educate their children according to their views, they get separate grants for that object. In the United States of America, on the other hand, there is only one system of State education ; so that persons who may have an objection to sending their children to the Government schools, or wish to combine their religion with secular education, have not the advantages I have .alluded to, which they have in Canada. (Cheers.) Mr. F, W. Stone : I feel quite sorry to trouble you with a few observations I have to make, as they will be on the subject of Canada, and nearly every speaker to-night has praised Canada to such an extent that I, being a Canadian, hardly like to say any- thing at all about it. I should not have sent my name up to the Chairman had I not been one of Mr. Torrens's constituents. I heard him say that if a vote of money was proposed in the House of Commons with the view of furthering such a scheme as this, he would not bo at all' afraid of voting for it and meeting his consti- tuents to take their decision upon his vote ; and as I happen to be one of them, I wish in a humble sort of way to say that he need not be afraid at all. One point that struck me was the way in which the Agent- General of South Australia threw cold water on the whole plan. He told us that Mr. Torrens's Paper riiight be called a paper for transporting the people from the Vvest of Ireland and planting them in Manitoba, and that in South Australia they only want two classes of people —domestic servarts (who are wanted everywhere), and people not over 45 who have a little money. Well, I understood Mr. Torrej^s referred to people who had no luoncy o}: ?-ll, iiiid Lhc grcVu idea underlying his proposal is that the Government should advance sums of money to enable people who could not otherwise move from their country to emigrate to Australia, the Gape Colonies, Canada, or some other Colony, I care not which, so that they might be able to earn a decent living for themselves. I have some considerable acq'iaintance with the rural districts of England, and I have induced a certain number of per- sons to emigrate for their own good ; but I have always found the greatest possible difficulty in getting them to move because they have an intense fear of crossing the ocean, and very little money to pay for the passage of themselves and their families. It is of little use to tell them lliat they are only going across to mix among their own people, for they say, " Oh, we have got no money." I am talking of agricultural labourers, Avhc Avork really hard all the week, and who only thus make enough to provide a very poor 54 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. I living. In England in a general way there is plenty of labour to be done of one sort or another ; but most people who have to do with land in this country know that in the winter they are obliged either to reduce wages, or to tell one or two men that they are- unable to find work for them. Now in the Colonies this would not be the case, as the hard-working labourer or small farmer would make enough during the busy time to keep himself and family if a slack time came ; and it is for this reason, among others, that I think this scheme ought to be regarded from a serious point of view, and that it is no part of the duty of any Agent-General, or any other agent of the Colonies, to throw cold water upon it. I think it is- a pity that so much comparison of the merits of one Colony with another should have been introduced in the course of this debate ; and, although I did hear that Canada voted a considerable sum of money for the distress in Ireland, and I am proud to hear they did so, still I believe it ia perfectly true, and I am anxious to say so, that Australia did contribute to a greater degree even than Canada to that distress which existed in Ireland. So many have stated what I intended to say about the great difficulty the really poor find in emigrating, and the advantages of emigration to Canada, that I will only say that I know many agricultural labourers who have gone out without a penny, and have worked hard and done extremely well there. Some of these men are now farmers, not with five or ten acres, but farmers of from 100 to 300 acres of their own land. Mr. Hall said it was no use trying to bolster up emigration and to give .noney to it ; but I would point out to him that this scheme of emigration only advocates giving a sum to bo secured by a first mortgage on the recipient's property,, by means of which advance, after ten years' work, he could become absolute owner of his 160 acres, and I think it is certain that this would greatly stimulate his endeavour to become such owner. (Cheers.) '' Mr. Frederick Young : In the very interesting speech which the honourable member for Watcrford has given us, he commenced his address by saying that he neither advocated nor condemned emi- gration, and yet I think that everjone who listened to him will come to the conclusion that he was a strong advocate for emigra- tion. At all events, I appear before you myself as a very strong advocate for it. (Cheers.) It was perhaps almost inevitable that in the very eloquent and masterly address which has given occasion to the discussion of last Tuesday evening and also this evening, tlie eminent lecturer should give it a little turn in the direction to wiwch our thoughts arc particularly pointed at this moment, with refer- Imperial and Colonial FartnersJivp in Emigration. 55 ence to the great sister country of Ireland. But I must confess that I have been a little disappointed, with some few exceptions, with the way in which the discussion — I more particularly refer to that which we had last Tuesday — has embraced the whole ques- * tion. (Hear, hear.) I thhik myself it should have been taken up on broader, more general, and more national grounds. (Hear, hear.) Now it is a maxim in political economy that the three ele- ments of national wealth are "land, labour, and capital." It is the glory of this country that she has a fabulous amount of all these three elements in her possession. She has an enormous amount of land, labour, and capital within the boundaries of her vast dominions ; but the problem to be solved is— and a great pro- blem it is — how properly to unite these three great elements. (Hear, hear.) I am one of those who for years have contended that we should inaugurate a national system of emigration, in order to put on the land, of which we have such a superabundance in every direction throughout the civilised world, the surplus popula- tion which I also am one of those who contend we have in this country. (Hear, hear.) Let me say a word as to the way in which the subject may be treated under the title which Mr. Torrens has given it in his address — namely, " Imperial and Colonial Partner- ship in Emigration." I will give you one or two suggestions that have occurred to my own mind in reference to it. First, I thinks that with a great country like England, possessing such an enormous Colonial empire as it has, one of the first points to be attended to in our national system of education is, that in all our elementary Board schools our youth, both girls and boys, should be so taught as to become thoroughly acquainted with every portion of every part of the Colonies of Great Britain. They should have placed before them every detailed information possible on the sub- ject ; so that when they grow up to be men and women, if by chance that they are in the position rendering it desirable for them, in their own interests, to go to one or other of the British Colonies, it shall not be with them — as many know who have experience in sending out emigrants — that our people are usually most ignorant and uninformed about the places where it is sug- gested they should go to, and they are afraid even to undertake the voyage — that they do not even know the difference between going to Canada and to Australia, except in the cost of the journey. This, then, is one of the modes in which I should suggest that the part- nership should bo commenced. (Cheers.) Then I would go auother step further and suggest this plan as one of the means of equalising the cost, which is one of the great difficulties connected 5G Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Knugrat'wn. with going to different parts of the Empire. Many years ago I proposed, and I would repeat the suggestion this evening, that there should be a system of tickets which should bo purchasable at Government establishments founded on a great national scale — in which, for the sake of preserving an independent idea of self-help, each adult emigrant shall pay £2, and this payment o t £2 per head shall entitle the holder of the ticket obtainable for this sum to be carried to any part of the British Empire. My idea would be that, suppose it cost £5 to go from England to Canada, the emigrant should pay £2, and the Home Government and the Canadian Government the balance, in fair and equitable proportions — whatever that may be considered to be. Each would have an interest in the emi- grants moving to where they were going, it would therefore be a wise and sound national investment to pay the balance. Again, if it cost jBIO to go to the Cape, the emigrant wishing to proceed there at his own option, should pay the same sum of £2, and the £8 balance be divided in equal and just proportions by the motlier- country and the Colony to which he goes. Once more, if it cost £15 to go to AustraUa, the emigrant would still pay only £2, and the balance should be equally adjusted between the mother- country and the Australasian Colony to which he sails. Each would get, I contend, a great au vantage in that emigrant moving from the home country to the Colony to which he is transplanted. I thoroughly believe in the view that the emigrant hiraself is of great commercial and practical value. It has been estimated by those who ought to know something about it, that he is of very considerable monetary value, and in this way such a system would absolutely repay very largely everj^ year the cost both to the home country and the Colonies. (Hear, hear.) There are also other ways in which the practical means of what may be called a part- nership in emigration wt'ch our distinguished friend on my right has brought to our notice might be carried on, which might bo equally advantageous, and come within my own notions as to the perfecting of any plan of that kind, but it is hardly necessary to put them before you this evening. All I contend for generally is, that it is a most extraordinary thing that this country, having a surplus population, should do so little to transfer it to other parts of the Empire where there is a want of population — that there should not be a thorough understanding between the Colonies and the mother-country, so as to transport the surplus labour here to the Colonies that want it. Sometimes Canada wants it more or less, and sometimes New Zealand, Australia, and the Capo ; and I say supply them as thoy want it, not with what they don't want, but i Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 57 give them that which they do want at the proper time, and in the proper mode, and that can only be done by a thoroughly national system, whose " head and front " would be in the mother-country. Until our statesmen can take upon themselves this question on broad general grounds we shall always be making failures of every kind, and disappointments will unavoidably occur, and enormous loss of the best material of the nation's progress will ensue to the Empire. One word with regard to the United States. I am not one of those who have the slightest jealousy of that great Eepublic ; on the contrary, I have relations of my own who are natives of that country, but I do say that I am an Englishman before all. We have got such an enormous territory throughout the earth that I prefer its being peopled by my own countrymen rather than let- ting them go to another country. The United States is another country, however much I may sympathise with or admire it. We need not feel any jealousy about it, but we may lead our people who desire to einigrate in a particular direction, by pursuing a wise system ; and in my opinion we have hitherto grossly failed as a nation in directing the stream into iLose channels into which it ought to flow. (Loud cheers.) Mr. Stephen Bouunk : I very much rejoice that the preceding speaker has called our attention back to the real subject matter of the address before us. (Hear, hoar.) I confess to having shared the feelings expressed by more than one speaker, that, able and interesting as the lecture was, Mr. Torrens had taken but a limited range of the question in his view. I think at least our considera- tion requires to be directed now not so much to the special claims of Ireland, nor to the special facilities offered by Canada, as to the general question of the advantages to the United Empire of pro- moting emigration. (Hear, hear.) It was my privilege eighteen months ago to bring this subject before the Eoyal Colonial Institute, and I took it from the point of view which the mother-country held, that is, to the growing necessity we labour under of promoting emigration in the interest of the mother-country herself. Those views did not perhaps receive the full acceptance which I expected at the time, and the intervening period with the temporary revival of trade which has taken place has drawn to a certain extent discredit upon them ; but I think from the tone of the public press s,nd the trade reports as to the condition in which the country now stands, that those views will soon be more readily accepted than they have been before. Tiie recent rapid revival of the trade which we had lost led many to think that we should find in the trade of •our country quite sufficient employment for the surplus labour, the I I 68 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. surplus population, and tlio surplus capital which exists, without any necessity for employing them in the colonisation of the distant portions of the Empire. I candidly confess that I for one should very much regret if trade in our country were to become so prosperous as to put us altogether off the scent, and so leave undone the work which I believe is our duty, that of spreading English knowledge and civilisation over the entire world. (Hear, hear.) But we must not look upon this question with the limited view which was afterwards presented-that is, of sending out our squalid and poverty-stricken neighbours. We must not forget that it is the interest of the colonists now to obtain the best class of people that they can receive ; but our views of the relations between the two must take a far wider range than that. What we want is to spread abroad the knowledge amongst all classes who hve in this country that they have to fulfil the great destiny which lies before them, and that it is not a hardship, but the embracing of an opportunity the Almighty has placed within our reach, to assist in colonisation, and to be looked upon as a glorious object to promote civilisation. (Hear, hear.) We want to feel that with the illimitable resources of theEmpire in land, the growth of population at home, and the wealth which we have acquired, that it is our duty, and our privi- lege as well, to fulfil the purposes for which land was created and for which money is given. It is my duty every day to pass under the portico of the Royal Exchange, and my attention has often been drawn to the motto which adorns the front of that building, " The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." I say that it is in the fulness of this earth, and in utilising the fulness of the other portions of the Empire, that one end of our greatness is to consist. (Hear, hear.) It is not simply of the labouring population that I speak, but I believe that we are all destined to till up the great void in this world.' (Hear, hear.) And although in Ireland, in provincial towns and in other places, there may be a necessity for helping to remove the pressure of poverty and distress amongst tho lower 'strata of society, I believe we are more concerned in the removal of numbers in the higher classes than in the lower.' What we want is, to make it felt that those who have brains and those who have capital, as well as those who have tho labour of their hands to bestow, should turn their attention to changing their homes. I will not call it a hardship, as it has been spoken of. It may be hard for the bride to leave her home and to break up its associations, if it has been one of happiness and comfort ; but, if she is going to a bright and ha] with pity. Ha it may be trying one, er Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Kniigration. 59 rreat to break up all former connections ; but, if they are going to a better and happier home, one where they may have more freedom, with a future before them more permanent and full of blessings greater than those which they are leaving at home, such ought not to be the feeling with regard to changing our country. Our cir- cumstances are such that we have too many in the labour market here— especially the clerical element, which every merchant and banker will admit ; and, if we find a large portion of the intelli- gence and brain labour of our country exhausted, not in the pro- duction of wealth, not in increasing what will add to the happiness I of others, but in gaining for themselves a larger share of that which has been already created by others, then some relief ought to be found for them. What is the effect upon the public welfare produced by the promotion of so many companies of joint- stock jobbing operations, of all that trading which consists in simply passing from hand to hand without ever assisting at all in the work of conveying from the producer to the consumer ? What is this but simply a waste of power, instead of a seeking to do that which will add wealth to the country, or a spreading of that happiness which it is desirable to afi'ord to all ? I think we ought to feel that such is the duty imposed upon us, and that the Almighty has placed within our reach the means of fulfilling this great mission. I am glad to hear Mr. Young speaking of emigration being of such value to the countries to which it goes, and it is for this reason that I regret the large diversion of this emigration to the United States. I feel that the value of human life is not sufficiently appreciated ; it ought to be deemed just as valuable as animal life in an economical sense ; and, when we look upon the increase of the human race as we do upon that of the animal race — as both being an element of property, there can be no doubt at all that we shall see that laboiu- is productive of more and more good than it has yet accomplished. Labour by the human race is capable of producing more than it wants for its own support, and all the surplus may go to the acquisition and accumulation of wealth. Therefore I believe that every life we sacrifice in this country, because we crowd our people in unhealthy dwellings, and from the want of proper sanitary arrangements in our houses, is a loss that may be readily avoided by judicious emigration. Much of the present misery amongst our striving people is due to the mode of life pursued in their dwellings, but particularly to the great waste, alluded to by Mr. Blake, which goes on in the consumption of alcoholic liquors ; and I believe that every life we thus waste is just so much destruction of valuable I 60 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Eniif/rafion. property, because you thus destroy the means of creating wealth uud of promoting the health and happiness of others. Then, I think we should come to the right understanding of these ques- tions, and of the necessity of enforcing upon the Government, what it is their duty to do, in assisting by every moans in their power the promotion of emigration. I think that when we have so many poor amongst us the Government should undertake to remove some of them, but I also think that whenever assistance is given to those who go from this country, such help should become an Imperial charge upon the property to which they may attain. Whenever help is rendered to a man who has not the means himself, and it becomes a charge upon the wealth ho may eubsequently acquire by this means, I believe that you will promote his independence, and that a large proportion of the benefit con- ferred will be returned. It may be that misfortune or ill-health may cause some portion of the assistance thus rendered to be lost ; but what is that compared to the loss which now arises from the poor-law support of a superabundant population ? I believe a large portion of the expenditure would come back and so furnish the means for advancing to others who afterwards wished to go forward. But the main source of our emigration should not be composed of the lower classess only, but also taken from the <;lasses above them. I do not mean to advocate that those who have money fairly employed hero should go away with that money, and thus denude the market at home ; but even if they did, surely our country is rich enough to afford the loss of the capital which the emigrants would thus take with them ; for if they go forth they leave room for the improvement of the condition of those who, now destitute at home, will slip into their places. Wo should not have the present destitution if some of the better class were found to thus set the example, for we should have some of the lower classes rising up to a higher position than that which they now occupy. Thus there would be a general promotion of welfare from the top down to the bottom. With these views I feel we owe a considerable ay^iod my advice on this subject. T would say tlioy are good, industrious, and persovcriuf,' persons, but not altogether the best workmen, which go out to our Colonies. Feeling myself that a good hivo now and then ought to throw out a good swarm, and that wo in Great Britain are growing and increasing— and I shall bo much astonished if we have not about 34,000,000 people inhabiting England, Ireland, and Scotland on Sunday night next when the census is taken— and, as wo arc increasing each year by 400,000 over the emigration, death, and other rates, I feel myself that God has given us the English Colonics throughout the world to people, and that it is our national duty in every way to promote emigration. I cannot but feel tliat, when I saw in the pubhc newspapers this morning (March 29) that 3.5,000 emigrants had landed in New York, and that half a million are expected to arrive there during this present year, we have not done our duty in directing a very large number of those people to the Colonics and preventing them from probably becoming aliens. When you look at the different Colonics you say, what inducements do they particularly hold out ? I am not saying anything about the land offered by the Colonies, I think it better not ; neither woiild I recommend any man going out straight from England to settle at once on any of the land so offered. You have the English farmers who have gone out, and our Society has also sent out a good many of the middle- class, and a still larger number of the humbler classes, and we find that 'a groat many of them, when they get there, have to unlearn English farming, &c., before they can learu the Colonial systems ; and"beside that, a great deal of their prido in English ways must be taken out of them first of all before they get on to the land. In all cases of assisted emigration I find it better to give the money right out. I think it is a bad policy to expect the money back, because in many cases where it has been expected to be returned I have seen great disappointment felt by benefactors who have lent them money. I feel, then, it is better to give these emigrants a sum of money to assist them. It is a bad policy to ship them out in times of famine ; you want to laud them in the Colonies wlien tliey can bo of use directly to get their daily bread, and when they would be a blessing to the country. We all know that Canadii has not reaped so much advantage as was expected in helping emigrants, because in a great many instances directly they got over to the Dominion they secured free railway tickets to Detroit, and the Yankees got the benefit of it, whilo the Canadian Govern- ment was very much offended. Canada will always possess great attractions, especially as timid travellers know that from Ireland to Imper'ud and Colonial Partiirrship in Emigration. 6n [ would jut not Feeling , a good rising — JOO.OOO ly niglit ig each H, I feel out the ■ way to in the ligrants 3cted to duty in lies and Li look at bicularly d by the -!ud any .1 any of Live gone middle - 1 we find unlearn systems ; lys must iind. In ic money e money ed to be tors who Lve these policy to sra in the ly bread, all know pccted in !ctly they D Detroit, I Govern- 5ess great Ireland to Labrador they are only five and a half days out of sight of dryland. My feeling with regard to Australia and emigration is that when wo consider that each emigrant is worth about £200, not with such a sum of money in his possession, but value of the man himself, and when we know that the old people do not go out, I am an advocate for sending three or four families together, and then they help or- another. They are a little strange when they first get out there, but the colonists show them very great sympathy. I find when three or four families have joined together that they prosper better. I think we have to thank the Royal Colonial Institute for having ventilated this subject thoroughly well. About twelve or fourteen years ago we had a conference at the Westminste. Palace Hotel on Emigration, when some excellent suggestions were made (and various objections were also put forward), amongst them that the Imperial Government should subscribe a third, the Colonies a third, and the emigrants themselves a third. I have heard it suggested that England sjiould find the ships, the Colonies the food, and the emigrants tho kit, and other things connected with it, their outfit, &c. ; but as we are called upon to-night to give our own observations, I can only say from experience that the best means for accomplish- ing the objects in view is by forming emigrants' clubs tliroughout Great Britiau. Now with respect to the class of persons who go away from Fatherland, tho best colonisers are the Germans ; they go out in vast numbers from their emigration clubs in (rermany, and I find that immigration clubs are also formed m Wisconsin, &c., where a number of families club together, and have been able to supply most of the money for the purpose of aiding out relations; the consequence is, that the Germans as a rule are better furnished with the principles of helping to send out their own people than tho English. For my part, I am in favour of the cstabHshment of such clubs (Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, &c.), and that the Im- perial Government should subsidise them. I feel convinced that, unless wo do so, our efibrts will bo unavailing to colonise, because we know it is so very much cheaper to go to Now York than it is to the Australian Colonies. Only to-day in sending a person to New York I took her ticket to Harwich, thence to Antwerp, and she fomid the voyage a great deal cheaper than she could go from Liverpool to London. I feel myself that we ought to have State aid, and I would suggest that if every emigrant going out to the Cape, Australia, or New Zealand should bo subsidised to the amount of £5 from the Imperial purse, or €2 to Canada, it would be very little out of the Imperial exchequer in the course of the year, and that then the Colonies should find a certain sum of money, say (il Impjvid find Cohmud P.trfnrr.di'ip in Kinhjinti >:(. almost, if not quite, nu equal proportion, luul that tliou tlio friondrt of those Uving in the Colonies, as well as the emigrants thomsolves, would I think fiiul the rest. I can only hope from the kind of answer which we heard in the House of Commons the othor day» that there might be such a thing as a subsidy eoming from the Imperial purse, and that this most necessary help will bo carried out. I foci coulident, if each emigrant were subsidised, that our English Colonies would then bo in a much more nourishing state for tilling the millions of acres now vacant than they aro at tho present time. (Hear, hear.) The llev. W. PACKuiiKiK : My Lord, Ladies, and Clontleraen,— The point I should like to refer to is, How can W(> get the very valuable information given within these four walls into tho posses- sion of the right set of people ? As a member of that constituency which returned the hon. gentleman, tho reader of the paper, to tho House of Commons, I shall feel a deep regret if the fruits of this discussion cannot reach into the district of Clerkenwcll. The subject is of great importance to the people of that neighbourhood. The staple trade of Clerkenwell, watchmaking, has been all but annihi- lated by American competition. As one of the local clergy, I know many instances hi which good, sober, skilful artisans have not done a full week's work for the last three years. But information upon this subject not only needs conveying to the industrial classes of the community, it needs conveying in a particular and careful man- ner. I imagine that the whole question of emigration is looked at with a little suspicion by the industrial classes, and if emigration is set before them as a piece of political expediency, they will not accept it as such. If, however, you can show to them that it is a natural and legitimate means for relieving a temporary pressure, it assumes altogether another form to their minds. (Hear, hear.) I am a member of a Committee appointed to confer with certain loaders of trades-unions, and the question of emigration has once or twice arisen at our discussions. My present feeling is that tho leaders of organised labour would not take it to be their duty to re- commend a wholesale scheme of emigration to their constituents. The subject is not popular with them ; but there is one form of advocacy which may lead them to accept it with enthusiasm— put emigration to them upon the ground that it is the duty of the great English nation to reproduce itself wherever it can, and they will give it worthy consideration. I rose to make one request to the reader of the paper, and to those gentlemer w^io have contributed to the store of most valuable information which Las been accumu- lated here. It is that you will come and help this question by dis- Lnp'.i'ud nil I Ciiloiiiiil Puitiicr.iliip in Einhjrai'uni. (>5 cussiug it with us at our next conforcnco. I bIiiiII bo greatly obliged if goutlomou who may be williii-,' to take part in Huch a raoctinp: will give mo their namen. It would advance the qucBtion very consider- ably to get it diHCUBHcd by competent authorities. We liave the Bubject Hot down for our next conference, and I will undertake to Hond duo notice of our meeting to any hero who would feel intorcHtod in being present. (Cheers.) Mr. Labillieiie : My Lord, Ladies and Gentlemen,— My chief reason for desiring to say a few words this evening is to bring for- ward ideas which are not my own, but which were expressed before this Society some years ago, more than once, by one of its founders and most valuable members, whose loss wo must all deplore. 1 speak of Mr. Edward Wilson, whose memory and ideas, I trust, will long bo retained among us — (hear, hear) — how Mr. Wilson in dis- cussing this question laid very great stress upon the value of the individual emigrant leaving the United Kingdom to whatever part of the New World he raiglit go, nnd I have taken down from the reports of our proceedings (vol. v. p. 12, and vol. vii. p. 2(58) what ^Ir. Wilson said upon the subject ; for the view is one which should always bo borno in mind whenever this question is under discus- sion. Mr. Wilson remarked that he wondered whetlier (lovernment calculated what the dead loss of 50,000 or 100,000 jjoople every year from the Enghsh shores really meant. If we annually sent away that number of cattle, sheep, or pigs, a payment in money or money's worth would be insisted on as a matter of course, lint being men — much more valuable than either cattle, sheep, or pigs — they were ignorantly given away to the United States or elsewhere without any thought of payment. There was an important point in dealing witli the whole question of emigration, as to what is the real money value of a man. He (Mr. Wilson) had often tried to elaborate the price of a man, and he had lately come across a paragraph from an American State Paper pricing a good, healthy, vigorous man — the average emigrant — at exactly £10G 18s. 4d. (Much laughter.) Now, I have ventured to carry this calculation still further. Sir Alexander Cialt, in the very able Paper which he gave us early this session, told us that within fifty years something like 4,COO,000 of people had gone from the United Kingdom to tlir United States. Now, multiplying this number by Mr. Wilson's value of a man, I have arrived at tlio result that we have made a gift to the United States worth the very modest sum of I'GGG, 060,0(51) lyd. 4s. (Laughter.) Well, whether that does or does not approxi- mate as to the value of tlie population which we, liiive bestowed upon the United States, within the period mentioned by Sir Alex- 66 Imi)erlal and Colonial Partnership In Enw'ration. ander Gait, there is no doubt whatever that we have made a most magnificent present, worth miUions of pounds, to the United States, in the shape of population. (Hear, hear.) We have helped to build up the American Union within half a century to an extent which wo can scarcely estimate. If the population which lias gone from this country to America had been diverted to the British Colonies, what a very different position would those Colonies bo in at the present moment! (Hear, hear.) If only one solitary hundred thousand of those people had gone to South Africa ! (Hear, hear.) In fifty years, bv the most infinitesimal system of emigration, wo might have placed a hundred thousand extra European people in South Africa ; and then the whole of the difficulties which have embarrassed the mother-country, which are still embarrassing her, and which, I fear I must say, are likely to bring discredit upon her '—(hear, hear)— would never have arisen. The hundred thousand people placed in South Africa would have prevented all that ; and the British population of South Africa would have been able to deal with the native question, as the people of New Zealand have been able to deal with their native question : and this country, in- stead of having to pay a very largo amount of money for South African wars, would only have spent a mere fraction of that amount in sending this hundred thousand people to that country. In emigration, perhaps the most serious difficulty to face is that of organisation. If an extensive system of emigration were to be started from this country, either by the Imperial Government or Colonial Government, or by co-operation between both, in order to ensure its success, an organisation would be required in the Colonies of a nature which would demand a considerable amount of local know- ledge, as the details would have to be very carefully worked out. You must avoid one thing, ami that is sending too many people to any one place, and over-duttlng the Colonial labour markets— (hear, hear)--otherwise you would have outcries arising, and reports coming back, as they sometimes do when there is a temporary over- supply°in any narticular quarter, which would spoil the whole cause of emigration in the minds of the people both at home and m the Colonies. If anything like extensive emigration is attempted, the greatest care will at all times be required in working out the details hi the Colonies themselves. Before I sit down I should like to say something with regard to what fell from Sir Arthur Blyth. I think what he said, or the intention of it, has been very much mistaken. Borne gentlemen who followed in the discussion seemed to think that the Colonies are over-nice as to the emigrants they like, and as to those they do not wish to have ; but 1 tliiuk that the > a most tl States, to build it which )ne from Colonies, 1 at the hundred ir, hear.) ition, wo )eople in ich have isiiig her, upon her thousand bat ; and n able to md have antry, in- for South t amount iitry. In is that of be started : Colonial to ensure jnios of a cal know- rked out. people to uarkets— nd reports rary over- holo cause nd in the npted, the the details like to say Blyth. I very much ;on seoracd rants they ik that the Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Em'ujration. 67 people of this country oaght to bo much obliged to the people of the Colonies for being particular as to Avhom they will have in their country, because the good relations between the mother- country and her Colonies depends very much upon the Colonial populations. Now, we don't want any element of discord, we don't want an clement of disloyalty in our Colonial populations ; and there is a considerable danger from the introduction among them of a certain class who have gone out from Ireland, and who have caused diffi- culties and done their best to stir up ill-feeling between the United States and England — the class from which springs the Fenian movement and those recent movements which we have heard so much about. I believe that the people of the Australian Colonies do nor want that clement in their population. We all know it is a matter of fact, and we cannot shut our eyes when dealing with this important question to the fact, that the Irish vote has been a ver}' troubhnome element in the United States, and recently it has been of considerable trouble in the Colony of Victoria, and also to some extent in New South Wales ; and that is one reason why the Australian Colonies adopted the system which prevails when they assist emigrants out from this country of requiring that they shall be brought out in proportion to the populations of these three Kingdoms. Tliat would appear the fairest arrangement, ensuring that the Colonial population shall be made up, as is most desirable it sliould be, of a proper proportion of people from each of the three Kingdoms"; and no Colony should have too many people from one portion of the United Kingdom brought out to it by the expenditure of Colonial money. (Hear, hear.) Mr. C. Pfoundes : The eminent statesman who has with benevo- lent intention addressed us, and the distinguished colonists and others who have spoken, gave us but scanty detail on one or two points of vital importance. A little proof is worth much argument, and one should be in possession of information as to how the people it is intended to benefit will receive this measure. It is also most important that the most deserving and most destitute should be those who first of all receive relief. Our Kanak friends are notoriously good at a bai'gain, and ve cannot blame them gettin"- all they can ; they would exercise right of choice, and take those very famihes that we most need at home, and get as much as they can of the expense paid out of the Home Treasury. I am in pos- session of information, from good authority, as to the feeling the project will most probably arouse in the minds of the moderate yet quick-witted Irish peasant. I remember the scones when R. Groves & Sons, in 1810-9, sent many shiploads of people out of I I G8 Imi)crkd and Colonud Partncrshqi in Emhjrat'ion. Irelaiul, a large percentage never living to reach the land of promise. I also, when a midshipman in the Victoyia, had experience of deck loads of persons we took from the overcrowded Immigrants' Home, Melhourne, to distribute along the coast. I as an Irishman have seen something of Irish of all classes, in Ireland, the Colonies,. America, and other places. It is known to some of those present that since my recent return to the old country, I have spent some time and trouble in efforts that I am certain will ere long be successful, to establish a centre of information (on purely pubHc spirited, and not private grounds), where those who seek to go abroad may learn where and how they can best make out a pros- perous future— therefore I am interested simply in this. If we would alleviate the great Irish distress, let it be in x\o half-hearted manuer ; let the manner of the gift carry with it that which, if it does not arouse a feeling of gratitude, will at least for very shame sake cause the suppression of hostile or ungrateful feelings. Let us not continue to drive tens of thousands annually to alien shores, whilst all our Colonies are sparsely peopled, and let the people choose their future home. Acclimatisation is another difficulty. But, above all, let us who are joined together in the Colonial Institute under the motto of United Empire, let us at least not forget that it is our duty to keep in view the unity and integrity and consolidation of the Empire. Mr. Thomas McIlwraith, Premier of Queensland: ^ly Lord, Tiadies, and Gentlemen,— At this late hour of the evening I did not intend'to address this meeting, but as I am called upon I must say a few words, Had I discussed this question, I hrd no intention of speaking about Queensland alone, which I represent here. I consider that the debate has gone too much down into particulars by individuals speaking too much in de';ail of particular Colonies while the great (lucstion has escaped the attention it deserved. I had not the pleasure of hearing Mr. Torrens speak this day week, but I have had the pleasure of reading the article in the Xlnetcenth Ccntxmi, and my first impulse was to write to him and offer him my congratulations for having in a style so vigorous, demonstrated the practical solution of the difficulty coimccted with over-popula- tion here and want of population in the Colonics. Throughout his article, and I understand also the address he has delivered here, the main idea is not that Canada or any other Colony wants population, and that we are in a difficulty at the pres(mt time from over-populated districts in Ireland —both of these facts may bo taken for granted ; the main idea ^Ir. Torrens tries to enforce, and one that I have been trying to get recognised as long as I have Imperial and Colonial Partnenldp In Kmif/ration. 69 be been connected with politics, is, that it is the duty of the Britisli Oovernmcnt to direct emigration from their shores — (hear, hear) — to that idea I promise that I will give every assistance myself, whether the emigrants go to Queensland, or Canada, or to any other of our British possessions. I know perfectly well that as soon as the English Government take into their hands the emigration from their shores, that the thing will he so gigantic a success that all our possessions will henelit thereby. The representatives of the different Colonies should join with Mr. Torrens, who is a practical man, and a man having great influence with the present Govern- ment, and aid him in forcing upon the Government a recognition of their duty in this respect — a duty too long ignored, We know well there are political objections to tackling this question in this country. Conservatives and Liberals alike all shunt the re- sponsibility, but it is a question which cannot be shunted much longer. Over-population in the United Kingdom and emigration to foreign countries are both great and increasing evils that demand a remedy. This cursed Noluntary system of emigration, by which be thoroughly understood by deputations to Ministers and other- wise, and tile difficulty with the Government will vanish. Kemember, it is not going to cost them anything. Every penny they spend on it will be repaid them. I am sure of it that tho whole thing can be worked out in a manner that will repay the British Government. What wo want tlunu to say is, that if you should put such a practical proposition before us we are willing to find the money. That will be the first step gained. If they do that, we are quite prepared with a practical scheme. J'higland may have to advance a million or two at first, all of which will be ultimately repaid. But even were it lost, which is not at alllikelj-, it would be well spent money if it diverted British emigration from foreign to Colonial shores. The gentleman who spoke just before me gave some statistics which were rather ludicrous, but it is plain common-sense to put it in the way he did. Wc thoroughly under- stand the value of colonists, of the labour thus diverted to the TTnitod States ; Mud I look with shame at the British Government allowing the wealth of this country to flow to America, as it has done hitherto. An argument which appeals to self-interest alone Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration. 71 may not be of the highest class ; but it is sometimes weighty, and is valuable here. Australia, with a population of something over two raillioua anJahalf, consumes within 15 per cent, as great value of British goods as the United States of America, with a population of fifty millions. That fact speaks for itself, and demonstrates the loss the nation has sufi'ered by not diverting emigration to her Colonies. I only rose for the purpose of enforcing Mr. Torrens's idea, which is that we ought all to act together in order to get the British Government to take up the question of Imperial Emigra- tion, and when they act I am satisfied that all the Colonies will join with thenr. It does not matter what Colonies, because we will all join — (hear, hear)— and I shall bo glad to see them take up the scheme, whether Canada, the Capo, or Queensland may be the first to reap the advantage. (Cheers.) Mr. E. W. Murray : My Lord, Ladies and Gentlemen,— I feel at this late hour of the evening no apology on my part would bo received by this company if I were to occupy its time long in dealing with the subject which has been discussed. I should have liked, notwithstanding all we have heard about diverging from the main questions us to localities and particular Colonies, to have brought the subject of South Africa before this meeting, but it is much too late to do so. I do not agree with the gentlemen who have spoken in depreciation of speakers bringing the advan- tages of the Colonics with which they were specially acquainted prominently into the discussion. It seems to me that this is the only way in which the Colonies can get understood in England— (hear, hear) — and it is the only way in which the ques- tion can be broadly dealt with. (Hear, hear.) I read the able article of the lecturer which appeared in the Nineteenth Century. I have for nearly twenty-eight years resided in South Africa, during which period I have devoted a large portion of my time to the consideration of the land question of the country, and to the value of emigration from Great Britain to it ; and I should have been delighted to be able to say something about the article in the Nineteenth Century, and adopting it as a text for bringing before you a great many specialities of South Africa which it would be well for the people of England to understand. (Hear, hear.) There is so much in that country to be dealt with, there is so much to be done with civilisation, by emigration to that country, so much that it would be impossible for any man to deal with the subject fairly, and to exhaust it in the ton minutes allowed each speaker. South Africa has sucli special claims u^on the mother-country, and claims for a share of the emigrating people of l^higland, as no other Imim'ml and Colonial Partncrshi}' in Emirjration. Colonies have. Notwitlistaiuliiig that every colonist who has spoken has deprecated the discussion going beyond what he is pleased to call the main question, and condemned others who have made a speciality of their own particular Colony, yet I noted that there is not one of them who have sat down without bringing before the meeting most prominently the Colony each represents— (hear) — and the last speaker could not wind up his remarks without telling you what Australia could do for England.and how much more it has done for England than ever America did. (Laughter.) I was surprised to hear Mr. Tuke say he did not care how many British subjects had emigrated to America. Now, that has always l)een a sore subject with mo. I desire to see the spread of this Empire by ■emigration, by sending to our own possessions tlie men who want to work upon the laud, that they shall continue to be loyal subjects of our own Sovereign ; and, when they want to invest their labour in the production of wealth, that they shall invest it in the Queen's dominions, and so contribute towards the prosperity of a united Empire. (Hear, hear.) I admire many thuigs written by I\Ir. James Anthony Froude, but I do not accept all his conclusions- cither those he arrives at as a traveller, politician, theologian, or historian. I have not adopted his view that Henry the Eighth was a model husband. (Laughter.) Yet I accept that quite as much as I do anything he has written about South Africa. (Laughter.) There is, however, one paper of :Mr. Eroude's very valuable to any man who is considering the subject of emigration in the broad sense in which Mr. Torrens is dealing with it, and that paper is to be found amongst his short papers on great subjects, on British Subjects and British Emigration. (Hear, hear.) He has defined clearly the value of sending the surplus population of England to our Colonies, and settling them upon lands belonging to the Crown, and has shown how much the people are tlicmselves bettered, and how much better it is for the nation, that England shall keep this colonisation in her own hands instead of driving her people to America and forcing them to become aliens. (Hear.) Mr. Frederick Young did good service by drawing back our attention towards the larger question of colonisation, and putting before us a sclieme by which the surplus labour of England could 1)0 brought to bear upon the Crown lands of the Colonies, and that, too, without much cost, either to the Imperial or Colonial Governments. It is a pity that you had not thought of this years itffo, before the Crown lands of the Colonies passed out of the hands of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) If you had dealt with the Crown lands as Crown lauds should have l)oen dealt with before Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emipration. 73 you you went scattering broatlcast over the face of the earth imitations of your own Constitution, yon would have clone a great amount of service to your Empire. (Hear, hear.) I feel that I must not allow myself to be tempted to po further into th. general question. I hope an opportunity will occur some day wl'on I may be able to deal with and bring the subject of South Africa in refrence to emigration before you. But I will say tliis, tliat when I saw the title of Mr. Torrens's paper to bo " Imperial and Colonial Partner- ship in Emigration," 1 began to think how much I would like to be present to hear it, in order that I might understand from it what he proposed that the partnership should be ; because I would bind myself to show, if I had t^o tim^ that almost all that is necessary to enable South Africa to carry a largo population of British emigrants without much assistance from the Imperial Government, is that she should be allowed to deal with her lands as she acquires them, just as she pleases, > . that tlio Imperi;!l Government should not interfere with her affairs of territorial acquisition in the way it has been doing of late to prevent unproductive lands being occupied by British labour. Wliat the people of Africa want to do is not, as a friend behind me seems to think. When someone proposed tliat we should civilise the natives by sending out a stream of British emigration to settle in South Africa, he said, " Yes, to exterminate them." (" No, no.") No ! that is what England has been doing for years. (Hear, hear.) She has been allowing a bad state of things to go on without heeding or earing, or else she has been interfering to prevent the colonists from dealing fairly with the natives. It has always been one or the other. (Hear, hear.) The English Government has been <;ontinually interfering and preventing the Colonies carrying out the Colonial native policy which is calculated to civilise and elevate the native population, and which Colonial Governments under- stand, and the Imperial Government do not understand. (Hear, hear.) Colonial Governments in South Africa pursue a policy which advances the native in civilisation, makes him useful to the State, teaches him to be industrious, and enables him to hold pro- perty in his own right. No government in South Africa under British rule seeks to exterminate the natives ; their labour is too valuable. (Hear, hear.) And I think that the vast problem for Great Britain to solve is what should be the value of the native races to the world ? (Heai", hear.) I say that I think this the greatest problem England has to solve ; and I say, putting that iiside, that South Africa cannot afford to do without the native races. (Cheers.) Some years ago I passed over a tract of country 74 Impcr'ud and Colonial Partner sh'tp in Emhiration. which was then a wilderness, autl did not contribute one smgle i)cnuy towards cither the work of civiUaatioa, to the wealth of tho country, or to tlio comfort of natives or Europeans. This hind during the last seven years, through a particular industrial resource having been developed, has given employment to 0-10,000 natives, who never worked for a day's wage m their lives before— (cheers)— and there has been introduced upon that laud, in addition to native labour, other labour, too, which together has been tho means of enabling the people there to export a product of tho value of 3J. millions per annum. This product is in the shape of diamonds, and tho value of the parcels sent through the post-office alone to England and Europe is just what I state. (Hear, hear.) The muni- cipal revenue of the principal town upon that land is £25,000 a year, and it lias paid a mihion and a half of money per annum for the carriage of ]hitish manufactures across from Table liay, Tort EUzabeth, East London, and Natal, which goods have been consumed in the diainond-lields of South Africa (for that is the place of wliich I am speaking). And that is just one little portion of the vast continent of South Africa, throughout which country there are undeveloped resources which, if the country were properly populated, would give employment to tho men of this country who are starving for the want of it, would make the Em])ire stronger, and bring the native races within the subjection of the Crown, and prevent the continually recurring native wars. (Hear, hear.) Either let Great Britain herself pursue the policy of colonisation which Mr. Torrens advocates, or else cease meddling, as far as South Africa is concerned, with the land and native questions of that country, (Hear, hear.) Mr. Dennistoun Wood : My Lord, Ladies, and Gentlemen, — At this late hour of the evening I shall endeavour to compress my remarks into a short compass. The Agent-General for South Aus- traha. Sir Arthur Blyth (and he was foii^wed to some extent by other speakers), cast censure upon Mr. McCullagh Torrens's address in two respects. Sir Arthur Blyth said that Mr. Torrens had dealt too exclusively with tho subject of emigration from Ireland and with that of emigration to Canada ; but Sir Arthur Blyth, as it seemed to me, overlooked the nature of tho (piestion which Mr. Torrens brought before this meeting. The subject was not emigra- tion generally. (Hear, hear.) The subject was an Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emigration— that is, a scheme under which Great Britain should do one part and the Colony or the (Colonies do the other part. Where there are partners each must contribute something. Now, as far as 1 am aware, tho proposal which has hiiju'.r'ml and Colonial Partnership in Kniifiration. 75 emanated from the Dominion Govevumontisthe only case in which a Colony has proposed to enter into a partnership with Great Britain in promoting emigration. This being so, was it not natural that Mr. Torrens, instead of discussing the question theoretically, should deal Y/ith that practical proposal which is now before us ? (Hear, hoar.) That, I think, fully explains the reasons why Mr. Torrens dealt principally with emigration from Ireland to Canada. I would say, also, if any further justification is required, that the state of Ireland itself is a sufficient reason why wo should look to emigra- tion in the first instance from that country. (Hear, hear.) If two Englishmen, two Scotchmen, and two Irishmen happened to be in a boat which was <;apsized, and the Englishmen and Bcotchmcn were good swimmers, while the Irishmen could hardly swim at all, I should think that if a boat came to the rescue it would pick up both Irishmen before it tried to pick up either an Englishman or a Scotchman. If after one Irishman was picked up, an Enghshmau or a Scotchman were to say, " It is now my turn to be picked up,"' the rescuing would say, "Unless those two Irishmen are picked up at once they will go to the bottom ; when we have saved them then we will pick up you afterwards." (Laughter.) Sir Arthur Blyth almost went out of his way to disclaim any idea of a partnership being entered into between the Colony he represented and the Im- perial Government as regards emigration. He said that " the people of South Australia will bring out just as many emigrants as they require, when they require them," and yet he found fault with Mr. Torrens for not discussing the question of emigration to South Australia. I may hero refer to one remark of Sir Arthur Blyth's. He said that in South Australia two classes of emigrants Averc especially desirable ; that there had been great fluctuation in the demand for other classes of emigrants ; but that there was and always had been a steady demand for single females. He did not explain why that demand should exist ; but I think it would bo well and useful to consider why that demand exists. If a particular class of labourers arc sent out, say masons, to a Colony, those masons do not die off for many years, and before they die off it may be supposed that sons will have sprung up who will succeed to their fathers' business and will carry on the work of building houses. Therefore, if you have once sent out a thousand masons they would continue to go on building houses year after year, and there might be no great demand for a further supply of masons. Why is it that this class of single females who go out to become domestic servants requires to be supplemented year after year with fresh importa- tions '? Why, it seems to me that there is only one solution of the 7ti IniprrinI and Colotiuil Partnersliip in Kmiut we find in all the Australian Colonies that the Governments, or Acclimatisation Societies subsidised by the Governments, have introduced another class of animals, such as salmon, deer, and game birds. Why were those animals not also introduced by individual proprietors ? AVhy were they introduced at the expense of the Governments of the Colonies ? Simply because, as it is generally impossible for an individual to retahi a property in animals of that kind — animals ft'fa: naturcB — there is no sufficient inducement for individuals to import them. Now. if you had slavery in a country, you might Iinpcrldl and ('oIdh'kiI rartitfrshq) in Kin'njral'um. 77 woll leave the supply of labour to capitalists and persons wishinfj to employ labour. When tlicro was slavery in tlu; West Indies, it was not touud ni'Ces.>.ary to have votes of money to keep up the supply of negroes there. It was a most iniquitous trallic ; but it was, however, governed, like other trades, by the laws of supply and demand. If the owners of plantations wanted labourers, they W(U-e supplied by the slave traders, wlio brought negroes from Africa. But slavery, thank God ! no longer exists in our Colonies. And, if a capitalist who \vants labour imports immigrants, he cannot by any eifcctual means retain their services ; ho has no property in them. How is he to reimburse himself for his expenditure in bringing them out ? lie can do so only l)y paying tliem lower wages than are paid to men of the same class. What is the con- sequence ? Why, that these labourers whom tlie capitalist has imported, seeing that they are getting less wages than their fellow- labourers arouud them, and forgetthig that the man who imported them has been at the expense of paying their passage out, will not work heartily and with a good will, and they seek the tirst chance of absconding. Therefore it has always been found impossible to rely for the supply of the Colonial labour market upon the exer- tions of individual capitaHsts. The introduction of a proper supply of immigrants has in almost all our Colonies been at one time or other treated as a matter of national concern. It is for a like reason that Government— local or general, as the case may bo — is entrusted with the making of pubhc roads ; because it is impossible that any system could ever be carried out by which each man should make the portion of the road in front of liis own house. Therefore I say that those protectionists in Victoria do not under- stand what they arc talking about when they say that there is anything contrary to the true principles of Free Trade in the Colonial Government importing labour into a Colony. (Cheers.) The Noble Chairman : I do not propose to enter at any great length into the matter we have had under discussion ; but, before we separate, I would like to say a word or two in connection with what I think I may safely call one of the most interesting subjects which can engage the attention of Enghshmen — the question of emigration generally, and also in its special relation to the Colonies. Now, exception has been taken by two or three speakers to the fact of Mr. Torrens having in the consideration of this question alluded more particularly to Canada and Ireland ; and we have heard some expressions of regret tliat other gentlemen have somewhat narrowed the discussion by confining themselves almost exclusively to dealing with the question as it atfects the particular Colonies f 78 InqH'i'utl and Colonhd J*iirtnrrHhip in Einhji-dtioii. which they represent, or in which tlio;- are interested. ]Jiu, as far as I am concornod, I do not roj^n-ot this at all ; bccauso if those {.rnntlcmon had refrained from considoriii},' the question of emigra- tion with rcforonco to the Colonies with whoso viows and wants they wore best acquainted, wo should have lost a great deal of most valuable information. In dcalinj,' with this subject at present, it is obvious that the thouLjhts of any speak(>r must of necessity turn to that particular part of the United Kingdom from which at this moment emigration is much needed— namely, the distressed districts in the West of Ireland. It is natural also that he should especially allude to Canada. You will remember that Canada has just submitted a definite proposal to England ; and, as far as I am aware, it is the first tangible effort which has yet been made to formulate to any extent a scheme of emigration to be assisted and supervised botli by the mother-country and a Colony. Our atten- tion is very naturally attracted to that portion of Canada to which frequent allusion has been made— namely, Manitoba -because in the first place, it is practically a newly-discovered country, and, in the next place, it offers peculiar advantages to emigrants. A rail- way is about to he constructed through that country whicli would give such abundant employment to agricultual labourers and small farmers, that any man who choso to work would have no difficulty in maintaining himself until such time as he should begin to reap the fruits of the soil which ho cultivated. There is another reason, perhaps, why Canada especially comniends itself to us, and that is, that many of our countrymen, and probably many of those here present, have visited that country, and, knowing something about it, would prefer it as a field of emigration to Colonies more remote, A man may visit Canada, see something of it, and return in a few months, or even weeks, whicli is impossible in the case of the more distant Colonies. Canada is unfortunately a very fascinating country ; I have been a groat deal there during the last ton or eleven years, and I find the people so good and the society so charming, that I seem naturally to gravitate towards the country, iind am constantly revisiting tlio same spots. That is really a matter of regret to me, for if Canada and the Canadians had not l)ccii so charming, I should no doubt by this time have visited all ,,uv other Colonies, which, however, I fully hope and intend to do. Several goutlouien have alluded to the climate at Manitoba. I think, perhaps, for Irish emigrants it might have some little draw- backs. It is certainly somewhat different to what they have been accustomed to, and they miglit at first be somewhat astonished, and even a little dismayed, at the cold and the ice-bound earth, and i Imperial and Colonial l\irtnfr{*y v liealthy for a considerable length of time. I was vor> i..flai( I o hear from Mv. Wilraot that the poorer classes of Irishm n w" •> doing well in tho Cape Colony, and, indeed, I am sure we huvi .ijl boon much gratified by tho in- formation we have received respecting this district. As far as I am concerned, I was not aware that the Cape Colony was so rich a country as it is. If, however, Mr. Wilmot desires to induce emigrants to go to tho Capo, I f^.hould advise him not to say too much about employing them to civilise tho natives. Judging by past experience tho emigrants might feel a little uneasy lest tho natives might civilise them off tho face of tho earth altogether. Mr. Frederick Young made some very valuable and practical re- marks upon this subject of emigration. It is, as he said, of the first importance that young people, as they grow up, should have greater facilities for becoming better acquainted with the Colonies than they have now. Thoy sliuuld be taught that what have Intherto boon considered great distances aro practically so no longer. They should be made to understand that emigration means merely going from one part of their own country to another part of it. The money question is a difficult one. When we como to the question of what contribution the emigrant himself should make to the oxpouso of his removal, and how much should bo contributed by the mother-country and tho Colony, we touch upon a compli- cated subject. In fact, the whole question of emigration bristles with difficulties which can only bo overcome by constant discussion and interchange of opinion. Mr. Young has suggested that the emigrant should pay £2 tov;ards the expense of carrying him to any Colony to which ho may wish to go, and that the balance should bo equally divided between the mother-country and the Colony. The chief difficulty I see in that would be that it would manifestly be to the advantage of the department dealing with this matter to send the emigrant to the nearest Colony in order, as far as possible, to diminish the expense. Among the larger questions which have been touched upon, and which I shall not pursue, is the "tariff," involving the whole subject of Free- Trade and Protection. I imagine our Colonics think we are some- what idiotic for being free-traders, and we consider them more or •1^ »{) Imperial and Colonhd Partnership in Enihiratim. less insane for being protectionists. We both aaUcro to our own opinions, and both enjoy a fair amount of prosperity. But, al- tliough in tallying about emigration we may enter by side issues. the question on Free-Trade, in reality it has nothing to do with tlic subject of emigration, which we are now considering. That the (luesLion has been treated from a rather narrow point of view by gentlemen specially interested in certain Colonies is of no real conseauence. It has all to do with the great problem, which is, how to bring the labour which wants laud to the land which wants labour^ As a rule, I am strongly opposed to the interference of the State in any matter which may safely bo left to private enter- prise ; but I think emigration is a matter of such vast importance to the United Kingdom, that not only is the State justified in giving every possible assistance, but is in duty bound to do so. Private enterprise is not sufficient. However well conducted private com- panies may be, they are speculative concerns, having their own ends and objects in view, viz. to make money. Emigrants not un- naturally look with a certahi amount of suspicion upon them. They would be more willing to seek to better themselves in other countries if they felt that the State would see that all engagements entered into by them and for them were properly carried out. Their welfare on shipboard and on arrival in the Colony should be properly cared for. It can never be an agreeable thing to be com- pelled to leave one's home ; and, wliere it is a necessity, those who hove to do it should be spared as much pain and suffering as pos- sible. To this end they should be assisted to take out their wives and children, histead of having to leave them to become a burden on this country. Of course there is a certain difficulty m the fact, that whereas the Colonies are very naturally anxious to get the very best material they can, we are equally anxious to retain that best material at homo. It would be curious if this were otherwise, and it is a perfectly legitimate desire on both sides to obtain that material most suited to their wants. But it is not necessary that our interests should clash, and I conceive it possible tliat, wliilo doing the best we can for ourselves, we may mutually aid each other I regret very much that, taking into consideration the vast importance of the subject, the Governments of this country have not taken it in hand long ago. I think it a great pity that our Colonies did not reap the benefit of the vast amount of emigration that has taken place to the United States. I say this without the slightest feeling of enmity or jealousy of the United States, for the people of which country I entertain feelings of the greatest respect and affection. Remarks have been made to the effect that the Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Eiuigration. 81 Americans are not last frioucls of this country. That is a matter I do not desire to enter upon. It is beside the question. I will only say that such is not my opinion. Of one thing I am very certain, that the United States entertain feelings of higher respect and esteem for Great Britain, or rather the British Empire, than for any other nation. I believe there is a strong feeling towards this country, and I would venture to remind yoi: of an episode in, I think, tlie Chinese war. On a certain occasion our soldiers and sailors were in difficulties, and the commander of a United States vessel took upon himselt the great responsibility of risking the lives of his men in coming to our assistance, and helping us in a quai'rel which was none of ]iis, with the phrase that, after all, " blood is thicker than water." That may be considered a small and isolated fact, but it shows the truth of the gallant commander's remark, that " blood is thicker than water." I confess I fear that great difficulty will be experienced in persuading our Government to take up this question, and it will probably necessitate a constant hammering at them for a considerable length of time. ]3ut I have not the slightest doubt they will eventually give way, and I am sure they will have no cause to regret so doing. Their only regret will be, that they did not deal liberally with the whole question long ago. I was particu- larly struck with one remark made by Mr. Torrens at the com- mencement of his admirable address. He said, " I hope one day to see a closer union of all who speak our tongue. I would gladly renounce and sacrifice any object of personal ambi*^^ion if I were permitted to advance that object in any degree." Now that com- mends itself to me as a very noble sentiment, and one which I most thoroughly endorse. 1 hope to see a constantly growing desire for a closer union between the mother-country and her Colonies, for I believe that the future happiness and prosperity ol both Great Britain and her Colonies is largely bound up with, and dependeui upon, such union. The prosperity of the English- speaking people in all parts of the world, and their power for good must of necessity depend, to a very great extent, upon the existence of some mutual centre of combination which can only be the natural heart of the Empire — the mother- country. What the power of the British Empire now is there is no reason for me to point out ; but is marvellons to reflect what may be its future power if the colonies and the mother-country maintain a close and steadfast union. I venture to think it would become the greatest Power the world has ever seen, and a Power which could work only for the good of the whole world. The people of ]*aigland will never undertake any war of aggression on F / 1 a !|i 82 Imperial and Colonial Partnership in Emicjratiun. the Continent- it would be ludicrous to think of such a thing. We do not require to do so to accommodate our increasing popula- tion. Oar expansion goes in the direction of our Colonies. The Colonies are so situated that there is no likelihood of their ever embarking in aggressive wars. For many, many generations they will be occupied in clearing their own land and developing their own resources. As far, at any rate, as we can look forward to, there seems no possibihty that the power and influence of the English-speaking peoples will ever be used to the detriment of human happiness. Their influ'^nce and overwhelming strength cannot fail to be a blessing to the whole human race if properly exercised. Therefore, from a humanitarian point of view, the future of the United Kingdom and her Colonies, with which the subject of emigration is so closely connected, is a matter of vast importance. From the narrow point of view of the advantages accruing to the British Empire this question of emigration between the Colonies and the mother-country is full of interest, and it is well worthy of consideration in a still more restricted sense and looked at merely as conferring great benefit on the United Kingdom, It cannot fail to be advantageous to us to relieve our- selves of a surplus population on the verge of starvation. I believe that some such scheme as that which we have had under dis- cussion would not only confer the utmost benefit upon the emi- grants themselves, but would in the long run prove most economical to this country by reducing the large contributions she is noAV called upon to make for the support of the poor. I will now delay you no longer than is necessary for tlie expression of our hearty tharks to Mr. Torrens for the excellent address which has led to tliis most interesting, instructive, and profitable discussion. (Loud cheers.) Mr. ToRKENs, M.P. : I am sure I speak the sentiment of every- one in this room when I propose that we should vote our cordial thanks to our noble chairman. (Cheers). Lord Dunraven's name is well known to all of you who mark the course of pohoical and philanthropic discussion in this country ; and it shows, I think, the tendency of gravitation in pubhc opinion that, representing, as I am confident he does, the feelings of an important section of the aristocracy, and representing, as I do, the middle classes of an important portion of this Metropolis, we find ourselves in this room in absolute and perfect union on this subject, never having been engaged together in any public work before. I liope we may be permitted to co-operate frequently and thoroughly in similarily useful work, and I am sure that the manner in which you have • / F Imperial and Colonial Partnersliip in Emigration. 83 received him to-night, and the kindness with "which you have listened to what 1 have laid before yon, will he the best encourage- ment to him, as it will be to me, not to grow weary in well-doing. (Hear, hear.) I have no complaint to make of the criticisms bestowed on the suggestions laid before you the other evening ; on the whole I consider the balance greatly in their favour — (hear, hear) — and cheerfully forgive the few cavils raised for the sake of the many words of commendation wc have heard, of the general scope and practicability of central and Colonial partnership in emigration, I have listened with the greatest interest to the ex- periences of one colonist after another which some in this room seem disposed to think too particular and narrow. I own that I rather lean to what may be perhaps miscalled the narrow view. When I was a young man I loved to deal in general theories about our own country, and the rest of the world into the bargain. Like the physician of Voltaire I had three cures for every disease, and now I am older I find many diseases for which I have not even one. I am only too thankful to find any specific that promises a practical cure, and I have lost gradually my faith in universal and uniform theories. I understood from Mr. Bourne and Mr. Lubilliure that they were all for trying what could be done with the thick end of the wedge. I am in favour of the thin end, for I liave always found it uncommonly difficult to get in the other. (Laughter.) The Minister for Queensland was especially eloquent and interest- ing in his discourse, and I am quite content to act on his advice and put our experiment of joint action to the test when and where we can. It is not so easy to do extensive good as thpse may imagine who seldom ])ractically and perseveringly try. Sejveral years ago, as Mr. Stylemau Herring reminds us, we adopted a iarcre scheme of emigration, and held our first meeting at West- ■inster ; but, as far as general contribution by the Treasury is concerned, we are not much u carer to the realisation of our hop^s. It' you could get Parlian;ent to agree this year and next year to do whal; is necessary for Qu^enslund and Canada, for my part I should lie only too glad ; and I cunle^s to you, and those who through the JPress hear what uae says, that I have great faith in the spirit of Sionourable emuiaiion amo^.g Colonies which would be beneficially excited when two r , iJiei number have shown a new and bet^ei way j of increasing the strengtii of their population, and winch in due ' time wcnld lead o^h^^rs tc follow their example. Queensland is ' the youngest of the si, ter states, but she shows that she is waking up to the duty o^ makiiig an effort, and making oifers of i^ome kind in regard to the new state of things ; but as yet they come only i 84 Imperial and Colomd Partncrshij^ in Emipration. in official form from the maturcr wisdom of Canada. Whatever conditions Queensland annexes, she must bide the result. Let her devote to the good purpose whatever she thinks she can afford, and we shall ask our Govcrinnent to do the like, so that out of our abundance Ave shall not prov3 slack or wanting. But with regard to our assuming the part of questioning each Colony as to whether it wants more or less immigration now or next year, I disclaim that as fatal to all good understanding between the mother-country and the Colonies. A gentleman who attended here when Sir Alexander Gait gave his lecture— I mean Mr. Anderson— thought fit the other day to question the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies in the House of Commons regarding the nature of the despatch from Canada, and the manner in which it has to be dealt with, and put certain constructions upon its terms with a view, it seemed, of warning Parliament not to give any sanction to the oifcr made by Canada. I should not have silently acquiesced in this adverse proceeding ; and, had it been necessary, I was prepared to put other questions calculated to set the matter right in the eyes of the House ; but I was saved all trouble by Uv. Grant Duft' re- plying that Lord Lome's despatch had been referred to the Irisli Government, and that the matter was in course of negociation ; and that, speaking for the Colonial Office, he did not put that construc- tion iipon the terms of the despatch which Mr. Anderson did. (Hear, hear.) I thank you very much for the attention you have paid to my suggestions, and I have the lionour to move our hea^'ty thanks to Lord Dunraven, and to testify to him our sense of the advantages which the cause will receive from his presidoney amongst us. (Loud cheers.) ?'