IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^^ as WiST MAIN SiiiliT WIBSTIR,N.Y. USM (716) 172.4303 ;\ Aro8ume that will be better done at a future time, when the items of the esti- j^Dates we have before us come up for dis- cussion. I do not conceive Uiat these itimates differ very materially from khose we have had in possession for same days, except that as a latter of convenience — and no loubt it is a matter of convenience — le Hsoal year is to be changed from the 1st December to the 30th June. One jfearago to-morrow I rose to reply — I rill not say to reply to, but to make ■ome remarks following the hon. leader the Government in the same strain id in the same fpirit, as well as I was )le to do, in which he had been pleased address the House for two hours, some iven or eight days previous to that time, fow, sir, I say it in all sincerity, not- withstanding the strictures which my >n. friend has been pleased to use in re- ining to members upon this side of the louse, that I regret exceedingly lat I do not stand up at this le to follow and supplement irther remarks such as those which made on that occasion in the interests the Province of Manitoba. I regret exceedingly, because I believed then, 1 1 have stated previously, that a bett«jr ^y waii about to dawn for the Province Manitoba, when the two sides of the louse which had divided on various lestions, and perhaps in some instances _ >n questions which were outside mat- irs under discussion in this House, were liting. I thought it augured wnll for interests of the Province of Bfani- toba, inasmuch as it was giving a ipmcti- cal illustration of those views which I had always entertained in discussing these matters, that we were about to unite upon something in common for the interests oi our common country. I was pleased that it was the case at that time, and that is the reason, sir, because I was pleased on that occasion to see all the members of the House united on a com- mon platform, that I feel grief to-^night that I cannot follow in th? same strain as on that occasion — a strain which was endorsed by gentlemen on the other side of the House. A^hen the Premier in bis remarks the ether night took occasion to refer to members on this side of the House he said that they were only pleased when they had something that they could oppose; that they only lived, in fact, upon the dissatisfaction and discontent that existed throughout the Province; and they were always ready and sure to oppose everything the Gov- ernment introduced. Now, sir, I have only to say that the honorable gentleman had not very for to go to know that the position he took at that time was not in accordance with the faets. If he had gone back to two years ago he would have found that at that time he had the beat evidence he could possibly have thatsuoh was not the case; that when we found gentlemen opposite taking a position which agreed with our views of the sub- ject we did not desire to make any politi- cal capital out of the fact, or to •ay to them ** These were not .the views you entertained in other days when we advocated them ; you have changed your opinions" — we did not desire to tiuce that position, but we congratulated them on taking a position which we did perhaps say they should have taken previously, and found no 2 fault if at the eleventh hour the gentle- men took a position which we claimed should have been taken long ago in the interests of the Province. These gentle- men had only to refer to different occa- sions when mem1)ers of the Government and members on tliat side of the House introduced certain measures which we considered calculated to further the inter- ests of the country, and we supported them. They have only to refer to mat- ters which have transpired in this Legislature within the past few days to know that on every ociaaion whjn we felt that the Oovemment were introducing measures calculated to pro- mote the intpiests of the country, we were always read}' and willing to assist them. (Hear hear.) I say that on no occasion since 1879, while I have had the honor to occupy a seat in the Legis- lature of Manitoba, have I only opposed any measure for the sake of opposition. I tell the honorable gentleman to-night that not only has that been my policy, and the policy of gentlemen I can de- nominate as my colleagues in the past, but that will be our policy in the future. (Hear hear.) I care not how little con- fidence we may have in gentlemen oppo- site, I will never take a position for the sake of mere party advantage, I say coun- try first and party afterward. The Prem- ier, in making what he -was pleased to call his budget speech the other night took a little more than half of the time in the abuse of the Opposition. He re- minded me of the story of a counsel who , standing up in court and having no case, undertook to spend the greater portion of his time in abusing the opposite coun- sel. That, I fancy, was the position the hon. gentleman took the other night. I heard of some one making an estimate how many times the hon. gentleman re- ferred to * 'members of the Opposition," **my friends of the Opposition," ''the Opposition," etc. Acconling to the cal- culation if these had been taken out that speech of two hours and a quarter could have been delivered in an hour and a half. Now the hon. gentleman has com- plained that we did not give him credit for the particular date at which he made his speech last year. I am free to admit, sir, that if any gentleman on this side of the House, or on the other side of the House, or outside of the House, over forgot to give the particular days, or particular hours, it was a most important omission. Why should we whe know the hon. gentleman say that he wa i bound on the 20th of May last by state! ments made on the 16th of April'? I hav < the honor of returning a compliment pai( \ me a little more than a week ago, ant i saying that I have known him for severu years, and that we who know l.im so wel i would never think of doing him such aij the id, hav \her sid ie dain as ag Manito tntlemar I out of h injustice. The hon. gentleman in mov ||>u propo t year i circi d bread t do so; wyer wt king oi ing the second reading of a most rin portant bill, stood up and made t speech in its support, laboring loni and loud in its interests. My hen friend who sits at his right followed him and he allowed another hon. gentlemai to follow in the interests of that pmr « The ide ticular pet bill of his. The discussioi tfie transc went on for two or three hours, wheiof the P he suddenly discovered that the Legisla acts is alt ture, although it had followed him up t §b\e gentl that time, was not p .'epared to follov lihen he c him on that particular question. Trma** budge to his principle — the hon. gentleman and lose to be his colleagues on that side of the House wpeared i regarding it as a cardinal principle thai ven the c they should keep their seats— he with drew the bill. I recollect that on om occasion Grip, taking a view of the situ ation, and understanding the hon. gen tleman thoroughly, represented the Pre mier lying an a couch, with a little cap oi his head, and in trying t«» brighten up hit vidual, hose ut childish lishnes ling to rpose "i t a case ideas in the morning asking, ** What was m) |intlemaii policy yesterday ?" Now, Sir, if I evei #ntial wc said in my life that you could bind th( ||M8 mom« hon. gentleman by anything he enunci tin of Can ated a few days ago, or a few hours ago Ijpiend not I am prepared this moment before tht leipubmit t Legislature, and before you. Sir, to t'^ki ^ step ou it all back. Having known the hon " gentleman as I have so many years, anc having known the dififerent changes madt on different questions involving the inter ests of Manitoba, I will never attempt < anything of the kind. On the 16th o! April last year, my hon. friend stood up in this Legislature and mad( one of the best speeches I ever heard hin make — and he can make a good speect and in doing that he was advocating the claims of the Province of Manitoba. Now, sir, it appears to me we have not up to the present time, appreciated tht qualities of this gentleman ; we have no; understood his position, or the pe culiar traits of character of which he is possessed. A year ago, on the 16th of April, the hon. gentleman stood in this Itegislature and advocated the interests of the Province of Mani toba. A week ago last night, I think it^M»« *»*( 8 Mi he wa ist by state ipril'/ Ihav Sliment pai( : ago, an( a for leverK l.'im so wel him Buch ai lan in mov A most fin d made t »oring Ion; My hen •llowed him , gentlemai >f that pnr e diacuBsioi loura, wher ;he L9gisla 1 him up ti d to foUov ifcion. Triit itleman and the House Inoiple thai is — he with that on oni of the situ e hon. gen ed the Pre little cap or ;hten up hit Vhatwas m] r, if I evei lid bind tht he enunci r hours ago ; before tht Sir, to tuk( n the hon ^ years, anc langes madt ig the inter ver attempt the 16th 0! riend stooo and mad( r heard hin good speecli irooating the Manitoba re have not, reciated th rre have not >T the pfr of which r ago, on gentleman . advocated le of Mani , I think it irM, the hon. gentleman stood up d, having taken a brief on the her side, undertook to advocate e claims of the Dominion of Can- as against those uf the Province Manitoba. I am not judging the hon. mtleman too harshly, because I have out of his own mouth. He says, "Do a|:>u propose to bind me by what I said Ipit year in the little pamphlet which ii»8 circulated throughout the length id breadth of Manitoba ? You should jt do so; that speech was made as a wyer would make it, for the purpose uf king out a case.'' The idea of confining a gentleman of ||ie transcendant abilities of the Premier the Province to the barren fields of ts is altogether absurd. The honor- le gentleman was making out a case hen he delivered that speech, labelled f|** budget speech," and he did not pro- |pse to be bound by anything, though it "'^ peared that anythii<(< he could use — en the speech ef thu insignificant in- vidual, the member for Mountain, fhose uterances he «karacterized as childishness, silliness, clap-trap and lishness," was brought up and lie was ling to avail himself of it, for what 5" rpose? For the purpose of " making t a case." 1 submit, the honorable ntleman has entirely missed his provi- ntial way. Can you conceive, sir, at Hus moment, what the bar of the Domin- illi of Canada has lost by my honorable Mend not being called to jpubmit that even now it ill step out of bounds, as and pass a little short honorable gentleman y, what might he not iri^hed i If the great it long ago '^ would be V all we sometimes act admitting to the bar. have accom- Tichborne claim- It had known that such a gentleman ex- »d in the Dominion, what would he have given for his services ? If the lorable gentleman had only occupied proper position he might have gone ss the ocean recently and saved us $6,500 we paid to a celebrated gentlu- for undertaking to make out a which he did not make out. it we have this consolation, if had won that case, it would have been have lost, although there was a large lount of money spent. I have been ling this literature and the other rature since 1881 on this subject, lich has principally emanated from the gentleman, the Premier of this Pro- loe, and I have thousht that the hon. lOVK) gentleman was arguing his case on facta and matters which could not be gainsaid. Now I understand thoroughly that was not the case. When he said in his pam- phlet that it would take as much money some day to run the affairs of Manitoba, as of Ontario, he did not mean it, he was simply making out a case. When he said in 1880 that there were 22,000,000 acres of land in Manitoba which we had a right to claim and administer, he «lid not mean it at all ; if he had meant it, he would have carried it out at that time to its legitimate result. He tells us that by the case made out in his budget speech, he actually made a little better than $200,000 ; for, if it had not been for that speech the terms offered would not have been offered to the Province of Manitoba. I submit it is just a pity that we could not adjuurn in a few days and give the hon. gentleman whatever fee he thinks he is entitled to — the question of fee is nut a great deal — to go down again and make out another case. I have been figuring out a little in reference to these pamphlets and trips to Ottawa lately, and I find that making out that case and submitting it has cost the province some- thin^ like $10,000. Still, after all, that was a good investment ! $220,- 000 is the result of that speech ! Now, if this Legislature and the people of this country could only induce my hon. friend, notwithstanding he is not a member of the bar, to accept a retainer, and induce him to go to work to make out another case, we might urge that we have 36,000,000 acres of land, for if we have not we can imagine we have; if we have not 22,000,000 acres we can ima- gine we have, it is for the laudable pur- pose uf making out a case. I submit it is a pity that any influence could have been brought to bear, and that anytliing any body of men could offer, could have induced a gentleman of his ability to take a retainer on the other sic^e, which he has evidently done. It appears to me, Mr. Speaker, that it would have been much better to have taken a practi- cal view 'i the subjecAipon an occasion of this kind. I beg the pardon of the Legislature for saying that the hoa. gen- tleman made a budget speech the other night; I would not think of insulting the Legislature with any such insinuation. I fancy making a budget speech would consist in taking the figures and under- taking to show the Legislature and the people of Manitoba how, in view of the 4 fftot tlwt a f ull aetdemeut of the queation hwi (Men olosed, we were coing to get aloBg on that amount of money. That I fancy, would have been a practical view which would have interested the people of Manitoba very much, but the hon. S^entlemen never undertook for a mon ent to conaider tliat view of the queation. I auggeated aome time af{o that it would have been well if we had taken that view, and undertaken by fiicurea ^rom the paat and tho preaent, or by Bgurea from other legialatures, or any tigurea we could aecure, to show the people of thia country that we would have a auflicient amount of money to get idong on, aufficient for the Government to meet ita wanta, and provide Manitoba with auoh institutions as other provinces enjoyed. It appears to me that ia the practical view and the practical argument that would intereat the people of thia country, who it doea appear to me do not quite appreciate the elforta of the hon. gentleman nutwithatanding aome of hia remarka. True, he discovered that there was one little meeting held in Manitou sompoaed of I don't know how many in- dividuala, and another little meeting in the city of Mowbray, away down near Uie international boundary, cumpoaed of a little log ahanty, and theae two meet- inga endorsed the better tenna and de- clared them to be moat liberal. There waa another little meeting which I had mentioned on a previoua occasion — I was not at the meeting — at which a resolu- tion waa paaaed, which I read, and which my hon. friend waa careful not to read, which waa put into my hauda by a gentle- man who attended, for the purpoae that I might bring it here and press it upon the Government to induce them to reject the terms. I had a number of resolutions; anH 1 have known of a num- ber of laige meetings that have been held, composed of gentlemen of both shades of Eolitics, which did not endorse the terms, ut I have yet to find a large gathering met for the purpose of discussing the terms that haa aaid they were satisfactory to iho Province of Manitoba I said the other evening that, as a party man deair- ing party advantage, I could wiah my Conaervi^ive frienda no greater calamity thaa that they should ally themselves with tJioae terms as a final aettlemeut of (Jhe claima of Manitoba, and I repeat it now. Aa a further illustration of the incorcectneaa of my hon. friend'a position ijm otibea mghk, I nujy my that. we didnot wiah to offer afaotiMiaoppoaition to the Govm^pj^^ ei.'nment, but aimply wanted the Govem2^g }^„ ment to affirm the principle which thej^Qui^ ),a aaid waa contained in the report aubmit-j n^^ thei ted to the Houae, that the tettlemem^^^i^j. waa not final; that waa all the reaolutioiU||^Q ff|, ttaked, which the Speaker ruled out o^j^gji^f order. Did that look anything like||g3 f faction 1 The Government contendeclM| viewa and their aupportora contended, tha^[^ (.hat principle waa already embodied ii^Q^ing the document; if that waa true, why ob^fHien he ject to the amendment offered from thi^n^ landa aide of the Houae ? There could pos-m^i^T' f( aibly be no force in the objection madegi^y jaak] if the contention of the hon. gentlemen|g^ned oppoaite waa correct. Now it la not aur-gte^t the priainff, if the Conaervative party aa '^^ united party, are aatiatied with the torma, that we have not heard of aome ofii thoae large aaaociationa which gather ir, the centrea of the Province, meeting to-J^ gether and aaying in unmiatakable lau-| guage **We approve of the courae the Government haa taken in thia matter V'^ But we do not find people with a reputa-g tion to loae undertaking to do anythingi of the kind. It would be too much, Mr.L Speaker, to expect my hon. friend there,^ after having gone to Ottawa a number of ^ timea— he haa actually gone ao often thatklgl more he thought he had inatructiona to go abil the n aeoond time on hia laat miaaion— to fail.ioi^ing pt about the end of every yeai to go down — to diaouaa the queation; consequently weg find him taking a position which willd enable him bye-and-bji e to open the ques-L tion, that the population of the Provincof should not be reckoned at 400,000 80uls,t«il; I fi but should continue to increase untiliiM|to adv it correaponded with the numbera of thetS Provii larger provincea in confederation. WeuM^re. were compUiined of becauae we aaid that,)&tiy hon in auoh a matter aa thia, it would havebhi^ couk l)een right for the Government to havei»lk bette submitted the whole question to tho^lwttorp people, inasmuch aa the Government, iMiian gel and not only the Government but aomeoMlit ia n( of their supporters, were teking an en-f«iithe pv tirely different position in refereaoe toi this question from what they took a fewi years ago. We cannot claim, and we do/ not daiin, that there is ao much fault toi find with the aettlement that has justt been made, except upon the item of thei public lands. Now, it was tmt that reason e I contended the oLher evening, and II contend now, that, on account of thell change of front of my hon. friend and hisi aupportera, this whole queation should i hwrebwui aubMtlted to the peopk ofi >ntotiieGov4 knitobft. Thftt, it appears to me, would t- u ^^u^^o been the principle the Government which thejiljpuld jj^ve acted upon if they wished to port jubmitji^ themselves m the position of not eettlemen^king faith with the i>eople. I referred le w»olutioiU|„^j tiroe a«o to an address of the fh' *'"i-i?Wtemier when he went to the people in y thing like||g3 There was no misunderstanding of contended^ji ^j^ws at that time— but I am forget- ^™.**' *"?^^, make out a case for extracting a litt)d more money from the Duminii^n Government. If the hon. gentleman had 8i>ent live minutes out of the two hours and a quarter in showing to the people of the country that the amount of money now at the disposal of the Government was sufficient to meet the requirements of the Province, it would have been satisfactory; but as he did not do so it will be well fur that purpose to ge into a few fiofures and try to Hnd out, by the best means at our disposal, what it will take to run the affairs of the Province. The Premier thinks it safe to say there are 100,000 people in the Province of Manitoba ; and I think that is nearly what is correct. The Do- minion Government was willing to admit a population of 150,000; but after their policy had driven people out, they reduced the number proposed as the basis of capital account to 125,000. On the presumption that the population of the country is going to in'"*'><" -^, as we hope it wUl, and believe it \ totwithstand- ing all the barriers th^.. re being con- tinuaUy put in the way, it appears to me well to ask ourselves the question, if it takes, as it did last year, $500,000 to provide for the wantH of 100,000 people, what will it take to provide for the wants of 500,000 i The hon. gentlemen said we should base our calculations upon the population of the Province, and 1 think to a very great extent he was correct, and that in making calculations upon a sub- ject of this kind it would be well to con- sider the population of the country. It does appear to me that the position taken by the hon. gentleman the pre- vious year was about right when he said that as our population continued to in- crease, so our wants would continue to increase, and the amount necessary would also continue to increase. We will require various institutions which we have not to-day. The Government have now a little experience in pro iriding for an unfortunate class which exists in all the provmces, and are engaged in building a lunatic asylum; and there are other in- stitutions which, as the wants of the country increase, we shall require. It appeals to me an important matter to ask ourselves, before going it blind as lome people desire us to do, and try to |res gi of understand if possible, how the mean are going to be provided to meet thi wants of the people. It was said on former occasion that the Province Manitoba, with the same populationi would require just the same as Ontario and I believe the proposition is correcti or that a western country, situated as oug£ as th Province of Manitoba, would require ig^ical little more than Ontario. Let us lootte Hon for a moment .at what we have been dii^far in ing, and take that as an evidence riiices. what we will require. In 1873, the cj^o spe pendHure was $86,377-68. The nexMtice $ year, my hon. friend changed the tiscalii amt year so as to make it end on the 30th o^Sd of June instead «f the 31st December, bu Wiut i two-thirds of the expenditure for tIi;Mien by eighteen months amounted to $96,833. 8(i ||teolut for 1877 the expenditure was $91,273. 7(ilfeiuld ui for 1878 $107,026.37; for 1879 $140.11^ coui 271.91; for 1880 $201,751.06; for ISii^ $231,347.84; for 1882 $325,692.14; fo 1883 $495,612.23, and for 1884 $501J 709.48. Hence we see that the expenc ture has gone on increasing in all then years. What right have we to expec that it is not going to continue to do if our population increases as we hope will 1 It must do so. Now, it would hi well, perhaps, just for a moment to com pare our position with that of other Prd vinces, as my hon. friend said the othal night in discussion that it was well bue these matters on population, and see whether the position he took in othe days was correct, when he said it would require as much money to run the affair of Manitoba as to run the affaii of Ontario. Turn to Ontario, anal we find, taking the only thing my disposal, the estimates for 188i4 that the people spend $1.25 per head i^ravince, the population. Now let us come to thap^ve, n Province of Manitoba, and what do wjtt|^'as th< find under the same head? That last yeax ~ over $5 per head was spent, based upofl a population of 100,000, whieh ray hotbjl friend admits the Province containi That is to say, our population, which nt one-twentieth of that of Ontario require four times the expenditure of that pro\l ince. Now, does this go to show thatv>i can get along here with less than the do in Ontario'^ Let us take a couple items of this expenditure and look them for a moment. We shall find, if «i take the legislation and civil governmen of the Province of Ontario, and compail it with the legislation and civil govei ment of Slauitoba, that in the case I A 26,592.14; I >r 1884 $601 it the expend ng in all thei we to expe itinue to do } as we hope nr, it would he oment to ooii ; of other Pr said the otheii it waa well opulation, ani took in othi said it wouli run the affai the affai Ontario, am ily thing tes for ISB.'r] 6 per head i' 18 come to thi what do w, That last yea' it, based upoi lieh my hoi nee containi ition, which itario requiri of that pro show that^ ■ass than th e a couple and look lall find, if ^ il governmen! and com pa civil goveri i the case low the mean^tario it takes 16 oenU per head of the to meet thAulation and in the case of Manitoba was said on M40 per head. Does that look as 9 Province (4||agh the people of Manitoba were go- e populationi||to get along on less money than the e as Ontariuil|^le of Ontario, taking the same num- iou is corrbctiipr of population ? It louks tu lituated asoug|ias though, unless wo can get moreeco- >uld require llpiical gentlemen on that side nf Let us loui||j| House, our expenditure is going to luive been d(i(|fur in excess of that of the other Pro- m evidence 'jijlees. At the same time we find On- 1873, the exiMlo spending for the administration of i. The nexiMtice $24,000 a year, more than the en- nged the tiBca|||» amount I have named under the [>n the 30th omNkI of civil government and legislation. December, bu j^raa pleased to hear to-night a notice liture for thllen by the hon. member for Norfolk of to $96,833. 8(;||solution saying that these gentlemen as $91,273. 7(i||jl|uld undertake to administer justice in 1879 $146,|ii country. Well, judging by the 1.06; for 188i|i|res given, if the estimates are correct, I of the greatest burdens, one which people are laboring under and com- mg of almost every day by petitions the Legislature, will be that of the inistration of justice. These gentlo- should be in a position to give the le of this Province some little bene- m the grand terms they have made, mg with the estimates submitted to House a few days ago what do we This grant to the Province of itoba has raised her up to such a scale as compared with the other nces that she has just attained her rity — has just come in from the kit- and is about to dine in the dining- I These are the beautiful words, the me language of the hon. gentleman he used in another way last year he was making out his case. This nee, hon. gentlemen opposite now ve, not only occupies as good a posi- the other Provinces ! I do really ,er, in the face of all that has tran- and all that has been said, that entleman could stand up anywhere Province, not to say in the Legis- and make such a statement as But in any case we have got a more money, though I am at a loss what we have got it for. We find .tion and civil government, and hing eUe for that matter, increas- d running from $100,000 a few > to $600,000. Wa find we have T amount of money by over $200,- spend this year than we had last; hat benefit is the poor taxpayer to m all this 1 There are roads to be oonitruoted, bridges to b« bailt, and drainage and other works of that ohar* acter, always to be more or less undertaken by the Government, and these are some- times im|)ortant matters for some munioi' palities; but how does the gaining of that sum affects them? We find that when Manitoba was a poor, beggarly Province, when she was in a miserable position, going down annually to beg at Ottawa, S86,457.15 was the amount received by the people to assist in public works; but now, when she has attained such a fine position, when so much has been accom- plished by that celebrated speech, and when so much has been done to bring the Province up to such a proud position, we find that for the same purpose they are to get $32,700. Now there is something that I hope the people of this country will make a note of, and then we shall find out where the money of the Province is going to. The honorable gentleman took great exception the other night to my saying that, rather than barter away the rights of the Province, as he has done, to receive only $227,000, we had better remained in the position we occupied. The people of Manitoba are a practical people. The Premier never made a truer statement than he made the other night when he said that he had an eye to the substantial. Now, the people of the Province are in that respect peculiarly like him, I fancy. If anything is doing an injury to the Province of Manitoba at the present time it ia excessive taxation in some localities. If you want to retard immigration, place upon the people heavier taxation than they feel they can reasonably bear. If we go on further we will find out how it all comes about. Such lavish, extravagant expenditure has been taking place in certain quarters thst this amount of mofley was required to square matters up. The hon. gentleman made some allusion to the Province ef Ontario, and said we were proud of it. If we have a right to be proud of Ontario, I suppose we shall not be condemned for taking some of its figures in order to illus- trate the position we take. Take the estimates for printing and stationery for 1886 I find that in that old province, with 2,000,000 of people, with all her in- stitutions, with asylums at London, Brantford, Hamilton, Toronto, Orillia and Kingston, and all the other institu- tions under Government control, a cen- tral prison at Toronto, etc. with printing and stationery expenses connected with llMm, the atliiiutM for these etnoont to 943,450. Whe^ ebout this Provinoe of Bfanitobe ) Bxtraoting all the itemi for 1684 from the public eooonnta, I find that Umv^ amount to 140,990.21. Does that look like getting along with leat money than the Provinoe of Ontario, when it take* within a little more than $2,000 of the eame amount to pay for printing and stationery for Manitoba ae for that old and large provinoe f For this year $31,- 136 is plaoed for this eetimate; but if it is not ezoeeded it will be the fint time in the history of Bianitoba since I have known anything about it. I hope it may be very much less. These figures go to shew that it is not at all likely that the people of Manitoba in anything like a similar position, or with half the pop- ulation, will be able to get along with less money than the people of Ontario. I think this will show the fallacy of the position taken, when with such undue haste the aoeeptanee of these terms has been fastened upon the oountry. I would like to hear from some gentleman what might be termed a budg')t speech, in whioh he would undertake to show for future years that Manitoba will be plaoed in a position financially to under- take responsibilities and to assist the people, and to be on the same footing as the other provinces. Does any man believe that the position of Manitoba in -Confederation to-day is as good as that of the other Provinces? Will any man hazard his reputation by making such a statement? Notwithstanding all that has been said, I do not think so. I un- dertook last year, after making a careful ealoulation, to say I believed the clay was not far distant in the history ef Manitoba when she would require for the purposes 6f the Gh>vemment, if it assisted the people as it ought to do, at least $1,000,- 000 per annum. I am of the same opin- ion now, and I think that at least half that amount should have been derived as compensation in lieu of the public lands. 1 have the figures the hon. gentleman gave, and which he took exception to the other night, in a little document which was sent out through the Pro- vinoe, showing that we were possessed ef 22,000,000 aeres of land after deducting the school lands and other lauds already disposed of. I never heard anyone un- dertake to place a v^alue on the lands of less than $1 per acre. 1 undertook to say that the lands of Manitoba should not represent less than one dollar an y«u2f T Bninff l' of 1^}^"^ )N. acre. l|y hon. friend waa mvoh Mine^^"^ the other night beoause I tali^'*^ of eapitaliaation. 1 he author oom| of the results of his own teaohing, I lieve that was the first plaee in whic heard it. I heard him one >day in ' ~ 1881, make one of his best speeohe«! that very question; and I obtained information in reference to the Ian and in reference to the affairs of toba generally. I am sorry to find ' hon. gentleman get up and say, aft had for so many years plaoed such imj' cit confidence in hi!, teaching, paid sr attention, was willing to learn and " leum from him, listened to his b«* voice, heard his arguments, and gnii^ ^|! so much information, I believed valual***?*"' that he did not meF.n anything, that"** |®^. * was only making out a oase. Y«u ^W^^, understand how it grieves me that so many years in Manitoba listening and lewning from the teaching hon. gontleman and believing it to*! true, and stood on the stump and wa eloquent with the arguments he uJ and now to be told, after all these y^ biive passed, that he did not mean a wj of it, he was only making out a oase ~ say, Mr. Speaker, I stand in a deplor position; I don't know how I am g(/ to retrieve my lost hours and lost yJ spent in listening to the teaching of hon. gentleman. I say, Mr. Speaker' all sincerity, nothing would give " greater pleasure thui to stand up ' endorse such a statement as the Pvei/ gave utterance to the other night yi^, he said Manitoba had at^ ained to sub position; that he was proud to be abl{ say that he had been laboiring so long bring her to that position, and had i succeeded. Nothing would <^ff<»^i|g^ greater pleasure than to stand up ?^^ qq to-night and endorse that statement?^: v!^ have always had faith in Manitoba, have made it my home, and I would to see it the banner Provinoe; snd D| ing would give me greater pleasure to endorse the statements of the gentleman if I believed them ^to be root. It would afford me the pleasure to go into the country and the people, after their struggling years, that we have attained the posi? we were aspinng to and now we ^'i^^fAnn contented and luippy. But it will r'J^Wj-t^ more ability than I have to mak^ ''^wjji ex case, and to satisfy the people N. Mr. Norquat— I never said the population had decreased. Grkhnway — It is pretty hard to hat the hon. gentleman mt>ans. He his speech, referring to the popu- of Manitoba, that it was 100,000 it takes so and so to meet the of 100,000. He admitted upon er occasion, by his letter, that the tion was 125,000; of course I don't whether he meant it or not; those his remarks. In his figures he takes souls in the year 1881 ^ when the ion Government were willing to ) that we had 160,000 souls. . Mr. Norquay — I hate to correct on. gentleman so often, but I took ,000 souls as the last returned cen- compared with the last returned of the other Provinces. Green WAY — I quite understand make out a case to show the posi- Manitoba occupies to-day he should k to the year 1881. It shows the ess of the hon. gentleman that he undertook to make out a case for lends he was willing to back these I M^ *K~ w^afum^^^^ what the Dominion Govem- inea tne poaij^ ^^ willing to admit that we had .?f u-;?!**'*^*'^ souls the very year the census It It will rei^j^^jjjg^ rpijg question of the Unds is *?"\*^.*i "%- ail the place where the fatal blun- ■ P®**Y '.%**** ^^'^ "**^®- I* is not necessary lenueivea ^^j/ijl^e to use illustrations, for any gentle ■■mMohMii icauae I tal suthor eompli 1 teaohing, I place in whi one >day in ~ beat speachi I obtained icf) to the lai affairs of sorry to find and say, af laced such aching, paid s^ > >d t«> his Bnta, and gai relieved valual anything, thai b oaae. Y«u M me that I s^ toba listenini teaching of telieviag it itump and w umenta he ui tr all those y . not mean a % Iff out a case, id in a deplo tow I am gi i and loat yi teaching of > Mr. Speakc would give to atand up it as the Prei ither night vi itk ained to sui 'ovd to be abll boiring so loni >n, and had rould afford > atand up lat statement: a Manitoba, and I would kvinee; and er pleasure nta of the them >to be me the country and ir struggling Ito man can figure out what a certain portion of the municipalitv in which he reside* is worth, and this will show the absurdity of accepting $100,000 in lieu of the lands. The hon. gentleman stated the other night that some one on this side of th« House said 'Don't let go of the $45,000/ Certainly not. 1 said the land was wortl. more than ten times that. Don't give that away, but get ten times more. In all the calculations ever made who ever thought that $100,000 a year was going to be accepted in lieu of the landsl We have only to make comparisons to see the insignificant amount that has been re- ceived; it is there we should have received the amount we are now short, because when the Oonfedera- tion scheme was brought about the fact that the other iV. vinces had lands was taken into consid«.iation when the providing of reven'ie was taken up. Does any one bulieve that $109,000 a vear is sufficient cora|)ensAtion for the lands? If so he does not understand what they are worth. My hon. friend undertooK to depreciate the value of the lands, he now proposes a scheme for a land department. He proposes to assist railways and to take their lands as some- thing of a valuable nature to advance money on. He told us it was not desir- able to have a laud department, that there would be no revenue. I wonder if this bill is going to hand over the lands to be squandered. I believe the lands of the country are valuable, and in accepting the sum which these gentlemen accepted, they gave away, so far as they could do so, the only chance we had of receiving a sufficient amount to place us in a position to administer the affairs of the country properly. We can calculate now just what we are going to receive. When our population reaches 400,000 souls, in view of the facts before us, is it too much to assume that we will require twice the amount we require tonlay ? If we carry out the progressive statek^icnt shown a few minutes aso it will make $2,000,000. I cannot see hew we can get along with less than $1,000,000, but where are we goinff to get it ) We will get up to $600,000, or a little over $100,000 more than we have to-day, when we have a population of 400,000. It is most im- portant that people should know how fu- ture governments are expected to get along with the amount of money at their disposal, and from what source our reve- nue is to come. These are practical quea- 10 tionB which the people will very natu- rally Mk. I know that the people of the oonntry feel that the Government have not dealt with them as they ought to-day, have net given them the assiatanoe they ought to give; and they will be more im- pressed when they see the estimates. 1 think it is quite clear to every one, in view of the value placed upon the lands by gentlemen opposite, and in view of the position tliey hava taken in reference to them, that they ought to have submit- ted the whole question to the people be- fore ratifying the terms. It is a question that concerns the people, and if af- fairs are to be administered prop- erly, and they are to derive what they ought, the people are interested and should be consulted before an extensive change takes place. This little pamphlet (Hon. Mr. Norquay's speech) was circu- lated widely throughout the Province, and I intend circulating it some more. It is very good literature, with some very nice strains in it, and it led people to be- lieve the hon. gentleman was taking up their case, and was to fight for them to the bitter end. His words then were: * 'Manitoba has been, in fact, the most profitable investment the Dominion ever made in her whole public existence. In point ef fact, the revenues accruing in Manitoba and the Northwest have been the principal sources by which of late the credit of the Dominion has been placed on a firm basis in the money markets of the world, enabling the Federal authori- ties to pay interest on the large and heavy debt thrown on the Dominion by tiie Eastern Provinceson enteringConfed- eration." Is that sentiment true if the position the hon. gentleman takes now is true, that as compared with other Pro- vinces Manitoba is receiving more ? $20,- 000 has made all the difference. ' Hon. Mr. Norquay — It is over $220,- 000. That speech was delivered before the terms of the 20th of May were offered. Mr Greenway. The hon. gentleman said again that Manitoba was not in the position she ought to be, or why did he reject the terms 1 We take the little pamphlet here, prepared with very great trouble, which undertook to show how much more Manitoba paid into the Do- minion Treasury than nt ought to pay, and how much more the people were burdened than they ought to be ; now, if we are to believe the hon. gentleman, these burdens have been taken away. But it is all explained when we oomej the statement that he was simply mali out a case ; he did not mean what he i so there is no use in quoting from t| pamphlet. After circulating it ama the people for the purpose of excit them, creating discontent, and mak| them dissatisfied with their tion — for what else could the of this do — now, because honorable gentleman has succeedd getting $20,000 more; well, everythinjl lovely and the people should go hoi and rest in peace. I hope the people omight. the country will contend for their rigriiiirs — I hope it as much as I did last sessii do n< I do not believe the people are goingliii thoi be satisfied with the treatjoaent they ' now. I know they will not, and I hd they will not, as I want to see Manitd prosper and become a great province i to see my children prosper ; and I wi to see Manitoba brought up to fill I position in Confederation ; and no sgj beggerly terms as were pressed upon i House the other day should be accepij as a final setiilement. I am willing i go out and discuss that quest with the people and submit it I them. If the honorable gentlen had the courage of his convictions the manliness he ought to have, occuibal must ing the position he does, he would hiflTtthave been willing to submit the question) the people and ask their views. But f if by any means an expression of i people can be got rid of, if two or th in a comer can be got together to i that the terms are all they ought tod he takes advantage of the opportui while the unanimous verdict of the fkjj pie is that the hon. gentleman has cha ed his position since last year. Hei suits the intelligence of the peoplei telling them they are not judges of wN he should issue in making out his I say this whole question, before it finally disposed of, should have been liiit in ec mitted to the people of Manitoba; tto J^ow t would have been the best judges of tlT"^" ' wants and of the position they s^ occupy as members of the Confedl tion. These are the sentiments I utt last year, and am I to chd because the Government have at tl disposal $20,000 more? They were i oulated by the Gk>vemment themselij and were cheered to the echo by hi gentlemen opposite. I took even sir er ground then than to-night, becau said that unless we got fairer treating 11 hen we oomei B limply m«l )an what he •ting from tl iting it ami ose of ezci nt, and mal li iheir $ould the because as succeed ill, everythin[ ihuuld go hoi pe the people for their rii;! the demands oontained in our ulti- m were oonsidered* we would have a , and go^to work eut our own iy. I was consratulated by mem- on the other side of the House for g that speech. There was a gen- who took exception, but so deter- was the Premier that he stood up is place and undertook the somewhat less task of keeping that member I believed I was enunciating the otions of those I represented, I believe I am doing so ght. I believe these are the B of the people of Manitoba, did last sessic Mo not believe they are less spirited pie are going ban those of the other Provinces, or that hment they hikligr will submit to a wrong sooner than not, and I hJll people of other Provinces. 1 do not ;o see MauitiMeve that they claim more than even- sat province aipded justice, and I believe they will ue to contend for it until they e it. Let us be in a position that we take from the shoulders of the people burdens they have to bear. If the emment had done its duty we would been in a position to organize an gration bureau, and secure for itoba a fair share of immi- ^ts; and we would have been position to undertake other things must be undertaken in the future, have different institutions that must irganized if the Province is to be it ought to be. We have been told e now of the liberal manner in h we have been treated by the Fed- Government. We were pointed to building as an illustration. True it presented in an unfavorable way as but now the capital account is to duced by the price of this building, all expenditure upon works of a character are to be taken from the 1 account. The liberality of the er ; and I wi it up to fill n ; and no si iressed upon )uld be accepi am willing that quest submit it Bible gentlei convictions u have, occu] he would the questionl views. But xpression of if two or tl together to )y ought to le opportui iict of the (» eman has chi ; year. He the people judges of wl ing out his cakivernment does not appear in the light as when those matters in consideration. 1 have undertaken ow the unfairness of the Govern- in charging the Opposition with usness in regard to tiie terms, be- we desired to do no more than on record whaSi we could not see oontained in the document. All we as to offer a pi-^test against the set- ent being made final, in order to be position to claim what we ought to bye-and-bye to have enough to our necessities. You may talk it the bill of rights or any other sub- you please, Mcause back of this, if before it I have been Manitoba; tl ) judges of ion they shi the Confedi iments T ut I to chi have atti They were ant themsel' echo by hi )ok even st: night, beca >irer treattn we are to remain a member of Confed- eration, we are entitled to a living, and we must have a s«f- ficent amount of money to meet our wants. Will any gentleman on that side of theHousestandupand tellmehow, if five years hence our population is found, to be 400,000 souls, we are going to meet the wants of that population, and the different organizations and institutions of the country? That is the practical view of the question, and I hope that before we adopt the clauses of the estimates we shall have the opportunity of discussing fhem in that way, and have some oppor- tunity of showing that the amount of money at our disposal is enough for this year and next year and next and the year after. I leave the subject with the utmost confidence that upon some future occasion we shall have the opportunity if my hon. friend does not disappoint us. 'l am afraid there must be something of that kind, that in his having taken the oppo- site side there is an indication that w& are to lose the services of that hon. gentleman to his native province, and that he is going to wage war against us. That would be perfectly dreadful. But if we can judge from his arguments, if we are to call them that, if that speech is to be distributed as I understand it will be, it is certain to a very great extent to shut the mouth of the hon. gentleman when he goes down east, if he is to go, to look after, not only the interests of the east- em people, but also those of the people of Manitoba. Now he may be able u> persuade them as he has persuaded us, that he did not mean it, that he was only making out a case up here. I hope that something will let him out. Hon. Mr. Nokquay — I would like to see me out. Mb. Gre£nway— At a which the so-called better under discussion, exception was taken to the position the hon. gentleman had taken, and a gentleman said, discussing this little document (the Budget Speech), ''I am afraid Mr. Norquay got himself into a hole he cannot easily get out of.'' That was the conclusion aner reading that document. I hope that when he goes east we shall not lose his valu- able services, but that he will contend for the rights of this Province, and will be able to impress upon the people that in his speech a week ago ne did not mean exactly what he said, that Manitoba had attained her full majority, guess you meeting at terms were 12 and that she was liberally treated, but that there were other considerations which ought not to be forgotten. I hope that my non. friend, wherever he goes, will, before long, take another tack, get on the side which contends for _ rights of the people of Manitoba. (Lou and prolonged applause). .<• -.'- t.. 'I ?^''^ &«*' V Elec vote blLe Mr. m, Mr. miBtion And )elegate *6lleral < *rOvinc€ lent of i«ttislati ? It V leit, T afheR lion, the oilpted loi' be c( ame in ' Anc h^grou Qlf ing i ^ Mr. [UfjBtion .o|ny n .mlndni ccMlriian The >ebate c Fca- the Am •Madjc An( ;l09k on Mr. Ths Mel in< Ho islati IS 11 ntends lor tb initoba. (Loi ADDENDA. Electors of Manitoba, read and consider the following motions votes thereon as recorded in the Votes and Proceedings of the il Legislature. if.^ *. Saturday, 28th March, 1885. f I Mr. Bell rose to move an amendment, and objection having been n, Mr. Speaker ruled, That no admendment can be made until the jtion is proposed from the Chair. V And the question having been put, That the Report of the )dtegaies of the Manitoba Legislature appointed to press upon the 'oceral Government the favorable consideration of the claims of this *fOvince be adopted, and that the offer contained therein of a settle- iUgkt of the claims preferred by this Province, be accepted by this iCtifislature. f It was moved by Mr. Bell, seconded by Mr. Conklin, in amend- leilt, Tl.at while this Legislature re-affirms its position as presented »e Resolutions unanimously agreed to by this House at the last Hon, as recorded on page 98 of the Journals, it is of the opinion the Terms now offered by the Dominion Government should be o(i|pted as far they go; but on the condition that the settlement shall loi' be considered as a final and full settlement of our claims, and that hai Province shall not be debarred from again pressing the just claims a#e in the " Bill of Rights." 1 And objection having been taken to the proposed amendment on hlRground that the mover and seconder of the amendment having .lip»dy taken part in the Debate, they were thereby precluded from acting an amendment, ^1 Mr. Speaker ruled that no member who has already spoken to a [ii||6tion may rise again to move an amendment, though he may speak opmy new question when proposed by other members, and that the .mpndment was therefore out of order, his decision being given in .cate on the question. That Mr. Speaker do not leave the Chair. J^ the House in the Committee of Ways and Means.) I And the Question being again proposed, the House resumed the iaj|l adjourned Debate. k And the House havingr continued to sit till after twelve of the ikipk on Thursday moining, • Thursday, April, 23rd, 1886. f Mr. Bell moved in amendment, seconded by Mr. Hay, M That the Speaker do not now leave the Chair, but in view of the |id increase of the E ,,>enditure of the Province, it he resolved, that House is of opinion that the terms recently accepted by this slature should not be considered a final and full settlement of our s upon the Federal Government. i:! And the question being put on the amendment, the House divi(l| and the names being called for, they were taken down as follow :— Yeas: — Messieurs Bell, Conklin, Gigot, Green way, Hay, Marj Winram and Young, — 8. Nays: — Messieurs Allan, Brown, Davidson, Hamilton, Hani' LaRiviere, Lecompte, MacBeth, Mawhiriney, Miller, Norquay, Pr| homme, Wagner, Wilson, Wood worth, — 15. * Friday, April 24th, 1S8 On motion of the Hon. Mr. Norquay, seconded by the H >n. LaRiviere, Ordered, That the Resolutions reported from the Couimitte- Ways and Means be now read a Second time. The Tenth Resolution bemg read a Second Time, Mr. Martin moved in amendment, seconded by Mr. Winram, That the Resolution be not now concurred in. bir that i resolved, That this House is of opinion that owing to the exis depression and consequent reduction in salaries of employes gener, a very material saving in expenditure could be effected in the res tive Departmental offices of the Government. And the question being put on the amendment, the House divr and the names being called for, they were taken down as follow :— Yeas: — Messif urs Bell, Conklin, Greenway, Hay, Martin, Wini Young, — 7. Nays: — Messieurs Brown, Cyr, Davidson, Douglas, Hami Harrison, LaRiviere, Lecomte, MacBeth, Mawhinney, Miller, Nort] Prud'homme, Tennant, Wagner, Wilson, Wood worth, — 17. The Fourbeerch Resolution, being read a Second time, Mr, Bell moved, in amendment, seconded by Mr. Young, That the Resolution be not now concurred in, but that i' resolved : That this House is of opinion that the selection of the site fo; Lunatic Asylum was a most injudicious one, and on account o; nature of the ground will cause a serious loss to the Province : And be it further resolved : That Oil account of the increased amount at the disposal o Government, the sums placed in the Estimates for aid to Munici | ties is entirely inadequate to meet the wants of the people. And the question being put on the amendment, the House divi and the names being called for, they were taken down as follow : Yeas: — Messieurs Bell, Conklin, Cyr, Greenway, Hay, Ma Tennant, Winram, Young, — 9. Nays: — Messieurs Brown, Davidson, Douglas, Hamilton, Han LaRiviere, Lecomte, MacBeth, Mawhinney, Miller, Norquay, Pi homme, Wagner, Wilson, Wood worth, — 15. !! e House divi)> as follow :— ly, Hay, Mar^ nilton, Hani Norquay, Pi IL 24th, 1S8 by the H »n. e Cotiimitte- r. Winram, . bir that i to u\e exis ployes gener, i in the res 3 House divii as follow :— Martin, Winil iglas, Haini: Siller, Nor(il -17. iirne, 7oung, but that itl f the site foi 1 account of e Province: disposal of I i to Munici; ^ople. 3 House divi i as follow :- ', Hay, Ma. I lilton, Han S'orquay, Pi 1