r/ t ■■ ., s. ,..;__ .;_-.- -. •„ ..-, 1 ! • • ;■■'■' . • '■"■!' ■ . ^.., SEVATE REFQEM -' .'•>^^; \ .1 t . 1 1 -> " - DELIVERED BY C. Berkeey Powe , Esq., IVI. U. A. IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, TORONTO, V '• ' r MARCH 21st, 1899. ■' , ■■■■ '■'■■■,, > ■ 1 . . . ■ • OTTAWA : ^ Ottawa I'rintini; Company (Limitkm)i -■ , • ' ■ - { aiul s NFosgrovc Strccl. < '■?■*'■', ' ' - - ** » ' : ( lEPIRTE MEF©MM S PEIEIGH DELIVERED BY C. Berkeley Powell, Esq., IVl. 1-. A. Moved by the Attorney General (Liberal), seconded by Mr. Ross, ([liberal) — That in the opinion of this House, the provisions of the British North America Act, respecting' the constitution and powers of the Senate of Canada are at variance with the well understood prin- ciples of responsible government and should be brought more into harmony with those principles by an amendment to the said Act, substantially providing that if the House of Commons passes any Bill and the Senate rejects such Bill and fails to pass it, or passes it with any amendment or amendments to which the House of Com- mons shall not agree and to which amendment or amendments the Senate adheres, the Governor General may, by message, upon the advice of his Council, convene a joint sitting of the two Houses, at which the questions in controversy and the final passage of such Bill shall be decide'^ by a joint vote of the two Houses without debate. Further, that it is the opinion of this House that the British North America Act should be so amended as to provide that Sen- ators should be appointed or chosen for a limited term of years only and not for life, as at present, Moved in amendment by Mr. Whitney (Conservative), sec- onded by Mr. Matheson, (Conservative) — That all the words of the Motion after the first word " That " be struck out and the following substituted therefor, " this House desires to express its hearty appreciation of the great service ren- dered by the Senate of Canada, with reference to the Yukon Bill, and the Drummond County Railway Bill." Moved in amendment to the amendment by Mr. Carscallen, (Conservative), seconded by Mr. Colqiihoun, (Conservative) — That the follovvinj^ words be added to the amendment, ''And deprecates any change in the constitution of the Senate by which the equilibrium between the several Provinces of tho Dominion of Canada, as estabhshed by the British North America Act, may be disturbed." The question is on the amendment to the amendment. MR. C. BERKELEY POWELL, member for Ottawa, spoke as follows: MR. SPEAKER. It is very extraordinary that a resolution of such vital importance to the Dominion of Canada as this is should be introduced into the Lej^fislative Assembly of Ontario. The question of any measure of reform affecting the Senate of Canada is clearly none of our affair. It was not made an issue during" the last Provincial campaign. We have no mandate from the people of Ontario whom we represent here to do so. But as the question is before us now, I must say, Mr. Speaker, I do not un- derstand why so late a date has been selected for its discussion. It is almost the closing days of our Session and a most inoppor- tune time. It is the wrong time. It should have been brought before us earlier, if at all. We have been assembled here since the first of February and now it is the twenty-first of March. For the first three weeks of this Session we accomplished practically nothing ; our daily sit- tings were extremely short and now we find ourselves in the midst of hard work. We are between the new Brewers and Dis- tillers Bill and the new Revenue Bill and thus I am inclined to believe this resolution stands between the devil and the deep sea. (Applause). We are at present having troubles enough of our own without inviting trouble from outside on a subject which is clearly none of our business (applause). I cannot see why we should waste our time on this matter except that the Government here were ordered by their fellow Liberals at Ottawa to proceed. Some very able speeches have already been made on this question by those Honorable Members who have preceded me, Mr. Speaker, perhaps none more so than the magnificent speech of the Hon. Minister of Education, delivered with all the old- time vigor and earnestness which I have so often admired in the past, yet it lacked sincerity through being founded on a false hypothesis. It reminded me of a beautiful and sumptuous castle erected on a foundation of sand — for his text for Senate reform was based on the assertion that the Senate as at present con- stituted is proving itself to be a block to prevent the progress of the reform party. The tribute to Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier was the Hon. Minister of Education's supreme effort of eloquence; and he was most eloquent. He spent a jjrcat deal of time In la\ ishinj^^ praise upon the loader ol" the Dominion Clovernment. He char:ictcrized him as the j^'rcalest statesman Canada had yet produced and the ^-reatest statesmai; of his day. It" the Hon. Premier of Canada could but have heard this euloj^^ium oi' himself he would have smiled one of his sunny smiles. And if he could but have heard the Hon. the Minl.^ter of Education's views on Senate reform he would have smiled a smile that was childlike and bland. (lauj,'hter). I^ecause Sir WilfVid Laurier's views as expressed at a smokinj,'' party — *'a veritable jamboree " (loud laughter) held in Montreal at the Monument National early in January of this year were totally at variance with the views on Senate reform advocated in the past by the Liber.il party, ad- vocated also, Mr. Speaker, by the Honorable the Minister of Hducation as well as by those speakers to your ri^ht who have preceded me. The Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier on chat occasion broached reform by asking' what are we K'oing to l\o with the Senate and someone present shouted "abolish it." The Premier said he was not now in favour of abolishing- the Senate. When he was a young-er man he held different views regarding- the Senate than he did now. Then he was more in harmony with the views of their young Chairman of that nig-hl and perhaps mig^ht when his (the chairman's) ag-e have favored its abolition. He was not such a radi- cal now as when he was youngfer, His radical ideas had very lar^ ely changed with age and mature experience in the arena of politics. As he had advanced in years his ideas had become more conser- vative, not in the narrow but the broader sense of the word. (.Ap- plause.) And these ideas now made him believe it was not a pro- per or wise thing- to abolish the Senate. If he were in the posi- tion of his friend Hon. Mr. Marchand, Premier of Quebec, he would endeavor to abolish the Senate, or Upper House of Quebec. But in a great country like the Dominion of Canada, having- an immense area, and a scattered and rather small population in com- parison, with different races and different relig-ions, with so many varying- conditions, and requirements and passions, he be- lieved the Senate was a safeg-uard and a necessary and proper one. He could not now favor its abolition, nor could anyone who re- flects deeply upon our present position and surrounding's. He also considered the election of a Senate a mistake and could not ap- prove of it. (Applause.) We have an elective chamber in the House of Commons, which voices the views of the electorate, he said, and to elect the Senate would simply mean to duplicate that part of our Governmental system. Therefore Mr. Speaker, I sub- mit that the Premier of Canada favors the nomination of Senators as at present and that he admits it is the wisest mode of appoint- ment of such a house in our grtj^t Dominion. He alst) admits (Applause.; that the representation of the Senatois is fairly distributed over the Ieiij,'th and breadth of this land as arranj^^ed by the terms of Confederation. In other words he would not chanj^e the British North America Act of i7, defininj^ the Senate in an) shape, man ner or form. But he would "reform" the Senate ami practically destroy all the wise provisions of its constitution, by the followinj; sinj^ular proposition, or to borrow a choice expression of the Can adian iVemier's, the followin},', "senseless scheme." and here, Mr. Speaker, I will read a quotation from his speech previously re- ferred to : "What I propose," said Sir Wilfrid, "is that in case of a conflict between the two Chambers there shi>uld be a joint vote of the two lej^i>Iative bodies and the majority of the two taken to- g-ether should decide the question. That is the reform which 'WK* submit to the people of Canatla." Just think of that, Mr. Speaker, for a measure of Senate re- form, which, if enacted in the I3ominion Parliament, as constituted at present, and approved of by Her Majesty, would leave the Sen- a'e without power to check any injudicious or wrongful leg'islation. The Honorable Member from Brockville (draham. Liberal) preceded me ; and in his very oratorical speech advocated the total abolition ot the Senate as a proper reform. I must sav, Mr. Speaker, his views seem to me more honest and sensible than the idea of maintaining^- the Senate shorn of its powers by reason of this joint vote makinj^ it a wholly useless and costly portion of our Governmental system (applause). There is little doubt this chanjje of front on Senate reform by the Liberal party has been brouj,^ht about by certainly one if not more of the Provincial Governments declining to acquiesce in the resolutions now being- debated in this Leijislature. These Pro- vinces were broutHit into Confederation only by reason of the safe- g-uard alTorded them by reason of the Senate as constituted by the British North America Act. The Province of Quebec for instance, Mr. Speaker, when entering- Confederation was to have a fixed number of sixty-five members ot the House of Commous, the other Provinces were to vary according to population having the Province of Quebec with this fixed and determined unit. Each unit at the present time represents about twenty-two thousand of population. But in order to safeg-uard her interests, and more particularly the interests of the French portion of her citizens, their language, their relig-ion and their laws ; the Province was given, twenty-four Senators, the same number that Ontario was given, the same number the Maritime Provinces were given. The power vested in these Senators was the element which brought about Confederation- As one in touch with French Canadians, 5 as one having in my own constituency, as well as in Russell, Carleton, Prescott and other Counties nearby, a lar^e number of those excellont people, I say they are not in accord with and I believe are totally opposed to any such retorm of the Senate a^• is proposed. The Honorable l^remier of Quebec at the last recent meetinjj of tlie Lo},'i*lature there, refused to be coerced into passing any n ersure of Senate reform. Quebec saw in the Senate the best means o( safej^'-uardinjc her rij.fhts as defined at Confederation ; and Quebec declined to be made any party to this new and " senseless" refurm - and I go further and say, speaking for myself, that I doubt very much if the Premier of Canada, the Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, has the courage oi his convictions as stated in Montreal last January, or that he will introduce the mea- sure of Senate reform he there enunciated, — a measure calculated to destroy the very foundation of Confederation upon which our Dominion was built. (Applause.) And if he does do so I do not believe it will be carried out. I do not believe Her Majesty will be advised to take the responsibility of interfering with the Senate and rendering it powerless to check injudicious and wrongful leg- islation. Her iNlajesty's advisers declined to interfere with the Senate at the request of the Hon. Alexanc'er Mackenzie in 1874, and gave their reasons, which 1 will explain to you later on this evening. Now Mr. Speaker, with regard to the Senate and the Sena- tors of Canada. As representing the City of Ottawa in this House - the Capital of the Dominion, where the Senate is erected, and where the Senators live for many weeks and often months of each year, I believe 1 know something of this magnificent structure and something of its personnel. No more capable body of public men exists in Canada to-day than the Senate of Canada. (Applause.) I know all of them by sight and reputation and most of them personally. They are without question a splendid body ol men. They all represent men who have been successful in their various walks of life. It is easy to familiarize yourselves with their life histories. It is set forth fully in the Parliamentary (iuide, who they are and what they are- Each honorable member present has but to reflect upon the per- sonal character and worth of the Honorable Senator who repre- sents his constituency, I feel sure he will know him to be an honor- able and exemplary mm, I feel sure when I tell him the average Senator is equal to his own Senator in character and worth, that he ought not to attribute to that august body any sinister motives. He cannot but feel that the interests of the country will be wisely and judiciously safeguarded. And yet, Mr. Speaker, it is popular in certain quarters to joke about and belittle the Senators. Certain newspapers have aided in this misconception. Not iiifroc|iicntIy have I read that " The Old Women of the Senate adjoiirneil at 4._^o p. m." In fact so much has this idea been advanced, and, I rej^ret to say, larj^^ely hy the (irit papers, that niany people have jfot it into their heads that many ot ihe Senators are old women. I can assure you Sir, not o\^^i of them wears petticoats, (l^au^^htcr and applause.) Not one of them but is the equal on the .iveras^'c to any man as a man in public life to-day. No later than this mornin}.;' I was pained to read in a prominent newspaper published not far from here, that "Those blessed o\d ninepins" the " Sena- tors " were to be found veiy much in evidence. I rej^jret very much to read such paragraphs. I regret \ery much that such langfuage should be used in describing so able a body of men and one without which the Ci>nfederation of Canada could not have been accomplished. The Senators oi Canada are not such an old body o\' men as the people of Canada imagfine. There are eighty- one Senators in Canada. The average ag^e of all these Senators is is sixt} five years as nearly as possible, ami twenty Senators are under sixty years of age. The youngest Senatcir at present, (Honorable Senator from Kigaud) is only thirt\ eig^ht years of ag'e, and the oldest Senator at present (Honorable Senator from Kred- ericton), is only ninety-four years of age. ((iovernnient applai .'^e.) The honorable g'entlemen opposite applaud, but thev are imM con sistent, Mr. Speaker. The Honorable Senator from Fredericton is of their own party and his (Irit friends at Ottawa have quite re- cently appointed an Honorable Senator who is ninety years of ag'e at least. (Opposition applause.) Now I wish to say this about the oldest Senator — the flonorable Senator from Fredericton. He is a man of affairs and great business acumen, and although he is the oldest man in any of the leg^islative bodies of the British Km- pire ; and has served the long^est of any man in any British Leg'is- lative body, having' been over (30) thirty years continuously in the Senate, with a parliamentary record g'oing- back over (40) forty years, I wish. Sir, to say also, that he is as active in his work as the younger Senators, invariably makes a g-ood speech every Ses- sion and is an energ-etic and useful member of the Banking" Com- mittee. (Applause.) Mr. Speaker. The public admire speeches — of that there can be little question. They like debates, especi- ally if they g^row a trifle warm and are on subjects with which they believe themselves to be familiar, and about which they are in the habit o( casually discussing-. When I look up at the g-aller- ies to-night and see the very large number of people assembled to hear this important question debated, I am certain they are inter- ested in it. They are here to hear the speeches ; but there are ver} few people present in the galleries to-nig-ht who understand what this Senate is, what this Senate does, or what this measure of Senate reform consists of. In Ottaw.i, as in Toronto, the pub- lic are fonJ of debates and lonjjf speeches. They attend the ses- sions of the House of Commons in prof'ertnce to the Senate, for this very reason. I'he Senate is not in public favor because of this lack of warm debates and excitinj^ speeclies on the various ques- ' tions of the day. Tlie j^rcat bulk of the work of the Senate is done in committee; it is ilt>i.e quietly: it is done unostentatiously. There is no attempt at display about the nature of the work done by the Senate. The work they have to do, and it is very important, it is very laborious, is and always has been well and faithfully per- formed. (Applause.) • The work of the Senate, as I shall endeavor to show, is not partisan work, it is not work that appeals to the sympathies or the enthusiasm of the public, because the ^reat portion oi' this work is unknown or unheard of by them. The work done by the Senate is larjfely of a refetendum nature, and it has two principal functions. The one is to revise leg'islation that is imperfect, and the other to check and prevent injudicious lej,'islation. It can i.\o this latter by throwing out any measure it considers of doubtful ailvantage to the counliy when passed by a majority in the Commons, and thus force the Government to g-o to the country. If the country, after mature deliberation, approves of the measure, then the Senate must assent to it. This is a well established principle of our Constitution, and has been accepted by various leaders of our Senate in public, as the principle governing them. Mr. Speaker, as I have said, very little is known of the great amount of work performed by the Senate, but I can assure you, sir, that every session, on an average, from loo to 150 Government measures and other bills are taken up and disposed of, and of this number, generally from 30 to 50 bills are sent back to the Commons, with amendments as to principle and working details more or less important. (Applause). And from 2 to 3 bills, on an average, every session are thrown out altogether. (I.oud applause). I have known cases where bills returned to the Commons, with amendments or changes, were sent back to the Senate again to say the amendments proposed were not desirable ; but upon the Senate giving their reasons fully for insisting on such changes and modifications, the bills, upon being returned to the Commons were accepted as amended. (Applause). Then regarding the bills rejected altogether, with one or two glaring examples, the public know very little of the good work performed in the interests of Canada in this regard by our pains taking and much abused Senate. 1 assure you Mr. Speaker, and I know whereof 1 speak, that since Confederation, from 1867 to rScjS inclusive, the Senate has thrown out altogether 153 bills. (Loud applause). These bills 8 thrown out are not as alleg'ed by the Grit press "Reform measures" exclusively ; any more than "Conservavive measures" exclusively. The axe of the Senate appears to have fallen about equally on both parties' measures, as the following- carefully prepared table shows. To my mind this completely refutes the text of Hon. Minister of Education's speech that the Senate is a block to the progress of the Reform party. Bills Rejected by the Senate, 1867-1898 inclusive. I'rivate Government I'ubli;- Bills. , Bills. Bills, includinif Divorce. Total. Of these there orii^inated in the Senate 20 27 28 75 Originated in the Commons. ... 45 8 25 78 65 35 =3 153 Of the Government Bills Rejected by the Sen.ate. 1867-73, Conservative Adininistration, 7 sessions 23 Bills. 1874-78, Liberal Adininistration, 5 sessions 13 Bills. 1879-96, Conservative Administration, 18 sessions 24 Bills. 1896-98, Liberal Administration, 3 sessions 5 Bills. That is omitting the two short sessions in 1873 and 1896. 47 Bills of Conservatives were thrown out in 24 sessions. 18 Bills of Liberals were thrown out in 7 sessions. Mr. Speaker, this does not appear to be a partisan Senate's work. (.Applause). It does not appear to be the work of a body of old women or old fogies. It is, in reality, the result of thirty years' work by one of the ablest bodies of public men tTiis country possesses. When these rejected measures are analyzed it will be found that the saving to Canada by reason of such action on the part ot a fearless and non-partisan Senate has resulted in the saving to this country, of millions upon millions of dollars. (Applause). I have not time at this late hour, or perhaps I should say this late stage of this session, to diagnose all or many of these rejected bills, but I cannot let the opportunity pass without alluding to a few of them. In the first place I wish to refer to Sir John Macdoaald's •• Criminal Bill," which was, in the main, an eminently proper and important measure. It was a bill framed to consolidate many various enactments, but it came to the Senate almost at the adjournment of Parliament in 1868, and too late for the Senators to carefully revise the measure. One of the first Senators to pronounce upon it was the Hon. Senator from York (Hon. Geo Allan, Conservative). He was the first to say to the Commons "Give us time," and the result was, this bill was thrown out and had to be re-introduced *'dcnovo'' at the next session of Parlia- ment. (Applause). Then there was the " Harvey and Salisbury Railway Bill," also in the Conservative administration, which carried in the Com- mons by a vote of 70 to 34, in 1890. This g'ave a connecting' link by railway between Montreal and Halifax, and the original railway charters were let in three separate sections. The Canadian Pacific railway had undertaken, under certain restrictions, to build all three of these sections. It was popularly known at the time as the "Short Line Railway." After building two sections, they declined to build the third one, the Harvey and Salisbury section, in New Brunswick. It represented a very large additional outlay and only saved on the run from Montreal to Halifax some twenty odd miles The government of the day, however, proposed to go ahead with it, and after carrying this Bill in th. Jommons by 36 of a majority, it came up U the Senate and was defeated by a vote of 22 to 11. The Honorable Senator from Richmond, (Miller, Con.) moved a six months hoist, and the Honorable Sena- tor from Halifax, (Power, Lib.) who is one of strongest Liberals in the Senate, voted for the bill. On this occasion Hon. Senator Miller, (Con.) ex-Speaker of the Senate, and one of the foremost parliamentarians of Canada, said in concluding his speech against the bill : " I cannot resume my seat without reminding the House that to-day is presented to them one of the rare occasions — occasions which seldom occur -to show to the country that the Senate is, as it ought to be, an independent body, and that, when ever it becomes necessary, we are prepared to place our duty to the people above any slavish exigencies of party." (Applause.) .Another interesting case showing how very non-partisan the Senate has been in the oast was the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Rail- way Bill, which was fathered by Hon. Alexander Mackenzie. This leader ot the Grit party also endeavored to manipulate, or rather re-arrange, the Senate for the purposes of passing this Esquimalt and Nanaimo railway iniquity, and other political pur- poses, but signally failed. However, I w ill deal with that episode in Mackenzie's career later to-night. The Esquimalt and Nanaimo railway was to run on Vancouver Island, a distance of some 65 miles— a mere branch road of no great importance, and yet it was to be given a bonus of $10,000 per mile in money and 20,000 acres of land per mile. In all a bonus estimated at the time at about two and a half millions. This remarkable measure passed the House of Com- mons in 1875, with flying colors and came to the Senate 10 Public sympathy was much aroused over the passage of this iniquitous Bill for the wholesale squanderinj^f of public property, and waited in g-reat suspense to learn the verdict of the Senate. Nor were they disappointed in the action ot the Senate, nor has the public ever regretted the action of the Senate (Applause) and I am sure, knowing" of them as I do, they never will be dis- appointed. (Applause). The result of the vote in the Senate, on the throwing out of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway Bill will bear looking into. It was defeated by a vote ot 24 to 2i, that was 3 votes. Yet, in looking over the names of those Hon. Senators who voted, I find that eight Liberal Senators voted against this bill, and exactly eight Conservative Senators voted for it. Mr. Speaker, I wish you Sir, in this vote of the Senate of Canada, to remember it was defeated by three votes. I wish to explain Mackenzie's action in desiring to rearrange the Senate by attempting to add six new Senators, which, had he been able to accomplish it, might have changed the result of that vote. Mac- kenzie assumed office late in the tall of 1873, ^"<^ before Christmas Day of the same year, on his own report, the Privy Council . advised that an application should be made to Her Majesty to add six new members to the Senate, " In the public interest." Now, by the twenty-sixth section of the British North America Act of 1867 the Queen is empowered, on the recommendation of the Governor-General, if she thinks fit, to direct that 3 or 6 members be added to the Senate of Canada. Although it was not alleged at this time, still it was not denied, Mr. Speaker, that this increased number of Senators was to be made for political reasons. Later it was shown in the Senate that such was the purpose. The recommendation to add these six new Senators was forwarded to the Secretary of State in England, through the Governor-General. Within two months the Colonial Secretary (Earl of Kimberley) in a despatch in reply stated that " Her Majesty could not be advised to take the responsibility of interfering with the Consti- tution of the Senate, except upon an occasion when it had been made apparent that a ditTerence had arisen between the two Houses, of so serious and permanent a character, that the Govern- ment could not be carried on without Her intervention." (Applause). Four years after this despatch was received, a return of all the papers and correspondence was made to the Senate, and a motion introduced there, "That regarding the appointment of 6 additional Senators, upon the occurrence of some grave political emergency," etc., etc., the thanks of the Senate of Canada be ten- dered to the advisers ot Her Majesty, for not taking the responsi- bility of interfering with the Constitution of the Senate, or words to that effect. It was moved in amendment that all the words after "Ma/" be struck out and something as follows substituted. T 1 (I am quoting- from memory, but the exact facts can be found Vol, XI, Journals of the Senate, 1877, pa«(e 130). "That the Govern- ment did recommend that 6 Senators should be added, but, that it is not convenient to attempt a desig-nation of the Cases in and the purposes for which such power should be exercised." As this amendment was moved and seconded by two of the Liberal Government supporters in the Seni'te (Horjs. Reesor and Haythorne) and as it included a statement that the Mackenzie Government had not the advantaj^e of the political confidence of a majority of the Senate, this clearly demonstrated that the re- quest was made for political reasons, and thus perished the Es- quimalt and Nanaimo Railway Bill. (Applause.) I said, Mr. Speaker, I would only allude in detail to a few of these Bills rejected by the Senate, and I have endeavored to make it clear that in these rejections the Senators were actuated by non- partisan motives. I cannot pass from this subject, however, with- out alluding briefly to two other rejected bills, namely, the Drum- mond County and the "Wikon Railway Bills. (Applause.) These are of so recent a date that the enormities proposed, perhaps, are fresh in your minds. The public ot Canada have ag^ain to feel thankful to the Senate for checking and preventing this most in- judicious legislation. (Applause.) Never was the Senate of Can- ada more in harmony with popular feeling- than when it rejected these two objectionable and unwise measures. It must not be im- agined that because the Drummond County Railway Bill was re- jected there are not many Senators who believe that the Intercol- onial railway should be extended into Montreal. As Kipling- says, that is another story. (Laughter.) The action of the Senate in discarding the Drummond County Bill has already improved the bargain with the Grand Trunk railway and Mr. Greenshitlds by as much as one million dollars, $4qi ,541.00 of which repsesenis the difference between the first price and the price under the new contract for the sale of the Drummond County railway. This balance of upwards of half a million dollars is a ridiculously low valuation for the advantages under the new contract with the Grand Trunk railway and this saving is now admitted at head- quarters. (Applause.) This Drummond County Ry.Bill was brought down by rhe Laurier Government at the very end of the session of 1897. Their own followers in the Commons objected vigorously and raised such a row over it that for a time there was a doubt whether it would pass the Commons. But the screws were put on them. How do you suppose the screws were put on, Mr. Speaker? They were put on by stating that the Government were already committed to it, and unless the Government were support- ed they would have to resign and give way to the Con^ervatives. Subsequent events showed that this improvident bargain was 12 signed before it was submitted to the house at all, and the Order- in-Council authorizinj^ it was dated some six weeks earlier. As was to be expected, the Senate would have none ot it. Then this \'ukon Railway Hill, creating a great monopoly, and removing trom the hands of the government into the hands of a syndicate millions ot acres of land, supposed to contain vast quantities of gold, was treated last year (1898) in the same way by the Senate, and deservedly so. The Senate by their action in throwing out this bill prevented the completion of one of the most stupendous deals and monopolies ever attempted in this country, and one which would have proved disastrous to the development of the Yu- kon district. I do not believe the Senators are adverse to any railway ex- penditures necessary to secure the trade of this vast new gold- bearing area of Canada, but a deal such as this could not possibly have gained their approval. In the first place the arrangement was made without any tenders being called for, and the railway was not to be constructed exclusively in Canadian territory. It was to be only 150 miles in extent, and built in the flimsiest pos- sible way, nothing better in fact than alight tramway. It was to have a most favorably located land grant subsidy of about four million acres upon which the government was to receive only one per cent royalty, instead of ten per cent- royalty paid by other mining claims. For ten years it was to have a railway monopoly. While the heated and prolonged discussion of this Bill was at its height Mr. Hamilton Smith representing an linglish syndicate offered to build a road to the Yukon on very much better terms. He offered to build a road of narrow gauge into this new Eldorado exclusively in Canadian territory. This would require the con- struction of as much as 288 miles of railway. Mr. Smith did not ask any concessions of importance except nearly two million acres of land grant subsidy, nor did he ask for any reduction in royalty of the 10 per cent to be paid the government. But Mr, Smith was not listened to by the Laurier Cabinet and the Yukon Bill went up to the Senate and received a six months' hoist, (Applause.) Then what happened ? The Government of the day, in keeping with the spirit of the defeated Yukon Railway Bill, later resisted and pre- vented the passage of a bill to charter the railway suggested by Mr. Hamilton Smith's proposition, which was much fairer and more in the public interest. As the government have since fixed the price of mining lands in the Yukon at ten dollars per acre, it is easy to estimate the value they placed on the four millions of acres of the choicest mining lands it was their intention to hand over to their friends. Mr. Speaker, I do not see from these various illustrations I have given, and from many others I could give, that the Senate is or can be considered a partisan body. The Liberal party now in power at Ottawa should rest themselves in patience and leave the Senate alone. The Senate is all ri^ht and always has been all rii^ht, o;ily they will not pass me.isures that are injurious or im- perfect. (Applause ) The S.;nate has never been factious or unjust and although there is no doubt the Tonservative party is stronj^est in the Senate now its streng-th is yearly decreasing and it is sur- prising how soon this valuable portion of our governmental sys tem, by reason of the advanced ages of many of its members, may change its political countenance. Mr. Speaker, I have alluded to the Hon. Mr. Marchand, Pre- mier of Quebec, as refusing to pass any measure ot Senate reform such as is being considered in this Legislative Assembly, although the Premier of Canada and one of his colleagues went to Quebec specially to show him the error of his ways. In Nova Scotia, which also has a Liberal Government in power, there was a different story and the "Dominion Senate" was reformed in short order by that diminitutive chamber. But how inconsistent is the Premier, Hon. Mr. Longley, who stated that the Imperial Government had ignored their own memorial to abolish thtir own little Upper House or Senate. There is a Senate in Nova Scotia and the Nova Scotia Grits decline to abolish it although they have the power to wipe it out. Some years ago a former Premier after advocating secession pretended that he wanted to save money by getting rid of this little Provincial Senate. But now their Senate contains fourteen Liberals and six Conservatives, which is regarded better than abolition ; so the abolition campaign is dropped. Mr. Speaker, this brings me to the error in our political arena of having the same political power in charge at Ottawa, that is in power at the same time in the Provinces. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of Ontario, while he was in political life, and while Premier of this Province, expressed himself most forcibly on this question. It was the main plank of his platform in the provincial elections of 1886, 1890, 1894, that the same party should not be in power at Ottawa and Toronto at the same time. (Applause.) Strange to say I did not observe this was used on the public platforms by the Grits as one of their planks at the recent provincial elections of 1898. (Laughter.) If this were so to- day we would not be engaged at present in debating a resolution to reform the Dominion Senate, which is clearly a matter w^ith which we have nothing whatever to do. (Applause.) Hon. Sir Oliver Mowat in a letter to his constituents, published in the Tor- onto Globe of June 2nd, 1890, says : "For the Province to have a Provincial Government in close party alliance with the present government at Ottawa, is for the Province to give up their right or claim which may be in opposition to any policy adopted for 14 party purpose.', or otherwise, by the Dominion Government. (Ap plause.) And then the Toronto Globe ; he;;r what the Toronto Globe says on the same subject. HiMiourable j^'entiemen opposite must believe what the Globj says. Speakinjjf of the e'^ctions of 18H6, in the issue of Decmber 20th, 1886, I find the following: — " The occasion is one in which Conservatives and Reformers should all unite in order that there may he in Ontario a Govern- ment independent of the government at Ottawa." But this did not answer the Liberals in the last Provincial campai^'^n of 1898, and they chanfjed their political clothes with that celerity for which they are now noted. They induced the Premier of Canada and his colleag'ues to assist" them in carrying- the Province for them. Ata mass meeting of the Grits held in the City of Ottawa during the last Provincial campaign Sir Wilfrid Laurier was present on the platform and some of his colleagues were also present ; and some honourable gentlemen opposite will remember the occasion for they were also present. The Premier of Canada that night on a public platform in the City of Ottawa told his audience that the Province of Ontario was his strong right arm and that he would sooner lose his right arm than lose the Province. Mr. Speaker, the Pre- mier of Canada did not quite lose his right arm but he came out of that fight with his right arm in a very damaged and limp con- dition. (Laughter and applause.) His right arm was still there, but there was not much left to hold it on- (Laughter.) I do not know what portion of his anatomy the Premier of Canada would sooner lose than lose Nova Scotia. It occurs to me his left foot would be appropriate as the left foot is foremost, (laughter) and the Senate reforn question was first and foremost in the Nova Scotia legislature (Applause.) So the Premier's right foot is safe. (Laughter.) But Quebec, there is no question about Que- bec, there is no question that Quebec represents the Premier of Canada's head, and there is no doubt he lost his head over Senate reform. (Loud applause.) Mr. Speaker, I will support the amend- ment to the amendment. ^/.r^