IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I U;|28 |2.5 2: i£ 12.0 12.2 m 11.25 i 1.4 LI 1.6 V] /, f y /^ CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHM/ICMH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques 1980 Technical Notes / Notes techniques The Institute has attempted to obtain the best original copy available for filming. Physical features of this copy which may alter any of the images in the reproduction are checked below. L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur exemplaire qu'il lui a 6t6 possible de se procurer. Certains difauts susceptibles de nuire A la quality de la reproduction sont notAs ci-dessous. Q Coloured covers/ Couvertures de couleur D Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur D D D Coloured mrps/ Cartes giographiques en couleur Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ Pages d6colordes, tachet^es ou piqudes Tight binding (may cause shadows or distortion along interior margin)/ Reliure serrd (peut causer de I'ombre ou de la distortion le long de la marge intdrieure) D D D Coloured plates/ Planches en couleur Show through/ Transparence Pages damaged/ Pages endommagdes D Additional comments/ Commentaires suppldmentaires Bibliographic Notes / Notes bibliographiques n Only edition available/ Seule Edition disponible Bound with other material/ Reli6 avec d'autres documents D D Pagination incorrect/ Erreurs de pagination Pages missing/ Des pages manquent D Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque D Maps missing/ Des cartes gdographiques manquent D Plates missing/ Des planches manquent Additional comments/ Commentaires supplAmentaires The images appearing here are the best quality possible considering the condition and legibility of the original copy and in keeping with the filming contract specifications. Les images suivantes ont 6t6 reproduites avec le plus grand soin. compte tenu de la condition et de la nettett de I'exemplaire film6, et en conformity avec les conditions du contrat de filmage. The last recorded frame on each microfiche shall contain the symbol — ^> (meaning CONTINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Un des symboles suivants apparattra sur la der- nidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbols — ► signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbols y signifie "FIN". The original copy was borrowed from, and filmed with, the kind consent of the following institution: Library of the Public Archives of Canada Maps or plates too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: L'exemplaire film6 fut reproduit grAce d la g6n6rosit6 de i'6tablissement prftteur suivant : La bibliothdque des Archives publiques du Canada Les cartes ou les planches trop grandes pour 6tre reoroduites en un seul clichd sont film6es d partir de Tangle sup6rieure gauche, de gauche d droite et de haut en bas. en prenant le nombre d'images n6cessaire. Le diagramme suivant illustre la mdthode : 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 OF-FIOIAL REPORT OF THB SPEECH DKLIVIRID BT fioN. Edward Blake, Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, OH THE IRISH QUESTION HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 20th, 1882. OTTAWA: Printed by MacLhan, Rosbr ft Co., Wellington Street. 188 2. '^/« h' r'^-' B ' A. >v. »»' A , p- 1^; 1; fm^'' ' ' ^' * f Bk5j " "i* ^ ** mSSSa&a-t-^ * ■Kk ' rji^.c-.jv.. f.J>\.^t HON. EDWARD BLAKE'S SPEECH ON THE IRISH aUESTION, HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, 20th April, 1882. Mr. BLAKE. If no other hon. inembor proposes to address the House on the subject, I do not, for my part, feel disposed to give a silent vote upon it. It is now two years ago since, in the course of a very important discus- sion here, I ventured to suggest in my place in Parliament that the accession to power which had then recently taken place of the Liberal Administration in England, would lead very shortly to che concession of some measure of Home Ru'e to the Irish people. I believed, as I said, that such a solution as could bo obtained of the land question, such a solu- tion as had been from time to time reached of other ques- tions, would, after all, not settle the Irish question, and that unless the dictates of prudence and of justice alike were observed and fulfdled by the granting of some measure of control over thei'* local afifaii's, we would see that which has been the disgrace and the humiliation of the British Empire for many years still continued. I also observed, as the hon. gentleman in his speech and in his motion has observed, that we had one amongst many material interests here, in Canada, in the solution of that question, in the change which might be expected from it in the attitude of the great bulk of the Irish people towards the Empire, that we had a material — although I regard that as a much lesser interest than the interest which has been mainly discussed — we had a material interest of a serious character with reference to the chances and the opportunity of immi- gration to our soil so long as the present state of feeling continued. Now, I propose to justify the attitude which I took upon that oceasion and which did not then meet with any very animated response in the House or in the country j I propose to justify it by a reference to some obvious his- torical facts which it appears to me can lead to only one inevitable conclusion. In order that we may understand 2 the grounds upon which, as I conceive, some action in this direction is doraonstrably necessary, it is by no means needful to go further back than to the time of the Union. IRISH GRIEVANCES. It is not needful here to recur in detail to the more ancient events in connection with Irish history, to the history of the conquest, to the history of the confiscations, to the history of the proscriptions, to the history of the penal laws, directed at one time against Protestants, and at one time against Catholics, to the history of these penal laws of the most serious and terrible description, laws ari events to which I have briefly alluded, but which ought to make us all, when we recur to them, blush with Bhanie, ^and which had left the marks of human error and of human crime almost indelible, and enhancing, there can bo no doubt, even to-day, the diflSculticr-: of the situation. I say it is needless for the pur- poses of this discussion that we should revert to them in detail, for I am willing that this question should be tried not upon the history of the past eighty years, but upon the history of the government of Ireland under the present constitution of the United Kingdom. That history begins with the Union Act — an Act secured, as you all know, by means of the basest corruption. However beneficial the public men who carried that iueuhure may have believed it to be, I ^do not suppose it will be urged to day that the end justified the means, and 1 have myself a strong belief that the nefarious means by which that measure was carried, operatoi very largely to increase the difficulties of its working and produced a state of feeling which gave it a poor chance of being satisfactory to the people of the coun- try which was by such means brought into more intimate connection with the Empire. But, Sir, since that period, for a little more than eighty years has Ireland been managed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and I do not hesitate to say that the result of that management has been a DREADFUL FAILURE. There has been time enough to try the questi )n out. Eighty years in the history of a country, and such eighty years as Ireland has experienced, is surely time enough to try the question out. Now, let us apply some obvious, plain and palpable tests as to whether there has been a good and successful administration of Irish affairs under the existing system. The population of Ireland in 1*726 was 2,300,000, in 1805 it was 5.400.000, and 1 V I*- r m 8 that increase, more than doubling, occurred during a time of difficulty, of religious proscription and of emigration. In 1841, the population had abnormally increased under circumstances which it is not necessary to discuss, but it had increased to the number of 8,200,00J. But since 1841 the history of Ireland has been a history of periodical distress, of famine and of emigration, and the result is that the population, which at the time I have stated stood at 8,200,000, stands to-day at 5,160,000 only, or 235,000 less than eighty years ago at the time of the Union, and 3,000,000 less than it was forty years ago. In the last thirty years, from 1851 to 1881, there has been an emigra- tion from that country of no less than 2,750,000. Now, it may be said that IRELAND IS OVER-CROWDED. I deny that Ireland, as a whole, is over-crowded. There are parts of Ireland in which the distribution of the population is probably too dense ; but I maintain that, juciging by all the tests which we can reasonably apply to it, Ireland, as a country, is not an over-crowded country. The number of inhabitants to the square mile in France is 180 ; Italy, 225 ; Belgium, 421 ; Flanders, 718 ; England and Wales, 442 ; in the whole of Great Britain, 333 ; in Ireland, 161, Tho acreage of Ireland is 20,325,000 acres, of which there is at present arable 13,465,000 acres and an additional acreage easily made available for tillage of 4,000,000 acres more, making a total of land actually arable and available for tillage of 17,465,000 acres. How many acres are culti- ;vated at this time — only 5,200,000; and this is the case with respect to a country of which the soil is indubitably very fertile, which has raised in times past enormous crops, comparing favorably in past times with crops at the same time raised in England, of wheat, rye, barley, peas, beans, potatoes and turnips, and no one doubts the capacity of Ireland for i-aising cattle. It has very great advantages, ' It has great quantities of bog land from which is produced a very cheap fuel, and which lands when reclaimed are inferior to none in the world whether as wheat or as pafr ture land. It has splendid coal fields, although these are hardly used at all. It has magnificent, perhaps unequalled fisheries in regard to the quantities of fish caught and hai> bor and other facilities in connection with the industry. It is possessed of valuable mines of gypsum, gold, silver, lead, copper and zinc. It has, besides, great facilities for manufacturing both as regards facilities for the transport of manufactured goods, for the supply of raw material, and for the cheapness of the labor to be employed. It has, moreover, great water power, encouraging the manu- facture of the raw material into the perfected article. It has a people confessedly very free from crime of the ordinary kind ; a people which, whatever their pronpccts and chances and capacities may have been demonstrated to be in their own country, have shown in every other countiy than Ireland, that they poHseses the capacity to rise, and, by their industry, their ability and their force of character to take their own place in the world, wherever their lot may be cast. They are also a people confessedly affectionate, and grateful ; and possessing, in a large degree, the organ of veneration, are easily impressed by any act of kindness shown towards them. With such a people, with such a soil, with such natural advantages, how does it como that we have such a result, with respect to population, as I have mentioned ? How does it come to pass that the population of Ireland should have diminished instead of increased, that the emigration should have been so great, and that the condition of the country should be such as we know it to be ? THE WHOLE IS DUE to the chronically wretched state of Ireland — its miseries, social, material and political. That is the reason why. Although there may be, although there has been, as we all rejoice to know, some improvement in the physi- cal condition of some portion of the population during the last few years, this is to-day a pressing question, and no man holds that the condition of Ireland is satisfactory when viewed in those aspects to which I have referred. The con- dition of the people materially, in this as well as in other respects, is one which ought to create in all of us who call ourselves British subjects a feeling of shame. I say that the condition of Ireland to-day is due largely to the want of security and contentment, to the want of identification with the soil and attachment to the Constitution, to the want of hope of improvement and of bettering their condition, which is really the most essential thing to induce men to labor. 1 say that it is due to a feeling that their grievances are not redressed, to the lack of a feeling that their Government is conducted according to their needs and wishes, and to the lack of any machinery for the management of their local affairs. There can be no doubt that Ireland, at and before the time of Union, was subject to some great political griev- ances. There can be no doubt that those grievances were not of a sentimental character, but were such as to a large extent are to-day, acknowledged to be grievances which demand the attention of legislators, and should be redressed by legislation. IRISH LEGIHLATION. If you go back ovor the history of the parliamentary govoi-ntriont of Ireland for the last eighty years, and if you begin your on.piiry by a reference to tho«o great and imjjortant land marks or grievances, and should enquire as to the time when, and the circumstances under which, tiioso grievances have been, so far as they have boon, redressed, you will find a very good reason there, if you sought no farther, for a deep-seated and justifiable dissatis- faction in the parliamentary government of Ireland, by the Parliament of the United Kingdom. There was the question — at that time as much a question of justice and of right as it was at any later time — of Eoman Catholic emancipation. There was the question — at that time as much a question of justice and of right as at any later time — the disestablishment of the nominal church of the minority. There was the ques- tion — at that time as much a question of what was called here the lamentable question, but still in the condition of the country none the less a pressing question — of a proper measure for the relief of the poor, required because of the unnatural conditions that ruled distribution. There was a question of reform of THE LAND LAWS, by the creation of proper interest in the soil by those who occupied the soil. There was the question of creating local institutions to manage local affairs, and rendered very important because of the abrogation of the rights of the I'arliament of Ireland and the transfer to Westminster of the management of those minute afltairs which, up to that time, was under the control of the Legislature which sat in the capital city of Ireland. These leading questions, to which I have referred, have been in part—all but the last one, and that one has never been substantially dealt with — disposed of, and it may be asked, since such is the fact, why do I refer to them. I refer to them, because I see that the circumstances under which, and the time under which, those questions were dealt with, demonstrate more clearly than anything else can do, the unsatisfactoiy character of the Government of Ireland by the Parliament of the United Kingdom. When was the question of Eoman Catholic emanci- pation dealt with? It was not dealt with until nearly thirty years after the time of the Union. Thirty years is about a generation, and it required about a generation for the Parliament of the United Kingdom to nerve itself to the task of dealing with that question. And low was it then granted ? Was it granted them aa th« 6 boon of a cheerful givoj' ? No, Sir. It wjih grantod grudgingly und of nocensity. It waa granted, avowedly granted by the Ministry bocuuso TUEY WERE FORCED TO DO IT, not becauHO it was junt, because they had been piochiiming to the ends of tho earth that it was not just. Not bocauso it was right, because they had been ])rochiiming that it wa» wiong. It was granted, because, as they thcmselvcM stated in Parliament, tho question was between ^Mantirg that concession und civil war. The condition of things hud como to that pass that there was to bo an immediate oulbieak, a civil-war, urlcbs iJoman Catholic emancipation was granted Well, Sir, did that do good ? Of course, you could not remove, even under such circumstances, a mouHtrous injus- tice of that description without some good being done ; but I say the good was minimized by tho Jelay which took place, .'ind tho attitude which was assumed by those who received and by those who gave that Act. Tho Irish people were taught that dreudiul lesson, so far as the Admi- nistration of the Parliament of the United Kingdom could teach them it, that England's difficulty was Ireland's oppor- tunity. They were taught this by the delay, and by the disposition with which thono Ministers acceded to the grant. They were taught not to rely upon thi«t constitutional agitation which is tho proud basis of our system, and which every one is free to engage in, but upon other and worse methods of accomplishing by unconstitutional levolt. I say that no doubt something was done by the removal, even under those circumstances, OP THAT GREAT BLEMISH, jet nothing was done towards relieving, or conciliating the feeling of the Irish people, towards leading them to believe that they had a right to expect from iho unconstrained sense of justice of tho British Parliament the relief which they had aright to have; or towards obtaining those golden fruits which might have been reaped from a gi eat act of justice cheerfully performed, in suflScient season. The next great measures of relict for Ireland — and I am dealing now only with remedial legislation — I am dealing with those measures to which the English Parliament niv.y point with the greatest pride as marks of its parliamentary gov- ernment with reference to Ireland — the next great nu'asures of remedial le, lation occurred, how long after ? Nearly twenty years riicf. It was not until nearly twenty yej'rs Jhad elapged that we had the measure for the relief of th» poor to which I havo icforrod, followed whortly hy, and intended at the lime to ho followed aw woon an posnihio by an Act lor the wale of encumhored estates The years, 1846 and 1849, are, I think, the yearH in which thoHo two measureH were pansed ; ono fully twenty years after, the Emuncipation Bill, and the other a few years earlier. Those ActH, as ] have said, were not of a late date, they wore not the offspring of fresh institutions lately developed. They were the approach by the English Parliament, the Parlia- ment of the United Kingdom, to dealing with old difficul- ties, and how again was it that they were brought about? How was it, that the public opinion of the iiriti.sh people and the opinion of the Purliamont of tJie United Kingdom, was anmsed to action, such actum as was then tnicon in these two particulars? .Sir, it was not the hand of the insurgent upon that occasion, it was not the hand of the agitator, so much as THE UAND OF FAMINE and of peKtilenco. It was not until the direst calamity which has beset the modern Christian world oamo upon us, and until a famine took place in which more human lives wore lost than in all the wars with which England has reddened the soil of Europe or the woild, it was not until that had happened, that the public opinion to which the House referred was HuflSciently aroused to deal with this question. Such was the unhappy condition ofli-eland, and the moasuie passed for the relief of the poor was a great boon to them. The Encumbered Estates Act, too, was greatly needed. It was hoped, however, that that Act would have had an indirect effect very boneficiul to the tenants, but that hope failed. The condition of the tenants as a whole from the practical operation of the Act was not mitigated, because it happened thjit the sales of many of the lands that, smre told under the Encumbered Estates Act were made to persons entirely new to the country, and who, in a great nuiny instances, were wholly neglectful of and defiant of those customary— I cannot call them rights— but those customary favors which were granted by the former proprietors to the tenants, and the system of rack-renting and the other difficulties which might naturally be expected to grow from such an unnatural system as existed, were aggravated and intensified by the r^^w proprietory ; and so it happened that DEiiAND FOR TENANT RIGHT became more — pressing as it was before— bicame still more pressing by reason of the practical operation of the Encum- borpd Estates Act. Well, Sir, about twenty years more elap«ied before the next great remedial measure for Ireland was carried through the British Parliament. It was, I think, in 1868 the law for the disestablishment and disondowment of the Irish Church was passed, nearly fifty years after the Union took place. Now, who can pretend that that act of justice was not as much an act of justice at the time of the Union as it was at the date it became law. The principle on which the disestablishment was carried ia immutable, eternal, and the question had been raised, as we all know, generations before. Public men in advance of public opinion of the United Kingdom and of Parliament — intelligent men, statesmen, had raised it, had pointed out that it was impossible that that establishment could be defended and maintained --had proposed that an act of justice should be performed, but it was utterly impossible to make pi*ogress in that direction. An old, old grievance, a grievance so old as to be almost out of date, u grievance of the most pressing character — how, I ask, was redress to that grievance obtained ? Now, Sir, I shall give you an authentic account of how it came that Parliament and the people of the United Kingdom decided to remove that ancient grievance. I shall give you the account which the author of that great measure for Ireland himself garo in 1878 in the Midbtiiian campaign. These are the words Mr. Gladstone ^u«ied in explaining how it came about that the Irish Ouurch was in 1868 disestablished and dis- endowed : " Down to the year 1865, and the dissolution of that year, the whole question of the Irish Ohnrch was dead. Nobody cared for it. Nobody paid any attention to it in England. "That is the nobody in England and Scotland, not the nobody in Ireland, nobody paid any attention to it in England. Then circum- stances occurred which drew the attention of the people to the Irish Church. T said myself, in 1865, and I believe that it was out of th« range of practical politics, that is the politics of the coming elections." Now, what was it that brought it within the range of practical politics ; what was it made it possible to carry that measure of reform ? Some new events, some new chain of reasoning that led to conviction on the part of the people that it was a just measure ? I will read you what it was : ** When it came to this, that a great jail in the heart of the metro- polis was broken open under circumstances which drew the attention of the English people to the State of Ireland ; and when in Manchester policemen were murdered in the execution of their duty, at once the whole country became alive to Irish questions, and the question of the Irish Church revived. It came within the range of practical politics." That is the reason in this great measure of legislation by which the people and politicians of the United Kingdom were led to the belief that the question was within the range of practical politics, and led to see what was their duty to the people of Ireland. Once again there was the same moving cause to the remedy. Once again there was the same long heart-breaking delay, and once again English and Scotch opinion would not act until compelled to do so. Once again, therefore, there was no meed of gi-ace in the meapure so obtained. It was forced from the British Par- liament, and was so acknowledged, and therefore if it did remove the grievance it did not — as timely and cheerful legislation would have done, as any consideration ot justice would have done — contain the clement of grace and did not excite a feeling of gratitude in the hearts of those to whom the benefit was granted. Sir, that measure wa3 a great measure in two distinct aspects. First of all it destroyed t'le pre-eminence of the church of the minority. It removed a crying injustice; it changed a condition which had combined the religion of the majority with their patrio- tism, a patriotism which, so long as it was the policy of the Parliament and people of the United Kingdom lo maintain the church of the minority, was necessarily an anti-national patriotism. Besides that, there was the material gain that Irish funds to the amount of many millions were set free for legitimate and proper Irish purposes, not denominational, not sectarian, not for the minority, not for the majority, but for the whole people. Besides all this, the practical results of the disestablishment of the IRISH CHURCH, it had the indirect effect hardly less important. It was the first effective measure for giving to the occupiers of the Irish soil a great and tangible interest in the soil, and for increasing the number of Irish proprietors The just provision which gave to the tenants, on church lands the pre-emption right to purchase those lands on moderate toims, a very small sum being payable down, and the residue being spread over instalments for thirty-two years, compounding principle and interest at a low rate, which made the annual payment not materially more than the accustomed rent, gave the tenants of church lands an opportunity of which they gladly availed them- selves of becoming the owners of the lands tliey occupied. And thus it added no less than 5,000 to the number of Irish proprietors of the soil. With our notions, having regard to the figures I have given as to the population, you may say that 5,000 Iridh proprietors is a trifle. What is the use of saying so much about 5,000 Irish proprietors f I admit that it is a drop in the bucket, but then the bucket 10 had veiy li^Ue morfj thuu a drop total number of iu it at the time. The IRISH PROPRIETORS at that time was but 16,000 ; so that this measure in its operation added no less than 5,000, or very nearly one-third, to the number of Irish proprietors, and a measure which has such an effect cannot but be regarded as a very important measure of relief, !Now, Sir, Ireland is a country of small agricultural holdings, and in considering this question, wo must not forget that circumstance. There are in Ireland no less than 5^53,000 distinct farm tenancies, of which no less than 450,000 aro under 50 acres, and no less than 50,000 more aro between 50 and 100 acres, showing that the great bulk aro under fifty acres, and no less than 5ii0,000 out of the total 533,000 are under 100 acres. Although there are exceptions, as we know, principally in one of the provinces of Ireland, but also in the case of many estates scattered through other Earts of that country, yet the bulk of these 5 3,000 oldings are yearly, and they are yearly in a country in which the custom has been that the tenant shall make the improvements, a custom which is wholly incompatible with the conditions of yearly tenancy. Now, Sir, while that is the number of IRISH FARM TENANCIES, let us see to what extent the prevails. In Ireland, one in ownership of farm lands every 257 personi^, owns farm lands, while in France one in every eight pernons owns farm lands ; in central and northern Europe, the tenure of land is widely diffused ; and while we have seen a very gradual growth and a very imperfect development, in the continental countries of Europe, of the principles of popular and I'eeponsible government — while in that regard they are far behind the United Kingdom, yet we have seen, sinco the dayH of the French revolution and tLe Napoleonic nge, large ai'vauces niauc — much laiger advances than have been ever dreamed of in England towards diffusion ot'the tenure of land, and the abolition of that most objectionable portion of the feudal t-ystem. In the lihiuo Provinces, including "Westphalia, there aro ll,00o,0i,0 acres of cultivable land — and how many proprietors ? 1,157,000 proprietors, or one to ovejy ten acres of land ; and if you read the history of the contentment and comfort, the work and labor, the eneigy and industry — the indomitable industry — that is displayed in many of these countries by the proprietors of tbet-e small areas, 3'ou must Le convinced that the only thing that enables the Government of these countries to bo 11 carried on at all, burdened as they are with enormous expeneee, with an imperfect development of constitutional government, with great military armaments, and with an oppressive system of conscription and military service — tho only thing that gives tho people heart and hope, and enables them to struggle on at ail, is that wide dittusion of the ownership of land than which there is nothing better calculated to promote the stability of the people, to whom tho land belongs. Take the State of New York, in which there are 22,200,000 acres of farm lands, and in which the holdings are large, as is natural in a new country, where there is so much land undisposed of as there is on this con- tinent. There the owners of the land, in 1870 were 216,000, against 21,000 in Ireland, including the owners of church lands. Look at two portions of Ireland, which may be selected as examples : take the agricultural counties of West Meath and Ctivan, which comprise 1,360,000 acrei«, and in which there are 612 owners of less than 50 acres in that whole district ; in the counties of Galwuy and Mayo there are 2,760,000 acres, and there are only 225 owners of less than 50 acres. The NUMBER OP SMALL OWNERS 18 insignificant in England, but that number is computed to be about ten times as large in proportion as tho number is in Ireland, and that in a country ot which I believo the greatest practical blemish to-day is its own land laws. I beliove there can bo no doubt that the greatest blemi^h in England and Scotland to-day is tho condition of tho ownership of land ; but even there that difficulty was diminished relatively to the condition of things in Ireland. Now, Sir, there can be no doubt that tho old penal laws, which among other relics of barbarity prohibited for a long time Eoman Catholics eiihei- fiom owning oi- inheriting lands, had much to do with the creation of tho present state of things as to the iandholding in Ireland, and that state ot things being once created and marked deeply upon the country, it became of course proportionately diificult to obliterate it. Tho result was a PRACTICAL serfdom: the people who cultivated the lands were only left with enough to subsist on in a miserable manner. All concede that there were many landloids ia Ireland who granted proper leases, and behaved with propriety towards their tenantry ; yet in the main, the practical result was that the whole profit of the lands, ■with tho exception of a poor, miserable subsistence to the 12 tenant who worked them, went to the landlord, and also that where improvements were made, an early opportunity was taken to increase the I'ental of the lands to the extent to which they had become capable of producing, by virtue of the improvements which the tenant and his family had, made. This was a state of things which of course did not merely diminish, but destroyed, that hope of bettering himself, which is the spur by which you can expect men to rise, and under the influence of which you can expect happiness and contentment to be diffused. The first or one of the earliest writers on the subject of land holding — Young, I think — says : " Give a man but nine years' lease of a garden, and he will turn it into a desert ; give him a free- hold of the naked rock, and he will turn it into a garden ; " and I believe that not untruly represents the relative con- dition of things between the- short holder under the customs that prevail in Ireland, and the proprietor. IN ow that situation would have been bad enough, if the rents so exacted from the tenantry were rents in any proper sense of the term ; but the whole produce of the soil goes, not to enable the unfortunate people to clothe themselves. BUT TO LIVE IN BAGS, not to feed themselves, but to keep starvation from them, and above that, the whole of the produce of the soil is taken by landlords who do not live in the country, because a certain measure of improvement and prosperity would necessarily have arisen from the expenditure on the soil by those enormous rents. But to make a condition miserable enough, God knows without it, still more miserable, the bulk of those who received these rents were absentee landlords; and so it happened that, speaking once again in the main, not morelj'" a fair share and incremenc of the jjroduction of the soil, but the whole produce of the soil of Ireland, with but wretched livings for those who raised it, went away from Ireland— was rather a tribute paid by Ireland to foreign countries, than legitimately applied within the land itself, and which would have occasioned the development of trade and manufactures, which would have given more employment, agriculturally as well as other- wise, and produced some mitigating circumstances at any rate to relieve the darkness of the picture to which I have referred. I say it happened there was luxury for the ABSENTEE LANDLORD, misery for the resident tenant, as the rule, and that in a country of which it has been said, not I believe hi: 13 rhetorically, but in sober truth, that if you wiped out the tenant's improvements you would convert nine-ten tha of Ireland into a desert again. I have said enough to show that the question of the land is at the core of the Irish ques- tion, and to show how great was the importance of nuy measure, such as the Irish Church Act, which should have tended even in a moderate degree to unite the diverse inter- ests of the occupant and of the land he occnpied, and to create a land proprietory in Ireland. That measure was followed within a year or two by the Land Act of 18,'0. \n Act which was, no doubt, a useful Act, and which was, probably, in effect, I have no doubt, quite as strong and sweeping a measure as the public opinion to whom I have referred, and the people of the United Kingdom would suffer to be passed at that day, but which in consequence of that public opinion not being sufficiently appreciative of the situation, was far behind what the necessities of the situation called for, and both the CHURCH AND LAND ACT were brought about, not from a sense of the need of either or both measures — were brought within the domain of practical politics, not because interested or selfish landlords or wealthy tenants had come to the conclu- sion, from some new turn of reasoning, that the con- dition of Ireland was one of injustice that required amelior- ation, but because a great gaol in the heart of London was broken open, and some policemen in Manchester were killed. That it was this that aroused England's attention to Irish affairs and rendered possible those measures of reform is beyond doubt, and again the same fatal error, and again justice and measures of propriety and prudence too long delayed, and again those lessons taught the Irish people, has borne for so many years such fatal fruits which as those to which Mr. Gladstone referred. That Land Act was useful in its way but it was not wide enough; the land clauses most hopeful in theory, which struck largely at the root of the question, turned out in practice not so useful as the land clauses with reference to the Irish Church owing to difference of condition. The truth was that in other respects the LAND LAWS OF IRELAND, as of England and Scotland wore grievously defective, and the expense of a voluntary transfer of land in small par- cels was almost prohibitory. The search for titles, and copies and conveyances and conveyancing itself were such u that whatever price you might fix for those moderate por- tions of land, ^.hich were tho utmost aspiration of the occupant would in many cases fail to meet the expenses of conveyancing. That was one difficulty with which legislo- tion'was unable to grapple. There was another, in the want of sympathy on the part of the Treasury and other depart- ments of the Government with those classes which savoured a little too much, in the then public (Opinion of the country, with a feeling of interfering with the sacred property in land — which looked a little too much towards a denial of the DIVINE RIGHT OF LANDLORDISM, wliich looked a little too much like a practical recognition ot the motto that property has its duties aw well an its rights, and it so happened in practice that there were but 160 sales a year on the average, or a total of 800, by the last return I have been able to obtain under the provisions of the land clauses of the Act of 1870. So, therefore, you will observe that the Act was wholly defective as a remedy for the evils com- plained of, and, which by experience, was proved to be wholly inadequate. Then, in 1880, the last Land Act was passed, under continual pressure, under similar pressure increased and aggravated by events ; a great measure, but in itself not likely to settle the great question. I will not discuss the complicated details of that measure ; but I will say that a measure which is based upon the ground and founded upon the reason upon which that measure depends, and which makes no provision at all for dealing with cases of ai'rears of rents — cannot be regarded as a final or satisfactory measure, if there were no other defect. If you look at the history of the ills which preceded that measure, and at the circumstances of the country, as stated by others, you will see that such a measure must be to a large extent wholly inadequate and entirely beyond practical application towards many, or most of the grievous cases that can be supposed to exist under it, unless it deals with arrears. The most grievous cases will be those of parties unable to pay their rents. However, no one can doubt but that that measure was an IMMENSE ACTIVE RELIEF, a measure that gave more than was ex- many, or thought possible to be obtained that it was pected by from the Parliament of the ' United Kingdom, and nobody can doubt that it was obtained also fi-om Parlia- ment only by continued difficulties. The state of Ireland, as it had been, was becoming more aggravated still. Things were growing worse and worse before the adoption of the I 15 last remedial measure, and the conviction at length impressed itself on the United Kingdom that something more must be done to remedy thoHe evils. But the same fatal errors which attended the agitation for the introduo- tion of the previous remedial measures, attended this. It came ec late that a large pction if the benefit, bo far as feeling was concerned, and so far as the conviction that Ireland could depend on the justice of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, that there was any pros- pects of an ending to their sufferings, that this last remedial measure had wholly lost its grace. I say it is as plain as the day thai true statesmanship pointed to earlier fiction, to action under other and different circum- stances when a measure, oven loss thorough going than this one, would have pi-oduccd ati amelioration in the condition and tenijjor of the people of this country, much greater than could bo expected from the measure brought in and carried at tb.e time, and under the circumstancoH and under the pressure which attended its being carried. That is the record of eighty years of REMEDIAL LEGISLATION FOR IRELAND. These aie the important land marks of the acts for the remedy of wrongs, and the delay of justice that have distinguished British legislation in the past eighty years. There are others, no doubt, subsidiary acts ; it did not take quite so long — I forget whether more than a couple of Parliaments — to induce the Pai'liament of the United Kingdom to pass a Sun- day closing Act, which was demanded by the unanimous voice of the Irish population, and was applicable to them only, but which did not agree with the sentiments of the British publican, and which, therefore, it was thought wrong to give to the Irish people. But, it came at last, and minor measures of this description have come to Ireland from time to time, but the large and important measures of statesman- ship which had agitated the public mind are those to which I have referred, and which have been accomplished only after the delays and under the circumstances I have briefly stated. Can anybody wonder then that there should have grown up early, and that there should continue with an ever increasing volume and urgency, aciy for A MEASURE OF HOMf! RULE. Put the question to ourselves. If we had been for eighty years in the position that these people have been in for that time ; if wo had to agitate for one generation for 1« ! Jill ono moasuro of justice, for throo-quartors ofagonoratlonfor the next moawuro, and two-thirda of a geaoratioii lor the third ; if as each of those measures had booa obLuinod, it was due not to the recognition of the justness of our cause, but to the recognition of the danger of further delay, what would have been our feelings and how earuoLitly we would have • demanded some portion of control over our affairt. But there is a darker side to the picture than that. While remedies were refiHod, force '■as at the same time constantly applied. While you iiave the miserable record of remedial Acts to which 1 have referred, you have the record of Arras Acts, Coercion Acts, Eestraint of the Press Acts, Suspension of Habeas Corpus Acts, and all those legislative moans of coercing the people passed from time to time with the utmost freedom by the same Parliament which was denying and delaying what is now admitted to have been only justice to the people. I do not mean to say that the con- duct of the Irish people — a large portion of it — under these circumstances was justifiable. Far from it, I do not mean to say that it might not have been necessary sometimes to pass these Acts. TRUE FRIENDS OP IRELAND have, from time to time, concurred in their passage, but I do mean to say that the condition of things lasting for eighty years, with such a record on its brighter side of remedial legislation and such a record on its darker side of coercive legislation, is a record that proves that the experiment of Local Government for Ireland by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, has been a disastrous failure. Besides, legislative coercion, there were other methods of coercion employed. There is an army under the guise of a constabulary, of 12,000 or 13,000 of, I suppose, the best troops in the world, the Irish Constabulary, and we have had from time to time large portions of the militaiy forces of the Empire quartered in Ireland. From time to time not less than 50,000 men — I believe to-day not less than 50,000 men of the British army are stationed in Ireland to keep the people down, and large detachments of the British fleet frequent Irish harbors for the same purpose. Whether right or wrong in this controversy it cannot be contended that the Government of Ireland for eighty years has been a Government by constitutional means, but it must be admitted that it is a Government by force. That is the lai'ge result of the whole business. Now it is acknowledged — as the hon. member for Victoria has said — freely and frankly acknowledged — that Ireland IT ■was bciufj misftovorned all thcso years. What a liumlliating condition is that which tho MOTHER'oF rAHLlAMENTS, tho mother of constitutional ficcdom thron^'hont the woi-ld, occupicH on this question. Which of us did rot feel with a pang of humiliation tho keen nhaft of I'.o vs;<'iiHt, who forged, HO 1o sjieuk, the letter from the S'dtan of Turkey, not lopg* since calling, in ropponse to some cidls (h.it had been made in England on him to remedy son e grievances of hivS Hubject'-, on tho Briti^h Government to rjinedy the condition of tho Trit^h people. Who did not feel that such a letter might have been fairly wiitten, that such a complaint might have been fairly made, and that tho argument sometimes urged in tins House of tu quoque might have been fairly used. Of these resolutions it is needless to spejik. No doubt Ireland is largely in a state of anarchy, ruled as far as tho iTingdom \h concerned, mainly by force, mainly by, so far as a large portion of tho people is concerned, an oi'ganization without and beyond the control of tho law, and I mention that it is tho delays which have taken place in their passage and the circum- stances under which these measures of pressing justice and importance have been at length gradual, which are responsible for tho distressed condition of that country. There were, for those delays, two reasons: Reformers, and I do not use the word in a party sense, or as defining wholesale the Eeform party of England, as com- pared with the Conservative party, though I might so use it — but still there have been HONORABLE EXCEPTIONS in the Conservative party — Eeformers, in the larger sense of the term, have from time to time pressed upon tho public and upon Parliament, long before these reforms were granted, their justice and necessity; but the great body of public opinion was unquestionably hostile to Ireland. By a Parliament of the United Kingdom, in which the opinion of the majority must rule — it was impos- sible, under the constitutional system, that that justice or expediency, by which the majority were not alive, could De pushed forward. 1 believe that long ago many of these measures would have been carried by far-sighted statesmen, except that thej- felt it was impossible to carry them, except that they were, as Mr. Gladstone has put it, beyond the realm of practical politics, because the aristo- cratic, the large land holding interest, the Conservative 18 interest, and matt}'' oUior iiiteroHts wore entirely loo Htron;;^ to oimblo the relatively wmull band of advanced Kcfti-rncrH free to carry them at all. In a word tho pultlie opinion of the United Kin^ifdoni did not reco<^ni/.e the importance of it, and was not Hiilttciently advanced to discharge the duties of efficiently mana<^ing Irish affiiii'8. The se.ond difficulty was the want ot time. Parliament was overweighted with its concerns, it had to deal with LARGE IMPERIAL CONCERNS, it had to deal with local concerns which were supposed to bo more pressing, and it was unequal to its tat- If. Wo know that for a great many years Parliament has been unequal to its tusk in th.it regard. We know that measures have been brought in by strong Govern- ments SesMJon after Session and have been just crushed out by the pressure of other affairs, have not been reached. It takes years as a I'ulo before that which is deemed sufficiently ripe for legislation to bo actually brought into Parliament by a Government on its responsi- bility, can reach thut stage of discussion, unless there be some extraordinary reason of urgency such as lately attended tne discussion of the Irish question. It has so happened that men have been too apt to say with reference to the large questions to which I have i-eferred, and which have been settled : " Oh, that question is not yet within the range ot practical politics," just as Mr. Gladstone said on the Irish question in 1865, and so they siy of these questions until gunpowder, murder, assassination explosions, a condition of chronic disaffection breaking out in some particular manner, brings them to the conclusion forthwith that the question is within the range of practical politics and has got to be dealt with. Now, I say that evea if Parliament could now take up what it ought long ago to have taken up, we might hope it would be dealt with, but it also was dealt with so late as to obviate all chance of its settlement being concurrent with a resolution of better feel- ing between the people of the two countries, and thus it is that I am brought to the conclusion that it is the duty of every man who entertains a strong feeling for the Empire, who entertains a feeling of pride in its glories and of shame in its failures and its faults, to do what he can in his sphere towards pressing forward this Irish question to a solution while there yet be time. Now, so long ago as 1878 the statesman to whom I referred a while ago, Mr. Gladstone, spoke in this manner, prior to the General Election which took place at that time : 19 *' In the mutter of Local Government, tliere may be a solution of some natioiiiil ami t^veii Imperial dilliciiltii'S • • * If j'oii a-' Knlc is rt-latiid to Local Government. I am fricuiliy to I?o local privileges and power, and denire. I may almost say, I intensely., desire to see Parliament relieved of some portion of its duties. I seo lilt! etlicieney of Parliament interfered wiili, not only hy obstruction frnni Irirfh uiiinliera, Itut even more grossly by the enornidus weirrjit wlii' ii i.s plai't'd upon the tinio and minds of those whom U)U have sent to represent yon. We have got an overwei^'lited Parliament, and if Ireland or any other portion of the country is desirous and alio to airanire its Mff.iir.^, that by taking the local part or part of its transactions off the Imnds uf Parliament, il can liberate and strengthen Parliament for Imperial concerns, I aay I will not only accord a reluctant assent, but I will give a generous support to any such scheme. " One limit, gentlemen, one limit only, I know to the extension of colonial Giivernment, il is thi.-j, eotliingcan be dime in my opinion by any wise state-inmn or right-ininiled Briton to weaken the authority of the Imperial Parlinnient. Hecaiise the Imperial Parliam'-nt inii,-t be Impeiia! in the three Kingdoms, nothing that creates a doubt upon that supremacy can be tolerated by any intelligent anil patiiotic man. Hut subject to that limitation if we c'nn make arrangeiuents under which Ireland, Scotlandi Wales and a jiorfion of England, can deal with qnes- tio'is iif local and special interest to ihemselve.i more effeclually than Parliament now can, that, I say, will be the attuinment of a great national good. The Scotch members who alwuys show i'.i Piirlianient — I must say, speaking of them a§ an average, and perhaps it is all the more true because the majority of them are Liberal — who always .'how in the transaction of Scotch b isiness remarkable shrewdness and efficiency, yet all lind cause to complain and complain seriously and gravely, that they cannot pet the Scotch business properly transacted. "The Parliament is over-weithted. Th-i Parliament is almost over- whelmed. If we could take off its shoulders that superfluous weight by the constitution of secondary and subordinate authorities. I am not going to be frightened out of a wise measure of this kind by being told that i am condescending to the jirejudices of the Home Rulers. I will condescend to no such prejudices. I will consent to give to Ireland upon princiide ni)thing that is not uf>on ecjnal terms offered to Scotland and to the diff-rent portions of the United Kingdom. But I say that the man who starts to devise a machinery by which some portion of the excessive and impossible task, now laid ujion the House of Commons, sball be shifted to the more free and therefore more efficient hands of secondary and local authority will confer a blessing upon this country, that will entitle him to be ranked among the prominent benefactors of the land." I think Sir, having regard to that speech, I wa.s justified in hailing the accession to power of the Liberal party, as I did in the year 1880, as giving an omen of some measure of redress for Ireland in this particular. But Sir, another speech was delivered by that same statesman, under the responsibility of office, in the Imperial House of Com- mons, not very long ago, in which ho once again recurred to this subject and said: " We attach great value,' said Mr. Gladstone, ' to the extension, perhaps I should say to the establishment — Chear, hear) — of the principles of Local Government in Ireland. We believe that one of the great evils under which Ireland labors is the want of local administra- tion, and a more central system of authority. We believe that the 2i T i gtato of Ireland never can bo satisfactory i:'.;il Iti pnoyilfi liavo acqnired and learned by tradition and practice to ext rciso those powers of Local Government wliicii were so beneficial in otiior portions of tho Kmpire. Moreover, we believe that where ilio Iiish jcoplo had the opportunity •within a limited ranffo of giving pro: f of their powers and qualities and capabilities for Local Goveruinoiit, as they have done under the Poor Law Acts anc through aomo other channtfa, they have administer- ed well. Indeed, no one can doubt that, or their perfect capacity for fluch a duty. But this is speakinff on the ouestion of purely local administration. The motion of ray honorable iriend embracea matters of wider scope. I v/ish to point out to thoe" lionorabl« gentlemen that neither they, nor so far as I know Mr. Butt tiofore them, nor so far as I know Mr. O'Connell before him, ever distimt'y explained in an intel- ligent and practical form the manner in -which the r^al knot of this question was to be untied. The principle on which they ])rofes8 to frocecd is that purely Irish matters are to bo dealt with by a jiurely rish authority, luijienal nrntters to be left to the Imperial authority of a Chamber in whi'',h Ireland is to be renresentort. Hut they huve not told us by what authority it is to be determined which matters taken one by one are Irith, and which malteiB are Imperial. Until they lay before the House a plan in which they go to the very bottom of the question, and give U3 to understand in what manner that divi^jion \i to be accomplished, the practical conaideration of this Hubject cannot really be arrived at, and I know not how auy ell'jctive judgment upon it can be pronounced- I am well convinced that neither this Parlia- ment nor any other House of (Jommong will at anytime a.saerit to any measure by which tho one i)aramount centre of authority nt'cessary for holding together in perfect unanimity and compnctneHS this groat Empire can possibly be in tho slightest degree impaired. (Ministerial and Opposition ih'^'rs.) We are entitled and bound to ask a clear and e.'rplicit explanation ns to the mode in which that vital matter is to be determined. Who is to say what purposes are Imperial? Who in to determine the circumacriptioa within which tho Irish authority is to have a final voice? Quotations have been maoo in reference to the positions of other countries — for example, Finland in relation to Russia. But this affords no practical illustration of the matter. It would be just as rational for those gentle- men to quote tho case of the Channel Islands. With regard to the Isle of Man, we have sometimes interfeied in the matter of Custom duties, but not in my recollection have we interfered in tho legislation of the Channel Islands. Ve have left it entirely to their owa authority, and we have not felt any inconvenienC'a flow from that arrangement. Thus while some development is given to the principle of Local Government without any practical inconvenience, 1 think tho oate of Finland and Russia ia not different from the case presented by Btjgland and the Channel Islands. The case of Austria and Hungary has also been cited. I fully grant that the magnitude of that case ia such that if you can, by the development of that case, show it affords a precedent for us, you certainly make out a strong case. I have heard ot the alleged and the great and paramount difliculty of this question to which I have just referred, namely, the establishmentof a dividing and a divided authority — as in the case of the Austro-Hungarian Empire — by a reference of the matter to the personal authority of the Sovereign. If that be so, am I really to understand that it is the proposal of thoae members of this House who take the view 1 am now referring to that the personal authority of a Sovereign in this country is to decide the question of what subjects are to be referred to the Parliament of Ireland and what subjects are to be referred to the Imperial Parliament of this country. If that is the doctrine held, then I say you are immediately involved in a dilemma more hopeless than any that has presented itself to you, because on the one hand the subjects are to be decided on the authority of lesponsible Ministers, or on the other hand by a personal will or whim. If the decision is to be determined on the authority of respon- sible Ministers — the responsible Ministers of Great Britain or the respon- 31 ■ibie Ministers of Ireland who are to exist under the plan that Is now propoitd (henr, hear), evidently "ou can't refer to tho responsible Ministers of Great Hritnin the jk, er of drawing a diHtinction which Involves the most vitiil, delioHle and prticlictil parts of the subject. Then, if in the hiRhest and nicest matter of Oovcrtiraent you are jfdng again to 8«t up the personal respoiirtibility of the Sovereign apart from the advice of responsible Ministers, you are at once proposinpr a rerolu- vion in this country more profouml than you need brinpj about bv th« establishment of any form of Government whatever. (Hear, hoar.) I express for myself, and I am pure for my colliMicues, that we are most favorable to the introduction of a riprhtly understood principle i' Tjocal Government in Ireland, and modt. desirous t.) promote it. For ><'> first of the purpo.-. . affairs ? The Pririio Miniritor of England nays tlio condition of Ireland is unsalisfactoiy, bocaane the Irish people have not the measure of Local Government which they ought to have, and ho Bays : " I will not give that measure of Local Government to you; I will not stir hand or foot in tho matter until tho Irish members in the House of Commons, who are in the miiioriiy, and are powerless to do anything, shall propose a measure which shall be salisfiiotory to themselves^ and that they will undertake to deal with this complicated and exacerbated question, so full of difficulties and iix the light of all the errors and circumstances of the past. It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left tho Chair. After RecGss. Mr. BLAKE. I will not enu-ago in a discussion of tho rarious hypothetical c:jsos and somewhat stiiiincd difficulties which it seems to me are dealt with in that speecli on that question, I tratdily aimit that the division power, local and federal is one of them ; but how there can h^', a difficulty in deciding how that is to be regulated and in determining how it is to bo regulated by a general Act of justice, I can- not at all see. There can be no doubt whatover that the diffi'.nilty which occurred to tho Prime ilinister on this occasion, was the view which he has entertained and expressed so freely and which is that same difficulty which has prevented justice being done to Ireland in former years and under other circumstunces ; it is the difficulty of having to deal with a recalciti-ant and inert mass of public opinion not sufficiently adv'anced to enable him to grapple with the subject. To him I believe the words of the great poet of tho adjoining republic apply when he says: " His statecraft wa^ the golden rule, His right of vote a siicred trust. Olear above threat and ridicule, All heard his challenge ' Is it just? ' " I believe that a love of justice and of generous and liberal treatment is an instinct I might say of that statesman's nature; but ho must bo sustained, his hands must be held up in order to give him the power to accomplish tho task which, though advanced in years, remains for him to do in order to crown a life spent in the service of his country. The hon. getitloman who movetanding the remarkable business tact and talent by which the Scolch businesH has been managed in Parliament, there have been great and injurious effects in the management of that business. What has been accomplished, has been accomplished by a sort of imperfect federation in that regard. We know that, in regard to all parliamentary measures, the Scotch meinbcrs have met together and agreed as to what was wanted lor the country, and what was agreed upon has been passed through Parlia- ment, unless it trenched upon the prejudices and views of others almost without debate. They have not succeeded in all things — they have not succeeded in many imjjoriant things. They have had sti-f.ng fights when questions came up which involved the interests of other parts of the United Kingdom ; but this agitation in Scot- land cannot fail to have an important influence in matur- ing public opinion on the Irish question. I maintain that the English Parliament cannot deal efficiently with these questions, that from lack of knowledge and sympathy, in consequence of being, as Mr. Gladstone has said, wholly over-weighted, it is not competent, and its incompetency has been proved and confessed by the present Premier, to deal satis."., torily with these questions. Let the British people then give to the Irish people this legitimate vent for their somewhat restless energies, and utilize them in the legiti- mate occupation of dealing with their own concerns. I have once again to trouble the House with another extract from a still later speech by Mr. Gladstone. Speaking of Parliament the hon. gentleman said: " Sir, this a subject on which I have very distinct and clear opinions, "which I have never scrupled to decl'ire. They are mU shared by many f;enlleraen ; probably in this House th'^y may be coaaidered of a specu- ative character, and it is highly unlikely that I ^^hall ever be called upon to take a practical part in any matter relating to these opinions, but I have the very strongest opininns, up jn the advantages of Local Government, and I have the strongest objections to the tendency which I see constantly prevailing to centralization. Not for Ireland merely, but for England, I would take and profess it >A all points a cardinal rule of policy, ^o far as I can with safety to the general structure of the Empire, to d. ^ntralise Parliament We believe that the institution of secondary and local authoriti'^s in a country is a great source of strength, and th 't in principle the only necessary limit to these powers is an adequate and necessary provision for the supremacy of the central authority. (Hear, hear ) I believe that when the demand is made from Ireland for bringing purely Irish affairs more specially or more largely under Irish control outside the walls of Parliament the wise way to meet thut demand will not be the mf^thod recommended by the member for the University of Dublin, who, if I understood 1 i aright, said that anything recognising purely Irish control for purelj' Irisi affairs must be necessarily a step towards separation, and must therefi>re be fraught with danger. (Opposition cheers ) That I do not believe to be either a ■wise or a just method of dealing with that demand. In my opinion the wise and the just method is to req lire that before any such plan can be (dealt with or can be examined with the view of beiug dealt with on its merits, we must ask those who propose it ; and this is the question I have invariably put — " What are the provisions which you propose to make for the supremacy of Parliament." That has been my course, and that is the course I entend to pursue. I am bound to say I have not received an answer to that question. 1 have never heard in the time of Mr. Butt or from the mouth of any other gentleman any adequate or satisfactory explanation upon that subject. To this declaration I have only one limitation more to add, and thai is I am not prepared to gi^e to Ireland anything which in point of principle it would be wrong to give to Scotland if Scotland ask for it. (Home Rule cheers.) That is, 1 apprehend, what Irish members, those members of the most popular classes, will be ready to accept, (Cheers) The right .ton. gentleman was determined to make out that these declarations on my part were a formidable novelty and he said he believed that I had in Mid-Lothian — the scene of so many misdeeds — (laughter) — and likewise at the Guild- hall, which might have been considered a mora consecrated precinct — delivered opinions of this kind. WaW, I cannot recall all the speeches I have delivered on the subject, but I have taken the pains to recall six ot them — (laughter) — which seems to me a very tolerable allowance. One was made in 1872 at Aberdeen, •when I was Prime Minister. The next was in 1879 in Mid-Lothian, and another was made in' the Guildhall in 1881. But the three speechea made out of Parliament were balanced by three made in Parliament, for in 1872 as Prime Minister I made a reply to Mr. Butt precisely in the same spirit of the declarations I have now made, and in the spirit of the sentences f uttered last week, I did the same in 1874, when I wa;^ not Prime Minister, but leader of the Opposition, and I did the same thing in 1880, when I sat on these benches as an independent member. Perhaps I may be allowed to read a few words of that speech. My hon. friend the member for Cork (Mr. Shaw), in the beginning of 1880, on the 27th of February, made a remarkable speech upon this question. He made a proposition which I could not accept any more than I could accept the proposition of my hon. friend the member for Tipperary (Mr. P.J. Smyth) tiie other night,and, professing himself an tidvocate of what I think he termed Home Rule, argued for it and pleaded .*^or it in a spirit I own won my sympathy and regard, and I did not hesitate, as I do not which now, to use these words. (The hon. gentlemen then quoted the words in which he snid that from the tone of the hon. mem tier's remarks, if the relations between England and Ireland were to become satisfacto- ry, theraost important contribution to that essential end would have been made by Mr.Shaw.) That was the spirit in which I received the declara- tion made by the hon. member as leader, for he then was leader of the party from Ireland, and every one of the speeches to which I have refer- red is, I believe, in complete and exact couforniity with the brief oat- line of my opinions upon this question,'* Now, Sir, I have read that npoech for two or three reasons. First of all, because yon will observe that the hori. the Prime Minister, after an interval of reflection, comment and criticism reiterates the demand as an essential condition preliminary to any action on thi^^ subject, that a satisfac- tory solution of all these difficulties should be propounded by those who ask for it on the Home Rale benches. There- fore we find the suggestion that it stand until a day which may never come. Secondly, there is a declaration which he says he has made for ten years, and therefore we find no advance in his views upon this question. Lastly, and most importantly, we find him using these same fatal words with which Irish questions, as I have proved, have been always postponed until the day of gaece and utDity 25 ■were passed. This is a practical question. T do not expect to be called upon to deal with it. I care nothing for these speculations. I say it is a practical, a burning ques- tion. It is the most practical and burning question wo can conceive, and when the Mininter has stated that the results are not satisfactory rs they stand, that there ought to be a change, that there ought to be a grant of local rights and privileges, that justice demands it, and that it cannot be expected that they will be satisfied if the Parliament of the Uniled Kingdom does not discharge that duly, justice demands that those who have the power and the respon- sibility should propound that legislation. Now, Sir, Icome to the consideration of another branch of this question, and that is \v' 3ther wo have any interest in this question calling upon us to interfere in it, and I deal with that branch of the question now, partly because the hon, gentleman has alluded to it, and partly because it is not the first occasion on which a great Irish question ha.'^ come under the consideration of this House and has been ti catod bj' this House in one way or another. I alluded a while ago to the question of the disestablishment of the Irish Church as one of vast importance both in its direct and indirect relations to the condition of Ireland, and it happened that while that question was under debate a late re.'-pected member of this House, the hon. Mr. Holton, seconded by Mr. Mackenzie, moved on the Slst of May, 1869 : "That this House will immediately resolve itself into a Committee to consider the following proposed resolutions:— "1. That in the opinion of this House the measure now pending; before the Imperial Parliament for the disestablishment ami disenrtow- ment of the Irish Uhurch will, if it becomes law, by the removal of one of the chief causes of the deeply rooted discontents which have long existed among a numerous body of Her Majesty's subjects, promote the tranquility, increase the prosperity and add unmeasurably to the strength as well as the just renown of the great Empire of which this Dominion forms no inconsiderable part. "2. That this opinion is strengthened and supported by the recent e';