n^ ^nS. ^ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I Urn ta us lit u ■^^ 1 2.2 1.8 12b 14.0 1.25 iu 1.6 150mm V 9 T /APPLIED A IIVHGE . Inc ji^ 1653 East Main Strnet •= ^- Rochoster, NY 14tuj USA ^^^= Phone: 716/482-0300 .='.^=. Fax: 716/288-5989 e 1993, Applied Image, Inc., All Rights Reserved ' b* f ENCE GIVEN BEFORE lWMollMTSSIOl( APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE CERTAIN|raATrERS IN CO^fJECTION WITH THE NKOANAL M^Qi^^Jr 0/ PARUAMENT pfi^i(V8i>1sY & & ^Ai^aoir/rlmr^ to 'tint wwm% Mosrr ■"?, . ''-ki? EVIDENCE GIVEN BEFORE THE COMMISSION APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE CERTAIN MATTERS IN CONNECTION WITH THE LAOHINE CANAL PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT OTTAWA PRINTED BY a E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT 11AJEST7 1894 El ♦I «' CONTENTS. Evidence of Collingwood Schreiber ^*'*"■• do E. H. Parent ....„." ^ do Edward Kennedy *^ do Michael P. Davis ^®^ do H. J. Beemer .'.".'.'" 212 do Hon. J. J. Curran Z'Z.'.".".* ^^^ do George A. Drummond 247 do W. W. Ogilvie ""]] 255 do L. A. Lesage 262 269 t th du an We du( Tv\ car to f an} thii whi whi did 8tr( two piv( tot thin s mas verj onlj A. 1 of ir naak ] EVIDENCE Of Me88re. Schreiber, Parent, Kennedy. Davis, Beemer, Curran, Drummond Ogilvie and Lesage, given before the CommiBsion appointed to investi' gate certain matters which have arisen in connection with the Lachin* Canal. «^ Laciiine Canal Ikquirt. Montreal, 20th July, 1893. By Mr. McLeod : Q. You are the chief engineer of railways and canals?— A Yob Q. And also deputy minister of the Department of Railways and Canals ?-¥«« Q. When were you appointed deputy n^inister of railways and canals ?-l7^; an order in council of the 30th November last »"w«y» aou canals (—A. By W«ll^;hrr«*!.iTh^^^ state of the work on the Wellington bridge at that time?-A well, there had been certain instruct ons triven aa to how ii,otr^..i, ™ "ujef— a. ductod with r».ri to the Wellington .tSrbSge pt^pet b"t « to t^e rZ"; zfLT^s """^ w«"«»»-i" ott.'r.:»'rdV,?„rLSgi„te two abutments for the Grand Trunk bridge. abutments, and Q. Complete abutments to the Grand Trunk bridir« ? a n^^^i^t v ^ . Q. Of course the pier would have to be remoffld for 'the G?^^^^^^ SnT;?' pivot piei-s would have to be remodelled also?— A Th«r« !^L V? *k- •/! "'^' ^^'^ to that, so far as I recollect. I tMnk any ch~ge there wT in t& T^IT'^j th'«k there were two courses taken off and relaid ' ""^^^ "' ^ maso?ry?nrttVd"irwtL7-T'L7 ^'^^'^^ '''^- *!>« old A T?;?n?/e"hwo I*m-d-T4^ T'^" any change in the plans and estimates?- Q. To what depth was it intended to muko those foundations on which you reduced tlio i|unntitv ? — A. Well, I can only sfoak from hearsay as to what was done before I took charge. I do not exactly know what the depths wore. I only know that the minister told me that flrnt of all the bridges were to bo built at a cer- tain depth, I do not remember how many feet down, and arterwards it would ro- ouiro a certain estimate of coit, and that allerwards wo asked for an increawed depth. I vishud to know what it would cost to carry out such a plan, and Mr. Trudoau, who was then chief engineer, was not able to give tho information him- self; I think ho sent to Mr. Parent. Q. These changes were made after your appointment om chief engineer ? — A. Tho changes in tho depth of the foundation ? I am not sure how that is. Whether there were two changes or not, I am not sure. 1 do not know what that increaMod depth was intended to be, which the minister speaks of. My impression in that there must have boon some ditl'erenco between that and the last order. Q. Was the estimate prepared sufficient to cover the expense of tho increased depth ? — A. 1 think the orttimuto was too low in any case. Q. In what respect do you think it was too low ? — A. Well, I think when yon come to look at it, that the 8175,000— $19.'),000 as it would bo with the extra depth — was not sufficient to cover the cost of constructing a centre pier, a pivot pier and the abutments, together with the excavatioi\ and removal of tho old crib- work. Q. How much do you think that falls short of what it ought to cost ? — A. I can only speak as to that from the quantities whjch I think Mr. Papineau prepared afterwards, and, judging from that, I should think 8225,000 to 8250.000 would be a good price. That is my idea. Q. The total price of tho whole work ? — A. It appeared so to mo. Q. When did yon first visit tho work? — A. I think it must have been early in January, tho first time I was down in Montreal, Just before the session. They wore then just commencing to deliver stone at the flour sheds. I do not remember the exact date. Q. There was no work going on then ? — A. Thoy were just commencing. Q. Then I suppose tho force would be small at that time?— A. Very small. Q. Can you tell at what date }yu subsequently visited the work — what was tho next time? — A. I think the next time was the 6th April. I was down for about an hour. Q. The works were pretty well advanced at that time? — A. Yes. Q. Did you notice how the works were being carried on at that time? — A. Yes, I thought the force was too largo and I spoke to Mr. Parent about the matter. I may say that before that my attention had been drawn to it by an article in the Montreal Gazette, I think it was, and also a report came up from parties that there was a very large number of men, I think 1,300. Upon that I wrote to Mr. Parent. I have not the correspondence with mo, but I wrote to him upon the subject, stating, in eflfect, that I hoped the reports were very gieatly exaggerated, itc. I am only giving you the general tenor of the letter. I said if it were true that that number of men were employed, they must be very much in each other's way, and, instead of advancing 'he work, must be retarding it, or something to that effect. I think it was about the second week in March that I wrote that. Q. Did itappear to you that the men were crowded and impeding each other ? — A. Yes; there were certainly too many men, no doubt about that. And, as I tell you, I spoke to Mr. Parent about it, and gave him instructions to see that there were only a sufficient number of men employed to carry on the work to advantage. Q. Then you did not see tnework between that time and the previous time in November; in the interval yo: had not been in Montreal? — A. I think from January until the 6th April, I was not down here. Parliament was in session and I was not able to come. Q. Was there any stone cutting going on at that time in the sheds ? On the 6th April ? — A. There must have been. '# Q. Di.l you VMit the Hhe.lH?— A. I do not think I did, I do not think I wm roand t«. the Hhed» I came down by the C. P. R., which wan late, and I did not IJ^iil"." n'A*'^"^ four o clock und I ha.i to leave u^ain hy the Canada Athtnlic to^o back to Ot awtt, so tha I could not «o down at that time. 1 only went down to tKe bridge, that ih my recollection. Q. Did vou Hpoak to Mr. Parent at that time about the works ?— A Yen him at the I.I i'dT'" *" ^° ^'onversunt with the proKrosH of the work ?— A. I found (J. Did he appear to have a knowledge of the |)rogr. .« of the work, the number ^K'^rrTP i'^""^^""" reiK.rted to me from time to time by telephone to Ottawa ^„Un.,Mi.'h h'""*" " !""''«««"'>«'- reported to me from time to time the proKreB^ thit werrem .lo ed' "'' ^'^ ''° '^''^ ""^ ^'^'' ™" ^''" ""'"'"'^ ''* ™"° Q. Did he not give you any weekly reports of the number of men employed ? A. No he only reported overv other .lay or so, by telephone. There is a teltphone from Montreal to Ottawa, anclin that way ho reported But I must Hay it iJ otl satisfactory way, because you have nothing on record. Q. Did he report by telephone the number of men employed ?— A. He did not ' I think, up to that time, but subsequently he did. But there must have been .,une misunderstanding either in the boy m my office who received the messaKO or some- where else, there must have been a misapprehension as to the number of men because on one occasion he reported six hundred men and on another occasion four hundred men. But according to the pay rolls there must have been a number very much in excess of that. ^ Q, It did not agree with the pay-lists?— A. No. Q. Did it come under your observation that there was any waste of material when you visited the canal in April, or could you have told ?-A. No, I could not have told. I would not know it, going down in that way «^f ^\ H!'^ ^°" ""''*'" T^ ™®" idling ?-A. I noticed the men on the works. I noticed they were crowded, and not all employed aH they should be liothm ^'^ *'**^ actually idling? A. Yes, som ; of them were actually doing hnnr^A^J'^i-TK" ''°\'*',° ""a^ t '?.^,*"' ^*'"« removed or stone removed from the neigh- LTr«^i"^ ''^r''''^r'^- },^"^r\^''^ ""^ «^''"« b«'°fe' ^''ken from the bridge. but I saw stone being brought to the bridge. ^ ' Q. For the maNonry ?-A. Yes; I do not know that that applies to the 6th of bSd e '^"'^ *''' ^ *''"*^ afterwards and saw stone coming to the Q. On what other times did you visit the bridge after the 6th April ?— A I was there again on the 20th April. h i « i .apru , a. i was T„«n n,.^'^ ^?'t *^°" "''!'''^ ^"y ??^*r "","'^^'" of men ? -A. Yes ; th ore were too many nTrlT ^ i '•««non«trated with Mr. Parent that he had not had the force reduce! He promised then to see to it, and it was after then that he reported by telephone the number of men, after the 20th. ^ ^^>vi>uuae Q. Was there any stone cutting going on then at the sheds ?-.A. Yes „«^ ?• • • '' r bridges ?-A. I could not tell you. I do not know that there was any division line between the two bridges as regards stone cutting Woo ♦K y ^®P' ^^^. "™® separate, so we have been informed by witnesses Wasthereany cut ing going on for lock No. 1?-A. I could not tell you whSr there was at that time. Of course I know there was stone cut tor lock^No, Lbut I «'•« ^^^re more masons. Supposing they commence at too mair afferent places. -A. Oh, you could not do ext.-^;InHJr°r '■?r''" m** they cannot have so many masons, because it costs extiava^ntly?— A. It would make much more work, certainly .r^A^lt^T ^.t'tr^^o "jen. obtained for this work? There* was a contract, I obtai^feS fiTh^i^'i,?- ^'"^' *° '"PP'y "^^ ''*''«"• How could men have been frlMK "^ the work ?-A. Do you mean under that contract? Under that con- o.«naV„i T- "^T ^f^}'^i^^'^ "P^" requisitions from the superintendent, under the general directions of Mr. Parent, the superintending engineer linn 9 A that any men required for the work should have been got under requisi- Snf^n V «! 't -^Y' «"PP0f ng the superintendent required ten men, he would be bo.?nd t^f„?n-^hT tr««"<^ them and Mr. St. Louis, under his contract, would th« »?.? •. 'i" ^^""^^ H'* u™^"- ^^ *"y of t'^®"^ t^i-ned out to be unsuitable for inth^Sjlacr "*^ ^ "P*""^^°''®°^^'''"*j*'''^ ^^^™ '*"*^ ^*" for others Tf ^^" *•* *I'®.'^«? «hon'^ have been provided only on requisition ?— A. Certainly It was entirely in the hands of the superintendent to requisition a man. ^ m«n^« '! T* Mr. Parent's duty to requisition for the men; to see how many men were wanted and give requisitions for them ?— A. Certainly ^ Kenned "^""^^^ ^^^ requisition would bo given to Mr. Kennedy ?— A. Through Mr. Th«r?"«C!,w^l'''''"''^ understand from Mr. Parent the number of men required ?- Ihere should be an understanding between them ?— A. Certainly. Mr. Kennedy was supposed to be on the works. Mr. Parent has general charge; he was no alwrys v«!f,i' ? H* ""^ '?P'''*f *^ ^' *h«" •«"'■ «^ five times a day and see that things wwe Tn^he groK'^^ ^' """^ '"^ "'"''"^' ""''^ ^'' superintendent; with the officer inXrge «hnn8" yHV'^ *^k'"® a"y.»?8truotion8 given to that effect to Mr. Parent, that the work Ottawa h^r P^ "r>«'tion ?-.A. Yes I may explain. These tender's were sent to Ottawa by Mr. Parent-not the tenders but the abstract of tenders; I took them into and he°sSd ' 't '^'f ?k'- ''*" '^'^ ""'' ^«^' ^'«P"««** *« «'g" *'^«'". *« authorizeThe,^ and he said : Is not this a very unusual way of doing it?" I said : " Yes that I to U ° ''weT' il'sS ^?T^'^''*^/' >"^! '''^ r^ know%here was any great ob^ctU T tv.:„ „« ' .he said, "I won't sign it until you communicate with Mr. Parent " I then communicated with Mr. Parent. I thinlc he wrote me. and he also came to Ottawa,anu he explained to me the reason why this had be done It was all arranged before I had anything to do with the canal. i««„jH" J contract had been let before ?-A. No, not the contract ; but instructions issued to procure this labour. He explained that the contractor would have a much better control of the labour, that he always had the labour at command, and in ca8» of strikes there would not be the same difficulty there would be if he employed them himself. Afterwards I went and explained all this to the minister, and after hearing it and my telling him that Mr. Parent urged it very strongly— of course I knew very little about labour in Montreal — he then consented to sign it, which he did, and th& tenders were then accepted. But it was not according to his own judgment, I must say that, although I did not see, if properly carried out, why it should not be a very good plan. Q. That contract was for the Wellington bridge, in the first place ?— A. Yes, the Wellington bridge proper. Q. Then the same contract was extended to the Grand Trunk bridge ? — A. It was. The Grand Trunk bridge was in rather a peculiar position. Of course it was a very short time, no doubt, in which to carry on a work of this kind. But there had been some negotiations with the Grand Trunk Company for the construction of this bridge and I called upon Mr. Seargeant and Mr. Hannaford, with Mr. Parent, I think, and Mr. Hannalbrd said that they would not undertake it. The idea was to get them to undertake the building of it, but Mr. Hannaford said they would not undertake it, it was impossible to do it. I afterwards called in to see Mr. Seargeant, and he sent for Mr. Hannaford, and Mr. Hannaford told me the same thing. Mr. Seargeant said that under all the circumstances he would prefer not to undertake it. We had no alternative then but to proceed with the work. As the time was very short we could not it let by contract and it was concluded, on the advice of Mr. Parent, just to extend the same contract for the supply of labour for the Grand Trunk bridge. Q. There was no time for making contracts ? — A. No, it was very late then. Q. Do you know at what time that contract was made with Mr. St. Louis for the supply of labour for the Grand Trunk bridge — when it was extended ? — A. I do not remember now. Q. Do you know if Mr. Desbarats prepared the plans? — A. I could not say anything about it ; I only know that I got the plans from the office in Montreal. I know nothing beyond that. Q. You could not say anything as to what Mr. Desbarats might know about the plans ? — A. I know nothing whatever about it except what I tell you, that I got the plans from the office here. They were sent up to me under cover of a letter from Mr. Parent. I think I have heard Mr. Parent say that Mr. Desbarats pre- pared them. By Mr. Vanier : Q. How many hours' time did you spend on the work here during construction ? — A. A very few hours. Q. Don't you know that, as a mutter of fact, those plans were prepared in Ottawa from the very start ? — A. I do not. I saw Mr. Spence in charge of the draughting office in Ottawa, and he told me nothing there about them. Q. Was Mr. Def.'iarats employed in the department for some time? — A. Mr. Desbarats was, I think, employed in the department prior to coming down to Mont- real, I think in the draughting office of the canal. Q. Was he employed in Ottawa and residing there? — A. Yes, he was employed in Ottawa. Q. He was sent here to take charge of the works for some time? — A. I assume so. I know nothing about it except from what I have understood from the office at Ottawa ; I know nothing about anything prior. Q. Do you know wny he was discharged and replaced by another party ? — A. Yes, that was my doing. It was not a discharge that innplied disgrace, that was not the case; but it was considered that we had got a sufficient staff to attend to thifl work without Mv, Desbarats. If he had been discharged for a cause implying disgrace I should not have him employed now. Q. The commissioners have heard that these plans had been prepared in Ottawa and that Mr, Desbarats, the gentleman of whom I speak now, was intrusted with the preparation of those plans. The chairman, Mr. MoLeod, wrote to Mr. Desbarats, who was then in British Columbia, on the 29th Jane last, in which letter he aajs : "Dear Sir, — The commission of which I am chairman is now sitting in Mont" real to inquire into certain matters connected with the Lachine canal. The in" quiry necessurilv has to extend to the new Wellington street and Grand Trunk bridges, and to the cost thereof, which is far in excess of the original estimate. I would like to know whether you remember upon what basis the original estimates, for either of the bridges were prepared, whether the same were prepared by you, and if ail the work in connection with these bridges was contemplated when the estimates were made, and any other matters connected therewith which may be within your knowledge. Let mo hear immediately from you on receipt of this, and more particularly in answer to the question as to what the original estimate pro- vided for. Write me at once and as fully as possible, so that we may be able to consider any information which you may give us. " Yours truly, " HENRY McLEOD." This was addressed to George J. Desbarats, Esq., civil engineer, North Bend, Biitish Columbia. Mr. Desbarats first answered that letter oy telegram, dated North Bend, British Columbia, July 5th instant. "To Henry McLeod, Lachine Canal office, Montreal : Prepared plans and estimates for Mr. Lesage. Estimates covered both bridges, masonry increased afterwards. Have no memo, here, so cannot give detailed in- formation.— GEORGE J. DESBARATS." Later on the chairman got a letter from the same gentleman, dated on the same day as the telegram, in which he said : " Dear Sir, — I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 29th ultimo, asking for certain information about the Wellington street and Grand Trunk bridges. Last summer, under Mr. Trudeau's directions, I prepared plans and estimate for the work to be done on the Lachine canal at Wellington street, and acted as resident engineer on that work till the end of February. The estimate provided for the erection of two steel swing bridges, with the necessary masonry and 'protection work ; but as I prepared several estimates for this work from different plans, I cannot at this moment give the details of each scheme without referring to ray notes and sketches. These notes I have unfortunately left in Montreal. After the estimate had been made and during the progress of the work, several changes were made in the plans. These changes were chiefly to provide for a proposed increased depth of the canal. The effect of the changes was to increase the amount of masonry considerably, which would add somewhat to the excavation. The plans for piling were also changed. As I do not know what was actually done on the bridges I cannot say if the entire quantity of the item was increased or not. In any case, I should find it difficult to give any detailed information on this subject without consulting my notes and the plans of the bridges. I regret I am unable to give you any more definite information, but I trust that this wUl be of some use to you. " Yours truly, " GEORGE J. DESBARATS." Q. Would you infer from this correspondence that the plans were prepared in Ottawa?— A. No; not necessarily so, T would not think so. They might have been there. Mr. Desbarats was sent down here, I think, in November, and I presume that he must have been workinp at them in the office here, as he says he prepared them, for he would not have a jy thing else to do down here, I think. 8 Q. I think he will be able to prove later on that these plans and estimates were prepared in Ottawa and Mr. Parent was called on to countersign them ?— A. That may be so. It was before my time. I can only speak of what is known to me. f u u'^/*'" ®^®'" ^®® *^® pielimi nary estimates that were attached to the report of the chief engineer when the oi-der in council was passed ?— A. Yes ; I must have seen that. Q. Would you identify the preliminary estimates (showing them to the witness)?— A. Yes; that is the one I refer to, that is the one attached to the preliminary report. " ^°Py ^^ report from Mr. Trudeau, chief engineer of canals to the minister, dated October 19th, 1892, with the original estimate annexed," is put in as C 58. also correspondence of Mr. G. J. Desbarats with Mr. McLeod, and a copy of letter from the chairman, and telegram and letter from Mr. Desbarats in reply, as C 58. Q. Did yo ever see the specifications on these works ? — A. No. Q. Did you ever send to Mr. Parent any detailed information about the way the works were to be proceeded with, or anything that would take the place of specifi- cations ?•— A. No I this was all arranged before I had any connection with the canal. The quality of the work is ordinary bridge masonry. Q. Were not the changes in the plans made in Ottawa ?— A. I made the changes in the plans. Q. Look at exhibit C 59, and say if that is the letter you wrote to Mr. Parent about these changes ?— A. That must have been mine, no doubt. It reads as follows, being dated 20th February, 1893, and addressed to E. H. Parent, chief engineer, Montreal : — > b » w ii'-' ^^^^ ^'^> — •"• ^®"^ herewith plans showing position of bridges and piers at Wol ington street bridge ; also plan of the north abutment and highway under Wellington street bridge, and the plan of north abutment of the railway bridge. These are the plans you are to work by." That is Mr. Desbarats's corrected plan. That cut out 600 yards of masonry. Q. What position would Mr. Kennedy, as superintendent of the canal, occupy on those works; in your opinion what responsibility would he have?— A. He would be responsible for the proper conduct of the work and the economical carrying out of the work, under the general direction of Mr. Parent. Q. Did you not remonstrate to Mr. Parent once about Mr. Kennedy's receiving tenders in his office for supplies instead of in Mr. Parent's office ?— A. I remon- stimed with Mr. Parent for the manner in which a certain tender was sent out for timber, because I did not think it gave fair and open competition, Q. Does not this letter, dated December 23, 1892, refer to something of that kind and now produced as exhibit C 60 ?— A. Yes, that is right; that is mino. Q. Do you know anything about the relations in this office between Mr. Ken- nedy and Mr. Parent ? do you know if they were working well together, or if there were any differences ?— A. The only difference I am aware of was that on one occa- sion Mr. Parent stated to me upon the works that Mr. Kennedy had given instructions to the time-keepers not to allow him to see their books. While I was walking with Mr. Parent shortly afterwards, wo met Mr. Kennedy; I think it was the same day. However, I spoke to Mr. Kennedy about it, and he said that there was a mistake ; that he had never given any such orders, &c. Then Mr. Parent said, " I want no more said about it ; it is all a mistake." And I said no more about it. Q. There was an absolute necessity to complete these works by the first of May ? —A. They were to be finished by the first of May. Q. No matter at what cost ? A. No; I never V-<^rd anything about that. It was to be finished, no doubt, by the first. It was a o.,.e qua non. But you will find, T think, in any instructions I have over given to Mr. Parent, I have always drawn his attention to the necessity of seeing thf.t it was done economically. Q. Was it not understood at the start that the work was to he begun in Decem- ber last instead of March ?— A. That I know nothing about ; I never heard anything about it. I think i* would have been much better if it had been commenced very much earlier ; no doubt about that. 9 A ^^^!^ u ^?* *° Sunday work would not have been necessary in that case? —A. Well, that I cannot say, because you could not remove the water out of the canal for a long time without materially aflfecting the commerce of Montreal and the taking out of the foundation, tearing down the crib-work and buildintr the masonry necessary, had to be done when the water was out. vJ^- ^**" *'®".'i* not, lia^o Puehed the work after the first of May ?-.Aftor the first of May you could not have had any obstruction in the canai, you would have inter- lered with the commerce of this city very much. Februa ^ "^ iSJa^l'* ^°" '^*^'^"*'* ^ this when you stated in your letter of the 6th *k w^^ ^f "'' Sir —Please report to me on the progress made with the work on the Wellington street and Grand Trunk bridges and the works in connection there- with, and keep me advised of the progress of the work. Understand that failure to complete these structures by the opening of navigation would be a most serious lu&'ttor. I produce this as C. 61 ?— A. That is so. Trud^iu^— A ^ Y*"^'^ *"*'^ ''®^" ^'''*'®^ ^^''® ^^ ^*'"'" P'"®*'ece8sor, the late Mr. 1 k ^' I see in this correspondence something relating to the question of skilled abour._^ It appears there has been something about the value of the term " skilled labour. Would you tell us what you understand by skilled labour ?-A. Are vou speaking of skilled labour or skilled labourers ? In my mind they are two different things. "' J ^ Q. Skilled labour ?— A. Skilled labour would be that of a stone mason, of a car- penter, of a mechanic of some kind. Q. Would you please explain these two letters of yours on the subject? The first letter refers specially to stone cutters, and so does the second letter fEoads the letters to witness.) What would you understand by overtime in the contract labour ?— A. My understanding of it is, time worked by men over whatever may be considered a day s labour, ten hours or nine hours, or whatever it may be If ten hours 18 considered a full day's work, then 11 hours would be one hour overtime &c. y. Would you call night work by a night shift, overtime ?— A. If a man was working during the day and was asked to work after hours that would be over- time. Hut If you have a ^ang in the day and a gang at night, it is not termed over- lime, and never has been in the works I have been connected with in oiw?;i'ZVhaTe'Se" "''' prices of labour you based your estimates Q. The estimates for masonry work ?~A. I made no estimates. The esti- ^oa .r.*- '"^ / ^l my predecessor. His estimate was made, a parliamentary vote was obtained for it and re-voted. «,o«f^'Jf?"®*° ^^®''® ««*'™»,te8 you prepared yourself or got prepared in the depart- ment, of the ordinary work to be done in the different paris of the country ?-A Do you mean under this labour contract? J "=■' r„^ ?' ^° ' 1° Se°?™'' ^ji.ose estimates that you prepare every day in the depart- ment. On what prices of labour do you base them ?-A. I do not understand you. We do not prepare any estimate of labour. ^ i«hn.S9^ T® w'^® ««*>"»*« of yo'-k. It must be based on some known prices of n T general average of labour. It varies. Q. At what price would you value common pick and shovel labourers ?— A It Snf iVin""^ ™«P^«''° *^® T*'°" *'^*'»« country. In Nova Scotia I should call it about ei.io or «1.15 In Ottawa I should call it more. $1.25, $1.30 or «1.40. In ionH f k' "°^«™tand— I am not speaking from my own knowledge— but I under- ToronS. ' *^-^^ ^ '^*^- ^"* ^ "^^^^ ^''^ any work here or in Q. Did you send this telegram to Mr. Parent in which you state : « In exola- K wLf..?^ /^*K '''''i®^ labourist cents, and good labour 15 cents per hour." To what class of labour did you refer ?-A. Skilled labourers were supposed to be handy men about the derricks, &c. Ordinary labour was supposed die good or- 10 dinary labour for pick and ebovel work, and any rough work of that kind. But there was nothing Hkilled in connection with it at ail. Q. Was not the contract for labour depending on the final answer to thiu ex> planation you gave to Mr. Parent ?— A. I do not understand you. Q. Did you not have to close that contract then with Mr. St. Louis ? — A. What . produced that telegram or letter yon have there was t^is : Mr. St. Louis, or his solicitor, came up to Ottawa to remonstrate against m> ' ways and Canals on the 25th April, 1893 ? — A. I think so. Q. Beferring in that letter to the preliminary estimate you said : " When the estimate made by Mr. Trudeau, the then chief engineer, and by Mr. Parent, superin- tending engineer, early in 1892, was considered, &c. 7 — A. Yes; in that letter I was referring to things generally. Q. Did you not object to the price paid for cement ? — A. Yes. Q. In the letter of May 30th, 18P3 ?— A. Yes. Q. Before these works were constructed did you ever see any others where • large pile of ice had to be taken out lefore starting ? — ^A. No ; I never saw so much ice removed in any work I had to do. Q. At how much per ton would you value the removal of the ice ?— A. I was not here when the ice was removed, but from all I have heard I should think from $1 to $1.50 a yard wouldn't be out of the way. Q. Did you not give orders to Mr. Parent to change the prices he bad adopted before starting to remove the old bridges? — A. I did ; yes. Q. Were not the old bridges unsupported already when you gave orders to change the mode of procedure ? — A. No. In the case of the Grand Trunk bridge, for instance, I gave instructions that it was not to be removed until a certain time. To my amazement I got word up in Ottawa that they had torn up the bridge, torn the track off, &c., which was a very serious matter for the Giand Trunk. That was contrary to my orders. Then I had the bridge shifted so that the Grand Trunk could use it, so as not to break their connection for any lengthened period. Q. Why were Mr. Parent and Mr. Kennedy suspended ? I see some corres- pondence here on the matter. — A. My recollection is that they were suspended for not carrying out the instructions. Q. Were there any specific charges or any special cases ? — A. No ; no charges made against any one beyond the fact that the instructions were not carried out. Q. On whose order were they discharged ? — A. On the minister's order. Q. Did you report on the matter? — A. You havo all my reports before you. Q. It would take me a long time to find them ? — A. I made a report to the minister and you will find it there. Q. Did you have anything to do with. this order ? Did you make a report to the minister? (hands a document to the witness). A. Yes ; there must have beea a report. It was written on the back of the report. 11 Q. It reads thus : " Suspend Parent and Kennedy. In the meantime appoint Marceau to act in Parent's place and Douglas of this department to assist him and have inventigation made into the whole expenditure on the Lachine canal, and if necessary get authority from council to take evidence under oath "—A That is signed by Mr. Huggart, Q. Will you bo kind enough to send us a certified copy of that report made to the mmister?— A. As soon as I found out this morning that you wished to examine me, I telegraphed to Ottawa to send my reports down. One of my clorkH will come down to-night. By Mr. Emard: Q. What date is that ?— A. May 10th. Mr. Vanieb. — All this correspondence will be filed. By Mr. Douglas : Q. Would you look at that order in council and say if that is the order under which the expenditure was made?— A. I have no doubt this is the order in council for what was started. Q. This order in council is based on a recommendation of Mr. Trudeau to Mr Parent that the work should be done by day's labour. Now, in your experience of pub ic works do you think that, either by corporation or by government doine work by day's work is a good system ?— A. I have never been in favour of it. Q. At the time you became chief engineer of railways and canals, did you assent to this order in council, or was the matter brought before you in regard to chan^inff to a contract sys.em?— A. I was appointed on the 30th November, and I took charge the second week in December. Everything was new to mo, and this matter did not come to my notice until a little while afterwards. Q. Had you time to change the labour system ?— A. No ; I do not think so. Q. Do you consider that reliable contractors could have done the work in the same time at a much less expense than it has cost?— A. I think I have already an- swered that. I think $250,000 was a liberal price to do the work under the circum- stances. Q. Does that $250,000 include the plant?— A. It includes everything for sub- structure, includes everything. y% '^^.i-® best of your knowledge would you, as a contractor, undertake that work for $250,000 ?— A. Yes. Q. Then the only reason that you did notchange the system when vou assumed oftice was that you had not time to advertise for tenders ?— A. Wo had' not time to prepare everything necessary to invite tenders at that time. Q. Would you look at these plans signed 20th February ? Is this a copy of the plans sent from here?— A. I reduced the masonry considerably by not making it so Q. Then your responsibility with regard to the plans and the work does not date beyond the 20th February when you signed your name on the plans?— A. No. Q. And those plans were lOt prepared under your direction in Ottawa? (show- ing the witness other plans)— A. I never saw them until I received them from Mr l:^arent. Q. During the time the tenders were received for labour, did you know that there were a nur^er of mills closed down and a number of men out of employment ? ~ \} k "°*^ ^ ^' ** ^^^ *™® ^^^ tenders were received, but I was aware there would be a number of men thrown out of employment the moment the water was taken out of the canal. .^ Q— I>on'tyou know that in the winter time there are always a number of stone cutters, masons and skilled labourers out of employment?— A. I am aware that in all cities there are a large number of mechanics thrown out of employment by reason of the seventy of the weather. 12 Q. Do you not think that during a time when so many people are unemployed' the contract system for labour is a very bad system ?— A. I am not able to offer an opinion about that. I think that with "proper competition for labour, if the system is properly conducted afterwards, I do not see any great objection to it. Q. Do you consider that the abstract of tenders for labour shows a proper com- ?)tition ? — A. I do not know. I think five people were invited to tender, so Mr. arent told me, I think. Q. Do you think that invitations to tender should be publicly made, as a rule ? — A. I think it would have been better if they were publicly known. Q. Then how was it on that schedule of tender for stone cutters, masons and skilled labourers, an addition was made of common labour, of which there was to be plenty at the time, and which witnesses here say only cost from $1.10 to 81.25? — A. I know nothing as to what labour cost here at the time. I only know that when the tenders were received Mr. Parent explained that the ordinarj' labour of their own employees would be sufficient. That was at the start when the tenders first came in. It was subsequent to that when an objection was taken to paying 81.87J for ordinary labour, and Mr. St. Louis insisted that that covered all kinds of labour, mere shovel- lers, &c., that this other arrangement was made and we thought of a compromise. Q. Then there was no competition for ordinary labour? — A. No. It says there "skilled labourers," and Mr. St. Louis contended that that reallv covered good shovellers. That was his contention, but the minister did not hold that good. But afterwards as a compromise he offered this other plan which, upon consultation by telegraph with Mr, Parent here, was accepted. Q. Did you accept the amount of 81.50 on the recommendation of Mr. Parent as a local price of labour ? — A. It is rather unfair to make me answer a question from memory about something which is not in writing. So far as I can recollect Mr. Parent replied to that for good labourers he did not think 81.50 would be out of the way at all. Q. Would not " choice labourers " include skilled labourers as well as common labourers ? — A. No, because he was aware what was in dispute. There was a dispute about 81.87J for " skilled labour," not " skilled labourer." (Mr. Schreiber's letter to Mr. Parent of March 6th, 1893, is read, also a telegram fVom Mr. Schreiber to Mr. Parent of 13th March, 1893, in which these words occur : " Is one dollar and fifty cents a fair rate for common labourers in Montreal such as shovellers and pickers? If not, how much less? Please reply to-night"). — A. This is an answer to that. This came in reply to that. By Mr. Emard : Q. In mentioning choice men in the telegram, he meant to say choice labourers, or choice men as labourers? — A. Good, choice, common labourers, that is the way I took it. By Mr. Douglas : Q. The department accepted responsibility for.this contract ? — A. Certainly. Q. And for granting the contract for the Grand Trunk labour to Mr. St. Louis as well ? — A. The extension, certainly. Q, At the time you were visiting the works did you see the demolition of the old cribwork ? It has been asserted here that one reason for the excessive number of hours of skilled labour on the Grand Trunk bridge was because it required skilled labour to tear the cribwork ? — A. I should not consider tearing down crib work required skilled labour. Q. Did you see it being torn down ? — A. I did. Q. Do you consider that the men who were required to tear down that work could be called skilled labour ? — A. No, I would not. Q. How many men about a derrick would you consider skilled labour — a hand derrick ? — A. I think about three or four men. 13 Q. It hati been given in evidence here, two men V— A. I should say three or four. Q, What position would they bo in ?— A. The m«n hauling stone would not have anything to do with it, but all those that have anything to do with the gearing of the derrick and aUo looking after the swinging of the stone, might be considered employe" t''^ supplementary estimates foitL anv ?ime wff h^Z'w^ l'^ " "'^'''"'- y*'" ^^"^^ ^o"^ "^« '^^'^^^y authorized to procied at any time with he work lu connection with the repairs of the undermentioned strnc- tures, namely, 'so and so,' whilst the old lock No. 1, for which the sum 0^5 800 was asked, is not to be rebuilt." That letter was sent to i?KennX on the isJh March, were you awnre of that letter ?_A. I think not at the time 1 remember a conversation with Mr Parent in his office. I asked Mr. Parent whether"? wat ^ntTt "hnVLHiH^"*! ""■■'■■■' t"=V- r=*" g'^"" some orders verbally to Mr. St. Louis da^ I'^^tJtfl "'".^"^^'^ J^^^'-'g rd anything to Mr. Kennedy before that ffi;nt K^^fi .»^ -5°"^^ '"'" P?"" ^''ok and I came across the vory'^letter. Mr. Parent had forgottonit and was taken a little by surprise. ol lui. 18 Q. Then the responsibility for not stopping the cutting of lock No. 1 stone is be- tween the two, the superintendent and the superintending engineer?— A. Yes, between the two in this way, that it was under my instruction that the work was not to be proceeded with. Mr. Parent should have seen that it was stopped, and he apparently did his part by writing to Mr. Kennedy to say it was not to go on, and Mr. Kennedy should have stopped it. But then Mr. Parent should have seen to it. Q. From your knowledge as a contractor, would you look at exhibit C 30 in whichthere is a calculation of the timber bought and the timber to be used in the work and the timber to be accounted for. In the item of square timber, which run, I presume from 8 by S up to 20 by 20, there is a shortage of 900,000 feet to be accounted for. Now, what proportion of the timber of that description used in the false works would lie on the bank of the canal after it had been used, suppose a hundred per cent goes into the false work of the character you saw on the canal ?— A It would depend very much on the position in which it was placed. All timber used in trestle structures and road wavs, &c., should be available and should be upon the ground afterwards. Timber used in piling or anything of that kind, driven in to form dams, would not necessarily be upon the ground afterwards. Q. The timber you saw in the platform and in the tomporary bridges 7— A. That should either be in permanent works or it should be in stock. Q Then I come to the item you were talking about, the tongued and grooved Awards, one-inch boards. The tongued and grooved boarding presumably went into the cofferdam, and one-inch boards went into a large number of sheds or into the cofferdam. I find in the tongued and grooved boarding a shortage of 84,000 feet, even supposing that could be accounted for by being broken up in the dam, there is still another shortage to be accounted for of 600,000 feet board measure of three inch deals. Now, those deals were used on platform« at the bottom of the canal, on drive-ways down to the bottom of the canal, and that platform on the temporary bridge Now, what proportion should you think would remain on the bank of the wood used in those structures ?— A. All planks used in these road ways should be there excepting such as may have been used in the permanent work. Q. This shortage is supposed to have been taken out? — A. I do not know any- thing about shortages. i_ « . , Q Now Henderson had a contract for supplying some $15,000 worth of timber; beyond that 81<'>,000, $45,000 was bought without tender. What should be the departmental process in obtaining that large amount of timber ? Had Mr. Kennedy any authority from the department to buy $45,000 additional?— A. I think mv correspondence you have there will show the course that should have been pursued. I think you will find several letters from me there stating that all materials for these canals have to be purchased by tender and contract. The abstract of tenders sent up to me for submission to the minister were not contracts. That was the course that should have been pursued, no doubi. Q. This $45,000 worth of timber should have been designated by quality, kind and dimension, and purchased by contract?— A. Yes. Q. Well, does the hurry in which this work was rushed obviate responsibilities in that way ?— A. I do not think so. , . , ^ u Q On the Curran bridge there were six derricks; how many men would you think would be required for six derricks?— A. I do not know what the position was. Were they building derricks? , ,. , , ^ ^ ^ ... ,, , ^ Q. Yes; building derricks ? A. I think about three builders could work to a Q There may be six or seven derricks. I find on the Curran bridge there were 29 meii working on the derricks, and building masons. I find on the two derricks there were some 30 to 40 men. What would you consider the cause of that ?— A. I could not give any cause for that. ,, j.. ,. « _ j *• Q. As a contractor you have obsorvod the time list of ^-our OYci'seers and time* keepersfi-equently, haveyounot?— A. Yes. Q Now, would you observe that time list. It refers to the Grand Tiunk bridge. Would you consider in time-keeping that that list is a clean list of unbroken hours? —A. It would look a remarkable thing. At the same time I was not there. 19 Q. But as a contractor I want you to eee the unbroken hours ?— A. It looks strange. Q. As a contractor have you paid a similar pay-list?— A. I could not give any information about that. The time-keepers should do that. Q. But you think the unbroken hours is remarkable for the wintier time ?— A It looks so. Q. Do you consider it a bad principle to have tenders opened in the office of the superintending engineer or of the superintendent, and abstracts sent to Ottawa without the original tender? Is it not a system leading to the manceuvering of tenders ?— A. We do not know that our leading officers are doing that kind of thing. We have to place confidence in some one. Q. What is the system?— A. The original tenders, as a rule, are not sent to Ottawa; not when they are received by the local people. Abstracts are sent. Q. Is it permitted by the department and the officers under your charge, to alter appropriations, to charge work to be done under one appropriation to another? A. That is contrary to rule. I have no power to do it. Q. If you received an appropriation for repairs, you have no power to expend that money on the Wellington street bridge ?— A. No, I have no power to do that That is contrary to the rules. Q. You observed the character of the materials supplied for the use of this bridge ; did you consider there was an extravagant purchase ?— A. I considered there was more material purchased than should have been purchased, no doubt more than was required. Q. How was it as to quality?- A. I am not able to say except with respect to a few articles that I saw, they seemed to be of very good quality. Q. What plan did you have adopted for filling the crib with stone at that time ? Would you have carted it from Lachine, eight miles ?— A. I think the plan I would have adopted would be to put enough stone into the cribs to hold them down and wheel into them by barrows, or something of that kind, and after that bring it in by water. ° Q. Then there was no objections to hauling it eight mile^ ? — A. You have the stone at the old crib to begin with. That could not be hauled eight miles. Q. Were the stones at the old bridge sufficient to weight that down without hauling stone from Lachine ?— A. I should suppose the cribs were filled to the top and I think they were. There ought to be enough there to load them down. I am really speaking as to that without actual knowledge of the quantity of stone that was in the old crib work. Q. Are you aware of the practice of stone-cutters on various works? For instance take the Sault Ste. Marie canal ; how much stone cutting is going on there how many yards ?— A. That is a very large work. There are some 70,000 cubic yards of masonry in the lock; and I think on the two last visits I made they had from 60 to 75 stone masons. Q. How many yards of ashlar were to be cut?— A. There would bo about 13,000 yards. Q. What would you say to 180 masons charged on this work for cutting stone ? Of course the two works are not being carried on under like circumstances. A, I think there would necessarily be more stone-cutters here to cut the same quantity of stone in the same time. Q. The number of stone-cutters runs from 175 to 188, 193, and sometimes over 200 for cutting 1,500 yards. Now, you state there are 70 masons on the Sault Ste Marie canal for cutting 13,000 yards?— A. Yes. Q. Now, as contractor you have had large gangs of men working night and day. Has it been your practice to pay a night and day gang different prices?- A. Yes. Q. What price do you pay your night gang when specially engaged at aisrht ? — A. I have paid extra wages at night. Q. Have you paid the same wages ?— A. Yes, I have paid the same wages oight and day. # ° 20 Q. Do you pay night watohmen more than day watchmen ? — A. It depends upon circumstances. When wo have a number of night watchmen and day watoh- men, they get the same. Sometimes the night watchmen get iesR. Q. What is the practice on the- Intercolonial ? — A. A night watchman gets no more than a day watchman ; and night labourers get no more than day labourers. Overtime we pay more. By Mr. McLeod : Q. You said yesterday that you then Ejht $225,000 to 8250,000 would be a suf- ficient sum, ns I understood you, to build ibese works ? Is that what you intended ? — A. Yen. It did not include the superstructure. Q. You also said that the cost of masonry would be about $25 a yard, und you gave an instance where it did cost that. But that was very hard granite ? — A. It was, Q. Can you give me an idea of the difference in cost between that very hard granite and the limestone of Montreal ? — A, There is considerable ditferonce in the cost of cutting, Q. Could you say about what the difference would be ? — A. No ; it would be a good deal more. Q. Would it be double the cost, do you think ? — A. The cutting would ; yes. Q. Do you consider that the large platform to the level of the top of the canal was necessary ? — A. Do you mean the roadway on which the travel passes ? Q. No ; I mean the platform, the staging in the canal ? — A. If I had been locally in charge of the work I should not have done it in that way; I should have taken a different course. I do not think I should have required that platform. Q. Taking into consideration that the water was to be let out of the canal ? — A. I do not think I should have required the platform. I should have done the work by derricks and large buckets, like dump carts. Q. Would it have cost more to erect that platform during the time the water was in the canal than it would after the water was taken out ? — A. My recollection is that that platform — I am not sure whether it was piles or trestles — if it were tres- tles it would be easier to set it without the water, and it would have cost less. Q. Do you think there were too many platforms in the bottom ? — A. I would not have adopted that plan of doing the work at all if I had been on the ground. By Mr. Vanier : Q. Did you not understand that Mr. Kenned}' was really the man in charge of these works? — A. He was the man in charge actually upon the ground, under the general directions of Mr. Parent. Q. Under the circumstances you think it would have been possible for Mr. Parent to discharge or suspend Mr. Kennedy if the latter was not doing right? — A. If Mr. Parent thought that Mr. Kennedy was not carrying out Mr. Parent's instruc- tions, he should have reported him and asked to have him suspended. Q. Do you think it would have been prudent to do so, say about the middle of April ? — A. It would have been prudent to do so, because Mr. Kennedy would have asked for explanations, and if he had said, I will not carry out Mr. Parent's instruc- tions, I am perfectly satisfied he would have been removed. But I do not know of anything of what he did or did not do, except in the instance I speak of; the Grand Trunk bridge, where, on two occasions, quite contrary to my orders, contrary to my positive orders, the track was taken up, and they were lifting the bridge and were stopping the traffic of the Grand Trunk. Whether that 5s Mr. Kennedy or Mr. Parent I could not say, but it was contrary to my instructions at any rate. Q. Did you ever hear that Mr. Kennedy'' bad been recommended as nveraeer on these works by such men as Senator Drummond, Senator Ogilvie and Mr. Curran ? — A. I heard that witlun the last month or two from, I think, Mr. Parent who told me. 21 Q. Don t jrou think that being backed up by such men as these it would not have been possible to suspend him during the progress of the work?— A I am per- fectly satisBed of it, that if Mr. Kennedy had said: I will not carry out the instruc- tions there would not have been the slightest difficulty, notwithstanding Mr Drum- mond or anybody else ; he would have been suspended or dismissed. xtr ii^V ^^** P"^^'*'" 0^ ^^^ CO** ^^ been added by the changes in the plans ?— A Well I have not made those calculations at all. The thing can readily be ascer- tained by taking it from plans. j = «i .u Q- You said yesterday that between $225,000 and $260,000 would have covered the cost of the substructure, taking into account all the circumstances. Then to hnd the total cost of the two bridges you would have to add the prices of the super- structures. That would make, in round ligures, about $300,000 ?— A. Yes, about that . J*' . "^"i" <''»«"ge8 would have added to tho surplus cost of about $130 000?— A. 10 what ? ' Q. To the original estimate; tho original estimate was $170,000?— A If the ISltoT^imm^^''^^^^ complete was $300,000 that would have exceeded the Q. Don't you think that Mr. Kennedy, the superintendent, was the only man that was in immediate contact with tho contractors?- A. The proper way would be for Mr. Parent to give his orders through Mr. Kennedy, no doubt about that. I would not think it right for Mr. Parent to go and interfere with the work. His interference, whatever there might be, should be through Mr. Kennedy. There is no doubt about that. I would not go on to the work and interfere with either of tnem. *u ^A ^^ 'i"*'* * general and invariable practice amongst engineers to transmit the orders through one head ?— A. Yes. i "uoiuit Q. And hold that head responsible for transmitting the orders'— A Yes ♦• % .u'**/"" ^ m^ *.^'*!' ^''- ^*- ^o"'« ^'^'^ off«'"ed to take charge of the construe- wA ^'■f!'?^''!!",'' »>"dge?-A. As I told Mr. Parent, ifl-. Kennedy was to have charge of the whole work going on there. Q. I suppose all the pay-lists and all the accounts were sent to your office for final revision and approval ?— A. Yes; they were certified by Mr. Parent Mr Kennedy, and the timekeeper, I think. j' » « t, i,xr. Q. But no payment was to be made unless you. finally approved ?— A Thev would have to go through my office. j- fi »u. .«.. xney to you, I suppose ? — A. They were Q. The pay-list of those works were sent all sent to me and the accounts, too. T n.% ^"^ ^°u 'Tfl^^Jh pay-lists in due time?— A. The first pay-list we received, iVcei^ed^*^" ^" ^ ^ ^ ^^** '^ ^''® ^''** account for pay-list that we £y Mr. McLeod ; Q. Would that be for March ?— A. For March and part of February. The first ^*^ n m^'''"^ ' ^ "^y °^° recollection, was about the 20th April. t^. What was the reason tbey assigned for its not being transmitted ?— A I cannot tell you ; I tried to get them before that, but there seemed to be some difficulty in having them prepared ; but of course there was a large volume of papers and they nad to be written out in duplicate. ^ P«r«?; ff*K-" ^m ^®"°®u^^ ^t^ ^°f through with them, as I understand, Mr. l-arent, in his office here, had them checked in one sense ?-A. I do not know how ™!ii !? them but I imagined all the time, and all the rates were runout correctly, and so forth. Still, they should have been in before. Q. The fault lay in this office here?— A. On the 15th we look to have every- thing m so that we may pay on the 15th. By Mr. Vanier ; t««H?:*^*"** *''®,*^® "*"??• qualifications that you require from a man who is superin- tendent of a canal— on all canals in this countiy?- A. That I am not exactly in a 22 of them. i ao not know what qualifications are required would think 80. *^ ^ ^""^ ""^ the general work in good order?— A I tbi,ki„d?-A. IfIknew^tno"w tt .el 'ri " °°"t '»<»"7 »"£ works of 7;:'J^« ««°««ionally ; no doubtabouUhat And un^«r nSf "''•"^ *"^'"««'" *« ^"^t ^^e Jm^|:;=^-{r:^jSt«-^r£S -dtheSaultcana, therewie\g^:KnTrk7t S^^^^^^^ woui?h?v7fSo3\L7w?rk. a He'lr"", '"f ^^^"P'-' «— ^ere else, you to do besides these works iThoKate coZ dow^^^ i^l ^'^ ^«d nothTng But then our men in charge are sunnr.«pH t„ T *°^ ^*'°^®** *^'«'" them, no doubt, considerable experience, af I understand fll^ '""'• ""^.^••- P«^«°t i« « "an of but I understand he is 'a man of cSpr/hu ^ ^^•''"- ^« '« * «^'anger to me been connected with the conTtrultir of cTnai^ fX^rr' '" '"''' ^^^^' ''"^ ^^^ Kenn^J,;T^p7r\r«^^^^^^ relations existed between these two SSmen ' ^ '^'*°' ^'^ understand what Sp- S''t^''*'-J k"o^ nothing^abouUt Mh. MoLbo«.-I know nothin| about it has been wuSa7n '" °°' ^"'^^ ''' ^^^^^^ '*>« «*"ed -^Pon to produce a letter that ;X£¥^^r^^S^^^^^^^^t^ -:^-t kind on th^?-.eT;'e^ '''•~'^' ""^* '^^^^ '* P'''^"'^^^ "o^- I want to question Mr. Schreiber m!: pSx'-i;rTacuS:rt'*''- ^f •?"*^'> P^-^^-^ ^'•'^t letter, a few severe wo^ds abl? :;i'^„y ilTSrKernl"^^ '^ ?« '-''»''«-«. -^ n2trhetS^:.r/«' ^« -"''e -l^n^d^d^^nt trJitL'^^tre§;Cs' the ^^^^-ii^^^t^ 23 3Ib. Vaniib.— That is the letter I am refeninir to. Mb. Pabbnt.— Then you have it. Mb. MoLeod. — 18 it a private letter ? Mb. Pabbnt.— No, it is an official letter, bu. a few days afterwards it was witb^ drawn. u }^Kt' ^bohibald.-So far as I can learn from what Mr. Parent says, and from what Mr. Kennedy says now to me, any letter that existed in turning out matter was the result of a little tiff, which took place beetween Mr. Kennedy and Mr ±'arent,whioh was subsequently made up and the letter was destroyed, or withdrawn' and the parties reconciled to each other. Now if that is the case it is certainly improper that what was the affair of a moment, what was a little temporary mis- understanding between the parties and has been made up between them, should be made the isis of some serious inquiry before this commission. It appears to me to be an attempt to make white black. You can ask Mr. Parent whether that is the case or not, you can ask Mr. Kennedy whether that is the case or not, and if both of them declare that it was the result of a temporary misunderstanding, and it was withdrawn on both sides, it appears to me it is a matter which the public have nothing to do with, and which this commission has nothing to do with. Of course if the commission want to give to the affair an appearance different to that which it really has, I cannot interpose any obstacle. Mb MoLeod.— That is not at all the desire of the commission; we have no desire of that nature, not the slightest. f.J^^^ ^^^l^\T^J}^^^ "° '*°"^' ^^® *®"«^' 8t'" exists, and I ask the productioD of that letter by Mr. Parent. Mb. Pabent.— I would ask leave to strike a few lines out of that letter. Mb. Vanieb.-— I would like to have the letter entire. Mb. Pabent.— I no longer have the letter entire. Mb. Atwateb.— I think the letter you refer to has already been produced. Mb. vanieb.— I am sure it has not been produced. Mb. Abchibald.— I interpose an objection at any rate, I say this letter ought not to be produced unless it is produced by Mr. Parent himself, subject to my examination upon it. . Mb. Vanieb.— That is all right. ^^- K^iNNEDT.— So far as I am concerned, I have no objections to its being Mb. Atwateb.— It seems to me the question the commisuion is interested in, is how tar the personal differences between these two gentlemen may have retarded the progress of the work, or caused trouble. If a quarrel between these two officials has led to extra expense on these works, or to their being badly supervised, it seems to me a very material matter that these gentleman can hardly patch up between themselves atlerwards. But if it was a mere difference of opinion that led to nothing, the com- mission need not bother about it. Mb. Pabbnt.— It is a private letter and I would object decidedly to giving the Whole letter. I would like to give the important part to the commission ; what is not important, I do not see why I should give it. Mb. Vanieb.— That will be for the commission to judga. Me. Kennedy,— Mr. Parent and I had a few words privately together in the office at the Wellington bridge, which ended in Mr. Parent writing me a letter A day or so afterwards when Mr. Parent came along I asked him if he intended to keep the original of that letter on file ? He said : " We were a little hasty at the tinae and I have not thought anything about it until now. Since you make expla- nations about it, we will let the matter drop." He wrote me a private letter, furnish- ing the original of that official letter, which was torn out of the book, as he says and was destroyed. I have no objection whatever to the letter being produced. Of coarae, I told bia, if that letter was to be considered oiiicial and to be used, that I would write hun a letter in reference to it that would not be pleasant to have on record. Mr. Parontsent the original, and he wrote me a personal lettermerely telling 24 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ -.k, and .0 bales, independent. I have^fflTveJyit^^ '^'"'^' '*""" ''"' ''««" ''^^^t^d by it, it cannot this i^^-^f^or^thTjZl^^^^ •" M'-. Archibald's producing about its being maje public ""^^^^ commission, allowing them to judgf judgment upra-"'"PP'^^ '' '« ^'^- »« ^r. Archibald privately and we form our tion.t;t"ran Vct>'n'?orhetScL'nS - ^^jec ^^¥C' "^ybaving an oppoffifS ela^^d^nrtr^L^eraTtt^t^TS ""SE^^^Ifn^^ ''""""^"' '*"^"' '' '' '^ ter in o;dt To enabi^Yhertrcom^r l^'^^j' '? '^^^^^^^"^ ^^^ them to have this let- tween these oflHcials, or Thow tSv mav ^1"^" V- ^*'** '''« ''^'^tions were bl the canal, then I think treyroutettlfoThl*'''"' Ti^ "' connection with the letter will not cast any light upon that nofntil^'J''"' 'f ^^^^ ^l^ ""^ ^P'"*"" that the work was done, it is in theivWill^^ ^ ! °^ account for the way in which eary. They may come La co„ Ls on ?a 2? on "V^f"' '^'^ ''^ "'' *^""^ '' " '««« Schreiber, and if you think it is nec^ssa y tp examine iZ ^""^ "™ «?«™i«ing Mr. in this correspondence between Mr. Pai4t\nd M V^ T ?™«thing contained need to have that correspondence before voulHi. ^^""^'^y' th^n. of course, you the gentlemen who wroti the lettera and S^ .i? *^® ^''J'P®'' *'°"''« ''^"W be to call going on with the examination of Mr 8 what I would do; that is my practice all my life ur.A oT''" 5?c^,^o»-Yo" have given us what you consider the price for removing ice, and a so for the cribwork. The ice, you said, would cost about $1.50 a yard ?— A I think I stated in giving that price that I was not present when the ice was re^ moved and 1 only gave that price upon information I had got from different parties connected with the work. "^ ♦1-- i^'-,*®'^^,^ ^"^'<^ yards was the estimate. Removing cribwork, what do vou i-« u ^t *'°^' *® '^l"",^® cribwork per yard ?-A. I am aware that was a very difficult job on account ot the frozen condition of the cribs. I think, under the cir- cumstances, likely it would cost a couple of dollars a yard i.nnN: W«"'^ that include carting away ?-A. Yes; that would include cartage, it 18 only a short distance. It would certainly include cartage off the banks. y. liien for removing this masonry, what would be a fair price ?— A. I am not in a position to say that. I think you will readily understand how impossible it is ^LT A^^'ir^ ^' *"^ P?°* ""^ f*"** '^'"^ ^*"y correctly. If the cement was very good and there was a thorough bond to the stone, that would make it an expen- sive thing to tear to pieces. If, on the other hand, the mortar was not a bon^ to the stone, it would be very much easier and cheaper to do. .« 1,9 '^."■^%}^ ** ^^^\^^y *>?«* quality of mortar it would be just about as hard as S'toTi^eak^'i sToJe."^"""' '' ^'' ^P"^' ' ""''' ''''''' """^^"^^ ^P"* ^^^^ -« Q. Supposing it were rock— would it be removed as easily as rock ?— A. No- 1 think not, and I will tell you why. If you are removing rock, of course you blast It. Un the other hand in removing masonry, you would have to remove it more carefully to preserve the stone. Q. What would be the price of rock excavation ?— A. According to the class of rock. I would have to see the quality of the rock. Q. How much more would it cost than a rock excavation ?— A. If it was thoroughly bonded together, it would cost double the price of rock. ™», Q- *^hat 18 the price of limestone rock excavation ?— A. 1 do not remember what the pHces are now, but I have the prices in my office. 1 think the very high- est we have 18 $1.25 for rock excavation. It runs from 95 cents to 81.50 Q. It would cost double that to remove this stone ?— A. I think so.'if the ma- sonry was thoroughly bonded together with mortar. Q. Say about $3 for removing?— A. Yes; I say that, saiu from j'uo 8? 5^*^^ "^ the price yesterday of earth excavation ?— A. I think I «fnn5«i?^TT^'^'"P»l"®^'°/.**'* cribwork includes the price of framing and Ar^nnn. ff-^T^- ^^' ^f ^"'l «2.50. Thev are Very large crfhs. There is a gfeater amount of timber per yard in these cribs than there would be in narrow cribs A Yea ^^ **"** *^^ ^^''^^^ ^^^' ™*'*^"'*y ^*« *25 at that season of the year ?— Q. Don't you think that is a high price ?— A. Yes. *u *^* \7^'^^}^ o*^® *^ *^^ y°"^' '<^®a of tlie P"ce of driving spruce piles. What is that worth a foot ?-A. It depends upon the depth and upon how much they stand outof the water and very much upon the hardness of the ground. I think 25 cents a foot nnLTi^ItUm°^^ ^^^ *^°'^*'- '^^^ P-'*' "^"'^ purchased, I think, By Mr. Douglas: ^„, ^- These luantities go to the top of the ballast wall, they do not include the FkI^K 'i*"??-"" ^'""" f t™at« of »25 a yard you include the parapet?-A. linclude the whole thing complete for 825. 26 By Mr, Vanier: Pare?i?-'\'Tm''lf ''"^•"'■''""'^ the cibwork done agaioHt tho suggestion of Mr O m,i J ° ° '"''r^' "".'•'""•'y. Wtt8 contrary to his views. ^** * Q. D.d you recommend floating booms ?-A. He did. «. Would not the cost have been less'C-A. Loss, undoubtedly. By Mr. McLeod : By Mr. Archibald: ^HZi^Z^&T^.tX? "''°"""' '°No„mborl™.7_A. The order i. % Mr. Vanier: £y Jfr. Archibald : Q Has Se bridf S anwhinPr'.'*^ '•'•\'*r' ^^^^^^^ ^"A" ^ ^^ould think so. deal ^ anything to do with the operation of the canal ?_A. A great no. uSH-rilZrjlT '"' "^ "■'■" "'"»' "■• """"'■ "" ''"<'«• """M bridg^ir/X'X'r" ??f&;Sgr.! --I--J""— l»-A. Thi. the ctat °'* *" Buperintendent of the canal ?_A. He signed as superintendent of Q. Does not the letter appoint him overseer of the bridee SDeoiallv?— A T ««, No d^ifetittS'wS KSor' "' '"'"^' "' '"» """«'■ '• " -""-A- of.h?.?rro„^?Lrb\rdl:7iV.'?ttr,tn'r"^ ^°" w-' -•"■ »--' .1: 27 Q. Now, (loeH not that letter prove that in the dopaitmont bore that bridge was not oonmdorod to be under the udminiHtrution of the superintendent of the canal? A. — Since I have been in connection with the canal my instructions to Mr. Taront were that Mr. Kennedy, as superintendent of the canal, acted under him and was in charge of ail these works. That Ih all I can speak of. Q. Will you look at the letter of 28lh November, 1H92, from Mr. Parent to Mr. Kennedy, and way if that does not define what Mr. Kennedy's position was— exhibit P 3 ? — A. What I see is he is spoken of as superintendent. Q. Now, you Hay that Mr. Kennedy's instructions are contained in that letter of 28th November?— A. At that time. Q. Doom that letter refer to any other bridge except the Wellington bridge?—- A. 1 think not. Q. So that Mr. Kennedy's instructions related to the Wellington bridge?— A. Those instructions did. Q. Will you bo able to show me whether he bad got any other instructions ex- cept those?— A. I can tell you that I gave Mr. Parent instructions that Mr, Kennedy was in charge of all the work. Q. When did you give Mr. I'aront those instructions ?— A. I gave Mr. Parent those instructions before the work wan actually commenced on the bridge. Q. What period before?— A. 1 do not remember. Q. How did you do it?— A. By letter; you will find there a letter from me to Mr. Parent, in which I state that ho is responsible for all the work on the canal. I have not control of the letters. Q. That Mr. Parent is in control of the whoh works ?— A. That Mr. Parent has charge. Q. Is your letter to Mr. Parent of December 23rd,the one you r(;fer to?— A. Yes. Q. This is the only letter which you have written?— A. No, I think not. Q. Well, if you have written any other letter by which you have given Mr. Kennedy charge of the Grand Trunk bridge, will you kindly show it?— A. I do not think I have. But I have given Mr. Parent instructions verbally about it over and over again. Q. Have you given him any written instructions? — A. I do not remember, Q. Are you able to say that Mr. Kennedy ever received any other instructions except those contained in the letter of November 18th above referred to ?— A. I cannot speak as to what Mr, Parent may have directed Mr. Kennedy. All I can say is that on the 6th April, upon the occasion of my coming down here, when I was on the works with Mr. Kennedy, I said : " Now, Mr. Kennedy, you understand you have full charge of these works under Mr, Parent, all the works," Q. Did you specially mention the Grand Trunk works ? — A. I said all the works. Q, Now, car. you remember whether you did not, on that occasion, urge Mr, Kennedy to go and take the same charge over the Grand Trunk bridge? — A, I did not urge him to take charge of anything. I told him he had charge. Q. Did he not object?— A. He did not object, although I had hoard from Mr. Parent that he would prefer not to have anything to do with it, and I told Mr. Parent that either Mr, Kennedy had to carry out the instructions or he would have to retire from the staflf, Q. You told him then on the 6th April that he had to take charge of the Grand Trunk bridge ? — A. No, I did not. You are putting words into my mouth. Q. What did you say ?— A. I told you just now that I mentioned to Mr. Kennedy that he had charge of all the works. Q. Was there not a special question of the Grand Trunk bridge at that time ? — A. Certainly not with Mr. Kennedy. Q, Did you not at that time say that you thought that the men employed on the Grand Trunk bridge were too numerous and that they required to be looked after? — A. I did. Q. Now, are you not aware that Mr. Kennedy objected to take charge of that bridge ? — A. I am aware of just what I tell you, that on one occasion Mr. Parent Kennedy preferred not to take charge of the bridge, and I told told me that Mr. 28 • x.^- '''','®,''" Y""J,' <^o"«'<^«''al>l« uniount of work L'oin»r on tlioro. day work and niKht work ?— A. There wan, and Sunday work uIho. ^ Q. Now, in your judgment, wan there not enough work Ihoro for a man to do ? ^o*l.ri IT! m"^ *" r'l'/f '^"'''" ^'l".''" '" "" '"""•" ''i«lc»lt7 i» taking charge of the two bridgoB than of tho one, not a bit. b » 'w Q. \ou think ho ?— A. Yob, I am suro of that. «Am.SimnV 'T'T"!'"*;. li " ««""'"" Vl'lti"" of HupeHntendont of the canaUt tho same lime ^— A. And all tho winter dutiow of the c-anal Q. What \» your opinion ?— A. That Ih my opinion. » ..^^' u' ''''"'" 3'°"./P'''«'^ <« '^''•- Ivennedy ahout his taking charge of the whole work, whore were you ?— A. At the bridge. 5 b "i me wnoie Q. Which bridge?— A. At the works there. .Mr. Kemiod''*' Wellington bridge ?-A. On the workn. I went over tho works with that day^Uirme'^'^'' ^''" ^''''*' ^''' ^^""""'^y '^-^- *^'- 1'"'*"*- 1 ^hink, was there togeSe^?A"\Cl L- minavSt?"" "" '"'" ^'^^ ^^'"" ^•''^ ^""« «^ ^'''^ "«- Q. Well, what did j^ou say?— A. I did not say that. Q. Wore you three together when Mr. Puient told you that Mr. Kennedy objected to take charge of the canal ?-A. No, I do not think so »^«nneay y. Are you sure you were not together ?— A. Yes, I am sure. about ;..!;I,^M *^"* w."- ^.*'"""* ^^^ ^''^ that?-A. I cannot remombe.-, Somewhere about the bridge, at the time we were at the works. ^.■nn?' a'^vvuT^^^ *? >^'- JV"""^^'^ ^^«'« bounded upon what Mr. Paront told f ifnf M. IT ', '^".""tj^no'' that they were. My recofleotion is it was something that Mr. Kennedy said that made mo toll him that ** Q. What did he say that made you tell him that ?-A. I cannot remember, thin ?: ^^'"** '^"^ t*'" ."«ture of the remark ?-A. I do not remember. It was some- thing in oonnoction with the works. I said: "Mr. Kennedy, you must perfectlv understand that you are in full charge of the works here " periecuy of the khld''" ''*'*''*'"®^ *'*"* •** """^ ""' •" charge ?--A. No, he did not do anything K-„ ^' V^"^^ ^''^ did you say that he must understand that he was in charge?— A JJecause he was complaining about somothing-I forget what it was. in oni'ntnT^ -.u^J'^'^^ something in relation to what?-A. I suppose something in connection with the works. ^ ^^u,„^ Q. With the Grand Trunk bridge?— A. I do not remember. von hkJ.Txi"'^''J°V"^ T"'" ^"^ •"^'^ ^^''^ previous to the 6th April of which vou have spoken, Mr. Kennedy supposed himself to be in charge of the^rand Trunk bridge ,n any way ?-A. I do not Uw what Mr. Kennedy supposed: 1 only know what my instructions to Mr. Parent were. ^ ^ tu-, ^" ^?^- ''"i^? ""i knowledge whether Mr. Kennedy had any instructions exceot SrougS TlaieVt ' """ ''^^''''"'^''' ^Sth ?-A. Any instructions I gave we?e I do not\"no^" *^° "^^ '^"^^ whether Mr. Parent communicated them or not?— A. Q. Now, are you able to swear that you ever told Mr. Parent that Mr Kennedv Xthrn •""* '^'^'^f '^'•"."^ ^"'^S' '-^' ^'- ^>*«h''>*Id. 'f yo" wish to kno^ wliether I he or not, I do not lie. anuw nowtdidtar«o"''''' *" '"^ that?-A. I maintain what I lold you before, and I say Q. Now, can you say when you did so ?— A. No, I cannot say. 29 It wrtM before the wnrkH o<»mmoriceortH for this brldgu undorneutli ? A. YeH. Q. iSo that a hugo quantity of timber would be uned in that teniporaiy bridge ? —A. if it 18 the one I speak of. A structure of that kind, although it lookH to be a very expensive thing, would be dofenHiblu, because the lumber would be available afterwards for the normanent work, or should be in stock. Q. If Honio body had not can-ied it away? — A. Yes. Q, But that bridge was nocoHsary, was it not?— A. I think it was an advantage to the traffic in the streets. Q. It was not necessary for the building of the work, but to prevent delay in the traffic? — A. It would have boon hindered for a day or two. Q. Now, there was a sliding runway down in that canal ; what do you think of that? — A. I would not have carrieersonally ? — A. Well, it looks as if that is what gave rise to it. But I think that ast sentence is not a proper one. Q. It is not quite parliamentary? You know sometimes people will say a little more when they are angry than they ought to ? — A. Sometimes tney do. Q. You have stated that Mr. Desbarats is still in the employ of the depart- ment? — A. Yes. Q. He was not relieved of his ftinotions here through absolute censure of the department ? — A. The reason he was relieved from duty here was that we consider- ed the engineer was sufficient without him. Q. But then, Mr. Papineau was subsequently put in charge ? — A. Yes, he was. Q. Mr. Papineau was not here before Mr. Desbarats left ? — A. Yes, he was here, he was employed in the oUice here. Q. At any rate, Mr. Desbarats did not seem to be necessary on the work ? — A. Well, laid not think so, though 1 suppose my predecessor must have thought so. 35 'ifiges that edionco of led, or did as proKent. lioD at the not know ne?— A. I of the pay i)g for the all for the jainst Mr. ited to me w. I sup- no doubt; No, not ut n by Mr. lation and isider that 1 directed nt?— A. I nee is an nger ? — A. vhioh Mr. t?— A. Of DesbaratB ? . Kennedy hink that eay a little le depart- ire of the I consider- i, be was. B, he was he work? bought BO. Q. Well, didn't you come to the conclusion that ho was not getting on verv well ^-A. i came to the conclusion that it was not necessary to have that number or engineers. "" "■woi Q Besides there was some friction ?— A. I knew nothina of any friction had never heard a word about it up to that time. ' • ^' .^T/,?'"" ^I""? monlioned something about political reasons for the exces- sive cost of this work ? What do you mean ?--A. I can give no meaning to it. I 1 merely quoted what Mr Parent said. I have not given it as any reason myself I was asked to request Mr Kennedy and Mr. Parent to give mo an oxnlanation of thecostofthiRwork, and I gave the explanations, as they were given to me I had no idea what he meant by it. «. j. Q. By political reasons?— A. No, I had no idea. Q. Do you suppose it might refer to the manner of employing labour?— A I do not know. i ^ s> -a- j- Q. I understood from you yesterday that you considered the employment of labour by contract rather an unnecessary proceeding?— A. Well the minister does notapprovoofitvery much, and unless Mr. Parent had recommended, ho would Ti? A*''u'**^''wP"'''*^^*^"'**"''^*^'°*^- ^^"*^ *^ave not the same objection to it that he has, if properly conducted. Q. But supposing it to be true, supposing you do employ labour by contract I presume the contractor will require to obtain the labour at a cheaper rate than he furnishes it ?— A We have nothing whatever to do with that. If he can yet it for nothing, it IS nothing to ug. ^ Q. Then it will immediately become tho interest of the contractor to L'et the labour as cheaply as he can ?— A. Certainly. " Q. Do you think that would bo of any serious importance when you come to consider the necessity of the selection of men ? Would it not be the interest of the contractor to get his men as cheaply as possible, independently of their quality ?— A But It was understood perfectly there would be nothing but good men, and that Mr' Kennedy and Mr. Parent were to be the judges, and if the contractor supplied men tipon requisition that were not suitable, or if none of them were suitable. Mr Jlennody and Mr. Parent could dismiss them. Q. But don't you think that political reasons might come in there?— A I do not know anything about political reasons. Q. Now, if you are going to build for yourself, would you employ that method ? — A. No ; I do not think I would. ' Q. Do you think it is a considerable advantage to an employer of labour to have the payment of his men in bis own hands ?— A. I would not say that under all cii-cumstances but I think if they were working for myself I could control my men sufficiently. Mr. Parent's argument was that the contractor, if he got them by contract in that way, had control of these men; he kuew where to lay his hands on these men, that he generally has the best of men. That was his argument in favour of this plan. ° Q. Then when they came to work and somebody else was paying them, would not the man who had oversight of the work lose a certain portion of influence over the men when he was not paying them?— A. I should think not, and I think the very moment he found ho had no influence over them, he would sack them That 18 what I would do. A man that would not carry out my instructions I should certainly sack him, and I think Mr. Kennedy would, for he has got lots of snap , . ^- y^" observed that, 1 suppose, in the conduct of the work ?— A. Yes • I trive hira credit for that. ' ^ Q. Now what reasons did Mr. Kennedy give? Did he give you any political reasons for the excessive cost ?— A. He did not. 5 j j- v^miy^m Q. Do you remember what the reasons were ?— A. Yes ; thev were fmah "n my memory when 1 read that letter. They were precisely the same reasons as Mr i-arent gave, with that exception. Mr. Parent explained that the excessive expendi- ture 18 due to the large amount of ice which had to be cut up and carted away to the trozen condition of the excavation, to the breaking away of the coflFerdam on two 36 occasions, to the frozen condition of the cribwork and other obstructions which hud to bo removed ; and, as I understand him to say, political interference, Superin- tendont Kennedy attributes it to all the causes named by Mr. Pa.^nt exccpTthe A T?;Jl?.'^;'^®'V'i ••'*'^ causes good fair reasons for increasing the costs ?- A. They were good lair reasons for the work costing a gieater amount than it would have cost in the summer season. ^ "mouni man ii Ti..?:, ?T' "^^"f ^a™«go do you suppose would arise from the backing up of the nver into the works, as it did I think on the 20th and 2l8t ? Was it backed up when you were the.e ?-A. It was backed up on one occasion when I was there ^ of th? wa orf A I'^H^n^I''" ^"^ T '^X' '^T"^'' ^'"'^ ''««" 'J""* ^.^ the backing up ot the wato t—A. I did not see where the damage was, but I remember the men were there idle at the time owing to that. rememoei mo men Wan^V^''*^?^ '''*^!''*«'" whether that cofferdam was broken at that time?-A Well, I saw the water coming in; I saw the water was rising very high But f iam Tr?H-f """^ "P, ^?T™/^" '•'""'• "" t^^t ««'"»«*"" »"d ovfrflooid \he coffer- dam That did occur, but I do not remember on which occasion. . r, ^^r , ''"°'° t° occasion considerable extra delay ?— A. It did occa- sion delay. I remember the cribwork was stopped Q. Are you aware that some accidents occurred also in the progress of the worl<-an accident to a derrick ?-A. I heard of that as well P^^g^^^^" "^ ^he do- rirL ? A Vh?P"'!' '^''"''Ii '^?'*™^, ^?T •'^ t*^" t''"^'^'- connected with the aci neks f—A. /I he masts were destroyed, 1 think. tl.„r«^' ??k^^"t'1""'^"^/ ^^''''"c*? '^®"'°'' ^'''"g completely destroyed ?-A. Not there. I think I heard of one at St. Gabriel break ^ -^ j- < n.. i^ui fh. ^•^*?^'yo'i stated that you had given express orders against the removal of TrLtTM "".'^ br>dgo?-A. I gave two orders in connection with the Gmid ironk bridge, which were certainly disobeyed by some one Q. Abo.it what time did you give those orders?— A. One must have been ouite 'L fvn V^' '''''■^' ^ '^°"'^ '"^' ""'^ '^' '''^'' '""-^t have been towaJSItre clo^e of Q. To whom did you give those orders ?— A. Mr. Parent —A of it r ^^l** y*^*^ «^«'' ^"■Y^ any subsequent conversation with Mr. Kennedy about it? . I think not upon the first occasion, but upon the latter occasion we did speak Q. What did you say to him ?-A. I do not remember now obey?a?-A.^rthSSslitdyTdiJ."'^"'" ^"•'^^ '''' *'^* ^'^^^ ^^^ ^^"^ ^^ Q. Did he tell you then that he knew nothing about it ?— A Who ? posith;e ^°°^ ^~^' ^ *^'°^ ^" '^'^' ^^''^ '^^^'y ^' '^•d, but I would not be Q. You know nothing by -yhich Mr. Kennedy can be held responsible for a breach of these orders ?-L AH I know about it is that I gave instructSis to Mi Parent, and I know afterwards that it was torn up. It was torn uTon two Occasions*. Further examination of this witness adjourned. The commission adjourned. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 37 Montreal, 2Ut July, 1893. Afternoon Sitting. Mr. ScHaBiBER continued. £y Mr. Alwater : t i?j '7''°.^" "'"'." "'" ""■'giMl plans prennreJ ?— A. I am unable to «av Wh„n >^^^f^XtC,^Ty^'o,Z^'-''''-^- " """ ""^ '"" '»'™'^"^« -A.\eri%at;™tbii";:„iird t^^'"'"" -' '»''^« >» *» ^°p"> »f -!■» «-i ' ,ln....?otahr.Kt:tfb'eXt''ri,f.Llr'°''''''--^- ^•".' "—'- 8"«"« ,He£u.^,!,S\.:rit?or/ee;,:rxn„^»\i^e:"'trrL™rb4™S Not «« ^"e:;'^;L:Ci.tfrwrdr sr \° ?^^^^^^ Tl'at is what I understood the minister to intimate. ^ ' " Q. What did the original plans provide for ?— A. The same denth am thn nlano upon wh.cb the structure was built.' I am speaking now only fromCemory ^ '"' pape?8. ^"" ^''' '"'''""'" ^"'■^ ^"'- *'^« b"^g«« ?-A- It is amonl^t these engi?ee;^?-A" YeT°*^ '^' ^''^ "''^'"''' ^''''"'*'* '^''' P'"?'**"'^ ^"''°'"« ^"'^ ^^''^ °'"«f Q. Mr. Trudeau was chief engineer then?— A. He was. It was Mr Trudflan who^made the first report to ,he m.nister with reference to the proposed c'ost of th! .;. ?•; I S'""^ ^"^ ?''^'.'" y^"^ fi''»*^ examination, that you were under the imnres. Are yoS sur'e offh^t" '1™f ' ^''^d p-vided for the substructure of Jhe two bd JgS hrJ^fi" ^^'f*"* T} '^u'^^ r^ "^^'"^ ^^''^ '^^^^ '■^•'•^ted to the superstructure of the two bridges and not to the substructure ?-A. What I was informid was that the es iWe sent in covered the work to be done on the two bridges. estimate n WK ! m'''*'"''!"''^^"^^- .?"' 1 ^"^ J^-^t *<="'"? you what I was told, office^* ^""^ that?-A. Mr. Mothersill. He was chief clerk in Mn Page's know wL??n® "— * whoever prepared these j.lans would be the pai-ty who would know what the original estimate provided for?-A. lam not able to sav 1 can otdy repeat that the minister informed me that the estimate C a certain iure such as you have there; that he then called on Mr. Trudeau to give an estimafe of ^^.u'^'lli ^^^ .^"P**^ ^"""^ increased, and thai Mr. Trudeau wa! not able tTdo it do not know If he saw the minister, but I think not. I think that Mr. Trudeau 2fter going into the matter with Mr. Parent, said : "Mr. Parent has made an estimate and It would be an increase of 840,000." That is what the minister says y. Over the original estimate ?— A. Yes. 38 estimU?-A ' ?e«. **^'^^" ""'"' '" P'""'^*' ^*"" '^^ ''^^'"°''«' ''^P'^ «^«'- ^^o original Q. Were you conaulted with regard to that addition and its costs ?— A Nn ihnt money wan voted before I had anything to do with it ' '*^"^ original Jmnt.'"*'""'* *" '^' "^^'''"°"' *^^'^*^« ^"^^ T^^'^t ^«« ^""■"ded in the Q. I thought the original 8i)propriation was for 8175,000 ?— A. Perhaps it was Q. If .t was, ,t would not include the additional $40,000 ?-A. I HhouldThink no'" Q. You are not prepared to state whether the original estimate fb which tho T?s;yE "\f a* f'^rro^'irn- r^'^'^'j'' *^« -btrfuV^f tt. a'at I haie EKice J'^'sonally, I know nothing at all about it. but only what lOth^of Octol^ ^"S mIdS ff ^'I'r ^'""^ ^^' ?hief engineer, Mr. Trudeau, on the " W th Srr. S "'^<^'^^««e'l to the minister, in which he makes thisstatoment • Wthicferei.t. to the matter of the pronosod construction of a lartrer bridge at Wellington street, Montreal, crossing tlie l^achine canal in placo of (he existing on« in order to rcl eve the tralHc at this%oint which is far outS Sn« the ex h Kc' Cm ?h« 'n?' **""* '' S" ""^ '^', •^^P"'^ •"'"•«'«'•• «t tho\Tmoo1,eSedhH report* Fiom that phrase would you conclude that the estimate provided fSr more than the nSthingfU' '^°""^'*"" «treet?-A. You mean looking'lt that sentence ^nd seeing _ Q. No, but looking at that letter and the way he commences and then takint. " ' "so r a' th '" ''''r'' ^-^•- ^' '^•^ ^«'''^'- ^« »^« tw™b.Tdges eviSently "^ y. bo far as the superstructure is conccrnod, but is it not a fhct that in tL nsf i mate the superstructure is stated distinctly to refer to the two biSes ?-A Yes ferred'to? T ^/.l^^ I>-''^«* »''« P^timato. do you find the two bridges disUnctly re- much,&c It does not mention any bridge, but gives stone so Tnuch, comentTo that Mr^T^"^!)"^ ^' ^^f l®"^'' ^■°'" ^^® d«P"*y minister at the time, would you say bHdf s ? A Tn^ '"'•?''"" K^I"*' *^ ™P°" "" *° ^'^^ «««t of the Bubstructure of bS amtuleTiUi^Lras^r^^^^^^^^^ '"^ ^'^^'- ^ ^^'^^ '^^^ '^ -"'^ -^ be sufflcien.'''5 Q. The estimate was insufficient?— A Yes o \T^''!f"®'''®"l^''®" ^*"" ^'^^ Wellington street ?-A. The 8175 ^00 was ont t?- ^^ter deducting the cost of the superstructure ?-A. I wouUl have to Sre out tJlie quantities separately. Could not tell you ^ ® were esti^mato^fm"? ""a^'^/i ?«L'"^^*% ^^^'^^ 3^«'> *«" »>ow many cubic yards of stone rnVthZandd^L^- ^od'J not'teT.Vo'u':' ™"^'^^'^" '"^"^^- ^* '^^^ = «^«"-« W9^"A^^'i?"""^n''''^:y*'".'^^''^^*'®P''ce of stone, how much would that provide anything like the quantity of outside stone there is to thKterior -A.\.'su"ppo'sin| il^was'?!''' ""^'"'^ ''"'""*' ^^^^''''^'^ '«'• L^OSyards of stone? Q. Could you tell by calculntion from this original estimate how much the masonry would have cost, including labour and everything? I presumeThri^ v^nr calculation of the cost of masonry, you include labou?! cem^eiU, sSii^and ovei^y thfn^? Q. From this original estimate could you arrive atany conclusion as to what tl,« masonry was intended to cost ?-A. No, because labour for^everythTng was appa.Vnt! ly put in there— tearing down the old cribwork, &c ^^ Q. The original estimate only provided 833,000 for labour ?— A. Yes masonry, brt on the work ?-A. I kn?w „„,hing «bo«. Ihi, butonly mL"1\ ' 39 Q. This is tlio ostitnato on which the orif,'inal appropriation of 8175,000 was baeed, was it not ? — A. Yen, Q. I am asking you from your knowlodgo, as an engineer in charge of the de- partment, whether you can say that the originiii estimate provided for certain wovk connected with the bridges?— A. All I can wiy in that the crib wjuid have to be removed, and the estimate would have covered that. Whether it did or not, I cannot say. [ think there is a leller from Mr. Parent to me dated, I think, in Juno. 1 have not seen that here, but it might throw soma light upon the matter. By Mr. Archibald . jopy bo for May ?— A Q. I have a copy before nu> and intend calling your attontion to it later. It is dated 12lh of May ?— A. That is the letter. (Leltor filed as exhibit 66). Q. When did you receive this letter?— A. It is dated I2th May, and no doubt was received the day following. Q. Was it before or af tor'Mr. Parent's suspension ? Mr. Parent. — You told me I was suspended the day the letter was sent to Ottawa. Perhaps if you had received the letter you would not have suspended me. By Ar. Archibald : Q. You suspended Mr. Parent before getting that explanation ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you look into the accuracy of the statement made by Mr. Parent in that letter? — A. There is one thing in the letter in which I notice Mr. Parent is mis- taken. I asked him to give mo an estimate of the cost of deepening the Luchine canal to 22 feet. That had nothing whatever to do with this work at all. Mr. But- ton had a bill before Parliament, and I was requested to obtain from the engineers of all the canals an estimate of what it would cost to deepen them all 22 feet. That would apply to the whole right through to lake Krio. Q. You asked tliom to re|)oi t as to the cost ? — A. Yes. Mr. Parent. — Of course, when you put that question to rao, it Htru( k Tie it was intended by the government to deepen the canal to 22 feet, and then I pat the question whether it was at nil the intention of the government to do that, as it was necessary for us to know it in order to make up our works in such a way as to meet that, — A. All the engineers were written to at that time. Q. As a matter of fact, tho works were constructed to y^rovide for a depth of 22 feet ? — A. They were. Q. And that was not contemplated at the time the original estimate was pre- pared ? — A. No, not at the time the 8175,000 estimate was prepared, no doubt about it. I think I was not there at the lime. Q. You said in your first examination that the original plans contemplated two abutments on the Wellington street bridge and two on the Grand Trunk, and a pivot pier on the Wellington bridge. Are you quite sure tho original pl."rns provided for these works and not merely the Wellingtfm bridge alone? — A. Pernapslam wrong. It was the onlj' plan I ever saw. When I asked for the plans they were sent me. Q. You are not prepared to say the original estimate only provided for tlie Wellington bridge alone and not for the Grand Trunk at all? — A. It certainly cov- ered some part of the Grand Trunk. Q. That was the superstructure. Are you prepared to say whether it applied to any part of the substructure or the abutments of the Giand Trunk ?— A. I am not prepared to say. I do not question what Mr. Paient says with regard to the estimate as he is likely to know what it covered better than I. Q. Do you know whethe'- tho original estimate provided for any of these false works at all ? -A. I know nothing whatever beyond what you see on the face of the estimate itself. Q. In making your estimate as to what you think would have been the price for these bridges — about $250,000 I think you said?— A. I said that. I made these 40 ' 'felt r„H SF^^^^^^^ """" '"■" Q. Look at exhibit C 34 iiacA q nnH uou cou a nave eot Q. They would have risked it ?— A Y?s '"""'" '"' '"'' ""'"^ monpy. n.att2:oTglrnmeS,X''" ''*''''' P"* '" '-^- ' '^^ "«^ ^"-' ^^at is a is 5 ,?eVt;rd'e;osiras's:c:I -Jl^ '-^- ^^* ^'^^ ^'"^"^'-^ ' ^ ^^"- the usual penalty 41 O If th1\^ Pf ^f"M'er week, or what ?_A. 6 per" cent on the whole thintr the I?t of Mai 9^'^A^Th^'' "'^',"'"^' ""'^'^ ^'^^ ^"'•'^' ^^*^^^««" ^^e 8th of March and O Whn M ^f *" ««"^'«c<'^ ?-A. Mr. Delormier and St. LouIh Q S^voStinTr'"''^";''^'^'""^^-^- ^^'•- St. Louis and Mr. Delormier here ^ ' ^^"^ ™""^ ""'^ ^"'^ ^ «°"t'-««t for ?-A. The contrac ™me by thi,' oZl^!'el!IZt:'':X'r)l '''^^''' ""T "^'^ ''' '^' «^«"« ^« contemplated IhequaSaswere '""''*'"'* ««t.mate ?-A. I do not know what ouanHtiJf?"'' A^^^'^'fJ' ^- ^^' T'^ ^^y ^'^^^ these tenders were made and the rtrtL'^tijpi!"^' ''' ^"^""*'^^' ^"* ^h« -*-^t- -"t o.rto5h': Q. That is invitations to tender ? A Yes ^evn%6kl\a.TLT?-l^^^^^^ ^^'' "«t been brSge prope^'and tie Cltcl ''"''"' ^ '^"'''' ^^^ '''•' ^^« Wellington street Q. There was nothing about the Grand Trunk there ?-A. No aSd I^ZB^=^ was^wheu you h^ come t7th'e c2u3o„^o arhe^'StanVSl^b^d^;^ it to b?ild^t"ad"'Crk\Sr/e%"^^ P^^^°^ your department before. DuUge .'-A. Evidently no arrangement was made Q. Look at the following telegram : To C. SncH^iBEE, Ottawa :- Monteeal, ICth January, 1892. th„ „^® P''®'^'^ that you proceed with our canal bridge work We will render nil the assistance required and heartily co-operate in ever| way possi bie and at once. L. J. SEAEGEANT. 42 A. It inuBt linvo boon prior to tlio IGtIi of Januur^tliiit Mr. Pnrontand I viHitod Mr. Soiu'Koiint at hiH olHce, and tliiti wuh Iuh tlnal liociHion. (■i. Up to this timo, it had not boon docidod that tho j^ovornmont wore Roing to uniiortaito tho conntruction of tho (rrand Trunk bridjjo? — A. Appnrontly not. Q. When did Mr. Douglas Hrat como down horo ? — A. I Hhould think about tho 6lh or 7th ol" April. Q. IIow long woro you horo yourHolt'whon you camo down tho second timo in April 'f^A. I was horo not nioro than un liour. (i. In making your cnlculationH as to the |)rolmblo cost or tho contraotorV coHt of thiw work, did you tako into account any nocoHHary ion removal caused l»y flood- ing or anything of tho Hort? — A. I think tho only work I took into conftidoration about tho ice waa tho (luantitioH give by Mr. I'ajtinoau, Q. With regard to the number of maHouH employed to a derrick, you said ',i ?— A. Yes. (i. Do vou thitd{ that3 aHHistantH would bo enough for tho throo ? — A. I think so. (J. Under this plan of contracting tor labour, tho rosponsibilily of providing the labour is thrown on the contractor ? — A. Undoubtedly; he would have to supply it upon requisition. t^. So that tho employment of tho labour was allogolhor out of tho hand of tho government? — A. No; entirely in tho hands ot the government. Q. I moan tho employment of the particular men ? — A. Certainly. Q. With regard to the omployingor not of any particular man, the government had nothing to do or any of the government employees? — A. No; e.xcept that tho contractoi- lujd to provide suitable men tor tho work. Q. How do you account, that being the case, for Mr. Parent's statement that political interference had anything to do with the construction of tho work ? — A. I do not account for that at all. That is a matter for .Mr, Parent to explain. Q, You could not see any way in which political interference had to do with tho omploymont of the men ? — A. No. Q Political intluenco could neither employ nor dismiss a man? — A. I do not know what ho might have meant by that at all. lie can explain it. Q. Tho contract for labour having boon given, that took the omploymont of any man onliiely out of the hands of tho otHcers" of tho department? — A. All that Mr. Kennedy or Mr. Parent would have to do would bo to requisition the contractor, Mr. St. Louis, for the men thoy required, and it was tho business of Mr. St. Louis to furnish those men as required. As to who these men woro, that was immaterial so long as they were proper men for the work. Q. Mr. Deabarats, I believe, was the engineer in charge before ho left the employ of tho government ? — A. Yes; he was sent down for that purpose. Q. Do you know whether it was he who made tho original estimates ? — A. i know nothing further than seeing the documents. I only know it because Mr. Trudeau reported it. No doubt if Mr. Dosbarats says ho made it, ho ditl so. Q. Was it within your knowledge that there was any friction between any officials of tho department here and any other official with regard to this work? — A. As I mentioned yesterday, Mr. Parent complained to me about Mr. Kennedy having given orders that tho time-keepers were not to show him their books. 1 was upon the works at the time and saw Mr. Kennedy and spoke to him about it, and Mr. Kennedy said he had given no such order. Then, 1 called upon Mr. Parent, and we were together, the three of us. I said to Mr. Parent, " Kennedy dunies giving such orders; " and Mr. Parent said, " Oh it is all right, it is all right," thai he was mistaken. Q. When was that?— A. I should think either the 6th or 20th of April, could not tell which. Mr. Parent — Would you allow me to rectify that statement a little. It is not exactly what I said. I told you that Mr. Kennedy and I had since had a talk together, and ho said his book-keeper must have been a fool if he thought I had nothing to do with the hooks. He said he told him to give information to nobody, but of course he should not have considered me as nobody. — A. Possibly that may M huvo boon your lanKUUKo, but tho iiiforonco was thiit he hiui tfivon no ordera m UKiunHt your hoouik tho bnokn. * "* n«,;5'"; '\»^'*'""^-<>"i' ^^■«'-'l '•'■ "xpUnation from n... will cover tho whole, thin«r. Uwin|< to the accMdont on n (hMiick when two m«ri woro killo.1, the proHH roportom came to intorviow me and I rofUHod to ^ivo informatiot. pon.linK ll'« inqtiost. It appoarod in ono o| tho morning paporH that Mr. Kennedy would not cive any intormatioti, hut that tho tiraokeopcrH woro more communioativo. Whon I loa-l that 1 wont to them and Kavo thorn HtrictinMructionK to ^ivoinfoimathm to noh(HlyalKmt anything, hut, as Mr. I'aront wiyH, I did not considor him nobody ?_A. I know Mr Parent wuH poifectly HutiHfloil. ^ iwiow.ni. Jiy Mr. Atwater : on. S-" .V" ^«." • '*,"'!'^ whothor thoio wan any friction hotweon Mr, I)osbara(« anrl any of tho ofl ci.iIh ----A. I heard nothiuK about it. [ saw a letter hero to day and It looks iiH It there mi/^ht bo a liiilo friction. ^ P„i ^^' ^'"I'LV'y'''? i"."!"" '"'''.'•««**«•' t" Mr. Parent by Mr. DoHbanitH, dated (Jth of February^ IH >;{, and filed us exhibit C tiS ?-A. I i.over saw that boforo. (i. Mr. DcNbarals really is tho man who knows mostabout tho actual work L'ointr «Lni Ik- 1"m'" .'''''"'' /''''''■«",^--^- ''« ^""''* 1<""W moslttbout the ph.i.s, but T Hhould think Mr. Kennedy would know most about tho work „K.,.?;r ■i""'*^!"''."''' ^<;"''' ki'ow a good deal about it?-A. He Would know more about tho pli;.iH judging by the letter. By Mr. Vnnier : Q. He know also about the changes made ?— A. Ye», evidtmtly. By Mr. Atwater : iu .9i I ^hink you said in your oxamination, that your orders to Mr. Parent wore that the work must bo done as cheaply as possible, and must be done by tho openiiiir of navigation ? — A. Yes. '^ i"""h Q. Vou regarded tho fact that it must bo ' the number of extra men who would have to be employed?— A Yes Q. What was the costof the superstructure of these two bridges?— A 'in round numbers. 8b'l,000. b ■=■• ^" louou Q. Which would have to be added to tho cost of tho substructure ?— A Yes ( ,Cn """j I '®. '®".*'J* "^ ^^^ ^^^ of March from Mr. Stephenson, superintendent of the Grand Trunk, addressed to Mr. Douglas, that ho estimated the quantity of freight to be caitod from the 1st to tho 15th of March inclusive, owing to the inter- ruption of the Wellington street canal bridcro, at 14,600 tons, which at 35 cents a ton would be «5,110 or 8384 per day, and that therefore, the department would see the necessity for the construction of a temporary bridge at the earliest possible date Did that letter come under your notice?— A. No, I was not aware of that ietler. but 1 was aware that Mr. Stephenson had been in communication with some one I tt for Mr. Hent Mr. Do»g\m down in April, not in connection with theworlfs, but in connection Hpocmliy witli thalHuporHtruelure. wi-iioi.wuu ..a..v\t.i,flv"' a'"t.^''*' ^"■""'^ '^''""'' P^'^P'^w^re proHHiiiK you to put in a tempo- tfon wit^Tho~it>. ^^^ "^^^ P'^'"'"** ''*""^ ^^'^ **"'^ '^^ '^''''^'^ "''* '^"'''^ ''"""«°' Q. Did you do thut?_A. We merely shifted the old bridge over. Q. And you jrnve tho toranorary bridge for ordinary travel ?— A. No the ordi- nmy travel went over the old Wellington street bridge.' The new bridg^ w«h not built on the 8itc ot the old one. Q. The loss through stoppage of the trnfflc would have affected the Grand Trunk T,.ri «n . th *^""m"' ''"^'r u^- '' ^""''^ ^""'^ b°«" » disadvantage to the Grand Irunk and tho jmhlic, no doubt. * Q. I understand that the department has not paid a number of these accounts for material and labour yet?— A. Yes. «^i."uiiio The^arl''"^ ""^^ holding them back pending the result of the investigation ?— A. Q. What particular accounts ?-A. Accounts for material and labour both. a cubic aid°?-'A "yo ^*^" ^"'^'^" °*" •"^'""''^'* '^''«''" ^^^ masonry cost $25 Q "NVhat would it cost the contractor-^id he make money? What did he get It f — A. Iwc'lve dollars. '' Q. And it cost him 825 ?— A. Yos. Q. He must have lost money?— A. No doubt. Q Have you seen the photographs produced 'here ?-A. If these are the figures bt. Louis sent mo, I have seen them. ° Q. Have vou looked at them carefully?— A. No. Q. Could you say whether any portion of the temporary works indicated on the photograph are necessary or not ?-A. I could not tell you anything about hose photographs. It depends on the mode of carrying on the work. Had I been down there locally in charge, I would have carried them on more economicallv nnd«r votJ^hT "r/?"- "''^ "l*^^'^ ^'r^^/P^: °" '" *''« ^^"'^ ^te. Marie canal was done under very different circumstances, I think you said ?— A Yes x,«„ ?■ A'"fcPT' T "* """*''■ ^*' ^'*°'' *'^'« "'O'"'^ ''"'' ^on« i" iho worst season of the year r — A. JNo douht. r 1 ^' FT- '^ ™"" ^^ "* ™"*^^ ^'"■'^ o" *^'« account in winter as in summer ?— A. 1 Uo not think so. work^?-r N^dlfubt^'"^ ^^"^ *" ^ " ^'*"'^ ^^^^ ""^'"'^^^ '^''''^' o'^ertimeand Sunday l.nn5 Jk S® «™P'"y"}e'.if of construction works, whether public or private, do you vei oHen ** original estimates aro not very often excoeued? -A. They are Q. Especially when changes are made in the original specification ?— A. Yes. C 66?-A Yes "^°"'' ""* January, addressed to Mr. Parent, filed as exhibit was ?o b?t"e,i7eit,':?!!:r'Ye:' " "^ "''■ ' ^' '^ ^'"' '" ^■''""«*=*'«" "'^'^ ^^^ ^«"«1 Q. Those were your instructions all through ?— A. Yes Q. After competition ? — A. Yes. V. ^"rr^"'* *^*^ general rule of the department is to accept the lowest tender ?— A f\ w''® "^^y exceptions, but that is the general rule. (ij. Was there a single exception in the case of these bridges ?— A. I do not vuinlf 80, ^hnrS;til:^^1-''..f''^''°'''"^ ^'^^''? «a'-e possible as to the classes of tenders and the SatThInkfw'\rTi''°'^''''"^^T;^* ^ ""^y^^y '^'^ ^^^'^ regard to the stone that I think that Air. Delorimier could supply it. but it was nrir^A that hia prices were so low he coulu noi do so, but we thought otherwise and accepted it " y. Ihe prices contract. ^d for were not out of the way for the labour ?— A I knew nothing about the prices of labour in Montreal, as I have never had anything to 43 ho get do with any work hero. I do not know what rates woiu ..aid but wo acceot.,.! fl,« !:;:rt!^;;"s;, t;::;^r;:»' Tin:;" '-''-' '-^ -•« '- -" J-^"-' «! - 6X,,ltt.«od to mo verbally and aUo by letter hJH .oa.onH. Ho c on„i, orud it wo .1 bJ an advantage m every way to the govornn.ent. He ihr.ught i wo . d bo a Z Iv and I urn not |)iopHied to Hay he waH not correct. economy, ,«„nJ\ '*"^'"" ''?'"^' '" ^'""' e-'fperience of employing labour, whether the ,/overn. ment ban, an a rule, to pay more than a contra, tor woui.l lor lab<.ur ?-A I do no t know about that, but they get Iohb work done °' I thi?i< m.,'l" an'lo.' '"" '^'"^ "''"'" '"''■'' ""' ""* '^" ""'" *'"'" *''" K-'^O'-nmont ?-A. Q. Who propaicd the Bpecifications for the timber ?-A. Thov were nrenared before 1 had anything to do with them. "^ proj)area (i. Ah far an you and the department were concerned, all you Haw wan th« 8ynopH.H?-A. Tho abHtract in all we naw. Xo. I cannot hu- th^at up to tT.e time hoy were accepted that is ail wo naw. Mr. Connolly, of Ottawa HulLououiv to that, brought in a form of tender which he complained about ' ""'^"'^'l"*"-^'^ '<> wan Lwn^^Thftm' "I t"''" '^'^'P^'*"^^ '' ^''^ '''''''' '''' ^-^ "^^°"^'«" Q. So that you did not linow how these Hpocifications wore sent out and how far they were deficient at the time you nigned the abstract?— A. No. By Mr. Archibald : Q. When a tender of that kind, which-doee not mention each lenyth but so nuinv p.ece« from Buch a length to another, is made, would not tho tenderer Zurally"^o to the engineer'H office to get the !■ n^ths ?-A. Not necessurily. He m I t Sn wou d be a very proper thm.^ - he wanted to tender, bu the p?^ per way to send out a tender is to give j lengths. Fioper way lo Q. If the man had a head on his shoulders he would go ?— A. If I wanted to tendei- for anything of • hat kind, I would ask at the office. ^«ff?" h ?" -^ ""'r' ^''?^ y^"" consider a railway bru.ire across the canal to bo a niatter belougmgo the ora.nary administration of the canal ; doy,m romembcrwhen 1 At'ilcMne ?" "^ ^'''^^' ^"' ^"'" ""'■°"'' *^« '="""'« fe^ ye"B "go ?- Q. Yes, — A. i know it was built across there. Tf if ^'o^'*'- '»>« «'^P«'intenJent of the canal anything to do with that ?_A. I think so Jrde; U%r;Zp':n'e'd' '^ ^^^'^'""'^ ''''' ''°^'*"- "^ ''•^' ^-^g« ^ -t openedTe c^n Q. What he has charge of, is the navigation ?— A. Undoubtedly ♦u /f. ^^"^"'^ ^^. *"»Y® »»>' ^'^a'fe'e over the construction of a bridge exceot to see £K ''h f^yr*'"" '« ""t interfered with? -A. He would without dou'bt If it belonged to the government. uuuui u u T H.^" ^What instructions did you give Mr. Douglas when you sent him down ?-A I do not exactly remember. "^ uuwu ; a. n S? TT F'''® *i'^ u"^ "'"i*^" instructions ?-A. I do not see them. Q. What did you tell htm to do ?-A. He was to come down here (4. l>id you send anybody else down with him ?— A. I do not think so y. Did you see a man around here belonging to your department at Ottawa ?- sent down """^ "" ^^^' ^' "'^^ °°* ''"' ^^^° *' '^^^'"'^ ^'' J^ougC was InteSolS'iar'"''*'*''''"''^'"''^'''*'^"^' '''"'' ^' " °"'' P'^"^^ inspector on the y. iJid you give him any instruction ?— A. Verbally. Q. In writiug ?— A. I do not think so. Q. Are you sure about that ?— A. No, I am not. 46 Q. By the way, have you any reason to think that that gentleman is not quite as reliable as he might be supposed to be ? — A. No ; as police inspector on the Inter- colonial 1 have always founil him very reliable. Q. Have you ever received complaints against him ? — A. A man in that position has many complaints against him. Q. Did you ever receive any from officers of your own road against him ? — A. From one, yes, but that does not prove anything. Q. 1 see that Mr. Douglas was here in the month of March ? — A. Yes. Q. Did he report how the work was going on at the time? — A. 1 think all the correspondence is here. His special duty then was in connection with the Grand Trunk bridge which had been removed contrary to my orders. Q. Did he make you any report ? — A. I do not think he did on that occasion. Q. When you wrote your official letter, fii-st to the minister, was that the first time your attention had been called to the fact of these bridges costing more than the original estimate ? — A. It is the first intimation I had of their costing anything like what they did, although in the early part of March, as I told you yesterday, an article appeared in the Montreal Gazette stating that there were 1,300 odd men upon the work. That same day that I saw the paper, a person came to me and stated things were being done there extravagantly. I then wrote on the tenth of March to Mr. Parent drawing his attention to what had appeared in this paper, stating that it was reported there was great extravagance and a great many more men employed than could be profitably worked. That these men must be in one another's way retarding work. By Mr. Atwater : Q. Who made that statement ? — A. \ cannot say that. By Mr. Archibald : Q. Did you say anything about the wood of the old crlbwork ? — A. Yes. Q. What did you say ? — A. I said, and I repeat now, that although what had been taken out of the crib were valueless and only fit to be destroyed, we could give no property away even if it were of no value but it had to be sold by auction. Q. That was an indication that any one might take French leave and carry it off. — A. I certainly did not intend it in that way. But it certainly was of no further service. Q. Did Mr. Parent ask for authority to sell that stuff by auction ? — A. I know that the selling of it was spoken of. Possibly he might have done so. Very likely he did. It was spoken of certainly. Q. What did you say when he asked for that authority, if he did ask for it? — Do you remember giving him authority ? — ^A. I do not remember giving him authority, although I think it would have been a very good thing to sell it by auc- tion, because it was only encumbering the ground. Q. Was it not necessary to have it removed? — A. Some of it. Q. Do you think it could have brought enough to cover the expenses of the auction ? — A. Only a small amount, but the theory is that we are not allowed to dispose of public property, even if it has no value. It would have brought probably more than enough to cover expenses. Q. Is that the theory, even if it should cost something to get rid of it? — A. Yes. ■Q. Do you find in your experience of public works, especially in a crowded neighbourhood, that it is the theory which prevails among tne neighbours ? — (No answer). By Mr. Atwater : Q. In your letter of the 21st of April, addressed to the minister, in which you first expressed to him that you were astonished at the size of these pay rolls and the cost, you questioned the estimate made by Mr. Trudeau, chief engineer, and by Mr. 47 Parent, superintending engineer, early in 1892. Then you go on to state what Mr i'arentfi explanation of this excess over the first estimate was. You did not make any statement as to whether that estimate provided for both bridges or only one?— A. I understood at the time it covered both. I knew nothing personally about the estimate, because it was made before 1 had any connection with the canal. Q. Of course that letter might have been varied according as yon found the original estimate provided for more or less than you thought at the time?— A I might have modified it bo far as the value of the work was concerned, as I think that was too low an estimate altogether. It was not sufficient to cover the work done no doubt. ' (Exhibit C 67 filed, being copy of a report by Mr. Trudeau to the Minister of Railways and Canals, dated 19th of October, 1892, and the estimate for Wellineton street bridge, dated 18th of October, 1892, and signed by Mr. Parent.lbeinii the ori- ginal estimate for the Wellington street bridge.) By Mr. Emard : Q. If I understood well, you do not expect a man to work at night as well as in days ? — A. In some cases we pay more at night than during the day. Q. What percentage ?— A. I should think from 33 to 50. Q. Would the pay be more per hour from seven to twelve at night than from seven at night to six in the morning?— A. It would be about the same per hour. Q. Would you expect men in such weather and temperature as we had last winter, to be able to work all day long in the water without having to come in and warm themselves at times ?— A. The men wear waterproof boots, but it is quite possible they would have to come in and out to get warmed up occasionally. Q. Could they work five hours at a stretch ?— A. Quite likely they would have to come in and get warm. Q. Can the men be watched at night as well as in daytime ?— A. Scattered men could not be looked after as well. Q. In cutting the stone of the Grand Trunk abutments, are j'ou aware that the stones of the old wall were cut on each side after the building?— A. You mean that the backing was cut in the same way as the face stone. It was not, and it was very improper if it was. "^ Q. It was done for the railway bridge, but not for the Curran bridire ?— A. Not for any of the bridges. Q. Was it not supposed to be more required for the railway bridge?— A. No they were both good strong masonry. ' ' Q. You are not aware that orders were given to do it by the engineer ?— A I know nothing about it. Mr. Parent or Mr. Kennedy would give the order. I never heard of backing being cut the same as they cut stone. Q. You do not believe that the back range of atone should be just as strong as the first row. A. Just as strong, but not cut the same as the front stone. Q. You think it is not necessary at all to work the stone of the backing ?— A ' !^^x? ^^ "° occasion to cut that, but simply to knock it in shape with a hammer Q. Not to pick it in any way ?— A. You must have the stone ingood shape. Q. You do not think it was required for the railway bridge to make the abut- ments stronger ? — A, No. By Mr. St. Louis ; Q. Is it not a fact that if you have got a course of two feet in front for regular courses, and if you have got backing of about 8, 9, or 10 inches in regular courses you have to pick those so as to give the same strength in the back of the abutment as in the front ? — A. You may build up the back courses in two. ^u S' Certainly, but the beds h.ave to be put so as to bring as close the stone in the back as m the front ?— A. Yes, you have to pick the stone, but that is not cutting. *- u^V 1° °°' ^"^ °"' *^® *^^°® ** *° ^"*"*' ''"* ^ ™*'^® * Sood abutment, the bed at the backing has to be picked close because there is some times two joins to meet oneinfront?— A. Thatisright. 48 ■ ? By the Chairman ; A T?'rifui V"® ?u* ^^^^ *!' ^H specifications require an inch joint in the back ?- A. In most cases they require that, but I never saw it carried out. By Mr. Emard; of „i?" i^^^y*^"^,?^"''® that this stone was picked afterwards ?-A. I am not aware o hi l^n ""^^ "^T ""''^ ''■ ^ ^? "°^ "^"^^ ^^y »t ^l^o-^'d be different fronTth other masonry. No one can complain of any of it, because it is all excellent work. By Mr. St. Louis : ' Q. In quick work like that, is it not necessary to have a certain number of men „i.3 "^^ '".™ ""^ ''""'''"K """"y «o meet the lequlrements of the front of the Dd'r s^rg?;?. '° ■""""' "'° "•""'''* •' "■» "■"« «■»» '-A- 1"" "-""I .k ^; Perhaps you are not aware that Mr. Papineau gave orders to pick the face of G;an%7uikbridt%''r'T"^'* '/•'"» °" eaii side^of the n JZtmentfrthe trrand 1j unk bridge ?— A. I am not aware what instructions Mr. Papineau eave and 'tii^.ir^^it' *° -^""""'J' °f *«•• " ™ ." .*»|h .Wu™P7 ^y Jfr. Emard : rr.r.r.?' ^!-'' 1"^* thc CBso that for a railway bridge for heavy traffic, you have to be more particular m buildmg the masonry than ordinary tiiffio bus ness ?-.A Yes than ordinary country and highway bridges. « uumnessr a. xes, By the Chairman : Q. Is Mr. Skefflngton still an officer of the government ?— A. Yes he is insnAo tor of police on the Intercolonial. ■«■. les, neis inspec- Q. How long have you known him?— A. I think since 1876. .fflci?,itrd'd:xKr° •" "" "'■'"""" '-^- ' ""'^ "-y^ fo«„d hi,. . „o.t Q. You have a very high opinion of him personally ?— A, I have. By Mr. Douglas . officer Q. With regard to Skeffington, anv work he did here was done as a nabliP er paid by the public and in the public interest ?--A. Yes ^ By the Chairman : onffi.?H„ ^7 statement of the masonry, you included the estimate for false work cofferdam, and anything else required ?— A. No. I had an item in for all ft„T ' amount in addition to these prices. *" *'^"*' *" By Mr. Atwater : ■ Q. What amount?— A. I do not remember, waa LK'r.Wntll&ZeZl'' ^^ '" """ ^°" "«■""'» ''■'■■ *"« "»k ereafed^'et^'Z^-l'lVt?" """ '"" ■'»°«»"-J'. you,- eaUtaates «uld be in. Q. Those false works cost a lot of money ?— A. No doubt Q. A great deal of labour went into those and material?— A All tho .,,»* • i used in them should be on the ground. _ """ maienai r— A. All the material 49 Q. Apart from its having disappeared through its being plundered, a larce amount of material must have gone in ?— A. According to those figures, yes. By the Chairman : , Q. Was there any record kept of the state of weather during the construction ? — A, I do not know. I know it was very cold weather. Q, Would you consider -it extravagant to lift that ice with derricks out of the water and put it in carts and cart it awav?— A. I think if yoa lifted it in blocks with the derricks and took it away, it would have been cheaper than cuttintr it up and shovelling it up. I do not know what was done, but I should think cartino- it out on the ice out of the way would be a very good plan. " And further deponent saith not. E. J. DcaaAN, Stenographer. The commission adjourned at 5 p.m. Mr. E. H. Parent, C.B., was then called and sworn :— lit/ Mr. Douglas : . Q- J^ - ' know anything about the bill of timber on which lumbermen were invited ..y|.?_A. Yes. Q. Dia you furnish the bill of timber to Mr. Kennedy ?— A. No Q. You did not furnish it to Mr. Kennedy ?— A. There was one furnished bv my assistant and the timber was purchased by Mr. Kennedy on that list—at least a portion of -it. Q. Mr. Kennedy was given a listof the timber byyour assistant, Mr. Dasbarats?- A. les. ^' mi** ^^/ ^^sbarats forward that list to your office?— A. I saw it at bis office Q. Then Mr. Kennedy sent thelelterstothediflferentlumbor merchants?— A Yes Q. Did you give instructions to Mr. Kennedy to send out the tenders?— A No * he did It himself. The fact of sending a list almost meant instructions. ' Q. Did Mr. Kennedy forward you a copy of that letter which he sent to the various lumbermen ? — A. Yes ; we received a copy. Mr, Lksaoe then returned and was re-ezamined. Q. Did you get instructions from Ottawa to ask for tenders ?— A. Yes. Q. Did Parent instruct Mr. Kennedy to ask for tenders ?— Q. Yes in his letter of the 28th November. (Witness read letter.) ' Q. Produce your authority from Ottawa for writing that letter?— A. Mr. Parent could give you some information. Q. Produce the document.— A. This letter was based on a conversation. Q. Is it customary to allbw Mr. Kennedy to invite tenders for large amounts of material irrespective of this office, make up tenders in his own office, and send the extended tenders up here. Is that the customary way of doing business ? A. No sir. Q. You do not know anything about asking for these tenders other than saying that he was authorized to call for tenders?— A. Mr. Parent will be able to toll you more about it. "^ •Q. Had you authority fi-om Ottawa for that letter ? Mr. Parent.— There "is authority from Mr. Trudeau given to Mr. Desbarats That is the only one, the rest was a verbal arrangement in Ottawa. Q. Where was this verbal arrangement made ?— A. In Mr. Trudeau's office at Ottawa, in the presence of Messrs. J. J. Currau and Ogilvie. ' 4 50 mnnt?" o^^/k" '" ^^^A ^"^l'* P^ i^o'ng to Ottawa on these matters ?-A. I wont every O' VVh f^nrf*^ '%^^r the office when Mr. Cunan came in with Mr.OgS Q. What took place ?— A. After conversing on different thines in connection w>th the bridge, thej asked that Mr. Kennedy be appointed over3 o? the works They insisted upon that point. I replied, that in hi' quality of supeWntendent he was naturally the overseer .i" the works, that there need bo no s^ecii UpDlicution t".'^"X^rr'- ^^""^ '' Y^ '' "'^""^ "''°"*- *1'-- Trudeau saidTo rSer'' etK ed^ know that hem appointed overseer." Then, Mr. Dosbarats got a etter from S theioTrm^anently? ^'" '' '"«. Wanting him acting enginoi of the worksTo be Q. You received no written instructions at all ? And further deponent s-aith not. E. J. DoGGAN, Stenographer. E. H. Pabent, civil engineer, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows :— By Mr. Atwater : Q. With rofarenco to this pay-list that we wore asking Mr. Lesage about when did^.t roach you first ?_A. It was about the end of May or the com^menc^ment of ofR A wa"^"" "''^'^*W '" ■''*'"'■ hands ?-A. No. The moment it came to our ?h^ ?mT^'^^V»K^i!\^'""^V'lS®'^''l'"«P°'^^^ I signed them up ti the 1.3th May, and the balance of the time they were signed by fir. Marceau who s acting superintending engineer just now. /believe it was not in our hands'.roro than a couple of days at the outside. ® . By Mr. Archibald : Q, But not signed by Mr. Kennedy ?-A. Yes, Mr. Kennedy had signed it when By Mr. Atwater : ♦ '^;-7°"..^** T°} ^^^"^ "^h®" '* ^*"* to M"'- Kennedy ?— A. I cannot tell I wan^ nZ ln?h"'/ ^a'^'VT '^'^- ^■'^}^ ^ ''^"''^ "P to the 13th. I made amistTe.' In the month of April it was entirely under my control, and so I signed for the whole month of April. I was first thinking of the month of May. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. By Mr. Douglas : ways^^nd'cZls'S^Yes."''*^ ^"' ^""^^''' '°«'°'''" "^'^^ J^eP«'-t>»ent of JJaii- r.,.^: Had you any official instructions from the Department of Eail ways and Canals or from Mr Scbreiber, that Mr. Douglas had any official connection wS the wor^ on the bridges ?-A. With the iron structure of the bridges fin!-?V wi, .*''"*°®u"°" ^.^^ ^o^- -l^ougia^ with the bridges from the start to the finish? What was his position ?~A. As assistant toMr. Sohreiber: of course we had considerable intercourse together. ' ^°""«> ^e ♦« fi^; i?^°u"j^u* ^""g"'**'* "f'ived here in the end of April to remain— previously liJJnBtructui^'"" ''"' ''"'•'*' "°^''-^"'' '''>•'* P"rp?Be did he come?-rS 61 Q. Where did he go ?_A. To Lachine to inspect the iron woric. Q. Did ho go on the works with vou '/—A. Yos Q. Was it at your invitation?— A'. No. Q. Had he any oflScial capacity ?— A. No Q. None whatever?— A. Not at that time wa. ^otSfl'','.'™'' '"^ °""'"' """"""^ '"> '"" knowledge !_A. Uo, beoa«,o I —A. With no i-eBponsibility at all as regards the work Q. Are you aware that on the 25th of April, Mr. Schroiber wrote to Mr mation he could and report to me the position of matters." Are vou aware hat Mr. Schre.ber wrote to Mr Haggart on the 25.h of April that letter f-A No Q. You have no official knowledgeof that ?— A. No ^ ' a. rno. Q. Have you any official knowledge that on the '>'\th nf Ar>rii at.. t» i Q. Are you aware that Mr. Douglas also wrote in that letter to Mr Sr.hreiber- "As to macadam, Mr. Paront or Mr. know nothino- uhLtu '^X^^^'^^^ • T Mr. Kennedy's answer. I may be able later to dSve? the^tu°e nward^^s^^ Lou,« informs me that he paid on Saturday last «19,«00, and to-day w"h pay 8 U 943 ?h« wn^k^-'^v'"'"'''^^ .n the department, down t.; Friday last wLn yJu^nspe^^^^^^^^ the works." You never heard anything of these letters ?-A. No "'^pected Q. He had nothing to do with it ? By Mr. Emardi -A. No; except to inspect and report. Q. Huve you that letter ?— A. The letter said that Mr. Douglas had hfi«n in Montreal to inspect and in the meantime am waiting anxiouJlJlrMr.tougK Q. Have you a copy of that letter ?— A. Yes ^uihn^iFlT" ^^°^Y^ '*• '^o« say you were never informed that Mr. Douelas /as bJfdg'ey-A f :m°not'"'"P^ *^'"''^' ''''^ *'^ "^''^ '' '^« ""'^^^ etractn^e of the ocou%l\lL::niiZ^:^ifll T^mf peSrknTfed*^ t "°'^« «"^ o^Jhenwe met, he cast re^^^^^^^fJ^T^^^J^^ I continually not 62 &1'E ^^^'l-^'-.^^^g'^^. "'"t have been away from Mr. Douglf on the work. c„„,i„i^?;;-"h:r9.i;r2rh a7AT IT r.^ (he work.." So thatSdoe. ^i 3,!f .T'° '"' '*°° ''°"" «» Mo""e.l to vi,it authorized, and has he ilot given instncti^ons or o^TdoJ, ^^^.T^J'' f "^ "' ,"*''« ;X t'ufr •"°"" "'° "'- -'-^»°^^ -P»?on\lth^ Q. Did any foreman tell you ? A I eannof t«]l xr^.. ^k^ * several people. *®" y**" ^^° '^ ^^as. It was Q. bid you hear Mr. Trudel's evidence?— A Yes Q. Did you hear him say he got orders from Mr. 'Douglas ?— A I did Q You are not prepared to say he did not tell the truth ?-A No Fvpn iP Mr. Douglas gave orders, he bein^ assistant chief engineer makeTitaU ri.lV i would have done the same thing if 1 had been there. ^ ^®'^' ""^^^"^ '^ *" "S**'- I By Mr. Atwater : you.^" ^''' ''^*^ ^""^ '^°"* Mr. Douglas having given orders ?-A. I cannot tell Perh^psTt^asVTlfneut^'''-^- ''^^ '' ""'' P«°P'« —^^^^ -^h the work. not interfere otherwise than conversatioZly. " ^^"'S^' ''"' <^'^ And further deponent saith not. E. J. DnoQAN, Stenographer. 53 The commission met at 10 a.m. Present : Messra. MoLeod and Douglas. Montreal, July 22nd, 1893. Mi-. Parknt.— I wish to make a statement. Mr' p.T'"'^- v^^^r**''® ^''•^'"fe' this under oath, are you ? ^l' P^T'"''-':^^^''' '' ^^^''^ ^'- «<''^''«'ber said yestfrSay " Mr AR0H.B';7n tLT^'P^P''' gave quite a different report. mean'^t'liarran"-''''- '"''"'''''' «^^^«"-' ^ ^P^'^^^ '" ^^^ PaP-, does not Mr. McLE0D._It is all right; we understand all about it now last a^ny tonSrabVtTifr*""''"^'^"'"-" •'^*"^"' ^^^ «"^ Mr.Coughlin did not K-n^H ^t"*'',^-"/^^' ""l ^^® moment he refused me, I walked out I met Mr Kennedy shortly afterwards, and he explained the whole thing " A copy of the pay-lJHt of the time worked when the dredife was workinir at th« Wellington bridge fast fall in November, is filed as supplemenfary ?o exhTbit C 31 E. H. Parent, previously sworn, reoalled. Whi f r® P'-ePfed a statement which I would like to make before the commission dal Th^wL'thTfi?. f'/ rPr'^' '^•^'•\^"« "'''^ * Pl«" ^«'- a tunnelunder the i-anai. loat was the iirst ntart r»;ar.nuf..Vn Hon-ni i- .-. .or,« . , ^. '""«* "•" eignt teet w.de, and that one portion should be done by days' work, and another by 04 Tf J«TfA K " K*''^""' "^^^ *'?'"* *°' *''®" t^«y ^ent to work to study a plan Mr Tr .H ^ "" T*? ^n'^^u*' ""^ ^'i* ^^'^^'^ Trunkbridge also. By " they " I £ean Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Denbarats-I could not tell exactly who it was in OUawa Th« pkns were commenced for the masonry, but there was^ not a S deS XlaniS^ about the masonry. Ther^ was not a great quantity of stone ; there was no ?aSbf Uon at all-very small plan When the question o^f abutments camrupJheSs were made .n the office at Montreal. The plans for the abutments and also for the centre p.er. were prepared by Mr. Desbarats in the office here. By Mr, McLeod : tJ,« %J^^ ^'^^ plans ?-A. The first plans for the abutments. The first plans for tUZ 7^'^ co-^menced .n Ottawa, and sent down here, that is wC they mSwe^emad: &'" ^^'" ""' °^ "'"^'"^"^^- ^^^" the plans for the abuT befortoTttber7892''"Tha7\-sP'Z'f T ^^ '""^^^-A. It was made some time they changed ever' thing "^ commenced working. Then By Mr, Douglas: Q. That was in Ottawa ? — A. Yes. The verv dnv T -aronf tr. r\n^„ t u i By Mr. McLeod: Q. The fii'st plan of the pier was made by Mr. Desbarats ?— A Yes under thA supervision of Mr. Trudeau. As regards the superstructme, there was so ittle substituted, that it was not much worth while. Q. The superstructure or the stone structure ?-A. Under the structure was ?rSZP''''"-.V^' '■".'"""'"^ ofthecribwork. AlUhe plL we o sent to me I fold r^'nT'^ an estimate of the cost of the wo.k. on the 29th OctoK, IsSi! small l-ronnn^^iT*'""^^ the plan«, but I found that the estimates were too rmniete?v aU^S fhn ^f'«'J'«*'"ff^,{. J'lu you see them in Mr. DesbiiratH's rnnm 9 a v„ . , Ottawa, about once a month, I woS have an i"S, Ji^t' f^'i^^'V ^i"'® ^ ^«°^ ^° DesbaratswastomakesomodrawingforMi-Lrcu Smith ^««'>'^'-a'«- -^'•■ -By Jfr. Douglas : Marct Sm1th^'™'"°" ^''^^^ Company ?-A. The superstructure was made by By Mr. Vanier : Q. There was a specification of the superstructure ?-A Yes below the bottom ; ,o tha^t C U.M ne«," hav, IS „t„r,r"H",°' '° «° "»"" way. We worn tn fnir« «k„ ™ * . r °**^'^, '^^Q to touch the abutments in anv sub^ianS Sdal amund the i"rs "th nTa?' '^'^ ^.''''^t'' ""'^ ™^'<« « g«"d removed, «nd then ^ut the water C ijjo the o^n^^ '^ ""''^r'^ '^"^ ^^^ *« ^^ sufficient for all that%nd even less U^^^^^^ "«""'\.;^ "^onth would have been in and build the pie^ " ^'"^^'^ *''"'<' conditions we could let the water them to in their orders that^'heyLrio metl '"'^ **"'' *" '^^^^ '"'''' '^ '^^'>^^ you.- Vom^ Jd'atbS'&Tef k' wasT^ 1" •'? '""/^ ^'^'^^ P'«^ ^-« '^S-'-t would be preferable to that pUin. because th;rboRnmw ^''f \^"?^ strongroom or five yiars previot at Ihtsame "pUc^ rth t%te%"e1iin.To'„'ttr^'^< always answered the purpose very well. *vemngtoi) bridge, and they 87 By Mr. McLeod ; largo%?nUty.'"'"''* "°' ^"""^ ^'*" '^ large quantity of piling put in?-A. Yes, a By Mr. Vanier : l„Kn.?r'9^V°M"'°^'"''®/.*u'"* telegram you sent to Mr. Schreiber about skilled labour ? Would you read that telegram ?— A. ■"^•••cu •'To COLLINQWOOD SOHREIBEB, " Deputy Minister, and Chief Engineer of Railways and Canals " Ottawa. "Montreal, 18th March, 1893. " Considering the risks for contractor for strikes, and the average of wnces all iuppoSd toT." ""' ''"'''*'"■ ^'-^^ '"' ^'^'' ''''' '''''''' '"«"' «"°^ «« ^' sup^Sare Q. In answer to your telegram was not this telegram addressed to you ? " To E. H. Parent. " Montreal. nio Jr??*nf '^J'i' '■"^^ ^?'',°°'"o'"°^, 'a'^ourers in Montreal, such as shovellersand pickers? If not, how much less ? Please reply to-night. " C. SCHREIBER." „n««S; )I7U ^«! T^'P'"'" ^^«tyr "^ean by that answer ?_A. I meant by that fn TiL. ♦ 1 ■• ^A ^"»'« '""'.""gthe risk. 81.50 was not u high rate for labour here betweeSS fines '"^ A telegram is always shoFt, and you must road nnf f?" f ^"^ '^''^Tu" ""i"" ^l " '''l*''"® ™^" " ?-A. Choice men must be nicked men. not the first man that offers himself. He must be known to the contractor as a first- class labourer, as these were supposed to be. Q. As a matter of fact did you have choice men on the works?— A. I would ^ ^Zru\^^ ^^ '''^y. ^'"!;^' ^ ^'^'"'^ ^"""^ "''PPed *" who were not first-class. v«..^T*K^ .Py;'l'u''*'°" ^~^- ^ '^'^ "<"* "*'« *o ^ay «« ^''ose as that. But you see very well that all the men were not first-class. Q. Was one-half good men?— A. Oh, yes, more than that. y. Three-fourths?- A. I would say more than i ,at. I would say that about 5 per cent or 6 percent wore not good men. Some wore discharged on account of their not being good men. Q. Was the picking of the revetment wall between the two bridges taken into account m the estimates ?-A. No, that was not contemplated, because it was only I*^f " «^? afterwards that there were projections in the wall, and it could not be allowed to stand. Q. Was the cost of getting out contractors' plant, such as derrick, included in the original estimate ?— A. No, there was no plant exceptfor the Wellington bridge There was nothing of the sort for the Grand f runk bridge. Then it turned out that there was nearly as much to do as on the other except in the amount of masonry wnicn was less. •" Q- But the superstructure of the Grand Trunk bridge was included in the first estimate (—A. Yes, all the iron work, of course, but not what has been done to the masonry. Two courses have been taken off, and those two courses necessitated a consider^be amount of what you might call false works, as much as for ten courses, o ^ ?L' " rll"^' "'' tuo derricks?— A. Putting up the derricks, and access to them, and the platform and everything— the false work is the same for ten courses as for iwo, jt does not make much difference. I consider it was the same thing for two courses as for ten, but of course the masonry is not the same. n 08 Ottai?-kX"S.Zu.ret''^ "PP^'"^^'^ ^'^ ^''"* ^♦^-^ '^^ »»>« department in know what ,.o answer means. ^"P®""*'"'^®''* ^^ *ho WclIinKton bridge ? I want to m'- licmLl^iZ TpSl^rit':^' '1 ""'T'' "^ ^''° ^^«"'"«'«" bridge, only. ^"^ "P"^'*' aPI'^ntment refers to the WellinKton bridge would have been to.d "You w!liTavelit;e'rth'tho^\L;^'' "" '''•• ''^""^'^^ fiy Mr. Archibald : was Itnlyre'lSV^ThTSu;::-? r ^'"^«" ^"« 'P'^'^'^y '"on'tio ..i?_A. It Company at their own exjer^e SlhuT'V''" P"' '" ^^'^'^ ^'^•""'''"' bridge would have been Home litX I'ngs t^c o t^t "In • "'^ '""' '''"f" "' ^'''- ^he^ done. ^^ ^ ""' ^"' no'li'ng compared to what haw been By Mr. Vanier : Uonl n^onnZljd'wT/ttvll^i make^'r^'^^'^' ^«P^^"'' appointment ?>A. those works and tL ^4™'! L'^t/""''^ '' '^^P'^'"*^'^ '^^ "^«'«««'- «f O g'';,;^«g°^«'-nf"«^nt consult you about' it ?-A. Oh, no direoVunder^or ol'rs from '■• ''^""^^^ 1" Buperint'endent of the canal, is Bupnosld to S;si,°"unle ' n^a'^as" li^: £ "Vt'den'^^d' ^° *'?, ^^i^^'''-^- ^e" He Uing specially appointed jroverseerTmiiK.Pf" -P"? '^''*' interpretation, they did^n/t wanf mE'^o take The rspo^'siliK'^' ''""'"'' '° ^'^^^ «"«« '' '««^« «*« ^^ sideriii fhlChrd^r;g: oTgeiktup^^^^^^^^ «?- -^-*- ^ -- see more to the execution ofihe nlanTn-onZl ^ i^* the works, and that I would minated by the first of May. m 3 cJnsSZ^S^^^ the work. We would work toZh«?. k„1h^- k ^ ? ""x*" ''^'^ ''^ '^a« Koing to do O Vmf HfH'''''''.^,r'' *•?* ''^y *^« ^«« appointed ?_A. Yes. Q. You did not hke to interfere ?-A. Fdid not like io interfere much. £y Mr. Douglas ; -''y'^n,:!Zli'Z'l\ZlLJ'^JAlT^:-'''"f "•"•' ?•>« "•• *e object 59 Mr. Atwater.— They are not politicianH. Yoii don't cull Mr. Ogilvio a politi- clan, rlo you, a miin with Hueh a largo Mtalo ami intoiest in the canal? .Surely ho can have Homething to my about that work 7 Mr. Vaniir.— If they are big enou^^h men to take the responsibility on tli.Mr own shouldoi-s, let thorn do 80, and lot the public have a chance to see what they have done. Mr. MoLkod.— Von can get it out in croHH-examiiiation. Mr. Vanier.— Were you afraid to interfere? Air. Parknt.— Well, I did not like to interfere. Q. 1 wiKh you would give a full explanation ?— A. I had no reason to bo afraid to interfere. Why should I bo afraid to interfere ? If my interference had brought on some discreditable conversation I would have reported the thing to Ottawa. Q. Did you not understand after that had happened that the dopaitmont.or the Minister of Railways and Canals, want" ' in take the responsibility of that nomination, and what would ensno?— A. I did .•.■.( wol understand the purport. Mr. Atwater.— I cannot see what bwat-ng this question has upon the inquiry. Of course, any nomination that is m;.(l., the >.. partment must surely be responsible for, to a certain extent. What is J»o r.«!e ')f «« dng Mr. Parent what he understands? It confuses Mr. Parent and puts hlr. in a ^Ise pasition, and does no good to the inquiry. M.r. D0U01.A8.— Mr. Parent as a suspended official, has a right to give explana- tions in his defence. Mr. Va.nier.— Had 3'ou not official notiHcation of this special apn(»intment of Mr. Kennedy from the Department of Railways and Canals?— A. Not from the department. It was verbal. Q. Who told you about it?— Mr. Trudeau. Q. Did he make any remarks at the time ?— A. I believe Mr. Kennedy was there himself at the time. Q. Did Mr. Trudeau tell you anything about it? Did he make any remarks?— A. Not the same day, but afterwards I did ask Sir. Trudeau himself what was the «r®ii •^u^'*^^ ^°'''^* ' ^^^^' "Would not his position be that of a contractor ?" " Well," he said, " yes, you can take that view of it. Mr. Kennedy would be like a contractor," or something to tha* effect. Then I went off. By Mr. Douglas : Q. To look over the work the same as a contractor would look over his own '^O''^?— A. T(/ take the same interest a contractor would take in his own work. That is what I told Mr. Kennedy afterwards in ray office here. Mr. Kennedy came and said, '« What is the relative position of both of us ? " " Well," I said, " I think you should consider yourself as a contractor, and get the works executed under you as if you were the contractor." By Mr. McLeod : Q. About what time was that ?— A. Some time in October, if I remember well. ^ Q. When was this conversation with Mr. Trudeau ?— A. I think it was late in October. The commission adjourned till 2 o'clock. S, A, Abbott, Stenographer. 60 ill I; Montreal, 25th July, 1893. Afternoon Sitting. Mr. Paeent's examination continued. By Mr. Vanier : cases of that wrt. Bat it may have b«i„ th.M, kT^', i' ° ,'"'" ' "^ wosoUed in K^tei™"'"'-^-^- -"'"^^-^Trhrhet-s :iri:;i r'^i mil, ^w^t^tS: i'lSn°t°„?j£ /il t T:r,\''"''i'fS" "--"'« •<> >>0"e«' o„. iw.bat I do not remember anv caee wh.™ . '?"'?'J"°P'««'«"<»">pl«iii planied of 1,. There ha™ been Tumo^K abTt ?t bSn ' ■' '"""'' """""Iv.. oom- not happen where I was. ""••'«■« aoout it, but it le only rumoure, and it did lo-valriie TZ'Lm rni"Zr,t """ 'r ""."«" ■""" "y Mr. Kennedy <"">»'« ?-A. Not aware of that ^ "" ■=»""' "> ""> detrimenfof othermifl thedT>rSil^Tr.r.rA'rm'a1tve\^"°?K' "^O^"™'' """ ««P«w')' .0 notright. Id„„„tk„ow the eircYmstanee. Th.!"""' I-" ' «■""<•« ««y'twM *' wS dor?^? If »^'l»ot, bat a little bit o7 there was nothing definite and we wore ion h?,L u Vfu ^"^ .^®* "■"'«« about it, but l.ttle detailH. Bui, I do not i^ow Zlt tZtZLl^Zi ''^'l'''"" 'l^''^'' ^"^ those I know. I do not know anything defini e abourit T t ^* T^ ^^ «" ''S^^ ^ov all and dumped stone and concrete fnd that T wa„ tn.H IT '''"^ ^"^^« ^«°t there but had no time. ' ""** ^ "^"^ ^o'^^- ^^d I wanted to go and see it, By the Chairman : '^y^o^lZZ!!i.:^7,^^TCT """ '»" "-'-^- I """» by bear- 61 ly, 1893. •enefit a few consulted in 't my being nal without but I heard benefit one ■e compiain- seives com- 1, and it did r. Kennedy other mill pecially to say it was ^y say, and I taken out ade a cora- ls only he rder it. I the water fi-^gilvie ^hen it e of doing to benefit >n a piece 1 not pav ttle bit of ad (0 Mr. ut it, but ■ilh those ht for all mt there id see it, by hear Q. You do not know of your own knowledge?— A No how?.- w» a'n'jrwtus^td"'' '»» '■'»' '""^ "'-''''' ^^ 'P'-^i Q. l)o you know with what stone it was macadamized ? —A Tho^ .^;a u s^'^"aj°"up^jfrd:,r "'°''' °" *' «'"'-™"°"' or je^^zs T H«?: ,^' '""^'i,'^® » "jce macadamized road, but who did it you do not know ?_A orders to thir ekT''^ ^!"°^ T ^ ^'^ "^^'^^^S ^« ^^ ^^^^ *' Neve, grvl^^' ?he bank of the canal a m,?„'Tr }^° f P^^'ntendent may do this. Sometimes oJ an oiXt tl S! rui • ^'^ ""^ road was in very bad order and would not ffive and r« fii .K • <^-"^f' r »'^r«^*. antl a little bit of macadamizing would do it ifood and re leve the canal bank of a lot of encumbrance and allow the neon e to tHk« - I made it a point Mr. Lit^S ¥h.Xf:t£ '-^- ^^'^^ ^'^ ^«'-^^-«- -^-^ ^- Schreibe, Q. ;\^«« that about the boginn' -of April ?-A. About that. •ong^wh^; i;r:ril:::xi^Lt:ir' "-^^ '--^ °" ^^^^ ^•^^'^- ^* -- « ^-^ % ilfr. Vanier : y. But the works were pretty well advanced then ?— A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. TIa works commenced some time ill March ? A v^^ tu^ ct^ *.- water wa.tak«n out anj we thencommoncol ' ""^ ""'■*• ^ho .etti?,SK:r.ifr4rk1!tn:drir„u; Kb,".:, -r: s' the time, and there was a letter from Mr Kennedv S h « H ! l" n^ "t*\r° le*"® ir^^a^^ru':!^ "'• ""'"• ^^" ™ "- '^"''- » 'a°itic "um^k Mr K;nS^v'"Vr„;''Hij''"°,""'-^- '5«i>«i"«I"®'' yp" refer to from Kennedy to you of the 4th of Fobiuai-xr By Mr. Vanier: A. I not get By the Chairman : Q. The engineers have to look for themselves?— A Yen count of thlumel '^''^Not'lM^'^ ^^ an engineer to keepa close and regular ac- By Mr. Vanier .- By the Chairman : W. I ou had stone measurers?— A. Yes. Q. Were they under your control or Mr. Kennedy's ?— A THa™ w»,.^ L°e rLTfhrrt ^'^^ ^^'•^ ""'^^•- ^^- Kennedy's co^ntrol. "^i wtro'nlT here to see that the works were properly executed and finished by the Ist of May O Wh'' JT "*'* requested to furnish a statement twice a week ?-/ ' Yes infor^ia^on^ ^'' ^'" °°' ''^ *'"* '-^- ^^ ^ ^^^^^^ J"«* -^. I «ould not^g^i the at a| ^:n^. *f - ^] ^^i;;::^ - i:,ts -- Of ^^ but .t was personal more than anything else. I would go over thf wo E^n.f n"t cTurnoTs^eVeV^^rnrnryir ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ -tteTed^In^lf d^eti^tandl crow|o?ilC^^^ - there was a At fX' „^ ^°" *''®*' "r^H^ f*°. estiniate of what the stone-cuttinjr was costimr ?-A At the commencement I did. but at the «nfi thnr- wa= n- - -1 ** >>a8 tosung f— a. days, and I had no time to go and count what it wou«d cost. I had confidence i^ wer( 66 Mr. Kennedy that ho was doing the thing a!l right, and I did not see why I "should not let him go on and do the work with hia staff of timekeepei-8. I saw no reason for addilionul expense to havo the time kept over his shoulders. By Mr. Vanier : Q. You knew that Mr. Kennedy was responsible for the good econom)' of the works ? — A. Of course. Q. Was not your own stalT curtailed by the department in obliging -ou to replace Mr. Desbarals by Mr. Papiiieau from your own office ? — A. Yes, l' had to take two men out of my office. It was on aconunt of econoniv. Q. Did thoy not do that to save expense?- .i. Yes, !t5t> >iaid there were enough in my offics to do the work. Q. Would you have been allowed two men to do the work ?— A, I do aot know, but when iliey were going on economy so strongly T did not try it Q. By .-; cironm- ■taBces I woaW not say it was. You had to have a crowd of men, even .*' i.f.«y did ( «r fialfw" ffio'rth ,tTo'« JifvJl" „;,rS^' ^^^ '' "»? '"'^r '°'^' others wer. all idle. mstonce, was the only man working, and th« A, C?K"nV™b5rwVhe°™rp'„?„'S, -°* »' ""■ '"' - *«' '"» °th.,.. did ? - By the Chairman : whon they were Shonsine ell the lirno Ynn hL iT™ ""u""" °"'''"K «">"«<■>! rt-?„hw£riS«^^ and o you know who his timekeeper was?— A. One was Cono-hUn four or five. He will be able to give the details better than? ^*'"«^'"'- He bad Q — „«.„ .„ 6«»" iiiD ucwtiio uobier man i, n' ffH® ^ *^? timekeepers under Mr. Kennedy's control ?— A Entirelv y1 \t-^ ^^" "^/^ **"** ^I-^^- ^°"'« P'^opo^^d to take charge of the work?- les, but it was not acftflntfiH Iwnanco k/«-.V.u _„* .i.i ^""'e" "V.'^°® woisr — Q 7-— ." •"& "P'"'5 remarks and some litt e chautres took niann . Do you know if Mr. Papineau did that ?-A. I think so ^ Q. Did he ever do it?--A. f think he did. " Trpnk. H I know he took action on the Grand I 68 11 Q. Why did you not see he was carryinf? out his instructione?— A. I told you before there was lotH to do, and it was supposed he was carrying out instructions. Q. Would you have known definitely whether he was or not?— A. If I had known what I do now, I would have seen closer to it. Q. You should have seen to it at the time and have known it at the time ? A Yes. Q. Do you say it was ordered that Mr. Desbarats should be taken away and Papineau put in his place. Is it not a fact that the works were not commenced then, that he had not even staked out the lines for the bridges, and that Papineau did that himself ?— A. Yes, but he was not prepared for it. It was on the l^t of March that Desbarats was put off and the works wore commenced on the 8th, and then Papineau came in, knowing nothing at all about the state of things and he had to go in and study the ground and everything and had only a few days. ' Q. He had eight days ?— A. That ia not much. Q. AH he had to do was to study the plans?— A. And the ground, and he had to ith the derricks and engines and all kinds of plant in his way. I Bduuy an inai wi... »..», .^»/.i../.»o >••■» ou^iuvio uuu un amun ui pmuL III ni8 waj remember being there trying to help him the best way I could to get his points It was a very difficult matter. Q. At that time Desbarats had not made any points. He had not staked out the bridge ?— A. No, but he had points. I know he had some we could not find out. Q. But the bridge was not regularly staked out ? — A. No. Q. Did Mr. St. Louis carry out his contract as you expected in the selection of good men. You staled in your telegram that the men should be choice men. Was that carried out?— A. To a certain extent, but not all through. Some men he supplied were not first-class men. Q. What proportion ?— A. I said five per cent of what was left after thoy sacked men, because they used to sack men pretty lively. I saw them sack two or three in a quarter of an hour. By Mr. Douglas : Q. You stated in the beginning of your examination that you were not respon- sible for the original plans of the bridge. I find by letter dated 18th October, 1893 from you to Mr. Trudeau, chief engineer of canals, that you say, " I beg to submit for your consideration series of plans and an estimate of the cost in connection with the building of the new bridge across the Laehine canal en Wellington strftst." Then, you go on to estimate the total cost of the works at $175,000, and then you advise the government to build the substructure by days' work.— A. Those plans were sent me from Ottawa for examination and to sign them after approval. Q. Were you asked to approve of these plans ?— A. Yes. Q. And the estimate ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you not make an estimate for yourself?— A. Yes, but that was after- wards. Q. Why did you put your name to an estimate you knew nothing about?— A. I looked at it, and found it was good enough, and then on a second thought I said Look here — ' Q. Answer my first question. At the time you wrote this letter you had not made calculations?— A, T had made calculations and had seen all those calculations in Ottawa before they wnre sent to me. After I signed them, I got thinking it over and said that will not do, that is not enough. That amount will not cover the expenses. So, I was making a second calculation to submit to the government telling them we must increase the cost, when the change came on to 18 feet and then the 22 feet and so on. ' Q. We have had all that before. Did you get definite instructions to sign these plans and estimates supposed to be worked on?— A. No, there were no definite instructions. Q. Were you so bound to Ottawa that when they made plans and sent them down, yoQ signed them ?— A. Yes, to naake them uniform and not mix up things. I would sign them in Ottawa, and was the party to sign them. 69 „» nS" ^T ^ere fesnonsible for the work and were actually under Mr Desbaratfl s 8r;Uu.rir t^t.^ ^«" ^^- ^'•"^-"'- -^ --^ ^^- ^" -'C discu^^ed'^ttrtCthef '""' '' ^'- ^^'''""*« '*''«"* *^«- P'«- ?-A. No. we thed^pt?"and;u^i{;,";^c; ^^P«°'«"^ ^'^^ «'==« "^ ^^^ «"bworks and other things, sftvini •^"pf'! '^'^ January, I find a letter fiom Mr. Collingwood Schreibor to you t^i proposed to''£ b":.^" 7fcr-'b'° ^racingH and plans of this masonrj^as nJl V^y?^^ to be built. I fand there is no copy n the department " Did M,- Desbarats bring the whole plans of that bridge do^l^ here to £ntr"a ?-A Yes they tuWrdVoS;;^ •" ''''''''' '-^- ' ''--"- ^« '^^'^ "-•^-g - OttaVie t»,„*^' ^°u T^^*^. «"PPO«e by Mr. Schreiber's letter of the 18lh of Januaiv that tt ZV\\-''^ "™' "" '"^ '^^ P''^" «f ^^'^ substructure ?-A Yes the ^Sbst .uc ture at hat time was prepared in feontreul, because it was the abutment and cei?r« pier which was made in Ottawa. It was kll ready, but the abutSs were n^? -A.^6fW8e!' ^'" ^''^'''^'' •■« co^o^'-ned. this office is responsible for the nlans ? Q. Would you judge so from that letter ?— A. Yes chani; neVnV"^ '"^^ •' ^^^^''"""y ^20.000 is what you estimate it. That is for tb*- change of 600 yards in masonry which he said he made?— A Yes Janua;v? A T^f^''^ is responsible for the plans subsequent to the 18th of bridge^fflTe ^^^^^^^'^ """^^ '" Montreal, not in this office, but in the Wellington enlaSeit7''rfH!?nn'J^''^'''\''°''''™u**® ""^ ^^^ i<'<^^^^'>^ cost owing to the eniaigement (—A. I do not remember ever been asked to give one y Uid you give an estimate for the increased depth to be "added on to th« original estimate ?-A. Not to my recollection, unless ?erbaV and then "t mi^h? O Xl: h^'^r f- ^°?'"^ r' ^-^^^^^'^^^^ the office, nothing „ wriUng ^'^^ Q. To the best of your knowledge, you do not remember giving an estimate to Mr. Haggart or Mr. Trudeau ?-A. No. it was all verbal after tSe first o^.f^fnS estimate, and I do not think I ever entered into an estimate when the abnmeS were decided upon. There may have been a little talk aDiUments 1,-n.,.^" •'f»^<' yo" any personal knowledge of the account with regard to th. 'Yei ThS wa« th« *"-^^'' r;J '^ y*"ViS° *''«'" '"^"'y aHsuperintendinfeng neer ?_A Irtiirch.rXr"."r h '''"^- \ '^"""^ I"'*.". ^«" '^''^ ^«« '""terlal i^equhU of a SThol w^^ V ^^*^.®*''^''""** were certified by those who received the mater al and those who ordered it. Everything was correct, and I supposed it was all S Q. Here is an account of Henderson Bros exhihif f! 19 in ^u;' u »k • ^ i U to^'vot t"" 'T i'^'T' ''"i? ^•^^'•^ i« a°£u SV4Motddit}on . $toS'ootari"^Wa" ract^-i^Ti:'o f uTo T rT' ^^ "™^^ ^«*^ g"*"^>°^« the original con! Swatnr^r"':^^?hX "'^ ^"'■P"'^ ' ^"•'"" ''™^""^' ancf the false ^,A '^j®'® ^^^ *" originel bill of quantities given out and a contract enfared intn fntrt ♦v.l' <•„! ? to youi knowledge?— A. Yes, m this way : I knew it was eoinc- SS'ls?gnSit ''"'''• ^ ''"'^ '^' ''"''^' ^^^ ""''^ '«^«'"<'' ^-^d when the bmfamf boughMidVknw?'^"^°^ *'"''" '"'"^''' ''^ y°"'' ^"o'^'«dge?-A. Before it was 70 Q. Was it bought with your sanction and knowledge ?— A. No. By Mr. Vanier . 8' ]T®i'lr*'^*^® **"^ regular '(Mtuisi',:' , -A. No, none to bay. Q. Did Mr. Kennedy have unjautaority to buy that extra 846,000 from you ?— A. i do not thmk he was authuiizod by me, not to my recolloction. He mav utata if I did or not. I do not know. j' ""aio Q. Did you make any oHorts to check the amount of timber delivered ?— A Not the quantity. Q. Did you take the bill as granted ?— A. Yes, I went f, md and looked at the timber bought and I romembor Korae of it was roj<-< . ^bcuuoe it wae not tho proper Q. Did yon riicn your name to bills of timber, culled spruce, culled plank, culled a««'«9fovory kind, spruce and hemlock invoiced at pine prices. Mr Abchibai :> -I object to that. The commissionersays these are pine Drices when the^' are not r i* "w" Mr. DouoLAs.— 'Ihe only thing befoio the commission is the original contract There is no contract fi,r anything else. Mr. ARcniP,LD.--The contract with Henderson Bros, does not say pine timber but simply timbt r, and the price ho is to got for it. ^ 3Ir. pouQLAs.- The specification was entirely for pine, and all this lower price timber had been invoiced at the rate for pine, anci I ask Mr. Parent if he is responsible for these accounis. He signed his name to them?— A. I did not look over every Item, but I sent this to Ottawa. 1 signed thorn on the faith of the signatures fi-om tho men as cori-oct. Q. You made no personal investigation yourself ?— A. I did give some exami.wi- tion to It, but not into all the details. b " "*•»■" Q- Merely as checking it a little y-A. Yes, I did not go over the whole thing as 1 did not hav- the time, lao accounts came in rather late, they were waiting for IT^ \l ^"f7« ""'^ "''' ''"'* to hurry, but everything was signed as received correct, and I thought there was no risk in signing. • i4A^V^^^®'"®''J''® ^^^° accounts of tho Royal Electric Co. for «60, S128, «380 and »140. Do you know anything about these?— A. Yes, tho.o accounts wore looked into more carefully, because they are not very lor-!:, Q. You signed them because Mr. Jsennedy signc 1 them?.-A. No; I looked into those. Q. Look at exhibit C 2 ?-A.Ii looked «( the ace nt, Ithouputit was all right. y. Were there tenders ?— A. 1 liiok there were tenders for ihat coal. y. Here is a very large account all charged to Wellington street bridee Ihere IS an immense amount of material there which was not used and remaining in the workshop. Was that rdered .vi , ,,out your kn. wledge ?— A , If it was pur- chased with mj knowledge and with a requisition, ihe requisition would have accompanied the account. Q. That was ordered by Mr. Kennedy and you signed your name in the sarr.o way because the storekeepers signed it?— A. Yes. • 4 ?• ^°.?^ '** ^^'^''''.•^ C 7 being an account <^ Doug' le fir ?— A. I was author- lued by Ottawa to purchase that without tender. Kn.-..^' n®'L'-V"° ^?T"l^ l"""^. }^^ inge'-soll i u ( for one engine and two hoists, all additional to he derrick. vVas that w; .you, auction?— A No Q. With your kuo vledge ?— A. The IngersoU Co. had a contract for ; irtain number of ; omes and the additional machinery was bought. Q. Were the additional engines necessary ?— A. Wherever I looked on the work everywhere and where engines were made use of, there was not more than were needed. It was very safe to have them under the circumstances, as to finish on the Ist of May was the bie noinL Q. In the derricks, I think additional machinery were bought outside the aernck. 1 presume you saw them and considered them necessary?— A Ifvou buy an engine, you also buy tbs rigging along with it. Tl Q. Who made loquimtiou for labour on the Grand Trunk bridRe to Mr St o w it .°*'^ T '"'''".'/'' '*' '^'"■" '^•" "">' »'"' *'"»' w**" contrary tooidoi-H. ' «. Wanthat on the certificate of labour in the pay-IiBti coantor«iffnod by you ' ;::1^;w. r^'..""'^"'' **'" """^''"' "* ^'•- ^"P'"**". who would «*« that tfero w.mid not UK.^'9^'"; ^>'neau «aid ho did not take any ro«pon»ibility with regard tu tho labour ?-A. He nhould have followed hJH inntruotionH '^ Q. He »ai.l he had inntructions from Mr. Kennedy and you that it was not neoes«iry /-A. It was not that. It was to keep the time. anJ not to hoo wTothor engineer ""'"^ '""" "" "'*'• ^' ^"^ '»'« coaduct'of li.o work as Saul o..ler^;,f?heSoma" '•"^'"'"^•°"' '"«'• '«bo"?-A. No. they we.e provided on the othe?caIe*!'''"' •"■^"'*^-^- ^'"'> ivonnedy in the one case, but Mr. Papmeau in tho Q. Mr. I'apinoau said he gave none?— A. It is be who should have ifiven them in his position of assistant en' eer. ^ Q. You know nothing of tho piuviding of men on that work 'f—A No Q. Do you know anything about who were Mr. Kennedy's timokooper8?-A. Mr. Kennedy appointed them. i ■> . a. Q Not on the Grand Trunk ?-A , He appointed timekeepers for all over. He kept ihe time ail over and signed tho pay-listb. By Mr. Vnnier : not k^ep^t'h^time' '"^^^^ ^""'^' ^*' ' ^"^ ^^'"^ ''* ''''"''^ "''' "'»" ^'^^ P"^'"''' '*" ^® ^'** ^y Afr, Douglas : Q. The evidence before the commission has boon that one of the night tirae- k .ipws, wh(. IS timekeeper on tho Wellington street bridge, was insir ;ted to walk over ibe u -ks every night and give a genorui idea by counting how mar v men there wf And this night timekeeper for Mr. Kennedy says he did walk over and did no, ke very long about it. Is this what you call timekeeping ?— A No- 1 did not say Mr. !• Minedy appointed all the timekeepers, but ho appointed the timekeepers who were working under his control. Whether he appointed a sufficient number or not, I do not know. '^^ "*^wiii. empb e??i.^A" Ye? "^^^^^ ^"^ ^'' '^^' "'^"'''' "'"®''*°P«'"' ^^'" ^^^ """nl^er of men Q. To whom ?— I applied once to Mr. Villoneuve, but in oonv<>rsational wav Q. You never got a listV-A. No; I expected that to be supj nd to me by Mr, Kennedy, who was the overseer. < i « " "»" "y By Mr. Vanier: Ur.A^' 9^^? Pl'iced Mr. Papinean in charge of the Grand Trunk and Wellington bridges?— A. I put him there, but it was Mr. Schreiboi who told me to do so I insisted on keeping Mr. Besbaiate. Q. The plans . f the bridges that Mr. Schroiber signed wore made where ?— A I do not know that he signed any, except the sul/n.ructure to hSiJ^X ^"betructure ?-A I do not know that he signed any. I am inclined to Deneve that tfie plans now sh( wn me wre made lu Ottawa, bv Mr Paoinoan T know that he worked on pl«ns o hai sort. ^ ^»pi"oaa. i Q. Were all the plans i ade w hen Mr. Desbarats lef>, ?_A No- a^^nf h^ie *u^ piausacmaily existed that were made then. The others were made since bv Mr Jfapinean. •' Q. You said in yoiir original evidence that the original plans .ore sent by Mr iruueau trom Ottawa down here for you to countersign or approve of ?— A. Yes. 79 Q. The Hamo thing with reffard to the ostimntos ?— A. Yes (^, You fcnt Ihtm baclc to Ottawa '/—A. Ye« .l„n^«i !!-"! >;"" r»<«°'o"^. J;Ontidence in M r. Trudoau. the late chief enRinoer, to Biffn pi, nH and eHt.mutOH without going into them ?~A. I did Icit into them ind olK.w.d thorn an they were worlced up. I Icnew all about theno plann and Smaia I Huw whT.T"" '^r,"'.""^ [°"''^"'' ^""" ^^«" '^'^y ^«'« ''«'"« "'^^ in Ottawa I Haw what thoi' asked lor the maNu,.iy, cement, c< and I approved of that, hut after a Hocond thought, I «« d, "That will ru.t meet the necosHitioH of the caeo/' So 1 8a.(l. I am going to make another and a larger eHtimate/' and it w.w when we wore ju«t going to work to get it flninhed that changes came ' along, 18 LruTtoL Q. WnH not a good portion of the material bought by Mr. Kennedy an the work progrcHHod, with.,, . your sanction ?-A. AiwayH.*" Not in the beginninK " the beginning we had a talk about the contract, and arrangements were made as to how we would dispose of them and what kind of material wo woiUd buy The e ZZu^ri f"" ^>;''«'"««'on about that, and we came to the conclusion that we rnmi "^^.•?''^*"''°'"- Tenders were called for, and the Ingersoll Eock Drill nav *;^- f "J/, "«*•''«."«"?' P'-actice for a chief engineoi- to countersign accounts and pay-htts without going into a minute verification of everything?-!. Of course It th^t way!" ""''"'■^'"'**°« '^''^^ ^''•'"*^3^ «'«"«'! the same. ^In alTbuslness it is always Q. Is it not the usual practice for chief engineers to sign plans proDared bv sub- Yl"n;^'o''.''*'r' ^°'"« into minute details a?d checking^ovfr meSments ?--A. Yes, not only for engineers, but for nearly all lines of business. There are ways of doing things by specitication and tender, and it would bo easy to make requisitions every day.'""^^ '"'^ ^" ^"'^ '"*' '' "^^ ''"^ ^""'^ "°^ ^' ^"'^'"S «"" '^^SS By Mr. Douglas : Q. You had instructions to stop cutting stone for lock No 1 ?— A Yes t i,'^ ^°" *':^''' '*'"'— '^- 1 immediately transmitted the order to Mr. Kennedy A T r;,m«lr" g'^« any'nsfuetions to Mr. St. Louis to stop the stone-cntting?! A 1 lemember one day I was passing the sheds-that was a couple of days after I received the letter from Mr. Schreibei-an.i at one of the little sfanties 1 saw the hollow quoin patterns there. I asked what that was for, and they said, We a^ just going to cut hollow quoins. I told the foreman not to do so aJd he said " Wt Sno „n 1 fl .«*V^.' What Will we do with the stone commenced V " I saia. " Con- t nue and finish ,t, but you must stop all the rest." I went away and thouVht it was all right especially as Uv. Kennedy had been informed of the ofder ^ Louis' forenfen"?-A. y^'g";""""" ^" ^'"'""S- »'• ^''^ i^ ™«'-«'y verbally to one of St. Lo„i^I;.nnii^'*?if-~^^ ■' "°* ^^'- ?.*• ^"''' f«'-eman, but the foreman which Mr. St. ijouis supplied the eovernment. He had no control over the men A. Yes ^'^^'^ instructions to the foreman St. Louis supplied the government?— Q. Do you remember his name ?— A. No, I never knew him. By the Chairman : w^MklJ?" ^P"Hl *^'*"* ^^^ *'"!'®'' '^ei'vered by Henderson Bros. Are you aware whether ,t was all p.ne or not all pine which was put into the work?-A ThJie was false work which took a good deal that was not pine. In the oemanent wotk I believe, it was mostly pine. Some few niec«8 ma/hnva „«ne j^ Z ^Jl r^u^^^ it was [square timber." " .. Q-.~^^..eu. -tpme. x tuink Q. Do you know that two carloads of hemlock went into it?— A It mic-ht h« possible. It was square hemlock, though. i mio ur A. it might be c c 73 Q. Was it notfltttt«ul?— A. I do not rememb«r Hooing any of the flftttoci and even if it did go in, it would not have htnuric mo at the time, Uxiaudo, attor all' if it WM with croHB-tieH 1 would not mind, becauHo it i« juHt as good as tho other. ' Q. Is it worth an much monoy 7 — A. No. Q. How is tho timber billed in tho account?— A. I did not hoo that there was hemlock put in for pine in tho account. Q. r>o you know how the account wa8 worded and what was charired?— A No I do not remember now. ' Q, Wan there any chnrj^e made for cuIIh and flatted uprucc or other timber of that kind in the bill that you are awaro of i'— A. No, coitainly. If I had soon any- thing in tho Mhiipo ofcuIlM it would not have nameil if charged at the price of plank If It wiiH worded culls and that kind of thing, U would not have got in. Q. It is not 80 deworibed in tho bill ?— A. I do notsuppwe ho. You quite HurpriMcd mo when you mentioned at all that there had been Homothingof that sort. I did not go through the bill of timber from ono end to tho other. It came to me for my Hig. nature and tho checking hud boon done and I took it for granted. Q. Had you no timber inspected ?— A. There was a culler. I do not remember ni8 name. Mr. Konnedy hud a culler. Q. Is it not usual for the culler to give reports to you of the timber?— A. No he gave them to Mr. Kennedy. Q. Did you not Hoe tho timber yourself ?— A. Yes, 1 saw a good deal of timber that 1 condemned. Some of that flatted timber I would not take because it was not the right size. It was called to be ten inches flatted and was only five and below. I fraid that I would not accept anything below eight inoheM. Q. Was that for the permanent crib and whaiflng?— A. More for the pile driving. ^ Q. Flatted ?— A. That is notconvenient. There are lots of stringers and cross- ties U} go in there. That was not done but left olT for another year. That was not accepted because it was not the proper flatted limber. Q. Had you to reject largo quantities of wood on that account?— A. Wo con- demned about 300 or 400 sticks. Q. Of what length ?— A. Between 20 and 30 feet. Some of them may have been used in the permanent work for cross-ties, Q. Some were condemned ?— A. They were condemned for one purnose and might be good for another. ' Q. There was no specification for tho cribwork ?— A. No, it was made by the day, so that we did not make any specification. If it had boon by contract it would have been ditferent. By Mr. Atwater : *u ^' ^®'"® .*'>® changes in the original plan made on account of the necessities of the canal ?— A. Yes. The first change was the 18 feet, just the same object as the J^ teet. It was made to suit navigation and the trade generally, which wanted deeper navigation. Q. Wore those changes nof^cssitated by the demands of the trade ?— A Yes very strong influences were brought to provide for 22 feet for navigation. ' ' Q. That it was in the interest • t the country generally? A. Yes. Q. That was one principal change? — A. Yes. Q. That change increased the cost, did it not, considerably ?— A. Yes. I. u^.' i)^^"' cost?— A. Especially the increase of labour and the short time If he had had lots of time it would not have made much difference. Q. You had to do it while the water was out of the canal and so as to have the canal ready for navigation by the Ist of May. at all events?— A. Y«« th.if. wa« fh» condition. You might as weii give up your head altogether if not finished the Ist 01 May, Q. In .^ lur capacity of superintending engineer for a number of years on the canal, whai do you think would have been the consequences to the country generally 74 if the work had not been done by the lat of Mav ? A it mrnnU ko^o, k„ nf tK?"„ I •'"wuP'^''" ^^°V® ^'^''''S® "^ ''^'^S '» tl»« public interest the deeoeiiinff woui^-notrtht^Jir AlKateo:^ ""'"-^^^^^ '^^' ^^« ^-'^^ ^-"'^ n^enSmerl;'? MarcV'"' '~''' ' ^''' the date this morning. It was about the com- Tr„n?'K^-5 ^ tbat time, all that had been contemplated with i-eaard to the Grand ^ bridge was the superstructure ?— A. That is all ^ rr. 1 ■ ^be government were going to put in a new supprstructure for the ftranH Trunk andthoy were to buildt1,eirownabutment8?-A. They we.o?o di evervth^ni aad the government would refund thorn. ^ everything take?t ? a"' v«7/r"^ ''■flu'' '^^^ ^' ^^^ ^«^ °^ March, that they could not under- take it ?— A. Yes, they said they were not able to do it. J' « ""'' unaer Q. But it would have been very awkward ? A it tjt/m.m k„„ u loss of work that had been prepard^andTne. *''"""' n^ofJ"^' ,T^° permanent staff had been at work since December ?--A Yes and all th« materials and everything had been contracted for ' *^® also ?^I." Yes.'* ''' P'°^'*^" ^°'" '^« ^'"""'^ '^''""'^ bridge, the water being 22 feet Q. None of that work was contemplated in the original estimateH ? A Kn or leS; IZSl r;?,uL™nt ' '' "" '"" '•""''-"■ '"'■ "P '» ^«^™"y. """« 76 Q. Why did you not commence work on the 15th of December ?— A. On account of the pressure brought to bear on the government by in to rested parties, miil-ownera especially, who wanted to stop the job and said it was ruinous. Q. In other words, the water of thei canal keeps going a great many industries ? — A. Yes, It keeps a ^reat number of men busy. Q. And if these industries had been shutdown three or four months the men would have been thrown out of employment ?— A. Undoubtedly. ' Q. It was on that account the work was delayed as late as possible ? A. Yes. Q. When you did commence and go on with the work, what were the conditions you had to labour under ?— A. Well, they commenced in March. When the water was taken out first the ice was cut, to give us a chance to build and haul, at a great expense. The water was then taken out of the temporary work, erected platfoims ^d platforms in the bottom of the canal, inclined pianos to get to the canal on the Wellington basin and two or three others at the jheds. There was a lot of false works there ant' then, there was a temporary bridge erected there, not only for the public but tor tne wants of the workmen and the derricks and all kinds of things Then, there was the putting up of the dams, making cofferdams, and the cofferdams broke and we had to take them out. They broke a second time and we pumped them out again. And then, another big cofferdam which was not anticipated had to be mudo. There was a dam about across the canal and the wing dam carried all along their extent. ° (cl. What we have seen in the photograph ?— A. Yes, all that work was very diffi- cult to get over and the men were working under very unfavourable circumstances. Afterwards the flood camo on from the St. Lawrence and made us lose two or throe days. There was also the building of the highway. In fact, there was a foreman all the time. Q. From your knowledge of the work We have heard the evidence of Mr. Jieemer who said he thought the work could have been done without removing the ice and by working through it. Would that have been feasible ?— A. It is not my opinion. It might have been done and it was the way I intended to do the work if they started the 15th of December. Secme a good cofferdam around the main pier while the water was out of the canal, build it up and then let the water into the canal and use the ice. Q. What about the abutments?— A. They were not foreseen at the time. It was when the abutments came the whole thing was changed. We had to change all the plan. There was no more work under the same conditions as before. Q. Speaking of the actual work done, what is ycur opinion of the feasibility of this scheme of cofferdamming mentioned by Mr. Beemer ?— A. 1 die' not believe it could have been done safely. If there was lots of time, you can try a dam, if you do not succeed, you will try it over again. Q. But if you had failed in this experiment, and lost three or four davs vou vrould not have completed in time ?— A. No. Q. Have you had experience working through the ice?— A. Yes; I remember fk '''■ S^'j" ^® ^^ """'"^^ ^°'"S "" ^° cofferdam, and they wore building cribs for the cofferdam on the ice. The ice was pretty solid, but when thoy got the timber '•equired for two or three rows of ciibwork on the ice, the ice began to sink and they had to work in water all tho time. Ice is not much heavier than water and it does not require a great deal to sink the ice down and you get tho water on tho ice and you work under water. Q. The bame thing might have happened here ?— A. There were a great many chances it would have been the same. Q. As things turned out, they had a 'iretty hard winter last year and the ice frozen on the bank, ?»ut was there any means of knowing that in Doconibor or November when you were making your arrangements how this work should be finn«.^_A M.-. - we cipoeted a softer winter. Cannot ' ' '' ' ' than 3 feet. oxpect A. Yes Q. Even so, there might have been obstacles to working safely on it?— 76 if Q. Even if it had been done m the way spoken of by Mr. Beemei-, how would the co8t compare with the cost of the work as it was done?_A. I do n^t kTw I cannot realize how we can prevent its going to cost a great deal becansn fh« <=offerdam would be as high as the level of t^ew'^.ter in theca^aTandgetUngarounS all those structures there it strikes me it would be very expensive I do not see how they could have made a cheap job of it. Fifteen high to cofferdam is no Ue o« ^' ^7,^"*^® spoken about these false works and tempoi-ary works, have vou any Idea of the quantity of materials that went into them ?-A. I know there La great^quantity went in. I asked Papineau to make the measurements and [ think *h„^?;,^''"* T"? •?:?".f^ "*' ^° ^^^ necessity of these false works ? How far were they necessary to build the permanent works ?_A. In my opinion I would have done aw^ with tho platform on the south side, some 800 feet Q. What was that used for ?— A. For the derrick. Still I cannot sav that it might not have saved some days, and that was a great item. I think thJt mLht have been avoided, but that is a matter of opinion^ Some others mi-rht say that has been a great service, but I think if the derrick had been put on The gid it TaWy as wen.'''"'* ^"'P""'' ^''^"P' ""' 'l"''^ ^' ^^" "^"^ might h^ve done T<- \ Leaving out the platform, the rest was necessary?— A. It was not too much Q. You had to do a certain amount of work in a great hurry and hud to orovide Shw*^ means accordingly ?_A Yes; and it was ^foreseen fhut all thlSer which wont into the fal.e works had to go back into the permanent works A Sir t y^'^ . *"*° account in your first estimate the cost of the ful^e works ? —A. No; because it^was not intended to use thorn. What I intended was to put a cofrerdam just around the pier and then have the whole from the cofferdan on the sides bridged over and have your derricks on each side. ^o"c,raam on tfte Q. That was before the changes were made and with the idea that you would D^^ir^hl^V ll^ of December, and that all you had to do was to provid^ a cent ^ pier for .he Wellington bridge and remove a certain amount of cribwork?-A yes ; then the ice would be strong enough and could be used to hel|. for the derricks* All the stone would have come on the ice. uoiiione. Kon?;i?i^ Tw n^r- ^«" y«° *^at you need at all be afraid about reproving Mr. son, cerUiiTl "" •■emember. I knew there was something of that « Tf i'.T"'' "^T ."T? ""'f^^'^ officially ?-A. It was conversations. They said- If you are not satisfied, why do you not put him out." J «aid : " I cannot do it " He IS absolutely nidispensable and m.ist stay there. That is my opinion Other mTi! c"ai do ""'' "'* indispens«ble at all, that many men caTi dl that anotheJ Q. You were afraid of interfering with the progress of the work?— A Yes • posting hrm"^f;?pP'"^' '" ^'^"- ^^«""«^y'« P'««« ^0"W have to lose threeorfbur Jay; Q. This interview you have spoken of in which you referred to Messrs. Ocilvie & Curnm, where did that take place ?-A. In Mr. Trudeau's office, Ottawa ^ of the bridge?-' A Yes ''*'' ^'""^'^ " recommendation to give Mr. Kennedy charge Q. Was not that ail it was ?~A. Well, I do not know what he meant There is one thing sure, that they might hove dispensed putting him the queSn in tJat way in my presence, because it was a very delicate thing for me to hear ^ whownifiihil P^"*^"°''^*'u •"t'^"t[«°- Mr. Kennedy was naturally the man Tut whv hi l't''''-f '''' "■ ^ "^"^ '^' superintendent ?-A. 1 could not well make out why they made it a special point to put him th^rA wf^T 'ir ■'v-x- .,='-—'!- "• man to be there. ' * ' ' " "^ "^uuuiij taa ^rr.J^' ^,''yf»J^"o^ whether there was any discussion as to another man beimr overseer /-A. 1 do not think so. I felt first it was a blow at me, * 77 A *^;t^"^ didyou feel that; Mr. Kennedy did not get any emolument or extra fee? —A. Ho, after working hard he got suspended. Q. There was nothing very extraordinary about the gentleman you have men- tioned speaking to Mr Trudeau on behalf of Mr. Kennedy to have him appointed overseer ?-A No, I do not say there was. When I come to think of it now I do " J^® wu" ^*\? »T^ '^'7 '^^ ^ '^"^ '''®°- 1 <'""'<1 not make out what they meant Q. When did that take place ?— A. Towards the middle of October Q. After It was determined to build the bridge C— A. Yes, it was *at the time they went up as a delegation, o^ter a meeting which had taken place in Mr Ogilv.e 8, about leaving the water out in December or March Q. It was after they had come to the conclusion it was in the interest of com- merco and the factory that tho water should not be let out until March '—A Yes Q. It was in connection with this thatthese parties thought Kennedy was a jrood man to be overseer ?-A. Yes now 1 understand it in that way, but at that time I thought It meant he wanted to be independent of all interference from any outsider Q. In justice to the parties named, they never said anything of that sort in vour presence or hinted such a thing ?-A. No, it was the mere thing they proposed Q. ihey gaveMr. Kennedy a recommendation as a competent man to fill the post of superintendent of the bridj;e ?-A. I see it in that liglft now, but did not at ~A S^'^'*'®^ "®^®^' ^^^"^ a"ything to you which would infringe on your prerogative? Q. Mr. Trudoau gave yon no instructions to that effect?— A. Yes, he told me Mr. Kennedy would be overseer of tho works. Q. He never said that Mr. Kennedy would be over your head?— A No more than that, ho gave mo to understand that xMr. Kennedy would have that po'sition but would act under my control. It was the question of limited control then that struck me. I did not know exactly what amount of control I should exorcise Q. Mr. Kennedy may have got, an exaggerated notion of what his powers were but all I want to bring out is that neither the department nor the officials ever told you that he was your superior? — A, No. Q. Or that ho was beyond your control ?— A. That was my first impression that he was to have the conduct of the work and that i need not have anything to do Q. But you found that tho instructions of tho depajtment were almost opposite to that and that he was to be under your control as oni'ineer?— A Yes it was 8f> understood afterwards. ' Q. When you said you saw men idle at the time, did you see more men idle on these works than you would be apt to see on others.' -A. I was everywhere on the works. The other day I was looking at some works under oonliactors where there was not a big crowd, and you could see a couple of men loafing when the foreman had his back turned. ° Q. Where is that?— A. On Notre Dame street. Q. Evidence has been givejn before the commission that a tremendous amount of loating was going on ?— A. Not so much as that, but tliere was some Q. Nothing more than might have been expected on work of this size?— A What might be expected. Q. And as regards the carte, did you notice more than wera necesKary ?— \ I saw some carts that were idle, four >f them in a row along the wall, and I a'iked Mr. Kennedy what they were doing there. He said : " They are idle at the moment but ni a quart'^ ' of an hour I may want them, and I do not want to have to run after them when I vvant them." Q. Did you take that as a reasonable explanation 2~-A. I thought that he wanted them m a quarter of an hour and it was all right. No doubt thare mu«t h« »hin„a or liittt son, HO that iil a given moment, instead of sending outside the works for carters they may be on hand. He may ha-) told them in a disciplinary way, to tiet out of the way until called for, and not he iu a bunch together obstructing the work Ill 78 Was that done on more than one occasion? one Hi m \Uf Q. You said you saw a man racked. .. _ ...„. _..^ „.. „.„, „ ,.,„„ „„g ^^^^ -A Yes, I saw Mr. St Loujs do it u couple of times and Mr. Kennedy too On De occasion I remember when one o'clock struck, there was a man who had not finished his pipe and ho was still sitting down pulling a couple of whifts more At the momen , he wus going to strike his pipe and would lose about a minuTe but he BhoVabalexaiJpIr' ^' ""' ''""'' '"^'^ °°^ ""^^ ^et to work knd not Q. Who put him oflf ?— A. Mr. St. Louis himself A. A^'iil'MrKeJryt wrtng ^'"^'""^ ^'^ °""'°^ ^^ «''^"« «" '^'^ ^- ' '- wereiarSoXa.'' "•^''"'' ^'""^ ™"''''-^- '^^^ ?'-« «^ ^'^^ -'g^-' -rk Q. By whom ?— A. By Mr. Desbarats. Q. And were sent down here ?— A. Yes, for approval A. A^.o^^'sOO^a^^ds.'''''^ "*°^ ''"^''' ^'"''*'' ^^'"^^^"'■y ^^^'^'^'^ Pl'"^« Provided for ?- Q. How much per yard did you calculate that stone at? You have in vour ongnia estimate $8,025 for stone. At how much per yard did you calculate i{?- yards of mas'^lfry ' "'' '* ^'' ""'^ " ^''''- ^^** ^"« "^^"^ «'^^««« ''""^red Q. As a matter of fact, there was 4,370 done finally ?— A Yes Q. It was on that estimate an appropriation of $170,000 was made ?-A Yes Q. Your estimate for labour m that original estimate is $33,000 ?— A That was wasToTfnough" '''''""""^ contemplated. And $6,400 for the plan? Q What you estimate for there would have been enough if the work had been Q. Speakirig of the false works, look at the statement C 30, produced by Mr. Pameau, of timber; can you form any idea whether the quantities entered a{ quantities to be accounted for, could have gone into the falsework ?1a I wou?d not like to guess at it. wuuiu By Mr. Archibald : «nh;w ^P*''"'" you said there was a lot of mill-owners who met with regard to the subject of unwatenng the canal ?_A. Yes, and not only mill-ownerg bat^rfh«r business men more or less interested. ^ owners, Dut other Q. What was the object of their meeting ?— A. There was a double obio^t U was to discuss whether it should be a bridge %uilt there or Ttunnefand there had been measurements and plan made for a tunnel. Then came the second lint whi?h Z Sev^Vn"?.' ^"w T "' /'* "'^"*'' ^"*^ '''' mill-owners decidedly^bjecreS tS that. They said: '' We have large interest at stake, wo have orders to mit and it will bo impossible to do ho if you take the water out at that season " (i. Wore they not anxious in anv event, whether the water was taken out in ?oured^'. ''"''*'* "^"''''^ ^'""' *' *''^'"* * '''^''■^' pos8ibl??~A Un° Q. Do you think lliat delays are sometimes caused by the formalities necessary m government offices for complying with their rules and reg,alationT?~A Cef- Q. Now, did not them Ill-owners fear that if the job were loft to the usual for malitics of government offices it would not be done as qnickiy as it miehtotherwfse a1 ;"• !• -^ ^'""'' i""" spacmcations and public lenders "and red tapo of overv description. If resoKed to, would have made'^it impossible to compIeS^the job on time ?— A. It would have, commencing at the time we did. " ^ j' w on I n f< q 79 Q. Was not the reason of these mill-owners asking for Mr. Kennedy to be ap- poinied overseer of the worit, with some little additional power beyond what he had as superintendent, to provide against delay and the accomplishment of the work ?— A. That may bo, and it is likely then, was something like that, because they knew quite well Mr. Kennedy was a man of great energy and push. Q. Would it have been possible to foresee at the beginning what materials would be required for the accomplishment of that work?— A. It v^as not -mpossible but was not likely that a man could think of everything in so short a time when he had so little time to prepaie. Q. Do you think it would have been prudent in the construction of the work if materials were requested then and there, to incur the delay of sending foi- tenders get tenders together, and send the tenders to Ottawa to he approved ?— A. There was another waj'. There was a requisition. Q. A requisition would have been the cause also of a little delay ?— A. Yes. Q. Where goods had not been tendered for and required, was it practicable under the circumstanoes. in the middle of the work, to follow the rules of the department carefully ?— A. No, there would have been considerable loss as we could not get any kind of a tender without four or five days being lost. Q. It would mean, certainly, that the work would not be done ?— A. Not in time. Q. There was not a day to spare ? — A. No. Q. Tn the specifications of lumber prepared by Mr. Desbarats at the beginning of this work, they were not for the exact quantity ?— A. In my opinion it was a certain amount required at the time, and afterwards if more were wanted more would be ordered. ' Q. Everybody about the works understood that?— A. No doubt; the lowest ten- der got the contract and there was not enough of material ; we asked for more. Q. You never thought of asking for other tenders ?— A. No, we had no time. Q. Where were the stones cut for the various works?— A. In the sheds Jacques' sheds, Q. Were those sheds divided from each other in any wav?— A. There was a kind of roadway between them. Q. The stones for the Wellington bridge were not got the same way as those for the other work?— A. There are throe sheds. The Wellington bridge occupied about two and then the No. 1 lock and the Grand Trunk bridge occupied the balance. ^ Q. Do you remember having any conversation with Mr. Kennedy with regard to the place where the lock No. 1 stone should be cut?— A. I remember at the time he wanted to put them in Jacques' shed, JN'o. 1. Q. Did he not want to separate them fiom the Grand Trunk bridge stone ?— A. Yes. Q. Do you know the reason his opinion was not taken?— A. I do not remember what took place. There wae a complaint, I believe, from St. Louis to Ottawa, and action was taken whereby it was said it was better to let the stone go with the rest. Mr. St. Louis complained of the loss of time caused by the men having to go four or five sheds further when they had enough to do at one shed. Mr. Kennedy did not want the stones mixe '. Q. Would it not ■,:<, onu^rramn'mg to the timekeeper to take two separate times on two lol» of stone ('--A f e timekeepers had no reason to take separate time for look No. 1. Q. They would r, ;< w by looking at the stone what it was for?~A. No. Q 1^0 you remember having a conversation with Mr. Kennedy in the presence of Mr. St. IjouIb' i-.reman wi*J» regard to the stopping of cutting lock No. 1 etoiio?- A. I gftid th»t on the first oce«4ion I first wrote to Mr. Kennedy, and about the day ^ ._. ^__.,_ aira^ .,. _ -.^tic =;:=nt,j, LUCrc, i saw Jir. Ot. iiOUiS' foreman of the stonecutters. I sttw him with the models and patterns of hollow quoins. I ordered them to stop t4e work, as the lock was stopped. He said : " What 60 m I said : " Finish what you will we do, we have lots of stone commenced cutting ?" have commenced, but do not undertalte any more. " Q. Was that said in Mr. Kennedy's presence ?— A No li^d uThu^" ^""'^ sure?— A. Yes, because if he had been there. I would have I d'd^" ^°" ^^ °*'' remember speaking to Mr. Kennedy about the matter?— A. Yes, Q. Did you ♦ell him they were going on with the stone already commenced ?— A. Yes; It would not do to leave the stone half finished «.f ?\ ^''' ®hu""u^f''^ """^ ^^^y y'''" ovdev6?~A. Yes, they did, because they did not cut any of the hollow quoins. ' j > j ^'^ Q. But they w.nt on cutting lock No. 1 stone?— A. It looks like it. Mr Jlennedy should have stopped them. Q. Thfjy should have obeyed your orders?— A. Yes. Q. Because you were Mr. Kennedy's superior officer, anyway ?— A. Not in their eyes. You remember what Mr. Schreiber, himself said tLat nothing was to be done except through the overseer Mr. Kennedy. That is why I wrote to Mr. Kennedy —AY s^^ *''^ ^^^''^ Villenouve was appointed timekeeper by somebody? Q. Did he take the time of the stonecutters on lock No. 1 ?— A Yes bat Mr Ivennedy took it also. ' A ,?• -^^ ^*^ ^^' ^il'e"ouve took the time of the stonecutters on the two works?- A. Ky impression is that Mr. Kennedy had a man on to check. Q. Do you know by whom Vilieneuve was appointed ?— A. I believe Mr St liouis tooK him I believe he had leave to take him as timekeeper for himself ' ' Q. Mr Vilieneuve was paid by the government ?— A. He had a salary. He was not paid as timekeeper. j ^ac Q But he was paid in some capacity ?— A. He was paid as clerk in the office of the collector, but having nothing to do in the winter he picked up little iohB y. Did you often see Mr. St. Louis dismiss men for loafing?— A. On two occa- sions I saw him. On one occasion I saw him put a man off himself. Q. To whom did he give orders ?— A. I did a^t notice the man. Q. Were you often on the woi-k?— A. Yes; sometimes four times a day. some- times only once. •" Q. Did you see Mr. St. Louis frequently ?— A. Yes. Q. What was he doing?— A. Going around the works and overseeing the men. And further deponent saith not. The commission then adjourned. E. J. DuGOAN, Stenographer. 81 Lachine Canal Inquiry. Montreal, 26th July, 1893. The commission met at 10 a.m. Present : Messrs. McLeod, Douglas and Vanier. Mr. Parent recalled. £y Mr. Douglas : dept?oSeTri°^lbt1trr7ti^lX''^ ^^*^« ^« be hunt to the fun of ?-A.^ Ye^s!' ^'''"' ^"" ^^^' ^''^ """' ^'" "'"* ^'"^^ ^"°*'«'*' to Ottawa to be approved Q, You will notice iu that pencil marks showin"- where Mr SfhiAiKn^ «k a the quantity of masonry in the abutments ?-A. Yes 1 reme^beV the rt « T^'"^ there when it was proposed to alter that. ' '^^°'^"''^' ^^^ "'^^"ge. I was Q. You saw the pencil marks there ?— A. Yes A v^' ^^^- t,''® «T® «° V^« ^rand Trunk bridge where the masonry is reduced ?- A. Yes 1 think that ,8 what it is. I was in Ottawa about that time. 1 know that mT Schreiber reduced the quantity ten feet on each side ' ofth^mrofryT'slr"'^ *'"^ ^'^"^ ^'^^^ '-^- ^^ ^-*' because the height Yes ^' ^''*" ^'"' ®°'""®'^^'' '^•'"''^ '^^ responsible for those plans, would he not?-A. Q. They were made under his direction ?— A. Thev were m»Hfi nnH«.. ^,,^- tion here in Montreal, but they were approved of by hi^ Of^urse ttvS t?'" for his approval-that is comprising 22 feet navigation ' ^ ^ ^"^ ^° Q. When you sent those plans did you send any estimate with them ?— A. No. By Mr. McLeod: Q. No estimate at all ?_A. No estimate. We were in a hurry and wanted the plans, and we sent them as soon as we possibly could. "-oumju cne Q. Was there no estimate made up to that time'?— A. The onlv estimate maH^ was the one for 15 feet. I was not ask^ed to make an estimate? Thefewrno^ much themselvr'''" ^ ^^^^^ ''""* "" ^"^ ^ *"" "^"""^ ^^ '•"^'' "''"''' ^^ *^® government callSf^rwafd:" "'™''' "^ '"' ^"* '''' ^'^^'^^'^^ «^ '""^ «^"« ?-A- That was Q. The estimate was calculated after that was sentuo?— A Y^s it w«. »„„ j i?i!r™/.etr.Lr '' »'" "•"' *» °'"- ^ -■■ --;'.-rio Q. There IS something said about a pile of earth at the side of the canal- Hn you know an.nai«g auoul tnat pile of earth ?— A. i'os, ihat was the earth that wLm excavated by the dredge. "^''^ of NSembc'r"^""^' ^"^ '^' *'«1'-Well. I should say it would be about the latter end 6 m\ iH Q. For what purpose ? — A. To repair the foundation of the cribwork, the exten- sion cribwork, and for the main pier, also the Wellington bridge pier. Q. It WBB made in view of those instructions? — A. Yes, excavated so as to have less to do when spring came on. When we commenced the excavation the dredge liad worked faster, and the whole thing was dug out in vic".7 of deepening to an 18 feet navigation. It was after that that it was decided to dig it down to 22 fieet, so it had to be dug still more. Then that earth v-as put on the bank. Q. In view of these projected works, would it not have been wiser to remove that earth further uwaj', ^o as not to be in the way of the stone ? — A. I do not know about that. We might have wanted that for cofferdamming; that might have turned out useful to make u cofferdam It was veiy good stuff. Q And that large quantity?— A. Not the whole of it, It was loft in the neigh- bourhood of the work so as to be on hand if required. That was the intention at the time. Q. Was it so close to the works as to impede them? — A. No, not the way ihe works were projected at the time. But afterwards it turned out to be too close, because wo extended the false works considerably, Q, You had to put down a much larger quantity of masonry ? — A. A much larger quantity all through. Q. Well, would it not have been wiser to remove it farther away ? — A. It might have been l)etter to put it a little further away. There would have been that much more haul if it had been required. Q. But a couple hundred feet in carting is nothing? — A. I suppose it would not have made much difference. At the time we thought it was f;ir enough away. Q. You say something in your letter to Mr. Schreiber about political interfer- ence ; what do you mean by that ? — A. Well, it was not merely on account of what I said yesterday ; on account of the nomination ; the special appointment of Mr. Kennedy as overseer; but it was also on the pressure of different parties to try and get as many as they could of their friends into positions on the works. Q. What kind of men? — A. Well, labourers — trying to get friends to work on the canal. I know there was a good deal of that, but that is of no great importance. The principal point that I alluded to was the fact ol influential political men recom- mending a man that was under my control to a position giving him a kind of in- dependence. I may have been mistaken as to their intention, but I felt so at the time, as I said yesterday, and it made me feel uneasy. Q. You said you changed your mind in reference to that yesterday? A. Well, I believe so. I do not know what their intention was, but 1 interpreted it that way until lately. Now T think that was not their intention at all. I admit that they had no such intention at all. I did not attach any importance to the words " political interference." I might have struck off that word in my report just as well as not. Q. You might have struck out the word and not have mentioned it at all? — A. Yes; it was not important enough to mention? You think now it was not of suflBcient importance to have mentioned it ? — A. No ; it was not. I feel now that I would have done better not to mention the words " political interference." Q. Are you aware that there was any political interference in the way of get- ting friends on to the work ? — A, I know myself that I have been asked ir I could not get work for men on the canal, I said I had nothing to do with them. Mr. St. Louia has also told oie that he was pressed by people to put men on the work, and it was awkward not to be able to please friends, and so on. But that is of no importance, because on all government work it is quite common. Q. You think it is of DO importanoo ? — A. No; you are not obliged to «M>ploy men because they wish to be employed. Q. Did it actually affect the works in any way, to your knowledge? — A. Jf<»} I could not say it made any difierenoe at all. Q. Were any men employed in consequence of that who did not a^derstand the work ? — A. ^K^ot t3 my knowledge. 83 Q. What was tho state of the labour market in Montreal at that time that is to say, were there plenty of me-^ ") be had ?-A. Well, 81.25 was about the aveni^o w« 3:„u''yJ'Tu^^'^ P'^"*^ "^ "^" ^-^- ^^' y««' P'«"ty of ">«". a« "lany as wo would like to have. •■ ^ > j »« A ^iV'^^n®? *' '**"* Heanon of the year there would not be much danger of strikes? — A. Well, 1 am not sure about that. Q. If there wore plenty of men they would not be likely to strike?— A Well they will strike sometimes. There was plenty of work in contemplation by the cor' poration of Montreal, there was a tunnel projected, there was work in the streets bv the street railway company, there was plenty of work in contemplation. Q. But had they commenced ?— A. No; but they were about to commence H. i>o you know when they commenced those works you sneak of ?— A Thnv commenced later than was anticipated. " ^ Q. About what time ?— A. The tunnel on Berri street was supposed to commence pretty early, and the consequence would have been that the men micht have cone woS°8 *^" ^'"^ ^'^^^' '* '^"** ^'''''''"* ^*'®''® ™'^'^'' ^*^ ''*'■'''"'' °" ^"''® government Q. Still there was an abundance of men ?— A. There was an abundance of men • we found that out afterwards. There is another thing that I did not think of the factovies were idle, and that gave us all the men of the factories, and that had not been taken into account. Q. Were they good men ?— A. There may have been better men, but, of course they always got a little preference on account of the water being taken out of the canal, which wao accustomed to furnish them employment. They were thrown out of employment by that fact, and they would likely get a little preference Q. Who directed that they should get a preference ?— A. There were no direc tions about that. I merely say it was likely, and that brought on the market a great may more men than we expected there would be. Q. You are not aware that any such preference was given ?— A No • I could not say that it was actually the case, but I remember we had conversations about it that It would only be doing justice to these men to give them the preference I think I talked about that with Mr. Kennedy. Q. You are not aware that it was done at all ?— A. No ; I am not aware that there was any action taken in that sense. Q. Don't you think that, taking into consideration the number of men at hand It was more advantageous to build those abutments at that time than in the summer ? —A. By all means it would have been better to build in the summer and cheaner also, if we could do it. ^ Q. It was utterly impossible to doit in the summer ?— A. It was impossible we could not stop navigation. ^ ' Q. The weather was better in March than in December, January and February was It not ?— A. No ; the month of March was a very cold month Q- Still it was better than January and February ?~A. I suppose it was milder than January, but still, March was a cold month. Q. Woiild you have lost a good deal more time in January and February than you would in March?— A. No; because the earth was not frozen. There would have boen no froat if we hud commenced on the 15th December. The frost would not be in the ground, and would not be in the works that had to be pulled down It was very expensive to work at frozen earth and frozen filling in the cribwork It 'was far more expensive in March than if it had been done in December and in January Q. Still labour done in January and February would be much more severe than labour done in March ?— A. The weather would have been more t-evere. Q, More constant?— A. More constant, I do not remember how ^ hat was in Dtc^mher. T think DfinAmh«r -roaH nrnftTr anft T lfnf..<^ *Ka* i-;'^ i^'- . ! -' ,-, — --" — 1 -^ "' • ^''^'^ to^L wane tuu w. irks were going on It was very cold. It was very colti in ij^rch for the season. 84 By Mr. Vanier : Q. Did you over hear (hat labourers and other employees on those works were imposed by "Utside parties?— A. No, 1 am not aware ot'lhat. Q. Did you hoar that in general the men who were engaged on ihoHo works hud to have a h iter of rocoinmendulion from outside parties?— No, I did not hear that. By Mr. Douglas : Q. Were you consulted .w engineer as to the methods of carrying out the work on the Grand Trunk and Ouiran bridges, 1 mean as regarUs the erection of stagings, the placing of derricks, and all that sort of thing ? Did you sanction the plan that was adopted of carrying out the works?- A. There was a little conversation about It, that is all, as to what was going to bo done, and I thought it was all right. Q. You were consulted about it?— A. A little, by conversation, saying; We in- tend to do this and we intend to do that. I naid that is all right. By Mr. McLeod : Q. Did you approve of it?— A. Yes, it was all right. I wanted to know myself how it was going to be carried out. By Mr. Emard: Q. I thinkyou said yesterday that you saw Mr. St. Louis dismiss some men ?— A. Yes. Q. Was it not natural on his part to send away men that were not doing their duty ? — A. Yes, I even found him severe. Q. There was nothing iritg^Uiir in that? — A. Nothing irregular. Q. Have you not heard llm my more than once to the foremen, that any man not doing his duty should he <,,x^> away and another taken in his place ? He wanted every one to do his duty ?- d, Vvm, I heard him say that several times, and I heard him say that on one special • Cv : ^ion when he dismissed a man himself. He told that man to go away, and he had on'y been there about five minutes. Mr. St. Louis told him : Now you had better go, we don't want men like you. Q. Was it not natural tor Mr. St. Louis to stay there and see if they were doing their duty ?— A. Yes. Although he was not in charge of the works from the first he had offered to give all good will. ' Q. Was it not natural for him to see that the men should do their duty ?— A. Yes. Q. You know the contract of Mr. St. Louis with the government about labour? — ^A. Yes. Q. And you know about that question of overtime? — A. Yes. Q. Under the contract passed with Mr. St. Louis, and the circumstances of the case, don't you consider that that part of the contract regarding overtime ought to cover all the evening and night work, and is not that the opinion you gave to the de- partment ?— A. According to my personal opinion I should think what night work and Sunday work, not being foreseen in the contract Q. And not being covered in the contract?— A. Not being covered in the con- tract, I should think that overtime ought to cover night work, because it is customary on government work to pay meu more for night work and Sunday work thau for day- time work. Often the time is doubled.. Q. It has been stated by witnesses here that overtime was the additional time worked by a man after his day's work ?— A. That is the meaning of it. Q. And that night work was n it overtime because it was not additional time performed by a labourer? — A. I understand that. Q. Would you not consider that, for a contractor furnishing labour, this defini- tion would not apply? Does it make any difference for a proprietor or the govern- ment, whether labour is performed by the same man who has done a day's work or by another man who commences at night ?— A. Well, that is a matter of interpre- tation. 85 nn„k?; such circumHtai.ces would you not consider that the word " overtime" ought to cover all this labour performed after the UHual day's work ?-A ThiH Ih fZii^ '^''"t*\'i^ IfthUpoiQthad not come into question, 1 nhuuid have found It very natura that tl.oy should consider night work as overt me and I never Til t7J^''"^' '* ^''^ °'' "?^'- J^"' ^*»«* P"'"^ ^^'^ "«^ ^o'"^ into qu".ti,. and many mon of ex,.enence have^'ven the opinion that it could not be cal fed overtime U. ^^ow, outBide the question of prices, in it not a fact that night work is worth ^i^,^M .P Tf "«,'?7'-'''n«. according to the detinition of wiu,eH8es?-A. Yes I should tb.nk It would be the same. A man that works after his day's work works at n,«ht It m a portion of night work. That is the practice on govern m^nt work q. I suppose It was forosoon that th«re would b.' night work ?— A Well not at first; but when Mr. St. Louis signed his last contra. ^as foreseen ' -A. I do notCow. ""'"'''* '"'^'" "^""'^ """^ '" " '' ""' '•"'"*' '""^"^ ^'^^'•time ? Q. That is your reason for saying that overtime ought to cover night work ?— A. Because it was not nrientionod, and I «hould consider it meant that, and that is why 1 returned it as being all right. ' Q. I suppose it cannot be presumed that night work would be performed by the same men or a month or so ?_A. When it is for all night. The men thai worf at night shoii' 1 be a separate gang of men. iu. ^' ^'^•^""«*' j' was not specified in the contract, did not Mr. St. Louis go further than he was bound to go? Since night work was' not mentioned, did ho not To further than his contract required by furnishing a night shift ?— A. Well lie had to furn.sh them, that was his contract. If they were rejuired he had to find them By Mr. Atwater : A..r.?\^° ^r ?u^'r :^^^^^^l' '*' '« "«' " practice always on public works of every description for the friends of u man seeking employment to use their infiuence tJ get him employed on the svorks?~A. Of course. u iuom,o lo Q. Do you see anything improper in that?— A. Not at all ft... Jt" T^ """"^ 7f' 'y^^here is it not?-A. I would do it myself if I had some one for whom I wanted to get work, and I have done so myself. I would go around and see if I could not get him employed. ^ »i"uiiu auu ♦K. ^' ^*?y««™ean to say that men were, in anyway, improperly employed on those works owing to the interference of any parties as having political influence ? — A. Jno, I do not mean to say that. fif Q- I^.o^l^"': wo'-ds, the work was not retarded, nor men employed who were not fit for their positions, from any cause of that kind ?_A. No fr. 3.1?'^ ^°" know of any cases where friends of men seeking employment tried to get them employed and were refused ?-A. I could not say That I was witness to anything of that sort, but I know that it has taken place. Q. It IS within your official knowledge ?-A. I know that if all the men who were recommended had been put on the works we would have had a couple of thou- sand men there all the time. ^ Q. Then the political interference was not actually a factor in the matter?— A hl'J"^' '^.A ®^®^'- ^ "™ ''^"y ^ naentioned political interference at all' because it does not amount to much. ' By Mr. McLeod : Q. You stated that you did not consider night work was provided for in St Louisas contract at all ?_A. No, there was no mention of it Q. There was no price for it?— A. No. Q. What was Mr. St. Louis's position on the Grand Trunk h.id0-o?_A H« ^"^-s to supply the men as required. The foremen were his foremen, they always worked Z^JT\''''i *2 ^P'^^l ^^^^''} ^® controlled them. But he wks not independent in hio control, he had to be under Mr. Papineau's orders. At the same time Mr- Papineau could, at any time, stop Mr. St. Louis in anything he did. In the mean. imi IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) V

employed — A. I am He had to > contract, ired. He , Louie for A. I think like to run . Well, he U. Gabriel He had to forks and line, some I'etty busy ' was kept Q. But still the amount of work he had to do could not compare with that of a superintendent having 30 miles of public works under his control ?— A. You must take into consideration that Mr. Kennedy wutbusy night au.l day, he had hardly time to take his meals and have a little sleep. Then he was watching the tiling very closely It had to be done with no loss of time and the works had to be properly conducted. In many cases I was a witness that accidents would h ivo hap- pened to the derricks if ho had not boon there, by people who did not know how to handle them. •' • r Q. But does it not geem to you that when these two bridges wore only one or two hundred feet apart, one superinlendenf, would have been able to oversee both works ?— A. To tell you the truth, when Mr. Kennedy told mo that he had his hands lull, 1 must say that I thought he was right. I would not like to undertake both works together, although there was not much to watch on the Grand Trunk. But there were the derricks, there was the responsibility for any accident that miijht happen in the conduct of the work. Then if the government had objected in any way, they might have ordered Mr. Kennedy to take charge. Q. Were the government aware that Mr. Kennedy was not in charge?— A My impression is that I did write to that effect. Q. Can you lay your hand on any corrospondonco of that sort?— A. I will look afier it. By Mr. Vanier : Q. You mentioned in several letters to the government that Mr Kennedy refused to take charge of the Grand Trunk bridge because he had his hands full ?— A. I must have mentioned that. Q. Is not the superintendent generally very busy every year in April on general repairs?— A. Yes, that is what I have just ctated. ' Q. When the water is taken out of the canal ? — A.. Yes. Q. Did he superintend those repairs last April ?— A. He superintended them as much as ho could. Of course he had to trust some one. Q. Had he to neglect the supervision of those repairs last spring, to your know- ledge, on account of having extra work on hand ?— A. No, I do not suppose any- thing was neglected. I know there was some work supposed to bo executed, but was not executed, put off for another year. Q. On account of the construction of the Wellington street bridges ?— A. Pro- bably it is on that account, because he was too much pushed. Q. Before this inquiry began did you hear anything about Mr. Kennedy chang- ing his appropriations ?— A. No, I did not hear that before. Q. Did you hear that the workmen employed on the canal, had been doing private work for Mr. Kennedy ?— A. I heai-d it stated by the witnesses here ;hat is all I can say about it. I think I did hear rumours about it, but 1 did not attach enough importance to the thing to remember it now. No, I can say that I was not aware of that before the question came up before the commission. By Mr. Emard : Q. I believe vou said that Mr. St. Louis had given orders to the foreman Trudel? — A. Yes, that whenever any man did not do his duty, to discharge him at once. Q. Is it not a fact that Mr. St. Louis has always told Trudel and the other foremen to take their orders from the authorities, such as Mr. Papineau and others? —A. I am aware that he actually said that. But in the mean time, I dare say that when Mr. St. Louis saw something going wrong, he would take it upon himself to direct the men, and it was so understood. He was to direct the work, he was to direct the foremen to some extent. In one instance that I mw that a man was arguing, he sent him off' the works. And when a derrick was wrong, or something of that sort, ho would say : that derrick ia not right, you should do this and do that. He would give advice, but I do not suppose that Mr. St. Louis ever took charge. 88 By Mr. Douglas : y. "a« >t roinovod conlrarv to his npHftPB 9 a rri.„ »"«»o, occasion^ but it wh« with my'SnSent U it "ore""- ^""^ '""" ^"" ^'''^*" "P "' ^^^ ij do„«, So if So w. wait«l -. liuteSngeTa'nli S'Zm .^ By Mr. Emard : By Mr. Douglas : ocmL!^°"^°"°""°"' """ "> '"I" "■« WJg« awa,.?_A. No, „„ ,he ««. .it'?ill'Il'jerotti7.tke''»dt."„°«'1^;'"'-'?^''''r'''''"°'-y^"^ .«« ,./„.,i.l. "*"" ^" '^"'^® "^ ^o^^n- I nm positive there was nothing in the wait . _,„_ ^^^ shape of ordoi-s. By Mr. Emard : of opinion. On the tirst occasion th^ hffn ^ u '''^®'" """• ^^ *"« * question Sooner or later th^ Srhad to S -kW® '"'I' '"• ''^ '«'"«^«^ ^'•«''' its place, had in ray mind. ^ ^ ^^'^^^ "'"^ °»«^«^' ""'^ that is the thought I move'd'y-t ^Uf„«:S;,;rd- 'hose of Mr. Kennedy that the bridge was do it ; of thatlU p'^Hufie "' " ""'' '"'""• ^"* '''«'•" ^''^ "« orders not ?o and nu-nlrraeS'LVa'ttTefcl^L'^rnfiLril' T^'^ri' ''^ '^«"-- «•>'« to select have done?-A. Sis mToninfon a^?/-^^ '^'"' ^^^e government could A.Af„Thno;l.if---^^^^^ 89 , ^ " Will you Bupply a may be what took place, but it in not a regular men. Perhaps ho may have applied to Mr. Turner and said lot of men, you kno\-' the men ? '' That m contract, I do not think. ..««„!?» ^1^ "'ri'il'""^ 'H'"^ " contract, tho Bystem was the same, and what was the result?— A. The result was good; the work was done. By Mr. McLeod: Q. Where was that ?— A. At St. Gabriel break. By Mr. Vanier : .t^.?'J^" you know why you were suspended ?~A. I was suspended, as I under- stood, because the works had cost too n.uch. Then I heard 3Ir. Schroiber say in his evidence that it was because I disobeyed orders. ^ Q. Did anyboly write to you about it ?— A. No. Q. You never received n written document siispondine you ?— A Oh ves 1 had a letter, Mr Schreiber gave me a letter suspenJin^^ m^c.^wuLutgW J alj ?hTr7.TPh '*"*' «» '"7««Kation was going to take place, and in consequence df that I lia»^'«"«'- ?-A. I do not know whore it is now If I can find u I will give it to you. The only thing it said was : " An inves- tigation is going to take place, and pending that investigation you are suspended." tn M?"T„rn 'T^"*"'"®*^ *Jr '"'""ii«« ««o that probably Mr. Kennedy had applied th«t M.^l^f* ^"^ Bnything to do with the works last winter y-A. My impression was that Mr Turner was conducting the work at St. Gabriel's locks; but now it seems h-om what IS said here that he did not conduct the works, but merely supplied the Q. Is that tho same Mr. Turner who tendered for supplying labour ?— A Yes sort' i::,Ti7'\ ^V''"'*°'f ^"'- '^' ™««'^»'-^' I beK, of slothing of that sort— tendered for the delivery of stono. s » Q. Did you say that he was conducting the works ?— A. That was rav imores- ^^a'.Z^V^' rr'^'^'t ^^ri^^ ^'^ ^'- «^«"n«dy. I am aware that Sf. Turner uad sonaething to do with it, but whether us a contractor or merely supplying the men, I do not know. I was under the impression that he was a contractor. By Mr. Emard : Q. Are you aware that the stone waifs on both sides, from the Grand Trunk o»u^^JT ' f«>'-.a distance of nearly 200 feet or more, wore picked by tho stone- cutters at your special orders ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Douglas : Trun?*hrl!^1l^'"\^T■• ^•''•".'ber did not give you any orders about the Grand brid e P-s«tive he never ordered me not to touch the Grand Trunk Q. Did ho say not to delay the traffic ?-A. That is another question. If he I^^IT ?^TK 7^*'" ^ '^r""'** ^T ""^^^^^ ^'™- If ^« did give an order, I did not understand it, because I never disobey orders. By Mr. McLeod : Q,,..^ ^''** '^ ****? T*®™ ^I getting men to work on the Grand Trunk brid'<'h .^J"® <;^ey ?--A. I cannot tell you from memory. Henderson's is one for lumber, and I believe Alex. Wright is another. There is quite a lot of them. I believe Mr. Spragg. ^ Q. For stonecutting for lock No. 1 ?— A. Yes, and the delivery of stone by Mr. Delorimier, was another. "^ Q. The government are withholding payment of those until they find out whether they are due or not?— A. Yea. By Mr. McLtod : Q. Do you know the amount that is being held back?— A. I could not say from memory ; I know there is a considerable sum. By Mr. Atwater : Q. Who certified the pay-lists of the men on the Grand Trunk bridge ?— A Mi- Kennedy or his timekeeper, and I certified them aftorwardb. And further deponent saith not. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 91 Mr. E. II. Paeent, already sworn, asked permission lo make the followinir statement : " * I have been told that Mr. Corbeil made a statement before the commisHion yesterday to the effect that he had told me on five or six occasions that men were taking good timber and carting it away, or something of that sort. I deny that statement positively. So far as my recollection goes ho never said anything to me about that, and I think if any one had mentioned it to me five or six times I would have remembered it. Mr. Archibald.— He further said that you had told him that Mr. Kennedy could not control the men. "^ Mr. DouocAS.— No, that you had said that Mr. Kennedy was uncontrollable Mr. Parbnt.— I do not remember having said it to Corbeil, but I did not make a secret of my ooinion. What I =eant to say was that he was under my control by order of the department but he did not look at it in that light, and did not act according to the orders of the government. There is where he was uncontrollable so far as I was concerned. By Mr. Archibald : Q. In what respect did ho act contrary to your orders ?— A. On one occasion I wrote to him and asked him to give me a report every two or three days or a week, stating the number of men employed and all that kind of thing. He told me he had no time to rtcribblo. Commisbion adjourned till two o'clock. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. E. fl. Parent, recalled. By Mr. Emard : Q. It has been established that Mr. Kennedy sent out invitations to tender for the labour. Mr. Archibald.— I object to that question, because the invitations Mr Ken- nedy sent out were invitations to tender for stoneouttei-s and stonemasons. That IS fill* Mr. Emard.— The witness will very likely say so. Mr. Archibald.— You are not to assume anything that is not justified. Mr. Emard.- Did Mr. Kennedy send out invitations to tender for labour ?— A I do not say for labour. He sent out invitations for tender. The form of these in- yitations i.* filed. I do not think it means labour, and in or 3 of my letters I .sav it iH not probable we will need any labour. I said it is probable we will need only stonecutters and masons and some skilled labour. Q. To whom did you say so?— A. In a letter I sent to Mr. Sehreiber. Q. When /—A. After the tenders were filed. K ^' ^^^T^ the invitations to tender were sent by Mr. Kennedy, were you seen by Mr. bt. Louis?— A. I do not recollect. I am sure I saw him after his tender was accepted. ♦ uvH: f-^t^^ ^^^ invitations to tender were sent by Mr. Kennedy, it has been es- tablished here that you also sent invitations to tender to some othe. parly ?— A Yo.^ there is a letter froni Mr. Sehreiber, which came and intervened. Mr. Sohreiber would not have Mr. Kennedy send invitations to tender. So when the tenders came in, Mr. Kennedy sent them to this office. I saw there were only 3 or 4, Which was not sufficient competition, and I put 3 or 4 more names whom I asked !I2 ^ wuH udviHed tliHt the Loui» ?— A. That m for tliu dolivory of the that^irnC*'"'''*'"- '-■"'«^3^^-A- Voh, ho .vhb «lwayH no. i.iod of anything q I ti.ink it in tlu, lottor of tlio .Ul, of Fob, nary which nnyn thai ?-A Y«h (2. lytlio lottorof tho (iMh of Kchiimry, Mr. KonntMlv w com met hiki boon awanlod to Mr. "' ^ ' " - .1:*'"":"^. * Htono. Q. Vtm wrolo !« lottoi- to Mr. Kennedy adviHinir him of tho fact that Mr St Lou>H H tondcr for labour was acc«,„o.l ?-X. V„h ; it^h.IuM l«, ncl a lc ,o '''• '^'* Q. Ilorc iH a letter of the 17th of February which on.Jn hh folh.w"- " I i 1h indnu- iBoo ir. I hat m \or;> likoly tho letter you refer to ?— A. Yom uof, ro « ppiemenf , .Vc. M r. hi. Loum provided the labour ?— A Yoh BuppSe.1 ZrZ"™ '" " '""'"" ^° •*"'^'''" "•' •'•« -M>"eiry of the foremen he Q. What quality of foremen were they ?-A. Kir«t claHK. O '";;;'^'";''«";'/.''"^' A '•"!««'' WHS head foreman for onoof tho bridi,'eH?-A Voh li n ' ^ "^""'^ h.H ettpac,.ty?-A. I think bo is a vorv able man. -I , ^* 1 ?/"" r.«'"e'"b^"' *•'« names of tho other foremen ?_A I knew Len«Lre al80,an. DesjarduiH, the foremen of the stonocuttors. On the WelinLSm bSe I know hem less, because 1 ma.io it a point to be ,nore <.n the GrlJ Tn.nk br dtS cu.t4.]!;^^r;;;;.;!;3-Sto^^r;c^■-'• ''''' "^"'"^•' '''- '-'^^ recoiSirzi^ixlxss^litjtimStr^i^rf;^^ y. It was not very easy to do that work ?— A. No H. 1 here was a f,'ood many mon employe«'o«8"nwhythe pay-Iibts were made Boparafe for the Grand Jf oath wii ?ii7 Y^^ "'" ^° "PP'y ^'^^ appropriation^and Hnd out the cost Q. The same with recrard to lock No 1 ntnna? a t., .u t . j:o.. specially for lock N?. 1 which was'^a'-spectrap^ropr^tit' ^T^ tTS" should 9;j Q. Rvon ifinHtiiiotionH woro^iven, they would not bt. prooiHo nn work than the (Jraiid Trunk Thoy ha.J tl.oir proparalory or fal^o work all on hand, ami well orijanizod so aH to aiioW an oconomu-al imxlo of building, whilni on thotJrand Trunk thoy w.mo cortainly labouring iindor vory dilHcult ciroumHtances. Thoy nad no inclino.) piano an abovo no pIatt()rmH oxcopt OHO, thoy had fow dorriokH, and had not at all tho room thoy had on I ho Curran brid«o. Cortainly, thoro wan a groat .leal of dotlerom-o between tho taoililiOH lor working on tho Oiirran bridge and on tho (Jrand Trunk Con- Midoringall that, although thoio wuh a gocxl deal Iohh inaHonry to do on the (Jrand Irunk, that wan cmo ot that ioo Itroko oil" ami camo down. q. And that iooha't to bo picked and oairiod away ?— A. Yo« ; and thoy ha: By Mr. Atwater : Q. 1 underntood you to say that you lecoramedetl the contract Ibr labour?— A. iniw^J""'"'^*'''/'**® "*"'">"'"'■ •e'wo'" for lecommonding the emplovment of IhermrJiror"^*''"'"'"'''-^- '^''"^ "" «'^"" ■" two fetter. tha?afel!ofore t.ii,^'^' W'''r"l''°'"'«,':®P*"f*^»»«"»?-A. The ground that I took was the risk of Hr ken, and tl.e probability that there would be a ^'ood many other woTks go ,„ on dunng the winter, and that t would be «afer lor th. Kovernment to binll a?on trac or under penalty to oblige him to ftiminh the labSur required for ho wo?k Another reason was that a contractor iH far better posted to slpply men anTthe proper k.nd of men, since he always hLs on hand a number cf men that ho knows more especially foremen. For these reasons I thought it would be safer to irivr^ con ract or the supplv of labour. Moreover I thought it was better, L a rule^ f wS could Hnd a very good contractor, to employ the lafour that way ' in th?"n,l!!nfrr T,'"' "*"* *''° "'"'■'' ^-^- 7«" ' '* ^o"''^ have-'been a better mode a?.«„nf^hr ^f- The government generally take the lowest bidder, although they are not obliged to do so, and if the contract had fallen into the hands of a weak con^ Z&on" """"' ^^^ '^" ^"''' ^"""* ""' ^"^^ ^'"^ ^"'''''^^ ♦«'• tt opening of pericS-iJUiclfitStrd^tl-Ai: ''' '''' '''' "''••'^ •'^ -"*-''' *" '^^ »K»n^' ^° ^°" ''"".'^ that 8 contractor was more likely to get good men around him than a government would be ?-A. I think so, he knows thenf better. ♦« «,^i f^"*^/''« "«". as some witnesses have stated, prefer to work for a contractor mer?^l^' Yes. «°"^''"'"^"'' because they are moi^o likely to get steady enip?oy- Q. Will you look at this letter of the 10th January and say if that is th« I«tf«.. you wrote to the department ?-A. Yes. It re^s as iJibws :^ ® *" "January 10th, 1893, " Lachine Canal. ,« Z^l^^ SiR,--I beg to submit to your consideration an abstract of tenders sent maHlrn-'^^nffK ^"^ the supply of labour required for the construction of the masonry pier o he now Wellington bridge, etc. Although the tenders show eight tems. It IS most likely that only stone-cutters and masons will be called for as if is the intention to furnish our own labourei-s, derricks and teams This mSe of fS?^.''*''^"' ^"^^r ^y,<^V''^<^^OTs,rov Work which has to be done%dttn a mom«it ™t'K" «°"«''^«''«d the safest and avoids the risk of strikes at a ciiUca* rnoment, as these men are almost constantly employed by the contractors and are ?ear ZnH^ ''^ ''''"ll l"*^ °" t* ^t''^' ^^^'ohediy those who employ them the ♦^K«lnL ?; -. ' '''" h ^««°,.bythe within abstract, Mr. Emmanuel St. Louis is Jor« rln *'"'*h?k'' "°^ '' * reliable aud reapn„«ible contractor; and I vvould there- fore recommend the acceptance of his offer. •'E. H. PARENT." 97 but only ii. a low wonl« '^"'''""' """"'"n «<> tho namo Hubjoct only^f];"'";^;''^''"''^'-^- ' ^hink boro.e.or ..erhapn aft„nvanl» ; but it U contractor ?-A. Ych, ifwus 'it Iho limo »>y "o-'f-ot with a roH,H,n«il,lu t».ey would havo b' « "■""•"'•t'^- thaJ r ;-:& -'"^''"•^ '^rt^«bt^^iLi::? ii:Tr-^ii:,£;:;s- pay 1 tit:;;.i:;? ^^rr,.;?;.:s'tez,:^' tX"" f'^r '-^ - only oncoa,nonth-ut loa.t that Ih Iny imprrion ' ^•°""-'«''<"' ^vhs paid haw h,,pno„«d ;,n iho L»oh ,„ c«n«" ihi C™"L, ' '"'.T"':""" «»'■•'■»">• Umt do a?„S:r ;r?., 3ki ,rur.' ir„ ,"inT"- "'■™ " '- — ^ - o ?t" "'""'""".•'"■,''•" 'ho Wilg«» won. builiV-A lew., thatSa.;^{{r.Q;:;a;r;r:'Tj^^^^^ them pernonally ' ""^'^"^'""^ ^''«'" ^^ be all ronponsible men. I did not k.uni Q. But they wore people of good reputation ?-A. Yes y. And competent to Huppjp labour ?— A Pnmn«»»^T»^ i .. A. Yo8. I do not know Mr Turn«. mn^K n "°r" "LO'^'^ftor for labour ?- sponsible contracto.- "" '"""''• P"«onally, but I understand ho i« a .-e- A. yI."^' ^"' '^'*' '"^"^^"^'^ ^'■«™ ^''^ department for similar works, has he not ?- Mr. S^; Si?r^^:^Utrt:ntr^ "' ""'■ '^- ^'^"'^ ^-^- Y-' ^»>«y were above, was tt foweSrr Y^r '•«^«'"'-"''«'^ ^ho acceptance of his tender was because he Q. Simply because his tender' was the lowest? A rZ™^"'"^ the acceptance. Q. Tl.e.e was no other motive ?"i'NroSl^m1,Z'^^^^ ^'' ''« ^«"-^- cont-tt^so^f^rT,^;- ctrmL'Sr ^tf r" we ^h'^ "'^"^ ^«'"« ^i^P'^^ ^'^ Februar>?_A. I tiink. perE I told hYi^ ' Xl-y ^""'' """ °^'''' ^^'^ that;he^r„t^r::tr^:bC'i;K,r^L^r ^n- ^^--dy the fact the first time I met Mr. Kennedy I told him'. Tut'w Jen TcaTnot Z''''' w- Q. Was it not a short time after your recommendation to the department to d^ystftSr ^ contract ?-.A. YeH, it must have been not more than a few Q. I want to know whether Mr. Kennedy complained to you at the time or made anyobjection to employing labour by contract?-A. Well, if I remember cor- rectly, there was a little discut-sion about it, some little romaiks. I believe there wae, but I am not sure. Q. Because he has condemned the system here, I want to know whether he put himself on record about it in any way ?-A. I could not say positively what he tSld "*' rC «r "" ®'* ^® "np'-ession that he was against the system Q Was that before or after the contract hud been awarded ?--A. It must have been afterwards, because I did not speak to him about that before Q. Mr. Kennedy stated here that the result of this contract was, if I understood him rightly, that five men were employed where three would have been sufficient. What 18 your idea of that?-A. Well, that may be correct in this way, that Ihev were crowded to some extent. j, ^'•a^' i.ue^ Q. What I mean is this: Was the fact that the labour was employed bv contract, responsible for crowding ?-A. Oh. no, becaise if it had been done bv the government directly, it would have been the same thing, or very nearlv ti.e.e would have been a crowd of men there co do the work ao3 finish it in time Q Did you here Mr. Weir's evidence given here on Saturday with regard to the nature of this work, that he would expect to have a large percentage of surplus men who were not actually employed, but whom he would have to pav?-A 1 did not hear that. *^ "^ *. ^ wiu Q. Well, the fact that the work had to be done in such a short period and under such circumstances would necessitate the retention on the works of a good manv more men than could actually be employed at any particular moment, would it not? — A. Yes, that is my opinion. iU. 5: ??t! ^/"^^"^ yeste.day, I think in answer to Mr. Emard, that you considered the work that was actually done on the G,and Trunk bridge, was very nearly equal to that done on the Wellington bridge ?-A. Yes, t.mt is my impression, Ahourd rd^^irg'SifttSw^o^k'- ^^~P-'"^ ^erelyLmPasonry'andpi::^ Q. Theie was u good deal more cribwork to be removed on the Grand Trunk end than on the Wellington bridge end ?-.A. Fully twice as much at least Q. Now. as an engineer, can you tell us whether the masonry would be any r.rtTw'n-''".*''"?-^"'^^'""'' '^■'^^:" for a railway bridge, than it needed to be on the Wellington bridge as a traffic bridge ?-A. Yes, the masonry should be Q. Would it cost more ?— A. It would cost a little more Q. About what percentage more, should you say?- A. I suppose from guess work. It might cost 5 per cent more. ^ ^ Q. Was the masonry of those bridges well done ?— A. Yes, very good masonry. By Mr, Archibald : I .. ^: Ki*" '^* I'''"'* Mr. Parent's letters to Mr. Desbarats are filed ?-A. I sent no letter to Mr. Desbarats. On what occasion do you refer to ? Q. I see several letters here to Mr. Desbarats. I see on page 823 of the letter book, a letter from Mr. Parent to Mr. Desbarats. By Mr. McLeod; Q. Then you ^id Bend letters ?_A. I sent one when Mr. Kennedy sent his com- plaint; I referred that to Mr. Desbarats. uiovuui By Mr. Archibald : bo 3'_J^^^ ^^ ^■^^ ^®"** '** Mr. Desbarats, which I find on page 823 of the letter t must have 99 lette:i'?cd Jed'r^ t^ Slgn^ee^'ri^n^^ ^^'"* '"'"'""^'^'^ ^'^'^^^ «^ ^^ree masonry of the piers and abutrae. Js for the W^r ?""^"'o° ^'th rebuilding the over the Lachine canal. Pursuant to th« r«n, f l!^^*"" "^''^^^ ^"'^ ''"i'^ay bridges prepare with the least Po:h" e deliy the Xns o tr'L'""'"'"^' ^Z ^'" P'«^« inclose a copy of specifications fnrthc. Ifl ^ • *A® """sonry referred to. I also theseTetTe'rs KSLiidTo"' '''' '"""'*'-^' ^^'^^ ''-^- ^hat is my letter transmitting loc.|opclry:^^i '^^^t ^ch^gVoVSlK^^^^^^^ -- ^or for thedeKiVof srneVe;;i"rSToS ^'"--«' St. Louis Trunk bridge Jnd the WeCn S4et^ '''^ abutments of the Grand of lock No. 1 has been accoS n„mri,, k ^ '. '^ l*).® '^"ewal of the old masonrv «2.50. Mr. St. I^uTs hJ^ZntqueS'toTuf h7m' Iff'' ^'' '''''' ^'^^'^ = ^ackin^^ so far as concerns the delivery ofTheston« E J'™'**''^ '" .^-^^'nunication with vou has been awarded to him " ^ ""*^ ^''^ *" ^'""^'"^ ^f the contract which -^^'^"^n^'^^^^^^^^^ When I said there appointment. * ^^soarats, I thought you referred to his instant, has expressed the o^p^nion Jha't the o.elr-^'"""!.' '" ". '^"^'^ d*t«1 ^^^ ^th the Wellington bridge so far as JeJLfds th!^! k • "^ ''"'^ ''""'^"^^ °^' '''^ ^''^'k^ on office here, without extra cost In^snite of mv oh"*"'.?"''' ''"?''* *^ ^' ^«"« by the showing the importance of rLinh,?vnm.^^J*''^'?"'' ""^ ^''^ reasons given pleted,1t has be^en decided trath'loff^hTcrhl'dl'TS""'*' '^' ^^''^ '««"«>■ ent time must be done directly bv the perTonll o? mv ^ f?*^ Vl""^ *« ^^^ ?«•««- inform you that at the end of the present month 1^^^ ^^^- therefore, I regret to will be no longer required." ^ ^ ^''"'" '®''^'*''^« "" »-««'Jent engineer That is your letter. % ilfr. Archibald: OrJ-SjriATvZ^^^^^^^ Sr-el ^^ '^^^™? timekeeper on the he spoke to me about it. on what occasCnTcould not exac'tlv't^el '''r""' ^"" '^^ ''' him, and he was appointed by Mr St Louis exactly tell. I recommended hi™ LKtr„rdi„rkt/hl;h„f.x'r-*' "«""• "■ - ".. e.p,„,.d (i. He was already a salaried officer in Vour d«n«,fm«>„* 9 a ,. officer that has a salary from the governmem cr/ot fct'o saiTrtes.^ ««' ""^ «" -By iWr. Emard: By Mr. Archibald: ^ canal ?— A. Yes. ^«nueay as an employee of the government on the 7j 100 By Mr. Atwater . ploy?o oHhe^oVr^^^^ '"'' '^' ^'^° Kovornment?-A. Ho waB a permanent cm-' By Mr. Emard : no Halaiy. ^ ^''®" «'"Pl"y«d by tl.o governmont he would have had By Mr. Archibald : BeandrynorMTouimeT ^n,'-,„^^°"S''''" ^y"« « l""o-l">opor. I did not know Mr he hndUisi '' ^''' ""'^ ""•^ ^ '^"«^^' ^"« Mr. Coughlin, and 1 know that Q. But you know Villoneuvo, and you knew he had ansistanlR ?-A Yah sign ^tho ^ijS fo fhe'^n^^ 1 T^"'? f *f '"« ''''" ^'"'^ ^' "«'''' '- ^'^ "uty to bHdgoJLrYos ""' ^'""^ ^'■"'«« "«^'*'" "« to the Wellington Hl^-eet Oh. tJtr;arr7Lt"^ boing^.ro^.^ry'kX, did you ?-A. intondent of the S l" ntl'^o e deV '' ^Kl " Tl rw^^^ 'Z f-^'"1 '^ ^'" «"PT bo under his control tontioi. iiio whole timo-kooping would —A. Yes. "iieresi in getting Villenouvo appointed time-keoper ? that?ou V^eToMr KrnS with i'lfew'Af'""'"!'?'"^ ,"''« ""^ ^"'"^ -" ^0"^ them if he chose. I had some verbal oonv« 7^^'^ have discharged the whole of told him although we did norexneit himt^I'^ 'i "" '* ^Z' ^^^""ody i" which I u E! i;^ ^- - paH-vn^3£;'Si^?iS-r-/St SSeS tS A. iLft'trt Ume!™' "'^" ^^'"^'•'^ commenced on the Grand Trunk bridge ?- BO, k?„db'gat'rh?bt:fe lli:^^^^^^ ^^^"•^' '"^'^""Sh he was not obliged to do theGranJKunkbridge1-fTsZ;ZTA??. 5, T ' •'^'^T u'" ^''^ govetment o2 to do as a contractor on the to.ks Sred-weil h« h" 5'' "/''^^"^'l ''" '^^^ "^^'^'"X '' "rS t'hitThe^^^"^ ^^ f.^''^ ~ cant -««-ted iows?'-\vJ:ine'Airrtht.* xrrwiitr d^^ ^'" ^'^^' ^'^'•^^ '^" -«^« - ^«'- apart from the derricks wL-h the contrlnLJir^ ^'^"' ."i^«"li«" 'o the fact that band fo, -i™, we .....u^rt'i?" -"^ r;„r.';7An;^r„r;:z^rr,".s 101 •rmanont om- JiiHon he had iild havohad I for the pnr- IW. Mr. Yillo- know Mr. 1 know that YeH. his duty to igton street lim lo sign I you ?— A. y the super- spiiig would ipcrs in the van not my irged them, ne-keoper ? well done ?— A. No; le-keeping. ^•-list? — A. no-keepers iMidered all le whole of in which I ition of the kod him if fou do not isfied that bridge ? — iged to do ernient on d nothing suggested ■ote as fol- a fact that snough on •liances to tools'?;, Z^:L'hiiz "::ziz ":st''\ " 'r"'^'""« ^'■•^ <'""^-^^<"' ^i ti. the booms and derrirH?" i)ii vou islmnlf^ "Vl^ ';""'"*' '*""!"'' °"''' ''''"^■"'«. Pi^^H, wore necossary to enable MrT S,Sir(„ !«, *"1 ' vH'^''? '''"^ "" ^''"'*« '""^"rials 8ome hole with his domclfs? ^* '"*" ^ ^^"'* ''^ '« P»" ^'»"" "P ""t of have dmn "„7hi7p'^.liS'n '" j"t ifas b^een'^ '^ ^""^^7% ''^ ^'^'^^ '"•^-- "« --'«t t...od.^aeontLtr^el!.:^^^— ^^^ Louis will be held roKponsible fh. .Us . l" Z"^ Ct'""''' I ^ r^T' '7' " '''^^'^ of the subject ?-A. /os, but it was norild propirly ""^^ •''"'•'""" y""'' ''^""^ direction "-undo M^ ParontVdi^?eS -"'"^ "' '". '''^ '""'.'^^ ''^° «^''«' ""'l^'' ""J Mr. MoLeod.— Why did he not control it ? Mr FMlnr'SlT^^*'^."^''"''^ *?" ""T''^^ '^' ? That is tho question. Imve done i" •~^'"'"'^' ^' ^"« '" ^'^^ ^'"P'^^ «f ^he government, he ought to Mr ABcmBA7?%T«'^ TT ^" «*^" ^''^ ^^^' ^' ^ad too much to do. It 102 M '^i^Z^tooZZT^^^^^^ t^e Grand Trunk bndge bility whatever upon the G.and7mnk hHHol w '"'"? ^^T^^ ^^^ ""^ vesponk pay-list, and he took mXZL^Llhollhfl"'^ '""^^ '^^' ^^ ""^* «'g" *»>« -hcdid not do it right, then he hL ffot to snZ uT °TT'"^ ''^ ^° ^^''^^i ""'i «' Mr' ABomBALD H« r H^^ f^^ ''*P'f *** *^«^ '«"er of Mr. Parent's ? counf tbe^rn';rn^t''a:d"fn 'thXTfm^'sf Jo' -»*. Cou«hlin and Gienny to tho^pracUca. reply i .ade. He^t^i'dTh:? ^£ ^!^:^^S^o^;;:^ wantf;?''"'^''"-^'' '^^ ««"^ ^«"g»^''" to get men. and see what men were by gKr^e^ii^s^^he^ S'^a^n^r-^ '^^'"- ^« «^«^°'^ ^^« •«^^- Mr. McLEOD.-He only beyed them in part Mr. ARCHiBALD.-He obeyed it as he understood it certified byTerprn^Tbfe^fflcrals t'e'^"'" " ^""•'«'^"«^' ^'^^^ g«* '^^ r«tu.ns in, as Bupednl^nrnV' hT'^ld" Wg^^^^^^^^^ have no business upon the work the evidence is viry clear that as a Z^fiJr /"' u i^" *?'" ""^ ^^^^ '« concerned, wer..„ppMod Ud„ Ibi. eontr3!!A WelT they ;r„Tal'l'S''f J' I'" they were not good they were sunt away "°"' ""^ «""» "Ot al. good; but when ^...Vat^T-A^'?^ X;',,;'" '■^■"■"^ -^ "»«'«' <"» »"" 'he g«Ki ones oo^pjoiKirASt" ^„^:iirl^'i?I»X3:e''^ '-' '"-- ''- '-» ^ jjQ. i>othe department did not aot wthout consuEg' you in the matter?- By Mr. Archibald : a>, a?yoT"nVemSuT„ oSS"?' iTi„'"""^'"« '»."•<' ol«"i«oatlon .rrhed .einen^ttowhatyreuppoeTw 'the^SirLfT '" '«"'°.8 "■« P»7-""» ™h- tweenM,..Sl.I^oiaa„dTh?deS.ientftOtTaw^ A ^Ef"'" ?•"'•'»' ""» ^ the p.y.,i,t. „e„ m.de out ir^oZT^^'Ltl^LZt^^-^^l V^t^^ ai«e|it«ir„^r"<> 103 runk bridge my responsi- lunt sign the that; and if )t Buffer for B? I Glenny to ist. That is itrolling the men were 3d the letter > returns in, on the work 1 concerned, it or wrong the Gi-and it it to him e paid for A.. Yes. for labour gram, is it ilways and verago for s those he good men but when good ones 1, that the matter? — •n arrived ■lists 8ub- l into be- P" opinion, es, I sup- Bre to be res. t see any ber. Do 1 u ^'' E?**«° — -^^"^ l^',™ '<" he is not aware that Mr. St. Louis claimed that all the iJ!°rrtv^t T f'^'"'«.''*"g,^«'« skilled labourers, and Mr. Schreiber would ioi agree to that interpretation of the contract. By Mr. Archibald : • Q. Mr St. Louis claimed that all the labour was to be skilled labour ?— A. I am aware that is what Mr. St. Louis claimed. Q. Who first objected to that course ?— A. I think it was myself I know I was averse to that, because it was not fair to call all the labourers pick and shovel men. I took no action, but it waa taken in Ottawa. aia« ^\P° ^T ^1u^ ^•^^^ position Mr. Kennedy took upon that ?— A. He objected also More than that, I remember Mr. Kennedy, when I was in his office-and there old hTm Z/'^K 1 '^"'« difficulty together-he had put down his men at «U5 f told him that tha would not do, I said : Mr. St. Louis has a contract, and outside the men you employ on your Btaff,you are obliged to give those men the priceS that ult" W«S r'«.iH '" ^'' ""Tr''- ^" '"''^ **>*' *>« d'^ "«t ''"^^ t« change his paj- Well, I said, you will have to do it, you cannot help it. b v y Q. He had them down at $1.25 ?— A. Yes. By Mr. McLeod : Q. To what did he change them then ?— A. To $1.50. By Mr. Archibald ; i'ettheXthlt^^'^*"'*''''"'^''''"* '"*° '*'''^" ^"^ «1.25?-A. He said he could thnf%.Y'L^^ *'''''•'!? ^^^^ Tm? T,* P'-o^'ded for at all by Mr. St. Louis's contract, that that only provided for skilled labour ?-A. Well, he may have said that I do not recollect. Very likely he said something like that. ' By Mr. Douglas : fnr rSjoi^^T" K "f ^"^ ^f' ?«°°«'^y'* ^^^'>'y> ^^ ^ad nothing to do with the contract for prices he had merely to obey your orders, had he not?— A. Yes Mr. Bmabd.— But he claimed that he had. Mr Archibald.— He claimed that these men were not under Mr. St. Louis's contract, that they were not skilled labour. By Mr. Emard : Q. Is it not a fact that after having discussed the matter with Mr. St. Louis thmfl;fi?„".M'"l.*'V'''® other conclusion, and you reported to Ottawa that you thought that Mr St. Louis was right in his interpretation with regard to skilled labourei-8 ?-A. No, I could not have said that all the men on the works, working with pick and shovel, could be classified as skilled labour ^ r«nt f h„r V''" °*'^ -nP^'.^ u** ^''- Schreiber that you thought his pretension was cor- rect that all were skilled labourers, each in his special branch of work ?-A The re- port 18 there. I am surprised to hear you say that. By Mr. Atwater : ^^,^^\}{^^''^^°°^^''^''o^o{ilr.Lon\syrerecoiTect, the result of the compromise ought to have been a saving of 36 cents on each man, each good labourer ?— A Yes. By Mr. Emard: shovS' m«n%rRrt **""' "i,'''* VV^ T" '^"'«'' ' *^« P"^« «"o^«d to the pick and shovel men of $1.50, was allowed after this question had been raised and the matter had been discussed with Mr. Schreiber ?— A Yes 104 By Mr, Atwater : labour, «1.50. ^' '" "'^P'a^ation of my letter, fikillod labour, 81.85; good ^ram did notcontai^n the woTn.^Sk „ fd%ht/e?m^^^^^^ ^^e letter was that the teL: A. Yes. It is easy to tind out when tL «»♦? ^" whereas the letter did ?- gram also. •" °"'' '^''«" t*^« 'e«e'- was received, and the date of the tele- as yo?; rT^o^.xZ\Z:JZT7£r '''''T ^'« ^^'^'^'-^^ ^'^""t the same time dayafter,Iamnotpitive ^'^«"^ ^^e same time; whether the day bofoiVo. the gove?„Pa"srufrlr^^^^^ f-t intention was that the &rand Trunk people wore to build ,Swn'wastl'?"^r"Y'""'''^" ''"'^' '^^'^ ^''« the >?elSgfo:i:r!t'?-A '^";; «-'' ''^^ ^^- ^--^V - tJS put in charge of nedyL^^^^^^ il'rhre^T,t^'(ird ¥'^"^ r rt ^-e„ to Mr. Ken- c,ded that the government should buM , ha br^i"? I"", ^'''^^' ^^«" '"^ "'"^ *^«- ter that you have just read. ^® '~~^- ^' '^ contained in my let- rate, I ^aid, you can exercise a m- .,i.f ^L *"'^,'"e that ho was very busy At anv do the bost4 can. MrCpinLu wrtTr?/A""''"°''?"'^ for the'^balaL wo S doing his best to help us aloEg ^^ '*'^'«' ""^ ^ ^«« there, and ilv. St. Louis was And further deponent eaith not. The commission then adjourned. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 105 Edward Kennedy, on being duly sworn, deposed an followH :- By Mr. Vanier : Novo"?-: ^"^ ^°" ''"■ """^ *° '^^ «P«^'""^ «PP«'nted overseer on those workH ?_A. Q. Did you ever approach anybo.iy to that effect ?_A Never O Sid IZ «V?. .^"r" ''' ^P«"'^ ^« ^'- 'r'-"d««" about it ?-A. I did n IV . I «. '' ''"" *° ''PP"'"* 3^"» ?-A. No, sir. * y. Uid he offer to appoint you ?— A. He did. y. Do you know if anybody recommended you over there ?-A No «h. 8' SL" ."^.V?'" '^^'"'^ "•^""t »^ either?-A. I did ' '"• in o!?awM'o^'sk ToV'rio^iid afcLTth^" ^ struclionofthenewbridgr ^^'^^Pt the appointment of overseer for the con- it ^^^:^^1}^SZ^ ^«. ^ ^i<' not. O !»,," """""'""l til"' »« a kind of oMra work foi- you ?_A Y6. work waM with Mr. Beemer experience I had in that kind of from'^lsJa tolsS^'^lu":;^' ' *''""' '''' '^''^"^ ^'^'^ ^^^ ^ *- -V-- and a half -A.1 NoTembris'r' ^''" "^'P''"'''^ '" ^'^ P''^'^'"" ^'^^ «««»P'<^d «" the canal ^ for atuXee yeZ tiZSlS:i;t'f' ^^- { ^^ '" the grocery business business for the^tirstV^^J.^Vh^eVl'^^Vn't^ JTrnVSer"^^'^ '°^'^' "^^"" ^''^ siderable experience before 1885 and since ^"""^ me r— A. No; I had con- -A.Vd?/'- f™''°»"P''»y»» anyrewon, for making ,hi» spocialappointment? and InrrYw^kit'TZ'^atrirll"'!-' '' i"".™' 'J"" "' '""«i "7 «yle .nnnini. ,«ch a work *'Tben n. LSInf- . 7° I"" ih^glil I had the abHity of it completed b^he let of Mav^fE^wST.'' t*^ S' ''''""'•'" °''<'''' •» k'™ deia;;b?;2t™Tbe^°rgi?/*'o„Z'cr:„d'^tif r"/'?-™ »^"' "■' "»-' kind f-A. I think he did* T.rno" I," u^ "Jre ^ '°'' '°"''"'*' ""'^ """i" "f """ to ..2Vor°a:r?i:i'"ia1i''foWe''i,°e'kl'3e?± TTr?' 'Vl'TS '-'''>" view with Mr Tiudeau T ^hnn„v^ w 1 ?? ^ • ' 4t the time I had the nter- have the work g ven out by co^ ^ and onf., TfT^^'.^ '" ^'^" ^'' tenders and too short. S^«"°'i^ ''yco" - " and completed at the time; the time was ^^^t'ioF^Ttle:;:Jer4^^^^^ ^-"'^^«- -^-taken to do would undertake anvth'ngfrmonly^''' '^''^ contractors in Canada that Q. Could they tinieh it ?— A. I do not know. on and 106 189ii?_A. Lock No. 1 it C6te St PauH «"P"rv.H« Hueh works in April, S' mu"""^; ^^''''''' °"® ''" >'"" moan? S- ^ no wall thutwuH built by Mr. Boomer lit Cfim St Pn.,l9 * mu ^ «!one in 1892; that wa8 done before I went U.ere * ^'"'* '^'*' "°' iHuppliedallthe2«oZteite7m^^^^^^^^ «" *!>« ^''J^^' Lae^^.^/p^S;S"^^ on the 2^5'SsKtSS^ centre roBtpier^that the Btationarybr'-^"""--:-'^^^^' ^'^"^ ^'^ -""*i««'^ ^^"^ ^he v&s canted ; the bridge was in d; and in the spring time wo had . > ou wore euccosHful there ?■— A Yes Q. At what time did Mr. Desbarate arrive on the works? A T *u- u ^ KsirotTopti^r^^' ^" ^^""-^*«" -'^^ ^^« we^L;torJ7d^e ura£ doing^^h^gHTtrHt'S?!::!:"!!!;.^^^''^' ""'''''' ^^P^^^*^-' ^^'^-g -oaauremente or Q. Did he come in September with any sketches or plans ?-A. on plan I never saw a Q. Under whose direction ?— A. My own -A.V'fLTor""**^°"'"' ''""^^'"^ «"'^ «^«'»«'^« charge of everything? n n-H S'" K®"^**'"*" do anything in that line ?-A. Not that I saw O H« hS nS "'■"/ T™ **" ''"'•^ anything abont the woSf to be done ?-A No Q. He did not Heem to know anything ?-A No, sir. °' Q. Could you explain that '('-A. In what way ? a n-T., *^ ^T ^"•^ *"»' ^ ^•'i yo» »neet him very often ?-A I did ^ Q- g'd be «peak (o you about these works ?-A. Ue did not kt?7hat yoTmet' '"* ''"* '^ ""'' "Ot know anything about it ?-A. I do 10 lUHt two I thoro an f revetment «' bim in Ottawa. Q. Did he help you to get that appointment ?-A. No SJ. Vid you have any letter appointing you ?— A N^o Q NeC'^hair Z^^°F!~^- ^°"""?fj" ^^"""K except from Mr. Parent, never:' "^ ""^ telegrams to that effect ?-A. "Prom the department, Q. Or anybody in Ottawa ?— A. Never. (ReJds tl tteiO 'i>om\T« I'' ^'T' ""■"'" ^u""' ^'"'^'^ November 28th, 1892. tVeTeliminary wlrk Pa I dr*"'"'^'" ^'' *''* '^*^'" ^'^^ ''^g^" ^ «'«'»»-« raean\Temerr' ^""' *"''''""'' '" helping you at the time ?-A. Wh«t do you assiste^ep:=;L^:r^ Who we. immediate gpS^^^^^^^^ S^ pTretrpTtlh^r/n^t &?oVPoY;'rtht*'?^rf r ^'^"^ ''-' ^^"^ ^«««^^^"^ " Did^^Vu^^eTmoTti^L- P«r«?; t!^^?? ^*'" ^''Pl'i'" o*''?* '^« ""O^ble was ? Were you really asked bv Mr IZIV^CST-T Yes V^""'"' P*^-"^***'^ ^'•^'^- -^ o^^ w4S than^th^ey 108 m. labourers wuh the price UKrood to 1 «ot that infonnatfloii from Mr. Knt ''«?«'•♦•"«"* and Mr. St. Louis ?_A ti. Do you call that a hicher rato fhnn nr,. q» t ■ w.. «r™l,Ko° " ot'l^"" »'■'■""«'"' '" ""»"« »«»»'*"« to U,e contra.. J_A I. engineer. ' ° '""'"'" "<"" "'« instruction, from the euperintonUing . „| ^°^"«>"»™-'S:ri"e'°„?ir,rrT„z ve.. ell that a higher rate that Mr. sfLo ,i» wa Ztlf,. , ^f'".""?'' ^''""'•I YO" »«" O W,.ii .!f 1' 1 .'"" '»io iio was entitled to "" y. yVoII, at what price did Mr. Parent ask vou tn n,.f iU toputthemonatanviate cxoenHnthnrf ^^T ™®" on?-, A. He '6 paid so much • ' P " *''*' ^*'**°'" *^^ '"«t'-uctions that Mr. never asked I'no to ^„. ..,„,„ on a at. Louis ,H to be paid so much. -" «-"•<- lur. i".t tit I's ztrm. iz^^t 'r s'7^ t't'™"! "■°"' «'■■ p--' •» what wore they receivinff?_A'^^o .how ihlf..,/' "■" "'"J' ""'•« roceiving ; Uj-nthe, «., r.ceM„g.wo wlrX-nlJ'^e'n^Tl.^TLrkrLr .^^tt^ 'l"o|h;Mr.S.eS.°Tet'tl;r„r''i:..'r',;^?ior "» ~'-' '"'"-A. I knew that prepare the work at the "^^^^'^^r^i^'^^ ">" "» 'M enahle net eorrespondence. Now n Ler 7,? il, *° 'Vl-'"? 'I"" '"iter frojneej an,l the' objected to in the la«V™™h of mvtrTjl,"' *''■ Sohrolber in hi, cvi"e„e,! »l.o.w, I want to ..plain -^",'1 1 thouU" rwT^;i!."tre°m!n'*''''' " ""' " "'"« "^ (W-^i^l'ZtSrTT^.rj'''''''^^^^^ to Parent ,-A coption to a. bVrai.lMo'Sc'I'brXV'llSiTtfaf ""'• f -»'°' " "'"t pabhc work., I wa. in the position of a oontTkcllr ,1 ,1. '"™.'*»« «» 'be rales of object to my foiemon and tliotata to th^^„j ?'„','' "'" 'esident engineer could give then, in'.lructiou. conlra?rto mineltl,?' ,^'"5' ""«" •'"-- -^""lido and they obeyed his ln.tnietion. inete^ S' ml„. r Ir. ''""'>""e'> 'bcm immcd ately if «ny i|.formation fro.a that or they hidT/en hil''"' "°f.P'°™' '"» ™"lieitfng were on the Wellingion br dse work>» wo,.« r.^^\""'' 7''7"'^"">, »" me men that b.m Bome fictitin.w .* — ... _A- "^"".V? ^^l^ not honest, they might probably eive «at kind, that I should eee beforf tTey lent I Wfla nai>f<^n«)r. :.,,.. -/J- j ■ . . •' h:m .ome fietiiioT ^f^ortroAorthrn "7?h"? were Kivon to the engS^^eer: TheSe ^ilJu JIT"' '""'/ 'T^^ ^«« before ttey this last paragraph as overseer of the JoUsfthinniPf''^''"-^^"^^''^*^'^ *"^'-iii"g Mi iJesbarats or to any resident PntiinU t' .V ^ ^^^^ ""J' iBformation given to the contractor. I d^n^ot ?ffk hS^ ?-- '^''™' *" '^' '''''"''^' ^'^'''^ ^' foreman or any man that warundprfkf* •''? T*" '"«»« •"«f'»»ce gone to any him without fl, St consultingTh^ Buper[ntend3TnH -f f ' """^ «'"«" instructions tJ «nd gave them inst.uctionf withou t S." t ™ ,*'"" *'^ ^' '*" *'''^ '^''"^ ''^ ^^''^ thoy ought to ignore me. consulting the contractor, I should say that 100 ;e iifjrcod to II from Mr. •?— A. I do ot?— A. It i.. I do Dot ith Mr. St. irintonding -A. Ye8. d you Mtill ho rate ho i?— A. He ti8 that Mr. Parent to •oceiving; igher rate as getting new that t and his iirent for ■ou as lied from his bio me to -A. Yes; ami the JviiJonce, liitio too nt ?— A. took ex- rules of or could i-do and iately if eliciting nen that bly give )re they writing ?iven to isolf or i to any tions to to them lay that irivA^hnmnrr "«"«' pructice for engineers or asHiHtuLts to «., to foromon and give thorn ordors, oven when tho contractor in chief is not there ?--A Wh«n 1« ZtVni r*'"""' ^'ri """'• '}"' "^'"'^ ""'^ t''« contractor is not ?here it is na"uml that tho ongineor would consult with foremen and talk with th..m h«(^..« J-, ."'*^""" .nstructions or without first seeing tho contrrto^;. L" ..o ^tautr^"^ ""^' day m- Soro*;,. "?" "^ •" r"""""!^ P''«^'"*^' ""'^ ^''« iontrac?,, i away for a day 01 two, or only for six hours, what would tho engineer do ?-A ThJn th« ongineor would givo instructions. "" "** ^" wl!*»^''o ;'" "."* "«'®*' '"'^^^ M""- Schroibor's opinion on that point?— A Trir. By Mr. Douylaa : Q. Do you know what instriictioDH Mr. Trudeau trave toAfr r)ouha,.nf. 9 a r would like to have Mr. Desbarats's reply to this loUer Desbarnts ?--A. I Air. Vanier.— It comoB next in the exhibit to mS-. Piront.r'''" " ''""'■ ''"'"'' '^°"''""'' ^'"^''""'*^' ''"'- '" "P'^ *« ""° ^' »"*J ««°t I asked Mr. Parent in tho presence of Mr. Dosbarats whv it was I did nof .,„f ,,1.. „ and Michael Kenny, who was tho foreman over tho stonUutte.s, hud to go thoro L„d JrrnfrrpS.:^;r'^'""^'^^'^"**'^«™^"«"^ Q. JVas the outlined plan of which you speak delivered ?— A No Q. It was on the 6th of February that ho writes there ?— A Yes ' y. Did he not leave about that time?— A. I am not nuitn Rnr« ' tt« n,...i i * have left about that time. Mr. Parent could te!l tlll^t betUr than I ' ^" ^""''^ "°' . ^f K '^«y;«al8«g»^en to Mr. Kennedy general dimensions of the abutment but hav« not boon able to furnish a detailed plan, as I have not had sufficient details of^h! metallic structure to complete this plan. I beg you will boar in mind hat there Z^ otZ '''''" '*'""^''' \" '^'. '""""^'- P^'^P^^^d for the con tnictTo,. of the worL each change involving an alteration of the plan. ' " This was not, in my opinion, and should never have been, a reason whv I have never received any plans. You know, as an engineer, that if a pivot p"or is to be 39 feet square at the top and 18 feet deep, with a batter of one iich t^o the foot it means so many feet square at the bottom, and if it goes down 10 ?eet more it mean! 80 much more masonry thicker, with the same batter, so that the pirswourd not interfere very materially with tho cutting of the stone P "Those causes have undoubtedly retarded the preparation of the olans hnf th« work has never been delayed for want of the plans " P ' ^^^ ^^"^ it u,^,?7C^ ^ '''"' " contractor and had commenced a heavy work, you do not think ^ wou Id be very comfortable for me, in the middle of a cold winte •, to be pulling off rfhZn h * T"'"F '^''•^" *^ '^« engineer's office to find out his plans a Jd details Should have the plan in n,y pocket to show to my foremen w^ho conduct ihe whom?^'^ '^" "^''''" ""-^ complaints besides that he has mentioned ?— A. To- Q. To Mr. Parent or anybody else?— A. About whom ? Q. About anything?— A. I think I have. IIU Q. AImiIH tJiillwik ||„.» ,„,.v |,tt.„ :„#„.<• , u, .uJ Jh:;,:;;r',;:t: ^,, ''"* "•"•■" """ -•" "-i'-™ « ■• «.„. „.,„..,' i. I)..l you kn„w nlm„t .l,„ ..,„„rao., )»- \ | ,|i,i ^•t()||o Q- So ,hHt you oo„l.i cho,.k ,1.0 „„a«rial .lolivomi /-A. Vch. I inoai) tho ".ono Mu. Mr IVLoriuuor w«h ,0 : ^^^^^^^ -7P>';i" «bo„t wuh the »"n ,...«.! ,> ., W- vvoul.l you oxplain tho oarlinu-nr fl.,. . •rum/ Why .lid'yo,, cart '^,rH,« r.;:*"i "•"!" ^ '« «t- Vincout *l„ Paul ro oxpiaiu that qfu«tio,/a„d m Ll u L^',"«'"« '"".'>'""'« '"Hway ? J M"iirrum A. To o^•plai„•',haV^,fu;;io;"a„d^„«k^^f H ^•••V'«'"« " i" <••• •"« nuiway ""Kt. hri.l«o, i, Hhoul!) havo I'on «K^^^^ Z^l' rl "'""" '"'• tho think It inusi tl'e «rHt of April' VVo'^^^cir. lyVboutTaii-'n '^t^"^^ fi^"'«?« ^'"mw'' >„ P'or, and about tho 25. h or 2(5tf ffrch I not fed Ur P ^''" "'" ,""'^'"'^' "»' ^'' " P' v<)t tha -that wo did not have tho stono Tocesiv tl h.^M ?.''"'"' ""^'«*''^ '»"' »'«'"<>r« «n the countiv vvith Dohonv to ' ^" ««* '^n thou bnnK it to C6te St. Antoioe havo « dmr It *' .^ T^**'* "' ^'^^ other trains c«r,uf,o^C6toSt.Ant3inetotheWollin^^ to u^•«» ^« <=«'•* »he stone ?-A. Q. Did you cart any stone fon. . , e?-^ / T did Vd What was that lor?— A '»' v •}, , f' , Q. What about the lumber tbVi, w- .v. X^'^^'".-',"/ ^f, ''^tain the cribwoi-k was a good deal of it. "«rtOi»WK ouored of ?'- Henderson ?-.A There circui^^e;^"«"''-'"'--^of ity-A.Ye8.I think there w.,.. „nder the 2: Sd^o^SSlteSlSlTuVetiTt'^"^'^"''^^^ ^«^'d- « oig nat spruce for the temporary bridge ?-A. We did. 1 thought then iucted from Mr. De- Instead of II tlio .. . ? /'Til'i ^"*' T'/'""^ ^'!' ftcortuli. quHni 'v of lumb«r ihnf wn* doilveml hh.I tlrnbor oidonul that wim nut um.«|. )>i»mii> ot A ^wT.'".'! ".'"'"^ l»'«' '"'nLor ..n!or...l Ibut Hlill .■..mninH in IlenrloiHonV yar-J.? -A. Wol Itluu WUH onh.nxl, I ll.mk, m.nu. ..( it lor piU, .J.ivInK, TImt w«h Htuff thnt WUH (lih|>«nNO(| with, nn..m.?_A. Ho ro(,o,n.n..,..lo.l flouting boom, h, toad r/l , lo .h^.vm«. whK.|. wan certainly a .nuH, choapor an I moro npoo.ly mannor ..f doiiViho q. IIow would you oxpJHin tho .lincopanoy LotAoon tho tin.hor onl.xo.l an.l t lo ;; o. ;:i '" an ""' ■" "" i""''"»"«"\^'"-'«^ -"•' •»•« i.<.rti,.n ihatro.n«inH ,>; tho K''""<"l/-A. I do n..l quilo uii.lorHtand that, (|UOHtion; that in a vory hhif "'''*•>'. >""• >^""t .no to oxplain whoJo that^liHc^oimn^y out ^i .II'^^TrVr-^"" "''"'* "^ ^'- !>'•''*"""'" 'iK'To^y-A. I think ho Ih away out. Idonotihinkho waHovrrinapoK.tionlol.oal.lo to IIkuio on that timl.or llo Htatod that hi novor panH,..! ovoi- the workn oxcopt onco or twico, and ho took a nmnthatrouldKivoh.malit.loi«lormutl.,n as („ 'the actual or nearly tin, m-tua iy. me Q. Mr. Parisoau took his quantitioK from Mr. Papineau ?-.A. I mav add at once that Mr. Pariseau's Htatoracnt concerns tho quantity of timber, and the timber used in the permanent works wa. taken fromMr'papinLu'sprevious Telreraent ovnr if' H« h„Tr °^ ^ "?f»«"'-ed what was lying on the ground when ho walked over It. He had Layery with him, aiul they moaKured the timber actaallv on tho ?new nothl".? "7't'"^ '"7'^''' *^'"' T *''*'«° ^•^'•'^'' °^ Pe-nianent 1 ks, he knew nothing ?_A. I am only npeaking from what I know mysell. My informa- tion IS that there ,8 nearly double tho amount of timber in the permanent crbworks .4 r® 'u-'^*''". ^'''***''^ """^^ ^^"* ' '^"'^ *" ^his statement. He makes 315 GOOfertodd and nh.nk there is over 600.000 feet, board measurement, alonejn thrcriWk' nn -J^'i ATWATKR.-AII the subsequent statemeniH alxmt materials havo been based on Mr. Papineau's quantities. «/oocu Mr. MoLbod.— Except the material on the bank, Mr.ATWATBB.~Imean what was in the permanent works— the com Darative statements made by Mr. Pariseau are based on kr. Papincau'a statementH •■^-^U 112 By Mr. Douglas , cribworks, the pivot nVe- of V L wliv . uV^"" permanent „ „„^ pivot pie,' of t^rtZ i'nl\Zf::'''TZytl^^^^^^^^^ b«'- t^e the pernjanent worlis. Well I tell vmi thttfU . ■ °"\315,056 feet aa a total for timber- in the crib-wo;k above the ^ell intton b..idr*'^ ^'"S *^"* '»'"«»"' ^f defined here, it is all square timber '^®'""^*''" '''"^g«> '^'^"e. The whole thing is ■ to thl'qurior in't;e".e';5:rrt"hrrbr. ^Ti-t t^^-^^- ^^ — should go to .he works and maL out a proper «tren^int'„n'r J''"* the engineer they find their quuntitien, and we will dSX same ? mlnn'''"'^ ^^^'''^'^ ^^ere somebody must be wrong. ' °"™ebody must be right and By Mr. Vanier . Q. We have a detailed plan here s,eo}^JL%n. hfs e'ldeSc^ il^ad^uft) '' ''^ ^"'"^^^' ^^ -'^''^ -'^ness in- E. Kennedy, recalled, and deposed as follows : By Mr. Vanier : Do you understand the plans? Can you read a plan ?_Ye8, sir; certain plans. buildings I do not know anything^at all about ^O'k ?-A. Yes ; but plans of By Mr. McLeod: conn?ctir witif Zse tSs ?IT7:Slt'^.!^" ^J--- ^^ Mr. Parent in superior officer. ^ ^' ^ ''^^''^^ considered that Mr. Parent was my Q. And you always acted on that understanding ?_A Yes sir • tripH f. Q. And you had given him the time of the men enea^ed? A wV ^\ • , Q. He would be at perfect liberty to "ea» there to see about it ?— A. Yes. The reason whv I make the statement is this ; I should give an explanation of these answirf ^ Q. We want to get exactly what the facts are ?— I am prepared so* far as mv knowledge goes to give you all the information. I do not wisRconcea? anytw"/ iSrf m"'^*'^ answers I am giving, you would naturally think that Mr st Louis, or Mr. Parent, or Mr Papmeau were to blame for the answers I amSinL but I am giving them according to my opinion. Practically speaking, I thini the?e was noboSy in charge of the Grand Trunk works. Mr. PaPent. of course fsBun/r intending engineer, and had to look after both bridges, but hik duties extendefso far that It was impossible for him to look after everything. He had his office work to attend to, and it was impossible for him to act as foreman. Mr. Pap Seau waTJhe resident engineer, I suppose; his ordei-s are limited, like those'^ of alHthw engineers, to certain ordei^ from the department. Mr. St. Louis had the sunplvin J ofthe labour. I suppoae he had a pretty good thing of it, and he did not St! T *u-^; S"* '' was not his interest to limit the number of men ?— A. Certainlv not I think It was his interest to get all the men there he could ^enainjy not, Q. And he had control of them ?— A. To a certain extent. Q. So that there was no check whatever upon Mr. St. Louis ?--A You mean aa to the actual number of men ? Yes, I am sure there was a check. By Mr. Vanier : Q. You said there was a check, was it the space that made a oh«nir ?_ a k^ I mean this: I iiad to certify, and I did certUy to Mr. St. Louis's aoTOunte" Thl "•"•m ^I^t'^u^ » that the time-keepers, eoughlin for instoSce for ««; man jrould certify to the account before I did, w that he counted the men; Thwo weS his instructions from me. I would never certify to an account of Mr St LoSs W 116 is i ! k cl«Tf h.'b„J,°?-A!'i'° nw'S" °' ■°°" ""''""' '"'""•' '"'» <»»"'""«""" 11,0 ^i/ Mr. McLeod: i»-i ?dii;7o iTo^At ^ilt""'"™"™ '"•«' "■'' "■» "" '■'--"■' "»'■-» y- "«-.• Q wto fr?-r'F!^''ri,'"''''°" '-*■ H" ™ <^l"«'-tim..kco,,or. n w ) ' ^' *or th« govoinnient. ' onoo1\nT"nomin"ef^"* by the gov«nunont?-A. Yob. employe.! by me; he was ^.^j Q. But he did not actually keep a book of the time hi,n«elf for you ?-A. He Q. How did he yet the returnR of Mm «im,» 9 a r i. the Grand Trunk br&ge and the WoMi^torbrLf ' ' ""'" ^"" ^" '««"" ''"^^^""^ *«• A »™ asking about the Grand Trunk (imn?* a ir^.. 11 t. Grand Trunk? Ho only counted the min '""" '-^- "^'^ '''^^ •>" ««* it at the o TK^ri"'^ " V''^ f''"^'' ^"^ *" K«t the number ?-A Yes it m durin^g tixs 'nhiSa"ci:L„Tt"r f'"^ '« ^""/ "'' '•«""'« - --t have Lpt the time mvHel of 1 200 Zn^^ *"" P™"7 near. I and nev4r had any dZu'l on py^ia^' "'''"'' '••'^«''^°^' " ■"""'« "«•"«■"" book. not??:A''"No'''™ "'"" ''"^^ ^^"' ^'^^-^ -«" ^"'-V'? tl'o ti-o benides, would there Q. But you should have the men's names down in a hook y a », i seven in the morninrtho n en want to maL\ 7' .- "*'"'^'' ^« »"'"" ^^^ h»lf-P««t time-keeper will not take out E li,Jk amf dr^Z*^ '■'; k'"? ?": ''""' '"^^ ^'^^' ^ut the that i8 to^^say, if he isrcomDetentSnhil, % "^ ' ^^ ^"'^•"*? ^''"«° «"««'« time, and take a e^nain n^X^fmTn Sm mcCy '" '"" ^" "'""^ "^ °^^'-'"'" ^''^tance A. it.^'"' '' '''''" ^"" •"•" "^•''•'^'"S ^°'- •"^"^'•^ ^««ethor with the eame gang ?- oppo?tuX of knTwt^tJe m'e^n tl tvtn"'' ^'^ ^?'l-""",'^ '"'^ '"-« ^^'^ ««™« I can get good pe3to crroboT,! wLt ? sir^fh^^r'-^'^P"'^- ^ *'^'°k Q. You could not have done bettor than he did ?— A. No Q. That does not answer the Question Whaf Hi..o»»» . u .. the work ?-A. It made considerabKCence in thfs wa^ Vh«n^^^^ *"**?" "^«"* It looked as if Mr. Kennedy was the boss of tl.« wort ?»p ^^ ^\t ^o''^ started the supen-ntending enginee.^aZtK?den ngiZr but pr«o?i?al^^^ ^"« the man who had charge of thn work tt^ •- «>isi"oor, pui practically, Kennedy was a man wanted aVb Ko«id 4t com- ?-T "i"'og"»'=«'°"''-A. None whatever. A. No, HJr/l noj;,r dill ^""' "'" '•"^«™"»""'^ «<'"t'-»«t 1»»^""'' "t the start?- men£r «ellS;^^.l^?^t ''^ZTr ''^"''"^"^'""^ '^'^'^ ^^ -™- with^" ^''"* ""'" *^""''""^ '" ^^" preparation ?-A. Time was deficient to start Q. Did you not keep at it constantly from October ?— A Wo did ni.iinf!,.niu conti^uo'lif c3'; T Tt'"T. !?'"^ '"''^ I'^^'f '" ^"^'-^^ there was nothing, like a A. ilTSrnVuVura'wLn:"" *' ''^^ p^^p^"^'^ ^'^^ ''""^'"^ -*■' ^^^^ ? had aVflfcSTuantrt^rf "sle^^^^.^d ZV^ed'^rer; ''l To^""^ ".""' ^^u you could not st2rt the ^aeonry until you KThe's;onfpI-7pa;ed '' "''""'^ "°^' K aVT ^''"''^ .require to have it almost all prepared ?— A Yes JanuV^Jr^tr^clt^lir"''"^' ^''^ '''' '^"^^"^^ "^''^ '"'^^ «" *^« 24th 4th AprriuatTou?tV« tf^' t?'"^ ^"^"-^^ ^"^^ ^* ^'« ^^'^^^d about the 3rd or 4m April, juat about the time tho pivot pier was finished. After that we wanted to 118 SF«SSSL«;?SSxfSa£ K m?"."^"'* delayed for want of Htono ?-A. Yos thatti"?!!" "' ^"' *'""' *'"^' "'•'^"•'^ '"•"?«• J^« y"» J^-w "nything about Q. There were some bouaht. were thorn nnt ? a r k^i- .l Q. You needed them lor the work ?— Yos. By Mr. Vanier : y. Why not all ?_A. Because tbey applied to the general running of the canal. By Mr. McLeod : Q. Were you using them at that season of the year ?-A. Some of them. By Mr. Vanier: powe?.; ^'" "'"'' "°* •■"" ^""' °^" ''gfa* ^' that time?- A. There was no water Q. Could you not have used vour own iMmna ? a ■ur^ » u . Q. Did you ?_A. I believe tLy d?d but3 IF S^L "'^k '" f""' ^^ *''«™- is concerned, that is under Mi- Jo in r^nnnllv Ti ja /"' "^ ^''^ electric station .T«nt to have it goTt now hat I did not k^no^^ Ih"''' ''."''.T ^"y''^'"^ «''°"* '^- I •II aoout the elfctric i^hlg on the LachSr^^^r T "' «' "'^^"'J^ anything at anything to do with it.Ld"feveVtookr,IyrprsibilU^^^^ ' ''''' "-«•• By Mr. McLeod : no "U^'^fftu""'' *T'"«'"*^ '" Mr Papineau, who know nothing about it, muHt hare affected the work very materially. ' Q. The works had not been oommwncod when Mr. DoBl»iiiaU) loft ?— A To a certain extent. «..*«» Q. Thev woro not HtaJted out ?-A. No, they nhould have been, but thoy wore not. Q. So that tho on y differonco would be that Mr. Papinoau did not know any- thmg about tho plans /-A. Well, he is an engineer of tho govornmont, ho can reil Q. Ho would have time to Htudy the plana ?— A. Yob. Q. Had tho works got well advanced ?— A. Yes. Q. In that caso do you think it would havo made much difference to tho works? —A. It mado some. mucl?" ^^"^ ^*^" ^^'°^ '' ™"*^" ^*** ^*"^'*'* *'°"' ™^'"" ^~^' ^^' ^ *'" "°*' ^^^"^ *^ ^'^ Q. WaH tl.eio any delay on account of the supply of timber, or was it supplied as quickly UH required ?— A. Yes. yy ^ Q. Thoio was no delay?— A. No, not that I remember. Q. Tho stone for tho Grand Trunk was supplied by Mr. St. Louis?— A. Yos Q. Was that supplied as quickly ? Was there any delay in the supply of that ? —A. It was well supplied, no delay. •> j fy j A ^xT^^u^**®/? ""^ ^1°"® supplied for tho building of tho Grand Trunk bridiro? — A. Not that I know of. '^ Q. Or the Wellington bridge ?— A. I do not understand what you mean. Q. Was there any other stone supplied for tho building of the Wellinirton thi fSd«:t\\?-A^^^^^^ '^'' 'l"^"'''^ y"" «"^ «"^^«r Q. There was no other ?— A. No, except that stone of St. Armand's. (i. Was there any stone of the old abutments used in tho Wollinitton bridce ?— A. 1 think there was some used for backing. Q. All tho backing?— A. I think it was all in the backing. Q. Was there a large proportion of the backings from the old bridge used?— oiH K^Vi^*i"^ P'-oportion of tho backing of tho Wellington bridge was used from the old bridge^— A. You could not put it as a pi oportion. Mr. Dosbarats had draughted out a specification oftho amount of stone that was requisite for tho faced stone of both the pivot pier and the two abutments oftho Wellington bridge, as well as the backing required for both. * .u- .^L ^^}^^ ^^^^ '"*° consideration the stone in the old abutment ?— A. I do not tnink no did. Q. Could not that have been used to advantage in tho backing ?— A. It could Q. Was th«re much of it wasted and not used, loft there?— A. Yes. . , 9- 4 '"'"SH quantity of that stone was not used that might have been used for backing /—A. It might havo been UHod, yes. f*i!^V^^ there enough backing supplied from the quarries to make up the whole of the backing?- A. There was, I think. Q. Without taking into consideration the old abutment?— A. Yes, I think there *u S' P° y^" know if there was any of that stone in tho old abutments put into the backing for tho Grand Trunk bridge ?-A. There may have been, I am not quite sure. It is pretty hard for me to give evidence from memory on those minor details. 1 could not give you an idea of how much was used, but I think there was some. cent^' ^°" ^^'"'^ ^^* proportion was not large ?— A. I could not give the per- K li^' S^ Z^^ ^*^l^ ^"y^Ji'".? *° *^° "^'^^ checking the timber that was delivered by Mr. Henderson ?— A. Well, I did not check the timber. I very often over and saw what was being done, and gave the cullers instructions. 120 m know^lh"'"TSu ST^^^^^ only inBtance I can quote is thin : I Trunk bridge, and ho ;j^;;^o\TirnWa"l^^ J ^'r\ *''« ^''•*"d ihmU more than two or three Driv Z ,m«f nl . *^ ° " ^"^ "«''<«'-h, but ] do not Trudel there and I a«ked m1 HenJe J, Xt ^,17^ ^^'• ''' T '""'•"'"^ ^ «««^ he was ordering some timber for Gi an Trunk !• was doing there and he said orders from hhn? Ho "ail Yes I Hi J ^f "^^*' T'''- ^ «"'^ = ^^^ y»" t«ke the Wellington bridge I Tl ^l MeGiily Z wi^?,"^' l'"f """'?,- ^^'^^ ^^went to fact that Trudel was givinc ordorH ?o t® *'.™''®'" ^""°'' '<' ''^' knew as a remonstratod with Moliiiir^^fo . .jj^U^^^^t^^^ «? "aid, yes. and I allowing Trudol to give orders to IlemlorHon " ^**"^^'"'^ "'"' ''"''^"'' """•"'-for y. AVas that for a largo amount ?--A. No it was not Q. llow many dollars would it represent?--/ J eoulH nof . n • . .cn;L?h"."tii;Slt'tS'°'''""'-"'"'''''"°"'-''''''-A-«'en, I „„,„a „„. Wollioglon brijL-o „„,1 tho Grand Tr,, ,1 fj ■'^ "'J"', '", ™""'''>«<'" "Ith the cx4|rh^?;;:,tonrc:'i°„f„& ■ — , .<> » o.«.i„ ofyoti3wgr?iA'S""''°"''"'''''°''''"™ »" ■««" ''""vored, ,„ ,h, be,, en give it liyoStemoi^w Z;1k ""l"*"'"^' "'° »«■»»'» you m.,l.?_A. I n Sk \'''' ^"""PO'a'y bridges ?-A. Yes. proxrmaTely."™'^'"" '" ''''''' «tone-cutting sheds, flooring and studding?-A. Ap. Q. And the timber in each of the buildings ?-.A. Yes. £y Mr. Vanier: vij. Of his own accord ?— A. Yes. % ilfr. McLeod : Q. Did Mr. Parent saneUon that ?-A. He sanctioned it afterwards. By Mr. Douglas : ^,,^^JI^^:-^^^«.^^^^a^ „,.e,. .Ha„ «e U.be. Q. F<" the whole timber deliv-ered for the f.£ work, f-A. Ye,. 121 By Mr. Vanier : Q. Did it «uit your pm-poso ju«t as well ?— A. Just u» woll. By Mr. McLeod : ' was it"no?? "!?" T.?! Ivnl ""V ^^^ ■''"'i"'' ""l ^''^ ^"" "'*=« ''"'' t''« P«r'n"n.M,t wr.rk, waHitnoy—A. lh« oxplanation is Hirnply th h : That owitiir to tho MnoclHcntinn- been done at a corlain time, it waH an advantage for the irovoinmont ((> to S itnbor that was e.iuallv m ^ood and «ot it in as Hhort a time The e wore o Iv 'n few men i >, Iho city of Montroal, in fact J do not believe therrwere Z.e ul SJ who eouh furnish tho timber required for that work at the time "' -^\^^Z Ztabie"^'" """^ ""'**'''" ^"^ '"'" ''"''^"'-'"Ki 'ho fl»'' timber, for instance ? itw.2-nj^i;rr^z;^j;;;K^S^- ^--''^^ ^" ^"« "'-^«'-'- Q. Well, It wan not suitable for the cribwork ?— A. It wan sir Q. Wiiy was it not used?— A. It was used. ' ' (i. Mr. IlendorHon said the change was madn by Mr. DesbaratH?— A Thn mr. ABCiUBALi).— I think there is a misundorstandinif as to the (juantitv that r %T K'Co'Iy: "^iTo 2 ''7X '?' r '•"^^'•'"'«^« tl^o siL'^orthe^Umb'er. A Tkir. ;'..""'*' "^^''*'*""'^"'" w"« not suitable for the cribbinL'? ZTii nn^ . .r ^'"■'^ °«'-t'"n «\^ent. IJut I thought Mr. Davis\ evidence in exS. ationofthat thing 18 about the best evidence any man could L'ive for thii ro«lon That ,f that contract had been given out in the early part of \he naviSle soason last year, in the month of June or July, and were Uiere a Hpec.fiSon frZ .^^ oSrotfri'l '"" '''''''T'' •^«.«"'"« "'« ^''-^ length unTfzesrr c'Xork ^allZ T ''*■'". ^°'"""?^'"" ^'"' *h« derricks, a contractor would natuTal v call for a specification from timber men, and got his crib down and his raft down Q. Cutting off the small end ?— A Yes worklvfriJrslrYhir^Lf 't'.'l"^'"''^ ''*■ ''■^'' '^«* ^^ "^^^ in the crib- measui^fii^f in « {hL,t %?"'' ■''"* '^^''^ ^^^ "«® * '=«'•*«*" amo""^ of board Srarem^nTfKn'^orr " ' "'^"" P"""^"^« °" ^^"^^ """^''- ^''^-^ <>' the c?ib?hf mt':te irtSi-r" ''" "'" '' ''^ ""''^-^- ^*'«'^«'^'^' ^^« '-««' averaged' '^^^^'"^''"*'''*""™^''**'^'"'°"'"*'°' ""<^ longitudinals ?-A. That can bo O ThevonXi^''JtT^.'^^ '""*"* quantity ?_A. We could not do that, y.iney ought to have been counted, I suppose?— A. Thev could bftv« hnnn lori?fP'"°f''' "^ *f* ^''''^- I^I^*« th^contrattoilJouTd have exacts from my time-keepers to keep a close count of everything that was jrdnjr on and itrZ" "' '^' %"'* *^^ ^^''■y ^^^'^ ^''«* the work ^as ?ost?ng. But^i d?d L 3o that because my force was new, and I guess they are now yet, some of ihem ^a„ ^' -J^^f '8 youridoa of overtime ?-A. Well, I have sat here a cood manv days and intoned to that question of overtime. I hink it is a very wife Tueron^ f was wni-P'"^-;J" "J' «P^'«°. «'«'^t'y on the circumstanLsof thewoT Wherl lrt«7?'"^ "^'^^ ray father we had a great deal of work at night time When Tt Tfh- LT"7M^'- ^'"^ "" ^«»'^ have to be out at night fme. and he went ?hit he knew thaUft' aT 'f ' '^r^u"^ '".**•« ^"^ "-"^'^^^ ^he Simple reron roundthenT^f 5«l K ^'d. "ot '^ort that night, there was no use of l^is coming round the next day, he would not be employed. I have worked for contractors on I3S when" wJ :&d Vhem "33 17?" °3 Sunday and the men refu-ed to work, but contraotorH como n I 5o no? & whf t"l?'l^T. ^°.l'1 u^^'"''- Th«t in where ArflH*;™- „.. ..„.. ' , ■ . " .. V""^^ what you would call that, von mi«Kf „„ii i^ By Mr. Archibald : It netB^.ut'"a'corrrto': ""^^ ^'"'"« '"^''^ "'*^^«' ^°"^^««^-« --^^ ..ply ?>A. i?yjfr. Famer.- moro^fn JhTrk'Jht^o." dT ^oT/'r }' o ?rTr,/°' '"^"^ »»«« P-'<> All I know i. what he got. ^ work?-A. I could not tell you what he paid. By Mr.McLeod: daring the day/to come baraiw^^^^^ to induce the men on the works got the men we want^ We hid To '«t ZrJ t "'^*'*' ^if^'^^'^^ ^^^ would not have fn order to induce a new g^ng tVt^rf l^trkX^lght"' ''"' "°''' ''''''''' "'«^* ify itfr. Douglas : Q WhafkinTof Suf 9*'V°^.**"'^''' ^"'" ««">« kind of labour ?-A. I did n Thnt labour?— A. Stone-masons, stone-cutters I think I diH cono.lS'j-rx'frj So? si".hSl'/,rH" r" •" f - '^"^ '"^^ «. mosons meoh.nio. "' ''""'^ '"■""• ' »«"«<' "'oneKiiitters and m«,„1im^e"' " "'" '"*°° °°' °' ^"'"'' '""'' '"A- « «"' »" of my hand in th, Q. Did you call for tenders for laboiirpra? a "v^ oJ. t u . , . not adopt and never intended t^ adopt it ' ^'*' '"' ^ "^^"'^ °^' '^^^ ''• ^ ^o 5yJlfr. Vanier: the r?on]h^ofXc'l?ln'n°ur[rwl ,T/^^«= ^hat it is customaiy in given out througrtL aictrtects^offices in'thA-?* ^i T''^ **r« ^^^^^^^^ '«»• ^^^d .^i! to work, but liat in where light call it yr of human labourer, it ' to worlc in , I think he ;bt time, he •eply ?— A. iir has paid at he paid. A. I think know, and ork in the night time the worka 1 not have fthe nigtt. . I did. did. ibour was ittera and 3S. Y to your >nd in the it. I do -A. Yes, oason for tmary in I for and X deal of . Vanier, wherein A ft VOt»^ I against ich risk. 139 Q. Did you not, as a matter of fact, after those tenders were opened bo back on your previous opinion, and prefer to engage your own men than to have a con- tract for labour ?--A. No; I never did; I may say that I wrote a letter to the dopartmont complaining about the contract being given out to any contractor for tbe supplying of labour. Q. Was not that after those tenders wore opened ?— A. I am not quite sure I never opened the tenders. ^ By Mr. Douglas : ♦ .Q\^*'iZ?»«o'J(l out this list of tenders (showing to witness a copy of the !^ b ""h^m ^^'^ ^-^^y ."ll'"^^''/*"" *^'' offlce>-A. fhoy were asked for tl.is office. I asked Mr. Turner, and Mr. St. Louis, Rose and Trottier ; I do not know them ; the only men that I can recognize there are Turner and St. Louis Q. Your time-keeper on the Wellington bridge?— A. Excuse me, I think vou ought to go more into that labour business, h ad' ®*"y statement you please. Say what you want to?— A. Well, go Q. You think that during March and April of last year ; if you had put out an advertisement calling for labour to work night and day, you would have jrot a sufficient number?— A. [ would not have published any advertisement. ^. You mean vou could get enough men without it?— A. Yes; plenty. ^' 41'.®" ^°" ^ ".^^ *''"'™ *"y responsibility for this contract?— A. I do not. a aX ,^''odoyouthinkisre8ponsibfe?-A. I do not know. You will have to that out. I thmk Mr. Parent recommended that idea; in fact he told mo ho did. y. What IS the general price for ordinary labour in March and April; for ordinary labour ?-A. What do you call ordinary labour ? + .iSir ™®'*° ordinary common labour, with pick and shovel?— A. From 90 cents to 9l*^0* Q. In vour pay-list, whom did you classify as skilled labour ?— A. We classified any man that did not work with a pick and shovel. £y Mr. Vanier: Q. That is your opinion?— A. No, it is not my opinion, it was my instructions. y. What IB your opinion on this subject (No answer). By Mr. Atwater : Q. What were your instructions?— A. Mr. Parent wrote me a letter. Q. Is the letter here ?— A. It must be here. By Mr. Douglas : J. 3 ^- ^'^ .y°" classify a man that used a crow-bar as a skilled labourer ?— A. I did not classify anybody. Mr. Archibald.— Mr. Schreiber said the same thing, I think. Mr. Atwater.— Oh, no; Mr. Schreiber wrote me a letter to Mr. Parent in which ne says, —Witness, I do not want to go byMr. Schreiber's evidence or any other f *u ^'i J l^^"* *^ S'.^® ™y °^"- I certified his pay-list, and I think it is right that 1 should be in a position to explain it. Q. Your classification of skilled labour was every man except those who were engaged in using a pick and shovel ?— A. No, they were not. A •*< j*?j instance, take the derrick men. How many men in connection with a derrick did you classify as skilled labour ?— A. I could not tell you that. I miirht guess that. *^ ° By Mr. Vanier : rpk S* J^-*^?* ** P^l personal opinion as to what a skilled labourer ought to be ?— A. ihe definition of skilled labour means a mechanic, but they were not all mechanic 124 By Mr. Emard ; dini;?o,It'l»^.°:,r'{,..J?""'"'' '''""''''" '° •'"""•' labourer J_A. Wh.t,..h, By Mr. Douglas : «.o Sy ^iKfe'r.T'""'"" "'"'" "'' "■»"• ""' "» « """ I'" <»" tW» ?-A. WI,o Q. And vou sent one of these formats vr.«» t • ^ handed forms to me. A. r never d.d but I unSJI-stlTtirCghlln dld"^'"" ^ ™"'^^ °"^ ^'« P''^"'""' '- (i. Uid he leave u duplicate with you ?-A. He did know\at7hare"hlm all''' '"P'"^'" "'^"'-^- ' '"^^'^ «<>»« of them, I do not compte^ltS^:i?^Z'f^rmXr7o.l'hte?''V'hen'^"?" ""'"'t T' "''^"^ -^^^^^^ and the hourB comoared ?-A dH S„L«„ f .k ' *'''™^ '"*•='* ^'ere the names formation possible oSt of me o^ are vortrv?^ l ?n h ^''^^ ^ou want to get all the in- Q. Not the slightest ;Ti8informatio7wi'i^^"''r ""^ '" «'^'"« my evidence? was checked with t1,e fomlT'l n"r ch'eck^r'hem"'"' ^" know whether this ton bHdgerthrerdrerntT:tr?H?^'SoSr ^'"'^ P^V-'i-t for the Welling. that?-A. I could not. ^ ^""'"^ ^'°'' ^""^^^ for the correctness Sf Q. Who could ?— A. Mr. Coughliu. By Mr. McLeod: Q. W,n you furnish th.m?_A. I will f„™i.h »„y,hlug you ask rae to. ^1/ Mr. Douglas : the o?igtuhSl.r YrTo^iiTaul'rLll? ".""V^k'" °TP"'» "■» ""■« -i'b .i« &A%t° s?hrx'ar/i;'- "■"'• "'» °'"-««^ *«^«b^ "o« *« P«y- we/cSis-r «rSg'''rr?.':5s.^'Kit''rhru'!^'- ^'"»'^" '-a- ^^'^ Schreiber. * i-aronts letter through instructions from Mr. andp^rindp\n^7i;Llr'^' By Coughlin ?-A. To a certain extent by him,' SchrL^tff. Pa'rei°an?Lm'5lr' p'-t;^5f 't'^' of instructions from Mr. Pick and shove, merw^ fo^fp^ti^^rrc^rt^^ ^Z^Z^SHr.^' ^'^ By Mr. Atwater : 196 . What is the bourer means i come under 8?-A. Who t writing nor thoHe for um, JVOH. ns to me. I pay-list ?— em, I do not J id anybody e the names etall the in- ly evidence? vhetherthis he Welling. iTectiiess of —A. I have to. ) time with ij was stone 1 that pay. —A. They from Mr. t by him, I from Mr. : That all "Oil id bo a )e a stone- labourers. ' By Mr. Douglas : Q. And he did it?— A. Yes, he gave the names in. (i. Ihon the pay-list came back after being made in St. Louis's office from fhn sheets of which you have some of the duplicates ?-A Yes '^°"""' '""''*' "«"> ^he *u H" ^"'^ Coughlin compared them with the sheets and then vou certirt«H »n St. iSui^^^X, MiS^SK"! SK a '^ tz i -i;:^^ what the differencen were and I would not certify to them omembor Q. Do you know for what reason you did not certifv them ?_A r h«i;„.,- *• the beginnl,.g to the end, and later on, there were dSence! of ^^hiion « a^n„ ""^ to the rating of the men, the classification of the men pl!pa fy wfth rei^d ?o rroS-rm :;S Z^^'^-^^- '^ -- ^'--^^ unro^J^y^l'ticTandl was a contractor, y timo-koo,,er would bo the principal m" n on Z job' Q. Does he get paid as nriuch as a foreman ?-A. ivimt is a foreman boinL' naid ? got his machinists, foremen and so on. But we had to H.-m! inT ft ' "° ""? once, and in two months we had to create fo.« and rn«k'« t^l J ^ "^"'^ ".* create almost everybody, and by the tTmo tt wo?k was rnfsherherSu '"t ""^ Bomething, but they did not know anything when They sTailed ^ ''" ^"'"^ keepi?rr\vrte';b"erlll ?hTrer ''''' '^' ^^^ P"- ^ «^"'«^ ^^- 84. U'LlTee'^eTon thet^d i'J^^T, ^^ittt^t mlTetcirt '''' t"^ they were on the Wellington bridge; buri Z n^of J^ow them '''''"* ""' *''*" 1^. JNow, with reference to the Grand Trunk nav-Iiat +Kn ^„;.t^r.^ show-First, had you had any connection, or did you^tJ «?; manne aToin^t'^tL^ keepers for the Grand Trunk bridge ?— A. No. ^ manner appoint time- Q. Conghlin stated in his evidence that on an average he went three or fnnr t^mes a week over the Grand Trunk bridge, that durifg theZter part of thi month when he was making that pay-list, he had to stav im all ni„hf a!^ r and was very busy, and he could not attend lo it Satfi^ JafkL f Jl T*''"f ' and counted the number of heads, without any classtficS and X^ t^^ check he had on the Grand Trunk 'time-keepersValTtrafg^neS way"' I'd'tSL^t on the average he could only go there four times a wbait NnJ^ tL7^^^ i -1 A. N^othlng thlt"evr^ '' '' "''^^ *'« time-keepers on the G/andTrunk bridge?- knew^Ie'n I'saT th?S.°' '°" *^'^ ""'^ ^^ *^« *'°^« '-^' ^^thing at all. 126 Mr. \yi and then sent down ?o yrt^A iftlemW H M? '^T- Ti" "^P '"*« P«y-"«t8 out a time-list and submitted U to me He onlV2f 3,;/ ^'^"'kthat CoughlTn made Gran?-£k ^-a'nT"^ ""''^ ''^^'^ '« ^^« appointment of time-keepers on the Q. Were you consulted as to the appointment of foremen ?-A Nn , S^. Sur '"'" "'° P"'^^^ ^'^^ ''»'°- "P- t^: GTa^nJ T^f bridge ?-A. Q. Did you give Mr. St. Louis any requisitions for lahn,,. ? a ^ Q. Did you ever sign any requisi«on ?-A No ^^^ ^°- Btonel;JoTartt"' &c"t Ks ^rTn^ J'^ ^«^"'1*^«"« ^^ ^^^our. for -A. 1 never signed any^'that'is all I knJw ''°^^'«^S« g«««' 1^« ««nnot show any ? n w°" ^®!®^' ^'*f°®'' ^^y requisitions ?— A. Never c^e*?- ''"'""^ ^°" «" "» '"»-' O' '"e W«nta|I„':-Wdge?-A. I ,„„k U « i. Q. But you had the power of refusing it ?_A. I did ordi2yS'tarml^t\?aThr.e"l ofd^ "■•" '» :ro«, them on the pay list f-A. No I wa.^he',.« in ,1, ^ ' '"•° "«"». yoi-raslf and put quarter to eevej. Mr. St Louis wm not exDMtal.oTT* ",■"[' P"" »« »' » could not wait till he came dowurio""eloTSi'2 for^hrdrej'r. n'""'' ''°'' ' ^yJIfr. Vanier: Iabou^.*a?'alf?-r Yes? '"^ ^'' '^''^'^ '^'''^^ '' '^'^^'^ ^^^ been no contract for By Mr. Douglas : -By iWir. Atwater: Q. Do you mean you engaged the men yourself ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Douglas: j.^f??sr.^rr.';.Te7urh-?d?^^^^^^^^^^^^ A. i^o„frnoT?°ii;rfrorn.r„';^''"'« "'•™-"^- ««•"» 'w,„.y.fo„„_ .he &%T„zf?^;»r:irL'''tCx sr4dr,'"'^-p-'«- ^ an Cider, but I gave my opinion ^ ^ehreiber ?— A. 1 never gave Q. Was it asked ?-A. It was asked by Mr. St. Louis. ' time-'books go p into pay-lists Coughlin made t no hours, hing whatever ghlin for that ?— A. That is Iceepers on the fo. : bridge ?-.A. Jo. for labour, for lot show any ? took it as it them to you, I'self and put tast six or a hour, and I in. contract for Wellington the labour i laying of ) a distance, Trunk ?— estion from ity-four ?— pi-evious to never gave 127 »^-.?' J^'*'' reference to what ?~A. Mr. St. Louis came over to the flour sheds Tnt L In!'^ cuttingstone and wanted to know where he would put a derrick and Lh "W-M- \ ^^'^ '"™.' ^'^ ""^'^'''g whatever to do with tfat briSe He ^iL. H h 'r"f * notgoingtoreflise to give roe your opinion. You know where It should be placed. What would you do if you were doing it ? " I said « I hill won'i°«^,-/ '"*^ '^^ ''}'^ '*' ^<"^ «'"' goonyo^xrselfanddo if." He sJd '' nJ S won t suit; you must come over and tell me." So I went over in a cam al w\; «nH pointed out where I would do it, and. I believe he did r'CVnVveTgave'ras'Jn ApriftiA.' yL."" ^°" ^"^ *" ^"^ ""'^^ ^^^ ^'*"** '^'•""^ P'-^^i^"^ to the last of Trunk'?-A.Tdo!"^"*'*" ^^"^ ''"'*'" "«t«'»^«« ""^er which you went on to the Grand Q. What occurred ?— A. You know. By Mr. Vanier: h.r.3' ^K *^« "ot know?— A. I do not remember the date. I will tell vou what I know. The first time I went on to the work, or the first time I was or& to lo on the work was by Mr. Schreiber. I do not remember the exact date but I thiS tZt^TJT''"^' "™' in April, when he remarked to me that' there was a n^.f ^ fi *' °^"*'' '" *^"*''' ^'"•t®'* *"^ «o 0°. on the Grand Tiunk bdd^e and a iulo *** °^ ^^'°^ ""• ^® "^^ ^^ ^o»'d expect and exact of me to go tfere and JS^rfh?"^ men, cartei-fl or anybody else, that in my opinion were nft necisarv I said to him: Probably you might think the same of the Wellington bridge Se" r„ A ^^'rS* *^°;!«^* ^« ^«'« doing ^ery «^«» on the WelHnVton bridge bui tha? the Grand Trunk bridge was not being run as it oueht to be Thafif wW t^^! disappointed at being tuspended. Later on, when ?hfy hid their LLo„ built for he excavation of the cribwork below the Grand Trunk pivot pier ?he water broke wnnw*5'™' T'^ '^^y '^'^^ ^^^''^ discouraged. Mr. Douglas fame to me and saTd f would have to go over there and give those fellows a hand I saM T h!^r„«fl- whatever to do with it. He saidi You have Jot to M.-' '^thrlL.. ^ "''^u"'^ got full control now. There is no use^J havrnfthe wo^k cease TraSThf" • *"" tli'ho7d\tt'"f\r' ^°^""'**u ''""' and'tlkeZld^ofT' Solt'ent'o'^ef^nS rda\^e1?f;J'a:"s'ortrriX*'ir^^''^ -dy to excavate. I do not"rermS referi:^-!"^^^^ aT4TvL^S rbreVt^um^S trSg:teuSaVd^rk\^Tgr jlStoiTtfnTn tttra7a.r''--^' ^'^ ^'^^ ^.d wTr^aS Z coJnn'iJZZ\':S^:^7^^^^^ ' M^sTtoatV^=t'^' t^" iTen? ^^!Z\tr T^'f .•^'■- W-"™e d'Jwn thaYZrg-VbTev: I went up to the hotel and woke him out of bed that mornine' anH fnlS UiJ^^lui w^ wanting. He camedown,but inthemeantimel LZZfe a Jump and boT^er Zi;:^/zz2^.r''''''''''^^^'''^''^^' - --^« thSScSoS^tt ecatt?;± ?j^i"?hr:nfs:;^^^^ ^XlJzs^::?' A. I believe they wei-e a 1 ttte bit. I was a kind Jf a terror Z^S 'r^ri onrrn-llT the (Sand^Tr^ur? a'^t'^*'*'' "'"' ^''-/^nnedy accepted some responsibiliras to S the Grind SnrMdlrTirT''ff'* any responsibility whatever for the^work op&??f"i?:^tra%^;,^i„^'^^^^^^ J 128 the G^-an%tftidg';:Ld"aS^^^^^^^^^ h« ordered you to go on to opinion that he told mVeo ^^nd to but I do nn?'/' ^"T^" \""'y »>« ^'- Sch?erber's to me privately. Za stated to me priiatelv and in^l • "^*^T« ^'' Schreiber stated Q. I mean the whole thing ?— A I mnlH n,.f . n Q. Have you a general id?a ?_T \fln» ?* *^^" ^^^ ** '^^^ moment. Q. Give us a general idea TTri'J^''"u^>®^ ™« about the masonry two abutments on^^hrwJmnito^bTidgr '*'"*™«''*« ^^^'^ *^«'« ?-A??here were Ther?wty.jStC^^^^^^^^ $TZl\Z^r'!r7\''^ *^- -- not. there w^ the same on the other ^ ^ °" *^^ Wellington bridge, and you said iB it thauhey 'e'mpt^ef mS-T mast« P'^"* ^^ «" ''^^ Wellington bridge How Probably th/face^Tlrqu'itrr: veTon ^tLT ^'!,\' *^^» the Xr?-T Wellington bridge. 1 ' « so sevete on the Grand Trunk as it was on the could^;,o?' ^'" ^''"'^ '""'y ^^"''^ «™P'03^ 20 masons on a face 36 by 10 ?-A No you enori^f A:rerstStt\\?^^^^^^^^^^^^ «- of tfae stonecutters' was Trunk bridge was that thev were niolrln^T f^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^ masons on the Grand the canal ?-1a. Now, Mr. LTg^as^^tSfe me rZ" f '^' ""^^ retaining wa, of prepared to give all the information oSbutlp?"!'"^^''' «« ^ ^^^ beflre, I am question to me in order toshow tba? K "^^^a^ive to the works. If you put the . .aw^trttrt'oTl';! '"^'"^ '" "■« """^ T'-l' Pa7-I««-A. I think 5y Jfr. Emard : Q. Did you see them all at the same time ?-A. Certainly. Sy Mr. Douglas : * What w.. the '~JJ^i,7Z7M,^X?Z!?'y°k°'°^'^ """• of the lawyers take exception to any of mv an- JI^t^u' *'°'°.°'''«'0". and if an J answer Mr. Douglas. *' " ^^ a^y ot my answers, I hope they will allow me tj Mr. Em.ki,.-I do not take exception to the answer, but to the question. Sy Mr. Douglas : 'u to go on to r. Sohreiber's ireiber stated , that I was I nothing else, what I think of tho work one-third or There were re were not. nd you said idge. How other ?— A. was on the A. No, you 2utters was the Grand ing wall, of Jfore, I am 'ou put the ain section it, I would le project- en picking i. I think ' dismiss e. lecessity. -A. My d if any iw me to 1. ht have lible. 129 remembS*^ ^'" °" ^°"'' ^^^'^^^ ""^ ""'" P'^'^'^S '^^' ^^<^^ stone ?-A. Not that I not bllii^et wa^ """ "" ™°«' ^'^''"^ '''' ^«"'°«^°" ""'^S^^^ "elow it?-A. I do ^ri^l^f^yS::^^^^^^^ Packing between the the s?utKe ofT Llohin^cLTS^dThis wouK r '^^l' '^' T^'^ -«" ^ bridge of the Wellington bridge aWe crirrk'^^^^^ Sn'thtV'T;"^ g.. certain ,e.g,h^f.ta,;/„d'reXTI,hiS\'^SSt^^^^ ' J'"'"'"™ M"! took time for the Wolliogton bridgrSer me ' O Wh^ i^'?' "'?"' "> V'"".'""'"™ '-i- O'- 'to «ton..cuSe« either Q. Whoj.Mt,me.keeperfortho»tone.outlenifcryoii?_A. Villenravs w». .■"hnriTrd^'toTr """"'^ '"" ^'^ hrjLre;-;r;e Q. Have you that list with you now ?— A No bridg1-S*fS,r.;t:::,teo':'"' ™'"^' »f «tooe.„fe„o.the Ct,™ Q. You do not know at what time ?— A. No Q. Do you know anything about the cutting of lock No. 1 stone ?_A T An n«f know a great deal about it. I passed there frequently. ^' ^ ^° "*** n v!, Fa *''»«-'^««Pers for the cutters of lock No. 1 stone ?-A No Q. You had no time-keepers?— A. No, sir. Q. Did you receive instructions to stop the cuttinir of lock No 1 «tnn« 9 a ru Q. There is a letter from Mr. Parent to von fh»it the. inni, \r^ 1 sion verbally' Parent. Q. About the date of that letter ? — A not remember. I did. But the date of that letter I do By Mr. Emard; tions Q. On receiving the letter ?_A. On receivin^jr this letter I gave verbal instruo- V" 130 By Mr. Douglas. Q. What answer did they K '-^ We 1 thiv h ^ ^?' '''■ answered : Yes, that is all right we will 8e« M ' P ^ b«th answered. Mr. St. Louis no other auswe'r to give thlSthrt he had sfe m75 ' T ^'."^"«"^«. «^ ^""rse, had bim. The following day Mr Parent cam « tn fK w n--^''"'" ' .'>° ^"« working for have a letter to stop the cutting of the "tone aJjf h^'" '^^1^ ^VM and said : I talked the matter over with hiS and theTtho'iiX .'jf «»'d that Mr. St. Louis had hand that the government wol have trpavfS, t Ir^'^ ^'♦^r'"" ^'^m on the cutting of that stone ; locks were to be enfaSed nl? ^ * *"' Tl' *° ^'^ "" ^'^^ suit for the same purpose. Mr Parent ram! i^nf ^ ^"1 1'"^ *^« ««>°e ^o"W me, and gave St. llouiPs's reasls that j h^^ :«« m^eril^H'^''* '^.Tf^lr «^«^ ^'^'^ him to go on with the cutting of the stone ^^"tJoned ; and ho told me to allow stone^,uU?nT?i"i 'MTl Jhink vo."" m'-.^^'"; P^™'"^'^ »>'» *« go on with the giving Mr. isbarats S.8tru Jio^toTl^cwl^?^ aletterfrSm Mr.Paren? tho old lock No. 1, taking it cSetelv out of £ A ^t '"''"T?' °^ *''« "^a^^n'T of charge of the rene'wal of^thrmZi^y'o^f^e o dZk N?'l"'''l& t™H*'S 'l^^"'^ to whom Ihe contractors had to apply to Tet th« nl!l -^ ^"' *°^''' I^««barats plying of stone for that work on E No^l X"?,^f7'y '"formation for the sup- for information relative to it. I toM him the wl^ "''*/'' '^^'^^^o me and w^k^ ice and that he r^ould not see it and the, ^ w^ nnLT • '"^'"^rg*^ ^ith water and thing about it but myself and that th^lL^^ b ^^^ '"•- '® P'"'''' ^''^^ ^"^'^ «"y- ^Q,Did you notiSrendSs^y T^ck'i'lTotr'A*' T ^"r"^^'^ '"^°^^- recognized. '"^k i^o. i stone ("—A. I did, and thoy were By Mr. Atwater : «ou!d not tdl y.., the eESe if musihave b«l ""n'.'""^""? ^^ ^'- ^^''^'' I the latter pjirt ol" February *'®^" '° ^^'^ ^^'''y Part of March or lock l^'?^^'.Ttwaf before ^"' "'^^ ""'^^^ '-^'•-*-- to stop the work on ^^^Q. Before you had received instructions to stop the work on lock No. 1 ?_ A. now tr^^esn^sirCSmers?^^ «"^-^-"^ ^« ^'^ 'etto- you speak of stop?heVtrw?rl^?lTck^ HubseTurtj C Z''^'' '^"^^^^^ '^ Ml-. Parent ';'-A. The lettor to which I refer^w«« h«f. .J^""'"/"" re^^^ived from to.4S;^r;\^:^«^|j^~ on l^k l;^ ^ttl^ ^^iErV^^^^ - -P - work Schreiber to stop the woHc' Mr' PaTentt^ote^m'e"^"'"* ^'^ instructions^ from Mr. allow%?Lollst ^' on" -r V ttlXrl Ir'"/"" ""'' ^"'•«"*' *«"'"g ^ou to that Mr. Desbarats had full Charge of the iL '^Jf 'T^ '« > ^''l^' ^^ich ihows work, and Mr. St. Louis hlmRelf tL,jLT 7- ^"^*^f^"g'"«®'''"chargeofthe count'edinthegame^^^ll^'TlVerbLrrrn'rth?^^^^^^^ ^ -« -' The further examination of this witness was adjourned. The eommission then adjourned. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 131 you ordered ir. ilr. St. Louis course, bad working for and said: I t. Louis had no stone on I go Oi. with stone would r over with me to allow on with the Mr. Parent masonry of ^hat he had . Besbarats br the sup- I and asked water and knew any. my hands, thoy were vidonceon Parent, I ' March or > work on o. 1 ?— A. I speak of ctions to ved from lit ail. Schreiber the work from Mr. g you to jh shows ;e of the was not Lachink Canal Inquiry. The commission met at 10 a.m. Montreal, 5th August, 1893. her. Present : Messrs. McLeod, Douglas and Vanier. Edward Kennedy recalled and deposed as follows :- By Mr. Douglas : Q. I cannot find that letter to you about lock Nn l ft ;= * ■ .l -„ .t .B not m list given T-A. It shoufd be on"recorl; 1^ U. pLrt^offlce "^""' '"' % Mr. McLeod: Mr"TmSAL^n ' T '«tera and abutments of the Wellington street ra Iwav brSs o^v«r it Lachine canal. Pursuant to request from the denartnienf vnn iiii l;.^ ^® Mr Kennedy.— This letter was asked from me by Mr Parflnf in n..^^^ * • Schrelbe,-, to that I did not „of Z cutS irSl Ze L bcjTo''l "'«"'"'■ •?'• Mr. IvENNEDT.-The contract had not been «iven out then ^' Mr. Parent.— Here is a letter of 28th November Mr, ■^■|Lm°e ?^A 're J""""'"^ """ ^''" ™'''""'>' "*""'«<' "■'• S'. Loul, ..d Q. Did the work stop then ?— A, No. Q. They did not stop on j'our orders?— A. No. ] must have ly what Mr. ■egards lock 'ally to Mr. nt made an the proper Qo that Mr. 9ng8t those m thot Mr. had never TO come to tuse no one out it than rao for the irday, sub- und in the ling to go r and Mon- t lock No. reo letters ing of the over the e prepare so inclose my of old Parent to dy to Mr. I masonry sr to give charge of ister, Mr. *fow, it is ' find out this that 10 bridge, ouis and 133 about the instruotioM ho had JSLiivurt frj^ om »"'I "o lulkod the matter over ^^•.^^■rJscrttfh-:tt£S~zfHi^^^^^^^ ever^da"'.' ^°" "^ "'■• ^'- 1"""' "^^ "»' '-A- I think I ..„ him pretty „.„rly work. eopinion mat Mr. iarent expressed in reference to that cutting fo'lo^on?" A."Yes^^" ""'' '°^^'--««- ^-- Mr. Parentto permit the stone ByMr.Emard: Q. Without any letter ?-A. Without any letter. By Mr. Parent : By Mr. Vanier : A. Weiu';m gi^i^^^^r^^Snc'^irth: J^^V^?'-^-^ vourself on that point?- else a^old^roTthl-l'^C '^•««-"*'3^-'f- -tS. and ^^ou are saying something nedy^'i^rCrrirSotTem^g wL^'^s^TrTV^^ '*«?"T-^'^"^ ^'^'^^ Mr. Ken- misunderstood each other Mr Kennedi is «Svin Jh! °"'^.^»>'"« i« Jhev may have timeMrPrnrr^-^efv^Vrs^str^^^^^^^ S^T^f '^"-^ -*« -^ "* ^'^^ How much undressed sto"« was on ha Jat h^fitifv^^T^^.^lu'^^J" ^"«^«^ ent amount of undressed stonfto Lish thfcmracTat f hJ^ • "'"^ m """^ ''^ ^" 'l"^^*" instructions from the minister to ce^e cutting Slock n^^ ^'^ ^^''^^^ r«««ived By Mr. Atwater : "'« letter ?— A. it, I think, bhat order 'as given ? rot all the the stone leddling? meed. 18 to look kind. between is matter illeneuve the next le inter^ first re- Jgh Mr. iving in- drove ff he re- itop the I'd here,, view, I t would ride his ns why n, if he orders )f. 136 Mr. DouoLAd.— Here is a letter dated Montr*'- May 4th. from Mr St Louis tn Mr. Parent.— I notified the foremen when they were troins- to out th« hniir.™ poins I wanted to know the dale when they rLfv^d fhTttw points and! hoUowTo/nT *'"'"'^ '■ ""'"• '''' ^*^P '"'''- ^""^y -^^« ^°'"g ^« bTgiJ'uting ?he Mr. Atwater.— Mr. St. Louis says he was stopped on the 24th April. JBy Mr. Douglas : wh«tSv J2." have heard here the number of the stone-cuttors' hours, you have heard what the stone-cuttmg cost, nearly $68 a yard; can you account for that Kerens Mr. -Doheny-B statement of the actual quantity ^fstoni (exhibit F) Is Mr Dohlv 1. B]/ Mr. Vanier : T fK«^"J! il"""'^ ^'"" ^^^ "^""''^ ''-■^' I ^^'^ 284 cubic yards. This is for lot'k No I thought there were more cubic yards of stone than (hat for lock 1. ««. ^' ^'"' *u 7 •^a" I'"* that in as a sworn statement ?-A. I am sure there aia more yards than that. I made out a specification that would equalabout 560 By Mr. Douglas : m»n?„f alt'lrd " ' '"' °° '"'"'' ' -'^- ■^'*- H" " ""P""" »f ""«W"S oat . ..ale- aKnH?' T^" ^®^'° *^** Statement that they had 24 or 26 skilled labourers in Jacaues's !Km'S^*°\''"°'^''^^* ^^'^^^ labourers were required on that work ?-A ? f h^n ?v, ^^l**' ^T '* P^m* °° '««°'^'i t*^»* these sheds should have been hMev defined |tSS-.r£5S".5S.rr3SS 1 floS'sher "^'^"^ '^''''' *^' '*°"' "^"^ '"' ^*''' ^"''^ ^«- 1 ?-^- It ^a« cut in No. tliat?kJ^?.T'*n-"^^"^^^ ^^-'^^^ labourers moving that stone about charged on derrick ?ns?Je™'''"'^ ^^ "' ^"'"'^^ inside ?-A. No, wo could not put a ot^e?t£:Z^:Z^Zl^^^^^^ - ''' ^- -- - 26 men A Ther77erTmYn'!!!n.^°"S ^^ ^^'^'^ necessary to cut that amount of stone ?- ftijne— ^ ^^' '*°"®' ''^'^^'^ *h« ^''^t d»y ^f^«n ^« started cutting 9r .A. ^ *,°\ talJ^ing abo'^t lock No. 1. There are 300 yards of .stone cut there ara fuS Howmanv"r"'"'*""'?lf^- '^«° J°«" *« *^« denlckrwoS'be a laJge thanfl:. How many men were there at the derricks ?-A. Five and six As to the other number, I could not give you any reason why they we7e Sere I know 136 along with having men to cant th« «tn?L ^ 1^^^ "^""'^ nocossitate two Lranm: and then some mfn help ng to bad the Zt «Tn" *° fr '"•^'*'° t*"" etone-outte^rs the sheds, and to unloaS ^^tSl^l'ni'j^TLtrbrJughtt. ''""'' '""^^ ^^ ^""*'- °"^ ^.yifr. Famer.- . han^ie^^n S''L;Tt:'ba!-^'tS*tr;;^u„^^^^r«". '« ^'"^^ '' -"'^ "'l-re l.ttle awkward or unhandy he miZ chh. off . hJ "^ ^''^ "^""- ^^ » ™«° "^ere a Q. Would you call that skHlfl i„k^ '^ off the corner bit« of out stone. I th.nk I said yenterd^y a skilled labourer was a 'nJec W ''''^""■' * '"'^''*"'^' By Mr. Douglas: long wtr^j« ' -- 2^^ %::^ :^u^ ^'^^"^ ^^ ^- '^^-^ ^^« ^- ~A In the beginning they L^lly o^^^LTT""""' '^ '^"^' *° themselves ? greatest portion of the cutting of the stone tnth Jwn?" '^''®? "^^ ^''^ through the sheds /heyoutthestone n^NyraSdNo 2i^J''H^T.'^''i'^.S*'' ^^7 »^«d two the sheds and on the wharf. °* ^ *''^'^^ "'^'^ » ^^^ of '^ outside between -a/i Sul!lX??e%^ortLl^^^^^^ "r 'V"* ^^«^ ^«« ^-t »0"g? shed. But I know that you cannot place The m«« '/°"'. '*'** "'S'^* ''^ «"' i" one reason that they would be in Tnlf^P u- ■™®'' *°° '''ose to one another for the occasion when ffrnd out from^^ stone mT^^ ""Ir"''- J^^'^ '^«o^ on on^ shed but! forget what it was ^ measurer the number of yards in one ^^^ Q. You did know the number of yards cut at one time ?-A. Yes. but I forget Q. You have no note of it ?— A. No of th?ee?nch "it pla"nks "wt^UfJT''- ^'^'^ '' '"^^ '^«* '^-^> ^00,000 feet thousand. DiJ you^cone dJr tSat a confepT"^'"^ '' '^'^"^ wide/at 811 a was the same. The specification in fK?* I presume Henderson's contract 10 to 16 feet long anTareraSJ lo ^^^^^^ jour invitation toVnder?!!A^ifolfv%r^'' '« l^"* what you rSqui.Sd bv vitation. ^ ^- ^ ''^ "0* «*act'y remember the wording of the ib- Q. Look at exhibit C 15 naffe 8?_A Tu^t j- «i. • . . ^ Q. Then consider the conSto4 wKnT..^ l-l^l '"^Itation to tender. work, ,0 get whatever WoTmJtion w« pL^f .ll ,k"?° ™' !" '''■"•'"' °f "» ■WM Mked to tender, gat all the inft.™.«i^ !t i ' °,'i ,""' '^'^ lambomaii who ;M^.t O'Ooj-or did -'of do maoh bwS « a l™v™ '" iT' ' """y "» ^t"" tnonaon/l ■<•«-,♦ _,c4.i -. t. J , , uuoiuobs as a Ittmoerman. T do "'St tM-^L- '^- > - j V-- a..., ,„„t, ._,^ tuat kind of lumhnr nn ko«.l IT ,"■ '" tumli. UC nad S .«».. S-*.,:,.r.;rit Parent s office often enough and at Mr. DeHbaratH'H office O wHJ ^r "'' 'S"««^i«'«° «*'that ?-A. I have knowledge of that Q. But you never refused any information ?-A. 1 never refused nv iumb«,. men any information that was possible in every detail. Tdid nrwLh ^tl,ir*« » L'nS' r^'r"" ^"^'"^ '^^'S^ "f invitations to contractors To lender We fn^S^^ptitTortre lli«g£ ^^"- ''' -"-^^ - «^-" «- - ^"ttimare: rili.lrt*" ^^' Hpocification and the definition of this invitaUon to tender I never refused any one that came to get information ? '"^"a^'on »« bonder. I here of ShlllT Sim J'^T T^Y ''^^^'P^^'^ there. There is a derrick account tenlLfm. n.H-i '* ■»•'«'''«« *he derricks, he made the purap^. Were thev tende,-ed for or did you put m ne w pumps?-A. This tender was exclSsive of timbeT r(" wif . tenilev was exclusive of timber ?— A. Yes with the deJliuT ThTlilH VT^r "^^'^ '^^^^ '« ^' »"^«'««'i *" this manner Tp^^nLf^ 1 • . u "^P"'^ ^^"^^ '•'*<' * complete derrick.— A. It would look like JoveSentsSoD iS^'H*^" timber for th'e^c derricks were prepared at the fy Mr Parent fut I^L^fJr.r'''T'"*'"'"'^ "^ ^'*'' '^^P"*^ '"•"'«*«r «* Ottawa we.rexnEd to" Mr sfhreTbt "" ' "''* P"''"' *' ''^^ *""^- ^^^ *'' ^^^^^ ^'^-^^ Q. Did not your specification show a complete derrick ?— A I forffat now Tn Sreiberfo?iK,!;r^ ^''"J" V»P}' «'«''» abstract th,it wa, .abmitted to Mr. That is Mm.r R™f 'i^ ;» "V"; ''?':™'"- ?''J' """'"I'". »«" to.i capacitv, 1346. "^^ ''*^'°,^u^® '""•^'■' prepared by the department. ^ understanding O W-'i*r^'*'*^~^.- McDougald, killer Bros.; I forget the others. Q. Were they supposed to tender on that basis ?-A. They were y. jNot accordingly as it is invoiced there?— A. Not accordingly as it is invoiced them^up "^'" ^"'^ "P "" '^' '^'''''^' '" *»>« «^«P. d''! yo" ?-A No! theTfitted Q. But you made all the timber ?— A. Yes pum?s-a^dX"logs™nd':il^.'°' ^' ^^^"^ ''^'^''-^' ^-' ^ -«^« -- -tra ■fl„o?" 5°^. '"«"y derricks did you build altogether?— A. I think there were five ?wo ivhlT"^'-' ^°^ *^^ ^' *•'»■«« o°«-ton.an^-half derricks I know thlre were Indflllt^**°7'7 ^ope derricks, and three or four thtee-ton hand powederrTcto the cSntfacT?*^nid"fr^i^^ ?"L' Oompany^you bought sdCe engines outside fngiS^n^d poJ'e'ii ?'lVT'?.«'.ilf;'il't'^^^^^^^^ ^*- ^''^ ^^'''^ to b«y extra "qj. With regard to this cement business, did voa see these t«nrtflrBl>w.A T «», looking at a tender submitted by Mr. Douglas, wifh "refe^nSeTo ^eme;?,^^ 20th m .eJ'o^JLZ r:r^c\llT "'""'^' ^^«» ^- -"'J ««t it fo.. •2.60?-A. I abo«?;hlw' t S: A^eLTnlffi^^^ o^" Ji'^^^^ -t"^- the 17th March, the telephono. I unked if Mr. A en wL nitent «Lf h*' "■'} *^'" ^*«''«« """^^'^'i came to the telephone and answer^ me f told him -w'*"^' ^*'*'.''"^ ^•' P"*"' in^' the muHonry on the south «idool%he canal T.'r ^« «'"«''««^y »« «t«rt build- ready now." Mr. Parent was auroi ised anH fn?H L ^® '*°'l^'' abutment-we are 'We are ready for cement, a^d w?': ^'^Sin^'for'it •' ' He Sf/^'^P**""*- .^ ""i^^. . thuiff until he came up. He came no to th« M^«i ? !' u •? ^°''* ™® "^^ to do any- \Ve f^ad all the excavation competed anS wore reaiv^r.. '.'^^".''i^'" *"*'^«" »'°»^- him if he had done anythin/about conTrnnHn ,^ '"'"* '"^^ ^'^^ ^"'■'«- ^ ^ked Further than that, several paTties h^ oomo tn M* «* '!'"""*' *"^ '^^ ^old me. no. asked me what brknd I though wLbeTaVd I oMk- '" ^P^'l'^fbout cement. He was the be«t. He «aid th»t the o^lv on« ?n ^.'^''^.^h"" t^at I thought this brand sufficient for the requirement .was^cSallv Th/.'f^ ''K^*'*''u'* '^"^"''ty of that two hundred barrels, and so on So tSou^h Mr T^""}"^ * hundred barrels or to MoNally to send us Nome cement that evfninl J"','*".*' approval, I telephoned which he did. I think we usiTd twLfl I ®^®V ^ *? "'"'"^ ^O'^ the next morning ing or the first thin' thT next moS h«!n'^ °" t ^'"^-^ ^''''^' '''^'' *•>«» «^«"- of the 18th March. ^ moining, because we started to build on the morning By Mr. Vanier : Q. Did you use white cement all alonif ? A am -i« Claggett sent us ten or twenty barrelsSoinrn^hfr^^^ *'"'* ^ think Mr. man-I think Mr. Bellehouse'and Di Ion oMhev Iv k"'' *?"" ^«"-. '^^^'' «n«tber -sent u^ some. I know • he cement Inf' hi p./ f?^ ^"""^ ^^*." "^^ing for Claggett may have been sent b^ iillSse fS m^n Tfh" ^^ "°^ ^'J'*'* '" '''^ "«'»«; it barrels of White Cross cement ifi "'•'."H "^^ "^^^ twenty or thirty for cement. "®°^- ' *^°'' '•^ responsibility whatever in contracting £1/ Mr. Douglas : hired^den-icK of dgft?econd hXTrXl^^'^'m'''-^ 'V''^''' ^"'^ ^^^ "-t have I do not think'so. Thf work had to bt'Tn. -'"^u '"* ^^'' ^^^ P"'P««« ?-A. No; nature ; in my oxperJencTdf .tting Slrfcks Tt 'wo"ul7hr^ ""1 "' " ^^''^ ^^^^^ what I call contractors' refuse. We had on« Jn«f o^ . ^*t "^ o**^ dangerous to take year, were a de.-rick that was rented fromTZ/rf ^*^ f^ ^\- *'"^"«' break last the other hand, by paying from « 2 to «^^h- T "'''^'''' ?" ""'^ '^'"^^ » ^an. On that was to last onfy ^twf or Three months L^?l7 "T *?"■ "^ '^^'"''^' ^o d, . work ricks, and then you wou^S have nothTn? Sft whi ' '' ^'"^o.tas much as new der- are in possession of a compKaSd fir"! clas^ ntn Th«?'?'' ^ '^V""" ^'^^ government in the week, because they are a^wayfneceL^^^^ T'^^ money every day canals under the department. ^ necessary on the Lachuie canal or on other . ByMr.McLeod: Q. Here is a letter from Mr. Parent to you, of the 15th March irqq . chief e^ngtCrVet^Iy^JfCS^^^^^^ "^-^1' ^'re^ved from the works. Rates are Sged on thefoll Jn^^ F'**?^ ^'"""'^ railway bridge day, good labourers with &?nrshSni 50 ant to do any- lalf an hour. >rk. I asked told me, no. cement. He t this brand tity of that i barrelH or telephoned ct morning, ' that even- lie morning I think Mr. en another orCiaggett is name ; it ^ or thirty lontracting (1 n(>t havd ?— A. Xo; ery heavy IU8 to take break last man. On di ' work ) new der- ivernment Qvevy day r on other from the ay bridge 1.87i per urers can led for by St. Louis d to me; 199 r •'"'i ^ a" a?""^ ,\^^^ '?''°"'° ^^"^ ^'i® labour was to bo asked for from Mr St Louis?— A. Should have been osUed? ' "'* Q. Should hove been called for from Mr. St. Louis ?— A. Yes sir shouS b?askcdt.tt\t'st''' "''^'^"^ '' ''" ™^"' ''' '"^ ^"" ''''"''• '""^y Q. You understood that?— A. 1 understood it. By Mr. Vanier: ™„. i^u y°.." ^*T ^'^^^ ^^** Heveral witnesses toHtified before the commission thut den??i1.'rd"id "'"'^'" hou.e by canal employees while you VorrsL'L'lUen! havolti?'"''^^'""'"^ explanation to furnish with regard to that matter ?-A. I wn. 1?'. ^® '**'"''' i"'® *° ,''^'*'' •'^-^- Tl»e first time I ever thouijht of havinL' anv SiUaS IrjlT' ^^ ""^ ?""! «'"P'«y«°«. I gave strict iStructlTt'o K work« ?n' fh„ V t'^^^P^'"' 1''^"' ''' P'"*'^ ''"y man'slname who was working ott" the works on the Luchmo canal for myself or anybody else, on the irovornmont liHt No man had ever worked at the house to my knowledge or' Tth my*'inIeS with, out bejng paid by myself or by my wife, even if men wore woSng at my house whof. they were paid on the canal. For instance, in the spring t mo wh^n I could no remember at the end of the month-I did not have as^oo^d a memory as M Baillairgd-it might be possible that a man's name might have slippeTin on thai list, but not to my knowledge. If there is any one to blame for it I tCk he time keeper should know enough, and be competent enough tTgo according to instrTc: was told bvoTerT t?hf n'^'h- '^''' \' 'T''f '°™« *»»'"«« ^° the oSfe h^ro and was told by others to be on his guard. Ue also stated that one of his reasons for being so much against the superintendent was because I expected him S be there at seven o'clock in the morning and s7- vorked as a time-keeper and travelled over a hve mile section four times a day and took the time every time I went un and down in the forenoon and the same in the afternoon ^ ' ^ -By Mr. McLeod : Q. Without a horse ?--A. Without a horse, and went through a railroad too SswZd'tes wt?ch^rwl°\ 7"^ Kennedy on the work at sevf n o'cbck an^U^ n^. u I ' ^!t' ^, ^ "^"^ ^^^"^^ ««ven and after six. He said the reason whv I aTrSfrveTinm«t'p ?'^^ ^^-.^^'^tl hod a horse and drove fl^re Mr BfiU Quafte nfVmS f. • fu""^ ^'", °' !'^^^" y*'"«' ^ '*°"'* think he lived mor. than a ?h« « fw . ^* ^f,'"'^ *''* °""*'' ^""^ •' ^°"'^ "o' '"»ve killed him to go according to ba^kTgTht blVfaS:"'"" ""' ^° "^ ^° ''' "'^'•'^ '^'^'-^ Beven^o'clock an'Igo By Mr. Vanier : Q. Don't you think it would have been less risky to have employed outsiders to tZnTJxZ^f' ^r ''«»««?-A- ^'^^^^^y it ^«"ld not look soSiSs One reason that I did not was that I could not find the labour. I live on the front of he cana at C6te St Paul, and am very little acquainted in Cdte S !paul I cou?d not tell you the name of one street. I know but few men there apart Som thesoTo 1^11? on the canal. Leaving early i„ the morning I did not ha^e tZ\o go abound t^ engage abour, and it was more convenient for me, if the men on.™ be 4ar^ a^oiS Ibo works, to tase one of them to the house to do the work "^ ^ H. You said yesterday that Deiorimier did not fulfil his contract and delaved you by not delivering the 8tone?-A. That is right. contact and delayed i' ; It 140 Q. Do you remetnber that Mr pAt-Anf «rw>f * that contract as follows :~ '^' ®°* "^^^^ *» JO" on the 2l8t December about "With reference to the place and titn^v^etu j •• he masonry of the new bridgrb^the ?ontl.^^^^ u^ ^^^ '*''"« '«1"»'«J for lorimier that he is ready to comm«nP« ^ i° **^'^' ^ ^*^° *>««" "o«fiod by Mr De to have the necesnary doiicksKnToadSEtonr-:.' Z^^^\ ^^^ wou^do well you consider it would be most advanSus in th!; ':^™«^'ft«'7««P08iti6n where he says : ^ "S**'" «'» t^^e 3rd January, 1893, in which letter to you Mr. Dl&i:T^lZlTo'Zt\^^^^^ -oy of a letter from piers, etc, calling attention to the fact thafnrHf' ^T *t^°«^ Wellington bridge^ otherwise protesting and holdincr theUvLm Jf"''^ ^'^J^^ been Irected, a?d' may sustain on account of this ^nt^ot^^T^T^ZTf^^' ^^i! ^^' d«»«ge« he in the matter since n.y letter of 2l8t D^oemhTirr ' f «"«« ^h«t has been done jou are now taking t«»■« '^ ^'^^ «f document, in your owa 142 A Vamr8?Uvn^o.°n ""' '^''^' ^^*^^ ^''^ *»»« documents. J??/ Mr. Atwater ; By Mr. Vanier : unde?oa'fhTriTouTdTo^r'i,"^ara^^ --t be believed tocallanymanape.?u erXtlwo^^ } ^ould not like ability a8_a time-keeptr. ^ ^ confidence in his memory or Q. His ability as a time-keeper is another thino. Ac +„ u- be^^prove. -,« .bat be b». 4e= o„r 'f,', t°^_^„,'"^ "l;; SSfec^" 5y ilfr. Douglas : for att?'rCA"l¥LV?hlTs!ro" £h?ronk \«'r^« ^^ appropriation physician here to get a 7oomm9ndatioTto ^^^ll*^° Baillairg^ went to a certain time-keeper, that ifis health was bad an/hl^ ^"" ''^^'l^^^ ^'•o™ ^^^ canal as ent reasons. ^"' ^'^'^ ^"'^ '^'^ '"^"o^ ^«« bad ; and he gave differ- By Mr. Vanier : hi. beam w., bad o„M„„f „tt«;^rj^U rSblf '"° °' "" "'-• ' "»' '' o w. r^'" ?!° I"?.',"'' '-A- Tbat was Dr. Aubrey of working. "''"' J"'' """«"" f™ complaining against bi> style A. I t^el^'g^HTCplerd"'"^ ""' *'"'°""' """" "" I"""-- '"Ployed ?- Q. Will it be ready on Monday? A T thinta^ tu the notes, but I think f had better Uke it complete '' ^^' * ^'"^ ''^^"^ ''^ ^i' ilfr. Douglas : Q. Did you find any time sheets ?-A. I found quite a lot of them. By Mr. McLeod: yo^S.llX'^::TnX:i^^S^BZ^^^ ^fj *he classification ing the classification ?~A. Sometimes I dif '^ll^ had nothing to do with mak- a question between man a^d ra^n wA..« hnf^P ''^'"^ *'^'^" "*"'« memory, it is statement against B^SJiS ?r Bailtermaki?'^.''. ^**''' ^"^ '^ ^ *" ™«^i'>ff * must be rigft and the othS wrong sf^aTSa end nf *""""' against me, one of us never remember what the men worked for ^rS^^t"*^."*^ «^«'T month Baillairg^ could to be put on the back of all the ^me H«S «, J k -^ " "" *'®';^^° **»'°g that has got that ^an could nev'er ?ell what tirmrwlre workLTat' "hJ ""'1 * '^^«?J°^' ^^^ give him the headings. Mr. Lesajre and M? Dn.hn^ ' ^^"'^ ^ """"^'^ ^ad to think a great many of those notesS be trS«H i;""*>°«"«««^ ««" testify to that. I emanated from hiiself *°®'^ to«o°»e one else, and that they never 143 ^ot aa good a » ?--A. Yes, I ?--A. I think t be believed ould not like 8 memory or smory, it has maelf?— (No ippropriation t to a certain the canal as 9 gave differ- him that he "nd ; that if oes not look nst his style tnployed ? — od many of lassification t with mak- 3moi-y, it is t making a 1, one of us airg^ could lat has got ;ading, and if^'if bad to to that. I they never ^u- Q.Oould you mention the som-eone?— A. Yes. I think I mi"-ht ^o th^f f„r. r iKai^rtrxf to'f r"" i'""' s« r«'- «« ^-dtldK^^e^tlord by Officials in the office to take notes. Mr. Lesage came in and denied it. ^ By Mr. Douglas : ^hn^'^l said there was a man in Laohine who told hira?_A. He did not mention who It was in h,8 evidence. I could not swear positively that I heard tho™e men post him to do It so and so. I have my suspicion of who those men were. By Mr. Archibald: if vnJni ^''f^r* ^^''""^ \u ? '^ 1 1^'?*"® ^<"" suspicion. If you know anythinir sav so • tongue *"^ ^"^' '^^'^ ^^"' tongue ?-A. Then I will ha^ve to'hofd my By Mr. Atwater ; Q. You do not know anythi, g ?-A. I do not know anything. ^..e ^"t ^.^^ ^^® ^^7 statement you want to make, I would like vou to make if before I put any questions to you?-A. Well. I never prepared an^stlmeSt to Q. Do you mean a statement in writing?— A. Any statement of anv sort There is a question abo- ,h^ lock No. 1 stone, and I want to relieve mvseff of a certain amount of resv .bUity and blame attaching to it When ™ received a notification from Mr. P^xnt that stone was to be cut for lock No 1 I gave M^ St Louis and Villeneuve instructions to have that stone cut in Jacques's shed M^nrJl ;,««•» sheds proper, and have Nos. I and 2 sheds for the "utttnlTf the Gmnd K stone, and Nos 2 and 3 for the finishing of the cutting of fhe s one fo??he new Wellington bridge. The first reason is that it would give me aropportunitvTf defining on sight where the stones were being cut, and would also ^Fve « ^an .n opportun ty on sight of counting or checking the m'e;?an7know W ff i whicTwoJk iZTt'^^ '^r- . ?"' \\^^.oy^^r^ed in The matter Stone werf cul for IociTno 1 and for the Grand Trunk bridge in one and the same shed and were so mi vin n« that no man could tell for which work it was being done. ^ By Mr. Archibald: ««f o?" "^^9" °i««V^ u''" n«* acquainted with the sizes of the stone?— A No man not acquainted. You have to be well acquainted and have experience as fnenjirer wL« „ . T\°if' ''•^ «ont>-a«tor's foreman to be able to decide from the way a stone TsriaTrs'oSingXl^^' "'^ ' ^^^°^ '' ^"^^« «^«-' -^^^'^^ ** ---i^ tZ M. S" T^**®. tj^^-J^eepers would know for which work the stone was being cut?— A Mr. St. Louis's time-keepers should know, and my time-keepers could onlvfo through Ihi.'t'*^' and count the number of men and in their judgmenrwould^SetiSe for ,Y thhtT f'^ 7^*^''*' "i^^'^^^' As to the question of that stone Tost ng so much if the stone for lock No. 1 was cut in Jacques's sheds, it is about three feet from the wall of the canal, and could have been transported from the sheds wTth deS^ a? very little expense and on to barges and brought down to lock No 1 whereas under the circumstances in which it was cut, it had to be handled several timl By Mr. Douglas : Q. That is not what I am talking about. That handlinrr ia iha n-irt-o „ * usual ?-A. But then that will add to^ what you are talking aUt. '" '°'* ^' By Mr. Vanier: A m; S? ^T °°V!Po.^'t on the progress of the work last winter to Mr. Parent ?- A. Mr. Parent received instructions from Mr. Schreiber to send him weekly reports. 144 SSL7r»,C^^^^^ -eeeive tHat info.- to ^r. Parent. Mr. Parent was on Ko^k looS'^"''-.'''*'^' were^made verbaZ many men were here and there, and ' 'oTd h im ?n t £7'^ 'V*°'* ^^"''^ ««'^'"« bow Q. I 8ee here a letter written by Ir PflZ/^ '"^'^ "[ ""^ «?'"'«"• he s«y« :-.<. I again draw your Xuion 'to^re Jalt ^Z '° **•" ^^'"^ ^"«»>' '« which % Jfr. Douglas: by the superintending engineer. ^ ^' ' ^*- ^<^"'". "nd it was proved here £y Mr. Parent : Mr. McLiiOD.-.What are you sjSaking of? letter L„rpre73i?er "" ° "°'"''''"'" '"'«l» "^ Mr. St. L„„i, ,„ o«„™ hi, that he had to go fro™ on. *7to Sh*"' ''° ""^ "" "'""O' '» ™k properlv, Sr-S»r;ilH?'''',;''°»™' I '■-»'-«"■' "fit. Mr.- KtSrif^h^totr aKT?;,"^^ '.-r/'-V" "'k'' '« ^ "" '"^^ nto Jacque,'. shed and .Tacques'sshed™, rnL,^. f ' °°'' ""» ''«»l«' alterwarde U.ere, and then when the watr^BirthS"! W" ™A'''r'""''"»»''l«»°«it iSrcn"S""°- * °°"" ""' «-P'»i» ab^u-o^'n'ttr". ^e^'i^L™ .he£e£*Xr',Je"L';^h?.tSe:rtS';:;,!i'- '" "■»' '« "anted I do not Mtaetly remember the whole letter *° '^'■'"" "»» "ked to another, fL'oif '^H"''""'""-^^^^^^^^ ^-7. so Ujnst a. easy the other shed. ^ ""^ ^^^" >" the morning as it is to stay in % Mr. Archibald : r=trtrtrrrnir.itrr"r'^-^^^^^^^ and January, to do thew worta M^'pTrenUva, l°f J", "" '"™"'» "f Dedber ■• ?',','";■'"•.''»» " »"« """l I was at one I tMnt T ^ '" »."""'' "■«» meetinS ™ iS/Jh ?"!;»""»■■» in Mr. OgHvie's office ' """ """« "«" """i"?. whTh conversation, and %e decid^,Lat w" would'". ll\"';.^'"""'"' »"j I b^ ' dissuade the goremment from ieltinrihrw.tr i?„?,'h ''' I>',":P<>>» of IryingtS Becembor and January, and to have itV^TlCl^^t oTil^h^rASi^' 145 Q. When yon wore in Ottawa (ii 1 m v nn„ ." ''"""' '" ^''^ "P'""'^' t''""- take charge oAho builcii,;, of Zw iSon brh^ 'T t V'^'^'^^'ir^"" ^""'^ and Mr. Parent had an interview S M Tr, lorn. {7^; T S""*^"' i^'" <^^'"^'« not present. When thevcamonnf Afr T-... ^'^""f"' "'/if- Trudoau s otHco ; [ was to m^e to ank me I W^)uT accent i J nSnn "* """ "'^^' "'".'''"'"' M'' Motho.riM work. I told Mr. MotherHili that T » ?„i5 ^"."" o.^^rseer and take oi.arge of the Mother.iII'H office and Sd out wbrwir"^'''^ u^'' ^^y"^''^' camo into Mr. conditionH, take charge of it rtcateTf" vfrtf ko";rJ ^' 7/:' ' " ^''''' '"'"" ">« an interest in the -.nal in vou. S.Vn^n « 'ar^'o of the work, having such the work forward i.^ o" de ' to have t| e watSr i:;"f ""°"J""t you will try to\,ush Mr. Currnn said : No, that ho should noTt^fl- a '"'"' "" "?" ^''^ ''"^ ''^ ^"y." conditions I should know \U,rthev w« J i^/ influence me, that if there wore any probably my position Vou d be at S^anl rfh.u!^'" '"'''' T "."•'«'■t"''^ '"- f did try to force me, but irwiuld 1 ke fery mS EKronVf r^^''^' ""V"'^ ""^ spoke at some leufeth about our abilfty MrParent^sZd 1^^ ^ charge of it, «„d ho If we wou d take chaitro of it th« wnrl' ™^ 1 1 k ' ■ "^^ ""'"' ""*^ heknewthat take charge of it. ^ ' ^^ '^"''^ '^^"''' ^® completed. Finally [ consented to Q. That was in the month of October ?— A. Yes. By Mr. McLeoil .- By Mr. Emard ; paidtr^r tkrw"tr'worrt:rtrb7d';>-nettr*^"^^T^'^'"^«^-^ who their own convenience °"® ^^ ^^^ ^''"^'^ Trunk Company for Q. But the government had to pay for it ? Mr. ATWATER.-Not the superstructure .new bridge was to be^uilt „„ the oM pier of the 6r«,T+r,, ?'"» ""t"";'"' "■"' thMtheold bridge that w«, tlien in use for th. (5r?„rfV f ~t?°' ' ""•"'"''''''l structure ».. to & extended on Cl".ZX otfl^ll^li^ ^ZZ' Z'S By Mr. Douglas: no u^ i^«-n;rd^f K7et proVaCt-^nrjira ^i.r.'bX-'» By Mr. Archibald : ^' . Ji oj^^r''d"f;'„?r;Se'ndiroVt^^^^^^^^^^^ -'.-». [■! 1 1 146 A w 'ii^t T." '"'*^ ^*'" ^'','' •^^'"S a^^raid of submitting to Rome conditions ?- A. Well, t he conditions were tl,at any man of common sonse, or having any prac- tical l« ""--'- m M 148 L uiH and Mr. Parent went to Ottawa, and f im«,e.liaU.|y foun.l out tl.at they hii oomo toadoc.8,on to k«vc Mr. St. Louin the supply of all the labour, p " k a shovel men, and skilled labour and teams ' ^ Mardi^""* '''''^" **''' ^'"" *'"'' *''"' ""f'-A. It must have been in the beginning of Q. Who told you th«t?-A. I think 1 got that information from Mr. I'arent oK„i.." ^'J' you got a letter from Mr. Parent in relation to the 8ubjoet?-A. The uhn^f .1,? M ;" i^''"'" '"""■" ""Y*"""' '«"«'■•'• T''«'« '» "'«o one that explains about .loubio and siukIo teams and derricks. Then there is another one previcus to this, >n he early part of the works, for the supply of stone-outters and stones T th nk I Jh"*" ^P'"*'" ^» ^'•- 1 "'""^ your J'«««''t f'om that plan of operation? -A. commm. laKr. """"' '""'"" ''^ «'"" ""' " '^""'""'^ '"^ the' furnishing of Q. Did you express that dissent to anybody else ?—A I did Q. How?— A. Well, I expressed it by a letter. Q. To whom did you direct that letter ?-A. I directed tny letterto Mr. Curran Q. Have you got with you a copy of the letter ?~A. I think 1 have. Q. Will you produce it?— A. I will. By Mr. Douglas : Q. Did you meet Mr. Drummond about it?— A. Yes. I now ,>roduce the l.wto,. dated Montreal. March 12th. 1893, and 1 will tile a copy of tiriCas C 75. ' By Mr. Atwater : Q. That letter addressed to Mr. Curran is dated the 12th March ?— A Yes . * r ■^ow-;j;'ly'^» take communication of the letter from Mr. Parent to" von I do not"rememt.er '■^' ""^ '"^ *''^'"" '''''''''^ '^'' "'•'«'"'^' ''^ ^''"^ lotter?iA! Q. It is part of exhibit P 3 (reads the letter). Accordin« to that letter vn„ had not.ficatU on the Hth I^bruury of that contract, did you not?- A Xrob nothing mentioned there about pick and shovel labourers Q. No, there is not. but on all other classes it is mentioned, is it not?— A Yes , Q. I see you state in this letter addressed to Mr. Curran : " Imagine thSr ti^i ing to place pick and shovel labourers, whom I employ at 81.26, at il.SU." Is that true? Did Oioy over try and place pick and shovel labourers nr^n yJu at that price ?-A. There were men gett ng «1.87J that I could have omplilye.Ut « 25 Q. You say pick and shovel labourers were placed upon you at 81 87A Wore they over sought to be placed on you at that rate?— A No ^' Q. They were placed at 81.50, wer they not? (No "answer) compLni. '* '* complaint you a.ade about it?_A. Yes. the first verbal By Mr. Vanier: Q Did Mr. Curran ask vou to write any letter on the subject ?_A Yes I spoke to him about It first, and he told me I had better write a letter. By Mr. Atwater .- mu 9- .^"V®" "^i^ T''" ^'^^ ^^^^ »''""* ^^^ 'ftbo»'' being given out by contract ?—A The fii-stl heard about the pick and shovel men was in the month df March Q. This letter to you was dated on the 17th February ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Archibald : Q. Did Mr. Curran give you any answer to that letter?— A. I think he answered by telegram. ^ > a., l tniuK ne 11!) t thiU Mr. St. that tlio}- hiid )ur, pick nii(i ho^inriing of [v. Parent, ct?— A. TI»o and pick ami lint oxpiaitiM provioiiH to jtomw. oration? -A. liirniHhing of Mr. Cnrran. ce tlio lottcr, * C 15. A. Yes. I'ont to you letter ?— A. i letter you A. Tliero in t?— A. Yos, } tiieir try. rj." Is that ^ou at that at $1.25. 87i. Wore first verbal ■A. Yes. I I tract? — A. irch. thinic he Q. I).;l he not write you a lottcr ?_A. I atn .,ol .luito suro. By Mr. At water : f i.nf ?,;i^""„"-"'"' """^'V"* N""<*""oiit ill this letter of yours to Mr. (^irran You n,iv tiiat (his will inereahe tho cost of tlie work 75 nor cimf NT,.* \\ ,. • -^ little oxaK«oratoti, is it not? ' ^' ^'•"'' "'"' »^»'«n>«''t '« u Mr'' A Jwl'.i'i''"T.' "''•''""' •" •!■'""'■ V".«''''^^'-'"« i" "'y oxHun.uUion. stu.omnn.7.n.fr .• i'"'"" " ''"'''"'' '"'-''^ "* M'^'Htion the witnoHH witj, .war. I to slatementH mado which arc oxIravaKunt and wild. >"Kani lo Mr. Aroiiiiiai,!).— Vou will have an opportunity of do] nir it Mr. Atwateu.— I want to take the oppoilunitv ru)W mo Thai th.t ihi... ., i cloared up at .Irs. When ho comes horl/an.i m^Liri/ tutm, aS Zo c^^^^ ln,l I h'''ir'' ''° ''"" V""'" ^''" '^•"t""""'t tl'Ht the ooHt <.f the wU is iKin^ inoreasod by 75 per cent, I want to (Ind out if that is c.rrect * Mv. AKOiiriiAM..— It may l.o an exa^^Koration. state '""''''"""'"^ know it is an exaggeration, and that is what I want him to Mr. Curran received the lot.er in person?— A. Ho Bi/ Mr. Archibald: Q. Do you know where received it hero in Montreal. Q. The reply was dated at Ottawa?— A Yes Q. The House was in Hossi.m at tho timo?_A. I bolievo it was ti. 1)1(1 you have any conversation with anyhody olso rela.inir to tho m.lf»«.. ahnost immediatelv afterwards ?_A. I ha.l with Mr. brummin 3Mr ' uZ^ f -^l";' ^'^'' Mr.Ogilviein Montreal ?-A. Yes I did '' He di^j. **''''"" ^"" *" ^"' ^" ^'^'*'^'* ^" """ ^''"'' """'J ^^ ''""0 »bout it?-A. Q. What did you do upon that?— A. I went to Ottawa. and Canals? " ^^IT "'''/i'^* /«" ""^ ".'**?'"* ^'^ *«" ^' ^''" '^ei.artmont of Railways lo thJt I sh^iiti Jo '"''' '" ''"'' ''" "''^'••" •"■ ^^- ^'"'•™" """ Mr. Drummond L A rr*?" '^"'^ ^'';?" ^"" ^^^ *''®''" ^''^ ^''ey «ilvise you, the throe of them totrothnr? iuf.:j strereTacjr^' '^^-"- ^""^ ^^^ "" "'-^^- :^:h tKni A. iV" *''^ '*""'"" *'*■"'""*"« ''''"'"' '^''^ y"" have any conversation with them ?- Q. Of what character ?— A. Relative to the work. H' ^p "t'vo to this particular feature of the work ?— A Yes m,..i.m !h.t what M,-. Keiinodj.'. privat; riowTay tte b"! I K h'ink'h. r„JL,.. "^^ , I ' ^'- '^'•""^y "«» fosponMblc and accoanuble. lial Mi- Kmnidv fif ITf^ '° ""u" '?"'" ""y I""""' «' «™plamt to Mr. Piren" who wa^Z ob..f. and ftom whom he wa, to lake hi, Inelruc'tfona. He neve? wSe"Sy Kr w fc.: m 160 of inr;oHM 'r ;.;T. nTtL 'h,ril"n ^I'-^'^^'V"^ Hl,..WH a romarUal.10 amount, lulmitH that Mr. Ilairirart was ().moHo,l to h^ll\ . Hoi n il.or .1. hin ovidoncit horo Noo how tho«ovornmS iH t^^rScLJui t^ r "'''"• "^"l'" ^'Vk- "" was oppon^rto hi Zt^^ul; Z7n^ tC"".^- .'" ""^T''^'" an.! if Mr. Kennedy 8 join^JoBtZ thnM ^ '" T*""'' ^ '"• '"'"'^ ^"^ n'iminlHtered and of cS^^trM^A^ hitrdT'a"t C yoHteniav, Lulo as«ertionH, whether the golmi ai ert tl of ]ir S .mm '^^ '" ^"'•^''"" "'• Kennedy a, ul Air. Archibald wan Htr£rthotol^.^ft^n"'* '"'" T''V\ ^ ""^"'•Htand that I.. wl« ™'' ""^ '"*" • '™'' »">■"'••!<>". ."'1 he c«„ giv. my '.Si By Mr. Vanier: shouSVo^f^rtfe-KCsmit^^ •' r^ your intention that the letter -A. TeB. transmitted by Mr. Curran to some member of i'arl lament? By Mr. Archibald : u. 4-.pr.>rxzJ!o^'„f.i"2zt.'°'-^\%"' - "■• '»'- ^-^ "«-■• ir.i Q. "Vo" »h""Rl>t you oonid Kot no croxloni, for iho amount, ihn work would coMi. ' *^ '"' (i. Why , \hl vZZl oMhe'wdrk."'' "' "' ""'' '"''"« '"'"'■' """""' "'' '''" '"""' ^""'•' '"-"HnVlho rmt Q. ConHidorahly y — A. Yoh. By Mr. Douglas : A T?;„'?'^n'.MT''l ''" ''^" ini-r^nNOH, tho increttHo in tho amount of tho contract ?- BtnnccH '^' '""" '^''"''" ^'"■"'' """"''' '"■"''"^'>' ''" »•"'"'• ^''"''' ''i'-""m- % Mr. Atwiiter: w n^" .^'*". ^'".'^ ^'""" '' ^^"'■" "^« '"°" P"^ «" who.0 three would have done o.i th« Wellington br.dgo ?-A. Thoy we.-o, fo, thoHc imHonH *^ «„. . ^i W'" ''"^'"' T:"." '" «"ythat7-A. Whore thoy could have worked yoH ; where th.eo men would havo dono under the ci.cumHU.ncos ' q. Do you moan to Ray there wbh two-flfthH mo.o labour omnloyed tha.i wn» nocoH.ary on tho Wellington bridge ?-A. Under thoHo circumHtanJe. J3y Mr. Archibald : »..u KniP" •^"'} i^'"}t ^'"*J' ^^'^ ^"^^ ^*'»^' ^^« l"»>ou.-erH would kn..w that mo.-e mot.er rontedTfr'Thov S' 't^"''i^"" '^^y WO.C getting, would render them IS tented^— A. Iheydid. and in human natoi-e that kind of a thing hiuJ an effect They always find out whore tho pay in coming fi-om. '^ ' ih^i ?ha «^? "^"m l^" '•«a»o"8 why you thought, at the timo you wrote that letter that the cost would bo so greatly increased ?— A Yes ' 8tateme?t*'in^]![.ii*l«;^""*^"^''^f "'""«*'*" b,idgo, you are of opinion that your Btatement in that letter was greatly ove. -estimated ?— A. Yen. ^_^ ^. - snpposn yon were a little indignant at tho tiiuoyou wrote it 7— A. A little thev^not^''"fTn'!rf^"'''*'"'?''*'''*"^.l'*"P*^'^''^''' ^^^^'^'^ '" ^»'at condition, do inoy not /—A. bometimes ; I generally do, unfortunately. t4 m^f 152 irresponsible for thut contract. ""'' ^- ^ '^"'^ *'"»'' ^r. Piirent should be held By Mr. McLeod : Q. For the labour contract ?— A. Yee lir By Mr. Vanie, . fort?at"o7trlctfrun'df!tand-*'"'^~^* '^^''"^ ''"gotiations, or the arrangement Bi/ Mr. Atwater: I to St kn.?wt;rarM75l'S;^J^J't?Ottawat7h T '''«^' «^"to._A. I do . M.^H«,gart, a.d the ^oZ^ ^Z:^-^^:^'^^;^^^ know, iber ami and Mr. By Mr. Archibald : question. "npiements C— A. I do not understand your wre kepi. „„ the g,om,d ?-A Umnfori fn ll ^^ ""' "?''l' ''°'' ""' ""> "wl" be founj. and the most competent '^' ^ °'""'°°' "" >"" "«'" 'h"' <»>"I<1 A. iSyrirreteeThteirr ''°"™°'" "^-.r.ereineh.rge^- nameToS-eCtfi Z? ,e!,et,°lS«[,t':r'.t'rr' ' ""°' "'"l"^ "- MiietanlK ?-A, There wm one there MlSFll„„'f°7°'''"'!'"' J'"" 'mmedi.te c„t«*.^^" eh.,.,e d,d ,00 ,i™ him";!^r' ShYd' Sreh"a^"t?".'ffthe .tone- .h..?el^isrhreL?4i^:e''r;„*''.r.ft^ef„o7i'r^- "^ °^'"">» "r^^-^i. By Mr. Douglas : Q. He was not there all the time, was he ?-A No time^hefsra.ire'? tCt ': iT^^:S"Z^^^^^^^ ' ''"''■fK'^^ ^^ ^he-e f... the He left about the'lirst of ApHl tolfo t" wo'^ for R.fVp"' '*''°"V'^« ^"' «f AP"I- canal. '^ '" «•* ^^ ^°' *^ 'or Hugh liyan on the Sault Ste. Marie By Mr. Archibald : and the preparing of\he different thlkneeZfofS^^^ *^' "^"'°« '^^ the stone! that Ihey were guided by for the furni«h?n , ^ .u ^<'"'"«es- He prepared a plan the builders' benefit. ^ turn.shing from the stone yard to the building'^for re dUcovered ould be hold urrungement . I do know, chreiber and ;mt and Mr. the men and I'Htand your he mon and at the tools I that could 1 charge ? — simply the immediate ii: the slone- I of hina is i-e from the It of April. Ste. Marie —A. Yes, the stone, 'ed a plan ilding, for ^ies? ) smartest epine ? — ugiihn. r Nathan say A Hol; •'■, clever man. ;pvi;;b* lesH of thoHo men that yon '^'.r''^ A. I have to say that I have Jt that they were all conscientious 103 those'^me';;':s^3^ ?--»" /o' any'contraotor -A. Well, if a contfactoJ w.'^r pLced fn th^^^^^^ than you did upon that occasion ? much if there is a contract^ in thrronntrltKo^ ^T,^'""'' '^^* I ^«'' ^ ^«°bt very competent a class of foremen as I h«S on tlf w ..•""'' ^f .^i^^ether as clever or ai like^o have a contact wurtf: same men.^'^'"'"^^^^ '^""^ ' ^^M By Mr. Archibald: very^few'^ntrTh^prSVSm^^ bridge ?-A. I knew but foremen I did no know Ee soLal v S S "' '' %^''?*, "'r ' ™«"' ^he other wofked myself^uX^l^The'irr;^^^^^^^^^^^ «^- ^ falset?emVT:?y\rk^fb:tlT™S^^^ ^-^'^f ri,u,f;v'c=- amount of -A. In my opiniorUt did '''"«*™«ted in order to peiform the permanent work ? in th?s-ctrwCitore%^xrnstr£ ^^ ''""' ^^^"^^««« ^«^« *'^«^' '^' fe>«« works What do you trro'the te3ra ^bTrdrtJ^l'tV T'ui '"'J^'^'''''' '"*^ *''«*• pose?— A I think f hft wArt «K^ * u ^ u^"** ^^^ •'"''* ^ What was its pur- tridge. **'^ ''''"'^ "*'' ^'^^^ ^««" performed without that tempo?ary west^a;t7dt%";:t^S^r^^^^^^^^ When the temporary bridge, afd a ong iurhauliL JL f/« S .T *^' T^'fP^^ back of also raised it out of the canawftMhisd^^^^^^^ '"*"^' ^'^^ *«'''»«' ^* derrick working and loaded it on tnLft "' ""u'-J*" ^^ °^"'^ ""^^ J^e^P the Now, if we had at?omS to cartfhMt t« I P.'l'"*'"^ ^'i'^^'® ^"'^ ^"^ '* «'^'-t«d away, be continually blocSutelves aS we toS h' '"'^T "' ^.^^^f. ''?'^g«' ^« ^^"'d re^def^a^K^^^^^^^ wTout it ^^'"P^'-ary bndge was a necessity, we could nn)t have got along A. N^ ?n'^7o';inion!'™P''"'^ '''''''^' ^"'^* "«'*« expensively than was necessary?- Q. Did it require to be very strong 7— A R did. old cribwork. temporary bridge tearing down that portion of the overieSglJ-i^UhtlTAi' ^''^\ "^ '^t ^'r''' '^^^^ ^^at actually went : « Ullage t A. 1 think we had some stones hauled in there of two and a half 155 «. on. There migh, poiX We Je^'„'l?^„°f Zf™ 'rK"*', "^"^i "'"S^ '"'"''"g "■«' or about the lengS, of. w.^„ 10 „r 15 She " '""'»'■ ^^ '^"" '» '""S""' weo?„,a^^'hrc:irF"'''-— ="-"^^^^^^^^ .o„th® t^o '^but- continualjum. IffhadhKefreedoUofifi.^ ^""'^^ '^'^^^ been a pensed wi'th putting thafplatformln^^^^^^ ^^«"'^ havedis- bankofthecLal.orontCtonath Th^L v^^T ?"' * '^^""'^^ "^ the that platform was in th« fir«f J^i„n k ^ ^f**'"" "^^y ^ ^»s compelled fo put in bridg^e, ther"^r t'e p:ce : to^ ;^^^^^^^^^ -'^^th of^he tem^oraJy spaceofabout 100 feet where wrnirlof^^^^*'''"*™"?^ "®^t *» that was a cfay where we would Lve;3^':„^ler^^^^^^^^^ ^'''^' P"' "^ another reason might be be£ usrit wS h« t Tf ' •""* ''°"":^ P''* ^'^ >*• Then muchtocuttheiceforthesZofSnof. itf *^'>:?' ^"^ it would cost too dam across the canal and thrbottomih! P'"^^^^^^^ I was compelled to put a in so much timber to ^aL a roSv th« f--^> "^ '" ' ' ""-'' ''^^'"^ '^ ?"" wor& moTe ^im^trton'oTtfr" ^j^-''^-- to the oVJt^Lr'iTwould have that ?-r i 8up,™se ther« „r« n?r^' ''^ T^^"' °^ <^«"^^1^« ? What do you say lo aotly the sireTay to wXtn Jr '°"*'*''?" *^ who would go%x^ would have tTe same Serabout if w/TJYo ^'''^ ^-^ '""*''"«* ^«^^' '"^ tw? men any other contractor, he speaks from h^« n^ .^"*"T ^ ?"" ^'^^ ^''- ^'^"'^^ «'■ from his own point of view I doTof knnw .k'"';'''^'"'^^'',^'' ^^" experience, and would agree on the sanii San ThT. *^",*A°" *'°"''' g«* «°y two men who selves p^.eviou8 to starTrn| tE^ Jo^k and'lTvev at'VC ^? ?" ^'^^ ^'^"""'^ ^^em- actual situation and all thf circumslances ' " "" consideration the Beemm-^uS ted%-iP K V wl^'®'"'^^> ''^^ ^^^^ of conducting the works as Mr there. I consider tLtX Dais's nlaniKth« K«7?'k^'^ u °''''. ^'i^' ^'^^ to be put have to be in Mr. Davis'^noSn Inl L 1 ®'*/ ^T ^^^"^ ''^ ^^t, but I would in order to do th^ work acS ng to hL iSr^'w^ ''■,'^' ^™"''''^" P'''"^ ''« l>"« g«t, above the surface, and rSn h'- Kriaf in T; t? '^ """k-*? P"' '''" derricks^li great benefit, but we did not ha^ tramways ^ tramways, wh.ch would have been a the oWifa^on"of'Lng^fi'n rfhoT: til'? ^''''' '^ J"°^" *° y^""*-'^' -'^ ^'th 6 uoing u in so shoi t a time, in your judgment was there any way of 156 doing it without the construction of the false works which vou nut in ? A K« =• thev^forT'"A'''Mi?T!f ^ y^"'" ^'^"^ *« *° *^« necessity of so many; what were the machinists' shop There was a|«o ^tZZZl ^T" , ^'"^'^^'^'ths' shops and By Mr. Douglas: Q. Did they do that?_A. They did, but I did not catch them at it. By Mr. Archibald : the t?miyordid!touM youTavTioLtiL'^J ^°'' '''"'"' *^« ''^"^»*-"« *« -^^ >* - The further examination of this witness was adjourned. The commission adjourned at 1 o'clocic. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 157 Lachine Canal Inquibt. MoNTKEAi,, Tth August, 1893. The commission met at 10 o'clock, a.m. Present : The Chairmau, Messrs. Douglas and Vanier. >n8 to do it in Mr. E. Kennedy's examination continuee .— By Mr. Archibald : By Mr. Douglas : A. Y^s.''^^ "*" ''"'"^ P"'"^ ^^^^^ contractor and working under another head ?- By Mr. Archibald : -A^i St ^'"' ""' ''"''" ^'"'"'^ '°"*''^' '^ '^^ ""'"^^^ °^ ™«'> y«" should employ ? «ffl.^"*P'l^!?'^ employ any men whose services you did not think neofl«s5v,..7 f,^ officer the bndge in the circumstances under which it was built ? A Tn ^ ^ to some of the questions put to me, a false im^rSn ^s oar^^^^ I may say that the excessive number of men empbyed if it ml?t h«? '';j""^ was also owing to the short time in which the woKad' o be co^n eted '"' so ±y^tVZncTn'.'lSy''' '^"^^" "'"^ ^^ wou.d^S'fre employed By Mr. Douglas : Q. He said if the contractor had paid the men and if thn witn«aa u«a -a *l men and had the men under his control it would tLkronlw^.I! *"*? P*"'/^ ^'^^ in five or six weeks, an excessive number of men had to be placed thei^ in S«, ! have the work completed in proper time It would not hiv« !n»!-i ^ "*®' ^^ such a large numbe^r of men ?f tLee or four m^njhs we e gTen w'tt ^e^^i been let out of the canal on the first of December and let if on th« firilJ m ^"^ overseer, superintendent or contractor would be foolish Inmfi *. . ^ May, no large numbe^ of men as were employedirany one time "^^ *" P"* '^'^ ""^^ ^ Q. On the Curran bridge ?— A. On the Curran bridge. By Mr. Archibald : employmg or the conducting of the work was conoernwl. as far as the IW liy Mr. Vanifir: Alclorma.r Nolan who ^hC Z tV;;:r;;;;'o:'\;l"'' ''""^••" '-■-""">'. "'"' "'«^ i« % J/r. Doucflas; now that no political or .nunicipal inlluonco over ha^a.Jy Sril c7vct ,^^^ Ify J/r. Vanier: Q. And no roli,i,'ioiJ8 intluonoo?- Jiy Mr. Atwater: -A. No roIigioiiH infliionco. a sfoiift-iMiffn.. r (i,'.,i I • -^ II'. , "^'' '^'" '■"'">« liiniMo . That man w/m By Mr. Vanier : Q. Dili j'ou put any Irishmen on tho work ? A T .li.i n.. cutters ? I put ,i; Preich Canadianstoo'uS LLl and'GennS """ " "''^"" By Mr. Archibald : Q. Did you have a number of Italians ?— A Vos general administration of the canal, soventy-flve nor cent of th« Zn » i '\'"^ M.'' liciiBAT?" l" havl"t'•„"'^^'\! ''*'"" ^T^^'' ^^^^'•^ ^he commiHHion at all. shouy'beg^!4\^^•KenX^'^^":^^^^ k'h''' ""^^.^-.^''^ opportunity French-Canadians in thr'aSi'ntmZH^.pon'fhfcann """ ^^rnninated against Mr. \ ANiEa.-That question of race is perfectly ridiculous. Bishop" ^— -That queation of race arises ^om'the evidencTgt^en by that man -^^P^^^^ itrST have work* made, you were not governed bv tK>lit,i!,«V fn^A- J a • h V 5 h \t^ y. llave you prepared-* statement" BhowinV what wo^d^'b« th? ''" "^J'ff Curran bridge "nder tho. estimated cost of qZt7t?e"'mTeVSl^.irrh.i^^^^^ 160 nno nidornmn \y, uikI (hilt JH a loUor from *|)oiil(in^' iiiiiii F Htlllod jllHl, nio. lom jtoiitical hut. man whh wiiH K'vii'K Id know him tiH who wore ■y Mr. Ht. n>^ mon who UUHO Homo of M- work, nii(i ould dopoiid lai) OH fllono- liey did not f^lish-Hpeak- "H with my mj)loyo(l on day, jf they ssion at all. )pportunity tod ugainHt who more bo may bo, y that man , you have i the false itutod tltat. 08t of the Sohreiber, JJeomor and J)HviH roHpoclively ?-A. I havo l.oon workinK -i, an oHtimalo for tl.o lant o.ght or ton dayH, an.l workod all yoHt,.,rd,.y attnrnoon, ..ntij a la I , i i^ woI'k;! l.;.:i';!;m::,.!i,!r" ^""""^ ^""••"'' ""•"•"•'-'"" '- ""''"" -•' > »f ./^"i'm""' T''^'''^ "'■ ^v!"*!- •''^' «^"«l would 1.0, under the oMtinmloH I havo i/iv(,n work n the hn.lKO. iluvo you ^ot that ostimato comidoiod V-A \C ' (i, llavoy-.UKol itwithyou?-~A. No, sir; hut/ think wlia'. Mr Archil.aid tneunH.H,havolKotlheMuaMtitioH(brthonun.horotyanlHoC. ■«■ ti,,,V(or . o p.or, Iho numbor of yard, of ohiy li,,. tJ.o two abutmonts an.l .ho nu n ir yn,^ ^ oxpo..t mo to put a ijru,. .,,• „.,. ..^n on wha. .I.oho did roM, or .hould .ost ^ (i, 1 hat iHanolhor point. In the moantin.o, I want lo know what ii would coHt nooo.d,nK to tho.r oH.nnato, Vou havo boon ankod, with ro^ar,! you ulir^ « tone rom Torrobonno in.t..i.l of haviuK it brouKhl l.y ,ho earn. Y.h^ v. tZ ;i;t;i:::itT.t\:;;rA:''rMa^:iX.;'" """- """''^^- '- >"•' -"" -'^ ^^ Q. What d.d you do then '/-A. I roj.orhMi to Mr i'aront Hover.J tirnoHn writiiifj:, and nImoHt ovoryday vorballv. »i«iii. movoim iimot^ in (i. I notice a letlor f.oin you to M.'. Parent, of l.lih of Mandi, IHIW which roadn «« folbwH :_" I wiHh to oall your utton.ion to the fiu't that you hou I Z , m, M J. M. Doio imior to wen.l ,n the balance of the hIoi.o to c..mplet,e our abut'momH' about ono-ha the full amount of copinK for the ;,ivot pior. VVo lavTa.£ k ml cuttorH Kilo. Is that :ho lotter you Hont to Mr. Parent V— A Voh t^. 1 Hoo another letter from Kennedy to I'aront, ni L'Htb March — " I hci, Inav., day next, I am ^oing to asHumo the roHponsihility of takin« Htoim the tiiHt thin./ n morrow, Wednemlay morning, to ^ol tho stouo .nynolf, so that tl o c m haio f the work shall not bo retar. od in any way." Do yol! romomber th eui ?-A b, s.nn '• ^r ' T"" "'''*'' ^'T ^'"*'' ^'■- "«'"ri"^i"'- H'»r of thesUteof affaire at once, «a I havoaU^y 160 Yon wrote this letter and Bent it to Mr. Parent? .11 any event, it wom-j cost more bringing it in by done 80, through another channel. — A. Yo8. Q. In any event? — A team, than it would by mil Q. And your stone-cutters would !>avo r^r-.,'i;n.'d idie ?— A Tt wn„lH luL . * hims?iV?iA"°Hestuvidlnf*''T'^''"^*^^ *« f"'-"5«h the stone ti ment etc '• wfo LTe' nlS ^'7"^^ 'r''''^ "u«" ^'^^l' ^ave VrefeUce fi^employ: -lotor for the performance Q. It looks very much like as if he was the cc work, does it not?— A. It does. 161 >, in such a ;^t::ndsron"P *'•*"'' °^«^-^^^-« *»>**--* out on the work in the shape of Q. Are you aware whether thev HiH an? at , . the^i.S^;-;S^''"^"^^^^^^^'"''"«^'-^- I can give a statement of acal?uI^n\rbTaarswrtrt^^^^^^^^^^^^ I ««-'• made not been returned that were dXered ' ''^^'' P«'*««"tag« of tools had in,A'X"ei .'r;irrn°elri;"c^^^^^^^^^^ ""''^^ '^'-'^ ^^^n on the Wei. a ^«'T iaige percentage o/tooirSc?2con3^ ^ ««» «f7 there has been accounted for, on botE bridges. That T «m « ^a Tt ^^^ ^''''^ '^^'''^ c««not be htolm and carted away ^ *°^ ^""^^ o^' because there has been a lot the ^fiinaTd^^^^^^^^^ ^-n if I did not h..e on the work at the last day of Sifor thl fiTAf m "'^ ''!?'"""' «^*oo'« that were the account of those who de ifered^hVi^fnS J^^^l'^^f.^''" ^^n ^nd out from ».. lo fact I think I can give Vou a satUfac'^^S v aS*** ""? discrepancy or diffe.enc" both bridges, and what is on hind '**''^^'*«'y statement of what was delivered to cann?tguE;s"tSe"m.^'" ''**«"°^ *° *"'^«y-'- %"es somewhere ?-A. Decidedly I duce%it\TeVta^rr1';:;^et^^^^^^^ "^H ^^^^^'"^"^^ ^'•o- ^ -" P- crime to any one to find out thefe is a i^rnr h • "" ^^"""^ "^P everything. It iS no common in all work. '* * '"'' "'^ discrepancy m tools, because that is ofto^:^^^^^^^^^^^^ road work which is going through a wilderness th«V«^-^ are charged with rail- tools or take them away. You ?an somiffma! ^ i '^ °° °"® ^here to steal the throw his hammer into^a ditch where iTwUnntt «^ """, •"i««hi«^o«8 enough to of carrying it with him; but iTyoThave „ ' ^^^^^^^^ «ave himself the trouble that of the Wellington bridge whei-ron h?th !;h«T»!''' *° ^"^ '" ^^^^^ « locality as the general run of fabourers residbg arounS there a r^T " .t P""'' ?'^«« ^^ P^le! ki„ ° , lauuurera resiaine an Dly carry home a pick or a shovfll m- « rTor.rZr' uu""'l"" '^"*' ^"'"'^s may proba- that kind, a much lfl.- ^ '""^h larger percentage of tool! -^^^'tJ.tZ^.TZ^ll^^^^^^ '•anJtrnictr'^r- ^'^^'^-'^ bars were similarly stamped. ' ' ^'^^ P''''^ handlesand the crow- £y Mr. Archibald: j-ith reg.,di th.T„"iV „7 a th.u " lT^Hl^^T^ ""^^ »"«"»«"" be made for the orlbworfe «lln«ti,l M. ii j '' ° """"Od oeito n changes to 18 the remark ho made. ^ '" do the same. I am sure that i II 162 Mr. Douglas.— r>o you mean to say that Mr. Desbaiats had anv cower tonlln»- any changen from the original contractVA. I should think he ffl.^ I am ceS he had, as a resident engineer in charge of the work certain Q. I never heard orit?-A. Of course, I am only giving my opinion. By Mr. Archibald : writtl'n bvT?Tc.h?«iL? li^' f-''\ ^^1 ''.""'• ^^'^^ ^«« communicated to you. d^nitente^; s^^lld t;'e briKdt htJ ^n^^h^i^gTo^^o^^^aS^^^ fi^irkr^o-f^rhar-'^'^^-^' ^-'^^'^'^' li-ite'd'^n^tdlSffi fh«t2;„^l'!I!."^if ""'i'' *,V''«/"i*J«''^^'>'«h has not been sufficiently dealt with I think -A.^1 dfd *^'''''" ^°''^' supply of stone-masons and stone cutters ? .iw.^; Ti!'^ '^~^' .S«°»"8® I always considered that holding the contractor resoon- V A ^^,- tli®. supply ng of that class of labour was, in my opinion the Droner tC to do, for this reason, that at the time of building the mLn^ry and cuuKe stone^ in the months of March and April, pa.ticularly Ibout that timeo?the year InS ters and masons are very busy. A lot of work is given out in spring time and ihetarA ^t^geVntratt :t°e";ira;LtJns'?:j,J;;er'^° ^"^ ^"^^"'^ '^'^ responsi^btejf tt ByMr.Emard: Q. Have you a copy of the invitation for tenders?— A. It must be here. By Mr. Vomer .- O Tin^^'^S.r.K '"^ ^''^ "'^ tenders ?-A. From Mr. St. Louis, Turner & Co. r 1?' mu ® ^^^ ^^^ """^ teaders as those we have?— A No sir And lPflt«r Lyall. There were five altogether. The other two I do not remember afthe moment. At any rate when those tenders were received by m"; I se^t them to Mr Mr Pam^f ?Lf llTr^^'^'"^.' '^^ i.'™^ '^^' ^'' Schreiir issued instruct ons to S fu M «* ^® ^^^ ^''".'■S® ^^ *'^ ^^®8« t^'ings. and I was not to call for tenderR Jsked'to t^ier'ThisJ I?e I'n'l *'°'^"- '' T *''^" *»>«* Bose\ TroUierwere evidence. "''''®'' '*'^' °'' ^"^'^' ""*" ^ ^""^ ^*'«™ l>e»« giving % Mr. Atwater : Q. When Mr. Parent issued the other invitations, did he recall yours ?— A No but previous to mv receiving the tenders from tho^e men, Mr pSs letter of instructions from Mr Schreiber was sent to him, which look the thTngcomieerv jLr- ™>;»^«nds. The tenders were sent to Mr. Parent's office, and he fi^h^r issued t^Ss'^TrouLr:' '"'P'^' *'^ ^"^'^ ^^«^ "«'« ^«^"-^ ^^^ "«> and'^irue" iZ-s belie?e HyliTslZ.''"""' '''' ^"'''"*""' ^'"^ «^°^ °"' ''^^'^ ^"^^ J^«. I ^^ "ot 5y il/r, Douglas ; tatio?s ?o^h«rr'?«nH7,''*''°"*'i^,?°y ':f P'y *" ^'^''^^ '-A. Those that I sent invi- Parent. ' ''"* delivered to me. and I handed the answers over tl, By Mr. Archibald : Ti^.^^r.i'^ *f!-®'' *''?Kother invitations were sent out?— A. I am sure of it because Kose and Trottier I did not know ai all. ' '^"a'*^® i I i 163 )ower 10 allow I am certain ion. icatud to you, i, Superinten- )btaining sup- lersatterthat. twith.Ithink itone-cutters ? actor respon- p roper thing 'ing the stone, Bar, stone-cut- and they are ti'ol a certain ig to having )lying of the :e for all the here. •ner & Co. And Peter miber at the them to Mr. istructions to I for tenders, rottier were I here giving rs?— A. No, t's letter of J completely )ither issued JHued others '^0, I do not I sent invi- vers over to fit, because By Mr. Douglas .- twen^fi'le pTcenf highSr'thin'sumre; Xl Z :ttTrr''' 'V^^' P^P*^. ^^at piece work, you could have got aUoT wanted AThT^'' ''^"''^ ^' «'^«° f«'' answer definitely. It would^ be only KiTess wor7 T J" * «» q»es. now?Jers,ttT;?a^ a7r.;s;[L"aift%rgr""^" ^^'« '-^- ' '-- By Mr. Archibald ; cutters anV8toUma8^orr?-A7i'didI'°"^'** '' '"'^ advisable to contract for stone distiS'tion bet"wSsto'nicSers''a^"d r^^^ '''''^^ ^^^ '«"«'' y«» did not make any two or three montLt^::,"!" and fSund oJt" tJa?l''" ^7^ ^°^ ''^'*«« ' ^X were plentiful. " ' """" °"' *'>»* stone-cutters and stone-maeons ordinVmarkSrjriSef^ft'helfforeTcU: ^^^t""''-^' °'' difference between the ton briSge. and fho pJl' p^fd iJltSctor ? m ^^^/'"^^ "P«" '^' W«"'4- structionoftheCurranbridie LmfKr„— \ ^^'^^ ^^^'^ occurred in the con - furnish the labour ?-I ffikZ eLie^-t an^d mL '^^ ''"'I''''' *« ^ contractor Jo IS to find out in the accounts here wha^^^a paidT ^1'**? way of getting at that srtt^'"'* ^"* '-- ^^- «*• ^oui^a^wtt^^pr; h'l^ ti'z-^sz cost, in labour, had the governmo^rno^g^'n^u^hrorraX'lSr '' ""'^^ By Mr. Vanier : that ^iotnT""-""" '""' ""«' " «« ™™'rav» p., «„. too „„„h o„ SiS ssgr ''"'"°""' '' v.'JrA:'^':A^i, a o'is« Mr. ATWATEB.-Let Mr. Kennedy state now- Mr. AROHiBALD.-That is just exactly what he is eoine to do A. I cannot try to wriirele out nf n«J»kj„ T^ ^ ^ "**• read Saturday mor^ning's evidence you w^ 1 fif d^'Sn'^""^" """^'^T- ^^ ^^^ ^'» classifications. ' ^ ^"' ""^ '^ "7 answer there were three wint?;?-A'7ou%*Su^fem;tvV^rr '""■^"'^T'' ^^ «'d'°»'y '^bour during last tive per day, foHabourer?^ * *'' winter from adollar toadollar and tw^e.Uy! men ove^clay exSvations 'whrw^la^lf.'^ gang Of men, a« they had to do'-lTe, t'm ^ r.uSrt;"^;^^^ Sly* ■f >;.j 164 111 u of the'm?n%^S7K"/^*'"n ''''*^'°'^''"' ^-^' '^^"^ *' *° oxoeptional man. I Bpeak dollars • ""^° "^^ «*"'"*' ^^ ' "^ ^''y *»'* another Ave Q. Were stone-cutters the same thloir ,, ./ot . Ah.^nf*K<»o»r„« fru SeStr/^ ^;'"^'' p''''^ ''^ contractors tf . . ..:;; work • f t"d*to' r'ouft^h: best in the city m my opinion, the most nltillod ones I could find. ,^1 "/ ordinary foremen, which a contractor would emplor what wiis thn market rate of wages ?-A From three dollars to throe dollarTSftJ'p^r day ' Loui?pa7d'woZbe';hrntL?;.:t?'"^"'^""'^^'^ '"* winter ?-i.Vhat'Mr. St. two d^oli?«^fi°^'prd"ar ''"'""'"''• '''^^^ '"™ ^"'^ "" ^ue.,y.fivef,a Q. And stone-masons ahoot the same ? — A Yes «K5«KZ**®''®^'*°ii®°' •'''''* of Rkilled laboui'ers Jutside of all these mechanics which were, under the cojatra'^., ;.t eighteen and a half cents per hour. What cS of labour does that schedule apie8ent?-A. It represented all the men who were handling the stone with cp.w-bars, and the derrick men If T ?«d fh?,'I*'f '^r''* ^ 't® ordinary market rate of wage's for these men?-.A. flvJ pe^diy. employed those men at one dollar twen^^ tV,n..n^'.J!'"l\r"''^ •'*' *''® *'*''■ '""^S®^ °^ carpenters ?.~A. No carpenter had work S skilled itt.^'"'"*"'"' '"*"'' '"^ ''"'' "^^'^ ^'^ exceptions, I^think all went in By Mr. Atwater : Q. What would be the ordinaiy rate paid them ?— A. One dollar fifty to one dollar seventy-five 1 am speaking from the experience of last winter and the rates men would be glad to get work for at that season of the year. The ame men a.^ probably working elsewhe^o at fifty per .ent more. ^ ® Q. What was the ordinary rate for single carters last winter ?-A. «2. Q. For double carters ?-A. «4 Remember when I am givinir you that fieure get teams 101 S3 to $3.50 per day which would not suit ns. We had to eet the Biggest and heaviest teams we could for that kind of w-rk, the roads were fo b^ and the hauling of stone was so heavy. ' °^' tevHKo tor ' '"'""* •" '■''"»«"" -'^ "^ ^°" '-^- ' wo.t4™; Q. He was the member for that constituency ?— A. Yes and he -a^ fhn man moSS" n?tK "''h,-*'^' T' '° ^'•'«'' *« ^^^« ^'^^^ bridge constructed to'AheaccT- modation of the public, and in my opinion, if there was any ^ess ' cost inVon nection with tho bridge, he would probably be held to blame tc cei r, ex ent X t' no?nn?v 5i,r'"tr^ ""' ^'"•''^^'' *" "^'^^ ^^""^^ explana^io' in ect^'n ;Uh It, not only before the com mission, r called, but before Purliau.on t. y. l>id you think it would be oroper for you to addroxs this diiAPflv f tho I ibour ould require • which you sate dire !tly , ho being 8o as the man rtlieaccom- 008 1 in con- 1 extent, for lection with ectly to the 1 feel now, tly, for one or ofiScer in 3, and think much natiH- complaint. 3 than yoa Louis's con on and I protested vebaKa^^rst if hecL-ftf'.^^^ ' •'"^ 'i' '^' Wellington Bridge, the wori wneini^Tne^'on ^f'hl '^'"« T^' 'Tl^*"' ^^^ ^""'^ nometimes see how aUhZgf ThTy Ife Zttv c o«e to""lh'" tK ^"r'^^"' ^^'^''^ ^«" ""*?-A- ^V^«". ^^Zi'!^''^^ r^^yrchttlenLrto wlT-^isSt. at Z i&G\iT/T::riXTdi T^^i::^ ^^•""^'^ '« ^*« -"*-»-^' ^^^ -rk Q. Who was the head foreman ?-A. A man r ,od Trudel. By Mr. Vanier: withTrS.''''''^'"''^'''^'*'"''"'"^^'^^''^'-^- »«'^«« working in conjunction paym^onJ^ilTSo^nTeZ^t'sttteVr; ^'^^ P^^''"?"^ ^^ ^^^ -«" «« to times of By Mr. j Mbald : the r^ie^of'thr'aenttmr f/tlie fl'r^r" 't'"""^ !? '"'"^Ill^ P'^>""«"^« ^"^^ ^^ -«« circumstances, that^Jwe . uch a rule for'tSr'^'^'TA ^. "''^ S'"'^' ""^" ^^« the first six weeks work fuilv oui of th!' ,„ It '^^^^O"; '•'at Y® '^®''« «""•« to get Q. Was your opinion confirmed by your experience ?-A. Yes it was Yes,^e^.;::^:e1i;ays'^n;iS''"^^ " '""''^^'^^ ^° '^^ employed ?-A. A. Y^'s.'^"'^ ^ '"''P'''' """ '^"'^ ''« '^^^'^'''Sf a'-^^nd the canal, looking for work ?_ 166 f Q. Perhaps those were the men some people talked of ah loRfAr. v * t i engaKed^?-A!" dt''' '" '^' P'"''""'" ^"" ^''"''^ '" '^' "^^'^^ "^ ^he men you tract ?_rE,a^c%*"^"^''* '*"*""' ^^^'^^ ''"'' "" '^" P'^^"'"* "'"^^^ ^t. Louis's con- was a^rU'ud'iborerr/oil""""' "'"«""«' '^^ ^''"^ ^^ -«'« ^-"g ?-A. Yes. he pe J; Z^ Xt yU''rre"'tr;,S'tt'aT ui'br/ a" Tfhi^n""""?^ •'r '' ">« savs^"" I C in IT' -f *^' 1*'^ of October, from Mr. Parent to you. in which he Q. Do you r«itr.i?mber the letter? January ^'*''*''^-~' '^''°^ '" « g«"«'-«l way. Look at the letter of the 10th of was ^-t^'^r ^,u;^rii:f:s;;^ ^^ «. h^dge. o. stand itTo7«?«,tn "°'^^'"«'r'^ Henderson's tender fortholuraber? Did you under- aVe^frtuS/.^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -ci hJ refuted in th? te^Sjrr rDetedly" " ' ''"'" '"" "" ''' '"™'"^ «" ^'^^ P''-« «'-" % Jlfr. Douglas: enf ?^A^V°" ™?"" V^a^'t applied to the temporary works as well as the oerman was Verv miioh •.noraa^^.l w*.ujjc. was very much increased. Therefore his contract By Mr. Archibald : By Mr. Do lias; ; .^' ^''^ q«ant>tit-J arc made out for the permanent work? A v«.o »^-j ♦», • vitation for tenders calls for permanent and t^Trnpora'^ '"''^^-^' ^^'' »"^ ^^« '°- 167 ?— A. I know ne, throughout ig around, but works ettn be )afer8 hanging concerned, by you improper nen, because 1 the city after the men you t. Louis's con- ? — A. Yes, be )n8 a8 to the in a letter on hom the con- appioved of , in which he unee, copy of Htone, timber cture of the ot the letter jnderson was bridge?— A. V there was the lOth of he bridge, or d you under- bo required prices given the perman- .8 not known his contract . No, there 8. he construe- and the in- conti By Mr. Archibald : Q. r 8«o that the letter of tho 24th of Octobor, 1892. referrinir to that nf \fr Parent to you. uses the following expression : "Such 'stone timber^an 1 lumber a^ may bo required for the construction of the substructure of the oronZ.I Lve Wellington bridge, across the Lachino canal." That let er is in ..oD^n.l 1 I' E/a^tly!"'""' '""'""• ''"' ^'^ ''"^'^ Hhould CO v:":[l The' wor,^t ""nor?- Q. Were you present when Mr. Parent gave evidence on that ooint?— A I wn. i;ri''r.h?:r:i,:;::;nbr;:;,t'^ ^' '■°™~' "^'"°™' f-"« -""'^^' Q. As a matter of f^aot, how was tho timber ordered from Honderson ?_A U ZlllZ'l'^ '"■'"'''*"^ '^ ""''''' '' '^« "^'"^ ^'-' «"• through mysdJaTd^M^. By Mr. Vanier : P» ^; foi-'^oth bridges ?-A. Yes, because in tho letter read hero this morninirfrom By Mr. Atwater : By Mr. Archibald : on flid'e^o" BTo'the-lTr C"" '"'"' ""^ '''''''''''^ ^'"^ ^"^^'^ '"^'^^^ -^''^ Trun^" hl^Wllrif"/^" supply for the extension work in connection wilh tho Cxrand Trunk bridge If 1 remember rightly, the old protection crib on the Grand Trunk llA^.r.T'x''}'' *"'^«° t7"- '^''«'« were little extensions to be mZ on each Z.J .1 ' /''® '^'■"'J"^' ''"' l^ii^TW, whon changes were made, the old cribwo k was taken down, and new cribworic built, large! than the old ?-A I snoke ,o Drboth"h.H' ""^' M'"i''"r ^"^ '''', contract,1.nd it was only 7a r he-sLu'^d sup° ply both bridges. M.. Henderson spoke to me and I toM him to <'o to Mr Pa rent o^rrw'i^^tTo^nl'uriX"".'/'™^^' ""' "' l''^ ^'■- ^^''"'' th^t HenSefson B o £ ers were to go on supplying all necessary timber. Q. Did you over order from Mr. Henderson, or any other merchant one article lik?-Y'Ne4t^""''""°'''''''"^'-^'''^ '''' ^'-"P'^""" oftha't ;""£ Q. What instructions did you give to the culler, with regard to the precautions L fi^"fl'";i''''!r'"^ '•V tJ'nber?_A. I ordered 'him to be ve.y care il that all u thTc^rtei-^'SotTat'hi w ^'?^''' ^•»«"?'«'>« ""^ q"«'ity. the^same as indicated i know tTat Mr Ku^^^^^^ Tv"" "T"'"^ 't, and be careful about the dimensions. k'r.ts':;.dt«d?o"Ltrprac'ed"""' "^^ ^'™*'"" "'^'^•^ ^^«« ^^j-^^*^ ^y ^^^ a boo^k ?^'l^ V """J*'' J'^^i"^ t«ke a memorandum of the different measurements in a book ?— A. Yes, I ordered him to keep irack- of evervthing work of aronor'",iIlfhl''Tir'°" '1 "^" '"question tho correctness of the worj£ ot any of your timber c\illers in that matter?— A. No, 1 do not remember me tha^Tn^dll'hT^* 'VT- "T^'*^"' 7^«" ^'- Henderson came to mo and dd me that Trudel had been to his place, and asked for a certain lot of timber of snecial dimensions for the Grand Trunk work. I asked him if he Jad everTone'so befo e and he said, yes, he had received orders from Trudel before that for Sber and I think from somebody else— Joe St. T;nnia I th.nHf „„= t a-./ ,-1 .'„"'""? ^ li±;^T'''V^r '*• --Pt to inform him tharhe was^nev^ to leS"aaf timber under such orders, a. ; I wont immediately to where McGinley was wor^kinj and remonstrated with him pretty severely for allowing such a th'njto be dS 168 1: \' U i i 111 -A \,7^'°'«y «»'*^ '^^ '"«i kept track of the things delivered to Trudel directly ? been 80 strict *' *°^ '''*'"' '" ^'^^ ™'^*'«'*' ^"^ ^^a* I ^""Id have timb?;?^r Twar'' ^''''"^ '''''° '^' '"""'■' ^"' measuring and receiving the Q. Were you satisfied with the way they did it?— A I was Thora ,«oTr i,„ % Mr. Douglas : A. Yt,^he"sJoul J. ™"° '"" ''^ ^'' 'y'' ''^''^'' ^ ''''^ ^«« *^«'^« by twelve or not ? Q. Could McGinley ?_A. I know he could. I saw him do it. % Mr. Atwater: the ,?^grs "iz^sist "^x^^a^r L3S1 asv': "'"""^ Bif Mr. Archibald : Q. Any competont limber ouirer could tell at a Klancof— A Decidadl,- .0 pS d?w" T:oMl'r^:i£'? '' «;!«"'■ ■'° '-". re tool boxes ?, and undei" ) was !i tool an as^sistant lyiny around )oxe8, and if t ho got and )ok after the foremen, too, . A quantity to have pre- m was done, uch. ronv watch- li you when e. it mtiat v&a driving )i-. I pulled Wini*m^.t^ r -^^fi'*^ ^'^'^ ''\f' ^^^'^ ^^'" ««™« ^'™«- I «««^ a t«am passing along William street, with five pieces of round timber, which I recognized as havinJ been used m some of our temporary works. I recognized it from the fact that llw pieces of plank, ^vhat we call "cleats," spiked on to the end^ I came aroJnd bv felW^"*ri^"^f',f'* Mr Scanlan^was with me, who had workeion the Wellington bridge. 1 allowed the teamster to go on to the corner of McCord street h?m roto.'8;trrf s\"elr" '"^^^' ''"' '«''°'«^ ''^ -^'^ the ho^ t^f^ltrd By Mr. Douglas: HendtsonTroir^' timber?- A. It was new timber that had been supplied by By Mr. Archibald: hflfin^;,^ttH^"**^®*'°'^*'"^®'*.'''''o'°^y°" have a personal knowledge of having been removed since your suspension ?-A. I have heard a great deal about timbef afKv '? *''*^- ^ t^K^^Sr; T«>'i"gton .treet bridge^until about three wlks ^^tl^y. ^TTu .When 1 left there, on ih^ 13th of May, the park was coT pletely covered with timber, out to Wellin-..,,, street, on the other skle of WelS- ton bridge, almost blocking the road. As 1 Mated, when I passed there three wcelfs afteiwards, I thought an earthquake or a cyclone had taken place. Mr. Atwater.— The timber had disappeared. Q. Was it large timber?— A. Yes. By Mr. Archibald : A. I^aUo^red^?o;all\Tar*'''"""''''^'""'^^ P"^ ''"*" '"^^ cribwork ?_ q. You do not know that the timber was taken away, but you only know that ian JuEHhe Zi'^nfP''"*'!.-''- ""''' '"'^ ^ S^^'' ^^^'^ ^^'^^ ""'* M.( Lnderson K««n ?„b r^** Of a good many parties who can testify to the timber huvintf away from S." *'" '""■' '^"''' ^^ ^''" "'^ '"""''"''^ ^1"""''^^ ^^ timbe. lakef By Mr. Atwater : O Wh1?H •^^'■^'''^ ''*l"^ '~A- C'^'-'^i^ly. «tuff that can be uaed in canal works. Q. What did yon do about that particular load ?-A. 1 did not do anything. y. You did not inform the department ?--A No whethc.^So.S,?oif *^K^' mon?_A. No, Scanlan spoke to them. Cannot say rememli,, now ""**" '^'" P^'mis^ion from somebody or not. Do not By Mr. Archibald : if ^?'J!^'^^ ^-'."{^"f ,''«'""'°'»>' o^'er, was it timber practically of the same value aa t i ihath /h"'^ been u«ed?-A. Decidedly. The timber that was left ovcx was i Tt had nevi. hP " """f V^^ temporary work, and would be just as valuable as hlnlif? • !"""^'*-. ^.t^f^arket value, was not diminished, in my opinion because it was just as good timber to build cribwork ns if new. "P'nion, By Mr. Emard : Q. You could not sell it . the same price ?-A. No. but that is not the question for it woTn^M '''""'"' """^ market value ?-A. No, but it is equally valuable loi the work or the government. ^ By Mr. Archibald: «K„*^" ^PI'l,'OHing, fot^examplo, that Mr. Henderson himself received an order for that particular cla«8 of timber, wpuld it be an objection that it had been used before? J ! " .1 t 172 Si!??^* not have delivered that timber ? Would it not be satisfactory to fill the order ?-A It would be satisfactory to fill the order, but Mr. Henderson would iet l^TV^sTiere;'" '^ '""' ''' ''■ '' -««^- -«»> va.u:^^ tbrgtefn! By Mr. Atwater : Weli?ng£7br?dgTtt ^SldtoiryThaT" "^^ ^"^'^^^^ ^'^"'^ '^^''^^^^^^ ^ ^^« n,«n?;J*'''"'^^*l""'^^^^*°?'*y^'^ *° ^^y- *« y^*^"^ examination in chief that five men were employed, under the system adopted, whore three would have done T-I! I wls^' t?hlr Vh^? t'^""'''' 5 u T'^ youi- statement ?-A. Did I not explain that ? nnTlh^ h«H « * ^''^^ ^^\^ ''^f°'"« °" *^** P°^"t. (Witness objected to answer thai point) °PP"'''""'*y «^ «««'"g *»>« explanation ^e had previously given on could^ha^^Jon^T" *'',"*-'' K-^u*' '^r" ^^ ''^«" ^ contractor on this work, you fnr« wW WK ^^ '^'''u^ '^'''''•' "^"^ ^^'^^ «" ^^« Wellington bridge and superstiuc- ture wi h three men, where as a matter of fact five were employed ?-AThatTs practically the very same question over again 'Fi»yea r a. inat is wanf^tn^rj^K "^^"''."^ *?• »»»^e'-iba<' lentil you hear your explanation road ?-A I hiTt to mak. it'n^P T'' -u ^ !f.'^V^ *-^" ^"'«*'"" "^^ *« ™«. ^"'J '^' the.-e is nothing in it to make it plain, I will add what is required. ^ d«r.l!?;Ar'''^ ^''" r'i''^ ^"^^.'^ "^"^ ^-^- You have put me on record that I have m« h«fl f "''^^'' ^^-^^ ^r'*'^"' ''*°'* "°^ I ^«"t t« lie«r what I have said read lo me, before I answer it. That is only just to myself. 5y Jfr. ilrcAtJaW; Q. Because there is a difference of opinion as to what you have said ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Atwater : <.f»f % ^°"o ®^P'^"at'o° could not have been entirely clear, and you mav as well SnH ^^"T',*^®' I have not been prompted in my answers by Mr Archibald or KnytuSion """"" ''''" ^''"'^''"^ ^^ '"^^'^^ '" '"^'^^ a statement in lep?; Q. I would not suggest that Mr. Archibald prompted you to say anythintr Unw TmYmlT^^^ ''''■' ""'''"^"^ "" '^' Welfingto'n st'Lt brid Jo "Ia. f do nTt Q. About how many men ?— A. I could not tell you. ^. You have stated already that three hundred more men were eraploved thera than you considered necessary for the work to be done ?-A Ye8 ^™P'''y^'' ^*'®'* Tvn^brlLi7^x^r^T^''^T.\'' ^^^ '^'"■'^ '"* '^ ^«« being done on the Grand Wenington^brlilit- P'" "''^ ''"'' ""'"'^"" '"^ '*' ^ ^'^^ «« ^"^^'^ ^'"P'^y^d on the 2ssiry. ^ '^" "^"^ ™'"'® '"^" employed than was really brid^' ?^T y.T T""^ ""? «'?P'<^y"'^ ^»^«''« i° Proportion than on the Wellington runnlLof^L r; . ^«"'«'"f«'- ^ ^ answering those questions from the general on th« VlnS work and not from figures. I cannot tell if there wore one thousa,.* on the Grand Trunk bridge and nine hundred on the Wellington bridire at anv time I am speaking of the general run of the work "'e'""g"'" ''"dge at any the c?nal anriuhL'"^'' "*' *^"ybody else on the work. You are superintendent of G,!!' mi!!?A..^'ii^"Sh you may not have assumed the overseeing entirely of the "!., -.^.tM:a i;i:tigu, sun 1 asKod jou liH to what you know of the work done thflr« You M- )ed the pay sheets of (he Grand Trunk bridge ?-A I did H. At what ponods were they brought to you ?-A. At different periods. 173 Bssary on the ™i,.^;k^''^ ^''I "?**'^® ** u" ^V^ "^''y "^° ^®" •'«'°g employed on the bridge when the pay sheets were brought to you ?— A. I did not ^ fio-.«S;,«^l^ Th i"'* '"^''''^^ ^''^°' ^'^^V^^ corrections ?-A. There have been correc- tions made, 1 believe seveial times. I certified those accounts solely on the report ofour time-keepers, Cough lin and Glenny. ^ u iu« repoii Q. Of your own time-keepers or the time-keepers on the Grand Trunk bridge? -A Our own. They did not take the men's time^ but only counted them ^ a^n..?' T^A "^^'l ^ook an account of the number of men who were put on* the pay A w'n T '' '*f '•'^ ^u "A**''* **'*' ""'"''^'^ °^"«° o" the pay sheets was excessive ?I A. Well I cannotsay that I everwent into the details of the time list. I left that to iVv^hinTlfJ ^^''^^/••-^t^^ter wants to try and havemecontradictevidence L^f!!*! .*• « i I contradict evidence given before, I will not be responsible. I am perfectly satisfied to answer any question put to me directly in connection with the WO* K. .K r"^'"" Pm"*'^t^-~^^ Kennedy made the assertion that he had nothing to do with the Grand Trunk pay-hsis, and signed them on the strength of Coughlin's check Mr. Atwateb.— Kennedy states there were too many men on the Grand Trunk bridge. I want t^ know if it ever struck him, when certifying to the pay sheets that the number was disproportionate to the work ? ^^ "aeets, Mr Dou3LA8.~He said in his main examination that he never pail anv atten- tion to the number. '^ •' Mr. KENNEDr.— Mr. Atwater wants to know why it was, when I thought there were too many men on the Grand Trunk, I certified to the accounts which showed too many men. onuwou ^' ?°:..^j*'" ^^'"'"^ y°" ^h®" these pay sheets of the Grand Trunk bridge were submitted to you to be certified, whether it struck you that the number of mfn toTlafe ^^^ large ?-A. I have said twice before that I thought the number Q. Did it strike you when the pav-lists were brought you to be signed?— A Nothing m/,re than the pay-lists, for tlie glance I gave over them, correspondfd with the numbor on the work. ^ Q. Did you make any statement to the department, or office in Montreal about the number employed on the Grand T.unk ?-A. I never made a written statement Q Did you make any verbal statement ?-A. Often to Mr. Parent, and very otten (^ some of Mr. St. Louis 8 men, because contractors came on the work and diflferent people passing by, who would look at the Grand Trunk work, and tell' me there were more men there than were really necessary. Now, Mr. Atwater. your own ju/lgm«r,t will tell you that Mr. St. Louis had the full supplying of men and a so control of the running of the work on the Grand Trunk bridge, mid it was not at all to be surprised at-if I were in his place I would do the very same Thfng- that he would put on as many men as he could. * Q. In what shape did you put your complaint to Mr. Parent about the number of m«M employed on the Grand Trunk bridge ?-A. In a verbal way, from what I had sefeH occasionally, having occasion to pass there, or from what T had been told Q, When was it you spoke to Mr. Parent first ?-A. 1 could not tell exactly Q. Was it early in the work t~A Yes. ' Q. During the first part of Marvh <'■- A, It must have been. Q When was it you Wf^nt to the Gr?.n i Trunk work yourself ?— A. In the last days or Aj^l, « inou Q. AiMll how many men did yoi find employed there then ?— A. I could not tell Q. Did you find too many when you went on it yourself ?— A. I want to finish answering the other quo.stion. The first time I wflnt on the Grand Trunk bridge wufi_when Mr. Douglas was there h-mseif. The exact date I do not remember, ibej ^auu'ouoiu with iheir caisson, ooukt uufc get the pump and boiler to work and said that we sent them one which was no good purposely. Trudel was in charge of the work umi gave il up. Mr. Douglas authorized me to take charge of it and |o oil with It. When I went on it caused a little friction between Trudel and myself 174 ']i Mr. Douglas. Q. I requested you. I did not authorize you.-A. Mr. Douglas authorized me. I am not looking for work by request, not work of that kind. By Mr. Atwater : f Kaf ?;."^ V*^rl'!? l^'^l-^- ^f """^^''^^ ™« to go «nd take charge of the work.and that created a little friction, as Mr. Douglas will remember, between Trudcl and myself that night I took over two or three men with me and we got the pump right to work, and had the caisson ready the following night. Then I met Trude^ and explained the thing, and I told Mr. Douglas I thought it better to put it in the way of directing the men than to be taking charge of the work. Trudel went back to his work again, &u(\ went on with it. Mr. Archibald.— Trudel was angry that you interfered with his job ? By Mr. Atwater : Q. Were there too many men then in proportion to the work ?— A At that time, I do not remember whether it was before or aftrt- Mr Schreiber was down because T know Schreiber told me there were too many men and too many carts at the Grand Trunk bridge and insisted that I should go there occasion- ally, and when I would find too many men I was to put them oi. I said vou or some other men might conie here to the Wellington bridge and say the same^ thing about the number there. No. he said, I find the men employed here are not oo many. This was his own remark. Q. But he said there were too many on the Grand Trunk bridee ?— A Yes- and he ordered me to go there several times, and when I would find a number of men not working I was to discharge them. "umoer oi Q. Wd you do that ?— A. I wont several times. I never discharged any direct- ly myself, but drew the foreman's attention to the way the men wore working I remember on one occasion, seven men wore using crowbars on the bottom of the canal, trying to tear out a piece of old cribwork timber which was bolted together I drew Mr. Douglas's attention to it, and said Mr. Schreiber's instructions lore if but could bo set to work m such a way as to do it better. I told Trade to order two 01 them to get picks apiece. Q. Did he do that ?--A. Yes. Q. Their labour was being misdirected ?■— A. Yes the men^5^r"l did"" ^^'^ ^''"''®'' ""' ""^ °^ *^^ other" foremen to discharge any of Q. On how many occasions ?— A. Not very many occasions. Q. Were your orders carried out ?_A. Sometimes they were, but not always. ^..fi- ^^ was responsible ?-A. 1 think Trudel wa.. I do not know if he was working under other instructions. someUmys^ '* ^""'^"^ *''^"^'' ^''" to'd?-A. No; I told ViUeneuve, the timekeeper, Q. Were they discharged when you told ViUeneuve?— A. They were not dis- charged, but were turned around to other work. The commission adjourned. ^i £. J. DuGQAN, Stenographer. 175 horized me. B. Kennedy, recalled, and deposed an follows : — By Mr. Douglas : A.«„?H J'^'^'i^o*' ®''^/^'' 9 ^?^ ^?^ ?****' 'f y«" «««■«« with tbose prices of Mr. St. Amand for «8 a yard ?-A. I notice here one item of 60 cubic yards of stone in the }h^!ZPTv, ?T?^H^ ^r^u^'- ^'""''iy' *2-»0 Pe'- cubic yard, fnever agreed to any! thing of that kind. There is a witness named Quinlan who went out there and knowH about the details in that contract. ' Q. Did you make the agreement in price, or was there any agreement made ?— A. No agreoment was made at the time, I went there to get stone in a hurry, and ^^^'^f^i^-^Opermhic yard for stone on the ground,^ and then extra charges added to that, and having to work on Sunday. ^narges Q. These extras would probably bring it up to «8 a yard. That is $150 for stone not removed, as he states ?-A. This is all the stone we .-eceived. He swore the other day that the greatest part of this stone had been sold to others y. The only objection to the account is that 8150 ?— \ Yes thAt K^?!^ yo" «f.e« to pay these men and horses ?-A.. Those "are men and horses that he employed himself to strip the stone which we needed and ran over his quarry By Mr. McLeod : fhftt ?; hit ^if " ^*? lu® r**"""* was correct ?-A. No ; there is one item, 60 yards that he has charged, that was not delivered. ^ Q. It is correct except that?— A. Yes. By Mr. Douglas: Q. The bargain was $2.50 a yard, except those large stone ?— A. There was no tSmr.tT 'r\'T- ^' ^"^ '^' understanding tLt the price should be some- lM5^ Vi J' • ^^^''^ rT""^ ®'''? ^^^'S^'"' °w'"g to the haste and the time at which It was being done. They worked on Good Friday and Saturday snd Easter By Mr. Archihald : .f ..,„.?•'. ^^^*T®'w*'?r^'^ yesterday to produce certain statements relating to the con- struction of the Wellington street bri(fge. Have you them with you ?_A. Yes. I produce ,.sC 79 an exhibit describing the ice excavation, the clay excavation for the abutments and for the centre pier of the Wellington bridge, the masonry for the centre pieis the north and south abutments, ballast walls and parapet wall Then n«M "h'" a description o the timber for the tempoi-ary bridge and all the timbers con he Llr n !h' K ^T'-'^fT «^ the timbei^ for the^unw^from the north side Jf wav in th« honnm STk '^ "'^ 1""*.' ' " P^''^^^^ ^^"^ ^^^ '*«"'«'^ ' P'^tform and road- ^^Ll^ bottom of the canal and across to the south side at the west end of the r,™, "?' ^«""^^^'«" P'*tfo>-m for derricks on the bottom of the canal; temporary run vay from the canal bank to the ice surface at Wellington bridge and to the Wellington basis from Jacques's shed ; cofferdam or caisson for centre pie? excavation oak sheeting aiound the caisson; tongued and grooved sheeting around the caisson ' extension to caisson and upper slope dam across the canal, and^all lumber and tim- no^h JhJ^^k ^"''^^'Pg^ ••" connection with the work; temporary roiulwavs on the noKhsideof the canal in front of ihe Ogdensburg Coal knd Towing Co.'s yard. Then there is the cribwork for the Wellington street bridge, the timber and lumber used in the foo ing for the centre pier, aud the cribwSrk for the Grand Trunk r''>^-.. ^ow..a'^ the timber specified in this foregoing statement does not inchiHfl rlL.-^" .™°?,''"T^'i''^"-';r"""y°f'^hebuiiaing8~or false works used on the G.-and Trunk .ailway bridge. Neither does it include the lumber and timber used as stringers under the floors posts, lintels, cross ties and rafters in the building used in connection with Wellington street bridge works; neither does it include anf I- ill I I ff ' ii^ 'J. ! -f i ' 176 of the oak used in the flumping boxes, stone boats and foundation limbers under the hoisting engines ; nor the inch boarding used in the temporary fence, and for the side panels used at Jacques's flour sheds to protect the stoneouttere and workmen from the weather ; nor does it include any of the three-inch plank used when the weather moderated and softened, for St. Patrick's parks, so that we had to make iomporary roadways to get our stone up near ; nor the three-inch plank used for scaffblding around the centre pier and abutments ; nor the three-inch planking or timbers used to make runways or slips and excavation for the cribwork above the centre pier; nor the three and one inch stuff used in mortar boxes, cement and sand chutes' carpenter's trestles, tool boxes, &c. Then there is new unused timber remaining on the works, such as braces for poles, oak piles, pine piles, oak plank, three-inch plank, one-inch boards, also the round and flatted timbers. Q. There is astatementof the quantity on hand?— A. There was a statement made up in the latter part of April. That enumerates the quantities. We have made it to the best of our ability. Q. Why did you not include the various amounts of timber used in the matters mentioned on page 14, which you have just recapitulated V— A. Because we did not have time. Q. Would yoi be in a position, with time, to make a reasonable estimate or ap- proximate estima..e of the timbers used in those various works ? A. Yes. Q. Now, I want to call your attention to the estimate of the amount of masonry as .shown on 2nd page—masonry in the abutments of the Wellington bridge as shown on 2nd page of the exhibit you have just produced, 79, namely 1,890 yards. It is stated here that the abutments did not diverge from the bottom. Mr. Douglas.— Mr. Papineau states that the batters started from the bottom of the old wall. Mr. Kennedy.— The stone battered from the top of the old wall to the bottom of the old wall and then ran out on a batter, top to bottom, two inches to the foot. The stone ran outside the old wall. That is the face batter. By Mr. McLeod : Q. We are not talking of the face batter but of the stepping up of the stone. Do you mean to say it did not run out longer than the old wall ? A. Mr. Papineau is right. The masonry abutment was perpendicular to the bottom of the old wali and then was stepped off on each side. The masonry of the new abutments was perpendicular at both ends from the bottom of the new abutments to the bottom of the old wall, and then stepped in to the old wall to the top. By Mr. Archibald : Q. Did it step in on a regular incline ?— A. No, an irregular incline. Some- times you would have to take out a stone three feet long, probably on one side and it may be four feet six inches long on the other, By Mr. McLeod : Q. Mr. Papineau would be the best judge of that ?— A. No, I think I am the best judge, because I stood on the ground all the time and would take out the stone where necessary. Q. Have you got a sketch of it ?— A. No, I depend on ray memory. Q. Mr. Papineau would have the measurements, would he not ? — A, He ought to have. Q. If Mr. Papineau has the measurements his information would be the moxt correct ?— A. There was work done in the checking of that aUme in the abutment* that I do not think Mr. Papineau took measurements of. H- - — V s "'" • •— •••'"•-'^t iiiai vTijcii \Tc j^ui wicnin roar or five feet of the north abutment on the east, end, the stone was so small and so light a bed, and the backing was small and crumbled so much, that we had to take out those stones and take proper stones to replace them eight or ten feet. 177 e bottom of o T f J* D .'"'''® ^" *^® ^'*''° ^^'"0" ^he water was let in ?-A. All feasible Q. AndMr Pamneau could show that at y time ?_A. At any t mt yes Q. He could take notes of it in making r , neasurements ?-A Yes By Mr. Archibald ; , these^abSn'J^-ifir^'n"". P*ftK^*u' ^""^'^'^ ^ ^^' y«" »»«^« estimated the size of tnese abutments— dimension of the abutments, 68 feet at bottom, by 100 feet at the lit T.T^'^'f "^''"' ^* ^'f r ""^ '«"g^*'- ^'^^ y«" take into account the fact that -A Yes rose perpendicularly for a certain distance in making that average ? By Mr. McLeod : wide?at^^he"ase " "^^'^ """'^ '"'■^'' ^°^" ^*'"^ ^"^^ ^««' ««''*'*>'''y' ^^^^^^^^ '^ i' Q. So that the mean of the top and bottom would not be anythinc at all like a 5!/ Jfr. Archibald : abutment7i^77''^^^li^iT^^^^''''^^^''^^ ''^^ ^'*" <*^ ^'''^ canal that this aoutment went I — A. I think it was nine feet. By Mr. McLeod : K„*+ ^" S'' ^"" J^°"''^ ^® P''^'" ""^ ^"''^ «"«* ^or nine feet?— A. Yes, runnine with a batter of two inches to the foot on the face of the canal. ^ 5y ilfr. Archibald : r«»r?;i''.-"* ^''^i"'^ °"* whether you still think that this measurement is a represenationofthe amount ofmasonry done in those abutments. Would Sde rifoT he%iar^^"H'f.° by calculating the portion that was below the "old wJn Ku K ?fu' """^ *^^" "^^'"g **^® P<>'*t'o" that was above ?-A. Mr. Dohenv Thl ''•'^v ''fi'-g® «f t»>« «]»"« work, assisted us, and the way we calculated that wS this : ^ye first averaged, to the best of our knowledge, the quantity of stone as to cu? ?o7Ihf i'r"'^'' ?"i**^"" ''i!^^'^^*^ '^'''' *^y the amount of^stone that wis cut for the abutments, which was about the best wav we could calculate by haviue widfh^'nf .."T""^^™'"*" e**^" ^^'' ^'''"^ that was u-sed, and then we averlged hf width of the backing in the masonry. We did a lot of figuring. " intoLworkttfc^d^;'^''"^"'"'*'''^^^^^ ^^'^^ »^«^ g-« been^U8ed°?iA^fe8,'irdir'^"°"'''^*'"^ "''^ *^' '*°"' *^^* ^^"^ ^'""'^ ^'^ ^«^« -A ^i" R^n^'l'^i^f'^^iu®'*'!"^*'"^ *^^ ^''^"''^ *"°»°t of the face stone that was used ? bidiiigsW *'"'''^° '^'''*^""' P^opo'-tio" of this stone and By Mr. McLeod ; i« t/.^^Jql-'" *^^ ^**' quantity ?-A. The total quantity in both abutments, that IS to say, Ho yards in each abutment. ^ j «, "«»« By Mr. Archibald: Q. That conespjnded with your measurement estimate? -A. Yes, true you 4 It; t 1 y ■'! f ji 1' f 1 .:!•'■ i'l ! 1 > 'HI '"I t f ii 1 178 By Mr. McLtod : Q, It could not possibly be moro than the actual measurement of the contents. Mr. Ahchibali). — No, but the fact is that this raking was not at all regular and the only question is how great the irregularity win, whether it was sufficient to make it as if it had gone up from the bottom, Mr. McLeod. — The effect of narrowing the wall would bo very much lew* as the wall came up, and the irregularity would be of loss otl'ect as you got towards the Hurfuce. Mr. Kennedy.— There was more stono taken out coming up near *he top than there was at the bottom, bocauso at the bottom the old wall was of a heavier stone, and as we came to the top, they were lighter stone with a very narrow bed, and were backed up with very light stone which had to bo taken out. In fact when the backing was touched at all it would be cleared out, and stepped off somotimos to a length of eight or ton feet at one ond, that is, to within six feet ot top where the wall was very thin so that what wo would gain by having a straight wall to nine feotat bottom, we came near losing it at the top. ^. What was the extreme length of the top of the wall v lorc you bonded with the old wall? — A. I do not think any plan can be produced that would give a cor- rect estimate. It would have to bo approximate, and a calculation from memory, the way those abutments were built. Mr, Douglas. — The first nine feet would not be approximate, but afterwards it would. By Mr. Archibald : Q. Will you please state how this exhiHi* has been prepared, who assisted you in its preparation, and from what data wai, k prepared? — A. Mr. Doheny and Mr. Scanlan. Q. How did you proceed in its preyi*';;i*ii:n — A. Mr. Doheny was interested in the masonry, that was part of hischan;i, Q. Did you all calculate and estimato, -# ^#^^" > y 1.0 I.I us. Ill u ■ 25 1.25 iu ■ 2^ |2-2 1.6 150mm >4PPLIED^' IIV14GE . Inc ■jra 1653 East Main Street ^S'l Rochester, NY 14609 USA ^^^1= Phone: 716/482-0300 .2=-.^= Fax: 716/288-5989 O 1993. Applied Image, Inc . All Rights Reserved l\ 4 '^ ^ p^^' , Q. Your main estimate was certainly as small as the reality ?— A. Yes; that is my orinion. "^ ' Q. Did you compare an estimate of the different quantities with the abstract of Mr. Henderson's account ?--A. Yes; we did. »»uoi,™ti,oi Q. And with what result?— A. The result was that it was pretty close. «.of3 IK*! *'»«'•« an 'n^entory prepared under your direction of the plant and rT« w r r*""!! -^^ fif- 1 andiath of May, remaining over from the constVuction of the Wellington bridge ?— A. There was, about the first of May K„ «?• A ^*'" P.^o^luce that inventory ?-A. I produce as C 80 an inventory taken by me and my assistants, as directed By Mr. Parent, of all the plant and ranterml remaining over from the construction of the bridges across the canal, about the tii-st of May last, together with a valuation of each article or class of articles Ki™ ?„H rf *^«V"''®'''^7 prepared ?-A. Mr. Scanlan took different men with him and went from place to place, and made a correct estimate of the quantities and iTS* enclr^ '** ' '^*^ ^^'"*'' *' *' ***''' P'"*""' '^'''"^ ^^ ^'^ «>^®^ i«. Q-H»y«yi:"yo«welf verified the correctness of their work?— A. Not in the total but at difterent places where I made an estimate for myself in order to make a newlVTonecr '*® ^ ^^ ''^'■* ^"^''^ "^"'^ ''''"'**'*= ^ ^'^""^ ^^*«° P'*"^ f^A^*"*' "®" went with Mr. Scanlan ?-A. Mr. Dohony and Mr. Robertson one of the foremen masons, measured all the stone. ' Q. Is that the Doheny that was examined here?— A. Yes; he has irone awav Jif ault Ste. Mar e. and I t^ink he will be back here probably to.mo\row R^oberS first name isWilham. He was employed as builder and foreman stone mason. y. Did these men have a capacity to measure lumber?— A. No; they had nothing whatever to do with the lumber. ' ^ manlme%™Ter'^ '*'" ''"°^'' ""'^ '^' timber ?-A. Scanlan and another young „f ^'J!^"" P'^^** 1*''® ^x^V®* opposite each item ?-A. That was done after conver- sation between Scanlan, Doheny, RobertBon and myself Roofe^riruV' tf 9nn **w' ^°! «^''™P'«' ^o•^<;•ng engine of 20 horse power, Ingorsoll SSSnl-ii;'' •^^- Was t''««««tP'-'ce that sum ?-A. That was the cost price. They did not decrease any in value, ^hey are equally as good to^lay. if they had taken any care of them and did not allow them to rust the ifst two or^h.ee months y. You say some percentages were reduced on some items. Would you look over and see on what items there have been reductions ?_A. I think thJre were some reductions on all derricks. Of coarse I am only speaking from memory I am pofitfveTthlt *'"** ^^^^ ^"* '" "^""^ '''''* P"*'®' "^^^ ^^^y ^-^- ^<'°« ! w« Q-J.s'JPPo^® the lumber and timber remaining was put in at cost price ?— A. No ; I think there was a reduction made in that. ° *^ *" "'" ' ^' t9n ^' lu^f 'T?®'" ^*"^' ^^'f^o *"^ ^^"*'«' ^^^'0*^0 feet, board measurement at 120 ; 18 that what you paid for it ?-A. fhat is the original price ' Q. Rough planks, «10?_A. The contract price for them was $12. y. ^oai-ds, «7 ?— A The contract price for them, I think, was « 10 or 411 Q. Oak, square timber and plank, $37 ?-A. That was the original price.* Q. I see the face stone, 510 cubic yards, $8. Is that the price ?— A 1 think that is all the tace stone that was taken out of the four rest piersfand is ^uaUy rKood ^fiut'^^ "f"i ^^'^* "^^ *]^^ total valuatipn of the timber remaining on iiand the Ist of May, planks, stone and everything else ?— A. The total was |78;i82.42 181 and the Ist a wm't"" r™ ""'■ ■""«'" "»° '-A- No, they wer» not I .,.o„ Of.™ .Ho^n-^-af/rc fji-ss areM^^oe,r7.^„.^rffi'»i 5y Mr. McLeod: piv„?pjtfrr,SirA!?dVtrs'Ji':ro^.^rri»K^^^^ days of April ^ ^ ^®' ^'""'* ^^ ''^'^ *»fe«'» down in the last few make it appear now. and out to S To Huit'" ^"** '' ^"''' hammered to Q. You used as much of that atone as vou oonlH? a v«<. „*•♦ .ini„g over ?_A. % Jfr. McLeod: Q. That is for waste and deterioration of plant?— A. Yes. By Mr. Archibald: O" ThJf wn^K ™*'^« »1''.619.11 to be deducted from the others ?-A Ye. log o^n hit aTdt &tt:sr;^^-Sf J.^^ amount of plant that was in stock at the tfme on the works ThaT 25 i' ^"^'f deducted it from evei-vthine I am ,Tn\ni/iVJ\^r, "™oer t—^. Yes, I have doubt. «'7ining. 1 am giving the government the advantage of the Mr. DouoLAs.-inoluding outstanding accounts. i '•• I 182 and material remaining on hand! or 152 wjr deteriat.on upon the plant have^L^""""'^'-"^' ^"^ °"' '^'°'' *'^°«* ^«""« W« ^*" 'ook into them as we By Mr. Archibald: Q. How much does it make ?— A. 8341 908 72 to A^^riioZi"'"'' *"' *"'"' P**^-''^^- ^^ ^*>«' ^""^ Trunk bridge amounted till 2%Sk ***'^ examination of the witness adjourned. The commission adjourned S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. IP t H Montreal, 8th August, 1893. Afternoon Sitting. E. Kennedy's examination continued : By Mr. Archibald : z^ntrri?/^^^^^^ iThViLtthrw-rsi --'^ -' tt srd^ra thin^' ^'" '''" ^"^ '^** '° '^' '^^^^^' « ^8-A- I -"ake it $10.8n the whole Mr. I)ouQLA8.-There is the hire ot plant and the sand and cement to lin Mr. ARCHiBALD._An analysis of the account will ahow the hiiTof pfant Mr. Douglas.— It would be something. '''^««^-A- About Q. What is the total cost?— A. $3,110.25 thinfto *^"^''*'''*''''®"'''°"''^''®^**®P'"'*P°''"°° ^""^ ^^"^ ^"»<1 Trunk?- A. I Q. What would be thirty-five per cent ?- A. $1 088 .u.rT' Ki . iu'"°Ji^^ \^^*' analysis of accounts and see what ones are sunnlied chargeable to the Grand Ti-unk bridge ?-A. Wewouldhave to nick ouf a^l fhKnti accounts and allow a certain percentlge to bo chaTZ ^ * ^^^ '''■* Q. What percentage of the coal ?-A. About file per oe.it. Ther^-wS'bolb^Lt!''""'"^"''^ '' '''' Grancf Trunk bridge for coal?-A. Q. What is the next item chargeable to the Grand Trunk hndff»?—X Ti,«,.-. """o'^ftl^"''' '"PP"?' ^t^^^l r ''°"'' »»«^« 'o enumeSe ani'gS re^totaf"* y. iJut they were given back ? * Mr. DotTGLAS.- Still they are charged in a gross sum. You have deduuted th<» WhatTt;«°'°«°^r'//^**P'«««' "^"^ ««° «"J^ charge the loss on tSl^A J!?cenuge frZ. *'"" '''"^'^ '" ''^^ '^"''^"'^ *''"'"' ^"^^« ^ Then dSIicl the Mr* ■D^«I?«''''•TK^''\'^''' ^^^ ^"^ "I ^^S'"®" »°d machinery too. A^ „^{ ^<*"0LA8.— They had a pump and a boiler hired, had they not ?— A Yes I twelve d^r "^"^ 'i^y^ they had it there. It must have b^e.„ theittjn oJ Mr. IponaLAs.-I suppose it was. Thi is all Wellington bridge, you know Q. There 18 a number of items there properly chargfable to the Snd Snk but never mind, suppose we leave them out. e " ""o wranu xrunK, Mr. Chairman.— Have you got the derricks in ? Mr. DopQLAs.— Yes, they are in the pay-list. What is the account for hire ?— I uo not think It IS specified what they were used for Mr. Douglas.— Put in 81,000. 847 ^r himT'^^^J'T^"- ''' ^h^^^ ^^'^ *" *''°«« •»«"«• There are then $10- StnSfl f^^^^u; ^'L^f' y**" *°^ '*«"«' »1'««8 for cement; $556 for sand • rr'Sr/"" W-i. »300 for coal, and 81,000 promiscuous, chargeable to the Grand Trunk bridge _ How much does that raake'^altogether ?-A. 815 469 72 Q. Deduct that from 8213,609.97 ?-A. 8198,160.25. ♦io.ws*.?^. ton Sidge "^ understand that to be the net cost of the substructure of the Welling. Grand T^rbr^;;^"''' '''™ '^^^'' "P' °° '^' "'"'' ^^^' ^^ calculation, the Mr. Abohibald.— I am only working for the Wellington. tion for'th^Two? *'■' '"''^'''^ ^""^ ^^^ ''"'^S^'- *"** '"^"•^ '»''« * oaJooJ*- A IM u I, 1 By Mr. Archibald : Q. Tttke the $60,000 or |62 000 off the #456,000, and deduct this from the Il?8%nn".nH"h '''"''. the Grand Trunk bridge oo.t'«541.908. Sed^Jt ftoTthat whaUtV ^^^ ^^*'** "'' bridge was 1143,908 ?-A. Thatis ju't Mr. DocaLAS.— $144,000 in round numbers, aad the other is $198 000 tainedVnVlf«'w«ni'*"7^^K*'?^""*' I'^T '" "" enormous amount of false work con- tained m the Wellington bridge which was not contained in the Grand Trunk bridiro but I am not uflor that. Now, Mr. Kennedy, you stated th«t you would have dS SZd?^A TtmLrh""'V"*"" f T*"*;' ^""'.'^^ ^'""'S of men having been passed (--A. It must have been actually at least forty per cent «,„^" iTI" *,'»« '»<^t"'i' moneys paid to the labourers over and above the market prjce under the labour contract ?-A. You might put it down safely at twenT;? per Q. Taking the labour account of the Wellington bridge at $116 500 which is a correct ulculation from the pay-lists-what would the loi be at an avoTage of 20 per ceni upon that item ?— A. $28,300 in round figures. "voiage oi iu 8" fit™w"\^''"'" ^^^ «198,000 and see what remains ?_A. $174 700 K„H *u •"*'^"*^ '«**>« "«t «o«'of the Wellington bridge which you have constructed had there been no contract for the employment of labour?— A y^^"^** ^"""' "°^«a, h««n nnJi^t/J*" ^""^ 1 Statement showing what the cost of that work would have mor« thin th« -r-t"""*! °* ''*'""' ^' quantities given by Mr. Schreiber?-A. Not more than the statement we are now working on. Q. What would this work have come to under Mr. Sohreiber's estimate of values and quantities ?-A We have got the first item here, fifteen thousand yar J, of ice, what was the figure Mr. Mchreiber put on that ? mousana yaraa Q. He put 61.50 per yard?— A. That would be $21,500. Q. What is the next item ? the 2^ pe^ coS d'5'uc'feT'' ''''* "^"''" ""''"' '''' '"^^"" ^°"*'"''' «"«* "°* -'t*^ Mr. Archibald.— He gave those figures at a fair estimate. yardfo'ffc:rbe%7dTi'?o&t"''^" " actually paid ?-A. There is another 5.900 ««f5?'"* ^«CHiBALD.-Does that include the Grand Trunk ?-A. There is a cross Sn^nrfh^T™ '"'"""rr P"^'*^^« '^^ o'*^ P'«' ""d then there's the ?ce aU ?o1(j9U yaS?™? '"'^'' *^"' ''''' "^""'^ ''' «"'^''«''^' ^^'^"^ ^-"^ - Mr. Douglas.— $1 to $1.50 per 3'ard. he says valae''?ll"73^r35S for'^ce'remitd'^P"*^ "^"^'"" "^ "'" ''''' ^^ '' ^'« -^«'^« Q. What is the next item ?— A. It is clay excavations Q. How many yards ?— A. 8,900. $17 8^o' ^*'"*''"^'*--^*> »'>ea'i a"d «ay »2 as Mr. Sohreiber's estimate ?-A. That is By Mr. Archibald: Q. What is the next item ?— A. Masonry. Q. With regai-d to that there is a difficulty as to measurement?— A There oan. J.b^S'cXfyaiJs"'*^" '' *'^ meaaurement^of the cent.e pie? bleat we'j^^rrn Mr. D0CQLA8.— That is right ?~,A. There are the north and south abutments which we w. put in at 1,890. That will be 945 yards for eaSh I wa! ^o,W to put in the ballast wall and parapet walls. ^ ^ *° hnf iJl^^~°''°!:''^"T^/^T ^''^ *ae whole thing that will oom« pretty near right but he does not include the parapet in his estimate. ^ ' Mr, Archibald.— The parapet walls are charged for. JSr, ind not with > his outside -A. That is way Mr. DouoLAt.— Not in Papineau's statement. ^^uti'' t*Tn*';""~"i?",'.a"^ "'/''*'' entimate of that account made by the govern- ". •Tfon^""'^^ u.^^W^^ y*''^'' ' P*'«P«' «"*"«. 100 yards, equalling 3 730 cubic yards at $25 ; equalling |93,250. That finished the ice excavation" tLc lav exca- vations, the masonry for centre pier, two abutment*, two ballSTallsrd^rapet of cot-sr*"'* '" '*'*' """"^ '^"^ ^~'^- Cai88on-you are skipping the temporary wo. ks Q. I skip that in the meantime -A. Cofferdam and caisson is charged in this Mr. DoDOLAs.— He said that included unwatering and evorythine Mr. Archibald -No, I did not. Give us the works generally apart from the temporary worksand we will come lo that ai the last. Whft is the^nuE- of yards :l:':^7z^ rr :£or"- ^'^ ^"^ ' '^"^ ^^ ^^'--^ »^-« ^^ i- ^'««« ^- i ^«t „?ifh«nU%^*""P^''?''^A'^*'^''' ^ '^*"' J'"" ^° '°»^« *■'« temporary work until you get all tl^eother work ?-A. You cannot consider the caisson temporary work tou could not build the p.vot pier or excavate the foundation without it ^ harr ♦" M ^?'! *•"■*' ^^^ °"'T° '^'^^y ''^'«'' >'0" "i^d done with it ?— A. You would have to call it temporary work under the circumstances. „^ 1 Y -u I ''^I"^ ^'^ ^'"*.* ""m>u mai me Q. I think he said that he would take it at not less than $37.60: but I think in examination he varied it to a certain extent, and considered that where night work was requisite, ho would charge half as much again for night work?-A Well did iLT.oTT'"'" '^^' *1"".^"T l^^-^^ P^"" "■•^'''^ y«''* ""der the circumstances of the contractjwing given out in the beginning of January ? was talk- contraots JkI w ir . "?'°i' ^"'^^^ ''°"* *^/^* *"""" «« ""^^ •" *''« |>»-opt)ition of three the Wellington l)ridgo nnd one to the Grand Trunk bridge, did vou not ?— A Th IS what I mean, namely, $62,500 for the Grand Trunk, and $187,500 to tho Wollin ing iraci oeing given out in the beginning of January ? S^yen'A*^" o ^^ ^"''^ f •"** ^°"'<^ ^^ ^ ««cure him against damage. He of $.5,600 a day penalty?— A. Under the circumstances in which the i iilV'jZ'ti' r"'3A*T''V'^' 'er tho masonry; butTSrTpena J of Q. At any rate, he said that it would cost half as much again for the work which was done at night, did he not?-A. Yes, admitting the ciSmstences of iu lowing night men the same rate of pay as the dav men. because they would do fiftr per cent less work than day men. " ' ^ '^ mn f?; JS!' w' ir* estimate of Mr. Beemer or of Mr. Davis would give above $200 - 000 for the Wellington bridge ?— A. By far. ' IHO igUHt, 18!»3. iiibHtruntUfeH of low would that two-thirds of it > Grand Trunk the Wollington bund yestoi-day tion of three to not?— A. That to the Wolling- I mean to suy lie quantities to rths of the total examination of Id bo upon the [r. Davis, when Mr. Trudeau, •e $25 per oubio Tune and July ; at is to suy, as iilated that the but I think in •re night work —A. Well, did QBtanoes of the He was talk- the conti-acts r a penalty of opinion, would for the work nstauoes of al- would do fifty 9 above $200,- By Mr. Atwater ; Q, Mr. Iloomor gave uh Homo ovidonco alwut what ho thought would be the Hunorior udvanlagoN of doing this work ovor the ice. Would you ntalo what you think of that?— A. I (|uit») agioo with Mr. Iteomor that if the work had buuudono at aiioihor HOJiBoa of the year, it would co«t a grcit deal Ionm. Q. I do not (|uilo catch your moaning?— A. My moaning is that if tho work was dono in tho Hummor MuaHon. Q. I do not moan that. Mr. Hoemor said that at the timo of yoar in which the work WJW dono, ho could liavc drtiio it cheaper liy doing it ovor tho ice. A. I quito agree with Mr. Ikwrner on that point; Imt al Iho same time Mr. Heomor is a con- tracU)r of a number of years, having more oxtonsivo plant and materials to do that work than wo have. Afi-. Heomor proposed that wo should have a caiMson put in, aiid he would have placed tho dorricks and plant out on the ice and worked into the caisson. Wo «lid not have those facilities, and could not do that. (J. Would it have made any ditJoronco in the cost if that plan had boon followon oi-der to suve the extra work of loading it on to sleds, we threw a cba"n around it and hitched teams to it and carried the*block away en mme wl co J d not carry ,t over the ice because there were the two bridges to inte.^p us nnd we hauled It up on to (he land and had to cross (he tomporaiy bridge with it ' «st Pok -Tu ■ ^^'^ ^^^ '* y ?° }"" ^^^ bank?-A. By the inclined roadway. At St. Gabriels basins a great deal of the small ice we hauled at least a quarter of a rJfn ^Ik T« <^"™P«3 't. My original idea was to dump it all into the Wellington basin so that it would not interfere with letting the water into the canal and block- wLtLtr^'^^'J but the immense weight and number of teams and men tha were there to unload caused the ice to commence to sag, and I was afraid of aoci- dents, and then we distributed it. *^' By Mr. Archibald : Q. You were afraid of damming the water?— A. Certainly Q. Why could you not have taken it up the other way?— A If we huH tnkan if w1tt7 H h" "^''^J"' '' I'" ^"™ weathe/had come on^t would hive raeleJ into water and drowned us out; and we had enough water without making more fhi„^:Jirr *''«7°'^'^» '^a* ^^^ "<>* aUo a large number of barles and other te%?"e^-A'Vm'Sffla^e«4c^^^ '^ ''P°^'' ice for a consider- au.tj-iL e. „, immeaiateljr above ifaeworKs, or wnere we put the cross dam sirer* • fleetS °" ""** *'~''' '**"" *^' ^°"' '^ °°^ ™°'«> "^ *^« hartur comS • 191 Q. So that you had to go a congiderahlo diHtaiico up the canal in onler to iret a place for denoalt i*— A. If the apuoo w»h clear wo could not put ono-third of the ice that waH taken out above the woiIch, ht-cau«o every block of ice that was put above where we wero working would have boon a caurte of neriouH dama«o and Iroublo because it would have melted and wo would have to contend againat water. ' Q. And there was no wpace anywhere ? — A. No Bpaee. By Mr. Atwater : Q. On the I7lh February, on the following day, you received thiH letter from Mr. laront, of which I have anked hoietoforo, informing you of the contract for labour and Htating th« price ?— A. (After roading the letter.) I have Hoon that letter I do not remember the date. Q. It wa« iuHt about a month before you wrote the letter to Mr. Curran that vou pi-oducod here?— A. I could not nay. Oh, I remember Hceing the letter'; but 1 could not toll you whether it was a month or a few duyH. I should nay it would be a very few days before I wrote the letter to Mr. Curran. Q. But you would not be prepared to say you did not receive this letter from Mr. Parent on the date that it bearH ?— A. No. Q. Now, the labourers that you mentioned and of which you complain in your letter to Mr. Curran of March 12, are exactly the samo laliourorH thai you n.o notified by that letter of Mr. Parent's were employed on the contract?— A. No sir they are not exactly. ' ' Q. Where is the difference ?— A. There is the difference of adding pick and shovel labourers at 81.60 a day, that were not mentioned at all. Q. Now, will you take your letter to Mr. Curran and point out where you com- plain of the contract with i-egard to pick and shovel labourers? Where do you mention the fact in your letter that a contract has been asked for pick and shovel labourers ?— A. I think it is plain enough. Where is Mr. St. Louis^ contract? Q. Hero is tho clause in your letter referring to that: "Without consulting any one, for what motive I consider a mystery, he (Mr. Parent) issues specificationB asking for rates for tho supply of foremen, derricks, stone-cutters, stone-maKons double and single teams and skilled labour." Mr. St. J-ouis was announced the sue-' cessful tenderer. You do not state in that letter that any tenders wore a^ked for ordinary labour ?— A. No, I do not. They never asked for ordinary labour, to mv knowledge. •' Q. No tenders were asked ?— A. For ordinary labour, to my knowl«")(re until I found out just as that letter states. ' Q. What was it you were complaining of— that they wero putting on ordinary labour as skilled labour?— A. My principal complaint then was that they were putting on pick and shovel labourers at 81.50 a day. Q. But you do not state that in your letter. After mentioning the classes of abour that are employed by contract, you do not mention pick and shovel labourers. You complained, then, of the putting on of pick and shovel labourers at f 1.50 a day ? — A. Exactly. Q. Was there ever an attempt made to put them on at 81.85 ?— A. Decidedly there was. Their account showed it. Q. Pick and shovel labourers? — A. Yes. Q. Was it ever recognized that they were pick and shovel labourers ?— A It was recognized, proved here by Mr. Sohreiber. Q. That a pick and shovel labourer was paid 81.85 a day ?— A. I say pick and shovel labourers, men whom I could have got for $1.25 a day, wero placed as skilled labourers. * Q. I am asking whether a pick and shovel labourer was ever paid $1.85 a daj ? —A. I know men who worked as pick and shovel labourers, whom I would hf fe placed on the work as pick and shovel labourers, were paid $1.85 a day. Q. W.hat woro they doing when they were paid 81.85 ? — A. Workinjr mostly with crow bars, some time with derricks. Q. How many men do you know did that ?— A. I could not tell exactly. 192 hi h ■!l * t I ' Q. About ?— A. I could not tell. Q. Were there a dozen ?— A. More than that, dozens. Q. Can you tell from the pay-list ?-.A. No, I could not. y. You cannot tell the names of the men ?— A. No. sir That is a riHiVnlm,« question— to expect a man to tell the names ' ridiculous £y Mr. Douglas: Q. Do you mean that men who were only qualified to work with nick and shovel were put on as skilled labourers ?— A. Yes. ^ „, . Q- ^'",^.°,y?" "®"'' ^^^^ men who actually worked with pick and shovel were Ld ^Lv«M k''* labourers ?-A. No. I mean that men who w?re work ng as S and shovel labourers, or as crow bar men could have been got for $1.25. By Mr. Atwater : tainly' '^'^^ <'°"»'*^®'" ^ha* the men were overpaid according to their value ?-Cer. getting a rai; ?!!A"7otr mTwUg^ ' ^^^^ P'«^ -^ «^-«' -^o -- m«stl?bTen'in Cembt.""' '"* *^°'"^ for common labour ?-A. I think it — A.^e^*"** ^"'" ''^"' ''"' invitations to tender yourself for certain classes of labour ? day.^' ^^''^ '•epliesdidyougetto those invitations ?-A. I stated that the other Q. I want you to answer me nov/. tkI" Wt3J«! '*"? b' **"* '^'*"*'' *\^ P*y-''«* «^ *^® '^^y fofce of skilled labourers ) The W1TNES8.-I know no more about it than if I never saw that. "^'^'^"■> By Mr. Atwater : .oi^ ?K ^fk^* ^A^^'^f '^^^ 1°^ S?* ^ ^'^^^^ invitations to tender for labour ?-A As I said the other day I asked tenders ftom five contractors. Three I remember and indPet'/rLy'an ' "'' "«^ ^^ ^ -w. The three were Mr. Turnei^Mr' sMs By Mr. Douglas : Q. Why did you not ask Mr. McNamee?— A. I do not know ask all the contractors in Canada ? By Mr. Atwater : Q. Mr, Turner was a reliable contractor ?— A. I think so Q. A well-known contractor ? — A. Yes. Q. So was Mr. Peter Lyall ?— A. Yes. Q. And Mr. St. Louis is a well-known contractor ?— A. He is verv well known Q. you sent two others besides?— A. Yes. ^ Known. ^' wu*' ^^®S^'®* ^'^ y°^ 8«* ^—■^^ I ^0 not remember now. C^. What did you do with those replies about tenders?— A. In the meantime I had received instructions from Mr. Parent, together with a copy of a "tjer f^om Mr. Schreiber, the then deputy minister, that all the contracts or inv tSns to ruJerTntenlt*:' "'"'' ^'' '^'""^^ '^' Buperintending engineer and not thCgh thi Q. That is not an answer. Finish your answer ?— A. I received th»t latfa.. K« tween the times, that I sent the invitatio'ns to tender and the tTriricefved them. Why did I not 1«3 • » Q. You received that letter from Mr. Parent between the time of sending out the invitations and the time of receiving replies ?— A. Yes, and when I received th» replies I returned them to the office, to Mr. Parent. Q. Did you open them ? — A. No. Q. How many did you receive ?— A. I stated the other day, and I state now, that 1 think there were three. Q. Out of the five that you asked ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Archibald : Q. That was only for stonecutters ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Atwater : Q. You mean your invitations were only for stonecutters and stone masons ? — ^A. Yes. Q. Is this a letter you have just spoken of— a letter of December 29th, 1892 which is filed as exhibit P 3 ? — A. I think so. By Mr. Archibald: Q. Look and see if there is not one of f-- 23rd, to the same purport ? A. Yes there is one of the 23rd. He states in the > nd paragraph : " I am not a little sur- prised that you should allow Superintendent Kennedy to invite tenders when you might have been well aware that it was your duty to receive tenders and open them " Q. This is probably the letter you referred to?— A. The letter of the 23rd. By Mr. Atwater : Q. You say that you never saw the tenders that were addressed to you?— A. I do not remember that I ever did. Q. When did you first hear that the labour was contracted for ? — A. I cannot remember exactly. Q. Did you know that before you got this letter of February from Mr. Parent? —A. No, I do not think I did. If I did I would have taken the same action as'l did in March. " Q. Are you aware that the tenders that were sent to you in answer to your invitations, tendered for all classes of labour, including killed labour? — A. No I do not remember that. ' Q. You never saw the tenders at all ? — A. I do not believe I did. Q. Are you sure you never did ?— A. I swear from memory that I never did— just then, I did afterwards. Q. Did Mr. Parent never tell you that the labour had been contracted for ?— A. No. Q. Now, did you never contract for labour for any works in connection with the canal, yourself? — A. I did, Q. On what occasion ? — A. Not for what I called labour ; I never contracted for labour. Q. What did you contract for ? — A. Stonecutters, stonemasons and derricks. Q. No hand labour ? — A. I do not think I did. Q. For skilled labour?— A. For skilled labour, I did; but never for common labour. Q. Will you look at the exhibit filed as pay lists of the Wellington bridge, and look at the day force of skilled labour, and state what names are on that nay-list as skilled labour that should have been entered as ordinary labour? — A, I need not look at it, beoausi) I could not tell you. Q. What proportion of these names were put in as skilled labourers where you would put them in as ordinary labourers ? — A. I could not tell you now. Q. Could not you make any attempt at it ? — A. No. Q. You know something about it ? — ^A. No, sir. 18 194 fi< ; iii.- !! h If. Mr. Archibald.— 1 object that Mr. Kennedy should be asked to interpret that contract. *^ Mr. Atwatbr.— I want you to realize this with regard to Mr. Kennedy. Mr Kennedy is overseer of that particular work; he was put in that position and he was supenntonding the work. Ho was oiHcially informed by the department to whom he 18 responsible that a certain contract has been given; ho is informed of that in February by an official letter from his superior officer. Mr Parent the superintending engiiieer, and he is lold the different rates at which the labour w^ to be paid. It is for^Mr. Kennedy to certify all the pay sheets ; it is for Mr. Kennedy to refuse men or to put on others. Mr. Kennedy had the absolute power of dis- missal of every man that was put on there that he did not like; if they did not suit i?u f ,T' P"', i^«°> o*'^- ^o''. it w«8 for Mr. Kennedy to make the classification of that abour. If a man was sought to bo imposed upon the government as a skilled labourer who was only an ordinary pick and shovel man, it was Mr. Kennedy's duty to see that the government was not robbed out of the difference between what that man 18 paid and what he should be paid; and I want to find out from Mr Kennedy how far he has done his duty. Mr. Archibald.— The question is this: A difference as to the classification of the labour arose between the contractor and Mr. Schreiber, and the contractor troes to Ottawa and they arrange the thing between them. Now, you want Mr. Kennedy to tell you what Mr. St. Louis' contract with Mr. Schreiber means. Mr. Kennedy had no responsibility whatever for the classification of the labour; that was between the government and their contractor. Mr. Atwater.— You are entirely mistaken there. Mr. Archibald.-You have got nothing to do, says Mr. Cunan in his letter to Mr. Kennedy, with the classification of the labour; that is a matter for the de- partment, Mr. Atwater.— Mr. Kennedy was not informed by a member of the government at all ; I do not know that Mr. Cunan han anything to do officially with this matter The first mistake you have made is in stating that the government took the classi- fication of labour out ot Mr. Kennedy's hands. They never did anything of the wU .^.'^u'®'y™?J*® * contract to pay so much for certain classes of labour : but they left the classification of it to their superintendent. Mr. Archibald. — Not at all. Mr. McLeod.— Mr. Parent was und erstood to ask for the men, to call for them ; it was dis^nctly said so in the letter. Mr. Schreiber distinctly says that the men were to be called for. Of course that means that the class is to be called for and every man as wanted is to be called for. ' By Mr. Douglas : Q. Did you have any dispute with Mr. St. Louis about the classification ?— A I had some dispute with him, but I do not remember as to that point. By Mr. Atwater : \ ^\i r^y^^^^i '^o^*''»° ♦Jj^'oilgh ^he pay sheets, raise the question of how the men should be classified ?— A. No, I never did. Q. The men on the Wellington bridge and the Grand Trunk bridge ?— A No Q. Take this pay sheet of the Wellington bridge. You have just stated in your evidence that you knew of a number of men who were run in as skilled labourers who were not skilled labourers ?— A. I did not say anything of the kind ' Q. What did you say, then ? I failed to understand you if you did not say that What do you mean when you say that men were paid as skilled labourers that should not be paid at that rate ?— A. What I meant to say was that if I had had the work I could have got men for $1.26 a day of the class which were paid as skilled labourers and which were not. ^ "vruxoio, Q. You consider, then, that men got paid as skilled labourers who were not skilled labourers f—A. 1 tell you I am not going to be brought in to define the contract be- 195 . ^ tweenMr. St. Lou m and Mr. Sohro.bor. What I undorHlood from tho boKinninir when tho contract was submitted to mo and I received a notification, wan that picl' and shove labourers were to be placed at «1.60 ; all other labourers Who wore work- iKlKibourot'a" IL85 '^""' ''*"''' ''"'^ ""''''"' *"'^ "^ *""' ^"'"^ ''' ''» ''"'^«'^ «" I understand skilled labourers to bo carpenters, stone cutters and masons. Apart irom that, you may ouestion me from now till doomsday, and I will not differ iVom that through any technical questions you may put to me «.-n?; ^"'^v'.^»"\*?,|*"o,^whethor on tho pay sheets of the Wellington bridge, men wore put in as skilled labourers who were notskilled labourers in your opinicm? A. in my opinion all the men who were placed on the pay list of the Wellington bndgo as pick and shovel men, were pick and shovel men at $1.60. All others who rkToIi tbourors."'''' "*"""'"'"'"''' "■• stonemasons, were placed, in my opinion, as Q. That is, you put on the pay sheets every man as a skilled labourer except men working with a pick and shovel ?— A. 1 did not. ^ Q. Unless ho was in some other category ho was a skilled labourer?— A Yes Q. That is ail ?— A. Yes. Q. You did not attempt then, to make any classification of the labourers outside that classification of masons, stonecutters, derrick men, and soon?— A i had no aiithority to do anything of the kind, because that had been done already between Mr. St. Louis and Mr. Schreibor. "ireauy f -f 9" ^"'""ot^ttskingyou what your opinion was; I am asking as a matter of fact, 1 am asking you as a question of fact, whether you attempted to make any distinction between the labourers ?-A. If you had a man here without an opinion how would he answer the question ? "P'"ion, Q. I want to know what you did ?-A. I have just told you two or three times. «. f« rk • r" f."®'"? to make any distinction ?-A. I certainly made an attempt as to the instructions f understood and received through tho definition of the different classes of labour between Mr. Schreibor and Mr. St. Louis. .„A Q-fi"'yo"^'^ not attempt to make any distinction between skilled labourers and others unless they worked with a pick and shovel ?-A. The men who worked w th a pick and shovel were put down at $ 1.60, and those who were classified as stone- ^utters, stonemasons or carpenters, wore put down as skilled labourers. As to naming the men on the pay-list, I did not know the names of one man from another y. They made the arrangement, but they left to you tho selection of the men ? u i^ '?'^^' ''^n® '■e'"'*'"^^ to the men, either directly or indirectly «„^ f?-''" 5*1 . ''^•~''>*'y ^'^^ "0* •>"•'"« ««°h ™an "P to Ottawa and classify him, and By Mr. Atwater : Q. You stated you thought you had never contracted for skilled labour before Will you look at the accounts of Turner & Co., dated 23rd April, 1892 and stato if that ,s certified to by yourself? This is fyled as exhibit C 84?iA:'S;'tj;u righf Q. That account was rendered and certified to by yourself ?— A Yos Q. That is labour and material furnished by contract, is it not?— A Yos y. Do you find some skilled labourers put in there ?— A Yes Q. Atwhatrate?— A. $1.T5. Q. What month is that ?— A. April, 1892. By Mr. Archibald : ^. Were the tenders sent out by yourself ?— A. Yes. 13J 196 pfr •r si' ' i'3 Is- By Mr. Atwater : Q. Who did you send the tenders to for this work ?— A. Thai was for spiine works tnat had to be done in a hurry, in the month of April. I sent tenders to Mr. Turner, and I think to Mr. St. Louis, and I think to Peter Lyall— five or six Q. Just as you sent tenders for the labour on the Wellington bridge ?— A No-- not just the same. The labour on the Wellington bridge was work that would last longer and this was a hurried work. We did not have the material and did not have the plant at the time to do any work of that kind. Q. I am asking you if you sent out tenders in the" same way that you sent out tenders for the work on the Wellington bridge ?— A. No ; I did not. Q-.y®'"® your invitations to tender diiferent in any way ?— A. I think thev were different. '' ^ Q. In what respect were they different ?— A. For the simple reason that at the time when I was supen endent of the Lachine canal, they had no derricks and had no men that knew how to run derricks. Q. Now, will you look at the accounts fyled as exhibit C 85, and say if those accounts were certified to by you ? These accounts are rendered by Mr. St. Louis in 1892, for a stone wall at Cdte St. Paul, dated 31st May, 1892 ?~A. I remember something about those accounts for work done along the canal. Mr St Louis supplied the men and derricks for the work that had to be done in a hurry Q. Did you invite tenders for that work ?— A. I did. Q. And sent them to about the same parties ? — A. Yes. Q. And both these works were done under the contract system, and under the day 8 labour system?— A. They were all done under my supervision. Q. The labour and material were furnished under the contract system ?— A. Q. Were furnished by contract ?— A. Yes. It would be well to find out what the amount of those two accounts are, and compare them with the amounts of the two bridges. Q. Will you look at a copy of the letter addressed apparently to you ? I do not ask you to say that it is a correct copy, you have not seen the original. It is signed by Turner & Co dated 20th December, 1892. Please state what that purports to be ? It is filed as C 86?- A. That is a call for tenders for for3men, stonecutters and masons, double teams, derricks, cement and labour. Q. That purports to be a comr of a reply made by Turner & Co., to an invitation to tender for the work on the Wellington bridge, does it not?— A. It looks like it y. Ihe letter was apparently addressed to you ?— A. I never saw the original y. ^ut this copy IS apparently a tender for certain classes of labour in connec- tion with the Wellington street bridge, and lock no. 1 ? — A. Yes. Q. And it tendered for skilled labour, derricks and cement ? A. Yes. Q. This letter from Turner & Co. starts out by saying : " In reply to yours of the 15th inst. " Would that be the date of your invitation to tender ?--A It would appear so. . « u io«o^' i^**^' ^J^&VQ another copy of a letter here of the same date, 20ih December 1892, addressed to you, and which I file as C 87. What does that purport to tender tor?— A. That is something about the same. It is a tender for double teams and single teams, Q. It is a copy, apparently, of a tender made by Mr. St. Louis, is it not ?— A Yes. Some of those items would probably be added in. They were never asked for' Q. This appears to be a tender also for skilled labour as well as for teams does it not? — A. It mentions that, but I never asked for it. ' Q. But it appears to tender for skilled labour and teams, does it not?— A Yea it does. ' - ^^^, ,K.r3' ?»,*''*? *^T^ ^^ '^y'"S = " '^^^ ^^°^® »° conformity with your honour of the lOtn inst. f — A. It does. Q. That would apparently also be the date of your invitations to tender for labour? — A. Yes. • • 197 Mr. Archibald.— I think that ono of Mr. Kennedy's letters has been filed before this commission If you want to infer from this class of evidence which really is no evidence at all. that Mr. Kennedy's invitation to tender differed from what is in his own letter which is produced here— I think I have seen it before the commission— your course is not fair. "luioBiun Mr Atwater.— I do not seek to drag Mr. Kennedy into anythinff at all But 1 do not want to lead him or anybody else to believe that his invitations to tender were different f';om what they are. What I want to show is that tenders made were made, not only by Mr. St. Louis, but by a number of other contractors, for this verv labour before a contract was awarded by the government. Whether they were *^ ®^ A*''^ "*'*' *«"'*«" ^«»"« received by the government for this class of labour ^r. ARCHIBALD.— Perhaps you will inform us where you got those copies ? <-.„m w ™ATER.-The8e were given to me for my information. I did not get them from Mr. St. Louis or Mr. Turner. goi-tuoiu Mr. Archibald.— It is always suspicious when we have copies without the originals, *i, ^'■^J^'^^'^^^-—] will get the originals if I can. I will find the originals, and they will be produced here as originals. ' «i«„Sl ^Tu' ^xTir®""® ^\^^}^^ other day with regard to the number of men em- ployed on the Wellington bridge, and you said you did not want to give an answer until you had heard the answer you had given before. What did you mean with reeard to five men being employed where three were enough ?-A. I think that the repiv Igave to that question the other day was this : The fact of the men knowing that they were being paid by another contractor and working under the superintendent would be a reason why the men would not do as much work as they would have ^^nf li pYk ^^^" ?''"* directly by the government through the man who had control of the work. Another reason, in my opinion would be, that the time beintr so short, the work would necessitate a larger number of men than would have been sufficient If the water had been let out of the canal on the Ist December, and re- mained out all winter, m which case it would have required a leaser number of men to do that work than were required to do it in six or seven weeks. Also if the water had been let out of the canal in the early part of the season, there would have been no ice to cut, and consequently a fewer number of men would have been re- quired. Take, for instance, the excavation. You take a man who would have four feet space to work in, the next man would have four feet space, and so on, up to twelve feet; 3'ou put three men in there, but under the circumstancesof last spring we would put five men where these three men were, so that if there were only three men working continually they would have done as much work as five men were able to do in their places. Q. You do not pretend to say that the contract system, or the system of em- ploying labour by contract, is responsible for five men being employed where three men would have done?— A. First of all, it would be. ^ t- j Q. That is one of the causes, but it would not be responsible for the whole of the surnlus of labour J.-.A. It would be principally. It is not altogether the giving out of the contract, but the men knowing that they were working under a head whS was not paying them, and they were being paid by another who was making a cer- S-l"b*?KTi*'"' ?^ "'^™- ^^^y ^«'*' «"^ th«y «o expressed themselves on the woiks that the contractor was making so much out of them, and they were not go- ing to kill themselves. "^ ° •J?" ^^" ^H^^ y°" ^''"'*^ .^"^® S°* *8 °»"«^ wo'k out of three men employed and paid by yourself, as you could have got out of five men knowing they were em- ployed on a contract ?-A. To a great extent. ^ ^ ,•„„ f?' ^'^^' ^o^ ^^V°°* J^'iT'' ^'^^ ^^'^ ^^^ t*»« PO^«f of dismissing and discharg- ing those men ?— A. Decidedly. s ^ 5 Q. You did dismiss them ?— A. By the hundred. Q. And you had the power of engaging them, too, had you not?— A. I had. y. As a matter of fact you did engage large numbers of men ?— A Yes H- This was on the Wellington bridge only ?— A. On the Wellington bridge only. 198 li I' li Q. The men knew that you could discharge them ?— A. They did. Q. And Itnew you had control of them ?— A. They did. If I waa sUndinir where a hundred men wore looking at me, they would work while I was looking at them; but at a little distance away there might be two or three hundred other men who were loafing all they could. Q. Is there not always a certain amount of loafing on works of that size?— A No douDt about it. Mr. Davis stated the only way vou can overcome that is to keeiy Backing them. ^ Q. Have men more inclination to loaf when they work for tt ernment thaa when they work for private parties? — A. Yes. Q. You find that is human nature?— A. Ves, any man will shirk. Q. More especially if he is working for the government?— A. I think so; Q. To what do you attribute that?— A. That would be human nature too knowing the government was at their back. *" And further deponent suith not. The commission adjourned till 2 o'clock. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. Afternoon Sitting. Montreal, 9th August, 189;-{. E. Kennedy, examination continued. uu- M»;- -^TWATEB.- The copies which I have here, and which I will put in as ex- hibits C 86 and C 86 are copies made in the office of the department in Mont- real by the clerk from the original tenders. Mr. Archibald.— That would seem to me even a stronger reason why the copies should not be produced because you obtained tJ,em from the parties who presumable have cuarge of the originals. Mr. Atwatkr.— As a matter of departmental regulation these things are made in duplicate. ° Mr. Archibald.- These tenders are not for the same class of work Mr. Atwater.— They are all the same. Mr. Archibald.— Am I right in saying that a copy of Mr. Kennedy's invitation to tender for labour was produced hero and referred only to stonecutters and stone- masons ? Mr. DocGLAs.— 1 saw something of that kind some place. Mr. Atwater.— We know what the tenders were. They were for all the labour Mr. Archibald.- Ido not care what the tenders were for, Mr. Kennefiy's request was only for stonecutters and stonemasons, and that is all he is responsible for Mr. /twateb.— I know that the contract for labour was not awarded without competition. Mr. Archibald. — I know that too. Mr. Atwater.— I do not care what Mr. Kennedy asked foi-. The tenders came in and the contract was based on the tendere. I would like at this point tO' emphasize again, because there seems to be some doubt in the public mind which I want to remove, the fact that tenders for this labour weio put into the department and that the contract was not awarded without careful consideration of the prices sub- mitted by a number of competent contractors in this city, and that the reason the government had for giving out the labour by contract, was to avoid the 199 ing Ht ir men > keep^ t than ) too^ 18 ex- yfont- opies made ation tone* bour. ][uest hout iders It to ichi nent Bub- 1 the th& risk of Btiikes and to avoid trouble in secuiinir men, as. owintr to the simHon i^f «hn year, aud the hurry in which the work wuh done, difficulty in feourin^ Zn .nilt h? a„t.c pated. I would therefore like to have tl.e\lTr:7of\eS rf^la o f p'ro. duced again. A« far ae Mr.Kennody'H individual opinion goes, he may have '^ull conHdence in hi8 own power to engage men, but at the same time thZovernmont tTm^e r;L^sj;?' Werts;r^*"« "^'« "^ ««^ '-^ - ^^- ^--''^13:"-^^ Mr.ARCHiBALD.—Mr.KenneJ;fabour"tA?Not';:BiS:el^ "^'"^ "*" ''''''''''' '^ ^'^^ invitations to tende^nt?ir DoTt r^eme^Se^r' "'^ " """"""' "'^^ ^""- '^""^^ ^« «"P-'"- of f?; inTil'^*''®^°Pi"QoJ"'*',*".®''^''?'* letter fVom Mr. Parent to Mr. Sch.eiber fLi lOtb- January 1893, enclosng abstracts of tenders and also the abstract of labour required for the construction of the Wellington street bridge and also ab- know whTSf r"""- ' •" "^^T"'^' T'"*"*^' «*• ^"»^' «««« ""'J TiSttier Do jou fh« TrnT^ 1 K *^" ^a""?5 ""^ '"*'""r ^y «o"*'"act '^a^ recommended at all by any of the officials here ?— A. Eocommended, I think, by Mr. Parent. ^ By Mr. Vanier : Q. Are you sure of that ?— A. No, could not say positively. Mr. Douglas.— It is in one of his letters. Mr. Parbnt.— I df' it it. Q. Which of the assmiantB of Mr. Parent was it you did not receive the assist, ance from you t.Koughtyou should have had?-A. In which way ? h.\Ji:.Z°9 '?^ wu^"^-^'?*' °^ ^/- P""*®"''" assistants you did not have proper help from ?— A. When did I slate that? I'^vpo*^ Q. In your examination In chief ?— A. For what reason ? 300 u V ii • ?■ ♦ j°4° °^- ^°" Simply made the statement that some of Mr. Parent's assmtantH did not render you ase.Wnce ?-A. I must have been asked a question relating to a certain work or a certain part of the work or a certain time ^. Did any of the assistants of the superintending engineer not eive vou the SgeworJT '•«*!"*'■«<* ^-A- ^ y«» me"" in connection with thf Wellington Q. Certainly ?— A. Yes, 1 did make complaints. Q. Who were they?— A. 1 complained to Mr. Parent that I did not receive Tiecessary plans to go on with the work from the department in proper time I think I specified it m my letter to Mr. Parent, and verbally. A T*S'*f ?°" anything to complain of with regard to Mr. Papineau ?— A. No I do not think 1 ever made a complaint with regai-d to Mr. Papineau ' Q. It was Mr. Desbarats only, so far as the engineering staff is concerned ?— A JLhTJn'^^H* T,tf' ""f Mr Papineau replaced Mr. Desbarats, that we should p,^ bably need a little information, but 1 do not think it went anv further than Ikir feS'S MrPapineau! "*"' "•"«'"^'- ^^'' '"^king any complaint to Mr. Pareni Q. You have no complaint to make regarding Mr. Parent himself?— A. No I cannot say that. ' Q. How were the workmen furnished you on the Wellington bridge?— A I have answered that question several times. rr..fS:i^^''l^^^^ furnished on requisition ?-A. No, I was asked that question yesterday and answered that I was on the work at six or six-twenty in the mornine ^«nin'^*'"^^^''"^"*^ so oflen, in fact, changing every day, that we had too!-' *.„^i!i ♦f *^^ T u'"f ° ®''®'"y '^^y- ^^ *^^"eh ^® J^«f® commencing new work. It hink I stated that if I had to go to my office and make out requisitions, and then hunt up oi-ganized "*^' ^'"*'"^ '*^® '° *^® '^^^ ^^^^^^ ^ *'*'"'** ^*^® ^^^ S*°8 Q. Then, you engaged the men yourself ?— A. Decidedly. r! wi" ^'^ ^^*' ®"Sage any men on the Grand Trunk work ?— A. No, sir nn^a^:^ K * T®" r"f 'tT^'' ^^^ believing that the masons could be 'better engaged by contract?— A. I have answered that question several times also Mv answer was that stonecutters and stonemasons at that season of the year, during March and April, when there were a great many contracts to be let out, might be difficult toget; and those claesesofmen have labour organizations which control the wi'i f.T^!^?^ *•"*' *""® *"* *^® y**''' «^ ^^^^ i' ^a« «»y opinion it would be far ;<.]!. hu \^^ contractor responsible for the supply of tfiose men than to have to deal with a large number of men of that class. «f I,., 1 u° ^o" "A°'xf*'°u^ ***® ^'*™® reasons would apply to the employment of the otbei labour /—A. No, because commoner labour at that time is more plentiful. .««n^; Might there not be causes that would render the aupply of labour scarce, even at that time of the year ?-A. They would be very exceptional causes, and there were no prospects, m the early part of the winter, of there being any large contracts to be given out, as they are generally given out months ahead. ^■. .l".* , }^ ^"^ desired to avoid any doubt as regards the supply of labour do r«l"f n^'"V* '^''u''^ ''^'"^^'■ *« «ont»aot for that supply ?-A. Ido not think so. I am talking from the position of last fall. =n„ .?■ ^^ \a ^»? '^^i desired to avoid any chance of any sort, are you prepared to say It would not have been better to contract for the labour?— A. If there was any possibility of chances, it would have been better. ^ Q. This work had to be done by the first of May ?— A. Yes Q. It meant serious loss to the country if it had not been done ?— A. I think it 18 » veryserious loss to a great many to have it done. A ».?■•. I J ** "*'* '**^® ''®®° * ^^^y serious loss not to have it finished ?— A. No aouDt It would. Q. There was a letter addrasBed to you on the 10th of February by Mr Parent asking for a report of the progress of the work up to that date. Do you remember that letter ?— A. I remember a letter to that effect, but not the exact date 201 r-nnS'-^^.r" *'''* ^^"c !:«PO'''?-:A. We made out one or two, possibly three reports of the pro|?re«8 of the work for certain weeks, and when I fXd to send in LTr^r:^"' *"■• ^"'"' '''''^ ""t ^«'''«"^ ^^y i '^'d no? Ike It the repo t hl!LnlH n.^ff ^"^^^'-y «P'0"« to hear regularly from the workn.and I told Kim he could quite understand himself that it was impossible for me to make out reportT w I was outside on the work every da v from fourteen to eighteen hours nerval He said he quite undei-stood it, and I think afterwards Mr. pfrent ^ot reports hhnl a 'wiJ'T^'.f ."•" ^"^ ^'•°'" "« ^«^bally as he came on the wX fj- w -7?^ ^*f '**^ '*?*® ypl rendered a report ?-A. I do not remember. Q. Was It after the receipt of that letter I asked you about ?-A. 1 think it was. dered'^on^'or^twTo^'p" sTbTth'i^r"' ''''^'' "''"" "^"^'"^ ''** ^-^i^'^-A. I ren- timet m'ake' tCetSfd.^'" '"' ""'' '""^ '' "^"^^ ""^ '"^'^ ^-^- ' ^'^^ »« «t'-» Q. The subsequent reports were simply verbal communications?— A. Yes time fbr soThhl^J"? A f "T*!"''. ^^'^- '»>«' you said to Mr. Parent you had not time for 8cnbbl...g?_A I protested against that; I never made any such remark. Q. How often are the men paid in the usual course ?-A. Once a month every twoV^ks'"'^ ""^" ^''^^ "^^''^ paid under the contract ?-A. Nearly n,«nH" ^A ^il^ the men were paid twice as often as they would be by the govern- bien gi7^n. "' '' "' °"'"' ''"''""^'"^ '° ^"'"^ "^ *»>« V'^ymeL they have Ma ?* 7*^" were asked by Mr. Archibald with regard to this letter of the 17th of fwt f oTth^/^^f "* ^- r^'i'^^^- " ^ ^'" draw%our attention to the fact Eat hSnd for Mm 1 -n ' whicli the contractor will erect, if we have not enough on hand for him, we will supply him with necessary plant to carry on his work " Is iLmhimS?*" a"*«.'5'^ '"?''""^°[ ''' ""'^ ^•^'^ tools, orVoes he ^'supply tnem himself ?— A. That depends on the agreement with him. -k^ M 't not usual when a contract is made for certain works, that the contractor should supply the ruaterial?-A. That depends on Iho form of the contract fn,.n,S;«»'TCf'r^ nothing m said about that, and the contract is simply for the per- foimance of certain work, has not the contractor to furnish with tools, derricks and ?rito?nn?'' ^'''k *"'"' *,°. '""y °" *"■« work?-A. I do not think here is a con- wS« h«r L r'? "'^'^ r"l^ ^"*r '"'" '""'^ * «0"t'aot without first understandL whether he has to supply the tools or not. BWiimmjj worI?•l,?^?,?u"^*u*° ^ty that if a contractor undertakes a contract for a certain JJact »?a3S°fi have to supply his tools ?-A. If a contractor enters into a cou- int«r« nfn /In "t ^T. ^ '^'^ * P'*°^ **^ ^°'"^' ^« «"Ppl'«8 ^is own tools. When he aTaTaii r Sis'* " ""^ p^"* ^"'' ^'^' ^°"'"^«« ^''^ ^'^•^p'y «^ ^'« «-° P'- ' Mr. Archibald.— This is a contract for the supply of labour tl,««„^;lt'^^''''■^~^m^*?'* ^^'^ ''*^® been trying to make it into a contract for the supply of work. This letter practically gives you instruction to supply the contractor for labour the plant, to carry on his work ?-A. Yes. ^^ ' for H^ih rSint V "^*'' goes on to say that Mr. St. Louis would be held responsible *<" such plant. You understand that, I suppose ?— A. Yes ^,-«„?- "* •'" ^'"^ ?"^ °^ **>* '*^'^ "«°' yott *>ave, under my (reading letter") direction,8uperv,sioa of the force to be supplied by him which he will engagf at any rate he inay make. That gives you supervision of his force on both briSs ?--A 1 neyer understood it so, nor Mr. Parent either "nuges r a. l .tRrf?oS*h! ll -^^ I* w^^r**"? ^'^"* Of March you have been asked about. It ,winf ,-fc*y\"«i. ^'^^. ^"!?*>«' reference to my letter no. 13307, dated 15th i„Wir '^^^ ^° ^ l"P?''®^ ^y ^'' St. Louis for the work at the Grand Trunk work^f Kwo I'T ^'^r-'ln^^^? '' % '"^^^^ '^^' »^'« J«tt!r re'ers to the TnH «L'lt '^ '*"^«r"r^'"- St. Louis will be held responsible for all such plant, and as m the oaae of the staflf men you har- u„der my direction, supervision Sf the lorce employed by him." What do you n by the staff men " '-T They have no 202 connection whatever with Mr. St. Louis' men. They are regularly emoloved on th« canaK and none of them work under Mr St. Louis. 8«'«"-'y employed on the Q. And thotie men worked on the Wellington bridge?— A Yes VJ. The etter draws a distinction. It says : "Mr. St. Louis will" he hnlH r«»nnn reUe'rTlTii" Jt V V^' '"^'^ ™«".' ^^^^ ^ave su^Z-vSn^TL^for: ' ™^^^^^^^ letter implies that you have control of the staflf men, and also gives you control of the force employed by Mr. St. Louis ?-A. On the Wellington bridge ^ distinction" '''**" '~^- ^™'*''^'*''"'^^''- ^"«"^ ^" '-^^og"'^* the Mr. Archibald.— The letter is clear enough. It says that Mr. St Louis is tn i^th^T^?"^ '° ^'"^ ^r 't* "«« "f ^''^ •"«" «"d" hi™ on the Grand Trunk br3« 3onl wS"/v. "t'T''^ ^«'- V*>«i. ^o'k. What does he want with this p Un t, if Wil done w. h the bridge once he has supplied the labour ? What does ho wpnt of nlant if he 18 only supplying Mr. Kennedy with men ? P " Mr. Atwatbr.— He supplies the men an^ Mr. Kennedy had thesunervision ?— A a'i^^nrtrWdnS'.r ^ ""'' ''''' ' '^ «P««'"' control^of theQranKrbHdg^e nn t^'' '^TmT""— ^ ?^"°* »'•" than y,....r own estimate of 20 per cent. Ml. ARCHiWiSi I, -_^, «,. bu( he put- 20 per cent uh ->w eHlinmte. Mr. ATWAT«a.~Ut, „.*y» in his letter to Mr. Cuirun .t wns il.2ft. % Mr. Vanier ; .i,iiSi^u"™ ?.*-^5 ^° •'•'^**' '^^'<'h would imike 20 per cent?. Bkilled labour tor $1.25, what pereoi,ta«e would it nuke then? 189-Mh«^?n rfi^^"' TrP"" '" AP"'- 1892 than in 1893 ?_A. It wa. ncarcer in latf- than in 1893. The comparison of work for skilled labour in 1893 diilors iu8t wo^ln';?L;'l"''l^'"'''"^•^''^'^.''"'" "'«»'^''"'- ^»>'« reason, that to Ke Je^rickl ? «„. "' '^"'/■•'P'T ''* •^'^* "''' ''"'•« "»y ^'""i^kH. kevor had any tn .Mm 1 "".^if «''">« °""«'. and consoquentlj did not have any men who knew how to run den.'ok8 or how to put them up, and we had toHolicitlJbour for that purpoB^ the t2v f. 1 ?rom ' "^«V/''"'*^ ^y ^'- "^"''''•K^. that you changed oertai./nieS on the P«y-liHtH from capital to i , icome ?-A. I do not remember any Huch changea. woreihey not?-A. Ye'n.^"" '"'^ '''"'^"^ ""'' "^' '° '^^'^""«« ""^ appropriations. aiJDP n.Iu^.rt,?,^''" ^1"** ''^" ««} appropriation iu ma"''a^ ^Vn anything to do with the cutting of the stone of the Grand Trunk tionfl';rvtt?rh«ifn" """^ **"* '"'1°'' ^K *" »*• ■^^'^'"S "O'-^ than the instruc- and recKd -^ ^asurer. to see that the quantity of stone was delivered Mr. St. Loui's^-A.^Yes*'^* ' ^ '*''*'' *''* contract for labour had been awarded to Par«?; ^ ^Ppi''^'"* * '^"f : ^^^ ^ ^ . -to of Febvu -ly, 1893, addressed to you by Mr. fh« wi I- f 'T* '*P°'*, "i'^' • '^ ''^ °»«« on ' ^^ progress made with tL work on the Wei mgton street and urand ..rank bridge substructures, and th« w "rkrfn cop jucuOD thorewuh.' Did yuu receive that letter ?-A. I remember it, but no"t the Wfffl Q. Have yon any doubt that you i -eired that luttfir on that .l«u «. ,u —A. I could not Hay it noHitivelv " *'*^ <*' ••^« "^xt - Bay it poHJtively ^l. I have here another letter of 17t to Mr. P„.„l ,h.f , c„„1i S..kf.„;?oZ"„ .he'SS ■CVh*,'"^ t™*'' aa to running the work *" ' ^"^""k bn.Jt^o, fhat id whic?- h^'s TrrdyTee^nTea'dTo-rwlerre dl?t '"'"f ^l^^^'^"^ «^ '^^ -»» communioated to you. You Notice th^t thin iLt*^'"" °/ """"".^ labourers ^.w as well a8 the Wellington bridC? -A Yet ° '■''^'" '" *^" ^^'•'""' ^runk that ?ou'Lt:nyt'hin|?o" ri'l\rGS tS ^'^ '""«'• °''^ «^ ^P"' ter8 f-A. I nevir ignored them °^ ''"'^«®' -^"^ 'K"°'-«^ tJ^ene 'lot- nffloJ?" .?° ^^*^^'^®" .*?° y**"* ^'»«« that pretention ?_A I Htated tn m« officer, the superintend ng enirineer Mr Painnf fh.f r«^.M ; '■o my suporior of the Grand trunk bridge ' "* ^ *'''"'*^ "^^ ""®"^ '» the work ricks on the canal to receive the rtstonT I to /m™tk^" fu®. "'"^^^ ^^e .lur- He then said to me couM you n^t'omeri gilfno ^our'atic": '"^ '' '« ^•^'' '*• the w^ori''^' "" ^ "P'^"'^"^ '1"««"«" ?-A.Shere ias a lot'?f'diplomacy around Q. It was not for Mr. St. Louis to give you authority Ml'. Vanibr.— He wanted to furnish the labour. By Mr. Emard: K.-. ^' ^f- P»"°t, on the 23rd of March, wrote to Mr Paoinean • "W. ir being actually overworked by having in hand th« rw^naf;.;£*° '7~ , *f^- Kennedy bridge and relpairs on the La^hinl cfnLl, and tv^'^atd ttaThelt W ^'"'"^'^^ tend the masonry work on the Rrand T..n„rr"5i- -u_'r*'**®°oo'dnotsuperin. presents anthoriied to take charge of the'said Wk8rndT«nnll«i^*K" f>'^ ^y" these of the men furnished by Mr St Ix)ui8 Fn mT^oo! t ^''.^pntrol the time-keeping assistant to keep the ti^mf o'f ?he meTemployed ^ hrwS"'*^'''- V4' ^ cognizance of this letter ?_A. I do remember it now. ^°" ^^ *"y m 206 «f . h?rI°„"w"rt,*T^K ?f *^l^ '**"*? **^'"S '^"* *° ^''- Papineau and his taking ohareo of the Grand Trunk bridge ?— A. I remember it now 's«"orgo later^Jn ^*'*"''-~^ understand that that order to Mr. Papineau was countermanded Mr. DooQLAs.— Mr. Papineau, in bis evidence said it was Mr. Abchibald.— Mr. Parent says it was not.— A. I say it was nerer counter- Mr. Archibald.— Mr. Papineau said it was not carried out. Mr. IJouotAs.— He said he had orders not to carry it out Tr«n. !l" ^^^^.^«-5 "nder»tand from this letter that Mr. Parent wanted to give Mr Kennedy a k.nd of help in the matter.-A. The name is not mentioned the.^ ArAfS'Jrr*"^.*'!.'*"®.?^- '^*'^1.'°.*'*® letter._A. The letter says: My hands are full and I cannot attend to it. That is explicit enough Mr. Vanier.— That was written on the 23rd of March, lone after the work had ^^ M "f^aS: • ^^rui ""'''•''''^. '"''"' "^« ^«S'°"'"g '^^' I cf uld not attld to ??. ^n. rib ^"A»°-St>» he continued mentioning the Grand Trunk bridge in every one of his communications and letters of instructions. ^ Mr. AaoHiBALD — Bemember, the work only began the 8th of March, to MJ^Kelnedy"! ^^ *"" ^'" ^''P'"^*"' ^'- P"«°t ^^^^'ed to give help Mr. Emard. — He wanted to relieve him. Mr. Archibald.- Not to relieve him, he never was there. »a. n ""■ ^'M^^"-— M;"- Kennedy practically, in the first part of his evidence, said there was no overseer at the Grand Trunk bridge, and in the*^ latter part he said M St of Mr.rLouis.'""'"''- ^''''"''"'- ^'"''^ ^'■"'''^ ^"^ overseer ^under the diSation remeireve^j^hiiT "'"' '""*'''"' ""' ^"'"'^ *'"' assertion ?_A. I cannot Q. Is that another opinion of yours ?— A. No ; it is not an opinion. By Mr. Vanier : Q. Mr. St. Louis was around the works ?— A. Yes; every day. By Mr. Emard A No ^"^ ^°" ^^^ '' strange he should be there having to furnish the labour?— ii. By Mr. Vanier : was ^" ^*** ^^ "°'® '^^^^'^'^ ^^^ ^™"'^ ^'■"'^'^ ^"'^^^ *''*° ^^^ Wellington ?_A. He By Mr. Emard: A m; S 't "°- * ^*"' i^'^t ^^- Tradel went to you rery often to get instructions ?_ ^:.J{ ^°"'^^«"l*i "P"?® lo «»« and sav that he would like very much if. when r^otlrglta'^Jirn^^urd'^'^ ^^^-^^^^^-'^ bedone./would b^ gS^S '!f ^.Iff r*' '4' ^'■- S.*' H'" «*»« «°°« «'• t^i«« to the sheds to know if I would fo'-^owith That Tt rr^'" • °^r'°^s/o»'d b« Pia»«d, and I said I had nothing crme Tnd show m^." ' '° ^'' good-natured way and said : " Mon bon garjon" 1 < J t I t{ r< a w 01 C( :ing charge terraanded >r counter- arent will give Mr. )ned there My hands work had tend to it. in every give help said there d Mr. St. dictation I cannot abour? — f— A. He itions ? — if, when be good From me work. I I would nothing I garjon, 207 as ato^nec'^uW^rtanf mS&L^^^ o'n'ly'in'lj^vaJPfhl/^.^'*- ^*-.^«"'« '^' »»«» «"ch ment of stones Mr. St. Louis clro^^ t? L wo kT'and ifnM r"'"^^''^ «'«' «''"«ig«- on a certain day to cut the stone ' "^ ^ ^^^"^ ^"^ ^« wo«W be remiy tin,esTwti\ttn:s"l^ou7;t:^rSlr„Ce'"^'^^°- f"'"^-^' ^«' ^^ other more men, I would tell him that w"iouId taki onl^""""*'"'' *"^ ^« ««»'d employ Q. You applied for the men ?-A Yes "* ™"°^ """'^ •"«"• ^i. And he furnished them ?— A Yah- o.Io^ *^ c • i . Q. You were never short of m«nV 'i/ ^ to furnish them, the want of stone. " °^ men?_No; sometimes too many on account of Q. Not through Mr. St. Louis' fault ?-A No -44 -A.^Y":s;1tr^St^e t:iX ^■•- '' ^-^« «"«^ h'« -one contract me„?f ?^eSZ7'ilZZS^:^,,^^^^^^ - Trudel or any of the fore- went once, as I have already slid when Mr nZJ ""^"^ "«" employed ?_A. I dam or caisson, when the water 'broke >^ aJd tf f authorized me to'^look after the over and took charge of it, and TruSel fdt v«^A„hP" k^ "^^"'^ ""' ^^^-k-I went words, and I told Air. St. Louis the n«vf SI -^ ^u^ ''J^''"* '^- He and I had some but that probably he felt a Httle so.TasT woSS TJ'.l^'^ ""'^ ' '^"^ made i tup! out o.^h.s hands. Mr. S.. Louis said ': '^.^ ihTls^^.i "^^^^ -h^f.^^^^ Tt^f^ ™an^.^ t!^^tt -^^--« - JO «^^^^ ,,„^ ^^^ % Mr. Vanier : Mr. St. Louis. "'^ "'*'°" *° '^'^^ «"y Pe'^sonal spite or animosity against ^^^^^y^r^rZ^^^^ That did not out all their contracts for sum,Iie8 at whlf t, ^«pa'tment. If the governmet gave body else, it is none of m^Cness p om fh« 7^^^ to Mr. It. Louis orfny! work and being interested, I ZuZ'l wish> SntJhn''^"/ ^^V''^ ^^^'S^ of th^e with what was goin« on It was nm.i Z J u -^ ^^""^ *« ""ake him acquainted «50 000 or halfl mi'lli^^n dol aroutTthe^Jvernmr. ^'t?'^^'' ^^- ^'- ^on'sr^lfe •n doing so, and I think him very clever in feuTngThe'cha^e"'' ^'''''''^ J"^^'^«^ ByMr.Emard: not hVrny'et/iiy r ft^'^W^airvs"??^ ^^ ^'^ ^''^ ^^''^ ''^bour ?-A. I did on the works. ^ ' ^^^'^aj^ gota sufficient number of labourers right A. ^.tS^JtZZ^tryt^''"^^ »- were sent there by Mr. St. Louis ?- ^o^^^^fom:^^^^^^^ Mr. St. Louis would require Q. They would^not all require to go ulai?f?'''rr^ '^''''.^^ '»• It would require a squad of police todifperse them fr± ^^' "*"" ^o^^^airs either, there. *^ " uiBperHe mem trom the square if they all went _V "^i.j ^'''^^ ' — A. A great mauv did Rut I h«^^» i ' '.. " ^"® ^po' and who did so. I know that Mr. St. 7ol sent me u ^nmhT f^^ '*«' «^ \^lox,y^v^ of Parliament, political friends of his reauestTn^ th«t^ "l* ^f}T ^'""^ '"^^bers course, he was the man supplying th^ lalTS t^^-.L^rti^mtZir h^ ■n- 208 t**' Iff k stated, no political or other inflneuce had anything to do with me in the putting out of men. Mr. Vanibb.— So far as you were concerned personally ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Emard : Q. Were there any foremen on the Wellineton bridge that Mr. St. Louis had to supply you at vour own request, and to whom he had to pay more than 40 cents an hour ? — A. Mr. St. Louis never supplied any foreman to me at my request other than when he came to the work knowing that I was not a contractor, and did not have experienced men, he would assist me in cairj'ing out the work by selecting certain men whom I told him I would like to ha\ o placed on the work if he had no objection, and they would have to be paid as high a rate as they were getting from the department, and he said he had no objection. I refer to men in the employ of the government. "^ Q. Was there not more than two cases ?— A. There might be 10, 15, or 20 or 50. There are no facts in connection with the work I wish to hide. They were about six. Q. He paid as high as $6 a day ?— A. Only one foreman at $6, two at $5 and I think three at $4 a day. Q. Was there not one at 87 a day ?— A. Not that I know of. Q. Mr. St. Louis was only getting $4 under his contract ?— A. I believe that was all. Q. What was the night foreman getting ?— A. 60 cents an hour, or at the rate of 86 a day. Very often that man worked out all night, and when there was trouble on the work, he would come out and help us to manage the men. He has often worked half the day as well as all night. Q. Those were men that you selected ?— A. Yes, who were working on the Wellington bridge. By Mr. Atwater: Q. Did you have any men working for you who were incompetent, but were kept there by reason of political influence ?— A. No man that I found incompetent was kept on. There was no political influence that could be exercised over me to keep him there. Q. Y^ou said that men would come to you with letters from political parties were there many such ?— A. The men who came to me from political parties came through Mr. St. Louis. Mr. St. Louis received those letters from political friends of his, and they got a letter from St. Louis to me, and they were stonecutters and stonemasons. They were the only ones I received any letters about. Q. You would not undertake to put thom on the work without your sound approval even though they had these letters ?— A. If there was work for them to do, I would put them on, and if there was not, I could not put them on. Q. You took a man on his merits ? — A. I had to see him at work and find out what he could do. I could not tell before then. Q. If he was a competent man you would keep him, and if not you would send him away, whether he had a letter from political friends or anybody else ? A. Yes. There is always a certain percentage of men in large gangs who are incompetent and that cannot be overcome. ' By Mr. Emard : Q. What is your appreciation of Mr. Trudel's ability ?— A. 1 have already stated that he is a fii-st-class and very competent foreman, and if I were a contractor having a big contract, I do not know many men I would take in preference. "— Q. That was the foreman of the Grand Trunk bridge supplied by Mr. St. Lonir?— A. Y'es. Q. He is the one who has been referred to very often in this investigation as Mr. St. Louis' foreman ? — A* Certainly. • ,» *■• b tl in le do 81^ • ,» 209 Trun^kbri5g??llTeB"PP'"' ""^ ""'' ^'- ^"« »»d he had charge of the Grand £y Mr. Vanier : KctKrhSt^.?^^^^^^^ h.m ShoMT him what to d?And he wiU "^^I'^SHk'^' ^l"*' ^'^^'^'^ **> <^''^"'^^^^ but he may not have the head or the ab litv fA „? ™*^ '°*''® ** firsUlass foreman ^ Q. He had no head to dictS e to him ?^ A nP °"* '.'/!?'" '"^^ ^^^k. been there from 7 in the mornineuntil 6 inTh^^? "°^ ^'- ^^^ ^"is could have have improved considerably Ifhe work he did "^' ^ '^"'^ '*^ ^'•- ^'^del wodd By the Chairman: Q. He had some interest at stake ?--A. Most decidedly. £y Mr. Archibald: menSoAhT^i«grn\^i5^^^^ A. I drove down thire this raornin., «n7? ^ . ^^^ measurements this morninff ?_. 130 feet lineal measur:meir5 ^ !>' S ab^e^watSr mit^ '^^ "^"J!' '''^ *"-«- ment It shows about 124 feet long on top 4 fel? 6 fnoL^K • I, """^ °" *^« ^^"^"^ "but- Q. You cannot tell what is under wato. ? a ^ ^'^^- . Q. That would probably make M, Paiillatvl"' '"""'P* ^ ''* ^''^ ^«'«'- «»t. A. As I stated before, it is brobable that C P«ni '"«™®"' P'"^"^^ correct?- from the plans, but I am certain the. •«■««,« ' •^'*P'"«»» f fiS«'-08 are correct taken of the W^ngton bridge thaT L {^an howTbrare'l ^""S!," '''' '^« «''»''»«"'« there, as I said before. ^ "' ''ecause w« could not go by the plans work^'^as^'JonSr '•-'^'^ P"*" '"'^'^^ ^« P'-«P«''«d from the measurements after the £fHrar.^::Fs^rtrovft , . that^L^Zntn^r^^"'-^ «^"^«^ - *"-Tc^S ry^?:SX ^^^^^ jncl„rrh:';L?„Tthrper?anlt*lK^^^^^^^^ Y'''^ ^-^ «^«5.000 that left on hand and the plant^and thrfllfetork'^l'l. Xr;i'i:i^„^,"ISea!'«' -Serial By Mr. Douglas: SgnS by ^™'?'"' • ■"»"' "^ "" """f «"»k«P.r:c.r.i W ^- bf ^/Z^our,! Q. Wb„„„„Mtb.„„„dof-A. I,.ppos.bew»..oMr.a Lo„i. u, b, paid. If 'i m \7^ in' jta. hi. i.i; W' 210 t,-m«?v '^i'^^T T''* 'J*'^ ^"u ^ *''t''' '^'P" •^^^'^ «g«'° *"« '^a'ts two weeks doesit'i'es'erveriiJ:'"''-^- '''""''" ^""^^ g«* through for two weeks he all kXds'':? law "*'"'' '' ''"' "'*^ *'^« '^^P"^™^"^ employees?-A. Yes, with By Mr. Atwater : Q. These exhibits D 1 and D2 were orodnonH hv \r.. d„-ii ^o m. . . writing on this where the word 4pitL^^oS-i-^^^^^^^ ^^'' '« y°" y. Explain those notes of yours?— A I exnlainflH that u^e^ t l that at the end of the month Mr Baillar-toonlnno ,S« k ^^^''''^- ^ have stated men worked, and from my iory /JofnVSn id do^^^^^ or define where those longl-I^V'^rh^teo^rber"''*" appropriation where he diftt be- .•P:T*'''*^''-~'^^*h®®"dofl'io famous bill for lumber from Mr rp „. By Mr. Archibald: You confess you were wrong in that?-A. I confessed I was wrong. By Mr. Vanier : known it" b?dun!r" "' m^o^n.iions often made in Ottawa ?-A. I have tersft^meriLfo7o"r:;.'-^J^^^^^^ - other mat- amount of appropriation was not sufenT'l^'woTd l^ZiAZ^SJ!'' ''' Q. Q. 218 i;i'^ By Mr. Atwater ; ™ gimt'w""""^' '^° ™P«"«1'-A- The onljr w.y I k.„ h..,.d i. report By Mr. Archibald : no..h.Vgr"Aeri'gt';K".°ior""'''^"'''°°'<'''' '"^ »™»- -hick is Mr. Emard.— I do, and you know more than I do. And farther deponent eaith not. E. J. DUGGAN, Stenographer. Michael P. Davis, contractor, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows :_ By Mr. Douglas: Q. You area contractor of lonff experience I believA ?_ A n»it^\. u-i Q. Have you built any bridge abutments and piers ?— A Yes some anything to the eoffeldam or cent™ pie^'^ ifwM i^f" elh^tm? ^I tf • ,°h ''°°° .c4j:re'JS:„%™rr„:;:ti«™o;-r';:SiLz'te^^^^^^^ b.ulinguplce. (Wilnes. is .hownphotoJmnhexMMtr «•,!•• ^''P "T asAzir, tfe'"^-"' ■'"^»'- '»» J-i' aw^t'on vs ttr ^i: Q. As a contractor, would you have constructed that olatfoi-m ?— A T onniH „^* f/n. if ™;y ' •"°°*'' ""°"°° "■ '"« "»"' 'o ""^ i» wb.rwVl»oS3'h.t Q. Did you see the plant on the work?--A Ye« Q^As a coutraotor, did you think there was an unnecessary amount of nlant? -A. Do you mean plant, or are you referring to derricks ? ^ ^^ ^ • » *l' 213 ourselves. Ve had Hevenlund.l SScte a^^^^^^^ yards this spring about 4,000 yards. ^ uorrioKs and one travelling derrick to build had ^ev^ltLtil?Zl7^^^^^ ^i' ^"^ t^-^i" ''"'^«« ^o'-k too. Wo as any three stanfing derricks anS wShi^/"^ t"'u ' ^""^ '''** ^"""'^ ^' «« g«od yarding, it was the vf rv be«t ki'-.r w! u^a T ^'■*'"'''® '" '""^'"^ '*>«»• For our any ordinary three orTourdeScks ^"'^ *""" '""''' ''^*'' ^««' ^'g'^-*" g««d as woul^ySlTidl^wnramwatand 'i"^ ""^.T '''' ^^''•°«' «'• «^ « «-*-ctor carts ?La a ffreat dZ rl«nt^7^ u °*'""®** *''® material that way instead of bv om bridge, with feir bearinl. Si, iS^l, JL- " "? n«™Mary?-A. We mate bearing. „„.'SL"Ut' """""' """B""-*- Generally fl.lied timber, four o.r.i?g£:e»;rrorlrrl;'L'."'f3'„'";,sr^.t^^'« •»- '^'"^- ^- "• .be|;,s,crTp?snKzn:;s^i«r'^»-«^ "- •» -. but I was not there any tfme when the^ Trl in'"' .?' ''"''? .P'^'' ''^' ^^'^hed, the level of the sur^ce of the ca^al ' "'''"^' ""^ °"'' '''""'^^ ^^''^ «'' "P *» built^fiJ^^-'^he'sidronS'cia toTh'S i^ack??^^ '-^- .'^'^-'^^ T^ ^ *^-^'« -'"k right out on the level tovv-path «nd connected with the yard, which ran the cialV^By StySr: :ft2Z^:\i'i *^' i'T «"°""^ '" *'>« bottom of alUhat platform ?_rZraateft?orm!h^'^^^ ''T'' ^^^ T"'** ^'^^^ "^"'^ed doi,|;xp:irr.^?scst^u-.r.::r;at''"°^'"''- n„m?er",;? Z"„ "S T, 'n'eetTryT a'« Jh"" "''"»? """' "" » '""«" employed. necessaiy /—A. More than a contractor would have vatio?-o?Se''Sa?f ru^k'abuImen'ts'rA ^Th^"' '''''' '""T ^^^^^^ '^ »•>« — ' when I was there I though? 5?lo.-.i T^i^^ were at the Wellington basin side was mere, i thought it was just about the same style of work all through! uu ir; hi' I .b«u?-A"„°;r.SKtnZ£:* ffbVtl''±'L°^'¥^^ " -"y-' «■» '"King ^ .tL;]ip"'° -;^''"'"^«- '" • -•.^tS!Xrpt7,ttTr jf^o! 4? , on .h^.%^ri„'rfctrw\Sd'rzrb%?: tT- i.^l'rr'""''"'^ ^°° !>"' than rock. "" worm »- a jard. It is far more expensive t.ke?„u?S-;!;'':ro:b''.™', fndtken rt?; &iJ^^ "«™ "T" '"" "'■> «• ■>» you put „„ for removing he o/draMMiVfAnl" ?'""?• «"»' Pr-ce would .n summer time i. ,i 4^, but^.TbSiU^ a^yurS' 70^ 2" S'^i SrTm^ . Q: I°e™rS,1nr.ryS1L7'reS"l''''r",'"P'" ""b-rk »-A. No. excavationf-A.Unde? these cTmSJnS'rd^"U"£? T.'!!^"" P" <»' »»«'" " b,g pr,c,, taking the who.e iot. It S^LtS^t w'eirnd'/Sl"""''' "' ■Bi/ Mr. McLeod : ' A. N^o; m";e{X"ittgS?r Ifthe^e^i' ^^' ^^"j' ''^'^'"^ ^^^^ masonry ?- Q. It does not include the Jir«*ffiir^^r^^^^^ away. ^ getting the hole ready to builS P"'^* «ffi"'ng behind the masonry ?-A. No, it is thee?;.th:Lratbn.trtfhr:iYttb.l7id- ' T^' ^^^^^ with reference to ^^^Q-r-atetS-svir^^^^^^^^^^ " "^^^ some hauled tUe-quarters of a milP,lm!^i!?^''^^^^^^ the bank and We hauled materia? in Toronoir^n"^^ "^ ^^"3' penalty?-!! three-quarters of a mile and" u^t us over 60 cen^P^''"" T^'^ ^ ^^'^'^ '^ '"«'^« was ,n the summer time, over a goo3 asphalt road ' ' ""^^ "'' P'"*"*^ ^^'^ *l * 219 *l > By Mr. Douglas : v..,iM- ^"'^®'" these circumstances what price would vou ' nut_«? %n 9 a mu bu, ding would cost a groat deal more. Of course the stone aET »„«? ^^- ^^® sari y cost a creat deal mm-A r ™,^.,u ^""'?*'' '"« S'one nuing need not neces- circumstancesTt were Thor; In dS n/i'^*^""^? I* ^^'•■^' '"^'"^ '^ »"J«'- ^he the fall before,ready to fill the crib ^ '''*^^ '* '^*"** "" ''^« g'«"°d % Mr. McLeod ; building of it, it „o«ld not .ftot tlit J, 'of buUdi °g. ° ""^"""» '° '"' ■""■ "■« -By ifr. Douglas : by th^e p?ece^"" ''" '^' '^'^^ ''''' «'«"^ *« ^"^'-^ ^7 piece work ?-A. We cut all yard ?_A VZTl,™«1,r''i" '„'' "2^"" ?" "'"""'"K « 1°' "f «'°°« P«' «""« -.-, 216 oentB H base foot, similar joints and base and inM-^ '" uu«'* *'"*«"«' ^^ PV 15 «"«. «' angles, or anything of that so. t "'' *°°' '''*''°"* «°^ oh iselecf draft. A. I didVo"t'serany'^h^:oVd\^^^^^^^^^ "«« '^ *!!« ^hi^el draft is all on it?- ners of the pier., i S 'd St on the cJrne'r'of'tV^ ""«''' ^' '"^^ piers^or cor- 1 raise the question of chisel dr»ft T ml u! ,. P'®"- '^e Pay t^-ra. Wh«n and faced ol Whereve. we bufcf I StS of^Jo k'^f.^""* 'IT •*"?'« ''f *»>«?!«" *•>«?«'•«" f three or four Inches Vhat is Jid for «f '''''^ *t""' '« * Pl"™b*^on cording to the width. '* P*"^ ""^ "^ so much a rising foot, ao- or^Z'y^l^;^^^^^^^^^^ '^tjZ\tZVr tocut2,000yarda stone. We9tarUto^out?nthe9thZ^«r5T ^^."V^ ^°"'^ t"ke to cut the onfourtimesasmanymeraswefounn/^K i.T^"'^ **" '^ time limit; we puS ^ Q. If you take th^e pHcepersquaSe foot for Ji«^^' needed when we got doC faced ashlar, you would have to nnt^nul- P'^^*' ^'"'^ »"«! f*"" lock stone rock But I would not %ure tocut L irthro?vJ'*??"*''''^r""'"''«'«^"«n?-A. CertaSly a third of the time^requlreS^aiNrverlleit "''' ' ^°"" «*' '"^ ""^ ^«'P ^« -" •" givenVr Yel^^Sf'cou JsTwoTat H rS^^ '^k^'^'^'"^ *»>« P--« ^ou have will cut of each class of wo 'k; the numbe?^^^^ number of W th^at a man every d^. ' '"" "umoer ot teet evevy man will cut is in the book locklte"! rn^on'Thot\\rS\f:;:^ average. Dividing that by the 47 ffet wirmai^ th«^ about $2.76 a day on the working on those fame fig^ures that ivill eaiHl ''*• ^' ^"'^ '"^° Si/ Mr. Mcleod : % Jfr. Douglas : __.^^Q. I. .hat n,.de in . ,i.. „. .fc, end of the m„„.,. ,_i. j. ,3 „^, ,„ .„„ „^^„^ {.rg,'^;u'iot"utb*rSS?.^LT'',itp.i',;7- P«yn.. .„eh a have men working rieht stiaio-ht oi« ^''«>« "igbt untiiprr^r^jrvrnrsS ^'^^r '^ ^^^ ^-^ ^'^'-^^ -^ --^« a break on a canal occurs. We Vet orZr^ J u ^J" ^"^^ ^^ accident, or when « • *■« *l* 217 night he will get Beven hours and haltXthofirhn 7'".''"' ^^ "'^«" until mid- 19 completed. If he workB until «ix o'clock thJ^ir** *'*'^*'*? "^^^ »>•« ^^^y'* ^'ork for the ten. Tha. i« what wo pay om-sel veV "'°'"""'* **" «'^'* ^^""'^^ ^o*^" -fiv ifr. McLeod : ^y Jfr. Douglas : thecofferdTm?nVt*hou^nCerinL^^''7''i^^^^^ '"^''"'J"'' thefai.e work now to tho price of «25 Ty^^tn- mi.rv ir''S> ""' " cofferdam. You refel- be a bulk su*;, for unwate-CthoHo S '^Ttrn^!"^ '^Z P"""^^'^* *»>«" «^«"'d bu.ld.ng the masonry and fuf nishingTterilfft ft "' ^'^ " ^"'^ '« """P'^^ f«r aent Siceltlts^rm SO^Tardtr SL' ."''""7 '" *»»« «— ?-A. Our pre- 4 So it ie nearly douUein^ win er J^^"?^''"'*''".'' °^."«''^- J' o e in wmter ?_A. I fl^^ure on its being about double. By Mr. McLeod: ou ,?VbJi.lK ih A:nSl;.V.TC ir T ;"• ""•<"■ "" "> "« let ningthrough th« cnn»l from a mi I abov« ^i? "°""' i'^"" " '"''■°' '«'- ?-A. We build from y. How much sand to a vm-H ? a on, ... We might say there is half a barreU?;.^^,? ^^'d be twice the quantity of sand sonry. If you,, courses are very h gh yo^^^ «^ '^""d *« a ya^rd of mi quantity. -^ fe" >"" will ^ret a little more ma8on:y to the same maso^;.,f ThritTclmtnti stone to make a yard of Of faad'srnn^tLSn':V2rA?o.S^ ^irP'^^ the average proportion Q. Have you ever had^castn to 'mSbvtLf '^^*i'" ^°"'' ^^''^^ ^^ ba'cklng the Lach..ie canal employ a good dea! o??a?oi "' '" ^"""'''"^ ^~^- ^« ^id o^n Q. What is the average nrioe for ^ood labourers in the snrin. of th from ^ ,„ „ Monti-eal from 31 to ll}?.^^y!-^' We paid th e'.au is spring $1.2.5. #e h "ff ^ear, say laboutr^*^' ^'" paid" higher than 61.50 for good labourers?- ave paia here at ■A. Not an ordinary iJ 318 direct f.om-'me. Hin orT-VaTPJou X '1 '"^.^^^^^^^^ good orJer. If you wunt anvthini> rom« t« r ^®, '""^hinery and keep it in consequence they come to mo and diHCusnTtr^.'l^.^t 'ttin knorwEKT "'' °' Q. Whut%ui-8di(lj.„„givohim?_A, I gave him 125 « varf «o long as it wa. only a questloTof emDiovZ n," •"*• '^ T''*^ '""'^« "« difference was not deeper or hi-ho? employing more men, and m long as the work tion-^TK wo^l t1>rfeSt"^""' '' ^'^ '^^''^'^ ''^ *»^"^ "-° ?-A. 20 foot nuviga- enco?-A .\^7"^^"'"^« ^•'-•«^ ^° « 24 feet navigation ; would that make a differ- ofco|r.^rr:?e^Scri':,To\r^^^ the8Tht;rr;r\rofto^'^^ ^he job between, say, Q, Suppose the depth had beCn int-easTd bt' two fS' A "\"" '^r^^' for ai> increase in the price. ^ teeti-— A. I would have asked Q. Whilt price would VOU havn nut .in 9 A T ij without the fiiures. ^ ^"^ '" ^~^- ^ ^°"''^ "«t »"8wer that question A. Not a. .11. We ,„„W k„e hVJ: irpla/„',S S*'' " "'" " "■" o"- '" A. i}oi"r.srcKt4''cr;?7.v' ''• ™"-- ^-y ™»-i""y ^- .n Jr ttrqS:"" "" '"'" """" "°°''' '"'- "<•""" '!>»" ?-A. T could „„t wouil'tltrSS:"!^*- '"'>"'''"'" '»»■»?' '»»".»■« that ,ue.ti„„. T,..t '•■• 219 1... Ll7i i'Vrdt-X "'yT '" '"""""■ ' "'"^ >•»" -^"''" >'.u WO.W ,..iou. no.lu'H^yS'"^'"'"""'^'"""'""'" '■■ ">" »l"«l«Hon/-A. U would takeitoutbydo.riZ'^ "*"'*' ^~'^- ^^ J«P«nJ« "P^-" whether you cart it or would ce,.taini;in™croa«et"ollf^r:oTal'""^^^^ '^^ ''' '"'''■"'^« «f ">« -"ii^.H five c"nt/a yrd.'"7f^;~Vi,Tr?n'derHoU:t 'V 'S'^^*^^ '"^^^''^ '"^^ «°«* ^«"'- or not make n Jroat deal oniilronce '" ' *"'^"" ^"' '" ^'« '"^h, it would §■ Th„" !^^h^^'\*}^"' ^u"^ ^""''^ «o^«'- 't all round ?-.A Yes froze^Vl';. DtTdedly'"' '"' ''^ '^ "'"^^^" "^ ™«- ^'««'^^ «^ --val when it i« thectJLrnt71TTJrr:ati^r%''S.t ^^V--T,r ^he year and all price of rock. ' '^^ ' """^ '^'^ '^o''* '^""'d be fully double the Q. And the same may bo said of the masonry, I suppose ?-A Ye« of rte o,o„ would Ko"oK ^ThL ■ """'°*° ' ""''" "y •'»'" ^ P«r «"t Q. All the time ?— ySs can ^,| tlTaC k^^a:3:;^li;;;^- I" «J''to Of the best supervision we youB^poke 'SrTrSet^^? ^'Tdidirsa^ i'° ^d^^ "' thin masonry, of which piece of work to be done in a hufr'v and T ?nlH iJ T^l " calculat^ion. Here was a double the prices of doim/it uSr oidLl^ i ^'' ^'■"' *"*" '* ^""''^ ^e worth fully «25ayard. My calculatL wa no .no^edoS^, '^^^^^^ ^^"'•* »>« "^-^"^ conver^*ntion. '°'®''<'"'"'® ^'>a" what I am saying hero now in no. d^o^^.^r;r;Lrit/?fr'rruat?i''2r fr'^ ""i ^'"' -'" I named the figure "'^ satisfied to take it at those figures -or^^^Zor:Li^t:^:[^i::i::i^;^^^ ., your definite. ^ could ?-A. Put your question in a different way, more Q. That is definite enough for you to answer ?-A I cmnor nnsu... •, H- ouppoBintr vou had tn hvi,.„ «k« : i «>»'not ansiver It. had taken fhe con^^^ct" tSat is afte JaJS^rvT T ""wH'''^' '' T' "^-^"^ ^^''' y"» , at IB, uiiei January /—A. When was the contrac given ? 220 fl Ir' J A Q- Supposing the contract was given at the end of December, or Ist January? 7±X":ZltXneV7^y ^^" ^^'"^ "'^^°^ «^* -'--^ 'given'so^ S 8um,?er'^p,ev?o'u";iir TJ. "' ''' * ^"' contemplated a contract arranged in th, »if ^^ ^i"* '^ the contract had heen arranged only in December, it would have altered all your calculations?— A. Most assuredly. Q. Would it have increased your calculations ?— A. Decidediv thin.?au4eto';\XTon'-''- ^ ^^'^ "«* ^^g'" tosay. It wJuld be a different fK« .^^^^^''P'^'m Z^^ ^^'^'''''^ •'^ * different thing ?-A. In the first place, quarrvins tf If '^•'"''^ ^''''" "^'' * «''"'*^: ^''*' '"«'•«• You would have to use m%-Tplank "^ fnnlH h^~'" every way every item that you could mention on the whole works would be increased in value. You would have less time in which to Dreoa-e and more contingency of the men going on strike. It would not be the same'wo?k'at alf be aV:nZi:Tivxzii\7''' "" '^ ''' '^-'^^'' -^ '* -"''^ - haveienJ^onSn" Ye' '"' '''" ^''^^''^ *° ''''' **>« «''°*'«^* «* ^'^^ -^« :rou Q. At the time you spoke to Mr. Trudeau about it ?— A Yes y. Supposing you bad been spoken to about doing the work in December of the same year or ,n the winter in which the work was d?ne. would you ha^e quo ed thesamefagures?— A. No, decidedly not. yu" nave quoted Q. Would you have been prepared to take the contract at any price?— A Yes vou wouldlTfofr' a""vo''""J'' "' "T '^'^.^^ ^l- '^'•"•^««"' «^ «bout how much you would do It for?— A. No, when you limit it to that time, it alters the whole oir- cum8tances o the case. When 1 givetho.e figures I was suppolg that The work Januarf to°do i? TvTt fn ""m ^k°"'"^ '^'' ^^-""^ ^" '"""^'^'^ of Decomber or wm.L. ho. II ^ ^'\*'^ 5*'*''**' ^''^ "o' » seasonable time at all. Masonry work that we w.ll do next April, we will begin to prepare for next month Tett?nJ ^n'.H"!f' 'h'*' "" °", •^f"'*- u^«'" ^**^^ '^''^ ^« ^id last spring, the m™?er al wa aU piled on 1 he ground about the Ist December. i^ «. " '""<-«' lai was an 4 ^: ^"} '['^^*^» a public necessity that the work should be done and the cor. tract had to be let in December, your calculation about the job would have been on ""'^ Tn n'lh""^'°'" T^'^-^- ^T'^^y ^^ P«'' ''^'' *« douile the otheJ^stimateH )« ^ «Q-^ ,fn 7^-lf' ^''" "'^"'^ °«^ ''"^^ t" f^a^e contracted to do this wo7k foi- less than «37.50 to $50 per cubic yard?— A. No at th?V«k!^'^'^u^"9^''A T'^ ?'.'*1"'* ^"'■'^'^ ^'^ >•<*" have any opportunity of looking can-.l w?rkTth;"ir "' \'°'^tcer of fact,in your experience as acontractor,whether, in r;LTe'af by fal s'^woT/s?" ''''' "'"^""* ^"^'"^ "'''•^'' '^^'^ ^ necessity V-A. What A. S;m\ rm"a£Tfo3arn';l;': SetT;. ""' ^^^^ «"^ ^^P^"^ ^••'^^- ^^ Q. Are temporary bridges a necessity?— A. Of course there is a necossitv in in that case, as there is in all cases. It all depends on the locality, the c mven ionoe of your piling ground, and how you have to get your material in °""^<'"'«»c« „.„ A V y"*" 'Y ''■^''"' ^^^ '°c»"^:5^ there ?-A. The piling grounds wore a good distance away. It was necessary to have a certain amounf of tcm^orarv bridges and roll ways to get the materials in. «mouni oi icmporaiy Q. It IS a pretty busy part of the city there ?— A. Yes n" V u 'i "^* " ^^^^^ ^^^^ of superfluous room around ?— A No • 001 . ^^^^}lpt^^^^^ te.po...r,etructurea carn?d ^':':o^lXZLT,T^^^^^^^^ work that was bein^ -A. Larger than on a smaller job ^ other works, would they not? the Xf-rTtt:VXZ:'r^^l7r^^^^^^ ^^^^re.t, or out of order to make a comparieon^of the ne^sities vou wLl T "'^ ''°"''' «"®<'«- 1° the circumstances of the two places ^ "''^ *'"''® *° ^P^'^'fy distinctly not??:£ ^°" "^"'^ "«^ '•'^^ ^« -.V whether the false works were a necessity or ation^an7?a1^erorr?ii^^^^^^^^ to take that material in orout forrildinllhemLnnr '"t" *»«* would be necessary an estimate for building the mason woT In Z? J^V ' ^'^P'^ gave Mr. TrudeaJ "'^'^O' rt dT'^'/'r!- -:rthrng:ftat k n tou^ht'in'"^ "'^^ "^^'^'"^ ^ '^^ I YTAfaZl\f:.'ZTZTl^^^^^^^ cofferdam^^A. No Cofler-daramingis unwatSg ^^*""« connected with unwatering?_A' or m?;cn;y ^-l}o^' "''' consideration the cost of the removal of the old cribwork »aso?;/a.^fr ^^" ^«^« -- «-P'^ ^o/pu^tUnT«VTo^iy yards with havete^nti'dtrere'JonfmiS *« -Iculations that this work in the winter, or rjho fall of fh« L« ''^'•*''' ""'^^ *^^«« works. Doing mentioned you say that you wo„M not ifke^ to Ce 'und'^ 't' P"««« '^^^ '^^^^ mont^h ofDrm^'rT-ll' ^Z^ lUlrtttln'rb '""''"f ^^« -"^-* - the masonry couid be built for ^S a yard ""^ '"''"*'' «^ December, that % ilfr. McLeod : By Mr. Atwater: have to consider the risk of a strike^^a man wa",„H '"'"T'" t''"*. y«" would contract was published all oveV the co.uUrv he ZZl^fV ^f""'^^ f^2,m, and the that penalty in order to secure himself a2i„st 7h« 1 11- ^"^ ^"^ -^.^^ ^"" '«»#?^h of »2,500 extra on the cost of the wS so af "o n •ov^l?''-''^ .** '^r ke. I would put Q. Any prudent contractor w^ul^do thariXpo!e?-A"c rT"?"^' .ikei?to^c7tn""U'" ''' ''-'^'^^y ^ri^/e ?hT:;;;tn'SS\h wa« those^^r a74r'ora[fo;T^^^^^^^^^^^ -^- Jo the remaps of that kind except for ourselves. «uH wr."s„ the ^«^ .> ! °^'''"" ^'''"' anything of y. You use it like plant ?_"a: Exactly '"' °^'' *^'^'"- ~A%^.Xl'Z:±;':^l^^^^^^^^^ bemg camedawayr •2-2->. >'l ! 1 '' I • ♦kS: '^^^^^ -^ ^''"'i experience ?-A. My experience even now on our own works 18 tiiat planking and anythinir portable will be curried away Q. As a contractor, you tind it extremely difficult to stop that?— A. It cannot be stopped. A certain amount of material will be lost or stolen. Q. I do not suppose even the government could stop thefts' of that sort?— A It wWUost you pretty nearly as much to have watchmen to guard it as to let it be fn .^" I'lu^^^i ^°'"^^^ '° " work of this sort, if you want to have an adequate force to guard the debris and material, it would cost as much as the material is worth ?- A. les, very oiten. dam2ing?-A Vo^""'"^' ^''^^ ^"" '^''"''^ "''* '"^^ ^« P"* ""^ ^ire on the coffer- nnff^H^SfJ-'"' 9"°r ^heiher there were any special difficulties connected with the cotier-aamming ? — A. I do not. Q. Would it bo an expensive job if the cofferdam was flooded at times during the work so as to delay work for ten days or so, by the backing up of water from I „'.y h ' \~^- F''? > ""^"'^ ^I'^^l^y "' ^^^^ *'™«- I do not know what the expens^ would be to protect it against flooding. It may be v o-y expensive. If you simplv had to pump it out again, ,t would not be such a great matter to protect it against ^ * I' J? ItSt By Mr. Archibald: cumsUnleT?-rYet''''^''"'''*''"''**'''°'''''* ''"''^ "P'''' ^°"' ^""^ ^^''^^ *'"- you, hav^7ou*not^?-V yj's^''**'*'"' ^""^ ^"^® S*'* ^ ^«''<'« of organized labour around w.,b^"f-?K ^r*J'"''.u*.r"''^ make any difl'erence as to the possibility of doing work of that kind with the same efficiency you could, if it was to bo organized in a hurry with green men ?-A. Certainly. As I say, if the work was let in the month of January to be finished on the Ist May, it would have increased the cost Q. Taking the case of Mr. Kennedy, the superintendent, being obliged (o organize a iorce m a hurry to perform that work, do you think it could be don? with the same efficiency as under ordinary circumstances ?-A. It would not compare at all K« ^^' ."^ '■^''''"' "^"u"'^ ^T ^''''^^^' that?-A. He has got to take men whom he does not know anything about; he has to take them at what they represent themselves to be or what somebody else represents them to be. When he has them ho has got to do the best he can, because he has no time to change them m«n?" ?°7«"*^'?'' there would be a loss of 25 per cent in the efficiency of the ^^.?i!.";; • \ *•"""«* '"«'^«" ^g»';« that way. There is too much guess work There would bo a loss besides. He could not get the same work out of a gan'«» the waste will be. It depends in the fireplace on the 1 ^1^^''''':.*''? *°. '"^ ^*'"t are using, where you are coinir to hnv ir t ? Ti . ''"pensions of the timber you wanted S dozen dftferont if^e I Sd p ckT^^ ?' timbered practically be no waste ^ °"* ''^ ^ pleaeod and there would .ho ^elVd&.s oTttwo"!; Sir'tr"""''!i f ".■"'-''-^- ^ > "»i the r,a„ haaling ,hi. .imhe, wo'ld Jlect i! ' ""''' "^ """ '"' "o'""'"". f» «He|dY„n„rher„r;;2^L.7e4Sj^U%t±tT ""^ -» ?«"-'• lengths we require. ^ "^ -^^ ^^« "'^ays buy the timber of the A. TVTirZrSZl^^^^^^^^^^^ every source V- you have at^reat many dT^ll' hen /o r tirr/ralf-^l^i^''^"" '•^^""•«- '' or two dimensions your loss increases ' ^ •''^" ^'^'^^ 0"'y ono inches. ^ t-'iowork i^ by li, he would buy timber of 14 or 15 d.p,?d,Yr;L?,!:yonheVrrh" " ""■ "'*""' p'™- ■•■ "■» °-h.„gi„gi._A. u n»t. ^i o"f/„"i^r,r?srbr,:'sr "» "■•" ""« ""■«»«•' -'-a. no, i d,d Apr;?- ?h:rh'r'ld::r.'Sp1„«£^^^„ft'''>'^^^^^^^^^^^^ '- .h. .o„.h „f il. It wa, g„i„g on Sur works ' ^ ' "°"'"' '" "«» Mmwhing about i.«t'i;im»a„":"';trwrwe,.e''UE^r.rfc"''' ^r™^^- '-*■ ■ t"- know him intimately. working on the Cornwall canal, bnt I do not woulJb^ct'itrcteT:: asWfow ZtnTtot'^'"' ''' ^T ^'^'"'^ '* -"'" ^^ - did not think much about it "" ^® "?*" ^" **>« ^^^ of May ?-A. I niently work ?-A. Twenty or thirty ^enicks, how many men could conve- l Krch\rm"tet /rnru?r^;r ^'^ "-« --^« movearound. worl< a man in lo.s than 3 feej by 6 or To! 21 I "'o^«/»'«""d?-A. You cannot them very close. When vou c7me to Lk «^ 1. ^ '''* ^''**- ^^'" >'»» ^'i" have that. You cannot work th'em thaTcIose becalm 't^" '^''T ^'^ ">«" «'> ^'««« "« tubs between them. ' ''''''"""® ^''®'"® ^o"'d be no room to put the Q. That calculation would give room for 4 «tone purchased, and what is the laying worth at that time of yt, ?li Cf t the question you want me to answer ? -^ • "^°" '^ Q- I bavegiven the cost of stone-cuttine now vou Btftt«'79r.«nta a t that with the stone supplied on the g.ound thrmerwo.-k n3 h! .ifr/- ^'"^ "''^ that they are working day's work fo? the governmeJt-^ wofw L«t •^«y','^"«'r"'« three to four times wlat ^ would cost .7 t^^y";:™/ woTk n^ by rh'S " "" Q. We have got that down 45 to 70 cents a square foot Now what is th«nrin« of laying per yard ?-A Under the same circums?ances. the monT^owin. ' he; tere Zl} Ji by the day, oi'dmary mason work costs us i„ the neighbourhood of «T^5 when t-£e men are working for a contractor. You aiv, tryfng now^o makV a P t( t] •w tc t\ 225 < fi rsn^T^tert \ttru,i?,? Jl; ^^T- ^^ ^37.50 a yard. Nov., you let sometime about the end of Dec/ler or t°hVw «"Pr't*«" ^^^^ the work'ias do the work in«ide a limi ed t me of 8V?Sfl a t h "^ '^''"''"i:/' ^'^'^ ^ P^'"^'*^ to I would not take any risT« I wSd nut'sJch h^L """"Tf^ ^1^^^' "^ '^ ^^ntraCtor, and put the prices up so high that lonnS^JH T '^ **"** ^ ''^"'^ S'' anywhere mechanics I wanted.*^ It is not a fiJro o?th«T i™ ^5« «°»»try with every class of that would secure me aga nst any .fsks and oh^^^^^^^^^^^ "* ''"' '* '« * «^"« the cost of the work by any means I sav f h„f > • ''^'p"' ^ 't "°* ^^^ ^'^^^ «37.50 is tely on the safe side. KLTis nocoLSon'h ^J ^S'U'e that will put me absolu- at and the price of «37 50 "<> comparison between the price you are arriving value, and four times for laying. '"*''"'^'^'"®"'^ '^-^- ihreo or four would be a fair Q. D'% you add the cost of the stonn ? a v„= m t penalty, I do „ot w.ean that is the cost a^ IlT vl ^''^" ^ '^7 ^^^'^^^ ""''««' ^^e ing that under the circumSances I won^H ^i . ^"^^ 'n««t >;e member that I .msay- to go outside and brinTi^faru^aLTv^lrid'e^strlUr' ' '^"" '" "^"'^ ^''-^^'^ "'« J5y il/r. Atwater : name^d a^s^filuTeThr tLtt y^ L^^^^^^^ that the chances would all be on mv siZ wJT \ Tu'^ """"^ "'^'''^ '^fi'?"™ bridge fo.- theC.P.R. The penSyTas 8l6oo^O th«t ?h''^ ''T «° /J^^ Machine time. We had our figures madeZtZu.^y *** ^'^ ""?'"'" ^""''^ ^^ ^O"^ on people in connection ^hhthT bridge and'USThL ' Wn'l 7T '^ ^"""^ ""' '"^^ ^T„^„-/,"™^-f---obstruct'ion^^'diKtt^^^^^^^^ there was .ome unforeseen obst.SnTHiffll/^^; '^^^"''^ ^^^^^ *>« ««««fied, if that case I supplied thr^ont ^nTlTtSm ^o" tS 4tl"" The ' '^'^^,'^''« \°' 'f- . man>.t will unde.Ue to makTth« hrmr ^. J!rj^^'l= >• ^^^ want is a ma7 h7t w H undSake to makTth K '.^''•■^- .^"^^^^ ^^'^ = ^«- ^J'^* w^ of 8100,000. I said : UnShteMSo^ri pS? m/^-le^ToS.S: ' ^^"'^'^^ % ilfr. Douglas : 5y Jfr. Emard ; to coTOr overtime, and the SiUtor Loe, lo ^'1 "' ,f f ".''^'''°"«' "« "< Pri«e« the work goes on the contraolor is reo^MtJd .rfer^th . •"l'.''"1 •?" '»'"'»'■■ As 3'?hrira«vi^s:£i;i£l^rr^i~ jo^tenish lahon, for «igM Vork, "f IS *S^roiiSt''thrth."'it:"pS',:3 15 226 *ir.r,3' ^^ '* '"• T^ «Pe<=]fied that it iB for day work, would not the mere fact of men- fZ i l„r"' f P?"' ^"^ rr'r"^i°'^'r° ^'^'^^ »* •« ^l^* *«'«"««" of the party to n^nm5J '^•^'^'"■^^"f^u^^"' ^ ^'" t«" ^^o" what I do myself and you can make your own inference Whoro we huvo men working regularly at nicht Zlt Zl r^K J'"v. •'"^"otly the same as for the day. We have tot a greaf many on night work, but where we have men working night work they get paid oxactlv the IZVoZVyZtL '" "^^ "''^'' ^''^^ '^' "^"« ^•^^^ worL^ontrnuaifyatnUt kiud!^' '^^''^ occupation do you give them?-A. Watchmen, and things of that H„«r2" ^f^r''" t'^^'^i '" ^u"'' examination in chief that night men ought to be paid ? ifnH r • l"""^ ^^V *^''^ '''?' " ^'^^^'^ '° *'^« ««"«>. or a"y case came up wVen fw« i'' ""^''^ %F''^u ."*" cont nuously, suppose they were working all day and there was some hing that required night work, I would work them all night and then they would get . . 1 double lime. If a man worked from 7 o'clock to 6 at night, and then worked until midnight, we pay him a time and a-half, and then if he kept on working until to-morrow morning wo pay him double time. ™«ni . / '^?. 18 pressing, and you have no special gangs for night work r"ht /°A "?T 'f P'S '''■^^''^ '? P"-^ ™^':? ^«g«« f«^ tl^o^^ ^ho were working at night ?-A. Under the circumstance., while the work had to be done that way on fahomYwnn'lL ^K "T"". ^"^ r^ T'^ ^"^ '^' certainly. In tendering for {hat labour! would not have tendered at the same price for men working nilht work us for men working day work. ""xn..ug ui^ui worK Q. You remember the severe cold we had last winter?— A Yes Q. Do you think a labourer can stand being in water fo"r four or five hours wuhout coming out to warm himself ?— A. No. Q. How long could he remain working in water with a pair of rubber boots? i;im;e^."""P '^ •'""''' '* '^' °"*''^'' '^'^ ^' ^^"'^ *>^^° to^oLnd /e^Hnd warm annf?" '"^^cn if a man has to go and rest and warm himself, it is proper to have hur^ of';he"worT "' ' '^" """'^ *' pressing ?-A. That cfepe'ids on tJe t.«..h?n«^h! IT'? '^ "*" I •" • "^^^ •'' ^^""^ * ''"'« '*'•&«'' "»™ber of men than would ^twT A ^Tf«*\'^^''' '", '' =7*'i 'P\°«' '° «'-'^«'^ that they might relieve e"ch other ?_A. If you had work to do that absolutely required a gang of men to work in a particular place and keep that work going on continuously ca^minlvvou would have to have different gangs of men.^ A certain gang would wo?k in {he water for an hour or two then they would come out and another gang go in Q. Coining back to the question of the stone, w uld it not increafe the "cost to be obliged to take stone from the place where it was cut to the placeTconstruction piece by piece for want of yard room ; it would be taken, I unlerstand aronSe of a railway track ?-A I do not see the drift of your questiJn You mekn wfen the stone IS piled up in the yard after being cut ? • ^uu mean wnen tne Q. Yes take it piece by piece ?— A. That is the only way you wou'd take it You only take it as you are using it. ^ ^ ^ ^^^ "• ATn Q^Would it not be cheaper to have ,1 yard to pile it in near the works ?-A No. We would not pile it within reach of the building derrick, certainly By Mr.Atwater: f ^^^^,-J'''^^^''^^^^^^^^^^Y'''^^houtmen working when they knew they were working on government work costing three or four times as much ; why i7 that ? — A. If it 18 known, they won't work. ^ Q. Is that your exjierience always ?— A. That is my experience My exneri- ofmSi:^:^"'SSs^^^^:f-^J?^:^^ ^. I«peak . 227 viBio?yorcS\'v:"'^"'"P''"^'''"^^^ In spite of all the «uper. maaoVrthS7ric7ot«S:raS ^ ^"''^'"^ «^ '^- not figure on less than 20 to 30 pfr cent orofifc to h?S if Tu'' « ^^n'^actor would a profit of not loss than 20 per c?nt undii ant n^ \ ^/' ^^'' ^'^^'^^ ^^«"'d allow would be my own profit ^ under any circumstances-at least 20 per cent profi?- *'"'' "' '''' ^"*^^ ^«*^««'^ «25 and 837.50 ?-A. Yes, it might possibly be all work^ wS3"3;rrs?mirt:?h';rrhSrma/o"°' 'i: >^?-,-P-ience in this sort of doing it as they did, and at the ea on of the" 'L'^ •"''^ ?•"? ^'^^^ ^'^^ government couldnotmakoanestimate ofcouTe lLv« ^ * '" '^^'''^ '' ^«« done?-A. I to four times what it would 'be Sally worS^'T/^",?' ^ ^^\' «S«'-« ^'-^^ three It might have cost three or fourt mes wZ -fJ uT'"'"'"^ ""^«'" *'^o«« conditions. Q. Then it TV ■ ^ht fairly have eoKttr« T ''^ ^""^^ ^""'^ *^« contractor. Well, under the c. ^ums anJes here w th thfJ"'"""'"'' '''^^ '"'^«h per yard ?-A. take and figure out the a" swerl hrve^ ven nM ""J- ^^'^^hing delivered, just answer. answer i nave given into cubic feet, and you have the Q. You calculated on 20 feet of water ?— A Yes would actually cost that much I t&were n^Uf '' ""' to say that the w.-rk the penalty would all be profit to the co't7actor. """ *"^'^"^« ^^ '^^' '^•"^'. ■ffy ilfr. McLeod : M^~lyS::;li:'^l:,^^^^^^^^ a penalty of ,2,500 a :fTe ZT " *^^^ -^-* P- in ihTc^tr t ; Vo7d Xt ^p^nlynj f.^^ getw1;rk'!'^^h"ft';'.';rbl'altTeX^ - «-"d« --ous to tract, the bigger the penaTt7o3to~bt' Wh«n"°' ^"'''- ^^' .™"''« ^^'^ ««"- day on a contractor, that fact is ifublishpH thll k ^'^",f"' ^ P^"*'^^ ^^ «2,500 a tempt all the trades througho, t tbe Snt'v^f '"f «^^V^' T^^Y'^ ^"^ '^ "^-'^ht pay more wages. They would sav It is iLf I , • '''® *."? ""'''® *•>« contractor can get out of him befofe we absoTb thai pStr"'''"" '' '^'^" '""^'^ -«g«« ^« not tSinlTo'i; an! ^'''^ '* "^'^'^ ^'^ * "'«« ^^^^ '^ impose that penalty ?-A. I do And further deponent saith not. Commission adjourned till Monday next. S. A. Abboit, Stenographer. 16J ■-',:■ I W'/f fpi' 228 Lachine Canal Inquiry, Yes The commission met at 10 o'clock. Present : Messrs. McLeod, Douglas, and Vanier. H. J. Beemeb, being duly sworn, deposed as follows :— By Mr. Douglas : Q. you are a contractor of long standing and experience, Montreal, 24th July, 1893. are you not? — A. I don't know that there were Yes. Q. Both in the United States and Canada?— A. Yes Yes^^^nTrder^aWe.'^''"^ * considerable amount of public work, have you not?-A. Q. And havo had numerous contracts with the government ?— A Yes y. You have built a great number of yards of bridge masonry ?— A Yes a very large number of yards. go ii-a»uuiy r a. les, a Q. Were you a tenderer for the Wellington street bridge and renewal of the masonry on the old lock no. 1 ?_A. We tendered for the stone on he Welling on bndge and the old lock; not for doing the masonry. " ' " ' ■ - «"'"S»on any tenders asked for doing the masonry. Q. You tendered for supplying the stone ?— A 0. Wore you prepared lo deliver that alone for thoie prices to look no. t ?— Q. Were you prepared also to furnish that stone cut if you had been asked to work for itck n'o'f ? ^'" ^^^ " ''^^ '"'''''- ''''' ^'^ P"P"«d To ^TZot It Mr! DoSoi^-We tilUnHuf ** ^"P"'*^"^^ ''''' ^«" '^'^^^ - '^« -«• nf .^'l^r^ quarries at Terrebonne, and I take contracts for delivering stone of any kmd or dimension, cut to any classification, cut to order; and I would have been prepared to uudeitake it with sufficient time. The tth Decembei-ves I would have been prepared to take it at that time. -t^cemoei yes, i i^ b^" ^.r'*^ ^'^" ^^''^ ^^^^ prepared to deliver that stone on the 11th March and to keep the masons going without any stoppage, for the supply of stone ?-A I would liave been prepared to tender, yes. As* 1 understand thf question, you want to know If I would have been prepared to quarry, cut and deliver on the sUe?or the work commenced on the 11th March, and keep that work progressinl to be finished m the time specified-yes. I would have beef prepared to do fhat^ «,.„!?• Z' t '■^S"'"*^ ^"^ '?°^ ^°- 1 "^<'°®' *^«t is ordinary lock ashlar; for what would you have been prepared to furnish that stone on the jo^b per cubic ya d Zt ? iTif- ^!.^°"''^ ^«y«,been simply adding the price of cutting to that and to have fZfli! I^^nf'^''^' ""^'l^ ^^"^'^ ^r ^««° somewhat mJre, fo. the procuring ot cutters, &o. Of course we have not a ar/^e nnmhA,. of pnttira in tH«<^ r^Lt e li.^ country I should say not less than 811 to «I2Tya;:;i, tkit fspVak n^^^ '^! have had no time to think over this thing, but 1 s'houid say that would coveHt^' « « E I C ll t: y O! at a m 229 Yes, a 4 • By Mr. McLeod : yard that is, taking not o^nly tJo Sfh J. 1,-k bte'vervthi""' *«««^'>«'-«»y, ^ a Q. You moan the ashlar for the ht\Zl ? J ^f y/hing e se. me oriages i-— A, No; I am talking on lock no. 1. By Mr. Douglas : «11 or %\i would be to include 7h a ^^«i. ^"^ ^-lie pnce for stone. My idea of bridge and lock no. 1 ^ '•"* ^''^'^ «*«"« ^hut is asked for on the Wellington I do fugifest"?SMt"i7noffalrTnd U h* n'ot^'J.V^ '^'''^''^''. ""l'^' «0'"'ni«-on, Inu whatwould have been done underave.Vditfe.entl/i.r-'" J'^'-'^'^'^ti"" ^o inquire into really existed on the canal. Mr Beemer ^s n "«t ,?''*"T*""«"« '"'«'» t^"* ^hich stone as cut ; he was asked to tendor Sr tK \ ^^^f^ ^' '^^"der for the supply of this what does the commission deJ^tSe at?'' Vfh''" ''' V«"gh conditfo';?^ Now whether the government have bee^ fuillv ^i,} ^" '"''.""■>' intended to find out of giving the stone out by contract S 4?t^„?^fT'" °'" '"Prudent measures, and t appears that the only object S his tm Son wl/'t'^''''^" ^"* ^^ ^''^y'" '«l'«»'-? they actually happened. The eovernmT,^ Z ? ^"^ •"'l""'« '"*« t'^® faot« as whether they shoild give out cfntract^h^ f T "°^ ^^"i"""® ^'^ '^^ instructed as to What you want to inquire is L to Sacfuairvh?'" ^"^ '^' T'"'^ ^^^ ^^y'' '"bour any waste or fraud, which would iusf?fvfh«^ happened, whether there has been been taken in .efer'ence to tLse wffs ^I So not n'nn''^'?'"^. T^^''^^ ^^>'«h have of th,8 commission to inquire into auctions of ilm^-n-'f'*!-'^ '^''^ '' '« ^*>« f»n«'ion questions, so as to find out whether^Us better tnW^'^Jf"'"- °,'* .'"«'« theoretical another. I submit that the questions nut to ?h«*t> ^^^ "^"l'^ '" *'"« ^".V «r in matters pertinent to the ciicJmstances^as thev ^t ^;*"«««. «"gbt to be confined to theoretical or suspicious c.rcumsSnces diff«rfnf f ^''^k'"""^'** "* '^^ ««"«'. ««d no ^^vidence. "^ ""msiances, different from those, ought to be allowed in costS'-cu^tin'i^^sl^^^^ we can in reference to the way they h'avegWen'ou[S.aS^^ finally awarded by the government lJ,t tw k^ fu''.^*"*'"^'^ ^^^ contracts were hands, they askedf whoS they pfeased to t«nZ ^^ ?^ ''"* ""^ *«"*^«'-« i° their own they went in that direction.^ ^ ^ **''"*^' ' ^""^ ^® ^a"* *« And out how far By Mr. Douglas: wanttSj:L?aff wouirLle'd'^r'"'? .r^^™'"« '^^^^ "«• 1?-A. If you say «14 or «15 on a quanS; 'to bldeS on'^th?"' T '"'' '°?,^ "«• ^' ^ ^'^^"'d not a very clear idep of the class of s^onrJeaSLnf^'^/L'' .""f*' ■ ^^"^ J^«"' I have cutting it-I do not know whether it rnn! in ^ i^ ^""^ *•""* '°^'^- Measuring and have a predominance of on^kind of stZ T lo^' ""T'^' °f "''*' '*'• whether you ordmary courses. I cannot toS whe her thL.?- ^""^•^^'^'"g «» as if it run in the that work. wnetnei there is a predominance of costly stone in you SoulVSo U mu?h ctea^t *^« ^''^^ -''-^ 'ocks ?-A. Well, if it runs in courses on thj w'J^.ks'j^^ritSd^'if foTit ^'" ^"* '''^ "°- ' «^-« ^- -<^ deliver it «ny tender. ,10 would ^<::^:x^;.::rX^;;;^ iuc: '^^^^'^ ij 330 Q. Would you supply for the recess and boucharded work at the same price as lock masonry?— A. No, I should ask an increased price for that. Q. What would bo the increased price?— A. Say about (14 a yard. It is just a matter of the difference in cutting. For the rock faced, I said $10. Q. You have built a large number of bridge piers, have you not.— A. Yes. Q. You built the stone work of the Canadian Pacific railway bridge at Ottawa. — A. Yes. Q. Did it require expensive coflFordamming?— A. The specifications, the demands of the engineers, all depend on the cost. Some ask for a procedure which is not the most economical. At Ottawa they demanded the unwatering to be done by coffer- damming Q. Was the cofferdam included in the price of masonry ? — A. Yes. Q. At what rate did you build those bridge piers. I moan your contract price?— A. I had $11 a yard for it. ^ i Q. That was four faces ?— A. That was the ordinary pier, eight feet wide on top, square cornered and rocked faced. Q. The same for the abutments ?— A. The same thing right through. Of course the abutments were mostly on dry land, very little in water. This price included the cofferdam ming. Q. You built the aqueduct over the Welland river, did you not?— A. Yes. Q. That is high classed masonry?— A. That is the finest piece of masonry on this continent. Q. What did you have per yard for that ?— A. A very low figure. $14. all cut work. o » . Q. Did you build any of that in the winter ?— A. Mind you, there are no profits m that class of work. By Mr. Emard: Q. Was there a loss ?— A. I never followed it out to find where the exact loss occurred, but I presume there was a profit on the other parts of the work. I would not do it again for less than $21 or $22 a yard. But mind you, the unwatering was paid for besides. That was over and above. It cost us $50 to cut some of our Btone. By Mr. Douglas : Q. What difference would you consider there is in the value between that aque- duct musonry and the ordinary bridge masonry that you build ? Was it double ?— A. Yes it is worth double. Q. Did you build any bridges at Quebec ?— A. Yes, the St. Charles Eiver bridge. Q. What did it consist of ?— A. That consists of three piers, three or four piers and one centre pier for the swing bridge, a round centre pier, and rocked faced masonry. Q. What was your contract price for that ?— A. It was to be paid at the rate of $14 a yard. Q. What is the difference in cost between a round faced pier and a square one ? — A. Just the difference in cutting the stone to a curvature. Q. Was it more expensive ?— A. Yes, I think so. I think you get rid of arasees and chisel drafts on the stone. Q. Did that price include cofferdamming and unwatering ? — A. There was an allowance for cofferdamming. Q. What was your allowance ? — A. I forget that. Q. Have you built anv other bridge work of a similar class to the Wellington I^Jjoet bridges ?— A. I built the ordinary bridge work of the Metabechouan, the Au uSuiS Aviver, add othet's. Q. For these bridges that you have built in the winter, what was the average prices?- A. I think the allowance for the Metabechouan and other bridges were * • * * 'm * 4 We put our pioi-B through tho ice ^ ""'^ "'"'*'* considerable in tht.t way. was taken out of the caL" tBoor^t' poSe ""''^' ""''■ '' ""'' «"- '»>« water y. J^low many yards of maBonry did you build?— A i th- > u Ther?/rrK^^;-lt^7>,^fr^^^^^ couple of old scab de'l-riLTttfrnTh^e^k^^^^^^^ "*^' '^ --"' J-^ 'aXo - q: Lere:re.S^iror;n°r'^^^ -^'-• or any Iohh expensive "'''"' ^~^- ^ ^ould not .ay that it was no more expennive Q. What was your contract price for thuf ? a \f a the value of the masonry alone YoS .re ,.nt !„/• **'"'^ ^'"J' "'^ "''^ "o^ placing nocted with carrying onVgreat piece i fwS Yo.f J '^ '*?* ^^P^^-'HurL con^ class of masonry as compared with anotheT ""P'^ ^"'^'"^ ^''O"* one wastTnd;rin7fbV^th:woTh^eir:iVrill'';^M'^ *^ '^^'^^^ «" ^hat bridge I the Barrack ttrect wo^ which was a " '- '- ^•'' ''"'•'''' """' P"''' ^ ^'"^^«'- tended that on this piece of work ^ ^'^ P"'" "^ "'"''^i ""'I I «imply ex. Q. Wlmtpricp was it?— A. «9.80 value^^fTh^rr^teTaV^^^^^^^^^^^ on the excavation and everythingof tlSat kfnd^ ''"^ ^"°- ^^ •'^""^ ^ '<>«' wentYthLredX%t^reyll^^^^^ street works ?-A. No, simply walke/alongquicklyire ?hod^.rTcl%"Xrr?^ 'k '^'^' ^'^^ "butmenti ; anS f been there since, I did not want to go nea? it ^"^^ "' '^'"^- ^ ^"""^ ''^''^^ whic?;thTl r;an:.td"tT?ir fr -^, ■<;- ^^ ^^^ ™-ner in ac,ua.„tance with the -perintendent^M^r^LX'a^^J^r ^^^^^^^^^^ out t^ki^g^h^witr o7lTam.f?L\'T^^^^ cofferdamming with- p an exactly of unwatering the canal I thinfAh« i^'"'' ^ '^°"':^ ^^""^ *»ke" that nized a different plan of oDerHtinn ifn„ ^.*'^'°'^^ '^e government should have orea- were going to deSrirthe^^^mrof the^rTa?fr^K•^°'.?"' '^'"l^' ''"'^ ^he'e th^ey ^ezr^i^^ "^^^^--p'- Of opts.:x:?':s :n&rt;^o?krt^2l havett'tfr^^^^^^^^^^^ I should help to the work. ^ ™^ Rotterdam. The ica would have been a Yes, ?ut1h"e IZ ten by Ul' i'v'ernrnf "" f. ^'^"^ '^^'^^ ^ '«* ^^ -e ?-A. Biderthat thS a«perinten Jent V^raTrk Tb at ^^^^ I do not cot '"Tr^ou?arw:^uid^",f;;r"^'^"r^^^^^^ unwatering^?-A. Most Tsu'edr/ fo ^a'll 'pSeT'f'bSiff .r^^f^™"'"^ ^''*" ^^^^ bridge, a 20 foot rise and fall of tidi S tt' • ° '' 'i*'® ^*- Lawrence river cewasfourorfivefeetthLkanditwaHa'benlfif^o''^ completely helped me. The 18 simply my own experience Other men mav ul^! 'Z'^"'^ ?^ ■''. hindrance. That experiences. ^ ^'^°®^ ™''" ™»y bave different ideas and different withUd'g^s?'ir^lYi';rart7ten*':7 TT'^ ^,?.*^^^« '^^^^ ^-^ ^be crib-work work mystlf. When a con racto^lst a ZoUr'' ^'L\*'^"' "^"^^^ ^ ^«« «° 'b; procedure, and when he meetsVSiCf? he^^ ^^^o^ t^^ brM^e^p^S^.^n^^ he adopts tlio boHt mothodrt according? to his oxperience, or the experience of others. A good Binurt contractor in equal to the occa«ion when ho meet* the difficulty and can ovorcomo it in Home way or other, I am not able to nay wha'. procedure I would liHVo taken with regard to thoHe abutment piorH, not knowing how they uro hituutod. Now lot mo explain how you could have utilized the whole winter bv taking that niocoduro. You would have hud a good deal more time to do your work in, you would noi need to have commenced oporationu much earlier, and you could have u ilizod the whole winter. That in what I did on the St, Lawrence river and the Mctabechouan river — every thing of that kind wan done through the ice. After my tirHl experience in the matter, I am very glad now to take advantage of the ice to pul in foundaiouB, Q. As the fiict actually occurred, at what price would you have been prepared to take the ice out per cubic yanl ? — A. I never handled ice. Q. Have you ever taken down old crib-work ? — A. Yes. Q. This crib-work was frozen, what would you consider a fair price per yard to have taken it out?— A. It is certainly worth a great deal more when frozen. It would be just about the difference in the cost of taking out frozen earth compared with the cost of the crib-work also frozen. Q. At what price would you have taken out unfrozen crib-work per yard ? — A. The way that crib-work is built I should say from JJl to $...50 a yard. It depends also upon whether there in any value in the crib-work, whether the stone could be utilized for backing. Q. When it has to be pried off with crowbars and taken out with derricks ?— A. I should say that cril>-work taken out frozen would be worth — well, 1 am notable to got down to tine \ ices, so I will say from $2 to 83 a yard. Q. Then taking down the frozen masonry? — A. I do not see very much dif- ference in that. If it is good masonry, being frozen might not make any difference in it. The cement is supposed to be as hard as fiost. I don't see any difference in that. Q. What price would you put on for just tearing it down?— A. I suppose $3 a yard would cover it. Q. Now, the earth excavation, what would you consider that worth at that time ? Of course it was frozen part of the way on top ?— A . Where would that fiave to be drawn ? Q. Three-quarters of a mile. — A. It is very expensive when you como to deal with carts and carters in the city. I should say that would be worth at least from 81 to 81.25 a yard. I know what it costs for the work up at these little bridges, itcostb about 80 and 90 cents a yard. But ♦.hat is not nearly so long a haul. Moreover, it could be done much more reasonably than a large work like that. It was going on in the day time and this had to be done in the night and they had to rush things through to get their work done on time. Q. Now, what do you consider the value of that masonry laid between the 11th March and the 7th April ? — A. Do you mean for me to put a value? I could not pnt a value on that masonry without knowing the way in which it was laid. Q. What would you have conti acted to do ii tor ? — A. Say about 825 a yard. I perfectly agree with Mr. Schreiber's idea of it; and, mind you, when a man goes into these things he don't always come out on top of the heap. Sometimes be loses money. I am not simply speaking of the tenders I have made, and of the experience I have had on the work I have done in the past. Q. I am only talking of 'ontractois prices. If you get contractors' prices, cei-- tainly you ought to get the tost of the work ?—A. That >. ould be on the basis of $25 to the cubic yard. The timber would be at a figure so much per cubic loot or 80 much a lineal foot, that is, for coflerdamming, &c., while the unwatering would be calculated either on a bulk sum or so much per cubic foot for the timber, and so much for ii on and so much for labour. Your labour would be included in the price of timber. Q. Twenty-five dollars a yard does not include the unwatering ? — A. Probably ; I am speaking with no knowledge of how that thing was carried on. I have not \ t 233 $3 a ' '="" *'■»'« 20 to 30 ThpS-iy^n"*'"^^'""?''"' '';i\6C?-A. This was under exceptional circumstances The wall was very wide md the cars run right under the derricks. Q. That would be at)0ut 50 working night and day ?-A You cannot do ouite as much at night : 1 would say 40 yards night and day. V. u .annot "e as ijuch work done in the night as in day time unless you have got picked men Umt v^Han thoroughly depend upon. Labour is difficult to control'at best ^ Q. In your employment of labour in the city of Montreal, wliai do vou consider i maTS' t^^ ^o^\'l>-or.iin,e " ?-A. I consider that term means^?Lt where ovTr f im« l^K ^^ ^l'^ l^-°" '' '''^^'^ t^ ''^'•'^ "" ^«" «^ *«'" '^•'^tra, that would be over-time If he works his ten hours lor a day as ai^reed up. n for a dav's work ' O ?)ovr o'; "^,^'t'""«' *'•"« t" that in the sLe cfay, we'^call that o^errme! Q. J)o you consider night work over-time ?— A No n\ghtshm7JrYe7!'^'^ ''"■^' ^""^"^^ ""'" "'«^' ""'^" "^^y-' * ^«y «^'ft and a A ^••/o'* ?'*'m."''^ labourers what difforence do you pay between a ni^ht and a t^n"^'^^~^' ^^^' "'• ^tP^"''^ «" '^^ difficulties of gett^nj youTmen A I said n' ^r^"" ?u """o*"^ P^'>' whatever is necessary to get those men. few wVwye':i?rn:Tutrii»ir^ Q. What 18 your custom ?— A. The custom is that you have cot to meet th« position just as you find it. If you find you can get plenty of men thTre L no trouble of putting them on at the same rate; but if^u'^haveVifflcuTty in ge^^^^^ 234 sSftSm.*'^'"'"" ^''" '^^"*' ^°" ^^^^ to make an arrangement with those men to .V, *^' P!l^°" know the state of the labonr market last winter? The mills were shut and tbere was plenty of labour available.-A. Idid not pay any KieaTa teSn to the state of the labour market, because I had nothing to dS heiu attention By Mr. McLeod : vnn 2;.,Sl"'''^ '^7-^^ "°i * ^^'^ P'"" *° take the water out of the canal and that r^ir i^''®P"'^"l*'°^r.^""""^-^- In considering this question we must re- member the extremely cold weather of last winter. Of course. I do not sunnose governments change tfieir plans very often ; but at that stage when I found Z ice clttJS^^rwffihfnr"'''*"^'^"^^' ^'^ ''-' of o1>erations ifl1adV:j ^i .?r.\u° ^^^ ^'^'"^ y^" ^°"^*^ ^^"^ P"t down cofferdams for the abutments wou d iavATt ?Erw";?r'^.f Jt '°v^ ^ ^^^'^^ ^^^ ^«^« P»* •« coffm-dams thTt waltasTunSKL"^'*" '"''-^- ''°"" '"^^^"^^ '« ^'"P'^^ ^^^^-^'^ retaining «. M^" "^u^ would you have bonded the new masonry with the old masonrv ? How or lrJ!-^M'-P"*?T''* ?f «"''^'"^-^- There would not have bee" any difficur all S ?eStr;Zf tr/f m'?1' '^' T^^'* '" ^^« «P""S- Y«" "««d ndl have bS ^infl^Vf- * ,f^'.y*''' ^'^^^^ ^''''® P"t ^° yo"'^ piers and abutments and have had ?he sn- n?tnl '*'^° 'V^'.f"^ ^'^'^Z^" ^'^"'^ '^^^^ '«t out the water sufficiently in was t^kS'outVVnwwriH''^'^V*'''°^^''*°,""«"*°^^he wall before the water Zr cofferdam? A tT J^'^^T T"lS«d to get the stone oat of the site of your conerdam f—A. I do not understand what you mean y. There was a wall built on both sides of the canal; how would vou a-af the nrhL?r %^f^ '^-^-- 1"", ^''"•'i '^^^^ t« break those srorresconSfng the old timbers by pile-driving right into the bank. No trouble in that. ^ , y. Kight down to the bottom of the canal ?— A. You would form a connection in that way so as to make the cofferdam. connection «. . QvYf"?^Y*^">d havetoput the crib wharfing down a considerable depth eieht or ten feet below the bottom of the canal-the crib wharfing above the Xllin-fon bridge and below the Grand Trunk bridge?-A. What lengfh was the crfb? ^ Hr. Kennedy.-] 53J feet by by 50 feet wide.-A. That would have made it more serious; the cofferdam would have to be made extra lerth to Ku^ that 1 would have had to cofferdam that so as to excavate. Tha"might have madet too expensive unless the damage to the millers was so great as to^'usUfy it I do no recommend that plan on account of its cheapness, bSt to avoid the difficulty of connect with your bank. It would be a one sided cofferdam ^ -^^ " '" "°'" ""'^ f^ fu ■ i.^? speaking of the centre pier. In speaking of the price for excavation flii- ^" J^^^~-^' ,9^ course the refilling— I presume there would be no frost in the Jn youT haul! ""'"" ^' '^ '^^"'■"'^^^ '" '''' P^^° «f '^^'- It would depend altogether Q. That would have to be added to the price of excavation ?— A. Yes y. What would the refilling be worth ? Not carting it all away but leavinir enough at hand to refill ?-A. Did they leave any at hand! ^' ^ (4. No, but you would naturally leave it, if you could, somewhere near. % * 235 SV ftlZ Whlf'"^ "?' P" ^''■■'' •"■»"*«.•.,„ „o frost? sume 75 cents to $1 per yard I do not ilfp mnVh Tr! *^ peryard ?— A. I pre- material in this cV because it is mo, « or ^^ ^^^^^^^^ questions about iiauling ™o„?h, t toZ Taro'lSjrdr.'r'.'''''- ?"«!■"-*. nat l, an right loaf f„ ever,;^;.lblSoccaS' Unlet voS Z JS'S " "" "r'"- ''1^ carters and sees that thev An a HnTr'l™^ i . ^ ", °^ " ™^" ■«^''" I'ents his iB Why I do not I?ke to pTt'val'ues Jn Z er'iaUo beS.l "T 'T°, '•^''"'^^- ^hat because I am only giving a DroblemaHo ^! !l I- '^f "'^^ »ny distance in the city, that I am not thorr^hfy vCedTn the S^^^^^^ "'^^°-^'*' ^'•^'^ '^^ ^^''^ f««t not be questioned on those points ^'' ''^ ^'^^'^ ''*"^'"«- ^ ^^"•d ^^ther hire ?11 o„5 m 'n"E;£ 5'ay Ta" ZSf thT *'^ '^^V^^ "«* "''^'^ -" '-^- ^e the month. ^ ^' ^®°^'*' *^'"«' ^'^cept foremen, whom we hire by that thoy have iot a oreMv .nff l^h li. .u '""' M°"' ■"«" ""«"' »"ge' 'ho Mea a prevalent idea^ml-S^^^^^^^^ the g^oVerarb^^he^dV" and tLTSo'tTew/T T T'''"'''' P"* «" ^^"^ '-- I do not think that wouKnn°v for £t „% "f they have a soft job?-A. No, whether I was doing the wStty?wo?ka^/hTw I ^^'^ ^•7*'^ ^.T *« '^"^^ not know it unless they were told it ' '^''' P""^' '^"'^ ^'^^^ ^""'^ piece^ofloSTd^nrfelTrv men'rV-^- ^'^P.P"^'"^ ^ ^™ ^'^'"^ * ^^^^^'n extra contract with Ae governmGnt Th«^ business, they are not supposed to know my tain piece of worif and cK; bv tLX"''' ^'T "' ^ ^'"'tten order to do a cer- men Ihey weiTdoing that by dat' work "^ 'but ?? Snls^'"/! 1? f- ""'^ ^«" '^^^ came known the work was Hnni fin, ' °® P'®^^ S^t hold of it, and it be- itjbutifTtisartterof/^^^^^^ i« no necessity of The men knowLg InvZf^^^^^^^^ P«^'^ ^\t^ ^*y«' ^«-««. t^ere were public tinders, the men kiel ?Lv^lt 'f'- ^''V'' *^'' «"««' ^^^^'^ the.-e that tL government w^uffLveratlYtherhor'"'"^ '"' *'" ^--~t. -^ tirel/at daV rolV^rnd'ShLrl^t^^^^^^^ '" f «"^« *^^* ^«^« ^'"P'^yed en- BtanlV work Tr the goveiielta^^d^^^^^^ T''''''^ /r," ^^^ tractors 'who con- not wU that the JoferanTo^d'' daari:1,;em ?LTthev"To 'tZ n 'fr ''" sions; they expect to \m dificha'-""d if tLv Hnn't i " w . -^ ^ .*^'^* ^" *" ««««- deal of dittireo'co « «, the ola.'s'oi'tiLt^ yfa 'haTet oh r«"' " '""'- » «'■""' * Of course a foreman can discharm any man?— 4 IL :h„ i,- ■, .u foremen have themselves of . day's worfrLTdkiencJ: 'Z Z^fgJ^Z 236 ^^^^ Tu "^" *'■^'^''?■'^'"« °" P"^''« works, it is just the same as with nieht work they never get stirred up, tte lightning never strike, them and thTresu t is attht"UT\V^^' ?»°»d"nn sort of astyle, unless they have' got a live man at the head of them to st.r them up; you can see that right We in the dtv with the city employees, the way they work and the way they move Thev think the corporation owes the r support to tLem, just as men think who a^o wffin] for Jm«^» TT"^'- .^«° \^'"r'k 1 am striking at the government in any wJy or doi,^ nnf I u^'.u^^-l ^":''' ^^^y ^"^« ^° ««"«*der whether it is done by da^s work^ ' O f'Jo^ vl'M' ^Tl'^'^'^^y'^' government than if let out toVoSralrs Q. From your knowledge of conlracting.doyou think this would have been rtnn« more cheaply by u contractor ?-A. J think it could have been done more cheanlv by contract than ,t has been done under the plan that was adopted T think if the government were going to put Mr. Kennedy on as superintendent of a cana thev Sthrwrt" '^'™ the hiring of the men'^and made^im res^ons We for eve.y^ hplf TV*,' ' °"^.' '1',*?*'* ""^ '«"^'°g ^o^« a"d letting out everything over hTs head I think he should have full swing, full charge. If he was worfhv to h« superintendent he should have been allowed to 8uy:^I want this Tl want that and he would have found ways and means to hire those men in tl^ s,le wly that Mr St. Louis hired them. He should have had the whole charge of them a^d have been responsible for his men. Then there would have been no^ trouSe S course Tt might cost more money, but then it would have been the satisfactiol, ' ' y. Jiut a contractor having undertaken the work, taking evervthinjr into con ^deration, could he have carried it through ?-A. Oh yes no trouble^bout tha? There are lots ofcontractois who like to '7ake a job '^*- Q. Plenty of contractors in Canada ?-A. Yes, and lots of good contractors too. By Mr. Vanier: JnviS ^^'''' "'^f^ y^V" ,*^"'^®'' t° ^"™«'' the stone last winter ?-A. I think the invitation came from Mr. Kennedy. « > ^. x inmK me date.^" '^'^ '^''""' "^'"^ ^*'" "'"'* *^* tender ?-A. I cannot remember exactly at this Q. To whom did you address the tender ?— A. I am not positive but I think it was Q. Did you ever see Mr. Parent in the matter —A. When I saw mv tpnd«.. nff«.. th.r-^lu . yo" ™'"«mber the pr'ce you had for the masonry ?-A The only thine for tLf rrrf"* T^ m" ^*'^ **•> ^^'"'^ ^«"ld ^^ theabutments; I had «10 a yarf it an Vh«^.n w« h'^H**'*'"- ^"' '' r' ;" ** ^'^■^'•'^'^t position, it is not compiSe at all. There we had our cars right alongside our masonrV a laree amount nf masonry too, in one Imdy. We kept at it I through summed' we dr^ewTm stone m there and hoisted them right on to the works. ' ® Q. You spoke a few minutes ago about Mr. Kennedy havinff his own wav to Ho own^wavTl 'u r"'' ' ^"^ y°" ':'' ^""^ th«t he wa^ prevented from havLg ht own ^W?— A. If I were superintendent of a work and had to be responsible ffr it I would not be superintendent unless I hired my own men. If I had been ««t in the position Mr. Kennedy was, supposing that he was to hire hs own men I ?hou S have resigned and that is what Mr. Kennedy should have dore in mv oninion To fTr'^hthe men '' erT r '""f ^ ''' ""/''' «^ ''''^' '^'^-^^ o7e7co t "acto^r: By Mr, McLeod : he did' ^l "^nlt ?'''°''"rg« f ">' "^«n »!« P'ea«ed ?-A. Yes, but the more disoharginff he did, the more disruption there would l)e to the work. You don't want to be dis^ 237 pil^XulV^'l^.^^^^^^^^ {-^7- do the wo..: A great because he has worked for me a number o?Z".r«inH Il'"'"^u■"^^'" ^^'- K«nncdy that he ha« good judgment in i* gard to «eIeSg men. ''""'^ """^ ' ^ ^""° °°°«^°"«« By Mr. Atwater: Konn\\',:rrtJnfto1ay:brtPhr;l;'rn"'r.^^^^ «"Pr'"^ '^'^^ ^^' no, I am not mippcsing that ^ ™^" '^^"''^ *'« employed ?_A. Oh, Q. What do you refer to ? A T rof«r fn «k:^ ♦u . ... to use bi« own judgment. He knows Jhe lal^i^ Lr\ ." ""f "? '" ^""^"^ **'« "»«" ^as men and the class of men that he wanL He shouTrh.v^'V" i''"^-^' ^^T *« "^>^«i" I would rather select my men Another man !«„ « ! *"'' T"^' '" *•"»* »•««?««»• that is all right for the m^ who has tho^onf rnT ?"*''*"' ^ ^"'"'^^ ^''^ '''»'""»•- on Mr. St. Louis, but the L^who hat the Stt f """• T* T'^*"*'' ""^ v^i\^ct\on Mr. Kennedy ha^ got to select ^ose ln,1,u?if Tr S^Sr^l^w '"'"'• ^^ ^'^«"' men, he is not going to rofuse them on siiht nntll L /• lu ««"^« »^er a thousand trouble and there comes ,e damage rnrvinrho«! !^"" ^^Tl, J''^'"^ «""»«« *»>« they are able to do a day's work.^Whon 7ma^n 02^^? «"^fi»'^'"fe' »"* whether them and not hire them at all. I have "een men Tni' '^T""''''^^"^"' *>«««" '•«*"»«« they fetch 50 or 10 '"<<'"«y employers. n" w V' ^ '■" "«t?-A. I do not suppose he would like to ,Io it he ^l^li£'.n?d:^^"?rn^t''^^"' if hoai£:r;^'JeA.seaman from thestandp^oiniof ;eVtb'i.1y"°?i;rw1L\'V^^;t'sf1'' •*'" "P,!f'^"" ^^^^^^^^^-Xi^^^;^^ - P~o furnish Q. And when thev do furnish von wi*K ^kJ^ "g^i'i'ies. shall take them or not ?-A yT whl wl hi^^i^"^ y""'' discretion, you they don't turn out well, it is our'b^s Mr C T*''^"^;. ^^^" take them and wo,k,and for his own refutation hnhouldhfrhST"' ^eld responsible for that the engineer in charge Therevemh?nl J^.Th^*'* ^"[' ^""*''°' "^ *»>»» ^^rk under qSo you attrifuie the cost of h s ^rk to ?'« mZn^ «'«" 'VT"^'^^" was employed ?-A. Not specifically no ThaM« n„iJ^ *pm '^^'''^ '•»« '^^'O'"* Q. You have stated that you tLk^f vou h.H h ^ "°^''^ *''.^ ^*"«««- you would have done it throujh thoTce ?«!.« ^^«» "^"t'acting for this work, That is only my opinion. ^ ' ^ "'PP'^'^ ^^''^^ '« ^'^'y yo"'" opinion ?-A: Q. You are not prepared to swear I suddos« fh«f oPf..« ^ i the grounds, and the circumstances, ad the SoTlUron of th ■'^."' «^»™"'ation of else, you might not have changed you oSor?-! it!,**'-^ work, and everything nect my evidence with this work Thore'^wflK orVlf /•« ' "-P**'"*' ^^^ '"U'^' ^on- out of the canal. To give Mr Lnnedv a^oodThln ?"!l''^u " '^^'"^ the water rush he could have built cofferdams and n„f fh^f "''^ ^"t.*^'' *''** ^°'"'^ "^'t^out any le.s money, because the work rnewoEldno^^ '°«^«'-' ^ ^'>'"'? more time to do it in. When you cotTeto inorli«? ' •'' """^J* '"""^^ ^^^ ^^a^ing time for construction and thenTncrere yom aTon^rnf P''T or diminish it without very difficult and adds greatly io the co^t ^^ '''''^ ^ ^« '*«"«' ''^ '"«k«« it quanVo':KoTtfett';SCZtt'?rth^T ^"^'^ ^'^^^ — '**he by the chairman remains unanswered He slkT abouMhl' ''"' ^T ''? P"' *" ™« that^was to be removed above the Wenllll\TC''l^t.':^ ^^^^^ Q. Take communication of exhibit n q o«^ *„i • -^ amouutofcrib-work that was removed fVnm than' ! . u""!^ '""^ consideration the on .h, ....en. p,e., .„d .heSret! prir.';,x^„rr bXT^/;:^ 238 li whether you still think it would be more economical to have removed this bv a system ot coiferdamming than in the way in which it was done?— A So far as the centre pier and the crib-work on the left of the pk.n above the Wellington bridjre are concerned, I say that the masonry of this kind could have been donecheaper bv cotterdammmg. By taking that plan of operations you would not interrupt the work ot those men, and the extra cost i the work, while they were rushing it on would more than compensate the expen-e of the cofferdam. * XL ^'J^V^' ^^7^^S seen that plan, your last answer refers only to that portion of the cofterdamming and the crib-works in the centre. Now, about those side piers ? —A. 1 say, let the water out of the canal fifteen days or so, and take them out Q. Do you say it could be done ?— A. I think so. Q. Suppose those side piers were frozen?— A. At that time the frost is out You take It fifteen days before that and the frost was well bi-ofcen. There would not have been nearly so much frost in them then. For several days there were two or three teet of water in the bottom part of those cribs during very cold weather You remember a statement of Mr. Parent that the frost had entered in again and tormed new ice over the bottom of the canal, which had to be taken out. Now that ice went into the piers and made new ice in different places in those old cribs and was diftcult to take out, and would increase the expenditure to Mr. Kennedy more than if he had not had that spell of frost. After the ice was first taken out it froze the second time, and largely increased the cost of taking those cribs out; made two separate freezings. > ' '^ """ Q. You stated just now that the frost was out of those cribs at that time : how could the frost have been out at that season of the year, in the middle of the winter ? — A. In early spring the frost commences to go out early in May. Q. But this was between the 1st and 10th March ?— A. As I understand by that plan, those piers we are talking about were in the water. Q. And they had to be taken out while this work was going on, and they were mostly taken out in the middle of the winter?— A. I was taking those piers out by letting the water out in the spring before the canal is open. There is a certain aumber of days in which the water is let out before the opening ot the canal in the spring of the year. I would remove those cribs at that time, and let the water out alter the frost commences to go. Doubtless it would have been a great damage to the mill owners to stop their mills, but if that mode of procedure had been adopted Mr. Ken jedy would have hud a large part of the winter to work up this business ; he would not have had to put on such a large number of men, and to work night and day. The only difficulty he wou d have had would be to take out those lon.ritudinal piers, which I claim could have been taken out by a dredge. It would have been better if they had decided on a plan of that kind, when the excessive cost of this work could have been obviated., Against that would be cost of cofferdamming those sections where you had to put in your masonry. I do not look upon those longitudinal piers as being an expensive thing to get out in fifteen days. Q. Are you prepared to state in figures how much cheaper you thiiik your plan would have been than the plan that was adopted ?- A. No, I am not prepared I am not surprit-ed at the excessive cost of the work when you ask a man to do that work in a time and under the difficulties that have cropped up. I say those diffl- culties could have been obviated by a different procedure. r M ^- J^".A*y ^^^ difficulties might have been obviated if a different plan had been followed with regard to doing that work?— A. Yes, if the government had adopts ' a diftarent plan. When governments build works they do not leave their superin- tendents to make the plans; they adopt some plan at headquarters by which the work IS to be done. They look into those plans and decide. There are big enouch heads up there to do that. 6 " S" Q. Considering the way it was done, are you prepared to say that the cost was excessive?— A. 1 am not astonished at the cost of this work seeing the difficulties under which it is carried on, and the way in which it is carried on ^' , '^ ^o"" f^J'^^^'^ *<> ^y 'it'W W"c'' less it would have cost by adopting r«„h«m«9__A. lam not prepared to say that, I am not prepared to go into -4,. ^ - your scheme ?- t( tl 239 tr^.'p^'^.P'r ^''"' t« i^-^fie t\^o pfer ti«^^^^^^^^ builcf around the St. Charles bridge was 28 feet aoro«/„;^ • . .^ ^^ '"• ^Y centre pier on ?h '"'.5 °"'l '^^i'' ^»« feet etandt reTupon a"n;TunIc';'h'"'";f,'^"' l''"''^ ^^« «'-i^" then the only difficulty additional lo thSrwnSl,! T„ ^k"' ^'^''^"^'^ ^^o ice. Now foundation ; consequently you would havrhrMnK^*" ^'1" S^"'"^-? "^O"'" to that , Q. You would have had to makft nnff-!. . ^^ ^''''^,'' «off«'-dam (here. the centre pier ?-A. Yes^^trd'mere^toree^^iSVe'^h'™^"*^ '^^ ^^«" ^ ^- Q. ^ou cou d do all that withoni LTl'V. • .? V^" ^he shores, move the ice at that point""''^"'^' '^^ '•'«?-A. We would simply re- ♦K„ ^" '^^*^" y°" ^<*'^'d ha^e to remove the ioA in tu the same as you cut a hole in the ice and von h^ in ^® ''^"i'"® yo"»'8elf ?-A. Just an observation as to how I would dnthl^J^i '''I ^■""'' cofferdam there. I made p.eces. You will not succeed Jn doing so '' "°^ ^"" "'"" ^••^•"^' ^^ P^^k me to plan of op^ri^r^SSiffu^^^^^^ '?tCdtt.''T^- ' «-P|^ -^ t'^^^ 'f that economy. You are asking me here as an e™, ''f^" u"''"'^'* «"* «^ith thorough «»"^. -'■'■' y. I mean they would need to be relieved from' time to tim« ? a v thiat they would ha™ hfd gre^^.lt.kyVLZgZ^'Zu '*'" ''"' ' """^ .ha.U".a"i3:S\t*?;:!;r,:,b.^ff^^^^^^^ Q. Wk«P«.^en..|e?_A!?ru?d'„\'rgTver^r?eX"'''''°"' "" ""*■ care of my plant, a, Mr yo„"iy\'L"^'°K' E?';r"'?KP''>';« "^ •» "k" i« a good deal of loas. '"lowe, ana in spite of orerythmg I oan do, there £y Mr. McLeod ; m.te%^L^T:i Vsroft/arvCldt,"* '""^ material ?«A. Tools and vable in the sh'ape o1 lumber or aSJthiSJ of that kfnd*'"''' every thing that was remo- -A. Vt^unfess t1.:;^3";ritt^I:^^^ r^^^^ *-^^ -»'^ you ? that would make w,^d they woSli oaJry awafa„d thlt '"'^ T^^ '* ''^- ^°y"""«g It was. If they had time to chop it u^th^7Z?,M ^'^'^"''l?"' *"'™ whatquality mind about the cost as lon/as theVLnt 1^ ^O" Id carry a big stick. They don't People are the same everywfere in tKesVek T t! '^"T^' '^^^ ^"^ •» ^^^ing it this city on the wharf, and we were not E' J, ^^ "^^"^ considerable wor£ in we did it was not there long ^"^®" *** '®*^« ^^^^^ ™»«h around loose, if thing^;hI;e'!'S;%?u'mfan^^^^^^^^ «»>-'d have had control of allowed him to givi out the tenders ?-V Not It ^^f S.^Tn''!!? *• ^'^^ ?'«" *« ^^^^e in charge of the work. It ig the en^iW who Lt„- ?«°°«^y.if "ot theengineer thing o? that sort. Mr. Kennedy ISdhJ^hJ^oU ^^% specification and Ivery- men. &c he should have full chLge of theToJf tSt ?.f •''^ '^' ^""t' ""^^ ^>™dhis Q. What you mean more Dartioulirl^Ja ft f ^^ '^ responsible for. ^ Q. You d not mean purcCSli^ii'!f„?f P^l^-?^^^ Yes. operations to go by^nd that ^^ofl^U't^'^ZTl^^^^^^^ P'-«^ m 242 Q. Do you mean to say it was not a proper plan for the government to advertise for tenders for the material? — A. That is all right, but they should have inaugurated a plan, and then carried it out on that basis, and the superintendent should have had charge of the labour. If he made a requisition for this lumber, that would go through the office. The engineers, as I understand the carrying on of public works, have control of all these matters ; the superintendent is there to carry out the instructions of the government through their engineers. That is the way 1 have always con- ducted public works for the government. Q, You do not know whether this plan of conducting those operations was not carried out after a good deal of careful study of the situation ? — A. I do not know anything about that. Q. You have simply stated your own idea? — A. One thing I know is that Mr. Kennedy should have the hiring of his labour ? He should not be held responsible for the poorness of the labour furnished. If the labour was not good, he should not be held responsible. Q. I am not saying anything about Mr. Kennedy, but I understand you to say you think Mr. Kennedy should have had the employment of the labour? — A. Yes, of course he makes his requisition for everything he wants; I should suppose that would be the proper way. 1 do not know what was carried out. If he wanted lumber, he would make a requisition for a certain amount of lumber. Q. But you do not know how the plan of conducting the works was arrived at ? — A. No. 1 should say the proper way would be for the engineers to maiie out a Ftlan ot the coffer dam and crib-work, and make an estimate of all the quantities of umber required for that work, and that would be handed to Mr. Kennedy. Q. You do not know whether that was not done ? — A. I do not know whether that was done or not. By Mr. Archibald : Q. I suppose you know very little about the circumstances under which this work was done ? — A. Very little. Q. Now, were you aware that Mr. Parent had advised the very course of pro- cedure which you recommend, that is, by proceeding through the ice? — A. No, I was not aware of it. Q. Do you suppose that an expensive coffer dam would have nai-rowed the channel so much as to interfere with the passage of the water in the canal ? — A. I don't suppose they navigate the canal in winter, do they ? Q. Certainly not, but the water must go through just the same ? — A. That would not interfere with the passage of what water was in the canal. Q. I think you have some knowledge of Superintendent Kennedy, have you not?— A. Yes. Q. How long have you knowu him? — A. I think he worked for me going on something like two years, if not > lore, in the years 1883-84-85. Q. On what works was he engaged ? — A. On the Quebec and Lake St. John Bail way. Q. What would be your judgment of his capacity to undertake such a work as that of building the Wellington bridge ? — A. Well, I will tell you my opinion. I do not like to answer that question in that way. I have a very high opinion of Mr. Kennedy's ability and watchfulness and carefulness, as a man who won't allow, if possible, any slouching around him. He makes the men work, carries on his work with ability and pushes it. To take up a piece of work like that, I believe it re- quires a man to carry it through in the very best manner and in the very cheapest manner. The government should have had a man of known ability on that class of work, if the people do not espect the expenses to grow. Under these difflcalties many men with a great deal more experience would have carried it out, knowing his cautiousness and knowing his ability to handle men and push work. I V 343 tractor « concerned, undo/btedlj it d7e« ^ake L^metnT"' '" ^" "' '^' ''''" S«f ^-- - -"-« oT?H^t?rd5^^^^^^^^^^ -Her ^an pkraix7an^Lt;jr rrtt^ - the^crr raX a lave a certain effect on the men I wtt not hflf 1 ™'"- °^ "''""« '* <^°«« know when I first becan contracti^ff 8om« IAk *" '"^ *« '■«K«''d« th»t- I through was done by men XTeve'ZThvtt^"''''^ anccesBful ever carried There the man had to put up a laZ amount of IjT^Th 1.° ^^"^ ^'"^'^ «tate. to do, and 80 the company paid thf m^n Of conrM« ? '^^'''^ ^^ ""*' **>«" «"«ble tract; therewereabout40or80men Butth«t«L!: IT^^ * ^^''^^ large con- that it makes a difference. ^*"** '^^"^ *° '^^ t''^ general impi^ssion, tion I o^gal^e'a" laitfLToTirn'^a'nf '^ '^'" ' I"^° *° ^'^ Kennedy's poei- an exneri?nced contrfctirV-l Mucrereal'''Th™.r- '^T IV^''"''* ^' for^oK; that if the government expected that eve.T Doinf Sf ITn *' ^ '""'*" '^ ""^^ ^«™'^''k ^nd everything of that kincf theiVshoald h/vrhii ^^""''"'y ^^ to bo observed, large amount of labour and a St exien^^^ onTT ."''° ^''^^ ^'^^ «°""«1 <>f «^ not expect that a superintenderof a cZt-who rn-cK "l' ""^ ''^'■^.- They could ..ploying from year to^ei^remet Xtn^nd^e^J^tCa-nS^pK o^hls tf' JBi/ Mr. Emard : labou^r-, S?thT"sTecJ°al fontrSlt^ut'^ovTSrand T '"^V ^^"^J«^* **> ^^^-^ suppose that any labour done by Ur min af?e. th« P'"'f J?"".' ^*''' «^ertirae, I oalled overtime?— A. You mean wh«r«JhTr?-"'®.",^"*' '^«7» work, would be apricefor overtirat of corsranvJhfnl Z'^^'P'**'*'?^^^^ ^o'-i'? If you h*d th^t price Any overtime Zt wJafe lylZZ^T 7^'"^'' ^e reck^oned ^ price in the contract for overtime ^ ^"^ ^'^"'^'^ *»« reckoned at the .litio? A"l^;8\"ot%*nYwourcdott?H'''« ^^"-"-^^ --'^ b« done in ad- by other men ?_A. You mean that \( f ™„X h^ "*"I* ??" ^^"^ ^O'-^ed all day or on. you want to know tf Tiui mike any differe^ceTft"'^ ^X^^^ '*"'' '^"^^ ^^^^^ ^ould be put on especially for night work *^* *^^'^^*" *H»* °»an and one who tract ?-A. I think the governmen? 8t)u7d make Lm^^^^^^^ "T °^*''."?** '" "^«' ^o'^' Q. Would you not consider thaf iinH«r !k! • ® fP*'*''*^ provisions for it. prices ou^ht t^o cover all the nfght work V-H^^^^^^^^ 8houId ma^e some compensation fof "haroverti^it *'*''' '''^ government wo.;kn.Tn J^r^ l^femrncyo'f r£n^"fr I ^ ?K^^^ f^^ ^^^ ^^^ night work will cost more. pushing a work of that kind, 1 consider By Mr. Vanier : Q. You mentioned a few minutoa awn that ip»,«. i. j u -A. Excuse me ; I want to eJTpTain hTettl^rfi^tt^ bk" ^a'"? '^^ ^°''^— ^ are queationing me from the standpoint of a m^,f»i«i I' ^^« I understand, you binds himsetfto the government ?oTr^yh^T.t^=,^^^-^^^^^^^^ for labour. ' ^He work. and. .f requu-ed, at night. He has gol to-sVandS"e"t;farSTt i^r ffi 244 By Mr. Emard : Q. No, there ia nothing in the contract about labour being required for night work; it says that, for the overtime, the following prices shall rule ?— A. But they have required him 1o furnish labour nights, have they not ? Q. They did require it.— A. To ©iierate a gang of men. II S'' ?* ^o"'** ^ * special gang of men, because some of the men could not work all the time?— A. But working a certain number of hours at night by special meo don t come under the head of extra time. Q, It comes under the head of night work?— A. Yes. Q. But there being no proviso in the contract for night work, don't you think the provision for overtime would cover that, and would it not be the intention of the contractor that the provision for overtime should covm night work ?— A That I would not like to say. I will say this: that a man contracting to furnish" labour has got to keep on hand more men, he has got to make more effort in order to pro- vide this labour, and consequently assume more responsibility in order to furnish these men, and, therefore, he should have an increased price. Q. Don't you think that if he has furnished a special gang at night he has eone beyond what his contract requires of him ?— A Yes, I do, provided he had no price It would conae under the head of an extra. I consider it is worth more to contract to furnish labour, because he has a contract to furnish all that would work in the day time, and if he contracts to furnish labour additional to the day time it is more difficult to ^et the additional number of men, as a general rule. He has got to take the responsibility of getting them, and I think he is entitled to additional pay Q. So that in furnishing a special gang of men he went further than his con- tract required, which only obliged him to furnish men doing overtime hours in the evening?— A. Those men cannot be supposed to work the twenty-four hours through, but they can do a certain number of hours overtime. By Mr. McLeod ; Q. Do you think that contract provides for that ?— A. I do not know. By Mr. Douglas : ^' y°" consider that, under the specifications for night work in that contract Mr. St. Louis is in the position of a man doing extra work for the government?— A. If there is no tender for that, I think he is entitled to compensation if be takes the responsibility. I do not say that the night work will cost more, but he is takine a responsibility on his shoulders which he ought to be paid for. By Mr. Emard . r work Q. In that case, does night work cost more than overtime, or less ?— A That all depends on the circumstances. If I was hiring those men as a contractor for night work, I would get them for the same price ; but Mr. St. Louis has got to pro- vide those men, and he has got to be in a position to do so and keep himself in that position. Q. Is it not a fact that, as a rule, you have to pay more by the hour for night k than for three or four hours additional to a day's work ?— A. I will not say. By Mr. Vanier : Q. You stated that you knew Mr. Kennedy pretty well ?— Yes. I know him by his having worked for me for one or two years. Q. Under the circumfltanoes, would you have confided to him works as exten- sive as these ?— A. I do not like to answer that question ; I do not think it is a fair question to ask me. Q. Do you think he would be a proper person to take charge of works of that kind?— A. I have just said that I think Mr. Kennedy could have done better than a 11 b tc w g< si bi 245 By Mr. Douglas: of that magnitude. I beliove Mr K«nn«, f ''*""f . "J """^ '^'^V,"^ '"'•^^'"g ^» ^"^t stances as it was poeHfb e for one to do ^ r th J^^l ""• ''' ' ""^^'" ^''^ ^'«"'"- worker, a man ola great deal of Si tv R..f in rh a^ " pamstal^ ng, an oarne«t day. * aoiiity. But in those things we are learning every By Mr. Kennedy : Ryan^is''a°veVgoo3 Sr'a^S'.'an^'Jfr ^'^.^ '' ^"^"^ ^'^^'~^- ^^hn bridge. ^ ^ ' * ^"*''' "*"' ''"' I ^o»'d not give him charge of that By Mr. Archibald : that work and ruTd km>w UHt how to"take"u f I ""'^"«'«"^ «>' ^^e dTfflo1.lties of ence in that clans of worrwould h«Vhu ?„ ! ','■ *"!' * ™'*" Z^ ™«°y ^'ears' experi- I think Mr. KenLTdidThl ?t wL * •ir''7"*u^^^ stances. ^ ""^^ '' '^'^ possible for him to do under the circum- By Mr. Douglas : Q. What position did Mr. Kennedy occunv wiM, T,m,9 a rr superintendent on the railway. ^ occupy with you?— A. He was assistant Q. A walking boss ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Vanier : ing w^ouSat'be"era":fflfrTm'a?ol?tr'^^^^^^ *'^^ ' °'n^*P.«^ ""^'^ «^ P--'^* a matter of fact that is Sy what M? P«Lt^ '^ P'"' ^^i*?^ ^^ ^"°^ ^''at as 4inything about it. I arsirnp^ly speak^n/of t?e L'''"?1!'"'^'? ^-'^' } '^^ "«* ^"«^ two years, and loited theSdiLKhe If pll^^^-^ have done works for the last bridge and the AuSable^XTbe'gt^^^^^^^^^ to bulldlhoTe Sr'aEen'tl'ofthe" tw;brl7°" ^"^"^^ ''- T ^'^-''^^^'^ — -7 walls of tho canal?-A Xse qaestiori^^^^^^ exactly in line with the revetment O. Wnnld i* Ko^rLt- _t-M V ■■ • -^' '"'^'^ anything about. €0 down juVt below ;heUn;^o?W ? A^'of 'T ''^l'"!"^ '"^^"d, and n.ake them lion of the government of cour^ yo.7oi;i? i ''u'''^ **"" g''°°"'* ^*« '" ^^^^ P0««e8- proper bearin^n. That in all a matter of calculation for the enirineAr Th*t ««„i<» have mad* up for that We do that wherever we can in connti-icling brldtfes. the c?,to?tL7a^:?rVrA "o?ten S^^t^^ "Panof your bridjs „nd^dlmlni«lv «,/r,)^ I rauMonryr— A. uiten times, ft makes more waterwiivand ffivesvoi* aTdTuSir. '' J-t the ordinary coBt of the «uperstructure"anVrhetS; ;u&0?rdt?ete?:o:re7w1tlf E^^ St ilo^Ttn 'Z'n, 'S '''""^ •200.000 could ha HuvH,l h^ •>,;- ,.1...^' "9 a "'*''.'""" *^ »80,000; in round figures. By Mr. Atwater : ironS; ?ill-^°" '***? "^u"* ''^P^^ ""^ ''«^" that would allow for ?-A. There i. no- By Mr. McLeod: Q. How much would it increase the lenirth of snnn ? A tko* ^»,^«j spTnrmVh^" ^ttKe 1^^"^*^ T"^ »>-'^^^^^^^^^ V:^^t^tJZ ^ Mr P*».», A im''® '*°«?*Lo^'^P*" "« it *«. the whole Bwinging span ? Trunf JdterJalttlelo^gr''"' '"' '" ^''^ ^""•"«^«" bridgl a^^nd^the a^and Mr. 6bemer.— It makeo a pretty good swinir. ♦r. v.. I ■ ^^^^ '"crease the cost of the whole span. Of course it would reouire to be u heavier span altogether ?— A. Certainly. > »« u wouia i equire ' By Mr. Atwater : iv^^r>' V'^?/'?®' '^.^ cp"<;'-actor, vou are always in favour of doing works bv con- t^eeo mlers buf/Sru^t^ befieve in gove/nment doing just wh^at ?t pieces ?» oil Sent pai til. ' ^^'''' '" ''*''""'« '''' r««PO-ibiliiy of their ow^n actions By Mr. Parent : A. Yes.^"" "'* ''^'''^ '*"*' ^'' Kennedy was in charge of the works here?— Q. Suppo«ng Mr. Kennedy hod met with an accident which would orevent A. ituTd noTLYtha? " ^'" '''"''' "°'''' '''^^ ^^-cumstances. would be lost?- Q. You Lave an idea of the works, how everyti ■ was in cood onrflnization • now suppose a new man stepped in, don't you think thei e 3d be f I0 s ?-A There would be unless Mr. Ken*^bedy had assistants who had thrwork wel in hand This man would simply have to step In and take control of theselen rmplv learr; r^^p** t°-a"'%— ^- ""■'^ '" «"'^^ *^-T ^^«P«^'y- Some of tL'd3s^J.rht Tk?"'' Ti" "i l" f?' " ^"^"^ ™'*° ^^«*'" "'''e ™an «nd there wore good lieutenantiToiv 247 „mS"i,''*'"i*! *" '**^''* "f P'*"* infiniBhod, the derricks, the purchwe of m^tmrUl 7on^Z\'^^"^" M *' "u> ^'\ ^'"''^'' «""* '^^y ^•'•« -"^Ite^od aCt the work. ?-A You mean Uking Mr. konneUy off from the work under thoee cirouL«t«n?o, ? * * c:ock S. A. AiiBoTT, Stenographer. MONTBEAL, 7th August. Afternoon Sitting. J. J. CuRRAN, Q.C., Solicitor General, sworn :— By Mr. Archibald : MonLTcl^7e?-ATes.*''''''' ^'™'"'''" P*''""'"^'^^ '''' the constituency of bridg^e are'it3d'S.A'7es""'"'''' ''' P'^^"' ""'"'^^ "' '^' ^*'"'°«^«" »*'««' nf fK?;.^ think you had a good deal to do with the initiation and carrying tbrouch of those works ?-A. When the Honourable John Henry Pone became mi niHt«r^rvf tTi o!lT' '"'^ '"""'?; '•?* ^'''^ ""^ ''^^^ «^ Montreal, th^e ffid TruTk r^Iway Ud hnHH nf "; S«"«'f y •" the neighbourhood of those works agitated StronSv for "e ed^ ufnel " 7Z.^Jl^'- I ^*"' ": ^^ ^'•- P°P« '»'^»* 't. *^He said that hi favour* ^niM^f ?[• *^ *''^ •" ^'*''^"'' ^^ * »»""«'• ^me time after he told me that the l^lin ^^' government was to deepen the canal, so as to mako it naytable fo • sea fo as^^mtkeTt'su'if tt' r^''"' "' ''''' had petitioned to haye the 2l deepen^ ^hi!!:^ . !u ,'l *^® requirements of the trade. I believe the neoole west objected to the canal being throttled at its neck by a tunnel that would nKmiuhe deepening of the canal, and he said that he would build a bSe I h^Tyo^e S^e^^u and 3orrars*l:^th*^'7^' 7^ solicitation, a vote was takf p. first Stten*; iJJ K M ^ jl"?' ""'*. *^®" ^of a 'arger amount another year M.v Paee intend "±'. °""J"^'°°.^^*go^« i"»ny attacks in the papers for this delay "and'Twlnt perhaps fifty times to see Mr. Trudeau about it. fte always h«i his d ans of wWen waras, tor 1 went to Sir John Macdonald abont it in 1891, that he was opposed to m 248 ill? I! ■ f 1: 1: i hi Iff w.;fetfa\t,ioftf:iThF\^^^^^^^^^^^^ deepened .' Sir John Macdonald send you Trudeau'e iCrt In orST. h?,-M' ^'o™ H^^'ito". "' ^h'^h he said: "I first be deepened iWeenen .^ wtll Zt f * ^'"^F ** ***« '«"*'' '^« C""*^! ™»9t pu.po8ene?t8e88ion" iff^n atit^n/^''®,.""'^.* ''^^^ ^'" ''« t"'^^" ^or the broight the matter up in ShoJse I mad« ? L^' T' ^?^°^ ^?"' ^^ «^«'*'«°' ^ Mr. ^rudeau would n?ithe adomMr Pa/ei nla? nor tLlH «"»>J««A-'''^'"^ ^'^"^ Bpeech is in Hansard. In answef to^^v sfeeolf mV w ^^^'* ''°^* f ^.l'.'''^"- ^^ be built the forthcoming wint!^r>J^t£t faU Tn vil"™, ?^^?k Tl^ }^^ '""'^^^ ^'^"''^ it, I received any number of'comraunioitioi «n^f -"^^"^ ^^^^ ^^"^ ^^" '"''^ "bout 80 forth, and after this Zmi'e Tm. C^lW T ^^'•"^/''''P^P.''' ^"'PP'"^^ ^''^ congratulating me on hLing finally suSSd in rfHnt .»f ^''^^'- "«"/ t«'«g™m8 ment for last winter ^ 8uccee«led in getting the promise of the govern- .Kenn^^ Mr. KennXtft^ ^S^S^-inr'SSi^^^l-^Sn^^ teria?inThe"rr aL?f:ifZl-^th?:tr'' '?'^^'^ ^« P^«P«''"^ ^^^^ -- thing, so as not to ha?e a ruK t"h? winter '"'^ P'''P''"'' '"'^ "" ^'^«* '^'"'^ ^^ timetw^'n'tCouawTiTlw'Z Ti^ta'u'lllr^- 'pfP^'^ ? ^'"^ ^T''?' *--• ^-r.^ ^n:"?5rtha?^s^:^£S^ ve.yi.'5:>tTbou1\har aTe^l^^^^^^ :idSr^^^-^-f^i;i^ ^tt'Cm^'thrw^-^^"^- fis.%k"nrtrprpLr^^^^^^^ Si^rt^Th sup^eJi^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to Jo with it. T^ere 8 ° ao"'^"^^''--*^^ " *'*"*' ^^ ^^ "°*'''"^ to give to that bddge It is no?DKh?« h,?«?''^ ^"" ^''' *^' "^^^f^ '"b*^"'- ^^ ^"^ ^'^vl admit that I thouS Mr T?Sd«f,f w»5 f •'"'?'' "' '"P' '^tendent. Well, Ifrankiy and I said : WeW hTnk Sr Cn^Sv t^n"^ ? ?"•' "' ^^"^ain for another year, given him by the govern ment ' fnd he o^uJh t^h ^^'-IT ^°^ ^^^""e'^^tion unless it is and I think i told Mr Sedv that hfif^H h« n '^' n "^ ^ '"".^J^ °^*"«« ^^'^ t^at, iBter ^at is about a!??eSiit:il;?t?orvrr:^^^^^^^^^ --" in of In ^nilZ foThaTLlfcA^o' wtn M " ?f "-1^^" '^"Z ^" °^"'^ *^« ^""g'^g as a deputation, whLhwrd'd^(m"tOfitrhrM-p^'^^^^^ TrudeauwhenMr SgiMeiSdlwe^t n^^W^^^ ^? the office with Mr. What we went for wS to represer tU vie^^ o^f fV '*°°^ .5' ^'■^°* ^^ *»'« ^^^l^- to be taken out of the canal KlMftt inT f *^°'® '''^''J'^ "«* ^•«'' tl^« ^ater coarse of the conversSMr-rrnHLf ^ P^^"] ''^^ unwatering. In the was he thatVp7n~rclversIt?o^aLuT^ .rd^^^^^^^ ^«'^°«^^- '' ^Sd-^r-^s-rss-r^-^^^^^ #ffi 1 i 1 « c t t b n t] e C 249 Q. Who i. that Mr. flagb By.i.?_A. He i. a conmclor. I had with Mr Kenn^edv th„/T^ I • -^-^ understand was, from the conversation before voa ?_ A Thi! °f". '"»■"• Want to see you at Russell House 4 n m % Mr. Douglas. s^Mr. Drummond with you at the time ?-A. After I had f.'n^ifr If ^''°'?'"Oi.d came to my office, and ho said to O Was Mi »ifh«Vr ofuZ-Vu" v""T"" """ •?'"" "^ ^ne timer— A. Alter I had mv int«rvi«™. 352 befor:retjg^t?'"'' ''™' '"' ' ~"'" "' '"^^ --«' -' '^ ^^ ^« 'he department By Mr. Archibald : Q. Aud you all came down together?— A Yes n Su ^^" ^*"^ ^'h'^"* *h'^ ™'*"*^''' >" the cars ?— A Yes that'' I said to him i. K ^^" ™»'''» ™o"ey. they would say anybody could do work .m .' l^ke' I'rl'Z't yCC^' "vM^'l' '"f ^ " ^? °" "'? y""' there m ihe „,lddle of th,\.„tk, and I h J LnSdllt H,^ as . 1„ S^Sb'" 1" J^™„„„„d,who.,»t"CfohtL'Tht.r..e''r,;»,''.t,le''" ""'• '" '""""■ ;e|.| jjf'jL're-spt^s i:;L "tvr;^^^^^^^^^^^^ «l J ' »' "'■• Kennedy's something about the bridge—! foi^et exaoV Iv S Ik f^ ^"^^e. He said 5y ilfr. Douglas : vour^el/l'itr^efercTtoKlSned^^^^^^^^^ Mr Ogilvie, Mr. Trudeau and Been said here that the wo^ oSerwaltod L if i7w "^ overseer was used. It has :r^rer;j7t^.--/ii^^^^^ it wa, too bad to put tSfwEpoi £m wUh^^?".'"^^ "^^"'^ .^^^ "^ «^*'-* W' ^^^ him for his extra froub?e S ^ tHny fine d stincS^hTr^ ''""^ P''"^'*^f '^ ^^P^^ tendent I have not the slightest recolfeSnotthaJ ''° °^''''''*'^ ""'^ ""P*''^'^- y. You do not remember the word being used ?— No the civ^^tr^t h^^roug^tV^^^^ From instructions to Mr. Kennedy bTl do norir^Llvf^K^^w** *®"*^ ^'''"' * J«"er of Q. Instructions camfto^Mr krentappoTntT^^^^^^^ K^*" r' ^"°^ ""' °«*- was verbally requested to do so l^y Mr Truffi aud M' P--^^^^^^^ ""'* *"" on the wor/ove\seer. Do you rLembe^That woJ^^-I'?dVnot.^^ '''"' £y Mr. Atwater: i^'j 954 tetter. One was w to the Hyutem, the other was the syycem having been adopted, ' there was a dijQdculty about the cii-vsaification, and that common labourers were sought to be put on as skilled labourers. Q. So far as the system of getting labour by contract itself was concerned, from the point of view of the department, considering the time in which they bad to do the work and the possibility of strikes and the diliiculty of obtaining labour, what would be your own idea with regard to their tt(,!opting that sytuera ?— A. I &m not a contractor and cannot say anything about that. Q. You would not be prepared to condemn them for having doue it in thai way ? — A. I am here to state facts only. Q. Did you mention the matter to the department vhen you srot Mr. Kennedy's letter, i r complaimvi in any way about their having sdoyjied the ct'ii'^act system ? — A. When I got the lotter, that was the first intimation I had that such a syp'em hwi been adopted and that >i contract had been given. If you r«ally wan'. ;o kiiow wbaS< I felt, it was this: tbvi 'n view of the woi-k biding done in my constituency, I ihou'^^ht I should have been told this wap K'oinsr to be tione, so that I might have r.otifu'! a certain'number of cuntrftctois w'; > hud put in tendei's for the labour. Q. As a matter of fact, you i "w at' Jt it? — A. I knew nothing about it, 1 hud nothing to do with the contract fot birinj the labo a r or any contract for supplies, or anything in connection with thin biidi;* v:o;n bbgiri.iing to end. Q. Did you not exercise any influu ' :, ov anything of that sort ? — A. Not at all, because as I told you, I hud no! anyrh" g to do with it. Q. One of the witnesses sai'}. tbsit iiC had spoken to you about trying to got a contract from the superintetident, aud you bad introduced him to Mr. Kenr.edy, Mr. O'Connor said this ?— A. Mr. O'Connor came to my office. He said : " The) »* is going to be some work done on that bridge, and thev will require some lumber and i ougL . to get a share of that." I said : "Mr. O'Connor, I will give you a lettijr introduci ng you to Mr. Kennedy." I would have done that for any other constituent, Q. A «i you did so ?— A. Yes. Q. Thoi-'i was no exercise of influence whatever in Mr. O'Connor's favour ? — A. There could bave been none, because he did not get any of the supply. By Mr. Parent : Q. In the conversations with Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Ogilvie and you and I had, our recollection is not the same ? — A. I do not suppose any two recollections of conver- sations are the same ; but in the main, the facts should be the same. Q. T know there was a conversation about all you said, and I agi-ee it was all said, but there is one little point on which we differ. You said it was Mr, Trudeau rvho first spoke about Mr. Kennedy ? — A. I think so. Q. My impression is that when you spoke, it was like a slap at my face as it fitruok me ?— A. That may have impressed you, but it was not in my mind at all. Q. I found that out afterwards, and that is why it make me think that you got the first word about Kennedy, by stating Kennedy should be the overseer of that work; and it struck me, why is that asked ? He is naturally, as superintendent, the man who ought to be in charge of the work, as he is on all the other canals? — A. You see, Mr. Parent, Mr. Trudeau had already spoken to me. Q. That is what 1 believe. — A. Previous to that meeting at all, and he brought the subject out himself. He commenced by praising Kennedy to me. Q. That I anderstand perfectly well. — A. I did not know exactly why he shi' .i^i introduce that subjeot, and then, his immediately saying afterwards: " There i- u-f money to pay him for this work, it is not / his business, it is work he hf^vh loi have the responsibility of," and soon. I. not jjrou in my mind at all. ?_;, ;>-"n idea was that Mr. Trudeau wanted to de'a^ \ "3 bridge again, because, ari »' c' > not exaggerate, I had 50 interviews with him about that bt*idge, and he at a :. 7 < had «omo excuse for putting i'. back, and when ,hp,prsis"d Kenned}' in that way ^; i ■ ■j^n brought in the question of the bridge, and spoke about its not comipg w.i.a; i ':l>.c scope of his duties, &«., I thought that .perhaps he wanted to postpone the bri^I^e. I 1 ] e s d o I h 265 V »o„ld b. the ov,r.,e,.._A"'Th.,»uld"„'^?U Wo Jtj „W,t?.'L",;-- ''''""?'''• ment at all. "'*' ""'' S° there for his appoint- BecaUheld T'e^iiy spJke^tJ me^atuH? 'Ph\' i' ^''-.Trudeau about it?-A. of th?ca?af I carsay hereThaT^a^L' ^eV'^'^ *^ ^f.^ '^*'""* ^'^^ --^^--g against you in my life^ '"*''* ""''" "««^ « f««tb«r weight of influenc! tion.^\Vu^uWhSMr''Kl'uTafa\\^t^^^^ do you suppose he got Tat opinion ?-A I Zn Jt ^P'"'''" ^^■^'•- ^^^''"e'^y. How Q. Do you know how he iot it? A Ui • ^°»7 ""ytning at all about that. versaiioD. ^e may have ment oner^ou, nnn.'"^'''"^'' '^ remembei all this con: highly of KennedJ. o^ he ma? have^'^^en^old rXf ' ""l^"'' "' ''"^'"^ spoken canal, but at all events, he tol^L he w^ virmth nT«'^?'^t''".. *'^^ ^'''^ ^^^ ^"^•"q' tj tittTirtrT 'P^^^^^^^^i aTfh r- ^'" '' '^' oocasTon when Mr"SennSy a^d m/s^elf'wenTSfto"."'^'''*' "«'^T'«"«' -- - «" little qu8rrel.-A. I know ve.y wTtharSfr tL ^T •" ^^Pl^nation about a And further deponent saith not. E. J. DuaoAN, Stenographer. Afternoon Session. 4th August, 1893. George A. Deummond, Senator, being sworn, deposes as follows: £y Mr. Archibald : roadt ?«;?« ^HhTu'r'rgtr^fi^^ T'T'"' ^ macadamised with regard to th«t?_A I do nft know In'vfhinL -^^ ?"/'?'i ^^""^ y°^««* *« ™«ke has been done. And I can add tbaT I nlvl^if^"' '*'^'*''°°^''«''«^««°ythi"g Kennedy on such a subject * ^"^ ^'''^ *"^ communication with Mr Q. Is there a road along the bank of the PRnal? a rru access to the canal alone that finnfuo»\y,f me canal?— A There is, which g ves street affords all the Ss that we w?Jt l^^ttT T/'""/ "*« ''• ^'' ^^^rick municated with Mr. Kennedy on the subiecf?nrH.Tl°^ "'^^ «'' ««™- done on the place. Then Zrrwas a reSn" e to mv T W '' ^°^ ^""'^ ^"^^ «^«'- papers made a mistake. With referenn« trfL. t^ }i ^?"." P^'^Periy, unless lt.>enri which borders on IL otaT^LM/'-f^iVX^^^^l'^^^^ - P'^oP-'ty at on m tbe eanal, and I am not aware ofanvthin^ holV k"''" / »«ytning lUttl goes I am aware that nothing ww e»^r wkerfo hv^Ji ^ ''*^"- '^?"" ''^®'«' «'*!»«••. «nd -brought up. ^ ■*'*®^ *^"' ^y '°®' "O"" ^as it in any shape or form 269 By Mr. Douglas, Q. Does that road belong to the government, or is it a private road ? — A. 1 believe that road is partly the property of the government and partly the property of the corporation, and so far as I know, nothing has been done. It has not been kept in order at all. At the present moment it is littered all over with stones, ap- parently from those works. Q. So the macadamizing of that road would be of no advantage to you ? — A. Certainly, I do not use the road at all, except when you cross the street to reach the canal. Q. Were these macadamized ? — A. No, that belongs to the city. By Mr. Archibald : Q. Since you are here, I may ask you one or two questions. Did you happen to come down from Ottawa, or to meet Mr. Kennedy in Ottawa, during the course of last winter ?— A. Yes. Q. Can you say about what date? — A. No, I am not very sure, about the begin- ning of March. Q. Did you have some conversation with him on that occasion ? — A. Yes. Q. Would you mind relating the nature of that conversation ? — A. Well, I had a telegram from Edward Kennedy in Ottawa, that he wanted particularly to see me in Ottawa. I had made arrangements to leave by the afternoon train, and it was not convenient for me to remain in Ottawa ; I was coming back to Montreal by the afternoon train. On the receipt of that message, not knowing what it could refer to, 1 mentioned it to Mr. Curran, when he told me he had a similar message from Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Curran said that this message from Mr. Kennedy, the intent of which he did not know, was to the same effect as mine, namely, that he wanted to see him in Ottawa. Mr. Curran had seen Mr. Schreiber, and Mr. Sohreiber expressed surprise at Mr. Kennedy's coming up, and asked why he left his duty on the canal to come up to Ottawa. Mr. Curran ^tated that he had thereupon advised Mr. Kennedy not to come, and asked me if [ would do the same, if I thought it right to do the same, which I did. 1 telegraphed to Mr. Kennedy, thinking that it would get him into trouble with his superiors, that he had better not come. When I was leaving on the afternoon train, Mr. Kennedy turned up. He had been too late, he said he had not received my telegram and he had come, but in consequence of what I had advised him, he would return by the same train, which he did. I then asked what was the matter ? • « By Mr. McLeod : Q. In his telegram he simply said that he wanted to see you in Ottawa ? — A. He said, 1 want particularly to see you ; please remain. That was all he said. I have not the telegram, but I have no doubt it could be got. I am willing to pro- duce it if desired. I asked him on the train coming down to Montreal, what was the mattei'. Q. What time was this? — A. Early in March, I think. He said that the work of superintending this bridge had practically be6n taken out of his handp, and that a contract had been made for so much work at days* wages, which he was satisfied in his own mind would lead to a largely increased cost of the bridge and to trouble in the future ; and I think he had contemplated throwing up his situation at the time. By Mr. Douglas : . Q. The bridge portion alone, not the canal ? — A. I cannot Ray. We only spoke generally on that point, and I am not clear that he defined that intention very well. I asked him if ho had any responsibility with reference lo the giving out of that con- tract, and he said, no, he had none. Then I said, in one sense it is none of your business what the nature of the contract is that has been given by the boai-d of tti it hi n( til ap- 257 ' drtLpet^:1.YltB'p?oceedr^^ t^' t'^ ^^.? ^^' »>« -"'d, and be very that special incident P'"*'^^'"^" «» «" ^^ ^eep hi8 skirts clear. That terminatS By Mr. Archibald : usually once a day v" «»"u your warehouse ?— A. I cross the bridge you ?oti-tVeM hivV rwtr^i^„:x"rj of "°r ^^ ^'^'^^ "^«-^-. «>-« •H Q. xVow. in piising bwWds a^d LmaVS thL!!"^ k^^^^^^ °^ •"«"• receive as to the manner irwhioh the work^J? ^ ^"t' '^'"*J 'mpression did you I could see that it was i gr^at Snder J?n1 ZZZf f^"' '^' bridge ?--A. \/eII, Cnn^fh""' ""' considerable clTn?ittac?ver;e nSull"' aC' tt"h'-*/ ''^'^ begun, there was a very severe hhaII nf f..«=* JLC- t""^^'^^^- Atter the bridge was materially to the dZluZ S fJl^t'J^'^ ™"'' '"^. I thought added veiy dental way, having nothinTto do witlTi? „ ^"^ progress of the works in an inoi- elusion that the S wal^ell donT ' ^''" ^''* *^"'''' ''"^ ^ «""»« »« t^e con- any ?;opir cont^l^-lTo on Ihl ZtSJv^lTo '"h?'.^ "'^^ «« '* ^«^«. -'tl'out vision had been anticipated 'Sere were S«ntv of H^^^V''''^"^^ reasonable pro- and the gang-ways and The temporr^ worK^^^^^ they erred at all. fomporaiy works seemed to be more than sufficient if was under Mr. Kennedy. * ^**" '° "^'^'^''^^ ^'''J efficient before as it Q. From your daily duties you have an opportunity of seein*. th..t ? a v Q. There has been somethine said hera KS^^uttll ^ that?— A. Yes. bridge work through political influence Have vou^n^r^'f '"* °^ '"^'^ ^*^'- *bi8 are concerned, about that ?-A So fort's llm nJn? ""^^^mg to say, so far as you of any such influence, that I neve^-eLmrenTn '"^K'i'*^ ^'^^^ ^ ^°«^ °^^^^^^ was cognizant of any expendiLi^ SLg TnrrtHken fo7^f?io»1 *°^ ««°tr«?tor. o? ever of any contr^act which, ^vrSntla;!?;^;;, ^-^^SS::^'- By Mr. McLeodt seen reoBon to reUnt it-lm^ZC^^^: I . ^""^Y. «>ia I hate nevir hie .ppoia.™e«. 'o''ove™.,reZ.^|,rk'„tr„'oSg°'ofX^^^^^^ ^» '" nect||?ZS?tSrt£?C^;L;;;r''^^«"-^-^^ Only as con- use wate^po^vfeXSXlVi'i^^^ who in Deoemb^er; do you know any^ng oFthat?-! So-lt"''* °^'. be unwatered have no water power from th-»«o'J,oi *N ^-. ^A*^ ^- ^J^» 1,^*8 not present. We no part in it. ~" ' ^ "^^ """^ P^^ent at that meetfng, and took time.^' ^°y«°'^'^<>^' ^f««oh a meeting having been held ?-A. Iheardofitat the 17 258 Q. Sapposing the canal hn^ been unwpterM an snrly m December so an to give a longer time to complete those works, do «. i > o'v >.'■' J effect it would have had ? — A. I think it would have thrown ov ■ (uanui' i. jr in the canal, more or less, out of work, and it would have stoppeo oir ^.< T'.za entirely. Q. Would it have stopped the work of the Canada sugar Refining Company? — A. Ye8,entirely. Q. How many operators would have been thrown out of empioymeut? — A. In our own establishment ? Q. Yes, and altogether ? — A. Between six or seven hundred men would have been thrown out of employment incur own establishment ivn:. ....v ,1 thousands ■would have been thrown out of emplovment altogether, i may say with reiorence to that, that some of the other works have steam power, and thoy might have gone on by either turning the stfiam power into use, or by adding sieam power. But in our case we should nave (■^♦r; pea altogether. Q. So that it was in th>> .nterest of a large number of employees and of manu- facturers along the cunal, U at this work should have been commenced at as late a date as possible and iinisht'd as early as possible?— A. If it had been begun much earlier, it would have p.oi^uced a veiy serious state of things all round the neighbor- hood on account of losb of employment. Q. Would that have *)een greater than any additiona' cost the government might have been put to by doing it as a forced job, as it was done ? — A. Coi tainly, a great deal more. Q. What would have been the damage, in your opinion, if this work had not been completed by the opening of navigation, or by the first of i'ay ? — A. There would have been a rebellion on the point if they hud not got at^-oss ttio canal. Q, I am speaking of the effect upon commerce ? — A. And if the canal had not been opened on the first, there would have been a rebellion in the city. Q. What would it have meant 'n dollars and cents? — A. An enormous loss, the whole of the traiBc on the canal would have been suspended, it navigation hud been intercepted, and the traflBc of that largo portion of the city beyond the canal, would have been dislocated. Q, So that taking both these facts into consideration, the government were wise in deferring the commencement of the work to as 'ate a date as possible, and trying to get through as soon as possible ? — A. Thuy could not have done anything else. Q. Even at the risk of making the f ^ t greu er than it therwise vould have been ? — A. Yes, a great deal more than ti Q. In speaking of that matter that Mr. Kennedy complained to you about, did you understand exactly what it was that he was complaining about at thfe time? — A. I have told you all I can recoUeot about it -it was, that he was satisfied that under the contract whioh had been made fu- the engagement " labour by tiie day's wages, the work would cost more than it would have don'e had it been left to him, Q. in other words, he wanted ito have the engaging of his own labour ?— A. lie «wanteid the engagement of his own labour and paying for it at *Jk: price the labourer «ot. Q. Instead of doing it by. ooDtsaot?— A. Yes. Q. Mr. Kennedy thought that he could have done b er labour had been left to him' -A. That is pU. I am oni ipei. Kennedy's feelings were, T cnuld not estimate the question at all. Q. 'You ai-e ; ii prepared, of course, at the moment to criticize the circumstancoit under which thiw contract was given for the employment of labour ? — A. Not at all. I can say this : That if you had a mdn in whom you 'have perfect confidence you <^n trust him to engage the labour; 'but it would pay in many cases to employ a competent contractor, and pay him for his brains and organization to do it; to em- -pioy 'the labour and pay him a percentage for doing so. That is a general principle. y. So that you are not prepared to critisize the action of the department in contracting for th« labour to be donr ? — A. "No. ' he employment of ig as to what Mr. m .t thi?e:Si1.^';7the'V«Sr£'"pJl^K^ - <^0'"« this work men, and the oxtre.ae iCo tan^eThavinJ^?hI^»l striken the difllculty of getting do yon not think that it £ight havl &1 XZL^^o^li ""^ "" ""* °^ ^«^ into a contract for the supply of labour?-! IHo /k^^i the ^'«P»''»n»ent to enter way : That if I wete the tniniHter oifliTunnn'l'' ^"^ ^°- ^"t ^ ^"fi"« 't in this pei-sonal acquaintance wi?h Mr Kenned^ n^tV '^"'^ "".' *>« ^^^"traot, without Lvepreferrea engaging „cont;a^r;^^^^^^^^^ canal, I would principle. I know nothing about the detai?8 ^ ^ ™"°'' *' *''*" ^««" '^<^°«. ^n an inlivL'Sartritorheru'ldtl noJirV? '* '' T^' into a contract with ju«t an you reqa^^Hitioned ll^nd yorwo^ld h^^^^^^^ ^'V *^« '''^«'»-' oominision ?— A. I would have ba«n ormti;.^ Yru <'?"tont to give him a profit or him fb- JiH expenence^ldTsXarat'ndS^^^^^^^^^^ "'*' ™^«^- «?-' - pay §: Th'^t'^alt^tHSdpTe^^^^^ not forget that, if I h£l had L ad^niatat^L Xk !".? P'r««.ttie4i,ffere«r. itMt hlSTej' tr^SO^J^^^T^^^ -"!4 4lpril„««d -e wouidfiv^Cipve tiiJr ^^^'^''"^ ♦''«" ^'^ M.rph aod ■I' J MO T k ^: ^j^- not see that, beoautie you would not have bo much ice to take out?- A. 1 b«g to dilTei' with you in opinion, because the io< would hiive been forming every Q. The water would have been out of the canal ?— A. The ice can form with no water in the canal. Q. Were you ever present in the canal *hen the works wore going on?— -A. Yes Q. Did you not see a large body of water running through all the time?— A. Q. That would have frown solid ?— A. Of course it would. But I hava no hesi- tatlonm saying that if the water hud been taken out in the months of December and January there would have been a constant formation of ice, and the whole place would have been dammed i. , and it would have cost 25 per cent more to work it than it did in March and Apni. Q. The engineer has stated before this commission that he recommended it to be taken out in the summer ?— A. I remember that. By Mr. McLeod: Q. Of course the frost was very much more severe in December and January? — A. Yes, continuous. "' Q. More severe than it would bo in March and May?— A. Certainly. By the beginning of April the severe frosts are practically over, but we might have a spell ol cold now and again. But as a mutter of fact, it is my decided opinion that if you liad undertaken that work in the middle of the winter, it would have added very materially to whatever cost has been incurred. By Mr. Douglas : Q. Do you consider that the Lachine canal was built for the benefit of the mill- owners?— A. No, I do not; but if the government chose to build the Lachine canal and let it to the mill-owners and derive a rental from them, they have a certain in- terential obligation towai-ds the mill^jwners. Q. Do yciu consider their interest paramount to navigation ?— A. I did not say so, nor do I thmk so. I consider that the interests of navigation are superior. But the government are bound to respect the obligation towards the mill-owners from which they derive a revenue. By Mr. Vanier : Q, Did you not write to me a few days ago asking why your name had been brought before this commission ?— Yes, I did, and I got no answer. Q. I suppose you understand that the commission cannot answer private cor- respondence? — A. Fes. *^ Q. The reason I did not answer was because the commission intended to ask you to come before UP.— A. I have already denied at some length the implications which I saw in the press. I did think that your position as commissioner scarcely gave you a warrant to introduce such a question at all. Q. I read that letter to my confreres, and I think it was the intention to ask you to appear here at some time.— A. I think that if you had had any such infor- mation, you might have asked the source of your information to corroborate it or confirm the statement. Ton put into the shape of a leading question somethine which your witness could only say he had heard something about. I did think that was veiy improper. Q. But the information came in the usual way before the commission. That is the reason the question was put.— A. I did not so understand it, beci e as I saw It, the juee on was put in examining Mr. Parent: Have you ever heuid so and so? ifyouii^G uwjn acting in o judicial capacity you would have said: Have you any understanding, any information that Senator Drummond's property had been bene- "l1 11 ; 361 ^^^ Q. Did you 8oe the evidoooe that waa given ?-A. T hhw it in the papers, that i. Q. The papers are not the official reports of the commiMion A little laf«r nn I will let you rea.1 the evidence that wiu. iriven -A Ver v .rood Intl.Vl I have outeKo..loally denie.1 that my prop5,'rr«t St." Heifi^or niy propert?o\ thJ And further deponent uaith not. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 263 vw V ? trf LacHINE CA^fAL Inqpiry. Montreal, 4th August, 1893. ' The commission met at 10 o'clock, a.m. I^reaentt Messrs. McLeod, Vanieb and Douglas. W. W. OGILVIE, Miller, on being duly sv,rorn, deposed as follows :- put Ll^:!' "^' *° '""'^ ^ ^*'***™^"^' ^"^ ^''^^ '^-^ I will answer any question* the w'L"ti':u\'St?:tn"i'r'tLrsitrct'br^^ ^^^'•"™^"' p^^p^'^^^ *« *'^'^- new Wellington street br dge I was also ,Sm«^ SI^m P'^'""'" °* ^"•''^^"^ ^^^ 3ra'tJ.r T&irZV^ ^^'"'^ '^"^^^^ in^rird^hat'lTo ,7gVup^^^^^^^^^ MfT?ude?u^fd"M.fk?eT\Ta e?t:'?he';:- ^f,^ '''''"r«^ -ornTngVeTe" out of the canal would throw a Se nn m h«P .f^'°*'r'° ^^''l ^"'^'"S '^^ water cause great loss to the manufacture1-s ThelLd oV'ltV, ^ employment, and canal as long as possible and also to hn™ tVf^^ l-^^™ to leave the water in the the government Er he sunev^s on n^^^^^^^ excavation and stonework done by I mot Mr. Palrlok fenn^y oTsT k St.. '',"1''° "t?."" T" ''!/"'■'='' '«■ "''<"> leak in the guard wall of t^e^anaFon no ? h^^ ""•; ^*"* 'P'''"g ^^^^^^ was a is government woi^ but ^7^ bad condS^C ™^ P'^P''*^' '^'^^^ ^«» contemplation the rebuilding ofThfs wall fo?om« J. 8^^;^^°* ^''^^ '^^^ i" doing so, and finding a nart of hJ^nii •. ^®'"^^' ^"^ *^® government not condition I repaired it by Sncretin^tK^^ rP"""^-^ '" « dangerous During the work mv broken flton« £.««„* ^ fJ'^^ ""^^ ^^ * ^°«t of about $600. tendent of the Lachfnp cana" whioh^T r^fmln ^'-'''Tf '°™« ^'•°'" ^^e superin- the bank of the canal 1 am ^Susfied tha^J^""'^ '" ^^^' .^""^ ^^'^"^ '« ''^w on stone from me than"reverZ;:w:?f'omfhem ^''^^^°™-* '^-^ ^^^-wed more Btre/ts^^rradt ''iMv'eThat'' Z trnoj' J-'"^' ^^f l^^^'^«^ «^-« f-" -«'^-^ streets surround ng my mmiihiSalsTrvr '"^*^.' government own thf water lowered in the can^ To S s T Sl^l ^«'"f ^^f^ed, if I had ever had the ^ '^^ .argVsrptpr^L^; tCcra^f oSi^rh^rs^^^AiT?? S:;at^i=i^r?-r^-CtK:S«^ "It 263 ''» asked for on Sunday in all cases except one, where no one was inconvenienced and at no cost to the government. When I asked to have it low3 othei thiin n„ Sunday, was the day after the water was let into the canal thirspringTheSew^ a leak ,n the new wal made by the corporation across Seigneurs sttef. ThTlIS made Its appearance the next morning. I realized that the corporation D not gone down low enough with this wall. I immediately ask^traUhe water b^ woTk T am^^nL^'^H^'^ *^""'""'*^ '^' ^''''' «^ '^''' ''^'^^^S^ it was corToration may put to me ^^^^ ^ *'"'"'' ""^ •^"'^"*'°' '^' gentlemen of the oommissioa By Mr. McLeod: fKnf ?•: ^^^,?*'';:^ ^!J"u^°,''i'' '*^''"* *^« ^''"'^ of trade. The board of trade asked that the mills should be left open us long as possible did thev not?— A r ihint n-!f not the board of trad,-tho manufacturers oS the LVhino ca^na? ^ °'*' Q. Can you givj the names of these?— A. It came about in this wav IVfr Parent was repeatedly speaking of the first of December! AfSr we had ,Yturfed Srh?,i'S >' '""' '° "/ "^'^ '^r ""^^ ^P^l^^ «bout the first of Docembe. I told him that It was a most serious thing, and I believed totally unnecessarv that tZ >,\n^ f ^'7 ^''^' l^J^'y, *° ^^^ manufacturers on the can^a", and thi^o^w pro bably 5,000 families out of employment. He there said that he would 1 ke to miet W lUhaTdoT' nrsaid' 1' ^ J^J "'"' T "" ™^^* ^^'^^''-^ '^^ '^S IS. ZfulTl u- 7>'l'Jf.- . V*"^" '^^"^'^ "o^'^'^s to nearly all the manufacturers on the Lachine canal. I think 90 per cent of them were p/esent and it was these people who urged upon Mr. Parent the necessity of leaving the water n Z canal TThJrS- f 'h'"I^ 'f' ™!!"'"- "T^- «"°^« "P '>«fo^« the boaiVof trade Q. The board ot trade had nothing to do with it ?-A. I think not. y. Were there other merchants in Montreal who made a similar UDDlication— people in business ?_A. I think it was altogether the manuS urer?^ I do n7t think the merchants were consulted in the matter. Q. You said that former repairs of approximately the same extent were done in the same way, by etting the water out for a short time only ?-A. No sir what I Sk..Tf hf.n"- ^ ""^ T ^ ^'- ^'^r^ ''^^■"^ ^^'-^ constfuctet uSr L Juper- Zone of thrr^n""'' ""J «"Per.ntendent of the Lachine canal. I stated that fhat trse7uil[?n th'rm": ^at '''' °' '"'^'*^'^" "^ ''''''' ''' ^^^ ^^^ *« h-« Q. At what season was that built, do you remember ?— A. Those two St. Gabriel neH 'mdT S' '"'^"'^ '".k^" '"'"™^'^ "^"""^ '^e season of navigation. Mi- sTj! ?h!.n. Mr. Conway were then in charge. It was done at the urgent request Sf the corn exchange and the merchants oi Montreal, there being then a too limited Sin-T'^f "" J"«- '^'xt"^"^' r''^^'^ to accommodate the trade. ^ It was undeTthe administration of Sir Hector Langevin. The government was urged to have this work pushed on as fast as possible, and it was done under the engineer a,id uperin- tendent of the Lachine canal, then Mr. Sippell and Mr-. Conway. ^ By Mr. Douglas : it onMn^inli^ the difference between taking the water out in December and taking LZ\ I "^f ""''^^' ^'^'^^'^ «nd AP^il ?~A. There is a great deal of difference. The people had no warning ; they had no stock ahead in March and April. If thev had rrfi\°i^t&rtir' '" ^""^ '^ ^'' "p ^ ^*^^' ^^ p^^^ ^^^^ ^^««« ^^« ■"^•^'s' th. ,?■ l^-r"^ ^^A ^^^ three months notice that the government were to undertake tr!,r r''}'^ r* ^^''^ "^^^ ^^^y difference ?-.^A^ There is another thing which jou will understand, as an engineer, the taking of the water out of the canal in the severe winter months is a verv danfferons t.hin^ The f-o-^ cf^*- -n -^-fl-™?-" - -^ heaves out the planks of the 'canar flumes and ev'erything^eise. The'mon'tL' of f^rn^-n^r- ^" f "* not severe, and men can do more work at less risk of injury to the canal in March and April than in previous months. ^ 264 mt i'' III '6 tion I had with the goveinraLt w-B^n ttirt" ^°'} ^'^ "°'- .^?,' ''"'^ conversa- Mr Pflr«nV In^io * *• *"** ^*'^''* interview with Mr. Trudeau named £KenueVLtes?erT"i' ??f- ^^^.^V^'^" ?."<1 ^^- C-^'""" ^^P^^ially besoundiplomatS^aa oaskthat-y»»b^^^^^^^^^ ^l" '^"'^ tbatY^oul5 officer? fhe fact is that my word7to Mr Tr. H^ ^^ P'*^^ °?';.^' '"?«"'''' Bpoke of the officialH, menS^^i^g the engfne^^first an7ZnT.!.nn''''''i''T^ i would not even mention names Mr pF™ * ^ *"?" *'^^ superintendent. I Now wi hrl «.,.H T ^*®"* ^^'^ present during the whole time KennVo^Edward Tenn d/rA%^'T^^'^^ Mr. Kenn^edy, was it Patrick tendent^hom I met on the L-^Tt '*"''' ^""""'^y' '^' ^'"'^'^ «'' *^« «"P«'i°- pay Hs'tt^VVo^^haJ^H * J'h "^"^ ?^J'"**'* *^ P""'"^ '^e names on Mr. St. Louis K S. Louts' pay ^ St at a hiS-e^r -?: th "''?r "'''" ^^- ^^''^"^ ^« P»^ *»»« °»«" o' O Was nnt iKufoft .i^ *^® *^*" ^^'^ "en were receiving. and washed ou the cc^-neiof mv mir" Frt T'^f '^^ ^^'^'' ''""' '^ ''' «"« t''^^ has been speaking aborrebuilSL that wall W« t7°' "^ ''° ^'"'^ ^"- ^'•'^'^«'*" mL not moving in fhrmatterf'^f '' ."' " ""'* °,?P^^^""« *'»«• ^he Govern m»n^. l^ave you th,4"hil'^?-T fr'"""" "' '' ^'^^ '""""^'^ '" ^^'^^ *h« <'»"*1 has been managed that M... Kennedy is by far tKst ma^we" &TaVinTo Teart '*"" " "^^°^ jB^ Jlfr. Parent : v.,7gre...u..k,fe,. .nobody .„ .»y ,„, if a7b"''4'tj'„,;',r;;,'„',^r! nnnnS"*^*' m' ^"'^ remember those were the words that Mr Curran us^d ? A ^« t canaft^";"! K^hare^iTuuie" m l^^^^^^ as superintending engineer of the always been of t^ ml^S/ict; nature ^'^ '^'""*^' "^* ^"^ ^"*«^^'-^« ^^^^ Q. You never had any reason to complain ?— A. Never, By Mr. Parent : ' No. 267 be right for me to contiadiot Mr. Carran. I have no recollection of his saving so !r? !l7'u« *" recollect the first time that Mr. Kennedy's name wa^ raeSi oned' Ml? Trideau^'* "^ knowledge the first time his name was mentioned™ twa« by By Mr. McLeod: «„f fS;J°" *l'°'iS^t/l»e staff of the canal was quite sufficient to manage and cany out those works?— A. Quite; I am positive of it yet. ^ Q. You saw no reason why anybody else should be taken on?— A. I saw no shZ" Tt^n^. hf fK?^** *" ^"y contracts for labour or material or anything in that shape; I thought that an engineer from Ottawa and Mr. Parent and Mr. Kenned v-l I am naming them now for the first time, because 1 have called them the engineer h^i „?'"n^'"*^*"^"^*^°"?'^*u**^''*"°'^«'' ^^^''^ gentlemen that work couThave been as well earned out as tie building of no. 1 and no. 2 basins at St. Gabriel H- You do not think Mr. Kennedy could have been ovei-worked so that he '' o" ml t\"« i" '^' "'^'^•^ ^^'^r^ Oh no, ho is a very vigorous stiong man. Q. Way there any scarcity of labour at that time, when the work began ?-A Oh, dear, no, no scarcity of labour. It was a God-send to the city ^ "^ ^ -*• f« i\r' /*^«''®,^«'® plenty of masons, slonecutlei-s and labourers generally?— A As to the stonecutters, that 18 a question I could not answer; but it looks to me Ihtt :mpb;ir of ^btr!'' '''^""" "^ ^''''''' ^' ''''' '^^^ ^''"^^ ^'ear I amTl^rge «115^" ^^'^^"^T/gg^'^® "^"g®^ ^'"'" go'^d 'abourers about that time?— A. From «1 to Q. Plenty of good men at that rate?— A. I should say so. By Mr. Afwafer : ««aHo^"o??h/r„.''^Y' T^V/^ '° advance of being able to obtain labour at that TnTntli tl ^''"^-A- I think 80. Up to the 1st of April you can always depend the cana? ^°" ' '" sometimes a little different if the water is out of l^hmltf^'^K* '^ "«t ^^a^e been a little bit risky to have relied on getting enough aSr9 1 rr'^'^"':'"^^?"'^'**^""*'^'"^ P'-"^'^'"" being made to get the labour?— A. I think not. I think it was running no risk then f«mnLri?''''i^%t""^^^°'''*T"^uP"^!'"*'7'''*^" g'''"S «" *t that time, or con- Wmplated?— A. They were smaller than in former years. Q. But in December were there not a good many public works and city work contemplated to be undertaken early in the spring ?-A. Not to my knowledge il You are not aware of any ?— I am not. Q. Does your price for labour refer to the prices in March or in April, or any Krlnd a'" h1' "*' '" '' ^PP'^ ^"^ *" ^^^ """^ ^~^' ^' ^^"'"^ •^PP'y t^ ^^brnar^ Q. Yon think the rate would not be higher in April?— A. No. I nay «1 10 for Jabourers, winter and summer. P»., cx.w loi Q. You mean ordinary labourers?— A. Ordinary labourers. H- What do you pay AuUod !;ihourers?-A. I pay my carpenters $2 a day the year round, and good mil vngb.^ on short jobs $2.50 for a day of 10 hours-and I im suppose^} to pay the hip he ) v/ages that are going. ..^ Q' j?oyoiP»y''ny n'>^'-'Pr over-time?— A. I ha?e refused to pay for over- w!kJ I ""1" """"v. ''"'' V''-^\T' ^^*hey wish, at the same late aUay work, I have had men leave because I would not pay thorn extra. I do not do it H- Where the wor'i was of absolute necessity, would you consider that pay for IZ'1!!Z.T ^'^'^"af-^- ^f^'^^'^y^^''^^ doit. ByWr-time I mean where a man works his 10 hours and then works 4 or 5 hours after that. After the 10 nours. it la pxtra. Q. Would you consider it over-time if a man did not work during the day but came on and worked at night ?-A. No, I paid those men the same as I did in .he uay time. 268 fcr Buppi?t7beXhS:L'"°'''^ '^'^"'' '-^- ''''' '« -* " "- »"""" »«■""..„ i„ the d.y,i„e?_A. Ye,, «, m?/™'„;.l?';'„;.°kir;„r„i?!;,'^ '■' "°* •'"■" '-^- ^■"«'"^- ^- "« "»-* J^i" ^r. Emard: By Mr. Douglas: Q. Allow me to ask about that break at the woollen mill Do vmi tKmi, fi,„f rear"ffirKliln'L'.' •^^r- ^•^^^^ 815,000?-A Wefl. if^aTa ?ery ugly Dreak. 1 hat break should have been repaired a year ago It was mnnin/itf/^ all aummer. You may know the terrible excavation I had a build^^^ Z^. "^„ ^?'! quti :?Tb.T"^ ""^ '"^' '"°'""' "• ""■« '''°' "»"" '^' twHeoWn "i: Q. How is that consistent with good management ?— A. I will tell von Th- government knew nothing about the break being there urtl a 7ear iSoTut T «r! '^IZhi ?**,?u' P'-op^^toi- or hie employees k?ew there vvas aTeaKere a vea^ J^iuJ '?°"^^ ''*'?. K" '■"P«^''«^' «°^ «« '* ^«"ld have been ?f that man had kent ap.eof stones.apilo of sand and 30 barrels of cement as I keeD^UthetiZ That could have been repaired any Sunday. P "*® *""* And further deponent saith not. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 269 Mr. LESAGE was called and sworn. By Mr. Douglas ; . Q. Look at that bill of timber and see whether you have a copy of it in your office. That is the bill of timber on which Mr. Kennedy asked for tenders. Have you a copy of instructions to Mr. Kennedy to issue that bill ?— A. Mr. Lesaee pro- mised to look for the copy. Q. Before the letter to Mr. Kennedy, was there any special letter about this bridge?— A. The witness read letter of 13th December, 1892, from Mr. Sehreiber chief engineer, to Mr. Parent, filed as exhibit E. 1. ' Q. On that letter did you receive tenders for this lumber ?— A. Yes. Q. Who made out exhibit C. 16 ?— A. Young Mr. Trudeau, one of the clerks of this office, made that out. In fact he had the making out of all the abstracts in con- nection with tenders. On getting this letter, the following instructions, dated 16th of December, 1892, and signed by E. H. Parent, filed as exhibit B. 2, were sent to Mr. Kennedy and all the other superintendents. Q. Have you got any more correspondence ?— A. I have this letter from Mr Parent to Mr. Kennedy, of the 16th December, 1892, a copy of which will be filed as exhibit E. 3. There is also a letter, exhibit E. 4, from Mr. Parent to T. J. Des- barats, dated 21st of January, 1892. I have a letter from Mr. Kennedy to Parent to be filed as exhibit E. 5, dated Ith January, 1898 ; also letter from Mr. Sehreiber to Mr. Parent, of 18th January, 1893, to be filed as exhibit E. 6 ; also from Mr. Sehreiber to Mr. Parent, referred to in exhibit B. 6, and to be filed as exhibit B. 7. Exhibit E. 7 contains two letters, both of the 18th of January, 1893, from Mr. Sehreiber to Mr. Parent. The commission took recess at 1 p. m. E. J. DuooAN, Stenographer. \ I J Afternoon Session (June 13). Mr. Atwater. — Complaints have been made in the press that the men employed by the government on this work during the month of April have not received their pay. I have been informed at the office here that the pay-lists for April only came into the department on the 2nd day of June. I asked leave to call the proper offi- cial of the department to prove that the government was not to blame for any delay in paying the men for their April work. Mr. Archibald. — I support the suggestion. Mr. McLeod. — We will take any evidence you have to oflfer ou the matter. L. A. LESAGE, Secretary and Accountant of the Office of Eailways and Canals, Montreal, was re-called. By Mr. Atwater : Q- In your j^osition, do you receive the pay sheets of the workmen from month to inonth ? — A. a he pay sbeets and accouats arc rendered to me by the superiiiteud- ing engineer, Mr. Parent ; I transmit them to Ottawa, and the authorities at Ottawa send down the cheques for the payment of the men. Q. They are made up eveiy month ?— A. Yes. 270 "e get chom cerlllied and tbev ai-e .„„, Sjj V" '^'"' ^ 2'"> "f oMh month anS ^^^ Q. The pa, ,hee,. re. MV:ol°l^„titLrthri*.°^„i'lS''°J7f„„Tt _^Q^aa the pay .he.t.f„,. Ap,i, ate„, .^, „.o,.,adefM.,> theusaa, co„„e,' Q. And that par list onlrPAmT;; ^^^ ^^^^ amounted to «5.644 40 Q. Yoa certified that nav-lisf ?-1a T«k * Kennedy, and afterwards bvthflBi,««r,„7* i- paj-I'st was certified to bv Mr ^ Q. It comes to you difectlv fmm i h'"'^'"^ "-"^'"T'" '^'"^^'f- from him. "^ *"'*°"y ^'"™ ^-^^e Huperintending engineer ?_A. Directly ^^^^^^^^^^ ^o Ottawa P- A. I sent them on the -^ly%Pn:i:^lT:V^^^^ paid?-A. Wegener. The pay list corner in in duplicate. "^ ' ^® g«n«rally pay about the 15th. Sy Mr. Louglas: i|?-l" Th':.Ta,?e°;i^Jf:;r,d'„'^;\\^^^^^^^^ "> -"« "P *e net e„ the 3rt 284 names. Anrl if .„«."iy. ,^': ^,^. ".°* have been made ud in fwn ,io,r. {pjjg™ am re- are 284 names, and it SouKkJ about thiec"dL«T" '"f «."P >" two days, fernng to the April pay-list ^'^ "^^-^^ ^'^ "«^« '* accurately. I am re- youSvItdXrcrunfrrVes ""'^'''^ '^"■«^°- to get these men paid since BupeSrdrgVngCf "'^ '""^ ^^- P--*?-A. They came directly from the By Mr. Archibald : Q. That pay-list was signed by Mr Kennedy? A v Q. Bo you know on wHat ,\«tL ul ^^""eay/— A. Yes. the IMh of V '""' "'•« '"' "•» •"«P«»'i«l ?-A. He wae .wpended on io«o''fdtz:Lf,°x'rr,;et3"t^oW.™ 's^,S^l;^";r^*■ "»."« »«»«- Itwa^hpot^KXltoSrSr'-"- ^'"^ "-k"P«.-,«. B.,„a,<,. _^_.|^A<-te.. the ,3th Ma,.M,..BaaUi,g.,.,n„.„nde,th,»n.r„,„,.M,,j,e„n«„, By Mr. Douglas : Q. Who sent that pav^ist to Mr ir«nn<.ri ♦ • o ^'^^ n ^ ^ "^" ^~^- ^* ''- -"t ^row this by M^: Ken^edj? '* ''"^ '""^ ^'^'^ ««- ?~A. On the 3rd June. By Mr. Atwater : It came in signed 8- ^^Tj't'Y''^ it'to make it up ?^a. Of t.h. „•„„ ,.._ _ . Tr„ ''^j^"'""""'" °*^® ^ai^w up that nav,«hflo< anH 7k "V"^=-f^F=J", ar. ianiiiawi^. Kenned,.. a„„a.„„,_A. The'i.he '^o.Sl.TlJttr^.&tt':',^^^^. 271 of it was when it was brought here on the '' . received it for the first time on the 2nd June. Q. The first the department morning of the 3rd of June?— A. By Mr. Douglas : hous??^i**THi'' ^]^l "«^«;^««P«'' do with it; Did he leave it at Mr. Kennedy's house ?-A. I do not know I cannot answer for the time-keeper. Wo received the Ft &*r.?'.?'^ f ""'• ^^ ^'*'"* '°t« t^'« «ffl«« first to be checked, and we wve backtglt TAT.^' "'«' ^'"^ '^ ««* '' P-P-y --"fi^d. and wrgSit A.~YeJ' """"^ '"**' this office first, and you sent it to Mr. Kennedy to be signed?- By Mr Archibald : Q. Was it signed by Mr. Kennedy when it came in to be checked ?— A. No, And further deponent saith not. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. as foSows ^^^^^ *«*'" appeared and desiied to make a correction in his evidence 9fith^' ^»''o?a».tfae acting superintendent engineer, wrote to Mr. Kennedy on the 26th May. asking for the pay list to be sent in that vet^y day, becaus^ he did not San? any delay to occur. ( Witnete reads a letter from Mr. Marceau.) Mr. AECHiBALD.-On behalf of Mr. Kennedy, I simply state this • that M,- Su^rf*^' ^^J^. -V'^P^^^ion on the 13th Mav, ^onceiverhrhad ni right^'f ^ly Jf ^"^ no right, to sign any document whatever respecting the can"! and^he fn th«l*°Jt^° • r " •'^ r^'^*^ «"°*^ instructions from person! having authorit! m the department to give them, saying that he was to sign for that month ^ The commission adjourned till to-mon-ow. S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. 272 Montreal, 2l8t June, 1893. Tho commission met at 10 oViock a.m. Present— Messrs. McLeod, Douglas and Vanier. L. A. LESAGE, previously sworn, re-called and deposed as follows:— Hi n' the conf ract labour on the and there were four tenders By Mr. Atwater : Q. Were tenders asked for by the department bridges and the masonry of lock no. 1?— A. Yes received at this ofSce. ' Q. Who were they from?— A. From Turner & Co., Emanuel St. Louis. Trottier and J. D. Rose. ' Q. Which was the lowest of these tenders?— A. The lowest was Mr. St Louis 1 have here a copy of an abstract of these different tenders, which shows that the tender of Mr. Turner for the Wellington bridge was as follows : 45 cents an hour tor day work, for foremen, and 65 cents for overtime. For stonecutters, 35 cents an hour, and 50 cents overtime. Stonp—fters and masons, 36 cents an hour and 50 cents overtime. For skilled labou .1 ' ants an hour ; for double teams, 50 cenls an hour; for single teams, no quotat. • > fVir lock no. 1: Foremen, 40 cents and 65 cents; stonecutters, 32^ and 47^ ;!'., stonecutters and masons, 32* cents and 45 cents; skilled labour, 20 cents; (imh,is*t^tAms, 50 cents; no quotation for single teams. Mr. Kosos tender for the WellinteT.' bridge was as follows: For foremen, 48 cents and 7-i cents for overtime; for stonecuUei-s, 39 cents and 55 cents ; stonecutters and naasons, 38 cents and 54 cents; skilled labour, 21 and 25 cents; no quotations ibr the others. No quotations for lock no. 1. Mr. Trottier's tender for Wellington bridge was as follows:- For foremen, 45 an.d 70 cents ; stonecutters, 32 and 80 cents : stonecutters and masons, 35 and 49 cents; skilled labour, 20 and 22 cents- no quotations for the others. In all cases the tenders for Sunday labour was for double charge, about twice. Q. So Mr. St. Louis' tender was considerably lower than the others?— A It was. Q. And is this skilled labour that is tendered for there at the rate of 18* cents an hour for day work ?— A. It is skilled labour. Q. That is a different thing from ordinary labour?— A. It is; ordinary labour was returned at 81.50, or 15 cents an hour; that is, a good pick and shovel labourer. By Mr. Archibald : Q. How did you happen to call for tenders for the labour ?- mean by that question ? Q. Why did your office invite tenders for the supply of labour?— A. It was the order; it was in conformity with instructions received from the department Q. Will you produce the letter of in; ■ ruction ?— A. I do not know ; at anv rate it was called for. "^ Q. J want to know whether you are in possession of any instructions from the department of railways and canals directing you to call for tenders for the supply of labour for the bridges in question, and, if so, to produce those instructions ?— A I do not think we have a letter, Q. I want you to search and see?— A. I search, but I do not believe there is an order. -A. What do you 273 labofn '^'^«''*»-^ ^^ »"* •^"«^ "hether ther. i, any inntruotion calling for Mr. Abchibald.-— It is an unuuual thinif to call for tfln(l«r« ft,- uk. ^y Vr. Fanjer; judg?i.'i"h/™attr''"*^'''^*P'*"" ^"- '«'• '»^°«'' '" Montroal?-A. I am not u VHga?t. ^•■"'" ^""'" «P*"*'«°<'« '«» the office here?-A. a do not appear extra- Q. !•< that your own opinion?— A. That is mv own i/,n. ^f„ r judge in the matter. ^. xuac is my own . ..ion; of course, I am no J9i^ Mr. Atwater : g«d, but ,„ .he C.S, of ,.bo„,. a. nigh. i. h« been curor.t;Er;;.t'mtrd»S Q. That is. yon paid doable time for niirht labour '—A Jt h«a k„-.„ «„ * m the night, we give him ten hours. ^.upposing a man worked hike hours Q. These contra, f prices are one-half more for night work ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Emard : day isei.'^jr .trdo°„',,ftv:r.'i„''r.t„^ foremen it Uono-third more, For .toneoatte™, I «S L ibiZ 32 i.„,. ?„°°r "' work, aad 46 cent, for night, there i, a dilferenoe " one.?S? f Llfa Abnit o'^' mi™?Kg'KrrS"""' '"" °""'-' '^"'"•^ '•'»'■■• '• etlbTJr'tea^'prrt Q. So that his prices are considerably lesH than wKof tUo, „^ corporation are paying for night time '^-l t^lX^I^^liilZr''' "' ^""^ Q. JMow, IS It not to your knowledge that Mr. St Louis h«R hart t^ r^n ♦• S:,rinT,lToJ^"e:Lrr^. it m^ p-^^nSS aaTa-dHjtt?"' ^°""" -• -" '»«««" i'."1o"rrtXrn o W?f„f*- ®^t ""'^ '"*''®/h*° !?"« case ?-That is all I remember just now §• r^^^rJ^f r™rI5! .^--- ^A- I do not.remember.'^"* "^"' 5y Jlfr. McLeod : for .?yS.£„Ko'rk?"Vi'i:rf noT&reTi'Zi'r """""M- ""' -»' that ».,e. We paid donble time'L-'meT^ SeJ rraoSS.r.tli'-g:.:: IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) & fe ^/ A .<^> ,5.* if fc 1.0 I.I 14^ I5J ■It Itt |2£ 1*0 125 iu 2.2 1.6 ISOmm t« ., V % ^} / /. w V /APPLIED J IIVMGE . Inc .a= 1653 East Main Street j:s '- Rochester, NY 14609 USA 1^='^ Phone: 716/482-0300 .sss:s=s. Fax: 716/288-59B9 1993, Applied Image, Inc., All Rights Reserved # i-\ SS o v\ ^ W^ & S74 being oarried away for instance; then when the men were working at night and in a special case, we paid double time. By Mr. Douglas : Q. You did not pay doable time , but you paid doubb hours.— A. Double hours at the regular rate. And further deponent saith not. S. A. AbbotTj Stenographer. ^ Mr. LESAGE, examination resumed. By Mr Atwater : Q. You were asked this morning with re gard to instructions being received as to calling for tenders for the labour on the bridge. Can you find any such written instructions ? — A. I have searched and find no written instructions. Q. To whom would these instructions be given ? — A. Likely to Mr. Parent, the superintending engineer. Q. Who sent out the letters or specification asking for tenders ? — A. According to the letters of record here in the omue, tenders were asked for this labour by Mr. Kennedy, and some also by Mr. Parent. Q. Is this letter, dated 20th of December, 1892, from Mr. Kennedy to Mr. Parent, the only letter you have ? — A. Yes. Q, Is this the letter you refer to ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Douglas : Q. Where were the various tenders opened ?— A. Some were opened by the superintendent and some by Mr. Parent. The tenders for the labour were opened by Mr. Parent. Q. Were there any tenders for lumber supplies? — A. No ; I do not believe they were received in this office. Q. Was there any date when tenders were ordered to come in here to this office unopened — tenders which the superintendent called for? — A. There were instruc- tions to send tenders to this office. Q. Sealed tendei-s or opened tenders ? — A. The tenders received at this office for the labour were the only tenders that I know of. The tenders for hardware also were opened in this office. Q. Make out a list of tenders opened in this office and sent to this office, sealed or sent to Ottawa, and a list of those opened by Mr. Kennedy. Had Mr. Kennedy instructions to call for tenders, open them and send them outside of this office? — A. I would like to consult the books before giving an answer. By Mr. Atwater : ' Q. Such instructions would be in writing ? — A. Yes. Q. You had tenders from Messrs. Trottier and Eose ?— A. Yes. <4. Who sent out the invitation to them for tender? — A. Mr. Parent. There was a circular sent to these parties. There were only two tenders received at the office for the labor. Q. Which were they? — A. W. J. Tu ; jr k Co., and E. St. Louio. Q. He mentions in this letter just read, Cousineau's and Lyall's?— A. I have not seen them. t r n n 01 ighl and in le hours at rapher. received as oh written Parent, the According our by Mr. Mr. Parent, led by the ) opened by )elieve they o this office ire instruo- this office rdware also Bee, sealed r. Kennedy office?— A. snt. There ived at the -A. I liave •- k 275 Q. That letter was sent to Mr. Parent and received by him ?— A Yes Q. He would be the first to open it?— A Yes J' ' ' a, les. Q. In the ordinary course of office business it would be passed to you ?_A Yes Q. So that you would only sec it after it reached Mr. Parent ?-A Yes. By Mr. Vanier : y. Ami you added other names afterwards?— A. Mr. Parent did. By Mr. Archibald: Knn?^?^ V^® '^"^'" ""S ^¥ 20lh of I>ecomber, now produced. I find that Mr y. Have you any information beyond the letter?— A No y. bo far as you judge from the document now produced Mr Kennedy's renii««f for tenders was for stonecutters and masons ?-A Yes i^ennedy s i equest December -'V ml? *''f/'''''''''"f."''*?'^^^*'^''- ^enned/s letter of the 20th of .^!.?!^ • ^'^* '"*" y^"*" attention to the fact that these invitations were ^sued previous to my receiving your letter together with copy of he Denn v Q. With regai-d to the contract for lumber, are you aware that Mr HfinHA- not 1 eceived here at office. I behove an abstract was sent in by Mr. Kennedy. By Mr. Douglas: Q. Is this the abstract, exhibit C 16?— A could give j'ou more information. Q. Who is Mr. Trudeau ?-A. Ho is clerk in this office departmenfat^Ottria? A '^TVrlf ■; T' '" ^"'*^«' '^"^ ^«« «««fl'™«d by the chfefengTneei That abstract was approved by the minister and the Q. And the contract awarded to Mr. Henderson ?— A. Yes. By Mr. Atwater; the H^«t!i.^r' 4 "7 "'*'^'^'' ^^^ .**"**«'■« ^«'' *h'« •«™ber went to Ottawa or merely the abst. act f-A. I am under the impression it was the abstract alone. ' ^ reme^mb?.-1,atVel'tt:m. ""' "' ''^ ^"^'^" ''' '''' lumber ?-A. I do not Q. As secretary, would it be your duty to see them?— A Naturally Th«,T may have come to the office, but I have not seen them. J>'aturally. They ■J. I niM nr\r\%r la in AJT-,* m i *_ •<• ^ . __ Mr. Trudeau made that abstract and Yes, he was clerk, and was at tendei-s called for. . This copy 18 in Mr. Trudeau's writing?_A making all the abstracts in connection with the differ By Mr. Archibald: (hilt ^\R"b T-** ^/ "5^® J*"® abstract without the tender ?-A. He will tell von 276 other, and he aaid that he spoke to me about it and that I wanted him to take notoe. I want to correct that statement. 1 lomomber his coming into fthe office one day and speaking about being asked to tiansfer time from one sheet to the other. I told him that, as time-keeper, he was strictly responsible for his time-book, and not to change It, and that if he signed pay-sheets wliich he knew not to be correct, he would be held responsible. That is all I said to Mr. Baillairg^. I did not put him on his guard for future reference or to use that in the fi-tuie, I told him he was responsible for his time-books and not to alter them, and that if he signed the pay-lists afterwards, he would do so knowingly and would be i-f^sponsible. Therefore if he signed pay-lists which were not correct, he would be responsible. Q. He said you told him to take notes and look out?— A. If he said that I told him to take notes and be on the look out, he made n mistake. Mr. Archibald. — Several witneBses have given evidence concerning the time- sheets atd time-books, and books containing descriptions of the materials which books were left in the wharfinger's offl.;e by them. These books are not produced. 1 have asked for them repeatedly and they have not been produced. They are books of the highest importance to the prosecution of the inquiiy. I would like to find out where those books are gone, and I would sug^^est that the commission ought to call for all persons that may be supposed to know something about that and ascertain if possible, what has become of these books. ' Mr. Atwatee.— As Mr. Kennedy was superintendant, those books were all in his possession and under his control, and we cannot find them now. Mr. Archibald.— They were in the wharfinger's office where the witness swore they weio left. Mr. Douglas.— Not all of them. The last witness swore he left them with Mr ei's. Mr. Archibald.— That is the same thing. Mr. Atwater.— Not at all. Mr. Archibald. — You will find that out. Mr. pouQLAs.— He cannot find that out. I tried, before the commission wa* appointed at all, to find them and could not. The superintendent of the can-- i been trying to get them for the last three weeks and cannot. E. J. DuooAN, Stenographer. * ^ 3Ib. LESAGE, re-exhminod. I produce the letter called for of 9th of December, 1892, from Mr. Parent to Henderson Brothers, as follows : — '' Sib,— I am by direction to inform you that your tender for timber and lumber has been excepted by the minister of railways and canals." By Mr. Archibald : Q. Did you see tha signature or the initials of the chief engineer approving of the tender of Mr. Heudeibon for the lumber?— A. I saw the copy here but did not see the original. Q. That is a copy prepared in this office ?— A. Yes. Q. So that the original is the same ?— A. Yes, we have instructions to return the original to the department. n u Q- Then, Henderson's tbuder was approved by the chief engineer before the 9th ot December?- A. Yes, it was approved on the 6th of December. Q. So that when the chief enirinAni*, Mr ctohroittAr wpUas nn ♦»,-» oq.vi ^rTVs--_ !.■>- tana 4. »j- fi J. t . "^ . . 7'"«V. ' ■ *'"^ mOVQ vi jJcCcHl- oer, ia*>2, to Mr. Parent a letter containing the following clause : " I am still more surprised that you should allow such a circular to be sent out as the one recently I 277 idsued by Iho superintendent (K-innedy) for tenders which specify neither the lenL'th Zfil.ifJ"th'K**^'^' material (timber)," he had already Lme\;owiell^sborore confirmed that tender and ordered a contract in accordance with it. Is not that so ? By Mr. Douglas ; Q. You mu«t remember that Mr.Schreiber only initialled the tender for 814 000 and a tender for 86,000 only for spruce and spruce-'deaU and cull deals instead of orcoScKo"^"^' ' """"' ""' ''' -rrespondence and you can draw your Q. The correspondence says he has?-A. You can draw your own conclusions. ««K Q- J^n«'"v«^t'onforatonder referred to in the letter just quoted from Mr Schmberie the first document on C 15 ?-A. I never saw that in the office here By Mr. Archibald : ^f.,^'^^y'i^^'^?'^y'^f^^^r the chief engineer, Mr.Schreiber, received or knew «ri til ^2 1 '"^'tat'on for tender or who sent it out at the time that he accept- Z t\ SvrM"r/Sdb^trit' ''"^" "'"" '"^ '''''^'' ««"* '^ '""^^-^^ the MonteLl office y-A.^Yr. '" """• ^''"''"" "''^ ''° "''''''''' '''''' ^^^'^''''^ ^'-- Decidtdf"*^ ^'" ^''''^®'''®'" '"i''""®^' ^ accepted tU> lowest from that abstract?— A. Q. And you have no reason to believe he was aware whether .AEr. Kennedy or Mr. Parent, or who eent out the invitation to tender, at the time he accepted ?--A. Q. 1 think you said this invitation to tender never came into this office '—A As tar as 1 can remember, it was never received here. I never saw it before until I ' 8ft w It lo^nfly. Q. Where did this invitation come from?— A. It was found in my presence by Mr. Marceau, the actmg supermtending engineer, in Mr. Kennedy's office at lock Q. It was found by Mr. Marceau in your presence for the first time when ?— A some time last month. of M?' ^^^^^ ^^' ^^^""^'•^''^ suspension?— A. Yes, it was between the 13th and 20th «hn„Jl'nd"f^'K'^^°*~!.P™P'''^ *.*? P".' '" "^"""S »"^ fyle what information I should like to have t^o far as my client is concerned, namely — Ist. The measurement and amount of each class of work actually done at the L-urraii bridge; 2nd, the amount of such work done on the Grand Trunk bridee- drd, the amount and description of the wood called for and used in theOurran bridee and a like statement with regard to the Grand Trunk bridge, the two last to include !^«f,"?T''^ J ^^^^A "^^u^ connected with each bridge; 4th, a comparison of the amount of wood used, with the accounts of the wood contracted for; 5th, a statement showing the total cost of the Curran bridge and of the Grand Trunk bridge ^m, ^li r„?**^''*T'''*'"* "', P'f r^ ^-"'^ ^°''^- ^^y^'^ ^^«°t « g'«at PO'-t'on of that, you will have to ask your client for it. » i , Mr. Archibald.— If you are of any use to the country, you can find out. Mr. DouQLAS.— We cannot find out what temporary bridges and platforms have been made and demolished, the amount of timber, the measurements and costs. We know nothing about It. The engineer has nothing to do with it. Mr. Kennedy was superintendent and had full control, and he says ho would not allow any interference on the part of the engineer. Mr. Archibald.— Call him and examine him. Mr. DocoLAs.— Mr. Kennedy will be called. The commission adjourned until 4 p.m. 278 L. /, LESAGE, recalled. Sy Mr. Bmard : the Grand Trunk bridg^e ^ ''*" employed on the Wellington bridge tmd Conn?il7«'n?wK™Zbin:r'ro^r^^^^^^ .^/'^g«?-A. Mr. Martin «5, and Conolly $4. John %an ^s Sn the wlZlT '"l??."' ^^'°'^'' ^»« P^'d Qu.n an was on the Wellington brSge and was^Ji^ ff" p'""^^^' *'"* ""^ P«'d ««• Wellington bridge and w^ paid «5 H„T ff k ^ ' ^®^5'*™ ^'^ «'80 on the measurers and he%a8pai(|T5^ "^"^^ ^"'^^^^ ^»8 foreman of the stone •5. WillS;\rn'/;i'';#^^^ He got «4. and he paid him is Alphonse/he was I'^l^A^t:^^^^^^ Ves. And further deponent<^ot. ' ^ His first name S. A. Abbott, Stenographer. '^i^. t'W^ fiir^ V^^;-'f ^#:#-fl j .,:: H ' % ^