c^NA.r>.v BUDGET SPEECH liKI.IVKKKI) BT HON. (il'ORCK K; FOSTIvIl D.C.L, M.I'. MI.N l.S'l'l';it «)K KIXANCK, HOUSF. OF COMMONS FRIDAY, :Ji{i) MAY OTTAWA ]'UINTi;i) IJY S. !•;. DAWSON, I'UINTKR To TIIK tiUKKN'S MOST KXCKLIiKNT M AJ KSTV 1896 C A X .V 1 > .Y BUDGET SPIHiCH lir;i.ivi:i;i:i) i;y HON. amiiW. Iv I'OSTI'll D.C.I... M.P. :\i r vir<'i"i;K' oi<' >'in'.v>:c]<: Horsr: or comaioxs FH^I).\^■. :!i;i) MAY '«93 OTTA^\•A PRTNTKI) HV S. i:. DAWSON, PKINTHK TO THE »iri';KX'.S,«MOSr EXL'KLLKNT MA.IESTV 1896 BUDGET SPEECH IiKLIVKIiKli IIV llOX. GEORGE 1-. lOSTliR. D.C.I... M.P. M I .NISI' in; <)l-' I'M .NA .N( l', IN 'IllK llorsK OF COMMONS, FlilDAW :Ji{i) :MAV, FS'j:) WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET. Mr. FOSTER moved : That the House resolve Itself Into Commlttea to consider t)ip Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. iiKVKM-i:, LslCMtt. He said : Mr. Speaker, the revenue was esti- mated Inst year when I dolivei'od the expo- sition of the BudKet, at $;W,r.OO.Olde(i IfS.aSl.OSS, bein^' au in- j crease over the pn'ceding year's collection of | .$]3.7"J4. Prom Miscellaneous there was de- rived !i!S,"9o,480, a decrease of §;.">1.751. The : total decrease as comi)ared with the pre- cedi'iR year was $1,7});!,915. It has been | custoiuary for a luimber ♦of years to read the princii»al items of increase or decrease respectively, and I shall follow that prac- tice this year. Comparing 1894 with the pie^ ceding year, it will be found that in the following lines of articles reductions in duties have taken place :— Ale, beer and porter $ 2,054 Animals, living 12,252 Books, periodicals and other mat- ter, N.E.S 15,217 Brass and manufactures of 20,551 Grain of nil kinds 10,735 Bricks and tiles 4,477 Carpets and squares 4,477 Cement 3,894 p u Clocks and clock springs $ 4,207 I Coal and coke 147, S«0 I Copper and manufactures of 26,060 Cotton, manufactures of 166,775 Drugs, dyes, chemicals and tuedl- clnes 70,261 Rarthenware and china 13,110 Kiincy goods 21,384 1 Fla.x, hemp and jute, manufac- I turcs of 48,705 ! Gloves and mitts 12,192 Gold and silver, manufactures of. 3,529 Gunpowder and other explosives. 10,625 (Jutta pcrcha and India-rubber, manufactur(>8 of 50,370 Hats, caps and bonnets 31,366 Iron and steel, manufactures of. 421,683 Lead and manufactures of 14,569 Leather do 58.828 Metal, composition and other 12,594 Musical Instruments 19,622 Oil, except coal, kerosene and pro- ducts of 19,982 Oilcloth 12,400 Paints and colours 9,440 Paper and manufactures of 72^217 Pickles, saiiros and capers of all kinds 15,277 Printing presses 8.365 Salt s^oao Silk, manufacturt ■ of 83,188 Soap of all kinds 6,606 Spices do 5,774 Stone and manufactures of 2,541 Sugar, molasses 2,760 do candy and confectionery. lo!l53 Tobacco 4,749 Turpentine, spirits of sjafig Watches and parts of 8^091 Wood and manufactures of 56,'5i;0 Wool do 4321515 All other dutiable goods 132,472 On the other hand in the following in- stances we have received increased amounts over those received on the same articles In 1893 :- Arrowroot, biscuit, rice, maca- roni, &c } 2.370 Carriages 23,723 Rmbroideries $11,340 rish and products of 4,617 Prult and nuts, dried 52!569 Fnilt. green 6.1,347 Glass and ninnufactures of 2,380 Oils, coal, kcroHi'Do, ami proilucta of 22,.')37 I'aoknKes 9,852 Provisions :— butter, cheese, lanl and moats 2S,47S Seeds and roots 3.flfi7 Sjili-lts and wlne< 5S,284 .SiiKJir of all kinds 11,S94 Ten S,737 VeRetaldea t;,ri23 In llio (iflicr cliiof ItiMii of t.nxatlim. Kxcisc. there lias l>tt'ii as alivnd.v pointed out ii BllKlit Incrotise on tho rocolpis of ISOl. It will 1)(» notii'(>(I that the dtn'rc-iscs are pri-tty trt'iK-r.-iliy sprc.id over tlio list of imported urtk'los ; lli<> inircasf ludn;; priiicip.'illy iti tlio !irli tlie Trade Returns, tliore are two or tiiree i)oints tliat may bo empliasized. Tlie total Im- jKiris were less tliau tlie preee(lln>; year by .'jiS.Cdl.dl". The dutiable imports were lt>ss by .ST.ii!)l..!S!>. The total imports of uier- chamllse were les.s. Sir men AUr> C.VUTWUIOTIT. Aw you ineluding coin and bullion in the total im- ports V :Mr. FOSTER. In tho total imports, the coin and Imlliou arc include. In lookiiif; for the reasons for the shrinkaRe or diminu- tion in the Customs revenue. I suiipose we will ail a^ri'ee t]i;it they may be found under three iH'ads— nainely. either reduced eon- sumption, or shrinkaRo in values, or in addition and in i-onjunction with tliat tlie reduction of taxation which follows in ad valorem dutie.« upon the shrink- njre in values. Now, it may have been the opinion of some that a larce jiroitortion of the fall In revenue was due to under-con- 8Uii'|)tioii, but If you take Into account th'» liKures tiiiil I ixnvv 'is to the Imports of dutiable ;roods and merchandise, especially, and also take Into account the shrinkaue In v;>lMe>» which Is kiiown and ackiiowledjred, I tliink we sliall easily come to the cond.i- sion that so far as imported jroods were coii- ceriiod in tlu' year IS'.V!!)!. as to their bulk or vobuno there was very little less con- sumption of tliein in <'aiiad:i than in tho year preceding. I loi>k. therefore, for the chief cause of diminution in tiio Customs revenue, as compared witli tho iirocediiiK year, to a shrinkJiuo in values of imported Koods, and the consoiiuontly lessenetl amount of di'.t.v iiaid upon lli'> diminlshei] (>!■ do- creased value. TiiJlt Would be (•.•isily aji- parent. Suppose that dutiiil>l(> ;:oods to the amount of .^To.tMXi.coo aiv brought In. and that then? is a shrinUa;r(> of v:ilue, com- pared with tho succeodinjr year, of ."• pet* cent ; if the duties of tho preceding; year were 30 {ler cent, tho same rate of duty applied to tho value dliuinlshed by ,'> per cent would irive you 'i vi-ry coiisideraiile fail in tli(> revenue to be derived. It is from this scyiirce that, I tiiink. the iaruest part. b.\- f;ir, of the dimiuiition of the duties from Customs liiis aiisen. If wc no to the Excise, we will lind in reference to it, that there was a sliiriit decre.'isc' in the duty upon the spirits. The followiii;: compara- tivo statoniciit uiv(\s the tran.Kaction in the several articles usually included under this lio.id, the amount taken for consumption, ami I lie duty accrued tlieroon as reported by the lion. Controller of Inland Revenue :— Spirits , .\lalt Ci^'nrs CiKiintli's. . Tiiliiucii iiiiil Calls. . No. -mil!'. . L1.S. Dutv. i.*''.i:f. lliiiv. \s:t\. lllcii-:iM'. I).. 1S!I|. IS'.ll. L'.7l7..V.t7 •_'.7.">i.(;"i7 .'?».i;«i,;io(i .•*i.i:n..'iS7 7,'.il'.l ."ili.ltSL'.T.M .M.:tii,L'iMi l.OOl.li.Vl !l.-pO.Sl."i .".o.SKi 11 i.i;i;s..s(i'.i ii.\;t!iL',s:,7 li.sl.(IL'S r„s'.i.is4 7..Vjtt fj.s70.1iMi .v., 1 i:{..'iiM( til, ;«).") .SJ.71:. l.s.llo l(l,lMKI,IHi-_' !i..s:i7,tlS4 2..'$7:i.si-.' L',:{iu,i.vs l.'l.tMi) !?8.i»0ii,70(; SMMS,l';->4 25,!M!(i ; 74. IIS IS,l.-.2 The duty acHTUcd, ns will bo seen, liiiH dc- cllupd somewhat, but suIIU'leiit hns becu re- cH'lvcd from mctliylatod sjtIrltH to oouiitcraot this, Mild to Kivc lis, besides, tlie small In- crease before-meiitlMiied of .^l.'J."-"). Tiie ilim- liiutlon of $50,840 OH malt was due, of course, to the decivase In the duty on malt. Al- tiiKotlier, the excise sliows a slight j,'ain of 4;io.7-r», a u'.iin arising from the i>roIlts upon the sale of methylated rt|)lrlts, a branch of ludusiry which is carried on under the •sniicrvlslon of the Excise Deiiartment. It Las been customary to pive a table of the c.imiiaraiivc consumption, by population, of siiirlls, beer, wine and tobacco. It is for this ycnr as follows :— . Spirits. Depp. WIno. T'b'co Average from 18G7... 10S7 2832 137 2151 do for 1892-93.. -740 3485 •0!)4 2-31I do forl893-U4.. 742 3-722 089 2264 The detail this year shows for ISD.'MIl a con- HUinptlon of spirits of -T-IJ ; of beer, lil-- ; of wine, US!) ; jind of tobac<'o, liliUi, slio\vln,i;. In spirits, a very slight Increase, lu beer a considerable increase, in wine a slight de- crea.-se. and in tobacco a sli^,'lit 7. Now, that f;ict is worth nolin^r. .\s we look throu;;!i the receipts, it appears lliat altho\iKh there was a falling off lu the receipts of the Elsh- (M'ies Department, whicli, however, were larjrer this ye.ar than In any preceding year except 1802-03, uud in the flues, forfeitures and selzun-s, which are variable, in casual revenue. In ctdlers" revenue, lu uas revenue, in interest on investments, In revenue from insurance. In revenue de- rived from the industries In the penitenti- aries, and In post ollice revenue, there liave been increases ; while In the revenue from public works, wliicli include railways aud <'an:ils, the loss was only .'J5.S,70(( ; and yet from this source tlu; reveuue remained the iilKhest of all but two years since 1807, namely, the years 1880-00, and 1802-93. Now, tilt? receipts uinler Misci-llaiieous luay be ilenoiiiinated earnln;;s, coming as they do from our public works, railways, post olllces and Investments ; and they form a very ;:ood index to tlie state of business aud the liiiancial lieallh of the eoiiniry : and it Is ;;railfyi!ii: that in the year 1S03-04, when what has been (■••liied hard times have been prevalent the world over, and Canada has had to bear a share with the rest of the world, our revenues from tht.'se sources have— if you take out the falling off from forfeitures, fines and seizures— been larger than tliose of the preceding year, and larger than those of any other year since confeder- ation. r.XI'KNIilTlKK, ]S<.l.t-',)4. I come now to tlio expenditures for 1893- 1)4. They amount to $37,585,025. an excess ovt>r those of 1S02-03 of .$770,072. This might at llrst glance be cited as an evidence of extravagant expenditure on the part of llie Covernmeiit in a year of liiiancial stress, and a want of prudence aud foresight In managing the controllable expenditures. But if we look Into the Items which have chiefly caused this increase, we shall llnd that there Is another reason for it. Of this increase of $770,072, lu expenditure, $405,- 7(1" is duo to IntercHt on debt, ^35,840 to MiiikiiiK fiiiiil, wlilch is u layiiiK up aKuinst ilclit, iiiid ."fliTo.SN'j to subsldlt'S to jdoviiices, wliidi if talvt'ii from tlds trciisury j,'o to help till- dilTi'ii'iit in'oviiK'iiil trcasniics. Tliese itoiiis all told uiake a sum of $7r_',442, which is within .i;."i8.ri;{0 of the total ovor-expeudl- turc of 1WI3-{>1, ns compared with that of ls,(XJ() for the preceding year ; so that allhough this sum appears among the expenditures and conse- quently counts as an over-expenditure In the comparative statement, it is not an t>ver- expenditure In reality. It is simply what we may call a returning vote, which goes out and comes back again, which formerly went out and came back without an api>ro- priation. but wliich last year wes estimated for and became an appropriation. The same is true to a certain extent with reg;ird to the sum of $74,210, which was expended for binder twine, machinery and stock in the peintentiary at Kingston. That was an ex- tr.'iordinary outlay. Last year there was no income to set off against it ; but it was a prepa nation for Income, and up to the 31 st of March this year, the sum of .$1(5,400 has been received on account of sales made in the penitentiary, and in the coming season which we have Just entered. It is estimated that over .fPMMX* will be received fnmi these sitlos. Tlien, there is a post othce over-ex|)enditure of .f!)tl,o.-.8, and an over- expemliture on account of premium and exchange in connection witii the debt of .')!i:!,4L'.S ; but against these are increased receipts of $3.'>,H(K) from the post olllce, and .ti'Jl.ooo on account of premium and exchange. Summing up tiiese remarks, ; the whole result is, that althougli there was an increase in tiie exiieiuliture of 1S.(KM» for the sale of stock manu- factured at the Kingston penitt-ntiary, oper- ates as a set-off. We find that tliere has Ih^cii a decrease In expenditures, in charges of management, in the Kislieries Department, in legislation, in Llglitliouse and Coast Ser- I vice. In Militia and Uefence, Miscellano(m8, ! Mounted Police, Pensions, I'olice, Itaiiways and (.'anais, Superannuation, Adulteration of Pood, Culling Timber, and in Dominion lands. There has been an increase in interest and Sinking Fund, which are statutory, in the Administration ot .lusti by .$l.lil((.;{.'!i;, whicli measures the size of that unwelcome visitor, as a de- ficit has been called. But we must recollect this, tliat if there is a deficit on the year's o|)erations of $1, -210,332, there is included in the expenditure the sum of .1(2, 131, .'{(SO for .sinking fund, which is so much laid up against debt, so that the result, translated into the vernacular, of last year's revenue and ('.\|iciiilltun', b sliii[il.v tliis. tlint witli thf revenue we met all the expenditure for the Hervlccw of tlu> (•oiiniry outside of capital, and lai.'{,7!).'{,t!T7 pounds of sujjar were Imported for home consumption Into Canada. If the rate of duty which was charged in 1800-01 and then talven off. had lH>en imposed on tliiii imporied su^'ar last year, the duty which would have accrued would have lieen .fl.H-Jt.'JO.'. Tliis would have swept away tlie deficit and left !?;{,»;10,- 87;{ to fio against the diminution of tlio (lol)t or for capital. Tlie net result to tlie people t is .SI. '.(»!.- 080. Addinj: that to file additions in for- mer years, aud uc have from isod to 1804 inclusive, a total .'iddiliun to the debt of $S,(ii>2,087, which is an average of $1,730,597 per year. Hut that ad7 Hevenue, L'Oth April, 1894, to 30th .lune, 1894 7,11."?,521 33,380,27S Add anticipated betterment 419,722 Total .Trtual and estimated revenue, 1894-95 33.800,Ono Expected denclt 4,500.000 ijKviAiK AM> r,\iM;M>riinr., is'.i t-'.tr). I now come to the revenue and cxpondi- tuie for lS!)l-!)5, the ostiinale of wliich will lie nioHt clearly exhibited in the following talde :— ToUl expenditure $37,585,025 lOxpenditure to 20th April, 1894 25,085,570 Expenditure to 20th April, 1895 26,984,658 Expenditure, 2 mentioned of the current tlscal year. After carefidly lookintr over the matter, I have estimated the sum, in round nuuibers, at .^i.'.OO.OOO. Ibit, to brin;; tlie result out in i-oiind numliers, and avoid multijilicalion, I have put the amount down at .SllK.TiIL', which will make the total revemie Inr the cuii-ent: ye.ar, actually aceruing, and estimated by me to iiccrue. $33.SOO.()(Xt. as stated. On the other hand, I have estimated, after looklnK as care- fully as iiossil)le into the works that are in progress—and I have been very con- servative in niy estimate so as not to make the mistake of under-estimating the ex- I)enditure— that there will be a rednction of )j!1S4.1i;? in exi)enditure, as comparfHl with last year. This makes the total actual exjienditure. $;5S.;!()().0(H». Subtracting one from the other by an arithmetical process for which we are all competent, we Ihid the deficit exi)ected for the present year, $4,500.- 000. Now, it may have been noticed that the expenditure for the year up to the liOth April, of tlie year through which we are now i)assing. is greater than that of last year, by a considei'able amount. I wish to read the principal items of the increase, to show that it lias not been an over expendi- ture that was controllable. The interest on debt, accounts for )fl70,1203 ; legislation, revision of the voters' lists, ^ISG.noO. Tlie undertaking which we made with the Brit- ish (Jovernment, and which we are carrying out .jointly with the British Government at Ksipiimalt. is resiionsible for expenditure of $14;{..T>(>. Sulisidies to provinces, .$178.- l)oT. lOxcise, ijSlVi.itS!)— in tlie item of methy- lated spirits. This makes a total of ^'i'2-2.ul2 on these items, i)art of which are statutory, .'ind, as regards the ICsiininuilt exiicnditure, a matter of agreement, and as regards the ICxcise, chielly a matter of book-keeping, and the rev«Miue accrues on the other hand, as 1 have staled. The increase on .-lecount of legislation is for the revision of the voters' lists. Sir RICHARD CARTWIUCIIT. How long will the K.sciuimali expenditure con- tinue ? Mr. 1M)ST10R. I think another year will finish it, or neai'ly so— that is the extra- ordinary expenditure ; after that there is maintenance of the st'hool of marine artil- lery, which is jointly kejit tip. Now, in looking to find the reasons for the decrease in Customs revenue, we have been discuss- ing. I lind that tlie imports for home con- sumption to 1st April, 1894, were $8(>,:i70,7;59. and to 1st April. ISHo, they were $78,12(3, (503, showing a loss in the current year, compared with la.st yeai\ of ^8,244,13(5. So that during the current year more will have to be accounted for as to the decreased revenue by lessened consumption ; but yet, taking into accoimt the gi-eat fall in prices, which the London " Economist," a very conservative and very reliable paper, esti- mates at 7V2 l'«r cent for tlie year, taking' that into account. It will be steii that so far as volume or bulk Is coiicorncil. the consumption of this yonr has noi fallen niucli 1h?1o\v the consumption of the pro- ceding year ; and It Is satisfactory to know that up to the date I mention. April, tsy.'t, the exports of Canada have Ijeen p;reater by half a million dollars than the exports of ("an.'tda for the s;ime |)erlod last year. The cliief reason for the reduction in customs collections, then, is the one that 1 noticed with reference to the precedinR year, the fireat shrinkaue in value, and the reduc- tion of duty, a reduction of duty wliicli arises from tlicse cau^i's in tlie current year namely. the reduced duties of last year, the change to ad valorem froni specific In .n nund)er of nrtitlcs, tlu" h'ssened duties th;it iiecrued on the lowered value from the a,()(lit of the current year, we have also to note the fact tliat 1 noted with reference to the delitit of the i)rece(lin.; .\ ear. So far as returns po up to date, and an esti- mate beinp made for the remainder of (he year, the year 18!)l-!»."i will sec( an importa- tion of ;',l(t,t )()().( (00 poimds of su:?av for lioiue consumption. If that supar had been duti- able at tlie rate of 181)0-91, the duty that would have accrued upon it would have been .>;<4.0()(),000 ; so that if that duty hail been kept intact, and all the other reductions had been made that were made, we v.-ould still have had sullicient to prevent any ilc- flcit tt)V the present year, and have allowed a sm.'ill sum over for capital account. So that the account of the people vs. the state in this transaction is simply this, that the peopli! will have kept in tlieir jiockcts. by the removal of the duty. .'i!4.!t()().0(H) which they would otherwise have paid, and that tlie in- terest that will be paid for carrying the deficit is but ipi IL',5()0 ; that is, they will have paid for carryinp the burden of the deficit :i!142,4J00, iind have saved in tax.?s to themselves nearly $.">,()00,000. If you take capital expenditure up to the 20th April, 1895, there was expend- ed on railways and canals. !i<1.9G7,43r> ; on public works, ^Tl.O'Jl ; on Doniiidou lands, $09,508 ; on railway subsidies, $1,- 22r,fiU ; makinp In all. $P..rno,r>7n. It Is esti- mated that to the end of the year there will I be an ex|K!;."»,(MK»,00i>. Add to iliat ,^.').0i)0,. i (MX) the deficit of !i!4..")0(),ooi», and y:;.;»ST. Hut there Is ! t'.iis point to be considere.l by the House, as i it will, of course, be considered by the coun- try. that takinp the threo articie-t of plass, I anthracite coal and supjir, ther(> liave been I taken off by the reduction of duties in tlio ' way of glass, the removal of duiie.s on an thracite coal and on supar in those ve.'irs, the sum of $2a.0.">(i.li70. So tiiat had the duty ( u glass, anthracite coal and sugar been kept exactly as it was in 1890— or in the case of anthracite coal the duty which was removed a few years earlier— the ac- count would stand thus : that the people would have i)aid into the treasury '$'2',],{\oG,2~0 of taxation, which would hav;iven throufrhout the country in the arKUinenls of hon. jjcntlenieu opposed to us, as boln;: Indications of a period of distress arisinj; from a bad trade policy, and bad >;overn- ment management, such as Canada has never before, lu their own words, experi- ei ced or passed through. AS TO ITS CliKIHT. Sir. one of the very best indications of the condition of a country is the position that | its credit takes and maintains in tlie money i markets of tlie world. Now, Sir, it so liap- i pens that in tlie very midst of tlie depression ; and demoralization of trade that has been I visitinjr the world, and visitin^x Canada to a certain extent, it becomes necessary, in Octo- ber, 1801, for Canada to put a loan upon the 1894. for Canada to put a loan upon the I.on<'on market. Tiiat loaii was i)n!; on the lii.irket in the midst of linanclal and fad(> de;iression which had had tlie effect of loading a large amount of money, an almost unin'ccedentedly large amount, into the vaults of London, money. Sir. wliicli would Lot be temptdd out of its hilling or hoarding place, except by the very best of securities, and consequently all'ovd'ng the best test <.'•' the condition of the seciu'liics of a country which came for a loan to that market. At a time when tlio colonial securities were at their lowest, wlu n the securities of our sister colonies >vere very low indeed, wlien Canadian trade was decreasing, and our revenue was diminishing, the monthly statements to that effect being in the hands of the moneyed men in London to be read and known by all, when the value of securi- ties was never so carefully investigated and so Iceeniy weighed, and wlien good securi- ties stood for something in tlie period of their best testing time, a loan was put on behalf of Canada on the Britisli market of two and a (luarter millions at li per cent, at a minimum of 95. What happen- ed ? This, that the tenders received for that loan were the most widely distributed and had the widest scope among real, in- 1 dividual, bona flde Investors of any loan | that has ever been placed by Canada on the Kritisli market. No less than .^>(>() differ- ent tenders were sent in for that loan. Al- though two and a quarter millions were asked for, nearly twelve millions of jjounds were offered. The highest went at i'M l"Js. Od. or nearly par, nearly 50 per cent of it went at iiO" 8s. (id., while the aver.'.ge was £97 9s. 2d. ; and when you take the discount and cost and calculate tlie rate of interest, it appears to bo 3'/(i per cent, tlie l)est loan that was ever placed on the British market by Canada. Now, that counts for something ; and the mere recital of that fact will go further than many hours of windy decla- mation and strong assertion whicli may be indulged in by the enemies of Canada, or by its professed friends for political and party puriiosos. Sir RICHARD CARTWRKillT. The hon. gentleman has not, I believe, placed the pros- spoctus of the loan on the Table of the House yet. Mr. FOSTER. No, I will bring it over. A short time after that, the United States put an issue of bonds on the market, and the rate of interest which those bear and which the rnited States have to pay is within a fraction, in fact I think it is absolutely, 3% per cent, whilst the Canadian loan went on the British market at 3Va per cent. If we look at the difference in the circumstances we may liiid certain reasons why the loan of the United States went at a higher rate than It otherwise might have gime ; but the fact remains that a great country like the United States, putting out an issue of sixty millions of bonds, the payment of which w;is tindonliiedly si'ciire, have liad to pay 3% per cent, while Canada pays but 3Va per cent on her loan. AS •|0 ITS SWINGS. Another evidence of the condition of Can- ada is to be found in its savings. jNIr. MILLS (Bothwell). Hear, hear. Mr. FOSTER. The hon. member for Both- well says " hear, hoar." He does not be- lieve that sucli Is the case— he treats the idea with contempt. But when his col- league was Minister of Finance from 1874- 78, he did not treat an argument like that with contempt ; he put it forward as a very 11 strong point in favour of a better condition of affairs tlian somo of his oinioneiits ar- >:u(>(l as existin;;. Tlie lion, jct'iitleumu tliiuks a Kioat (leal of Liberal traditions, of Liberal precedents and Liberal principles as they are exeinplilied by the present Government In Great Britain, and he has only to read the telegraphic despatches of the speech of thi' ('li.-nuclior of tlu' IOxi'Ikmiuit yesterday to liud tliat lie wcni into an elaborate argu- ment to show that the position of Great Britain was not so bad as had been stated, and the argument on which lie relied was the increase in the savin;,'s of the people. Without doubt it is an argument Avhich has weigiit. How does that hold with respect to Canada ? Simply in this way.tliat whilst from 1874 to 1878 there was a decrease during that period of hard times, whlcli may be compared with the period through which wa have been passing, of !i!3.");5,().j7, or 4Vi> per cent ; yet in tlie live corresponding years in Canada there has been an increase of $41,- 271,1)08, or an increase of 21 per cent. Sir IIICIIAKI) C.VKTWKKJHT. May I ask the Finance Minister of what the forty- one million consist V Does tlio hon. gentle- man mean the Government Savings' Bank deposits ? Mr. FOSTER. No, I mean all the savings of the people. I'ost Oflice Savings' Lank, the Dominion Siiviiigs' Baidc. savings jn our chartered banks, on deposit, on call or for a fixeil time, and of tlie District Savings' Bank of Montreal :Mr. MILLS (Bothwell). And loan sccio- tles ? Mr. FOSTER. No, I do not Include them in that comparison, although I might do so. Mr. MILLS (Bothwell). Certainly. AS Ti> rAii.ini;s i\ msiNKss. Mr. FOSTER. The failures are also a lair Indication of the condition of the country. Wliat do we find to be the result in Canada ? In 1800 the failures for the year, according to Dun, Wlman & Co.'s. report, represent- ed liabilities of eigliteen million dollars ; In 1894, there were $17,000,000, or a decrease of 2 l-.'i per cent ; the same authority gives the liabilities In 1874 as !i!7.00(;,0<10, and in 1878 as .$23,908,000. an Increase o'' 210 per cent. If hon. members will take a fairer ' comparison, and take the average from lfc74 to 1878, they will find that it was $22,'.'97 ,000. while the average from 1890 to 1894, was only $15,090,000, there being a yearly average in excess during the period from 1874 to 1878 of $(i.500.(X)0 as compared with the period from 1890 to 1894. AS To rili: ("UliSK OK THAlii:. We can also take up the cimditlon of trade, and I am here to say that the condition represented liy tiie results arriveil at. from a careful comparison of the course of trade in Canada during the last Ave or six years, is eminently favoiu'able, anil Is one of which we have no reason to lie otherwise than proud. Let us take the trade of last year. It shows for last year an export increase to Great Britain of $4,otX),000, to France of 100 i)er cent, although the amount is not very large Mr. LAURIEU. Hear, hear. Mr. FOSTER. Still it is an Increase, and I am very sorry to And the leader of the Opposition has nothing but ridicule to pour on any attempt to increase our trade with I'^rance. Surely he must have forgotten the province from which he comes. There is an increase in exports to Germany from three-quarters of a million to two mil- lions ; tliore was also an increase with Spain, Italy, Belgium, Newfoundland, the West Indies, South America, China and .Japan. Australasia and other countries ; and the only decrease in our exports last year was to the United States, a large decrease, and to I'ortugal, and a very slight decrease with our trade with Holland. I say that lion, members may look over the history of our trade returns and they cannot find in any previous year a state of things showing such a universal and widely extended in- crease in our exports to the different coun- tries with which we trade as is found in the statement I made of our trade of last year. As to our Imports, there is an Increase in our trade with Germany, Spain, Italy, Newfoundland. South America. China and .Tapan, and Switzerland, and remark- able to say, there is a decrease In our exnorts to the United States of $8.- 000,000, and a decrease of Imports of $5,000,- 000, being $13,000,000 in all, but which will be remedied somewhat, I have no doubt, 12 when the era of extremely low prices passes and the effects of lesseneil tariff, owiuy: to tiie legislation of Conj^ress last year, are felt. There Is an increase with our trade of Cer- niany from !f4,D7(;,000 to .i;7.SS7,000 in a single year, or an iucreaso of over 72 per cent. Sir, it will be found that In 1880, which was about tlie time tliat this wave of depression commenced to flow over the world, the exports from Canada were of a value of ^8!),OOU,(J00. You will liud them last year one hundred and seventeen and a half millions, an increase of twenty-eiuht and (mc-hiilf millidii dollars (.'?liS..-)00.(M)Oj for that period. What more? The exports last year were, by value, $117.oOO,000, the larjiest of any year since confederation, wiili the ixceptioii of 18!).'}, when tliey were one liun- dred and elKhteen and a half millions ($118,- ."OO.OOO). but if you take the decrease In price into consideration, It is evident and cannot be jrainsaid, that the volume and bullc of exports last year was the hi;;hest since confederation. Take imporis, if you please. In ISSO tliey amounted to one hun- dred iind nine and a half millions (.•j;i()!)„")()0,- OiM)) ; tliey amounted last year to one hun- dred and thirteen millions ($li:?,nO(),000). an incr(>as(' in tlie period of three and a half millions ($.'5.."»(Mt,()0()), not taUinj,' into account the decreased prices, and consequently there was an increased volume or bulk. Now, I say th;it the voiiuui- of trade in 1894, taking exports and imports, was as hijih as in any preceding year In the his- tory of confederation, and I say that if jirices had been e(iual to wliat tliey were five yi>ars ajjo even, tliat tlieso trade re- turns of last year would be in value 'vliat they are In bulk and volume : tlie largest of any of the years during; wliich llio Do- minion has been carrying on its business. .\S To IIAU.WAVS AM) siiiri'iNf;. There Is another indication, a very good indication, tlie indication which is shown by the great carriers of tlie country. Take llie railroads and the shipping, and what do we lliid ? We find that from 1889 to 1S94, the railway mllcnge has In- crca.sed from 12,028 to 15,(520, the mile- ape travelled from 38,800,000 to 43,700,- 00(1. the passengers carried from twelve aud oue-fifth millions (12,200,000) to four- teen and a half millions (14,500,000), the tons of freight carried from eighte^'ii mil- lions to twenty and seven-tenths mil- lions, and the earnings fnmi $42,000.- 000 to $49,r.00,(K)0. Aud comparing tlie earn- ings, the freight carriinl, aud tlie passeu- gfMs carried this last year witli tlie two preceding years below which they come, 1 they still fall short of these two years by an I'xceedingly small anioiiut compared with wliidi the diH'reases in tht> Uuitx^d States are far and aw.iy above tlie de- creases that have d in Canada, li you take the coasting vessels and the ton- I iiage trade of tlie country, what do you tind i as well '.' You liud tliat there has been a I constant increase In the tonuag(> of vessels in and out, exclusive of coasting. In 1890 It was 18,440,000 tons, in 1892, 18,092,000 tons, j aud in 1894, 20,:r.:!.000 tons. Certainly, the I tonnage is Increasing, and if it goes and it I comes, it is fair to supp.>se tiiat it is car- i rying backwards and I'orwards. if you 1 take the tonnage of coasting vessels in and I out, the same increase is shown, namely, 22,797,1)00 in 1890, and 20..")00,000 in 1894. AS TO (TSIOMS TAXATION. Sir, you can take something else to show what lias been operating during these five years tliat some look upon as a peculiar time of stress and trial in Canada. Mr. MILLS (Bothwell). But they are de- luded. :Mr. FOSTER. A good many of them are deluded. Some of them see their delusion and others are so blind that they cannot see it. :Mr. :MILLS (Botliwell). The Minister sees It .Mr. FOSTIOK. Yes. Tlie per capita of Customs coll"ctioii in 18SS-89 was $5.01 per head, while the per capita of Customs coileetion in 189;{-i)4 was $3.82 per liead, or a n>(liictioti of $1.19 per head of the people in the amount that they hi.vo paid for Customs comparing 1889 with 1893, and yet the Imports in 1893-94 were larg.-r than the imports in 1888-89. Taking liio i)(>r cent of imports dutiable aud free for homo consumption, in 1888-89, it was 21t)5 per cent, while in 1893-94 it has been reduced to 17'13 per cent, a decrease of 4'/^ l;! per cent In th(> rato of Customs impost dur- tiifr tli(>se years. Taki> tlic actual iliitics col- lected on .?109,(;73,447 of Imports In 1889, namely, $23,784.r>2;{, and tnko tlie duties col- lected uiM.ii tiic !ple, and It is dtic to the fact of the i-eductions in taxation tliiit we made when the revenue was b\ioyant. and it Is thei'efore so much remitted to the peopi:?. Take this one other consideration. If the same percenta^r(> of Customs. 21 ■'»">. which was collected in 1889-00 had been coUeited every year since tlu-n. tlu-re would have been paid In Customs duties .$t2."i,112,S9.">. As it is. there was paid in .'?10S.."SS.o92. leaviuf; a Having to the people of $10,521,80;! by the reduction in the tax rale from 21-05 to 17 1.3. 8UMM.\RY OF .\I!OVi:. Taking leave of this, which I call the absolute view of the condition of Can- ada, let me summarize it in brief in this wa.y. In five .years the impor*., nave increased in value by $3,500,000, ani they have increas- ed In volume by a larpre amount, of course, o\vin;r to tlie decrease In value. The ex- ports have increased in value by i?2.S,000.000, and in volume, of course, much more, and are in 1S04, as I said, tlio hiKhest in value since confederation, with the exception of IS!):?, and the Iiigliest in volume of any year in our history. We have net surpluses dur- ins 4hat period from ISOO to 1804-95 of $",- 470,84,3. We have taken off taxation on sufjar alone, .ISLKOOO.OOO ; we have taken off taxation on two other articles to the amount of three and tliree-quartcr million dol- lars, and we have taken otT a large amount on items generall.v in the tariff, the revision of whii'li took place last year. W^e have Increased the debt by $8,G00,OO0. The Interest on th(» public debt, howeror, has bo(>n increased by only $100,000. 1 mean the net Interest ; while the per capita net interi'st h.is fallen from $1.80 to $1.79. No banks have fallen in that period in Canada through the stress of hard times, not one. Our industries have Ikku well maintained. Want iind poverty have been practiciilly luiknown in Canada, and com- paratively tile Canadian people have out- ridden the storm with vessel less batteretl and sails less tattered than any other coun- try in the world. And in the very midst of tli(> tinancial and business tempest, Canada ran her Hag of credit in tjie very centre of Lomlon up to the very highest notch from which it lias been unfurled from tlie time the Canadian provinces united. The tide, I believe, has now turned. Prices are re- covering, conlideiice is growing, trade is In- creasing, till! demand of the consumer is strengthening, rev«'nue is beginning to mend, as I have iKiintiMl out ; an.m;isi>\ with otiieu coin thiks, Nt>w, Sir, there is another view which may be taken of trade. You may look on this matter relatively. You may compare Can- ada witli other countries of the world— and let me ask your attention while I do that, very briefly. If you look over the great trading countries of the world— Great Brit- ain, France, tlie I'nited States, the Aus- tralian colonies— whiit has been the history of tlieir trading during these live or six years of whicli I have been speaking ? Rrietly, it is tliis ; Great Britain's exports of domestic manufactures in 1890 amount- ed to £2(5.3.530,585 ; they have steadily de- creased, until, in 1894. they amounted to i;2U!.104.2.'!9. a falling off of £47,.33(;,.340, or $2;!O.370,217. The Imports into Great Brit- .•liii liave fallen off from £420,091.997. in 1890, to £408,505,718, in 1894. a fall of £12,180,- 279, or, in round numbers, $(i0,000,000. The exports of France have fallen in the same period from £150,130,000 to £131,001,000 ; and those of Germany have fallen from £1(!(!.405,000 to £158,000.000. The exports of the I'nited States have fallen from $1,- 015,732,011, In 1892, to $809,204,937 In 1804 ; and the exports of the Australian colonies have fallen from £72,500,000, in 1891, to 14 £Or>,(KX).000, ill 18!)3. The liiiixjrts of Fraiici- Jinvp fallen from £l-7.47(!.()00, in 1890. to £l(!1.77!>.(»fM1. in 1804 ; those of Germanj- liave fallen from £208.10.-). 000, in 18'.)0, to £19S.fHK».(KH). in 1S!« ; those of the United States have fallen from .1!827,402.4(;2. in 1802, to .'?(!.-.4.994,(>22. in 1894 ; and those of the Australian colonies have fallen from £72.000,000. in 1801, to £53,000,000, iu 1893. liediice these liKUres to i)ereentaKes, and yon have this snri>risiii;; faet : That in Gre.at Britain the decrease in exports from 1890 to 1894 has been 18 per cent ; in France. 13 per cent ; in Germany, 5 per cent ; in the T'nited States. 15 per cent ; and in Australasia, 10 per cent ; while, in the same time, tlie exports of Canada have increased 22 per cent. 'IMi(> imports of Great Britain have fallen off 3 per cent ; those of France have fallen off 7 per cent ; tliose of Germany have increased 2 per cent ; those of the United States have fallen 21 per cent ; and tliose of AustrairdSia have fallen 2(5 per cent ; while the imports of Canada as to value, are exactly where they were iu 1890. CANADA IN 1S7I-78 rnMI'AUFll WITH li-sSD-lM. There is auotlier point of view which we may take— that is, to compare Can- ada with herself, which is a more sat- factory comparison, so far as the trull) Roes, thou.iili it may not be so pleasant to all of us. From 1874 to 1878 there was a period of acknowledged depression in this country. It has often been si)oUon about since that time. It has formed a subject of comment from many a hustiuKfi and platform, and has been written upon occasionally by the editors of newspapers. But, of late, one set of speakers, and one set of newspaper editors have begun to say and to write that the period from 1890 to 1894, in depression and hard times, and general badness in Canada, far eclipses the period from 1874 to 1878. Let us go to the law and the testimony. In April, 1874, the Finance Minister of that time made ills Budget speech In this House, standing about where I do. In that speech, looking back and taking leave of 1872-73, he spoke of it as " the last year of plent.y," with a surplus of .i!l,(500,000. Of 1873-74, in the midst of which he stood, he said : Wo have stood still, but wo have not retro- giado'l. Although we may fairly expect that our people will grow rapidly In wealth, we cannot icok for any great increase In their numbers. To avoid serious dollrlts. a very large amount of additional taxes will be necessary. He provided for $3,000,000 additional taxa- tion, and iu that year, 1873-74. his expendi- ture went up by about ?4.000,000. Sir RICIIAUn CAUTWUIGHT. No. Mr. FOSTER. He says he was not re- sponsible for it ; but that is what the Pub- lic Accounts show. His additional .?3.000.- (HtO of tJixcs l(niiii.'lit Ills surplus down from .$1,000,000 to ii!888.77r). in the year 1873-74, and to .593.-.044. in 1874-75. His capital ex- pendittire amounted to ?10,0(K».000. and his addition to the debt to $8.47(1,502. In 1873-74, and to .$7.083,(X)0. in 1874-75, and his trade fell )?17.0(>0.(X)0. In February. 1S75, he made his second Budget speecli. He dandled liig diminishing surplus ui)on his financial knees, and prophesied that next .\ear It \A()uld be no smaller. He excused the falling imports by jmiving that diminu- tion was not retrogression— a fact which j he must lu'ar in mind at present. He com- ! forted commercial iu(>n by hoping that they would find " new fields of trade which would partially comi)ensate them for that wliicli we have for tlie ])resent failed to obtain from our friends on the otli(>r side of tlie line." In February, 187(5. he spoke ag.aiu, : commencing by saying : ' It would be both Idle and dishonest on my ■ part to attempt to conceal from the Mouse that ' the circumstancos under which wo inoet are such as to deserve our very gravest consideration. It ' is, unfortunately, too true that wo arc now pass- I iiig, and have boon passing for sovoral months, through a comniorcia! crisis of groat and almost unparalleled severity. * » * » Tliere aro cases of great hardsbip existing In the country. Wo were, he said, in the midst of " a com- mercial squall or tornado, if you will "— .<;20.0(H 1.000 less trad(> for the i)revloiis year ; .S700.000 mori\ expenditure imminent ; face to face with a greater fallen trade, a greater loss in revenue, and a greater increase of ex- penditure. He could only console himself with the comforting Intimation that though •' depression lias overtaken the manufac- turing and commercial interests of the country," yet shrinkage in value was a matter which it was impossible " for him or any other Finance Minister to guard against in advance"; and that "as they (the people) get bettor bnrnnlns for their money tliaii before, it is, on the wliole, an advantage, and not an in.jur.v to tlie i)eo- pie"; and, therefore, that " wliat Is bad for tlie revenue is. on tlie wliole. good for the country." Driven by his opponents as to bis trade policy, he declared ; It docs not matter whether ynur market Is four millions or forty millions or four hundreJ millions, over-production will always produce dis- tress. Nor does it much niiitter for that par- ticular ptirposo whether free trade or protection is the policy. And witii tliese e.Ki'Uses. and these plati- tudes, he niarclied on to the doleful tune of a two-million delicit, a twenty-seven million drop ill tiiide. a ihree-ciuarter of a million J increase In expenditure, and an eight and a half million addition to the debt. In lYbruary. 1S77, he came to the front again, and declared " that the year IS?.")-"*! was one of an exceedingly critical character, which would be hmg re- j memlicrcd in our financial history." Well It miglit lie. Trade was dimiiiisliing. and went on to diminish. Revenue was de- creasing, and gav(> no liope or anticipation of rising again. 'IMie only things that were rising were tlie taxes and the debt, and they were rising wilii dizzy rajiidity. Still. I the Finance Minister at tliat time was hope- ful. He pitdied liis song to a cheerful key, and said " tlicre was good reason for sup- liosiiig tliat we luid seen iirolialily tlie last of the di'iiressioii." He marshalled the facts of increased circulation, deposits in the savings bnnl remission on cojil and suf^ar and glass amounts to $18,000,000. (•A\.\ii.\'s iii:i;T. Now, I sluill ask the attention of the House for a moment to the position of oiu- debt, and 1 wish to put ou record a .simple and brief statement, so that any one who reads tliat statement may not fall into the error that the whole of tlie debt, as it exists to- diiy, has been incurred by tlie Dominion for Dominion purposes, and I wish as well to show briefi.v the purposes for which the debt has been incurred. There was assumed for the four provinces, in 18()7. .?7T,5OO,000 of delit. Tiiere has been assumed for the provinces, since— and that is something with which nobody quarrels, because it is a subsidy to the provinces to lielp liie provinciiil Koverninonta to carry on their legislation, relieved them of the necessity of imi)osiiig iieavier taxes— tliero has been asstiiiicd since then an additional (U'bt of .S;{1.;):?o.ll.s, makinf: a total of .flOJ),- 4;;ii|ll.'S assumed on behalf of tlie provinces. Tlie total net debt on 30th June, 1804, amounts to .Si:i(i.is;!,0-J0. Deducting from this the amount assiuiied for the provinces, and you have a net Dominion debt, from l.SCiT to date, iiu'iirred by the Dominion l"or Dominion purposes, iinioimtinj,' to .$ll!(>,7r)2,- 881. Tills Rives a yearly aveiajye of a little over live million dollars. What have we to set against that ? Upon the Intercolonial, more than l.ooo miles in leiigtii, tlie ciipital expenditure has been .$44,9(50,424. On our canals, the great waterway and artery of tlie central i)art of this Dominion, at the expenditure on whidi nobody cavils— no- body would be content as a Canadian if tliest' ijinals did not exist, and if they were not deepened and iniproveil to suit tlie needs of commerce— on our canals we have expended .$41,7(K).038. And the Canadian I'aciiic Uailway, wlilch was reviled and abused and looked ui)oii as the most desperate scheme that sensilile men ever conceived and placed before a bo»U,- 3(!9,288. Thus you will find that $t'8.(!l(!.407 more than has been added to tho Dominion debt has been expended oy vapital account for the services of this country. Now, Sir. that Is a plain flaicnieiii of the debt as it stands, and, taking that into account and th? as sets, the first three items that I liavt? men- tioned, if there were no more, tliere Is sulHcient .lustilication for tlie assumption and maintenance of a net debt <>f !i!i;{7,0()0,- (MK). Wlieu you come to another view of the case tliere Is somothiupr more to be said. If you will take the actual interest, you will lind that whereas In 1808 we paid 4-.">l per cent, in 1894 we paid 2 1)1 per cent. Tho net Interest paid per head, 1808, was $1.29 : in 1873 it was $1.31 ; in 1878 it was $1.58 ; in 1889, $1.80 ; and in 1894 it was $1.79, or 7 cents loss than in 1889. Tho cheapenin,!,' of money, the lowering of the rate of inter- est makes tho b>u-den of the debt smaller in proportion to tho size of the debt, so that at tho present time, wltli our credit, wo can carry almost twice the amount of debt that we could have carried in 1807, and have th" |)er capita burden no more. Tho net Inter- est paid In 1888-9 was $8,843,539. and in 1894, !?8.994,788, only about $100,000 of an in- crease. Canada's oni.i(iATio\s. Standing at tliis point and looking out upon tlie future, we are confronted with out ui)on the future, we are confronted with certain obllsatioiit: and wo sliould not be fair to ourselves, if In maklnff a financial statement we did not In-^lude these obllsa- tlons. I propose to do so. We have oblip:a- tions current to the amount of $0,543,400 ; l)elnR in the shape of subsidies to the Inter- national Railway Company, to the Qu'Ap- pelle and Lonp Lake Railway Company, to the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Com- pany, to the China and Japan Service Steam- ships, and to the Australian Service Steam- ships, which are provided for by yearly appropriation and which amount to $0,543.- 400. Wo have railway siibsldios under cdh- tract of .$2,257,059 ; also railway subsidies granted, but not under contract, which tho department tells me will i)robably come under contract, amounting to $2,587,257. Thou, to linisli the St. Lawrence Canal sys- tem, widening and deepening the canal ac- cording to the demands presented by tho Minister tho other day. we must spend $0,- 000,000. But as I am taking this from tho 1st of July. 1895, I estimate that $5,000,000 will have to be spent after that time. These canals must be linished independent of any consideration of tho party In power, as this work is a part of the policy of both parties. This makes a total of tlieso liabilities of .*!;9,844,310. These are liabilities that are cur- rent or probable. Now, Sir, that makes out- side of what has been and will be provided foi- in tlie yearly appropriations, .'i;9,844.31G, wlilch will accrue within a period of ycavi not very far distant— within three, four or five years at the farthest. Taking It at four years, that gives an expenditure of $2,401,- 000 per year on capital account, or very little more than the amount we lay up out of consolidated revenue to make a sinking fund as against the public debt. There is also a subsidy by special Act to the King- stou. Smith's Falls and Ottawa Railway 1 of $250,t!80, and a transport subsidy to the ! Hudson Bay Railroad $l.(i00,000. These fall : in the list of contingent liabilitles,wljicli,wheu i they accrue will be charged to railway sub- I sidy account. Besides these there is the statutory provision for the Fast Atlantic Service, which, however, when the liability accrues, must be satisfied from consolidated I revenue fund, assisted, if necessary, by eco- nomies in other services, and which, there- fore, will not necessitate a call upon capital, occupying as it will a similar position to the China and Japan and the Australian ser- : vices. And what I desire to do, what I think it good policy to do, what I am going to strive as earnestly as I can to do. is this : 1 to make the revenue cover current expenses and to bring the capital expenditure, over and above the consolidated revenue sur- plus, if there be any, to be equal to or not greater than the yearly sinking fund, 1 which, while It will allow a capital expendl- i ture of not less than $2,500,000 from this on, IK would iiiit Increase tlip (Itlit ;i sincle "Irillar. If lares mi your railways mid <''• ""t '"> 'l«'«»i'"y or .ripiile services whicii tiie revenue and expon.litniv for i8<),-,. ! aie necessary for tiie country. (luw is it to- !ti;. Tin" revenue for IStM-lK"). .is nctu- i ''"J' • ^''or interest on debt, for ciiarges of ally accnie.l and estimaled to a.-crue nianagement. for sinklnir fund and for Do- will be say ^33,800,000. The estimated l>et- "i'"'""' sulisidies. wiii.-li are beyond our tenneiit of revenue for ISO-VOC-and this j '■""'»•■"''• ♦''^''''' '•"< "" t'^'iiiiii't'' lor the year Is proof of my faith in better times, ami ! lSJ»'>-»<'i' tlie ex- .$1.2(10.000. That is. on the taxation as It l>«'"l(t.l(;s exists to-day. That would mak.« a revenue j f^''" *'>'^s^ t^^'o sets of charges. That leaves for 189.5-90 of $.S.-).0n0.00(). Now. Sir. when i >""" "'"»"* l*^ f>'" 1^ uiiilions of leeway, on expenditures wiiich you mav sav are con- Sir UiriT.Min CAUTWRiailT. Von had ^,.„„,^„,^ ,,.^„. ^.j^,, ,^.,^.,^,,;^.^, ^^ ,„^^^. ^ better divide that last amount, as is cus- ^lance at the Estimates will show that tliere tomary. State what amount is expected from „,,,.p j.^^,,, increases in not a singl(> one of Customs, and what amount from .-^xclso. ^,,^1,,^ „.„„ „„. ,.,,^.,.,,,i„„ „( .|.,.„,^. ,„„, o,„u. Mr. rOSTHU. I have simply lumped tlie merce. whicli is an iulaut department, aud amount, and have not with lue the tlgtires of even witli tlie sii^lir increase that it has tlie tliree items of which this is th(> total, had tliis ycir. that department has not The Estimates for 1S9.">-:K> liave been iaid grown to undue proportions so far as its before tho House. It was the desire of the I clerical work Is concerned. Well, Sir. out- Oovoi-iiment, a desire. I think, whicli they 1 side of that. Penitentiaries have been cut shared cordiiilly and unitedly that so far as down ifaO.OOO— I am reading round ligures possible under the prosLuit cotidiiion of —Civil (Jovernment. taking into ac'-ount things, and until an equilibrium cmiid be even the large increase of statuior.v allow- establishcd between revenue and expendl- ances. has been cut down ^30,000 ; Legisla- ture, the expenditures for the coming year tioii. .'sl.MKi.Odd ; Arts and Agriculture. .S3. 100 ; should be cut down to as low a point as (Juarantine. ."f.'W.Ooo ; Ininiigration. .^^TO.OOO ; possible under tlie present condition of Pensions, ?814 ; Militia. .?2(i3,398 ; Railways things, i^onsistont with the efflciency of and Canals. ^IS.'i.OnS ; Public Works. !i!875,- tho public service. Now. Sir. an investi- •'>'-'.". In tlie item of public works we have gation of those estimates will show that i for a number of years been expending on an there are certain estimates whicli are statu- average about .f2,000.000 per year. AVheu tory. and which we do not vote, aud conse- ' the revenue was buoyant and tho treasury (luontly which we c.'iunot cliange. There was full, we were generous iu our approprhi- aro others which we control, such as the tioiis for the public works of the country ; revenue collecting branch, but which Is '. and the history of this Government during only controllable to a certain limited t^'^ ♦'"'t^ it has been in power since 1878. extent, because, if you collect customs, col- will show, I think, on the wliole. a broad- lect excise, collect post otlice fees, collect i '"inded and generous sustenance of the !'.• pntilie works of the rountr.v, nnil a (UspDsi- tloii ti) alfl tlu'in so far as It cDuld possibly )k> .loiH'. My lion. fri(.-ii-.i>im( ; t (ceaii and Uiver .Ser- vice, $.")T. ; Indians, $S.",,(mmi ; Mounted I'oiice. S].",.(HK). Mr. MIT.I.S (Rot li well I. How is that savini: effected ? Mr. FoS'l'Kli. It is eff,M-ie,l l.y a re-luction of the force, a reduction tliat will not idVeet the etticicncy of the force so fai as the legi- timate needs of the country are couceriuMl. The reduction has been rendered possible in two ways : in the tirst place, the cost of living is constantly decreasing. Years ago when the beef supplies and tiie like of that had to be taken long distances, the cost was large. Now all this is raised in the country itself, and the cost therefore has diminished. The force is well managed, and tlie luimber of men which, up to this time, has iKien in the nciglibourliood of 1)0(1. it is proitosed to reduce by a number sufticient to bring down the yearly expenditure to the sum which is mentioned in the Estimates. There will still l)e left a force. I think,— I speak under correction— of about 70i) men. and armed as they never were before, with improved rifles and Maxim guns, wliicli makes a smaller force mucli luore effective than even a larger force was without those arms. Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT. I did not observe an explanation of the reduction on militia. Mr. I"oSTI-;R. That would probably coiuo lietter on the Estimates when the Minister liiiiisflf i> lure, I iciid the iiinoiint. .■SL'n;!.- (HNt. In Customs collection there is a re- duction of iJ.'IMMH) ; E.xcise, .$'J1,()0<) ; Culling Timlier. .5'J.">,(KH» ; Railways and Canals. $'2l,- .:{,S7,f,IS. Now, on the statutorii's arising from ciiuses lliat I have mentioned. Increased Interest on the public debt :inil management of tile debt lieing tin; chief one. and the subsidii'S to provinces, there Is an increase of JdOT.T-^. Mr. MILLS (Botliwell). Is the land boaiM at \Vinni[)eg aliolisheil V .Mr. FOSTER. We do not abolisli tiie laud lioard at Winnipeg, but we introduce eco- nomy into it. and lessen the expen.ses (,f the hoard of management. We have, ther.'fore, a net decrease of $1.(!00.000, on a total esti- mate of expenditures, statutory, lixed and controllable, whicli is as far as tiie (Jovern- iiieiit lelt it possiltle to go and keep the services on a footing of etticieiicy. In some of tiiese there can. I think, be very little If any more reduction. It Is possible thsit iu some of them a still further reduction might take place. In tlu' item of Civil Govern- ment, I have no hesitation in saying that the expenditure is pretty large. We liave reduced that tliis year by a considerable amount, and I am sure I am not speaking Ijeyond tiie liook. wlieii 1 say tliat i! is tiie intention of tiie Government thorotiglily to look into the matter, and to make ecoiomies where it is possible to mtike them as regards civil government. Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT. T want to remind tlie lion, gentleman, before lie goes to another subject, that he promised to state I what Supplementary Estiiuates \vould be ! required for the service of the present jear. , He promised, in fact, to bring them down. Mr. FOSTER. I did. 1 Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT. It would ; be l>etter. before he goes off the Estimates, j to let us know what they are. I Mr. FOSTER. I cannot tell my hou. I friend what they are, but I have made my I estimate for tlie expenditure of this year •20 on tlio bnsis of the Estimates that we shall (<>r ...iwi. I. ration whctli.-i- \v.> shonhl go out piDvldi". '"'" niiotluT year facing a lar^f or fvi-n a Sir UKMIAUl) CAUrWUKaiT. You pro miscd it. cannot tlo cvcrytliinK in n fow days Sir IlKMIAUl) ('AUrWKirrHr. rromlsf is out' fliint: and iicrrorniancc is another. Mr. I,.\.\"I)i:UKI.N. 'I'licii, I nndi'i-staiid. Uii'rc will be Siii)iiU'ini'ntar.\ Kstiuiati'S in coniifction with m-xt year? ronsidcraldc dt'lielt. Tlu* (Sovoninifiil \\:i> coiiMidfMvd that (iiio.stlon. and It 1ms conic t'> the conclusion lliai it is not tln" wisest tldn^ Mr. I"(»SI'i;u Well, I promised It. but I t,, do; that what wo have to do as a (!ov- ernincnt, tliat what we must do as a House, and iu that course wo must prestiine that the country will sustain us. Is t(» establish an tHIiiiiilirinin between expenditure and in- come, to cstablisli an e(|uilibrium between expenditure and income in the easiest way We can possibly accomplish it. and do it Mr. roSTEU. I have already stated that for tlie salve of beiieiiiin:: the liiuinces of tliere would not be aiiv. Coining; back to the country iti the future, as tlie mainteii- thc revenue and expeiidiiure for IS'.t.V'.ii;. I ance of our credit is of far-rea<'hinLr cousc- havi stated that the reveiuie expected was ipieiice. When tin' revenues were buoyant $3.'»,iM)0,000 ; the ostlmiite of expenditure Is and wo had larire snrplnses. this (ioverii placed at ^:!(i,s;U,4."s. It is not the rule that meiit dealt witli the services of the coniitry the actual expenditure comes up lo tlie full ucnci-nusly, and many say lavishly, but tli:n limit of the lOstimates voted. :ind I liavi' we dealt with the services uf ilie couniry i,'iven myself a little leeway in the estimate ;;ener(iusly iioimdy can deny. The Covern- of expenditure for the next year, wliicli I ] ment had surpluses of revenue, and they have jdaced at ^:!i!.Too.tKin. Witli ;i revenue s.-iid. Wi- "ill carry on the servici-s of tlie of .s;;.-i,(M KM 1(1(1 ;ind an expenditure of .S;!t;.- T'lll.lKMI. ihele will be a delieil oil llie ollcra- tjoll. of .S1,7(HI.(MM». i:<^rii.iiii;itM in iik maint.mm i>. Now. while it is I rue that duriiiir lln' pa-^i year, wiiilst ihe iiriint and stress of the de- pression was sustaineil by Ihe country, whilst liusiiK'ss had everythiiii: it could do to sirutr- ^'le inanfiilly, as it did, .-ind f.-iiriy successfully Willi its disadvanta>;es. whilst the i>eo|)le themsolves were eeonomiziufr. it was not thought wise to do aiiytiiiim' to add to tlie burden of tlie times liy impesiny; increased taxation. And so. as reeards the deficit of the last year, and the deticit of the jire- seiit year, a lar,t.'er one. it was not proposed. and is not lu'oposed. io replace it by oy- ■■letin;.' additii>ii;ll taxes from tli" iieople. ]».nt it becomes ii different matter wIkmi. haviii;.' bad two (It^ficits and starting; out upon the year in advance, wiili ilie tuiii In the tide and the betterment which is visible. I thinlc. on ;i]l sides, it becomes :i dilTerent matter. I say. .'iiid a subject for very close and cari'ful consideration whether it is ad- visable, In point of .ijood financial manasje- nient, in point of keepins intact th. credit of the country, which above all thinjrs we must maintain, and keep it up to tlie present high standard— it becomes a grave question country, but at the saiue time out of those biioyanr revenues we will relieve tlu> peo- ple from a portion of liie t.-ixation. And tliey did it. Ill ISJMi and IS'.il the u\x on raw siisrar. as we in the Ilotisi' well know, was taken off. and that betieiit was confer- red on the ipeojile of the Country, a benefit wliidi will fully apiicar wIkmi I read the figures of Ilie imports since that tiiiit>, and make ,'i caleiilaiioii of wliai would have ac- crued at that rate of duty. In 1S!)1. under tlio n(>w tariff, tliere were imported four- teen miilioii odd pounds of sugar, the duty on which. tnkiiiL: n average of the old rate, would liave been i^2-~.- 47i ; In 1S')2 the (piantity was yi;7,0(K»,(t(i(i pounds, ilie duly on which would have been S."i.-_'(i(i.(i(Mi : ill is'.i.-, ilii. (lUiiiitiiy was li.VJ,- ."idd.dod pounds, tile dniy on whicli woiiltl have been $4,000,000 ; iu 1S94 the (pian- tity was 30.S,OOO.Od(i pounds, the duty on whicli would have been .s;4.SL'l,ddd ; in 1S0.J the actual import and the esti- mated receipts on the same basis would have shown, imports. ;$10,0i)d.- ddd liolMnis, llie duly oil wllicll at tlie old rate would have been .S4.!)T.>.700. That re- lates to the article of sugar alone, the tax on which was paid certainly out of the consumers' pocVets, it being a tax not on an article grown In the country, but on 21 ii raw iinxliici lirnuKlit in, tlic tax on wliieli must l»o paiil by tlic msiihht nf flic jiriirlc, If lion. in«>inl)ors will a.'?;'. Some one may fairly say. tliat if tliL> duty had romaiiifd at tlii> old rail', tlii'i'i- would not liavr Itci'ti so iarni' ;iii iiiipiiriaiioii. Ciiitiii;,' oil' wliaicvcr pro- poi'iion you please. y()\i will SI ill liavc an aiiiiiunt of from .< I ■'i.i m it i.i m lu in sI'.mmki.inni rL'iitoved fro;n tlio pcoi)l(>'s slioiildcrs. 'I'liis has l«'eu operative diiriii;.' the time when Wi- had siirpl'is. and also diirin;: ilie linie when the pooi)le. (•s|)i'ciali.\ durin^.' the pipsi two years, having heen passin:.' thriiuj:li a period of dei>ression. and wliiU have heiMi call'-d hard times in Cinada. Now. .Mr Speaker, the conn- try, I think, will not (tuarrel witii tlu> (Jovernment if. when ilie time Inis come when We tiiinic ii Itest for Ilie credit of the eouiitr>- and iis general f:ood. to secure an eiiiiililirium lietweeii expenditure and re- venue, when We sliow oiir bona tide> hy cut till!,' down the controllable exjieni.itniv of tlie country to ilie extent of .'i;'_'.40(),()U(i, and we have Just done our duty in tliat iei;ird— I think the country will not compiiin, and this House will not complain, if we ask the iieojile in the ,vear that is to come not to pa.v back '.<> us an eipiivaleiit of the old rale of duty on sufTitr, but to sive us one-third of tlie amount of duty placed on it before ls!»l, thus seciirinvr to the pco|)le a remis- sion of two-lhirds of ihe laxaiion on sujrar for the future, and askin;; them simiily for :\ return equivah'Ui lo uiie-tliird of the (lid inijiost. So it is propositi to jilace one- half cent jier iiound on raw su^rar. and to Increase the i)roleclion iiimn relined suy;.'\r and the articles into wliicli smrar larjrely en- ters proportiomitel.v, and only projiortionatc- l.v, to the increased tax of half a cent on raw siifrar. That on the Imports which will jirobably come into the country this year will -.'ive >i;i.-_'Oi»,(tbo or .Sl.lir.O.ooo. That is not quite all we w:int. We must be can^ fill if We are soiiifi to place taxes on the people fin* the avowed purpose of lillinK up Ihe j;ap between revenue and expenditure, not to make the mistake wliich my hon. friend opposite made, when he put on a larue inxaiioii. but yet did not till the uap- We U'.UHt add eiioiich to restore the equlll brhini. we iiiiist be sure that It will be enou'/h, iind we must taivc a little more than we estimate at llii' jireseiit time to be eiioiiyrh in mder to l>e cer- lain ilMt wliat we propose to do shall be fully and tlioroiiKlily done. So that a liltle more Is necess;ir>. and I pro- pose to lm|iose :i sliuht :idilltii>nal ta\ upon disijlled spirits. The excise duly on dislilled spirits is now si. .Mi pi'i- ;;alloii. and I propose to add :.'ii jier cent iier ualloii. ihiis m.ikin;: the excise duly .Sl.Tii. Till' CuH- Imuis diii> o'l spirits is now iS-.ll''.. per i.'allon. and i jiropo.se to make that ."<-.-"•. an Increase* c.f V2Vj cents. That. I think, will brim: iiiio liie revenue :ib >iii .v.-.iio.iKio I,,' .SCiio.iMMt. which will cive us .■ iaiily well, may briiiK us out a litlle lo the ;;ood. which cerliiiiily will Hot lie cleploied by the country. To show rill" bona iides of Hie < iiiveriinient in doiim tlieir share, and of this House in snbiiiitliiif,' to its share of the belterment. not only have two and a half millions of dollar.s been taken from the controllable esiiinates of the comilry for the year, Imt we jiropose .as well to intermit for ilie succeeding year what we have lieen in tin- habit of irivinj: with a v.eiieri)iis hand namely, the aid by way of inikNUie su'isidies to railways to be constructed. From 1884, when the iiolicy was first ad- opted, until the i>reseiit time we have ex- pended over . its public services well siipiilii'd, piiblie services wliicli in a time like tbis, with our (Irst-ratc eciuipiuent and lirsi- rate faeilities, we may faifly dispense with Increasing for a year or two, while times are as tliey ai'o. I dc^sire, Mi'. Spealcer. to tlianl; you and the House very heartily lor the forbearance with which you have listened to my rather Idu^j exposition. 1 have here the resolutions, they have .just, been i)Ut into my liinids. and I woidd rather revise them bel'ore I definitely lay them U|)on the Table. Sir IMCII.MM) tJ-VnTWHICHT. Very Well : you (an lay them on the 'i'able at eijrlit o'clock. A\'e will call it si,\ o'clock now. It bein;;: si.\ o'clock, the Speaker left the Chair. After Recess. WAYS AXU Mi:.\xs. .Mr. I'dSTKU. Mr. Speaker, .all that 1 shall have to do at the present time is simply t(. mention the resolutions wliich 1 pro))ose to i)lace before the committee. As I intimated in the remarks I made this afternoon, there is to he imposed and levied on distilled spirits an additional excise duty of 20 cents per sal'ou, and the lirst resoluiiou makes provision for that. Sir KICHARD CARTWRIGIIT. Have you sot the resolutions i)rinted ? Mr. POSTER. They are in type-writln},', not printed. The second resolution simply rei)eals the sections of the i)resent Tariff Act which are to be rearransed. Tlien fol- low the resolutions with reference to the addition of 12i^ cents per {gallon on import- ed spirituous li(]iiors. Then, there are a certain number of articles into which stiR.nr enters more or less largely. As the duty is incrciiscd tii)ou sugar, It becomes ueces- sary to make a corresponding adjustment with reference to these ; and, as nearly as possible, 1 hiive made just the proportional increase. ('ondeusod nulk, which was ,'! cents a i)ound, will bo 314 cents. Condensed coffee, and such like goods, will be 'S'i per cent instead of ;iO per cent. Sweetened biscuits, which were So per cent, will be 'JT'/j per cent. Fruits, wliich were 2 ceius a pound, will be 2'/i cents. Fruits, preserv- ed In brandy or in spirits, which were )?1.9(>, will be $2.1MI. r.aints and colours, ground in , spirits, and spirit varnish iind lac(]iiers. wliich were $1, will be .$1. 121/0. Jellies, jams, and preserves, which were 3 cents, will be ;{',4 cents. All sugar, above sixteen Dutch standard in colour, and all reliiied sugars, will be 1 14-100 cent a pound. Sugar not above sixteen Dutch standard, will be {<2 cent a pound. Glucose, or grape sugar, which is 1 cent a poiiiul. becomes 1^4 cent. Sugar candy, and sweet things, which were ;».") jior cent, become Y2 cent a iiouiid. and ■■!.") per cent. .Syru[)s and molasses of all kinds, which were % cent a pound, become % cent. Molasses, which was I'.j cent a gallon at the standard test, becomes l';4 cent. Then follows a reso- lution with reference to beet root sug.'ir. ' For several years before the abolition of tli" sugar dtities we had operations carrii'd on ill beet root sugar making ; and wlicn the duty ^\ils removed from raw sugar, a , bounty, e(iiiivaleiit to nearly 2 cents ;i pound, about the eiiuiv.alent of the duty on raw sugar, which w.as taken off, was grant- ed to beet root sugar, and that has been continued from time to time. It is jiro- posed to continue that for two years ; bur. Instead of giving 2 cents a pound bounty, it is proposed now to give 1 cent a pound by way of bounty, and 14 cent by way of duty, making the total aid to the beer i root industry, IK cents ,1 pound. I XI) EX Pago Course u£ Traflc U Ci-clit of Canadii 10 Ciistonis taxation 12 Pibt, the! public 7 Debt, tlio public, for what puvposi's incurred 1*5 1 uitios on Sugar aiKl Spirits -1 lONix'Uditnr'', 1S!):M)1 5 I'^xpondituro on Capital Acrouii; V I'ailurps in business 11 Financial position of Canada • i^-i3 ObliRations of Canaila 17 I'alhvays and Sliippinn: 12 Kevcnne, lS0.'!-!)4 " Uevenne and Expendituro, ls;i)l-!i5 '5 ISHr.-Oi) I'S Savinss, increase iif 10 Trad? comparison between 1S71-7!) and lSSn-91 M-1'' Trade comparison with otlier <'ountries 13