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-2. 
 
 Ottseo((ft0i«m0ns §tMm 
 
 FOURTH SESSION. FlFtH PAtlLIAMENT.-49 VIC. 
 
 SPEECH OF HON. E. BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 OM' THE 
 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Resolution. 
 
 OTTAWA, APEIL 29i- 1886, 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that tbeae pro- 
 pmals ahonld havo been laid before the Hoase, bat I cannot 
 say I am surprised, for I never believed that the loan which 
 the Government invited us to contribute to the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway wocld he paid in full. I feared that their 
 promises, whitsh they made in 1884, would be broken. I 
 snspeeted that preparatk>ns were being taade for the break- 
 ing cf them in 1886 ; and my fears of 1881 and my suspi- 
 cions of 1885 are realised to-night in 1886. What is the 
 nature of the proposals before us? The Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Company's shareholders have paid into that com- 
 pany $29,500,000 for their stock. At the recent prices of 
 that stock, prices which prevailed within a short period, 
 though they may not be the prices of the moment, it wa^ 
 worth in the market about $43,500,000. That is an advance 
 of $13,000,000 or 44 per cent, upon the average price which 
 the company themselves realised for the stock. Thus, for 
 each $100 which the shareholders paid into the company 
 they can get on the market $144 at recent prices, and in 
 addition they have received very large dividends upon their 
 investment, from the time that investment was made up to 
 the present time. That is the financial position of the com- 
 pany's stockholders in whose favor we are asked to 
 make this arrangement today. Only two years ago 
 we loaned that company an enormous sum of money, 
 about $30,000,000, the greater proportion of which was 
 practically loaned them in order to secure their own divi- 
 dends. That was the purpose of more than half the loan . They 
 were to repay us this money, both that which was to secure 
 their dividends and that which was to be used in the work, 
 with interest at 5 per cent. That was the bargain of two 
 years ago. And now we are asked to give up our claim to 
 the repayment of ten millions of this money, to add ten 
 millions to our net dobi, to add over 1400,000 a year to our 
 
 interest charge in order to relieve these shareholders from 
 the payment of that $400,000 a year, with which they are 
 onerated, a^Jiough under the less advantageous arrangement 
 of 1885, onerated in a manner inferior to that under the 
 original arrangements. It is proposed in elTect to add 
 $400,000 to the profits of the shareholders of that company, 
 and the taxpayers of Canada are asked to accomplish this 
 result. The company in the announcement they made on 
 the recent issue of the balance of the $36,000,000 of their de> 
 benture debt, declared that notwithstanding the disadvan- 
 tages under which they labored through the non completion 
 of the system, they have earned a net profit over 
 the fixed charges of it 100,000 last year. The fixed charges 
 '.nclude the payment of interest, include the interest on the 
 Government debt, and therefore it is proposed to add 
 $400,000 to the sum of the net profits already realised by 
 the company. Now, it in to be remembered that the com- 
 pany and the Government declared that the die . mection, 
 the non completion of the syotem is a great obstacle to the 
 creation of more profits. I know they told us other stories 
 in former times, but of late years this has been their story, 
 and they say that on its completion it will become an 
 immediately profitable enterprise. The First Minister 
 declared, in h's place in Parliament, that the ends of the 
 road would be the most profitable, that that had been 
 demonetrated, and therefore it is an enterprise of this 
 description which is to make such vast profits, which is now 
 on the eve of completion — sometimes we are told it is fin- 
 ished, sometimes that it is ju4t about finibhed, and sometimes 
 hon. gentlemen tell us, when occasion requires, that it will 
 cost a great deal more to finish it, and that we must 
 enlarge the capital account for that purpose — but just 
 about finished, we will say, and therefore ready to 
 enter on its career of large profits ; it is with refer- 
 
ence to that enterpriso that the taxpayers oFCanada 
 are invited to contribate $100,000 to aHd to their 
 
 Crofita and to make aa that much poorer. Now, 1 Hbould 
 ave been gla \ if I ooald at all possibly consistently with 
 the trath, to find myself able to acknowledge to-night 
 that in the forecasts which the Qovernment has made from 
 time to time, when ihey were inviting this House to 
 enter on the Canadian Pacific Bailway policy, in the 
 forecasts they made as to the results of that policy — with 
 reference to the railway itself, with reference to the North- 
 West immigration, with reference to North- West settlement, 
 with roforenco to the Noi th-West lands, with reference to 
 the loans and advances which were made to the company — 
 I say I should bo delighted if I were able, consistently with 
 the truth, to acknowledge that the forecast of hon. gentle- 
 men had been accurate and thut my own more gloomy 
 views had turned out to be incorrect. I am not able to 
 acknowledge that, and I can hardly be called on to 
 acknowledge it, when I heard the Finance Minister make 
 a moment ago such a complete travesty of what some 
 of those expectations were, when ho declared the 
 modest views of what the expectations of the Government 
 were in incurring this expenditure— that they hoped in some 
 indirect way to obtain something equivalent to the interest 
 of 4 per cent, on $30,000,000—1 shall have to point out, in 
 view of that declaration, what the expectations of the Gov- 
 ernment really were, what their pledges to Parliament 
 really were, what they stated was to be the result of the 
 policy of which we are discussing another phase and an- 
 other derelopmont to-night. In considering that subject, 
 I wish to point out first of all that the Ministers pledged 
 themselves most absolutely to the finality of the obligations 
 under the Caradian Pacific Bailway contract, and arrange- 
 ments which they proposed to us; secondly, that they pro- 
 mised us as the result of the active Canadian Pacific Railway 
 policy which they proposed in the spring of 1880, and en- 
 larged in the winter of 1880-81, enormous advantages from 
 the rapid construction of the road through the great develop- 
 ment by immigration to the North- West, and the introduc- 
 tion in great numbers from the old world of new taxpayers 
 ..into our North- West dominions ; next, that they declared 
 that the Canadian Pacific Railway policy which they pro- 
 posed to ns would result in the very rapid sale of the 
 Crown lands ; so that every cent of our expenditure 
 in connection with the Canaaian Pacific Railway, with 
 the interest, would be paid to us out of the sales 
 of those lands, and no burden would be imposed on the 
 country at all; ner.t, that they declared that the railway 
 company would itself build branches all over tho North- 
 Wesl with a view to utilising its land grant, and thb* as a 
 result of the subsidy in land and money, which we gave in 
 the year 1881, we would secure not merely the construction 
 of the main line but also tho construction, free of cost to nn, 
 whether in land or in money, of the branches and feeders 
 which were admitted then, as they are admitted now, to bo 
 absolutely essential to the development of the North- 
 West; next, that they declared that the railway company 
 was going to do the immigration work which otherwise wo 
 would have to do, and so that a large saving of expense 
 would be obtained by the Government ; and further, that the 
 monopoly which they proposed would not afTeot — could not 
 affect — Manitoba, and would not injuriously aflfeot the other 
 Territories ; and lastly, that they would secure— and they 
 proffssed they had secured— arrangements for fair play and 
 free competition between the different eastern portions of 
 the Dominion, notably the Province of Ontario and the 
 Province of Quebec, by the conditions which tLoy 
 imposed on the Canadian Pacific Railway a*? to the rates of 
 freight to tho neutral point, Callander, as between the roads 
 constructed or projected in the Province of Ontario and the 
 Province of Quebec. Now, Sir, on all these pointf the 
 forecasts and pledges of hon. gentlemen have been falsified 
 
 by events. First of all, as to tho finality of the bargain. 
 You rei'ollect that the subventions which we were a^ked to 
 give in the year 1881, were then denominated by the 
 Minist'y as large, ample, liberal, and the hon. gentleman 
 who now leads the House specially declared that they were 
 BO of set purpose, in order to avoid what might otherwice 
 happen — tne company coming to ns again Session after 
 Session for further aids. They said wo want at one > to 
 make this final, to get the business ended by giving la -ge 
 and liberal subventions at first so that there may be no 
 further demands upon Parliament. What they said I 
 wanted, was, that the subventions should be so pared 
 down that the (jk>vernment would come and say, we 
 did not give them enough and wo must give them more. 
 In 1884, having made in 1881 tho'ie final arrani(emont8, the 
 element of finality having been so specially dwelt upon by 
 the then Minister of Railways (S'r Charles Tupper) by the 
 First Minister, by the Minister of Public Worki, as the great 
 joy of the occasion, as the thing upon wbich we should con- 
 gratulate ourselves in 1881, in 1884, they came to us and asked 
 ns to lend $30,000,"00 to make the final agreement finally 
 final. We were told thon that it was a profiable 6 per cont. 
 investment. If I recollect aright, the present Minister of 
 the Interior pointed oat that there was really a gain to be 
 made, that it was a prudent investment ; wo wore oorrowing 
 money at 1 per cent, and were g"*'"^ tc> 'end it to the mil- 
 way company at 5 per cont. ; and yet tht> hon. gentlomaa 
 to night talked abont this being a losing transaction I And as to 
 there being any risk of the principal and interest at 6 per 
 cent, not being repaid to us, the idea was scouted by the 
 Government and their supporters. It was calculated that we 
 were going to get back our principal and our interest at 5 per 
 cent., and so make a very good thing out of thio louu. We 
 were also told that this loan was to provide ample funds ; 
 that the road was being built a little faster than originally 
 intended ; but it was obvious that there would be a severe 
 competition between this and other transcontinental high- 
 ways, notably the Northern Pacific ; and it was necessary 
 that we should have a first-class outfit for our road in order 
 that it might compete on good terms ; and so we were to lend 
 the money necessary — a good invostment, sure to be 
 returned with 5 per cent. — to put the road in a first-class 
 position ; and tho arrangement was to be finally final. We 
 were also asked during the same Session, and partly 
 in a previous Session, to engage for about $12,000,000 
 more in connection with the completion of the work, 
 in accordance with the enlarged ideas — in connection 
 with tho settlement with British Columbia in the west, 
 and in connection with the arrangements for finding 
 an Atlantic port, and, also, for the relief of the Province 
 of Quebec from its contribution towards the extension 
 into that Province. Wo were told that all those arrange- 
 ments were ample for these purposes, and the finally final 
 arrangement was finally final for juet one year. For, in 
 the year 1885, we were asked to add some millions more to 
 these eastern engagements, beranse they were found 
 inadequate. We were also asked to lower the rate of 
 interest on the loan from 6 per cent, to 4 per cent. The 
 somewhat hard-lieadod and close handed views of hon. 
 gentlemen when they were persuading us to lend the 
 $30,000,000, had changed in the course of twelve short 
 monthe, and it was thought rather a mean thing to ask the 
 railway company for 6 per cent. They forgot that it was they 
 who were meun, for it was they who had made the bargain ; 
 but they thought that the .Dominion of Canada ought to be 
 above asking more than 4 per cent., as we were toid that 
 was all that the monoy cost us ; though novr we hear the 
 Minister of Finance saying that wo are paying oommiKsions 
 when we borrow the money, and paying commissions 
 when we pay the interest and when we get the loan 
 back, so that the money is costing us more than 4 per 
 cent., and it is really paying as to get back the loan. It 
 
Ih really difflonit to follow the hon. flrentleman's oalcala> 
 tioDB, and derive any particular result from the oalculationg 
 of more than one occasion. Wo were alao abkod at that 
 lime, in 188S, to enlarge the borrowing poworg of the com- 
 pfiny to a conHiderablo extent. We were told that further 
 demands woie made upon the company'd resoarcea, with the 
 view of makinfT the omplete equipment, and ihe admirable 
 road, more onmploto xnd more admirable still ; and a Hum of 
 115,000,0 )0 more was wanted. We readjusted the security 
 Ry-«tem of the company, with the view of enabling it to get 
 from the public $15,000,000 more money, which it d)d get, 
 in order that its equipment might be made ample, and 
 its construotion perfect. Wo were also then asked 
 to impair uur securities on which the interest bad been 
 lowered to 4 per cent. — to impair them as to the bulk 
 and as to the 910,000,000, roundly speaking, which it is 
 now proposed to adjust by these resolutions. Si that our 
 position was that the arrangement which was final in the 
 year I8dl, and which was made finally final in the year 1884, 
 was proposed to be altered again in order that it might be 
 made finally finally final in the year 1885 in those various 
 matters. But there was one thing, Sir, that we were not 
 asked to do; we wore not a>kcd to buy back our own land 
 
 frant in order to supply the company with further resources, 
 arliament was not asked to do that ; the company asked 
 the Oovernmeot to do it, but theGovernmeni— as 1 thought 
 then and said, and as I think now, thmgh they have 
 changed their minds — wisely declined. They di clined the 
 propobal made to them by the company that they should 
 take lack a portion of the land grant, and release a portion 
 of this obligation. They declared that they would not ask 
 Parliament to agree to these terms ; they declared they 
 would still insist on the debt being continued and being 
 paid ; but they professed to be anxious that it should bo 
 secured on the remaining land grant of the company, being 
 far the largest proportion of its 2 1 ,500,000 acres, subject to a 
 comparatively small portion of outstanding bonds— because 
 for tnis purpose I may set aside the 5,000,000 of bonds held as 
 security fur operation— I say that the 21,500,000 acres were 
 referred to us as good security for the $ 10,000,000 upon which 
 it was to be placed. We pointed out the inconveniences of 
 this arrangement. The hon. gentleman is painfully alive to 
 those inconveniences to night He has urged how incon- 
 venient the situation is. He sayt>, here we are, we have not 
 had any interest since the 1st of July last; we cannot get 
 it ; the lands have not produced it. We told him last 
 Session they would not, but he did not believe it then. He 
 says it is rather awkward for us to force a sale of lands 
 — it would depreciate the price of the other Dominion lands 
 if we do. We told him last Session that this would bo bis 
 situation, bat he did not believe it then, ^nd he comes to us 
 to-nigbt saying, I have made Ruch a bad arrengement, con- 
 trary to your advice last Session, that now, to get out of 
 this hobble, we must buy back some of the lands absolutely 
 and give up the debt pro tanto. This is a more rapid step in 
 the direction of the result which was predicted last Session 
 than a good many people expected. We were not asked to 
 do this then, but we are asked to do it now. We were told 
 then that this arrangement of 18ci5 would provide ample 
 funds for every purpose— that the company would be free 
 to accomplish the great and enlarged objects which had 
 been set before the country by the Government and the 
 company as to be accomplished by means of the new 
 arrangement. Now, in the year lB8»i, we are told that that 
 again is a mistake, and that further large sums are required 
 by the company, and that it is necessary to give them fur- 
 ther relief in order that those sums may be obtained and 
 those results attained. We are asked by the Government 
 now to do what the Government refused to submit to us for 
 our approval or consideration last year. The company 
 then made this proposal to them, but they would not even 
 bring it down, because they said they did not intend to 
 
 agree to it. Th<«y waited until they oonid make other terlnii 
 with the company, and thO!>e other terms they brought 
 down. Now, the terms are that this tlO,00),000 is to be 
 added to our net debt, that this 1400,000 a year is to bo 
 added to our interest charge, and that the capital account 
 of the company is to be swollen by an indefinite number of 
 millions more, to be borrowed, in order to make the bargain 
 finally, finally, finally final until the next rear or the year 
 after. So much for the pledge of finality ; so much for 
 the assurances given to us in the year 1881 that the 
 matter was satisfactorily gone and done with by the 
 arrangement for (25,000,000 and 25,000,000 acres of land. 
 Then, with reference to tho predictions and pledges of the 
 Government, as to the result of their rapid Canadian Pacific 
 Railway policy on the increase of population in the North- 
 West, a vital subject to us in more ways than one — a vital 
 subject to us with reference to the making of this nation ; a 
 vital subject to us with reference to the financial strength of 
 this people ; a vital subject to us with reference to the cost and 
 outcome of the undertaking into which we launched, upon 
 the faith of these predictions, which have been so woefully 
 falsified— the First Minister, in the earlier part of 1880, 
 promised, as a result of the land and Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way policy which was then brought down, a great immi- 
 gration. He went into detailed figures and calculatione, 
 which he declared wore mo^t moderate and the result of 
 which could be relied upon, as the outcome of tho policy on 
 which he was going to embark. The oflScial figures, up to 
 the year ISTt' allowing the estimates which I have made of 
 4,000 for the North- West Territory population in the year 
 1870, and of 1 ,000 for the immigration into the whole North- 
 West, including Manitoba, in 1870, for which two points 
 there are no official figures — allowing 5,000 for these two, 
 and adding thom to tho official figures, the population of 
 the oountiy would stand at 53,500 in 1879, apart 
 from the natural increase. The First Minister promised na 
 an immigration of 245,000 between 1879 anl 1885, to 
 which add the estimate for natural increase from the earlier 
 period up to 1885, say 15,000, and you get a total popula- 
 tion, exclusive of Indians, in 1885, of 313,500, composed of 
 these three elements : the first is the official figures up to 
 the year in which the Minister made his statement, 
 adding only 5,000 for the two items I have mentioned ; 
 Ihe second element is the Minister's figure of popu- 
 lation for the six years following; the third element is 
 the natural increase. Now, he declared tl at to these 
 figures there would be added by immigration, from 1885 to 
 1890, 325,000, to which, if you add for natural increase on 
 the whole, 44,000, you would get as a result a population in 
 1890 of 680,000. Sir Charles Tapper declared that no 
 intelligent man could doubt the accuracy of this statement; 
 hon. gentlemen opposite swallowed it, and they acted upon 
 that view. The Minister based these figures of his upon 
 the results in some of the Western States, and he cited the 
 statistics in Minnesota, Kansas, and in several other States 
 in which he declared the rate of progress had been most 
 remarkable, and he stated that we would achieve in the 
 various years for which he gave his fignree similar 
 results. In answer to these statements I pointed out what 
 the rate and the resources of increase in the Western 
 Territories and States of the United States had been. 
 I pointed out the case of a group of twelve of these States 
 and Territories, the acreage of which was 6 M,000,000, and 
 showed that they had a population in 1860 of 5,600,000 ; in 
 1&70 of 8,640,000, making an increase of 3,040,000 on the 
 population of 1&60. Of that population which was there in 
 1870, there were bom in that group no less thau 
 4,390,000 or 50 per cent. ; there were born in other portions 
 of the United States 2,500,000 or over 29 per cent, atd 
 (here wete foreign born 1,750,000 or 20^ per cent. There 
 were thus, as I have shown, three great sources of increase 
 which had produced the results to which tha First Minister 
 
Appealed u the basis of his oaloalationi fint, the natural 
 rapid inoreaee io a fertile and sparsely settled ooantry, 
 while we, in our case, hud at that time no HubstaQtial du- 
 oleoB from which to produce a natural rapid inoreaee ; 
 secoodly, the great immigration from the Eastern to the 
 Western States,while wo hul only one-fourth in round figures 
 of their rrsorve store of Fettled population from which 
 a surplus might be expected to flow — in round figures we 
 stood 4,000,000 to about 40,000,000 ; third, the enormous 
 foreign immigration to the States, in part direct to the 
 western districts and in large part to the east, having how- 
 ever the very important result of setting free the flow of 
 emigration from the east to the west of the native population 
 of the States. As to this last source I pointed out that we, 
 for several reasons, largely political, could not hope, early 
 or largely, to divert the current of immigration either of Euro- 
 
 Seans generally or Irish Catholics specially from the United 
 tatee, so Ions as those States had, as at that time they still 
 continued to have, very considerable reserves of cheap and 
 fertile lands. Now, the general census for the States for 
 the later decennial period was not then available, and 
 both sides had to resort to the States' censuses in the west 
 for information as to that period. I referred myself to two 
 States to which hon. genilemen had referred, and upon 
 whiah they haH r«iied as showing marks of the greatest 
 progress and prosperity ; the States of Kansas and Ne- 
 braska. I showed what their progress to 1879 had been, 
 and that, remarkable as that progress unquestionably was, 
 it did not furnish a ground for the estimates of hon. gent- 
 lemen as applied to our condition. Well, a few months 
 passed over from the period of these estimates of the Gov- 
 ernment, and they then brought down an altered Canadian 
 Pacifio Bailway policy, under which the work was to be 
 done, partly by the company, partly by the Government, 
 and in a still much shorter time, taken as whole, than was 
 propoBod in the early part of 1880. They declared that 
 the altered policy, with the stimulus to be produced 
 by the more rapid execution of the work, and by the 
 great efiforts and expenditure of the company, which they 
 were to make in the immigration field, would have the effect 
 of largely acoelerating the setiloment of the North- ^ est 
 beyond their former expectations ; that it would tend further 
 to brighten the prospects, so bright already, which they 
 had set before us a few months previous. Then, in 1883 or 
 1884, it was arranged that the work should be still further 
 accelerated, that is, it should be finished in five years from 
 that time; and the Minister once again declared, and the 
 Minister of Finance again reiterated, that this acceleration 
 of the work would still farther benefit Canada. The decla- 
 ration was that it should increase the volume and quicken 
 the flow of immigration, and every effort was made by hon. 
 gentlemen to verify these predictions. The declarations 
 which thev made were of the strongest character, and they 
 announced some time afterwards that the ^aots were 
 going to be as good or better than they had stated 
 they would be. flow, even during the years which 
 had even preceded this acceleration, the year 1881, and 
 particularly the years 1882 and 1883, the Ministers 
 were declaring that these predictions to which I have 
 referred were fulfilled and more than fulfilled, that they 
 had been better than their word. They were booming 
 the North- West to the utmost of their power. They regret 
 the boom now ; they sometimes sav it did a great deal of 
 harm ; they speak of that regrettable inflation, the nnfqrta- 
 najte results which have happened, and so forth ; but th^ey 
 did all they could to produce it, and they are mainly res- 
 pQQsible for its production and for the disastrous results 
 which have floT^ed from it. They gave official figures 
 of these alleged results of theirs. The official returns of the 
 aiotaal injmigraiion to the North West, carrying on the 
 ofl^ial figures frpmthe year 1S79, which I gave a while ago, 
 W0fU4 give, for the immigration to that coan^,,tip to tiid 
 
 year 1885, 237,000 souls, to which, if von add 18,000 for 
 natural increase, you will got a total of 2n0,000 as those who 
 ought to be in the territory in the year 188&, always excluding 
 the Indians. Now, I am not speaking— it is as well it should 
 he understood— of the estimates of the hon. Minister now 
 the Minister of Railways. We know what his estimates 
 were. Why, I recolleot one time when he told ui — I for- 
 get the figures exaotlr, but something equivalent to about 
 twice the whole immigration which has taken place from 
 foreign parts, apart from the Irish immigration, as thai 
 whion he expected in one season. 
 
 Mr. POPB. I only spoke of one season, and we got them. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. No; I asked him on several oocasiona 
 what the expected immigration was to be ; and ho gave 
 that. Bat I am not speaking of the estimates. I am speak- 
 ing of the official declarations as to the immigranta that 
 aotijially came in, and it is by these declarations 1 am pro- 
 posing now to Judge the situation; and by these, taking up 
 to the year 1879, the figures to which I have referred, yon 
 find that we ought to have had 250,000 souls in tho North- 
 West in the year 1885. These official returns gave us for the 
 year 1881, in round numbers, 22,000; for 188J, 50 800; for 
 18H3, 42,800; and for 1884, 24,400-or a total ot 148,000 
 immigrant settlors into that country in four consecutive 
 
 fears, more than every white soul that is there to-day. 
 do not believe that there are many more than 125,000 
 whites in Manitoba and the North-West Territories at 
 this time, only about two out of five of the results 
 of the First Minister's statement of what ought to be 
 there, onlv about one out of two of the Minister's state- 
 ments of those who actually did settle there. Now, what 
 has become of them ? Where are they ? Did thoy ever 
 go in, or. if they did go in, where are they gone to ? Because 
 we find the official figures which indicate to us that thoy 
 went in, and I am quite convinced they are not to be found 
 there now. But still more, of those settlers, when the calcu- 
 lations were presented to us of the accession of stiength and 
 wealth to Canada, the representation was that the great 
 bulk would be from abroad. It was foreign immigration 
 and immigration from the Britibh Isles to the North- West 
 which we were to count upon mainljr. In those early years, 
 little, indeed hardly anything was said of immigration from 
 one part of Canada to the other. But, when you look at 
 results, yon find under the territorial census over 60 per 
 cent, of the white settlers are Canadian born, and less 
 than 40 per cent, came from abroad; and of those who 
 came from abroad, a considerable proportion may have been, 
 some I believe were, persons who, although they did come 
 from abroad, had been settlers in the older parts of Canada 
 before they went to the North-West. Ou the same ratio, 
 which is perhaps too favorable, there would be only about 
 50,000 immigrants from abroad — from the States, fW>m the 
 British Isles, from the continent of Europe, from abroad, in 
 a word foreign- |torn — out of the whole immigration into 
 that country. Now, that is the result We were abused 
 for suggesting that these estimates and these official 
 returns aid not represent, in the first case the probability, in 
 the second case the actual fhct. We were tok; that we wero 
 decrying the country ; we were told that we were under- 
 estimating the prospects and the results, in order to pro- 
 duce evil effects; but today yon find the situation altogether 
 changed ; to-day you find the principal organ of the Gov- 
 ernment discussing this very question in vA'y dlucrent 
 kngnage. In the Mail newspaper of the 5th of this month 
 is an article upon the North- West, from which J quote an 
 extract or two : 
 
 " We hsTe repeated boom estimates and quoted boomiten' figores" -^ 
 
 Who ipade the boom estimates, and whose were the boom- 
 •t#r»' %«rea 7 
 
 
I 
 
 " W« h«T« ttpMttt Wk citloMtM tai qootod boomtMn' flgwM 
 •boat eTervthlng until -we hare < rratad in our mlodi the viiion of » 
 region which doei not eiilt anywhere on earth ; and now that it hai 
 beea tlwttend by tba pioMlo revaUtlou of lfa« oenra, we are wMtlc 
 enough to feel lorry at being nndeoeiTed." 
 
 Again: 
 
 ■' The troth ii th*t, ail thinn oouiderid. the popnlation of NMlloba 
 m4 the Territories ii qaite »• Targe, plkoiog it at 1W,000 whites, as we 
 h*d any right to upect it to be. (i mast be remembered that in all the 
 new regions io the Onitod States, the large part of the popaiation is 
 AmsileM bora, b«iling from the older States. There is no esoeptlon 
 to this rule. la Dakota, for example, Mcording to the speoial census 
 taken In that territory last June, 269,700 settlers, out of a total of 416,000, 
 75 per cent, were aatlve Amerleans, leaving only 35 per cent., or 148,000, 
 to the credit o( Immigration. The same strange ethnic process is at 
 work in oar TarritorUs, for by the eensus Just taken it appears that of 
 • white population of 23,000, no fewer than 14,200, or a little over 60 
 per cent, are of Canadian origin. But it we must assume, in itccordance 
 with this law, that the greater part of the future population of the 
 North- West is to aonsiii oi thr cverflow tcom the older Provinces, then 
 It is CTident that the increase ia population is sure to be slow as com- 
 pared with the Increase in the newer regions across the line, since our 
 reaerToir of population is buta-tenth as larne as theirs. Mo-eover, it is 
 well known thui those immigrants who, nrxt to the natlTe-born settlers, 
 have helped to develop Dakota and Minnesota, viz,, the Scandinavians 
 and Oermans, are not to be procured for our North- West juet now. 
 Tfaer avoid oar Territoiy because they do not approve of oar p >litical 
 inititationa. This is an onpalatable truth, bat there it is, and we must 
 take aoooont of it The nativity tables of the foreign-birn population in 
 Dakota have not yet been compiled in detail, hot the Swedes and Nor- 
 wegians rank Bnt in nnmber, and the Oermaas are well up Ho tfait, 
 being practically cut oir from Oerman and Scandinavian immigration, 
 and having, as compared with the Americans, but a smaliovertiuwfrQnf 
 native sources, It is manifestly ahaurd to expect any tremendous rate of 
 development in our North-West just at present, Our time will come 
 when the homestead landi In the Onite 1 States are exhausted." 
 
 The article then prooeede to point out the last report of the 
 Commiasioner at Washington, ahowing that these reserve* 
 have shrunk to comparatively small proportions, and, after 
 a quotation of that kind, the article proceeds : 
 
 '* In the coarse of a few yean Dakota will be out of the field. The 
 immigration bureau of that territory says, in one of its monthly publica- 
 tions (that for February), that at the end of 188S the area of vacant 
 Oovernment land, rated as agricultural land and open to rettlement, 
 wa« estimated at 20,000,000 acies, of which 18,000,000 lay in northern 
 Dakota For the six months eudiug 31st December, the area.of land 
 entered on or filed was 1,524,000 acres— pay 3,000,000 a year. At this 
 rate the vacant land will be pretty well exhausted in seven years, ard a 
 most fc'midable competitor tu Manitoba and the Territories disposed of. 
 Canada may then surely reckon on an immietation from the continent 
 of Burope, provided elrorts are made beforenand to make the people 
 acquainted with the wealth ot our resources. Meanwhile we probaoly 
 need not look for anvmirennlnu" development of the Vorth-West. There 
 will le a steady iullux of settlers from the Unit«tl K'ngdom, with a 
 sprinkling from the continent of Burope ; but the main siream of immi- 
 gration will donbtiess consist of young Oanadians who, bat for our 
 enterprise in opening up this great region, would find their war to the 
 Doited States, where so many tboosands of our people settled in the 
 days when we had no free prairie homesteads to offer.'' 
 
 That is the present view of those who thought we were 
 going to have this enormous immigration from across the 
 seas into the North West in the last few years, and in the 
 f»w yean which are to expire before 1891. Now, Sir, I 
 think it very ptain that in these respeots upon which the 
 country wa<i asked to embark on a scheme of rapid oons- 
 trnotiion aad enormona expenditure, with the promise of 
 immediate and tangible results of the most valuable 
 character, oyents have already shown how lalse were the 
 predictions and how untrustworthy the guides who led the 
 country into this enterprise after this fashion. Now, then 
 let me take the next point : it is the promise that our 
 landa would be settled fast, and that out of them every cent 
 of our Canadian Pacific £Utilway obligations and interest 
 would be met. I do not go back before the year 1880 ; it 
 is not necessary to advert to the older statements. In 1880 
 the First Minister used these words : 
 
 * * For the purpose of re'ieviog the people of Canada from the burden 
 of taxation, which the work would otherwise en'ail, we have offered 
 •very stcMtd lot M an apset price, so that the road may be eventually 
 built wUhMt e M'iag the ptople one single tarthiog which will not be 
 recouped. I be.icve that laod can be made prodactive under the terms 
 ol the resolution t) complete the whole of that road, to open that Im- 
 mense eoant^, and give us a magnificent railway from sea to sea, with- 
 •at aAding to tbs )qtdeai of the people or wHboat oaoaiiig any neces- 
 
 iltjr for •& laoHMt of laaatkM. Vb «*ii d« hall bj ti -> lal* ef •tin lull 
 
 which we bold as a sacred trust for the purpose of^ ( etraying the whole 
 expense of the construction of tbs Uanadlan Pacific Railway." 
 
 Again he says: 
 
 " As the road prograsies, the annual sale of lands will be mora thaa 
 suffldent to meet all possible cost of the railway." 
 
 Again : 
 
 "The proceeds of the sab of the lands will meet our engagements ai 
 the work progresses, Including claims for interest." 
 
 The hon. member for Oardwell (lir. White), in an amend- 
 ment to the motion of the hon. member for North Norfolk 
 (Mr. Charlton), in the same Seaaion, moved, and the House 
 resolved, at his instance: 
 
 " That the policy of the Oovernment for the disposal of the public land 
 In Manitoba and the North West, is well calculated to promote the ra'iid 
 settlement of that region, and to raise the moneys rtuuire 1 for the con- 
 struction of the Caoadian Pacific Railway without further burlening 
 the people, and that it deserves the support and approval of this House.*' 
 
 Well, Sir, in the same Session the First Minister diiclared 
 that we would sell, from 1880 to 1885 inclasive, 28,C00 
 pre-emptions, and for the year 1886, 6,250 ; that we would 
 make other sales, from 1880 to 1R86, 14,000 in namb.ir 
 and in the year 1885, 3,125 in nnmber. The results have 
 been : Pre-emptions from 18-0 to 1885, 15,275, of which I 
 am afraid a sreat many will be cancelled or abandoned, 
 insioad of 28,000; and for the year 1885, 663 instead of 
 6,260. There were sales frjm 18b0 to 1885, 9,631, instead 
 of 14,000 : and for the year 1885, 785 instead of 3,125. He 
 estimated in the years 1885 to 1889,40,626 pre-emptions and 
 20,813 sales. What are the estimates to-day, I wonder? We 
 have settled just 138 homesteaders up to the 3lHt Docember, 
 on 400 miles oi the forty-eight mile belt of the Canadian Paci- 
 fic Bail way. In the same yenr, 1880, the First Minibtor esti- 
 mated the cash proceeds of the lands actually to bo received 
 from that year to 1890 inclusive, at 138,600,000. The 
 amount which was to be then due but not pavable, but 
 still a mortgage on the lands, and as good as casn, bearintr 
 interest, was to be $32,700,000, or an aggregate of received 
 and due of 171,300,000. He estimated the cost of survey and 
 the administration of (hose lands at $2,400,000, and he 
 brought down a handsome balance of not results 
 of t68,900,000 before the year 1890. In reply to that 
 estimate I poinleJ cut that tho icroup of WcHloru Stales to 
 which I referred had, in 1850, taken up per head of the 
 population twelve and one-half acres, and had improved 
 
 Eer head of the population fiveneres; that in 1860 they 
 ad taken up per head of the population twelve acres, and 
 had improved six and one-third acres ; that in 1870 they 
 had taken up pr head of the population ten and one-half 
 acres, and had improved six and one-half acres. Wf II, the 
 Min stor calculated upon an immigration of 550,000, taking 
 up no less than fifty-nine acres per head ; and Sir Charles 
 Tupper, somewhat later, calculatod that 100,000 farmers in 
 the North-West would produce 640,000,000 bushels of 
 wheat in one year. You may oombine tbeaa calculations 
 and yon find. Sir, the i^irst Minister oaloulated that the 
 taking up of land would be in the proportion of fifty-nine 
 acres per soul of the population, and the Minister of 
 RailwajB declared that 100,000 families would produce 
 640,000,000 bushels of wheat, and yon see by what follies 
 the people of this country have been gulled into the posi- 
 tion in which they are placed to-day. I admitted. Sir, that it 
 was probable that a very considerably larger area per head 
 would betaken up in the North-West, under our land regula- 
 tions and with reference to modern methods of cultivation, 
 than in the earlier period in the Weetern States, but I de- 
 clared then, and I repeat the statement now, that the sug- 
 gestion of fifty-nine acres per head was, and is nothing 
 lese than ridiculous. Tou find today tho Miuister in charge 
 of the Department saying that there is a very strong opin« 
 ion amongat the population \h»i 160 aerea is aa maob m a 
 
man on«r)it to 1)aT«->«a tti« nvwtgi ftirmer dQglit to h«T«' 
 
 «nd Rtill the hon gentleman proposed at thatearly date that 
 about Hi xty ncrri per head of the population, or, if you 
 count five to a family, 300 acres per head, was about the cal- 
 culation for all, including those who lived in towna and vil- 
 laf(OB— merchants, mechanics, farm servants — the whole 
 population. Then, ajrain, as to the proceeds of the sales. I 
 pointe<I out that the United SUtes, in the eiRhtylhree years 
 preceding 1879, had recoivcd, gross, 1204 500,000 from their 
 public lands, or 12.460,000 a year; that in the twenty years 
 before 1879, they had received $30,360,000 ; or tor eleven 
 years, about 116.500,000, while we were told to expect a 
 receipt of t38,R00,nfl0 in cn-h in eleven years, and 132,700,- 
 000 as good as gold, in morlgaget upon the land. I declared 
 then that those caloulutionH were wholly visionary, ar.J I 
 begged the House not to enter into large engagements upon 
 such calculations. A few months later came the bargain 
 with the Canadian Paciflo Railway, and the Government 
 then promised that the sales of land would recoup all our 
 expenditure, and they persuaded the Houiie and the country 
 to aereo to the bargain upon that specific pledge. Well, Sir, 
 we then declared that that pledge would be broken ; we 
 declared that the country would not be recouped out of those 
 lands for themonev which It was expending, and was called 
 upon to pxpend. You have, todiiy, the statement of the 
 Finance Minister, from which you can judge whether our fore- 
 casts or those of gentlemen opposite were the more correct. 
 We asked the Houf-e to adoot the policy of proceeding as 
 rapidly as roqnirod, even in advance of the demands of 
 settlement, in the development of the railway facilities for 
 the North West, but to keep down the unnecessary cost of 
 very rnpid construction of portions of the ravi not then 
 urgently needed, and not lo plunge into this enormous ex- 
 prnditnro upon fallacious estimates. The delusions upon 
 wli'nh hon. gentlemen opposite invited the House and the 
 country to agree to ihoir policy were kept up by them for 
 years. T need not quote their utter.inces during the year 
 18RI bopnu'fl T ••hall show y^u, Mr. Sponlcor, that all along 
 after that, and to within a very short space of time, those 
 utterances wore repeated and re-aflarmod by Minihters. On 
 lOlh February, 1882, the First Minister made this state- 
 ment: 
 
 " Wf hiiTe not for(roUen ihe promUi" made by the QoTornment that 
 they would m«k<» the land in that country recoup to the Dominioa 
 the $J6,000,0OO that we have promiaed the Syndicate, and what the 
 DoDiinion has alrpady spent, or is apendtnK, on the Canadian Pacifin 
 Railway. There ii no reason in the world, aa I have urged again and 
 asain, why ihe people of the older Province! should put their hinds in 
 their pockets and settle that country and improre it, and build railways 
 at th'ir expense. That country, wh^ch is Romg to reap the advantage 
 of those railway" should provide the cost of the improvementB, and the 
 Norlh-Weat, I am happy to eay, ia so rich, and will be so sought for, 
 that what was a reasonable proposition at the b»ginning is now a cer- 
 tainty, namely, that it will be able to sell sufficient land, that while 
 preaorving the homeatea ling right, it would be able to repay to thoie 
 who have contributed to the taxea nceaaary In connection with baildiog 
 the road the money with Interest added " 
 
 The Finance Minister tonight has talked about our reaping 
 some indirect advantage equal to 4 per cent, on t50,000,000 
 or Si.000,000 a year. He was careful to repeat the word 
 " indirect," and he proceeded with a sort of hocus poous cal- 
 culation, which I would have been better pleased had he 
 used before he was Finance Minister than which he occupies 
 that position, that we had received that return from the 
 accelerated rapi J ity of construction and the earlier period 
 at which the money was spent. That was not the promise 
 mado to ns— not that which the Finance Minister has stated 
 to us in terms which I think will become historical. But 
 the promise was that we would get out of the land in hard 
 cash the money we were contributing to the company and 
 putting into the road, with ii terest added thereto. And that 
 was the promise as late as 1882— not merely the promise, but 
 we had Uie allegation that that which had been a promise 
 And a pledge in 1880 had beoomea certainty in 1888. Well, 
 
 th«D, on 2nd April, 1883, not the lat, the Pi rat Minister Mid 
 
 this: 
 
 "It wai the polley of ths Oorsmmeot that that eoaatry ihoald evsa- 
 toally pay for iu own railway." 
 
 Again : 
 
 " 75,000,000 aorei are tobe lold— they ar* not to be lold for homeitaad 
 pnrposM— for the purpoM of rellerlDg the people of th« older Provlneei 
 who, on the faith of this assurance and promise— and on tbii promlie 
 only— aooepted the bnrden, and hare at the polli recorded tbeir laDCtlon 
 of inii policy. • • • They endoried this policy on the nnder- 
 standing that, eTcntually, that country would paj the whole of the 
 fxpenie." 
 
 There I have the statement of the hon. gentleman that it 
 was upon the promise that we were to be recouped in cash 
 out of the lands that Piriiamont, and afterwards the people, 
 accepted ihe bargain and endordod the policy — on that 
 promise and on ihnt proinise only. Who ia bold enough to 
 declare now that that promise has not been broken ?— that 
 policy which the people they confess endorsed on the 
 understanding that eventually the country would pay the 
 whole of the expense 7 Again : 
 
 " It Ii safe. It Ii certainly beyond the possibility of doubt to tay that 
 every farthing and every cent and everj[ dollar that baa been or will be 
 expended In building the Canadian Pacific Railway, not one ihilling of 
 this b irden will fall on our shoulders, or on the eboulden of the gene- 
 ration that will succeed ui. We will be free from the whole amoant of 
 that debt." 
 
 Again : 
 
 " |7SO,000 was paid In in one day from the recent mIci— this li a 
 very substantial commencement of the fund which ie to pay off the 
 SiSiOOOiOOO. It will be put to the credit of the fund and invi sted at in- 
 terest for the purpose of pftjlng off the whole of this |3A,OOO,00O." 
 
 Now, perhapn, the hon. Finance Minister knows, what he 
 did not know when he made his late Budget speech, and 
 when be told us he was ignorant why Sir Leonard Tilley, 
 his prodeoe^or, had actually put thope moneys received 
 from the lands to a sort of separate capital account. That 
 is how the matter htood ; the Minister of Finance, however, 
 thought ho did not Buf pose it would be of much consequence 
 as the Government then had a surp'us, but now times have 
 changed and the amount, although very small, makes a 
 difference, and the hon. gentleman is going to put it to 
 revenue. I point out to him that, in a light and easy way, 
 he is bru >hing away a promise, a pledge and engagement, 
 that the money would be placed to capital account and 
 invested at interest, and used to repay the debt. Again : 
 
 " By this year then there will be 10,000,COO acres granted to colonisa- 
 tion companies under plan No I, which means the eventual payment of 
 $10,000,000 into the Treasury." 
 
 And again : 
 
 " That will be $10,000,000, and with the calei that will take place of 
 railway landi in other portions, we will have, either in money, or la 
 what is as good as money, solid mortgages on every one of these coloni- 
 sation trac'i an amount equal to $l3,500,0b0 ; ao that in one year we 
 may fairly aay w« ha?e got half at the whole, $2»,000,000." 
 
 Where is it now ? Then on 12th April, 1882, Sir Charles 
 Tupper said : 
 
 " The lands have ao increased in value as to warrant ui in the state- 
 ment, and to warrant the conviction in the mind of every intelligent 
 man . that at an early date we will not only have the $18,001,000 recouped 
 to the Treasury, but we will go on ; and if we have not wiped out our 
 other responsibilities we will soon l>e In a condition to wipe oat the 
 engagemeats thrown upon ns by the Ute Government, as well as thoM 
 incurred by our own in reference to the work." 
 
 I think I have shown ihe House what the situation was in 
 1882. Let me now come to 18b3. In that year Sir Charles 
 Tupper declared that our secured receipts from transactions 
 already effected in the three previous years, 1880, '81 and 
 '82, would be by 1-86 a trifle over 110,000,000, apart from 
 all new transactions such as railway grants and further 
 sales ; they were actual receipts to come in by the year 
 1885 from the tranbaotions already aocomplisbeo in 1880-81- 
 88, That period has now expired. We declared, on iJioae 
 
oooaaiont, that the gentrftl reanlt would b* that the oountrj 
 would not realise, ont of North-West landa, anything 
 approciablo in excew of the ooHt of the adminiatration, 
 having regard to oortain chargoH which wore properly 
 charges up'>n that niminiHtration, ohargcR for po'ioo, for 
 Indians, lor immigration and tor local government; and that 
 if yon omitted all those, and took only wbat the Government 
 called charges of administration, ibore would not be very 
 much t<o go towdrda interest on what we would borrow, and 
 nothing whatever towards the principal. That was the 
 declaration we made. The hon. gentleman declared to the 
 House and the people that those enormous eums would be 
 realised, and would go to a reduction of the principal, and 
 that the interest would be paid aluo. Which has turned out 
 correct? What are the actual receipts from all aouroes, 
 not for the transaotions of 1880-81-S2, but all receipts 
 from 1880 to 1885. The receipts were 14,052,000, and 
 the expenditures for surveys and land officers and that 
 class of expenditure, was 13,820,000, leaving a balance of 
 1732,000. From thiii you have, in my view, still to deduct 
 certain charges. For exampio, I estimate that at leu8t ouc- 
 half of the cost of the Department of the Interior under the 
 old system, before the hon. gentleman enlarged it, is fairly 
 to be chargeable to the land branch of that Department. Of 
 course the Indian branch is a separate branch, and I am 
 speaking of the Interior by itaelf. Now, half the cost of 
 the Interior under the old scale for the last six years would 
 give jou 1133,000, and then I take the whole excessive oo^t 
 of the Interior, beyond the cost in the old time, the cost of 
 the hon. gentleman's policy, as attributable to the lands, 
 and that is t22&,000 more in the six years, making an 
 aggregate of $338,000, leaving, as a not reanlt, |S74,000, 
 without saying a word about the Indians, about immigra- 
 tion, about mounted police, about local government, or 
 any of those charges. So you may practically say 
 that there has been nothing net ont of the lands 
 of the North-Weat for these years during which hon. 
 gentlemen declared so large a sum would be realised 
 aa to recoup us pro tanto for the expenditure on the Oanadian 
 Pacific Railway. And this is not an increasing ratio ; it 
 included the boom, the speculative period, the period in 
 which they sold in a day to speculators largo quantities of 
 land, in which they realised from colonisation companies a 
 considerable sum, the colonisation bubble, the speculative 
 bubble, the town site bubble. Of late years there has been 
 a positive losa, and you can Judge that from a statement of 
 the annual reoeipta. In 1880 the gross receipts were 
 1165,000; in 1881,1164,000; in 1882, tl,*7i7,000; iu 1883, 
 1928,000; in 1884, 1788,000; and in 1886, 1288.000; so 
 that our over expenditure last year was over |223,000, apart 
 from the cost of the land part of the Interior Department, 
 which would show, if you added it, a total deficit of about 
 $300,000 for that year. It is true this expenditure 
 includes a great deal of surveying; we have. purveyed 
 a great deal of land— more than we wanted. A large 
 portion of the work was ill-done and expensively done, 
 from the expedition with which it was done ; a good deal 
 of it has to be done over again. They had not time to survey 
 where surveys ought to have been made, where the people 
 and the settlements were. They had no time to give to 
 Buch work, they had to go on surveyicg by the tens of millions 
 of acref, in places that will not be filled for many years to 
 come. It was announced in the blne-bo3ks ; the complaints 
 of the settlers on the Saskatchewan were referred to there 
 as well aa by the Minister in answer to me. They said 
 we cannot attend to this ; we are engaged in a great work ; 
 we are developing the North-West ; we are building the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway ; we are floating colonisation 
 companies, and we have to survey millions of aorea ; we 
 have not time to attend to the settlers there, and they went 
 on in this wild goose chase of theirs with the melancholy 
 i«Balts which I hope we have not yet quite forgotten. Bat 
 
 we were alao receiving ezoeptional auma through the booitt, 
 and we made exceptional ana foolish expenditurea with tnor- 
 mous rapidity in useless surveys, and with this result, that 
 they leooivod only $1,050,000 gross and a few hundred 
 thousand dollars net, duiintf ibis period, and the Mniaterof 
 Finance tells us thitt fur the future, as the roueipts have 
 now grown so small, he does not intend to put them to capi- 
 tal but to revenue aooount, ho Ihul you can judge we are 
 not to be furnished with boom estimutes for some time to 
 come, or until f ome other purpose is to be served. Dow 
 much la to be netted now by 1890, in view of the $69,000,000 
 which was to he obtained in oaHh or mortgage by the estim- 
 ate of 18^0? Will the hon. gentleman say one half that 
 amount? Will he aay one-tenth that amount? I do 
 not believe he will. In 188d the late Minister of 
 Finance estimated our cash receipts from land in the 
 North- West for 1884 in round numlwra at $2 250,000; 
 in 188j, $i,000,000 ; in 18 6, $2,000,U00; total, $6,250,000, 
 for those three years. We have actually received in groaa 
 for 1884, $788,000; for 1885, $288,000, or for those two 
 years $ 1 ,076,000. I do not know how much the hon. gei>tlo- 
 man estimated for revenue out of landa of the North-West 
 this year; he did not particnlariao, but he gave us the 
 gross sum of seven or eight millions of revenue without 
 stating details apart from the Customs or Excise, and we 
 did not get the particulars. I daresay that from this source 
 it was not more than $300,000 ; I daroHuy that $1,300,000 or 
 $1,|00,U00 is the projuuLcd result of those three years, in 
 which by the estimate of three years ago we were to 
 have got $6,250,000, resulting in there being no net 
 whatever, and a loss instead of a profit after expenses are 
 paid, for the years in which, according to the view of three 
 yeais ago, we should have had at least $5,000,000 net 
 profit in cash. In 188 J the Minister of Railways estimated 
 as the cash resnlta of colonisation campanies for four years, 
 $ 2,562,000 The actual results were for the firttt of these 
 years, $348,500; for 1881, $221,700; for 1885, $1,200, 
 making a total of $503,403 for three out of those four 
 years. I do not believe that the year 1886 will materially 
 increase the receipts, and the result therefore will be about 
 one-tifth of the hon. gentleman's estimate. In the same year, 
 1883, the Government estimated that we would net many mil- 
 lions out of the branch rail-vay lands. We were to sell them to 
 the companies at $1.06 per acre, and after that they were 
 to make large profits — enough to make a banis out of which 
 the roads were to be built Taere would be about four or 
 five millions in that way, and it was capable of a large 
 increase. A little later they found that they had been too 
 extravagant ; they found tnat they had been giving the 
 branch railways too large a margin of profit; they were 
 to make too much money out of the North-West lands 
 given to them at $1.06 per acre and they paesod an Order 
 in Council declaring that for the future they would not give 
 them to railway companies for less than $1.60, in order 
 that the country might have a fair share of the profits. A 
 few mocths after the bubble burat altoe^ether, and since 
 then they have remitted not only the extra half dollar of 
 1883, but the original dollar, and the land grants are 
 free to the branch railways, resulting in free grants of, as 
 far as I can judge, seven or eight millions of acres given, or to 
 be given immediately, foi the construction of branch railways 
 which were to have been built by the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way practically ont of its land grant. You can judge what 
 the results of that operation are upon the values of land in 
 the North West Territories. In 1883 the Department of the 
 Interior reported, in addition to the actual payments which 
 had been made, that there would accrue due for the next 
 three years in pre-emptions and time sa'ea $4,393,070. 
 Now, that was for the years 1884, 1885 and 1886. I wonder 
 how much we shall get ? I wonder what the Minister of 
 Interior will say now as to the accuracy of that estimate ? In 
 that year, to cap the olimaz, the Department of the Interior 
 
ttMMAtodt md ^« thM Miniaier of ItoilwAji (Sir OhtriM 
 Tapper) read a itatomflnt to th« Hooae, on the 4th day of 
 If ay, 1888, and this in the Btatement : 
 
 " Bn,— HtvlnR Klrcn tbfi tiibjast 1117 belt kodfullcit conildcMtion, I 
 MilniaUtb»t th« receipt of thti DepArtmeat from theiale ofajcrienltu «l 
 ud coal iMidi, timber duet, reott of grkilDfi Undi, uid lalei of 
 mineral landi, other than eoal, with the rujraltiee from th« mlorraii 
 between the lit of Janocry, 1M3, and the Slit of December, 1891, both 
 daft ioeluiive, will aaomt to not leti than 9M,000,000." 
 
 That wae m late an the 4th of May, 1883. What will be 
 •aid OD thia 30th of April, 1886, aa to the result by the 
 Slat of Deooraber, 1891 ? We have been askioff ever ainoe 
 for the production of the details, the rivulets, of this f^olden 
 •troam, this stream of Paotolus which the railway was going 
 to throw into the Treauury. And the Minister actually tolls 
 us ho is not going to put all that to capital aooonnt it is 
 not worth while ) bat he is going to pat it into the revenue. 
 A year or two ago this House passed an order for the details 
 of this. We want to see them, to gloat over them, to 
 rejoice over them— to verify not only the resalto io groKS, 
 but the parts in detail— to see how this grand prophecy wus 
 goinff to be fulfilled. The House has ordered them, but 
 the Department has not furnished them, it is iishamod to 
 furui.ih them; it dare not furnish them; and we are kept 
 in the dark us to that. 1 think I have shown yoa that the 
 promises of this Government were precise, clear, emphatic, 
 su)Mirabundunt, as to what thiy would do, and what 
 they had made practically a matter of certainly 
 with loleience to the lands in the Nortb-West, 
 namely, that all the expenditure they called on us to 
 incur would be repaid to us rapidly, principal and interest, 
 out of the sale of those lands. I think I have shown lUe 
 calculations on which they based these estimates, and that 
 events have wholly falsified the accuracy of those estimates. 
 Then, with reaard to branch railways, if yon compare the 
 
 Jkromises of the Government and company with their per- 
 ormanoes, you find the reaults early in the history of the 
 company. They made claims on the Ctovernment for large 
 reserves of land in various parts of the country, and laid 
 before them plans of various branch railways that they 
 were going to build. I think that in or year no less than 
 1,600 miles of branch railways were projected to be con- 
 structed by the Oanadian Pacific Railway Ck>mpany in the 
 North-West. But yon know what thoy have done, and what 
 we have done. We have had to sell at a low price, and after- 
 wards to give for nothing millions of acres of pablio lands ; 
 many municipalities have been called upon to grant bonuses 
 out of their scanty means ; the Legislature of the Province of 
 Manitoba ban been asked to issue bonds based on the limited 
 resources of that Province, in order to get these branch lines 
 built ; and Parliament will probably have to give seven or 
 eight million acres more free, in order to secure that very 
 tbinff which we were told we were going to secure 
 by the original subvention to the Canadian Eawfio Bailway 
 Company. And we have to give this in part for building 
 through s^large part of the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- 
 pany's own land grant ; for if you examine the land grant 
 to the Qu'Appelle and Long Lake Railway, yon will find 
 that the Grovernment declined to give a land grant, because 
 they said it was going to be built through Canadian Pacific 
 Railway lands, and therefore the Canadian Paoifio Railway 
 Company ought to baild the line. The company deolined 
 to build it, but tbey said you build it through, and it will 
 increase the value of our lands ; you baild and we will get 
 the benefit. Then it was said that we were going to save a 
 great deal of money by the Canadiao Paoifio Railway Com- 
 pany undertakiog a portion of the burden which woold 
 otherwise have fallen upon us with reference to immigration 
 expenditure. T need not say much about that. You know 
 the enormous expenditure incurred for immigration pnr- 
 ^^oa«» for years past, and the beagvly raealta derived from 
 it ; and I am sorry to sagr that iSo oensoaof the North- West 
 
 TerrltorlM shows how little productive that expenditure 
 has been. Instead of a reduction, there haa been an enor- 
 mous increase in the expenditure for immigration: the 
 economy promised as a result of the arrangement witn the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company hat not been pro- 
 duced. The official Htalisti'** deceive us no longer. 
 We do not appear to have done much more than, if we 
 have done as much, to retain our natural increase with 
 all this Immense expenditure. We have brought in many 
 persons unsnited to the country, and many more to compete 
 with mechanics who were already hard preased. We hope 
 for some better frait in fbtore flrom this enormous expenai- 
 ture ; but so far it seems mostiv to have helped only party 
 hacks and party newspapers with printing jobs. As to the 
 monopoly, yon know that the pledgee as to Manitoba have 
 been absolutely violated by the exercise of the power of 
 disallowance, that great discontent has been engendered 
 there and elsewhere, and that relief has been sought at great 
 expense by that Province by the proposed construction of 
 Hudson Bay Railway. The snooess of the undertaking is 
 said to be doubtf\il ; but its auocew, though desired aa a 
 relief (torn monopoly, would damage eastern conneotions, 
 and turn another way the course of trade, 1-0 that many of 
 the predictions hon. (fontlemen have made as to the results 
 that would flow to Canada from the constraction of the 
 Paoifio Railway would not follow. Then, yoa find another 
 evidence of the anxiety to obtain relief from monopoly in the 
 revival of the Red R^ver boats. They have been revived 
 during the last year in order to provide another outlet to the 
 south. Then, you find the feeling of grievance of b«ing 
 looked in all along the line Then, tnere is the other 
 grievance, which I have pointed out before, aa to 
 fair proportionate mileage rates to places in Ontario, as 
 compared with those to places in Quebeo. We do not find 
 thttt that bat) been accomplished. A resolution was passed 
 by the Canadian Paoifio Railway Company in fulfilment of 
 the pledges given to Parliai ent. That resolution seemed 
 to be based on what were fkir grounds, thet eaoh locality 
 would get under it a just charge, but we do not find that any 
 security had been taken or any arrangement made fVom 
 which these results are to flow. If 1 am rightly informed, 
 it has been hinted that the policy of the Canadian Paoifio 
 Railway Company as to its through trafflj with the North* 
 West is to make one rate for all points for Ontario and 
 Montreal, so that whethbr it is farther or nearer Callander, 
 the same price is to be paid. I say the charge ought to 
 have regard for the neutral point to which fVeigbtis carried. 
 The Canadian Pacific Railway Company is bojnd, and 
 the Government is bound, to enfbrce the rule that 
 freight carried fVom a point one or two handred 
 miles beyond Callander may be carried cheaper than freight 
 from a point two or throe hundred milei beyond Callander. 
 Now, I maintain that the poliny hon. gentlemen have 
 advoeate4»,nnd the pledges thoy have made, upon whkh 
 they obiained the assent of tbe House and the ooantry. 
 have fftiled. We have paid enormously; a vast capital 
 account has been created, which will burden for many 
 ffeneratloM tli^ finances of the country. The policy of 
 boom, tb^ policy of expenditure, the policy of unpre- 
 cedented rapid construction, has not produced those 
 tangible results that were promised to us. It has been 
 accompanied by a great increase of cost to this country 
 without the return it was pledged to us would take plaoo 
 from the sales of lands, without the prospect of that return, 
 ami without those other advantages it was said would flow 
 fh>m it We have paid for the Canadian Paoifio Railway, 
 inoluding surveys and the Canad» Central subsidy, about 
 160,000,000; the company has realised from oar lands, sitea 
 and bonuses tU>uai $11,000,000 ; we are about to give tiieaa 
 for land merely, over tiO,000,UOO; thus their receipts from 
 
 Kblio reaouccee foot up to about 181,000,000, apart 
 m 14(750,000 oorea pt land which -are te reOMJn^ 
 
9 
 
 with tho company, and 112,000,000 or 114,000,000 on- 
 gaged in oxtonnion achumcH. IK'nidun thoNo, Iho com- 
 J any h«H bi)rritwod from tho piihlic, on dt'liontuicH, 
 35,000,ti00, making a total in car-h and woikH of f i I'i.nOD,. 
 000 which Iho r(>iii|)any huH received witiiout tnucliliif^ a 
 dollar of capital ntock. Then thuru Ih tho 'rtnuo of capital 
 Htook tx) tho uraouut of |<i6,000,OUO, lor which tho company 
 received |2{»,r)(i0,000, makingn total received of $U:),f\(l(»,ilO;», 
 which haH been expended in Homo way, and tho company 
 Ih now BHking to borrow Homothing approximating to 
 $29,000,000 more, becauHo the borrowing power in to bo 
 |2 an Auro on itti remaining land grant, although out of 
 that are to bo paid thoHO land grunt bond-i which uro out- 
 standing. How much more In to bo oxpondod we know 
 not; wo have no Hchomo, wo huvo no statomont, but wo 
 learn that a lar^o incrooHo of capital \n wanted and wo :tre 
 aaked to aathorme that incroaHo. Formerly wo were fur- 
 nished Htatomenttt, rotarnM, accountH, but that has all pasHcd 
 away now. Wo aro Himply told they want more money, 
 and we aro asked to authorise an incroasoof capital. Whore 
 haa all this money gone ? An enormous sum has gone to 
 dividend ; largo sums have gone in noodloss, reckless, hasty 
 and premature construction. To dividends has gono, paid 
 and secured, about 921,000,000. Tho Algoma branch, which 
 was built, as everybody now knows, ontiroly prematurely, 
 because it has nover been completed, and is lyjng thero 
 with tho rails rusting and unused, cost t2,r)00,000,'ontailing 
 a charge on tho shareholders of tho company of some 11 or 
 12 per cent, per annum ; and tho main lino has bjon built 
 at greatly enhanced cost in consequonoo of tho speed. I 
 remember having boon ridiculed when 1 said that speed 
 meant cost; even the company repudiated the notion that 
 tho speed would entail any additional expenditure, but now 
 the hon. tho Minister of Finance, as an excuse, doclaros the 
 road could not bo built at this rate of speed without costing 
 much more. I recollect well an official statement from tho 
 company and one from tho chief official engineer of tho 
 Government, which amounted to the declaration that tho 
 piece of permanent lino in British Columbia, to which 
 tho hon. gentleman referred as being a charge on the 
 unearned subsidy, had boon estimated in tho company's esti- 
 mate to cost 60 percent, morothanit would if built slower. 
 Under these circumstances, wo tind tho Goveriimont com- 
 ing down today, with all their promises as to tho rosultHof 
 their land grant policy, all thoir promises at to tho result of 
 their immigration policy and their railway construction 
 policy, falsified by events, with an empty exchequer, hav- 
 ing abandoned the prospect of recouping the people for tho 
 expenditure on tho Canadian Pacific Railway out of tho 
 North-Wost land — wo find them coming down with this 
 
 !)roposition. The hon. gentleman says it is different from 
 brmer propositions and need not involve a groat deal ol 
 disousBion. True, we wore told every cent of tho loan 
 would be repaid, and now wo aro asked to compromise by 
 accepting 66f cents cash and our own land for the 
 balance ; bat still the hon. gontloman says the proposition 
 is an advantageous one. Why, ho says, it has boon proved 
 that the security on the land is admirable. Tho hoii. 
 gentleman has realised his interest out of it and is able lo 
 realise more, and therefore ho thinks tho land is paying 
 so well that, instead of holding a mortgage on it, 
 on which he can only get his money, ho had better have 
 the profits of its proprietorship and make $15,000,000 
 instead of $10,000,000 I No, it is advantageous ; but tho 
 advantage is to tho shareholders of tho Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, Ibeoauso you substitute for the charge upon 
 them and their enterprise of $400,000 a your interest and 
 the ultimate payment of $10,000,000, tho ro-transfor to the 
 country of the claim of the Canadian Pacific Railway to 
 some 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 acres of land . Tho hon. gentle- 
 man cannot sell his land just now, and he cannot give it 
 away, he has been able to put no more than 138 homesteaders 
 
 on 400 miles of the forty-eight milo bolt of the Canadian 
 Piiuitic Railway up to tho 31xt December Inst, and oh bo 
 t'liiiriiit Holl the millions of acres and cannot give the iand 
 aw:iy, he niiiNt engage in aomo land operation, so he buys land 
 liuck at $1 .fiO at) acru, and says : " This is so uloarly in the 
 interests of tho (Country, that wo need not debate it." No ; 
 the Mhiirohi)lilorH want a larger share of protitM ; they want 
 iho$K)0,0()0 a year which otherwise they would have to 
 pay, and tho (capital of which would have to be paid some 
 ilay or other by thorn, and as it is now ploin they cannot 
 gel the amount out of tho lands, because tlie land seourity 
 which tho (rovcrnmcnt took on tho whole land grant is not 
 ailoquato to jiro.luco 4 per cent, on tho $10,000,0(10, wo are 
 to tuke over this fraction ab'olutcly in lieu of tho $10,000,000 
 and to provide tho intorost t'loreon. I said I bus- 
 ])eclod this was contemplated. The method which hon, 
 gentlemen have pursued gave ground for suspicion. When 
 thoy wantel to persuade us to lend tho Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Company $20,000,000, they offered us, they said, 
 undoubted security for tho interest at 5 por cent. They got 
 tho money on thoso terms and then asked us to reduce the 
 rate to 4 per cent. And having succeeded in getting the rate 
 reduced, their next stop, one no doubt secretly agroed upon 
 with tho company, was to bringdown tho proposition before 
 us. I was inclined to suspect they would do this. 1 was 
 inclined to suspect that having told us wo had a mortgage 
 on the land, that it was admirable security, that we were 
 going to got principal and interest, we would find the Fin- 
 ance Minister standing up and saying : This is really cost- 
 ing us more than 4 por cent., we aro actually losing 
 money, and thoro is a groat doal of difiSonlty 
 about tho land grant arrangements ; thoy may inter- 
 fore with tho sale of tho Dominion lands and 
 with tho prospects of tho North-Wost ; having aocus- 
 tomod us to thoso things by degrees, what tho Government 
 could not do tho year before thoy doom themselves able to 
 do now. And so thoy bring down tho proposition to-day 
 which thoy woro afraid, or which thoy did not choose to 
 bring down, a year ago. I do not intend to enter upon 
 some of tho details upon which tho hon. gentleman said ho 
 would give explanations in tho committee. It seems to me 
 that tho proj)OHal, in tho condition of tho lands of tho North- 
 Wost, in tho condition which is jiroclaimod of this com- 
 pany, that tho pooplo of Canada should rotako six or seven 
 millions of ucros of this land of theirs at this price, and 
 incur this increase in our net debt and this increase in our 
 annual chargo, is one that ought not to commend itself 
 lo tho House or to tho people. There is one other 
 topic not immediately connected with tho other topics 
 contained in those resolutions, though Sowing, 1 
 judge, in tho Minister's opinion, from them, to which 
 I wish to address myself for a moment or two 
 before I sit down. I refer to tho removal of the share- 
 holders' disqualification for seats in Parliament. Does the 
 hon. gontloman think tho shareholders of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway Company aro not powerful enough in this 
 House as it is ? Does ho think it absolutely necessary to 
 give thorn tho additional power which would be involved in 
 tho mombors of this Houso being shareholders in this com- 
 pany? This has also boon pressed for some time past upon 
 tho Government by tho company. This company is going 
 for some years to como to have questions between it and the 
 country for settlement, questions connected with its tariff, 
 very important questions connected with its capital account, 
 questions connected with the monopoly policy, questions 
 connected with tho extension policy, questions connected 
 with tho grants of various kinds, and all these questions 
 have to be settled, I hope, upon just and equitable terms 
 between tho country and the railway company ; but they 
 are not questions a just or equitable adjustment of which 
 will bo facilitated or furthered by making this a Parliament 
 of Canadian Pacific Railway shareholders. I do not believo 
 
I 
 
 w 
 
 that this is at all a time to relax the stringanoy of the laws 
 regaiating the independeDoe of Parliament. If any ohanse 
 were proper to be made in those safogaards, it wonld be 
 one to increase them very largely. Oar institations in this 
 regard are very maoh npon their trial ; and for my part I 
 ■hrU not record a vote to diminish in any degree the pre- 
 
 sent seoorities for the indepondenoe of Parliament by 
 agreeing that the shareholders in this ereat oorporation, 
 who win for many years have bo mach to do of an important 
 and vital character with the Government and the people of 
 Canada, shall sit in Parliament and vote apon matters in 
 which they are so mach concerned. 
 
 Printed by MaoIous, Boaw k'fio^ Parliamentary Printers, Wellington Street, Ottawa. 
 
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