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L 1 , 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 ^*, l.CpA4'S0 ^93 » ■ " — V REPORT VKOM TIIIC # SELECT COMMITTEE ON THi: 1 : 1 CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF .t CANADA. ■PPM Ordered, hif The llouite oC (Joiimions, lo he Printed, a Julif 182H. « \ .V'y. A 'I ^:i7'M?o ^. •*> ', '• 1 THE REPORT - - MINUTES OF EVIDENCE APPENDIX - - P- 3 - 15 - 323 RETORT. .*•■ THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into tbe State of the Civil Government of Catiada, as established by the Act 31 Geo. III. and to report their Observations thereupon to The House ; and to whom several Petitions for an alteration in the present Government were referred; — ■ — Have examined the Matters to them referred^ and agreed to the following REPORT: YOUR Committee began their investigation into the State of the Civil Government of Canada, by examining the several Petitions from the Inhabitants of the two Provinces, which had been referred to them by the House. The Petitions from the Townships of the Lower Province, signed by above 10,000 persons, complain of the want of Courts within their own limits, and of the administration of French Law in the French Language ; that they are without Representation in the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, and that Emigrants of British origin have been deterred from settling in the Province ; and, finally, they pray that a legislative Union may take place between Upper and Lower Canada. Your Committee then proceeded to examine the Petition signed by about 87,000 Inhabitants of Lower Canada, resident within the Seigneuries, who complain of arbitrary conduct on the part of the Governor of the Province ; of his having applied Public Money without legal appropriation ; of violent prorogations and dissolutions of the Provincial Parliament} and of his having prevented the passing of many useful Acts, which they enumerate. They complain also, that a Receiver-General had been maintained in the exercise of his functions for some years after his insolvency was known to the Government ; that similar abuses had prevailed witli respect to the office of Sheriff. And it is further stated, that tlie rights of the Petitioners had been injured by Acts of the Imperial Parliament, particularly by the Canada Trade Act, and the Act passed in the Sixth year of His Majesty's reign, c. 59, affecting the Tenures of Land. For a further knowledge of the grievances complained of, your Committee beg leave to refer to the Petitions, which will be found in the Appendix. Before Your Committee proceed to explain^ or to discuss these important subjects, they think it their duty to state that Petitions from the Province of Upper Canada were also referred to their consideration ; the prayer of which Petitions is, tliat the Proceeds arising from the sale of certain Lands, set apart for a Protestant Clergy, may not be applied solely to the use of the Clergy 569. AS of i rr- 4 RKl'ORT I'ltOM THE SELECT COMMITTEE of the Cliiircli of England, (the udliercnts to which througlioiit the Proviiicr they state, in contradiction to tlie representations of Archdeacon Strachan, to be comparatively few in number), but tiiat they may be applied to tiie main- tenance of Protestant Clergymen ol' other denominations, and to the purpose? of general Education. As these Petitions appear to comprehend the most material subjects that have of late agitated the Provinces of Upper and Lower ("anada. Your Com- mittee thought the best course they could pursue was to examine witnesses as to each Petition in succession ; and in communicating to the House the '% information thej have received, and the opinions they have b jcn induced to ' form as to the Civil Government of Canada, they will treat of the different subjects, as much as possible, in the order in which they were investigated. Your Committee pmceedeil to examine into the system of Law established in Lower Canada, to which their attention was particularly drawn by the Petition from the Townships. Your Committee have examined evidence in great detail on this subject; from which they collect, that uncertainty has long existed on points of law relating to the Teniin* of Ileal Pro|)erty in that portion of the Province. It appears that shortly after the cession of the Province, the King of England, in a Proclamation dated the 7th of October 17<>'^, (which will be ibund in the Appendix,) declared, amongst other things, that " all the Inhabitants of the Province, and all others resorting to it, might confide in His Royal protection for enjoying the benefit of the Laws of England ;" and he announced that he had " feven com- mands for the erection of Courts of Judicature, with an appeal to His Majesty in Council." In the year 1771' the first Act of Parliament was passed, making provision for the better government of this part of the British dominions. By this Act the English Criminal Law was preserved. But it was enacted, " that in all matters of controversy relative to property and civil rights, resort shoidd be had to tiie Laws of Canada as the rule and decision of the same ; and all causes that should tiiereafter be established in every Court of Justice, to be appointed within the Province, should, with respect to such property and rights, be determined agreeably to the said Laws and Customs of Canada." There is, however, one marked exception to this concession of the French Law, namely, " that it should not apply to Lands which had been or should be granted in free and common soccage." AfVer an interval of seventeen years this Act was followetl by the Constitu- tional Act of 1791. The provisions of this important Act have no bearing upon the subject under our consideration, excepting that it provides, with respoct to Lower Canada, that Lands shall be granted in free and common soccagc, if so desired: and further, that such Grants shall be subject to such alteration as to the iiatiuc and consequences of Soccage Temue as may be made by the Provincial Legislature, and with His Majesty's approbation and assent ; but no .:uch alteration has been made. On examining into the application of thos j provisions in the Province, it appears not only that doubts have existed 1 5 to the true interpretation of them, but that the general practice of the Colony has been to convey real property within the Townships according to the Canadian forms, and that it lias descended and been subject to the incidents of that law. In the year 182fi the British Parliament passed an Act, which put its own interpretation of these Statutes beyond the reach of further dispute. This Act, commonly called the Canada Tenure Act, declared that the law of England was the rule I ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OE CANADA. 5 rule hy which real property within the Town»hipt w«i» to l»e I reafler regu- lated and administered. In ottering uiiy rt'CMninuMulationH on points of ho mucli ditticulty and importance, Your Coniinittve are t\illy aware of the dis- advantages under which they labour, and of their inability, from their want of sutticient technical and local infurniationi to enter tor any useful purpose into minute and intricate details. They do not however decline to otfcr as their opinion, that it would be advantageouH that the declaratory enactment in the Tenures Act, respecting lands held in i'Tva or conunon soccage, should be retained ; that mortgages should be specinl, and that in proceedings for the conveyance of land the simplest and least iix|>etisive forms of conveyance should be adopted, upon the principles of the law of England, that form which prevails in Upper Canada being probably, under all circumstances, the best which could be selected ; that a ivgistrntioit of dectls relating to soccage lands should be established as in Upper C7unada. Your Committee are further of opinion, that means should be found of bringing into ctiective operation the clause in the Teniu'es Act which pro- vides for tht mutation of tenure, ami they entertuiii no iloubt of the inex- pcdiency of retaining the scigneurial rights of the Crown, in the hope of deriving a protit from them. Tlie sacriti( e on the part of tlio Crown woidd be trifling, and would bear no proportion to the benefit that would result to the Colony from such a concession. In addition to these recommendations it appears to be desirable, that some competent jurisdiction should be established to try and decide causes arising out of this description of property, and that Circuit Courts should be insti- tuted witliin the Townships for the same purposes, The Committee cannot too strongly express their opinion, that the Cana- dians of French extraction should in no degree be disturbed in the peaceful enjoyment of their religion, laws and privileges, as secured to them by the British Acts of Parliament ; and so tiu' from requiring them to hold lands on the British tenure, they think that when the lan»ls in the Scigneuries are fully occupied, if the descendants of the original settlers shall still retain their preference to the tenure of Fie/ ci Sci^ni'io'it; they see no objection to other portions of unoccupied lands in that Province being granted to them on that tenure, provided that such lands are apart from, and not intermixed with, the Townships. Your Committee are now desirous of adverting to the Representative System of Lower Canada, with respect to which all parties seem to agree that some change siioidd take place ; to this branch of their inquiry they are desirous of recalling to the recollection of the House, that inuler the provisions of the Act of 1791. the division of the Province, for the purpose of exercising the elective franchise, was entrusted to the (Jovernor ; and it appears that Sir Alured Clarke took the numerical amount of the population as the sole basis on which his calculations were formed, and divided into coimtie? as much land as was foimd to contain a given number of inhabitants ; on the thickly- peopled banks of the Saint Lawrence a small district was found to suffice, while in the more distant parts vast territories were comprehended in one county, in order to obtain the required amount of population ; thus it hap- pens that the counties of Kent, Surrey, Montreal, Leinster and Warwick, do not, altogether, equal in extent the single comity of Buckinghamshire; the small counties too are composed wholly of lands hoKlen as Seigneuries. A Bill actually passed the Assembly, the object of which was to increase the numbers of the Representative Assembly. This Bill did not become a law; and it appears to have been founded upon the same principle, and to have 509. A 3 involved \ ' 6 REPORT FROM THK SEl.KCT ("OMMiriKK i f involvcil the vurne error, hh the orighml urriuigeiiiitnl. hy Sii AhiicMl (!larke. It hus heeii stated l>y one of the witiumHeN, that iiiiiUnge(l to the Jesuits, Your Committee lament tliat they have not more full information ; hut it uppears tu tiiem tu be ilesiruble that the proeeeds should be applied to the purposes of general education. One of the nu)st important subjects to which tiieir incpiiries have been directed has been the state of the Legislative Councils in both tlie Canadas, and the manner in wliicii these Assemblies have answered the purposes for which they were in.stitutcd. Your ('ommittee strongly recommend, that a more independent cliaracter ahoidd be given to these bodies ; that tlie majority of their Members siu)uld not consist of persons holding offices at the pleasure of tlie Crown ; unil tliat any other measures tliut may tend to connect more intimately this branch of the constitution with the interest of the Colonies woidd l)e attemled with the greatest ailvaiitage. With respect to the Judges, with the exception only of the Chief Justice, whose presence on particular occasi;>ns mij"it be necessary. Your Committee entertain no doubt that they liad better not be involved in the political business of the House. Upon similar grounds it a])pears to Your Coimnittee, that it is not desirable tliat Judges shoidd hold seals in tiie Executive Council. Your Conunittee are desirous of recording the principle which, in their judgment, should be applied to any alterations in the constitution of the Canadas, which were imparteil to them under the formal Act of the British Legislature of 17UL That principle is to limit the alterations which it may be desirable to make by any future British Act, as far us possible, to such points as, from the relation between the mother country and the Canadas, can oidy be disposed of by the paramotmt authority of the British Legis- hiture ; and tliey are ot" opinion that all other changes should, if possible, be carried into eft'ect by the local Legislatures tliemsclves, in junicable communication with the local (iovernment. Upon the great (piestion of the Union of the two Canadas, Your Com- mittee have received nuicli evidence, to which they desire to call the atten- tion of the House. With reference to tiie state of public feeling that appears to prevail in these Colonies cm this momentous suiyect. Your Committee are not prepared, under present circumstances, to recommend that measure. Yoiu" Committee nevertheless think it highly desirable that some satis- factory arrangement, (and ii' possible one of a permanent nature,) should be effected between the two Canadas with regard to the impositicm and distri* bution of tlie Customs collected in the St. Lawrence. They trust, however, when the heats which so unfortunately exist shall have subsided, that such an arrangement may be amicably effected. It now remains for us to l. . i ' • i • v.i;i i. 5,G39 acre^i arc granted on leases, the terms of which are, that for every lot of fiOO aeri s 8 bushels of wheat, or '^,1 s. per anniun, shall be paid for tin- rirst seven years ; Hi bushels, or 50s, per annum, shall be paid for the next seven years ; and 24 bushels, or "jrj.s. per annum, for the last seven years. Under these circumstances the nominal rent of the Clergy Reserves is £.030 per annimi. The actual receipt
appears to them to be worthy of more careful investigation than it is in their power to give to it ; but in this or in some such mode they are fully persuaded the lands thus reserved ought without delay to be permanently disposed of. To a property at once so large aiul so luiproductive, it appears that there are nimierous claimants. The Act of 1791 directs tliat the profits arising from this source shall be applied to a Prostestant Clergy ; doubts have arisen wlicther the Act requires the Government to confine them to the use of tlie Church of England only, or to allow the Church of Scotland to participate in them. The law officers of the Crown have given an opinion in favour of the rights of the Church of Scotland to such participation, in which Your Committee entirely concur ; but the question has also been raised, whether the clergy of every denomi- nation of Christians, except Roman Catholics, may not be included ; it is not lor your Committee to express an opinion on the exact meaning which the words of the Act legally convey. They entertain no doubt, however, that the intention of those persons who brought forward the measure in Parliament was to endow with parsonage houses and glebe lands the clergy of the Church of England, at the discretion of the local (Jovernment ; but with H'spcit to iIk (lislribution of the proceeds of the reserved lands generally, they I ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 11 they are of opinion tliat they sought to reserve to the Government the right to apply the money, if they so tliought fit, to any Protestant Clergy. The Committee see little reason to hope that tlie annual income tp be derived from this soiuce is likely, within any time to which they can look forward, to amount to a sufficient sum to provide for the Protestant Clergy of these Provinces ; but they venture to press the early consideration of this subject on His Majesty's Government, with a view to an adjustment that may be satisfactory to the Province, of the principle on which the proceeds from these lands are hei eafler to be applied ; and in deciding on the just and prudent application of these funds, the Government will necessarily be influenced by the state of the population, as to religious opinions, at the period when the decision is to be taken. At present it is certain that the adherents of the Church of England constitute but a small minority in the Province of the Upper Canada. On the part of the Scotch Church, claims have been strongly urged on account of its establishment in tiie empire, and from tlin mmibers of its adherents in the Province. With regard to the other religious sects, the Committee have found much difficulty in ascertaining the exact numerical proportions which they bear one to the other ; but the evidence has led them to believe, that neither the adherents of the Church of England nor those of the Church of Scotland form the most numerous religious body within the Province of Upper Canada. The attention of the Committee having been drawn to the establishment of the University of King's College, at York, in Upper Canada, they thought it their duty to examine the charter granted to that college ; that charter w.is granted under the great seal, and it is to be observed, that it does not impose on the students an obligation to subscribe to the Thirty-nine Articles, which was done in the case of tlic other North Anieiican Colhgos. Your Committee find it provided, amongst other arrangements, ibr the conduct and government of this institution, that the Archdeacon of York for the time being shall, by virtue of his office, at all times be President of the said College. It is further ordained, that there shall be within the said College or Cor- poration a Council, to be called and known by the name of the College Coiuicil, which shall consist of the Chancellor, the President, and of seven Professors in Arts and Faculties of the said College ; and that such said Professors shall be members of the Estublisiied Church of England and Ireland, and shall, previously to their admission, sign and subscribe the Thirty-nine Articles of religion. To this Couiuil tlie whole government of the College is confided. Of the great advantage which the estabiishment of a college for the purposes of general cihication in Upper (Amaila is likely to confer upon the Province, Your Coniniiltee entertain the strongest con- viction ; they lament only that the institntioii should be so constituted as materially to diminisii the extent to which it might be useful. It cainiot, they thhik, be doubted, as tlie guidance and government of the College is to be vested in the hands of the iiieml)ers of tlie (lunch of Eng. land, that in tlie election of Professors a pieftieiuH' would inevitably be shown to persons of that persuasion ; and in a country where only a small proportion of the inhabitants adhere to tiiat cluuch, a sus|iicioii and jialousy of religious intertereuce would necessarily be created. For these and otiier reasons the (.loiuniittee are desirous of stutiui; llieir o))iui()ii, that great benefit would accrue to the Provin'e by rh;ingin!>- the constitution of tills bodv. Thi-y think that two Theological Prolessors should ■'><>!). B'i be li RKl»()UT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE i i*J \ he OHtnbliihed, one of the Church of England and another of the Church of H(-()tlaml, (whoHC lectures the respective candidates for holy orders should be roqiiircd to attend); but that with respect to the President, Professors, nnti all otherit connected with the College, no religious test whatever sliould bo rci|iiirod. That ill the selection of Professors no rule should be followed, ami no other object sought than the nomination of the most learned and discreet perNonN ( and that (with exception of the Theological Professors) they should bu ri'(|nircd to sign a declaration, that, as far as it was necessary for them to advert in their lectures to religious subjects, they woidd distinctly recog- nize the truth of the Christian Revelation, but would abstain altogether lion) inculcating particular doctrines. Though Yoiu' Committee have now disposed of the most important sub- jects of their in(|niry, they are aware that on an examination of the Petitions, and of the Evidence, many other matters will appear entitled to consi- dei'utitm. The ('oinnuttee think it necessary also to observe, that the evidence from Upper Cannda luib not been equally ample and satisfactory with that which tlu'y have had the advantage of receiving from the I^ower Provinces. Your Cominiftee, however, are desirous of directing the attention of Governnieirt to the Sedition Act, (should it not be found to have expired,) the repeal of which ajipears to have been long the object of the efforts of the House of Assembly of Upper Canada. YoiU" (Jonunittee also beg leave *q call the particular attention of the (iovennnenl to the mode in which Jirries are composed in the Canadas, with n \ iew to remedy any defects that may be found to exist in the present Nytein. Your Conunittec lament that the late jjcnod of the Session in which they were appointed has rendered a mimite investigation into all parts of the subject snbinilted to their inquiry impossible. They believe too, that if the Legisliitive Assemblies, and the Executive Government of Canada, can be put on a right footing, that means will be found within the Province of rc'nu'dyui;j; all minor grievances. Tiiey are disposed nevertheless to recom^ mend that the prayer of the Lortcr CanacHans for permission to appoint aa ngeiit ill the same manner as agents are appointed by other colonies which poHsers local K-gislatures, should be granted, and that a similar privilege sh (iild be extended to Upper Canada, if that Colony should desire it. At an early period of tlieir investigation, Your Coiimiittee perceived that their attention iiiiiKt be directed to two distinct brandies of inquiry : — 1st. To what degree the embarrassments and discontents which have long prevailed in the Canadas, had arisen from defects in the system of laws and tile ((HislitutiDns eslai)lished in these Colonies. — '^d. How tar those evils were to be attributed to the manner in which the existing system has been adininiHtered. Y.inr CommiMee have clearly expressed their opinioi hat serious defects were to be tbiind in that system, and have ventured to suggest several alterations that have a))peared to them to be necessary or convenient. They also I'lilly admit that (Vom these, as well as from other ciicuinsfances, the t.lt45 The Rev. John Ue, D. D. - 288 Jovis, ij° ilie June 1828. Martis, I'die Juhi 1828. Austin Cuvillier, Esq. - - - '57 The Rev. Robert Alder 2l>l Sabbati, 14" die June 1828. The RigJit Hon. R. J. W. Horton - ■^95 The Rev. Croibie Morgetl Lord Viscount Sandon 172 180 Martis, i^'dic Julii 1828. Austii Cuvillier, Esij. - - - ibid. John NeihoH, Eb(|. - - . 313 ON THE CIVIL (;()VKItNMENT OF CANADA. 15 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. •J75 •21,1 ,T3 Jovh, B* (lit May, 1828. Th(j Right Honourable : THOMAS FRANKLAND LEWIS, IN TIIK CIIAIll. Samuel Gale, En(|. culled in ; and Examined. WHAT acquaintance have you with Canada ?— I have resided there almost from infancy. Arc you a native of England ?~-I am not ; I am a native of St Augustine in East Florida. Have you held any public uitUBtionN in Canada?— I have. fie BO good as to state what they ur«! ?— Chairman of the Quarter Sessions for (he city and district of Montreal. Describe the nature of that Nituation ; by whom were you appointed ? — The (iovcrnor-in-chief. Is any salary annexed to it f— -There ii*. Have you ever held any other public Mituution in that country? — I think not. I was unce indeed, by some communications not under seal, requested to act as II Commissioner relating to the boundary lines between Upper and Lower Canada ; there had been some dift'erence with respect to these boundary lines, and I was written to to act as Commissioner. Arc you a proprietor in Canada P-^l um ; 1 have lands both in the seigneuries and in the townships. Then you are acquainted with the diviiiion of Cunnda, with a view to the repre- sentation in the Lower House of Assembly?— 1 am. Can you state what is the proportion of persons having a right to vote residing ill the seigneuries, as compared with thone who reside in the townships? — It would lie impossible for me to annwer that question. 1 can only state, that the condition which entitles personit to vote by the statute is being possessed, for their own use and benefit, of a dwelling-house and lot of ground in the town or township, of the yearly value of ^l, uterling; or being possessed of lands in free- hold, or in fief, or in roturc, of the yearly value of 40*. sterling, or upwards. How many individuals there may be of that description in the province I can linrdly take upon me to say, , What is the greatest number you have ever known polled at any election that has come under your observation ?"'l'hat again is a matter to which I have very little attended, and could scarcely take upon nie to answer ; I believe there is a great difference in the number of electors in different places; in some places, more than 3,000 votes have been given ; in other places, such as Sorrell and Three Rivers, only a few liundredH. Is not the town ut which the election is held in the counties generally within the seigneuries? — I do not know any instance where it is ngt in the seigneuries. And near of course to the lliver Mt, Lawrence? -tienerally near the River .St. Lawrence; there are some of the places in the scignenrics that are more or less distant from the St. Lawrence. l)o the voters residing in the townNhips generally attend the elections? — They do not generally attend at the electioiiM, What prevents their attendance ? The distance at which they are from the places oi election ; the difficulty of communication from the bad state of the roads, which would require roost of the inhabitants of the townships voting at llic clcttions to take a journey of three clays, going and returning ; and very few .Vii). 1) 4 indeed Samutl Oalt, Eiq. 8 Muy 1838. 1 I ft h! Samuel Gale, I'.sq. 8 May iKiS. iti MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE indeed would feel inclined to take such a journey, when they would of course find such numbers of other voters present as would render whatever vote they nii^iht have to give perfectly unavailing. What other voters ? — Voters in the seigneuries ; there are a variety of reasons why they would not travel from their residences in the townships to vote at the places of election ; the expense 's a very obvious one, the diiHculty oi communi- cation is another, and the inutility of the vote when given would be a third reason. You have stated as one reason the bad state of the roads ; is there any par- ticular reason why roads arc not made from the townships in the seigneuries to the towns where the elections are held ? — The chief cause why the roads are not better is, I believe, the inadequacy of tlie laws regarding communications; the laws were made so as to adapt themselves, I believe, to the making of roads iit the seigneuries, where the lands arc conceded in a particular mode; those laws, although they might perhaps answer with respect to the seigneuries (that is, answer better at any rate than they would with regard to the townships,) are quite insufficient with respect to the townships ; they oblige every individual in the seigneuries to make a road along the front of his land. The land is gene- rally divided into lots of three acres in front; the original object was, that each individual proprietor might have a front upon the river. The lots run back generally to the distance of about 30 acres or a mile, so that each individual proprietor of a lot in the seigneuries may have his road to make along a front of three acres, but in the townships the lots are laid out very differently, and there are reserves between the different lots; so that it must be perfectly evident, that laws obliging a person to make roads upon the front of their lands, could never answer to establish communications between one part of the country and another in the townships. Have any attempts been made by the Legislature to improve the system of making roads in the townships? — There were nearly, I believe, 2.'; years passed Mithout more than perhaps 1,000/. being given towards making roads; from the first period when the Constitution was established in 1791 to 181,';, I believe that there was not more than 1,000/. laid out upon roads generally to make com- munications. In 1815 and in 1817, 1 believe, considerable sums of money were voted for the improvement of internal communications; since that period, for the last ten years, I think, tlicre have not been more than about 3,000/. devoted to that purpose, or authorized to be so employed. You say that the laws might do pretty well for the seigneuries ; are good roads made under those laws in the seigneuries?- -An Englishman certainly would consider them very bad. A; .. tbey practicable roads ? — They arc pruciicablc roads. Is not there a system of road-making in the seigneuries, conducted under the .system of law that prevails tlicre by an officer appointed, called the grand voyer for the administration of the roads in the seigneuries? —The person who lays out the roads is the grand voyer ; there is a grand voyer in each district. Can any road be made without his authority ? — Not legally established in the country. Does his authority extend to the townships? — It does. How is he appointed ? — Those otHcers are apponited by the Governor. Has he the power of preserving the road when it is made ? — There are persons, sous-voyers and others, appointed to superintend ; the <;raiid voyer makes his proces verbal to establish the roads ; this proces verbal is laid before the court of quarter sessions, and there it is either confirmed or rejected. However, it is generally confirmed, ina-smuch as the court considers it.seif only entitled to reject when the forms of the law are not complied with ; they consider that the grand voyer is almost exclusively vested with the right of determining as to the expe- diency or inexpediency of the road. Wlen he has determined upon the expediency of forming a new road, in what manner are the funds obtained, first in the seigneuries, and secondly out of the seigneuries, in the townships? — The grand voyer orders each individual pro- prietor to contribute so many days work, or such a proportion of labour ; (or to make bridges, when it shall be required to make bridges). The individuals arc pointed out in the proces verbal who arc to be held liable to make and keep in repair llie load'i and bridne.<. . An- iHl j^aaajtt«sssi*ffl«fe«s«asaiw^^ \i/. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. [ .--tf t7 the Are any funds assigned for the purpose ? — No funds are assigned ; it is done by the proprietors, who work in the proportions that he orders. Both in the seigneurles and in the townships ? — Both in the seigneuries and in ^ tlie townships the work is done in the proportions ordered by the grand voyer. Is that proportion according to the extent of tlie individual property through which the road is to go ? —The grand voyer, doubtless, in the | ;i.:'forniance of his duty, endeavours to make each contribute to the road in proportion as he shall benefit from it. Do you mean to say that the authority of the grand voyer is absolute over the proportion that each person is to contribute to the expense of the road ? — It may be considered that much is lef^ to his discretion. Does lie act under any law ?— He acts under a law, but the law does not always point out what labour he shall oblige each individual to perform, further than that it shall be done as equitably as possible, in reference to the degree of benefit that the person shall receive from the road and his extent of ground. Does this system of the grand voyers give satisfaction in the province? — I be- lieve that the system is satisfactory enough in the seigneuries, but it is not satis- factory, if I may judge from what I have heard, through the townships. You say considerable sums of money were voted in 1816 and 1817; do j'ou know the amount of those sums ? — I believe, by reference to a paper, 1 shall be able to state that. It was between 8,000/. and 9,000/. in 1815, and about 55,000/. in 1817. Is it a system that occasions complaints on the part of the townships ?— It does, undoubtedly. To what purposes were the sums that were voted in certain years appropriated, and what rendered them necessary, inasmuch as it appears that the people them- selves have to make the roads ? — Their labour in various parts of the country would not have been sufhcient, owing to the distance of the settlements, the length of the roads, and other causes. The assistance that the Legislature gave might, in a trilling degree, be intended to sup|)ly that deficiency. But the money I believe was chiefly expended u|)on roads in the .seigneuries. It was injudiciously appro- priated for local, rather than for general purposes, for towns and old settled places rather than for new settlements. Why is this system satisfactory in the seigniniries, and not in the townships? — The power of the grand voyer, and the mode oi obliging the proprietors to labour, was one tlint was better adapted to the seionouvies, owing to tlio mode of conceding the lands in llic seigneuries, than it wnn in t!ie townships, owing to t!ie manner in which tlie township lands were laid out. Vou mean that the proportion of lul)our pressed more heavily upon the town^ .ships, from their being of greater extent and width ? — The proportion of labour undoubtedly did press heavier in that way, but it pressed heavier for other rea.sons ; the roads, instead of going along the line of ranges in the townships, were obliged to traverse the lots very frequently diagonally and to cross reservts. There is this that may be said, however, the seigneuries are more comumnly level ; the roads therefore may be made in a given direction with more facility ; and they follow the concession lines, which are straight lines generally, without much inconvenience. The face of the country in the townships is quite different ; there it is diversified by lakes and mountains and falls, and it is not possible for a road to be made along the line of ranges. As far as my ob.servation has extended, I do not know any township in which it would be practicable ; therefore that system which would answer in a level country, where a road may be made without deviation, will not answer in a country which does not admit of roads being so made, and where the roads are to traverse either lengthways or diagonally the lots. In point of fact, is the want of roads in the townships, and the wish to obtain a difl'erent mode of laying out roads and forming other communications, one of the grievances of the townships which have been brought before the Legislature, and not attended tor — i bdlieve that it is one of those grievances. I have not attended the Assembly myself, and can therefore only speak from information ; but I understand it to be ihe case. Have petitions ever been forwarded to Parliament upon the subject? — I believe so ; I have luen so informed. By your answers it would seem that the roads in general run parallel with the viviT; is tliitt so ?— The roads along the river generally follow the course pf the Samuel dale, Efq. 8 .M.iy i8a8. i f ( nnr •)"<)• (' river, Samuef Gak, 8 May i8a8. ii IP { I 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMIITEE river, and the roads along the subsequent concessions penerally run in a straight line. In a line at right angles with the river ? — Not at right angles with the river always. Do you recollect any instance of an appeal from the decision of a grand voyer; how does he proceed ? — As I said before, the grand voyer makes his order with respect to every new road ; this order, which is called a proces verbal, is presented to the court of Quarter Sessions to be confirmed, it is very often opposed in the court of Quarter Sessions, but it is almost universally confirmed there, notwithstanding any opposition made to it, unless there has been some defect of form. The law requires certain formalities to be observed, such as that upon a petition presented to him the grand voyer shall cause a notice to be given at the church door, after divine service, that ne will come to the place, and requiring all persons interested in the road to give him their advice or opinion with respect to the making the road ; if there should be any want of attention to these formalities, and some others required by law, then the court would reject the proces verbal, which would obli<»e the grand voyer to do it over ajjain with those formalities ; but if the objection raised by the party opposing should be as to the expediency and justice of the roads, and the apportionment, the court would rarely venture tu dismiss on those accounts, because the grand voyer is considered the judge of those matters. Appeals have sometimes been made from the court of Quarter Sessions to the court of King's Hencli, and tlie court of King's Bench have held the same doctrines as to the authority vested in the grand voyer. Then the inhabitants of the townships consider themselves in no other way aggrieved by the present state of the law, with regard to roads in Lower Canada, than what necessarily arises from the inconvenient manner in which the En;!lish townships are laid out?— I cannot say that those are the only complaints 1 have heard. In what manner do the inhabitants of the English townships consider that they have been unfairly used by the I.egislature with regard to the roads in Lower Canada ( — They consider that the legislature ought to have made provisions better adapted to the situation of the townships than the law which already exists. They also consider that it would have been perfectly fair for the Legislature to have caused money to be laid out in making those communications, and after they were made, in causing, while it should be necessary, some outlay to keep them up, till the in- habitants were enabled to do it. Are the Committee to understand from what you have stated that it is more difficult to keep up good roads and good communications in the way in which the townships are laid out, thai it is in the way in which the seigneuries are laid out ? — It is far more difficult to get the roads originally made, as well as to keep them up. You said that the Legislature, till 1817, had liberally provided for the roads of the province, and that since that lime they have been inadequately provided for ? — What I said was, that there had been no provision that I recollected, except about 1,000/., during the space of 25 years, from 1791 to 1815 ; then in 181.5 and 1817 therftwerc considerable sums, by an^act of the Legislature, ordered to be employed in the improvement of internal communications ; and since that period, I believe, there have been only about 3,000/. devoted to that purpose. To what do you attribute the Legislature giving less since 1817 than it did before ? — I do not recollect the causes that I have heard assigned for it at present. Since the year 1817, have any Appropriation bills for roads been passed by either branch of the Legislature, which have not received the sanction of the other ? — I cannot state whether there was or was not. Did you consider the want of communication in the townships as one of the grievances you were to represent ? — I did, certainly. To what did you attribute that want of communication, and what were the suggestions you had to offer for the remedy of it? — Undoubtedly, one of the reasons to which the difficulties of rjmmunication, as well as many other diffi- culties under whicli the townships labour, 1 have generally heard ascribed to ati indisposition on the part of the Provincial House of Assembly, to give encou- ragement to such sevtlements: that 1 have very often heard assigmul as one of the reasons ; it is by man' believed to be a reason. Jli live II »««««)«»;:,-■«»•. 'k ON THE CIVIL (JOVKRNMKNT OF CANADA. re the of the diffi- to ati 3ncoii- of the I Live: Have there been any proposaU nmdn in thu l<(^Ki)ihitiir» to appropriate funds for the improvement of the internal communioation iu the towniihipi aince the year 1817 ?— There have ; and I think that thiro may have been nums to the '^ amount of about 3,ouu/. appropriated fur ruadi, uf wliicli 11 part wait directed to be employed in the townships. Has the Governor, since the year 1817, evvrimllcd thr nttcnticm of the I.«gi8- lature to the necessity of improving; the internal cunitniinicntions i — Yes, in his speeches or mcssaffres, I believe, freauuntly. What notice has been tal(en of tnat recommendation ? — As I said before, not being a member of the Le^rjslature, I cannot take upon nic to state ; it is con- sidered that the proceedings that ought to huvo bmin adopted in those particulars were neglected. Will you state what proceedings you think ought to have been adopted ? — I consider that the law ought to have been altered, so as to adopt it to the situa- tion of the townships. What law?— The law that now exists in the province regarding roads, namely, the Act of the 36th of George the 3d. Is that impression in the townships general among the I'.nglish settlers, that if some principal lines of commur- 'atinn were made tliitre would bo great increased facility to the formation of settUinents in those townsliips? — There cannot be any doubt -.' it. Is it the impression that it is in order to prevent such SHttlirmctits that difliculties are thrown in the way of forming such roads? — It is belivvcd so by a great many. You have stated other grievances which you were desirous to represent, bearing hard upon the British setUers in the townshins ; what are those grievances? — I might perhaps offer, as a more succinct mouu of pointing them out, a petition that was drawn up and signed by upwards of U>,0()0 pnrsons at the time that they prayed, in order to obtain relief from these difliculties for the union. The petition that was drawn up by them contained wimt were considered generally amongst them as their grievances ; it would be sliorter, therefore, to read them from this petition than to state them in uny other mannor. What is the date of that petition ? — It was Irunsmitted from the townships in 1823. , , Do you conceive that that is a latr statement ol what is generally complained of? — I do believe it to be a fair statement; it is entitled thu petition from the inhabitants of British birth and descent in Durham. Stiinbridge, iind so on, enu- merating a gruat number of them in Lower Cunudu. [The witness delivered in a copy nf the petition, uhidi tint read.] With respect to what is there mentioned, I hiivo only to state that I do not know any alteration in the condition of the townships, t'xccptunly that there has been for a certain portion of their number a court estublished, which decides causes of a very limited amount ; that however uD'ects only n portion of the town- ships comprised in what is called the inferior district of .St. Frnncis. By whom has that court been established ? - It wii« flstnbliihed by the Legisla- ture. I believe that his Excellency recommended thr t'stablishment of a court there, and the Legislature established it ; it is under H temporary Act, however, which expires next year. Under the Act of 1791, permission was given to any person who desired it, to have his property granted to him in free and common soccagc out of the seigneuries ? — Yes. Is it under that Act that the townships have arisen r— I consider that without that .Act it would have been equally competent lo the Government to have established the townships. Is not all the land in the townships held in free and common soccage ? — It is ; but I conceive that that was a tenure that was established from the very commence- ment of Cnnada becoming an English colony. In the year I7t)3, His Majesty's proclamation promised to all his subjects, both in Knglnnd and in the Colonies, the benefit of the laws of England, if they would go to Canada. At tvhat time was land first granted in free and common HOCCage in Canada ? — I believe it was so granted in few years after the conquest. Is all the law! in the townships held in free and common (OCCage .' — All. 5ar of tlioNC Nt'iu'iicuriiipi, in tliu province of Lower Canada, the townships iiave been M^runleil iiiiii'ti I7{|l> Have the goodness to state, Nuppiminu' •''•' »'••>"'"' "f the river to be east and nest, liow far to the eastward or towards th« nidillh of the river tlic seifrneuries extend?— They extend in a conneeletl line lo the Mul Hay Uivcr on the north side, and to I)e I'eiras or Metis on the other siih' of the river. There are some detached sei^;neuries even beyond these on eugh side of llie river. And westward they extend lo Upiier Canada? I'liey do. Are tiiey continuous alon^; the wiioht of that line f— 'I iicy arc continued from Metis on the one side, and fron> M«l Hay on tin- other (tide of llie river St. Lawrence up to a little above Montreal, Withoutuny interval? — Without any interval ahmpfthc bunks of the river. To the west of Quebec, and in depth from the river to the American frontier, do the seigneuries extend the whole dislunrer They do not. Is the land immediately upon the .Aimrieau frontier in Rcigneuric or in town- ship?— CJenerally in township, not universally. Is there a lineof sei<.nieurie8 extending idong the bank of the river Richelieu ? —Yes. Does that extend along the river Itii'helieu lo the Aiiieriraii frontier ? — It docs. Does that cut off niul sepaiale the towMships at the back of the seigneuries in the Lower I'mvincc from the I '|)pcr Province f Those seigneuries do intervene l.per iJiiiur •itiviiice, the Amei'iean frontier ?- -They do on the between the townships and the IJppiT And they form a continued linu up lo river Uichclieu. Will you direct your attention In that portion of territory which is on the west of the river Hichelieu, and between the St. Lawrence and Upper Canada. Are there any townships in that district, or is it all occupied by seigneuries ? — There are some township.s. Can you state at all what the breadth of the tract of seigncurie is on both sides of the river Richelieu, near the boundary of the province that divides the great tract of townships, on Uie south of the .S|, Lawrence luid east of the Richelieu, from the townships south of the .St. Lawrence ami west of the Richelieu? — The breadth on bolli sides msty be about six or eight leagues, The portion of land that is west imnuuliutely of the river Richelieu is called the county of Huntingdon, is not it j*- There uie lliiee counties between the Richelieu and the St. Lawrence, Uuntingdoii, Kent ami Surrey. Do the townships in the county of lluiilingdon join immediately upon the townships in Upper (Canada, or do the Keigm'uries intervene there? — They would join immediately, but that the river St. Lawreiue separates them. But there is no seigneurie between r None. Is the whole southern bank of the river St, Lawreiue, between the mouth of the river Richelieu and the point where LowiM' Canada meets the United States, !•■ seigneuries? — It is not, the whole of it ; there is the exception of the township of («odmanchcncuries. Is lliere any thing like a capital or principal town in this district of townships? — There is not. is there any considerable villiijje in il f— Hurt) arc atvcnd vilhigis; I do not know ON Tin: CIVIL GOVKHNMENT OF CANADA. '1!'" ft the ipon the would r — Tliey know that nny of them would deserve the name of conxiderable ; there in one however, that is, I believe, as large as other villages in Canada ; that is Stanstead. Is there any considerable market town ? — No. Are there any seigncmics lying detached among the townships? — None. Will you (Irscribe the state ot the eastern boundary of the townships ; how far do tiiey extend to tin east with reference to the lliver St. John? — They extend to the .Static of Maine ; and where that commences is n controverted point. What is the di.strict of Gabp^, is that in township or seigneurie ?— There are several townships, and some stigneuries there. When the Lower Province was divided into counties, upon what principle was the division made?— It is natural to suppose that the division was made with u view to the then population. Is the residt of that division, that some of the counties consisting exclusively of seigneuries, are of very small dimensions, and that other counties consisting principally of townships are of very great extent? — Yes. Name some of the counties of small extent consisting of seigneuries? — There are the county of Surrey and the county of Kent ; the county of Duckingham, I suppose, is equal in extent to a do/en of both those counties. l)(>e." the county of nuckingham return two members? — It returns only two members. There are some seisineuries in the county of Duckingham, but its prin- cipal extent consists of town.ship lands. There 's the county of Northumber- land, which extends from the St. Lawrence to the Hudson's Bay territories, and is equal in extent to a kingdom. Is not that nn extent of wilderness ?— It is at present chiefly 80. i . , , . Not laid out in townships ? — No. •,■'•' - ■ • Does the county of Kent, or the county of Surrey, though small in point of extent, possess u larger population at this moment than the county of Buck- ingham ? — I take it that the county of Buckingham possesses a for larger population than either of tho.se. There was a census of the population taken in 1825. In what manner waa it taken ; in counties or districts? — It was the population of the counties, I believe. Have you that document by you ? — I have not. Have you it in Kni^land ? — I think I can get it. If in the townships nny individual has a suit at law, or any business at the county town, what facility has he of communicating it: are there direct roads to the county town ? — Wc have no county courts there ; the courts are all district courts. Wiiere are the district courts held? — At Montreal and Three Rivers, and Quebec. Is there no court at all held in the counties? — We have no courts held in the counties; wc had the country divided into counties for the purpose of sending representatives; it is the old division that was made in 1791. Where is the place of election in each county ? — It is a place appointed by the Legislature ; I do not recollect the names of each. Each county has a place of election within itself? — It has a place or places. And they are all within the seigneuries? — They are, except perhaps at Gasp6. ' Have any petitions been presented from the inhabitants of the townships to the Legislature to introduce in the townships British courts and British jurisdiction ? — 1 believe there have many for the establishment of courts. What reception have they met with? — 1 understand that they have been treated with neglect ; that they have never been attended to at all except as to the tem- porary Act for St. Francis. Does it consist with your knowledge that applications have been made for the registration of freeholders and deeds? — Ilesiding always at Montreal, and the Legislature being held at (Quebec, it is difficult to say that it consists with my personal knowledge ; but I understand and believe that that is the case, that applications have been made repeatedly to the Colonial Legislature for register ofhces. Is tlicre much inconvenience oxperienced from the want of registers in the town- • slii[)s? — Very ;^reat indeed ; it is considered as essential to the security of pro- perty, where a lonn chain of titles cannot be >fiven (as is the case in a new country), that a person shall be al)le to a.srertain whether he who was formerly proprietor of the land has disposed of- it anteriorly or not, and whether he can give a good tide. • .")♦•!)• C 3 " Are Samutl OaU, Ell/. 8 .May 1898. 9« MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE UEFOKE SELIICT COMMITTEE OmU, I lit I' m iili I tUf iltS. Are there any civil courts in the towniihipa other tlian tboae which Mt in the ■ei|(neuriefl tonncr the French Kyiitein N -Nonu, except in the inferior din- trict ol' St. Franci*!, uliich is u dixtrict conipriHing a certain number of townxhips, and efltabliahcd rei-ently, nince llie itigninx of the petition that I produced. Supnosin({ an inlmhitunt of a townthip to auc another inhabitant upon a (pieM- tion of civil property, miMt ho brin^ bin action in the French courts? — Hr numt brin^r his action in the French courts of law. And sue and be sned in the French lani(ua){e ? - The Entfhsh language is u^eiie- rally mode us«' of by the lulvoentes (ir lawy«'rH who are English ; there is no law to 1>revent their setting; forth their claim in English, and that I consider the le^nl nnguage of the writs ; but the law that is to determine the claim is French, generally speaking- How does the French law apply to the land held in free and common soccagc ? —At present it doe|)erty that is not liable to dower. The wife is entitled to one half the communautc, that is, one half of the entire personal property of the husband, and one half of the real property which he has acquired during his marriage. Does this go to the heirs of the wife? — If the wife dies before the husband, the children will be entitled to her share of the communaut^ ; that is, to one half of it instantly upon her death, even although the husband acquired the whole of this communaute; and tliu consequence is, very fre(|ucntly, lawsuits between parents and children; I have known very otkn children bringing suits against their parents. Suppose the children die before the wife, upon the death of the wife does the property go to the heirs of the children or of tne wife ? — If there were grand-chil- dren living it would go to them ; but supposing the wife were to die without having had children, it would go to her heirs, although they were strangers to the husband ; so that, supposing the wife dies, if there has been no previous marriage contract, her relations can claim from the husband one half of the fruits of his labour, although the wife might never have brought him any thing. Would a previous marriage contract pleaded in the French courts bar the right of communaut^ ? — Undoubtedly the right of communaute would be destroyed if there were a previous marriage contract setting it aside ; but in order to make a previous marriage contract, it is necessary to have some idea of the law, and most Knglishmen who come to that country know very little about that. Even in the case where a marriage contract did not subsist, could the husband have power to alter that disposition by will, or does the power only apply to cases where the party has died intestate, and there has been no marriage contract? — I do not conceive that the husband would have a right to dispose of the communaut^by will ; he can spend it, or he can dispose of it while he lives, but not by will, as. I conceive. You have stated that it is undecided in the country whether this conomuuaut^ does apply always to English settlers in the townships ; has the question ever been brought before the courts : — I have no knowledge myself of its having been brought forward contradicts 'y I do not know that any instance exists of its having been, decided where the opposition was made upon the ground that the law did not apply. The courts, of course, if the objection be not taken, would make it apply ; but I do not know that it has been objected to, and decided formally upoit objection. What is the appeal from the courts of Canada upon the French law ? — ^Tbe appeal is first to the Court of Appeals at Quebec, and ne.\t to the King in Council here. Have there been appeals to the King in Council upon the construction of Ui« French law in the seigneuriesf — In some cases. 0*4r. 8 May il«l. .^*>«). C4 4 ! !^= ' ■l,\ i;]r 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ' Marl is, 13* die Muij, 18'.>8. Samuel Gale, Esq. again called in ; and Examined. Samuel Gale WHEN' you Were last before the Committee you placed before tliom a Petition, A'sy. ' numerously signed by the Inhabitants of the townships in Lower Canada; it is ^>^ " stated in that petition, that ♦' the townships are peopled by person ; who inhabit 13 May i8j8. lands trrantcd under the British tenure of free and common soccago, who have a Protestant Clergy, for whose maintenance a portion of those lands are set apart, and who, notwithstanding, are subject to French laws, of which they know nothing." According to the statute law which is in force in Canada, are not the persom who live in the townships subject to the English civil law, as well as the English criminal law?— I have heard some legal characters state that they con- sider the townships entitled to the English civil law in toto\ I have heard others deny the position. The following are some of the alterations of the law in the colony; in the first instance, by His Majesty's proclamation, in the year I7t)3, it was declared that all his subjects resorting to Canada should bo entitled to tiie benefit of the laws of his Realm of England; the statute of 1774 bestowed the French laws upon the seigneuries, but excepted from the operation of those laws the rest of the province granted or to be granted in soccage, the tenure of the townships. The English laws were acted upon, as it has been stated, from 1 763 to 1774; those who maintain that the English laws are now fully in force in the townships, found themselves upon the proclamation, the practice for eleven years after, and the exception in the statute of 1 774. What does the statute of 1 774 |)rovide in that respect ? — After having introduced into the seigneuries the body of French law, which was assumed by tiie statute to be the establishment of a law not then existing in Canada, it declares that nothing iti that Act shall extend or be construed to extend to lands granted or to be granted under the English tenure, that is, in free and common soccage. Is not that held distinctly to limit the operation of the French law to the seigneuries and the inhabitants thereof: — It is, by some lei^al characters. Upon what grounds is it held by other persons that the French law lias any effect upon the townships r — There are some who deny that the I'nglish laws, except the criminal, were ever legally introduceil into Lower Canada, either antecedently to the statute of 1774, or by the provisions of that statute. Do they deny that the statute ot' 1774 has any etl'ect to be in force in the townships. Di) you mean Acts or Bills- — I mean .Acts. There was an Act in ic!j,5, which established a coiu'twitli a small jurisdieti'.n in a certain part of tlie t()«nshi|)s, a jurisdiction to the amount of jo/., and in that Act there are ex|)ressioiib used whereby it would l)e conelinled that the Frenc li laws were assumed to ojterate in the townships. Where is that court held ? -That eoiiil, I believe, i-, In id in Slicrbrookc. Can vou state any other Act from which it ina) be inlcfed that it is held by the I ON THE CIVIL GOVEIINMENT OF CANADA. 25 to tlic lili tlir jniims of deny that iiti educed it purports percroga- tlu! seigu- maintiiia rein shall ; can pro- of owing by words exception, t was froui ved of the the the members of the Assembly that the French law is in force in the townships, notwithstanding th« Act of 1774? — I do not recollect at this moment any Act tiiat has been passed, but I think there may be, and I believe that various bills ■whicli have passed the Assembly would show that such was their interpretation. Can you refer to any thing else besides those Acts, from which it may be inferred that it is the opinion of the leading persons amongst the Canadians, that the provisions of the Act of 1 774 are not of authority, and ought not to prevail in Lower Canada? — I do not at the moment recollect any thing further ihan the mere general opinions expressed in conversation by those gentlemen ; they would hardly find fault with the provisions of that Act, where they confirmed or re- established French institutions ; it is only where exceptions are made in favour of English civil institutions that the eft'ect of the Act would be denied. Can you mention any Act of this nature, and leading to this inference, which has been passed in Canada since the passing of the Tenures Act? — No, I do not recollect any passed since, l]y ihe passing of the Tenures Act then, that question, so far as the Legislature of Canada is concerned, appears to have been set at rest? — No, that cjuestion has been set at rest only as far as regards ixiit property by the Tenures Act. In what year was the Tenures Act? — 1826. Arc you aware whether there has been any decision in courts of justice upon the point whether the English law does or does not prevail in the townships? — I do not know that that point has been made a subject of litigious controversy ; there may have been suits determined upon that principle ; but if tiie question was not raised, no conclusion as to the settlement of the principle could be drawn from such determinations. You are a lawyer? — I am. In the interval between ihe Proclamation and the Act of 1774, vvas not Mr. Hay chief justice of the province of Quebec? — I believe he was. Can you state what the form of his commission was, with regard to adminis- tering the law according to the practice of the courts of England ? — I do not recollect what his commission was, but I take for granted that it must have been in conformity to the proclamation, in which case it must have been to administer the laws as nearly as might be agreeably to the laws of England. Can you state whether any cases with regard to property of any kind were so decided, either in the seigneuries or in the townships, luuler that proclamation ? I have not seen any of the decisions of Mr. Hay which I at present recollect; reports were not published in (Janada. What do you know of any petitions which have been presented to the Assembly, praying that British courts of justice and IVitish laws might be introduced into the townships ? — There h.ive been several petitions presented ; some sent to F.nghind, praying for English courts and English laws; and others to the Assembly, praying for courts, register offices, and for a representation. Has any thing been done in consequence of those petitions praying for courts? I do not know any thing further than that at a very recent period, in 1 823, a ;ourt was established, with a small jurisdiction of 20/. in personal cases, over a small portion of the townships. What portion of the townships have access to this corrt? — I believe it is chiefly that portion of the townships situate witiiiri that part of the county of Buckingham which is in tlie district of the Tiirec Rivers. Is that court distinctly limited to that district? — It is ; and the jurisdiction does not extend beyond 20/., nor beyond 10/. without appeal; so that it is a trifling jurisdiction. Who is appointed judge of it? — Mr. Fletcher. Is he an English I.Mvyer? — He is. A native of Mrifain? — A native of Britain, as I understand; and I believe lie wiis a prartitioncr at the bar in London. Are the English laws administereil iu that court? -I have not been there, and as there me no reports of adjudged ca.ses, I do not kiiuw ; but I presume that his dciisioiis ill those personal cases are all under the French law, excepting in so Car as it nviiy have lieen modified by provincial statutes. Did not tlie House of Assembly pass a hill, introducing the trial by jury in civil oases?--. Alter several judicature bills had been previously pas.sed by the Legii- lalivo Couucil, the .Assembly passed a judicature bill, wherein trial, by jury, of :V"J- D a new Samuel Gak, Etf. 13 May 1838. Samutl Oalf, Ell/. laMoy iB«8. a«i MINiriES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE n new (leiicription, were indeed introduced, but wherein also trials by jury of , ft previouR 4e8cription were abolished • — a bill which, in my opinion, when I lorinerly looked into its enactments, might have been rightly considered as one thot it would be impossible to sanction and proceed upon without injury to the country. Whftt was the nature of the injury apprehended ? — It was not considered to be fit for the state of the province. I>o you know on what particular grounds that opikiion was entertained ? — I da not recollect exactly now ; it is long since I have looked at it. The bill appeared to provide n cumbrous and difficult system. In some civil cases it established juries, indeed, whose members might be less qualified for their office, but in whom unanimity was required, instead of juries as now established, who might be better qualified, and of whom nine might return a verdict. Its operation would have excluded divers townships whose inhabitants belonged to the jurisdiction, and mi^ht have been parties to the suit, from furnishing jurors. It lett untouched the mam evil of the present system, in not forming a sufficient tribunal to give certainty and unifor.nity to the jurisprudence of the country, which, as it has not, as to French laws, the perpetual corrective of a body of living expounders in the parent state, must require more especially an able and permanent appellate tribunal in the country. llavo you the bill r — >The bill is in my possession. Then that was an approximation to the English law which passed in the House of ARsembly, and was rejected by the Governor and the Legislative Council ? — I do not know whether it ever went before the Governor; but I believe it was not rejected upon the ground of its approximation to the English law. Did the Legislative Council ever introduce or originate a bill purporting to be an amendment of this bill P — They passed, during several sessions, a bill for the eitablithment of a different judicature, since it is admitted, on all hands, that the judicoture at present existing in Lower Canada is in a very defective state. The first bills that were passed for the amendment of the judicature were passed during several successive years in the Legislative Council, as I understand. Mau that judicature bill brought in in the Assembly reference to the whole province, witli one uniform operation, or had it reference to a distinct operation in the townships? — It had, I believe, reference to one uniform operation in the townships and in the seigneuries. Can j'ou furnish the Committee with copies of the bills to which you have alluded :— I will produce copies of some of tliem. Arc the contracts and legal instruments which are executed by the inhabitants of the townships, although living under the English law, and holding land in free and common soccage, in English forms or in French forms ? — I do not reside there, and I cannot state the practice there now. Wliat is the mode of conveyance ? — The mode of conveyance I know frequently has been according to the French form. But I always considered that illegal, even before the Canada Tenure Act was passed in England, and therefore when- ever I had any thing to do with conveyances I always used to have them executed in the English form. What form ? — Generally lease and release. llow could they apply the Canadian form of conveyance to the tenure in free and v'ommon soccage r — They used to go to a notary just as they would do with respect to lands in the seigneuries, and get the notary to pass what is called an Act, and the notary would thereafter have to make a copy under his signature, which, if it had concerned lands in the seigneuries, would have been a sufficient deed, but I do not consider that it would have been a sufficient deed under the English laws. Is there not one of the forms of tenure under the French laws, which is almost the same thing as free and common soccage in effect? — I conceive not; there is one that is calledyrfluc aku, but that is of two kinds ; franc aleu noble &nd J ratio u!eu rvluriir ; the Jranc aleu noble is a kind of seigneury, with many conditions and rights generally attached to seigneuries, and at the same time it would be, as well as the franc aim roturier, under all the liabilities to the French law in other fMirticulurs, such as dower and communaute, and notarial mortgages, which the itnds in the seigneuries arc subject to. Do you consider that they do not resemble free and common soccage?— No; they 'll ■P ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 37 have 'i ■er 'i they are subject to a variety of liabilities, being French tenures, to which such English tenure is not subject. If an Englishman die in Quebec intestate, possessed only of personal propeify, according to what law would that property be distributed r — Of course, according to the French law, as to all Englishmen domiciled in the seigneuries ; and if it were in the towoships, it is maintained by a part of the inhabitants of Lower Canada that there too it would be distributed under the French law ; but it is held by another part of the subjects in Canada, that is the Eng.isb, that it ought to be distributed according to the English laws. Has not there been any decision of a court as to that question ? — I do not know whether the particular question has been litigiously contested ; there may have been decisions with respect to personal property in the townships, whirh decisions may have been rendered according to tne French laws, but these were perhaps not decisions rendered when that particular question an'^ that particular objection were raised before the court, so that these decisions w*. uld determine nothmg. In the case of ar. Englishman dying in Quebec possessed of personal property, would he hiive the po»ver of disposing of it by will ? — If he were not married, unquestionably. Supposing he were married previously to coming to Quebec ? — I should con- ceive that if a marriage took place out of Canada, all the liabilities consequent upon the marriage would be in conformity to the law of the place where the mar- riage was contracted ; unless where the husband was previously established in Canada, and went to another country in order to get married, and returned to resume his residence in Canada ; in that case I should suppose that the liabilities consequent upon the marriage would follow the laws of Canada. Supposing that an individual emigrating from England to Quebec marries, when there, a lady who has also emigrated from England to Quebec, and both of them are possessed of personal property, according to the law in force there, would the husband, in the case of his death and no setuement being made, have the power of disposing of the property by will ? — I believe there may be a difference of opinion upon that point; for my own part I should conceive, as the law now stands, that the husband in such case would not have a right to dispose of all his personal pro- perty ; that he could not dispose of that part which belongs to his wife, who is entitled to the communautL Will you state your reasons for that opinion ? — During his life the husband can sell and dispose of the property constituting the communaute, but at his death the wife becomes invested with the exercise of her pre-existing right to one half of it; and although the law authorizes the husband, as master of the communaute, inter vivos, and using his wife's rights as well au his own, to dispose of all the property that belongs to the communaute, one would hardly construe that that authority would extend to the: testamentary bequest of property that is considered to belong to another, and whose right of gestion over it commences the moment he dies. His will comes into operation only at his death; but upon the contingency which brings his will into operation, his wife would seem entitled to the exercise of her pre-existing right over half the commu,naut6. It is, among others, for this reason, that the right of the wife being pre-existent, although called into exercise only at the same moment that the will of the husband comes into force, I conceive the husband has no right to deprive her by will of her half of the communaute. Is this distribution founded upon any part of the custom of Paris? — Upon the custom of Paris, that establishes the cmnmumutL Where a wife died without making a will and without children, one half of the nusband's property, amounting to several thousand pounds, was claimed by the wife's relations from the husband, although the wife had brought him no money whatever. Would the same results follow in the case of a person dying at any place within the townships, Quebec being within the seigneuries ? — That would depend wholly upon the question whether the English or the French law is to be considered to exist in the townships with regard to personal property. How is the fact '. — I have already .stated that the fact is by some considered doubtful. If the French law exists in the townships, there is no doubt that all that right of communaute and all its consequences would exist there. If the English laws be introduced in toto in the townships, instead ot being confined .simply to the lands, then this right of communauti does not exist there. In the course of years has no person died intestate in the townships, so as to ,5fi;). D 2 bring Samuel Qale, 13 May iSat. L., ai MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE StmuriGaU, 13 May i8t8. •ii 1! a bring this question before the court for decision?— I dare say persons have often died intestate. I liave stated, in answer to a previous question, that I do not know any case in which the precise exception has yet been urged in a court of justice. Then, in point of fact, the French law has been allowed to take its counie ? — It has been oilen allowed to take its cc-irse ; but I know many cases in which tho parties have made an arrangement by agreement as to personal property. Supposing a person possessed of real property within the seigneuries was to die intestate, what would happen then ? — His real property would, if it was ignoble property, be equally divided among his children ; if it were noble, that is, if it were a fief or seigneury, it would not be divided auite equally, but the eldest son would have an rxtra portion ; that is, he would have two thirds if there were only one child besides himself, and he would have one half if there were several children. What power has a person over his real property to settle by will in both these cases ? — ^It would depend in a good measure upon the precaution he had takeit before he married. Supposing he dies without being married ? — If he dies without being married he may do as he likes with all his property, he may bequeath it all ; but if he dies, being married, the right he has over his property depends upon his having taken the precaution previous to his marriage to establish his right by contract or not. If under the contract he has reserved to himself a perfect and entiru control and disposal over all his property, in that case he has a right to bequeath it all by will. If he has not taken this stei), either from want of prudence or from ignorance of the liabilities that his property would be under from not making the contract, then he cannot dispose of a very considerable portion of liis property. What proportion ? — He could not dispose of that which would be liable to the dower, which would be one half of all the lands that he possessed at the time of his marriage, or that he might have succeeded to by inheritance, as well as some others. What happens to the dower upon the death of the widow ? — The dower then belongs to the children. Supposing there are none r — Then, upon the death of the wife, it would go back again to the husband's relations. Supposing a person to have complete control over his real property, what is the mode of conveyance in order to transfer it to another when it is sold ?— The common practice is, to have an act of sale drawn by a notary, somewhat similar to our deeds-poll, stating the transaction and the consideration, this is signed by the parties, and remains for ever with the notary. There io no original deed, com* monly given out to the parties when notarial instrumer.ts are passed, nnd the notary gives certified copies ; these certified copies amount to proof in a court of justice; they are considered authentic instruments, which prove themselves, somewhat as the record of one of the courts of England would be deemed authentic in another of the courts of England. Is that registered in any public office whatever to which persons can subse- quently have access?— No; registers have been very much desired, because without them there is no possibility of knowing whether a man has not transferred his property a dozen times or a hundred times before. Must all subsequent transactions with regard to the transfer of real property he carried on in the house of the same notary with whom the original trp isactiuii took pip.ce ? — No, there are 250 notaries, or about that number, in the provinco of Lovt er Canada, and a pcison may go to any one of those that he pleaseM, and each is bound to keep secret the transactions that pass before him. How do you know the former state of the title of any property which you niuy wish to purchase? — ^There is no possibility of knowing it. Do you borrow money upon mortgage ? — There is a great deal of difficulty in doing so, seeing that persons can obtain no certainty that they have a secure lien upon the property. A man may go before a notary and mortgage iiis prupui ty ; this mortgage may be a mere declaration before a notary, that a certain sum is duo by the mortgagor to the mortgagee, and the same individual may go before each of the other 2,00 notaries in Lower Canada, and mortgage his properly in thi* same manner, and tlicre is bo possibility of knowing whether he has or has not given other mortga^jcs previously. Do it t i;ti!!i ON THE CIVIL (iOVKftNMENT OF CANADA. H then can subsfi- A, becBuaP transferred )roperly he trp isuctiuii le province easeis, aii'l ch you niiiy difficulty in secure lien is projieily ; 1 sum in dut* hel'ore eneli iperty in tlie ls or hub not Do t)o your observationi applv to land in the seigneurie8 only, or to land held in the townships also ?— To land in the »eigneuries now, because the Canada Tenures Act has exonerated the land in the townships from the operation of the Trench laws relating to mortga(|;e. Is there any specific process nftcemiitry in mortgaging r — It is simply neces- sary that the mortgagor should declnre that he owes a specific sum, and mort- (tugcs his property, which will import nil the property that he then has, or for ever after may acquire ; the law attticlies it to ail the property, upon an Act containing that simple deckratiun, und signed by the parties before a notary. Is it not the fact, that an individual may go to a notary and perfect a mort- gage, and that the next day he may sell his property without the possibility of i'le mortgagee's attaining any knowledge of that fact? — Yes, but then I apprehend t.iat the purchaser would sutler ond nut the mortgagee, because whoever is first in date is prior in right. Must not that lead to u great many law-suits? — An immense number of law- suits and frauds. I have seen widows and orphans, whose money had been lent upon mortgage, deprived of their all. There is scarcely a term in any of the courts that passes witliout numberi) of those frauds being brought to light. Do you understand that this NyKtani with regard to mortgages is one that necessarily springs out of the CNtabliiihment of the French law; do you under- stand that it prevails so in France, or docs it depend upon local statutes ? — All those laws under which the notarial mortgages are effected are derived from the custom of Paris, or through French inslitutions. In France, however, frauds of this description might not nave been so frequently practised, because there was a criminal law that subjected those who thus imposed upon others to punish- ment. This criminal law has not (existed in Lower Canada since the acqui- sition of the country by the I''ngtii*h, because the English criminal law was substituted in lieu of the French. But that provision of the French law was by no means adequate to prevent fraud* ; it might indeed after the commission of ouch offences punish the individuaU who might be guilty of them, but the object that is particularly desirable is to prevent them altogether, which might be done by having registers. Does the mode of conveyance you have mentioned apply to noble holdings: — To nil lands in seignorial Canada. In the House of Assembly has any member ever introduced a bill for the purpose of amending this state of the law witiiin your knowledge ? —Yes, a bill was introduced into the HouKe of Assembly for the establishment of register ofHccs. A bill was also introduced, and uttually passed, in the Legislative Council for that purpose for the townships ; but the bill that was introduced into the Assembly was, I believe, a general bill for the establishment of register tiflices, and this bill fell throu^^h in the Assembly. Was it lost by a large mnjority '-=1 do not recollect by what majority ; but I know that some of the reasons itKfdgned for rejecting the bill, published in a speech as pronounced before the Assembly, were, that " the religious principles " and die habits of the reople were adverse fo the practice of lending money " t.j)cr. interest;" and ' that it would enable the few that had money to do " injurv to the many that were needy." And it was asked " whether it would " iiot be better for the riche (li'ii/e to lo>ifi a portion of his superfluity if he '• lent his money, than that the poor man should be expropriated." Those were some of liie reasons that were published as assigned by a lawyer in the House of Assembly. I have the publication here, Was it upon tlie failure of this bill in the House of Assembly that a bill for thosunie purpose, but confining its objects to the tcvwnships, was int ' iuto the Legislative Council? — No, I thini< (hut bill was introduced into thi liitive Council first, but am not certain. Was that rejected by the IIouho of Assembly ?— They ms.dc no proceedings upon it at all^ as 1 have understood. Was it in consequence of the sudden dissolution of the i^arliument, or from their coming to any matter that rendered it impossible to go on with the public bu'sincss?— I do not know whether it was in consequence of the sudden proro- mition of Tarliamcnt ; but 1 believe there have been subsequent sessions in whicli (lie iiiiitdr might have been taken np had it been tlionght lit. It was about v year g o that the Assembly rejected tlieir own registry bill. Samuel Gale, Elf. i3;islative Council in iSiCi, but I am not quite "' certain whether it was in 182,'; or iSjO. It had been petitioned for, however, a number of times during several years. VVas it subsequently to the time when Sir Francis Burton was provisionally administering the Government? — I cannot recollect whether it was in that year or after. Is it your opinion that the civil law of Lower Canada could be materially altered without extensively affecting existing interests in that province ? — I should conceive that the civil law might be altered without extensively aifecting existing interests ; the rights of those that possess them now might be by a clause in any Act preserved. Does that mode of conveyance which you have described as existing in the seigneuries interfere at all with the transmission of real property? — It renders it always very uncertain and very insecure. And I have kni -n a number of pei- sons that have come from England to settle in Canada, who had brought money to purchase property, quit Lower Canada in consequence. I have known some with 1,000/. and others with more. It drives people out of the country: they cannot think of settling and laying out money in the purchase of land, where, after having possessed the land for a number of years, they may find an indivi- dual with a mortgage upon it, which divests them of their right. What effect has it upon the interest of money lent upon mortgage ? — It has this effect, that it is generally very difficult, and that there is often no such thing as getting it upon mortgage ; and that keeps back the improvement of the country ; because if money cannot be borrowed upon the credit of land, there must be a great deficiency of requisite capital to be employed in its improvement. Are you aware of the existence of any estates which include lands in the seigneuries and also in the townships, belonging to the same individual, bordering upon each other? — There are several individuals who possess property both in the seigneuries and in the townships bordering upon each other. According to what form does land pass from one person to another in the town- ships ? — At present I believe none would transfer except under English forms. Heretofore, too, most prudent persons used to transfer under English forms, but it was customary among a good many to transfer under the French forms. Is that practice pretty well established at present within the townships ? — Not having been there lately, I cannot say from personal observation, but I have no doubt of it. It must; be so, I think, inasmuch as no other transfer at present could be legal. Does the practice of borrowing money upon mortgage prevail in the townships ? — Doubtless a pood many would be desirous to borrow money upon mortgage if they could obtain it; but as there arc no register offices there, the inhabitants, even in the townships, although nut subject to all the difficulties that seigneurial mortgages would occasion, must find it extremely difficult to borrow money upon mortgage. If an individual purchases an estate within the townships, does the title that is made out for him show or profess to show the previous transfers that have taken place of that property, or does it show the original title of the property ? — There are not the means of giving a long chain of titles to lands in the townships, such as would secure the purchaser in his property, or enable him to know that he was secure. In England a long cliuin of titles may be given, but in a country settled only yesterday, in which an individual may have received a grant of some thousand acres, of which he would transfer perhaps two hundred, or other small portion at a time, it is impossible that the old titles can go with the new ; it is im- possible that, unless there are register offices, it should be known that he has not previously transferred the same land to somebody else ; and, for these and other reasons, they desire register ofiices in the townsliips, upon principles resembling those upon which they are generally established over the rest of America. According to what forms is property distributed by will? — A will may be made now, and before the Canada Tenures Act it might have been made according to the French or according to the Knglish form;. Which practice prevails? — I believe it is the general practice to make their wills according to the English form among the English inhabitants. In the case of intcstacv, is property in the townships distributed according to the !l I W: . T E nk that jt quite ^ever, a sioiially liat year J altered conceive iterests ; •eserved. rr in the cnders it • of pei- (t money iwn some Ty: they I, where, in indivi- It has this thing as country ; must be a ids in the bordering ty both in i the town- lish forms, irms, but it I. lips?— Not t 1 have no jsent could townships ? mortgage if nhabitants, seigneurial nonoy upon title that is t have taken rty ?— There nships, such low tliat he in a country rant of some r other small ew ; it is im- at he has not se and other !s resembling irica. may be made > according to to make their 1 according to the ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 3» the English law ; does the right of primogeniture prevail ? — I conceive that it does, in landed property. Does the right of dower prevail in the same form and to the same extent as in England ? — Happily that right is now precisely the same in the townships as it is in England. The Committee perceive in the petition that reference is made tc a bill which the Legislative Council passed in the session of 182,5, for the purpose of intro- ducing into the townships the English law of dower and conveyance, and makina incumbrances special, and establishing pubhc offices for the registration of au mutations of real property, and of all mortgages on the same. Was that bill thrown out by the Assembly < — It was not passed. How far has the Canada Tenures Act passed by the Imperial Parliament sup- plied the provisions of that bill ? — It has established all with the exception of the register. With respect to the mode of borrowing money in the towa^hips, do you deliver up the old titles when the conveyance is by lease and release, as is done in this country r — The titles are all new there. U'he titles sometimes include a vast ded more thai the vendor parts with, and of course therefore he must keep his own titles to iiimself, he cannot part with them to one to whom he sells only one-tenth part of what he has. Does not he covenant to produce the title-deeds? — He would have little ob- jection to enter into a covenant of that kind, but that covenant amounts to no more than a warranty. It gives no security to the purchaser, provided the vendor has made a previous sale of it. Are you not aware that the practice is in England every day, when large estates are sold, to enter into covenants for the production of the title-deeds, and that that is no objection to any title in this country ? — You have one security in this country that unfortunately could not be expected to exist in a new country, you have the character of the individuals possessed of large property, you have their great wealth as a security. There the sellers of land are often those that perhaps sell their all when they sell a small tract ; at any rate there is a universal opinion which is acted upon, (and practice has proved it to be just), that without registration it is impossible to ascertain whether the title to land be good or not, or whether the incumbrances upon land are secure or not. Since the passing of the Canada Tenures Act, has the question of the establish- ment of registration offices been again mooted in either house ? — I believe it is since that period that it has been rejected in the Assembly. Have the English population in Lower Canada any desire to disturb the routine of law, or to have the customs of the French Canadians in the seigneuries changed ? — No. If the French Canadians be desirous to maintain the yoke of their ancient laws in the seigneuries, the English, I believe, would seek no altera- tions there, unless what might be necessary for the security of property, or con- sistent with the inclinations of the French Canadians. But it is hard to impose those French laws upon the remaining portion of the province, when it is dis- agreeable, and must be disadvantageous to commerce, to improvement, and to the mass of tiie inhabitants of that portion ; and would be a further violation of the pledges for the establishment of English laws solemnly given by the British Government to nil its English subjects, in addition to the violation of these pledges which has already taken place by the Act of 1774, establishing French laws in the seigneuries. Do you imagine that the feeling for the alteration of the law is universal on the part of the population in the English townships? — I do; there are some few deviations from the law and practice existing in this country, that of course they would be glad of; but those are modifications that could be made in Canada afterwards. But they would like to have the same foundation of law in the townships that they have throughout all the rest of America, except Lower Canada. Would they rather borrow from the amended law of the United States than from the law of England ? — They would rather borrow from the amended law of the United States, or rather from the amended law of the English provinces than from the law of England, because of course the amended law is merely an adaptation of the foundation of English law to the slate of things existing in America. 5<'y- D 4 Did Samutl Gate, Etq. 13 May 1828. I I 1 i^ m 3J MINUTKS or EVIDENCE BEl'OllE SELECT COMMITTEE SamvelGnte, Did not n hill to nllow prisoners the benefit of counsel pnss the F louse of ''*y- Assembly, and was icjpctod by the Leyisiiifivf Council r — I Imvo heard of a bill >' of that description ; hut I did not pay niurh attention to it, and I can hardly say la May «Ba8. whether it passed in ' he Assembly, or whether it passed in tlie Le|Tislutive Council. I at this moment meiely recollect having heard some observations concerning such a bill, and should think it consistent with justice. Amongst the persons who emigrate to the Hritish provinces in North America, is there not a decided preference shown to settling in Upper Canada rather than Lower Canaaa? — I believe that it may be said that a decided preference is shown by the majority of Englishmen and Scotchmen to settling every where rather than in Lower Canada; not only the Hritish Provinces, but also the United States seem to be preferred to l-ower Canada, in its present state. Is not there a disposition manifested on the part of many persons, who arc natives of the United States, to settle in Upper Canada? — I believe a good many people have gone from the United States to Upper Canada. Has it happened that mpny persons who have come to Lower Canada, w ith the intention of settling in that province, on their becoming acquainted with the state of things you describe, have given up that intention, and have crossed the border, and settled in the United States r^ — Great numbers. Upon the Journals of the House of Assembly will be found the following observation of the Land Commit- tee: " From May 1817 to the end of the year 1820, there arrived at the port of " Quebec 39,163 settlers; the gr'?at majority of them, intimidated by the length " and rigour of the winter of this country, and unacquainted with the latis and " language thereof, h'.ive ascended the St. Lawrence, and are now dispersed over " the lands of Upper Canada and the United States, where they have found a " more genial climate, their own language and institutions analogous to those to " which they have been accustomed." That is an extract from a report of a committee of the House of Assembly in Lower Canada. The winter, in many parts of Lower Canada, is not such as to deter settlers from establishing themselves there, as may be seen in other reports of the Assembly. Wliat object do you conceive the committee had in making that report ? — 1 would submit that the report should explain itself. I conceive it is pretty evident that the naked fact is given in such a way as to show no intention of taking any ste|)s in the Legislative Assembly to lessen such of the inconveniences alluded to as it might be in their power to remedy, nor to encourage emigrants ; and a want of encouragement in any other part of America would be considered disgraceful. That it appeared right to them to adhere to every thing that prevented emigrants from Britain, or from other parts of the British dominions, coming into the tmscttled country. Do you think that 100,000 persons is too great a calculation to make of the emigrants that probably would have settled in Lower Canada, if the laws had been other than they are? — I do not think it too great a calculation, since a great many more than that number have come out to Lower (':inada. From what nation were those emigrants : — Fron: l".nt!;!i!nd, Scotland and Ireland. Were any of them citizens of the United States?— Of those that are here spoken of, none. Ill point of fact, have not many of the citizens of the United States passed their own boundary, and established themselves in the province of Lower Canada?— Numbers of them have. Are not many of the lands to the south of the St. Lawrence settled by citizens of the United Slates? — A great many. L'pon the Act of 1701 being passed, proclamations were issued in Lower Canada, in conformity to instructions received from the (iovernment here, inviting the American loyalists to come and settle in the townships of Lower Canada, promising them grants of lands, and giving them encouragement to settle there ; and in consequence of this, numbers of c'.d loyal- ists did come forward and make application for grants of land, and lands were granted to them ; and those who now inhabit those lands are either those loyalists themselves, or their descendants, or the persons to whom they have sold them. Do you nn-an to say that, after the separation of the two provinces of Upper and Lower (Canada in 1791, the object of which separation was to give the ex- clusive possession of tin,' Lower Province to the French Canadians, and of the I'pper Province to the I'.iiglish settlers, proposals were made to encourage the settling ol' Americans in Lower Canada .' — I mean that those proclamations were made IKE ON TUl-: CIVIL GOVEUNMKNT Ol' CANADA. 33 IIOUSB of I of 11 hill lianlly say e Council, rning such Vmerica, i* ather than ;c is shown ratlier tlinn itcd States i, who arc good many a, with the th the state the border, •nals of the id Commit- thc port of y the length le laus and spersed over ive found a to those to report of a er, in many g themselves it report ? — ■ it is pretty intention of conveniences ;c emigrants ; je considered y thing that h dominions, make of the the laws had since a great I and Ireland, e here spoken 3S passed their er Canada?— ed by citizens being passed, ;tions received ic and settle in id giving them s of old ioyal- nd lands were those loyalists c sold them, inces of Upper to give the cx- ins, and of the ) encourage the :;laniations were niudo made after the division of the provinces of Uppur mid l,owi'r Cnnda; and I mean to state, that it was not and could not he the ulijt'ct of the statute of 1791 to reserve the province of Lower Cana'a to the FriMich (/'iituidian», itiasmuch as that would have been doing for a French colony iiioro tlian ISritain ever did for an English colony, and inasmuch as express |)r(ivi)tiotm went made of reserves for the Protestant clergy, and other mutters inconsiiiteut with nucIi an ulijcct ; and as also it was expressly declared by Mr. Pitt to be " his iiitctitidn to assimilate the Canadians to the language, the manneri, tlio habits, and above all, to the laws and constitution of Great Uritain." Ho stated tiiJM (•xpresNly in Parliament at the time that the Bill of 1791 was under discuxNion in tlits country ; and I am con- vinced that whatever nation, be it Franctt or \w it J'',iiglontl, Mhall endeavour to establish or rear up a French nation in Notlh Aniiiricn, will ultimately incur the lasting enmity, not only of that brunch of tli*i glfat English national family which now exists inuependently in North Aun'iidi, l/iil uUo of our own colonies ; since the latter would be ultimately exposed to uk niiicli injury I'loin the existence of a French nation in North America as the United Stiilcs would be. What is the present practice, are the citizens of llio United States in the habit of settling in the province of Lower Cunadii (~ They occHsionally come in and make purchases of lands, but not in tlie sauie umniu'r us it was anticipated at the time those proclamations were issued that they would have done. Those proclamations offered them a speeilie (•iicnuragemcnt, and now they would come in merely a.s purchasers or settlers upon the same terms as other people? — Yes. In point of fact, do they now come in in considerablti numbers? -I have not been resident in the townships for a considerable length of tinu', and I cannot say in what numbers they come, but many of them must he desirable settlers for a new country. Are not the best settled townships those wliicli run iiliing the American border? — The most populous of the townshi|)s are those, Do not they sell their produce, and get munufuelures from the American side? — They do very frequently, and in fact tiiey could not dtt otherwise unless they were to dispense with manufactures altogether ; becau-m there are s( arcely any roads whereby they can communicate with the markets in ('iiimda during the sunnner; and there are roads whereby they can commiMiicatti with tlic nuirkels elsewhere, so that necessarily they are often obliged to get their supplies i'rom America. Is not the consequence of that, that they arc supphcd with American maim- factures, or with English manufactures, wliiili liiivc paid duty to the American (iovernment? — I daresay that that is the case fre(|mtnlly, Are they not divided from the seigneuries by hirgt; tracts of uninhabited country ? — The townships nearest the seigneuries are Ihi' least inhabited. I cannot say that the townships are divided from the seigneuries, becuuse llicy extend to them; but that part of them that is near the seigneinies isgen(!rally uniulnibited, and those at a distance are best inhabited. Is not that the great difficulty that English settlers nu-et with, that the Covcrn- ment does not make roads across the unsettled districts r^That is one of the difficulties certainly. In what manner do they wish the funds to hi! raised to imikc those roads ?— There are various modes in which, I dare say, tiny would Im! satisfied that a fund should be raised. If there was a small tax iuqiusi'd upon all landi that have been granted, whether now in the bands of alisenteos (tr others, (which I believe is the case in Upper Canada,) to be laid out in improving lliu roads, I hulicvc it would be satisfactory. lias that ever been proposed in the House of Assembly ? — I believe not; I do not know however. Do you think there is any party that would oliject to that ? — I dare there is. Would not those persons be the principal oppomiits who hold those tracts of country which are not at present settled r - Siinie of them might very prol)ably Iw amongst the number of the opponents, I ciuuiol .ay ihat all would. Speaking for myself, who am an absentee aad have lands ihiMc, I cerliiinly should rojuicc that a tax were imposed upon all th lands that I have towjiids roud^, provided only a similar tax were ini|)i)S(:d upc , all other land.i. Woidd not >u(h ,1 measure opeialc hellrr ilmn llic Imv yl' i;ichc:it wliic!< '/")■ V' wa,i Hamucl Cule, Eiq. 13 ^fay )8.i8. say I Samuel Gnir, 13 May 18'iB. 1 I ;}4 MINUTKS (»l KVIDKNC K MKI'OHK liKLIXT CUMMlTTEli \va<« paHHeil in thf Inipt^riul I'nrli.kiniiil r I do not hcc tlint on(! of those laws oiifrht to prevent the t>|)(.'riition nl tlic nllici ; | tliink tlint hoth might exist with advanta^^e at the siune lime, \i u|mn iiroper itnd int principles. Would nut such u luw he more illiiiu ioiix to\vitrd<« the iinprovenunt of the country'' — I tliiuk it would he luoie elfhmioiio towimU the improvement of the country, it univerftully iind inipurliully iiirned into elVect, iind us one absentee huldin); lands I should ntjoiee ut uny nucIi tax tor that purpoNe. You have stated tliut it would hit very dei«irulilo to levy u tux upon land gene- rally for the purpose of making rouiU of (uuninunicution ; do you nut consider that it would be highly desirahlf; that the laniU reNcrvod to the (Jrown, and the reserves belonging to the clergy, Nhould be wubjeet to the name neccNHity of contribution towards the roads in their inmiediate neighbourhood } All that would be highly advantageous tu the community, no doubt, whether it would be Wut to the Crown is another matter. lias not a small land-tax been iiu|)iiMed in thu Upncr Province upon lands and property of individuals left waste 1'— I believe there nns. Can you state what have been the renulu of that tax- -I ciinnot; I liclieve it has not been long in operation ; but 1 have tio doid)t that if it hud been impo.sed upon proper principles, so us to be fully and I'airly exceuied, the result nuist have been higidy advantageous, because it has been proved to be so throughout the rest of Uic continent of North America. As far as you know, with repect to I'pper Canada, linve tiic clergy and Crown reserves materially impeded tlu iornuttions of great lines of communication?— I believe that those reserves have very uiiivli impeded the lines of conmiunicution, and it is inevitable. The petitioners apply that courts of juriidirtion should be established in the townships for the administration of justice, in conformity tu the laws of England ; does not that involve the establishment of judges, and the whole .system of English judicature ? — I should suppose tlint tu be their meaning. In the case of any war breaking out helween the United States and Great Britain, and an attack being made on ( 'anadn, is it not generally understood tliat the line of the Richelieu is the one by which ('anuda is must accessible, and that which it is most desirable to strengthen and securer — 1 believe it has always been considered so ; fortifications have been always made there. During the time of the French, fortifications were made there, and they have continued to be made on that river ever since thu acquisition of (.'aiuula by the Knglish. Is it not desirable, with the view to the defence of Canada, that the townships should be peopled and st^iigthenetl as nni(;li as possible ?— I consider that the security of any country depends upon the arniH auti hearts of its inhabitants; and I conceive that the filling of a country with u loyal population is an infinitely better means of defence than all the money that could \w expended upon fortifications in it. Is not the line of the Uiver UiclnUeu chiefly occufued by the seigneuries at present? — It is. Does not the district of the townships in I.ower Canada lie between the American frontier and the line of the seigneuries on the St. Lawrence? — It does, on the south side of the river. Although the inmiediate line of the llivcr Uichelieu is now occupied with seigneuries, in the case of any attack being made along that valley, would not Canada be rendered infinitely more secure, if the country at the back of the seigneuries, now hehi in townships, were filled with a powerful and active popu- lation r—1 can only sav, us I said before, that the arnis and the hearts of a loyal Eeople arc the best defence of it country, and the greater their numbers the etter. Are you not of opinion, that an improvement of the law would luad to the colo- nization of that part of the country which, for the grounds stated, you consider desirable? — There is no rintiple. 'Vheu such bills are introduced in the United States, even upon the ilcniocratic j)rinci])le of universal sufl'rage, which could not be justifiable in C'ai lu, they always provide a corrective for any alteiation that may take place in the |joj)\dation. 'ihey do not make the laws which give a r«'presentation proportionate- to the j)()pulation, rest permanently on the population at tlic time the Acts ure passed, but they provide at the same time a census t!uU shall be taken every three or four years, according to which the re- presentation is to adapt itself, so that if there \w any diH'erence in the population of the respective di>itricts within three or four years, there is a self corrective applied to the renresentation. That was not the case in this bill in Lower Canada, it was a bill nearly founded \ipon tin,' state of the population in the present day, which might alter in a new country so as to be totally difi'erent in the space of four or liv«! years, and no provision was made for any ■ uch alteration. Hesides, even in several of the United States, the principle of universal suHVage is conceived to be rather too democratic in that democratic country, as appears from what I have stated to be the case in Vermont, where the representation is territorial or coin- poimded of the territory and the population Have not what is called the French party in the House of Assembly declared their willingness to give up any advantage they may possess I'rom the property being cliicHy in their hands, and to proce(>d upon the principle of taking popida- tion as the basis ol representation in that country: — With regard to property, I do not know nor believe that a larger or even so large a proportionate share of the landed property is in their hands ; and I l)elieve that tlic Knglish only desire a territorial representation, that is, that certain extents of country should be laid out lilir liiii ON TMK Civil, CJOVKRNMRNT OK CANADA. $r I of two jjiven to Inion the it in one t wish to ) incrouMe Hystiin of 1)11 to the t country '}\ ut tint, ivt'M, they e number y to what u|)war(ls. (I of that kil to the be addei) nhiibilants ■turned by on of the ml French under this e memlK'rs while only send none » increase ; ast stated, n the Slate ; rcprtsen- Scotchnian ;ion of that resentation nrnlate that • that there introduced al suff'rape, rrectivc for ike the laws lanently on same time licli the re- population f corrective ^»r Canada, )resent day, ace of four esides, even onccivcd to what I have rial or coui- ly declared the property cing popula- to property, rate share of 1 only desire ijuld be laid out 4 3 1 uut as counties, wliieh is n practice sometimes followed even in the United States; tliat the counties siiould be as nearly ecpial as may he, and that when the counties have a ci^rtain proportion of population they should then send members, but not until they liavc a certain proportion of population. Would not that have the cfl'eet of giving undue weight in the House of Assembly to newly peopled counties?— Not by any means an undue weight. It is considered right, ns I have already stated, that those counties, of which previously less has been ascertained, and for which previously less has been done, should be enabled to make their wants known and attended to, and the circum- stances that have occurred in Lower Canada show the necessity of it, because for u long scries of years the inhabitants of the townships have been unavail- ingly endeavouring to procure redress of grievances from the House of Assembly; they employed some years ago un agent at Quebec for that purpose, as people might employ an agent to make representations to a distant country, but he could only solicit, without having an opportunity of bringing any thing forward in the Legislature. \)o you conceive then that the iidiabitnnts of the Knglish townships ought to have a number of members in the House of Assembly, beyond the proportion that their population bears to the population in the I'rench part of the country? — I do not think in a new country that to regulate the rejiresentation by the popu- lation is a mode that will most tend to advance it ; the most beneHcial mode, as it appears to me, must be one in which representatives may be brought as early as propriety will permit trom new setliemenls, which stand more in need of legislation and of help than the old. Then you think a representation compounded of population and territory is the representation mo.st suited to the wants of a new country ?— I think it is the only representation suited to the wants of a new country. \Vith regard to what yoti have stated with respect to Vermont, are you aware how things stand in that respect in (he other states of North America? — I am not aware how it is in fjeneral. I passed through Vermont in coming to this country, and in passing through i naturally in(|uircd into the state of their representation, and I found it to be as I have mentioned. In Vermont they have as much reason to be jealous of allowing foreigners, who come into that country and reside only a couple of years, this territoriul right in the represen- tation, as any English colony could have any title to be jealous of allowing a representation to native British subjects. Do you conceive that in any other State in the I'nion the newly and thinly settled parts of the State have given to them a larger share in the representation, in proportion to their population, than the older settled parts of that State ? — I believe that is the case. Can yo>i mention any other instance of it? — I cannot stale any instance posi- tively. I have understood this to be the case, that in some of the States the counties arc all laid out of equal extent, even before they all are inhabited, and that the law establishes, that as soon as a county shall contain a certain number of inhabitants il shall be entitled to have a representative. If they, who allow in many of their States foreigners to become naturalized in one, two or three years, do not object to this mode of sendin;» representatives, in an English colony it could hardly seem justly exceptionable, when the settlers in whose favour it is desired are either Englishmen or Scotchmen. Is not that at present the law in Upper Canada? — I dare say it is somewhat similar to that. In Upper Canada they would probably have no strong objection to the division I am speaking of; and there could be little objection to it in Lower Canada, except that which would arise from a wish to exclude English representatives. There may be these considerations to influence them in tnose countries where the sections that send representatives are laid out of a certain extent throughout ; they consider that although at first the representation may be >met[ual in j)roportion to numbers, yet that this is a defect which every year is diminishing, and which is in some measure compensated by equality of territory, and that it is the mode that is best adapted to the progress of new settlements. AVhat is the size of the county of Orleans ? — I believe it is not ecjual to a single township of lo miles square in extent; it sends one representative. What is the size of the county of Huckingham? — It contains a number of .^eigiieuries. and I believe about 70 townships in addition to the seigneuries. Etq. 13 Miiy i8j8. .■)''!J- V. What \ Samuel Oale, 13 May i8i8 1 !!: \ ''4 4 ■ M ■ ' ' ii 1 H 1 !;i(l L LM 38 MINUTI'S OF EVIDKNCK BEFOllK SELIiCI' COMMITTEE What number of members does that send to Parliament 1 — It sends two. What is the size of eacli of the townshi|)s? — 1 believe the general rule is 10 miles square. Can you furnisli the Committee with a copy of the census of the population to wli'ch reference was made in your former evidence r — I will deliver in a copy of it (/Ac xi'H)ics.i dclhcred in the sainc). I believe, as far as the townships are con- cerned, there is inaccuracy in that census ; there could not have been the same facility in asccrtainini^ the numbers of those that were dispersed over an immense extent of country, as there would be in ascertaining the luimbers of those who live along the banks of the river, where it must be comparatively easy to make the enumeration. If a. system was applied to Lower Canada similar to that which you describe to exist in Upper Canada, and in the State of Vermont, namely, that of giving the power to send representatives from any townships that might hereafter be settled and inhabited, according to a compound scale of territory and population, is it likely that in that immense tract of country that lies to the north of the St. Law- rence, such a ntnnber of townships would hereafter be settled as to create an Assembly far too numerous.- — 1 should not conceive that the Assembly would be more numerous ii. that w.iy, (each county comprising several townships, and entitled to representation only when possessed of a certain population,) than when a certain measure was spoken of in the Parliament in this country some years ago, it was presumed that it would be : besides, if the present counties were to be diminished in extent, it could not be wrong to diminish tlie number of ii.eir members, which would allow .some to be given to new counties, without, /;;•« tanto, increasing the total number of representatives. Do you refer to the Union ? — Yes. There was, I believe, a roc^mmcndation to the Committee of the Hou.se of Assembly to take into consideration il'e pro- priety of authorizing the Governor to e pro- tics, {^ivinfr election of jrnrncnt?- — ttee of the mpower the lach county iven to the ovcrnor, as ,t they were the elective nice is so xercise the )e perfectly ■ir going up alone were the present to be set- jns of acres ud extensive nay and the ;d over that it the country lut the return iliy be ; have of ret ruing ax : — 1 never ?il T. •^v.^.h a till' case any ^'ou You have stated that you are chairman of the quarter sessions ?—l urn, for the district of Montreal. Was it by Lord Dalhousie that you were appointed ? — It was, Wliat is the tenure of that situation ? — I believe that all situations in Canada are held during pleasure. Since I am asked respecting the appointment, I may be allowed to state that I did not solicit the appointment ; it was offered to me ; when offered I declined it, but accepted it after the offer was renewed with urgency. Is your salary paid out of the 1 4th of George 3, or out of the money appro- priated by the Legislature? — I of course take it that this forms a part of the expense of the maintenance of the civil government, and the administration of jus- tice. I take for granted that it is considered payable out of the permanently appropriated funds. Are you at all acquainted with the establishments in Lower Canada for educa- tion? — I believe there are four Romish colleges or seminaries for the education of youth. There are also a number ofcorporations, one m each parish; by an Act of the Legislature in 1824, the fabrique, as it is called, of the parish forms a corporation entitled to receive donations and bequests, and acquire property in mortmain to a limited extent, for the advancement of education. Those are the Iloman (Jatholic parishes ; the funds so received are to he at the disposal of the fabrique for the purposes of education. Have any steps been yet taken in the application of those funds?— I do not know whether much funds have been realized as yet. There are no English colleges in Lower Canada, but there has been an Act passed for the advancement of learning so long ago as 1801, under which a number of common schoolmasters are appointed. Do you mean English schoolmasters? — I believe generally English. It is a language highly necessary to be taught in seignorial Canada. Who appoints them? — I believe the Governor appoints those schoolmasters. What establishments are there for the education of the lower orders in the French part of Lower Canada?— All those seminaries and colleges that I have been speaking of, besides numbers of the schools under the Act of 1801, and the schools that may be established under the Act with respect to the fabriques, making them corporations entitled to receive in mortmain. Is there not a considerable property in Lower Canada that, before the expulsion of the Jesuits in Lower Canada, was possessed by them ? — Yes. When the Jesuits were expelled, did that property pass into the hands of the Government? — A decree of the Pope's annihilated the order. But I believe that the English Government always allowed the Jesuit missionaries to remain in pos- session until the death of the last of them ; upon the death of the last of the order the Government of course took possession of the estates. How has that property been applied since it was in possession of the Govern- ment ? — The greater part of the net revenue arising from those estates has been employed, as I have understood, in the advancement of education. Jovis, 15' die MaiJ, 1828. Edward Ellice, Esq. called in ; and Examined. THE Committee understand you are a proprietor of land in Lower Canada r — EdwardEllice, I am a proprietor of land in both Upper and Lower Canada. Esq^ Do you hold land in the seigneuries of Lower Canada as well as in the town- ^ ^ ships?— In both. 15 May i8a8. In what part of Lower Canada is it situated ?— I hold the last seigneury bor- dering upon Upper Canada, called Beauharnois; it lies about 18 miles above Montreal, on the southern bank of the River St. Lawrence. Did you acquire it by purchase ?— No, I inherited it. Have you frequently been in the province of lower Canada?— I have been there twice. For any considerable time?— I wa.s in Canada and the adjoining state of New York about a year each time. Have you paid much attention to the admini.stration of property and the state ot tiic law thtiv?— A good deal, bting vtiv mucli interested in it." •'*'!'• E 4' You Eduinrd KUiee, Kit/, 12 M«}r i8aM, I 1} 40 MINUTES OF EVIUKNCE BEFORE S'iLECT COMMITTEE Yoii lire nware that, by an Act that was called " The Canada Tenures Act," fiowoM were ^iven to transfer land held under the title of " Seigneury" to that of roe and common soccage? — A clause was passed to that efliect at my suggestion in the ('unada Trade Act in 1822, and subsequently the Canada Tenures Act was paNHcd in 1825. Ilttvc you acted upon that? — I have endeavoured to act upon both, but Jie diflicultit'H in the way of taking advantage of the provisions ot cither Act have been so great, that in utter despair of being able to obtain a mutation of tenure, I have, within the last year, directed the settlements to proceed upon the old Nyotein, although I conceive it was greatly to the disadvantage of the counlry and of the property itself. Will you be so good as to describe what you mean by the word settlements ? — i'^arms let to tenants of land not before occupied or brought into a state of culti- viitiun. From my father's deaA, in 1804, till 1826, a period of 22 years, I gave directions to grant no new leases, expecting that at some future period the tenures would be clianged ; and, acting upon that principle, I have made a great sacrifice of income during that period. In the year 1826, after fruitless efforts to obtain a change in the tenure, in the first place under the Act of 1822, and then under the Act of 1825, I directed my agents to proceed in conceding the lands upon the old tenure ; and by a return I have of the concessions made in 1827, I find 2'jH new farms have been conceded to an equal number of tenants, containing u NUpcriicial quantity of nearly 20,000 acres of land, and for which I obtain n |icrpetual rent of about 500 /. a year. Will you be so good as to describe the character of the obstructions which have |)revented the provisions of the Act, called " The Canada Tenures Act," from lieing carried into effect? — Instructions were sent, as I understand, to the local government to carry into effect the provisions of the Act of i8'22. The Governor Nuhmitted those instructions to his executive council, who advised that a fine of one fifth of the value of the property for which a change of tenure was desired Hhould be required as the condition of the cession of the rights of the Crown in Nitch case;. Considering that to be more than five or six limes the value of the exchange, I declined it. I then made an application to the Colonial Department, Ktating the little probability of any changes of tenure taking place while such terms were required, and that I did not know a single person in Lower Canada, except myself, at that time dispo.sed to accept a change for nothing. In conse- (pience of my representations, other instructions were sent, desiring the Govern- ment to oH'er a mutation at the lower fine of five per cent upon the value, and I might have been disposed, for the sake of showing an example to the country, lit accept the change upon those terms, but my agent found so many other diffi- i;ulties interposed by tliu local authoriiies, that all further attempts appeared liupcless ; and he represented to me the little chance there was of any ultimate arrangement on the subject repaying the great sacrifices of rent I was making in the mcnntimc, by deferring the settlement of the land. Arc you not aware of an Act which passed in the British Parliament in the year 1 825, for the express object of facilitating a mutation of tenures ? — I have already stated I was aware of it, and in consequence of that .'^ct I desired my agent to renew the attempt, giving him instructions at the same time to proceed with settlements under the old tenure, if his endeavours were still fruitless, in consequence of which the new settlements in 1827 were made. Can you state what reasons were given explaining the impossibility of carrying the Act into execution? — W-thout referring to the particular letters, I cannot say, but the impression upon my mind is, that my agent being very anxious to comply with my wishes of obtaining a change of tenure, wrote to me generally that it was utterly hopeless. Do you conceive that that difficulty of changing the tenure since the passing of tln! Act of i82(> aro.se from any defect in the Act? — The difficulty of changing the tenure arose, in my opinion, from no defect either in the Act of 1822 or of I H'iH, it aro.se proliably from a very general cause of difticulty in that country ; a dread on the part of the local authorities 'o act upon their own responsibility, complaining of defective instructions from .home ; and this aggravated by a perpe- tual ■•efcrence biici; wards and forwards from the (iovernment to the Colonial Secre- tary, in the liope tiiat they might at last agree upon the means of executing the |>ii»*. iiioiis of tin- liiw. Ate ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 41 ; Act," that of gestion LCt was but ihe ct have tenure, the old liry and lents ?— of culti- i, I gave ; tenures sacrifice to obtain en under nds upon [7, I find ontaining 1 1 obtain hicli have let," from ) the local Governor it a fine of as desired J Crown in ilue of the lepartment, while such cr Canada, In conso- le Goveru- value, and lie country, other diffi- 8 appeared my ultimate s 'making in iicnt in the gs f — I have desired my 2 to proceed fruitless, in of carrying , cannot say, us to comply lerally that it le passing of of changing f 1S22 or of at country ; a esponsibiliiy, d by a perpe- olonial Secre- execuliug the Aic Are the Committee fo understand that the powers of that Act of Parliament are not sufficiently clear to enable the Governor to carry them into effect without any doubt as to authority from this side of the water? — In my apprehension, the pro- vision in the Act of 1832 «a8 sufficiently clear for a government that would have acted with any promptitude and energy, and would have felt interest in the object in view. You have said that your application was referred to the consideration of the executive council; of whom does the executive council consist? — I have only said, 1 understood it vvao so referred. The council consist of the chief justice and other persons, whose uuty it is to advise the Governor with respect to the administration of the country. Are the executive council persons holding salaries as such ? — I rather think they are, but I am not certain. Do you happen to know whether any attempt to change the tenure of land under that Act has been successful, although your own attempt has failed ? — I am sure nc other attempt has been made. In suggesting the provision for the volun* tary exchange of tenures in 18c 2, 1 intended to show an example to the country, as largely interested in landed property, and I did not expect that at first, or until they were convinced of the ddvantages of a mutation of tenure, any great number of proprietors in Canada would follow my example. In your view, would it be an advantageous proceeding to change the tenure of land held in the seigneuries, which has been in a state of cultivation, as well as of land which has not? — Looking to the state of property and the improvement of the country from a change of tenure, my views at the time were principally directed to the two great cities of Montreal and Quebec, and to the property in the island of Montreal. The Crown or the Church, but now, I believe, the Crown solely has the right of seigneurage over those two seigneuries, and of course has the power of conceding its rights upon any terms that might be supposed benefi- cial to the country. The chief obstacle to the improvement of Lower Canada arises from the objections of British-born subjects to the investment of the large profits that have resulted to them from the trade of the country in real property, and the impediments to the circulation of capital so invested, by the provisions of the feudal tenures, and the heavy fines on every alienation. No house can be sold in Montreal or Quebec, or no farm in the island of Montreal, without paying a heavy fine ; and to make the case worse, a doubt has hitherto existed as to the right of the seminary who held the seig^o^y of Montreal to exact these fines ; but no purchaser would accept a title unless the fine due by the previous pur- chaser had been voluntarily paid. The fine is 12 J per cent, but frequently mo- dified by compromise. As the population of the island of Montreal consists of about 50,000 persons, and of Quebec of about 25,000, a large proportion of the whole population of Lower Canada, and as there is a greater mass of capital in these two cities than in all the rest of Canada, it appeared to me a great object to endeavour to release the property from the shackles of the old tenures, so that capital might be invested in it, and be employed in its improvement, instead of being sent out of the country, as it invariably is now, for investment in England. I hoped that the Crown, having the power, would have consulted the obvious interest of the country by encouraging mutations of tenure on easy terms, and that by degrees proprietors in other districts would have been convinced, by the increasing prosperity and improvement of the towns and the adjacent lands, of the advantages of a better system, and have been induced to promote a general change. I may add, that the depreciation of property in the towns has been frightful of late years, and I can see nothing in the present state of Canada likely to produce a different state of things, except by the removal of the existing impediments to the application of capital to the improvement of the country. I conceive that if the tenures upon the island of Montreal were converted into Iree and common soccag"., and a registry was provided for the registration of titles and mortgages, that the improvement of that part of Canada, and its advance in wealth and population, would be as rapid as that which has taken place in any other part of America. ^yas there any doubt that the Crown had the power to grant those mutations ? — There was never any doubt that ihe Crown might have made an equitable arrangement with the seminary, to have given the Government power to act as they pleased with respect to the property in the seigneury of Moa'lrcal. i' Has Edward KlUee, E*q. IS May i8t8. 5<'9. 4a MIM'TKS OF EVIDENCE UEFUUE SELECT COMiVlITTEE Edviard F.llicf, Esq. llfis nny adjustment ol this point tulicu place r lately taken place. -I understand that one lius 15 May i3a8. 'I Can you describe the nature of the claim of the Jesuif- ? — I understand tliu seigneury of the island of Montreal was first granted to the seminary at Montreal for purposes connected with the Roman Catholic church, and education under itM direction. Doubts subsequently arose, during the French Revolution, as to the rights of persons claiming to be successors to the original grantees ; and of course if these rights were extinguished, the |)roperty would have reverted to \\w Crown. When you alluded to a claim on the part of the clergy, did you allude to the Roman Catholic clergy or the Protestant? — The Roman Catholic; and I think it necessary to state, that when I talk of the claims of the Roman Catholic clergy in Canada, I do not believe a more liberal, benevolent, or charitable body of ChriH' tian ministers exist in any country, or one whose conduct and habits are mure exemplary or praiseworthy ; and I am persuaded they will be found at all timet* disposed to lend themselves, consistently with the interests of their religion and church, to every measure for the improvement and advantage of tht r country. Is there any reason to suppose that it is a fear of the loss which the public pro' perty might suffer which induces the Government to hesitate in making tnoHC mutations? — It cannot be so. As the best answer to that question, however, I would recommend the Committee to desire a return of the revenue which the Crown ha.<» derived from all its property in Canada within the last 30 years. Do you know, as matter of fact, whether any disputes have arisen with respect to titles to property in the island of Mortreal, as between the Crown or the clergy, and individuals holding such property? — A few years ago, 1 think four or fivp, a person built a mill in the island of IVIontreal ; and as the Committee are aware, among other rights of seigneurage, the droit de mouUure is conspicuous. The seminary conceiving the erection of such a mill encroached upon their privileges, brought an action against the party building it, either for damages or to procure the removal of the mill. The proprietor defended the suit, a .d judgment wa» given against him by the Court of Montreal, before whom the case was tried. The proprietor appealed to the Court of Appeal at Quebec. On hearing the appeal, the French judges present all sustained the judgment of the court below ; the English judges objected to it. No decision has yet been had, and the matter is still in abeyance, the proprietor remaining in possession of his mill. Does the same sort of uncertainty prevail generally with rospcct to the tenure of property in the seig^euries, or is that only a particular and isolated case ?> — I should say that the particular point on which this action turned was, whetliep the church could sue as a corporation. This, of course, would only affect property similarly situated. Therefore, in cases in which an individual could sue, such uncertainty would not exist? — I hold, that as seigneur myself, I could prevent not only any peivuu building a mill, but any tenant taking his corn to be ground at any other than thtj scigneurial mill. A principal part of the seigneur's revenue is derived from tliiJ droit de moulture. Can you state the proportion of real property in the great towns of Quebec and Montreal which is held bj- Uritish persons, or by the Crown, as seigneur? — Either the Crown, or the Cro»n and the Church, hold the whole of Montreal and Qnebi'e as seigneurs ; no person has any superior right, except the Crown, in those townn, Can you state what proportion is held by persons of British birth or origin, an contradistinguished from the French Canadians, as the immediate teuanLs of tlu' Crown ?— I cannot even guess ; but I should rather be inclined to think that much the greatest quantity of real property was held by the FVench Canadian*, the English inhabitants having objections to invest their property on such titles, Can you point out any means by which the difficulties that now impede thJM cliange of tenure can be removed ? — I was always of opinion that a dftlniled instruction transmitting the Act of 182J to the Governnu'iit of Canada, mieh instruction being founded upon the legal information of the chief law ofticei'it of the Crown in Canada, who were then accidentally in England, directing the Covernment forthwith to carry the provisions of that Act into executimi, would have been sufficient ; and I advised at the time of the framing a proclaniatiou iu this country to be transmitted to Canada, and there issued for that purpose, You I r. ON TflK CIVIL (iOVJCRNMENT OF CANADA. 43 ue lius uu\ the ioiitrenl iiiler iU ) to llie iiiiil '•! d to {\\v le to tilt' think it :lergy \n jf Chrid' are mufu u\l timeu igion ftiul miitry. ublic pro- ling those however, which tlie ears. ith respect the clergy, our or five, are aware, lous. The privileges, r to procure dgment wi»» i wfts tried, hearing the ■ourt below ; i the matter he tenure of ted caser - ms, whether I'ect property •tainty wouUl any percuu ther thnn »ho vcd fi'oi» t''** Quebec ftiul ur'r— Either and Quebec those towns. . or origin, n* cuants of the ink that much anadiuns, the titles. impeile this at II delftiU^ Cunadu, such law oflicers ol' directing the eciitiim, woulJ a pioclttumtiou t purpose. :u You used the expression " dctiiilcd instruction," can you point out what pro- visions those details should contain f -Such provisions as tiic competent legal, Rutliorities wlio were then upon the upot niiuht have advised to be sufficient to carry into effect the proviHions of tin Act which they themselves had framed. Do you think it woukl he desiriihlo that the Crown should make the mutations without taking any line wlii'tever ?-=On gcnrrnl principles, I think the Crown should make the mutation on such conditions us were most likely to be acceptable to the mass of persons holding property under the old tenure, and likely to encourage them in accepting the niutiUion. Although you do not know, in point of fact, nny other exact impediment which stands in the way of those niiitntions, ciin you, from your knowledge of the subject, imagine any which you think profmhiy have impeded it? — I can conceive no others than I have stated. What do you suppose to be the viiliic of the Crown's interest in the property so proposed to be changed ? — The Crown is entitled to one fifth of the value oi all seigneuries disposed of by sale ; but the magnitude of the fine is in itself a bar to frequent transfers of property. Upon the scigncury which I have in Canada, one fine of about 900/. has been paid within the last forty years. There are also means of evading the fine, and the amount is In fact more nominal than real, as a com- promise generally takes place before (i sale. The seigneur can concede his pro- perty, reserving the smallest possihh nominal rent, so that the Crown's fine upon any disposal of that small reserved rent would be very trifling ; but some general estimate of the whole value of those fines to the Crown in Canada, can be obtained by a return of their amount since the eountry has been in our possession. The right of the seigneur to a fine of one twelfth on every mutation is much more valuable, because the tenant has no power in any way to evade it. Mutations naturally take place of small tenements either by forced sale or by sale for division among families. The seigneur's line also always increases with the increasing value of the improvements upon the nropertv, so that in point of direct interest the title tinder which the seigneur holds ids lands by the French law is more advantageous than it woidd be under the change of tenure. The land is let at a perpetual reserved rent, with other rights, such (is the droits de moulture, de retraite, and fines on mutation, and which, taken together, return him a greater portion of his revenue than the rent ; whereas, if ho disposed of his land in free and common soccnge in a new country, he probtthly would not get much more than the rent he now receives, without the other sources of revenue. Notwitlistanding llic value of those advantages, would you as seigneur have been willing to have sufl'ered the mutation of land to have been made on your own jiroperty, and to have sullered iMMSons to hold under you in free and common soccagc, althougli thereby you would Imve resigned yoi>r right? — Most undoubt- edly I would, becau.se it would have h'd to the introduction of greater capital, and to the improvement of the purl of the property, which would have given mc great advontages in the disposal of tin; rniuaindcr. Can you give the (Jommiltee nny idea of what that land which you have described as having let for Hd. an ftere would have sold for in free and common floccagor— I should suppose it would Imve sold from 1.5.?. to a guinea an acre; 1 have, as I have described to the Coiiiniitlte, a great mass of land held in free (ind common soccage inimediutely adjoining my soigncury. Some difTiculties had occurred with respect to the title of this property, which prevented me for many years attempting to settle it. Those difiieulties I think, after 20 years application, have been removed by the (iovcrnineiit of (^nrbcc, and I am now endeavouring to settle this land upon the terms on which 1 jiroposcd to setUe the seigneury if 1 had succeeded in obtaining a luiitiUioii of tenure ; but what will .still more strongly exemplify the advnnliiges lliiit would result to the country from a change of system, and more liberal iiistitulioiis, i^ the I'nrt that there is no difficulty in making sales of laud, interior in ^ier terms with the intermediate tenant, the tenant would be disposed to make easier terms with his sub-tenants? — I do not think it would make the least ditl'erence. The right of the seigneur, as I havt already explained to the Committee, is of great value to him, and the value of right of the Crown is, practically speaking, nearly nominal ; and if great encouragement is not given by the Crown, except in the cities of Montreal and Quebec, where persons may be desirous to invest capital for profitable employment, very few mutations would take place. Are not the persons who hold under a seigneur entitled, by the Cth Geo. 4, to comprl the seigneur to a mutation of title? — When I first suggested this alteration, it was with a view to the general improvement of the country ; and the release of the rights of the Crown to the seigneur would conduce comparatively little to this end, unless the tenant had some power of emancipating himself from the shackles oi" his tenure. Much greater advantage would result from the general surrender of their feudal rights by the seigneur, than from any emancipation of particular seigneurs by the Crown. Do you conceive that the great mass of the vassals in the seigneuries arc desirous of any change in this respect, or not ? — I conceive that a very small portion of the country population, lor many years, would take advantage of the change, until they were convinced of the benefit their neighbours derived from being subject to no fines on mutations ; and by their own experience of paying repeated fines, from which adjoining property was exempt. Is not that principle of the French Coutume de Paris to discourage mutations in property as much as possible, the very principle that attaches the French po|)u- lation to the present state of law in that country ? — That principle, so contrary to all the principles upon which the British Government have proceeded in the government of their other Colonics, has tended to retard the improvement of Lower Canada, while the improvement of other piirts of America has been advancing with rapid strides ; and although I should be as adverse as any one to deal forcibly with the prejudices and feelings of the Canadians, who certainly are attached to, and imagine themselves interested in, the preservation of their present system, still, as a matter of necessity, time will so deal with them, unless they can accommodate themselves to a gradual amelioration, either under our Government or under some other. Is there any thing in this Act that would do more than make it optional ; would not the Canadians, if they like this tenure, be fully at liberty to continue under it? — I have already stated, that in suggesting this alteration originally, I was no party to any thing that could by any possibility be supposed compulsory ; and that I should only propose now to deal with the Canadians by showing them Uie advantages to be derived under a better system, which prevailed among their neighbours. Can you stale whether the tenure upon which land is now held in the town^ ships is liable to any objection ? — There have been great doubts w ith respect to the titles to property held under British grants in Lower Canada, and with respect to the laws affecting them. Until the Canada Tenures Act of l8'i5, I do not believe any person holding real property in free and common soccage in Canada knew very well by what law his property was regulated. Nor could I tell whether the property I held in free and common soccage would have descended or been governed by the French civil law, or the law of England. All transactions relating to such property, with very few exceptions, have been conducted upon the j)rinciplc of their having been governed by English law ; but no decisions to my knowledge hud !ln|| its rights ion. mcl from I be right r cent? — • my own , whether itation on sug(:^e»tc(l ;d part ol" n Canada, terms with terms with he riglit of at value to y nominal ; ic cities of capital for Cth Geo. 4. gested this ry ; and the .mparatively himself from n the general mcipation of gneuries are a very small intagc of the derived from ice of paying ge mutations l-rench poi)U- io contrary t» :eeded in the iprovement ot rica has been se as any one who certainly vation of their th them, unless her under our itional; would continue under mally, I was no >mpulsory; and wing them the 3d among their d in the town.- with respect to and with respect 1825, 1 do not cage in Canada Id I tell whether ,'scended or been _isactions relating pen the principle to my knowledge hud ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 45 LI had taken place in any court in Canada until the bill of 1825 set this question at rest. Doubts have also been expressed as to the riglits and pouers of the seigneurs, in leasing and disposing of their property under the French law, which are frequently made the subject of public discussion in times of excitement, but which have never been brought to any judicial decision. Some of the French lawyers state their doubts whether seigneurs who have been in possession ever since the English occupation of Canada, and who have varied and increased their rents according to the circumstances of the times, had any right to do so. They allege this property is held solely in trust for the settlement of it by the poorer class of people, and that an Oidonnance du Roi, published above a century ago, but which has never been acted upon in Canada, should now regulate all transactions between the seigneur and his tenant, and that the seigneur has no right to require or receive a higher rent than was then customary. The praetice of the country has beenentirely at variance with that rule; but in the later dis- putes that have occurred in Canada, some of my tenants were advised to resist the payment of this rent upon this ground : they did so resist, and my agent was obliged to proceed by law to compel the payment of the rent ; but the proceedings were stopped in their progress by the submission of the tenants. Did the declaratory clause in the Canada Tenures Act affect the rights of any considerable number of Canadians ? — I do not see how it could affect their rights, as it never had been ascertained that lands in free and common soccage were liable to the provisions of the French civil law ; but certainly if they had been so liable, the younger branches of a family, or the mortgagee of a younger son's '-lo- portion in his father's property, would have been left by the provisions of that Act without any protection for his rights. Were there many French Canadians, who by holding lands in the townships, were affected by that declaratory clause? — I should think very few; and I should have no objection, for a very small sum of money, to undertake myself to indemnify all persons who could have any complaint under this clause. Are the Committee to understand that as the law now stands, land in the town- ships could be conveyed fairly and securely according to the English forms of conveyance r — As 1 understand by the provisions of the Act, landed property in free and common soccage would be regulated by the English laws affecting real property, with the exception of a very necessary alteration, that the land would be subject to simple contract debts ; and further, that any land, the title of which might be changed from the feudal tenure to the free and common soccage, would be governed in like manner ; and that would have been a great temptation to me, and would be to all others, to obtain a mutation of tenure. Under those circumstances could a person borrow money on mortgage on pro- perty in the townships? — I should think it would be exceedingly difhcult to borrow money on property in the townships, until a court for the registration of titles is established, by which incumbrances upon real property could be ascer- tained. By the provisions of the French Civil Law every Act passed before a notary (and there are very few Acts relating to money arrangements in Canada that are not passed before a notary) are held to be hypothecary claims affecting the real estate of the parties, and it is impossible at present to guard against the risks resulting from this circumstrnce. If a law were passed to enforce the registry of all transfers of property in Canada, ought it in your opinion to be confined to the townships, or to such lands as vvere held in free and common soccage, or should it extend to the seigneuries ? — There can be no doubt that for the security of the trading part of the community, and to induce capitalists to invest and advance their money on lands, it ought to extend generally to all property ; and more particularly as it is impossible to con- ceive any injury that could result to the owners of property under the feudal tenure by having a record of the sales and the burthens affecting it. I would add, that in the state of New York there are courts of record in every county, and that having had myself much experience and some trouble in tracing the titles to property in various quarters of that state, I have met with the greatest facilities by having recourse to the registers where the record of every mutation of a pro- perty is to be found. You state that of late years a great depreciation of property has taken place in the towns of Quebec and Montreal ?— There has. AVhat has been the cause of that depreciation? — I think, amongst other causes, 109. r 3 the KdwiirH FJlke, Esq- 1 j May i8ii8. 4f' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IJEFOllE SELECT COMMIITEE 15 May i8a8. \y. Edward Mice, the withdrawal of capital from the c -untry, for investment in Eiifjlnnd, and some ^ ^"1' , feeling of insecurity arising from tiie existing disscntions in the government, in addition to the obstacles I have already stated to investments in real property. Do you attribute that to the disputes that have taken place in the country ? — Certainly I attribute some part of it to those disputes. Has not a great loss been sustained by the merchants that continue to reside in Canada? — Of course, great loss has been sustained by all holders of real property in the depreciation of tliat property ; I am not aware of any otiier loss except the losses that have afl'ected all His Alajesty's suljjecLs that have been trading within the last 1 o years. Are you acquainted with the conditions on which the Clovernment grants lands in the townships of Lower Canada? — 1 am ac(|uainted with the subject, as almost the greatest practical grievance of which the industrious population of Canada have to complain. Tlu^se grants have been most inconsiderately and wantonly made in large masses to people connected with (lovernment, without imposing upon them, or at least enforcing after they were imposed, adequate conditions for the settlement and cultivation of the lands ; or without taxing them for the vast pro- perly of which they have got possession, and which lie idle and unimproved, to the grcatdetriment of the country, and to the great nuisance of the inhabitants around. To what extent ha.s this taken place ? — I am afraid in Upper and Lower Canada it has taken place to so frightful an extent that the possession of a great part of the valuable and improvable land is in tiie hands of absentees, which might be otherwise now occupied by industrious and active settlers. Has the land been granted in large masses ? — In great masses. I tliink it would be very right for the Committee to require a return of all the grants that have taken place since General Prescott's time, at least since it has been the fashion for almost every counsellor or officer eoimected with the Government to get a grant of from 5,000 to ao,ooo acres. Is not the condition of escheating to the Crown all lands not improved, in a constant progress of operation ? — I think it is die worst possible process as a remedy for the evil of these large grants ; a much more simple remedy would be to follow the example of the state of New York, in taxing uncultivated lands. By whom were those grants made ? — By the CJovernment there, or by instruc- tions from home. Has that practice existed for a considerable length of time ? — It has existed since land was supposed to be of any value in Canada. It was an easy mode, either of rewarding services, or satisfying jobbers. Are you not aware that there were terms of settlement imposed in all those grants? — T am ([uite aware that in some cases, not in all, terms of settlement were imposed ; but by some strange accident it happens that they never have been enforced, and the greatest portion of these lands is now in a state of wilderness, the proprietors in fe\v instances applying cai)ital to the improvement of them. Within the last two or three years the attention of the Public and the (Jovcrnnient having been called to these abuses, a system of estreats has been resorted to, and it is understood that directions have been sent out to proceed to the forfeiture of all lands on which the duties of settlement have not been performed. The ob- jection to this mode of proceeding is, that the conditions upon which the. grants were originally made having been allowed to remain so long in abeyance, they have almost been forgotten by the proprietors ; and if a rigorous system of Crow n process is to be insisted upon, it will almost be productive of as great and serious a grievance in the country, as the neglect of the provisions for the improvement of the lands ha.s hitherto been. In what respect would it act as a grievance in the country? — Persons having influence cither in the country or at home, (and there are many such who are grantees of this property,) would remonstrate against those proceedings, and according to the prevailing practice in such cases, relief would be given in some instances and none in others, and complaints would necessarily arise, from any apparent partiality, which might even be justified in particular cases. It would be impossible to confide the execution of so wide a discretion, with any hope of its being satisfactorily exeicised by tjje local aiitiiorities. Are mam' of those grantees who have so neglected to ])erforin the conditions under which they have received the grants of land resident in (Janada, or are they pincipally abscutces ? — I should think principally absentees ; some governors of the d some leut, in rty. utry ! — •csidc in property Lcept the ig within nts lands as almost ■ Canada wantonly imposini^ tlitions lor B vast pro- -ed, to the its around, rer Canada eat part of I mis^ht be nk it would that have the fashion nt to get a ifoved, in a as a remedy be to follow r hy instruc- has existed easy mode, ill all those ,t settlement tor have been if wilderness, (.nt of them, (iovcrninent ;orted to, and i forfeiture of d. The ob- jch the. grants iheyance, they ,tem of Crown at and serious iprovemcnt ol K;rsons having , such who are tceedings, and given in some krise, from any ics. It would 111 any hope ol the conditions iida, or are they lie governors of ON TJIE CIVIL CiOVI'.UNMKN'l OF ( ANAIM 47 the colony ; and many grants have been miule iw ii rciiiulUTiition for public services by the (Joveriinient. Aro not tiiusc tract'* of laiiro- lou of the illiout Uic lie state of ncd to my- ually taken rred in tlic proceeding pd upon all Vorl< ; I am i levied and intcd to any I cultivation ; rtain number anted, it has the internal '♦>'• . 1 rment of sucU Iways find out land is a much any other pro- be introduced ssimilating the of some years nmcnt into the ose. isembly and the ..k that a bill .(lividuals who dual interest of >Mth respect to ON THE Civil. (;()Vl<:i{NMKN i ()!■' CANADA. 49 in cssing property a property he >s as to be lil^ely ind in them, to I know not, but eigneuries going lud in very few it not make the wing where the pinron it would non soccage land place of the law Certainly not. occur under the Kystcm HVslem of a tax upon wild lands, namely, the doubt whether llie scttieinent duties liHve been performed, why is that more likely to arise under the system of escheats llian uiuUr the other system -- It is much more likely. In tiie first place it IS the interest of the crown lawyers of tlmt province to make as much business us they can for themselves, and prosecutions of tiiis desciiption are not, always under tlie control of other authorities. Is not the point of wiiat is to be considered a siifticient degree of cultivation, to excu.se from such a tax iis you propose, as diiKcult to prove as the fulfilment of the conditions of settlement? — Certainly not, at least there never has been any diftiodty in the stale of New York, where it has been in practice ever since the independence of the country. Are not the conditions of settlement very dilhcult; making a rond of a certain width in front, and other conditions: — One person , says, I liavi- made a road and it is not kept up, it is grown over again. Another, I have settled such a man upon so many acres of land, who may have sold to another not yet esta- blished. Then how are you to prove that he has never been there ? and then consider the di.stance of the townships Irom Quebec, and the difficulty of com- nnmication. The burthen and expense of proof is with the prosecution. How will you deal with the settler upon lands subject to escheat, \»ho has purchased his lot r Is every part, or what |uirt of the original grant subject to your pro- cess? And then the specific performance of your conditions might admit of dift'erent interpretations. Would not the conditions in such a case be very various and very difficult to prove ?— 'Miey would. Would it not afi'ect the land partially ; would it not atl'ect portions that remained uncultivated, leaving what was settled in the hands of the owner? — I think there is no end of the difficulty of the case. Although there may be great difficulty with reference to proving the fact of past settlements, do you mean to state to the Committee, as your opinion, that it is difficult now with respect to new grants, for the Government to impose such conditions as will do away witli all obscurity as to the fact whether the lands arc forfeited or not for non-completion of the condition of settlement? — The question has reference to new land, and not to any land that has been before granted, and I have stated no objection that I am aware of to new grants of land to actual settlers upon them. Supposing the Crown, to-morrow, to grant 10,000 acres to any individual, are you not of opinion that it would be extremely easy to iVanie such conditions as would involve no obscurity when the question came to be considered whether be had fulfilled them or not?— The best condition is to grant to no individual I (),i)00 acres of land ; but I do not see how by possibility you can impose such conditions, or that any person would be willing to accept them, inasnmch as if the proprietor of such land, under such a title, wanted to sell a portion of his estate, the purchaser would require to know whether he had performed the con- ditions with respect to the rest of it. Are you aware that this is the principle upon which certain conditions are im- posed with respect to every grant tliat is now made by the Crown, in order to pievent a recurrence of thj nii^^chief complained of? — No giants, to my knowledge, to the extent stated in the ])ievious question have been recently made, or no grants except to ner.sons bona Jidt intending to settle upon them. Do you consi ier that there is any obj^>ction in principle to the Crown making a grant of lo.ocu acres to any individual who will apply suificient capital to bring it into a state of "ultivatior ? — Certainly i ot. Is it likely tlut any i idiviiiual would be able to apply a sufficient capital to bring io,uoo acres iuic ci.ltivation r — 1 should be very sorry to do it. If this measure of taxing unoccupied lands is most advantageous for the general settlement of the country, have you any doubt that such an Act would be adopted and passed by the Legislature of Canada ? — Such an act, to a certain extent, has been passed by the Legislature of Cpper Canada, and I should conceive that if some conciliatory adjustment of the existing ditliculties could take place, there would be little doubt that the Legislature of Canada generally would pass Acts wliieh were obviously for the interest of the country. Is there iiny difficulty which would prevent individuals who held those large musses of land from puttina; them up to sale in portions, and is there any difficulty ,5*^9. n in Edwnril liUice, £iy. li May I8i8. \ Mieard Kilter, Esq, I J May i8a8. i fi iM 5u MINUTES OF EVIPKNCK nKFOUi: SI'.I.KC l" COMMl'f in makinu a title, arisinj); from the state oftlic country ? -Tlicrc it no (iiftiiiilty in mukinn u title from a clear (jrant from the Crown, if this new doctrino of estreat floes not interfere willi it ; i)ut so lonj; as the Crown has not proreetlcd In estreat, I take it for ^jraiited any body would take a title stibject to tin? conditions in the original grunt. There is the other ditHcnlty to all titles in (Janada, the want of a registry, and the daiiijer that the property may he atl'ected, even without the knowledge of the seller, hy some Act passed hei'ore a uolary, to which he may have been a party. Would it not be one of the best modes of remedyin-r this evil to facilitate sales ? — Sales of land in Lower Canada for money are very dithcult. Another objection occurs to me to any immediate process of estreat, which is, that until the passini! of the Act of i8'J,5 the title to lands previously granted, and the cpiestion whether they were effected by the Knglish or the Frencli civil law, had not been settled ; so that it was uncertain whether the children of an original grantee took In common, or whether the luno fell to the eldest son as heir-at-law. In point of fact, would you recommend, as the easiest mode of settling those ilifficulties with regard to the grants of land, that the Legislature of Canada should be induced to adopt some such provision as that which prevails in the United States? — Most assuredly; it woidd be not o' ly the simplest but the most expedient and beneficial course. Are you aware of any other course tiiut could be adopted that would have a tendency to subdivide those grants, and to enable tlii^ present proprietors to trans- fer them into others hands upon any tenure, either of lease or freehold, to convey them to persons lliiit would be likely to improve and cultivate them ? — I take it that they cannot by law transfer upon any other tenure than an I'liiglish tenure. Could any means be adopted that would facilitate the transfer? — I know no ditKculty that occurs now to thi transfer, except any ditticulty that may be inter- posed from the causes I have stated. Would not persons as willingly take grants of land from individuals who had received large grants from the Government, as from the Government itself"' — Undoubtedly they would, if satisfied with the title. Are not the Crovcrnment in the habit of daily granting portions of land to individuals in the unsettled parts of the country '. — They are, certainly, in Upper Canada, and, I believe, in Lower Canada. Do you not consider that the present state of the law in Lower Canada does practically obstruct the settlement of the country r — There can be no doubt that among other bars to the improvement of the country, the present state of the law, as affecting landed property, operates to a considerable extent, as I have already stated ; but I should say, beyond that, a feeling of restlessness, uncertainty, and insecurity, arising from the evident consequences of a system of mal-administra- tion of the (lovernment for the last 20 years ; the i>t of lioiit Ox- he in'^y kte nftlcR? objection pa«si"il of 1 whctlier Ik settled ; e took \n lUnR those iidn 8ho«»Ul the United [ the i"<"*t mk\ hnvc i\ ors to trwns- 1, to convey »_-I take it ,h tenure. 1 know no ny be inter- inls who had ent itself?— IS of bind to dy, in Upper Canada does no doubt that ^te of tl\e law, have already ertainty, and .il-adnunislra- prevailed, and od state, with St. Lawrence, cnt and irrita- to check con- provemcnt of in any degree i between the nrovinces, the before referred on the St. Law- g to their view o far benefit the (ill which would ....nt of the vio- lation and legis- their church, course althousili Iccts can only l>e Ion, and by the laming them for cnteitaiumg v» ON TIIK CIVIL (iOVEUN.MKNT OF CANADA. /j, enterluininx that separate view, probably if 1 wiin Kiniilurly nitimted 1 iiunlit feel dlMnoseil to cliiia; to the .same liopea.s lonjjj an therf wt»» any reaHonablu probability of bein(j able to muintuiii it; but fecliuy: tliat sooner or later they iuunI t'orni part of the (jrreat American and F,n|j;liish family, any ulleinitt to syiritice tlie panuuouiit interests of the improvement and civilization of the country to tiieir liubitn or pre- judices, would not oidy be injurious {p the rest of Canada, but hopeless as to its rcRult. Do you conceive that independent, of any acrimonious feeliny; existing between the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, a great majority of which are French Canadians, and the executive (lovernmeiit, they would be disposed to resist the introduction of a bill for the purpose of taxing waste lands, inasmuch oh tlie result of such a measure could only be to increase the F-nniish population of the country r —I am afraid they might be actuatcii by air motive which in their o|iinion could retard the settlement of the country by a new popuhition. .\re you of opinion that that feeling has arisen l.om the manner in which they have been governed r — 1 am of opinion that it arises in some respect from that, i)ut more from the reason I have stated before, that they wisli to maintain their separate caste as long as they niay be able. Can you specify any particular bills tliat tht^y have passed, or that they have refused to pass, from which you would infer that disposition on the part of the House of Assembly, oris it merely your general impression? — I understood they had refused to pa.ss a bill for the voluntary mutation of tenures, and another for esta- blishing registers ; these are the only two that occur to me at present, but I am certain there are many others ; gucli bills w ere sent down by the Legislative Council to them, and they refused to pass them. Was not their indisposition to pass those bills, in a great measure, founded upon their conceiving that the Government of England had interfered with a .subject which more properly belonged to themselves and to the local Government of Canada? — The Government in Kngland only interfered after they had refused to pass those bills. \\'ill you state to the Coiimiittee what other causes have, in your o|)iniun, pro- duced the present dilUeultic^ iii Canada, and obstructed the settlement and general improvement of the province? — I conceive the great cause, as I have already .stated, has been a long course of mismanagement, and a constant attempt to recon- cile contradictory principles in the administration of atlairs in tliat country. The unfortuniite division of the provi'ices was followed by the establishment of an inde- pendent Legislature, placed in the hands of one class of subjects, without pro- viding for any participation in their right.s, by the English population, us they increased in numbers and importance. To this Legislature, right or wrong, you gave the most extensive powers and privileges, which have been apparently found in practice so inconvenient, that they have been invaded or resisted as often as any emergency or supposed necessity required it. The rights of the Crown have been fastidiously insisted upon on one side, and inadmissible claims of power and privilege set up on the other. This has been going on nearly since the time of General Prescott's administrtaion, and mutual jealousies and quarrels have increased, with some short intermissions, till the evil bus grown to its present formidable si/.e. I think the fair inference must be, that much has taken place to be regretted on both sides. Certainly the Canadians complain, with apparent reason, of some part of the conduct of (iovernnient; an English receiver is appointed, insutlicient securities being taken in England ; the Assembly suggest the regulation of his otHce, and subsequently, 1 understand, bills were sent up in the terms of a bill passed in other (Colonies for this purpose ; they are told this is an encroachment on the prerogative of the Crown, and their bills are rejected. The receiver had previously failed in debt to the Public about 100,000/.; and when they .say, " as you made the appointment yourselves, took your securities in England, and rejected our advice, it i.s fair you should pay the defalcation," Government insist upon their laying fresh taxes on their constituents for it. In the same manner they allege they have sent up bills for the regulation of the office of sheritl, that these also were rejected, and two following sheritfs have failed; the one a defaulter of suitors money to the extent of 27,000/., and another for a less amount. These are not theoretical, they are practical evils, and form just ground of complaint. In the midst of such disputes, ditl'erences between the provinces arose as to the division of revenue rai.sed at Quebec, Attempts were made to settle .i'i;). (12 them Efhiiard FMiet, Etq. 15 iMuy ill«8. fAwaiil EHice, li Mar i8»8. 1 them by arbitration. The Assembly a: Quebec set up the most inadmissible pre- tensions, and the matter was referred for decision to this rountry. I must offer my testimony as to the unwillingness of Government in tliis instance to resort to Parliamentary interference if it could have been avoided ; but when the only alternative left was the payment of the whole civil list of Upper (Janada out of the English Excliequer, it became indispensable. The question then ensued what was trie best course to pursue to prevent an eternal reference to the House of Commons on the subject of Canadian disputes ? A legislative union was sug- gested, and Government was induced, by t!ie promise of support in diHerent quarters, to adopt that suggestion. It is unnecessary to enter into the history of its failure. It was, and is still, in my opinion, much to be lamented. When the Union Bill was withdrawn, another measure of a much more objection- able nature, the Canada Trade Bill, was introduced and passed in 1822. By this bill all taxes previously existing were enforced for five years, or, I believe, tillthc repeal of the Act; a tole.ably strong measure, and which could not be very agreeable to the feelings of persons having such high notions of their rights as liad been displayed by the Assembly at Quebec. As Government had determined on so large an exoioise of the authority of Parliament, it is to be regretted their foresight did not carry tlieni one step further, and that they did not take power in the hill to apply the taxes to the payment of the civil lists of the two provinces. The Assembly were then called together, in no good humour, to vote the application of taxes levied not only without their consent, but for pur- poses : direct variance with tlieir declared votes and opinions. This did not tend to alla\ former (lift'erene. >; and from that time (with one exception during the administration v. legally rjeemed aliens. A hill was brought in to relieve them from disabilities or penalties, Mtid RE ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 53 ible pTe- tist offer to resort irhen the mada out jn ensued he House I was sug- I (liferent le history J. When objection- ,822. By , I believe, could not 18 of their nment hud it is to be at they did iivil lists of od humour, but for pur- lid not tend during the supplies for II long con- d other civil las only met lie Governor iblic service. )n bill by his he provisions hat law such ig from 1822 ■c persevered 10 excuse of to the rights la, an appeal not have been Imost brought all matters of :hecked. As- :iil authorities iiiuority at no -,o rcprcscntu- thcse disseu- t, into serious not ciisv now English popu- rvers of what 1 tlu- English vhole now ait pretensions to ncc and in the contented while ilty is only now c Government, rence that have n for four or five land, that many es for .{o years, jiiglit be legally ities or penalties, and I and to make adequate and expedient regulations for the future, adapted to the cir- cumstances of a new country. A quarrel took place on the most trivial grounds, I believe about one expression in the reciting part of the bill, and in this the CJovernment persevered against almost the unanimous feeling of the Assembly for one or two sessions, till at last Lord Goderich wisely put an end to it by sending out an instruction conceding any thing that was desired, in the most conciliating terms, and which it is impossible to conceive why any government should have delayed for one hour. There is another grievance I understand still existing, an Act of old standing, enabling the administration to send out of the country all persons against whom common information may be lodged of their being dis- all'ected to the Government. The Assembly have naturally passed bills to repeal such an Act, possibly expedient under other circumstances ; and the attorney- general has been directed to vote in a minority of one or two, I believe, in fact singly, on more occasions than one, against the sense of the Assembly, and the bills have been constantly rejected in the Council. There is no allegation that the Act has been carried into vexatious execution, or at all, except in one case, that of Mr. Gourlay ; but the people say it is an imputation on their loyalty, and it is clearly liable to all the other objections they urge against it. I am afraid you must expect jenlou.^y and opposition in the Assembly while you are so careful to keep up these feelings by insisting on snch points. But the great source of diiliculty in the tapper Province, and the foundation of interminable dispute and serious difference, is the state of the church lands, and the idle pre- tensions of the leading ministers of the established church, and the exclusive claims of that church. As small a proportion of the people of Upper Canada are members of the church of England, as of the population of Ireland. The mischief of providing by enormous grants or reserves of land for the maintenance of an exclusive establishment is beginning to be felt in every direction, and unless they are arrested with a strong hand, and put down by some arrangement con- ciliatory to the wishes and feelings of the people, there can be no hope of peace or quiet. I should add, the same objections press to the clergy reserves, as they are called, in Lower Canada, and the whole subject, as respects both provinces, cannot too soon or too decidedly be dealt with by Parliament. There is another subject that requires the anxious attention of the Committee, the present composition and the constitution of the Legislative Councils in both provinces ; and on this head I may observe, it is much more easy to find objections than to provide remedies. The Council of Lower Canada, as at present constituted, contains a large proportion of the superior French proprietors. An objection has been taken to the judges being members, and on general princi- ples that objection is well founded ; salaried officers of the Government have been also objected to, as dependent on the executive authority ; but then the question is, where are you to find in the present circumstances of the country counsellors not liable to some such objections ? I do not believe many additions could be made from the French proprietors qualified by sufficient attainments and independence, and the trading part of the comnmnity are prevented, by the causes I have stated, from becoming permanently interested in real property. Other- wise the most intelligent and efiicient members might be found among the mer- chants, and it is a curious and rather instructing fact, as connected with this case, that the French popu'-'tion have never had much share in the trade of the country. Are there no resident English proprietors? — No English capitalist is indiiced to vest his property permanently in Lower Canada, although nearly the whole trade, and all the capital employed in it, and profits derived from it, are in the hands of the English inhabitants ; and I should say, since the American revolu- tion, there is scarcely an instance of any French Canadian occupying any con- siderable or permanent station in the commerce of the country. It would be therefore extremely difficult at present to remedy the defects, admitting them to be such, in the constitution and composition of the Councils. That it would be most desirable, if practicable, no person will doubt, who observes how little independence this body has at any time shown of the executive authorities. Arc the majority of them in office r — I think they are. .^♦^9- Edviard EUict, Etq. ij May i8s8. ..ij$ ■»..i "■ '•.!«. ■i-i- ",■!•: Rdnard FJUiei, Etj. 17 May i8a8. *< s . 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Sabbati, 17* die MaiJ, 1828. Edward Ellice, Esquire, again called in ; and Examined. ARE you at all acquainted with the Courts in which justice is administered in Lower Canada ? — I am acquainted a little with them, but it is a long time since I have been in the country. Are they so arranged as that, in your opinion, the British law can be effectively administered in them ; or are they principally adapted to the administration of the French law ? — I should think that depends very much upon the qualifications of the judges, t have never heard of any complaint on this subject ; and I know some of the judges, now on the bench in Canada, who are respectable and able mm, and perfectly qualified in public opinion for the office they fill. Do you mean qualified to administer the English law as well as the French?— It would be very difficult to say who are entirely qualified to administer the French law. If persons who have been educated, and have practised at the bar in Lower Canada, are not qualified to administer tliat law, I know not where they arc to be found ; the principles and practice in France having been essentially nitercd since the Revolution. The English judges are, I have said, qualified to administer the English law. Do the judges principally consist of persons who have practised at the bar in lAiV/ft Canada? — 1 believe so, generally, in Lower Canada. Are there frequent appeals to this country from the decisions in Lower Canada? —There are frequent appeals ; and they are encouraged by the uncertainty which prevails with respect to decisions under the French law ; there being no settled practice to refer to in Europe on the subject. Do the inhabitants of the townships complain that the courts are so constituted that the English law, under which the inhabitants of the townships live, is not easily and effectively administered? — I am not aware of the particular complaints of thos« persons, but I can easily conceive, from the distance and difficulty of communication, great obstacles exist to the administration of the law in the townships. Is it within your knowledge that a court with very limited jurisdiction has lately been established within the townships, held at the town of Slierbrook, in which the English law alone is administered? — I have understood so. Have you any reason to think that an enlargement of the powers of that court, or of any other court within the townships for the administration of English law, would be an improvement ? — I am quite satisfied that nothing would tend so much to the settlement and civilization of the country, as the adoption of a simple, cheap and efficient system for the administration of justice. Do you consider that the establishment of a registry of the titles of estate» would be a very great improvement in Lower Canada ? — i stated in my former examination that th^ want of such a registry was one of the main impediments to the improvement of Lower Canada, and 1 cannot too strongly impress upon the Committee the difficulties now caused in titles ofall descriptions by the want of such registry. I believe no person would be advised to make any considerable purchase in I, 'iwpr Canada, without takmg the security of a sheriff s sale, which removes nil MKumbranccs. It is impossible to ascertain what acts may have passed affecting it in various notaries offices ; and a sale by the sheriff is a proceeding involving sometimes an expense ee instant and immediate disposal of all such lands, both of the Crown and the clergy reKcrveii; if they could not be sold, I would give them to settlers who would occupy themi and make the roads. Would that answer apply to both Upper and Lower Canada ? — Yes. Arc you aware that an Act of Parliament passed the House of Commons Inst year for the purpo.se of selling those reserves at the rate of 100,000 acres p»tr annum? — If such bill has been passed, it will be found utterly impo.ssible to carry thia provision into effect. Will you explain why you stated in your preceding answer, that you tliink it desirable to dispose of the whole of them immediately, although you suy that the sale of 100,000 acres per annum is not practicable?— One half the clergy reservnK in Upper Canada were sold to the Canada Company at a price greatly exceedintf, if not nearly double, their value in money; and still the church, dissutisded witit the sale, prevailed Upon the Colonial Department to put a stop to the arrangeniPnt 1 am certain it is in vain to expect another such opportunity of disposing of lliem, or at least the mass of them, on terms satisfactory to the clergy, wlnle land is f ranted almost for nothing to actual settlers in the country. In my former tniswer, said I would give away the lands if I could not sell them. U()on what grounds do you consider that the clergy in the Canadas will never consent to a sale of those reserves, as you are probably aware that il bus been cuinmuuicatcd to them that all assistance from this country will ceittfuP-i^lt was full m i'.l". ON THK CIVIL (JOVlillNMENT OF CANADA. 57 ice; »nd tlmt tlia )eilitioUfi, wouWl it Amerii'iuj vhiTc yoii e of New exjiudie"* nly in»tiUt' ich I Imvu ! gentlunien luuity. .ducatiou »i JL'ct, except lutiun i» "»e It leuut more e rule wUicU •e the better 8 felt in the laid out, and nt LttWfeHPe i -The gi'efttPUl nil jrood com* beiieCit of the In the it»te ol' the owner* of ing nutl uiwln* lusly followed ; ces from whU'li e setlU'rn liUVft he Crown «»il niiishi's, where munee of rofttl love the inco»' be Crown Bnd the ilWlftllt Biwl eruy reserveft J occui>y them, Yes. Common* ltt»t Do.oiio ncri'» \wr )ossible tu c»rry tliiii yo\i think it you suy tlmt the »e clerny reserve* ready «'xcet*ilinff. distti'ti'ilieil with thearrttn^ement lispwiuK ot themi while hunt i* Tiy former (mower, Ittiuiclai will nevfr •e that it hii* been ,11 ceuseKU w«« full full lime such communication mIiouIJ be iiiiidc to them. I strongly recommended it on their first objection to the ttward of the commissioners, and then predicted , on early repentance on their part of tlid course they had taken. There is no hope of their eHecting a .sale of M»»,u(»(> ncrt-jt ainuially, or a quarter of the quantity ; and I should much doubt their lintliii^ wittlcru for that ouanlity if they gave away the land. They do nolhiny; to cncouraj^c settlers. They neither make roads, build mills, or lay out one Nhillin^; of capital. They desire to reap without sowins. If tlien 100,000 acres cannot be «»l(l in a year, in what manner do you recom- mend that all the reserveH uhould be disposed of immediately ?— I think it would be evidently better that uome reuKonablc composition should be made with the church, and that the whole p;rnnt of land now in a state of mortmain should bo resumed. Where is the distinction between a cotnposition made with the church, and a sale at the price at which the lands will letch f — The composition should be very moderate ; and the country niinht not be indisposed to undertake a small general tax to get (juit of the (j;rcatcr nuisance. The free grant of the land to industrious settlers would be a great cncouraj^cment. I have understood also, in the late bill, provision has been mttl, ,V';li they were agreed upon by the Company and the Crown, never were issued to any set of connuissioners. Are you aware that a question arose whether the Commissioners had executed those instructions, and that a reference was made to a professional gciitleman upon the subject? — As there could be no ascertained principle upon which the com- missioners could execute their instructions, their award was of course open to every kind of objection which either party chose to take to it; but I do not think the particular objection taken by the Crown or the clergy could have been main- tained on reference to any two men in Great Britain, of competent knowledge or habits of business in such transactions Was not such a case as that, in which from the circumstar'^s no absolutely defined principle could be established, precisely a case in which arbitration might be resorted to, as to the fact whether the fair principle of the instructions issued to the commissioners had been satisfied? — As I never could understand the prin- ciples laid down in the instructions, which directed the commissioners to vahic between two and three millions of acres of wild land in a country where in fact it could have no real value for money, no sale of any quantity of land amounting even to 10,000 acres, having, in my recollection, ever previously taken place, I cannot see what limit could have been imposed to the discretion of the com- missioners, or what other rule than the most visionary speculation could have guided their award Certain 1 am, they did more than ar pie justice to both Country and Church. Altiiough you may be of opinion that nothing could be more absurd than those instru( tions, were they not approved by the majority of those interested in the formation of the Canada Company ?— The commission itself, and the instructions, were both approved of by the majority of the directors of the Canada Company. It was projected in the first instance by most respectable persons, but who knew as much of Canada as they did of Japan. You are understood to have stated to the Committee, as your opinion, that this sale of land to the (Janada Company, for which ultimately the sum of 350,000/. is to be received, had better have been given as a donation to the company, sub- ject to imposing settlement duties for the general improvement of the province ; arc you not aware that one of the avowed objects of that sale was, to relieve the Hritisli Parliament from the necessity of voting an annual estimate for the civil government f)l' Upper Canada? — I have not stated that between two and three milliiins of acres of latul had better be given to any company or any body in l/pj)er Canada ; but I stated at the time, and pressed my opinion on both parties, that if half a million of acres had been so given, or sold at a moderate price, without all the expensive and unsatisfactory process of an attempt to value that which in fact was otherwise unsaleable, and the company had been bound to lay out a portion of their capital in the improvement of that half million of acres, the arrangement would have been a very beneficial one for the country. I do not see the necessity which was imposed upon the Government of dis|)osing of this land for the payment of the civil list of Upper Canada, nor am I aware that the money has been hitherto so applied ; hut there could be no occasion to resort to such a source of revenue, supposing it to have been disadvantageous in other respects, jnasmucij as the ordinary revenue received on the trade of Canada has been always perfectly adequate, or might have been made perfectly adeijuate to the discharge of the civil lists of both provinces. You 1 KE ON TMK CIVIL CiOVr.llNMK'T OF CANADA. rovememt avc / 1 but ,any, and nterposed may not upany r — 1 the land ? that valued Company description ipon by the lers. id executed ieman upon h the com- rse open to [lo not think been main- nowledge or 10 absolutely tration might ctions issued and the prin- jners to value here in fact it nd amounting taken place, n of the com- ^n could have stice to both ..rd than those erosted in the instructions, ada Company, but who knew inion, that this n of a.'JO.ooo/. company, sub- thc province ; to relieve the ito for the civil two and three ■r any body in on both parties, moderate price, pt to value that ni bound to lay ion of acres, tlie I do not see ling of this land tlial the money resort to such a u other respects,, aniida has been adciiuiile to the You You are understood to state, that by prnp»'r iiiiiti»((nmcnt the revenue of Upper Edwird FJliet, Canada would have been suiHcicnt fur tlm iimlntcniincu cif her civil list; will you ^ ' 1- be };ood enough to detail in what munner tliiit rouhi be nll'rctcdf — It could have ,. y^^y ,9,8. been effected either by increasing tlu< diitiim upon inipnrtiition nt Quebec, upon articles consumed in Upper Canada, or by giving hitrti fair portion of the revenue generally collected at Quebec. Are you not aware that the Uritish (Jovprninrnt could not. for the mere and avowed purposes of revenue, have impotteil ciiNtoin (lutien in Lower Canada for the sake of increasing the revenue of Upper (>unudn, iiud cnubliug her to di.scharge her civil list? — I am aware that the greatcMt |>oNitiblt' olijectionM exist in principle to tiieir doing so ; but I am also aware that in point of fact tliey have got over those objections, and, by the Canada 'I'nule Act, linvn imposed duties to an extent quite equal to the expense of the civil governnieiit of both provinces, without con- sulting cither of the provincial IcgiMlatiireN. 'llu* (/tinuda Trade Act, for this .-pose, had been passed three yenrti before the ni'rungemcnt with the Canada Company. .Are you not aware that this country has no power to regulate the distribution of revenue between Upper and Lower Cuimdii, except upon the principle of arbitration between the two provinces, unil tliut tliu rcnuit of that arbitration has been to give Upper Canada a proportion of rnvenun not tidcquate for the mainte- nance of that establishment? — Alter all, ihe qmtitlion resolves itself into what is the fit amount of the expenditure of the civil govurniiicnt, and what deficiency it was necessary and advisable to supply, and whetlter that deficiency has been supplied from this fund; and I should ho ablo to give an opinion upon that subject when I saw the application of the moniuR liitlierto received from the Canada Company. I think, for the satiiifactionuf the Conunittee, they had better obtain a return of the amount of money received from tiie company, and of the application of it, up to this time. Can you inform the Committee whether, in this netllumciits of the townships, the persons belonging to the ditlerent denoniinntiouN of religion have collected in different districts, or are they generally interininglml ? ^They arc scattered all over the country. Were not the boundaries of Upper and I/>wer Otinndu settled in consequence of the provisions of the Act of 1791 ?— They were. In your opinion, has the boundary line between the two provinces been drawn conveniently for the two provinces; or is the division so arranged as to give rise to very conflicting interests and separate I'eolingn between them r— The division alto- gether was most unfortunate, and has completely verified the predictions of its consequences, made at the time by the agent of C/'anndii, and by all the witnesses examined at the bar of the House. The result, no fur, of maintaining distinctions between- two classes of subjects, has produced 110 proof of its policy. As to the particular boundary or division of territory, that in very immaterial, and I do not believe you could satisfy either party in the general (luestions now under discussion by any alteration in that respect. In point of fact, has not a very strong collision of feeling, and a sense of dif- ference of interest arisen between the inhabitants of the two provinces r — The greatest possible collision of interest has arisen un the subject of the revenue ; and unfortunately there is every reason lo H[)preliuiul it is only now at its beginning. Will you be so good as to state the princijiiil grounds exist between the two provinces? — The principal ground set up by the French Legislature at Quebec to ngulnfe the trade of the St. Law rence, and to levy all duties upon the exportation or importation of commodities either going from or to every part of Canada, without coiisnltiiig the Upper Pro- vince on this point of deep and vital importance to it« iidinbitauts. This grievance will of course be more deeply felt as the hillmrltt rapid settlement of Upper ('anada, encouraged by more liberal institutions, and a better slate of law, pro- gressively advances. The French populatiim of the Lower Province have not increased or improved their condition m any renpect in proportion to that of the Lnglish population either in Upper or in Lower I'linadu, nor is there any reason to believe that their numbers or their interest in the country will in future increase in proportion to the increase that must take plitce in both colonies in British rfio- H 3 inhabitants of difference that IS, the pretension Edward Hike, Ely. fj May 1848. 6j minutes of evidence defore select committee inhabitants and Britiih capital. Aa the British interest increases in either pro- vince, a community of fnitlino' will iitinmiiikrily Icml to tlioir closer connection together; and I uni al'ruid. if cvuu it \,tw tlio dotcrniinntion of Parliament to maintain the ascendancy of oiw tluxN of the population of Lower (.'anada, and their exclusive powers over the taxation and commerce of the country, the Uritish inhabitants of botli Provinces woultl, at no distant time, look to some other means of relieving themselves from so iutulorabic a Kficvanca. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the course of trade upon the St. Lawrence, to know whether, in point of fact, any obstruction exists in the export of the pro- duce which the inhabitants of Upper C'anada have to dispose of, or whether the inhabitants of Upper Canada can export ihr ir produce as freely ns those in the Lower Province? — At present there is no obstruction. Formerly some regulations were attempted to ascertain the extent of f(oods transmitted to Upper Canada, I believe, with a view to arriving ut data to assist the commissioners in apportion- ing the revenue. Some complaint, 1 have also understood, was made of a tax levied by the Assembly at Quebec, on ritfts uf timber coming down the Rapids from Upper Canada, for the pnrpost^ of ininrnviiig the navigation, and that the money so levied was never cxpendtid on that ob|ect : otherwise the inhabitants have free ingress and egress for all thuir commodities, subject of course to such regulations and duties as the Lower Legislature think (it in their discretion to impose upon both. Are any duties imposed upon any description of commodities on being exported from Canada ? — Very trilling, if any, Are the duties which are collected uiton goods imported into Quebec or Mon- treal, and which are imposed and regulnteir by the Assembly of Lower Canada, influenced in a certain degree by such Acts ns have passed in this country for the purposes of regulating the trade r"-l have stated, in a previous part of my exami- nation, that the disputes between the provinces on matters connected with their joint revenue, led to the Canada Trade Act of l8m ; and by the provisions of that Act the most valuable part of the oonstitutional functions of both the Colonial Legislatures are in effect abrogated. That Act passed almost unanimously in Par- liament, and received the especial support of those who opposed the union bill. Considering the respectivt habits and manners of the inhabitants of Lower and of Upper Canada, would not any systvm of import duties be likely to atfect the two classes very differently, as to the burthen that they would produce upon each ? — I should tliink not ; and I am quite sure if the case was otherwise, the better policy would be to avoid all distinctions. Do vou think that it would bfl best to enact such a system of custom duties as would, with reference to the articles upon which they were imposed, have an equal bearing upon the population uf the two provinces ?— From the nature of the country it would be impuNsible tu du utiierwisc, even if it were advisable. Is their consumption similar, front their habits and Wunts?~I should think, in some respects, dissimilar. The two grtiat articles upon whicii the revenue is now raised, are rum and tea. The Frutich Citnudians are probably the greater con- sumers of rum, and the F.nglish population, following the habit of their own country, and of their neighbours in America, the greiitcr consumers of tea ; but there is a considerable consumption uf thcwu commodities by both parties. Is it not probable that if a largo dutv were imposed on the tea imported into Upper Canada, where the English population chiefly reside, it wouM press much more heavily upon them than upon thti Canadians? — A heavy tix upon tea would be both objectionable to the p«oplu, and impolitic ; but tlkc particular grievance with the people of the UppLM' Province would be, that the iVssembly at Quebec should tax their tea without t\\mtf consent, and I suppose it is not in- tended to adopt a permanent systen) uf taxation by Parliament. Is it not absolutely necessary that that same rate of duty should be, collected upon goods imported mto the St. LawriMicv, whether for the consumption of the Upper or of the Lower Province ; and if dill'nront rates of duty were li be levied in the two provinces, would it not inovitnbly lend to an intolerable extent of smuggling botween the two provinces r-Tlie inevitable result of any attempt to levy different rates of duties at diltertint ports in the St. Lawrence above Quebec, would be smuggling to an extent quittt ucstrutitivo of the revenue, beyond otiier obvious objections to wliicli such u systeut must bo liable. Uf course it is neces- sary *r TTEE ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. (>3 1 either pro- connection Hrliainent to 'anada, and the llritish other means I. Lawrence, : of the pro- whether the those in the : regulations ler Canada, 1 apportion- i(te of a tax the Rapids nd that tlie inhabitants rse to such iscretion to Qg exported ec or Mon- 'er Canada, ntry for the ' my exami- I with their ions of tliat le Colonial isly in Par- lion bill. Lower and > atfect the ipon each? the better torn duties 1; have an nature of siihlc. think, in ue is now iter con- leir own tea ; but irted into ess much upon tea particular lembly at s not in- collected n of the je levied extent of tempt to Quebec, id otiier 18 neces- sary sary certain rates of duties should be collected on the whole trade, unless Parlia- ment was disposed most unnecessarily to pay the expenses of the civil govern- ment out of the revenue of Great Britain. Would it be possible to fix upon some spot which should be made a legal landing place for all goods to be transferred to Upper Canada, and to make any arrangement that should insure the transport of those goods into Upper Canada, without any portion of them being transferred for consumption into the province of Lower Canada? — It would be quite impossible, and if tne case was otneiwise, the restrictions and regulations on the trade of Upper Canada would be an in- tolerable nuisance. At present the merchants and storekeepers in the Upper Province purchase their annual assortments of supplies for their customers in the towns and villages at Montreal. Very few goods are exported fr>m this country direct for Upper Canada. Montreal is the great mart through which far the larger proportion of the whole trade is and must continue to be conducted. If those circumstances make it necessary that the same rate of duty should be collected on all goods passing up the St. Lawrence, whether for the Upper Pro- vince or for the Lower, is it possible to devise any system of division and appro- priation of the produce of the custom duties collected in the St. Lawrence, be- tween the tvto provinces, which must not necessarily be fluctuating and imperfect ; supposing a perfect proportion were arranged this year between the Upper and Lower Province, according to the respective consumption of the two provinces, must not that proportion necessarily become imperfect in subsequent years, from the variation that would take place in the population and wealth of the two pro- vinces ? — I am of opinion any such system is impracticable, and would only lead to renewed complaints and disputes. We have already some proof of this in the difficulties that have hitherto attended the attempts to devise a satisfactory mode of reference between the two provinces. Have the goodness to describe those difficulties ? — Referees were appointed by the two Governments previously to the Act of 1822, to decide upon tne propor- tion to which Upper Canada was entitled of the total revenue raised at Quebec. Upon some difference or obstacle arising to an adjustment, the Legislature of Lower C'anada refused to grant the necessary powers to enable the Government to proceed in the arrangement, and the Upper Province was thrown upon this country for the means of paying her civil list. If the parties were ever so well inclined to agree to a proportionate division, would not such division in itself necessarily be imperfect ? — Certainly it would; and without meaning to state any opinion myself on the point, the fact should not be withheld from the Committee, that a general impression prevails among the English inhabitants engaged in the trade of both provinces, that the representatives returned to the House of Assembly by the mass of uneducated Canadians, are not exactly the persons best t^ualified to decide on questions connected with the trade, or revenue affecting it ; and this impression does not tend to diminish the objections to their exclusive power of legislation on this subject. If you were called upon to divide the customs duties collected between the two provinces, upon what principle would you form such a division ? — It is impossible to divine a principle upon which one could make a satisfactory division. If you were able even to arrive at some tolerable estimate of the consumption of particular commodities in the two provinces, that would be no great assistance. There are other consumers, and to a considerable extent, of commodities on which duties arc levied at Quebec, and the Lower Province have no greater claim than the Upper to any addition to the revenue from the general trade of the St. Lawrence. The duties levied on the trade between the colonies and their neighbours form part of the mass. Whatever proportion is fixed, must it not necessarily vary from time to timer- It must vary with the annual increase of the population, which, under present circumstances, will goon in a much more rapid progress in the Upper Province. If one rate of customs duties must be collected in the revenue, and one mass of revenue is collected, and no fair or equitable division is made between the two provinces, does it not necessarily follow that there must be one expenditure ? — That I take to be one of the most difficult points of this case. Supposing any idea to be entertained of re-uniting those provinces, I have always thought the more prudent course to adoptj and one which the paramount object of preventing at first any collision in the united Legislature on the heretofore separate interests .'jtifj. H /( of Edward I'.Uke, F.iif. 17 Muy i8a8. UuMrdEttiif, Eiq. 17 May iHwM. ()4 MINUTKS l)F EVIDENCE UKFOUK SEI.lAJT COMMITTKr, of tlinpartii's would justify, would be to fix thu prcscnl revi'iuu', uud iipply hucU part of it, for ti certain number of yeurs, us would be necessary to delray the cliartrcs of the cxistinj; civil lists in both provinces. How could that object be ert'octed? — lly adc(|uate provisions in a bill for uniting]; the Legislatures, specifyin)^ in the schedule to the bill, in minute detail, the ditfcrcnt charges to be defrayed, in suchnmnner so that tluie should be no ground for snspicion that it was intended either to increase the charge or to give the executive authority any discretion in the payments. I think this arrangement might not be objected to, on the ground I have stated, for a. limited period of from five to fifteen years. Any surplus of revenue, or monies raised for the im- provement of tin- country, or for the increase of the eMublishments in proportion to the gradual increase of the population and the wants of the administration, would be still under the control of the Legislature, and at the termination of the limited period the full power of regulating the taxation and expenditure would revert to them. Before that time, it is to be hoped, all separate habits and interests might be nearly lost sight of, and the present collision of feelings and prejudices give way to a general desire to consult only the common good and the prosperity of the country in the united Legislature. Has the House of Assembly of Upper Canada ever expressed any wish for a union of the two provinces ? — I have not heard so, nor do I conceive the fact either way to be of much importance. The people and the Legislature are only desirous to participate in the exercise of tiie undoubted right of the whole people to raise the revenue and regulate the commerce of the country. In what way, in the case of the union, would you provide for the more general services, and the rest of the revenue remaining .ifter the disposal of the civil list ? — 1 would leave it at the free disposal of the united Legislature. I am perfectly satisfied, a governor of conciliatory disposition, popular character and good soimd sense, acting upon instructions from this country, founded on liberal principles, would have no difficulty in balancing and conciliating the difl'erent parties in the Legislature, and procuring from then) ample means of improving the institutions, and promoting the general interests of both |)rovinces. When the union of the two provinces was proposed in rarliamcnt, did not a feeling arise in Lower Canada extremely hostile to that measure ? — An adverse feeling certainly was expressed by Mie French population in Lower Canada, but not to a greater degree than was auticii)ated. Was not one of the grounds upon which that feeling was foundi il an ap|)rehcn- sion that under the circumstances of the union the provision for the maintenance of the Roman ('atholic clergy might be endangered? — 'I'licrc were several ill advised clauses in the bill. It was suggested by the original proposers of the measure that some clause should be inserted protecting the Cutliolic church and the rights of the clergy from all encroachment by any act of the luw Lcgishiture. This intention was nut accomplished by the clause in the .Act, wliicli was construed by the clergy as directed hostilely against their establishuicnt. Nothing could lm\i: been so contrary to tiie feeling witii which any mention of the church was suggested, and it would be consistent equally with justice and jjolicy to provide distinctly in any measure for uniting the colonies, against all dangers the clergy may apprehend in this respect. Each of those provinces having now a representative assembly, wordd it in your opinion be possible or desirable to leave to those assemblies the regulation of such matters connected with each jjrovince as might be considered as local and particular, and to a.ssemble aCongress, consisting of certain members of both bodies, to which might be given the charge of such concerns as should be general to the two proviiicts; among which may be enumerated the collection of the revenue, great institutions for the purpose of defence, and the general application of the revenue, appointing to each of them a fixed civil list? — If it were possible to satisfy the Earties by any arrangement more than by the whole measure of a union, I should e much inclined to sacrifice a great deal for that object. Hut a Congress would in fact be only a union with more complex niachim ry ; and 1 doubt whether the objection of one individual in Lower Canada to any measure of this description would be removed by it. The same difficulty would occur in apportioning the influence of the two parties in the Con;rress, as in a Legislature common to both, aud you must make some alteration in the constitution of the .Assenddy of the I^wer Province, by the admission ol representatives from the townships. The great dcsiilciiituiu m rr.r. j)|)ly wc\\ lelrny the a bill for (letuil, the iiu ground give the rnngcmcnt period of for the im- propnrtion inistration, nination of iture would habits und jelings and lod and the wish for a vc the fact ire are only hole people lort' general civil list? — tin perfectly good sound 1 principles, arties in the institutions, t, did not a r All udvcTse "iiiiada, but ipprehcii- linteimnce several ill jsers of the chinch and .cf^islaturc. construed ling could liurcli Wiis to provide the clergy Id it ill your lion ot such 1 particular, i>s, to which to the two cnue, great the revenue, o satisfy the [)n, 1 should igress would whether the description itioniiig the lion to both, (ubly of the The great lilcsidciatuui ON Tin: civil. GOVnnNMENT OF CANADA. «5 flrsidcratum is to infuse into the legislative body, under whatever regulations it nmy be placed, persons of liberal education, who may be able to counteract the influence of narrow habits and old prejudices in rctording the prosperity of the country. Would not the same obiection exist if a legislative union took ploce; would not the eftoct necessarily lie, upon similar principles, to extend the influ5nce of the French Canadians to Upper Canada? --Certainly not, if you were to unite the two Legislatures, adding to them a fair proportion of representatives from the unrepresented townships in Lower Canada. Have the Legislatures of the two provinces ever come into collision on any other poinU except those connected with tmde ?— They could not come into col- lision upon other points, but this is one of paramount and vital importance. Have not there been many Acts passed by the Legislature of Upper Canada to which there liave been no similar acts passed in Lower Canada r— Of course there have been ; the state of society is diftcrent. Is the population of the great towns of Montreal and Quebec principally French or F.nglish?— Princijially French in numbers. But this would alter rapidly, and a great amalgamation of the present distinct classes, and a still greater alteration ill property take place, if the tenures were changed ; and the Crown has now the nncontrolied power of eflecting this object in both towns. Docs the Frimch population also possess the major part of the wealth and respectability in those towns? — Certainly not. The whole trade, and all the capital employed in it, or at least in the great branches of trade, is in the hands of the English. Could any possible change of boundaries between Upper and Lower Canada remove the diliiculties at present existing? — I can conceive none. What would be the effect of including the Island of Montreal in Upper Ci'iada? — I do not think that any new division of the boundaries would improve the condition of Upper Canada, and the separation of Montreal from the Lower Province would produce more dissatisfaction than u more clHcient measure. Would not annexing Montreal to Upper Canada transfer a very large mass of the French population into that province, in which no French interest exists at present.'— Certainly ; but the character of the populotion in thi most important town will progressively change. What provision of the Legislature of either province has been made in pursuance of the provisions of the Act of i7|)i, for the extension of the right of representa- tion and suH'rage to the new settlers in either province? — In Upper Canada I think the original number of the Assembly was 16"; in Lower Canada, 50. The Assembly of Upper Canada have taken advantage of the power given them by the Act of I7{)i, to extend the representation in proportion to the new settlements and increase of the inhabitants of that province, and the original number of 1 (i has been gradually increased to the present number of 4,3 or 45. The country is divided into counties, and I believe each county is entitled to send a represen- tative when there are 2,000 inhabitants, and a second when the number iiicrea.ses to 4,()ou, when the representation of the county is complete, 'i'liis law is .still in operation, and of course the number of members of the Upper Assembly will pro- gressively increase with the population. The Assembly of Lower Canada having no disjiosition to admit rcprestMitativcs from the English •ownships, have never added one to their number, nor have they acted like the Upper Assembly on the powers in the bill of 171)1. The consequence is, the new settlements remain un- represented, and the whole powers of legislation aifccting the mode of revenue of both provinces, and all other interests of the Lower, arc confined to the original ,50 members returned almost exclusively by tlie French [wpulation. It might be advisable, in considering the means of redressing the complaints of the Fnglisii fHopulatiou on this head, to refer to the institutions of the neighbouring state of Vermont. There, it is considered so essential to provide for the greater wants of new settlers, that a right of representation is given to a much smaller number than by the regulation in force in Upper Canada. Two members, I understand, are given to each new township when 80 taxable inhabitants are resident in it, when the representation of such township is complete, and cannot be increased, not- withstanding any addition to the population. The rule was even more in favour of new settlers at first. 'Ihe town of Burlington, 1 understand, was represented when a only contained eight or nine tajcabk families. The population has since increased .^y. I to Bttmrd Ellivt, - s^ 17 May |8<8. CO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE UEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward ElHce, 17 May l8'28. to 5,000, but their share in the representation remains the same as in the first instance, while other representatives are constantly added to the Legislature from new settlements. The situation and condition of these settlements is very analogous to those in the townships of Lower Canada. Have not the House of Assembly of Lower Canada twice passed a bill to extend the representation precisely on the principles of the state of Vermont?- -That may liave been, and I believe was the ca.se, but no such law was passed. Does not the principle on which the state of Vermont gives an advantage to a newly settled coimtry, consist merely in giving the advantage of what is called the fraction to a newly seUled country, that is to say, that there must be a certain number of inhabitants in a township before it can have one member ; and when that is passed, before they get to the number that entitles them to two members, they give them what is called the fraction ? — That rule, I uadersfand, only applies imtil the number of taxable inhabitants arrives at 80, when the representation of the township is complete. The great advantage the new settler has in this prin- ciple of representation is, that the first 80 inhabitants have by their two members as much influence in the Assembly as a population of fifty times the amount in the old settled townships ; and this advantage has been given to extend and encourage the cultivation of the country. Did not the bill brought in by the House of Assembly in Lower C;' .icla, at the same time that it provided for the increase of representation in lin town«liips, founded upon the increase of population, extend that same principle of increase to the seigneurics which are now already represented, whereas in the state of A'ermont no increase of the representation took place in the already represented districts when new districts came into the representation ? — Upon recollection, I think, the first was so. The bill sent up by the Assembly for the increase of their numbers would have admitted four or five members from the townships, and added about 20 from the seigneuries ; in short, only aggravating the evil, under pretence of liberality to the townships. Can you state auy other grounds of objection which have been urged to the union of the two provinces besides those which you have alluded to? — I have heard of no other grounds ; but it is quite impossible there should not be a great difl'erence of opinion on a subject affecting in so many ways the particular interests, both of individuals and j)arties. I'or instance, persons residing at Quebec, and at York in Upper Canada, may neither approve of the removal of the Legislature to Montreal, supposing that to be tlie proper place, if a unioa should be decided upon. Are you aware what increase of population lias taken place among tiic French Canadians since the year 1791 ? — A very considerable increase has taken place, but not in proportion to the increase in the Knulish population in both countries. Arc the elections at Montreal and Quebec in the IVench or English interest ? — Every election depends on the French interest; and I doubt very much whether there would be a single English representative returned if there were a nevr election to-morrow. Even in the commercial towns? — Even in the commercial towns. The elec- tions also depend in a great measure on the intlueuce of the clergy. Is the riitht of suffrajie universal in those towns? — I forjiet what the riixht of sufli'age is. I proposed in the L'uion Dill that the right of sull'rage in counties should be .5/. a year, and tlie right in the towns 10/. a year. Do the Protestants in the seigneuries pay tithes to the Catholic cicrgy? — They pay no tithe, they contribute in no way to the support of luiy ninister except voluntarily. Do not the Catholics ))ay tithes to therr pastors '-Catholics ar; compelled by law to pay tithes. Protestants are exemjit from all claims of this d .'scription. Do you conceive it would he possible and desirable to erect either of the great towns into a free port, and that the dutU's .should be levied upcn the issue of good? from sucli free port, in proportion as they went out to one province or the other, or would that give a facility to smuggling?— The restriction would be very unfair to other districts of the country, and prejudicial to the general trade, and it would be impossible to prevent smuggling on so great an extent of navi- gation. (,'annot vcs.scis sailing up the river land at any point ? — Certainly. At prr.seui all vessel.-* enter at v^uebcc ; but ii bound to Montreal, the consignee only EE the first from new ilogous to to extend That may vantage to t is called ; a certain and when , members, Illy applies cntation of [» this prin- o members ; amount in extend and ada, at the town«lips, of increase the state of represented recollection, increase ot rvnships, and e evil, under urged to the to?— I have Id not be a he particular ^ residing at removal of if a unioa cr the French taken place, countries. li»h interest ? much whether were a new ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ^1 IS. The elec- t the right of e in counties ,ergy ;_Thev juister escept compelled by jscription. ,er of the great ,n the issue of province or the wouhl be very eral trade, and ixtent of navi- -Certainly. At the consignee only only gives bond at Quebec, and pays the duty afterwards on discharging at Montreal. Do you conceive it would be possible to form a representation upon the prin- ciple of admitting some of the great towns as independent bodies into a con- federation, such as exists in the north of Germany ? — I am afraid it is too late to attempt the introduction of new principles of that kind in America. You must either improve the system that exists on the model of our institutions at home, or copy from the simpler forms in practice in the United States. No other method will be congenial to the habits of the English or American inhabitants of Canada. Would it be easy to circumscribe such a district as should embrace little more than the French population, if you wished to throw them into a separate pro- vince, forming a part of a confederation ? — I do not see much difficulty in forming a separate establishment for the French, if you deprive them of their exclusive control over the legislation affecting the trade and revenue, and introduce satis- factory reforms to the English inhabitants in the tenures of property and the laws ; but ail these alterations would produce equal dissatisfaction with any more general arrangement, and do what you will to maintain the present distinctions, the progress of civilization, the increase in power of the inhabitants of the coun- tries watered by the St. Lawrence, and the probable march of events in America, will be eternally counteracting your views, and in the end lead to the necessity of more decided measures. I wish to add, that in any thing that may have fsdlen from me in the course of these examinations, I have not had the least intention of imputing blame to any persons connected with the executive Government in either province. I believe they have acted under instructions from this country, and that the difficulties they have had to contend with, and the discussions in which they have been involved with the Colonial Legislatures, were the inevit- able conseciuences of a determination to persevere in the system of government I have described to the Committee, and whicli could scarcely have been avoided while that system remained unreformcd and unimproved. Martis, 20* die Maij, 1828. John Neilson, Esq. called in ; and Examined. WHERE do you usually reside r — My usual residence has been at Quebec ; \ have resided for the last five or six years six miles from Quebec. Are you a native of Quebec ? — No, I am a native of Scotland. How many years have you resided in Lower Canada? — Thirty-seven years. Have you ever been, or are you at this time a member of the House of Assem- bly in Lower Canada? — I have been a Member of the House of Assembly of Lower Canada for the county of Quebec for ten years. Are you now deputed by any portion of the inhabitants of Lower Canada to make any representations to His Majesty's Government in this country ? —I am deputed with Mr. Viger and Mr. Cuvillier, of Montreal, on the part of the petitioners who subscribed the petition presented to the House of Commons lately. \\'\\\ you state what the grievances arc of which the inhabitants of Lower Canada complain, and what it is they seek a remedy for from the Government of this country and iVoni Parliament r— I slmll take the liberty of stating the <,rievances as they are .stated by the petitioners themselves : they co.mplain, in the lirst instK«ice, that the state of the province has l)een growing worse for several years past in respect to trade and the value of landed property, and the profits of industry. They complain that the expen.scs of Ciovemment ar< high. They com- plain tinit tliere has been a w;istn of the piil)lic revenue and resources; that the |)ublic monies advanced or paid lor public purposes are not sufficiently accounted lor ; tliHt large los.scs have con.seqiiontly act rued ; that the laws that are conceived by the people to be necc.s.sary for the common welfare are rejected by one of the br inches ot the LegisJuture, thiit i)ranch being prinripiilly < oniposed of persons w.io are ilepcudent upon llie Exerulive (iovenmieiit of the j)rovini:e. The laws, nl tlie iTuctioiiol vvhieh they complain, :ire mentioned m till petition, they are various annual bills, ormtiiiii the siippins for the support of the Provincial Government ; for aflordmg legal recourse to the .subject having claims against the Edward Elliee, Esq, 17 May 1828. John Neilson, Esq. .. ^ > no May 1828. j'>9- I Provincial 68 MINUTES OF L VIDENCK HEFOHE SELECT COMMITTEE 1 Ill JoliH NtHioh, ■iu Muy itl'Jtt, !f I i 1 I'rovincinl Ciovernment ; for regulating certain fees and offices , tor enablin-r the inliahitants of the towns of Quebec and Montreal to manage tlieir local concerns; for extending the facility of proceeding in courts of justice more generally through- out tile province than at present ; for providing a new gaol for the city of Monlrt-al ; ft«r (|ualifyiiig justices of the peace ; for continuing the militia laws ; for increasing tin' representation in the House of Assembly ; for the seciirity of tlu; public mo- nies in the hands of the receiver-general of tht: province ; for (he iuilependence of the jiulges ; tor appointing an ayeiit to reside in !'",nghtjul to utteud to the uti'airs of tiie province: these are all bills that have pitssed the House of Assembly, most of tlieiM stverai times, 1 believe all several limes, and have been rejected in the Legislative Council. Have tlicy all been rejected by the Legislative Council, or have they been dis- BlIoMcd by the King? — I'hey have failed in tlx' Legishitive Council; there arc none that I have mentioned that have been refused by the King. Are there any of tiiose which have been amended by the Legislative Council ? — Vcs, there are. Can you particularize which those are ? — .'V supply bill has l)cen sent down amended ; the bill for regulating certain fees ;vnd offices, 1 believe, was annnided once ; the bills for facilitating the administration of justice have jjicn amended ; the bill for continuing the Acts regulating the militia of the province was senr down amended. I am ready to give in, if tiie Committee wish for it, copies of those bills as latterly sent up to the Council. [The witness is requested to/iiniisfi the Committee with copies of the same.] Are there no road bills or education bills that hav been sent up by the Assembly? — Yes, there are; but they are net mentioned in the petition. They complain that the bills mentioned in the petitii'.:, and others, were rejected by the 1/i'gislative C'ouncil, and they ascribe that rejection to the Executive Ciovernment ol the province. Were they rejected with or without discussion? — Many of tliem were rejected without discussion; many of them were not proceeded upon on account of a rule that the Council imposed upon themselves ii i8:m or iSiJ, not to proceed upon bills of a certain description: for instance, noito proceed upon appropriation bills of a certain description, appears upon the rules of the Legislative Lopy of the Standing Ordirs of the House U'licre does that rule appear?— It Council. Can you furnish the Committue with ; of Assembly?- J think I can. The next grievances that tlu; petitioners complairi of are the ap|Jications of money levied in the provincr, without appropriations i»v the Legislature thereof; the next is advances of iiionev to persons who have no' sufHciently ai'» dunted for the same, tlissipation of public money, appointment ot persons to Ix- intrusted with public monies without full security given ; the diverjiion of the f»'venues of the estates of the late Order of Jcs-uits from the purposes ot education ot' tin' youth of the province; the non-exe«ution of the conditions of tfi» ;iiant> ot the waste lands of the Crown; and tli'' »a*it is attempts made in EnglaiKl to oiitain changes of the established constitution in the province by the ottit ers «it (ioveriiment, during the existence of all these abuses, liitiiertu 1 have luutined myself to the complaints in the (Quebec jietition, ann adds some which are directed against the (ioverner; first, vith vvitliiioldii.;j: of despatt-hes that ought to have been laid before th»' Legislatiw the dixmuwion of Kle.ssrs. Macord and Moundidet. The stipendiiir\ tbiiirmaaj ■> the (piarter sessions for thft district of Montreal; the retaining of Mr (..ddwejl as receiver gemral after his 'tilling Mr. Pertieval as collector itpointing Mr. liale as receiver- general without security, and .Mr. Young as sh'iifV without sutficient security, iilthoiigli both their predecessors had been defaultrrs to a large ainoiint; con- linued aiuisc ot the representation of the country in tiie newspapers established l>y lii» Excellency ; threats of disinis,3ions coiituiiied m iIiomc papers, dismissions id" default was known by the Ciovernor, and ci " «'f the customs after he had taken illegal fees , IT.R ibliii'i; the concerns ; »• tlirout>'»- Monlivnl ; increasing jublio nx)- L-ndcnce of the uti'Miis Assembly, •n rejected y l)fi'n dis- ; tliere uie Council ? — 1 sent t itie waste liiiain rbann;ps (ioveriiment, myself to the ion ; but there ion which are siil)sequently, her parts. I» ion adds some of dcs|)att'hes in of Messrs. cssion.s for the II. r,il after his ,1 as collector If as receiver- Kunt security, imu'int ; con- iiMS estahlislu'd (lismihsiou^ vi a> ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF C.\NADA. «9 of militia officers, and interference with the elective franchise, and with members of Assembly for the exercise of their freedom of voting in the House ; answers to addresses, in which the Assembly is very harshly spoken of; misrepresentations of the Assembly in a speech delivered in 1827. These are all in the Montreal and Three Rivers petition, and are omitted in the Quebec and Warwick petition. J am ready to enter into explanation of any one oi' those charges, and I am ready to produce proof by public documents of the whole of them, particularly of those in the Quebec and Warwick petition. There are two or three of those complaints in the Montreal petition, which are public complaints ; why are they omitted in the Quebec petition ? — The Quebec resolutions and the Montreal resolutions were adopted almost simultaneously ; there was no concert between the two places. Each one of course mentioned those articles that they conceived bore the hardest upon theiu. In Montreal they felt those articles as bearing hard upon them, and in Quebec they did not say a word about them. Seeing that so many bills have passed the House of Assembly which have'oeen rejected by the Legislative Co»mcil, will you state to what circumstances you believe that to be owing? — The petitions ascribe the rejection of those bills more to the composition of the Legislative Council, the dependent situation in which the members are placed relatively to the Governor, than to any thir ▼ else. Will you describe the constitution of i'la Legislative Council? — When I left the province there were resident in it 27 legislative counsellors; Jonathan Sewell, Speaker, 900 /. a year ; President of the Executive Council and Court of Appeals, 1 00 A; Chief Justice of the province and the district of Quebec, salary 1,500 A besides about 1,50/. for circuits, making altogether 2,650/. sterling. The Rev. C J. Stewart, Lord Bishop of Quebec, salary and allowances as bishop paid by Great Britain, about 3,000/.; Sir John Johnson, Indian Departiv.ent, paid by Great Britain, it is merely supposed i,ooo/. a year; 1 cannot say whether it is correct or not. What is the Indian Department? — There is a department in Canada called the Indian Department; it is a department that was established during the American war to have the direction of Indian aH'airs. John Richardson, an exeentive counsellor, 100/. a /ear; Chnrles St. Ours, half-pay as captain, paid by Great Britain ; John Hale, appointed by Lord Dalhousie to act as receiver general, 900 /. a year; as executive counsellor, 100/., making togcthe" " 000/. a year. Have all the executive counsellors loo/. a year in that capacity ? — They have. John Caldwell, the late receiver general, is now paying by agreement for holJ'.ig his estates, 2,000/. per annum, which are supposed to be worth much more. That is the only thing that places him in dependence upcn the governor. H. W. Ryland, clerk of the Executive Council, salary and allowances 6.50/.; pension, 300 /. ; clerk of the Crown in Chancery, no salary is mentioned ; fees of ofiice unknown ; total known, ((5(t /. James Cuthbert is said to be a half-pay captain on the establishment, but I do not know whether he is or not. (Charles William (iraiit, seignieur j)ropriet()r, and late of Isle St. Helen, which he has exchanged with the Government. P. 1), Debartzch, a landed propriitor, supposed to be worth at present 1,500/. per annum. James Irvine, late executive counsellor, merchant. M. H. i'crceval, collector of the customs and executive counsellor, in the receipt for the last ten yefxrs, supposed, upwards of 3,000/. perannum ; as executive counsellor, loo /. L. De Saiaberry, captain, half-|my ; and in Indian De|)artment, and a provincial pension of 200/. Is that for life or during pleasure ?— The pension has been stated to be instead of an othce by the Legislature, and I should suppose he holds it independently of aiiv one ; butT have heard that he is dead since I left the province. Are the pensions you mentioned before granted by the Executive Government? — The ()cnsion to Mr. Hyland was granted by the executive, but that has been voted several times by the Assembly, Mr. De Saiaberry is stated to have been re|)laeed by Mr. 'I ivsclicreau, a judge in the King's Bench at Quebec. William Burns, late the King's auctioneer, a wealthy retired merchant; Thomas Cofhn, chaiw;,i(n of tlie (piarter sessions for Three Rivers, 250/.; Roderick M'Ken/ie, ■: letired merchant; L. V. C. Delery, grand Vsyer of the district of Montreal, -alary 150/., and i'vvs mi known ; Louis Gugy, late sherifl' of Three Rivers, promoted to Montreal ; ollico supposed worth per annum 1,800/.; Charles De Salabeiiy, seisjnior; James Ker, judge, King's Bench, Quebec, 000 /. ; Exeentive 5<-'!>. 1 .5 ' Counsellor John NriUon, so Mav i8a8. ( m ! If i if 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEI'. Mn Keihon, Counsellor, 100/.; Judge Vice Admiralty, 200/. besides fees; circuits 1,^0 A; -£»?■ making together I, Sfjo/. Edward Bowen, judge, King's Bench, Quebec, fj/jo /,, 'and circuits 1.50/., making 1,050/. ; Matthew Bell, merchant, lessee of the Jvin^'x 20 May 1848. forjies; William B. Felton, agent for Crown lands, supposed 500/.; Tommaint Pothier, seignior ; John Stewart, late merchant and sole commissioner of tliu Jesuits estates, and executive counsellor, supposed 600 /. ; John Forsyth, niorLilmut, The total amount of the sums received by difl'ercnt members of the Legislative Council from the public is 17,700/. How niuchof tnc 17,000/. is paid by the province ? — I suppose about ,0,000/, or C,ooo/. of the 17,000/. are paid by Great Britain. Of the 27 membirs of thfl Legislative Council, there are 14 who receive payment out of provincial fumb*, four out of British funds, and nine receiving no pay ; nine of them are iiiitiveM of Lower Canada ; and of the 1 8 above mentioned who receive pay irom the public, seven are also Executive Counsellors. Are not all the commissions in the colonies during pleasure r — All commisitiuim are during nleasure ; all may be suspended by the Governor. Independently of any motive that you imagine those individuals may have from the salaries tiiey receive, are there not strong grounds of political diHbreiice (»f opinion with respect to those measures existing in the province t — Certainly (ho people of the province wish for the bills, and the Government does not wiklt for them. Is the difl'erence of opinion confined to the Legislative Asseml)ly and tlin Government, or is there any other portion of the population that dilfer in upinjuii as to the wisdom of those measures r— There may be a very small portion. What portion is it that ditl'ers as to the propriety of those measures ?-' Princi- pally those that are dependent upon the Executive Government. Have you any thing to add with respect to the constitution of the Legislntiv« Council ? — I have some facts to state ; 1 wish to state that the Lord Bisliop Iiun been but lately appointed, of course he cannot have been an active member ; that seven of the members, of which I have given a list, do not attend at all, or viuy seldom; Sir John Johnson, Mr. I)e St. Ours, Mr. Louis Ue Salaberry and Mr. Burns, on account of ill health or being superannuated ; Mr, Cuthbert, Mr, IJb^ bartzch and Mr. De Salaberry, have discontinued their attendance. Why have they discontinued ? — I cannot tell ; they did not attend at the liiMt session ; one of them I believe attended two or three sessions ago ; I lu'itrd Mr. Debartzch say that it injured him ; leaving 20 of those who are the niui^l dependent, by their public situation, to transact the business of the Council, These facts I give as the grounds upon which the people of the country generally, and I myself, believe that those gentlemen are influenced, independently of their consideration of what is fitting or unfitting. In the year 1825 there was a supply bill passed by the Assembly, which passed the Council, only two dissentiontN, In the next year a bill, exactly similar, was rejected unanimously by those that were present. In the first instance the Governor approved of the bill, in tli« second the Governor disapproved of the bill. Was he a different Governor?— He was. Under these circumstances the peiipla of the country have got an opinion that tiie gentlemen who usually attend tlicra are influenced by the will of tiie Governor, and it is my opinion. Is it not considered by the Assembly, that the Assembly has the right to ujipro' priate the revenue raised under the British Act which is known by the name ol the I4tli of the late King? — The .Assembly has freijuently declared Upon if» journuls that it understood that it had the rigiit to appropriate all the monies (Imt were levied within the province. Are you not aware that the i8th of Geo. 3, which is known i)y the name of iho Declaratory Act, and which Act had reference to such duties as were to be siibmt quently imposed by the mother country for the regulation of trade, enacted that those duties, though imposed by the moliier country, should be appropriated by the local Legislature? — I conceive that in 177S the mother country declared ihitt monies levied by the Parliament of (ireat Britain in the colonies, should bti a|)propriated by the legislatures of tiie colonies ; it declared thiit us u principle for tlie future goviTiunent of tliose colonies. Are you not aware that tiicn. was a distinct re-icrvatioii in the Statute of itiidi monies as were levied by British Acts prior to the iSth- — 1 am not aware lliiil there was such a distinct reservation ; I know that it has been interpreted (io boinn PTEi: ON THE CIVIL (JOVKUNMENT OF CANADA. 7« 4it8 i.^o/, : l)L'C, (J/JO/,, itlio KiiiK'w ; Touniidint mer oi' tlu< I, merc'Imiit, Lcginlutive out i.ooo/, iibi r» oj' tliB iciul I'iiiuIh, e nntivpti oJ' the public, :omnuHtiiuiiN y Imvo from liH'ercmce of Certainly llm nut wiiili lor )ly and tliti ■r in opinion lion. js?— IMnei" Leprislfttivo 1 Uisliop liim embur; tliut t all, or \iny jrry nnil Mr. eit, Mr, Du' id at (lio Iu4 ro ; I llt^HI'd are tlio nJoi*t the Council, ry ti;ener»lly, ently of their was u fiiipply (liHsentienlN, jy thosci tliut bill, in tim •(!s the neoplo iiitenil tliura ^rlit to appro- the nunui ot red upon iU e nionie>i tliitt e nam*' of fliB to lie null*)!*-' eiiucled ihiil propriati'd by deeiared that s, NJiould Im 1 priuei|i|ti fur tuliili) of micli lot aware lliiH interpnted a« buini{ being such ; but the peneral uridcrittunilinff has been this, that the Legislatures of the colonies have a rif,flit to appropriftto idl monies levied by the Imperial Legis- lature ; and that they conHider the only Nal'cjfuard they have against taxation by the Legislature of this country, in which ihcy are not represented. Are you not aware that in th«) Act of ;)l (ico, 3, commonly called the Quebec Act, there is a distinct reservation of the duties levied prior to the l8th of the late King?— Not accordiii|f to our uiidorKtanding of it, and my own understand- ing of it. Is it not the fact that the point which has always been contended by the English (•overnment is simply thin, that all duties levied since the 18th of Geo. 3, are to be appropriated in whatever nmnnttr tlio Legislature of the colonies think proper, but that all duties that were luvifd under the Hritish Acts prior to the 1 8th of (ieo. 3, were to be appropriatiid as before by the authority of the Crown? — 1 believe there was a despatch of Lori' Datliurst's which mentioned something of the kind, referring to an opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General. I never saw the opinion, but I recollect seeing u 'Vspatcli which stated something as being the opinion of the attorney and solieitor goneral to that effect. Is it not the fact that id! the bills sent up by the House of Assembly to the Legislative Council were framed \\\mt tlio assumption by the Assembly, that all duties imposed by the British Acts prior to the 18th of Geo. 3, were legally under the control of the local Legislature, and not under the control of the Dritish Government? — I'revious to the year 1822 there was never a question upon those Acts ; it was always nnderstood, both by the Executive Government ahd by the Assembly, that the whole of the monies were to be appropriated by the Provincial Assembly. In 1822 the distinction began, and since that there has been a quarrel about it ; the Executive (ioveniment say, that they are not to apply the money to any other purposes excepting the expenses of civil govern- ment ; but the Assembly say, that it is not to be applied by the Executive in such a way that they are to have no check over it. Are you not aware that whenever there was no difference of opinion as to the appropriation, in point of fact, the right of the British Crown was not brought into {[ucstion, and that under those circumstances the appropriation took place generally ; but although it did take place, the rights of the Crown were not waived by such circumstance?— -The diderencc of opinion was first as to the niinual appropriations. Will the ('otnniittee allow me, in answer to this question, to state my view of the differences between the Government and the Assembly, referring to the diti'erent bills. My opinion upon the subject is this, that the money arising from the 14th of the King was to be applied exclusively to the support of the Civil (lovernmenf ; but that sum being insufficient for the support of the Civil Government, and the Executive Government coming to the Legis- lature for an addition, then the Assembly had the right of control over all the expmditure, to see that every itent of that expenditure was such as would autho- rize it to make additions to it. Then as long as the proceeds of the 14th of the King were sufficient for the maintenance of the CJivil (iovernnient, you admit that the right was in the Crown, and that the appropriation would legally proceed from the Crown; but when lliose proceeds nre not sufficient, yon think (hat the right of the Crown lapses, and that the Assembly, in C()nsc(|uence of lidding to that sum, becomes possessed of a control over the whole revenue I-- So far; Imt that is not the true state of the ease. I undeistund, as an individiiiil, that the Assembly of the province has u right to api)ropriat«; and control the whole of the money that is levied in the provinee. Notwithstanding the provision of the Act of 1778? — I understand that the Act of 1778 established this princiiile, that in the colonies whenever taxation was resorted to by the Parlianient of the mother country, then the Leinslature of the colonies had a right to apply the proceeds for the uses of the prov i; >\ >\'hat view tlo you entertain of the powers of the Act of 1 774, a^ affecting the reveiuie of Lower Canada ?— I will state my view of the matter; I differ in some respects from the members of the House generally ; but mc all agree in this, that wc ouoht to have a control over the expenditure, although we differ as to the groiiiids u|)on which we ought to have that control. The Revenue Act of 1774, was passed by the Legislature of this ioiiutry, at a time when there was no ivpre- senf;ition of Lower Canada ; a represeutution had been promised them, but tir- 5''!*' I 4 cumslances John Neilson, Esq. \ . J 10 Muy I 828. i i! John NeiUon, so May i8i8. I t Ti MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE cuinNtances did not permit, in the opinion of the Government of this country, that it should be established then ; and as a means of drawing something from tite country for tlie support of its government, it passed the Act of 1774. It is very true that there were duties under the French tiovernment, but those duties, I be- lieve, by the judgment of a llritish court of justice, have been held to be illegal, and could not be recovered in the colonies. I believe, in the case of Antigua, there was a decision that all the French duties existing in the colonies were illegal from the moment the King's |)roclamation issued, recognising the |)eople as Uritish subjects and giving them the rights and laws of Englishmen. Of course in (.'auiida nothing was said on the subject, the people of Canada have always been the humblest and the mildest people you have ; it was accompanied by an Act giving them their laws and other advantages, 'ihe matter however of taxation generally at that time by the mother country was much discussed, and then came this Act of 1778. Are the Committee to infer from your answer, that the duties being illegal for which those were commuted, although they were enacted in that Act of 1774, they were illegally enacted on that account? — No, certainly not; the Legislature of (J reat Britain had the power of making laws for the colonies in which there w,is no Legislature, and I conceive they had even the right of taxing thein, although it is going further for the colonies than you will go for yourselves, for you w ill not allow that people ought to be taxed here without representation ; but I admit that where there is no representation, there should be some supreme legislative power. Do you entertain any doubt that the duties were legally imposed by the Act of 1774, and also legally appropriated? — I believe that the Legislature had a right to make the law, and that they had a right to make the ap|)ropriation. Have you any doubt that that law is at this moment binding in Canada? — Yes, I have strong doubts. What do those doubts arise from ? — They arise from the circumstances I was goitig to detail. While there was no legislative body in the colony, it wasa|)ower whic-u seems to me to belong to that of the empire, of regulating the whole affairs of all the dependencies of the empire; but the moment there was constituted a representative body, then that body naturally took the whole control of the revenue of the country; and this declaratory Act of 1778 supported it in that, because it is said that all the duti.s that were to be levied thereafter by Great llritain were to be appropriated in the ('olonial Legislature; in fact, we have held that the appropriation was altered by the Act of 1778 and the Act of 17<)I, and that the appropriation (ell of course then to the Assembly, as the natural body that ought to have the control over the expenditure of money raised on its constituents. Wc have not contended that the Legislature had not the power of passing the Act at that time ; but we say that the general principle is this, that all the taxes levied by the Legislature shall be applied by the Legislature of the colonies • and with respect to the Act of 1774, we .say that there may be doubts upon the subject, for when the Act of I7()i was passed, it was the general opinion that it repealed the Act of 1774, sr far as the appropriations were concerned. In consequence of that, the Dritish (.iovemment sent a message through the Governor to the Legisla- ture in 1 794, saying that as there were difliculties on the subject, the moment duties were raised similar to those provided by that Act tliey would apply to Parliament for the repeal of taat .Act. The consequence was, that in the Colonial Legislature tiicy did grant duties in lieu of the duties under that Act, and a bill was sent home to GoveriHuent here, which was approved of by the King in Council, enacting those duties. 'Ihe ;\ct came out, ap|)roved by the King in Council, and ought to have \kv\\ in t'orci^ ; however, it arrived too late. The Ciovernor recommended it afterwards to 'he Legislature, and they passed it; so that in I7<)f) it was finally passi'd, and approved of by the (iovernor, conformably to the approbation that had already been made by the King in Council. It however ha|)pened that there was never any reconnnendation by tlie British tiovernment to repeal the Act of 1774, aiid tliiri! it has remained, and we are the uni'ortunate victims of the quarrel that has ensued in consequence of that. Are you aware that there is no instance of a Colonial Act repealing a British Act: - We do not pretend any such thing. 'I'hi' Act ol' the 31st of the late King contains the following I'rcambic : " U'hereas an Act was passed in the 1 4th year of the reign of his present Majesty, intituled, luntry, that or from tlwJ U is very uties, 1 l)«- be illegal, of Antij^ua, were illegal 1 people as Of course have always )anied by an however of jcussed, and ng illegal for \ct of 1774' e Legislature which there taxing thein, Durselves, for LMitation ; hut ome supreme ;d by the Act ilaturc had a riation. anada ? — Yes, istances I was it was a power c whole utl'airs ifas constituted control of the ■ted it in that, after by (Jreut t, we have held of 17<)1, a>>*l turul body that ts constituents. )as.siug the Act le taxes levied lies ; and with the subject, for it repealed the ;onsequence of to the Lcgislu- ; moment duties , to Parliament »ial Legislature 1 was sent home )uncil, enacting il, and ought to reconimciidcd il )() it was finally pprobation that )i'ue(l that there pcul the Act of is of the quarrel joaliug a British ving I'reamble : present Majesty, intiluled, ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 73 intituled, ' An Act for makine more effectual provision for the Government of the Province of Quebec in North America :' And whereas the said Act is in many respects inapplicable to the present condition and circumstances of the said pro- vince : And whereas it is expedient and necessary that further provision should now be made for the good eovemment and prosperity thereof; may it therefore please your most excellent Majesty, that it may be enacted ; and be it enacted by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by tlie authority of the same, that so much of the said Act as in any manner relates to the appointment of a Council for the affairs of the said province of Quebec, or to the power given by the said Act to the said Council, or to the major part of them, to make ordinances for the peace, welfare,, and good government of the said province, with the consent of His Majesty's Governor, Lieutenant- Governor, or Commander-in-Chief for the time being, shall be and the same is hereby repealed." Do you not therefore admit that in the Quebec Act of 31 Geo. 3, part of the Act of the 14 Geo. 3. was distinctly repealed, and the remainder of it distinctly confirmed ? — That is not the Act referred to ; chapter 88 is the Revenue Act, but the Revenue Act was not mentioned in the Act of 1791. There was a new constitution given to the country, and not a word said about the Act of 1 774, and it raised a dispute so early as 1 794 ; and upon that dispute the Government at home, by means of their Governor, told the Legislature that they would repeal the Act if they would grant similar duties to the same amount ; they did so, but the Government never recommended to Parliament to repeal the Act; in fact, somebody or other in the colony advised against it at that time. Does not the repeal of a portion of the Act of 17 Geo. 3, c. 83, without the repeal of any part of the 14 Geo. 3, c. 88, a contemporaneous Act which imposed duties, show that the British House of Commons in 1791, when the Quebec Act was passed, did not intend to concede to the Legislature of Lower Canada a control over the revenue levied by the Act of 14 Geo. 3, c. 88, but on the contrary intended to preserve as law and unrepealed part of the 1 4 Geo. 3, c. 83, and the whole of the 14 Geo. 3, c. 88? — I am no lawyer; it seems to me that that is a question for a lawyer. As a very humble constitutional lawyer, I should say, that in gi'^^ing a new constitution to the country it would be necessary to say what is repealed and what is not repealed ; the Act of 1 774, c. 88, is not men- tioned at all in that Act of 1791, and it is probably its omission that gave rise to this early difference of opinion in 1794. Are the Committee to understand that the duties which were originally levied under the Act of the 14th of the late King, have been since levied by the Colonial Act of the year 1 799 ? — That Act is not in force, because it could not be enforced till His Majesty's ministers recommended to Parliament to repeal the Act of 1774. But it actually passed the two Houses? — It did, and received the Royal a.ssent ; it stands in our statute book as a law, waiting the performance of the con- dition by the British Government for it to come into force. That condition being the repeal of the Act of 1774 ? — Yes. What was it that prevented the Act recommended in the year 1 794 from being passed till the year 1799? — It passed the Assembly in 1795 or 6, and was sent home to be approved of; it wfts approved of by the King in Council, but it came out too late to be enforced ; it came out after the two years had expired. In a subsequent session, the Governor recommended the Act to be renewed. It was renewed and passed, and stands a law in our statute hook; but its being enforced depends upon the exec\ition of the engagement on the part of the ministers to repeal the Act of 1774. Then, at this moment, would the repeal by the British Parliament of the Act of 1774, ipso /ado, call into operation that Act of the colonial Legi.slature of the year 1799? — ^^^'> and it would give the Government the full appropriation of 11,000/. a year, without limit by the Legislature of the colony. The contest is now whether there shall be appropriations which never have obtained the consent of the Legislature of the colony : when once the appropriation has obtained the consent of the Legislature of the colony we have tied up our own hands ; but when it has not obtained the consent of the Legislature of the colony we stand upon the broad principle that the people of the colony have a right to make an appropriation of the monies that they pay. .'»«'»9. K ' !)• John Ktibon, to May i8sS. John NeUioH, Etf. io May iS'aS. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HErOKE SELECT COMMITTEE Do you mean to Rtate, therefore, thiit by the repeal oi' tlie Act of 1 774, the Crown would have for its own uppropriiition, unrestricted by the Assembly, the sum of 1 1,000 /. a yenr r— Yes. Does the House of Assembly also lay claim to the amount of 5,000 /. a year in lieu of the territorial revenue of the Crown? — The Mouse of Assembly has laid claim to the territorial revenue of the Crown, because it gave 5,000/. a year in the year 1794 or 5, after the Ciovernor had told the Legislature that the Crown gave up its territorial revenue to the province. Does the House of Assembly contend that 5,000/. a year is to be appropriated by the House of Assembly ?— They would say that if the Crown were not to come forward and ask for more money, it is ijone ; but if the (iovernment comes for- ward and asks for more money, they may say that money is misapplied, and it ought to be applied in such a way. Will you state the progress of the disputes when those principles came practi- cally into effect, upon Sir John Slicrbrook, in 18 1 8, calling upon the Legislature to provide for the civil establishment? — I have got already to the year 1 ^^)g, when this bill was j)asscd, giving a sum in lieu of the Act of 1 774. Things went on tolerably well till the year 1809, the expenses were increasing very much, and the Assembly got alarmed, and they had a quarrel with the Governor. It was then said that Great Britain had been paying a great part of the money during all this time; whenever they applied to control the expenditure, they were told Great Britain pays this, what business have you to interfere ? they said, well then we would rather taki the whole of the expenses iinon ourselves, so as to control the whole, for by-and-by it will be saddled upon us. 'Ihcn they made the famous offer to pay the civil list, and they heard no move about it. The war began in 1812, and they gave all that they had, and more than they had, for the war ; they authorized the issuing of paper money in the country, and there was no quarrel about the civil list, or any thing else ; but after the war. Sir John Sherbrook came out ; he found every thing in such a state of disorder that he represented it at home, and the Government here told him to get the accounts settled every year in the House of Assembly. Then came the acceptance of the offer of 1810 to pay all the expenses of the Government ; they said, we will take all the expenses from you ; the expenses in the mean time had augmented from about 40,000 /. to about no,ooo/. The Assembly then said, we will pay tlie whole of the expenses ; they then agreed to give the sum the Governor asked, which was in addition to the revenue that he assumed to be appro[)riatcd, and tlicy reserved to themselves the right of examining into all the expenditure the next year. Was there any bill passed that year, or was a resolution passed by the House of Assembly promising to indemnify the Governor ? — Precisely so, an address for money. The next year the Duke of Richmond asked for uu addition of 1 6,000 /. ; that alarmed the Assembly ; they had already accepted of an addition of one half, from the time they offered to take up the expenses ; but when the Duke of Rich- mond came and asked for 1 6,000/. more, they began to get alarmed; they appointed committees to exatnine into the expenditure, and to check it, and they, did examine and check every i!em of it, and they began to vote it by items, and they 1 ft out all the increased c:(pcnses, but offered to pay the expinses as they stood m 1817, and passed a bill and sent it up to the Legislative Council, allowing all those expenses. The Legislative Council threw out that bill, upon the ground that it was not safe to take an annual bill. Did not the Legislative Council also object on the ground of the vote being made by items? — No; because it was an annual bill. At the same time the Assembly made good its vote of the preceding year, because they conceived themselves bound in honour not to have any (juarrel about what had been advanced upon their address, although there were some items of expenditure that they objected to, and the bill passed. Then the Duke of Richmond unfor- tunately died, and in 1820 there was an irregularity in calling the Assembly, and there was no estimate, and no vote laid before the Assembly. Sir Peregrine Maitland convened the Assembly before the returns were all made, and the Assembly objected that the Governor ou^ht not to convene the .A.ssembly till the House was complete ; because tlicy said, if he might convene it before the time fixed for the returns, he might convene it before half of them were returned. Things remained in that state till news came of the death of the King, and then there was a dissolution. At the close of 1820, Lord Dalhousie came; and he asked, warn igg_ ON TIIK CIVIL (iOVMUNMKNT Dl' CANADA. 75 i asked, that whatever they had to p;ive nhoiiM lio f(ivoii pcrnmnontly : they told him at once that they would not give any thinj^ in addition to what they had already given permanently. Of course, nothing wu» doiU! ; they passed however a bill in some shape or other, which it wa» Nuiil would bo less oojectionable ; it went up to the Legislative Council, and it was rd'tised. It was refused by the Legislative Council upon its being detailed, and not being for the life of the King. The next year Lord Dalhousic asked for a bill for the life of the King; the Assembly sent home a very long address to this country, as reasons for not complying, and the Legislature finally broke up without anv bill being passed. Lord Dalhousie asked for a sum of money, which tlu'y Miiid they could not grant till they had an answer from this country to their representation. The session finished without any bill being passed, and then camo the famous Union project. In the subsequent year there was a bill for a part of the money passed, in 1 823. In 1824 the receiver-general failed, and the nppropriutions already made by the Legislature were not paid ; the members got ularmed, and sumo ot them, against which I protested, voted a reduction of one-fourth of the expenditure to meet the empty state of the chest; that of course was not accepted, it was rejected in' the Legislative Council. In 1824 Lord Dalhousiu came home, and Sir Francis Uurton took the Government. In 1K.25, a Dill huh agreed to by ail parties, to add an indefinite sum to the indefinite umouiit of the appropriations already mudc, to make up the total amount of the wliule expenditure ; lor the Assembly had fori!;otten the alarm in 1824 about the empty cinmt, and they were willing to continue tlio ex|)enses at the same rate, Thut was accepted by the Legisla- tive Council, with two dissentients, and it wm ucceptod by the Lieutenant- Governor, and tlic whole country was in a statu of joy at the end of our difficulties. Had not the Assembly reduced the estimate ?-"Tlio Assembly has still per- sisted in refusing to recognize some new olliceM, ubsLiitees, and sinecures that were objected to in 1819; it objected to them, and it had finally decided that it would not pay them in 1819 ; it still refused to recognize tlirm, and one or two were removed, or at least they agreed to give pensions in their stead, but they still voted a sum less than was asked by the LieuteniiMt'(iovernor, by about 3,000/. At that time the whole country was at peace, there were not two parties existing in the country ; tinfortunately that bill was niisuiKlcrstood in this country, at least it was not approved of in this CDuntiy ; it was sanctioned by the King, and it was the law ot the land, but, I believe, it was not approved by the gentleman then at the head of the Colonial Deiiartmciiti Then in 1826 the Assembly ofl'ered the same bill as Sir Francis Hurton and the Council had accepted in 1825 ; and in 1827 it offered to pasi« th« same bill auain. The bill of 1826 is the only one which came back amended, Itefore that the Council had declared that they would not proceed upon any such bills, but this time they did proceed so far as to send it back amended, Such is the whole history of the dispute about the appropriation Bills, and the Act of 1774, so far as I am ac()uainted with them ; and the conclusion of tliu whole is, that there was no House at all this last year. You have stated that the bill of 1 825 which was accepted by the Legislative Council produced universal satisfaction in Canada /'■—It did. In point of fact, was not the effect of that bill in \Hi!f to do away altogether with charges to the amount of 3,000/. per annum, which the Crown, by virtue of the Act of 14th Geo. 3, applied to certain purposes of civil government in the Cunadas? — I do not know how far it was donig awity with them, but certainly the Assembly refused to pay those items. Then in point of fact, the Assembly by refusing to pay those items did interfere wit!) the power of the Crown in charging tlie revenue raised under the British Adt with those items ?— I should conceiw that the Assembly did interfere with the power of the Crown in charging it upon the revenues that hod been considered as tl.„ public revenues of the province, but it did not prevent the Crown from charging them upon other revenues that it derived from the province ; it did not prevent the Crown from paying those salaries out of the rovtniucs dcrivtd from some Acts of Charles the First or Charles the Second, and other Acts, of the proceeds of which we had never heard a word. Upper (Janadtt has claimed them, but we never have claimed them. It did not prevent the (^'rown from paying them out of the revenues of the Jt suits estates, if those revemies belonged to it; it did r)f>9' K 3 not John fltUsm, Eiq. 30 Mrty 1818. su M»y i8'i8. 76 MINUTES OF RVIDKNCK MKI'OUK SKLKCT COMMITTEE not prevent the Crown from pnyinK thmn out of llic revenues of the Crown Itndsi for the Crown is tlio greutoit proprietor of ruiorvcd lundii in the province ; it did not prevent the Crown from puyiiiK tlioni out of tny source that is not part of the public revenue of the province. Although the Crown n)it{hl hnvt* paid thoN«< items amounting to 3,000/. out of some other revenue, did it not ertitctunliy nrovcnt the Crown from paying them out of that revenue out of which lht •< mixed up together in the hands ui* the receiver-general, that which is apprc priated and that which is not appropriated. There is part of it avowed by both parties not to be appropriated, and tlie expenses of the Government have been paid by the Governor himself, with the consent of the Executive Council, out of the chest as it stands, without any appropriation ; so that now of the money that the Governor has applied there is about I4(i,0(t()/. that is paid without any appro- priation at all even alleged by the Ouvernor. It is justified on the part of the Colonial Government as a case of iicressity, but necessity will always furnish a law and pretence for every tiling. Do things remain in that state now ? 'i'hey arc worse now, the Legislature is suspended ; the Act of 1791 is suspended in the colony ; that Act requires that the Legislature should assemble once in I a months to look to the afl'airs of the province, but there is no Legislature assembled, nor likely to be any till after the month of May. A number of the temporary Acts expire on the 1st of May. Are those Acts under which duties are collected ? — No ; if they had been, it would have been a difl'erent story j but they are Acts of public utility ; Acts regulating the inspection of ashes and beef, or some things of that kind. Unless it IS pretended that the mere meeting of the Legislature is a calling together of the legislature for the despatch of biisiiiesN, and that you may get the L^islature to mcbt and not suffer it to proceed to business for ao years to come, the Act of Parliament is actually suspended at the present moment, and the money is applied as the Governor and Council please. Since there has been no vutu of the Legislature fur the payment of the expenses, front -msmmiam^i^'" riEE Town lands, ince ; it did t part of the 000 /. out of laying them the revenue II from what m were put d up ; I be- i.stant inter- erc emptied Vith respect t amounted y objection- : applied to r they have ) when they during the these sums ' ever; the before the Dse 3,000 /. tk for them- ition of the ly have the tte that the iincil alone, ilf into two itive enact- so appro- }priated by he revenue y has h<> • I is appro- ed by both have been icil, out of noney that iny appro- )art of the furnish a ^islature is :|uires that lira of the any till •e on the been, it lity; Acts Unless 3gelher of ^gislature he Act of is applied expenses, front ON THE CIVIL C;OVERNMENT OF CANADA. 77 from what resources have the Government drawn for their expenhcs ? — From the rccciviTgenernrs chest; the whole of the money raised by the Acts of this I^egislature and of the Colonial Legislature have been deposited in the hands of a receiver general named by this coimtry. Many of those Acts are permanent Acts, for the Legislature of Lower (Janadn had not the precaution to make the revenue Acts annual as well as the appropriation bills. In other colonies they have made it a rule to make the revenue Acts annual, but we were foolish enough to make the revenue Acts permanent ; so that the revenue comes into the chest, although it is not appropriated, and the executive takes it out of the chest without appropriation. Would not an action lie against the receiver-jjeneral for issuing money without its being properly appropriated ? — The receiver-general is an officer of ;he treasury. Are all the revenue Acts permanent ? — I believe that every revenue Act is per- manent. Has there ever been any proposition in the Assembly to pass an Indemnity Act ?— Yes, they passed an indemnity in 1 833 fo"" ^^^ whole of the expenses that had been voted by the Assembly, they passed an Act of indemnity, clearing Sir John Slierbrook's administration for the excess tliat he paid beyond the amount of the Act of Appropriation, an excess of six or seven thousand pounds. They passed an Act, clearing the subsequent administrations, apd even for the year 1820, when there was no estimate laid before the House; they passed an Act clearing the whole up to 1823. Was the reason of the Legislative Council not passing those bills, that they professed to indemnify the Government for what the Government did not consider anv indemnity to be required? — No ; I believe the reason was that the Act wfjj informally expressed ; it was an indemnity to His Majesty ; it ought to have been an indemnity to those who advised His Majesty to take the money. Were those bills lost in the Council ? — Tliey were all, except the bill indemnify- ing Sir John Sherbrook. Did the bill, indemnifying His Majesty, actually pass the House of Assembly? — Yes, for all that they had voted ; they never indemnified for what they had not voteil. Do tiiose permanent revenue Acts raise sufficient for the maintenance of the Civil (iovernment? — Yes, more than sufficient; but the expenses of the Civil Government iiave always grown with the amount of the revenue, because they have never been controlled by the representatives of the people in the colonies. Are there many sinecures in Lower Canada? — No; I believe that seven or eight, that were objected to from the commencement, are the whole ; there were several others, but they were changed into pensions, but it was insisted that those should he maintained as officers ; now the officers are not resident in the colonies, and have no duties attaciied to their offices. You stated that the Assembly objected to the items included in the 3,000/. because they were afraid they should perpetuate them after the death of the parties holding them; are the Committee to understand, that, as far as your opinion goes, you see no objection to pay those items, provided it was understood that they were to be discontinued after the death of the parties ?— As a member of the Legislature, I cannot say what I wotdd do ; as a private individual, I would have no objection to allow those people that have, through our negligence, got allow- ances made to them, to have them continued to them during their life. Has not the Assembly of Lower Canada invariably objected to superannuations of all sorts? — Since they claimed a control over the expenditure ; but they have never exercised any control over the expenditure, it has been resisted. What proportion of the general expenditure of Lower Canada did the Crown revenue bear to that which was raised by local Acts in the province? — There is a great deal of confusion with respect to the words " Crown revenue ; " what is com- monly called Crown revenue consists of those Acts anterior to 1774, Charles the 2d, and George the 1st, and so on ; we have not regular accounts of their proceeds; the other Crown revenue is the 14th of the King, which is also called the Crown revenue and ths territorial revenue ; all those revenues together might amount to between 30,000/. and 40,000/. Supposing them to amount to that sum ; what is the average amount of the revenue rai.sed by local statutes for the purposes of the Government? — The total 5/. 11 year, u lur(;t propoitiou of wliicli ^ju«!S to the _. , 1,1 u or I ,'i ptT ci;»t, prrlm|)s, wliich we «oiisi(k'r is enorniouH ; ao May i8i8. Xlicn one ftiurlli of thf net revenue j^oes to Upper C'miiulii, exilusive of tho territorial ; tliili llie rest remuins the net revenue for Lower Cunailu, of ()o,0(>o/. ; of this, I believe, the exi . iitive Cioverniniiit ilaiaw to npprupriutj between 30,000/. siKil 40,000/., 80 tiiat there would remain about ,'io,ooo/. to be up- propriated by the Lc;;islnturc nrcordinjj to the prelennioUH of the executive f iovernnient nf the province ; tliat i.s to eover the whole ot the expeii.st-* for local improvement!), and the iinuual < liaritable uppropriatioris, which last amonnt to about i.'-,,ooo/. You stated that the Lej^islature of Lower ('annda havinjir no control over the ,snlarie> of the otlii-ers of the civil ifovernnietit, their .salaries were excessive; will you point out what salaries of ollicers appointed by the Crown yi)ii consider as excessive : — I consider a j^reat ninny of them as exces.sivt; ; I should say for instance, that all salaries wliich are accumulated, three or four upon one person are excessive; with respect to the petitionem I would say, that the j^encral i'telinj^ of the country is, that the salaries ure too bi;;h, relutivcly to the means of living in the country. Are the petitions for which you i'rc an ajrent here, siifned exclusively by the French population of L'>Wt'r Canada. No, tliey are signed fjenerally by the population of Lower (,'anada, exceptinfj in the townships, the district of St. Francis, and in the district of Ciaspi^, for which no petition; were .sent. Flave you any idea of the ninnl)crof l*lnf;lish signatures upon these petitions? — Yes, in consecjuence of sonu; things that had been said, we took tho trouble to count; the whole number as stated to me by the secretary of the Montreal com- mittee, is above 87,000, anil two gentlemen who live in Montreal coimted the Montreal petition, at least that part of the petition that contains 40,000 signatures, and they lound that there were ^.(ijt") Knglish names in tiie 40,000, about one sixteenth of the whole. Arc those chiefly Catholics? — 'I'hey ore both Catholics and I'rotestants. I do not know the projiortion of them ; 1 coiuited the (Quebec |)etition just in the manner in which it unrolls, 1,171 names. In that |)etition they took care to state those that were proprietors, and those that were not proprietors ; they generally are stated to ha proprietors ; and the fact of the jietitiou being known and approved of by the parties, is certified by two witnesses who were present at the time, because many of them unfortunately cannot write their names. Of the 1,171 names that I counted, I began first with 200 in the town of Quebec and tlie adja- cent country, there were of those iictual signatures 48, the total of Knglish names 19 out of the JOo; of the English names with crosses there were four. 64 of St. Nicholas on the south shore, five signatures; no Fnglish names at all. 200 of St. Henry below Quebec, 16 signatures; no English names. 200 of ditto, 13 signatures; five F^nglish names, four crosses. i87of Cape Saint Ignace, 45 miles below Quebec, 10 signatures ; no F'nglish names. 200 of River Quelle, 60 miles below Quebec, 33 signatures; three English names. 120 at Quebec, 81 signatures; 34 EnglLsh names, and six with crosses. So that that makes of the 1,171, 2ofi signature.s, 61 of them English names, and 14 English names with crosses, which makes one-fifth of the whole actual signatures, one nineteenth of the whole English names. Was the petition sent at all into the townships ? — Not at all ; because there was not sufficient time ; there was no idea of sending any jierson to England till after the prorogation of the House, and it wa.s desired that somebody should come home before the meeting of Parliament. Do you believe that those petitions .vould have obtained many signatures in the townships if they bad been sent there? — I should conceive that they would obtain aignaturev in the townships. I'lTKE ON THE CIVIL (lOVEUNMENT OF ( ANADA. '9 us Hmotinteu ■ jjfotis to the 1 is eiiormoim ; usivo of tho of i)i>,0()0 1. ; Htj betHucii • to be si|>< le executive ; iN( 's for local , t amount to •■ ol over the ' I'ssivi!; will cuiiNider m old say for . one person ' icral ft«'linj» ■, IS of livinjf : vcly by the I, oxcoptiug (ittspe, for ; J petitions ? ■ ^ D trouble to ntreul corn- i ountod the sifj^nntures, '• about one , wM mts. I do W ust iu tho ire to state generally nown and ent at the "the 1,171 the adja- ish names ur. 64 of es at all. •Joo of it Imnacc, er Quelle, Quebec, makes of sh names iiietcenth i use there % ^'land till 4 "Id come at II res in : m !y would m SMali, 24* die Moij, 1828. « John NeiUoH, Esquire, again called in ; iinti Examined. HAVE you brought with you any of the Papers referred to in your former evidence? — I have brought copies of the Dills that were referred to. — [Thexi'itncsa ilcliveral in the same.] (ieneraliy, are those bills which passed the House of Assembly, and were rejected in the I.eginlutive Council ? — They arc. I stated that some of the bills had been sent back, which was not perfectly correct. I consulted the journals of the Legislative Council, and from those journals I took a memorandum 6f the fate of the diflerent bills, which I have here. — [The witness delivered in the wwe.] Vdu stated in your former examination that the two legislative bodies had each uf them enacted certain standing orders, by which it was determined that they should not pass certain bills that came from the one body to the other; have yott got those standing orders ? — I have. — [Thexvitnesa deliveredin the same] Have the Assembly hitherto rejected every proposal which has been made for the purpose of arranging a civil list, or a settled system of payment for any nuinljcr of officers connected with the Government, and the executive?— There never has been any such proposal made for any certain number of officers belonging to the executive What proposals have been made? — 1 he first proposal was, that all monty that the Assembly .should vote should be voted permanently for the support of the Cioverniuent. The next was, that it should be during the life of the King- and latterly it has been pretended, on the part of the executive, that certain oflicers of the Civil Government were provided for already out of the monies that are appro- priated generally for the support of the Civil (jovcrnment, and the administration of justice ; so that there has been no direct proposal to the Assembly to provide for such and such officers, but this general proposition, to give whatever they meant to give permanently. Has there been any proposal that a certain sum of money should be given out, of which certain specified officers should be provided for? — No; there has been a proposal that certain officers, being already provided for, the Assembly should firovide for the remainder ; that has been the nature of the proposal that has been utterly before the As.srnibjy. When you say that . iitain officers are already provided for, have the goodness to state what officers were included in that, and out of what fund they were stated to be provided for? — There has been some variation in the lists laid before the House, of the officers alleged to be provided for out of the monies of the 14th of the lafc King, and the appropriation ufthe .j/jth of the late King by the Provincial Legislature ; however, tliey will be found by reference to the lists laid before the Assembly, and in their journals. Can you enumerate them? — I cannot certainly, but I can give a general idea of them. Can you state the annual amount of the revenues arising under what you call the Act of 1774, which were commuted for the original monies due to the French Crown; does it exceed 5,000/. a year? — The annual monies under the 14th of the late King have varied very much, from 3,000/. to 2o,ooo/. ; they were about 10,000/. when a late Act of Parliament was passed, which repealed the Act allowing certain drawbacks upon exportations from Canada to the West Indie's; since that time the proceeds from tl i4tli of the late King have nearly doubled ; they have amounted to 19,000 /. or 20,000/. ; I mention the gross, without de- ducting the expenses of collection. Will you describe what the other portion of appropriated revenue is, to which' you have alluded, arising under the 3.5th of the late King? — £.5,000, voted by the Legislature as an aid for the support of the Civil Government and the admi- nistration of justice. Is that voted permanendy? — It is. In what way is that appropriated in detail ? — There is no detail of it in the Act ; it is a general appropriation in aid for the support of the Civil Government and the administration of justice. 56y- K 4 Have John Stilton, Eiq. — ^^— * ' 14 May 1838. John ti'eiltOH, Etg. <4 May 1838. m i \im ilf hi i mint ■ i- ii I'iSili Till ¥ 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Have the Government proposed to make any particular fixed appropriation of that ? — No, the claim has been, that they could dispose of it as they thought proper. Does the Legislative Assembly deny that claim ? — They deny that claim, in so far as Government asks for other monies from the Assembly, they say then we must take care that the whole is properly applied, because you may turn this to any use that you think proper, that is not even for the support of the Civil Government and the administration of justice, and still come upon us for the remainder. Has it ever occurred to your own mind that the mode could be chalked out in which the money might be appropriated to the maintenance of the difl'erent officers connected with the Government, so as not to let them depend actually upon an annual vote, but to make some arrangement similar in principle to a civil list? — I am very willing to answer that, excepting of course that I cannot engage myself as a member of the Assembly ; I « ill state what the Assembly has done, and you may judge from that what it would be willing to do. The Assembly has already granted a salary to the Lieutenant Governor during his resif'ence. h has already offered by bill to provide for the judges during good behaviour. The great difficulty, as it seems to me, hitherto, in respect of an arrangement, has been that its rights, or at least what the Assembly conceive to be its rights, were denied. I do not think that the Assembly is so very difficult abo!]t coming to an arrangement, but it stands very .strictly upon its right to con- trol the whole of the monies levied within the colony ; if that were not denied, I should suppose it would not be a difficult matter to make an arrangement that would be satisfactory to all parties, but they conceive that the only check they have upon any thing that may be injurious to the interests of the colony is the control that tbey have over the monies levied within the colony ; if you deny them that, you deny them all share or control in the Government of the country You are understood to say that they do not go so far as to iiold that it is desirable to keep all persons connected with the executive department of the Government dependent for their salaries upon an annual vote? — I cannot say as to that ; there are some that do entertain that notion, and very naturally, because thathas been the practice in the othercolonies. I believe that in Nova Scotia, where things go on very well, they have made all the revenue depend upon an annual vote of the Legislature, so that not only the appropriation of the money, but the very collecting of the money is dependent upon an annual vote of the Legislature ; there the Government and the Assembly go on very well in concert ; in the old colonies they kept the whole of the revenues subject to their vote annually ; it may appear extraordinary, but considering the circumstances of the colonies, it is not so very extraordinary. The governors .sent out from this country are far away from home ; they have great powers, much greater than the executive has here ; they have the whole military power at their di.spusal ; they have the nomination of every body, almost down to the parish o!licers, during pleasure; and if any thing is wrong, there is no remedy to be ex[>ect(!d in the colony, except from the power of the Assembly having a check upon the Ciovernor, or by coming to this country ; now coming to this country is rather a difficult matter. When the Ciovernment has a veto upon any thing being contributed on the part of the Public to support the expenses of coming here to ask for justice, it must be doner, as it has been done in this instance, by a kmd of miserable subscription ; therefore the Assemblies have been extremely jealous of the power over the monies levied within the colonie.>). In your opinion, could any arrangement be made of the sort alluded to in the question? — I am contident, judging from what has been done, that some officers might be provided for; and I am contident that the adminislration of justice would be permanently provided for. Is there much difference of opinion with regard to the amount of 'he salaries, as well as with regiird to the offices to be piovided for?— The salaries, in general, are considered as high ; in fact, they are high ; it is needless to conceal things, or to shut our eyes. People •i\ those countries begin to look round them, and see what is going on in other parts of llie world, and particularly in tin adjoining- country ; tliey see that there ^ovcrmin'nts an- well adinini>!('.i'd, and clii^tply udmiuistered ; and nutmally, a> tiu') [i-.u tor the adniiuistratijii of the (ioveiu- ^ meut, ,iii,i. PTEE ropriation of liey thought at claim, in ley say then )u may turn pport of the upon UH for lalked out iu the difl'erent lend actually rincipie to a hat 1 cannot le Assembly to do. The r during his during good aspect of an ' conceive to k'ery difficult •ight to con- not denied, igement that check they olony is the f you deny lent of the d that it is nent of the uinot say as lly, because sotia, where an annual ey, but the .egis'ature ; in the old innually ; it lonies, it is ire far away has here ; imi nation of f any thing the power ing to this When the ' the Public don(!, as it 1 ere fore the iiies levied d to in the me officers of justice salaries, as in general, tilings, or n, and see adjoining id ('iii'ipiy ii: (loveiii- mout. ON THE Civil, GOVERNMiBNT OF CANADA. $1 ■M I ment, they expect tliat it will be as well administer-^d, and as cheaply administered, as in the adjoining countries. In the state of New York, for instance, they have three times our population, and four or five times mv resources, and they pay not more than we do for the support o' lie Civil Ciovernment. In Lower Canada people shut their eyes to all these thing- but in Upper Canada they have their eyes wide open, and they will open their .^yes in Lower Canada; so that, gene- rally speaking, I siiould .say it is e.\treinely dangerous to increase the expenses Oi' Civil Govcniiuent in the North American i.o'onies jip-atly ^eyond the expense:; of Civil Governnient in the adjoining states. Is an objection entertained with regard to t(*e amount of those salaries, not only from ii comparison o'" what takes place in the I'nited .States, hut with re- ference to the incomes geuei'ally enjoyed by persons ii but that understood u ; and the ON 1HE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 83 that were n Canada o not know, da Tenures !ii t xtcnded ing, and the sitivoly, but re (!e. Will you read the clause in the Act of 1791 ? — This is the 43d ek use of the Act ; — " And be it further Enacted, by the authority aforesaid, >That «ll UndK which shall be hereafter granted within the .said Province of Upper Canada Rhttll be granted in free and common soccage in like manner as lands are now hutden in free and common soccage in that pan of Great Britain cs.lled England ;" {Uow is a positive enactment, that all lands granted in that province shall be granted in free and common soccage,) — " and that in every case where lands shall be horenfter granted within the said Province of Lovrer Canada, and where the grantee thereof shall desire the same to be granted in free ^nd common soccage, the same shall be so granted," (that is only where the persons desire it,) " but subject nevertheleHS to sucii alterations with respect to the nature and conse(|uences of such tenurt^ of free and common soccage as may be established by any law or laws wliiih a\ny he made by His Majesty, his heirs or successors, by and with the advice and von- sent of the Legislative Council and Assembly of the Province." It seemn to in&f that by that clause, and in fact by the declarations of ministers themselves, it wttfi intended to reserve the lands in Lower Canada for the increase of the population of Lower Canada, while the Upper Province was destined for the loyalists from ♦he United States and emigrants from this country. Do you found tiiat opinion upon the clause you have just read r — Ves. Will you point out u hut part of that clause leads you to that conclusion? — Because it positively enjoins tliat all ^jrunts shall be in free and common soccage in Upper Canada, and it .says that lauds may be granted in free and common soccage in Lower Canada, if the parties ask for it; that is leaving it to la* under* stood that the old tenure is to be continued in Lower Canada. The (jiiestion is not whether it was the intention of the Legislature to permit the granting of land in Lower Canada upon the tenui\; of seigneury, but who* ther it was the intention of tlu' Legislature that the French law should extend to the lands granted in free and common soccage. What is there in the cliiuite of the Act of 17<(I that would lead you to construe the clause in the Act of 1774, otherwise than that the F.nglish law was to prevail in lands granted in free and common soccage: — It seems to inc, that ^vherc lands were granted in free and common soccage, under the Act of 1774 the English laws were to extend to them; but it seems to me, by the Act of I7()i, that the old tenure was to be preserved in Lower Canada. In fact it has been uiidiM'.stood that the laws of Canada ])revailed all over the surface of the country. The Act of 171)1 permits that land should be granted in the province of Lower Canada upon free and couiinoii soccag<' to those who desire that it should be so granted. What is there in that Act which would lead you to suppose ihut lands granted under that permission, in free and common .soccage, are not subject to the operation of the .\( t of 1774?- It seems to nie that they would come under ihe openilion of the Act of 1774. Hut the diilitulty seems to arise from no •„rrants having heen made till alter tin; Ac* of I7'jl. »!• .:!i seemed t'l imply .imf the old luMure was to conliiiuo 111 Lower Canada. I'iucIichII} fi M- miim>f'!> ■ li rxEE i granted hv on socpage, sition in thin ; in hu% this ipendence in at thnt *iinfl need, wliieli (Wfiver, upon nd in i^wor ii Act might it could not IRC. -No donbt ; granted l»y ibsequent to iIh Act, but nds till after ij»e of thfl at all land* Junada Hhall now hulden and;" (here e granted in be hereafter mtee thereof ime shall be neverthniess ch tenure of wliiilj nwy ce and v-ini- eeniH to irie, ilves, it was population yaiists from es. iicluiiion ?-'-- ion soccage id common b»' under- G to permit , hiK who. )uld I'ktend tlie clause lilt! Act of (granted in grmitpd in V. to cktcnd B wm to be he laws of province of at it should iippoHft that imt (iubject 'oiild come isc froui no imply .;iii( I'nu'licuHv tJN TUK (.'I VII, (U)VHHNMRNT OF CANADA. 85 Practically in the townships hiivc peisons inherited property according to the English law, or according to the French law?-— They have inherited property, I Huspect, according to the lans of tho llnite« ; in liict it is their marriage portion. You have iaid that the Knglish mode of conveyancing, which has been adopted m the townships, is very expensive; nrt you ac(|uainted with the mode of ';on- veying land which is resortt'd (0 in the (inited States: -I believe, both in the United Statei and in Canada it is done very eheapl). {/t Dieil uuix nhown to the IVUmsti.] Have you ever before .ecu a document similar to that which you hold in your hand r — Never ; 1 neve h;ul iiny property i,i that country. Describe what it purports to he f- It is a grant of land l)y the State of New York to an individual. The granti by our (iovernment to individuals are not much more complicated thim this. This is very much like one of our grants, excejjt that our law otticers choo^sc lo put in a great many more words. Have tilt! goodness to look ut that docimicnt {another deed being shoam to the aitncus), what does that purport to be''— If appears to be a conveyance of land from one individual to another in the State of New York. What do you believe the cxpeuse of such a conveyance would be? — I do not suppo,sc the exj)! use of this could be nuire than about four dollars. Can you form any. judgiiieiit what it wodid cost under the English form to make n tonvcyanc ■ lor Miiiilur piirpi-'eH- I CHniiot speak to that, but I believe there arc very few ilsat arc ;il)le to make out a good title in the English form in Canada ; those that ] have lu ard speak on the subject, have said that they could not get aiiydonciit I'ss than live guineas, now I iielievp many would be very glad to get five guineti'j tor certaiii lots of huid. In fact, IS the conviyaiuc of land in Cnuiida a matter of {ifrcHl expense? — I ((Mild roiiviy my e.-tafif. ni ihr m'i^;iii urns (or 7*-, (if/, ■>''<)• ' I',] Is John Ntilvm, %4f May i8a8. 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jukn Srihuii, 34 Alay iSiS. Is there any diiference between the expense of a grant of land n seiccneurv and in free and common soccage ? — The titles of the seigneuries in Lo'»er Canada are not larger than a small scrap of paper. How is it in the townships? — There is a long roll of parchment, but that is at the taste of the law officer more than any thing else. Is it difficult to traneatitle in the seigneuries ? — No, it is not difficult. The notary keeps a minute, and when the notary dies, the minute is taken and de- posited in the records of the King's Bench, where they are all put away in raults, and there is a repertoire of the whole, so that you can by going there find out a deed made by any notary. The notary is obliged by law to keep all his minutes in a certain order, and when he dies, the King takes pos;.ssiun of the whole of his records, and they are deposited in the office of the prothonotary of the King's Bench for the district in which the notary officiated. Has it not been frequently proposed to establish an office for the registry of deeds ? — There have been frequent proposals. Have th;y l)ecn successful? — Not any of them. " ■ Will you state what steps have been taken to carry them into effect ; have bills 111 that etiect been brought into the House of Assembly ? — There has been only one bill brought into the House of Assembly, which was lost by a majority of four or five. Will you state what are the grounds of objection to the establishment of a register? — There are a great many grounds of objection; different persons had different reasons for voting on the subject. I, in the first instance, voted in favour of the measure, and afterwards I voted against it ; that is to say, I vdted for the introduction of the measure, and when I came to examine into the details I found that the thing was not practicable. The only motive that I had was to prevent fraud, and I found that the bill as proposed would occasion more fraud than it would prevent, and therefore I thought it was better to remain as we '»ere. The truth is, that almost every head of a family in that province is a proprietor of land, and they, unfortunately, are not educated, at least many of the proprietors of land have been deprived of tiie means of education ; they cannot do their own business; they could not comply with tiic formalities required by the Register Act; they would be obliged to empluy law agents and persons of liiat description, whom we find, by experience, are not always safe, particularly such us the great body of the |)eople are obliged sometimes to employ ; they are of an inferior description, and may trick them in all kinds of ways. Now, by that law there is not one man that would iiot be obliged, at one time or other, to come into those register offices, and, in fact, to put himself into tlu; hands (if ii law agent to do the business for him, and there is not one of them liar'lly that would be salb. Under those circum- stances they would lose their privilege's ; wives would lose their privileges; chil- dren would lose their privileges ; persons who havv advanced money would lose their priviluL^es ; and there would be probably fraudulent entries made in the book of registers wiiirh gives the privilege; so that, in reality, a great many of the poor people would be deprived of their only -cans of support, which is the land upon which they work. Would it n<)t be possible, under . present state of things, for a person to bor- row money and to go before a notary, giving what would l/e, to all appearance, a security on land for that money, and that, nevertheless, other conveyances might have been made of tbat land, or other money might have been borrowed upon it; so tha*, in point of tact, that wbii h would l»f an apparent security would be no security ? — No doubt. Would not a rt:gi^•.ry prt:veiit the possibdily ot that taking placer — It would have a tendency to prevent the possibilitv of that taking place. Dor-, the ditficulty of establisinug a recivTN arise trnm the nature of the tenures and tilt, inodt of distributing tiie land held ui the seigneuries-— Not at all ; it arises trom tlie people not being able to read and write, and the dispersed state of the coMutrv. is 11 your opuiion that if the people »ere better educated such a register \vouId be bt-nehcial r — There is no doubt that a register office might lye established for l^ucbui, and Montreal with a tolerable Jegree 'it sMtety, dimiuisliu.g the risk of tiiuse trauds beiiii; committed '"latan. committed now. I ought, however, to have -taXed, with rtspet t to those trauds that jit committed, that the rea.son why they are coinniittsd frequently i>, that thr taw winch pmiislicd lor tin- kind of f'.iud has Iteen I 'I W'l^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 8? been sufl'ered to become extinct. The French law was very severe utjrainst thoM p«nons who mortguged property that was already mortgaged before without declaring it ; it was considered as one of the penal laws ; but in consequence of the introduction of the English criminal law there was no statute which sufficiently provided for that kind of crime. The crime was one peculiar to the French system of laws, and it was provided for by the French criminal code, but it was not suf- ficiently provided for in the English criminal code. Has any remedy ever been proposed in the House of Assembly r — Yes, it hM been proposed in the House of Assembly to renew that punishment, so that the p^sons that committed that fraud might be subject to pillory and imprisonment in that country, as well as they were in France. Is it difficult to borrow money in Canada in consequence of that mode of transmission of property ? — No, but on that subject there arc a great many errors ; there has been a talk of much greater fraud than there really was ; from a circumstance unavoidable in a new country, people have been supposed to be dishonest when they were no such thing. Thirteen years ago, land in Canada was worth double uhat it is to day ; at that time it was quite fair in a man who had land worth 2,000/. to take 2,000/. upon that land ; but now, that land is diminished so as to be worth only 1,000/., he has taken 1,000/. more than the land is worth, and he appears to have been committing a kind of fraud, but there was no fraud in reality; but the moment a man has lent money in that way and loses it, he finds it convenient to accuse the person of being guilty of fraud and deception when it is not the case ; it is owing to the great variation in the value of landed property in that country. This Parliament may make the vn''ue of all lands in Canada increase or diminish by one half, by one single Act. If you, for instance, admit our corn at a certain duty in this country, it will imme- diately increase the value of land in Canada : if you reject it, it will diminish the value of land in Canada ; and you may in fact, by one single clause in a Corn Bill, increase or diminish the value of land in Canada by probably one half; under these circumstances, it is not surprising that people should occasionally lose money that is lent upon landed property, and every man that loses money raises an outcry about it. Is there any difficulty in borrowing money upon land in Canada? — There is, because there arc few who have any money to lend. Is it not the habit of persons who have accumulated fortunes in Canada to transmit them to England, rather than to lay them out in that country ? — It is iinilHr to that which you say works so well in the IJnited States, in what «vay could it berrcried into effect-- Of course by an Act of the local Legislature. 'J he whole sy.stein, .is i ,«aid before, is hitherto ;i 1 leiuh sytrrr, .f i^i)viinmf>nt ; it ON TMK Civil. (lOVKKNMIilVT OK ('ANADA. %i, it leaves nothing to be doiu- l)y tint people. It Would tie necessary to organize the counties, and to fr'wc. the pioprietoiH lertnin powers of interference in their own atVairs. Are tlie eoiinties snb-divided?- Tlitre liiii* lieun no alteration in the division of eounties since the year 17().2, What sub-division exists nt present (-The old settled pnrt of the country is divided into parishes, and the newer Hcttled i« divided into townships and counties ; but the division has been nmde merely with n view to representation ; there is no organization of counties, thern itre no quarter sessions and no courts of justice: every body is obliged to come to (juehee, Montreal and Three Rivers. Are there any magistrates appointed for the e(n(nties?— 'I'here are. Would itbe desirable, in your view, to establish nuartcr sessions ? — Yes, provided magistrates are qualified ; but they refuse to f the majority that may l)r farther off, but iu the im- mediate vicinity it is always at first the hinguuge of tht; majority that carries it. Is that language the French language r--'l'lial is the language of nine-tenths of the people. What is the proportion of persons returned by constituents of Fnglish extrac- tion ? — it is impossible to tell that ; for those of Eniflish extraction are mixed throughout with those of I'rench extraction. It woidd be as diilicult to tell in this coimtry which are of Scotch extraction, or which are of Norman extraction; but when I'.nglish people have settled iu a district inlinbiled by French Canadians, of course they cannot return any, because they are the minority. It is always the majority that returns. Are there not a certain number of tli*^ meniberM of the Mouse of .Assembly that you consider the representalives of the I'nglldi netllers • — 1 consider that we have all the sauie interest in that country, but we do draw lines; sometimes it is said fills man is a Scotchman, sometimes hf is a N ankey, sometimes he is a Foreigner, r-ometimes he is a Protestant, and sometimes he is fi Cntholir. but these are all -,()g. M nonsensical John NeiUon, 44 May 1818. <)o MlNin'KS i)V KMDKNl'K IM'.I'OKK SKI.MCT I'O.VIMITTKI-: Jvkn .V«i/iM, %• t4 May 1818. ; place do you iit I'orr-- I'ot tlic coiintv of Quebec, are your conitituuiiU |>rhK as possible. There were very few settlers at that time, and I think that they allowed two 1 < [Kcsentatives for a town, provided it contained 8,5 qualified electors ; and if it had not 85 qualified electors, it was nevertheless to have one representativ What is the (pinlification of an elector? — In the first place being a militia-man, in the next place paying taxes to a certain amount ; I believe in the state of New York they have lately made an alteration : they made any contribution in the shape of direct taxes sufficient. Is there not a combined principle in Vermont which has reference both to the extent of land and to the population -—Not to my knowledge; I never saw any thing later in Vermont than the constitution of j 71)3. What provision is made in Upper Canada for increasing the number of repre- sentatives in the Assembly? — In Upper Canada 1 know that they have a provision made by the local Legislature for increasing the representation ; but I cannot speak as to the details. What in your opinion would be the objection to establishing a system in Lower Canada similar to that which has been described, recognizing a combined prin- ciple, rather than one that is to be dependent upon population solely ? — I think it would be very unsafe and very unsatisfactory to the people p.t , large. I do not think that the township people, or any other portion of the people of Lower Canada would like to see a departure from the general principle, that the number of representatives ought to be proportioned to the number of qualified electors. On what ground would it be unsafe? — I think it is unsafe to deviate in a matter of that kind, so greatly from the privileges which the people enjoy in the adjoining states; the people in Canada think they are entitled to privileges nearly corresponding with those which exist on the other side of the line, and I do not think it is sl" for this Government to deviate too much with respect to popular privileges, ■ ^m what exists in the L^nited States of America. If you were to bu . mvinced that the practice which has been described exista in the neighbouring country, should you think that there is any ground of danger in adopting it in Lower Canada? — It is not very likely that I should be convinced on that subject ; there may be something that I am not uwarc of, but I am almost certain that there is nothing that authorizes a departure from the principle laid down in all the American constitutions I have seen , but even if it were so, I do not think it is fair; I thin'? it is essential that justice should exist every where ; I think it is the foundation of all Government and all security. Do you then mean, that numbers should form the sole basis of legislation ? — No ; it should be the number of qualified electors. What qualification would you |)ropo8e r — The qualification is a qualification that has been established by Act of Parliament, it is territorial in the counties, and proprietors of houses in the towns, or paying a certain rent. You say that in Vermont, when there are 85 ([iialificd electors in a town, that lown is entitled to have two representatives ; but does the number of representa- tives increase afterwards in a rapid propoilion, when the number of qualified electors increases ? — I have seen nothing of the constitution of Vermont except the constitution of 1793, which says, that when there arc 8,1 qualified electors in a town, that town may send two representutivcs, and tlmf all towns that have not got that number, may send one ; that is to say, any town (li;it h;\\ inhabitants may jfi^. M 2 send Jok» A/intiM, 34 Msy itfl8< IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 1.1 11.25 mjaa 12.5 1^ 1^ 12.2 ^U4 1-^ ^^ />] Photographic Sciences Corporation ^: ^^ \ ^> V N> r\^ ^-'% 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. MSSO (716) S73-4S03 "% 4- 6^ f> ga MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE • loAn NtiUim, 94 M«y 1838. send one, but tov/ns that had a number exceeding 8,5 might send two ; now . a representation of that kind is a most monstrous representation, for I have seen A Louse of 600 or 700 members all sitting together, constantly doing business. Every pmsh, in fact, sends two representatives, and they do send in some in* stances, I believe, as many as they choose to pay. Does the number of representatives increase in proportion to the number of qualified individuals i — No. Then the number of electors is not in proportion to the population ? — They make out censuses every ten years, and upon those censuses it is that they apportion the representatives, so that every place may be equally represented. Then it appears that a town containing 500 or ,5,000 qualified electors, has the same representation as a town containing 85 qualified electors ? — That is the con- stitution of 1793 ; but the constitution of 1793 establishes this principle, that it shall be as equal as possible amongst the qualified electors, and they regulate it by special Acts from time to time. You are not aware of any change having taken place since that time? — No. Then according to the system of 1793, there is no proportion established be- tween the number of electors and the number of elected ? — Perhaps the best way will be to refer to the clause, and then every gentleman will be able to put the construction upon it that is most correct. Are gentlemen resident in Canada found to be generally averse to be members of the Assembly, or is it an object of competition amongst them ? — There was ^ great deal of competition at the last election. „, ,, Were there many contests ? — Universally, almost. Do you know the system of representation in Upper Canada? — I know there has been an augmentation of the representation there. The principle of the representation there is thnt every county now formed or organized, or which may hereafter be formed or organized, the population of which shall amount to 1,000 souls, shall be represented by one member, and that when it shall amount to 4,000 souls, it shall be represented by two members ; and that every town in which quarter sessions shall be he held, and in which there shall be 1,000 souls, shall be represented by one member; would you think that a fair system ? — We do not claim so much as that ; we would have thought that that would have given us too numerous a representation. Their representation is nearly double ours upon the present system. Do you think that would be a fair basis of representation, not ns to the number. In what way has that money been raised?— It has been taken out of the un- appropriated monies at the disposal of the Legislature. Mow has it been applied? — The Governor appoints commissioners, and the commissioners proceed to apply the money ; the people complain very much on the subject throughout the country ; they say that the commissioners have en- deavoured to make roads for their own advantage, and that they have made roads where they could be of no use, and that the consequence is, that the people derive no benefit from them. What interest could the commissioners have in the matter ? - They have large tracts of land, and every one likes to have a road through his own land. Who have been appointed commissioners ?^-That will appear by the journals of the .Assembly. Ry whom are they appointed? — By the Governor. Are they appointed permanently, or is a set of commissioners appointed to carry a particular road into effect ? — ^They are appointed for a particular county, or for » particular district; I think that iMr. Felton, Mr. Herriot and Mr, Badeaux are for the Three Rivers. Will you describe any one road which has been made with the public money ? — I cannot mention any one road, for the people all say that there is none existing, the money is spent, and the road has grown up ; there was a road called Craig's Road, upon which a great deal of money was spent ; there was a road called Labaye Road, upon which a great deal of money was spent ; and there was a road fron> Sorrell to the townships, upon which a great deal of money was spent. Does the makinij; a road in Canada mean more than cutting an open way through the wood, and removing the timber and obstructions ?— -Yes, it is necessary to do more than tliat ; the first opening, however, is merely that. The first is sufficient for a sledge to pass in winter ; the next is sufficient for a horse to pass in summer ; the next is sufficient for a cart to pass in summer ; and the next is sufficient for the common conveyance to market of a market cart, and then they think they have got a great way in improving the roads. To what circumstances do you attribute that the roads you describe as having been constructed grew up again ? — The roads were made out of all reason ; it was attempted to make roads through an immense wilderness, where there was nobody settled ; through the crown and clergy reserves, whore there was nobody to look ."jt'Q. .M ! after John tffikon, Esq. 04 May iBsS. 94. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Join Neibon, Ay. H Ma; 1838. after it AtUmpting such a road as that vtm a waste of money. No road can be kept in repair unless there are inhabitants along the road, and there is travelling by the road. Mas not one of the great objects of the Government of the United States been to extend gpreat lines of road ; and has not it been found that the extension o£ those lines of road uniformly brought population upon the line ? — I cannot say as to that ; they are doing a great deal as U> roads in that country ; they are making military roads, and other roads ; and I have no doubt that where good roads are made, it is easier to settle along those roads than when they are miserable roads, such as are made in Canada. Roads having been made, such as you have described them, to what do you ascribe that they have not had the eiiect of producing settlements upon the line ? — In the first place, you cannot find who are the proprietors of the lands, for they have been granted ao or 30 years ago to persons, some of whom are living in England, or in Scotland ; and you cannot sit down alongside a crown reserve, or a clergy reserve, because you have nobody to assist you ; the wild beasts will come in from the crown reserve, or the clergy reserve, and eat up all your crop. It is as much as a man can do in those countries, in the first, second and third year, to derive subsistence from his labour, without doing the labour of his next neighbours; and then it is to be considered that the march of population, as the Americans say, is to the west, where the climate is milder ; Lower Canada is the ' hardest climate of all the North American provinces. The people like, if they can, to take advantage of a long river, like the River St. Lawrence, to go into a milder climate. Has not the increase of population been very rapid in Lower Canada, in the townships along the American borders ? — I think it was about 1 798 that they began to settle; and I believe that now, in that quarter, there may be about 24,000 souls. Of what origin? — They are people that come in from the United States, native Americans. The first grants were made in 171)6; and the people principally came in from the United States in the beginning of 1 798, and on till 1812, when the war began ; and since the war, I believe, the settlements have been going on increasing. What is the inducement to settle on the borders of the United States, in preference to settling on the part of the Canadas near the townships ? — ^The object of the Americans was to get good land, and cheap ; and the nearer their own country, the easier it was to get to those lands. Did they get them cheaper in Canada than in the United States?— Of course they did. To what do you attribute that ? — I attribute it to a great many causes ; one is, that the Americans are better managers than we are. In what respect are they better managers ? — They generally manage their con- cerns extremely well for their own profit and for their own advancement ; they have excellent regulations amongst themselves for the common advantage in settling lands, and making them valuable when they are settled ; we are not so well regulated in that respect. Uo you attribute it to a better system of government? — I think their system of local government is much better than ours. There is another circumstance; 9ome of the people that come in from the United States to Canada are runaways, persons that have got into debt in the United States; they come into Canada, and little in Canada, because they are out of the reach of their creditors ; those are not the best people for advancing a settlement To what do you attribute the difference in the value of land between the United States and Canada?— I should sav that their local affairs are better managed than ours. I know that in Derby, when I was there in 1 8 1 1 , the lands on the other side of the line were worth eight dollars an acre, and on our side they were not worth two. Have the inhabitants of the townships ever petitioned the Legislative Assembly for any purposes ? — Yes. For what ? — They have petitioned for register offices ; they have petitioned for courts of justices ; they have had a court ol justice ; they have been set off into a new district. Was that as much as they petitioned for? — I do not know that it wa.s; they probably ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. >W .prob«bly wanted courts upon a more extensive plan. This is a limited jurisdic* tion ; but the townships were set off by the Act of 1817 'Qto a new district, and an English judge appointed for them alone, and a gaol built, and tom^ things of that kmd done; however, there has been a great deal of difficulty upon that subject. They had an Act for collecting small debts, and mskiqg justices of the Keace courts, and things of that kind ; but I rather suspect they would like to ave courts upon a more extensive plan ; they are diasit^fied v^ith the courts that they have. Have their petitions been generally attended to? — ^They have, but latterly I should say that the whole of the legislative business of Lower Canada has been very much neglected ; the differences between the executive Government and the Assembly, and the objections on the part of the Leeislative Council to pror ceed upon bills sent up by the Assembly, nave prevented the legislative bosiness from going on with that activity with which it ought to go on. With respect to roads, you mentioned that 100,000/. bad been voted for makii^f them in different parts of the country since the war; dp you mean since 1815 ? — In 1815 they began to make tmpropriations ; in 1815 th^re was a grant of 15,000/., and there was another large grant of 55,000/. in 1817, and they have gone on gradually ever since. Has any one good road been made with that money ?— Very little, I believe< k Were those sums granted upon the application of the executive Govemmeut. or did they arise from a motion in the House ? — Some of them were upon petitions, some, 1 believe, from motions in the House ; but there has been no grant of public money made without an approbaticn on the part of the executive Govern- ment. Were they appropriated to make parti jular roads ? — They were appropriated to particular counties. Has there been any repoi*! of the nmnar'' in which the money was expended ?— There have been reports made, but there i& at this moment great disorder in the whole concern ; there is to the amount of 150,000/. of monies advanced that have not been settled. Have the commissioners salaries? — No. . Are they gentlemen of the counties ?— Some of them reside in the counties, some in the towns, some of them reside in Quebec, and some in Montreal ; but the thing has been badly managed altogether, and there is no regularity. Have not the House of Assembly sometimes refused to pass bills that have, been sent to them? — I do not know any road bill that they have refused. Do you not recollect instances of road bills that have been introduced into the House of Assembly which the House of Assembly have not passed ? — Yes, I recollect one about the crown and clergy reserves. Do you recollect why it was not passed ? — I cannot say, it was referred to a committee, and there was a report upon it. Do you think there exists in the House of Assembly any disposition to dis« courage settlements in the townships? — I do not believe it. If it has been said that the House of Assembly refuses to pass road bills in order to discourage settlements in the townships, you do not believe that to be a correct representation ? — I do not. Do you think there exists on the part of the inhabitants of Lower Canada of French extraction, an indisposition to see the English settlers occupy land in the rear of the seigneuries, and cultivate it? — I do not think there is; it is very natural, however, that the farmers should wish to see lands at the back of them to settle their children upon, but I do not think there is any indisposition to the settlement of the country by the people of Europe ; the general notion among the people is that America is large enough for every body. Is there a strong idea in Lower Canada that Lower Canada was intended to be reserved by the Act of 1791 for the French Canadians ? — I have heard that idea expressed. Do you think it prevails generally ? — I do not think it does generally ; but I am convinced that many of the French Canadians think it hard that they should not get land with the same facility as otlier people. What obstruction is put in the wav to granting lands to the descendants of the French Canadians? — In the first place, they like to have every thing in the old way ; they have applied for land enjief, and they have been refused. Jtkn IfMia, H May 18M. JIaJU KeiUtH, 94 May 1838. I 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Do they object to take land upon the tenure of free and common soccage ?— They do not object to take lands upon the tenure of free and common soccage ; but they cannot get them ; the lands there are granted out to a great extent back, 20 or 30 or 40 miles, if they find out who is the owner of a piece of land-near them, they apply to him directly, and he asks them an extravagant price for it, a price that they cannot pay. To whom are those lands granted ?— From the year 1 796 down to a late period, there was a practice of granting an immense tract of land, called a town* ship, to a leader, that leader gave a number of names which were put in the patent, and he managed beforehand to get deeds of conveyance from them, so that he became possessor of the whole ; but in some instances those names be- came actually the patentees, they never thought of settling the land ; he used to give them 5«. to get their names, and in many instances they stood as the pro- prietors. At the present day they are not to be found, or they are persons that have come to England or Scotland, and you cannot tell who is the pro- prietor of the land ; but if you do find the proprietor of the land at the back of the seigncurieS, where the people want to settle, he asks an extravagant price for it. Would you propose to interfere with the rights of those proprietors ? — All those lands were granted by the King on condition that they should settle on them, they have not performed that condition. It was proposed in the House of Assembly to pass a bill that should authorize the King's Government to proceed >to escheat such lands as might be in the immediate vicinity of actual settle- ments; but it fell through, and there was an Act passed here in the year 1825, which is of the same character, but it gives the Government the power to escheat all over the country, perhaps 100 miles from any settlement. Now it is a hard thing to trJk of escheating a man's land when he is out of the reach of all settlement, after he has been put to the expenses of fees for the patent, and other expenses. Undoubtedly when the settlement comes alongside of him, it is proper that he should perform his duty of settlement, and if he did not, that he should be deprived of it ; but it is thought that that power might be used to take away land from people on speculation, and that has excited alarm. How would you propose to deal with those lands r — To pass an Act of the Legislatuie, that whenever there are settlements in a township, the settlers upon the adjoining lands should have the lands escheated, unless they performed the duties of settlement. Then you would propose to enforce the Act of 1825? — Under that limitation, that it should not extend to any other lands but those within the limits of a set- tlement. You said just now that the price asked for that land is exorbitant, and before that you said that lands were cheaper in Canada than in the United States r- - So they are, much cheaper tlian in the United States ; there has been so much land thrown in the market in Canada, that unless it is in tlie immediate vicinity of a settlement it will not sell for more than 3{ ]u- (ions and adopted rules which aflfect the constitutional rights and privilc|yea of this House, without having heard the reasons to the contrary which mij^ht have been given on the part of this Houae: That the said Uesolutious have been adopted by the Honourable the Legislative Council without any difficulty or dis- pute having arisen between the said Legislative Council and this House respecting the matters therein set forth, and that the said Resolutions, adopted gratuitously and unnecessarily by the said Legislative Council, are of a nature to retard the re-establishment of thet harmony and that good understanding between the two Houses which it is so desirable should prevail for the good government, peace, and welfare of the people of this Province : That all ReMlutions by whiob one branch of the Legislaturr lay down for themselves beforehand, and in a general manner, a rule not to proceed on Bills of a certain form or de- lenption, which may be offered to them by another branch, is contrary to parliamentary laws and usages, to the Constitutional Act, and to the Ubertiet, rights and privileges of the other branches of the Legislature, and even of that branch which adopts such resolutions : That by constant parliamentary usage, recognized by several Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and uie Legrislature of this Province, the Commons of the United Kingdom and the Assembly of this Province have frequently voted by address advances of money, when the exigencies of the state and country have rendered it necessary ; and that this practice, far from being disadvantageous, has been of very great assist- ance to Government, as the converse would produce incalculable inconvenience and fatal consequences to His Majesty's Government : That it is the duty of this House towards Hi» Majesty and his People of this Province to take into con- sideration all Salaries, Pensions and Augmentations tbereof,^ and to provide for them with liberality and justice, although the quantum be not mentioned in the recommendation made to this House by the King's Representative : That the Honourable the Legislative Council cannot, directly or indirectly, abridge or pro- long the time fixed by Bills of this House for the collection of any sum of Money, nor change the mode established by Bill of this House either for the collection or application of the public Money." ,< . John t/rilto», «4 M«y i8s8. . . Martis, 3* die Jtniii, 1828. , r, ^ Mr. Simon M'Gillivrai/, called in ; and Examined. ARE you acquainted with il,?. British Provinces in North America ? — I am, having frequently visited them. In what capacity have you visited ti\<;m ? — As a merchant, and connected with the North West (.'ompany, whose trade e.\tended very far into the interior, and in the necessary attention to which, I had occasion to travel through a considerable part of the country repeatedly. Is your acquaintance principally with Upper Canada, or with Lower Canada?— About equal in both ; my connections arc chiefly in Lower Canada ; but I have travelled so frequently through Upper Canada, that my personal acquaintance is ainut equal in both. For what length of time have you been acquainted with those provinces ?- - I have been acquainted with Lower Canada since 1802; with Upper Canada since the war; since iSl.'ii. Are you a (troprietor of lands in either province? — I am not, individually. I believe I may be proprietor of some wild land that I inherit from some relations there ; but 1 never saw it. Is there any thing in the state of the laws in Lower Canada which, in your opiniou, di8Courap°es British subjects from becoming possessed of land in that province ? — Undoubtedly there is much ; the state of the tenures, the fines upon mutations of property, and the general dislike which 1 have found to prevail to living under the French institutions and laws. Do you find that dislike confined to the English population, or is it common to the French ?— Certainly not ; the French are anxious to preserve their peculiar institutions with as little alteration as possible. I* not the French population much more numerous than the English ?— :It is. .■i**;). N 2 The Mr. Simon M'Oittirroj/. 3 June i8a8. too MINUTES OF KVIDRNCI? BRFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. The French and English population are very little mixed ; and even where they KmonW Giiiivra^. reside together, as in owns, thi-y do not associate, but form, as it were, distinct ^~~" ' castes. In the seigneurial part of (Canada, along the banks of the St. Lawrence, jJuneiStS. jjjg French population is pretty much unmixed. There is a mixture of English population in some of the towns ; and in what are called the eastern townsliips, (a considerable extent of territory lying between the seigneuries and the bounda- ries of the province,) the population is partly of English and partly of American descen*; but generally called English, as distinguished from FVfinch. Is the objection to the state of the law confined to the inhabitants of the town- ships?— It IS confined to the commercial population of the towns, and the English inhabitants of the townships. Vou say that the fines upon the mutations of property are one of the reasons why English people are indisposed to possess it ; can you state the iimuuntof those fines?— The amount of the lines is, I believe, one twelfth upon each transfer ; and its injurious effect upon property which is improved is manifest at once ; because if a man purchases a piece of ground, a mere garden, for 200/. or 300/. and builds a house worth 10,000/. upon it, he pays the fine upon tiie additional value. • Does the one twelfth go to the seigneur? — It docs. ■ '">>> Is it paid equally, whether the property is transferred upon the death of the possessor or transferred by sale ? — It depends upon whom it is inherited by. If it IS inherited by the children I believe it does not pay the tine of mutation; I believe it is only in case of sale that the full fine is charged. Is the commerce of Canada carried on chiefly by English people? — By the people of English and Scotch, and what the Canadians consider /oreig/i, descent, speaking of English as including all others who are not Canadians. To what circumstance do you attribute the Canadians not enj^aging in com- merce ? — It can only be matter of opinion. There are some ot them that are -engaged in the inferior branches of commerce ; they keep shops, and are engaged in small country half taverns half shops, but generally they are not a commercial people, and of those who have engaged in commerce few have ever obtained any distinction, or amassed much property by means thereof. Did they not while the fur trade took the direction of the St. I^wrence, engage very actively in that branch? — As clerks, servants, and voya^eurj or canoemen, they did; I can speak to that from my own knowledge. 'I'lie fur trade to the northern country was, from the year 1784 or 178,5 to the year 1831, carried on wholly by an association called the North West (company, and although the partners of that company were always chosen by a regular system of promotion of • ' • meritorious clerks, I believe only four Canadians ever came to be partners of the company, and one of them through a circumstance of family connection. I have no objection to state the fact, but it is not of any moment, and it might ofiiend the party ; but the inferior servants were almost wholly Canadians. Do the persons whom you describe as engaged in commercial pursuits in Lower Canada invest their money in Lower Canada, or are they in the habit of remitting it home ? — They are very much in the habit of remitting it home ; and I am per- suaded that that practice has tended to prevent the advancement of the colony and its improvement, in the same manner that the adjoining states are improved. Are you sufliciently acquainted with Upper Canada to be able to say whether the same habit prevails there ; that is to say, whether persons making money in commercial pursuits remit their money home or invest it there ? — I know scarcely any instance of any persons having acquired money in the Upper Province hav- ing left it. They become generally large holders of land. There are several persons that I know now who have been long talking of leaving the province, but they still remain there. You mean persons that are engaged in commercial pursuits r — They have been persons engaged in commercial pursuits, proprietors of mills, and dealers in produce generally; because the commerce of the country is limited to the pro- duce of the land, and to importation of manufactures and colonial produce for consumption. Are tne Committee to infer from that, that the tenure of land, and the manage- ment of property in Upper Canada, is upon a footing more acceptable to persons uf British origin than it is in Lower Canada? — Undoubtedly; and I may state further in favour oftliat opinion, that ulthou|;li at a greater distance from a market, and ;e ON THE CIVIL UOVERNMtNT OF CANADA. 101 ere tliej distinct iwrcnce, Enffliflh wnsiiips, bounaa- merican 3 June 1818. atid a much greater distance from a navigation, and under various disadvantageous ^- . ,. circumstances, arising from 'Ji remoteness, land in Upper Canada is of con- *''^*''^*"''*** siderahly more value than lard of et^ual fertility in Lower Canada. Does the superiority of ..le climate in Upper Canada tend materially to produce that additional value r — In part, certainly. To what do you attribute the other part ? — To the superior eligibilitpr of land held under the institutions of Upper Canada over land under the institutions of ■Lower Canada ; in corrolraration of which I would add, that where there is not much difl'erence of climate, where the land is merely divided by an imaginary line separating the province of Lower Canada from the states of New York and Vermont, the land,' in the townships on the Canadian side of the line is in many places scarcely saleable at 1 s, an acre, and on the other side of the line it is sold at io«. ia«. and i.5«. When you say that the inhabitants of the English townships, and the English inhabitants of the towns in Lower Canada, are desirous of English law in prefer- ence to the French law, do you mean that they wish for the English law of primo- geniture, and the English forms of conveyancing, or that they wish for the English law as it is established in the United States ? — I should think that those who are not lawyers do not exactly enter into the ditiicultios relating to the English form of conveyancing, and the other difliculties of the English law. Are the Committee to understand that they wish for the English law as it is practised in the states of Vermont and New \ork? — Yes; it is only in that way tli:tt they have a knowledge of it. I should say, that, in speaking of English law, (hey may be considered to mean, and merely to wish for an exemption from the disadvantages they feel under the French law. IJoes the system of French law which prevails in Montreal and Quebec mate- rially aii'ect or impede the commercial pursuits in Lower Canada? — It creates very considerable difliculties in many respects. The want of a bankrupt law, and of ■any provision for arranging insolvent estates, causes considerable difficulty in recovering commercial debts ; and the system whereby every contract entered into before a notary is held to he a real security upon the whole of a man's estate, makes it difficult to know when a debt is secured or not; because an instrument in the possession of an obscure notary, or among the papers of a deceased notary, may be produced, of any date, almost forgotten by the grantor of it, and unless foi'inally cancelled, it amounts to a mortgage over the whole of his property. Does that prevent the practice of lending money upon mortgage i — It does undoubtedly ; because it is impossible to know when you can safely lend money ; and it also throws so much doubt upon titles, that it has made the system almost universal there of transferring property under a sheriff's sale, which, uter a certain itimo, sets aside all alleged hypothecary security ; and, in fact, sheriffs sales are so general, that if you take up a Canada newspaper, particularly the Quebec Gazette, you generally sec half of it occupied with sheriffs sales. Are persons engaged in commerce in Lower Canada at all impeded in their cunitnercial pursuits, by the laws which exist with reference to personal property ? — I am not aware that they are impeded in buying and selling : as to the disputes between merchants, the case certainly is attended with difficulty, because the estab- lishment of a system of trial by jury would be preferred by Englishmen to the manner in which questions are decided there. With reference to the laws themselves, is there any thing in them that is pro- ductive of inconvenience, or of which merchants have reason to complain? — I believe there are a number of regulations still enforced as part of the " Coutume ik Paris," that are inapplicable to modern times, but I am unable to speak to them. Are you acquainted with the district of Lower Canada known by the name of the Townships? — I have never been there; in fact they are inaccessible to tra- vellers, and can only be visited in the summer on foot or on horseback, and in the winter when the snow roads are good, there being no roads between them and the bank of the river. Are you at all acquainted with the transport of goods between the Lower Province and the Upper? — Yes. Are the merchants who import goods for Upper Canada exposed to any diffi- culty, or to any unfair taxation in the transport of goods through the Lower Fro- viuie into the Upper? — I believe the merchants are not exposed to any difficulty, ■,in). N 3 because 103 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE jJMMlld. f ' I'! r becwiR where they have to pay * duty upon importetMm h aignifiM aothnf 4o iIm payer where be pays it Tlie province of Upper Canada hai complained « being deprived of a part of the duties, and diiputes have ariien between the province! a« to the distribution of the duties so collected. Where are the duties now taken ? — At Quebec, I believe, entirely ; I am not mire whether part of them are not now taken at Montreal : the old system waa that they were taken wholly at Quebec, but that was complained ot at Montreal. Is the consumption of forci^^ floods by the two provinces similar, or does the difference of the origin and manners of the inhabitants create much difference ia tiieir consumption ? — I should think that the articles that pay most duty are liqnon, wine and spirits. I should think there is more wine consumed in Lower Canada tiian in Upper Canada; probably they distill grain and consume less of tke imported spirits than the people who are nearer the market; such at least was the opinion of the commissioners who met to determine the distribution of the duties between the provinces. Then in the arrangement of the duties, do the taxea bear rather more heavily upon the Lower Canadians than upon the Upper, according to the relative pro- portions of the population ? — So far as liquors go, I should say so ; in regard to other commodities. I should think that from the habits and the superior comforts of living of several of the . eople of Upper Canada, the reverse ic the case; so that very probably che disti.bution of tne commissioners was a fair one, when they took pspu'iation as the criterion for the distribution of the duties on importation. In the imposition of taxes, which is altogether in the hands of the Lower Canadians, is there any ground of suspicion that an unfair use has been made of their power in that respect ; that they have imposed taxes which they thought were more likely to fall u|)on the Upper Canadians than upon themselves?—! am not rware that there is any such impression : I have no such impression. ' Are there any taxes upon the transport of goods from the interior r — There are no dotiea of any importance ; some goods are received from the United States, upon which there is a heavy duty charged. Do you mean goods transported from the territories of the United States at the south of the province ? — Yes, the duties appear to have been intended to act as a prohibition, and they have so far operated as to be a prohibition of export by that channel, which was one great cause of promoting the canal which has been con- structed in the state of New York. Do any of those export duties bear upon the produce of Upper Canada ? — I am not aware that they do upon the produce of Upper Canada. Are you at all acquainted with the mode in which lands urn granted by the Government in Lower Canada:— The grants made since the conquest have been made in townships, laid out in a similar manner to what they are in Upper Canada ; the townships are generally about 10 miles square, which are divided into lots of 200 acres, and a certain number of those lots reserved for the Crown and the clergy, generally one-seventh for the Crown and one-seventh for the clergy. Do you know whether the size of the grants, or the mode in which they have been distributed, has had c tendency to retard their cultivation ? — Undoubtedly; making large grants in the townships nearest to the seigneuries must have tended to prevent cultivation ; but the seigneuries themselves are not yet entirely cultivated to the boundary of the townships ; it is only the front piece of land immediately bordering upon the river ; that is very thickly peopled, so thick, that from a dis- tance the houses along the road look like a continued village ; but if you go back 'three or four miles, the country is very partially cleared. Then beyond that again, and towards the American boundary, is there not a district called the Townships ? — Yes, the seigneuries extend, I believe, generally abont 12 or 15 miles from the riverside, and the whole country from thence to the boundary line of the province is laid out in townships, of which, I believe, surveys were made, and I know the provincial government is by no means satisfied of their accuracy. Can you state generally any measures or any course that could be pursued by which it would be likely that the land you now describe as lying waste between the seigneuries and the American border could be brought into cultivation ?-- I knaw no plan that would be likely to he so effectual as that of taxing the land fur tbfi purpose of making roads, or to make roads, and to make the propriotoi" pay for i ':'' S OH THE CIVIL OOVBRIiMENT OH CANADA. «»3 far them ; and if abwntee* or other* did not pay, to sell paft of the land to pay the assensmentfl. What nre the difficultic that now impede the making of roada ? — The difficulty is thti state of the property; in the firit place, a great deal of property granted being held by absentees ; then the crown and clergy reserves are an impediment to the malting of roads, or any communication through the country ; there are no means of defraying the expense. People whom I have seen from the towmhips complain much of the difficulty of getting roads made, because thene is nobooy that will co-operate with them in paying for opening roads through the adioining lands which do not belong to them. Are you at all acquainted w4h the system which is now sursued ibr laying* out roads? — 1 believe the grand voyer's superintendence ia chieAy confined to road* in the seigneuries. Is the land that is set apart for the clergy reserves so located a« to produce great inconvenience to the settlers r — It is, undoniytedlj ; bccanae laying oat ervrf seventh lot for that purpose, and another seventh for crown reserves, and sup- posing the intermediate lots adjoining the river or the road to be occupied and partially cleared, yet the man that has to get to the lot beyond the reserves cannot reach his farm or carry his produce out of it without going to the expense of opening a road through the reserve, and that he cannot afford ; so that the reserves generally are an impediment to settlement. Is that in itself a sufficient reason to account for the land between the town* ships and the seigneuries remaining unsettled? — It is only one cause, and it contributes with otner causes ; because, whether the land be a clergy reserve or a crown reserve, or land granted to a non-resident proprietor, the effect is the same. Do you think the absentees have been deterred from cultivating their land' by the clergy and crown reserves ? — It has increased their difficulty. Are you acquainted with the measures that have been had recourse to in order to compel absentees to fulfil the conditions of their grants by cultivating the land?— In Upper Canada I know that some legislative in«>ftflures have been adopted for the purpose of making improvements, and of ta!>:ing the lands of absentees to contribute to those improvements. Are not the clergy reserves claimed by different religious sects in that country ? — I think that dispute has arisen in this way. About four years ago Govern- ment made a contract with an association of merchants, of which I was one, for disposing of a certain portion of the clergy reserves, and the whole of the crown reserves of Upper Canada to that company, for the purpose of sale and settlement, and it was after that negociation had made some progress, that I heard, for the first time, of a corporation, called the Clergy Corpora- tion, which had acquired a title to all those clergy reserves. That Clergy Corporation made strong remonstrance.s against the transaction which Govern- ment had entered into with the Canada Company, and represented the value of those clergy reserves to be considerably more than they were considered by other persons to be, and subsequently other denominations, the Presbyterians particularly, and various parties in the House of Assembly in Upper Canada, have claimed' a share in the distribution of the produce of the clergy reserves. The established church claim the whole right as the Protestant Church, for whose support the reserves were originally designed. Others claim a participation in i^ as being generally appropriated for the support of a Protestant Church, without any excltN sive reference to the Church of Lngland. Are the Committee to understand that this state of things arising from those different claims having been so long made, and it being uncertain to whom those clergy reserves really belong, has produced a great deal of discord and irritation in the province? — I should say not a great deal ; it has very recentlj^- produced some discussion and contention in the newspapers; but it is a question of very recent occurrence ; it is a question that hitd' scarcely begnn to excite public irritation when I was last in the province, in i ^25. Are you not aware that the Legislature of Upper Canada has repeatedly come' to votes upon that question ^ — ^Yes, recently they navei Have you any general notion of the nundiers of die different sects in the colony ^ — 1 have not, and in fkct it is rather a difficult point to ascertain ; I have endea* voured to collect some specific information, and' I' have not been able to do it. .569. N 4 Would Mr. iUmtH M'OiUmi m jik 3 Jun* il 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Would you state generally that the Church of England were in a great minority Simit M'Oiltiviaif or not, in the province of Upper Canada? — If numbered against all others, ' " ' I should say decidedly they were. 3 June 1898. \^2s there not a resolution to that effect passed in the House of Assembly, and carried by a majority of at least 24, the minority amounting to only three ? — So I have understood. You are a member of the Canada Company i — I am. What was the nature of the contract made between the Government and the company with respect to the lands that that company was to hold ? — The contract was made for the purpose of purchasing from the Crown the whole of the crown reserves which had not then been granted (they have since been found to amount to about 1 ,400,000 acres), and one half of the clergy reserves which had not bieeu granted or leased previously to the ist of March 1824 they amounted to about 840,000 acres, therefore it was a purchase by the company from the Crown of about two and a quarter of millions of acres at such price as should be awarded by commissioners, and to be payable to Government in instalments in 15 years. Were the commissioners to award the price equally for the crown reserves and for the clergy reserves ? — They were to award generally the price between the Government and the purchasers of all the land. Has any price been fixed upon the crown reserves r — Yes ; a price was fixed by the report of the commissioners on botli the crown and clergy reserves, but the best evidence upon that subject would be the Report itself, which is in the Colonial Office. What payments have beeii made by the Canada Company to the Government ? — I believe, including a payment which may be considered as made because it has been ordered to be made, and it will be made within the present month, the amount is 35,000/. Is there any part of it an annual rent or fine r — No ; it is the price for the purchase of so much land paid in annual instalments; the >am paid consists of the two first years instal.nents. Are the instalments fixed in annual payments of 15,000/. ? — They are fixed at the annual instalment of 20,000/. the first year, and 15,000/. the next year, and going on so as to make up the whole sum in 1 6 years. What is the obligation of the company as to taking up the land" ; — They are under the obligation of taking up a certain portion of the land annually, or paying a fine to Government in lieu of settlement duties ; they are compelled either to occupy a certain portion of the land every year, or to pay a penalty in casb of failing to do so. How many years have they existed ? — They got the charter in September 1 826 ; I should state upon that subject, that the proceedings of the Company have been very much delayed by the dispute which arose from the representations of the Clergy Corporation. A delay ensued in granting the charter and in enabling the company to proceced with their operations, and in the mean time what was called the commercial or financial panic arose in England, which depreciated the value of all speculations of this description, and has been particularly injurious to the interests of the stockholders of the Canada Company. What portion of the land is the company actually in possession of? — We have only taken actual possession of that which we have placed occupants upon. U|>on what terms have you placed occupants upon it? — On the terms of sale to those persons. We. have contracted with a man that he is to pay so much, and we put him into possession of the land, giving him a title after he has paid a certain proportion of the price agreed on. Is the land all in one mass?— No; the crown reserves are in detached lots. In the improvement and cultivation of the land which you have obtained front the Crown, are you much impeded by the circumstnnces and position of the remaining clergy reserves ? — We have not been, and I should think that we are under present airangcments not likely to be, because I understand that under the authority of uii Act passed two years ago. Government has appointed a geutlc- raan to sell the clergy reserves ; and if they are to be for sale in the market, they will be no inipedinu-nl to the cultivation of the province. We have complained (if tlie measure of selling and of giving away those lands in opposition to us, as si^lerji of those wi; Imve purchased, but that is a commercial matter, ufl'ecting the intero'sts of us, (tie company ; and a» to the general interest of the province!. L ■. I >liould :r- ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. loj- I should suppose that the measure the (jovernment has adopted of putting the clerffy reserves up to sale, will prevent their being so much an impediment to cul- tivation as they have hitherto been. I should also state, that in many former instances when the clergy reserves have acquired sufficient value from tlie settle- ments in the neighbourhood to bear the payment of any rent, they have been leased, and have so ceased to be an impediment to improvement. What is the Clergy Corporation?— It is a corporation that was framed in Canada, and confirmed by royal authority in England. Of whom does it consist? — Of the Bishop of Quebec, and of certain persons named in Canada, chiefly, I believe, clergymen. Is the administration of the clergy lands vested in this corporation ?— I believe it is. Is Upper Canada supplied with foreign produce through the United States, or from Lower Canada? — Chiefly from Lower Canada ; until within a few years both Canadas were supplied with the produce of China and of India very muck through the United States; but in consequence of a measure adopted by the East India Company, of sending teas direct to Quebec, which are not subject to the heavy English duties, I believe the balance of imports is rather the other way now, and that some find the'- way from Canada to the United States. Is there much smuggling from the United States into Upper Canada, or vice versa ? — I should think not ; the duties in Upper Canada are not suthciently large to make smuggling an object of any importance ; but there is a considerable war of custom-houses on both sides of the lake, chiefly arising from the restrictions imposed on American vessels in their own ports ; if a vessel touches on the English side of the lake she is considered to have come from a foreign port, and is subject to a heavy tonnage duty. Is much of the produce of Upper Canada transported through the American canals r — No. How is ii: that it is an object to the inhabitants of the southern shore of the lakes, who are American citizens, to transport their produce through their canals, if it is not so to the inhabitants of L'pper Canada ? — Because their produce is subject to considerable duty on being sent through Lower Canada. It the navi- gation of the St. Lawrence had been thrown open for the produce of the south side of .the lakes, I think that those canals never would have been constructed ; and that it was to avoid our transit duties and import duties in Lower Canada that the people of New York were induced to attempt works of such magnitude and difliculty. If those duties were taken off now would it restore the trade' — I should think not, because the canals are constructed, and the great advantage of the harbour of New York, the capital accumulated in that city, the enterprise of its merchants, the propinquity of its harbour to the West Indies, as well as its being open all the year round, whereas the St. Lawrence is closed half the year ; I think these circumstances would counterbalance the advantages on the other side, yet still of bulky articles a considerable quantity would come to the St. Lawrence. What is the object of the transit duties ; were they imposed to prevent American commodities being brought to England or the British colonies r — I should think that was the object. Tiie Canadians claimed particular advan- tages in exporting their produce to England and to our colonies, cither free of duty or at a reduced rate of duties; and in order to prevent the American produce sharing in those advantages, those duties were levied, partly with a view to secure to the actual settlers of Canada the advantages given to them in the exportation of their produce to England and to our colonies. Would not this system of transit duties entirely prevent the produce of the American states finding its way along the Stj Lawrence when the Rideau Canal is constructed ? — The Uideau Canal, I should think, will never bring down much produce ; it is an important improvement in the country witli a view to its military defence, but whilst the St. Lawrence is open, and whilst considerable crafl can come down the St. Lawrence without impediment, 1 should think that many of them will never come down through the Rideau Canal. Boats may go up the Rideau Canal, but I should think the waters of the St. Lawrence will always be the channel in coming down. • Will much of the produce of the American territory on the south of Lake Erie pass through the Wellatul Canal ?— I think a great deal will. ,-,(io. () With Mr. Simon M'GUlivra^. 3 June 1838. io6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3. Tune 1898. i Mr. With a view to find an ultimate outlet by the American canals? — Either by the M'Gillivray. St. Lawrence or the American canals. According to a calculation I have seen, I believe it might be of advantage for the sloops and schooners which navigate Lake Erie to pass through the V/elland Canal, if they itio permitted to pass without any transit duty, to carry their cargoes either to the mouth of the Oswego River, or to go down the St. Lawrence to Prescott. Will not the principle on which the transit duties are established apply at all to the Welland Canal ? — I am not certain about that ; I hope if they do apply that (ID alteration may be made Have those transit duties, on the whole, been injurious to the colony ? — They were meant to be beneficial to the colony, by encouraging the increase of its culti- vation, but I believe they have actually been injurious to it. Then they have not had the effect of increasing the cult) vat? -n of the colony ?-- Whether they may have increased it in any material degret I oo not know ; I be- lieve the injury has been greater than the benefit. Would the union of the two provinces materially facilitate the commerce of either province? — Of Upper Canada it would. In what way ? — By giving them a control of the direct port of entry and commu- nication with the rest of the world, which at present they are obliged to have through the jurisdiction of Lower Canada Do the I^wer Canadians exercise that jurisdiction in ;.uch a way as to impede the commerce of the Upper Canadians ? — The power of the Legislature of Lower Canada has been exercised so as to be an impediment to commerce generally, par- ticularly to that of Upper Canada, because it was that which was most exposed to it. In what manner have they imposed that impediment ? — I can speak of general results much more than of details, and I am not prepared to enter into explana- tions upon that subject. What sort of goods have you been in the habit of importing into Upper Canada ? — Into Upper Canada I never imported much ; the goods I was chiefly in the habit of importing from England to Lower Canada were British manufactures of various kinds fit for the Indian trade. I never was engaged in any local trade in the colonies ; I was engaged in the Indian and fur trade as a director of the North West Company. Our imports from England consi^ited of manufactures, arms, ammuni- tion and clothing for the supply of the Indian trade, and we purchased in America provisions and tobacco and rum, and those articles were sent up through Upper Canada in their way to the Indian territories in the north-west ; tlibt was the trade I was chiefly engaged in, and that trade having met with no impediment from any legislative restrictions, I am therefore the less prepared to answer the last question. Did they pass from province to province duty free?- -Yes; having paid the duties upon the importation into either province, they passed free to the other, and there was no drawback. Do you know any instance in which different regulations of trade, afl'ecting the same commodities, have prevailed within the two provinces at the same time ? — I am not sufficiently aware of the details of the local trade to answer that question. Are not the complaints of the Upper Canadians of this sort, that the duties levied in the Lower Province are applied to the local purposes of the Lower Province, and not applied to the purposes of the Upper Province? — As far as I understand it, that is the chief complaint ; and it is more n complaint of the 'listribution of the duties than any inequality or unfairness in levying them. Can you state generally what is the nature of the arranf "ment by which is determined the share of the duties to which Upper Canada is entitled r — I believe I can, beca\ise I had a good deal of conversation with a gentleman that was sent to decide the last arbitration. Mr. Chipman, of New lirunswick, showed me his papers He had been sent to settle the difference of opinion between Mr. Richard- son and Mr. Baby, the commissioners appointed for Ix)wcr and Upper Canada, who, differing in opinion, Mr. Chipman was appointed by Government to decide between them. I happened to be at Montreal at the time they met, and after the decision had been given, Mr. Chipman showed nic his papers, and the principle upon which he decided was, that the population of tlie two provinces was the fair standard of distribution. Do ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. )Ul •m by the e seen, avigate without River, It all to >ly that commu- through I I Do Do you believe that that principle has given satisbction to the two provinces? — Mr. I believe they both complained of it ; and yet 1 could not imagine a more equitable ^''w M^GUImmf. mode of deciding the question. "'-' Does not Lower Canada consider that it leads to a serious diminution of her * ^""" *•*'• power? — Lower Canada claimed originally the whole of the duties, and con- sidered the claim of Upper Canada to any participation whatever to be unjust. Is the principle of the relative number of the population agreed upon now for ever, as that by which the distribution is to be regulation ? — No ; it was only given as an award in one instance ; and I believe it is for four years. Has there been any other adoption of that principle? — This is the latest instance of it. Has it been pursued in any former award ; — I do not know what the former principle was. Is not the criterion which was adopted, the relative proportion of the popif- lation of the two provinces, objected to as improper, with reference to the con- sumption of dutyable articles in the two provinces ? — It has been objected to upon that ground, as well as upon several others. Do you not believe, that even in that instance, the portion awarded to Upper Canada was objected to in Lower Canada, as being too great with reference to their consumption ? — It was so objected to. Do you think it probable that the two provinces will be content with this mode of adjusting their difficulties with respect to the duties, as a permanent arrange- ment ? — I snould think not ; I should think the province of Upper Canada will never be content without a port of entry for its foreign commerce. At the same time you cannot suggest any mode in which the difficulties could be better adjusted ? — As a principle of distribution of duties between two inde- pendent Ler^islatures, I cannot. Do you - it consider that all difficulties would disappear under a union of the colonies?- do not know that; many difficulties would disappear, those with respect to the distribution of the duties would certainly disappear, but many difficulties would be created. In what re '>ect8 would it create difficulties ? — Difficulties would be created by the temper it would excite in the French party, who would think it was intended to extinguish and destroy the peculiar line of separation which they wish to keep up between themselves and their fellow subjects of English descent, in their own or in the adjoining colony ; and in case of a union, I would apprehend so much difficulty from this particular spirit of dissatisfaction, this turning of the two parties loose in the same Legislature to try which should get the upper hand, that I should think the union a dangerous measure, without some provision for a certain number of years to regulate both the revenue and the appropriation, which in Lower Canada have been the chief sources of discord ; so as to allow the parties to mix a little together before they should come into direct collision on those points which have agitated them for some years past. Would not a union excite the greatest alarm in the miuds of the French popu- lation of Lower Canada ? — Undoubtedly it would, a temporary alarm ; I think it would be only temporary, and it is to give time for that alarm to subside, that I consider it ought to be accompanied with the other measure I have mentioned. Do you mean any sort of guarantee for the maintenance of their laws and church, and institutions of ditl'erent kinds? — For their property and their church I pre- sume that no guarantee would be required, because there would be no change contemplated : but as to their law.s, I should think that if their laws are held to be oppressive upon their fellow subjects, any guarantee for the continuance of those oppressive laws would not be expected ; and what I mean, is a legislative enactment in England to regidate the amount and the appropriation of the import duties to be levied in Canada for at least 10 years; in which time such a change of men and of feelings would take place as probably to prevent any recurrence of the recent grounds of discussion, us well as to reconcile all parties to their situation under the provisions of the union. Would the Upper Canadians object to admitting the influence of the Lower Canadians in their province, which would be a necessary consequence of the union? — With respect to any imited feeliiijj of the Upper Canadians upon the subject, I ran .scarcely speak to that ; but there are many interests in Upper and in Lower Canada opposed to the union. In the first place proprietors of land j('9. () 2 and _-.*■:-. •.^^^•:fz^-L - io» MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEK 3 Jane i8a8. Mr. and of houses in the two present seats of Ciovernment, whether it be at Quebec SimtH M'GUUvray. or at York in Upper Canada, would expect that ultimately some central situation > would be selected as the place of meeUng of the general Legislature; and those that hold property in the vicinity of places at present benefited by the assembling of the respective Legislatures would be opposed to a union as being injurious to their own interest ; those also that have great influence in the local Governments, perhaps connections of the Council in either province, who could not follow the Government if removed from its present seat, would dislike the measure as interfering with a system which has been beneficial to themselves. Spcf '..iig generally, are the Upper Canadians favourably disposed to the union of the two provinces? — They decidedly are, in general. They do not apprehend any injurious influence by the united Legislature, with regard to their property and institutions? — They do not apprehend that any alteration could be made with regard to property ; they would look rather to the spreading of their institutions in tne sister province. Do you not consider that the two provinces have the s'ime interest in many respects? — I should say in all respects except from the prejudice and ignorance of a portion of the population. Have they not the same interest, especially with regard to improvements in the navigation and means of land communication, and trade regulations in general, inasmuch as they produce similar commodities for exportation, and require similar supplies from without ? — I should think they are alike in all those respects. Do you know the distance from the extreme eastern point of the district of Gaspfc to the upper end of Lake Erie? — It is, to the best of my knowledge, about 1 ,50u miles. Would any inconvenience result from mere distance alone in conducting tite aflairs of an executive government in so large a district? — In America generally the rivers arc the great roads of the country, and every thing centres so much from the river, that a distance of 200 or 300 miles along a river is of less importance than one-tenth of the distance inland from the river. The distance to Gaspe is greater than it is necessary to take into consideration, because there is scarcely any population, or any space for future population below Kamouraska, which is about 100 miles from Quebec, and to which the distance from the opper end of Lake Erie may be estimated about 1,000 miles. Supoosing that as time advances the country becomes more fully peopled in tlie interior would it be possible, in your opmion, to conduct the Government with a single Legislature and one executive department over so vast a space as would then be occupied ? — Judging from the neighbouring states, I should see no difliculty in it. Have not the neighbouring states subordinate legislatures? — Thoy have, confined to local and municipal purposes. Have you ever considered whether it would be possible to adopt any thing of the same kind, with reference to the two provinces of Canada, leaving the local affairs to be regulated by the local Legislatures, and having something in the nature of a Congress? — 'there has been a suggestion of a general Congress of all the North American provinces, it would be attended with considerable difliculty. Without applying the answer to the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, can you say what would be its efl'ect with reference to the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada? — I think it would be attended with all the difficulties of a legislative union, and would be unproductive of some of its advantages. Would it not enable the Lower Canadians to preserve those interests which they think in danger, in connection with their church and their French law, and might not the power of such united assembly be applied only to those matters which related to the two provinces in common, such as their mutual defence, and the taxation, and appropriation of the revenue for public and foneral objects? — It might certainly ; it would be rather a cumbrous ntachincry, but it migli* be establislied. Would that obviate any of the evils that are apprehended from the union? — To a certain extent it would ; but then I do not know how far it would relieve the English population of Lower Canada from the prevalence of those French laws of which they complain. Might not a system of represesitation be adopted with referc 'cc to the Flnglish population ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 109 have. population of Lower Canada, by which the Assembly of Lower Canada might be remodelled, so as to apply both to the townships and to the seigneuries, bv chang- ing the right of representation ? — The right of representation might be altered by a different distribution of the territorj' as to counties, but so long as the French Legislature possessed the control of the navigation of the Saint Lawrence, which they .still would, I think the difficulties would still remain. The question supposed that all the regulation of that line of water communi- cation which ought to be common to both provinces should be regulated only by the combined Assembly? — That might remove the difficulty as to the general regulations of commercial improvement. Would it be possible to adopt a double system of duties on the Saint Lawrence, that is to say, one for the Lower Province and another for the Upper Province, without giving rise to smuggling? — I think it would give rise to difficulties of various descriptions ; it would be very difficult to carry into effect ; and if the duty was sufficient to make smuggling an object, it would be unlimited. Supposing that the duties to be collected on the Saint Lawrence are to be uniform, and that they are to be distributed according to some mode between the two provinces, would there not necessarily be an unfairness in the distribution ?^ There must be some supreme authority to regulate the distribution, and to judge what the general benefit would require to be most advantageously expended in one part and in another. A general representation of the people would probably be the best means of ascertaining that point. Has the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada been increased in number since the Act of 1791 ? — Yes, they have been increased about threefold. Do you know according to what rule they have been increased? — I do not exactly, but I believe when a new county is laid out, as soon as it attains a certain population it is entitled to send one member, and when it gets so many more it is entitled to send two. In your opinion, is the system of representation which is founded upon the joint principle of population and territory, better adapted to a state in the condition of the Canadas, than one which has reference to population only ? — 1 should tliink, decidedly, the best principle is combining population and territory. That is to say, to parcel out a certain portion of land, and when its inhabitants amount to such a number, to give it a representative, and not to increase its repre- sentatives as the population increases? — This country is comparatively in its infancy. Looking to what its population may be, I would say that a certain extent of territory, possessing a certain number of inhabitants, much less than its neigh- bouring territory of equal extent, should still have an equal weight in the repre- sentation. Are there any complaints in L'pper Canada upon the subject of the repre- sentation ? — I believe not. Are there any complaints in Upper Canada with respect to the constitution of the Legislative Council ?— Those who are opposed to the measures of Go- vernment complain of the Legislative Council, who generally have sided with the Governor when there has been any question in difference between them, but I have not heard of any complaint of the composition of the council ; where there arc parties, however, there will always be complaints. How is the Leglislative Council composed ? — Of persons recommended by the Governor, and appointed by the King's mandamus. Are they appointed for life ? — 'They are. . :> Are they most of them persons holding offices under the Government? — Many of them are. Are not a great majority of the persons composing the Legislative Council' persons holding offices during the pleasure of Government? — I do not know that the majority are, but I believe that many of them are. Is there a very marked distinctness of feeling, and a consciousness of conflicting interests between the inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada? — The general mass of inhabitants have not much communication with each other ; I can only judge of their feelings by the opinions of their leading representatives in the House of Assembly. The people of Upper Canada are of a more active and migra- tory race, and they sometimes visit Lower Canada ; but the Lower Canadians seldom leave their own country. Mr. Simon M'OilHiraj/t 3 June iSsB. 3 June tSaS. I; il 1 ip MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE JUr. Is it not generally understood that jealousies and animosities have prevailed aimom M'OHHrray. between the two provinces? — They have prevailed more between the English "^ and French population in Lower Canada than between the two provinces. With regard to the distribution of the duties, have not jealousies prevailed between the Legislative Assemblies of the two provinces ? — There have, cer- tainly. Do you know any instance in which important improvements, with respect to nftvigation and roads between the two provinces, have been neglected from the want of concurrence in the two Legislatures ? — I do not know the particulars of the manner in which they have been neglected, but that they have been neglected is obvious to every man who travels through the country. Do you not believe that neglect to have proceeded from the want of concurrence on the part of the colonial Legislatures? — I do. Do you understand that the transit duties are now applied to wheat from the north-western states passing through Canada ? — Yes, on wheat from the United States, if imported. Is not the importing merchant allowed to bond for export? — I am not aware that he is. Has not a regulation been made to that effect within two years ? — I believe that by that regulation certain ports in the colony are made free ports, and the system of bonding for exportation ha.s been established, but that would not apply to the transit duties through Canada. If Canada was surrounded by the sea so that goods could be imported at the same port from which they might be exported, it would apply; but I am not aware that American produce could be received from Lake Ontario at Kingston, or Prescott, or Coteau du Lac, and be sent to the mouth of the St. Lawrence, and thence shipped. Could not it be bonded at Montreal and Quebec ? — How is it to get there? it could only get there by the route referred to in the last answer. Do you not believe that the inhabitants of Upper Canada consider, that with regard to their commercial position they have an advantage over the inhabitants of the United States? — I believe the more intelligent among them would be in- clined however to give up some of those restrictions upon commerce which have been imposed by the British Parliament. The question refers to local position ; do you not believe tliat under all the cir- cumstances of the United States and of Canada, they consider that they are better situated for commerce than the inhabitants of the United States? — I should think not. Do they not consider tiiat the St. Lawrence is a better navigation for the pur- pose of intercourse with Europe than the Erie Canal affords? — For their own par- ticular position it is the best access they have, and yet it happens that New York is as good a market as any that is open to them. I am not aware that they think they have any particular advantages over the people in the neighbouring country, except that tliey pay less taxes ; they pay no taxes in fact, unless for purposes of local improvement, and tlie duties on importation from the United Kingdom arc very moderate, so that they have the advantage of having all articles of import, unless from the United States, at a small duty. Do you not consider that tlie St. Lawrence is a better exit from the lakes to the sea than any tliat can I)e afforded through the medium of New York ? — Most un- doubtedly ; but that has been subject to legislative restrictions which have partly destroyed its value. Will not the facility afforded by the St. Lawrence be greatly increased by the application of steam ? — It has been, and it will be still further. Will not the canals that are now forming render it a much superior ship communication to any that can be afforded through the United States ? — There is no ship communication by canals through the United States, and the Welland Canal is the only ship canal in Canada. Are you not awnre that in the Erie Canal of New York there is but four feet and a half of water? — I am. Do you know the size of the shipping that will pass through tiie canals that are intended to connect the lakes in Canada?— On the Ridcan Cunul and the La Chine KmvA I believe the dimensions of the locks are adapted for vessels drawing about five TEE ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Ill 3 Junt littt five feet water, and I think lOo feet length, and 2C feet beam, and that thedhnen- 3ir. sions are similar in the Grenville Canal at the Rapids of the Ottawa. SmoH M' Oillmr^ . Do not you know that there is an order to enlarge those locks ?— I do not know that there is an order to enlarge them; and to enlarge those of the La Chine Canal, which are already built, would be to rebuild them. Do not you consider that any communication by shipping will alwayt have a great advantage over a communication by boats? — Undoubtedly. Do not you consider that this will afftrd very increased advantages fbr the export of the produce of the borders of the lakes ? — I think not, because I think the St. Lawrence will always preserve its advantage over the line of canal from Lake Ontario to the Ottawa. I think, for the purposes of export, the river will always be the channel of navigation. Do not you consider that all those advantages furnish a motive to the inhabitants of the British colonies with reference to the question of fidelity and attachment to the English connection? — I have been accustomed to consider tliat the population of our colonies never entertained any question upon the subject ; they were attached to their country and their property, and they never entertained a doubt of the com- parative advantages which themselves or their neighbours might possess. Do not you consider that the sources of dissatisfaction among the colonies generally arise from regulations with regard to commerce and communication, and that all the objections of that kind may be easily got over by Great Britain ? — There have been many causes of objection which i think might have been got over by being better understood and more attended to than they have been ; some slight causes of complaint have been allowed to aggravate the feelings of persons there, when perhaps a little timely attention might have removed them. But you consider that for all important purposes the people of Upper Canada are (irmly attached to the British connection? — I believe so; I believe they have very few tangible grievances to complain of. I have heard several causes of grievance ; one cause is the clergy reserves. The clergy reserves take away no man's property, they form an impediment to improvement, but that will be removed by disposing of them. There are some measures that have been carried by Government which have excited dissatisfaction ; one is the Act enabling two magistrates to send any person that they consider seditious out of the country. I believe the only individual that was ever sent out of the country was Mr. Robert Gourlay ; this is rather a hypothetical grievance than a real one. Although you consider it a hypothetical grievance that a man may be sent out of Upper Canada at the discretion of the Governor, do you conceive that the majority of the population of that province do consider that as a hypothetical grievance or as a real grievance? — It has been the subject of great dissatisfaction in the province, and because it has been a subject of di.ssatisfaction I think it an impolitic thing to pei-sist in preventing its abolition. You say that the clergy reserves take away no man's property ; do you think they do not diminish the value of property in that country ? — They have dimi- nished the value of property situated beyond them, but the difficulty will be removed by disposing of them. Have they not produced a great deal of irritation in the province ? — The dis- tribution of them has produced irritation between the parties claiming a partici- pation in their produce, and their existence in that state in which they have ^litherto remained has prevented improvement ; but I would distinguish this from actual personal grievance or oppression operating upon an individual. Is the mode in which the construction of roads is provided for in U[)per Canada liable to any objection? — I am not aware that it is; it is, to tlie best of my knowledge, by levying local rates upon the proprietors of land. In what manner is the line of each road determined ? — 1 do not exactly know ; I believe it is by certain commissioners, appointed by Government. Some com- plaints I know have existed both in Lower and Upper Canada, from the circum- stance of those persons who had the laying out of the lines of new road having expended most of the money upon parts of the road that tended to improve theit own property. Do you not consider upon that point, that great advantage would be derived from the employment of government engineers in laying out those main lines of communication with a view to the general benefit of the country ? — Undoubtedly I do so consider. 369. O 4 . Would 113 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. M'GUlivraf. 3 June 1838. Would it not be oetter to adopt the system of management pursued in the United States, and that each district should elect its own surveyors ? — Yes, that might be a good plan in some respects, but there might be some districts in which particular parts of a road might be more expensive than others*, and therefore perhaps, in that view, a general system might be beneficial for the whole country together. Jwin, 5* die Junii, 1828, ' John NeilsoH, Esquire, again called in ; and Examined. JoMn Keiliom, HAVE you any explanations that you wish to oiTer with reference to any part ^7- of the evidence you have already given? — I wish to submit a statement of the ' ^^ ' composition of the Executive Council, which I consider as unavoidably connected 5 June 1818. with the composition of the Legislative Council. This is the list of the Executive Council for 1827: Jonathan Sewell, speaker of the Legislative Council, chief justice of the province and of the district of Quebec, and president of the Court of Appeals ; the Rev. C. J. Stewart, lord bishop of Quebec ; John Richardson, merchant; James Ker, judge, K. B. Quebec, and of the Court of Vice-Admiralty ; M. H. Perceval, collector of the Customs; William Smith, clerk of the Legislative Council; John Hale, acting receiver-general; C. G. Delery, assistant clerk of the Legislative Council ; John Stewart, sole commissioner of the Jesuits estates; A. W. Cochran, Governor's secretary, law clerk of the Legislative Council, clerk of the Prerogative Court, and auditor of Land Patents; James Stuart, attorney- general. Out of these seven of them are legislative counsellors. Three of them are c'orks of the Legislative Council, and one is attorney-general. Of the whole number there is one that is a native of Lower Canada. What are the rest r — They are from different parts of the King's dominions ; the greatest proportion of them are natives of other colonies, and of the late colonies. This is the sole body in the country which has any check over the expenditure. They are delegated by the Treasury to exercise the powers of the Treasury, and they report to the Treasury, and upon their reports the governors are finally discharged ; they in fact audit the accounts. Do you consider that to be a suihcient check ? — No, it is no check at all. What would you propose to substitute ? — The matter ought to be regulated by a law. There have been bills introduced into the House of Assembly for the purpose of regulating that. Are they dismissable at pleasuiij : — The whole of them are dismissable at pleasure. Does the Executive Council exe, tiise any responsible authority ? — No, it has been held here that they are not responsible. Have they, in fact, any authority recognized by the constitution? — No further than that there was an instruction from home which required all laws raising money in the colonies to contain a clause providing that the money should be accounted for to His Majesty through tlie Lords of the Treasury, they may be considered as acting for the Lords of the Treasury under those laws. Are they, in point of fact, recognized in any other way than as a council, which the Governor may or may not corisult, according to his pleasure.'— They certainly are the only efhcient executive body in the Government; I do not know in what way the Home Government recognizes them ; I do not know that thcv are recognized by any law of tiie colony, further than as I have stated. Is the Governor obliged to consult them, or to follow their advice wiien given? — I apprehend not. When were they first appointed ? — Immediately after the conquest of the colony ; they are, in fact, a substitute for the King's Privy Council here. Are their functions in any way defined? — Not by any law that I am aware of; of course they act under the King's instructions. Have they salaries?— They have 100/. ',ach, as executive coun.sellors ; but they all hold other situations, as 1 have mentioned. How does it appear that they act at all ; are their names signed to any public documents? — All warrant' for the payment of money arc countersigned by their tflerk. ' ; ■ . Have ilii .!!' llr li \*i.»s#-**r^^'^*^^.. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. JI3 Have any of them scats in the Assembly? — Not at present; there were some of them formerly that liad ; but now there arc none. There is no law against it, is there ? — No. Have they offered themselves to the people for election? — I apprehend that latterly thev would not have been received. Occasionally members of the House of Assembly have been made executive counsellors ; but I recollect very few instances of executive counsellors having offered themselves at the elections; there arc instances, I believe ; that of the late Mr. Young was one of them ; and Mr. Richardson used to be elected formerly. Is it an oflicc, the appointment to which would vacate a seat in the House of Assc.nbly ? — No. There has been an attempt to establish the same law as exists here in respect to vacating seats ; but the bill has been refused by the Council, so that of course it would not vacate the seat, their being members of the Council. Did that bill pass the House of Assembly r — It diil. Have you got a copy of that bill ? — I will produce one to the Committee. Is there any individual who holds a high executive office who has also a seat in the Assembly ? — There have always bf en some executive officers in the House, that have been managing the business ^u the part of the Government. Are there a.iy now ? — Yes, there is the auditor of public accounts, Mr. T. A. Young, the House is not in existence at present. The principal conductor on the Sart of Government last session was the assistant adjutant-general of Militia, Ir. Taschereau, Mr. Ogden the solicitor-general, and Mr. Christie, the chairman of the quarter sessions at Quebec. Who is the person who is the principal manager of the finance of the country ; is there any oincc that at all answers to the chancellor of the exchequer here ? — No, it has generally been considered with us that there was one person that was leading for the Government in the House, and this leading man was the assistant adjutant- feneral of militia, and latterly, police magistrate, now a judge of the King's lench for district of Quebec. Has it been considered that it was objectionable that the officers belonging to the Government should initiate any measure in the House of Assembly ? — Not at all ; the fact is, that they have always initiated measures connected with the Govern- ment ; but the members generally do not think themselves bound to take charge of the measures of the Government, unless those measures be agreeable to them. There is no objection made to a member of the Government initiating a measure ? — Surely not : it is managed by message with us, and the member that takes up the message is usually considered as the gentleman authorized on the part of the Government to conduct it through the House. Have you any other explanation to make with regard to your former evidence ? — On a former occasion, I stated that the objection to the Bill sent up in 1819 by the House of Assembly was, that it was annual ; and on consulting the journals, I find that the objection was, that it was by items, and also that it. was annual ; I stated also, that the permanent revenue was sufficient for the expenses of the Government. By permanent revenue, I understand the whole of the revenue that is permanent, not that which is appropriated for our colonial expenses ; but on consulting I find that it has been diminishing of late. To what cause do you attribute that diminution? — The revenue principally depends on the consumption on the part of the inhabitants of goods imported, that consumption is diminishing in consequence of the diminution of the means of the country to purchase the goods. Is there any diminution of the means of the country to purchase goods ? — Very material. To what do you attribute that? — I stated before, that there had been a general depression in tlic value of landed property throughout the country during the last 12 or 15 years; the value of landed property there depends entirely upon the price that can be obtained for the produce of that land ; the price of all kinds of produce has materially diminished, and consequently the value of property has diminished, and the means of the people to purchase manufactured articles have diminished. Has not the increase of the number of consumers been more than sufficient to counteract any decrease ? — It has not been so. Is not the price of articles of raw produce higher generally in Canada than it 569. P " is John NtUitu, 5 June i8*>. 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE JUh MaUtm, i* in the United States ? — No, it haa not been m> latterly ; previous to the war, Mif. and during the last war, it was considerably higher; but since 1817 there has ■— -' ^ been a decrease, and now I believe it is lower than it is in the United States. SIm»iIs8. i\,^ price of wheat at Albany is about 5«. a bushel, and we cannot f^et that price for it in Lower Canada. I wish to state, with respect to the bill to indemnify vlis Majesty, which I mentioned, it was a mere clerical error those words being used. 1 stated that only one registry bill had been brought into the House of Assembly, that might leave it to oe understood that I did not think of the one that was introdiiccd from the Council. There was only one brought in by the House of Assembly, but there was one sent down from the Council, which was referred to a committee ; it was within a fortnight of the cbse of the session when it was brought down, and there was no report upon the subject At the time of my former examination I did not recollect the fate of the road bill, which I stated was 8cnt down from the Council. It was sent down near the close of tiie session. It was conducted by the gentlemen who usually conducted the government business in the House, aud referred to a committee ; and he actually made a report that it was too late for the then session. Is that the only road bill that was thrown out in the lower House ? — That is the only road bill that I have any knowledge of, that has been said to have been tlirown out ; but it was not thrown out, it was too late in the session. In what year was that? —I think it was in the year 1834. In speaking of the townships, and of the security that they would have under the representation bill that passed the Assembly, I ought to have stated one fact, which is material : that that or no other bill could give the townships a sufficient shore in the repre- sentation, unless doubts similar to those which have been started in Upper Canada, in respect of the right of those people to vote, should be removed ; and the removal of those doubts can only be effected by the Legislature of this country. Do you allude to the Alien Rill? — Yes, there ought to be a bill passed in favour of those people similar to that which was passed for Upper Canada, otherwise they would not have a fair representation under any circumstances ; the moment they came to vote their votes would be questioned, and they would be deprived of their right of voting ; in fact tliey would not be represented. They have elected one member generally heretofore ; the member for Bedford has been solely of their election, because they formed a majority of that county ; but latterly they have elected a Canadian gentleman, Colonel De Rouvillc. In my former examination I was asked what was the number of English members now in the House ; I could not state with any certainty without referring to a list. I have since referred to a list, and I find that those that are called English members in , the House at present amount to eight; there were eleven in the preceding House, but tliree of them lost their elections ; four out of the eight are natives of Lower Canada, two of them of Scotland, one of Upper Canada, and one of Nova Scotia ; four of them are opposed to the Colonial Administration, and four of them arc in its favour. Witli regard to the arrangement of the civil list, respecting which there was a question put to me, the statements I made on that subject of course can only be expected to be realized, provided the complaints which are brought forward on the part of the Assembly and the people were removed, or in a probable train of being removed ; for one of the great objections is, that a per- manent supply would only ensure jiermancnt grievances ; it would be necessary then that the grievances should be removed at the time that a permanent supply was granted. Ill point of fact, since the year 1819, with the exception of the years 1823 and i8j5, has not the Governor paid such deficiencies as he thought proper, out of monies which he acJiiiowledgcd to be at the disposal of the Colonial Legislature ? — Yes. To what amount ? — I cannot say the exact amount. I apprehend that one of the gentlemen that came with me will be more particular upon that subject, but I understand it to be about 140,000/. Has that left any thing considerable, or any thing at all, for local improvements, education, and the other wants of ihc country? — I think there would have been a surplus if the rcceiver-generiirs money had not been lost; since that time I apprehend that nearly the whole has been expended in one way or another. I know that 30,000/. which was authorized to be borrowed to complete the La Chine Canal, has not been repaid, and we have no correct statement of the chest. 9 We ^E ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »i5 They We iiaver got the receiver-general's accounts (ill the time that he failed, and w* cannot say what is the true state of the cash iu the chest ; besides there are payments out of the chest for purposes that we do not consider as connected with the province at all ; for instance, clergy payments, the monies paid from the military chest into the civil c.-est. The money is paid out of the military chest into the civil chest, and then it is paid out of the civil chest to the clergy. When Mr. Caldwell's accounts were delivered in were they audited up to tha last moment? — No, we could trace no acquittal from the Treasury subsequently to 1814: there had been some balances stated up to 1819, but no acquittal. He failed in 1823, and the accounts were before us in 1824. There was a message from the Governor on the subject, by which it appeared that there had been no regularity ; the warrants had not even been regularly issued to authorize payments. What sum of money had been advanced without legal warrants? — I do not, know what may be considered as legal warrants ; I conceive that, according to the 14th of the King, there ought to be warrants from the Treasury here. The other warrants considered to be legal, are warrants signed by the Governor, and counter- signed by the clerk of the Council ; but, independently of all those payments, therv have been advances upon what are called letters of credit At the time the receiver- general failed tliere was to the amount of 1 16,000/. of them ; and since that time they have introduced a new mode, which we consider woroe still than the former, that is what they call ' accountable warrants.' In truth, the receiver-general is dis- charged against the Treasury, and the receiver-general runs less risk than he did before ; that is the result of it. But the money of the province goes out without any sufficient accountability, or without the expenses having been supported by vouchers, and undergoing even the examination of the Council. Did not the House of Assembly, in the year 1825, pass a resolution, declaring Lord Dalhousie responsible for that money so raised i — They have passed a great many resolutions ; I b'^lieve they never did declare Lord Dalhcusie personally responsible, but they declared that they would hold responsible every person con- cerned in issuing the money of the province without the authority of law. Did not they, at the same time, pass certain resolutions that Lord Dalhousie had so expended the money ? — Yes, the resolutions which I gave in the other day, I believe, are to that efl'ect ; the resolutions iu 1 S34. On what authority is it stated, in the petition presented to the House of Commons, that Mr. Caldwell was maintained in the exercise of his functions, as receiver-general, long adet his malversation was publicly known and acknow. lodged ? — That is in the Montreal petition. The fact is, that he was so retained during some time. How do you know the fact? — It is upon the journals of the Assembly ; whea the receiver-general failed, his accounts were laid before the House of Assembly, and there was a committee appointed, and an examination into the whole matter. There came out a number of documents, some of which established the fact that his deBciency was known for a considerable time before he was suspended ; in truth I believe it did not extend to a greater time than was necessary to send a person to England, and come back again ; there was a person deputed by Loixl Dalhousie and the receiver-general, namely, the receiver-general's brother-in-law, Mr. Davidson. Did the province sustain any additional loss by his continuing during that time? — It is probable there would be some loss, because there would be some revenue coming in, and it was a dangerous thing that the revenue should be coming into the hands of a person who must have been so hard pressed as Mr. Caldwell was at that time. Was the office practically given into the charge of any other person ? — Yes ; it was, subsequently, in August ; but the Journals of the House of Assembly of 1824 will show the whole of the facts. What steps were taken to secure the Public from additional loss as soon as the malversation and insolvency of Mr. Caldweii were known? — There were no steps that I know of that were taken ; I happened to be in this country at that time, and I speak merely from the knowledge I have of the proceedings in 1834 ; I be- lieve that shortly after the prorogation of the Legislature in 1 823, it was found that there was not money in the chest to meet the appropriations of the Legis- lature, then there was a long correspondence between Mr. Caldwell and the Governor, and I believe then it was determined to send somebody home ; this 569. P 2 must Mm 5 JfHMll m. 1 16 MINUTl?g OP EVIDENCE BEPORE SELECT COMMITTEE «JllMl»«ltr \ J, ■ must hftve been in April, and I thinic that in the month of July or August fol> lowinpr there were two persons anpointed to manage the business pro tempore. Are you not nwnre that Mr. Caul well pleaded as in some degree a justification for that defalcation, that the Assembly refused him any salary, and that he was com- nelled therefore to make use of this money us a remuneration for his services r — No, I believe he did not complain in that way ; but I know for certain that he applied in 1814 for an increased salary. Was that granted to him ■ — No. •'' Was it not understood that he was to make use of that money ? — No, »wt\y ' not ; if it had been so understood the whole province would have been in an uproar, and I myself would never have npplied to him fur bills of exchange, for I would never have trusted him if I had known that he would use a sixpence of the public money without authority. What was his salary?— His salary was fixed by the Cioverment here at a yearly sum, I think, soon after the possing of the 14th of the King, 400/. and too/, for a clerk ; but there was a recommendation of Sir George Prevost to allow him a salary; they could not proceed iit all without a recommendation from the Oovemor, and the moment they had that recommendation they intended that there should be something done to regulate the chest ; the matter was not finished that session, and the next session there was no recommendation, and it never came before the Assembly again ; there had been occasional rumours ; there was a bill introduced in 1S15, and probably those rumours were in some mea.wre founded upon the circumstance of un application for an increased salary. Does the receiver-general keep the money in his own hands, or does he deposit it in any bank r — The whole of the monies received for the King in Lower Canada, whether by British statutes or by provincial statutes, have been put into the hands of the receiver-general, and he lios kept them all in his own house; I speak now of Mr. Caldwell ; since that time, I believe that Colonel Hale has got a vault made to keep the monies in. Is the money absolutely and entirely in his custody ? — It was, in the time of Colonel Caldwell. Can you state what would be the largest amount that in the ordinary course of the finances of the country would be in his hands? — The revenue comes in very irregularly ; it comes in in the May and October quarters I think ; that part upon which some credit is allowed upon giving bond, is paid, a great part, in the May Siuarter, and the other part comes in principally in October. Now the warrants or payments used to be issued on the ist of May and the 1st of November, so that it naturally would take tnc money out of the receiver's hands very rapidly when the funds are low. Since the failure of the receiver-general, J suppose there never could be a great sum in his hands, perhaps 20,000/. 30,000/. or 40,000/. What was the actual loss incurred by the insolvency of Mr. Caldwell ?- » The actual deficiency of cash was 9('),oo<>/. .sterling; but besides that, there was I i6,(ioo/. of money advanced upon letters of credit, for which Mr. Caldwell was not discharged. The receiver-general was responsible for about 216,000/. till such time as he was discharged of that iiG,u()o/. lie is not discharged of that, I apprehend, even now, because the account of the advances arc never settled, so that in reality there would stand 216,000/. against him at the Treasury, although the real deficit was only 96,000/. When Mr. Hale was app'^inted his successor, were sufficient securities required from him ? — None at all ; the appointment was considered as temporary, 1 believe, but the matter of securities has been entirely neglected in Lower Canada. Had any security been required of Mr. Caldwell r — Security had been given in this country ; but it nvus provided that he should give security in the colony also, but that security was never taken. Has the security in this country been obliged to pay any money ? — I think not ; I have heard that there were some arrangements made with the Colonial Govern- ment, by which he kept his estates, and allowed 2,000/. to the Government. There is still a litigation in the coiuls in Canada between the Crown and Mr. Caldwell. Was it ever known who his sureties were in this country? — Yes, in the Journal of the House of Assembly their names are stated, .,/ . Have PIP ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. "7 Have Have any proceeding* been taken againit those periona? — Not that I know of. By whom are the accoiintu of the receiver>general audited f — In the fir«t in* itence, by the executive council of the province, then thev arc given to the Governor, who transmits them to the Treasury ; and we could trace no acquittal subscaucnt to 1814 ; so that in reality the Governor, the council of the province and the receiver-general had been managing the whole of the revenue of the province without any actual control. Are the accounts required to be audited periodically r---Yos, by the King's in- structions to the Governor they ought to be audited in the colony every six months, and transmitted to the'lreasury here. Is the Governor to require the accounts to be audited once in six months? — ' Yes, the instructions have been very precise on the subject that the Governor should attend to the proper expenditure of public monies and account, and the receiver-general by his commission is required to give in a statement. By whom is the receiver-general appointed r — Appointed by the King, not as acting in the colony, but as acting here, by the Lords of the Treasury in fact In what way do you think that the office of treasurer would be rendered most secure and the duties of it best performed ? — The office ought to be regulated by law, so tliat no disbursements ought to be made unless it be in a certain form, and regular accounts of the receipts and payments with the vouchers ought to be laid before the Legislature every year, so that the Legislature and the Public may see the true state of its ail'airs. What measures have been adopted to prevent a recurrence of the inconvenience suffered by the Public in consequence of the insolvency of the receiver-general ? — The AMembly passed a bill on the subject, which it sent to the Council, but the Council rc^jected the bill ; nothing has ever been communicated to the Assembly since the failure of Mr. Caldwell, but I have understood, in private conversation, that instructions have come out providing a remedy. I never saw them, nor do I know the nature of them further than that there was some kind of precaution to be taken that the money could not go out in the same way as it had gone out in Mr. Caldwell's time ; but so long as the colony, which furnishes the money, has no check, there will always bo mischief; there might be a dozen keys and a dozen locks, and yet they might all agree ; it is only those that pay the money that are an efficient check. In what way do you think that that check ought to be exercised ? — There ought to be a law regulating the receipts and disbursements of the receiver-general's office, and the account ought to be regularly laid before the Legislature every year, so that they may see the true state of the case. At present the accounts laid before the Legislature are made up from the receiver-general's statements ; but they are not the receiver-general's statements. There are accounts framed in the Executive Council Office, which are laid before the Legislature ; but they are not the real accounts of the chest ; those are what we want to see. How do they differ from the accounts of the chest? — We cannot tell, because we have no regular account of the chest ; such an account as they please of the state of our affairs they send to us. You have an account purporting to be a general account ; but you cannot tell whether it is a true oaf ' —We cannot tell whether it is a true one, because we tlo not see the account . the officer that makes the payments. How do you propose to remedy that by law ? — There was one law passed, which is similar to that of Jamaica. Is not there an account given in, signed by some responsible officer? — It is signed by somebody ; but there is no responsibility. Who is it signed by? — It is signed sometimes by the inspector-general of accounts, and sometimes by the audi tor- general of accounts ; they are merely preparatory accountants to the Executive Council, and the Executive Council is •not responsible. Then you have their authority for saying that the account is correct? — We have their authority, certainly. By whom is the account transmitted to the Assembly ? — It is transmitted by a message from the Governor, saying that he lays that account before the Assembly. Has not the colony to complain of the default of other receivers of public money besides the receiver-general ?— The province has to complain, and does 569. P 3 complain Join Ntikom, Ktf. i JuM list.. ^«^1iij^i^f"V-'^ 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE John JfiUton, Rtq, 5 June i8a8. complain severely, on the subject. Tlie sheriff of Quebec, appointed in 1817, failed about the same time that the receiver-general failed; and there was a deficiency of monies deposited in his hands by judgments of the courts of justice, to the amount of about 37,000/. That money was the money of poor people of every description, that had had the misfortune to go into the courts, widows and orphans; and they have still to look for a remedy. When I came awr^y, the sheriff that had been named jointly with the person that succeeded Mr. de Gasp6 had stopped payment likewise ; but I am glad to find that there has been a decision in the court that the other sheriff is bound with him, so that the Public will not be so much losers as was expected. Un the sherifi' coming to England there was another appointed jointly with him during his absence, and the parties who have not fj^ot their money have sued the other sherifl', and it has been con- sidered that they were liably jointly, and I belisve there has been judgment to that efi'ect ; but then that will go into the Court of Appeals probably, the Executive Council, and there is another risk. How are the sherifls appointed? — By the Governor. . , ; Are they annual officers or permanent ? — They are during pleasure. Do they not complain that since the default of ofiicers in that situation others have been appointed without requiring sufficient security ? — They do ; I know of no security that was required of Mr. Sewell, who is the present sheriff, nor do I know of any security that was required of the other ; there has been a good deal of complaint on the subject. What funds are those which are in the sherifl 's hands ? — People go into the courts of justice to recover money that is due to them, there is judgment given, the sherifl' executes that judgment, levies the money, and the money remains in his hands till it can be distributed, by judgment of the court, to each person what belongs to him. It of course remains in his hands till the final judgment and distribution, which is frequently delayed for a considerable time ; and it is out of those monies that the defalcation took place. Are sheriffs sales very common ? — They have been very coinmon. What is the cause of their being so common ? — They have become very common since the close of the last war, because the country became poor ; real property particularly diminished in value; those that had claims upon it insisted upon payment, and sued, and then it was seized by the sherifl' and sold. Has that been resorted to as the securest mode of conveyance in consequence of the defect of the law? — It has in several instances; the Legislature passed a bill providing for voluntary sheriff's sales. That is a proceeding something like a decrtt under the French law; the parties come into court and say that they wish to have the benefit of a dixrit ; under this proceeding there is public notice to all the world that such property is to be sold, so that every one may come forward and put in his claim ; then the sale takes place, and the whole is under the inspection of the court to see that every one gets his due ; then every one having got his due, the title to the property is more secure than it would otherwise be. Then a large portion of public property has fallen under sherifi's sales on account of the defects of the law? — Not during the time of Mr. De Gasp^; the law diil not exist then. Hut the fact is, that for the purpose of getting a secure title you are obliged to have recourse to a sheriff's sal :- -It has been done since the law, and I believe before that law it was done; jic .plo wished to have a sale in virtue of judgment, so that there might be no contest thereafter; but those sales do not bar certain claims, 1 inive understood, now. Do they bar a prior mortgage upon the estate ? — Yes, all mortgages except rights of minors and persons absent ; persons in fact that cannot come forward and answer for themselves. Then it is not a secure title against tlicm ? — It is not a secure? title against |)er- sons that liave it not in their power to exercise their right of coming forward, they cannot hv. deprived, tliat is universally so understood. You stated that the management of public monies for purposes of internal im- provement was better in the United States than in Canuiiii, can you mention any instances which authorize you in making that statement ? — I conceive that the same amount of money goes i'uither there than with us, and this I ascribe to better management and greater responsibility ; I will state an instance : the La Chine Canal 111 I % ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Mp Canal cost about Haifa million of dollars ; it was nine miles in extent. The New York Canal cost about eight million of dollars, that is sixteen times as much, and it is 320 miles in extent, and upon the whole, it was liable to as great expenses, if not greater, than the La Chine Canal, on account of the number of locks, and the great elevation of the country to carry the canal over, so that there is a remarkable difference against us in the result of the expenditure. To what do you attribute that difference ? — I attribute it to not sufficient account- ability in our expenditure. Was it a government work ? — Yes, it is not well looked after ; when any gentle- man gets work done without looking after it, it will not be done half so well, nor nearly at so moderate a rate. Our canal gives hardly any revenue ; their canal gives a very great revenue ; there is another proof of the management : I should say, generally, they manage their affairs better than we do. Is the La Chine Canal not used ? — It is used, but it gives very little revenne. I do not suppcoc that it gives more than between 2,000 /. and 3,'^oo /. a year. It is stated in the petition that a great many militia officers have been dismissed without just cause? — There have been a great number of dismissions, and they allege that it has been without sufficient reason or just cause. What in public opinion is believed to be the reason that those militia officers were dismissed ? — The almost universal opinion latterly is, that it is owing to their taking a part in sending complaints to England. What grounds are there for entertaining that opinion ? — There is no doubt that several of them were present at the meetings at which the petitions were adopted, and I believe that several of them presided at those meetings. Was any motive assigned for their dismission by the Governor? — Yes, a very bad motive ; having become active in'^truments of a party hostile to His Majesty's Government. Were they dismissed by a general order? — They were dismissed by a genera] order; there had been about 200 dismissals within the last 18 months, either dismissals, or putting on the shelf in another way ; there has been a general doing and undoing of the whole militia. The general order for the last dis- missions is as follows:— it is dated, " Office of the Adjutant-General of Militia, Quebec, February 21st, 1828. General Order of Militia. The Governor and Commander-in-Chief has seen with regret that several officers commanding bat- talions of militia, forgetting their duty to set an example of subordination and respect for authority to those placed under their command, have shown them- selves the active agents of a party hostile to His Majesty's Government; such conduct tending to create discontent in the country, and to bring the executive Government into contempt among the people, cannot be permitted to pass with- out notice ; his Excellency, therefore, in virtue of the po-.ver vested in him by His Majesty, signifies to the undermentioned officers that His Majesty has no further occasion for their services— 3d battalion of Buckinghamshire, Lieut- Colonel Francois Legcndrc; 1st battalion of Bedford, U. Hertel de Uouville; 3d batta:ion of the county of St. Maurice, A. Poulin de Courval ; 1st battalion of Kent, R. Boucher de Labruere ; 2d battalion of Huntingdon, Major M. Ray- mond. The Ciovernor-in-Chief thinks it not less his public duty than an act of justice to the loyal militia of the province, to put them on their guard against being misled by the arts and misrepresentations of ill-disposed persons, to enter- tain unfounded suspicions of the views and acts of Government, or to swerve from thut respect for its authority, and that spirit of obedience for the laws which becomes dutiful and loyal subjects. By order of his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief. (signed) " V. Vassal de Monvicl, Adj.. Gen. M. F." Were those officers embodied with their corps at that time ; were they out on duty ? — I'. very man in Canada from 1 8 to 60 years of age is a militia man, and no man is cinbodiod »ni!css he be drawn from tiie niilitiu ; they are all militia men and liabli! to militia duty, although they are living upon their own farms ; but there is no embodied militia now. Do they meet at all for training and exercise ?— They meet to have the roll called, so as to keep them in existence ; with tins view, that when in virtue of H law it may be necessary to embody a portion of the militia, they may be ready. Are they supplied with arms ? — No, they have no arms. 5 Joile i8a8. 5(»<). 1>4 Do i 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE JoimNeilsoM, Do they appear in uniform ? — No. Biq. Is this militury power thus exercised over the militia, in point of fact, possessed ^ ^ by the Governor, in his military capacity, over every subject in Canada? — It would 5 June i8a8. jje so ; but, in point of fact, the great body of the people of Canada consider that lie has no warrant upon that subject, because- they consider the law as in non- existence. What law? — The Governor and the Council suffered the Militia Laws to expire in 1827, and tiiey revived then an old ordinance which was passed in 17S8 or 1789, before the existence of the present constitution, and it is under that ordinance that all the noise has been made lately. The people are generally of opinion that the law is not in force ; but in the first instance, with respect to the mere parading to call the names over, nobody objected to it; but when they came to exact more than was usual under the laws that had existed ever since the pre- sent constitution, the people began to clamour on the subject, and those clamours have led, in some measure, to the present diiiiculties. There are actually dismissed of the officers, by general orders, 63, and there are a great number that are put on the shelf. Are any portion of the mihtia called out during peace ? — No ; the system has been this : the whole population of Lower Canada have been declared to be liable to bear arms under certain circumstances, when there is a rebellion in the country, or when the country is invaded ; for that purpose they are all enrolled ; there is a roll made of the whole male population from 1 8 to Go years of age, and there is a roll called every year to see that they are all in being, and there are provisions made that in time of war there should be a drafting of the militia to form the embodied militia. During the last war we had about 7,000 or 8,000 of those men on the frontiers ; we used to draw every third unmarried citizen to send them to the frontiers. Are commissions appointed r — The officers all hold commissions ; there is a general organization of the whole male population of the country as a militia ; that in time of peace is nothing, but in time of war every man is liable to march.. Do the officers n;ceive any pay in time of peace? — Nothing, it is all a burthen; they lose their time, and they sometimes suffer a good deal of expense ; they spend money in volunteer dressed companies. About what is the whole number of the officers? — The whole militia of the province consists of C6 battalions and seven companies; the whole number of officers of the 66 battalions, including those that have had the retraiks, is 2,p.'54. Including non-commissioned officers ? — No, commissioned officers only, in- cluding the rank of ensiirn and upwards. Is not some claim made to property tliat formerly belonged to the Jesuits, and is it not urged on the part of the Assembly that the proceeds of it ought to be ap- f)ropriated under their direction to the maintenance of public education r — There las been a claim urged against the Jesuits estates since the year 1 793 by ])etition to the Legislature. The statement on the part of the people is, that the property belonging to the Jesuits was given to them for the purpose of the general education of the youth of the country, and that the Jesuits becoming extinct, the property ought to be applied for the purposes for which it was originally given; in fact, that the Jesuits under the vow of poverty could not hold property but for colleges ; and the result of the dissolution of the order of Jesuits in France has been that the property has been applied to the purposes for which it was originally granted, but under some other authority. Has tiie claim any otiier foundation than the general reasoning you have stated ? — Tiicre are several reports upon the subject l)y the Mouse of Assembly, and the Eduiation Report of 1^24, which is to be found in the journals. Wliut answer has the Ciovernmcnt yjiveu to the claims that have been made by the Assembly upon tlic subject : — There has been no answer on the subject. In what way have the proceeds of the Jesuits estates been disposed of? — We have no uccoiiut of them. Do you know by wlioiii the iticome arising from those estates is received? — There was foriiieiiy a coniniis-sion and a treasurer, and the treasurer received the money, and he |)ai(l it into the hands of the receiver-general ; ))art of it, I undcrstucid, was lost with tiie receiver-general ; since iiat time there has been a. new conunission issued, an.' general educa- tion. Now the seminary at Quebec, which was formerly erected for forming clergymen, embraces the whole range of the sciences, and so does the Montreal seminary. Have any disputes arisen with respect to the character of the system of education to be established ; is there any wish on the part of the Canadians that it . should be entirely of a French and of a Catholic character ; and do the English inhabitants wish that it should be of a more general character? — There has been a ^ood deal of jealousy on the part of the Roman Catholics on the sub- ject of education ; that, I believe, was occasioned by instructions from this country subsequent to the conq\iest. When were those instructions sent ? — They must have been sent shortly after the conquest, but they have been renewed frequently since, and it seemed to the Roman Catholics to be a kind of a system of proselytism, which of course pro- duced some degree of alarm. There was an Act passed in 1801 for the establish- ment of schools ; they were to be endowed by the King as schools of royal foun- dation, and they were to be under the management of a corporation to be named by the Ciovernor ; that corporation was not named till 1817, and it happened to consist mostly of those of one religion alone; the bishop of the church of England and the clergy of the church of England were at the head of the corpo- ration, and the majority of the members were of the church of England, and that tended to confirm the suspicions the people had entertained with respect to proselytisni, and it was needless to think of getting them to go to the schools after that ; for there has hardly been an instance of the conversion of a Roman Catholic since the conquest, and I believe very few on the other side ; but still all parties seem to be perfectly attached to their own religion and are afraid of any thing like proselytism. In consequence of that, those schools have fallen through. No property has been given to them as was proposed by the Crown ; they have had very few scholars ; but they have applied about 30,000/. of the money of the province for their support. Notwithstanding I suppose, that altogether they have not educated 1 ,200 children a year since they were established. What was that 30,000/. derived from? — From the provincial revenue. Have any steps been taken for the establishment of schools in the townships? — Yes ; but they will not have those schools in the townships ; they will have no schools in the townships that may appear to be under the direction of one particular church. In your own opinion, what would be the best system upon which schools for the instruction of the population generally could be established in the colony ? — The system that was proposed by the House of Assembly by a bill in 1814, whs similar to that of Scotland, and with some of the modes adopted in New England. It was to have schools in every parish ; the parishioners to have the power of as.se-ss- ing themselves for the purpose of maintaining tiiose schools, and to appoint persons, a kind of trustees, to have the management of the schools. Could schools be estaljlisheii to which both Catholics and Protestants could have recourse in common ? — The moment you distinguish between Pi otestant and Catholic, that moment you separate thorn from one another; you must not consider them us either Protestants or Catholics, or else there i.s a distinction between them immediately. Is not the power ot charitable contribution lor llic i)urposes of education limited by law in Cinada.'-- It is. .After a srreat niiiny etlorts to establish schools in Lower Canada, 1 think the bill was re|ected iive or six tiuics, allowing a certain r/u). Q stnn John SeitioUt Enq. 5 June i8ools ; and whether they are assisted by law or not they will be educated. Were those bills rejected by the Legislative Council ? — They were. On what grounds? — I cannot say ; the general expression among them was that they would have no other Act but the Act of 1801 ; and the Act of 1801 could not be executed from the fears witii respect to religion. Was there any disinclination expressed to the system of the people assessing themselves ? — No ; that bill, however, never got to the Legislative Council ; it was introduced just at the close of the war, and the substitute for it was a gift to each parish, whether it was a parish of the Roman Catholic church, the cnurch of England, or the church of Scotland, or of Dissenters, provided they esta- blished a school, and had a certain number of scholars in it, they were to have from the provincial fund 200/., but that was objected to in the Legislative Council. Then seeing tiiat had failed so often, permission, as I have mentioned, to each parish to hold property for schools was introduced, and it finally passed, allowing property to the amount of 75/. a year to be held by those schools. Do you understand that a great desire for instruction has displayed itself in the townships? — There is no doubt of it; there is no American that does not think the education of his children is an essential part of his duty. What is there to prevent the people from assessing themselves voluntarily for the purpose? — They have no legal authority for it; if they had they would have done it long ago. Has any attempt b'>en made to introduce an Act giving that permission.'— No, I believe not ; at least I know of no attempt but the general bill of 1814. Do you apprehend that any difficulty would be made by the Canadian party to any such enactment? — I can assure the Committee that the Canadian pnr^ will do every thing that is possible to promote education, no matter by what party ; they are persuaded that the country cannot ge< on without a general education. Was there ever a period when the measures of the Government were commonly supported by the majority of the Assembly r — Certainly ; after the establishment of the constitution in 1792 till 1806 and 1807, the Government had a constant majority in the House, or at least Government generally succeeded in all its measures. To what do you attribute the change that has taken place since that period ? — The great cause of the change was the administration of Sir James Craig ; he was very violent with the House of Assembly and the people generally ; and he accused them of a grea^. many things, and finally, on the eve of a general election he put three of the leading members of the Assembly into gaol under a charge of treasonable prp.ctices, and kept them there till some of them subscribed to any conditions in order to get out, and others continued in till they opened the doors of the gaol arid let them go out ; the truth was that there was no notion of treason amontr the people. Do you believe these proceedings to have had a permanent influence on the Assembly: — It was the end of all influence of the administration, because it involved not only the Governor, but all tiie persons that were in (iovernment em- ploy ; they took an active part in it, and consequently lost their influence with the ppojilf. Since tluif iiciirxl Ikis tlic (iovcrnnient had no majority in the Assembly?--- It iiLvcr coiiltl coiiiniiiiul ;i majority. Durinji the whole administration of Sir wcrr uniiiiirncius in suppejrtin}^ all liis measures, because then ot defcnJiiig the country, and of doing what was necessary George IVevost tliey there tvas u (|U):stion IE ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 123 necessary to be done to aid for that purpose, and they were nearly the sole supporters of the (lovcrni.ient at that time. During Sir John Sherbrook's admi- nistration, the people generally were on the side of the Government, and they had a majority for all their measures in the House of Assembly, but they have had no majority that they could command since the time of Sir James Craig. The Committee have before them a letter addressed by Mr. Papineau and yourself to tbj Under Secretary of State upon the subject of the union, and in that letter you state that the inhabitants of the settlements, which you call a continuation of the American settlements in Lower Canada on the frontiers of the United States, have very little intercourse or community of interest with the body of His Majesty's subjects in Lower Canada ? — They had at that time very little intercourse indeed ; their intercourse was with the United States principally. How did it arise, that being subjects of the same King, and living under the same Government, they rould be held in your opinion to have little intercourse or community of interest with the rest of His Majesty's subjects? — They are living within about 100 miles of Portland, on the sea shore, in the United States ; and they are, I suppose, 100 miles from the St. Lawrence ; their intercourse has been princi- pally with the country from which they came, their connections altogether are there, and the roads between those settlements upon the frontiers of the United States and the River St. Lawrence are through a forest. Persons in this country can hcve very little idea of a road through a forest in America ; if a road were made as good as any Macadamized road here, it would not be safe to travel one week, for the first gust of wind that comes in the spring of the year, or the first thunder storm in summer, would throw trees down across it, and there- fore it cannot be travelled unless you have people living there to clear the road ; now the whole extent of that country is still a natural forest between those settle- ments and the old settlements on the River St. Lawrence ; there have been roads made, but those roads, for want of settlers, get filled up, even though they are passable for carts ; after the work is done they get filled up by the falling of trees, and there is nobody to look after the roads. Are the Committee to understand that it would be impossible to maintain roads between the townships on the American borders and the seigneuries upon the St. Lawrence till the intermediate country is settled? — There is nothing to be done towards making practicable roads till you make settlements. If the crown and clergy reserves were done away with, and you were to grant lands to peo- ple on condition that they would settle on thcni, they would settle ; but people do not like to go a great way into the woods, and to have those crown and clergy reserves to encounter; it is a dreadful thing under any circumstance to live perhaps 16 miles from a human being; it is impossible for a man to live if he has not got neighbours to help him ; he cannot clear away a forest, ho cani.ot prevent the rotten trees that are occasioned by the burning of the woods from falling down and killing his cattle, and ruining his fences ; in fact it is impossible for a man to settle down in America and live on the land unless he has got neighbours around him. You sta*e in this letter that the laws which regulate property and civil rights, the customs, manners, religion and even prejudiccy [)reviiiling in the two provinces are essentially different; and you also state that the inhabitants of Upper Canada, from their distance from the sea, and the want of an external market, have in a great measure ceased to be consumers of the description of goods upon which duties arc raised in the port of Quebec ; and you go on to show that their interests are so distinct, that there would be no mode of induci ig them to co-operate in measures for the public welfare, or to entertain the same views of general policy ; Is that still your opinion ? - It is true that the laws, customs, manners and pre- judices of the two countries are essentially difl'erent; it is true, likewise, that they are Iwginning to consume largely American manufactures in Upper Canada, par- ticularly in the part of the country above Lake Ontiirio, which, I think, contains about half the population of the province ; and I believe there is a great line of distinction between the whole of the views and interests of the tivo provinces. I cannot say positively that they could never be brought to co-operate ; I believe they have a very friendly disposition towards one another at present, and a friendly disposition will go a long way to produce co-operation under very diHicult circum- stances ; i)ut, generally speaking, it would be considered a very great hardship that the pi'ojjlc; of Upper (.'anada should be obliged to come to Lower ('anada to uiukc their local laws, or that the [)eojile of l.oucr Canada should be obliged to 5(iy. Q J go £17. 5 June iSiS. 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE y«Aa Neilton, 5 June 1838. go up to Upper Canada to make their local laws. The United States along that frontier have the convenience of having five diflerent local legislatures along that same line. There is nothing got by being a member of the Assembly of the Pro- vinces ; it is all labour, and no profit. In that case they must go 700 miles, througli a very difficult country to travel, to attend to all their little afl'airs : it would render the situation almost unfit to be held by any body that had not a larger fortune than can be found in that country. Must not all the commerce between the Upper Province and the mother country be carried on necessarily through the Saint Lawrence, and through Lower Canada? — Of course they cannot trade with the mother country through the United States. Can that commerce be regulated with a due reference to the interest of the Upper Province, if the whole of the legislative control over it is in tli hands of the Government of the Lower Province ? — That is not the case now ; tiiere has been no such legislative control since the year 1822 ; there was the Canada Trade Act passed then, which took it out of the control of the Legislature of Lower Canada ; and I believe that there have been no complaints upon the subject since tliat time. Do not the inhabitants of Lower Canat'e complain that the provisions of the Canada Trade Act are a breach of the covenant entered into with them respecting duties, and that they deprive the Legislative Assembly of a part of the power inherent in itself of imposing duties in Lo.ver Canada? — Thry did complain very loudly of the renewal of some temporary provincial Acts, levying duties by an Act of the Legislature of this country, they conceived that ii" it was not abso- lutely taxing the colony it came very close to it ; but still there has been no formal remonstrance on the subject, because they were doubtful whether this country could not claim some power of the kind, from the circumstance of its being necessary to regulate a difference between the two provinces which they could not regulate themselves ; that made them rather doubtful of the grounds of com- f)laint, otherwise you would have heard complaints more than ever you have leard yet from Lower Canada. Are the Committee to conclude from your statement that the commercial interests of Upper Canada require such a regulation of the duties in Lower Canada as amounts in reality to an invasion of the privileges which Lower Canada claims? — No, I think you have been very kind to us, you have divested us of a great deal of trouble, for we are not any longer to be considered as having the power of passing any logulations affecting trade, that is done by an Act here ; there can be no quarrel then between Upper Canada and Lower Canada upon the subject of regulations of trade Do you consider all duties of customs as regulations of trade ? — They all amount to that, and we have no diities of customs, except duties that are com- bined in some measure in the Act for regulating duties of Customs generally. Setting aside any object as to the regulation of trade, do you suppose that the Parliament here could iuipose a duty of customs in Lower Canada, solely for the purpose of augmenting the revenue? —Certainly not; we hold this, that you arc to impose no duties excepting for the regulation of trade, and it is not to be expected that any legislative body will use that power for any other purpose ; we expect that they will be bond Jiik duties for the regulation of trade, and we understand that the proceeds of those duties, whatever they may be, are to be disposed of by the Provincial Legislature. With respect to levying duties on goods passing between Upper and Lower Canada, in point of fact. Upper Canada does at present raise duties upon importations from the United States, which is a frontier of 700 miles ; if they were desirous of raising a duty upon impor- tations into Upper Canada, and if it were not t'lought to interfere with the general power of this country in respect of regulating the trade, they could have no difficulty in levying duties upon goods passing from Lower Canada to Upper Canada, since they do levy duties on goods passing from the United States into Upper Canada. The only means of access into Upper Canada from Lower Canada are the lliver St. Laurence and the lliverOttava, they might very easily levy duties tlnrc, and I think that probably after the next election, the Legislature of Upper Canada will ask to collect its own duties. In what way would it be pos.sible for Upper Canada to collect its own duties ? — It could collect duties much more easily upon the Lower Canada frontier than ON THE CIVIL (JOVERNMENT OF CANADA. •25 than it collects duticb upon the United States frontier ; it would not be t :- twentieth part of the expense, for the whole extent of thj frontier between Upper and Lower Canada, which is not a wilderness, through which no trade can pass, cannot exceed 30 or 40 miles. Suppose the case of rum imported into Lower Canada, and that a merchant in Upper Canada wished to transport that rum into the Upper Province, under the arrangement you have suggested, namely, that Upper Canada should collect its own duties, would they not in that case be subject to a double duty ; must there not, in the first instance, be a duty paid for Lower Canada, and afterwards another duty paid for the Upper Province? — No, there ought to be a drawback. In the Constitutional Act there is an express power in this country to regulate those drawbacks ; they would be entitled to a drawback upon proof being given that the thing had been introduced into Upper Canada. Do you think it possible that an arrangement of this nature could he made, that all duties must necessarily be paid at the port of entry, but that instehd of Lower Canada giving a definite proportion of those duties to Upper Canada, Upper Canada should irnpose whatever duties she chooses upon her imports, receiving a drawback from the Lower Province of all duties that have been paid upon goods in their transport through the Lower Province ? — I have no doubt that such an arrangement could be made. Do you think it possible to enforce custom-house regulations upon the frontier lino? — If they are enforced upon a frontier of 600 or 700 miles, they may surely be enforced upon a frontier of 30 miles ; there could be no difficulty in collecting duties upon the Upper Canada frontier upon all goods of which the package would not have been broken ; I should conceive there would be a difficulty in collecting duties, or allowing a drawback upon any thing that had been broken. It would be easy to ascertain that the thing was in the state in which it had come into the custom-house in Quebec, in that case the drawback ought to be allowed the moment it was ascertained, but if that were not provided for, there would be a great deal of trick and roguery ; for instance, a tun of rum would be opened, and it would be watered, and two tuns made of it, and then the drawback would be allowed upon two tuns. Therefore it would be necessary to have it managed so that it wo\j|d be certain that the same description of goods that had passed in at Quebec went into Upper Canada. As at this moment every tun of rum that arrives at the Upper Province must pa'^s through the Lower Province, where is the security now ? — There is a great deal of roguery now ; but, in truth, the consumption of rum in Upper Canada has almost ceased ; they consume whisky of their own manufacture. I believe there is no complaint at all on the part of cither Upper or Lower Canada; they submit to the regulations that have been made. Wliat, in your opinion, would be the best mode of regulating it? — Suppose that in Upper Canada a merchant were to order things from England, they ought either, upon some certificate of an entry at the custom-house at Quebec, to go free to Upper Canada, or else Upper Canada ought to be allowed a drawback upon every article that has paid duty in Lower Canada, provided it is ascertained at the custom-house in Lower Canada that 6oHur duties lie upon ^ great variety of goods that cannot get beyond Lake Ontario, and of course the arbitrators having taken population as the basis, it is erroneous ; it is of no use that there should be 200,000 souls in Upper Canada, if only 100,000 consume the dutyable articles. The basis then of the adjudication is objected to? — The basis of the popula- tion certainly is erroneous, but Lower Canada did not object to the last adjust- ment, so far from it, they obtained in the House of Assembly a vote to pay the arbitrators. Would there be any objection to a distribution by the Imperial Parliament of the whole revenue collected at tlie ports of the Lower Provinces, made in proportion to the respective population ot the two provinces, taken at certain periodical intervals ? — Yes, there would. In your view, which mode do you tliink the best with reference to the interests of the two provinces, that which has been resorted to of dividing the population and the revenues collected in Lower Canada, and applying them to the purposes of Upper Canada, or that of establishing a system of separate custom-houses for Upper Canada, and establishing duties to be collected there, and to be drawn back from the receipts of Lower Canada? — I should think that, in as far as this country is concerned, the preferable mode would be, tliat of arbitration under the Canada Trade Act. I object to nothing in the Canada Trade Act except the revival of the duties. Upon the general principle, I should say, that the less this country has to do in legislative measures affecting the colonies, the better it is both for the colonies and this country. If it were to interfere frequently, it might be the occasion of misunderstanding, when no misunderstanding ought to exist. Does not the arrangement at present existing impose a great difficulty in the way of any increase bemg made in the taxation of Canada, if that should be found necessary? — It does; and there has been a representation on the subject to the Government here, upon an application by Mr. Gait, agent for the Canada Com- pany. There were certain resolutions passed in the House of Assembly, and this matter was mentioned in it. There was something submitted to Lord Goderich ; they took him as the arbitrator. Do you consider that the union of the two provinces would be a proper remedy for those difficulties? — It would not at all be consistent with the interests of the two provinces, nor would it satisfy either the one or the other. From your knowledge of Lower Canada, what do you conceive would be the feeling of that province with reference to a union? — It is clearly averse to it; both provinces are decidedly averse to it. What do you believe to be the feeling in Upper Canada with reference to the question?— Upper Canada I believe fo be clearly averse to it; fliey wi.sh not to be troubled v\ith us in the management ot' their iutciiial aliaiis. Tin: truth is, that I'r .•Si- ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 197 upon ^ that every portion of the population in America desire as much as possible to have the management of their internal affairs coi 'ined within narrow limits. In the United States, wherever a state was extensive, they have divided it into several states for the convenience of local management. They cut oH' the state of Maine from Ma.ssachu.setts ; they cut out two or three states in Virginia and in I'ensyN vania. The object of that country is rather to sub-divide states than to unite them. What do you tliink of any scheme for adding Montreal and the country between Montreal and Upper Canada to the Upper Province ? — I certainly should think that it would be very objectionable ; in the first place, it would be throwing the whole property of iou,ooo souls who hold property under one system of laws to be at once governed by another system of laws, which they understand nothing about, and concerning which they have extravagant notions; for I am confident that every system of law is good for a country when it has been long established. Do you imnj^ine that it would shock the feelings of the population of that part of the country very much ? — Certainly it would, very much indeed. Is it not rather an inference, from the answers you have given, that it would be desirable, if possible, that Lower Canada and Upper Canada should carry on their internal concerns separately, but that there should be some principle of union between them upon such points, and such points only us are common to both ; as, for example, the revenue necessary to be received at the ports within the Lower Province? — I conceive that the thing as it stands at present will work very well ; those two provinces, and the other British provinces in America, ought to stand in the same relation to the Ciovernment of this country in which the difl'erent states of the American Union stand to the general American Go- vernment. The seat of the British Government is here, and the seat of the general Government of the United States is at Washington ; the Provincial Legislatures may very well do all that is done by their state Governments, and the British Government may do all that is done by their Congress, and the whole thing may work together for their mutual benefit by union and good feeling. l)o you not think that the two colonies have the same interests in many respects, particularly with regard Co improving the roads and water communications? — Yes, and on that point they will act together with the greatest cordiality. Both the provinces have an intimate interest in improving the water communication by the Saint Lawrence ; because, what makes property valuable at Quebec, and the trade thrive there, except the trade up and down the river ? and what is more beneficial to Upper Canada than to get the articles which go to them up the river, cheap, or brought down to market at a moderate price ? They have therefore both an interest in improving the internal communications. That operates so much with ua, that although we did not know much about the Wetland Canal, but merely saw that it would open a better intercourse to the Saint Lawrence for a great extent of rountry, that the House of Assembly, at that time consisting of eight out of ten of French Canadians, voted a sum of '25,000/. to take shares in that canal. When you stated that you thought that the relationship between the colonies of North America and of this country was much the same with reference to points of general government, as that which exists between the different states of America and their centre of government, you must be aware that there are several material differences that must be taken into consideration ; how would you propose to supply the want of representation in this country ? — We never have complained on that head, nor can we think of having a representation here. Would not you require that the colonics should have some representation in this country ? — We have asked for an agent to represent the interests of the colony, particularly at times when there may be a difference of opinion between the executive and the representative branches ; for we are not much afraid of any thing wrong going on here, if we can have an opportunity of being heard. You think that an agent appointed by the Colonial Legislature would be a sufficient representation for the colonies in this country ? — I think that there would be no danger of any mischief being done, if there was some person here so as to enubl'jall parties to be heard ; there > no ojjposition of interest between the colony and the mother country ; it is an iv' /antage to us to be connected with an old rich anil powerful country, and it is iin advantage to this country to have colonies that are subject to her regulations of trade, and where she can get things independently 5()y. Q 4 of John JVm'Iim, 5 June 1898. liS MINUTES OF EVIUENCK BEl'OltE SELECT COMMITTEE Join S'tdton, Etq. i Junt i8s8. of other countries. The only thing that cun ever place them at all in uppoHition, i« the not being understood to one another, and partieularly the touchiness of all colonies; they are like all children, more touchy than their liilhers. Then you think that the most desirable expedient to overcome the difticultics would be to have an ogent resident in this country, on the part of each colony r — Yes ; and I would think that all parties should have a fair thancc of being heard here; that is to say, that the Legislative Council should either agree in appointing the same agent with the Assembly, or should have one of their own. Would you not think it desirable, if possible, that the same agent should bo appointed by the Legislative Council and the Assembly r— If they could agree upon the same agent. Does not the absence of all power, on the part of the Britisii Parliament, to levy taxes, except fcfr the purpose of the regulation of trade, put the liritish Parliament entirely on u diHerent footing, with regard to the colonies, from that on which the Congress stands with regard to the American states r— There is a material difference there. Is not that difference so great as to involve the necessity either of changing tiie relation in which the (iovernnient stands in relation to the Canadus, or of making it mipossible to carry the arrangement into etlect which you have sujigested ? — I conceive that there is certainly a marked point of ditterence in the connection arising from the limitation which this Legislature has nut upon itself, of not imposing taxes for the purpose of a revenue in the colonies. The Congress of the United States does impose taxes for t'.ic purpose of a revenue ; and it may impose internal taxes even. Its power of taxation is general throughout the whole limits of the United States ; in point of fact, however, it has goiK; no further in exercising it than the power ot regulating trade, because nearly all its revenues are derived from duties on importations. John Nrilton, £"!■ 7 Juac iSsS. Hab/jati, 7* die Junii, 1828. John Neilsvti, Evquiic, again called in ; uiui Exaiiiiiicd. DID not the proposition of the Union, wliich was brought for»ar(l in tlie Jhiiish P"liaincnt in 1822, excite a very strong feeling among the Lower Canadians ? - J. What was the impression in Lower Canada, as to the induconicnl that the Government were under to bring forward that (juestion of the union, who were supposed to be the parties applying for it? — It was supposed to be tiie Provincial Government of Lower Canada, or rather ilie jwrsons forming the Executive of lower Canada. Was it su|)posed that an)' persons in this country connected wilii wiiat is cnllcd the English interest in Lower Canada, made an a|)plication of that sort ? — It cer- tainly was supposed thai the wiiole thing was got up Ironi Lower Canada, they could not suppose that tiie Parliament or the Government of tiiis country would take up a matter of that kind without it had come, in the fust instance, trom the authorities of Lower Canada, or from some person in Lower Canada, in cor- respondence with the Government iiere ; that was the universal impression. If there had been more deiinite provisions in that Act of Union for the preserva- tion of the French laws and institutions, do you think it would have been less unpopular ? — The tiling would have been unpopular at any rate ; it was generally unpopular among the English part of Lower Canada ; it w as considered a very unfair tiling by them; even those that were in favour of the unjor were against the bill. How do you account for the expressions tliat were used in tlie next year, ex|)res- sive of so much gratitude and satisfaction?— Those are expressions of form very frequently, but the petitioners in favour of it were not satisfied with the bill as it stood, there were several tliot wanted the union, but I never heard one profess himself altogcttier friendly to the bill. If those parlies w ho, in their petition, expressed so much gratitude, were against the details of the measure, to what particular jiart did they object- — I liave heard it mentioned among some gentlemen that were friendly to the u\iion of tin: pro- vinces, that the share of the representation was unfair, that it eucroachi'd upon popular I 'II ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 139 popular privileges in some instances, timt it introduced extraordinary clauses wiih .rohn SeiUon, respect to placing executive oHicers in the representative assemblies without election ^1- by the |)Cople, and mutters of lliat kind; in fact all the petitions from Upper ' -^ ' Canada in favour of the union expressed themselves dissatisfied with those pro- ' '''"'• '*•'• visions ; the petitioners in Lower Canada, generally, were unfavourable to some of the provisions, but many of them were friendly to a union, expecting that the Uritish Parliament would bring in a bill that would be better suited to the purpose than the one that had come out to Cunuda ; that was the feeling of those who petitioned in favour of it. The feeling uf those that petitione sentations to that effect. Have you any reason to believe that they have changed their opinion since that time upon that subject? — I cannot say ; but I know that they have sent forward no complaint upon the subject of the division of duties since that time ; as to the collection of the duties on the frontier, I have already had the honour to state that I could not say positively whether they would find it practicable ; but my opinion was that it was practicable to a certain extent ; tImt they have collected duties upon a frontier of 600 or 700 miles ; and I should suppose from that, that they could collect some duties upon a frontier of 30 miles ; that a new election was going on in Upper Canada in this year ; and tliat the people there would no doubt be able to say what they could do, or what they could not do. Are not the Committee correct in understanding you to have stated to the Committre that no objection exists to the principle of arbitration, as regulating the proportion of the duties necessarily levied in Lower Canada, which ought to bu applied for the civil government of'^ the Upper Province? — I have stated that, as far as my opinion went, I did not object to any part of the measures adopted in this country to terminate the differences between the two provinces, excepting that which went to renew the temporary provincial Acts levying duties, which I conceive to be very nearly approaching to taxation, and consequently rather infringing upon the declarations of this country. You arc aware that however anomalous the iniroduction of those clauses might have been into tlie bill of i8j3, the ol)ject of their introduction was to prevent tiie Government of Upper Canada being deprived of the means of iicing carried on in consequence of the cessation of revenue in the Lower Province? — We never had any doubt as to the intentions of the Government licre, or of Parliament, with respect to that bill ; we have always conceived that it was intended to relieve Upper Canada from her dependence on Lower Canada ; but the bill was received with a great deal of dissatisfaction on account of one circumstance. We had no opportunity of having any person here to represent Lower Canada, though they had a person to represent Upper Canada. The question refers to the practical point of the necessity of continuing those duties ? — With respect to the continuing those duties, I state what I have stated elsewhere, that I conceive it to be very dangerous as a precedent, and rather infringing u|)on w hat I conceive to be the constitutional rights of the colonies ; but, in point of fact, we ourselves would have been obliged to continue those duties, had they not been continued here. Part of them were refused to be renewed in 1821 or 18a .2, becHUse there was in fact no want of the money. The Government at that time used to tell us, " we do nut want any money from you ; England will " pny the Civil List itself if you do not pay it, as we require it." That wns the language of the gentlemen acting in the House of Assembly on the part of the Government. When they proposed to continue the bill of 18a i or 1822, it was 569. II referred ■^- Jtlm NtiUoH, 7 JaM t8t8. 130 MINUTRS OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE rcferreive any profit by smuggling will come in ; all the custom-house oftirers in the world could not prevent people, living as neighbours and friends, relations, brothers and sisters, people who visit one another almost every evening, from bringing in any thing that will enable them to make a profit, or exchanging articles for mutual convenience. Then there is another thing to be considered ; all over the world the Revenue Laws have been unpopular ; people have not considered offending against them in the light that it ought to be considered, as an immoral act, but they have voluntarily violated those laws, thinking that they did not commit a very immoral act ; they join in counte- 569. R J nancing John fftUitn, 7 Junt i8«8. •i 1 133 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jokn Sri'son, nuiicing tlic siiuigglcis instead of preventing them ; every one feels that he has got ^••'7 a kind of interest in gcttiui: a thuijj as cheap as possible, and he does not hesitate '• -i^ ' when be feels the workings of that niterest to violate the law ; therefore, you have 7 June iSaS. the people on both sides interested in some measure in this system of smuggling rnd unrrstricted intercourse ; and when the body of the people on each side the Kontier are interested in favour of it, how can you prevent it being done? There is something so consonant with the character of the people of America in this kind of trading wilh one another, independently of all regulations, that during the last war our army was supplied through the American army with the greatest part of its provisions. Under these circumstances, I would submit whether it is practi- cable on such a frontier to prcver.t smuggling if there is any thing to be made by it, and if there is nothing to be made by it, what is the use of the laws and regula- tions? If a system of custom-houses were established along the frontiers, it would ultimately make the people on both frontiers hostile to the British Government, for the acts of the oflicers of the Government are too commonly ascribed to thu Government, aiul particularly in America; if any thing is done it is in the name of the British Government, and if they quarrel with the officers they are quarrelling in some measure with the Government, so that in reality this kind of nuisance that the people will suffer in coi.sequence of all those custom-house oflScers collecting a revenue, which will be no revenue, upon the frontiers, will dissatisfy the people with tbn British Government, and consequently, being dissatisfied in that way, both the Americans on their side and our own people on ours, we will run the risk of being overwhelmed, as I said before. How do the American states regulate the intercourse between Canada and their territory ? — There is hardly any regulation or difficulty to the intercourse. I came through that way ; I brought all that was necessary with me to this country, books and papers, and other things ; when I came to the first custom-house, a gentleman came in to the inn where I stopped and told me that he was a custom-house officer, if I would be so good as to report what I had brought. I told him what I had brought, and he wisiied me good dny and a pleasant journey : that was the whole ceremony ; there was nothing to pay ; but with u? they make them pay for every little thing, permits, and soon. Is there any transport of valuable goods of any kind from Canada to the United States? — There is a trade going on of some kind, but it does not appear much, by the custom-house reports, on either side. If the United States of America are able to supply Canada with such manufac- tured articles as it requires, do you think that it will supersede the trade with Great Britain ? —It would, no doubt ; and it is for that reason that I think it is extremely dangerous for this country to allow too great a latitude to the Colonial Logis'- latures to lay duties upon articles to be imported by Quebec, because that augments the price of those articles, and diminishes the inducement for their consumption. It is easy to collect duties at the port of Quebec, but they cannot be collected with equal certainty along the frontiers ; this has a tendency to make the ('olonial Legis- latures lay them on heavily at the port of Quebec, and thereby shut out the British trade, which must come in at that port. The duties there give a bounty as it were upon a clandestine importation on the other side : now it is a matter of fact that the manufactures of the United States have been selling at Montreal ; coarse cotton manufactures fit for the wear of labouring people. It is to be observed that the great mass of the people in these countries are labouring people. The wealthiest of tliem often wear the manufactures of their own family, made up in their own family. Is it within your knowledge, to take one example, that previously to the opening of the tea trade direct with Quebec, the price of tea was lower in the Upper Province than it was in the Lower ? — Certainly it was. Can tliat be attributed to any thing else than to the constant practice of smug- gling from the United States? — Tlie United States supplied all the parts lyelow Quebec with tea, and many other tilings of value. It is utterly impossible to prevent smuggling in .Xnierica; the only way is not to give an inducement to it. (y'un you stale the pro|iortioii of tea wliich "O-s b'ouglit in from tlie United States, and of that which w.ns brought in at Quebec ? — We have no mode of Judging of it except by the diminution in our impurtatiuns. We found that ii>? importation Irom England was diminishing every year, and some persons said that it was a cessation oi the consumption of tea, which was a very unlikely thing; at last the truth cuinc out that it was the tea iom the United States that was coming iulo cumpctitiuii. Are ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »33 Ar« Are not tlie manufactured articles chiefly consumed in the Canadas generally of a coarse description, which do not so well bear the cost of transport ?— Of course. Do jou conceive it probable that the United States must necessarily soon supply the great bulk of those articles? — The only preventive of that is getting into those countries articles of liritish manufacture as cheap as possible, and conse- quently keeping the duties and other expenses as low as possible upon the introduction of them. Wiiat description of goods, besides the coarse cotton goods you describe, are snuigglcd into the Canadas from the United States? — Silks, and all East India goods ; bat Mr. Cuvillicr, who is here, can give better information upon that, because he has been long engaged in trade, and I am not. Uiuler the stiitcment you make, of the im|)ossibility of preventing smuggling from tlie United States, is it not more convenient that the revenue that may be necessary for the purposes of Government in those provinces should be derived from internal taxation ratlier tlinn from import duties? — You will have a very badly supplied Government if you depend upon internal taxation for it. I have stated that the ptesent reven-jc is about equal to the expenses ; I have no doul)t that if necessity existed we «ould find the means of raising more money ; we might raise money by licenses and things of that kind. If it were necessary there is no danger that they will find means of raising enough for the real wants of the country; but it would be desirable tiiat the country should have the means, under proper account- ability, of extending its improvements ; it ought to run a race with the adjoining countries, or else it will not only be laughed at, but be ruineo. Do not you conceive that the same difficulties which you say would arise from any attempt to prevent smuggling between the United States and the Canadas, would in a great measure apply equally to any attempt to establish a separate scale of duties in the Upper and Lower Provinces? — There is no doubt that it would ; but the line is not very extensive, and goods could enter only by the two rivers ; the safest place is no doubt the Port of Quebec. Is tliere any quaiificution for members that sit in the Legislative Assembly ? — No qualification. Is tliere any qualification for members that sit in the Legislative Council? — Xo qualification. In your opinion would it be desirable to introduce a qualification? — The incon- veniences iiave arisen from the exercise of the prerogative with respect to the legislative Council; tlie King by the Constitutional Act has the right of naming them. What would be the effect of limiting the prerogative, by a regulation that no j»erson should be nominated unless he wos possessed of land to a certain extent? — If you could imve an independent Legislative Council, you would have something like a Hritisli Constitution, and tlie affairs of the country would go on. In tliat case there would l)e a body that would have a weight in the opinion of the covmtry wiien the Governor and the Assembly were at variance, and on which ever side they declared they would incKne the balance ; if they were independent men con- nected with the country, it would be impossible to resist the declaration of the Council, consisting of respectable and intelligent men, in any dispute between the Governor and the Assembly ; but under present circumstances every one supposes that the Council decide always just as the Governor pleases, and they have no weight. Have you ever turned in your mind any plan by which you conceive the legislative Council might be better composed in Lower Canada?— I am willing to say what I would suggest, but it must be contiidered as entirely my own indi- vidual suggestion, and not tlie suggestion of the petitioners There are two inodes in which the composition of the legislative Council might be bettered, the one which, I believe, the majority of the people in Lower Canada have in view, is by the exercise of the prerogative apiiointing men who are independent of the execu- tive, and in fact who arc able to live by their own means. That has appeared to us to be the most consistent with the constitution under which we live. If that were found to be impracticable, the other mode would be to make tlie Legis- lative Council elective, by electors of a higher qualification, and fixing a qualifi- cation in proficrty for the persons that might sit in the Council. I should conceive that the latter mode would be safe enough for liU parties ; still it seems to be a deviation from tiic constitution under which we live. 569. II J You John Neilton, a,. 7 June 1898. 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE h "ill ^i JoHnNHUm, You conceive, then, that the fault of the Legislative Council is not in the Etq- original constitution of the body, but in the manner in which the clioicc of coun- ^ ^ sellurs has been exercised ? — Certainly; that inny, perhaps, be unavoidable ; be- 7 June i8«8. cause it is impossible that the Government here should see in the colony, excepting by the means of the people that are in the colony, they must take the recom- mendations that are sent from the colony, and if they are men that are not inde- pendent, and not suited altogether to act an independent part in the Council, of course they must appoint them notwithstanding, for they do not know that it is otherwise. When you say that those alterations ^ould improve the constitution of the Legislative Council, do you use the word, ' Improve', in this sense, that they would constitute a body which would agree with the lower House in their views, instead of sffreeing with the Governor, as it nnw does, in his views? — I should suppose that It would be compelled to agree with neither one nor the other. At present we suppose that it is absolutely compelled to agree with the Governor. Then it would be an independent body, that would keep the balance between the two, and give a certain stability to the existing laws and institutions. bo you conceive that if there were some qualification required from the members of the Legislative Council, that the province would still feel satisfied to allow the nomination of the Legislative Council to remain with the Crown ? — The general feeling of the people has not been in favour of alteration, but rather a feeling of satisfaction with the usual rights exercised by the Crown in those matters. It never was imagined, by us at least, that the Legislative Council was to be other- wise than a body originating in some measure from the Crown. Are you of opinion that any class of executive officers should be excluded by law from being members of the Legislative Council ? — Yes, certainly. Will you specify them ? — I should say, that in that country the judges ought to be excluded from the Legislative Council ; for it unavoidably mixes them up with politics, and they become, instead of judges, in some measure, political partisans. Do you think that should apply equally to the chief justice ? — li the chief justice is to be every thing as he is at present, a member of the Legislative Council, chairman of the Executive Council, presiding in the Court of Appeals, and taking an active part in all the public business of the province, he must be almost inca- pable of avoiding, when he is upon the bench, feeling a certain bias : it is believed too that such a bias exists ; fur instance, when a prosecution is advised, it must be sanctioned in the council in order to allow the expenses, the Executive Coimcil has of course advised the prosecution, and the chief justice is the judge to sit on the bench and try it, and he is in danger of being biassed. In truth, people do con- ceive that there is a bias at present in matters where the Crown is concerned. If the chief justice did not belong to the Executive Council, do you think there would be any objection to his belonging to the Legislative Council? — If the chief justice, or any judge, were not to be active politicians, there would be no harm in their being any where ; but the society being small, they become active politicians. Is not it by being Executive Councillors that they get mixed up with politico ?■— Yes, that is the great evil of their being Legislative Councillors, but in the Legis- lative Council, in the passing of bills, they take un active part; they are for or opposed to the bill, und it has been frequently found that they interpret in their courts according to the interpretation in the Council. Is the chief justice er officio cimirnmn ot tlic Executive Council ? — No, the Constitutional .\ct says, that the govcrnc ' shall appoint the chairman. Is there any other class of executive officers thut you would be desirous of ex- cluding from the Lei^islutive Council ? — I do not see that there can be any objection that there should l)c executive olHcers in tiic Legislative Council, provided tiicrc is not a majority of them. Then, in addition to the objections arising from the nature of the offices, you would put a limit upon the number ? — That the King can do at all times. M'^ould you think it desirable timt a provision of this sort should be made, that not above a certain proportion of tlic Legislative Council j'lould con.<e, in any change ihut is made in the institutions of that province, to meet what waking in the House of A- scmbly without voting ? — The thing would be very ex- traordinary, and the situation would be a most unpleasat t one to the gentlemen that ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. >3/ ifli'at would attend there ; they would not have the privileges of members, and they would be amongst people that would vicvy them with a kind of jealousy and suspicion. ^ Are you aware that that is the case in the French Constitution, that the French ministers attend and speuk, but do not vote ? — No ; we have rather looked to the British Constitution. Have you any papers to deliver in to the Committee ? — I will deliver in copies of several other bills that have been referred to in my evidence ; one is a Bill for va- cating the scats of Members of the Assembly in cases therein mentioned ; another is a Bill to remedy the improvident Grants of the Waste Lands of the Crown, and che other is a Bill to provide for the Trial of Impeachments in this Province. [The witness delivered in the same.] Dennis Benjamin Viger, Esq. called in ; and Examined. < ARE you a native of Lower Canada? — I am. Are you connected with the profession of the law ? — I am an advocate. In what court do you practise ?— In Montreal. I practise occasionally in the Court of Appeals at Quebec, but my residence is in Montreal. ' What number of public courts of justice are there in the province ? — We have a Court of King's Bench in the district of Quebec, and a Court of King's Bench in the district of Montreal ; then there are, besides, provincial courts in other dis- tricts : there is a provincial judge at Three Rivers, there is a provincial judge at Gasp<5, and another, a late establishment, at St. Francis. Is St. Francis within the townships ? — It is. Is the same code of laws administered in all of those courts? — We always understood it so till the Act of the 6th George 4, which was a declaratory Act by the Parliament of Enj,'land, deciding that the laws of England were the laws of the townships. I ought to add in answer to the former question, that in the dis- trict of Three Rivers two judges of the Court of King's Bench of Montreal, or of Quebec, go every term to Three Rivers to hold a Court of King's Bench, and then there arc three judges there ; two judges are a quorum ; but in case there should be a difference of opinion, there are generally three, and those two judges with the provincial judge, exercise all the powers of the Court of King's Bench, as they are established by the Provincial Statute of 1 793. Does the enumeration which you have given of the Courts of Justice include all that exJst within the province r — Yes, excepting quarter sessions of the peace, which are held in every district. Is the criminal law administered solely at the quarter-sessions of the peace ? — No ; there are criminal terms of the Court of King's Bench twice a year in the district of Montreal, and in the district of Quebec, and there are two criminal terms at Three Rivers, held by the chief justice either of Montreal or of Quebec, with the provincial judge and those who come from Montreal or Quebec. If I had known that I should be examined upon this point, I would have brought the law which w as passed in 1 793, which would explain the thing at once. Was that law a provincial law ? — Yes. It was the law by which the Courts of King's Bench and tlic quarter sessions have been established in Lower Canada, or at least put upon a better system. Is there any institution similar to the circuits in England ? — No. We have endeavoured to establish such a system in our country for these three years past. I framed a bill, it passed in our Lower House, but it was not passed by the Legisla- tive Cotr.icil. ^ly great object was to endeavour, with reference to constitutional principles, to cstablisli the Courts of King's Bencii in Canada upon the same footing that they arc in England, because I do not think that the administration of justice, particularly with regard to jury trials, can be administered well by any other .system, though 1 do not think it would be for the advantage of our country to change tlie la«R as they stand at present with respect to civil matters, yet as far as it is practicable I thought it advantageous to establish tiie courts nearly on tiie footing upon which they are in England, and to have circuits. After a good deal of division in the House oi' Assembly, it came to an almost unanimc s vote in favour of the bill. In what year was that? — Successively for the lat,t three years, the bill wa» /((iy. S brought John Neilton, Etq. 7 June i8a8. 7 June 1 88 8. 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BfZFORE SELECT COMMITTEE brought in in 1825, 1826 and 1827. I miU deliver in a copy of the bill which passed the House of Assembly, which is intituled, " A Bill to facilitate the Ad- ministration of Justice throughout the Province." [The witness deliviired in the same.'] Do you know tlie grounds upon which the Legislative Council rejected it ? — I was once in the Legislative Council when the bill was argued ; to my great surprise the judges in the Legislative Council were those that opposed that part of it which related to juries. It would take a great deal of time to explain their reasons ; they seemed to think that lb j people were not fond of those jury trials, and they conjectured so from the smail number of trials by jury which came before tiiem. I ought to mention that wc have only two species of civil actions which are to be determined by the verdi(;t of a jury ; commercial cases, and personal wrongs, that is cases of personal injury, such as defamation or assault ; but they perhaps were not aware that the tystem of juries, as it is established in civil matters in Canada, is the worst speoies of juries than can be imagined, for one plain reason. By the ordinance of 1785, it is established, tliat in civil cases in the districts of Montreal and Quebec, which contain about uine-tentha of the population of Lower Canada, the juries are to be taken from the city of Montreal for the dbtrict of Montreal, and from tlie city of Quebec for the district of Quebec, so that by tliat meanc you have only citizens of Montreal and Quebec to form juries for a population of about 450,000 souls, which is certainly not according to the constitutional p^'inciples of jury trials. They should be taken from the whole mass of the population, because there ought to be a common association of ideas between the parties and the juries. The reason why the people, generally speak- ing, are averse to have trials by jury is, first, that tliey are extremely expensive; and, in the second place, that they can never depend upon having jurors who have a common association of ideas with the people whom they try. In general, the great advantage of trial by jury is, that Uiey may form an opinion as to the criminality or innocence of the party, from the circumstances and from their know- ledge of the rank of the parties, their character in society, and their usages, and tliis advantage is lost in Canada, because, though those juries may be very respecta- ble and honest men, they do not understand sometimes even the language of the persons they are to try. I would say that there is not a jury trial in criminal matters in Canada, according to the laws of England, at least in Montreal, because I never saw any petit juries that were not taken from the city of Mon- treal. The citizens of Montreal, by, that practice, exercise a kind of power o£ life and death over a population of about very near 300,000 souls. I do not know upon wiiat tliat can be founded. I know that the law is against it ; the pre- cepts of the judges are to take the juries from the body of tlie district, from the jurisdiction of the sherilT, as it is in England ; yet singular to tell, they have never been taken except from the city of Montreal, and though we have complained, and there were some resolutions passed in our Assembly upon the subject, tiiis,^ which I consider a great abuse, is at this moment continually acted upon in our courts of justice. These circumstances may have given occasion to some pre> judices against juries generally. In my practice my clients have frequently ex- pressed a wish of having their causes tried by juries, provided they could be taken Irom the vicinage. What other objections were stated by the Legislative Council to the measure you proposed ? — 1 think they did not like the circuits. Was it your wish to apply juries to civil cases ? — I dp not like sudden changes in any case. I did not wish at that moment to extend jury trials further than the law gives it at present ; but I would have thought it desirable in a little time to extend it to other cases, where mere matters of fact are to be decided ; for example, where damages are to be given for n trespass, it seemed to me that those would be proper cases for a jury ; I should not think it desirable to introduce juries in matters of mere property, of mere title, of mere conventions. When this bill passed in the House of Assembly I did not wish to derange the system too much ; I only wanted to lay a foundation for the administration of justice, civil and criminal, upon the constitutional principles of England, particularly to have circuits, to have a judge that would not be connected with the parties, that would go to the spot, and would there receive the verdicts of the juries. What ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »39 What number of judges are there in the existing courts? — There are four judges of the King's Bench at Quebec, and four judges at Montreal; one provincial judge at Three Uiters, one at Gasp^, and one at St. Francis. Can you state what proportion of those judges are of French extraction, and what of English ? — There is one at Quebec, one at Montreal, and the provincial judge of Three Rivers, wlio are of French extraction ; all the others are Americans, Scotchmen, Irishmen, and of the neighbouring provinces. What opportunity have the gentlemen of English extraction of becoming acquainted with the French law? — They generally study with a lawyer of the country. There is no college in Canada where the civil law is taught. I think that it would be very desirable that we should have a professor of civil law ; but we have had so many tilings to think of that we have not been able to establish it. When I speak ot the civil law, it is to be observed that though we speak very much of the couttime de Paris, and the ordinances of the King of France, it is but a small part of our law. The common law of Canada may be called the civil law, as it was interpreted, and as it was practised in the Parliament of Paris. Where the eoutume. de Paris, or the ordinances of the kings, are silent, then we take the fteneral principles of the civil law as the raison ecritc ; in this sense it may be ooked upon as the common law of Canada. You have stated that a part of the judges in the Court of King's Bench are in the habit of f;oing, on certain occasions, to Three Rivers, to hold a court there ; will you describe what the process is ? — At Three Rivers the provincial judge decides alone in cases under lo/. ; but in cases above lol. sterling two judges must sit in the court to form a quorum ; and for that reason, every term one of the judges of Quebec goes to Three Rivers, and one of the judges of Montreal goes there also. Is that practice confined to Three Rivers ; or does it extend to Gasp6 and St. Francis? — It is confined to Three Rivers; at Gasp6 and St. Francis the jurisdiction is limited ; at Gaspe, I think it is limited to lool.; and it is limited to 20/. at St. Francis. Would it, in your view, be desirable to extend the powers of the courts of Gaspe and St. Francis? — I cannot say so; I think it would be better to establish a system of circuits, at least for St. Francis. Is there any description of causes tried in those provincial courts ? — The court of King's Bench sits at Three Rivers for the whole district, including that of St. Francis, for all cases not within the jurisdiction of the judge of St. Francis ; and the same thing occurs at Quebec for Gasp6. The provincial judges alone have no criminal jurisdiction. — No. When the court of King's Bench sits at Three Rivers, whence are the juries drawn ? — I never was at Three Rivers at the sitting of the court ; but I understand that they are perhaps drawn upon a better plan, not only from the city, but from the vicinity. That is not the case at Montreal and Quebec; I speak of petit juries ; for some years grand juries have been partially taken from the body of the district. Is there any criminal jurisdiction at Gaspe, or at St. Francis ? — Except quarter sessions, none. Do the judges ever decide inconsistently with one another, some of them according to the French law, and some of them according to the English law ? — There have been sometimes mistakes committed by judges by borrowing too m"ch from the English law ; but generally speaking our judges are supposed to adhere to the principles of civil law as it exists in Canada. In how many places are quarter sessions held ? — In Montreal, Three Rivers, Quebec, St. Francis and Gasp<;. How many times in the year ? — Four times in the year. Has each court of quarter sessions a separate judge r — Those quarter sessions are held by the justices of the peace; but in Montreal, Quebec and Three Rivers, there are what are called chairmen of quarter sessions, who are paid; and a similar appointment has been made for Gasp6. The St. Francis judge presides at the quarter sessions there. What is the nature of the jurisdiction of those quarter sessions; is it civil and criminal ?— It is chiefly criminal ; but it extc.ids also to road matters and penal laws. . 569. Sa What D. B. Viger, Eig. 7 June l8a8. 140 MINUTESl OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. B. Vtgtr, ^-^ Eiq. 7 Juni: i8'i8. What description of persons are the justices of the peace? — If I were to speak according to the rules and laws of England, I should say that they siiould be taken from the class of proprietors ; however that has not been acted upon. We have passed a bill once or twice in the Assembly to qualify them nearly as ihey are in England ; tiiis bill has not been assented to by the Legislative Council. AVhat is the class of persons from whom the justices of the peace have been generally appointed ? — The greatest number are merchants or traders in the country, as well as in the cities. In the townships from what class of persons are they appointed ? — I am not acquainted well enough with the townships to state that. In the townships the greatest number of the people are farmers ; and I know that a number of respectable farmers arc admitted into the commission. Have you not understood that there is a difficulty in finding individuals to fill the office of magistrate? — We have sometimes itnagincd that the choice was not always good, but the Governor exercised his prerogative; it is left by the I^mv to his judgment, and we have not interfered. Have the inhabitants in the townships any power of assessing themselves for the purpose of local improvements ? — There is no law to that effect in Lower Canada ; by the laws of Lower Canada every body is under the obligation of making his own road, and this is done generally by an order of tiie grand voyer, and then there is a distribution of the work, and payment of the money in the same way ; and there is a kind of assessment with regard to churches, tliere must be some previous arranirement, application must be made to the Governor, and then there arc commissioners appointed for the purpose;, then there is a kind of assessment by the parish, but there is no regular power for parishes to assess themselves by the laws of Canada for any purpose, except in the way that I have just mentioned. What proportion of tlie year do the Courts of King's Bench sit in Quebec and Montreal ? — Four terms of twenty days each for civil causes, and two terms of ten days each for criminal jurisdiction, besides terms for civil jurisdiction under lo/. sterling. In what way arc the proceedings conducted; are there pleadings in writing ?- Pleadings are in writing in the superior court, not in the inferior court; in the court under ten pounds there arc no pleadings in writing, nnlef^s the judges order it in some intricate cases, but in all cases above ten pounds all the proceeding are generally in w riting. You mentioned that at (Quebec and Montreal there was a Court of King's Bench, consisting of four judges each ; is that subdivided into a superior and an inferior tribunal ? — Yes, one judge decides in cases under lo/., and in cases above lo/. there must be two judges. Generally four judges sit, but the quorum of the eourt is fixed at two in civil matters. Incases under lo/. are there any written pleadings? — There arc no written pleadings, except when the judge, thinking that it is an intricate case, orders plead- ings to be in writing. Are witnesses examined in court? — Viva voce in cases under lo/., and in cases above lo/. their testimony is generally written ; however, sometimes they dispense with writing the testimony in cases under 20/., because there is no appeal from the Court of Kings Bench in such cases. When the Court of King's Bench dispenses with written pleadings in cases under 20/., do they examine witnesses vivA voce} — Yes, they take a note of it as they do in England. When tlicy resort to written pleadings, before whom are the witnesses exa- mined ? — In the presence of t« o of the judges, and it is one of the evils which were intended to be remedied in this bill, by giving a power to the judges to appoint commissioners to take this evidence in the country, because it is an enor- mous expense ; sometimes witnesses come a distance of 90 miles, sometimes they are obliged io come several times, and it was intended to give power of appointing commissioners to examine them in the country. Are the arguments of the counsel I'jwi voce?— They are. Even in the superior court ? — In both courts. Are there many appeals from the superior court to the Court of Appeal ? — I could not exactly tell the number, but I know there is a pretty large proportion. How is the Court of Appeals constituted ? — The Court of Appeals is neither more ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Ml k n e II more nor less than tlic Executive Council of the province; every member of the Executive Council is ipso facto a member of the Court of Appeals. Is the expense of laHsuits considerable? — They are very expensive. Have you ever turned your mind to consider any mode by which that expense might be lessened ? — I have thought of it, but I saw tliat there was very little remedy, because our courts arc vested with the power of making tariti'a of fees by a law of 1801, and wc supposed that it would not be a very easy matter to abridge that power. Are the fees large ? — We considered them large in our country, in proportion to the quantity of circulating medium, and in proportion to the price of every thing. To whom ilo those fees go? — A part of the fees go to the clerks of the court, the lawyers, sheriffs and bailiffs. Are they paid into a fund out of which the salaries of those persons are paid? — Not at all. The judges are paid out of the public funds of the province ; there are no fees to judges m Canada, except in the Admiralty Court, which have been a great subject of complaint there. Is there much distinction in the mode in which you bring an action, according to whether the subject of it relates to real property, or whether it relates to moveables ? — By the laws of Canada every man that brings an action must explain the grounds upon which he claims either real property or goods, nr u sum of money ; he must make the person whom he prosecutes know the title upon which he claims, and draw precise conclusions as to the amount, and as to the nature of the things he claims, and if he fails in any way to ask what he wants to obtain, the judge by the laws of the country can never give him any more; and that this is the difference, perhaps, between the nature of tiie proceedings in Canada and this country. In England there are particular forms of actions, and a general conclusion is taken ; whereas the judge, being both judge and jury in Canada, can never give any thing but what is asked precisely by the plaintiff, and then the defendant must give in the grounds of his plea. , Is the plaintiti' afterwards enabled to amend his declaration? — He must obtain a permission from the judge. In some cases, that is given if it is only an adden- dum to the action, but he cannot change the nature of his action. But whether the action relates to real or to moveable property, the mode of bringing it is the same? — Yes, in England there are special forms of action, we arc not restricted to a precise form of action ; but with regard to real property, for example, there is a mode of action, which is established by usage and accord- ing to the principles of law, which is such that if you were not to take that form of action you could not succeed. It is necessary to establish a certain number of principles and facts, and then to draw the conclusion from those prin- ciples, and from that results the necessity of adhering to certain forms, though we are not nominally restricted to forms. Does the King's Bench act both as a court of equity and as a court of law ? — By the laws of Canada there are cases where they have no right at all to exercise any equitable jurisdiction ; that is, so far as the law is written they must obey that law ; but there are a great nu:!iber of cases where the law itself gives them a certain equitable jurisdiction. Of course in those cases they exercise an equitable juris- diction ; and besides the civil law being, as I said, the written reason which guides the judges in all cases where there is not a precise enactment, they have, generally speaking, fixed rules of equity by w hich they can be guided very easily. Does the court deliver its judgment vied voce} — Yes, and they generally assign tlieir reasons vivii voce, but they d,< not generally enter them in the »vritten judg- ment upon the register. As they are the judges of botii law and fact, I should think it would be very desirable if their reasons vrre stated in the written judgment. Upon the whole, is there satisfaction or dissatisfaction in the minds of the persons subject to the administration of the law, with regard to the mode in which it is administered ? — I could not say that there is a very great confidence in the administration of justice in Lower Canada ; and it arises from a great many reasons. Will you have the goodness to state some of those reasons ? — In Quebec the judges arc generally executive counsellors ; they are at the same time legislative counsellors, and they are generally supposed to have too much influence in the D. B. Vigtr, Klq. f Jun* igal> 569. S affairs 143 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. B. Vig*r, Eiq. 7 JuM I lag. It of as aft'atrs of the province, so timt tlieir decitions arc not alwnys supposed to be per- ^ fcctly inipartiul ; besides tlierc is such u contradiction in tiie jud^e being in the morning ut court, in tlie afternoon at the Executive Council, and on the same day at the Legislative Council, making thv luws, ordering their execution, and tluii judging u|)on those very laws, that it is iin|)OS8ible, at least as we bup|)Osc, that those men can be exactly judges, and judges alone. Pcrhups in u country like this the aanie inconvenience may not arise from the judj^es exercising those ditl'erent capacities, because there is the check of public opinion, and the Houses of Par- liament are com|)06ed of an immense number ; but there the judges form a great proportion of the Executive Council and of the Legislative Council, and they are the persons of the greatest inHuencc in tlicni. Are the qualitications of the judges such as, in the opinion of the jieople of tlic province, to make them be looked up to us fit persons to administer the law } — I must state that there arc judges who are not considered as great jurisconsults. In tuncnding the administration of tlie law in Canada, should you tliink necessary that tliere should be some additional establishment in the nature circuits? — I really think that it would be essential to introduce circuits, as far it is practicable, upon the system on which tJiey are establislied in England. What arc the circumstances which you found to be obstacles to the introduction of the system as it exists in England ? — The only thing is, that the distribution of the courts could not be exactly as it is in England, by counties, on account of the distribution of the population, such as it exists in Canada. Could you cxplam generally the plan which you proposed to adopt for that pur- pose? — The object which the House of Assembly hud in view was to subdivide the large districts into circles which would comprise a reasonable proportion of the population in each, so that the judges might exercise their jurisdiction in each of those subdivisions. Had the divisions any reference to the counties? — It was impossible; and the reason is, that the divisions of the counties are liable to continual changes in a country where tlie population augments with rapidity. Upon what principle did you propose to divide the country anew for the pur- pose of circuits? — To make a subdivision according to the population ; tliat is, to fix the scats of the jurisdiction in those places where there was a population to which it could be useful. Was the arrangement ])roposed intended to be permanent ? — Things of this kind cannot be made permanent in a country like ours, because probably there are some of those divisions which it would be necessary to subdivide again as the population increased. Do you combine that with the other proposition you have mentioned, of exa- mining witnesses in the country ? — Exactly so ; it was proposed to liave the examination of witnesses taken in those very subdivisions by commissioners ; and I must say, that in this instance, us in a great many others, I did not tliink I was making the best law possible ; but my object was to make the best ttiat we could ander the circumstances. What number of circuits should you think necessary ? — The number is fixed in the bill : we thought that in the district of Quebec seven circles would have been sufficient besides Quebec, and in Montreal eight besides Montreal. Oo you understand that according to the Constitution of Canada the English civil law is to l)e administered with respect to property situate in the township, or witii respect to all property held in free and common soccage ? — A\'e always thought tiiat the French law prevailed in Lower Canada till Parliament passed the Act of the sixth year of His Majesty, with reference to tenures in the town- ships : our judges have acted upon this system. Sihce tiiat Act, I do not believe that there are means to bring actions according to the English law, with regard to real property in the townsiiips. Seeing that it is the intention of tiie Legislature tiiat English law should be administered with respect to all property held in free and common soccage ; what, in your opinion, would be the best urrungemcnt for giving cftect to that system of law? — I think that it is a very difficult thing, not to say impossible, to make the two systems go together in the courts, sucii as tliey arc established ; and I do not see how it could operate in Lower Canada, it \vould establish such a contradictory system, that it would bring every tiling into confusion. Would not that confusion be very materially prevented, by the establishment of — 5 different ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »4y ditferent coiirls, that is, by establisliing a new set of courts in which the law might be administered with reference to property situated in the townships, and retaining the courts which exist at present, in which the French law is administered? — I could give no opinion upon a tiling which is almost a mere theory; to speak of the eH'nct of establishing a new system of law in a country where it has never been in practice, would be reasoninj; upon mere supposition, upon which I am unable to answer ; 1 know 'hat the ditference of courts, and the difference of jurisdictions, and the dift'ercncc of laws, will necessarily produce confusion ; when it is established we must take things as they are, but m a country where it is not established we cannot say how it would operate. Seeing that it is the fixed purpose of the Legislature to carry into cflfect the establishment of English law with respect to the lands in the townships, do you think the attempt had better be made by administering it in the courts as they at present stand, or by any other mode ? — I do not know how that could be arranged at present. Can it be administered in the courts as they exist at present?— It would be very difficult ; perhaps it would be proper to state, that the actions as they are brought according to the rules of civil law, are very simple, and that the object can be attained as fully and as easily as u[>on any other system. I cannot imagine how it wuuhl be possible to establish in Canada courts in which the judge would determine one day according to the laws of England, and another day according to the law of Canada, it would throw the practice of the court into the greatest confusion ; we have already enough of confusion, which has been created by people sometimes cndeavourmg to take the rules of the law of England and to introduce them into our jurisprudence. Has the Canada Tenures Act been carried into operation at all in Canada ? — I do not know what operation it can have at present ; it has destroyed rights that have been in existence 30 or 40 years — minors rights, rights of women, sherilTs sales, hypothiques executed upon the lands ; all these have been swept away by the Act of the 6th of the King. Arc the Committee to conclude from what you have said, that the Canada Tenures Act has excited great discontent, and has been considered an unfortunate measure in the colony? — It has, certainly, in Lower Canada created the greatest discontent, particularly in what we call the Canadian population, because it destroyed at once the system which we considered to extend to the whole province, which'has been acted upon for 40 years, and ever since the conquest. People had acquired lands in that country by titles made according to the formalities of the French law, which are extremely simple, and operate very well without any diffi- culty, and against which there was never any complaint at all. Women had acquired rights of community, families had acquired rights according to the Cana- dian law of descent, creditors had lent money upon hypotheques, a species of mortgage we have in Canada, by which those lands were supposed to be affected ; and she riflTs sales of those lands have taken place in great numbers. Now if the declaratory law, which has been passed by the Parliament, is to take effect, all those rights are gone and destroyed, and all the sales which have taken place for ,"^0 or 40 years are null and void ; and in the second place, it has created a great discontent among the Canadians, because tiiey are acquainted with tiie Canadian laws of the transfier of property, which are extremely simple, and which are not expensive, and very easily to be acted upon by svery body ; but this Act of Parlia- ment establishes a system of transfer of propt ity, with which the inhabitants of Cnnada are perfectly unacquainted, and whiih has the disadvantage of being extremely costly. In Canada you can get an excellent title made, according to the Canadian law, for about from 5 s. to \os. and you are obliged to pay as many guineas according to the English law. I may state, in order to give an idea of the opinion of even an English lawyer upon our law of transfer of property, that I heard the late Chief Justice Mank, who was not very mucli prepossessed in favour of Canadian establishments, say on the Bench, ihat a common notary in Canada, after a couple of years practice, understood conveyancing better than the most able conveyancer in England. I could add many other reasons, but these are sufficient to give an idea of the sources of discontent with regard to this Act, and the more so, because by the Act of the 3 1st of George the 3d, our Constitutional Act, it wa» particularly enacted in the 43d section, that " Lands in Upper Canada were to be granted in free and common soccage (in like manner as in that part of Gireat 569. S 4 Britaia 7 June ilil. 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 7JHm ilal. Britain cnllrd RnKlnnd,) and when lands Rhall be hereafter granted within the suid province of Lower Cunadn, and when the grantor thereof nhall desire the same to he granted in free and common soccugc, thn same ithali he m granted, bnt suhjcct nevertheless to such alteration with respect to the nature uml consequence of such tenure in free and common soccagc us may be established by any law or laws which may be made by his Majesty, his iieirs or successors, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Council and Assembly of tiio Province." Now from this we understood, of course, that if there was .;ny alteration to be made it should be made by the Legislature of Lower Canada, wiiO would work upon the system according to the interest of the country, and who would of course know the circumstances of the country better thun those who are at a distance of 3,000 inile«i. I will show, in point of fact, how the thing has operated in Caniidn. After this Act had been passed in England, the very legislative Council, which is composed of executive counsellors who have the greatest influence there, and place- men who were sup|)08ed to have desired that the laws of England sliould be introduced, were the first to send to the Lower House a bill to introduce again our forms with regard to the transfer of property in thn townships, the law of hypol/i^f/ues, and some other rules taken from our own civil I >w. Do you hold that the law by which property held in free and common soccage should descend, supposing that the owner dies without a will, should be the \aw which prevails in the seigncuries, or the English law? — I am apt to think that it would be desirable that it should remain us it was betbrc the decluratoty Act passed, that is, that it should be divided equally, according to the laws of Canada. When you say that discontent has arisen amongst the Canadians with respect to the provisions of the Canada Tenures Act, are the Committee to understand that you mean that the |>crsons holding lands in the townships are discontented with tliose provisions, and that they wish the Canadian laws with respect to the descent of property to apply to them »s they do in the seigneurics ? — I am not acquainted with the sentiments of the majority of the inhabitants of the townships ; I can say tliat with regard to the Canadians they would wish, of course, to preserve their laws of descent. Is there anv thing in the Canada Tenures Act which has a tendency in any way to interfere with the laws of descent with respect to the land which is held by the Canadians in the seigneurics '. — It is very much the case indeed ; because by this very Act, if the tenure of any land in the seigncuries is changed by arrangement with tlic Government, that land would be regulated by the laws of England, so that one farm would be regulated by the laws of England and the next farm would be regulated by the laws of Canada ; and the Connnittec can judge what would be the consequence. As no change of tenure under that Act can be made excepting at tiic desire of the proprietor, have you any reason to imagine that any individual wishing that change to take place with regard to his own lands would be likely to complain of the alteration that would take place in consequence of it r — Yes ; a man that might wish to make a change in his tenure would not like that iiis land should be placed under a new system of law ; it would operate as an obstacle to making a change in the tenure. Supposing that no individual seeks to change the tenure of his land under tiiat Act, in what way does that Act aflect the seigncuries, so us to deprive them of that which they consider an advantage, namely, tlic Trench law r^Of course if there i* no change there can result no inconvenience, except so far as there would be a dif- ferent system in the courts of justice, whicii would create a great confusion in the ideas of the lawyers and judges. Is not the law of the (ilh of George 4, of this nature, that provided the Govern- ment, and tlie seigneur holding under the Government, change the system of hold- ing into free and common soccage, the seigneur can force his vassal to cinnge his tenure ? — No ; it is not a compulsory jKJwer, but there is something which is a great obstacle in that very Act, because if the seigneur were to change his title the culti- vators of the soil would have a right to ask from the seigneur to ciiungc their tenures too, and upon his refusal, to force him to submit to arbitration ; and this is an obstacle to the land being put in free and common eoccage, because there is no seigneur that would be disposed to accept a price for his dues, to be paid in money, that ivas not Axed by himself. Has ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, M5 he lilt ice or Lhc e." be )OII Has tlie law been acted upon at all in the ocigneiiries ? — I only know of two cases wlicre application has been made to Government for a change, and I think that the iirningemunt hiis nut bcun concluded. Arc there n great nunilicr of Cunadiuiis who reside in the townships? — A great inimbi^r in some townships, and there would be a much greater number if facility had been given for their settlementi MartU, 10° die Junii, 1828. 7 JUM I 111. of Detmix Benjamin yiger. Esquire, again called in ; and Ex' iiined. SUPPOSING a person possessed of a fee simple estato of rciil property in Lower Canada, to die intestate, leavin;; a family, what would be the course of descent? — We have, ucncrally speaking, only two species of property in Canada, that is,y(f or xeigiieunex, and folures, I)eside8_/rrt;/t' alai, free and common soccagc. With regard to the first, the .icigiieurici, the eldest son has a greater proportion than the other children in the case of real property ; in the successions to rolurei, every species of property is equally divided between tlie children. Supposing he leaves a widow, has site any interest either in the one or the other? — Uy the laws of our country husbands and wives are partners and joint proprietors of every species of personal pro|)erty whereof they are respectively possessed at the time of the marriage, or which may thereafter be acquired either by inheritance or otherwise ; but reol property, which comes to them by descent, or which is acquired before marriage, does not fall into that species of partnership, which is termed in our law communautL It is to be observed that the law is not imperative. A man who marries may by his contract of marriage renounce every such right, and then the wife has only what is stipulated in the contract of marriage. In the event of his dying intestate ;iiid the wife taking that half, upon her death what becomes of that half? — That piiit of what we call the commumuU, whicli lias once accrued to the wife by tiie death of the husband, goes in the hist place to her children, and in the second place, if there are no children, it goes to tier own relations, not to the relations of the husband. Is there any distinction in your laws between dower VinA commumuU} — Yes, u great dcol. Docs the dower apply to the real property, and the communautt: to the personal estate?-— Dower applies sometimes to real property, as well as to goods and chattels, but it depends upon particular circumstances ; the dower established by law is the right to the enjoyment on the part of the uifd of one half of the real |)ioperty of which the husband is possessed at the time of the niarriagc, and of such pro- perty as devolves to him by descent in the dirtct line from ancestors ; the property, or the right in the thing itself, belongs to the children; she has only the enjoyment of the property for her life, that is the dower which is granted by the coiUume; hut very often a dower is stipulated in the contract of marriage ; generally speaking, it is a sum of money, which is secured by hypot/U'tjue. Then, in jioint of fact, if a person dies intestate, leaving a property which has come to him, partly by descent and partly a property acquired during marriage, tiie wife would be entitled to her dower out of the one, and to her share in the cimintunaiiti in the other? — Exactly. Suppose he makes a will, what power has he over, first of all, the land which comes to him by descent, and secondly, that which is acquired during marriage ? — He has the right to dispose of all the property which belonjr," to him, whether by descent, or whether it is his part of the coinynunauti, and to bequeath it in any manner he pleases, subject nevertheless to the stipulation of the marriage contract. That is to say, if he has property which belonged to him previous to the mar- riage, he can bequeath the whole of it as he pleases ? — Yes. With respect to that which he acquired subsequently to the marriage, he can only dispose of one half of it? — Yes, as well as of that acquired to him by succes- sion. Any real property which comes to either man or wife by .succession they have respectively a right to dispose of; any sucli real property which conies by inheritance to the wife, or to the husband during the marriage, never enters into 5<5i). T ' the lu Junt iS'JH. D. B. Viger, Etq. iQ JUD« 1818. 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE the commuuauti, unless there is a particular stipulation to that effect in the contract of marriage ; of rourse either the man or the wife has a right to dispose 01 that by their will as they please. Supposing a person marries, and that during the existence of the marriage he makes a considerable fortune ; supposing further, that he has a child by the mar- riage, who dies in the lifetime of the father and mother ; then suppose the mother dies during the liletime of the husband, what becomes of her share in the commu- nauU ? — Her share goes to her own relations, except that there is hardly a contract of marriage in which there is not a stipulation that they shall, if there are no children of the marriage, enjoy the property during their life, to the exclusion of the relations of either party. But if no such contract exists, the law is as you state ? — The communauti is divided, and the half of it goes to the relations of either husband or wife. Supposing a person in |)ossession of an estate is anxious to sell it, what is the mode of his conveying it to the person who is to purchase it i — The contract is always passed accorduig to the laws of our country, before two notaries, or one notary, and two witnesses ; the forms of these contracts are known to every notary in Canada. If there are no particular circumstances which may require special stipulations, it is not necessary to travel out of those forms. Is it a very short deed r — Pretty short, it generally contains about three pages of common folio paper. Does it contain any recital of the former title, how it came to the person that sells? — It does ge erally ; though it is not essential to the form of the deed or its validity that it should be so ; there arc people that will sell a farm as belonging to them, without mentioning any thing else ; but, generally speaking, it is entered, not as matter of necessity, but as matter of convenience, and in order that the person may know the parties from whom the estate came. How does the purchaser satisfy himself that the person who sells has a good title to sell, and also that the estate is unenci'mbercd ? — That depends upon his prudence, and particularly upon the good advice that he receives either, from the notary himself or from a lawyer; for example, if you were to consult a gentleman in Canada about a purchase which you wanted to make, the lawyer would of course, before allowing the deed to be passed, require communication of the title of that property, would also require to know whether the vendor was married or not, whether there existed a dower upon that estate or not ; of course tiiis is very easy. I must besides observe, the laws of our country with regard to prescription are generally pretty simple ; ten years possession, with a good title, where the parties arc legally present in the province, are suflicicnt to operate prescription in favour of the buyer. Twenty years arc tiecessary to prescribe against absentees ; I must add, that a person must he of age, and capable of exercising his rigiits, for prescription to operate against him. Generally speaking, thirty years prescription is sufficient to cover some difficulties in a title m due form, whicii has no radical defect. A man could not acquire by prescription a farm, or any other real property, if his title was not a real bond Jiik sale ; if. for example, he hail been a tenant with a lease, he could not prescribe against his own title ; but if tiic title is good, generally speakip^, a prescription will operate in his favour after thirty years. Now the lawyer coiisidcring these circumstances, and perhaps some others, would easily find whether tiie man wlio sells can give a good title. Then how are you satisfied that a good title is produced, either for ten years or for twenty years, or for thirty years, us the case may be ? — It would depend upon particular circumstances ; you must examine whether there are absentees, and tliere are minors, or otiicr persons incapable of exercising tlieir rights ; all tills is very easy for a man of cx|ierici)ce, but it would be difficult to explain it to persons not exactly acquainted with tiie principles of our law ; all that I can state upon that subject is, that I have been a little more than thirty years in practice, and have given a good deal of advice upon questions of this sort. I do not think I ever had any conipluiiit by any persons of the insufficiency of their titles. It would lie necessary to siiy, that if theie is any fear of hyjto- thei/iu\s, the only means we iiave at present, and the only possible means, I think, in any good system, is to liave recourse to u decret (sheriff's sale), that would, to use a technical phrase, be sufficient to purge all charges except dower ; but with regard to dower, it is always easy to know whether there is a charge of dower, because you can know the person froui whom the property has come to the ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 147 ft ! the actual seller, or the person from whom his title is derived ; it is very easy to know whether they have been married or not, and to get the contract of marriage, to be satisfied as to the nature of the dower. Ail these things must be done of course by people who understand the laws of the land, they are very simple things ; but I m\ist confess that a stranger coming to Canada may be subjected to some little difficulties, as is the case in any other country. I have a particular knowledge that two or three years ago an accident happened to a stranger ; he bought a farm, and was told by some persons that there was a dower upon it, or some such encumbrance, though the person who spoke to him was not conversant in the law ; I think he was a common farmer ; he informed him of the risk he incurred in buying that ()roperty ; the buyer would not listen to him, he bought the farm, and he experienced what every imprudent man would in that case, he lost his property. Is not real property in Canada subject to all, what are in this country called, simple contract debts, of a person borrowing money ? — Every species of property, real or personal, may be seized and sold for the satisfaction of a judgment, what- ever may be the nature of the debt. What is the form in which a person in Canada in possession of real property borrows money ? — In order to secure to the creditor the right of hypotMqite, he generally constitutes that hypotldt/ue before notaries, by an act in which the amount of the money is specified, and that is sufficient to give him therlght to be paid out of the proceeds of the real estate, before any other who is not anterior to him in hypothcque : according to our maxim of law in this case, potior tempore potior jure, the person that has the first hypothique has the preference to the money which is raised by the (decrtt) sheriff's sale, and then in succession every hypothecary creditor. Supposing a person borrows a sum of money upon his bond, does that carry hypotlU-que'r — It does not, unless executed before a notary. Must it have reference to the estate ? — That is not necessary, provided it is passed before a notary, that carries by itself the right of hypothique. Then a person who sells an estate, wishing to deceive the purchaser, might keep back those hypothi-ques't — Yes j and tliat is the very reason why we have recourse to a sheriff's sale. Must not a great deal of inconvenience arise out of that system; that till there is a sheriff's sale a person might go on borrowing money without its being known to the parties from whom he borrows money whether his estate is subject to a prior encumbrance or not ; would not a registration put an end to a man borrowing money upon his estate more than his estate was worth ; could you say to the Committee why some regulations to that effect have not been adopted in Lower Canada? — This question embraces a great variety of subjects. I must say that I labour under great disadvantage in giving my evidence in English, a language which is not familiar to me ; it will be a matter of great difficulty to speak with that exactitude and technicality of expression which would be desirable. I will endeavour to sketch tiie situation and some of the circumstances of Lower Canada as may be connected with this subject. I remember, that some years ago there was a great deal said in Lower Canada about this matter; after examination it was found that the country in its actual situation did not admit of establishing a r-^gistration ; that was out of the question ; but what I should call a bureau xplai)ation with them upon that subject, and the nature of a dccret voloti' taire, and its effects, they agreed that that was all that was wanted, and that if it was possible to have a sheriff's sale with a little more facility they would be perfectly satisfied. A law was passed for that purpose, but 1 understand that tiic expense was very great, and that people have not been quite satisfied. The fact is, the regulating of the cost belongs to the courts of justice, and I do not know whether tlie complaints were well founded, or not. I stated that a man may have granted hypothcques which he may conceal, but I must observe, that by the laws of the country a man who conceals hypotliiques when he sells, or declares when he borrows money that the land which he hypothecates is per- fectly free, is liable to go to gaol after it is discovered that he has committed that species of fraud, till he has paid the damage suffered. I do not know upon what ground it has been supposed in Canada that this law was no more in force. Every day in the courts of justice we take execution against the body for the -jCg. T 2 satisfdction D. B. Vig^, Etq. 10 June 1898. i48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. B. Viger, Etq. 10 Juotf i8a8. !;!l satisfaction of penal damages under tlie old laws. I do not see that there could be any ditlcrence between the two ; however, it seems to be the opinion of the judges, as I have understood, that they could not grant an execiition against the body in the case of the species of fraud which I have just mentioned, which we call stellionat. By the laws of the country for every species of debt, when you have obtained a Judgment in a court of justice, you have a right to seize the property of your debtor, both real and personal, to seize every thing which belongs to him in the hands of third persons, and indeed you have every possible means of obtaining his property, whatever the nature of it may be. Besides, by a law which has been passed in 1785, the Legislature of the country for the time being has established in favour of merchants and traders tie right of taking the body of their debtor, though he be not a merchant, after seizing and selling every species of property which belongs to him, and to keep him there as long as he does not pay the debt. Before that time this right of taking tlie body was not allowed, except between merchants and merchants, and in some other cases. By an interpretation which has been given to that ordinance, which I do not pretend to justify, it has been understood that tiie cessio bonorum, whicli is a part of tlie law of Lower Canada, had been abolished by that ordinance of 1785. T would say, that before adopting any such law for the establishment of bureau', lish llie ces.sii) bonorum, and subdivide the country. 1 oiiiiht to observe besides, that fcr one deed which there is to register in a coiiiitrv like I'.iiglaiui, we June a thimsand that' would require to be regisieie.>ary, as I said, to subdivide the districts into smaller circles, that we might finally establish those bureaux dt consitr- vation d'hypotMqiies in the places where the courts would be held. Has there been any difficulty attending the registration ol' real property in the United States? — I cannot answer with regard to the United States. Does the law you have stated to apply to the communauti apply equally to persons who have been married in England and who have settled in Canada, and who had after they got to Canada realized property in Canada ; is it a case that often hap- pens? — ^'i'hat is a question of great difficulty, embracing a vast number of con- siderations even of public law. It has not, to my knowledge, been the subject of direct discussion ; yet in Canada, I know that some questions of this description were agitated with regard *u persons who had married in the United States. I set; very little difficulty with regard to a man who marries in the States, because, if I understand public law well, and it seems to me to be consistent witii the prin- ciples of sound policy, no foreigner has a right to avail himself of the laws of his own country with regard to matters of real property. The real property must be subject to '.the laws of tlie land. It would be very different with regard to an Englishman, because being subject to the same empire, we would be inclined to suppose that he must have reciprocal rights. My reason for saying so is, that it was admitted as a principle of general equity and public law in France, that when a man living under a particular coutume married, that coutume was the law which was to regulate his property ; he was supposed to contract his marriage with the intention that the eft'ects of his marriage would apply to his property according to tiie law of the land where he had made the contract;. Now if this principle was adopted in Canada, wn i~ <;ht suppose that an Englishman who married with the intention that all the property which he acquired in our part of the empire would be regulated according to the laws of the country in which he confacted the marriage, and we might further suppose, that this privilege might be claimed reciprocally in different parts of the empire. Do your observations apply equally to tiie two sorts of real property you have described to e>;ist in Canada, except so far as you said they differed ? — ^ os. Has tlie effect of the law of descent been to divide the property into a great number of small divisions? — !t has in some cases; but 1 am just going to make here an observation wliich has been made by Baron de Stacl in his late Letters in England upon this very subject. If 1 remember well, he says, that in Fnuice, in spite of tlic law as it is, by which an equal division takes place among the children, it seems that property has a tendency rather to accumulate. Since some years in Canada, I have noticeil thai tlie same sub-divisions of real property have not taken place that did formerly. First, peoi)le make wills, and very often prevent divisions taking place. Farmers, particularly, generally divide their real property during their lifetime ; if they have many farms they give a farm to each of their children ; if only one, ihey generally choose one of the children to whom this property is given ; that seems to be about the general practice at present in Canada. Where a seigneury descends according to your law, does it not multiply superiors to the vassal ? — It has, in some cases ; but of late years the divisions of seigneurics estates has decreased almost in the same proportion as the divisions of other estates, as mentioned in my last answer. Then, in point of fact, the vassal may, under your law, be obliged to bold under many superiors r — The Committee are perhaps not aware that what is called feudal law in Canada has no precise analogy with what is called feudal law on this side of the Atlantic. In Canada tiic land is conceded to the farmer generally for a very small annual rent, the farmer pays this annual rent, and there is an end of all duties to his seigneur, this is in the nature of a (juit-rent. Generally speaking, the only obligation wliich is imposed upon him, besides, his going to the mill of his seigneur to have his wheat ground there, and when he sells his p.operty the buyer is obliged to pay lods il vfiitcs, a mutation fine equal to one-twelfth part of the value of it; these are about all the feudal duties to which our cultivators are generally liable. So that a vassal is not subject to vexation by having a varii _ " superiors? — Not the least ; it bus little or no effect upon the vassal. With regard to the law within the townships; you stated that in your opinion tli? Act of 1774 had no effect within the townships until the Declaratory Act of 6 (leo. 4. stated that that was the case, and that much inconvenience liad arisen in coiLsequcnce of that Act of Geo. 4. ?■ — Il is so. 5''9- T J What D. B. Vigir Etq. 10 June i8ab. 10 June i8'i8. 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE What was the mode of conveyance, and what was the law which existed within the townships up to the Act of Geo. 4- ? — I ''ave seen many deeds passed according to the form prescribed by the laws of our country ; they were generally made in that way, as I understood. Were they made also according to the English form of conveyance ?— Since a number of years some persons in Canada have raised their voice against our forms, whether riglit or wrong. Some gentlemen conceived there might be a little doubt some day or other, in spite of the practice and of the opinions which were enter- tained by the judges, and the practice of the court with regard to sheriff's sales, and real and mixed actions relative to real property, and many other acts which affected, directly or indirectly, property in the townships ; and I understand that some people had sales made, both according to the English forms and according to the forms prescribed by our laws, for the same estates. I have been told that that is the case, though I have not seen the deeds. Have the courts of justice given any opinion as to the law that exists within the townships, whether in case of a person dying intestate his property is to be divided according to one law or the otb.er? — I do not know any direct decision having been given upon that point in our courts of justice. There is one fact that strikes as proving their opinion, and it is the sheriff's sales, and actions respecting real pro- perty during more than 40 years in the townships : if the laws of England are really the laws of the townships, all those sales of course would be null and void ; because, if I understand the laws of England upon this subject, real property cannot be sold ; that you can seize the revenue, but not sell the land itself by execution ; and with regard to actions, our actions petitoire, possessore, or others relative to real property, could not apply to estates governed by tlie laws of England. Have those sales conUnued since the Declaratory Act of Geo. 4. ? — Yes. You stated that the mode of conveyance, according to the English forms, was much more expensive than that which prevails according to the trench forms? — So I understand from all quarters ; and I recollect that it was a subject of par- ticular attention when the Legislative Council sent to us bills to change the late law, 6 Geo. 4, which the Imperial Parliament had passed upon tliat subject ; of course we made some inquiry about it, and it was found, from all information, that it was more expensive ; indeed the double deed, wiiicli is to be made according to English forms, and double actions, create expenses, whereas by the laws of Canada one deed and one action are suflicient. Do you happen to know why they preferred that mode of conveyance by lease and release ? — It would be very difficult for me to explain. Supposing you had an English deed of one page, should you complain of that, {a form of deed being shoun to the Witness) ? — By no means; I have been informed that they have admitted such form in Upper Canada, and in some of the United States ; but it was by changing the forms of conveyance ; that is very simple I must confess, but it docs not seem to me that this would be sufficient in Canada ; I would not like quite so simple a form, because, though our forms are very simple, by the laws of Canada we are obliged to describe the property, and be more accurate in many other respects ; even in our forms, simple as they are, there are a great many things which are entered which arc not |)crfectly necessary. 1 will state some words which are to be found in all our contracts , wc generally make use of this word on the part of the seller, that he obliges himself to guarantee ; by tiie laws of the country that is not necessary, every man that sells is supposed to be obliged to guarantee, and yet by mere habit this stipulation is entered in all the deeds ; I could cite a number of words of that kind which are quite useless, and which might be dis- pensed with; but the forms are generally printed beforehand, and of course the notaries will stick to them as a mere matter of hubit. Do you happen to know wiiether of late the land has descended according to free and common soccage within the townships, or according to the Canadian law ? — ■ I do not know what has passed upon this subject lately in the townships, since the pa.ssing of the Declaratory Act, which I have mentioned. I should have added in my preceding answer, we iiave all the advantages of the modifying system, as they have adojjled it in Upper Canada and in the United States, with regard to the transfer of real proiwrty, only it is periiaps regulated more precisely in our system of civil jmisprudence in Canada; we have all tiic advantages which they have endeavoured to get by ado{)ting new forms different from those which are used in England. As the law now stands, are you of opinion that if an individual died holding 1and$ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 151 lands in free and common soccage within the townships, they would go to his eldest son ? — If the Act of Parliament is to be executed I should suppose it would be so. The only difficulty which there is in this matter is, that you have many different species of successions in England. I understand that in England there are some counties in which an equal division of property takes place among children. How- ever, it is, I should suppose, more common to see the whole of the real estate go to the eldest son ; and suppose that the Declaratory Act would be understood in this way, that the landed property would go to the eldest son. Hitherto that has not been understood ? — It was understood that a division took place according to the laws of Canada ; and it is generally tlie manner in which the laws of descent have been made, even in the United States, by changing their for< mer system. The prejudice is so much in favour of this species of descent, that in Upper Canada the House of Assembly has passed, within a few years past, two or three bills successively to establish that law of equal division between the children ; but the Legislative Council rejected those bills. If heretofore lands in the townships, although held in free and common soccage, have passed from the father to the children under the laws prevailing in Lower Canada, and supposing that, according to the statute which has lately passed, the English law is now to apply to them, would it not be necessary to pass an Act in order to quiet existing titles ; that is to say, in order to give them some assurance with respect to titles that have been derived from generation to generation under the French law ? — Of course it would be necessary ; it is an Act that might be easily passed in Lower Canada ; and in the very Act of the Imperial Parliament, which is declaratory, it is particularly enacted, that the Provincial Legislature may change and alter the law, and indeed it was respecting that very clause which I cited from the Act of 1 791. It was supposed that those who solicited the passing of that law by the llritish Parliament, saw probably that there would be some difficulty in its execution ; and it is perhaps for that reason that they have added a provision, that the Parliament of Lower Canada may change, alter, and modify it, so as to make it convenient for Lower Canada. Will you be good enough to point out to the Committee that clause in the Act of 1791 which induced the Canadians to believe that the English law was not the law of the townships? — It is not in consequence of the express enactment which is to be found in the 43d clause of that Act, that the Canadians were induced to believe that the laws of England were not the laws of the townships, but we con- sidered that what is to be found in that clause afforded an additional reason to inter- pret the Act of 1774 as we did. We thought that from the general rules of interpretation of laws of a public nature, although the words might imply some- thing in contradiction to the principles which the law seems to intend to lay down, as all public laws should be interpreted rather according to the intention of the Legislature than the ordinary grammatical meaning of words, it was thought that the Government of England did not intend to establish two different systems of law in the same country, and particularly one for persons in the townships and another for real property ; because if the French laws were generally introduced in the country, that exception with regard to the townships would apply only to real pro- perty, not to persons, so that there would be one system of law for persons, and another system of law for real property ; but supposing even that this was not the intention of the Legislature at the time, an error which has been fallen into by eveiy body in Canada should certainly be looked upon at least as respectable. This would be a case for saying error communis Jacit jus, no inconvenience could arise with regard to real property in Canada from that interpretation : our law is simple and well defined, and such as every body would prefer to the system of real pro- perty, and transfer, as it exists in England. I do not pretend to be a judge of the laws of England, but I will take the opinion of every English writer upon the subject. I am sure that any body who will take the trouble of examining with attention the princi|)les of our law with regard to real property, will see that there can be very little incunvcuicncc arising out of this system. Is it right then, when that interpretation has been given to it for 40 years, when the whole system of the country is established upon it, that we siiould learn from the other side of the Atlantic that the law has been changed ? Another reason for which the Lower Canadians must be sup- posed to think that they have a right to their own laws in those lands which were open to their own industry, was, that the greatest number of the people who have come to settle in those lands were foreigners ; and it docs not appear right that those 5^9. T 4 Canadians to June i8a8. 153 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. B. Wigtr, 10 June itaS. Canadians wlio have before and since been called to defend tlieir country in war, and to defend those institutions which are dear to them, should be deprived of the advantages which they can derive from the knowledge of their own institutions in tlieir own country. The Committee will observe besides, that after the conquest a proclamation was issued by the King, which went upon the supposition that the conquest had the effect of destroying the laws of Canada. After an examination, it was found that this was not consonant with the principles of public law between civilized nations ; that a conquest could have no such etfect ; that by the conquest allegiance only changed; but that pro|)erty remained, and of course the laws, which are the safeguard to that property, and without wliich it could never be kept; and finally, tliis proclamation was looked upon as a nullity. It is to be remarked further, that even in the Act of 1 774 there is a particular stipulation with regard to this subject. In the Act of 1774, c. 83, it is declared, in the 4th section, " And whereas the provisions made by the said proclamation have been found inapplicable to tlie state and circunistunccs of the said province, the inhabitants whereof amounted, at the conquest, to above 65,000 persons, p.ofes- sing the religion of the Church of Rome, and enjoying an establishad form of constitution and system of laws, by which their persons and property had been protected, governed and ordered, for a long series of years from the first establishment of the said province of Canada." In the fifth section it is enacted, " that the inhabitants may profess the Romish religion ;" and in the 8th section it is enacted, " that in matters of controversy relative to property and civil rights, resort shall be had to the laws of Canada as the rule for decision of the same ; and all causes shall, with respect to such property and rigiits, be determined agreeably to the said laws and customs of Canada, until they shall be varied or altered by any ordinances passed in the said province." Now the lotli clause goes to say that this shall not extend to lands conceded by His Majesty in free and common soccage ; but previous to that the seigneurial rights are of course kept up upon property. Now it was understood at that time that this exception could relate only to the encumbrances with which, by the feudal laws, those lands might |)e charged, but that it did not apply to the ordinary laws which affect every citizen; it was not understood that the property in the townships should be governed by another system in that respect ; we could never imagine that we were to be shut out from the townships by tlic want of knowledge of the system of laws with which we were about to be iitiected in entering those townships ; that the Government meant to establish two systems of law in the same country, and to establish the confusion that would result from such a division in the province ; and I understand that it was the opinion of some of the best lawyers in England, who have been consulted on the subject, that this exception could not be understood in a different way from what I have stated ; but even supposing it had been an error, when an error of that kind has been so long in existence in a country, would I not have reason to say, as I have ah cudy observed, that errorcommunisfucitjus. If the conduct of every body was founded upion this kind of error, we might say, in a case of this kind, optima interpret legttm luus d consuetudo. Will you read the 43d clause of the 3i.st of George the 3d, and state whether it is not evident by thot clause of the 31st of George the jd, tliat it was the deliberate intention of Parliaiiient to tstablisii two systems of tenure of property in Canada, namely, that they did nut intend to abolish tiie seigncuries, and that they did intend to establish the system of free and common soccs'.ge? — iVom this very Act I would probably come to a very different conclusion, because the free and common soccage is no more nur less than a tenure known in our own laws; what is the free and common soccage tenure but i\\c franc uku? Will you explain what the franc alcu is? — 'Ihe franc aleu is the land which is subject to 110 kind of dues ; there are two sorts of franc alcu; the franc aku noble, and the Jranc alcu roturier ; the franc aleu noble is divided os fiets, and the franc aleu roturier is divided us lolures. All the advantages and privile;{cs which attend the free and common soccage we attain by the franc aleu, and that is what we understood to l)c the species of tenure wliich the I'lirliaiiient of Kngland wanted to introduce. Moreover if liiere was oiiy change to take place in the opinions of the public, or of the judges, or in the practice ot the courts upon this subject, I would •sk, who ought to have had the power of making such an alteration ; when besides ^he general power of making laws vested in the Legislature of Lower Canada, there i« this particular provision in the 43d section of the Act, which gives the free and common * i % ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. iSS in war, of the in ti I I I commor soccage tenure, " subject nevertheless to such alterations, witli respect to the nature and consequences of such tenure of free and common soccage, as may be established by any law or laws which may be made by His Majesty, his heirs or suc- cessors, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Council and Assembly of the Province." If we are to take the very words of this law, we must infer that it was the Parliament of Lower Canada who were to examine and to decide whether the judges had misconstrued the law, and to establish rules according to the power which had been given to them. Has any Act, originating in the Assembly of Canada, received the Royal Assent, which regulates or interferes in any way with the English law of property as appli- cable to land held in free and common soccage? — As there was no doubt about this question, there was never any mention in our Legislature about it, that I know. When was the first doubt raised upon this question, whether the English Law was to prevail in the townships or not ? — It is not possibiu hr uie to say. Is it long ago that the question was raised ? — Yes; I have heard many things said long ago, but t!je proceedings in the court*- of justice and the general practice continued in the same way. Did the courts of justice ever come to a decision that the English law did not prevail in the townships? — I am not aware of any direct decision upon the subject; but the practice of the courts was such, that it was impossible they could have acted in the manner in which they have if they had supposed that the laws of Eng- land were the laws in force in the townships. What has been practically the course of inheritance in the townships for the last forty years? — If I were to speak from my personal knowledge of one particular case, I would say that an immense property, which is in the township of Hull, has been divided after the death of a woman according to the laws of Canada, and all the Acts have been passed according to the laws of Canada, the rights of communauti acknowledged, and the division made between the father and the children, and I know the notary who has done the whole ; but as I have very little practice in the townships for many years, I have not been very attentive to that subject. Do you conceive that the rights of primogeniture have never been acted upon uniformly in the townships since the conquest? — .^s far as my knowledge goes I know it was not considered to apply to the townships. Your attention has been called to the 43d clause of the Act of 1791, in which it is provided, that in all cases for the future, within the province of Lower Canada, whenever grants arc made it shall be at the option of the grantee whether they are made according to the French law or to the English law of free and common soc- cage ; are you or not aware that every grant that has since been made has, in point of fact, been made according to the English law of free and common soccage ? — I understand that they were made in free and common soccage ; and I have already said that we understood this free and common soccage to be like Xheji'anc aleu, that it freed the lands from feudal incumbrances, but that they were to be governed by the other laws of the country, that it exonerated those lands from the feudal incumbrances, and went no further. Arc the Committee then to understand that the interpretation which has been put in Lower Canada upon the 43d clause of the Act of 1791, is not that the free and common soccage there alluded to was the free and common soccage in use in England, but the franc aleu system of the French law ? — It was understood that it was a free tenure, which was not liable to any of the feudal burthens imposed by our own laws cither ew Jief or rotiire, and of course we considered it & franc aleu, so far that it paid no rents or dues, but with regard to succession, sale and other laws which relate to property, we considered that those lands were liable to the civil laws of the country us they are received and acknowledged in Lower Canada. That was the common opinion, and as I have said already, this opinion seems to me as even confirmed by the very Act itself of 1791 ; because the Legislature of Lower Canada is specifically empowered to make regulations with regard to tluit tenure, and it was therefore for them to see whether the judges gave a right and faithful interpretation of the Act of 17111. You were understood to state tiiat it was the duty of the Legislature of Lower Canada to watch the judgments of the courts, and that if those courts miscon- strued the law ot 1791 it wouKI be tiieirduty to check that misconstruction. You have also stated, that you are not aware of there being any I'ecord of any judg- ment of the courts in Lower Canada, deciding one way or anoliicr as to the . 569. U law B. Viger-, Eiq. J . 10 June iSsS.^ 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. A yiger, ___«£___ law that prevailed in the townships ; how tlien, under these circumstances, could the Lef^isiutive Assembly have any opportunity of considering that point i — I have titated, that I mm not aware that any Judgment directly pronouncing upon this question had been given in Canada, although there might have been a. deci- sion ; but I must add, that the practice has been such, that it was impossible that the Judges should entertain a dilferent opinion ; for example, with regard to the seizure of property by the sheritl' fur 40 years; we have been seizing pro- perty, and an iniincnse quantity of these lancfs have been sold by the sherift", and have become the property of the gentlemen that bought at those saieu. With regard to successions I have a knowledge that tutelles have been made accord- ing to the laws of Canaying that the government of Mis Majesty will have a right to concede lands in free and common soccage, they say, as it were, to the Legislature of Lower Canada, " we have already given you the general superintendence over all the country, but even where lands are granted in free and common soccage you will be particu.. larly the Judges of the eflect which this species of tenure will have ;" and I am sure that any gentleman in Lower Canada must have thought that there was something in this expression which, when added to the common general expressions which were used, were intended to give to the Legislature of Lower Canada the power of legislation, in particular with respect to those lands, lint even supposing that this power had not been given, would it not be right that tiie Legislature of Lower Canada should rather have this power than the Parliament of England r Were we to suppose, when this Act of 1 79 1 was given to us, that the Legislature of England would make laws without giving any notification to the province of Lower Canada with regard to suhject!« of interior legislation ? Now we know very well that the Parliament of England has the superintending power over all the colonics, and I might say to the Committee, that if they had been present at some of the discus- sions which have taken place in Lower Canada, they would see how far we rely upon its power fur our protection, as well as we acknowledge it with submission ; but it is well understood, I tliiak, since the colonies have become more advanced, that toey are not to be treated as they were sometimes of necessity when in their inlaocy. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. t55 infancy. How could wc suppose then that a law of this kind would be pasxed m this Parliament without the province heirifj; aware of what was to be the result of that law? Supposing we iiad interpreted tlie law in a manner different from what the Parliament had interpreted, have not we the right even of repealini; Acts of Parliament r Do not wc change every day the laws of England in (Canada? Is not the crimina Haw, as it stood in 1 774, altered every day in our provincial Parlia- ment ? Nobody could deny that the Parlian)ent of Lower Canada had a right to legislate u|)on these subjects; and as wc had even a special right of making alterations with regard to that particular subject, we might have made any change supposeil to be advantageous to the country without referring to the Parliament of England. Are you aware that by the constitutional law of England no Colonial Act catt repeal t' " enactment of a British Act? — I am not exactly aware of that, since it leems to ..le to be the daily practice in all the Ikitish colonies to alt^r and modify the laws of England, such as they are established by statutes, or by common law in England ; and there is a particular enactment in our own constitutional act, which I suppose must have hud in view to correct the abuses which might follow the too great extension of this power, which might l)e exercised by the Ix^gislatm-e of Upper or Lower Canada, because in the very Constitutional Act there is a particular power reserved to (lis Majesty to disallow such acts as are passed by the Parliaments of Upper or Lower (Canada during two years after they had been enacted ; I know that we have altered many statutes of England in cnminat matters, and I think it would be very desirable that wc should imitate even what is done in England at present with regard to the amelioration of criminal justice. Are you aware that it is in tlie power of Great Britain to impose what laws it chooses upon a ceded colony, and that when the Act of 1 791 gave Lower Canada an independent Legislature, as it provided that the law of free and comMon soccage should be the law in future grants, if it had not given at the same time specihcully a power to Lower Canada to alter that character of property, it would not have been within the power of the Assembly of Lower Canada to have madtf any alteration in it, and consequently, it became necessary at the same time that the law of Great Britain established the law of free and common soccage, to give, a power to the Assembly of Lower Canada to make such alterations in it as the King might ciioose to consent to ; are you prepared to adopt this explanation ? — I do not consider that the Parliament of England has more power with regard to a conquered country than is allowed by international laws, and public laws which I consider to be part of ihe laws of England ; I speak of moral power, not of the power of force, which does not impose moral obligations, but which binds only as of necessity. Besides, the present natives of Canada arc all natural born British subjects, and they conceive they have the common rights of British subjects. With respect to this particular subject of the tenures, supposing that the Parliament of England had an intention in 1791, that the cttects of the concessions made in Canada of lands according to this tenure were to carry with them all the conse- quences which they might have in England, according to the laws of England, with regard to the laws of descent and transfer of property, I consider that even in virtue of the general power which was given by the Parliament of England to the Parliament of Lower Canada, to make laws for the interior of that province, the' Parliament of Lower Canada would have a full and competent authority to make, with the consent of His Majesty, any alteration which miglit be necessary from the laws ot England. The manner of changing the laws may vary, and even use and custom will establish laws, and will serve to interpret laws. This took place in Canada with regard to the tenures. Can you inform the Committee what is the proportion of the area of Lower Canada in which the townships are included as compared witli the area of the seigneuries ? — No. About 30 or 40 townships have sctlleuients in then). The extent of townships already granted in whole or in part, and the ungranted lands, form almost the whole superficies of the province, the seigneuvies being ciiieHy confined to the shores of the St. Lawrence and the rivers falling into it. Lower Canada generally, however, contains relatively to its superficies hut a small propor- tion of lund fit for cultivation under that climate. It is in tact the lower part of the valley of a great river, and this valley towards the eastern cxtreuiity is re- duced to a narrow limit by the meeting of the southern and northern chaintt 569. U .' of D. S. Wign, g«f- to JUM iSlS. 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. B. Vigtr, 10 June 1818. of mountains, exteniling from the Alleghanies on the south, and Hudson's Bay on tho north. Do you think tliat the establishment of tiie English laws, which relate to pro- perty held in England on free and common soccage, and bringing tiiem into opera* tiun in the townships in Lo«vcr Canada, and also applying them to all property wherever held in Lower Canada, whicti is held on the tenure of free and common soccage would bo an infringement of the rights of the ancient Canadian inhabitants of the country } — The Itast that I could say cf it is, that it would be unjust ; I think it would be an infringement of the rights which belong to us if it was not done by the Legislature of Lower Canada. Do you think that it would tend to retard the cultivation and civilization of the uninhabited and wild districts of Lower Canada: — If I were to enter into the details, I would demonstrate that it is that kind of fluctuation which has existed in Canada since the conquest, by which we have continually been threatened with seeing all our institutions which were dear to us destroyed, which has retarded the settlement of the country, and if you consider the immense progress which has been made by the Canadian population in spite of all tlie difficulties which they have ex|)erienced, it is easy to see what it would have been if a proper system of conduct had been followed with regard to the Canadians. When you say a proper system, do you mean if the French system and the French law had not been obstructed in its operation ? — So far as tiiis, that they should have continued to let the French law prevail all over the country, and that they should linve given facility to the people of the country to settle in those town- ships, that instead of putting obstruction, they should have given them the means to go there ; that a system of education should have been followed in the country, according to the ideas and notions of the people, instead of raising obstacles in the way which 1 could detail to the Conmiittee, and show them that every thing I am saying now I can support by facts, and facts of a most extraordinary nature ; that particularly which has been a great obstacle to the dcvelopement of the in- dustry of the Canadians has been, that they have been too often looked upon as a species of enemies to the Government, and 1 beg the Committee to look at the distribution of places in Lower Canada, even of offices purely of honour, such as justices of the peace, kc. Is not the real struggle which is now taking place in Canada a struggle between those who wish to promote French Canadian interests and to extend French law over the whole of Lower Canada, and those who wish to resist that operation, and to protect the English settlers in that country und place them under English law ? — There is no such feeling; the desire of the Canadians must be necessarily to keep up their own institutions, und to preserve their laws in every part of the country. In that there is no kind of feeling against the English popniation ; a prejudice of tliat kind does not exist in Canada. The best proof tiiat there is no feeling against what are called the English is, that at least one hnlf of that population sides with the Canadians in all the little difficulties we have had with our administration. Is it not the wish of the Canadians to change the structure of the i.egislat)vc Council, and to take measures for insuring its formation in such a way as to make it likely that it should agree with the Legislative Assembly r — I am sure ve must wish that the Legislative Council should be composed of men who would side with the mass of the people. Do you not believe that in effecting that arrangement you would sect re the means of extending the French law and the French Canadian system over Lower Canada ? — That niigiit perhaps be the natural effect, but there is no pan icular system of this description ; the whole mass of the people being attached to ir stitu- tions which have been already in existence for two centuries, and which they were called upon by the Government to defend at the breaking out of the last wai with the United States. If the law should be the expression of public opinion, it is very possible that what nre called Canadian interests might in some measure p'evail, and I think that the Dritish interests would by the same consequence be prevailing; because I can say very boldly, that the Canadian interests and the British interests are the same. In your own individud opinion, do you think it desirable to adopt such mea- sures as would secure to the inhal)itants of Lower Canada, of French extraction, a prefer jDce in settling the vacant lands in Lower Canada over emigrants fron> England, or tlie descendants of the inhabitants of the townships? — I would not 9 wish ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. >57 visli a particular preference to be given to tiie CanHiiiang, although they should be equally protected ; but, in point of fact, it is evident that it Mould be \vell, even politically speaking, right as Just, to protect equally the population, which must be naturally linked v/ith the Government of Great Britain by its own interest, if it Mas not so even by aft'ection and duty. Are you not aware that, taking the generality of emigrants who land at Quebec with the desire of settling in Lower Canada, the majority of those emigrants would prefer to settle upon lands under the English law of property and descent rather than under the French law ? — I do nut think that one in 10,000 ever thinks of the laws under which he is to live when he comes to I^wcr Canada; and if the Com< mittee were to know the species of emigrants that cume to Lower Canada they Would say I was right ; but it is natural that a great number of them should go 10 Upper Canada, because there is the English language, and the greater numbei of emigrants have gone to that country, and above ull, tlie climate of Upper Canada is much better than that of Lower Canada. Is a great proportion of the emigrants who arrive in Lower Canada Scotch ? — Ves. Is the Scotch law under which tliey have lived before mure resembling the English or the French Canadian law? — Of course, the civil law of Canada being, generally speaking, tlie Konran law, wherever there is no special enactment of the coutume de Paris, and the oidonnances of the King of France, and other enactments, which are the smallest part of the laws of Canada ; the consequence is, that the common law of both countries being as it were the same, there is more analogy between the laws of Canada and those of Scotland than between the laws of Canada and the laws of England ; indeed, there is the greatest diflerence between the laws of England unci the laws of Scotland, and the same difference exists between the laws of Canada and the laws of England. Have the Committee understood you correctly to imply, that the French popu- lation in Canada would be more disposed to spread themselves, and to setde in the uncultivated parts of Canada, if they were secure of having their own laws and institutions when they so settled ? — Yes. Do you sec any objection in principle to an arrangement of this sort, that although the whole of the area of Lower Cainda may not be subjected to French laws, certain parts of that area should be reserved for the settlement of the native inhabitants of the colony, where they might enjoy their own laws and their own privileges, without any drawback or modilication ? — Yes ; I do not think it is the desire of the native inhabitants of Lower Canada to keep themselves distinct from the people that surround them ; they wish to live in peace and quietness with all who now arc or who may hereafter become inhabitants of the province, and that no -alterations should take place in the existing laws and institutions without the consent of representatives equally and freely chosen by the whole population. They think that the province has already been too much divided into distinct parts, which can only form barriers to its general improvements and welfare, and give rise to mis- imdcrstunding, jealousies and confusion. These can only be prevented or removed by a marked discouragement of them on the partot (iovernmeht, and suffering the people of the province, without any distinction wliatever, to have an equal voice in the management of its internal ail'airs. > D. B. Vigir, Etq. 10 JuiM iSflt. Jew's, 12° die Junii, 1828. Austin Cuvillier, Esq. called in ; nnd Examined. YOU represent the County of Huntingdon in the Legislative Assembly of Lower Austin Cuvillier, Canada ? — I am one of the members representing the county of Huntingdon. ^9' How long have you represented that county ? — Upwards of 1 4 years. "~^ Have you had occasion to pay much attention to financial matters since you have "* ''""® *"'• been a member of the Assembly r — I have been generally appointed on committees, to whom have been referred the accounts of the receipts and expenditures of that provin'.e Arc you engaged in mercantile pursuits in Lower Canada? — I am a commission merchant. •"' Are you also a landowner ? — I am. .509. U 3 The 158 MINUTES OF EVIDliNCli BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Amtm CmiUUer, II Juno ii*H Thu Conimiltec nrc iiitormcd tliat (iittputes huvc nrUen between tlio AMScinbly and tlic Executive (iovernmcnt ut' Lower Cuiiiidti, upon the Hultjeci of the iippropri- ation ot' revenue ; in your opinion, would the Legislative Asscnibly ol>ject ultuKcthur to voting |ierinanii)lly u part of the cHtublishnicnt tor the Executive (iovernment? — I cnnnot pretend to siiy what the I.i'ni.slative AsBcmbly of Lower Canada would do ; all I can «uy is, thut they have hitherto made a permanent appropriation for the salary of the licutenunt-Kovernor during his residence ; and they have ofl'ered to make a |>ermanent provision for the Judges, with retired allowances, on condition that the commissions shoiiM be during good behaviour, and that they should with- draw from the Councils, and thut u tiibunal should he appointed in the colony fur the trial of impeachments. You say that tiny have voted a salary to the lieutenant-governor ; have they ever voted a salary for the govcrnor-in-chieff — No. Is there an indisposition to do so? — There has been an indisposition generally to vote any of the salaries of the otiicns of Ciovernnient permanently: it was asked uf them in the year 1S21 by the present governor, and it was refused. Subse- quently it was asked for during the life of the King, and that also was refused. For what length of time did they consent to vote the salary of the lieutenant- g;overnor? — During his residence in the colony. Can you state upon what ground they have objected to put the Ciovemor him- Bclf upon the same for)ting? — It lias never been asked separately from the other expenses of (lovcrnnient; hut it was asked generally, that the whole expenses of the (iovernment, which they called the Civil List, should be voted permanently, or during the life of the kinff. Do you believe that the Assembly would object to vote a salory for the governor ail long as he continued to hold his office? — ! cannot answer for others, I can only give my own opinion concerning what I would do. I should be disposed, indi> ▼idually, not to vote the salary of the governor-general of British North America at all ; I think it more digniHed for the Empire to pay its governor-general, rather than to fasten it upon the province of Lower Canada exclusively, which has its lieutenant-governor to pay as well as the other provinces ; it only amounts to 5,000/. currency. Is not the salary of the lieutenant-governor borne now upon the expenses of the colony? — It is. Is not the salary of the governor-general borne upon the establishment of Lower Canada only? — It is. As far as the objection applies to his having authority in the two provinces, while the whole of his salary is paid by one province only, would not that be got rid of by dividing the sidary between both the provinces ?— It would diminish that objection so far as Lower (Canada is concerned ; but I think it would be very un- dignified for the governor-geBcral of the colonies to be applying to every colonial assembly within liis jurisdiction for a portion of his salary. Would there be any other objcrtion than that which you have stated, to voting the salary of the governor-Lrcncral, nr a proper portion of it, for the time during which he held his office?- I can only answer for myself; I should feel inclined if I were so called upon, to vote t!io salary of the governor-general during the time that he administered the govcrnnu'nt therein. With respect to the Judges, the Commifteo understand that they are appointed only (luring pleasure ? — Tliey are appointed during pleasure. Would it, in your view, be safe and wise to appoint them t/iiitm iliu se bene gcssvrctil } No (juestioii thut hol(lin lit JuM iBaiL i6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jmilk CuvUtitr, la June 1898. sum of money voted to make up a sum equal in amount to that which was required, and certainly it left the distribution of the money entirely at the dis- posal of the Government. I objected to the bill in 1825, upon the principle' that the Assembly denied to the Executive Government the right of disposing of the monies under the Act of 1 774, at the same time that they left a much larger sum at their entire disposal ; but to guard against that, so far as regarded that law, we entered resolutions on our own journals, stating that whenever a sum of money was voted for one service, it should be applied exclusively to that service, and not to any other ; which guarded in some respect against the mis- application of money from one service to another. By obliging the executive- to submit annually an account of the expenditure under that particular account,- we thereby ensured to the Assembly an opportunity of judging whether monies of tb»t description were misapplied. Was not the objection to the Act of 1825, upon the part of the Government at home, that by voting a definite sum to make up a certain amount, the House of Assembly took upon themselves virtually to control over those funds which the Government maintained were subject to their appropriation ? — No doubt ; the Assembly considered it so also. How is that to be reconciled with the position which you laid down just no' that the Legislature in 1825 passed a bill, granting a permanent appropriaiiou to the Crown r — I did not understand that any permanent appropriation had beea made in 1825 What was voted by the bill of 1825 ? — £. .58,064 sterling. Under what conditions was that voted? — The sum was voted under the con- dition that it should be expended for the general purposes of the Governmen*, and that the account of the expenditure should be submitted to the Legislature within 1 ,5 days of the then ensuing session. Was the vote worded in such a way as to assume the power of voting the monies arising from ehe taxes raised under the Act of 1 774 i — The bill had that effect. In what way was that produced ? — It was worded so that the sum given by the Legislature was to make up the sum of 58,000/. for the general expenses of the Government, including the sums already appropriated to that purpose. Was there not also a provision that an account of the 58,000 /. should within fifteen days of the next session of Parliament be laid before the Legislature ? — There was. Did not that provision bind the Crown down to account to the Legislature for those sums which they claimed to be under their special appropriation ? — Unques- tionably, it was so intended. Did not the phraseology of the bill also include, virtually, a grant and appro- priation of those taxes ? — We did not appropriate those, because they were already appropriated for the purposes of Government ; but we voted a sum that would, with tiiose taxes, form the amount that was judged necessary for the expenses of the Civil Government, which hadtheeHect of bringing the whole of that appropriated revenue under the control of the Legislature. On what ground do you hold that the revenues arising under the Act of ^774 are not entirely at the distributior; and under the control of tiio Government ? — I think the Act of 1774 was virtually repealed by the Act of 177S. Explain the grounds of that opinion? — .At the time that the Act of 1774 was passed, thi; colony riad no Legislative Assembly; it had no power within itself of laying taxes for the support oi its own Government. 'Hie principle adhered to by the British (lovernment now, i.s, that in their regulations concerning trade genera, ly, whenever taxes are raised for that purpose in the colonies, they arc directed to be applied in the colonies, under the control of the local Assemblies, where there ire Assemblies ; and where there arc no .Assemblies, it is 1 jf* as in the Act of 1 774, to be r, (plied by tii'" Lords of the Treasury. I considt r the Treasury at that t me held thy po.ver of applying the taxes, in trust, to be exercised so long only as the colony liad not a Legislative Assembly, but the moment the colony obtained a Legis- lative Assembly, that trust ceased in the hands of the Treasury, and we became virtually possessed of our inherent riiilits as Ihitish subjects, that is, the right of taxing ourselves, and the; riu;lit ol'iipplying those revenues within the colony. Idut is my opinion of the Acts of 1771s and I7()i, as ajjplied to that of 1774. 'Ihcn you do not contend that the rij,!it of the .Assembly to control those taxes arises from any definite provision of an Act of Parliament, but that it is a general i , inherent to as Asi thn aot ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. i6i inherent power connected with the legislative powers of the province ? — I under* stand it so. ^Vhat would be the grounds upon which you would decline following the analogy of the British Government, in voting a certain sum for the King's life, or for a term of years, for a civil list ? — There is no analogy whatever between the practice of the colonies and the practice of the mother country. The King here is sup- posed to be always in the midst of his people, surrounded by a nobility that have a real stake and permanence in the country ; but in Canada there is no such thing ; the Government of Canada cannot be administered by the King, it must be by a representative, accountable to the King and to his ministers. We have not in Lower Canada any thing like an aristocracy, and the consequence is, that there is no motive in the colonies for making that provision for the civil government of the colony that there is in England. Besides, in England the King has given more than an equivalent for the civil list, he has given large landed patrimonial estates, in consideration of which, the Parliament have given to His Majesty a permanent grant of money. Has not the Crown the power to cede any casual or territorial revenue arising in Canada r — I conceive that the Government has already conceded part of its territorial revenue in 1 794, for the public uses of the province. Do you not conceive that in a government which admits of any monarchical principles in its constitution, it is essential that there should be certain officers of state who are independent of the popular voice? — I will not enter into the merits of any form of government, but I will merely say, that it is my opinion generally that the judges only in the colony should be made independent of the people. Do you conceive that all other officers whatever belonging to the state should be subject to un annual vote of a popular assembly ? — I do so, with the exception of the governor-general, who, I think, should be paid by the Empire. You state that there can be no aristocracy in Canada, what makes you say so r — The laws of the country are against the acquirement of property sufficiently large to create an aristocracy in the country, and the manners of the people of America are decidedly against the system of aristocracy. Do you apply that to America generally, or is there any thing peculiar to Canada? — America generally. What is it that prevents the accumulation of property in large masses in the hands of individuals? — The subdivision of property. What produces the subdivision of property ? — The laws of descent. Are the laws of descent similar all over America? — I believe they are pretty much the same in the United States of America as in the seigneuries of Lower Canada. Is it not frequently the case among the French inhabitants of Lower Canada that they leave their property to the younger son, while the elder sons go else- where ? — It has hitherto been the case, but that custom is dying away very fast ; there have been considerable abuses of that mode of giving away property, I believe it is not now very generally followed in Canada. Then the almost universal practice in Lower Canada is to divide the property among the children? — It is, by an equal division. Does that system prevail in Upper Canada? — I do not know what system prevails in Upper Canada ; but the Representative Assembly has frequently passed a bill lor an equal division of the estates of persons dying intestate. Do you know what system prevails in the United States of America ? — I do not. Was not there more than one offer made by the Assembly to the Government to take the civil list upon itself to a certain amount, if a sufficient control were given over tlio appropriation r — There has been no detinite proposal to vote any additio'ial sum permanently. Was not tlierc a proposal to take the civil list as it stood in iSic), provided a control A^erc' ^ivtii to the Assembly? — The Assembly voted in 1819 nearly the whole of the sum that was required of it by the Executive Government in i8i8. Was not thero an offer mad*' by tlit- Assembly to cngajre to pay the civil list as it stood in iji)'. provided a control over the appropriation wen' given to the Assembly?- riio offers whirl; ;i legislative buiy generally makes arc by bills, that is tiie langu'dge of the Legislftture ; that bill professed to make an annual appropriation in 1819, for all the necessary expenses of CJovernment. ' 5(j(). X Were Austin Cuvjllitr, £tq. 13 Ji^e 1898. i62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Amliit CvpiUkr, 11 June 1838. Were they specified item by item ? — In i8ig it wag voted item by item, and so expressed in the bill. In 1821 the sums were voted by cliapters, that bill did not pass in the Legislative Council. In 1 82a there was no money voted ; it was asked for permanently during the life of the Kinw, terms in themselves contra- dictory, but they were used in the message sent down by the governor. Do you know on what ground the bill which voted the supplies by chapters was rejected by the Council?—! did not attend the debates in tlie Council, but I know that the Council passed certain resolutions against Uieir proceeding upon any bill from the Assembly, which did not provide forthe expenses of the ijovem' ment in one entire sum, and during the liie of the King. Will you be so good as to state what control you hold that the /Xssembiy has over what are called the rents of the Kings posts, winch amount to 1,200/. ?— ~ The rents of the King's posts amount to 1,200/. currency, l^rd Dorchester, in his message to the Legislature in 1794. in the name of the King, gave titose revenues to tlie province towards the support of its civil government. Hence the control whicli I conceive the Assembly has over those revenues. It is in con- sequence of a gift on the part of His Majesty to tht province, for the public uses thereof, that the Legislature has the right of appropriating tliem to thoaa purposes. In what form was that gift made ? — By message. Did that message of Lord Dorchester's say that the King would appropriate those revenues for the use of the province, or thtit he made them over to tlie Legislature to be appropriated by Uiem to the use of the provincf?— I do not recollci t the precise words of the message ; but this I recollect, that the casual and territorial revenue was given to the province in aid o'" its civil government; at that particular time the revenues of the province wett uot sufficient lor the payment of its whole expenses. Do you hold that the power of appropriatinff that revenue to specific objects is in the Legislative Assembly? — I conceive so; I coiiceive the right belongs to tlie Assembly of the Colonies to appropriate every shilling of money levied oo them generally. Here is the sum of ,500/. stated as arising from the forges of Saint Maurice ; what is that? — That forms a part of the territoriai revenue of the King. Are the Committee to understand that you clalin more tlian is claimed by any of the other Hritish Legisliitures in North America, because you are probably aware that there is upon record ivo claim whatever, Uy any other Colonial Le.gis- lature, upon what is peculiarly called the territorial revenue of d|p (Jrown? — I do not know what is claimed by other colonies. I have been asked niv opinion as t* what I think ought to bo, and I Iihvc (I(( lured it unetiuivocally. Do you mean, by the answers you have given, to imply that you rliink that the colony ought to have such a claim, or tliat under tlie existing law ttiey have sucii a claim ? — I was asked my own private opinion, and 1 answered that 1 thiiik iit»y have a right under the existing law. You state that you objected to vote 4e civil list permanently ; dc you BMt consider that the power of granting or refwsinii: supplies to the Executive Ciovefn- nient is the principal means of cxercisinu: inHueiice over it "-—No doubt. Do you consider that by having the power of giving or if*>veinent of the country; it would be injuring, not the Kvcutive (>overnin»*»t, i.it tite country generally, to refuse any Uiing like a reasonable graat fur the ,i»rp«Mes of internal improvement. Tlu c*bre you do not believe that they exercise anv cjnlrol ow^ tkHfliovernment by refusing such apjiropriations ? — No. Are they called upon to furnish any means for the defen- ■ of tl»e province ; as in England, the House of Commons is called upon to furni!»- riieans to support the Army and Navy ? — We have never been called upon to ,>i\v any part ol our military establishment; wc have, however, furnished very .^rge sums for the defence of the province during tlie late American war, beyond the means of the country. Then the only control that you exert over the Executive Govemnnent it by having the power of r^f'.ising to vote the oivil li«t ? — The only ooatrol we hwe «v«r ON THE CiVIL GOVERNMENT OP CANADA. 163 ever the Executive Goverament of the province is by refusing the supplies, and that I conceive to be a very great power. We do not know what is meant by civil list in Canada, it is a term used by the Government, but we hava studiously avoided even the name of civil list in all our commuuicatioas with the Executive Government of the province. Do you not believe that, for the peace of the province, it would be bettc. that the House of Assembly should be at their homes than that they should assemble once a year in order to remonstrate in vain, without having any control n^ainst any acts that may be unpopular ? — Assuredly. Are you aware that two appointments have lately been m.\de by the Crown, one of our inspectors of woods and forests in Lower Canada, and the other of an inspector of the waste lands, for the purpose of raising a revenue and applying that revenue under the control of the Crown, and under the dis-^retion of the Government, expressly and exclusively for the benefit of Lower Canada ? — I am aware that there are two such appointments existing in Lower Canada. I believe Mr. Davieson is at the head of one office, and Mr. Felton, of the Legislative Council, is at the head of the other. I do not know what department of Govern- ment pay.s them their salaries ; these t^laries have never been asked of the Legislature of Lower Canada. Are you aware that their salaries are to be derived from the proceeds of the sale of timber and the sale of land? — I do not know ou^ of what fund their salaries are to be provided. Are the Committee to understand that you consider that the Assembly have a right to the proceeds of the sale of land, and the proceeds of the sale of timber, and that they have a right to appropriate those proceeds instead of the Crown ? — These are opinions that are required of me upon which I really should hesitate to pronounce. I know that the people in England are very jealous of any revenues of the Crown independent of Parliament, and any thing that can excite the same jealousy in the colonies is equally pernicious. Are you no* aware that there is this distinction between the situation of the people in the colonies and that of the people in this country, that the colonies do not contribute towards their military defence? — 1 consider that the colonies pay considerably towards the sipport of their defence. The monopoly of our trade is worth something to the Empire, and I think that in consequence of that monopoly we are entitled to be protected. Is it your opinion, that under the circumstances of the change of the commer- cial law of this country under the late Act, it is now to be asserted that the mother country has a monopoly of the trade of Lower Canada r — I should consider so ; because, in throwing open the ports of other parts of the wcild, Parliament has virtually closed them by laying heavy duties, which prevent our taking advan- tage of that intercoui-se ; for instance, the ports of France have been thrown open to Canada tor a direct trade, but the duties imposed upon the manufactures of France in Canada are so heavy that they amount to a prohibition. Are the Committee to understand that you demur to that provision of the Act of 1 8th Geo, 3, which specifically reserved to the mother country the right of imposing duties fo.- the regulation of the trade ? — No, I do not ; I think it very necessary that the Imperial Parliament should possess the power of regulating the general commerce of the Empire. Docs the colony pay any thing towards the support of the troops in Lower Canada? — No. You complain of the waste and mismanagement of the revenues in Lower Canada, have you any further observations to make upon that point? — The petitioners of Lower Canada complain, amongst other things, of the mismanage- ment of their reveiuies. In i8o(), the reccwer- general, it appears, was in arrcar about 40,000/. This sum was assumed by his son and successor, who was in default in 182,} about 100,000/., besides about 100,000/. more advanced, which from that time till iS'ti had siot been settled, notwithstanding repeated addresses of the 'i.isembly. This state of the receiver-general's accounts was not made kn*^ .fii to the Assembly till after his failure. 'V'hat do you mean by saying that there were 100,000/. more advanced ?■ — ■ They were advanced by the receiver-general to persons employed to carry into execution Acts of the Provincial Legislature, containing special appropriations. The manner of advancing money is radicr a bid one in Lower Canada; tliQ AatUm Cuvilliir,' 18 June »838. .569. X2 receiver-general i64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Justin CuvUlier, receiver-geueral advances it upon what are called letters of credit ; the Governor- ^' issues those letters in favour of the party on the receiver-general, the money is ■" ^ ^ advanced by him, but he does not carry it to his account till those letters of credit Vi June i8a8. a^e covered by a warrant, and the warrant is generally issued when the work is performed, and not before, which is the reason why there is such a large sum outstanding ; the warrants have not been issued, because the work has not been performed, or the accounts not satisfactorily vouched. You complain also in your petition of the want of sufficient check on the ex- penditure on the part of those who contribute the money; heve you any observa- tions to make upon that head? — The Representative Assembly of the province has in reality been allowed no check on the expenditures, from the commencement of the constitution in 1 792 to the present time, and its votes and representations latterly have been generally disregarded by the local government, excepting in 1825, during the administration of Sir Francis Burton. The only check on these expenditures in the colony is in the Governor and Council, who spend and dispose of the money, and in the Treasury in England, upon reports of the Governor und Council. Since the year 1819, about 140,000/. of the provincial revenue, which the Government admits to be at the disposal of the Colonial Legislature, has been applied witiiout appropriation, and partly to new and unnecessary expenditure. Besides advances to a great amount, made 10 years ago, remain unsettled. Have you put any information upon paper, which you are desirous of com- municating to this Committee ? — I have. Will you be good enough to refer to that Paper, and to state to the Committee the information which it contains? — In 1760 Canada was surrendered by the French government at Montreal by capitulation, providing that the inhabitants should preserve their property of every description and become British subjects. In 1763 Canada was ceded by the French King, providing for the freedom of the Catholic religion, &c. In 17(3.3, a proclamation of the King, promising the benefit of the laws of England, and a Representative Assembly as in the other colonies. In 1774, the Quebec Act of 14 Geo 3, c. 83, delaring ancient laws of Canada in iotce. The Quebec Revenue Act of 14 Geo. 3, c. 88. In 1778, the Declara- tory Act for the application of duties by Colonial Legislatures. In 1791, the Constitutional Act, 31 Geo. 3, c. 31, establishing a Representative Assembly and a Legislative Council, and empowering His Majesty during the continuance of the Act, with their advice and consent, to make laws for the peace, welfare and good government of the province. In 1793, the first Revenue Act passed in the colony for the expenses of the Legislature. In 1794, April 19th, the message from the governor for the entire repeal of the Revenue Act of 1 774, " as soon as the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada shall have passed laws laying the same or other duties to an equal amount to those which are payable under the Act, and such laws shall have obtained the Royal Assent, the King's Ministers will be ready to propose to Parliament a repeal of the Act above mentioned." In 1 705 the second Revenue Act passed, appropriating .'jiOuo /. sterling annually, for the administration of justice. In 1799, .Fune 3d, an Act passed agreeable to tlie message of April 29th, 1794, to be in force iis soon as the repeal is made known by proclamation of the governor, &c. This Act is perpetual, and appropriates 11,799/. '8*- ^i^- per annum for tlie general expenses of Government. In 1809 the expenses of the ('ivil Government were rapidly increasing, and had doubled in 14 years, namely, from about 20,000/. to about 40,000/. The Assem- bly addressed the King to be charged with all the expenses, part of which had before been paid by the mother country. Jn 1818 the Assembly was in His Majesty's name required to provide for the expenses of tiie Civil Government, on an estiniate, amounting to about (16,000/. sterling, and it voted to complete the entire sum required for that year by address, which it covered by a bill, which passed the following year. In 1819 the governor required an increased expenditure for tlic Civil Government of about 16,000/., which the Assembly refused; but voted and passed a bill on the footing of the expenses of the former year, with the exclusion of the allowances of some sinecurists and absentees, some of which were afterwards changed into pensions on recommendation of the Government. Since this time the bills sent up annually by tlie Assembly providing for the civil expenditure have been constantly rejected, with the exception of 1822, in which year a representation was forwarded by the Assembly to His Majesty, explaining the grounds upon which it declined granting any additional supplies otherwise 9 than ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 165 ■than annually, as had hitherto been required of it by message of the goyemor-in- •chief, and excepting also in 1823 in part, and 1825, when the Supply Bill passed by the Assembly became a law during the administration of Sir Francis Burton. The supplies permanently appropriated by the Colonial Legislature are the proceeds ■of the Act of 1793, amounting to about 2,000/. annually for the expenses of the Legislature, and ^lOOo /. sterling annually for the administration of justice. The local Government claims also the territorial revenue given to the colony of His late Majesty, 29 April 1 794, *' to be applied towards defraying the civil expenses of the province," amounting to about 5,000/. annually, and the amount of the proceeds of the Quebec Revenue Act of 1774, before mentioned, which proceeds, by taking away in 1822 a drawback formerly allowed on exportations from the colony to the VVest Indies, has increased from about 10,000/. to about 20,uoo/. annually. The whole of these sums the exe^ative has lately claimed to apply in such amounts as it pleases, to such expenses as it deems to be expenses of the Civil Government, and the administration '. f justice, without consulting the Assembly, and it calls on the Assembly to provide the deficiency. The Assembly, on the other hand, insists that no items form part of the expenses of government generally without its concurrence. In the mean time, since 1819, (with the excep- tion of 1823 and 1825 above mentioned) the governor has paid such deficiencies as he thought proper out of the monies which he acknowledges to be at the dis- posal of the Colonial Legislature, to the amount of about 140,000/., leaving nothing or next to nothing for local improvements, education, or other pressing wants of the country. You have stated that the claims on the part of the governor have only been made lately ; that would appear to imply that the governor had originally recognized the right of the province to appropriate all the monies? — In 1819 it was so un- derstood, that the Legislature of Lower Canada should have the control over the whole expenses. How does that appear ?— It appears by the message and estimates of that year. By the Act of 1819, was there not an appropriation of the whole revenue of the colony made by the legislative assembly? — In 1819, an Act was passed appro- priating to the amount of 40,000 /. to make up the deficiency between the appro- .priated revenues and the expenses of Government, because those appropriated revenues were insufficient. Did it include any clause similar to that which was inserted in the Act of the year 1825?— I do "ot exactly recollect the clause, but I think it was similar to that; the bill of 1819 was to cover the expenses of the preceding year, which had been expended upon the address of the House. What was done in the year 1820? — There was no session in 1820. In 1821, a bill was passed bv chapters, voting the whole expenses of the Government, and applying the appropriated revenues to form a part of it. When do you consider the Government first to have made a claim to a permanent appropriation of a part of the revenue? — In 1822, the Governor, by a message to the Assembly, stated that he had in his power certain revenues which he would apply to certain expenses of the Government, and requesting the legislature to make a provision for local establishments which form no part of the civil govern- ment, and among the items for which the Assembly was required to provide, which form no part of the civil government, was the expenses of the legislature of the colony. In the year 1818, when the Governor called upon the province to supply monies for tiie support of the whol« of the civil government, did he not promise some conditions on his part, and were those conditions complied with ? — The demand upon the Assembly of that day was to make provision generally for the expenses of the Government, It was understood at that time, that since tlie Assembly were charged with the whole expenses of the civil government of the colonj . 'be whole of the means should be at its disposal. We considered as part of the mc .ns those revenues that were already partly appropriated to that purpose. Did not the Governor promise that the Act of 1774 should be repealed? — Not in 1 81 8 ; in 1 794, the Governor in his message to the Legislature at that time stated, that as soon as the Legislature of Upper Canada and that of Lower Canada shall have laid the same or other duties equal in amount, His Majesty's Ministers would recommend to Parliament a repeal of the Act of 1774; in 1799, an Act of that 'description passed the Legislature of Lower Canada, and received the Royal ^^ij. X 3 sanction. Auitin Cuvillkr^ Esq. la Jupe i8l>. i66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Autin CmiKer, Etq. n June i8s8. sanction. That Act is in our statute book, and it now remains tbr the firitiah Parliament to repeal the Act of 1 774) in order to have a permanent appropriation of 12,000/. Do you conceive, supposing the revenue Act of 1 774 now to be repealed, that the legislature would have a control over the permanent appropriation which was then provisionally voted ? — There is some doubt upon that point I must confess ; I would decidedly say, yes; but that is only an individual opinion. Can you give the Committee a general statement of the present state of the population and representation in Lower Canada? — The population of Lower Canada, according to the census taken conformably to legislative enactment in 1 824, was about 430,000. There were numerous omissions in this first census. The population was then upwards of 500,000 ; it must now be about 600,000. About nine -tenths of these live by agricultural labour, on their own land, say are proprietors to the extent of from 60 to 1 20 arpents. The ground is covered with snow about six months in the year ; they are, however, able to live with some comfort, and rear numerous families. The incomes from lands, where the owner does not work himself, are trifling. There may be a few hundred proprietors who get annually as rent for land, to the value of from 1 00 /. to 300/. The prin- cipal revenues from land are seignenrial revenues, they amount from 100/. a year 4o 1,500/. which is about the highest. The other tenth are connected with the towns in which the majority of the inhabitants are proprietors of houses and lots. The wealthiest have incomes from 500/. to 2,000/. a year; of the latter there are but very few indeed. The trading classes, generally, have been rather sinking than gaining money of late vears. The representation was hxed by the governor's proclamation in 1792 at 50, and the whole province included in the division of counties. Since this time a number of townships on the frontiers of the United States have been settled by American emigrants. Between these settlements and the old settlements there was and still is, in several directions, many miles of wilderness. Since the late war vast sums of public money have been expended and called for to open roads for them to the St. Lawrence, the greatest part of which has been use- lessly spent. About ten years ago these people wished to have representatives^ distinct from the old Canadian settlements, vithin the counties in which die townships are placed. Since 1818 bills have been almost annually sent up by the Assembly to the Legislative Council, to increase and apportion the represen- tation of the nrovincf, and set oflf the townships in separate counties ; with this bill the townships generally have declared themselves satisfied, but the bills were lost in the Legislative Council. These townships contain by census about 30,000 souls. You arc aware that a proportion of the lands in Canada are held upoB the tenure of free and common socage ? — ^The lands in the townships are under that tenure. Have not all the lands p^ranted since 1791 been granted upon that tenure? — I believe there was no grants in free and common socage earlier than 1796; between 1774 and 1791, I think there were two grants under seigncurial titles. The King's instructions as late as 1786 were to grant en jicf et seigneurie. The whole may i)e seen in the land report in Assembly's Journal of 1 824. Supposing the owner of lands held in free and common socage were to die intestate, according to what law do you hold that his property would descend to his children? — Ilithcrlo it has been considered that the property would descend to the children agreeably to the laws of Canada, but since the passing of the .\ct of tlie 6 (Jeo. 4, c. ;)0, commonly called the Tenures Act, it is under- stodd tliut the property wonld descend according to the laws of England, because thnt Alt made the laws of Kngland applicable to lands in Canada held uuder that tenure. That Act lias a retroactive efl'ect, which will throw the country into great confusion if it is acted upon. In wliiit way will that confusion arise? — It will arise in annulling a vast num- ber of sales that have been made by the sherifl's and otherwise, which hitherto have been ron«idered lepal ; If will destroy the rights of minors and absentees, the lights of women and persons interdicted, and creditors who have lent money under the supposition that the laws of Canada applied to those townships, aud that the pro|)erty would be divided according to the laws of Canada. Can you state any statute upon which the belief was fdfunded that the French law ah ON THE aViL GOVSRNMENT OF CANADA. i$7 kw applied U> lands held in free and common socage r — I confess that the Act of 1774 contains in the shape of a proviso an enactment that nothing therein shall extend to lands held or to be held in free and common socage in Lower Canada ; but it could never have been the intention of Parliament to establish in the colony two systems of law, and the judges have uniformly, upon that principle, decided that the lands under the free and common socage tenure, should be regulated hj the laws of Canada. To what decisions of the judges do you allude ? — In consequence of the decisions of the judges, all lands that were disposed of by sheriffs sales have come under the operation of the laws of Canada. Is there any more specific and direct decision upon the subj'-ct ? — I do not know that the question has been properly raised in any of the courts of justice la Canada. Is it considered as legally established that the property in the townships is sub- ject to the French law ? — I believe that in one or two townships, particularly in the township of Hull, where there are some Canadian settlements, the laws of Canada have been applied to their property ; they have inherited it in the manner and form that is prescribed by the laws of Canada, and that inheritance and transCer of pro> perty has been held good. Was there any dispute upon the subject? — There was no dispute about it ; be- cause there was no diU'erence of opinion upon the subject till the Act of the 6th of the King. Are the Committee to conclude that you are not aware of any decision of a court of law upon the disputed point? — I do not know that the question has ever been raised in the colony. Has the course of inheritance in the townships been practically according to the French law ? — It has. Can you assert that of your own knowledge ? — I am no lawyer, and I have never been concerned in any suit in which that question has been raised. On what ground do you form the opinion that it could not have been the intention of the Legislature, by the provisions of the Act of the 14 Geo. 3, to establish two different systems of law in the colony, with respect to real property ? — Because of tlie impossibility of acting under two systems of laws without producing the greatest confusion. Besides it would be unreasonable to suppose that Parliament intended to introduce the law of England into a country already regulated by a diiierent system, without at the same time enabling those who were to be guided by the law, to know what were the new laws introduced. Are you not aware that the law of gavelkind and of borough English applies to certain property in England, and that the law of free and common socage applies to the greater part of the country, and that no inconvenience is found from that diversity of law ? — I have heau'd of a great many different descriptions of tenure in Englcm!, and I believe that the people are very sorry that there are so many. Judging from a speech which I have read, as lately delivered in Parliament, I should not think the laws of England as existing at present desir- able fcr Canada. Will you state what, in your opinion, would be the inconveniences which would arise from the English law of descent to real property prevailing in the townships at the same time that the French law prevailed within the seigneuries ? — I have already stated that there would result confusion in the courts of justice if they were called upon to act under two different systems of laws, and I believe the legal division of the districts is such now as to prevent the exact operation of the English and French laws conjointly. Would there be any difficulty in defining the different districts in which the different ry stems were to prevail ? — It is not impossible. Would tliere be any difficulty in establishing different courts, in which the two different systems of law respecting real property might be administered ? — None. Would any confusion arise in that case? — Not if the new courts were located in the country wherein the free and common socage tenure prevailed, and if the law of England applied to that particular territory. Does not the law of England already prevail partially by custom in the townships? — I believe that in the townships neither the law of England nor any other law is known ; they have been in a great measure without law in that 569. X 4 country Aihtit CmUlitr, 13 June i8st. JutttH Cuvillitr, Eig. 19 June 1838. 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE country since their establishment. The laws, I believe, that are now preval'— t in the United States of America are the laws which they understand best. Have the English laws prevailed with respect to the descent of property by custom? — I am not aware that they have prevailed generally ; there might have been some instances of it, but several of the people who hold lands in the town- ships hold them without titles ; they are mere sc^uatters ; persons in possession of land that have no titles ; they sell to each other, but thoy sell the improvements only ; to make use of a word common to them, they sell the Itettermenls ; they never sell the land itself, they sell the mere possession, and the improvements. Do you mean to apply that generally to all the townships in Lower Canada? — I believe that in more than one half of all the townships there is not one man in ten that has 11 legal title under the Cth Geo. IV. c. ,'59, probably one third may have an equitable claim to the land from possession. Are there no settlers in the townships who have improved land which they have acquired lawfully under Government grants ? — There are no doubt some who have made considerable improvements ; 1 know a gentleman there that has .spent a fortune upon the improvement of land, of which he got a grant from the Government; Mr. Felton. How do you account for the circumstance of there being so few settlers in Lower Canada, and ior the great preference which is shown by English settlers to go to Upper Canada ? — There are various causes for that ; in the first place tho climate of Upper Canada is better, they have their friends there in greater numbers. Those emigrants from Ireland who are Roman Catholics generally prefer remaining in Lower Canada ; Protestants prefer going to Upper Canada ; but I do not consider that there is any thing in the laws of the country that prevents their settlement in Lower Canada. Is there any thing which, in your opinion, discourages their settlement in Lower Canada, without absolutely preventing it? — I believe that the climate is the most discouraging thing. How do you account for the circumstance of there being no settlers in the townships except the persons that you describe us squatters, and one or two individuals whom you describe as having laid out money upon the improvement of land; is the difference of climate alone sufficient to account for it, or is there any objection to the system of French law ? — I do not believe that the existing system of law forms any bar to the actual settlement of the country in the town- ships ; because I do not know that there has been any increase of settlement in the townships since the passing of the Act of the ()th of the present King, which declares the lands in those townships to be under the operation of the laws of England. What, in your opinion, will be the effect of that provision in the Canada Tenures Act, which enables indiv;duals in the scigneiirics to change the tenure of their property, and to hold it in free and common socage ? — There is an objection in my mir ' to the commutation on the part of the seigneur; the seigneur in Lower Canada holds the property in iiust for actual settlers, and the oH'ect of the commutation would be to make him the proprietor of that which he holds in trust only for actual settlers. Will you explain what you mean by the seigneur holding in trust only for actual settlers? — The concession of almost all the seigneurics in Lower Canada was made originally by the French King, unon the condition that the seigneur should grant the lands on demand to actual settlers, upon a very small annual rent; and upon his refusal the property is escheated to the Crown, who on ai)plicution grants it to actual settlers. Tiiere have been sonic decisions upon that subject in the courts of justice in Cansida before the Conquest, where the seigneurs have refused to concede, and the property so refused to be conceded was reunited to the domain of the King. At the same time that the seigneur was called upon to allow settlers to settle upon his land, subject to the payment of a small rent, was not he on his part called upon to pay a certain rent to the Crown? — The only dues which u sei«:neur pays to the Crown is the Droit t/c Quint, which is paid only upon siile of the seigncury. You are aware that the 'I'enure Act is not compulsory, but it is only giving facilities to parties who wish to change their right of property ? — 1 understand it so. , h V ^^ i' ON THK CIVn< (iOVEilNMENT OF CANAHA. 169 Is not tlie proposition shortly expressed as follows : that a seigneur is placed in possession of his land upon the tenure of free and common socage, at a certain rate of payment, subject to liis being compelled to consent to convert the land of his sub-tenant into free and common socage, upon the receipt uf such an award as shall be made by arbitration upon a given principle ? — I nave already observed, that I thought the power given to the seigneur to commute was an unjust one ; that it was converting to his own use that which was only given to him in trust. The obligation on his part to commute with his sub-tenant would naturally follow the commutation with the Crown, as a matter of course ; on the other hand, I hardly think that the seigneur would find it his interest to submit, on his refusing to change the tenure of his sub-tenant, to an arbitration of the nature uescribed by the Act. Then you consider that the Canada Tenures Act will be inoperative, inasmuch as it will not be the interest of any seigneur to comply with the terms? — 1 do so, in a great measure. If they were complied with, do you think it would retard the settlement and the cultivation of the land ? — I do not think that the holding lands in seigneury is at all detrimental to settlements ; on the contrary, I think it facilitates settlements. Do not the seigneurs ever settle and cultivate the land themselves? — Most of the seigneurs reside on their seigneuries ; they find it to their advantage. Should you consider those seigneurs to be holding their lands in trust for settlers?— All the seigneurs hold their lands for actual settlers except a domain, which they are allowed to hold for their own use. Do you mean that they are practically trustees, or only theoretically ? — They are theoretically and practically trustees ; the lands were given to them upon the condition of re-granting to actual settlers ; because, if the seigneur refuses to grant any lands to an applicant, that person making complaint to the Crown would have the power of getting that particular land annexed to the domain, and obtain the grant from the Crown at the usual dues. In case of a seigneur having settled and cultivated tlic land himself, is he l)ound to grant that land to a sub-tenant on demand? — lie is not, because he performs the actual settlement duties. The object of conceding the land was for the actual settlement of it; if he were to cultivate the whole land himself he would cease to be a trustee, yuc ad the particular part he cultivates. 'i'h^n with regurd to the land he has cultivated the same motives would not exist against converting it into free and common socage? — Certainly not, if he could have i.ny motive for it. Has not a seigneury sometimes become vested in more than one pro[)rietor ? — : Ves ; the seigneuries have been very much sub-divided. Suppo.'iing one of them will not consent to any application which is made for a piece of waste land r — There is another difficulty which the Tenure Act has not surticiently provided for. Where there are co-proprietors in a seigneury held par indevis, the consent of the whole of the proprietors must be had to obtain a change of tenure. In respect to application for waste lands, the person in possession of the manor is the only one that applicants have to deal with while there is not a legal partition. Do the petitioners whom you represent complain of the composition of the Legislative Council? — They do. Of what do they complain? — They complaiu-that the majority of the members of the Legislative Council are persons holding places of profit during pleasure, and in consequence of that they are not considered independent of the Crown. How do they propose to remedy it r — I do not know tnat their opinion has been taken upon that particular point. I can only give it as my opinion to the Com- mittee that if it were not expedient to make the Legislative Council elective ccrt^'nly the judges ought to be excluded from that body, and also the collectors and receivers of revenue, and the auditors of accounts. If on the other hand the Legislative Council were to be elective, a certain qualification of course would be requisite in the electors, and a certain qualification for the members ; but decidedly certain descriptions of persons ought not to be elected in the council, for instance, collectors and receivers of the revenue. In the event of the appointment of the Legislative Council remaining still in the Crown, would you not think it desirable to carry the exclusion of placemen, and persDiis lioldiuj^- employ nieiils under the Ciovcrrmient,.beyoud that of the judges and -,(19, V ' receivers, Aiutin CuvUlitr, la June i8i8> »7o MINUTES OF KVIDENCE DEFORE SELECT COMMriTEE AuiHit CtmOiir, Emi. 19 JUM 1848. receivers, and collectors of revenue? — I should consider that for the better seeming the independence of that body, all future appointments to the council should be made subject to be vacated on the acceptance of an oltice of profit during pleasure. Supposing the appointment of the Legislative Council to remain still in tiie hands of the Croun, should you not think it desirable that persons holding offices under the Government, should form only a portion of the Legittktive Council ? — They should certainly form by far the least portion of the council so as to have a majority of independent men. Would you consider that a greater .security would be eflected in that way than by making the Legislative Council elective, and the members holding their seats for life? — With regard to that, I would not wish the Legislative Council to be elective. How many persons are there in Canada who from character and property are qualified to be members of the Legislative Council r — There are a greot many persons that might be called to the council now, with great advantage to the Government and to the country ; there* are several large landed proprietors, men of good education who might be serviceable in that capacity. Are the majority of those persons of French extraction? — Decidedly; there are very few large English proprietors in the country ; they come to the country for the purposes of trade, and their object is to acquire something easily trans- ferable. Will you state your objections to making the Legislative Council elective ? — I think it would make that body rather dependent upon the people, and I should like to see them independent of the people and of the Crown. Would not that dependence upon the people be done away with by their holding their seats for lifer — Certainly, if they were elected, and that election lasted during their natural life, they would cease to depend upon the people. Do you think that the principle of election might be advantageously introduced into the composition of the Legislative Council, by making not the whole council elective, but a part of it ? — If the composition of that l)ody could be so changed as to render it independent without an election, I would prefer it. Do you imagine, that in case of any measures being passed by the Parliament or the Government at home, materially affecting the constitution of the province of Canada, that the province would be very ill disposed to receive such meab iies without having first had an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon them. I consider the constitution of the governments of Upper and Lower Canada, as a compact between the mother country and the colonies, a kind of compact which cannot be changed without the consent of all parties. I should consider that any change whatever in the constitution of government of Lower Canada, without the inhabitants being previously consulted would be very ill received by them. Have not tlic inhabitants of Lower Canada petitioned the Houses of Parlia- ment to make certain alterations in their constitution ? — I believe not ; on the contrary they pray that no change whatever shall take place. Generally speaking, do you not consider that the inhabitants of Lower Canada attribute the disorders and discontents that have taken place, not to the constitution itself, but to the manner in which that constitution has been admi- nistered ? — Certainly ; there is no doubt but that the form of government under which they now live is admirably well calculated to ensure their happiness, if it is properly administered. Do you believe that is the opinion entertained of it in the townships ? — The townships, I believe, have complained. I do not know whether the complaints come from themselves, or whether they are made to complain. Generally I have not heard any complaint in the colony against the laws. In the complaint which the petitioners make of the composition of the Legis- lative Council, do they not conceive that they are requiring the Legislative Council to be so composed, as it was intended to be composed by the Act of 1791? — It was no doubt intended that tlie Legislative Council should, in imitation of the House of Lords here, be an independent body, that should have a Stake and interest in the country, and would rise and fall with it; but it is the reverse in Canada ; those people arc not independent of the Crown as the House of Lords is here ; they are men directly dependent on the Oown, the minority ON THK CIVIL (iOVEHNMKNT OF CANADA. '7» majority havii)|!f places of profit during pleaMure, that i«, they are actually depen- dent on the local governmont. Do not the people of Lower Canada consider the want of a security for proper nominations to the Legislative Council as a defect in tlie constitution of the colony f — The persons that havt* been called to the Legislative Council have been called in virtue of the royal prerogative ; the nomination, no doubt, muat in some nioa.sure come from the colony, and although the Government here may have every dispositiuii to nominate persons to lliiit body, who are perfectly inde- pendent, yet they are ri<(iuently exposed to eiror, and from iiiisinformaMon a number of people are called to it who ought not to be there. Seeing the manner in which the prerogative has bceu exercised, do not you think that it requires some check ? — No doubt. I should conceive that the sys- tem of appointment to the Council, if it were necessary that any enactment of law should take place upon the subject, should be qualified, by requiring that the persons appointed should have a certain landed annual income. Would not that be a change in the constitution of the colony ? — Certainly not ; because it was intended that the large landed proprietors of the country should form an intermediate body between the Assembly and the Crown; there is no doubt, that upon instructions being sent from this country to the colony a bill might be introduced requiring certain qualifications in the members of the Legis- lative Council. You state, that you consider the constitution of Canada as a compact between two bodi<-' which cannot be altered without the consent of botli ; 'do you cany that opinmn so far as to hold that no alteration of the Act of 1791, could be made by the Hritish Parliament without the consent of the Assembly of Lower ('iinada ? — I consider that the Parliament, in the exercise of its general superin- tending power, has u right to legislate for the colonies generally ; but with regard to internal legislation, the Imperial Parliament has virtually given up that powe.'*, with respect to Upper and Lower Canada, in giving them an Act whereby they hiive the power of legislating for the peace, welfare, and good government of the country. il' the Act of i7()i is to be considered a solemn cmitract, to which three parties have been consentient, namely the Parliament of Cireat Britain and the two i^gisiutures uf the two colonies, arc the Committee, to understand that those clauses wliicii relate to the reservation of land for the clergy, and which form part and parcel of that solemn compact, it is not in the power of the Parliament tocluuige? — In that respect I verily believe that the Parliament has the power of changing tliat part of it which has reference to the lands ; these and some other matters are specially reserved in the Act. Supposing it be admitted that the Act of 1791 had the character of a formal compact, do you mean to state it as your opinion, that with a view to the benefit of those provinces, it i^ not constitutionally in the power of the Parliament of Cireat Britain, to legislate upon the subject of the government of the Canadas ? — As to the power I do not deny it. The right may be questioned, and the expe- diency is more than doubtful. Do you attach the same importance which one of the former witnesses did to the neces»>ity of having an agent in this country for the colony of Lower Canada? — I think it most essentially necessary, inasmuch as Great Britain has reserved to itself the right uf regulating our commerce, that there should be an agent here tu attend to the interests of the colony. How do you think that agent should be appointed?— By the Legislature of tiixe colony. Do you mean by both branches of the Legislature ? — The truth is, that no Act making provision for the appointment of an agent can take place without the con-' sent of the three Branches. The agents, generally speaking, who represent some of the colonies, have been nominated by the representative assemblies. If any great objection were made to the appointment, one might be appointed by the Assembly, and the other by the Legislative ( Council, so that the country would have the benefit of two agents instead of one; but I verily believe that the Assembly would not consent to the payment of an agent, of whom they had not the choice. There arc certain items of charge of salaries to individuals to the payment of which the A.ssembly have objected, as considering that the situations filled by those individuals are unnecessary ; are you of <>pinion that if those salaries x^ere 569, V 2 discontinued, \% Juno 181B. fibi, 172 MINUTHS OK KVIDK.NCK HKIOliK SKLl'T COMMITIEE AiuhM Cuiiilifr, II June iSiR. ducnntintuul, and tlio«t> situdli us done away with at tlic expiration of the lives of the nnrtie!« (loldinK tliufir salaries, tliere would be any disposition nn the part of the ANienibly to pny them during the 'ives of the parties? — The Asseinbly have already done so in some instances, when it was required of them ; and I verily believe tliiittliey would linve no objection to convert those salaries into pensions; for myself I should decidedly vote for it; I verily believe there would be no ob- ji'ction, provided that nil the other grievances were removed. " Sobbuti ir dk Jiinii, 1H98. The He.. Croibit Morgtil. 14 June 1IJ8. 1 The Kcv. Ciosbie Mor^d/, culled in ; und Examined. WKIll'. vou (JImplain to the iiishop of Quclwc ?— 1 was. How long were you resident in (,'iinHda -— From the month of June i8a6 to the monlli of liecember 1 S27. Were you chaplain to the Dishop of Quebec the whole of that |)criod ? — I was ; 1 went out with his Lordship from this country. Had you any opportunity duriD^ your residence in Canada of becoming personally acquHinU^I with the ecclesiusticul condition of those provinces r — 1 had every opportunity Six montli!* (>t the time that I was resident with the bishop I was employed mi travelling through the country ; we performed two summer and one winter visitation ; in the course of those Journies we visited every clergyman in the •lioccsc, exceptin)» live in Lower Canada and eleven in Up|)er Cauuda. When we were not occupied in visitation there was continual correspondence going on, througli me, between the bishop and the clerfiy. How many clergymen did you actually visit in each province? — Twenty-two in Lower Canada and twenty-Hve in Upper Canada. Have you got any memorandum of the actual residence of the clergymen whom you visited in Lower Canada ? — It is stated in the Report of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospt>l in Foreign Farts. The station of each clergyman will be found in the synopsis of the society's missionaries and catechists. Can you explain to the Committee the manner in which those clergy in Lower ('anada are paid ? — They receive, with, 1 think, two exceptions, a salary of 300 /. while in priests orders ; as deacons only 100/. ; their drafts being honoured in this country by the treasurer of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts ; and, in speaking of the clergy of Canada, I beg leave to say, that all my information respecting tlmm refers to those in tlic service of that society. Have they any other advantages besides the receipt of that 200/. a year ? — They have fees on marriages, burials, and nothing else. These fees in the country parts seldom, 1 imagine, exceed 20/. ycnriy ; at Montreal and at Quebec they amount to a larger sum. There are some few clergymen in Canada who are not paid by the society. The rector of Montreal, the rector of Queliec, and the military chaplains, derive their incomes from other sources. In Upper Canada all the clergy, except the military and naval chaplains, are paid in the way I state. Do the clergy in Louer Canada reside on jilche, that is to say, do they reside on any part, or portion of the clergy reserves r — 1 hey may perhaps rent a lot, but they are not authorized, as clergy, to reside upon any such glebe lands. Then they reside in the most convenient position which they can find with respect to their several congregations ? — They do ; first, with respect to their church, and next with respect to the congregations which they are directed to visit, and which may he at considerable distances from the t'urch. With respect to the churches ; at whose expense have those churches been erected ? — A few of the leading people in a settlement who are desirous of having amongst them a resident clergyman of the Church of England, draw up a petition, addressed to the Dishoj) of Quebec, in which they state the circumstance. This is generally accompanied by a proposal to build a church if their wishes respecting a clergyman are complied with ; tiicn follow the names of the persons who are willing to become subscribers to that church ; if there is a sufiicient sum, the Bishop of Quebec, from the fund which he himself raised in this country, promises them 100/. when the church, as it is expressed in that country, is closed in, namely, when the boards, of w liich the sides are compo.sed, are put up. Had you the means of ascertaining the number of persons who u.Hually attended the by of Kc thi thi pi, It til UN Tin: CIVIL tJOVKKNMr.NT OF CANADA. <73 the coiigrc^atioiii of tliuitu iiiiniitti'r-. of tlic Church of KiiglaiHl no lucatcii in the ciiuotiy i'— In Lower Canada there arc two different descriptions of country in wliicli oui cltTfty reside. In one the great masit of the people arc Ron)an Catholics ; throughout this Itoinan Catholic population is scattered a great number of persons who are adherents of the Church of Englatid. Many of them are at very great distances from each other, and from the clergymen of the dif trict, and perhaps may nut he able to come to church with any degree of regularity. Wherever a certain utimber of them are to be found in any one spot, the clergyman t^ues and officiates. IIJH rcttiilence is commonly among the larger proportion. Such congregations in the country places, although there may be several of them, are small. I think that there arc not more than four clergymen so situated in l/)wer Canada. There is indeed one at 'I'hrec Rivers, but Three Rivers is a town, and contain!* a conside* rabic ProtcHiunt |iopulation : there is one also at William Henry, which likewise is a town Himilarly oituatcd. Of the four I have alluded to one lies in the district of Gasp^*, one at Reviirc du Loup, and the other at the river of L'.AHsumption, the fourth at CIminbly, In these parts the population is, with few exceptions, French Roman Catholics, and therefore our clergy have not at any one time such large congregations as elsewhere. But I have said that in Lower Canada there is another description of population : it is found to the soutii of Quebec. The district is generally designated the Eustern Townships. Here the population is iion-Koinan Catholic, and is composed cliieDy of emigrants from the United States. Our congregations in those parts generally amount to from i ,50 to 300 on an average. In the spring and in the autumn they do not amount to any thing like that number, owing tu tlic bad state of the roads in those seasons ; the snow in the autumn not being suiViciently deep and trodden down to enable people to pass along ; and in the spring the gradual melting of the snow produces the same enect. But tliere is u general moile of ascertaining the congregation, which is applicable in a general way to almost every country, as far as our church is concerned. It is Uiis ; discover the number of communicants, which is very easily ascertained ; multiply that number by six, and you have the congregation ; and that multiplied again by two will give you tlic number of adherents to the church. Now, in order to show that this is u right calculation, I would instance one case ; I take that of St. Andrew's, in I^wer Canada. In a late report from this mission the communi- cants are stated at 32 ; that number multiplied by six will show the congregation ; that is, it will give 193. Do you mean to apply '' al calculation to both the Canadas ? — Yes, to both the Canadas ; and I should go 1 nrther an"8 TktlUv. Vrotbit MorgM. 14 JuM llll. !< Jane |8^H. 174 MINUTES ()!• EVIDKNCK BEFOllE SELECT COMMITTEE The Rev. >ng ^o t'le calculation. Now in the letter I I'sv.; luentionud, tiie bishop of Quebec OrtHUe Morgell. States, that the Episcopalians in the Perth settlements are '2,i.wi personal observation, that there is a prevailing desire among the Protestants of Lower Canada to attach themselves to the national church rather than to any other? — I should say there arc two national churches as far as this empire is concerned, that of England and that ot Scotland. I have stated that the population, generally speaking, have known previously but little about the Churcii of England until a resident minister has been placed among them. I have also said, that they have by degrees been led to adopt this form uf worship, or have at least attended it. What might be the case with regard to the national churcli of Scotland we cuiuiot say, as tiie colonists can only know it in theory from the Scotch emigrants. Hut that the people of Lower Conada have no prevailing desire for it is plain from the case of Montreal, where a church of American Presbyterians exist, although there arc in the place two resident kirk ministers. What church had the people been connected with previously to their joining your church ? — Ofeverv possible di'-icription of df"i Jiiiinution. Persons coming irom evcrjf <^unty m Ireland, and from every couii.y in England and Scotland, many Mm i ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »75 many from the United States necessarily brinj.^ with tliem a multitude of religious opinions ; and no one denomination being sufficiently strong o support a minister they are sure to adopt generally any church w iiose cleijiv ar' not chargeable to them, provided only you give the church which you establish sufficient time to take root among them, Docs any particular form of worship prevail with, iliem ?— I think that until one of our clernymen has been established amongst them, they are Methodists chiefly. What de.:cription of Methodists ? — Not Wesleyan Me'iiodisls, according to our idea in this country. They are in country places ino>>t wild in their religious worship, they have camp meetings constantly : during *hicli they will stay out in the woods for a whole week, ani continue their religious exercises, praying, singing and preaciiing the whole time, night and day. Thev call tbewtMlves Episcopal Methodists. What system of church government ha^e they ? — They have a per or who cails himself a bishop, having derived tiiat ordt^i from the hands of Wesley originally. Wesley, if I recollect right, sent out a numl>er of persons, whom he styled bishops, to America. Such a bishop presides over a district : there are several preachew and lay-assistants under him. liuvc they any constant communication with the Americans in the United States? — They have hitherto o'ways had connection with the American Methodists of the United States. But oi late I perceive from a document to which I have had access, that they have begun to withdraw from that connection. It ■■• very de- sirable that they should do so, for they are certainly, notwithstanding fiv^ir wild- ness :md extravagance in many respects, the most useful and most numer<>>is sect in Vj pper Canada. Have th^y chiefly emigrated fro n England ? — No ; they have come chiefl} rom the United States. They have gradually iiiciciised in Canada ever since the country has been opened. The iirst settlers may have been churchmen, or of other denominations, and as they have died away, their children have adopted the persuasion of the itinerant preachers, being the only form of religion within thei reach. Are those persons to be found all through Upper Canada? — They are. Tfiere arc a few of the oUI settlements where the people are Lutherans, and Quakers. Some Scotch settlements are Presbyterians. Of the population of Upper Canada do you believe that a large portion has come from the United States r — Till the lust emigrations by far the greasttst part of the old settlers were from the I'nited States. .Most of them were loyalists after the American rebellion. In the account you have given of the prevalence of this particular desciiptioi. of dissenters, do you mean it to be understood that they art confined principally to the eastern to wnship.s in Lower Canada? — No. They are to be found in almost every part of both jj-oviiices. There tiicy have decreased, because our ministers have beer^ so long in those settlements. Then you mean that they are to be found over Upper Canada ? — Over Upper Canada, and those in the eastei n townships, who do not belong to our communion, are generally Methodists. There arc, indeed, some few Baptists. Do those persons whom you describe as bein;^ willing to aitend the worship of the Church oi England, after a church has been estabiished in their neighbour- hood, cease to maintain an^ communication with their own aiinisters, and cease to aitend their meetings ? — No, they will attend preaching of any description. Not so our communicants, they adhere to us, and will not attend any other ministra* tions. IJul here I would beg leave to remark, that there are few or no regular ministers throughout the country besides those of the Church of England. The rest, excepting a smidl number in U|)pcr Canada, are itinerants. But the oll)ers, thoufji they will attend your service, still continue connected with their own ministers? — It depends upon what they nre. The Metiiodists often keep up their connection witli tlieir own people, and the American Presbyterian will attend us, hut all the time sny that he has not deserted his own church, though he may coninuinicate with us. Tlicre arc, however, hut a very small number of the American Pn^sbyterians; and tl.cy, in fact, in country settlements remain adherents of our church, and elsewhere, till an .'\iiierican Presbyterian minister is established a'loiig them, who is brought in fnmi the United Staes. In counti-y places thev cannot support such a minister, and liiu; their descendants The Rev Crotbie Morgell, 14 June iSaS. 509. become 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE n«Rev. CrotUe MorgeU. 14 June |8«8. become rooted in their attacliment to our church, having been educated from childhood in her communion. In that case would you consider them as regular adherents of your church ? — They attend no other ministrations, though if a Presbyterian preacher from the United States wan to come into the settlement, they might attend him. I say from the United States, because there is a great diftercnce between American Pres- byterians and those of Scotland. The United States Presbyterians will not coalesce with the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland, and I can quote several instances of the kind. Do you know why r~The ditl'erence of church government is one cause, and church discipline is another thing controverted. ° With respect to Presbyterians who have emigrated from Great Britain and Ire- land, do they ever conform to the Church of England? — Yes, the Irish Presby- terians wi'' ; and some instances are now fresh in my memory of persons so brought up in Ireland, asking permission to receive at our altar. Do the Scotch Presbyterians? — They will, where there is no minister of their own. They will not attend the ministrations of any other denomination, except those of the clergy of the Church of England, and of their own. Are they in the habit of attending the church till a minister of their own is appointed, and then withdrawing from it? — In Upper Canada there ore only six Scotch Presbyterian ministers, one of whom lias been ordained in the Church of England lately. In Lower Canada there'are only three. With the permission of the Committee I will explain what I would here sav, by stating the cases of Mon- treal in Lower Canada, and of Cornwall and of Kingston in Upper Candida ; we have had ministers in each of those places for some years ; at Montreal of course for a long lime; at Cornwalt about 10 or 12 years; at Kingston, |K;rhaps, much longer. In each of those places there arc Presbyterian congregations, and in each of them our people exceed considerably the Presbyterian congregation. At Mon- treal the wealthiest of our congregation were originally Presbyterians, but they have from the first conformed and adhered to the Church of England, and have not returned to the kirk, although there are two meeting houses in the place. At Cornwall our congregation so much exceeds the Presbyterian congregation, that it is well know n the Scotch minister could not find sufficient support to live there, did he not hold the governtncnt-schoul establishment in the place. lie has only one congregation to serve, whereus our missionary includes among tliose who profit by his ministrations upwards of S.50 souls. At Kingston, which is a |)eculiar case, there is a minister of ours and a minister of the Scotch kirk ; and, as a proof that the Presbyterians from the United States will not coalesce with Presbyterians from Scotland, it is observable that the former have got in a prcac!icr of their own from the United States, and our congregation is double as l.irgc, I am given to understand, as either of them. I will not say that it is larger than both together, though I have heaid it asserted. At Montreal it is precisely the same ; American Presbyterians have obtained a minister from the United Slates. These facts lend to show that if some few native Scotchmen should return to their national church on the coming of one of its ministers among lliem, our chiircli would not suffer by the circumstance. Are the United States Methodits Calvanists? — No, very much opposed to Calvanisrti, in the ordinary sense of the term, and for that reason the American Methodists will not unite with any Presbyterians, nor the Presbyterians with them There are no two Imdies of Christians more opposed to each other than the Pres- byterian? of Canada, who are Calvanists, and the Methodists who are altogether Anti-Calvinists. Are they Arminians ? — Thuy are strictly Arminians, and very controversial in respect of their doctrines. Do you consider all the denominations of Presbyterians to be Calvanistic? — I do. Their catechisms and other formula; appear to me to be so. Do the Presbyterians whom you desciii)e as conforming to the worship of the Church of England continue Culvunists after they conform?— I think they might not |K'rhaps be displeased if the cli rgy broached Calvanistic doctrines : but I am not aware that they do ; and ns there is no other form of vorship that these Pres- byterians likp so well, tliev attend their ministrations. Has tliut state of tliini;-. ;i tendency to incline the mini.stois to the adoption of Cttlviiiistic doctrine ?- 1 tliiiik not. Are to T ' ON THli CIVIL tiOVERNMENT OF CANADA. '77 Are the Committee to understand that there are to your knowledge but three Presbyterian ministers of ihe Chiircli of Scotland in Lower Canada f — I think there are but thre^, two at Montreal and one at Queb'*c. To the bent of your bel'ef, is the number you have stated the entire number of Scutch Presbyterian ministers in both the Canadas ? — To the best of my belief it is. Can you state Uie number of Presbyterian ministers of the other description ? — Twelve in Upper Canada ; I only know of two in Lower Canada. In stating the number of your congregations and adherents, do you reckon in those persons who occasionally attend your service but also attend the service of other churches ? — Yes, I reckon them amongst the congregations, if they attend with regularity the ministrations of uur clerjy. Whether they attend other congregations also, or not i — Yes. Hut it is only, save in a few instances, the itinerant preachers, they can Htteiul. You consider them as Episcopalians ? — I consider them us utlendants upon thit ministrations of an Episcopalian. And your calculation with regard to the number of Episcopalians is always to be taken with thiit inuler.itanding ? — I think so; because the people know nothing of the Church of Englaaci till it has been established some time among them; and they do not Hjjpear to legaiH. an occasional attendance on other forms of worship as mcompatibie witn their connection with that church. Are all the clergy>, aad there were The Rev. Crosbie Morgell. 14 June 1898, SL'vc'ial a|>|ihcalioii> nliii^t 1 was llii.ti To 178 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE The Rev. CrMbig Morgell. 14 June 1838. To what sect did those belong ? — Some were Lutherans, some Scotch dissenters, one kirk clergyman, and two Roman Catholic priests. To what circumstances do you attribute the secession ot so many clergymen from their own church, and their conversion to ours?— I must hope that they are the purest motives, but I cannot dive into niens thoughts. One cause, I should imagine, may be that their people desert them alter having brought them into the country with promises of support ; but when they come they find themselves without a means of living. Is any preference given to persons on account of their being converts ? — When a dissenting Tiinister can say that a great majority of his congregation will join our worship with him, he is received, if qualified. It is the case in one instance in Upper Canada, and in two in Lower Canada. Under other circumstances, any person applying for holy orders undergoes a severe scrutiny, and certainly has no preference given him because he has previously belonged to another communion. Is there any difficulty in procuring persons to sei-ve as clergymen in Canada, who have been educated in the doctrines of the Church of England ? — Certainly, I should say there is difficulty in procuring them in Great Britain. Is not that the reason why tiicy have been induced to take so many persons into the service of the church who have been formerly belonging to other denomi ^tions of Ctiristians r — When a mission becomes vacnnt it is very desirable to fill it up as quickly us possible, and if wp were to exclude all who have not been regularly educated in England we should have to wait sevtral months, and in the mean time sectarians woJld come in and perhaps disperse the congregation. Are you acquainted with the practical jurisdiction which the Clergy Corporation exercise over those land? called the clergy reserves, which were appropriated under the Act of 1791 in Lower Canada? — In Lower Canada they had the power of leasing in 1819; and I happen to know that they were not long since in debt to their secretary. Have you any general idea of the number of adherents of the Church of England m the province of Upper Canada r — I cannot form any idea of it. except from the calculation with which I have furnished the Committee; and this is dependant upon a knowledge of the number of communicants in the several missions. What proportion should you say they form of the whole population ?— The missionaries have told me that their congregations, except in the Fiench parts, amount to between 150 and 200 during the time when their roads are passable; but further information than that I cannot give respecting the number of Episco- palians in the Canadas ; I am not acquainted with the population of the Canadai, but I know that wherever I travelled I found persons who belonged to our church, and in many places where no clergyman had ever penetrated. Are you aware that the House of Assembly in Upper Canada liave repeatedly by a very great majority declared it expedient that the clergy reserves should be applied to the maintenance of the clergy of all Protestant religious persuasions, and not of that of the Church of England exclusively ? — I know that such resolu- tions have appeared in the public prints ; I attribute them, in part, to the smallness of the number of Episcopalians in the House of As.seinbly, compared with the united strength of all denominations in that House. The Houses of Assembly in Canada, like many other colonial Houses of Assembly, are not very well affected towards the Government, and the Church of England being inseparable from the Government, they of course oppose the Church of England for the sake of opposition to the Government. Was not there a formal vote of the House of Assembly carried by a majority of 37 to 3, that the church of England is the religion of a very small proportion of the {mpulation of Upper Canada?— I do not know, I have not attended much to the stale of things in the House of Assembly ; there might have been very few persons belonging to our church in the House of Assembly at the time. The House of Assembly is composed of 44 members ; of the Church of England there are 18; of the Church of Scotland there are 4 ; the rest are of various denominations. Do you take that from Archdeacon Strachan's report i' — It is from his bpeech in his place as a Iegii>lalivf councillor, and I belie, t.ie stuteir ■ nt Do not you know that that report is entirely contradicted by the resolutions of the House? — This is not the report alluded to; the one I hold u\ my hand has arrived within tlic lust few days. The circumstance I attest has been statrd iit York, where the Assembly iiiict'- IS. Lo^ I kee of I ren A of I m^ ck re^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »7& la the Committee to gather from your answers that you are very little acquainted with the relative proportions of the various sects in Upper Canada ?'~'I am acquainted with the number whicii attend the ministrations of our own clergy. In the visitation you made in the upper province did you personally inspect all the churches where you visited tJie clergymen ? — Yos, in all cases. In every instance of the 25 clergymen whom you visited were they resident and officiating in the church ? — Yes, certainly- Are you aware of the circumstances of the 1 1 others whom you did not visit? — Yes ; I should say that they were resident also ; 'n fact they cannot be otherwise than resident. Is that principle universally acted upon in Upper Canada as in Lower, of not sending a minister till a church is built? — It is now acted upon in all cases ; there is, however, one missionary who is employed without having any specific church, he goes all through the diocese ; I mean the visiting missionary. Excepting the fact of the number of earh congregation, you cannot give the Committee any information of the relative ]jroportion of the adherents to the Churcj of England to any other sect : — I can in one particular place ; but not generally. The Committee have before them a letter, signed by Mr. Rearson, who is the agent in this country for the Christians of different denominations in Upper Canada ; in his letter he states, amongst other things, that the adherents of the Episcopalian Church alone in Upper Canada do not exceed one tenth of the inhabitants of Upper Canada; do you believe that is correct? — We have a very small nmnber of clergy proportionate to the wants of the people, and of course it follows that the number of churchmen cannot bear a very large proportion to the whole of the inhabitants ; but the real adherents of the church exceeds any other denomination ; at least I have always understood so. From your knowled »ti of the country, have you any idea that the adherer/ts of the Church of England exceed one tenth of the population of Upper Canada? - I have no means of ascertaining that ; I cannot at alF take upon me to say. Do you believe it to Lc quite impossible that they can reach to a half? — I think it cannot be so large. Can you inform the Committee of the composition of wi)at is called the Clergy Corporation r — They are every one of them of the Church of England. Have you any information you can give to the Committer with respect to the value of the clergy reserves in Canada ?- What I am al)out to state will apply equally to Upper Canada and to Lower Canada ; if in any one township the lots were capable of culture, and were actually leasetl for 2 1 years upon the terms on which they have hitherto been leased, they would produce a yearly amount less than 100/. stcrlin.^. You say according to the rate at which they arc now leased, will you explain what that rate practically is at this timer — I cannot state it. Upon what basis have yor formed that calculation? — Upon a calculation that has been made by a person ihat I can fully trust in that particular. Then, aecoiding to thatcilculation the whole of one township would not let for more than 700/. a year, 0.. the clergy reserves are one seventh of the township? — I suppose that is so. Will you be good enough to exphiin what you meant when you said that in Lower Canaila the Clergy Corporation were actually in debt since the year 1819? - I know that tiie corporation were indebted to their secretary a few pounds foi keeping the books, and after defraying the exi)enst's connected witli the management of the reserves. In what way arc the expenses of the (]lorgy Corpcration incurred ? — Py collecting rents, which is an enormous expense compared witli tlie recoipfs. Is there any payment to the Clergy Corporation themselves, or to the secretary r — A small salary is given to ihe secretary, and a certain sum is allowed each member of the corporation foriiis expenses in coming from a distance to attend the annual meeting ; nothing is allowed those resident where it is held ; but there is not a single clergyman supported hy the reserves, or that ne'ts as sucli a sixpence from the reserves. Are the Committee to understnnd tliat the expenses of the collection have in Lower Canadii amounted to above 100 per cenr upon the rental of the clergy ,561). 7. 2 reserves? TM Mti. Ctatm MotgiU. 14 JuM !li9. CroMt MorgtU. 14 jHRf i8s8. 180 MINIFIES OF EVIDRNCK BEFORE SELECT COMMITfEK reserves ? I know tlmt tlic Clergy Corporation in Lower Canada were in the Jebt of their secretary a few poundi> after the balance was struck, while I was at Quebec. Do you know that not one farthing collected by the corporation has ever been available for the support of any cleruyuian r— I do. Applying these observations to Upper Canada, do you happen to know what has been the annual amount that has been derived for the purposes of the clergy from any leased lands of the clergy reserves in that province ?— I do not know the sum expended in the erection of parsonages ; but in the way of income none of ate clergy of Upper Canada have been in any degree benefited by them, nor can they be : they contend for them as a provision for future clergymen, when new missions arc opened ; as far as they are individually concerned they are wholly disinterested. Perhaps it may be as well to say that the time when the coi poralion in Lower Canada were in debt to the secretary, was before the new arrangement had hern made, by which they have rendered tiie collecting of the renls easier and cheaper than formerly ; whether they are now in debt I do not know. Lord ViscoiHit SatiJon, n Member of the Committee, Examined. 2^j DO you recollect iiaving u conversation with Archdeacon Strachan upon the Viscount Sandon. subject of the church reserves in Canada? — I remember two or three conversations, M. P. which passed principally, I believe, in the committee-room of the Emigration Committee ; I do not remember distinctly any one. The Committee observe, in a speech made by Archdeacon Strachan on the 6tb of March 1828, in the Legislative Council of Upper Canada, that Archdeacon Strachan says that he called upon your Lordship, in consequence of 'he debate which took place in the month of May last year in the House of Commons, witU a view of ascertaining from you exactly what you had asserted to have been Lord Grenville's statement upon that subject; and Archdeacon Strachan proceeds to say, that he called upoii your Loruship, and that you stated that Lord Grenville had stated that the Scotca Presbyterians were not intentionally excluded ; and provided that provision should be found more than sufficient for the established church, he saw no objection to (!;iving them aid. Is that a correct representation of what yon said to Dr Strachan ? — That certainly is not a correct representation of what passed between us. It is difficult at this time to recollect distinctly what I said to him. All I can say is, that I could nut have said what he represents nic to have said ; for it is not now, nor ever was, my understanding of what Lord Grenville .said to me. Have you at this mument u di.stinct recollection of what Lord Grenville said to yoi? — I remember tliat he stated to me that tiis scheme upon which he built the system that was intended to he incorporated iti the Canada Act of . , was a good (leal derived from information they had collected from an officer . iiad been much in Pensylvania, of the system with regard to lands appropriated to religion and education in that state ; 1 understood him to say, that the distinction of a Protestant clergy, which is frequently repeated in the Act of 1791, waa meant to provide for any clergy iiiat was not Reman Catholic, at the sanie time leaving it to the Gover- nor and the Executive Council of the province to provide in future how that should be distributed. yfustin CuvUlier, Esq. Hgam called m ; and Examined. JiuitH Cuxillitr, THE Commitree believe tliat you have been more or les.s engaged in connnercial Ktg. pursuits in Canada ? — I have. -" Are ynu at all acquainted with the trade thai lakes place between tapper and Lower Canada r — I have not been directly ou^agcd in the trade between Upper and Lower Cuiiitdu, but the trade has come under my observation very frequently. Are not all imported goods which ure con.'-iimetl <» I ppcr Canada intioduccd ihrl Ic a liillioj' one; lornitrK there were nm ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. \%\ were considerable quantities of tea introduced into that province from the states ; that is now entirely done awuy with. At present are not the duties which are payable upon commodities consumed in Upper Canada levied and collected in I^wer Canada? — Tiie duties levied in Lower Canada are upon all goods imported at the Port of Quebec destined for Upper and Lower Canada. Would it be possible to devise any means of separating the goods destined for the consumption of Upper Canada from those for the consumption of Lower Canada, and levying the duties upon them separately, so that Upper Canada might appropriate strictly to itself the amount of the duties upon the commodities con- sumed in it? — The separation of the goods in the first instance would depend upon the importers. I know but two or three merchants importing directly goods from England residing in Upper Canada; the principal part of the traders in Upper Canada draw their supplies from Lower Canada ; but I conceive that a mode might be easily established whereby Upper Canada would tax itself on the intro- duction of goods imported in that country, by the establishment of custom-houses or by a system of drawbacks. Will you describe in what mode yuu thinks the firi^t course you have suggested could be carried into effect? — Two modes might be adopted; the one by warehous- ing ill the first instance all goods destined for Upper Canada, either at Quebec or at Montreal ; and to exempt them from |jaymcnt of duty when taken out, upon certificate of their introduction into Upper Canada, there entered and the duties paid : the other, by allowing a drawback of duties on all goods introduced into Upper Canada from Lower Canada. Do you think that any adequate secui-ity could be taken to prevent such goods from being smuggled into consumption in Lower Canada, in their transit from thu bonded wai'ehouse to the confines of Upper Canada ^ — Yes. Will you have the goodness to explain in what mode you would carry into effect the second course you have suggested, namely, that of levying upon the frontiers of Upper Canada duties upon the goods that were introduced ? — To cairy into effect the second mode I have suggested, it would be necessary that an understand- ing should subsist between the Legislature of the two Provinces. Goods imported into Upper Canada from the Lower Province should be entitled to debenture upon proof of entry. By the same operation, and without any additional expense, the same, or other duties migiit be laid at the place of entry, at the discretion of the Legislature of Upper Canada. Would not the whole process connected with tiiis drawback be extremely inju- rious and troublesome to commerce ? — It would be very simple ; formerly there was an officer stationed at Coteau du Lac, paid by both provinces, whose duty it was to take a correct account of every article passing through that post fur Upper Canadp, upon which an estimate was made of the quuntuni of drawback which was to be allowed to tliat province. By adoptitig the same system now, you might correctly ascertain the amount of drawback on goods liable to duty. I see no diflicnity whatever in making the arrangement. Is the frontier between the two provinces easily guarded by custom-houses ? — Yes, the neck of land between the one river and the other is aliout 24 miles. Are there not duties collected upon rum going into Upper Canada ? — The prin- cipal part of the revenue of Lower Canada is raised upon rum and wines, and little of ihein are consumed in Upper Canada, where they now'inanufacture large 'quantities of spirits, some of which is sent to Lower Canada for sale. What are the goods passing into Upper Canada which are liable to duty ? — All goods upon wiiicii duty is paid on importation in Lower Canada ; but the largest amount is of British manufactured goods ; dry goods. Would it not be necessary Hcciirately to ascertain the quantities of those goods passing into Upper ('anada ? — Most assuredly. Would not that he inconvenient ? — No ; because from the nature of the country, it is scarcely possible to take goods U|) there without passing through the lucks at the Coteau'du Lac ; the navigation is such, that it would be attended with great expense to deviate from lliat course. It is ut the locks where the custom-house is established. In the winter season the facilijcs of introducing gooda ...to Upper Canada without stopping at llic custom-house are much greater ; but if individual* had iif) interest in the duties to be drawn Iwek, they might he verv correctly ascer AuUin CtrnlUtr, Etij. 14 June itaS. 560- /'3 mined, i82 MINUTES OF KVIOENCE BEFORK SELECT COMMITTEE JiuiiH Cuvillier, taineil, they would have no teiii|)tatioii to Hinuggle. All British manufactured goods are subject to a duty of two and a half per cent ad valorem on their importation into Lower Canada, Do you think that either of those modes which you have mentioned would be preferable to the system which hius been lately adopted by Act of Parliament, of dividing tlie duties collected between the two provinces? — I think the system of drawback would be preferable; because in the apportionment of the amount of duties to Upper Canada, I think there has been great injustice to Lower Canada ; in a great measure Lower Canada contributes to the expenses of Up|)er Canada. Will you state u[)Oii what ground you think injustice has been done to Lower Canada in the division ?• — Because the estimate is made upon the amount of revenue, and the proportion allowed to Upper Canada has been founded upon its population ; now the habits of life of the population of Lower Canada are mate- rially different from that of Upper Canada ; they consume proportionately more British manufactured goods in Upper Canada than in Lower Canada, upon which a very trifling duty is paid ; and they consume less of rum, upon which the greatest part of the revenue is raised, and in that point of view I think great injustice is done to Lower Canada. Do you think that any apportionment ever could be made which one province or the other would not find fault with ? — The present system of apportioning the duty by arbitrators named by each province is subject to less objection than any other mode. Is it not considered an infraction di the rights'of the Assembly of I^wer Canada ? — I have always considered it so ; but that point has been sacrificed to harmony. Do you think there are any data according to which it would be possible to adjust accurately the proportions that ought to be received by each province? — None but the establishment of a custom-house on the frontier of Upper Canada to ascertain the amount of dutiable articles passing into that country. How often is tlie proportion allotted to Upper Canada to be regulated ? — I think every four years by the Canada Trade Act ; when the last apportionment was made the arbitrators of tipper and Lower Canada differed very materially ; the ultimate decision was left to an umpire, a gentleman from New Brunswick, he inclined in favour of Upper Canada, as we expected. Suppose the two provinces to view diffeiently their own interests as connected with matters of taxation, and that Upper Canada should be disposed to put a tax upon the im[)ortation of some commodity, eith,^- differing in amount, or differing altogether from that which Lower Canada should be pleased to impose upon it, in what way then would the system you propose of duty and drawback work?— The drawback being allowed entirely would leave the articles perfectly free for taxation ; the whole of them might be taxed in the same way or differently, according to the disposition of the Legislature of Upper Canada: the rest is mere iidtter of detail which would be easily arranged. Then you think that goods might go into Upper Canada duly free, although thcv had been charged with dut^' in Lower Caiiada, provided only that that duty was wholly drawn back? — Certainly. Suppose that any commodity imported into Lower Canada, and subject to duty, became in Lower Canada a subject c f manufacture ; as for instance, suppose that upon the importation of horse haii', that horse hair was manufactured into brushes ; if those brushes were imported into Upper Canada, how would it be possible to draw back the duty ? — There art scarcely any manufactures in Lower Canada, and there cannot be any to any extent tor a considerable time ; it is strictly an agricultural country ; it can never become a manufacturing one even if the dominion were changed. You think that no inconvenience could arise from that score r — I vhink not. Do you not think that Lower Canada would be frequen'l>' defrauded of the amount of the drawback, by goods being sent into Upper Caiiida v/hich hail not paid duly ?— If proper precautions were taken I do not tiiiiih tiii't uny kind of fraud could \>v couniiitted, especially if it was a government atfair In .ween the two provinces, without iiufividuals being interested in it; individuals should have notliiiv further to do with it than to make a report at the custom-house. Wouiti not the difficuities tliut arise in collectins; the revenue between the two proviiicet oe iJion jHecliially remedied Uy a union of the two provinces tliHii hv any other ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »83 other mode ? — If the provinces were united there would be no necessity for a divi sion of the revenue. What ol)jection do you see to an incorporating union of the two provinces? — The union of the two provinces is insuperably objectionable on many grounds. The extent of country would be too great for advantageous local legislation. Eventually, and perhaps at no great distance of time, it would require to be subdivided; Upper Canada, from its size and geographical shape, may require it soon ; and one part of Lower Canada might also be desirous of being subdivided ; because there are two descriptions of tenures which, in some measure, create different wants. The extent of country which would be under the operation of the United Legislature is one of the greatest objections. People called from an immense distance to a central point to legislate for parts that are so far removed, must necessarily legislate under great trouble and expense, and without sufficient grounds to enable them to legislate with perfect and equal advantage to every part of the country. There are many other reasons which were stated on the part of the Lower Province, in a letter to the Under Secretary of State for tiie Colonial Department, in 1823, which I think unnecessary to repeat at present; but assuredly the feeling against the union of the two provinces is very strong in Lower Canada ; and I believe equally strong in Upper Canada. Do the opinions you have expressed lead you to tliink that it would now be desirable to effect any separation between the two portions of Lower Canada, which you describe as having little common interest with each otl>0r? — No; I'should suppose that no such step would be proper, unless it were first required by the people themselves ; generally speaking, the more united people are the better ; the stronger they are, in a political point of view. You think it would not be desirable to separate off the townships iitto another province? — In the manner the townships are dispersed on both sides of the St. Lawrence it could not be done : the principal disadvantage that would arise to the inhabitants of Lower Canada would be, that they would be confined within very narrow limits ; it would prevent them from extending tiieir population, probably from a dislike to the different goveniinents and laws which would exist in the two por- tions of the country. Would it be possible to draw such a geog."aphical line as to establish a complete separation between the townships and the seigneuries? — It is impossible. With reference to the district of Gasp6, do you think that forms conveniently a portion of the Province of Lower Canada? — I think it forms a very important portion of Lower Canada, and a very valuable portion of it. The principal fisheries, and the wealth of the river lie there ; the prosperity of Lower Canada might be considerably extended if those fisheries were properly atten.led to. Do you think that by an alteration of tlie boundary between the two provinces, an arrangement could he made of the district which would tend to the convenience of either or of both ? — I do not think that the convenience of either would be ma- terially benefited. The dismemberment of any part of Lower Canada might be considered a breach of faith on tl part of Great Britain in regard to that colony, to every part of it a system of law has been secured by the capitulations and Acts of Parliament, under which property has been long possessed and regulated. To dis- member any part of it would be separating, by violence, children of the same family. Is any alteration of the boundary wished for by the inhabitants of either province? — I um not aware that any wish has been expressed by Upper Canada, nothing of the kind is desired by Lower Canada. I have heard it mentioned by some persons, that it would br desirable that there should be a port of entry for Upper Canada in some part of Lower Canada, but I do not see any advantage Upper Canada would derive from that measure. The object, I understand, of having a port of entry, is to enable Upper Canada to tax herself; now nothing is more easy if she is inclined to do so, than the mode I have suggested. Are liiere not complaints of many persons in Canada, wilh respect to the pos- session of property by the Government which formerly belonged to the Jesuits ? — Complainls have been very loud on that subject ; they complam tliat the sources of education tliat had been left to the country before the conquest have been destroyed, and that they have no permanent means of education left them but from their own personal means. in what way do they undertake to show that the property hekl by the Jesuits, ami disdibulcd by them as they pleased, wa-^ applied to general purposes of educa- l(ui. " Z 4 tion i" Aurtiit CittiUkr, 14 JoiieiSaV. 1 p Y: I: Ui Aiulim CuiiUitr, 14 Jum 1I18. 184 MINUTKS OF EVIliKNCK UKFOllL SELECT COMMiri'EE tion ?— 'I'huse people could not liold property for their own use, or distribute it as they pleased ; it was originally grunted to them by the French King and individuals for the purposes of education, and some other duties that they were to perform, the conversion of the Indians to the Christian faith, and some other religious duties ; but the chief object of those u-itates was, that they might be employed for llio pur- poses of education in Canada. They built a very extensive college in Quebec, which is now used as barracks, the revenues of those estates arc now v«;ry consider* able, and we do not know what becomes of them. Do yon happen to know what took place witli reference to those lands upon tli« expulsion of the Jesuits? — They were taken |>usse8sion of by the local authorities in Canada, and are still held by them. When were the Jesuits expellcti r — Th(t order of Jesuits, I Itclievc, was ex- tinguished in Europe in 1774- In what way have the proceeds of the Jesuits estates been employed since ? — They were generally employed in the colony, before the concjucst, for tlie purposes of education ; the conquest however put an end to the higher brunches of education in Canada ; they notwithstanding kept a school in Quebec after the conquest ; they had ttcliools in other |>arts of the province, but they also subsequently became extinct. Do you happen to know wiiethcr the estates of the Jesuits in France Uiat were confiscated iu the same way, were applied to the purfioses of education ? — They were employed in France, I understand, for the purposes of education under other authorities and teachers, according to their primitive destination. Has the Assembly frequently called for an account of the proceeds of those estates r — The Assembly did call before n Committee of that Ixxly one of the commissioners, and he refused to give any information whatever respecting those estates, wetforesaw that it might create cons'derable difficulty to make use of the power of the House at that time to compel this gentleman to make a declaration of it ; the House in some measure did not press it, we rather hoped for better times, and waived the exercise of a particular right for the time. Did the Jesuits retain any influence over the management and the upplication of the proceeds of those estates after the conquest ? — They had a control and manage- ment of thch' estates, excepting the college, till the death of the last of the order. When did that take place i — I do not now exactly recollect the time, I think it M as in I So 1 . From that time 10 the present have the Government been wholly in possession of the proceeds of those estates? — They huvc; unci they are very valuable estates. There is one in {mrticulur, tlie Seigneur) of La Pruirie, which is completely settled, a very |)opulous {mrish in the county 1 represent, perhaps the most populous in the county, and the revenues of it must be considerable ; but we know not what (jf.'Comes of those revenues. There was another order in Canada, culled the St. Franciscans, upon tlie death of the lust of tiiut order, that property was taken possession of by the Crown, and tliey ha\ e since exchanged part of it for other property, uliich has been applied to fortifications in the Island of St. Helen's. Is there any other property that is possessed by the Crown now which formerly belonged to any religious order ? — I know of no other. What arrangement did the Assembly seek to make with respect to the land tliat formerly belonged to the Jesuits? — 'liiey desired that those estates should be employed for their original destination ; that is, for tlie education of the youth of Canudu, as might be provided by the Legislature. Seeing that the .lesuits, to whose cliarge the management of those estates was given, no longer exist, to what class of persons would the Assembly propose to give the direction and administration of those funds? — I believe that no specific proposition of that nature has been made, but it i.s a matter of detail that might be easily settled ; they no doubt intended the revenues of those estates to be applied to the education of youth generally, without distinction of religion or classes, us far as the original titles would {lermit. '5'«' ON TIIK CIVIL (JOVKllNMKNT OF (ANAl)A. i8 Mnitis, 17* tiu .luiiii, I8'i8. t.V The Rev. Anthmni Ilaniiilwi, called in; and I'Aamined. YOU nre Secretury to the Kcclesiasticiil Hoard for the purpose of providing colonial clergy? — I am. (Jf whom does that hoord consist? — Of the .Archhisiiopsof Canterbury and YorV, and the nisho|i of London. WIk 11 WHS it appointed? — Li the year 1824 or tSi,'}. ■ Uy -^honi was it appointed? — lly [.ord Miithnixt. What was the form of a|)pointnient ?-.V recommendation from Lord hatburst to the Lor*!" of the Treasury, and a confirmulion of it hy a minute of the Treasury. Did the hoMid receive any instructions or directions from Lord Uatliurst at the lime of its «p|»«)intment? — The correspoiulence hclween Lord Uuthursi and the Archbislioj) of Caiilerhury, and b«;tween the Right Hon. Wilmot Horton and Georsu Mnrrison, eM]. will exhibit the grounds of the appointment, a copy of which is sub- Miitted to cnc (Jonuni ' >\ Will you describe wtiut duties the board jjerlorm? — The investigation of the character and (nullifications of candidates who apply for clerical appointments in the colonies. Do the candidutes npply to the bishops, or to the Colonial Oftice ? — The jiractice varies ; applications are sometimes directed to the Secretary of State, and sometimes to the Ecclesiastical Board. Li that case do you refer to the application to the (Colonial Office ? — No, when a vacancy is intimated to nie from the Colonial Office, it is my duty to recommend, through the Ecclesiastical Hoard, a proper person to till that vacancy. Of the number of candidates u ho apply in the course of a year, do the greater number npply personally to yourself, or to the f 'olonial Office? — I should think the greater number to myself direct, not generally in person, but by letter; no person is ever recommended without personal intercourse. Is there nn account kept of the ap|)licntions which would show the proportions of the nund)ers accurately i* — Yes. Does any appointment take place without a reference to you, either from the individuals, or from the Colonial Office ? — I believe not. Has there been any instance of a recommendation of yours not having been acted upon by the Colonial Office? — I believe not. You receive a salary as secretary to the board? — I do, of ,500/. a year. Is there a clerk ? — There is a clerk in the office. Ls that salary paid out of the colonial revenue ? — No, it is paid by the Treasury rcconnnendation. Does the examination ' clergymen apply to all the colonies? — To ull the colonies. Having ascertained the fitness of the candidate, what steps do you take' — I draw out a form of recommendation, w hich is signed by the members of the Lcclcsiastical Hoard, and then transmit it to the Secretury of State. And in consequence of that reconiniendation the appointment invariably takes place ? — Invariably. In the recommendation of clergymen to fill the vacancies that occur in Canada, what steps arc taken by the board ? — The clergy in Canada are under the control and a|)pointment of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts, of w hich I am also secretary. Has the fmard you have described, con.sisting of the two Archbishops, and the Bishop of London, any thing to do with the appointments in Canada? — They have not yet had any thing to do w ith the colony, but there are several appointments in the Canada's which are in the patronage of the Secretary of S*. ate, the great majority arc in the patronage of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel ; none of those in the jwtronage of the Secretary of State have become vacant since the establish- ment of the board. Have the goodness to describe those appointments in Canada which are under the influence of the Ecclesiastical Board? — I should conceive that they arc limited to the Hector of Quebec, the Rector of Montreal, and the Rjctor of Three Rivers. S^[h A a How «*«*«►. ••VT' Anihomj HamUloH. 17 June i8a8. ■^T. ^^^O. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^ >\ 1.0 1.1 billl 12.5 140 I. u 1 ^|U|^ j ^ 6" » V] % % ayments from fees? — They have surplice fees, but they are very moderate, the:r extent is not known ; they may be consi- derable in the large towns, such as Kingston and York. Do the subscriptions of the society increase or decrease? — Increase. Have you difficulty in procuring English clergymen to serve in Canada at the salary you give ? — I should say not ; we have a great many applications at this moment before us ; the only difficulty we have is in finding means to support the clerfry. Of the money that you apply for the support of clergyman in (.'anada, do you think that the greater proportion comes from the Ciovernment grants, or from |)rivutc subscription? — I should think a large proportion is from Government grants, because 15,500/., the grant from Government, exceeds the sum total of the other resources of the society, amounting to 11,000/. or 12,000/. Docs the Bishop of Quebec in his communications with the society, or with the Ecclesiastical Board, state that if there was a greater opportunity of endow- ing churches, and pecimiary means of supplying clergymen, there does exist a demand in that country for clergymen of the Church of England? — No doubt, helms icpeated it oltrn, and Sir Peregrine Maithind has said the same thing in his communications with Government. Docs the bislu)p say so with regard to both Canadds? - He says it with refe- rence to both. Are IcJ dit' to «•'{' mi •*'.' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 189 .' Are the churches in Canada at present abundantly HUpplied with clergymen i— Tht Rn. No, we have repeated applications for more clorgyiiioii, but we h«vo not means Aiuhotiji UmtUtim. to support them. ^ ' ^ -' Are any of the churches without niinisters ?— A great many clergymen serve oJw" »8a«- two or three churches. Would it be possible to have an account of thoiie ? — Vei. May I be allowed to observe that in the first instance I deprecateti thii examination, because I am .assured that it is defective ; measures have been preparing to giva information of a very superior kind to the Committee, and that information ii (^hIIv expected from the Risho|) of Quebec. With the permisilon of (lie Committee I will make an observation upon the subject of the clergy reierveii with rcipect both to the ' question of right and the question of expediency. .. Do you know what is held by the clergy in thit country upon the subject of the clergy reserves ? — It has formed tlie tsubject of conv(tr»ation very frequently, and they consider that the rigiit of the clergy of the Church of England In the Cauadas is exclusive. Do you apply yuur arguments principally to iho expediency of having religious iitstructiuns provided for in one way or another, rather ihini to the expediency of providing for them in the particular method pointed out in the Act of Parlia* nient? —Yes. Do you think the having an exclusive church would tend to promote peace end harmony among the population at large ?— I should think m. Even among the French Canadians?— No, the clrcuinituncei of he case are totally different. Are you aware that petitions, very numerouily lignod, have been presented from botit Canadas against an exclusive iihurch, and tliat the House of Assembly of Upper Canada have by a very large majority paiied resolutions to the same effect? — I do not think that is cunci'u»ivi< against the feeling of the people iu favour of the chiv.ch. i-'. ... t* . >::!" ' Mr. Jama Charles Qrant, called in ; and Examined. ARE you a native of Canada?— I am. Have you come over to England fur the piirpdie of repreTli(rtion of the petitioners reside in Upper Canada ; there are many who reside in thit province, Hive you any general notion of what the numbeis of the Protestant populaiion of Lower Canada arc P — I suppose the number in Lower Canada may amount to between 60,000 and 80,000. Hive you any notion what number of that population are members of the Church of England? — The only means I have of judging of the comparative number*, is derived from the returns that have been made to some questions tiiat were itent to different parts of the Protestant settlements, to respectable persons that were supposed to be competent to give information upon the subject. Much excitement and discussion arose in Canada last autumn, in consequence of the publicition of an ecclesiastical chart and letter, purporting to give a statistical MGOunt of religiijus denominations in that province, which had been prepared by Dr. Stfttchan fu^' the information of His Majesty's Government ; a general feeling exiited, that the distorted views and erroneous statements given in that chart, were Cllculi*ed to mike inaccurate impressions, and lead to the most erroneous infer- ences and conclusions on the subject. The mc'e above mentioned was adopted with the view of obtaining the most accurate information ; I am in possession of the aniwert to those questions from some of the settlements both in Upper and Lower Canada, from which, I find tliat the number of Episcopalians vary in the different settlements, but they form but a small proportion of the Protestant inhabitants. Have you any more accurate n)cans of knowing what part of the Protestant population of Lower Canada the Presbyterians constitute? — No other mode of ucertalning it than that I have mentioned. Hive not the Scotch church in Scotland sent queries to tiie colonies, and got retuniH in answer to them ? — Yes, returns have been obtained from some of the gettlenicnts only. It is necessary to observe that the Protestant part of tlie popu< lltion in the townships is so dispersed over a vast extent of country, and the means of communication between the settlements so difficult, and in some cases Interrupted and inaccessible, and the difficulty of finle of ascertaining the number of persons attached to the different forms of worship, that the information that has been derived is not so ample as might be expected. Can you utatc the proportion of the Presbyterians to the members of the Church of England in Lower Canada ? — I cannot say exactly, but I believe the Presby- tfriann are more than treble the number of the Episco|)alians. What ih the proportion in Upper Canada? — It is very difficult to onswer that qucNtion, but I imagine that there also those denominations will bear the same relative proportion. Do you feel quite confident that neither in Upper nor in Lower Canada the members of the Church of England are equal in number to tiie Presbyterians r — That is my impression. Atif you aware tliatut present the clergy reserves have been very unproductive? —They have not been very productive hitherto. Do you know what sum they have produced annually? — I believe not exceeding 500 /, or 600 /. or between that and 1 ,000 /. Hy whom are they managed at present P — By a corporation, consisting of the bishop and the beneficed clergymen of Lower Canada. corfiomtion comfwsed exclusively of members of the Church of England r -It is. Doci (^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »9« Does the Presbyterian population of tliat province view with alarm the circum- Mr- stance of the management of those clergy reserves being given to a body compoMd "'• ''' ®'*"** exclusively of members of the Church of England, and augur from that that there" ^ is an intention of finally giving the property of those reserves to the Church of *' '*'"" "•*' England ? — UndoubteHi v j those lands wer , set apart for the support of a Proteatanl clergy ; the Presbyterians belonging to one of the established churches of Great Britain always conceived that when those lands became productive they would participate in the revenue arising from such reserves ; and the appearance of an advertisement, announcing die formation of thib corporation, first excited their alarm, and induced theru to look more narrowly into the situation of their religioiM establishments. In what year was that?— In the year 1820. Not only among Presbyterians tliemselves, but I may say it was the generally received opinion in the country that they had a legal claim to a portion of those revenues. Do the Presbyterians of Lower Canada conceive that the Church of England and themselves have the exclusive right to the property of those reserves, or would they admit other descriptions of Protestants to share in them ? — They conceive that according to the language of the Act itself, those lands being set apart for the support of a Protestant clergy, none but the Church of England and the Church of Scotland could have been contemplated by the Act, as no other denomination of christians are recognised by law ; at the same time I cannot say that there would be any objection on the part of the Presbyterians to a provision being made out of those funds for other Protestant ministers. What might be the proportion of the other descriptions of Protestants, compared with the members of the Scotch Church and the Church of England r — I cannot say with respect to the eastern townships ; but I suppose that in the city of Montreal they amount to about half the number of Presbyterians ; from the other Protestant settlements in Lower Canada, from which answers have been received, there are but few. Do you know the number of Presbyterian ministers in either of the two Canadas ? — I can furnish the Committee with the names of the different clergymen; but that is not a proper criterion by which to judge of the number of Presbyterians; because in consequence of an ample provision having been made for the support of ministers of the Church of England, and the facilities enjoyed bv them as a religious establishment, the number of clergymen of the Church of England have multiplied in a greater ratio than their flocks, whereas the Presbyterians have had no means of providing for the support of their ministers; and as no Presbytery in Scotland will ordain a minister unless a sufficient and permanent stipend is provided for his support, numerous flocks attached to the latter church have continued to be, and are still, without pastors. The Committee have been informed that there are two Presbyterian ministers in Montreal and one in Quebec ; can you inform the Committee whether there are any others that are permanently established ? — There are but two congregations in Montreal that are under the ministration of three clergymen in communion with the Church of Scotland ; there is one under the ministration of a clergyman in communion with the presbytery of New York. In Quebec there is but one congregation, under the ministration of a clergyman in communion with the Church of Scotland ; there is another in communion with a presbytery in scne part of the United States. Are there any other congregations in Lower Canada? — In various settlements the Presbyterians arc numerous, and congregations wo'ild be formed if there were clergymen provided for tlieni. From what do you conclude that they would be formed ?— From the desire the inhabitants have manifested, and the applications they have made for clergymen. Are there other Presbyterian ministers of the Churcn of Scotland oflicinting though not with regularly formed congregations ? — Yes, there are two in Montreal, who go to adjoining settlements, occasionally to perform service for the settlers in the immediate vicinity of the town. Are there any others in Lower Canada? — In Lower Canada, not that I know of. What is the number of Presbyterian ministers ofliciating who have not regular congregations?— I believe theio are about five in Upper Canada who have <:oi|gre- gatinns in cominuniun witii the Cliurch of Scotland; mid I suppose there would he ^(39. A a 4 20 iHuie Jtfr. J. C. OranI, 17 JttiM l8ia. iga MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMinEE 30 more congregations formed in lliat province if there were clergymen provided for the settlements where their services are required. Can you specify tiiosc liver— There is one at King's Town, Mr. Machar; Mr. Urqubart at Cornwall, Mr. Mackenzie at William's Town, Mr. Jonnell at Martin Town, and Mr. Sheed at Ancaster. Can you state the number of congregations and also of officiating ministers in Upper Canada? — 1 cannot state from my own knowledge, but I ran relate the information received from different parts of Upper Canada m answer to the queries that were transmitted. In the western district of Upper Canada there are about 8,ooo inhabitants altogether, 3,500 of whom are Uoman Catholics and 4,500 Protestants ; one half of the Protestant population arc supposed to prefer the Pres- byterian folm of worship. The district of Niagara is supposed to contain a popu- lation of about 20,000, three-fourths of whom are supposed to be Presbyterians, and attached to tiiat form of worship; there are eight Presbyterian churches erected within that district, but no Scutch clergyman ; the number of Episcopalians is very small. The salaries that arc provided for the ministers vary from 50/. to 100/. The ministers who oflRciate in those churniias are in connexion with Ameri- can presbyteries, with the exception of one at Niagara, a Mr. Frazer, who is a Scotch seceder. In the district of Bathurst, the population amounts to about 1 2,000, they are chiefly from Scotland, and the majority of them are Presbyte« rians ; there are three congregations under the ministration of clergymen of the Scotch secession that officiate within that district. This district has been settled within the last 1 2 years, and the inhabitants in general arc too poor to contribute towards the support of clergymen. Do the causes for the separation between the seceders and other Presbyterians and the Church of Scotland which exist in Scotland exist also in America ? —Those causes do not exist in the Canadas ; the clergymen of the Sc :ch secession in Upper Canada are formed into a presbytery, and at a late meeting they resolved that the causes of difference which have divided Presbyterians in Scotland are locally inapplicable in the colonies, and expressed their willingness to join the Church of Scotland. I am in possession of the resolutions, and will hand them into the Committee if it is desired. Do you suppose that in case of the establishment of a Presbyterian clergy in Canada, those Presbyterians that have a connexion with the Presbyterians in the United States would be willing to join the Scotch Presbyterians?— Yes, from the information I have received, it appears that all, or the majority of them, would join. Will you proceed to state the information you are in possession of with respect to other districts? — The Midland district contains about 30,000, one third of whom at least are supposed to be attached to the Presbyterian faith, and would join in the communion of the Churcii of Scotland, if they were supplied with ministers from Scotland. Can you state how many there are of the Church of England in that district? — No, I cannot ; we have more particular information from .some of tiie townships ill the eastern districts. We have received returns from seven out of twelve town- sliips in the eastern district; there are three clergymen of the Church of Scotland residing within the district. The following is a census of four townships ; the township of Cliarluttenburgh contains 2,104 Presbyterian.s, 75 Episcopalians and 1,652 Roman Catholics. Lancaster contains 902 Presbyterians, no Episcopalians, 1,019 Roman Catholics. Kenyon contains 597 Presbyterians, no Episcopalians, 490 Roman Catholics. Lochiel contains 1,152 Presbyterians, one Episcopalian, and 6^2 Romrtu Catholics. Have you selected those townships out of the ten as affording the strongest instances of the extent of the Presbyterian: i — No. I have no other motive than because the information received from tho» ? townships is more minute than from other parts ; and it arises from this circumstbiice, that in these townships there are clergymen who have taken the trouble of getting informntion, and it is probable that the number of Presbyterians is greater there, or at least there are not so many dissenters, from the circumstitnce of there being established clergymen in that part of the country Have you in those four townships returns of the respective places of worship? — 1 do not at present remember ; but I believe tiiat .service is performed at I./)chiel, W iiliams Town and other places. ... '•:Are •f'-^ } ON THE CIVIL CfOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »9S Are you aware whether there is any Episcopalian church in any of those /our townships ? — I am not aware of any. Are there any dissenters in those townships ? — No; in fact those townships are principally inhabited by Scotch ; the townships of Cornwall and Roxburgh con- tain a total population of 2,gi8, and there are 1,1 a8 Presbyterians. Are any of the clergy reserves leased in those townships? — I cannot say whether there are; I presume, however, that some have been leased, inasmuch as those townships are well settled ; and consequently it is probable that those lands have been taken up. How are the funds provided by which those people build their churches and pay their ministers ? — By voluntary contribution, and in most of the new settlements the people are poor, and have 'lOt the means of providing sufficiently for a clergy- man. - Do you know what is the ordinary expense in the newly settled townships of building a wooden church capable of containing from 1 50 to 200 persons r — Between tool, to 200/. I do not mean a permanent building, but one which would answer every purpose for a few years ; a more substantial building would cost probably 500/. Do they derive any assistance in building those churches from any other quarter ? — None whatever. Do you know the proportions of persons from different parts of the united em- pire which prevail among the emigrants that come in? — Emigration proceeds principally from Scotland and Ireland. Have the General Assembly of Scotland never furnished any assistance towards the building of churches ? — They have not furnished any ; I presume they have none at their disposal. You have stated that the salaries of the ministers are inadequate i — I have stated that in some of the townships first settled, and in which the inhabitants are more wealthy than those in the more recent settlements, the salaries that are paid to the clergymen vary from 50/. to 100/. a year, which is not considered sufficient for their support ; aiid no presbytery of the Church of Scotland will ordain a mini- ster for any parish unless there is a sufficient stipend provided. What do they consider a sufficient stipend? — There is no fixed sum, but 150/. or 200/. a year would be an adequate provision. How are the clergymen at Montreal paid ?-■ By voluntary contribution. What may be the amount of their income ? — I doubt whether they receive more than 200/. each per annum, which is as much as their congregations can conveni- ently afford to pay, nofvithstanding that most of the wealth of the country is concentrated in the towns. Should you say that generally in a country circumstanced as Canada is, you conceive that the religious wants of the country are better provided for by voluntary contributions, or by funds derived from seating aside a certain portion of the soil of the country for the support of the clergy? — The people in general are too poor to provide in a sufficient manner by voluntary contribution for the support of clergy- men ; in such a country, while m its infancy, they necessarily require assistance from some other source. Do you think that under all circumstances it would be necessary to set aside a certain portion of the soil for tiie support of the religion in the Canadas ? — I can- not say that it would be necessary to set aside a portion of the soil, but I think it would be proper that some provision should be made for the support of religion, in tliat or some other manner. Do you think that there would be a sufficient provision from the reserves for the clergymen when civilization was in a more advanced state, as it is in some parts of Upper Canada? — Yes; although the lands that have been set apart for the main- tenance of the clergy have not been hitherto very productive, if still retained for that purpose, those lands must eventually become very valuable, but in the mean time some provision ought tu be afforded from other funds. Arc you aware that certain resolutions were passed in the Assembly of Upper Canada, asserting a right in the Assembly of controlling the funds arising from the clergy reserves, and also asserting that it would be expedient for the benefit of the colony to apply those funds not only to the support of religion, but also to that of education ? — I am not aware that they asserted the right of controlling the revenue arising from those lands. I have understood that resolutions such as those last .5C9. B b mentioned Mr. J. C. OraM. 17 JuM 1818. J.CQmt. 17 i .t [ITie tame wot read a* /hllou'i 1] "To the King's Most Excellent Majesty. " Most Gracious Sovereign. " WE your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjeclH, tlifl Commons of Upper Canada in Provincial Parliament assembled, most humbly beg leave to approach your Majesty, and to submit to your Majesty'i nioit gracious consideration our earn:st supplications in behalf of tiie clergy aiul members of the Established Church of Scotland, in this portion of your unmiiiioiM. When the kingdoms of England and Scotland were (happily for both) united under the British Crown, the subjects of each were placed on a fooling of reciprocity, they were to enjoy a full communication of every right, privilcgOi and advantage, and their respective churches were establiktied H« "true Protestant Churches," within their particular limits; tlie flergy of both liilght therefore reasonably expect equally to participate in the bcnejits which niiglit result from tlie union. Viewing the conquest of these provinces from tho domiition of I'Vancc, by the united exertions of Great Britain and Ireland an one gri'iit iidvniitauo resulting from the union, we humbly conceive that the Churches of Eiigliind uitu Hcotlaiid liad, after such conquest, equal rights as to the exercise and eitjuymeiit of their respective religious privileges therein, and an equal claim to enjoy any advantages or support which might be derived from the newly acquirifd territory. By an Act passed in the thirty-first year of the reign of our late revereil Sovereign, whose memory will long live in our hearts, an appropriation is authoriieed to Ihj made of one seventh of the lands of the province for the support and maintentmce of a Protestant Clergy in this Province ; and under the general words, '* A Protestant Clergy," used in that Act, your Majesty's subjects in this province, who belong and are particularly attached to the Church of Scotland, fondly hoped tlitit a nrovision bad been made for the clergy of that church, as well as for thoMJ of the Church of England, and though the allotment of lands thus authorized h>i« hithttrlo been in great measure unproductive, they felt a degree of contidencfl that it would eventually afford a fair support to the clergy of both Churches. The lawU reserved under the said Act being claimed and enjoyed exclusively for the HUpport ttnd maintenance of the Clergy of the Church of England in this urovinee, we humbly entreat your Majesty's consideration of the subject, and if Ml Um legal coMtructMm of the said Act ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. »9S Act it 18 considered that no provision for the Clergy of the Church of Scotland was contemplated thereby, we wu 'd most respectfully and earnestly expreu to your Majesty our hope that your xvlajesty will be graciously pleased to extend to them your royal protection and coiv ' jration, by directing such provision to be made for their maintenance and support as to your Majesty may appear proper. That your Majesty may long reign in (he confidence and affection of ail your subjects, to guard and secure their rights in every portion of your widely extended dominions, » the prayer of your Majesty's faithful subjects the Commons of Upper Canada. (signed) " Levitu P. S/ierwood, " Commons I louse of Assembly, Speaker." 5th Jan' 1824." Do you know by what number that petition was voted in the House of Assembly? — In the Legislative Council there were six against, and five for the adoption of those resolutions. Looking at the clergy reserves merely as a question of property, independently of appropriation, do you apprehend that they have been unproductively managed by the Clergy Corporation r~ I conceive that those lands might have produced more, if a different course had been adopted in regard to them. Are you not of opinion that their existence in their present form, without any reference to their appro|)riation, is prejudicial to the interests of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada ? — It is conceived that they are prejudicial ; but I believe that if longer leases were granted of those lands, and if the corporation or whatever person or persons who is or are to have the management of them, were compelled to perform the labour that is required to be performed by the persons holding lands con- tiguous to those of other persons (the expense of which might be defrayed out of the proceeds of the sale of a portion to raise a fund for that purpose), those reserve* would not produce the injury they do at present. Are you not of opinion, that if part of those reserves were sold, and their proceeds applied for the making of roads, and for the prevention of those inconveniences which result from their being left waste, that the remainder would be infinitely more /aluable than the whole are under their present circumstances ? — I cannot say whether that would be the case or not, because they are so dispersed and scattered ; if those lands were set apart in a block or any particular section of the country, and a portion of that section was sold, and the money applied to the improvement of the remainder, it would enhance their value ; but the reserves are scattered through the different settlements. Are you not of opinion that the sale of those scattered lots which are mixed up with that part of the country which is now settled, would be desirable, leaving the proceeds to be disposed of in such manner as might be determined upon? — I think so, though I do not conceive the present to be a favourable time to dispose of them. If it be deemed expedient to have a provision in land for the support of any clergy, do you think that provision might more advantageously be given in large blocks, than it would be by scattering them in that manner throughout the country ? — The setting apart of such lands would not be so injurious to the settlement of the country generally, as the manner in which they are scattered over the country at present ; but I cannot say that such provision would be more advantageous for those for whose benefit it is proposed to be made, than that which already exists. Are you aware that a bill was brought into the House of Commons in the year 1826, authorizing the sale of 120,000 acres per annum, of those reserves, and that the sale was left to the discretion of the Governor in Council ? — Yes. Do you consider that advantage will accrue to the Canadas from that system being acted upon ? — I think that it would be advantageous to the colonies. Is it your opinion that the establishment of a prevailinj^ and exclusive church, of the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England, in both provinces of Canada, would contribute to the prosperity and happiness of those colonies? — I do not; the people in general are attached to the Presbyterian and other forms. When you say that the people in general are attached to the Presbyterian fbrm, is it your opinion that it would be desirable to give that church any exclu- sive privilege? — My opinion is, that no cliuich in the country ought to be domi- nant, or possess political or other powers which might be prejudicial to other religious denominations ; but I think that the national churches ought to receive sfg. B b 2 some 17 JuM ital. Mr. J. C. Grant, ^ ^ 17 Junt 1I1S. 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE some provision for the support of their clergy ; particularly while those colonies are in their infancy. "^ Does any proportion of the Presbyterian population attend the ministers of the Church of England i — In the cities ol Quebec and Montreal Home persons brought up to the Scotch church joined that of England, at times when those cities were not provided with pastors, and having married and had tlieir children christened in that churcii some may have since adhered to it, while other persons may have conformed to that church from interest. In Lower Canada, (particularly among the Protestant part of the population), as well as in the Upper Provmce, the Church of England has been made the avenue to office ; and it is also probable that some may attend service in the Church of England in those parts of tlie country where there are no ministurs except of the Churcii of England. Of the other sects which should you say, from your knowledge of the country* is the most predominant ?— The Methodists and Haptists in Upper Canada. Do you mean the Wcsleyan Methodists? — ^I'he Methodists generally ; I cannot say that the Wesleyans are more numerous then the other. The Committee understand that vou are a lawyer ? — 1 am. Do you reside at Montreal: — I do. Has your business lain mnrh among the English townships ? — A fpoA deal. Have you long nad opp«' tunities of observing the working of the present sys- tem of la^.a in the province of Lower Canada ? — The last 14 or 15 years I have. Should you say that, generally, the great mass of the population was satisfied with that system of laws ? — They are with the system generally. Does that observation apply to the population of the townships, as well as to what has been called the French population of I^wer Canada ? —The complaints that I have heard from the inhabitants of the townships did not refer to the general system of laws ; those persons complain more of the present system by which those laws are administered, tlic remoteness of their situation, and the great difficulty of access to the courts of justice, and other circumstances. Do you conceive that it would be necessary, in any alterations that are made by the Parliament of thb country in the state of the laws of Lower Canada, to proceed with the greatest caution ? — I do, and should be sorry to see the system of laws changed ; I do not think that a general change could be eti'ected without materially injuring the rights of subjects in that country. Do you extend tliat observation to the townships, as well as to the seig* neuries ? — I do ; the principal objections I have heard from persons in the town- ships related to the tenure, but that question has been set at rest by the Canada Tenures Act. The inadequacy of the road laws in respect to the townships, and the want of offices for the registration of all mortgages and hypollUquea on real estate, have also been the subject of frequent complaints on the part of the inha- bitants of the townships. What should you say generally was the system of laws in force in the English townships ? — ^The English laws are in effect with respect to the title of landed estates, but I believe that t^' laws of Canada generally have governed that por- tion as well as the other parts of the province. Do you consider that the Declaratory Act merely referred to the tenure of landed property r — I am not prepared to give an answer to this question at the present moment, but all doubts respecting the laws governing real property are removed by the Tenures Act Do you consider that advantage or disadvantage has resulted from that Decla- ratory Act in the townships? — I cannot say that any disadvantage has resulted from it ; I believe tliat tiie people who reside in tliat part of the country are satisfied. Do you distinguish the law of tenure from the law of descent ? — Yes ; the English laws of descent, as affecting those lands, may and ought to be altered. Therefore, though the tenure may be regulated by the free and common soccage law, the descent nny not be according to the law of primogeniture? — Under the present law those lands must descend according to the laws ot England. Would the people be satisfied with that ?— I cannot say with respect to that ; I think they would not. Is it your opinion that the English population in the townships, who you say prefer the tenure of free and common soccage to the French tenure, would prefer 9 to ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. >97 to have the descent of land according to the French, or according to the English system? — In my opinion not according to tiic £ni{li»li system ; I thinli ilicy would be adverse to the law of primogeniture, and would prefer the descent according to the laws of Canada, by which children inherit equally. Do yuu think they would prefer the En^tlish law of conveyancing to (lie laws with regard to mutations of property under the French system ? — There are few notaries resident in that part of the country. In Lower Canada lands are conveyed by an instrument executed l)efore notaries ; but I nm of opinion that the lands Ii-'d in free and common soccage might be conveyed with equal facility in the townships as they are conveyed in Upper Cannda, by a deed of bargain and sale, if provision was made for the onregistration of deeds, as in the latter province. Do not the inhabitants of the townships object to that part of the French law which atfects real property and mortgages ? — They do object to those laws which create mortgages and liens upon real pru|)erty. The Canadian system of law is an excellent one, but, like all other systems, it has its defects. Do not they also object to the law affecting personal property ? — I have not heard objections made to those laws that I remember. What is the law of descent in Upper Canada? — I believe there has been a pro> vinciul Act varying the law of England in that respect, but of this I am not certain ; I know that u bill for that purpose was introduced, and passed the Assembly twice or thrice, but I am not certain whether it became a law or not. Supposing that the Canada Tenures Act was found to produce injury to persons who had received deeds or transfers under the French forms prior to the Declare- tory Act, might not any inconvenience from such bond Jide transactions, in your opmion, be removed by a bill giving validity to deeds passed under the French forms prior to that Declaratory Act? — Undoubtedly. Would not you think it convenient that such transfers should be registered within a limited time for the purpose of giving them validity ?— Not for the purpose of giving validity to such deeds. Arc not register offices much wanted in the townships r — They are. ' • • Do you think that the scattered state of the population in the townships presents any greater obstacle to the establishment of register offices than in Upper Canada, or in any other newly settled country ? — I think not. Have you in your possession any representations which have been made by the townships complaining of grievances which they consider themselves as sustaining ? —■I have not ; I am aware that they have petitioned the Provincial Legislature frequently. In your opinion, does the difficulty of borrowing money upon landed security io the townships of Lower Canada arise from the general scarcity of money, or from a defect in the law as to giving security for money so borrowed ? — There is not much capital in Canada, but I believe that it is owing to a defect of the law that money cannot be borrowed upon landed security in any part of Lower Canada ; capital could be procured both from England and from the United States if the repayment of it could be secured upon landed estate. Would not the registration of mortgages cure that evil to a certain extent ?~ That would l)e undoubtedly the effect. Is there any difficulty in making out deeds with respect to land in the townships according to the English law ? — I am not aware of any difficulty ; but the deed would, 0? necessity, be longer than under the French form, or by bargain and sale, as in Upper Canada. You said thnt the mode of conveyancing in Upper Canada is by bargain and sale i — Yes. The Committee have been informed that the form of conveyance in Lower Canada is by lease and release ; is that the fact ?— I have executed deeds myself in that form, but it is not so convenient. Why should they have adopted that form rather than the form of bargain and sale ? — Because doubts were entertained by some as to the legality of deeds by bargain and sale executed in Lower Canada ; the transfer of property in the town- ships has frequently passed without any regular form, or by an instrument drawn by the parties themselves. Do you see any reason why it should not be by bargain and sale ? — No other than that no provision is made in Lower Canada for the enrolment of such deeds. Do you consider that the statute of Henry the Eighth, making it necessary to 569. B b 3 enrol Mr. J. C. Onmt. 17 June il«C ig% MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 17 Jane i8'i8. enrol a bargain and sale, applies to Canada ? — Doubts were entertained upon the subject in the colony till the passing of the Canada Tenures Act , anterior to that event it was my practice, whenever consulted respecting the conveyance of lands situated in the townships, to advise the execution of the transfer both according td the French and according to the English form. Do you know the nature of the law relating to a decrft volontaire ? — Yes. Do you consider it as affording a practical substitute for the system of registra* tion?— No; the provincial statute, passed to facilitate sheriff's sales, interposed greater obstacles to bringing property to sale than the pre-existing laws ; but the statute for the decrH volontaire has lately exjiired. Can you describe tlie distinction that subsists between the French tenure Qifrnttc aleu and the English free and common soccage ? — There is little dift'erence be- tween the franc aleu roturkr and the English free and common soccage ; in fact, I see none, except with respect to the law of descent. Willi regard to the franc aleu noble, the laws of inheritance are also different from the laws of England ; the eldest son would be entitled to an additional proportion above the other children. Then the law of descent is different in both cases from the English law ? — Yes. Are there any rates levied in Lower Canada, and applied to local purposes, of the same character as county rates in this country ? — No. In point of fact then, it is the proceeds of the duties of customs that are applied to local purposes in Lower Canada r — Hitherto that has been the ease. When sheriflls are appointed in Lower Canada in security taken?— I have always understood that security was taken, and I believe the quantum was settled by the judges generally. It has been stated to the Committee, that in consequence of the difficulty of knowing whether real property was charged with mortgage or not, resort has been had to sheriff's sales as the best means of establishing a good title, is that so ?— It is so. Would the system of registration render that to a great degree unnecessary ?•— Altogether unnecessary. Do you entertain an opinion highly favourable to the system of registration?— I do; it would prevent a greet many frauds, and would have the effect of intro- ducing capital into the country. Do you consider that the salaries of the judges and other public oflicerB in Lower Canada, taking into consideration the means oi living there, are too high ?— With respect to the judges, I think, by no means ; I am not aware of any office to which a salary is attached that is disproportionate ; there may be some, but I am not aware of any. The duties of the judges are very arduous, and it is not to he expected that any gentleman in the profession, who is properly qualified, would accept the office of judge if the salary was reduced below the present amount. Supposing the consequence of the Declaratory Act being enforced to be, to alter the law of descent as a necessary consequence, should you conceive that to bo a beneficial arrangement with regard to property in Lower Canada ? — I do not think so. Are you of opinion tiiat it would be practicable, according to the present geo- graphical divisions between tlic two provinces, to establish a system of customs in Upper Canada, so as to allow Upper Canada 10 raise a revenue upon goods im- ported, independently of the province of Lower Canada, in which the port is situated? — In my opinion it would be difficult to establish it in such a way as to prevent snuig^',ling to a considerable extent. Hiivc you turned your attention very much to these subjects?— I have not; but I know that tiic coniinuniciitioii by tiie St. Lawrence, and more certainly by the Ottawa, would afford facilities for smuggling. Do you imagine that to be the general opinion? — I cannot say that I have heard any opinions expressed upon the subject. Are you of opinion tliut the proposition of a legislative union would be likely to do away with many practical difficulties arising in consequence of the separate interests of the two provinces r — I cannot say; it is conceived by many, that it would have the effect of removing difficulties res[)ecting the revenue. Wiiut do you conceive to be the general fetliiig upon the subject ? — I think the j;' neral feeling would be against the measure, certainly tiie majority of the people 111 Lower Canada wt>uld be against it. What would be the feeling with respect to a sort of congress of the two [to- vineei, ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 199 of vinces, in order to direct those concerns that are common to both provinces, leaving tiie Legislatures of both provinces to act in those matters in wliich they are each distinctly interested ?— Probably there would be less objection to tliat; but I cannot say wiiat would be the feeling in Upper Canada respecting the first pro- position ; upon a former occasion, the opinion they expressed was, that they would be perfectly satisfied with whatever might be doue upon that subject by the Imperial Legislature. What is your own opinion as to the law of descent of property from father to son } do you think it the best system that the land should be divided among all the children? — Undoubtedly that is the general feeling, not only in all the firitiah colonies, but in every part of America. Do you think that it should be made compulsory, and that the father should be prevented from leaving the land as he pleases ? — No, that would be impolitic indeed. Then you would wish to provide, that if a person died intestate his lands should be divided equally among all his children ? — ^There b a contrariety of opinion upon the policy of the law in that respect ; but for myself I think it would be more equitable that it should be so, particularly if the parent possessed the power of leaving his property to whomever he thought proper ; he would take the pre- cautions which prudence would suggest if he was desirous of transmitting the whole or any part of his estate to any one or more of his own cliildren in particular, or even to a stranger : the inhabitants of those townships have all some education, and they generally dispose of their property by will. In making their will do they usually divide it equally amongst all the child- ren?— It is difficult to answer that, but, I believe that, generally speaking, Uicy do. In the United States, you arc aware that the power of devising by will is unre- stricted, but that if a proprietor dies intestate his property is divided equally among his children ; do you conceive that to be the best form of law of descent for a country situated like that ? — I do. In stating that you think that is the best system, do you apply that opinion only to countries situated as Canada is, or do you think it would apply equally to counti'ies fully peopled ? — Not equally so. Do you think it has any tendency to lead to inconvenient subdivisions of pro- perty r — I think it bus a tendency to lead to a more equal and just division of pro|)erty, and preferable on that account to a system which would vest large tracts of lands in the hands of a few. Does not inconvenience result from the small portions in which the land is subdivided in the seigneuries? — Inconveniences have resulted from it certainly. Are they frequent? — I cannot say that they are. What instances have come to your knowledge of an inconvenient subdivision, and what gives rise to such subdivisions r — 1 cannot charge my memory at present wit!) any instance ; it depends upon how the property is acquired ; if acquired by persons between whom a community of property subsisted after the death of one of tiic parents, the children are entitled to their proportion out of the estate, and call upon the surviving parent for their proportion, and in that case the lapd is divided between the children and the surviving parent ; in the division also of real property, among co-heirs, inconvenience may pussiby be sometimes experienced, but nut of a description to render any interference on the part of the Imperial Legisla- ture necessary. What is the practice that prevails in Canada with respect to the division of the land ; is it usually sold and the proceeds divided ; or is it the practice actually to divide the land ? — It is sometimes actually divided, where it can be done without inconvenience. Is that the most frequent course? — It is frequently divided. In that case, what happens as to the buildings upon the land ? — They are esti- mated by persons appointed for that purpose, and after the land is divided into certain portions, they draw lots, and the one to whose share the property with the buildings upon it fulls, upon an estimate being made of the value of the buildings, is bound to give a proportion to each of the other co-heirs. Is there nut reason, from that statement, to think that the buikiings upon a given estate which may be appropriate for one generation become inappropriate for the next generation, and that a new set of buildings must be erected upon a smallei- ,569. 11 b 4 scale. Mr. C. Oraat. 17 June i84t. aoo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ■7 Jane i acale, and of a different character? — In Lower Canada property is generally dis- posed of by parents before death by a deed of gift ; industrious persons generally acquire the means of purchasing more farms than one, and the common practice among the French Canadians is this : when a son attains the age of majority, the parents give him a farm to cultivate for himself, and the paternal farm is generally disposed' of by deed of gift to the last child. When the country becomes more fully peopled, must not the inconvenience be more felt ? — It must. Does not that law work throughout the United States, without any inconvenience resulting from subdivision ? — I believe it does. Then are not those ill consequences, when they occur in Canada, very much to be ascribed to the peculiar habits of the Canadiun people? — Ves ; and they occur more frequently among those who are only possessed r.'onv farm or estate. You have mentioned several amendments which you think it would be desirable to introduce in the laws of Canada ; do you think those amendments are likely to be carried into effect if the province is left to itself? — It is very difficult to answer that question; those amendments may be carried into oflect by the local Legislature. Do you think it would be advisable for the Imperial Parliament to interfere in those respects, under the im))ression that the province will not of itself make those arrangements? — With respect to the administration of justice, I doubt whether a change will be cftected by the Colonial Legislature, from the contrariety of opi- nions wliich prevail respecting a system to be adopted calculated to provide a re- medy to the existing evils ; but I am of opinion that it is not desirable that any change in the laws should be eft'ccted by the Impcriul Legislature. Have not there been bills brought in for the better administration of justice ?— There have been bills introduced to effect a change, a.ii! a disposition has been manifested, as well by the House of Assembly as by the Legislative Council, to amend the present system ; but I do not think that those bodies as at present con- stituted are likely to agree upon any system, although I believe that both a^e sin- cere in their endeavours to effect the change. Is the difficulty to be attributed merely to theditterences between the two parties ? — No, I do not think so. Supposing a person who has been married in this country settles and dies in Canada, leaving property acquired in Canada, would his property be distributed according to the law of Canada or according to the law of England ? — I suppose the object of the question is to know whether property so acquired would fall within the lommunaut^ de bien in Canada ; I think it would not : the commimaute de bien is regulated by the law of tiie col Ury where the marriage takes place ; but I am of opinion that in the case of a person domiciled in Canada who came to England or the United States, and married with an intention of returning lo Canada to resume his domicile, the communauti de bien would exist. That is always supposing that there is no marriage contract? — Of course, it is in the power of the parties themselves, by a contract, to make the law to regulate their marriage rights ; according to the law of Canada tlie parties may make any stipu- lation in their marriage contract which is not against good morals. Supposing a person purchases an estate in Canada, is the estate subject to dower or not J the conveyance being according to the form of the law of England ? — I think that hll property in Canada would be subject to dower. Do you ever bar dower ? — No ; but the parties before marriage may by their marriage contract exclude dower altogether. If the laws ot England establish and regvilute dower within the townships where lands arc held in free and common boccii^v.-, an Act of Parliament would be required, with simi...f enactments to the one in force in Upper Canada, to bur dower. How is it done tiiere ? — I am not conversant with the provisions of that Act. The question supposes that there is no marriage settlement, and that tiie person purchases land after the marriage, would that be subject to dower? — Land so acquired would not be subject to dower under the laws of Lower Canada ; if situated within the townsliips, and that the laws of England have been introduced there, such land, I presume, would be subject to dower, as established by the laws of England. Tlie Committee are informed tiiat settlers from England who are desirous of ^ettling in America aie unwilling to acquire property in Lower Canada, from the aversion ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 30 1 aversion they have to the tenure of land in that province ; do you Icnow whether that is tlie fact? — I have known some instances of persons being averse to settle in tlie country ; I cannot say that their aversion aros^ so much from the tenure, as the danger and uncertainty of tiic existence of mortgages and incumbrances upon property. If an Act ncrc passed making it necessary to register all sales and mortgages of land, would not that in a great measure remove that objection ? — As I said before, I think it wuuld, and liavc tiie effect of introducing capital into the country, which is very mucli wanted. Do you think that there is any tiling that can be done by the Imperial Parlia« nicnt that would remove any of the difficulties you have mentioned ? — If the question refers to the difficulties resulting from the want of register offices, my answer is, that witii respect to the seigneuries, it would be difficult to frame a bill for the regulation of register offices ; the subject would require much consideration, and it ought to be framed by persons well versed in the law of the country. In regard to the town- ships, a bill might be framed upon the same principle as the law in force in Upper Canada lor the cnregistration of deeds, &c. Do you think tliere is any w'uh on the part of the townships that any such inter- ference should take place ? — I think there is a wish on the part of what we term the English part of the population, tiiat register offices should be established ; whether by the Imperial Parliament or by the Provincial Parliament is a question not very important. Is tiicrc a disposition or on indisposition on the part of the inhabitants of the town- ships of Lower Canada towards the introduction of 'he English law ? — There may be persons among them anxious for the introduction of the English law, but that of inheritance, as it exists here, with the right of primogeniture, they would all be ad- verse to; i\ fact, some persons in the townships may have prejudices in favour of the law \ey have been accustomed to. Would thty desire that real property should not be subject to simple contract debts ?— I do'not think they would wish that. Supposing that the law of printogeniture attached to all the lands in free and connnon soccu^ , would not the people in the townships be perfectly satisfied, provided they had the power to leave it to whom they would by will, so that the law should not take ofTect except in case of intestacy? — I cannot say; they have already the power of disposing of their property by will. Do you think it would be desirable io establish any system of limited entail ? — It might ; I understand that is the case in the United States. What |)ower is there of entailing property in the United States? — I believe, to the second generation, Have you ever heard persons in Canada express a wish that such a power existed there? — No; they possess the power of entai'ing in Lower Canada. Is it common to do so? — It is not uncommon ; we have a species of entail by substitution. Will you describe its operation ?— The testator may leave his property by will to any pcrton, and substitute to such pc'-son his children, or any other person. Are there nniny sucii entails ? — Substitutions of property are frequenrly made by will. Has that the effect of taking a considerable proportion of the real property of the country o'lt of commerce?— It is not acted upon generally by the people in the country. You were understood to state just now that such practice is frequent? — It is frequent among those who make wills ; the French Canadian population in general do not do so. Do they generally make marriage contracts ? — Yes, there is generally a marriage contract • ' If the laws affecting the land held in free and common soccage were luted to the Englisli system, would it, in your opinion, be desirable to have administered in separate coints?— Yes. Would there be any difficulty in establishing a court, in'which all cases migh* be tried relative to the land lieUi in tlie townships, or elsewhere, under the tenure o*" free and cummon soccuge ?— There would be no difficulty in estublishing a tri- bunal wiihiu liie to^nshipj. •)''9. C c Woulel Mr. J. C. Gram. 17 June iSaS. assimi- that law 202 MINUTES or EVIDENCE DEFORE SELECT COMMITfEE Mr. J. C. Qrant. 17 June 18a 8. Would it be desirable in your opinion ? — I do not conceive, that for the purpose of administering the laws relating only to the tenure, it would be necestiary. H the laws of England generally are introduced, regulating all matters in that part of the country, it would be necessary to have a separate tribunal. Are not the laws of England enforced throughout in the townships ? — I cannot say that they are. In what respect do the French laws prevail in the townshijjs? — The French laws ^"ve generally been administered for the townships. Has any case arisen since tiie Declaratory Act, where there has been a descent in consequence of intestacy ? — No, nor am I aware of any judicial decision by which a division of property was had anterior to the passing of that law in the townships ; there was always a doubt whether the laws of England or the laws of France ought to prevail in thai part of the country. Is the Executive Council, as a court of appeals, a satisfactory judicature to the country ? — It is not. In what respect is it unsatisfactory ? — In the first place the members are not professional men, with a few exceptions. The chief justice of Quebec presides in that court upon appeals instituted from decisions in the Court of Montreol, and the chief justice of Montreal presides over those from the district of Quebec. What are the objections you have to tiiat arrangement ; is not that better than if euch chief justice should sit as a court of appeal upon the cases from his own court? — It approximates very much to that, for although they do not preside in the very court in which the causes (the decisions in which they are called upon to revise,) were instituted, they preside in one of a corresponding jurisdiction. The members of the Council generally are not professional men. A tribunal so consti- tuted is not calculated to establish a uniform settled jurisprudence. Is there a considerable arrear of business in that court? — Not in the Court of Appeals I believe. Is there in the other courts f— Yes that arises from a defect of the system of ad- ministering justice ; the manner in which the evidence is taken, which is in writing, is very tedious, except in commercial cases. Is the witness examined in court, or by commission ? — Two of the judges preside on the bench, and the witness is taken aside to a small table and examined by the advocates interested on each side Then there is no decision given when the evidence is produced r — No, unless objection is taken to the relevancy of any question that is put. If there were to be a jury int:oduccd in such cases, would not that in some de gree shorten the process ? — It would shorten it. Would it diminish the expense? — That would depend in a great measure upon the distance from which the witnesses were brought, because the expense of a jury trial is greater than that of a case conducted before the court. Arising from what circumstance ? — The summoning of jurors ; the costs incurred upon that in issuing the venires, juror's fee, and other incidental expenses. What remedy would you recommend for the purpose of diminisiiing the expense, and getting rid of the delays that you have described ? — I think that circuit courts would have the effect of remedying the defect. Would you conduct the examination of witnesses in the circuit courts in the same way that it is conducted in the courts at Montreal and Quebec ? — 1 think that commis!\ioners might be appointed to take the evidence as practised formerly in France. Why might it i.ot be done vivd voce?- That might answer, but in cases relating to real estate, I do not think it would be an advantage that tiiey should be decided by a jury, but in ordinary transactions, I think it would. Are the pleadings of counsel in writing, or tivd voce ? —The arguments are vivd voce. " There are no written arguments ? — No. was J rend- mani A for mess ncnt that cstin H Ltgi coun I ha Si ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 303 JoviH, 19' die , I unii, 1812U. * Mr. James Charles Grant ngain called in ; and Examined. ARE you at all acquainted with the Eastern Townitliipi of the Lower Province ? — I have not travelled through those towiuhipH, but 1 have u good deal of business ' with the people in that part uf the country, Arc you acquainted with the complaints which the inliubitants of the townships make against the order of things cKistlng in Canadii f — 'I'liuy have complained, I be* lieve, of the system of admmistration of Justice, tlio mndequncy of the laws respecting roads as affecting the townships, and their having no representation in the Provincial Legislature. Is there a prevailing feeling that the French Ivuntidiuni* wish rather to discourage the settling of persons of English origin in the ttnvnships ?— That such a general feeling exists may be inferred from the aildiTSfieH jtroHentcd by the inhabitants of - the townships to the Earl of Dalhousie, as well oh from their petition. Do you tiiink that there is any foundation fur mw.U tt feeling ; do you think in point of fact that the inhabitants of Lower Cuniulii of Trench extraction do wish to discourage the settlement of persons of English origin in the Lower Province, and the growth of English institutions?— I cannot suy what is the feeling of people in general; I have heard some French Citnadiun» express themselves m a way tiiat induced me to think that they hmked upon emigrants ratiicr as foreigners and intruders, but I cannot say that that is the gonond fueling. Do you see any thing in the conduct of the Assenihly, or of persons in authority there, that leads you to think that they are desirous ot removing the obstructions which at present have a tendency to prevent the settlement of English in the Lower Province ?— I confess that I have not attended to public mutters, nor watched the proceedings in the Legislature ; persons who nre not in the Legislature have little opportunity of judging of the motives which iictudte members of the Legisla- ture. The debates are never published. Do not the wishes of the English part of the poptdntion of Lower Canada form subjects of general public attention in Lower Ciiiiadii?— The English part of the population in general conceive, and very justly, that they arc not represented in the Legislature ; I mean that the eastern townships are not represented. The British part of the population in the seigneurics are so scattered and dispersed that they have it not in their power to return a single ineniher, inasniueli as they do not constitute the majority of the people in any one coiinty, unless it be Gaspe. Are you aware of the attempts that have been made in the House of Assembly to alter the state of the representation, so as to admit representatives from the townships?— I am aware that a bill was introduced for tliut purpuso, but I am ignorant of its provisions. Are you aware that it passed the House of Assembly, und that it was rejected by the Legislative Council?— I have understood so. hnt I do not know upon what principle it was intended to increase the representation. Are you aware that complaints have been made of the constitution of the Legislative Council ? — Yes, I am aware that such eninpluints have been made. what have you understood to be the nature of those complaints? — I have un- derstood that the complainants have stated, ilmt the judacs ought to be excluded, as being totally dependent upon the Crown ( hut 1 am ttwaro also that a message, was sent down to the House of Assembly, by wliiuli the Cjovcrnmcnt offered to render the judges independent of the Crown, if the A^^cmbly would make a per- manent provision for their sujjporl. Are you aware that tiie House of Assembly also offered to provide permanently for them, if they were made inilcpeiidcnt of the ('I'ownf — In consequence of the message 1 have mentioned a bill was introduced for the purpose of making perma- nent provision for fhcin, but 1 understood lluit elaniies were introduced in the bill that were thought objectionable, us tendin(| to lower the judges in the public estimation. Have you heard also as a matter of complaint against the constitution of the Legislative Council, that besides the judgcii there ate too many persons in that council dependent upon the Crown, und in the eiiipioymeiit ol Uoveruinent? — I have heard such complaints. 50;}. C e .' What .'.>■■> \. ■. .; (, 4.. Mr. C. Granl. ig Juou 1838. ao4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE »/r, J, C. Grant, >9 June il«l> Wimt proportion does the Canadian part of the population bear to the whole population of Lower Canada ?— I suppose about five-sixths. Tlion on the part of five-sixths of the population those complaints exist? — 1 do not know whether that is exactly the case ; there is but little public opinio» in Lower Canada, the majority of the population pay little attention to public niHttort. Should you think it desirable that such a change should be made in the consti- tution of the Legislative Council, as should limit the number of persons 'vliu ihould sit in tiio Council in pay and employment of Government ? — That is a Jiueitlon I am not pre(iared to answer ; there are not materials in that country fur uruting en aristocratic body, without introducing some persons holding uiiicial iltuiitions. Art' not there persons living upon their own resources, and possessing inde- pendent incomes: — There are, and some of those are members of the Council Mlreitdy, Are the members of the House of Assembly in Lower Canada paid for their uttemlnncc ?— No. Arc not they persons living upon their own means? — Ves; but the law has required no (jualification of fortune for members of the Assembly, which is con- sidered tu be a great defect. If there are materials for forming a body of 50 persons in the Mouse of Assem- bly of persons living independently upon their own means ; from what do you intei- tliut there would be an impossibility in appointing a Legislative Council, composed of tlip same description of persons ? — There would be no difficulty if the Council were to be composed of the same description of persons, but many of the members of the Assembly are not possessed of any fixed revenue ; they are persons engaged in different occupations of life. ■Supposing that the majority of the Legislative Council consisted of persons entirely independent of the Government, having an independent property in the country, and who might be disposed therefore to sympathize in u great measure with the representatives of the people in the Assembly ; what would be the effect of such a change ? — The fact is, that the Government m that country have little or no influence ; as it is they cannot return a member in the Assembly ; and if all public oflicers were to be excluded from the Council, I conceive that it would be, in fact, estublishing a species of republic. At the same time, it was a matter of lurprizc and regret, with all those who were competent to judge upon the subject, that the House of Assembly did not avail themselves of the opportunity of ren- durinu the judges independent of the Crown u^jon any terms. J lave yuu any doubt, that if there was a Legislative Council appointed of in- tlo|)en(lent landliolders rf^sident in Canada, that that Ix^gislative Council would l^micrally concur witii their brethren of the Representative Assembly ? — It is very diflictilt to auHwer that question ; but I am inclined to think that tiiey would be more likely to concur with them than otherwise. Constituted as they arc at present, do they not differ with the House of Assembly in general ? — They do differ as they are now constituted. Do you think it desirable that two such Assemblies should necessarily, by theii constitution, be brought into a state of perpetual collision ? — I do not think it is dciirablc that that should be the case ; but I do not know whether any improve- ment tu be introduced should consist in altering the Legislative Council alone. What remedies would you propose? — I would suggest, as one, the increasing the representation of tiic country. Do yon consider tiiat the House of .Assembly has, whether right or wrong, uni- formly represented the opinions and feelings of tlic great mass of the population in Lower Canada? — I cannot say whether t!»ey have represented the feelings of the population in general or not, they arc elected by the greater proportion of the inhabi'anis ; but tiie mass of the population are uneducated, and take but little inlorcKtiii public matters; they are not coni|)Ctent to judge, or to know what takes placu in liie Legislature till they arc informed by the members themselves, or by their friends in the country. If the inhabitants in general take little interest in public matters, how do you f^xplain the fact tliat upon each successive dissolution the Government has been gradually losing a portion of its influence in the House of Assembly : — The coun- try |)i'oplo in general arc uneducated, and easily led by persons in whom they have confidcufc, ON HIE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 305 confidence, and upon each succesBive dissolution they may have been excited by representations to take steps to secure their religion, and preserve themselves from taxation and other evils ; and to my personal knowledge those means have fro- ^ quently been resorted to, for the purpose of securing the election of certain can- didates, and the rejection of others. Does not that show that they really do take a very lively interest in public mat- ters?— It shows that they take an interest when any alarm is excited among them respecting their laws, institutions or religion. 1)0 you mean that the population confide the whole of their interests to the legislative Assembly, and take very little concern about them afterwards? — Tliev do. How would that inconvenience be remedied by extending the repretentativo body r— I mean that if any change is effected in the constitution, it would bo fair and right to give a representation to that part of the community that are nut repre- sented at all. Do you mean the English part of the population ? — Those within the townships, for the other . part of the English population are nominally represented, although they are not represented by members uf their choice, because they are always out- voted. Has there been any complaint made respecting the administration of justice, iti consequence of the judges being part of the Legislative Council? — Ihave not heard any compliiints about the impartiality of the administration of justice ; but it is conceived, that so long as the judges are totally dependent on the Crown, the same independence and integrity in the administration of justice is not secured which ought to exist. You say that the Canadians are uneducated ; are there any complaints of want of education? — There are. What is the nature of the complaints? — I have heaurd complaints made that the funds which were appropriated for the purpose of education have not been applied to that purpose ; that is, the revenues arising from the Jesuits estates ; and that the public schools in the country have been placed under the superintendence of a corporation for the advancement of learning, which is composed of the Protest- ant bishop and the English clergy, and members of the Episcopalian Church prin- cipally; however in the year 1827 there was a project in contemplation by tho Government, with the co-operation of the Roman Catholic bishop, to constitute a separate committee for the support of schools for the education of the Roman Ciitholic part of the community. If you were asked what class of persons you would exclude, from the Legislative Council in order to render it more independent, what class of persons would you fix upon ? — I do not think the same cause would exist for excluding the judges if they were rendered independent of the Crown that exists at present. Is there any particular class of officers that are dependent upon the Crown that you would exclude in preference to others? — I see none but the judges particularly, should they continue to hold their offices only by the same tenure that they do at present. Would you think it desirable that a large majority of the Legislative Council should be persons absolutely dependent for their pay and employment upon the Government? — Certainly not. Are you not aware that that is the case at present ? — There are some who ore dependent on the Crown, there are others who receive small salaries, whom I do not conceive to be totally dependent upon the Government ; and some of the inde- pendent landholders, who are members of the Council, seldom or never attend to perform their legislative duties. Supposing it were referred to you to decide what Legislative Council should be established in Canada for the purpose of being a check l>oth upon the Governor on the one hand, and the Representative Assembly on the other ; have you ever con- sidered what kind of a Legislative Council you would think best? — I have not considered the subject, but I think it would be fair that some of the principal land- holders ol the country sliould be introduced into that body, at the same time I do not think it would be proper that it should consist exclusively of them. ■8 Juiii 181I. .»tta. io6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE The Rev. Jehu Ltf, D. D. If June igl8. The Rev. John Lee, D. D. called in ; and Examined. YOU are one of the Ministers of Edinburgl>?—I am. Have any coinmunicutions tuiten place between yourself and the (jovernment respecting tiie stale of the Presbyterian clergy in the two Provinces of Canada r — As convener of a committee of the General Assembly, I whs instructed to apply to Government in the form of a uiemoriai, soliciting aid towards tiie support of the Presbyterian ministers in communion with the Church of Scotland resident in Upper and Lower Canada. When was that application made ? — The application was made about 1 2 months ago, about the beginning of June lust year. Have the goodness to "describe the nature of the application?— I will deliver in a copy of the memorial which was presented to the Colonial OHice. [The witness delivered in the same, which was read as foUcnn] To the Right Honourable His Majesty's Principal Colonial AtTuirs. Secretary of State for " The Memorial of a Committee of the General Assembly of the Ciiurch of Scotland, " Humbly showeth, " That your Memorialists have l>ecn appointed by the last General Assembly to inquire into the condition of the Presbyterian clergy and people in the liritish provinces in North America, and have been instructed tu support, by all proper means, the applications made to Government for their relief, and particularly to r.iibrace every favourable opportunity for promoting the object of the overtures transmitted from various Synods of this National Church, reconnncnding to the General Assembly to use their best endeavours for ot)taining suitable maintenance for regularly ordained Presbyterian ministers in the liritish American Colonies, and assistance towards the creation and endowment of places of worship for the accommodation of the numerous settlers in those colonies professing to be in communion with the Church of Scotland. " The attention of the Memorialists has of late been specially called to the condition of the adherents of the Ciiurch of Scotland resident in Upper Canada, un whose behalf claims have been put forth for a share in the proceeds of the lands reserved by the 31st of his lute Majesty, c. 31, for the support of the Protestant clergy, 'liie General Assembly, in 1823, directed this Coinniittee to support the application by all means in tiieir power ; and it is in obedience tu the connnand of the last General Assembly that (*iis Memorial is presented. " Your Memorialists cannot c v.iccive it to admit of a question that, under the designation of a Protestant cleigy , it must huve been the intention of tiie Legislature to include, not only the clergy deriving their orders from bishops of the Church of England, but all such as migiit at any time be regularly ordained by Presbyteries of this National Ciiurch. The law of the land has applied the same general designation of Protestant indiscriminately to the members of either of the two established cliurclies within the United Kingdom. In the ratification of the Treaty of Union, and in the Act of the Parliament of England, intituled, ' An Act for securing the Church of England as by law established,' the expression, Protestant Religion, is used at least as frequently in combination with Presbyterian church government as with the government of the Cliuicli of England. And your Memorialists arc not aware of any lav. which can exclude the members of the Established Church of Scotland from the same privileges which arc claimed and enjoyed by the members of the Cliurcli of England, resident in a colony which is confessedly British. " The Memorialists trust that it is unnecessary for them to advert to the great proportion of the settlers in Canada who are attached to the doctrine, government and worship of the Church of Scotland. In the extensive range of country known by thn name of (ilengarry, inhabited c'.ietly by a race of Highlanders, there are three Presbyterian ministers, eacii of whom preaches both in Gaelic and English, and one of wiiom has about ,500 communicants in his congregation. Since the termination of the war many thousands of persons have emigrated from the west of Scotland, and have foi neil congregations, particularly in the county of Carleton, including the setllemen s of Lanarke, Perth and Uichmond. TInee years ago this county (ihe populalior of which was about 6,uoo), was supplied with religious instruction ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 307 Ills instructiim by four Presbyterian iiiiriisterR, two Roman Catholic priests, one epis- copal minister, and one Methodist preacher, from the United States. The people ot that district, and of several others, have manifested a decided preference for the forms of worship practised in the Church of Scotland. " Your mcniuriulists have reason to believe that the congregations in Upper Canada in communion with the Church of Scotland have been represented to (loyernmcnt as bein(» few in number, when compared with the congreeiuions which avail themselves of the ministrations of clergymen of the Church of England. It cannot, however, be denied that there are in Upper Canada at least 30 Presbyterian congregations professing to adhere to the doctrine and worship of the Church of Scotland, and that the existing places of worship frecpiented by Presbyterians are numerously and respectably attended. Though the Presbyterian ministers in the province do not exceed 20 in number, and though only five of this number have been ordained by Presbyterians of the established Church of Scotland, it is ascer- tained that a great majority of the people are zealijsly attached by principle and education to tl)is established Church. But the settlers being in general poor, do not possess the means of aftbrding an adequate provision to ministers, and as the Presbyteries of the Church of Scotland arc not entitled to confer ordination on any to whom satisfactory security for a . nipetent living has not been given, many of the settlers, Am before their departure from Scotland were in communion with the Church, are compelled to connect themselves with some of the sectaries whose forms resemble those of tiie Church of Scotland, although their religious principles may not be strictly conformable to our standards. The Church of England has not laboured undei the same disadvantage ; funds have been granted by Government for the erection of churches, which are in many instances, it not in all, supplied by the missionaries from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. Within the last six years (us appears from the Report of that Society for the year 1821) the number of communicants at 17 stations in Upper Canada, served by 17 missionaries, whose salaries amounted to 3,345/. did not exceed 1 18. As a contrast with this admitted fact, it may be stated that in the year 1823 the Presbyterian congregation at Perth, which began to be formed only five years before, Tand which, though not served at present by a minister of the Church of Scotland, must by express stipulation be so served in time to come), contained not fewer than 270 communicants. In petitions which the General Assembly has received from several ministers and elders in Canada, it is expressly stated that there are many extensive and flourishing settlements, especially m Upper Canada, the inhabitants of which are desirous to obtain clergymen of our national Church, and that their exertions in building churches and raising funds for the support of clergymen would be greatly animated if they could be assured of being placed under the jurisdiction and protection of the mother church. These petitions repre- sent a great miijority of the Protestant population as being of Presbyterian prin- ciples, and us Imving no disposition to conform to the established Church of England ; so thut w herever they have no access to the instructions of ministers ordained in tlie Church of Scotland, they are in danger of imbibing political dis- affection, as well as extravagant and irrational views of religion from some of the unauthorized teachers who are said to intrude in eonsiderabie numbers from various parts of tiic United States. " Your nicmoriulists have only further to state, that as the want of a fixed and permanent provision for clergymen ordained to such stations has hitherto restrained the Presbyterians of this church from complying with requests whiclj have often been preferred to them, and as the settlers who have been disappointed of ministers ordained by this National Church have been tempted to throw themselves into the arms of sectaries of various denominations, (some of them of undefined creeds) it appears to be well worthy of the consideration of Government how far it might conduce to tiie advancement of religion and morality, and to the preservation of the loyalty and patriotism of the Presbyterian colonists, and their attachment to the British constitution, to extend to them the means of enjoying the benefit of religious ordinances on the same footing with their brethren in communion with the sister e.^tublishmcnt, with whom they wish to avoid all collision of interests, and to wiiom they do not yield in regard for the honour, stability and prosperity of the empire. " In name of the Committee of the General Assembly, Edinburgii June Sill, 18 i,.} rc4 " John Lee, Convener.". What TAtRev. John Lee, D, XX ly June i»aS, 208 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE DUl'ORK HKI.ECI' COMMITTEE The Itcv. What nnswtT did you receive to that Mimoiinl ? -Tlic only in»wer I received Jokn iM, O.D. from the (iovfnimcut wus this letter, wliich 1 will dflivnr In, 10 JuAt i8i8. i'^'f"^ Witness delivered in the same, which was reiul ii%Jhllims .] " Sir, " Uowiihi({SlriTl, 4ih July i8'J7. " 1 AM directed hy Viicounl Guderich to Hikiiimlcdgu lh« rotfipt of your letter of the 8tli ultimo, urgmg the cluiini of the Prenhytiirltiii iiilnliiors to iiurticipaf; in the luiidi) reserved for the support of a I'rotoitanl t'lcr^y III ( !iinu(lu, uiui 1 aui to request thut ,vou will communicate to the cuiiiiiillli'i] ol tlui Ociieriil Asiteinbly of the C'hurcli of Scotluml, that inHtruetioiii were coiivnytid hy l.ord Dathurst to the Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada in Octoher liinl, iiiitlioriziiig the tippropria- tion of 7.50/. per annum from the |)roceu(U of llitt milti of (!rown lands to the Canada Company, which Lord Goderich truiitt will evlliee the favourable disposi- tion of His NIajeAty's Government toward* tho clergy of tlia frcshyteriun Church, and whenever an available fund bIiuII bo CHtnhli»lu, which arc in eoniieelioii wllli (h*i ('hurcli of Scotland? — have had a great number of letters from ininUtiTN iiiid others who are resident there, as the Committee of the General AaMumhty wan liiHtruotod to correspond vtith those persons for the sake of ol)tainin|{ preel<*e iiifiiniiutluii ; but the informa- tion which was expected by tiie Church of Seolland U not yet nearly completed, returns not having been sent by the whole of ttui dUlrk'tf) to which the queries I were transmitted. Is it not a rule with the General Assembly of Seotland ttint no minister should be sent to any congregation of Presbyterians wilhotit then) \n n certainty of his being properly supported '. — That has been the rule and the pnit'ticc of the Church of Scotland. Under that rule, how many ministers have \\om K^ltt In tlie Cuimdas ? — So far as I know, the number in Upper Canada who tmvu Imcii nent under that rule is not more than i,\\. Have any gone there of their own accord, wUhoul milliorlty for wlioin no certain stipend has been provided r- We have aeeemi to know tliilt « considerable number have gone out otherwise, some having been sent by piirtii'ulnr societies, private associations, formed for the purpose of seiuling ininiiiterH and missionaries for the instruction of the settlers there ; and th^ie are a good nmiihcr who call themselves Presbyterian ministers, in Upper Canada in pinlliMilin', wlio profess to be in com- munion with the Church of Scotland, but with regard (0 tho form of whose appoint- ment the Assembly is not informed. Of all those descriptions, whut proportion of I'reshytcrian ministers connected with the Scotch Church do you believe to eKJut in the (.'anadus ? — The precise number I cannot state, without referring lo doeuiiientfi which t have not sufficiently arranged, not having expected to be examined by tliU (/'otiniiittce ; but in Upper Canada, as I have already stated, 1 peisonally know of six ; in Lower Canada, I think the number is nearly the same. Have you any information which has led yod to form any opinion as to the pro- bable number of Presbyterians connected with the Hfolcli ( hnrcli in the two pro- vinces of Canada ? — I could not condescend, on any tiling like an exact statement of the numbers. The returns Irom tiie dillerent clUtrlclit uild townships all state that the numbers arc very great, and that the pioporlloil of persons attached to the doctrine and worship of the Church of Scotland \* niui'h greater than of those who arc of any other communion. Do you speak of Upper or Ixjwer Canada r - I uiii uppaking of Upper Canada at present. What stipends have been awarded to the miniMterii whom you describe as having gone out to Canada ? — 1 have no direct nietliod of kliowiiig exactly what is the salary of ony one of them ; none of them have been itt'iil from the (icneral Assembly itself'; but they have been ordained by Presbytpriiii* ihroughout Scotland, with the exception of one. Do ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 2tHJ Do you know what stipend would, under the circunistancest of Canada, i». tlioui^ht Tke Rtv. suflicient for a Presbyterian minister of a congregation of a moderate size r — 1 under- /«/"< l^r t>- D. stand about aoo/. a year to be what is thought an adequate maintenance theie, and ^ - that I know is possessed b r one or two. >9 J""* »>*• Do any of them derive a |)ortion of their emoluments from .subscriptions or other funds provided in (ircat Britain? — I am not aware of any who do so, with the exception of such as are sent out by a society in Glasgow for promoting the religious interests of settlers in British North America. If any Presbyterian ministers from the north of Ireland have established them- selves in Canada, would that fact be known to your body ? — It could not be known otherwise than through the communications that the committee of the Assembly have received; we know that there have been instances of such |)erHons going there, but they arc not at all recognized by the Ciiurcli of Scotland. Has any portion of the money referred to in Ihe answer to your memorial been rcci'ived ?— Ido not know ; I have understotid that it \» only for a limited period. Have any communications taken place between your booration for the management of the clcrj^y reserves in Canada: — No, I have not been the medium of any communication, and I do not know that any has taken place. Have the body to which you belong taken any pains to ascertain what is held to be the interpretation of the statute of 1791, as affecting the Scotch Presbyterian Church in Canada ; whether in point of law you have any claim upon the property reserved for the maintenance of u Protestant Church? — Certainly, we nave an understanding on that subject ; and I was instructed to press that matter in the memorial to tlic Secretary of State for Colonial Afl'airs. What opinion docs the body to which you belong entertain on that subject ? — I conceive that the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, in so far as any opinion has ever been expressed there, conceive that the Church of Scotland is ai well entitled as the Church of England to a share of that propert) . Do you hold that the words " Protestant Clergy" exclude other denominations besides the C'liurcli of England and the Church of Scotland ?— I believe that the Church of Scotland has been disposed to consider it as applicuble to the members of established churches. And of established churches only? — If I state my own opinion I would say so ; but I cannot take upon me to say that that is the universal understanding of the church, but I think it is. When did the As,sembly tirst take into consideration this claim ? — I think alioul six years ago; I have been only for three years connected with the committee. Does the separation which has taken place between the two bodies of the Scotch Church exist in Canada, or would the two bodies unite there in one con- gregation? — We do not think that the grounds of the separation exist, at least to the same extent there that they do in Scotland ; but still, so far as we know, the members of that body, called the Secession, have not bound themselves to adhere to t!ic same standards which we acknowledge. We understand that thuy generally recognize the confession of faith as being consistent with Scripture ; but that they do not bind themselves so strongly to the support of it us tlic n. Dd ' You 74* R*v. Jtkn Lm, O. D. 19 June ilait. sio MINUTES OP EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE You mean that you connider your claim is ns good as that of the Church of Enuland ? — That i» our npiniun. I may |)«rha|M be allowed to state why I teem to limit the words " PnMcslant Clergv" lurtlier than perhaps might have been expected. It is tur this reufloii : the Acts, Itotli of the Parliament of Kiigland and of Scotland, passed ut the time of the Union, when they »|ieak of the I'rotestant religion, certainly refer either to the Church of lingland as by law established, or to tlie Church ot Scotland, the government of which was then secured and ralilied ; and I cannot venture to say thut the conitruction of this Act would entitle one to go further. Now as many of the I'rotestant dissenters do not by any means bold the doctrines, or conform to the worship, or submit to the discipline which is established in the Church of Scotland, I do not (wrceive how they could claim under thOK Acts- Mr. Jiobert (iillespie, called in ; and Examined. Mr. WHAT acquaintance hnve you with the two Provinces of Canada r — I have been ReUri Uilittpi*. ji, Canada for a great number of years, nn«l know them principally as a merchant trading to that country. Are you acquainted with both provinces r— Yes, I have been in both provinces. ' Do you know any thing of a petition to the Mouse of Connnons from merchanli and others connected with Canada ? —Yes, I do. Did you sign that (Mtition?— Idid. Will you state your views in setting your name to that petition r — The views that I had in doing so were, that the improvement of that country is very much retarded in consequence of the distentions prevailing in the Lower Province, and also as a merchant not having that Nccurity in the country which I think would be very desirable for the prosperity of it. In what way do the dis.sensions which prevail in the Lower Province obstruct the operations of commerce, and the improvcnientof the Canadas? — Hy preventing the enactment of laws necessary for the security of trade. There is no such thing as knowing, at present, when real pro|)erty is mortgaged or not, and wo arc in the general course of our trade in the habit of advancing to diiferent people mer- chandize, taking security on their property, and frequently finding in the cr/' that tliis security is good for nothing, inasmuch as it has been mortgaged before to its full value, and we lose the whole advance ; this I know from experience as a merchant. In what way have you experienced the inconvenience you mention? — Incon- sequence of taking security for goods advanced to people who were ready to offer their pro^terty as security, but when wc came to discuns the property, we found that others had previous mortgages on it. Have you any reason to think that this has frequently happened r — In our general trade it has frequently occurred to us. Is the lending of money upon mortgage materially discouraged by this difficulty ? —No doubt it is. In what way did you discover that the property had been previously mortgaged ? —When we sued the individual in court, others came forward with prior claims. What remedy do you think could be provided for this evil ?— I think if the House of Assembly in Lower Canada were to pass an Act for the establishment of register offices in Lower Canada, where all mortgages and incumbrances should be regis- tered, we should then know under what terms we either advanced goods on such property, or made purchases of landed estates. Is the difference of opinion which arises as to the expediency of this register one of the dissensions you describe?— A bill has been two or three times introduced into the House of Assembly for the establishment of registry offices, but the House of Assembly always have rejectcil it. Has no renistrr bill ever pa.ssed the House of Assembly ? — Not to my knowledge. • Is there any thing else which prevents merchants from pursuing their business in Canada, or from investing their property in it? — I think tiiose are the principal points on wliicti llie nicrcliants have difficulty in transacting business, they also prevent purchases of real estate in Canada. Do persons of English origin object to the tenure on which land is held in Canada ? — Yes. Can you state what the objections arc whicli they urge?— I have not paid much attention to the laws of Canada. Do ON THE CIVIL (JOVERNMENT OP CANADA. 311 ■ I)o yaa know any thing of the tenure of land in Canada?— Yet, I know lomc- tliins of it. Were you ever an occupier of land there? —A very small proprietor of land; 1 owhcmI a furm once on tlif Inland ol Montreal. On what tenure did you hold that lund ?— On the French tenure. Dnci the I'Vench Hystein encourage or discourage the agricultural improvement of lund ?— I think it diHCouragcs it. In what nay P-— Few settlers or emigrants from this country will roinuin in the Lower I'rovince, hcntuse they urc never certain when they make u purchuso of land wlictliir it is nut under incumhrniicc. liuveyou known any tMcs in which the land has lieenuhundoned after a purchase has been mader — I know an instance of an emigrant who came tu I^wer ^'unuda, and made a purchase of a farm, improved it, and altcrwunJ!) found that it waa mortgaged, and he was obliged to g' c it up, to lose the money that he had paid for it, and also the improvements he had made on it. Are the circumstances such that no ordinary |>rudence, in the first instance, would enable a man to protect himself against those inconveniences? — I do not know that there is any other way, except by a sheriff's sale in which you can obtain a good title in Lower Canada. Does a sheriff's sale confer a good titio against previous mortgages ? — Yes it does. Arc you at all acquainted with the cu.stcrn townships in Lower Canada? — I never v,m in the eastern townships. Is it the practice fur persons in Canada, either born there or who have settled there as merchants, to vest their fortunes in lanti in that country, or do they gencndly remit them to England ?— It has generally been the case that merchants making money in Canada have remitted it to this country. To what do you attribute that disposition? — Uecause they could not obtain what they considered good security fur investment in Canada. Does the same remark apply to Upper Canada? — I think not; register offices exist there. Do you mean thai persons intending to continue to reside in Canada would invest their capital in this country, rather than employ it in purchasing laud in Cunudu itself? — I know many imiividuuis of capital in Lower Canada who have remitted their monies to be invested here, they continuing to reside in the pro- vince, but perhaps not with u view of residing there permanently. Is not that a very easy mode of ascertaining whether a title be good or not ? — It is a tedious and ex|)en8ivc mode. Can vou state what miglit be the expense of obtaining a good title by a sheriflf's sale, with respect to a property of 200/. or 300/. a year?— I could not state exactly the expense. Is there any other expense besides the expense of advertising and the shcriflP 3 fees ?— It must go through a court of law ; it is by a decree of the court that the sale takes place. Is not that a formal decree, which is had for asking for ? — Yes, but still at- tended with expense Are you of opinion that the French law of descent, and the French law of pcrsonul projierty, operate to prevent the settlement of merchants who have made money in that country ? — I think so. What degree of change in that respect would, in your opinion, diminish that disposition to invest their capital here, as cun)pared with investing it in Canada? — If the lands were held in free and common soccugc, I think, it would be a favour- able change. Are tiiere not many lands held in free and common soccage 7 — Not in the seigneuries, ail the townships are held so. Do you find any disposition on the part of merchants to invest their money in lands in the townships?— No; they have a fear of their title not being good, and a great portion of those lands are of very little value, not being settled. In point of fact, do you apprehend that under any change of laws, it would ever he desirable for a capitalist to invest large sums of money in the purchaae of land in thcCanadas?— If waste lands in Canada remain without paying any tax, 569. D d 2 I should Mr. ll»btrHliUmfJ0. 10 Junt till. 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEl'OHE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Kaitrt Gilltipi*. I should think that a purcliase of land in the townships of Lower Canada at a low price A-u\il(l ultimately be u very advantageous thing. ^ ' Do you contemplate that advantage to arise from leaving the land waste for a 19 June iSiS. considerable time, and then from the improvement of the land in the neighbour- hood selling at a very advanced price? — I think that in time a great part of the waste lands in Lower Canada may get settled, and those remaining, unsettled will then become valuable. Then you would contemplate the purchase of land as leading necestarily to a considerable portion of it remaining waste ? — Yes. Do you consider tiiat desirable for the province r — Certainly not. Would you be disposed, if you had the opportunity of settling that land at an corly period, of doing so, or would you wait?- - 1 would rather wait, it is a very oil pensive operation, settling lands. In general is not the purchase of land made there with a view of retailing it ? — It is jzenenilly in this way : a person buys a large tract of land under the idea that he will retail part of it and retain the other part, so that it may become mure valuable in consequence of the other part being settled. Is it for the benefit of the province that that land should be held as a pormn- pent investment ? — No, I do not tiiink it is, unless the proprietor settles it. In point of fact can land in Canada be very profitable, except to the immediate cultivator? — Not inunediately profitable. Do you conceive that a purchaser is more safe in Canada, in purchasing lands that are held in free and common soccage, than in purchasing land held under the title of seigneurie ?— Yes. Would not a purcimser of land under free and common soccage be liable to the same fraud, from there being a prior incumbrancer wlio.se title was concealed /roui him ? — The lands held under free and common soccage being granted at a later period are imlikely to have the same incumbrances upon them. Supposing you were about to piircliase land held in free and common soccage, and that you wanted to a.scertain whether there was a prior existing title against it, what step would you take? — I could take no step if there was no register office established, unless I resorted to a sherifi's sale. Then you are liable to be defrauded in the purchase of lands held in free and common soccage, notwithstanding the novelty of the tenure ? — Yes ; but as stated before, the land is not so likely to be burdened. In point of fact, is land in Canatla very often mortgaged ? — Very frequently. You are aware that the French law of descent divides the property equally amonu the children ; da you consider that the Enghsh population of Lower Canada would prefer that to tlie English law of primogeniture? — No, I do not. Supposing two others were made to you of a quantity of land equally good in point of bargain, the one within the seigneurics, the other within the townships ; wliicli offer would you consider to be the best, for the investment of your capital ? — That in the townships, because I think they will be sooner settled. Why do you think it would he sooner settled - — Emigrants would sooner go there than remain in tiic seigneurics, because they would then associate with people of the suine language, feelings and customs, and ex|K'ct a purticiputioii ui the same lows to which thev luwl been accustomed. There is then something in the law which would produce that effect?— In the townships the English Ih-v .vas promised, I believe, by the treaty of 1 79 1. As in general tlie land ".ithin the seigneurics is better situated, being nearcf tu a market, would not that he an inducement to a settler to settle in the seigneiirius rather than the townships:— He goes to the townships l)ccause ho fnects with people of tlic same language, the same customs, and the same habits. Do you think that their disposition to settle in the townships is not the result of any differeiuc in the law prevailing in the two districts, but that they are tleNii'ou<« to inlmhit uiuong n |)opulation of their own country? — It arises from a desire to sellle among their own countrymen. Is it generally understood that the French low prevails over the ttjwiiships in Lower Canada? — Yes, it is, but I am not so conversant with respect to law as some other gentlemen. Are you acquainted with the commercial intercourse which ta' 'js place hetucen the two provinces? — Generally so. ("art you say whether it would he posssihle to arrange any isystem by which the duli('>. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 213 19 Jvne 1838. tliities on goods consumed in Upper Canada could be collected on the boundary? Mr. —I think it would be a very difficult thing. *o*«^' GUUtfi: Would it be possible ? — Scarcely. ■*- In what would the difficulties consist } — There is an extensive boundary open to smusgling. Would it be possible to arrange that the goods destined for the Upper province Hhoiild be warehoused either at Quebec or Montreal ; and that by some system a bond should be given for their entry at some particular point in Upper Canada, and that they might be transferred in that way with security ? — I think it would be a very difficult matter. Will you state in what the difficulties would consist? — The merchants in Upper Canada resort to the Lower Province to make their purchases ; they do not import many goods direct from this country to Upper Canada; they generally purchase in Montreal and Quebec, the variety of articles which in Upper Canada a retail sliopkeepti wants is very great, in quantities so small thai, it is almost impossible to import them from this country, and therefore they resort to ihc Lower Province, and on those goods the duty has been already paid at Quebec. Then you think that if the duties were to be taken in U|)per Canada on the goods consumed there, it would produce an extremely inconvenient separation of the trade ?— I do. Would it necessarily establish merchants trading for Upper Canada as distinct from the merchants trading for Lower Canada? — I think it might have that effect. Could the same merchants carry on both trades conveniently ? — Not conveniently, on account of the vuriety and smallness of the assortments required. Would it not be necessary to have an entire separation of the commodities imported for Upper Canada, for t'.ose imported for I^wer Canada? — Yes, it would of course be necessary to pack separately those goods that were going to the Upper Province. Would not that re(iuirc the embarkation of larger capital ? — It would be very expensive ; it would require the employment of a greater number of people and of larger capital. And that would be equally necessary whether the duties were collected at some de|)6t in Lower Canada on the goods to be transported to Upper Canada, or whether they weie collected at custom-houses upon the boundary of the two pro- vincRs? — Yes. Do you see any objection to the arrangement which has taken place of assigning n certain proportion of the duties collected upon Lower Canada to the use of the Upper Province ? — The Upper Province complains that it does not receive a suffi- <:i('ucy of the duties collected at Quebec, and the principle is bad. Is it not likely that the difi'erencc in the habits and n;anners of the two provinces would induce a separate system of taxation, by leading them to consume different commodities, and making it their interest to impose taxes on different commodities ? —Yes, I think it is very likely that it would be so. Under those circumstances, would not the division which at present takes place of the revenue collected, become inconvenient, and in some sense unjust ? — Yes, Do you know of any remedy for those inconvenienced ? — I know of none, but a re-union of the provinces. Do you tiiink that is a desirable measure ? — I think so. Will you state on what grounds you entertain that opinion? — I think that the difficulties that occur relative to the division of the revenue would be set at rest. Are there any other inconveniences that would be set at rest by the union ? — The Legislature of Lo\;«;r Canada may wis!) to impose tuxes upon produce coming from the Upper Province, and though at present they have it not in their power to do so without the concurrence of its I^egislature, I think this would be l)est attained by a union. The Lower Province in one instance, I believe, imposed a tax u|)on timber coming down. Does tliut tux exist now ? — It docs not exist at present. Was it u[M)n timber that was supposed to be brought from the United States ? — No, timber from Upper Canada. iliis any other transit duty been established? — Not to my knowledge. What other inconvenience is there in the present system ? — The inconveniences in Lower Canada are such, that the mercantile interests in the House of Assembly 5("i(). 1) (1 3 are 214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. are unrepresented. By a union of the pt ivinces a great number of English re- MmtGiUetpii. ^ presentatives would Itc obtained, and many Acts by wliicl' the country would be ipTune le^B. improved, would, I think, be passed. Do you think that the English mercantile interest is in any way discouraged in Lower Canada at present? — I think it is ; the Lower Province ut present raises comparatively little for the exports of the country. The mtrchantof Lower Canada has to luck to Upper Canada, and to the townships for articles of export, as the Lower Province produces few or none. Do not they export timber, ashes, and com from the seigueuries ? — With respect to corn, the last year they did not raise more than would be necessary for the con- sumption of the Lower Province. Is there a surplus in the townships ?— Not in the townships of Lower Canada ; in Upper Canada there will be a surplus. 'J'o what do you attribute the circumstance of there being no surplus of grain raised by the inhabitants of the seigneuries? — I think the Canadians are bad agriculturists. Are they rendered so by the tenure of their land and their system, or is it any thing in their individual qualities? — I think their system of agriculture is bad. To what do you attribute the bndncss of their system, and the superiority of tlie practice in Upper Canada ? — la Upper Canada they follow the English, or more properly the English-American, system of farming ; in Lower Canada they retain the old French custom of grazing the land one year and ploughing it the second, without the rotation of the English system. Are not the soil and climate much more favourable in Upper Canada than in Lower Canada ? — The climate is somewhat more favourable, and the new soil i» better than the old in cultivation in Lower Canada. Does the timber all come from Upper Canada? — Principally. What arc tlie principal articles of produce in Lower Canada which are exported from thence ? — Grain and ashes. Is the quantity of ashes from Lower Canada greater than that from Upper Canada? — I think not. From what parts of the Lower Province are the grain and ashes exported ? — The grain exported from Lower (.'anadu, and raised there, is principally grown in the district of Montreal, and the greater proportion of ashes are made in the townships. Do tlic descendants of French Canadians consume English goods to a consider- able amount r — They do. Is there any ditierence between the habits of the seigneuries and the habits of the townships and of Upper Canada in that respect? — In Lower. Canada they dress somewhat differently ; they use an inferior article of woollen cloth, for instance, to what they use in Upper Canada or in the townships. Is there any trade direct between Frcnce and Canada? — Very trifling. Is there much connection maintained between the descendants of the French settlers and France ?— There are occasionally Canadian gentlemen who visit France and return. Is there much emigration from France into tlic Lower Province ? — Very little. I believe that tlie priests in the semiuhry at Montretd ure generally Frenchmen. What Ijranciies of trade are you most acquainted with ? — With the trade of Canada generally. Do you know whether the imports from the United States into Canada arc in- creasing ? — There is a duty on American goods coming into Canada which checks them. Is Canada, in fact, supplied with many articles of the manufiicture of the United States, some coming in under duty, and others coming in by means of smuggling ? —A great many ashes from the United States come into Canoda. Is it not the fact, that ashes from the United States imported into Canada for the purpose of being reexported pay no duty ditlerent from what they would pay if they were the produce of Canada ? - None at present ; and it is very desirable that it should be so. It has been suggested to the Comniittee that it wou'd he [lossihle to carry on the trade between the two provinces u|K)n the footing of duty and drawback, that is to say, tb<«t all goods imported into the Lower Province should pay duty in the first itniunce, and u|)uii their being exported from thence into the Up|icr Province the duly ON THE CIVIL (JOVEHNMENT OF CANADA. 215 duty originally paid ohould be drawn back, and that a fresh duty should be paid Mr. upon their uflinigsion into Upper Canada ; do you think that such a system could Ao^< OilktpU. be acted upon with security to the revenue and with convenience to the trade ? — ^ ~^ ^ I am afraid it would be attended with great inconvenience : the boundary is extensive, >9J«ne iSig. and the great variety of goods imported into Upper Canada, on which tliere would be different duties, would make it a very intricate and troublesome operation. Supposing a higher duty were imposed upon the article in tlie Upper Province than was paid in tiio Lower Province, do vou think that increasi.J duty could be collected, taking into consideration the facilities of smuggling from the Lower Pro< vince into the Upper Province? — I think not, but it would depend upon the dif- fcrence of duty in some measure. When you advert to the subject of smuggling, do you mean smuggling by means of water communication, or by land ? — Smuggling ' rincipally in winter by land. Is it your opinion !h«t generally speaking the inhabitants of either province wish for a union ? — The Er»gHsli part of the community in Lower Canada wish for a union of tlie provinces, and I think the majority of the inhabitants of Upper Canada. Then you do nut think that a union between those two provinces would excite any great discontent? — It would depend very much upon the nature of the Act that would unite diem ; a union bill was introduced into Parliament some years ago, in which there were clauses that were very objectionable. Do not you think it would excite great discontent among all the French inha- bitants? — It would depcnii entirely upon the Act. I conceive that there are many people in Lower Canada, who, provided the Act was a just one, and they thought that their laws und their religion were not to be interfered with, wopld not have serious olijectiuiis. Vou do not conceive that there is generally an objection In principle to the union of the two provii.-es ? — Not generally. Mr. George Jiyerson, called in ; and Examined . ARE you acquainted «itli the Provinces of the Canadas? — Yes, I am. In what capacity have you become acquainted with them? — I have lived there about 2K years. Of .vliat country arc you a native ? — I am a native of Nova Scotia. Are you a landowner in either of the Canadas ?- -Yes, I am a landowner and magistrate in the district of London in Upper Canada, and have been for a number of years. Did you come here as agent for any petition ? — I was appointed agent after I came hero, I came on private business. What petition is that which you have been appointed to represent?— A petition relative to the constitution of the University of Upper Canada, and the appropria- tion of the clergj' reserves. Dy what number was that petition signed ? — By about 8,000. What were the prayer and the objects of that petition ?— The object of the petition wus to correct some erroneous statements in certain official communications from tlic llcv. Doctor Strachaii to His Majesty's Government, to vindicate the chaructLi of several religious denominations whom they assert had been misrepre- sented in those comniunicatiuiis ; to procure such an alteration in the charter of the proposed university in Upper Canada as would render the institution equally beneficial and accessible to oil denominations of Christians, and to solicit the (iovcriunent to sell the clergy reserves and to appropriate the proceeds for the support of public schools free from religious tests, and for the purposes of internal improvement in Upper Canada. What religion is proleHsed by the petitioners? — They consist of various denomina- tions of Christians. Did many Prcshylcriuns sign that |)ctition? — Yes; some of the principal signers uru Piesl)ytt'riaus ; th(! cliairnmn of the committee, Mr. Keichum, is one of the leading Presbyterians in Upper Cunadit. Tlie Coniiiiiltee liuvc hetbro them a paper, signed by Mr. Morrison as secretary to the central committee that wus proved in the Upper Province of Canada for the object yuu have mentioned, what is the nature of that paper? — It was a letter 5(11). ' D d 4 I received Mr. George ht/trson. v.. V- aiG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOaE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. I received from the secretary and chairman of the committee to authorize me to Oeorgt Ryerion. attend to tlie interests of that petition. ^ vr ' This paper refers to an ecclesiastical chart of the dilTerent denominations of 19 June i8«8. Christians in Upper Canada, derived from different clergymen and persons much interested in the result of those |)etitions as to the numerical strength and number of the different denominations of (yiiristians in that province i have you any such chart with you ? — That churt is attached to the petition that was laid before the House of Commons. Can you describe the manner in which that chart was formed, and what meanx were taken to insure its correctness ? — The secretary of the committee wrote to ministers of the «lift>,rent denominations of Christians, and to other intelligent indi- viduals, requesting u correct return of the number of their churciics and luenibers, and ministers, and of those who statedly attended their religious instruction, &c. ; much pains were taken to ascertain the correctness of tlie returns. The cliurt was published in Canada, where any errors would be discovered and exposed by tlioso interested in tlie subject. Can you certify the accuracy of tiiat document?— I know the most material part of it to be correct, and I believe that tlic whole of it is so. Can you state to the committee the substance of it? — I cannot at tills moment. The chart does not profess to give a perlect view of the numerical strength of the English Church, the Presbyterians, Quakers, and Menonists, though it does in general of their ministers and places of worship. The account of the Methodists and Baptists is mure detailed and complete ; it gives the names of the ministers, tiiu place of their birth and education, the number of ciiapcls, regular and occasional religious services, members of their church and regular hearers. 'I'he Methodists are the most numerous denomination. What denomination of Methodists, are they Wesleyan Methodists?— They are essentially Wesleyan in doctrine and discipline, but form a distinct body, denomi- nated the Canada Conference ; their ministers meet annually in a conference in Upper Canada. What denomination is next to them in number ? — I think the ditltrcnt classes of Presbyterians are the next, but they are not in organized societies, they have but few ministers. What denomination do you conceive to be next to them in number?— I think that the Church of England and the Baptists are about equal in number, and next to the Presbyterians. Does the chart you have referred to give a tolerably correct statement of the proportions of all those denominations? — It does, I believe, give a correct return of the churches, the ministers, and the religious services of the diflferentdenomina- tion.s, but not a full account of tiie number belonging to each, except the Methodists and Baptists. They kec|)ing un accurate account of all their societies, were able to furnish specific information. It is scarcely possible to give a return of thetJhurcli of England, bccansc there are but few communicants. In the other societies none are returned as belonging to them but those who are adult communicants. It is stated in Mr. Morrisons letter that the Presbyterians refused to join tlio petitioners generally ? — By that part of the Prcsi)yterians who are members of the Church of Scotland the petition was not, I believe, generally signed. What do you attribute that to ? — They wish to get half of the reserves them- selves : but the largest proportion of the Presbyterians of Upper Canada, I believe, joined in the general petition. It appears also tliat the Roman Catholics did not join ; do you conceive them to be very numerous in Upper Canada ? — In the upper part there arc a few townships of French Canadians, and a township of Highland Scotch in the lower part who are Roman Catholics ; in other parts of the province they are not ninnsrous. Are there many Irish Catholics ? — There are in some few of the new townships recently inhabited. In this letter there are many complaints of the maimer in which the statement of the number of comnmnicunts of the Church of England was drawn up ; have you any observations to make upon that subject ? — No, I am not acquainted with that ; 1 know the number to be very small. You have stated that Dr. Straclum has made some mis-statements ; what grounds have you upon whicli to ofHi opposite statements to those of Dr. Strachun ? —Dr. Strachau .says that the majority of people belong to the Church of Engliind, ami mm ,•■ f- x ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT 01' CANADA. ■'■ ay «n(l I know that to be incorrect, and that tl)e Chiircli of Engtand in amongst the Mf. least numerous of the different denominations ; the con^rc^nlions ore Renerally very George RyertM.^ snittll, except in tlie town of Yorij, where there «r«i it niltnhor of Government ' ~" ' ~' officers. Dr. Strachan in hi^ chart on>il8 Hnveral «lonoiiiiiiution» of Cliristians alio- '» •''"" •'*'■ Setlier, as the Haptisls, the Qualcers, and the MenoniitUt; und he mentions the lethodist teachers as bein^ disaffected and alienntiiiK the nilnds of the people from the Government. I know that to be wholly incorrect; for a largo proportion of the^ ministers are old loyalists, and several of tbent men that have iou|(ht in defence of the cou'.itry. A very lar^e proportion of the Methodiet societies also are th6 descendants of old American loyalists. In the luto war no men distinguisiied themselves more in the defence of the country than the Methodist societies generally. It has been stated that the tendency of a large part of the population of Upper Canada would be towards the established church, if ministers of the established church and suitable places of worship could be provided ; do you believe that to be the fact?— No ; they have greater meani of providing places of worship and of procuring ministers than any other denomination: thoy receive a grant of too/, towards building a very small church, and their ministers nrc paid by this country, and have several sources of emolument and peculiar privilogcfl refused to ministers of other denominations ; but they have not incrcuned in tlio name proportion as others have done. Do you know any district in which, theru Iminu nn established church and a minister provided, the number of other denominations of Christians yet exceed the number of the members of the Church of England in a large degree r — Yes'; in the town of York, where there are several clergyinnn officiatmg in the church ; there is no place in Upper Canada where the other denominations are more num^- rous and increase faster. I was there about a year ogo, and I visited several Sunday schools belonging to the Presbyterians, the Metliodists, and the Baptists, but there was more attached to the Church of England ; I believe it to be the casie in almost every place in Upper Canada where there is u resident minister of the Church oi' England. How many congregations of the Church of England are there in York ? — ^Therjp is one. Dr. Straciian's church. Do you know the number of which that congregation may consist ? — No, I can- not state the number exactly ; I think not more numerous than the Methodists alone. . " " How many congregations of Methodists are thcro ? -^Therc i3 only one chapel of each denomination, Church of England, Roiiiuii Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists. What schools are there connected with the Church of England cstablishnient ? — The district schools, of which Dr. Philip is the teacher; and a central school on the national system. Are there any district schools for the other denominations? — There are two large schools that consist of Methcdists, Prcsbyicrians, and others. Have llie churches for the other denominations of Christians been built entirely by voluntary subscription? — They have, and their miitlstcrs ore maintained in the same way. Has there been any select committee lately appointed by the House of Assem- bly in Upper Canada, upon subjects connected with the religious state of the province ? — Yes, and I have forwarded a copy «»f Jieir report to the Colonial Office. What opinion did that committee express upon the accuracy of Dr. Strachan's statements ?— They expressed an opinion that it is inaccurate in almost every par- ticular. Did the committee express any opinion upon the university that has lately been founded jn Upper Canada, w ilh reference to its religious charocter ? — Yes, they disapprove of the character of it, and I believe it is generally disapproved of by the largest proportion of the people in Upper Canada. Upon what grounds? — On account of its being under the exclusive control of one denomination ot Christians, and requiring religious tests, and the large appro- priation of lands which is made for its support, renders it unlikely that other in> stitutions will be founded open to other denominations of Christians. Has a stronj; fctling been excited in Canada Hy the rcpicacntations of Dotior .V'>')- E e Strachan ? I •Lit. m 9ie MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Ontfgt nif0rMH, Strachan ?— Yet, very strong, I have never known any thing produce so much ex- citement through the country, except the Alien Bill. Does it threaten to produce still greater excitement ? — Religion has never been considered a party question before, but it is now likely to assume that form ; and the ecclcsiastiral chart, and the charter of the college have tended to unite all tlie diAcrent denominations of Christians together in a party opposed to the Church of England, and to those that uphold its exclusive claims. They have not opposed the church before, but they feel themselves called upon to do it in defence of their civil rights nnd religious liberties now. Have the seceders from the Church of England increased in number in conse- quence of this ? — I think they have : those who were undetermined before have now assumed a more decided course of conduct in opposition to the Church of England and the university, and I think it will have a materia, influence upon the character of the House of Assembly that will be elected this summer. Have you a copy of the resolutions relative to the appropriation of the clergy reserves, which were passed in the House of Assembly of Upper Canada on the aad of December 1 826 ? — I have. [7%e witness delivered in the same, which were read asjollows.] " 1st, Resolved, That the despatch of the Right Honourable Earl Bathurst, His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies, communicated to this House on the 1 ath instant, by his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to the Address to His Majesty of this House at its last session, respecting the clergy reserves, is unsatisfactory to this Assembly, inasmuch as it is silent on a material part of the respectful representation of this House contained in the said address.' " on the subject but I do not think so. Mr. Morrison's letter states that Dr. Strachan has reported in his chart, that many churches were built, or likely to be built, in places where none had been built, or were likely to be built. Have you any information upon that subject ?— There is no church in Ancaster, but one, called a free church, built for the use of ail denominations of Christians ; but tiie minister of the Church of England dees not preach, nor is there any regular service by the church in it. The township of Woolwich he mentions as havine: a church and occasional service ; that is a new township on the Grand River, and there never was a clergyman in it when I left the country, except a Methodist missionary, he had only visited it then once. There is no Indian village in the district of London, with a church, as stated. Other inaccuracies I have seen mentioned in newspapers from different parts of the province, but I am not sufficiently acquainted with all the localities to point out the mistakes. It is stated in the same letter that Dr. Strachan has considerably mis-stated tlie case of the Methodist clergymen, representing them to be almost all natives of the United States, whereas the far greater proportion of them are stated to be Brilii h subjects ; have you any knowledge upon that subject ? — I know them to be all but four British subjects. There are 46 itinerant ministers who form the Ca',iada Conference, and 3 1 of the 46 are British subjects by birth and education, 12 of them are British subjects by naturalization, and three only are aliens, and those have lived several years in the country, and can now under the new Alien Act be naturalized. Are those ministers who constitute the Methodist itinerancy of Upper Canada under the orders of the conference of the United States of America, or do they assemble annually in conference in Upper Canada ? — ^They assemble annually in conference in Upper Canada ; they receive no minister fronj the United States, nor any other country, without a vote of a majority of the conference, and a regular probation of two years. What proportion do you conceive the members of the Church of England bear to the whole population in Upper Canada i — It is impossible for me to say. t)o you think they are one tenth part of the population ? — I do not think they are. Do you tiiink they are one fifteenth ? — It is probable they do amounc to that* or perhaps to one tenth ; I should think there is one fifth part of the population in Canada that do not belong to any religious denomination, although they may be more favourable to one than to another, and they generally attend one of the places of worship in preference to others. What do you conceive would be the best way of settling a provision to supply the religious wants of the country in Upper Canada? — I think that at least nine- teen twentieths of the country wish that the clergy reserves should be appropriated for the establishment of schools. Do you think that it would be desirable to allow the ministers of religion in Upper Canada to depend wholly upon voluntary contributir)n for support?— Ves, I think it would be much the best ; I think it would be conducive to the interests of religion, and it is not mere theory ; we are living by the side of the United States where the ministers are supported in that way ; I was several montlis in that country attending different places of worship, and I found them much more .')'>'J' E e 2 respectably ig JuM I San. JMr ' SMfgi Rytrun. V ^ » ivJuiw i8a8. ;»Jio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tospectably attended, and the ministers better supported, and a greater decency pre- vailing in congregations loth in the Episcopal Church and in others. The Epis- copal Church in the Uni ted States is decidedly superior to ours in Canada, and it is supported by vuluntaiy contributions of the people. In addition to this, occa- sional aid might be granted by the Legislature of the province. Do you believe that the Church of England would have a better chance of becoming popular in Canada if the causes of jealousy were removed nhich ut present exist? — Yes, decidedly so, and her greatest enemies arc those who would establish invidious distinctions between her ministers and others. The ecclesiastical chart has done her a fatal injury. If the system commenced be persisted in, it will destroy the influence of the church in Canada. Did the Legislative Council concur with the House of Assembly in those reso- lutions about the clergy reserves r — No. Has not the Legislative Council very frequently been opposed to the wishes of the House of Assembly on other subjects? — They are always expected to oppose the House of Assembly on all acts of a liberal and popular tendency, particularly if they have for their object the extension of religious Iil)erty. Does the Legislative Council consist chiefly of placemen ? — Yes. Can you give the Committee any statement relative to the persons of whom the Legislative Council is composed ? — It contains five who are members of the Executive Council ; they are, the Honourable William Campbell, chief justice, the Speaker, the Right Reverend the lii.shop of Quebec, the Honuurubic James Uabey, ins|)ector-geiieral, the Honourable Archdeacon Straciian, and the Honour- able George Markland. Seven of the other members of the Council are |>ersons holding offices of emolument under the Government ; they are, the Honourable W. D. Powell, who is now in England on a pension, the Honourable John M'Gill, the late inspector-general, &c. who is retired on a pension, the Honourable Joseph Wells, who is on half pay, and a commissioner, &c. the Honourable Duncan Camp- bell, the provincial secretary, the Honourable John H. Dunn, the receiver-general, the Honourable Thomas Riclout, the surveyor-general, and the Honourable William Allan, who holds numerous offices ; the other five arc persons not holding places of emolument under Government, and they are, the Honourable Thomas Clark, the Honourable William Dickson, the Honourable Neil M'Leun, the Honourable George Crookshank, and the Honourable Angus MTntosh; the Honourable Thomas Talbot has never taken his seat as a legislative counsellor. Can yon state any other subject on which tht; Legislative Council have differed from the House ot Assembly in Upper Canada ? — I can state with confidence that several instances of the character before mentioned occur every session of the Legislature, but as I have not been furnished witii documents on the subject I am nut prepared to enter into details; the fact is notorious, and has been the subject of much discontent fur a number of years ; we have in fact but two branches of a Parliament, the Commons and the Executive ; an enlightened and independent aristocracy is unknown in Canadian legislation, I speak of a large majority of the Legislative Council. Have the same quarrels with regard to the independence of the judges taken place in Upper Canada whicii have taken place in Lower Canada i — There is a difl^erence of opinion, but I cannot bring to my recollection tlie particulars, with sufficient clearness to state them in evidence. The House of Assembly are for the independence of the judges, but I do not know that any specific measure on the subject has been matured. Do you conceive that any alteration in the composition of the Legislative Council is generally desired by the inhabitants of Upper Canada ? — Yes ; and I believe that nearly all our grievances would be removed by tlie Legislature or Upper Canada were the Legislative Council independent : without some change in this part of oi.r constitution I believe no remedy can be effectual ; and this I have reason to think is tiie general opinion in Upper Canada. Do you imiigiuc tliut the feelings of the population of U|)per Canada are favourable to the idea of a. union of the two |)rovinces or not? — I do not think tliey are ; the fetliiis>s of commercial men are in favour of it, but not of the public generally ; it is very unpopular in most parts of Upper Canada. Has the province of Upper Canada an agent in England ? — No. Has the House of Assembly ever expressed u wish to have an agent resident in Engiuiid ? — I believe they have, but I do not recollect the parficniars. In iy ON THE CIVIL (JOVKRNMENT OF CANADA. 321 In what way would it be possible to give the Upper Province a seaport without joininK the town of Montrcul to it P— I d.j not know any other way ; our difficulties with Lower Canada relate to revenue, and would all be settled by giving Upper Canada a seaport. This is a measure niucii desired in Upper Canada, and it would enable us to conduct our commercial financial concerns without l>cing sub- ject to continual collisions willi Lower ('anada. Do you consider that there would be insuperable difficulties to questions of trade being decided between tiie two provinces without resorting to a union ? — I cannot «ay ; the union of the provinces would most probably be injurious to both. Could not it be settled by deputation from the two Houses ? — I think no satis- factory and permanent arrangement could be effected in this Moy ; \\e have tried it long without any hen'^ficiui results. • i .- . t, • ^i Aff. Citurg* Rytrim. ID Jam- till. Additional Particulars, in nnswcr to the questions of the Canada Committee relative to the Iteligious Denominations of Upper Canada: — These ore, ist, Episcopalians; 2d, Presbyterians; 3d, Methodists; 4th, Bap- tists; ,5th, Quakers; Oth, Mcnonisls; 7tii, Roman Catholics; and a few others very inconsiderable in number. The Episcopal clergy are paid by the Rritish Government and the Propagation Society, and in no instance by their congregations ; therefore the number of clergy- men affords no criterion by which to judge of the probable number of churchmen in Upper Canada. Under the term Presbyterian, I include the Independents and the Presbyterians of Upper Canada, as well as the less numerous congregations connected with the Church of Scotland. They are, in general, in favour of an impartial appropriation of the religious funds of the colony for the benefit of all denominations of Christians. 1 do not know that anjf of the Presbyterians in Upper Canada have petitioned for a division of the clergy reserves between themselves and the Episcopal Church. I believe that a more equitable appropriation for the good of all classes is approved not only by them but even by a majority of churchmen in Upper Canada. The Baptists I do not think arc so numerous as the different classes of Presby- terians, but I believe they are in general more influential. They are stated to have 45 ministers and 36 chapels ; they occasionally itinerate, but not on a regular system. The Quakers, and the Menonists, a large body of German settlers, are valuable inhabitants, and occupy several very flourishing settlements. The Methodists are represented in an annual conference consisting of 46 itinerant preachers. They have 1 1 7 itinerant and other ministers ; 66 chapels ; 623 places, including chapels, where Divine Service is regularly performed, and 130 places where it i.° occasional ; there arc 9,009 communicants belonging to their societies, and about 38,000 regular hearers, making about one-fifth of the population of Upper Canada. They have the only mission for the conversion of the Aborigines of Upper Canada, I mean the Chippewa or Missisanga Indians, 500 of whom have been brought to Christianity. The astonishing and beneficial change which tiiey have been the means of effecting in the character, habits and condition of these poor savages, has been noticed with approbation by Sir Peregrine Maitland, as well ns by the House of Assembly. The Methodists maintain 10 schools, where 2f,\ Indian children are instructed, and are rapidly acquiring the arts and habits of civilization and of Christianity. The Methodists, by means of a systematic itinerancy, afford religious instruction to every part of the country, and the religious services rendered the colony by this body of Christians alone, would, if performed by a resident parochial clergy, cost the Government at least 20,000 /. per annum. The Methodists fcrmerly received missionaries from the United States, but they have for some years been under the care of their own ministers. They have now dissolved all connection with the Methodists in the Ui>ited States, and measures are in progress which will probably lead to a more intimate connection with the Wesleyan Methodists in England. Under the existing regulations, the iMethodists, in common with other dissentci, arc excluded from any participation in the provi- sions iiuide for the support r a Protestant clergy in Canada, as well as from the honours and privileges of the University. I have stated it as my opinion that a permanent endowment for the maintenance 569. E c 3 of K 7ti MINUTES OF EVIDKNf'F, DKroHK SELECT roMlllTTEE Mr. Gtorge Hj/trton. ig JuneiS'iS. of a clergy in Upper Canada would not b« IteneflcJNl. Hut (lit preiflnt itats of.th« country re(|uires that ai» n>i will nut ountonance any dis- tinction on account of religious profusiiiun or Uo\M, for Ihu purposes of education and internal improvement in their most extenitive Mi\\m, Including the building of schoolhouses, places of worship, u»si.ttance to mititloii or native schools, to poor settlements for the maintenance of clero^vnien, &c, kGt The clergy reserves, which are now considered a ^rcat public injury, and which arc llie cause of much jealousy, contention and dissatiiifactiun, would, by such an appropriation, become the source of incalculable beuclits and advantages to every cliti« relating to the Union of the Two Canadas: — Tnis I said is generally unpopular in Up|ier ('iiiiadn, Hut the annexation of Montreal to Upper Canada, to which it imluriilly ithd ef|nitHbly belongs, would, I believe, meet with universal ap|>rubation, Tlii>i ekteltiioti of Uppir Canada to its obvious and natural boundary, the eastern hnmeli of the Ottawa, by giving us a sea port, would settle our tinuncial dilKrultleit with I^mer (Canada, and would be doing no injustice to that Province. The comniereo of Montreal is chiefly with the Upper Country, whence it derives its wealth and prosperity. This commerce is pnncipally profitable to the Montreal merchant j all oiu' wealth Hows to it, and we receive no advantages in return : wo lubuur to enrieli another Province, and have no control over the wealth wiiicli our induntry pi'odiieei. In Upptr Canada we pOiSCSJ ON THF. CIVIL (JOVKUNMKNT OF CANADA. aa^} {OUCB8 no moans for internal impruvcnient, iind itcarcely u circulating medium iiuf- cient fur the ordinary ti unsuction uf busincx.1. Tlic advantages to Upper Canada, and to Great Britain, that would result from such a measure, are, I think, many and inportant. lu Upper Canada it would give a powerful impulse to industry, com- merce and general unprovement, would increase the facilities for transporting pro« ducc, and consequently augment the consumption of Uritish manufactures. It would more entirely detach the interests of Upper Canada from the United States, and unite us more intimately with Great Drituin. I have no doubt that in a very few years steam-boats would navigate to Lake Huron. It would more than realize to us every [lossibic advantage of the union, without any of its obvious and perhaps insurmountable difficulties. I have reison to believe that the commercial and influential inhabitants of Montreal would be pleased with the measure. Geo. Ryerson. Mr. CttoTgt Kytrttm. •9 JuM lift. Sabfxiti, 2l'tlie Jimii, 1828. James Stephen, jun. Esq. culled in ; and Examined. WHAT office do you hold in the Colonial Department ? — I am Counsel to the Colonial Department. In that situation have you frequently subjects connected with the two Canadas under your attention r — Frequently ; because as all the Acts passed by the Legin- latures of the two Canadas are referred to me for my opinion in point of law, it becomes necessary for me in considering them to make inquiries into the public affairs of thost; provinces. Are you at all acquainted with the mode in which Clergymen are appointed to the diflPerent districts in Upper and Lower Canada ? — The Clergymen of the Church of England in the Canadas are not incumbents of livings. They are rather mission- aries of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel. Has the Colonial Department any control over their appointment? — When a vacancy occurs among the clergy of the Church of England in either of the Canadas it is reported by the Governor to the Secretary of State, who calls on the Ecclesias- tical Commission to nominate a proper candidate. Of course their recommendation is usually accepted. Arc there any applications mode by individuals to the Colonial Department for appointments, or do they always go in the first instance to the Ecclesiastical Com- mission ? — Applications are often made directly to the Colonial Department. In strictness nil applications should be made to the Secretary of State, because the Ecclesiastical Commission exists merely as a board of reference from the Colonial Department. Can you state how long the practice has been disused of having all applications made to the Colonial Department ? — I should say that the practice is not disused at present. The applications made to the Ecclesiastical Commission are not appli> cations to the patron, but to persons who liiive it in their power to recommend applicants to tlie patron. Was not the course taken of this kind, that the names of certain persons who were desirous of appointments in the church in Canada being known to the Colonial Office, that office was desirous of ascertaining, through the means of the Eccle- siastical Commission, whether they were fit persons or not ? — Just so; the Secretary of State conceived himself inadequate to form a right judgment of the competency of a clergyman for his spiritual duties. In the other case, would not the suggestion of individuals to be appointed origi- nate with the Colonial Department, and does it not now happen that the suggestion of individuals rests with the Ecclesiastical Commission ? — If the fact is inquired into, and not the theory, I should answer that in point of fact the Ecclesiastical Commission is substantially patron of all the church preferment of the government in the colonies. Does Mr. Hamilton hold any situation connected with the Colonial Department, or is he solely employed by the Ecclesiastical Commission ?— He is secretary to the Ecclesiastical Commission, and, as I suppose, received his appointment from jfif), E e 4 the J. Stephtn, jun. £iq. ii Jun* i8s8. i iU MINUtES OF EVIDKNCK BEFORE SKLECT COMMITTER J. Slfpttn, Juii. ^f- •I JUM iB'il. the commissioners. The C<«loniorution is created by a Cotiiinis.'«iuii under the public Seal of the province of Lower Canada, and it has always been doubted wliether the Governor had any strict le<;al right to issue such a commission. When was it is.xued ? — I believe about nine years ago. , i,. i,.,. Of whom docs it consist? — I believe it to consist of the bishop, the archdeacons of the two provinces, and the clergy of the church of England. They ate all, as I understand, members uf this corporation virtute ojjicii, but I have never seen the instrument ; uc have no copy of it in Downing-street, and I can therefore speak of it only from the representations uf others. Do you know what |)owcrs they have under that commission? — I think their powers are confined to granting leases tor the term ot 2 1 years, and to the prevention of trespasses on the clorgy-reservcs. 'I'hey are a cor|)ordtion of management merely ; they have no power to appropriate the rent which they receive. Is the rent received by them ? — The rent, I apprehend, is paid over to the receiver-general of the proviticc. To him directly ? — I believe that the clergy collect it in their different districts, from the tenants, and pay it over to tlie receiver-general. In what way is it appropriated? — Hitherto the sum has been so inconsiderable that no discussion has arisen about the ap|)ropriution of it. I understand that it goes in aid of the funds out of which the clergy are paid. To whom does the receiver-general account for aih money ? — The receiver- general accounts fur all his receipts to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. Does not he make a separate account t(. '!) the other persons, of tlic money received for the clergy-reserves? — He would also, I apprehend, if required, account to tiie corporation. Is any copy of the account rcndcreoration ? — They wished to have powers resemitling those which were granted to the Corporation in New South Wales, which powers are much more ample. What arc those powers? — In New South Wales, in every county, a block of lan^ is set apart, which is conveyed to a corporation, called the " Trustees of the School and .'r:*; : ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 195 •nd Clergy Hcscrvrs." The Corporation have the p-mself a Presbyterian who is altogether unallied with the Church of Scot- land, docs not, as I conceive, come within the meaning of the term " a Protestant clergy," as that expression must be understood when used by the United Parliament of England and Scotland. Do you then consider the Presbyterians of the Synod of Ulster as not recognised by law us a Protestant clergy in the country ? — I apprehend the Presbyterians of the Synod of Ulster are not recognised by law as members of an established church in this country. The Acts of Union prevent the legal establishment of the Church of Scotland in any part of the United Kingdom except Scotland. Did not the arrangement that was made with the Canada Company contemplate the sale of a part of the clergy-reserves ? — Yes, a sale of one half. VVere the powers of that sale obtained under a special Act of Parliament ? — Yes. Were they confined to the sale to the Canada ('ompany, or were they sufficiently extensive to enable the Government to sell the clergy-reserves to any person that would buy them? — No; Parliament authorized merely a sale to tlie Canada Company. Do you know any thing of the appropriation of the income of the estates that formerly belonged to the Jesuits ? — I understand them to be appropriated for the education of Protestants exclusively. Do you hold that according to the existing statutes, the Government have the power of appropriating them at their own discretion r — Supposing them to be the territory of the Crown, the revenue arising from them is part of the territorial revenue of the Crown, and may be appropriated at its discretion. Whether the Crown really is, in point of strict law, entitled to those estates, is a question of the most complex and intricate nature. It depends on the proceedings in the Par- liament of Paris on the dissolution of the order of Jesuits, and on the judicial sentences to which those proceedings gave occasion. Can you give the Committee any information upon that subject ? — I can give no information which it would be worth troubling them with. In what way can the Committee obtain information upon this subiect? — There is a Report of a Committee of the House of Assembly on Education, on the subject of tlic Jesuits estates, which forms a thin octavo printed volume. They were promised to Lord Amherst, but it was found impossible to carry the promise into execution, in consequence of objections made to the title of the Crown. The consequence was, that Lord Amherst's heirs resigned their pretensions to these estates, and an application was made by tlie Crown to Parliament to grant a pension ar a substitu- tion for them. A pension was accordingly granted, irom that time to the present the estates have been in the possession of the Crown, which has been r?ceiving the rents, and applying them for the education of the Protestant children of the country. Are you aware of there being any legal opinion in favour of the right assumed over them by the Crown ? — Yes, there were legal opinions by the law-officers of the province. Have there been any legal opinions by the law-officers of the Crown in England ? — Yes, by the late Sir James Marriott, and the attorney and solicitor-general De Grey, and Norton. Do you know the amount of the revenues arising from those lands ? — I do not with accuracy ; I suppose the net revenue to be small ; a few hundred pounds annually. Can you state what was the amount of the revenues of the Jesuits estates under any previous management ? — I cannot. In other colonies, where independent Legislatures exist, can you inform the Committee what has been the course with regard to the appropriation of the revenue ; does there exist in any of those colonies, Hny fund which is at the disposal of Ciovernmenti oris there in any of those colonies any permanent establish- ment, independent of the vote of the Legislature, for the governor or the judges, or any other officers of the colony? — By the general instructions which the 569. F f 2 governor /. Suphettf jun. Esq. ai JuM I8ft8. 328 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Suphen, jun. Etg. 31 June ihiS. governor takes with him to all llie colonies in which there are legislative assem- blies he is required not to consent to any act till a proper settlement has been made upon himself during his administration of the government. In point of fact, the administration of a new governor almost always begins by the enactment of a law, which places him in a state of independence of those whom he is to govern. But with this exception there is not any permanent establishment beyond the control of the Legislature. I believe I can undertake to say, that there is not any one of the Legislative colonies in which the King has any settled revenue which is not virtually subject to legislative control. The territorial revenue, and the revenue arising from fines, forfeitures, and other incidents of that nature, constitute the only exceptions. Is there any other permanent provision made, excepting that for the governor ? >— In .lamaica, am', in many other lolunies, .salaries are settled upon the judges; but still it is in the power of the Acscmbly not to vote the funds out of which those salaries are to be paid. The votes are invariably annual. Is there a deputy-governor in any other colony ? — There are many lieutenant- governors acting as governors. But there is no colony, except Lower Canada, in which there is at the same time a governor and a lieutenant-governor. Are you aware wliciher the House of Assembly in Lower Canada has ever offered to vote the salary of llie governor and deputy-governor, during their resi- dence in the province? — I think they have never made any such offer; nor am I aware that any opportunity has hitherto been afforded them of negotiating on the subject; for, under tiie highest legal authority, the Government have always maintained their right to pay the governor out of the existing revenue. Arc you certain of that, or is it only a general impression ? — I have only a general impression ; but it is an impression derived from some familiarity with the journals of the House of Assembly, a great part of wiiich I have read and con- sidered attentively. In your opinion, would any inconvenience be likely to arise from appointing judges upon the same footing upon which they are appointed in this country ? — Yes, I should regret the appointment of judges independent of the Crown, in any colony. What reasons have you for entertaining that opinion r — My reasons are these. The gentlemen of the bar who go out to the colonies as judges, are of course seldom selected from the most successful members of the legal profession. They are frequently young men, and (without meaning to say one word disrespectfully of th(!m) tiiey are seldom well known. They go to a small society, where as a matter of course, (for it may be said to be the natural state of all small societies) they find violent feuds and parties. How they will conduct themselves in such situations must always be a matter of conjecture, and doubtful experiment. If the judge were inilependent and irremovable, I fear he would too often become the ally of some one or other of the local parties. His authority and inffiiencc would be almost without limit, and he would be obnoxious at once to unbounded adulation and reproach. Holding in his hands all the power connected with the administra- tion of justice, he would be violently templed to abuse it to party purposes. The grievance of the dependence of the judges on the Crown is, I think, on the other hand, nearly imaginary. Ilemen)bering the responsibility under which the ministers of the Crown act in this country, the danger of their removing a judge witiiout the most grave and sufficient cause, is sur«ly very inconsiderable. You must remember too, that every otii • public officer in the colony, even the gover- nor himself, holds during pleasure. If you arm the judge with tiie whole powers of the law, and place him in perfect independence, witiiout any large society to check and control him, can you expect that he will not be a little intoxicated with that elevation, and that the judicial, will nut be gradually merged in the political, character r If it were thought desirable for any reasons to make, from any source, a perma- nent pruviition for tlie judges, would there not be something absurd in making a per- manent provision for a judge removable at pleasuK f — It would be a permanent provision, not for the removable judge, but for the permanent office. Since you think it desirable that the judges should be in a certain degree depen- dent upon the Crown ni the colonies, do yon not think it a natural and proper wish on the part of the Legislatures of tliose colonies to retain a certain check upon the proceetlings of the judges, by keeping in their hands the power of annually voting their ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 229 their salaries ?— I tiiink not. In a small colony, or even in a large colony, people arc t.,»ceeilinjf,ly united to each other by domesitic, social and party tics, and such unions exercise the most powerful intluence in the legislative bodies. When a judge is dependent upon them, there will always be a danger lest he should make un- worthy and unbcconiing concessions to conciliate their good-will or to avert their displeasure. lias much pructiciil inconvenience of that kind arisen in the other colonies where the judges are dependent upon the Legislatures? — In most of the colonies the judges dc|)end much more upon fees than upon the votes of the Legislatures. In the island cf St. Vincent's they have voted the judge a salary, and they have done the same tiling in Juniaicii and in some other islands ; but fees are the general resource. Is there no danger of a dependent judge, such as you are speaking of, becoming a ])artizan with the executive power if there should be any difference between that and the represenliitives? — I think there is; but you must make your choice between opposite dangers. Then it is u mere question of choice between the two degrees of danger? — It is, as in all other human uftairs. >Sup|)osiMg that a judge should so misconduct himself, as you hswe stated is pos- sible, could not he be removed by an application to the Crown for misbehaviour? — He might bo removed for misbehaviour ; but my opinion is that the consciousness of dependence on the Crown would have a great tendency to prevent a sort of misbe- haviour, for which, though it might be extremely injurious to the colony, he could not be removed. Do you not consider that there would be less danger of the kind you before stated, of an influence upon the minds of the judges from their dependence upon the colonial assemblies, in so great a colony as cither of the Canadas, than in similar colonics where that dependence at present exists?'— 'In proportion as the population is greater, and the transactions of life arc more numerous, local influ- ences will press lesson the mind of the judge ; but still, even in Canada, the dense population nicct together in a very small space. In Upper Canada particularly, this is so. Do you consider that there is any thing peculiar in the situation of the Canadas which entitles this country to ask the Assemblies in those colonies for a greater degree of independence of the judges upon those Assemblies than i^ has asked or «)btaincd in any other colony ? — I think that in other colonies we have not asked nor obtained enough. If the question relates to what it would be abstractedly convenient to do, I should not toke the practice of the other colonies as a standard. !Vluit arc the practical inconveniences which have occurred in the other colonies in consequence of the dependence of the judges upon tiie Legislature r — The prac- tical inconveniences arc that the judges are inadequately paid ; that well-instructed and successful lawyers decline the employment ; that you have frequently judges who have no education preparing them for the judicial office. It would be invi- dious to refer to particular cases, but throughout the colonies a body of gentlemen are acting as judges, who, however accomplished in other respects, are totally destitute of a legal education. Are you aware that in those disputes which led to the separation of the North American ( 'olonies, which at present form the United States of America, from the mother country, this (piestion of the independence of the judges formed a great part? — Yes. Are you aware of Doctor Frnnklin's expressed opinion on this subject, of the utter impropriety of people in any free state allowing judges that were dependent upon till- Crown to become independent of tliem, us being utterly subversive of every free constitution '. — When the Caiuulas sliall have grown into a nation, large a\w extensive us the United Slates hud become, even ot the time when Doctor Franklin spoke, I sliould say tliat the time hud arrived for constituting indepen- dent judges. Tlie clanger of their iiiflependence, in my estimate, arises almost entirely from the pe<:uliar constitution of small colonial societies. Does not a greater degree of danger arise from .ic necessity which prevails, or is supposed to prevail, for sending judges from this country, and thereby placing them out of the sphere of their own natural dependence? — It is not a necessity which is merely supposed to prevail, but whicli, as I conceive, does to a great extent in tact prevail. If a suflicicnt number of gentlemen were educated in Cunudii to be compelent judges, (and there are at this time in Upper Canada, and '-,()(>. I' f3 I believe /, Stephen, job. Eiq. I ., — ■ * 31 June t8*V. f. Slepken, jun. Eig. •jl June 1818. 230 MIxVUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I believe also in the Lower Province, more than one gentleman at the bar com- petent to discharge the judicial office in this or in any pait of the world) — if the choice were sufficiently large, then the most urgent reason for sending judges from England would be at an entl. Do you think it necessary that the judges should be in the Legislative Council in Lower Canada?— I suppose it to be necessary from the want of other competent ])er£ons. Cateris paribus, I should prefer, as a member of council, a man who was not a iudge ; but if the superiority of knowledge, talents, and other accomplishments, were decided and unequivocal, I should prefer the inconvenience of employing the judge to the inconvenience of losing his assistance. Do you think that the circumstance, either of the dependence of the judges upon the Government for their continuance in office, or of the dependence of the judges upon the Assembly for their salaries, is at all influenced by the circumstance of their sitting in the Legislative Council ? — I do. Is it more or less desirable on that account? — If a judge, dependent on the Assembly for his judicial salary, is also sitting in the Legislative Council with a salary, he is bound to the Assembly by two ties instead of one. The dependence in which he is placed is consequently increased, and the objection to that dependence augmented. Do not you think that if that independence of the judges was once ascertained it would lead to thu sending out of men of rather a higher character as judges ? — Not unless their emoluments were much greater than it is. At this time a puisne judge in Upper Canada receives only 900 /. stei'ing annually ; he has no outfit nor passage found him ; it is a mere 900/. sterling. Now there arc few men who have borne the expense of a legal education, and who have had any sort of success in their profession, who would emigrate to a foreign land for such a remuneration. Would not the Government, if the judges were made independent, send out men of higher moral character, and men less likely to violat«i their public duties? — I entirely disclaim having meant to impugn the moral character of those who go at present ; I have questioned only their discretion. Do not you think that the sacrifice of duty to party fueling intimates a moral want ' — As an abstract question, 1 should say so , but in truth, men slide so easily from the highest morality to a lower and more easy standard of morals, that one would hardly impeach a man's character upon that ground. Is it not within your own knowledge that the individuals who are appointed to judicial situations in the coloi.ies always receive such testimony as to their charac- ter and competency as to justify their appointment ? — It is an established rule, and, I should say a settled practice also. Do you consider that il would be safe to leave to the Colonial Legislature the pow er of impeachment of the judges r — That w ould depend altogether upon the constitution of the tribunal by which the impeachment was to be tried. What should you consider to be the requisites of the tribunal before which such impeachments should be carried, under the conditions of which it would be safe to leave that power in the Legislative Body ? — They should be judges perfectly inde- pendent of the parties preferring the impeachment ; and they ought, if possible, to be judges quite remote from all the feuds and |)arty feelings of the colony in which the impeachment arises. In tiie case of the charter which has recently been issued for the constitution of new courts in the Cape of Good Hope, the power of removing a judge is reserved to the King in Council, but only 'ipon proof of misconduct. The King in Council then is the tribunal before which the supposed impeachment is to be preferred ; and that, in my mind, is the best possible tribunal for such a purpose. Are the Committee to understand that in the charter to the Cape, the King is deprived of the power of removing a judge except under circumstances of miscon- duct ? — Yes. Then in point of fact, at the Cape, if a judge were to mix himself up with local parties, unless it amounted to some ostensible act of a violent nature, it would be impossible for the Crown to remove him ? — It would ; but the charter is avowedly an experiment, and as long as it is regarded in the light of an experiment it may perhaps have a salutary effect in preventing any misconduct which might lead to an alteration of it. $ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 231 Mr. JVilliam Parker, called in ; niul fixatnined. YOU are a Merchant in the city of Loml«ii?"-=I itlti. Of what country are you a native ?-^0f Hcutluitil. Have you resided in Lower Canada?— I rettidud there 13 years without leaving the country, and afterwards made iipwrirtU of 'in voyages to Canada and Britain. Have you any connection and interest in thiU country nt present ?— Yes, very considerable; I have debts owing ; 1 Imve retired from business in that country, but I have very considerable debts outstanding there. What is the opinion you may iiavc fonni'd of tli(! general character of the popula- tion of that province from your own knowledge!?— I consider that the peasantry there are the finest people in the world that ever I met with ; I had un opportunity of knowing them very intimately, I succeeded uh n piirtncr in a French house in 1784, which had extensive canncctions with I'rench Canadian merchants, in the district of Montreal, when there was very little accommodation in the town of Montreal, and they all staid with us when tiioy (mine to town, which was very fre- quently, and therefore I was very much in their company. What are, in your opinion, the causes of the di^KLMisions which have prevailed in Canada for some time paft? — I think it is, in gome measure, owing to my country- men the merchants there, who are ambitious to be legislators ; and they are very much hurt that the French Canadians prefer their own countrymen as their repre- sentatives to them. What is the character of the mercantile population in Montreal which you have spoken of; are they permanently resident In tlie country, or are they generally people who make their money there, and tlien con>e over to England! — The French Canadians consider them not as fixtures, hut n^ movables, and therefore they have not that confidence in them tiiat they have in tlieir own educated countrymen. Has the interest you have in Canada imliiced yon to enter into any corres- pondence of a public nature relative to the cligHcnsions which have prevailed there, with a view to quieting them, and preventing their recurrence?— In 1822, when the union business was brought forward, I, jointly with Mr. Munro and Mr. Stansfield, addressed Lord Bathurst on bclmlf uf the Canadians, and since the late dissensions I wrote to Mr. Huskisson in September \%•i^ and January 1828; and these three letters I desire may be taken down us part of my evidcnco, ond inserted as such : as also the letter from Mr. Wilmot Horton in iHdJ. [The tviinemi delivered in the /ntnie.'} Air. William Parker. 11 June iS'iS. —No. I,- LEITER to the Right Honour»blB Had HathiifKt, dated 8 July 1822. My Lord, Q, Julia Street, America Square, 8th July 1822. Our attention having been drawn to a bill rtie@iitly introduced into the House of Com- mons, for uniting the tivo provinces of Upper iiiid Lowur Canada into one government, wc most respectfully, but most earnestly, eiUi'iml i)l' yiiiir Lordship that the measure may not be proceeded in until the sentiments ot' the inliitliilutilM xlmll have been ascertained. A long residence in the province of Lower C'aniuin, iiiul w connection of upwards of forty years with both these invaluable colonies, liitve ull'ortbtl im tliu means uf forming an opinion on the subject, and we feel it our indisponiiihle duty tti stnto to your Lordship our strong con- viction, that the hurrying of this meusui'u without glvittjj; the Canadians a hearing, is preg^ nant with the most disastrous conseqiiuncei. Allow us, therefore, most earnestly tu untrimt that it mny not be proceeded in until His Majesty's Government shall have )md an opportunity nf learning in a direct manner the sentiments and feelings of the parties whom it must eoiiiieriis. We have tlie honour to b« with inucli respect, Your most obedient servants, (signed) W" Parker, The Right Honomnble D. Munro, Earl Bathurst, K.G. G. Stanffield. 8ic. 8ic. Sic. 569. Ef4 WilUam I'nrhi; «i Juiiv iHil. S3a MINUTK8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE — No. a.— LETTER from R. Hortcn, Esq., dated loth July i8a-2. (ii'lHlenuMi, Colonial Office, loth July 1822. Lord Hiithiirnt dirorts me to ncknowlelj^c the receipt of your letter of the 8th instant, ro<|(i)men, your most obedient servant, ' (signed) U. Horloii. to William Parker, Esq. &c. — No. 3.— LKTTER to the Right Honourable William Huskisson, dated 27th September 1827. Sir, 9, John Street, America Square, 27th September 1827. The controversies and increasing hostile feeling between the Representatives of the Iloiisu of Assembly in Lower CV.nada, and the Executive Government of that province, liliikn so strong an impression on my mind as to the ]>olitical consequences of such au linhiippy state of things, tVmt I feel it my duty to make a conmuinication to you on the tt(ilt|rrt ; for impressed as I am with a deep conviction that the British North American colonies are of the most vital importance to the empire, as well in a political as commercial Itoiiil of view, csj ecially the two Canadas, which not only consume largely themselves of liiitisli inanufacttires, but are the indirect cause of probably more than three fourths of their pieseiil consun.ptiyii in the United State* of America, the government of which, were it not for the vicinity of our colonits, would exclude them by high duties in favour of their own itiliint inanufnctiiros, lieing at the same time convinced that these most valuable colonics can only be preserved to the British Empire by uniting the whole population of ihi' two Caimilas, and esjiecially the French Canadians of the Lower Province, in a Seiiluus and uimninuius defence against any pc ;iblo hostile invasion on the part of the (Joveriimeiit of the United States. Fiom the knowledge 1 have of the temper and feelings of lliu t'reiH'h Ciinadians, derived fium a long residence amongst them, and an intimate CoiiliL'ction w itii all the dill'erent classes of these most invaluable liritisli subjects, and more e»|it'('itilly with those of the higher orders, for nearly the last fifty years, I religiously believe, that n more loyal, brave, and hardy race of men do not exist on the face of the globe; nor tvho are more capable of the greatest military exertions, and which they gave convincing liriMili of nt their conquest by the British, when their numbers were not one sixth part of llli'ii iiri'scnl population. I feel truly proud of them as British fellow-subjects, and would ever ilvplore any unhappy circumstance that might throw them into the arms of the United bliites, the most (langerous rival of the British Empire, and who are iuinatiently waiting for this must important event to enable them to rid North America of British residence, in- fltit Mcc, anil intcrfcience with their ambitious and aspiring Republic. Under this deep fOMViclinn, I am fully persuaded that Government would consult the best interests of the empire by granting (and without delay) to the inhabitants of the two Canadas every right Hint privilege that the citizens of the Lnited States of America enjoy, with the exception of thoir dependence on the Crown of this empire as colonies. Tliey ought, in my liumble Opinion, to have the election (as the citizens of the United States of the Union have) of •very ollicer of the province, including their Governor, Lieutenant-governor, judges, &c. &c. ITMilcr these; very liberal circunistances I am convinced they would cheerfully consent to |)»y iill their own expenses, Great Britain of course to i)ay any military force she might tltitjm it prudent to keep in any of these provinces, una which would be all the ex|)ensc mteiidBnt on kee|)ing the two Canadas as colonies. S(i liberal a nieasure as this would etfectually secure the gratitude, confidence, and eoidial altachnienl of every Trench Canadian in these provinces, and would determine them to innke every sacrifice ot life and fortune that may be necessary to preserve their coii- nrrlidii with this ciiipiie against any hostile attempt on the part oi' the Government of the l/niti'd Sillies, whom they certainly do not like. I beg leave once more to repeat my firm COiiVM'lioii, that we cannot preserve our North .Vmerican colonics from the grasp of their iimlnlious iii'iiilili' ins without the zealous and cordial co-operation of every French Cana- dian in the Liiwir pioiiiice ; but, on tiie contrary, it' we secure their exertions, supported li^V a niodi'iiite lliitish force of about lo.oon men, I would not fear any luiinljeis that the l/liilcd Mate? could employ against them. Tliey would soon liiid their graves, or a prison, ill lliiit inleiesling iirovnicc 1 would be most happy personally to explain the gioMiiils on which iny opinion im UmiKlcd, wlien ym: think lit and at your conveiiienci', will do me the honour to a|)poiiit a timo to wait upon you for that pu 1 h; lave the liouuuv The Ri({lif Hoiujiii U lllilllU llu^kis'.(l Jfvc. i*\C. ike. I lor that purpose, to bo, with great respect. Sir, vour obedient servant. l,siL;iiedl 11'"' I'aikcr. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, 333 — No. 4.~ LETTER to the Right Honourable William Huskisson, dated 28th January 1818. Sir, g, John Street, America Square, 28th January 183H. I did myself the honour of addressing you on the 27th September last, with my mmUi- mcnts in regard of the unhappy diff(!rence.s existing between the Executive Government and Itie Legislative Assembly uf the province of Lower Canada, and of stating the danj{urouH consequences that might follow tnereupon, if not speedily removed ; but as I have received no intimation that my letter has reached your hands, I am induced, in order to guard ugainst its possible miscarriage, to hand you a copy of it herewith enclosed. 1 am the more desirous of doing this, as every event that has occurred in that province since the date of my said letter to you, tends to widen the breach, and to alienate thr J I Vfiiri, .l8,:j(i() ncres. The terms of tlie lenses lire, thiil ii|ii)ii 11 ln the (piestion. 'I'liat Act recites that doubts have arisen whether lands granted in the province of Lower Canada in free and common soccagc will be held and alienated, and will descend according to the Canadian or to the Englisri law ; and proceeds to enact thot such lands may and shall pass, by conveyance or descent, according to the law of England, liut the statute does not contain any retrospective language. 1 suppose the Legislature to have meant to legislate only for the future, leaving the past to be regulated by the past judicial decisions. Then with that view you do not think it would be desirable to pass an Act to quiet titles, and to confer on those indisiduals that have acquired property under tlie French forms an undoubted right i* — It would lirst bo necessary to ascertain with great exactness to wimt extent the grievance really exists. It would scarcely \)G wise to pass an Act of l^arlianient to provide for un insulated case or two. At present your statute prevents the Canadian Assembly from legislating on the sub- ject. I think it would be fur better to inipart the necessary powers to them. They are incomparably more competent to provide for the real exigences of the case than Parliament can be. If an Act were passed for the single purpose of erecting a legislative body properly constituted, and fairly representing the inha- bitanl.1, I would expunge iVom the Statute-book every single enactment res|)ecting the internal concerns of the province, and leave them to make laws for themselves. Do you know what ditiiculties have prevented the exchange of land from the French tenure to the English, under the powers contained in the Canada Tenures Act? — The Canada Trade Act was defective, inasuuich as it did not impose upon the seigneur obtaining a coninuitation the obligation of making a concsjionding commutation in favour of his censitaire. That defect was supplied by the (Canada Tenure Act. Has any land been emancipated under the powers of those two Acta? — I appre- hend not. Do you know what has prevented them ?— As far as I uin informed, the difficulty has arisen from the terms wliich the Governor in Council recpiired from tlie only applicant for a commutation, and which that gentleman tliought too high. Is there, in fact, a value attached to the right of the (JovernmciiL, tlie extinction of which would make Government practically a loser.' — I apprehend that the value is considerable ; but the rights of the Crown are not to be estimated on the same principles as those of a private person. The Crown holds this pro[ierty in trust for the Public; and as the public interest woulil greatly be promoted by llicsc commutations, I think that the Crown would act wisely in ii)a!f the inconvenience tiiey complain of? — I apprehend that so long as tlie law respecting notarial registrirs, and the law res|)ccting the legal consequences of iiiur- riage on the jMopcrty of the jjarties, remains unaltered, the English will be deterred from settling in tiie country. I am aware of no other rule of law on tin.' suhjeet of civil rights which would deter them. Do you think that |)ers(ins with English ideas and habits prefer the mode of dis- tributing land after their death equally among tlmir children, and that they have no opinion in favour of the right of [iiiuiogeniture ? — In new countries, where ihero is no aristocracy of birlli. and w here the opiniou:^ or prejudices which How from that institution are scarcely known, the law of primogeniture of coinse has u very weak hold on public opinion. May not those consequences of marriage tl.at you linve alluded to be barrosing a person marries in England, and goes to Canada, having made no niarringe settlement, acquires property in Canada, and dies there, by what law is his property in Canada to be administered? — It would depend, I think, upon the place of his settled domicile at the time of his death. Supposing he becomes donticilcd in Canada ? — If he becomes a settled inhabitant of Canada, and acquires a domicile there, then I suppose that the consequences of H marriage previously contracted in England without any ante-nuptial contract, must depend upon tiie law of Canada. I conceive this to be the general international law of Europe, I should rather say of Christendom. The general principle may perhaps be superseded by some pos-itive law existing in Canada. But in the absence of any such positive law, I should in the case supposed, look to the lex domicilii. I mean of course to be understood with many limitations, which I could not state without a large demand on the time of tiie Committee, even were I prepared to state them. In any other colonies are you aware that the obstacles to the settlement of En< . ' 24 June 1838. would it not be desirable to have separate courts in which the law respecting real property held on the tenure of free and common soccage should be administered ? — Perhaps that is a mere question of economy. If you can uftord the English a separate court, with competent English judges, it is of course desirable that you should do so. It appears to nie, however, that, without any additional expense, the object might be obtained by a modification of the present system. There are now nine judges, four at Quebec, four at Montreal, anti one at Tliree Rivers. This is a very ample establishment for ,'500,000 persons. The nine might be easily so stationed and selected as to administer justice to both the races. If a court for the administration of the laws relating to real property, under the tenure of free and common soccage was established in Montreal, might ihere not be circuits into the townships, and courts held from time to time in particular dis- tricts, in which causes might be tried arising out of matters connected with property held on that tenure? — There may be conclusive objections to that scheme arising from locaUties, of which I know nothing. I can perceive no technical objection, or at least none which could not be readily removed. When it is considered that the French law in Canada is applicable to all personal contracts and all personal property, could it be worth the expense to have any courts established for the administration of tiiose few cases in which the law of Eng- land as applicable to real property might apply ? — The more closely you can bring the administration of justice home to the doors of the people the better. A man living in the townships has mucii to do, and would have a formidable journey to take for the redress of his grievances, or to give his evidence, if tlie only courts were established in the three towns on the Saint Lawrence. Supposing tliat state of things to exist again which did exist previous to the passing of the Canada Tenures Act ; in that case would there be any necessity for any new courts to administer English law as applicable to real property ? — On that supposition th^ nature of the law to be administered would create no such necessity. But the topographical circumstances of the country would create it. A court of justice, easily accessible, is a matter of the first and most urgent importance in every society. Even if the same law prevailed over every acre of land in the pro- vince, tlie remoteness of the courts, and the difficulty of approaching them, would be a serious evil to the inhabitants of the townships. As the communications improve, that evil will be diminisiicd ; but till then it must be felt very sensibly. Must not the instances be extremely few in which it would be necessary to admi- nister the Englisii law with regard to real property, if a state of things existed in which the French law was applicable to all lands in free and common soccage after till' fir.«t i;rant of the lands r — If that state of things did exist, I cannot perceive how any question upon the English law could arise for decision. Then your opinion is, upon the whole, with respect to that subject, that either an enactment placing tlie law upon tiie footing upon uliich you supfKJse it to have stood before that Act, or a dwlaralion of the law upon tlie subject, would be bene- ficial r — My opinion is, that thi only reasonable course of proceeding is to create a legislative body in m hich you can repose confidence ; and iiaving done so, to leave them to make such laws as they may tliink necessory. It is vain to attempt to establish laws of minute detail on subjc x ts of this nature by acts made on otie side of the Atlantic which are to operate on the other. Would it not be necessary to intuse into the Representative Assembly a larger portion of persons representinii the interests of the townships, in order to secure the enactment of such laws as tlicy desire? — My opinion is that you must very greatly a'ter the constitution of liie Legislature of that country before yon can implicitly trust it witli carrying the necessary retbirns into elicct. What the proper alteration would be is a question on which it would probably not be required of me to express any opinion. W iiut would he the consequence of introducing a larsaw proportion of repre- sentatives returned by the English townships? — The cofMiequences will be so numerous that it is impossible to advert to them all, and it is difiicuit to make a selection. One obviuus result would he the excitement of new and bitter con- troversies between the IVencli and English |)arties in the Assemhiv. If the members were returned with reference to population, the Fieiicli would lie powerful enough to cany all llieir iiieasiires, and you would have more violent conflicts, and probably still greater disconteii'.s, than at present. If indeed the two parties in the Assembly approached to an etjuality, the Governor, by the sagacious, just and temper ite Freno a greJ of thJ and ll 1){ not g| rcinel pondl ciipaf Jt Ihl us w(| and \V| CaniT . t ,1.. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 343 tcmperato use uf his powers, might so moderate between them as to produce comparative repose. Wi-.crc tliero are conflicting; interests in a population like that of the Canadas, does not it appear reasonable that tiiose conflicting interests should each of them have representatives to supfiort those interests? — It seems to me a very bad system of government to be making a studied provision for conflicts between opposite parties in the state. The jzreut object is to secure tranquillity and peace ; and I thiiik you secure them best by that sort of balancing of parties which, as we see in this country, loads to mutual concessions, by producing in each party a v^hole- sonie dread ot its antagonist. You arc aware that in this country it is supposed by some that there is a conflict between the commercial interest and the agricultural interest ; would you think it desirable fur the sake of peace that one of those interests only shouhl be repre* sented ? — Certainly not. Can you inform the Committee what system prevails in Upper Canada for the purpose of increasing the number of representatives in that province? — In Upper Canada liie Kepresentative Assembly consists of the representatives of counties and of towns; and each county containmg 1,000 persons sends one member ; when it contains 4,000 persons, it sends two ; but however much the population may in- crease beyond 4,000, there is no further increase in the number of members for the county. Is a large nortion of the surface of Upper Canada parcelled out into counties ? - A considerable portion. Are there many counties in existence in which there is this latent right, which have not yet aci|uired population enough to give them one member ? — I cannot answer that question with accuracy. Whenever there is n county in that predica- ment it is thrown into the next least populous county of the district, and volos willi it. Thus if there is a county possessing only 900 inhabitants, those persons would vote as freeholders of the least populous county in the district containing above 1 ,000. Can you slate wiulhcr that system is found to operate well, or whether it affords a subject-matter ot complaint ?- - As fur as my knowledge extends, no party in the province, (and parlies tliere arc in violent opposition to each other), has ever com- plained of it. Do you happen to kno.v, whether, in the United States, any similar system exists? — I believe, but am not coriuin, that it exists in the States of Vermont and New York. Is it within your knowledge that the Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada at one time passed u bill, the object of which was to provide (or the increase of that Assembly ? — Yes. That bill stopped in the Upper House • — It was rejected by the Council. Do you know for what reason it was rejected? — It is stated to have been rejected upon the ground Ihat it was improperly framed. The imputed impropriety, as I am informed, was, that instead of diminishing the inequality between the French and the Englisli iiituresta in the Assembly, it tended to increase it in favour of the French, If in adding to the number in the Legislative Assembly in Lower Canada the principle of pu|>ulation is alone looked to, must it not necessarily follow that the influence of the French Canadians will be constantly increased?— Supposing the French race to increase w ith the same rapidity as the English, there will always be a great preponderance of the French interest if population be made the single basis of the repii'senluliou, because at ihc prciicnt time the French are about 400,000, and tiie luiglish cannot exceed bo,ouo. Do you believe tiuit any scheme of leprcsentation can be adopted which shall not give a great preponderance to the French interest? — I can suppose a scheme of rcpreseiitulion wliicli at some remote period would deprive the French of that pre- ponderance. The territory occupied by the English is more extensive, and is capable of sustaiuing more iuhaliitiuits than the territory occupied by the French. It then, in the scheme of rc|)rc.sentation, you have regard to ' - -extent of territory us well us to the exit nt ol pojiulutiou, a day wil.l al leugtii an „ when the French and English nieuibers \\ill l)u (.'(|uull) Imlanced. What arc the instances that occur to you in which the French population of Canada have interests distinct from those of tiie linglish population f— I conceive ,5()tj. II h V* that J. StephcA, jun. 84 June l8a8. 244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. SttpktH, JUD. Euf. 94 June 1818. that their divisions do not originate in any real contrariety or incompatibility oC interests. Large bodies of men are seldom much moved i)y a merecuniputation of interest, and still more seldom have any clear view of what their interest really is. The contest is not upon any questions of political arithmetic ; it has much deeper roots ; it grows out of national prejudices, and is a matter of pride, passion and sentiment. The interests of the two races, rightly understood, are the same ; but they feel too warmly to understand those interests correctly. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that the law which was proposed for altering the representation would have had the effect of diminishing the English interest in the Assembly? — I know it only from the information of other persons. Are you aware what number vrould have been returned in the English interest under the new law, and what number is returned under the present law ? — The calculation is, that there would be nine new French, and two new English repre- sentatives, whicii, being added to the existing state of things, would make about fifty-three French to about seven or eight English. Would not that have been rather more than the existing proportion of English? —The proportions fluctuate so continually that you cannot compute them with any exactness. Men are occasionally changing their parties ; and one movement of that kind will in this case largely affect the proportion. Do you think it would be desirable to apply the system acted upon in Upper Canada in any alteration that may take place in Lower Canada, in the election of the Representative Assembly ? — If I may express my own opinion as to what altera- tion should be made, I should say that the two Canadas ought to be re-united. If •that plan be rejected, the next best measure wouki, I tiiink, be the introduction of the Upper Canada law. What steps ought to be taken in order to carry the Upper Canada law ^nto effect ; in w hat way could it best be ascertained into what portions Lower Canada ought to be divided ? — Of course it can only be ascertained by persons resident there ; and there must be a new Act of Parliament. Must it be passed by the English Parliament ? — Yes ; because the existing division of the country, with a view to representation, depends upon the proclamation issued under the authority of the Englisii statute ; and because this is an innovation which the existing Assembly will not voluntarily introduce. Do you consider the inconvenience arising fro>n having two systems of descent of real property in one province a sufficient ground to overturn the system of legis- lature of the province, for the purpose of removing that inconvenience ? — To the question proposed in that abstract form I should answer no. If that were the single inconvenience. I would not alter the legislative system in order to remedy it. *Vas it not upon that ground principally that you rested your wish to have the le- gislative system altered ?— My reasons for wishing to have the legislative system of Canada altered are many, but chiefly this : If you persevere in the present system, I fear it is but too evident that you are sowing the seeds of sc[)ariition between the Canadas and this country. In what way would the continuance of the existing state of things unaltered be likely to lead to a separation between the Canadas and this country ? — I cannot too anxiously disclaim the intention of iin|)eaching the loyalty of His Maiesty's subjects in the Canadas ; it would be the height of impropriety were I to suggests doubt of their fidelity to the government under which they live. I have no reason to doubt it ; and on the contrary, have many reasons to know that a spirit of cordial affection to His Majesty's person and government has been very recently n)anifested in those provinces. I speak only of w hat is future and probable. Consider then v hat is the situation of the Upper Province, and of the English part of Lower Canada. 'I'he colonists occupy a territory imbedded among foreign states. On the one side are the Americans, on the other the French Canadians, who though living under the same sovereign are essentially foreign to the Upper Canadians in language, laws, insti- tutions, habits and |)rejudices. Natme provided the Hudson to ihe south, and the St. Lawrence to the north, as the great channels of communication between the English territories and the rest of the world. But the people of New York com- mand the Hudson, and tlie p a 1 i ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OP CANADA, 2^5 Is it good policy to make them continually {ov\ llmt a union with the great republic to the southward would open to them rlmnnuU of comuicrciul intercourse, from which your laws have interdicted them ? — Cm it li« mipposml that they will always be content to lose the vast connnercial uilvbUtoKiiit which tlioy would derive from their unequalled inland navigation if their intcrcoumti with the ocean were unim- peded i A capitalist in Upper Canada can employ \m property only in agriculture. If he engages in trade, it must be cither in tlitt Unitud States as an alien, or in Lower Canada under all the restraints which H I'Vench Legislature may impose on liim. I recommend a union, therefore, as the only iiHW'tuul mode of rescumg the Upper Province and the English townships from diMidviinlttgcs to which I think it is neither just nor safe to subject them. Uut I ndviite it also on this further ground. It is vam to conceal the fact that the Act of 1791 hnit established a monarchical government without securing any one meons of authority or influence to the monar- chical branch of it. The Government can neither control by its prerogative, nor influence by its patronage. The ties by which tho people are bound to their sovereign are not of the same strong and enduriiin character as the corresponding obligations between the king and the people in tho old European States. It is im- possible to suppose that the Canadians dreiid yoiu' /mitr, It is not easy to believe that the abstract duty of loyalty, as distinguished from the tetithnent of loyalty, cart be very strongly felt. The right of rejecting Kuropenii dominion has been so often asserted in North and South America, that revolt c«n scarcely be esteemed in those continents as criminal or disgraceful. Neither does it scdni to mc that the sense of national pride and importance is in your favour, It cannot be regarded as an enviable distinction to remain the onl^ dependent portion of the New World. Your dominion rests upon the habit of subjection ; upon the undent aflcction felt by the colonists for their mother country ; upon their confldcnce in your justice, and upon their persuasion, that they have a dire<;t intercHt in mtiintuining the connection. I fear that all tliese bonds of union, and f»ipccinlly the sense of interest, will be greatly weakened if you persist in excluding tlieni from nil control of the navigation of the St. Lawrence. But even if all thcNO llcd retnttin, they are not tiie surest .supports of empire. When thinking, us I have often thought, on the apparent fragility of our tenure of the Canadas, one, ond only one, mode of strengthening it has occurred to me. I would bring the l''reueli and English representatives with an equality, or some approach to e(|uality of nundicrit, itito the same Legislature. I would appoint over them a governor poHsessing temper and wisdom enough to moderate between the two parlies. By maiiitoining ti scvc ro regard to justice, and to the constitutional rights of the KingK Ntihjects of every class, he might acquire a large and legitimate influence. 'I'his J know iit 11 tu?k not to be committed to vulgar hands. But I am much mistaken if ft great and permnnent accession of pow er to this country would not be derived fiom the mild, lirni, and just management of the two great* ()arties, equally holuitced and counterpoised in the same assembly. If the state of colonial dependence is so injinion* to flic commercial interests of the Canadas, is it evident that a union would improve their condition ? — I do not apprehend that the commercial dependence i» injurious to their interest ; on the contrary, as tiie law of England now stundH, it is liighly advantageous to them. They have privileges in the English UiBikets Hhich other nations have not. What I said rather was, that the English population of the (/unadus are so surrounded by foreign nations that in fact all connncrce ii interdicted to them, except on the most inconvenient terms. Have they not a great advantage over tho i»tnle» of North America by having a free access to the trade of Great Britain r-- 1 think they have. Does not that more than counterbalance any disadvantHgo that they are under from their exclusion as colonies from a free truile with other countries f" — A dry and accurate computation would, I believe, prove it ; but largo bodies of men are not much governed by calculations of any kind. You nnist tuldiess their affections or their imagination if you desire to move thorn, Uid you in your answer mean to ritf-'r to the inconvenience which arises to the Upper Province, from the circumstance of the ly laws which they have no share in making. Is tliero no mode of reconciling that but by a union r — I can imagine none. Is there any risk under such a system of the party who is not favoured by the CJovornor looking to foreign aid r — I assume, as a postulate, that you have a novcrnor who will have magnanimity and discretion enough to favour neitlier party, but who will maintain a just, an equitable, and a benignant uiediution between both. Do not yuu see very great inconvenience in the circumstance of the immense (liitottcc of dift'ercnt points of the C.'nnadas from each other, along a line of country nxtendiiiK no less than 1,500 miles ; do you not think tliat that circumstance would present tiie greatest difficulties to uniting them in one Legislation ? — In the first place there IS not a line of inAn^/'/ec/ country extending 1, 500 miles ; it scarcely rtiuclies 1,000. In the next place the country is inlcrsected by great navignbif waters, and the steam-boats would convey the legislators backwards and forwards readily enough. Hut the difficulty anticipated probably is, that a Legislature sitting At Montreal or any other central place, would be inconveniently remote fVooi the dift'ercnt parts of the country, and that the members could not be adequately acquainted with the localities. Now I assume that the Legislature would be dis- posed to delegate a part of its own powers to various local atid subordinate autho- rities, such ns quarter sessions, corporate towns, and justices of tiie peace. It would reserve for its own interference only the great and more important questions. Just as in this country parliament does not make laws for every hundred or parish, but establishes a kind of county and parochial legislation throughout tiie kingdom. Are you not aware that in the United States the disposition has constantly been ill favour of subdivision rather than in favour of amalgamation .' — The circumstances of the United States and of Canada are so different, that analogies of this kind must be admitted very cautiously. Tiie motives, which in my judgment should lend to a legislative union between the Canadas, could not operate on any of tha states composing the great American Union. Do you not consider, that as the whole English population of the Canadas is ubuut vjfi.ooo, while the French popuitttion is about 400,000, that the disudvan- tiige would be greater than the advantage, in disafl'ccting so largo a proportion of the population as would be disaA'ected by the union r — I hold it as a settled point, that whatever you do, or whatever you decline to do, you must reckon upon a great mass of discontent and uneasiness. The measure I propose would at leas) conciliate many. If you leave things as they are, I believe that no one will ho gratified ; some change seems to me inevitable. Ijo you not consider that part of the discontent and inconveniences that have arisen may be attributed rather to the administration thun to the constitution itself P •^Somc jmrt has probably so arisen, but comparatively a very small part. The great source of these controversies is the (lifVerence of the two races, combined with liio diH'crcnces between the territories 011 wliicii they aic settled. Their national antipathies are whetted by many accidental contrasts between their respective situations. Dad government may exasperate tlicse evils, but the most perfect government, without a radical change in the system, could never cure them. Do you consider that the difference arising between two nations are better healed by bringing them face to face in the same Assembly than by keeping them apart? — \ (HI cannot avoid bringing them face to face in the same Assembly, tor that is the present system. Upon tlic plan 1 propose tiiere would, it is true, be a "leater nuiiilicr of op|)Osing faces, but then the number so opposed would be in much greater equality. They will learn to respect each other's power, and will become compHratively quiet. Do yon suppose that the Act of 1791 is founded upon false principles? — I do, Tlitj Alt of 1 791 was, I think, in effect an .Act to create two new Republics upon flif* rontinent of North America. It contains no one eliectuul provision for sup- |>orting the monarchical power. Supposing the measure you contemplate to take place, do not you think one of its effects Mould be to render Upper Canada mucii more physically powerful? — . Yes, I should think it would. Would not it also have a tendency to depress the French population of the pro- vince who are not commercial men, and people of difttrent habits? — I think tiiat tho ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 947 J. Stightn, jun. £1,. the ccr.iparative depression of the Frenclj, at no very remote period, ii inevitable. They will sink under the weight of the English, or of the Anglo-Americaa influ- ence in these provinces. >•■'■ - .^ ■ Have you had any means of forming an opinion of what the sentiments of Upper *'^ '''"** H^* Canada are upon the subject of the Union? — I apprehend them to be in favour of that scheme. I cannot doubt their concurrence in a measure by which their great object of legislating for the Port of Quebec would be secured. There is ulso this negative proof of their approbation of it, that when the scheme of the Union was agitated the Upper Canadians never concurred in any of the protests against it. Do you think it would be desirable for the Government of this country to propose that or any other great alteration in the fundamentals of the constitution of the Canadus, without giving that country full time to express its opinion upon the subject? — Extreme measures of that kind are only to be justilied by an extreme and evident necessity. If the extreme necessity couiu he made out, I would not hesitate to take tiie extreme measure. It is jusi reduced to that question ; and there are many persons intimately connected with the Canadas who are greatly alarmed as to the consequences of < ostponing this measure, even till the year Do you apprehend no danger from giving the French Canadians so extensive an influence over Upper Canada as they must necessarily acquire if the provinces are united ? — I believe the danger will be wholly in the opposite direction. In a Legislature which is to debate in English, to make laws in English, and to proceed according tu English parliamentary rules, the English influence must necessarily predominate. Iksidcs there is a peculiar aptitude in the English character for success in this species of controversy. If an alteration was made in the Assembly of Lower Canada, by laying out, for the purpose of representation, divisions of the townshipi>, and such portions of tho country as were likely to be settled by the English, do you think that the change thereby cITected in die Legislative Assembly of Canada would be likely to lead to an union, and to diminish the objections made to it? — You will never have ii voluntary union until there is a majority of English to carry the question of Union; but up to that point you must proceed through a series of conflicts which would tear the province in pieces. Supposing a union to take place, and that the English interest should become quite paramount, and the Canadians quite depressed, do you consider that this country would have a stronger 01 weaker hold over the country on that account ? — I can hardly anticipate the possibility of such a total depression of the French interest as the question supposes. I would legislate from the commencement upon this principle, that the representatives shall be drawn equally from the two races ; of course I do nut mean with precise numerical equality. Hut if provision were made for equalizing the two races in the Assembly, then you might, I suppose, calculate with great confidence upon either party retaining considerable strength for a great length of time to come. Do you mean that they should be equalized in point of numbers ? — I would have a legislature (assume for example's sake) of 100 members, of whom I would propose that 50 should be French and 5,0 English, and I should expect that under the mediation of a wise government they would proceed amicably by compromises, as other legislatures proceed. Do not you think that the habits of the English population, and their tendency to commerce, make it likely that they will have a superiority over the French population ? — I think they will always form the commercial part of thp society, und having the superiority of wealth, and probably of intelligence, they w ill groduully obtain (as on that hypothesis they ought to obtain) a superiority in all other respects. Are you acquainted with the Act called the Sedition Act m Upjier Canada r — I am acquainted w ith it by having read it some years ago. Do you know the circumstances under which it was passed? -It was passed iu the year 1814, soon after the commencement of the late war with the United States of Ameiica. Do you know the powers it gives r — It gave very ample powers; it suspende*! the Habeas Corpus Act, and it gave the governor and iMcmbers of council a power of imprisonment in all cases of treason or suspicion of treason. Is that Act still in force in Upper Canada ? — No, it expired at the enil of the war. jiiy. H h 4 Have 348 WINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMllTEE J. Sltphen, jun. £17. 14 Juae i8il. Have there not been severnl bills from time to time which have passed the Legislative Assembly, and have been rejected by the Upper House in Lower Canada?— Several. Can you give the Committee any information as to the reasons for which those bills were rejected ? — The bills that have been rejected, so far us I have any know- ledge of them, are these. First, various bills of supply were rejected on the ground that the Assembly asserted by them the right of appropriating the whole revenue of the province. Secondly, a bill for enabling the inhabitants of Canada to maintain suits against the Crown was rejected, because as that suit would have been tried before the Governor and Council, the same object could be more readily answered by a petition addressed at once to that body. Thirdly, a bill for regulating fees of offices was rejected because the Council did not think the ofliccs useless or the fees improper, l-onrthly, bills for establishing corporate bodies for the government of the cities of Montreal and Quebec were rejected as not iiaving been properly framed so as to promote the general interest of those places, but as tending to promote the private advantage of particular individuals. Fifthly, some bills for improving the administration of justice were rejected under the following circumstances. In the years 1819, 18.21 and 1823, bills for the same purpose were sent from tltc Council to the Assembly and rejected by the Assembly. In 1824 the Assembly sent a bill to the Council, which was lost, because the Council had not time adequately to consider it before the close of the session. In 18.^6, another bill transmitted from the Assembly underwent great amendments in the council, but failed from the lateness in the period at whicii it was sent up. In 1837, a bill for t!ie administration of justice was read a second time in the Council, but the proro- gation of the House prevented any further proceeding upon it. Sixthly, a bill for regulating gaols was rejected on the ground that the object ought to have been provided for by a local rate, instead of the charge being thrown upon the public revenue. Seventhly, a bill to regulate the office of justice of the peace was rejected, because it fixed the qualification at too/, per annum of freehold estate, and the Council were of opinion that this was unsuited to the circumstances of the country, and would have excluded a great many useful men. Eighthly, the Militia Act was amended by the I^!gi$lative Council and returned by them four days before the prorogation in 1827, but never came back to them from tlje Assembly. Ninthly, the bill for increasing the representation of the province was rejected for the reason I have formerly mentioned. 'Icnthly, a bill for securing public monies in the hands of the receiver-general was lost, because it deprived the executive government of their authority over that ofiicer, and did not require that the public money should be accounted for to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. Eleventiily, a bill for the independence of thp judges was rejected because the eftlct of this bill would have been to render the judges subservient to the Assembly by exposing them to impeachment and trial before that tribunal. Twelfthly, the bill for appointing an agent was rejected because it was intended to establish a distinct correspondence between the Assembly and the agent of the colony, in which the Governor would not have participated. I should state that in assigning the reasons for the rejection of those bills, I am taking upon me to speak on subjects of w hich I know nothing except from inquiry and hearsay. I cannot pledge myself to the accuracy of this account. I can only say that such is the account received in the Colonial Depart- ment. What are the usual powers of colonial agents ? — There arc two classes of colonial agents. In those colonies which we cull (the phrase is an unfortunate one) " Conquaed Colonies," where there is no legislative assembly, the agent is appointed by the Governor, and corresponds with the Governor. There is no other consti- tuted authority competent to make the appointment. In colonies where there arc representative assemblies the agent is appointed by an Act of Assembly. He is so appointed by name, and a salary is granted to him in the Act itself. The Act usually constitut'.s a joint committee of the Assembly and of the Legislative Council, to correspond with the agent. Tliat officer is in habitual communication, on the atfuirs of his constituents, witli the Colonial Department. Making all iluc allowaiKC for the disparity of the two offices, the agent of a colony is uccretiitcd in the Co!i.>ii of those monies i — They are applied by commissioners appointed hy tlir (iovttrnor, Do you know whether that ex|ienditure of nioitry Iiiih hren attended with any good results?— -It is not in my powur to give any iitiuiinntion on that subject. Do you think that an improved system might U- itdoptod with regard to roads? — I apprehend it would be desirable that mntlerH ol that nature should be done by the vicinage, and under their iniinediute direetion. Would it not be desirable that an otHcer nhould lii< iippoiutud in each township or each sub-division of the province, who khould liiivii itower to providi; for the making of roads? — That depends on many Iwiil ronsldcialions, which I cannot cstiniatc; I can only say, tliut I lliink it would im dcfiiruhlo to act upon the principle of leaving the local districts as fur us posslblo to regulate their own local concerns. Do you know what bills have been jiuksml, tliit olijoct of which has been to regulate the education of the people f— Tlie hills tor logiilntiMg education tire the 4i9t of Cieorge the 3d, c. 17, by which thetioveinor was uulhorizcd to incorporate certain persons as trustees of the schools of Royal louuilallon, A president was to be appointed by him. Free schools were to l)e erected In each parish, which were tu he governed by rules to be made hy the corpoiiilion. Thai body was to buy the land, the parishioners were to build the kliooUhotlne, und the (iovernor was to appoint the schoolmaster. The statute 4 (Jeo, IV. e. Jl, declared tvLry fabriqu» or vestry in the province capable of holding luu'l lor tlia support of an elementary school. One school was to be established in every paiivh having aoo families. The schools were to he under the same ndministrntion Mini inspection as the fabrique, and \\\q J'abrique was at liberty to employ oiie-fointh of its income in sup|)orting the school. The Ahsemhiy have uiiidu various grants for the sup* port of schools, 400 /. were granted for the iiupport of scliouls at Quebec and Montreal, and one of 1 8,noo /. in 1 H'jO for the nupport of schools generally ; besides four other grants which were iimdu lor (he same purfxise in the same year. Is that system in operation which was enacted hy those bills r — I apprehend that the first Act has not been enforced ; the Act erecting elementary schools I believe to be in operation. Do you know any thing of the Hystem of educullon pursued in those schools? — Not at all. Is it complained of at all on the ground of its religious character? — I have never heard of any such complaint. Do you know whether there is much conflict in l.-l unoerstand that there has been. J believe that much controverny arose respecting die Act for erecting the corporation. The Uomaii Catholics were afraid that th^iir children would be exposed to some temptation to change their religion, and did nit choose to send them to those schools. Are you acquainted with the steps that have been taken for the apportionment of the revenue between the two provinces? In the year I7<),j commissioners were first appointed to treat with Upper Canada respeeting the rollcction of duties, and the payment of drawbacks. An agreement wu« Hceordingly made bctwe >n the two provinces, to the elKect that Upper Cunuda was ii(;t to Impuse dutic<> on goods imported into Lower Canada ; and that one eighth of all duties levied in the Lower Province should be paid to the UpjHT Province, This contract was to be in force till December ^^^)6. In 1706 a seeoiHl eominissioii of urbitnvtion with Upper Canada was appointed. In the year 1708 the powers of this co.-nmission were prolonged, and its number increabed. In next year, 1799, 'h^'X completed a contract, the terms of which I tlo not very exactly luiderstand ; but I think it oontinueid in effect the former agreement, In the year 1800 commissioners were again appointed. In the year 1801 they a third time revived the old coni'ract. la ON THF CIVIL GOVERNMliNT OF CANADA. 25 • In 1H04 tiiero wag another appointment ot' cuinmiwioncrs ; aiul in 1H05 the contract was again confirmed. In 1811 the agreement was continued (ill 18^4; in that ycur it whh further prolonged till i8i(». In I817 cummitt-iiuiiers were again appointed tu meet; und in the interval 2o,uuu/. was paid tu Upper Cauudu uii account. In 1818 a new compact was made witii Up|»<;r Ciuiadu; the ill'ect of which was tliut one fifth of all duties was to be paid to the Upper Province, aiul that no import duties were to he levied tliere. The provinces could not afttrwardi come to any agreement ; and tlie Act was passed by which tlie Parliiiuient gHvo the Upper Province one fifth, till the arbitrators should have investigated the case. The result of that investigation has been to give to Upper Canada one fourth. In the Act of the 31 Geo. 3, giving the constitution, there is a clause «hicli enacts that when the provincial Icf^islature enacts any thing respccliog the churclf- lands, modifying either the state ot those lands or affecting to regulate the appoint* ment to benefices, such acts must be laid before the British Parliament, and if the British Parliament disapproves of those acts of the Colonial Legislature, the British Parliament is empowered to petition the King to withhold his assent. L)o you think there is any possibility of extending that kind of remedy to any of the matters which have been (he subjects of dissension between the two legislative bodies of Canada ? — I think that would be nothing else than to transfer to Parliament the duty which at present belongs to the ministers of the Crown. Instead of those controversies being agitated in Downing-street, they would be carried on in one of these committee rooms. The plan suggested, as I understand it, is this : suppos- ing either House of General Assembly to pass a bill, and the other to reject it, that Parliament should decide whether the bill was properly rejected. If you adopt such a measure, I think that in that case you must: appoint a standing Canada comm ttee here; and I am well convinced that the two Houses of General Assembly would firovide that committee with such abundance of occupation, that its duties would be of the most formidable nature. I confess I think the present constitution in that respect is incomparably better. Your opinion upon the whole is that nothing of that kind would be practicable i —Yes ; the practical objection is that they would give you more to do than you would ever get through with. J. sifpktHiiun, V ^. / 84 June ital. Jovis, 26° die Jiinii, 1828. Mr. IVilliam Hamilton Merritt, called in ; and Examined, ARK you a native of Upper Canada? — I am. Are you a proprietor in that province? — Yes. Are you at all ncquaintcd with the disputes now going on in that province, respecting llie Clergy Reserves ? — I urn not particularly acquainted with them. I know the situation of the Clergy Reserves, and the way they are held. Is the improvement of the country miiteriallv retarded by the manner in which the clergy reserves have been laid out? — Yes ; liicir being separated and distributed through the country proves injurious to the settlement of the remainder, as they do not equally contribute to the general improvement. Do you think it would be possible to sell any large portion of the clergy reserves in the course of a few years?- -I think it would, if the country was pro- perly improved ; but in the present situation of that country it is impossible to sell land at any thing like its real value ; and to this subject I am particularly desirous to draw the attention of the Committee, to show the relative value of property in Upper Canada compared with the state of New York, and the price of Itind in the two countries. To what causes do yon attribute the difterence in the value of land in Upper Canada and in the state of New York ? — The principal cause is in the present boundary line or division of the country, which excludes us from the advantages we should derive by participating in the commercial wealth of the country, and enabling us to improve its internal communications. Lands in Upper Canada are no* one-fourth of the value they are in the state of New York, and property not one-tenth. To what particular districts of country do you allude? — I allude to the whole extent of both provinces, with the exception of 1.50 miles on the St. Lawrence in •,r!(). I i 2 Upper Mr. W. H. MerrUt. \. J 36 June i8a8. 35a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. W. U. MirriU. 9(iJuii« i8f8. Upper Canada, Itclwctn tlif iMHimlary line and Kiiinslon ; in lliis distance w« possess equal advantagcit in our internal cninmunications, and property is equally valuable on either side, according to its local situation. Will you jwintout some particuinr part of Uppt-r Canada to which your observa- tions apply ?— From Kingston upward ; particularly on Lake Eric or above Ihe Niagara river. In what way doi-s the want of a »ctt-|x)rl town affect the value of land in Upper Canada? — Hy excludinji u» from any participation in its wealth. The capital of all countries centres in its cities ; for instance, the wealth of the state of New York centres in the city of New York, and the wealth of Upner Canada centres in Montreal; they brina a portion of that wealth back from New York to improve the country, by building mills, making roads, canals, &c. &c. in consequence of which, together with the cheapness, facility and regularity in their cuinmunicatiuim, they can employ capital once a month tluriug the navigable part of the season in converting gram into flour, and sending it to market. Wheat always brings a better price with them, although the market may be better with us at Montreal than witli them at New York ; this has a tendency to make projxjrty more valuable, and to change hands readily ; wiicreus with us there is not v. single instance of a Montreal or Lower Canada nicrchmit ever expending a farthing in Upper Canada. Ii is true they posscits liirge triicts of land in that province, which they have been under the necessity ut taking in piiyments of bad debts, but never lay out i s. in improving them for tiic general advantage of the country. We have not five flouring mills wiiich can be considtied mercantile within tiu miles of the Niagara frontier, wiiilc the Americans have upwards of .50 ; the consequence is, while wheat always conunund ciisli with them it can only be bartered with us, and instead of once a month we cannot employ capital in purchasing grain to make a remittance oftencr than once a year. Property is merely nominal, it cannot be turned into money. We think by possessing a sea-port we would improve tlie interior, make it an object for individuals to invest money, create business, and produce an entire change, and place ourselves in full as good a situation as our neighbours. If a merchant in Montreal had capital to dispose of, and had an opportunity of employing it advantageously in Upper v'anada, would he be prevented from doing so by the circumstance of the territory lying under a different jurisdiction ? — No ; but wc know Upper Cunada is nut now in a situation to have capital advantageously employed, and we think it never will as lung as that unnatural territorial line exists. Almost every Hiitish merchant, for years past, has been dissatisfied with the country ; and a great puitiuii of the capital accuiiiuluted in Montreal has been sent either to tliis country or the United StHtes. Wc hope to place it in a situation to induce the inhabitants to look torwurd willi a view of inuking Canada their pcrniaiunt residence, and proiluce a favourable ciiuiige even in this feeling. Is it solely with the view to the probable return of capital into the country that is amassed at Montreal, that you recommend this measure, or is it with a view to any commercial object?— It is with a view to tiie general interests of the country in every resfiect, the accession of both capital and credit, that port would give us, would enable us at once to set about the improvement of the St. Lawrence, by following the example of the state of New York. Within three years we would make a sea-coast of all those upper lakes, and possess nearly the same natural advantages over the Americans, in our access U the ocean, we did before the com- pletion of their canals, relieve ourselves from paying a tax of 4 /. \os. sterling per ton on all our imports, 1 /. 4,?. on our exports ; save the country from 100,000/. to 200,000/. per annum ; inatcriully promote the agricultural and commercial interest of that country, as well as the mercantile, manufacturing and shipping interest of thi.s, and enhance the value of all property fully ecpial to wliat it now is in the state of New York. Then your complaint is that tlie Assembly of Lower Canada does not improve Montreal as you would improve it : — Our complaint is not with respect to the city of Moi.treal, but the whole country ; the improving of the one part will benefit the remainder ; they have only one general interest. Is your complaint tlien that the Assembly of Lower Canada does not meet you in improving the navigation of ttie St. Lawrence between Montreal and your limits ? —When we see a neighbouring state, without the aid of any revenue from foreign tommcrcc, or duties on imports of any description for its own use, connect Lake- Erie ON THE CIVIL (lOVEHNMKNT OF CANADA. 953 Ki'k! uitli the Hudson, Irom lliin'al(x>, I.nkc Ontario, from Oswego, and Lake Cliatnplitin from White lliiil, hy cuiiuIh ; to construct which they had to ascend liiuii Hiiinuiit.s 011(1 kurtnuunt the most I'ormiduhie obstacles ; while the natural out- lets of ull tlioie lakes ure iti the St. I^iwrcnce, und could iiavc been connected with the oeeiin in Cuniulu, by u .steam-bout or shipcannl, for one- fourth of the money it required tu construct llieir boat-canult, we have reason to think there has been at least a very i^reut want of attention to tJie subject. At the Mame time, I have much xatisfuction in .statins timt the legislature of Lower Canada contributed to the connection of l^kcs Krie and Ontario, by taking stock to the amount of 25,000/. in the VVellund Canal Cnin|mny, and manifested at the time the best disposition to promote any useful improvement, and many individual members since then have expressed their readiness to assist in the improvement of the St. Lawrence, although it is not reasonable to suppose, on general principles, the people of Lower Canada can feel the same interest in improving; the country aliove them, as those who have to pay for every barrel of Hour they senti to Montreal, utie-third jf its value for freight, and on our heavy and most u.seful articles from Montreal, such as Knalish iron, one-hay' the amount of its cost. I will mention u case in point to prove this. Every member from the city of N7;w York opposed the appropriation of money for the construction of tiie Eric cunul ; it wus carried by the intluence und number of the western members, who felt the same interest in the undertaking we do in this ; and although it has proved equally beneficial to the city, they would nut have had a canal to thin day if the state hud been divided or separated us we are in Upper and Lower Canada above Montreal. How can u line which only separates two jurisdictions prove such an insurmount- able barrier to the wealth of Upper Canada? — The reason is simply this: Upper Canada cannot participate in the commercial wealth and advantages of a sea-port, the same us it would be in the state of New York if there was a line drawn acro^: the state above Albany, and it was laid out into two sepuratc states ; the upper could not participate in the wculth of New York, und would remain poor. The main cause of the prosperity of that state is in having capital returned from the city, and the Legislature possessing power to rommond the credit and capital of the whole for tiieir mutiial benefit. So satisfied ure they that their boundaries could not be bettered, that w ith ull tlieir propensity to changes und to try experin ^;nt8, no man everdreumsof cutting the stale into two parts; they change the cons .ution, cut it up into counties, and create as many new otlices as they con, but the natural iioundaries of the state remain untouched, although their population is about J, 000,000. Every state in the union, where un angle can by possibility be run to the ocean, possesses a sea-port ; and it to iiappens that the money to eliect the internal improvements in tiiose it as theirs, until the lute war, since which their rapid increase has taken place. They borrowed t),ooo,ooo of dullnrs on the credit of their state, constructed their canals, added 100,000,000 of dollars wealth to the state by the increase in the value of property. The tolls now pay the interest of the money, and will redeem the principal in a few years. It is impossible to conceive the efl'ect opening those communications produce in a new country unless they are witnessed. This is the true cause of their prosperity, which they could not have cfl'ected without the aid of the city of New York ; and I maintain we only want the city of Montreal to enable us to produce similar results un a much greater and more beneficial scale. Do you contemplate as necessary for the attainment of that object the union of the two provinces, or do you think that your object would be sufficiently attained, if the division of Upper Canada were to extend as low as Montreal?— I think that would be suflicicnt without a union. Do you conceive that such a division would answer all the purposes of commer- cial intercourse, and would be more advantageous than an incorporation of the two provinces into one ? — I think that ultimately a union would be more advantageous, but we uould avoid all the difficulties that the people of Upper Canada anticipate r.f'!). I i J If W. Mr. H.MtrrUt. id Jun« 1I18. a54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. W. U. Mtrriit. • „ ' sGJuM iBuS. if a union was to take place : they think they would be under the influence of a majority in Lower Canada, Would it be possible to make such a geographicul division 'of the provinces by running a line down the river Ottawa, nnd then passing north and west of Montreal, so as to include in the l^pper Province none of the seigneuries of tlie Lower Province? — No, it would not; there are four or five small seigneuries between Montreal and the present boundary line. Supposing a similar line were run from La Prairie, on the other side, to the river Richelieu ; are there any seigneuiies south and west of such a line?- Yes, there are four or five. Is not a great proportion of the English population in Lower ('".nada included within the town and seignory or island of Montreal ? — Yes. Do you conceive that the majority of the property and wealth of the town of Montreal is in the hands of the English or of the French Canadians ?— The numbers are in favour of the French, but I should think the commercial property ib in favour of the English. Were not the whole of the seigneurial rights of Montreal in the hands of' uio seminary? — Yes, 1 understand they were, but the Government had a clas.. fo them. Are you aware that the Government have come to an agreement by which they have in their power those seigneurial rights, with the intention of making a mutation of the tenure? — No, I was not aware that they had. Would the commercial object of the Upper Province be answered by annexing Montreal to it ? — Yes. In what way can goods be carried to Montreal ? — Any vessel of 400 tons cuii go direct from this tc Montreal ; and as I before mentioned, although the distance Ih 3,200 miles, the freight is only 1/. is. 6d. per ton; whereas the next 400 miluH it is t) /. 1 2 «. 9 J. Do you think, if you had the town of Montreal as a port of entry, you would be able to control your own imports, and levy your own duties? — Yes, without any difficulty. Witiiout interfering in any manner with the province of Lower Canada ? — Ym ; the inhabitants of each country should be allowed to purchase freely in the other. Supposing a vessel bound to Upper Canada were to pass through the St. Law- rence, and no duties wero to be collected upon lier at Quebec, would it not be passible for her, in her passage up the St. Lawrence, to smu<:gle those goods into Lower Canada for consumption tlierc? — They could not smuggle into Lower Canada between Quebec and Montreal with any greater facility than they can now smuj'^^iC between Quebec and Anticosti. There is no smuggling now, that I am awai'<; of; and it would be much against the interest of this country, as well as Canada, to put on such high duties as would tempt smuggling. We arc not, and should not be put on a footing, or considered as two foreign nations with separate interests. A manifesto, or clearance, is put on board the vessel in this country ; they would enter at Quebec or at Montreal, as they pleased. Do you know any thing of that district of country iielow Quebec? —No, I merely passed down on the river once. Do you object to the arrangement that has been made with regard to the division of the duties between the Upper and the Lower Province ? — No ; I do no think the division of duties important ; it is of very little consequence to the /(onerul prosperity of the country, whether a few pounds, more or less, arc paid ei her to Lower or Upper Canada ; their general interest is, or rather should be tin same. I am warranted in my opinion respecting the etiect of duties liy witnijssii g their proceedings in the state of New York, from which I draw my inferences . She derives no particular advantage from the revet. .i» on her imports ; tl ey arc exclusively under the control of the general government ; itill she is jiiahled to appi'opriate large sums annually for education ; pays her civil list, and accom- plishes the most extensive internal icnprovemonts, without any aid from tii( general govarnmeut ; while we, with a revenue of y j,ooo /. per annum, cannot pay even our civil list. The principal object and the greatest advantage the provinces will i lerive by the accession of Montreal to Upper Canadas is, that hy placing the internal vealth of the country ct her own disposal, she will b*- enabled to appropriate a portion of that wealth in the improvement of ilic interior, and make the country rich enough to ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 355 to defray its own internal expenses, and not depend wholly on taxing BritiBb coniinercu for every local purpose. Uo you apprehend that there would be any serious objection, on the part of the French Canadians of Montreal, to be transferred to the Upper Province? — I cannot say. My own opinion is, if they had an opportunity to compai^ their present situation with the advantages they must derive by the change, they would not ; and I know tiiat every man in Upper Canada would be in favour of it. Do ^ou think it would be just to introduce among that population a new law, with all its incidents r — I do not see the necessity for altering the law as it at present stunds. The French law, I have no doubt, would be gradually altered, as changes might seem advantageous. If the accession takes place, they would rapidly become English, if we can judge from the result at New Orleans ; and as this state of things, from our local situation, must take place, I thi^ik it just and politic to bring it about as soon as possible, that we may be one people. What is the law that prevails with respect to personal property in Upper Canada r — The same as here. Does it ditler in any way from the administration of the law, as to personal property in Lower Canada? — I am not acquainted with the administration of the law in Lower Canada. Is there, or is there not, any diiference with respect to the law of personal property in Upper Canada and in Lower Canada ?— I cannot say. It has been stated by some of the witnesses before this Committee, that it would be easy in practice to establish such a system of custom-house regulations, at the present point of division between the two provinces, as to enable the inhabitants of Upper Canada to impose what taxes they please upon goods coming into that province, and to levy them without any danger of smuggling from the Lower Province, in case of any variation of duty between the two provinces ; is it your opinion that that would be a practicable arrangement? — No, I think it quite impracticable. Will you state why you think so? — There are many reasons. If a temptation was oft'cred for smuggling it could not be resisted ; for instance, in the winter the country is covered with snow, and they could go into Upper Canada whenever they pleased ; they might enter in various nays, by boats, sleighs, waggons, &c. as they formerly smuggled between the United States and Canada. What is tne extent of the frontier between Upper and Lower Canada, throughout which smuggling might be carried on ? — Many miles, from St. Regis, opposite Cornwall, near the nhole length of Lake St. Francis, thence along the boundary to the river Ottawa, and so on all the line of that river. Supposing Montreal was the port of entry in the Upper Province, what would prevent smuggling from the Upper Province into the Lower Province ? — There would b« no necessity for that. The inhabitants of Lower Canada might go and buy from the port of Montreal, and the inhabitants of Upper Canada might go and buy from the port of Quebec the same as they do now ; they pay no duty oa crossing the line between Montreal and Upper Canada. Supposing an inequality of duty in the two provinces, and that an article were to pay a Icss duty in Upper Canada than it paid in Lower Canada, what would there be to prevent tiiut article from being smuggled into Lower Canada in consequence of tliat infrriority of duty '. -If either province were impolitic enough to put a higher duty on any one article than was paid in the other province, the consequence would be, that every body would go and buy in the place where it was lowest; but us I have before mentioned, there s'lould be no second duty after goods are once landed, eitiier at the port of Quebec or Montreal. Supposing tiiat Louer Canada imposed a duty upon rum, and that the Upper Province imposed no duty upon rum, would it not be the interest ■ f the inhabitants of the Lower Province to buy tlieir rum in Montreal, and to bring it into con- sumption in the Lower Province? — It would. r>() yod suppose it possible that there should be diU'erent scales of duties in the two Cunadtts under any circumstances ? — I do not. The duties at present are reg.iluted bv the Trade Act* ; and if a much higher duty on any one article were imposed, it would prove injurious to ourselves as well as the grower or inanu- fuctiirer. For instance, ruin, cotl'ee, sujmr, to our West India colonies, who receive our tlour in exciiHUjii', and on goods to the nuinufuclurer here. The cheaper these din be uitru«l«on them being too high, but in general tiiey arc not. Mention the article upon whicii you conceive smuggling to take placer -I cannot mention any particular articles. Are you of opinion that in consccjuencc of the nature of tlie Irontier, between the United States and Upper Canada, it never would be practicable to enfu.'cc ih«- payment of duties upon articles whicii can be aflordcd cheaper iVoni the United States to Upper Canada than from I'^ngland, including the expense of freight? No, I think not; if you place a higher duty ujion .nicies from tne United Stnles than will pay the expense and risk, they will smuggle them in, and it will be im- possible to prevent it. For instance ; the whole of Upper Canada was .sujiplied with tea from the United States, before tlte India Company sent their ship.s to Quebec direct (although the article was prohibited altogether). Now the tables are turned, the Americans will be supplied through Canada with liritish manulactures, because we take less duty than they do ; they will smuggle one hundred to one more than we do. The Uritisii manufactures will be sent in by the St. Lawrence, and if HC improve the facilities, tliey will be carried to the remotest part of I Ipper Canada, and they will be smuggled in great quantities into Amen- along that line. Can yon inform the Committee how far the English law of descent jirevails in Upper Canada? has it been moditied by local statute? — It has not; a bill was passed in the Lower House, but not in ilie Upper. Can you inform the Committee of the modification vhich that bill proposed ? — It was niaking a certain distribution of the property \ hen a person died inlebtatc, but I do not know exactly w hat tiie division was. With respect to the law of mortgage in that colony, can you state precisely how that law stands ? — A mortgage is given as a security upon property, any person can foreclose it and sell it. Is money in point of fact lent upon the security of mortgage It is. Is there a general system of registration- — Ve^, the legistratimi is very simple, each county has a register offire ; if a person wants to buy jnoperty, he go»s and pays iv*. (Jd., and he finds inmiediah'ly whetlier it is incumbered ur not; for if the person iiad incumbered it and not registered it, the person who bought it aitd re- gistered it would hold it. Then all mortgages must be registered in order to be eftectual '.--\ es, every tltiitg aft'ecting the conveyance of land. Is tliat system found to work well - -It is universally approved of , ti^el•c i.- not a person in the country who doe-, not tee! the benefit of it. Do you know in what form maningt :-»'tdements arc drawn ■ - There are uo marriage settlements tliert that I know of , it is vei y a^-ldoni Uiat iiuv tbiin; o) the. kind is entered into. Is there any system of entail of jiroperty •' -No. How do they provide for widows ? -They get one-third at ilie i^-ath of the husband ; they are entitled to dowir according to the English km Uo they getono-third both of all tiie original landed i»f>perty ol il»eln««band ,\w{ of all after acquired land ? — Of all that he has at the tim» M' his dea«ti ; iit he selb any property, she bars her dower on the deed . Can yon state what is the |>ievaiiing practic- m WiliiDi}: is it the piaclicc to make an eldest son as it is called, or to leave the pioperty iw^ually distributed '^ - That depends .dtogether upon the wish of the person. Have you known instances of both ? — No ; if a perm ' does not w isli to divide his uroiMjrty, he does not make a will, because it then go* to the eldest soii. Which is the more freciuenl occurrence of the two?— Tin general practice i,-, (o make wills. Do you conceive that the American settlers who have settled in Upper Canada arc attached to the laws of Up|)ei Canada, or that they have a preference for the law,' •m-' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 'm laws of the United States? — I think they arc decidedly attached to the laws of Upper Ciinndn, which arc very similar tu those of tlie United States. The inha- bitants of Upper Caniida arc more attached to the present form of government than they are to tliat ut' the United States. They gave the most convincing proof of it by their conduct (hiring the late wars, at the commencement of which there was but one regiment of sohlicrs, tiic 41st, on the whole froniier between Kingston and Sandwich. Tiie country was repeatedly invaded during that year ; and to its inha- bitants, us tiuiu composed, is its defence during that period principally to he ascribed. Those pco|)le were aihnitted into Canada on the most liberal principles before the war ; and the most impolitic and injurious measure the Government of this country ever adopted towards that was in excluding them since. Many people, to uiy certain knowledge, sold their property in the state of New York, where they were dissotislied in paying heavy taxes for the support of what tlicy conceived an unjust war, with a view of setlUng in Upper Canada, came to the frontier, found a restriction, and proceeded on with their capital to the state of Ohio, to the unex- ampled increase of tltut state. We most materially contributed to the very great injury of Upper Ciuuida, and the depreciation in value of property. The Americans are the njost useful and enterprising people wliich can settle a new country ; and their principle is to defend the country they live in, not the cne of their birth; and many \vho hud not settled in Canada one year were as faithful to it as any native. However loyol the general ciiaractcr of the American settlerj might have been, were there not some exceptions? — Yes, there were a few; but full as many among the Kuropeans, in proportion to their number. Arc you a native of Upper Ccnada? — I am not a native of it; my father was an American loyalist, and I happened to be born in the state of New York; but I have lived all my life in Upper Canada, and my feelings are wholly Canadian. Do you consider it to be the prevailinw wish of the Upper Canadians to remain connected vvlth tills country ? — Yes. 1 here never was a country more happily situated than Upper Ciinada in her connection with this country. From her soil, climate and situation she must be wholly agricultural ; you receive her produce on more favourable terms iliiin tiie produce of the Americans; we receive your manu- factures on paying a. moderate duty of about two and a half per cent, while the Americnns are now paying from ."io to 1 00, consequently w must obtain our sup- plies at u ninch clieapcr rate. Every person will not only see but feel this advan- tage, so that i)y securing our interest you have the best guarantee of our attachment anti cunneclioi). Wc are naturally rivals to the Americans; we grow the same artiitlcH, seek tlie best markets, and endeavour to draw the jiroducts of each other ihrough our different coinumnications. The only thing we require, as before stated, to place Upper Canada in the most enviable situation, is unrestricted immigration, an uninterrupted comuumicution to the ocean, and the possession of a commercial port. Inde|)en(leutly of the advantages tiicy derive from the trade of this country, do you conceive it to be their wish to continue a province of this country ? — Yes. The only measure adopted by our Cioverument, that I know of., which gave general dissatisfaction, was in placing restriction on immigration. The reason I heard assigned tor this measure iminediutelj after the war, when it took place, was that the aii mission of American settlers would be a means of disseminating demo- cralieal priiuiples, allliougli no evil had arisen from those who came before tlie M «r ; on llie <'oulrary, they proved equally zealous in its defence. If, in truth, their form ol governincnt i- better adapted for our country, it is quite impossible, from our continual i.itcrcourse with them, to prevent our imbibing those prin- ciples; and uny Htlcuipt to prevent it cnvcys an admission that wo think it the best, and docs liir more injury than service. That portion of the inhabitants of . till- United Stiites who would settle in Canada would give a decided preference to our (foverniiicnt, ii\d would make the best subjects and settlers, upon the same pri:" Ipli', and for the ^uuie cause, that the great majority of English, Scotch and Srish who settle in Auiericii become the most violent democrats in that country ; for neither party would j^o and settle under any government without being predisposed in its favour. The only ilillerence in the form of government in the state of New , York and Upper ('aniulii, consists in the appointment of CJoveriior, Upper House or Legislative Council, and magistrates : the Ibrmer, with us, is appointed by the m'nj. K k Crown Mr. W, H. Merritt. 36 June 1838. ■* ■'. -tv .1-, Mr. . JF. H. MerriU. aGJune 1828. 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Crown during pleasure, the Upper House for life, (independent of both Crown and People,) magistrates, &c. by the executive ; our parish officers elected by the people. They in New York elect the whole, and in this only do we differ. We have the full benefit of their democracy without its attendant evils. They are continually electioneering and changing every officer in the state, from a governor to a con- stable; constitution and all. In a late change in their constitution they adopted universal suffrage as it is termed, paying no regard to proper*". This is found on trial to create much dissatisfaction among themselves. A man in office being dependent on popular favour, (if he wishes to retain his siturtion,') makes it a study to please the majority, right or wrong, and cannot act independently. Many of them feel the effect of this, and we sec it ; and I am sensible but few, if any, in Canada desire a change. Therefore independent of our interests, which is the governing motive, we have good reason to be satisfied with our form of Govern- ment. Then ynu think it the prevailing wish not to make the Government more democratic than it is at present r — I do. Are they satisfied with the constitution of the Legislative Council as it at present exists? — They arc so far as I have any knowledge ; it would be better if they appointed, in the Legislative Council, men more generally distributed over the province instead of so great a proportion being resident at York, as it would add more weight to the body ; and I think late appointments have been more distant. They were at an early day. Arc they satbfied with the constitution of the clergy corporation?— Those that do not belong to the Church of England are not. The Ciiurch of Scotland want to get a share of the property, and if they were to get it, and it was only between those two churches, I think tlie people in general would be more dissatisfied than they are now, because all the other denominations would lay claim to it. M'hat is tiie prevailing religious belief in the Uj)per Province ? — They are divided among a number ; I think the Mclhodists are tiie prevailing opinion, and I think Jiey have done more good than any others. Do you mean the Wesleyan Methodists ? — They are of the same faith, but belonging to a conference established in the state of New York ; they came into that country when it was very new. Do they connect themselves at all with the Church of England r — No, they are quite separate. Arc their ministers generally Americans or Englishmen? — They are divided; there are a number of Upper Canadians among them. Have you any reason to believe that persons of different religious persuasions are in the habit of conforming to the worship of the Church of England when churches are built and clergymen provided?— I do not think they arc; 1 do not think they like the form of it generally ; my reason is, that there are more of other persuasions than of the Church of England. What persuasion do you belong to yourself? — I belong to the Church of England. Do you happen to know how many members of the Assenibly in Upper Canada are members of tlie Church of England ? — I do not. Are the churches fully attended as far as you know ? — In some places they are ; it depends altogether u|)on the situation of them. Are you acquainted with the Act that goes by the name of the Sedition Act? — Yes. Do you know the history of that Act ? — It was an .Act ))assed a long time ago, during the troubles in Ireland, in order to prevent Irishmen, who might be conceived to entertain dangerous principles from coming into the country ; the only instance I know of its ever being acted upon, was in the case of Mr. Gourlay. What are the powers that it gives ? — It gives power to a commissioner of the Court of King's Hench to order a person out of the country ; if I go and take an oath that 1 Ijclicve that such a person has not taken the oath of allegiance within a certain time, and that he is a dangerous man, the Commissioner orders the person out of the countiy, if he docs not choose to go, he is then confined. Is there no appeal ? — No. Mr. Gourlay is a ease in jwint ; he was ordered to leave the country, he wonld not, and was put in gaol. H as ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 359 Has the House of Assembly repeatedly (iMsed billii to do Kway with that Act ? —It has. Have tliey been constantly rejected by the Lef^Ultttive Council ? — They have. It is then in existence at this moment F—It ii. Do you liappen to itnow by what majorities in th« 1 louse of Assembly those Bills were carried? — They were carrlv^d aliituitt uimniiiioutly in the House of Assembly. Has it not been for some time post the iirftt Dill that the House of Assembly always passed before it proceeded to other buiineiH (*=-*¥ es. Do you know upon what principle tlie I^giilativo Council refuse to repeal the Billr — I have heard the Bill was rejected IwcauM they conceived no evil had arisen from the existence of the Act, and they tlid not conceive it necessary to repeal it ; but, in my opinion, it would be u uuod thing if it was done away with, it is a useless law, and it gives needless disKatiwfaction. , Do you follow any profession in Canada r —^No, 1 do not. Do you hold any situation under tho Ciovcrnineiit?— Nothing but an honorary one, T am a commissioner of the peace. Are you a holder of land in U pper Canada f—l am. You state that a law was made for preventing Iriith from coming into Upper Canada, is there any prejudice at this niumeiit iiguinst the introduction of Irish emigrants? — On the contrary, they conceive it vary beneficial. Is it the general opinion in Upper Canada, that their interests and their re- sources would be materially advanced by the incroaitc of their population ? — Cer- tainly, the interests and resources of Upper Canada would be materially advanced by the increase of population. Do you think the Legislature of Upper Canada would be prepared to concur in ony measure for the introduction of population into that country ? — I think they would, but it would depend upon what footing their concurrence was required, they could not contribute money just now, if tlieir natural situation is improved in the way I have mentioned, they will be Me to ttn^ist in any thing. Do you think that if they had the meanii of ««i*i«ting they would be disposed to assist in it ?— Yes, if we are placed in the nituution that the state of New York is, by possessing a port of our own, we will be enabled to contribute to any measure for the advancement of the country. What part of Upper Canada do you reside in '{—In the district of Niagara. Do you know any thing of the auministratton of justice there? — Yes. Is it in a respectable state, or is it disapproved of ? — It is in a respectable state. JVr. tr. H.Mtrriti. 36 June 1838. ( I Samuel Gale, Esquire, again called in i and Examined. YOU have already stated to the Committee that you attend here with a view to represent the feelings and the opinion*) of the inhabitants of the townships of Lower Canada; the Comuiitte wish to ask you, with respect to the tenure of lands in the townships of Lower Canada, and particularly with respect to the laws which are held to be applicable to it ; tiie Committee uro informed that in the opinion of iiiany persons, although the land is held in free and common soccage, yet never- theless all the Frcncli laws (ipply to it, both with respect to dower, alienation, descent, and giving security for money borrowed j what is your opinion upon those subjects ? — I consider the Canada TeimrcH Act not to Imvc established a new law, but to have confirmed the law which pie-uxitttcd lor township lands. I consider the Canada Tenures Act to be in uliort no more than it purports to be, namely a declaratory Act. My opinion upon thone gubjccts, even antecedently to the passing of the Canada Tenures Act, wun that Knj/lisli laws alone were legally applicable to the huids in free and cuniinon Hocciige. Do you mean with all the incidents r- All the incidents relutiu • to land in free and common soccage in the townships of l.ower Canada I hiivt upposed to be the same as those which, derived from the Kngtisli law, have been always held applicable to land in free and coinmon fioecage, upon liio establishment of other English colonies. Is that the general opinion entertained in the townships? — Tlint I know to be the prevailing opinion in the townships, and I can htuto tiiat I have understood it to be the opinion of gentlemen of the lugheitt cuimidorutiun in England at the time that .'•,69. K k J the Samuel Gale, Esq. .■r Stmvfl OaU, i6 Juna ilsK. aCio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE the Act of 17f)i, giving a constitution to Lower Canada, was passed ; I have under- Rtootl iilio lliHt Mr. Grenviiie sent out to Lower Canada a draft of tiie Act of 1 791 , upon which draft it was distinctly stated by him in a marginal note, that, as under the Act of the 14th George the Third (i774)i soccage lands were exempted from tli« French lows, they were considered as falling under English laws. In 1 804 I he- llevo tlio opinions of some of the Judges in Lower Canada were taken upon this •iihjcct, and as far as I understand there was some difl'erence of opinion among thorn upon that point ; but I always conceived, in common with almost all whom I liiivo heard discuss the subject (except the French Canadians) that the Act of the 14th Geo. 3, (unless one of its most important clauses was to be blotted out, nnd considered a perfect nullity and a dead letter,) intended to assure to the soc- cngt) lands, in other words, to the townships, the English laws. The clause must be to interpreted, or it could have no meaning at all ; it is as follows : " Provided nlwnys that nothing in this Act contained," (namely the Act of 1774, which esta- lillfihcd French laws for the seigniories,) " shall extend or be construed to extend to Innds granted or to be hereafter granted in free and common succage." If that cIhiiio was intended to have any meaning at all, it was intended to exclude abso-' lillely the Frencli laws from operating upon soccage lands, and this was obviously the interpretation given to the Act of 1 774 in England, os well as by the English generally in Lower Canada. The laws of England were assured to Canada by iliit Maicsty's Proclamation of 17H3; they were acted upon under this Proclama- tion. '1 he right to English laws wos therefore considered universal in Canada when the Act of 1774 was passed. And that Act, not as a right but as a boon to the Hoigniorics, established French laws for them, but declared that their operation DJionld not extend to soccage lands. The former right to English laws out of the wignioiics wns therefore still maintained even by the Act of 1774. The Canada Tenures Act was only confirmatory of this right. It would be somewhat strange, nnd not very Just, if what was given as a boon to the seigniories should be allowed to destroy the right which was reserved to the givers and their descendants in the \a\u\n granted or to be granted in the soccage tenure. 'I'hough that matter appears so clear to you, and though you state the authority of Mr. Cirenville, confirming your view of the subject, does it appear that the Juclg>;8 of t/)wer Canada unanimously concunod in timt view of the subject, or tliitt others have the same view ? — I have stated that I have understood that there Mat a diflerence of opinion among the Judges on that subject before the passing of the Canada Tenures Act The French Candians of the seigniories and their ndlicrrnts I believe interpret the matter differently from the Englisli inhabitants of the townships. The French desire the extension of French laws and institutions, the Fnglisii of English laws and institutions. The French law was given by the Act of 1 774 to the seigniories, although England was bound by no pledge or pro- iniH' to tlo so ; it was probably meant as an act of favour to the French Canadians, bftuusc they formed the majority in the seignoiries. The English constitute a greater proportionate majc ity in the townships tiian the French do in the seig- niories. 'J'lie same claims to favour in the establishment of their laws, which can nrise from their constituting the majority, the English possess in the townships as the French do in the seigniories, even if that were all ; t)ut tiie English Govern- ntciit and English Parliament, are bound, by repeated and sotenm pledges and pro- nii'tivt, to confirm English laws to the townships. Tiie townships are entitled to Kllglii
  • iif nil liiiidfi iiiny lie liruugltt to sliorift's sale. It is the privilt'xo of iiuturiu* mid t'crliilii olDciiil cImrHCtcrs, tliut whatever nets urc pushed before tliein, (Huppii^iiiK llir>W •;.'■ '>;i»WflO(p!.T ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 265 passed before other public fuiictioiiariea coiistituti! similur tHcit and general mort* gages,) to ••stublish for the fleigiioriesa system of registry sufficient to enable persons to know whether tliey ure secure or not in innking purchases, or in lending muuey on '' uiortgHge. Tiie objections nnide by niuny French Canudiuns to the estabiithinent of registries in the seignorics in, thut tiiey could not be rendered etficicnt without producing alterations in their French laws. Now this is an objection which cannot hold iti the townships if the English laws alone ati'ect real property there ; and this is one among otiier reasons why the inhabitants of the townships, and all who desire the improvement of tin country, are so anxious that the lands in tiie townships should only be subject tu F'nglisli liabilitirs, because then registers may be established, as they are established in Tpper Canada, without interfering with the French laws ia the bcignories, which the Canadian leaders wish to maintain and extend ; besides, if any portions of the English law should occasion inconveniences in tlicir operation, fears arc not entertained that the seigiioriul legislators would be Mithheld by any fondness for such laws from altering them when desired. In what form is security given for money burrowed on land in Upper Canada? — It is granted by a mortgage of a description similar to the English mortgage, but shorter, which sets forth the specific properly, and this mortgage is registered. There are registers, I believe, in each of the counties. These matters are there attended with no difficulty, ulthough tiie inhabitants ure mure scattered than they are in Lower Canada. Enrcgistration in Upper Caiuiihi gives publicity to cverv deed or encumbrance on land, and a prior instrument, nut registered, would nut atlcct a sub> sequent one which is registered ; so that a prudent man in Upper Canada can always ascertain whether he is secure, which in Lower Canada he cannot do. Can you say, of your own knowledge, whether persons who have accumulated money in that country are more willing to lend on mortgage on the security that exists in Upper Canada than that which exists in Lower Canada ? — I do not reside in Upper Canada ; but I should take it for granted that they niiist be mure willing to lend where they can ascertain their security than where they cannot. Will you be good enough to explain why, in your opinion, the law of registry is more easily and more effectually applied to lands held in Upper Canada than to ihosc held upon the French tenure in Lower Canada r— liecuuse in Upper Canada there is no such doctrine of general mortgages arVecting property acquired and to be acqiiiied without specification. 'J'hc notarial or official mortgage, or hypothSque, is not known there. The mortgages there are special, and they may be drawn and passed before any persons. Property not described is not bound ; and the registry of the land described, which is what gives efiect to the mortgage, must take placers passed for lu.v. each. Supposing the Canada Tenures Act to be in full force, and that a person about to marry, being possessed of real |)roperty in the townships, were to call upon you as a professional man to prepare a marriage settlement, and that he stated ho wished to have a life-estate for himself, and to have his property secured for his eldest son, and so on, would you create in that settlement un estate-tuil, with all its incidents, with remainder over?— I um not prepared to answer that question, as my professional pursuits have been almost wholly limited to French civil iitw. Before I attempted to draw an instrument of that description, I should have to consult authorities. Supposing that, according to the English law, the proper course would be to create an estate-tail, by givmg the life-estate to the fnst sun and his issue, and upon failure of his issue to the second son and his issue, would yuu adopt that practice, and create an estate-tail r — I might perhaps do so ; but I um not pre- pared to answer. Are you aware that by doing that you would bind up the property for ever, unless there were some court in which that entail could be barred by fine and recovery ? — As I have said, I shoidd have consulted authorities, and have en- deavoured to avoid ii .cen h ri'unber of petitions for turnpike-roads within the last i8 years, which have bt:cii all uniformly rejected ; and the state of the roads in some instances, even very near the cities, is extremely bad, and sometimes dangerous. Where are the roads bituated that it was wished to establish turnpikes upon ?— Near towns, or in places where there wa.i a great deal of travelling. Have those bills or applications been rejected in the Lower Hou.se? — They have, as I understand. Can you inform the Committee what were the grounds generally pleaded for their rejection ? — The Canadian inhabitants of the country do not like them, and they consider them a species of taxation. And they would rather be without the road than have that taxation? — Yes, I have known a number of carriages broken dowrrfrom the badness of the roads even ii\ the vicinity of the town.'. The English inhabitants were the general petitioners for iurnpikcs, and they would have subscribed money for that purpose. Do you know any thing of the law of descent to landed properly in Upper Canada? — The law of descent in Upper Canada, I believe, is the English law of primogeniture; but I believe the mass of English inhabitants there would ijesiro that law to be altered. Is there not some local statute vihick has modified that law?— A local statute lias either been passed, or has been attempted to be passed, but I cannot say which Is it, or not, the prevailing opinion in both provinces that the law of priuu)geuiiuro is not suited to those colonic3? — I believe that the inhabitants in general would prefer a law making an equal division, which would save them the trouble of making a will. Do you think that the inhai)itants of Upper and Lower Canada woulil not bo perfectly satisfied with having it in tiieir power to distribute their property as they please by will ? — They possess that p(jwer already, but they would prefer that w ilhout the trouble of making a will the law should distribute it as they wish. Does it suggest itself to you as e possible mode of remedying the inconvenienct'H arising out of the present division and distinction of the two provinces of Upper and Ix)wer Canada, that Monti. "al and the district immediately around it should be transferred to Upper Canadii, thereby giving I'pper Canada the benefit of a hv.. port, and tlie conseanada, altering the law of primogeniture, have you since obtained am- inforuiation upon that subject': — I have made inquiry upon the subject, and found that althouj^h u bill to that effect was int 'jduced into the House of Assembly morp ihan once it never became a law. Is tiiere any thing that you wish to state to the Committee in addition to your former evidence? — i am desirous of communicating toti*»* Committee all the infor- mation which I possess respecting :l»e religious statistics of thf provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, and with permission of the Committee I shall proceed to make the following additions to the statement given in my former testimony. In the western district of Upper Canada there are two Roman Jcttliolic chapels and one church, four Episcopal Churche- viz. one at Sandwich, one art Chatham, one at Amherstburgh, and another at (,'olchester ; the Fsrvice at these cnurches is regular, with the exception of Colchester, where it is occasional , the iiumb«r of attendants at Chatham is from 20 to 30, and at Amherstburgh and riiiatham 50 to 00. There arc five Episcopal (-'hurches in the district of Niagara. -'lie num- ber of attendants at the ci'urch iu the town of Niagara does not exceed 90, the average number at Queenston and Chip[)awa, and tlie other churches, is hut 15 ; the Episcopal Churches at Queension and St Catherine's were orig»«a^ly built by Presbyterians, who by .some unjustifiable means (it is said) were deprwed of thein. The Presbyterian congregation at St. Catherine's are about to build Hinitiier, The names of the clergymen of the Scottish Secession having congregations Mie di" trict ol Unthurst are Mr. Leil, at Perth, Mr. Buclianan, at Beckwith, and Mr. Gemrnil, at Lanark. A church ha.s been built at Lanark for a clergyman of the Church of Scotland. There are ^cjo Presbyterian communicants in Perth, Dalhousie and Beckwith. We have only received returns from four townships out of 17 in this district, viz. Drumniond, Ikckwitii and Dalhousie, which conain a Presbyterian population of 2,903, At Bytown a lot of land has been allotted for a Scottish Cl'irch and minister's house, and where a congregation of not lejs than 300 could be formed at present. There are two Episcopal Churches in the district, one at Perth, the other at Richmond ; the number of commu'.icants at the former (in the town of Perth) is about 20, and at the latter about 10 ; hut the mission of each, I believe, embraces several townships. Presbyterian Churches are required in every township. There is only one clergyman within the district of Gore in coi»- munion with tlic ( 'hurch of Scotland ; altogether there are eighi congregv-tions in the district. Answers have been received from some of tiie townships si owing a population of 2,200. The following statement has been cotnunmicated f'-om three other townships in the .same district. In the townships of Trafalgar, Nelson and Flamborough East, therj are 2,10 heads of fami'ies attached to the Church of Scotland; about 15 Episcopalian 75 of the Church of Rome, and the remainder of the population are Methodists and BaptistH ; in these townships the number of souls attached to the Presbyterian Churcli exceeds 1,300. There are stveral other townships in this district from which no returns have been obtained. In the town of Guelp.S there are upwards of 100 farnilies, and several more in the ad jjining township of Aramosa Pttac'.eil to liic Presbyterian Church. In Streetv'.ile the number of Presbyterians exceeds 300 heads of families, representing 1,263 souls. The church at Ancastcr, which Dr. Strachan describes in his chart as being episcopal, in which he states the service or the Church of England is regularly performed, is a free Protestant Church, and the only service regularly performed in it is by Mr. Sheed, a Scotch Presbyterian minister. The church in Barton was built conjointly by the Presbyterians »>\u\ I'piscopalians in the neighbourhood, and is open to the clergymen of either denomination. In Woolwich there never was a church, nor service of any denomination. There is not an E[)iscupal Church at Dundas, nor has service of the Church of England been performed there for the last four or five years. In the Indian village on the river Ouse there is an Episcopal Church, which in fact is ti)c only one of that denomination in the district. This exhibits a state of thincs diHticnt Iroin tlie Doctor's representation. Although the Pr sbytcrians in the Newcastle district exceed 2,oco, there is not a clergyuian of that church within it. The following has becu /uriiishcd as lOf). L 1 3 exhibiting X. ■ -■„ Mr. J. C. Oram.. iOJaat le inations, 20! There is not a Presbyterian Church or clergyman within any of those townships. The inhabitants are extremely desirous of having clergymen of the Church of Scotland. In the parish of St. Therese (a French Canadian settlement), there are 97 indi- viduals, principally heads of families, attaclied to the church of Scotland, a IVes- byterian church has been built by voluntary contributions, in which service is regularly performed by a minister of the Scottish Secession, who also officiates occasionally at St. Eustache and New Glasgow, at the request of the Presbyterians in those places ; there arc about 40 Presbyterians at St. Eustache. New Glasgow, a settlement which has been formed within the last six years, contains as many Presbyterians as St. Therese and St. I'ustachc together. There is another Presby- terian settlement at Paisley, adjoining New (ilasiiow. The persons within these settlements, professing to belong to the Ixlimcli of I'nglaiul, constitute about a twelfth part of the Protestant |;i)pnlation. No answers have been received from St. Andrews, hut our petition is signed by 147 heails of familie.i resident there, representing 819 souls of the Presbyterian faith. The following is the census o'" the township of Rawdon, (a settlement recently formed) 92 Presbyterian families, 72 Roman Catholic, and 20 E|)iscopalian. There is a minister of the Church of EngLcul estuhlished in this townshi|). The village and neighbourhood of La Chine contains about 239 Presbyterians and 70 Episco- paliar.s. From the village of Laprairie and the surroiinding coinitry the petition has received the t^ignalures of i()3 heads of families representing tioo souls. There is a Scotch settlement at St. Peter's, and another about if) miles from Laprairie, chiedy composed of Scottish Presbyterians. From the seigniory of Beauiiarnois the jRtition before the Committee has been signed by 18S individuals, prinei|)ally Scotch, representing a population of 791. In the settlements of North and South ^eorge i'own, and part of William's Town, there is a |)opulation of 3()(i Presby- terians ' ON THIi CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 271 tciians of tlio cliuKcli of Scotland, A Presbyterian church lias been erected at South Mr. George 'J'own, but it i.s not provided with a clergyman. In other parts of the same ^ •^- ^ - Grant. seif»nif)ry and the adjoiuiii;^ one of La Sulie, the Presbyterian population exceeds 500 pcr«onf, C)a heads of families, representing 4/7 souls, in the township of * one i a . Dundee; and 70 heads of families, representing 431 souls, resident at Isle-aux- Noix, have also nlffmi t!ie petition. There arc comi;;in«tively few Protestants in the district of Three Rivers. It is believed that the Pi esbyterians in the town of Three Rivers and at Nicholet are at least equal in number to the Episcopalians, notwithstanding that a minister of the Church of England lias olTiciatcd at the former place since the cession of the country. There is un Episcfpidiiui church at Riviere du Loup, in which service is regularly j)crfornied by a minister of the (church of En|Tland ; the total Protestant population within (he parish consists of three E,jiscopalian and twenty Presbyterian families. There is another I'rotestimt settlement on the borders of Lake Maskinong^, com- puted at ;jo families, the niiijority of whom are Presbyterians ; and it is supposed that that denoininution is aliiu the must numerous in the townships in this district. I'rom some iif the Protestant settlements in the district of Quebec the following information lias Ik)oii collected : — At Lake Beauport there are 92 persons, at St. Pa- trick 4;;, and III Vul( artier 100, who piofess to be Presbyterians in communion with tlie Church ol Scolldiici ; the seigniory of St. Giles contains 1 10 Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland ai;'.l 2;^ E()iscopalians ; in the township of Leeds there are 70 persons who rtonld prefer the ministrations of a clergyman of the Church of Scotland, kixI live families of the Church of England; the township of Inverness contains hetuecn ,'io and 'o Presbyterians and i,*; Episcopalians ; in the township of Frumpton there .ne 100 Presbyterians; at St. Charles Relle Alliance settlement, as well as ni the seigniory of Metis, there are few inhabitants who do not profess to bo Presl)yleriaiis. No answers have been received from the district of Gasp6 ; but I am warranted in stating, npcMi the authority of the Crown agent, that the great majority of the people are Presbylrrians. None of the townships or settlements I have named are provided with clergymen <;xcept .luiHC particularly mentioned. The Presbyterian inhabitants are all extremely tiesirous of having ministers and teachers of their own persuasion. The Presbyterian congregation in the city of Montreal, under the charge of I minister in connection with a presbytery in New York, consists of between f>oo and 700 persons, while the two others, under the ministration of clergymen of the Church of Scotland, are composed of between 800 and 1,000 persons each; the number of communicants in one of the latter is 33,5, in the other 170. Dr. Hark- ncs.s's congregation in the city of Quebec is constituted of about 1,200 or 1,500 persons ; the ninnher of conununicants about 300. There is also another congre- ;iition in the city of Quebec under the ministration of a clergj'man, a native of Enghuul, out who had resided as a clergyman in the United States of America. In these towns, where there have been Episcopalian clergymen since the conquest and cession of the country, and one of them the residence of the Lord Bishop for the last 3,'i years, tiie Presbyterians arc more numerous than the Episcopalians. This assertion is made, as well from peisonal knowledge, as far as respects Mon- treal, as upon certain data relating as well to Montreal as Quebec. The following is an account of the number of marriages, &c. performed by the clergymen of the English and Scotch churches, including the chaplains to the forces 1 1 Quebec and Montreal, taken from the registers of the different ministers, which are deposited niuiuiilly with the prothonotaries of the Courts of King's Bench, as required bylaw. The garrison at (Quebec generally consists of two regiments, besides artillery, engi- neers, eommissiiriat, and other departments; at Montreal of one regiment, less one or two companies, artillery, engineers, staff corps, commissariat and other depart- ineiils, uhl) are attended by ciiaplains to the forces, and tiie services performed by such chaplains are registered with those of the Episcopal clergy : — Marriages Itaplisnis J'linerals In Quebec for I Episcopalians : 1 years, i .34" 1,U()() 1 ,()2t) jp to 31 December i8ai, Presbyter-ans : Marriages - . . - Baptisms - - . . Funerals . . - - 555 698 .j''<>. L14 Mr. J. C. Grant. 37a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT C )MWnTEE In Montreal, /or 12 years, up 1031 December 1821, 46 Junt 1898. Episcopalians : Marriages . - - - 377 Baptisms - . - . 900 Funerals - - - - i,j6i Marriages Baptisms Funerals Presbyterians : The disproportion between funerals and baptisms, may be accounted for from the numbers of persons belonging to the military who died in the hospitals, of sickness and wounds, during the late war. At the town of Kingston, in the province of Upper Canada, where an Episcopal minister has resided since the peace of 1783, a Presbyterian minister began his ministry in a church built by subsiriplion about tivc years ago, and his congrega- tion is at present more numerous than that of the Church of England. The foregoing particulars are not offered us exhibiting a complete statement of the relative numbers of the whole Protestant population professing different forms of religion, and much less as containing u census of the total number of Presbyte- rians in the Canadas. These particulars have been extracted from information received only from some parts of those provinces, while there are whole district? and numerous extensive settlements in both, particularly Upper Canada, Irom w hicu statements have not been furnished. It is also necessary to bear in mind that five- sixths of the population of Lower Canada are French Canidian Roman Catholics. I have been enabled to furnish a statement of the Presbyterian population only in the towns, some of tiie French Canadian settlements, and in fcv of tiie townships near the St. Lawrence, where settlements have recently commenced, without com- prising that in the townships of Lower Canada beyonil the French Canadian settle- ments in the seinneuries on the south side of the St. Lawrence, many of which have been long settled, and contain a Protestant population estimated at 30,000 souls; and, considering that those townships and other Protestant settlements in Lower Canada, as well as the other inhabited parts 0} the Upper Province, (from which no returns have as yet been received,) have been peopled by persons who have emigrated from Scotland, Ireland, and the United States of America, it may be inferred that there also Presbyterians bear the same relative proportion to Episcopalians. The great sources of emigration to Canada are Scotland and Ireland, and there can be little or no doubt that among the new settlers the nun)bers of the Church of England will continue to bear but a small proportion to the numbers of the Church of Scot- land. That moie ample information has not yet been received must be ascribed to the causes I ha"e already mentioned, and the short interval of time employed in collecting it. The Cliurch of F.Dgland has at all times possessed the means of extending herself by increasing the number of iier clergy, who are supported as missionaries by a salary of 200/. sterling, paid to each minister by the Socie'y for Propagating the Gospel in Foreign Parts, in aid of which annual grants have been made by the Parliament of (ireat Britain. On the other hand, jhe Church of Scotland has been left to contend, unsu()ported, against every ditlieully ; and although a few congregations in the large towns and in some of the old and exten- sive settlements have, by means of voluntary contributions, procured for thenjselves the services of clergymen of tlicir own pcisuasion, in gcixiral the inliaiiitants are too poor to support clergymen, having to striii.'gle hard for their own maintenance. They cannot have a regul;ir minister of their ov\ n, as no Presbytery will ordain one unless some permanent provision is made for him. Under such circumstances, it may have happened that some individuals educated in the (.'hureh of .Scotland have joined the Church of England in those tomisliips and .settlements whce establish- ments have been formed by that chureli, but their numbers are very incon>iderable; and even where such establishments have been formcil the Prest)yterians, accus- tomed and attached to a different mode of religious worship and instruction, unite themselves in preference to other denominations whose doctrines and forms of worship are more congenial to tlieir minds. I cannot take upon myself to vouch for the acciu'acy of the foregoing statements, but considering the sources from which the infc^rmation lii-.° been derived, I believe it to he (as far as it extends) as correct as could •■'• obtained ^vithout enumeration ^mder public uuttiority. I (eel it niy duty to bring under the consideration of tlic Committee some of the disabilities ON THE CIVIL GOVEHNMKNT 01' CANADA. 273 •tlisabilitics im()08ed u|icn the Cliurcli of Scotlaii'l in (Jppor Cniiado, wliicli arc con- sidered by the clergy and iiicmbers of timt church n» huliiilintiiiK and degrading. Ry a provincial statute, passed in the 38th year ot tho reign of \m late Mujcsty. •clergymen of theChurcii of Scotland, though rogulurly ordained by a I'resbytery m Scotland and called to a congregation iu Upper ChmikIu, are bound, before they can solemnize marriage, to apply to the court of QimrtiT Hoflsians for a license, and to submit to forms extremely grating to their feelingH, ConHtitutcd as the Legisla- ture of Upper Canada is at present it is not oxpocted tImt u repeal of tliat Act can be obtained, and it is only to the Imperial Purtiauioht tliiit tlio petitioners can look for redress. None of the Presbyterian churches in Lotver Ciinuda are incorporated, nor are there any in Upper Canada, to the bast of my bii'wf, altliougli applications have been frequently made to the Provincial Cjovorum^hl for tiiut purpose. The clergy of the Church of Scotland havfi in lioth provinces liccn excluded from «ny share in the instruction of youtli. Witliin every iliotrict of Upper Canada there is a grammai-'school, to each of the teaclters ul whicli u •lalury of 100/. is paid out of the funds of the province. The further hui!i of 'J,,;oo/. is appropriated for tlie «ncou" gcment of common schools. In Lower Canada all the scliools cstubliHlieil liy tilt' nulliority of Ciovcrnuient are under tlie direction of a corporation, styled " 'I'lio llijynl Institution for the Advance- ment of Learning," composed of tlie Prott-htiint liiNliop, clergy, ami members of the Episcopalian church, one or two I'rcsbyteriHU, nud tlir<'c llomnn Catholic members. The Roman Catholic clergy having no shnre in tlio nomination of the ma.sters to, or any right of superintendence over tliesc hcIkmiIh, luive withheld their countenance and support from them ; and tlie progress of (jducution under tliis system has hitherto been siow. In the year 1827 it was in the coiilt'mpliitionof (Jovernnient, with the co-operation of the bishop and clergy of tlie Uuuitui Cutliolii; cliurcli, tu funii a sepa- rate committee of thi: institution, tor the cxcliiitivo regulation and supi.rintcndence of Roman Catholic schools ; but this pKijecl ImH nut yet been currii-d into full o|)era- tion. Siicli an arrar.gement would liavi tlie clli'ct of t»rcvcntin|» the Churcii of Scotland from havinj; any share in tlio direi'tionof the educolioii of youth, even of those of their own persuasion, although u bill putting tliitt church on an equal footing with the Churches of Rome and England in ruNpuct to Mhication has been repeatedly passed by the representative body of the provinco since 1817. From the facts which I have stated, it il obvious that tlio number of clergymen does not aft'ord a standard by which an ostiiiiati! can bo made of the proportion which tlie members af each religious dt^iioiniiiiilioii beiir to the general (lopulation of tlic Canadas. Witliout presuming to otlir iiiiy opinion upon the construction of the Act of Parliament by which those reserve* have liccii set apart for the sup- port of a Protestant clergy, I beg leave to staU) that the petitioners rest theii claim of right, to a full and unrestrained exercise and cnioymcnt of their religion in tho.sc colonics, ujK)n the 5 Anne, c. 8, Tlie Cnnntlas were acquired by Great Dritain after the kingdoms of England and Scotland became united ; and the members of the (Church of Scotliiiid conceive that their cliurcli has an equal right with that of England to enjey any advantage or support which may be derived from the territory so aci|uir(d. Nor can tliey Kupposo for a moment that at the time of the passing of the Act, by wliicli iIiokh reserves have been made, when the greater part of Up|)er Canada, and a large proportion of Ixiwcr Canada, was still un- grantcd, and a wilderness, the King diiil both lloiiMis of Parliament intended to appropriate one-seventh of all the lunds tttill to be grunted for the support of the clergy of the Churcli of Kngland, before it was known whether the country would be settled by members of that church or by I'l'flsbytcriaiis. Many giants of those lands have been miule to Presbyterians, the vmy iiicil and their descendants who earned laurels on the plains of Abrahnni, and in other honourable feats both by sea and land, as rewards for faithful services, I'l'onliylci'iiiiiA have also been encouraged by Hib Majesty's (Jovernnient at dilVereiit timtjh to eniignitc from Scotland and otiier parts to settle in the ('aiiados, and ttmm' |t(;=i(mH ctinitot iiiiaijine, that it was intended to give the reserves in towiifihipn si'tllod by lliciil to the clergy of their fellow subjects south of the Tweed, and to loiive the clcigy of their rliurch iiltogetlicr destitute ; on the contrary, they have iilwiiyi coitccivfd that under thu general words " a Protestant tlcr^i^," us<'d in tliiil Art, piovi'iinn hus been made as well for the clergy of llie Cliuich of Scollinid iii lor (Inil ol |-,iiglaii(l. But as the Act in question has bi eii inleipietid by «()iiu' pcrsonn in a narrow and .^fii). M m untavoiu;il)lo Mr. J. C. Grant. flGJune 1828. 374 MINUTES OF EVIPENCI' BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. J. C, (Irnnl, ■iti Jun« iHjH, iiiiJavotirnlile manner, and the provisions made thereby have been claimed and tMijoycd exclusively by the clergy of the Church of England, }Iis Majesty's Pres- byterinn subjects in the Canadas hope, that through the interposition of Parliament nil (luubts respecting the appropriations intended by that Act may be removed, iiiid timt their church may be endowed with an equitable proportion of those l'(wervc8, or the proceeds wiiich may arise therefrom, should it be deemed expedient to dispose of tlieni ; and as the provision contemplated by those reserves is still only prospective, the petitioners pray that some further provision be made in aid (limof (or otherwise), until the revenue arising from such lands shall be sufticicnt for Ow maintenance of a number of clergymen of their church, proportionate to the extent of the I'resbyterian population. They disclaim any desire to encroach upon niiy rights which may have been secured to Uie Church of Plngland, and they would regret to sec her clergy deprived of any support that might add to their useftilness or respectability. They only claim that measure o*^ support and protection to whicii their propor- tioiiuto number and importance in the general population of those provinces may entitle them. Considerations of ecpiity, and the soundest policy, demand tiie rcpeal of the provincial statute of Upper Canada, 3S Geo. 3, c. 4, and a recognition of the (/'liurcii of Scotland, as well in that province as in Lower Canada, and tliat a suitable provision be made from the clergy reserves, or some other fund, for the maintenance of tlio clergy of that church. And as the attachment of the Presbyterians in those provinces to their own church has been been called in question, and their nutnbcrs represented as inconsiderable, they arc perfectly willing that tiie conditions on •.\iiicii Hity provision or aid, to be afforded to tiiem for the support of their elegy, shall prevlousiy require a certain amount of voluntary contributions from tiie members of every congregation claiming such assistance, as well as that such a number of lieadb of families as may appear to His Majesty's Government sufKcie.it to consti- tute a congregation. I take the liberty of handing to the Committee a copy of the resolutions adopted by t!ie Presbytery of the Scottish secession of Upper Canada, in the month of January last. " AT a Meeting of the United Presbytery of Upper Canada, held at Hrockville, on Wednesday the 23d day of .lanuary 1828, the following Preamble ami Resolutions were considered and adopted : " Whkhf.as, at a meeting of the General Committee of Presbyterians in Montreal, lield on the loth December 1827, the following Resolutions were passed : (F/V/f RcMolufions of Montreal ("ommittee of mth Ueeember.) These Ilesolutioiis of the Montreal Pred)yteriun Committee bemg communicated to this Presbytery, and maturely considered, it is tiiereupon resolved, " 1 St. As the opinion of the Presbytery, that 'he Presbyterians in this province arc agreed on all essential po nts of doctrine, wor-sliip and discipline, having for their coinuioii standard the Westminster Asseuibiys Confession of Faith. " ad. That the causes of difference wliicli have divided Presbyterians in Scotland l»cing locally inapplicable to this country, may here be ol)viated in sucii a manner as to render a general union of Presbyterians in this province practicable without any sacrifue of principle. " 3d. That such a general union n\ the Presbyterians in this province is in the opinion of this Presbyt* ,w liighly di^irable, an it will tend to strengthen tiie Pres- byterian interest, and sub.serve the cause of true relinion and |)iomote the jieace and pMw|»erity of the province. " 4lh riiat the Presbytery receiM with >iiti<*f*ictioii the proposition of the Pres- liyt«'rian« of .Montreal in communiim with the t iiurch of .Scotland, and are di.sposed find reatly to unite with Uiem u|)on fair and practicable terms. (signeil) " ("(>. liwlidiiati. Mod'. " /f "' lidl, Clk." Bril bell reel I'*', In be col wiF ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Sahbati, 28° die Junii, 1828. 375 Juhn Neilion, Rill, John Neilson, Esq. again called in; and Examined. ARE tliere any points upon which you wish to give any explunation in addition to the statements you made when you were last bcfoie the Committee? — I wish to ^ive explanations upon certain points noticed in a memorandum I have given in. The hrnt point noticed in that memorandum is, that some copies of bilia given in '^^ June i8si8, by you are not in the state in whicli they were actually sent up to the Council ; will you state whether the bills as they are now before tlie Committee dift'cr in any im- portant particulars from those which were sent up ? — I apprehend not in any im- portant particulars ; but I got the copies from one of the clerks of the House of As- sembly, and he was not able to get copies of them all from the Council, just as they hud gone up ; he either gave the printed copies that were in his possession, or copies tliat iiad been used for engrossing the bills from. It is possible that, in one or two instances, an unimportant alteration may have occurred between the time thoy were printed and the time when they were passed in the House and sent up to the Council ; I am, however, not aware of any. Did any doubts exist heretofore as to the laws of England with respect to real property being in force in Canada between 1764 and 1774? — Yes; since I was here I iiave consulted some papers, and I find that in u Report laid before the House of Assembly by the Land Committee in 1 824, there are the opinions of the law ofliccrs of the Crown in England and in the colony, which say tiiat there were doubts on the subject, whether the English law, with regard to property, was in force or was introduced into the colony by the King's proclamation in 1703. Have many instances come to your knowledge in which what you iiuve considered as the laws of Car>ada with respect to real property have been applied in tiie pro- vince to lands held in. free and connnon soccage? — I cannot sliiie the instances having come to my knowledge, but I never conceived tiiat any oilier law was up|)lied nt all. Have you known any instances of persons holding lands in free and common soceage dying intestate, and their property being eciualjy divided uniongst tiieir children, or have you known the contrary that in such u case the right of primo- geniture has been acted upon ? — The right of primogeniture was never lliougiit of as being in existence in tlie colony. I purchuhcd some land granted on free and connnon soceage, 1 purchased it according to the laws of Canada, and from pas his six- teenth cousin, or somebody from the stnne parish or neighbourhood, and from whom he has heard by letter, and he goes and sits down beside them if |X)ssiblc; l)ut in Lower Canada there arc none such ; and there can be none such, because the lands arc cut up in such a way that you cannot get a contiguous tract in any direction. The length of the winter and its severity are also subjects of great dread to the new comers, and real disadvantage to all. Did not your English connection aid y^ur settlement ?— No, the w)mlc of the concern was rather a Canadian concern than a llritisli concern, for the whole of the gentlemen thai wire engaged in it were of what they cull the Caniid'.-ii party. Do the Frtiuli Canadian> experience iuiy oli^tnclcs in their iitter.ipts to get po'-session of now imids y— Wry great in(if((l. The law» which provide for and reculate concessions or grants liy the .-cigtieurs to the acliud settlers, have, sin*'C the con{|ucst, lieen siiflered t() be nu!iitions being adhered to according to the old laws, the laws have been sufl'cred to be extinct, and the people cannot get land at any reasonable rate. Yon mean that the landlords insist upon too much? — They insist upon what they have no rigiit to, so much that the people cannot pay it ; the people could pay it iluring the war, when wheat was selling at a high price, but now they cannot pay it. 'I'lieii the landlord is ultimately the loser? — He is not a landlord in the usual sense in this country, but a person to whom lands have been granted on condition tliut settlers should be put upon them as proprietors, on their paying certain customary dues. He is certainly ultimately the loser, because instead of joining with the people in settling the lands and making them ultimately valuable, in con- sequence ot viouturea and lots et ventes, he by his extravagant demands prevents the settlement of the lands. Tiiis is the cft'ict of that blind greediness, whicii, in a thousand instances, leads to a violation of law and justice, and sets a man in his own light. You have said that the lands were so nit up that the settlement of the country is prevented ; in what way are they cut up ? — I explained that in my former evidence. in the townships they are intersected with clergy and crown reserves, and with lots, the titles of which arc in persons that cannot be found ; they are perhaps living in England, Scotland, or some other country ; and now it is impossible to tell who is the proprietor of a lot of land in the townships of Lower Canada. Do you conceive tiiat a tax upon waste land, such as is raised in the United States and in Upper Canada, would 'end to remedy that grievance ? — I have no doubt that it would tend to remedy that grievance, l)ut it is a power which is very liable to be unused ; for I conceive that it is almost a spoliation to say that you will put it in the power of residents to tax the lands of non-residents. The question had reference to the idea of a general law, which shall impose a general land-tax upon all lands lying waste, without reference to whether they are the lands of residents or of non-residents ? — That would be safer, because then the residents would have their lands taxed too. Do you conceive that a law of that nature would remove, in a great degree, the grievance of those lands which are lying waste if a tax were imposed ; and in default of payment of that tax, the land was forfeited ? — I conceive that would be one way of iomcdvin<{ it ; it would have exactly the effect which the rents of the seigneural grants have at present. The seigneural grant is conditioned, with the payment, of a small annual rent, which every one is bound to pay. It is not considered that it cannot lawfully exceed a penny a superficial acre, and every one who may like to settle lias a ilglit to an unoccupied grant on demand. This rent, however, compels a man to relinquish his land or to settle it; because if it is c-tanding wild begets sptj. M m 3 nothing John titihoH, 38 June i8a8. 378 MINUTES OF EVIDKNin-, HEIOIIK nKLKCT ( OMMITTER John NnUon, nothing from it, imd he has every year thin r«iiit Ut (Hty, hmidt!* the visiiA of the road _ ^' officers under tlie cxislinR laws, which put* him in miml that h»; in n proprietor of M June iSaS '""^'- ^^^ R<=** ""8'"^ *''''' "''*''')'* P"y'"K "'"' ""''"' fi^'^'MHn; and at last he suyn, " I wish to be rid of it, and he gives it iiwuy toimy hiHly that will gfttlc ; that fre- quently occurs in the seigneuries. Tlie seigneuri*** in faet tlo not want any tax of that kind, because they have got it already in tlio iiliitpii of nikvarwet. If tin; grants of the crown lands had been accompanied with nik'Ii an annual payment, to be looked after by an interested individual, you would liavn found that there would be very little monopoly of wild land, tlui moiit iwrnU^ioMN of all mono|iolies, as it costs notliing to |)ersevere in it. Would not the remedy that has been f)iigg(t!t(i an iuipoilaul imrt of the administration, enabling the people to settle and spread over the eouMlry , the only thing that 1ms made the countries in .\in<:ricu valuable. It has been suggested to the Committee that niitny of the dilfictdties which exist between the two provinces as to coiumerciitl iind tinaneial matters, might be adjusted by annexing Montreal us a port to tint Ifpper Province, what in your opinion would be the effect of such an altoralioh r -The •licet of such an altera- tion, in fact, would be to annihilate Lower (^aniida m a fle|iariitc govermnent. Il the town and island of Montreal art to belong (o t'pper Canada, and they arc to impose duties u|)on goods that are imported there, wn all iv'uds coming into that part of the country will go to tiii; principal eily at the head of the navigation, the people will go to that common centre to buy the good? they want, and pay the duties upon those goods, and tliose duties would go to the (iovernmeiit of Upper Canada, and the Ciovernment of Lower {>anttdM, inrtead of Imviiig a revenue such as it has now, would in fact have a revi'iiue of only one tiiird, the popuLition of Lower Canada resorting to Montreal, being two lliird» cf the whole popululion ; the Government ot Lower Canada would he a uxeleis piece of machinery alto- gether, and could not be supported. Mow do you consider that .Montieiil is tlie euMlie of two thirds of the popula- tion ot Lower Canada, since it lies nearly tipou the exireine boundury between Lowei and irppei Canada ? -It is the eenlrii ol (he popiilatirai of the district of Montreal, aiitl the population of the dinlrai nl Montieiil i^ about tun thirds of the yoi no le; I III ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ^*^ tliu wliole province ; it is to llmt centre, which is the head of the tthip navigation, thut uli the pfO|>lo Hviti^ in the district of Montreal naturally ^o, and niUMt ^o to buy ail the goods that they consunio ; whoever consumes the ffHuia pays the duties, and tiiosc duties would go away to the Upper Province. Whut ell'ect in your opinion would he produced, by the annexation of Mon- treal to Upper Canada, upon the means which would exist on the part of this country of defending the I'roviiices in case of an attack by the United States? — Of coinse, if the United Stutes ever put fortii their means fur the con(]ucst of (Janudu, England cannot meet them upon equal terms, or ut least upon terms which this nation would be willing to 'ihinit to, that is, without undergoing un expense beyond all calculation, unless it be where tiie naval power of Great Urituui can easily |)enctrate without danger from the land: there the power of England in reality does extend, in spite of the United States of America, and in spite of every transatlantic power. No part of the St. Lawrence below the llichelieii Ur^pids, 4.5 miles above Quebec, can possibly be out of the reach of lii'i power; livit it is understoo < v^^^ %^ *^ 1.0 I.I 1.25 IIIII.4 US,E2A |2.5 ■^ 1^ 12.2 li 1.6 <^ ■'^^/^\'>i' >> W? V ^ ^. /(^ r Photographic Sciences Corporation 4^ s \ ;\ \ ^^^ ^ 23 WEST MAIN STRUT WEBSTH.N.Y. 14510 (716) S72-4S03 '^ 6"^ !^ fifi- ■ ■; ■.'f.f'!..- '.■■ ■••."'.■ •..• they generally thought that it was something started in the colony, and it has not, in consequence of that, got to so great a height us it would otherwise have got ; for amongst the body of the people at this present moment, no man a.sks whether his neighbour is a Catholic or a Protestant ; there are Catholics and Pratestants in the same family and neighbourhood, and all living in perfect harmony. In truth, . no country was ever more exempt from religious animosities than Lower Canada has generally been during the 37 years I have resided there. Arc there any attempts to proselyte on the part of the Catholic Church ?-^No ; I think they are the least proselyting people that ever I have seen. I have been frequently at the houses of tiie clergy, and they never talk to you about religion ; generally the Canadian Roman Catholics shun every conversation about religion. Are the Catholic clergy much respected by their flocks generally ? — ^They are re- spected, I believe, by every body in the country ; I have never heard any body speak ill of them generally. Do they mix themselves up in the general politics of the province, or ia matters disconnected with their own religion ? — No, they never have interfered with politics to any extent ; they generally have kept away even from appearing or voting at an election ; they do not think that it is consistent with their interest and religious duties to have any thing to do with politics. Did not they materially assist the Government in the defence of the province during the war? — That is with them a religious duty. In the war in 1775 they 569. Nn took Jeht Hfiilton, Etq. a8 June i8>8. aSa MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ttJuMilsB. took a very active part in encouraging the people to defend the country ; and in the war of 181 a they also took an active parti but the whole body of the people took an active part at that time; they were opposed to the Americans, and they were strongly attached to a connection with this Government. Generally, is not the idea of the people of the Lower Province that any measures that have come from this country, of which they may have thought they had reason to complain, have proceeded very much from the imperfect information which the framers of those measures have had of the situation of the Canadas? — Yes-; there is nobody in that country that ever conceived that this country can have any intereat in doing an injui^ to any living soul in the colonies. Has not that reeling tended very much to soften any feelings of irritation which such measures may have produced ? — Surely it has. I should conceive that after the imprisonments and dissolutions in 1810, had it not been for the confidence the people then reposed in the justice of this country, we should have in 1 8 1 3 had a deal of difficulty in getting them to come forward with the spirit they showed in defence of the country ; but they said that " the King would do us justice ;" (" Le Itoi nous fera justice,"') How are the Catholic clergy paid ? — By the people. Are tithes levied ?— I believe there has been hardly an instance of a compulsorv levy of tithes : no man is bound to pay tithes unless he belongs to the church ; if he declares off from the church he is exempt from paying tithes. Is not the amount that is payable fixed by an ( 'dinance of the Kin^ at a twenty- sixth part of the grain raised ? — One twenty-sixth part of all grain is to be delivered into the priest's house ; that is the tithe fixed by the ordinance of the French King, and they claim nothing else, and that only from those tiiat belong to their church. What do you suppose to be the average amount of the receipts of each of th« Catholic clergymen, according to tliat system ? — I should suppose the average will not exceed from 100/. to 150/. a year, taking the whole tugether. I know that the clergyman in the parish in which I live has not n)ore than about 50 /. or 60 /. a year, but that is a very poor parish upon a high spot of ground ; there are some that I dare say have got 300 /. or 400 /. a year even at present, although the timet are bad. Is that exclusive of any Easter offerings, or fees paid upon marriages t.ne said to be provided for at alt. The Roman Catholic clergymen coma tfaere occasionally, and the Irish Catholics hdve only six or eight miles to go to the pariah church of Saint Ambroise. The Scotch seldom see any body, excepting some travelling Methodists, and sometimes a minister of the Church of Englumi, who occasionally comes out from Quebec ; the Scotch minister has also been out. There are there, I should suppose, 3u or 30 Scotch families, and they do attend to such preaching and praying as they can get ; .but they are all steadfastly attached to ttieir own church. Is there any regular Protestant service in the settlement? — No. I gave to the bishop ot the Church of England a lot of land upon which to build a school -house, and in that school-house the Church of Englnnd minister comes out occasionally and reads the service, and preaches ; and others come out and get into any houac that they can, and they give notice to the people to come and attend prayera^ psalm-singing and preaching. Is the result that on Sundays there is generally Protestant worship of some kind ? — No; but whenever there happens to be service, when I am tiMre 1 attend, and l bore always iaandi that there will be about 100 peivona attsoding service : in taot Ibero I aa «f» ,<.r. ■-^' HA ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 383 there is not any new settlement where the people are not desirous to have religious inalruction, generally according to the form in which they have been educated. Do you find that in that new settlement there is a great eagerness for education ? — In the school-house that was erected upon the lot of ground that I gave to the bishop there was a schoolmaster placed, and he had a small salary that was paid out of the provincial funds ; he began shortly after to require the children to learn the catechism of the Church of England ; before that the children had all attended the school ; the moment that happened they nearly all withdrew, and he remained with two or three scholars. The people then joined together, those belonging both to the Protestant and to the Catholic Church, and employed an old soldier to be their schoolmaster ; this old soldier was a native of England, and a member of the Church of England ; the person that actually served as clerk when the Church of England minister came out to officiate. They took this man and paid him for teaching their children. The Catholics, Scotch and Dissenters sent their children to him without the least hesitation ; but they would not let their children go back to the school in which they had attempted to teach them the catechism of the Church of England. Do they read the Bible in that school r — In all the schools in America they usually read the Bible or Testament. Both in the Protestant and the Catholic schools ? — No, the Catholics will not allow any Bible but the Bible that is sanctioned by their own church. Is the Bible that is allowed cy the Catholic Church generally read in the Catholic schools ? — No ; there is what thoy call the Epitres and EvansUes, and a History of the Bible, consisting of extracts from the Gospel and Epistles and some other books, which contain large portions of the Scriptures which are read in the Roman Catholic schools ; but t!enerallv qpeaking they do not go through with the reading of the Bible the same us tliey do in the schools in Scotland. A translation into French of the New Testament is fiequently found in families ; but I believe not used in schools. Has any attempt ever been made by the Assembly of Lower Canada to provide more liberally for the Catholic Church?— No. Which is considered the better provided for of the two, the Catholic Church or the English Church? — The £nwer Canada Upper Canada 72 '3 Seceders from Church of Scotland, or other Presbyterians : In l>otli provinces - . . . . 12 I I Rtt. Harry Leilh, Wesley ans, or other Methodists: In Lower Canada Upper Canada In Upper Canada 11 39 Baptists : 50 ■ J.' - 4« The Besides In'.iepcndeotH, Conuregationalists, Moravians, Quakers, Jews, &c. cleroymen of the Church of England alone are provided for from public funds. Wtiut is your opinion witii respect to the conduct of tlic Church of England clergy ; are tliey zealous and successful in the discharge of their duties, or the con- trary ? — I conceive them to be a very resp' stable body of men. Are thty adding to the number of tlie established church ?— If things go on as they do at present they will diminisli very much the number of the established church, for any thing like irritation wili take away from an establishment. Protestants formerly had no animosity against any church in Canada ; they aided one another, and went to that church which happened to be the most convenient. The exclusive claims now openly announced by the Englisi; church in Canada will set all others against it. The Rev. Harrj/ Leilh, called in; and Examined. YOU are now the minister of Rotliemay, in Scotland ?— I am. What acquaintance have you with the province of Upper Canada? — I was resident in that country for nearly four years and a half, from September 1 822 till about ^e end of January 1837. Are you connected with the Church of Scotland ? — I am. In v^hat capacity were you in Canada ? — I othciated as a clergyman, and likewise had charge of the eastern district public school. Are you acquainted with the wish that has been expressed by the members of tho Church of Scotland, to obtain a portion of the proceeds of the clergy resei-ves ? — I am. What have you to state to the Committee upon that subject? — That they con- sider they have an equal claim with the Church of England to a share of those reserve)*, on two grounds : ist. As members of one of the Established Churches of (ir<'at Britain ; and also us the members of the Scotch Church in Canada are by far more numerous than those of the Church of England. They consider that, on both these groundv, tliey have a claim to a participutiun in those reserves, which were set apart for the support of " a Protestant clergy." Is it their opinion that their right arises out of the Act of 1 791 ? — It is their opinion tliut it was the intention of the framers of that Act, that the Scotch as well as English Cliurch should be comprehended in its provision. Can vou give the Committee any infui mation as to the number of the members of the scotcn Churcli in Canada, and the proportion they bear to the numbers of the Church of England ?— In the district in which I resided during those four years there are four congregations in connection with the Church of Scotland, and two in connection with the Church of England. In one of the churches in connection witli tiic Church of Scotland, namely, that at Wiliiamstow n, the average number of 9 communicanta IT ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. s85 f comtnunicants is from 450 to 500 ; at Martintomn the number was about 350, and w, „ at Locbiel I think about the same nuuiber ; at Cornwall the church was only , •*''*^ ^^^ erected a few 'tonths before I lefi^ that, so that the sacrament had never been dis- ' pensed there ; 1 "it I am fully convinced that it is at least equal to the Episcopal con- ""* '***• irregation, both in numbers and respectability. The number of communicants in the Episcopal Church Cornwall averages, I think, about 40 ; and the number of hearers, from 30 to 40. The only other Episcopal congregation in the eastern district is at Matilda. I have never understood it to be more numerous than that at Cornwall. There is no Episcopal Church at Osnabruck, as stated in Dr. Strachan's Ecclesiastical Chart There was a Presbyterian clergyman from Ireland, who resided there, preached once a fortnight, and performed all the duties of a minister. I have, however, understood that the Episcopal clergyman at Matilda used to officiate in the same cliurch occasionally; it may be once a fortnight, or once a month, I cannot state the interval exactly. In the Ottawa district, which has been but recently settled, a Mr. M'Laurin has been officiating for three or four years as a minister of the Church of Scotland to two or three congregations ; I cannot ■state their numbers, but think they must be considerable, as I have understood from Mr. M'Laurin that a Mr. Hamilton was almost the only Episcopalian in that quarter. At Kingston, in tlie midland district, there is a higiily respectable Scotch congregation ; it has only been organized for about six years, and the number of com- municants already amounts to 119. In the districts of Niagara and Gore, where, according to Dr. S.'s chart there are no Presbyterians at all, F am able to state that there are at least 1 6 Presbyterian congregations ; tliat the number of communicants in all the Episcopal Churches of these two districts does, not exceed 140 : this has been ascertamed from authentic sources. In one case, viz. Fort Erie Church, the communicants are eight in number ; in another ten, and the average number in all the Episcopal Churches of the four districts, Niagara, Gore, London and Western Dis- trict, amounts to no more than 25. The state of the English Church in the Gore district is so grossly misrepresented in Dr. S.'s chart, that I cannot refrain from pointing out a few of its inaccuracies. It is staled, in said chart, that there is an Epis- copal Church at Ancaster, and Divine Worship regularly performed in it. There is, I believe, but one church at Ancaster, and in it there is Divine Service regularly performed by a Mr. Sheed, who was ordained to that charge in April 1827 by the Presbytery of Aberdeen. At Burton, where Dr. S. states there is an Episcopal Church and Divine Service regularly performed, there is only what is called a/ree church, t. e. a church erected by the united subscriptions of Episcopalians and Pres- byterians, &c., and in which ministers of both these denominations have an equal right tc officiate. At Dundas there is a Catholic Church building, but there is no Episcopal Church; neither has the worship of that church been performed there for four or five years. At Woolwich there is no church, neither has religious worship been ever performed there. At the Indian village there is a church which was built by Government for the Indians, and which is in fact the only place in the ■district where there may be said to be an Episcopal Church. Do you believe that many persons originally connected with the Scotch Church conformed to the worship of the Church of England, where a church is established ■in that communion ? — Where no Scotch Church has been established, those who were members of that church have been in the habit of attending the worship of the Church of England, and some may have thus from necessity become membei's of the Church of England ; but that a much greater proportion of them prefer remaining unconnected with that church, is obvious from tlie numerous bodies of Dissenters that are invariably found in tlip-^e districts in which there are no Scotch clergymen, or where they have been but recently settled. Are not the members of the Chinch of Scotland in the habit of attending the worship of the Church of England, though without becoming communicants? — Many do, in places where there is no clergyman of their own church. Have you ever known an instance in which a Presbyterian Church was opened in Upper Canada, and the members of the Churcii of Englend attended worship in it, although they did not cease to be attached to the Church of England ? — Episco- palians do occasionally attend Divine Service in the Scotch Church. In Kingston^ where, if I mistake not, there was only one sermon delivered in the English Church, and there were two delivered in the Scotch Church, several members of the English Church attended the afternoon service in the Scotch Church. It is also, I think, very probable that in such churches as tliose at Burton in the Gore jbg. N n 3 district, mk\ t a»6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jbic. Many Leitk. district, and Osnabruck in the eutern district, which are free cbur':he^ many of ..I -m^— ■•* both dfinominatioiu will attend the services of tlie different prear.ners that may «« Joae i8a8. oflfciate. Have those unsettled aiid contending claims of different religious sects tended to produce feelings of animosity, political and religious, in the province of Upper Canada? — ^Tbey have; and there is every reason to expect that the same feelings will continue tu distract the province till such time as the Scotch Church obtains that recognition and support from Govemmeut to which it considers itself equally entitled with the Church of England. There are also other circumstances which tend very much to keep alive, if not to increase, these feelings. Scotch clergymen in Upper Canada are subjected, by provincial enactments, to disabilities in tlie discharge of their ministerial functions. A clergyman, after having been regularly ordained and appointed by a Presbytery in Scotland to a particular charge in Upper Canada, finds on his arrival there, that before he can legally solemnize marriage he has to intimate, at a meeting of quarter sessions, his mtention of applying to next meeting of quarter sessions for a license to solemnize marriage as the clergy- tawa of — — — i and even after he has waited these three months, and obtained this license, or rather certiticate, he will still find that he can only solemnize mar- riage wlien either of the parties has been six months a member of his congregation. So that should any of his brotiier clergymen become sick, go to assist some other clergyman in dispensing the sacrament, or be otherwise prevented from solemnizing tlie marriage, he cannot ofiiciate in his brother clergyman's stead ; and the parties wishing to contract marriage ' must either wait till their own clergyman recovers from his sickness, or if absent, returns home, which from the great distance they have sometimes to go, may not be for several days, or else they must submit to be married by an Episcopal clergyman, who happily labours unC '.r no restriction or limitation whatever, but can legally marry any parties upon their producing » license, whatever their church or length of residence may have been. This di^ ability may at first sight seem unimportant, but is indeed far otherwise, as will appear when the situation of the country is considered, that there are in every part of it new settlers almost daily arriving, and frequently applying for marriage before a residence of six months ; and that there are many extensive settlements of Presbyterians who, unable to support a clergyman of their own church, and from their great distance from a place where there is a Scotch clergyman, unable to connect themselves with any congregation in connection with the Church of Scot- land ; and that these latter have not only to depend for their religious instruction on the public ministrations of itinerant preachers, principally American, and of all denominations, but after they iiave travelled 40 or 50 miles to have their marriage solemnized by a clergyman of their own church, are informed by him that he is disqualified by a provincial statute from tlie solemnization of their marriage, and that they must apply to an Episcopal clergyman for its solemnization. These dis- abilities do not exist in Lower Canada, nor any other British colony. A repeal of these statutes by the Provincial Legislature amounts almost to an impossibility. The House of Assembly would pass no Act for their repeal which did not include all sects and denominations ; and the Upper House would with difficulty be brought to pass an Act in which the Church of Scotland was alone included. Relief can be had from an Act of tlie Imperial Parliament alone, placing the Scotch Church in the North American provinces on an equal footing with the Church of England, and conveying to its ministers full power to exercise all the functions of their sacred office, as ministers in connection with one of the Established Cliurches of Great Britain. And as the Scotch clergyiucn in Canada have net received power to form themselvf's into a Presbytery, so as to be enabled officially to examine the credentials of those professing themselves clergymen of the Church of Scotland, should it be deemed prudent, in order to prevent inipo. ition, that their credentials should be subjected to examination in Canada, this n 'ght be done, if not by the Scotch clergymen already acknowledged in the country, by the Government, by the Governor in Council, which would enable clergymen regularly ordained to enter, immediately upon their arrival in the country, on the full discharge of all their ministerial duties. The disabilities laid on the Presbyterians naturally produces discontent and jealousy. The Government of Upper Canada places its chief dependence on the loyalty of those districts that are most numerously settled by Scotch ; but as the Scotch are strongly attached to their National Church, no course of policy could tend distJ U ChiJ notJ 1] resp that] atH /*^ ,>i^. ' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 387 to tend more eflfectually to alienate their loyalty, and lead to « revolt, than a perie- Am. Man^ LtiH» verance in the policy hitlierto pursued with reopect to the Church Establishment. ^ ^' -^ Are you acquainted with all parts of Upper Canada, or with the most populous '' ^"'^ ''''• districts of it? — Not with all tiie province, but with the most populous districts. Have you been able at all to ascertain the total number of Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland in that province, including the Seceders and others ? — I have not, unless in perhaps four or five districts. In the districts with which you are acquainted, can you state what were thQ general proportions of the different religious sects ? — ^They vary very much. With respect to the Church r f England and the Church of Scotland, I should think that the members of the Church of Scotland are, to those of the Church of England, at least as ten to one. Do the grounds of difference which exist in Scotland between the congregations of Seceders and the congregations of the Church of Scotland exist in North America? — I think not What are the circumstances under which Presbyterians, living in North America, will remove from them the ground of difference which is found to sepa- rate them in Scotland ? — The difference in Scotland is principally on the ground of patronage, which cannot be said to exist in Canada. When any Presbyterian settlement becomes sufficiently numerous to be able to support a minister of the Scotcii Church, they usually appoint a committee to draw up a bond and call, and to transmit them to some Presbytery in Scotland, or else tu some private friend, to whom they may intrust the nomination of their minister. If they are either personally, or by report, acquainted with any young clergyman in Scotland, they may insert his name in the call, or name him tc the individual to whom they transmit their papers. Is there any difference in doctrine between the Church of Scotland and the Seceders, so as to prevent them being united in the same Church in Canada ? — I am not aware of any ; and I can state, from ray own personal knowledge, that there is not a Scotch congregation in Canada in which there are not several of the members who were Seceders in Scotland, previous to their emigrating to Canada, and that there are not now more zealous supporters of the Established Church of Scotland tiian these individuals. In farther proof of this I may state, that the congre- gation to which I was appointed at Cornwall had previously been under a dissenting clergyman ; that of Mr. Connell at Martintown, and Mr. Mathieson at Montreal, were both connected with the Dissenters, and had ministers from them. In the eastern district, where the Presbyterian population are better supplied with Scotch clergy than in any other districi, there is nut now one dissenting clergyman, although there were formerly two. And J have little reason for doubting that, with the exception of perhaps the towns, the same would be the result from having Scotch cler<>ymen placed in all the different Presbyterian settlements. Practically speaking, from your knowledge of Canada, do those two bodies of Presbyterians act with good understanding towards one anotiier? — One of the most respectable of the dissenting clergymen applied, nearly six years ago, to the Scotcli ministers in Canada to recommend to the General Assembly the receiving of him and some others of that body into connection with the Church of Scotland. The congregation at Niagara, to which Mr. Fraser was lately appointed by a dissenting body in Scotland, previously applied to the Scotch ministers in Canada fur advice how to proceed in order to obtain a clergyman in full connection with the Church of Scotland ; but they could not give a bond for such a provision as would authorize any Presbytery to grunt ordination, and the application was in conse- quence dropped. I am acquainted with two other congregations that have expressed a similar wish, and that will in all probability be supplied alter the present incum- bencies by ministers of the Scotch Church. Was there any collision or misunderstanding between them ? — I am not aware of any. Are you acquainted with the manner in which the churches in Upper Canada are built? — Those built by Presbyterians are built entirely by voluntary subscriptions. How are the ministers supported? — While I was in Canada they were supported entirely by the voluntary contributions of tlieir respective con>iregations. Are those churches of the Pre^bylerians as large sirucores as the churches of the Church of England? — In some instances they are larger, and in others nok so large. 569. N n 4 Do -«. ^\ a88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE jr«v. Harry Ltith. V ^ ' 18 June 183V. Do you know what «h« average expense of building one of Uhmc Presbyterian churclics is in Canada?— I sliouid think from .'ioo/. to 700/.; I know that the church tliat was built at Cornwall cost about 500/.; it is a frame building. Those built of stone or brick will cost from 900/. to 1,100/. The Rev. John Lee, D. D. again culled in ; and Examined. ..„■.<') ttec.Johtt Lte, THE Committee are informed that you are desirous of adding some expfaha- D. D. tion to the evidence you gave upon a former occasion? — The thing that I was most anxious to state is this, I find it represented in a speech published, I believe, by Doctor Strachan, that his letter to Mr. Wilmot Morton was written hastily in con- sequence of having learned that some members of the House of Commons had received letters from me, stating that there were 30 oruanixed congregations in Upper Canada in communion with the Church of Scotland. Now I beg leave to state, that prior to the time when Dr. Strachan's letter was written and printed by order of the House of Commons, I had never written any letter on the subject, and qa the contrary, my letters relating to that matter were written in consequence of the printing of his letter, which appeared to me, and to every member of the Com- mittee of which I am convener, as we'.l as to every member of the Church of Scotland with whom I had any conversation, to contain veiy great misrepresenta- tions ; my letters were written, I believe, about a month after Doctor Strachan's letter, and what I did state was to this purpose, that it was a thing that could not be denied that there were 30 congregations in Upper Canada professing to adhere to the doctrine and to the worship of the Church of Scotland, at the same time I did not state that they were organized or that they had ministers ordained by the Church of Scotland, but I stated at th- same time that only five or six had minis- ters who were ordained by the Churcli of Scotland. Have you a copy of that letter? — I cannot say that I have a copy, but I stated in my letters exactly what is in the memorial which I laid before the 'Committee ; tlie letters that I wrote were chiefly to Lord Binning, now the Earl of Haddington ; Sir Henry Moncrief, I believe, likewise wrote to Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Aber- crpmbie upon the same subject, and I think that he encloted one or two letters from nic to himself upon the subject. The information which I had received ought to have been correct, for I had been in communication with many individuals connected with Upper Canada, three or four persons who either were or had been ministers there, and several other people who had been in the country, and 1 am quite confidejit that I could have even given the names of the individuals that I mentioned. . Will you have the goo\ as at least 30. We have also now this information with regard to two of the districts, which Dr. Strachan takes notice of as containing no Presbyterian congregations, with regard to Niagara and Gore ; there are eight Presbyterian congrcgntions in each, i(i in all, although Dr. Strachan does not admit one. Arc there any other puints upon which you wish to make any statement to the Committee? — I trust it will not be irregular to take this occasion to represent to the Committee that it is very easy to account for the increasing number of clergymen pf ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 3S9 of the Episcopal pe; lasion, as tlie encouragement they liave received i!< so much greater; and, accordi >" to the information the General Assembly iiave received, a number of persons that have gone out as schoolmasters, some of them being licensed preachers in the Church of Scotland, have been prevailed upon to be- come Episcopalians, and have received orders. I find that in one district, the western district, three are mentioned as having in a short period become Episco- palians, and received orders in the Church of England. But although tiiose individuals, uho havn had I'rcsbyterian education, may be induced to change in this manner, it has not been found so far as we can learn that their congregations are disposed to go along with them ; but on the contrary, that the congregations are more disposed to adhere to tiiat doctrine and worship, and church government, which they prefer. Dr. Strachan himself was n schoolmaster, and educated for the Church of Scotland, and the circumstance uf his having gone over to the Church of England, so far as I can learn, has not at all tended to increase the numberof proselytes among the laity. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what are the grounds upon which the Seceders have separated from the Church of Scotland, and whether those grounds exist or not in the province of Upper Canada ?— The fact is, that among the original grounds of separation of the Secession from the Church of Scotland, the strongest was the revival of the law of patronage : there were some other grounds which certainly are admitted by many members of the Secession not to exist now to the same extent us formerly in Scotland. It was alleged, by many of the earliest seceders, that the Church of Scotlanit had separated in some measure from the doctrine of the Confession of Faith, but I rather believe that they are now convinced that a vast majority of the Church of Sqptland entertain the same views of doctrine w hich they themselves do. Is the ground of difference which still separates them confined solely to what you call patronage, or to the mode in which their respective miniiters are appointed ? — I conceive that to be the chief ground ; and indeed I may state that in Scotland a very great proportion, at least in large towns, of those that attend the places of worship in communion with the Secession, are compelled to do so by the impossi- bility of obtaining accommodation in the parish churches; the lower orders of people find it impossible to find accommodation. What is the rule held by the members of the Secession with respect to the patronage of the ministers ? — That rule is, that the people must elect their own pastors, and there was a period in the Church of Scotland when that was the law. In what way is the right of patronage, which you describe as being denied by the Secession, admitted by the congregations of the Scotch Kirk? — At present in the Church of Scotland the ministers in general arc appointed either by private patrons or by the Crown. Can there be in the state nf the Presbyterian church in Upper Canada ministers appointed either by the Crown or by private patrons ? — There is a possibility of the thing existing,' but the thing does not exist at present. Are the ministers actually elected by the people ? — I believe not. I understand that this is the practice generally adopted with regard to those who are in conneC' tion with the Church of Scotland : a number of people, feeling that they are capa- ble of contributing in some measure to the maintenance of a mmister, write to Scot- land requesting some ministers in whom they have confidence, or in some instance» requesting of the Presbytery to appoint a minister to be sent out to officiate among them, engaging that they will give an adequate maintenance to that minister ; and I rather believe that something like the same rule is observed in the Secession, although I have likewise reason to believe that some of tiiose who call themselves Presbyterians in Canada are persons who have gone out on their own adventure, probably have gone out us teachers, having previously received an education qualifying thcui to be ordained, and they have come home and been ordained by the religious body with wiiich they were previously connected. Are the Committee to conclude from the answer you have given that in point of fact, neither can the riglit of election exercised by the seceders, nor can the right of patronage in the congregations of the Church of Scotland, be acted upon in Canada in the same way as they are in Scotland ? — No, I would not exactly wish that that should be inferred ; fur in the case to which I have last adverted, there is probably an election. I shall state one case : there is in connection with the Church of Scotland a Mr. Sliced, now at Ancuster; that gentleman went out to • 569. O that Rev. John Lift a8 June iSal. 990 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE am. J*lkH Lit, D.D. ■t JUM 18118. that country, I believe, five or six years af;o ; he was licensed as a preacher in the . Church of Scotland, but not in full orders ; a chapel was built, and it is one of the churches which Dr. Strachan, as I am assured, mentioned ta one of the established churches ; but a churcb was built at Ancestor ; this Mr. Sheed was in tlie habit of preaching there fur some time, and at last the people united to call him to be their minister, to support him adequately ; and in consequence of this he came to Scotland, nearly two years ago, und was orduined to the charge by the Presbytery of Aberdeen : in that case there was an election. Was that a congregation of Seccders? — Not of Seceders, but of persons in connection witli the Church of Scotland ; so that even in the Churcb of Scotland there is nothing to prevent a minister being elected by the people ; and there are t)arishcs in Scotland where the minister is elected ; there is one of the most popu- ouB in Scotland which is vacant at this moment. North Leitii. If that point is settled, are there any grounds of diflersnce left between the Esta- blished Church of Scotland, and the Seceders r — The fact is, that we of the Established Church of Scotland feci that there is some diflferetice between the educa- tion of the one class and of Uio other ; not that I would in general say that the education of the Seceders is inferior to that of the Established Church, tor in many cases it is fully er^uai, but 't is not necessarily so strict as ours. Are you awurc that thf rcgium domtm which is given to the members of the Presliyterian Church in the north of Ireland is distributed equally to the ministers of the Secession, and to those of other congregations? — Probably it is ; but none of those congregations, so far as I know, are properly speaking in communion with the Church of Scotland. If it were stated to you that the two descriptions of Presbyterians that have been alluded to, consisting of the Churcli of Scotland and tlie S"ceders, thougii diflfering in Scotland, were willing to reconcile their ditferences in Canada, in order that they might obtain a portion of those reserves which by some are supposed (o belong exclusively to the Church of England, what answer would you give to thai statement ? — I may be allowed to state, that so far as regards the intormation which the (ienerid Assembly of the Church of Scotland has received, many of the con* fregations, although served by ministers who are not in communion with the )hurch of Scotland, have really been long desirous of being connected with the Church of Scotland; and I know that there are other congregations, at least I know of one other congregation, whose minister is at present connected with the Secession, but who are determined to have their next minister of the Church of Scotland ; and in such cases as I have now described, I should think it exceedingly hard if the members of the Cliurch of Scotland are at all admissible to the benelit of a share in those reserves, that persons who really have long been attached to tlie Churcli of Scotland, altliough from circumstances wiiich they deplore they have not had ministers of that church, should be deprived of that benefit. I may take the liberty of stating further, that although 1 know that it has been recently repre* sentcd that those ministers and people in Upper Canada, who hitherto have been diil'ering about matters of doctrine and worship, are now willing to unite, for the sake of receiving a share . tliose clergy reserves, I know that a vast number, and I believe the greater part of those who now profess their willingness to be connected with the Church of Scotland, have long been making the same profession. I have in my possession a number of memorials and petitions which were sent to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, some of tiiem six, some of them seven years ago; they have no reference wliatever to any share of the clergy reserves ; and many of those persons state that they have not ministers at all ; others say that they are supplied in some measure with religious instruction, but that they are particularly anxious to be connected with the Church of Scotland. I conceive that those persons have been quite disinterested in that profession, and that there can be no greater mistake than to represent tiiat this is done from any view to spoliution, or to taking what is nut legally their own. Supposin!^ tliat a portion of those reserves were to be made over to the Church of Scudand, have you any definite idea of tlie manner in which that church would propose to deal with Uiein so as to make tliem beneficial and useful ? — I cannot venture to say that any plan lias ever been proposed. Is it your belief that a portion of that unanimity that has appeared lately between the Seceders and the Scotch Presbyterians has arisen from the wish to share in tliat provisioa which is alleged to have been made for the established clergy ? — I cannot take ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. agi take upon me to answer for the niinitten at all, but I do admit in the fulleit extant Km. J»lm h$, what they represent, that the grounds of difference are very inconsiderable there, ^' "• and I run sufficiently account for this unanimity without any reference to the pruH. ^ — , • ^ pcctit that have been held out to them ; but at the same time I would ho|)e that this *'' ''*"" '"*'• distinction shull lie kept in view ; whatever may be the case with rt-fi^ard to the ministers who may have an interested motive in joining in this solicitation, assuredly the same motive cannot extend to the laity, who, as I have already endeavoured to represent, have for many years past professed a strong desire to be connected with the Church of Scotland,' and to have ministers of that commui.ion ( and for that reason I think there '\a little ground to question the sincerity of the profession! of those persons. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the tenets of the Seceders to be able to sav whether in case a provision was made for the Presbyterian ministers, and thofr appointment ploced in the hands of the Crown or vested in the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, those Seceders would concur in those ap|)ointni«nts ? — < I cannot venture to say that they would, I can only answer that from tlut p»titions and returns the Assembly has receivcti from many quarters, it appears that there arc a vast number of persons in every corner of Upper Canada who would wish to have ministers in connection with the Church of Scotland, and as we are led to believe the majority of them would ; it is not stated whether they arc at present Seceders or no. How urc the ministers appointed among the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland ? — 1 believe by election. By whom is the jurisdiction of the Presbytery exercised in the Canadas i^ — I am not aware that, properly speaking, there is any Presbytery ; there is what is called ii Presbytery in connection with the Secession, but there is no Presbytery in connec* tion with the Church of Scotland, and 1 do not think that the Church of Smtlsnd consider themselves us having the right of establishing Presbyteries beyond tho bounds of the kingdom of Scotland. Is not the Scotch clergyman at Calcutta in connection with the General Assembly in Scotland ? — There is something anomalous in that constitution, and it is rather conceived to be departing from the strict practice of the church. Jliar/w, 1* dk Julii, 1838. The Rev. Robert Alder, called in ; and Examined. YOU have acted as one of the Missionaries of the British Wesleyan Conference in Canada? — I have. Are you ac(]uainted with the circumstances of the Wesleyan Methodist con* nection in Upper and Lower Canada? — I am very well acquainted with their circumstances in Lower Canada, and partially acquainted with their state in Upper Canada. Can you state what the number of Wesleyan ministers at present in Lower Canada is r — There are nine. Are thbsu all of them natural born subjects of the King? — They are all natives of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. By whom are they employed, and under whose direction do they act ? — They are employed by the British Conference, a body that is recognised in a deed enrolled in the lligh Court of Chancery in England, and they continue to act under the direction of that Conference during the whole period of their missionary labour, From the peculiar nature of our discipline, the conduct of every minister abroad is as well known to the Conference at home as is the conduct of any of our ministers in England. In what way are tlie Wesleyan Missionaries in Lower Canada set apart to tho work of the ministry ? — By the imposition of iiands and prayer, after they lmv« been examined three several times respecting their general knowledge and theo- logical attainments, &c. Are they entirely devoted to their profession as Missionaries, or are they engaged also in any secular employment? — They are wholly devoted to the work of the ministry : they are not allowed even to keep a school for their own private emolu' ment; whatever instruction they give to the rising generation is wholly gratuitous, 569. O o 2 F.'om Th» Rut, ttohift Aldtr. i iuljr lial. 292 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOTIE SELECT COMMITTEE Tht Set. From what sources do they derive their iiicbino f— From tite voluntary contribu- Itebert Alder, fions of the people amongst whom they Inbuur, niid tlio llritish Conference. — ->^ ' What is the average amount of income of cacli minister, and upon what princi- I Jul/ 1838. pie is it regulated ? - A married MisiiionHry Ih allowed n furnished dwelling-house, and a sum of about a hundred guineas pur niinum ; if ho hnvu three children he is allowed 35/. additional for his children, nnd itu on in proportion to the number of his family. Then are the Committee to understand that tlio Ilrilish Conference annually expend a sum to cover the dtticiency of the voUmtary contributions of the people in Canada .' — They do. Can you state what sum is generally expended by Iho Dritish Conference tor the support of tlie mission in Canada? — From 500/. to 700/. in support of our mission in Lower Canada. Have each of those ministers a clinpel at which they perfurm service r — Yes ; and with the exceptions of the ministers MtHtioned nt Quobcc and Montreal, whose labours are chiefly confined to those two plnct'S, our Missionaries in the country preach on the average to five congregatioilit weekly, and fre(|uently travel from so to 70 miles. What is the number of chnpels or schooMiouics in liOWer Canada, which are used for the purposes of public worshii) in your connection? — I think we have 10 chapels in Lower Canada, and probably butwcon 40 uiul .'io utiicr places in which we usually perform Divine Service, Can you state the nuiober of the mcm()crs in your societies, and the number of those who geuwrally attend your congregations r-^ We have about 1,500 members in our societies in Lower Canada, and our congregations probably amount to between 5,000 and 6,000. Do you find that considerable nuuiberi, exclusive of those 5,000 or 6,000 attend occasionally, though belonging to other dcnotnidutions r— They do occa- sionally. In what manner are the rhupels and places of |Hibllc worship erected r — By the voluntary contributions of the people, who tioinetnncH involve tlicnisclves in pecu- niary ditficuUics in erecting places of wuritliip ; our chupel at Montrecl cost between 4,000/. and 5,000/., and the expense was dflrayed entirely by iiie people there. Do you conceive tlicrc is an abundant hupply of religious instruction for the demands of the people r — No, I do not conwlvo there is u sufliciint supply ; there is not a sufficient supply of Wesleyan Miitsioiiaries in Lower Cunuda. What do you conceive to be the reoson of tlittt r— The want of pecuniary means. The monies raised by the Methodist connection in Knulnnd for missionary purposes are appropriated fur the support of MiksionuricN m Ireland, in Western and Southern Africa, and in tlie East and Went Indiei*, ux well as in North America. The reason why we wisii to obtain a portion of tlio clergy reserves is not for our private emolument ; but that we may bo cnubled to extend our missionary opera- tions in Lower Canada. Have not the Wesleyan ministers been particularly active in the eastern town- ships of Lower Canada? — Yes, and with the exception of the clergymen of the Church of England, there are no other miniHtcrs connected witii any ecclesiastical body in England that preach in those townslii|)M. Do you conceive that if the Wchlcyun minhters were withdrawn from the town- ships, the Church of England would he capable of supplying thcni with clergy ? — No, I think not, and this is the opinion of tlie Ciovcrnor-(ienoral, from whose letter to me, which I received a few days before I left the province, I beg permission to read an extract : — " We all know, (lii» I-,ordsliip observes,) that the Established Church cannot provide clergymen ut all places where lliey arc rer|uired and desired, in that difficulty the Wesleyan uiiuibters have rcnihred most valuable services, and I think they arc qualified and capable to render inucli greater services under the protection and encouragement which they deniri) from llis Majesty's Govern- ment." Are there no Presbyterian ministers of the Kiik of Scotland in the eastern town- ships of Lower Canada ? — Not one. What other religious communities ine *here benitlen the (Chinch of England and the Wesleyan Methodists having ministerH in tliir coinitry pints of ('iiiuida who act under the direction of ecclesiastical uuthuriticx in (ircat Uritain r — None; there is Dot a minister in any of those townshiim, with the ference to the commercial interests of the country. If the Committee will then refer to s. 47, I think they will be convinced that it was intended to maintain this Act in force, and not to repeal it ; the section runs thus — " Provided always and be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, thut the net produce of all duties which shall be so imposed," (making no allusion whatever tu the duties which have been so imposed) " shall at all times hereafter be applied to and for the use of each of the said provinces respectively, and in such manner only as shall be directed by any law or laws which may be made by His Majesty, his heirs or successors, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Council and Assembly of such province." Thirdly, because if reference be made to the case of other colonies which possessed Legislatures at the |)eriod of passing the Declaratory Act, it is perfectly notorious that not a single year has elapsed since that Declaratory Act was passed, \a which duties have not been levied, and even remitted to this country, and deposited in the Exchequer, which have been raised wider British Acts passed prior to the Declaratory Act. I beg leave to call the attention of the Committee to the case of Jamaica. The Commissioners of Customs in Jamaica have annually remitted to this country, duties levied under the following Acts ; I take the schedule as it appears in the year 1S22 ; duties per Act 25 Ch. 2, 31 /. 18*. 6d. ; ditto, 6 Geo. '2, and 4 Geo. 3, 3,252 /■ 8 s. if39o/. I3«. (jd. deemed to be necessary for the public service, as would uupcar by the Lieutenant-Governor's estimate, was not voted by tlie Assembly. With respect to the manner in which that deficiency was practically met, the Secretary of State (Lord Bathurst) abolished some of the offices included in this 3»39" '•. nnd transferred others to the territorial revenues of the Crown, over which the Assembly did not so directly, at least, claim to have any jurisdiction ; it is per- fectly true that, in the first instance, Lord Uathunst remonstrated against (he con- duct of the Lieutenant-Governor in having sanctioned this Act ; but it was under the impression that the words of the Act did not maintain the integrity of the Crown revenue, and consequently that it was contrary to the Royal instructions. In the succeeding year 1826, the Assembly, with a view of obviating the construc- tion of the Act of 1825, as sanctioning the integrity of the Crown revenue, passed the following resolutions before they commenced the vote of supply for that year : — " Resolved, first. That the appropriation of any sums of money already levied, or which hereafter may be levied on His Majesty's subjects in this province, other- wise than such application is or may be directed to be made by the express pro- visions of law, is a breach of the privileges of this House, and subversive of the government of tliis province as established by law. Second, That no law imposing duties or taxes on His Majesty's subjects in this province, providing funds for the defraying the expenses of His Majesty's Civil Government, and those of the administration of justice, or of the Legislature in this province, can be held to con- fer upon any person a power or light of applying the monies thence arising, or making a special appropriation and distribution thereof, without the consent and authority of the Legislature. Third, That the sums granted and appropriated for any special service should be applied by the executive power only to defray liic expenses of that service, and that the application of any surplus of (units to uses for which they ucru not appropriated, is a misapplication of tho public money, a breach of public trust, a violation of the rights and privileges of this House, and subversive of the government of this province as established by law. Fourth, That this House will hold personally responsible His Majesty's re- ceiver-general of this province, and every other person or |)ersuns concerned, for ull monies levied on His Majesty's subjects in this province, which may have legally come into his or their hands, and been paid over by him or them, under any autho- rity whatsoever, unless such payments be or shall be authorized by an express pro- vision of law." I am not enabled to state to the Committee whether tiie bill of 1S26 was verbatim the same as the Act of 1825, because tiie bills arc not sent over to this country ; but tliat bill was amended by the Legislative Council for the purpose of uiurjuivocally maintaining in its terms the integrity of the Crown revenue raised under tiie 14 Geo. 3 ; the consequence of that aiiiendmcnt was, that tiie Assembly refused to proceed with it upon its return from the Upper House, and tlie ;0. V consent viyK MINUTKS Ol EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tht liiuht Huh. R.J. II . l/oiloii, M. V. I July 1838. consent t(» vole the cxistinn Civil List for a term of years, or for the period of the Kinn'ii llt'i! ; itnd it wus conaidered in the state of collision of feeling hetween the Asitcndily, us thos" representing the French interest, and the Legislative Council M repreMcntinx the Knulish interest, that if the Civil CJovernment was dependent nnnimliy upon u vote of the Legislature for its support, there was little chance of the puhlic iturvice heing carried on in that colony. It appears to me impossible for any person to form u just view of the case in dispute between the Colony and the Executive (Jovertniient, without ascertaining whether the charges which were made by the Executive (Jovernment upon the Crown revenue, were such as ought, or fliigiit not, in fnirnesa to have received the sanction and approbation of the Colonial Assembly. On what ground is 'it stated that in the 1 1 years that elapsed between 1 773 and 1784 the English law prevailed in the townships of Lower Canada? — A Royal I'ro- elamution was issued in 1 70,3, of which the preamble was in the following words : " Whereas We have taken into Our royal consideration the extensive and valuable acquisitions in America, secured to our Crown by the late dehnitive treaty of peace, concluded at Paris tho loth day of February last; and being desirous that all our loving Huhjecis, as well of our kingdoms as of our colonies in America, may avail themselveH with all convenient speed of the great benctits and advantages which must accrue therefrom to their commerce, manufactures and navigation, we have thought fit to issue this oiir royal proclamation." In the body of the proclamation there is the following passage; "And whereas it will greatly contribute to the Bpi'ody settling our said new governments, that our loving subjects should be inforuicil of our paternal care for the security of the liberty and properties of those who mv and shall become inliabitants thereof, we have thought fit to publish and declare liv this our proclamation, that we have in the letters patent under our great seal of (ircut liritain, by which the said governments are constituted, given express power and direction to our governors of our said colonies respectively, that so soon as the state and circumstances of the said colonies will admit thereof, they shall, with the advice and consent of the members of our Council, summon and call general assemblies within the said governments respectively, in such manner and iorin as is used and directed in those colonies and provinces in America which arc under our immediate government ; and we have also given power to the said gover- nors, with the consent of our said Councils and tlie Representatives of the people so to be summoned as aforesaid, to make, constitute, and ordain laws, statutes, and ordinances for the public peace, welfare, and good government of our said colonies, and of the people and inhabitants thereof, as mar as tnay be agreeable to the laws of England, and under such regulations and restrictions as are used in other colonies ; at'.:! ill the mean time, and until such assemblies can be called as aforesaid, all per- sons inhabiting in or resorting to our said colonics may confide in our royal protec- tion, /or the enjoyment of the benejit of the laws (four realm of' England; for which purpose we have given power under our great seal to the governors of our said colonies respectively, to erect and constitute, w itii the advice of our said Councils respectively, courts of judicature and public justice within our said colonies, for the hearing and determining all causes as well criminal as civil, according to law and e(|uity, and as near as may be agreeable to the laws of England, with liberty to ail persons who may think themselves aggrieved by the sentence of such courts, in all civil cases, to appeal, under the usual limitations and restrictions to us in our Privy Couniil." In what respect do .'•ucccedinf; Acts of Parliament affect the proclamation of I7(i,jr— Tlic Act of the 14th Geo. ;j, c. 83, was intituled, .\n Act for the making more ell'eetuul provision lor the Government of tlie Province of Quebec in North America. Under the 4tli clause of that Act all former provisions made for that province were to he null and void after the ist of May 177.5; and with re- ference to the proclamation of 17C3, that clause proceeds as follows: "And whereas llic provisions made by the said proclamation in respect to the civil govern- ment ol tlu! said province of Quebec, &c. Sec. have been found u|)on experience to be inapplicalile to the state and circumstances of the said province, &c. &c. ; Be it Enacted, That the said proclamation, so far as the same relates to the said province of (iutlMic, iiikI the commission under the authority whereof the government of the xuid province is at present administered, and all ordinance and ordinances, &c. &c. and nil connnissions,\c.iS;c,,ljelicrel>y revoked annulled and made void." The clauses of the .Act from loui terpetual collision, from which no escape was nntici- pntcd ut that time, except through the medium of a legislative union, and conse- quently whatever abstract objections there n)ight have l>een to that measure it was considered as one of permanent public necessity. liut the Committee are not to understand that you represent Mr. Pitt as having desired (o assimiliite the laws and habits of the two populations in Canada upon any other ground than the entire concurrence of the French population in such assimilation? — I only mean to imply that Mr. Pitt contemplated from the legisla- lion of 1791 that such assimilation would take place. I think the Union Bi'l of 1 8U2 was defective in not uior-^ 'explicitly securini; the rights, privileges, immunities and »'< vantages enjoyed by the jrcnch population under their own laws, and making such taws so far permanent as to be incapable of repeal by the operation of this united Legislature. Do you think that any bill could now be framed, the object of which should be uniting t'^'j two provinces, which could be made free from objection by the inha- bitants of both provinces ? — I am satisfied that no bill could be made which would be free from objection, but 1 am convinced that that bill of 1 822 might be so materially improved as to remove a great part of the objections which were not unjustly pre- ferred against it, and I do not myself see any alternative between the proposition of transferrmg to the province of Upper Canada a Port which shall enable her to maintaia her communication with the sea, and thereby effect her independence of the Lower Province, with respect to revenue arising from duties on goods imported seawards, or on the otlitr hand, the carrying into effect the provisions of a legislative Union. Could a port be given to Upper Canada by any other means than by annexing Montreal to that province ? — I am not aware of any other geographical facility of accomplishing that object. Do you think that tlie objections to the latter arrangement on the part of the I^ower Canadians would not be almost as strong as to an incorporating union of the two provinces ? — I entertain no doubt that very strong objections would be made by the Lower Canadians against such a proposal, but I repeat, that under the rela- tive circumstances of the two provinces, and the bounden duty of the mother country to act justly between them, I do not myself perceive any other than these alternatives. 1 cannot, however, avoid remarking, that should considerations of mutual defence, and a sense of common interest, create a growing opinion in favour of a legislative union in the two provinces, there does not appear to me to be any conclusive mode of adjusting their interests, witli respect to the appropriatbn of their comujun revenue, other than by an identification of interests, involved in the measure of union ; hut, at the same time, of a union which should guarantee to the French population their laws aad institutions in the seigneuries, to the extent of preventing the combined Legislature from voting away those laws and institutions, and at the same time should reserve space enough in the unsettled part of the province, so as to allow the Frencii population to spread iti-clf within the sphere of the operation^ of French law. Can the difficulty which arises in adjusting, collecting and distributing ttie customs revenue of goods imported into the St. I^wrence, in your opinion, be better pro- vided for than by the provisions which are contained in the Canada Trade Act ? — I do not imagine that, under the present circumstances of the two provinces, any mode can be suggested more likely to accomplish this object than that which is prescribed under the provisions of that Act. Several witnesses have stated to the Committee that, in their opinion, a system of duty and drawback might be adopted, and that a system of warehousing, in Lower Canada, goods which should be afterwards imported into Upper Canada and pay duty there might be adopted, and that either of them would be preferable to the course which has been enacted by law ; were those modes under the consideration 5%. Pp3 •£. The Highl Hmi. K. J. W. UortQH, M.K I July i8il. 303 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tk» AtfAl //on. R.J.^.Horton, M.P. 1 July i8a8. of the Colooial Department at the time that that measure was decided upon ? — A variety of sufy^estioiis were made to the Colonial Department at that period, and it was found then, as I Iwlieve it will be found now, that the I^wer Canadians were disposed to think that those facilities might exist, ond that the Upper Canadians were almost unanimously of a contrary opinion. Mr. Ellice in his evidence alludes to certain obstructions which prevented the provisions of the Act called the Canada Tenures Act from being carried into effect, and he refers to instructions which were sent to the local government to carry into effect the provisions of the Act of l Sia ; can you inform the Committee of the nature of those instructions ? — The Executive Council considered the question only in the abstract, and simply with reference to an equitable valuation of the rights of the Crown, which the seigneurs might wish to redeem ; but the great object of the clause not only to relieve the seigneurs from the feudal dues payable to the Crown, was. but also to enable them to free their censitaires, or Hub-tenantH, and thereby to intro- duce generally a system of tenure more favourable to agriculture end to tlic general improvement of the province. Lord Dalhousie was therefore instructed to give every encouragement to the seigneurs to free those who hold under tliem, and to make it known that in the event of any seigneur distinctly engaging to free his cen- sitaire on a principle of equitable composition whenever any of them may demand it, the Crown will in that instance free the seigneur at the rate of tive per cent, or in other words, one twentieth instead of one fifth of the value. The Committee huve been informed that a large portion of the land in Lower Canada has been granted in such large masses to persons who are not resident, and can hardly be found ; have the goodness to state wliat, in your opinion, would be the best mode of removing the ditKculties which now retard the cultivation of those lands ? —I should be prepared to concur with Mr. Ellice in opinion, that if a taxation of the waste lands could be carried into effect, it might be as convenient a mode of remedying that defect as the remedy of escheats ; but, at the same time, I do not at all concur with Mr. Ellice b his opinion of the practical difficulties of carrying a practical system of escheat into effect. It has been practically carried into effect in New Brunswick to the extent of a million of acres ; and I see no reason why, under proper regulations, it might not be equally carried into effect in Lower Canada. It would be necessary for this purpose that time should be given to enable parties to execute those stipulations of settlement duty, which hitherto they have omitted to execute ; as it would be unfair to visit upon them suddenly the consc* qucnces of that omission which has been tacitly submitted to by the Executive Government. There is one mode by which this principle of escheat may be carried into effect, which is, the forfeiting a certain portion of the land itself to the Govern- ment as a penalty for non-improvement, such forfeiture to take place periodically until the whole would be forfeited, supposing the party not to carry the stipulated improvements into effect. Instructions were sent out from Lord Uathurst, of the date of 1826, for the purpose of forming a commission of escheat, and of considering the best practical remedy of applying the principle ; but nothing is more certain than that unless some practical remedy be supplied, either of taxation or of escheat, tlie granted lands, which are now in a state of waste in Lower Canada, must effectually prevent all improvemtnts upon an extended scale in that province. Would the operation of a tax on land remaining waste conflict in any way with the system of escheat that is directed to Ik; carried into operation? — I should think the principle of escheat might be carried into cflfcct by the Crown simultancou^ily with any tax which the Legislature might impose upon uncultivated land. Lord Dalhousie states, in a letter addressed to Lord Bathurst, of the 5th of April 1 825, that with respect to escheat and forfeiture of grants of land for non-performunce of conditions of settlement stipulated in the letters patent, he has to observe, that of two and a half millions of acres granted in this manner in Lower Canada, not less than seven eighths remain uncultivated, and therefore liable to resumption by the Crown. It is supposed that six millions of acres held under seigneural tenure arc under similar predicament, but with respect to this description of lands it is doubt- ful how far the Crown will have a right to resume them if the proposed conversion of tenure should take place to any extent. Lord Dalhousie adverts to tlie expedi- ency as well as the right of recovering such immense tracts of land for the settle- ment of emigrants. He adds, the obsolete course of proceeding which the ancient law of Canada |>oints out for the resumption, both of soccage and seigneural lands, ib so incumbered with difficulties, and so inapplicable to the present state of the province, ON THE CIVIL GOVEUNMENT OF CANADA. 303 province, particularly with reftard to (iranta in the townships, that it is next to im- possible for the Crown to resume its juxt rights. In consequence of this suggestion of I^rd Dalhousie, that clause was introduced into the Canada Tenures Act which provides for the formation of courts of escheat. What steps have been taken by the Colonial Office to remedy this evil? — In the 6th Geo. 4, c. ,50, commonly called the Canada Tenures Act, the 10th clause provides, that courts of escheat shall be constituted in the province of Lower Canada to try forfeitures of uncultivated lands liable to escheat to the Crown. In the year iH'i6, Lord Ikthurst sent instructions to Lord Dalhousie to appoint one of the inferior judges to act as commissioner of the court of escheats under the clause of the Act of Parliament. Lord Dalhousie replied, that the judge had not time to execute the duties, and that some other person must be appointed, upon which Mr. Huskisson wrote out instructions to him, authorizing him to appoint a |)erson competent to perform the duty. It is to be recollected that no fund whatever exists, unless voted by Parliament, for carrying into effect this principle of escheat. The difficulties attached to carrying into effi^ct a satisfactory principle of escheat were considered so great, that when Colonel Cockl)urn was sent out inspector and commissioner, he received separate instructions to communicate with the governors of all our North American Colonies, and especially with Lord DaU housie, for tlie purpose of reporting to the Government at home the best practical method of carrying the system of escheat into etTect at the earliest possible period. I beg to express my opinion, that unles a system of escheat be carried completely into effect, there can be no possible improvement for those colonies, and that I have every reason to believe that the information in the bands of Government is such as will enable them at an early period to execute such a system. Is the system upon which land is now granted in Canada such as to prevent the probability of a recurrence of this inconvenience ? — Entirely ; but a statement of the system upon which it is granted may be given in to the Committee. The system upon which it is* now granted is, it b granted precisely in proportion to the capital which the individual has to lay out upon it. Is adequate security insisted upon for the expenditure of capital upon the land ? — ■ I consider that such security is involved in the prescribed regulations. The Committee were informed by Mr. Ellice, that he had found great difficulty in effecting a commutation of the tenure of his land from seigneury into free and common soccage, under the provisions of the Act for that purpose ; will you state ill what mode the difficulties may be removed ? — ^Tiie first arrangement that was made by Government, with respect to the change of the tenure from the feudal tenure to free and common soccage only, provided for the release of the immediate tenant under the Crown. The consequence was, that the purposes of that change of tenure were not carried into effect. The seigneur became released from his engagement to the Crown, but was not compellable to release his sub-tenant from similar engage- ments. The Canada Tenures Act provided, that in cases where the Crown tliought fit to remit its rights to the seigneur for a consideration of five per cent on the esti- mated value, that the seigneur on his part should be compelled by law to submit to arbitration as between himself and his sub-tenant, so that the sub-tenant could claim from liini the same change which he had effected in his own case with ttic Crown. What are the difficulties which prevent that arrangement being carried into effect.' — I consider the difficulties that interpose upon that point are the entire indisposition of the French population to avail themselves of this permission, and in point of fact it is a permission which is only available on tiic part of the English. But Mr. I'lllice, who was very anxious to avail himself of it, found so many difficulties in his way, that he was obliged to give it up ; and one of the difficulties that he states is, the very large fine of one-fifth of the value demanded by the Crown ? — ^The original claim of the Crown was one-fifth, but the Crown, in con- sideration of the advantage which was expected to accrue from a change of tenure, remitted that one-fifth or 20 per cent for five per cent. Do you think it advisable, se>::n^ the difficulties that still exist, for the Crown to contract its demands still more ? — If the seigneur would contract his demands upon his sub-tenant at the same time that the Crown contract its demands with respect to himself, I might be disposed to answer that I think it would be very desirable ; but I do not understand upon what principle of fairness it is, that while the Crown on the one hand is to release the seigneur, the seigneur is to maintain his full rights with respect to his sub-tenant. It was considered at the time, by all the information ne Right Htm. R. J. ir. Ilonon, M.P. 1 July i8a8. 569- Pp4 which 304 MINUTES OF KVIOENCK BEFORE SEI-ECT COMMITTEE R. J. IP. HortoK, M.P. v^ I ]u\j 1818. which could lie ohtuineH by CiovAriiinent, that a much greater SHcriltce wns made by the Crown to thr oii the subject, which would enable me to give any specific suggestions upon it. At the same time, I would observe that, in my opinion, it is expedient that the most unqualified publicity should be given, both in the colonics and in the mother country, to all (wcuniary account;), appropriations, and matters of finance. If this principle be fairly acted upon, it will, in my judgment, cfi'ectually prevent toi the future all serious difficulty upon such subjects. Mr. Ellice stated that the Governor of Lower Canada has been instructed to remedy the difficulty arising from t)ic Assembly not voting siip|)lies by his own warrants on the receiver, to whom the taxes are paid, under tlie provisions of tlic Canada Trade Act ; have you any information to give the Committee upon thut point ? — The Governor did not receive instructions to u|)propriatc any duties received under the Canada Trade Act ; but under the emergency in wliich he lius been nut unfrequently placed, from the total cessation of all supplies, to carry on the govern- ment of the colony, he has drawn u|)on the una|)propriated revenue, and such a proceeding is necessarily to be justified only from the extreme difliculty and embai- rassment of his situation ; the discretion wliicii he lias ))een coui|>elled to excrcisu on such occasions has received the sanction of the Secretaries of State. Will you have the goodness to state to the Coniuiiltee, the circumstances thut attended the introduction of the Alien Uiil ? — The object of the Upper Province, in desiring that the Alien Bill should be passed, was for the purpose of enabling aliens (in the strict sense of the term) to sit in the Legislature, and of quieting titles ; no person could be legally entitled to the possession of land who was not a natural born subject, or who had not taken tlie oath of allegiance, and there were a great many persons who were not qualified under those restrictions. .Are you aware what proportion of the population of Upper Canada were ho situated ? — A very considerable proportion of the population of Upper Cunuda were subject to this restriction ; and it was necessary to have an Act passed in this country, in the first instance, to give effect to any local Act ttiat might be passed in Uie province for remedying this inconvenience respecting elections. With res|)ect to the provisions of the local Act, which the Lieutenant-Governor in Up|)er Canada was directed to liuve introduced into the Assembly, its provisicuii were fnimed witli tiiu anxious desire to produce a measure of entire conciliation ; and with respect to tiie conduct ot the Colonial Department, it is necessary to men- tion that these iiistrticiiuiis, wliicli I^ord llathurst sent out to the colony for tlin piis!>in;» ON THE CIVIL UOVEKNMENT OF CANADA. m Ding of a local bill, and wiiich excited di»iiati.iructioii, wore ritgululioni which rtctivtd the iip|irnbation of a inemb«r of the (.ei^iilaturf, who was over in thia country niuro or less in the cimracter of on aKcnt fur lliv province, with rei|i<'it In certain grievances complained of. When tliosc objection* which were iinex|iei:ti)dly found to exist in the LcKiHlature wore made known to the Colonial Departinunt, Lord (iuderich sent out instructiona, upon which a bill was brought in, which ha* finally settled the question. Were there any essential differences between the bill aa pro|)oicd by Lord Dathurst, than that which was proposed by Lord Ooderich, and accepted in Canada i>— Undoubtedly ; the principal distinction was this, that by the bill sug- gested by Lord Dathurst, all parties, however long they niigiit have been residenti were re(|uired to resort to the same means of establishing their titles us those who were comparatively late residents; and the distinction taken by Lord (icHlerich, was to put a limitation to the time for which this was necessary, and to consien taken by tho Government for disposing of the crow n and clergy i eserves to the Canada Company ; lie states that " an attempt was made by the Government to dispose of all thin pro|)erty to the Canada Company, but the church, always careful of their interent, did not approve of the price awarded by tiie commissioners, and which was in faut greatly cxcecdin)j; its present value, and that chance of removing part of that nuisance has pa.'sscd away, and it is impossible to avoid observing on tlie vacillating policy of the Colonial Ottice, which did not insist upon the arrangement being carried through." The principle upon which those lands were disposed of to tlia commissioners was a principle of general average, and the church, who wero bound to consult their own legal rights, complained, as 1 consider justly, that whereas the clergy reserves were the more valuable lands, tlie average that was taken upon their lands necessarily gave per acre a less amount to them than they would have dune if the clergy reserves had been taken 8|)ecially. Is there any reason to believe that the clergy reserves are more valuable per ncra tliaii the crown reserves? — All the reports that have been made to the Colonial Department go to prove that the cler|>y reserves, which always have been moitt cui't'fully sel> :d, are in fact more valualile than the crown lands. In the laying out of a township who has the selection of the clergy reserves ?-'. The Governor and Council. It is necessary to observe that the seventh appro« pi iutcd to the clergy is appropriated by a statute ; the seventh appropriated to ttio Crown is merely at llie discretion of the down. In your opinion will the steps that have been taken to provide for the alienation of the clergy reserves be suiHcient for that purpose ? — The Committee are awtiro that a bill has passed enabling the Governor and Council in Upper Canada to sell i 00,000 acres of clergy reserves every year, in my opinion that bill is insufficient to ei)'ect the remedy which is so imperiously called for, because I think it would be extremely expedient to allow portions of the clergy reserves to be sold lor the purpose of giving value to the remainder for the purpose ot making roads, and (ler* forming settlement duties, and preparing them for cultivation, and I am of opinion that if those duties were done, and the clergy reserves improved to u certain extent^ there would be no difficulty in leasing them on long leases, so us to make them pro* ddctivc at a much earlier period than might be expected. The proceeds of th« 569. Q q iule H. J. IV. Httrttn, M. r. t July il«l. 3o6 MINUTKSOF EVIDKNCli HFJOUK SKLKCT COMMITTEK Tilt Itight Hon. sale of those reserves, ns directed hy Htiitutc, urn U) ho impounded, and the rents and R.J. W.noriou, profits tipphed to sucli purposes as the Act of tlic .'M»t (Jco. ,) directed, whatever ^^ ^'-"j J those directions muy he; but I niii nlhulinn lit iill idmoiute alienation of part of ~^' those reserves, for tlie purpose of applyinn; tiie UKiiiry for wliich those reserves are I July i8j8. g^ij |Q^^,m.,)g (|,g iinprovcnient of the renininiicr, liiciihy inakiiij^ that remainder more valuable than the whole was prior to hucIi Hlitimtion. Is there any thing in the Act of 1701 tlun ii|ip(iiri» lo ('onti'iiiplatu the expenditure of a suuj of money upon those reserves for tlin piii'|i(i^(; of improving them r — There docs not appear to be the slij^htest ulliision to llic m( ccK'^ily of ca|)ital being laid out upon them before they could he made proihictlvts It is evident that the object of those who framed the Act of 1791, as well as tlm rcKidation respecting the crown rdscrvee, was founded upon the expectation thai civili/iition would surround those waste lands, and give value to them in c»nHt.'(|ii(ni'e ut that circumstance, whereas the actual etfect has been, lliat the exiatencn of ijiote reserves has prevented that very civilization from taking place. It appears that out of the crown lands granted to the ('anada Com[)any, a reser- vation of 7,50/. a year has been awarded lor the Sctitch (^liincli, with wimt view was that award made? — It was considired hiniily expedient lliiitth'; Scotch Church should have a provision, and wliatever might he the adiudicatioii with respect to tiie clergy reserves, it was quite evident, that even if the piiiiciple of diviilingthe profits of those reserves between the two cliurelies had been adopted, it would liave yielded only 200/. per annum to the Scotch (Jhurcli, which would be insnUicient to meet the denrands for their pastors, and con^ecmcnlly the Secretary of State recommended the appropriation of a |)art of the proceeds of the payments of the Canada Company to the payment of the Scotch clergy. I low long is that 7,50/. to l)e continued to the IVeshyterian Church? — The 7,50/. is necessarily at pleasure ; but it is to I'ontiuiie ns long as the payments arc made from the Canada Company, whicli invulved u period of 1,5 years absolutely, and a probability of a much longer period. Mr. I'.llice observes that " the clergy reserves are either kept in a state of wildernesH, no person being liable for road duties through them, and the industrious settler being exposed to all the inconveni- ence of large tracts of forest intervening helwecii his settlement and n market, or persons have occu[)ied the more improved and iiccetsihle parts of them wichout title." I am of opinion that much uf this inconvenience, if not nil, would be removed by the principle of alienating a portion of the clergy reserves, for the pur- pose of applying the proceeds of them for the lotinalion of roads, and in the general execution of what aie called settlement duties ; and that tlu; (fleet of this would be, not only to improve the general condition of IIh' province, hut to make, as I have alreaiiy observed, the remaining part of tlioiie re»rrve» immeasurably more valuable than tliey are in their present state. What has been the uii thod ol dispoiiiiK of the cro^»n reserves in nil those districts? — It is perhaps unnecessary to riimnk that liie Crown, having the undis- puted appropriation of the six-scveuths, alter llic Mili%lraclion ol One-seventh for the purposes of the clergy, there could he no motive in '«epanilini; onc-seventli from the remainder, except a motive loimiled upon the cxpecldlion already adverted to, that some peculiar value was to attach to this rehcrvalion, In ciHiseipience of tiie settle- ment of the surrounding country, and the ()iianlily of ungranted land in Upper Canada having been so great, it I .is m *cr h.eii' necessary for the purpose of satisfying tiie demands > 1 settlers to ajtpidpiiate those crown reserves ; and tiiere- fore they have reuiained u.^on the same principle as the clergy reserves, practical nuisances in the piovince. J las llic attcnliun you have paiil Ik lhi-« "luhjecl led you If doubt off!;;; pn/ucv of providing for the religious wants of ihe communily in such a country ns Canada, liy u permanent revenue derived lioui the iippuipiiiition id' any portion of tlie soil ? In answering that rpiestion, I would beg lo draw a diHiinclion lictwcen glebe n|)pro- priated for the actual use (it 11 cli igyinan, and Urge iiiaHse'^ of land set aside to pro- vide a revenue lor tiie clan ch ; I think the III i| it in the higliesi degree (:x|)edient ; I tlimk the other necessarily presculs piaclie.d diHli ultiei, which it would be very desiralile to remove ; and it appear'! lo me thai tin piactieal remedy in the present instance is to ai)pr()priate glche land, when circiiiii i.iiiees rcfjuire it, for the use of clergymen of the Church of Miiiiiaiiil ; and Willi leiipcct to the gc vral revenues of the church, to apply the pidceeds ol the silc ol Ihoic revenues as they are progres- iively released from iri'iit'iiiiiii. I would ui.li lo i)(,iliiin thnt wIk-m I nHndc to ii|i(iropiiiitiiig ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 30.7 appropriating glebe snccKiciilly to a clergyman of the Church of England, I do not mean necessarily out of any lands reserved by the Act of 1791, but out of lands at the disposal of the Crown, it such were more conveniently situated, which could be exchanged for lands so reserved. From the opportunities you have had of ascertaining the feelings and opinions of tlie people of Canada on this subject, should you not be disposed to say that Government and the Legislature of England should be very cautious of doing any thing which could give rise to the slightest suspicion that there was any intention of establishing a dominant church in that country? — The Act of 31 Geo. 3, c. 31, clause 3G, established the clergy reserves, that is directed that one-seventh part of the grants of land should be allotted and appropriated for the support and main- tenance of a Protestant clergy within the colonies ; and it is stated that this is done for the purpose of making the best arrangement, with a view to the due and suffi- cient support and maintenance of a Protestant clergy within the said provinces. Th 37th clause enacts, " that all and every the rents, profits or emoluments which may at any time arise from such land so allotted and appropriated shall be appli- cable solely to the maintenance and support of a Prttcstant clergy, and to no other use or purpose." Up to this point therefore no reference is made to an endowed church j but the 38tli clause proceeds to enact, " that it siiould be lawful for His Majesty, &c. &c. to constitute and direct within every township or parish which now is or hereafter may be formed, constituted or erected within either of the provinces of Lower or Upper Canada, one or more parsonage or rectory, or par- sonages or rectories according to the establishment of the Church of England, and from time to time, by an instrument under the Great Seal of sucii province, to endow every such parsonage or rectory witli so much or such part of the lands, &c." meaning the clergy reserves, as it might be judged to be expedient under the then existing circumstances of such township or parish then to appropriate." The next clause attaches the same terms and conditions to those parsonages or rectories, and the same performance of duties, as are incident to a parsonage or rectory in England. The next clause places them under the jurisdiction of the bishop. The 41st clause gives a power, and a most important one, to the local legislature, of varying or repealing several provisions there recited in any Act or Acts whicii, being passed by tiic two Assemblies, should receive the consent of the Crown. In answer therefore to the in(|uiry, whether I should not be disposed to recommend Ciuition, lest any suspicion should arise that there was an intention of establisliing a dominant churci) in that colony, I beg leave to be permitted to make the follow- ing ol)servations : It is pert'cctly clear to me, that the franiers of that Act entertained the erroneous impression that tiiis system of reserved lands would, in a short time, coniparativcly speaking, produce a fun(' which might be generally applicable for the purpo.ses of furnishing income to the clergy of the Established Ciuirch, whether of England or of Scothmd, as I conceive the words " Protestant clergy " to refer to clergy of tiic two recognized e.-itahlishments ; and it appears to me, from the con- struction of those clauses, that a sjiccial endowment of land, in cases where there was a demand, lor the Churcli of England was jirovided for, whereas there was no such provision made for tlie Scotch Churcii ; I consequently consider that I am justided in interring that the Church of England was intended to be so far a domi- nant chiircli as to have the advantage of lands spccificaliy appro|)riated for its main- tenance, as contradistinguished (iom the Scotch Church, which was to have sucli proportion of liio [)ro)its, rents and emoluments of those reserves as, under the dis- crition of the Executive Government, it might he ex|icdicnt to allot to them. Hut it a|)pears to me ijuite conclusive, that there was no intention ot necessarily estab- iisiiing liie Church of luigland as a dominant ciiinxh, inasmuch as the 41 st clause ;:ives a power to the local legislatures, witii the consent of the Crown, of altering all the jirovisions wiiich arecontahied in the 3(ith, 3"th, 38th, 39th and 40th clauses. M'oulil the measures you liave suggested go to atlect the apfiropriation of tlie clergy lands when thry become improved, according to your plan? — If the Com- mittee will allow me to re-statc my suggestion, it is this : that for the purpose of r( lieving the province horn the practical inconvenience of those portions of reserves which impede the general Cditivation and civilization of the province, 1 propose that part of them should i)e alienated lor the purpose of making roads, in preparing them ibr cultivation, and for settlement. At preseiH there is no power under any Act of (•liicting this purpose, inasmuch as the law only allows of tiieir being sold ; and the pioeeeds of such sale being impounded for t'litmc appropriation. If those reserves '■((ii). Q '] ^ ^'^^^ The Right Hon. R. J. IV. Horton, M.P. >> ^ y 1 July 1828. 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1 July 1838. r*« Right Htm. were to be retained for ar.y very extended period, there can be no doubt that ulti- * "^M p'^*'^' "lately, after the lapse perhaps almost of centuries, they would acquire very great ,^^ 'J_ ^ value ; but if they are sold at an early period, it appeirs to me that the money for which they may sell may legitimately be applied for the purposes contemplated under the Canada Act, namely, the support of a Protestant clerj»y, iucludin;; under that term the clergy of the Established Church ; and I do not perceive what detri- ment can possibly accrue to the colony (provided those lands are progressively released from mortmain) in consequence of the interest of the money for which they niuy be sold bein<; applied for that purpose. I should propose that all the better portion of the clergy reserves, which have already acquired a value from their proximity to cultivated lands, should be first subjected to sale, and so on till tho whole are disposed of. Mr. Ellice states, in his evidence with regard to tiiese reserves, that there is no hope of their being sold to the extent of 100,000 acres annually, or even of .25,000 acres being so sold. He adds, *' They do nothing to encoiirajie settlers ; they neither make roads, build miiis, nor lay out one shilling of capital." Now I propose to remedy those defects, by allowing the absolute aliena- tion of part of those very reserves for the purpose of making those very improvements. What has been the object of limiting the quantity of clergy reserves that can be sold in one year ? — From the supposition that there would be no demand for their sale beyond that amount, considering the quantity of land that the Canada Company has to dispose of, and the mass of land that is ungranted. Would not that state of things make the limitation unnecessary ? — The reason is this : if it were not limited, 500,000 acres might be brought into the market and sold for nothing, and therefore it was to prevent the reserves being hastily and impro- vidently brought into the market that limitation was made ; but if there was any chatice of etfecting a sale of those reserves at an earlier period I should consider the limitation as most impolitic. The Committee have been informed that the establishment of the University of Upper Canada, from the government of which all denominations of Protestants, except those that belong to the Church of England, have been excluded, has mate- rially tended to increase the jealousy that already existed in Upper Canada with regard to the Church of England ; can you inform the Committee under what instructions that University was so founded ? — It was founded by a charter under the Great Seal, and it relieved the students from an obligation to subscribe to the Thirty- nine Articles, « hich had been an obligation imposed l)y the constitution of the other North American provinces. In what way is it endowed r — It is endowed with land, and an appropriation made to it from the proceeds of the crown reserves sold to the Canada Company. Has not the Council the appointment of the professors?— Undoubtedly. Are not all the members of the Council required to be members of the Church of Enalandr — Yes. Have the crown reserves been effectually disposed of, so as to prevent the incon- venience continuing which has arisen from them ? — All the crown reserves in Upper Canada have been disposed of to the Canada Company, with the exception of those in new townships which have been laid out since tiie ist of March 1824. On what footing do they stand in Lower Canada? — They still remain unsettled ; in fact, the quantity of land tliat is settled is so much less in tiie Lower than in the Upper Province, that there is a much smaller proportion of Crown reserves in the one thaii in the other. Hut nothing in my opinion can be more iui()olitic tliun to make any distinction in tlie six-sevenths that belong to the Crown. I consider the jirinciple of reserv;Uion of a seventh for the Crown to be an erroneous one, as the first object sliould be the entire settlement of particular districts, ratiier than a partial and general settlement. Will you inform the Committee of the sums that iiave been paid by the Canada Company and tlieir appropriation ?— The sum which the Canada Land Company is actually bound to pay in it) years in unnual instalments amounts to 301,3(17/. sterling. They are compelled to lay out on the im[)rovement of the block of a million of acies, given in lien of tlu clergy reserves, a sum amounting to 43,000/. On the 1st of July 1826, the first payment commenced of 20,000/.; that payment exceeded some of the subse(iuent years, in order to cover tlie expenses of the arrangement. In 1827, 15,000/.; in 1828, 15,000/.; in 1829, 15,000/.; in 1830, i(),ooo/.; in 1831, 17,000/.; in 1832, 18,000/.; 101833, 10.000/.; in 1834, 20,000/.; imd 20,000/. every succeeding year to the end of the term, it being at the option of the ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 309 1 July iSa8. the Company to increBsc tlie annuity payment as it may seem fit, it being provided, Tht Right Boh. that in tiie last year the account shall be completely settled, that is on the ist of ^- '^- {^ ^'"■'<'«, July 1834. The appropriation which the Secretary of Stat« recommended to the ' ' Lords of the Treasury is as follows: first, the sum of 8,500/. per annum for the civil establishment of Upper Canada, which till that year had formed an item in the estimate annually voted by Parliament; secondly, 1,000/. as an annual grant towards the huilJinjr of a college for the province; third'y, the sum of 400/. as an annual salary to the Roman Catholic Bishop resident in that colony ; fourthly, the sum of 750 /. as an annuel provision for the Roman Catholic Priests in that province ; fifthly, the sum of 7.'j0 /. as an annual provision for the Presbyterian Ministers in connection with li>e Church of Scotland, having stated cungi'egations in the province ; sixthly, the sum of 400 /. us a pension to Colonel 'J'albot, as a reward for the service^' of that officer, and the sacrifices he had made in settling the London and Western districts ; the sum of 2,566 /. as an annual compensation for the period of seven years to those officers of the land-granting department in Upper Canada, who by the adoption of the new regulations for granting lands are deprived of their emoluments. The s what data Mr. Ellice gives that opinion. I believe nothing can exceed the economy with which the Legislature of Upper Canada dispenses the finances under their control ; and I know no fund from which the payment of the 8,000 /. annually voted by Parliament could be forthcoming. IIow is the clergy corporation appointed? — The clergy corporation was esta- blished at the recommendation of the Governor and Executive Council, and appointed by it structions sent out to the Governor of Canada to appoint a Committee of the clergy, of which the bishop should be at the head, for the purpose of con- sidering the most productive mode of dealing with the lands set apart for the clergy, under the 31st ot the King, such disposition being necessarily limited to leasing, as there is no power of alienation under the Act. By what instrument has that corporation been appointed ? — Such an appointment would be made unJer the great seal of the province, under instructions from the Government at home. Is there a copy of that instrument in the Colonial Office ? — I believe not, the instrument having been ))repared in the colony. Is there in the Colonial Office any copy of the instructions which directed the Governor to issue such an instrument ? — There is. You arc aware that Mr. Ellice has stated his opinion that blame ought not to be imputed to any persons connected with the Executive Government in either province, but that the dissensions in Canada were the inevitable consequences of II determination on the part of the Goverimient at home to persevere in a wrong system? — I find great difficulty in reconciling Mr. EUice's evidence on this point. He states that the great object of the Assembly of Lower Canada is to retain their separate institutions, their laws, their church, and their condition as distinct from the people of America, and that thougii much may be done by mutual concession, all their oiijccts can only be effected at the expense of the interests of the English population, and by the retardment of all improvement in the country. The Com- mittee arc aware that tliis is jirecisely the language which is maintained in the petitions from the townships, which have been presented to Parliament, and especially in those which are laid before this Committee, from the townships to the Governor-Gcntral in the year subsequent to the proposition of the Union. Those petitions distinctly express the gratitude of the petitioners to the Legislative Council, for having resisted the attempt of the Assembly to |)rejudice the English population and to retard improvement. Whereas the Legislative (Jouneil is com- plained of, on the part of the Erench Canadians, as t)eing the main source of all the dissensions existing in the province. Mr. Ncilson employs these words : " The laws that arc conceived by the people to be necessary for tlie common welfare are rejected l)y the Legislative Council, that being chiefly composed of persons who are dependent on the Executive Government of the province." The object of the 569. Q '1 3 opposition i\o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE M. P. I July 1838. Tk» Right Won. opposition of the Legislative Council to the measures of the Assembly, if Mr. Ellico'» *"'• ^- Norton, yjcv of the purposes of that Assembly be correct, is to maintain the interest of the , Ejjglish population, and to prevent that retardation of the improvement of tlie country wliich Mr. Ellice states the French Canadians to contemplate. I would wish to show that the opinion of the English population is such as I describe, by reference to the following paragraph, which appears in the petition to the House of Conunons trom the townships : " That while your petitioners waited patiently tho eftl'ct of their repeated solicitations for redress of grievances, to be administered by the Provincial Legislature, the Legislative Council, in the session of the year 182.5, by recommendation of his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, passed a bill uf tho most salutary description, introducing into those townships the English law of dower and conveyance, and making incumbrances special, establishing also pi'blic offices therein ^or the eiiregistration of all mutations of real property, and of all mortgages on the same ; that though this bill, carefully abstaining from every unnecessary innovation, neither disturbed the routine nor touched the customs of the French Canadians in the seigneuries, the House of Assembly, evincing its character- istic disregard for the claims of your petitioners, neglected to proceed upon the same bill when set down for concurrence," &c. And Mr. Robert Gillespie, one of the witnesses before this Conunittee, being asked in what manner the dissensions between the diB'ercnt branches of the Legislature obstructed the operation uf commerce and the improvement of the Canadas, answers in these words, " IJy preventing the enactment of laws necessary for the security of trade, there is no such thing as knowing at present when real property is mortgaged or not ; "' and so on. On the other hand, Mr. Neilson states, " thnt no change which will be for the general good of the country will be resisted by the Assembly, for the Assembly are the true representatives of tho people, and must do what will bo fur the good of the people ; if they do not, they had better go home and mind their own business." The Committee cannot fail to observe that the question turns upon, whether the good of tho people is to be promoted by approximating thci.- instilutiooH towards the English system, or by not only maintaining the French institutions in their present integrality, but by extending it over all lliat portion of the Lower Province which is inhabited by an English population. This is the real key to the dissen-^ions which have existed in that province, and which I consider to have grown out of the short-sighted legislation of 1 79 1 ; in proof of this I would remind the Com- mittee that Mr. Viger adverts in his evidence to the improved condition of Lower Canada, which would have taken place if a proper system of conduct liad been followed with regard to the Canadians. This question is tiicn put to him : " Wliun you say a proper system, do you mean if the French system and the French law liad not bt-Jii obstructed in its operations?" He answers, " So far as •liis, that tlicy siiuuld iiave con- tinued to let the French law prevail all over the counuy." in point of fact, nothing can be more discrepant than the views which are entertained by t!ic agents for tlie French population of Lower Canada with respect to the functions and duties of this Legislative Council, which one party supposes to be the source, and the other Ihu prevention of all mischief. Mr. Neilson says, " thit an independent LegiMlntive Council woidd give to Canada something like u British Constitution, in that case there would be a body that would have a weight in the opinion of the country when the (iovernor and the Assembly were at variance, and on whichever side they declared they would incline the balance ;" whereas Mr. Viger is asked, " Is ii not the wish of the Canadians to change the structure of the Legislative Council, and to take measures for ensuring its formation in such a way as to make it likely that it would agree with the Legislative Assembly ?" Ho answers, " I am sure we \i\\\a wish that ilic I^'gislativc Council should be composed of men who would side with the mass of tiic pco|)Ie.'' Mr. Neilson states tliat in Nova Scotia, where things go on very well, the revenue de|)cnds upon an annual vote of tlie Legislatun;, so that njt only the up|)ropriati'in of the money, hut the very eollceliug of the money is dependent upon an aniiuji vote of the Legislature, and there the (iovernmunt and llie .Ysseinhiy gii on very t\ell in concert ; can you inform the Committee wliether that is correctly ^t.ltl•d - — Mr. Neilsun totally ouiit-> to st.ite that the civil list is voted by the Diitish I'ailia- inent, and that c'()n3e(iiienlly tlie Mune cause of collision iloes not exist there wliich exists in Lower Canada. It is unnecessary for me to explain to the ('oiiiinittee that tlii-5 is the ciise in all our North Auierican provinces, witli tlie e\(;L|ilioii of Upper Canada, tiie expense'j of whose civil list however are dcirayod from proceeds (ii ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OP CANADA. 311 of funds belonging to the Crown, and are not dependent on a vote of the local Legislature. V'ou have heard much observation from the witnesses respecting the constitution of the Legislative Council ; have you any remarks to offer to the Committe on '^ that subject ? — Here again I would call the attention of the Committee to the different evidence which is received on such points ; Mr. M'Gillivray, states that those who arc opposed to the measures of Government complain of the Legis- Jnlivc Council, who generally have sided with the Governor when there has been any 'jucstion in difference between them ; but he adds, " I have not heard of any com- plaint of the composition of the Council ; where there are parties, however, there will always be complaints." I have no hesitation in expressing my concurrence in the abstract opinions respecting the composition of the Legislative Council which have transpired during tiiis inquiry, but 1 doubt extremely whether, under the circumstances of Lower Canada, it is possible to bring this Legislative Council to that state of theoretical perfection which is looked for by some members of the Committee ; at the same time, with respect to this Council, as well as to all other points where an improved system can be applied, it is necessarily the duty of Government so to apply it. You are aware that Mr. Neilson has given evidence respecting the dismis.sal of militia officers by Lord Dalliousic ; have you any information to give to the Committee on that point? — The following general orders, which were issued at twodifferent periods by Lord Dalliousie's directions, will explain the grounds which his lordship assigned for the measure in question. The Committee will perceive, from the general tenor of those orders, that it was for conduct connected with their duty as militia officers that his lordship was mainly induced to dismiss the individuals in question. " Office of the Adjutant-General of Quebec. — Quebec, I2th of September 1827. — Generhl Order of Militia. — His Excellency the Governor and Commander in Chief takes an early opportunity to express to the battalions of militia in Lower Canada his sentiments on certain recent proceedings which nearly concern their loyalty and honour. It is well known that the laws under which the militia force has been regulated for many years have been enacted for short periods, and have been repeatedly renewed as a substitute for the permanent la«s passed in 1787 and 1789. Those temporary Acts, however, not having been renewed in the last session of the Provincial Parliament, '.■xpired on the 1st of May; and it was immediately notified to the militia by His F.xcellency's directions, that under the existing circumstances the old permanent ordi- nances came into force. Evil disposed persons were not wanting to spread doubts on the subject, and to those were added gross misrepresentations and calumnies re- garding the intentions of the Executive Government, all tending to create discontent and dissatisfaction in the province, but more particularly to induce the militia to ob- ject against and disoliey the orders issued under those ordinances for the usual musters in summer. The Governor in Chief has seen witli great satisfaction that the utmost exertions of the ill-disposed have totally failed to disturb the natural disposition of the pe()|)lc to order and obedience, with very few exceptions, and those chiefly of officers holding commissions. The musters of July and August have been unusually numerous and well attended. It is therefore an important and a most agreeable duty to His Excellency to offer his warmest acknowledgments in approbation of that conduct by which the battalions of militia have shown their loyalty and proper sense of duty ; but while the (lovcrnor in Chief thus gives tlie reward of praise where it is so well merited, he feels that his liuty imperiously calls upon him at this time to deprive of the distinction of holding commissions in the militia all such persons as have neglected to attend at the mus-ters rc(|ui;eil by law, or who by their conduct or language at public uicetings have failed in that respect which is due to the repre- senliiMvc of their Sovereign. Tliis, however, is a work of time and investigation, which, though necessarily attended with some delay, will not fail to receive His Ex- cellency's serious and deliberate consideration. By order of His Excellency the Governor General and Counnander in Chief, F. VaFsel de Monoel, Adjutant (Jeneral M. 1'." The other order is as follows : " Office of Adjutant General of Militia, 12th December 1827.- General Order of Militia. — The Governor in Chief having for some time past occupied himself in considering reports of reviews by officers com- manding battalions of militia, has great satisfaction in again expressing his approba- tion of the general disposition and orderly conduct of this great national force. The reviews have been fully attended, and there are but <"ew instances in which the ^(i(). Q (| 4 Ciovcrnor The RigMt Iton. R. J. ff. Horton, M.P. ^ ' 1 July 1838. ii Mjwi n^ m i p. i 3ia MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J T*# 9m}u Hon. Cioveriior in Chief would think it at all necessary to express censure ; his Excellency, * ^ M ?"'""• tlicreforo conveys to all, and to each battalion, his thanks for their conduct, trusting , ■ ^ that the next summer he shall find no cause to repeat the only disa}»reeablc part I luly iSil. o' established prior to the coMiiiii'Hl, which JIh Majc.stif has been most gracioiis/j/ pleased to order to be ap]iltid towards d(;/'rai/ing the civil e.rpenses of the province." The Committee will not hciiitate to admit that an expression, on the part of the Crown, that orders have been graciously given to apply the territorial revenue towards defraying the civil cxpcuM'S of the province, caiuiot, in reason or in justice, be considered to be a gift to the Legislature, t)y which the Legislature obtains the right of appropriation. I would beg leave to lay bctbre the Committee, in illustration of this distinction between applying the local revenues at the discretion and under the sanction of Mis Majesty's ( ioverinneut for the benefit of the colonies, and the surrendering them to the colonies for their absolute iippro|)riation, by the following letter, which was addressed by Lord llathurtt, lis a circular letter to the colonies having local legislatures, on the 8th of October l8'J,'5, and which appears to me to express most clearly the reasons why an Qiiiiuul vote of the ('ivil List is less preterable to a more permanent ariungeinent. \ " Downing-street, 8th October 1825. — Sir, — You are aware that ir- uU discussions which of late years have taken place in Parliament on the subject of the Colonial K^ttiumles, it has been objected that the Nortli American colonies ougiit to take upon themselves thosc! permanent and nt;cessary expenses of their civil government which have hitherto been charged upon ti' uilli the wishes of (iovernmciit. I also deferred pressing this point until Paiiia- liieiit has actually removed those restrictions to which the commerce of the colonies had hitherto been subject ; becaii>>e, though it might not have appeared unreason- Hblu to Imvu made the exttusiun ot a policy so liberal towards the colonists, in some iiicasuic ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 313 m pse Ice measure dependent upon their assuming upon a just footing tho charges of their own Government, yet I felt it a more pleasing course, (and one ' hich I trusted Mould be found not less effectual,) to rely rather upon the disposition of His Majesty's subjects in the colonies to evince a just sense of these advantages after they should nave been conferred u|]on them, than to have attempted tu induce them to a compliance with the proposition by any promise of consequent concession and advantage, liy the measures which Parliament has recently adopted the restrictions I have referred to are removed, and the colonies now enjoy, under the protection of His Majesty, the same freedom of trade with the parent state and with foreign countries as if they constituted, in fact, integral parts of the United Kingdoms. Such a state of things, it is confidently hoped, cannot fail to produce an increase of prosperity that will either enable the colonists to bear the charge of the Civil Government » ithout necessity for imposing additional taxes, or will make the increased tii\es, which it may be necessary fur a time to provide, less burtheii'* some than tl.ose which they are now obliged to sustain. I have had frequent occasion to regret tiie inconvenient consequences which have arisen ip some of His Majesty's colonies, from the practice of providing by an annual vote for those charges of the Civil Government which arc in their nature permanent, and which therefore ought not. con- sistently with those principles of the constiiulioii common both to the United Kingdom and to the colonies, to be classed with those contingencies of the public service which, being necessarily fluctuating, may he fitly provided for as the occasion u[>pears to demand. In point of fact, the necessity of an annual vote for the main- tenance of a fixed and permanent establishment is only calculated to embarrass the public service, and to disturb the harmony which ought to exist among the different branches of the Legislature ; 't even tends to impair that confidence between tlie Government and the inhabitants of a colony, which is equally necessary to the just support of the former and to the happiness and prosperity of the latter. In the practical execution of this proposition, it cannot fail to be satisfactory to the Legis- lature to observe, that it is not intended that the provincial revenues should be charged with any excess beyond the long established and ordinary charges, unless a further increase should by them be deemed expedient. The charges of which the present estimate consists being all strictly of a permanent description, I should propose that the Act, which will be necessary to make provision for their assumption by the colony, should continue in operation for the space often years. The cordial adoption of this pro|)osition on the part of the Legislature cannot fail to draw still closer the ties which so happily subsist between the mother country and her depend- encies, and to induce a favourable disposition on her part to apply her capital for colonial purposes. And when it is considered how heavy an expenditure is neces- sarily incurred by Great Dritain in the military defences of her colonics, it would sceiu unreasonable, under present circumstances, to question the readiness of the latter to provide in a proper manner for the necessary charge of their civil govern- ment. You will explain in the fullest manner to the Legislature, in the course of tlie next session, the expectations of His Majesty's Government upon this subject, and you will at the same time inform them, that whatever funds may be raised or received within the province, such funds not being under the control of tiie Legis- lature, will be appropriated fur the benefit of tiie province, at tiic discretion and under the sanction of His Majesty's Government." Ihe RitHl Him. R. J. IV. H01I0H, M.P. I July i8a8. Mart is, 1.5* die Jtttii 1828. John Neilsoii, Eiquirc, agiiu cilled in ; an I Examined. A PETITION, signed by yourself, 1). D. Vigcr and Austin Cuvillier, has been referred to this Committee ; from wiiich they perceive that since you left Lower Canada the Government of that colony lias comniilted certain other acts of which you complain ; the Committee are desirous of hearing any thing you have to say in support or explanation of your complaints?— 1 know nothing of what has occurred in Lower Canada since my departure but by private letters" and newspapers, and eertain resolutions that have been forwarded to Messrs. Viger, Cuvillier and myself, containing complaints, to be added to those that were contained in the Petition pre- 569- K >■ sen led John Neiltnn, Esq. 15 July 1828. 314 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE llEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ./oAn KtUton, sented to the House of Coinmuns some tiin<^ ago. Those Kesolutions arc now in my **?• possession. ' ' IIuvc the goodness to deliver them in. — • 15 July 1818. [7'A • witness delivered in the following Papers .] PROVINCE OF LOWER CANADA. AT a meeting of Landholders and other Proprietors, composing the committees appointed at the general meetingH of proprietors held for the purpose of petitioning liiit MojeHty and both Houseit of Parliament against the present administration of the Pruvincinl (iovernmont, •nd for furthering the said Petitions, assembled nt the House of l^uis Roy Portelance, esq. in the City of Montreal, 17th April iSaH ;— Present, — Fmncois Ant. Larocque, esq. in the Chair ; — Members of the Committee of Mon- treal : Fmn' Ant. Larocquc, the Honourable P. D. Debartzch, Member of the Legislative Council ; Louis Roy Portelance, James Leslie, Robert Nelson, Jnlcs Qiiesnel, F. VV. Des- rivieres, Hertel de Rouvillc, Jo. Waller, Ch' F. Roy, Fran' Picnid, lloch de St. Ours. F. A. Quesnel, F. Peltier, jun., L. M. Vigcr, D. Mondelet, M. F. Viilois, J. D. Uernard, Joseph Allard, Jos. Roy, Michel Viau, R. J. Kimbert, And. Pii|>ineau, Jos. Vulois, P. Richot, Ales. Berthefot, U. Desrochers, J. U. Lobunrdiiis, Louis Uiirrc, J(|. Hertrand, sen., Fran* Roy, Simon Valois, L. Bouton dit .Major, Friui' Desautels, Andre Jobin, A.N. Morin;— of the General Committee of the District of Three Rivers : J.E.Uesmouiin, J. Desfosses; — of the Committee of the County uf Richelieu: the said Honourable P. D. Debartitch, M. L. C, the said Roch de St. Ours, W. Nelson ; — of the County of York; Ignace Rnizenne, J. B. Dumouchelle and Alesis Demers;— of the County of Effingham ; the said Andr^ Papineau, Fran" Coyteux ;— of the County of Kent; R. Boucher de In Bruere, Rene Boileau, jun., Pierre Papineau, Aiigustin Blais, Jos. Bressc, Jos. Demers, Timothee Kimbert, P. C. B. de la Bruere ; — of the County of Surrey ; Joseph Allard ; — of the County of Bedford; the said Hertel de Rouville ;— of the County of Huntingdon ; Eustache Masson, esquires ; — THE following Resolutions having been severally read, were unanimously adopted : — Resolved, 1.— THAT it is expedient that the central committees of the district of Mon- treal and Three Rivers, a-id the other committees, and the people of the province in general, express their sentiments and opinions on the subject of certain acts of the administration of his Excellency the Earl of Dalhonsie, and on certain proceedings and decisions in the courts of justice in support of that administration, and tending to impair the liberties and security of the people, which acts, proceedings and decisions have taken place since the departure of the agents for the petitioners for Enu;land, and justify and support the charges contained in the Petitions to His Majesty and the two Houses of Parliament, transmitted by the said agents against his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, his administration, and the system cf government followed in this province. Resolved, 2, — That his Excellency and his administration have avowed, by public acts, their intention of destroying the liberty of the press, and to prevent public discussion of the acts of his administration, unless it should be favourable, and to iiiHict punishments for the exercise of the inherent right of British subjects to assemble and declare their upinion on acts of administration considered as unjust and oppressive, and to take the necessary steps to make known these acts, and their opinion thereon, by petition tu His Majesty and the autho- rities in England. Resolved, 3, — That in furtherance of these intentions, his Excellency, since the departure of the said agents, has, under colour of certain Militia Laws, of which the legal existence is contested, on strong grounds, insulted several respectable gentlemen, natives of the country, extensive landholders, and enjoying the general esteem; among others, Hertel De Rouville, R. Boucher de la Bruere, Francis Legendre, Ant. Poulin De Courviil, and J. M. Raymond, esquires, lieutenant-colonels and major of divisions uf militia in the districts of Montreal and Three Rivers, in depriving them of their rank for having assisted at meetings held in their respective counties for adopting resolutions on the subject of their grievancesi and petitioning thereon to His Majesty and both Hougcs of Parliament, against his Excellency and his administration of the government. Resolved, 4. — That his Excellency caused the first notice of their dismission to be given to these respectable individuals by publication in his official journals, without having at anv time previously communicated any complaints against them ; that the arbitrary order so pub- lished accused these loyal and respected individuals, in the face of the whole country, merely because they had acted with their fellow-subjects in a measure concerning the common weal of their native country, in which they have a deep and permanent interest, of " having been active instruments of a party hostile to His Majesty's Government;" thus resorting to bis official paper and the newspapers for defaming loyal and res[)ectablc subjects and the whole country ; and that the said order expressly avowed and acted upon the illegal, unconstitu- tional, dangerous and oppressive doctrine, that military subordination and respect fur military authority require that militia officers and militia-men should not participate in public meet- ings, in a country where every proprietor from the a';e of 18 to Co is a militia-man, and all tbc nrele inhabitants of that age are militia-men ; thus attempting to prohibit the inhabitants of of an CO P« m 01 le tc t> SI fti s t a ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 315 vy nt. ce. pn- Ive 7tf*(i tftilm, iSll. of the conntry from all diicuRiiion of public affairs and the miiiconduct of the adminiDtrfttion, and from petitioning; the Kinfr and Parliament ; virtually iiubjectin)( them to martial law. KfHolved, 5. — That two ineetin^rK of landholderM iind other proprietor*, composing the ^ cnmmitteeH of petitioners in the district of Three Rivers, named at a f^uneral meeting of ij July petitionerg to further their Petition against his Excellency and hiH adminiHtration, and other matters connected therewith, for the mformation of their agents, passed certain resolutions on the subject of the said defamatory and unconstitutional order so published by his Excel- lency, which Kuid resolutions contained in substance, that the said individuals so attempted to be disgrnced and insulted had lost nothing in the esteem of their fellow-citizens ; that the attack made by his Hxcellfncy on their loyalty and honour was unmerited ; one of the said committees having also expressed their opinion that those who would accept of the situations of which these respectable individuals had been thus deprived could not be con- sidered as friends of their country ; which said resolutions were ordered to be transmitted to the agents of the petitioners, to obtain the recall of his Excellency and a change in the administration of iIir government. Resolved, (i. — That these resolutions so taken in defence of the reputation of individuals attacked by a public document, and put into general circulation by the journals of the adn'iinistration, were also published in the Quebec Gazette by order of the said committees, and signed by the secretaries, Charles Mondelet and Ant. Z^phirin Leblanc, esquires. Resolved, 7.— That in the last term of His Majesty's Court of King's Bench for the district of Quebec, James Stuart, esquire. His Majesty's Attorney-general for the said province, who is also one of the executive councillors for the said province, and one of the adviners of the present administration, and a violent opponent of the Representative Assembly of the province, presented to the grand jury five bills of indictment against the said Quebec Gazette, for puolications relating solely to public measures in the said province ; two of which were for publishing the said resolutions ; four of which bills, including tlie two for publishing the said resolutions were found by the grand jury: aud the said Attorney-general also presented two bills against the said Charles Mondelet, esquire, one of which was for having signed and communicated the said resolutions, and the other for having addressed to his Excellency a letter on the dismission of the said Charles Mondelet from the militia, which said bills were also found by the grand jury. Resolved, 8. — That a criminal term of the said court had just then been held at Three Rivers, where the said Charles Mondelet resides, and where the acts of which he was accused, however innocent and praiseworthy they may be, were committed ; that the said Attorney- ?'eneral might and ougnt to have proceeded against him at Three Rivers, but instead of ollowing this equitable and legal mode of proceeding, he, for the purpose of better succeeding in his designs against the said Charles Mondelet, and in a vexatory and oppressive manner, proceeded against him at Quebec, to which place he also compelled five other individuals to attend as witnesses, at the distance of 90 miles from their homes, and in another district, and at a time when it was dangerous to travel, when the lives of several of these witnesses were actually put in peril ; when Mr. Mondelet was withdrawn from the most busy time of his profession as an advocate : that the compelling an individual to answer for a simple misdemeanour out of his district, where he might have been accused and judged, and com- pelling him to appear 90 miles from his residence, is an arbitrary act, tending to vex and injure His Majesty's subjects who are not the devoted instruments of the present adminis- tration. Resolved, 9. — That the said Attorney-general who laid the said bills before the grand jury at Quebec, is nn executive councillor, and a component part of the administration which is complained of by the petitions of the people of the province; that the Chief Justice of the province, Jonathan Sewell, esquire, presiding in the said Court of King's Bench at Quebec, before whom these individuals are to be tried, is also an executive coun- cillor, and a principal adviser of the present administration ; that the sheriffs, who arbitrarily empannel the juries in this province, are ofticcrs depending entirely on the pleasure of the administration for the enjoyment of their lucrative ofhccs; and that the sheriff for the di.striet of Quebec is the son of the said Chief Justice so presiding, and zealous in the support of the administration, the suppression of complaints against it, and preventing them from being made known. Resolved, 10. — That the influence of the foregoing circumstances are sufficiently proved by the conipoisition of the aforesaid i;raii(l jury, of which several members hold offices during pleasure, and of which 14, or more, were drawn from the small party which is violently opposed to the general opinion of the country, and are impelled by the same passions and opinions as the executive authority; and that all the said grand jurors for the district of Quebec, with the exception of one, were siunmoned J'rom the City of Quebec alone. Resolved, 1 1 . — That in the Court of Oyer and Terminer, held for the district of Montreal in the month of November last, and in the term of the Criiiiinal Court for the said district, held in March following, three bills of inilictnient for libel were returned by the grand jury against Jocelyn Waller, es(|uire, and Ludu;er Uiiveniay ; and one aguinst James Lane, for innocent, and in the o|)inioii of this conmiittcc, praiseworthy publications; being all articles on the public utlnirs oC this province, and the niiscoixluct of the provincial administration ; entirely free from an ihiiig prejudicial to the laws or to public order, but on the contrary, replete with unif'oi.a sentiments of loyalty and attachment to His Majesty's Government ; and that the said publications have been made the subject of coniplaint on the part of the Attorney-general, only because they conlainod the free, le^al and constitutional expression of .ijtjg. " R r 2 the JqU NtiUon, 15 July i8a8. 316 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE the opinion of the great majority of the people of the province on the public meaHuren of tha adminintrotion ; and thut the Nsid piiblicationii, as well ai the aforeiaid reiolutionft adoptvd in the dintrict of Three Uivrm, are not diflcrent in iiubitaiice from the niutter» of com- plaint against the present adminiHtration contained in the I'etition of Hy.oou of IIIh Majesty 'n itubjecta in thia provinrv, forwiirdcd, to be laid before Ilia Mujenty and the Imperial Parliament. Rciolvet« niid the laws of the Imperial Parliament, and tending to the iiuhversion of the eMtahlinhcd (-onNtitiitiun ; that similar writing* have bIho lieun iniued from otliiT premtea patronized by tho administration, the whole under the eye of the said Att(irn«y-|reneral, who has suH'ered them to proceed unnoticed, while ho pro- Nt'cuteH ollii-.ially, with gtvat warmth, expressions on the part of the country unfavourable to the administration of the government. Resolvi'd, 'JO.— That this conduct on the part of tho Attorney-f:;eneral is equivalent to a full proloction by the udministratioii and the courts of justice to whutsovvei opinions, caluninii's uiid iuNiillH the nartizans of the present administration may publish in its organs, and that the conviction is becntninp; iiniverHal on the part of the iniiubitants of the province, that the false and abusive writings of which these papers are the vehicles, counsellir ' and exciting to the subversion of the social order, the institutions and constitutional privileges of the people, are nothing but the expression of the opinion and wishes of the present admi- nistration, its chief, and nit'nibers ; and that the people, the public boilies, and tfie individual* so insulted and vilifiril can hope for no redress within this province from the courts of jus- tice, the said AMntiiey-general and other officers equally dependent on the administmtion, being the soli' channels throiiirh which an attempt could be made to obtain it. Resolved, qi. — That tlie saii). i^ '■ ;] nnd JuHh NtitioH, I j July i8ll. Elf. 15 July iS'iS. 318 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE tnd proUctioD of th« ReprcMotativ* Body, in violation of tha Act of the Uritith PkiliMnant. 31 Om. 3> c- n> : Tho iiiiturticiviicy of |Hiitlic upiniuii to ri!>trniii n liottilo ailniiiiiiitrutlun, whicit hu corru))t«il uiiJ iiHiir|ii'(l ull thu |H)wvi'ii uf the law iiiiil tlu: lUii^iHlrHuy : — Uavk nlitriufd llie t'oiiiitry, itiul krjit it m 11 nUIu of griMl ii^ibiliuii, iiu(lt>r tin' iii(imitto conviction of itH diiiiKt-rou* iiiid uii^trntecli'il Htiitf, rx|ii)Mi'il to tlio immtioiiit of 11 Hinall hut exaapt-ratvd prirty, iiinl lui (■xaHpcnili'd udininixtrutiou bri'iitliinu; V(.'n^(■ull(:e. Tlml tin- |i«r- venion of th« noble inititution of juriuN to the |iur)i0M«i« of jiiiHition, leuvuH thu inhabitant* of the province without mtcurity for tlieir pemu' * and property. Revolved, 37. — Thiit thi' country cannot be rcittored to a nenie of lecurity and to quiet, but when Ilia Excellency the Earl of UalhouHie Rhall have been revullcd from hii« govern- ment, and hie ndminiilration changed ; when the placi'i of the nreiient Atturnvy-Kuneral, Jamot Stuart, require, and tho preitent Solicitor-general, Charles Uichard Ouden, eiinuire, ■hall be tilled by other pereonii ; and the RepreNentative Ro«r- formance of his duty as a private? — The law says that every able bodied nmii irorti 1 8 to (io is bound to serve in the militia ; and if he is not an officer, or exem|>t by law, he must serve us a private. How is that enforced r — liy imposing fines for non-attendance ; there is a cont«*t now in tlie courts of justice respecting tiie law; they are prosecuting tlie persuni who exacted the lines under the old ordinances for damages. Arc the fines heavy ? — The fines by the laws that existed were not heavy j btit those by the ordinances of tiie Legislative Council of 1 787, which the Governor pretends to be in force, arc rather heavy ; and what is worse, they are exacted by the sentence ol' a court-martial, instead of being exacted in a civil court. Do you know any thing of the correspondence that took place between MonNieur Parunt and Narcisse Duchesney, esq., lieutenant-colonel? — I have seen it in titfl iiewspa|)ers. Do you know the parties? — I do. [A newspaper is handed to the witness.] Is that the newspaper you allude to ? — In this paper is a translation, the originiil of which I have read in the French, of tlic correspondence between M. Ducheitnny and Mr. Parant, who was an ensign in the militia of Beauport ; these letter* ure correct translations of the originals I have seen in French. [The same were delivered in, and are as follows :] " To Narcisse Duchesney, Esquire, Lieutenant-Colonel, &c. &c. " Beauport, 2Rih January iHsH, " Colonel ! " Under the administration of a man never to be forgotten, and worthy of the love of all };oo(l and loyal subjects, 1 was honoured by being considered worthy of an ttiiNign'M commission. 5(i9- '^ "^ 4 " flMl «»f; If Jttijr llil. Join Niilton, *Etq. 15 July 1838. ..lao MINUTES OF EVIDENCIi IJEI'OtlE SELECT COMMITl'EE " But at this period, when beint( a uoiniiiiNitiotiiiil tnititia-ninti prevents one from beins a citizen, when persons a thousand tiuu>N imirtt rtiNpoctitblu than I am have been displaced, ' and others, strangers and unknown, hnvu btn'ii Nulmtitutod in their place, I would consider myself dishonoured if I retained a cuiniuiNHigii which hnit nothing but what is degrading in my eyes. " However honoured I might be when I r*t('i Karl of Ualhnusic, deserve the confi- dence and the respect of all llieir fellow vitm'wn, Resolved, 2. — That this Comniitteu has Itmrnrd by llin Militia General Order of the 3 1st instant, that his Excellency George K'ui of tJullioiinic has disniisHtd from the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the militiu thesu two gi'ittlruini, iilh'tiiiig, " thnt they have shown themselves active agents of a parl^ hoM(ili< to irii* Miijcuty's fliivernnient." Resolved, 3. — That in the opinion of (his I'onitiiitlce, that Hllcgation on the part of his Excellency is entirely unfounded. Resolved, 4. — That consequently this eoniinitleti Im of opinion, that these dismissals cannot prejudice the resnectability of tiuiNi* who are the objevts of them. Resolved, 5. — That tne following uildrtWN to MoMfirs. Francois l,egemlre and Antonie Pouhn de Courval, be adopted by this couiniillt'i', utid that u special committee, composed of four members, to wit, Meusrs. Jean UoumI, JoMciih t)iilH)rd Lafontainc, Etienne Leblaiir, and Jean Defosses, do take muusures for hitviiig llie snniu presented to Messrs. Legendre and Courval. (A true KxtrHCi.) {'hill If » MitiiikktA o . • „ A. T.I Atom, j ^•■■^■•"'^"e''- ARE you certain the proscciition wuh for the Niniplf insertion of those Resolu- tions, or did any remarks accompany tlitim f \ ciifinot speuk very correcl'y as *o what occurred ; but I know this is uw i)f th(t lutichs indicted in tiie hill presented by the attorney-general ; it was piiblisliud in I'nMich, this is a translation of that article ; there are eight or ten, 01 pii'liupn twelve hills brought forward against those ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 321 those presses I have mentioned ; and the^ a. J- ^.^^^^^^^^^^^^^ „ppea/and be on^o^i^e^^^l^^ ^ 1 believe I could furnish ^:^^^tZ^^^^^i:^:^£:^ty te.pe.te du.n, the 'Has the lanRuase o the go-^"^ .uTbeS verrviolenUo ^holeof this time?-No, by no means. /' h^» ^^^^^^^ „„d soon after, that Cuite natural when part.es run ^'S^ ^^ ^™™ ■„, offences connected with i::^.:^lS:::£'ZZ^^:^^^^ ^ho ..e o^ences, and found, , , , Mr. John Neiiton. 15 July 1818. ■,(>p. Sj' .<)aa APPENDIX TO KEPORT FROM SLLECT COMMITTEE LIST OF APPENDIX. !i N* 1.— PETITION of His Majesty's dutiful and loyal Subjects, of P.ritish birth or descent, InhabiiRiits of the Townships of Dunham, and other Townships and Places situate in the Province of Lower Canada - - - - ?• 323 N' 2.— LOWER CANADA PETITIONS; Districts of Quebec, Montreal, and Three Rivers p. 326 N° 3. — PETITION of Inhabitants of British birth and descent, now residing in Townships and Places situated on the South East side of the Hiver St. Lawrence, in the Province of Lower Canada --------p. 336 N* 4. — INDENTURE for conveying a certain Tract of Land in the County of Mont};o- niery, now the County of Herkimer ------ p. 337 N- 5.— LETTERS PATENT to Robert Gilbert Livingston, Township No. 40, in Totten and Crossfield's Purchase, in 1772, containing 25,200 Acres - p. 339 N» 6.— CONVEYANCE for 38,900 Acres of Land, in the Counties of Washington and Clinton, in the State of New York; July J 769 - . . - ibid. N" 7.— POPULATION of Lower Canada p. 341 JJ» 8. — RESOLUTIONS relative to the appropriation of the Clergy Reserves, passed by the Commons House of Assembly ol Upper Canada, 1826 - - p. 343 N« 9.— FOURTH ARTICLE of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, concluded between the Kings of Great Britain and France on the loth if February in the Year 1763 ."----------- ibid. No 10.— PROCLAMATION of the King of Great Britain, dated 7th October 1763 ?• 344 N* II.— PROCLAMATION of Sir Alured Clarke, Lieutenant Governor of Canada, dated 7th May 1 702 - p. 346 N» 12. — ACT to provide for increasing the Representation of the Commons of the Province of Upper Canada ; 7th March 1820 - . - - p. 349 N* 13.— THE CHARTER of the University of King's College at York in Upper Canada ; dated 15th March 1827 - - - p. 350 N' 14. — OPINION of His Majesty's Law Officers, relative to the Clergy Reserves; dated 15th November 1819- - - - - - - - [>■ 353 N« 15. — OPINION of the Law Officers of the Crown, as to the right of the Crown to appropriate the Revenue raised under the Act of 1770, independent of the Legislative Assembly ----p. 354 N" 16. — PETITION from Canada, praying that the Presbyterian Clergy umy participate in the Reserves set apart for the Protestant Clergy - - - p- 355 N* 17. — PETITION from Inhabitants of Quebec in favour of the Union of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada --.-.-- p. 356 N» 18*— PETITION of Merchants and others connected with the Canadas; 17th May 1828 p. 357 ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 333 APPENDIX. Appendix, N" 1. To the Honourable the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, representing the Coininons of N" 1. the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in rnrliainent asseiniiled. Pt-litlon of the The PETITION of the Subscribers, His Majesty's dutiful and loyal Subjects, of British Ii,>httbitanu of the birth or descent. Inhabitants of the Townships of Dunham, Stanbridge, St. Armand, ^"wnsl'ipsof Dun- Sutton. Potton, Stpnstend, Barnston, Barford, Hereford, Farnlmin, Broine, Bolton, •>*■">*<:•"> l^^wef Hatley, Conipton, Clifton, Granby, Shefford, Stukely, Orford, Asrott, Eaton, New- v. port. Bury, Hampden, Milton, Uoxton, Durham, Melborne, Windsor, Shipton, Stoke, Dudswell, Simpson, Kingsey, Grantham, Wickham, Wendover, Brompton, and other Townships and Places situate in the Province of Lower Canada ; Humbly showeth, THAT Your Petitioners have learnt with the most henrtfelt satisfaction and the most pro- found gratitude, that a Bill was introduced into the Honourable the House of Commons, at the last session of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, for uniting the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada under one Legislature; a measure to which the inhabitants of the Townships of I^ower Canada look forward as the only effectual means of terminating the difficulties and troubles under which they have laboured in times past, and of prevent- ing the evils with which a continuation of the present state of things would threaten them for the time to come. That the situation of the inhabitants of the Townships is different from that of any other portion of the British empire, and is likely to prove mo^il unfortunate and disastrous for themselves and their posterity, unless the legislative aid of the land of their ancestors be extended to relieve them; as will be briefly shown in the following statement: — ^The pro- vince of Lower Canada, according to its present condition, may be separated into two parts; viz.: first, the Seigniories, or French Lower Canada, which comprehends a narrow tract of land on each side of the river St. Lawrence, van'ing in breath from ten to forty miles; and secondly, the Townships, or English Lower Canada, which comprehends tht remainder of the province, and is more extensive, and capable of containing a far greater population than the Seigniories, or French Lower Canada. The seignorial part of Lower Canada, whose population may be considered as about half filled up, is inhabited chiefly by Canadians, whose origin and lanui'age are French ; but contains, besides these, a population of about 40,000 inhabitants of British origin. The Townships, or English Lower Canada, are peopled KhoUy by inhabitants of British birth and descent, and American loyalists, amounting at present to about 40,000 souls, who have no other language than that of their British ancestors, who inhabit lands granted under the British tenure of free and common Boccage, who have a Protestant clergy, for whose maintenance a portion of those lands are set apart, and who, notwithstanding, are subjected to French laws, (the custom of Paris,) of which they know nothing, compiled in a language with which they are unacquainted. In addition to the evil of subjection la foreign laws in a foreign language, the Town- ships, or English Lower Canada, labour under the further ditficulty of hr^ving no courts within iheir own limits, for the administration even of those foreign laws, but arc compelled, for the most trifling legal redress, to rt'sort to the courts established at the cities of Quebec, Montreal, or Three Rivers, in seignorial Canada, at a distance frequently from 100 to 150 miles, through a country where the travelling, by rca^on of the iiiudequai'y of the laws regarding communications, is frequently dithcult and dangerous; and to complete the measure of their grievances, the Townships arc de facto without any repiesentation what- ever in the Provincial House of Assembly in Lower Canad.'i. Their complaints to the I'rovincial Assembly have been always treated with contempt or iuditVereiice; nor can your Petitioners account for their being placed, as it were, almost out of the pale of civil government, by a neglect bii dilVcrtiit fiom the cnuise piirsiuil in the L.gislaturcs of other British provinces, excent uii the supposition that tlic Fronch Canadian Uousie of Assembly has not been desirous tliat emignmts from Britain or of British origin should have i.idiicc- nients to seek an asylum or become sett.ers in Lower Canada. If such indeed ivere the object, it has not failed of parti:>l success; us of the many thousand emigrants w!u>, within the last few years, have arrived from Great Britain, scarcely 1,000 have bctded in the Townships of Lower Canada ; but great numbers of them have gone into the United Stales, ronsidering, possibly, that they should there lind iliem-ielvcs in a less Ibieigu country than ,s6i^. S s 3 in Canada. 304 AI'PIiNDlX TO REPORT FROM SELECT CoMMITTEE !il N» 1. in thin British colony iiiulcr its present circumstances, nnd under the foreign aspect of the Petition of the representative lirnnch of its Ltgislulure. Inhabitants of the Your I'etitioncrs will not ■ nhugp upon the gfnernl statement they have (iiveii of their Townships of Dun. condition, by cnterin/; into llie dclail of the numerous iinrdships nnd (liiheullieH with haiu, &c. in Lower which tliey liave liad to confnd, altJiough seiisihic that the recital would cull forth corn- Canada. miKerntiun. They will content themselves with stating, timt cs settlements under these V ^ / English tenures have been eouimeneed, as immense tracts still remain to be settled, nnd ai the populaiioi) of Lower Canada is triHing compared to the amount which it is capable of attaining, there can be no sound reason for rearing up any portion of the province so as, at its mnturity, to constitute a natioti of foreigners, or lor continuitig a system calcu- lated to deter Uriions and their descendants from settling upon the waste lands of the Croivn. In the management of colonies, as in the management of youth, prudence would nial duty and alluginnec, but also dangerous to the future safety of the adjoining colonics, and subversive ol ihi; rights of all the inhabitants of the Townships, as well as of all the Etiglisli settled in seignorial Canada, through whose hands the entire trade with the mother country it conducted. Your Petitioners, the inhabitants of English Lower Canada, had always flattered tlietii- selves that no laws would be imposed or continued on that portion of the country, having a tendcncv to compel them to resemble a foreign nation, and to deprive them oi' the clin- racieristics of their British origin ; and their coiiKdencc on this occasion was incrensed by their recollection of the promises of his late Majesty, to give English laws to his suhjevtit settling in Canada, and by the exception (an exception never yet enforced in prurtice) contained in the Quebec Act of 1774, declaring that the provisions of that Ait, estahlNhing French laws, " should not extend to lands to be thereafter granted in free and cnmnioii soccage," a tenure which exists exclusively in the 'I'ownships. Your Petitioners felt, and they trust it is a feeling which cannot fail to meet with sym- pathy in the hearts of their countrymen, and the countrymen of their anccsturs in Britain, that the knowledge of their native English language ought to be sutHeicnr to enable tlieiii to learn their rights and to perform their duties as faithful subjects, while they resided under British tenures in what is, at least in name, a British colony. They felt that onu great and glorious object of nations rearing up and protecting colonies, must be the cstu- blishmeiit of a people who should perpetuate in after ages tlie honoured reHentblance of the parent state; and they felt that it could neither be consistent with the dignity nor (hi) interests of Great Britain, to rear up a colony to be hereafter in language mid in laws a representative of France, while France was exempted from all the expense of its protec- tion. They consideretl the Townships of Lower Canada, now inhabited solely by si'tllers of British birth and origin, speaking only the English language, and having a Proicntmit clergy upon whom one seventh of the land is bestowed, as possessing a sacred claim u|ioii the British Government lor protection, against the painful and humiliating prospciM, that their posterity might be doomed to acquire the language and assume the i.iaiiners ami cha- racter of n foreign people. And they also considered tiiat the right ot the 'I'owmliips to representation in the Provincial Assembly would not have been withheld from ihi'iii in any otner British colony, nor perhaps even here, had not their language and descent been British. Your Petitioners would gladly limit their solicitations to one point — that of being allowed a representation in the I'rovincial I'arliament, proportioned to the coiiietiiienre and growing importance of the extensive districts they inhabit — if a sober view ol their future safety would permit them to continc themselves to that object ; but it is possible that even this sacred and iaestimahle privilege might, when accorded, be deprived of inuell of its advantage and ei!ieicncy towards procuring the setllenieiit of the wild laiiiU by emigrants from Britain, in consequence of the iiiHueiice of the majority of French Cana- dians, wiiich would still be found in the House of Assembly of Lower I'anada, who, in tho midst of professions I'f attachment to the mother country, seek to preserve themselves a separate and s no initiative or deliberative voice in the enactments ; nor indeed can human wisdom be adequate to devise such a system of revenue upon imports, while the provinces shall remain separate, as will not give unfair and unequal advantages to the one or the other, and of necessity produce irritation and eniuity. Your Petitioners further humbly state, thai the French Canadians have been long auniitted to the enjoyment of the freedom and the rights of British subjects, rights far more extensive than the utmost they could have hoped for had they continued colonists of France : but rights and duties are reciprocal ; wherever the former exist, the latter are obligatory , anifwhile the freedom and protection of Britain are bestowed upon Canadians, it can neither be unfair nor ungenerous to require in return the existence of such an amended Constitution as shall encourage a portion of our brethren from Britain to establish themselves and their posterity upon the Crown lands in Lower Canada. From a union of the provinces, no individual could reasontdily complain of injury, no right would be taken away, no just pretensions would be set aside, and even no prejudice would be molested, save only such as might be found in those who cherish visionary views of the future existence of u Gallo-C'anadian nation, which the union would at once and for evei dispel. To discover with ceitainty what are the real feelings which excite opposidoii lo the union (however diversified the pretexts as>igiicd may be), it would only be requisite to consider, whether, if the population were all of the same origin in provinces situated as the Canadas are with respect to each other, any objections to the meiisure would be made ? The answer is obvious ; there would be none. And if the real moiives of opposition on the part of our French Canadian fellow subjects, whether openly avowed or speciously disguised, arise from the intent ion of coiititiiiing or constituting a separate people, which would perpetuate among us the disastrous national distinctions of English and French, they form the strongest possible reasons in favour of the union. Your Petitioners had humbly hoped that the guardian care of the parent slate would, under Providence, secure her colonies in this part uf the globe from the ultimate danger of those national animosities and distinc- tions which have existed for so many ages, and provei' such fertile sources of evil to Britons in Europe. And entertaining, as they do, the most perfect confidence thai the salutary ,569. S s 3 niPinure m .spw^ $1A APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE N'l. Pttition ofthd Inlitbltknuof ihff Tuwii>lii|iii ul Dun- ham, dec. in Luwvr Ctniidii. rneanure nf (la* union of the Cinadas would in the must equitable and beneficial manner MOure llieir poiierity from the evils they have mentioned, they humbly conceive that the lioiiimi, UK \M'II iH l\w hninaiiity of ihc mother country, requires it to be effected while it is yt't fMniiy priiciicuhli', beloro ilit popuiitiion bIkiII be lormidable in numbers, nnd before cunlinually rccurrni); exasperations sUall have rendered animosity bitter and hereditary. Your iVtilioncrs iherelorc uio»t humbly pray that an Act be passed to authorize the Provinuial Executive Government to divide the Townships of Lower Canada into counties, entitled to elect members, so at. equitably to provide for the interests of their future popu- lutloii ncciirdiiiK to the extent r f their territory, and also to unite tlie provinces of Upper •ind Lower Canada under one '^gislature, in such manner as may allow of representation proportioned in some measui-e to territorial extent, which thereby will provide for the growiiif^ state of the country, nnd also of necessity be ultimately proportioned to wealth and population. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, 8ic. The foregoing Petition was transmitted from the Townships in 1823, and signed almost unanimously by all the heads of families in the Townships ; the number of (ignatiires exceitded 10,000. This Petition, together with others, even from the Hcigniories of Liwer Canada, as well as from Upper Canada, in favour of the union of the* two provinces, can be now produced, if required. and of a V we brai indi con ber: mei pro per ne; nbi im{ fur Appendix, N* 2. PETITION of the Counties in the District of Quebec ; and of the County of Warwicic, District of Montreal. To the KING'S Most Excellent Majesty : May it piensc your Majesty, ]!}•), WE Your Majesty's faithful and loyal subjects, inhabitants of your province of Lower Lower Canada P«- C'0"i<''>i mo"' humbly supplicate your Majesty to receive graciously this our humble petition, titions: Distrietiof which we now lay at the foot of your imperial throne, with hearts full of gratitude and Quebec, &u, inviolnhli* attachment to your august Pc-soii and your Majesty's paternal Government. Ainonunt the numerous benefits for wiilch the inhabitants of Lower Canada are indebted to your Majesty's Governnienr, there is none that they more highly prize than the invaluable Constitution granted to this province by the Act of the Parliament of Great Britain, passed in the ,iist year of the reign of our beloved Sovereign, your august Father, of ever-revered nifinory. Called by lliat Act to the full enjoyment of British constitutional liberty, and become tlic di'tioHitnries of our own rights, under the protection of the mother country, wo eon- trncled the solrum obligation of preserving inviolate this sncnd deposit, and of traiisniitting il to our descendants, such as it was confided to us by the great men who then presided over the destinies of your powerful and glorious empire. Deeply impressed with a sense of ihis obligation, alarmed by the abuses wiiich liiivc crept into the ndininiatrntion of the government of this province, and suH'tring under liie evils which Weigh on its inhabitants, we entertained an anxious hope that llie House of Asseniblv, in the sessiim of the Provincial Parliament, called for the dispatch of business on the solh November Inst, would take into consideration the state of the province, and adopt efficacious mensures to obtain the remedy and removal of these abuses and evils. We hud a sure reliance on the well-iricd loyalty and disinterested zeal of our repiesentutives ; but we have had the mortification of seeing our hopes frustrated by the refusal on the jiart ot liis Excel- lency the Oovernor-in-Chief to approve the Speaker elected by the Assembly, and by the priMilnmation of the 22d of the same month of November, proroguing the I'rovincial Parlia- ment. In these eirenmslaiices, deprived of the services of our represenlnlives, suffering under great evils, and threatened with others still greater, we humbly implore the protection of your Majesty, the source of all grace and of all justice. The enlightened and patriotic statesmen who devised our Constitutional Act, and the Hritish Parliament by which it was granted, intended to bestow on us a mixed government, modelled on tiie constitution of the parent state; the opinions publicly expressed at the time in Parliament, and the Act itself, record the beneficent views of the Imperial Legislature; a Governor, a Legislative Council, and an Assembly, were to form three distinct and inde- pendent branches, representing the King, the Lords, and tlie Coinnioiis ; but llie mu: spirit of that fundamental law has not been observed in the coniposiiion of the Legislative Council ; lor the minority of its members consisting of persons whose principal resources for the sup- port of themselves and their families arc the salaries, eiiioliiinents and fees derived from oliiccM which tliev hold during pleasure, they are interested in mainlainiiig and increasing the salaries, emoluments, and fees of public officers paid by the people, and also in sup- porting divers abuses favourable to persons holding ofliccs. The Legislative Council, l)y these means, is in eH'ect the executive power, under a different name, and the Provincial Legislature is, in truth, reduced to two branches, a Governor and an Assembly ; leaving the province witliout the benefit of the intermediate branch, us intended by the aforesaid Act ; and ON THE CIVIL GOVRRNMENT OF CANADA. S»7 and from this first ami capiinl abuse have resulted, and still continue to result, a multitude N« 3. of abuses, and the impossibility of procuring H remedy. I r d P We acknowledge that the Legislative Council ougnt to be independent ; and if it were, ^tlon" Diltriotiaf we should not be entitled to complain to your Majesty of the repeated refusals of that Quebec & brnncli to proceed u\ton various bills sent up by the Assembly, howsoever useful and even ' indispensable they might be; but considering these refusals as the natural result of the composition of that body, and of the state of dependence in which the majority of its mem> bers are placed, we are compelled to consider its acts as the acts of the bxecutive Govern- ment ; and we most humbly represent to your Majesty, that the Legislative Council of this province, the majority of which is composed of executive councillors, jud{res, and other persons depcndt'Ut on the Executive, have, year after year, rejected several bills, refused and neglected to proceed on several other bills sent up by the Assembly, for the remedy of abuses, for encouraging education, promoting the general convenience of the subject, the improvement of the country, for increasing the security of persons and property, and furthering the coiimion welfare and prosperity of the province: particularly — Various annual bills granting the necessary sums for all the expenses of the civil government of the province, but regulating and setting limits to the expenditure. For affording a legal recourse to the subject having claims against the Provincial Government. Tor regulating certain fees and offices. For euiibling the inhabitants of the towns to have a voice in the managemeitt of their local concerns, and u check on the expenditure of monies levied upon them by assessment. For facilitating the administration of justice throughout the province, for qualifying and regulating the formation of juries, and introducing jury trials in the country parts, and diminishing the expenses occasioned by the distance of suitora from the present seats of justice. For providing a new and sufficient gaol for the district of Montreal. For qualifying persons to serve in the office of justice of the peace. For continuing the Acts regulating the militia of the province. For increasing and apportioning the representation in the House of Assembly equally, among the qualifiecl electors throughout the province, particularly in the new settle- ments and townships. For the security of the public monies in the hands of His Majesty's receiver-general ia this province. For the independence of the judges, by securing to them their present salaries, upon their being commissioned during good behaviour, and for providing a tribunal for the trial of impeachments by the Assembly, so as to ensure u just responsibility ia high public oflicei'3 within the province. For appointing and providing for an authorized agent for the province, to reside in England, and attend to its interests there. It is with the most profound grief that we find ourselves compelled to represent to your Majesty, that during several years past the incomes derived from real estate in this provmce, the profits of trade and industry, and the wages of labour therein, have greatly diminished, and still continue to diininisii ; that under these circumstances it would not be equitable to impose taxes or new duties on its inhabiianis for the public uses; and that there exists no other resource which can reasonably be depended upon, to aid in the diflfusion of knowledge and facilitate the exertions of individual industry, than the proceeds of the existing revenues levied within the province. Nevertheless, more than one half of the gross amount of all its public revenues has been applied, for several years past, in payment of salaries, emoluments and expenses of the officers of the Civil Government, exclusive of the usual and indispensable special appropria- tions ; and our anxiety is th-^ greater, as these salaries and emoluments and expenses nave been greatly increased without the consent of the Legislature, and have in some instances been paid to persons who do not reside in the province, or have rendered no service there- fore ; and in other cases the said salaries and emoluments and expenses are excessive, when compared with the incomes derived from real estate in this province, and the usual recom- pense obtained therein by individuals of talent, character and industry equal to those pos- sessed by the persons to whom the said salaries and emoluments are paid out of the public revenue of this province ; and lastly, in addition to those unnecessary and excessive salaries and expenses, your Majesty's subjects of this province are also burdened with various and increasing fees paid to the officers of the Civil Government, which are grievous to the sub- ject, diminishing the protection of the laws, the benefits of government, and the resources of the country for its necessary wants. We are convinced, that besides the most perfect security of person and property, one of the most efficacious means of promoting the public prosperity and preventing its decline, is to aid in the diffusion of useful knowledge, and the free exercise of individual industry and enterprise ; and we have witnessed with satisfaction and gratitude that our Provincial Legis- lature has ai:,/iopriated very large sums of money for these objects since the close of the last war with the United States of America; but we have to perform the painful duty of humbly representing to your Majesty, that the monies thus appropriated and applied under the direction of the Pioviniial Executive, have not produced ific beiielicial results that were 560. s >, 4 to 39t ai'I'T:ni)ix to rijpokt thom shlect committkk N* t. to be expected from a legal and judi jioiis npplicnlion oJ' them, und hove been tardily or l^wer Canuitt Pe- '"suffi<-'ently ncconnted tor. ..•,.. titiona: Di.tricUof It •» with the utmost pain that we are compelled to represent to your Majesty, that m Quebec, \c. this province of the British empire large turns of public money of the revenue levied within ^ - _ thij province, have been apj)lied, year after year, by warrant of the Executive Government, without any appropriation by the Legislature of the province, (at a time when the necessary appropriations were rejected in the said Legislative Council,) in payment of alleged expenses of the Civil Clovernment, and other expenses for wliich no services were rendered to the province, or for new and increased salaries and alfuwances never recognized by the Legis- lature. Were we to refrain from roinplaiiiiiig of such an enormous abuse, wc should co operate in consolidating our slavery, and wc humbly implore your Majesty's justice. Alike negligent in the preservation of the public monies and prodigal in their expendi- ture, the executive Government of this province has not only suffered the dissipation of large sums of money in the hands of the receiver-general, and other depositaries thereof, then and still under its superintendence and control, but has appointed other officers in the stead of these faulty depositaries, without taking any sutKcicnt security for the future; and having advanced to different persons large sums of mcicy appropriated by the Legislature, the neglect of the Executive Government in this respect has been such, that scverafof those persons have not accounted at the time when they ought to have accounted ; some have insufficiently accounted, or not rendered any account; and notwithstanding their negligence uiid default, some of these persons have been apnointed by the Executive (iovernineiit to offices of trust, honour and profit; and we most numbly represent to your Majesty that the Executive Government of the province, by its negligent conduct in these respects, has exposed your Majesty's subjects in this province to heavy und grievous losses, dissipated and endangered the resources of the province, and subjected its inhabitants to unnecessary burthens. Your Majesty's faithful subjects in this province have already forwarded humble repre- sentations to your Majesty's Government on the subject of the college and estates heretofore in the possession of the late order of Jesuits in this province, and while wc deplore the unfavourable result of our past endeavours, we nevertheless continue to entertain the most perfect confidence, that so soon as tlie truth shall be fully known to your Majesty, justice will be rendered unto us; and we humbly represent, that as the said order was never the proprietor of the said college and estates, but merely the depositary thereof for the education of the youth of Canada, the extinction of that orcL'r could not confer on the Sovereign any other rights on that property than were possessed by the said order ; and that your Majesty succeeded to the possession of those estates, subject to their being applied to the education of the youth of this province, conformably to their primitive destination ; and it is with the most profound grief that we Hnd ourselves still deprived of the benefits which were formerly derived from the actual application of that property to these objects under the direction of the Jesuits, while education is languishing amongst us for want of those resources. The settlement of the waste lands in this province, the imporiancc of which lias already, at various times, occupied the attention of your Majesty's Imperial Government, has been neglected in the most unaccountable manner by the Executive Government of the province, so that large portions of the said lands, granted or reserved by the Crown, have been long held, and continue to be held in the midst of, or in the immediate vicinity of actual settle- ments, without the owners or possessors thereof having been compelled to perform the duty of settlement upon which isaid lands were granted by the Crown, or any other duty in rela- tion to the said lands, to the grievous burden of the actual inhabitants, the discouragement of new settlers, and the obstruction of the general increase and prosperity of ihc province. But of all the abuses of which the inhabilaiits of this province have to complain, the most afflicting to your Petitioners is, that during ilie prevalence of the aforementioned and various other abuses and grievances, false representations and repeated attempts have been made by divers officers of the Provincial Executive, possessing the confulcncc of your Majesty's Government, to obtain from your Majesty's (jovcrnment in England, and the Parliament of the United Kingdom, various alterations in the constitution of the government of this pro- vince as established by law, without the knowledge of your Majesty's faithful subjects in this jirovince, in contempt of their most sacred rights and dearest interests; and this at a time when u majority of executive councillors, judges, and other ofReers in the Legislative Council, prevented the inhabitants of the province from having an authorized agent in England lo watch over and support their interests, and enable them to be heard by the Government of the mother country ; and ii is under these circumstances that the Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, 4th Geo. IV. c. 6, reviving or continuing certain tem- porary Acts of the Provincial Legislature levying duties within this province, and the Acts affecting the tenure of lands therein, were passed, without the knowledge of its inhabitants, to the subversion of their rights and dearest interests, and particularly without the know- le445 Total, District of Quebec 24,484 County of Warwick 4.904 29,388 2d February, 1828. RESOLUTIONS on which the foregoing Petition was founded. AT a Meeting of Electors of the City and Suburbs of Quebec, who approve of the conduct of the House of Assembly, called for the purpose of considering the expediency of submitting, by humble Petition to His IVIiijesty and both Houses of Parliament, the present state of the Province, and the abuses nnd grievances which prevail therein, and praying for relief and justice ; held at Mulhiot's Hotel, 13th December 1827 ; — Louis Abraham Lagueux, Esq. in the Chair : It was Resolved, 1st. THAT there was reason to hope that in the session of the Provincial Parliament, assembled on the 20th of November last for the despatch of public business, the state of the province would have been improved, and the evils which weigh on its inhabitants remedied, or put in a course to be removed, and its peace, welfare and good government promoted. ad. That the said session has been interrupted by the refusal on the part of his Excellency the Governor in Chief to approve, according lo parliamentary usage, the Speaker chosen nnd presented by the Assembly in the usual manner, and by the proclamation of the 22d November proroguing the Provinrial Parliament. 3d. That it is expedient, under the foregoing circumstances, to submit, by humble petition to His Majesty and the two Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, the present state of the province, and the evils to which its inhabitants are exposed, in the hope that in the exercise of the Royal Prerogative, and the justice of Parliament, a remedy may be applied, whereby the Constitution ot this province, as now established by Act of the Parliament of Great Britain, may be preserved and maintained unimpaired. 4th. That for several years past the income of real estate in this province, theprofits of trade and industry, and the wages of labour therein, have greatly diminished, and are still diminishing, with new and alarming features. 5th. That be.iides the ensuring to the subject the most perfect security of his person and pi'operty, the aiding and facilitating the diffusion of useful knowledge, and the free exercii^e of industry and enfrprise, are amoiigAt the most efficient means of promoting the general prosperity, and preventing its decline. 6tn, 1 hat although large sums of public money have been appropriated by the Legislaiuio of this province, since the conclusion of t> '. late war, in oid of education, and for facilitating industry, by opening and improving intcrnu^ communications, and that these appropriations hove been applied under the direction of the Provisional Executive, they have produced no adequate advantages, while many of the persons entrusted by the said Executive with the expenditure uf the said monies have tardily or insufficiently accounted for the same. 7ih. That under the present circumstances of the province, no taxes or new duties for the public uses thereof can equitably be imposed, and no dependence can be placed on any funds lor aiding in the diil'usion of education, and facilitating the exertions of individual industry and enterprise, other than sulIi funds as may be derived from the existing public revenue of the province. 569. T t Sih.That m- :\^» APPENDIX TO UEPOKT FROM SELECT lOMMlTTEE N'l. Lo<»er ....oni Uuebec, Ac 81I1. That more timii out liall ol the gross iiinouiit of the naid piihhc rrvi-nue has be«n Canada Pc- "PI'""' fuf several years oast ui llif |ta^iiiciit of llii' salmie!*, i-iiioluiiiL'iits iiiiil ixpriises of : District* uf ''^c officers of the Civil GovertiiiU'iit of the |iroviiii'r, exclusive uf the usual special r appropriations, 9th. That the said salaries, ciiiolunients arxl expenses have been greatly increased without the concurrence or consent of the Legislature for many years past, and are in several instances paid to absi'ntees and oeiitons who have rendered no service therefore to this province; and in other instances the said salaries, emoluments and expenses are excessive compared with the services rendered, and with the incomes derived liom real estate, and the usual rccouipeiise obtained hy individuals of talent, churacter and industry equal to those of the persons who hold the said salaries and emoluments. loth. That besides the unnecessary and excessive salaries, emoluments and expenses, fees increasing to a heavy and grievous amount are paid by the subject to divers olticers of fioverninent, whereby individuals are burtliencd, the protection of the law and the benefit of government arc fessened, and the resources of the country for its necessary wanli diminishedt I ith. That a ninjorily of |)ersonR, chiclly igh public officers within the province. For appointing and providing for an authorized agent for the province, to reside in England, and attend to its interests there. 13th. That the repeated rejection, the refusal or neglect to proceed upon these and other necessary bills sent up by the Assembly to the Legislative Council, by a majority of the said Council formed of executive councillors, judges and oflicers holding their commissions during pleasure, must be held to be the act of the Executive Government of the province, and as such constitutes a public grievance, destructive of the ends of the constitution of government as by law established in this province, 14th. That large sums of money of the proceeds of the public revenue levied in this province have been applied by warrant of the Executive Government, year after year, without any appropriation by the legislative body therein (while the necessary appropria- tions were rejected in the said Legislative Council), for the payment of alleged expenses of the Civil Government, and other expenses, for which no services were rendered to the province, or for new and increased salaries and allowances never recognized by the Legislature. i5ih. That large sums of money of the proceeds of the public revenue raised within this province, in the hands of the late receiver-general, and other depositaries of public monies, then and still under the control and superintendence of the Provincial Executive, have been dissipated, and ether officers appointed in their stead, without any adecjuate securities being taken for the future, thereby occasioning and exposing the public to grievous losses, wasting ^Tlffi^.J^-K ON THE CIVIL f;OVEllNMi;NT Or CANADA. 331 wniiina; or endangering (lie reaourcea of llic province, and subjecting its inhabitanti to N* 9. unnerc'xxary UurtlirnH. Lower C«nod« Pe- 161I1. 'I'liiii viirioiiH otlicr sum* nf money np|iinprinte(l by the Legitlnture liave been titlons: DIatrictaof nilvaiiccd |c) (livcrn pc-ixiiit iippoinlcd by tin; IlxcciiiiM', niiiiiy iit uhoiii \n\yv not iirciiiinted (jucbcc, Aic. lor siU'ii advnntCH in due iiin»", biivi- iiisiilbcii'nily iiccounlcil, or not acciiunlt'd in iiny nbnpcv y wbaisdtvrr, aNiippcnrsi by ihcHtiitoineiit liiid bi'tiiru the Ai«8C'inbly,oii uddrt't^i, in the leation of iB'jty; and that pcrsonu ilicn in default on the suid statement have been appointed toother liluntiotis of honour, trust and profit. I7tli. That the collrfj;(> and ri'vcnucii of thu estnicH of the late order of Jeiuits in thi» province, ori^'inidiy r.'eeud and formerly applied for the civil nnd religious education of the yiiuili of this province, have not iicen so applied for many years past, and are in no way accounted for to the LrgiHliiturc or the inhabitants of this province. iHth. 'I'liat large portions of the waste lands granted or reserved by the Crown in thi« province have been long held, and continue to be held, in the midst of, or in the immediate vicinity of, actual scttlciiients, witlioui the owners or possessors thereof having been com- pelled to perform tlu; duly of settlement upon which such lands were granted by the Crown, or any oilier duly in relation to the said lands, to the grievous burtiicn of the actual settlers, the hindrance of new settlers, and the obstruction of the general increase and pi'os|)erity of ilie province. iqth. riint during the prevalence of these and other abuses and grievances, false repre« seiilations and atlempls have been repeatedly made by divers olheers of the Provincial Kxcciilive, to (iblain Irom iiiH Majesty's Government in England, and the Parliament of the United Kingdom, various aiteiatioiis in the coiislilutiun of the governnient of this iiiovince, as eslabjished by an Act of the Ikilish I'ailiiiininl, prejudicial to the rights nnd interests of this province, without their knowledge, and at a lime when ilie snid inhabitants were prevented by the suid majority of executive coiineiilors, judges and other ofticers in the Legislative Council, from having an authorized agent in Lngland to attend to their interests, and enable them to be heard by the Government of ihe mother country. 2oth. That the revival or continuation, by the Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom (4 Geo. IV. c. 6), of temporary duties imposed by the Provincial Acts, were so obtained, as well as the Acts atTecting the tenures of land in this province, the whole pre- judicial to the dearest rights and essential interests of the inhabilanis of this province, and without the knowledge or coiincnt of the persons chiefly uti'ccted by the suid Acts. 2 1 St. That the afoie-mentioned Application of monies levied in this province, without appropriations by the Legis- lature thereof. The said advances of money to persons who have not sufficiently accounted for the same. The said dissipation of public money, and appointment of persons to be entrusted with pubhc monies without full necurity given, The diversion of the revenues of the estates of the late order of the Jesuits from purposes of education of the youth of this province. The inexcciition of the conditions of the grants of the waste lands of the Crown, nnd the aforesaid attempts on the part of the oilicers of the Executive Government to obtain alterations in England of tlie established constitution and laws of the pro- vince, willioiit the knowledge of tlie inhabitants generally, and wiiliout their having had an opportunity of being heard. Arc grievances dangerous to the peace, welfare and good government of this province. 22d. That the prayer of the petition to His Majesty be, that he would take the premises into His most gracious consideration, and so exercise His Koyal Prerogative that His subjects in this province be relieved from the said abuses and grievances, and that justice be done therein ; that the inhabitants of Ibis province be secured in the full enjoyment of the constitution of government, us establislicd by the Act passed in the Qlst year of the reign of His lute Hoyal Father, of revered memory. 23d. That the prayer to both Houses of Parliament be, that they wonid take the pre-' inises into consideration, cause inquiry to be made, and the Petitioners to be heard, tliat justice may be done ihereon, an,' the subject in this province be secured in the full enjoy- ment of the constitution of governnient, as estnblisncd by the Act of the Parliament of Great Britain, passed in the 31st y.;ar of the reign of his late Majesty, without any alteration thereof whatsoever. 24lh. That a committee of thiriy-fivc electors, duly qualified by law to vote for members of the Assembly of this province, be apnoinied to draft and prepare petitions on tiie lore- going resolutions, with full power to laKe all the necessary steps for submitting them for the signature of the electors generally, for causing the said petitions to be laid at the foot of the Throne and presented to the Lords and Commons, and also to give efTcct to and support the same by evidence. 25111. 'I'liat this meeting will contribute and assist in procuring voluntary subscriptions to- cover the necessary expeiidilurc for the aforesaid purposes. 261I1. That Mihsrs. Amable Heiihelot, rraiigois Blancliot, J. L. Borgia, J. B. E. Bacquet, Robeil IJIackislon, Michel Borne, J. Bigaoutte, Michel Cloiiet, John Cannon, Joseph Uorion, Etienne IJefoy, John Duval, John Eraser, H. G. roisyth, Pierre Eaucher, Jose|)li Gngne, A. R. HaincI, H, ij. Hiiot, Louis Laguenx, Joseph Legate, pi^re, Louis Lagueux, si'O. T I 2 ttls, 331 AIM»K.NDIX TO IIEPORT FROM SELECT COMMriTEK N««. fil*, Jncqupi I^blond, Et. C Lngiuux, Jcon ^nllj^fvin, iKnncp Lcgnri', J. L. Miirctf, Loui* Lower Cuitda Pc- ^'"»»u''. .Imuliini M(»mli A I'orm a quorum ; iiotucii in writinu <>> tlic time and pliice ol uicttiug being iircviuualy luft at the domicilr of e«cli of the Kiiid cominiUte. 37th. Thnt the aaid coniniitt>,>i have puwer lu add to their number, nuil be empowered to aid in forwarding limilar petition* from any other part* of thii district, hi cane* wheru apphcatinn* may be made to them to that efl'ei-t, and where eontributioiiH may have been made to the fundii of ihe itaid committee in aid of the aforemeiitiimed expenditure. ';8(h. That Joseph Hoy, entjuire, be treniturur of the laid commillee, and b(- held to account lu (he aaid committee, and u meeting of electura pul)licly culled, and that all paymetitt made by him be vouched by orderi of the aaid cummitlee, atteated by the signature of the secretary. JmuUA. Lagueiii, Pretider.t. //. .*J. Iluot, Secretary. At a inretinc; of the Committee, Friilny, M''" Dtcember 1827, the following officers were appointed:—.!. H- Vallieres de S(. llenl, eH(|uire, preitideni; Henry CJeor^e Forsyth, t'smiiie, and LouIh Al)ralinm l^gueux, es(|uirc, vice-preiiidenu; Messra. il. S. Huut and J. 13. E. Uacquct, sv'crctariea. II. S. Iluot, Secretary. r. Province of Lower Canada. PETITION of the Counties in the Disliicti of Montreal and Tiirce Riverf. [The Original ef thi* Petition having been in French, it i* given in preference to tiic English. The Petitions to the Lords and Coininuiis are the same as the Petition to tne King, with the necessary changes in the style.] A la Tri>» Exceilente Majesle du Roi. La Petition des soussigni-s fidMes et loyaiix Sujets de Votie Mojeate rusidens dang Ic Bus Canada. Qu'i! plaise i\ Voire Mnjesi/'-, DANS unc parlieeioignee des immcnses domaines dc votre Mnjcste, il existc uti pcuple eu noinbreux, il est vrai, mais 6d^le el loyal : il jouit avec orgueil et reconnaissance, sous la dninination de voire Majcst^, du noble tiire dc Sujela Diiiannii|iie4, qui lui a (■t(' conjure sous le rtigne dc votre piire de glorieuse ineinoirc, avec tons Ics droits qui font dc ce titro un objetd'envie. Plus ce bienfait etait gruiul, plus votre bon peupic du Rus Canada a cru devoir montrcr de reconnaissance: I'liisloire est la (Kiur denoser en iiotrc favcur : laijsuns lui le soil! de proiiver que nous avons deu.x fois einpi!clie ci; pnys di' passer sous unc domination etrangere. Reconnaiasans dc rinestiinable present que nous a fait la m5re pntrie en imus accordant notre constitution, convaincus qu'elle pent fairc Ir boiilieur dc voj fidilcs siijcts en Canada, le premier dc noi va-ux est dc lu conscrvcr iiilacte ct dc jnulr librcincnt ihs dioita [irccicux quVllc nous assure. I'.irnii Ics droits inhcrents au litre de sujets Rritanniqucs, criui tie petition est un des plu° iuiportaiit cl des plus sacres : il assure an plus paiivre iiidividu le droit d'etre entendu ct i'espoir de la justice lors uieinc qu'i! se plaint ilis personiits les plus elcvecs en jlignitc. La voix do tout un peuple sera suns doute encore plus pui!>santc, lorsqu'ellc parvjcndra aux pieds de votre none, et qu'eiic rcvelera a votre Majcstc que I'opprcasion peut exister sous son Ciuuvernemeut patrrnel. L'6loignemcnt ou nous soinnies du sit^ge de Tcinpirc, ct I'espoir d'un changenient pour le mieux, nous ont engages jusqu' a ce jour h un p^nible silence; niaia Texciisdu mul nmis force enKn i\ le rompre. II ne convieni pas au caractiirc de sujet RritaiHiique dc snufTiu servilemcnt I'opprcssion : la patience dans ce cas n'est une verlu que pour des csclaves. Nous vcnonsdcposer a vos pieds nos justeS|Maintes cuntrc son hxcellcncc (Jcoige Cointc de Dalhousie. Charge par vous mcmc de vous .-cpresentcr dans voire Colonic, et de iidUs faire 6prouver les bienfaits da (luuvcrnement dt votre Majestc, il s'eii faut dc beaucuup, roalheureusement pour nous, qu'd uit reinpli la haute missiun dont voi:s I'aviez gracicuse- inent charge pourle bonhetir de vos tidck-s aujets Canadiens. II a, pendant son administration, comtnis dlircrents actes arbitraire,, tendaiit il aliciier raflfection des fidt^les sujela de votre MajtsKi, ei subversit's du Gouvciiicment tel qu'ctabli par la loi dans cetie province. 'I a, par warrant on autreinent, tir6 des mains du receveur-g^iicral dc cctte province, des sommes considerables sansy ctre autoris6 par la loi. II a, volontairement et mcchamment, tronque, suppriinc, garde par-dcvers lui clsuustrait tk la connaissance dti Parleincnl Provincial, divers docuinena el papiers publics n6cessaires ^.la d^pcche des affaires et an bon gouvernement de cettc province, el ci; au grand <16irimeni dii service public et au grand prejudice des siijels ublic avait uvuu^: aa iimlveiastiun et declar6 ion iiieapitclie de uMtiti'uire uu» dfiiiMidi't ^ ^ ^ aitt'i coiitru lui pour lu Hervicv public; ct ce iiu grand d^-iiiinent dct liubilUM* liti crii* proviacr, cl au urand prejudice clu lervi - U dc In fui publiqiit-. II a en oppoHition i\ III pratique conmai tc du Gouvernemeui dc votn- Majcal^!, I't i>ii violation dc son devoir comine aduiiniilrutcur du gouvenienu'iit du ccitc province, noniiiM* John Hull', i.'cuver, pour ri-niplncer Ic dit John Ciildwell, ciiuime receveur-K^^n^fful, •iiiit cxi^er iii rctjucrir dc lui let aurct^fs ordiriairea rcquiara pour nuaurer lit due eji^'ciitiitll ilra devoiia de cette place. II a'est en dilFereiM tenii acrvi du »on autoritc cou)me L'oniinundaiit en Clii')'. pmii influenccr, iniiniider Ich huliituna dc cctle Province danit T' .ercicc de leura droit* (iv(U il politique*. U a commo Comniiindiint en Chef rcnvoyc et diagrnci)"- un grund nonibre irii||li'ii>r« de uiiJicc dans lu province, uniis ciiUHe juite, ou raiaon Hufrisante. II a aani cuuae, on raiaoti auHiaunte, arbitraireinent et dcHpoiiqueinent, renvoyi'i et prtv^ pluiieura officicrs civils des places de confiance et de responaubilite qu'd* occupuiunt, el i'«> au prejudice dece.i otHcicrs et du service public. 11 a nmintenu et ciiiinr conduilit dana I'excrcice de leura t'unciioiis t'-taient prejudiciablca au aervice de voire MujeHt<'> el iiiix int^-ruts dc aes sujeu dniis crtie iiiovini'e. II a multiplie dana deit tenia de tranqnillile, et sans aucunv ncceanile, dea court vptirmli < d'oyer et terminer, outre les tenner reguliers ct ordinaires (Icm eoiira ciiininellm ^tiiilni. < par la loi, iinpuaant p.ir lA un I'ardenu coiisidcrnblc aux siijcta dc voire Migetl<<, it niie dtpensc enoruiu a la province. II a, par des piorouatioiis ct diasolution subites et violcnte^i du I'jrienient IVoviiii'ImI, nui aux inierets puliiics de cetie province, retard^ ses progien, euipt'che lit puaautioii d'actes utiles : II a dana sea discoura lors dc tellea prorof^uiiimx, tauaienient iiceiui') lea representans du peiipic, afin de les d<>crier dans I'opinion dc ietira conaiitimns el duiia lu viin de creer aupriis du Uouvernement dc voire Majcsie des prejugcj d^tavorablea a lu toyiiiit*' et au caract^ie des siijiu Canadiens de voire Majesie: II u lo^Me et perinia que lea Gazettes dn Cjouverii> ment publieea sous son autoritc ou sous sun coiilrole, piiriiKti'iil journellcment les accu.sations les plus t'uusses et les plus eaJoninieutea coniri) In (lliiiiiihie d'Assuinblcf, ninsi que contre lout le peuple dc celte province. II a par le nieine nuiycii menace le pays d'cxcrcer la Prerogative Unyali' d'unc mwiutf violenie, des])(>tii)uc et desastreuse, c'esi-iVdirc, de dissoudre eoiiiiiiiicllrnicni, on ailun I'expression insuliaiite de ees menaces, de ehasser le corps repicseiiliilil jiisqii'a ee i|iii' \n i'raiicS'tcnaiu'icrs et les pro|>ni''laires se vissent obliges de elioisir pour leprcneiiliiiit, iimm plus crux qui uuniiciit Icur conliunce, liiais ccux qui scraieiu ilnposea a loul ilet'iilder a I'Executit' et li lui sncrifier le droit qua Ic people de celle province, ugiaaiini pin »tt» rcpruscniaiis, de determiner quelle somnie dcsdcniers publics radniMiistiuiioii mil i Ic ilioii de depeiiser, el cKcuit. tit's et autres personnes sous son controle et puss6dunt des places durant plaisir, de ac H'rvji de leur prepundeiaiice dans le Conseil Lcgislatit' dont ils sont aussi nieinbies, piiur itup' fiorter cette politique vindicative ct lejeier en 1827, tons les bills d'appropriuiioii pour 'avancctnent de la province et pour des objels de cliariie qui avaient eitj jiusaea HiMiimlle' ment depuis un grand noinbre d'ann<-es. II a viol6 les Irancliises 6lcctives des liabitins de cette province, en essayaiit dim'U'llli^rit ct indircclemcnt li'iiifliier sur I'election des ineuibres de la Chambre (rA»senili|(''e de cpile province. II a enlin, par tous ccs divers actes d'oppression, crce dans tout le pays un ai'iiliiiir'iit d'alarnie et de niceontentemcnt, d6pr6ci6 I'aiitorit^ du pouvoir judieiuiiu dans roplllioii pubruiue, aiTaibli la contiance du peuple dans I'adininistration de lu Justice, et inspitf dull* toute la province un scniiment insurmontable de m6liance, de soup^on et de dugout t'liiKie son administration. Nous osons done supplier votre Majest6 de vouloir bien prendre en sa Koyalo cniiaid^iit' tion les vexations qu'ont ^prouv^es vos fiddles sujets dans cette partie ^Inigii^ie '* von domnines. Press6ssous le poids de tant d'acles d'oppression nous avons cru devoir .iipplirr voire Majesty de vouloir bien, pour I'intert-t de son service dans cette colonic, et I'liviliiIHgti de ses fulclcs sujcts y residens, lanpeler pour loujours son Excdlenei; le Oouverii^ur t'll 569. Tt3 cm; fM APPENDIX TO KEPOIIT I'ttOM .Sl'JiliCT COMMITTEn M* s. Chef, comme nc pouvant plun juuir f\v In (.'onfluitce tiublique ciins ceit^ ^>rovince, ni en Lower Canada Pe- ^dmi^'-istrer le gouverneinent uveo lioiiiieiir pour In Couruntic ou uvvc avuntuge pour le titionttDittricUof peuple. Quebec, &c. Qu'il plaise h Votre Mnjeit6, ' ' Prives comme nous Ic aoininea iiwiiiitcnniit, (inr la prnrogntioii dii Parlement Provincial, des services publics tie not rcpr^-neiitaiii*, t\v* Mprouv£>, nous 80inines dans la iieccssiiu do iiuuiuc'tirt* iiuii!*'iti('nirii i\ In liirnvcilmnteconsidtTntion de votre Majc8t6, (|uclques nbjets que nou» i'«i|iiioii« di' III iilun liniitu iniportnnce pour le bien etre du pays, objets qui tendent <'^gideini'Ml li ii^inrt't Ic boMiicur du peuple, et h rendre cette colonie plus utile ti reuipire lkilimiiii|iii', vi' ipii lie pi'ut qu'lnK^'rcsser le cncur Royal de votre Miijcst6, sous Ic double rnppurt du p^rtt do sun peuple el de chef supreme d'un puissant empire. L'education est lo preuiier den bit-nt (iti'iiii piT** puiimc donner ik son fils, le premier des bieiis qu'une Icgislmiuii ('clain'e puisne ii>«ur*'r m\ pcuples, Kn rcndaut justice aux efforts qui ont M faits duns cc pays vertmt (liijt't iinpoitiiiil, par phisicurs corps ct par un grand nombre de particulirrs, un uc peut cepi'miiilil ditcoiivrnir que l'education publique n'cst pas cncourag^-e dans cc pays en proporiiiiii di' »>'» \ifnii'u\s. Et puiiriant la province n'ctait pas ddpourvue de nioycns : la niii'.iifici'lK't* di'> Itoii t\e France rt Ics bicnfiiits de quelques particuliers n'avoient ricn laiste a d^^sii'itr h ih< tHJeti Des fondalions vraiment royalcs tant par leur objet que par leur etundue, atiiiiuit'rii A cf pnya des rcssourcis suilisantvs pour le tenis, et croissuntes avec Ics bciiiiini d* lit piipuliitiiill. Dcpuis IVxtiiiction de Turdrc des Jesuitcs en ce piiy^, ses liiens aont piKBt's uiix mains du (jouvcrncincnt de voire Majeste. Votre M; icstti peut scule Ics reuilri' li U'tir prciiiii^'rt?, t\ leur bicntiiisante destination. Nous I'en sup, .ions triis-liumblin.rnt. (Ju'il iw puipme tins T^tre dit que cette province a 6te priveo suus Ic (tonverneinent du Koi ciinntiluiioMMci de la Qrande Hretagne, des bicni'aits quele Uoi ab^iolu dc la France lui avail i'iiuU'i/'h ititur lY'ducntion de ses habitans. Un des droits naturels, tundamenlaiix, inilli/'niiblcs des <>ujcts Hrilanniques, un des litres de leur gloire ri de leur sureii'', cVitt li> droit dc or taxer cux-meiiK.'s ct de contribuer hbrcinent aux cliargcs puhli(|ucs teliH) li'lir» inuycns> A ce tilre iiaturcl nousjnignons encore Ics droits ri'sultaiis do la loi /'uritc, dc* Ai'ics dn I'arlemcnt Imperial qui decliirent que I'Anglcterre rcnoncc a iuquxer ilea HiXv* diilK les colonies, et qui donnent i\ cetle province le droit de faire des lois pciiii' mi liiinqiiillJK'', xon bonhcur, ct son bon Gouverne- inent. Nous supplions liunibk'uiL'iii viitrc MMjnth' d'oiciucr noire toincrilc, ou bien plutoc d'approuvcr la confiance en vulrc jioKcy cl en ccllc du I'arlemcnt Imperial, qui nous engage a nous pluindre de cr. que cc. diiilin oiil clc l(''/.('s d'uiie manitire grave par des Actes du Parlement Inipciiul. Nuid liiiaiiMn iiIIikioii tiiirlout i"! I'acte de cuuimerce du Canada, passe dans la tniisiiinc aniicc ilii ic^iic ilr viitre INIiijcsl^', cli. 119, et il celui des tenures des tcrres, pas>c diiiis la nJMriiic iiiiticc ilii n-giic t\r voire Majcstc, cli. 59, contre lequC'l nous avoiis 'It'ja ii(lii-t>c piir la vole ilc not rclprcsciitans a voire Majcste nos humbles reeiamaliniis : I'liii iialilii dirccii im iil dro jiii|ii't<< dans ccllc colonic, et Ics rend f>erpetucls sans la parlicipaliuii du riiilcihi iil I'lovllicial; rautic louclic i\ des ubjcts dc egislalion iiiicricure siir IcMjiula umu croyiMir iMitiibicmcnt que la legislature coloniale avail piciiie juusditfiun. Nous croirions, Sire, mcriiir liii >i |icii U* iiMvlimnlilrs bieiifaits que nous procure la constituiiun qui nuus rt'gii, ai iiiiu« lU' l> ainiia liius iios ettbrls pour la conservcr intacte. C'est pr.iuver couibicn iiuui cii «i iiluiia hiiii |c ptix. La cumulation dans 1111& ^^cule cl mu'IIIc pciaiiMiic dc plii^ieurs places importantes dans ccs nolonies cl qui nous semblciil iiicoiinialildca, cat nil obsliieic vivement senti, un obstacle considerable au bon gouverneinent de ccllc |iiiiviiice. Nous voyons dans ce pays les places dejugcsdu lianc du Itoi, dc iiiiiacillcii) cx(''cmirs et legislaiils, possed^ies par la nieme personnc. Nous eioyons liuiiiblcint'iil <|ue cct liautes functions devraient etre 'ieu dfciic eiimiik'c* { que les Jiiues boi iiges born(''s aux importantes foiic- exercees insolemcnt au I tiousde leur etat nc devraient pas nii'-gcrdiiliii li'« Cuiitells : que les Conseillers L6gislatifs ne devraient pas etre ailmis au Conwil ICx^ciilil, et I'lri* vrrM : qu'il serait convenahle que les JugcB fusscnt plus indepcndaiis, aiijcta Nculciiu'iit avec les autrcs crands fonctionnaires publics u un tribunal eiabli daiiH la province |iiMir jiigcr des impeachments. Nous avons deja fait des represenUitions cl dca dtniiiii'clica conccrMant ces diHcrcns objets par le inoycn de DOS representans dans lu ('hamlii'c d'Aaacnibli'ic, l>cs mesurcs par eux pioposccs ont eebuue dans les anircs bianclica ilc la l/^ialaliirc. Nous supplions hiimblement voire Majeile dc vouloir bii n |iicnilrecii au coiinidcralliili toyillc ics maiix nombrcux qui doivent incviiablcincnt r6suller (le cellc ilhiiibulloM llllpi>|iti(|uc, cl pen sage de luus les pouvoirs du gouverniuunt afin qu'claiil iria-jn^teinciil coiiiliimiics par voire Majcste, il vous plaise ordunner u vos Mini^iics dc iloniicr dca iiiiiriH'tioiia an (ioiivcrncmcnt Colonial a ce sujct, de munierc u auioriscr la paa>aiioii d'Aelia pin lu I'arliiiicnt Provincial, qui tendrnient a corrigcr ces abus. L'aceruissenu'nt rapidt.' dc la popiilMiioll dcpiiia la premiere demarcation des comics, rciidani neeessairc un cliaiigcinciii ciirrca|iiiiii|imi ilalla la rcpfcscniaiion proviiiciaic, noire I'arlemcnt jugeu prudi j !,coiiiiiic nicaiirc picliiiiiiiiiirc, dc coiistaicr Telat uclucldc la popu- lation, par UQ rccenseuieiil ipii dcvail an Mr de lime mux cliiiiigeinens a taire dans la' repicscniation. La CImmblu d'A«>eiiibli'!i.' pitmiu eiiiuile ^ plusicurs re|>rises un l)ill ])our augraenler ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 335 In le augmenter le nombre des cointos et des repr68ciitan8. duns les autres branches de la legislature. Ceg bills ont ^galement uchou^ N'a. Lower Canada Pa- II est encore un objet qui int6resse vivement le peuple de cette province; c'est la nomi- ^t>op»: DiBtrictt of nation d'un agent provincial accr^dit^, aupr^s du uouvernement de votre Majest6, qui ' pourrait faire parvenir aux pieds du Trone, I'expression de nos besoins, fournir aux Ministres ^ de votre Majest^ des renseignemens utiles et veiller 4 nos int^r^ts particuliers. Cette province a dcja plus d'une fois uprouv6 le besoin d'un semblable agent : ses repr^sentant n'ont pas encore pu r^cssir ik obtenir la passation d'un acte k cet effet. Let accusations mat fondees port^es par le Gouverneur en Chef contre la Chambre d'Assembl^e, dans ton discours de prorogation du dernier Parlement, auxquelles la Chambre n'a pas encore eu occasion de r^pondre, d^montrent la n^cessit^ d'un agent; le Gouverneur qui accuse la Chambre ne pouvant gu^re £tre le canal de communication dont les accuses puissent se servir avec confiance pour d^fendre leur cause. — Nous supplions humbiement votre Majest^ de vouloir bien ordonner u vos Ministres de donner des instructions au Gouvernemeot Colonial, en vertu desquelles un bill pour I'uugumentation de la representation puisse £tre «anctionn6, ainsi qu'un bill pour accorder k cette province I'avantage dont jouissent la plupart des autres colonies de votre Majest^, celui d'avoir un agent colonial, nomm6 et a£pui6 par le peuple de la colonic, pour veiller k ses int^rets en Angleterre. Le tout tr(^s-humbIement soumis i\ la bienveillance et h la sagesse de votre Majesty, par les fiddles ct loyaux sujets de votre Majeste dans le Bas Canada, les Petitionnairet soussiges qui comme il est de leur devoir ne cesseront de prier. Bas Canada, Janvier, 1828. Recapitulation of Signatures, to February 6, 1828 : County of Montreal ------- 7,753 Kent 2,163 Huntingdon .--._- 5,327 Leinster ------- 6,192 Surrey -.----- 3,080 Bedford - J»342 York 4,199 Riciielieu - 8,175 Effingham .----.. 2,654 Total district of Montreal - - 40,885 Total district of Three Rivers - -10,665 District of Quebec ....... 20,338 Total to both Petitions - - - —I 80,888 Forwarded since, to 17th February 1828 : Districts of Montreal and Three Rivers, and District of Quebec 6,212 Grand Total ... 87,090 Chairmen of the several county committees who have certified the appointment of the ai;ents to tiie Petitioners, viz. Messrs. Neiison, Viger and Cuvillier, members of the Assembly of Low,- Canada :— Fran. Desrivieres, chairman of the petitioners in the county of Montreal; Fran. Ant. La Focque, Montreal; Ren6 de la Bruere, county of Kent; Lnt. le Roux, county of Leinster; Pierre Amiot, county of Surrey ; Chat. St. Ours, county of Richelieu; P. I). Debnrtzch, county of Richelieu; Hertel de Rouville, county of Bed- ford ; Fiancoia Xavier Malhiot, county of Surrey ; Ignace Raizenne, county of York ; Louis Roy Portclunce, Montreal. District of Montreal, February, 1828. 560. Tt4 33* APPENDIX TO HEPORT TUOM SELECT COMMITTEE N«3. Petition of tli« Inhabitnntii o( the Townships on S. S. of St. Lawrence, in Lower Canada. Appendix, N* 3. To the Ilonuurable the Knights, Citizens and Burgesses, representing liie Commons of the United Kingdom uf Great Britain and Ireland, in Purliument astembled. The PETITION of the Subscribers, His Majesty's dutiful and loyal Subjects, of British birtli or descent, Inhabitants of the Townships of Dunham, Stanbridge, St. Armand, Sutton, Poiton, Stanstead, Barnsion, Barford, Hereford, Farnham, Brome, BoltoD, Hatlev, Compton, C'.ition, Granby, Sheflbrd, Siukcly, Orford, Ascot, Eaton, New- Enrt, Bury, Hampt'.en, Milton, Uoxton, Duriiam, Melborn, Windsor, Shipton, Stoke, tudsweji, Simpson, Kingsey, Grantham, Wickham, Wendovor, Brompton, and other Townships I'.nd Places situated on the South-east side of the River St. Law- rence, in the I'rcvince of Lower Canada; Humbly showetii, THAT the number of inhabitants, of Briiisli birth and descent, now residing in the pro- vince of Lower Canada, exceeds 80,000 souls, a greater amount than all the inhabitants of the country when it tirst became a colony of England. That the townships of Lower Canada form a large portion of the territorial extent of the province, separate from the seigniories or old French feudal grants thereof, and are inhabited Dy a population of upwards of 40,000 souls, almost wholly composed of persons of British birth and descent, whose numbers are continually augmenting, besides their natural in- crease, by the desirable accession of emigrants from the mother country. That, so long ago as the year 1763, His Majesty's proclamation assured to his subjects, coming to settle upon the then ungranted lands in Canada, the benefit of the laws of his realm of England. That the assurances of this proclamation were as to them sanctioned and confirmed, by the exception contained in the Statute, 14 G. 3, which declared that the provisions of the* said Act, establishing French laws, should not extend nor be construed to extend to lands to be granted in free and common soccage, the exclusive tenure of the townships, . Thi-t no provincial enactments or provisions were made towards carrying into practical operation the valued privileges of the English laws, which had been as aforesaid assured to them; although the wishes of the townships in that particular were loudly expressed and universally known. That in consequence, the Imperial Parliament, in its beneficence, was pleased in the sixth year of the reign of His present Majesty to pass an Act, not less culled for by a due regard to national honour, than by a sense of justice to your Petitioners; wherein any doubts too scrupii/ousli/ entertained in respect to the construction of the afore- said statute 14 G. 3, have been happily removed, in relation to the townships and the Englith laws regarding tenures established therein. 'That it hath come tu the knowledge of your Petitioners that numbers of the inhabit- ants of the seigniories, influenced by the French Canadian leaders of the House of Assem- bly, are now petitioning the Imperial Legislature for the repeal of the before-mentioned statute of the sixth year of His present Majesty, commonly called the " Canada Tenures Act." That your Petitioners, for the blessing conferred by the said statute of the Imperial i'arliament, in bestowing upon them the benefit of the laws of their parent country, and presirving the tics and cliaraetrr which connect them with the empire to which they belong, ieel a weight ot gratitude greater than they can express, and will at all times be ready to defend those ties against every invader or enemy either in I^wtr Canada or elsewhere. Their gra itude is alsii deeply (elt on behalf of their countrymen the emigrants from Great Britain, who may now be induced in great numbers to settle among them, but who, without the benefit of Eci^'lish laws, would for the most part have been led to seek an asylum elsewhere, as they have unhappily for this province too often done in times past. That in order to give practical effect and scope to the benefits conferred upon them by the recent Act of the Imperial Parliament, and also to prevent the machinations of the French Canadian House of As-cmbly to their ruin, it becomes nei-cssary that the town- ships, which have never hitherto lifen represented in the Provincial Legislature, not- withstanding their repeategislatnre, and that competent courts and jurisdiciiuns should be established among them for the administration of justice in con- formity to the laws which have been beneficently accorded to them by the mother eoiiniry. Thai while your Petitioners were waiting patiently ill*' ffft it of their repeated solicita- tions for rediis-^ of grievances to be ailiniiiistcred by the Hrovincial Legislature, the Legis- lative (Joiincil, In the ses-i.m of the year 1SJ5, by leeoiiimi-iidatiun of his Exeelleiiey the Governor in Chief, passi^d a bill of the most salutary dcciiption, iniroducing into these townships the English law of dower and conveyance, and making eneumhranecs special, estabhsliin;; also public olhecs therein lor the enrtgislratioii of all mutations of real pro- perty and ol all murlgagcs on the same. That though this bill, cuielully abstaining from ever\ unnecessary innovation, neither disturbed die louiiiie nor toueheil the eusloiiei of the French (Canadians in the seigniorie'i, the ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 337 the House of Assembly, evincing its characteristic disregard tor the claims of your Peti- tioners, neglected to proceed upor the said bill when sent down lor concurrence ; and they are therefore constrr.med to priiy the interference of the Imperial Parliament for the esta- blishment of register ottices as aforesaid. Your Petitioners tiierefore humbly pray that your horiourable House will be pleased to pass an Act to authorize the erection of the townships into a competent number of counties , according to exttiit of territory, to the end that the interest of the population of emi- grant settlers may be provided for by a due proportion of representation equivalent to tiieirjust claims; and also to establish such competent number and description of courts and jurisdictions as the interests of these extensive sections of the p;'0vince and the ends vf justice may require. And further, to establish public offices of registry, for the en- registrution of all acts and deeds conveying or encumbering real propei ty therein. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &.c. &o. N»3. Petition of the Inhabitants of the Townships on S. £ ofSt, Lawrence, in Lower Cabada. Appendix, N* 4. INDENTURE for conveying a certain Tract of Land in the County of Montgomery, now the County of Herkimer. Indenture for con- THIS Indenture mndc the thirteenth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand ^^^^S. ofMont- aeven hundred and ninety-six, between of the city of New York, conn- „o,nery. seller of law, and his wife, and of the same place. ° , , counsellor of luw, and his wife, of the first part ; and of the city of London, in the kingdom of Great Britain, merchant, of the other part ; VVitnesseth, that the said nnd his wife, and and his wife, for nnd in considti ition of the sum of three thousand two hundred pounds, lawful money of the state of New York, to them in hand puid, at or before the ensealing and delivery of these presents, by the suid the receipt whereof is hereby con- fessed and acknowledged; and the said and his heirs, executors and admi- nistrators, for ever released and discharged from the same by these presents; Have granted, bargained, sold, aliened, remised, released, conveyed, assured, enfeoffed and confirmed, and, by these presents, do grant, bargain, sell, alien, remise, release, convey, assure, enfeoff and confirm, fully, freely and absolutely, unto the said and his licirs and assigns for ever. All that certain tract of land situate in the county of Montgomery, now the county of Herkimer, being part uf the Indian purchase made by and and their associates, under a license granted to and and known and distinguished, in a division of the said purchiise into townships, by the name of town- ship Number Pony, hegiiuiing at the most westerly corner of township Number Six, in the north-east bounds of township Number Five, and running thence along the said north- east bounds of township Number Five and the north-east bounds of township Ftrty-one, north thirty degrees, west five hi' '" ♦""' '•"^ them, shall and will, at any time or time* liereafter, Teyine Land in the "P^'* *^^ reasonable request of the said and at the proper cn»ti and county of Moat- charges, in the law, of the said ^ or his heirs and assigns, inuke, do and gomery. execute, or cause or procure to be made, done and executed, all and every sucli further and other lawful and reasonable conveyances and assurances in the law, for the better and more effectaally vesting and confirming the premises hereby intended to be granted, in and to the said his heirs or assigns for ever, as by the said or his heirs or assigns, or his or their counsel, learned in the law, shall be reaioii- ably devised, advised or required : And the said and for them and their heirs, executors and administrators, will warrant, and by tlieto presents for ever defend the above described and released premises, and every part and parcel thereof, unto the said and his heirs and ussigus, auaulutcly for ever. In witness whereof, the parties to these presents have hereunto interchangeably set their hands and seals the day and year first above written. (signed) Signed, sealed, and delivered in the presence of INDORSEMENTS. State of New York, ss : Be it remembered that on the thirteenth day of May, in tlio year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and ninety-six, personally appeared before me one of the masters in Chancery of the state of New Yurk, the within named and his wife, and and his wife, who severally acknowledged that they respectively signed, scaled, exe- cuted and delivered the witliin deed and release as and for their voluntary act and deed, to and for the uses and purposes therein mentioned; and I having exninined the siiiti the wife of the said and the said the wife of the said separately and apart, and privately and apart from their said respective husbands, they severally confessed and acknovviedged that they had executed the said deed freely and without any fear or compulsion of or from their said rekiicctivo husbands, and there being no material rasures or interlineations therein, except ilie one noted, I do allow the same to be recorded. (signed) Received this thirteenth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven liun- dred and ninety-six, the sum of three thousand and two hundred pounds from the within named the within grantee, being the consideration money within men- tioned ; in witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands. (signed) Witnessed by Recorded in the Secretary's office of the State of >'ew York, in book of deed* endorsed q page 362, &c. this seventeenth day of May one thousand seven hundred and Dinety>six. (signed) — _— D. Secrr. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 9VV Appendix, N° 5. LETTERS PATENT to , Township No. 40, in Purchase, in 1772, containing 25,200 Acres. and N'5. Letter* Patent to THE People of the State of New York, by the Grace of God, Free and Independent: To nil to whom these preients shall come, greeting : Know ye, that we have given, granted and confirmed, and by these presents, do give, grant and confirm unto all that certain tract of land situate in the county of Montgomery, being part 6i the Indian purchase made by and and their associates, under a license granted to and and known and distinguished, in a division of the said purchase into townships, by the name of township Number Forty. Beginning at the most westerly comer of township Number Six, in the north-east bounds ot township. Number Five, and running thence along the said north-east bounds of township Number Five, and the north-east bounds of township Number Forty-one, north thirty degrees, west five hundred and twenty-five chains ; then north sixty degrees, east four hundred and eighty chains; then south thirty degrees, east five hundred and twenty-five chains ; and then soutn sixty degrees, west four hundred and eighty chains, to the place of beginning, (all which courses are run as the nee('le pointed m the year 1772), containing twenty-five thousand two hundred acres ; together with all and singular the rights, hereditaments and appurte- nances to the same belonging, or in any wise appertaining, excepting and reserving to ourselves all gold and silver mines, and five acres of every hundred acres of the said tract of land for highways : To have and to hold the above described and granted premises unto the said his heirs and (.ssigns, as a good and indefeasible estate of inheritance, for ever ; on condition nevertheless, that within the term of seven years, to be computed from the first day of January next ensuing the date hereof, there shall be one actual settlement made on the said tract of land hereby granted fur every six hundred and forty acres thereof, otherwise these our letters patent, and the estate hereby granted, shall cease, determine and become void. In testimony whereof, we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the great seal of our said State to be hereunto aflixedk Witness our trusty and well-beloved esquire. Governor of our said State, General and Commander-in-Chief of all the militia, and Admiral of the navy of the same, at our city of New York, this fourteenth day of August, in the year ot our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-six, and in the eleventh year of our independence. Examined, approved of by the Commissioners of the Land-office, and passed the Secretary's office, the 14th day of August 1786. — , Secretary. SEAL: A A RISING SUN: rock: EXCELSIOR, Rising out of the Sea, encircled with encircled with " TUB QAEAT SEAL OF THE " V R U 8 T R A, STATE OP NEW YORK." 1772." Appendix, N' 6. CONVEYANCE for 38,900 Acres of Land, in tlu* Counties of Washington and Clinton, N»G. in the State of New York; July 1769. Conveyance for THIS Indenture, made tlie sixteenth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand Land seven hundred and ninety-five, between and his wife, and his wife, ail of the city and county of Albany, nnd State of New York, of the first part, and of the city of London, in the kingdom of Great Britain, of the other part ; Witncsscth, that the said parlies of the first part, for and in consideration of the sum of ten thousand pounds lawful money of the State of New York to them in hand paid, at or before the ensealing; and delivery of these presents, by liie said the receipt whereof is hereby confessed and acknowledged ; Have qianted, bargained, sold, aliened, remised, released, conveyed, assured, enfeoHed and confirmed, nnd by these- presents do grant, bargain, sell, alien, remise, release, convey, assure, enfeoff and confirm, fully, freely and absolutely unto the said his heirs and assigns for ever, all those two certain tracts of land situate lying and being in the counties of Washington and Clinton, in the State of New York, ll\e jirst beginning at the north-west or most 561). V u 2 northerly 340 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE }J* fl, nortlirrlv corner of n tract of one thousand acres of land granted to the twelfth CoHTeyMico for ''"> «•• July one thounoiid »even hundred and sixty-nine, and running; thence west four 38,900 Acre* of liundrcd iind eighty chains, then south four hundred and eighty chains, tlien east two Laud. Iiuiiclrcd mid Hixty-eight chains, to a tract of fourteen hundred and forty acres of Innd V. ,^ / »iirv('yi'd for then along the same north fifty-two degrees, west eighty- eight chiiinii, north thirty-eigiit ilegrees, east one hundred and twenty chains, south fifty- two deureci), cast one hundred and twenty chains, and south thirty-eight degrees, west iiinely-six chain*, then east one hundred and twelve chains, to Luke tieorge, then northerly along the sMinc to n tract of six hundred acres of land granted to then nioiiu thp xainc north fifty-two degrees and twenty minutes, west eighty-four chains, and iiorlii tJiiriy-sevcn degrees and forty minutes, east eighty chains, to a tract of land of eight hundred acre« granted to the said then along the same north fifty-twu (le(;r<'i's and twtnty-niinutes, west thirty-three chains and forty-five links, north thirty-aeven dfgrt'ei and forty minutes, east eighty-nine cluiins and forty-five links, south fifty-twa degree* and twenty minutes, east eighty-nine chains and forty-five links, and south tnirty> H'ven tiegrees and forty minutes, west eighty-nine chains and forty-five links, to the said tract of nix hundred acres, then along the same south fifty-two degrees and twenty minutes, east thirty chaitH to the said lake, then northerly along the same to a tract of land granted to then along the same south eighty-eight degrees, west four cliains and north five degrees, east one hundred and fifty-one chains, to a tract of land granted to tiicn along the same, and along n tract granted to north eighty-five degrees, west eighty chains, and north nve degrees, east eighty chains, to the said tract granted to then along the same north sixty-two degrees, west one hundred and ten chains, and north twenty-eiglit degrees, east fifty -eight chains, to the place of heginning \ excepting and reserving out of the same so much of the patents granted to and as is comprehended within the siimc, containing, t'xrluiiive of the said exception and reservation, twenty-two thousand and one hundred acres. The Hfund tract, heginning ut the south-east corner of the said first tract on the west sliore of the said Lake George, and running thence west one hundred and twelve chains to the trnct of fourteen hundred and forty acres of land surveyed for then niong the same south thirty-eight degrees, west twenty-four chains, and north fifty-two degrees, west thirty-two chains, to the said first tract, then along the south bounds thereof nnu the same continued west two hundred and eighty-eight chains, then south four hundred uiid eighty chains, then east twenty-one chains, to u tract of land granted to then along the same north forty-two degrees and twenty minutes, east sixty- three chains, north twenty degrees and thirty minutes, east sixty-six chains, south seventy- four degrees and thirty minutes, cast fifty chains, south twenty-three degrees and thirty minutes, west sixty-^ix chains, and south forty-two degrees and twenty minutes, west Iwelvi! chains, then east two hundred and sixty-hvc chains, to the suid Luke George, then iioriiierly along the same to lands granted to then along ilie same north fifty-two degrees and twenty minutes, west one hundred and twenty-four chains, north thirty-seven dcgreeH and forty minutes, east sixty-one chains and fifty links, north fifty-two (legrei-s and twenty minutes, west one liiindred chains, north thirty-seven degrees and forty iiiinuies, east one hundred chains, south fifty-two degrees and twenty minutes, west one hundred chains, south thirty-seven degrees and forty minutes, west tburleen chains, and Noiith fifty-two degrees and twenty minutes, cast »ixty chains, to the suid Lake George, then nortlierly along the same to a tract of land granted to then along Uie mimi', and along a trnct of land granted to north thirty-six degrees and thirty niiniites, wcKt sixty-six chains, south eighty-eight degrees and thirty minutes, west •ixlien i:liainK, north one degree and thirty minutes, west seventeen chains, and north iieveniy-one degrees, east sixty chains, to the said L:ike, and then northerly along the same to the place of heginning, containing seventeen thousand and six hundred acres ; which said two triiuts of land were granted to the said the said and hy letters patent hearing date the third day of March, in the year of our \*\ti\ one thousand seven hundred and ninety-five, herewitli delivered up; also a deed of cotiveyuiicc from the said and his wife, to the said and bearing date the twenty-second day of April, and twentieth day of May in lliis present year, likewise herewith delivered up, reftreiice to the said patent and deed being had will more fully appear : and also excepting and reserving out of the said two trm^tt oflaiid, one tract of six hundr>;d acres conveyed to and ; nUo oii(' Killer tract of two hundred acres conveyed to the said and subject iifvertlii lens to tlie conditions, covenants and agreements expressed in the patent aforesaid : Tiigi'thcr with all and singular the appurtenances, piivileges and advantages whatsoever, iinio the said uhove-meniioned and described premises in any wise appertaining or be- Jiiiiuing, and the reversion and reversions, reniuiuder and remainders, rents, issues and piolili. llitrcof ; and also all the estate, right, title, interest, property, claim and demand whiilsoevcr of the said parties of the first purl : To have and to hold tlic said two tracts of land with the a|ipurtennnccs (hubjeet to the exceptions, reservations and conditions afore- said) to the said his heirs and assigns, for the only proper use, benefit and behoof of the said his heirs, (executors, administrators or assigns for ever. And the said iiarties of tlie first fur themselves, their heirs, executors and admi- Jiimraiiirii, doth hereby covenant, promise and agree to and with the said ills lulls, executors, administrators and assigns, liiat th<'y the suid parties of the first part, 9 iiU ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 341 at the time oftlic eniealing ond delivery of these prcaenis, arc lawfully aeised in their own N* 6. right of in and to the snid two tracts of land hereby conveyed, with the appurtenances, and Conveyance for have in themselves good right, full power and lawful authority to grant and convey the 38.9"o Acrei of same (with the exceptions and reservations aforesaid) to the said his heirs \f^\ , and assigns, as of a good, sure, perfect, absolute and indefeasible estate of inheritance in "^ the law in fee simple, and also that he the said his heirs or assigns, shall and may from time to time, and at all times hereafter, peaceably and quietly occupy, possess and enjoy the before-described premises, with the appurtenances, subject to the exceptions, i .', conditions and reservations aforesaid. And the said parties of the first part, for themselves, their heirs, executors and administrators, engage to warrant, and by these presents for ever • » to defend the above-described and released premises, and every part and parcel thereof. lu witness whereof, the said parlies of the iirst part have hereunto set their hands and seals the day and year first above written. L.S. L.8. I.. S. L.«. INDORSEMENTS. Be it remembered, th t on the seventeenth day of June, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-live, appeared before nic one of the masters in Chancery for the State of New York, and his wife, and and his « ife, who severally acknowledged that they signed, sealed and delivered this instrument for \he purposes therein mentioned ; and the said and being by ine privately and apart examined from their husbands, respectively acknowledged that they had signed, sealed and delivered the same without any threat, fear or compulsion of their said respective husbands ; and I having examined the said instrument, and finding no razures or interlineations therein (except those noted), do allow the same to be recorded. The within Indenture of Release, signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of and his wife, and his wife^ to conveyance for 38,900 acres land. — 16th June 1705. Recorded in the Secretary's office of the State of New York in book of deeds MR endorsed q > page 359, &c. this i6ih day of May 1 796. D. Secretary. 3 Appendix, N* 7. " POPULATION of Lower Canada ; taken from a printed Copy of the Census published in i8s7 C'uanlici. 1. Gaspi'- 9. Cornwallis - 3. Devon 4. Hertford 5. Dorchester - 6. Buckingham Townships. 4i9>9 ^49 6,450 Sei|;nories. liidUnt, i)r luhnbitants of liidiin I.inds ur Villaijcs. >.>25 30,012 "i934 14.044 « 9.458 27,03a Totol Popi!la(ion. 381 40 6.4«5 30,01 i H,934 14.044 '9.707 33,5" ■a S II Uu3 OBSERVATIONS. Of the places mentioned in the census referred to, which are in the seignories and which are in the townships of Gaspv is often not stated; but: the population, it is supposed, may be estimated as approximating the numbers given for the townships and seignories respectively. This county IS believed to be chiefly peopled by emi- granu from the British Isles and their descend- ants, and by its geographical position adapted to form part of New Brunswii k. None of the townships in this county are mentioned in the census. ditto. ditto. Several of the townships in this county are not named in the census. The greater part of the townships in this county are not named in the census. S4» APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE I Couiui*>< Townslilpi. 7. Richelieu 8. Kedford 9.544 10,78a g. Surrey 10. Kent - 11. Huntingdon l«. City and - -l^ County of Montreal J 13. York • 14. Effingham • 15. Leinstcr iS. Warwick 17. Town of Three"] Rivers and County^ of St. Maurice -J 18. HaiDpahirc - jt). City and - -1 County of Quebec J 30. Northumberland - at. Orleans 5.745 2,876 484 II Seignnri(«. 46,719 Hl,(>73 Indiana* I ur I '■< , I Inliabiunlii '""' uf inilillll In I .• Lun.l, or jP"!'"''"'"- ii>573 10,890 31.433 25.97fi"l u.iogj aC,<,i3 >4.9»> >9.273 >5-9«4 9,9061 iS.iCoJ 13.3«« 9a,09l"| 6,609 ! 11,910 4,093 41,110 379.373 - , >>,573 . j 10,890 9,408 39,586 37.085 30,096 > 4-931 >9.757 «5.935 9 1, 066 13'3>3 98,693 11,'iio 4,092 169 36,936 i 93.H54 3,99> I4'^'!.373 i 50 OnSERVATIONS. Some townthips in thfii county, known to be inhabited, are not named in the ceniui, St. Armand (ahhoiigh one of the feudal grants) having been settled more than 3c years ago by old loyaliaU, and having been sold in liirms exempt from seignorini rights, (an exemption which, however, could not bo rendered legal belore tliu passing the Canada Tenures Act,) and having united in the petitions of the town- ships to the Imperial I'nrhanicnt, as considering thini-elves rather to bilong to those than the seigimriiil portions of the province, its popula- tion is here added to that of the townships, as is also that of St. Thomas and St. George, or ('aldwell's Manor. There are, besides, many English in the seignories. There arc no townsliips in this county. ditto. Among the inhabitants of the seignories in this county many thousands -"c of Uritisli birth ov descent. There are no townships in this county. The census referred to does not distinguish between the English and I'rench inhabitants; but it is estimated that the English inhabitants in the city and county are between io,uoonnd 15,000. 'I'he greater part of the townships in this county are not named in the census. There are several thousands of British origin in the KMgnories. None of the townships appear named in the census of this county. Hut one of the townships is named in the census of this county. The seignories contain numbers of English inhabitants. ditto. None of the townships arc mentioned in the census. The seignories and town contain coat siderable numbers of English. The map does not represent any townships as being yet laid out in tliis county. The names of the townships in this county are not given in the census. There are many thou> sands of Dritish origm in the city and county. ' No names of townships are given. Thiscnuntyconsi'itsonlyof onesmallseignory. s- The Sf/j^-noriVs which include the cities and most of the villages, are estimated to contain nearly .fjOiOoo inhabitants of British origin. However, deducting only 4'„t]uo from the seigniiiies as their proportion of inhabitants of British origin, the statement of the population of Lower Canada will stand thus: I'reiich opulutlon, 334,279; Indians, half-brceils, \c. inliubiting Ind.an lands, 9,991 ; English, 8(>,iiu; "otiil,4U3,;)73. The pcipulation of the counties of Orleans, Nortlunnbcrland, Hampshire. Devon, Quebec, Surrey and Kent, taken together, are by tile census minihered at ()i,50'4; hut they send la'venteen members to the l,e^islature: while the English population of between So and 90,000, from its rfistrihution and'tiie state of the representation, can be considered to send only one, viz. from ( iaspe ; whereas, in llie same proportion, it would be entii!"(l to send sixteen. There is, in fact and in truth, no proportionate representation of the respective popul'lion or varied interests, ineluding the commercial.- which exist in Lower Canada ; but it is, in fact, drawn from the feudal and anti-tnninu reial portion of the territory. The ratio of the rate of increase of the English population during the two or three years which have elapsed since the census, iius been, and must continue, greater than that of the French, in conse(|uenie of innnigration ; and it is to be recollected that several of the inhabited townships arc not noticed in the census. . S.'^Kiit;T j' be he.) (by (■ins lion «.) vn- Ithu Tila- I 08 I or Uliy I'lis 1 or Ill's o ^, the he lia Coinnioni I loute of Assembly of Upper Canada, 182G. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OP CANADA. 343 Appendix, N* 8. .. , • . -'' RESOLUTIONS relative to the appropriation of the Clergy Renerves, paiied by the N*e. Comtnons House of Assembly of Upper Canada, in the 3d Session and gtli Parliament Redolullons of the of 7 Geo. IV.; 22d December 1826. Extracted from the Journals, pp. 23, 34. 1. — Resolved, Thnt the despatch of the Right honourable Earl Bathurst, His Majesty's principal Secretary of Stite for the Colonies, communicated to this House on the 13th instant by his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to the address to His Majesty uf this House at its last session, respecting; the clergy reserves, is unsatisfactory to tnis Assembly, inasmuch us it is silent on a material part of the respectful representation of this House contained in the said address. 5 — Resolved, That the construction given to the Imperial Act, which appropriates the clergy reserves to individuals connected with the church of England, and the dctermi- mination of the cleray of that church to withhold from all other denominations of Pro- testants residing within the province, the enjoyment of any part of the benefits arising, or which may arise from the lands so set apart, call fur the immediate attention of the Pro- vincial Legislature to a subject of such vital interest to the public in general, and that such claim by the Protestant episcopal church is contrary to the spirit and meaning of the 31 Geo. 3, and most injurious to the interests and wishes of the province. Yeas 28. — Nays 3. — Majority 25. 6. — Resolved, That a comparatively small proportion of the inhabitants of Upper Canada are members of the church ot England, and therefore ought not in justice to desire the sole enjoyment, by their clergy, ot all the adventages which these lands present, to the exclusion of their fellow subjects, although equally loyal and firm in their attachment to His Majesty's Government and the Constitution. 7. — Resolved, That in a thinly inhabited country, such as Upper Canada, where the means of moral instruction to the poor are not easily obtained, it is the bounden duty of the Pudiament to afford every assistance within its power towi.rd8 the support of education. 8. — Resolved, That the present provision for the support of district and common schools is quite inadequate to the wants of the people, and ought by every reasonable exertion to be increased, so as to place within tlie reach of the poorest inhabitant the advantages of a decent education. 9. — Resolved, That it is the opinion of a great proportion of the people of this pro- vince that the clergy lands, in place of being enjoyed by the clergy of an inconsiderable part of the population, ought to be disposed of, and the proceeds of their sale applied to increase the provincial allowance for the support of district and common schools, and the endowment of a provincial seminary for learning, and in aid of erecting places of public worship for all denominations of Christians. Yeas 31..— Nays 2. — Majority 29. Resolved, That the number of the Protestant episcopal church in the provinces bears a very small proportion to the number of oiher Christians, notwithstanding the pecuniary aid long and exclusively received from the benevolent society in England by the members of that church, and their pretensions to a monopoly of the clergy reserves. Yeas 30. — Nays 3. — Majority 27. Appendix, N* 9. THE Fourth Article of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, concluded between the Kings N" 9. of Great Britain and France, on the iqtli February in the Year 1763; containing Fourth Article of the Cession of Canada to the Crown of Great Britain. HIS most Christian Majesty renounces all pretensions which he has heretofore formed, or might form, to Nova Scotia or Acadia, in all its parts, and guarantees the whole of it, and all its dependencies, to the King of Great Britain. Moreover his most Christian Majesty cedes and guarantees to his snid Britannic Majeaty, in full right, Canada, with all its dependencies, as well as the island of Cape Breton, and all the other islands and coasts in the Gulf and River of St. Lawrence, and in general every thing that depends on the said countries, lands, islands and coasts, witli tlie sovereignty, property, possession, and all rights, acquired by treaty or otherwise, which the most Christian King and the Crown of France have had till now over the said countries, islands, knds, places, coasts and their inhabitants ; so that the most Christian King cedes and makes over the whole to the said King and to the Crown of Great Britain, and that in the most ample manner and form, without restriction, and without any liberty to depart from the said guaranty under any pretence, or to disturb Great Britain in the possessions above mentioned. j/Sq. U u 4 Hi* Peace, between Greit Britain and France, on the lOth Feb. 1763. 344 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE N'y. Fourth Article of Peace, between Great Uritain aiul France, on the loth Feb. 1763' V, nic Miijesty on his »iile ngrcc^ to ginnl the liberty of the Catholic rilidon to IS of Cnnmln; he will conteqin ntly give the most effcclmil order* tliiit hia V 10. Proclamation of His Britimnic the iiilmbitiinis IKW Koiiiim Ciitholie subject* may profetn the wortliip of their religion uteording to the rites of the Rouilsh rhiirch, ix» fur as the laws of (i rent Uritiiin permit. His Hrilunnic Majesty further iiurecs, that the French inhubitants or others who hml bccu the Kubjecis of the most Christian Majesty in Canada, may retire with all safety and free- dom wherever they sliall think proper, and nuiy sell (heir estates, provided it he to huhjcets of his Hritnnnic Majesty, and bring nway their ell'eets as well as their persons, without being restrained in their eniigrntion under any pic'ence whatsoever, except that of debts or of criminal prosecutions : the term limited for thu! emigration shall be tixed to the space of eighieeii months, to be computed from the day of the exchatige of the ratification of thv present treaty. Appendix, N" 10. PROCLAMATION of the King of Great Biitain, dated 7th October 1763. By the King. — A Proclamation. GEORdE R. WHEREAS We have taken into our Royal consideration the extensive ond valuable acquisitions in America secured to our Crown by the late definitive treaty of peace, con- Uie Kine of Great eluded at Paris the loth day of February last ; and hcing desirous that all our loving sub- il'n" *T o jtcls, as well of our kingdoms us of our colonies in America, may avail themselves with all 7tn October 1783^ convenient speed of the great benefits and advantages which must accrue therefrom to ^~~"~^-'"~ their C4jmniei'cc, manufactures and navigation; we have thought fit, with the advice of our privy council, to issue this our Koyal Proclamation, hereby lo publish and declare to all our loving subjects, that wc have, wiili the advice of our said privy council, granted our letters patent under our great seal of Great Britain, to erect wiihin the countries and islands ceded and confirmed to ns by the said treaty, four distinct and separate governments, styled and called by the names of Quebec, East Florida, West Florida and Grenada, and limited and bounded us follows ; viz. Firstly, the government of Quebec, bounded on the Labrador coast by the river St. John, and from thence by u line drawn from the head of that river through the lake of St. John, 10 the south end of the lake Nipissiin, from whence the said line crosses the river St. Lawrence and the lake Chauiplain, forty-five degrees of north latitude, passes along the high lands which divide the rivers that empty themselves into the said river St. Law- rence ii'oin those which fall into the sea, and aUo along the north coast of the Bay dcs Chalcurs, and the coast of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, to Cape Hosiers, and from thence crossing the mouth of the river St. Lawrence, by the west end of the island of Anlicosti, terminates at the ui'orcsaid river St. John. Secondly, the (loveinnient of East Vlurida, bounded to the westward by the Gulf of Mexico, and the Apalacliicola river ; to ilie northward, Ly a line drawn frmii that part of the said river where the Catahouchee and Flint rivers meet, t;> the source of St. Mary'.s river, and by the course of the said river to the Atlantic Ocean; md to the east and south, by the Atlantic Deeun and the Gulf of Florida, including all the isiands witliin six leagues of the sea coast. Thirdly, liie government of West Florida, bounded to the soutiuvard by the Gulf of Mexico, including all islands within six lcat;ues of the coast, from tir: river Apulacliicolu to lake Ponchartrain ; to the westward, by tlie said lake, the lake Mauiepus, and the river Mississipi; to the northward, by the line drawn east from that part of he river Mississipi which lies in thirty-one degrees north latitude, lo the river Apahichicoli or CutishouchC'e ; and to the eastward, by the said river. Fourthly, the govcrnineiit of Grenada, comprehending the islands of that name, toge- ther with the Grenadines, and the islands of Dominica, St. Vincent and Tobago. And to the end that the oiicn and free fishery of our subjects may he extended to and carried on upon the coast of Lubrador and the adjacent islands, we have 'bought fit, with the advice of our said privy council, lo put all that coast, from ihe ri\cr .St. John'.s to Hudson's Straits, together with the islands of Anlicosti and the Magdeleine, and all smaller islands lying upon the said coast, under the cure and inspection o) our governor of Newfoundland. V\ e have also, with the advice of our privy council, thought fit to ann.'x the islands of St. John and Cape Breton, or Isle Koyale, with the lesser islands aujucent thereto, to our goTernmenl of Nova Scotia. We have also, with the advice of our privy council aforesaid, annexed to our province of (jeorgia all the lands lying between the rivers Attanialia and St. Mary's. And whereas it will greally contribute lo tlu! speedy sealing our said new j|;overninent», that our loving subjects should be iidormed of uur piilernal care for the security of the 'iberly and properties of iIiojC who are and shall become inhabitants thereof, we have thought lit to publish and declare by this our proelumaiion, that we have in t>\u letters patent under our great seal of Great Britain, by which the said governments are con- siilutcd. •I :i a (J t! i I i.^BHPPF? ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CAVada. 345 N'lo. Proclamation of ■lituted, given cxprcM power and direction to our govcrnori of our luid culonie* rc- •peclively, llmt lo loon us tlio itutc und circuinituncei of the *aid colonic* will admit ihercot', lliey dIiiiII, with the advioe nnd connent of the inembcm of our council, lumuion jhoKilM of Great and call general HMcmblieii within] (he laid govcrnmenti respectively, in auch manner and Britain dated form ai if uacd nnd directed in ihone culonici and provinces in Ainericu which are under 7th Oc'tob«r 1783. our inimediute government ; and we have iiUo given power to the inid governon, with the consent of our said councils and the repreHcntativcii of the people, hu to be sum- moned as aforesaid, to niak*', constitute und ordnin laws, statutes anil ordinances for the public peace, welfare und good government of our said colonies, and of the people und in- Imbitunts thereof, us near us may be agreeable to the laws of England, und under such regulations and restrictions as are used in other colonies : and in the mean time, and tintil auch assemblies can be culled us uforcsaid, oil persons inhabiting in or resorting to our Huid colonies muy cunfiilc in our ruyul proiectiuti for the enjoyment of the bencht of our laws of our realm of England; fur wliicli purpose we have given powti' under our great seal lo the governors' of unr suid colonies respectively, to erect and constitute, with tiie advice of our said council rcs|>ectively, courts of jiulicuture nnd public justice within our Huid colonies, for the heuring und determining of causes, as well criminal ai civil, accord- ing to law nnd equity, und as near us may be agreeable to the laws of England, with liberty to nil persons who may think ihemielves aggrieved by the sentence of such courts, in all civil cases, to appeal, under the usual limitations and restrictions, to us in our privy council. Wc have ulso tiiouiilit (it, with tiic advice of our privy council as aforesaid, to give untj the governors nnd councils of uur suid three new colonies upon the continent, full power nnd authority to settle and agree with the inhabitants of our said new colonies, or any other persons who shull resort tiiereto, for such lands, tenements and hereditaments as are now or hereafter shall be in our power to dispose of, and them lo grunt to any such person or persons upon such terms, und under wuch moderate quit-rents, services and acknowledgments as iinve been appointed and settled in other colonics, nnd under such other conditions us shall nppear to ns to be necessary and expedient for the advantage of the grantees, and tliu improvement and settlement of our said colonies. And whereas wc are desirous upon nil occasions to testify our royal sense and approbation of the conduct nnd bravery of the ofRcers und soldi(;rs ot our armies, and to reward the same, we do hereby comniund nnd empower our governors of our said three new colonies, and other uur governors of our several provinces of the continent of North America, to grant without fee or reward, to such reduced olhcers and soldiers us have served in North America during the lute war, and are actually residing there, and shall personally apply for the same, the following quantities of land, subject at tlie expiration of ten years to the same <]uit-rents as other lands are subject lo in the province within which they are granted, as also subject to the same conditions of cultivation und improvement, viz. : To every person having the rank of a field-ofHcer - - 5,000 acres. To every captain -------- 3,000 - To every subaltern or stafl'-officer . - . - . 2,000 - To every non-commissioned officer ----- 200 - To every private man ..----. 50- Wc do likewise authorise and re(|uire the governors and commanders in chief of all our said colonies upon the continent of North America to grant the like quantities of land, and upon the sume conditions, to such reduced ofticers of our navy of like rank us served on board our ships of wur in North America at the times of the reduction of Louisbourg and Quebec in the late war, and who shall personally apply to our respective governors for such grunts. And whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our interest and the security of our colonies, that the several nntions or tribes of Indians with whom we are connected, and who live under our protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the possession of such parts of our dominions nnd territories as not having been ceded to us arc reserved to them, or any of them, as their hunting grounds; we do therefore, with the advice of our privy council, declare it to be our royal will and pleasure, that no governor or cominantler iii chief in any of our colonies of Quebec, East Florida, or West Florida, do assume, upoji any pretence whatever, to grant warrants of siirv';y or pass any patents for lands beyond the bounds of their respective governments, as described in their commissions ; ns also that no governor or commander in chief of our otiier colonies or plantations in America, do presume for the present, and until our further pleasure be known, to grant warrants of survey or pass any patent for Innds beyond the heads or sources of any of the rivers whicti fall into the Atlantic ocean from the west or nurth-uest ; or upon any lands whatever which not h'jving been ceded to or purchased by us as aforesaid, are reserved to the said Indians, or any of them. And we do further declare it to be our royal will ami jiieasurc, for the present as aforesaid, to reserve under our sovereignty, protection and duminioii, for the use of the said Indians, all the land and territories not included within the limits nnd territory granted to the Hudson's Hay Company ; as also all the land and territories lying to the westward of the sources of the rivers whicii fall into the sea from the west and north-v/est as aforesaid: and we do hereby strictly forbid, on pain of our displeasure, all our loving subjects from making niiy purchases or settlements whatsoever, or taking possession of any of the lauds above reserved, without our special leave und licence for that purpose first obtained. 5611. Xx Aod m&tt-^ ,14<5 APl'ENniX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTKE N»io. And »r Ho further itriclly enjoin nnd requirp nil porions whntaoevrr who hnve fillier ProcUmMion of wiHully or iiiii(lvfrlLiiily it«*nn-n ihem«el< m upon «iiy liiiidt within liic ooiititrieii aboTe th<> King of Great dMcribrd, or u|«iii «iiy other inncU which not liiivinR hocn cfdcd to or piirchiiMd by un. Kritain, dated 7th October 1783. nrc mill retcrvrd to the Nitid lndimi.4 n« nforetaid, forthwith to riiudvc thciimclvcn from »ufh NelllenuMits. And whrrrii" Rrrnl frniidii nnd nbii«e« hnve bcpn committed in the piircliniinK Inndit of the Indinns, to llic grent prtjiidiceof our inlerciU, nnd to the j;rent diisnti^fnciion of tin- Miid IndinnH: in order, therefore, to prevetit itiieh iiTe){iiliirilieii for tin- future, and to the end ihnt the lnlic meeting or assembly of the siiid Indians, to be held for that purpose by the governor or commander in chief of our colony respce of the said Indians, to seize and apprehend all persons whatever who, standing cliarg<'d with treason, misprision of treason, murder, or other felonies or inis>lemeanors, shall fly from jiistiee, aiul take refuge in the said territory, and to senil lliem under a proper guard to the colony where the crime wns cummiited of which (hey shall stand accused, in order to tak their trial for the same. (j'iven at our Court at .St, James's, the 7th day of October 1763, in the third year ol' our leigii. — God vave the King. •I 8 P •I n f< I' u u J ■ I ( I ApptncHx, N" 11. PKOCLAMA'I'ION of Sir Alured Clarke, Lieutenant Ciovernor of Canada, dated 71b May 171).!. Alured Clarke : K' n. ni",OU(iK the Third, by the grace of God of Great Britain, I'rance nnd Ireland, Procluinntion of King, Defender of the l''aith, i!ic. : To nil our loving subjects wlioin these presents may Sir Alured Clarke, concern : Whereas in pursuance of an net of Parliament lately made and provided, passed dated ;ib M:iy in the llli^ty-li.^t vear of our reign, aiid^of aullioiily by us givi n lor that purpuse, our late province of Qaehcc is beemiie divided into the t\> o provinces of Upper Canada aiul Lower Canada, and our lieutenant-governor o( the sai;' provnice of Lower Canada, by power from us derived, is auihoiized, in the absence of our rigiit trusty and well-beluved Guv Lonl Doicliesifr, eii|itain-L;encral .and govcrnor-in-chief of our said province of Losvcr Canada, lo divide the saiil province ot Lower Canada into (listricts, counties, cir- cles, or towns and townships, for tin; purpose . f ellectualing the intent of (he said act of Pjirllaiiic.it, and to declare und appoint the number of reppseutulivt s to be cliusen by each to serve in the assembly ol the said province; Know y<', therefore, that our trusty and well-beloved Alured Clarke, our lieutenant-governor ot our said province of Lower Caiuida, in the absi iice of our said governor-in-cbief, halli and by ibis our proclamatina doth divide the said province of Lower Cnnadu into counties, cities and towns, and declare and appoint the number of the representatives of llu'in, and each of them, to be as lieiciiial'ler limited, named, declaied and appointed ; that is 10 say, thai the first of the »aid ccmniies be nil that pait of the said province on the southerly side of the river of St. Lawreiii-e, imw called the district of Gaspe, as described in our rovul proclamation iil)l"r the great seal of our late province of Quebec, bearing date tlie twenty-fourth day of .liilv in the twenty-eiuhth y< ar uf our reign; and that the second of the said coiinties, 10 be called Coinwallis, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the same side of the river St. Lawrence, belwcen the said county of (ia>p('! and u line running sniilh-easl fioin the westerly angle of a tract of land commonly culled the seig- niory of Mr. Lauclilan Smith, or St. Ann's, together witii the islands of St. Uarnaby und Bic, and nil other islands in the said river nearest to the said couuty, and in the whole or ill part fronting the same; and tiiat the third of tlie said counties, to be called Devon, 3 ihall >v^wt. ON THE CIVIL COVERNMFNT Ol' CANADA. 547 •lull romprclieiid nil timl pnrt of our Mtiil province on ihr lanie tide n( llii> iitiil rivrr of N' ii, tit. Liiwictici', ticiwci'n ihu wcittcrly 'iile of ilie mid county of Curnwallni itiid ii line I'rMJauNiiUiu of puraiit-l tlirri'io running Ironi the westerly ihe ithindii in lliii river Ni, l,nwrt>ni>» d«la4 71I1 May ni-Hrr>t to the iiiid I'ounty, nnd in the wliidc or in pnrt froniini< tin- •inne t and llmi ilia I?!;'* fourth of the oiid counliin, lu he I'nIIrd Hertford, ihall cotnprrhend all ihiii pint ol our iniil > ■ ' ■ province nil the noiitlierly kiile of the auid river Mt. Lnwrcner, hi'tween the wruti'rly a|d« of the iiaid county of Devon nnd h line pariillel tlierelo runninji; from the iiorth-tilerly auxin of the nforetiaid tract of l.iiid called the ncigniory of Lauzon, or the neigniory of I'oiiit liovy. together with all iHlundt in the said river St. Lawrence ncnient to ihu aaiil county, itiid in the whole or in part fronting the same; and that the sixth of the aaid counlio, in Im called Duekinghamsliire, shall eoinprelieiid all t'lnt pArt of our saici provinen on lll« southerly ^ide of ihe said river St. Lawrence, between the westerly bideol'ihf miid ciitiiily of Dorchester and u line piirallel thereto running from the norih-eniterly aiiglDofii Iraoi of land coniiiionly called the seigniory of Soiel, together with all the island* in (lie salll river St. Lawrence (or lake Si. i*eier) nearest to the said county, nnd in the ivliole or IM part fronting the same; ami iliat the seventh of the said counties, to bn culled llii'lielieui shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the southerly side of llir< sNifi river St. Luwrcnco, beiwcen the westerly side of the said county of Jiuckiiighiiinsliirii iitiil the following lines, that is to say, a line running south-east from the we:iieny angjn of n Iruct of land commonly called the seigniory of St. Durs, until the same shall iiiler»< isliuuls in the said river Sorel, Richelieu or Chambly, nearest to the laid coiiiiiy, iitiil in the whole or in part opposite thereto on that side; and that the, eleventh ol llli' alilrf oouiiiies, to be called Uuniingilon, shall comprehend all the rest of our auid proviiii'D of Lower Canada on the southerly side of the said river St. Lawrence, together wIlli nil the islandH in the said river St. Lawrence and in the river Sorel, otiierwicii ciilli'd |Im< Richelieu or Chambly, nearest to tlie said county; and that the twelfth of (he aitid counties, to be called i ork, siiall comprehend all that part of our said province of Lower Canada on the noithrrly side of the Haid river St. Lawrence, between iIih upperiiioai limits thereof and a line running west north-west from the soutii-easterly iinKle uf 11 IfHM of land commonly called the seigniory of Dumunt, together with the iiilaiiiU of IVrirt and Bizarre, and all the other islands in the rivers St. Lawrence and Oiiowii iiriircat to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same, exeeptiiig ihe j»liiiiil>i of Jesus and Montreal; and that the thirteenth of the said counties, to be culled MiMit^ real, sliall comprehend the island of Montreal, including likewise hucIi part tin r^of na shall be comprehended within the limits of the city and town of Montreal heiismnflrr described ; and that the fourteenth of the said counties, to be called Klliiii^lmiii, ithnll comprehend all that part of our said province on the northerly tide of ihu rivt^ra tit, 569. X X 2 LiHvrciiee ■i-'-rsaB/nst 0>>fi'*i:t • w« APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM JIIILECT COMMFTTEE K'li. ProclMiwtiM of Sir Mured Clarke, doted 7th May 179a. \ , -/ Lawrence and Ottnwa, between the snilerly aide nf tlio nroreanid county of York and ii line parallel thereto riuining; from the i*oiilli-uiiil)liit from the south-easterly angle of a tract of land commonly called llif «ui(igniory of llHllscnn, logethrrwiih all the i^ -l» in the said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said coniiiy, iinil in tiie whole or in part nfing the same, including within the said county llie iriict til land I'oiiipreliended witliir i:.e limim ..f tiie town and borough of Three Kivers hirelnafirr ilmcribeil ; and that the eighteenth u\ the said counties, to be called Hampshire, shall compiehcnd nil that part of our said province on ihe noriheriy side of the river St, l^uwnnue, lalwirn the easterly side of the said county of St. Nluurice and a line painlli'l tliefflti ruiining from tl-.e south-westerly angle of a tract of land commonly called the leiKiiiory iil' Ml, (liibriel, together with all the islands in the said river St. Liiwreiiee nearest lo ihi* liiiiil coiinly, and in the whole or in part fronting the same; and that the nineleunili of llii< said counties, to bo called Quebec, shall comprehend all that part of our said province tin the iiorthurly siile of the river St. Ljiw- leiice, between the easterly side of the naiil couiiiy of linnipshire and u line running north north-west from the south-wesu'rly angle of a liact of Ian \ commonly called the seigniory of Beaupre, near the mouth >il the river MontiniMcncy, togt-tbcr with all the islands in the 3uid river St. Lawrence nearest to the MiitI county, anil in the whole or in part fronting the same (except the island of Urlean*), iiicliiilinit wllltin the said county the tract of land comprehended within the limits of the city and town ol Wuebec hereinatter described ; and that the twentieth of the said eounlieii, lo Iw cullfd Norlhuinberland, shall comprehend alt the rest of our said province on the northerly side of llie xvv.\ St. Lawrence and on the easterly side of the snid county of Qrebec, logellnr with the island of L'ondre and all the other islands in the said river St. Lawt'eucn ncuii'st to the said county, and in the whole or in part frimting the same, except \\w ikliiml ol Orleans; and that ihc twenty-first of the said counties, to be calk'd Orleans, shall t'oiiipiehi'lld the said island of Orleans: .\nd that the first of the said cities, to be called (its herelnd nil the Test of the said tract or pioinoniory ; ol ilio sii'iinil nl the sikiI citio!>, tn be callcJ (as here- tofore) the city and town of Montieul, sliiiU i'iiin|;i'eliriHl all thai tract or pun.d of land (being part and parcel of llie uforosuid couiily ol .VlonUi'al) IkhiikU'iI in front b,' the river St. Lawrence, and in the rear by a hiii' panilli'l In the gnicrnl eoinse of llie ti rtitication walls on the rear of the said town, at ilii iliatunre of ino clniiiiH from the gate commonly called the St. Lawrence (iaie, and lioiiiiiliil on di*' iiisierly nr luncnnost sid ' i>y u line running parallel to the general enntse nl ilir Initiliciiiion walls ou the eusicriy or lotvermnst side of tiic said town, at the iliatano' nl imi rliaiiis lioiii the gate towards tl e Quebec Hub.Tbs cuininoii'^ called tlio Qui'lxe (iale, uliil nii ilir (Vesteily or uppermost siiie by a line running parallel to the general enurso ol ihe lolliliniliiiii walls on the westerly or uppermost side of the said town, at the dintanee ol Hm rhallis Irniii llio gale towards the St. Anthony suburbs commonly called the KeeuU-ts fiate ; and that llu: saiil city and town of Montr-'al be, and the same is hereby declared l<* lie diviiliil into two purls, In be called respect vely the Easterly Ward and Wesii riy Ward, and llnit the said jjisierly Ward shall comprehend all the easterly or lowermost part ol the sanl iiiii'i iiliovr drseribed, bminded on the westerly or upperiiiost side by a line running ihi<.ugh the iindillo of the main streia of the Si. Law- rence re tb t» 71 ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 349 rciice suburbs and the continuation thereof, and through the middle of the street called N* 1 1. the Congregation-Htreet, Notre Dauie-itreet, and along the middle of the same westerly to Proclamation of the middle of St. Joseph-street, and thence down the middle of St. Jose^jh-street to'the Sir Alured Clarke river; and that the said Westerly Ward shall comprehend nil the rest of the said tractor dated 7th Mav parcel of land within the Jimits above described : And that the first of the said towns or i79Si. boroughs, to be called the town or borough of Three Rivers, Hhall comprehend all that tract or parcel of land (being part and parcel of the aforesaid county of St. Maurice) bounded in the front by the river of St. Lawrence, and in the rear by a line parallel to the general course of the said front, at the distance of 160 chains from the westerly point of the mouth of the river of St. Maurice, on the easterly s^ide by the said river St. Maurice, and on the westerly side by a line rectangular to the aforesaid rear line, running from a point therein at the distance of 160 chains Irom the westerly bank of the said river of St. Maurice, until it strikes the said river Si. Lawrence; and that the second and last of the said towns or boroughs, to be called the town or borough of William Urnry, shall comprehend all that tract or parcel of land (being part and parcel of the aforesaid county of Uichelieu) bounded in front by the river Sorel, otherwise called the river Richelieu or Chambly, in the rear by a line parallel to the easterly side of the Royal-square of the said town, at the distance of 100 chains therefrom, on the northerly side by the river of St. Lawrence, and on the southerly side by a line parallel to the southerly side of the Royal-square of the said town, at the dislonc-e of 120 chains therefrom. i\nd know ye also, that our said lieutenant governor hnth al!nd well- beloved Aliired Clarke, esq. our lieutenant-governor and commander in chief of our said province of Lower Canada, and major-general commanding our forces in North America, 8lc. 8(c. &c.; at our castle of St. Lewis, ui the city of Quebec, this 7th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1 792, aud in the 32d year of our reign. 4. C. Hugh Fitilay, Acting .Secretary. Appendix, N* 12. An ACT to provide for increosing the Representation of the Commons of this Province of Upper Canada, in the House of Assembly ; — [Passed 7tli March 1820.] WIIKREAS from the rapid increase of the population in this province, the representation tlicrcof in the Commons House of Assembly is deemed too limited ; 13e it therefore enacted, by ilic King's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legis- lative Council and Assembly of the I'rovince of Upper Canada, constituted and assembled by virtue of niiil under the auihoiity of an Act passed in the Parliament of Great Britain, intituled, " An Act to repeal certuiu parts of nn Act passed in the fourteenth year of His Majesty's leigu, intituled ' An Act for making more effectual provision for the Govern- nicnt of the I'rovince of Quebec in Norili America, and to muka further provision for the Government of the said I'rovince,' " and by the amliorily of the same, tl)ut so much of the several laws now in force as reiiiilatcs the number of rcpresen'ntivcs to serve in the Provincial Parliament, be and llie same is hereby repenlrd. c!. And be it furlhei' enacted, by the authority afores.iid, that from and after the end of the present I'arliament, I'lich and fveiy county now lbni>ed or organized, or which shall or may In reufter he fuinied or or^iinized, the population of which shall amount to one thousand souls, shall be. represented in ilie Provincial I'iirliainont by one member; and when the population of such county or counlx-s as aforesaid shall amount to four thousand souls, the said comiiv or counties situll be represented by two members; and thut each and every town ill which the quarter sessions for the rict ill whicli such town, township or county, shall or may be situated, is hereby j&j. X X 3 cquired N*12. Act to provide for increasing; the Re- presentatives of the Commons of Upper Canada. 3Sr~ AEPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMlT^Li, N" t2. re^iiiretl to transmit to the office of the jiovernor, lieutenant governor, or person Rdminix Act to piovlde for tering the government of this province. increasing the He- 4- And be it further ciiacied, hy the authority at'orc!*aid, that whenever an university shaH prenentntives of the be organized and in operiilion a? a seminary of learning in tins province, and in conl'ormilv Commons of Upper to the rules and statutes of sitniiar institutions in Great Britain, it shall and may be lawfiil Canada. for the governor, lieutenant governor, or person adniinisteriiig the government of this jirovince for the time being, to declare by |)roclaniHtion the tract of land appendant to such university, and whereupon the same is situated, to be a town or township by such name as to him sliall seem meet, and that such town or township so constituted shall be lepresented by one member : Provided always, iievcrtheles', that no person shall be permitted to vote at any such election for a member to represent the said university in farliament, who, besides the qualification now by law required, shall not also be entitled to vote i» the convocation ot the said university. 5. And be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that it shall and may be lawful for the governor, lieutenant governor, or person administering the government of this province, to issue writs of election lor members to serve in tlie Coiiiuions House of Assembly for such counties and towns as aforesaid, and for the said university, in like manner us i» provided by the eighteenth clause of an Act passed in the thirty-lirst year of His Majesty's reign, intituled, " An Act to repeal certain parts of .ui Act passed in the fourteenth year of His Majesty's reign, intituled, ' An Act for making more etfeetual provision for the tJovern- ment ot the Province of Quebec in North America, anti to make further provision for the fiovernmenl of the said Province.'" 6. Provided always, and be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that nothing in this Act contained shall extend or be construed to extend to lessen the number of members now returned for any county or counties utider the authoiity of any law heretofore in force in this province, or to make necessary the issuing of any new writ of election, during the continuance of any Parliament, by reason of the Increase of inhabitants in any town or county since the then last preceding general election. 7. And belt further enacted, by the authority afor ;iid, that when anv countv now formed or hereafter to be formed shall contain less than cr.e ihousatid souls, tiie said county or counties shall be attached to the next adjoining county of the district in which there shall be the smallest number of souls. 8. And be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that the ninnber ot souls residing in any town as aforesaid, shall be ascertained and distinguished, in the return of the town clerk of the township in which such town shall be situal ^(\, troin the numbe, of souls of such township. 0. And be it further enacted, by the nulhority aforesaid, that no person qualified 1.0 vote in any (own as aforesaid, s'inll be allowed to vote in the county in which such town is 'jituated upon the same freehold which may (|u!«(doii> of Or-nt Britain and Ireland, King, Defender of the I'aith, and so forth; To all to whom these presents come, greeting. Whereas the establishment of a colli ge within our (M\)vini'o of Upper Canada in North America, for the education of youth in the principles ot ibe (^iiristian religin'i, and for their instruction in the various braiielu-s of seiener .mil literature wliieb art taught in our universities in this kingdom, would greatly conduce to the welfare o' out >iid province; and whereas humble application lialli been made to 11- by many of our Iw ,n into our royal coii- » It "iition, and duly weighing the gnat utility ami iiifportance >/' iieli an iiislitiition, huvo of our spicial grace, certain knowledge and mere nmtii.n, ordained . is hereinafter directed, *or the education and instruction of youth and students in arts aih' (acuities, to continue or ever to be called " King's Collrgc." And we do hereby declare and gr.int that our trusty and well belovid the right reverend Father in GotI, Charles .lames, bishop of the diocese of Quebec, or the bishoji for the time being of the diocese in which the siiid town of York may be situat<', on any future! division or alteration of the said present diocese of Quebec, sliail for us anti on our bchali' bo ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 35* be visitor of the said college; nncl tliat our trusty and well beloved Sir Peregrine Maitiand, V" ij. our lieutenant-governor of our said province or the governor, lieutenant- governor or other charter of the persons administering the governirent of our said province for the time being, shall be the King*!) College at chancellor of our suid college. York in Upper And we do hereby declare, ordain and grant, that there shall at all times be one president Canada, of our said college, who shall be a clergyman in holy orders of the united church of England and Ireland ; and that there shall he such and so many pro'essors in ditTerent arts and faculties within our said college, as from time to time shall on deemed necessary or expedient, and as shall be appointed by us or by the chancollor tf c-.ir said college in our behalf, nnd during our pleasure. And we do hereby grant and ordain that the reverend John Straclmn, doctor in divinity, archdeacon of York, in our said province of Upper Canada, shall be the first president of our said college, and the archdeacon of York, in our said province, for the time being, shall by virtue of such his office, be at all times the president of the said college. And we do hereby, for. us and our heirs and successors, will, ordain and grant, that the said chancellor and president, and the said professors of our said college, and all persof;s who shall be duly matriculated into and admitted as scholars of our said college, and their successors for ever, shall be one distinct and separate body politic and corporate in deed and in name, by the name and style of " the Chancellor, President and Scholars of King's College, at York in the province of Upper Canada," and that by the same name they shall liave pt'r[)ctiial succession and a cuminon seal, and that they and llieir successors shall from time to time have full power to alter, renew or change si/c!i common seal at their will and pleasure, and ns shall be found convenient; and that by the same name they the said chan- cellor, president and scholars, and tl.oir successors from time to time, and at all times hereafter, shall be able and capable to have, take, receive, purchase, acquire, hold, possess, enjoy und maintain, to and for the use of the said college, any messuages, lands, tenements and hereditaments of what kind, nature or quality soever, situate and being within our said province of Upper Canada, so as that the same do not exceed in yearly value the sum of fifteen thousand pounds sterling above all charges, and moreover to take, purchase, acquire, have, hold, enjoy, receive, possess and retain all or any goods, chattels, charitable or other contributions, gifts or benefactions whatsoever. And we do hereby declare and grant that the said chancellor, president and scholars, and their successors by the same name, shall and may be able and capable in law to sue aiid be sued, implead .irid be impleaded, answer and be ans.vered, in all or any court or courts of record within our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and our said province of Ujiper Canada, and other our dominions, in all and singular actions, causes, pleas, suits, matters anJ demands whatsoever of what nature or kind soever, in as large, ample and beneficial a manner und form as any other body politic and corporate, or any other our liege siibjectJ being persons able and capable in law, may or can sue, implead or answer, or be sued, iinplcuiled or answered in any manner wh'Hsoever. And we do heieliy declare, ordain and grant, thu^ there shall be within our said college or corporation a council to b(? called and known by the name of " the College Council;" and we do will and ordain that the said council shall consist of the chancell(~r and president for the time being, and of seven of the professors in arts and faculties of our saitl college, and that such seven prot'essors shall be membc.s of the established united church of Encland and Ireland, and shall previously to their admission into the said college couikuii sevcially sign and subscribe the thirty-nine articles of religion as declared and set forth in the Book of Coinmoti Prayer ; and in case at any tinve there should not be within our suid college seven piol'essors of arts and foculties being members of the established church aforesaid, then our will and pleasure is, and we do hereby grant and ordain, that the said college (HHincil shall be filled up to liie requisite number of seven, exclusive of the chan- cellor and prciideiit for the time being, by such persons, being graduates of our juid college and being ineinbirs of the established church aforesaid, iis shall for that purpose be appointed by the chancellor for the time being of our said college, atid which members of council ihali hi like manner subscribe the thirty-nine articles aforesaid previously to their admission into the said college council. And whereas it is necessary lo make provision for ill') completion and filling up of the said council at the first instiliitioii of our said college, aud previously to the appointment of any professors or the conferring of any degiees tlieieiii, now we do further ordnin and declare that the chancellor of our said college lor the time being shall, upon or immediately alter the first institution thereof, by warrant under his hand iioniiiiate and appoint seven discreet and proper pLTsous rc^'deiit within our said province of Upper Canada, to consti- tute, jointly with him tin- said chancellor, and the president of our said c<)llcge for the time being, the first or original council of our said college, which firtt or original meinbers of Jhe said council shall in like manner respectively subscribe the thiriy-niue articles; aforesaid, previously to their admission into the said council. And we do furllur declare and grant, that the members of the said college council holding within our said college the offices of chancellor, president or professor in any art or faculty, iOiall rispi'ctivrly hold their scats in the said council so long as they and each of them slial'. retain such thiir olUies us aforesaid, and no longer ; and that the members of the said council nut holiliiig olliccs in our said college shall from lime to time vacate their seals in the said council when and so sooti as there shall be an adequate number of professors in our said college, being members of ibe established church aforesaid, to fill up the said council to the requisite number before meiitioned, ^6)). X X 4 And M l m i WM m n i n i ti I I , ^ APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE N«i3. Cliarter of the King's College at York in Upper Canada. And we do hereby nuthurizc and empower the chancellor for the time being of our luiJ college to decide in encli case what particular member of the inid council not huldinu uny such ofSce as aforesiiid, shall vacate his seat in the said council upon the adiniition ul unjr new member of council holding any such office. And wc do hereby declare and praut, that the chancellor for the time being of our said college shall preside at all meetings of the said college council which he. niuy di'i'Ui it proper or convienient to attend, and that in his absence the president of our tuid college shall preside at all such meetings, and that in the absence of the president, the senior member of the said council present at any sunli meeting sliall preside thereat, and (hat the seniority of the members of the said council, other than the chancellor and presidciil, Mhull be regulated according to the date of their respective appointments ; provided iilwuyN, that the members -of the said council being professors in our said college shall in the laid council take precedence over and be considered us seniors to the uicmbsrs thereof not being professors in our said college. And we do ordain ami declare, that no meeting of the said council shall be or be held to be a lawful meeting thereof, unless five members ut the least be present during the whole of every such meeting; and that ail questions and resolutions proposed for the decision of the said college council shall he determined by the majority of the voles of the mcinhcrs of council present, including the vote of the presiding member, and that in the event of an equal division of such votes, the member presiiling at any such meeting shall give an additional or casting vote. And we do further declare, that if any member of the said council shall die or ri-iiign his seat in the said council, or shall be suspended or removed from the same, or shall by reason of any bodily or mental infirmity, or by reason of his absence from the raid province, become incapable for three calendar months or upwards of attending the meetings of the said council, then and in every such case a tit and proper person hhall be appointed by the s.iid chancellor, to net as and be a member of the said council in the place and stcud of th(! member so dying or resigning, or so suspended or removed or incapacitated us nforetuiil ; and such new nie.iibor succeeding to any member so suspended or incapacitated, shall vacate such his ottice on the removal of any sucli suspension, or at the termination of any such incapacity as aforesaid of his immediate predecessor in the said council. And we do further ordain and grant, that it shall and may be competent to and fur llie chancellor for the time being of our said college, to suspend from iiis teat in iho said council any member thereof for any just and reasonable cause to the said chancellor •ippearing ; provided that the grounds of every such suspeosion shall be entered and recorded ut length by the said chancellor in the books of the said council, and signed by him : and every (lerson so suspended shall thereupon cease to be a member of the said council, unless and until he shall be restored to and re-established in such his station therein by any order to be made in the premises by us, or by the said visitor of our said collegv acting on our behalf, and in pursuance of any special reference from us. And we do further declare, that any member of the said council, who without sufKuient cause, to be allowed by the said chancellor by an order entered for that purpose in the books of the said council, shall absent himself from all the meetings thereof which may be held within any six successive calendar months, shall thereupon vacate sucii his seat in the said council. And we do by these presents, for us, our heirs and successors, will ordain and grant, that the said council of our said college shall have power and authority to frame and make stotutes, rules and ordinances touching and concerning the good government of our said college, the performance of divine service therein, the studies, lectures, exercises niid degrees in arts and faculties, and all matters regarding the same, the residence and duties of the president of uur said college, die number, lesidence and duties of the prufPMors thereof, the management of the revenues and property of our said college, the salaries^ stipends, provision and emoluments of and for the president, professors, scholars, oUicers and servants thereof, the number and duties of such ollicers and servants, and also louchinB and concerning any other matter or thing which to them shall seem good, fit iind useful for the well-being una ndvaiiccmeiit of our suid college, niul agreeable tu this our charter ; and also from lime to time, by any new .statutes, rules or ordinances, to revoke, renc'tv, augment or alter all, every or any of the suid statuics, rules and ordinances as to them shall acem meet and expedient; provided always, thai ilie s>ai(l statutes, rules and ordinances, or any of them, shall noi be repugnant to llie laws and statutes of the United kingiloni of Orcai Britain and Irelniul, or of our baid province of Upper Canada, or to this our charier ; provided also, that the said statutes, rules and ordinances shall be subject to ihe approbation of the suid visitor of our said college for the lime being, and siiall be forlliwitli trankinitteil to the said visitor for that purpose ; and that in cuae llie suid visitor slinll lor us and on our behalf, in writing, signify his disupprobatioii thereof within two years of the time of their being so luiido iind fratned, the same, or such part thereof as shall be so (lisu|iproved of by the said visitor, shall from the liiiit^ of siieli disapprobation being made known to the said chancellor of onr i' record as elsewhere, and by all and singular Judges, justices, officers, ministers und other subjects whatsoever of us, our heirs and successors, any misreciial, uonrecitnl, omission, imperfection, defect, matter, cause or thiug whrtsoever to the contrary thereof in anywise notwithstanding. In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent. Witness Ourself at Westminster, this fifteenth day of March one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, in the eighth year ef our reign. Appendix, N° 14. COPY of the Opinion of His Majesty's Law Officers relative to the Clergy Reserves; dated 15th Nov. 1819. My Lord, Doctors Commons, istli November 1819. N* 14. WE are honoured with your Lordship's commands of the 14th September last, stating opinion of the Law thnt doubts having arisen how far, under the construction of the Act passed in the 31st o'ficers relative to year of his present Majesty, (c. 31.) the JJissenting Protestant ministers resident in Clergy Keserres. Canada have a legal claim to participate in the lands by that Act directed to be reserved as a provision for the support and maintenance of a Protestant clergy. And your Lordship is pleased to request, that wc would take the same into consideration and report to your Lordship, for the information of th ' t>|'jiice Regent, our opinion, whether the Governor of the province is either required by 'n.; Act, or would be justified in applying liie produce of the reserved lands to the muintcnnnce of any other than the clergy ol the Church of UugliunI resident in the province ; and in the event of our being of (-pinion that the ministers of Dissenting Protestant congregations have u concurrent claim with those of the Church of England, further desiring our opinion, whi-tlier, in applying the reserved lutids to the endowmeiit of rectories and parsonages, as required by the 38ih clause, it is encumbent upon His Majesty to retain a proportion of those lands for the maintenance of the Dissenting clergy, and as to the proportion in which, under such a construction, the provision is to be assigned to the ditl'erent classes of Dissenters established within the province. 569. Yy We mmmmm wmmm* 354 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE N* 14. VVe nrcof opinion, that though the proTisiont made by the 3i8t Geo. 3, c. 31, 1. 36 Opinion aftba Law '*'"' ^'' '""' '''^ RUiiport and maintenance of a Proteitant clergy, are not contincd solely to CNloen ralativa u> ''" ''''■'Ky »' 'I'c Church oi' England, but may be extended also to clergy of the Church Clergy RcicrvM. "' ^t'ollimd, if there arc any such settled in Canada, (us appears to have been admitted in V ^ / iliu debate upon the passing of the Act,) yet that they do not extend to Dissenting ininiilert, since we think the terms Protestant clergy con apply only to Protestant clergy rccnunixcd and established by law. The 37ih scciioii, which directs " that the rents and profits of the lands, &c. ihell be " apulicHble solely to the maintenance and support of a Protestant clergy," does not •pecify by what authority the rents and profits are to be so applied. Supposing the Oovernor to be duly autboriied by the Act to make such application, wc think that he will l)e justilied in applying such rents and profits to the maintenance and support of clergy of the Church of Scotland, as well as those of the Church of England, but nut to the support und maintenance of ministers of Dissenting Protestant congregations. VV'illi reipect tu the second question, the 38th clause, " which empowers His Majesty " to nuihorizu the Governor to constitute and erect parsonages or rectories according to " the I'stiiblishnient of the Church of England;" provides also, " that he may endow " every such parsonage or rectory with so much ot the lands allotted and appropriated " in res|iect to any land within such township or parish which shall have been granted, " an the Uovernor, with tlie advice of the Executive Council, shall judge to be ex- " iM-dient." (jndcr these terms he might endow any particular parsonage or rectory with the whole lauds idlutled and appropriated in that township or parish. It would be inconsistent with this discretionary power that any proportion cf such lands thould be absolutely retained fur any other clergy than those mentioned in that clause, and wc think iliut it is not incumbent on His Majesty so to retain any proportion of such lands. We have the honour to be, my Lord, Your Lordship's most obedient humble servants, (signed) P.arl llaihurst, Dec. tic. He. Christ, RobinsoH. R. Giford. J. S. Vopkj/. the to an th< c wi itn th sa Appendix, N* 1/5. N" J. 5. Opinion of the Law Officerii iw to tlu: Kcveiiue rallied under the Act of i7:ti. COPY of the Opinion of the Law OHicers of the Crown, as to the Right of the Crown to appropriate the Revenue raised under the Act of i774« independent of the Legislative Assembly. My Lord, Serjeant's Inn, I3ih Nov. 1824. WE linvn had the honour to receive your Lordship's letter, trnnsinitting to us the co[)y of a letter froiii Liciilenant-Gencrul the Earl of Dalhoiisie, dated the 28ih April 1823, inclosing Ik n |ii>rl iiiiide i)y 11 Committee of the Assembly of Lower Canada upon the provincial iieeiililil«, ill wliieli a (iiiestion is raised as to the right of Government to apply the pro- , iIk (if till leviiiiie arising from the 14 Geo. 3, c. 88, as tiiey invariably have been since the pasting (if iliul Act, towards del'raying the expenses of the aduiinistiation of justice, anil ilie Mi|i|i(iii of ilie civil government, by the authority of His Majesty, without the ililcrveiiliiiii lit till Coll. lial Legisinture ; and your L(ir(l»liiii was pleased to desire that we would tali! the iiitiie into our consideration, and report to your Lordship, for the inforina- lioii III Ills Majeniy, whether the power granted by the Act of the 14 Geo. 3, is repealed by tlu: Dnliiraiory Act of the 18 Geo. 3, or by the Act of the 31 Geo. 3, granting a con- Hliliillnn III llie'pinviiices of Lower and Upper Canada, so as to take from the Crown the appiiipriation ol the money levied under the 14 Geo. 3, and to vest it in the Provincial licuislntiire. In «■ pliance with yonr Lordship's request, we have taken the same into our consider- ution, and \>vn leave to" report, for the inlorniation of His Majesty, that by the 14 Geo. 3, c, 88, the duties ihereiiy imposed are substituted for the duties which existed at the time of the nurrendcr of the province to His Majesty's arms, and are specially appropriated by I'arliaiiKiit tu detiaying the expenses of the administration of justice, und of the support ol tin iiivil giiverninent in the province. This Act is nut repealed by the 18 CJeo. 3, c. 12, the preanihle of wltieli declares that Parliament wUl not impose any duty, &c. for the pur- pose 111 raiting a revenue ; und the enacting part of wiiich states, that from mid uj'ler the pauitia »/' Ihif Att the King and Purliameni of Great britain nill not impose, 8tc. except .inlv, »U'. ; lite whole of which i« |trospective, and does not, us we think, allect the provisions of the Act of 14 Geo. 3, c. 88. It may be further observed, that if the 18 Geo. 3 had renealid the 14 (ico. 3, the duties imposed by the latter Act must immediately have «eHi<«'d J und the Aet 18 Geo. 3 cannot uHeei the appropriation of the duties imposed by the 14 (iiii. 3, siiue the 18 Geo. 3 is confined to duties thereafter to be imposed, und imposed also liT purposes diflerent from those which were coiiiemplttted by the Legislature in passing the 14 (ieo. 3i via. the rei!;ulatiun of commerce alone. We are funlnr of opinion, that the Act 14 Geo. 3, c. 88, is not repealed of aflected bjr the ;.f '.■;y-jra;g»P»^':r,WyTpp^yyyi"^. ■^;.(','^.-yiit,i ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. S5S the jt Geo. 3, c. 31. It ii clear that it ia not repealed : in fact, as we obterved with respect n* i 5. to the 18 Geo. 3, if the Act had been repealed the dutie* must immediately have ceated; Opinion oftbeLaw and a* to the appropriation of the dutie*, or the control over them, nothing is said upon OfEceri as to tbe the subject, either in the 46th and 47th section, or in any other part of the Act 31 Geo. 3, Revenue raised c, ^1, under the Act of With respect to any inference to be drawn from wlwt may have taken place in Canada 177^ within the lust few years as to these duties, it may be observed, that the duties having beea imposed by Parliament at a time when it was competent to Parliament to impose them, they cannot be repealed, or Uie appropriation of them in any degree varied, except by the same authority. We have the honour, &c. Earl Bathurst, (signed) J. S. Copleif. \, &c. &c. &c. Ch> Wetherell. Colonial Department, Downing-slreet, 26th June i8a8. . , , Appendix, N* 16. COPY of a Petition from Canada, praying that the Presbyterian Clergy may parlicipate j i • . in the Revenues set apart for the Protestant Clergy ; dated 20th of December 1827, Canada P rtiUon. Quebec. To the King's Most Excellent Majesty. May it please Your Majesty, YOUR Majesty's Presbyterian subjects, whose names are hereunto subscribed, as well for themuelves as for other Your Majesty's subjects professing the same 'creed in Your Majesty's provinces of Upper and Lower Canadti, most humbly beg leave to approach Your Majesty's throne, and to claim Your royal support and protection. A great number of Your Majesty's petitioners, descended from those North Britons who so eminently contributed under the immortal Wolfe to the conquest of these colo- nies, have, with the influx nf emigrants from Scotland and Ireland, formed large commu- nities professing their hereditary laith. From a zealous and stedfast attachment to that faith your petitioners have hithertO' (in ttie absence of any other support) endeavoured by voluntary contributions to obtain the inestimable advantage of the services of ministers of their persuasion ; but the extent of the means derived from that source has been wholly inadequate to procure a number of pastors proportionate to the extent of the population, and is also insufficient to place those already settled among them in a state of suitable independence. The Imperial Parliament feeling the necessity of extending its fostering care to reli- gious establishments in these colonies, enacted by a statute passed in the thirty-first year of the reign of his late Majesty, of happy and glorious memory, that the one-seventh of the ungranted lands in these provinces snould be allotted for the support and maintenance of a Protestant clergy within the same. The liberality of the Imperial Parliament did not stop here, as thitt provision could only be prospective, and as the wants of infant and growing colonies required, in a reli- gious point of view, a more efficient succour, the Episcopalian clergy in these provinces have been allowed to participate in the sums voted annually by the Imperial Parliament, for the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in the North American Provinces. Your Majesty's petitioners beg leave to express to Your Majesty their regret that the Presbyterian clergy in the Canadas have not hitherto been permitted to participate in any portion of the revenue arising from the lands so set apart for the maintenance of a Pro- testant clergy in the said province, nor have they received assistance from any other source. Your Majesty's petitioners referring to the Act of Parliament passed in the 5th year of the reign of Queen Anne, c. 8, and finding the religion r"'ofessed and established in the Church of Scotland, as well us that professed and established in the Church of England, to be there recognized as the true Protestant religion, ire at a loss to conceive why their church should be placed in a worse situation than the Church of England, and why the ministers of their persuasion should not be considered as coming under the designation o a Protestant clers^y. Your Majesty's petitioners beg leave, most gracious Sovereign, to observe that the parent church, fioui which they sprung, has been eminently distinguished for diffusing the principles of religion and sound morals, and they are persuaded, from the experience of uges, and especially from the example of the laud of their forefathers, that a people blessed with the advantages of a suitable provision for religious instruction and educa- tion, are thereby trained to ordor and virtue ; and that in a country where cfleciual provi- sion is made for these purposes, nothing remain for the Government but to enjoy the spectacle of its progressive improvement and increasing happiness, and to receive from a loyal, virtuous and happy people the spontaneous en'usion of their gratitude and at- tachment. Your petitioners, most gracious Sovereign, indulge the hope, that they may now obtain that support of which they stand iii need, from the munificence of the Imperial 569. Y y 2 rarliauicnl. h...4/»ntiinents, your Petitioneri* beg leave humbly to upproaeh your Majesty %\ith a statement of various evils under whicli they have laboured for some years, and from which they have no hope of relief, except by the interposition of your Majesty and the Imperial Purlianicn'. 'I'he experience of thirty years has now demonstrated the impolicy of the Act of the British Parliament, 31 Geo. 3, c. 31, by which the late province of Quebec was divided into the provinces of Upper and Lower Cnnnda. To this divisicm your Petitioners ascribe the present ineffective state of their legislature, and the want of those necessary measures for diffusing throughout the whole population of the country feelings l)ccoiniiig their character ns Dritish subjects, and introducing that general spirit of improvement, which, encouraged by the conimerei;d system, universally lyervades and invigorates other British colonies. Tliis division Jias ciontcd u difference of interest between the provinces in matters connected with revenue highly injurious to both, inevitably producing a spirit of dissei ion and animosity, and inl'ui-ing into the l^e^islatures principles of n narrow and sieltish policy, adverse to the general developemeiit ol their resouices, and in an especial manner to the improvement ot the channels of intercourse between them ; and it is essen- tial here to notice, that nearly the whole of the revenue of the two Provinces arises from duties levied on merchandize imported at the port of Quebec, under laws enacted by the Legislature of the Lower Province. It has also, from the control which the geographical situation of the Lower Province enables it to exercise over the trade of tlie Canadus, placed the export trade of the Upper Province at its mercy, being subject to such regu- lations and restrictions at the shipping port as its Legislature may choose to impose. From this eireumstanee, and from the teeble attempts made to improve the grand natural channel of the Canadas, strikingly contrasted with the enterprise and energy evinced by the neinlibouiing state of New York in the rapid formation of canals, together with the indifference manifested on this subject by the Legislature of the Lower Province, your Petitioners have just reason for alarm, that if a similar system be persisted in, it may tend in a most injurious degree to increase the commercial intercourse of the Upper Province with the Lnited Stales, and divert the enterprise and trade of its inhabitants into a foreign channel; and from tliese causes your Petitioners not only apprehend the innnediate loss of ben( Hcial trade, but that the grailual erteet would be to interweave the interests of the Upper Canadiaus with those of the neighbouring States, tliereby alienating their minds from the people of this province and weiikening their ullcction for your Majesty's Govern- ment, notwiilistiindiiig their present known aiui tried loyalty. The Legislature of tills province has for u long time past been agitated by dissensions, and their deliberutions so inucli interrupted thereby, that trade, agriculture, education and other objects of general interest have been neglected. There exists no law for the registry t of .^w^'iWwT^'-, ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 337 of lands and morlEages, «> necesiary for security in commercial tranuvtioiii ; no Imolvent N* 17. Debt 'rs Act; and your Petitionert have lucked in vain tor a law to provide for the UDre- Patition from tb* iiresented itale of the townshipi, a fertile and valuable portion of this province, lettled by Inhabitant* of inhabitants of British origin ; of these legislative enactments, and many others necessary Quebec. to quicken the enterprise and industry of a commercial country, your Pctitionnrs entertain "^ little hope, until a rc-union of the provinces shall have weakened the influence which has hitherto prevented their adoption in our statute t>ook. The existence of this influence your Petitioners chiefly attribute to the impolitic division uf these provinces; which, instead of rendering it the interest, iis it is the duty, of every individual of the community to concur in measures to lusiniilute the whole populatiou and to ullay the jealousies naturally existing between the xevcrul classes, has unavoidably presented to the individuals who first attained u majority in the Legislature a temptation 10 perpetuate their own power by adopting a course directly opposite. To the snmc influence may be traced the small encouragement which has been held out to the settlement of the vacant lands of this Lower Province by British population, and consequently that upwards of 80,000 sjult, (a number equal to one-fourth of the actual French population) wlio since the last American war have emigrated to this province from Great Britain and Ireland, scarcely one-twentieth part remain within its limits. Your Petitioners have observed with gratitude the disposition which your Majesty's Government hus evinced by the Act of the present year uf your Majesty, c. 1 19, to apply a remedy to the existing political evils of tlirso provinces, but ii is their humble opinion that the provisions thereof arc insufficient ; that numerous circuuistanccs concur to render vain any attempt permanently to regulate to the satisfaction of both provinces the division af the revenue collected nt the port of Quebec, unless united under one legislature ; and further they humbly beg leave to express their tears, that some of the provisions of this Act, although dictated by the necessity of regulating the conflicting claims of the two provinces, may afford u pretext to othevs for imputing to the Imperial Parliament a dispo- sition remote from the intentions and views of yuur Majesty's Government. Having thus stated the evils under which they have suffered, vour Petitioners feeling the fullest confidence in the justice and wisdom of your Majesty's Government, and being satisfied that the subject will receive the most berious and deliberate consideration, would have felt much hesitation in presuming to suggest remedies; but ns the re-union of the two provinces has been proposeil in the Imperial pmiiameur, tlicy beg leave to express their entire acquiescence in the adoption of that measure, upon such principles as shall secure to all classes of your Majesty's subjects in these provinces their just rights, and protect the whole iti the enjoyment of existing laws, and their religion us guaranteed ; such u union would, in the opinion of your Petitioners, afl'ord the moat eflcctual remedy for existing evils, as it would- tend gradually to assimilate the whole population in opinions, habits and feeling >, and afford a reasonable hope that the wisdom of the United Legislature would devise a system of government of more consistency and unity, and of greater liberality to all classes than bus hitherto been experienced. A union, on the equitable principles humbly suggested by your ^lajesty's Petitioners, will necessarily include a representation proportionate, as iicni' us possible, to the numbers, wealth, and resources of the diflcrent classes of inhabitants of these provinces — will require no innovation in the laws or religion of the country, nor proscription in debate or motion ill the Legislature, of the language of any portion of the inhabitants, in every class of ivhom bravery and loyalty have been evinced as fellow soldiers in defence of the provinces. May it therefore graciously please your Majesty, that a bill for the union of the two provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, on the equitable terms prayed for by your Peti- tioners, do pass into law, and the constitution established thereby be preserved inviolate to your Petitioners and their posterity. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will every pray. Quebec, December, 1822. Colonial Department, Downing-street, 7 June 1828. Appendix, N" 1 8. To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parlinnient assembled. The PETITION of the undersigned Merchants and others connected with the Canadas. Humbly showcth, THAT your Petitioners have perceived with alarm and deep regret the dissensions which have lor many years prevailed in these provinces, and which are now so much matter of «ublic iiotoiJL.y, that your Petitioners deem it iniiieeessaiy to oceu|)y the time of your Honourable House in their detail neither is it the purpose of your Petitioners to blame the conduct of any man or party of men in these provinces, and thus by recrimination aggravate the evil, but your Petitioners arc actuated by the more laudable motive of calling the attention N»i8. Petition of Mer> chants and others connected with the Canadas, dated 17th May i8a8. 55» APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE N* 1 8. of your Honourable Hoatc to what ■p|)ean to them the only effectual remedy for iliuie aa- Pctition of Mer- fortiinatr differenm in timu tn come. chanu and othtn '"*"! *■* '1^* honeat conviction of your Peliliontra, th<- Act of the 3iit George 3d, c. 31, connected with the whereby the late province nt Quebec wn* divided into the province* of Upper iind Lower Canadaa, dated Canada ha* been the fruitful tource of all the eviin with which the Cuuadai have been and 17th May iSa8. arc now afflicted. That thin moit impolitic menxurv was paiied nt tite time without being desired by the then few inhabitnnii of what now constitulei the province of Upper Caniida, and indirect opposition to the wiihet ot the inhabitant* of what now conatiiuteii the province of Lower Canada, whether of French or Uritinh extraction, as cli'firly appean by the rcpre*entation of their joint agent mnde nt the bar of your llonourablu House on the 33d of March 1701. That the baneful con»equencea of tliia nieaxurc wfre even then so clearly forcsieen, and brought so fully before your Honourable ilouite, timt your I'etitioners cannot describe what has Hciually occurred in more nppi'oprii)te language timu thai used by the individual above alluded to on that occasion : in urging the mntmuance uf the province of Quebec undivided he says, " I'bere is one consideration of the utmost importance to the fanquillity of the " people inliabiiing nil piirts uf thnt country, and wliicli will alone, I hope, be suHicient to " engage this Hononrnble House to reject the plan of a new independent government. " I beg leave to a-qucst that Honourable Members will recollect and attend to the geo- " graphical situation of that country, from which it will appear evident that no vessel of " any kind can proceed farther up the river St. Lawrence tnan the city of Montreal on " account of the Kapids, which are immediately above that town. Uf course, as every " article of necessity or luxury which the inhabitants of the upper districts have occasion " for from Britain, or any foreign country, roust come to them by the river St. Lawrence, " they must be landed at or below .Montreal, where they must be stored by the merchants ** of Quebec or Montreal, until carriages ur boats ure provided to send them forward ; like- " wive, that every article of produce which the people of these Upper Districts wish to " export must be sent in boats to Montreal, or perhaps to Quebec, fur the purpose of " being shipped for exportation ; and that an well the artielui of import aa of export must, " in passing through the Lower Country, become subject to the laws, regulations, duties " nun taxes which may be imposed by the Legislature of the Lower Country. Now sup- " posing the division to take place, as it may be expected, that the new ijcgislature of " Quebec shall, in due time, provide a revenue towards the support of the civil government " of that part of the province, it is more than probable, that whatever money is raised fot " that or any other public purpose will be done by duties payable unou importations. It " is therefore an object that aeserves the most sertou* reflection of Hunourablc Members " to consider how far the people inhabiting the Up|>er Government will a|)prove of, and be " content to pay taxes or duties on their importations or exportations when the produce of " those taxes or duties is to be applied towards supporting the expenses of the >.' til govern- " ment of the Luwer Province, ur fur building public edifices, or otherwise improving or " beautifying that part of the country; ur tor the purpose of granting bounties or en " couragements to promote agriculture, or particular trades or manufactures, of which the " people in the Upper Province cannot, from their situation, participate the advantages. " It is impossible. Sir, if the province of Quebec is divided, for the wisdom of man to " lay down a plan for these objects that will not afford matter of dispute, and create ani- " mosiiies between the governments of the two provinces, which, in a few years, may lead " to the most serious consequences. This would be sowing the seeds ot dissension and " quarrels which, however easy it may be to raise, it will be tound exceedingly difficult to " appease." Again he adds : " Sir, I have considered the subject a thousand times since I first heard " of this intended division, but have not been able to furin any reasonable idea of the " motive which has induced the proposition of such a dangerous experiment : if at any " future period experience sliuuld point it out us expedient for the advantage and safety of " Government, or for the general convenience ur prusperity uf the people, to divide that " country, it may then be done with more judgment, I'roin a more certain knowledge of the " consequences of such a division. The inconvenienecs that may arise from contiii(iiii<^ the " province united under one Legislature are few, and they are well known and understood : " the advantages are unanimity, mutual Mipport and strength; but no man can tell the " dangers of a separation. The dangers, liuwever, tu be apprehended arc political weakness, " disunion, aniniusities and quarrels." That it is within the knowledge ot several of your Petitioners that the above Act had hardly become a law when the impolicy of the division of the pruvlueeuf Quebec became apparent to His .Majesty's minlster», as was declared by them to the individual who made the representation from which your Petitioners have now (|uutc(l. That although by the wisdom of the Imperial Parliament uii Act was passed in 182.; intending to set at rest, al least lor the moment, the disputet between the twu provinces in regard to duties, for wliieli end the power of determining upon the share ol' duties to whicli Upper Canada may be entitled is taken out of the hands of the two Colonial Legislaturc-i and given to arbitrators, yet as the very passing of such a law implies the existence of a very great evil, so your Petitioners are well assured that this remedy, viewed as a perma- nent measure, would in its execution prove a source of endless dispute, dissatisfaction and jealousy between the two provinces ; and as pregnant with the same ell'ccts do your Peti- tioners regard the depriving of the Legislature of Lower Canada of the power to raise any duties J' It i •vsipT- ON THE CIVIL (JOVERNMKNT OF CANADA. 339 dutiei on imporlHtion, into that province wiiliout the previous communiuution of nny pro- N* iR. jccted hiw for that purpoHc to tlie (JovrrninL-nt of Upper Caimdii, and the trniitiniiition of Petition of Mer- it to England fur tlie upprovoi of the UovL-rnment tlierv : tliu mure contiderution your chant* and othert Petitionem bestow on the siihjcct, tli<- more confirmed is tht-re conviction tliiit iniiteud of cu»iiectud with the unliiativc remedies, iin etiectuid iind omplelc remedy sliould be retorted to, nnd thi^i can only Cmadas, dated f)C found by lliu union of llie provinces under one Leginlalure. W*" Way l8a8. That as Hriiiith Mubjet'iii, and persons whose interests are deeply involved in the prosperity of these provinces, your IVtitioners cannot view tiic present state of affairs and tlieir inevitable result wiilioui the most seriousupprcheiisions. Situated un the Canndas arc with respect to the IJniied State-, of America, it is the interest of (ireat ihitaiii to give oh rapid n developeinciit lo thr n'sourccs of these provinces as they iire capable of, and augment and increase tlinr strciiglh as imiilIi iih possililc, with a view to their continuing u distinct portion of America, secure under Uritish protection, and furnishing (Jreat Hrilain -the means of exercising an important influence over that country, in such a manner as cireuinstnnceH may render expedient. In furtherance of this object, it would be obviously fit that a coin- uiunion of feeling and an identity of political views, with a sense of increased strength and importance, should, as far ns can be produced, prevail in the two provinces ; this policy it altogether counteracted by u division, which tends to increase the opposition of tiie inna- bitantg of Lower Canada tu the institutions, habits and feelingi of those of Upper Canada, while the latter, becoming gradually more estranged from their sister province, mutt be naturally and iinpeieeptibly drawn into closer ties of connection with the adjoining states, whose inhabitants have the Haine laws, language, habits and inuiiners ; whrreas, by the union of the provinces, the present divided parts of the population would be gradually moulded into one common mass, with the same political views and feelings, ready i« act in concert, nnd to combine their resources for their common defence. That from the state of the representation in Lower Canada a very lurge body of His Majesty's subjects, amounting, it is estimated, to 8q,ooo souls of Driti.'h birth or of Dri tiih descent, are unrepresented in the Legislature, cither directly or indirectly ; II is Majesty's Hubjccts of French descent having it in their power to exclude, and actually excluding from the House of Assembly all who do not fall into their views, (which views, right or wrong, it is not ihe present object of your Petitioners to discuss j) and the elTcct has been that of the vast number of emigrants who of lute years have arrived from Cireat Britain and Ireland, probably not one twentieth part have remained wiihiii its limits, the rest have sought protection under English institutions, by settling in Upper Canada or in the United States. That by a union of the two provinces every British inhabitant therein would be repre- sented were some measure at the same time to be adopted to enable the township to retain members for themselves, and the claims of these inhabitants of British origin are so strongly built upon justice, that your Petitioners cannot doubt but your Honourublt; House would •ee fit to provide for the unrepresented state of these valuable and fertile portions of the province. That the Legislature of the Lower Province 1ms for a long time past been so much agitated by dissensions, and their deliberations so much engrossed thereby, that trade, agri- culiure, education nnd other mutters of general interest have been neglected ; whereas, under an enlightened and eflicient Legislature, undistracted by partial views and interests, your Petitioners confidently anticipate the rapid advancement of these, together with the improve- ment of the navigation and internal means of communication, the establishment of an Insolvent Debtors Act, of offices lur the registry of lands and mortgages, and other objects 80 necessary for security in commercial transactions. That whili your Petitioners thus point out to your Honourable House the necessity of, and advantages which, in their hninble opinion, would flow from a union, they arc far from wishing such a measure on any other than ecjuitable principles, without innovation in tlie laws or religion, or without doing violence to the feelings of any party, more than may be found necessary to conduce to the general good. May your HonoMiable House therefore be pleased to take these premises into yoin' consideration ; and your Petitioners rely with full confitlence on your wisdom for taking such measures thereupon ns will promote the best interests of these provinces, and long preserve tliern as valuable dependencies of the Crown of 'Jreat Biiiuin. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. 17th May, 1828. ; —':sm(amfis}i^^gasij^%>,