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^^^m. 
 
 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES, 
 
 3rd session, 8tii PARLIAMENT, CANADA. 
 
 SPEECHES 
 
 DELIVERED T.Y THE 
 
 lon.PfSSi'S. Curric, ^epour, mii ^mpaw, 
 
 MEMBERS Cr THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, 
 
 ON THE 
 
 SURJECrr OF the confederation of the BRITISH 
 NORTH AMERICAN PROVINCES. 
 
 Ciucbct: 
 PRINTED BY HUNTER, ROSE & CO, 2G, ST. URSULE STREET. 
 
 18G5. 
 
£-■ t . — :- '—^ 
 
 C2 ^ -^ ^ 
 
 OEC201944 
 

 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 
 
 ON THE 
 
 SUBJECT OF THE CONFEDERATION OF IHE BRITISH 
 NORTH AMERICAN PllOVINC^ES. 
 
 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, i 
 
 TuESPAV, Ith Ffhrtwrij, 1805. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBKFiL said that .yester- 
 day lie hnd pnmiiwd to t;ivc to tlu-. 
 
 IIouFC 
 to-day ail cxphiiation of the iirovisum con- 
 tained iu tlie 1-Uh resolution relating to tlie 
 selection of member.'; for the Legislative 
 Council of the Gcncial Legislature. This 
 resolution read as follows : — 
 
 11. The first selection of the Mcmlnn-s of the 
 Lo'islativo Coiiucil shall he made, except as re- 
 L'i«,°ds Prince I'^Jwani Island, from the Lejjisla- 
 tive Councils oi the various Provinces, so far a.- 
 H snilieieiit number l)e found qualified and wil- 
 ling to serve ; such Members shall bo appointed 
 1)T tlie Crown at the n'oommi'ndation of the 
 (jeiieral Hxecutive GoveniineMt, upon the nomi- 
 nation of the respective Local OovernmenU, and 
 in such nomination due regard Hliall he liad to 
 the claims of the Members of the Ijej^islativc 
 Council of the Opposition in each Province, so 
 that all political parties may as nearly as possible 
 bo fairly represented. 
 
 And under it the lirst rcconnnendatiou for 
 the appointment of Legislative CouncillorB 
 from Canada would, should the Confederation 
 Kchcmc be adopted, come from the existing 
 (Jovcrnment of this province. In making 
 f-uch recommendations, the spirit of the reso- 
 lution would be carefully observed, and both 
 fides in this House and as well life as elected 
 meirbers, be equally considered and fairly re- 
 presented in the new Parliament. 
 
 Hon. Mu.FLINT begged to in(iuire whether 
 the resolutions before the House were in all 
 respects the same as those sent to the members. 
 Ho.v. Me. CAMPBELL said they were not 
 in one particular precisely as first printed, 
 there being a clause in those before the House 
 to allow New Brunswick to impose a duty on 
 timber and logs, and Nova Scotia on coal, 
 
 which wa? not fonnc! in ihc first ; ns for tho 
 other provinces, the imposition of such duties 
 wan reserved to the General Legislature. 
 (Hear, hear, from Jlr. CniRlK.) 
 
 Hon. Mil. CAMPBE! J. sn.idhe hoped that 
 honorable members would i ather ahl in uirtiicr- 
 ing the scheme tiian take pleasure in detect- 
 in" the supposed causes of opposition. (Hear.) 
 Hon. Mn. CIIRUIE asked whether the de- 
 ference between the two sets of resolutions 
 was merely a misprint. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL (ould not say 
 whether it was owing to a misprint or to an 
 error in the manuscript. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE again asked whether 
 the members of the Conference had not signed 
 the instrument containing its resolutions? 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL could only say that 
 the resolutions now before the House truly 
 and expressly represented the conclusions the 
 Conference had arrived at. (Hear, hear.) 
 Those conciuBions had not been changed. 
 
 Hon. Mk. CURRIE then rose and said 
 that the measure now before the House was 
 the most important one ever submitted to a 
 Colonial Legislature, and he hoped to be able 
 CO approach it with entire freedom fron, party 
 spirit, and without the purpose of finding out 
 unnecessary objections. He hoped he woald, 
 at all times, be able to judge of the measures 
 presented with the fairness and candour ot a 
 Canadian and a British subject. At the out- 
 set he would, however, say, that the project 
 now before the House had taken the country 
 by surprise. The first time he had ever ad- 
 dressed the House lie was rci>orted to liavc 
 spoken thus: — 
 
 That by a courw of le^fislatioii alike moderate, 
 prudent and upright, it will vet ho the lot of some 
 present to live and see the day when Canada will 
 [)0 the centre of a noble British North Amencaii 
 Conlederacy ejtendiui; from iho Atlantic to the 
 
Pacific— a Confederacy not born ^i war, or bap- I that in the event of aggression on the part of 
 
 tised in blood, but a Confedorary united by 
 
 th'^ bonds of friendship, hold to;;pthor by the 
 
 (.trong ties of friendly cnminerce and mutual 
 
 iiitoa'Sti, and cemented by a ;omu'.oii allogianco 
 
 to the throne of Great Britain. 
 
 From thi? (|Uotation it would W <;ccn that 
 
 then ho war in favor of a Confederatidn of tlio 
 
 sovcrnl Britii'h North American Tniviiicp-, but 
 
 he little thought then that within two sliort 
 
 years such a scheme would be submitted to 
 
 Parlinmeut. Tie was still in fiivor of Confeder- 
 ation — (hear) — but it must be a Confederation 
 
 founded on a just and ctiuitable basis, upon 
 
 principles which would be alike advant:i::c(us 
 
 to all parts and injurious to none. If any 
 
 other kind of Confederation were r.j^^reed upon. 
 
 it would C'inlain within itself the seeils of 
 
 decay and dissolution. The project had been 
 
 elaborately presented to tlie House by the ,i;al- 
 
 lant kni^'ht at the head of the fioverument, 
 
 and by bis able colleague, the Hon. Comnii^- 
 
 siouer^_of Crown Lauds, and what reasons had 
 
 they alleged in favor of it? lie coures>ed he 
 
 had been quite surprised at some of tlie urgu- 
 
 meuts of tiie former. That hon. gentleman 
 
 had stated that if the scheme were rejected, 
 
 whether we would or would not, Canada 
 
 would be forced by violence into the Ameri- 
 can Union, or placed upon an inclined plane 
 
 which would carry us there. Now when men 
 occupying high positions like the hoii. mem- 
 ber, assumed the responsibility of giving ut- 
 terance to such startling opinions, they ought 
 to be prepared to support tli"m with very 
 cogent reasons. 
 
 Hon. SlK E. r. TACIlf:— I am c,uite rc:idy 
 to give them. 
 
 Hon. Mu. CUIUUE— If the case were as 
 represented, it must be becau.-;e we arc quite de- 
 fenceless, and that except in union with the 
 Lower Provinces we were at the mercy of the 
 United States. But wliat did the honorable 
 member mean by,the inclined plane ? For his 
 partjie had not heard of any desire on the part 
 of the people of this jiroviuce to change tluir 
 political institutions and turn from the glorious; 
 flag under which many of them liaJ fought 
 and bled. Had anything been heard from 
 abroad, to the effect that unless we accepted 
 this scheme, England would east us off or let 
 us slide down the inclined plane ? (Laughter) 
 Yet these were the sole, or at least the chief, 
 reasons alleged by that honorable member. 
 Let U8 then ask ouroelves whether the scheme 
 provided :t renieily for the threatened evils. 
 Would Canada indeed be .-o physically strength- 
 ened sea-ward and laud-ward by this alliance, 
 
 the United States, we would be rendered quite 
 sate? It wa.s e.isy to say tliat union gave 
 strength, but woubl this union really give ns 
 strength? He could understand that union with 
 a petiple contiguous would do so, but union 
 with provinces l,.'jOO miles apart at the ex- 
 treme ytoints, wns a very different thing, and 
 more lii ely to be a source of weakness. In 
 his mind it was like tying a small twine at 
 the cnil of a lari:e rope ami saying it strength- 
 ened tlie v.iiolt; line. When the honorable 
 member said that Canada w>>uld be supported 
 by all the military jiower of the Lower Prov- 
 inces, we should not run away with the idea 
 that this meant anything. VVhat were the 
 facts? Upon looking at the census of those 
 provinces lie found that the male jiopulation 
 Ijctwecn the ages of 'Jl and 'iO — the extreme 
 limits at which men bore arms — was lUS,-!.')?, 
 of which number tKi,2S:> Avcre chiefly employed 
 on the water, that is, in the coasting trade and 
 the iisherics, leaving (ir),000 to assist in the de- 
 fence of Canada. (Hear, hear.) Now, sup- 
 pose a dralt of oue-third of these was made 
 lor military exigencies — and one-third w<^uld 
 lie a large proportion — we would have less 
 than 22,000 men available for the service. 
 Wliy, that would not be enough to defend 
 their own froi.(i(.r from aggression. Witliont 
 referring to the causes which had led to the 
 formation of the pre.-cnt Government, or to 
 the extraordinary conduct ot some of the pub- 
 lic men composing it. lie must nevertheles-i 
 allude to the express objects they professed to 
 have in view in coming together. And the 
 principal object was a scheme of federation, 
 liut not tlie scheme now offered to the House. 
 If he understiMid the matter at all, the Gov- 
 criunent was organized on the basis of a Con- 
 federation of Upper and Lower Canada first, 
 in which Ci>nfederatiou tiu^ Lower Provinces 
 miiihl ;iiterwards be admitted if they wished it. 
 llo.v. .Mit. CA.MPBELL— Not so. 
 Ho.N. .Mr. CUr.lUE— He was not surprised 
 at the liissent of the Honorable Commissioner 
 of Crown Lands, for the leaders in both 
 Houses had placed the bnger object, that is 
 tlie organi;:atiou of ;i geiu-ral Confederation, 
 as the primary one. i»ut the basis of the 
 organization had l"vn reduced to writing, and 
 he" held in his hand the paper which recapitu- 
 lated the cimditions. They were as follows: — 
 '• The Government arc prepared to pledge 
 thcnibelvcs to bring in a measure, next session, 
 fov the purpose of removing existing dilTiculties 
 by introducing tlie Federal principle into 
 Canad;;, coupled with such provision us will 
 
= ^ 
 
 permit the Mnritirae Provincos and the North- 
 West Territory to be incorporfttcJ into the same 
 i«v»tcni of flovorninent." 
 " Hon. Mil. CAMl'BKLIi— ThcroBolutions 
 
 nil the table I'uUillecl tliat j.roiuiso. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CUUIUK— Well, the bonorfible 
 member's coUoapue, the I'rehidout of the Coun- 
 cil, (lid not mention the Lower Province.- othei- 
 wl.se tlinii incidentally :it the ^'reat nieetiiij^ in 
 South Oxford, and the Intercolonial Uailway 
 notfttall. If his position (Hon. Mr. Cliuuk's) 
 Wits correct, that the Cdifederation of Canada 
 alone was the basis of the coalition, then they 
 hail not carried out their [>led|.'e, uiid he pro- 
 nounced the tichcme now proj^Kjundcd us the 
 production of ;v number of self-appointed 
 delegates, and not the uiea.sure the country 
 expected. Thci. he had been «urpri:jed to 
 lind that in the Coufertnco (.'auadii had so 
 Huiall a reprcseulation. He very williu-ly 
 admitted that we had very able men there, 
 but they were few compare 1 witli tlio whole 
 numbe;- of the Conference, and did not fairly 
 npreseut the population and wealth of the 
 c.iuntry. The Honuiable Commissioner <if 
 Crown J-nnds had said, to be .sure, that it did 
 not make much ditfeience a-, the voles were 
 not taken bv numbers but by tl:e pro\iiiee>; 
 ill other words, th.it J'rinee Kdw,.rd Maud, 
 with its population of JS(»,U'm ^oiils, lind as 
 much to say as Canada with its millions. 
 
 Hon. JIk. CAMPBELL— The two .ac- 
 tions of Canada voted separately. 
 
 Hon. M«. CITRIUK— That wa^ not murh 
 better, lor it made Prince Ivlwa-d Island 
 equal to LTpperCan.'ida. with nearly 1,5UO,(IOO 
 of population, liut all this apart, he main- 
 tained the country was not prepared^ to pa.ss 
 judgment upon this momentous question. It 
 was the greatest matter that had ever been 
 presentiii for its consideration, and it should 
 be the aim of all to havi^ it perfectly under- 
 stood and approved of before it was adopted.. 
 We should seek to frame :i Constitution which 
 would last for ages. If any portion of the 
 eoue.try were seriously opposed to the project, 
 and It were curried tlirougb in spite of them, 
 ,1 wrong woidd be iniiicted which woiild per- 
 petuate itself in all coming' time. Lf passed 
 auiainst the sense of ti luijorily of Cpper or 
 Lower Canada, the act might lead to an agi- 
 tation such as had never been witnessed, and 
 which might be fraught with the most disas- 
 trous consequence!!. To prove that the coun- 
 try was not prepared for this sudden change, 
 he would aisk how many public meetings hnd 
 been held in Upper Canad.i fur the pnrp.se of 
 discu.ssim* it'.'' He had heard of but one, and 
 
 that not very influential, where both sides of 
 the question were di.vussed. Th'^ [icople had 
 in fact been waiting for the p'ograniuie, nud 
 to this moment it had not been supplie I— cer- 
 tainly not iu all its details. In ii matUT of 
 this momentous importanee, up<>n which the 
 well-being of millieiis in the future might so 
 much dejicnd, hcfciucerely trusted ihee.iuiitry 
 would not be hurried, but that full time for 
 discussion would bo 'Awn to enable ii loarriTO 
 at a safe verdict. (Hear.) It w;w said tliat 
 all the Uovcrniuenl.s interested were in faror 
 of the project, ami it was well known that 
 there w.w to be a dis.<oluliou «;f Parliament 
 in one of the province.* ; il so, where was the 
 necessity for haste iu Canada, unless indeed 
 it was for the purpose of unduly infiueuciug 
 the other provinces ? Wheu the union 
 between Upper anil Lower Canada was 
 cflVcted, there had been no fueh impatience 
 of delay. The lmiK.iial (Joveniinent hud 
 brought in a bill, copio of which were Hcnt 
 out, and submitted to the Parliament of L'pi»er 
 Canada — Lower Canada then had no Parlia- 
 ment to consult, and in its c.ise ihirr wa- less 
 need of delay than now -the liill was sent 
 home again approved, though nu'i lings wire 
 held in Lower Canada stroiiirly opposed to the 
 mea,-ure, and to liii- i! y it is s.;ld it w.i.-^ 
 I'lieed ujxm Tiii unwilliii;; jH.'opK . (Hoar, 
 hear, I'rom .-Home of the French mcndiers.j 
 If time was then :illo\vi.d, why hliould not 
 time be allowed now, when a much more im- 
 portant union was in (question ? ( llear, hear.) 
 ILid the views o'.' such emiuent men ag Lord 
 liUcnborough and Lord Durham 'jecn duly 
 appreciated in l^j'J, this I'arliaiiicnt would 
 nut now be met for the purpoae of dissolving 
 a union which had been unprotitable to one 
 section, and uusatisfactory to the other. 
 (Hear, hear, derisively.) lie wouid now take 
 tlij liberty to quote the views of Lord Dur- 
 ham, to which he had just alluded. They 
 were us follows : 
 
 1 am uveiJie to «v«iy plan that has l)eou pio- 
 po.seJ lor givi.i^ uu cnual luimbfii' of nifcraber. to 
 tlie two I'roviuccd, iu ordsr to olilaiii tlic teinpoi- 
 aiy end el' out ninuhuriiiL; llic Ficuch, beeaiibu I 
 think the .sainu oUjcet uill \k' oblaiiiuU without any 
 violation of tbe principles of lupiesentalion, and 
 without any such appeaiaiite of injustice in liie 
 scheme, as would set public opinion both in Eiii.^- 
 land and America stivu.;iy agaii,«t it; and 
 bccaube, wu'jn e: .i^'ialion shall have increased 
 tbe English population in the L'pper .l'iu\ine(', the 
 adoption of sucli a priucipli; v.dulj ojierate to 
 d'.foat this very purpose it i? inleudul to servo. 
 It appcaw to nu' liiat any siuh eh i liic arraiiL'e 
 m«nt founded on the piesent fro. iuriai Divisions 
 
ff 
 
 wouM 'ci.d to defeat the pnrpos* of rnion, tad 
 perjiotrat.t tb<» i'lca of disun-on. 
 
 He cited thcso prcpnant wordu «o indifitc 
 fho diiiij;.-!- of resoriirjg to temporary expe- 
 dients IWr ilie purpose of oTcrcoming KraTO 
 difficuUus. If li'ti. lucinbors desired to c«- 
 tiihlish » union under which the proTJncoM 
 (vo.iid ;;'row in wealth, power and importance, 
 they must endeavor to malic it as nearly infal- 
 lible as fcllible men could. He had already 
 remarked th«t there had been but little dis- 
 cu.ssion in Upper Canada on this subject, and 
 he felt it ill became him, representing, as ho 
 did. H lirge eonctituency, to 'olfl approbation 
 bi'forc the people undcriJtood what the Totc 
 involved. In the Ijower Prorinees tho people 
 iin.l ih<' pre.-H seemed nlive to the subject, for 
 the latter tcemcilwith articlcsi for and against, 
 all tendinij; to give information which our 
 |«.pul-ition had not received, But specikiiig ^ 
 of the liKwer Provinces*, ho wai* really afraid j 
 that .<oiiie public men down there were dis- ; 
 poieil to ciagj^erate the advantagcH of a union ^ 
 with Canada, just ns some of ours scorned prone 
 to iiiaynify the rieheH of the Lower ProymreH. j 
 If we were j,'oiug into a partnership, whieh he , 
 hoped wuuldlastif entered into— (hear, hear,) I 
 —we should notatUimpt to deceive each other, ] 
 for if the people found they had been deceived, 
 the eoinpiet would be shortlived. To give 
 honorable meniber.s some idea of the manner 
 in which the ,'ul)joct w.is presented by leading 
 men in the provinces, ho would read them an 
 extract from the .speech of » Mr. L^ jiCU, at a 
 large meeting in llalifax, »» reproduced by 
 one of the organs of t'.iu (loveruuient there. 
 lIo.N. .Mil. CAMPJJiiLL— Whiit organ? 
 Ho.N. Mr. CUKUIE— They had so many 
 organs they did not seem to know them all. 
 (Laughter.) He would now road from the 
 ^;peeeh in (juestion ; — 
 
 But wo are lolJ 1)/ olhori that w« had belter 
 have nothing to do with Caiiaila, becauio kU* is 
 haiikruiil. C.vnaih b ink rapt ! I wish we were 
 :ill sueli bankrupts. .Sue is oreriiowin^ with 
 wealth. This u now nijiiillT dculoping itfislf, 
 iuid muiU e\e.itually i)liice Ler among the tiriit 
 nalions of the earth. I havu travelled over and 
 e.xamined thai great ciuiitr)', and it would take 
 more than all the time allotted to me to tell yi>u 
 of her wealth ..ad rciuurce*. Iler rivers are 
 among the largest in the world, and her lakes 
 are mi.L^hty inland oceans. I never had any idea 
 of their extent until I stui.d im llic shore of Lake 
 Erie, saw before me a large S'l'Jure rigged ship, 
 and was told that such was the elans of vessels 
 that navi;,MtC'd those waters. Why, sir, 7,000,000 
 tiins of shi;.piiu' l;a'!e upon those mighty lake*. 
 Again, looic at the ^'rowth jf th«! poi)ulation. 
 Sixty years a>,'a it was 60,000, now it i» 3,000,000. 
 
 Upper Canada doubled her popul.ation in ten 
 years, and Tnronto, in the bc;;inning of this 
 century tiie abod* of the red man of the forest, is 
 now cue of th.' finest cities of lintish America, 
 with a population of 40,060. The soil is of the 
 richest description, imleed it is only too much so. 
 In some places rich alluvial deposit is found to 
 the depth of r.# feet, and in m.iny instances lands 
 have yii-lded their crops for rears without the aid 
 of a spadeful of manure. Canada has not only 
 the greatest yield but the best wheat in America. 
 It is a well-known fact that the people of the 
 United States in exportinR their best flour mix it 
 to a larc;e extent with Canadian wheat, and in 
 order to give you an idea of the incresged g.-nvrth 
 of it I would inform y n that while in ten yeirs 
 the wheat crop increased in the States 60 per 
 cent, (an immen.se inrroase), it in the same time 
 in Canada increased 4»0 per cent. The average 
 crop i^ equal to that of the best wh«at growinu 
 countries in Ilurope, while some places have 
 yielded tlie tili.io'i incredible quanlitT of 100 
 bushels 10 t':c a- ic. The yield i,f Issl year was 
 2T,00(!. 
 
 Ho only wished that this honorable gentle- 
 ii..->r. al )ne had been mistaken, but e\en the 
 .lou.Mr. Tll.I.EY, oneof tlie most distingui.sbed 
 statesmen ol" New Brunswick, had made the 
 statement that our tariff was in fact imly an 
 I eleven pi r cent, tariff. But all the errors were 
 not on that side, lor they need but turn to a 
 celebrated spcecli of ono of onr own leading 
 men — a speech regarded almost (w* an important 
 state paper — and there it wa.s stated that the 
 United Provinces would become the third 
 mtritime power iu the worhl. (Hear, Hear.) 
 England, it said, w;is first, then the United 
 States, and the speaker doubted if France 
 could take the third rank before its. Our 
 sea-going tonnage would be five mil'ions, and 
 our lake tonnage seven millions. Thesc> were 
 vast figures, and it almost bewildered the mind 
 to conceive their magnificent proportions, 
 (liaughter.) Now supposing all the.^ vcsst^ls 
 were 600 tons each, it would require 1-I,(i0(> 
 to make up the sum, but unfortunately the 
 census showed that we bad but 808 sailors to 
 navigate them — rather a small number it must 
 be admitted for 14,000 ship.s. (Great laugh- 
 ter.) Ti;e way the mistake — to use the mildest 
 expressioa — was made, wtis simple enough. 
 The vessels were entered at the Cusl<mi 
 Houses every time they cime iu and left port, 
 and as some of them came into port 200 times 
 in the year, iw at Toronio for instance, their 
 tonnage was counted 200 times. It was easy 
 in this way to ruu up our inland marine to 
 seven millions of tons. But then if the pro- 
 ducts of Canada were as g.eat as Mr. Lyncu 
 repregented, why of course wo would require 
 
» A 
 
 
 !f 
 
 ^11 those Hliips to carry ai^oy all that wheat, 
 (lior.r, hear, and hiuirhter.) Ho wouM }^' 
 glad if ho cinilj toll n.s fine a story, but ho 
 fould not do thiit and at the same time tell 
 thi! truth. Tlien the Lower Piovinces rreie 
 told that our tariff averaj^^d eleven per cent., 
 hut wa.s it so '/ [The honorable member was 
 iu're (|Uotin<; I'rom a spcccli of Hon. Mr. 
 Tii.i.EY, to which he h.id l)eforc alluded.] 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSS— Road on. 
 
 Hon. Mr CURRIK, rculinu ^n, imme- 
 diately camo to a paragnipii cxplainin,; the 1 1 
 IX!r cent, to uic.in the as'eraj^o of duties on the 
 value of ail imported ;iood9, a lar<^e proportion 
 of which were duty free. 
 
 Hon. Mr. IIOSS— The jtatemcHt waa o»r- 
 rect. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Hon. MR.CURRTKthfnproaeedod to show 
 the truth in regard to the dntic-s on itaples 
 and articles in domestic use in Canada. Ho 
 said if honorable ^rentlenien would turn to the 
 Trade and Navi}»ation returns for 18(54, they 
 would find that in the first half of that year 
 we imported and paid the foUowiu;,' duties on 
 lidit kinds of comniodities : 
 
 Value. Duty. 
 
 Cottons $:!,2i V.'Jti') $C4t,3Sl 
 
 Wouk'iia ';, J37,G(ii) •19'J,08 J 
 
 Ti'ii, Ibd., ;t,04S,0G7 l,05U,07t i:t:.,128 
 
 1 1-1)11 and hardware 7"(!,225 151 .422 
 
 Lmon 421,0i;i S4,i3f. 
 
 HatsnndCaps 2><l,l'J7 S.^OIS 
 
 Sii^ror .77'J,'.i07 376,lt<'J 
 
 Suj,'ar, relinod 9,'.)88 G,260 
 
 Coffee, green 8U,01C 20,449 
 
 $2,112,503 
 
 Thus hoii. gentlemen would see wc pay 
 more than fil'ty per cent, on our suc;ar, nearly 
 twenty-three per cent, on coffee, while upon tea 
 we pay uboDt twenty-six per cent. He was 
 afraid that if the present condition of Canada 
 was calmly considered wc would be found 
 iroing into the union in a ^tatc far different 
 from the Rowing representations of Hon. Mr. 
 Lyn'ch. Let lion, members look at the trade 
 of Canada for half of tlie year 18o4, and they 
 would find that the balance against ua was 
 rf;),ltl)0,O0O. Then there was the interent 
 upon the public debt ; interest upon loan« to 
 private individuals; bank dividends payable 
 al)road, for much of the stock of our banks 
 was held out of the province ; the iutcrcBt to 
 loan companies and others ; all to be added to 
 the debit balance, and the picture of wealth 
 conjured up 't'ould present a very different as- 
 pect. Indeed, he Wondered how, with all (liose 
 burdens, the country had borne up so well. — 
 
 In the next place, he objected to the manner iu 
 which tiic scheme haJ been hroui;ht d- rn. 
 Why, if ihc (iovornniont desired the Houm«tii 
 vot.j favorably, did they not 't ami sjH'ak 
 undcrstamllngly / W!iy did the,, not at once 
 bring in the schemes for the local (;ovornmeiils 
 and the estinmti>d cost of iho Intercolonial 
 Uailw.ny ? Ho (Hon. Mr. Ct'RRjK) did not ob- 
 ject to the princip!- of Conft deration. (Hetir 
 hear.) No, and he believed there would be 
 the moKt perfect unanimity on the subject, as 
 t. ere wa« among the delegates as to the prin 
 eiplo of Confederation, but he a>ked to have, 
 as part of the scheme, the ci-.sl of the railway, 
 whicii seemed tc be part and parcel of it. We 
 knew little of this project, where ii w.is t.» 
 commence and where to end , or how many end* 
 it was to have. Wo heard tiiere was to be ono 
 branch from Truro to Pictou ; and then it was 
 said again that the mad must piss t'lroMgh the 
 valley of the St. John, and end in that city. 
 Were we to accept the project without infoni'- 
 ation ? 'iVcre wc to have a road to Halifax? 
 to purchase the (« rand Trunk to Rivi,Nro du 
 Loup and the link from Truro t ) Ilalif ix, all 
 of them to enter and form part of the t.ational 
 rnilway? Notwithstanding the .ulinitted talent 
 of the delegates, he tontended that a manifest 
 injustice had been done to ('au;id:i, and espe- 
 cially to Upper Canada, in the distrilmtinn o'' 
 the subsiilies to the local governments. Hni;. 
 gentlenicB must bearinmind tliat thetul-.-'idii s 
 change not with {wpulatiou, but remain fixed. 
 Thjy were as follows: — 
 
 Uppei Canada $1,1IC,S7S 03 
 
 Lower Canada H8',l,2 IS 0!) 
 
 Nova Scotia 261.003 00 
 
 New Bnir-Awick $201,000 
 
 C.1,000 
 
 2G4.000 00 
 
 Piinet Kdward Iila«d.. C4,0.'55 
 
 89,043 
 
 153,723 0« 
 
 Nrtwfoiuidlaid 98,110 
 
 270,890 
 
 3u9,000 OO 
 
 «3,LiC,S49 UO 
 
 If a pcrsoa w»* propwltog to •nU;r into a 
 partnership h« would naturally inquire into the 
 assets of the otlicr members of tlu intended 
 firm. We knew what our assets wen-. We 
 had the finest canals in tbs w«rld. (vLisU had 
 cost many millions. 
 
 H'JN. Mr. ROSS— And ihev p<,> 
 
 Hon. Mr. CUURIK— l^iaJ« toiu on ths 
 
 8t. Lawrence Canals and you will *<\; Mrhat. 
 
 they pay. There was one canal that ihdpsy. 
 
 the Wolland. In 18tU this work alone earned 
 
f 
 
 8 
 
 , net revcme of §184.280 ".O, over and aljvo 
 tl.e costs of ivpah- auJ uini.aoen.cnt , a ml u 
 V^ IcU to thai au.ouut U.o toll, umv.sely ro- 
 r.u,ded J^5t!.-474 6:5. y<.u have an amount 
 mato fiv,- por cent, on the total cxpcnd.- 
 S on tl>o ^;'enand Canal, .. shewn m the 
 lloDort of the Counnisi^ionor of Public \V orM, 
 ipTo lu;ist January. 180.2,. and . margm , 
 0'- S7,436 to the credit of thi. work. Then 
 wo had the St. Lawrance Oanalrf, and if they • 
 S not my it w..« becniHO of the extr..Ta;.ance | 
 ythfiiSgemcnt and the system o tol on 
 tho«e ^vorks. (ll.ar.)_ ^It wa. reported t at 
 some people believed if we could on y ^ 
 Confederation we would Invc enough to pay 
 fo lot the general and loc.d government. 
 'Zl 2 much Ire f. spare that ^Te would no 
 know what to do with our money. \N hat 
 touldb the revenue of the Confederation 
 T.kin^ the Tear 1803 a,> the ba.is, we find 
 ?hf ^"ventJof tbo pronosa Confederation lor 
 that year, from customs and csc" , to be as 
 follows : 
 Canada • ^n. 
 
 Prirco Edwavd Island.. lJ>^,olO 
 
 Nova Scotia *?!^]d^.. 
 
 New Brunswick tOS,-*''-' 
 
 $•,.909,320 93 
 
 2,280,752 no 
 
 $?,280,0T2 93 
 
 We will now eonsider the burdens to be 
 ...umed l.v the Confederation Interest on 
 tl„. debt of (Jan.ul:., ^^iM^i. 5U 01 ; .uteres 
 on the do>,t. of New l^"in:.wick ami Noui 
 Scotia, of $\:>M-Um\ say 8.^0.000 in- 
 terest on the debt of Newt^Hindland, o 
 8946.000, and the debt of Pnnce l^dward 
 Laud, of S-i40,G7o-$59,333. Add to thi 
 the interest on the cost ot constructing the 
 Intercolonial Railway, not less than 81 .000,000 
 vcarlv supposing it were to cost us but ?-U,- 
 000,000, and the amount to be spent yearly 
 L defensive purposes, 81,000,000. And 
 assuming that civil government and the cost 
 of le-isiation should be no more for the Con- 
 federation than for Canada, which is certainly 
 a reasonable view, we have for avd govern- 
 ment, 8430,572 47 ; for legislation, 8G-7,- 
 377 '.•2; juduos- salaries. Lower Canada, 
 8115,75.-i 55; judges' salaries, UpF^ Canada, 
 8157,690 33; emigration and quarantine, 
 §57,406 32 ; ocean and river service^ 8oll,- 
 356 40; lisihthouses and coasts, 8102,724 o; 
 fisheries. $22,758 41 ; cost of collecting revenue 
 and excise in Canada, 8401,561 41 ; local 
 subsidies to provinces. 83,056,S49 Thus 
 shewing a balance ajjainst revenue ot 83,b-o,- 
 
 781 80- and if the canak are to be enlarged, 
 
 •s promised, an additional debt nmst be created 
 of 812,000.000 for such pitrpose,— another 
 f„n;alchargcof8G00^000-orato;^lbaW 
 OLMin^t revenue ot 84,42o,«81 b.). iuese 
 Sntlemen from the ca.st were gomg o give us 
 ?he Intercolonial Railway and enlarge oir 
 canal, but if to enlarge the canals, why were 
 not the cansls put in the Constitution .-' 
 
 Hon Ml.. DICKSON-They did not want 
 to throw -old wat.-r upon it. (Laughter.) 
 
 Hon Mn. CUHRIE-Why no^ give a 
 guarantee for tl-eir enlargement? He found 
 that the desirable improvement won d cnta 
 aa expense of $12,000,000. As to the ocal 
 «nl.si(lv he regarded it as a larto, or as honcj 
 tKt to" atch flies. As to the argument 
 that the rejection of the scheme would injure 
 our credit he would ask whether the bond- 
 holJ..vs would not much Pf «/„ °^^"; S" 
 financ-al condition to one of fifteen millions 
 of increased indebtedness with nothing ot 
 value to show for it. If the people of Lng- 
 land knew that Confederation and the Inter- 
 colonial Railway me.ant an i"'''^;^f° "^^ > 
 per cent, on our tariff, they would not be .o 
 anxious for it. As to the representation m 
 L Confederated Legislative Council it was 
 proposed to give Upper Canada and Lower 
 Canada twen.y-four members each and o le 
 Lower Provinces twenty eight. Ihat is, the 
 780,000 souls in the Lower Provinees would 
 have four member, more than Ipper Canada 
 lith its niilli.m and a ludf. This proved tliat 
 
 thou'h Canada ha.l talent^^d men in the Con- 
 ference, they either forgot our interests or 
 sat the're powerless. When the Legislative 
 Council of Canada was made ^^^'^J^_ 
 honorable friend near him (Hon. Mr. Ciiui^ 
 S had stood up for the right oil PFr 
 Canada, as the Delegates should have done 
 Tn the Conferenee. On the .ccond reading of 
 the bill to change the gonstitution of the_ U gis- 
 
 tnc Dill loeiiaii^.."- -■■•-- 
 
 lativc Council, on the 14th -March, l^-^'-' — 
 
 Mr Brow!* moved, seconded by Mr. I'oi.k^, 
 That it be an instru'etiou to the Com.u tee to 
 amend the bill, hv p.ovidi..;; Umt the nieu^l.ers of 
 t"e Le llativc Colmcil shall be eleoi..d lor lour 
 years, onchalf retiring every Sf'^'i'l >'^'[- 
 ^ Mr GoiLU moved, seconded by Mr. W ii .ut, 
 That it be an instruction to the n.nm.ttee t.. 
 am ad the bill by providing that tl.<. eot>s . tuen- 
 c^s halbe arranged aecordin,' to i.o,mlat.on, 
 wiThout regard to the division line betwe... Upper 
 and Lower Canada. 
 
 Thii amendment was supported by the Hon. 
 Messrs. Aikins. Bitow.s. C.vMF.RoN, Cimis- 
 iiE, FOLKY, Freeman, Wilson and many 
 leading reformers in Upper Canada. 
 
9 
 
 And on the third reading of the bill on the 
 27tli 31 arch, — 
 
 Mr. Haktman moved, seconded by Mr. CiiRis- 
 TiE. That the bill be recommittpd to a Com- 
 loitteo of thi- whole House, with a view to ar- 
 raHf^e the electoral divisions so hi; to embrace 
 withiii each, as nearly as practicable, an r(|ual 
 lioimlalion, and without regard to a division line 
 between rpjier and Lower Canada. 
 
 This auiendiiient althousrh supported by 
 Messrs. Brown, Christie, and twenty other 
 Upper Canada nicniliers, was not carried. 
 
 If representation by population were rifrht 
 in 185fi, was it not e(|ually rig'ht in 1865? 
 But it might be said that the union was to 
 be a federal one, whereas it was no such thing. 
 It was neither federal nor lej. islative, but a 
 mongrel between both. If the representation 
 had been properly arrant^ed, th ire would have 
 been no necessity for honorable members 
 vacating their seats. In that case, Upper 
 Canada would have had 30, Lower Canada 
 '_i, and the Lowei' Provinces 18. Yesterday 
 the Honorable Commissioner of Crown Lands 
 liad given reasons for abolishing the elective 
 principle as applied to this House ; but not 
 over a year ago he had lauded the systeir., and 
 he (Hon. Mr. CJijurie) had not heard the life 
 members say a word in opposition. The 
 system had got a fair trial of eight yews, and 
 lad proved satisfactory, and would a few sclf- 
 constitufcd ddcgati .s, with a dash of the pen, 
 destroy tliat which had received the sanction 
 of the country? He was never sent to this 
 House to vote away its constitution — (hear, 
 hear) — and before endorsing any such propo- 
 sition he would ^i.sh to go to his constituents, 
 and if they siid yes, he would not oppose — 
 Oiear, hear)- but without that permission, he 
 was not going to give a vote which might 
 have the otfect of giving him his seat for life. 
 (Hear, hear.) He had heard of Lower 
 Canjida domination, but if this was the first 
 taste of eastern domination, ho wished no 
 more of it. (Hear, he;ir. and lausrhter.) 
 
 Hon. Mr. (!AMPBELL— It was not a 
 peculiarity of Canada, but the judgment ol' 
 the whole Conference. (Hear.) 
 
 Hon. Mr CURUIE— He then presumed 
 it was not the proposition of the honorable 
 meuibcr that the scat the people had given 
 him should be given to the t'rown ; but it 
 seemed he h".d passed under the domination 
 of the Ljwer Provinces. (Laucthter.) In 
 1849, the Legislature had made provision i'or 
 the support of common schools in Canada, 
 and had set aside one million acres of the best 
 lands for that noble purpose. The lands, all 
 
 2 
 
 situate in T'pper Canada, had been sold, and 
 a fund of a million :.nd a quarter accumu- 
 lated, but with another stroke of the pen this, 
 too, was to be scored out. In 18G2, the 
 Government of the day had brought down a 
 bill to amend the Separate i^chool Act of 
 Upper Canada, and without expressing an 
 opinion as to its merits, he might say it had 
 produced a very strong feeling ol" indignation, 
 A mass meeting w.is held in Toronto to con- 
 demn the bill, and the people were so exas- 
 perated that they had called upon certain 
 niember.s of the Government to resign. Other 
 meetings were held, viz. : — 
 
 Meeting ;it Harrington, North Oxford, 25th 
 March, 18G3: 
 
 iJeso/ivrf,— That the Hon. W. Macdoigai i. 
 has butrayi'd the interests ol' his constituents for 
 the sake of otlite. 
 
 Meeting at East Nissouri, (Jth April, 1803; 
 
 Ke-iolved, — That this meeting, while viewing 
 the manner in which the Hon. Wm. Maciioi uai.i. 
 has betrayed the intive.sts of his constituents in 
 supporting Mr. .Scott's .Srpamte School Bill, be- 
 livcs it to be hi.i duty to resign his seat in the 
 l^rovinciii! Parlinment as member for the Xorth 
 Riding ol 0.\ford. 
 
 He had read these resolutions to show the 
 feeling which then prevailed, and he might 
 have ((uoted articles 'o prove that the measure 
 was regarded as a most ini()uit(ius one. He 
 would give one or two from the Globe : — 
 
 We can hardly believe that a government 
 based on the double majority, will jiermit an al 
 toiation in our common school sy.stem in deliance 
 of the vote of an Tpper Canadian majority. 
 
 March 2tHh. — The prospects of Mr. Siott's bill 
 in tlH, rpper House are not very bright. When it 
 wa.s brought up fi om the Assembly, nobody ro.se to 
 move the first reading, and Sir Ivhennk Tache, 
 who, it will be remombered, introduced this last 
 rpper Canada Separate School Hill, which passed 
 into law, wivs about to .assume this responsibility, 
 when Mr. McCkka, the newly elected Councillor 
 for the Western Division, came to the rescue. 
 
 The Sfl-UKKR then very improperly sugge.sted 
 Mr. AiKixs as the seconder, an ollice which the 
 memb'M- for the Home Division promptly declined. 
 No one else appearing, Mr. [jKTF.m.ier, a French 
 Canadii\n, seconded the motion. This is French 
 doLiination with a vengeance. We are not as- 
 touished to lind that there is a disposition to give 
 the bill strong opposition, regardless of the C!)n- 
 seijuences t3 the government. 
 
 A|iril 11th.— The bill pas.scd the second reading 
 in the Legislative Council, '1 in 1:5 ir( m I |per 
 Canada. 
 
 In spite of every temptation, I'pper Canada 
 stands true to her school system. The bill may 
 pass as other infamies have passed our Legislv 
 
i 
 
 10 
 
 tuv. before, but it will not bo by T'l-per Canada , 
 v",te.s 11- our .s.ho..l system is .k-stroyeJ, Lower 
 fMiiadiv must bi'iir the shame ot il. 
 
 April 21st.-Ahhou,<h the bill has passed 
 b.,tl Houses, and no number of meetin-s can 
 XitM'ro.nUsitiswellforthep^deot 1. 
 
 „e,- Canida to prnimmiee upon its ni.iit.. 1 ney 
 Sre deeply l^">-t a.ui uvor.i.ieJ by lh>s tr.-at.nent 
 they ha!e^ received from l.oue,. Canad.an.^ a d 
 traitors amou- their own f.-l-'-'^^^''''^'^"; ,•.',., ' e 
 of perso.ial wrons and n.jury .•x.^ts «ln h e 
 have never wilnes-^d in s.. -v>-.vt a de.'r.e befo. . 
 iC on of L >wer Canada domiruUmn seems to 
 Lve ouehed the soul of the people and the wound 
 rankle- The word contem|)t does not expr. .s 
 the tSling which i- nanifested There .saspue 
 of bitterness about .t which takes U out ot th.it 
 category. 
 
 But, notwithstandinu- these evidences .d ili>- 
 satista -tiou, the act bcc.n.o law. tmd it re- 
 „Kuned for the present (^ovenuucmt, by t s 
 .Jiou.e.to perpetuate the 1(W. li«; w..s sui- 
 piiscd that the (ioven.tnent. framed as it was. 
 should hecuie parties to such a scheme. lhe\ 
 had not vet done with the school 4ue.t,ou 
 They prolHJsed to protect the F n.tcMant 
 LoriK<^'LowerCa,K.da.audape...K.nvvas 
 
 on the table exhibiting: what was desired. 1 lu> 
 ...-IB proof enoutrh that the people were no 
 satMcd ; and whether or not the sche.ue o 
 bonfedenuion were adopted, the /."vcrnment 
 should briu- in a measure to do the V'^'"-'^ 
 ers justice. 'Then from Ippe'' ^l"!^"^", ^' 
 Roman Catholics a.sked to be placcMl ,n a posi- 
 tion precisely similar to that which the lu. 
 t«stant«of Lower Canada were seekln^^ and 
 if each of these iiiimM-ities were sutterinK •"- 
 iustice, why should not their complaints be 
 redressed before a Confederati.ni took place. 
 Let these measures prelude ( ontederat.on 
 and let not Parliameut be asked to proceed 
 blindfold. He wa. satished that .1 the Inttr- 
 colonial Railway project were taken out ot tla 
 schciue, we would m.t hear much aboiU t 
 afterwards. Som." leadm- men in Hal.tax 
 had said, •' the Railway Urst, and ( ..nledci.i- 
 
 tion next.' . ,, »i 'i',. , ,»- 
 
 Hon. Mh. SANBORN— 11"">1'- ^"'''^ 
 
 had said that. . , , , 
 
 Hon. Mr. CVRIUE-Then it would be 
 better to try the Confederation without the 
 railway. It would, after all. be much ea.ier lor 
 the members from the Low-r J^rovinces o 
 come to Ottawa than it used to be or the 
 uiombers fVom Sandwich to ^o tu >Iont,^al..1 
 
 the ti.ue of the i.nion. The Orand lunk 
 U.llwav had co^t tlK' provUH-'' avast sum. but 
 thed it"had been of vast s.n-vice to the country 
 Rut where is the company that would keep the 
 intercolonial Railway rautiiuti tor its tanaugs, 
 
 the road and the rolling .took being ade oye 
 to them as a gift ? Suppose a merchant i.on 
 Montreal wants to go to England, which road 
 .ill he prefer? Why, he would go by way 
 Portland. Would any produce be sent over 
 .uch a road? How much wheat ..-as there 
 sent over the Grand Trunk, even in win cr ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. FERRIER-A great de.d. 
 
 Hon Mr. CURRIE-H-w much Iron. 
 Montreal ? And why .lid we hear complaints 
 
 I'roin Huron and Bruce ? „ , ., 
 
 SEVERAL VOICES-Theyhavc uo rail- 
 
 u-iv there. (Lau>>hter.) 
 
 iloN Mr. CURUIE-Was there not the 
 Buffalo and Lake Huron Railway passing 
 SouiH.ron? It was our dtity to hesitate 
 •md not to s ou at railway speed but to 
 S 1 ke pru e at men. We were sent here to 
 iJace a dieek upon hasty legislation. But w:i« 
 here ever such hasty legislation as this .' \et 
 ,s the Government ,fere .strong in Parliament, 
 they mieht attempt to press the measure with- 
 out\he consent of the people. It ^hey d^. how^ 
 ever, pursue such a cour..e, they ^s^\\ perhaps 
 receivl a check in Nova Scotia or New Bmns- 
 wick, for in these provinces they had no intu ^ 
 ,1„„ \o pass the measure without a Irce and 
 lull discussion. , ,. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSS-Why, it it wai« good lor 
 them as the hen. member said, they might be 
 ■ dad to do it. „ . ,. 
 
 "^ Hon Mr. McCRE.V— If it was so unfa- 
 vorable for Canada it must be in the same 
 ,le<rree favoralle to the Lower Provmces. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE-Oh, that does not 
 bv any nie:.ns follow , they are a frugal, indus- 
 trious and intelligent people, and it may be 
 considered inadvisable by them to join a people 
 who, iu the sh-rt term of ten yeur.<. by a course 
 of extravagance and prodigality increased the 
 expenses of their government nearly tour hun- 
 dred percent., independent of the increase ot 
 the public debt. They might also call to mind 
 thi^ Grand Trunk swindles. 
 
 H(j N Mr ROSS— When the hon. member 
 said that'there had been Grand Trunk swi-i 
 dies, he said what was not correct. 
 
 lioN. Mr. CIJRHIE-Perhaps he used a 
 wrong term. He meant Grand 1 nmk Irauds. 
 Tho^ Fople might hesitate a' -out connecting 
 themselvei with a ^ople that had aln.os 
 broULdit themselves to the verge ot national 
 bankruptcy, and loaded themselves with stich 
 . heavy tariff, they might recal to n>md the 
 l,olitieal dishonesty of our public men, men 
 who had so mali-ned and blackened the pub- 
 lie character of' each other as to rec,uire a 
 wider stag* and a new audience »o witness 
 
11 
 
 their future acts. They would also obsene 
 that all formerly connected with the Grand 
 Trunk were urnins; this scheme forward. Ho 
 then accused the Government of bad faith in 
 briu^iiiL' down these resolutions, inste-d of a 
 measure simply for the Canadas ; that tlic 
 reform pa;-ty imly committed themselves to 
 the latter --chemc when Mr. Brown entered 
 tiie Cabinet, but now it was only secondary. 
 To bear this out he read the followinfi reso- 
 lution adopted by that party : — 
 
 Moved hy Mr. Hope McKe.nzie, and sccoikI- 
 fd by Mr. MefiivEiUN — That we approvo -jf the 
 (•our.s(> which has bieii [itirsucd by Mr. Urown in 
 tlic negotiations with tlie Government, .iml that 
 weapjuove of the project of a Federal union of 
 the Canada.:', with n'-ovisiou for its exteiision to 
 the Maritime rnninees and tlie North-Westv^rii 
 territory, as one based on which the constitutional 
 difficulties now existing should ue settled. ; 
 
 lie wa.s not personally opposed to Con- 
 federation iu itself, but this measure was so 
 defective that he could not support it. bearin.r, 
 as it did. the seeds of dccaj- apparent in its 
 details. He heartily concurred in the views 
 expres.sed recently at Halifax, by a distiutruishcd 
 rpper Canada Statesman — (Mr. Brow.v): — 
 " On a survey of the whole c;ise, I do think 
 that there is no doubt as to the hiprh advan- 
 ta<;es that would result from a union of a'l , 
 the Colonies, provided that terms of union 
 could be found just to all the contractimr 
 parties, and .^o framed its to secure harmitny 
 in the tv.tui-e administration of affairs. But \ 
 it were wrong to conceal for a moment that : 
 the whole merit of the scheme of union may 
 be completely marred by the character of its 
 details." He a.^kcd who would not say that 
 the details of this meti.-^ure did not so mar as 
 to spoil the scheme. If v.earcio have a Con- 
 federation, let it be put up)ii a proper and i 
 permanent foundation, one that will be (d' ad- I 
 vantaae to this ymuij; iind vigorous province, ! 
 and he expressed the hope that only such a ; 
 scheme would be sanctioned by Parliament. ' 
 (Hear, hear, and applause.) : 
 
 It being nearly six o'clock, Hon. Mu. | 
 Ross moved to adjourn the debate till the 
 morrow, which was carried. 
 
 The House then adjourned. 
 
 Wed.nk.'SDAI', Fibruarj/ 15, 1865. 
 
 Hon. Mic. SEYMOUll said :— Honorable 
 gentleuiju, I desire to make one or two re- 
 
 marks iu reply to something which fell from 
 my honorable friend the Commissi;)ner of 
 Crown Lands, in reference to the objections 
 T took lUi a former occasion to the details of 
 this scheme. That honorable ^'cntlcmtm, 
 after explaining oneortvo minor points, dis- 
 posed of the ( thers by saying that I opposed 
 cveryihiiig. .Vs that .■statement might iuipiy, 
 if honorable member:', of this House were not 
 ac((uaintcd with me, that my course had been 
 factious, I desire to state what I have op- 
 posed. Having been always a strong advo- 
 cate of retii'nchment and financial reform, I 
 have opposed the exorbitant expenses of the 
 (Jovernment. [ have ojiposed the extrava- 
 gance which has ma le the expenses of the 
 civil ;;overniiicnt of Canada exceed those of 
 any other country on the face of the globe, 
 in proportion to the revenue. I have always 
 opposed the expenditure of money without 
 the authority of Pariiau'cnt. (Hear, hear.) 
 I have always op|)osed the extravagant grants 
 and subsidies to the Grand Trunk Railway 
 (Company. (Hear, hear.) My honorable 
 frien;! o{iposite (Hon. Mr. Fkiuueu) has 
 s-oken (d" the benefit of the Grand Trunk 
 Railway, and <d' the great expenditure of 
 Knglisli capitalists in the work. It is true 
 the work was undertaken by them, but 
 Canada has borne her full share — has fulfil- 
 led every agreement. And more than that, 
 C iiiada has paid at the rate of thirty thousand 
 dollars prr mile f>r her viilways ; Canada 
 has contributed .?l.'),14:i,0(J(.l in principal, 
 and $5,4'iO,(K>0 in interest, without taking 
 into consideration a large number of smaller 
 matters. If a calculation be made from 
 these araount.<, it will be found as I have 
 stated, that Canada has paid at the rate of 
 SoO,OUU lor all the railway which ivas re 
 i(uired, namely, from Quebec to Toronto, 
 which would have connected with the Great 
 Wesiorn, and formed a Trunk line through 
 the province to Sarniti. H' large sums have 
 been expended ; if large sums have been 
 squandered, have not English contractors 
 benefited ? Are the people of Canada to be 
 blamed '! The scheme was planned by Eng- 
 lish capitalists, aud Canada fulfilled every 
 obligation. (Hear, hear.) Now, there its 
 another matter wh' i; I have opposed. 1 
 have always oppo^ the loose .system of 
 manageioent of the Crown lands, a system 
 by which our splendid domain has been frit- 
 tered away. 1 do not mean my remark.- on 
 this suojjct to apply to my honorable friend, 
 
12 
 
 the p.-csent ronimis-ionor of Crowu Lands^ 
 He ha.- only been in office a lew mouths, :md 
 I have not read his rciiort. Hut I uter 'o 
 the past, aud I say tliat the whole ol that 
 do.:iaiii has hcen squandered away in useless 
 exi-euses. There is another matter which 
 have opposed-the .Militia 15ill ol IS<.--_ I 
 admit that I oppusv.l that measure. H'at 
 was a meai,ure whi.h was gom- to entail 
 upou the country an enormous expeudifiie, 
 which would have exhausted our resources 
 at a time when that expenditure was not 
 required. Why, honorable genilemeu, was 
 not the Trad iliHiculry settled at the time I 
 Had nit the Aineriean (iovernment complied 
 with the demands ot Great Britain, and what 
 threatened us to authorize that expenditure . 
 There is one expenditure which I opposed, 
 which might perhaps be f|uestioiied. lop- 
 posed the Supply Hill in \^'^, "••'l I ^'^'\ 
 then votiu- with mo, my honorable tricud 
 the ("oiumissioncr of Crown Lai'ds. (Hear, 
 and lau-hter) Whether that vote can be 
 defendeu in a constitutional point of view, 1 
 cannot say ; but every vote I have -ivcu in 
 this Hou.se, or the other branch oi the Legi.s- 
 lature, h: s been given in accordance with 
 what I conceived to be the interesis of my 
 native country. (Hear.) My honorable 
 friend the ('ommi.ssioncr of Crown Lands, 
 alluded the other day to the conservative 
 feature o*' the Senate in the United Stat < 
 iu allowiui,' the same rcpres'jutatiou to small 
 states as to tlie larger states Hut this does 
 not ■■^t ail affect the general arrangement, 
 because the large majority are large .-tates 
 Jiut while my honorable friend approves ot 
 this portion, he should have expressed aii 
 opinion on tiie whole .system. In the Ijuited 
 States, no change of constitution can be ef- 
 fected without the consent of two-thiras of 
 both branches of the Legislature, aud that 
 must afterwards be sanctioned by three- 
 fourths of the state g..vernments. This is 
 a conservative feature also. Then, what are 
 the constitutions of the state governments. 
 I have here a clause taken from the consti- 
 tution of one of the states i^Oonnecticut), 
 which provides that : — 
 
 Whenever a majority of tlie House of Reprp- 
 
 nentatives shall deem it nenessary to alter or 
 amend this constituti.m, they may propose such 
 alterations and amendments which proposed 
 am.-ndmeiits shall be rinitinu.d to the next i<eu- 
 eral iuisembly, and he published with the laws 
 which may have been piussed at the same session, 
 and if two-thirds of each house, at the ne.'ct ses- 
 sion of said assembly, shall approve the amend- 
 
 ments proposed, by yeas »"'• "^y^ ^''''^ .'^"°7,*^, 
 monts shall, by the secretary, be transmitted to 
 the town olork in each town m this State, whose 
 dutv it shall be to present the same l.) the inhab- 
 itants thereof, for their consideration at a town 
 meetin.' le.-ally warned and hel : tor that p.irpo.se ; 
 and if it shall appear in a manner i.rov.ded by 
 law, that a maio.ity of the electors present at 
 sueh meetings shall have approv-d such am.ud^ 
 ,uents, tLe same shall be valid, to ail intents and 
 pmpo.ses, as a part of .his eoiistitution. 
 
 That is the way one of the oldest states 
 "•uards the rights and liberties of its people. 
 Then here is another extract from the con- 
 stitution of the state of Mississippi, one c- 
 the new states, showing how the people the>-e 
 are protected against hasty innovation :— 
 
 Whenever two-thirds of the general assembly 
 shall <leem it necessarj- to amend or change Ui'S 
 constitution, they shall recommend to the elec- 
 tors ;it the next election for members ol the gen- 
 eral' .assemblv, to vote for or against a conven- 
 tion : and if it shall appear that a majonly ot the 
 citizens of the state, voting lor rei>resentatives, 
 have voted for a convention, the general assem- 
 Mv shall, at their next session, call a eonveution, 
 to consist of as many members as there may be 
 i,i the ireneral assembly, to be chosen by the 
 (Mialilied electors in the manner, and at the times 
 and places of choosing members ot the geii.'ral 
 assembly; which convention shall meet within 
 three months after the said election, lor the pur- 
 pose of revising, amending, or changing the 
 I oustitution. 
 
 Now, in addition to this, what have we 
 
 seen V Have we not .seeu changes iu the 
 constitution latterly in respect to slavery, and 
 have they acted upon this till they have 
 been ratified by the state governments .' 
 Now, compare this mode of procedure with 
 that adopted in regard to the scheme— and 
 very properly called a scheme — of t'onledera- 
 tion submitted to this House. How were 
 these delegates called Into existence 1 Are 
 they not self-appointed ? (Hear.) Did not 
 the members of the Executive Council ot 
 Canada constitute themselves delegates { 
 (Cries of " mi, no," and '• yes.") And th- 
 members of the Executive (Councils of the 
 Lower Provinces, did they not also constitute 
 themselves delegates ? They prepared a 
 schea^e which they have laid before Parlia- 
 ment, and what is that scheme 'i It was 
 embodied in resolutions .sent to members ot 
 the l.cgislature before the meeting of tho 
 House, marked " private," both jw the out- 
 side :ind inside. Did any honorable member 
 feel himself at liberty to go before his con- 
 stituents, and explain it to them '( Did any 
 honorable member feel himself at liberty to 
 
■MM^ 
 
 vXrEV *^ : 
 
 13 
 
 call his constituents together, and say, here 
 is a scheme on which I will have to vote at 
 the next session of tiie Lej:isiature ? No, he 
 could not do it. Some ol' the newspapers did 
 publish what purported to be the resolutions, 
 but were they copied all over the country so 
 that the people mi-ht see and judije of them f 
 No, they were uot,a-id what was the reason'' 
 Did nut the IViivincial Secretary write his 
 uiandat"' to the press, that any ne^vspaper 
 that <lid not hupport Oonfederaiion, was not 
 to receive the Government patronage. Not 
 being an elective member, I did not teel 
 niyseir at liberty to address the people on 
 these resolutions. Did any member take 
 them to his constituents and explain every 
 detail of them ? 
 
 IIon.Mk.MACPHEUSON— Iton'tletthe 
 honorable member endeavor to create a false 
 impression. 1, I'or one, held two meetings 
 a day for .«onie time, and fully explained the 
 scheme to my constituents. 
 
 I1(.N. .Mr. Si-:i'MOUK— Did my hon- 
 orable friend tell iheni how much, this 
 intercolonial Railway was to cjst, or how 
 much I'pper Canada was to pay for it '/ That 
 it was 10 be established by the Government, 
 and kept up as a public work. I .should be 
 glad to hear my honorable friind on these 
 points before a popular assemblage. (Hear, 
 hearl. We have been told by my honorable 
 friend the Commissioner of Crown Lands, 
 that conc'ssions had to be made, but how 
 were these concessions made ? Unfortaui'te 
 ly they were all made one way ; they were 
 made to the Lower Provinces. No conces- 
 sions to Canada, East or West, but all in 
 favor of the liowcr Provinces. And cuuld 
 you expect anything else would be the result 
 of the (!onvention, when the small province 
 of Prince Edward Island, and the small pro 
 vince of Newfoundland, sent representatives 
 in the same manner and the same number 
 as the whole Province of t'anada I t^ould it 
 have been expected that the delegates from 
 Canada would supply all the talent ? How- 
 ever much I esteem the talents of the mem- 
 bers of the Executive Council, I believe 
 there are those in the Lower Provinces who 
 possess the talent necessary to arrange a 
 ■scheme of this kind. When Canada, with 
 its 3,000,000 of population and 81 l,000,00t> 
 of revenue, was represented there by twelve, 
 and the Maritime Provinces, with only 
 800,000 of population and a revenue under 
 *3,000,00n, was represented by nearly two to 
 one, could it be expected that a luvorabU 
 
 arrangement could be made. (Hear.) My 
 honorable friend says that they voted by 
 j)roviticc.-, but it was all the same. Now, 
 what was the tirst conces-ion '' 'I'he tirst 
 concession was in granting twenty eight 
 members of this House to those provinces, 
 with only SOO.OOO inhabitants and paying a 
 small amount of reveiuf, whereas in Upper 
 Canada we have l,oO(»,OUO of pupulaiiju, and 
 contribute 87,000,000 or gS, 000,000 to the 
 revenue, and yet have only twtntj-four 
 members. Here is the tirst concession to 
 make the Lower Provinces come in to sup- 
 ]iort the scheme And is it not a lict that 
 this House will have the control of the 
 legislation to a certain extent, ami are we 
 not entitled to \t'{ Then there is another 
 point in connection with the Lower Pro- 
 vinces, which 1 will here notice. The 
 franchise is lower there— it is almost univer- 
 sal. Persons entered upon the assessment 
 roll for a small amount of personal ])roperty 
 may vote for members of the Confederate 
 Parliament. Here members are elocted by 
 persons assessed for real properly to a certain 
 amount. This is another matter which 
 should have been attended to. It is not 
 right tl at members should be sent to the 
 General Parliament on these terms. (Hear, 
 hear.) The whole scheme is, in fact, a 
 history of ■ jncessions, and all on one side. 
 The arrangement of the public dtbt at a 
 rate per head, instead of according to re- 
 venue, is another mistake. My tri.'pd, the 
 honorable tor Saugeen (Hon. Mr. Mac- 
 piiRRsoN), whom 1 do not .see in his place, 
 stated the other day that my arguments were 
 fallacious ; that in this case the rate p> r 
 head of population was the one which ought 
 to be adopted. Is not the revenue the 
 means of payment of the debt ? Is popula- 
 'ion to be considered!:' I will satisfy my 
 honorable friend that his reasoning was not 
 correct, at least it is not what I would ex- 
 pect froMiagentlet; an occupying the po.sition 
 he does in the country. Is population al- 
 ways wealth 'f No. It is wealth when it 
 can be profitably employed ; it is wealth 
 when you can employ it in nianufacrures, or 
 in the cultivation of good farniin;; lands ; 
 but lock at the ca.se of Ireland, where popu- 
 lation has been a source of poverty. 
 
 Hon. Mr. M.VCPHERSON— What I said 
 was, that past revenue was not a fair cri- 
 terion ol whiit each province was to pay. 
 In future we would have a uniform tariff. I 
 am sure that my honorable friend will not 
 
14 
 
 say that in this country population is a source 
 of -.lovcrty. 
 
 Hon. Mn. Hi'lY.MOril— My houorahle 
 frit-nd says h-i adopts one plan for the past 
 and another for the future. What juscioc 
 is there in that ? We have only to look at 
 the proposed system to see the effect it has. 
 If New Bri'nswiek, wiJi a milliou revenue, 
 le idlowed to put iier debt of seven millions 
 upon the Confederation, t'en, upon tliesime 
 rule, (\inada should enter into the Conledcra- 
 tion with all her debt and more. The esti- 
 mated revenue of (.'anada is cloven uidlious. 
 Any one could fi-ure that out and see that 
 Canada ."should liave had no debt left for the 
 local governments to pay ; hut on this prin- 
 cipal of concession, why, of course, (anad;. 
 must suffer. Now, to .shew the workin- c 
 the system, look at the effect of the rate ol 
 80 cents a head. Upper Canada -ill pay 
 «l 540 OOO to the General (Jovcrnmcnt, and 
 rec'ei ve'baek 81,1 20,000 for the T.ocal (^govern- 
 ment. " That is, supposin- Upper Canada 
 contributes two-thirds of the revenus ot the 
 united pr.n-inces. Th it has been admitted 
 by one who now holds a hi^h position in the 
 Government. This is the fine scheme whieh 
 my honorable friend from Saui-ecn lauds. 
 You pay accordins^ to wealth, and the dit- 
 ference against Upper Canada is «4i0,U00, 
 or iu other words. Upper Canada pays 
 Sl,ii40,000 out of one pocket and receives 
 back SI ,120,000 in the other. This is the 
 working of the system which has been car 
 ried out, very much against the interests ot 
 not only Upper Canada but all Canada. Fhc 
 third concession is the amount to be paid to 
 Newftmudland, as a set-off against her not 
 being indebted. There may be, I admit, a 
 show of fairness iu this, but the sum is a great 
 deal tou largo. Canada will go on increasing, 
 whereas from Newfoundland we can expect 
 very little. The fourth matter is that of the Sit 
 cents a head, to which I have just alluded, 
 and I have shown the working of that, and 
 it is decidedly against it. Then comes 
 the 803,000 a year to New L'ruuswiek. 
 for ten years. I was very glad to hear 
 my honorable friend from SiUL'een (lion. 
 Mr. .Macpheuson) disapprove of that. I 
 am glad to find him, so strong a supporter of 
 thia scheme, admit that that was wrong. 1 
 have made my calculation in an Upper 
 Canada point of view. So long a.s the union 
 was maintained, however, my voice was never 
 raised by way of comparison. I desire to 
 maintain that union. (Hear, hear.) But 
 
 now wc arc forced to take this scheme as it 
 i- without any amendment in any particular. 
 I 'only now will to point out that ot the 
 priueipal vhieh tlus S<i:j.O0»* represen's, and 
 ,vhHdi my honorabh- friend from Saugeen 
 cannot endorse. Cpper Cana.ia will have to 
 p,y <;:;fi7,0ilO. Then $1.-S0,U(MI a-year to 
 Newfoundland is a sixth concession, made 
 for worthless lands. This is e.|Ual to a capi 
 tul of three millions. The lands of the other 
 p,-ovinecs are well taken care of; but those 
 in Newfoundland, what are they worth.' 
 They are entirely valueless. When my hon- 
 orable friend the Co:nmi>sioner ol Crown 
 Lands has all these lauds to control, I am 
 sure he will have his hands full The lands 
 of other provinecj wore worth retaining, and 
 they were left u.ider their own management; 
 but as these happened to be good for nothing, 
 they were put upon the General Govern- 
 ment. Had tlu-y been good tor anything, 
 they would also have been reserved ihere 
 is another question. It is i)roposed to take 
 the government railways of New Hrun.^wick 
 and Nova Scotia, and make them ,.rovincial 
 works. I suppose we shall be told that the 
 canals of Canada are also taken, and made 
 public works of the Coufcd.-ration. But 
 (here is a very great difference betweeu these. 
 The railways had onlv an e.K.stence ol a tew 
 years, they would bo worn out soon, and 
 must be kept up at the expense of the Cou- 
 federate Government. What advantige 
 could they be to the Confederate (jovcrn- 
 monfr' What are our expenses now tor 
 public works r Have we not seen the tolls 
 removed o.i our canals, and will it not he a 
 part of the policy of the Confederate Gov- 
 ernment to remove the rat.'S paid on these 
 railways, and they will be kept up, as all 
 public works art. at an enormous loss to t^tie 
 Government. ai--="-' '^«="-) My ''""'^'^ol^ 
 friend from Niagara the other day, 1 thought, 
 on one point, was not .,ui-e correct ir. what 
 he said in respect to Upper Canada. (Laugh- 
 ter, and hear, hear.) From the census ot 
 IStU, I find that tlic cash-value ot larms m 
 Upper Canada wns 8205,102,815, and in 
 Lower Canada SIOS, 1:^2,546, making a total 
 of 8403,594,S()l. The live stock in Upper 
 Canada was valued at 853,227,516; in 1-ower 
 Canada, 824,.572,1 24. Wheat, Upper pan- 
 ada, 824,040,425 ; Lower Canada, «2,oW,- 
 114. Other grains. Upper Canada, »69,- 
 123,340; Lower Canada, 823,534,703. Now, 
 iu timber, mineral wealth, manufactures and 
 fisheries, Upper Canada is quite equal to 
 
'^^?: 
 
 15 
 
 Lower Canada and the Maritime Provinces. 
 I believe that iJ Upper Canada coul<l he left 
 alons, if it was rot to he hurtlieuod and its 
 back broken by these concessions, the whole 
 of Canada would become still more prosjier- 
 ous, provided we did not enter into imy 
 fuither useless and wasteful expendituie. 
 Compare these resources with those of tlie 
 Ijower Provinces I The gallant I'remicr, 
 the other day, stated soiuethici;; with espect 
 to the wealth of those provinces — with res- 
 pect to their mines and timber. ]5ut the 
 timber must become exhausted, and conse- 
 fjuently that country cannot grow richer; 
 whilst in Canada, with a good productive 
 soil and an industrious population, we must 
 go on increasing in wealth. What is the 
 value of the mines which we are to get 't In 
 Nova Scotia the royalty on eo;il is only -SliX,- 
 000, and the revenue derived irom the gold 
 fields, $:i(),000 ; and what else have we to 
 obtain from these provinces ? Why, in 
 Nova Scotia they have no timber, and con- 
 sequently their revenue cannot iucrease ; 
 whilst we in C'anada must inevitalily go on 
 and grow in prosperity, because the ele- 
 ments of our wealth are in the soil and 
 climate. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Hon. Mu. CAMPBELL— Surely my hon- 
 orable friend Joes not pretend to say that 
 Nova Scotia cannot inerense. Why, in the 
 last year it has doubled. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR— What else h;.ve 
 they besides their cu^' fields? It is not 
 pretended that they lave any timber. If 
 you increase the taria, you will increase the 
 revenue; but it must not be expected that 
 the revenue can be doubled. They will 
 lessen their consumption if you ir.crease the 
 tariflF. It is fallacious reasoning to say that 
 when you double the tariff you doub'e the 
 revenue. 
 
 Hon. Mr CAMPBELL— For the year 
 1859, the revenue of Nova Scotia was 
 86^9,000, and it increa.sed the next year to 
 §1,249,000, and wetit ou increasing, and yet 
 my honorable friend says that it cannot in- 
 crease. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR- 1 have not the 
 statements which the honorable gentleman 
 has quoted i'rom, but the figures I have given 
 are those of 18tj2. There are excise duties, 
 but I believe that the local duties will be 
 paid to the local governments. I'he com- 
 plaint which has been made by Upper Canada 
 has been, that although they contributed 
 two-thirds or three-fourths of the revenue, 
 
 they did not possess a corresponding control 
 of the legislation, and that they did not re- 
 ceive back in proportion to the amount they 
 paid. Will this be remedied by this mea- 
 sure '! Draw a line east of i>lontr< al, and do 
 you not find the erntrol of the legislature 
 there, in conse()nence of the concessions 
 made to tlie .Maritime i'rovinces ''. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The balance 
 will be restored when the Red River eomes 
 in. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEYMOLR— lam afraid that 
 no one here will live to see that country 
 come in. I liavi^ liste;ied with a good deal 
 of attention to the speeches of my honorable 
 friends, and I have read the rei)orts of the 
 debates in the other branch of the Legisla- 
 lure, and the only argument I have heard 
 brouglit fiirward in favor of this seheuie, is 
 that it will stiongtiien the connection with 
 the Mjther Country. (Hear, hear.) Now, 
 honorable gentlemen, I yield to no one in 
 saying that tliat connection ought not to be 
 broken. I say we are infini'ely bettei here 
 under the flag of (Jreat Britain than under 
 that of the United States. (Hear, hear.) 
 But no reason is assigned ; we are not told 
 in what way the connection is to be strength- 
 ened. Can you altar the geographical posi- 
 tion of theeountry 'i Will you have any more 
 people or means 't Your revenue is not 
 increased, nor is your population, nor is your 
 geographical position altered. Is it because 
 the people of the Lower Provinces are ready 
 to expend a large su;ii for the defence of the 
 country "/ Why, to show you what those 
 provinces consider it necessary to do in this 
 direction, 1 will read a short extract from a 
 statement of the Financial Secretary of Nova 
 Scotia : — 
 
 As regards the sum pn)f)0seil to bt; jrranted for 
 tin; luililia — g2<l,000 — liomirabie gentlemen might 
 think it a large amount in ilie [iie.sent state of the 
 linanees; but, looking at the laiL'e sum already 
 ixp'/iiJcd, and .still being exiienJoj iu Canada — 
 the t'lt'orts being made in New Brunswick for a 
 simil.ar cjbject — would it be crpilitable to us as 
 Nova Scotians, particularly considering the elTorts 
 put forth by the British (Jove nmeiit to protect 
 u.s, to e.^pei'd a less sum. 
 
 The large sum of S20,0(t0 was to be ex- 
 pended, and that at a time when the expen- 
 sive Militia Bill, to which i have alluded, was 
 betbre thi- House. (Hear, hear.) Twenty 
 thousand dollars was the sum that was pro- 
 posed by the Legislature of Nova Scotia, the 
 next important colony to Can la, at a time 
 
:4-:#^^g2^^ 
 
 16 
 
 when wo were told here that we were in 
 danger Iroiu our neighbors across the line. 
 But s tniethiug more was* said hy the Fin- 
 ancial S.-eretary. The present I'reiuier was 
 pressiaj; to strike out this item and put 
 88,000 instead, and the Financial Secretary 
 said: 
 
 Uri<UM- uidiiiiiiv circumstance?, he would agiyr 
 with the lioiioialJlc menilici' as t.) strikinj.' out the 
 $l2,(mil extra irnuit for the niililia; luit consiilcr- 
 iii^' the hu-L'c sum .-lUout t-. be expended on this 
 service hy New Hrunswick, the enormous ex- 
 penditure ol' the Hume Government fur our pro- 
 tection, and what they exiiected of us. he con- 
 sidered the iippropriation necessary. lie would 
 Ije ashiin-,ed of the Government if thev had not 
 nropijsed this vote, and he was prejiaied to stand 
 or fall by it as iv felt that the honor of tin' 
 country was at slake. 
 
 The honor of the country was at stike in 
 this $20,00l». New Brunswick the .-uiue year 
 spent 81.i,0UO. Now, I opposed the expen- 
 sive Militia Bill submitted to this House; 
 but then the Government had expended over 
 half a million dollars a year in militia ex- 
 penses ; and I admit chey are ^'oin;,' on very 
 properly now. (Ifear, hear.) Tht-n wc 
 have been told that this Confederation 
 scheme is goinj^ to raise the credit of the 
 country. My honorable friend from Sau<;een 
 ventured the statement that on the intelli- 
 gence ol' the adoption of these resolutions 
 in the Conference reaching England, funds 
 rose filt.en to seventeen per cent Now, 
 does any honorable gentlemnn suppose for a 
 moment that that was the cause for this rise. 
 [A voic(>— It was.] T have here fnuu the 
 tiles of the Loudon Times, the quotations of 
 Canadian Securities, and on the 7th of 
 November,— the date of His Kxcelleney's 
 letter, conveying intorniation of the adoption 
 of the scheme, — the inscribed stock was HG 
 
 to 90. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MxVCPjIEUSON— I stated a 
 fact when I said that that rise took jdace in 
 consequence of the resolutions. 1 would like 
 my honorable tVie.id to explain it in any 
 other way. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEV.MUUR— W.- know that 
 there are various causes which operate in 
 raising or depressing stoijks in England, 
 the rate of interest of the Bank of Engl!\dd, 
 &c. Well, on the 7th of November as 1 
 said, the quotation was SG to 1»0, and 1 find 
 that un the lifith Noveu.ber, giving time for 
 the news to reach England, it was only 88 
 to 92. And now, with a strong probability 
 of the measure passing, what is the price 'i 
 The last quotation is 81 to 81!. 
 
 Hon Mr. MACPHKRSON— T supposi 
 the hon<irable mitnber knows the reuson of 
 this deeline. Socjn after what was done in 
 the Conference was known in F" 'land, the 
 St. Alban's raid took place, ami the con- 
 sequence of the cve.its couuecied with that 
 was a fall of 17 or 18 per cent, in imr secu- 
 rities. 
 
 Ho.N. Mr. SEY.V.OUU— In consequence 
 of the wise policy of the statestuen of Eng- 
 land friendly relations had been maintained 
 with ojr neighbours. It is true the pass- 
 port .system was put on, but it is to be removed 
 attain, and all things are to become as they 
 wl^e before, with the exception, perhaps, of 
 the Bcciprocity Treaty. Every man of 
 business knows that that rise in stocks was 
 not caused by anything connected with the 
 Confederation scheme. Why .should it? 
 What is it that increases the value of stocks 
 and depreciates them '/ Is it not the confi- 
 dence of capitalits who have -nvestcd in 
 them, that the interest will be jmid. iJut 
 under this Confederation scheme will not 
 our expenses be increased. This Intercolo- 
 nial Railway must be built and kept up, and 
 this must be at the cost of Canada. Vou 
 have got your local governments to keep up, 
 and you have got your Coufederate Govern- 
 ment to keep up, and if we look at the ex- 
 perience of the pa.st, is it likely there will 
 be any reduction in the future I* (Hear, 
 hear.) I have got figures here to shew what 
 the cost of the two governments was before the 
 union of the provinces. The whole expense 
 of the -iovernment of Lower Canada, with the 
 salaries of officers, &c., was £57,<il8. In Up- 
 per Canada we were as economical. We were 
 then under the rule of the fam-ly compact, 
 and a worse compact we might have. ( Hear, 
 hear, and laughter.) They were high-imnd- 
 cd, and they did not stoop to matters of cor- 
 ruptioL, as others have done since. (Hear, 
 hear.) The whole expenses of the two gov- 
 ernments were only a little over .£100,000 a 
 year. What are they now ? Some two years 
 ago the expenses of the civil government 
 afone, not including the cost of the militia, 
 were §3,001,000. Here, in a little more 
 than twenty years, the expenses have in- 
 creased seven-fold, notwithstanding that we 
 have only one Govern ment. Now, what are 
 we 'o expect from the (Joiifcderate Govern- 
 •nent? Every honorable member knows 
 that things must be made pleasant for^every- 
 body, and whca you are forming a Confed- 
 erate Government, these expenses must be 
 continued. You cannot turn people adrift, 
 
 I 
 
 it 
 
17 
 
 and you must either employer pension them. 
 Are wo to suppose that bceause there is a 
 I'Vdcration, Hicsc expenses will bo lessened? 
 I admit that in the Lower Provinces they 
 have managed their afl'airs with lens expense 
 than we have. IJut now wn will have the 
 local ijoveriiments to ]iay lor. Wo will 
 have ancthcr stall' to keep up for each pro- 
 vince, which will add very materially to our 
 expenses. The money must eome out of the 
 |iockets of the people, who will have to pay 
 it cither by direct or indirect taxation. 
 What pos.^ihie difference can it make to the 
 ]i(;i)ple of this country, whether they pay it 
 directly ].y taxation or in duties. Direct 
 taxation mu.st be imposed, and that to a larjre 
 extent, by the local j'oveinnients. 
 
 It being six o'clock, the Spkaker left the 
 Chair. 
 
 After the dinner recess, — 
 
 Hon. JMit. SKVMOUii, continuing his 
 remarks, said — 1 think, honorable gentlemen, 
 that, taking into consideration the vast im- 
 portance of this scheme — its importance in a 
 financial point of view alone, without saying 
 one word about the principle of changing the 
 constitution without consulting the people — 
 there should be an appeal to the country 
 before it is carried into ellcct. A point 
 whi(di I did not enter fully into before the 
 recess was ti.e argument thai; Confederation 
 would strengthen the connection with the 
 Mother Country. Now, do we not see all the 
 linancial -cformcrs in England, with the 
 T(';/('.s and other influential organs of the 
 press, wliich on linancial grounds were desir- 
 ousof separatingthe colonics iVora thcjiresent 
 state, all advocating this measure in the 
 warmest possible manner? Undoubtedly the 
 imperial government will sanction the scheme, 
 but it is the policy now of that (government 
 to sanetion anything of a local character that 
 0\z colonies desire. Well, in addition to the 
 the press that is favorable to the separation 
 of the colonies frooi the Mother Jountry, and 
 financial reformers like GoLRWiN Smith 
 and others who have favored the same views, 
 what wa.-, stated a short time ago by the 
 Under Secretary of State for the Colonies 
 to his constituents ? In sneaking of this 
 scheme, he said it was favored by the Imperial 
 trovernment for the purpose of preparing us 
 for a change in our relations ; for tho pur- 
 pose of educating us to defend ourselves. 
 (Hear, hear.) Was it not very itrong lan- 
 guage, coming a.s it did from no less a per- 
 sonage than the Under ^ecretaTy for tlic 
 
 3 
 
 Colonies, that the Imperial (lovernment is 
 ready to favor a separation whenever we 
 asked for it ? (Hear, hear.) Now, I am 
 not one of* those honorjiblc gentlemen who 
 wi.ih to see the day arrive when the colonies 
 will ask for such separation, i am not one 
 of those who wish to educate the people to 
 that idea, but would rather inii)res.-i upon 
 them the paramount importance of endea- 
 voring to maintain the union and connection 
 with the Morher Country. (Hear, hear,) 
 
 Hon. Mu. DkKKAUJEU— What is the 
 opinion of the foreign press with regard to 
 us? Has it not threatened us, so that it is 
 our duty to Ik^ prepared ? 
 
 Ho.N. Mk. SEYJIOUil— 1 suppose my 
 honorable friend alludes to the press of the 
 neighboring republic. We have certainly 
 seen some cf those ncws[)apers, but very few 
 of them threatening to invade and ovcrruni 
 us, but have you heard anything of that kind 
 from the Government of the country, and 
 are not our relations w'ith it of the most 
 friendly character ? Arc you to be governed 
 in your ci)nduet by tiie rash utterances of a 
 few newspapers, — perhaps sensation news- 
 papers ? 
 
 IIo.\. Mk. MACIMIKRSON— lias not 
 iMr. Skwaud 1 iireater.ed us ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. SKYMUUR— Not since he 
 entered the aovernmont. (Hear, hear, and 
 laughter.) 
 
 Hon. Mk. CAMl'DKLL— Ye.s, just be- 
 fore the la«-t presidental election. 
 
 Hon. .Mr.. SKY.MOl^l— Wcli, that i.-s a 
 matter of very little iuiportanee. (Laughter.) 
 Xow, I'.onorable gentlemen, I have shown 
 that this scheme has i;o precedent, eren on 
 the other side of the line. Among all the 
 wild republican theories of our neighbors, 
 they have never proposed to change the 
 Constitution in this manner — never changed 
 it, at all events, without the consent of the 
 people, obtained in some form or other. 
 Reference has been made, I think, by my 
 honorable friend in front ''Hon. Mr. Ross) 
 to the union of England and Ireland. Well, 
 every hotiorablc mcixiber knows the means 
 employed to bring about that union. Mat, 
 in his Constitutional llistori/, states that 
 £1,500,000 sterling were spent in carrying 
 it. Rut how Tas the representation dealt 
 with in thas case ? Did England, being the 
 richer country, possessing the largest share 
 of wealth and capital, give a preponderance 
 of the representation to Uelaud, as we pro- 
 pose to give to the Lower Provinces ? 
 
 
18 
 
 Hon. Mil. KOSS— That was a lcf,'islatiye 
 uiiiou, while in this the representation will 
 be hasL'd on population. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEYMOI'R— That Joes not 
 aficct the case. After the Iri.sh uniui was 
 effected, what was the representation ol Ire- 
 land in the House of ('i)iiiiaoiis? U was 
 100 members in a total number of liiiH ; and 
 in t!'e House of Lords 'iS IVers, in a Hou.so 
 of 4riO members. And although it was con- 
 sidered by Hn^'land an ab.'olute iiectt-.Mty 
 that the union thoulJ be )>r(;ui;ht about, she 
 did not {,'ive a prep )nderaiice, and scarcely a 
 l':iir share, of the representation to the si>ter 
 kinLjdom. 
 
 Ho.N. Mn. IIOSS— That is became in the 
 Knglish Tarliament they do not reeou'nize 
 the principle of representation by population. 
 Hon. Mv.. SEVMOril— Jly hon. friends 
 will say that this proposed chauio is neither 
 American nor En;^li-<h. 
 
 SEVERAL HON. MEMBEIW— It is 
 Canadian. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Hon. .Mil. SEV.MUl'K--No, it is neither 
 one nor the other ; it is a mongrel ('(m.-^titu- 
 tion. (Laughter.) In England no import- 
 ant change in the laws is ever carried with- 
 out being discussed a Parliament, session 
 after session, followed by an appeal to tho 
 people upon it. Even so u. important a 
 change — or what would, in comparison with 
 this scheme, be bore regarded as so unim- 
 portant a change— as the extonsi.n of the 
 franchise has been discu.-'sed in Parliament 
 for veiirs, and submitted to the people belbre 
 passing into law. Now, I would like to en- 
 quire of honorable gentlemen, what aro the 
 legitimate functions of the Legislature of this 
 country. Ho we not a.ssemble here for the 
 purpose of enacting good and wholesome 
 laws for the people ? (Hear, hear.) Tho«e 
 laws may be repealed, if they chance not to 
 meet public approval; but here ym propose 
 to change the Constitution — to change the 
 whole frabric of society — in fact to revolu- 
 tionize society, without asking the Cinsont 
 of the people, and without the possibility — 
 at any rate, tho reasonabl'j possibility — of 
 this important change ever being recon? ' '- 
 ercd. Does nut this important subject affect 
 every frceL Ider in the country as much as 
 it affects us, and are there not thousands of 
 people in the country who have as great an 
 interest in it as the mcmbrrs of the K.xceu- 
 tive Council of Canada '■' And yet forsooth 
 these gentlemen prepare a scheme, bring it 
 down to this House, and tell the representa. 
 
 fives of tho pwple that they are not at liberty 
 to r.scertain the wishes of the people respect- 
 ing it, nor to alter it in any manner, but 
 must take it as it is. Still we arc told, not- 
 withstanding all this, that this is freedom, 
 and that we aro a free people. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— ^ u are m. 
 liberty cither to accept or reject it. (Hear, 
 
 hear.) 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEVMOPU— Well, that is all 
 very well, but wo are told we must accept 
 the scheme as it is; and all the inffueiiee 
 that the (lovernmcnt can use — which 1 fear 
 will be successfully used— (hear, hear)— will 
 be employed to carry it through without the 
 people having an opportunity of saying yea 
 or nay upon it. Wc arc told it is not Brit- 
 i>h to permit thi:i — even to pass a short act 
 alli>wing the people to vote upon it; but if 
 •his is not British, neither is the proposi- 
 t on itself. (Hear, hear.) I entreat Imn- 
 orable mcmbcis not to pass a measure id" 
 this imp rta..cc without delaying it some 
 little time, :it all cvenl.s, for the purjiose of 
 obtaining an expression of public opinion 
 upon it. Tiie people v\ iio arc to be governed 
 by it, who arc for all time to come to live 
 under this Constitution, certainly have a 
 right to be consulted before it is consum- 
 mated ; and fur the special wo'!-boing of 
 the country, I hope and trust it will not pass 
 without affording them that oppor'unity. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Thursday, Fthnotn/ 10. 18G5. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SIMPSON said— I think it 
 was said by a """sc man that there is nothing 
 new under the sun. But had SoLO^'hn 
 the scheme now before the House presented 
 to biin, he would probably have changed bis 
 opinion. Possibly nothing new can be said 
 on the subject of representation by popula- 
 tion, or even on the scheme now beiore the 
 House ; but representing, as T do, one of the 
 largest and wealthiest constituencies in 
 Upper Canada, I think it necessary for mc 
 lo give my reasons for tin, position I have 
 felt it my duty to take in referenee thereto 
 It has been stated that the elections wbicli 
 have lately taken place have gone in favoi 
 of the (Government ; but, even if such wen 
 the case, how could it po^sibly be otherwise 
 seeing that men of all shades of politics ha'i 
 united in formin;: a happy limiily. ^Yc hav 
 seen those who have been for almost u life 
 
19 
 
 at libortv 
 
 3 rospec't- 
 incr, but 
 
 toll), IKlt- 
 
 f'rcciloiu, 
 
 u art! ut 
 (Ueiir, 
 
 that i.H all 
 ust ai'Ci'fit 
 
 influoiiii' 
 icli 1 liar 
 >ar) — will 
 ithiHit the 
 iajiiiti; yoa 
 not'iJiit 
 
 short act 
 it; but il' 
 pro|iosi- 
 loat liuD- 
 lea'txre I'l' 
 
 4 it iconic 
 iur{iose of 
 u opiui'iii 
 
 2 governed 
 lie to live 
 ^ have a 
 
 3 consuiu- 
 l-being <>I' 
 11 not pass 
 tpor'unity. 
 
 .803. 
 
 [ think it 
 : is nothing 
 
 SoLO^'iiN 
 
 3 prosiMitcd 
 hani^i'd his 
 can bo said 
 by popala- 
 belore the 
 , one of the 
 uencies in 
 ■ary for nie 
 ition I have 
 lee thereto, 
 lious which 
 )nc iu favor 
 f such wore 
 c otherwise, 
 politics ha' 'e 
 '. ^Yc have 
 duiost .1 life- 
 
 time antagonistic to each other openini^ their 
 arniH, a.s was .so well and eloijuently deidetcd 
 the other cvenini; by the honorable ineujbcr 
 from Montreal (lion. Mr. Fkurikh), and 
 enibracinn each other; and we have been 
 I d to iii.agiue that the uiilleniuui, so long 
 predicted and anxiously lo'ked for, has, 
 so far as CavaJa is concern»d at all events, 
 at length arrived. (Laughter.) We are to 
 have no more discord and no more strife, but 
 are henceforth to live iu harmony the one 
 with the other. Iths been asserted that 
 in regard to myself I owe u5y return ^7ithou^ 
 oppositi-jn to the fact that 1 avowed myself 
 in lavor of the Confederation of the pro- 
 vinces on the basis submitted. This is not 
 correct. I held no i.;eetingsjl made no 
 speeches ; and in no instance was I asked 
 what wore my views in reganl to the schcmo ; 
 and, if honorable gontlomeu will permit me, 
 f will read a portion of my short address to 
 the electors. It is a.*: follows : — 
 
 You will rea nimbly e-xjioct nio to jjivc mv 
 vii'Wi (111 the im|H)itaiit coiistitulioiial cliaii/os 
 that arc now ioiitiMiiplat('d. Xo one at all ac- 
 i|iiainto'l with tlie ollects |iroiliicc(l iijioii our le,'is 
 i.'i>iatioii anil on the goncial |iio^|nTity of ihu 
 coiiutry, by the iiuha|.|iy sectional ilillkultios 
 exidtiuj; betwcvu U|ipui- uud L Avi-i- Cauadii, but 
 must have full that sonv; renioilv shouM bo louiiJ 
 for tl)o,<o evils. Whether the very abl" ;,'e:itlc- 
 miMi wlio havo so strau.'oly united to soKc and 
 leuiovc tliosodillirultins will Ijoablc to acronipli.sh 
 ihcir pi-aisi'worthv tas'c, time alouo cm tell. We 
 need the details lieloro bein.' able to proiiounee 
 an o|iiuioii; but IieurtllT (and I hopti in common 
 witli eve ry wdl-wishoi-'ol' their eeimtiy) I most 
 eaniustly pray tliit they may succed. 
 
 It will bo .seen that hero I simply state 
 that the gentlemen who had so strangely 
 eomc together would be entitled to the thanks 
 of the country if they were able to agree 
 upon a scheme whieh would solve the ad- 
 mitted ditllculties between I'pper and liOwer 
 Canada. But as I have read from my 
 address, so I still maintain that, before we 
 can be expected to express au intelligent 
 opinion, we ought not simply to have '-.alf a 
 scheme, but the details of the scheme in its 
 entirety. If we refer to the election in 
 ?N^orth Ontario, where the Honorable Pro- 
 vincial yecretui_y had been the representative, 
 and who returned for re-election after accept- 
 ing oilicc iu the present Government, we 
 find that he wus defeated by a gentleman 
 (3Ir. M. C. Ca.mkron) who is known to be 
 an opponent to the project. And it we take 
 the more recent election which occurred iu 
 South Ontario, we find the contest between 
 
 two gentlemen, both personal friends of my 
 own, and both of whom were favorable to 
 the principle, but who pledged fhemsclTCS 
 that before it became an accom; lished fact, 
 it should, .so far as their vote would extend, 
 bo .submitted for the approval of :hc people. 
 And I would be greatly deceived if the gen- 
 tleman who has now the honor to represent 
 that riding in the other branch of the Legi.i- 
 laturc (Mr. GtniLs) shill be found support- 
 ing the scheme unless that course be first 
 taken. We need the details before it is 
 possible that wo can pronounce upon the 
 sehemo and eon.nder it on its merits. 
 
 Hon. Mu. KOSS— Vou have the d.itails, 
 Hon. Mu. SIMP.SOX— Th« de:ails arc 
 unfortunately the very things that arc want- 
 ing— tiiey are the ma.-row of the whole 
 affair, (ileal, hear.) When the a-itation 
 for representation by population was first 
 started in Upper Canada, I stated that I had 
 no confidence in it as a cure lor the evils 
 we complained of, and I then, and havo 
 ever since, felt that it would be better 
 for the two provinces to separate than 
 to create sectional jealousies and .strife by 
 the demand for an increased representation, 
 and the reli-ious cries a.ssoeiated with it. 
 For my part, 1 iiave ncvrr, like some honor- 
 able gentlemen of this Ilou.^e, attended and 
 presidL'd over that kind of jiolitical organi- 
 zations kuown as conventions, not bt'ieving 
 these to be the proper means of redressing 
 the grievances under whieh the country 
 labored. The effect of those conventions 
 was to aid fuel to the agitation which was 
 alre."dy sundering the country. That such 
 should be the result [deeply regret, inasmuch 
 as some of the dearest friends I have in the 
 world are not only Lower Canadians, but 
 adherents of a different faith. Th,; fruit 
 of this sectional ho.>til;ty and discord we now 
 see in the demand which has sprung up for 
 Federation with al! its concomitant burdens. 
 1 can lay no blauio to my conscience for 
 having assisted to bring about so unnatural 
 a state of things, and whatever may be the 
 consequences of the new condition of politi- 
 cal existence towards which we are appa 
 rently drifting, my skirts, I rejoice to say, 
 arc clear, for I have had no hand or part in 
 it. We are told that if this scheme is car- 
 ried out, Upper Canada will be entitled to the 
 great advantage of having in the House of 
 Commons of the I'ederal Government 17 
 additi'^""! members. Hut what rea. advan- 
 tage is this to be to the country 'i Do we desire 
 
I 
 
 so 
 
 17 alaitional uunib.rH for the inirposo of 
 crusbint,' liuwer Canada— i that what is 
 mount 't I answer, no. But even sirpposnij,' wc 
 have 17 udditionul uieniber.s— .suppohing re- 
 presentation by jiopulation is couccded in the 
 new order of tliinj;.s— what will bo tiie ;:aiu 
 to I'ppor Canada/' Will these 17 new 
 members cure the «vils -.f whieh we 
 complain 'i AVill they be able to reduee the 
 excessive expenditun .-, under whieh we arc 
 now laboring, and whieh have been one ot 
 the causes of the agitation lor l .iftitutional 
 changes '( 1 do not believe a word ot it. 
 Supposing Ipper (.'anada has a larger repre- 
 sentation by thiit number than J.jwcr 
 Canada, you must reuieiuber that Lower 
 Canada, with the Ka.-tern Provinces, is en- 
 titled to 112 lucmbers ; ko that Ipper 
 Canada Would still be in a large minority of 
 the whole House. iMy honorubb friend the 
 member lurNiagara i^liou. .Mr. Cf uuie) has 
 brought before the llou»e a number of Talu- 
 able statistics bearing on this (lucstiou, and 
 I must say I deeply regret the members 
 of the Government ^-ittiu- in this Chamber 
 have not attempted to rcfu.c them. If 
 these fig" res were wrong, they were easily 
 susceptible of being so proved, especially 
 by so able a gentleman as the llouorable 
 Commissioner ul' Crown l-and.*. L!ut he has 
 not ati«nipted the tu.'k, iiiusmueh as he 
 knows it would be a hople>s one. I hold in 
 my bauds u statement inrnijhed by the 
 Auditor Ceueval to the -Minister oi i'inanee, 
 from which it iippeair: that our debt amounts 
 to v.'o,.')78,UU'v', and deducting sinking fund 
 and bankers' balances, .t::,l:)-',OU(J, leaving 
 a balance of gl)8,-l-li;,()U0 as the actual debt 
 of Canada, to be borne bj the people of this 
 province under any sehmie that can be con- 
 cocted. If we a^sunle that the cost of the 
 International Railway will be 820,0U0,(10U 
 — and trom the experience ailorded by the 
 Grind 'J'ruiik there is too much reason to 
 iear it will be double that aim^uut— the pro- 
 portion which L'nptr Canada would have to 
 bear would bj !iiilo,OUU,OOU, and this added 
 to the already existing debt, would make our 
 direct debt S?o,44(;.0(t0. This increase in 
 our debt will be one of the fruits of Con- 
 federation. IJut it may I'C said that the road 
 will yield a revenue, though every member 
 of the House wh'j knows anything of rail- 
 way statistics; and the eUaraelerot ihe coun- 
 try to be traversed by the lutern:itional Kail- 
 way, must know that this is impos.-^ible. 
 My houorablc friend from Toronto (Hon. 
 
 Mr. Itoss) when h> issued his flimicg pro- 
 spectus to the capitalists of Kngland ffidly 
 hoped that the Grand Trunk would pay U 1 
 per cent, on the investment. Hut wo know 
 how the;c expectations have been di-ap- 
 puinted by the actual result, and so far from 
 there being grounds to hope that the Inter- 
 colonial Railway will -eeupy a better position, 
 there is too much reasou to fear tha' 't will 
 be still worse. Why, the cost of its main- 
 tenance could hardly be le.-s than S-jOO.OOO 
 per annum beyond all its rceeipts. How 
 the ould ^ueh n work be considered io be 
 of bcnelit to the country 'I 
 
 Hon. Mn. RU.SS— In the same way as the 
 canals— by cheapening the cost of transport- 
 ation. 
 
 llo.v Mr; SI.Ml'SON— Thisisimposaiole. 
 It costs two cents per ton per mile to move 
 freight by rail, and as the distance from To- 
 ronto to Halifax is ll'iS miles, it would cc t 
 il:l''^ per barrel to inovt flour from Toronto 
 to that port ; while a barrel of fl ur can i. w 
 be sent t/<( the St. Lawrence at 50 cents or 
 under, and cla -New Vork at 5o cents. Tak- 
 ing another view of the scheme, in its finan- 
 cial aspect, we find that Canada now con- 
 tributes, in all f rms. to the support of the 
 General Government, over !B10,UUO,"iUl.» per 
 annum. No one will say that we shall be 
 called upon to eonnibute less under Confed- 
 eration. And if we add to this , im the in- 
 tcrc.'it.at five per cent., on the additional debt 
 of 8iri,UU(i,(.HJ0 created by the proposed rail- 
 way and the cxpenso of two local govern- 
 ments, a.-suming them to eo:t Sl,(iiil.!,(.lO(i 
 each, which is beluw the mark, witii 81,00(1,- 
 000 to be expended annually on the militia, 
 as well as our share of maintaining and rui.- 
 ning the railway, we will find that the people 
 of the two Caoadas will be called upon t.i 
 contribute •S;4,-UU,0i.»0 annually, instead ol 
 the 810,000,000, as at present. And 1 Mouhl • 
 ask honorable gctlcmeu if the country is in 
 a position to beui* this additional bui>K ii ''. 
 (Hear, hear.) Really, looking at the <iue.«- 
 tion of expense, 1 am not sure whether I 
 would not be in favor of returning to the 
 primitive system of administering the affairs 
 of the country — in preference to Laving this 
 scheme — )y a Governt in Council. (Laugh- 
 ter.) .Vor there is no question that our an- 
 nual expenditure will be, under Confedera- 
 tion, at least many millions more than at 
 jiresLOt, with t'lecost added thoveto of main- 
 taining and lunniiig the Intercolonial Rail- 
 way — a work which can never pay. 
 
 ii 
 
 'Ml I 
 I 
 
^-*r.#^*-''i'JPV 
 
 '^iM^ 
 
 21 
 
 Hon. 31r. FEURIKtt— It was predicted 
 wLon it was ^roposod to Duild tliu Kiv'iTu 
 du Loup section ■)*' tho Grand rnuK that it 
 would uevcr pay, but tlic fuel in that for the 
 laiit two yearn it has not ouly paid expcQ^e:^, 
 but has f,'iven a profit. 
 
 Hon. Mu. SIMI'SON— 1 should not con- 
 tradict the honornliic •gentleman, bi i;uuiic he 
 knows uioro about 11 rand Trunlv niattt-rn 
 than I do, or most other people ; i. ..t uiy late 
 respected Irijnd, Mr. FiiEKR, wlio was the 
 lessee of that i^cetioti during two or three 
 year.H, told lue that, while ik:eei\ ing a suii!>idy 
 of $l>',000 per annum for runniii:; it, with 
 the I'ree use of four engines, and with a 
 .■■uitable eouipment of roliini; stock, it would 
 have .'uined him had he continue<i to work 
 tl e line cvcQ on thoso apparently favorable 
 terms. 
 
 lIcN. Mn. rKlllllKU— It is perhaps use- 
 less for mc to say anytliini; more, as the hon- 
 orable j^catleman will not believe what I .--ay, 
 — (lion. xMr. yi.Mi'su.N — Hear, heurj — but 
 all I can .'>tatc is, that a premium was ( ll'orcd 
 for the lease of tho line, but the company 
 determined to take po.sscssion of it. 
 
 Hon. Mu. SIMrSON— JJutthe real ques- 
 tion is, what was the cost of original con- 
 struction, the intcrist on that amount, and 
 til ; coht ol' m".inteiKinee i Take these charges 
 into Uv:eouut, and it would re((uire a ;)retty 
 1 irgc rental to cover them, much Ir.igcr, 1 
 think, than any responsible person would 
 otl'cr lor a lease of the lino. As to the In- 
 tercol'j :,: ;l ILiilwiy, we have no information 
 Irom the ■." vijiiinent rcs"ceting t'.e route 
 to b: I !■ />* :d )T the len^iui or cost of the 
 road ; bin Irom ..;ures I have been able to 
 obtain, the foUcwing iv y bo taken to be 
 nearly correct : — 
 
 Miles T l>c 
 luiilt. >juilt. 
 I- rum Hiilil'ax to I'ruro . 05 
 
 . . 'f luro to Sl'"(ii;ic '.'(• 
 
 . . Shediac to St. .lohii U)H 
 
 . . St. John to St. Androw.s 
 
 (uiulor contract) 1') 
 
 St. Andrc\v,sto Wooilstock.. JO 
 Woodstock to Uivicrdj Leap .. IGO 
 
 223 32,'i 
 
 The total length of road from llivierc du 
 Loup is 548 miles; add from lliviero du 
 Loup to (.aebcc, 12(3 males j Quebec to Mont- 
 real, 170 miles; Montreal to Toronto, about 
 330 miles ; so that we have a total of l,ll3S 
 miles over yhieh it is gravely proposed to 
 send Hour and other heavy produce during 
 
 the winter months. (Hear, hear.) As has 
 been already stated, before a barrel of flour 
 could reach Halifax from Toronto, it would 
 be nearly oaten up in expenses. [An honor- 
 iible member — Thero would Itf nothing 
 left but the hoops. (LaughtcrVJ It has 
 been urged that under \Joiifcderation an 
 active traue would spring up between Canada 
 and the Maritime I'rovinces. A trade in 
 what '! What have wc to send them ex- 
 cepting tlour and the cojirser grains? Tiio 
 foimcr, as has been shown, cannot be sent, 
 and the latter they do not reciuir.. The 
 principal articles of export from the Lower 
 I'rovinces are fi-h, timber and .shi;- . V/e 
 can take a moderate quantity of fish ; but 
 our forests supply us with an al iindance of 
 timber, and the .ship yards of '.Quebec turn 
 out some of the linest sailing ships in the 
 world. The true markets for the principal 
 staples of erp'^rt i'or these provinces arj 
 New York and Boston. Small vessels from 
 tiiirty to lifty tons, laden with fob, run from 
 the Maritiiui; I'rovinces to these ports, 
 where thoy dispo.sc of their cargoes ami 
 purchase with the proceeds corn meal, flour, 
 pork, molas.ics and other necessaries, liu. 
 it has been left lor our Canadian statesmen 
 to propose new politicid alliaiiees in order 
 to Uivert traile and commerce from their 
 natural thanuels. It is yet further said in 
 favor of Confederation tiiat it will incre-jse 
 our po>>or of defence, in the ordinary ac- 
 ceptance of the term, union und'iubtedly is 
 strengtli ; but there are oases in which 
 union, instead of being a source of strengtli, 
 i^ in reality an element of weakness. If wo 
 could attach the territory possessed by the 
 moon to these provinces, and obtain the as- 
 sistance lor our joint t'efenco of the man 
 who is popularly suppo-cd to inhabit that 
 luminary, we might derive strength irom 
 the Confederation. (Laughter.) Hut al- 
 though .tolin Bull is accused ol doing many 
 foolish tilings, i am persuaded that the 
 Mother <'ouutry is far too wise to entrust 
 the lives of her valuable Eoldicrs wf.en sent 
 to our uefei:''c — as in case of need 1 feel 
 well assured they would be — in passing over 
 a road so liable to attack and so easy of 
 destruction by our neighbors on the other 
 side, should we uu'"jrtunately ever become 
 involved with them in war, which I sincerely 
 pray may never occur, (ilcr.r, hear.) In 
 conclusion 1 have simply to say that 1 cannot 
 possibly vote for the '^chemo before the 
 House, and thereby deprive . wealthy aiid 
 
? 
 
 22 
 
 intelligeut frcemeu, who have twice elected 
 mo unanimously, of a constitution obtained 
 by long years of struggle, without knowing 
 what wo linvc to offer thcni in its etcad. 
 (Cheers ) 
 
 Friday, Feiruari/ 17, 18G5. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CUHUIE «aid— Hon. gentle- 
 men, with the consent of luy hon. friend 
 opposite (Hon. Mr. ])i(:KSf).v) who h en- 
 titled to the lloor, in consequence oi' havin<; 
 moved the adjournment of the debate, I 
 rise for the purpose of proposinj^ the resolu- 
 tion which ior some le:igth of time has been 
 before the House, on the notije-paper. It is 
 one which, [ iliiuk, should conimend itself 
 to the good sense and impartial judgment 
 of the members of this Honorable House ; 
 and I shall be surprised if it shall meet any 
 degree of opposition from the lion. trentle- 
 mcn representing the Government in this 
 branch of the JiOgislati .-c. (Houi-, hear.) 
 The resolution is as follows : — 
 
 That uj)oii ii matliT of such ;;Ti'at iinportauco 
 '.IS the ]iiii-jjOse(l C'or.iV-deratiiMi ot'lljii mid cprlaMi 
 oilier JJritiali colouie.-s, this Hoine is unwilliiii; to 
 iissume tho responsihilily of :is<eutiii;j to a 1110:1- 
 suro involving- so many iiii|)iirtaiit ciiiL^iJeratioiix, 
 without riirthcr niaiiitistation of the public will 
 than lias yet boon declared. 
 
 It is not aimed at cithi-r tiic destruction 
 O"; the defeat of tlic re-^oliitions before tho 
 House. It simply a<ks for delay until such 
 time as the people of the country can more 
 f-.illy osprc'^ their views on the matter, than 
 they have hitherto had an opporf"i>cty of 
 doing. Hon. gentlemen, 1 stated, when I 
 first addre.v-'od this (,'h:!mber in reference to 
 the proposed address, that I was not opposed 
 to the Confederation of the I'ritish Pro- 
 vinces in itself, but tint I was opposed to 
 many of the details ombraeed in tho reso- 
 lutions upon which thi.s Hou.=,; Is asked to 
 ibund an Address to Her Majesty the 
 Queen. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. lluss) 
 who foliowe I me upon thut occasion, stated 
 among other thinrs, that 1 !i:;d attempted 
 to decry the Lower Provir.ces, and that 1 
 had attempted a'so to decry tlic credit of 
 Canada. I appeal to lion, members present, 
 who were good enough to listen to me on that 
 occasion, to point out a single word whicli I 
 sai I, reflecting upon the credit of the people 
 of the ettstcrn provinces. Instead of havimr 
 said anything to their discredit, I tliought 
 
 I had paid them a very high compliment. 
 So far from reflecting upon tlie character of 
 the public men uf those provinces, I alluded 
 to but one of them by name, the Hon. Mr. 
 Tir,LKY, and I paid him the compliment, 
 which ho fully merits, ot stating that he 
 must be ranked among tho leading and most 
 prominent of British American statcmen. 
 (Hear, hear.) As to my decrying the credit 
 of Canada— if, to tell the truth— il, toopcak 
 tho honest convictions of one's mind — if, to 
 state to the world what tho Public Accounts 
 of our country tell* us— if this be to decry 
 the credit ct' our country — then I am guilty 
 of the charge. But tho hon. gentleman went 
 on and told us, that my speech was so illo 
 gical that it was unworthy of notice. 
 Hox. Ma. HOSj^— I did not s:.y that. 
 IIo.v. Mr. CUllUIE— The hon. gentle- 
 man said what amounted to that. And j-et 
 to my astonishment he fjund it necc-sary to 
 reply to me ''u a speech four columns in 
 length— a speech, however, in which be 
 failed to controvert a single position which 
 I had the honor to take on that occasion. 
 Then [ was charged with having attackeil 
 statements of fact made by our public men. 
 Ho.\. Mil. KOSS— Hear.' hear ! 
 Ho.\. .Mr. CUIUIIJ';— Tile hon. gentle- 
 man from Toronto says " Hear, Ii:ai'.'' IJiit 
 I ask, is it not the duty of hon. gen- 
 tlemen, standing on the lloor of thi< 
 House, to correct misstatements whieii have 
 been sent to the country? Was I doing 
 anything more than my dut/, when, in 
 my humble way, [ endeavored to correct 
 what, if not misstatements, were at least 
 ovident'y incorrect statements ? Wc have 
 had too mucii of that kind of thing in tliis 
 country. And since my hon. friend from 
 Toronto (Hoc. Mr. Ku.ss) has chosen to 
 remind n:c of it, I must say that I think it 
 is much to be regretteil that certain .-tate- 
 ments have been made in this country, and 
 sent from this country, which, instead ol' 
 helping to build up our credit, have done 
 much to injure if. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps 
 I could not allude to anything more forcibly 
 in point, than the tinning prospectus sent to 
 tho world under the auspices of my hon. 
 friend from Toronto, in which he promi.^ed 
 the confiding capitalists of England a 
 dividend of 1 11 I'cr cent, on the stock they 
 might subscribe to the Grand Trunk Hail- 
 way. 
 
 Hon. Mr ItO.^S— Was it Hot U\{ 
 (Laughter.) 
 
2B 
 
 Hon. Mr. CrRKjTE— No; lie was not so 
 
 iiioilest as to put it at 11]. (Jjaughter.) It 
 was lU ])er cent. I was chiirpjcd with 
 .ittackiug the statements of the Jlon. Mr. 
 TiLLKY. I stated, when last addressini; the 
 House, that Hon. Mr. Tillev informed a 
 public meeting;— I think in St. John, New 
 Mrun.swick— that the tari(F of Canada was in 
 liict an 11 per cent, tariff, .ind my hon. friend 
 from Toronto said that Hon. Mr. Tilley was 
 correct in niakin;^ tliat statement. 
 
 Ho.N. Mil. l!<iSS— What 1 said was that 
 tlie a\era'^o duty cu the whole imports of the 
 couutrj-, including the free ^oods, was 11 
 per cent. 
 
 llox. Mn. CflRllIK— Then 1 must say 
 that that is a very novel way of arriving at 
 the tarilf of a country— to lake all the duti- 
 able goods, to add to them all the free goods, 
 .md then to average the duty on the whole. 
 It may be a very convenient, but it is not a 
 correct or honest mode in my opinion. 
 
 Hon. Mil. IIOSS— It is precisely what 
 Hon. Mr. Tilley did ; and 1 did it in the 
 jiame way. 
 
 Hon. .Mil. CUllillE— IMy hon. friend 
 told us that our presLUt able and talented 
 Finance Minister had stated the tariff of 
 our country to be an 11 per cent (arifF. I 
 asked my hon. friend when tlie Finance 
 Minister stated that ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSS— I said that, taking 
 ihe statements Hon. Mr. (iAf/r had fui^ 
 iiishcd with reference to the tariff of customs 
 duties, and the aiuount of imports of dutiable 
 and free goods, and finding the average of 
 the whole to be 1 1 percent,, Hon. Mr. Tillf.y 
 hail made a statement based on Hon. Mr. 
 (i.\lt'.s own figuroj. 
 
 Hon. Mti. tJlIRlUE— I find the report 
 makes my hon. friend say, tliat " The Hon, 
 .■^Ir. TiLLEV had ({uoted the figures of our 
 own Minister of Finance." He was wrong 
 in tliat statement, because Hon. Mr. Tilley, 
 ■ m the occasion 1 referred to, had ouotcd the 
 figures furnislioJ by the Comptroirer of New 
 lirunswick. 
 
 Hon. Ma. ROSS--Tho Comptroller of 
 New J5runswick coidl not furnish the figures 
 of the trade of Canada. 
 
 H(,N. Mil. CURRIE— Surely my hon, 
 I riend wi llvemember, that, to give ofHeial force 
 I I the statement of Hon. Mr. Tilley, he said 
 I liut, after the Comptroller of the province 
 had reviewed our tariff, he came to the con- 
 clu.iioii that it was but an 11 per cent, tariff. 
 I (luotc from the report : — 
 
 lion. Mr. Til i.KV iiad i|UotcrItIie tlLfuivs of oui 
 own Minister of iMiiaucf, and tlie hon. riiernb(!i 
 liud ioi)iesented him iis not spoaking tlw tnilli, 
 but as, iu eirect,{attomptiiij.' to deciive those whom 
 he iij(h'essi'il. ■ 
 
 Hon. Mr. CFRRiE begged to knowwhen 
 the Finance Minister of Canada liad stated 
 the .iveragc duties coUecti i] in Canada were 
 11 per cent. When ho (Hon. Mr. Ross) de- 
 sired to be no Lnger interrupted, 1 ceased to 
 Mjterrupt him, and hcdidnjt give me an 
 answer to the question. Rut, if the hon. 
 member from Toronto will turn to the cele- 
 brated speech of the Mii;ister of Finance 
 made only the other day at Sherbrooke, ho 
 will find that Hon .Mr. C.vlt puts tlie Canada 
 tariff at "JO per cent. 
 
 11( N. Mil. ROSS — IJut he did not in- 
 cluded the free -nods ; that is all. 
 
 Hon. Mil. CCRRIE— No; he did not 
 include the free gooils. Rut 1 siy that if 
 he had taken the value of dutiable goods, a.s 
 wo find it given in the Trade Ucturns of 
 ls(i:j — the last complete returns f jr a year 
 that we have — instead arriving at the con- 
 clusion that wc had a tariff of only 20 per 
 cent., lie would have found that the actual 
 duty on the dutiable goods impor.ed in 1.SG3 
 'vas ll'ii per cent, (Hear, liear.) Then my 
 hon. friend from Toronto came to the a>sis- 
 tanco of Mr. Lynch of Halifa.x. .Vnd, not 
 stopping there, he undertook the dtfeuce of 
 the present President of the Couucil (Hou. 
 -Mr. Rrown) and the I'loviueial Secretary 
 (Hon. -Mr. McBoug.vll.) I^confess 1 was a 
 little amused, and somewhat surprised to 
 find my hon. friend from Toronto becoming 
 the apologist and champion of those hou. 
 gentlemen, who, 1 believe, arc ; perfectly 
 competent on all occasions to take care of 
 themselves — even without the assistance of 
 my hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) He next 
 alluded to the propriety and necessity — 
 when the people of Canada were ou the point 
 of forming a partnership with the other pro- 
 vinces — of our knowing what the assets of 
 those provinces were — what stock they were 
 bringing into the common concern. 1 had 
 shewed that we had a great many valuable 
 public works — some of them of a profitable 
 character. My hon. friend told us that the 
 Lower Provinces too were engaging in prolit- 
 ublo works. He told us that ^'cw Rrunswick 
 had spent cigiit millions of dollars en rail- 
 waj-s, and Nova Scotia six millions — and 
 that from those railways those provinces 
 were getting a net rt-VOQue of SUO.OOO, or 
 
24 
 
 870,000 ii year taoli, which would go into 
 the revenue of iho Gcucral (ioverncment. 
 Well, hon. gentlemen, when such statciuents 
 arc made on the floor of this llou.sc, they of 
 course go abroad, and those who make tliciii 
 ought to he well satisfied that they arc based 
 on reliable fact 
 
 Hon. 31.1. HOSS— Ho they woie. 
 
 Ildx. Mit. CURUIE— AVcU, I was very 
 much struck by the hon. gentlemen's state- 
 ment. L was surprised to find it stated, in 
 the liist place, that those provinces had 
 alreidy spent so much on railways, and, in 
 the next pla.'c, that those railways in the 
 eastern provinces were so much more pnv 
 titable and paid so much better than the 
 railways in Canada, ^''^w, I find, on looking 
 at the Public Accouns of those provinces 
 — the very latest available — thnt the New 
 IJruuswick railways cost 84,27r),00ll, and 
 that the Nova Scotia railways cost ??4,f)fll5,- 
 288 — that the New Brunswick railways in 
 1!:>G2 paid 821,711 net, and the Nova Scotia 
 railways, 840,739 — making together, instead 
 of 8140,000 for the two provinces, as stated 
 by my hon. friend fiom Toronto, the small 
 sum of 8G2,4oO. And this too, hon. gentle- 
 men will bear in mind, was from new rail- 
 ways, or railways comparatively new — and 
 they will find, if they take the trouble to 
 examine the accounts, that the cost of the 
 repairs of those railroads, as of every other 
 railroad after it has become somewhat worn, 
 is increasing year by year. 
 
 Hon. Mr.'KOSS— The House will recol- 
 lect that I took the figures which were 
 prompted to mo while speak'n.T. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURUIE — That is the 
 mistake which, I fear, has btcn committed 
 during the whole of this discussion. (Hear, 
 hear.) Our public men liave been too 
 reckless in making statements — statements 
 in the cast, as to the prosperity of Canada ; 
 .'pd statements in the west, as to the wealth, 
 property and resources of those eastern 
 provinces. Now, hon. gentlemen, let ua 
 look at our public works, which my hon. 
 friend in a moasuro tried to bcdittle and 
 decry. 
 
 Hon. BIr. ROSS— I did not be-little 
 them ; I said that indirectly they were of 
 of great value to the country. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— Yes; and directly 
 too. I find, by the Public Accounts of the 
 province, that in 1803 the net revenue of 
 our public works — all of which are going 
 to the Confederate Government — yielded to 
 
 this province a net revenue of 8303,187 — 
 and that our public works cost this pro- 
 vince, faking the amount set down in the 
 statements of affairs of the province, 825,- 
 il31,l(JS. So much for the stock — so far as 
 the public works at all events arc con- 
 cerned — that this province is prepared to 
 pat into the partnership with the other 
 provinces. (Hear, hear.) 1 shall refer no 
 further to the remarks made i'y my hon. 
 friend from Toronto in answer to the few 
 wordfi T addressed to the House the other 
 day, beyond expressing my regret that my 
 hon. friend should not merely have been 
 dissatisfied with the statements T made, but 
 that he should have called upon mc to take 
 exception to the style and the manner in 
 which my r.Mnarks weve submitted to the 
 Honorable IIou-". 
 
 Hon. JIr. ROSS — I said, the temper 
 and tone. 
 
 Hon. Mr, CURIUE— From the atten- 
 tion you were kind enough to give me, hon. 
 gentlemen, on that occasion, and from the 
 way ill which my remarl.s were received 
 both by my political ojipoucnts and my 
 political friends, I had hoped that I had not 
 exceeded tlv« bounds of propriety — that, 
 neither in my temper nor in ?ny tone had I 
 violated the rules of this House. If I did 
 so I regret it, and I may be allowed to 
 express the hope that when v.>y native land 
 has paid one-fourth as much for my poli- 
 tical education as it has paid for that of my 
 hon. friend from Toronto — if my manners 
 still fail to be those of a CnESTiiUFiEi,n, or 
 my eloquence that of a Pitt — I shall at all 
 events be able to treat my fellow members 
 with courtesy and propriety. (Hear, hear.) 
 Rut, having these little matters to take care 
 of themselves, I shall now allude to th.e 
 strong pressure which seems, om some 
 source or other, to be urging the . :esen- 
 tativcs of the people of Canada, and the 
 people themselves, to adopt this important 
 scheme without that time for deliberate 
 consideration which a matter of that kind 
 is entitled to. I am satisfied tliat that 
 pressure docs not come from the people 
 themselves. I am satisfied it does not come 
 either from this or from the other branch 
 of the Legislature. I entertain the fear, 
 which has been expressed before, that it 
 has been n, pressure from without, which 
 has been urging u,-> lo take this step too 
 rapidly, I fear, for our country's goof^. It 
 may bo that the statesmen of Great Rritaiu, 
 
25 
 
 auJ that a ;^reat portion of the people of 
 (irfat Britain are very auxious for this 
 iiu -lire, and that the press of that country 
 >j;eacrally approves of it. Hut, wlicn they 
 riijhtly understand it— w lion p;irtios holding 
 (>ur jirovincial securities knn-v that Con- 
 lodoralioii nn^ins more debt, more tax:itioD, 
 and a worse public credit— we will hav; 
 another cry coming from across the Atlantic. 
 Ami when Uritish mauulacturers know that 
 (Confederation means a highe.' tariff on 
 British goods, we shall have different views 
 from theui also, crossing the Atlantic. (Hear, 
 hear.) Hon. gentlemen, when I left my 
 eonstitucncy, I had little idea that this 
 measure was going to be pres.od upon the 
 country in the manner in which I sec the 
 (Jovernment of tlie day are attempting to 
 press it. I think we should pause before 
 adopting these resolutions. I think we want 
 some more inlormation befoi'> wc adopt 
 them. Before we vote away our local con- 
 stitutions—before wc vote away in fact our 
 whole constitution — we .should know some- 
 thing of what we are going to get in place 
 of what we are giving away. Did any hon. 
 gentleman suppose, before iie left his home, 
 that we would not have the whole scheme 
 of Confederation brought down t ) us, and be 
 asked to pa.ss a judgment on it, or to con- 
 sider it at all e\cnts as a whole shen e ? I 
 think wo ought to be eautioiis in taking 
 iialf a measure until we know what is the 
 whole of it. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentle- 
 men will remember the caution with which 
 the Parliament of England proceeded, in 
 18;5t», when dealing with the rights of the 
 people of Canada. At that t^me there was 
 an urgent necessity for a new Constitution 
 for the people of Canada, and a gnat neces- 
 sity for it, particularly '.n tlie eastern pro- 
 vince. When tlie Government of the day 
 brought down tl eir resolutions— in some- 
 t!uu_,- like the same ,hape as those now 
 before the House — resolutions embodying 
 the principle of a Legislative Union — the 
 leader of the opposition, JiOrd SrANfiEV, 
 claimed that the whole measure should be 
 brought down ; and the Government of tho 
 day was actually compelled, by the force of 
 public opinion in and out of I'arliameut, to 
 withdraw the resolutions, and to bring down 
 their entire measure. (Hear, hear.) And 
 are we to be less careful of our own consti- 
 tutional rights — are we to gu;ird more 
 loosely the interests of ourselves and those 
 who are to come after u.s— than tho people 
 
 legislating for us three or four thou.sand miles 
 away ? Be.sides, we are asked by those reso 
 lution.s to pledge our province — to what '/ 
 To build the Intercolonial Kailwuy, without 
 knowing, ns I stated the other day, where 
 it is to run, or what it is to cost. Why do 
 wo not have the report of the able engineer 
 sent to survey and repori, -vi that work? 
 Why is it delayed ? Why is it attempted to 
 hurry this measure through the Legislature, 
 while we arc in the dark with reference to 
 that great undertaking ? U maybe th.it it 
 is kept back designedly, and fur the purpo.se 
 of furthering this very measure, not here, 
 but in other parts of Ilritis!? America. 
 
 Hon. Mk. CAMPBELL— 3Iy hon. friend 
 i.s going too far. The report has not yet been 
 made, and, that being the case, it is some- 
 what extraordinary to charge the Government 
 with keeping it I'.ck. 
 
 Ho.N. Mr. CUKlllK— Certainly ; I think 
 the case is bad enough, when the (Jovern- 
 ment are charged mere'y with what they 
 have done. And I have no desire to make 
 an incorrect statement Jjut I will put it in 
 this way : I think we hive good reason to be 
 surprised, that the (nuvrnment .should como 
 down with their scheme, and submit it to 
 the House, before they even themselves know 
 what the work is to cost. ( Hear, hear.) And 
 ask this House and the country to pledge 
 themselves to the construction of a work of 
 which they do not even know the eost them- 
 selves. (Hear, hoar ) i'ut, if the report has 
 not been prepared, we have been told in the 
 public prints that the survey is either 
 finished, or very nearly finished. The report, 
 therefore, can soon be furnished ; and, why 
 shor'd there be so much hurry and .•inxicty 
 to pass these resolutions before we get it ? 
 Then, again, why do the Government not 
 bring dowu those Schools Bills which have 
 been promised ? Why are the people, or why 
 is Parliament, to h:;vc no opportunity of pa,ss- 
 ing judgment upon tho.se mca.surcs — the 
 .School Bill for Pppcr Canada, and the School 
 Bill for Lower Canada — before ibis Confeder- 
 ation scheme is adopted '/ 1 cannot sec tho 
 propriety of keeping back these matters; and 
 1 do not think the members of the Govern- 
 ment can show any reason whatever why 
 they should not be settled at once. ThcL, 
 hon. gentlemen, we should know soincthii.g 
 about the division of the public debt. If 
 hon. gentlemen will *ake up the Public 
 Accounts placed in their hands during the 
 present session, they will find a statement O'- 
 
t 
 
 as 
 
 the liabilities of this province, certifying the 
 amount to be no less th:in 877,20;!,282. Now 
 it ia well known that Canada is only al'owod 
 to take into the Coufodcratitm the debt of 
 862,500,000. Wo have a right to ask how 
 the other 815,000,000 are to be paid '! By 
 whom arc they to be assumed ? What portion 
 is I'pper Canada to assume '! What portion 
 is Lower Canada to assume 'i (Hear, hear.) 
 Then, hon. gentlemen, if we adopt these 
 resolutions, and a bill based on them is 
 brought into the Imperial Parliament and 
 carried — look at the power which is given 
 to the Confederate l\irliauicnt. They have 
 the power lo impose local taxation u[» on e ch 
 ol the separate provinces I would like to 
 know how that power is to be exercised; I 
 would like to know whether it is to be a capi- 
 tation tax, or an acreage tax upon the lands 
 of the province, or wlietlier it is to be a 
 I, IX u;:'on the general property of the pro- 
 vince. 1 am sure there is I'l) lion, gentle- 
 man present who would not like information 
 on these points, before voting for tin- 
 seheme. (Hear, hear.) Then, iion. geutlc- 
 me:i, there is another vcr/ important quos- 
 .'.m — the (juestion of the defence of these 
 r.ovinces — which within a i'e>v months has 
 taken a shape which it never took before in 
 tlie history of this country. I shall trespass 
 on the attention of the House for t'ew 
 moments, while I read an extract from a 
 very able report on that (juestion, which 
 ranks, and in tune to come too will rank, 
 deservedly high as a ;<tate paper. It is a 
 memorandum of the Executive Council, 
 dated — October, 18(52, at the time the 
 Macdonald-Sicutte Ad.niui«tration held 
 office. And, whatever the errors of that 
 (tovcrument might have been, however they 
 may have been fonnd fault with in other 
 matters, I believe the people generally were 
 of opinion that the stand wliich the Govern- 
 ment took on that (juestion, was one which 
 entitled them to the respect and confidence of 
 the community at large. The Government 
 say in this memorauduni : — 
 
 That they arc nut unwilling' to try lo the 
 utmost to eomply with the su-'.^'estions of the 
 Imperial Ooveniment is cvidoneod liy the inaiuier 
 ill whiel: the projected Ititereoloiiial Railway has 
 hoen ci'tert".uie''. Their eonduet in this matter 
 should relievo thein from every imputation. At 
 thesan-.e tirno. they iisist that they are and mu.st 
 he allowed to he the best jud/es of the |ire-;.sure 
 which the j roviiieiel credit can sii.^tain. Tliey 
 are jirepared, .subjact to eertaiii conditions, lo 
 encumber this credit with liabilities arir-inj' out of 
 
 the Intercolonial Railway, hut they arc not pre- 
 pared to enter upon a lavish expenditure to build 
 up a military system distasteful lo the Canadian 
 people, disiiroportionate to Cana<liaii resources, 
 and not called for by any circumstance of which 
 they at present have eoguizanee. 
 
 That is, the arming and bringing into the 
 field a force of 50,000 men. 
 
 Ills Grace, wliile promising liberal assist- 
 ance, contends that any available supply of 
 regular troops would be inienual to the defence 
 of the province — and that the main dependence 
 of such a country for defence must be upon its 
 own penple. Your K.vcellency's advisers would 
 not hi; faithful to their own convictions or to iho 
 trust reposed in ihem, if they withheld an expres- 
 sion of their belief that without very large assij- 
 lauce any eH'orls or saciitiee.s ut' wliii-h the people 
 of the province are capable, would not enable 
 ihcm suecesstully and for any lens;theued p' riod 
 to repel invasion from the neighboring republic. 
 They have relied fir |)rotection in some 'egree 
 upon the fact, that under no eoneeivablc eireums- 
 tances will they provoke war with the Uniied 
 States, and if therefore Canada should liecoine 
 the theatre of war resultinjj from Imperial policy, 
 while it would cheerfully put forth its strength in 
 the defence of its soil, it would nCTertlieless bo 
 obliged to rely for its i)rotection mainly upon 
 Imperial resources : and in such an event it is 
 their opinion that they would l)e justiliod in ex- 
 pecting to be assisted in the work oi' defence with 
 the whole strength of tlie empire. It is not ne- 
 cessary at this stage of tlieir history, to put for- 
 ward assurances of the readiness of t!ie Canadian 
 people to assume whatever responsibilities belong 
 to them as subjects of llcr Majesty. Their devo- 
 tion has been exhibited too often to bo o|)eu lo 
 doubt or de[)reeiation. They have made .sacri- 
 llccs that should relieve them from suspicion, and 
 which Her M.ijesty's Government should remem- 
 ber as a pledge of their fidelity. No porticm of 
 the empire is exposed to sufferings and sacrifices 
 equal to those which would inevitably fall upon 
 thi^ province in the event of war with tin; United 
 .States. No probable combination of regular 
 troop.^ and nrilitia would ji'^serve our soil from 
 invading armies ; and lu) lbrti..re which the most 
 sanguine dare luipe for would pirvent our most 
 llouiishing districts from liein;^ the bailie field of 
 the war. Our trade would be Inouirht to a st ird- 
 still, onr iiidnstry would he paraly/.ed, our richest 
 farmin:; lanils dev.astated, ol. towns and villages 
 destroyed ; homes, he'ppy in peace, would bo 
 rendered miserable liy war, and all as the resu.i 
 of events t'or the production of which Canada 
 would be in no wise accountable. 
 
 And, lion, gentlemen, that is not only 
 the language in ti.iics past of leading poli- 
 ticians in Canada. Hon. gentlemen may call 
 to mind the writings and sayings to the same 
 etfect of men in theea.-.tein provinces — men 
 now holding high position under the luipo- 
 
27 
 
 ot only 
 ig poli- 
 riay call 
 he fiiiuc 
 IS— men 
 2 laipe- 
 
 rial r.overmncnt. One hon. gentlemen, to 
 whom I have particular reference (Hon. 
 Joseph Howe) declared it wasunreasonab'e 
 to expect that we should defend ourselves 
 against a foreign power, when wo had no 
 voice either in the declaring of war or the 
 making of peace— that whiieVo xere (luitc 
 ready, as in times past, to expose our persons 
 and property to meet the invader at the 
 threshold of our country, we were unwilling 
 to take upon ourselves, as colonists, a duty 
 which belonged to the parent state, lint 
 does this correspond with the views that :-re 
 now adopted by che .Ministry of the da" : I 
 hold in '-ly hand an extract froui a speech 
 dehvcreu by one of the most prominent mem- 
 bers of the (iovernment at a recent banquet 
 lu the city of Toronto. AnJ what did that 
 hon. gentlemen say ? Speaking of the Con- 
 ference at Quebec, he stated that " the 
 delegates unanimously resolved that the 
 United Provinces of iJritisli North America 
 shall be placed at the earliest moment in a 
 thorough state of defence." Hon. gentlemen, 
 was not aware that the Imperial (jovcrn- 
 Ljpt had ever east off the burden of the 
 fence of this province. ]5ut we are told 
 ly an hon. gentlemen, high in the Execu- 
 tive, that this Conference, self-appointed as 
 It was, by a resolution that we do not see 
 laid upon the table, promised to place the 
 province in a thorough state of dcfouee. Hon. 
 gentlemen, what does that mean ? It moans 
 an cxpcndcture here of four or five millions 
 of dollars annually, or else the statement 
 exceeded the truth. Again the hon. ge>)tle- 
 man stated :— '< The Conference at Quebec 
 did not seperate before entering into a pledire 
 to put the military and naval defences of 
 the united provinces in the most com- 
 plete and satisfactory position." Before 
 we discuss this scheme further —before 
 we are called on to give a vote upon 
 U— I say we ought to know something more 
 with reference t s important matter. 
 
 (Hear, hear). Hon. gentlemen may perli.aps 
 argue that there is no necessity for this 
 question going to the people — no necessity 
 for further lime being allowed to the people 
 of Tapper Canada or of Canada generally to 
 consider this matter. Why, hon. gentlemen, 
 has it not been stated by every hon. member 
 who has taken the fl ^or to address the House 
 on this question, (liat it is the most impor- 
 tant question ever submitted to thi.s, or any 
 other British Colonial Legislature? And yet 
 many of tho.se hon. members are un grilling 
 
 that the people of this country should have 
 any further time to con.'iider ' .'s important 
 matter— although, by the l- . our land, 
 no municip.ility has a rigl . . ct or pa.ss 
 a by-law creating a little petty debt, not to be 
 raid off within a year, without submitting it 
 first to the vote of the people. (Hear.) Hon. 
 gendeu en assign an a reason why the matter 
 should not be submitted to the people- -that 
 we have had a number of elections to this 
 House .since it was known that the scheme 
 o''Confederation was under the consideration 
 of the Government, and that these elections 
 went favorably to the .scheme. I would ask, 
 hon. gentlemen, how many elections have 
 we had in Upper Canada since the scheme 
 was printed and laid before the people ? I 
 wou'd like to .«ee the hon. gentlemen stand 
 up, who has been elected to come here to 
 vote upon this scheme since it was submitted 
 to the people. It is true wo have had one 
 election in I'ppcr (JanaJa since that time — 
 my hon. friend near me (Hon. Mr. SimI'SO.n) 
 alluded to it yesterd.ay~the election in South 
 Ontario, a constituency until recently repre- 
 sented by one of the hon. gentlemen who 
 entered the Ministry which orings this 
 scheme before us- -our present esteemed 
 Viec-Chunceller of Upper Canada, Hon. Mr. 
 .MowAT. What did the candidates say at 
 that election ? IJotli of them, as stated bv 
 my hononorable friend, in asking the suf- 
 frages of the people, had to promise that, if 
 elected to Parliament, they would vote 
 for a submission of this scheme to the 
 people. (lle;ir, hear.) And that is the 
 la.it election we have had in Upper Canada. 
 It is true that many honorable gentlemen 
 now present, in their addie.s.<es to their 
 several constituencies, wl jn seeking election 
 l.'.st fall, said they were in favor of a union 
 ol the British .North American Provinces. 
 But, hon. gentlejiieii, there is not a man in 
 this Chamber, within the souud of my voice, 
 who would not say the same I am myself 
 as much in favor of C jufederation to-day us 
 ever I was in my life ; and I will challenge 
 any one to say that at any time, on any public 
 occasion, I evrsaid aught against the scheme 
 of the Confederation of the British North 
 American Provinces. (Hear, hear.) But, 
 honorable gentleme.;, when I look at this 
 .scheme, imperfect as I conceive it to be, 
 it receives m_, opposition, not because it is a 
 scheme for the Co'ifederation of British 
 North America, but because it is a scheme 
 containing witi in itsolf the serms of its 
 
f 
 
 «8 
 
 destruction. The resolution before the 
 House is not, as I .=aia '. ^forc, aimed at 
 the destruction of the scheme, and I hope 
 before the debate closes the Coverimieut 
 will sea the propriety and the advisability o 
 .-ranting the reasonable delay therein asked 
 for. Supp se the Government concedes even 
 the short delay of one uioath, it can do no 
 possible harm to the measure. If the mea- 
 sure be good— if it be so desirable rs the 
 governments of the respective provinces tell 
 us it i'— the simple permitting it to i tand 
 over for a month will certainly not destroy 
 it. Tf, on the other hand, it oe bad— if it 
 contain within itself the elements of decay- 
 it is better to know it now than '.lereaftcr, 
 when the resolutions will have been embodied 
 in 11 Statute over which we have no eontro . 
 To shew my own feeling in the matter, all 
 1 have to say is this : give a reasonable 
 delay— allow the section of the country 1 
 have the houur to represent to speak on the 
 subject, and if it be found to be the ^nll ot 
 my constituents that the measure in its 
 present shape be adopted, homrablc gentle- 
 men may be assured that I shall give ti.eiu 
 no further opposition ; and that instead of 
 doing everything in my power to impede the 
 progress of these resolutions, I will do nothing 
 to impede their progress through the House. 
 " But," say hon. gentlemen, " d»'r.y m^"y 
 defeat." If it be a good measure— if it 
 commend itself to the approval of the people, 
 supported as it is by th.-5 most able and 
 brilliant men in Parliament— the scheme is 
 in no danger. And, hon. gendcmea, sup- 
 posing a ii'onth's delay is granted, we will 
 even "then bo further advanced with the 
 measure than the people of the eastern pro- 
 vinces. The writs for the elections in Ncw- 
 lirunswick are returnable, if T mistake not, 
 on the 25th March. 
 
 H(.\. Mn. C.VMl'HKLL- On the 9th 
 March. 
 
 Hon-. Mm. (!rilR[E— Then it will be at 
 least the 21st or 22nd of .March before the 
 Le.'i.^lature of that colony can be called 
 together. 
 
 "Hon. Mr. CA-Ml'liKliL — I misunder- 
 stood tlio statement made by my hon. friend. 
 What 1 meant to say was that the Legislature 
 of Nevv- Brunswick is expected to assemble 
 on the 8th or Oth of March. 
 
 llo.v. M. CUKRIK— Then they are going 
 to hurry up matters there, I am sorry to 
 hear, nearly as fist as in t^anada, tho pcopla 
 of which have nut had the same opportunity, 
 
 at all events, of considering the question as 
 the people of New Brunswick. The people 
 of V-w Brunswick seem to be fully alive t 
 ti.e irrportance of this momentous ((uestion, 
 and I hope that when their verdict is given 
 it will be a well-considered verdict ; but this 
 wo do know, that it will not be given until 
 after a free and fair opportunity has been 
 afforded them of discussing the (luestion on 
 its merits in all its bearings. My hon. friend 
 from the Western Division (Hon. Mr. 
 McC E«) 'cally surprised me the other day 
 when he declared that an elective Legislative 
 Council was neither asked for nor desired by 
 the people. -My recollection is that the 
 Coujcil under the nominative system was u 
 standing grievance in Lower Canadi as well 
 as in Upper Canada. 
 
 Hon. Mr. McCllE.V— That was before 
 
 tho union. , , 
 
 Hon. Mr. CUHRIK— The demand arose 
 
 that the Council should be elective. 
 
 Hon. Mr. McCRl'LV — Not alter t'.e 
 
 union. , „ . , 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURIUE— My hon, friend is, 
 I can assure him, mistaken in stating thai 
 there were no petitions in favor of an elective 
 Legislative Council at the time of the chaug.-. 
 If my hon. friend will consult the Journals 
 of Parliament, he will find there petitions lor 
 the change ; he will find also that from the 
 town of Cobourg a petition was received in 
 favor of representation by ropulatioii in 
 this as well as in the other bran, h of the 
 Legislature. Bu: my hon. friend, in his ign... 
 r.ance of th.; facts of the case— although li.' 
 certainly handled the subieet with a g ind 
 deal of ability, though not with the ability 
 he usually puts torth when he has a good 
 cause to plc.id—^a laugh)— lULide a state- 
 nient which he could scarcely have cou.sideied 
 before bringing it under the notice of ibe 
 House. He said that a House appointed liy 
 the Crown would be more responsible to the 
 people than the present House. That. b"ii. 
 gentlemen, is certainly a new dociriiie to 
 me. If such would bo the case, w!iy, 1 a-k, 
 do you not apply the same system to the 
 other branch of the Legislature? In such 
 an event I feel a.-sured that the Govornment 
 of the day would have a much mo.e com tort- 
 able and pleasant life of it th.iii even the 
 present Government, strong and talented as 
 they undoubtedly arc. (L:iughter.) But, 
 says my hon. friend, once luore, the people 
 of Canada arc in favor ol ih.; scheme, in 
 regard to wliieh they have had ample time 
 
for holdiug meetings and adopting petitions. 
 ]}ut, I would aslv what did most of the mem- 
 bers even of this 'louse know of the scliemc 
 when they fir.'t came to Qiu^bcc !* Did we 
 icnow as much about it then as wu know 
 now? 
 
 Hon. Mil. itOSS— Yes. 
 
 Hon. 3Iu. CURRIK— My hon. friend 
 from Toronto .«ays, " Yes." 
 
 A Hon. MKMIUIU— No. 
 
 IIoN.Mu.CURIUK — Anolacrhon. mem- 
 ber replies, " no" I may say fo' uiysoif that I 
 have learned somethiui^even from the s]>ioch 
 of u.y hon. friend from Toronto that I did 
 not know before. The icoplc of tlie country 
 have been waiting, expecting this matter 
 would be discussed in Parliament, and that 
 the whole .scliemc would be presented so as 
 enable of its being judged of as a wh.ule. 
 Unfortunately, however, it is only a part of 
 the scheme which we have at this moment 
 before the Council. I di'' not have the plea- 
 sure of hearing the whole of the remarks of 
 my Lon. friend from Montreal (Hon. Mr. 
 Ferrikii), but I was greatly interested in 
 listening to the portion I did hoar. I rel'er 
 to what he said respecting the ministerial 
 crisis in June last. J thought that the cele- 
 brated memorandum, which, by the bye, 
 has since been in great part repudiated hy 
 the Government of the day, contained all 
 the ministerial explanations. ]}ut that scene, 
 so forcibly described by thehoii. gcntlen' -ti, 
 where the President of the Council met the 
 Attorney Cleneral East — 
 
 Hon. Mu. FERRIER— I did not say I 
 saw it. I only heard of it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— When the Hon. 
 Mr. ("arxikr embraced the Hon. Mr. 
 Rrown. (Laughter.) 
 
 Hon. Mr. FERRIER— I simply said it 
 was so report jd on the streets. 
 
 Hon. Mil. CURRIE— And the Hon. Mr. 
 HuoWN promised eternal allegiance to the 
 Hon. Mr. C.vrtier. (Laughter.) 
 
 Hon. iMit. FERRIER— I wa.s simply 
 giving the ou-dit of the day. I said I know 
 nothing whatever of it I'urther than what I 
 had heard on the streets. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Cl'RRIE — I must have mis- 
 understood my hon. i'riend. I thought he was 
 a witness of the affecting scene. (Laughter.) 
 But my hon. IVieud did tell the House 
 something which was new to me, and which 
 must have sounded as new to the country, 
 when he said that the Grand Trunk Railway 
 cost the people of Canada very Mttle. The 
 
 hon. gentleman seemed to think that I was 
 very much opposed to the (Jrand Trunk. 
 Rut never in my life have I spoken a 
 single word against the Grand Trunk as a 
 railway. I believe there is no I'on. gentle- 
 man wlio can possibly appreciate more 
 highly the commercial advantages tj this 
 country of that work than 1 do. .Vt the 
 .<amc time, I have taken occasion, and may 
 do so again if the necessity requires it, to 
 speak cf some of the transactions connected 
 with that undertaking. Let this work or 
 any other public work come under the atlen- 
 tion of this (Chamber, and it will receive at 
 my hands in the future, as in tlu; past, that 
 degree of co!i.'?ideration to which as a jjublie 
 work it is entitled. L hope the day is not 
 far distant when the Grand Trunk will 
 become what it ought to be, a strictly and 
 entirely commercial work, and when the 
 people of all classes and parties will look 
 upon it with favor. 
 
 Hon. Mr. FFRHIER— It is strictly a 
 commercial work now. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Cl'RRIE— My hon. fVieud 
 stated that it had cost the country a mere 
 trifle. Rut unluckily the Public Accounts 
 do not tell the same story, and they do not 
 exactly confirm the views of my hon. friend 
 in relation to this work. If l:e looks at ilu- 
 assets of the province — the valuables of tlu- 
 province — he will find there is a charge 
 against the Grand Trunk of S15,lil',OiiO 
 for debentures. And besides there is this 
 little 8100,000 wliieli has be.n used in re- 
 deeming the city of Montreal bonds. There 
 is something more besides about siil).>idiar_v 
 lines. 
 
 Hon. Mr. FERRI::R-I spoke ol' the 
 first capital investment. 
 
 Hon. Mr. crRRIE— .My hon. friend 
 from the J'lrie Division (Hon. .Mr. Cuius ru;) 
 admitted in opening his ease that this scheme 
 was very mueli marred by its details. Ad- 
 mitting this — which is just the whole argi-- 
 meiit — that the details so greatly mar tiii- 
 scheme, It is much to be fearid thut tiie 
 measure will not work so peacfully. use- 
 fully, or harmoniously as its originators 
 expected, and 1 believe sinceri-ly hoped it 
 would do, because I do these hmi. gentlemen 
 the credit of believing that ia devising a 
 scheme which should be fi r the future as 
 well as the present welfare of the country, 
 they were animated by a desire to tl.e very 
 best they cjuld under the circuuistanees. 
 Their groat error, in my opinion, lay in 
 
 J 
 
 I 
 
90 
 
 their yielding too much on the pait of 
 Canada to gratify the eastern provinces, so 
 as to enable them to bring about this scheme 
 at the present moment. If the scheme is 
 so marred in its details as to destroy the 
 whole measure, why net reject it? Then 
 my hon. friend alluded to the state of the 
 country, just before the present Government 
 was formed in terms which I hardly think 
 he was justified in using, lie claimed that 
 the country was in a state of anarchy and 
 confu-iion. Now, hon. gentlemen, 1 must 
 say that for my part I saw none of that 
 anarchy, and I must say very little of 
 that confusion. 1 assert that there may 
 be witnessed in other lands what was 
 witnessed in this. AVc saw weak govern- 
 ments st living month after month to keep 
 themselves in power, and we saw these 
 governments daily and hourly attacked 
 by astrong and wary opposition. But, hon. 
 gentlemen, I have yet to learn that the 
 giving of 17 additional members to Upper 
 Canada and 47 members to the eastern pro- 
 vinces will ensure us against the sr.-ae state 
 of things in the future. It was very well put 
 by the hon. member for Wellington (lion. 
 Mr. iSanborn) when he said if there was 
 more patriotism on the part of our public 
 men, and less desire to sacrifice the country 
 for the good of party, we would not have had 
 that state of confusion to which my hon. 
 friend from the Erie Division has alluded. 
 Then my hon. friend who represents the 
 Erie Division, inorder to fortify the position 
 he took in supportinij the scheme, took up 
 the resolutions adopted by (he Toronto lie- 
 form Convention in 1859. ile stated that I 
 was a delegate present at that convention ; 
 but I can only say that although elected a 
 delegate, I took no part in the proceedings, 
 and know nothing more of them than 1 
 learned from the public prints. The hon. 
 gentleman, however, conveniently read only 
 apart of the resolutions. But it must be .ad- 
 mitted that these resolutions were the iden- 
 tical basis upon which the present Govern- 
 ment was organized. This Government 
 was organized for the express purpose of 
 carrying out the arrangciuionts embodied in 
 the resolutions of that bcJy. And, hon. 
 gentlemen, a committee was appointed by 
 the Toronto Conventioi , and that committee 
 prepared a draft address to the public. That 
 was submitted to the executive committee, 
 and considered on the 15th of February, 18G0, 
 and was revised and sent to the country t\a 
 
 tiic address of tha fionvention, of which the 
 hon. member for Erie was a member, and 
 over which he also presided as one of 
 the vico-chairmen. And what did they 
 
 say 
 
 ? That convention never intended that 
 
 Parliament should change the Constitution or 
 give us a new Constitution without consulting 
 the people and allowing the public an oppor- 
 tunitj of pa.ssing its judgment upon the pro- 
 posed new Constitution. And how did this 
 convention propose to secure the people the 
 right of passing judgment upon so impor- 
 tant a scheme as the udoption of a new 
 Constitution ? Here ii is, in large type — and 
 I have no doubt my hon. friend has often 
 read it in going through his large, wealthy, 
 and prosperous division. 
 
 Hon. Ma. CHKISTIP]— It was not pre- 
 sented to th'i convention. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CI'RRIE— I wish to put my 
 hon. friend right. The meeting was held 
 on the '23rd September, 1859, and it was 
 presided over by the late Hon. Adam Ffr- 
 aussoN, and my hon. friend, the member 
 for Erie Division, and Mr. D. A. Macdon- 
 ALD were vice-presidents. A special com- 
 mittee was appointed at that meeting to 
 draft an •.■.ddress to the people of Upper 
 Canada on the political affairs of the pro- 
 vince in support of the resolutioiis then 
 adopted. A draft of the address was sub- 
 mitted to the executive committee. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE — I was not a 
 member of that committee. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— The public meeting 
 was held on the 15th February, IStiU. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CHRISTIE— And when wa.s 
 the address published ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— It was publi.shed 
 in this shape iu February, 1800. Well, one 
 of the provisions contained in that address 
 was this : — " Secure these rights by a writ- 
 ten constitution, ratified by the people, and 
 incapable of alteration except by their for- 
 mal sanction." Hon. gentlemen, I fear the 
 hon. member for Erie Division will hardly be 
 able to justify the course he feels erlledupon 
 to take on this occasion by anything contained 
 in the address or the resolutions of the Toronto 
 convention . The hon. gentleman would never 
 have thought of preparing such a sheme as 
 this to be submitted to the members of such 
 a convention. I^ut think you that had such a 
 scheme been presented they would not have 
 demanded that it should bo left to the 
 people ? Think you, hon. gentlemen, that 
 that scheme would have met the approval 
 

 (if that body in its present shape? I nm 
 .'-uro tiiat my hon. fricuu, warm as he now is 
 in suj)port of the .-ichemo, could hardly have 
 accepted such an issue. I am sure that 
 even the present Government, backed as 
 they arc by a lar-^c majority in both branches 
 of tlio Jjcgislature, and possessing as they 
 do a larj,'e amount of the talent, — I may 
 .say a majority of the talei-t— of rarliament, 
 dure not bring such resolutions down as 
 a (rovernment measure and ask the Legis- 
 lature 1 1 support them iu carrying it through, 
 'fhon my hon. friend thought that t!;" scheme 
 had gone through the length and breadth of 
 the land. Hon. gentlemen, it is quite true 
 that the resolutions hav<j goue through the 
 length and breadth of the land; but where 
 has there been that discussion in Canada 
 t) which resolutions of so much importance 
 arc entitled — except in Lower Canada, 
 where I am told that fifteen counties have 
 repudiated the resolutions when they were 
 sibmittcd to public meetings? Andin Lpper 
 t'anada, where is the single instance of 
 discussion of the facts having taken place 
 except in the city of Toronto, where there 
 wa< little or no discussion, and where it was 
 [iromi.-ed that that lity, like Quebec, should 
 be made the seat of one of the local govern- 
 iiicuts? I understood my hon. friend from 
 Hric l>ivision to take issue on the fict that 
 the delegates to the Convention were not 
 .'^elf-elective, and I he:ird my hon. friend 
 from .Montreal (leu^ ■ Lso. But if you take 
 up a copy of the resolutions and the des- 
 patches accompanying them, you will find 
 that iVcy wero in every sense of the word 
 sclf-eleeted. And if they were not self- 
 elected, .iho d:'puted them to come and do 
 what the have done ? Did the basis on 
 which the (.Joverument was formed authorize 
 them to cuter into this compact ? The basis 
 on which the (lovernment was formed speaks 
 for itself. The measure they promised 
 the people of Upper Canada was simply ." 
 measure to settle the existing difficulties 
 between Upper and Lower Canada. They 
 were to form Upper and Lower Canada into 
 a Icdoration upon .such a basis as would here- 
 after aliov/ the other provinces, if agreeable, 
 and if they could agre;'! as to terms, to also 
 enter the federation. These arc the bases 
 on which the present Government was form- 
 ed, and these arc the bases on which the 
 members of that Government went to the 
 country and asked for the support of their 
 constituents. And to bear me out in this 
 
 assertion, I have only to road the l.iuguagc 
 of His Excellency the Governor General a.s 
 I find it embodied in His Excellency's Speech 
 at the close of the last session of Parliament. 
 You will find it in the latter part of the 
 Speech. His Excellency says : — " The time 
 has arrived when the constitutional question, 
 which has for many years agitat :d this prov- 
 ince, is ripe for settlement." What prov- 
 ince is alluded to in this paragraph ? Most 
 certainly the province of Cinada. " It is 
 my intention," proceeds His Exeelleucy, 
 " during the approaching recess, to endeavor 
 to devi.se a plan for this purpose, which will 
 be laid before Parliament at its next meet- 
 ing." Hon. gentlemen, where is that plan '.' 
 Where is the measure so promised in thu 
 Speech from the Throne. " In releasing you 
 from further aitendaneo," His Kxeelleney 
 goes on to say, •'! would impresa upon you 
 the importance of using the influence which 
 the confidence of your fellow subjects con- 
 I'crs upon you to secure for any scheme which 
 may be prepared with this object a calm and 
 impavtial consideration both iu i'arliamer.t 
 and throughoul the country." Now, what 
 does this mean ? If it means anj "lin", 
 it means this, that the Government p. ^ 
 mised to bring down a measure to this 
 Legislatuioto enable us to confederate Upper 
 and Lower Canada. "Well," hon. gentlemen 
 say, " they have brought down a larger 
 scheme." Yes, but who asked them to bring- 
 down that scheme ? It is said that it makes 
 no difFerence which scheme was laid bei'oro 
 the House ; but I contend that it makes all 
 the difference, for if these resolutions had 
 reference simply to Upper aud Lower Cana- 
 da, they would be susceptible of amend- 
 ment by this House. Iu such a case, 
 hon. gj^ntlemen would not have come 
 down as we now see them shaking their 
 resolutions in the face of the members 
 of the Legislature, and saying, " Here is a 
 treaty which you must accept iu its entirety 
 or not at all." They would not be warning 
 as at our peril to alter a word or eri'se a line 
 on pain of being branded as disunionists or 
 perhaps something worse than that. Had 
 they brought down the resolutions they were 
 pledged to bring down, we would be sitting 
 here calmly and dispassionately, aided by 
 the Go/ernment of the day, framing a 
 measure which would be in very deed for 
 the benefit of the two provinces. But \^hy 
 do the Gjvernii.cnt seek to shelter them- 
 selves so completely behind these resolu- 
 
S9 
 
 lions — rcMolutions •vhiili, as tlii-y ntautl, 
 arc iucapable ci" justificntiuii — roMcliitions 
 wliich shew canecssion after fi>ncc.s.-'ioii to 
 liavc been niatlc to tlio castcru provinces, 
 I'Ut not one of whicli (1 cliaHcune them to 
 ihe proof") was made by the Lower I'ro- 
 viuees to 'he people of Canada '' Then looic 
 at tlie representation nt the Conference. 
 Both parties. I believe, from all the pruvince.s 
 were rejircsontcd, excejit as rc-uvds one sec- 
 tion of Canada. Tlicre was no one repre- 
 scntin<; in the Conference the liberal party 
 in Lower C;:nada. (Hear, hear.) \\'hile 
 ii! the eastern proviiiet'.s the (Javernmcnt 
 of the day were magnanimous cnoufili to ask 
 the CO cpcratiou an<l consideration of the 
 leaders of the Opposition in tbo.-e provinces, 
 the hon. {;entlemen in Canada iijnored 
 entirely the existence of the liberal party 
 in liOwer Canada. (Hear, hear.) My lion. 
 I'licnd from the Eric Division tells us that 
 he is strongly opposed to the details of the 
 shcmc. 
 
 Ho.v. Mil. CIIKLSTIK— I did u..t .say 
 so. If the hon. gentleman will allow me, 1 
 stated iu reference to the elective principl; 
 that [ was opposed to its abrosjation. 
 
 Ilo.\. Mu. CriUME— Ii the hon. .gentle- 
 man feels towards the elective principle as 
 strouj'ly as I do, he will oppose its abro- 
 gation to the last. I have rcascn to ieel 
 strongly in regard to that principle, ueing,liko 
 himself, indebted lor it tc a so it in the Le- 
 gislature ; and I will resist the measure very 
 long before I vote against a principle giving 
 the people power to send me here as their 
 representative. The hon. gentlemen also told 
 us that the whole country is in '' ^'or of 
 Federation. I have no doubt the who coun- 
 try is in favor of federation in itself, but there 
 are many people throughout Canada who are 
 opposed to the present scheme on account o( 
 its details. Then the hon. gentleman declared 
 that the country understood the scheme. 
 Now, what better illustration can me have of 
 the fals'ty of this position than what was 
 witnessed on the floor of this House last 
 night ? We then heard one of the most in- 
 telligent and one of the most ;.ble members 
 of the mercantile community in I'pper Ca- 
 nada, my hon. friend from the Ottawa Division 
 (lion. Mr. SiiEAn) tell us it was only within 
 the last 24 hoys that he had understood the 
 scheme as now submitted to the House. And 
 yet ve arc gravely toKl that the whole country 
 und?rs'.ands it 1 Uo the jicople of the jiro- 
 vince generally know anything in reference 
 
 to the cost of working th-; scheme ? Hon. 
 gentlemen, it has been slated in Vi-rious parts 
 of the country, by leading public men of the 
 country', that the local subsidies propo.scd 
 in the scliemc will ho more than sufficient 
 to carry on the local .'ovcruments of tlie 
 several [irovinces. Hut, hon. gentlemen, we 
 must judge ol the future by tlie experience 
 aft'orded by the past. If you will look at the 
 Public Aceouiiis of I'pper and Lower Canada 
 — take for instance I '])per Canad i in IS'JS, — ■ 
 you will find that the'>xper ilitureon -I50,()uf( 
 of a p pulatiim was ?>iS;),t>0(> ior one year. 
 ]5ut, lion, gentlemen may assort that at that 
 time I'pper Canada hid to bear the the 
 burdens of the militia and pay tlie cost of 
 collectn^ ilie customs, and some other small 
 charges which it is now proposed to throw 
 on the Federal (lovernmont. Hut what were 
 the charges of ilie miluia for that year ':* Tiic 
 insignificant sum of, ItU!). l!ts. Hid. Then 
 there was received from foes a'ld eommission 
 t.'^l" 1'")s., thus making the total cost of the 
 militia to '.'pper Canada no more than 
 XoolJ. Is. llAd. Then as to customs. Why, 
 honorable gentlemen, the wlv Ic cost ol" 
 collecting tlio customs revenue in Upper 
 Canada, during the year IS.'JS^ amounted 
 to 4;_',7!I2. 14s. 2d. — just about one half 
 the cost, lia.dly one hall' the cost — ol 
 collecting the jiresent duties at the port 
 of Tor'?!it/i. Then if you come do"wu to 
 Lower Canada you will find that at the time 
 of the union you had a population of ti50,0'jO 
 souls, and that the expense of governing the 
 people was .^o7-"J,3l!^. And f venture to 
 say that no people in the world were ever 
 more cheaply governed than were the pcojdc 
 of Lower Canada before the union. (Hear, 
 hear.) But if you can govern them after the 
 union just as cheaply per head as bctore, what 
 do you find ? You will reriiiire .SUSOiUOO to 
 carry on the government of the country, 
 independent of paying the interest upon the 
 large portion of debt saddled upon you. In 
 Upper Canada, we have been told that we 
 really shall not know what to do with the 
 large amount of money about to be lavi.'hed 
 on the Local Legislature. (Laughter.) 
 
 Hon, Mu. 31cCllEA— Who said that— 
 that we would have more money thau wo 
 know what to do with '/ 
 
 Ho.v. Mr. CUKKIE— You must have 
 read it in the speeches made in the other 
 House, and r rticularly in the speeches of 
 the Hon. ^.l. Buown. Well, if we can 
 govern the people of Upper Canada as cheap. 
 
Sft 
 
 w 
 
 govern thu p.-ople of Upper CHriinIa m chcuj. 
 Ij utlcr till' union iia bt-fbrr, it will d-i 
 »-M70,UUU or Sl.O'-I.OOli more ll.^in ilie 
 aiuount ol till' U,vA si.L.-idj | mn .-urc n>» 
 bon. gtutliDiau will believe tliiit wi are pinp 
 to be more saving of the pMblio Diuiuy in 
 the luture thi.n wc were in tlioi^t' (arly (layi 
 of our hi.-tory. lion i;cnfkii)cn, it is said 
 thai tlio people oi'tlii' country Imve had fiidnc 
 rtsolutious lipfoic tlicuj, tliat they perfectly 
 understand them, and that tliey are pre- 
 pared to pais a dispassionate judj^'nicnt in 
 the matter. It ill becomes the members of 
 the (Jovcrn;iieDt to make such a statement. 
 Why, what lias been witne.s.scd on the floor 
 of this House i* A simple question was put 
 to the Hon. Commissioner ot Crown Lauds 
 as to the manner in which the members ol 
 the Legislative Councils of the various pro- 
 vinces were to be appointed. The Hon. 
 Commissioner informed us that the aj poiut- 
 ment was to be made by local goverumeuts, 
 and he was confirmed in that view by the 
 hon. and gallant Premier, who liad the 
 dignity conferred upon him of presiding over 
 the Conference of delegates held in this city. 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— I do not think 
 that my hon. colleague said anything on the 
 subject. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— I understood him 
 to confirm the statement of the Hon. Com- 
 missioner of Crown Lands. But at all 
 events, he heard the statement and did not 
 object to it. But what did you find ? After 
 the absurdity of that position was pointed 
 out, my hon. Iriend, the Commi-'^ioner of 
 Crown Lands, asks a day to give an answer 
 to the question, and he comes down next 
 day and gives a totally different reply. A 
 few days later, the question of the export 
 duty on the mineral* of Nova Scotia came 
 under consideration, and I understood the 
 Hon. Commissioner of Crown Lauds as 
 .saying that in his opinion the coals and 
 minerals exported to foreign countries would 
 be liable to duty. But according to the 
 explanations given by the hon. gentleman 
 afterwards, 1 understand that the export 
 duty will apply to all coals and minerals 
 exported from Nova Scotia. My hon. friend 
 went on to explain the moaning of this 
 export duty. And what is his explanation i* 
 He tells Ub that it is nothing more than a 
 royalty. The export duty is impc "d simply 
 upon the coals which leave the country. In 
 Nova JScotia they now impose a royalty, and 
 that royalty they intend to change for an 
 
 oiporl <luiy. and the difference in their 
 l«\orwill bo thi-.- that on the < oals they 
 ••oiisuifif theui-elt. i liieio will be no duty, 
 but on tie coals tb-y jioud to Cunadu tiiere 
 will be this barrier of an e.xporf duty. 
 
 Hn\ Mr. UO.sJ.S— My l,„n. fVieud will 
 see tJis. that liail ii".l the'Croun lands in the 
 dillercht e iloni. ■( been placed in the hands 
 of the (iineriil (Jovi rnmeiit, the (Jen ral 
 • iovirnnient would have received all the 
 proceeds therefrom. But those have been 
 gi"en to the local governments, and as in 
 I'jiper Canada we will ha\c timber dues, so 
 in Nova .'^eoiia thoy are entitled to a revenue 
 from their coals. 
 
 H'iN. Mu. < I JiRlK — Any one not ac- 
 quanted with the su'.ijcct would naturally 
 fancy from the langua-e of my hon. friend 
 that under Federation we are to have some- 
 thing wliieh we did net possess before. But 
 the Crown lands are the property of C'.par 
 ai r Lower Canada now, and we are entitled 
 to le revenue from tlicm. 
 
 tio.N. Mu. R()j;.S— And so is N'>tu Scotia 
 ent'tled to a revenue from their coal. 
 
 Ho.N. Mu. CIRRIK -But you give ihem 
 a privilege not accorded in 'he other pro- 
 vinces of imposing export duties. lion, 
 gentlemen, 1 would now desire to allude to 
 another matter which 1 think the people do 
 not thoroughly under.-tand, and that is the 
 apportionment of the publie debt. I stated 
 before and 1 again assert that revenue is the 
 only true basis on which the people should 
 gi into Coiile leration as regards their debt; 
 aid 1 think my )iou. Iriend fVoui the 
 Saugeen division (Hon. Mr. .Maci'IIERSo.n) 
 saw the matter in the same light. 
 
 Hon. Mu M.ACPHKUSON— Not in this 
 case, because wj have nit the revenue to 
 base it upon. 
 
 Ho.v. Mr. CrRRlE— Why h.ivo we not 
 the revenue to base it upon 'f Hon. tjmtle- 
 luen, the Trade Pu-turiis of Nova Scotia, 
 New Brunswick, and Priuce Edward Island, 
 arc in the Library below, and twenty lour 
 hours' work of n competent aceou'itaut wou d 
 shew what eaeli province Would eonlriiiuto 
 to the geucral revenue from her trade under 
 our present tariff. 
 
 no.N. Mr. CA.wl'BELI But does not 
 
 the hon. gentleman sec th.it when the turifl's 
 are usjimiiated, they will not bring in the 
 future what iliev have brought in the past ' 
 Hon. Mr. CL WRIE—This 1 cansee,ih,.f 
 you are giving to the Lower I'ruvinees pri- 
 vileges which we do not enjoy. Hon. t;eu- 
 
94 
 
 llcmen ppcak of fho imports from the Mari- 
 time rruviiiccH. IJut take the iiiipurl of 
 Cdalf* fri'in Nuvn Sc .itia, am. we liii'l tluif in 
 iHii.'i, iif wliili- valuf auutuiii'-d lo *ftM,"00. 
 Thcu tliey teftr to the lij-li Iraile. Uut wliy 
 ne«U W« y.» llure t-.r IJ-li. wluii in our own 
 waters we cud liavi for tlu- niteliiiif: u"* lino 
 finh iis the world produee.- { iJut C'nuleilera- 
 tinn will ^,'ive us no privileges over the 
 fisheries wiucii w do not al piesfiit enjoj. 
 Canailiun fi^lieniion can as well j.m|. and hare 
 as niueii the rif;ht to j."i, and tish in the 
 waters below b.tore as alter Conledrntion. 
 We will continue to j;o ilore if we desire it, 
 not b(eau>e w<' are members of the Cont- ! •- 
 racy, but beeaU'C we arc l^riti^h subjects. 
 But 1 was fioiuj; to sp.ak of tli;' trade of 
 these couutiies. We derive now little or no 
 duty from the trade of ihe Jiowcr I'r.vinees, 
 at the SI uie time much o( the revonups of 
 the Lower Provinces is derived from eX|'orts 
 from those provinos to each other, nil of 
 which will be lost to the General Oovornment, 
 as the (,'onfederation will only be entitled to 
 collect duties in <;.!ods imported Irom foreifrn 
 countries. We are told, too, thai our tariff i- 
 to be greatly reduced u:ider Confederation. 
 I am Borry to hear that statement, because 
 it is impossible that it can b-. correct, and 
 there is loo much rmson to tear that it was 
 done with a view of inliui'neing leiiislation 
 elsewhere, by holdins; out the hope in New- 
 foundland and in th^- other provinces that 
 if they joined us, the tariif woul' b^ less 
 burdensome than it is at present. IJut il 
 tie tariff is reduced, the people of Canada 
 may rest assured that they will have 
 g4,UUU,0li0 or S-J.UUU.UUd to raise in some 
 other Wiiy ; so that if you take it off the 
 tariff, you must put it on the laiid. I wish 
 now, Ijowever, to sjieak of the unfair appor- 
 tionment of the debt. I have ahvuy.s la .en 
 the ground that revmue is the true guatre 
 by which you can unasure a nation's abi- 
 lity to pay debt. Well, taking the tables of 
 the Finance iMiuister, we tiud that New 
 IJiuuswick. with a revenue uf 5Ji,UUi'.'0O, 
 goes into the CoufederiiUoii with a di ht of 
 l87,OUU,UUU, while Canada, with :i revenue of 
 8ll,t)U(J,v.'UiJ, is only cntitred to go into the 
 Confederation with a debt of 6tj:i,rjU0,i)0U. 
 Is this iair? — is it right ?— is it honest? 
 Taking tne revenue as tin: basis of ability 
 to pay — and it is ihe only tiue basis — and 
 instead of Cauaua going into the I on- 
 federatiou with a debt only ¥C-',5'A»,UUU^ 
 she would be entitled to co in with a deb 
 
 of 8«0,000,000, or more than her present 
 indebtcdnoBi. Then it is said that the 
 people understand the whole seheme, and 
 that tl '7 arc perfectly satisticd with it. If 
 that were s'» we should have jietitions coming 
 down. Hut I h:ive yet t > learn thi.t wh n 
 the people, espeei;illy of I'pp. r Canada, 
 understand the ^heme and how it i ' going 
 to .vork. that they will be at all s;.;! lied with 
 it. Take the little Island jt I'riiiee Kdward, 
 with its population of 80,857 souls, or a less 
 population than a single constituency repre- 
 sented in thf other branch of the Legis- 
 lature, and ^e find it gettiiig 8K'>:'.72S, 
 while it is relieved of a debt of ?24tl,ti^;l. 
 
 Ilo.v. Mr. CAMPMELL - And what 
 does it contrib"te ? 
 
 Ho.N. Mb. CURUIK— ^t simply contri- 
 butes custom and excise duties by the 
 operation id" the same tariff and under the 
 same law as the people of Canada. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPHKLL — But how 
 much does it contribute ? 
 
 Hon. .Mr. CURRIK — 1 tiud the whole 
 revenue of the island set down at ?200,OU0. 
 But, hon. ftntlemen, pray do not run away 
 with the idea that all thi.s c uus to the t'on- 
 federato Government. Al' tiiat comes to the 
 Confederate Governmen are simply the 
 duties from excise and customs on goods im- 
 ported from ioreign cour'.tries. 
 
 iloN. Mit. CAMPBELL — Wh.wJ is the 
 whole iimount of their revenue, except 
 ?*3l,0ii0. 
 
 H(.N. Mr. ("URRIE— Suiely my hon. 
 I'riend does not wish to get up and argue 
 that the people of this little island — a frugal 
 and industrious peo,de - contribute more to 
 the revenue per head than the people of 
 Upper Canada? Well, let U" proceed now to 
 Newfoundland, and what do we find ? That 
 with a populati n of Vl'lfiW .miuIs — less 
 than the population of Huron, Bruce and 
 Grey — less, in fact, than the eonstittency 
 r presented by my hon. friend, the nn mbcr 
 for .Saugien— they get S.iO'J.OOU a year for all 
 time, and are lelnved of a debt of S94(>,0U0. 
 
 Ho.N. Mu. CAMPBELL— And what do 
 they contribute ? 
 
 Hon. Mu. CURRIK— Simply tne revenue 
 from customs iind excise, and uothiui more. 
 
 Hon .Mk. CAMPBELL— And what does 
 that !im<aint to ? 
 
 Hon. .Mit. CURRIE— I am aware that— 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— They will con- 
 tribute, under the pre-.cnt tariff, 8479,000 per 
 aoDum. 
 
35 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— My hon. friend 
 sunly tlcH's not intend t. say thnt Nowfuund- 
 land h.'iH no other »uurcf ot revenue ihan 
 fu.xtonis und exe'sf . 
 
 I'...\. M '. CA.MPHKLL— No other; mid 
 timt \x the r-iison whv thev t:et <1.')0.0(M». 
 
 Hon Mh. CI'llUIl-:— Newfnnndhind i< 
 to hav» •'?i"M;,nii'» 11 year, not fur this year 
 only, but tor all time to eoiue. Shu i^et^ a» 
 well no ci.ut.s per head for ail tine (o eooie. 
 Then ><ho ^ct^i al.-o, what I aui iture tlic 
 ('iinmis>ioner of Crown Land.s can hanlly 
 justify, that i^t a boms of 8 1 '5.'), i •<•(.• for 
 all time to (oine ; and th^s, if cdpitalLn/, 
 amounts tc ?3,UII0.0IIU--and all fhi^ that 
 she may Come into the Cuii federation. 
 And why does .she receive so larpo a hum ? 
 My hon. friend tells uh that .she jjcts it in 
 eoii.sideri tion of the valuable cmwn land- 
 and iiiii!eraU which she Murreiider.s to the 
 (icniral (joveriiment. Hut we have yet to 
 learn as a matter of fact that u ton of coals 
 ha.s ever been raised in the island. Aiid 
 what other minerals have thty ? We know of 
 none. ":' ".'irCrown lands, too. are of no value, 
 as i.« proved by their not Laving yielded 
 anything at all for many years pa.st. Then 
 why should wc jjivo them 8:!,0(IO,0(H», or 
 J<l(i."),i 1(1(1 per year for worthless lands'/ [ 
 will not say. however, that they are aU"(^ethcr 
 worthless ; l)Ut ^ know this, that 1. years 
 past a statute has been in I'o e, givini; the 
 lands free of charj,'e to anybody who will 
 •ro and settle on tluni for five years. And 
 these are the valuable lands tor which we 
 arc to pay an equivalent of 8;),U00,U0t.. ]Jut 
 uiy hon. friend the Commissioner of ('rown 
 Lands, perhaps, when he addresses the House, 
 will tell us these Crown lands and minerals. 
 wh.i.\ r thi'ir v.ilue to Xcwlbundlund, are 
 wi. th .-:i,00(i,(lO:> to the Confederation, and 
 will ..rgue asthatthcyirivc up these lands and 
 minerals, and have no loci source of reve- 
 nue, it is necessary, they should receive this 
 subsidy in return. Hut why have they no 
 local source of revenue 'f Why not adopt the 
 same II, cans to laise revenue in Newfound- 
 land that we adopt here ? \Vhy should wo 
 he called upon to contribute from the public 
 chest ??lGo,(iUO for a purpose that wc in 
 Canada tax ourselves for ? Hon. gentlemen, 
 I stated that the country was taken by sur- 
 prise in regard to th<i manner in which this 
 uie isure was brought down to tiie House ; 
 and I think I have good reason for making 
 -hat statetaent. Before ve came here we had 
 
 very little explanation ••f the financial part 
 of the ^ehcuic ; and that i-i a most importtnt 
 part I am not one of those who, while fa- 
 roruble to ( 'oiifiMlL'ratiou as u principle, would 
 put u few laiiidi'i! 1 tb <u>und dolliiis in the 
 sca'e against it. Hu niy grminils against the 
 
 -ehenie are tinsi tliiit if it is eonin eiiecd 
 
 upon a basis wliieh is unjust to one portion 
 uf the community, it will be based upon a 
 fu><iu foundation, und the tenement thus 
 proposed to be ererted will not withstand 
 the breath td' pnljlie opinion. We bad 
 reason to supiiose th:it vvhen we cme here 
 flic m>'iisure promised at the .-lose of the 
 last session would be sulimitte<l ; but instead 
 of that wc have a very different measure 
 altogethi r. Hut sup|lo^iug this Addresi* 
 jiiis.scs — suppo-ing these resolutions are 
 earrirrd, an.l the other colonies do not 
 concur in the sauK! AMress as ourselves, 
 what is to be the cousci(Uence ? As i 
 understand ii, the consent of all the pro- 
 vinces must be had, and if they do not 
 ciincur, the scheme fiills to the ground. 
 What we ought to h:'.ve had in Canada was 
 ' tlic promised tm asure to put an end to the 
 I sactional dillieulties between Upper and 
 ' Lower Canada. Hut instead of uit, wc are 
 placed in const fjuence of the Queb>c Con- 
 ; ference im this jiusitioii — a sch'^nie '" brougtit 
 I down which " declared to be in tlie nature 
 of a treaty, aid we are told that we are to 
 h;ive no voice in its alteration. No matter 
 what the details my be — our discussion of 
 them is to be a mere farce. I-Iveu the 
 reasonable delay I am now asking for will, 
 f fear, be opposed by the Government of 
 the day. Hon. gentlemen, in order to shew 
 the nesscssity which exist.s for the measure 
 being equitable and just to all classi-s cl the 
 : people and all sections of tlx; country about 
 to be atl'eeted by it, I will read the remarks 
 I of a distinguished statesman — one of the 
 '• ablest men, perhaps, that Canada can claim. 
 \ This is his laugunge : — 
 
 I No meaauro could possibly nie>t the approval 
 of the people of Canada which eontained within 
 
 ; it tho L'crms of inju.stice to any. and if, in the 
 iiu'asuic which was now bet'ore the |)Cople of 
 
 '. Canada, then) was nnythin^' which liore on its 
 
 I race injn.stiee, it would operate greatly against the 
 success of the mensure itself. 
 
 i These were the views of the Minister o' 
 
 riiumcc as expressed by him only a few 
 
 1 months ago, and it is because I feel that 
 
 i there a-e ;>art8 of the scheme which will do 
 
36 
 
 
 rv-.:^:. 
 
 
 
 gross and wanton iujustice to portioQi of 
 the proposed Confederation, tliat I foe! it to 
 be my duty to opjios" it. [t may bf said 
 that it is i;ot proper tor ihis braueh of tl.o 
 Legislature to delay the mcM.-iire, Imt T 
 (]uite concur, on tliit^ p^ nt. iti the view* <<i^ 
 the Hon. gentleman wl'o repre.senl> one of 
 the largest and most important constitui neics 
 in Canada ClJoti. Mr. .M.\<i'iit u.so.n), wlioii 
 he said — 
 
 Aithoueh the LeTislative <'outieil U iirvcliuiiil 
 by this constitutii) 1 fioin ir'v/\t\ii\\u'^ money voti s 
 or makinjr monev .iiiproiiriniinii.s of aiy kind. 
 the\ have it neverthf>l<'?s in the ir [M.wcr zealously 
 to giinr;! your interr.st.^. protecting' ihein a/ains^t 
 hasty and ill considered leL'ishition. an') previ nt- 
 itij; improper and extrava;,'ant apprupiialions of 
 the public f-mds. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACrHEUSON — I approve 
 of all that 
 
 Hon. Mr CURRIE— I fully cmcur in 
 all the hon. member from Saugeen stated in 
 is address to liis constituents, withrcferenee 
 to this subject, and I hope the hon. gentle- 
 man will now. \vhen the opportunity is offered 
 him, act up to the proussious he made, and 
 I feel confident he will do so. Now, hon. 
 gentlemen, what have we here before us ? 
 '^e have a scheme which is calculated to do 
 manifest and untold injustice to that section 
 01 the province which the hon gentleman 
 has the honor to represent. We have a 
 scheme pledging us to construct the Inter- 
 colonial Railway without our knowing whe- 
 ther it is to cost fifteen, twenty or thirty 
 millions of dollars. The or 'y estimate is that 
 alluded to by the hon. member from Toronto 
 who stated that Mr Brypges was propan'ii 
 to build it for seventeen and a half millions 
 of dollars. 
 
 H-N Mr. MACPIIP:RS0-\— This House 
 has nothing to do with money inatti.TS 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURKIK — If my hon. friend 
 entertains that opinion, he will very soon 
 leaTi a very different and importu'it b-.-oti 
 respecting the privileges of this Hous(.'. It 
 is our duty as honest legislators to protect 
 the country from the baneful efft eta of hasty 
 and ill-considered logislatiim. Well, is not 
 this hasty legislation that was now proposed 
 to be transacted by the Government of the 
 day ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. MA(U»fIKRSO.V. -I do not 
 regard it so, and I tell you why. .My con- 
 stituents have considercu the question and 
 are fully satisfied that the proposed legisla- 
 tioQ should take place 
 
 Hon. Mr. CURRIE— It has been said by 
 hon. gentlemen that the whole scheme con- 
 sists of concessions. T would ask what con- 
 cessions had been made to Cana la ? What 
 concession has been made to the views of the 
 people of Tpper " -f* " The people will 
 understand wh; .t i< m .t everything was 
 conceded on the ;i.i'-; ■■ Canada, and compara- 
 tively nothing on 1) part ii; the Lower Pro- 
 vinces, when they know that the little colony 
 of Prince Edward Islaml, with its eighty 
 thousand jieople. has oS much to say in the 
 Conference as Lii>['er '!anada with its million 
 and a half, and as Lower Canada with its 
 million and a i|uarter, of jieople. (Ilea.-, 
 hear.) When we conceded to them that 
 point, the series of concessions on the part 
 of Canada began. Then we conceded to them 
 the right of depriving us of an elective 
 Legislative Council. (Hear, hear.) Who 
 challenges this statement 'f I defy any hon 
 gentlemen to say that it was not at the dic- 
 tation of the eastern provinces, that the 
 character of the Legislative Council was 
 changed. In order to settle this { oint. it is 
 only necessary to refiT hon. gentlemen to 
 what the Hoti. Minister of Finance stated in 
 his celebratt.'d Sherbrooke speech with refer- 
 ence to it. That Was concession number 
 two. Then look at the proposed Cjustit ition. 
 The Lower Provinces had only a population 
 of 7UO,nOO of people. One would think 
 tliey would be satisfied with the same rep-e- 
 seiitation in the Legislative ' onncil that 
 Upper Canaoa wich double the number of 
 people should have, and that Lower t anada 
 with nearly double the population should 
 lie given Hut instead of being satisfied 
 with 24, they must have 2S members. 'I'here 
 are 'hri'e distinct and most important (!on- 
 cessions on the part of Canada to the ptople 
 of the eastern provinces. And then we go 
 into the Federation with a debt of only 
 SG2.500,Ul»0, instead of wi(h 882,5011,000 
 as we were entitled to. I'heu we are to 
 saddle ourselves with a burden of Sl.T.OO",- 
 000. anil give them a lunus for coming in, 
 in the shape of an annual payment for local 
 purposes, which we defray in Upper Canada 
 by direct taxation. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MctJllKA — That i.s because 
 they are to help to p:iy our debt. 
 
 Hon. .Mr. CURRIK— My honorable friend 
 from the Western Division says, they have 
 to hulp to pay our debt ; truH they have ti) 
 help to p.ty the debts ol the Confederation, 
 but that is no reason why they should reeoive 
 
money from us to pay their loca' expenses. 
 Then look at the absurdity of giving each 
 province so much per head on its population 
 t'l.r the expenses of the local governments. 
 Every on. knows that the population of the 
 Lower Provinces will not increase nearly so 
 fast as that of this province. We will there- 
 tor have to pay a greiiter proportion of this 
 amount through the increase of our popula- 
 tion than we can receive under the propo.sed 
 arrangement. This is eoucossion uuuiber 
 four. The next concession is to New Bruns- 
 wick. We are to give New Brunswick a 
 bonus of $030,000 in addition to building 
 the Intercolonial Railway through a long sec- 
 tion of the couutry — leading the people to 
 believe that the road is to pass through 
 marly every town in the province. Then 
 Nova Scotia gets the right to impose an 
 export duty on it? coals and other minerals 
 coming into Upper Canada, or going else- 
 where. Then NewfoundlaiiJ, as I have said 
 before, is to have upw.'ird of three millions 
 of dollars, if you capitalize the annual gift, as 
 an iiiduceuient to come in a.id join us. Then, 
 hoii. gentlemen, my hon. friend from Port 
 Hope spoke of the common schools of Canada, 
 ol about one million and ([Uartcr of dollars 
 that is to be abolished by a stroke o the 
 pen— that i- another coiiee.ssiun, I suppose, 
 made to the people of tiic eastern provin- 
 ces. What do we got for all these conces- 
 sions '{ Do we get anything that we are not 
 entitled to as a matter of right. We get 17 
 additional members of the Lower House 
 tor Upper Canada, but that is nothing 
 more than wc are entitled to, at the 
 same time we get 47 added from the 
 east. Wo are told that the leasun for 
 having so largo a number of members is to 
 avoid narrow majorities. If everything 
 works well, therefore, under the new consti 
 tution, we are told we will always have a 
 strong Government, somcwliat similar to 
 that with which we are now blessed. Hon. 
 gentlemen say, that this question is perl'ectly 
 understood by the people of Canada, and 
 that they are satisfied with the arrangement ; 
 then what danirer, 1 would ask, can there 
 be in allowing the people a few months to 
 consider the matter stih more fully. In my 
 opinion, it is far better to take the thing up 
 deliberately and proceed ciutiuusly with it, 
 than to attempt to force, so hurriedly, a 
 measure upon the people that they will feel 
 hereafter, if ih.y do not i.ow, that you are 
 doing them a very great injustice. (Hear, 
 
 hear.) It is most extraordinary, the grounds 
 on which these resolutions are supported 
 by different classes of people. Some hon. 
 gentlemen support them on the ground that 
 the Confederation is to build up an inde- 
 pendent nationality in this pait of the 
 world. Others, on the ground that it is 
 going to cement us more closely as colonies. 
 And a third party uphold the resolutions on 
 the ground that the injustice of the thing 
 will disgust the peopl'.; and float <jur couutry 
 over to the American Republic. I feel, my- 
 self, that unless the people have due me to 
 consider th<' matter, and are not driven into 
 it against their will, these resolut'ons will 
 amount to nothing more than so many 
 withes to tie the provinces together until we 
 all drift like a raft into the American Con- 
 federation. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) 
 
 Friday, Fehruury 17, 1865. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR--Thc Hon Com- 
 missioner of Crown Lands is right in sup- 
 posing that I am opposed to Federation I 
 am opposed to it, and particularly on the 
 basis agreed upon at the (Quebec Convention. 
 I do not say that I would be oppo.icd to a 
 legislative union on fair and equal terms ; 
 but I am decidedly opposed to Federation 
 on the terms now before the llou.e. My 
 hon. friend has said that in all unions there 
 must be forbearance; but in this Federation 
 scheme it appears to me the forbeiiri.nce has 
 been all on one side. The forbearance has 
 not been mutual. When parties enter into 
 a partnership, there ought to be forbearance 
 on the part of each, and mutual concessions 
 But in this case the concessions as well as 
 the forbearance have been all on the side of 
 Canada. My hon. friend, with all his elo- 
 qr nee and ability, has not answered a single 
 objection raised by my hon. friend from 
 Niagara ^Hon. .Mr. CimitlE). He his found 
 it convenient to pass them all over for the 
 simple reason thut he found them u lanswer- 
 able. My hon. friend says : — " Was not the 
 French language restored to Lower (Canada, 
 and was not this a change in the constitution?" 
 Hon. gentlemen, it was certainly restored, 
 and by the conservative administration of that 
 day, and, as my hon. friend opposite (Hon. 
 Mr. Bour.TON) has said, unanimously. There 
 was no opposition, for it was oontidered a 
 
^H 
 
 ^1 
 
 S8 
 
 i-i 
 
 1! 
 
 right to which our French Canadian fellow- 
 subjceta were I'uUy cntitleJ. I'ut is tho 
 restoration of tiie Froiieh iaii>;u;ijre to bt> 
 compared with the n^^olution now proposed 
 — with tho great constitutional chanj^e 
 which is intended to affect, not only our- 
 selves, but our children aud our children's 
 childnn for all time to come i* Is a change 
 like this to bo compared with the restoration 
 of the French language 'f l.'ertainly nol. It 
 seems to me to be the most extraordinary 
 comparison I ever heard of Then my 
 hon. friend has referred to the chiinge in 
 the constitution of the liegislative Council. 
 But was not that question over and .ver 
 aeain bef ire the peojjle ? Did not the people 
 at the hustings frequently pronounce tu 
 opinion upon that change ? Undoubtejiy 
 they did, and it being understood that the 
 people were in favor of it, the change was 
 brought about. My hon. friend says that in 
 the Conference they were surrounded with 
 diflBcultics. Xo doubt they were. An<l why ? 
 Because they allowed for Prince Edward 
 Island and Newfoundland as many delegates 
 as they did for Canada. No doubt they were 
 surrounded with difficulties. No doubt they 
 were overwhelmed by the demands of these 
 geutleuien. The hon. gmtleman says that 
 Confederation is necessary to strengthen the 
 defences o! the country. In what way' Cun 
 any hon. g.ntleman tell me in what way ? 
 I have not heard one word to prove, to luy 
 satisfaction, how the det'euccs of the country 
 are to he engt lencd by Federation, unless 
 indeed it ho by planing the whole of the 
 provinces umler one head. Why, hon. gen- 
 tlemen, did I not shew here the other day 
 wh.it was the feeling of the Lower Frovinees 
 in regard to the deictic s of the country '' 
 At a time when our Farliamrnt were propos- 
 ing to pass an act which would entail the 
 expenditure of millions on the defences of 
 the country, what was being done in the 
 Lower Provinces '/ \Vi the financial secre- 
 tary of one of the proviuees came down with 
 a proposed grant of §J(ViOO, an I ho was 
 obliged to apologize to the Ho".se that the 
 sum was so large ! And the present Premier 
 of Nova iScotia — a province secon i in impor- 
 tance in British North America — prijposed 
 to strike off §1 .',OiKl. and leave the appro- 
 priation at .■SS,MUO. , This was j.roposed by a 
 province uctf in imi)ortaneo to our own, aud 
 at the time ol the TVf/f^aiiair, when there was 
 un appearance of danger much greater than at 
 present. And what did New Brunswick do ? 
 
 Appropriate 815,000. Tho people that did 
 all this arc tlie people to whom we arc to 
 ally ourselves that \ye may be strengthened 
 in our etr.H-ts for th«' d' fence of the country ! 
 !».> hon. u'cntlemen believe that an alliance 
 with jirovin'.es wlios<! leadinirmen hold such 
 views as these would add to <>iir strength ? 
 Certainly not. .^ly hon. friend the Com- 
 missionrr of Crown Latids has also said that 
 !t5 out of evt'iy 100 of the people of I'ppcr 
 Canada are in lavor of Fuderation My hon. 
 friend is aistaken. T oneo had the honor of 
 representing a portion of his eonsiituents, 
 and I Would inform my hon. friend that I 
 know as much of the feeling, not simply of 
 thi! people o!' Upper Canada, speaking of 
 ihcm gi'iierally, but id' his constituents, a.s 
 he dors : and this 1 would >:iy that were my 
 hon. friend to go before his i-oiistitnent- and 
 tell them that in order to get Federation, 
 Upper Canada is t.. pay two-thirds of tho 
 co.>t of the Intercolonial Railway, and two- 
 tliir IS of the cost of mainUnance ot the road 
 for all time to tome, and tha' the roads of 
 the Lower Provinces are to lie made Covern- 
 luent roads, and to be kept uj) in luturo at 
 the expense of Feder il Covi rnmeiit. and that 
 L'pper I'anada will have tW'i-thirds of the 
 burden to liear, I will venture to say that 
 my hoii. frien 1 woald find himself wronj; in 
 his estimate of being able to satisfy 9.) out of 
 every llHj of his constituent-'. 
 
 Hon. Mk. CAMPBELL— T^ 11 them of 
 all the cireumstanees, and I would be able 
 to satisfy theui. 
 
 Hon. Mn. .SEYMOl'll— My hon. friend 
 is greatly mistaken, if my hon. fiiend is to 
 b' one of the life members uudi r the Feder- 
 ation, ho Would Mot re(juire so o nch to satisfy 
 them. 
 
 Hon. Mil C \MPI5ELL— .My hon. friend 
 is altogether too fast. 1 do not look forward 
 to any such thing. 
 
 Hu.v. Ar. SEV.MOCIl— My hon Iriend 
 has the power in his hands ; but if he does 
 not di'sirethe honor, of course he can avoid 
 itabting thrust ii|ion him. But my hon friend 
 Could not for n moment go before his con- 
 stituents — and he represents a constituency 
 winch for intedig.'ucc is second to none in 
 Upper Canada — and tell them that they are 
 to contribute to the revenue of the Contede- 
 ration in proportion to their import duties — 
 that they arc to contribute according to 
 their wealth — and that they are only to 
 receive back in proportion to their popul'i- 
 Lion — that largely as they contribute, the 
 
39 
 
 return will only bo the same as to tlio Cslicr- 
 nn->n an'l lumlcrer.s who form the flouting 
 population of the l.owtr Provinces, and cany 
 so largo a majority as he has nanni' with 
 hiiu. A doctrine .such as this is any tliinirbut 
 conservatives. I wo ikl submit to any thing 
 rather than vote f('r such a scheme. Were 
 1 to support it in its present shape 1 should 
 consider mys"lf as betraying the witness of 
 my country. Hon. gentleman are of course 
 entitled tn their own opinions in this matter; 
 but these are mine, and I .shall continue to 
 maintain and uphold them. I assert that the 
 amendment of my hon. friend for delay is a 
 just and rcasonablo one, and I cannot see 
 how it can jiossibly be objected to in a 
 matter of thi^" imporfanee, where tho dearest 
 interests of the whole country are at stake, 
 and where vre arc legislating not for ourselves 
 alone but lor future generations. Such 
 being the importance of the measure, I 
 cannot conceive how hon. gentlemen can 
 vote against so reasonable a proposition. 
 (He.ar, hear.) 
 
 UoN. Mr. FEIKJUSSON BLAIR — 1 
 seek for information from the Hon. Commis- 
 sioner of Crown Lands, as to tho scheme 
 respecting tho local legislatures. Did I 
 understand my hon. friend to say that it 
 would not be submitted to the present 
 Par! iinient '' 
 
 Hon. Mn. CAMl^BELL— It in so in- 
 tended. 
 
 Hon. Mr. FERGUSSOX BLAIR — I 
 also understood my hon. friend to say that 
 betore the House pronounced upon the 
 general scheme of Federation, it would not 
 be proper to submit the sheme for th local 
 legislatures. I cannot see th: fo.ee of 
 that. But still I will not raise that as an 
 objection to proceeding with the present 
 scheme. 
 
 Hon. Mr CAMPBELL— Perhaps my 
 hon. friend from Brock in right in the view 
 he takes. But it was throught by the 
 Government th.it it would be premature to 
 bring in the .sheme for the local govern- 
 meufs until it was seen whether Parliament 
 was in favor of these resolutions. 
 
 Hon. Mr. FEllGUSSON BLAIR— But 
 many members of this House, betore making 
 of their minds as to how they ought to 7oto 
 on tho resolutions, would like to be infor ned 
 aa to the nature of the local scheme, which 
 ia to have such an important bearing on the 
 question at issue. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The Parliament 
 
 of the country will ha.e the fullest opportu- 
 nity (if pronouncint; upon it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. SIM I'SON— When ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. (^\MPBELL— After these 
 resolutions have been passed. We thought 
 it >7a9 unnecessary for us to give our atten- 
 tion to the li cal constitutions for Cpper and 
 Lower Canada until wo had a.scertained 
 whetiier Parliament vaxa in favor of Federal 
 tion. That ascertained, we shall feel it our 
 duty to give our minds to the ])reparation of 
 tho scheme for the constitutions of the two 
 provinces ; and these constitutions will be 
 laid before Parliament. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSS— I do not know what 
 the views of tho Government may be upon 
 this point, but it seems to me that it would 
 have been an estraordinary proceeding had 
 they brought down at this juncture the 
 proposed constitutions f)r Upper and Lower 
 Cai^ada. There may be a great difference 
 of opinion arise as to the constitutions 
 proper to be proposed lor these provinces ; 
 and it is quite possible that these aifferences 
 may occasion the withdrawal of some 
 members of the Government. (C.'ies of 
 " hear, heir.") Hon. gentlemen cry " hear, 
 h?ar." But I say that such may possibly be 
 the casw. And it would be absurd and 
 impolitic for the Governiuent to throw the 
 country in a state of confusion as regards 
 the sheme lor the local legislatures if they 
 failed in carrying the lesolutions here sub- 
 mitted. Hon. gentlemen will see that tboy 
 would be unworthy of the position they hold 
 were they to do so. I am not sure whether 
 I understood my hon. friend to say that the 
 scheme for the local legislatures would be 
 brought down on the passing of these reso- 
 lutions. I hope ttiat I misunderstood him> 
 because I think wc should wait the result of 
 the action of the Lower Provinces. We 
 should see if Federation succeeds there, 
 inasmuch as in case ol its failure in the 
 Lower Provinces, even if wo adopt the reso- 
 lutions here, the arraugemc ." would not go 
 into I "^ect, and we would bo placing the 
 country in a state of turmoil and confu.-ion 
 in discussing measures which would be 
 altogether unnecessary. We ought, it seems 
 to me, first to carry out this arrangement as 
 far as it is possible to carry it, and if we 
 can secure the a ■=ont to it of the two larger 
 provinces bel there will be a reasonable 
 certainty of tL^. scheme being effected. And 
 then, and not till then will the proper time 
 arrive for the discussions of the proposed 
 
40 
 
 Constitutions of Upper and Lower Canada. 
 I am porfet'tly amazed at tho propositi •"! 
 of my hou. friend (Hon. Mr. Fkrousson 
 Blair), bm-ause ho i.s friendly to these 
 resolutions, and gave us the expro.ssion 
 0." his views thereon in an admirable 
 miinp.er at the opening of the debate. 1 say 
 that tho hon. gentleman should desire to 
 have the schLMue for the local legislatures 
 quoad this project is beyond my compre- 
 hension. 
 
 Ho.\. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR— I 
 
 f think it is only reasonable that aa hon. gen- 
 tlemen argue, they : '.. : ild see before voting 
 foi or again.st Federation what -re tJnj pro- 
 posed constitutions fur tlie l^eal legisla- 
 tures. (Hear, bear.) 
 
 Hon. Mr. CAMPBELIi— My hun. frienu 
 should aJd this to the rePectioM — that at all 
 events hon. members w'li liave a full oppor- 
 tunity of prouounc'-.g upon it 
 
 .»!• 
 
^J'^- ~^--t.—