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 Vv 
 
SPEECH 
 
 OF 
 
 HON. CLIFFORD SIFTON 
 
 ON 11 IK 
 
 YUKON A I )M 1 X ISTR ATIOX 
 
 liOUSI': OF CO.MMO^S'S. OTTAWA 
 
 .iOiii MAltC'II AND iTii Al'KIL, 1809 
 
 I 
 
 OTTAWA 
 
 (JiiVKii NM Kxr 1' i; I XTiNc p,ri;i:.\u 
 1899 
 
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 Hou$e of Commons Bebates^ 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECH 
 
 OF 
 
 HON. CLIFFORD SIFTON, M.P. 
 
 ON 
 
 THE ADDRESS 
 
 OTTAWA, 30tu MARCH and 4tii APRIL, 1899 
 
 Thuksday, 30th March, 1899. 
 
 The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Sifton). It is manifestly impossible 
 for me to attempt any reply to the lengthy 
 speech of hearsay, mingled wUh Insinuations 
 which the hon. gentleman from Plctoii (Sir 
 Charles Uibbert Tupper) has given ; and it 
 Is necessary, therefore, to content myself 
 to-night with moving the adjournment of 
 tlio debate. However, before doing so I 
 ir.ay malte a remark or two. I understand 
 that my hon. friend from Plctou Is not go- 
 ing to be in the House when it reassembles. 
 I may be permitted to express my regret 
 that after the language that he has used In 
 reference to myself this evening, he is not 
 going to be present when parliamentary 
 rules will permit me to reply to him. 
 
 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. If 
 the hon. gentleman will postpone his reply, 
 I will be back. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. 
 Will the hon. gentleman ' here on Tues- 
 day ? 
 
 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. 1 
 cannot congratulate the hon. gentleman on 
 the nature of the speech that he has made, 
 when he wag aware of the fact that he was 
 not going to be here when a reply couM be 
 
 made to him. That, however, does not par- 
 ticularly affect the merits of the case, al- 
 ' though it may affect the esteem in which 
 j the hon. gentleman may be held by mem- 
 { bers of the House. I desire, further, to 
 j say, before moving the adjournment of the 
 debate, that very much of what the hon. 
 gentleman has insinuated, if not stated, I 
 know to be false, I know it to be altogether 
 unfounded. Many of the other things, of 
 course, I have no personal knowledge of, 
 though I shall deal with them to some ex* 
 tent when I have an opportunity of doing 
 so. The insinuations which the hon. gen- 
 tleman has interlarded throughout his 
 speech, that there was some personal relation 
 between myself and any Impropriety of any 
 official in the Yukon district, I characterize 
 as absolutely and entirely and altogether un- 
 truthful. I give the hon. gentleman credit 
 for having sense enough to know that they 
 are untrue. I cannot imagine that the hen. 
 gentleman who has been so long in public 
 life, has not sense enough to know that a 
 Minister of the Crown would not be Im- 
 properly connectfid with any Improper act 
 of any officials In that distant country. If 
 such Improper act tLere was. He will And 
 out before he gets through with this trans- 
 action that If he has believed what he has 
 tried to lead this House to believe, and 
 tried to lead this country to believe, 
 If he has entertained that belief, he has been 
 
3 
 
 N 
 
 an extremely silly aad un extremely foolish 
 man. Now, I only want to add this : We 
 all know that the cliartfo? which have been 
 made In regard to the offlclaLs of the Yukon 
 distiiotyiave appertained largely to the oltl- 
 clals of the Gold Commissioner's office and 
 to the Gold Commissioner. We know t}iat 
 the chnr^e lias been that the Gold Commis- 
 sioner and his clerk, to use the language of 
 the hon. gentleman, robbed the people who 
 went into tliat country and attempted to 
 carry on mining operations, that he was dls- 
 lionost, and possibly guilty of malfeasance of 
 otflce— that Is to say, the Gold CommLssloner 
 and his clerk as nobody else could do It be- 
 cause it was mining property with which 
 they liad to deal. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I 
 am not prepared at this late hour to go into 
 ihe subject luily. I desire to call the atten- 
 tion of tile House to this fact, that in the 
 desjiatches which are before us this even- 
 ing in the evening papers we have a tele- 
 grapliic report which comes direct from 
 l>awson City in regard to the operations of 
 the commission which was issued to Mr. 
 Ogilvie for the pui-pose of Investigating these 
 cliarges, and before moving the adjourn- 
 ment, I will take the liberty of reading it. 
 
 Sir CHARLES HilBBERT TUPPER. 
 Does the telegram come from Dawson di- 
 rt? ct ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. If 
 
 the hou. gentleman were here on Tuesday, 
 he would l)e still more restless before I get 
 ilTough. I desire to read this report, because 
 It Is evident that it was not the patriotic 
 setitiuients which the hon. gentleman ex 
 pressed before he sat down, that induced 
 him to make this statement immediately 
 befm-e Good Friday, deliberately talking 7 
 hours so as to prevent a reply being made. 
 A cliild of ten years could see what the hon. 
 gentleman was doing. He desires that his 
 speech shall go to the country without con- 
 tradiction and inat it shall be left uncontra- 
 dif.ted for several days. The best contra- 
 diction that conld be given the wholesale 
 statements of tuo hon. gentleman Is this : 
 We have a telegraphic report. As to whether 
 this is true or not, an authentic report will 
 come along in a short time, and then tho 
 hon. gentleman will know whether It Is true 
 or nut. but I fancy it is. The report Is as 
 follows :— 
 
 The Hoyal Cnmmisslon of Inquiry opened on 
 Febu'P.iy 22. Ample notice was glv^n, but ouly 
 two sorlea of charKea were preforrod. The flrst 
 was laid by the miners' committee appointed on 
 August 2Ctb. The second, that of mairsiiHiiaoe In 
 ofTce, was laid by the proprietors of the "Nugget" 
 newspaper against Thomas Fawcott. Both rar- 
 tlcs requested p"rml3f!lon to wlthdniw the char- 
 ges on the second c'ay. The alleged reason was 
 that the terms of the commission limited the In- 
 vcBtigatlou to charges concivning acts previous to 
 August 25. The complaint of the prosecutors wae 
 that the Investigation was too narrow on that 
 account. r}i?r were permitted to retire, but not 
 to withdraw the charges. Comralesloner OgllvIe 
 continues the investigation. 
 
 Mr. Pawcett was cleared completely of (be mal- 
 ffasance charge. No clerk in the Oold Commis- 
 sioner's Office thus far has been Incrlmlnpicd. 
 
 Oun witnesii testified tbat he was umployed by 
 the Young Conservative Association of Ottawa to 
 gather Information for political purpose?. The 
 commission continues In session. 
 
 TuEHiMV, 4tii April, 1899. • 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Slftou), (Brandon). It is not very 
 often, Mr. Speaker, that there Is a gen- 
 eral consensus of opinion in Canada upon 
 any one subject ; but I think that prior 
 to the time when the member for Pictou 
 (Sir Charles Uibbert Tupper) made his ad- 
 dress on last Thursday evening, there was 
 a very general consensus of opinion through- 
 out Canada that this debate had outlived Its 
 u.sefulness, and that it was time for the 
 House of Commons to get down to business. 
 But that hon. gentleman contrived to bring 
 a subject into the debate and to deal with 
 it in such a way that the continuance of 
 the debate becomes a parliamentary neces- 
 sity. The debate opened, Mr. Speaker, with 
 a very long and very vigorous speech by the 
 I respected and experienced gentlemm who 
 leads the Opposition, and he was followed 
 by the right hon. Prime Minister in a speech 
 which I think both the right hon. gentleman's 
 friends and his opponents will concede to be 
 a speech which will live in the annals of 
 parliamentary debate. It has been com- 
 plained that the right hon.. gentleman was 
 too severe with the leader of the Opposition ; 
 but. Sir, when it is considered that for the 
 last two years the hon. gentleman who loads 
 the Opposition has been going through the 
 country denouncing the leader of ihe Gov- 
 ernn^ut and bis colleagues and all their ac- 
 tions In the most unmeasured way, and 
 with the utmost freedom of language, I 
 think the time had come for the light hon. 
 leader of the Government to administer a re- 
 buke to the hon. gentleman for the utter- 
 ances which he had been making and whicli 
 were shown to be altogether unfounded. 
 And, Sir, I may say that when the right hon. 
 gentleman was delivering his address, my 
 sympathies were with him, and not with the 
 leader of the Opposition ; but since that 
 time, while the debate has gone on, I must 
 confess that my sympatliles have been with 
 the leader of the Opposition ; because, Mr. 
 Speaker, when it is remembered that that 
 hon. gentleman has served his party well and 
 faithfully for many long years, when it is 
 remembered that whatever faults he may 
 liave had in public life, lack of loyalty or 
 devotion to his party was not one of them, 
 and when it is now seen that the hon. gen- 
 tleman Is castigated in this House by his 
 political opponents, and day after day" goes 
 by, and not one man on the Opposition side 
 of the House, not one of his followers, not 
 The hon. member for York, N.B., (Mr. 
 I'"oster), who sits beside him, will rise in his 
 place to defend him, to say that he was right 
 
 ■A 
 
and that my right hon. friend was wrong, and 
 that days afterwards It la to be left to the 
 hon. geutlomau'a sou to defend hlni, then I 
 pay my sympathies go out to the leader of the 
 Opposition. It had to be left to the hon. gen- 
 tleman's son to come to his rescue, and there- 
 fore I say my sympathy throughout is with, 
 the hon, leader of the Opposition. I would say 
 to hlni, If he will not consider It Impertinent, 
 coming from one so much younger and with 
 80 much less expeilence, that he has my 
 hearty sympathy and the sympathy of my 
 colleagues and friends on this side In his 
 unfortunate position. 1 might suggest to 
 the loyal party— that la, the parly which 
 has had loyally for Its stock-in-trade for a 
 great many years— that loyalty to their 
 leader would not be altogether out of place, 
 and that they would retain at least some 
 of the esteem of their political opponents 
 and of the people of the country If they pre- 
 Bented, outwardly at least, better Indica- 
 tions of loyalty and harmony In their own 
 ranks. , ,„ , 
 
 The hon. leader of the Opposition, If 1 
 may be pardoned for saying a few words 
 on this subject, with the skill which comes 
 from long experience, attempted, and 1 
 suppose, perhaps, succeeded to some ex- 
 tent, In placing some utterances which I 
 have made upon the tariff In an Incorrect 
 position. I do not wish to Imply that the 
 hon. gentleman In any way misrepresented 
 what I said. In the sense of giving out as my 
 utterances what I did not say ; but with 
 that skill which long parliamentary expe- 
 rience has given him, he adverted to my 
 remarks in such a way that a casual reader 
 would naturally Imagine that I had placed 
 myself In an illogical position. I wish for 
 Just a moment or two to say a few words 
 on that subject. The House will recollect. 
 Sir, that when we brought down our tariff 
 to this House, hon. gentlemen on the front 
 benches of the Opposition denounced It in 
 unmeasured and most vigorous terms. 
 There Is no member of this House who 
 will not remember how my hon. friend from 
 York (Mr. Foster) stood up, and with that 
 dramatic power which he has so success- 
 fully cultivated, held up his hand and call- 
 ed heaven to witness that he stood In this 
 House as the champion of Canadian work- 
 ingmen, who, by this improvident and in- 
 competent Government, were going to be 
 turned out of house and home. That is 
 the position he took. He lectured us for 
 hours upon the utter destruction which this 
 radical and revolutionary tariff was going 
 to bring upon this country ; and there was 
 not one indication In the position he took, 
 at least at that time, that he in any way 
 approved of the tariff we submitted or of 
 the lines of policy which we had indicated. 
 That was the position of these hon. gen- 
 tlemen then. But what is tnelr position 
 now ? Why, Mr. Speaker, the tariff has 
 gone into effect and has been shown to be 
 a great success. And when I stand before 
 this House, I am In the Judgment of every 
 Hon C S-1} 
 
 man who hears my voice and of the business 
 men of this country, when I say that the 
 sentiment of the people, ihe matured opin- 
 ion of the people. Is that the tariff has 
 been a success. 
 
 An hon. MEMBER. No. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. 
 Slfton). Yes, and these hon. gentlemen 
 have found that out They have found out 
 that their predictions have not been veri- 
 tied. What did they attempt to do when 
 they were in office V For many years, the 
 cry of high protection, extreme protection, 
 more protection and more taxes, whenever 
 anybody was In trouble, was the policy 
 which these hon. gentlemen followed ; but 
 you win remember, Sir, that a few years 
 ago the people began to cry out against 
 that policy. Hon. gentlemen opposite found, 
 when they summoned Parliament together, 
 that they were getting letters from their 
 followers and supporters saying that this 
 policy of protection had gone too far. 
 What was the result ? It was that they 
 were compelled to hold an Inquiry upon 
 the subject of that tariff and did hold a 
 long and careful Inquiry. If I recollect 
 aright, the hon. ex-Controller of Customs 
 (Mr. Wallace) and the late member for 
 Broekvllle (Mr. Wood) were the two gen- 
 tlemen who were sent ai-ound the country 
 to make Inquiries, and when these hon. gen- 
 tlemen came back, the late Government 
 brought down a tariff which, according to 
 the despatches from Ottawa, given out by 
 them was going to be reformed upon lines 
 favourable to the consumer. That was the 
 policy which the hon. member for York (Mr. 
 Foster) was forced to adopt by the attitude 
 of his followers In Parliament and by the 
 Inquiries which the gentlemen associated 
 with him In the Government had made. 
 The hon. member for York (Mr. Foster) 
 came down to Parliament with that policy. 
 He was strong enough with the Government 
 and the House of Commons tc^arry that 
 policy, and I apprehend 'hat he was even 
 strong enough with the Senate to carry 
 It, but he was not strong enough 
 with the manufacturers, and the re- 
 sult was that he was forced in this House 
 to modify It, Item after item, until the 
 mother of that tariff would not have known 
 It at all as It went out of the House. His 
 intentions were good certainly. He intend- 
 ed to revise the tariff upon lines favour- 
 able to the consumer, because that was the 
 sentiment of the country, but ho fotind he 
 could not do it, and he failed to do It ; 
 and Instead of coming down to the House 
 and admitting his failure, he was forced 
 to admit that the tariff he had brcight 
 down contained clerical errors. Explana- 
 tions of that kind. Mr. Speaker, do not de- 
 ceive anybody. We all make mistakes ; 
 we all start out to do things which we 
 find we cannot do as wc Intended, and the 
 hon. gentleman would have earned more 
 the respect of the community If he had 
 
'I 
 
 Bald that the Government was not In a 
 position to uiako the changes It contem- 
 plated. These hon. jreutlemeu know now 
 that that was the real desire of the people ia 
 18U4, and they know that when we came 
 Into pownr, without being tied to the chariot 
 wheels of any manufacturers, we did re- 
 vise the tariff on those lines. For that, 
 they denounced this Government In I'arlla- 
 ment. They said that our tariff was not 
 a success ; but It has been a success, as they 
 know. They know that the people have 
 approved of that tariff, and they cannot 
 take issue with us on that giound. What, 
 then, did they do V They turned around and 
 said that we did not change the tariff at 
 all. But did they not know that when we 
 laid it on the Table V 1 said ut Tcrth— and 
 that is what my hon. friend referred to, and 
 what my hon. friend froia Llsgar (Mr. lllch- 
 ardson), whom I do not sec present, found 
 fault with— I said that the tariff as an issue 
 between the tA»o political parties had ar- 
 rived at sucli a stage that it could not be 
 longer considered, and never, in all proba- 
 bility, would be considered an issue in the 
 same sense in which it had been an issue pre- 
 viously ; and I said that because hon. gen- 
 tlemen opposite k'iow that our tariff— a tariff 
 revised upon lines Indicating that raw mater- 
 ials would be made more free, and that the 
 consumer would be considered, but in which 
 the reducrious would be made In a careful 
 and moderate way so as not to destroy any 
 Industry— is in accord with the policy whicli 
 the people have approved of. They dare not 
 go before the people and attack us on that 
 ground. And, therefore, they intend to come 
 here, and they intend to go before the peo- 
 ple of this country to show what ? Why. 
 that they did not know what they were 
 talking about when they denounced us, and 
 that we actually have not changed the tariff 
 at all. 
 
 Did I mean, Mr. Speaker, that this Gov- 
 ernment had abandoned the traditional pol- 
 icy of th^gJ^iberai party, that we did not 
 intend, &s tne hon. member for East Toron- 
 to (Mr. Robertson) well said, to attack the 
 citadel of protection ? Not at all. I meant 
 that we Intended to carry out the policy 
 which we have laid before the people, and 
 which, so far as we have gone, we have car- 
 ried out carefully, consistently and as 
 thoroughly ns It was possible to do, In ac- 
 cordance with the well-understood wishes 
 of the people of Canada, as they are un- 
 derstood by the hon. gentlemen sitting there, 
 as well as by the hon. gentlemen sitting 
 here, that the tariff of Canada should be 
 dealt with upon lines more favourable to 
 the consumer, more favourable to the ex- 
 tension of trade, and In the direction of re- 
 moving all unjust restrictions from trade. 
 That is the policy which this Government 
 has laid down by the voice of its responsible 
 Finance Minister. 
 
 Then, I pointed out also, and I take the 
 liberty of pointing it out again, that there 
 was another point upon which the tariff 
 
 might be regarded as not being an issue. We 
 Introduced a clause providing for giving a 
 preference to Great Britain. That clause 
 has Icm attacked In a great many ways. 
 My hon. friend from West York (Mr. Wal- 
 lace) attacked it the other day. The hon. 
 gentleman will get his answer In due time 
 from the Government benches : he will get 
 it from the gentleman most competent to 
 deal with the subject, and most familiar 
 with the figures, and that answer, I appre- 
 hend, will be satisfactory to the people of 
 this country and to the followers of the Gov- 
 eruinout. But what I was pointing out was 
 that we had introduced a clause in the tariff 
 providing for preference to Great Britain. 
 That clause has been denounced by hon. 
 gentlemen opposite. Now, are they sincere 
 in that denunciation ? I do not mean to 
 transgress parliamentary rules by attacking 
 the sincerity of any hou. genlieman In this 
 House ; but I think I may attack the sin- 
 cerity of a party as a whole. Is the Conser- 
 vative party at this moment sincere or insin- 
 cere iu attacking and denouncing the prefer- 
 entiiil clause of our tariff? It is an easy 
 matter to settle that. If they were in power 
 to-morrow, would they repeal the preferen- 
 tial clause? That is a simple question. I ap- 
 peal to the sentiment of every man in this 
 House, when I make this statement, that, 
 notwithstanding all the denunciations of the 
 hon. gentlemen opposite, if they were placed 
 tipon the Treasury benches to-morrow with 
 a majority of four to one in this House, they 
 would not, and they could not, repeal that 
 clause. They could not get a House of Com- 
 mons elected in Canada pledged to, or known 
 to be in favour of repealing that clau.ie. 
 Then, I think, Mr. Speaker, if we have bo 
 fully, and so fairly, and so accurately, 
 gauged public opinion upon that important 
 phase of the tariff question as to put upon 
 the .Statute-books a provision that no politi- 
 cal party in this country* would repeal, we 
 may regard that phase of the tariff question 
 as being settled. 
 
 I thought that I might trespass upon the 
 attention of the House to set myself right, 
 in view of the remarks which the hon. 
 leader of the Opposition made with the very 
 laudable, and, in political warfare, very pro- 
 per, intention of creating dissension in our 
 ranks. 
 
 My principal occasion for rising to address 
 the House this afternoon is the speech that 
 was made by. the hon. member for Pictou 
 (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) on Thursday 
 evening. I need only refer to the fact that 
 that speech was made in such a way -say- 
 ing nothing further about it— as to consume 
 an imnecessary length of time. I do not 
 think that anybody who listened to the hon. 
 gentleman, would have imagined that he 
 was trying to get through what he had to 
 say in the least possible time. The hon. 
 gentleman laid himself open to the suspicion 
 that, knowing, as he did, that the House 
 was going to adjourn at twelve o'clock, and 
 that there were to be four or five days in 
 
wbicb there was to be no debate In this 
 House, bis purpose was to prevent any re- 
 ply beihg made on tbis side of tbc House for 
 some days at least. It was known also, 
 tbat be would not be bere to bear the reply. 
 Now, It must be admitted that tht> family 
 to wblcb tbe bon. Kcntlemau belouxs, ban 
 not bad tbe reputation) of lacking (ouraKe, 
 and. possibly, there may be some other ex- 
 planation of tbe bon. K^ntleman's course la 
 taking tbat particular time to mak(> bis ad- 
 dress. He Is not bere, unfortunately. Bui 
 I think I am rl(>;ht in saying, tbat the fact 
 of hia not being bore makes no difference 
 to tbe Government, and that tbe Importance 
 of tbe question demands tbat, wbetlicr be is 
 here or absent, the matter should be dis- 
 cussed, and discussed now. 
 
 It was well known some time ago, tbat 
 tbe 4ion. gentleman would make an address 
 on this question. It has been whi8i)eretl in 
 the cokTldors, talked about In the liotel ro- 
 tundas, and even hinted iu the newspapers. 
 It was known also, practically known be- 
 yond dispute, that tbe great Conservative 
 party had been employing detectives, send- 
 ing" them up to Dawson City— lawyor-detec- 
 tlves, I believe, two or three of them— to col- 
 lect Information for the purpose, if possible, 
 of damaging this Government in the eyes 
 of the public. And. after all that had been 
 said, and the anticipations that were raised, 
 I, at least, thought tbat the bon. gentleman. 
 If be did not have any evidence, would have 1 
 something that a lawyer might be excused i 
 for thinking was evidence, or, at least, tak- 1 
 lu!.' !is evidence. But I venture to say thtt! 
 nobody on either side of the House wivo 
 he.-ird the bon. gentleman'? address would i 
 dignify anything he gave us with the name 
 of evidence. It is the privilege of a member 
 of Pari ament, Sir, to listen to what an iu- ; 
 dividual may say about anybody connected 
 with public affairs. It is his privilege to 
 come into the House of Commons, on a ' 
 proper occjision permitted by parliamentary 
 practice to rise in his place, and to tell tbe 
 House what he has learned, without giving 
 tbe name of the individual who had told him 
 without giving the House an opportimity to 
 judge of tbe credibility of the individual, or 
 what opportunity tbat Individual had bad 
 of knowing what he was talking about. Tbat 
 Is a privilege that is conferred, presumably 
 and I think necessarily, for the public good. 
 But It is a privilege that Is supposed to be 
 exercised by the men upon whom it is con- 
 ferred, with Judgment, and with discretion. 
 and with care, so tbat no man may be un- 
 duly scandalized and no man's reputation 
 may be unduly imperilled by anv anony- : 
 mous accusation. I say nothing further than 
 this, that I will leave It to this House, to 
 the members who heard the address, or 
 who have read— well,, not all that tbe bon. ' 
 gentleman said, for no gentleman in the 
 press gallery, so far as I am aware, was 
 courageous enough, or Indiscreet enough, to 
 take down the language of the bon. gentle- 
 
 man in everything be said— to the members 
 of tbe House who know what he said, whe- 
 ther the bon. member for Plctou, a gen- 
 tleman who was for years a I'rlvy Coun- 
 cillor, who occupied the exalted position of 
 Minister of .lustlce, has used tbe Mgb priv- 
 ilege conferred upon him, as a member of 
 this House, with Judgment and discretion. 
 
 Now, Sir. I am not golqg to follow the bun. 
 gentleman In the nafire of the remarks 
 which be has made ; I am not going tu de- 
 i>ouniv, or to Inslnuato, or to do anything 
 of tliat kind ; neither am 1 goiug to attack 
 the bon. gentloman. I am goln^; to recog- 
 nize, as a responsible member of this Gov- 
 ernment, responsible to Her Majesty, respon- 
 sible to my leader, responsible to this 
 House of Commons, to Parliament and to 
 tlie people — I am going to recognize tlie fact 
 that a member of I'arllamcut has made a 
 speech att.ackiug the administration of tbis 
 Government and tbe administration of the 
 department of which i h.ive charge. I am 
 not going to Inquire particularly as to whe- 
 tlior the member of Parliament who did that 
 (lid it in a fair way, a reasonable way. or a 
 decent way ; but I am going to put the Gov- 
 ernment and myself In the judgment of this 
 House and of the people of Canada as to whe- 
 ther we have fairly and honestly discliarged 
 ( ur dutie?. The question is not wlietber 
 the hon. member for Plctou (Sir Charles 
 Hlbbert Tapper) has been discreet, or whe- 
 ther he has been justified in doing what he 
 has done ; the question Is whether this 
 Government has properly discharged Its 
 duty. Now, Sir, we are responsible for our 
 mining policy in the Yukon district, we are 
 responsible for our administration of that 
 policy, for our administration of the affairs 
 of that territory. Just here I want to say 
 that I do not propose. In this address, to deal 
 with the question of royalties or tbe ques- 
 tion of tho reservation of claims in coimec- 
 tlon with the mining regulations In that ter- 
 ritory. Those are large and Important ques- 
 tloiis of public policy which may well form 
 themselves the subject of a debate, and upon 
 which the members of this Government will 
 be well prepared to meet our bon. friends at 
 any time when they seek to challenge the 
 Judgment of this House. But there are other 
 matters, details of administration which the 
 bon. member for Plctou has brought before 
 this House, and which now demand the 
 specljil attention of the Government ; but 
 T am not ijoing to devote, on this occasion, 
 any time to the discussion of our policy in 
 relation to those matters which I have re- 
 ferred to. We are responsIl)le for our ad- 
 minlstratlDn, we are responsible for exor- 
 cising reasonable Judgment, reasonable 
 promptnos.s, reasonable diligence, reasonable 
 discretion. In anything and everything that 
 we did. And let me say right here, that I 
 am not going to follow a policy which has 
 been suggested many times In the press of 
 this country within the last two weeks ; in 
 dealing with these matters I am not going 
 to try to Justify this Government by making 
 
a compnrUon with the ndtnlnlstration of 
 bou. Kootlonien oppontte ; I am not going to 
 defond niyxelf, or the action of my colleagues 
 In endorHlug wlint I have done, by argu- 
 f>ent8 basod upon rocTlmtnatlon. It 1h per- 
 fectly true thnt If two vices mode a virtue, It 
 would be very easy to do It ; It Ih perfectly 
 true that the hoii. gentleman who made 
 tbl8 attack upon the Ooverninent sat nn a 
 collcngue of a Minister who waH proven 
 to have received large bribes ; It Is piMfectly 
 true that It has been proven that a large 
 Kuui of public money was stolen or lost imder 
 ihe eyes of one of his colli'iigues, an ex- 
 Minister of Railways ; It Is perfectly true. 
 Sir, that H^onduls, gross scandals, disgraced 
 the administration of the western country ; 
 that as peaceable a population as over lived 
 In Canada, upon the banks of the Saskatcbe- 
 wan. were driven Into rebellion by the nial- 
 administration of hon. gentlemen opimslte. 
 That rebellion cost millions of dollars to put 
 down-; 11 cost valuable lives to put down ; 
 and, Sir, It Is true, aitd hon. gentlemen can- 
 not deny It, that the ofllcers that were sent 
 up there looted and stole from the penple 
 whom they were sent up there to protect. 
 It is j)erfectly true that the settlement policy, 
 the general administration of that western 
 country wliere I have lived for the last 20 
 years, was described, not by a Reform paper. 
 not by a Liberal paper, but by thr leading 
 journal of the Conservative par^y in the 
 city of Winnipeg, the Winnipeg " Times "— 
 was ilcscrlbod in a moment of desperation 
 at the actions of the hon. gentlemen opjio- 
 frite. as erass and Incomprehensible from 
 boiginnlng to end ; and It was stated in that 
 paper, not a Liberal paper, but an organ 
 of tlie hon gentlemen, that as a result of 
 their maladministration the trails from Ma- 
 n'toba to Dakota were beaten bare and 
 brown wit'i the wagon wheels of departing 
 settlers. Sir, that is not my language. It Is 
 the language of the hon. gtmtlemen's orgaa 
 which declared that by their maladministra- 
 tion they hnd driven from the North-west— 
 that great country- the magnificent tide of 
 inimignitlon which was flowing Into it at 
 ;hat time, and which only needed to have 
 been fostered and eared for to have tilled 
 up those western prairies. And that emi- 
 gration never returned, or at least has 
 only begun in a small degree to return 
 since this Government attained to power. 
 Sir, I do not mention lhe.se things for the 
 purpose of Justifying anything that I have 
 done, or anything that my colleagues liave 
 don(;. If we could only ju.stify our admin- 
 istration by a comparison with hon. gentle- 
 men opposite, for my part I would be pre- 
 pared to resign, and I do not think my 
 right hon. friend the leader of the Govern- 
 ment would care to remain In offlce If his 
 Ministers had to defend themselves by com- 
 paring their records with those of hon. gen- 
 tlemen opposite. Now, Sir. I am going to 
 give you as well as I can— and I must apolo- 
 gize for being nocessarlly somewhat tedi- 
 ous— the facts relating to the administration 
 
 of th'> Yukon district so far aa I am able to 
 place thcni before Tarliament. I am not 
 going to claim that this Government Is per- 
 fect, or that I am perfect. I am not going 
 to ciiiim that I did not forget anything ; that 
 every letter was (L'spatched Just at the mo- 
 ment it would hav«' been well to have des- 
 patclicd It ; that 1 thought of everything that 
 was going to happen and provided against 
 It ; tliat I had the (]uality of omniscience, 
 or I lie ability to see far over the Rocky 
 Mountains from here to Dawson City, to 
 probe the hearts of the men who were sit- 
 ting in otlices there, and lo see, not only 
 what they were doing, but to see their mo- 
 tives and what they were thinking about. I 
 am not going even to say that we did not 
 possll)ly forget some things that might have 
 been provided for— that may be true. But 
 I ai:i going to say that we have exercised 
 care, forethought, diligence, promptness 'and 
 clrciiiuspectlon fmni beginning to end. In 
 every possible respect. This clatemeut I 
 inaivc to the members of this House, and 
 when I Bit down they will be able to judge 
 whether I have proved my case or not. 
 
 Sir, to begin at the beginning. In Decem- 
 ber, 1890, I took offlce. I did not get settled 
 to work In my department, practically, until 
 'he oi)enIng days of 1807. Early In that 
 year, my attention was called to the neces- 
 sities of the Yukon district. The YuIjou 
 was an unknown land at that time, nobody 
 knew anything about It— nobody at least, 
 except, perhaps, Mr. Ogilvle and the officers 
 of the Government who were there. 
 N^' attention was called— and I want to get 
 this fairly before the House- to several re- 
 parts or letters which had come to the Sur- 
 veyor General from Mr. Ogilvle. They were 
 not— and I have reasons for calllnj,' the 
 special attention of the House to this fact— 
 they were not the reports that were subse- 
 qu(>utly printed, although the reports that 
 were subsecpiently printed Included them. 
 The bulk of the reports, which hon. gentle- 
 men win remember as having been printed 
 Just after the session of 1897, were not re- 
 ceived until the session got fairly on Into 
 June, to the best of my recollection ; but 
 before that, some letters which I think 
 were printed with those reports had been 
 received. On .'"»th March, 1897, which 
 Would he a couple of nionths after I liad got 
 to work In my ottice, the Surveyor General, 
 Cai)taln Deville. called my atteniion to the 
 fact that Mr. Ogilvle had made a report, and 
 Ihe Surveyor General further called my at- 
 tention to the fact that the Yukon territory 
 had been neglected and had not received the 
 attention that ought to have been given to 
 It. He wrote to me as follows— but, mark 
 you. Mr. Speaker, there was no information 
 In the hands of this Government or In the 
 luuxls of anybody which would Justify the 
 Idea that there was going to be anything like 
 an inrush of population. Though the Idea 
 of people going Into the country was spoken 
 of, it was only spoken of In the sense of a 
 
 'i 
 
few hundred minors croRslnft the boundnry 
 from AhiHka. The Surveyor Oeneral, on the 
 6th of March, 1897, a couple of months after 
 I took office, wrote to me a letter. I will call ' 
 your attention to the fact that thin letter was I 
 from an experienced, capable ami reliable 
 officer of the Qoveroment, not appointed by 
 me, but appointed by hou. gentlemen oppo- 
 site, and I am Rlad to say further that the 
 appointment was an excellent one and one 
 which I rcKard as belnR satisfactory In every 
 way ; a better officer I do not believe any 
 Government could have. lie wrote to me on 
 March 5th, 1807, as follows : 
 
 A perusal of Mr. OKllvle's report leaves the 
 Impreaslon that If prompt steps are not taken 
 for plactiiK tho land and mining busineig of the 
 district under efllclent nmnaReniont, it will soon 
 be In an undesirable condition. Mr. Ogilvle'fi 
 view |g that the surveyor of the district should 
 have charge of the businoss : his arguments ap- 
 pear irrefutable. The present agent 
 
 That was Capt. Goustantlne. 
 
 himself admits tlmt he cannot fulfll the du- 
 ties of the office, and asks to be relieved. Should 
 Mr. Ogilvie's view be adopted, no one Is better 
 fitted for the position than Mr. Thomas Fawcett ; 
 he is not only a skilled surveyor and a man of 
 groat tact, Judgment and e.xperlence, but he Is 
 very fortunate in always mnlntr'iinK pleasant 
 relations with evirybody. i i reniDte pla;e 
 like the Yukon district, where much must be left 
 to the agent, suavit- of manner and a concll- 
 Intory spirit are p.iiapa the most ossential 
 qualities. 
 
 Mr. Thomas Fawcett was employed In a 
 temporary way on Government surveys from 
 1874 to 1892. The surveyors were nearly all 
 employed lu a temporary way ; tliere are 
 only a few that are permanent offlcors. I say 
 that simply to Indicate that Mr. Fawcett was 
 to all Intents and purposes a Government 
 surveyor, although he had only been In tho 
 employ of the (lovernment from time to time. 
 In 1892 Mr. Fawcett was permanently ap- 
 pointed In the Surveyor General's branch of 
 the department. He had passed the examin- 
 ation necessary to such appointment and 
 the record of his temporary service was 
 good. In consequence of the report of the 
 Surveyor General made to me on 5th of 
 March. 1897, and followed by another letter 
 on 12th April. I caused Mr. Fawcett to be 
 appointed, and ho was sent out in time to 
 get to the Yukon district by the first opening 
 of the water on the Yukon River. There was 
 no delay : he got there Just as soon as It 
 was possible for him to have got there. 
 
 Now. the members of the House under- 
 stand and know that I hav(> been accused 
 by the Conservative press throughout this 
 country of finding Mr. Ogllvle In charge of 
 the Yukon district and of removing him. 
 Members of the House know, if they have 
 read the Opposition press, that It has been 
 charged that I found Mr. Ogllvle in charge 
 of the Yukon district, he having been ap- 
 pointed by hon. gentlemen opposite and put 
 in charge of that district, and that I removed 
 him. Mr. Ogllvle never was lu charjje of 
 
 the Yukon district, and under tht: hon. gentle- 
 men opposite be never had anything to do 
 with It. They never recognized Mr. Ogilvlo 
 In connection with the Yukon district. They 
 i>ever paid any attention to him, and they 
 never read his reports. Mr. Ogllvle was sent 
 out there as topographical surveyor In con- 
 nection with the boundary survey and he had 
 no c-onnectlon with the Yukon district. It 
 was only the ability, fairness and dignity of 
 character of Mr. Ogllvle that caused hlin to 
 be recognized by the people there as a man 
 to whoiM they could go and n-fer any causes 
 of dispu >. The other officer In charge of the 
 district was Capt. Constantino, and Capt. 
 Goustantlne asked to be relieved. Hon. gen- 
 tlemen may ask : Why did ycm not appoint 
 Mr. Ogllvle In bis place ? The answer is that 
 Mr. Ogllvle asked to be allowed to couie 
 back on account of Ill-health, and he came 
 back on account of Ill-health. Now, to dis- 
 pose of this charge, which Is one of a num- 
 ber. I have pointed out that ♦' •■ < Is nothing 
 whatevci- In the siory that i •, 'oved Mr. 
 Ogllvle from his position; I h.nj pointed 
 out that he never had the po'lfou in fact, 
 and that he came back at b's own request on 
 account of falling health. hen [ ppolnted 
 as (!old CompiiMsloner a .uirveyor. ^''liy ? 
 Because Mr. Ogllvle. v/ho was coiiipcteut to 
 advise the deiMirtiuent. siiggf^sl"! the ap- 
 pointment of a surveyir ; aiKi bccausi that 
 sugjxestion was strongly suprorted by the 
 Surveyor General wlio advised that Mr. 
 Thomas Fawcett. a surveyor of ills staff!, 
 was the sort of man that was wanted, l call 
 ed upon the Surveyor General of Canada for 
 advice, anrl on the recommendation of the 
 Surveyor General of Canada I had a survey- 
 or of ills own appoUued as (!old ConiniLs- 
 slouer. 
 
 Now. Mr. Speaker. Iliey say I ma<le minlnj: 
 regul.'itions under wliich ilie records were 
 secret. I say that 1 did nothing of the kind. 
 The Mining regulations In force when Mr. 
 Fawcett went out were the mining regula- 
 tions promulgated by hon. gentlemen oppo- 
 site — without liiange. Who made those regu- 
 lations ? The hon. gentlemen opposite ai"- 
 polnted Mr. Pierce, an experienced surveyor, 
 an able man. as able a man In his own Hue 
 as tliere Is in Cauadii, to prepare a set of 
 mining regulations. Mr. Pierce was appolnt- 
 e<l Superintendent of Mines, and It was under 
 the regulations made by him that Mr. FaAV- 
 cett went to the Yukon district. There were 
 only the slightest changes of form, and 
 nothing as far as administration was 
 concerned. If any change was made It was 
 upon the recommendalon of Mr. Ogllvle In 
 regard to certain matters of detail, so as to 
 adapt these nvculatious to the Yukon dis- 
 trict, because the regulations as originally 
 made were adapted to the requirements and 
 conditions of the North- wost Territories. In 
 regard to the .secrecy of -ecords, whatever 
 the practice was under the late Government, 
 the practice was when Mr. Fawcett went out. 
 Hon. gentlemen will remember that when he 
 
It 
 
 1 ! 
 
 left here after the session of 1897, after this 
 House closed, there was no Information In 
 the possession of the House which justlued 
 the Government In assuming that what wai-- 
 said might happen, would in reality hap- 
 pen. Tlicre was some Information In the 
 hands of the House and some In my hands. 
 My hon. friend the leader of the Opposi- 
 tion undertoolc last session to show me that 
 we did not have sufficient information, and 
 he took up Mr. Ogilvle's report, which was 
 In my hands when the House prorogued, 
 saying there was going to be, In all proba- 
 bility, au influx of population into this dis- 
 trict. 1 would point out to the hon. gen- 
 tleman fSir Cliarlea Tupper), that neither he 
 nor anv member of this House can read 
 that report and say that the meaning of 
 it is otlior than simply this : That Mr. 
 Ogilvle thought there would be an influx 
 of a fcnv hiuulred miners from the Alaskan 
 side of the boundary. Well, that did not 
 call for any enormous activity on the part 
 of the Government ; it did not call for 
 anvthing I had not done long before In 
 sending Mr. Fawcett and staff to the Yukon 
 district. But immediately afterwards events 
 begun to tliiclcen, and it became evident 
 that sompthing more had to be done. My 
 rigbt li' '. friend the leader of the Govern- 
 ment Wiis in England, and other members 
 of the Government were away, some of 
 them attending the Queen's Jubilee. Other 
 members of the Government were here. In- 
 cluding the Minister of Trade and Com- 
 merce (Sir Richard Cartwright), who gave 
 the matter careful attention. And I wish to 
 say here, that I have been most indebted to 
 that hoL. gentleman (Sir Richard Cart- 
 wright), in connection with ail mattei's re- 
 lating to the Yukon, with reference to which 
 I wanted to apply for advice to one of more 
 experience than myself. The Minister of 
 Trade and Comnieroe was here, we held 
 various council meetings, and we discussed 
 the matter. In the first place, we ordered 
 up an additional number of Mounted Police. 
 We sent Ihe assistant commissioner of the 
 Mounted Police. We did not want the job 
 for a Grit ; we might have done that ; I 
 am not sure the hon. gentlemen opposite 
 would not have sent one of their political 
 friends had they been in my place ; but 
 we sent the assistant commissioner of the 
 Mounted Police as being the proper man for 
 the purpose, and we sent him upon the re- 
 commendation of the Controller of the 
 Mounted Police. We sent him to Skagway 
 to forward supplies over the pass. Then, 
 as the season proceeded the idea forced it- 
 self upon our minds that there was golm? 
 to be a greater rush of people than we at 
 first anticipated. We held council meet- 
 lags, we discussed the matter fully, nud 
 the .ludgmeut of the members of the Gov- 
 •■rument who were here was that the pro- 
 per course for us to pursue was to appoint 
 wliat might be called an emergency staff 
 of officers, that they might go up there, 
 that they might meet the Immediate re- 
 
 quirements of the situation In the following 
 summer (that would be last summer), and 
 report to us >7hat was necessary In connec- 
 tion with the permanent organization of the 
 district. That was tiie Judgment of the 
 members of the Government at that time, 
 and we followed that plan. Let me say, 
 Sir, it is easy to be wise ; It is easy to 
 say what you would not have done if you 
 had known beforehand something you did 
 not know— if we knew what the price of 
 wheat was going to be a month from now 
 we might all b.e millionaires— but we do 
 not know, and so we have to depend on 
 our .ludgment as to what Is going to hap- 
 pen. When we held these council meetings 
 we knew hardly anything about the Yukon 
 district except what was contained in Mr. 
 Ogilvie's report. This report gave a lot 
 of general information, but immediately a 
 man begins to administer. Immediately a 
 man l)eglns to decide, he says : What about 
 This, what about that, what about the other 
 thing. We had nobody to tell us, there was 
 not a man In Canada that knew anything 
 about it ; there was not an officer in the 
 Moimied Police who had ever been there. 
 Mr. Ogilvle was at Dawson city under per- 
 mission to come out— either In Dawson City 
 or on his way out— and we did not have any 
 information whatever, except, as I said, what 
 was contained in that report. It was valu- 
 able so far as it went, but there were an 
 enormous number of things that we wanted 
 to know and that we did not know, and 
 that we could not get any Information 
 about. 
 
 Well, we appointed this staff of officers, 
 and I want to call the attention of the 
 Hous(! to the fact that when we took these 
 steps we were generally commended b.v, not 
 only our friends in the country, and not 
 only our own press, but the press on the 
 other side of politics. Everybody commend- 
 ed the promptness of the steps we had 
 taken to cope with the situation. There 
 were two things to which our attention was 
 i specially directed ; one was the question of 
 j food. Everybody knows here that there 
 I was the most dire alarm as to what was 
 ! going to happen in that district during the 
 i winter. Every one knows that there was 
 ! the greatest apprehension. Why, Sir, I 
 received telegrams from clergymen, tele- 
 \ gra ms and letters from people all over the 
 country, privately urging me to be sure 
 to leave no stone unturned to prevent any- 
 ■ thing in the nature of famine or distress 
 in tliat country. People wrote to me who 
 I had relatives, or thought they had rela- 
 tives in that district, and that was one 
 of tho matters to which the attention of 
 the Government was directed. 
 
 Again, there was another matter which 
 We li.id ro consider. The population that 
 was going in there was supposed to be a 
 lawless popidatlon. It was known to be 
 composed in the proportion of 91 per cent 
 j of foreigners, largely of Americans from the 
 I Pacific slope, not the class of men who are 
 
 HK 
 
the most readily amenable to tbo law or 
 to the restraints of a regularly organized 
 system of government. American news- 
 papers upon the Pacific coast did not hesi- 
 tate to say that If the Canadian Govern- 
 ment undertook to trifle with these men 
 they would run the Canadians out of the 
 country, they would put up the American 
 flag, and we would never see any part 
 of that country again. Well, these stare- 
 men ts, of course, were not to be taken too 
 seriously, but hon. gentlemen who know 
 something about the temper of tne western 
 miner on the Pacific slope, would do well 
 not to neglect them too much, because 
 things happen sometimes m very short 
 order with gentlemen of that class. We 
 had to consider these things when we ap- 
 pointed our ottleers, and therefore •> ap- 
 pointed oflicers in consideration of :ui the 
 circumstances, and in view of the possibi- 
 lities with which they would have to cope. 
 If there had been no danger of starvation, 
 if there had been no danger of riot. If there 
 had been an express train running a Pull- 
 man car to Dawson City, then I think the 
 chances are that Instead of the gentlemen 
 I sent I would have got some men with 
 other characteristics, with special knowl- 
 edge of keeping mining records, and with 
 special knowledge of mining law. My at- 
 tention would doubtless have been direct- 
 ed to that, and I would have endeavoured 
 to get men whose knowledge was complete 
 on this subject, even if they did not know 
 anything at all about anything else. But. 
 Sir, those were not the men to do the work 
 we had to do In the fall of 1897. 
 
 Now, who did we appoint ? As the ad- 
 ministrator of that country we appointed 
 Ma.1or .Tamos M. Walsh. .Tame? Morrow 
 Walsh first entered the service of the Gov 
 ernment on the 25th of September, 187a 
 when he was appointed Inspector of the 
 North-we.st Mounted Police. He was pro- 
 moted to be superintendent on the 1st .Tune, 
 1874— .Superintendent In the Mounted Police 
 Is about the same rank as major hi the 
 mllltla. He served on the march of the 
 police from the Red River to the Rocky 
 Mountains in 1874. and afterwards nt Mc- 
 Leod. Fort Walsh, Wood Mountain and Qu'- 
 Appelle. He retired on the 1st of Sep- 
 tember. 188.3. and was granted a gratuity. 
 He left a record of difficult duty well done. 
 On It being nimoured that ^fajor Walsh 
 was to be appointed tc the Yukon, the " Mall 
 and Kniplre." in an art'de vMi the 10th 
 Augu.st. 1897. said— would hon. gentlemen 
 opposite please take a note )f this— the 
 " Mall and Kmpire " said : 
 
 It Major WalBh of Brockvllle thoul^ be ap- 
 pointed administrator as It Is rumoured he will 
 be. we may be assured that that capable and ex- 
 perienced officer will show himself I he right man 
 for the position. 
 
 The Ottawa " Citizen " said— hon. gentle- 
 men opposite will "e I am not quoting 
 from Grit papers— the Ottawa " Citizen " of 
 1st September. 1897, remarked : 
 
 American papers are full of the praises of Mr. 
 Ogllvie, the Dominion surveyor In the Yukon dis- 
 trict, and of Major Walsh, who Is to administer 
 the country. These men are signal examples of 
 a levotlon to duty such as Nelson would have 
 :i(l mired, and the English people have always 
 been proud of, but they are not exceptional. Wa 
 have many such men in Canada. 
 
 Then, I will quote the " Nor'- Wester." 
 which is the Conservative organ In the city 
 of Winnipeg. This Is the newspaper which 
 heems to have regarded it as its special 
 mission to camp on my trail ever since I 
 have been in public life. On the 12th . l 
 August. 1897, it remarked of the appoint- 
 ment of Major Walsh, that " there would 
 be no one disposed to quarrel with It," and 
 characterized Major Walsh as " a man of 
 western experlepce and sound sense.' 
 Therefore, when I appointed Major Walsh 
 I appointed a man certified by the general 
 knowledge of the people of Canada for the 
 magnificent record which he had Is the pub- 
 lic sevvice, and certified specially and par- 
 ticularly by our most rabid political oppon- 
 ents, to be the best man in Canada for the 
 position. 
 
 Now as to Mr. Wade. It was necessary to 
 have a lawyer to do legal work. It has 
 been complained that Mr. Wade had too 
 many positions. Well, we did not know 
 what work was to be done up there, or how 
 matters were going to develop, and we did 
 not want to send half a dozen men up to do 
 what would be perhaps one man'vS work. 
 It was an emergency staff, appointed, as I 
 have said, foi* the purpose of taking hold 
 of matters as they might develop, and to 
 be supplanted by a permanent staff when 
 the development of the country indicated 
 that such would be required. Now. it has 
 been said that Mr. Wade was a dreadful 
 man. The hon. member for Pictou waxed 
 very eloquent— well, I could not call it elo- 
 quent, but he waxed very luxuriant In his 
 language, to use no stronger term, with re- 
 gard to Mr. Wade. Now. It Is generallij re- 
 garded In law a.s most conclusive when you 
 can pi'ovo your cas<> l>y your opponent's wit- 
 ness. The hon, member for Pictou has a 
 brother whose name Is Mr, William J, Tup- 
 per. He Is. I think, the youngest son of the 
 I'.on. leader of the Opposition, He differs 
 from the hon. leader of the Opposition and 
 the hon. member for Pictou in being ac- 
 nualnted with Mr, Wade ; he knows some- 
 thing about him ; he has been acquainted 
 with him for years ; and. If it is any satis- 
 faction to my hon. friend the leader of the 
 Opposition. I have no objection to saying 
 to iilrn thnt Mr. William J. Tupper Is a gen- 
 tleman who Is well respected In Winnipeg, 
 and whose opinion is regarded as being of 
 some vahie. At any rate, my hon. frieid the 
 leader of the Opposition cannot find fault 
 with him. neither can the hon. member for 
 Plctcu, Ills brother. Well, when Mr, Wade 
 was appointed, Mr, Wade was attacked— I 
 .nm not going to say why— by a gentleman In 
 hia own party, I am not going to bring 
 
10 
 
 il 
 
 other nnines Into the discussion, because 
 thnt has nothing to do with what I am 
 dlscnsslnff now. The explanation of the 
 attack was that the dispute was of a per- 
 ponnl character, and what I am now glvluR 
 Is the opinion of Mr. William .T. Tupper of 
 Mr. Wade. In regard to the attack, Mr. Wil- 
 liam J. Tupper wrote a letter to the editor of 
 the " Nor'-Wester," the Conservative organ 
 In the city of Winnipeg, In which he said : 
 
 It Is nauseating to witness the attempt of 
 the " Tribune " to belittle Mr. Wade's attain- 
 ments. 
 
 He said that " Mr. Wade had made a repu 
 tatlon as a brilliant editorial writer," and 
 that " his success In his profession "—that Is, 
 the legal profession—" is so well known that 
 it cannot be questioned." I am not quoting 
 this letter verbatim, because there are re- 
 ferences in it to a member of the House 
 which I do not w^ish to bring before the 
 Rouse ; but if any gentlemen wishes to read 
 the whol^ of the letter, it Is on file amonj? 
 the papers. I am giving the effect of the 
 letter in regard to the character and quali- 
 fications of Mr. Wade ; that Is the point 1 
 am talking about. Mr. William J. Tupper 
 further said ; 
 
 He has evidently aroused the animosity of one 
 of his party, 
 
 Komark this in comparison with what Is 
 said by the hon. member for Pictou, who 
 does not know anything about Mr. Wade:— 
 
 but I believe political opponents will testify 
 
 that he would scorn to do a mean action, even 
 In the heat of battle. 
 
 He says further : 
 
 I believe the almost unanimous opinion In this 
 province Is thp.t Mr. Wade deserves the best con- 
 sideratiun at the hands of his party. 
 
 Now. that is the gentleman I appointed as 
 the legal olflcer of the' party wlio wont up 
 to take charge of the administration, as 1 
 hr.ve said, in an emergency way. simply. I 
 liava never heard anybody question Mr, 
 Wade's ability ; so I will not devote any at- 
 tention to tliat, 
 
 Anotlier gentleman whom I sent with thl» 
 party was Capt. Bliss, Capt. Bliss is one of 
 the horde of political parasites whom, it 
 appears, I turned loose on the country. Cap- 
 tain Bliss was an officer of the Privy Council 
 of some years standing ; I do not know tlif 
 number of years ; I have not taken the 
 trouble to get his record. When my hon. 
 friend the Prime Minister took charge of 
 the Privy Council branch, lie reorganlzel 
 that department, and Captain Bliss's ser- 
 vices were dispensed with. At the strong 
 request of a number of gentlemen, —rgelv 
 Conservatives, in the city of Ottawa, I found 
 a place for Captain Bliss In my depart- 
 ment. He Is a Conservative in politics, and 
 always has bon, .so far as I know. As an 
 Olflcer he had a good record In the Govern- 
 ment service ; he was found in the Govern- 
 ment service when we came here. Captain 
 .Bliss was sent up wljh the party, and with 
 
 him I sent as assistants two men who were 
 designated as inspectors of mines— James D. 
 McGregor, of Brandon, and Capiain Nor- 
 wood, who comes from somewhere In Nova 
 Scotia. Mr. McGregor I knew myself. He 
 has been denounced In this House In a way 
 1 need not refer to now. He was appointed 
 on my own judgment, as a man who lived 
 for many years In the same town that I 
 lived in, and he Is a respected citizen of that 
 town, and any person who knew anything 
 about his character and habits of life, would 
 i know that a man like him. who had lived 
 1 in the western countvy. wno had travelled 
 all over it for many years, who had met all 
 1 classes of people, and who was a shrewd. 
 1 cap.nl)le, rvjsolute man. was exactly the kind 
 ; of man to send witli the party to the Yukon. 
 I On tho recommendation of my hon. friend 
 tiie Minister of Militia and Defence (Mr. 
 i Borden). Captain Norwood -vas sent too. 
 He was a man who had been the captain of 
 a northern whaler, had wintered In tho 
 northern portion of the Yukon district, knew 
 considerable about the nature and climate 
 ! of the country, and was familiar with tra- 
 ! veiling In far northern latitudes. These 
 i men were going with the possibility of bav- 
 in;: to incur great hard.shlps and to meetex- 
 1 ccptlonal difficulties. 
 
 ! Tlieso two men I have mentioned were 
 ' sent particularly on account of their physi- 
 cal qnalitications, their experience In rougli 
 travelling, and their ability to meet and deal 
 witii nil the difflcultiea they would have to 
 i deal with in the Yukon district. Their par- 
 ; ticular duty was to look after the collection 
 I of royalty, Hon, gentlemen opposite and 
 their friends said that we never could col- 
 j lect thnt royalty. I do not know whether 
 I tlioy said so In Parliament or not, but their 
 organ certainly declared that we could not 
 ; get enough policemen and soldiers In Canad.a 
 to collect tliat royalty. I know that, when 
 , dealing with a rough and ready man, such 
 as a miner, a great deal depends on how he 
 is liandled ; and if you send people to deal 
 I witli such men who do not know how to go 
 ; alwnt the work, you will got into serious 
 : troulde, I, therefore, sent men who had the 
 : nivossary experience and qualifications to 
 deal with this class, and, without a aingle 
 dispute that I have heard of, they did col- 
 lect the royalty provided by law and lodged 
 it in the treasury office. These two gentle- 
 m(>n were Liberals, but I do not think they 
 were any the worse for that. I have given 
 you the certificate of character with regard 
 to Major Walsh's appointment, and a cer- 
 tiflcate from my hon. friend's youngest 
 son with regard to Mr. Wade's character. I 
 have also shown you that Captain Bliss was 
 not an appointee of this Government at all, 
 but a departmental officer, sent on account 
 of two qualiflations. He was familiar with 
 tlie accountant work in my department, and 
 so could keep the accounts, and. In addition 
 to that, he was a military man, and had, 
 therefore, a knowledge of the transportation 
 and handling of men, and would be much 
 
11 
 
 more useful, in case of dilSculty, tban would 
 be an oi-dlnary clerk. These were the rea- 
 sons why these men were sent, and I am lu 
 the judgment of the House as to whether 
 they were not good. The others I do not 
 remember, who went up in connection with 
 the party, but they were simply subordi- 
 nates. 
 
 When the party got to Skagway, it was 
 found that the assistant commissioner of 
 Mounted Police had not got his supplies 
 across. I have been asked, why Major 
 Walsh did not get through by water to Daw- 
 son City. I have just given the reason. If 
 the assistant commissioner of Mounted Po- 
 lice had got his supplies across In time— even 
 in five times as long as it took Major Walsh 
 and myself to put them across wlien wo 
 were there— Major Walsh and his party 
 would have gone on to Dawson City before 
 the water froze. But the assistant commis- 
 sioner had not got his supplies across, and 
 it would have been madness to send this 
 party across the mountains, without any 
 knowledge of where they were going, with- 
 out a proper amount of supplies, and when 
 the information at our disposal was, that the 
 people in Dawson would be starving, and 
 that it would be little less than a crime to 
 send one additional man there without sup- 
 plies for himself. So, regardless of expense, 
 we put tlie supplies across the. p.'iss our- 
 selves, and Major Walsh, Mr. Ogilvle and 
 myself went to explore and get some in- 
 formation, and, as quickly as possible, the 
 other party went across. Tliey started 
 down the river, hut valuable time had been 
 lost, and the result was, that the ten or 
 iifteen days lost in putting the supplies 
 across by tht assistant commlssioucr was 
 just the time that prevented the party get- 
 ting into Dawson City before it was frozen 
 in. 
 
 I am not sure that that was an unmixed 
 evil. On the contrary, I think it was rather 
 providential, because, as a result, Major 
 Walsh sent off Judge Maguire and Mr. Wade 
 and Mr. McGregoi-, and the rest of the party 
 and himself waited for some time whore they 
 wore frozeu* in. on the hanks of tlic river. 
 Major Walsh then heard that a party pui-port- 
 ing to he ;\n American relief expedlllon was 
 coming in, and from what he heard of the 
 dangers and diliicultles regarding encroach- 
 ments upon the botmdary, which he, the 
 chief ofticer of the Government, would liave 
 been held responsible for, he deemed it hla 
 duty to go down to the boundary line to find 
 out what was going on. nnd so he went 
 back to Lake Bennett. From that time to 
 the following spring he devoted himself to 
 getting the supplies down to Lake Lebarge, 
 so that they would get Into Dawson City a 
 considerable time before any supplies could 
 get up by the Lower Yukon, via St. Michael. 
 During that time. Ihey put up" police posts 
 upon the lino of travel, tliey gave supplies 
 and shelter to the people coming out ; and if 
 hon. gentlemen opposite will look back at the 
 
 press of that day, they will find it was the 
 universal judgment that Major Walsh and 
 his men on that trail saved the lives of hun- 
 dreds of people who were coming in. Then, 
 when the spring came and the water opened 
 at Lake Lebarge, Major Walsh took the 
 supplies down the river, where they had a 
 transport. At an enormous sacrifice of time 
 and labour and money, these supplies were 
 taken to the foot of Lake Labarge and 
 brought to Dawson City in time to prevent 
 any scarcity there, before any supplies could 
 be got up the river for those people who did 
 not have their supplies with them. 
 
 Up to that time there had not been in ".ny 
 way whatever a suggestion that Major 
 Walsh had not performed his duty as a 
 commissioner of this Government In a man- 
 ner that was altogether above criticism. 
 Let me now describe what happened. Major 
 Walsh got in vhere on the 21st May, 1897. 
 When you are loaliing back at tliese things, 
 it seems a long time. .Judging by the num- 
 ber of editorials and interviews we have 
 had on the Yukon district, it might be fifty 
 years ago since Major Walsh got into Daw- 
 son City, but it was only the 21st of last 
 May he got there. Let us bear that in mind 
 —only about ten months ago. And he got 
 there after a winter of arduous toll, which, 
 in all probability, has seriously Injured his 
 constitution for the rest of his life. I ven- 
 ture to say— and this ought fairly to be 
 taken into consideration, when criticising 
 these men— that there is no one of them who 
 will not bear in his constitution the marks 
 of the hardship of that winter as long as he 
 lives. Wheu I was there meeting prospectors 
 upon the trail, meeting boats containing 
 prospectors passing along the river and 
 along the lake, 1 inquired of the people 
 where they were going, and wliat tliey were 
 going to do. What did they tell me ? That 
 was in the fall of 1897, wiien we went 
 through tiie pass for the purpose of getting 
 some preliminary information, and when our 
 men were taking sui)itlics througli the pass 
 so that Major Walsli and his party could 
 get down the river. We saw those men and 
 talked with a large number of tliem. and 
 they told us that they were not going to 
 Dawson City. In fact, it was almost impos- 
 silde to tlnd a man, in all tliat host of people 
 camped along the trail and getting ready to 
 go down, who said he was going to Dawson. 
 These mcu had the idea at that time that 
 the Dawson district was very limited, that 
 the good chiims near Dawson were all taken 
 ui). and they told us they were going to the 
 Felly, they were going to the White River, 
 they won; goi.ig to the Ilootaliuqua. that 
 they were going anywliere and everywhere 
 except to Dawson. And the result was that 
 Jlr. Ogilvle and I came back fully assured 
 that there was not g<ilng to be any great 
 number oi people at Dawson. And so we 
 came to the conclusior tiiat the proper place 
 for the load of the Government was Fort 
 Selkirk, in the middle of the district, because- 
 
 X 
 
13 
 
 ,; 
 
 we understood that the people were going to 
 Hpread over the district and very few wero 
 $;oing to Dawson. Mark you, that was not 
 a belief gathered from our Imagination. It 
 w as gathfci-ed by talicing with the men them- 
 selves. What happened ? These men were 
 camped in the passes, and were engaged 
 putting up their shanties along the banlcs of 
 the lakes and rivers, building their boats and 
 getting ready to go down the stream. In 
 the spring they launched their boats ani 
 started. In the meantime, all winter, men 
 had been coming out telling them of the 
 richness of the Dawsou district and assur- 
 ing them that the district was extensive 
 and tliat thero were good claims there to be 
 had. Moreover, these men who were goin:; 
 In found that they could not go off ami 
 prospect In the interior of the country the 
 travelling in which was dreadfully dlfflcult, 
 and that if they left the line of travel they 
 would perish. And so tljey got in their 
 boats, Iwenty-flve or thirty thousand of 
 them, and went down to Dawson City. There 
 were men, practical miners— perhaps a thou- 
 sand or two thousand of them— who went to 
 different parts of the country and spread 
 them.selves over the country prospecting. 
 But the great bulk of the people, certainly 
 not less than thirty tliousand, went down to 
 DawHon City. Major Walsh got there on 
 the 2lst of May. Inside of three weeks 
 after he got there, i-^ere were twenty-five 
 or tlilrty thousand people in Dawson. I 
 want this House, Mr. Speaker, to imagine 
 tbat situation- something more than half the 
 population of the city of Ottawa set down 
 on a strip of ground, a mile and third long 
 by a third of a mile wide, bounded on one 
 side by the mountaius, from which the melt- 
 ing snow trickled down and made a dread- 
 ful mud hole at the bottom, and on the 
 other side, by the river. Imagine, half ihe 
 population of Ottawa dumped in that mud 
 hole within three weeks— no other word can 
 be used th.it will express It, they were sim- 
 ply dumped there. There were not houses to 
 give accommodation to more than one-tenth 
 of thorn. Tlicre was no lumber to build 
 houses with. The ground, after you went 
 down eight or ten Inches or a foot below 
 the surface was frozen solid, and it was 
 practically impossible to make any drains. 
 These people were dumped on that little 
 strip of territory under these conditions. 
 Were they a class of people to be readily 
 ajnenable to reason or likely to listen to 
 advice ? Were they a class of people who 
 would do Just what they were told to do ? 
 I have been told that no sanitary regula- 
 tions were made. Sanitary regulations wer* 
 made. Mr. Wade and the officers of th« 
 Mounted Police did make sanitary regula- 
 tions. They did everything possible, every- 
 thing that human beings could do under 
 the circumstances to make the people obey 
 those sanitary regulations. But imagine 
 tweuty-flve or thirty thou.sand people 
 dumped in a mud hole without anv facility 
 of taking care of them, and you will have 
 
 some idea of what our little handful of 
 offlcors had to contend with. And this was 
 u condition of affairs that no human being 
 could possibly have foreseen, because these 
 people had told me— scores of them— and had 
 told Mr. Ogllvle also, that they were not 
 going to Dawsou at all. As proof of that, as 
 proof that I am not giving you something 
 that is a mere belief formed after the event, 
 let me point out one thing. I came back to 
 Ottawa and consulted witn Mr. Ogilvle be 
 fore he went to England. We concluded 
 that the most Important thing to do In con- 
 nection with tlie mining regulations was to 
 provide some means whereby miners who 
 were scattered througli the country at con- 
 siderable distances could register their 
 claims. I brought the matter before Council 
 and devised the plan whereby these men 
 could register their claims. It was like 
 this: 
 
 In the event of tlje claim being more than 100 
 miles from the recorder's office, and situated 
 where other claims are being located, the free 
 miners, not less than five in number, are author- 
 ized to meet and appoint one of their number 
 a " free miners' recorder," who shall act In that 
 capacity until a mining recorder is appointed by 
 the Gold Commissioner. 
 
 Then follow the provisions as to the matters 
 of detail. This we did because we were 
 convinced, as I have said, that the great 
 bulk of those people were going to immense 
 distances iid would require some method 
 of this kind in order to enable them to re- 
 cord their claims. The people, as I have 
 said, were camped along the passes and the 
 upper portioQ of the Yukon. These regula- 
 tions were sent out to the police officers 
 who were travelling along these passes, with 
 instructions to communicate the information 
 to the people, that they might be Informed 
 of it before they started prospecting. 
 
 Novv, what was the next step ? A great 
 many stories have been told as to what was 
 done next. Mr. OgUvie and I had returned 
 together as far as Vancouver, and he came 
 on to Ottawa after I did. Before Mr. OgU- 
 vie went to England I discussed the subject 
 with him, and I informed him that I had it 
 In view to recommend him as administrator 
 of tlie territory, to take office when Major 
 Walsh's term was up. Major Walsh went to 
 the Yukon district under great pressure from 
 myself, I believing that he was the best 
 possible man for the position. He went very 
 unwilllni.rly and with the understanding that 
 I should not ask him, under any circum- 
 stances, to stay longer than a vear. Before 
 he started down to Dawso? City in the 
 spring of 1897, he wrote back to me and said 
 he did not wish to remain in Dawson City 
 any longer than he could help, and that he 
 Mould like his successor to be sent In aa 
 early ns possible. Shortly after getting that, 
 I caliled to ^r. Ogllvle asking him to return 
 as sjon as he could, and he did return as 
 soon as hU arrangements would permit him. 
 When he got to Ottawa his health was not 
 the best, and It was some days before he 
 
 i.. 
 
13 
 
 could do business. As soon as be was in 
 condition to do business. I consulted blm 
 fi,ud went over the situation very carefully 
 with him. Then on the .SOth June— I will 
 ask the House to mark the date, the 30th 
 June, Just 39 days after Major Walsh had 
 got into Dawson City— in pursuance of the 
 understanding with Mr. Ogllvie that he 
 should be appointed administrator in the 
 spring, and in purauance of the understand- 
 ing with Major Walsh that I should appoint 
 bis successor as soon as possible. I submit- 
 ted a recommendation to Council asking that 
 Mr. Ogllvie should be appointed administra- 
 tor of the district. 
 
 At that time, It Is within the knowledge of 
 the House that no suggestion or complaint In 
 regard to the conduct of Major Walsh had 
 ever been made ; and when I am told that I 
 have been negligent; that I have been care- 
 less, that I did not appoint Mr. Ogilvle for 
 mouths, I think some people have .said, for 
 years, after I should have done it, I say that 
 I appointed Mr. Ogllvie as soon as it was 
 possible to do so, that there was not the 
 least shadow of delay or negligence in con- 
 nection with It. The appointment w^as made 
 just as soon as he came back from Euglnnd, 
 and he had been urged to come back as soon 
 as possible, he came back as soon as his 
 health permitted, he got away as soon as his 
 health permitted, and he was appointed be- 
 fore a shadow of complaint had l)€eu made 
 against Major Walsh or his administration. 
 Mr. Ogllvie was appointed administrator of 
 the district under an Act that was passed 
 last session, providing that there should be a 
 comnilssioner, and a council to assist and 
 advise him in the government of the district. 
 Now, I recommended to my colleagues the 
 appointment of Mr. Ogllvie as commissioner, 
 of Mr. Wade as legal adviser, and of Mr. 
 Glrouard as a member of the council, a gen- 
 tleman who had Ijeen a member of the legis- 
 lative assembly of the province of Quebec, a 
 lawyer of considerable experience, a man of 
 experience in public life, and consequently 
 a most eligible man, so far as I knew, and 
 so far as I believe ut the present time, for 
 the position of a member of the council of tho 
 Yukon District, a man whose experience both 
 as c lawyer and a legislator would be mo«t 
 valuable. I als' ^ocommended Captain 
 Steele. Who is v^ai/tain Steele ? Captain 
 Steele was an officer of the Mounted Police, 
 than whom no better officer ever sat In the 
 saddle, and concerning whom no better cer- 
 tificate of character could be required than 
 the reputation which he enjoys throughout 
 that western country. I must say that 
 every Information I have goes to show that 
 he Is a most valuable and efHclent officer, 
 enjoying the respect and esteem of every one, 
 on account both of his ability and character 
 in the position he has occupied. He was also 
 appointed as a member of the coumjjl, and 
 was appointed as head of the police adminis- 
 tration, that is to say, commandant of police. 
 In addition to these, we appointed a judge 
 of the district. These members compose the 
 
 council. Now, Sir, in addition to these I ap- 
 pointed, as Inspector of mines, Mr. WllliatD 
 Madden. Mr. Madden was appointed be- 
 cause of his special knowledge of mining. 
 The two inspectors I had sent up before had 
 no special knowledge of mining ; it was not 
 supposed they would require such knowl- 
 edge. The special work they were sent there 
 to do, and which they did, was work which 
 was not supposed to require a special 
 knowledge of mining. But a man of ordinary 
 shrewdness and capacity does not need to be 
 very long in the Yukon district to know ns 
 much about mining as almost anybody else 
 there— I may not be correct in saying as 
 much as anybody else knows, but as much 
 as it is necessary to know of the operations 
 that are being carried on there, beca.ise up 
 to this time the operations are rather crude. 
 But we sent Mr. Madden there, glvhig him 
 tlie important position of inspector of 
 mines, because be hird for some years been 
 the assistant Inspector of mines in the pro-" 
 vince of Nova Scotia, the oldest mining ])ro- 
 vince in the Dominion ; he was recommended 
 to mo for that position on account of his 
 special knowledge, by my hon. "rlciid the 
 Minister of Finance. Then, Sir, I .islced Ihe 
 Minister of Finance to select for me a finan- 
 cial otticcr to act as controller of the finances 
 of the district. I recognized that it would 
 be very absurd for Mr. Ogllvie to be charged 
 with any financial responsibility, or :;ny 
 trouble in taking care of the accounts of the 
 district. I saw that an especially competent 
 officer would be required for that purpose. 
 Now, did I appoint a man to that position 
 who knew nothing about finances ? Not at 
 all. For that position my hon. I'ricnd the 
 Minister of Finance recommended an em- 
 ployee of the late Government. I oppolnted 
 him, not because I did not think iliat a Grit 
 might know just as much about finances as 
 a Conservative, l)ecause 1 think that the 
 financial record of the List two yi-.ira would 
 Indicate that the Grits know more about 
 finances than the Conservatives— 1 ain re- 
 ferring to the cliarge made, that we picked 
 out recklessly political friends of the Gov- 
 ernment for these positions who knew 
 nothing about the work ihey wt-re called 
 upon to discharge— I appointed him solely on 
 the ground of fitness. My hon.' friend the 
 Minister of Finance selected a specially qual- 
 ified officer of his own department, a man 
 who has been In the service of the Govern- 
 ment for a number of years, and who was 
 supposed to be the best man for the purpose, 
 Mr. Thomas Lithgow, an employee of the 
 late Government, and he was appointed as 
 controller of finances. Those were the ap- 
 pointments which we made. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, when we appointed Mr. 
 Ogilvle, did we appoint the best man for the 
 purpose ? Certainly we did not look for a 
 man amongst those who had not been in the 
 service of the Government. Mr. Wm. Ogilvle 
 was first employed on survey work for the 
 Government in 1875. He continued to be so 
 employed until 1892, when he was placed 
 
 
u 
 
 ' II 
 
 upon a regular annual salary of ^1.800. In 
 1887, lie was placed lu charge of the topo- 
 graphical division and the oxploralory sur- 
 vey of the Yukon district. We can say that 
 lu additlou to Mr. Ogilvie's otlier qualiUca- 
 tious he Is kuown as one of the most com- 
 petent surveyors that lias ever been con- 
 nected with the survey branch of the Domi- 
 nion of Canada, or even of the United States, 
 a man wlio professionally stands very liisl'- i 
 When, last session, I recommended to my ; 
 ooUeMgues to ask Parliament to vote Mr. 
 Ogilvie a gratuity of $5,000 for his disiiii- ' 
 guished services, my hon. friend from llaldl- j 
 nuind (Mr. Montague) said : 
 
 I do not object to this vote of ^5,000 to Mr. i 
 OgSlvle. I do not fancy there la a man in tills 
 House who will object to It. He has been, It 1 
 seems, an Incorruptible and valuable public ser- 
 vant, and 1 am sure we will all agree with that i 
 vote. I 
 
 Now, that was only a few days before his [ 
 appointment. He was recommended on the I 
 30th of June, and on tlie 4th of July, 1808. i 
 he was appointed by Order in Council Com- 1 
 mlsslouer of the Yukon territory. Thej 
 Ottawa " Journal " of August, 1897, made 
 this editorial reference to him : 
 
 While all about him on the Klondike, miners 
 are securing fortunes, Mr. William Ogilvie, the 
 Canadian surveyor whose reports on the district 
 furnish almost the only authentic information 
 concerning the Yuk^n, is quietly preserving or- | 
 der, settling disputes as to claims and bound- i 
 arles, and making himself of inestimable service 
 to the Government of which he Is an employee, 
 and on the salary of a surveyor. He has not 
 located a single claim for himself. 
 
 That Is in 1897. In the course of an article 
 in the Montreal "Star" of July 'Jud, 1898. 
 we read this : 
 
 His opportunities to enrich himself were Im- 
 menso, but he availed himself of none of them ; 
 but took his small salary and did his duty, and 
 came back no richer than It he had been keeping 
 guard over an ice field. 
 
 The same journal, the Montreal " Star "—and 
 the hon. gentlemen opposite will not say that 
 the Montreal " Star " is a friend of ours now, 
 whatever they nii^'Tt have said a while ago 
 — l>ad this to say of Mr, Ogilvie : 
 
 The country was pleased with the record of 
 William Ogilvie in that district, no matter what 
 his technical duties may have been. 
 
 Agnin, the "Star" had this to .say of him : 
 " The country was pleased with the record 
 of William Ogilvie in that district, no matter 
 what his tectmical position may have been." 
 And the reference was quoted by the " Mail 
 and Empire " of the 8th of that mouth, ap- 
 provingly. The Montreal " Gazette " of the 
 8th of July, another Conservative news- 
 paper, said : 
 
 When a Conservative Ministry sent Mr. Ogll- 
 vlf up, the miners, though he had no authority 
 over them, 
 
 Because he was not given any authority ; 
 he had no official position of any kind ex- 
 cept to make a survey. 
 
 respected his dejtslon as to claims, bound- 
 
 ari'is, and other disputed matters, because he was 
 a Just man who would not use his position as 
 agent of the Qovernment to profit himself by a 
 
 dollar. 
 
 Wlieu tt was rumoured that Mr. Ogilvie 
 was to be appointed commissioner, the Mont- 
 real " Gazette " on the 11th of July, 1898, 
 made this reference to him : 
 
 It is intimated that Mr. William Ogilvie will 
 sojii become the Government's chief commls- 
 sluuer in the Yukon country. It will be a good 
 appointment, and a proper recognition of the 
 services of the man whose work did most to 
 make the Yukon known. It will also put 'in the 
 most responsible position In the country a man 
 whdse character has made him respected by the 
 p( ()!)le he will exercise authority over, and 
 whose presence will be a rebuke to the clalra- 
 frrabblng speculators who have been given too 
 many positions in the gold district. 
 
 Tlu' party instinct could not refrain from 
 getting In a crack at a Liberal Government, 
 but at the same time. Conservative as this 
 paper is. It admitted that the appointment 
 of Mr. Ogilvie was a good appointment. 
 Tlie Oitawa " Citizen " has an interesting 
 record on the Yukon question, if It could 
 only be examined. It says in an editorial 
 reference on July 1st, 1898 : 
 
 .Mr. Sifton, be It observed, when he came Into 
 office, found the affairs of the Yukon in charge of 
 Mr. William Ogilvie, 
 
 Well, I did not ; the only thing about that 
 Is that It Is altogether incorrect. 
 
 whose administration of the district under 
 
 most trying circumstances was, to say the least, 
 such as to reflect credit upon Canada. 
 
 Anything he did he did in spite of the Gov- 
 ernment. 
 
 Readers of the " Citizen " will remember the 
 splendid tributes to Mr. Ogllv'e's high sense of 
 duty, which were paid him by such anti-Canadian 
 Journals as the New York " Sun." He had the 
 opportunity, had he been so minded, of securing 
 mining claims which would have made him many 
 tlii-.es a millionaire. But he not only refused to 
 profit by the position to the extent of a dollar, 
 l)iit actually declined to accept testimonials 
 which the miners thrust upon him In recognition 
 of his thorough-going Impartiality and devotion 
 to duty. Such is the man whom Mr. Sifton found 
 in office. 
 
 Such was the man Mr. Sifton did n3t find In 
 office 
 
 It would have been a small mark of appre- 
 ciation to have conflrmed him In his position. 
 
 He would have been asked to stay there 
 had he not desired to come ouc on account 
 of his Ill-health. As a matter of fact, it 
 wiis absolutely necessary for him to come 
 out. 
 
 It would have been but a small mark of appre- 
 ciation to have confirmed hiic in his position, 
 possen. Ing, as he did, the entire confidence and 
 re.'^pect of the mining population ; but such a 
 ccurse did not fall in with Mr. SIfton's plans. 
 
 I quote that article for the purpose of show- 
 ing that the Ottawa "Citizen," which dls- 
 
15 
 
 )lte of the Gov- 
 
 Q did nst find In 
 
 plays lu the same article Its opposition to 
 myself, approves of Mr. Ogllvle's appolnt- 
 meiu as the best that could be made. The 
 Montreal "Star" of the 11th of July, 189S, 
 says : 
 
 The appointment of William Og'lvle to a posi- 
 tion of trust In tbe Yukon district Is a step for 
 which the government will be gladly given 
 credit. I', is difficult to see how they could have 
 made a better choice. But they must be careful 
 not to overpower hlra with colleagues of poli- 
 tical claims, and with men on the make. 
 
 1 have giveu you the list of men. 
 
 William Ogilvle Is trusted because he kept hin 
 hands free of speculation when chance called 
 upon him to play an impartial part upon that 
 northern stage paved with temptation. 
 
 The Ottawa " Journal," on the 11th of July, 
 1898, sfaVts out an article by saying : 
 
 The Dominion Government scores a big point 
 by its nomination of Mr. Ogilvle to the import- 
 ant post of Commissioner of the Yukon terri- 
 tory. 
 
 Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this is the position, 
 so far as the appointment of otticials is con- 
 cerned : First, we appointed Mr. Fawcett. 
 Mr. Fawcett, a surveyor, was appointed be- 
 cause Mr. Ogilvle recommended a surveyor. 
 He was picked out from the surveyors be- 
 cause the Surveyor General said that he 
 was the best surveyor to be had for the post. 
 Major Walsh was sent out because, by the 
 great mass of public opinion in Canada, he 
 V as regarded as the best man for the posi- 
 tion, and our political opponents admitted 
 that. Before a word had been said, before a 
 syllable had been uttared imputing any fail- 
 ure of duty to Major Walsh, and 1 am nor 
 saying that anything has been said which 
 shows that there was any failure of duty 
 on his part, but before an objection was 
 raised, we appointed Mr. Ogilvle. Mr. 
 Ogllvle's appointment is admitted by the 
 dally pape'"s and by our political opponents, 
 to be the best that could have been made. 
 T)ie hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles 
 Hlbbert Tupper) asks, why did you not ap- 
 point a lawyer as Gold Commissioner ? I 
 did not appoint a lawyer because the man 
 who knew the r.Istrict recommended a 
 surveyor. I appointed the surveyor re- 
 commended as specially fitted for the post 
 by the S:irveyor General of Canada ; and 
 if the appointment of a surveyor did not 
 turn out to ba satisfactory In the light of 
 experience— and that is the only way to con- 
 sider it— if It was a mistake, it must be 
 remembered that It was then more dlfiicult 
 to say that a lawyer was wanted for Gold 
 Commissioner because complications after- 
 wards arose that nobody anticipated, and 
 that have rarely, if ever, arisen in any other 
 mining country, on account of the enormous 
 concourse of people who crowded Into one 
 spot. It was not anticipated that there 
 would be that enormous Inrush of people, 
 or that many of them would act In the 
 dishonest or unscrupulous way In which 
 they did. When Major Walsh came back 
 
 and discussed the matter with me, and he 
 pointed out to me that It would be well 
 to have a lawyer for Gold Commissioner, I 
 recommended to my colleagues that a law- 
 I yer sliould be appointed. There was no 
 delay about It. We considered the matter 
 with reasonable promptness. I do not sup- 
 pose that the moment that Major Walsh got 
 here I dashed otf to the Prime Minister 
 and said : " Call a Council meeting to ap- 
 point a lawyer." These matters are not 
 ! put through lu that way : they have to be 
 I considered. We offered the appointment to 
 1 Mr. Gordon Hunter, a gentlemen who prac- 
 '. tlces, I believe. In Victoria, B.C., and we 
 selected Mr. Gordon Hunter for these rea- 
 I sons : I do not think I ever saw Mr. 
 ! Hunter and I do not know him, but 
 i I knew that there had shortly before 
 I been a vacancy on the bench of tho 
 i Supreme Court of British Columbia, and 
 i that Mr. Hunter had l)een strongly recom- 
 mended to the Government by many capa- 
 ble and reliable men as the best man in 
 British Columbia to fill the position of judge 
 of the Supreme Court, and 1 thought that a 
 i man who was tiualified to sit upon the 
 bench of the Supreme Court would make a 
 ' most eligible Gold Commissioner under the 
 ! circumstances existing as they did at that 
 '< time lu Dawson City. Mr. Hunter was 
 j obliged for private reasons to decline the ap- 
 1 polntment, and I then appointed Mr. Senk- 
 I lor, a barrister of Nelson. I do not per- 
 j sonally know Mr. Senkler, but he was hlgh- 
 ! ly recommended to me. He Is well known 
 I In eastern Canada, and I took care to write 
 privately to leading members of the bar In 
 'he city of Toronto in whose judgment I 
 have the greatest confidence, as to Mr. Senk- 
 ler's (luallttcatlons. The testimony was uni- 
 versally favourable to him, and as he was 
 strongly recommended in British Columbia, 
 I felt that the appointment was the best 
 that could be made. That may be regard- 
 ed as having settled the question of my 
 discretion and my judgment In appointing 
 Mr. Senkler. That shows, I apprehend, 
 that there was no dereliction or any desire 
 on my part to do anything except to meet 
 the requirements of the district, and that I 
 acted as soon as the Information came so 
 as to enable me to do It. 
 
 Then, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Wade had come out 
 —we had no advice that he was coming. He 
 came out, largely, on account of Injury to his 
 health on the) trip In the year before, and 
 when he got here, he was under medical ad- 
 vice, and could not go back. Consequently, a 
 legal adviser was required tot the commis- 
 sioner, a gentleman who would give such 
 legal advice as counsel as Mr. Ogilvle would 
 require In connection wit>i the administra- 
 tion of affairs In the district. I cast about 
 for a gentleman to occupy that position, and 
 I recommended to my colleagues the ap- 
 pointment of Mr. W. H. P. Clement, of To- 
 ronto. I do not know a man at the bar of 
 Ontario— and the Ontario bar ranks justly 
 high— I do not know a mani at the bar of 
 Ontario whose appolnrment should be more 
 

 16 
 
 satisfactory and commeudable than that of 
 Mr. Clement. He was picked out as a man 
 specially qualified for the position. He was 
 a lawyer of first-class standing, a man of 
 unblemished character, a man who had 
 glTen special attention to the study of con- 
 stitutional questions, and consequently, al- 
 though he never was In Parliament, he was 
 a man who had his attention attracted to 
 questions that would naturally arise In con- 
 nection, with the administration of the dis- 
 trict : he l3 the author of a work on the 
 constitution of Canada. Mr. Clement Is a 
 man of recognized standing, recognized abil- 
 ity, and recognized character, and I have 
 never heard any one suggest that Mr. Cle- 
 ment's appointment was not one of the best 
 that could possibly be made. 
 
 These were the men we appointed In the 
 district. As to the few minor officials we 
 sent up, they were only a few in number, 
 with the exception of the class of labouring 
 men and assistants, who would be hired in 
 this country by the day, and who are only 
 sent out because they are difficult to get 
 there. There is more or less diftlculty about 
 getting for the minor positions men of good 
 standing in the east to go to the Yukon. 
 Men of good standing and assured positions 
 do not care to give up their business con- 
 nections and possibly take the chance of 
 wrecking their lives, unless they happen for 
 some\ reason to be of an adventurous tem- 
 perament, and that would not e a particu- 
 larly good qualification, when we came to 
 select such men. Mr. Speaker, we sent men 
 in there of recognized good character. I 
 have not heard it suggested that a single 
 man we sent to the Yukon, down to the 
 lowest labouring man In connection with 
 any party that went to that district, had 
 a single cloud upon his character be- 
 fore he left this country. Then, Sir, If that 
 be the record, I want tc put the Government 
 In the judgment of the House and the coun- 
 try upon this point. For the last year— per- 
 haps not for the last year, but certainly for 
 the last six months— I have been charged 
 and the Government has been charged, with 
 a grave and serious offence In connection 
 with the appointment of officers In the Yu- 
 kon district. I have been charged with the 
 appointment of a horde of useless political 
 parasites, of debauching and prostituting 
 the public service of this country by the 
 class of men I have appointed, of throwing 
 aside old and tried public servants, andl of 
 putting the public service In that district in 
 the hands of men who had no qualification 
 for the position. 
 
 Now, I have read you the record of these 
 appointments, and I ask the gentlemen of 
 this House, If It Is not so, that never In the 
 history of Canada has a series of appolnt- 
 n.ents been made with more care, and with 
 more universal approbation as to each ap- 
 pointment that, had been made. 
 
 Mr. SUTHERLAND. Too many Tories • 
 that Is the only trouble. ' 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. That sticks In your nostrils. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Slfton). I do not mind being attacked 
 by the press of hon. gentlemen opposite, but 
 it would be desirable that some little faint 
 regnrd for the facts of the case should be 
 observed, when the discussion of these mut- 
 ters Is going on In this House. I have not 
 rushed Into newspaper interviews to deny 
 the statements which I have punctured ouo 
 by one, as I have gone through this state- 
 ment, but I have waited until; I was chal- 
 lenged in the House of Commons to rise In 
 my place and prove that the charges whioli 
 have been made against me, In connection 
 with the administration of my ofilce, tire 
 absolutely without foundation. In dealing 
 with some matters, chronology Is every- 
 thing, because a man may be quite free from 
 blame, if he does a thing In dealing with 
 matters under certain circumstances, when 
 he might be very subject to blame for tak- 
 ing the same action under different circum- 
 stances. A man may be free from blame, 
 if he does a thing on the 1st of the montli, 
 whereas, if he did the same thing on the 
 15th of the month, he might be subject to 
 serious blame on account of new Informfl- 
 tion being received by him in the meantime. 
 I, therefore, want to direct the careful at- 
 tention of the House to these appo'.ntmonts 
 In connection with the dates. I recorauiend- 
 ed Mr. Ogilvie's appointment on the 80th 
 June. There was no complaint of any kind 
 that I know of against Major Walsh or his 
 administration at that time. I had not the 
 faintest Idea that anybody had an Idea tuat 
 Major Walsh was not doing everything that 
 could be done, and doing it In the best pos- 
 sible way, when I appointed Mr. Ogilvle, 
 and urged Mr. Ogilvle to go forward as soon 
 as It was possible for him to go. 
 
 It is a large task for a man to undertaite 
 the administration of a district like the Yu- 
 kon. There is no mau in this House of 
 Commons to-day— not even my hon. friend 
 the leader of the Opposition (Sir Charles 
 Tupper)— who has had to organize a new 
 district, organize a government, think of 
 everything that is to be thought of In con- 
 nection with the government, take a new 
 country and a people with nothing dona, and 
 think of everything and provide for every- 
 thing. There is not a man in this House 
 who has ever had to do it before, not one— 
 not even my hon. friend the leader of the 
 Opposition. There never has been a task 
 of that kind before that one man had to 
 take hold of. The North-west Territories 
 had to be administered, but the administra- 
 tion there grew up gradually.. It did not have 
 to be made In a minute ; it grew up slowly ; 
 police were sent out first, and one thing after 
 another was done. Any such avalanche of 
 responsibility as we have had In connection 
 with the Yukon, never was thrust upon a 
 Government in connection with the North- 
 west Territories. Well, I urged Mr. Ogilvle 
 to go quickly. I said there was no complaint 
 
 I:' 
 
17 
 
 I in your nostrils. 
 
 IB INTERIOU 
 I being attacked 
 len opposite, but 
 some little faint 
 
 case should be 
 on of these mat- 
 ise. I have not 
 frviews to deny 
 e punctured out; 
 ough this stnte- 
 Qtil, I was chal- 
 imons to rise In 
 B charges whioli 
 e, in connection 
 
 my office, trre 
 on. In dealliii? 
 ology is every- 
 ! quite free from 
 in dealing with 
 mstances, when 
 I blame for tak- 
 liCferent circujii- 
 •ee from blame, 
 t of the montli, 
 le thing on the 
 it be subject to 
 f new informa- 
 1 the meantime. 
 
 the careful at- 
 9e appo'iotmonts 
 , I recomuiend- 
 nt on the 80tli 
 lint of any kiutl 
 )r Walah or his 
 I had not the 
 ad an idea that 
 everything ihat 
 In the best pos- 
 ed Mr. Ogllvle, 
 'orward as soon 
 
 go. 
 
 m to undertake 
 let like the Yu- 
 
 this House of 
 my hon. friend 
 m (Sir Charles 
 irganlze a new 
 ment, think of 
 ught of In f on- 
 it, take a new 
 thing dona, and 
 vide for every- 
 
 in this House 
 if ore, uot one— 
 a leader of the 
 IS been a task 
 le man had to 
 rest Territories 
 the administra- 
 It did not bare 
 rew up slowly ; 
 
 one thing after 
 h avalanche of 
 3 in connection 
 
 thrust upon a 
 nth the North- 
 ?ea Mr. Ogllvle 
 IS no complaint 
 
 against Major Walsh, and that was true. 
 If I recollect aright, there had at that tluie 
 been an article published, attacking Messrs. 
 Wade and McGregor for having slaked 
 claims In the Yukon district, and I men- 
 tioned this to Mr. Ogilvie. I do uot know 
 exactly the date I mentioned it to liim, but 
 I have a strong recollection that I mention- 
 ed this to him as one of the reasons why he 
 should go quickly, and I told hlui, if any 
 ground existed that no Government official 
 should stake a claim, he might report upon 
 it, and deal with it. I insisted on Mr. Ogll- 
 vle going up there quickly, and I particular- 
 ly mentioned thei 15th of July as the date 
 before which he should go, if possible, 
 There were a great many things to be done, 
 and a great many consultations to be held 
 with the various departments of the Gov- 
 ernment. Mr. Ogllvle would comj and talk 
 to me for a while, ani then he woulil oome 
 down to my house, lale at night, having 
 thought of something that nobody else 
 thought of, and he would take advice ^vlth 
 regard to these things. They could not be 
 put in the shape of official Instructions, l)e- 
 cause if these things were put iu suen shape, 
 and circumstances turned out to be difCerent 
 after Mr. Ogllvle got there, lie would bo 
 bound by his Instructions, and could not act 
 otherwise, and so his information was large- 
 ly taken In the form of consultation with 
 members of the Governraeat. At all events, 
 he did not get away until the 4th of August. 
 Before the 4th of August I had jionei west- 
 ward, and was taking a holiday at l{at Port- 
 age. On his way west, Mr.. Ogilvie stayed a 
 day or tAvo with me, to go carefully over 
 everything again and to have the last word 
 as to his administrative duties. In the 
 meantime, newspaper articles began to ap- 
 l)ear, and I said to him : " Now, Mr. Ogil- 
 vie the Government reposes complete oon- 
 lUlence in you ; we look to you to look luto 
 those things ; I do not give you a com- 
 mission of investigation, but I expect you 
 to put that service on an effective footing; 1 
 expect you to do everything that the honour 
 of the Government of Canada requires in that 
 district, "ud to do It as soon as possible." 
 That yvsfi in conversation at Itat Portage 
 while M» Ogilvie was on his way. Then, 
 after he left, while he was on his way to 
 Vancouver, or after he got there, and before 
 he left for the north, thinking these matters 
 over and feeling the respouslbllity of the 
 whole situation. I feared that he miglit hesi- 
 tate, as an officer of the Government, to as- 
 [ fiume the necessary responsibility ; for we 
 tall know that an officer of the Government 
 lis not like a Minister, who is prepared to 
 [meet Parliament and justify his conduct 
 |after having done the best he could, but Is 
 if raid to take responsibility upon himself. 
 ^Therefore, I sent a telegram to Mr. Ogilvie, 
 either from Rat Portage or Vancouver, and I 
 R^ant my action in regard to him marked, as 
 nhown by my disposition and desire to send 
 ^his telegram to him at that time. No spe- 
 Hon C S-2 
 
 cific charge had been made against any 
 officer of the Government ; there was no- 
 thing but these newspaper statements that 
 matters were not in a desirable condition, 
 and I sent to Mr. Ogilvie a telegram— and 
 fruch authority was never given to any offi- 
 cer in Canada before, in these words : 
 
 You have an absolutely free hand In regard to 
 the offlclals. Do what la neceaaary to put the 
 service on an effective footing. 
 
 What more could I do ? What more could 
 the Government of this country do than we 
 have done ? 
 
 Mr. I'KIOR. What is the date of that ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 have not got the date, but I will look it up 
 and give it to the House. According to my 
 recollection, it was sent after Mr. Ogilvlu 
 left my house at Itat Portage, and befoni 
 he left Vancouver, and I have his ackuow- 
 ledgment, since he went to Dawson City, "of 
 the receipt of this message. In making the 
 ropy of the telegram, the date has been in- 
 advertently left off. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, it has been alleged that 
 there wer3 Iriegularlties in the post office 
 in Dawson City. It has been alleged that 
 tlie constables of the Mounted Police— uot 
 the commissioned officers— I do not think 
 that has ever been alleged— that the con- 
 stables who were in charge of the post office 
 at Dawson City took bribes for the delivery 
 of mail matter outside of regular 1 urs. I 
 do not remember whetlier Major Walsh said 
 anything specltically about that in his offi- 
 cial report or not. I do remember that I dis- 
 cussed the matter with him when he came 
 back, that he said he had called In the offi- 
 cers in charge of the post ollice, that they 
 had tried in every possible way, by the 
 employment of detectives and otherwise, to 
 ascertain if there was any ground at all for 
 this charge ; that although it was rumoured 
 quite commonly that that practice was going 
 on, yet they were utterly unable to fasten 
 it upon anybody ; that they had changed 
 the constables in charge, thinking that might 
 possibly have the effect of doing away with 
 the idea, If it was only an idea, or dolus 
 away witli the practice, If it was a practice. 
 Major Walsh, as soon as he got back, recom- 
 mended in his official report, that the pos* 
 office should be taken out of the control of 
 the Mounted Police, thlnlcing they were not 
 adapted to that kind of work ; and Jlr. 
 Ogllvle, taking the same view as that which 
 M.ajor Walsh iiad arrived at from his experi- 
 ence, has carried out that recommendation, 
 as Major Walsh would have done if he 
 had stayed there. Mr. Ogilvie, when he 
 went back, did take the post office out of the 
 hands of the police, and, so far as I know, no 
 irregularities are charged as having taken 
 place since. Subsequently, the po.stmaster 
 appointed by my hon. friend the Postmastei* 
 General arrived ; and, so far as my Informa- 
 tion is concerned— and I have not heard any 
 
 •^ 
 
IS 
 
 allegation to the contrary— the service In 
 , connection with the delivery of malls at 
 Dawson City Is perfectly satisfactory. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, who was In charge of 
 the post oinoc ? I do not suppose that upon 
 any one point In connection with tlie admin- 
 iHt'ratlon of the Yukon, this (Jovernment ha» 
 been belnbourod, and I have been belaboured 
 and vilified, so much as on account of the 
 post oflice and the method with which the 
 post ofllce was luanaKod. The Impression 
 lias bfon convoyed to the people of the coun- 
 try thut I had sent In some more of those 
 political parasites to take charge of the post 
 offlco. and that those people, went up ther>' 
 to enrich tticnisolvos at the expense of the 
 public, were bleeding everyt)ody. Who was 
 In charge of the post ofHce ? Why, Captain 
 Harper, of the Mounted Police, who was 
 appointed by hon. gentlemen opposite, was 
 In cliarge of it all the time ; and he was 
 sent there on the recommendation of Mr. 
 White, the Comptroller of the Mounted Po- 
 lice, as a competent ofllcer— why ? Because 
 Captain Harper's reputation and record in 
 the Mounted Police was without a Haw and 
 Is without a flaw at this moment— because 
 he was a first-class, competent ofllcer. What 
 better could we do tlian put one of the verj 
 best men in the service of the Dominion of 
 Canada in charge of that office ? And if 
 Captain Harper in Dawson City could not 
 find out whether his own men were taking 
 bribes or not, and. If they were, could not 
 stop them, will anybody In the name of 
 commen sense tell me how I could stop 
 them here in Ottawa ? I did not know for 
 months afterwards that the charge was even 
 made ; I never heard of It till months after- 
 wards, and yet I am blamed because the 
 man on the ground could not stop these 
 men from taking bribes. Why, Mr. Speaker, 
 the proposition convicts the men who are 
 criticising the administration of the district, 
 of the absolute lack of the most ordinary 
 common sense. If criticism is applied, it 
 ought to be applied with some degree of 
 Judgment, and then some attention will bo 
 paid to the strictures. 
 
 In all this, Mr. Speaker, there is a question 
 of responsibility- a question of how far the 
 Minister Is responsible for what his officials 
 do. That is a serious and important question 
 for the House to decide — a question tliat 
 often has to be decided, and a responsible 
 Minister has always to be ready to answer 
 to It at all times and under all circumstan- 
 ces. He Is there to answer or resign. Now. 
 my hon. friend the member for Pictou, on 
 page 775 of " Hansard," defines my respon- 
 sibility as a member of the Government In 
 the following terms :— 
 
 But I charge more against the Minister of the 
 Interior, the responsibility for all I am going 
 to say ; I do not wish to deal with these under- 
 strappers, I do not wish to deal wlth^the crea- 
 tures of the Minister of the Interior. 
 
 I have told you who these creatures were. 
 And I venture to say that the expression of 
 
 opinion given here Is not a proper expression 
 of opinion coming for a Privy Council to 
 apply to these well qualified officers in the 
 public service : 
 
 I do not wish to deal with these understrappers 
 
 —I do not wish to deal with the creatures of the 
 
 Minister of tho Interior. He cannot In fairness 
 
 ! shelter himself behind their misconduct ; he 
 
 ; stands primarily charged with all the rascality 
 
 j and all the nefarious conduct of these men. 
 
 I Tliat is the statement of ministerial respon- 
 , sii)illty which the ex-Mlnister of Justice and 
 I a privy councillor (Sir Charles Hibbert Tup- 
 ' per) made in this House last Thur8<lay. 
 •' oil that mine enemy would write a book." 
 Tlu' hon. genlleniau spoke on a similar sub- 
 ject before in tills House, time and again, 
 uiiilor other and happier circumstances. On 
 page 3035 of the " Hansard " of 1895, the 
 same hon. gentleman la reported as having 
 said this : 
 
 Talte the criticism of the hon. member for 
 North York (Mr. Mulock), and the evidence given 
 by tho hon. member for Queen's (Mr. Darles) m 
 regard to these details. What do they relate to 7 
 
 .N'uw, will the hon. gentlemen themselves 
 listen to what is admitted, not charged, by 
 unanimous witnesses, but admitted and 
 proven : 
 
 They relate to frauds, to trickery, to deception, 
 to stuffed pay-lists, to all kinds of false pre- 
 tenses ; and. If the case stood there, that the 
 i Government knowing of that, had done nothing, 
 j the case would be grave Indeed against this or 
 any Government. But what Information, I ask 
 j again, has any hon. gentleman la this House on 
 I which to base a case against the Government ? 
 j Do they pretend that they can make one solitary 
 1 elector In any part of Canada believe that under 
 j a Liberal Government, or under a Conservative 
 I Government, under the present Government of 
 i thirteen or fifteen men, you could guarantee the 
 I penple of this country against fraud and Iniquity 
 j on the part of men employed by the Government? 
 
 There Is a lot more of the same kind, but that, 
 I apprehend, Is quite enough. What did the 
 
 ' hon. gentleman say In another place ? I refer 
 to this because It has a reference to the 
 English Parliament, and It may be perhaps 
 vahifible on that account. The hon. gentle- 
 
 I man, on page 3038, says : 
 
 And if the Government were to fall on that 
 i ground, if the Minister were to lose his standing 
 ; cii that ground, what would be the position of 
 j Minister after Minister In the Imperial Govern- 
 1 nient ? How about the Ministers who are re- 
 sponsible for the construction of ships, that after 
 having been built are almost as speedily con- 
 demned ? How about Ministers responsible for 
 supplying the army with bayonets that will not 
 stand the slightest use ? How about Ministers 
 whose departments have been Investigated time 
 and time again In reference to other matters, 
 and who have sheltered themselves, and shel- 
 ttred themselves properly, behind the advice of 
 experts. I have heard one of the late leaders of 
 this Government state, without quarrel, in this 
 House, and without any difference of opinion 
 being expressed— I refer to the late Sir John 
 Macdonald — that in reference to matters pertain- 
 ing to engineering, he went by the advice of the 
 engineer. 
 
19 
 
 jper expression 
 
 Ivy Council to 
 
 o'lHcers In the 
 
 e understrappers 
 creatures ot the 
 DDot In fairness 
 misconduct ; be 
 all the rascality 
 these men. 
 
 ilaterlal respon- 
 
 of Justice and 
 
 ■8 Hll)l»ert Tup- 
 
 ast Thurs<lay. 
 
 write .I book." 
 
 I a similar sul)- 
 
 iiuo and again, 
 
 imstancea. On 
 
 •• of 1895, I be 
 
 )rled as baving 
 
 ion. member for 
 be evidence given 
 s (Mr. Da vies) m 
 o they relate to ? 
 
 aen tbomselves 
 
 uot cbarged, by 
 
 admitted and 
 
 ;ery, to deception, 
 ids ot false pre- 
 1 there, that the 
 tad done nothing, {| 
 d against this or 
 nformation, I aslc 
 In this House on 
 ;he Government ? 
 make one solitary 
 )elleve that under 
 ?r a Conservative 
 it Government of 
 uld guarantee the 
 ;raud and iniquity 
 ■ the Government? 
 
 le kind, but that, 
 1. What did tbe 
 er place ? I refer 
 •eference to tbe 
 may be perhaps 
 rbe hon. gentle- 
 
 ■e to fail on that 
 I lose his standing 
 )e the position of 
 
 Imperial Govern- 
 iters who are re- 
 af ships, that after 
 
 as speedily con- 
 rs responsible for 
 nets that will not 
 w about Ministers 
 
 Investigated time 
 to other matters, 
 iselves, and shel- 
 ilnd the advice of 
 the late leaders of 
 It quarrel, in this 
 erence of opinion 
 the late Sir John 
 ;o matters pertain- 
 r the advice of the 
 
 I have shown that I have acted upon the 
 best advice In every appointment I have 
 made, and that every appointment I did 
 make has been approved by the hon. gentle- 
 man's friend, and not merely by my- 
 self. ' And this hon. gentleman, the hon. 
 member for Plctou (Sir Charles lllbbert 
 Tupper) stands up in this House and says 
 that these principles laid down iu this book 
 will apply to and excuse my hon. friend 
 tho ex-Mlnlster of Railways (Mr. Haggart). 
 I am not saying they do not, I am not dis- 
 cussing that at all, but I am pointing out 
 that tho hon. gentleman has declared that 
 they will excuse the ex-Mlnlster of Railways 
 for the fraud, deception and sti-aling that 
 took place In Montreal, two hours' ride l)y 
 an express train from tiie city of Ottawa, 
 but that they did not apply to or excuse me 
 for what happened In a month or six weeks 
 at Dawson City, when no human being could 
 know what was going on there. 
 
 I have shown why we had Major Walsh 
 as the leading administrator, and Mr. Faw- 
 cett as gold commissioner, the latter a gen- 
 tleman appointed by hon. gentlemen oppo- 
 iBlte and recommended by the Surveyor Gen- 
 ial, and Captain Harper in the post office, 
 did not know a syllable of what was going 
 on, and I have the right to say to this House 
 that these men are responsible for what was 
 done and not myself. I said, wlien I started, 
 that I proposed placing myself lu the Judg- 
 ment, placing the Government in the judg- 
 ment of this House, as to whether there had 
 been the least carelessness or negligence; and 
 leave the case with the House lu complete 
 onfldence as to what its judgment will be. 
 My hon. friend from Pictou IS'iv Charles 
 Ibbert Tupper) strayed Into other fields, and 
 was sorry to find that all through lils speech 
 here ran a vein or a tone of Insinuation, or 
 •yinsr to create the Impression that there 
 as some felony, some wrong-doing, some 
 wickedness on my part or the part of tho 
 Government that would not bear the light of 
 day. When a man has anything to .say about 
 me. I like him to say it out straight, and I 
 ,-lsh to say that whenever I have anything 
 o allege against a political opponent, I will 
 not allege It until I have evidence that con- 
 vinces me, and when I have evidence that 
 convinces me. It will be evidence that ought 
 to convince the House ; and then I will take 
 the responsibility of making a charge as a 
 member of the House. I think I would be 
 ustlfled in not dealing with the hou. gentle- 
 lan's Insinuations, I think I would be justl- 
 ed in throwing them to one side ; but I will 
 ot do it, but will make use of the knowledge 
 have to enable me to ferret out what the 
 on. gentleman pretends might have been 
 king place, and I will prove that there was 
 ot a solitary word of truth In the suspicion 
 hlch he expressed or In the charges which 
 ; Insinuated. I shall take up the liquor per- 
 it question lu the Yukon. The hon. gentle- 
 an made some statements with regard to 
 hat question. In the first place, he charged 
 " at there had been gross, and he Intimated, 
 Hon C S— 2i 
 
 Itr 
 
 iw 
 
 cori-upt favouritism In connection wltb liquor 
 permits for tlm Yukon district. 1 have said 
 that there was not, and I shall prove there 
 was uot. On page 2434 of last year's " Han- 
 sard " will be found a statement which 1 
 made to the House at that time of tbe liquor 
 penults which had been Issued up to that 
 time. It will be found, on examination of 
 " Hansard," last year in other places which 
 I need not refer to, that the question came 
 up in this House and was brletly 
 discussed, and I then explained the 
 position to the House. It was this : 
 I had l)een Informed that there was a cer- 
 tain practl(;e lu the department, that ap- 
 plications had come In the early part of the 
 year, practically before there was any par- 
 ticular excitement in the Yukon district, 
 and one or two of them, after the excite- 
 ment arose, and I granted a certain num- 
 ber of permits. They were not granted 
 to my political friends particularly. Of the 
 whole lot, covering altogether perhaps 11,- 
 (KX) gallons, there was only one man to 
 whom a permit was granted that I knew at 
 all, a man from the province of Manitoba 
 witli whom I was personally acquainted, 
 and who was a supporter of the Govern- 
 ment. All the rest I knew nothing of, ex- 
 cept that they were recommended by respon- 
 sible people and certified to as proper persons 
 to receive permits. I explained that to tho 
 House. I say there was not the slightest 
 ground for saying that there was any poli- 
 tical favour given whatever. In fact, the 
 return shows that there was no favouritism. 
 On the contrary, those whom I did not know 
 outnumbered those whom I did by ten 
 to one. I saw that applications were com- 
 ing In rapidly, and that this business had 
 to he stopped altogether, and I stopped It. I 
 said I would not grant any more liquor 
 permits for the Yukon tenitory, and I did 
 uot grant any more. I explained that mat- 
 ter to the House last year, as shown bv 
 the " Hansard." When I say that t did 
 not grant any more permits, I me*... that 
 I did not grant any more for commercial 
 use. The list that was brought down show- 
 ing permits granted prior to the time when, 
 as I said. I decided not to grant any more 
 permits, was placed upon " Hansard " at the 
 page referred to. It shows the permits up 
 to August 30th, 1897. It also shows one 
 permit for fifteen gallons of liquor for per- 
 sonal use, given to a man named James H. 
 Brown on the application or recommendation 
 of the hon. member for East Slmcoe (Mr. 
 Bennett), a member of the Opposition. I 
 do not mean that as any Imputation upon 
 the hon. gentleman. I do not think there 
 is anything wrong in the hon. gentleman's 
 certifying to a friend of nls as a reputable 
 man who desired a permit for fifteen gallons 
 of liquor for his own personal use, going 
 on that long journey. I gave the permit 
 But this is what I want the House to 
 be seized of : since the 30th August, 1897, 
 the only permits that have been granted 
 by or under my authority in any way, shape 
 
r 
 
 20 
 
 ! ' I 
 
 !l 
 
 I sir CHARLES HIBOBRT TUPPBR. Y«l. I 
 
 will. I have been telling hon. gentlemen bere 
 all this evening, on thoae Yukon cbargea, tb» 
 nuFon why aome of these naniea muat be with- 
 held. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, there uiny be a ronson 
 why a iiinn who comes from the Yukon Is 
 r.iol ciioiiRh to think that he will dnmiiKo 
 Ills Interest by mnking an honest stateint iit 
 
 or form, directly or Indirectly, up to the 
 lime when Mr. Oxllvle was appointed com- 
 mlssloneiv-frotn which time he Is held '•'>- 
 sponsible for dealing with the subject, I not 
 even having returns of what be has done- 
 are the following : James H. Brown, fifteen 
 gallons uf whisky for personal use ; Dr. 
 Itlmer, a reputable physician of Aylmer, 
 Que., who went to Dawson City and was 
 allowed to take ttfty galloLs of alcohol as j as to tin; acts of the CJovernment ^ but there 
 
 part of his stock of druKs ; the c-ierks of ' '"' "~ 
 
 the Bank of British North America, who 
 were granted a permit for twenty-five gal- 
 lons for the personal use of the members 
 of that staff ; the clerks of the Canadian 
 Bank of Commerce, a similar i)ermit for 
 twenty-five gallons ; T. Trotter, Antlgonlsh. 
 five gallons of llqour for personal use ; total, 
 105 gallons. That is the Uf-t. Now, I think 
 the House will bear me out that I have 
 answered the accusation of favouritism. The 
 hon. gentleman went on to make the utate- 
 ment that 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. Will the hon. gentleman 
 allow me to ask him a question ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. 
 Certainly. 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. The hon. gentleman does 
 not wish to leave the House and the country 
 to understand that 105 gallons of liquor is 
 the total quantity for which permits have 
 been issued for the Yukon district between 
 these dates. If the lion, gentleman has not 
 Issued these permits, somebody else has 
 Issued them. I suppose he will Inform the 
 House. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 will give that. I will explain the subject 
 • to th() hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) fully and 
 completely. " Nothing extenuate nor set 
 down aught in malice." My hon. friend 
 the hon. member for rictou said this : 
 
 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. If Mr. 
 Woodworth, Instead of attacking the Administra- 
 tion, was In their confidence, was a heeler and a 
 friend, he could do as a heeler and a friend of 
 theirs, was able to do in the city of Victoria, a 
 member of the bar, also, that Is, to charge and col- 
 lect a fee of $500 because he was able, by tele- 
 gram and by a letter, to obtain from the Min- 
 ister of the Interior a permit for his client, to 
 send liquor Into the Yukon. That Is my state- 
 ment. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Will the 
 hen. gentleman telj me who the client was that 
 got the permit ? 
 
 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No, I will 
 not. 
 
 The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR. Will he 
 tell me by whom the permit was got 7 
 
 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No I 
 certainly will not. But I will write to that gen- 
 tloman, who Is a member of the bar, and ask 
 him It I may give his name to the Minister of 
 the Interior and to this House. 
 
 The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mr. Fielding). 
 Surely the hon. gentleman wili ^ot make a state- 
 ment without giving the name of the lawyer 
 
 Is (criiiinly no reason why a member of 
 the l>ar of British Columbia, who does busi- 
 nes.i with the Department of the Interior, 
 slioiild be afraid to have his name known 
 in connection with it. 
 
 The MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 There Ix no reason In this case. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I may 
 be allowed to state for the information of the 
 hon. gentleman that the statement he has made 
 Is abHiilutely untrue. 
 
 I do not, of course, charge the hon. member 
 for rietou with insincerity, but, reading 
 this report. It will be evident that the hon. 
 gentleman took the ground that he bad not 
 made a positive statement and that, a posi- 
 tive statement not having been made, I 
 could not deny It, there was nothing to 
 deny. That was practically the position he 
 took. Now, here is what he said. Is this 
 a po.sitive statement or Is It not ? Is it 
 a statement that I could deny If I knew all 
 the facts, or is it not ? 
 
 If Mr. Woodworth, Instead of attacking the 
 Administration, was in their confidence, was a 
 heeler and a friend, he could do as a heeler and 
 a friend of theirs, also i member of the bar, 
 was able to do In the city of Victoria, that Is, 
 to charc;e and collect a fee of $500 because he 
 wn.? able, by telegram and by a letter, to obtain 
 from the Minister of the Interior a permit for 
 his client, to send liquor Into the Yukon. That 
 Is my statement. 
 
 He could do what another man did who w;i.s 
 nl)le to get a permit from me— that Is his 
 statoniont. Well, I said then that a raeni- 
 bor of the bar did not get a permit from me. 
 I .said the statement was untrue, and I sav 
 it is untrue now, and I will prove it. 
 Porliaps the hon. gentleman did not 
 intend to say what he did. Perhaps 
 lie' iiitcndel to do what he said after- 
 M'ards he had done, perhaps he Intended to 
 insinuate v, Ithout saying it. but Inadvertent- 
 ly lie said it— there Is no question about 
 that. Now I have read a list of the permits, 
 .ind the qpe.stlon I am going to consider 
 before this House Is whether a member of 
 the bar of the city of Victoria- 1 do not care 
 how much he charged, he may have charged 
 whatever he liked— got a permit from me 
 upon a telegram as stated by the hon. mem- 
 ber for Plotou. I do not know that It would 
 be a crime If he did. If the law gave me 
 authority to give a permit, If it was part of 
 my official duty to decide whether a permit 
 should be given or not, I would decide It ; 
 and if, as a matter of policy I thought It was 
 best to give It, and If I gave It on the soli- 
 
91 
 
 I'KR. Yet. I 
 
 entletnen here 
 
 charge!, the 
 
 muit be wlth- 
 
 be a ronson 
 he Yukon Is 
 win diunnKo 
 »Ht stateiiH nt 
 It ; but there 
 . member of 
 ho (Iocs busl- 
 tlie Interior, 
 name known 
 
 D FISHBHIES. 
 
 RIOR. I may 
 matlon of the 
 t be has made 
 
 hon. member 
 
 but, reading 
 
 that the lion. 
 
 It he had not 
 
 that, a posl- 
 
 een made, I 
 
 s nothing to 
 
 le position he 
 
 Bald. Is this 
 
 not ? Is It 
 
 if I knew nil 
 
 attacking the 
 ifldence, was a 
 IS a heeler and 
 ler of the bar, 
 Ictorla, that Ik, 
 500 because he 
 etter, to obtain 
 r a permit for 
 3 Yukon. That 
 
 I did who was 
 e— that Is his 
 
 that a raeni- 
 rmlt from me. 
 ue. and I say 
 I'lll prove it. 
 an did not 
 Id. Perhaps 
 e said after- 
 le intended to 
 it Inadvertent- 
 uestlon about 
 >f the permits. 
 ; to consider 
 
 a member of 
 -I do not care 
 
 have charged 
 •mit from me 
 the hon. mem- 
 
 that It would 
 
 law gave me 
 It was part of 
 ;ther a permit 
 uld decide It ; 
 thought It was 
 It on the soli- 
 
 citation of a member of the bar of British 
 Columbia, I do not know that that would be 
 any dreadful crime. I did give some per- 
 mito, but not Just In that way, and I am 
 prepared to answer for them. I do not 
 know that there would be any crime In 
 do^z^n *v'.:''t the hon. gentleman charged, but 
 what I am i.'*opared to say now In that It Is 
 not so, th.1t k all. 
 
 Mr. IIAGGAIT. Did not that party get 
 a iMsrmit from yi ur ofHce In any way ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 cannot find out who the party was. Tell me 
 who he was. then I will tell you. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Name, name. 
 
 Mr. UAGG.'VRT. Perhaps I have not fol- 
 lowed the debate very closely. I thought 
 that the name of Mr. Woodworth was men- 
 tioned, and the hon. gentleman denied that 
 he had given him a permit. I may be mis- 
 taken. Did this man Woodworth get a per- 
 mit ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 understand my hon. friend was not here the 
 other evening. The name of Mr. Woodworth 
 came In because he w^s the man who wrote 
 a letter which the hon. member for Pictou 
 was quoting. But Woodworth had nothing 
 to do with the permit, nothing whatever. 
 I gave last year the list of permits which I 
 had granted, and in that list there Is no per- 
 mit that was granted upon a telegram from 
 any lawyer In the city of Victoria, and I 
 have granted no permits since — that is per- 
 mits for commercial use ; so where is the 
 hon. gentleman's statement ? In that list 
 there is a permit that was granted upon a 
 telegram from Victoria, and the telegram 
 is here. But it was not granted upon a tela 
 gram from, a member of the bar or a heeler 
 of the Grit party ; it was on a telegram 
 from the Hon. Jas. H. Turner, leader of 
 the Conservative party In British Columbia. 
 If the hon. gentlemen want to look at It, 
 they can look at It. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Read it, read It. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 may say in the first place that I had re- 
 ceived, I think, three applications, one from 
 a man named Chambers, and another from 
 a man named Menzies, the last permit, I 
 think that was granted— the last peii^ilt for 
 liquor for commercial use. First, I received 
 a letter from Chambers, then I got this letter 
 from Mr. Turner, who requested me to give 
 a permit to Sullivan, McLeod and McPhee. 
 I did not know the men, I never saw them. 
 
 Mr. SUTHERLAND. All Tories. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. : 
 suppose tliey are Tories. In answer to thl» 
 letter I wrote to Mr. Turner and said that I 
 regretted that I could not give the permit, 
 that I was in great doubt about the advisa- 
 bility of granting any more permits, and 
 bad about come to the conclusion that I 
 
 ^^-ouId not do It I had alto told Chambers 
 that I would not give him a penult. Th»'n 
 I got this telegram from Mr. Turner, dated 
 21»t of August. 1807 : 
 
 Have had no reply to my telegram 
 
 'i'luuv must bo a mistake of a day or two 
 about the datos of the ls,suo oi the permit. 
 Tliey prob«I)ly ref»T to dates entered upon 
 ihe flies here. 
 
 Have had no reply to my telegram re permit 
 to Sullivan & Co. It la urgently wanted, as la»t 
 sttaincr sails In few days. Please wire permit to 
 collpctor customs. 
 
 That would be after my answer to bis letter 
 of the 14tii of .Inly, but before he had re- 
 ceived It. Then he telegraphs later : 
 
 Win you wire reply to my letter of 20th July 7 
 
 J. H. TURNER. 
 
 In response to either one of these telegrams, 
 whichever I pot the last. I thouglit the mat- 
 ter over, discussed It with my deputy, and 
 solely out of consideration for the request 
 of the Prime .Minister of British Columbia 
 I decided to grant that permit. I said to 
 my deputy : Weil. I have told these other 
 men— I tliink two of them, one certainly— 
 that 1 could "ot give bbn a permit ; now I 
 win liMve to give lilm the permit. If I glvo 
 It to one Hian I must to the other. So I gave 
 permits to both. Then I closed the bill, as 
 I have said, and we have not granted a per- 
 mit since for liquor for commercial use. Now 
 I must say this, that I do not believe there 
 Is a fair-minded man upon either side of 
 the House who will not admit that I am 
 correct In saying that there Is no possible 
 palliation for the unfairness of the hon. mem- 
 ber for Pictou In attacking me about a tele- 
 gram alleged to have been sent, and positi- 
 vely refusing to give me the name of the 
 man that sent it or the name of the mau It 
 referred to. Why, Mr. Speaker, In my de- 
 partment last year, I am told by my deputy, 
 over 175,000 letters and telegrams have come 
 ill and gone out. Would the hon. gentle- 
 man expect me to remember a telegram 
 when he won't give me the name ? Now, 
 I will tell you what I have done. The name 
 not being given, my secretary and my de 
 puty h#e taken the directory of British 
 Columbia, and they have looked up the name 
 of every lawyer In Victoria. They searched 
 the files of the Department of the Interior 
 and they searched my private files. There 
 is not a telegram from a lawyer there in 
 regard to a permit that can be found. 
 
 That Is conclusive of no- 
 
 Mr. FOSTER, 
 thing. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THID INTERIOR. If 
 a telegram has been sent to me by a lawyer 
 In Victoria, and Is not on the file, If I hare 
 •eceived a telegram somewhere else, when 
 I have not lieen In Ottawa, or a telegram 
 which has been lost or mislaid, then I tell 
 the hon. gentleman, that tha man who sent 
 that telegraim got no permit in reply to It. 
 
!5!^aHP 
 
 : I 
 
 9.0. 
 
 I am not responsible for Telesi'.ims being 
 sent ; I am responsible for tlie replies. 
 There was a telegram sent from Victoria, 
 from a lawyer— I would not call liim a 
 heeler, I would net describe liini In that 
 way ; I cannot state what the telegram says, 
 because the Information comes to me In a 
 way that I cannot disclose. If the hon. gen- 
 tleman had given me a name, If he will give 
 it to me now, I will looic ; I will meet him 
 on his ground and prove that he does not 
 know what he is talking about ; but I can 
 only look around and see how the story got 
 around. The law partner of the member for 
 Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) is the 
 only man that the public or private 'ccords 
 of this Government show has ever teiigraph- 
 ed to a member of this Government from 
 the city of Victoria about a liquor permit. 
 He telegraphed to one of my colleagues. My 
 colleague asked me about it. Well, what I 
 told ray colleague Is best evidenced by the 
 answer that my colleague sent. The answer 
 that my colleague sent was : 
 
 Saw Minister of Interior. Regret exceedingly 
 In-.posalble to grant permit. 
 
 It being Six o'clock, the Spealier left the 
 Chair. 
 
 After Recess. 
 
 The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Sifton). Mr. Speaker, when the House 
 rose at six o'clock, I was dealing with the 
 charges, or statements, of the hon. member 
 for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tuppor), 
 with regard to the administration of the Yu- 
 kon, and I think I disposed of the allegation 
 of the hon. gentleman about the telegram. I 
 desire now to say, with reference to 
 the statement of the hon. gentleman (Sir 
 Charles Hibbert Tupper), as to a fee of $500 
 having been paid to a lawyer who was de- 
 scribed as a heeler of the Grit party, that it 
 turns out, according to the b(!St information 
 I can get, after searching the public and 
 pr'vate flies of the members of the Govern- 
 ment, that the reference must have been to 
 the partner of the hon. member for Pictou 
 (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper). Whatever fee 
 may have been paid to this gintleman 
 Is not my business, and it is not the business 
 of the Government, and it is not part of the i 
 otHcial duty of a Minister of the Crown to ! 
 regulate the fee which may be paid to a i 
 lawyer In Victoria for any business which 
 he may do with the department. What I 
 am relsponsible for is what I do, and if a 
 gentleman telegraphs to ine, I am not re- 
 sponsible for his telegram ; I am respon- 
 sible for the answer ; and I have shown 
 absolutely beyond any doubt, that the state- 
 ment of the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles 
 Hibbert Tupper) Is altogether Incorrect. No 
 such permit as that to which he refers was 
 ever obtained. The only application that was 
 made for a permit to which he could possibly 
 refer was made In that way, was made by 
 
 his own partner, and It was properly re- 
 fused. It surpasses the wit of man tO' un- 
 derstand what the hon. gentleman (Sir Char- 
 les Hibbert Tupper) could have meant by 
 mal<inK such a statement in this House. 
 
 The hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert 
 Tui)p(M-) made another statement, which I 
 will repeat to the House, and I will let the 
 House decide between the Minister of the 
 Crown and the leading member of the Oppo- 
 sition who made the statement. The hon. 
 gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) de- 
 liberately stated that I had stopped liquor 
 at the boundary of the Yukon so that liquor 
 that was being taken in by friends of mine 
 might catch up. That was his charge. So I 
 understood It after reading the " Hansard " 
 report, and so I understand It now. I do 
 not tliink there can be the least doubt that 
 what he charged was about what he meant. 
 Sir. I aave already stated what my posi- 
 tion upon the liquor question was. I 
 have stated that there were not any 
 permits I had granted, that there were no 
 friends who got any permits, or who were 
 taking any liquor up there. The statement 
 of the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert 
 Tupper) is, therefore, without any foun- 
 dation. I will go further, however, and 
 I will make to the House a complete dis- 
 closure of all the knowledge I have with 
 regard to the question, with special reference 
 to tlie question of the hon. member for York, 
 N.B. (Mr. Foster)— who is not now in his 
 place— when he asked me, if 105 gallons for 
 which I gave permits for personal use. and 
 druggist use, and so on, was the only liquor 
 that had gone in. At the end of August, 
 1S97. as I said to the Hou.se last year, I 
 made up my mind to prevent, if possible, 
 liquor from being sent in, and that matter 
 was l)rought up in the House last session 
 and then discussed. That resolution I ad- 
 ii.n'cd to up to the time when the local coun- 
 cil took charge. Whatever Mr. Ogilvle and 
 his council may have done since, I have no 
 returns from them on the subject ; but I 
 liave no doubt that I will be able to assume 
 tlie responsIbllHy for what he and his coun- 
 cil Iinve done up to this time, and may do 
 in connection with the question. As to that, 
 however, I have no return up to the pre- 
 sent time. It was a matter of discussion In 
 the House last session, that I had had an 
 interview with the members of the North- 
 west Government. The question as to whe- 
 ther they had power to advise the Lieuten- 
 ant-Governor to issue pern.lts came up, and, 
 witiiout attempting to come to any decision 
 upon the legal aspect of the question, or 
 upon the propriety of the Government un- 
 dertaking to interfere and by force of Its 
 authority over the chief executive officer of 
 the North-west Territories or its relation to 
 him. to prevent the Issue of these permits, 
 an understanding was come to. I Interview- 
 ed In the city of Ottawa the two members 
 of the North-west Territories Government, 
 and I stated to the House last year, if I 
 recollect it aright— I have not seen the 
 
28 
 
 aa properly re- 
 of man to un- 
 einnn (Sir Char- 
 bave meant by 
 his House, 
 harles Hlbbert 
 ement, which I 
 id I will let the 
 Minister of the 
 )er of the Oppo- 
 lent. The hon. 
 )ert Tupper) de- 
 stopped liquor 
 )n so that liquor 
 friends of mine 
 is charge. So I 
 the " Hansard " 
 I it now. I do 
 least doubt that 
 what he meant, 
 what my posl- 
 lestion was. I 
 were not any 
 t there were no 
 ts, or who were 
 The statement 
 Charles Hibbert 
 hout any foun- 
 , however, and 
 a complete dis- 
 so I have with 
 special reference 
 mber for York, 
 not now in his 
 f 105 gallons for 
 lersonal use. and 
 s the only liquor 
 end of August, 
 use last year. I 
 pent, if possible, 
 and that matter 
 )use last session 
 resolution I ad- 
 m the local couii- 
 Mr. Ogilvie and 
 since, I have uo 
 ( subject ; but I 
 le able to assume 
 he and his coun- 
 ine, and may do 
 tion. As to that. 
 1 up to tbe pre- 
 • of discussion in 
 at I had had an 
 rs of the North- 
 estion as to whe- 
 vise the Lleuten- 
 its came up, and. 
 e to any decision 
 the question, or 
 Government un- 
 l by force of its 
 cecutlve officer of 
 or Its relation to 
 of these permits, 
 i to. I Interview- 
 the two members 
 rles Government, 
 le last year. If I 
 e not seen the 
 
 books of reference lately— but my recollec- 
 tion, as I stated to the House last session, 
 was, that I had an iinderstanding with the 
 two members of the North-west Govern- 
 ment, Mr. Ross and Mr. Haultain, that no 
 permits should be issued for liquor for any 
 commercial purpose. There was something 
 said about Issuing permits to persons who 
 might want to go from the Territories to the 
 Yukon district, and merely wanted permits 
 foil taking in liquor for personal use. and I 
 said I had no objection in the world to that, 
 and we parted on that understanding.. I 
 think I stated that understanding to the 
 House ; I certainly stated it to my col- 
 leagues. I went on that understanding, and 
 had not the least idea that the understand- 
 ing was b'eing violated. Now, Sir. I wish to 
 state, with some degree of care, what my 
 position in regard to that matter is, although 
 It is not a question at all that affects my 
 action about giving permits. I was inform- 
 ed, later on, that the North-west Govern- 
 ,ment was issuing permits. I stated to my 
 icolleague who privately informed me of 
 hat fact, that it could not possibly be so, 
 ecause I had a positive understanding with 
 ;hem it should not be done. My colleague 
 aid he knew it was so, and I, tlierefore, 
 ommunicated with one of the members of 
 he North-west Territories Government. I 
 as replied to, to this effect : That, while 
 t was not denied that there had been an 
 nderstanding of the kind, when I parted 
 ith these gentlemen here, yet, practically 
 :his Avas the position taken : That, in view 
 f aH the circumstances, and what had 
 I'auspired since, and tlie delay in getting 
 e Yukon Government Bill through the 
 ouse, they did not conceive that the spirit 
 'it the understanding required that they 
 ihould abstain from issuing permits, and 
 lonsequently they had g* ne on and issued 
 em. Well, I cannot say that my friends 
 the Government of the North-wost Terri- 
 lories were dishonest in that, but it was cer- 
 :tainly altogether a departure from what I 
 Understood had been agreed to between us. 
 simply state that in order that the House 
 ay know exactly what took plnce. I do 
 ,ot accuse these gentlemen of bad faith : I 
 ave no idea they acted in bad luith ; bur I 
 d a clear understanding in one wny, and 
 ey, while admitting the understanding, 
 nceived they weiv, axcui^ed by what sub- 
 quently took place. In the month of .Tnne, 
 last year, there was great pressure for 
 ^ rmits for liquor, which pressure was re- 
 ^^sted by myself and by the Government 
 h^re ; but I was informed by person i com- 
 liig from the coast, that there was uj doubt 
 43iati attempts would be made to get liquor 
 Ukto the Yukon, other than the liquor 
 
 -Mr. DAVIN. Would my hon. friend (Mr. 
 plfton) permit me ? Before the hon. gentle- 
 i||ian goes away from the arrangement made 
 ^3(flth the North-west Government, may I ask 
 Iwm : Does he contend that the North-west 
 afltovernment admitted that the Department 
 
 of the Interior had any jurisdiction at that 
 lime in regard to permits in the Yulcon ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 have not discussed that at all. 
 
 Mr. DAVIN. Yes, but it is very Imporlant. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Slfton). If the hon. gentleman (Mr. 
 Davin) wants to bring that question up some 
 other time I ..:!' discuss it. I am now 
 discussing a questlua of fact, and I am not 
 
 I discussing In any way that legal question. 
 
 ! I was informed that undoubtedly an at- 
 tempt would be made, to get quantities of 
 liquor Into the Yukon district that were not 
 authorized by any legal permit, and, there- 
 fore, I directed that a letter should be writ- 
 ten, and a letter was written— a copy of 
 which I hold in my hand— on the 10th of 
 May, 1898, directed "To the Officer 
 Commanding the Domlnif^n Mounted Po- 
 lice In the White Tass, via Victoria." 
 Tliat was the place througli wliich the il(iuor 
 would go if it went at all. That officer was 
 Major Wood ; and I may say that Major 
 Wood had supervision over not only the 
 White Pass but also tlie Chilkoot Pass, 
 M'liich afforded access to liake Bennett, 
 down which any liquor would go. This let- 
 ter of May 10, was as follows :— 
 
 Dear Sir, — I beg to advise you that no authority 
 has been given to an otBcer of the Goverument 
 to Issue permits for the importation of liquors 
 Into the Yukon district, and that no statute gov- 
 erning the issue of permits has been passed. 
 
 That refonod, of course, to tlie fact that the 
 Yukon Bill had not yet got through. 
 
 The only permits \,-hich have been issued, and 
 which can therefore be honoured, are those 
 named in the Inclosed list. I desire, therefore, 
 to Instruct you that with tlie exception referred 
 to the law prohibiting the Importation or sale of 
 liquor in the district of the Yukon must be 
 absolutely and strictly enforced. 
 
 That was strictly in accordance with tlio 
 position I had taken in the House, and at- 
 tached to that letter was the list of permits 
 which I had presented to the House during 
 tie session. I think the date of jiresentation 
 was later than tlie date of this letter. In 
 addition to the permits mentioned in this 
 list, some permits appeared which had been 
 granted by tiie Lieutenant-Governor of the 
 North-west Territories, and of Avhicli I had 
 been advised. So tliat this li.st comprised at 
 that date all the pcrmit.s I had any know- 
 ledge of having been granted, and this list 
 was placed officially in the hands of that 
 officer, so that he might not be imposed upon 
 by any forged permits being taken in. Then 
 I was Informed, as I have said, that other 
 permits were being issued by the North- 
 west Government, directly contrary to ray 
 wishes and to the well known w'shes of the 
 Government here. That is not said, however, 
 with a view of suggesting that tlie members 
 of the North-west (Government, in the exer- 
 cise of their constitutional functions, are in 
 any way bound to consider the wishes of the 
 
I I 
 
 !| 
 
 !. 1! 
 
 24 
 
 Government here. I simply say as a matter 
 of fact that It was done contrary to our 
 wishes. I ascertained that the permits were 
 being Issued, and I had the North-west Gov- 
 ernment communicated with, and a list of 
 the permits that had been Issued by them 
 'vas sent down to the Government here. 
 Upon that I referred to the Minister of Jus- 
 tice the question whether these permits were 
 good and were In force, In view of the posi- 
 tion of affairs at that time. The Minister of 
 Justice advised me, In the first place, that 
 the permits were good. He also advised me, 
 by another letter, that he was of opinion 
 that we had power to cancel the permits If 
 we saw fit to do so. I concluded at once that 
 It would not be a fair or an honest thing 
 to cancel the permits, because the people 
 who liad got them had gone to the North- 
 west Government, had paid their money, and 
 had invested a large sum of money on a 
 document which was legal at the time ; and 
 I thought It would be a breach of faith on 
 the part of the Government to cancel p''.- 
 mlts obtained under these circumstanuos. 
 Therefore, at my direction, this letter was 
 sent on the 9th of July : 
 
 With further reference to my letter to you of 
 the 10th May last, in the matter of permits for the 
 Importation of liquor Into the Yulcon district, I 
 desire to inform you that the permits enumerated 
 on the annexed schedule have been Issued by the 
 Government of the North-west Territories, and, 
 It having been decided that these permits should 
 be recognized, you will therefore allow the per- 
 sons mentioned in the said schedule to take in 
 the liquor specified opposite their respective 
 name3. upon the production of the permits un- 
 expired. 
 
 This letter was sent to Commissioner Walsh 
 and to tli'i North-west Mounted Police oHi- 
 cers commindlug at the following posts :— 
 Stlkin3 River, Chllkat, Chilkoot Pass, White 
 Pass, Lake Bennett, Hootalinqua, Lake Ta- 
 glsh. I did not know where these men 
 would be taking the liquor In, and so far as 
 I could do so I seut the notice, so that they 
 would not be stopped, instead of sending a 
 notice, as the hon. member for Plctou says, 
 so thi'.t they would be stopped. Later on, 
 rn amended list came from the North-west 
 Gove'-ument, and another letter was sent to 
 the officer commanding the North-west 
 Mounted Police, correcting the list, and In- 
 serting the additional permits, which were 
 sent in the amended list. That Is the his- 
 tory of the stopping of liquor at tiio coast ; 
 ond hon. members will see what a ridiculous 
 mare's nest the hon. member for Plctou has 
 fallen into. In the first place, I had not 
 Issued any permits to my friends, conse- 
 quently, there was not any liquor being taken 
 up by them to be stopped. In the second 
 place, the requisite permits were written 
 pursuant to my duty as a member of the 
 Government, to see to the proper adminis- 
 tration of the law in the district. The House 
 win further see, In answer to the suggestion 
 of the hon. member for York, that the liquor 
 that was taken In for which I was respon- 
 
 sible, If It was all taken In— I fancy It did 
 not all get tliero— amounted to 105 gallons ; 
 md the liquor that flooded the district 
 amounted to something like G0,000 or 85,000 
 gallons— I have not the total. That liquor 
 was taken in In direct opposition to my 
 wishes and without any power on my part 
 to prevent it, under permit of the North-west 
 Government. 
 
 On the subject of telegrams, to revert to 
 that Interesting subject. If the hon. member 
 for Pictou was not referring to the Prime 
 Minister of British Columbia or to his part- 
 ner, perhaps he was referring to Mr. Archer 
 Martin, now Mr. Justice Martin. Mr Archer 
 Martin, then a Liberal lawyer In Victoria, 
 telegraphed to me on the 8th of July : 
 
 Pither & Lelser, leading firm liquor merchants 
 here, were granted permit from Reglna, May 21st, 
 to import 2,000 gallons into Yukon, and forward- 
 ed goods charge responsible employee. Messenger 
 just arrived from north that goods stopped by 
 Major Steele at Lake Bennett under your instruc- 
 tions of May 10th and June 3rd, presumably be- 
 cause of conflict between Governments. 
 
 It was not in consequence of any conflict 
 between Governments, because the first let- 
 ter \\as written when we had not any In- 
 lorm.ation. The letter was written glvina; 
 the information, and adding to the list as 
 soon as we got the information. 
 
 Public here understood this matter had been 
 amicably arranged, and that Reglna permits now 
 I recognized by you. Parties interested very re- 
 sponsible merchants and good standing. Stop- 
 I page working great hardship and heavy loss. 
 I Would respectfully urge you wl'-- immediate in- 
 I structions Steele my care allow- ; permit recog- 
 , nition, so that messenger return by steamer sail- 
 ing probably to-morrow, and party proceed with- 
 out further delay and loss, 
 
 ARCHER MARTIN. 
 
 I wired this reply : 
 
 Archer Martin, Victoria, B.C. 
 
 This telegram will be authority to Major Steele 
 to recognize permit to Pither & Lelser issued 
 by North-west Government to take into Yukon 
 2,000 gallons of liquor. 
 
 I hat permit was not Issued by me, but 
 
 issued against my wishes— Issued by the 
 
 North-west Government for tlie taking Into 
 
 I the Yukon of 2,000 gallons of liquor. That, 
 
 I therefore, is the complete story of the liquor 
 
 I question. 
 
 I I am going to refer to one other matter 
 I wliich was not mentioned by my hon. friend 
 in express terms, but there was a vague 
 I statement, an innuendo, in his remarks which 
 ] had reference to that or something similar— 
 I do not know exactly what It was. Before 
 becoming a member of this Government, I 
 practiced law In the town of Brandon. A 
 gentleman there named A. B. Phllp, was a 
 junior partner in my office. This gentle- 
 man, like a great many others, caught the 
 gold fever, the Klondike fever, last year, 
 and went out to the Yukon. Promptly 
 some of the Conservative journals In Can- 
 ada proceeded to say that Mr. Phllp had 
 
25 
 
 -I fancy It did 
 to 105 gallons ; 
 ed the district 
 60,000 or 65,000 
 al. That liquor 
 position to my 
 iver on my part 
 C the North-west 
 
 lis, to revert to 
 he hon. member 
 ig to the Prime 
 i or to his part- 
 ig to Mr. Archer 
 tin. Mr Archer 
 yer in Victoria, 
 th of July : 
 
 liquor merchants 
 Reglna, May 21st, 
 kon, and forward- 
 ployee. Messenger 
 goods stopped by 
 nder your Instruc- 
 d, presumably be- 
 rnments. 
 
 of any conflict 
 use tlie first let- 
 bad not any in- 
 written givinii 
 g to the list as 
 tiou. 
 
 matter had been 
 cglna permits now 
 iterested very re- 
 1 standing. Stop- 
 
 and heavy loss. 
 vl'"> immediate in- 
 v- _; permit recog- 
 n by steamer sail- 
 arty proceed wlth- 
 
 ;her martin. 
 
 Ity to Major Steele 
 • & Leiser Issued 
 I ta'-ce into Yukon 
 
 led l)y me, but 
 —issued by the 
 ' the taking Into 
 of liquor. That, 
 ory of the liquor 
 
 ne other matter 
 Y my hon. friend 
 •e was a vague 
 is remarks which 
 aethlng similar— 
 t It was. Before 
 3 Government, I 
 of Brandon. A 
 B. Phllp, was a 
 3. This gentle- 
 hers, caught the 
 'ever, last year, 
 kon. Promptly 
 lournals in Can- 
 Mr. Philp had 
 
 sone out as my partner— as my partner, 
 lark you, Mr. Speaker— and was speculat- 
 ing on my behalf In Klondike gold mining, 
 this statement had not been made in 
 khe press, I would not have referred to it. 
 wish to say that while I am deaiiug with 
 these innuendos of the hon. member for 
 »lctou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper), that I 
 latly, positively, emphatically, in the most 
 mqualilled manner, contradict nuy such 
 statement. I defy any man living to bring 
 the slightest evidence of the tnith of any 
 juch statement. I dissolved partnership with 
 [r. Philp when I became a member of 
 |the Government, and have had no business 
 connection with him directly or indirectly, in 
 my way, shape or form, since that time. 
 If he went to the Klondike, he went on 
 lis own responsibilty. If he got gold mines 
 ie got them the same as anybody else, and 
 have nothing' whatever to do with that. 
 Che story was circulated at the coast that 
 had given Mr. Philp a liquor permit, and 
 lat he had taken liquor into the Kiondiiie, 
 id v.'ith that charity which covers a multi- 
 ide of sins, tlie story was industriously 
 Irculated that I was his partner in counec- 
 |on Avith the taking of liquor into that coun- 
 Vy. Well, Mr. Speaker, he never had a 
 |quor permit from rae or my department, 
 Ireetly, indirectly, or in any way, shape 
 |ir form, by or under the authority of any 
 lember of this Government. I hold Mr. 
 pilp's written statement— which he Is pre- 
 ired to verify by statutory declaration. 
 Id which will render him liable to an 
 jtdiotmeut for perjury if not true— tliat he 
 fevor took any liquor into the Klondilce in 
 -' iiny way, shape or form. Mr. Phllp came 
 ,i>tO me one day In my office and said that 
 Major Walsh had made an order about re- 
 j^uirlu!? GOO pounds of provisions for each 
 ;|^rsoii going over tlie pass ; that he intended 
 ilib go up to the Yukon on a short visit— that 
 *^ was just goiuj? in and out ; and that he 
 inted me to give him an order authorizing 
 to go in without the 800 pounds of pro- 
 tons. T <jald to Mm : You do not need any 
 Ser, the police will not stop you, you are 
 going as a prospector, and besides the 
 |lce have not the authority to stop you. 
 order is, to all Intents and purposes, an 
 rlsory order. If any one goes In without 
 |t amount of provisions, the police can- 
 prevent him as they have not the legal 
 Ihority to do so. He, however, said he 
 not ■want to have any trouble with the 
 foe and asked me to give him a letter. 
 jilcli I did. I wrote this letter : 
 
 ^•fhls will introduce Mr. Plillp, who will be 
 pWmltted to enter the Yukon district wltli such 
 SNJVlslons ho may choose to take with h'm, wlth- 
 ©BfTegard to the regulations. 
 
 When Mr. Philp got to the coast, like the 
 
 ner of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir 
 
 rJeg Hlbbert Tupper) and a great many 
 
 r distinguished gentlemen, he desired 
 
 tecome interested in the bringing of 
 
 lor into the Yukon. He telegraphed me. 
 
 asking me to write him that the letter 1 
 had given him should include liquor, and 
 his request was promptly declined. I would 
 not refer to this were It not for the evi- 
 dent vein of insinuation about this thing 
 that travelled through the speech of the 
 hon. member for Pictou. It seemed to me 
 to call for an answer. Friends of mine 
 at the coast advised me that this story was 
 going the rounds, and I promptly denied It. 
 I have now shown exactly what the facts 
 are. There Is not a syllable of truth In it. 
 
 I desire for a moment to advert to th<> 
 charge mac? by the hon. member for Pic- 
 tou that the officials in Dawson had de- 
 camped as soon na they heard that charges 
 were being made against them. Well, 
 Major Walsh came heme in pursuauce of 
 a letter written me that lie Intended to 
 come as soon as he possibly could. Hav- 
 ing done what he thought was necessary 
 on arrival at Dawson, he Intended to come 
 up so as to be sure of not getting caught 
 in there for the winttr, and he came out 
 In pursuance of that letter. Mr. Bliss, the 
 accountant, came out to close up the ac- 
 counts with the department, and Mr. Mc- 
 Gregor came out with despatches contain- 
 ing official Information. Mr. Wade and 
 Mr. NorA>rood came out before either of 
 them knew that any charges had been made 
 against them. They knew nothing of any 
 such charges until they got home. Messrs. 
 Bliss. McGregor, Wade and Norwood are 
 now In Dawson City, and prepared to meet 
 before Mr. Ogllvle, the commissioner, any 
 charges that may be made against them. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, llie hon. member for 
 Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) spent 
 some time on the question of the secrecy of 
 the records. He charged tliat under my 
 administration the records of the mining 
 bureau nt Dawson were kept secret. I 
 have adverted to the fact that these records 
 were kept under the f^ame regulations and 
 prerlsoly tlie same tnsitruetlons as those 
 which had been In vogue under the late 
 Government, and that thei'e is no shadow 
 of ground for the suggestion that anything 
 I have said or doue or any autliorlty I had 
 granted was responsible In any way for 
 the mining records being kept secret. The 
 charge Is made that intormatlon cotild not 
 be got out of the office, and that in Bri- 
 tish Columbia Information can be readily 
 got. But in British Columbia upon no occa- 
 sion, if my Information is correct, has there 
 ever been anything like the rush of work 
 and the rush for the registration of claims 
 which there was In Dawson City at the 
 time ander consideration. There can be 
 no difficulty about getting information when 
 you have a large office with six or seven 
 men coming In during the course of the 
 day to get Information, and where the books 
 and everything are In such a shape that the 
 clerk can hand them out upon the counter 
 and stand there while the person seeking 
 Information examines them. There Is no 
 difficulty about that, hut the position In 
 
1 
 
 26 
 
 the Yukon was altogether dlflferent. From 
 the Ist of May, 1898, to the Slst January, 
 1S99, there were 10,543 claims registered, or 
 an average of about forty for every work- 
 ing day. Remember that these applica- 
 tions could not be taken by everybody. 
 They had to be taken by the clerk who 
 knew what was going on in the otBce, who 
 was familiar with the work that had been 
 done before, and '/ould not make the mis- 
 take of recording a claim for one man that 
 had already been recorded by another. 
 That was done in some cases by mistake, 
 because mistakes cannot always be avoided. 
 \Vhen a man c.une in, moreover, 't was not a 
 case of throwing down a paper as in 
 a registry office. He had to come in and 
 tell where his claim was, and then he had 
 to have his affidavit drawn up and then it 
 was sworn to. Then the clerk had to find out 
 what claims had been registered before. And 
 yet they reglstc'ed an average of forty claims 
 a day, even with the miseralile facilities they 
 had. And no officers could have done Ijetter. 
 Then, it is charged that information 
 could not be got by those who desired it as 
 to unrecorded ground. It was proper that 
 It should bo given out, but the reason why it 
 was not givr-n out was that the thinsj was Im 
 possible. There were, practically, hardly 
 any of the creeks surveyed. Dominion, 
 Bonanza and El Dorado wore surveyed and 
 the men were at work upon others. But a 
 lot of men would stampede to a creek and 
 then rush back to the office to record their 
 claims, expecting the clerks to be able 1o 
 say off-hand what ground was recorded and 
 what was not. Under the circumstances, 
 this was utterly impossible. The information 
 could only be had as the result of a consider- 
 able amount of careful work, after the sur- 
 veyor had gone upon the creek and actually 
 surveyed and scaled it. so that tlie clerks 
 could know what they were doing. I sent 
 surveyors there last winter for that purpose. 
 And. last year, when 1 was taking luy esti- 
 mates through the House for the Surv.\vor 
 General's branch, I explained that some of 
 the surveyors were needed for the very pur- 
 pose of surveying the claims and getting 
 them straightened out. And what happened? 
 The hon. member for York, N.B. (Mr. Foster) 
 got up and protested against anything of that 
 kind. I will read his remarks, they are well 
 worth reading in view of the present state 
 of affairs. I read this not so much to make 
 a point about the surveying of claims In par- 
 ticular as to show that rules that apply in 
 one place do not apply in another, that prac- 
 tice that is good in one place may not be 
 good in another ; and that If you are going 
 to make a practice for Dawson City, you 
 have to fit It to the circumstances you have 
 to deal with. The hon. gentleman "said : 
 
 Surely the hon. gentleman Is not going to take 
 the public funds of the country to defray the 
 cost of surveying out mining clp-lms In the Yu- 
 kon. In British Columbia, If I ^ake up a claim, 
 and he takes up a claim, and If there is any clash 
 In respect to the claim, we jave got to got that 
 
 settled by getting a Crown grant, after a survey 
 for a Crown grant. We have to pay our own 
 surveyors, the dispute can only be sett'.ed when 
 the surveys are made, and the actual bounds are 
 set out, not by the Government, not at the ex- 
 pense of the Governmeut, but at thei expense of 
 the holders of the claims themselves. The same 
 in the province of Ontario. Provincial money does 
 not survey the claims of the claim-holder In On- 
 tario. That Is all at the expense of the mlne- 
 holUers, or the claim-holder himself. In Ontario 
 you have to pay about $2 an acre for a survey; in 
 British Columbia you have to pay some JoOO or 
 $000 In order to get a survey made for a Crown ^j 
 grant. Surely the Dominion, In the Yukon, Is 
 not going to take the burden of surveying out 
 iniUvldual miners' claims. 
 
 Later on, he said : 
 
 I protest. If the practice has been begun, 
 .isainst public funds being used for surveying 
 .■lainis of Individual miners. Let each man pay 
 I'cir the survey of his claims, as Is done In every 
 nulling country in the world. 
 
 [f we had followed the practice laid down by 
 :he hon. member for York, trying, as the cir- 
 L'umstances proved, tliey would have been 
 \v(i!-se ; they would have been simply unbear- 
 •ible. You could get at some informatiou 
 about these claims If surveys had been made. 
 Hut when a lot of people rushed out iiud 
 si!uiipe<led an unknown creek concoruing 
 which the clerks knew simply uothing—notb- 
 liij; of its geography, nothing ot its length,- 
 wlicther it was five or fifty miles, not even - 
 wliere it was ; and when they then dash at 
 the office to record their claims, how is tlie 
 clcfk to give them information ? And the 
 next day men come in and demand to know 
 wliat ground is recorded. The records Imvo 
 uot been entered up, the plans have not been 
 made— how can you tell anything about 
 tlKMn ? The people expected that, even uu- 
 dor these circumstttnces, the clerk would do 
 everything, just as it is done in a reglstiy 
 office in the city of Ottawa. It Is contrary 
 to all reason, and it could not be done. The 
 (■old Commissioner did not have sufficient 
 accommodation in his office. But that was 
 not his fatdt, nor was it my fault. 
 1 have pointed out to the House that 
 tliere was no .easou to suppose that this 
 enormous rush of people would go to 
 I>awson in the spring. We were not pi'o- 
 viding for that ; we were providing for 
 ipgistratlon in other places where we thought 
 the people were going. And the Gold Goni- 
 mlssioner, living in Dawson City, In the win- 
 ter of 1897, had no notion of whnt was fining 
 to happen when the water opened In the 
 spring. He did not know until a very sh.nc 
 time before the rush came, when some pi'ople 
 got In over the Ice and warned him. He im- 
 mediately let a contract for a new hiilldiiic 
 for his office. But you cannot get a new ; 
 building in Dawson City all in a minute 
 it was a slow matter. The building was cm ; 
 finished until Major Walsh got there. It ] 
 the meantlDJe they were having a dreadfu^' 
 time with the accommodation they bad 
 They were trying to meet the requirement^ 
 of these twenty or thirty thousand peoplff 
 
 tOi 
 
27 
 
 rant, after a survey 
 ve to pay our own 
 aly be aett'.ed when 
 le actual bounds are 
 lent, not at the ex- 
 it at the> expense ot 
 ■mselves. The same 
 rovlnclal money doss 
 claim-holder In On- 
 ipense ot the mlne- 
 himself. In Ontario 
 acre for a survey; in 
 o pay some ?500 or 
 J made for a Crown 
 1, in the Yukon, is 
 3n of surveying out 
 
 e has been begun, 
 
 used for surveying 
 
 Let each man pay 
 
 , as is done in every 
 
 ictice laid down by 
 , trying, as the cir- 
 
 would liave been 
 leen simply unbuai- 
 
 some Information 
 eys had been made. 
 
 10 rushed out and 
 creek conceruing 
 
 nply nothing— uotli- 
 thing ot its length, 
 ['ty miles, not even 
 they then dash at 
 claims, how Is tiie 
 •mation ? And tlie 
 d demand to Icnow 
 The records have 
 )lans have not been 
 
 11 anything about 
 ?tod that, even un- 
 the clerk would do 
 done in a registry 
 wa. It Is contrary 
 1 not be done. The 
 not have sulHclent 
 Hce. But that was 
 
 !is it my fault. 
 
 the House that 
 
 suppose that this 
 
 pie would go to 
 
 We were not pro-j 
 vere providing for' 
 !s where we thought 
 And the Gold Com- 
 ;on City, In the win' 
 1 of what was goln 
 ater opened in the 
 
 V until a very shoi, 
 e, when some people 
 mrned liim. He im- 
 
 for a new buikliui: 
 cannot get a new 
 
 V all in a minute 
 he building was lioi,, 
 ilsh got there. It*" 
 > having a dreadfti 
 Qodatlon they ha^ 
 et the requirement 
 ty thousand poopl 
 
 tb^l 
 
 had come In there, some thousands of 
 >m were recording claims, or attempting 
 >cord claims, all at the same time, 
 iw, I want to call attention to another 
 ig, because I think the House is entitled 
 :now why it is these things have hap- 
 !d. And I must say it passes my com- 
 lension why men ordinarily sensible and 
 inable should expect that under the 
 lumstances that existed in Dawson for 
 or three months— circumstances never 
 ylled in Canada before — everything 
 Id be done exactly as it would have been 
 in one of the departments in the city 
 Ittawa. But it seems to be held by some 
 fur newspaper critics, and even by some 
 gentlemen in the House of Commons, 
 this is what ought to hpve been done. I 
 to call attention to the fact that in Brlt- 
 lolumbia the men who stake out claims 
 irospectors, men who, almost without ex- 
 Ion, are in the habit of prospecting, 
 I think hon. members of British Col- 
 la will bear me out when I say that In 
 irovlnce a miner's stake is considered 
 that it is a thing almost unknown for 
 r's stake to be pulled up or defaced 
 (Stroyed, or for a man to come along 
 itake the ground that has already been 
 Why ? Because the miner under- 
 the miners' laws, and knows perfectly 
 :hat no man has any security unless he 
 Its the rights of others. And they 
 Ically never have any difficulty in the 
 offices in British Columbia. But what 
 (ned In Dawson City. We had thousands 
 ►pie to whom nothing was sacred. 1 
 ly on the Table of the House a report 
 iceedings which will show that one 
 leliberately staked ground over another 
 stakes. He walked along, put down 
 ikes and marked his claim when stakes 
 there already. Then he went back 
 tie ottloe at Dawson City, swore that the 
 id was vacant, that the laud was un- 
 led, and got a certificate for It, though 
 been staked out by another man who 
 Iso got a certificate for it. 
 Is beyond the possibility of dls- 
 that there were men in Daw- 
 .iK^Olty who constantly went out and slaked 
 dViP land that had been staked before, came 
 t|B, llppllGd to have the claims recorded, and 
 toiSikt affidavit that the land was unrecorded. 
 Mdb l^ave gone out where claims were staked, 
 the names off the stakes, and put 
 iwn names on Instead. Now, I want to 
 ly sensible man how any Gold Corn- 
 ier living could have kept his records 
 mid have got correct Information and 
 every man's claim as he applied to 
 recorded, under such a condition of 
 inces as that. It could not be done. 
 Iflcatlon to Mr. Fawcett— an honest 
 jus I Ijelieve him- 1 believe him to be 
 upon his long record of faithful pub- 
 ice in this country, I believe him to 
 ist until he Is proved to be dishonest, 
 Ive him that amount oT fair play- 
 it is fair to say of bim that be 
 
 laboured under a most unparalleled set of cir- 
 cumstances, that no man ever had such 
 frightful difficulties to cope with, and so 
 little facilities of any kind to enable him to 
 cope with them successfully. They were cir- 
 cumstances that could not be helped. I want 
 to tell the House that there has been a story 
 going which everybody here has read— it 
 has gone the rounds of the press, it has been 
 repeated in conversation, and ft is something 
 like this : That a man has gone into the Gold 
 Commissioner's office to record his claim, that 
 he has been told to come back next day, that 
 he came back next day and found the claim 
 recorded in the name of somebody else. That 
 is given as evidence, as a proof, mind you, of 
 the fact that the official has given it illicitly. 
 Improperly and dishonestly to somebody else. 
 Now, I say that does not prove anything of 
 the kind. There is not a lawyer living who 
 has the least conception of the value of evi- 
 dence, who would even suggest that under 
 the conditions that existed there, there was 
 even an implication of anything wrong. 
 Why, Sir, think of the rush that was going 
 on ; I wonder that they were able to record 
 anybody's claim immediately upon applica- 
 tion ; because when a man came in while 
 that rush was going on, it was necessary for 
 the clerk to satisfy himself, before he re- 
 corded the claim and gave a certificate, that 
 that claim had not been recorded to anybody 
 else. In a great many cases search had to 
 be made, when the business was going on 
 very fast the records would naturally not be 
 entered up, and these would have to be en- 
 tered up, and unless the clerk was perfectly 
 famfiiar with that particular piece of ground, 
 he would have to scale out the creek, see 
 the amount of ground that was there, and 
 the number of claims that had been recorded, 
 before he gave a certificate. In many cases 
 he would llnd the record had been gi^en to 
 somebody else, in many cases lie would find 
 that the ground did not penult of as many 
 claims as people were applying to be re- 
 corded. The result was, no doubt, that men 
 came in and applied to have claims recorded, 
 it could not be done on tliat day. and they 
 were told to come back the next day, and 
 when they came back and found they had 
 oeen recorded in somebody else's name, they 
 concluded that there had been illicit and im- 
 proper dealings in the Commissioner's office, 
 but there Is no evidence of that. Now. If a 
 m.in thought that his claim had been illicitly 
 given lo somebody else, his remedy was sim- 
 ple : He had merely to go to the Gold Com- 
 missioner and enter a protest. That has 
 be.en done in plenty of cases. I have tried 
 an appeal myself— I remember at least one 
 case of that kind. All the person aggrieved 
 had to do was to enter a protest, and if it 
 was a simple case, Mr. Fawceft tried it him- 
 self ; if it was a complicated case, he would 
 call in Judge Maguire. Judge Maguire took 
 the evidence and heard the case, heard the 
 lawyers on both sides, certified his opinion 
 to Mr. Fawcett, and Mr. Fawcett (leclded In 
 accordance with the opinion of the 
 
lil 
 
 till 
 
 i (III I 
 
 ;Mi!iir 
 
 ^'Nli 
 
 lltiii 
 
 28 
 
 ^^ 
 
 Judge. When you come to examine these 
 things, these iillegatlons, when you look at 
 them In the light of ordinary business, there 
 Is no evidence whatever of any Impropriety 
 or crookedness In anything that has occurred. 
 Mr. Speaker, I lived In Manitoba during what 
 was known as the land boom. We had a fine 
 brick post office, with a postmaster and a 
 trained set of officials, a great array of lock 
 boxes and every modern convenience that 
 can be suggested. We had a land registry 
 otilce specially built for the purpose, a com- 
 petent registrar, a flrst-class set of clerks, 
 and books with a proper system of book- 
 keeping in which every letter had been en- 
 tered up long before the rush took place. 
 There was no survey to be done, no trouble 
 al)out boundaries, but everything moved like 
 clockwork. Well, in the city of Winnipeg, 
 with a brick post office and a large staff of 
 clerks, wltii every modern convenience, with 
 telegraphic and express communication with 
 Ottawa so that anything In the nature of 
 additional help could have been had at any 
 time, I have seen men stand twelve hours in 
 line in front of the post office in the city of 
 Winnipeg, in the middle of civilization, and I 
 have seen a man give another man $10 to get 
 his place in the line. I say further, that It 
 was well known at that time In the city of 
 Winnipeg that a man who did not want to 
 stand In line could get his mall by paying a 
 boy to let him in at the side door. I wa3 
 a clerk in a law office at the time, and I 
 know that was done. Yet did anybody ever 
 hear the Government of that day charged 
 with corruption on that account ? 
 
 Mr. McGregor. That was In 1882, and I 
 have seen it myself. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 have no doubt there are many in this House 
 who stood in that line. Did anybody ever 
 hear the Government of the Dominion of 
 Canada charged with corruption on that ac- 
 count ? The thing was too absurd. But 
 when the thing happened in Dawson City, 
 where there was no possibility of coping 
 with the difficulty, the Government is charg- 
 ed with corruption. Now, is not that the 
 height of absurdity ? When I was a ^aw 
 student at Winnipeg, at the same time, I 
 have waited for two weeks to get an ab- 
 stract from the registry office. 
 
 Mr. McGregor. So have I, often. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.! 
 The registry was thoroughly equipped witli i 
 
 "erythlng that modern knowledge and skill' 
 uld put In the hands of the registrar, Ijuti 
 ■■, ith everything that could possibly be done i 
 facilitate business, I have had to wait two 
 -^ ks for a single abstract. But at Dawson 
 Ciiy these gentlemen thouglit that if they 
 had to wait half an hour they were being 
 outraged and somebody was defrauding 
 them. Now, I am only putting this matter 
 to the House as to men of common sense. 
 When these things happened at Winnipeg, 
 did anybody shout about the Government 
 
 l)eing corrupt ? Not at all ; everybody then 
 know the exceptional state of affairs, knew 
 that the officers of the Government, the offi- 
 cers of the land registry office, the officers of 
 the Dominion lands office, the officers in th( 
 post office, were all doing their best to keep 
 up with thcli work, and no fault was found 
 with them in any way, shape or form. 
 
 Mr. PRIOR. Would the hon. gentleman 
 allow me to ask him a (luestlon ? He has 
 stated that he has known In Wirnlpeg met 
 to give other men $10 for their places In thf 
 procession. Did he ever know any man to 
 go In at a side door and give a Government 
 official $10 to get his record In ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I 
 have known of a man giving a clerk $5 t( 
 go in at the side-door to get his mall. I did 
 not accuse the Dominion Government o' 
 corruption on that account. I do not thin': 
 the postmaster found it out at all ; he did 
 not know It. 
 
 There is another charge which !ia> 
 been made whicli I cannot fall to dejil 
 with. I have been told, and this Is a seri 
 ous charge, that, under my administration 
 of the department, the law respecting the 
 staking of claims by officials was changed 
 practically changed, and the hon. membor 
 for Plctou undertook to deliver to the Hous? 
 and to myself particularly, a lecture upon 
 the spirit of the law and the spirit In whicliir 
 tlie law had been administered in forme. ^ 
 years. He read a) clause of the Dominloni 
 Lands Act to show what the law was In thatl 
 respect in regard to the Dominion laudsJ 
 and he explained the honourable position oil 
 the Department of the Interior and tlij 
 spirit In which the law had been admlnls 
 tered by the late Government for yean 
 past I do not object to being lectured one 
 In a while— I do not object to being lecture 
 even by a man who does not know,, perhaps] 
 as much about the subject as I do-rbul 
 when the hon. member for Pictou under! 
 takes to tell me how the public domain \i 
 the west has been administered, the onli 
 conclusion is, that the hon. gentleman ha| 
 been asleep for the last eighteen year 
 Does he mean to tell me that the offlclali 
 of the late Government have not dealt ii 
 that domain for the last eighteen years, tha| 
 they have not speculated in it ? There is i 
 prominent Dominion official in the town I 
 which I lived, who took up u homestead, 
 valuable property, a few miles distant, and] 
 upon a colourable performance of the dutle 
 —there was no settlement, and he was no( 
 a farmer— he got hla patent under the Got) 
 emment of the hon. geutlemen opposite, 
 will send the name over to hon. gentlemei 
 opposite, and I will bring down the papeif 
 on file In my department. If they will moTi 
 for them ; but after they have read then 
 they will wish they had not moved for then 
 Does the hon. gentleman mean to say, tha| 
 tuel spirit of the law, as they administer 
 it, was that the men making the law, anf 
 the men administering the law, should uti 
 
^9 
 
 t at all ; everybody theH 
 lal state of affairs, knev 
 the Government, the offl4 
 Istry office, the officers o(| 
 1 office, the officers In the 
 1 doing their best to keen 
 , and no fault was fouudii 
 ivay, shape or form. 
 
 ould the hon. gentleman 
 ra a question ? He hai 
 known In Wirnlpeg men 
 ;10 for their places in thd 
 ever know any man tq 
 p and give a Government] 
 is record In ? 
 
 OP THE INTERIOR. iP' i« 
 nan giving a clerk $5 ti 
 or to get his mail. I did 
 ominion Government o 
 account. I do not thiiikj 
 Qd it out at all ; he di(i| 
 
 er charge which lias 
 I f-annot fall to denl 
 told, and this Is a seri 
 mder my administration 
 the law respecting the 
 )y officials was changed 
 I, and the hon. membor;*: 
 k to deliver to the Hon^i 
 tlcularly, a lecture upni 
 V and the spirit In whicli 
 administered in forme 
 clause of the Dominim 
 (vhat the law was In lli i 
 
 tile Dominion Iniid- 
 e honourable position n 
 
 the Interior and tli' 
 law had been admlnis 
 Government for yoni 
 ct to being lectured ones 
 object to being lecture, 
 does not know,.perhai)'; 
 e subject as I do— b«i^ 
 mber for Pictou underf 
 w the public domain ii|, 
 administered, the onlw; 
 the hon. gentleman ha^' 
 le last eighteen years|* 
 ell me that the official* 
 ment have not dealt u 
 last eighteen years, thai 
 ilated in it ? There is 
 
 1 official in the town li 
 took up u homestead. 
 , few miles distant, am 
 jrformance of the dutl^ 
 lement, and he was noj 
 a patent under the Gov 
 . geiitlemen opposite. "^ 
 
 over to hon. gentle mei 
 bring down the papei 
 ment. If they will moTi 
 •r they have read thei 
 had not moved for thei 
 eman mean to say, tbn' 
 iv, as they administer*'' 
 n making the law, ai. 
 Ing the law, should no 
 
 Ic In the public property ? Does the 
 gentleman forget the grants of public 
 1, of public property, that for years were 
 ie to the friends and intimates of the 
 fernaieut notoriously ? Doe.s the hon. 
 iber for Pictou forget that the name of 
 [own brother, Mr. Stuart Tupper, that 
 [name of Mr. Hugh John Macdonald, the 
 i of the late Sir John Macdonald, appear- 
 connectlon with these transactions ? 
 the hon. gentleman forget the grant of 
 Is made in the Prince Albert district, the 
 pit of which was the driving of those 
 lers into rebellion ? I think he must 
 been asleep for the last eighteen years, 
 does not know how the public pro- 
 of this country has been administered, 
 if he wants to know how It has been 
 llnistered, I will give him the statement 
 ine of his own political friends. This 
 leman says : 
 
 by should I be singled out for public oen- 
 
 Mr. John Charles Rykert. 
 
 lien there are dozens of members in the 
 '■House who not only have applied for and 
 led limits for themselves, but sit there dally 
 
 money Into their own pockets, I cannot 
 
 ind. 
 
 Is the spirit of the law, as admlnls- 
 by hon. gentlemen opposite. Now I 
 get down to particulars to show you 
 the practice was. I sent to the Yu- 
 the mining regulations of hon. gentle- 
 opposite. So far as the staking of 
 by officials was concerned, there was 
 ange whatever made by me in the re- 
 ons, In the letter, or spirit, or practice 
 ese regulations. It has been dlng- 
 into the ears of the people of this 
 for the last six months, that such 
 ^ _ ng as Government officials staking 
 a ij^ilning claim was never heard of until 
 H» batch of Grit officials got to Dawson 
 OSt^ Let us see ; records are sometimes 
 Inoplivenleut things. My batch of Grit offl- 
 ctii» got to Dawson City In February, 1898. 
 Waui was the first Government official who 
 ttfl|li^ a claim In the Yukon district? Would 
 ItOJiK gentlemen opposite like to know ? I 
 Wip tell them. The man who first staked 
 ^ toinlng claim, as a Government official, 
 Wm Captain Charles Constantiue, the mln- 
 H^*' recorder appointed by hon. gentlemen 
 oMOlBite, and It was done in January, 1896, 
 But > ipaouths before this Government took 
 It was done under the law, and re- 
 ilons, and practice which were inaugu- 
 by the hon. gentlemen opposite. Can 
 nderstand that ? ^\r. Constantine was 
 cer under the late government. He was 
 in pursuance of the instructions he 
 ;nd he was within the law, and he was 
 his rights. The Government had no 
 to say that he was wrong, because he 
 ever been told not to do It. He staked 
 ^Jclalms in January, 1898, and he was 
 ing recorder himself at that time. I 
 
 m 
 
 CQ1 
 
 a 
 
 do not think hon. gentlemen can find that 
 Thomas Fawcett or Mr. Senkler, the Gold 
 Commissioner, ever recorded any claims in 
 their own names. More than that, Mr. 
 Speaker, Captain Constantine recorded 
 something like twenty-two claims In the 
 name of other men In the employ of the 
 Government. The practice of recording 
 mining claims by men In the employ of the 
 Government was in full swing, uncheck- 
 ed and unnoted, before this Government 
 came into office. Mr. Wade, one of the 
 officials whom I sent up there, came to 
 me, when I was standing on the quarter- 
 deck of th3 " Quadra," on the way to Skag- 
 way, and said to me : "I do not think It 
 Is likely that I will have any time to stake 
 claims ; but if I should desire to do so. Is 
 there anything in the law to prevent me 
 doing it ?" I thought for a minute, and 
 then said : " You are not an officer con- 
 nected with the administration of the min- 
 ing law in any way ; you have nothing to 
 do with the registration of mining claims 
 In any way, shape or form, directly or In- 
 directly, and I do not see anything that will 
 prevent you staking claims." This Is the 
 only conversation I ever had with Mr. Wade 
 on the subject, and I never had any other 
 conversation with any other officer on the 
 subject/ at all, and never gave any instruc- 
 tions. When I was speaking, I was speak- 
 ing upon the regulations. Last winter we 
 had down here from Dawson City, Dr. Wills, 
 surgeon, of the Mounted Police, a political 
 friend of hon. gentlemen opposite. When 
 he was here, the fact was circulated that 
 Dr. Wills had staked claims In the Yukon 
 district : It was a matter of common talk, 
 and It was referred to in the newspapers, 
 but we heard no howl from the Conserva* 
 tlve press of this country about the iniquity 
 of Government officials staking claims, not 
 a syllable. There was no harm In It until 
 Mr. Wade, a Liberal official, staked a claim. 
 That Is when the enormity arose. I do not 
 stand here to say that it Is desirable that 
 Governmeit officials should stake claims ; I 
 put my name to a recommendation to Coun- 
 cil to say they shall not. I have done that 
 as tno result of experience ; I am not like 
 the hon. gentleman, I am not too proud to 
 learn by experience. And, Sir, if I am la 
 fault In any way whatever, and If my col- 
 leagues are in fault In any way whatever, it 
 Is not for deteriorating the public service 
 of this country, but it is for not having fore- 
 sight enough to remedy the evil which was 
 done by gentlemen on the other side of the 
 House. My hon. friend (Sir Charles Hlbbert 
 Tupper) has made the charge — the hon. mem- 
 ber for York (Mr. Foster) vigorously sec- 
 onding him— tliat we did nothing in Dawson 
 City for sanitation, that we did nothing to 
 help anybody. Now, I am going lo give the 
 hen. gentleman something to look up and I 
 will give him a week to look it up. I want 
 hira to find for me and to cite it in this 
 House, a case in the North-west Territories, 
 
"■»»»» 
 
 III 
 
 till!!!! 
 
 30 
 
 where there had been no time for the estab- 
 lishment of a local administration, of any 
 town where the Federal Government ever 
 did anything for sanitation. I want him to 
 cite me Just one such case if he can. We 
 Lave been opening up new places in Canada 
 for a great many years, and I want him 
 to find just one place where, before the or- 
 ganization of a local governing body, the 
 Federal Government has done anything for 
 sanitation. I will give these hon. gentlemen 
 opposite an illustration of what happened 
 In the town I lived in where the very same 
 thing happened— only the conditions were 
 not nearly so aggravated— as in Dawson. 
 When the town of Brandon was opened up, 
 four thousand or five thousand people sud- 
 denly planted themselves on the side of a 
 hill ; the ladies stayed in the house and the- 
 men wallied around In top boots, up to their 
 knees in mud for a considerable len:?th of 
 time. We did not growl about the neglect of 
 the Government ; we did not want the T'ede- 
 ral Goverament to put dSwn sidewalks and 
 take sanitary measures, but we met and 
 formed a town committee and with our own 
 money put down sidewalks for ourselves. 
 
 iVT, — rs * , i , ■ , — ^-»^^..x,^. uiii-y case or persons wuo are uesmuie. UD 
 
 That is what every place has done under the , to the present time, people have made It a 
 
 Care of Indigent persona | OlOl 
 
 do do nut 
 
 do do 7,00o| 
 
 Altogether, for relief, for works practlcallyj 
 of charity and local help, there has beonl 
 Hpent up to the present time, no less a sural 
 tlian $44,183. Let the hon. gentlemen lool(| 
 up their records and show me where theyl 
 ever made the faintest pretense of dolngi 
 anything of the kind, and then It will bel 
 time for them to come here and talk to usl 
 about neglect. I have no record of the ex J 
 act amount of relief that was given by tbel 
 Mounted Police, but the Mounted Police upon I 
 the trail practically fed every one who camel 
 along and who had not food. That has beenl 
 apparently a necessity of the situation andl 
 I have not felt like giving orders to the) 
 contrary. But at the present time I Intend,! 
 when the spring opens, to give orders thaTJ 
 I'.ereafter people will have to feed them- 1 
 solves, and the police will stop giving out! 
 provisions, as there is no excuse for people! 
 b'jing there, after the first month of sprim,'! 
 without being iv a condition to take care off 
 themselves ; except, of course. In the ordl 
 hary case of persons who are destitute. Up! 
 
 same circumstances. I would like the hon. 
 gentlemen to hunt up a case where anything 
 else has been done, except In the case of this 
 very Dawson City. Here are the amounts 
 wliicli have been spent, according to our 
 last returns, for assistance of various kinds 
 at Dawsoa ; 
 
 Paid for work on Bonanza Creek trail.. $4,000 
 
 Donation to hospital 5,000 
 
 Fire engine, Dawson 2,500 
 
 Did the hon. gentlemen opposite ever buy 
 
 business— and there seems to have been uo-| 
 riling to prevent It— of preying upon thef 
 l?ollce for supplies, and so In addition to thef 
 amounts I have read the police have glveEl 
 a very large amount for relief. I beg to sayl 
 further, that according to the estimates of| 
 Mr. Ogilvie which have been provided fori 
 l)y his council, similar assistance for locali 
 improvements and relief for the six monthsl 
 from the 1st of January, 1899, to the SOth- 
 
 ,^.^. __^ June, 1899, will be no less a sum than $83,- 
 
 a fire engine fo"r any town fn the Xorth-weYt S^> ™ost of wnlch will be provided for out ] 
 
 Territories ? If they did I would like them 
 to cite the case. 
 
 Donation to tlie liospital |2,500 
 
 Other donation to hospital 1,000 
 
 do do 1,000 
 
 do do 2,000 
 
 Donation to an Individual to enable him 
 
 to leave the Yukon owing to illness.... 420 
 
 Work on the Bonanza trail. 200 
 
 Another hospital grant 2,000 
 
 do do 2,000 
 
 Repairing roads and bridges, Bonanza 
 
 Creek 80 
 
 Contribution to the Are brigade 1,000 
 
 Hospital at Grand Porks 850 
 
 Another hospital donation 183 
 
 Treatment of indigent patients 345 
 
 When did these hon. gentlemen opposite pay 
 for medical treatment in the North-west 
 Territories ? 
 
 Another advance to an hospiUl $3,000 
 
 Small amount f-r .elief ig 
 
 Small amount for work In connection 
 
 with the fire jg 
 
 Voted by the Council to fit up part of tlie 
 
 buildings for an almshouse 2 000 
 
 Another hospital grant '527 
 
 Treatment of indigent patients....." ,".*,' .".*.' 155 
 
 Another grant to hospital 440 
 
 Indigent patients ' ' * 375 
 
 do 
 
 6,000 
 
 of local revenue, 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, who are the people that 
 we are treating me<^llcally, who are the peo' 
 pie that we are feeding ? Who are the peo- 
 ple that we are housing ? Are they Cana- 
 dians ; are they our own citizens ? Not a bli 
 of It ; nine out of ten of them are foreigners, 
 —men who went there when we advised 
 them not to go. I Issued an emphatic warn- 
 ing last fall ; I pointed out what would be 
 the result of a great many of these people 
 going there. And the Secretary of the In- 
 terior of the United States did the 
 same thing. But they went there notwith- 
 standing ; every man thinks, of course, that 
 whoever else gets killed or whoever else 
 gets Into trouble he will come back all right 
 However, the people went In and they arc 
 there. There are hundreds, I was almoEt 
 going to say thousands of men who have 
 spent all they had In that country, and wlio 
 are not able to take care of themselves. We 
 have been feeding and caring for and fur- 
 nishing hospital accommodation for these 
 men, foreigners who simply went In there 
 because they wanted to carry away Cana- 
 dian gold, and having no regard for us and 
 having no regard for our Institutions. I 
 Mill venture to say that there has never 
 been a district opened up on this continent 
 
RV 
 
 31 
 
 I niol 
 
 50 
 
 7,000 
 
 orks practically 
 there has been 
 !, no less a sum 
 gentlemen look 
 me where they 
 •tense of doing 
 then it will be 
 
 and talk to us 
 ■cord of the ex- 
 IS given by the 
 ited Police upon 
 r one who came 
 
 That has been 
 e situation and 
 
 orders to the 
 t time I Intend, 
 :ive orders tha! 
 
 to feed them- 
 stop giving out 
 cuse for people 
 lonth of sprifli! 
 to take care of J 
 se, In the ord; 
 e destitute. Up 
 liave made it a 
 I have been uo 
 ying upon the 
 addition to tlie 
 lice have given 
 f. I lJ€g to say 
 le estimates of 
 n provided for 
 tance for local^ 
 the six months '- 
 99, to the SOtli 
 sum than $83,- 
 rovided for out 
 
 the people that 
 lio are the peo' 
 tio are the pe* 
 Lre they Cana^ 
 sns ? Not a bit >^; 
 are foreigners,'^' 
 m we advised *' 
 emphatic warn- - 
 ivhat would be 
 )f these people 
 tary of the In- 
 ates did the 
 there notwitb 
 of course, that 
 whoever else 
 back all right 
 and they utk' 
 I was almost 
 uen who have 
 intry, and who f; 
 lemselves. We 
 ? for and fur- 
 :ion for thef:e 
 went in there 
 y away Cana- 
 ird for us and 
 istltutlons. I 
 are has never 
 this continent 
 
 There as much has been done by the Gov- 
 rnment for the people as has been done for 
 le people In the Yukon district by the Fede- 
 il Government of Canada. We fed these 
 ftoplo when they bad nothing to eat. We 
 Bnt police out to hunt for them when they 
 cere lost We did everything for them, 
 tcept to find for each one a good paying 
 lalm, and four-flf ths of this row is because 
 ire did not do that. Now, I must apologlzf 
 }r speaking so long. 
 Some hon. MEMBKRS. Go on. • 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOIt. 
 his explanation has only got to be given 
 ce, and it might as well be given tirst as 
 St while we are at it. The ofHcers of the 
 strict have been attaclied on account of 
 hat is known as the water front trans- 
 tion. I will give the House the parlicuhirs 
 it. Mr. Wade, after going to Dawson, 
 nsulted with Mr. Fawcett, and thoy came 
 the conclusion, according to the statement 
 ven to me, that the occupation of a certain 
 jj^ece of the water front was inadvisable, for 
 sanitary reasons. The people were camped 
 ug on a narrow strip of the water front ; 
 d the House will understand, without fur- 
 r explanation, that that was not a de- 
 able state of things. Mr. Wade and Mr. 
 wcett called for tenders for a lease of this 
 ater front upon certain conditions. There 
 ere no newspapers at the time, but they 
 nt out word to the leading men of the 
 wn. Inviting them to tender. They received 
 le following tenders : W. Burk, yearly rent- 
 of $3,000, payable quarterly ; M. L. D. 
 lelzer, offered an annual rental of $120 for 
 iHch 25 feet, and on the same date made an 
 lliter of $7,500 yearly ; Drunsmore, Spencer 
 McPhee offered a rental of $25,000 a year, 
 ;yable monthly, in advance ; John Gamer- 
 offered a monthly rental of $2,050 ; Mor- 
 ion & McDonald offered a rent of $30,000 
 IT annum. Morrison & McDonald's tender 
 ■being the highest, the land was leased to 
 ^em. The lease was for one year, with 
 wer to the Government or its olBcer to ter- 
 inate It on one month's notice. The streets 
 ere all permitted to extend through the 
 later front to the river. These are the par- 
 lulars of that transaction. I do not see any 
 ing on the face of the transaction that Is 
 proper. It has been Intimated to the House 
 at the men who leased this property im- 
 .ediately turned round and leased portions 
 it for very much larger sums. That Is 
 le ground of attack on Mr. Wade and Mr. 
 wcett. Another ground is that the men 
 o were on the land ought to have been 
 -«#irmitted to have kept it for nothing. So 
 vf|>u may pay your money and take 
 your choice. One ground is, that they 
 „-otd not get enough rent for the land ; 
 other Is, that the people who were 
 it ought to have been permitted to occupy 
 without paying any rent. If they did not 
 enough rent, that was not their fault, 
 ause they called for tenders, and gave 
 lease to the highest tenderer. When 
 
 Major Walsh went to the Yukon, he con- 
 firmed the transaction. I have no knowledge 
 of anything incorrect or Improper about it. 
 There is nothing on the face of It to in- 
 dicate any impropriety. On the contrary, 
 there is everyt) iig on the face of it to In- 
 dicate that it was eminently proper, and 
 what any reasonable man would do under 
 the circumstances to get some revenue for 
 the Government, and to hav^ this piece of 
 ground placed in the hands of tenants who 
 would keep It in proper order. I have letters 
 here, which I will read at a later date, show- 
 ing the terms of the lease, and they show that 
 sidewalks were to be erected on the ground 
 and proper sanitary precautions taken. Mr. 
 Wade, I may say, emphatically and positive- 
 ly denies that there was the least shadow of 
 Impropriety in any shape or form about the 
 transaction, and he challenges anybody to 
 call him before Mr. Ogllvie and have inves- 
 tigated any charge that may be made 
 against him in connection with It. In one 
 of the statements which was read by the 
 hon. member for Pictou, it was stated tliat 
 Judge Magulre had an interest In this trans- 
 action. Of Judge Maguire I will speak at a 
 later dale ; but, in the meantime, I may 
 state that after the hon. gentleman had made 
 his speech I telegrapher! to Judge Maguire 
 In regard to the matter, and I have his an- 
 swer, as follows : 
 
 West Prince Albert, April 1. 
 I have never had any Interest whatever, di- 
 rectly or indirectly, In water front lease at Daw- 
 son. 
 
 THOS. H. MAGUIRE. 
 
 The House will note, Mr. Speaker, that the 
 lease contained a provision that it should 
 be terminable at one month's notice ; and if 
 the officers saw, after the lease had been 
 granted, that what was alleged was actually 
 taking place, that the tenants were getting 
 $120,000 a year, and were only paying $30,- 
 000, they could cancel the lease at a month's 
 notice, and they would have promptly done 
 so. The lease came into force on the 9th of 
 April. Mr. Ogllvie arrived back at Dawson, 
 I think, in the latter part of September ; and 
 if Mr. Ogllvie, on the ground, thought the 
 lease was not in the public interest, he had 
 the power to cancel it at a month's notice ; 
 but up to the present time, he has not ad- 
 vised me that he has cancelled It. So my 
 Impression Is that Mr. Ogllvie has come to 
 the conclusion that the lease was In the pub- 
 lic interest. As to the policy of the matter, 
 whether the lease was advisable or not, no 
 one In this House can tell. I cannot tell, 
 nor can any of my colleagues tell. Only 
 those on the ground can tell. 
 
 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). May I ask the 
 hon. gentleman if he will put the lease of 
 this water front on the Table of the House ? 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. 
 Will it answer the hon. gentleman's purpose 
 If I do so to-morrow when the House meets ? 
 
1M!iil|l| 
 
 i::;ii 
 
 
 h\i r! 
 
 82 
 
 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). No, It would not ' Kces to a newspaper office and says he was 
 quite as well. , beaten out of a valuable claim by the offl. 
 
 : ci.ils and who never stated In the Minlstor's 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, office that he had lost his claim or mado 
 I win do so when I cease speaking to-night. : nny complaint whatever. Mr. Leblanc said 
 
 The papers are all here, 
 
 Now If the House will permit me, I am 
 going to examine a few of the statements 
 made by the hon. member for Plctou's wit- 
 
 that Mrs. Dubois lost a claim by anothoi' 
 person taking It up while she was waltin- 
 for a survey, and that one J. S. Murdocic 
 got it registered. So far as that Is concern 
 
 nesses. First, Major Caddell said : That ; cd, If that be the case, all that Mrs. Dubois 
 three men had staked claims, and appUed to has to do Is to walk Into Mr. Ogllvle's otlicn 
 record them, and were told to come b^ck In and prove, those facts and she will get hi r 
 two or three days, and when they did go claim at once. And I have to say that Mrs. 
 back they found that the claims had l)een Dubois and the rest of the public In Dawson 
 recorded by somebody else. 1 have already City have been notified to do that very 
 stated that In my judgment that does not ' thing, and If she has not done It, It Is hcV 
 afford the slightest evidence that there was own fault, not mine or the fault of the Gov- 
 any crookedness in connection with the mat- j ernment. Mr. Ogilvie was sent his commis- 
 ter. They could readily have gone to the ; ision, and here is a copy of the notice which 
 Gold Commissioner and entered a protest, he issued : 
 and had their protest tried like anybody else, j 
 
 Dr. Leblanc Is cited as another witness bvj PUBLIC NOTICE, 
 
 the hon. member for Plctou. I presume the: t,„ .„ w^^rv, if ^^„ n«„„->..« . 
 hon. member is quoting from an intei-vl-iw Z^'^'^'' ^,'''"" '' f^^^ °T "1 . . o , 
 with Dr. Leblanc, which appeared in a Mont- ' r^^^L^^i'Tavf h?', Tn*^^"", 1^1 ^'^^^v,^?"'. V^ 
 re.U papery He stated that he had staked al^^J^^^^^ ^:stS'^^n^rX^Zl 
 claim on Bonanza Creek and lost It because I tain matters and things in such letters patent 
 he did not stand in with the officials. After | referred to. The scope of the Investigation will 
 Dr. Leblanc came back from the Yukon, he i appear from the preamble as follows : — 
 came to my private secretary's office, and j Whereas it appears from a report from Our 
 sent word by my private secretary to me, ' Minister of the Interior of Canada that he had 
 not that he wished to see me, but to know i "'"'''■■ consideration a coraunicatlon dated at 
 If I wanted to see him. I asked my private 1 ?,^^f "• 7"^°" '^^Jl\°''li ^^'^ "IV^^lV ^^-^l',,^^: 
 secretary if he had any business with me, ! Ser Preml'er'!,fcanada°sSid bTo'^T'^c 
 and he told me that Dr. Leblanc said he had ; Armstrong, as chairman, Percy McDougail, sec- 
 no business with me, but wanted to know ; retary, and a number of other persons professing 
 fi I wanted to see him. I instinicted my to have been duly appointed a miners' committee 
 jrivate secretary that if he had no business j at a mass meeting of the miners of the Yukon 
 vilh me, I did not want to see him. He did ' Territory, in which communication it Is alleged 
 not enter any complaint or suggest any com- i i^^' '"i^py ot the Government ofllclala have for- 
 plaint; and I desire to know what weight i ''"'''^ ,^\^"" ,1^'"^ '° the people's confidence and 
 t!ip memliers of this House qttnoh to n etntP- ^ 'aspect by their conduct and action In certain 
 tuc memoeis or tnis iiouse aitacn to a state- , matters. • Our said Minister further observes that 
 ment of a man who, when he comes back ; the committee alleges that the Gold Commis- 
 from the Yukon district, says he staked a i sloner's ofBce is practically closed, and has been 
 valuable claim on Bonanza Creek, and lost . for a considerable time to the miners who had not 
 It because he did not stand in with the offl- I the means and desire to bribe the clerks In order 
 cials, and then comes to the office of the I *° obtain knowledge of the record which ought 
 Minister who has the power to right the ' ?° ^^ public. It is further charged that wholesale 
 wrong, if there was a wrong, and does not l"fo''inatlon with regard to unrecorded iground 
 
 take the trouble to say that there was a 
 wrong, or to lodge a complaint of any sort. 
 Would auy body pay any attention to a 
 statement of tliat kind. If he lost a claim, 
 why did he not say so ? They must be a 
 ^ ery extraordinary lot of people who have 
 gone to the Yukon district. I have lived in 
 the west a great many years, and out there, 
 if any body undertook to defraud any one 
 of his property, the one defrauded would 
 very soon make a complaint ; and if any 
 ;r>an undertakes to defraud another of a 
 homestead in the North-west Territories, 
 what Is the result. You will find a pile of 
 papers that high, you will find that officer 
 after officer, clerk after clerk, commissioner 
 after commissioner, Minister after Minister 
 has to Invest that homestead matter. That 
 is the history of the Department of the In- 
 terior. But here we are told that we should 
 believe the evidence of a man who coolly 
 
 Is conveyed to certain individuals outside ti:e 
 office who obtain men to stake and record the 
 ground in consideration of an interest in the 
 same. Our Minister further stated that It Is 
 charged that dissatisfaction has arisen with re- 
 spect to decisions in claim contests, particularly 
 owing to the Crown prosecutor, who, while re- 
 tained as advocate by one of the contestants, 
 was giving lesral advice to the Gold Commis- 
 sioner. The Dominion Lands ap' nt is openly 
 charged with s,erlous breaches of i ust and mal- 
 feasance In office, aud some of the officials con- 
 nected with the recorder's office are alleged to he 
 incompetent. Our said Minister further submits 
 that it is stated in the communication that hard- 
 ships have been caused to many of the claim 
 owners owing to the want of experience of the 
 mining Inspectors. The committee further re- 
 presents that the Crown timber agent has granted 
 such concessions and laid down such stringent 
 regulations that only a few parties have the pri- 
 vilege of supplying cord-wood this coming winter. 
 
 I may say. and the House will be surprised 
 to learn, that the complaint about the cord- 
 
83 
 
 d says he was 
 m by the offl. 
 
 the Minister's 
 laim or made 
 . Leblanc said 
 m by another 
 e was waiting 
 J. S. Murdock 
 !iat Is eoncern- 
 it Mrs. Dubois 
 Ogllvle's ollice 
 le will get hir 
 
 say that Mrs. 
 t)llc Jn Dawson 
 
 do that very 
 ae It, It Is her 
 ilt of the Gov- 
 Qt his commis- 
 B notice which 
 
 CB. 
 
 Great Seal of 
 I'.ir Majesty's 
 Inquire Into cer- 
 h letters patent 
 ivestigation will 
 Hows : — 
 eport from Our 
 Ida that he had 
 ition dated at 
 LUgust, 1898, ad- 
 ble Sir Wilfrid 
 led by G. T. C. 
 McDougall, sec- 
 rsons professing 
 ners' committee 
 s of the Yukon 
 ion it la alleged 
 ncials have for- 
 confldence and 
 tion in certain 
 Br observes that 
 Gold Commis- 
 1, and has been 
 srs who had not 
 clerks In ordfr 
 •d which ought, 
 that wholesale 
 ecorded (grounfl 
 lis outside tiie 
 and record the 
 interest in the 
 ited that It is 
 arisen with re- 
 ts, particularly 
 who, while re- 
 he contestants. 
 Gold Commis- 
 P' tit is openly 
 I . ust and mal- 
 le offlcials con- 
 -e alleged to he 
 urther submits 
 tion that har'l- 
 of the claim 
 ^erlence of the 
 tee further re- 
 ent has granted 
 such stringent 
 s have the pri- 
 coming wlntpr. 
 
 be surprised 
 tout the cord- 
 
 was made because Major Walsh Issued 
 order forbidding the granting of any con- 
 slons within six miles of Dawson, and 
 Is he did In order that the people In Daw- 
 »n would have all the timber within six 
 lies of It for their supply. The order was 
 le for their own benefit ; 
 
 account of this and other reasons set forth 
 
 ) communication referred to, a copy of which 
 
 hereto attached, the committee ask for the 
 
 intment of a commission of Inquiry, 
 nd whereas we deem it expedient that inquiry 
 ier oath should be made with respect to the 
 h or untruth of the foregoing charges, state- 
 ts and complaints. 
 
 ublic notice is hereby given that on Monday, 
 
 6th day of February, 1899, at the hour of 11 
 
 ock in the forenoon, I will sit in the Court 
 
 e In Dawson, for the purpose of fixing a 
 
 within which charges conolng within the 
 
 1 of the letters patent are to be laid before 
 
 and let all persons desirous of prosecuting 
 
 such charges then appear and they shall be 
 
 d either in person or by counsel, as they may 
 
 Wtfer. 
 
 (Iter the expiration of the time to be fixed for 
 
 g charges before me I shall proceed to fix 
 
 e and place for the Investigation of such 
 
 :es, of which time and place dut> and public 
 
 will be given, 
 .ted at Dawson this 25th day of January, 
 1899. 
 
 WM. OQILVIB. 
 
 Commissioner, 
 rs. Dubois has lost her claim, as Dr 
 lane says she has, all she has to do Is to 
 In to Mr. Ogllvle's court aud make her 
 ment, and she will get her claim if sha, 
 prove the facts to be true. I do not see 
 any further action can be required of 
 "overnment. 
 
 iw. I want to take up another statement 
 by the hon. member for Plctou, and 
 ., h I think affected the House In a cer- 
 tlJDI way more than any other statement he 
 iniae. Upon page 796 of " Hansard." the 
 %^. gentleman quoted from a gentleman 
 ""se name, lllte most of those whom he 
 :ed, was not given, and what 1 propose 
 Is this : I propose to take up the alie- 
 ns of the corrupt acts, where I have 
 positive means of getting at the truth of 
 myself from the records in the office, 
 show the House the reliability of these 
 ments. The first statement I find I 
 any means of checking at ail— the 
 ns are not absolute, but I place them 
 re the House as they are— is this with 
 d to the water front, made by this 
 lymous witness : 
 
 was well understood In Dawson that Mr. 
 and Major Walsh (and it was said Judge 
 ire) held a half interest In this lease. 
 
 I JBall read Major Walsh's denial before I 
 
 through ; I have already read Judge 
 
 Maguire's denial. Mr. Wade has denied It 
 
 Itively and emphatically, publicly and 
 
 rwlse, and has gone back to Dawson 
 
 to appear before the Commissioner, 
 
 handing in his resignation down here. 
 
 here is tha gem, I was going to say, but 
 
 on S— 3 
 
 It Is not— the gem is to come later. This 
 gentleman says : 
 
 These claims 
 
 —Referring to the claims upon Dominion 
 Creek- 
 
 were sent out 
 
 The House will note the language this gen- • 
 tleman used and which was quoted by the 
 hon. member for Plctou : 
 
 .were sent out by the Gold Commissioner to 
 
 be sold in Ottawa, supposedly at private auction, 
 and Wade himself said, to my knowledge, that 
 he proposed to get hold of all the unrecorded 
 claims upon Dominion Creek. If the Qovenuuent 
 proceeded to do what they had no right to do, 
 to deny these prospectors the right of recording 
 their claims, they should have put the claims up 
 at public auction, first at Dawson, so as to allow 
 the men who bad developed and Improved them 
 a chance to purchase the same, and not send 
 them to Ottawa, where they could be disposed of 
 at private sale to a syndicate working in the In- 
 terest of Walsh at a nominal figure, which 
 
 Says this veracious gentleman— 
 
 1 presume, has been done by this time. Cer- 
 tain it is that none of these claims have been 
 sold in Dawson, where, according to law, if any 
 public sale takes place, they should have been 
 sold. 
 
 Now, SO far as the rights of prospectors 
 are concerned, the rule I have made, upon 
 the information that has come to me, Is 
 this : That any mrin who is shown to have 
 staked a claim upon Dominion Creek before 
 the order was made closing the creek, will 
 gei\ his claim ; and If, through any cause, 
 two men came into contest for the sajne 
 claim, then the man who has staked a 
 claim will get one of the reserve claims or 
 one of the fractions. If he has not staked 
 a claim before the order was made closing 
 the creek, he will not get a claim. The 
 order was made by Major Walsh to reserve 
 certain claims and fractions, In pursuance 
 of the policy of the Government, and in ac- 
 cordance with the regulations. So, Major 
 Walsh, instead of doing what was stated 
 here, either sent to me, or brought with him 
 —I think he brought It down— the record of 
 the claims and fractions upon Dominion 
 Creek ; and they were brought here for the 
 purpose of being recorded as Government 
 property, that they might be sold, not for 
 the benefit of Walsh or Wood, but for the 
 benefit of the public exchequer, Mr. Speak- 
 er, you can form some idea of what the evi- 
 dence of a witness Is worth, when he makes 
 a statement such as I have read. If a man 
 went into the witness-box and deliberately 
 made statements that he presumed a rascal- 
 ly transaction had been carried out, with- 
 out the least knowledge as to whether it had 
 been or not— impugning the character of a 
 man without the slightest evidence, what 
 possible importance could be attached to his 
 statements ? Now, I will close this by read- 
 ing the departmental letter, which shovni 
 what was actually done. Major Walsh came 
 
Ill I III 
 
 ' i ll 
 
 i 
 
 34 
 
 letter to Mr. Ogllvle :— 
 
 Ottawa, eth October, 1898. 
 Dear Mr. Ogllvle,— 
 I have spent to-day In consultation with Major 
 
 Siiciiker, we have what I cull the gem of the 
 tt'stiiiioiiy whifh the lion. Kenlleiuan buH of- 
 fcit'd lH'fon> this lIoiiHO. AlthouKh It is in 
 sonic roapoc'ts object lonnblc. I presume to 
 cinl it. Ho goes on to spoali of a dispute Id 
 
 "Walsh, your predecessor In olllce, and have gone n.^rnn] to a cliilni between a man naiiii'd 
 
 carefully Into the Donilnliin Creok matter. I nin Donnelley, and a man named Nelson, who 
 
 writing you now for tho purpose of saying that , , ^, partner a woman named Lueiie 
 
 so far as I can Judge I fully approve of his ' ' . .. nnrtlculars of this 
 
 action In reserving the fractions and other claims '•'""•, ^'"^ '^'^'.^ '"„ ' 1 , "' , lu ,' 
 
 which have been reserved upon Dominion Creek, wl.icli hon. members cau read, und then he 
 
 These fractions and claims so reserved have been ^oes on to say : 
 
 l!:l;lt^!r;j;^,^irr?l^:l;:mr?;^?':;e':!i -ruey had no other proof to bring, and restoa 
 
 not so roservt'd, owing to dilllcultloa In recording 
 The clalnia and fractions reserved will be held for 
 disposal by the Government In such manner as 
 
 tlicir point. Judge Maguire stated that unlcaa 
 Linlle and Andy could bring positive proof of the 
 stauing of tho claim, he would advise Mr. Faw- 
 
 may ho deemod a.lvlnable. My present Idea, in , ;■^'^L^r!-l";L'i'.^.?„lr!^.Llf„,',^fi';.''l!!"!!'' 
 
 rigard to tho disposal of these claims is, that 
 Inasmuch as they are snid to be e.xtremely valu- 
 able, they should be advertised In London. New 
 
 It tor want of any proof on behalf of the plain- 
 tiff. The case was then adjourned for one week. 
 I'liat night, about U o'clock, Luclle Elliott 
 
 York, different cities In Canada, and In Dawson i ;;""o »P 1° Major Walsh's tout ; he had re 
 
 City, and that they should be sold by public 
 tender to be received and opened by yourself In 
 
 llred ; she remained until morning and svas 
 sent up tho river about 8 o'clock In Major 
 
 Dawson CItv some time next spring. I ishall be , Walsh's canoe, accompanied by his private sec- 
 glad to have your views upon this question at I'-'afy- «n^, ^^''■'^'^ ^y the Government policemen, 
 vour convenience I '■'"cHo Elliott continued her nightly visits to 
 
 For the purpose of checking over the Hat of ^'fJ","" Wa'sh during the continuance of the trial, 
 the Dominion Creek claims, which Major Walsh* I ^^i '','"''•'' '^ needless to state, was decided In Lu- 
 brought down, T think It will be desirable for '"i- «, favour. Major Walsh, at the time of his 
 you to send down a plan and certified list of all "''■"•''""s llason with Luclle, was the Commls- 
 claims. Major Walsh expressed a fear that there ' "'""^II <>' 'l^" Yukon, with full powers to remove 
 might possibly be a mistake in the papers he ! *•'■ Pa^vcott. and to reverse his decisions and 
 
 brought down. 
 
 Yours faKhfully, 
 . (Sgd.) CLIFFORD SIFTON. 
 
 The Hovi.se will judffe 
 
 acts. And after the case was decided, Donnelley 
 was notified Indirectly that If hn would not appeal 
 the case he (Major Walsh) would see that he 
 received a grant for a claim down on Lower Do- 
 I have given thp 1 minion Creek. 
 
 facts. The statement of the hon. member i o^ i^o, =tn+„^«„+ i^ 4^i <. ikr 4 ttt i v 
 l,r Plctou's witness is, that claims were : ,,^' ^^f « 2*^'?^"* 's- "^'^^ ^«^^^ 
 
 sent down here that they might be boodled i nZn ni m^' T^nJ''Z^\!'' JZ^?^ *^f ft 
 In by Major Walsh cislon of Mr. Pawcett, that Major Walsh 
 
 Then. Mr. Speaker, this same veracious | i^Sf^ I!^^'<^«" *« K'^^ an unrighteous 
 witness goes on to make a statement about '/.'^f '^ion In favour of this wrfman, and that 
 a womai. named Nellie Cashman, and an- ' l^^l 7^1]'"''' ,^T ^'"* '"P'i^P''^^ relations- 
 other named Belle Mulrooney. It appears ^^J'\ ^^ P't plain impllcatlon-wlth MaJ9r 
 that Miss Cashman had dlfliculty in getting 1 }J^}»^' Induced Major Walsh to exercise 
 a claim recorded, and It Is alleged that she i , "* Power. Mr. Speaker, the witness seems 
 made some Improper arrangement, and that I ^^ ^''ff^* *"^*' ^'^ ^''•^ ^''^^ paragraph, he 
 Captain Norwood, an ofBcer of the Govern- l,'^^! *"^ case was -.-i.- 1 by Judge Maguire. 
 ment, was a party to It. And a similar ' ?,**• *^® allegation. v> lim it is sifted. Is, tliat 
 statemc-ut, not exactly the same, but an alle- i Ir, ??f ""^r^,^!'*'!"'"-'' ^^'^^^^ Walsh, nud 
 gatlou of Impropriety, Is made In connection ■ i"at Major Walsh nfl'ienced Judge Maguire 
 with the claim of one Talmadge. These two ) :?,^'V.'*° unripls-'roi » decision In favour of 
 statements are made by the same anonvm- i , " claim. Now, Judge Maguire would not 
 ous witness as the one making the statement ' ^'^^ ^°^ ^'^^ worse man, If he had 
 
 which I have just shown to be untrue. 1 1 "^^° appointed by this Government. But he 
 have no means of knowing whether the state- 1 .^^'^^ ^'^^ appointed by this Government, but 
 
 ments to which I now refer are true or not. 
 But I have this to say : That if the hon. mem- 
 ber for Plctou wanted an Investigation, all 
 he had to do was to send the letter to Mr. 
 Ogllvle, and we would have had a report 
 showing whether the charge was true or 
 not. I ha. a to say, further, that Captain 
 Norwood If there, so that, as far as he Is 
 concerned, the matter can be Investigated. 
 Moreover, In view of the statements made 
 alwut other people by this same anonymous 
 witness, I should not think that there is much 
 
 by the late Government. And I differ from 
 the hon. member for Pictou In regard to the 
 character of Judge Maguire. I think he is a 
 most estimable man, a man of high character. 
 I appeal to this House, I appeal to the mem- , 
 ters from the North-west Territories, to say I 
 the estimation In which Judge Maguire is 
 held In thj North-west Territories, and as a 
 judge of the Supreme Court of the North- 
 west Territories. He sits there now, and I 
 appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, If it Is In ac- 
 cordance with the proper practice of this 
 
 
36 
 
 d that there Ig 
 )f his. At the 
 
 IH not true. I 
 Then, Mr. 
 he gem of the 
 loiuiin hiiH of. 
 ii>n(,'li ii 1h In 
 I iiresiinu' to 
 if a dispute In 
 
 man named 
 
 Nelson, who 
 ii.'itiHMl Lnclle 
 uliirs of this, 
 
 and then he 
 
 liiK, and rested 
 tuci that un)(^3g 
 
 Ive proof of the 
 dvlso Mr. Faw- 
 
 to say, dismiss 
 ilf of the plaln- 
 d for one week. 
 
 LuoUe Elliott 
 t ; bo had re- 
 nins and was 
 ock In Major 
 lis private aoc- 
 ncnt policemen, 
 ghtly visits to 
 nee nf the trial, 
 I decided in Lu- 
 ■he time of hU 
 s the Commls- 
 vvers to remove 
 s decisions and 
 llded, Donnelley 
 ^oiild not appeal 
 Id see that he 
 1 on Lower Do- 
 
 ijor Walsh, as 
 Bverse the de- 
 Major Walsh 
 a unrighteous 
 nan, and that 
 er relatlons- 
 — with Mnj9r 
 h to exercise 
 irVltness seems 
 taragraph, he 
 idge MaRuire. 
 lifted. Is, that 
 
 Walsh, iiud 
 udge Maguire 
 I In favour of 
 ire would not 
 n. If he liad 
 nent. But he 
 ernment, hut 
 '. differ from 
 ■egard to the 
 thlnlc he is a 
 igh character, 
 
 to the mem- 
 torles. to say 
 i Maguire Is 
 ies, and as a 
 f the North- 
 I now, and I 
 
 It Is in ae- 
 Jtlce of this 
 
 arllament that a statement of that kind 
 Rlwut a Superior Court Judge should l)o 
 read In this House unless the man who 
 reads It Is prepared to back It up. What are 
 the facts V To-morrow at three o'clock I 
 win lay the papers in this case upon the 
 Table of this House. The facta are these : 
 There were two certificates issued by Mr. 
 Fawcett for the same ground. Dominion 
 Creek was staked from what they called 
 Lower Discovery, and also from Upper DIs 
 covery. The parties came in and applied for 
 certllii-ates ; one was granted upon a claim 
 Btalcod one way, and another granted on the 
 Bame claim staked the other way. The result 
 was that thoy overlapped. The ground be- 
 tween the two discoveries had been exhaust- 
 ed, they overlapped, and there were two 
 ccrtlllcates granted for this particular claim. 
 A protoist was entered, the maiter came be- 
 fore Mr. Fawcett for decision. Mr. Fawcett 
 Bald it was a complicated case, and he called 
 In .Judge Maguire. The case was tried be- 
 fore .Fudge Maguire in due form of law. He 
 heard the evidence and heard counsel on 
 both sides. Apparently there was no official 
 irlng, because Mr. Wade was on the opposite 
 jgide from this woman, lie was for Mr. Dc 
 nelley in this case, and he argued it as well 
 8 he could. Judge Maguire gave a long 
 nd exhaustive written judgment in favour 
 f this woman and her partner. Mr. Faw- 
 :ett decided the case upon Judge Magulre's 
 ludguient, and signed it as Gold Commls- 
 iloner. Thoy appealed the case. Mr. Don 
 elley, apparently was in a position to fight 
 ior his rights. The case was appealed to 
 jipe at Ottawa. Mr. Samuel H. Blake was 
 ji^talned to argue the case for Donnelley, and 
 '^ see that he was not defrauded of his 
 'fights. I saw it was an important case, It 
 '%as the flr.st appeal coming before me, and 
 ■ as there were precedents to be made, and 
 ules to be laid doAvn as to what kind of 
 vidence should be admitted, I called In the 
 Inister of Justice, Hon. David Mills, and 
 e Secretary of State, Hon. Mr. Scott, two 
 wyers of long experience, both as public 
 en and as administrators. We heard the 
 ase in open court in the Railway Committee 
 oom upstairs, and the Minister of Justice, 
 he Secretary of State and myself unanl- 
 lously decided that Judge Maguire's judg- 
 ent was right. I will lay the papers in this 
 iase upon tlie Table of the House to-morrow, 
 nd any hon. gentleman can read them for 
 ilmself, and decide for himself. I say that 
 member of this House can conceive of a 
 ore outrageous accusation, a more outra- 
 feoous proceeding than to read any such in- 
 I^Blnuatlon as that. Why did not the hon. 
 entlenian write a note to me to ask if there 
 as any ground for supposing that Judge 
 aguire had given an unrighteous decision? 
 Surely that would not be much trouble for 
 an ex-Minister of Justice, a man who knows 
 his responsibility to Parliament and what Is 
 due a judge. Surely, before making such a 
 charge against a Judge, it would have been 
 wise for the hon. gentleman to send a clerk 
 
 to the department to look tip the papeni, to* 
 see what the record was, to know iMmethlug 
 about it, at least, before making such a 
 stnteiiHHU III rile lIoUHe. But iiollilng of 
 tliiit kind was doiii', and he reads iiu anony- 
 mous stati'ineut from a man, which bears 
 upon Its face. In the mind of any lawyer 
 accustomed to read and analyse statements 
 of facts, the plainest evidence of utter care- 
 lessness and recklessness, because any one 
 knowing anything about departmental busi- 
 ness would iiuow that tlie man mailing that 
 statenent could not have known anything 
 about the truth of what he was alleging. 
 Vet the member for Pictou makes that state- 
 ment without the least analy.sis or inquiry, 
 and places it before this House, to stand 
 iilion " Hansard " against Judge Maguire to 
 the last day of his life. Who can say that 
 (he man who reads that statement upon 
 " Hansard " ten years from now, will read 
 my reply at the same time ? When you put 
 sucli an allegation as that upon the " Han- 
 sard " of the House of Commons attacking 
 a man's character, you are doing a very 
 serious tiling. Tlien there is another thing. 
 
 We are charged with outrageously under- 
 paying our officials, that we sent a lot of 
 men up there and gave them starvation pay, 
 and consequently we could not expect them 
 to be honest. Well, Sir, here Is the list, aiid 
 here are the salaries. I think the salaries 
 are good. Mr. Ogllvie, the Commissioner, 
 gets $5,000. When he was employed by the 
 late Government, he got ?1.800. W. H. P. 
 Clement, legal adviser, gets $2,500 ; Mr. 
 Bliss, clerk of the Commissioner's staff, gehs 
 $900, and his salary increases to $1,200. An- ' 
 other clerk has .$900, another clerk $1,200. 
 Mr. Senkler, Gold Commissioner, gets $4,000, 
 the salary of a judge in the Court of Queen's 
 Bench for Ontario. Then there aie a num- 
 ber of clerks whose salaries run from $900 
 to $1,200. The registrar gets $2,000 ; the ab- 
 stract clerk gets $1,200 ; the controller, Mr. 
 Lithgow. gets $1,500 ; I think he only got 
 $1,000 or $1,100 fomerly. Mr. Snell, a clerk In 
 the controller's office, gets $1,200. The head 
 land agent gets $1,800, another clerk In his 
 office gets $1,500 ; timber inspector, $1,200 : 
 three clerks in Crown Timber office, $900 
 each. The cook gets $1,200. and the assistant 
 cook, $720. Now, be it known that the Gov- 
 ernment furnishes for these men both 
 quarters and provisions. The most of these 
 men were never as well oi¥ In their lives 
 before, financially, as they are now. I do not 
 find fault with that ; I think they ought lo be 
 better off than they were before, because 
 most of them are living away from their 
 families, and endure considerable hardship 
 nnd privation. We h.ave made them a little 
 better off than they were in the respective 
 positions from which they came. There is 
 no ground whatever for the suggestion that 
 our officials are underpaid. Now I will 
 prove that In this way. The officials there, 
 the heads of the department, have hired a 
 number of clerks in addition to the ones we 
 sent up, and they are all getting about one- 
 
36 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 I I 
 I 1 
 ' llill 
 
 Hi 
 
 ii'i 
 
 i*i(i 
 
 ^^B,^' 
 
 third less pay than the men we sent up ; so 
 that we are paying at least one-third more 
 than that labour Is worth In the open market 
 In Dawson. I think that fact conclusively 
 disposes of the charge that we underpay the 
 officials. My 'ion. friend the member for 
 Plctou said iliat we had treated Judge Ma- 
 gulre abominably, that he was dreadfully 
 Ill-used. The member for Plctou does not 
 agree with the judge in that respect, be- 
 cause I have In my office a letter from Judge 
 Maguire, thanking me and thanking the 
 Government for the great kindness and con- 
 sideration which had been shown to him 
 during his period of service In the Yukon 
 district. 
 
 Now, I am going to take up another wit- 
 ness of my hon. friend the member for 
 Plctou. It Is tedious, but we will go through 
 the whole of t'-.em and see what their evi- 
 dence is worth. I have gone through his 
 statenieuc and I find something specific, 
 something that we can get hold of, some- 
 thing that we can check, und see what his 
 evidence Is worth. This Is one of the anony- 
 mous statements, and, Mr. Speaker, mark 
 this, because one has to follow It closely in 
 order to get at the gravamen of the charge. 
 This man, speaking of the lease of the waver 
 front, says : 
 
 According to the terms of this lease, the leset^es 
 did not have to pay rent to the Government for 
 any of the water front until the same was occu- 
 pied by their lessees, thus incurring no responsi- 
 bility whatever. 
 
 Of course, if an officer of the Government 
 had made a lease of that kind he 
 would either be a fool or a knave ; there 
 is no doubt about that. There could not 
 be the least question about that ; he would 
 be either a fool cr a knave, because to put 
 himself under contract to somebody else, 
 without payment being provided for until 
 the rent is collected, would not be a busi- 
 ness transaction, and he would be either a 
 fool or knave. Perhaps that language is 
 too strong, but ;t would not be a business- 
 like transaction. But, Mr. Speaker, there 
 is not a word of truth in It. The papers 
 are here ; I will lay them on the Table of 
 the House, and the lease is there. The 
 lease is by letter, and there Is not a soli- 
 tary word of truth in the statement. I can- 
 not take all the statements that these men 
 ma^e ; of course there are many that are 
 mere flourishes, mere diatribes—" Mall and 
 Empire" editorials and Ottawn "Citizen" 
 editorials ; but here and there we come 
 across a statement that we can get hold 
 of. Of course, we cannot check them all ; 
 I have not the Information, but I have the 
 Information to check some of them, and I 
 am bound to say that In regard to any of 
 them in which I have the papers I am in a 
 position to show that thev are uuirue. This 
 same unnamed gentleman who made that 
 statement which was shown to be untrue, 
 says that he Is Informed that Mr. Wade re- 
 ceived $1,500 for giving somebody— he does 
 not say whom— the exclusive privilege of 
 
 maintaining a booth in the Klondlko Hel 
 says that he was so Informed. 'J .e man 
 who makes this statement is the man who 
 makes the statement that I have shown to b« 
 absolutely untrue. Of course we are unable 
 to check his statement that he was Informed 
 by somebody else whose name was not given i 
 tlJat Mr. Wade was bribed. But I would like 
 to ask my hon. friend who is going to follow 
 me, the member for Halifax (Mr. Borden),' 
 what Importance he would attach to evi- 
 dence of that kind. 
 
 There is another witness, Mr. Wood- 
 worth. Mr. Woodworth writes a long I 
 letter; he does not deal in specific state- 
 ments, there is nothing that one can get 
 hold of definitely, but he is very violent 
 in his abuse of me and generally of the] 
 policy of the Government. The hon. mem- 
 ber for Plctou was not In a position to give] 
 any Information as to who Mr. Wood- 
 worth was, and apparently he had not 
 taken any trouble to Inquire. He just 
 brings in Mr. Woodworth's letter and resd: 
 it, apparently without making any inquiry 
 as to whether this man was a reliable man 
 or a man of character or repute. I think 
 that when an hon. gentleman comes in and 
 asks Parliament to act upon the statement 
 of somebody, he ought to take some little 
 pains to find out what kind of a man It 
 is whom he cites as his authority. He 
 has given us the statements of a lot of 
 men whose names he has not mentioned, 
 and he wants us to take their statements 
 because he says he made inquiry and found 
 them to be reliable. Now, we have a man 
 here whose name is given, and I am going 
 to give the result of the Inquiry which I 
 have made as to whether this man Is re- 
 lialile or not. I find one statement here, 
 and I want to call the attention of the 
 House to the fact that this gentleman Is 
 a lawyer, and In speaking about a legal 
 matter, he cannot be excused for not tell- 
 ing what Is true. We will check up this 
 gentleman ; we will check up his reliabillt.T 
 on a question of fact, and see what his 
 evidence is worth. The acknowledged 
 method of dealing with a witness is to tflke 
 his statements one by one and see whether 
 what he tells is true or not. We have not 
 time to check up all this gentleman's state- 
 ments one by one, but I have them here, 
 Of course, he calls our officials Inefficient 
 but this Is a matter of opinion ; it Is not 
 a question of fact. He says : 
 
 A Mr. Thlell— 
 The name is Snell ; he Is the clerk of the 
 court, and Thlell Is apparently a misprint. 
 
 Is clerk of the court, tut, being without 
 
 legal training, he Is Incompetent to take exami- 
 nations, tax costs and do all that is required ot 
 a clerk of court- 
 There Is a straight statement that a man 
 who Is clerk of the court is not efficient. 
 Now, I have here an application from Mr. 
 Snell, who is the same man, to Mr. Ogilvie, 
 that he might be permanently appointed m 
 
 M 
 
 !^l/itl^ 
 
wnimvm 
 
 37 
 
 Klondlko HjI 
 ned. '1 .e uiaol 
 Is the man who! 
 lave shown to b(| 
 e we are unable I 
 tie was informed! 
 le was not given 
 But I would like 
 ) going to follow 
 X (Mr. Borden), I 
 
 attach to evl- 
 
 ss, Mr. Wood- 
 writes a long 
 1 specific state- 
 it one can get 
 is very violent 
 euerally of the 
 The hon. mem- 
 position to give 
 Uo Mr. Wood- 
 y he had not 
 aire. He just 
 etter and r^fld: 
 ng any inquiry 
 a reliable man 
 jpute. I think 
 Q comes In and 
 I the statement 
 nke some little 
 3 of a man It 
 luthority. Hu 
 ts of a lot of 
 not mentioned, 
 leir statements 
 uiry and found 
 ve have a man 
 nd I am going 
 quiry which I 
 lis man Is re- 
 tatement hero. 
 tention of the 
 gentleman Is 
 about a legal 
 d for not tell- 
 check up this 
 his reliability | 
 see what his " 
 acknowledged 
 ness is to take 
 d see whether 
 We have not 
 tleman's state- 
 re them here, 
 lals inefficient 
 ion ; It is not 
 
 ! clerk of the 
 ' a misprint. 
 
 being without 
 
 to take exami- 
 
 is required of 
 
 that a man 
 
 not efficient. 
 
 ion from Mr. 
 
 Mr. Ogilvle, 
 appointed m 
 
 *4*' 
 
 [Clerk of the court, a position, according to 
 iMr. W^oodworth, he is not fit to fill, and 
 fwhlch he is filling. This application to 
 iMr. Ogilvle has been forwarded to me, •and 
 lit is accompanied by a copy sent by Mr. 
 [Ogllvie to me, of the following certificate :— 
 
 We, the undersigned members of the Bar of the 
 [Territorial Court of the Yukon Territory, beg to 
 'recommend Mr. W. H. Snell for the position 
 [of territorial clerk. Mr. Snell has flUed this 
 Iposition most acceptably for some months padt, 
 land we most heartily and cordially endorse his 
 lappllcatlop. 
 
 This is signed by a whole list of the mem- 
 [bers of the bar from Dawson City, amongst 
 lothers, Mr. C. W. 0. Tabor, a well-known 
 IConaervative gentlem.nn, known, no doubt, 
 |to some men in tho House ; and signed 
 
 imongst others— unfortunately for the mem- 
 Iber for Pictou— by Mr. Arthur G. Smith, 
 pate Deputy Attorney General of British 
 
 Mumbia, and now* I am informed, a part- 
 
 ler of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir 
 
 Charles Hlbbert Tuppiir). 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Oh. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR 
 r. Sifton). Later on, we have a lengthy 
 Indictment of the whole administration of 
 e district, and everything, f:om first to 
 jiast, is outrageously wrong, according to 
 -this gentleman. The name is not given, but 
 ■""t is said by the hon. member for Pictou 
 ;Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) that this geu- 
 tleman writes what is called an official letter 
 |a a business way, and that is what is quoted 
 as nn abstract from this business letter. I 
 ; will not bother the House by reading it, but I 
 Jiust say to this House, that if any man in 
 this House will read that letter, he must 
 conclude that the reason why this man 
 wrote that letter was because he was dis- 
 satisfied with the royalty. That was the 
 j>nly reason why he wrote it ; the letter 
 iroves that ; it is thft burden of his song 
 Ihroughout. This gentleman attacks vici- 
 ously the administration. Will the House 
 elieve that this general diatribe against 
 e administration, in which Major Wa!sh 
 denounced as a fraud, was written on the 
 4th of June, only twenty-three days aftpr 
 'lajor Walsh got to Dawson City ? Of 
 hat value can that be as a criticism of the 
 ministration of Major Walsh ? 
 
 ^ Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Do I understand 
 'the hon. Minister to say, that Mr. Wood- 
 Worth's letter was dated in June ? 
 
 ' The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Sifton). Not Mr. Woodworth's letter ; 
 I s'ot through with that. I was speaking of 
 the letter which the hon. gentleman (Mr. 
 Borden) will see quoted in the speech as 
 having been written by a gentleman on offi- 
 cial business ; the name is not given. 
 
 Mr. Borden (Halifax). What page of 
 " Hansard " 7 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. 
 Sifton). The hon. gentleman will find the 
 
 date given by the hon. member for Pictou 
 (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) as the 14th of 
 June, at page 824 of the "Hansard." As I said, 
 that is twenty-three days after Major Walsh 
 got in. He would hardly have had time to 
 recover from the fatigues of his journey 
 and look around the town and see what 
 was going on. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have 
 got through the list of witnesses, ii they 
 can be called such, that the hon. member 
 for Pictou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) has 
 presented to 'his House. I have not been able 
 to check all the statements that he made, but 
 it will be noticed that one witness repeats 
 much the same thing, as did another In re- 
 gard to certain things. Then, there are gen- 
 eral paragraphs of denunciation, which we 
 cannot check, and which we have no means 
 of finding out anything about, as they are 
 mere statements of opinion. I have gone 
 through these statements, and I have picked 
 out the specific statements where I had any 
 means of checking up the accura''5 of the 
 witnesses, and. Sir, I have shown that, in 
 every ^ase where I have had any means of 
 checking the accuracy, the statements are 
 wrong and totally unfounded. I venture 
 now to say, that the oldecrt member of this 
 House will have difficulty in finding any 
 speech that has ever been placed before the 
 House of Commons of Canada in which 
 statements were placed before the House 
 for the purpose ci influencing the House, 
 where so msiiiy of the statements have 
 been found to be totally untrue. There are 
 three or four cases which I have no means 
 of knowing anything about : cases in which 
 it is said men or women had to give an in- 
 terest to officials to get their claims record- 
 ed. All I have to say is. that if the hon, 
 gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) h.ad 
 had the least desi'"e to have these matters in- 
 vestigated, to ha^'e Parliament Informed of 
 the facts— not by mere ex-parte anonymous 
 charges— but if he had the desire that Par- 
 liament should know whether these things 
 were true or not, why did he not write a 
 letter to Mi*. Ogllvie, when my deputy wrote 
 to him, asking him to send the information. If 
 he had it, so that it might be within, our power 
 to investigate it If he could not trust me, 
 if he could not trust the right hon. the 
 Prime Minister, if he could not trust Mr. 
 Ogilvle, for fear Mr. Ogilvle might suppress 
 it, why did not the hon. gentleman (Sir 
 Charles Hibbert Tupper) writo to one of the 
 two or three private detectives which he has 
 In Dawson City, and in two or three weeics 
 we would have a report, and we would not 
 be talking about hearsay, ou which we can 
 form no opinion as to whether there is any 
 foundation for it or not. 
 
 Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention one mat- 
 ter. Mr. Woodworth wrote a long letter. 
 I hesitate to attack anybody's character, 
 and I am not going to attack Mr. Wood- 
 worth's character ; but the hon. mem- 
 ber for Pl.-tou (Sir Chpries Hlbbert Tupper) 
 has brought to this House a statement sign- 
 ed by Mr. Woodworth, In which Mr. Wood- 
 
li 
 
 H ;i i 
 
 ; li'li < 
 
 i 
 
 88 
 
 . lev- 
 • r. ■ 
 
 worth makes unguaJ'fied attacks upon the 
 character of men who have hitherto had a 
 good character. It was due to this House 
 that the lion, member for PicLuU (Sir Charles 
 Hlbbert Tuppor) should have inquired into 
 the character of Mr. ^oodworth and his re- 
 liabiilty and credibility, before he read the 
 letter, aud it was due to the Government, 
 and it was due lo our officlais, that I should 
 make some inquiries .^nd inform the House 
 as well as I can as to what is known of this 
 gentleman. Well, I have not been able to find 
 out much. I communicated with the hon. 
 member for Yale and Cariboo (Mr. Bostock), 
 in whose constituency Mr. Woodworth lived 
 and practised before he left for Dawson. 
 Mr. Bostock telegraiphed to Mr. W. Tomlin- 
 eon, of New Denver, as fellows :— 
 
 What was C. M. Woodworth's reputation when 
 at Denver ? 
 
 And tlie reply came : 
 
 3rd April, 1899. 
 Hewitt Bostock, M.P., Ottawa. 
 Not good ; very ordinary ; doubtful material. 
 WM. TOMLINSON. 
 
 Now, of course, we ought to know about 
 Mr. Tomlinson, as to whether his statement 
 is good or not. And this is what is said 
 about him : " Mr. Tomlinson is a man for- 
 merly in the British Army, and for some 
 years back a respected citizen of New Den- 
 ver. Mr. Bostock has known him several 
 years, and will certify to his character ; and 
 the message was sent in order that it might 
 be read in Parliament." I am afraid, Mr. 
 Speaker, I am tirlug the House. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Go on. 
 
 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR 
 (Mr. Sifton). Now, Sir, I have detailed the 
 appointments which we made, and I think I 
 have justified the Government in the action 
 they took in making the various appoint- 
 ments. I have shown, I thinl"-, to the satis- 
 factiou, not only of members on this side of 
 the House, but— if we could look into their 
 heartf lo most of the members on the other 
 side of the Flouse, that there was no derelic- 
 tion of duty on tlie part of the Government 
 in making t'aese appointments ; and then I 
 
 ligation. To attempt to hold an Investigation 
 M lion nobody would make a charge is an px- 
 tramelj unsatisfactory and futile thing ; and 
 the investigation at Dawson City piiuiises 
 to be futile, though charges have been made, 
 lieoause the people who have made them 
 have apparently withdrawn them and will 
 not go before the commissioner and attompr 
 to prove them. When we had a ooiniiils- 
 sloiiiT in whom we had perfect confide.ice, 
 and had not an opportunity to consult him, 
 aud when nobody had made anytliing in 
 the nature of a specific charge, I tliink tk 
 House will say that the Government was 
 cei'tainly not blamable for not having ucted 
 sooner. 
 
 Miss Shaw's letter in the " Times " came 
 up. It has been said that we ought to Lave 
 acted instantaneously when that letter ap- 
 peared. I may be wrong, but I do not take 
 that view. The letter may perhaps have 
 been more injurious to the Government poli- 
 tically because it appeared in the "Times": 
 out 1 could sec no difference between a state- 
 niont made by Miss Shaw and sustained liy 
 no particular evidence— in fact, by no cvl- 
 doiice— and a stateuinit made by any other 
 newspaper correspondent, and backed by no 
 evidence. After the letter, of Miss S'law ap- 
 peared, the miners' complaint, whlcli the 
 hon. member for Pictou read, came out ; and 
 tiicn Instantly, as soo' as anything in the 
 nature of a complaint was made to the Gov- 
 ernment, the Government acted. Mr. Ogiivie 
 was notified to proceed with an Investigation. 
 A commission was issued to him, and he was 
 notified that the most ample notice must be 
 given to everybody. I have read the notice 
 issued by Mr. Ogiivie. inviting the people of 
 Dawson City .ind llie Yukon district to 
 come foi'ward and make any complaints tlie.v 
 had to make. Here is the letter I wrote to 
 Mr. Ogiivie, acompanying the commission, 
 and cont^fnin.g his instructions : 
 
 Ottawa, 10th October, 1898. 
 Dear felr, — You will receive herewith a com- 
 Mission to Investi.gate charges which have been 
 made by a. miners' committee against the admin- 
 istration of Governmental affairs In the Yulton 
 district. This commission has been issued ia 
 (onsequenre of the receipt of a formal com- 
 IJlaint, a "opy of which is attached to the com- 
 
 attempvod to analyse, as well as I could the "''^'^'"d- ^°^ will at once proceed upon receipt 
 
 evidence whi^h the hon member for Pioton °^ ^^^ commission with the investigation, and 
 
 (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) has placed be- f"" ^"f ^"thorized to notify the persom who 
 
 foro the Hon^P Nnw who,. nVfnli, »<-'-, liave signed the petition, wherever possible, of 
 
 n-ide on tbP ^^min^^tT^n ■ '^V*^^''^ ""'^''^ "'« "•"« "'"^ P'«''° ''^'^ "^en the inquiry will be 
 n aae on tne adminlst'-ation— is t'le Govern- I opened. 
 
 merit blamable because It did not «,>,i, sooner, I Your legal adviser, Mr. Clement, will give you 
 or Is the Government blamable for not hav- ' '''"y Professlo.ial assistance that may be required 
 ing taken the proper course to have an in- I'" '^''^ Inv^esticration. You will unr'^rstand tliat 
 quiry made in regard to this matter '' ' '"''^ P''''®°" ^''^ 's charged with malfeasance of 
 
 I affirm, Mr. Speaker— and I think imn ! "I*^? PI "^f*'"^" of any '«'nd against the proper 
 members of tlm HnnL -.^ti i, .♦, ' 'i'l'"ln's"'atloR of the law in any department i! 
 
 tht notnt thnf nnfu ;, J ''^ Z^^^ '""^ ""^ i '^"*'"^''' ^^^"'^ "^° ''"'''"K "' t^e charges, to 
 missVoner Afnlnr will'?'' '■''^'™ °^ .""■' ^O'"- n ". S"""' '''' ^^^ vaHic.u\a.vs of the charge, so 
 missioner. Major Walsh, who was known to ^''at he can prc^pare himself to meet the charge!.' 
 lie on the way, and until something in the '"'' "*' desires. 
 
 nature of a specific statement that v,-o could 
 take hold of was made, it would have been 
 extremely unwise on the part of the Gov- 
 ernment to have attempted to hold an inves- 
 
 .\3 to employment of counsel, I will leave you 
 to exercise your own Judgment, merely renark- 
 Ing that If the persons preferring the charp i do 
 sire to appear by counsel I see no obJe» vicn to 
 such course being followed. In such ca jes, of 
 
 
 ■i 
 
39 
 
 an investigation 
 charge Is an pj. 
 itile thing ; and 
 Olty I'l'tuiises 
 cave been made, 
 ve made them 
 them and will 
 ler and atlompr 
 had a ooiiiinls- 
 feet confido,\ce, 
 to consult blm,' 
 ie anything ia 
 ge, I thinic tbe 
 )vernment was 
 >t liaving iicted 
 
 " Times " came ! 
 ! ought to Lave 
 
 that letter ap- 
 it I do not take 
 
 perhaps have 
 avernment poil- 
 
 the " Times " : 
 tetween a state- 
 d sustained by 
 ict, by no cri- 
 i by any other 
 1 baclied by uo 
 Miss Shavf ap- 
 nt, whlcli the 
 came out ; and 
 aything in the 
 ide to the (4ot- 
 ^d. Mr. Ogilvie 
 a investigation, 
 im, and Le was 
 notice must be 
 •ead the nodce 
 ? the people of 
 con district to 
 omplaints tlie.T 
 ter I verote to 
 10 commission, 
 IS : 
 
 October, 1898. 
 erewith a com- 
 'hich have been 
 linst the adinin- 
 i in the Yulfon 
 been issued In 
 a formal corn- 
 ed to the corn- 
 ed upon receipt 
 'estigatlon, and 
 le person'] who 
 :er possible, ot 
 
 Inquiry will be 
 
 t, will give you 
 lay be required 
 mr'^rstand tliat 
 malfeasance of 
 Inst the proper 
 department is 
 he charges, to 
 the charge, so 
 et the charge !! 
 
 will leave you 
 nerely renark- 
 he oiiarp i <'-; 
 10 obJevMon to 
 such cajes, of 
 
 jurse, any accused persons who desire to appear 
 
 |y , ouQsel will have a similar privilege. 
 
 ;It Is the desire ot the Government that the 
 
 ivestigation should be thorough and complete, 
 
 ad that each and every charge that has been 
 
 iiade In the mine;-s' petition should be thor- 
 
 »ghly Investigated, and that you should make 
 
 definite raport, giving your tlnding< upon the 
 
 vidence submitted In support of each charge, re- 
 
 iirnlng your report along with a copy of the 
 
 Evidence. 
 
 It is absolutely necessary that your report 
 
 Ihould be In my hands befove the meeting of 
 
 parliament, and I shall therefore expect you to 
 
 end it out by special messenger, If necess&ry, 
 
 soon as the Ice Is In condition to permit of 
 
 |ravel southward from Cawson City. 
 
 Phat is the course which the Government 
 
 jok in connection with the investigation. I 
 
 jiiive no report as yet if the lesult. The 
 
 pewspapers contain some reports more or 
 
 Rss reliable, I have a preliminary note from 
 
 [r. Ogilvle, saying that the report would be 
 
 jrwarded in a short time, and tlien I will 
 
 ly It on the Table, and the House will know 
 
 IS roil h ^I'out it as I. 
 
 Now, ""^1. .Hpi^aker, I come to another mat- 
 
 ie^ . I - X shall be within the judgment 
 
 ^t • w^hen I say that the House was 
 
 Uti 'iii'iv pained by the references which 
 
 rei-e made to Major Walsh in the speech of 
 
 le lion, member for Pictou. Whether the 
 
 ^on. member conceived that tnose statements 
 
 fere true or not, the manner in which they 
 
 fere made was certainly most objectionable. 
 
 sent word to Major Waish at once that 
 
 iese statements had bsen made ; T told him 
 
 tiat I thought he ought to come to Ottawa 
 
 id see the official report of the speech made 
 
 the hon. member for Pictou. He came 
 
 (ince, and I gave him the report of the 
 
 Bech. Ue went away and examined it, 
 
 ^d then wrote the following letter :— 
 
 jrhil 
 
 Ottawa, 3rd April, 1899. 
 
 Dear Sir, — I have read Sir Hibbert Tupper's 
 
 nak-ds charges against the 
 
 lU.s in the Yukon district 
 
 .. ;; Commissioner. 
 
 \l i;i\ xses against my ohar- 
 
 • ■ «re concerned, I defy 
 
 fi/- .Ish a single particle 
 
 I ■ ,;y^nrt of any one of 
 
 ; til .)roduce any person 
 
 . «peoch, in wliich he 
 .*dniinistratlou of ^^i 
 e I was Gover ■ 
 So far as the ;i" " 
 iter and adiiv U '■ 
 r Hibbert Tu h- 
 reliable evldtuc 
 em. I further defy 
 
 ho ever saw mo undfe. i' . influence ot liquor, 
 
 ilither in the iTukon or au>wliere else. While In 
 
 the Yukon I abstained from the use ot spirits 
 
 ,nd also tobacco, and my other habits conformed 
 
 every v. ay to this abstemious course. During 
 
 stay in Dawson I lived lii a tent surrounded 
 
 part of tht staff and a large number of 
 
 pers. My time was entirely taken up with 
 
 bile business, either in my office or In my tent. 
 
 9 o'clock '.n the morning I walked to my 
 
 ce, at noon returned to my tent, at 1.30 p.m. 
 
 jJ^fain went tc the ofHce, and at 5 p.m. returned 
 
 j^ 'le tent. ■, \> was my daily routine, so that I 
 
 ^«' ed thro<'; • ar streets of Dawson four times 
 
 ery day, S.'i > pxi'^pted Every day but Sun- 
 
 ,y I coMld b' ■■ , ■. ai).v person who had busl- 
 
 Bess with me, e .^;j,;, ibac, of course, people had 
 
 to take their turn In securing Interviews. Dur- 
 
 fjg my s^ay in Dawson I only left my camp 
 
 fter 6 p.m. three times. While I was In Daw- 
 
 V It was almost continuous daylight, and my 
 
 ■ was under full view of every one. Eyerybody 
 
 could see what was going on. My evenings were 
 generally taken iip with people calling to obtain 
 Information. I defy any one to truthfully say that 
 any improper act ever took place lA my camp. 
 I challenge and defy any person to prove me 
 guilty of any Improper act In either my public or 
 private life during my period ot service In tha 
 Yukon, or of dealing in or having any Jntersst 
 in any mines or Government property of any 
 kind. « 
 
 I engaged with the Government, as you know, 
 to go to tbe Yukoqi for one year only, although 
 my commission did not so state. That was my 
 understanding with you. During that time I 
 accomplished all tht-t I expected and hoped to 
 be able to do. i laboured earnestly and 
 conscientiously to the best of my ability 
 to do my duty to the Government, and 
 returned at the end of the time, bringing nothing 
 except the consciousness ot having done my best 
 to perform a difficult -and trying duty. I close 
 by repeating that I defy Sir Hibbert Tapper, or 
 auybody else, to prove that while I was in the 
 Yukon territory, I was ever under the Influence 
 of Manor or was ever guilty of a single act of 
 Immoiv'Uy. 
 
 ^ have the honour to be, sir. 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 
 J. M. WALSH. 
 
 Sir, the newspapers liave been filled with 
 interviews condemnatory of the Yukon ad- 
 ministration. I am not going to go through 
 and examine them, but I am going to point 
 out one or two things that have happened in 
 that connection which will perhaps indicate 
 to some extent the reason why those inter- 
 views were so plentiful and so lurid in their 
 character. One interview of which the most 
 is made was an interview by Captain. Con- 
 frtantine, who was formerly in comnand of 
 the police in the district under tlie L.te Gov- 
 ernment, and for some time under this Gov- 
 ernment. I think I know Captalu Constan- 
 tino better than any man on the other side. 
 I havj known him for seventeen or eighteen 
 years. Ho is a good offloer. who. I do not 
 think, would do anything contrary to law, 
 and am certain he is a reliable, faithful 
 oti'cer. He came out from the Yukon dis- 
 trict, and an interview witli him was pub- 
 lished of a most violent condemnatory kind 
 with regard to the administration, and much 
 wns made of that Interview. And if it had 
 been a genuine interview, the testimony of 
 Captiiin Constantino would be testimony to 
 \Ahich a great deal of cr?dlt should lie at- 
 tached. But Captain Constantino repudiates 
 the whole in'-erview. I will give you another 
 illustration. T^jiere wer.; two men ii; the 
 city the othe:* day named Deville i^nd 
 Mangold. There iii/,;cared an. interview in a 
 newspaper in which they condemnetl thft 
 administrntion in the Yukon district ; but I 
 have a letter from their solicitor, in whicii 
 they say that they were never Interviewed at 
 all. but that a drunken reporter— a drunken 
 reporter, mark you, Mr. Speaker— followed 
 them on the streets to their solicitor's office 
 and v/as ejected from the office, and then 
 wrote this interview condemning the Govern- 
 ment. This letter is from Mr. Latchford. a re- 
 spected and well known solicitor in this city. 
 
 I nm not going to take up the time of 
 
40 
 
 I 
 
 ii 
 
 the House much longer, but I have one more 
 thing to mention. I have a lot of interviews 
 from different people— not the kind that hail 
 been so largely' circulated by the Opposition 
 press— which explains many things ; but as 
 the members of this House have doubtless 
 read them, there is no use in my wasting 
 your time by bringing befctf.-e you matters 
 that are after all mere matters of opinion. 
 But I am going to read to you from a very 
 important document, an official report which 
 has Just been made by Mr. A. N. C.Treadgoid, 
 M.A., of Oxford University, who was sent 
 out by the " Mining Journal," of London, 
 as its correspondent for the purpose of mak- 
 ing a careful and exhaustive investigation 
 of the district. I saw him when he went out 
 and after he came back. He called at the 
 office in a social way for the purpose of say- 
 ing a few words and offering information as 
 to what was going on there. He Is not an 
 applicant for any concessions from this Gov- 
 ernment, in any shape or form, directly or 
 indirectly. He is not a man with whom any 
 member of tills Government has any con- 
 nection or over whom any member of this 
 Government has any influence ; but he Is a 
 man of first-class character and high scien- 
 tlflc attainments, who was sent out there 
 on account of special qualifications and for 
 tlie purpose of making an Independent re- 
 port to the " Mining Journal," of London. 
 All he says is not favourable to the Govern- 
 meat, but that is the better evidence that his 
 report is honest and not coloured ; and 1 
 think It will perhaps give the House the 
 best Idea of the state of affairs and explain 
 the different things that have happened in 
 that district better than anything that could 
 possibly be read, because the report is ab- 
 solutely reliable. This Is the part of the re- 
 port that refers to the Administration. Mr. 
 Treadgold says : 
 
 This Ic not a political pamphlet, but a 'report 
 of (acts observed during my stay In the Yukon, 
 anif but for the importance to capital and labour 
 of all questions concerning the administration of 
 the Yulcon, I should not dwell on the subject. In 
 general, it is sufficient for miners to know that 
 the Government at Ottawa has shown all willing- 
 ness to learn all it could about the new and fur- 
 ther North-west, that In consequence the admin- 
 istration of the Yukon has steadily improved this 
 summer, In spite of serious necessary dlfflcultles. 
 Any Government which proposed suddenly to 
 Impose upon a new country, peopled by mixed 
 immigrants, a full civil organization v/ould need 
 an impossibly excellent set of officials to steer 
 It through its first year or two. How much more 
 Is this true of a new country like the Klondike, 
 whoso population is split into so many diverse 
 groups with conflicting interests. In one point 
 alone do all men agree in the Klondike— the de- 
 sire to possess one or many of the great prizes 
 there offered to the individual ; and from this 
 desire spring the bitterest differences ; for the 
 great prizes are not for all, and A's gain is B's 
 loss, If he chooses so to regard It, even in claim- 
 hunting. 
 
 I am going to read the whole so that I can- 
 not be accused of leaving out any part be- 
 cause possibly less favourable to the Afl- 
 mlnlstratlon. 
 
 Let ua separate some of the groups and inter- 
 ests in order that what I may call the bases ot 
 argument may be clearer for future discuBaio:? of 
 the Yukon administration. We shall And In 'Jxo 
 Dawson camp tolerably clearly defined — 
 
 1. The old-timers, used in the past to feQ-.ern 
 themselves, largely Americans, Inclined to regard 
 the incoming Canadian civil organization as need- 
 less, yet seldom heard on any sublect save roy- 
 alty ; on that eloquent as oa other " crown re- 
 servations." 
 
 Even among old-timers it was possible to trace 
 a clear division between such as were able or 
 forced to reside in Dawson (mine owners and 
 saloon owners — the same man is often both) and 
 the miners at work on the creeks, '.he latter al- 
 ways suspecting the former of getting official 
 knowledge of new finds earlier than themselves, 
 and ready to make a grievance of a mere sus- 
 picion. 
 
 2. The chechakos or new-comers of this year, 
 all of course chagrined to find that tiie officials 
 a-"! old-timers had not reserved a claim for each 
 \<\-^ 20 000 on the best part of Eldorado or 
 Dv. ' -ut, except for this fact, easy to dis- 
 tlngr — 
 
 (a.) . "Hans, excellent fellows and good 
 
 miners, . A to laws of their own, and not al- 
 ways liking to have to obey the Canadian laws, 
 complaining for some time because " they had 
 not been told that the Klondike was mostly 
 staked out," but after a time settling down to 
 work, pushing further afield and doing well : 
 
 (b.) British Columbians, also accustomed to 
 laws of their own, convinced that the Yukon 
 ought to figure as part of British Columbia, the 
 mining province of the Dominion ; yet I never 
 heard one of them suggest that Yukon claims 
 (250 feet) should be reduced to the length ot 
 British Columbian claims (100 feet) ; 
 
 (c.) Genuine miners, of whatever nationality, In 
 considerable numbers with genuine grievances, 
 partly remediable, partly not ; 
 
 (d.) A crowd of professional men and traders 
 and " superior persons," all wanting claims, and 
 expecting from the officials special facilities for 
 acquiring claims. Some of them had been for- 
 bidden to practise law or medicine without Can- 
 adian diplomas. Many were adepts at "skinning" 
 a new country, and hated to find that concessions 
 from Ottawa barred their way in tneir quest for 
 timber, firewood, hay, and rights of various 
 kinds, as for telephones, ferries, <6-c. 
 
 (e.) Scum of all classes and trades and nations, 
 ready to do or say anything for dollars, and for 
 the privilege to loaf at Dawson, especially dan- 
 gerous to the newspaper correspondent, whom 
 they frequently beguiled with their loud-voiced 
 complaint that there was nothing left for the 
 " free miner," and that the officials kept all for 
 themselves, &c., &o., " that the poor men had 
 r.o chance of getting his letter or his record of 
 a claim," &c., &c. 
 
 A perusal of the above will show how plentiful 
 a crop of grievances could be collc^tod by a cor- 
 respondent with an appetite for the garbage of 
 a mining camp, and without that power of fper- 
 spective which is so necessary and yet so difficult 
 to exercise In hurried letter-writing. I think that 
 every correspondent who wrote upon " Yukon 
 grievances " and " Yukon scandals " would pro- 
 bably write differently if he were asked to write 
 again on the same subject. For it Is beyond 
 question that " grievances " and " scandals " 
 were made on the outside to assume an Import- 
 ance which they never possessed in the Klondike 
 Itself. Tf I review the facts of the situation 
 briefly, it is because I think such a review will 
 be useful for the future ; only time and wise 
 
41 
 
 d'Ollberation are needed utterly to do away with 
 the genuine grievances ot the Klondike. 
 
 These are what he says are genuine griev- 
 ances. 
 
 1. Unequal taxation (the miner pays nearly all 
 the taxes). — He was easiest to tax ; money was 
 wanted ; for the rest of Canada would not conBAot- 
 to the Yukon's BUI, «»~1m- was taxed — ^tUe trader 
 eaoooes tn inios{.$aMS. /.U^ 
 
 ^.ytiJi^'iol'tmtijjtcityot claim records (imay 
 j«lfaiiM^l^ll<i»r^M^ to Me what claims hA^ 
 MSen tvloMadS in tha district, and that with «a 
 little delay' aa possible. 
 
 3. Want of surveyors (the miner has to wait 
 too long to have his claim surveyed — it is ques- 
 tionable whether the miner ought to hav.~) to pay 
 the surveyor his fee, in case of a dispute alxiut 
 boundaries, or whether the recording fee ought 
 not to carry with it the right to an accurate 
 survey free of charge). 
 
 The hon. member for York has a clear opi- 
 nion on that subject. 
 
 4. Certain obvious defects in the mining laws 
 (see under " Mining Laws "). 
 
 All these are matters of policy to be worked 
 up when we hav^ a little better knowledge 
 of the country. 
 
 5. Want of roads (see under " The Law of Re- 
 presentation "). 
 
 6. Want of adequate mail service and service 
 delivery of mail (it is impossible to provide fully 
 for such a vast crowd, but the post office was 
 needlessly slow). 
 
 7. Want of recording officials on every creek 
 (this would keep the crowd scattered and fore- 
 stall the genuine grievance ot the stakers who 
 had to trudge so many miles to Dawson from 
 every part of the Klondike to record claims). 
 
 This is a formidable list of grievances, and it 
 has been duly Insisted upon, and of course ex- 
 aggerated by most critics. A glance at the list 
 reveals the need of time and of a whole army of 
 trained officials, with an unlimited purse, to do 
 away with thi^e grievances. As yet there has 
 been no time, the rush of adventurers to the 
 north passed the calculations ot all those most 
 likely to know ; nobody believed tnat a crowd 
 ot 25,000 would make its way to the Yukon by 
 mid-June of 1898 ; all the season there has been 
 : a steady influx of new officials ; but It would be 
 [idle to suppose that laws or officials can be satis- 
 1 factory ior some time. Canada in general is 
 lo^ly just beginning to mine, and she oenalnly 
 I has no tmlned body of mining officials from 
 ; which she could have sent a complete and effl- 
 IcientstafC to.egulatein one season a huge placer 
 " mining camp like the Klondike. It is the rapid 
 [growth of the camp (from upwards of 5,000 souls 
 [in 1S97 to upwards of 30,000 in 1898) that passes 
 |belief and creates suddenly a volume of business 
 jln Dawson City hard f "^r any officials to cope with, 
 Bpeoially for such as have to learn their busi- 
 ness, to some extent as they go on. Canada as 
 fet has no separate department of mines. She 
 deeds a department of mines, in close touch with 
 the Geological Survey Department. The weak 
 spot In the early history of the Klondike is the 
 want at Ottawa of accurate information derived 
 from competent j-'""logi8ts ; but I ought, at the 
 same time, to add that Dawson camp is not yet 
 jtwo years old to the outside world. Failing in 
 Imccurate knowledge of the richness of the Klon- 
 tdlke deposits, all Government action at Ottawa 
 Ihas been speculative and hampered with the fear 
 •that other provinces of Canada might be com- 
 Hon O &-4 
 
 pelled to and might not care to pay the bill 
 for the development of the Yukon. This season 
 two of the best Canadian geologists were sent 
 to inspect the Klondike, and their reports will 
 furnish new and reliable data for future action 
 of the Government. In the above list of Yukon 
 grievances, two stand out, pot as being more 
 important than the rest, "but a* being easier t* 
 remedy quickly. 
 
 ' t. Difficulty of rpconlUic cVUoi* aud of gettlig 
 ?'^i know what Claims have been recorded. 
 
 2. difficulty connected with the distribution et 
 the mail. 
 
 I just interpolate here that I am satisfied, 
 from my information from Dawson City, that 
 both these diiBculties have now been re- 
 medied and that .there is no grievance in re- 
 gard to either of them. 
 
 These same difficulties must always occur in 
 new placer camps in intensity proportionate t« 
 the size of the camp, but the Dawson authorities 
 showed singular inability to improve the record 
 office and the post office. At best they were botli 
 very slow Indeed, and the miner who consented 
 to accommodate himself to their methods had te 
 put up with great inconvenience and great loss 
 of time. It is not too much to say that the in- 
 efficiency of these two offices was to blamo for 
 the loud talk on the outside as well las in the 
 Klondike about '■ official corruption." 
 
 Now, will the House mark this : 
 
 Such talk is puerile where the character of men 
 like Major Walsh and Mr. Thos. Fawcett is in 
 question. There Is not a man living who dare 
 openly suggest that either of them was corrupt. 
 At the same time, undoubted evils went long un- 
 retorraed at the record office, and the Yukon 
 miner, seeing no sufficient reason for continued 
 inefficiency, began to suspect and even whisper 
 " corruption," which he could never prove, to me 
 at any rate, either in the Klondike or, later on, 
 at Ottawa. Personally I saw but little that can- 
 not very easily be made smooth by a telegraph 
 wire to Ottawa, and a few changes In the mining 
 law ; the telegraph wire will do much more fer 
 the Klondike than will thj incorporation of Daw- 
 son City, good though that also may be in due 
 time. For all business purposes the Yukon re- 
 mains still quite cut off from the central Govi^rm- 
 ment at Ottawa, In harmful isolation so far as 
 movement of capital into it is desirea. The 
 building ot the telegraph line is the first and 
 easiest step by which the Government can foster 
 the mining interests of a country that will amply 
 repay it for all its care. 
 
 That is the best and most Impartial view •f 
 the situation I can give to the House. It is 
 written by a man who knows the ground, 
 who is making a scientiOc report for the 
 " Mining JouraaJ " and making It under this 
 knowledge— and this should be marked— that 
 if in any respect the accuracy of his report 
 can be impeached, his reputation Is gone. 
 Thei-efore, the House may place absolute con- 
 fidence in his statement. It is riot all favour- 
 able, but It shows that exactly what I have 
 said is true. There had been grievances, but 
 ihey could not be avoided or removed earlier, 
 because it was necessary to have skilled men 
 to deal with the matter, and we could not get 
 them at once. We have sent men in there 
 and we are getting things into shape as fatt 
 as we can. . ^ 
 
42 
 
 m 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, I am soiTy I have de- 
 tained the House so long, but I bave a few 
 words to say In conclusion. Let me point out 
 that the work of the Government in connec- 
 tion with the Klondike district commenced 
 la 1897. Practically our work commenced 
 there when our officials got In. The first of 
 them got In about Febmary, 1898. Major 
 Walsh was the only man who had any real 
 authority to do anj thing, and he got In there 
 on the 21st of May last. All that has hap- 
 pened In regard to which there has been unj 
 discussion has practically taken place since 
 the ice went out of the Yukon River last 
 spring, about ten months ago. What have 
 we done in that time ? We have taken 
 over a country flooded by men of the most 
 diverse character from all over the western 
 country and the Pacific slope. It has been 
 said that that country has been a by-word 
 for official corruption. They forget to siiy 
 that country has been a by-word with every 
 man who has ever been in a mining camp 
 for the perfect preservation of law and 
 order under the most trying difficulties. 
 There has been no crime unpunished, there 
 has been no disorder, there has been no riot- 
 ing. A New York lady who had t)een there, 
 calling in my office not long since, told me 
 that she felt safer in her tent on the trail 
 any where in the Yukon than she did In her 
 residence in the city of New York. 
 
 Sir, is that nothing to say on behalf of 
 the men who have done this work ? I 
 think that it is something to the credit of 
 the Dominion of Canada, and to the men 
 who have gone through the arduous labour 
 which they were called upon to do. Our 
 men have gone there, they have struggled 
 hard, they are struggling hard now with 
 the initial difficulties of overcoming all these 
 things which have to be overcome, of learn- 
 ing those mattters which have to be learned 
 and pr^r^erly studied out ia order that they 
 ma^ . • .ble to deal with the peculiar cir- 
 cumstances of a peculiar situation. We 
 have established a government there, we 
 have put a local government in operation, 
 of a bureaucratic character, it is true, but 
 of that character because it is the only 
 kind of government applicable to that coun- 
 try until we know more about it, and the 
 population is more settled. That govern- 
 ment is at work. I have read you a 
 list of the operations of the Oouncll, 
 showing that they are going Into all 
 the details of administration, that they 
 are trying to take care of the peo- 
 ple and meet their wants, and administer 
 the affairs of that district in a business- 
 like and a proper way. The affairs of gov- 
 ernment are on a proper footing. Build- 
 ing accommodation has been found for our 
 
 ' police force. From Lake Bennett to Daw- 
 son City a man can now go over the ice 
 without spending a night out of doors, a 
 great difference between this and last year. 
 When Major WalsU and myself were at 
 ' Lake Bennett there was not a single post 
 I between that point and Dawson City. But 
 ! at present there is a line of posts stretclilng 
 through the whole district, under Canadian 
 and British authority, so that there is no 
 possibility of any man's life or property 
 being in danger. Now, what have we to- 
 day ? We have permanent puMic build- 
 ings that could not have been expected to 
 be put up last year. There is regular trans- 
 portation by which proper materials for 
 buildings can be carried In. We have 
 roads to build, and some stretches have 
 been built already of the most immediate 
 necessity. We could not take an appro- 
 priation last year for the reason that we 
 did not have information which would en- 
 able us to decide where the roads ought to 
 be built If we had had the money last 
 year we would not have spent it, because 
 we did not know exactly where the roads 
 ought to be made, and for fear of wasting 
 the money we should not have undertaken 
 to expend any. We propose to ask Par- 
 liament this year for an appropriation to 
 build a telegraph line ; we propose to ask 
 for an appropriation for a road ; and I be- 
 lieve that seven or eight months from to- 
 day, when next season closes, the Yukon 
 district will be under a regular and proper 
 administration of law such as will satisfy 
 the requirements of the people of the dis- 
 trict, and such as would serve for any pro- 
 vince in the Dominion of Canada. One 
 word more. I ought not to sit down with- 
 out referring to the fact that throughout 
 the sp,;ech of tlie hon. gentleman there has 
 been a continuous trend of suggestions that 
 there was some improper or corrupt connec- 
 tion between myself or sonte member or 
 members of the Government with the Klon- 
 dike district. I want to say that I challenge 
 the hon. gentleman, the leader of the Oppo- 
 sition, I challenge the member;: of his party 
 in this House, I challenge the l^ Jibers of his 
 party outside this House, I challenge the 
 press of his party, to produce their private 
 detectives, to come here upon their respon- 
 sibility and press their charge ; I challenge 
 the member for Pictou or any man in this 
 House, to lay upon the Table of the House 
 the charges that he has to make, and de- 
 clare his ability to substantiate them by evi- 
 dence, and he will get his investigation, and 
 I will be able to convince the hon. gentleman 
 who makes that charge that discretion on 
 his part would have been the better part of 
 valour. 
 
' ' ; : y' 
 
 I 
 
 t