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Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la derniire image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbols ^»> signifie "A SUIVRE", le symboie V signifie "FIN". Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre film6s A des taux de reduction diff6rents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour Atre reproduit en un seul clich6, il est film6 A partir de Tangle sup6rieur gauche, de gauche it droits, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n6cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la m6thode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 •, Vv SPEECH OF HON. CLIFFORD SIFTON ON 11 IK YUKON A I )M 1 X ISTR ATIOX liOUSI': OF CO.MMO^S'S. OTTAWA .iOiii MAltC'II AND iTii Al'KIL, 1809 I OTTAWA (JiiVKii NM Kxr 1' i; I XTiNc p,ri;i:.\u 1899 i ^fpwiprwppwfpipp /■ IZl > ^ K' '.I'j <i^ \v.'- i- •■ .y.v ■r- Hou$e of Commons Bebates^ FOURTH SESSION-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT. SPEECH OF HON. CLIFFORD SIFTON, M.P. ON THE ADDRESS OTTAWA, 30tu MARCH and 4tii APRIL, 1899 Thuksday, 30th March, 1899. The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR (Mr. Sifton). It is manifestly impossible for me to attempt any reply to the lengthy speech of hearsay, mingled wUh Insinuations which the hon. gentleman from Plctoii (Sir Charles Uibbert Tupper) has given ; and it Is necessary, therefore, to content myself to-night with moving the adjournment of tlio debate. However, before doing so I ir.ay malte a remark or two. I understand that my hon. friend from Plctou Is not go- ing to be in the House when it reassembles. I may be permitted to express my regret that after the language that he has used In reference to myself this evening, he is not going to be present when parliamentary rules will permit me to reply to him. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. If the hon. gentleman will postpone his reply, I will be back. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Will the hon. gentleman ' here on Tues- day ? Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. 1 cannot congratulate the hon. gentleman on the nature of the speech that he has made, when he wag aware of the fact that he was not going to be here when a reply couM be made to him. That, however, does not par- ticularly affect the merits of the case, al- ' though it may affect the esteem in which j the hon. gentleman may be held by mem- { bers of the House. I desire, further, to j say, before moving the adjournment of the debate, that very much of what the hon. gentleman has insinuated, if not stated, I know to be false, I know it to be altogether unfounded. Many of the other things, of course, I have no personal knowledge of, though I shall deal with them to some ex* tent when I have an opportunity of doing so. The insinuations which the hon. gen- tleman has interlarded throughout his speech, that there was some personal relation between myself and any Impropriety of any official in the Yukon district, I characterize as absolutely and entirely and altogether un- truthful. I give the hon. gentleman credit for having sense enough to know that they are untrue. I cannot imagine that the hen. gentleman who has been so long in public life, has not sense enough to know that a Minister of the Crown would not be Im- properly connectfid with any Improper act of any officials In that distant country. If such Improper act tLere was. He will And out before he gets through with this trans- action that If he has believed what he has tried to lead this House to believe, and tried to lead this country to believe, If he has entertained that belief, he has been 3 N an extremely silly aad un extremely foolish man. Now, I only want to add this : We all know that the cliartfo? which have been made In regard to the offlclaLs of the Yukon distiiotyiave appertained largely to the oltl- clals of the Gold Commissioner's office and to the Gold Commissioner. We know t}iat the chnr^e lias been that the Gold Commis- sioner and his clerk, to use the language of the hon. gentleman, robbed the people who went into tliat country and attempted to carry on mining operations, that he was dls- lionost, and possibly guilty of malfeasance of otflce— that Is to say, the Gold CommLssloner and his clerk as nobody else could do It be- cause it was mining property with which they liad to deal. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I am not prepared at this late hour to go into ihe subject luily. I desire to call the atten- tion of tile House to this fact, that in the desjiatches which are before us this even- ing in the evening papers we have a tele- grapliic report which comes direct from l>awson City in regard to the operations of the commission which was issued to Mr. Ogilvie for the pui-pose of Investigating these cliarges, and before moving the adjourn- ment, I will take the liberty of reading it. Sir CHARLES HilBBERT TUPPER. Does the telegram come from Dawson di- rt? ct ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. If the hou. gentleman were here on Tuesday, he would l)e still more restless before I get ilTough. I desire to read this report, because It Is evident that it was not the patriotic setitiuients which the hon. gentleman ex pressed before he sat down, that induced him to make this statement immediately befm-e Good Friday, deliberately talking 7 hours so as to prevent a reply being made. A cliild of ten years could see what the hon. gentleman was doing. He desires that his speech shall go to the country without con- tradiction and inat it shall be left uncontra- dif.ted for several days. The best contra- diction that conld be given the wholesale statements of tuo hon. gentleman Is this : We have a telegraphic report. As to whether this is true or not, an authentic report will come along in a short time, and then tho hon. gentleman will know whether It Is true or nut. but I fancy it is. The report Is as follows :— The Hoyal Cnmmisslon of Inquiry opened on Febu'P.iy 22. Ample notice was glv^n, but ouly two sorlea of charKea were preforrod. The flrst was laid by the miners' committee appointed on August 2Ctb. The second, that of mairsiiHiiaoe In ofTce, was laid by the proprietors of the "Nugget" newspaper against Thomas Fawcott. Both rar- tlcs requested p"rml3f!lon to wlthdniw the char- ges on the second c'ay. The alleged reason was that the terms of the commission limited the In- vcBtigatlou to charges concivning acts previous to August 25. The complaint of the prosecutors wae that the Investigation was too narrow on that account. r}i?r were permitted to retire, but not to withdraw the charges. Comralesloner OgllvIe continues the investigation. Mr. Pawcett was cleared completely of (be mal- ffasance charge. No clerk in the Oold Commis- sioner's Office thus far has been Incrlmlnpicd. Oun witnesii testified tbat he was umployed by the Young Conservative Association of Ottawa to gather Information for political purpose?. The commission continues In session. TuEHiMV, 4tii April, 1899. • The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Slftou), (Brandon). It is not very often, Mr. Speaker, that there Is a gen- eral consensus of opinion in Canada upon any one subject ; but I think that prior to the time when the member for Pictou (Sir Charles Uibbert Tupper) made his ad- dress on last Thursday evening, there was a very general consensus of opinion through- out Canada that this debate had outlived Its u.sefulness, and that it was time for the House of Commons to get down to business. But that hon. gentleman contrived to bring a subject into the debate and to deal with it in such a way that the continuance of the debate becomes a parliamentary neces- sity. The debate opened, Mr. Speaker, with a very long and very vigorous speech by the I respected and experienced gentlemm who leads the Opposition, and he was followed by the right hon. Prime Minister in a speech which I think both the right hon. gentleman's friends and his opponents will concede to be a speech which will live in the annals of parliamentary debate. It has been com- plained that the right hon.. gentleman was too severe with the leader of the Opposition ; but. Sir, when it is considered that for the last two years the hon. gentleman who loads the Opposition has been going through the country denouncing the leader of ihe Gov- ernn^ut and bis colleagues and all their ac- tions In the most unmeasured way, and with the utmost freedom of language, I think the time had come for the light hon. leader of the Government to administer a re- buke to the hon. gentleman for the utter- ances which he had been making and whicli were shown to be altogether unfounded. And, Sir, I may say that when the right hon. gentleman was delivering his address, my sympathies were with him, and not with the leader of the Opposition ; but since that time, while the debate has gone on, I must confess that my sympatliles have been with the leader of the Opposition ; because, Mr. Speaker, when it is remembered that that hon. gentleman has served his party well and faithfully for many long years, when it is remembered that whatever faults he may liave had in public life, lack of loyalty or devotion to his party was not one of them, and when it is now seen that the hon. gen- tleman Is castigated in this House by his political opponents, and day after day" goes by, and not one man on the Opposition side of the House, not one of his followers, not The hon. member for York, N.B., (Mr. I'"oster), who sits beside him, will rise in his place to defend him, to say that he was right ■A and that my right hon. friend was wrong, and that days afterwards It la to be left to the hon. geutlomau'a sou to defend hlni, then I pay my sympathies go out to the leader of the Opposition. It had to be left to the hon. gen- tleman's son to come to his rescue, and there- fore I say my sympathy throughout is with, the hon, leader of the Opposition. I would say to hlni, If he will not consider It Impertinent, coming from one so much younger and with 80 much less expeilence, that he has my hearty sympathy and the sympathy of my colleagues and friends on this side In his unfortunate position. 1 might suggest to the loyal party— that la, the parly which has had loyally for Its stock-in-trade for a great many years— that loyalty to their leader would not be altogether out of place, and that they would retain at least some of the esteem of their political opponents and of the people of the country If they pre- Bented, outwardly at least, better Indica- tions of loyalty and harmony In their own ranks. , ,„ , The hon. leader of the Opposition, If 1 may be pardoned for saying a few words on this subject, with the skill which comes from long experience, attempted, and 1 suppose, perhaps, succeeded to some ex- tent, In placing some utterances which I have made upon the tariff In an Incorrect position. I do not wish to Imply that the hon. gentleman In any way misrepresented what I said. In the sense of giving out as my utterances what I did not say ; but with that skill which long parliamentary expe- rience has given him, he adverted to my remarks in such a way that a casual reader would naturally Imagine that I had placed myself In an illogical position. I wish for Just a moment or two to say a few words on that subject. The House will recollect. Sir, that when we brought down our tariff to this House, hon. gentlemen on the front benches of the Opposition denounced It in unmeasured and most vigorous terms. There Is no member of this House who will not remember how my hon. friend from York (Mr. Foster) stood up, and with that dramatic power which he has so success- fully cultivated, held up his hand and call- ed heaven to witness that he stood In this House as the champion of Canadian work- ingmen, who, by this improvident and in- competent Government, were going to be turned out of house and home. That is the position he took. He lectured us for hours upon the utter destruction which this radical and revolutionary tariff was going to bring upon this country ; and there was not one indication In the position he took, at least at that time, that he in any way approved of the tariff we submitted or of the lines of policy which we had indicated. That was the position of these hon. gen- tlemen then. But what is tnelr position now ? Why, Mr. Speaker, the tariff has gone into effect and has been shown to be a great success. And when I stand before this House, I am In the Judgment of every Hon C S-1} man who hears my voice and of the business men of this country, when I say that the sentiment of the people, ihe matured opin- ion of the people. Is that the tariff has been a success. An hon. MEMBER. No. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Slfton). Yes, and these hon. gentlemen have found that out They have found out that their predictions have not been veri- tied. What did they attempt to do when they were in office V For many years, the cry of high protection, extreme protection, more protection and more taxes, whenever anybody was In trouble, was the policy which these hon. gentlemen followed ; but you win remember, Sir, that a few years ago the people began to cry out against that policy. Hon. gentlemen opposite found, when they summoned Parliament together, that they were getting letters from their followers and supporters saying that this policy of protection had gone too far. What was the result ? It was that they were compelled to hold an Inquiry upon the subject of that tariff and did hold a long and careful Inquiry. If I recollect aright, the hon. ex-Controller of Customs (Mr. Wallace) and the late member for Broekvllle (Mr. Wood) were the two gen- tlemen who were sent ai-ound the country to make Inquiries, and when these hon. gen- tlemen came back, the late Government brought down a tariff which, according to the despatches from Ottawa, given out by them was going to be reformed upon lines favourable to the consumer. That was the policy which the hon. member for York (Mr. Foster) was forced to adopt by the attitude of his followers In Parliament and by the Inquiries which the gentlemen associated with him In the Government had made. The hon. member for York (Mr. Foster) came down to Parliament with that policy. He was strong enough with the Government and the House of Commons tc^arry that policy, and I apprehend 'hat he was even strong enough with the Senate to carry It, but he was not strong enough with the manufacturers, and the re- sult was that he was forced in this House to modify It, Item after item, until the mother of that tariff would not have known It at all as It went out of the House. His intentions were good certainly. He intend- ed to revise the tariff upon lines favour- able to the consumer, because that was the sentiment of the country, but ho fotind he could not do it, and he failed to do It ; and Instead of coming down to the House and admitting his failure, he was forced to admit that the tariff he had brcight down contained clerical errors. Explana- tions of that kind. Mr. Speaker, do not de- ceive anybody. We all make mistakes ; we all start out to do things which we find we cannot do as wc Intended, and the hon. gentleman would have earned more the respect of the community If he had 'I Bald that the Government was not In a position to uiako the changes It contem- plated. These hon. jreutlemeu know now that that was the real desire of the people ia 18U4, and they know that when we came Into pownr, without being tied to the chariot wheels of any manufacturers, we did re- vise the tariff on those lines. For that, they denounced this Government In I'arlla- ment. They said that our tariff was not a success ; but It has been a success, as they know. They know that the people have approved of that tariff, and they cannot take issue with us on that giound. What, then, did they do V They turned around and said that we did not change the tariff at all. But did they not know that when we laid it on the Table V 1 said ut Tcrth— and that is what my hon. friend referred to, and what my hon. friend froia Llsgar (Mr. lllch- ardson), whom I do not sec present, found fault with— I said that the tariff as an issue between the tA»o political parties had ar- rived at sucli a stage that it could not be longer considered, and never, in all proba- bility, would be considered an issue in the same sense in which it had been an issue pre- viously ; and I said that because hon. gen- tlemen opposite k'iow that our tariff— a tariff revised upon lines Indicating that raw mater- ials would be made more free, and that the consumer would be considered, but in which the reducrious would be made In a careful and moderate way so as not to destroy any Industry— is in accord with the policy whicli the people have approved of. They dare not go before the people and attack us on that ground. And, therefore, they intend to come here, and they intend to go before the peo- ple of this country to show what ? Why. that they did not know what they were talking about when they denounced us, and that we actually have not changed the tariff at all. Did I mean, Mr. Speaker, that this Gov- ernment had abandoned the traditional pol- icy of th^gJ^iberai party, that we did not intend, &s tne hon. member for East Toron- to (Mr. Robertson) well said, to attack the citadel of protection ? Not at all. I meant that we Intended to carry out the policy which we have laid before the people, and which, so far as we have gone, we have car- ried out carefully, consistently and as thoroughly ns It was possible to do, In ac- cordance with the well-understood wishes of the people of Canada, as they are un- derstood by the hon. gentlemen sitting there, as well as by the hon. gentlemen sitting here, that the tariff of Canada should be dealt with upon lines more favourable to the consumer, more favourable to the ex- tension of trade, and In the direction of re- moving all unjust restrictions from trade. That is the policy which this Government has laid down by the voice of its responsible Finance Minister. Then, I pointed out also, and I take the liberty of pointing it out again, that there was another point upon which the tariff might be regarded as not being an issue. We Introduced a clause providing for giving a preference to Great Britain. That clause has Icm attacked In a great many ways. My hon. friend from West York (Mr. Wal- lace) attacked it the other day. The hon. gentleman will get his answer In due time from the Government benches : he will get it from the gentleman most competent to deal with the subject, and most familiar with the figures, and that answer, I appre- hend, will be satisfactory to the people of this country and to the followers of the Gov- eruinout. But what I was pointing out was that we had introduced a clause in the tariff providing for preference to Great Britain. That clause has been denounced by hon. gentlemen opposite. Now, are they sincere in that denunciation ? I do not mean to transgress parliamentary rules by attacking the sincerity of any hou. genlieman In this House ; but I think I may attack the sin- cerity of a party as a whole. Is the Conser- vative party at this moment sincere or insin- cere iu attacking and denouncing the prefer- entiiil clause of our tariff? It is an easy matter to settle that. If they were in power to-morrow, would they repeal the preferen- tial clause? That is a simple question. I ap- peal to the sentiment of every man in this House, when I make this statement, that, notwithstanding all the denunciations of the hon. gentlemen opposite, if they were placed tipon the Treasury benches to-morrow with a majority of four to one in this House, they would not, and they could not, repeal that clause. They could not get a House of Com- mons elected in Canada pledged to, or known to be in favour of repealing that clau.ie. Then, I think, Mr. Speaker, if we have bo fully, and so fairly, and so accurately, gauged public opinion upon that important phase of the tariff question as to put upon the .Statute-books a provision that no politi- cal party in this country* would repeal, we may regard that phase of the tariff question as being settled. I thought that I might trespass upon the attention of the House to set myself right, in view of the remarks which the hon. leader of the Opposition made with the very laudable, and, in political warfare, very pro- per, intention of creating dissension in our ranks. My principal occasion for rising to address the House this afternoon is the speech that was made by. the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) on Thursday evening. I need only refer to the fact that that speech was made in such a way -say- ing nothing further about it— as to consume an imnecessary length of time. I do not think that anybody who listened to the hon. gentleman, would have imagined that he was trying to get through what he had to say in the least possible time. The hon. gentleman laid himself open to the suspicion that, knowing, as he did, that the House was going to adjourn at twelve o'clock, and that there were to be four or five days in wbicb there was to be no debate In this House, bis purpose was to prevent any re- ply beihg made on tbis side of tbc House for some days at least. It was known also, tbat be would not be bere to bear the reply. Now, It must be admitted that tht> family to wblcb tbe bon. Kcntlemau belouxs, ban not bad tbe reputation) of lacking (ouraKe, and. possibly, there may be some other ex- planation of tbe bon. K^ntleman's course la taking tbat particular time to mak(> bis ad- dress. He Is not bere, unfortunately. Bui I think I am rl(>;ht in saying, tbat the fact of hia not being bore makes no difference to tbe Government, and that tbe Importance of tbe question demands tbat, wbetlicr be is here or absent, the matter should be dis- cussed, and discussed now. It was well known some time ago, tbat tbe 4ion. gentleman would make an address on this question. It has been whi8i)eretl in the cokTldors, talked about In the liotel ro- tundas, and even hinted iu the newspapers. It was known also, practically known be- yond dispute, that tbe great Conservative party had been employing detectives, send- ing" them up to Dawson City— lawyor-detec- tlves, I believe, two or three of them— to col- lect Information for the purpose, if possible, of damaging this Government in the eyes of the public. And. after all that had been said, and the anticipations that were raised, I, at least, thought tbat the bon. gentleman. If be did not have any evidence, would have 1 something that a lawyer might be excused i for thinking was evidence, or, at least, tak- 1 lu!.' !is evidence. But I venture to say thtt! nobody on either side of the House wivo he.-ird the bon. gentleman'? address would i dignify anything he gave us with the name of evidence. It is the privilege of a member of Pari ament, Sir, to listen to what an iu- ; dividual may say about anybody connected with public affairs. It is his privilege to come into the House of Commons, on a ' proper occjision permitted by parliamentary practice to rise in his place, and to tell tbe House what he has learned, without giving tbe name of the individual who had told him without giving the House an opportimity to judge of tbe credibility of the individual, or what opportunity tbat Individual had bad of knowing what he was talking about. Tbat Is a privilege that is conferred, presumably and I think necessarily, for the public good. But It is a privilege that Is supposed to be exercised by the men upon whom it is con- ferred, with Judgment, and with discretion. and with care, so tbat no man may be un- duly scandalized and no man's reputation may be unduly imperilled by anv anony- : mous accusation. I say nothing further than this, that I will leave It to this House, to the members who heard the address, or who have read— well,, not all that tbe bon. ' gentleman said, for no gentleman in the press gallery, so far as I am aware, was courageous enough, or Indiscreet enough, to take down the language of the bon. gentle- man in everything be said— to the members of tbe House who know what he said, whe- ther the bon. member for Plctou, a gen- tleman who was for years a I'rlvy Coun- cillor, who occupied the exalted position of Minister of .lustlce, has used tbe Mgb priv- ilege conferred upon him, as a member of this House, with Judgment and discretion. Now, Sir. I am not golqg to follow the bun. gentleman In the nafire of the remarks which be has made ; I am not going tu de- i>ouniv, or to Inslnuato, or to do anything of tliat kind ; neither am 1 goiug to attack the bon. gentloman. I am goln^; to recog- nize, as a responsible member of this Gov- ernment, responsible to Her Majesty, respon- sible to my leader, responsible to this House of Commons, to Parliament and to tlie people — I am going to recognize tlie fact that a member of I'arllamcut has made a speech att.ackiug the administration of tbis Government and tbe administration of the department of which i h.ive charge. I am not going to Inquire particularly as to whe- tlior the member of Parliament who did that (lid it in a fair way, a reasonable way. or a decent way ; but I am going to put the Gov- ernment and myself In the judgment of this House and of the people of Canada as to whe- ther we have fairly and honestly discliarged ( ur dutie?. The question is not wlietber the hon. member for Plctou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tapper) has been discreet, or whe- ther he has been justified in doing what he has done ; the question Is whether this Government has properly discharged Its duty. Now, Sir, we are responsible for our mining policy in the Yukon district, we are responsible for our administration of that policy, for our administration of the affairs of that territory. Just here I want to say that I do not propose. In this address, to deal with the question of royalties or tbe ques- tion of tho reservation of claims in coimec- tlon with the mining regulations In that ter- ritory. Those are large and Important ques- tloiis of public policy which may well form themselves the subject of a debate, and upon which the members of this Government will be well prepared to meet our bon. friends at any time when they seek to challenge the Judgment of this House. But there are other matters, details of administration which the bon. member for Plctou has brought before this House, and which now demand the specljil attention of the Government ; but T am not ijoing to devote, on this occasion, any time to the discussion of our policy in relation to those matters which I have re- ferred to. We are responsIl)le for our ad- minlstratlDn, we are responsible for exor- cising reasonable Judgment, reasonable promptnos.s, reasonable diligence, reasonable discretion. In anything and everything that we did. And let me say right here, that I am not going to follow a policy which has been suggested many times In the press of this country within the last two weeks ; in dealing with these matters I am not going to try to Justify this Government by making a compnrUon with the ndtnlnlstration of bou. Kootlonien oppontte ; I am not going to defond niyxelf, or the action of my colleagues In endorHlug wlint I have done, by argu- f>ent8 basod upon rocTlmtnatlon. It 1h per- fectly true thnt If two vices mode a virtue, It would be very easy to do It ; It Ih perfectly true that the hoii. gentleman who made tbl8 attack upon the Ooverninent sat nn a collcngue of a Minister who waH proven to have received large bribes ; It Is piMfectly true that It has been proven that a large Kuui of public money was stolen or lost imder ihe eyes of one of his colli'iigues, an ex- Minister of Railways ; It Is perfectly true. Sir, that H^onduls, gross scandals, disgraced the administration of the western country ; that as peaceable a population as over lived In Canada, upon the banks of the Saskatcbe- wan. were driven Into rebellion by the nial- administration of hon. gentlemen opimslte. That rebellion cost millions of dollars to put down-; 11 cost valuable lives to put down ; and, Sir, It Is true, aitd hon. gentlemen can- not deny It, that the ofllcers that were sent up there looted and stole from the penple whom they were sent up there to protect. It is j)erfectly true that the settlement policy, the general administration of that western country wliere I have lived for the last 20 years, was described, not by a Reform paper. not by a Liberal paper, but by thr leading journal of the Conservative par^y in the city of Winnipeg, the Winnipeg " Times "— was ilcscrlbod in a moment of desperation at the actions of the hon. gentlemen opjio- frite. as erass and Incomprehensible from boiginnlng to end ; and It was stated in that paper, not a Liberal paper, but an organ of tlie hon gentlemen, that as a result of their maladministration the trails from Ma- n'toba to Dakota were beaten bare and brown wit'i the wagon wheels of departing settlers. Sir, that is not my language. It Is the language of the hon. gtmtlemen's orgaa which declared that by their maladministra- tion they hnd driven from the North-west— that great country- the magnificent tide of inimignitlon which was flowing Into it at ;hat time, and which only needed to have been fostered and eared for to have tilled up those western prairies. And that emi- gration never returned, or at least has only begun in a small degree to return since this Government attained to power. Sir, I do not mention lhe.se things for the purpose of Justifying anything that I have done, or anything that my colleagues liave don(;. If we could only ju.stify our admin- istration by a comparison with hon. gentle- men opposite, for my part I would be pre- pared to resign, and I do not think my right hon. friend the leader of the Govern- ment would care to remain In offlce If his Ministers had to defend themselves by com- paring their records with those of hon. gen- tlemen opposite. Now, Sir. I am going to give you as well as I can— and I must apolo- gize for being nocessarlly somewhat tedi- ous— the facts relating to the administration of th'> Yukon district so far aa I am able to place thcni before Tarliament. I am not going to claim that this Government Is per- fect, or that I am perfect. I am not going to ciiiim that I did not forget anything ; that every letter was (L'spatched Just at the mo- ment it would hav«' been well to have des- patclicd It ; that 1 thought of everything that was going to happen and provided against It ; tliat I had the (]uality of omniscience, or I lie ability to see far over the Rocky Mountains from here to Dawson City, to probe the hearts of the men who were sit- ting in otlices there, and lo see, not only what they were doing, but to see their mo- tives and what they were thinking about. I am not going even to say that we did not possll)ly forget some things that might have been provided for— that may be true. But I ai:i going to say that we have exercised care, forethought, diligence, promptness 'and clrciiiuspectlon fmni beginning to end. In every possible respect. This clatemeut I inaivc to the members of this House, and when I Bit down they will be able to judge whether I have proved my case or not. Sir, to begin at the beginning. In Decem- ber, 1890, I took offlce. I did not get settled to work In my department, practically, until 'he oi)enIng days of 1807. Early In that year, my attention was called to the neces- sities of the Yukon district. The YuIjou was an unknown land at that time, nobody knew anything about It— nobody at least, except, perhaps, Mr. Ogilvle and the officers of the Government who were there. N^' attention was called— and I want to get this fairly before the House- to several re- parts or letters which had come to the Sur- veyor General from Mr. Ogilvle. They were not— and I have reasons for calllnj,' the special attention of the House to this fact— they were not the reports that were subse- qu(>utly printed, although the reports that were subsecpiently printed Included them. The bulk of the reports, which hon. gentle- men win remember as having been printed Just after the session of 1897, were not re- ceived until the session got fairly on Into June, to the best of my recollection ; but before that, some letters which I think were printed with those reports had been received. On .'"»th March, 1897, which Would he a couple of nionths after I liad got to work In my ottice, the Surveyor General, Cai)taln Deville. called my atteniion to the fact that Mr. Ogilvle had made a report, and Ihe Surveyor General further called my at- tention to the fact that the Yukon territory had been neglected and had not received the attention that ought to have been given to It. He wrote to me as follows— but, mark you. Mr. Speaker, there was no information In the hands of this Government or In the luuxls of anybody which would Justify the Idea that there was going to be anything like an inrush of population. Though the Idea of people going Into the country was spoken of, it was only spoken of In the sense of a 'i few hundred minors croRslnft the boundnry from AhiHka. The Surveyor Oeneral, on the 6th of March, 1897, a couple of months after I took office, wrote to me a letter. I will call ' your attention to the fact that thin letter was I from an experienced, capable ami reliable officer of the Qoveroment, not appointed by me, but appointed by hou. gentlemen oppo- site, and I am Rlad to say further that the appointment was an excellent one and one which I rcKard as belnR satisfactory In every way ; a better officer I do not believe any Government could have. lie wrote to me on March 5th, 1807, as follows : A perusal of Mr. OKllvle's report leaves the Impreaslon that If prompt steps are not taken for plactiiK tho land and mining busineig of the district under efllclent nmnaReniont, it will soon be In an undesirable condition. Mr. Ogilvle'fi view |g that the surveyor of the district should have charge of the businoss : his arguments ap- pear irrefutable. The present agent That was Capt. Goustantlne. himself admits tlmt he cannot fulfll the du- ties of the office, and asks to be relieved. Should Mr. Ogilvie's view be adopted, no one Is better fitted for the position than Mr. Thomas Fawcett ; he is not only a skilled surveyor and a man of groat tact, Judgment and e.xperlence, but he Is very fortunate in always mnlntr'iinK pleasant relations with evirybody. i i reniDte pla;e like the Yukon district, where much must be left to the agent, suavit- of manner and a concll- Intory spirit are p.iiapa the most ossential qualities. Mr. Thomas Fawcett was employed In a temporary way on Government surveys from 1874 to 1892. The surveyors were nearly all employed lu a temporary way ; tliere are only a few that are permanent offlcors. I say that simply to Indicate that Mr. Fawcett was to all Intents and purposes a Government surveyor, although he had only been In tho employ of the (lovernment from time to time. In 1892 Mr. Fawcett was permanently ap- pointed In the Surveyor General's branch of the department. He had passed the examin- ation necessary to such appointment and the record of his temporary service was good. In consequence of the report of the Surveyor General made to me on 5th of March. 1897, and followed by another letter on 12th April. I caused Mr. Fawcett to be appointed, and ho was sent out in time to get to the Yukon district by the first opening of the water on the Yukon River. There was no delay : he got there Just as soon as It was possible for him to have got there. Now. the members of the House under- stand and know that I hav(> been accused by the Conservative press throughout this country of finding Mr. Ogllvle In charge of the Yukon district and of removing him. Members of the House know, if they have read the Opposition press, that It has been charged that I found Mr. Ogllvle in charge of the Yukon district, he having been ap- pointed by hon. gentlemen opposite and put in charge of that district, and that I removed him. Mr. Ogllvle never was lu charjje of the Yukon district, and under tht: hon. gentle- men opposite be never had anything to do with It. They never recognized Mr. Ogilvlo In connection with the Yukon district. They i>ever paid any attention to him, and they never read his reports. Mr. Ogllvle was sent out there as topographical surveyor In con- nection with the boundary survey and he had no c-onnectlon with the Yukon district. It was only the ability, fairness and dignity of character of Mr. Ogllvle that caused hlin to be recognized by the people there as a man to whoiM they could go and n-fer any causes of dispu >. The other officer In charge of the district was Capt. Constantino, and Capt. Goustantlne asked to be relieved. Hon. gen- tlemen may ask : Why did ycm not appoint Mr. Ogllvle In bis place ? The answer is that Mr. Ogllvle asked to be allowed to couie back on account of Ill-health, and he came back on account of Ill-health. Now, to dis- pose of this charge, which Is one of a num- ber. I have pointed out that ♦' •■ < Is nothing whatevci- In the siory that i •, 'oved Mr. Ogllvle from his position; I h.nj pointed out that he never had the po'lfou in fact, and that he came back at b's own request on account of falling health. hen [ ppolnted as (!old CompiiMsloner a .uirveyor. ^''liy ? Because Mr. Ogllvle. v/ho was coiiipcteut to advise the deiMirtiuent. siiggf^sl"! the ap- pointment of a surveyir ; aiKi bccausi that sugjxestion was strongly suprorted by the Surveyor General wlio advised that Mr. Thomas Fawcett. a surveyor of ills staff!, was the sort of man that was wanted, l call ed upon the Surveyor General of Canada for advice, anrl on the recommendation of the Surveyor General of Canada I had a survey- or of ills own appoUued as (!old ConiniLs- slouer. Now. Mr. Speaker. Iliey say I ma<le minlnj: regul.'itions under wliich ilie records were secret. I say that 1 did nothing of the kind. The Mining regulations In force when Mr. Fawcett went out were the mining regula- tions promulgated by hon. gentlemen oppo- site — without liiange. Who made those regu- lations ? The hon. gentlemen opposite ai"- polnted Mr. Pierce, an experienced surveyor, an able man. as able a man In his own Hue as tliere Is in Cauadii, to prepare a set of mining regulations. Mr. Pierce was appolnt- e<l Superintendent of Mines, and It was under the regulations made by him that Mr. FaAV- cett went to the Yukon district. There were only the slightest changes of form, and nothing as far as administration was concerned. If any change was made It was upon the recommendalon of Mr. Ogllvle In regard to certain matters of detail, so as to adapt these nvculatious to the Yukon dis- trict, because the regulations as originally made were adapted to the requirements and conditions of the North- wost Territories. In regard to the .secrecy of -ecords, whatever the practice was under the late Government, the practice was when Mr. Fawcett went out. Hon. gentlemen will remember that when he It 1 ! left here after the session of 1897, after this House closed, there was no Information In the possession of the House which justlued the Government In assuming that what wai-- said might happen, would in reality hap- pen. Tlicre was some Information In the hands of the House and some In my hands. My hon. friend the leader of the Opposi- tion undertoolc last session to show me that we did not have sufficient information, and he took up Mr. Ogilvle's report, which was In my hands when the House prorogued, saying there was going to be, In all proba- bility, au influx of population into this dis- trict. 1 would point out to the hon. gen- tleman fSir Cliarlea Tupper), that neither he nor anv member of this House can read that report and say that the meaning of it is otlior than simply this : That Mr. Ogilvle thought there would be an influx of a fcnv hiuulred miners from the Alaskan side of the boundary. Well, that did not call for any enormous activity on the part of the Government ; it did not call for anvthing I had not done long before In sending Mr. Fawcett and staff to the Yukon district. But immediately afterwards events begun to tliiclcen, and it became evident that sompthing more had to be done. My rigbt li' '. friend the leader of the Govern- ment Wiis in England, and other members of the Government were away, some of them attending the Queen's Jubilee. Other members of the Government were here. In- cluding the Minister of Trade and Com- merce (Sir Richard Cartwright), who gave the matter careful attention. And I wish to say here, that I have been most indebted to that hoL. gentleman (Sir Richard Cart- wright), in connection with ail mattei's re- lating to the Yukon, with reference to which I wanted to apply for advice to one of more experience than myself. The Minister of Trade and Comnieroe was here, we held various council meetings, and we discussed the matter. In the first place, we ordered up an additional number of Mounted Police. We sent Ihe assistant commissioner of the Mounted Police. We did not want the job for a Grit ; we might have done that ; I am not sure the hon. gentlemen opposite would not have sent one of their political friends had they been in my place ; but we sent the assistant commissioner of the Mounted Police as being the proper man for the purpose, and we sent him upon the re- commendation of the Controller of the Mounted Police. We sent him to Skagway to forward supplies over the pass. Then, as the season proceeded the idea forced it- self upon our minds that there was golm? to be a greater rush of people than we at first anticipated. We held council meet- lags, we discussed the matter fully, nud the .ludgmeut of the members of the Gov- •■rument who were here was that the pro- per course for us to pursue was to appoint wliat might be called an emergency staff of officers, that they might go up there, that they might meet the Immediate re- quirements of the situation In the following summer (that would be last summer), and report to us >7hat was necessary In connec- tion with the permanent organization of the district. That was tiie Judgment of the members of the Government at that time, and we followed that plan. Let me say, Sir, it is easy to be wise ; It is easy to say what you would not have done if you had known beforehand something you did not know— if we knew what the price of wheat was going to be a month from now we might all b.e millionaires— but we do not know, and so we have to depend on our .ludgment as to what Is going to hap- pen. When we held these council meetings we knew hardly anything about the Yukon district except what was contained in Mr. Ogilvie's report. This report gave a lot of general information, but immediately a man begins to administer. Immediately a man l)eglns to decide, he says : What about This, what about that, what about the other thing. We had nobody to tell us, there was not a man In Canada that knew anything about it ; there was not an officer in the Moimied Police who had ever been there. Mr. Ogilvle was at Dawson city under per- mission to come out— either In Dawson City or on his way out— and we did not have any information whatever, except, as I said, what was contained in that report. It was valu- able so far as it went, but there were an enormous number of things that we wanted to know and that we did not know, and that we could not get any Information about. Well, we appointed this staff of officers, and I want to call the attention of the Hous(! to the fact that when we took these steps we were generally commended b.v, not only our friends in the country, and not only our own press, but the press on the other side of politics. Everybody commend- ed the promptness of the steps we had taken to cope with the situation. There were two things to which our attention was i specially directed ; one was the question of j food. Everybody knows here that there I was the most dire alarm as to what was ! going to happen in that district during the i winter. Every one knows that there was ! the greatest apprehension. Why, Sir, I received telegrams from clergymen, tele- \ gra ms and letters from people all over the country, privately urging me to be sure to leave no stone unturned to prevent any- ■ thing in the nature of famine or distress in tliat country. People wrote to me who I had relatives, or thought they had rela- tives in that district, and that was one of tho matters to which the attention of the Government was directed. Again, there was another matter which We li.id ro consider. The population that was going in there was supposed to be a lawless popidatlon. It was known to be composed in the proportion of 91 per cent j of foreigners, largely of Americans from the I Pacific slope, not the class of men who are HK the most readily amenable to tbo law or to the restraints of a regularly organized system of government. American news- papers upon the Pacific coast did not hesi- tate to say that If the Canadian Govern- ment undertook to trifle with these men they would run the Canadians out of the country, they would put up the American flag, and we would never see any part of that country again. Well, these stare- men ts, of course, were not to be taken too seriously, but hon. gentlemen who know something about the temper of tne western miner on the Pacific slope, would do well not to neglect them too much, because things happen sometimes m very short order with gentlemen of that class. We had to consider these things when we ap- pointed our ottleers, and therefore •> ap- pointed oflicers in consideration of :ui the circumstances, and in view of the possibi- lities with which they would have to cope. If there had been no danger of starvation, if there had been no danger of riot. If there had been an express train running a Pull- man car to Dawson City, then I think the chances are that Instead of the gentlemen I sent I would have got some men with other characteristics, with special knowl- edge of keeping mining records, and with special knowledge of mining law. My at- tention would doubtless have been direct- ed to that, and I would have endeavoured to get men whose knowledge was complete on this subject, even if they did not know anything at all about anything else. But. Sir, those were not the men to do the work we had to do In the fall of 1897. Now, who did we appoint ? As the ad- ministrator of that country we appointed Ma.1or .Tamos M. Walsh. .Tame? Morrow Walsh first entered the service of the Gov ernment on the 25th of September, 187a when he was appointed Inspector of the North-we.st Mounted Police. He was pro- moted to be superintendent on the 1st .Tune, 1874— .Superintendent In the Mounted Police Is about the same rank as major hi the mllltla. He served on the march of the police from the Red River to the Rocky Mountains in 1874. and afterwards nt Mc- Leod. Fort Walsh, Wood Mountain and Qu'- Appelle. He retired on the 1st of Sep- tember. 188.3. and was granted a gratuity. He left a record of difficult duty well done. On It being nimoured that ^fajor Walsh was to be appointed tc the Yukon, the " Mall and Kniplre." in an art'de vMi the 10th Augu.st. 1897. said— would hon. gentlemen opposite please take a note )f this— the " Mall and Kmpire " said : It Major WalBh of Brockvllle thoul^ be ap- pointed administrator as It Is rumoured he will be. we may be assured that that capable and ex- perienced officer will show himself I he right man for the position. The Ottawa " Citizen " said— hon. gentle- men opposite will "e I am not quoting from Grit papers— the Ottawa " Citizen " of 1st September. 1897, remarked : American papers are full of the praises of Mr. Ogllvie, the Dominion surveyor In the Yukon dis- trict, and of Major Walsh, who Is to administer the country. These men are signal examples of a levotlon to duty such as Nelson would have :i(l mired, and the English people have always been proud of, but they are not exceptional. Wa have many such men in Canada. Then, I will quote the " Nor'- Wester." which is the Conservative organ In the city of Winnipeg. This Is the newspaper which heems to have regarded it as its special mission to camp on my trail ever since I have been in public life. On the 12th . l August. 1897, it remarked of the appoint- ment of Major Walsh, that " there would be no one disposed to quarrel with It," and characterized Major Walsh as " a man of western experlepce and sound sense.' Therefore, when I appointed Major Walsh I appointed a man certified by the general knowledge of the people of Canada for the magnificent record which he had Is the pub- lic sevvice, and certified specially and par- ticularly by our most rabid political oppon- ents, to be the best man in Canada for the position. Now as to Mr. Wade. It was necessary to have a lawyer to do legal work. It has been complained that Mr. Wade had too many positions. Well, we did not know what work was to be done up there, or how matters were going to develop, and we did not want to send half a dozen men up to do what would be perhaps one man'vS work. It was an emergency staff, appointed, as I have said, foi* the purpose of taking hold of matters as they might develop, and to be supplanted by a permanent staff when the development of the country indicated that such would be required. Now. it has been said that Mr. Wade was a dreadful man. The hon. member for Pictou waxed very eloquent— well, I could not call it elo- quent, but he waxed very luxuriant In his language, to use no stronger term, with re- gard to Mr. Wade. Now. It Is generallij re- garded In law a.s most conclusive when you can pi'ovo your cas<> l>y your opponent's wit- ness. The hon, member for Pictou has a brother whose name Is Mr, William J, Tup- per. He Is. I think, the youngest son of the I'.on. leader of the Opposition, He differs from the hon. leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Pictou in being ac- nualnted with Mr, Wade ; he knows some- thing about him ; he has been acquainted with him for years ; and. If it is any satis- faction to my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition. I have no objection to saying to iilrn thnt Mr. William J. Tupper Is a gen- tleman who Is well respected In Winnipeg, and whose opinion is regarded as being of some vahie. At any rate, my hon. frieid the leader of the Opposition cannot find fault with him. neither can the hon. member for Plctcu, Ills brother. Well, when Mr, Wade was appointed, Mr, Wade was attacked— I .nm not going to say why— by a gentleman In hia own party, I am not going to bring 10 il other nnines Into the discussion, because thnt has nothing to do with what I am dlscnsslnff now. The explanation of the attack was that the dispute was of a per- ponnl character, and what I am now glvluR Is the opinion of Mr. William .T. Tupper of Mr. Wade. In regard to the attack, Mr. Wil- liam J. Tupper wrote a letter to the editor of the " Nor'-Wester," the Conservative organ In the city of Winnipeg, In which he said : It Is nauseating to witness the attempt of the " Tribune " to belittle Mr. Wade's attain- ments. He said that " Mr. Wade had made a repu tatlon as a brilliant editorial writer," and that " his success In his profession "—that Is, the legal profession—" is so well known that it cannot be questioned." I am not quoting this letter verbatim, because there are re- ferences in it to a member of the House which I do not w^ish to bring before the Rouse ; but if any gentlemen wishes to read the whol^ of the letter, it Is on file amonj? the papers. I am giving the effect of the letter in regard to the character and quali- fications of Mr. Wade ; that Is the point 1 am talking about. Mr. William J. Tupper further said ; He has evidently aroused the animosity of one of his party, Komark this in comparison with what Is said by the hon. member for Pictou, who does not know anything about Mr. Wade:— but I believe political opponents will testify that he would scorn to do a mean action, even In the heat of battle. He says further : I believe the almost unanimous opinion In this province Is thp.t Mr. Wade deserves the best con- sideratiun at the hands of his party. Now. that is the gentleman I appointed as the legal olflcer of the' party wlio wont up to take charge of the administration, as 1 hr.ve said, in an emergency way. simply. I liava never heard anybody question Mr, Wade's ability ; so I will not devote any at- tention to tliat, Anotlier gentleman whom I sent with thl» party was Capt. Bliss, Capt. Bliss is one of the horde of political parasites whom, it appears, I turned loose on the country. Cap- tain Bliss was an officer of the Privy Council of some years standing ; I do not know tlif number of years ; I have not taken the trouble to get his record. When my hon. friend the Prime Minister took charge of the Privy Council branch, lie reorganlzel that department, and Captain Bliss's ser- vices were dispensed with. At the strong request of a number of gentlemen, —rgelv Conservatives, in the city of Ottawa, I found a place for Captain Bliss In my depart- ment. He Is a Conservative in politics, and always has bon, .so far as I know. As an Olflcer he had a good record In the Govern- ment service ; he was found in the Govern- ment service when we came here. Captain .Bliss was sent up wljh the party, and with him I sent as assistants two men who were designated as inspectors of mines— James D. McGregor, of Brandon, and Capiain Nor- wood, who comes from somewhere In Nova Scotia. Mr. McGregor I knew myself. He has been denounced In this House In a way 1 need not refer to now. He was appointed on my own judgment, as a man who lived for many years In the same town that I lived in, and he Is a respected citizen of that town, and any person who knew anything about his character and habits of life, would i know that a man like him. who had lived 1 in the western countvy. wno had travelled all over it for many years, who had met all 1 classes of people, and who was a shrewd. 1 cap.nl)le, rvjsolute man. was exactly the kind ; of man to send witli the party to the Yukon. I On tho recommendation of my hon. friend tiie Minister of Militia and Defence (Mr. i Borden). Captain Norwood -vas sent too. He was a man who had been the captain of a northern whaler, had wintered In tho northern portion of the Yukon district, knew considerable about the nature and climate ! of the country, and was familiar with tra- ! veiling In far northern latitudes. These i men were going with the possibility of bav- in;: to incur great hard.shlps and to meetex- 1 ccptlonal difficulties. ! Tlieso two men I have mentioned were ' sent particularly on account of their physi- cal qnalitications, their experience In rougli travelling, and their ability to meet and deal witii nil the difflcultiea they would have to i deal with in the Yukon district. Their par- ; ticular duty was to look after the collection I of royalty, Hon, gentlemen opposite and their friends said that we never could col- j lect thnt royalty. I do not know whether I tlioy said so In Parliament or not, but their organ certainly declared that we could not ; get enough policemen and soldiers In Canad.a to collect tliat royalty. I know that, when , dealing with a rough and ready man, such as a miner, a great deal depends on how he is liandled ; and if you send people to deal I witli such men who do not know how to go ; alwnt the work, you will got into serious : troulde, I, therefore, sent men who had the : nivossary experience and qualifications to deal with this class, and, without a aingle dispute that I have heard of, they did col- lect the royalty provided by law and lodged it in the treasury office. These two gentle- m(>n were Liberals, but I do not think they were any the worse for that. I have given you the certificate of character with regard to Major Walsh's appointment, and a cer- tiflcate from my hon. friend's youngest son with regard to Mr. Wade's character. I have also shown you that Captain Bliss was not an appointee of this Government at all, but a departmental officer, sent on account of two qualiflations. He was familiar with tlie accountant work in my department, and so could keep the accounts, and. In addition to that, he was a military man, and had, therefore, a knowledge of the transportation and handling of men, and would be much 11 more useful, in case of dilSculty, tban would be an oi-dlnary clerk. These were the rea- sons why these men were sent, and I am lu the judgment of the House as to whether they were not good. The others I do not remember, who went up in connection with the party, but they were simply subordi- nates. When the party got to Skagway, it was found that the assistant commissioner of Mounted Police had not got his supplies across. I have been asked, why Major Walsh did not get through by water to Daw- son City. I have just given the reason. If the assistant commissioner of Mounted Po- lice had got his supplies across In time— even in five times as long as it took Major Walsh and myself to put them across wlien wo were there— Major Walsh and his party would have gone on to Dawson City before the water froze. But the assistant commis- sioner had not got his supplies across, and it would have been madness to send this party across the mountains, without any knowledge of where they were going, with- out a proper amount of supplies, and when the information at our disposal was, that the people in Dawson would be starving, and that it would be little less than a crime to send one additional man there without sup- plies for himself. So, regardless of expense, we put tlie supplies across the. p.'iss our- selves, and Major Walsh, Mr. Ogilvle and myself went to explore and get some in- formation, and, as quickly as possible, the other party went across. Tliey started down the river, hut valuable time had been lost, and the result was, that the ten or iifteen days lost in putting the supplies across by tht assistant commlssioucr was just the time that prevented the party get- ting into Dawson City before it was frozen in. I am not sure that that was an unmixed evil. On the contrary, I think it was rather providential, because, as a result, Major Walsh sent off Judge Maguire and Mr. Wade and Mr. McGregoi-, and the rest of the party and himself waited for some time whore they wore frozeu* in. on the hanks of tlic river. Major Walsh then heard that a party pui-port- ing to he ;\n American relief expedlllon was coming in, and from what he heard of the dangers and diliicultles regarding encroach- ments upon the botmdary, which he, the chief ofticer of the Government, would liave been held responsible for, he deemed it hla duty to go down to the boundary line to find out what was going on. nnd so he went back to Lake Bennett. From that time to the following spring he devoted himself to getting the supplies down to Lake Lebarge, so that they would get Into Dawson City a considerable time before any supplies could get up by the Lower Yukon, via St. Michael. During that time. Ihey put up" police posts upon the lino of travel, tliey gave supplies and shelter to the people coming out ; and if hon. gentlemen opposite will look back at the press of that day, they will find it was the universal judgment that Major Walsh and his men on that trail saved the lives of hun- dreds of people who were coming in. Then, when the spring came and the water opened at Lake Lebarge, Major Walsh took the supplies down the river, where they had a transport. At an enormous sacrifice of time and labour and money, these supplies were taken to the foot of Lake Labarge and brought to Dawson City in time to prevent any scarcity there, before any supplies could be got up the river for those people who did not have their supplies with them. Up to that time there had not been in ".ny way whatever a suggestion that Major Walsh had not performed his duty as a commissioner of this Government In a man- ner that was altogether above criticism. Let me now describe what happened. Major Walsh got in vhere on the 21st May, 1897. When you are loaliing back at tliese things, it seems a long time. .Judging by the num- ber of editorials and interviews we have had on the Yukon district, it might be fifty years ago since Major Walsh got into Daw- son City, but it was only the 21st of last May he got there. Let us bear that in mind —only about ten months ago. And he got there after a winter of arduous toll, which, in all probability, has seriously Injured his constitution for the rest of his life. I ven- ture to say— and this ought fairly to be taken into consideration, when criticising these men— that there is no one of them who will not bear in his constitution the marks of the hardship of that winter as long as he lives. Wheu I was there meeting prospectors upon the trail, meeting boats containing prospectors passing along the river and along the lake, 1 inquired of the people where they were going, and wliat tliey were going to do. What did they tell me ? That was in the fall of 1897, wiien we went through tiie pass for the purpose of getting some preliminary information, and when our men were taking sui)itlics througli the pass so that Major Walsli and his party could get down the river. We saw those men and talked with a large number of tliem. and they told us that they were not going to Dawson City. In fact, it was almost impos- silde to tlnd a man, in all tliat host of people camped along the trail and getting ready to go down, who said he was going to Dawson. These mcu had the idea at that time that the Dawson district was very limited, that the good chiims near Dawson were all taken ui). and they told us they were going to the Felly, they were going to the White River, they won; goi.ig to the Ilootaliuqua. that they were going anywliere and everywhere except to Dawson. And the result was that Jlr. Ogilvle and I came back fully assured that there was not g<ilng to be any great number oi people at Dawson. And so we came to the conclusior tiiat the proper place for the load of the Government was Fort Selkirk, in the middle of the district, because- X 13 ,; we understood that the people were going to Hpread over the district and very few wero $;oing to Dawson. Mark you, that was not a belief gathered from our Imagination. It w as gathfci-ed by talicing with the men them- selves. What happened ? These men were camped in the passes, and were engaged putting up their shanties along the banlcs of the lakes and rivers, building their boats and getting ready to go down the stream. In the spring they launched their boats ani started. In the meantime, all winter, men had been coming out telling them of the richness of the Dawsou district and assur- ing them that the district was extensive and tliat thero were good claims there to be had. Moreover, these men who were goin:; In found that they could not go off ami prospect In the interior of the country the travelling in which was dreadfully dlfflcult, and that if they left the line of travel they would perish. And so tljey got in their boats, Iwenty-flve or thirty thousand of them, and went down to Dawson City. There were men, practical miners— perhaps a thou- sand or two thousand of them— who went to different parts of the country and spread them.selves over the country prospecting. But the great bulk of the people, certainly not less than thirty tliousand, went down to DawHon City. Major Walsh got there on the 2lst of May. Inside of three weeks after he got there, i-^ere were twenty-five or tlilrty thousand people in Dawson. I want this House, Mr. Speaker, to imagine tbat situation- something more than half the population of the city of Ottawa set down on a strip of ground, a mile and third long by a third of a mile wide, bounded on one side by the mountaius, from which the melt- ing snow trickled down and made a dread- ful mud hole at the bottom, and on the other side, by the river. Imagine, half ihe population of Ottawa dumped in that mud hole within three weeks— no other word can be used th.it will express It, they were sim- ply dumped there. There were not houses to give accommodation to more than one-tenth of thorn. Tlicre was no lumber to build houses with. The ground, after you went down eight or ten Inches or a foot below the surface was frozen solid, and it was practically impossible to make any drains. These people were dumped on that little strip of territory under these conditions. Were they a class of people to be readily ajnenable to reason or likely to listen to advice ? Were they a class of people who would do Just what they were told to do ? I have been told that no sanitary regula- tions were made. Sanitary regulations wer* made. Mr. Wade and the officers of th« Mounted Police did make sanitary regula- tions. They did everything possible, every- thing that human beings could do under the circumstances to make the people obey those sanitary regulations. But imagine tweuty-flve or thirty thou.sand people dumped in a mud hole without anv facility of taking care of them, and you will have some idea of what our little handful of offlcors had to contend with. And this was u condition of affairs that no human being could possibly have foreseen, because these people had told me— scores of them— and had told Mr. Ogllvle also, that they were not going to Dawsou at all. As proof of that, as proof that I am not giving you something that is a mere belief formed after the event, let me point out one thing. I came back to Ottawa and consulted witn Mr. Ogilvle be fore he went to England. We concluded that the most Important thing to do In con- nection with tlie mining regulations was to provide some means whereby miners who were scattered througli the country at con- siderable distances could register their claims. I brought the matter before Council and devised the plan whereby these men could register their claims. It was like this: In the event of tlje claim being more than 100 miles from the recorder's office, and situated where other claims are being located, the free miners, not less than five in number, are author- ized to meet and appoint one of their number a " free miners' recorder," who shall act In that capacity until a mining recorder is appointed by the Gold Commissioner. Then follow the provisions as to the matters of detail. This we did because we were convinced, as I have said, that the great bulk of those people were going to immense distances iid would require some method of this kind in order to enable them to re- cord their claims. The people, as I have said, were camped along the passes and the upper portioQ of the Yukon. These regula- tions were sent out to the police officers who were travelling along these passes, with instructions to communicate the information to the people, that they might be Informed of it before they started prospecting. Novv, what was the next step ? A great many stories have been told as to what was done next. Mr. OgUvie and I had returned together as far as Vancouver, and he came on to Ottawa after I did. Before Mr. OgU- vie went to England I discussed the subject with him, and I informed him that I had it In view to recommend him as administrator of tlie territory, to take office when Major Walsh's term was up. Major Walsh went to the Yukon district under great pressure from myself, I believing that he was the best possible man for the position. He went very unwilllni.rly and with the understanding that I should not ask him, under any circum- stances, to stay longer than a vear. Before he started down to Dawso? City in the spring of 1897, he wrote back to me and said he did not wish to remain in Dawson City any longer than he could help, and that he Mould like his successor to be sent In aa early ns possible. Shortly after getting that, I caliled to ^r. Ogllvle asking him to return as sjon as he could, and he did return as soon as hU arrangements would permit him. When he got to Ottawa his health was not the best, and It was some days before he i.. 13 could do business. As soon as be was in condition to do business. I consulted blm fi,ud went over the situation very carefully with him. Then on the .SOth June— I will ask the House to mark the date, the 30th June, Just 39 days after Major Walsh had got into Dawson City— in pursuance of the understanding with Mr. Ogllvie that he should be appointed administrator in the spring, and in purauance of the understand- ing with Major Walsh that I should appoint bis successor as soon as possible. I submit- ted a recommendation to Council asking that Mr. Ogllvie should be appointed administra- tor of the district. At that time, It Is within the knowledge of the House that no suggestion or complaint In regard to the conduct of Major Walsh had ever been made ; and when I am told that I have been negligent; that I have been care- less, that I did not appoint Mr. Ogilvle for mouths, I think some people have .said, for years, after I should have done it, I say that I appointed Mr. Ogllvie as soon as it was possible to do so, that there was not the least shadow of delay or negligence in con- nection with It. The appointment w^as made just as soon as he came back from Euglnnd, and he had been urged to come back as soon as possible, he came back as soon as his health permitted, he got away as soon as his health permitted, and he was appointed be- fore a shadow of complaint had l)€eu made against Major Walsh or his administration. Mr. Ogllvie was appointed administrator of the district under an Act that was passed last session, providing that there should be a comnilssioner, and a council to assist and advise him in the government of the district. Now, I recommended to my colleagues the appointment of Mr. Ogllvie as commissioner, of Mr. Wade as legal adviser, and of Mr. Glrouard as a member of the council, a gen- tleman who had Ijeen a member of the legis- lative assembly of the province of Quebec, a lawyer of considerable experience, a man of experience in public life, and consequently a most eligible man, so far as I knew, and so far as I believe ut the present time, for the position of a member of the council of tho Yukon District, a man whose experience both as c lawyer and a legislator would be mo«t valuable. I als' ^ocommended Captain Steele. Who is v^ai/tain Steele ? Captain Steele was an officer of the Mounted Police, than whom no better officer ever sat In the saddle, and concerning whom no better cer- tificate of character could be required than the reputation which he enjoys throughout that western country. I must say that every Information I have goes to show that he Is a most valuable and efHclent officer, enjoying the respect and esteem of every one, on account both of his ability and character in the position he has occupied. He was also appointed as a member of the coumjjl, and was appointed as head of the police adminis- tration, that is to say, commandant of police. In addition to these, we appointed a judge of the district. These members compose the council. Now, Sir, in addition to these I ap- pointed, as Inspector of mines, Mr. WllliatD Madden. Mr. Madden was appointed be- cause of his special knowledge of mining. The two inspectors I had sent up before had no special knowledge of mining ; it was not supposed they would require such knowl- edge. The special work they were sent there to do, and which they did, was work which was not supposed to require a special knowledge of mining. But a man of ordinary shrewdness and capacity does not need to be very long in the Yukon district to know ns much about mining as almost anybody else there— I may not be correct in saying as much as anybody else knows, but as much as it is necessary to know of the operations that are being carried on there, beca.ise up to this time the operations are rather crude. But we sent Mr. Madden there, glvhig him tlie important position of inspector of mines, because be hird for some years been the assistant Inspector of mines in the pro-" vince of Nova Scotia, the oldest mining ])ro- vince in the Dominion ; he was recommended to mo for that position on account of his special knowledge, by my hon. "rlciid the Minister of Finance. Then, Sir, I .islced Ihe Minister of Finance to select for me a finan- cial otticcr to act as controller of the finances of the district. I recognized that it would be very absurd for Mr. Ogllvie to be charged with any financial responsibility, or :;ny trouble in taking care of the accounts of the district. I saw that an especially competent officer would be required for that purpose. Now, did I appoint a man to that position who knew nothing about finances ? Not at all. For that position my hon. I'ricnd the Minister of Finance recommended an em- ployee of the late Government. I oppolnted him, not because I did not think iliat a Grit might know just as much about finances as a Conservative, l)ecause 1 think that the financial record of the List two yi-.ira would Indicate that the Grits know more about finances than the Conservatives— 1 ain re- ferring to the cliarge made, that we picked out recklessly political friends of the Gov- ernment for these positions who knew nothing about the work ihey wt-re called upon to discharge— I appointed him solely on the ground of fitness. My hon.' friend the Minister of Finance selected a specially qual- ified officer of his own department, a man who has been In the service of the Govern- ment for a number of years, and who was supposed to be the best man for the purpose, Mr. Thomas Lithgow, an employee of the late Government, and he was appointed as controller of finances. Those were the ap- pointments which we made. Now, Mr. Speaker, when we appointed Mr. Ogilvle, did we appoint the best man for the purpose ? Certainly we did not look for a man amongst those who had not been in the service of the Government. Mr. Wm. Ogilvle was first employed on survey work for the Government in 1875. He continued to be so employed until 1892, when he was placed u ' II upon a regular annual salary of ^1.800. In 1887, lie was placed lu charge of the topo- graphical division and the oxploralory sur- vey of the Yukon district. We can say that lu additlou to Mr. Ogilvie's otlier qualiUca- tious he Is kuown as one of the most com- petent surveyors that lias ever been con- nected with the survey branch of the Domi- nion of Canada, or even of the United States, a man wlio professionally stands very liisl'- i When, last session, I recommended to my ; ooUeMgues to ask Parliament to vote Mr. Ogilvie a gratuity of $5,000 for his disiiii- ' guished services, my hon. friend from llaldl- j nuind (Mr. Montague) said : I do not object to this vote of ^5,000 to Mr. i OgSlvle. I do not fancy there la a man in tills House who will object to It. He has been, It 1 seems, an Incorruptible and valuable public ser- vant, and 1 am sure we will all agree with that i vote. I Now, that was only a few days before his [ appointment. He was recommended on the I 30th of June, and on tlie 4th of July, 1808. i he was appointed by Order in Council Com- 1 mlsslouer of the Yukon territory. Thej Ottawa " Journal " of August, 1897, made this editorial reference to him : While all about him on the Klondike, miners are securing fortunes, Mr. William Ogilvie, the Canadian surveyor whose reports on the district furnish almost the only authentic information concerning the Yuk^n, is quietly preserving or- | der, settling disputes as to claims and bound- i arles, and making himself of inestimable service to the Government of which he Is an employee, and on the salary of a surveyor. He has not located a single claim for himself. That Is in 1897. In the course of an article in the Montreal "Star" of July 'Jud, 1898. we read this : His opportunities to enrich himself were Im- menso, but he availed himself of none of them ; but took his small salary and did his duty, and came back no richer than It he had been keeping guard over an ice field. The same journal, the Montreal " Star "—and the hon. gentlemen opposite will not say that the Montreal " Star " is a friend of ours now, whatever they nii^'Tt have said a while ago — l>ad this to say of Mr, Ogilvie : The country was pleased with the record of William Ogilvie in that district, no matter what his technical duties may have been. Agnin, the "Star" had this to .say of him : " The country was pleased with the record of William Ogilvie in that district, no matter what his tectmical position may have been." And the reference was quoted by the " Mail and Empire " of the 8th of that mouth, ap- provingly. The Montreal " Gazette " of the 8th of July, another Conservative news- paper, said : When a Conservative Ministry sent Mr. Ogll- vlf up, the miners, though he had no authority over them, Because he was not given any authority ; he had no official position of any kind ex- cept to make a survey. respected his dejtslon as to claims, bound- ari'is, and other disputed matters, because he was a Just man who would not use his position as agent of the Qovernment to profit himself by a dollar. Wlieu tt was rumoured that Mr. Ogilvie was to be appointed commissioner, the Mont- real " Gazette " on the 11th of July, 1898, made this reference to him : It is intimated that Mr. William Ogilvie will sojii become the Government's chief commls- sluuer in the Yukon country. It will be a good appointment, and a proper recognition of the services of the man whose work did most to make the Yukon known. It will also put 'in the most responsible position In the country a man whdse character has made him respected by the p( ()!)le he will exercise authority over, and whose presence will be a rebuke to the clalra- frrabblng speculators who have been given too many positions in the gold district. Tlu' party instinct could not refrain from getting In a crack at a Liberal Government, but at the same time. Conservative as this paper is. It admitted that the appointment of Mr. Ogilvie was a good appointment. Tlie Oitawa " Citizen " has an interesting record on the Yukon question, if It could only be examined. It says in an editorial reference on July 1st, 1898 : .Mr. Sifton, be It observed, when he came Into office, found the affairs of the Yukon in charge of Mr. William Ogilvie, Well, I did not ; the only thing about that Is that It Is altogether incorrect. whose administration of the district under most trying circumstances was, to say the least, such as to reflect credit upon Canada. Anything he did he did in spite of the Gov- ernment. Readers of the " Citizen " will remember the splendid tributes to Mr. Ogllv'e's high sense of duty, which were paid him by such anti-Canadian Journals as the New York " Sun." He had the opportunity, had he been so minded, of securing mining claims which would have made him many tlii-.es a millionaire. But he not only refused to profit by the position to the extent of a dollar, l)iit actually declined to accept testimonials which the miners thrust upon him In recognition of his thorough-going Impartiality and devotion to duty. Such is the man whom Mr. Sifton found in office. Such was the man Mr. Sifton did n3t find In office It would have been a small mark of appre- ciation to have conflrmed him In his position. He would have been asked to stay there had he not desired to come ouc on account of his Ill-health. As a matter of fact, it wiis absolutely necessary for him to come out. It would have been but a small mark of appre- ciation to have confirmed hiic in his position, possen. Ing, as he did, the entire confidence and re.'^pect of the mining population ; but such a ccurse did not fall in with Mr. SIfton's plans. I quote that article for the purpose of show- ing that the Ottawa "Citizen," which dls- 15 )lte of the Gov- Q did nst find In plays lu the same article Its opposition to myself, approves of Mr. Ogllvle's appolnt- meiu as the best that could be made. The Montreal "Star" of the 11th of July, 189S, says : The appointment of William Og'lvle to a posi- tion of trust In tbe Yukon district Is a step for which the government will be gladly given credit. I', is difficult to see how they could have made a better choice. But they must be careful not to overpower hlra with colleagues of poli- tical claims, and with men on the make. 1 have giveu you the list of men. William Ogilvle Is trusted because he kept hin hands free of speculation when chance called upon him to play an impartial part upon that northern stage paved with temptation. The Ottawa " Journal," on the 11th of July, 1898, sfaVts out an article by saying : The Dominion Government scores a big point by its nomination of Mr. Ogilvle to the import- ant post of Commissioner of the Yukon terri- tory. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this is the position, so far as the appointment of otticials is con- cerned : First, we appointed Mr. Fawcett. Mr. Fawcett, a surveyor, was appointed be- cause Mr. Ogilvle recommended a surveyor. He was picked out from the surveyors be- cause the Surveyor General said that he was the best surveyor to be had for the post. Major Walsh was sent out because, by the great mass of public opinion in Canada, he V as regarded as the best man for the posi- tion, and our political opponents admitted that. Before a word had been said, before a syllable had been uttared imputing any fail- ure of duty to Major Walsh, and 1 am nor saying that anything has been said which shows that there was any failure of duty on his part, but before an objection was raised, we appointed Mr. Ogilvle. Mr. Ogllvle's appointment is admitted by the dally pape'"s and by our political opponents, to be the best that could have been made. T)ie hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) asks, why did you not ap- point a lawyer as Gold Commissioner ? I did not appoint a lawyer because the man who knew the r.Istrict recommended a surveyor. I appointed the surveyor re- commended as specially fitted for the post by the S:irveyor General of Canada ; and if the appointment of a surveyor did not turn out to ba satisfactory In the light of experience— and that is the only way to con- sider it— if It was a mistake, it must be remembered that It was then more dlfiicult to say that a lawyer was wanted for Gold Commissioner because complications after- wards arose that nobody anticipated, and that have rarely, if ever, arisen in any other mining country, on account of the enormous concourse of people who crowded Into one spot. It was not anticipated that there would be that enormous Inrush of people, or that many of them would act In the dishonest or unscrupulous way In which they did. When Major Walsh came back and discussed the matter with me, and he pointed out to me that It would be well to have a lawyer for Gold Commissioner, I recommended to my colleagues that a law- I yer sliould be appointed. There was no delay about It. We considered the matter with reasonable promptness. I do not sup- pose that the moment that Major Walsh got here I dashed otf to the Prime Minister and said : " Call a Council meeting to ap- point a lawyer." These matters are not ! put through lu that way : they have to be I considered. We offered the appointment to 1 Mr. Gordon Hunter, a gentlemen who prac- '. tlces, I believe. In Victoria, B.C., and we selected Mr. Gordon Hunter for these rea- I sons : I do not think I ever saw Mr. ! Hunter and I do not know him, but i I knew that there had shortly before I been a vacancy on the bench of tho i Supreme Court of British Columbia, and i that Mr. Hunter had l)een strongly recom- mended to the Government by many capa- ble and reliable men as the best man in British Columbia to fill the position of judge of the Supreme Court, and 1 thought that a i man who was tiualified to sit upon the bench of the Supreme Court would make a ' most eligible Gold Commissioner under the ! circumstances existing as they did at that '< time lu Dawson City. Mr. Hunter was j obliged for private reasons to decline the ap- 1 polntment, and I then appointed Mr. Senk- I lor, a barrister of Nelson. I do not per- j sonally know Mr. Senkler, but he was hlgh- ! ly recommended to me. He Is well known I In eastern Canada, and I took care to write privately to leading members of the bar In 'he city of Toronto in whose judgment I have the greatest confidence, as to Mr. Senk- ler's (luallttcatlons. The testimony was uni- versally favourable to him, and as he was strongly recommended in British Columbia, I felt that the appointment was the best that could be made. That may be regard- ed as having settled the question of my discretion and my judgment In appointing Mr. Senkler. That shows, I apprehend, that there was no dereliction or any desire on my part to do anything except to meet the requirements of the district, and that I acted as soon as the Information came so as to enable me to do It. Then, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Wade had come out —we had no advice that he was coming. He came out, largely, on account of Injury to his health on the) trip In the year before, and when he got here, he was under medical ad- vice, and could not go back. Consequently, a legal adviser was required tot the commis- sioner, a gentleman who would give such legal advice as counsel as Mr. Ogilvle would require In connection wit>i the administra- tion of affairs In the district. I cast about for a gentleman to occupy that position, and I recommended to my colleagues the ap- pointment of Mr. W. H. P. Clement, of To- ronto. I do not know a man at the bar of Ontario— and the Ontario bar ranks justly high— I do not know a mani at the bar of Ontario whose appolnrment should be more 16 satisfactory and commeudable than that of Mr. Clement. He was picked out as a man specially qualified for the position. He was a lawyer of first-class standing, a man of unblemished character, a man who had glTen special attention to the study of con- stitutional questions, and consequently, al- though he never was In Parliament, he was a man who had his attention attracted to questions that would naturally arise In con- nection, with the administration of the dis- trict : he l3 the author of a work on the constitution of Canada. Mr. Clement Is a man of recognized standing, recognized abil- ity, and recognized character, and I have never heard any one suggest that Mr. Cle- ment's appointment was not one of the best that could possibly be made. These were the men we appointed In the district. As to the few minor officials we sent up, they were only a few in number, with the exception of the class of labouring men and assistants, who would be hired in this country by the day, and who are only sent out because they are difficult to get there. There is more or less diftlculty about getting for the minor positions men of good standing in the east to go to the Yukon. Men of good standing and assured positions do not care to give up their business con- nections and possibly take the chance of wrecking their lives, unless they happen for some\ reason to be of an adventurous tem- perament, and that would not e a particu- larly good qualification, when we came to select such men. Mr. Speaker, we sent men in there of recognized good character. I have not heard it suggested that a single man we sent to the Yukon, down to the lowest labouring man In connection with any party that went to that district, had a single cloud upon his character be- fore he left this country. Then, Sir, If that be the record, I want tc put the Government In the judgment of the House and the coun- try upon this point. For the last year— per- haps not for the last year, but certainly for the last six months— I have been charged and the Government has been charged, with a grave and serious offence In connection with the appointment of officers In the Yu- kon district. I have been charged with the appointment of a horde of useless political parasites, of debauching and prostituting the public service of this country by the class of men I have appointed, of throwing aside old and tried public servants, andl of putting the public service In that district in the hands of men who had no qualification for the position. Now, I have read you the record of these appointments, and I ask the gentlemen of this House, If It Is not so, that never In the history of Canada has a series of appolnt- n.ents been made with more care, and with more universal approbation as to each ap- pointment that, had been made. Mr. SUTHERLAND. Too many Tories • that Is the only trouble. ' Mr. FOSTER. That sticks In your nostrils. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Slfton). I do not mind being attacked by the press of hon. gentlemen opposite, but it would be desirable that some little faint regnrd for the facts of the case should be observed, when the discussion of these mut- ters Is going on In this House. I have not rushed Into newspaper interviews to deny the statements which I have punctured ouo by one, as I have gone through this state- ment, but I have waited until; I was chal- lenged in the House of Commons to rise In my place and prove that the charges whioli have been made against me, In connection with the administration of my ofilce, tire absolutely without foundation. In dealing with some matters, chronology Is every- thing, because a man may be quite free from blame, if he does a thing In dealing with matters under certain circumstances, when he might be very subject to blame for tak- ing the same action under different circum- stances. A man may be free from blame, if he does a thing on the 1st of the montli, whereas, if he did the same thing on the 15th of the month, he might be subject to serious blame on account of new Informfl- tion being received by him in the meantime. I, therefore, want to direct the careful at- tention of the House to these appo'.ntmonts In connection with the dates. I recorauiend- ed Mr. Ogilvie's appointment on the 80th June. There was no complaint of any kind that I know of against Major Walsh or his administration at that time. I had not the faintest Idea that anybody had an Idea tuat Major Walsh was not doing everything that could be done, and doing it In the best pos- sible way, when I appointed Mr. Ogilvle, and urged Mr. Ogilvle to go forward as soon as It was possible for him to go. It is a large task for a man to undertaite the administration of a district like the Yu- kon. There is no mau in this House of Commons to-day— not even my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition (Sir Charles Tupper)— who has had to organize a new district, organize a government, think of everything that is to be thought of In con- nection with the government, take a new country and a people with nothing dona, and think of everything and provide for every- thing. There is not a man in this House who has ever had to do it before, not one— not even my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition. There never has been a task of that kind before that one man had to take hold of. The North-west Territories had to be administered, but the administra- tion there grew up gradually.. It did not have to be made In a minute ; it grew up slowly ; police were sent out first, and one thing after another was done. Any such avalanche of responsibility as we have had In connection with the Yukon, never was thrust upon a Government in connection with the North- west Territories. Well, I urged Mr. Ogilvle to go quickly. I said there was no complaint I:' 17 I in your nostrils. IB INTERIOU I being attacked len opposite, but some little faint case should be on of these mat- ise. I have not frviews to deny e punctured out; ough this stnte- Qtil, I was chal- imons to rise In B charges whioli e, in connection my office, trre on. In dealliii? ology is every- ! quite free from in dealing with mstances, when I blame for tak- liCferent circujii- •ee from blame, t of the montli, le thing on the it be subject to f new informa- 1 the meantime. the careful at- 9e appo'iotmonts , I recomuiend- nt on the 80tli lint of any kiutl )r Walah or his I had not the ad an idea that everything ihat In the best pos- ed Mr. Ogllvle, 'orward as soon go. m to undertake let like the Yu- this House of my hon. friend m (Sir Charles irganlze a new ment, think of ught of In f on- it, take a new thing dona, and vide for every- in this House if ore, uot one— a leader of the IS been a task le man had to rest Territories the administra- It did not bare rew up slowly ; one thing after h avalanche of 3 in connection thrust upon a nth the North- ?ea Mr. Ogllvle IS no complaint against Major Walsh, and that was true. If I recollect aright, there had at that tluie been an article published, attacking Messrs. Wade and McGregor for having slaked claims In the Yukon district, and I men- tioned this to Mr. Ogilvie. I do uot know exactly the date I mentioned it to liim, but I have a strong recollection that I mention- ed this to him as one of the reasons why he should go quickly, and I told hlui, if any ground existed that no Government official should stake a claim, he might report upon it, and deal with it. I insisted on Mr. Ogll- vle going up there quickly, and I particular- ly mentioned thei 15th of July as the date before which he should go, if possible, There were a great many things to be done, and a great many consultations to be held with the various departments of the Gov- ernment. Mr. Ogllvle would comj and talk to me for a while, ani then he woulil oome down to my house, lale at night, having thought of something that nobody else thought of, and he would take advice ^vlth regard to these things. They could not be put in the shape of official Instructions, l)e- cause if these things were put iu suen shape, and circumstances turned out to be difCerent after Mr. Ogllvle got there, lie would bo bound by his Instructions, and could not act otherwise, and so his information was large- ly taken In the form of consultation with members of the Governraeat. At all events, he did not get away until the 4th of August. Before the 4th of August I had jionei west- ward, and was taking a holiday at l{at Port- age. On his way west, Mr.. Ogilvie stayed a day or tAvo with me, to go carefully over everything again and to have the last word as to his administrative duties. In the meantime, newspaper articles began to ap- l)ear, and I said to him : " Now, Mr. Ogil- vie the Government reposes complete oon- lUlence in you ; we look to you to look luto those things ; I do not give you a com- mission of investigation, but I expect you to put that service on an effective footing; 1 expect you to do everything that the honour of the Government of Canada requires in that district, "ud to do It as soon as possible." That yvsfi in conversation at Itat Portage while M» Ogilvie was on his way. Then, after he left, while he was on his way to Vancouver, or after he got there, and before he left for the north, thinking these matters over and feeling the respouslbllity of the whole situation. I feared that he miglit hesi- tate, as an officer of the Government, to as- [ fiume the necessary responsibility ; for we tall know that an officer of the Government lis not like a Minister, who is prepared to [meet Parliament and justify his conduct |after having done the best he could, but Is if raid to take responsibility upon himself. ^Therefore, I sent a telegram to Mr. Ogilvie, either from Rat Portage or Vancouver, and I R^ant my action in regard to him marked, as nhown by my disposition and desire to send ^his telegram to him at that time. No spe- Hon C S-2 cific charge had been made against any officer of the Government ; there was no- thing but these newspaper statements that matters were not in a desirable condition, and I sent to Mr. Ogilvie a telegram— and fruch authority was never given to any offi- cer in Canada before, in these words : You have an absolutely free hand In regard to the offlclals. Do what la neceaaary to put the service on an effective footing. What more could I do ? What more could the Government of this country do than we have done ? Mr. I'KIOR. What is the date of that ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I have not got the date, but I will look it up and give it to the House. According to my recollection, it was sent after Mr. Ogilvlu left my house at Itat Portage, and befoni he left Vancouver, and I have his ackuow- ledgment, since he went to Dawson City, "of the receipt of this message. In making the ropy of the telegram, the date has been in- advertently left off. Now, Mr. Speaker, it has been alleged that there wer3 Iriegularlties in the post office in Dawson City. It has been alleged that tlie constables of the Mounted Police— uot the commissioned officers— I do not think that has ever been alleged— that the con- stables who were in charge of the post office at Dawson City took bribes for the delivery of mail matter outside of regular 1 urs. I do not remember whetlier Major Walsh said anything specltically about that in his offi- cial report or not. I do remember that I dis- cussed the matter with him when he came back, that he said he had called In the offi- cers in charge of the post ollice, that they had tried in every possible way, by the employment of detectives and otherwise, to ascertain if there was any ground at all for this charge ; that although it was rumoured quite commonly that that practice was going on, yet they were utterly unable to fasten it upon anybody ; that they had changed the constables in charge, thinking that might possibly have the effect of doing away with the idea, If it was only an idea, or dolus away witli the practice, If it was a practice. Major Walsh, as soon as he got back, recom- mended in his official report, that the pos* office should be taken out of the control of the Mounted Police, thlnlcing they were not adapted to that kind of work ; and Jlr. Ogllvle, taking the same view as that which M.ajor Walsh iiad arrived at from his experi- ence, has carried out that recommendation, as Major Walsh would have done if he had stayed there. Mr. Ogilvie, when he went back, did take the post office out of the hands of the police, and, so far as I know, no irregularities are charged as having taken place since. Subsequently, the po.stmaster appointed by my hon. friend the Postmastei* General arrived ; and, so far as my Informa- tion is concerned— and I have not heard any •^ IS allegation to the contrary— the service In , connection with the delivery of malls at Dawson City Is perfectly satisfactory. Now, Mr. Speaker, who was In charge of the post oinoc ? I do not suppose that upon any one point In connection with tlie admin- iHt'ratlon of the Yukon, this (Jovernment ha» been belnbourod, and I have been belaboured and vilified, so much as on account of the post oflice and the method with which the post ofllce was luanaKod. The Impression lias bfon convoyed to the people of the coun- try thut I had sent In some more of those political parasites to take charge of the post offlco. and that those people, went up ther>' to enrich tticnisolvos at the expense of the public, were bleeding everyt)ody. Who was In charge of the post ofHce ? Why, Captain Harper, of the Mounted Police, who was appointed by hon. gentlemen opposite, was In cliarge of it all the time ; and he was sent there on the recommendation of Mr. White, the Comptroller of the Mounted Po- lice, as a competent ofllcer— why ? Because Captain Harper's reputation and record in the Mounted Police was without a Haw and Is without a flaw at this moment— because he was a first-class, competent ofllcer. What better could we do tlian put one of the verj best men in the service of the Dominion of Canada in charge of that office ? And if Captain Harper in Dawson City could not find out whether his own men were taking bribes or not, and. If they were, could not stop them, will anybody In the name of commen sense tell me how I could stop them here in Ottawa ? I did not know for months afterwards that the charge was even made ; I never heard of It till months after- wards, and yet I am blamed because the man on the ground could not stop these men from taking bribes. Why, Mr. Speaker, the proposition convicts the men who are criticising the administration of the district, of the absolute lack of the most ordinary common sense. If criticism is applied, it ought to be applied with some degree of Judgment, and then some attention will bo paid to the strictures. In all this, Mr. Speaker, there is a question of responsibility- a question of how far the Minister Is responsible for what his officials do. That is a serious and important question for the House to decide — a question tliat often has to be decided, and a responsible Minister has always to be ready to answer to It at all times and under all circumstan- ces. He Is there to answer or resign. Now. my hon. friend the member for Pictou, on page 775 of " Hansard," defines my respon- sibility as a member of the Government In the following terms :— But I charge more against the Minister of the Interior, the responsibility for all I am going to say ; I do not wish to deal with these under- strappers, I do not wish to deal wlth^the crea- tures of the Minister of the Interior. I have told you who these creatures were. And I venture to say that the expression of opinion given here Is not a proper expression of opinion coming for a Privy Council to apply to these well qualified officers in the public service : I do not wish to deal with these understrappers —I do not wish to deal with the creatures of the Minister of tho Interior. He cannot In fairness ! shelter himself behind their misconduct ; he ; stands primarily charged with all the rascality j and all the nefarious conduct of these men. I Tliat is the statement of ministerial respon- , sii)illty which the ex-Mlnister of Justice and I a privy councillor (Sir Charles Hibbert Tup- ' per) made in this House last Thur8<lay. •' oil that mine enemy would write a book." Tlu' hon. genlleniau spoke on a similar sub- ject before in tills House, time and again, uiiilor other and happier circumstances. On page 3035 of the " Hansard " of 1895, the same hon. gentleman la reported as having said this : Talte the criticism of the hon. member for North York (Mr. Mulock), and the evidence given by tho hon. member for Queen's (Mr. Darles) m regard to these details. What do they relate to 7 .N'uw, will the hon. gentlemen themselves listen to what is admitted, not charged, by unanimous witnesses, but admitted and proven : They relate to frauds, to trickery, to deception, to stuffed pay-lists, to all kinds of false pre- tenses ; and. If the case stood there, that the i Government knowing of that, had done nothing, j the case would be grave Indeed against this or any Government. But what Information, I ask j again, has any hon. gentleman la this House on I which to base a case against the Government ? j Do they pretend that they can make one solitary 1 elector In any part of Canada believe that under j a Liberal Government, or under a Conservative I Government, under the present Government of i thirteen or fifteen men, you could guarantee the I penple of this country against fraud and Iniquity j on the part of men employed by the Government? There Is a lot more of the same kind, but that, I apprehend, Is quite enough. What did the ' hon. gentleman say In another place ? I refer to this because It has a reference to the English Parliament, and It may be perhaps vahifible on that account. The hon. gentle- I man, on page 3038, says : And if the Government were to fall on that i ground, if the Minister were to lose his standing ; cii that ground, what would be the position of j Minister after Minister In the Imperial Govern- 1 nient ? How about the Ministers who are re- sponsible for the construction of ships, that after having been built are almost as speedily con- demned ? How about Ministers responsible for supplying the army with bayonets that will not stand the slightest use ? How about Ministers whose departments have been Investigated time and time again In reference to other matters, and who have sheltered themselves, and shel- ttred themselves properly, behind the advice of experts. I have heard one of the late leaders of this Government state, without quarrel, in this House, and without any difference of opinion being expressed— I refer to the late Sir John Macdonald — that in reference to matters pertain- ing to engineering, he went by the advice of the engineer. 19 jper expression Ivy Council to o'lHcers In the e understrappers creatures ot the DDot In fairness misconduct ; be all the rascality these men. ilaterlal respon- of Justice and ■8 Hll)l»ert Tup- ast Thurs<lay. write .I book." I a similar sul)- iiuo and again, imstancea. On •• of 1895, I be )rled as baving ion. member for be evidence given s (Mr. Da vies) m o they relate to ? aen tbomselves uot cbarged, by admitted and ;ery, to deception, ids ot false pre- 1 there, that the tad done nothing, {| d against this or nformation, I aslc In this House on ;he Government ? make one solitary )elleve that under ?r a Conservative it Government of uld guarantee the ;raud and iniquity ■ the Government? le kind, but that, 1. What did tbe er place ? I refer •eference to tbe may be perhaps rbe hon. gentle- ■e to fail on that I lose his standing )e the position of Imperial Govern- iters who are re- af ships, that after as speedily con- rs responsible for nets that will not w about Ministers Investigated time to other matters, iselves, and shel- ilnd the advice of the late leaders of It quarrel, in this erence of opinion the late Sir John ;o matters pertain- r the advice of the I have shown that I have acted upon the best advice In every appointment I have made, and that every appointment I did make has been approved by the hon. gentle- man's friend, and not merely by my- self. ' And this hon. gentleman, the hon. member for Plctou (Sir Charles lllbbert Tupper) stands up in this House and says that these principles laid down iu this book will apply to and excuse my hon. friend tho ex-Mlnlster of Railways (Mr. Haggart). I am not saying they do not, I am not dis- cussing that at all, but I am pointing out that tho hon. gentleman has declared that they will excuse the ex-Mlnlster of Railways for the fraud, deception and sti-aling that took place In Montreal, two hours' ride l)y an express train from tiie city of Ottawa, but that they did not apply to or excuse me for what happened In a month or six weeks at Dawson City, when no human being could know what was going on there. I have shown why we had Major Walsh as the leading administrator, and Mr. Faw- cett as gold commissioner, the latter a gen- tleman appointed by hon. gentlemen oppo- iBlte and recommended by the Surveyor Gen- ial, and Captain Harper in the post office, did not know a syllable of what was going on, and I have the right to say to this House that these men are responsible for what was done and not myself. I said, wlien I started, that I proposed placing myself lu the Judg- ment, placing the Government in the judg- ment of this House, as to whether there had been the least carelessness or negligence; and leave the case with the House lu complete onfldence as to what its judgment will be. My hon. friend from Pictou IS'iv Charles Ibbert Tupper) strayed Into other fields, and was sorry to find that all through lils speech here ran a vein or a tone of Insinuation, or •yinsr to create the Impression that there as some felony, some wrong-doing, some wickedness on my part or the part of tho Government that would not bear the light of day. When a man has anything to .say about me. I like him to say it out straight, and I ,-lsh to say that whenever I have anything o allege against a political opponent, I will not allege It until I have evidence that con- vinces me, and when I have evidence that convinces me. It will be evidence that ought to convince the House ; and then I will take the responsibility of making a charge as a member of the House. I think I would be ustlfled in not dealing with the hou. gentle- lan's Insinuations, I think I would be justl- ed in throwing them to one side ; but I will ot do it, but will make use of the knowledge have to enable me to ferret out what the on. gentleman pretends might have been king place, and I will prove that there was ot a solitary word of truth In the suspicion hlch he expressed or In the charges which ; Insinuated. I shall take up the liquor per- it question lu the Yukon. The hon. gentle- an made some statements with regard to hat question. In the first place, he charged " at there had been gross, and he Intimated, Hon C S— 2i Itr iw cori-upt favouritism In connection wltb liquor permits for tlm Yukon district. 1 have said that there was not, and I shall prove there was uot. On page 2434 of last year's " Han- sard " will be found a statement which 1 made to the House at that time of tbe liquor penults which had been Issued up to that time. It will be found, on examination of " Hansard," last year in other places which I need not refer to, that the question came up in this House and was brletly discussed, and I then explained the position to the House. It was this : I had l)een Informed that there was a cer- tain practl(;e lu the department, that ap- plications had come In the early part of the year, practically before there was any par- ticular excitement in the Yukon district, and one or two of them, after the excite- ment arose, and I granted a certain num- ber of permits. They were not granted to my political friends particularly. Of the whole lot, covering altogether perhaps 11,- (KX) gallons, there was only one man to whom a permit was granted that I knew at all, a man from the province of Manitoba witli whom I was personally acquainted, and who was a supporter of the Govern- ment. All the rest I knew nothing of, ex- cept that they were recommended by respon- sible people and certified to as proper persons to receive permits. I explained that to tho House. I say there was not the slightest ground for saying that there was any poli- tical favour given whatever. In fact, the return shows that there was no favouritism. On the contrary, those whom I did not know outnumbered those whom I did by ten to one. I saw that applications were com- ing In rapidly, and that this business had to he stopped altogether, and I stopped It. I said I would not grant any more liquor permits for the Yukon tenitory, and I did uot grant any more. I explained that mat- ter to the House last year, as shown bv the " Hansard." When I say that t did not grant any more permits, I me*... that I did not grant any more for commercial use. The list that was brought down show- ing permits granted prior to the time when, as I said. I decided not to grant any more permits, was placed upon " Hansard " at the page referred to. It shows the permits up to August 30th, 1897. It also shows one permit for fifteen gallons of liquor for per- sonal use, given to a man named James H. Brown on the application or recommendation of the hon. member for East Slmcoe (Mr. Bennett), a member of the Opposition. I do not mean that as any Imputation upon the hon. gentleman. I do not think there is anything wrong in the hon. gentleman's certifying to a friend of nls as a reputable man who desired a permit for fifteen gallons of liquor for his own personal use, going on that long journey. I gave the permit But this is what I want the House to be seized of : since the 30th August, 1897, the only permits that have been granted by or under my authority in any way, shape r 20 ! ' I !l I sir CHARLES HIBOBRT TUPPBR. Y«l. I will. I have been telling hon. gentlemen bere all this evening, on thoae Yukon cbargea, tb» nuFon why aome of these naniea muat be with- held. Now, Mr. Speaker, there uiny be a ronson why a iiinn who comes from the Yukon Is r.iol ciioiiRh to think that he will dnmiiKo Ills Interest by mnking an honest stateint iit or form, directly or Indirectly, up to the lime when Mr. Oxllvle was appointed com- mlssloneiv-frotn which time he Is held '•'>- sponsible for dealing with the subject, I not even having returns of what be has done- are the following : James H. Brown, fifteen gallons uf whisky for personal use ; Dr. Itlmer, a reputable physician of Aylmer, Que., who went to Dawson City and was allowed to take ttfty galloLs of alcohol as j as to tin; acts of the CJovernment ^ but there part of his stock of druKs ; the c-ierks of ' '"' "~ the Bank of British North America, who were granted a permit for twenty-five gal- lons for the personal use of the members of that staff ; the clerks of the Canadian Bank of Commerce, a similar i)ermit for twenty-five gallons ; T. Trotter, Antlgonlsh. five gallons of llqour for personal use ; total, 105 gallons. That is the Uf-t. Now, I think the House will bear me out that I have answered the accusation of favouritism. The hon. gentleman went on to make the utate- ment that Mr. FOSTER. Will the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him a question ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Certainly. Mr. FOSTER. The hon. gentleman does not wish to leave the House and the country to understand that 105 gallons of liquor is the total quantity for which permits have been issued for the Yukon district between these dates. If the lion, gentleman has not Issued these permits, somebody else has Issued them. I suppose he will Inform the House. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I will give that. I will explain the subject • to th() hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) fully and completely. " Nothing extenuate nor set down aught in malice." My hon. friend the hon. member for rictou said this : Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. If Mr. Woodworth, Instead of attacking the Administra- tion, was In their confidence, was a heeler and a friend, he could do as a heeler and a friend of theirs, was able to do in the city of Victoria, a member of the bar, also, that Is, to charge and col- lect a fee of $500 because he was able, by tele- gram and by a letter, to obtain from the Min- ister of the Interior a permit for his client, to send liquor Into the Yukon. That Is my state- ment. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Will the hen. gentleman telj me who the client was that got the permit ? Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No, I will not. The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR. Will he tell me by whom the permit was got 7 Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No I certainly will not. But I will write to that gen- tloman, who Is a member of the bar, and ask him It I may give his name to the Minister of the Interior and to this House. The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mr. Fielding). Surely the hon. gentleman wili ^ot make a state- ment without giving the name of the lawyer Is (criiiinly no reason why a member of the l>ar of British Columbia, who does busi- nes.i with the Department of the Interior, slioiild be afraid to have his name known in connection with it. The MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES. There Ix no reason In this case. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I may be allowed to state for the information of the hon. gentleman that the statement he has made Is abHiilutely untrue. I do not, of course, charge the hon. member for rietou with insincerity, but, reading this report. It will be evident that the hon. gentleman took the ground that he bad not made a positive statement and that, a posi- tive statement not having been made, I could not deny It, there was nothing to deny. That was practically the position he took. Now, here is what he said. Is this a po.sitive statement or Is It not ? Is it a statement that I could deny If I knew all the facts, or is it not ? If Mr. Woodworth, Instead of attacking the Administration, was in their confidence, was a heeler and a friend, he could do as a heeler and a friend of theirs, also i member of the bar, was able to do In the city of Victoria, that Is, to charc;e and collect a fee of $500 because he wn.? able, by telegram and by a letter, to obtain from the Minister of the Interior a permit for his client, to send liquor Into the Yukon. That Is my statement. He could do what another man did who w;i.s nl)le to get a permit from me— that Is his statoniont. Well, I said then that a raeni- bor of the bar did not get a permit from me. I .said the statement was untrue, and I sav it is untrue now, and I will prove it. Porliaps the hon. gentleman did not intend to say what he did. Perhaps lie' iiitcndel to do what he said after- M'ards he had done, perhaps he Intended to insinuate v, Ithout saying it. but Inadvertent- ly lie said it— there Is no question about that. Now I have read a list of the permits, .ind the qpe.stlon I am going to consider before this House Is whether a member of the bar of the city of Victoria- 1 do not care how much he charged, he may have charged whatever he liked— got a permit from me upon a telegram as stated by the hon. mem- ber for Plotou. I do not know that It would be a crime If he did. If the law gave me authority to give a permit, If it was part of my official duty to decide whether a permit should be given or not, I would decide It ; and if, as a matter of policy I thought It was best to give It, and If I gave It on the soli- 91 I'KR. Yet. I entletnen here charge!, the muit be wlth- be a ronson he Yukon Is win diunnKo »Ht stateiiH nt It ; but there . member of ho (Iocs busl- tlie Interior, name known D FISHBHIES. RIOR. I may matlon of the t be has made hon. member but, reading that the lion. It he had not that, a posl- een made, I s nothing to le position he Bald. Is this not ? Is It if I knew nil attacking the ifldence, was a IS a heeler and ler of the bar, Ictorla, that Ik, 500 because he etter, to obtain r a permit for 3 Yukon. That I did who was e— that Is his that a raeni- rmlt from me. ue. and I say I'lll prove it. an did not Id. Perhaps e said after- le intended to it Inadvertent- uestlon about >f the permits. ; to consider a member of -I do not care have charged •mit from me the hon. mem- that It would law gave me It was part of ;ther a permit uld decide It ; thought It was It on the soli- citation of a member of the bar of British Columbia, I do not know that that would be any dreadful crime. I did give some per- mito, but not Just In that way, and I am prepared to answer for them. I do not know that there would be any crime In do^z^n *v'.:''t the hon. gentleman charged, but what I am i.'*opared to say now In that It Is not so, th.1t k all. Mr. IIAGGAIT. Did not that party get a iMsrmit from yi ur ofHce In any way ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I cannot find out who the party was. Tell me who he was. then I will tell you. Some hon. MEMBERS. Name, name. Mr. UAGG.'VRT. Perhaps I have not fol- lowed the debate very closely. I thought that the name of Mr. Woodworth was men- tioned, and the hon. gentleman denied that he had given him a permit. I may be mis- taken. Did this man Woodworth get a per- mit ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I understand my hon. friend was not here the other evening. The name of Mr. Woodworth came In because he w^s the man who wrote a letter which the hon. member for Pictou was quoting. But Woodworth had nothing to do with the permit, nothing whatever. I gave last year the list of permits which I had granted, and in that list there Is no per- mit that was granted upon a telegram from any lawyer In the city of Victoria, and I have granted no permits since — that is per- mits for commercial use ; so where is the hon. gentleman's statement ? In that list there is a permit that was granted upon a telegram from Victoria, and the telegram is here. But it was not granted upon a tela gram from, a member of the bar or a heeler of the Grit party ; it was on a telegram from the Hon. Jas. H. Turner, leader of the Conservative party In British Columbia. If the hon. gentlemen want to look at It, they can look at It. Some hon. MEMBERS. Read it, read It. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I may say in the first place that I had re- ceived, I think, three applications, one from a man named Chambers, and another from a man named Menzies, the last permit, I think that was granted— the last peii^ilt for liquor for commercial use. First, I received a letter from Chambers, then I got this letter from Mr. Turner, who requested me to give a permit to Sullivan, McLeod and McPhee. I did not know the men, I never saw them. Mr. SUTHERLAND. All Tories. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. : suppose tliey are Tories. In answer to thl» letter I wrote to Mr. Turner and said that I regretted that I could not give the permit, that I was in great doubt about the advisa- bility of granting any more permits, and bad about come to the conclusion that I ^^-ouId not do It I had alto told Chambers that I would not give him a penult. Th»'n I got this telegram from Mr. Turner, dated 21»t of August. 1807 : Have had no reply to my telegram 'i'luuv must bo a mistake of a day or two about the datos of the ls,suo oi the permit. Tliey prob«I)ly ref»T to dates entered upon ihe flies here. Have had no reply to my telegram re permit to Sullivan & Co. It la urgently wanted, as la»t sttaincr sails In few days. Please wire permit to collpctor customs. That would be after my answer to bis letter of the 14tii of .Inly, but before he had re- ceived It. Then he telegraphs later : Win you wire reply to my letter of 20th July 7 J. H. TURNER. In response to either one of these telegrams, whichever I pot the last. I thouglit the mat- ter over, discussed It with my deputy, and solely out of consideration for the request of the Prime .Minister of British Columbia I decided to grant that permit. I said to my deputy : Weil. I have told these other men— I tliink two of them, one certainly— that 1 could "ot give bbn a permit ; now I win liMve to give lilm the permit. If I glvo It to one Hian I must to the other. So I gave permits to both. Then I closed the bill, as I have said, and we have not granted a per- mit since for liquor for commercial use. Now I must say this, that I do not believe there Is a fair-minded man upon either side of the House who will not admit that I am correct In saying that there Is no possible palliation for the unfairness of the hon. mem- ber for Pictou In attacking me about a tele- gram alleged to have been sent, and positi- vely refusing to give me the name of the man that sent it or the name of the mau It referred to. Why, Mr. Speaker, In my de- partment last year, I am told by my deputy, over 175,000 letters and telegrams have come ill and gone out. Would the hon. gentle- man expect me to remember a telegram when he won't give me the name ? Now, I will tell you what I have done. The name not being given, my secretary and my de puty h#e taken the directory of British Columbia, and they have looked up the name of every lawyer In Victoria. They searched the files of the Department of the Interior and they searched my private files. There is not a telegram from a lawyer there in regard to a permit that can be found. That Is conclusive of no- Mr. FOSTER, thing. The MINISTER OF THID INTERIOR. If a telegram has been sent to me by a lawyer In Victoria, and Is not on the file, If I hare •eceived a telegram somewhere else, when I have not lieen In Ottawa, or a telegram which has been lost or mislaid, then I tell the hon. gentleman, that tha man who sent that telegraim got no permit in reply to It. !5!^aHP : I 9.0. I am not responsible for Telesi'.ims being sent ; I am responsible for tlie replies. There was a telegram sent from Victoria, from a lawyer— I would not call liim a heeler, I would net describe liini In that way ; I cannot state what the telegram says, because the Information comes to me In a way that I cannot disclose. If the hon. gen- tleman had given me a name, If he will give it to me now, I will looic ; I will meet him on his ground and prove that he does not know what he is talking about ; but I can only look around and see how the story got around. The law partner of the member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) is the only man that the public or private 'ccords of this Government show has ever teiigraph- ed to a member of this Government from the city of Victoria about a liquor permit. He telegraphed to one of my colleagues. My colleague asked me about it. Well, what I told ray colleague Is best evidenced by the answer that my colleague sent. The answer that my colleague sent was : Saw Minister of Interior. Regret exceedingly In-.posalble to grant permit. It being Six o'clock, the Spealier left the Chair. After Recess. The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR (Mr. Sifton). Mr. Speaker, when the House rose at six o'clock, I was dealing with the charges, or statements, of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tuppor), with regard to the administration of the Yu- kon, and I think I disposed of the allegation of the hon. gentleman about the telegram. I desire now to say, with reference to the statement of the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper), as to a fee of $500 having been paid to a lawyer who was de- scribed as a heeler of the Grit party, that it turns out, according to the b(!St information I can get, after searching the public and pr'vate flies of the members of the Govern- ment, that the reference must have been to the partner of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper). Whatever fee may have been paid to this gintleman Is not my business, and it is not the business of the Government, and it is not part of the i otHcial duty of a Minister of the Crown to ! regulate the fee which may be paid to a i lawyer In Victoria for any business which he may do with the department. What I am relsponsible for is what I do, and if a gentleman telegraphs to ine, I am not re- sponsible for his telegram ; I am respon- sible for the answer ; and I have shown absolutely beyond any doubt, that the state- ment of the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) Is altogether Incorrect. No such permit as that to which he refers was ever obtained. The only application that was made for a permit to which he could possibly refer was made In that way, was made by his own partner, and It was properly re- fused. It surpasses the wit of man tO' un- derstand what the hon. gentleman (Sir Char- les Hibbert Tupper) could have meant by mal<inK such a statement in this House. The hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tui)p(M-) made another statement, which I will repeat to the House, and I will let the House decide between the Minister of the Crown and the leading member of the Oppo- sition who made the statement. The hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) de- liberately stated that I had stopped liquor at the boundary of the Yukon so that liquor that was being taken in by friends of mine might catch up. That was his charge. So I understood It after reading the " Hansard " report, and so I understand It now. I do not tliink there can be the least doubt that what he charged was about what he meant. Sir. I aave already stated what my posi- tion upon the liquor question was. I have stated that there were not any permits I had granted, that there were no friends who got any permits, or who were taking any liquor up there. The statement of the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) is, therefore, without any foun- dation. I will go further, however, and I will make to the House a complete dis- closure of all the knowledge I have with regard to the question, with special reference to tlie question of the hon. member for York, N.B. (Mr. Foster)— who is not now in his place— when he asked me, if 105 gallons for which I gave permits for personal use. and druggist use, and so on, was the only liquor that had gone in. At the end of August, 1S97. as I said to the Hou.se last year, I made up my mind to prevent, if possible, liquor from being sent in, and that matter was l)rought up in the House last session and then discussed. That resolution I ad- ii.n'cd to up to the time when the local coun- cil took charge. Whatever Mr. Ogilvle and his council may have done since, I have no returns from them on the subject ; but I liave no doubt that I will be able to assume tlie responsIbllHy for what he and his coun- cil Iinve done up to this time, and may do in connection with the question. As to that, however, I have no return up to the pre- sent time. It was a matter of discussion In the House last session, that I had had an interview with the members of the North- west Government. The question as to whe- ther they had power to advise the Lieuten- ant-Governor to issue pern.lts came up, and, witiiout attempting to come to any decision upon the legal aspect of the question, or upon the propriety of the Government un- dertaking to interfere and by force of Its authority over the chief executive officer of the North-west Territories or its relation to him. to prevent the Issue of these permits, an understanding was come to. I Interview- ed In the city of Ottawa the two members of the North-west Territories Government, and I stated to the House last year, if I recollect it aright— I have not seen the 28 aa properly re- of man to un- einnn (Sir Char- bave meant by his House, harles Hlbbert ement, which I id I will let the Minister of the )er of the Oppo- lent. The hon. )ert Tupper) de- stopped liquor )n so that liquor friends of mine is charge. So I the " Hansard " I it now. I do least doubt that what he meant, what my posl- lestion was. I were not any t there were no ts, or who were The statement Charles Hibbert hout any foun- , however, and a complete dis- so I have with special reference mber for York, not now in his f 105 gallons for lersonal use. and s the only liquor end of August, use last year. I pent, if possible, and that matter )use last session resolution I ad- m the local couii- Mr. Ogilvie and since, I have uo ( subject ; but I le able to assume he and his coun- ine, and may do tion. As to that. 1 up to tbe pre- • of discussion in at I had had an rs of the North- estion as to whe- vise the Lleuten- its came up, and. e to any decision the question, or Government un- l by force of its cecutlve officer of or Its relation to of these permits, i to. I Interview- the two members rles Government, le last year. If I e not seen the books of reference lately— but my recollec- tion, as I stated to the House last session, was, that I had an iinderstanding with the two members of the North-west Govern- ment, Mr. Ross and Mr. Haultain, that no permits should be issued for liquor for any commercial purpose. There was something said about Issuing permits to persons who might want to go from the Territories to the Yukon district, and merely wanted permits foil taking in liquor for personal use. and I said I had no objection in the world to that, and we parted on that understanding.. I think I stated that understanding to the House ; I certainly stated it to my col- leagues. I went on that understanding, and had not the least idea that the understand- ing was b'eing violated. Now, Sir. I wish to state, with some degree of care, what my position in regard to that matter is, although It is not a question at all that affects my action about giving permits. I was inform- ed, later on, that the North-west Govern- ,ment was issuing permits. I stated to my icolleague who privately informed me of hat fact, that it could not possibly be so, ecause I had a positive understanding with ;hem it should not be done. My colleague aid he knew it was so, and I, tlierefore, ommunicated with one of the members of he North-west Territories Government. I as replied to, to this effect : That, while t was not denied that there had been an nderstanding of the kind, when I parted ith these gentlemen here, yet, practically :his Avas the position taken : That, in view f aH the circumstances, and what had I'auspired since, and tlie delay in getting e Yukon Government Bill through the ouse, they did not conceive that the spirit 'it the understanding required that they ihould abstain from issuing permits, and lonsequently they had g* ne on and issued em. Well, I cannot say that my friends the Government of the North-wost Terri- lories were dishonest in that, but it was cer- :tainly altogether a departure from what I Understood had been agreed to between us. simply state that in order that the House ay know exactly what took plnce. I do ,ot accuse these gentlemen of bad faith : I ave no idea they acted in bad luith ; bur I d a clear understanding in one wny, and ey, while admitting the understanding, nceived they weiv, axcui^ed by what sub- quently took place. In the month of .Tnne, last year, there was great pressure for ^ rmits for liquor, which pressure was re- ^^sted by myself and by the Government h^re ; but I was informed by person i com- liig from the coast, that there was uj doubt 43iati attempts would be made to get liquor Ukto the Yukon, other than the liquor -Mr. DAVIN. Would my hon. friend (Mr. plfton) permit me ? Before the hon. gentle- i||ian goes away from the arrangement made ^3(flth the North-west Government, may I ask Iwm : Does he contend that the North-west afltovernment admitted that the Department of the Interior had any jurisdiction at that lime in regard to permits in the Yulcon ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I have not discussed that at all. Mr. DAVIN. Yes, but it is very Imporlant. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Slfton). If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Davin) wants to bring that question up some other time I ..:!' discuss it. I am now discussing a questlua of fact, and I am not I discussing In any way that legal question. ! I was informed that undoubtedly an at- tempt would be made, to get quantities of liquor Into the Yukon district that were not authorized by any legal permit, and, there- fore, I directed that a letter should be writ- ten, and a letter was written— a copy of which I hold in my hand— on the 10th of May, 1898, directed "To the Officer Commanding the Domlnif^n Mounted Po- lice In the White Tass, via Victoria." Tliat was the place througli wliich the il(iuor would go if it went at all. That officer was Major Wood ; and I may say that Major Wood had supervision over not only the White Pass but also tlie Chilkoot Pass, M'liich afforded access to liake Bennett, down which any liquor would go. This let- ter of May 10, was as follows :— Dear Sir, — I beg to advise you that no authority has been given to an otBcer of the Goverument to Issue permits for the importation of liquors Into the Yukon district, and that no statute gov- erning the issue of permits has been passed. That refonod, of course, to tlie fact that the Yukon Bill had not yet got through. The only permits \,-hich have been issued, and which can therefore be honoured, are those named in the Inclosed list. I desire, therefore, to Instruct you that with tlie exception referred to the law prohibiting the Importation or sale of liquor in the district of the Yukon must be absolutely and strictly enforced. That was strictly in accordance with tlio position I had taken in the House, and at- tached to that letter was the list of permits which I had presented to the House during tie session. I think the date of jiresentation was later than tlie date of this letter. In addition to the permits mentioned in this list, some permits appeared which had been granted by tiie Lieutenant-Governor of the North-west Territories, and of Avhicli I had been advised. So tliat this li.st comprised at that date all the pcrmit.s I had any know- ledge of having been granted, and this list was placed officially in the hands of that officer, so that he might not be imposed upon by any forged permits being taken in. Then I was Informed, as I have said, that other permits were being issued by the North- west Government, directly contrary to ray wishes and to the well known w'shes of the Government here. That is not said, however, with a view of suggesting that tlie members of the North-west (Government, in the exer- cise of their constitutional functions, are in any way bound to consider the wishes of the I I !| !. 1! 24 Government here. I simply say as a matter of fact that It was done contrary to our wishes. I ascertained that the permits were being Issued, and I had the North-west Gov- ernment communicated with, and a list of the permits that had been Issued by them 'vas sent down to the Government here. Upon that I referred to the Minister of Jus- tice the question whether these permits were good and were In force, In view of the posi- tion of affairs at that time. The Minister of Justice advised me, In the first place, that the permits were good. He also advised me, by another letter, that he was of opinion that we had power to cancel the permits If we saw fit to do so. I concluded at once that It would not be a fair or an honest thing to cancel the permits, because the people who liad got them had gone to the North- west Government, had paid their money, and had invested a large sum of money on a document which was legal at the time ; and I thought It would be a breach of faith on the part of the Government to cancel p''.- mlts obtained under these circumstanuos. Therefore, at my direction, this letter was sent on the 9th of July : With further reference to my letter to you of the 10th May last, in the matter of permits for the Importation of liquor Into the Yulcon district, I desire to inform you that the permits enumerated on the annexed schedule have been Issued by the Government of the North-west Territories, and, It having been decided that these permits should be recognized, you will therefore allow the per- sons mentioned in the said schedule to take in the liquor specified opposite their respective name3. upon the production of the permits un- expired. This letter was sent to Commissioner Walsh and to tli'i North-west Mounted Police oHi- cers commindlug at the following posts :— Stlkin3 River, Chllkat, Chilkoot Pass, White Pass, Lake Bennett, Hootalinqua, Lake Ta- glsh. I did not know where these men would be taking the liquor In, and so far as I could do so I seut the notice, so that they would not be stopped, instead of sending a notice, as the hon. member for Plctou says, so thi'.t they would be stopped. Later on, rn amended list came from the North-west Gove'-ument, and another letter was sent to the officer commanding the North-west Mounted Police, correcting the list, and In- serting the additional permits, which were sent in the amended list. That Is the his- tory of the stopping of liquor at tiio coast ; ond hon. members will see what a ridiculous mare's nest the hon. member for Plctou has fallen into. In the first place, I had not Issued any permits to my friends, conse- quently, there was not any liquor being taken up by them to be stopped. In the second place, the requisite permits were written pursuant to my duty as a member of the Government, to see to the proper adminis- tration of the law in the district. The House win further see, In answer to the suggestion of the hon. member for York, that the liquor that was taken In for which I was respon- sible, If It was all taken In— I fancy It did not all get tliero— amounted to 105 gallons ; md the liquor that flooded the district amounted to something like G0,000 or 85,000 gallons— I have not the total. That liquor was taken in In direct opposition to my wishes and without any power on my part to prevent it, under permit of the North-west Government. On the subject of telegrams, to revert to that Interesting subject. If the hon. member for Pictou was not referring to the Prime Minister of British Columbia or to his part- ner, perhaps he was referring to Mr. Archer Martin, now Mr. Justice Martin. Mr Archer Martin, then a Liberal lawyer In Victoria, telegraphed to me on the 8th of July : Pither & Lelser, leading firm liquor merchants here, were granted permit from Reglna, May 21st, to import 2,000 gallons into Yukon, and forward- ed goods charge responsible employee. Messenger just arrived from north that goods stopped by Major Steele at Lake Bennett under your instruc- tions of May 10th and June 3rd, presumably be- cause of conflict between Governments. It was not in consequence of any conflict between Governments, because the first let- ter \\as written when we had not any In- lorm.ation. The letter was written glvina; the information, and adding to the list as soon as we got the information. Public here understood this matter had been amicably arranged, and that Reglna permits now I recognized by you. Parties interested very re- sponsible merchants and good standing. Stop- I page working great hardship and heavy loss. I Would respectfully urge you wl'-- immediate in- I structions Steele my care allow- ; permit recog- , nition, so that messenger return by steamer sail- ing probably to-morrow, and party proceed with- out further delay and loss, ARCHER MARTIN. I wired this reply : Archer Martin, Victoria, B.C. This telegram will be authority to Major Steele to recognize permit to Pither & Lelser issued by North-west Government to take into Yukon 2,000 gallons of liquor. I hat permit was not Issued by me, but issued against my wishes— Issued by the North-west Government for tlie taking Into I the Yukon of 2,000 gallons of liquor. That, I therefore, is the complete story of the liquor I question. I I am going to refer to one other matter I wliich was not mentioned by my hon. friend in express terms, but there was a vague I statement, an innuendo, in his remarks which ] had reference to that or something similar— I do not know exactly what It was. Before becoming a member of this Government, I practiced law In the town of Brandon. A gentleman there named A. B. Phllp, was a junior partner in my office. This gentle- man, like a great many others, caught the gold fever, the Klondike fever, last year, and went out to the Yukon. Promptly some of the Conservative journals In Can- ada proceeded to say that Mr. Phllp had 25 -I fancy It did to 105 gallons ; ed the district 60,000 or 65,000 al. That liquor position to my iver on my part C the North-west lis, to revert to he hon. member ig to the Prime i or to his part- ig to Mr. Archer tin. Mr Archer yer in Victoria, th of July : liquor merchants Reglna, May 21st, kon, and forward- ployee. Messenger goods stopped by nder your Instruc- d, presumably be- rnments. of any conflict use tlie first let- bad not any in- written givinii g to the list as tiou. matter had been cglna permits now iterested very re- 1 standing. Stop- and heavy loss. vl'"> immediate in- v- _; permit recog- n by steamer sail- arty proceed wlth- ;her martin. Ity to Major Steele • & Leiser Issued I ta'-ce into Yukon led l)y me, but —issued by the ' the taking Into of liquor. That, ory of the liquor ne other matter Y my hon. friend •e was a vague is remarks which aethlng similar— t It was. Before 3 Government, I of Brandon. A B. Phllp, was a 3. This gentle- hers, caught the 'ever, last year, kon. Promptly lournals in Can- Mr. Philp had sone out as my partner— as my partner, lark you, Mr. Speaker— and was speculat- ing on my behalf In Klondike gold mining, this statement had not been made in khe press, I would not have referred to it. wish to say that while I am deaiiug with these innuendos of the hon. member for »lctou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper), that I latly, positively, emphatically, in the most mqualilled manner, contradict nuy such statement. I defy any man living to bring the slightest evidence of the tnith of any juch statement. I dissolved partnership with [r. Philp when I became a member of |the Government, and have had no business connection with him directly or indirectly, in my way, shape or form, since that time. If he went to the Klondike, he went on lis own responsibilty. If he got gold mines ie got them the same as anybody else, and have nothing' whatever to do with that. Che story was circulated at the coast that had given Mr. Philp a liquor permit, and lat he had taken liquor into the Kiondiiie, id v.'ith that charity which covers a multi- ide of sins, tlie story was industriously Irculated that I was his partner in counec- |on Avith the taking of liquor into that coun- Vy. Well, Mr. Speaker, he never had a |quor permit from rae or my department, Ireetly, indirectly, or in any way, shape |ir form, by or under the authority of any lember of this Government. I hold Mr. pilp's written statement— which he Is pre- ired to verify by statutory declaration. Id which will render him liable to an jtdiotmeut for perjury if not true— tliat he fevor took any liquor into the Klondilce in -' iiny way, shape or form. Mr. Phllp came ,i>tO me one day In my office and said that Major Walsh had made an order about re- j^uirlu!? GOO pounds of provisions for each ;|^rsoii going over tlie pass ; that he intended ilib go up to the Yukon on a short visit— that *^ was just goiuj? in and out ; and that he inted me to give him an order authorizing to go in without the 800 pounds of pro- tons. T <jald to Mm : You do not need any Ser, the police will not stop you, you are going as a prospector, and besides the |lce have not the authority to stop you. order is, to all Intents and purposes, an rlsory order. If any one goes In without |t amount of provisions, the police can- prevent him as they have not the legal Ihority to do so. He, however, said he not ■want to have any trouble with the foe and asked me to give him a letter. jilcli I did. I wrote this letter : ^•fhls will introduce Mr. Plillp, who will be pWmltted to enter the Yukon district wltli such SNJVlslons ho may choose to take with h'm, wlth- ©BfTegard to the regulations. When Mr. Philp got to the coast, like the ner of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir rJeg Hlbbert Tupper) and a great many r distinguished gentlemen, he desired tecome interested in the bringing of lor into the Yukon. He telegraphed me. asking me to write him that the letter 1 had given him should include liquor, and his request was promptly declined. I would not refer to this were It not for the evi- dent vein of insinuation about this thing that travelled through the speech of the hon. member for Pictou. It seemed to me to call for an answer. Friends of mine at the coast advised me that this story was going the rounds, and I promptly denied It. I have now shown exactly what the facts are. There Is not a syllable of truth In it. I desire for a moment to advert to th<> charge mac? by the hon. member for Pic- tou that the officials in Dawson had de- camped as soon na they heard that charges were being made against them. Well, Major Walsh came heme in pursuauce of a letter written me that lie Intended to come as soon as he possibly could. Hav- ing done what he thought was necessary on arrival at Dawson, he Intended to come up so as to be sure of not getting caught in there for the winttr, and he came out In pursuance of that letter. Mr. Bliss, the accountant, came out to close up the ac- counts with the department, and Mr. Mc- Gregor came out with despatches contain- ing official Information. Mr. Wade and Mr. NorA>rood came out before either of them knew that any charges had been made against them. They knew nothing of any such charges until they got home. Messrs. Bliss. McGregor, Wade and Norwood are now In Dawson City, and prepared to meet before Mr. Ogllvle, the commissioner, any charges that may be made against them. Now, Mr. Speaker, llie hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) spent some time on the question of the secrecy of the records. He charged tliat under my administration the records of the mining bureau nt Dawson were kept secret. I have adverted to the fact that these records were kept under the f^ame regulations and prerlsoly tlie same tnsitruetlons as those which had been In vogue under the late Government, and that thei'e is no shadow of ground for the suggestion that anything I have said or doue or any autliorlty I had granted was responsible In any way for the mining records being kept secret. The charge Is made that intormatlon cotild not be got out of the office, and that in Bri- tish Columbia Information can be readily got. But in British Columbia upon no occa- sion, if my Information is correct, has there ever been anything like the rush of work and the rush for the registration of claims which there was In Dawson City at the time ander consideration. There can be no difficulty about getting information when you have a large office with six or seven men coming In during the course of the day to get Information, and where the books and everything are In such a shape that the clerk can hand them out upon the counter and stand there while the person seeking Information examines them. There Is no difficulty about that, hut the position In 1 26 the Yukon was altogether dlflferent. From the Ist of May, 1898, to the Slst January, 1S99, there were 10,543 claims registered, or an average of about forty for every work- ing day. Remember that these applica- tions could not be taken by everybody. They had to be taken by the clerk who knew what was going on in the otBce, who was familiar with the work that had been done before, and '/ould not make the mis- take of recording a claim for one man that had already been recorded by another. That was done in some cases by mistake, because mistakes cannot always be avoided. \Vhen a man c.une in, moreover, 't was not a case of throwing down a paper as in a registry office. He had to come in and tell where his claim was, and then he had to have his affidavit drawn up and then it was sworn to. Then the clerk had to find out what claims had been registered before. And yet they reglstc'ed an average of forty claims a day, even with the miseralile facilities they had. And no officers could have done Ijetter. Then, it is charged that information could not be got by those who desired it as to unrecorded ground. It was proper that It should bo given out, but the reason why it was not givr-n out was that the thinsj was Im possible. There were, practically, hardly any of the creeks surveyed. Dominion, Bonanza and El Dorado wore surveyed and the men were at work upon others. But a lot of men would stampede to a creek and then rush back to the office to record their claims, expecting the clerks to be able 1o say off-hand what ground was recorded and what was not. Under the circumstances, this was utterly impossible. The information could only be had as the result of a consider- able amount of careful work, after the sur- veyor had gone upon the creek and actually surveyed and scaled it. so that tlie clerks could know what they were doing. I sent surveyors there last winter for that purpose. And. last year, when 1 was taking luy esti- mates through the House for the Surv.\vor General's branch, I explained that some of the surveyors were needed for the very pur- pose of surveying the claims and getting them straightened out. And what happened? The hon. member for York, N.B. (Mr. Foster) got up and protested against anything of that kind. I will read his remarks, they are well worth reading in view of the present state of affairs. I read this not so much to make a point about the surveying of claims In par- ticular as to show that rules that apply in one place do not apply in another, that prac- tice that is good in one place may not be good in another ; and that If you are going to make a practice for Dawson City, you have to fit It to the circumstances you have to deal with. The hon. gentleman "said : Surely the hon. gentleman Is not going to take the public funds of the country to defray the cost of surveying out mining clp-lms In the Yu- kon. In British Columbia, If I ^ake up a claim, and he takes up a claim, and If there is any clash In respect to the claim, we jave got to got that settled by getting a Crown grant, after a survey for a Crown grant. We have to pay our own surveyors, the dispute can only be sett'.ed when the surveys are made, and the actual bounds are set out, not by the Government, not at the ex- pense of the Governmeut, but at thei expense of the holders of the claims themselves. The same in the province of Ontario. Provincial money does not survey the claims of the claim-holder In On- tario. That Is all at the expense of the mlne- holUers, or the claim-holder himself. In Ontario you have to pay about $2 an acre for a survey; in British Columbia you have to pay some JoOO or $000 In order to get a survey made for a Crown ^j grant. Surely the Dominion, In the Yukon, Is not going to take the burden of surveying out iniUvldual miners' claims. Later on, he said : I protest. If the practice has been begun, .isainst public funds being used for surveying .■lainis of Individual miners. Let each man pay I'cir the survey of his claims, as Is done In every nulling country in the world. [f we had followed the practice laid down by :he hon. member for York, trying, as the cir- L'umstances proved, tliey would have been \v(i!-se ; they would have been simply unbear- •ible. You could get at some informatiou about these claims If surveys had been made. Hut when a lot of people rushed out iiud si!uiipe<led an unknown creek concoruing which the clerks knew simply uothing—notb- liij; of its geography, nothing ot its length,- wlicther it was five or fifty miles, not even - wliere it was ; and when they then dash at the office to record their claims, how is tlie clcfk to give them information ? And the next day men come in and demand to know wliat ground is recorded. The records Imvo uot been entered up, the plans have not been made— how can you tell anything about tlKMn ? The people expected that, even uu- dor these circumstttnces, the clerk would do everything, just as it is done in a reglstiy office in the city of Ottawa. It Is contrary to all reason, and it could not be done. The (■old Commissioner did not have sufficient accommodation in his office. But that was not his fatdt, nor was it my fault. 1 have pointed out to the House that tliere was no .easou to suppose that this enormous rush of people would go to I>awson in the spring. We were not pi'o- viding for that ; we were providing for ipgistratlon in other places where we thought the people were going. And the Gold Goni- mlssioner, living in Dawson City, In the win- ter of 1897, had no notion of whnt was fining to happen when the water opened In the spring. He did not know until a very sh.nc time before the rush came, when some pi'ople got In over the Ice and warned him. He im- mediately let a contract for a new hiilldiiic for his office. But you cannot get a new ; building in Dawson City all in a minute it was a slow matter. The building was cm ; finished until Major Walsh got there. It ] the meantlDJe they were having a dreadfu^' time with the accommodation they bad They were trying to meet the requirement^ of these twenty or thirty thousand peoplff tOi 27 rant, after a survey ve to pay our own aly be aett'.ed when le actual bounds are lent, not at the ex- it at the> expense ot ■mselves. The same rovlnclal money doss claim-holder In On- ipense ot the mlne- himself. In Ontario acre for a survey; in o pay some ?500 or J made for a Crown 1, in the Yukon, is 3n of surveying out e has been begun, used for surveying Let each man pay , as is done in every ictice laid down by , trying, as the cir- would liave been leen simply unbuai- some Information eys had been made. 10 rushed out and creek conceruing nply nothing— uotli- thing ot its length, ['ty miles, not even they then dash at claims, how Is tiie •mation ? And tlie d demand to Icnow The records have )lans have not been 11 anything about ?tod that, even un- the clerk would do done in a registry wa. It Is contrary 1 not be done. The not have sulHclent Hce. But that was !is it my fault. the House that suppose that this pie would go to We were not pro-j vere providing for' !s where we thought And the Gold Com- ;on City, In the win' 1 of what was goln ater opened in the V until a very shoi, e, when some people mrned liim. He im- for a new buikliui: cannot get a new V all in a minute he building was lioi,, ilsh got there. It*" > having a dreadfti Qodatlon they ha^ et the requirement ty thousand poopl tb^l had come In there, some thousands of >m were recording claims, or attempting >cord claims, all at the same time, iw, I want to call attention to another ig, because I think the House is entitled :now why it is these things have hap- !d. And I must say it passes my com- lension why men ordinarily sensible and inable should expect that under the lumstances that existed in Dawson for or three months— circumstances never ylled in Canada before — everything Id be done exactly as it would have been in one of the departments in the city Ittawa. But it seems to be held by some fur newspaper critics, and even by some gentlemen in the House of Commons, this is what ought to hpve been done. I to call attention to the fact that in Brlt- lolumbia the men who stake out claims irospectors, men who, almost without ex- Ion, are in the habit of prospecting, I think hon. members of British Col- la will bear me out when I say that In irovlnce a miner's stake is considered that it is a thing almost unknown for r's stake to be pulled up or defaced (Stroyed, or for a man to come along itake the ground that has already been Why ? Because the miner under- the miners' laws, and knows perfectly :hat no man has any security unless he Its the rights of others. And they Ically never have any difficulty in the offices in British Columbia. But what (ned In Dawson City. We had thousands ►pie to whom nothing was sacred. 1 ly on the Table of the House a report iceedings which will show that one leliberately staked ground over another stakes. He walked along, put down ikes and marked his claim when stakes there already. Then he went back tie ottloe at Dawson City, swore that the id was vacant, that the laud was un- led, and got a certificate for It, though been staked out by another man who Iso got a certificate for it. Is beyond the possibility of dls- that there were men in Daw- .iK^Olty who constantly went out and slaked dViP land that had been staked before, came t|B, llppllGd to have the claims recorded, and toiSikt affidavit that the land was unrecorded. Mdb l^ave gone out where claims were staked, the names off the stakes, and put iwn names on Instead. Now, I want to ly sensible man how any Gold Corn- ier living could have kept his records mid have got correct Information and every man's claim as he applied to recorded, under such a condition of inces as that. It could not be done. Iflcatlon to Mr. Fawcett— an honest jus I Ijelieve him- 1 believe him to be upon his long record of faithful pub- ice in this country, I believe him to ist until he Is proved to be dishonest, Ive him that amount oT fair play- it is fair to say of bim that be laboured under a most unparalleled set of cir- cumstances, that no man ever had such frightful difficulties to cope with, and so little facilities of any kind to enable him to cope with them successfully. They were cir- cumstances that could not be helped. I want to tell the House that there has been a story going which everybody here has read— it has gone the rounds of the press, it has been repeated in conversation, and ft is something like this : That a man has gone into the Gold Commissioner's office to record his claim, that he has been told to come back next day, that he came back next day and found the claim recorded in the name of somebody else. That is given as evidence, as a proof, mind you, of the fact that the official has given it illicitly. Improperly and dishonestly to somebody else. Now, I say that does not prove anything of the kind. There is not a lawyer living who has the least conception of the value of evi- dence, who would even suggest that under the conditions that existed there, there was even an implication of anything wrong. Why, Sir, think of the rush that was going on ; I wonder that they were able to record anybody's claim immediately upon applica- tion ; because when a man came in while that rush was going on, it was necessary for the clerk to satisfy himself, before he re- corded the claim and gave a certificate, that that claim had not been recorded to anybody else. In a great many cases search had to be made, when the business was going on very fast the records would naturally not be entered up, and these would have to be en- tered up, and unless the clerk was perfectly famfiiar with that particular piece of ground, he would have to scale out the creek, see the amount of ground that was there, and the number of claims that had been recorded, before he gave a certificate. In many cases he would llnd the record had been gi^en to somebody else, in many cases lie would find that the ground did not penult of as many claims as people were applying to be re- corded. The result was, no doubt, that men came in and applied to have claims recorded, it could not be done on tliat day. and they were told to come back the next day, and when they came back and found they had oeen recorded in somebody else's name, they concluded that there had been illicit and im- proper dealings in the Commissioner's office, but there Is no evidence of that. Now. If a m.in thought that his claim had been illicitly given lo somebody else, his remedy was sim- ple : He had merely to go to the Gold Com- missioner and enter a protest. That has be.en done in plenty of cases. I have tried an appeal myself— I remember at least one case of that kind. All the person aggrieved had to do was to enter a protest, and if it was a simple case, Mr. Fawceft tried it him- self ; if it was a complicated case, he would call in Judge Maguire. Judge Maguire took the evidence and heard the case, heard the lawyers on both sides, certified his opinion to Mr. Fawcett, and Mr. Fawcett (leclded In accordance with the opinion of the lil till i (III I ;Mi!iir ^'Nli lltiii 28 ^^ Judge. When you come to examine these things, these iillegatlons, when you look at them In the light of ordinary business, there Is no evidence whatever of any Impropriety or crookedness In anything that has occurred. Mr. Speaker, I lived In Manitoba during what was known as the land boom. We had a fine brick post office, with a postmaster and a trained set of officials, a great array of lock boxes and every modern convenience that can be suggested. We had a land registry otilce specially built for the purpose, a com- petent registrar, a flrst-class set of clerks, and books with a proper system of book- keeping in which every letter had been en- tered up long before the rush took place. There was no survey to be done, no trouble al)out boundaries, but everything moved like clockwork. Well, in the city of Winnipeg, with a brick post office and a large staff of clerks, wltii every modern convenience, with telegraphic and express communication with Ottawa so that anything In the nature of additional help could have been had at any time, I have seen men stand twelve hours in line in front of the post office in the city of Winnipeg, in the middle of civilization, and I have seen a man give another man $10 to get his place in the line. I say further, that It was well known at that time In the city of Winnipeg that a man who did not want to stand In line could get his mall by paying a boy to let him in at the side door. I wa3 a clerk in a law office at the time, and I know that was done. Yet did anybody ever hear the Government of that day charged with corruption on that account ? Mr. McGregor. That was In 1882, and I have seen it myself. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I have no doubt there are many in this House who stood in that line. Did anybody ever hear the Government of the Dominion of Canada charged with corruption on that ac- count ? The thing was too absurd. But when the thing happened in Dawson City, where there was no possibility of coping with the difficulty, the Government is charg- ed with corruption. Now, is not that the height of absurdity ? When I was a ^aw student at Winnipeg, at the same time, I have waited for two weeks to get an ab- stract from the registry office. Mr. McGregor. So have I, often. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.! The registry was thoroughly equipped witli i "erythlng that modern knowledge and skill' uld put In the hands of the registrar, Ijuti ■■, ith everything that could possibly be done i facilitate business, I have had to wait two -^ ks for a single abstract. But at Dawson Ciiy these gentlemen thouglit that if they had to wait half an hour they were being outraged and somebody was defrauding them. Now, I am only putting this matter to the House as to men of common sense. When these things happened at Winnipeg, did anybody shout about the Government l)eing corrupt ? Not at all ; everybody then know the exceptional state of affairs, knew that the officers of the Government, the offi- cers of the land registry office, the officers of the Dominion lands office, the officers in th( post office, were all doing their best to keep up with thcli work, and no fault was found with them in any way, shape or form. Mr. PRIOR. Would the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him a (luestlon ? He has stated that he has known In Wirnlpeg met to give other men $10 for their places In thf procession. Did he ever know any man to go In at a side door and give a Government official $10 to get his record In ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I have known of a man giving a clerk $5 t( go in at the side-door to get his mall. I did not accuse the Dominion Government o' corruption on that account. I do not thin': the postmaster found it out at all ; he did not know It. There is another charge which !ia> been made whicli I cannot fall to dejil with. I have been told, and this Is a seri ous charge, that, under my administration of the department, the law respecting the staking of claims by officials was changed practically changed, and the hon. membor for Plctou undertook to deliver to the Hous? and to myself particularly, a lecture upon the spirit of the law and the spirit In whicliir tlie law had been administered in forme. ^ years. He read a) clause of the Dominloni Lands Act to show what the law was In thatl respect in regard to the Dominion laudsJ and he explained the honourable position oil the Department of the Interior and tlij spirit In which the law had been admlnls tered by the late Government for yean past I do not object to being lectured one In a while— I do not object to being lecture even by a man who does not know,, perhaps] as much about the subject as I do-rbul when the hon. member for Pictou under! takes to tell me how the public domain \i the west has been administered, the onli conclusion is, that the hon. gentleman ha| been asleep for the last eighteen year Does he mean to tell me that the offlclali of the late Government have not dealt ii that domain for the last eighteen years, tha| they have not speculated in it ? There is i prominent Dominion official in the town I which I lived, who took up u homestead, valuable property, a few miles distant, and] upon a colourable performance of the dutle —there was no settlement, and he was no( a farmer— he got hla patent under the Got) emment of the hon. geutlemen opposite, will send the name over to hon. gentlemei opposite, and I will bring down the papeif on file In my department. If they will moTi for them ; but after they have read then they will wish they had not moved for then Does the hon. gentleman mean to say, tha| tuel spirit of the law, as they administer it, was that the men making the law, anf the men administering the law, should uti ^9 t at all ; everybody theH lal state of affairs, knev the Government, the offl4 Istry office, the officers o(| 1 office, the officers In the 1 doing their best to keen , and no fault was fouudii ivay, shape or form. ould the hon. gentleman ra a question ? He hai known In Wirnlpeg men ;10 for their places in thd ever know any man tq p and give a Government] is record In ? OP THE INTERIOR. iP' i« nan giving a clerk $5 ti or to get his mail. I did ominion Government o account. I do not thiiikj Qd it out at all ; he di(i| er charge which lias I f-annot fall to denl told, and this Is a seri mder my administration the law respecting the )y officials was changed I, and the hon. membor;*: k to deliver to the Hon^i tlcularly, a lecture upni V and the spirit In whicli administered in forme clause of the Dominim (vhat the law was In lli i tile Dominion Iniid- e honourable position n the Interior and tli' law had been admlnis Government for yoni ct to being lectured ones object to being lecture, does not know,.perhai)'; e subject as I do— b«i^ mber for Pictou underf w the public domain ii|, administered, the onlw; the hon. gentleman ha^' le last eighteen years|* ell me that the official* ment have not dealt u last eighteen years, thai ilated in it ? There is 1 official in the town li took up u homestead. , few miles distant, am jrformance of the dutl^ lement, and he was noj a patent under the Gov . geiitlemen opposite. "^ over to hon. gentle mei bring down the papei ment. If they will moTi •r they have read thei had not moved for thei eman mean to say, tbn' iv, as they administer*'' n making the law, ai. Ing the law, should no Ic In the public property ? Does the gentleman forget the grants of public 1, of public property, that for years were ie to the friends and intimates of the fernaieut notoriously ? Doe.s the hon. iber for Pictou forget that the name of [own brother, Mr. Stuart Tupper, that [name of Mr. Hugh John Macdonald, the i of the late Sir John Macdonald, appear- connectlon with these transactions ? the hon. gentleman forget the grant of Is made in the Prince Albert district, the pit of which was the driving of those lers into rebellion ? I think he must been asleep for the last eighteen years, does not know how the public pro- of this country has been administered, if he wants to know how It has been llnistered, I will give him the statement ine of his own political friends. This leman says : by should I be singled out for public oen- Mr. John Charles Rykert. lien there are dozens of members in the '■House who not only have applied for and led limits for themselves, but sit there dally money Into their own pockets, I cannot ind. Is the spirit of the law, as admlnls- by hon. gentlemen opposite. Now I get down to particulars to show you the practice was. I sent to the Yu- the mining regulations of hon. gentle- opposite. So far as the staking of by officials was concerned, there was ange whatever made by me in the re- ons, In the letter, or spirit, or practice ese regulations. It has been dlng- into the ears of the people of this for the last six months, that such ^ _ ng as Government officials staking a ij^ilning claim was never heard of until H» batch of Grit officials got to Dawson OSt^ Let us see ; records are sometimes Inoplivenleut things. My batch of Grit offl- ctii» got to Dawson City In February, 1898. Waui was the first Government official who ttfl|li^ a claim In the Yukon district? Would ItOJiK gentlemen opposite like to know ? I Wip tell them. The man who first staked ^ toinlng claim, as a Government official, Wm Captain Charles Constantiue, the mln- H^*' recorder appointed by hon. gentlemen oMOlBite, and It was done in January, 1896, But > ipaouths before this Government took It was done under the law, and re- ilons, and practice which were inaugu- by the hon. gentlemen opposite. Can nderstand that ? ^\r. Constantine was cer under the late government. He was in pursuance of the instructions he ;nd he was within the law, and he was his rights. The Government had no to say that he was wrong, because he ever been told not to do It. He staked ^Jclalms in January, 1898, and he was ing recorder himself at that time. I m CQ1 a do not think hon. gentlemen can find that Thomas Fawcett or Mr. Senkler, the Gold Commissioner, ever recorded any claims in their own names. More than that, Mr. Speaker, Captain Constantine recorded something like twenty-two claims In the name of other men In the employ of the Government. The practice of recording mining claims by men In the employ of the Government was in full swing, uncheck- ed and unnoted, before this Government came into office. Mr. Wade, one of the officials whom I sent up there, came to me, when I was standing on the quarter- deck of th3 " Quadra," on the way to Skag- way, and said to me : "I do not think It Is likely that I will have any time to stake claims ; but if I should desire to do so. Is there anything in the law to prevent me doing it ?" I thought for a minute, and then said : " You are not an officer con- nected with the administration of the min- ing law in any way ; you have nothing to do with the registration of mining claims In any way, shape or form, directly or In- directly, and I do not see anything that will prevent you staking claims." This Is the only conversation I ever had with Mr. Wade on the subject, and I never had any other conversation with any other officer on the subject/ at all, and never gave any instruc- tions. When I was speaking, I was speak- ing upon the regulations. Last winter we had down here from Dawson City, Dr. Wills, surgeon, of the Mounted Police, a political friend of hon. gentlemen opposite. When he was here, the fact was circulated that Dr. Wills had staked claims In the Yukon district : It was a matter of common talk, and It was referred to in the newspapers, but we heard no howl from the Conserva* tlve press of this country about the iniquity of Government officials staking claims, not a syllable. There was no harm In It until Mr. Wade, a Liberal official, staked a claim. That Is when the enormity arose. I do not stand here to say that it Is desirable that Governmeit officials should stake claims ; I put my name to a recommendation to Coun- cil to say they shall not. I have done that as tno result of experience ; I am not like the hon. gentleman, I am not too proud to learn by experience. And, Sir, if I am la fault In any way whatever, and If my col- leagues are in fault In any way whatever, it Is not for deteriorating the public service of this country, but it is for not having fore- sight enough to remedy the evil which was done by gentlemen on the other side of the House. My hon. friend (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) has made the charge — the hon. mem- ber for York (Mr. Foster) vigorously sec- onding him— tliat we did nothing in Dawson City for sanitation, that we did nothing to help anybody. Now, I am going lo give the hen. gentleman something to look up and I will give him a week to look it up. I want hira to find for me and to cite it in this House, a case in the North-west Territories, "■»»»» III till!!!! 30 where there had been no time for the estab- lishment of a local administration, of any town where the Federal Government ever did anything for sanitation. I want him to cite me Just one such case if he can. We Lave been opening up new places in Canada for a great many years, and I want him to find just one place where, before the or- ganization of a local governing body, the Federal Government has done anything for sanitation. I will give these hon. gentlemen opposite an illustration of what happened In the town I lived in where the very same thing happened— only the conditions were not nearly so aggravated— as in Dawson. When the town of Brandon was opened up, four thousand or five thousand people sud- denly planted themselves on the side of a hill ; the ladies stayed in the house and the- men wallied around In top boots, up to their knees in mud for a considerable len:?th of time. We did not growl about the neglect of the Government ; we did not want the T'ede- ral Goverament to put dSwn sidewalks and take sanitary measures, but we met and formed a town committee and with our own money put down sidewalks for ourselves. iVT, — rs * , i , ■ , — ^-»^^..x,^. uiii-y case or persons wuo are uesmuie. UD That is what every place has done under the , to the present time, people have made It a Care of Indigent persona | OlOl do do nut do do 7,00o| Altogether, for relief, for works practlcallyj of charity and local help, there has beonl Hpent up to the present time, no less a sural tlian $44,183. Let the hon. gentlemen lool(| up their records and show me where theyl ever made the faintest pretense of dolngi anything of the kind, and then It will bel time for them to come here and talk to usl about neglect. I have no record of the ex J act amount of relief that was given by tbel Mounted Police, but the Mounted Police upon I the trail practically fed every one who camel along and who had not food. That has beenl apparently a necessity of the situation andl I have not felt like giving orders to the) contrary. But at the present time I Intend,! when the spring opens, to give orders thaTJ I'.ereafter people will have to feed them- 1 solves, and the police will stop giving out! provisions, as there is no excuse for people! b'jing there, after the first month of sprim,'! without being iv a condition to take care off themselves ; except, of course. In the ordl hary case of persons who are destitute. Up! same circumstances. I would like the hon. gentlemen to hunt up a case where anything else has been done, except In the case of this very Dawson City. Here are the amounts wliicli have been spent, according to our last returns, for assistance of various kinds at Dawsoa ; Paid for work on Bonanza Creek trail.. $4,000 Donation to hospital 5,000 Fire engine, Dawson 2,500 Did the hon. gentlemen opposite ever buy business— and there seems to have been uo-| riling to prevent It— of preying upon thef l?ollce for supplies, and so In addition to thef amounts I have read the police have glveEl a very large amount for relief. I beg to sayl further, that according to the estimates of| Mr. Ogilvie which have been provided fori l)y his council, similar assistance for locali improvements and relief for the six monthsl from the 1st of January, 1899, to the SOth- ,^.^. __^ June, 1899, will be no less a sum than $83,- a fire engine fo"r any town fn the Xorth-weYt S^> ™ost of wnlch will be provided for out ] Territories ? If they did I would like them to cite the case. Donation to tlie liospital |2,500 Other donation to hospital 1,000 do do 1,000 do do 2,000 Donation to an Individual to enable him to leave the Yukon owing to illness.... 420 Work on the Bonanza trail. 200 Another hospital grant 2,000 do do 2,000 Repairing roads and bridges, Bonanza Creek 80 Contribution to the Are brigade 1,000 Hospital at Grand Porks 850 Another hospital donation 183 Treatment of indigent patients 345 When did these hon. gentlemen opposite pay for medical treatment in the North-west Territories ? Another advance to an hospiUl $3,000 Small amount f-r .elief ig Small amount for work In connection with the fire jg Voted by the Council to fit up part of tlie buildings for an almshouse 2 000 Another hospital grant '527 Treatment of indigent patients....." ,".*,' .".*.' 155 Another grant to hospital 440 Indigent patients ' ' * 375 do 6,000 of local revenue, Now, Mr. Speaker, who are the people that we are treating me<^llcally, who are the peo' pie that we are feeding ? Who are the peo- ple that we are housing ? Are they Cana- dians ; are they our own citizens ? Not a bli of It ; nine out of ten of them are foreigners, —men who went there when we advised them not to go. I Issued an emphatic warn- ing last fall ; I pointed out what would be the result of a great many of these people going there. And the Secretary of the In- terior of the United States did the same thing. But they went there notwith- standing ; every man thinks, of course, that whoever else gets killed or whoever else gets Into trouble he will come back all right However, the people went In and they arc there. There are hundreds, I was almoEt going to say thousands of men who have spent all they had In that country, and wlio are not able to take care of themselves. We have been feeding and caring for and fur- nishing hospital accommodation for these men, foreigners who simply went In there because they wanted to carry away Cana- dian gold, and having no regard for us and having no regard for our Institutions. I Mill venture to say that there has never been a district opened up on this continent RV 31 I niol 50 7,000 orks practically there has been !, no less a sum gentlemen look me where they •tense of doing then it will be and talk to us ■cord of the ex- IS given by the ited Police upon r one who came That has been e situation and orders to the t time I Intend, :ive orders tha! to feed them- stop giving out cuse for people lonth of sprifli! to take care of J se, In the ord; e destitute. Up liave made it a I have been uo ying upon the addition to tlie lice have given f. I lJ€g to say le estimates of n provided for tance for local^ the six months '- 99, to the SOtli sum than $83,- rovided for out the people that lio are the peo' tio are the pe* Lre they Cana^ sns ? Not a bit >^; are foreigners,'^' m we advised *' emphatic warn- - ivhat would be )f these people tary of the In- ates did the there notwitb of course, that whoever else back all right and they utk' I was almost uen who have intry, and who f; lemselves. We ? for and fur- :ion for thef:e went in there y away Cana- ird for us and istltutlons. I are has never this continent There as much has been done by the Gov- rnment for the people as has been done for le people In the Yukon district by the Fede- il Government of Canada. We fed these ftoplo when they bad nothing to eat. We Bnt police out to hunt for them when they cere lost We did everything for them, tcept to find for each one a good paying lalm, and four-flf ths of this row is because ire did not do that. Now, I must apologlzf }r speaking so long. Some hon. MEMBKRS. Go on. • The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOIt. his explanation has only got to be given ce, and it might as well be given tirst as St while we are at it. The ofHcers of the strict have been attaclied on account of hat is known as the water front trans- tion. I will give the House the parlicuhirs it. Mr. Wade, after going to Dawson, nsulted with Mr. Fawcett, and thoy came the conclusion, according to the statement ven to me, that the occupation of a certain jj^ece of the water front was inadvisable, for sanitary reasons. The people were camped ug on a narrow strip of the water front ; d the House will understand, without fur- r explanation, that that was not a de- able state of things. Mr. Wade and Mr. wcett called for tenders for a lease of this ater front upon certain conditions. There ere no newspapers at the time, but they nt out word to the leading men of the wn. Inviting them to tender. They received le following tenders : W. Burk, yearly rent- of $3,000, payable quarterly ; M. L. D. lelzer, offered an annual rental of $120 for iHch 25 feet, and on the same date made an lliter of $7,500 yearly ; Drunsmore, Spencer McPhee offered a rental of $25,000 a year, ;yable monthly, in advance ; John Gamer- offered a monthly rental of $2,050 ; Mor- ion & McDonald offered a rent of $30,000 IT annum. Morrison & McDonald's tender ■being the highest, the land was leased to ^em. The lease was for one year, with wer to the Government or its olBcer to ter- inate It on one month's notice. The streets ere all permitted to extend through the later front to the river. These are the par- lulars of that transaction. I do not see any ing on the face of the transaction that Is proper. It has been Intimated to the House at the men who leased this property im- .ediately turned round and leased portions it for very much larger sums. That Is le ground of attack on Mr. Wade and Mr. wcett. Another ground is that the men o were on the land ought to have been -«#irmitted to have kept it for nothing. So vf|>u may pay your money and take your choice. One ground is, that they „-otd not get enough rent for the land ; other Is, that the people who were it ought to have been permitted to occupy without paying any rent. If they did not enough rent, that was not their fault, ause they called for tenders, and gave lease to the highest tenderer. When Major Walsh went to the Yukon, he con- firmed the transaction. I have no knowledge of anything incorrect or Improper about it. There is nothing on the face of It to in- dicate any impropriety. On the contrary, there is everyt) iig on the face of it to In- dicate that it was eminently proper, and what any reasonable man would do under the circumstances to get some revenue for the Government, and to hav^ this piece of ground placed in the hands of tenants who would keep It in proper order. I have letters here, which I will read at a later date, show- ing the terms of the lease, and they show that sidewalks were to be erected on the ground and proper sanitary precautions taken. Mr. Wade, I may say, emphatically and positive- ly denies that there was the least shadow of Impropriety in any shape or form about the transaction, and he challenges anybody to call him before Mr. Ogllvie and have inves- tigated any charge that may be made against him in connection with It. In one of the statements which was read by the hon. member for Pictou, it was stated tliat Judge Magulre had an interest In this trans- action. Of Judge Maguire I will speak at a later dale ; but, in the meantime, I may state that after the hon. gentleman had made his speech I telegrapher! to Judge Maguire In regard to the matter, and I have his an- swer, as follows : West Prince Albert, April 1. I have never had any Interest whatever, di- rectly or indirectly, In water front lease at Daw- son. THOS. H. MAGUIRE. The House will note, Mr. Speaker, that the lease contained a provision that it should be terminable at one month's notice ; and if the officers saw, after the lease had been granted, that what was alleged was actually taking place, that the tenants were getting $120,000 a year, and were only paying $30,- 000, they could cancel the lease at a month's notice, and they would have promptly done so. The lease came into force on the 9th of April. Mr. Ogllvie arrived back at Dawson, I think, in the latter part of September ; and if Mr. Ogllvie, on the ground, thought the lease was not in the public interest, he had the power to cancel it at a month's notice ; but up to the present time, he has not ad- vised me that he has cancelled It. So my Impression Is that Mr. Ogllvie has come to the conclusion that the lease was In the pub- lic interest. As to the policy of the matter, whether the lease was advisable or not, no one In this House can tell. I cannot tell, nor can any of my colleagues tell. Only those on the ground can tell. Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). May I ask the hon. gentleman if he will put the lease of this water front on the Table of the House ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Will it answer the hon. gentleman's purpose If I do so to-morrow when the House meets ? 1M!iil|l| i::;ii h\i r! 82 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). No, It would not ' Kces to a newspaper office and says he was quite as well. , beaten out of a valuable claim by the offl. : ci.ils and who never stated In the Minlstor's The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, office that he had lost his claim or mado I win do so when I cease speaking to-night. : nny complaint whatever. Mr. Leblanc said The papers are all here, Now If the House will permit me, I am going to examine a few of the statements made by the hon. member for Plctou's wit- that Mrs. Dubois lost a claim by anothoi' person taking It up while she was waltin- for a survey, and that one J. S. Murdocic got it registered. So far as that Is concern nesses. First, Major Caddell said : That ; cd, If that be the case, all that Mrs. Dubois three men had staked claims, and appUed to has to do Is to walk Into Mr. Ogllvle's otlicn record them, and were told to come b^ck In and prove, those facts and she will get hi r two or three days, and when they did go claim at once. And I have to say that Mrs. back they found that the claims had l)een Dubois and the rest of the public In Dawson recorded by somebody else. 1 have already City have been notified to do that very stated that In my judgment that does not ' thing, and If she has not done It, It Is hcV afford the slightest evidence that there was own fault, not mine or the fault of the Gov- any crookedness in connection with the mat- j ernment. Mr. Ogilvie was sent his commis- ter. They could readily have gone to the ; ision, and here is a copy of the notice which Gold Commissioner and entered a protest, he issued : and had their protest tried like anybody else, j Dr. Leblanc Is cited as another witness bvj PUBLIC NOTICE, the hon. member for Plctou. I presume the: t,„ .„ w^^rv, if ^^„ n«„„->..« . hon. member is quoting from an intei-vl-iw Z^'^'^'' ^,'''"" '' f^^^ °T "1 . . o , with Dr. Leblanc, which appeared in a Mont- ' r^^^L^^i'Tavf h?', Tn*^^"", 1^1 ^'^^^v,^?"'. V^ re.U papery He stated that he had staked al^^J^^^^^ ^:stS'^^n^rX^Zl claim on Bonanza Creek and lost It because I tain matters and things in such letters patent he did not stand in with the officials. After | referred to. The scope of the Investigation will Dr. Leblanc came back from the Yukon, he i appear from the preamble as follows : — came to my private secretary's office, and j Whereas it appears from a report from Our sent word by my private secretary to me, ' Minister of the Interior of Canada that he had not that he wished to see me, but to know i "'"'''■■ consideration a coraunicatlon dated at If I wanted to see him. I asked my private 1 ?,^^f "• 7"^°" '^^Jl\°''li ^^'^ "IV^^lV ^^-^l',,^^: secretary if he had any business with me, ! Ser Preml'er'!,fcanada°sSid bTo'^T'^c and he told me that Dr. Leblanc said he had ; Armstrong, as chairman, Percy McDougail, sec- no business with me, but wanted to know ; retary, and a number of other persons professing fi I wanted to see him. I instinicted my to have been duly appointed a miners' committee jrivate secretary that if he had no business j at a mass meeting of the miners of the Yukon vilh me, I did not want to see him. He did ' Territory, in which communication it Is alleged not enter any complaint or suggest any com- i i^^' '"i^py ot the Government ofllclala have for- plaint; and I desire to know what weight i ''"'''^ ,^\^"" ,1^'"^ '° the people's confidence and t!ip memliers of this House qttnoh to n etntP- ^ 'aspect by their conduct and action In certain tuc memoeis or tnis iiouse aitacn to a state- , matters. • Our said Minister further observes that ment of a man who, when he comes back ; the committee alleges that the Gold Commis- from the Yukon district, says he staked a i sloner's ofBce is practically closed, and has been valuable claim on Bonanza Creek, and lost . for a considerable time to the miners who had not It because he did not stand in with the offl- I the means and desire to bribe the clerks In order cials, and then comes to the office of the I *° obtain knowledge of the record which ought Minister who has the power to right the ' ?° ^^ public. It is further charged that wholesale wrong, if there was a wrong, and does not l"fo''inatlon with regard to unrecorded iground take the trouble to say that there was a wrong, or to lodge a complaint of any sort. Would auy body pay any attention to a statement of tliat kind. If he lost a claim, why did he not say so ? They must be a ^ ery extraordinary lot of people who have gone to the Yukon district. I have lived in the west a great many years, and out there, if any body undertook to defraud any one of his property, the one defrauded would very soon make a complaint ; and if any ;r>an undertakes to defraud another of a homestead in the North-west Territories, what Is the result. You will find a pile of papers that high, you will find that officer after officer, clerk after clerk, commissioner after commissioner, Minister after Minister has to Invest that homestead matter. That is the history of the Department of the In- terior. But here we are told that we should believe the evidence of a man who coolly Is conveyed to certain individuals outside ti:e office who obtain men to stake and record the ground in consideration of an interest in the same. Our Minister further stated that It Is charged that dissatisfaction has arisen with re- spect to decisions in claim contests, particularly owing to the Crown prosecutor, who, while re- tained as advocate by one of the contestants, was giving lesral advice to the Gold Commis- sioner. The Dominion Lands ap' nt is openly charged with s,erlous breaches of i ust and mal- feasance In office, aud some of the officials con- nected with the recorder's office are alleged to he incompetent. Our said Minister further submits that it is stated in the communication that hard- ships have been caused to many of the claim owners owing to the want of experience of the mining Inspectors. The committee further re- presents that the Crown timber agent has granted such concessions and laid down such stringent regulations that only a few parties have the pri- vilege of supplying cord-wood this coming winter. I may say. and the House will be surprised to learn, that the complaint about the cord- 83 d says he was m by the offl. the Minister's laim or made . Leblanc said m by another e was waiting J. S. Murdock !iat Is eoncern- it Mrs. Dubois Ogllvle's ollice le will get hir say that Mrs. t)llc Jn Dawson do that very ae It, It Is her ilt of the Gov- Qt his commis- B notice which CB. Great Seal of I'.ir Majesty's Inquire Into cer- h letters patent ivestigation will Hows : — eport from Our Ida that he had ition dated at LUgust, 1898, ad- ble Sir Wilfrid led by G. T. C. McDougall, sec- rsons professing ners' committee s of the Yukon ion it la alleged ncials have for- confldence and tion in certain Br observes that Gold Commis- 1, and has been srs who had not clerks In ordfr •d which ought, that wholesale ecorded (grounfl lis outside tiie and record the interest in the ited that It is arisen with re- ts, particularly who, while re- he contestants. Gold Commis- P' tit is openly I . ust and mal- le offlcials con- -e alleged to he urther submits tion that har'l- of the claim ^erlence of the tee further re- ent has granted such stringent s have the pri- coming wlntpr. be surprised tout the cord- was made because Major Walsh Issued order forbidding the granting of any con- slons within six miles of Dawson, and Is he did In order that the people In Daw- »n would have all the timber within six lies of It for their supply. The order was le for their own benefit ; account of this and other reasons set forth ) communication referred to, a copy of which hereto attached, the committee ask for the intment of a commission of Inquiry, nd whereas we deem it expedient that inquiry ier oath should be made with respect to the h or untruth of the foregoing charges, state- ts and complaints. ublic notice is hereby given that on Monday, 6th day of February, 1899, at the hour of 11 ock in the forenoon, I will sit in the Court e In Dawson, for the purpose of fixing a within which charges conolng within the 1 of the letters patent are to be laid before and let all persons desirous of prosecuting such charges then appear and they shall be d either in person or by counsel, as they may Wtfer. (Iter the expiration of the time to be fixed for g charges before me I shall proceed to fix e and place for the Investigation of such :es, of which time and place dut> and public will be given, .ted at Dawson this 25th day of January, 1899. WM. OQILVIB. Commissioner, rs. Dubois has lost her claim, as Dr lane says she has, all she has to do Is to In to Mr. Ogllvle's court aud make her ment, and she will get her claim if sha, prove the facts to be true. I do not see any further action can be required of "overnment. iw. I want to take up another statement by the hon. member for Plctou, and ., h I think affected the House In a cer- tlJDI way more than any other statement he iniae. Upon page 796 of " Hansard." the %^. gentleman quoted from a gentleman ""se name, lllte most of those whom he :ed, was not given, and what 1 propose Is this : I propose to take up the alie- ns of the corrupt acts, where I have positive means of getting at the truth of myself from the records in the office, show the House the reliability of these ments. The first statement I find I any means of checking at ail— the ns are not absolute, but I place them re the House as they are— is this with d to the water front, made by this lymous witness : was well understood In Dawson that Mr. and Major Walsh (and it was said Judge ire) held a half interest In this lease. I JBall read Major Walsh's denial before I through ; I have already read Judge Maguire's denial. Mr. Wade has denied It Itively and emphatically, publicly and rwlse, and has gone back to Dawson to appear before the Commissioner, handing in his resignation down here. here is tha gem, I was going to say, but on S— 3 It Is not— the gem is to come later. This gentleman says : These claims —Referring to the claims upon Dominion Creek- were sent out The House will note the language this gen- • tleman used and which was quoted by the hon. member for Plctou : .were sent out by the Gold Commissioner to be sold in Ottawa, supposedly at private auction, and Wade himself said, to my knowledge, that he proposed to get hold of all the unrecorded claims upon Dominion Creek. If the Qovenuuent proceeded to do what they had no right to do, to deny these prospectors the right of recording their claims, they should have put the claims up at public auction, first at Dawson, so as to allow the men who bad developed and Improved them a chance to purchase the same, and not send them to Ottawa, where they could be disposed of at private sale to a syndicate working in the In- terest of Walsh at a nominal figure, which Says this veracious gentleman— 1 presume, has been done by this time. Cer- tain it is that none of these claims have been sold in Dawson, where, according to law, if any public sale takes place, they should have been sold. Now, SO far as the rights of prospectors are concerned, the rule I have made, upon the information that has come to me, Is this : That any mrin who is shown to have staked a claim upon Dominion Creek before the order was made closing the creek, will gei\ his claim ; and If, through any cause, two men came into contest for the sajne claim, then the man who has staked a claim will get one of the reserve claims or one of the fractions. If he has not staked a claim before the order was made closing the creek, he will not get a claim. The order was made by Major Walsh to reserve certain claims and fractions, In pursuance of the policy of the Government, and in ac- cordance with the regulations. So, Major Walsh, instead of doing what was stated here, either sent to me, or brought with him —I think he brought It down— the record of the claims and fractions upon Dominion Creek ; and they were brought here for the purpose of being recorded as Government property, that they might be sold, not for the benefit of Walsh or Wood, but for the benefit of the public exchequer, Mr. Speak- er, you can form some idea of what the evi- dence of a witness Is worth, when he makes a statement such as I have read. If a man went into the witness-box and deliberately made statements that he presumed a rascal- ly transaction had been carried out, with- out the least knowledge as to whether it had been or not— impugning the character of a man without the slightest evidence, what possible importance could be attached to his statements ? Now, I will close this by read- ing the departmental letter, which shovni what was actually done. Major Walsh came Ill I III ' i ll i 34 letter to Mr. Ogllvle :— Ottawa, eth October, 1898. Dear Mr. Ogllvle,— I have spent to-day In consultation with Major Siiciiker, we have what I cull the gem of the tt'stiiiioiiy whifh the lion. Kenlleiuan buH of- fcit'd lH'fon> this lIoiiHO. AlthouKh It is in sonic roapoc'ts object lonnblc. I presume to cinl it. Ho goes on to spoali of a dispute Id "Walsh, your predecessor In olllce, and have gone n.^rnn] to a cliilni between a man naiiii'd carefully Into the Donilnliin Creok matter. I nin Donnelley, and a man named Nelson, who writing you now for tho purpose of saying that , , ^, partner a woman named Lueiie so far as I can Judge I fully approve of his ' ' . .. nnrtlculars of this action In reserving the fractions and other claims '•'""•, ^'"^ '^'^'.^ '"„ ' 1 , "' , lu ,' which have been reserved upon Dominion Creek, wl.icli hon. members cau read, und then he These fractions and claims so reserved have been ^oes on to say : l!:l;lt^!r;j;^,^irr?l^:l;:mr?;^?':;e':!i -ruey had no other proof to bring, and restoa not so roservt'd, owing to dilllcultloa In recording The clalnia and fractions reserved will be held for disposal by the Government In such manner as tlicir point. Judge Maguire stated that unlcaa Linlle and Andy could bring positive proof of the stauing of tho claim, he would advise Mr. Faw- may ho deemod a.lvlnable. My present Idea, in , ;■^'^L^r!-l";L'i'.^.?„lr!^.Llf„,',^fi';.''l!!"!!'' rigard to tho disposal of these claims is, that Inasmuch as they are snid to be e.xtremely valu- able, they should be advertised In London. New It tor want of any proof on behalf of the plain- tiff. The case was then adjourned for one week. I'liat night, about U o'clock, Luclle Elliott York, different cities In Canada, and In Dawson i ;;""o »P 1° Major Walsh's tout ; he had re City, and that they should be sold by public tender to be received and opened by yourself In llred ; she remained until morning and svas sent up tho river about 8 o'clock In Major Dawson CItv some time next spring. I ishall be , Walsh's canoe, accompanied by his private sec- glad to have your views upon this question at I'-'afy- «n^, ^^''■'^'^ ^y the Government policemen, vour convenience I '■'"cHo Elliott continued her nightly visits to For the purpose of checking over the Hat of ^'fJ","" Wa'sh during the continuance of the trial, the Dominion Creek claims, which Major Walsh* I ^^i '','"''•'' '^ needless to state, was decided In Lu- brought down, T think It will be desirable for '"i- «, favour. Major Walsh, at the time of his you to send down a plan and certified list of all "''■"•''""s llason with Luclle, was the Commls- claims. Major Walsh expressed a fear that there ' "'""^II <>' 'l^" Yukon, with full powers to remove might possibly be a mistake in the papers he ! *•'■ Pa^vcott. and to reverse his decisions and brought down. Yours faKhfully, . (Sgd.) CLIFFORD SIFTON. The Hovi.se will judffe acts. And after the case was decided, Donnelley was notified Indirectly that If hn would not appeal the case he (Major Walsh) would see that he received a grant for a claim down on Lower Do- I have given thp 1 minion Creek. facts. The statement of the hon. member i o^ i^o, =tn+„^«„+ i^ 4^i <. ikr 4 ttt i v l,r Plctou's witness is, that claims were : ,,^' ^^f « 2*^'?^"* 's- "^'^^ ^«^^^ sent down here that they might be boodled i nZn ni m^' T^nJ''Z^\!'' JZ^?^ *^f ft In by Major Walsh cislon of Mr. Pawcett, that Major Walsh Then. Mr. Speaker, this same veracious | i^Sf^ I!^^'<^«" *« K'^^ an unrighteous witness goes on to make a statement about '/.'^f '^ion In favour of this wrfman, and that a womai. named Nellie Cashman, and an- ' l^^l 7^1]'"''' ,^T ^'"* '"P'i^P''^^ relations- other named Belle Mulrooney. It appears ^^J'\ ^^ P't plain impllcatlon-wlth MaJ9r that Miss Cashman had dlfliculty in getting 1 }J^}»^' Induced Major Walsh to exercise a claim recorded, and It Is alleged that she i , "* Power. Mr. Speaker, the witness seems made some Improper arrangement, and that I ^^ ^''ff^* *"^*' ^'^ ^''•^ ^''^^ paragraph, he Captain Norwood, an ofBcer of the Govern- l,'^^! *"^ case was -.-i.- 1 by Judge Maguire. ment, was a party to It. And a similar ' ?,**• *^® allegation. v> lim it is sifted. Is, tliat statemc-ut, not exactly the same, but an alle- i Ir, ??f ""^r^,^!'*'!"'"-'' ^^'^^^^ Walsh, nud gatlou of Impropriety, Is made In connection ■ i"at Major Walsh nfl'ienced Judge Maguire with the claim of one Talmadge. These two ) :?,^'V.'*° unripls-'roi » decision In favour of statements are made by the same anonvm- i , " claim. Now, Judge Maguire would not ous witness as the one making the statement ' ^'^^ ^°^ ^'^^ worse man, If he had which I have just shown to be untrue. 1 1 "^^° appointed by this Government. But he have no means of knowing whether the state- 1 .^^'^^ ^'^^ appointed by this Government, but ments to which I now refer are true or not. But I have this to say : That if the hon. mem- ber for Plctou wanted an Investigation, all he had to do was to send the letter to Mr. Ogllvle, and we would have had a report showing whether the charge was true or not. I ha. a to say, further, that Captain Norwood If there, so that, as far as he Is concerned, the matter can be Investigated. Moreover, In view of the statements made alwut other people by this same anonymous witness, I should not think that there is much by the late Government. And I differ from the hon. member for Pictou In regard to the character of Judge Maguire. I think he is a most estimable man, a man of high character. I appeal to this House, I appeal to the mem- , ters from the North-west Territories, to say I the estimation In which Judge Maguire is held In thj North-west Territories, and as a judge of the Supreme Court of the North- west Territories. He sits there now, and I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, If it Is In ac- cordance with the proper practice of this 36 d that there Ig )f his. At the IH not true. I Then, Mr. he gem of the loiuiin hiiH of. ii>n(,'li ii 1h In I iiresiinu' to if a dispute In man named Nelson, who ii.'itiHMl Lnclle uliirs of this, and then he liiK, and rested tuci that un)(^3g Ive proof of the dvlso Mr. Faw- to say, dismiss ilf of the plaln- d for one week. LuoUe Elliott t ; bo had re- nins and was ock In Major lis private aoc- ncnt policemen, ghtly visits to nee nf the trial, I decided in Lu- ■he time of hU s the Commls- vvers to remove s decisions and llded, Donnelley ^oiild not appeal Id see that he 1 on Lower Do- ijor Walsh, as Bverse the de- Major Walsh a unrighteous nan, and that er relatlons- — with Mnj9r h to exercise irVltness seems taragraph, he idge MaRuire. lifted. Is, that Walsh, iiud udge Maguire I In favour of ire would not n. If he liad nent. But he ernment, hut '. differ from ■egard to the thlnlc he is a igh character, to the mem- torles. to say i Maguire Is ies, and as a f the North- I now, and I It Is in ae- Jtlce of this arllament that a statement of that kind Rlwut a Superior Court Judge should l)o read In this House unless the man who reads It Is prepared to back It up. What are the facts V To-morrow at three o'clock I win lay the papers in this case upon the Table of this House. The facta are these : There were two certificates issued by Mr. Fawcett for the same ground. Dominion Creek was staked from what they called Lower Discovery, and also from Upper DIs covery. The parties came in and applied for certllii-ates ; one was granted upon a claim Btalcod one way, and another granted on the Bame claim staked the other way. The result was that thoy overlapped. The ground be- tween the two discoveries had been exhaust- ed, they overlapped, and there were two ccrtlllcates granted for this particular claim. A protoist was entered, the maiter came be- fore Mr. Fawcett for decision. Mr. Fawcett Bald it was a complicated case, and he called In .Judge Maguire. The case was tried be- fore .Fudge Maguire in due form of law. He heard the evidence and heard counsel on both sides. Apparently there was no official irlng, because Mr. Wade was on the opposite jgide from this woman, lie was for Mr. Dc nelley in this case, and he argued it as well 8 he could. Judge Maguire gave a long nd exhaustive written judgment in favour f this woman and her partner. Mr. Faw- :ett decided the case upon Judge Magulre's ludguient, and signed it as Gold Commls- iloner. Thoy appealed the case. Mr. Don elley, apparently was in a position to fight ior his rights. The case was appealed to jipe at Ottawa. Mr. Samuel H. Blake was ji^talned to argue the case for Donnelley, and '^ see that he was not defrauded of his 'fights. I saw it was an important case, It '%as the flr.st appeal coming before me, and ■ as there were precedents to be made, and ules to be laid doAvn as to what kind of vidence should be admitted, I called In the Inister of Justice, Hon. David Mills, and e Secretary of State, Hon. Mr. Scott, two wyers of long experience, both as public en and as administrators. We heard the ase in open court in the Railway Committee oom upstairs, and the Minister of Justice, he Secretary of State and myself unanl- lously decided that Judge Maguire's judg- ent was right. I will lay the papers in this iase upon tlie Table of the House to-morrow, nd any hon. gentleman can read them for ilmself, and decide for himself. I say that member of this House can conceive of a ore outrageous accusation, a more outra- feoous proceeding than to read any such in- I^Blnuatlon as that. Why did not the hon. entlenian write a note to me to ask if there as any ground for supposing that Judge aguire had given an unrighteous decision? Surely that would not be much trouble for an ex-Minister of Justice, a man who knows his responsibility to Parliament and what Is due a judge. Surely, before making such a charge against a Judge, it would have been wise for the hon. gentleman to send a clerk to the department to look tip the papeni, to* see what the record was, to know iMmethlug about it, at least, before making such a stnteiiHHU III rile lIoUHe. But iiollilng of tliiit kind was doiii', and he reads iiu anony- mous stati'ineut from a man, which bears upon Its face. In the mind of any lawyer accustomed to read and analyse statements of facts, the plainest evidence of utter care- lessness and recklessness, because any one knowing anything about departmental busi- ness would iiuow that tlie man mailing that statenent could not have known anything about the truth of what he was alleging. Vet the member for Pictou makes that state- ment without the least analy.sis or inquiry, and places it before this House, to stand iilion " Hansard " against Judge Maguire to the last day of his life. Who can say that (he man who reads that statement upon " Hansard " ten years from now, will read my reply at the same time ? When you put sucli an allegation as that upon the " Han- sard " of the House of Commons attacking a man's character, you are doing a very serious tiling. Tlien there is another thing. We are charged with outrageously under- paying our officials, that we sent a lot of men up there and gave them starvation pay, and consequently we could not expect them to be honest. Well, Sir, here Is the list, aiid here are the salaries. I think the salaries are good. Mr. Ogllvie, the Commissioner, gets $5,000. When he was employed by the late Government, he got ?1.800. W. H. P. Clement, legal adviser, gets $2,500 ; Mr. Bliss, clerk of the Commissioner's staff, gehs $900, and his salary increases to $1,200. An- ' other clerk has .$900, another clerk $1,200. Mr. Senkler, Gold Commissioner, gets $4,000, the salary of a judge in the Court of Queen's Bench for Ontario. Then there aie a num- ber of clerks whose salaries run from $900 to $1,200. The registrar gets $2,000 ; the ab- stract clerk gets $1,200 ; the controller, Mr. Lithgow. gets $1,500 ; I think he only got $1,000 or $1,100 fomerly. Mr. Snell, a clerk In the controller's office, gets $1,200. The head land agent gets $1,800, another clerk In his office gets $1,500 ; timber inspector, $1,200 : three clerks in Crown Timber office, $900 each. The cook gets $1,200. and the assistant cook, $720. Now, be it known that the Gov- ernment furnishes for these men both quarters and provisions. The most of these men were never as well oi¥ In their lives before, financially, as they are now. I do not find fault with that ; I think they ought lo be better off than they were before, because most of them are living away from their families, and endure considerable hardship nnd privation. We h.ave made them a little better off than they were in the respective positions from which they came. There is no ground whatever for the suggestion that our officials are underpaid. Now I will prove that In this way. The officials there, the heads of the department, have hired a number of clerks in addition to the ones we sent up, and they are all getting about one- 36 I I I I I 1 ' llill Hi ii'i i*i(i ^^B,^' third less pay than the men we sent up ; so that we are paying at least one-third more than that labour Is worth In the open market In Dawson. I think that fact conclusively disposes of the charge that we underpay the officials. My 'ion. friend the member for Plctou said iliat we had treated Judge Ma- gulre abominably, that he was dreadfully Ill-used. The member for Plctou does not agree with the judge in that respect, be- cause I have In my office a letter from Judge Maguire, thanking me and thanking the Government for the great kindness and con- sideration which had been shown to him during his period of service In the Yukon district. Now, I am going to take up another wit- ness of my hon. friend the member for Plctou. It Is tedious, but we will go through the whole of t'-.em and see what their evi- dence is worth. I have gone through his statenieuc and I find something specific, something that we can get hold of, some- thing that we can check, und see what his evidence Is worth. This Is one of the anony- mous statements, and, Mr. Speaker, mark this, because one has to follow It closely in order to get at the gravamen of the charge. This man, speaking of the lease of the waver front, says : According to the terms of this lease, the leset^es did not have to pay rent to the Government for any of the water front until the same was occu- pied by their lessees, thus incurring no responsi- bility whatever. Of course, if an officer of the Government had made a lease of that kind he would either be a fool or a knave ; there is no doubt about that. There could not be the least question about that ; he would be either a fool cr a knave, because to put himself under contract to somebody else, without payment being provided for until the rent is collected, would not be a busi- ness transaction, and he would be either a fool or knave. Perhaps that language is too strong, but ;t would not be a business- like transaction. But, Mr. Speaker, there is not a word of truth in It. The papers are here ; I will lay them on the Table of the House, and the lease is there. The lease is by letter, and there Is not a soli- tary word of truth in the statement. I can- not take all the statements that these men ma^e ; of course there are many that are mere flourishes, mere diatribes—" Mall and Empire" editorials and Ottawn "Citizen" editorials ; but here and there we come across a statement that we can get hold of. Of course, we cannot check them all ; I have not the Information, but I have the Information to check some of them, and I am bound to say that In regard to any of them in which I have the papers I am in a position to show that thev are uuirue. This same unnamed gentleman who made that statement which was shown to be untrue, says that he Is Informed that Mr. Wade re- ceived $1,500 for giving somebody— he does not say whom— the exclusive privilege of maintaining a booth in the Klondlko Hel says that he was so Informed. 'J .e man who makes this statement is the man who makes the statement that I have shown to b« absolutely untrue. Of course we are unable to check his statement that he was Informed by somebody else whose name was not given i tlJat Mr. Wade was bribed. But I would like to ask my hon. friend who is going to follow me, the member for Halifax (Mr. Borden),' what Importance he would attach to evi- dence of that kind. There is another witness, Mr. Wood- worth. Mr. Woodworth writes a long I letter; he does not deal in specific state- ments, there is nothing that one can get hold of definitely, but he is very violent in his abuse of me and generally of the] policy of the Government. The hon. mem- ber for Plctou was not In a position to give] any Information as to who Mr. Wood- worth was, and apparently he had not taken any trouble to Inquire. He just brings in Mr. Woodworth's letter and resd: it, apparently without making any inquiry as to whether this man was a reliable man or a man of character or repute. I think that when an hon. gentleman comes in and asks Parliament to act upon the statement of somebody, he ought to take some little pains to find out what kind of a man It is whom he cites as his authority. He has given us the statements of a lot of men whose names he has not mentioned, and he wants us to take their statements because he says he made inquiry and found them to be reliable. Now, we have a man here whose name is given, and I am going to give the result of the Inquiry which I have made as to whether this man Is re- lialile or not. I find one statement here, and I want to call the attention of the House to the fact that this gentleman Is a lawyer, and In speaking about a legal matter, he cannot be excused for not tell- ing what Is true. We will check up this gentleman ; we will check up his reliabillt.T on a question of fact, and see what his evidence is worth. The acknowledged method of dealing with a witness is to tflke his statements one by one and see whether what he tells is true or not. We have not time to check up all this gentleman's state- ments one by one, but I have them here, Of course, he calls our officials Inefficient but this Is a matter of opinion ; it Is not a question of fact. He says : A Mr. Thlell— The name is Snell ; he Is the clerk of the court, and Thlell Is apparently a misprint. Is clerk of the court, tut, being without legal training, he Is Incompetent to take exami- nations, tax costs and do all that is required ot a clerk of court- There Is a straight statement that a man who Is clerk of the court is not efficient. Now, I have here an application from Mr. Snell, who is the same man, to Mr. Ogilvie, that he might be permanently appointed m M !^l/itl^ wnimvm 37 Klondlko HjI ned. '1 .e uiaol Is the man who! lave shown to b(| e we are unable I tie was informed! le was not given But I would like ) going to follow X (Mr. Borden), I attach to evl- ss, Mr. Wood- writes a long 1 specific state- it one can get is very violent euerally of the The hon. mem- position to give Uo Mr. Wood- y he had not aire. He just etter and r^fld: ng any inquiry a reliable man jpute. I think Q comes In and I the statement nke some little 3 of a man It luthority. Hu ts of a lot of not mentioned, leir statements uiry and found ve have a man nd I am going quiry which I lis man Is re- tatement hero. tention of the gentleman Is about a legal d for not tell- check up this his reliability | see what his " acknowledged ness is to take d see whether We have not tleman's state- re them here, lals inefficient ion ; It is not ! clerk of the ' a misprint. being without to take exami- is required of that a man not efficient. ion from Mr. Mr. Ogilvle, appointed m *4*' [Clerk of the court, a position, according to iMr. W^oodworth, he is not fit to fill, and fwhlch he is filling. This application to iMr. Ogilvle has been forwarded to me, •and lit is accompanied by a copy sent by Mr. [Ogllvie to me, of the following certificate :— We, the undersigned members of the Bar of the [Territorial Court of the Yukon Territory, beg to 'recommend Mr. W. H. Snell for the position [of territorial clerk. Mr. Snell has flUed this Iposition most acceptably for some months padt, land we most heartily and cordially endorse his lappllcatlop. This is signed by a whole list of the mem- [bers of the bar from Dawson City, amongst lothers, Mr. C. W. 0. Tabor, a well-known IConaervative gentlem.nn, known, no doubt, |to some men in tho House ; and signed imongst others— unfortunately for the mem- Iber for Pictou— by Mr. Arthur G. Smith, pate Deputy Attorney General of British Mumbia, and now* I am informed, a part- ler of the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tuppiir). Some hon. MEMBERS. Oh. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR r. Sifton). Later on, we have a lengthy Indictment of the whole administration of e district, and everything, f:om first to jiast, is outrageously wrong, according to -this gentleman. The name is not given, but ■""t is said by the hon. member for Pictou ;Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) that this geu- tleman writes what is called an official letter |a a business way, and that is what is quoted as nn abstract from this business letter. I ; will not bother the House by reading it, but I Jiust say to this House, that if any man in this House will read that letter, he must conclude that the reason why this man wrote that letter was because he was dis- satisfied with the royalty. That was the j>nly reason why he wrote it ; the letter iroves that ; it is thft burden of his song Ihroughout. This gentleman attacks vici- ously the administration. Will the House elieve that this general diatribe against e administration, in which Major Wa!sh denounced as a fraud, was written on the 4th of June, only twenty-three days aftpr 'lajor Walsh got to Dawson City ? Of hat value can that be as a criticism of the ministration of Major Walsh ? ^ Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Do I understand 'the hon. Minister to say, that Mr. Wood- Worth's letter was dated in June ? ' The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR (Mr. Sifton). Not Mr. Woodworth's letter ; I s'ot through with that. I was speaking of the letter which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden) will see quoted in the speech as having been written by a gentleman on offi- cial business ; the name is not given. Mr. Borden (Halifax). What page of " Hansard " 7 The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Sifton). The hon. gentleman will find the date given by the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) as the 14th of June, at page 824 of the "Hansard." As I said, that is twenty-three days after Major Walsh got in. He would hardly have had time to recover from the fatigues of his journey and look around the town and see what was going on. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have got through the list of witnesses, ii they can be called such, that the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tupper) has presented to 'his House. I have not been able to check all the statements that he made, but it will be noticed that one witness repeats much the same thing, as did another In re- gard to certain things. Then, there are gen- eral paragraphs of denunciation, which we cannot check, and which we have no means of finding out anything about, as they are mere statements of opinion. I have gone through these statements, and I have picked out the specific statements where I had any means of checking up the accura''5 of the witnesses, and. Sir, I have shown that, in every ^ase where I have had any means of checking the accuracy, the statements are wrong and totally unfounded. I venture now to say, that the oldecrt member of this House will have difficulty in finding any speech that has ever been placed before the House of Commons of Canada in which statements were placed before the House for the purpose ci influencing the House, where so msiiiy of the statements have been found to be totally untrue. There are three or four cases which I have no means of knowing anything about : cases in which it is said men or women had to give an in- terest to officials to get their claims record- ed. All I have to say is. that if the hon, gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) h.ad had the least desi'"e to have these matters in- vestigated, to ha^'e Parliament Informed of the facts— not by mere ex-parte anonymous charges— but if he had the desire that Par- liament should know whether these things were true or not, why did he not write a letter to Mi*. Ogllvie, when my deputy wrote to him, asking him to send the information. If he had it, so that it might be within, our power to investigate it If he could not trust me, if he could not trust the right hon. the Prime Minister, if he could not trust Mr. Ogilvle, for fear Mr. Ogilvle might suppress it, why did not the hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) writo to one of the two or three private detectives which he has In Dawson City, and in two or three weeics we would have a report, and we would not be talking about hearsay, ou which we can form no opinion as to whether there is any foundation for it or not. Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention one mat- ter. Mr. Woodworth wrote a long letter. I hesitate to attack anybody's character, and I am not going to attack Mr. Wood- worth's character ; but the hon. mem- ber for Pl.-tou (Sir Chpries Hlbbert Tupper) has brought to this House a statement sign- ed by Mr. Woodworth, In which Mr. Wood- li H ;i i ; li'li < i 88 . lev- • r. ■ worth makes unguaJ'fied attacks upon the character of men who have hitherto had a good character. It was due to this House that the lion, member for PicLuU (Sir Charles Hlbbert Tuppor) should have inquired into the character of Mr. ^oodworth and his re- liabiilty and credibility, before he read the letter, aud it was due to the Government, and it was due lo our officlais, that I should make some inquiries .^nd inform the House as well as I can as to what is known of this gentleman. Well, I have not been able to find out much. I communicated with the hon. member for Yale and Cariboo (Mr. Bostock), in whose constituency Mr. Woodworth lived and practised before he left for Dawson. Mr. Bostock telegraiphed to Mr. W. Tomlin- eon, of New Denver, as fellows :— What was C. M. Woodworth's reputation when at Denver ? And tlie reply came : 3rd April, 1899. Hewitt Bostock, M.P., Ottawa. Not good ; very ordinary ; doubtful material. WM. TOMLINSON. Now, of course, we ought to know about Mr. Tomlinson, as to whether his statement is good or not. And this is what is said about him : " Mr. Tomlinson is a man for- merly in the British Army, and for some years back a respected citizen of New Den- ver. Mr. Bostock has known him several years, and will certify to his character ; and the message was sent in order that it might be read in Parliament." I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, I am tirlug the House. Some hon. MEMBERS. Go on. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Mr. Sifton). Now, Sir, I have detailed the appointments which we made, and I think I have justified the Government in the action they took in making the various appoint- ments. I have shown, I thinl"-, to the satis- factiou, not only of members on this side of the House, but— if we could look into their heartf lo most of the members on the other side of the Flouse, that there was no derelic- tion of duty on tlie part of the Government in making t'aese appointments ; and then I ligation. To attempt to hold an Investigation M lion nobody would make a charge is an px- tramelj unsatisfactory and futile thing ; and the investigation at Dawson City piiuiises to be futile, though charges have been made, lieoause the people who have made them have apparently withdrawn them and will not go before the commissioner and attompr to prove them. When we had a ooiniiils- sloiiiT in whom we had perfect confide.ice, and had not an opportunity to consult him, aud when nobody had made anytliing in the nature of a specific charge, I tliink tk House will say that the Government was cei'tainly not blamable for not having ucted sooner. Miss Shaw's letter in the " Times " came up. It has been said that we ought to Lave acted instantaneously when that letter ap- peared. I may be wrong, but I do not take that view. The letter may perhaps have been more injurious to the Government poli- tically because it appeared in the "Times": out 1 could sec no difference between a state- niont made by Miss Shaw and sustained liy no particular evidence— in fact, by no cvl- doiice— and a stateuinit made by any other newspaper correspondent, and backed by no evidence. After the letter, of Miss S'law ap- peared, the miners' complaint, whlcli the hon. member for Pictou read, came out ; and tiicn Instantly, as soo' as anything in the nature of a complaint was made to the Gov- ernment, the Government acted. Mr. Ogiivie was notified to proceed with an Investigation. A commission was issued to him, and he was notified that the most ample notice must be given to everybody. I have read the notice issued by Mr. Ogiivie. inviting the people of Dawson City .ind llie Yukon district to come foi'ward and make any complaints tlie.v had to make. Here is the letter I wrote to Mr. Ogiivie, acompanying the commission, and cont^fnin.g his instructions : Ottawa, 10th October, 1898. Dear felr, — You will receive herewith a com- Mission to Investi.gate charges which have been made by a. miners' committee against the admin- istration of Governmental affairs In the Yulton district. This commission has been issued ia (onsequenre of the receipt of a formal com- IJlaint, a "opy of which is attached to the com- attempvod to analyse, as well as I could the "''^'^'"d- ^°^ will at once proceed upon receipt evidence whi^h the hon member for Pioton °^ ^^^ commission with the investigation, and (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) has placed be- f"" ^"f ^"thorized to notify the persom who foro the Hon^P Nnw who,. nVfnli, »<-'-, liave signed the petition, wherever possible, of n-ide on tbP ^^min^^tT^n ■ '^V*^^''^ ""'^''^ "'« "•"« "'"^ P'«''° ''^'^ "^en the inquiry will be n aae on tne adminlst'-ation— is t'le Govern- I opened. merit blamable because It did not «,>,i, sooner, I Your legal adviser, Mr. Clement, will give you or Is the Government blamable for not hav- ' '''"y Professlo.ial assistance that may be required ing taken the proper course to have an in- I'" '^''^ Inv^esticration. You will unr'^rstand tliat quiry made in regard to this matter '' ' '"''^ P''''®°" ^''^ 's charged with malfeasance of I affirm, Mr. Speaker— and I think imn ! "I*^? PI "^f*'"^" of any '«'nd against the proper members of tlm HnnL -.^ti i, .♦, ' 'i'l'"ln's"'atloR of the law in any department i! tht notnt thnf nnfu ;, J ''^ Z^^^ '""^ ""^ i '^"*'"^''' ^^^"'^ "^° ''"'''"K "' t^e charges, to missVoner Afnlnr will'?'' '■''^'™ °^ .""■' ^O'"- n ". S"""' '''' ^^^ vaHic.u\a.vs of the charge, so missioner. Major Walsh, who was known to ^''at he can prc^pare himself to meet the charge!.' lie on the way, and until something in the '"'' "*' desires. nature of a specific statement that v,-o could take hold of was made, it would have been extremely unwise on the part of the Gov- ernment to have attempted to hold an inves- .\3 to employment of counsel, I will leave you to exercise your own Judgment, merely renark- Ing that If the persons preferring the charp i do sire to appear by counsel I see no obJe» vicn to such course being followed. In such ca jes, of ■i 39 an investigation charge Is an pj. itile thing ; and Olty I'l'tuiises cave been made, ve made them them and will ler and atlompr had a ooiiiinls- feet confido,\ce, to consult blm,' ie anything ia ge, I thinic tbe )vernment was >t liaving iicted " Times " came ! ! ought to Lave that letter ap- it I do not take perhaps have avernment poil- the " Times " : tetween a state- d sustained by ict, by no cri- i by any other 1 baclied by uo Miss Shavf ap- nt, whlcli the came out ; and aything in the ide to the (4ot- ^d. Mr. Ogilvie a investigation, im, and Le was notice must be •ead the nodce ? the people of con district to omplaints tlie.T ter I verote to 10 commission, IS : October, 1898. erewith a com- 'hich have been linst the adinin- i in the Yulfon been issued In a formal corn- ed to the corn- ed upon receipt 'estigatlon, and le person'] who :er possible, ot Inquiry will be t, will give you lay be required mr'^rstand tliat malfeasance of Inst the proper department is he charges, to the charge, so et the charge !! will leave you nerely renark- he oiiarp i <'-; 10 obJevMon to such cajes, of jurse, any accused persons who desire to appear |y , ouQsel will have a similar privilege. ;It Is the desire ot the Government that the ivestigation should be thorough and complete, ad that each and every charge that has been iiade In the mine;-s' petition should be thor- »ghly Investigated, and that you should make definite raport, giving your tlnding< upon the vidence submitted In support of each charge, re- iirnlng your report along with a copy of the Evidence. It is absolutely necessary that your report Ihould be In my hands befove the meeting of parliament, and I shall therefore expect you to end it out by special messenger, If necess&ry, soon as the Ice Is In condition to permit of |ravel southward from Cawson City. Phat is the course which the Government jok in connection with the investigation. I jiiive no report as yet if the lesult. The pewspapers contain some reports more or Rss reliable, I have a preliminary note from [r. Ogilvle, saying that the report would be jrwarded in a short time, and tlien I will ly It on the Table, and the House will know IS roil h ^I'out it as I. Now, ""^1. .Hpi^aker, I come to another mat- ie^ . I - X shall be within the judgment ^t • w^hen I say that the House was Uti 'iii'iv pained by the references which rei-e made to Major Walsh in the speech of le lion, member for Pictou. Whether the ^on. member conceived that tnose statements fere true or not, the manner in which they fere made was certainly most objectionable. sent word to Major Waish at once that iese statements had bsen made ; T told him tiat I thought he ought to come to Ottawa id see the official report of the speech made the hon. member for Pictou. He came (ince, and I gave him the report of the Bech. Ue went away and examined it, ^d then wrote the following letter :— jrhil Ottawa, 3rd April, 1899. Dear Sir, — I have read Sir Hibbert Tupper's nak-ds charges against the lU.s in the Yukon district .. ;; Commissioner. \l i;i\ xses against my ohar- • ■ «re concerned, I defy fi/- .Ish a single particle I ■ ,;y^nrt of any one of ; til .)roduce any person . «peoch, in wliich he .*dniinistratlou of ^^i e I was Gover ■ So far as the ;i" " iter and adiiv U '■ r Hibbert Tu h- reliable evldtuc em. I further defy ho ever saw mo undfe. i' . influence ot liquor, ilither in the iTukon or au>wliere else. While In the Yukon I abstained from the use ot spirits ,nd also tobacco, and my other habits conformed every v. ay to this abstemious course. During stay in Dawson I lived lii a tent surrounded part of tht staff and a large number of pers. My time was entirely taken up with bile business, either in my office or In my tent. 9 o'clock '.n the morning I walked to my ce, at noon returned to my tent, at 1.30 p.m. jJ^fain went tc the ofHce, and at 5 p.m. returned j^ 'le tent. ■, \> was my daily routine, so that I ^«' ed thro<'; • ar streets of Dawson four times ery day, S.'i > pxi'^pted Every day but Sun- ,y I coMld b' ■■ , ■. ai).v person who had busl- Bess with me, e .^;j,;, ibac, of course, people had to take their turn In securing Interviews. Dur- fjg my s^ay in Dawson I only left my camp fter 6 p.m. three times. While I was In Daw- V It was almost continuous daylight, and my ■ was under full view of every one. Eyerybody could see what was going on. My evenings were generally taken iip with people calling to obtain Information. I defy any one to truthfully say that any improper act ever took place lA my camp. I challenge and defy any person to prove me guilty of any Improper act In either my public or private life during my period ot service In tha Yukon, or of dealing in or having any Jntersst in any mines or Government property of any kind. « I engaged with the Government, as you know, to go to tbe Yukoqi for one year only, although my commission did not so state. That was my understanding with you. During that time I accomplished all tht-t I expected and hoped to be able to do. i laboured earnestly and conscientiously to the best of my ability to do my duty to the Government, and returned at the end of the time, bringing nothing except the consciousness ot having done my best to perform a difficult -and trying duty. I close by repeating that I defy Sir Hibbert Tapper, or auybody else, to prove that while I was in the Yukon territory, I was ever under the Influence of Manor or was ever guilty of a single act of Immoiv'Uy. ^ have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, J. M. WALSH. Sir, the newspapers liave been filled with interviews condemnatory of the Yukon ad- ministration. I am not going to go through and examine them, but I am going to point out one or two things that have happened in that connection which will perhaps indicate to some extent the reason why those inter- views were so plentiful and so lurid in their character. One interview of which the most is made was an interview by Captain. Con- frtantine, who was formerly in comnand of the police in the district under tlie L.te Gov- ernment, and for some time under this Gov- ernment. I think I know Captalu Constan- tino better than any man on the other side. I havj known him for seventeen or eighteen years. Ho is a good offloer. who. I do not think, would do anything contrary to law, and am certain he is a reliable, faithful oti'cer. He came out from the Yukon dis- trict, and an interview witli him was pub- lished of a most violent condemnatory kind with regard to the administration, and much wns made of that Interview. And if it had been a genuine interview, the testimony of Captiiin Constantino would be testimony to \Ahich a great deal of cr?dlt should lie at- tached. But Captain Constantino repudiates the whole in'-erview. I will give you another illustration. T^jiere wer.; two men ii; the city the othe:* day named Deville i^nd Mangold. There iii/,;cared an. interview in a newspaper in which they condemnetl thft administrntion in the Yukon district ; but I have a letter from their solicitor, in whicii they say that they were never Interviewed at all. but that a drunken reporter— a drunken reporter, mark you, Mr. Speaker— followed them on the streets to their solicitor's office and v/as ejected from the office, and then wrote this interview condemning the Govern- ment. This letter is from Mr. Latchford. a re- spected and well known solicitor in this city. I nm not going to take up the time of 40 I ii the House much longer, but I have one more thing to mention. I have a lot of interviews from different people— not the kind that hail been so largely' circulated by the Opposition press— which explains many things ; but as the members of this House have doubtless read them, there is no use in my wasting your time by bringing befctf.-e you matters that are after all mere matters of opinion. But I am going to read to you from a very important document, an official report which has Just been made by Mr. A. N. C.Treadgoid, M.A., of Oxford University, who was sent out by the " Mining Journal," of London, as its correspondent for the purpose of mak- ing a careful and exhaustive investigation of the district. I saw him when he went out and after he came back. He called at the office in a social way for the purpose of say- ing a few words and offering information as to what was going on there. He Is not an applicant for any concessions from this Gov- ernment, in any shape or form, directly or indirectly. He is not a man with whom any member of tills Government has any con- nection or over whom any member of this Government has any influence ; but he Is a man of first-class character and high scien- tlflc attainments, who was sent out there on account of special qualifications and for tlie purpose of making an Independent re- port to the " Mining Journal," of London. All he says is not favourable to the Govern- meat, but that is the better evidence that his report is honest and not coloured ; and 1 think It will perhaps give the House the best Idea of the state of affairs and explain the different things that have happened in that district better than anything that could possibly be read, because the report is ab- solutely reliable. This Is the part of the re- port that refers to the Administration. Mr. Treadgold says : This Ic not a political pamphlet, but a 'report of (acts observed during my stay In the Yukon, anif but for the importance to capital and labour of all questions concerning the administration of the Yulcon, I should not dwell on the subject. In general, it is sufficient for miners to know that the Government at Ottawa has shown all willing- ness to learn all it could about the new and fur- ther North-west, that In consequence the admin- istration of the Yukon has steadily improved this summer, In spite of serious necessary dlfflcultles. Any Government which proposed suddenly to Impose upon a new country, peopled by mixed immigrants, a full civil organization v/ould need an impossibly excellent set of officials to steer It through its first year or two. How much more Is this true of a new country like the Klondike, whoso population is split into so many diverse groups with conflicting interests. In one point alone do all men agree in the Klondike— the de- sire to possess one or many of the great prizes there offered to the individual ; and from this desire spring the bitterest differences ; for the great prizes are not for all, and A's gain is B's loss, If he chooses so to regard It, even in claim- hunting. I am going to read the whole so that I can- not be accused of leaving out any part be- cause possibly less favourable to the Afl- mlnlstratlon. Let ua separate some of the groups and inter- ests in order that what I may call the bases ot argument may be clearer for future discuBaio:? of the Yukon administration. We shall And In 'Jxo Dawson camp tolerably clearly defined — 1. The old-timers, used in the past to feQ-.ern themselves, largely Americans, Inclined to regard the incoming Canadian civil organization as need- less, yet seldom heard on any sublect save roy- alty ; on that eloquent as oa other " crown re- servations." Even among old-timers it was possible to trace a clear division between such as were able or forced to reside in Dawson (mine owners and saloon owners — the same man is often both) and the miners at work on the creeks, '.he latter al- ways suspecting the former of getting official knowledge of new finds earlier than themselves, and ready to make a grievance of a mere sus- picion. 2. The chechakos or new-comers of this year, all of course chagrined to find that tiie officials a-"! old-timers had not reserved a claim for each \<\-^ 20 000 on the best part of Eldorado or Dv. ' -ut, except for this fact, easy to dis- tlngr — (a.) . "Hans, excellent fellows and good miners, . A to laws of their own, and not al- ways liking to have to obey the Canadian laws, complaining for some time because " they had not been told that the Klondike was mostly staked out," but after a time settling down to work, pushing further afield and doing well : (b.) British Columbians, also accustomed to laws of their own, convinced that the Yukon ought to figure as part of British Columbia, the mining province of the Dominion ; yet I never heard one of them suggest that Yukon claims (250 feet) should be reduced to the length ot British Columbian claims (100 feet) ; (c.) Genuine miners, of whatever nationality, In considerable numbers with genuine grievances, partly remediable, partly not ; (d.) A crowd of professional men and traders and " superior persons," all wanting claims, and expecting from the officials special facilities for acquiring claims. Some of them had been for- bidden to practise law or medicine without Can- adian diplomas. Many were adepts at "skinning" a new country, and hated to find that concessions from Ottawa barred their way in tneir quest for timber, firewood, hay, and rights of various kinds, as for telephones, ferries, <6-c. (e.) Scum of all classes and trades and nations, ready to do or say anything for dollars, and for the privilege to loaf at Dawson, especially dan- gerous to the newspaper correspondent, whom they frequently beguiled with their loud-voiced complaint that there was nothing left for the " free miner," and that the officials kept all for themselves, &c., &o., " that the poor men had r.o chance of getting his letter or his record of a claim," &c., &c. A perusal of the above will show how plentiful a crop of grievances could be collc^tod by a cor- respondent with an appetite for the garbage of a mining camp, and without that power of fper- spective which is so necessary and yet so difficult to exercise In hurried letter-writing. I think that every correspondent who wrote upon " Yukon grievances " and " Yukon scandals " would pro- bably write differently if he were asked to write again on the same subject. For it Is beyond question that " grievances " and " scandals " were made on the outside to assume an Import- ance which they never possessed in the Klondike Itself. Tf I review the facts of the situation briefly, it is because I think such a review will be useful for the future ; only time and wise 41 d'Ollberation are needed utterly to do away with the genuine grievances ot the Klondike. These are what he says are genuine griev- ances. 1. Unequal taxation (the miner pays nearly all the taxes). — He was easiest to tax ; money was wanted ; for the rest of Canada would not conBAot- to the Yukon's BUI, «»~1m- was taxed — ^tUe trader eaoooes tn inios{.$aMS. /.U^ ^.ytiJi^'iol'tmtijjtcityot claim records (imay j«lfaiiM^l^ll<i»r^M^ to Me what claims hA^ MSen tvloMadS in tha district, and that with «a little delay' aa possible. 3. Want of surveyors (the miner has to wait too long to have his claim surveyed — it is ques- tionable whether the miner ought to hav.~) to pay the surveyor his fee, in case of a dispute alxiut boundaries, or whether the recording fee ought not to carry with it the right to an accurate survey free of charge). The hon. member for York has a clear opi- nion on that subject. 4. Certain obvious defects in the mining laws (see under " Mining Laws "). All these are matters of policy to be worked up when we hav^ a little better knowledge of the country. 5. Want of roads (see under " The Law of Re- presentation "). 6. Want of adequate mail service and service delivery of mail (it is impossible to provide fully for such a vast crowd, but the post office was needlessly slow). 7. Want of recording officials on every creek (this would keep the crowd scattered and fore- stall the genuine grievance ot the stakers who had to trudge so many miles to Dawson from every part of the Klondike to record claims). This is a formidable list of grievances, and it has been duly Insisted upon, and of course ex- aggerated by most critics. A glance at the list reveals the need of time and of a whole army of trained officials, with an unlimited purse, to do away with thi^e grievances. As yet there has been no time, the rush of adventurers to the north passed the calculations ot all those most likely to know ; nobody believed tnat a crowd ot 25,000 would make its way to the Yukon by mid-June of 1898 ; all the season there has been : a steady influx of new officials ; but It would be [idle to suppose that laws or officials can be satis- 1 factory ior some time. Canada in general is lo^ly just beginning to mine, and she oenalnly I has no tmlned body of mining officials from ; which she could have sent a complete and effl- IcientstafC to.egulatein one season a huge placer " mining camp like the Klondike. It is the rapid [growth of the camp (from upwards of 5,000 souls [in 1S97 to upwards of 30,000 in 1898) that passes |belief and creates suddenly a volume of business jln Dawson City hard f "^r any officials to cope with, Bpeoially for such as have to learn their busi- ness, to some extent as they go on. Canada as fet has no separate department of mines. She deeds a department of mines, in close touch with the Geological Survey Department. The weak spot In the early history of the Klondike is the want at Ottawa of accurate information derived from competent j-'""logi8ts ; but I ought, at the same time, to add that Dawson camp is not yet jtwo years old to the outside world. Failing in Imccurate knowledge of the richness of the Klon- tdlke deposits, all Government action at Ottawa Ihas been speculative and hampered with the fear •that other provinces of Canada might be com- Hon O &-4 pelled to and might not care to pay the bill for the development of the Yukon. This season two of the best Canadian geologists were sent to inspect the Klondike, and their reports will furnish new and reliable data for future action of the Government. In the above list of Yukon grievances, two stand out, pot as being more important than the rest, "but a* being easier t* remedy quickly. ' t. Difficulty of rpconlUic cVUoi* aud of gettlig ?'^i know what Claims have been recorded. 2. difficulty connected with the distribution et the mail. I just interpolate here that I am satisfied, from my information from Dawson City, that both these diiBculties have now been re- medied and that .there is no grievance in re- gard to either of them. These same difficulties must always occur in new placer camps in intensity proportionate t« the size of the camp, but the Dawson authorities showed singular inability to improve the record office and the post office. At best they were botli very slow Indeed, and the miner who consented to accommodate himself to their methods had te put up with great inconvenience and great loss of time. It is not too much to say that the in- efficiency of these two offices was to blamo for the loud talk on the outside as well las in the Klondike about '■ official corruption." Now, will the House mark this : Such talk is puerile where the character of men like Major Walsh and Mr. Thos. Fawcett is in question. There Is not a man living who dare openly suggest that either of them was corrupt. At the same time, undoubted evils went long un- retorraed at the record office, and the Yukon miner, seeing no sufficient reason for continued inefficiency, began to suspect and even whisper " corruption," which he could never prove, to me at any rate, either in the Klondike or, later on, at Ottawa. Personally I saw but little that can- not very easily be made smooth by a telegraph wire to Ottawa, and a few changes In the mining law ; the telegraph wire will do much more fer the Klondike than will thj incorporation of Daw- son City, good though that also may be in due time. For all business purposes the Yukon re- mains still quite cut off from the central Govi^rm- ment at Ottawa, In harmful isolation so far as movement of capital into it is desirea. The building ot the telegraph line is the first and easiest step by which the Government can foster the mining interests of a country that will amply repay it for all its care. That is the best and most Impartial view •f the situation I can give to the House. It is written by a man who knows the ground, who is making a scientiOc report for the " Mining JouraaJ " and making It under this knowledge— and this should be marked— that if in any respect the accuracy of his report can be impeached, his reputation Is gone. Thei-efore, the House may place absolute con- fidence in his statement. It is riot all favour- able, but It shows that exactly what I have said is true. There had been grievances, but ihey could not be avoided or removed earlier, because it was necessary to have skilled men to deal with the matter, and we could not get them at once. We have sent men in there and we are getting things into shape as fatt as we can. . ^ 42 m Now, Mr. Speaker, I am soiTy I have de- tained the House so long, but I bave a few words to say In conclusion. Let me point out that the work of the Government in connec- tion with the Klondike district commenced la 1897. Practically our work commenced there when our officials got In. The first of them got In about Febmary, 1898. Major Walsh was the only man who had any real authority to do anj thing, and he got In there on the 21st of May last. All that has hap- pened In regard to which there has been unj discussion has practically taken place since the ice went out of the Yukon River last spring, about ten months ago. What have we done in that time ? We have taken over a country flooded by men of the most diverse character from all over the western country and the Pacific slope. It has been said that that country has been a by-word for official corruption. They forget to siiy that country has been a by-word with every man who has ever been in a mining camp for the perfect preservation of law and order under the most trying difficulties. There has been no crime unpunished, there has been no disorder, there has been no riot- ing. A New York lady who had t)een there, calling in my office not long since, told me that she felt safer in her tent on the trail any where in the Yukon than she did In her residence in the city of New York. Sir, is that nothing to say on behalf of the men who have done this work ? I think that it is something to the credit of the Dominion of Canada, and to the men who have gone through the arduous labour which they were called upon to do. Our men have gone there, they have struggled hard, they are struggling hard now with the initial difficulties of overcoming all these things which have to be overcome, of learn- ing those mattters which have to be learned and pr^r^erly studied out ia order that they ma^ . • .ble to deal with the peculiar cir- cumstances of a peculiar situation. We have established a government there, we have put a local government in operation, of a bureaucratic character, it is true, but of that character because it is the only kind of government applicable to that coun- try until we know more about it, and the population is more settled. That govern- ment is at work. I have read you a list of the operations of the Oouncll, showing that they are going Into all the details of administration, that they are trying to take care of the peo- ple and meet their wants, and administer the affairs of that district in a business- like and a proper way. The affairs of gov- ernment are on a proper footing. Build- ing accommodation has been found for our ' police force. From Lake Bennett to Daw- son City a man can now go over the ice without spending a night out of doors, a great difference between this and last year. When Major WalsU and myself were at ' Lake Bennett there was not a single post I between that point and Dawson City. But ! at present there is a line of posts stretclilng through the whole district, under Canadian and British authority, so that there is no possibility of any man's life or property being in danger. Now, what have we to- day ? We have permanent puMic build- ings that could not have been expected to be put up last year. There is regular trans- portation by which proper materials for buildings can be carried In. We have roads to build, and some stretches have been built already of the most immediate necessity. We could not take an appro- priation last year for the reason that we did not have information which would en- able us to decide where the roads ought to be built If we had had the money last year we would not have spent it, because we did not know exactly where the roads ought to be made, and for fear of wasting the money we should not have undertaken to expend any. We propose to ask Par- liament this year for an appropriation to build a telegraph line ; we propose to ask for an appropriation for a road ; and I be- lieve that seven or eight months from to- day, when next season closes, the Yukon district will be under a regular and proper administration of law such as will satisfy the requirements of the people of the dis- trict, and such as would serve for any pro- vince in the Dominion of Canada. One word more. I ought not to sit down with- out referring to the fact that throughout the sp,;ech of tlie hon. gentleman there has been a continuous trend of suggestions that there was some improper or corrupt connec- tion between myself or sonte member or members of the Government with the Klon- dike district. I want to say that I challenge the hon. gentleman, the leader of the Oppo- sition, I challenge the member;: of his party in this House, I challenge the l^ Jibers of his party outside this House, I challenge the press of his party, to produce their private detectives, to come here upon their respon- sibility and press their charge ; I challenge the member for Pictou or any man in this House, to lay upon the Table of the House the charges that he has to make, and de- clare his ability to substantiate them by evi- dence, and he will get his investigation, and I will be able to convince the hon. gentleman who makes that charge that discretion on his part would have been the better part of valour. ' ' ; : y' I t