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Ordered, That a Select (.'onimittcc be nppointed "to consider the State of those British Possessions in North America which are under the Aclniinistration of the Hudson's Bay Company, or over which they possess a License to Trade." Veneris, 13" die Fcbruani, 1857. Ordered, That sucli Cominittce do consist of Nineteen Members. Committee nominated accordingly, as follows ; — Mr. Laboucliere. Sir John Pakington. Lord John Busscll. Mr. Gladstone. Lord Stanley. Mr. Roebuck. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Lowe. Viscount Sandon. Ordered, Tuat the Comraittee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. Ordered, Tuat Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Mr.^ Grogan. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Bell. Lunce, 9° die Martii, 1857. Ordered, That the Comraittee have power to Report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them to The House. SECOND SESSION, 1857. Veneris, 8° die Maii, 1857. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed " to.considcr the State of those Britisli Possessions in North America which are under the Administration of the Hudson's Bay Company, or over which they possess a License to Trade." Martis, 12° die Maii, 1857- Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Nineteen Members. Committee nominated accordingly : — Mr. Secretary Labouchure. Sir John Pakington. Lord John Russell. Lord Stanley. Mr. E Monday, at Twelve. Lunoi, 23" die Februarii, 1857. members present : Mr. Labouchere in the Chair. Colonel Herbert. Mr. Bell. Mr. Grog.in. Sir John Pakington. Lord trtanley. Lord John llussell. Mr. E. Eliice. Mr. Gregson. Viscount Sandon. Mr. Guriicy. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Mr. Kinnaird. The Committee examined Colonel Lefroy, Dr. Eae. [Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve. 884. 260— Sess. 2. 33 Tl PKOCEBDINOS OP THE SELECT COMMITTEE Jovis, 26* die Februarii, 1897. I MEMBERS PBE8ENT : Mr. Labouohere in tho Chair. Mr. Gumejr. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bell. Mr. Grouan. Colonel Herbert. Mr. E. P:ilioe. Mr. Gurney. The Committee examined Sir George Simpson. Mr. GrcMon. Mr. Goraon. Vigcoiint Sandon. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Blackburn. Mr, Itoebuck. [Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve. Luna, 2° die Martii, 1867. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Labocchbre in the Chair. Mr. Bell. Mr. Gropan. Mr. liocbuck. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Gordon. Colonel Herbert. Mr. GrefTson. Mr. E. EUice. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Kinnaird. Lord Stanley. Lord John Russell Mr. Adilerley. Mr. Bliickburu. Mr. Lowe. Lord Sandon. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Mr. Gladstone. Tlie Committee continued the examination of Sir George Simpson, and examined Mr. Keriiaghan. [Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve. Jovis, 5* die Martii, 1857. Mr. E. Ellice. Mr. Gre<;son. Colonel Herbert. Mr. Gordon. Lord Sundoa. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Grogan. members present: Mr. Laboucbere in the Chair. Mr. BelL Mr. Adderley. Mr. Fitzwilham. Mr. Lowe. Lord John RusselL Lord Stanley. Mr. Roebuck. The Committen examined Mr. Kernaghun ; Mr. Fitzwilliam, a Member of the Committee ; Mr. [shifter, and the Rev. (J. O. Corbett. [Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve, ON THE HUDSON'S BAV COMPANY. vii Luna, 0" die Mar Hi, 1857, MSMBBBB FBIBENT : Mr. Labouciikre in the Cluur. llr. BeU. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Ellice. Colonel Percy Herbert. Mr. Blaokbum. Mr. Gordon. Lord Sandon. Lord John Busa«ll. The Committee deliberated on their course of proceeding, and, Retoloed, " That the Chairmun do report tu The House the Evidence taken up to this day, inclusive." The Committee examined the Rev. O. O. Corbett and Sir John Richardson, To report. SECOND SESSION, 1857. Veneris, 15« die Maii, 1867. MEMBERS PBE8ENT: Mr. Lab{.. ■eceate'y that the condition of. the whole of the vast regions which are under the adminis- tratiun of the Company tthoiiU be carefully conoidered ; but there are other cireumataaoes which, in the opinion of Ycwir Committee, would have rendered such a course the duty of the Parlianieni and Government of this country. " Among these. Your Committee would specially enumerate, — the growing desire of our Canadian tellow-8u^jccts that the means of extension and regular settlement should be aftbrdcd to them over a portion of this territory ; the necessity of providing suitably for the admhuitraiion of the affitirs of VaiKu>uver'8 Island, and the present condition of the settle- ment which lian been fonnc-j on the Red River. •' Your Committee have received much valuable evidence on these and other subjects connected with the inquiry which has been entrusted to them, and especiany have had the advantage of hearing the statements of Chief Justice Draper, who was commissioned by the Province of Car ".da to attend the Committee on behalf of that important colony, whose interests and feelings are entitled to the greatest weight on this occasion. " Your Committee have also had the opinion of the law officers of the Crown communi- cated to the n on various points connectca witli the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company. " The territory over which the Company now exercise righto ia of three descriptions : — 1st. The land held by charter, or Rupert's Land. 2d. The land held by license, or the Indian Territory. 3d. Vancouver's Island. " For the nature of the tenure by which these countries are severally connected with the Company, Your Committee would refer to the evidence they have received and the docu- ments api>ended to their Report " With rcgai'd to Rupert's Land, which is held by charter, it might be very desirable to ascertain precisely what is the force of the powers claimed and exercised under it, and of the extent of the country over which those powers exist. But irom the experience of a long series of years, during which there has been, from time to time, much controversy on these questions, as well a« from the tenor of the opinions which they have received from the law oiKccrs of the Crown, y^ur Committee aro apprehensive that there may be great difficulty and delay in arriving bv the ordinary forms of law, at any certain conclusions upon them. "On the other hand, prompt measures are very dcbirable; and Your Committee hope that it may be found practicable to effect such arrangements as are required for the satisfao tiou and benefit of those concerned, without waiting for the result of proceedings of so doubtful and dilatory a character as may appertain to the complete investigation of this ancient charter. "The law officers, however, suggest a course by which, with the united consent of Canada and the Com|)uny, the question of the actual boundary, which appears at present to be in a state of uncertainty in some respects, may be determined throtigh the inrti-u- mentality of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; and Your Committee have been assured by the Hudson's Bay Company, in a letter which is ap|)ended tc this Report, that they are willing to accede to this ]iro]iosal. In the event of this course being adopted, it is impossible for Your Committee now to form an opinion how far the award given b}^ the Judicial Committee may modify the recommendations which it will subsequently be the duty of Your Committee to make, by circumscribing the extent of country to which those recommendations may apply. " Your Committee entertain the strongest conviction that the Crown and peoiilc of this country can have no t)ther interest in the territory now administered by the Company, except that it should be dealt with in whatever manner is most conducive to the prosperity and contentment of our North American iellow-subjects ; and especially in the mode which is best calculated to add to the strength of the great colony of Canada. It is on these principles alone tliat the recommendations of Your Committee will be founded, so far as is consistent with ettny, over that North-Western portion of British America which goes by the name of the Indian Territory, must expire, would alone make it necessary that the condition of the whole of the vast regions which are under the administration of the Company should je carefully considered ; but thcn^ are other circum- stances which, in the opinion of Your Committee, would have rendered such a course tho duty of the Parliament and Government of this country. " 2. Among these. Your Committee would especially enumerate the growing denire of our Canadian fellow- subjects, that the means of extension and regular settlement should be afforded to them over a portion of this territory ; t'.c necessity ofprovidlug suitably for the adminir ation of the affairs of Vancouver's Island, and the present condition of tlie settlement which has been formed on the Red River. " 3. Your Committee have obtained much valuable evidence on these and other subjects connected with the inquiry which has been entrusted to them ; and have had the advan- tage of hearing tlie stattiinents of Chief Justice Drai)er, who was commissioned by the Government of Canada to watch tliis inquiry. In addition to this. Your Committee have received the evidence taken before a Committee of the Legislative Assembly appointed to inveetigate this subject, containing much valuable information in reference tr> the interests nnd feelings of that important colony, which are entitled to the greatest weight on this " 4. Your Committee have also had the opinion of the law officers of the Crown com- municated to them on various [lointA connected with the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company. "3. The ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ziu " 5. Tho territory over which the Company now exercise rights is of three descrip- tions, — Ist. The land held by charter, or Rupert's Land. 2d. The land held by license, or the Indian Territory. .3d. Vancouver's Island. "■ 6. For the nature of the tenure by which these countries are severally connected with the Company, ''our Committee would refer to the evidence they have received, and the documen', ded to their Report. " 7. Witir r'gard to Rupert's Land, which is held by charter, it appears to Your Com- mittee very decirable to ascertain precisely the character and legality of the powers claimed and exercised under it, and the extent of the country over which these powers are in force. "8. Numerous allegations and much controversy on these questions have created a serious evil, arising from the impression, both in Canada and in the countries subject to the jurisdiction of the charter itself, that many of its provisions, if not altogether contrary to the laws of England, are of doubtful authority. " 9. The prevalence of such impressions, whether well founded or otherwise, cannot but be prejudicial not only to the authority of the Company, but to the peaceable and orderly frovernmcnt of those living under them ; and it appears to Your Committee necessary for tne Hatisfaction and benefit of those concerned, that the question of the validity of powers so anomalous and extensive, should be set at rest by the instrumentality of a competent legal tribunal. " 10. It has, however, been strongly urged upon Your Committee, in the course of their inquiry, that the question of the Imunclaries between Canada and the Hudson's Bay territories is of the must pressing importance at this moment, and one that should be determined as speedily as iMissible ; but it is obvious that in bringing this to a practical decision, the question of the validity of the charter presents itself as the first to be ."wcer- taincd. The definition of the limits of Canada must necessarily follow on the determina- tion of what is, or is not, within the jurisdiction of the Hudson's Bay Company. "11. Fending such an investigation, which Your Committee consider to be the first and indispensable step to any final arrangement, they forbear to express any opinion as to the course which should be ultimately pursued ; but, adverting to the willingness expressed by the Company to meet the desire oi the Canadian people to obtain land fit for cultivation, and the establishment of agricultural settlers. Your Committee think it right to express their opinion that, in any event, the country capable of settlement should be withdrawn from the jurisdiction ot the Hudson's Bay Company, whose objects and interests are admitted to be opposed to colonisation. " 12. Your Committee believe that the districts on the Red River, Saskatchewan, and the Mackenzie, hold out inducements to enterprising individuals, from Canada and from this country, for their early occupation, which ought, by every legitimate means, to be encouraged. The n\pid extension of settlement which had been going on in so remarkable a manner to the south of the American boundary line, renders it a matter of great import- ance to establish within our own territory a counterfwise favourable to British interests, and modeled upon British institutions. " 13. Your Committee would suggest that it be referred to Her Majesty's Government to consider, after conference with Canada and the Company, the 'oest means for drawing the line between those portions of the country which are or are not adapted for settlement ; and how the teiTitory susceptible of colonisation, and detached accordingly from the Company's jurisdiction, shimld be settled and governed under free institutions. Vi'p believethat some simple and inexpensive machinery co'.dd be devised, by the aid of which those district^*, whether ceded to Canada or erected into a separate colony, could be effec- tively administered. " 14. Your Committee think it best to content themselves with indicating the outlines of such a scheme, leaving it to the Government to consider its details more maturely, before the Bill is prepared which will be necessary to carry it into efl'ect. " 15. Your Coiumittoe are of opinion, that it will be proper to terminate the connexion of the Company witli Vancouver's Island, as soon as it can conveniently be done, as the best means of favouring the development of the great natural advantages of that inqwrtant island. " 16. Means should also be provided for the extension of the colony over every portion of the adjoining continent on which permanent settlement may be fouuil i)ractical)le, to the west of the Rocky Mountains. " 17. As to these extensive regions, whether in Rupert's Land or in the Indian Terri- tory, in which, for the present at least, there can be no prosjioct of i>ermanent settlement by the European race for any purpose except that of the fur-trade, the Connnittce would recommend that the i)rivilege of exclusive trade should be continued to the Hudson's Bay Company, and that such arrangement should henceforth rest on the basis of statute. The 324. 260— Sess. 2. l>3 " 18. Power aav PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE " 1€. Power, however, should be raMrvad to Her Majesty's Govemaoent to nutke grants within such territory for the purpose of mines or fisheries, but with due regard to the immunities and trade of the Company. " 19. Your Committee liave now specified the principal objects which thoy tliink it would be desirable to attain. " 20. How far the chai'tored rights clwmed by the HudiH>n's Bay Company may nrove an obstacle to so doing, tliey are not able with any certainty to say. If this difficulty could be solved, not by adverse litigation, but b^- amicable adjustment, such will be beat promoted by the Government alter communication with the Company, as well as with the Government of Canada, rather than by detailed suggestionH emanatiag from this Committee. " 21. Your Committee cannot doubt but that, when such grave interests are at stake, all the parties concerned will api)roach the subject in a spirit of conciliation and juetioe, and they therefore indulge a confident hope that the Gk>vemment will be enabled in the next Session of Parliament to present a Bill which shall lay the foundation of an equitable and satisfactory arrangement in the event, which we consider probable, of legiswtkui being found necessary for tliat purpose." Resolutions proposed by Mr. Gladitone read 1°, as follows : — " 1. That the country capable of colonisation should be withdrawn from the juriBdlction of the Hudson's Bay Company. " 2. That the country incapable of colonisation should remain within their jurisdiction. " 3. That power sliould be reserved to Her Majesty's Government to make grants within the said territory for the purposes of mines or fisheries, but with due regard to the immunities and trade of the Com])any. " 4. That such jurisdiction should rest henceforward upon the basis of statute. " 5. That the Committee have to refer to the following paragraph in the letter of the Chairman of the Hudson's Bay Company, dated \2 July : ' Assuming, however, •**••* the Comimny.' And the Commtttee consider this as aii expression of the willingness of the Company to accept in principle the arrangements above described. " 6. That it would accordingly, in the opinion of the Committee, be advisable that Her Majesty's Government should, after conference with Canada and the Company, fix upon the best means for drawing the line between the two descriptions of country above- mentioned. " 7. Tliat it be referred to Her Majesty "^ Government to consider how the land capable of colonisation, and detached accordingly from the jurisdiction of the Company, should be settled and governed under free institutions. " 8. Tluit the Conunittee see no objection in principle to an an'angement under which the actual surrender by the Company of the lands fit for colonisation might take place, only in proportion as it might be required for the purposes of early settlement. " 9. That the foregoing Resolutions are intended to a]>ply to the whole country, from east to west, now under the Hudson's Bay Coin]iany, whether held by charter, statute, or the Vancouver grtuit. " 10. That inasmuch as tlie Company has tendered concessions which may prove sui- ficient to meet the necessities of the case, the Committee lias come to no decision upon the question how far it may be, as some think, just and even necessary, or on the other hanro{)osed by Mr. Oladstonr be now read 2°, instead thereof" :— Question jiut, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of tlxc ques- tion." The Committee divided: Ayes, 7 Mr. Matheson. Mr. Oregson. Lord Saudon. Mr. Gurney. Lord John Russell. Sir J. Pakington. Mr. liowe. Noes, 7. Mr. Christy. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Roebuck. Mr. Fitz William. Colonel Herbert. Mr. Kimiaird. Lord Goderich. WhereniKin the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes. Main question put, and agreed to. Draft ON THE HUDSON'S; BAY COMPilNV. >^ ' ? xV Bmft Report propowd hj th« Chaimua read 8°, and considered psmgmpb by p«ragr«ih. Paragnqiha 1 and 2 read, and agreed to. , -J. Paragraph 3 read ; amendments were proposed and agreed to (Mr. Cliritty) ; paragrapfi, as amended, agreed to. Paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 read, and agreed to. . i ,- Paragraphs 7 and 8 read, and negatived. Paragraph 9 read. Question put, «* That thb paragraph stand part of Ae proposed Report" The Committee divided: Ayes, 5. Mr. Lowe. Lord John Russell. Mr. Gurney. Mr. G reason. Mr. Mathesun. Paragraph 10 read, and negatived'. li Noes, 9. Mr. Kinnaiid. Colonel Herbert. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Sir J. Ptekington. Mr. Roebuck. Mr. Gladstone. Lord SaAdoui Mr. Chriety. Lord' Goderich. Farafraph 11 read. [Adjonmed'to Monday next, at Ohe c(%Itoal. Lima, 27* dk Jkiii, JtNPT. HEHBEBS PBE8ENT: Mr. Labouchebe in the Chair. i", t Mr. Gregson. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Christy. Mr. Lowe. Lord Sandon. Mr. Matheson. Mr. Blackburn. Colonel Herbert Mr. Kinnairdi Sir J. Pakington. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Paragraph 1 1 farther considered, and amended. Paragraph 12 amended, incorporated with paragraph 11, and agreed to. Paragraph 13 read, and agreed to. Paragraphs 14 and 15 read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 16 read ; amendments made. Amendment proposed, line 7, to leave out the words, " 2*. The fatal effecta which they believe would infallibly result to the Indian popula- tion from a system of open competition in the fur trade, and the consequent intro- duction of spirits in a far greater degree tlian is the case at present" (Mr. Fitzwilliam) : — Question put, " That the words proiwsed to be left out stand part of the paragraph." The Committee divided : Draft Ayesj 9. Sir J. Pdkington. Mr. Lowe. Lord Sandon. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Matheson. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Herbert. 3a<|. 260 — Scss. 2. Noes, 2. Mr. Christy. Mr. Fitzwilliam. b4 Another XTI PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE Another unendment proposed, line 11, to leave out the words, " and 3°. The probability of the indiscriminate destruction of the fir-bearing animals in the course of a few years " (Mr. CArii^) :— Question put, " That the words proposed to bo left out stand part of the paragraph.' The Committee divided : Noes, 2. Mr. Christv. Mr. Fitzwilliain. Ayes, 9. Sir J. Pakington. Mr. Lowe. Lord Sandon. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Mixthesou. Mr. C 'y Mr. HtJi . lert Paragraph, as auienied, agreed to. Paragraph 17 reivd, and agreed to. Paragragh 18 read. Amendments made. Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " attain," I. 2, to the end of the paragraph, in order to iidd the words : " But it appear!* to Your Committee that unless the Hudson's Bay Company are willing to accept an <$ffer upon equitable arrangement, it is obvious that in bringing this to a practical decision, the question of the validity of the charter will then necessarify present itself to be forthwith accertained. " Pending the possibility of such an investigation, which Your Committee consider may be rendered indispensable to any final arrangement, they forbear to express any opinion as to the course which should be ultimately pursued. But, adverting to the willingness ex- pressed by the Hudson's Bay Company to meet the desire of the Canadian people to obtain land fit for cultivation, and the establishment of agricultural setUers, Your Committee think it right to express their opinion, that in any event, the country capable of settlement should be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Hudson's Bay Company, whose objects and interests are admitted to be opposed to colonisation " (Mr. Christy), instead thereof. Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph." The Committee divided : Ayes, 8. Mr. Matheson. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Gumey. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakington. Lord Sandon. Mr. BLuskbum. Paragraph 19 read, and agreed to. Noes, 2. Mr. Christv. Mr. Fitzwilliam. [Adjourned to Friday, at One. I ii! Veneris, 31* die JuRi, 1867. HBMBBBS present: Mr. Labouchebe in the Chair. Mr. Matheson. Mr. Christy. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Roebuck. Lord John BusselL Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakington. Lord Sandon. Colonel Herbert. Lord Goderich. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Mr. Qirittij produced a document purporting to be resolutions passed at a meeting held at the house of Mr. Philip Kennedy, in the R«d River Settlewent, on the 26th May 1857, and the same was read to the Committee. The Committee resumed the consideration of the Draft Report. Motion ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. XVII Motion made, and question propoeed, "That thio be the Beport to The House-" Question put. The Committee aivided : Ayes, 6. Colonel Herbert. Mr. Mnthcson. Lord John Riueell. Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakington. Lord Sandon. Noes, 5. Lord Goderich. Mr. Christy. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Roebuck. Mr. Fitzwilliam. Ordered, To Beport, together with the Minutes of Evidence. EXPENSES OF WITNESSES, Committees of 1st and Sd Sessions, 1867. Number of Expenses Allowanoe TOTAL NAME PROFESSION From Days 0* during Expenses of or Abwot from Home^ Joumoj to Absence AUowed WITNESS. CONDITION. whence Sommoned. under Orders of Committee. London ud back. from Home. to Witnea. £.,. d. £. f. d. £. .. 262 Luna, 15° die Junii, 1857. Richard Blanshard, Esq. - - p- 285 Lieut.-colonel William Caldwell - p. 298 Richard King, Esq., m.d. - - P- 312 Martis, 23° die Junii, 1857. James Tennant, Esq. - - - p. 320 Right Hon. Edward Ellice, m.p. - p. 322 Mr. Alexander Isbister - - - p- 353 [ ' ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Venerii, 20° die Februarii, 1857. 67. B. - p. 310 87. B, - p. 231 D. - p. 231 MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bell. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Charles Fitzwillinm. Mr, Gladstone. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Groijan, Mr. Ourney. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Labouchere. Mr. Lowe. Sir Jolin Pakingtoii. Mr. Roebuck. Lord John Hussell. Viscount Sundon. Lord Stanley. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, in the Chair. John Ross, Esq., called in ; and Examined. Chairman.'] I believe you are a Member of the Canadian Parliament ? — j. Pou, Eiq. How long have you belonged to that body ? — Since 1848. no February 1857, I. Yes. 2. 3. You were also, I think, a member of the Canadian Government for several years? -From 1851 until 18j6. 4. What situations did you hold ? — I was first Solicitor-general, subsequently Attorney-general, and afterwards Speaker of the Legislative ('ouncil. <;. You are aware of the objects for which this Committee has been appointed ? — Yes. 6. Has your attention ever been directed to the question of the atfairs of the Hudson's Bay Company, in so far as they aifect the interests of Canada? — Yes. I have thought very much upon the subject for several years. I do not profess to be intimately acquainted with the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Compnuy, but upon that branch of the subject with reference to how far it may affect Canada, I have thought a great deal. 7. You have never yourself, I believe, been in the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Only upon the borders of their territories. I have never been further westward than Lake Superior. 8. 1 think you are connected with a railway in Canada ? — Yes ; I am at the head of the trunk railway of Canada. 9. You have probably often considered the subject with reference to the importance of extending communications in British North America ? — I have thought very much of it. 1 0. Will you have tlie kindness to state to the Committee any views which you may have been led to entertain upon this subject? — The first subject, as it appears to me, which has been very much discussed (at all events it is now being dis- cussed in Canada), is the occupation of tiiat part of the North American Continent now under the control of the Hudson's Bay Company. It is very much discussed whether it is desirable that their privileges and control there should entirely cease. I have considered that subject very much, and the opinion that I express to the Committee of course I only give for wliat it is worth, and as my own opinion. I believe that when the subject is well discussed and presented to the 0.25. A Canadian ! 1 lii it I 8 MLNUTEh OF EVIDENCi: TAKEN BEIOUE THE ./. AuiA, Eiq. Cunadian public, it will then be considered somewhat in tlie li^^ht in which I view it. It is complnincd that the Hudson's Hay Company occupy that territory to F< bruary i8£7. and prevent the extension of settlement and civilisation in that part of the continent of America. I do not think they ought to be permitted to do that, but I think it would be a very great calamity if their control and power in that juut of America were entin-ly to cease. My ri'ason for forming tliiit opinion is tliis : During all the time that I have been able to observe their proceedings there, thirc has been peace within ihc whole territory. The operations of the Company seem to have been carried on at all events in such away as to prevent the Indian tribes within their borders from niolestinjir tlu ( anadian frontier; wiiile, on the other liand, those who have turned their attention to that quarter of the world must have seen that from Oregon to Florida, for these lu»t 30 years or more, there lias been a constant. Indian Mar going on between the natives of the American territory on the one side and the Indian tribes on the other. Now, I fear very much, that if the occupation of the Hudson's Bay Company, in what is called the Hudson's Hay Territory, were to cease, our fate in Canada might be just as it is with the Americans in the border settle- ments of their territtlng the spread of settlement in such territory as is adapted for settlement, and yet maintaining the authority of the Hudson's Bay Company in any portion of tiieir present dominions ? — I think the most desirable course, and the most convenient one, would be this: So fust as the Canadian Governtnent might wish to open up any part of the country for settlement, which they might upon exploration find it would be advantageous to open ; say that they desired to open ten, twenty, or fifty town- ships of land, I think the convenient course would lie to give notice to the Hudson's Hay Ct summer that the discussion tirst commenced upon the subject. The question of the opening; up of the territory has often for years been incidentally mooted, but a regular disi ussion of the question has never arisen until the course of the last summer, that I urn aware of. 17. Do you think that it some arrangement could be made, audi as that whicli you have desiribed, by which the Ked River Settlement, for instance, was tuken out of the control of the Hudson's Bay Company, it could bu con- veniently governed and administered from Canada, or that it would be neces- sary to have some form of local government?— I do not think that, Jit present, it could be conveniently governed or administered by the Citnadian (iovernment. There should either be a railway constructed from the west end of Lake Superior to the Red River Settlement, or a good broad open road cut out and made ; and land, such as might be fit for cultivation, laid oif on each »ide of it for settlers to occupy, and as the occupation took place, and settlers went in, it could be extended ; and in that way the Red River Siettlement could be connected with our present line^i of communication. 18. M ith regard to the country tnore to the north and north-east, do yon imagine that there is any extent of country now belonging to the Mudson's Bay Company on the frontier of Canada, which it is probable would be occu- pied lor settlement within a few yeiirs? — 1 think not; I do not think tliut in that direction there is any territory which could be occupiefl, or that it is |)ro- bable will be occupied. J know that the Hudson's Bay Company held within the Canadian boundary a section of country which was called the King's Posts. They lay up towards the Labrador border, along the gulf of the St. Lawrence, from below the Saguaney River. They surrendered those posts to the Canadian Government, and during the time that I was acting as Attorney-general in Canada they were again leased to the Hudson's Bay Company, it is not a country which can be occupied with any advantage, because I believe that the natives, and the people »ho are there connected with the Hudson's Bay posts, if the Hudson's Bay Company were not there to absist them during severe winters, would starve. 19. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you know anything about the territory round the Saguaney River?--! have been along the whole of the Saguaney River, navi- gated by steamers. 20. is not all the land at the Saguaney River very fertile ? — No ; I do not consider it is. 21. Do you remember M. La Terriere being there?— Yes, I know him very •well. 22 It was his opinion, I believe, that it was a very fertile territory ? — I may state for the information of the Committee what I know to be the fact. I have first of all been along tlie whole of the Saguaney River, during weather when I had an opportunity of obsi.Tving the shores on both sides. I iiave been at the leading milling establishments on the river. It very often liappens that when grain is sown there in the spring of the year, it does not ripen in the fall. That hag very often happened during these last few years ; almost every two years. The inhabitants living along the «-~"°"°-' i>;."^r i.ave suHered from that cause ; and Dr. La Terriere has himself been at the head of deputations making applications for assistance from the Government to keep the people from starving. I believe that there are now quite as many people along the banks of the Saguaney River as can be maintained. I am aware that the opinion which I am expressing here may, perhaps, hurt the feelings of some of the gentlemen who live in that part of the country, who would desire to have a large settlement near them ; but I must say, that I ilo not think it would be advantageous to the settlers, or for any other purpose, that an inci«ase in the number of inhabitants should take place there. 23. C/iairwan.] Has any inconvenience ever arisen from the circumstance of the hmits of Canada not being actually defined ?— No ; I think not. It is desirable that they should be ; but up to this moment, I do not know that there has been any inconvenience from that cause. 24. In point of fact, are they ascertained and defined very accurately to your 0.25. A 2 mind ? /. Most, Euj. 90 February liiT, MINUTES OF EVIDRNCK TAKEN BEFORE THE i 'i I ^1 J. Hun, R«q. mind ? — They nrv not ko iicciinitely deHnptl to my mind aa it deoirublo. I have • — never lu-cn aide to discover the diHtinct buimdariei. to Kibruiry 1857. 05. Doen that ohxervatioii apply only to the country to the west, or doet it apply to the whole circuit of the boundary of Canada r — It uppliea more to the country to the west. 2t}. The water-Hhed line in the recognised boundary to the north and north- east, iit it not r— That is taken to be the boundary. There Ih very often u dispute as to wlure that ii*. 27. Mr. Kinnuird.\ Are you not apprehensive that in that part of the terri- tory which comes in i.'ontact with the United States, there will be settleinei'its made by tlie Americiuis, and that there will be difficulty hereafter, unless the boundary is defined • — The Americans are extending; their settlements very rapidly towards the Red River, and it is very important that thai boundary should be distinctly marked, and ns soon as possible. 1'hat is my opLiuun with regard 10 that point. ■jS. Are any of them alreaily, do you think, coming over and settling on our territory ? — It is staled that numbers have crossed the boundary ; of course that can only be ascertained by drawing the lino. •ii). Lord Stanley.^ .At present the Red River Settlement is not open to traffic in any direction, except that traffic which comes by canoes.' — It is not. 30. Is there, in your judgment, any probability of a line of communication fit for traffic being established between the American settlements and the Red River?- 1 think it is tending to it very rapidly. 3 1 . Do you know what the distance \* from the nenrcMt inhabited point within the Unitetl' States ?— 1 should think it about 400 or 500 miles. 32. .Mr. Charles Fitznilliam.] Do not the lied River half-breeds contiuuaUy come down from the Red River Settlement to St. Paul's ?— Certainly they do. 3.'^. I think every summer tiiey come down ? — They do ; but thej have to cross a very large extent of territory on horseliack to do so. 34. Do they not come down in their carts ? — Yea, so I have been told ; but a gentleman with whom I am very well accjuainted, who recently crossed the country from St. Paul's to the Red River, and who was born there, informed me, I think, that it took him IG days to cross from the last settlement to the north of St. Paul's, to the first settlement as he approached the Red River. S,"). .Mr. Edward Ellice-'] You have never lieen there yourself, have you ? — No. 36. Chuiniian.] If a man wanted to go from this country to the Red River, what route would he take as the easiest r — By St. Paul's. 37. Lord Utaniev.] Through i' United States ? — Yes, 58. Mr. RwlwcH.] But if y.ur scheme of a railroad were carried into effect, he would go by that, woulr' 'le not ? — Must unquestionably ; I should be very glad to sec a railway made. 39. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] In what direction do you propose to run that rail- way from Canada to the Red River ; you alluded to the railways contemplated by Mr. Whitney and others ; do you know that that scheme of railways is in connexion with the Mine^ota scheme of railways runnini; up from St. Paul's ? — I do ; the railway that I should desire to see carried out would be one to connect with our own scheme of railways in Canada. 40. Are you at all aware of the practicability of a railway, except at a most enormous expense, from the head of Lake Superior, from the Canada frontier, to the Red River r — During the last 18 months an exp'oi-ation has taken place along the north shores of Lake Huron and a part of L...^. ? .irii /, and inland from the borders of both lakes al,. jg the valley runnin" v.e!>;< . •■ »• d. the repi •■ of the gentlemen who were instructed to make the s' v e; ,?► »aed the land to be very good, bearing verj* fine timber, and to be weu iiited for settlement; so that if we accomplished a connexion between the Canadian system of railways and the Red River country, it would be through the valley to the north of Lake ^ Juron and Lake Superior until we got round I^ke Superior. it. The v-ountry of which I am speaking lies to the west of what I under- si:. ' lo be the Canadian boimfiarj', taking the water-shed as the boundary; it s.JBi' 'lOut 5O1. or 600 aiiles Irom the extreme west end of Lake Superior, from the '!St cr.c wt>t I oundery of Canada to the Red River ; 1 suppose your atten- tion iias not been diricttx. to that country ?— The extension of a railway over that country is just that of which 1 have been speaking; you would only have to make a curve if you could find a valley and get out of it at the west end of Lake Superior upon this country which I have been mentioning. 42. Your 8KLECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COM FAN Y. 45. How far have you ({ot i\. do io ? — We hnve an Act of tli tion of a branch from a tuwit Quinty, an arm of Lake Ontai point to which the branch i>oeH 43. Voiir durveyoni hH%c not been throntth that country ?— No. /• iU««, E«|. 4j. Mr. Jioehuck.] W"(ie does your railway end? — It ia now very nearly - — - — ■ carried to liske Huron ; ihci'e in another railway connectln)( with it which ulao northerly I" I^ke Huron; that is the furthest , liv extending t lUt line you could get into the valley to the north of Laki* Huron, of which 1 have been speaking, and over which an extension to the Red Hlver might u, made. 46. You conlcniolate the extension of that railway to the north of Lake Huron and to the north ol Lake Superior? — Yes, when we can get s. ttlements and get it carried out. 47. The extension of the railway, I suppose, is dependent upon the settle- ment of the country ? — Very much, I think. S. Do you believe that a country can be settled which is retained f'u- hunting i'fOi'iid " — I do not. . > Then the hunting ground is incompatible with the settlement of the cou itry? — That is my own impression, merely speaking from my own notion of the matter, without being a practical hunter; we find, as n matter of fact, that the wild animals recede from the settlemeats. 50. Then the exclusive power of the Hudson's Bay Company over the country, as a fur- hunting company, is upposed to colonization ?— 1 think if the Hudson's liay Company asserted their power over any part of the country that is fit for cultivation, it would be an obstacle if they resisted the settlement of it. 51. In fact, then, the contemplated extension of the railway by vou is incom- patible with retaining the power now possessed by the Hudson's h .y Company ? — It would be so most certainly, if they resisted the giving up of any of the territory fit for the purposes of settlement. 52. That is to say, that so long as they retain their power over Uie country which can be settled, it will not be settled ? — 1 do not say that, 1 cause I do not know what they are willing to do ; I have had no conference with them, and I am not able to say whether they are willing to give up the count rv which is fit for settlement. 53. Uut it is 10 be supposed that a fur company promote the inti rests of a fur company ? — It would be reasonable to suppose so. ,54. Then those interests which are contemplated by the extensiu ] of the railway are opposed to the interests of that Company ? — As I tell you, tnat must depend entirely upon whether lliey would resist our carrying a railway hrough their country ; they might give up their rights there ; it may be that ttiere are not furs there now, or that they might think it more advantageous tn liave settlements which would atford them supplies, where they could get corn, grain, beef and pork more cheaply than they could bring them from abroad ; 1 ilo not know what their views are, for I have not conversed with any of the mernbers of the Company upon the subject. 55. Havcyou ever contemplated a scheme of colonization by t lie Can dian Government like to tiiat which is now pursued by the American Govurnmer. ? — I have never contemplated it in any other way than I indicated, 1 tiiink, i. my second or third answer to Mr. Labouehere; which is, that so fast as any pa;t of the country adjacent to the settled parts of Canada is required for purpost s of settlement, 1 think we ought to have the power of settling it, and I think tliat the H udson's Day Coinpairy ought to be required to give it to us. 56. I suppose you are perfectly familiar with the system of colonization on the part of the Unittd States under the Ordinance ot 1783?— Yes, 1 think I kn )w the whole of th»? system as it is pursued. .57. Haeyou ever contemplated the propriety of giving that power to the colo ml (iovernruent to make territories after the fashion of the American Government." — It was at one time spoken of in Canada, and it was considered that there would be very great difficulties connected with it ; I may mention a fact which probably will be within your recollection ; I think it was in the year 0.25- A 3 1849. Inl ' I i t! 1 i i ' i *S {ii 6 * MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. Rtai, ttq. 1849. The Canadian r-overnment had previously ^'ranted licences to certain companies for mining purposes on Lake Superior ; one company, I think it was 10 Febniiry 1857. called the Quebec Company, took possession of an island, Michipicotnn Island in Lake Superior, and estal)Uslied works there. Certain Indians, the Garden River Indians, known as the Garden River Tribe, and certain half-breeds, assei ted that they had a right over those lands for which a licence had been granted, and they went by force and took possess! in of the Island of .Michipi- coton and of the works of tlie mining company. The Canadian (Jovernment 1 *" course arrested the parties, and so far as the Indians were concerned, upon the expression of thiir cuntrition for doing wrong, they were forgiven, and in the end a compensation was given to them to surrender their rights ; but that cost tlie Canadian Government so much money, thit I think whatever they mii'ht have considered as regards colonization, they have felt very much alarmed at the idea of getting into contact with Indians since. 58. Then I understand your ol)jection to be, that money should be paid by the Canadian Government. If it were paid by the Imperial Government I suppose you would see no objection to that compensation being made r — The question of compensation as regards the Imperial Government I have not raised at all. I think if the Canadian Government required for purposes of settlement any portion of the territory which is not now within their borders, such com- pensation as might be considered fair they might fairly be called upon to pay. 59. You did not perceive the force of my first question. When ti)ey acquired land beyond their borders, I propounded to you the inquiry whether you thought it better that the acquired territory should be made a territory, or aggregated to Canada r - I do not think that under the system of government which exists in Canada now, such a course of acquiring new territory, and governing it by means of territorial government, would be convenient or conducive to the iniere.sts of Canada. I think they had better take what land they may require for puiposes of actual settlement, say to the extent of 10, 20, 30, or 50 townships of land, and so fast as they want more, obtain it in the way I have sucgcsted, by notice to the Hudson's Bay Company, than that they should get a large extent of country with tribes of Indians, perhaps, occupying it, and perhaps a border dithculty, or war to deal with; I think that would not be advisable. fio. Would not the difficulty arise just as much whether ycm acquired 20 settlements or townships or 30? — It might in that proportion of 20 and 30 ; but if notice were given to the Hudson's Hay Company that within 12 months or two years the Camidian Government desired to occupy such part of the country as might be fitted for settlement, the Indians whom the Hudson's Bay Company employ and deal with, finding that settlements were to be established, it might become a question of compensation to the Indians to leave their hunting ground, which I think the Canadian Government should pay, and they would remove ofl'that part of the territory, or not continue to occupy it. The thing, I hope, would he fairly and equitably done as regards the Indians, and in that way I think difficulties perhaps would not ensue. But if vou take a very large extent ot territory, and by so doing take away the employment which the Hudson's^ Bay Company at present give to tribes of Indians, and leave them in want, they may jjcrhaps find means of helping themselves, and they may come down upon the bonier settlements. (ii. Mr. Kinmird.] You rather think that the fact of the occupation given to the Indians by the Hudson's Bay (;ompany has been a protection to the border country ? — I am clearlv of that opinion. (I'i. .Mr. Adderlcy.'] To what degree do you think the Canadian Government could extend its system of administration fioni head quarters ? — At present lam not sure that it would be convenient to extend it at all. 113. Talking of the extension of the colony of Canada, do you consider that it could, by degrees, take in the whole of the habitable part of the Hudson's Bay territory: — I think so. f»4. Under the (; ■vernment of Canada, without any local or subordinate system?— Yes, I think so, in case they could lay oflfthe townships; hut the fact is, that it would not be desirable to settle them any faster than that. 6.'). Tlie compen.sation which you suggest, I suppose would be from the Canadian territory, both 10 the Hudson's Bay Company and to the Indians ? — I have not suggested any compensation at all. I only say that if the giving of compensation i^'\\ SELECT CUMMITT1::E ON THE HUDSONS BAY COMPANY. 1* compensation be equitable and fair, if the Canadian Government require the teriitory for purposes of settlement, whatever that compensation may be, I think it fair that they should meet it. 66. Compensation to both parties, the Company and the Indians ? — To both parties, if any compensation should be paid. If the Hudson's Bay Company surrender a territory fit for settlement, which of course should only be where the Canadian territory approaches it, I am not sure that for that any compensation should be given. I only suggest that if they are called upon to give up posts, they should be allowed to retain a certain portion of the land for their employes about them, and hold it as ii part of their own property. 67. When you speak of the possibility of carrying out a railway depending upon settlement, might it not he possible that the more distant parts might be settled first, and that the r.iilway mi>>ht pay as the means of thoroughfare to the furthest point? — ^The usual way of beginning such a settlement is l)y cutting a good broad road through the territory which you intend to open up, and then laying off your allotments of land on each side for actual settlers. That would, I suppose, be usually the first process before the railway was attempted to be miide. You would carry on the thing in that way by degrees. tJ8. Talking of a great co itinent like th.it, supposing Vancouver's Island and the western side of the Rocky Mountains settled, although the part between that and Ciuiada was still wild, ml^^'ht not ;i railway be a very feasible plan as a means of thoroughfare to that part which was settled?— I think it might, but I think that more of an imperial question than a colonial one. 69. Do you think that too large an experiment tor Canada to make ? — Yes, with her present resources. 70. If the whole of the Hudson's Bay territory were settled, do you not think that Vancouver's Island would be most attractive to settlers? — ^Yes. 71. Long before the intervening portion of tlie territory between that and the western side of Canada could come into settlement? — So far as my information goes, that is the best for settlement, and would be the first settled. 72. The idea of a railroad, ultimately, is not so much for the benefit of the interior of the country, as for a means of thoroughfare and access to harbours on the western coast of America, is it ? — That is so, and for the through trade from Chiaa and India. The construction of that railway is a most important subject ; apart entirely from the opening of the country through which it would pass. 73. Mr. Gordon.] Are you aware that a society has been established, at Toronto, for the purpose of forming a colonization to the west of Lake Superior, between that and the Lake of the Woods ? — I believe there are certain gentlemen at Toronto very anxious to get up a second North-west Company, and I dare say it would result in something like the same difficulties which the last North-west Company created ; I should be very sorry to see them succeed. 1 think it would do a great deal of harm, creating further difficulties lor Canada, which I do not de-ire to see created. 74. You do not know anything ol the nature of the society or association, recently formed, and what weight deserves to be attached to it? — I do know several of the gentlemen who are moving in it ; I know that at least one of them was very instrumental in making the difficulty which was made with the Garden River Indians, and the half-breeds in 1849, of which I have been speaking. I believe he was at their head at the time that they seized upon and took possession of the Quebec Company's works upon the island of Michipicoton. 7,5. Then you do not apprelienci that there is any general wish, on the part of the people of Canada, to have that portion of the country added to what they now have ? — I believe there is a general wish that so fast as the territory can be occupied, tor purposes of settlement, means should be taken that it should be 80 occujiied- 76. Do you believe ihat those portions of the territory, capable of being colonized, are such as to afford sufficient attractiveness to bring colonists to that distance, in preference to more attainable points of settlement, much nearer the settled parts of Canada r — I should say not at present ; 1 should say they much prefer the nearer lands to more distant ones. 77. .Mr. Roebuck.] Dc you say that from your eXf,>erience of colonization in the United States f — I say it from my knowledge of public affairs in Canada 0.25. A 4 solely ; J, Ro$$,. Efq. ao February 1857. 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J Rott, Esq. JO February 1157, I « It:. I speak of wliat I think desirable tor the Canadian Government and by the solely ; people. 78. Ho you know the extent to which new territories are created United States ? — I know the usual process. 79. I refer to the extent of territory over which they pass ; take Iowa, for instance? — Iowa has been settling for these last 20 years; I believe the first settlements in Iowa were made in 1834 or ISSf). 80. When Iowa was begun to be settled there were very large masses of unsettled land, but still people went to Iowa?— There were, but they were not very good lands, poor lands. 81 . Chaxrman^ Iowa, I believe, is a country of remarkable fertility ? — It is. 8j. Mr. Roehuck.'\ But on the Gennessees there were very large quantities of very fertile land unoccupied \ — If there were, they were held at so high a price that it was not within the means of the class of settlers to occupy them ; they were held, for instance, at the rate of 100 dollars, or about that ; they could not be l)ought for twice that now. 83. Before Iowa was settled, did they not create a new territory west of Iowa ? — My impression is that they did not ; I think the territory of SVisconsin was a little before that time lentleman who went across the country, and I believe there is no settlement at all. Mr. Oliphant has written u work c.illed " Minesota and the Far West," giving an account of a trip which he made from the head of Lake Superior across the country to the river ;ibove St. Paul's, and he came down that river, and so homeward. I believe there are no settlements between the most southerly point of the Red River Settlement, and the most northerly point of the St. Paul's Settlement. I believe there is a space of from 400 to 500 miles without settlers ; there is a long extent of country where there u not even a squatter. 90. Mr. liuehuc/,-.] Have you any notion whether any attempt has been made to number the Indians ii|)on the territories of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany ? — There is a work of Sir George Simpson's which I remember to have read. I tliink it is called •' A Voyane round the World," or some such title as that, in which, I think, he gives some account of the numbers of the Indians approximately. That is the only authority that I have seen upon the subject. 100. You have no knowledge of whut the numbers of the Indians are upon that territory, which you suppose may eventually become inhabited from Canada ? — No ; the Canadian Government has no information upon the subject. 101. Then you have no grounds for an opinion as to the danger arising from the opposition on the part of those Indians ? — I know that there are large numbers of Indians within the territory, from the statement of Sir George Siiiijjson, for instance ; I know it from others who were born on the territory, and have grown up in it, and who have come to this country to be educated, who say that there are large numbers ; but I would not attempt to give to the Committee a statement of anything like the exact numbers, for I am not sutii- ciently informed. 102. Chairman.] Is it not the case that that part of the territory of the Hud- son's Bay Company which is valuable for the fur trade is not the part which is properly adapted for settlement, but is rather a more nortliern and a colder part? — That is our impression in Canada, but in that we may be wrong. 103. Mr. Blackburn.'] I think you say that you know no parties in Canada wishing to settle the Hudson's Bay territories r — There are parties who wish to get up another North-West Company. 104. An opposition company ?— Some company who will lead to profitable speculation. I do not think any person seriously desires to settle any of the Hudson's Bay territory at present. 105. .Mr. Gordon.] The association of which I spoke is not a fur company at present, is it? — It might be converted into anything. I o(i. Lord Stanley^ Can you state to what extent occupation has gone on up the Ottawa River ? — 1 could send, I think, from papers which I have in my possession, the last census returns on the Ottawa. IC7. Mr. Edicard Eliice.] Are you aware that the Government has offered 4,000,000 of acres on the Ottawa to any company who will undertake a railway there ? — I am. 108. Mr. Rotbuck.] How near do the head waters of the Ottawa approach to the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — You go north to the watershed, I suppose, towards Hudson's Bay. 109. Have the boundaries between Canada and Hudson's Bay ever been settled ? — I think not on the west. 1 10. That is on the north ? — That would be north-west. lit. yir. Lowe.] Has the valley of the Ottawa ever been completely sur- veyed '(■ — The greater part of it. I I J. Are there not some of the tributaries not yet surveyed, or traced ? — Yes ; a great deal of the valley has been surveyed, however. 0.25. B 113. Is 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. Rum, Esq. 1 13. Is the valley at all completely settled ? — It is not. " 114. A very small portion of it ?-- A considerable jiortion of it ; it is merely 20 Pcbrunry 1857. ^ narrow strip of settlement so far as the north shore of the Ottawa is con- cerned. 1 15. Do you think that persuns will be likely to go on, and settle on the Red River, till the good land on tlie shores of tiie Ottawa is taken up? — 1 think not, from my own experience. J 16. Mr. Roebuck.] Docs that arise from experience of the United States": — I speak from what I think are the dispositions of the Canadian people. 117. I am speakinable i--, I think, incorrect. I have been told bv thosi; who have travelled across the country thai there is a great deal of swamp there ; 1 believe there i> more broken and bad land than good lying in that country between Lake Superior and the Red River Settlement. 148. But you think it possible to run a railway there ?— Quite. 149. Mr. Edward Eilite.] What is the distance, do you think, in miles, from 0.25- B 2 the J, Hon, Eaq. to February 1B57. la MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. Rou, E»q. the western portion of the Otiawa to the head of Lake Superior, near the country that you have been talking of, where ii railway may be run; is it 1,000 miles ? — •20 I'ebruory 1857. It is about 800 I should think. i,5<.. Mr. Belt.] What is the distance from the most distant point of Lake Superior to the Ked River Setilemiut? — In round numbers, 1,000 miles from the Sault St. Mary. 1,51. Mr. J^ochuck.] What is the extent of your contemplated railway, from the point to which you have now obtained an Act of Parliament, to the point i*hich yon contemplate eventually? — We disire to have it carried across the continent, believinir that it will be for the interests both of the Imperial and of the Canadian (iovemment ; and we think that the trade with China and India might be drawn over that line of communication. Perhaps it is taking rather a Ions flio'it. i.'iL'. Vou contemplate, then, going across the Rocky Mountains to Van- couver's Island ? — Yes, we hope to see it extended there in time. 1.53. Mow far is it from the head of your present railway concession, if I may use that term, to the Red River?— It is upwards of 1,200 miles, I should think. 154. Then the railway to get to the Red River would pass to the north of Lake Hurhn and the north of Lake Superior ? — Yes. 155. And you think it perfectly feasible.' — As at present informed, I do. I, "it). Mr. Gordon.] Is it not the fact that the banks of the Saguenay are extiemely precipitous and inaccessible, and that that is one of the ditiiculties in the way of having a prosperous settlement there ? — The banks are very pre- cipitous ; but I was S|)eakiiig of those parts which arc cultivated. 157. Thevpiie^s? — The valleys. Lutue, 23" die Februarii, 1857 • MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bell. Mr. Edwi""} Ellice. Mr. Charity Fitzwilliam. Mr- Gordon. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Pircy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Labouchere. Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Roebuck. Lord John Russell. Viscount Sandon. Lord Stanley. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, in the Chair. Lieutenant-Colonel John Henrtf Lvfroy, Royal Artillery, called in ; and Examined. :|!i: r'li i l.ieut.-Colonel 158. Chairman^ I believe you are connected with the War Department? — ,T. lI.LeJroy, r.a. I am ; I am Inspector-general of Army Schools. ' i^iQ. Have you had occasion to become acquainted with British North •J3 librtiarviSj;. America r--I resided 11 years in North America, and passed nearly two years in the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company. •(io. In «hat capacity did you visit tiie territories of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany ? — I was employed under the general direction of the Royal Society to make magnetical observations over the whole of the accessible portion of their territorj'. 161. In the performance of that task did you travel very much over the ter- ritories of the Hudson's Bay Company? — I visited almost the e ♦ire region; every place of any consequence on the east side of the Rocky Mountains. i ; I think it was a'lout ihe year 1838 ; the rest of the population is made up of half-breeds and French Canadians, who have straggled there from all directio is. The purely English element is not very large. The Hudson's Bay C'ompany make little use of English labour ; they make use of Scotch and Orkney labour, and there are a good many Scotch and Orkney men there. l()-2. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S I? AY COMPANY. 15 192. Is there any part of the territory that you are acquainted with to which Litiut;ion of prairie is indic;ited by a green tint; north and east of that region there are woods. 21,-,. Ail to the north of Lake Superior is woody country ? — Until you get to a very considerable distance north ; but I beg to »ay that the wood in that country, the pine, which is the most prevalent wood, will grow in any crevice in which tliere is any moisture, and I have seen pines of large size growing on a granite rock as hard as this t ible, simply by the moisiture which was found in the crevices. You cannot infer that that is a soil fitted for agricultural purposes from the fact of there being wood. 216. Not from the fact of there being pine-wood, but if otiier hard wood grows you may do so? — Yes; those woods having a tap-ruot, but a great num- ber have not. 217. Is not that the mode by which people who explore a country for auri- cultunil purposes determine the capability of the country for agricultun", namely, from the wood upon it ; in America, I mean? — It is one of the niodes ; it is a superfieiiil one. 218. Where you find large quantities of trees of five feet in iliameter, and large beech trees, would yon not at once sav that that is a cultivable soil ?— Unquestionably ; but there is not a tree of any desiription five fent in diameter in the Hudson's Bay territory on the east side of the Kocky Mountains ; the largest pines, which are the largest trees there, seldom exceed three feet in diameter. 21 p. Supposinjf there were trees of three feet in diameter, would you not say the soil was good ? — Yes. I have seen that in islands possessing a depth of alluvial soil brought down by floods. The island on which Fort Simpson, on the Mackenzie River, is built, is of that descriptic : and very fine timber is to be found there. 220. You say that you have not seen any evidence that the climate has ameliorated? — I have seen none. 321. Are you at all aware historically of the state of Europe in centuries past? — Yes; I am aware that there is reason to suppose that the climate of Europe in former times, before cultivation was so general, was colder than it is now; the winters were colder. Having given considerable attention to that subject, i may state generally that the result of my inquiries leads me to this conclusion, that the efiect of cultivation anywhere in America is to diminish the extremes of temperature both in summer and in winter, but to leave the mean annua] temperature not much affected by it. Meteorological observa- tions were commenced at Toronto, in Canada, in 1840. I was mysL'lf engaged with them about 11 years; and I of course had experience of a groat variety of hot winters and cold winters, and summers also. Since I left it, which was in the year 1853, they have had extremes in both directions that fall far without the limits of my observation ; they have had three winters of such severity as I never encountered in all that period, and they have had hotter summers; it therefore shows that conclusions based on data not derived from observations over a long series of years, comparable and accurate ones, are very likely to deceive us. 222. The sensations of a man are very misleading; but supposing, for example, that formerly the territory bore reindeer, and that the rivers of that territory were annually frozen, and that now reindeer will not live there and the rivers are never annually frozen, would you not say from those data that the country had ameliorated in climate ?— I should say so, if I was acquainted with no other facts ; but I am acquainted with a fact with regard to the habits of the reindeer which SELECT COMMITTER ON THE HUDSON'S h.AV C( '^ANY. i \' ii«ii ■ si' i( of UMirlHer (it lin thpm ; wliirh would render such n roncluHion insecure ; until the yr r |H;iU were in the hiibit of niiKratin^ in enormous numherH iiloiu the \ IIuflson'M Hay, pasHing York Fnetory to the Month ; in thiit year tl. were greater timn uhubI, and a most extraordinary and wanton them took place by the Indians ; the Company were unable to n from that day to this, accordinfi; to the best of my information, inf reindeer have never been Meen in that region, although there is no reason to suppose that there m any chan^'c in the climate or its capacity for furnishing them with food. •j'i:]. Ah you say you have paid attention to the atate of tlie (climate in Europe, I suppose you are perfectly aware that reindeer used to live ujmn the banks of the l)anMbe and on the Rliine ? — I was not aware «)f the fart ; I had fors^otten it if I had ever seen it. ■224. That fact is adduced by Gibbon as a proof that the climate has very much ameliorated by time ? — Yes. '2J,'). The freezing of rivers, for example, is another evidence ; I suppose there is notiiing that could contradict that? — I should think not. 2J(). Taking the name circumstances, namely, that Gaul and Germany were in times past, very shortly after the Christian era, in the mme state that Canada is now ; having paid attention to the climate of different cduntries, would you not conelutle that the same circumstances occurring in Canada as have occurred in Europe, namely, the clearing of woods, and the draining of morasses, would lead to a gnat amelioration of the climate ? — There are some circumstances whieli make an essential difference in the two problems. In the first place, the actual coil of Western Europe is deeper, and better suited to the growth of grains of every description than the soil of the Hudson's Bay territory, from my knowledge of it. •2-2-. Is that the case with Prussia? — The district of Prussia, I believe, is generally sandy, but I have not travelled there ; I speak of the country in a general way. Then there is this cause ameliorating the climate of Western Europe, which we feel in our own islands particularly, namely, the influence of the Gulf Stream. Our condition is abnormal ; but if you refer on the map to the lines of equal temperature, passing through both continents, through America and through Europe, you will tind that the lines descend, that is to say, you will find the line of equal temperature, of 50" we will say, which is the limit of the profitable cultivation of barley, in much lower latitudes in the Hudson's Bay territory than you will in Western Europe. 2 J 8. I suppose the southern point of Lake Winnipeg is about the latitude of some of the finest countries in Europe ? — I believe it is. 229. Do you know anything of the actual physical condition of the northern shore of Lake Superior r — Merely from having coasted it before the explorations which have subsequently taken place, — I mean those connected with mining speculi^tions ; therefore I had only ocular inspection from passing along it. :2.3o. .'ou have not travelled on the land there r — No, except for a very few miles. 23 1 . Have you any evidence that there are large morasses there which render it impassable? — Immediately adjoining the shores there cannot be large morasses, because the land rises rapidly ; there are two terraces indicating changes of level at former periods, iind the land rises rapidly, and in fact the north-west shore is mountainous. 232. There is a litke called Lake Nipigon ? — Yes. 233. Does not that fall into Lake Superior r — It drains, I believe, into Lake Superior ; I never was there. 234. Therefore, may we conclude that it is higher than Lake Superior and the land through which it runs ? — Of course. 235. If on the shore of Lake Superior there are not morasses, we may con- clude that there are not morasses between those two points ? — Hardly that. Morasses are to be met with at the highest points. In fact, it will be found, as a general rule, I believe, that the districts which furnish the sources of rivers are always districts ot morass. I could point to three or four instances of that on the map. Probably, Honourable Members can find on their maps the River Savan ; the Dog Lake will be found on the map not far above Lake Superior. If you follow the line of boundary between Lake Superior and the Rainy Lake, about midway between the two you come to a very elevated 0.25. C district U«M.-Colon«l I'cbniarjr ityj. MINUTKS OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE an LieuL-C4>lonvl (Uhlrift, which fiiniitthcH the souror of rivt-rn fiillinK in iM)th (lin'otinns into J. U. L^Ttip, h. A. HiuIsciii'k IJhv and into i.ukf Su|M'ri(»r and tlie Atluntic. That rfition is out' of ininu'iiM; phyitical ditticidty, in ronHn|Ui'ni*r ol morasHrx, and vvvrv tradir Ivudwh ■i3 February 1837. ^\^^, jsHvnnnuh n>()ra»8, tin* Hrairi*' portag*-, and the ^rcat ititcrriiptionN wliicli l>e huH to patiH, witli i-xtriuu- ditficuUy, in conxt-qufnce of tiicrc hf-ing Hwainpn at what iit the hci^ht of hind of tliat rt-Kion. j;j(). An- you awar«' tiiat tlieiv \» a m'hmw now in coniiinMUHMiifnt, rather ttian aiiytldnK elm-, of carryinK u railway alonf< tin; northern nhore of Lake Snptrior, ami tivi-ritually arrosn tlie Rocky Mountains to the Pacitic Ocean.' — I have Hccn pr()]i(isuis to tliat effect. aj". Do tiiuse plans c-onteinplate any ini|>UHsaliU> barrier on the northern shore of I^ke Superior- — Tliose ]>lans iiave always seemed to me to l)e drawn on the eiiKinicrinu |irinciple of laying down an air hue, and tuen assuming that capital will cany you aloii;; it ; hut the physical diiticrultiett of doing it would be enormously great, and 1 catmot persuade myself that 8uch an undertaking would be conducted with any commercial tulvantage. a,{8. Mr. Ctrofidii.] You spoke of the population on the lied River Setthunent not I'cing very large, owing to the difficidty of access. If there were a railway in that direction capable of being constructed, would not that difficulty be obviated? — It would undoubtedly ; but it always appears to me, on studying the map. that the natural affinities t)f the Red River Setth-meut are with the valley of the Missouri, and that we shall be going against nature if we try to force it into the valley of the St. Lawrence. .2;{q. You consider that the natural direction is to go into the United States.' — 1 think ^'o ; I do not think that the route by the 8t. Lawrence can ever compete commercially witli the route to the sou'h. -'40. You have illustrated your local experience for a period of 12 or 14 years ; you have said that your general observations in the (country were lnsuffi(;ient to enable you to form correct data ? - They were insufficient to obtain tlu- fact of the highest or the lowest tem]>erature, or.to furnish a mean which was not liable « to be disturbed l)y the observations of another year. 241 . l)o any reconls exist at the different stations of tlie Hudson's Bay Com|)any whereby the increase or decreasi; of temperature can be ascertained ? — 1 am sorry to say that the records of tliat region are exceedingly slender, almost valueless in a scientific jwint of view. Sir John Richardson has (H)llected in his last work of travels the best ud'oriuation he couUl get, but the data are most scanty. ■242. In jwint of fact, does the impression exist in the country that the climate of that district is ameliorating ? - I never heard of it. 243. With regard to limestone, is the district where the limestone prevails of any extent ? — The westirn shore of Lake Winnipeg is entirely limestone, but there is no soil on it ; it has literally no soil in many places ; it is as bare as your hand. 244. The rock is on the surface ? — Yes. 24',. The soil does not cover the surface com])letely : — 1 did not explore with sufficient accuracy to give an opinion upon those points. I must bej, that my o^jservations may be considered as relating principally to the routes that I travelled over. I did not explore the interiors : 1 went over the great routes of communication only. 24*). Are you able to speak of vegetation, whether it exists in detached portions of that district ! — I can speak more positively of that, because I made inquiries about it, the subject having engaged my attention. Tlie points where cultivation was more carried on were these : there was the Red River Settlement, where there was very considerable cultivation, and Fort Cumberland, and the Basquiau River, in the Saskatchewan district, and Lake La Crosse ; at Fort C'umberland tiiere were about 10 acres of ground under cultivation ; at Lake La Crosse, a little to the north of Cumberland House, there were iUso about 10 acres of ground under cultivation, yielding barley ; at Lake Athabasca, where I passed a winter, which is further north again, potatoes of a small size could be grown, but there had been no success in growing barley or any cereal at all. At Fort Simpson, ou Mackenzie's River, where it turns to the northward, just at the angle, on a large island of deep alluvial soil, farming was unusually suci^essful ; there were regular crops of barley, regular cattle, and a very good garden. That is in about latitude 62° i think ; barley grew there very well indeed. 247. Sir SELECT COMMITTEE ON TMF. rHM)SON-S BAY COMPANY. 19 347. B\r John Pakinfilnn ] Were you there yourself? — I pnMRed alionf tour LiMi.Colunel months tluTe ; hnrlcy was even k^owu witli xucpesH; that in to Hfty, siiffiricntly J- H. Ufroj/, n. a, M) to l)f worth the labour he^^towcd upon it by the trader, and to furnish K'*ain to add greatly to the nu'anH of subHistciice of the Muiali fimily oceupviu^ ii "■* t*«'nru«ry 1857. tradiiiK po!*t at that station ; they were aUW to pick the very l)est pieees of ground to be found. AlHoat Fort Norman, in hit. «4* 'M\ barh'y watt i^rowu, and that iiH the uiont northern s|H>t ju Anieriea wliere any strain lias been !2. I am talking of a mnttcr of fact, not of the number of months ; I mean when the rarth is so frozen that }ou cannot plough it ; can jou nay that the winter on the Saskatchewan is shorter thun the winter at St. Petersburgh, or longer, giving you that as a datum' — I cannot answer that question. 2(13. If it is not longer, and St. Petersburgh is habitable, and covered with a vast population, this territory might be covered also? — St. Petersburgh has a seaport to supjjly it, and it has productions of various kinds which have a com- mercial value ; this region not only has no seaport, but it is about 700 or 800 miles from one, to be reached by a very difficult navigation, leading not into the Baltic, which has its outlet to the south, but into Hudson's Bay, which bos its outlet lo tlie north, and which is only navigable for about three months in the year ; those are essential differences in both the physical and commercial comlitioiis of the two regions. 264. Is the Baltic at St. Petersburji[h navigable for more than three months in the year • — I apprehend that it is navigable for seven or eight months ; I speak under correction. 2()'>. Sir John Palciiigtoii.] You mentioned the difference in cHmate on the western sids of this great district as it approaches the Pacific ; can you give the Committee any iilea of the extent of that difference, either the extent geogra- phically to which it prevails, or the degree to which it prevails? — I should be unwilling to speak from memory upon such a subject, because it is one which must be brought to figures ; I could easily ascertain the facts as far as data exist for doing so, l)ut I would not venture to speak from memory. •266. Is the difference a marked and decided one ? — Unquestionably so ; it meets you everywhere in America, that the further you go to the westward along the same parallel of latitude, you come to a milder climate. 2C7. Mr. Jiocbuck.] Is that the case on the east of the Rocky Mountains ? — It is so in the southern latitudes. 2(iiS. Sir Jo/in Paldngloii.] To what cause do you attribute the difference in climate? — It is difficult to give an answer 10 tiiat question directly. The pre- valent winds in the region beyond the tropics have a great influence upon the climate of the countries wliich they pass over. You find that the prevalent winds in the extra tropical region being from the westward, those winds bring from th(! Pacific Ocean a large quantity of moisture, which moisture has a tendency to amehorate the climate of the regions which receive its first benefit. As they proceed further to the eastward they lose a portion of that moisture, and pass over regions, frozen or covered with snow through a large part of the year; they come down to Canada more severe, of course, and charged with less moisture, and actually colder by having given up latent heat to the regions they have ])assed over, than nearer to the west. 269. What are the prevailing winds on the ea.«tern side of this part of America ? — I should b(! glad to reserve my answer to that question because I should wish to speak with accuracy. The prevaling winds, on the whole, are westerly ; they are rather from the western semicircle than from the eastern. I believe they are north-westerly. 270. How far to the westward have you penetrated ?— Nearly as far as the Rocky .Mountains, but not over them. My limits westward were Dunvegan, on the Peace River, and Edmonton on the Saskatchewan. 271. Do you attribute the power of producing barley so far north as Fort Simpson to that comparative neighbourhood to the Pacific to which you have referred ? — In a very great degree 1 do. 272. Can you state what is the general difference in cUmate between Fort Simpson and these other settlements in the neighbourhood of Lake Winnipeg ? — The difiference of mean summer temperature between those two regions I believe to be but little; but I am reluctant to speak with precision upon these points, because if they have value at all, it is as scientific facts, and I confess that I am not sufficiently armed with them at this moment to be able to be positive. 273. Fort Simpson has, of course, a much severer (tlimate, I presume? — Very much severer, taking the year round. 274. You spoke in the early part of your examination of the district which you were then speaking as being permanently frozen, so that the crops could not be grown ; to what part of this district did you apply that expression, of " permanently SELECT COMMITTEE ON T'^E HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 21 " permanently frozen " ?^I am unable to state very extensive facts u|)on that Lieut.-CnUmcl subject ; the soil at York Factory, on Hudson's Bay, is permanently frozen. ^- ^'- ^■'J'oy^ "••*• •J75. Mr. Jioehuck.] How far north is that ? — It is about 57 degrees, I think, not ^^ February if-,?, so far north as Fort Simpson ; the soil there does not thaw in the summer more than about three feet deep, and it is frozen to ahout 20 feet permanently. 27ti. Sir Jo/in Pakinff/on.] I a])])rehend that you did not mean to apply that expression, " permanently frozen " in the sense in which 1 think you used it, naint'ly, as applying generally to this district, but only to particular parts ? — Of course ; it is a very large region ; the district is as large as Europe, and has great differences of climate. 277. You applied the term generally. I presume there is nothing to which you could apply the term " permanently frozen " in the nature of the climate about the Ked River Settlement, or even at Fort Cumberland Station ? — Fort Cumberland, I believe, is near the limit of the region where the ground is per- manently frozen ; more accurately speaking, I think Lake La Crosse is about that limit. •278. There is cultivation at Fort Cumberland, is there not? — I do not mean to say there is not cultivation where the ground is permanently frozen ; at the most northerly point I have spoken to, namely. Fort Norman, on Mackenzie's River, the ground is permanently frozen to the 1 epth of 4;* feet, yet there is cultivation. 27(). What do you mean by " permanently frozen " ? — I mean that it never thaws except at the surface. I had a remarkable opportunity of ascertaining that fa(!t by a great landslip on the banks of the Mackenzie River, exposing a completely permanent frozen soil to the depih of 45 feet. The surface thaws to the extent of a foot or two. In the more open situations, it thaws of course to a greater depth. 280. Under those circumstances, with a depth of permanently frozen ground of many feet, and only thawed very superticially, does the ground admit of cultivation?— Not, 1 think, with any profit; indeed, a white population accus- tomed to civilised life cannot find subsistence. 281. The ripening of the crops under those circumstances must be preca- rious ?— Yes. There is a difference between absolute cultivation yielding small returns for the support, or the assistance of other means of support, of a very small community, such as is to be found at all these forts, and one on which a large conmiunity can permanently depend. All over that country, although they have a crop in many places, they depend principally upon fish, and the dried meat of the buffalo. 282. What is the population of the Red River Settlement? — In 1843 or 1844 it was about 5,000, according to the information given me. 283. What population is there at the northern settlement of Fort Cumber- land, or Norway House ? — It does not in any one instance, I imagine, amount to 20 persons permanently resident. At some seasons of the year there are others coming and going, and the Indians occasionally frequent them. Not, of course, including the Indians inhabiting the districts supplying those stations with their furs ; but taking the residents, you will find 10, 20, or 30, according to the means of subsistence. 284. Are there any European inhabitants in the district between the Red River and Cumberland Fort and Norway House ?— None but the traders in the Hudson's Bay Company's employment. 285. Is Lake Winnipeg open for navigation for any length of time in the summer?— Not for long; 1 should suppose that Lake Winnipeg is open for navigation from iviay till about the end of October. 28(J. The whole lake would then be open ?— Yis. 287. Mr. Roebucfc.j Do you know how long the St. Lawrence is open at Quebec r — It varies extremely in different seasons ; but the St. Lawrence at Uuebec is generally open early in April. 288. I beg your pardon? — In April. 28;). Not till May. Do you not know that after the month of November ' begins, the insurance upon ships doubles?— I am quite aware of that; but I am equally aware that the last vessels leave tiuebcc very late in November, and I have known them leave in December. 290. You say that you attribute the possibility of growing barley at Fort o 25. c 3 Simpson ■ 93 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE -I attribute it in a great degree to ;] LIcui.-Colonel Simj)son to its proximity to the Pacific ?- J.H. Lefrog,},. A. that fact. ' 2()i. Does not Fort Simpson lie vorv near the Rocky Mountains, to the east «3 February 1857. of the Rocky Mountains ?— Yes. 'it)'.'. Do not the Rocky Mountains continue frozen tlirougliout the year upon their summits ? — The Rocky Mountains there are very much lower tlian they are in lower latitudes. I have seen snow over the whole region of the Rocky Moimtains within view in June ; therefore, I presume that they tare covered • • with snow almost all the year round. 'ip.5. llie i)roximity of Fort Simi)son to the Rocky Mountains would h'al to the chilling of the atmosphere, would it not? — It depends a little upon the distance ; the actual distance is rather considerable. The Rocky Mountains approach the Mackenzie's River at a much lower latitude ; at tiie limit of the Arctic region the chain comes nearest, but at Fort Simi)son it recedes to some distance. I have in many instances observed that a sudden change of the wind from the eastward to the westward would almcst immediately raise the tem- l)erature of the air ten degrees at Fort Simpson. 294. South-west? — Ves, south-west. 29-). Sir Jo/in Pakhiffton.] Has the altitude of the Rocky Mountains in the British dominions ever been asctrtaiiud .' — No; the altitude of the great passes between the Saskatchewan and t'le Columbia has been ascertained with tolerable precision, but not further to the north. ■j(j6. What is it there? — I do not like to speak from memory. 297. .Mr. Edward Ellicf..'] On oidinary maps the highest range is marked at about 15.000 or 10,000 f('et, is it not? — Bur the pass is much lower than that. l'qS. Mr. Groff(in.~\ You spoke of the barley, for instance, having been ripened at Fort Simpson ; do you attribute that to any greater quantity of rain that may fall there than down at Fort Cumberland ? — No. 299. Mr. Loive.'] Have you had occasion to observe the effect of summer frosts in these territories upon crops? — No, not personally; but I have made inquiries concerning them. ;^oo. Will you state what is the fact in that respect ? — Summer frosts come at night in all months of tlie year, frequently with very great severity, and the ground will be frozen in June ; of course that cuts off all delicate cultivation. 30 1 . Does that interfere with the certainty of crops at the Red River ? — I believe very much. 302. And of course further north ? — Further nortli still more so. ;50;3. Have you observed tlie Indians on the Saskatchewan River ? — Yes. 304. What is the nature of the Indians there ; are they very fiercer— Some of the tribes on the Upper Saskatchewan are very warlike and untameable. 30/5. What are they principally ; the Blackfeet .' ~ I he Blackfeet ; there are five or six tribes which go under the general name of Blackfeet ; the Crees, who inhabit the lower portion of the region, seem to have less savage tendencies. 306. Is it sfife to travel there, one or two people together? — Under the pro- tection of the Hudson's Bay Company it could be done with perfect safety. 307. Do you tliink that a railway could be made with faciUty from any point in Minesota to the Red River ? — Yes. 30>i. From what place? — I tiiink almost anywhere. 309. From St. Paul's? — Yes, I should think it might. 310. Mr. Percy Herbert.] You spoke of the district between the Rainy Lake and the Lake of the Woods a* being not much inferior to Lower Canada ; is that district of which you spoke of considerable extent ? — I do not think it is of great extent, but it must be to the extent of several townships, as they are laid out in Canada. 311. VVouhl the district between that and Lake Superior admit of a commu- nication with Lake Superior? — It would admit of a communication by going to a very great expense ; the distance is not very great, but you have to pass over a region of swamp and morass, and a river which is not navigable ; there is a line of detached lakes, communicating by streams and rivers, which are not navigable. 312. Mr. Grtyson.] Upon the whole, what inducements are there to attract emigration to these regions ?— I do not n)yself think that emigration can be judiciously SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSONS BAY COMPANY. 25 judiciously directed to those regions. Undoubtedly there are the attractions of ft wild, romantic mode of life. '1 here is an abundance of the necessaries of life at the Red River Settlement, hut there is no trade, or next to none, because its interior position and its wan* )f communication with the ocean add so much to the freight upon all articles hat they cannot be exported at a profit. But persons who will be content with sufficient for the passing hour, and who have a turn for wild semi-civilised life, will enjoy tliemselves there very much. 3 1 3. Cliaijinan.'] It is a pretty healthy country, is it not ? — Very healthy. 3 1 4. During your residence in that country had you any opportunities of forming an opinion of the general character of the government of the Hudson's Bav ('ompany, so far as relates to their conduct towards the Indians and their mode of preserving the peace of the country .' — The best preservative for the peace of the country was taken by the Hudson's Bay Company about the year 1832, when they entirely discontinued sending spirits into it, or, I believe, not entirely, but almost entirely. Since that time blood feuds and quarrels among the Indians have diminished very much indeed. The white population is so very small that there is very little crime necessarily. What crime does occur there, is, I believe, treated at the Heil River Settlement by a recordei", the law officer there, and he told me that tli.' gaol was generally empty. I believe there is veiy little crime there. 31,5. Is there security of traveUinsr there ? — Perfect security, except at the head of the Saskatchewan, and among the warlike tribes, who are sometimes no rcfpecters of persons, and who will pilluge their best friends. 316. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] What do you call the warlike tribes? — The Blackfeet, mostly. 317. Mr. Edward FJlirc] Those which are nearest tlie frontiers? — Yes. ■^18. Chairman.'] Do you apprehend that there has been a very effectual check to the use of ardent spirits among the Indians, by the measures taken by the Hudson's Bay Company - — I am confident that there has, over the whole region except the Saskatchewan, where the necessity of meeting the Americans in some degree with their own weapons had obliged a very limited use of spirits; but the rule, if I am not mi>iinformed, wiis, that for one gallon of rum they put seven gallons of water ; the spirit issued was so much diluted that it had not much tffect. 319 Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] Is it not true that Americans trading in liquor are subject to a very severe fine ? - I believe there h that law in the United States, but it is evaded constantly. 320. Have you not het'rd of a trader i)eing sent down in chains from the post to the United States : — No ; I know that Americans do trade largely in liquor on the Missouri. 321. Mr. Roebuck.] You know nothing, you say, of Minesota ? - Not per- sonally. 322. I suppose you know, from its position on the map, that there are no further means fur going to Minesota than to Lake Winnipeg? — Minesota has a dense, industrious, enterprising population to the south and east of it, con- stantly pressing in that direction, l)ut the Hudson's Bay territory is not quite in that condition ; you come down to the lower parts of the Missouri, where you get into a comparatively dense population. 323. Iowa comes between ?- -I include all that. There is no physical reason why the people there should not press onwards ; and they are perpetually pressing onwards into Minesota. 324. Is there any physical reason why they should not press across the border, and come from Minesota to I^vke Winnipeg? — None at all. They do not do so from the United States, wliich fact I think shows that the inducements are not very great. 3'2,'5. Would not the fact of its being British territory be a reason why they should not come across the border ? — I do not think that that wuuld have any influence ; if they found it advantivgeous I think they would do it. 326. Sir John PakiiKjlon.] Is the Indian i)opulation supposed to be decreasing in those regicms ? — 1 fear there is no doubt that it is decreasing very rapidly. 327. From natural causes, not from the effect of European encroachment ? — I apprehend that European encroachment lias had a gl'^•lt deal to do with it, but it has been rather more from moral influences than fro.n any direct physical 0.25. c 4 influences, Lieut.-Colonul J. H' Lffrey, r.a. 33 February 1807. 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Lieut. -ColutMil J. H. Lcfroy, R.A. 23 February 1857 If ,; influences. I do not think, for example, that the traffic in liquor has been chargeable with it, which undoubtedly has been chargeable with it in other countries, or more to the south. 32S. Chairman,'] When you say that the Indians have diminished, are you speaking of the Hudson's Bay territory, as a whole, or are you referring to par- ticular districts only ; arc you prepared to say that you believe that the number of Indians within the limits of the Hudson's Bay territory, taken as a whole, has diminished ? — When I was able to compare the estimate of the number, which I procured in 1844, with Sir John Franklin's of about 20 years previously, I found a diminution of number ; and the aggregate number which I was able to establish by the best statistics that I could get was so very small that I cannot but believe they must have been more numerous, from tiie accounts which we read of a century ago. 329. Did their physical condition appear 10 you to be bad? — Miserable in many cases. 330. Mr Roebuck.] Is it not a known fact that the brown race disappears in proportion to the coming on of the white race ? — I think it is. 331. And the mere fact of a settlement, even at the Red River, would of itself tend to diminish the red population?— It would undoubtedly lead in that direction ; but the Red River Settlement is peculiarly situated ; the Indians in that part of the country are not diminishing so fast, because the buffalo is not decreasing, which is their great means of subsistence. As I mentioned before, the buffalo swarms to the south of the Saskatchewan, and even to the north of it ; the Indians there are the finest, and I do not think they ari' diminishing so much as elsewhere. 332. Chairman.'] Did you think that the physical condition of the Indian was worse as you got to the north? — Unquestionably, and also worse to the south ; the physical condition of the Indians about the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake is very much worse, and all round Lake Superior, within our own region, than it is on the Saskatchewan, because the i-esouices of subsistence are so much less ; the Indians there are again and again in the most abject misery by the failure oC the preoiirious means of subsistence which they have. 3,53. Had you any opportunity of seeing the condition of the Indians within the Canadian territory r — I have seen a good many of thtin from time to time. 334. What is their condition ? — I'hey are comparatively comfortable ; if not, it is their own fault. 335. They have property ? — Yes. 336. Even money in the funds ? — Some of tiiem have. 337. Sir John Pakington.] Looking to this vast di>trict bet\yeen Canada and the Pacific, there is a great portion ol" it, I apprehend, in which the white race can hardly be said to be advancing as yet ? —Yes. 3,58. And over a great portion of that tract I presume there is no reason to suppose that the Indian population is deteriorating or diminishing ? — It is so, I think, from causes which may appear rather remote. I believe there is a con- stant depressing moral influence, which is caused by association with classes in a superior condition of comfort to themselves ; tlien they become reckless and improvident ; they barter what is necessary to their own subsistence, or to that of their wives and children, which is equally important, for finery, things which are of no real good to them ; their good furs, which they had better wear them- selves, they trade away for beads, and they go half clothed, and they contract pulmonary complaints, and their children are born with weakened constitutions, and their families are diminished in number ; the result is, that it is hard to find an Indian family of more than three or four children. I remember an instance of one man who, 1 think, had nine children, who was quite a pheno- menon of paternity. 339. But surely your last answer applies to those cases in which the Indian has been brought into contact with the European ?— They are all brought into contact with the Europeans by constantly trading with them and depending upon the European trade for their means of subsistence. 340. Is that answer correct as affects the whole of the great district to which I have referred?— With the exception of a very small district to the north, on what are called the barren grounds, where there are bands of Chipewyan Indians subsisting on the flesh of the reindeer, and where the skin of the reindeer is their SELECT COMMTTYEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 25 their clothing, who rarely come to any forts for trade, l)ecause their country has Lieut.-Colonel nothing valuable. •>• K-W^'y ^ ^■^^ 341. Do all the tribes between Canada and the Pacific occasionally visit the ~ forts for trade and communication ? — I can only speak of the west side from "' "biuary 1857. hearsay ; the Indians there have a great resource in the salmon, which abounds, and, 1 believe, do not all come to the forts ; on the east they all come to tl;e forts. 342. Mr. Gurney.'] With reference to the river between the Lak« of the Woods and the Ruiny Lake, does the river at that part form the boundary between the United States territory and the British territory ?— I think it does ; the boundary starts at the parallel of forty-nine degrees, I think, to the north- ward of that river. 343. Then one bank of the river is American and the other bank British r — Yes. 344. Is there any marked difference as to the degree of settlement on the two banks r — There is none on either. 34.5. Altliough both are sufficiently fertile to allow of some settlement there ? — 1 think there might 'e some settlement there. 346. Mr. J3(7/.] Are you iovare of ahy settlement in the Hudson's Bay terri- tory besides the Hed Kiver where any attempt has been made to civilize the Indians ?— Such an attempt was made near Norway House, at the head of Lake Winnipeg, where there was a village of C'ree Indians in a tolerable state of civilization when I visited it. 347. Do you think they were diminishing or increasing? — The experiment had been so recently tried that I think it was impossible to say. 348. That is the only case you know of? — That is the only case I know, of an attempt to collect the Indians and to settle them in a village. Since that time a small settlement has been formed at the Pas, at the Basquiau River. It was occasioned by the bequest of a private benevolent person, who left a sum of money to be laid out for that purpose, and it has been so done. 349. You have visited most of the estabUshments of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Yes. 350. And that is the only instance?— That is the only one that I can think of at this moment. 351. Mr. Roebucl{.'\ Speaking generally, have not all attempts to civilize the Indians in North America failed r — They die out in the process : some progress has been made. 352. They disappear r — Y'es. 353. Mr. Addtrley.] You stated the population of the Red River Settlement at '>,000 ?— Yes. 354. What time were you speaking of? — Of 1843 and 1844. 355. Do you know at all what the population now is r — I do not. 356. In your opinion, how have the Company genei lly treated the Indians ? — It is necessary, in answering that question, to draw a listinction between the Company in its corporate capacity as a body of non-re lent shareholders, and the Company as a body of resident traders, its sen'ants. The traders, almost without exception, as far as my observation went, treatrd the Indians with signal kindness and humanity. Many instances of their reUeving them in their distress, and taking great pains to do so, came to my knowledge. But then their means of doing so are in some degree contingent upon the financial arrangements of the Company at large, over which they have no control, or but little. 357. Drawing that distinction, wiiat do you think is the effect upon the Indians of such arrangements made by the absentee proprietors?— I think the Indians sometimes suffer, because I think that the supplies of goods sent by the Company are sometimes inadequate. The traders can only do the best with the goods which they have; they have nothing to do with what are sent in. 358. Is the want of supplies the only arrangement which you think defective? — The principal one. 35y. Chairman.] What is the general character of the agents of the Hudson's Bay Company; as far as you could observe, were they respectable men- — Very generally so ; I never mingled with a body of men whose general qualities seen ed to me more entitled to respect. They are men of simple primitive 0.25. D habits, a6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 93 February 1857. di Lieut.-Colone) habits, leading the most Imnly lives ; generally speaking, contented, doing J. H. Lefroy, n.A. \)^c\r duty faithfully to tlieir employers, and in many instances taking sincere interest in the welfare of the Indians around them, and doing all they can to benefit them, but the Indian is a very difficult subject. 360. You think, upon the whole, that their conduct was that of men who were doing their duty, and acting in a considerate manner towards the Indians ? — I think so, most eminently. 3(1 1 . Mr. Clwrlea FUziciiliatn.] You say that the buffalo exists over this territory on the bank ; can domestic cattle live there also : — The buffalo exists over it ; there are domestic cattle at most of the forts now ; a cow or two ; even low down on the Mackenzie's River they have domestic cattle. I was a fellow - passenger with a bull in a small boat on that river. 362. They can exist in the winter ? — They have to be housed ; but horses exhibit extraordinary hardihood there ; the horses I have known to pass the winter in the open air at Edmonton, subsisting tliemselves by what herbage they could find under the snow. 363. The buffaloes are generally fatter in winter than in summer, are they not ? — I believe so. 364. As spring comes, the cows, which are the fattest, I believe, immediately waste almost to skeletons? — I cannot speak with much authority upon that point, but the annoyance of flies in summer is so great, that I know it frets the animals almost to death, and they lose flesh verj' much. (]: I ;i I'' 'in .!i John Rae, l:'.sq., m.d., called in ; and Examined. J. ifae, Esq, M.D. 365. Chairman.] I BELiEVB you are very conversant with the territory now in the occupation and management of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — VV ith the large portion east of the Rocky Moimtains. I have never been across to the west. 36C. Will you have the goodness to state under what circumstances you have become acquainted with that country? — I entered the service of the (Company in 1833, and was stationed at Aloose Factory, in latitude 51°, on Hudson's Bay, as medical man, 10 years ; during that time I saw a good deal of the natives of that part of the country. After that, for the hvst eight or 10 years, I was employed in arctic service, and spent some short time in Mackenzie's River. I then, in a winter journey, passed from Mackenzie's River by the usual route to the Red River, and down to St. Paul's across the frontier through the States. Those are the only two districts in the country that I have been engaged in ; at Moose Factory ten years, in the Mackenzie River one year, and at York Factory for one season ; all the rest of the time I have been employed in arctic service. 367. How long have you been employed in arctic service r — Eight years altogether ; eight summers and four winters. 368. Speaking generally, what is your opinion of the capacity of this ter- rit<»y for the purposes of settlement and cultivation r — I have never been in Saskatchewan, but I know the character of the country from others ; it is all capable of cultivation, I believe. The difficulty is the same as Colonel Lefroy mentioned, the difficulty of carrying out the produce by Hudson's Bay, or by communication by the States, because in the States of course there is the same sort of produce nearer at, hand, and of course the expense of carrying this produce from the Saskatchewan to market would do away with any profits that could be derived from it. 369. But J ou believe that, as far as soil and cUmate are concerned, there is in that part of the Hud&on's Bay territory a considerable district of country suitable for cultivation and for settlement ? — Quite so ; it will be capable of production as soon as the country grows up to it ; the country must grow up to it, the same as it does in the States. I passed through the States from the Red River, and the country has gradually been settled up ; there was still about 400 miles of quite uncultivated country lying between Pembina and the farthest part settled liy the Americans, when I passed down in 1852. 370. As far as you can form a conjecture, supposing that country was entirely open for purposes of settlement, do you think that there woitld be a disposition on the part of emigranti> to go there ? — Never, until the country is settled '^p near to it from the States, because as soon as settle''^ attempted to settle tL^re the SELECT COMMITTKE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 27 greater because I have -3 February 1857. '8 Bay, the the Hudson's Bay tlie Indians would attack them : it is a huffah)-huiiting country. The jjortion of the Indians are warHke in that jmrt- — I should believe that that would be the conse(juen(;e ; I only speak from supposition, never been in the Saskatchewan ; but I know that the habits of the Indians are rather warlike. ;]7i. Your opinion seems to be, that if there was nothing to prevent it, settlement in that district of the country would not be immediate, but would be gradual, and would be certain .' — Quite so ; when the country gradually settles up to it ; the produce cannot be carried out to Hudson' ditficulty of road is so great ; that is my impression. 37 J. You have stated that vou were in the service of Company ? — For '23 years. 373. .Are you still in their scrnce? — No ; 1 left their service last year. ;37..(. You are now quite independent of them ?— Yes. J7.';. What is your opinion of the system pursued by that Company, so far as relates to the Indian population ■— The system pursued is as fair, 1 think, towards the Indian as jwssible ; the Company's tariff with the Indians is one of tlie |>rincipal things I wish to mention ; the tariff is formed in a peculiar way, and necessarily so ; the sums given for furs do not coincide with the value of thi^ furs traded for with them, because the musk-rat, or the less valuable furs, are i)aid for at a hiu;her rate ; were the Company to pay for the finer furs at the same rate, tlie Indians would hunt up the hiier funs and destroy them off, as has been done all along t\: frontier, and we should then require to reduce the pri{!e for the musk-rat anu the inferior furs, and the Indians would not hunt them Jit all ■ the Indians would never understand our varjing the prices of the furs according to the prices here; the consequence woidd be that the Indian would not be a bit better oft", and he would kill up all the finer animals and leave the tnusk-rat and ordinary furs unafft-cted. 376. You hav.' stated that, in your opinion there is a jwrtion of the territory now belonging to the Huds(m's Bay Company to the south, which may be at no distant period availal)le for the puq)oses of settlement ; what is your opinion, in that respect, with regard to that vast district of country which lies to the north of the region which you hav,^ referred to ? — As far as I can answer, we could not grow wheat. At Moose Factory, in latitude .■> 1 °, barley would not ripen ; you could not depend upon it. Potatoes were verj' variable ; sometimes they would give five or six fold ; that was the highest I saw, I think, during 10 years ; sometimes t he crop yielded scarcely the seed. 377. Do you beUeve that, under any circumstances, there would be the slightest probability of settlenrent taking place in that great district of country within the next 20 years, for instance? — I think decidedly not; it must be pushed up from the south ; I mean, not to pay ; people might settle. No person would go there to settle unless he was paid for it, and paid well. I apply my answer to the wooded country. 378. You think there would be no inducement for persons to go there except for the purposes of fur trading ? — Only that ; and then they would require to have the exclusive right to trade ; any opposition would do away with any profits or advantages from it to a great extent. 379. What, in your opinion, would be the consequences of throwing open the present exclusive system of fur trading to the public generally, and letting any- body who chose go and trade for furs there, and kill the fur-bearing animals ? — The effect would be, the introduction of spirits among the Indians again, and the demoralization of the Indians. 380. bo you think that the effect would be the extirpation of the fur-bearing animal ? — In a great measure ; it would lead to that, because trappers would be sent in. People would come up and kill the animals themselves instead of leaving the Indians to hunt over the grounds ; they would kill them at all seasons, whereas the Hudson's Bay Company discourage the killing them in the summer time ; they discourage the Indians from killing them in the breeding season. 381. Do you consider the fur trade in its very nature to be necessarily and essentially a monopoly ?— I think that to continue it regularly it requires to be a monopoly in some hands something similar to what it is now. 382. Would not the effect of throwing it open be that it would give a great stimulus to it for the next few years, and absolutely destroy it afterwards ? — 0.25. D 2 Yes, ./. Rae, Esq., m.d. 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE #i i i !l i if i fe 1 '? J. Kae, Esq., m.d. Yes, and wiien the fur-bearin; nninialH were hunted up, the country would be left n wreck. 33 February 1857. 383. What wouUl be the effect of such a process upon the Indian tribes ? — Most injurious, I should fancy. ;384. You say because spirits would be intr(jduce(l ? — That would be a great injury. They woidd get much better paid for their furs for a time, but tiie effect after, say eight, or 10, or 12 years, or I will not say what number of years ; but after a lapse of years, not n very long period, would be to demoralize the Indians ; they would kill up the principal finer furs, and it would do no good to any person, because the parties coming in, if there was opposition, could not make a protit. 385. Do you think that it would be possible to i)rovide, by some arrangement with the Hudson's Bay Company, for the retention of the fur trade in their hands in those regions which are fit for nothing but the fur trade, and can be only fit for the fur trade for some time to ccme, and at the same time to open up, for the purposes of colonization, all such parts of the country as it is at all reasonable to suppose within the next 20 years, for instance, could be settled and colonized: — I should be rather at a loss to give an opinion upon that subject, as I have not studied the circumstances ; it would be very difficult to make the arrangement ; it would be an excellent one, I believe, if it could be effected. 386. You think that if it could be done it would be a desirable arrangement to make ? — A very desirable one indeed. 387. M'hy do you think that it could not be done? — I do not say that it could not be done, but it would be difficult ; I could not give a reason why it should not be done. 1 have not studied the subject 388. I believe the Rus.sians have a fur-trading establishment on the extreme north-west point of North America ? — Yes ; it comes in contact with Mackenzie's River, the district of which I was in charge for one season. 380. Are you aware of any arrangement which the Russian Company have made with the Hudson's Bay Company, by which the most valuable portion of their fur-trading territory is leased to the Hudson's Bay Company on certain conditions ? — There was an arrangement of that sort some years ago ? — I cannot say whether it is still in force ; it was a Ictase not of the whole, but of the strip of land whi(!h you will see in the charts running along the shore. 300. Do you know what were the motives of the Russian Company for coming to that arrangement ? — I do not. 391. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] You say that you were in charge of the dis- trict on Mackenzie's River ; can you state to the Committee the climate and the capabiliti 's of the land there .' — The climate is a severe one ; but we grew barley at Fort Simi)son, in latitude 62o or 63", I think ; we grew barley at Fort Liard ; we grew barley at the Yukon, which is close to the Russian territory ; that is a post which was established some time ago ; we could grow wheat at no place in the district ; barley is grown at all the posts except three. Fort Norman. Peel's River, and Fort Goodhope, which ^re far down the river. 392. Mr. Adderley.] In what year were you on Mackenzie's River ? — In 1849-50. 393. Have you been at long intervals of time on the same spot? — I have been four years there at different times ; I was twj years wintered there in the expedition, but I was only one year in charge 0/ the district. 394. Did you see anything of the Red River settlement at long intervals of No ; I was only there part of a winter on two occasions, and once in time ?■ spring. 395. settled You cannot speak to any alteration of climate in spots which have been — No, I cannot ; but I can say with regard to the tract of country of which we are speaking, namely, the woody country, that there is an iniluencc against its being affected by clearance, which does not exist in other parts of thi world. There is the large Hudson's Bay opening up to the north, whei*e theic is a continual flow of ice during the whole summer ; it is frozen up seven or eight months in the winter, and in the summer season there is a constant influx of ice which keeps the climate colder than it otherwise would be for per- haps 100 or 200 miles inland in all directions ; that is an influence which does not exist elsewhere, and which would affect the climate, I think. 396. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] While you were at Mackenzie's River, you, I dare SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 29 dare say, visited Hanks' or Barinp; Island r— I visited WoUaston and Victoria 7. iiff?, E«q, m, d. Lands, I surveyed ail the southern coasts there. 397. You were not on Banks' Island : — No. I was not so far north. a;? Februnry 1857. 398. Then you cannot speak to the natural productions of that land ? — No ; there is nothing to he found on tiie neighbouring lands, the WoUaston and Victoria Lands, except limestone ; a little trap and sandstone rock are seen. 399. I thought that coal was to be found on Banks' Island ?— -They have found that there, l)ut on the land that I was over there is no symptom of coal ; tlie whole coast is bare limestone. 400. Is it a coal or an ignite r — I am not quite sure. I have seen none of the f.])fcimen8. I think it is a coal ; there are no great (|uantities of it found. 401. Are animals found on it? - ''^s; reindeer and musk ox. 402. Does the musk ox require a very cold climate r — GeneroUy ; it is seldom seen south of the Arctic Circle. 4(»3. Mr. Lozve.'\ You heard Colonel Lefroy express some doubt whetixor the Company did all they could for the Indians in the matter of goods being sent out ; what do you think on that subject ? — I have never met with that myself. .]04. What do you understand by it? — What Colonel Lefroy, I think, alluded to, was the deficiency of ammunition for a year or two at the Athabasca and the Mackenzie Rivers. ^105. Ammunition to be supplied to the Indians : — Yes; I have heard a different reason for that, from that given by Colonel Lefroy. The gentleman iu charge of those districts appeared to be very close and anxious to make a very large traffic at a very little expense ; and goods were actually forced upon him from the depot at York Factory ; I have authority for saving so ; and more goods were actually sent up than the gentleman asked on his requisition. 406. Was that the only defect r — That was the principal one. 407. Do you think that it would be a good plan if the Company were to furnish goods in great abundance, and with great facility to the Indians r — Clearly, and they do so generally ; it '3 their object both to clothe the Indians well and to give them plenty of ammunition, because the better they are fed, and the better they are clothed, the better they will hunt. 408. Do you give them those things, or do they trade for them? — They get them in advance ; they get their goods all upon credit ; not to keep them under subjection to the Company ; but the Indian is so improvident tliat if he were paid in the spring he would waste everything before winter. Several attempts have been made to do it. and their debts have been cancelled to them ; but it could never be done except at two or three of the forts, where we gave them employment in the summer, when they sometimes earned from 12/. to 25 L worth of goods in a season. 409. Mr. ('harks Fitzwilliam.'] Does that mean 2a I. worth of goods at the price of the country, or in tlie market in London? — At fifty per cent, on the prime cost here, which we put on for charges of freight, loss, damage, and loss of interest. Let me add, to show that this per centage is not exorbitant, that our servants buy goods, and take them up from the Bay to the United States, at St. Mary's, and sell their clothes to the Americans, a profit being thus made. • 4 1 o. Lord Hlanley.] You say that 50 per cent, upon the prime cost in England is the rent-charge to tne Indians ? — That is the tariff to the servants ; and in supplying the Indians at that price the Indians can gain by their labour at that rate, goods to the value of 12 /. to 25 1, in the summer season. 411. Are the prices of goods sold to the Indians uniform thoughout the district, or is there any increase consequent upon the greater distance in the case, for instance, of forts upon the Mackenzie ? — The tariff is increased there ; it is higher ; but to show that it is not exorbitant, compared with other traders, we sell our goods at Mackenzie's. River, at Fort Simpson, upwards of 100 per cent, cheaper than they are sold in the Russian settlements over in the Russian territory, and the Hudson's Bay Company's goods have much further to go. 412. Do you know whether the Russian Company has any monopoly or not? — It is a government thing ; of course it is a monopoly. 413. Then you are merely comparing one monopoly with another monopoly ? — Yes ; at Fort Simpson we have no opposition, and we sell the goods at that rate. 0.25. »3 414. Is 30 mini: IKS OF KVIDl NCK TAKliN BEFORK THK i J. Rue, Eiq., M. b. 93 February 1857. I i.ii Mill' II if |,;!t 414. Is it not u fact tliat in tliosr pnrts of the territory which l)(>rcl(*r ui>oti Canmhi and tlic I'nitcd Siatt.s there hu« l)een a good deid of troul)le witli interlopers r — Yes ; and there lii^her jiriees are given for the furs, eonse(niently all tile finer furs have been killed »>p ; the oppohition does not pay ; tlure are no profits. 41 '). in tho»e districts has not the Company, on various oaravions, paid large sums to traders to take themselves out of the country r— Never that 1 heard of. I have heard of the. Company buying their furs, and taking the traders into the service fretpiently, which I tiiink a very had plan. 41 1). Buyu^g oflF their opposition r — 1 never knew anything of that kind, hut I think it a bad plan to buj- up their furs at any time ; if they are admitted into the service and make a little money, they use it against the company afterwards ; they frequently have done so. 4 1 7. Mr. Ucll.^ Do you think that the settlement of the Indians is advantageous or disadvantngeous to the fur trade ? — I should think it is not disadvantageous, because the winter is the time at which they hunt ; consequently they can employ the whole summer seacon to cultivate the pround, and it would make them better off; I believe that the settlement of Indians at Norway House hunt as well as they did before. 41 5. Do you know why attempts have not been made to settle them at other forts ? — There have been nttempts, that is to say, it was attempted at Moose Fuctory when I was there. 419. Which Moose Factory do you mean?— T*ie one at James's Bay; I have known seed potatoes given, which is the only crop that can be grown there with ("ertainty ; tools have been given, and ground that had been cultivated, and food for a few days ; they would plant their potatoes and never come back to attend to them ; I have known that done two seasons while I was at the Moose Factory. 42Q. Have the missionaries who have been anxious to civilise them been encouraged to do so ■ — They have, wherever it is pnwiticable, but I cannot speak of other parts of the country except at Moose, where the climate is not very suitable for growing, 42). Mr. Gro^aH.\ You stated that at Moose Factory an attempt had been made to settle the Indians by giving them seed and ground for potatoes r — Yes. 422. Were the Indians that you referred to the ordinary residents of that place .' — Yes ; they cam'? in to trade, to barter there. 423. Did they return to the factory after they had 80'-»»' the potatoes ? — They returned frequently, and they left them to get destroye3 ; they never looked at them again ; they never thought it worth while to (fig them out or hoe them out. 4J4. Did they know the potato practically f— Perfectly well ; they used to be supplied at the forts with potatoes when they came in, and they knew the use ot them. * 425. Mr. Bel^ Then do you attribute that circumstance to the particular character of those Indians, because I have read that on the western side of the Rocky Mountains the Indians sow potatoes in large quantities for their subsist- ence ? — Yes ; they are a different race ; we have found that although the Indian works well in the Company's service be will not settle down generally ; there are many exceptions. I cannot speak of the west side of the mountains ; i know from hearsay that what you have stated is correct. 42G. Do you know what is the cause of the failure of the experiment in the place to which you allude, for it has answered in some places ; at the Red River Settlement, for instance, and Norway House, if not in other parts ? — It has not answered fully in either place ; they never become great farmers, and I believe it arises from a fondness for the chase ; they, object to settle down anywhere for a length of time. 427. Have the half-breeds the same objection to settle down as the pure Indians ? — The French half-breeds have, but the English half-breeds have not so much so. 428. Is there much union of the English and the Indian races going on? — There is ; it arcise from the Company's servants and people marrying Indian women ; there is not so much of it now as there was originally, because many of the half-breeds are growing up, and they intermarry with them instead. 429. Have SEMTT COMMITTEK ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANV. 31 430. Have you h«!iird tho Htateraunt, tluit south of the Saskntchewnu River J. Jia*, Eiq., u.d. the Knj. I low far north have you travelled '« .. .1 <'vir lit \\w Ke5- When you pn.s8ed tlirouifli Ued Uiver and afterwards through .Minesota. did you sec any great difference between the uppearant e of tliat eoinitry roumJ the ReaneM, are Hold ^3 I'tibruary 1837. to the Indian at a oouiparatively chea|) rate ; there iH no fixed iMT-<;entaKe u|>on tiietn. 478. tio that in fact there is no tariff at all to the Indian? — I never made out the tariff, hut thlM in the way in which we did it. Supposing there wqh a valuable Hkin, we could not ])ay the Indian for that in the name proportion nn its valiu'. 479. I am not asking that quetttion ; I am asking you whether you do not put your own price upon the goods you hcU to the Indian, withotit regard to any tariff" whatever?-- Exactly ho, but there is a fixed price that the Indian perfectly understands; there is no regular p»T-centage put on. 480. You lived some time at York ? — At Moose, in James's Bay. 481. Do you know what the tariff was there to tlie Indian r— Yes ; as far as I remember, it was from 'i#. Gd. to 3 s. for what we called u made beaver. 48^. What was the tariff upon goods taken from England and Hold to the Indian there ? — I do not know that ; I did not makt? out the tariff. 483. Were you there 10 years without ever learning that fact? — Yes; it is difficult to learn. 484. Why difficult to learn ? — Because I find that they have no fixed tariff made out upon the plan you have spoken of, wherever it is. There is no fixed per-centage put on the goods anywhere, wherever we have traded with them, or wherever any person else has traded with them. 48.5. Mr. Lowe,'] Do you ask the Indians different prices for goods at differ- ent times '.' — Never ; we cannot vary the price. 486. A beaver skin will always command the same amount of European goods ? — At the same place. 487. Mr. Roebuck.] Are there not varieties of beaver skins ? — Yes ; but the beaver skin is the standard ; a large beaver making one skin. 488. Do you give the same price for every beaver skin ? — Certainly not ; two small ones go for a large beaver ; two martens go for a large beaver. 489. Who determines whether it is a small or a large beaver?— The Indians themselves determine it ; they know it perfectly well, and so does any man who is acquainted with it ; any man who looks at it can tell the age of a beaver. 490. Lord Stanley.] When you say that a beaver skin commands a fixed price, yo'i mean, of course, a skin of the average size ?— A skin of the average size ; a gouu large skin killed iu inter or in spring. 491. Mr. Cfiarlta FUt' i tarn.] When you talk of a -hing costing so many beavers, you mean that they may give a beaver skin and five or six racoon skins, or marten skin, m the same way that in the buffalo country they talk of a thing being worth «io manj' robes r —Yes. 492. If you boi;osing that a British colony was founded, and thai the Government of ( anada was to be extended to the Red River, and no railway was to be made, how could communication be kept up b«;tweeti the seat of government in Canada and the colony of the Red River in winter ? — There is no regular communication without going through the States ; there could be no regular and quick communication. 588. If any one now wanted to go, say from Toronto to the Red River, in wintiT, how would iie go ? — Through the States, by railway as far as it went, and he would tlien cross over the prairie country, which is unsettled, with horses or dogs. .589. Mr. Kiithiiird] Was the 400 miles that you travelled to St. Paul's with horses ? — Dogs ; horses coull not travel ; the snow was too deep ; it was in February or March. ,590. ( "ould you have done it with horses in the summer .' — Yes, it is practicable in summer both with horses and with waggons ; light waggons go regulftrly across the prairie plains. 591. Mr. Eduard Eilicc] Do you know the jS'ipissing at the head of the Ottawa ? — I have never been there, but 1 know where it is. 502. Takiiiir that to be the end of the raihv • concession, liow far is it in a straight line from the Red River '. — It is difficu o say, but I think it is some- where about from 1,000 to 1,200 miles ; it is on the charts. 593. I understand you to say that you have been through the district ex- tending fron^. there, and arc able personally to speak to the sort of country which it is ?~I have traversed that country once, and I have passed through Lake Superior several times by water ; the whole of the shores of Lake Supe- rior are perfectly impracticabie ; there is a little cultivable ground at the mouth of each river, but otherwise it is an immense rocky tract. ,'',94. Mr. lioelmc/t.] Supposing you were going from Lake Erie up to Lake Superior, could not you go in a steamer up Lake Erie, and from Lake Erie into Lake Huron, and from Lake Hui'oii into Lake Superior r— Yes, in summer. 595- Mr. t to Lake rth of the naik'£, and leave our ; was the re were a 1 to Long waters of §oo(ls is it to travel for boats 1 swampy e are some iractieable ni Canadu ter of the out that table, but of Lake n the air, ; physical far as the ate of the )vernment > be made, ■nment in ID regular lo regular . River, in IS it went, ttled, with 'aul's with it was in )racticable regularly ud of the ■ is it in a t is some- listrict ex- )f country through h. Roelmch.} So that if the country were peoplrj at Lake Nipigon, there would be a regular communication by sleighs ? — I cannot say ; the route that I jiassed by is inii)racticable to sleighs. 602. Are you at all aware of tlie richness of the northern shore of Lake Superior in metal r — I have understood that there are mines ; at least that there is copper ore there. G03. Is that no attraction, do you think? — I understood tnat the geologists, who visited them, said that the}- would scarcely pay for working them ; they are not equal to the mines on the south sliore. I have not examined them myself; 1 only speak from hearsay oti that point. O04. Therefore j'ou cannot say whether that county has inducements to settlement or not ? — I car^ say that it has not the least inducement of having fine agricultural land to settle upon along the north shore ; it is a perfectly barren, rock}- coast, perfectly iron bound, except at the mouths of some of the little streams where there is a little alluvial deposit of land, where little l)atciies may be cultivated ; generally speaking, it is a rocky, barren coast with ridges. 605. Do you know the northern shore of Lake Huron? — I never came along that side. 606. Ha\ J you passed over from Lake Huron to Lake Nipissing ? — I never was there. 607. Then the questions put to you about Lake Nipissing you cannot answer?— No. I said that 1 could not answer them. I never passed that way. 608. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Will jou describe upon the map the line of country that 30U have been through, starting from Fort WilHam ; where did } ou go to, going up towards Nipigon r— I passed directly from Fort William up to Lake Nipigon ; I then struck east to a place called Long Lake, about 100 miles. 60Q. What sort of a country was it between Lake Nipigon and Long Lake ? —It was low and s»vampy. I jjassed through a number of little lakes and rivers, and swamps, apj)arentlv ; they were all covered up with ice at the time. Then from Long Lake I went to the Pice lliver, a difficult tract of country ; that is on Lake Superior. 610. What sort of a country was it between Long Lake and Pice River?— \ ery rough and rugged ; our dogs got knocked up ; we could scarcely use theiii ; we were oljliged to carry our clothes on our backs. 621. Which way did the rivers run there? — Nearly north and south generally. 612. Mr. Roebuck.] The Pice River falls into Lake Superior ?— Yes. 613. Mr. Edward Ellice.] And the water the other way ran to the north, to Hudson's Bay ? — I did not go so far up, I was only at the watershed at the head waters. 614. Did there appear to be no valley in that direction, or no part eligible for settlement? — I saw nothing, excepting that the country which I went over was low ; It looked swampy, like most of the watersheds there. t'i5- Where did you goto from Pice River? — To Michipicoton. 0'«5- E4 616. There '* * -jvl 4(1 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ! 1; W'l ,:• J. i?ac, Ksq., M.D. 6 10. Tht'ie you oiime down into Lake Superior r — Yes. From that I came to St. Mary's ; we were oblii^ed to Ivavv our dof^s behind. S3 February 1857. 617. Sir Jofm Pakhir/ton.] How did you get on ? — We walked on foot, and carried our baggage and provisions on the backs of rnvn. It is one of the roughest countries I ever passed through. 618. .Mr. Edward Ellicc] With respect to the mines on Lake Superior, are you aware of the number of them, or the avaihible state of the work at those mines ;— I am not. G19. But a great many companies liave attempted to work them? — Several. t520. Both on the American and on the Canadian side r — On both sides, ijji. The general result has been not very profitable ? — Not on the north side, because thiy have given them all up, or most of them.. There are only a few of the American mines paying where they get large masses of copper. 622. I believe that the great difficulty with the copper there is from its extreme purity, and the great masses that it is in, so that they cannot easily break it ? — ( )n the south side ; but they have found nothii'g of that kind ott the north side that I am aware of. 623. But all the coppvr is actually in large solid masses, requiring great force to break it ? — I have seen pieces of one or two tons, and pieces are found much heavier than that. 624. Sir John Pakingioti.] What was the length of time occupied in your journey from the Red River to Toronto ? — To St. Mary's, two months ; about 60 days. C25. It is a journey rarely made I suppose?— Not by the same person; there are generally relays of men at each post ; each eight or ten days. 626. The journey is made from post to post? — Yes; by different relays of men. 627. In that way is the journey often made during the winter months? — Only once or twice when the express comes down ; the winter express used to come that way communicating with all the posts bringing information down to Canada. 625. What is the distance between the posts .'—Generally 100 or 200 miles; by the route followed it is more. 629. Mr. Grogan.l You said that the express went by Lake Nipigon and by Long Lake; did the express travel that route because there were posts there / — Partly, and partly because they cannot travel along the lake on account of the ice breaking away sometimes with a gale of wind, which renders it \ery dangerous ; the shore is so precipitous that the ice is apt to break away and prevent travelHng. 630. Are there no posts lietween Lake Nipigon and tb" north shore? — No. (731. It is the only route that is practicable? — It is the only route that the Company's people go generally ; Ihey make a rush sometimes across the Bay, but they do not do so generally, it being so unsafe. 6^2. Mr. IMl.l Are there any whales in Hudson's Bay ? — I saw a few up to the north. 6y^. You do not know whether the Hudson's Bay abounds with them ? — No, not the southern part ; I saw a few in the northern part, towards Repidoc Bay. 634. Are there any s€>als? — There were plenty of white* porpoises, and many seals, and some walruses the last time I was there. 63.5. Do they afford a large quantity of 01! ? — Yes ; the Esquimaux kill them. (136. Tiiere are no British fisheries ? — N:^ ; none are e tablished there. (137. They are not allowed, I suppose '.'- No one ever attempted it that I am aware of. O3S. Do you know whether that is part of the Hudson's Bay monopoly? — It is part of the Hudsim's Bay lerritor}-. 630. So that no ships can come into the Hudso"'") Straits to fish for whales ? — I suppose so ; there sire not many whales. 640. Do you sujipose there would be a sufficient quantity of fish of that kind to support a settlement? — I think not; when I went in 184(5-7 I saw a good many whales; when 1 went in 18.')3 and 1834 I saw only one or two small ones. 641. At what part of Hudson's Bay ? — Inside Southampton Island. 642. Mr. Edward Ellice.] How long is the water so free from ice that vessels could hunt the whales ? — About two months ; it is very dangerous ; it is full of currents ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 41 currents; it nearly wrecked Sir Georjje Back's vessel, and prevented another J. Rae, E»<\., m.u. gentleman, Captain Lyon, twice from getting up there, whose vessel got nearly destroyed ; the currents are very strong and it is very dangerous ; 1 got on ^3 February 1857 because I had boats and got inside the ice in shoal water. 643. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] Do you know of any coal being discovered anywhere on the shores of Hudson's Bay? — I am not aware of any. 644. Mr. Grogan ] Along the journey which you have dtcf^ribed to us as having taken, were there any houses or any people ? — None, except the posts that I have mentioned. 045. The whole of the rest of the country is unoccupied and desolate ? — Quite, except b .idiana. 646. Mr. K'l -ird.] From your evidence 1 gather that you entirely approve of the rule of the Company, in not selling spirits to the Indians ? — Perfectly ; it is the best rule that was ever made. 647. Have you compared tliem with those who have access to spirits?— Yes, I have seen the effect ; the Indians are much easier to deal with, more attentive, and better in e\ cry way. 648. You also, I gather, approve of settling and attempting to civilise them ; you think that it may be done with success ? —I think it is a good thing ; if it could be possibly done it would be beneficial in every way ; it i-* not even opposed to tlie Company's trade, because tlie time when they would be employed jn the settlement is not the time when they hunt. 6^19. 'J he scheme has been partially successful in the Red River? — Yes, but very partially, because most of them hunt in the winter, and they do not depend upon the farms. ti50. The settling and the civilising have never been opposed by the Company in any way ? — Noi that I am aware of. 6,5 1 , Chairman.'] Still, do you thi.ik that the constitution of the Company is such as to make it very well fitted for the management of settlements except upo.^ -i very small scale ? — I speak of the Indians settling down, not of others settling ; not of colonising, not of strangers coming in. os-t. When you use the word " settlements," you mean mere Indian villages? — Indian villages and settlements ; local trading places. t)53. Mr. Riielmc/'.] But surely a fur company is opposed to colonisation, is it not? — 1 should fancy so, geneniUy. 6.S4. 'Iherefore, insomuch as the Hudson's Bay Company is a capital fur Comj)any, it is a very bad coloniser ? — I should fancy so ; it never professed to be a colonising Comi)any. 65,'). Mr. Lowe.] With regard to the half-breeds, do you consider them a material from which an afirieultural population can be formed ?— I believe that the EngUsh half-breeds may be so ; they a' very excellent race generally, but careless and improvi(ieiit. 6,,G. Will they settle down and cultivate the ground? — There will be a difficulty about it, because they generally prefer the hunting. 6[)-]. Have they settled in any great numbers? — In the Red River to a con- siderable extent. 6^6. Have they given up hunting altogether ? — Not so far as I know. They generally hunt as long as tluy are able ; they go as voyageurs in the summer, and hunt in the autunm and winter. ()5(). And iliey do not really cultivate the ground much? — Many of them do, but the generality of them prefer the sort of wild life of huuting. (i(')0. Are they troublesome people to govern ? — Not so far as I am aware. 661. The Comi)any has no difficulty in ruhng them, and keeping them in order ?— I think not ; I speak particularly of the English half-breeds. I have generally hail them with me on my expeditions, and found them good practi- eable men 1162. Chairman.] Is the number of the half-breeds much shuuld think it is; where tliey are colonised, they are increasing largely. 663. Mr. Charles Filzwilliam.] You spoke of the settlement at the Red River just now, as if it was a settleiixent of Indians ; there are very few Indians there, J believe ? — There are a good many at both ends. fiti^. I mean full-blooded Indians ? — A good many Crecs are settled there, and others. o,2j. F 665. They increasing ? — I 4fl MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J, Rae, Eiq.i m. n. 66 'y. 666. They do not farm, do they ?— Thtiy do to a small extent. Are they not the only iiistntices ol Indians, except those that liave l)(>en S 'i ■1- n by experience that thf; red man is opposed to civilised life r — Exactly so ; there is no doubt 93 February 1857. surrounded by the jiopulatioi) of Canada, that you know of, who have settled down as farmers / — There is one instance in the States that I have heard of. 667. Where ?— I forget the name of the trib»'. C6S. The Cherokees ? — Yes ; they have settled down, and have really become civilised ; tliey have their own Member going to the Legislature, and they have schools. 6(19. The Cherokees are not now inhabiting the ground where they were originally found ? — No ; they have changed their ground, and also so have some of the othfrs ; some iiave immigrated from their own lands to the Red River. 670. Air. Roebuck.'] In the whole history of America has there been one instance of a half-breed settlement continuing up to the present time ? — I am not able to ansv .• that question. 671. Has it uot been found that kind of life which we call about it. 672. And wherever the civilised man comes the red man disappears ? — Yes, that is the result, generally speaking. 673. Mr. Gordon.] In a letter from Sir George Simpson, which is to be found in some papers laid before Parliament in 1842, he says : " Our diflferent trading establishments are the resort or refuge of many of the natives who, from age, infirmity, or other causes, are unable to follow the chase ; they have the benefit of the care and attention, free of expense, of our medical men, of whom about 1!^ are usually employed in the seivice; every trading establishment being in fact an Indian hospital." How far does your experience as a medical man in the service of the Company bear that out r — Wherever we act as medical men our services are given gratuitously. We go to a distance if an Indian is at a distance, and have him taken to a fort, and he is fed and clothed there. And it is no uncommon thing to hear the old Indians, when unfit for hunting, say, " We are unfit for work ; we will go and reside at a fort." That is the ordinary feeling which prevailed in the country. AUhough there are no medical men up at the different posts (theYe may be the number Sir Cieorge has mentioned scattered over the country), yet medicines are sent up to all the posts in regular supplies. 674. If that attendance were abkcd it would always be afforded ? — Yes. 675. Was it frequentlj afforded? — Frequently so ; but those places on the coast are liable to much mo. ' disease than ]Aace& inland. ()7(i. Then, in ,hort, you think that if a statement were made, that tlie Directors of the Hudson's Bay Company considered that it was their business to attend to the Company's own servants, but njt to any other class of the population, it would be a false charge ? — Perfectly erroneous ; in fact the Indian is more rejidily attended to generally than the others. 677. And as a rule the medical men ajjpointed by the Company would not consider it their sole duty to attend to the Company's servants?— Certainly not ; they are there for the Indians as much as for the Company's people. 678. Mr. Roebuck.] How long did you say that you dwelt at Moose Factory? — ^Ten years. 67J). During that time what was tlie average number of tiie worn-out hunters who lived there upon your charity r — I cannot exactly tell that. The popu- lation of the place was. I think, about 1 80 altogether ; few Indians came there ; but there were generally two or three or four old families, or six sometimes, pensioners at the place. They called at the Fort ; they were there regularly every week ; they had their encampment at the jjlace, and they went and hunted at hitervals as they were al)lc, and if they were not able to get food enough, they had it given to them. (180. How niciny people would those families number?— Perhaps 12; perhaps 13 or 14 altogether. (iSi. Then I understand you tliat at the Moose Factory there was an average of about 12 old Indians ?—SVs, women and men 6S-2. That was the sum of the great advantage that the Indians round about Moose Faetory derived, namely, 10 or 12, or, say, 14 or 1(5?— The whole popu- lation there is about 180, and if any of them came in and were imfit to hunt, they SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 43 they were received at the 1' ort ; we never forced them into the Fort ; but if J. Hat, Eii|,, m.d. they came and asked asHistnnce and wished to stay, tliey did so. 683. Mr. Labouchere wishes to know whether anything is done with respect '3 Jeb'uwy >857. to vaccination ? — Yes ; vaccine matter is sent to all the posts. I may mention n curious fact, which is, that in the year J 8;jr> the sm lU-pox was brought up by a stiamboat from the States. A gentleman at the Sa.»katchewan vaccinated all the Cree Indians that came in ; and there was scarcely a single case occurred among the tribe ; we supposed it was because they had all been vaccinated ; whereas deaths took place amongst the more distant tribes, near the Missouri. The small-pox was brought by steamboat up the Missouri, and was brought over to the Saskatchewan by a quantity of horse-stealers, who heard that the disease was at the Missouri, and went to steal horses there. They found the Indians dying by hundreds ; they took the disease with them, and most of them died upon the road. 684. Taking you from Moose Factory to the mouth of the Mackenzie River, where you lived ; how long did you live there ? — About nine months at Fort Simpson, and two years at Bear Lake, which is in the Mackenzie district. C85. How many worn-out hunters lived there, deriv'ng charity from you ? — I do not remember ; I think there were about two or three families whilst I was there ; at the one post. 680. Sav six people ? — Yes, about that at that time ; but it Viiries according to the ,)rivations which the Indians have suffered. 687. Mr. Gurney.] Did I understand you rightly, that in addition to the worn-out hunters who were resident, there was also gratuitous medical advice given to the other Indians as they happened to require it ? — To every one that came, or that we heard of. fiSS. Sir John Pa/cingtuti.'j How far south do the Esquimaux come? — Along the shore of Hudson's Bf^y ; they come to Churchill, in latitude 59°. 689. Do they come down as fr.r south as the C reat Slave Lake ? — They do not go inland at all ; the furthest inland that they go is up the Back River, that we know of now. 690. '1 hey always keep to the rivers or the sea r — Yes, it is generally found .so. fig). Is tliere in the intervfil a large tract of land between the North American Indians and the Esquirraux ? — Certainly ; a sort of debatable land ; and between each tribe of the Esquimaux themselves there is a debatable land ; for instance, the tribe of Esquimaux about the Copper Mine River do not seem to mv to associate or mix with those to tlie W^est or East ; when any one has gone there, they have found that they have no tools, either RuRsian or Hudson's Hay, among them ; nothing that could be traced either to the Russians or to the Hudson's Bay Company. 692. The Esquimaux, I presume, from what you say, are different tribes, but not different races ? — Not different races, I think. 693. What is the extent of the debatable land between the Indians and the '" Esquimaux?— It varies according to the circumstances; the Chipewyans and the Esquimaux frequently meet at Churchill ; then the Louchoux and the Esquimaux meet again on the Iilackenzie, but on the Copper Mine River the interval between them is j'buut CO or 100 miles. 604. Mr. Groaaii.] How long at any time did you reside at the Red River Settlement ?— About two months at one time ; that was the longest period I was there. 695. Do you know the regulations of the American companies with regard to hunting ; do they give a larger price relatively to their value for the inferior skins, as the Hudson's Bay Company does ? — They sell ..neir goods nearly at the same price as the Hudson's Bay Company, only the goods are inferior ; Indians, frequently from the Americjin side, come over to the Hudson's Bay ( ompnny to get good guns or a good article, and they get them .'is cheaply as in the Spates ; that 1 have heard from hunters who have been among the Americans. Another point I may mention, namely, the proportion of spirits which is acquired on the American frontier; when I travelled down from the Red River to Crow Wing to the Minesota territory, nearly every American Indian that 1 found tr.ivi'lling, had bottles of spirits with him. o..'j. K 2 696. Mr. 44 MINUTES OF EVIDF.NCE lAKEN BEFORE THE /. Ba0, Em|., m.d. 696. Mr. Charles Filtwilliam.] That country which you travelled throug;h — — — — from Ret! River down to ('row Win^ w«w a Ho-cnlled HCttled country, whs it 33 February 1857. not ? — No. 697. It formed what is onlled in the States, Indian ten itory r— Perfectly so, OS much us in nti) of the Hudson'8 Bay Company's ferritory, wliere I paHHe(l through ; we came to little posts between Pembina and Crow VVin^. rt()8. I moan within the boundary of the Minesota territory ? — Yes. 699. Consequently these people who tradetl in this liquor were not the licensed Indian traders, nu>n who had paid money to obtain a licence to trade with the Indians, but they were the free settlers I — Yes, I think free settlers. 700. Over whom no company had any power whatever; an American tradmg company has no power over the free settler of Minesoia ? — The Govern- ment have ; they made it a rule that no spirits should be sohl to the Indians on or near the frontier ; that was what I understood ; whereas there they had abundance ; it was against the ruN's of the (ioveinuient for them to get it, but the Government could not prevent it. 701. C/iairman.\ Do you imagine that the American I'lir Trading Company does put any effectual clieck upon the sale of spirits to the Indians in their country ? — 1 cannot tell, because I have never been among tlicm. Jovis, 26' die Februarii, 1867. MEMBERS present: Mr. Adflrrley. Mr. Hell. Mr. BlHckbiiri). Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Clmiiet Fiizwiliiann. Mr. GliidRtdiie. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Greg'on. Mr. Giouan. Mr. Guriiev. Mr. I'eicy Herl)ert. Mr. Kiiinaird. Mr. Lahotichere. Mr. Lowf . Mr. Roi buck. Viscount S.iiidoii. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, in the Chair. Sir (ieorge Simpson, called in ; and Examined. Sir G. Simpton. 7^2. Chairman.'] I BELIEVE you hold an important situation in the adminis- tration of the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company i — I do. f6 February 1857. 703. What is it ? — I have been Governor of their territories for many years, 704. How long have you held that situation r — Thirty-seven years I have been their principal representative. 705. Mr. Edward Ellice.] As governor the whole time ? — Yes ; I have held the situation of governor the whole time. 706. Chairman.] What is the nature of your authority in that capacity? — The supervision of the Company's affairs ; the presiding at their councils in the country, and the principal direction of the whole interior management. 707. Where do you generally reside ? — 1 have resided for several years at the Red River Settlement ; 1 have resided in Oregon ; I have resided in Athabasca, and latterly I have resided in Canada. 708. Is there any fixed seat of Government within the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company? — There is no fixed seat of government, but there is a seat of council for the northern and the southern departments ; one at Norway House, at the northern end of Lake Winnipeg, and the other at Michipicoton, or Moose I'actory, for the southern department. 700. Your authority extends, I imagine, as well over Rupert's Land as over the territory which tlie Company holds by licence ? — Over the whole of the Company's affairs in North .America. 710. What SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 45 710. What is the nature of the rouncil which you have mentioned ?— The Sir 0. fliwpww. firincipnl officers of tlie (lomjMUiy, tht; ehief factors, are in«'mbcrH of council. f there is not a sufficient nuntluT of chief factors the number is made up by ''^ Februwy 1857. clilef trajler», who are the second class of partners, and all matters connectetl with the trade are discussed and determined at this council. 711. What is the nature of the authority of the council as distinguished from your own ; are they merely advisers r —They are advisers, and they give their opinions and vote njKi any q\iestion tiiat may be under discussion. 71^. Does the ultimate authority and decision reside in you solely, or is it with you in conjunction with tlie council ? — With me in conjunction with the romicil. 713. Do you mean that they could outiote you and prevent your doing any- thing which you thought proper r — ^They could outvote me, but it has never been so ; in the al)sence of the council my authority is supreme ; in tnivelliug through the country, or giving any direction connected with the management of the business, my authority must be acted upon until it be annulled or disallowed by the council or the Company. 714. Of course, having admi< istered the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany during so long a period, you are well acquainted with every part of their territories r — I have travelled through the greater part of the country ; I have not visited what are usually known as the Barren Grounds. 7 1 ,5. You are well acquainted with the western portion, as well as the eastern ? --Yes; I have not been in Mackenzie's River, but I have been in nearly all the other parts of the country ; my usual route in going up the country is from Montreal by Rainy Lake and Lake Winnipeg to Red River ; I have crossed the Uucky Mountains at three diiferent points to Ore;;on. 7 1 ti. Will you have the goodness to give to the Committee an account of your impressions of the character of the territory of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany in point of soil and climate, particularly with reference to its adaptatiun for the pur])oses of cultivation and colonisation "' — I do not think that any part of the Hudson's Bay Company's territories is well adapted for settlement; the crops are very uncertain. 717. Do you mean that observation to apply only to Rupert's Land or to the entire of the territory now administere y the Hudson's Bay Company?— 1 mean it to apply to Rupert's Land. 715. How would you describe the limits of Rupert's Land to the west? — The Rocky Mountains to the west. 719. Would you apply that observation to the district of the Red River ? — I And the country immediately behind it ■ — Yes. Is it not actually settled ?— I do not consider it well adapted for settle- Yes. 720. 7:1. meat. 722. Why so ? — On account of the poverty of the soil, except on the banks of the river. The banks of the river are alluvial, and produce very fair crops of wheat ; but these crops are frequentlj' destroyed by early frosts ; there is no certainty of the crops. We have been under the necessity of importing grain within these last ten years from the United States and from Canada, for the support of the establishment. 723. Have you an equally unfavourable opinion of the country on the Sas- katcliewan River ? — Yes ; the climate is more rigorous, and the crops are even less certain on that river ; the scarcity of timber also is a great bar ; there is little or no wood in the country. The present population of Red River have great difficulty in providir>.j^- wood for their immediate wants. 724. Is there any part of the territory of Rupert's Land towards Lake Superior that you think adapted for cultivation ? — Immediately upon the right bank of the Rainy Lake River cultivation might be carried on to advantage ; but there is merely a slip of land adapted for cultivation ; immediately behind arc deep morasses which never thaw. 7-.'5. Mr. aiatktotie.] Is that right bank of the Rainy Lake River in the Hudson's Bay Territory ? — Yes. 726. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Do you i uan by "never thaw" that in the summer, when the surface is thawed, it a person was to walk through that moraps his foot would get to the ice below ? — No, not immediately so ; but by digging deeper you would come to ice. F3 727. Chairman.'] MINUTES OF F.VIDENCE TAKEN HEFORE TME m il! if H m Sir n. Simptnn. "27. Chairman. | You have statetl that in UuiH'rt's liOnd you do not tliink then* is any t-xtcnf le. 7'j8. L)o yon apply the same observation to the land to the westward of the Rocky Mountains ? — In the Dritish territory I do, north of parallel" Wf ; it i8 a rugged, precipitous, mountainous country. 7 jy. Is the whole of it of that character - — Principally of that character. 731). Do y»)u know Vancouver's Island? — I have passed Vancouver's Island previously to its being British territory ; I cannot speak to it. 731. Do you considi^r Vancouver's Ishuul u-* being within the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No. 732. You do not mean your observations to api)Iy to that ? — No, not to Vancouver's Island. 733. Are you acquainted with the coast near Vancoiiver's Island and above it? — Yes, I iiave pone along the coast from Puget's Sound to the Hussion principal establishment at Sitka. 734. Do you believe that coast to be altogether unfavourabl'^ for the puq)08e8 of colonisation r — I believe it to be quite unfit for colonisation. 73,5. Do you know Queen Charlotte's Island? — I have not been on Queen Charlotte's Island. 73^1. Mr. Edward Ellice.] You confine your observation to the main land ? —Yes. 737. Mr. CHadsluiic] I think you have spoken of Rupert's Land as including, from west to east, the whole country, beginning from the Rocky Mountains and moving eastwards ? — Yes, to the shores of the Bay. 738. Do you understand that to have been the original signification of the temi Ruijcrt's Laud, dating from the period of the charter? — Yes, that it includes the land on all waters fulling into Hudson's Bay ; they form the bounda- ries of the territory. 739. There is a reference in the charter to the fall of the water, is there r — 1 cannot call that positively to mind ; that is the impression upon my mind, and I believe it is the general impression. 740. It is difficult, 1 suppose, for you to state what you would take as the northern boundary? — The northern boundary of Rupert's Land I call the Methy Portage and Luke, dividiiig the waters that fall into the Bay from those that fall into the Arctic Sea ; there is a height of land at the Methy Portage. 741. Taking the Methy Portiige as the northern boundary for that longi- tude, as you come eastwards the territory trends very much to the north ? — Yes. 742. And goes up to the Melville Peninsula, which seems to be about the northernmost part r — Yes. 743. Speaking of the whole of that country, as included in Rupert's Land, would you draw any material distinction between the climate of one part and the chraate of another ? — Yes ; the climate of the southern part of the country is not so rigorous as that of the northern ; the winters are not so long. 744. What wouM you sav was the length of the winter in the most favourably situated parts of the territoiy ? — Five and a half months, I should say, at Red River, which is the most favourable part of the country. 74,> Is there any part of the coast of Hudson's Bay, or James's Bay, which partakes of a comparatively good climate r— Certainly not. 746. Is the softening influence of the sea not much felt in any portion of it?— Not much; at York Factory, within about 18 inches or two feet of the surface, we come to ice. 747. Mr. Edward Ellice.] At all times of the year? — At ail times of the year. 748. Mr. Gladstone.'] Would that observation apply to James's Bay, even down to the southernmost point, viz., Moose Fort ? — I should say the climate is not niucii more favourable ; barley very seldom ripens there, and the pota- toes are exceedingly small, and the crops unproduclive. 74^. Irrespectively of the (luestion of north and south, is not there a good deal SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 47 madtt no allowance for the influences upon climate which are produced by settlement? — No; I am not aware that settlement does produce any material influence upon climate; 1 have not known it do so in C'anada; I have been in the Canudas for a great many years, and I do not find the climat«! im])roved ; I think the lost two winters have been the two most rigorous winters I hav' exijcrienccd in C'anada. 758. I suppo.se it is nik to be doubted that when n large district of countr) becomes populous, there is then an influence upon climate i — I have not seen it ; from my experience it is not so ; I think the climate of Canada is as severe as it has been at any time during the 37 years for which I have knov n the country. 7-,9. And tliat is true even with respect to the most settled and the most densely peopled parts of the country r — Yes. 7^)0. Taking the case of the country to the west of the Rocky Mountains, ] iinilerstand you to have described Vancouver's Island as upon the wholo favour- ably circumstanced with respect to clii.iute ? — 1 (Id not speak to ^ la .iver's Island ; I have never been there, except touching the northern j; \rt (vf the island in a steamer; the weather was unfavourable and I could not examine the island, 7(11. Taking the coast opposite to Vancouver's Island, is it h'ss favourably situated than Vancouver's Island ? — It is so ; it is rugged ; it is omy the southern end of Vancouver's Island that is favouraljlc for settlement ; the northern jiart is exceedingly rugged, of tht; same character as the opposite mainland coast. 7()2. Take the coast opposite tlie southern end of Vancouver's Island ; it has a south-western aspect, has it not ? — llie southern jjurt of the nminland has. 763. Is that as favourably circumstanced as Vancouver's Island itself? — I think not; it is not so favourable as the southern part of Vancouver's Island. 7(i4. AVhat is it that makes the portion of the mainlnnd opposite the southern part of Vancouver's Island less favourable for seltiemeii .an the island itself; — That portion in IJritish territory is exceedingly rafiycd and mounUunous, <;raggy, and there is a want of soil. 7(1,'). Is the mainland side of the channel there rugged, and the island side of the channel open and favourable, or are both .ides rugged ? — The island is less rugged than the niaiidnnd at the northern eiul of the island. 7()(). I am now speaking of the soutiiern viitl of the island and of the land • ward sid&of it ? — The Anurican side of the ehaimel is tlie same character of country. 707. Rugged ? — No, ojMin. 7('<8. What is tlie character of the maiidand o])posite tliat open country on Ihe landward side of tlie .southern end of tlie i.slaiid .' Tlie same character ; open. 7(>'.). Mr. Edward Ellicc] That is not Hritish territory ? — No ; that is Auierican ti-rritory ; that is south of 4!)". 770. Mr. Gladst'ine.\ Take it north of 49", between Fraser River and the water? —North of 49", north of Fraser River, the country is exceedingly rugged. 0.2 j. F4 771- I know I f 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir G. Simptim. 771. I know that your own experience and authority are very great; but do you think that the opinion which you have given of the climate of this territory a6 February 1857. jg the general opinion? — I think so ; at least it is my opinion, and I believe it is the general opinion. 772. Mr. Gordon.] If I understand you rightly, you think that no portion of Rupert's Land is favourable for settlement, but that some portions might be settled ? — Yes. 773. In your very interesting work of a "Journey Round the World," I find at page 45 of the first volume this description of the country between the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake : " From Fort I'rances downwards, a stretch of nearly 100 miles, it is not interrupted by a single impediment, while yet the current is not strong enough materially to retard an ascending traveller. Nor are the banks le jS favourable to agriculture than the waters themselves to navigation, resembling, in some measure, those of the Thames near Richmond. From the very brink of the river there rises a gentle slope of greensward, crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of birch, poplar, beech, elm, and oak. Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy to discern through the vista of futurity this noble stream, connecting, as it does, the fertile shores of two spacious lakes, with crowded steamboats on its bo=oin and jjopulous towns on its borders:" I suppose you consider that district favourable for population? — The right bank of t\\s river is favourable, with good cultivation ; that is to say, the soil is favourable ; the climate is not ; the back country is a deep morass, r.nd never can bf drained, in my opinion. 774. Do you see any reason to alter the opinion which you have there expressed ? —I do see that I bave overrated the importance of the country as a country for settlement. 77). Chairman.'] It is too glowing a description, you think ?^ExactIy so ; it is exceedingly beautiful; the bank js beautifully wooded, and the stream is very beautiful. 77r>. Mr. GladntoiK.] What is the character of the Saskatchewan, or of any of the principal branches of it as a stream, with regard to navigation ? —There are several long rapids in the Saskatchewan, at various points. I think a steamboat might, with the exception of those rapids, or by cutting canals round those rapids, ascend to Edmonton. 777. Ihat is oil the northern Saskatchewan ? — It is. 778. What would you say of the southern Saskatchewan ? — On the southern Saskatchewan there are fewer rapids. 77y. Are there long reaches which are wholly without rapids ?— Yes. 780. With a depth ample for navigation: — 1 here are chains of rapids below the junction of the two rivers. 781, At Nepeeween? — Yes; there are two very long chains of rapids; lO miles at one place, and seven or eight miles at another. 78J. Are there any long stretches of wator of navigable depth, without rapids, upon the branches of the Saskatchewan ?— Yes. 7S3. What is the longest stretch that you can remember: — Perhaps 50 or CO miles. 784. Mr. Grogai/.] Is it to be understood, then, that except for those rapids the northern branch would be navigable for steamers, aa you describe, up to Edmonton ? — Yes .; at the junction with Lake Winnipeg there is a very long rapid called the orand Rapid. 78.'',. \\ hat may be the length of it ?— From two to three miles 78(1. Those three rapids which you have pointed out would be the three obstacles to the navigation ? — There are several other smaller rapids ; there are a great many rapids, but those are the priu'ipul rapids. 787. Those are the rapids which you think would require expense to obviate them ? — Yes. 788. .Supposing that that expense should be incurred, and a canal, as you have suggested, sh>;ul(l be formed, would any didiculties of a seiious character, sufficient to impede navigation, exist between Lake Winnipeg and Edmonton : — In the s;)ring of the year the water of the whole river is exceedingly low ; I nave come down in a perfectly liijht boat, and we have been frequently under the necessity of getting out of the boat to hand it over shoal water. 781). Before the snow has melted: — Before the mountain snuw has come down, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 49 doVvn, namely, from about the 10th to the 15th of May ; then about the 1st of June the mountain snows melt, and there is a freshet in the river. 790. From the 1st of June to what time would the navigation of the river continue good? — Until the month of September tolerably good; the water falling off about the middle of July. 791. On the southern branch of the Saskatchewan to what extent would it be navigable, supposing those improvements were effected ? — I cannot apeak so distinctly with regard to the southern branch; I have merely seen it in parts ; I have not gone up the southern branch to any great distance. There is no timber on the southern branch, and there is very little timber on the northern branch. 792. There have been no attempts, I suppose, to eflfect those improvements? —None at all ; there is no commerce to justify any outlay. 793. What is the distance from the southern part of Lake Winnipeg to Fort William on Lake Superior ? — About 500 miles, I think ; from Lake Superior to Lake Winnipeg is about 500 miles of bad canoe navigation with 66 portages, varying in length from 100 yards to 3J miles, 794. Do you know a gentleman of the name of Captain Kennedy who made a speech at a meeting of the Toronto Board of Trade ?— I do. 795. He states there that the distance would not exceed 200 miles 5 — Yes j he does not know the country ; he never was in the country. 796. What may be the state of the river going through Rainy Lake and from the Lake of the Woods down to Fort William ; is it navigable for boats, or rafts, or anything? — Between the Rainy Lake and Fort William it is navigable only by canoes ; I have passed through that country about forty times ; it is passed only by canoes, and in many places with very great difficulty. 797. Is that from want of water r — From want of water and shoals in the navigation, and the wretched character of ♦he country altogether ; many of the rivers are embarrassed with timber constantly falling every year ; there is one river which is one continuous mass of timber, requiring to be removed every season. 798. Mr. Edward EUice.] Is that what is called the Savanne portage ?— Yes ; that is a river from the Savanne portage to Mille Lac. 799. Mr. Grogan.} Do you consider that obstruction so material as to impede the navigation of that river f — Yes. 8no. Could not it be removed ? — It could not ; in the autumn of the year, or rather in the month of August, I have been obliged to get out of a Ught canoe and wade in the water, handing the canoe along this river. 80 1 . Has any attempt evev been made to remove those obstructions ? — ^The obstructions are removed ei ery season, so as to enable the canoes to pass. 802. You mentioned, with regard to the Red River Settlement, that the climate was so unfavourable for the growth of cuin, and that there wa.s so much uncei-tainty as to the ripening of the corn, that at times you were obliged to import corn for the supply of the residents there ? — We imported corn some years ago ; there was a failure of the crops; I was apprehensive of famine^ and imported flour from St. Paul's in the Minesota territory, and from Canada. 803. Is that an exceptional case, or does it occur every year ? — It does not occur every year ; it is an exceptional case ; but the crops very frequently fail. We have been obhged to send for seed grain ; we have not had sufficient grain to sow the ground in the following seasun. 804. Can you say, during the 37 years that you have been Governor, how often you have been under the necessity of importing corn for the supply of the people at the Red River Settlement ? — We had never imported any large quantity of grain for the support of the people until that season, in the year 1847, I think ; but the crops have been entirely destroyed, from the country having been overflowed with water. The country was entirely overflowed with water in the year 1 826 ; the habitations were swept away, and the people were oblig'ed to remove to high grounds for the purpose of saving themselves. 805. Am I to understand that the occasion to which you refer was an entirely exceptional one, and owing to the flooding of the water?— It did not arise on that occasion from the flooding of the water, but from an apprehended scarcity ovviiipr to the presence of troops. In 1836 the country was flooded and the O'^.c Q crops Sir 0. Simpten. 86 February 1857. I 1- 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE II « « Sir O. Si«npio». crops were destroyed. Several years previously to that the crops were destroyed three years in succession by locusts ; myriads of locusts ate up every 86 February 1857. particle of grass. 806. In what year was that ?— In the years 1818, 1819, and 1820. 807. You have mentioned one instance in which corn was imported in some quantities, you say not considerable f — Flour was imported. 808. For the supply of the inhabitants at the Red River Settlement ? — Yes. 809. Is that the only instance ? — That is the only instance where we have imported ; it was especially for the garrison. We had a wing of a regiment there, and were apprehensive that the crops would be insufficient for their maintenance. 810. In other years has there been a sufficiency of com grown in that district in general for the supply of the locality? — Certainly not; two- thirds or fully half of the population live by hunting and fishing. 811. Are the settlers there encouraged in regard to hunting and fishing pursuits generally, to follow those pursuits rather - than agriculture ? — No ; we are very anxious that they should follow their agricultural pursuits. 8 1 2. Does the Company purchase their flour ?— Yes. 813. The Company purchase flour at the Red River Settlement, from the farmers in the neighbourhood? — We purchase all their surplus agricultural produce. 814. Do you mean that the farmers have no more to sell than what you purcha.se, or do you only purchase what you want? -They have no more to sell : they have only 8,000 acres of land under cultivation at the present time, although the country has been settled upwards of 40 years. 81.5. I suppose it was during the time that you were Governor that a certain Mr. John M'Lean, who has pubHshed *' Notes of a Twenty-five Years' Service in the Hudson's Bay Service," was a servant of the Company ? — Yes, he was so a part of ths time. 816. I will read you an extract as taken from his book, and you can say how far it is correct. *' A single Scotch farmer," says Mr. M'Clean, " could be found in the colony able alone to supply the greater part of the produce the Company require ; there is one in fact who offered to do it ; if a sure market were secure*! to the colonists of Red River they would speedily become the wealthiest yeomanry in the world ; their bams and granaries are always fuU to overflowing ; ih.e Company purchase from six to eight bushels of wheat from each farmer, at the rate of 3 s. per bushel, and the sum total of their yearly purchases from the whole settlement amounts to 600 cwts. flour, first and second qualities; 3'> bushels rough barley; 10 half-firki;)s butter, 28 lbs. each; 10 bushels Indian corn ; 200 cwts. best kiln-dried flour ; firkins butter, 56 lbs. each ; 240 lbs. cheese ; 60 hams. Where he (the Red River farmer) finds a sure market for the remainder of his produce. Heaven only knows, I do not ; this much, however, I do know, that the incomparable advantages this delightful country possesses are not only in a great measure lost to the inhabitants, but also the world, so long as it remains under the dominion of its fur-trading rulers." Do you agree in the comment of Mr. M'Clean there ? — Certainly not. 817. In point of fact, do the Company purchase from the farmers settled in the neighbourhood of the Red River Settlement, all the corn the farmers are able to sell ? — We are not able to get the quantity of corn to he held in depot that we requirf. I have written over and over again to the person in charge, to get all the gra he could for tlie purpose of being held in depot, and we can never get our ((uantity. 818. Mr. Gordon.'] Will you allov; me to remind you of one other sentence in your interesting work. It is ut page 55 of volume 1; "The soil of Red River Settlement is a black momd of considerable depth, which, when first tilled, produces extraordinary crops, as much, on some occasions, as 40 returns of wheat ; and even after 20 successive years of cultivation, without the relief of manure or of fallow, or of green CDp, it still yields from 15 to 25 bushels an acre. The wheat produced is plump and heavy ; there are also large quantities of grain of all kinds, besides beef, mutton, pork, butter, cheese, and wool in abundance." Do you adhere to that statement ? — I do. 819. And yet yon think it unfavourable for cultivation? — Yes. I there referred to merely a few small alluvial points occupied by the Scotch farmers. 820. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 51 820. Mr. Adderlei/.li What is the nature of the wood growing in the woody Sir G. Simpson. district r — There lias been elm at Red River. It is now quite denuded of wood about the Red River Settlement by fire. "^ February 1857. 821. I refer to the higher part about James's Bay ; what is the nature of the wood there ?- Small stunted pines. 822. What is the highest latitude at which fine timber grows ? — I cannot tell precisely ; there is very little timber on the shores of the Bay to the north, 100 miles north of Churchill. On tlie eastern side of the Bay there is very little timber north of Big River, or Fort George on James's Bay. 823. When you get to those fine elm forests, is it not very fine timber ? — That is in the prairie country. There was some very good timber about Red River at one time. 824. Is the natural wild growth of the prairie country good ? — In some parts. 82,5. Is it very luxuriant r — In some ))arts ; in other parts the soil is exceed- ingly thin, and there is very little herbage. 826. M hat should prevent cultivated produce growing equally luxuriantly on the same spot ? — Immediately behind Red River, about a mile from the banks of the river, there is merely a thin skin of soil. 827. Is there any luxuriant herbage, either grass, herbs, or fruit of any kind, at a greater distance from the river than you have mentioned ? — I think not, except in detached spots. There has never been any cultivation a mile from the river. 828. Would not many of the impediments which you have alluded to be got rid of by art and cultivation r — Certainly not. 829. It is impossible ? — It is impossible ; I have paddled over the roofs of some of the houses in my canoe. 830. Do you say that you never knev.' any wild country in which the climate was softened by drainage ? — I have heard of the climate of countries being improved by drainage, and settlement and cultivation, but I have not experienced it myself. 83 1 . Are you aware that Europe was once as much frozen as Rupert's Land now is ? — I am. not aware that it was ; I have heard of some historical facts. 832. Can you state the present population of Red River, and the increase in the last 10 years ; — The population of Red River is about 8.000. 833. In what time has it doubled ? — The settlement has been established 40 years. 834. We had a statement from a former witness that, 10 years ago, the population was 5,000 ; can you state whether that is correct r — It may have been ; the population is now about 8,000. It is not from natural increase, but from the migration of some Indians from other parts of the country. 83,5. Is there not always emigration in the shape of a .squatting population from the United States r — Not from the United States. 836. Wiiere from r — The neighbouring districts ; Indian migration. 837. Should you say that there was much difference between the climate of Minesota and that of the Red River ? — Decidedly, the further south you go the better the climate is. 838. And do you state that there is no overflow of population from Minesota to Red River?— 1 am not aware of any ; I believe two or three Americans have gone from St. Paul's, who have seated themselves down as small dealers and opened shops. 839. Is there any barrier to their doing so from the nature of the Red River Settknient regulation ? — None. 84(1. Mr. Kimitiird.] Are there not westward from the Red River colony several hundred miles of level country towards the Rocky Mountains? — Yes, a very fine country. 841. And comparatively speaking, a railway might easily be made along there."— Yes, from the Red River to the Rocky Mountains. 842. How far are the large livers from the Settlement of York navigable up the int( rior?— 'Ihey are navigalde by boats from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg; boats carrying about three tons. f<43- VNithout mueli portage r — There are a great many portages ; there are from 40 to 4.") portage^*, I think. !>44- C'ouUl they easily be removed r — No. 0.2,-,. G 2 845. Mr. 3* 5a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir G. Simpson. 845. Mr. Edward Ellice.'j I think that at those portages every thing is literally carried on men's backs ? — Yes, a6 February 1857. 846. Mr. Kinnaird.] Did you not, after that interesting extract from your book, recommend to the Company the establishment of a settlement somewhere between the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake ? — No ; I suggested that a missionary establishment might be formed there. 847. Which would attract settlement ? — Merely for the improvement of the Indian population. 848. You recommended it as a place adapted for a missionary station, which, in other words, would be adapted for a setlleraent ? — A missionary settlement would live by fishing in a great degree ; they could not only raise produce but fish, and give their time and attention to hunting during the winter. 849. Are you not aware that the whole of the manure which is made in tlie Red River Settlement is wasted, because it is not required for the improvement of the land, it being so fertile ? — Some improvident, careless people, who know very little about cultivation, rather than take tiie trouble of collecting their manure, throw it over the side. 8,50. I believe it is not required? — In some parts it is required; in the low alluvial points it is not required ; the low alluvial points which are improved vear by year, or every second or third year, from the overflowing of the river, require no manure. ''li. Mr. Bell.] What communication is there on the shores of the Saskatch- ewaii t^^wards Edmonton ; what is the nature of the country r — The country is level ; it is a rolling prairie. 852. It is a practicable country ? — Yes ; I have travelled on horseback through the whole of that prairie country. I have travelled from the Red River to the Columbia on horseback. 853. Mr. Gumey.} I understand you to have spoken of the right bank of the river of the Rainy Lake ; by the right bank, do you mean the southern bank or the northern bank ? — Going down the stream ; the north-eastern bank. 854. Going down the stream would be rather i'xe southern bank? — No, north-east ; the opposite side is south-west, the American bank. 855. Does not that bank belong to the United States ? — No, the right bank of the Rainy Lake River is British territory ; the river divides the territory ; the riaht bank, going down the stream from the Rainy Lake to the Lake of the Woods, is British territory. 856. The opposite bank is American ? — ^Yes. 857. Then the right bank is what would rather be the northern bank on this map ? — The north-eastern. 858. Opposite the southern part of Vancouver's Island there is a place on the maps marked Fort Langley ? — ^That is at the mouth of Fraser River. 859. I believe you mentioned that there was no very good land between Fraser River and the coast ; but how is the land immediately inland from Fort Langley, between Fraser River and the iimerican boundary ?— The boundary is Fraser Iliver, or very nearly so. 860. Mr. Charles Fitzmlluim.] Does nui Fraser River run north and south ? — I think the boundary is very near Fiaser River, at the mouth of Fraser River. 8(ii. Mr. Crwrney.] My object was rather to inquire whether Fort Langley was in any way the centre of a small district of good land ? — No, it is near the souihern boundary of the British territory. 8()2. What is the character of that district ? — All the way down Fraser River to within about 50 n^les of Fort Langley, it is an exceedingly rapid river. 863. What is the nature of the land eastward from Fort Langley, inland? — A short distance to the eastward is level ; there is a mountainous country higher up the stream. 864. Therefore there is a space of level land immediately inland from Fort Langley ? — Yes. 865. Is the mouth of the Fraser River at all available as a port or outlet? — No ; there is a bar at the mouth of the river ; vessels with a small draught of water would take the ground. 8{)(i. That bar could not be easily removed?— It would fill up again imme- diately. 807. Mr. SELECT COMMHTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 53 867. Mr. Charles FUzwilliam.] Do you know what the water on the bar is ? sir Q. Simpion. — I think about eight or nine feet. 8fi8. Mr. Lowei] Which do you consider the best way to the Red River «6 February 1857. Settlement from Europe ? — Through the United States, by Minesota. 869. By St. Paul's?— By St. Paul's. 870. From Canada, which do you consider the best way ? — By Lake Superior, Fort William and Rainy Lake, into Lake Winnipeg, and then on the southern side of Lake Winnipeg. 871. Is that the way you went yourself ? — Forty times I passed over that ground. 872. Mr. Bell] Is there any other practicable route from Canada to the Red River :— No other. 873. North of Lake Superior inlaiid? — T'lere is no other practicable route. 874. What has induced you to change your opinion since you wrote that passage in your journey with regard to the nature of the climate and the soill, and its applicabiUty for cultivation, because I observe that you had been 20 years in the country when you wrote that passage f — I had never given par- ticular attention to the climate of the country, nor to the fact of the country being one continued morass behind, until after my narrative was written ; the Company have a farm at the outlet of the Rainy Lake at the commencement of the river, and our crops very frequently fail. 875. Mr. Edward Eltice.] At Red River Settlement, owing to the great uncertainty of the crops, do not the Company keep two years' consumption of grain on hand in case of accident f — Yes, that has been our object ; we never can get up a stock of grain. 876. With regard to those floods which you have spoken of, are you not aware th;;t they have happened repeatedly on former occasions ? — Yes ; there was a flood upon one occasion, a few years previous to 1820, on my flrst visiting the country. In 1826 the whole country was one continued sea. 877. And in 1848, 1 think f— Yes, about 1850 or 1851 there was another flood. 878. To give the Committee an idea of those floods, what did the breadth of the river increase to ? — There was no river ; it was a continued sea for han- dreds and hundreds of square miles. 879. With regard to the farming at Red River, do you consider it the inte- rest of the Company to promote agriculture there '! — It is very desirable, for the purpose of furnishing ourselves with the means of living. 880. Have the Company been in the habit of giving encouragement to agriculture at Red River ? — We have promoted agriculture by every means in our power. 881. Have the Company established model farms ? — We did establish a model farm. 8s 2. Have the Company taken out stock on purpose to promote and im- prove the breeds ? — Yes ; the most improved breeds of cattle and horses and sheep. 883. You told us about the character of the territory in Rupert's Land and in Oregon, but you have said nothing of the character of the land in the part of Canada occupied by your posts, and more especially the p;;rt between Sault St. Mary and Fort William ; what is the character of the - imtry on the north side of Lnke Superior between those points?— It is a very craggy, barreu, rugged country ; a surface ot ro.ik. 884. Viscount Sandori.] You are well acquainted, I imagine, with the Assi- niboine branch of the Red River r— \ es. 885. Will you state to the Committer V.ow far it is navigable ? — There are shoals and rapids at the very coramencvunent of the stream. 886. For what distance ?— From the Forks where it mites with the Red River, I think about three miles, there is the first rapid ; and 20 or 30 miles higher up a further liipid, and above that there are very frequent rapids. 887. So that it is in fact unfitted for navigation ? — Qu'tc so. 888. What is the character of the land along the banks of that river ? — The land is pretty good immediately along the banks. 889. I think the land is cultivable nearly to the sources of the Assiniboin& River ; immediately upon the banks. 8f)o. That is for a distance of about 150 miles?— Yes. w.a,'). 3 891. A former \ -I 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 3 •■■»r i''y Sir O. K:iiifm. 89 1 . A former witness haj stated that the Americans are extending their - settlements very rapidly towards the Red River, and that nnmbers have crossed ao Februair/ i8j7 the boi..i' ary ; do you imagine thnt fact to be correct? — I am not aware of any Amorican settlers having crossed the boundary. 892. Would you have 'he moans of knowing? — Yes, decidedly; I think the nearest*: settlement nf tl. Americans is at the Crow Wing River, one of the branches of the Mississipi/i., 893. Chairman.] How fir is that oif? — I think perhaps 350 to 400 miles. 894. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] Does the Crow Wing run below St. Peter's River or above it ? — It falls into the Mississippi above St. Peter's; above the falls of St. Anthony ; the Crow Wing River is above St. Paul's. 895. Mr Gladstone.] Is St. Paul's near the junction of th'- St. Pef^s's with the Mississippi ? — Yes. 8g(i. Where is the Cro-v Wing? — The Crow Wing is about l(:i> 'uiles rearev Red River, I think ; it is not marked on this map, 897. Mr. Kinth'lrd.] Is there not a settlement ut Pembiii;' ' — Yf>. I n;?'! thd settlement of Pembina an uffshoot from Red Riv:. ; it is i.tiucipuily in!uLiited by half-breeds from the settlement of Red Kiver. 8y8. It is in the United Sfates territJTV " — It is ou the frofi.ier. 891). Therefore, in fact, th^n is au ;^ r rican setilciiient nearer than you have stated ?— No ; I think tiuy are setth-d within the British territory. I am not aware thai they are cvitside the line. 900. iJoea not Fort Pembina belong to thv Americans V — There is no for?, at Pembina. Foit Prnbina is an oU trading establishment of the Hudson's iky Comp.' ' . gox. "v)i'. GroqaiT'.] But dots Fort Pembina belong to the Hudson's Bay C'^iropai ■ n* to ih»^ Americj.ns? — Fort Pembina did belong to us. 90?. To v.iixnu ;iueh it b;»)ong now ? — There is no Fort Pembina now. 903 1 ini -n the , t tilcment. or the station, or whatever you please to call it ? — I think thi^ j.'tder.s ar ; upon both sides of the line. 904 Viscount Sand^)/:.] You in.agine that the neiirest American settlement is on f.he Crow Wing River? — I consider that an American sittlement because there ts an American population. I consider it the nearest Aaierican settlement. 905. If it was proved that there were American settlers com:ng in consider- o'ile numbers to the British boundary you would think that a considerable argument in favour of the goodness of that territory, would you not r — I do not thii.k they would go to the Red River from the United States or anywhere else for the purpose cf settlement. 906. I only asked you whether, supposing that was proved, you would not regard it as a considerable argument in favour of the character of the territory ? — Yes; but I should not agree in that fact. 907. Mr. Blackburn.] Provided that tliey settled for the purpose of agricul- ture ?— Ves ; but I am i^itisSed tliat they svill not do so. 908. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] You say that the north shore of Lake Superior is banen and rocky ? — It is, except at the outlets of the rivers ; the general character is rugged and barren, and a surface of rock and water and swamp. 909. Is there any timber immediately on the shore of Lake Superior's — Very little ; scarcely any ; it is all burnt ; it is a burnt wood country. 910. Burnt by what? — By fires having overrun the country ; the greatei part of the thick-wood country is^ overrun by fires. 911. Of what vood are those the remains ; is it a fir wood? — It is a small M ! description jf fir. 912. What is the breadth of that belt of timber? shores of Lake Superior to the shores of Hudson's Bay. 913. Without any intermission ? — Y'es ; exoopt by laV. larger surface of water than of land in the whole of th' 914. When y M et from Lake Superior, and '^'-ovel to any country* '\ is timbered with majile j ■■' • River Kamenii,.- ,.. a falling into Lake Sui)ericr . I think liiere is a good deal of maple, and per)'.ui»i have not noticed oak. -Tt extends from the . i think there is a .-wood country. >., do not you come soft wood ?- At the \ViUiam, for 20 miles. :aiall quantity of oak ; I 915. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 55 915. That wood grows on the valley of the Kamenistiquoia ?— Yes ; that is Si r O. Simpfo n. 0)6. 1 do not mean so far to the west as that ; there is a place called the '^^ ebruary 1 57. Pic f_Yes, it is a perfectly barren post ; it is sand upon the beach and rock 017. It is a mineral country, though, is it not? — Yes; all along the eastern shore of Lake Superior is a mineral country. p 1 8. There is copper ? — Copper. 910. Andiron? — Yes. qeo. And the vegetation is pine wood:— Yes. 02 1 . When you go tiirough a belt, say of two miles of that country from the shores of the lake, do you not then come to a maple and oak vegetation ? — Certainly not. There may be patches here and there on the banks of the river of maple, but in a very small quantity. 922. The country rises from the bank of the shore of Lake Superior, does it not? — Yes ; to the watershed. 923. You come into a country filled with small lakes and morasses ? — Yes. 924. How are those lakes formed ? — They have been lakes from the begin- ning of time, I believe. These basins are formed by large quantities of snow, and the morasses are very deep, and the season is not sufficiently long to dry them up. q2j. Are there not some artificial reasons for that, as there are on the south shore of Lake Superior ? — No ; I am not aware of any. 926. Dams of difierent sorts ? — No. 927. Then it is not of the same nature as the shore on the southern side of Lake Superior ?— I am not aware that the waters are dammed on the southern shore. 928. With regard to Frase-. River, you said that the country on the main- land was generally unfavourable for cultivation ? — Yes. 929. But there are farms at Fort Langley, I think ? — There is a farm at Fort Langley. 930. Mr. Edward EUice.] To what extent ; how many acres ? — Perhaps about 20 acres. 931. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] But there is plenty of room for more? — ^Yes. 932. C/iahi)ian.] There is some extent of ground there fit for cultivation ? — Yes, at Fort Langley. 933. Whiit extent should you say ?— Perhaps several hundred square miles. 934. What sort of cultivation ; would it grow wheat ? — It might grow wheat. 935. Is it as good as the southern portion of Vancouver's Island '/—Not so good, I should think ; it is a more moist climate. 936. It is not so good in point of climate ? — I should think not. 937. Mr- Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Is not the drought at the southern end of Vancouver's Island rather a drawback to cultivation in the summer time ? — I am not able to speak to Vancouver's Island. 938. Is the country round Fort Langley of the same character as that between Nisqually and Fraser River?— No, it is a more thick-wood country; from Nisqun'ly to vt.y nvai Fraser River is a prairie country, with patches of wood. 939. Or rather a woody country with patches of prairie ? — Yes. 940. Is the country to the north of the British line like the country about Nisqually ?— No ; it is a thick-wood country. 94'- Still, with small prairies? — No; I think the prairies are not so fi-equent. 042. Mr. Grogan.] You have described to us the countries as having been visiti'd by t y b; ••n floons ;, was 'ii.ire ai^y particular cause, such as an early spring, 01 V, oUUdfu meicing of the mountain snows, which occasioned it? — Yes : *1 was severe weu'' .t until the season was far advanced, and the sun burs .a with great power. ;N,i. And this gieal extent of flood was lie overflow of the rivers ?— \es. 944. lo which of the rivers do you jiiincipally attribute the flooding?— It was -AX over, not only Red River, but ihe whole of ihe country. 945. Generally through the whole district? — Yes, the York River and Moose River ; ':hey ,,ere obliged to get their goods out of the stores and put them on stages, for the purpose of being saved Irora the liood. 0-25. G 4 946. Then ■*•■ 56 \IINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir 0. Sitnpiom, |6 Fabrutrjr 18S7, wii ti ii more more The 946. Then those particular floods were not local, in fact, in the neighbour- hood of the Red River ? — No. 947. They were general through the country ? —Yes. 948. M'ith regard to the Red River Settlement, was that settlement damaged or more exposed to flood than any other part ?— It was ; it was exposed and more injured, because there was a larger population. 949. The Red River discharges itself into Lake Winnipeg ? — Yes. 9.50, Is there any obstruction to the river going into the lake ? — No. 951. Or to the waters o* tV lake finding their way into the sea f — No. lake was overflowed, which rendered it necessary to remove our establishments from the lower end of the lake. 953. Would the existence of those 47 portages which you described as on York River, up to Lake Winnipeg, in any way conduce to damming up the waters, and flooding the country ? — Lake Winnipeg empties itself into Nelson River, a little way to the northward. 9.53. Are there any obstructions on that river which would tend to dam up the waters of Lake Winnipeg?— None at all. 054. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it not the general flat nature of the country wluch causes the flood ? — Yes. g.'iS- There is not declivity enough to carry off the water ? — Just so. Mr. Bell.] The same as in the neighbourhood of Lyons, in France? —Yes. 957. 9.58- 9.19 Mr. Gordon.] When did the last great flood occur? — In 1851. Mr. Jicll.'] Do you know the neighbourhood of Fort Alexander ? — I do. What sort of country is it ? — The back country is thick wood country ; the timber is pine, and there is a great deal of swamp ; it is a swampy country. 9f)0. Mr. Gladstone.] With respect to the wheat at the Red River Settle- ment, at what period do they sow ? — They sow in ihe early part of May, I think. 96 J . And when do they reap ? — In ^.ugust. 962. Is the harvest pretty good, or is it overtaken by the winter, without having sufficient sun to ripen the com? — The crops are usually, or always, secured before the winter sets ii.. 963. From whence did the Hudson's Bay Company bring the com and other provisions for ils servants before the Red River settlement was founded ? — Very little grain was used in the country previously to that time. The provisions used in transport were pemican, a compound of buffalo meat and tallow ; the buffalo meat dried upon stages, and ground down, tmd mixed up with the fat of the animal. 964. Then it was almost entirely animal food ? — Animal food and fish. 965. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it not in a great measure so now ? — Yes, in travelling to the northward. 966. Mr. Gladstone.] Was there no regular import of grain or other vegetable produce into the Hudson's Bay territory before the Red RiT*^r Settlement was founded ? — Merely for the use of the establishments upon the coast, and for the Indians near thcot «^8tablishment8. 967. From ivlience was that grain brought ? — From England. 968. By the Hudson's Bay Coiiipany ?— Yes, through Hudson's Bay. 969. You do not consider that the Hudson's Bay route is the most economical or convenient route, in a commercial sense, for connecting the Hudson's Bay country with England, do your — No great extent of traffic can be carried on through Hudson's Bay, inasmuch as the season is exceedingly short ; the Bay is never free of ice. 970. How long is it open ? — About f vo months. 97 1 . With regard to the Saskatchewan River, are the banks of it tolerably timbered ': — There is very little timber on the banks of the Saskatchewan. 972. Is there such a deficiency of timber both on the Upper and Lower Saskatchewan that that of itself would, in your view, constitute a serious impediment to settlement ? — Decidedly ; throughout the whole of that prairie country, from parallel 49° northwards, I think the wnt of fuel would be a great drawback to ittlement. 973. Is not th-. Red River country pretty well timbe r Tt was prett" v^ell timbered, but people are now under the necessity of :■ U)^ further foi timber j they go up the river and raft it down 40 or 50 or ao MiiLs. 974. Arc SELECT COM.vilTTI E ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 5" [HI , . 974. Are the outfalls of Lake Winnipeg exclusively into Hudson's Bay ?— Yes. 97';. Are there several? — No; the lake empties itself by Nelson Uivc into the sen. Entirely .'—Yes. Mr. Kinnoird.] You say that there is no timber on the Saskatchewan River? — There is vury little timber. 978. Has any search been made for coal in that district? — Yes; an inferior description of coal, a lignite, has been found near Edmonton. 97^. Mr. /W/.] You say there is very little timber in that country; I find that in your Journal of a Journey from the Red River Settlement across the Rocky .Mountains, you constantly describe the country in this way; "Picturesque country, iak28 with gently slopin;!;- banks, the greensward crowned with thick woods; then you say, " Beautiful country, lofty hills, long valley, sylvan lakes, briuht green, uninterruj)ted profusion of roses and blue-bells, softest vales, paiionuna of Imnging coifses.-— Yes, there were a great many flowering slirubs. ()So. Then you say tliat within a day's march of Carlton, on the Saskatche- wan, in lat 'nde o.T, there were large gardens and fields, and an abundance of potatoes and otn;'r vegetubles ? — Yes. 96 1. 1 understood you to say that there were no woods in that country? — There is a very smai' quantity of wood, insufficient for the purposes of a large population. 982. About Edmonton, as to the pasturage, your remark is that it is luxuriant, and that the barley is very productive ? — Yt;s, it is very good. 983. Chalnnan.] Will you state to us the system under which the country is managed, with regard to trade and government, with reference to the Indian population ; in short, the machinery which is employed ; how many officers and servants aitogetlier are emjiloyed by you in the manaf^fement ot the territory of the Huflson's Hay Company ? — There is the governor-in- chief, to begin with ; there are 10 chief factors, who are the principal officers, members of our council ; ^9 chief traders, five surgeons, 87 clerks, and 67 postmasters ; the last rank between the labouring mnn ani') or three years previous to IHio tlu-re was a Lireal mortality iu tlie nortiiern parts ol the romitry, m the tliickwood country, from small-pox and mea-les; that was in IHk;. 1H17 and IHIH. After tliat period we introduced vaccine inondation, and the small-pox lias been unknown in the eoiintry since then. ()(!<)• Since that period, do you believe that the number of the Indians have increasid or decreased ■ -1 think the number of the Indians in the ihickwood country has increased. 1000. Take them ns a whole r -In the prairie country 1 think they have decreased owl n{>; to wars and small |)i)x. 1001. By wars yoi: i.w waii 'vmon;; tlu-niselves ? — Yes. 1002. Mr. Kdwiirii ii.,/;, • "lioe are the Indians on the I'rontier ? — Yes, the Blaeklieet tribes , they dve. priiuipally American Indians. 1003. ('hainii,in.\ What do you mean by the thickwowl rountrv" — The tliickwood c(iunt!V is a very extensive district of country lying 30 • or4(»() utiles inland round llu agriculture. 1011. Have they to any extent adopted agriculture '-—Not to any material extent; they Iiave adistate for field labours. 1012. You state that there a.e wars in some parts of the country between different tribes of Indians .' — Yes- 101 J. I believe you have managed to preserve peace as between the red man and yourselves • -Decidedly. 1014. It has been almost enri"ely f eserved? — Yes; for 3' years, during which I iiave had the principal i. agement, there have bten very few cases of crime, considering the cliarac I t' ■ population and the extent of the country. 101,5. I b'lieve during the last ..w years there has been a warfare of the most dreadful de>('ri])tion carried on i)etween the inlabitants of the United States in Oregon and the Indian tribes in that neighbo'irhood .' — There has been. 10 lb. It lias extended to your frontier, has it not r — Yes. 11117. But has never passed t'lat Irontier f — It has not gone bevond ; we have sufficient intiuence with the Indians in the Bri'ish territory west of the mountains to keep them out of it. U18. Ill SELI.CT (OM.MITTKK ON Till: HTDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 59 iiiiS. In what way is justice luiniinistered in tli t country which is under Sit G. Simpmi. your control • — As ticurly us possible according to ilie laws of England; we liavc a very conij)etent legal officer, who tills the otiice of recorder at Red River ^^ February 1857, Sett lenient. 1(11(1. Supposing uu outrattc takes place in a distant part of th( country, wliat happens .'— The ease wouhl be tin probably at Hed Hiver or at Norwiiy House. Kjjo. How can that l>e done ; when . murder, tor instance, takes place in a very distant part of the country, what is men done 'f — In one case three parties «h() were concerned ir. n murder were removed to Canada for trial, all the way Iroiii .Mackenzie's River, at great dithculty and j;reat expense. loji I suppose in very distant parts of the country yo'i administer justice as best vou may .- — In many instances we have brought cases to Red Hiver, where the parties have been regularly tried by jury. K'jj. I'or miiiiir oti'ences what iiroeeedings do you adopt practically: — 'J he ludiiin is reprimanded and held in disfavour for some time. 102.',. \\r. Kdwaid Ellkc] Will you illustrate that answer by giving a case which ociurred at Norway House recently .' — Some Indian lads broke into one of our stores and they were regularly tried, and two of them were transported from their own district 300 miles off to another district; that was the entire punishment ; it was in fuct, no punishment ; they were also severely repri- manded. 1024. C'/i(iinn.ea ' — We have only rented the part between Fort Simpson and Crocs Sound. lojo. \ hat is the date of that arrimgeinent .' — That arrangement,! think, was entered into about 1839. 1031. What are the terms upon which it was m-xde ; do you pav a rent for that land ? — The British territory runs along- inland from the coast about 30 miles; the Russian territory runs along the coast, we have the right of navi- gation through the rivers to hunt the interior country. A misunderstanding existed upon that point in the first instance ; we were about to S!>iabll — We have the entire care of it. O'-^j- H 2 1035. Mr, f >>'] 1% do MINl'TRS OF FAinENCF TAKEN IJKFOUE TlIK 5! I' Mm •ii i^'it O. Simpton. 1035. Mr. Kduuird Kllicc] That waH inniiuaincd tliroiij^li the last war, was it not, in order tliot there tilioiild be no dititurbaiice ainon^; the Indiana l — Hi February 1857. Yes. 1036. C/iainiitm.] Was any inconvenience sustained before this irmnp;emcnt was made with regard to tlie nianageniciit of the Indians, inai^muc*' us it V\'u8 found that spirits were introduced amoni; then) by |mrtieH coniprtriir witli one anotiier for tiie fur trade: — Yes, tliere wa» a great abus. il s|u>'tuoiu liquors. 1037. Was that the main inducement to you and to the Russian Company to make this arranj^ement •— It was not tlie principal inducement, but it was one of the imhicenu-nts. A yearor1^V(» afterwards I entered into an arrangement at Hitka witii the (iovtinor of Sitka that the use of spirituous licpiors siiouUl he entirely prohibited. A murdemus scene took place under our own eyes at Sitka, arising' fiom a deliaucli aimmi; the Indians, and we came to an agreement then tlint liquor should no longi r be introduced into the country. io;;S. Mr. Kiiniaird.] litis tiiat agreement been rigidly kept on their part? — It has been rigidly kept, I believe, by them as well as by us. 1031). Mr. Gordon.^ A\'ith regard to the administration of justice, is it not the case that under tlie Acts by which the Company exercise jurisdiction, viz., the 43 Geo. ',), and the 1 & '1 (Jc o. 4. the Company are bound, under a penalty of 5,000/., to transmit caves of felony for trial to ( anada .' — The ex-recorder of Rupert's Land will be here in the course of a day or two, and I should rather prefer that he should answer the question, and explain all matters connected with the administration of the law. 1040. I suppose you would also wish to defer till the recorder is here, the answer to the next cpiestion which I should put, viz., how ofttn that had been done ? — There have only been two cases transmitted to Canada in my time ; one is the case of those Indians in Mackenzie's Hiver, a few years ago, of whom I spoke. 1041. How long has> there been a recorder established at the Red River? — In 1839 the lirst recorder was appointed there. 104a. Mr. Grogaii.] What was the name of the recorder in 1839 ? — Adam Thorn. 1043. Mr. dordvii.'] How was justice administered previously to a recorder being apjiointed • — There was never a criminal case within my recollection previously to \^IM), except the case to which I am alluding, in Mackenzie's River. 1044. With regnrd to the introduction of spirits into the territory; arc spirits allowed to those who are in the employment of the Company .' — I may say that the whole importation of spirits, from the year 1847 to the year 18.50, averaged under 5,000 gallons into the whole country. 104.5. Are spirits habitually allowed to be used by the servants in the employment of the Company ? — Certainly not. 1046. Not for their own use? — Not for their own use ; not. even the officers in some parts of the country are allowed the use of spirits. 1047. I find it stated in a speech made by .Vlr. (iladstone, on the 10th of August 1848, that in the year 1837, about 3,800 gallons of spirits had been imported into the Hudson's Bay territory ; and in the year l84.j. three years before the date of his speech, !),0"r) galhms. From the statement which you have just made, 1 suppose we must conclude that that proportion has diminished a good deal ? — In 1845 the quantity was increased, in consequence of a wing of the sixth regiment having been .^ent to Red River ; it was for the use of the troops. 1048. Then we must not take that as reijr^senting an increase or decrease in the consumption ? — No; the average since 1847 is 4,911 gallons, it is under 5 0(10. Of that quantity, two-thirds are used by the 8,000 inhabitants of Red River; tlie icrr-::ining one-third, or 1,630 gallons, is all that is allotted for the use of our own servants, for an occasional dram to Indians who are employed in transport with our own servants, and for the purchase of provisions in parts of the country where we cannot get thmn otherwi-e. 1049. I ^^^ '" '* re(»ort which wis made by a Committee of the House of Commons, which was appointed to consider the condition of the aborigines in tht liritish CJolonies, a statement that the Coppermine Indians had decreased one-half; SELECT COMMHTKR ON TFIK IIUDSOWS BAY COMPANY, (ii nne-liiilf : and unions other cauRcs whicli ure usHimni'd (or tlmt decrease, intern- oernnci' is tneniioncd. Ilavi; uiiy Ixit tin* Ci)mpimy't» traders accuHS to that Sir G. limpynt. "ountry? — None, except the (.'uinpany's truderH ; tjiat Htatoment is not true; no iG Februarj 1837* li(|aur goes there. 10.50. Mr. Eduard KUirr ] Is it not tho fact tlmt tlint is* one of the districts into which spirits do not go at all r — No spirituous li(piors havi; been sent north- ward of Cmnherlund to my knowledge since 1H22. lo,";!. Kilher for the Company's servants or for the Indians'!*— Not for any- body; ncith«*r for officers, servants, nor Indinns. lo.V^- Ml'- Ciordun.] Then you presume that the Ci)inmittee of the House of Commons were misle(I by the evidence before tliL-in ? — Decidedly. 1033, It has been stated to mc by ollicers in the army who have travelled in those parts of the country where the Company have stations on the Sagucnay River, at (.'hicoutimi, for instance, that though licpior was not traded with the Indians for furs, yet at the time the bargain was concluded a certain quantity ot liijHor was always given to them as n present ; does it appear to you that that dittcrs in anything but name from making spirits a portion of the trade r — I 1 think it very likely ihat on the St. Lawrence, wjiere we are surrounded by opposition, that may have occurred. Where we have opposition, we must, in order to ^! that. 1076. Mr. Gordon.] Was that in the case of a Mr. James Sinclair ? — Yes. 1077. Mr. Edward ICllice.] That was when it was in contemplation to inter- fere with the fur trade ? — Yes. 1078. Mr. Loive.] Will you state what the case was with respect to .\Ir. James Sinclair .'—There was some objection. 1 079. What did he want to do ? — We objected to bring out goods for him at one time. luSo. What goods did he want you to bring out r — British manufactures. loSt. You objected on what ground ? — On the ground that he was to employ thim in the fur trade. 1082. Mr. Kinuaird.] The Company does not oppose a passive hinderance to the entrance of goods or of people necessLArily ? — Not at ail ; we take their goods out on freight. 1083. If I wanted to bring a mechanic into the Red River, could I do so ? — Decidedly ; we should afford him a passage. 1084. Ihen the Company would facilitate the entiance of free labourers of good character who should present themselves, by giving them a passage; — On paying. 1085. Allowing them to have the benefit of the Company's stores upon the terms the Chun I K are ?- of En of 3(i: Lawi Wesk and at all42 I K of Ru schoo year. year. inissid Gulfo 1 10 in the 1 10. —No many be ulk 1 10, loo/, i 0.2.3 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 63 iiderance to terrii'* of the (4)mpany's servants ? — No, not on the terms of the Company's Sir G. Smp$on. servants ; the Company's servants r'-neive very low wages. 1086. Yon have told us, I think l.at no other ship would be allowed to trade s6 Febru«ry 1857. at York? --Yes. 1087. Therefore if I wanted to import a mechanic, you would allow him to come in your ship r — Decidedly. ,088. .NJight not he trade on the same terms as the Company's servants ; inisht not he buy his things in the same way?— He might buy his things as the juier iniiabitants of Red Uiver do. 1089. And he might have the benefits of the Company's stores? — Y'es ; our shops are open to all parties. luQO. He would have to pay for his passage? — Yes. loyi. By a ti.\ed tariff r — There is a regular passage money charged, which I cannot call to memory at this moment. Every facility is afforded ; a passage has never been refused to any one that I am aware of. 100 2. There is an idea that the Company opposes the settlement of Indians as agricultural labourers or as a Christian community ?-- It is not the ca.se. iO()3. What IE the tenure of the land in the Company's territory? — N' .e hundred find ninety-nine years. 1094. Is the right of the Indians to sufficient lands for their support recognised? — Tliey occupy lands wherever they please. The Indian has never been required to pay lor lands. 109,). Do you pay no chief for the occupation of land yourselves in the Indian settlement ? — There is a very old respectable chief, a man who has been very friendly to the whites ; we support him principally. 10(|6. Do you not recognise their holding their possession of land ? — No ; the land was purchased of thorn, I think, in the time of Lord Selkirk by a regular purchase ; a certain quantity of ammunition and tobacco, and various other supplies being given f'r it. 1097. What provision is made, or can be made, for the settlement of such as desire to become agricultural labourers, or to live as a community ; what would be the facility given by the Company ?-~They would be permitted to take land-', wherever vacant lands were found, at a price which might be considered nominal ; the prices are never exacted. 1098. Is the Indian settlement at the Red River approved of and encouraaed by the Company ? — Decidedly. io<)9. In every way '—In every way. 1100. What provision is made for the instruction of these 'ndians ? — The Church Missionary .Society have a missionary in charge of the settlement 1 101. Mr. Edward Ellicc] Will you state what religious establishments tiiere are '! — In the Company's territory there are 19 missionary stations of the Church of England, 12 Roman-catholic, 4 Wesleyan, and 1 Presbyterian, making a total of 36. In Oregon theri is a Koman-catholic mission. On the (lulf of St. Lawrence, one. At Albany and Temiscaming, one. At the Pic there is a Wesleyan missionary. At Fort William there is a Uoman -catholic missionary : and at Vancouver's Island there is a Church of England missionary, making in all 42 missionary stations. 1 102. Mr. Ki/waird.] What provision is made for the chaplain ? — The Bishop of Rupert's Land has a salary of 300/. a year from the Company. In aid of schools he has 100/. a vear. The bishop's chaplain, at Red River, has 150/, a year. ,\t York, .'>0/ a year. At Moose, 50/. a year. At East Main, 50/. a year. At Victoria and V^aucouver's Island, 200 /. a year. The Roman-catholic missitm at Red River has 100/. a year. At Oregon, 100/. a year. On the Gulf of St. Lawrence, 105 /. a year. 1103. Mr. C/iarles Fitiwilliam.] What do you mean by Oregon, Oregon is in the United States ? — We call it Oregon. 1104. Do you give rt'li::ious instruction to the inhabitants of the United States ? — No ; fiiere is a Rom.an-catholic bishop who was taken across by us a good many years ago to Oregon, and he remains there on the promise that he should be allowed 100/. a year. iio.'j. Mr. iiiiehurk.] Do you pay him? — We pay him 100/. a year now. not). And you maintain him in the United States territory f —We give him 1 00 /. a year. 1107. He being in the L'^nited States territory? — lie being in the United States territory. 0.25- H 4 1108. Mr. 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN J5EF0RE THE 1*' Sir G. Simpson. iioS. Mr. Erlivaid £llice.] You have possessory rights, I believe, under the tivaty ?— Yes. «6 February 1857- i,(,p ]\jr. Roebuck.] But has not Oregon been given up by treaty ?— By that treaty our |)ossPSsory rights nre retained. 1110. What possessory rights have you? — We have various establishments; pasture grounds ; hunting grounds. We claim very large possessory rights. nil. .Mr. Edward EUice.] Have vou not also the free navigation of tiie river ? —Yes. 1112. Mr. Roebuck.] What do yon mean by jiossessory rights ; do you mean rights under the charter? — Riohts as British subjects previously to the treaty. 1113. Had you possession of land ? — We had possession of lantl. 1 1 "14. How did you acquire it? — Under the licence to trade. 1115. But that is not possession of land ? — Yes, under the licence to trade wt had various possessions in the country. in(). Do you understand that a licence to trade gives you possession of the land ? — We understood so. 1117. That is the interpretation which you give to the words "ariglit to trade," tiiat it gives you a right to the land ? — We conceive so. 1118. In fee-simple r — I do not say under wliat tenure, but we consider that it gives us a right to the land. 1119. So that when you received by charter from the Crown a monopoly to trade over certain portions of territory, you believe that the whole of that territory was ceded to you? — No, not the whole of the territory that we trade over, but the territory that we bring into cultivation. 1120. How much land did you bring into cultivation in Oregon ? — I really cannot tell. 1121. Did vou hrini' 100 acres ?-- Five thousand acres. 1 1 ■22. Into cultivation ? — 1 es. 1123. And those are all tlic possessory rights which you have?— We have various establishments all over Oregon ; we have them in various parts of the Columbia Iliver and I'nget .Sound. 1124. Mr. Edicard E/lice.] Arc you not aware that in addition there is the Puget Sound Company, wlio also have tliosc rights reserved under tiie treaty ? — Yes, that is an oti'shoot of the Hudson's Bay Company ; an agricultural esta- blislnneiit formed by the Hudson's Bay Company, or parties connected «ith or interested in the Hudson's Bay Company, encouraged by the Government of the day. 1 12.'). Mr. Kiniuiird.]l gather from your evidence, that in stating the number of people whom you employ, you do not consider the Indians who hunt for you to be your servants ; — We do not. ii2(). Is not the Company pledged to them by payments in advance? — Decidedly; tluit is to say, an Indian to make his hunt must be provided with certain neces-^aries to enable him to live during ihe winter ; he requires a gun ; he requires anununition ; he requires blanketting. 1 127. Are they not to all intents and purposes your own servants hunting for you, for which you pay them iu advance ? — There is no contract ; there is an understanding that they will pay us if they can. If the Indian is sick, we lojc the outfit. 1128. You make him payments in advance ; then you settle with him after the hunt, and in the event of any illness, or .'^iekness, or of old age, you undertikc to provide for him ? — We consider that a dead loss. 1 120. What provision do you make for the instruction of these Indians .' — In the ditlerent parts of the country favourable for settlement we always encourage missions; but in many parts of the country it would be impossible to collect any body of Indians ; the nieans of subsistence are not sufficient to do so '130. As the missions extended would you grant assistance ?— Decidedly ; we are anxious to improve the condition of the Indians. 11,51. What grants in aid are given for the education of the half-breeds and the Indians 'i" — We give no grants in aid. Tiie half-breeds are <)uite in a coiidi- tJoM to jiay for tliemselves ; the inhabitants of the country ; the heads ol families. 1 132. And the Indians ? — They are brought to the missions. 1133. In lact, you thin'' they are able to tuke care of themselves, and you make no grants in aid for .-icir education? — No. 1134, The bank bank : to any j)ay th 1 1/ Red and a at (iO ' 114: in teres their "4! your of it; excliisi '1.1 ".0: chief Comp; ".5. now K| the Re the go ur, II 50 mil 1151 fact is 0.2 r, n SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, (i.5 es a sun ; 1134. The barter of ardent spirits, you said, was never allowed under any Sir G. (:, circuinstances ? — Never for furs. In the Saskatchewan it is necessary to give a small ijuantity' ot spirits to tiie Plain Indians, as an inducement to bring in «6 Febmaiy 1857. provisions, otherwise they will not do so; these are principally American Indians. A small ([uantity is likewise given to some of the Indians at the Rainy Lake, who supply us with dried sturgeon and wild rice. 1 13.5. Have any ordinances or rules been passed by the Council on the sub- ject of ardent spirits ! — Yes 1 136. Can you put in copies of your rules with respect to ardent spirits ? — The most ettectual rule is not to introduce the article. 1137. Have you no written minute from the Council? — No, I think not. There can be very little spirit used, inasmuch as the whole importation is under 5.000 i,'al!ons. 1135. What is the amount of ardent spirits imported in the ships? — Four thousiuid nine hundred and some odd gallons. 1 131). How is it distributed in the territory? — Two-thirds of that quantity are for sale to the inhabitants of Red River, who would otherwise distil. We have had great ditiiculty in prevei/.ing them from establishing distilleries in the country. 1140. Are tlie Company's regulations, to your knowledge, violated in that respect ? — I think not. 1 141. Have any of tlie othcers of the Company been called to account for bar- tering ardent spirits where it was not necessary ? — No, not that I am aware of. We ure so decidedly opposed to the use of spirituous liquor in any of our esta- bhshments that no officer would venture to act in opposition to our desire. 1 14J. I think you said that the government of the country was vested in a coimoil ? — Yes. 1 143. Are the transactions secret? — Not at all. 1 144. Are minutes kept .' — Yes. iH."). And is it open to the |)ublic ; may anybody have access ? — All criminal and other legal cases are tried at Red River, and are open to the public. There was a trial by jury last year at Norway House which was open to the public ; but our own deliberations with reference to the management of the trade of the country are not open to the public. ii4(i. Is there any bank cut there for the use of the servants ; any savings bank or any place where they can deposit their savings ? — VVe have no savings bank ; but the Company allo^v the interest of the day, 1 think it is four percent,, to any parti* s who niiiy choose to leave their money in their hands, or they will pay their balances, as tliey accrue from year to year, as they may desire. 1147. Is every facility given in that respect at the different posts? — In the Red River Settlement we have gold, silver, and copper as a circulating medium, and a puper currency. That jjajjcr currency is redeemable by drafts on London at 60 days. 1 145. If any of your servants at the different posts wanted to place money at interest, you would allow them four per cent, upon it r— Iftliey choose to leave their money in our hands they get four per cent, for it. 1149. Have you it in contemplation to form a savings bank in any part of your territory?— No; it has never been contem' lited ; we have never thought of it; it has never been susigested. 1 i.'jo. Mr. Lowe.] In "horn does the executive power reside ; in the governor exclusively ? — The governor and his council. M.'ii. The Council of Factors ? — Yis. 11,52. Consisting of 16 '.'— Yes ; and where there is not a sufficient number of chief factors, the number is made up by chief traders ; that is as regards the Company's affairs, the business of the country. 1 153. As regards the government of the territory, how is it governed ; I am now speaking not of trade, but of the general government of the territory? — In the Red River Settlement, in the district of A.ssiniboia, tlic present recorder is the governor of the district. 1 154. He has the executive power as well as the judicial : — Yes. 1 1,").'). What extent cf territory is that over ? — The district of Assiniboia takes 50 miles hy the compass round the Red River Settlement. n.^^". Has he any assistance in that, or does he do it entirely himself? — The fact is there is very little to be done in that respect. i'--!5. I 1157. What (■.6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE Hi ii' lie m ',■1 i [ price and no ment t from b being accordi are pai 0.25 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 69 vould not t was not I not take t, entitled ickir sent Ion, as an Lich larger rer, ajjpli- )oit tallow uently the Uinutes of :er of the -breeds to of which Bay Coni- aw of the the trans- ticulars ; I refused by I Hudson's does to the lorts which to settlers -No ; there iOw far it is ed, at their iviloge, but s not true, permitted, anufactures i correct to nd the only article arlic. • prohibited for export is fur ; with tiiose two exceptions. •'" may import iiirG.Simp.ioii. or export anytliinn; that anybody requires. 1 239. Then how do you explain the circum.stance of these i/ui'ties not being "G February 1357. allowed to export their tallow ? — I do not exactly call to mind that circumstance. I was not in the country at the time : it led to a good deal of correspondence ; the thing is not quite fresh in my memory. 1240. Did you know a retired servant of the Company, Mr. Dunn r — I did not know him, but there was such a man. 1241. In what capacity was he employed by the Company? — I think he was originally a Green years aaro. I think. 1246. Mr. Gr<)gon.'\ Was he in the Company's service during the time that vou wire there ? — No. I never saw him. 1247. You mentioned that 5,000 gallons of spirits are imported into the country. Do you mean that that is the quantity of all the spirits imported ? — That is the whole quantity imported from England. Some of the settlers at lied River smuggle spirits into the country. We are unable to prevent it. 1248. Did you ever hear that Mr. Dunn had published a journal, in reference to his experience in the Hudson's Bay Company? — Yes, but I do not think I tver saw it. I do not recollect having seen it Upon the north-west coast of Ai.ici'ica, 1 have not the least doubt that npirituous liquor has been very much i.rused ; that was during ihe ojiposition with the United Statt^. 124Q. In 1832?— Yes. 1 2j«o. Y^ou gave us the number of chaplains that were employed and paid by th.; Company. Are those chaplains required to keep school? — They are encouraged to keep school. 1 25 1 . Are ihey required ? — No. 1252. The salary that you piiy them has nothing to do with their necessarily keepii.j a sdiool ? — No. They are likewise paid by the societies to which they belong ; Jie Church Missionary Society, or the Wesleyan Society. At Norway House, and at several of the Wesleyan establishments, very large schools are kept. 12,53. Are they paid for their services as schoolmasters by you or by the Missionary Society r -They are paid by us in aid of the mission. A salary is given to those parties in aid of the mission, and they keep schools, according to the instructions which they may have from the society to which they belong. 12.")4. i)o they receive any payment /'rom the scholars who frequent the schools .' i think not. \2f)^. For what period of time do your servants that go from tliis country engage with you ? — Generally five years. t2,')6. On the average do they return at the expiration 0' the five years? — No, I think they generally remain; I should say that six out of eight remain; they renew their contract over and over again. There are many servants who have been in the service 25 or .'50 years. I2,';7. As a general average, do they remain, say 20 years with you? — Perhaps barely 20 years at present. 1 2.58. Mut they remain a long time ? — Yes, many of our sci"vants remain a long time. Many of our servants remain altogether in the country. They retire from the service, and become settlers at the Ued River. 12.59. What is the highest salary that the Company pay their servants? — The price of labour has increased very much. It was some years ago 17/. sterling, and now it is increased to men coming direct f. om England on their first engage- ment to 20/. ; and it is raised according to their position afterwards. A man from being a common labourer, takes either the stern or tlie head of a boat ; being called the bowsman or the steersman; in that case, he is paid higher according to his capabihty as ■'•. boatman. Fishermen nre paid higher ; they are paid 30 /., 35 /., and lb l. in many cases ; tradesmen also are paid higher. 0.25. 1 3 1260. The j II 70 MINUTES OF I'VIDENCE TAKF,^' BEFORE THE WW [Iv '.W/. ^'' U t i Sir 0. Simpion. I j("u). The class that vou dcscrilie as labourers are paid 20/. to 30/., and lio I. ^— Ves. a6 February i8g-. \2(>\. What may be the salary of the superior officers .---Tbe factors and traders have an interest in the trade ; they are partners. iJtij. Mr. Kiuntiird.] The 1(J factors ■• — The 10 factors and the 29 traders. i^tij. Mr. Grogaii.] Tliey are, to a certain extent, partners in tlie adven- ture : — Yes. rj()4. A v»itness informed us on tlie la.st day that, with rofjard to the barter between tlie trader or factor and tlie Indians, it was aU done accordinj; to a tariff?— Yes, there is a tariff. i2fi,5. Is that tariff settled by the council, the governor, and factors; oris it settled in this country? — There is a tariff of very old standing; the Indian and the trader perfectly understand each other as regards the taritl'. iJi'ti. I5y wliom was the tariff settled?— The tariff was settled originaltv by the original traders. It has been modified from time to time according to cir- cumstances. 1 2(>-j. '1 he existing tariff in its nioditiud form is ratified and carried out bv the council ? — Yes. It varies in different parts of the country. 1268. In the event of a varince of that tariff, who si-ttles that variance ? — The council do. 1269. A question was put to you relative to any compensation or pension which might be given by the Company to old officers or servants, auf] those who might have received injuries in the service, and you stated that many of them were extremely comfortable ? — Yes, many of them have retired with means saved in the country. 1 270. Do you confine your answer to the superior officers, the factors, and truders, or do you ixtend it to the servants? — I speak of labourers. I have known labourers retire with from 200 /. to 300/. ; Orkney iabou'-^rs, who are cxtnmely economical in their habits. I speak of those who have been in the country for a great length of time. 1271. They have saved that money out of the wages of from 20/. to .30 /. a year, and the four per cent, which you allow them for money which they do not draw ? — Yes. i.'72. Mr. Gordon.'] I think there is no other settlement of any importance, besides the Red River, of whites living under the government, but not in the service ot the Company, in your territory ; of course I do not apeak of Van- couver's Island ? — There is a small suttlement at a distance of about GO miles from Red River, at a place called Portage la Frairie. 127 J. How years. Mr. Roilnuk.] AVhereubouts is it ? — 'J'hat is up the Assiniboine. That is close to the Ued River? — Yes. Mr. Gordon.] Is it in your power to sanction suth an establishment, or is it only in the power of the Governor and the Company at home ?— We were opposed to this settlement in the first instance as being difficult of management. It was at such a distance from the seat of government, that we had not the same control. If offences were connnitted, there were no constables witliin reach. There were no means of laying; hold of the offenders. 1277. What reason made it much more difficult to communicate with it ? — The distance of 60 miles is considerable. 127S. Is it 60 miles of interrupted river ? — I think it is about 60 miles from Portage la Prairie to the Forts (Fort Ciarry). 1279 And the river comimmication is not good ? — The river communication is not good. 1280. Mr Charles FitzwUliam.\ Is there no communicalion by land.' — There is a communication by land. 1281. Mr. Gordon.'] Is it in your power to sanction such an establishment as that, or must it he the Governor and Com])any at home who sanction its foniiation?— I referred to the Governor and Committee, who thought it desirable that the settlement should not be established ; but no step was taken to prevent it. .2H2. They permitted it, hut did not sanction it ? — Yes. 1283. If I went and chose to settle there, might I do so without any opposi- tion ? — Yes ; in any part of the territory, so far as I am aware, it has never been long has that settlement been established ? — .Seven or eight 1 274. 1275- ]27(.. 1; No; goods Orleiii Facto The 100 '3( miles, i3t thegc 0.2 k« ^'< SELECT COMMITTE , ON THE IIITD«: ^ "S BAY COMPANY. 71 been objected to. There has never been a case 'here application has been sir O. Himpvm. made. 1J84. Supposing such application were made, ould it be encmraged. or 56 Fflbruary 1857. discouraged as you have discouraged it in this hii er case ? — That would be a Tiiatter lor consideration. 1 have not prepared my; elf to answer that. ijSi. Do you consider that your right to sell land is the same in those terri- tories which you hold under your charter, and in those which you hold under your license to trade r — No ; Ave do not considur that we have any right to sell land under our license to trade. I jSlt. \.m I mistaken in supposing that you said that you considered your- selves justified by your license to trade, in selling land in the Oregon country ? — A special provision was made in the treaty for such sale, respecting our possessory vit^hts. 1JS7. Mr. Edward JSi.. v. ] That related tc property "hich the Comjiany actually created ?— Yes. 1288. Mr. G^'doii.] Which you could occupy, but not sell?— We were pro- prietors as well as occupiers. IJ89. What are the conditions now required of any settler takin»er is generally the first thing introduced in an American colony ? — Yes. 1301. Has there never been a wish expresseci by the settlers of the Red River colony to have a newspaper there ? — Not thai I am aware of. I suggested , some years ago, that they should get up a newspaper, but they could not get anybody to take charge of it. 1302. Can you tell me what is the freight per ton on goods iinported from London to the Red River? — £.5 a ton, and 1 '. for lighterage and storage, and being warehoused ; that is 6 /. 1303. It was lately a good deal higher than that, was it not, 8 /. or 9 1.1 — No ; i think it was lower. I believe there has bto.i very little change. 1304. I have hoard it repeatedly stated, that the cheapest way of receiving goods in the Red River for traders there is to have them transmitted by New Orlciins, and along the Mississippi ; that it is cheaper than tluir going by York Factory ; do you believe that to be the case? — Ti' • freight to ^'01 k is 5 ^. a ton. The freight from St. Paul's to Red River is 18 /. a ton, or 16*. the piece of 100 pounds. iSOf,. What is the distance from Red River to York Tactoryr— About 600 miles, I think; and the freight from York Factory is 20/. a ton to the Red River. 1306. Mr. Edward Ellice.] With regard to that freight, any person can take the goods as cheaply as they like? — Thev '•an take them any way they please; 0.2,5. ^4 'we l,Y^'-i 72 MINUTES OF EVIP':NCE TAKEN BKFOHK THE I , . I ■"■a I ifjji mi I- \\m vn VlH Hit G.Simpsnii. we pay that amount oursclvos. Wo do not do our own transport ; we usually employ tlu' tViMj;litt'r.s at the Red llivtT. Diliereut tradci do :lu; transport for •36 Fi-l)rmirv 1857. US i'roin York Factory to the Red River. 1,307. Mr. (lordoii.] What is the di^ttance from Red itiver to Lake Superior r — Six hundred miles. 1 308. You think that the distance from York Factory to Red River is not greater than from Fort William to Red River? — It is about the name, perliaps : but the freight from l^ake Superior to the Red River in the transport of the flour whieli I havf I liore mentioned, was 40.«. a pieci', or 45 /. a ton. ijof). The route i- m \ork Factory to Red River is not a very good one, is it r — It is very bad as lar ns Norway House. j;)io. ' . it not I e case that there have been petitions iVc n '.hn settlers in the Red River to have that route improved ? — We cannot n .klcwally improve it. It is not susceptible of improveuierit without a prodigious outlay ; such an outlay as { ar trafVto would not aft'oi'd. 1311. Mr. BflL] Has tliere been a petition? — lam not aware of a petition. We are very an.\iou8 that the route should be improved for our own purposes; but the outlay for improvement would be more than the trade could aflord. 131 J. Mr. Gordon.] You say that it is very bad ; do you think it worse, or not, so bad as the route to Fort William ? -It is not so bad, inasmuch as we can use boats, carrying about three tons, between York Factory and Red River, and the only means of transj)ort between Lake Superior and Red River is a small canoe. 1313. I sup|)ose, if the route to Lake Superior could be improved, it would be the shortest route from Enulanct for goods ; there would be water communication up to Lake Superir)r ? — Yes. 1314. It would be easier than by Hudson's Bay ? — I think the route caimot be improved stifficiently for the transport of goods. '3i.^' What are the great difHculties on that route which prevent its being improved ? — The depth of water in the river, the interruption from rapids and falls, and the swampy chaacter ot the country. i3i(>. Is not that the way which the old North-West Company used to carry all their supplies for the use of the interior? — It is. 1317. Then they must have carried along there nearly as much as you carry from York Factory ? — No ; it was not one-tenth of the transport that we have from York. 1318. If i ui)f erstood you rightly, you said that the copy of the resolutions, dated 184.'), \tas not authentic; I have a copy of the resolution witli respect to the dutii-'i tu b( paid on all imports into the settlement? — That resolution, I think, '.•. = :■. (Iiiiir G. simpiou. tor insluiicc, u part of Miickciizies llivcr, it occupies seven yeuis ; that is, (roni the time the ijoods are shipped iii London until tlie returns are brought to sale in *^ leoruory i^i7. Entiliind. I ;}-'.■)• schools, has any obstacle ■r ihc instruction of the uraged. ^c!i, i\lr. .James I-eitli. F Yes. Then seven yciirs would he the extreme ? — Yew. I3j(i. And w!\iit would he the inininuun .'— Kroni three to four years. l;}j!7. It ranjies from three to seven years r — V^es. l;VJS. y\v. Klniiitird.] You have not told us anything about the Uiiture ot the iKipulatiou iu Vancouver's Ishuid ? — I know very little about Vancouver's Island ; I have not lieen there since it Wiis cst'.iblished. ijj(). (an you tell me the state of tlie population on the west of the Rocky Mountains ; of the Indians there ? — The Indiiins aro all in u state of warfare in Oregon. In tlie Hritish territory they are more independent ; they have a better position as re;;ards means of subsistence than on the east side of the mountains ; Hsil i- vi'i V abundant ; salmon. 1 ■_},,,.. is tiiere no process ff settlement : — None. Thece are Indian villages along the coast, and salmon are very abundant, and deer are very al)undant, and on some of the islands they raise pot. toes. I ;;}!. Mr. CIhuIiii l''itziiilli(i»i. ] With refe'' to ever been put in the way of schools being e^la. '<"' Indians? — Never. On the contrary, they have i (33 J. Did you know Mr. I.i ithii a chief ' knew him intimately. 1 333. lie died some years ago 'f — Yes, 1334. lie had amassed a considerable sum of 1335. Which on his death he bc(|ueathed to >auous puiposes ? — Yes. 1331). Can >ou tell the Committee what tiiose purposes were? — I think the ))roiuotion of religion in the Company's territories; religion or religious instruc- tion ; 1 for;:et the precise terms. 1337. ^lr. Edward Ellice.] The amount was 10,000 /., was not it?— Ye». 1338. Mr. C/iiir/cs Fitzrcilluim.] Are you sure that it was not for education, and not religion? - I cannot speak to the will, but the e.\( cutors, I think, were the Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the (iovernor of the Hudson's Bay Company, and his own brother. 1339. How has that money been a|)plied ? — To the suppoit of this mission. 1340. Of what mission? — The Bishop of Rupert's Land. 1341. But a little while ago yon informed us that the Company paid to the Bishop of Rupert's Land a salary of '100/. a year ? — Yes. 1342. What has become of the income of 300/. a year, which is the interest on 10,000/., more or less? — I am not able to answer the question. I cannot state distinctly how the application of this money has been made. 1343. .Mr. ZiOMf.] You say that it goes to tlie Bishop of Rupert's Land ? — I think it is under his direction. 1344. Mr. Grogaii.] You spoke of the Company possessing rights in Oregon, which rights w ere recognised under the treaty vvith America r — Yes. 1 34,5. What were those rights ; a licence to trade r — They were our posses- sory rights, whatever they were ; there is a difficulty as to the interpretation of possessory rights. 1346. Lands which you have improved and cultivated?— Yes. There is a question as to what the possessory rights may be considered ; different lawyers give diti'erent opinions upon the subject. The late Daniel Webster considered that wherever our trappers wrought, wherever our wood-cutters hewed timber, wherever our Hocks and herds ranged, we had jiossessory rights. Other lawyers have given a different interpretation 1347. Had you the exclusive right to trade in that district ? — The same licence to trade as we had on the east side of the mountains. 1348. Do you consider that you have that right now: — Yes; our licence to ♦"•ade has not expired yet ; it will expire in 1859. 1349. If an Knglishman went to that district and attempted to trade in furs, do you consider that you would have the power to prevent his doing so? — I think so. 1350. If un American were to do it, do you think you vrould have the power to prevent him ?— I think so. 0.25. K 1351. Do \Vl ff\ \. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) LO if I.I ^ m IM 2.2 "^ 1^ 12.0 IL 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 •« 6" ► V2 ^ /a >>- ^^^'J /A « rV'^ 7 Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE I n Sir O.Simpton. 1351- Do you think he would be prevented by you ? — I do not know that he — would. 96 February 1857. 13,52. Mr. Edward EUice.'\ With reference to the council at Norway House, is it not one of the objects ot the council to assemble together once a year the persons having chary;e of tlie posts in distant parts of the country? — Yes. •3,53- 'n order that they may compare notes, and consult together in the aggregate as to what should be done r — Yes. 1354. That is the only time for bringing them together? — Yes. 1355. The country, I believe, is as large as Europe r — The country is of pro- digious extent : I have an estimate of the mileage. 1356. Mr. JdderUji/.] Would it not be possible to govern the country by delegated authority at different distances from the centre ; do you suppose that in the general settlement of the whole of this territory, as big as Europe, it would be absolutely necessary always to refer home, on every detail of management, to Norway House? — No, 1 should conceive not. 1357. Is it the case that there is that reference between the Government of Red River and Norway House • -No. 1358. Is there none whatever? — No. 1359. Did you not state that the Company opposed themselves to another settlement on" the borders of Red River, as being too distant from the seat of government ?— They did not decidedly oppose it, but they discouraged it. I /i6o. On that ground ?- Our -As being more (iifficult of management. 1361. From its distance from Norway House ?— No, iiom Assiniboia. gaol, and court-house and police, are all in the settlement. 1362. When you Sfjcak of the seat of government, what do you mean ? — The seat of government of -Assiniboia, which forms a circuit of 30 miles by the com- pass from the forks of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers. 1363. Have the inhabitants of the Red River Settlement any influence what"- soever over the decisions of the council which govern them ? — ^The principal inhabitants of Red River are themselves the councillors of Assiniboia, with the governor. 1364. When you say tliut the recorder is governor ol' Red River, do you mean that he is ex officio always so .'—No ; he w as considered a very tit man to hold both offices. , , , 1 • • 11 1 1365. He was so appointed r—\ es ; he was the recorder ongujally, and on the retirement of the former governor he had the commissio-i of governor like- 1366. Who appoints his council ?— They are appointed by tiie Company, at the suggestion of the governor, or on the application of any of the inhabitants. 1 367 But is it an appointment by the governor, or an application by the habitants r— Both. The Company is willing to appoint anybody who may be He was inhabi considered a fit person qualified for the office. 1368. What is the name of the present recorder ?— hrancis Johnson, a Queen's counsel in Canada. . , , r,,, i3(i(). For what length of time are the members appointed?— I here is no limitation of the time. * ., , ■ ^ a ■ t tu ,370. Are their appointments for life? -No; there is no hxed i)eriod ; they are appointed councillors. M71. During pleasure? -During pleasure. . , „, . »» n72 Are the council at Norway House appomted m tlie same way .— At Norway House the factors are councillors under their comnussioii. ,373 Are they appointed during pleasure ?-No; it is whde they hold the commission of factor. , ,, .. ^ ^e ^o:„„ ,374. For the whole length of the tenure ?-Ye8, the tenure of otbce. 1 37-;. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is under the charter ?— It is. 1376. Mr. Adderley.-] Is your appointment an appointment for life r— No ; my appointment is by the Governor and Committee. 1377 Mr. Roebuck.} I think it is a double government. You hav.; a govern- menVin England and one in Hud.on'8 Bay, have you not?-The Governor and Company are the superiors ; they have the supreme direction. 1378. The Governor and Company i" England appoint the Governor m Hudson's Bay ?— They do 1379. According SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSOVS BAY COMPANY. 75 Sir G. Simpsm. 1379. According to their will and pleasure, and his appointment is revoked at tlieir will and pleasure? — It is so. I ;8o. So that, in fact, the Goteriior out there is the downright servant of the "^ February 1857. Governor and Company here ? — He is positively their servant. i;^8i. And wiiat they desire him to do he is bound to do? — He is. 13S2. Where does he live usually when he gets to that country ? — I have been the Governor for the last 37 years, and I have lived nearly all over North Ameiica. I have lived in Oregon, I have lived in Hudson's Bay, in Red River, at York Factory, and in Athabasca. I have travelled the whole country over. 1 383. There are no head-quarters of the Government, then, and tlie talk about the Governor and council is a mere idle statement ? — No. The Governor of Assiniboia is resident upon the spot. 1384. I remark that you always allude to your Ked River Government at Assiniboia ; did you not just now say that that simply occupied a circuit of 50 miles by the compass ?— Ves. 138,5. And the whole countrj', you have told us, and the map tells us also, is as large as Europe ? — Yes. 138(1. So that when you talk of that small territory, it is like talking of San Marino, in Europe r — Criminals would be sent down to Assiniboia. 1387. If a murder were committed on the shores of the .-Arctic Sea, would the mail be sent down to Assiniboia r— Yes, in the first instance. 138R. Have you ever known an instance of a murder on the shores of the Arctic Sea : — Not on the shores of the Arctic Sea, but within the Arctic circle. 1380. Can you state that case to me? — I cannot give all the details from memory. 1390. Mr. Edward Ellirc] Was that the case which you spoke of before to-day ? — Y'es ; Creole le Oraisse was one ; there were three. 139 1 . Mr. Roebuck.] So that in your long life there of 30 odd years you have known three cases?— That was one particular case; those three person? were accomplices ; tiiey were sent to Canada for trial. 1392. Are those the only cases which you recollect r — ^The only cases in the Arctic regions, that I recollect. '393- How many criminals do yon suppose are annually tried at Assiniboia ? — I think the whole of the criminal cases within my recollection are but 19 in the 37 years. 1394. And that you call administerinji; justice in that country ? — Yes. 139.5- We may take that as a specimen of the administration of justice in those countries under the rule of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Of the absence of crime, I should hope ; we claim to ourselves great credit. 1396. Do you mean to say that in your tenure of office there for 37 years there has been only in fact 19 criminals in that country? — I think so. 1397. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Are those serious cases or minor ofieucea? — Serious cases. 1398. Mr. Roebuck.] Take murders: do you mean to say that in all your term of office of upwards of 30 years, there have been only 19 murders committed in the whole of the Hudson's Bay territory? — There were II people killed in this particular case which I am referring to. 1399. Do you mean to say that in the 37 years of your gor-inment of that country there have been only 19 murders committed? — Nineteen cases; I said there were 1 1 murders in that first case which I spoke of. 1400. I want to ascertain what has been the administration of justice in Uiat country ; I want to know how many persons have been brought to justice ; you tell me 19? — Since 1821 there have been 19 cases of homicide in which the Hudson's Bay Company's people were concerned ; in 1 1 punishment was inflicted ; one prisoner was tried and acquitted ; one was a case of justifiable homicide ; three accused parties died before being captured, and in three cases there was no evidence to proceed against them ; those arc the 19 cases. 1401. Do vou say that that fairly represents the state of crime in that country ? —I do. 1402. Do you mean to say that since 1821, the date that you have quoted, there have been only those 19 cases of murder in that country? — In which the Company's people were concerned ; in the wars that take place in the plains among the Blackfeet there are cases in which we cannot interfere. 0.25. K 2 1403. I refer 1 Mf ■i! 1 1 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir 6 Jlimpson. 1403. I refer to cases over which the recorder has jurisdiction ? — Yes. 1404. That is your estimate of the crime in that country ?— Yes. «6 February 1857. ,^(,^ jyj^ Edward Ellicc.'} In short, it is your knowledge ?— Yes, as far as my knowledge goes. 1406. Mr. Roebuck.] I have a book in my hand published by you I think in 1847 ? — Very possibly. • 1407. How long had you been then Governor of that country? — Twenty-seven years. 1408. And 1 suppose that in those 27 years you had acquired a good detil of experience ? — Yes. 1 409. Arc we to take this book as the result of your experience of 27 years ? — I think you may. 1410. And all that you stated then was your view after 27 years' experience of that country ? — I think so. 1411. So that if you had died at that moment, which I am very happy to see that you did not, we might have taken this book as your view of that country ? — Y'es. 1412. Has anything happened since that time to alter your views of tiiat country r — No, I do not know that 1 have materially altered my views in regard to it. 1413. I know that this passage has been read to you before, but its matter has struck me very much, from its poetry as well as otherwise, and 1 will read it again, and ask you why, if you have changed your opinion, you have changed it : "The river which empties Lac la Pluie into the Lake of the Woods, is, in more than one respect, decidedly the finest stream on the whole route. From Fort Frances downwards, a stretch of nearly a hundred miles, it h not interrupted by a single impediment, while yet the current is not strong enough materially to retard au ascending tiaveller. Nor are the banks less favourable to agriculture than the waters themselves to navigation, resembling in some measure those of the Thames uear Richmond. From the very brink of the river there rises a gentle slope of greensward, crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of birch, poplar, beech, elm, and oak. Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy to discern, through the vista of futurity, this noble stream, connecting as it does the fertile shores of two spacious lakes, with crowded steamboats on its bosom, and populous towns on its borders"? — I speak of tiie bank of the river there. 1414. I am going to direct your attention to the river itself; the river itself was at that time capable of bearing steamboats r — Quite so. 1415. Is it not so now ? — It is. 1416. And the Land was very fertile then, you say ? — ^The right bank of the river which I speak of, indeed both banks, the lip of the rive* 1417. You say, " Nor are the banks less favourable ;" you ■> lO both*banks r — Yes ; I confine myself to the banks ; the back country is o le deep morass, extending for miles. 1418. So that anybody reading that passage would have very much mistaken the nature of the country if he had thought that that was the description of it ? — Not as regards the banks ; I confine myself to the banks. 1419. Does a traveller usually give such descriptions of a country as that? — ■ Yes, I, as a traveller, did so. 1420. Then we may take that to be a specimen of your view of the country? — You may. 1421. I will now direct your attention to that portion of the country stretchiag round the Red River Settlement. Supposing you took the compass as far as the boundary line, and struck a circle roup 1, how far is the Red River Settlement from the boundary ? — About 50 miles. 1422. That would be a diameter of 100 miles ? — Yes. 1423. Supposing you took a square, and you included Lake Winnipeg, up to the north, and went to Cumberland House, and you then came down the parallel of longitude 105°, making a very large square of 10 degrees of longitude and five degrees of latitude, you would have a large territory, would not you r — It would be a large territory. 1424. A good large colony ? — Yes. 1425. Supposing SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 77 142.5. Supposing that were done, and it were erected into a territory, say at the end of the United States ; do yuu suppose that that country could be self- supporting ?— I think not. J42fi. Why ? — On account of the poverty of the soil ; along the banks of the river I have no question that a settlement might be self-supporting ; a popu- lation thinly scattered along the banks of the river might support themselves, but a dense population could not live in that country ; the country would not afford the means of subsistence. 1427. That is your view of the country ? — That is my view of the country. 1428. You are here to tell us that the country is very barren, and could not support a population ? — It could not support a large population, and, moreover, there is no fuel ; the fuel of the country would be exhausted iu the course of a very few years. i4.i9. Why is tliere no fuel ; are thers no woods ? — No woods ; all that prairie country is bare of woods. 1430. And yet I see the country upon this map marked green, and they tell me that that signifies the woody country ? — Yes, that is the woody country. 1431. Mr. Grogan.l You described the river at the Rainy Lake, in the passage read by Mr. Roebuck, as capable of bearing steamboats at the time that book was written ? — Yes. 1^32. For about GO miles of its distance.^ — Probably about 60 miles. 1433. Is it in the same condition now ? — Yes; from the outlet of Rainy Lake to the Lake of the Woods, there are four rapids. 1 434. But those rapids you do not consider would be an impediment to steam navigation r — Two of them would be, and a third rapid, at the establishment, would be an impediment. M3.5- What may be its extent r — It is a waterfall of about 40 or 50 feet. 1436. For a quarter of a mile, or less ?— The portage formed by this waterfall is a quarter of a mile. 1437. You would then get into the Rainy Lake; that is navigable, of course r —Yes. 1438. For a steamer ?— Yes. 1439. ^ hen I see a series of small lakes going down towards Whitewood ; are they navigable r — No. 1440. Am I to understand you that, from the Lake of the Woods down to Whitewood Lodge or House, it would be navigable for a steamboat also?— No, but to the end of Lac la Pluie. 1441. What distance is that altogether; is it 60 m'es?— The Lake of the Woods is about 60 miles. 1442. A second 60 miles ? — A second 60 miles. 1443. That would be 120 ?— Yes. The river 'runs from the Rainy Lake down to the Lake of the Woods, and from the Lake of the Woods the River Winnipeg flows down to Lake Winnipeg. 1444. Is it navigable for that distance ?— Not the River Winnipeg. There are a number of portages in it, and the river is not navigable except ^y boats. The part of the navigation which is fit only for canoes is from the Ramy Lake to Fort William, Lake Superior. 1445. What distance is that r— That is about 300 miles. 1446. Mr. Edward EUice.] Are reports of the conduct of each servant sent in by the chief factors and traders every year?— No ; reports upon the character of the whole establishment are sent in ; if there is any thing remarkable it is noted. 1447. And each chief factor is responsible for the conduct ot the servants under him ? — Decidedly. Sir G. Simpioiu '.'FT Mm.^.-. 1 i '■ ' afi February 1357. n 0.25. K3 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE LnncE, 2° die Martii, 1857. MEMBERS present; Ml. Adiierlcv. Mr. Bell. Mr. Bliickburn. Mr. Edward Ellicf. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliani. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Gordon. Mr. tiregAi)!). Mr. Grogan. Mr. Guriif V. Mr. Percy Hi-.rberi. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Labouchere. Mr. Lowe. Sir John I'akington. Mr. Rueback. Lord Joliii Rusitelj. ViscouiK Sandoii. Lord Siaiilev. The Rioht Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE m the Ch.ur. Sir George S'tnqysoii, called in ; and further Examined. 9\r G. Simptoti. 144^. Mr. Kdivard Ellice.] YOU were asked the other day to ham! in a copy of tlie land deed by which tiio Company convey land to settlers at Red River ' a March 1857. — Yes ; here it is. The leading conditions are, not to deal in furs; not to distil or import spirituous liquors ; to resist foreign invasion, and to promote religious Vide Appendix, instruction. — ( T/ic same was delivered in.) 1440. With regard to the Indian Settlement at Cumberland, you were asked sonic ([ucstions with reference to a sum of money of 10,000/. which was left by the late »V(r. Leith, who had been in the Company's service? — Yes. 1450. Will you have the goodness to explain that matter ? — The words of the bequest are the following : The legacy by James Leith was " for the purpose of establishing, propagating and extending the Ciiristian Protestant religion in and amongst tlie native aboriginal Indians of Rufiert's Land." The fund, with the accuuiiiiutions of interest, now amounts to 13,345/. 1451 . Mr. Roebuck.] What are you quoting from ? — ^The words of the will. 14 '",2. Is that the only statement in the will ; does the will say nothing of the means by which religion is to be propagsUed .' — No. These are the words : " For the purpose of eetabUshing, propagating, and extending the Christian Protestant religion in and amongst the native aboriginal Indians of Rupert's Land." ^A.'i'.i- Is that all ?— That is all that is said upon the subject. 1454. Mr. Ed'uxird Ellice. \ I think you stated the other day that the money was left to certain trustees!- — Yes. The sum now amounts to 13,345/. Three per Cent. Consols. 1 455. Mr. Boelmck.] That you do not quote from the will ? — No. 1456. Mr. Edward Ellke.'] That is lodged in Chancery, is it not? — Yes, it is now in Chancery. 1457. By whom is it administered? — It was commilted to the Bishop of Rupert's Land by the Court of Chancery, upon the understanding that the Hudson' Bay Company would add to t^c Bishop's income a salary of 300/. per annum, and provide him with a residence. 1458. Which the Company did:— Yes. The executors are, I think, the Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, and his own brother, Mr. William Leith. 1459. They are the trustees by whom the fund is administered? — Yes. 1460. VVith regard to the pensions of retired servants of the Company, have you anythinj^ to add to your former statement? — Yes. I was asked whether there was any pension for retired servants. There is a sum of 300/. a year set aside from the profits uf tiie trade to pension old and deserving officers. To servants and others not entitled to participate in that fund, special grants are SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 79 are made on the ncommendation of the councils. When servants are incapa- citated by age for active duty, they are superannuated, and kept at the posts as supernumeraries, rendering such voluntary si rvice as they please in return for their food and clothing. 1461. You were also asked to put in the census of the Red River population. Have vou it ?--Yes. 1462. Will you put it in '^ — {The Witness delivered in the same.) The total population shown is 6,500; add the population of Portage la Prairie, Manitobah, and Pembina, l.oOO ; making a total of 8,000. I4(i3. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you tell us where those places are, so that we may know the area of country ? — They are parts of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers. The settlement extends along those rivers, up and down, above and below the fort. I ^64. You stated a certain number of names. I want to know where those names are upon that map ? — I am statinju; where the first is. 146,5. The first is the Red River Settlement? — Yes. Mfiti- What is the next ? — The next is Portage la Prairie, about 60 miles above Red River, upon the Assiniboine ; Manitobah is about 60 miles in a northerly direction, upon a lake of that name. i4t)7. Mr. Edivard RUiceJ] Will you point out Pembina? {The same was pointed out.) 14(")8. Mr. Roebuck.'] What is the number of the population in those places? — Eight thousand. 14(19. Whites and altogether? — Yes. 1470. Mr. Edicard Etlice.] Have you put it in in detail ? — Yes. 1471. You were also asked to put in the census of the Indian population in detail over tiie whole territory ? — Yes. Here is the census of the Indian popu- lation. Tiiei e is a list of the Company's trading posts, and the estimated number of Indians frefjuenting those posts. [The Witness delivered in tliesame.) 1472. Mr. Roelmck.] Will you state the total? — The Indians, east of the n.ountains, 55,000 ; west of the mountains, 80,000 ; Esquimaux, 4,000. >473- What is the date of that census ? — Last year. 1474. Have you any census for 20 years back ? — We have no regular census. It is a very ditHcult matter to get a census ; the tribes are so migratory that it is impossible to fill up a correct census ; this is an estimation. 147,",. Did the Company ever attempt to make a census in times past? — We havo attempted it in various jjarts of the country. 1476. Have you that census ?— T have no census. 1477. Could you get it?— Not in less than two or three years; two years certainly. 1478. Why would it take you that time to get it? — On account of the dis- tance ; sending off now, we could not get the census in the most remote part of Mackenzie's River before IS months or two years from this date. 1470 I asked you if the Company had made attempts to get a census some years back, and you said they had ? — Yes, we have, from time to time, in different parts of the country. 1480. Can you put the Committee in possession of those censuses? — I think not. 1481. Why not? — I do not know that they have been sent here. But our estimate of the population has been confirmed by travellers ; for instance, Colonel Lefroy took an estimate of the population. 1 482. You give the census now. I want to get the census 20 years back, to know whether the population has increased or decreased? — I cannot supply that. 1483. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Colonel Lefroy's estimate was made in 1843, I think ; that is 13 years ago? — Yes. 1484. When was Major Warre's made; in 1845, 1 think? — Yes. 1 485. With regard to the use *" spirituous liquors, you were asked the other day whether there were any rules in the council, or any published regulations regarding them ; have you got any such rules ? — Yes. I have first an extract from the standing rules and regulations of the fur trade, dated 1843, prohibiting the use of spirituous liquors. Likewise, a copy of the 42d minute of the council for the southern department, dated 1851, prohibiting the importation of spirituous liquors into that department. Thirdly, a copy of an agreement, 0.25. K 4 dated Sir G. Simpiun. 3 March 1857. Vide Appendix. Vide Appendi.x. 8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE iiiili iihi< !i; 'III ! } ■ l^ Hit c.Simpton. dated 13th May 1842, between the Hudson's Bay Company and the Rustiian- American Company, proliibiting tlie use of spirituous liquors on the north-west a March 1857. coast of America. yide Ap(>»nilii. 148(1. Will } ou hand those in r — {The Witness (Jelinred in the snuie.) 14S7. You were also asked with reference to the refusal of the Company to export some goods belonging to a man named Sinclair, at Red River? — Ves. 1488. Have you any explanation to give of that circumstance? — In 1844, Mr. Sinclair forwardrd to Y'ork a (juantity of tallow, for the purpose of shipment to England in the Company's vessel. The ship was so full, that a iar;;e quantity of theCompaiiy's property and Mr.Sinclair's tallow were left out. As it was doubtful Mhether room could be found in the following season, the Company took the tallow off the hands of Mr. Sinclair, on his own terms, on the 25th of July 1845. But although the property of the Company, it remained there for a year after- wards, for want of room in our ships. 1489. Mr. lioehuck!] Was there any attempt to accumulate tallow by other persons, besides Mr. Sinclair, the next year? — Mr. Sinclair, and, I think, Mr. M'Dermot, collected tallow, and sent it down for shipment to York lactory. 1490. The next year? — In the year 1844. 1491. That was the first year ; I asked you with reference to the second year? — The second year I am not aware that there was any tallow shipped. 1492. Was there an accumulation of tallow by other parties besides Mr. Sinclair in that territory ? — I think not. 1493. There was none brought? — None that I am aware of; Mr. Sinclair and Mr. M'Dermot were the only two parties that I have any recollection of as having coI]( cted tallow for the purpose of shipment to F^ngland. 1494. I think you say the Company left the tallow there, and they did not buy it until the next year ? — They could not ship it ; a large quantity of the Company's goods were likewise shut out. 1495. That is to say, the Company having the exclusive right of trading there, did not provide shipping enough to carry it on r — Yes ; there was not shipping enough that season. 1496. Mr. Edward Ellice.] But I think you stated the other day that there was no objection on the part of the Company to any other person chartering a freight if he liked ; to take away or to bring anything lie wanted ? — Not at all ; 1 have suggested to Mr. M'Dermot and Mr. Sinclair, and various other people, that they had better charter a ship for themselves. 1497. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you mean to say that the Company would allow any- body to send ships into Hudson's Bay, to trade in that part of the world r — No, not for the purpose of trade ; I said that the inhabitants of Red River are quite at liberty to import their own supplies in their own ships. 1498. How much tallow was there ? — ^There may have been a few tons ; I do not exactly recollect the number of packages. 1499. -^nd you suggested to the senders that they should get a large ship, to carry 200 tons of tallow ? — No ; we take out about 10,000 /. worth of property for them sometimes. 1500. You say that you oifefed to those gentlemen, Mr. Sinclair and Mr., IM'Dermot, the power to charter a .ship to carry that tallow to England? — Yes ; at that time they were talking of forming a large association for the purpose of breeding cattle for the export of tallow, and for growing hemp or flax ; I suggested that they should charter a vessel for themselves for such puqioses. 1501 . Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Have the Company ever chartered vessels so small as 200 tons to take out their property ? — Yes, several ; there was a ship called the " George," and others. 1502. Mr. Roebuck.] There were 200 tons of tallow left behind that year? — 1 do not say there were 200 tons, but there was a quantity of tallow : I cannot fix upon any specific amount. 1503. You say there was no increase of that quantity the next year? — No, I do not think there was any. 1504. And you suggested to these parties that they might then charter a vessel to carry home that tallow? — No, not then, but previously for many years I had suggested it ; they talked of forming a large export trade of colonial produce; I said, "Very well ; there can be no objection on the part of the Company." SELE(rr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 8i )r)05. We are now directin;; our attention to this portion of tallow, and you Sit O. Simpioii. tell us I hat you suggested to tdeae parties that tliey might charter a ship ; did yon suggest to them that they might charter a ship to carry home that tallow ? a March 18^7. -No. i,'>u6. What did they do with that tallow r — They sold it to the Company. 1507. They could do nothing else I suppose? — ^Th^y miglit have allowed it to remain there till there was an opportunity of exporting it. 1.508. Till it pleased the Company to take it homer — No, not till it pleased the Company to take it home, but till they had an opportunity. 1.509. What opportunity could they have?- Their own ships. 151U. That is to f>ay, if they chartered ships according to your suggestion ? — The Company have certain ships; they generally send two ships a year to York Factory, and if there was room in those shii>8, they would naturally take tallow as a matter of course, or any other (iroduce they miglit have. 151 1. • Do you not think that a mode of proceeding uhiuh would put an end to all trade i — No ; I think if the trade was sufficiently extended, the Company would piovide shipping, or ihe settlers might provide shipping themselves. 1512. Was not there more produce than the Company's ships could carry home upon that occasion ? — Yes ; perhaps there were 30, 40, 50 or 60 tons. 1513. I understood you 200? — You said 200; I said there were a few hundred weight, or possibly tons. 1514. It was for that that they were to charter a ohip ? — No. I5)i.<). Mr. Greffson.] Did you not say that you had not sufficient tonnage that season for your own goods?— We had not sufticient tonnage that season for our own goods ; we were obliged to leave out some of our own goods. i5i(). Mr. Jioehuck.] That is to say, you did not charter vessels enough even for your own trade? — Yes. 1517. And yet you were traders? — Yes; it very frequently happens in the port of London, as in every other port, i believe, that goods are left out. 1518. With respect to the manufactured goods which you take out to that territory, have you any account of the amount of goods which you annually take out to that territory f — No. 1.519. Could you get it ? — I could ; I could obtain an estimate of it. 1.520. Possibly, not knowing the actual quai>tity, you can tell me tlie mode in which the goods, whatever may he the quantity, are distributed ? — 1 think the imports into the country by the Company are about 60,000 /. a year ; at the York Factory, Moose and East Main ; that is to say, to the Bay. 1521. Can you give me any idea how that 60,000/. worth of goods is distributed over that immeuse territory r — I think about two-thirds of that quantity of goods is given to the Indians ; however, this is merely an approxi- mation ; I have no ii>iures. 1522. What was the number of Indians which you just now stated ?- On the east side of the Rocky Mountains, 55,000. 1523. 1 suppose that quantity is confined to the east side of the Ricky Mountains ? — Yes. 1524. You distribute 40,000/. worth of g:oods among 65,000 Indians? — I think that is about the estimate. 1 525. What are those goods usually composed of? — British manufactures ; the staple articles are blankets, cloths, arms, ammunition, iron works, axes, and various things. 1526. I will direct your attention to arms; in what way are they sold; are they sold by bat ter or for money ? — They are sold by barter. 1537. For so many skins? — For so many skins. 1528. When you sell a gun to an Indian, do you ever take inferior skins for that gun ? — We outfit the Indian. 1.529. Cannot you answer me that question? — We do not sell a gun for skins ; we give «he gun to the Indian, as everything else, on credit, and he pays for those supplies in the spring of the year. 1530. Supposing a gun is sold to an Indian, would you take in payment an inferior kind of skins? — We lake in payment whatever he can give us. 1 53 1 • If an Indian had nothing but musk rat skins, you would take those ? — Yes. 0.35. L 1532. Do hi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN Bl.PoRE THE ' '(^ m f II ' III >f": i 1" f i Sir (y. Simpton. 3 March 1897. Do you mean to tell me that?— Indian whatever he could give 1 mean to say that we would take us. The Indian must have certain from an BUpplil'B. i.')3;}- My question is a very plain one; would you take musk rat skins in payment for a gun from an Indian? — Certainly; we take whatever the Indian can give us. 1534. And you nicun to state that to me, that fjuns are sold to Indians with the full undtistiindinK that they may pay \ou i)ack in musk mt skins • — If an Indian lias nothing but musk rat skins, we will take musk rat skins. K'^'^5• Sujiposing that were to occur with an Indian once, would he lie likely to get a second gun r — Yes, decidedly, if he required it. i,')3(i. Do you know the relative proportions between musk rat skins and beavirs ? — We have a variety of tarilTn ; it depends upon the part of the country where the goods are traded ; as, for insiimce, in Canada we pay in a great degree money for our furs. On the American frontier we pay fre(|uently in money ; in ihe interior if is principally a barter trade ; and on the frontier we are regulated in ourpricts by the prices given by opposition. i.-)37- Are ihe prices rather higher upon the frontier than they are in the interior of the country ? — Yes. 1,538. Does not that arise from the competition ? — Yes. 1.530. So that the Indian, where there is competition, gets more than he does where there is none .-—He does. 1540. Does not that rather improve the condition of the Indian ? — No, cer- tainly not. i,')4i. So that getting more does not improve him? — No, it does not improve his condition. 1 think that the condition of the Indian, in the absence of oppo- sition, is better than where he is exposed to opposition. 1542. Chuiniiaii.] For what reasons' — The absence of spirituous liquors. 1543. Mr. Rotbuck.] First of all let us understand this: in the interior of the country you say \ou barter with the Indian ?— Yes i.';44. And on the frontier you give him money? That frequently happens in some parts of the country. • 545- On the frontier he gets a larger price for his interior ? — Yes. 1546. And you say that notwithstanding that, he is better off in the interior than he is on the frontier, becau.^e in the one case he gets spirituous liquors, and in the other case he does not ? — .\nd in other respects. The Indian in the interior depends upon us fur all his supplies ; whether he is able to pay for ihem or not, he gets them ; he geii his blankets, he gets his gun, and he gets his am- munition If from death in his family, or any other cause, he makes no hunt, it cannot be helped. 1547. I suppose you recollect ihatyou distribute among the Indians less than 1 /. a head .' — Very possibly we do. i.'',4ii. I want you to tell me.the condition of the Indian in the interior : is he ever starved to death in the winter ? — Very rarely. 1,5^9. Ho that if travellers tell us that story tiiey tellus a traveller's story ? — Indians do starve us v^hites do starve sometitiies. 1.550. lia\e you ever heard of Indians being reduced to cannibalism during the winter ?— Yes. I think 1 have, and uf whiles likewise. 1.5', 1. Because they have not en( agh to eat, I suppose? — Yes. 1.5.52. Upon what, in the hunlinu territory, does the Indian live? — lathe prairie country he Vi^e^ principally upon buffalo meat. 1.5.53. Does the burtalo reach to where the fur country is ? — There are a few furs in the buttalo country. 1.5.54. 1 8m talking ot the fur country, where the people pass their time in hunting tor furs : how do they live in the winter' — They live in a great degree upon fish. 1.5.5,5. Are they from one year to another fully supplied with fish? — I think generally speaking they are. 1 ,5.56. Vou still have instances in your recollection of cannibalism occurring? — Cannibalism has occurred repeatedly. '557« When did it occur in your recollection?— I do not exactly recollect; I think goods than he does iti the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANV. 83 Bome cases of cannibulidra in tlie last few years in the sir O. Siwtpmm. I think there were Athabiiscii country. IV, 8. I hav*! before me a letter of Mr. Kennedy: I suppose von have heard of Mr. Kennedy? — Tliere are several Kennedys; which Korimdy do you mean ? i5-,t(. He is n person who has quarrelled with your Company, 1 believe; and he wrote a letter to Lord Klgin ? — William Kennedy. i.8.'i. Mr. lioihucA.] You distinctly said that Nascopie was a station belonging to the Hudson's Bay Company r — Ytn. 158(). This account xpiaks of Nascop'e ? — Yes. 1 ',>S7. Therefore it belongs to the tludson's Hay Company? — It did belong; to the Hudson's Bay Company. i/jSH. Mr Orogan.] Has it ever been abandoned? — I do not even know whether it is at present occupied or not. i.ijSc). Mr. Kdward Etlice.\ It is still occupied ? — Yes. i.'ion. Mr. UotbiicA.] So that it still belongs to the Hudson's Bay Company? — It always has belonged to the Hudson's Bay Company, when it hm been occupied. i.5()i. It just now belonged to Labrador: — LTpon the coast of Labrador; we have establishments upon the coast of Labrador. i,59-.>. Mr. Biackhum,] Are these posts sometimes in Labrador, and some- times in the Hudson's Bay territory P — Tlicy are moved as circumstances may render advisiible. 1.503. Mr. Roebuck.] But they are always under the command of the Hud- son's Bay Comp.iny ? — Yes. 1594. So that wherever they are moved to they belong to the Hudson's Bay Company t— Hudson's Bay establishments are under the control of the Hudson's Bay Company, but there are other establishments in the immediate neighbour- hood. 1595. Chairman.'] Is there any arrangement with the government of Labra- dor, by which you use that territory for your purposes 7 — It is open for any- body. 1596. In truth it is practically unoccupied? — Yes. 1,597. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you allow me to read to you another passage: " There are some extensive tracts xii country in which the means of subsist- ence are scnnty in the extreme. In the region lying between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg, the natives, during the winter, can with difficulty collect enough of food to support life. In the country lying immediately north of the Canadas, though fur bearing animals are still comparatively numerous, and the trade consequently valuable, the poor Indians have at all times a hard fight against famine. In this tract of country fish is at all seasons scarce, and in winter the »ole dependence of the natives for subsistence is placed upon rabbits (the most wretched food upon which to exist for any time that can pos- sibly be conceived), and when these fail the most fri;>htful tragedies at times take place. Parents have been known to lengthen out a miserable existence l)y killing and devouring their own offspring ; " do you believe that r — That is an exaggerated statement. 1 598. Did you ever know a book called " The Life of Thomas Simpson " ? — I did. 1599. By whom was it written? — It was written by Mr. Thomas Simpson, I believe. i6oo. And if that is an extract from Mr. Thomas Simpson's book, you say it is an exaggeration?— I do not know what part of the country he speaks of. 1601. Between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg?— There is a very thin population there. ifioj. Who was Mr. Thomas Simpson?— Mr. Thomas Simpson was a distant relative of mine. I lioj. Was not he a long time in the Company's service ?~ No. 1604. Was SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 85 1(104. Was not he n lon/^ time in that country r — No ; when I (ay not a long tinu', I Hpeak comparatively. 1 think lie may liuve lieeii six or seven } cart in the country alto^lher, i>r seven or eight years with me. i(io.<;. You Nay that that siatement made hy him (because you say tlie life is written by himselOi is an exaggeration r — Yes ; bet^veen Red Uiver and Lake Superior, which I b<'lieve is the tract of country he speaks of, tlie population is exceedingly thin, and never was numerous. I ()()(). Do you know a book called " Ballanlyne's Hudson's Day''?— Yes, I have read it. I (toy. In that book thrre ix this statement : "At these posts the Indians are frequently reduced to cannibalism, and the Comimny's people have on more than one occHsiott been obliged to eat their beaver skins; this was the case one winter in Peel's River, a post within the Arctic Circle in charge of Mr. U«ll, a chief tnider in the service ; and 1 remember well reading in one of his letters, that all the fresh provision tbey had been able to procure during the winter wan two squirrels and one ci-ow ; during this time they had existed on a quantity of dried nrieat which they foitunately had in store, and they were obliged to lock the gates ol the fort to prewrve the rrmain<(er from the wretched Indians, who were eating each other outside the ualls } the cause of till this misery was the entire failure of the iibhcries, together with great scarcity of wild animHls. Starvation is quite common anioni; the Indians of those distant regions ; and the scraped rucks, divested of their covering of tripe de roche, which lesembles dried sea- weed, have a sad meaning and melancholy appearance to the travellers who journey through the wilds and bolitudes of Rupert's Land"r — Yes; Mr. Ballan- tyne never was in that country ; he dues not know the country. The cases of cannibtilism are very rare indeed. 1 G08. I will read to you a ver]- short passage, and ask you whether it is a true description of Mr. 'I'hnmas Simpson: " No man in the Company's service had such opportunities as he enjoyed of becoming acquainted with their management, and none was better aide to appreciate its effects ;" is that an accurate description of Mr. Thomas Simpson? -No, I think not; he acted as my secretary for a short time, but I do not think his judgment was very sound upon many points. 1(109. If those words come from a report on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, then they are incorrect r — Yes ; I do not conceive that his judgment was sound upon many points. It) 10. I ask you, if those words come from a report made by the Hudson's Bay Company, still, notwithstanding that, they are incorrect? — Yes; his judg- ment is landed a little higher than 1 think it should be. 161 1. Who made that report, do you know? — I really do not recollect. 1612. There was a letter written by sir J. H. Pelly, Bart., to Earl Grey, dated " Hudson's Ray House, 24th April 1847." There is, as an enclosure in Sir John Peily's letter to Lord Grey, a report on the memorial of Mr. A. K. Isbester and others, to the Secretary of State for the Colonies ; that report, I suppose, was a report of the Hudson's Bay Company. In that report is the description which I read to you of Mr. Thoinns Simpson ; in spite of this coming from the Hudson's Bay Company, you say that it is an incorrect description of Mr. Thomas Simpson ? — Mr. Thomas Simpson was a very active, energetic man, but not a man of sound judgment upon many points. 1613. Are you aware of a complaint made by the American Government about the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company? — No, I am not. 1614. You are not aware that the American Government applied to the English Government in consequence of certain complaints made to them, the American Government, of the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No, I do nut recollect any such complaint ; there may have been one. 1615. Are you at all aware whether the numbers of the Indians are diminishing now? — No; I think the Indiana of the thickwood country are increasing in numbers ; the population there, I think, is increasing. 1616. You say that in diti'erent parts of the territory different prices are charged by the Company for the goods they sell to the Indians: — Yes. 1617. At the mouth of tlie Red River what is the per-centage of the tariff added to the cost price of goods? — I cannot say at the Red River, because it 0.25. L 3 depends Sir O Simptva, 1 Maruh iVa?. i!i i I I 8i^ Ml m '^K 't^i ii'i k'm MINUiES OF KVroENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE Sir e. Si'nipuMi. depends entirely upon the \mce given by the Americans and others upon the frontier. I March 1857. )(ii8. Is the mouth of the Red River near the frontier? — The roouth of the Red River is close to tlie frontier. 1619. I would say the mouth of Mackenzie's River r — I cannot tell tlie precise tariff"; I have no copy of the precise tarili'; they pay a hii;her price for their goods than those ne.irer the coast ; the returns do not C(jme to market uutil about from six to seven years after outfits are issued. it)20. Mr. Edward FJIice.] That is to say, that you give less for the furs ? — We give less for the furs. i()2i. You lake more furs, in fact, for an article ? — Yes; our system of dealing Is this: Indiana require certain necessary supplies to enable them to hunt, and these we provide them witli. ■' 1(122. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you know the quantity of heads which you have impurfed per annum ?— ! do not ; they are not an article of trade ; they are given as presents. I (123 You never give so many beads for so many skins r — Never; they are entirely gratuities; beads are never traded, to my knowledge; if they are, it is ^uite contrary to instructions. ifi24. Do you know the amount of marten skins imported last year? — I do hot; I cannot tell from recollection. Awls, gun flints, gun worms, hooks, needles, throad, beads, knives, gartering ribbons, &c., are given as gratuities ; about 20 per rent, of the outfit in those articles are given as gratuities. 16U.5. So that a good knife is not considered an xrticle of commerce at all? — No ; it is given as a giatuity. i62(). And that is the statement which you make of the way in which you deal with the Indians with knives? — That is the usual practice. if)27. So that if a knife were to cost 10*., you would make a present of it ? — We never give 10-shilling knives ; they are too expeusive an article ; we cannot aflx)rd to pay siicli prices. i(i28. Do you ever give 5s. for a knife ?— No, never. 1629. Half-a-crown ? — 1 cannot tell precisely what the cost price of a knife may be, but I should think the cost price of a knife is high at half-a-crown for the Indian trade. 1630. Was not there some a^reement or some bond entered into by the Hudson's Bay Company, that they would send the criminals to be tried in Canada f — There is a concurrent jurisdiction in Canada. lC)^i. Will you answer my question ? — I am not aware of any bond, but very likely there may have been ; I do not recollect. i()32. So that tliough you have been Governor for 37 year-, nf that territory, if such a thing has occuned, it does not now oecnr to your memory ? — I do not recollect : the cases are so very lew. I ()33. In your long experience of that country are you aware of any criminals ever having been sent to be tried in Canada ?— Yes. 1(534. rtow many times? — On one occiision ; there were three men sent for trial tor murder; and I think tliat case was noticed in the former investigation of the ( 'unimittee. ''';55- C'kairm'in.] Supposing an arrangement was made by which any por- tion of the territory now administered by the Hudson's Bay Company, which miuht be supposi d to be nt for the purposes of colonisation, was separated from that administration, such a district of country, for instance, as the Re'l River, and any land in the neighbourhood of the Red River, or of the frontier of Canada, or land on the extreme west coart in the neighbourhood of Vancou- ver's Island, would there be any difficulty in the Hudson's Bay Company con- tinuing to conduct their affairs after that separation had taken place ?- i think not, because I do not believe there would be any settlement for a great length of time ; I do not believe there would be any migration into the country for ages to come. 1636. Supiiose that was lefit to be tested by experience ; suppose any country, such as it could be thought would be available for the purposes of colonisation, was taken from the administration of the Hudstm's Bay Company under a suitable arrangetuent, would it interfere in any way with the management of the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company, or of such territory as was lel't r— I think i 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 8? think not, provided the incoming population were restricted from interfering with the fur trade. i(),S7. Do you mean in the same manner in which the inhabitants of Canada are now restricted from interfering? — No; they are not restricted from inter- fering with the fur trade uf Canada. i(>;jS. Hut with your fur trade? — Yes; provided they were so, I think there would be no decided ohjef your Company, in yotir opinion, particularly favourable to the management of colonists, or of any thickly settled districts ? — I think the territory held by the Company is not favourable for settlement. i()4(). I do not mean the physical nature of tiie territory ; but do you think it advisable, for your own objects, tlmt you should have the administration or management of anything which could be called a thickly peopled settlement ? — No, I do not think it is important that we should. 1 04 1. It is rather d'tlerent from your u-iUal course, is it not? — Yea, I think so. if'42. For instance, do you think it would do you any harm if Vanccuver'i Island was taken from you and made a British lolony 'r — I think not. i()43. Do you think tbit if there was any country on the mainland in that cornel' in the vicinity of Vancouver's Island to which it was thought likely that settlers would be attracted, it would interfere with your affairs as a trading Com- pany, if an establishmeiit of that kind was formed there tmd separated from you ? — 1 tliiiik it would not . So that the Americans do not accumulate furs at all: — In that part of the country they do not. i6( 3. Do they in any part of the country ?- No. 1 am not aware of it ; on the sources of the Missouri a good many furs are collected. 1664. Is there not an American fur companv ? — No, I think not; there was an American fur company ; it was broken up long ago. it)6.v }Ar. Charles Fiizwilliam.] Within the last two months? — No, wiihia the last few years. 1(166. Mr. Addtrtry.'] In reply to a question put by the Chairman, you stated that the Company would not object to any settlement west .tf the Kocky Moun- tains, provided such settlers were restrained from interfering with the rights of the Company as to the fur trade ? — I think so. 1667. Will you describe the nature of the restraint which you «ould suggest? — ^'I hat they should not be allowed to interfere in the fur trade, but confine them- selves to agriculture or other pursuits. i6t)8. Do you mean, then, that the settlers west of the Rocky Mountains should be bound t<» maintain their own settlement in a fur-bearing condition ? — No; tlie country adapted lor settlement is not a fur-bearing country. 1669. Then what would be the nature of the restraint which you tliink the Comjiany would consider necessary ? — That the settlers should not go into the fur-bearmp countries 1670. The restraint would only apply to other portions of tiie district claimed by the Hudson's Bay Company ?— Ves. 1671. Do you consider that the Company v\oulu have a right or interest iu making any restrictions upon the settlement of the country itself west of the Rocky Mountains- — No, I think not. 1 672. The settlement of that part of the country might be effected with no injuiv to the Hudson's l!ay Company, without any restrictions as to the territory itself? — Provided they did not interfere «ith the iiir trade. 1673. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Would the restriction of dealing with the Indians be suHicient for your purpose ?— Yer it wouhl, 1 think. 1674. ^t. Adder ley. ~\ The country to be settled, west of the Rocky Moun- tains, might be settled free from any conditions relative to that country itself? — Except as regards the fur trade. 1675. Chairman.'] How do you manage to prevent the Canadian traders now from introducing spirits into the territories of thL- Hudson's Bay Company, along that great extent of frontier?— They cannot pass through thi; country without our assistance. 167*1. Is that difficulty of communication sufficient to enable you practically to prevent the trade in spirits ? — Yes, decidedly. 1677. 1 suppose there is some smuggling in the districts immediately in the neighbourhood of the settled countries? — I think there is no smuggling in the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, in the district of country over which they claim an exclusive right of trade, except at Red River. 1678. When you say no smuggling, do you mean that there is none of any consequence, or none at all ? — I believe there is none. 1679. Lord Stanley.] You have posts beyond your own territory, have you not, in Canada ? — Yes ; we have establishments all the way down the St. Law- lence. 1680. Chairman.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 89 16S0. Chairman.] Have you gone on in harmony with the Canadians and tlie Canadian Governinent ? — Perfectly so. ifiSi. Mr. Itoebiick.] In that census which you have given in, is there an account otthe numbers of the half-breeds in the Red River Settlement? — Yes ; 8,000 is tlie whole population of Red River ; that is the Indian and half-breed population. KiS-i. Can you give ■ notion of how many of those are half-breeds? — About 4,000, I thinK. 1683. Can you tell ^ Committee whether those half-breeds are improving in their intelligence? — 1 think they are. 1684. Have not the Company established schools there? — Yes, there are schools. 16S5. Do not the half-breeds go to those schools? — Many of them do, especially the half-breeds of European parentage. i()8(i. Since they have gone to those schools have you found the half-breeds as submissive as they were before r— Yes, I think they are fully ; more so. i(i87. So that they do not give you any more trouble than they used to do ? — We iiave little or no trouble with them. 1688. They do not demand free trade in furs ; you never heard of such a tiling !* — 1 hey do not demand it, but they practise it ; many of them do. ifiSi). Have you found the free trade increase since the instruction of the people increased?— No, I do not find that since the encouragement to trade has increased they have been extending their operations in that way. i()00. Do you mean to say that the free-trading has not increased of late years ? — Not very materially ; they have been in the habit of trading, more or less, lor a great many years ; perhaps there may be more engaged in it recently than there were a few years ago. i6i)i. So that the increase of education at the present moment has not at all increased the desire of the people to have communication with Auierica ? — No, I am nut aware that it has ; I am not aware that there is any particular desire to connect themselves with America. I tip-.'. I mean to trade with America? — To trade in what? iGpj. In all commodities?— I believe there is very little trade at present going across the frontier. 16(14. ^^rs yoti at all aware of any increased desire on the part of those people to carry on trade with the Americans ? — No ; I am not aware that there is any increased desire, itio"). So that we may take it as your statement that there is no increased desire on the part of that j)opulation in that respect ? — ^They have more frequent communication with the United States than heretofore, inasmuch as they have larger dealmgs. u'h)6. Mr. Edward FMice.] That is not in furs? — Not in furs: principally in buffalo robes, and a very few furs. iO()7. Mr. Roelmck] What do they give to the Americans ? — They take cattle from Red River ; buttalo robes, and a small quantity of tallow and horses ; I think those are the principal articles. it)()8. Do the Indians of the Red River Settlement wish to trade with the Americans ' — \ think not. i6i)(). I mean the pure Indians? — The pure Indians, I think, principally deal witii us. on their part to conduct trade with the boundary line; they principally deal 1700. You have found no desire not across the their desire to have communication with respecting that? — I think not; there is Americans ? — No with us. 1701. Ikit I want to know about the Americans : have you any proof nothing- to prevent their having it if they have any desire. 170J. Mr. Kdunrd Ellice.] Do not ihey like to sell their furs to the best bidder •— Yes, tliey go to the best market. 1703. Chairman.'] And I suppose they would get spirits wherever they could find iheiu '. — Yes, I think they would. 1 704. Are the fur-beariug animals on the increase or otherwise, in the Hudson's Bay territory, speaking generally ? — 1 think towards the southern frontier they are on the decrease. o.^,";. M 1705. Take Sir G. Simpson, 3 March 1857. P ■'M ■f 1 ; il DO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Ty\KEN BEFORE THE ■1] Hit !;'■ Sir O, Simpson. * March 1 857. 1 705. 'lake the whnle together ? — In the northern part of the country we nurse the country very mucli, and the country has improved and is much richer in fur-bearing animals than it was 20 years ago. I70<":. Taking it altogether, is the export of furs increasing or decreasing ■ — It is larger now than it was at any time within my recollection. 1707. It is the most valual)le fur trade in the world, is 't not: — I think so. 1708. A great deal larger than the Russian fur trader— Yes. 1709. Mr. Cirogaii] You stated that in the form of the lease of land, one of the clauses wa«, that the settler should endeavour to encoura;je the Christian ri'ligion ? — Yes. 1710. What is the meaning of that covenant? — I do not know; I do not recollect the covenant. Perhaps you will draw my attention to it. 1711. You read a passa. 1747. Mr. Groi/an.] What privileges or rights do the^native Indians possess strictly applieable to themselves " — They are perlectly at liberty to do what they please : we never restrain Indians. 0.25. M 3 1748. Is Sir C. Simptm. 2 March 1857. ,«■■ I i 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i'i Sir O. Simpson. 1748. Is there any difference between their position and that of tlie half- breeds ?— None at all. They hunt and fish, and live as they please. They look 3 March 1857. to us for their supplies, and we study their comfort and convenience as much as possible ;■ we assist each other. 1749. Lord Statilei/.] You exercise no authority whatever over the Indian tribes ?— ^None at all. 17.50. If any tribe were pleased now to live as the tribes did live before the country was opened up to Europeans ; that is to say, not usinp^ any article of European manufacture or trade, it would be in their power to do so t — Perfectly so ; we exercise no control over them. 17.51. Mr. Jiell.l Do you mean that, possessing the right of soil over the whole of llupert't' ' "nd, you do not consider that you possess any jurisHiction over the inhabitant , A that soil ? — No, I am not awaie that we do. We exer- cise none, whatever right we possess under our charter, 175:. Then is it the case that you do not consider that the Indians are under your jurisdiction when any crimes are committed by the Indians upon the Whites r — They are under our jurisdiction when crimes are committed upon the Whites, but not when committed upon each other ; we do not meddle with their wars. ' 753- What law do you consider in force in the case of the Indians commit- ting any crime upon the Whites ; do you consider that the clause in your license to trade, by which you are bound to transport criminals to Canada for trial, refers to the Indians, or solely to the Whites ? — ^To the Whites, we conceive. 1 7.54. Mr. Grogan.'} Are the native Indians permitted to barter skins inter se from one tribe to another? — Yes. ^755- There is no restriction at all in that respect ? — None at all. 17.56. Is there any restriction with regard to the half-breeds in that respect? — -None, as regard dealings among themselves. 1757. Lord Jolin Ri(,ssell.] Supposing any person was to come from the United States to trade with them, would you interfere ? — We should oppose it by every meuns in our power, but not by violence. 17.58. By what means would you prevent itr— By giving higher prices, or watching tlie Indians. 1759. But you would not drive away such a person ? — No. 1 760. Mr. Orogan.] Have you ever seized and confiscated the goods of parties who were trading in that way with the Indians? — If it has been done, it has been of very rare occurrence ; I do not recollect the circumstances. 17G1. It is stated in these papers that an instance occurred where the goods of some of the settlers were seized and confiscated on the suspicion that they were intended for the purpose of trade with the Indians ? — It has been of such rare occurrence that I have not the least recollection of it. 1 762. You stated on Thursday that the price of land to a settler was 7 s. d d. an acre r — From .5 s. to 7 s. 6 d. an acre. 1763. That is at the Red River Settlement? — Yes. 1 "04. Is that price ever exacted ? — Very rarely. 176,5. If you practically give the land free, why is it held out to the world that you demand 7 s.G d. .' — We consider ourselves proprietors of the soil. 1766. Has the 7 s. (id. ever been paid ? — It has been paid. 1767. Lord Staiilci/.] You claim the right to impose that price, but you do not impose it in every case : — That is so. I ~66, Mr. Edward EUke.} But inasmuch as it has been the interest of the Company to settle the land as fast as possible, they have withdrawn from taking til*' price, because they thought it for the Company's interest r — Yes. 1769. Mr, Grogan.] What amount raoy the Company ever have received from settlers in that way by the sale of land ? — I think from the beginning of time it does not exceed from 2,000 /. to 3,000 /. 1 770. Within your own government can you say « hat sum has been re- ceived ?— I cannot tell from recollection, but I think under 3,000 /. 5771. In what way was that money applied? — It was the property of the Co;npany. ) 772. It was applied to the general funds of the Company ? — Yes ; part of the time it went to the estate of Lord Selkirk ; Lord Selkirk was then the pro- prietor of the soil. 1773. I asked .SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 93 1773. I asked you, withia the time that you had been Governor, am I to understand that the sum of 3,000/. has been received from settlers for the pur- chase of land ? — Yes. 1774. Since your own government ? — Since my own government. 1775. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Is that since the year 1834? — I think not so much since the year 1834 17/6. Previously to 1834 the Red River Settlement belonged to Lord Selkirk, did it not ?— Ves. 1777. It had been sold a long time previously by the Hudson's Bay Company to his Lordship for the purposes of colonisation ? — Yes. 1778. He re-transferred it to the Company in 1834? — Yes. 177(). And you paid his Lordship for that acquisition r — Yes. 1780. Mr. Groff an.] You stated that the sum of 3,000/. had been paid by settlers for the jiurchase of land : — I think so. 1781. To whom was that money paid? — Partly to Lord Selkirk or the heirs of Lord Selkirk, and partly to the Company. 1 78J. Can you say how much was paid to the Company ? — I cannot from recollection. 1783. Was there anything paid to the Company? — Yes. 1784. 100/.? — I think so; more than that. 178.5. 1,000/. r— Perhaps not 1,000/. ; or possibly it may be 1,000/. 1786. Did that go into the general funds of the Company, or was it applied to any other purpose : — I think it went into the general funds of the Com- pany. 1787. It was not applied in the construction of roads: — No; monies 'vere given from time to time for the construction of roads. 1788. From the funds of the Company ? — No ; from the general funds. There is an import duty of 4 per cent, chargeable upon all goods imported into the settlement of Red River. The Hudson's Bay Company are the principal importers, and they pay the largest jjortion of that duty. 1789. Ain I to understand that the amount of that duty is expended upon roads? — It is expended for public purposes — roads, and bridges, and schools, and in various other ways for public purposes. 1790. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it the fact that the Company pay 4 percent, upon all their imports into the colony for that purpose? — That is the fact. 1791. Mr. Grtigan.] Then did the sum which you spoke of as having been };fiven by the Company to the schools come from this source ? — It is without reference to this sourcf. 1792. Then the money which you have now spoken of derived from the customs of the country, and being given in aid of schools, is additional to the sum you have already mentioned as having been paid by the Company in aid of schools ? — Yes. 1 793. Can you give the Committee any estimate of what the amount of that exjienditure on roads and public improvements would be ? — No, I cannot. Per- haps GOO/, or 700/. a year. 1794. You described the country about the Ked River as being very pro- ductive ? — Yes, upon the banks of the river. 17().> Hut you stilted tlmt your impression was that the land beyond a mile from the river was not so g"od ?— It is not so good. 179O. On what is that opinion based? — Upon experiment ; trial. It has been tried and found not good, and discontinued. 1 797. Mr. Gladstone] I did not ciuito clearly understand you whether the price of 7 a. (if/, per acre or 5,*. per acre still purports to be the rule of the Company ? — That is the rule of the ('ompany. We sell very little land. Our sales of land from the beginning of time, I believe, are only from 2,000/. to 3,000 /. 17Q8. But the settlements are very much more considerable than would be indicated by such a price ?— Decidtuily. 1799. In point of fact, then, a very small portion of land has been sold? — Very small. 1 8(10. lias a long time elapsed since any price was received for land at the Red River r — I think there has been very little money received for land at the Red liiver for several years. o,'25. M3 1801. Have Sir O. ISimpton. t March 1857. .«»' i^ 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE m Hiilii W. iilii^ SirC. Simpum. iSoi. Have several years elapsed since, in any instance, a price was received for land to the best of your remembrance I — If money has been received for lands a March 1857. it is to a very small amount. If a person retiring from the service expresses a desire to go to lied Rivor to settle, we say, "In that case you must become a purchaser of land." And he may purchase his .'iO acres, and pay down 25 per cent, upon the amount. 1802. Supposing an application is made for land, what consideration governs the authorities uf the Company in determining whether to sell or whether to grant ? — The means of the parties generally. 1 803. If you think tliem able to buy then you sell : — Ves. 1804. If you do not think them able to buy then you grant? — They squat ; we never disturb anybody. 1 805. Then you do not make grants of land f — We give them grants when they apply for them, but they rarely apply. 1800. Then, do you encourage squatting? — We cannot prevent it. iRo;. Do you endeavour or desire to prevent it? — No ; if the people cannot aflbrd to pay for land, we cannot interfere with them. 1808. Lord John Jiussell.] How do you prevent disputes between two squat- ters ! — We never have any disputes upon the subject ot lands. 1809. Mr. Gladstone.} Is that owing to the abundance of the land ? — Yes. 1810. Mr. Adderiey.] Are there many squatters? — They are nearly all squatters . 1 8 n . Out of how many ?— The population is 8,000. i8r2. Are those H,000 squatters ? — No; some have paid. 1813. What proportion of the 8,000 do you suppose have paid?— The whole receipts for land, from the beginning of time, are certainly under 3,000 /. 1814. Can you tell us at all, in round numbers, what proportion of the families who have settled at the Red River Settlemenr, have paid for land ? —Nineteen twentieths have not paid. 181/;. liow do you reconcile the statements you have just made as to the mode of disposing of laud with your answer to Question 1217, in which you said that land was granted at sums varying from 5^. to 7^. 6d. an acre, not in fee simple, but under leases of 999 years ? — The parties frequently set themselves down on land without consulting us ; we never disturb them. i8«6. I asked you, in Question 1207, " If I wanted to buy land in the Red River Settlement, upon what terms could I buy it ?" Your answer was, " Five shillings an acre ?" — Yes. 1817. Am I to understand that if I applied for it for nothing I should get it, equally? — If you were to squat, we should not, in all probability, disturb you. 1818. You said that free grants were given to those who applied for them ? — Yes. 1819. Squatters do not apply for free grants, do they : — We point out the situations where they may squat ; we do not give them titles unless they make some arrangement for the payment. 1820. Are we to imderstand that squatters squat under terms of agreement with the Company ? — Yes ; very frequently. i8ai. Mr. Roebuck.] Then why are they called squatters? — A man without means, coming into the country, says, ♦' I should like to settle there, but I have not the means of (laying ;" we say, " There is no "objection to your settUng there." nS2J. Mr. Adderiey.'] Are there settlers in the Red River Settlement who squat without any agreement with the (.'ompany ? — Many. 1823. Am I to understand Ihat a great proportion of what you call squatters have squatted under an agreement with the Company? — No. 1 824. May we understuml distinctly what you mean by the word •' squatter "? — A man who comes and sets himself down upon land without title. 1 8 25. Is it possible that a squatter should settle under distinct terms of under- standing with the Company, even though he does not pay for his land ?— Yes ; very likely a man without means would say, " Where can 1 settle ?" We should point out ascertain district of country which we thought desirable, and the best situation for settlement. 1 826. Are there many squatters in the Red River Settlement who had their location pointed out by the Company, and who paid nothing for their land P — Many. 1827. Is SELECT CO.MMTTTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 95 1827. Is thut the case with the majority of them? — I think the majority of them have settled themselves down where they liked, and we could not pre- vent it. 1828. 'Vithout asking the Company r — Yes. 18,29. i . Bell.] Then you menn that the difference is, that, where they settle wiihtiut paying for the land, they have no agreement '. — They have no agreement. 1 830. And they have no title ; when they apply for land and pay for it, then they have a title? — Yes. 1831. Mr. Adderley.] When the Company assign a territory in tho nature of a free grant, is there anything paid in the way of license duty r — No, nothing. 1832. Do any people settle in the Hudson's Bay territory upon licenses, without a payment per acre r — No, I am not aware that they do. 1S33. Mr. lioebuck.] Is that the form under which lands are granted {handing an indenture to the rritnes.i) ': — Yes, I think this is it. 1 834. Mr. Edward FAlice.] Is that the Company's grant or Lord Selkirk's grant ? — This is the Company's grant. 183.5. What is the date of it r— March, 1844. 1836. Mr. Roebuck.] Is this indenture the title by which a person holds land who buys it r — It is. 1837. Amongst the engagements of the buyer, is there one that he will not part with any portion of the land ? — The conditions are there; I cannot call to mind the precise conditions. 1 838. Then though you have been 37 years governor of that country, you do not know the conditions upon which land is granted ? — I have been very little resident during that time in Ued River; there has been usually an officer in charge of Red River, who is styled Governor of Assiniboia. 1839. Are you aware that this is one of the engagements of the buyer, that he "shall not nor will at any time during the said term," which is 999 years, " underlet or assign, or otherwise alienate, or dispose, or part with, the actual possession of the said laud hereby demised, or any part thereof, for all or any part of the said term, or any interest derived under the same, without the con- sent in writing of the said Governor and Company for the time being first had and obtained '" ? — Yes ; that is a clause in it. 1 840. Were you aware tliat that was in the indenture ? — Yes. 1841. So that when a party buys land of you he cannot sell one particle of that land, or even let it r — Yes ; but we never object to it. 1 842. This is your indenture r —Yes ; that is our indenture. • 843. Does that, in your view, tend to promote the settlement of the country?- 1 do not think it can materially affect the settlement of the country. 1 844. Do you lancy that depriving a man of the power of alieniiting any part of his land, or even underletting it, conduces to the settlement of the country ? — I do not believe that the settlers of the Red River pay much attention to the terms of their title-deeds. 184,5. Do you fancy that preventing a man from underletting, from selling or parting with any portion of his interest in the land, contiuces to the settlement of the country r — No ; I do not think it does. 1 846. Do you think it hinders the settlement ? — I think it does not hinder it in the Red River, because there are no applicants for land. 1847. Mr. Edfvnrd Eftice.] With reference to the question which the Chair- man put to you just now, with regard to the territory being colonised, I think your answer was that you did not consider that the colonisation of any part of the territory wliich the Government might think proper to reserve for that purpose would be prejudical to the fur trade, if the exclusive right was pro- perly protected r — Ves ; I think it would not be prejudicial. 1848. By the exclusive right being protected you mean the trade of the Indians being protected ?— The fur trade with the Indians. 1849. With regard to the cases of starvation, I presume that the means of the Company in supporting the people in the territory very much depend upon the produce of the l)ufFalo hunt and upon tl)e crops raised at Red River r — Yes, the produce of the chase and the products at Red lliver 1 850. Would it be impossible for the Company to umiertake to provide for the general population throu;ihout the country in tiroes of scircity? — Quite impossible. 0.2,5. M 4 1851. Mr. Sir C. Si npiun. a March <8j7. m iff I)fi MINUTRS OF EVIDENTE TAKEN HEFOUE TMR Sir f>, Siniptoti. « March iSa?. ,11 : III i ;i ; 1 a : I'sii III iS,")!. 'Mr. Roehuvk.} Do the buffaloes extend to the Arctic circle* — Tlie priiirie buffalo does not ; he is conrined to the prairies ; the musk ox is to be iound in the Arctic circle. 185J. What proportion of the food of the iidiabitants is supplied by the musk ox r — It is very small : it is ontirt'ly confined to that purt of the country. 1853. [n fact, you may put it out of consideration aitogetin'r f — Yes. iS,';4. Therefore, your answer that the food of the country chiefly depended ujioii buffaloes was not correct? — The foixl of the prairie country is butialo ; the food of the thickwood country is principally tisii. 1 8,1/). Mr. Kditanl El/ice.] Is not pemican almost the staff of life of the ser- vants of the Company in all i)arts .' — For transport. iSM'. A'r. Jiovlmck.] What is pemican ? — Pemican is a compound of buffalo meat and tallow ; it is a portable provision, principally used in travellinc;. 18,57. Have you formed any idea of the quantity of pemican which is manu- faciurcd in that country per annum ? — Pcrhajts from 2,000 to 3,000 cwt. per annum ; some years more ; sometimes less. i8-,8. And you have told us that there are 5r),(K)0 inhalntants r — East of the mountains there are about 55,000 ; of those about 25,000 are Indians living upon buffalo meat principally, and 30,000 live principally upon fish ; that is to say, fish and rabbits. i8,5f). Mr. Edward Ellice."} But the means of existence of the servants of the Company depend upon provisions taken to the different posts from other parts .- — Yes, and the fish they are able to collect ; they live very much upon fish throughout the country. i860. Has that deed which is before the Committee ever, practically speaking, been made use of by the Company to restrain settlement at the Red Uiver r — Never. i86i. Mr. Roebuck.'] What is the use of the deefl, then • — It is so very little used that it is of no value, in fact ; nineteen-twentieths of the people have no title ; they squat and set themselves down. 1862. yupposin? a dozen people were to start from Canada determining to settle in the Red River Settlement, would they be at all impeded by the Com- pany? — I think not 1863. And if instances are biou;;ht forward of great impediments being thrown in the way, you never ha"e heard of them ? — There has never been an instance to my knowledge ; they srjuat and set themselves down wherever they please. 1864. Have the Company ever ejected anybody? — Never to my knowledge. 18(15. Mr. Groi/ati.] If an emigrant, as Mr. Roebuck describes, come from Canada to the Red River Settlement, and be anxious to purchase a partly- improved land which some squatter hnd been \i\mu, would your Company interfere to prevent the transfer of the land ? — No. iStit). VVould it be necessary to ask your permission r —We usually enter all such transfers in a transfer book when the parties apply ; but if they do not choose to apply to us we cannot ^lelp it. 1867. Is there any fee for that entry V — None. 1 Sti8. Then is not the practical effect of such a deed as has been read to pre- vent any person taking such a deed from you ? — 1 think that it is not. 1869. If a man may squat on the land, and hold undisputed ])Ossession of the part that he squats upon from you or from any one else, and if he may transfer that land to another person without obstruction, why should he take a iked from you ? — That other party would not be disposed to pay unless he could have some title. 1 870. Mr. Gladxtotie.] Then the restriction is operative, if so, is it not ; if a purchaser from a Red River settler will not be disposed to pay unless a title is given, and if, in order to make a title, it is necessary, as it plainly must be, to show the consent of the Company, then the clause requiring the consent of tin- Company is an operative clause?— The cases of the purchase of land are so very rare that there is scarcely a case in |)oint. 1871. Lord John RiLsselL] Is that deed ever made use of now, or is it dis- use|ilicationK Imving Ix-cn made by thoHC who Sir O. Simptom. lioUl without (Ih'U ?— No ; applications are not onually nindf for (U-cds j an ap- |)li('ation for a dft-d is a very iinu»tual tiiiiif<. a March 1857. 1874. They an- gutisticd to hohl the land without a deed .' — Yes. 187.';. Mr. 6';y,(/(/«.] I understood you to explain t«) lis that there was n cer- tain annual sum received by the Company as duties of customs, vijs., four per (;ent. r — Paid by the Conipatiy. iS7(i. To whom t — To the treasury of the Red River. 1877. Is the treasury of the Red River part and parcel of the Company? — No. 187s. Is not the government of the Red River Settlement, and of course the treasury, as a part of that government, a part and parcel of the Hudson's Bay establishment ; — No ; it is in the hands of the settlers themselves. 1879. Am I to understand you, then, that the Company paj four per cent., as well as the ]mblic : — '1 hey do. 1880. They paid that amount on all goods imported into the Red River Settlement to the local municipality of the Red River Settlement ?— Yes, decidedly. 1881. Which money is employed in local imi)rovement8 ■ — Yes. 1882. Is there any establishment by the Company or by the Red River Settlement, whereby if a settler wished to send a letter, for instance, he couLd do it ? — Tliere is a postal communication through the United Slates. 1883. How is it to get there? — Ihe United States are close upon the border. 1884. How many miles is it? — About .')0 miles ; there is constant communi- cation with the frontier. 188,5. If therefore a letter written at A^siniboia finds its way to the frontier of the United States, the United States take care of that letter a-d \vill forward it to its destination as far as it goes through their territories ? — Yes. i88t). Mr. Edward Ellice.] 'Ihere is a regular post, is not there? — Yes, twice a month. 1887. Mr. Groffan.] Who maintains that regular mail ?— The United States Government. 1888. Is there any mail or jiost, or despatch of any kind, maintained by the- Hudson's Bay Company in their territories? — ^I'here are several expresses in the course of the season. i88g. Is there any mail or post or despatch maintained by the Hudson's Bay Company for the accommodation of the settlers or the public ? — Yes, there is. 1 8()o. Will you descrilie it ?— By canoe during the season of open water, and I think there are three or four expresses in the interior in the course of the winter. 1891. In the event of a settler wishing to send letters or anything of that sort by those des|)atches, can he do so ? — Decidedly. 1 8o'_>. Is he charged for it .' — There is a very small charge : I forget what. 1893. But he is charged for it ? — There is s(miething, I think. 1804. Mr. Edward Ellici.] Is there a regular post maintained by the settlers between Red Hiver and Pembina?— No, there is no regular jiost ; at least I am not aware that there is. 189,5. 'Sir. Jiocbuc/t.} I have a letter in »"y '■:.:.d which is to the following effect: "My dear Sir,— As by tlu' new regulation regarding the posting of letters, it will be necessjiry that Mr. McLaughlin should send u]) his letters open lor my perusal, a thing which cannot be jigrceable to him, will you have the goodness to tell him thiit in his case I shall consider it quite sufficient his sealing the letters in my jir« scnce without i:ny jieiusal on my part, and for that ])ur])ose I shall call in at your house to-morrow evening. HelieA'c me, &c., li. Lane." '1 hat is dated 'JUth December 1844 ? — It was quite unauthorised. 1 8()(). W'ho was Mr. Lane ? — Mr. Lane was u clerk then in the service of the Conijjany. l^97. What does he mean by the new regulation ; he says, " as by the new regulation regarding the jjosting of letters"? — It was no regulation of the Company. 0.25. N 1898. Do 9« MiNUiEs OF i:viin:NCE taken before the Sir 0. .SiM/UM. i March 1857. m i ' iHil 1 I ,!i ! iij! 1 8i)S. Du you nicnn to any that tlicrc wtut no irgulntion f Then* wna no re^ulatiofi witliiii my rcoolU-c-tioii ; there may liuvc Ihtii a local rt^ulation. 1 81)9. Do you mean to say that you, beiuK Koveriior of that territory, if that was a n'gulatioii, you are iKiioraiit of it r — Yen ; there whh no regulation to that effect that I recolhet. I whh governor of that coiintry, and superintendent of the whole of tlie affairs of that country, but there waH u lu<;al governor, who conducted tlie atfairs of tlie district of Assiidhoia. 11(00. Mr. Edwunl FJlice.] 1 think we have hiul it before in evidence that the government of AttHiniboia eomptiites the ^ettlenii-nt of Red River ; that there is u s«'j)arate governor there, who ri'sidcs there, atid who governs all things within a riidiun of 50 miles: the colony being a Hettlement of itHelf, and there beiag a separate council .' — \ es. ipoi. Mr. HnehuckA Do you know a i)erson of the name of R. I^nef — Ws j he was a <'lerk in the (.'ompanv's service a good many years ago. ijioj. Where was he a clerk r — lie was at Red River. 1903. Do you know his writing; will you look at that {hamliiuj the Letter to the Witness)? — I think it is very Ukely tfiat this may be his writing; I cannot prove his writing. i()04. Did you know a p<'r«on of the name of Andrew M'Dermot ? — Yes. lOo,'}. So that there was a person of that name ?— There i» a person of that name now in the settlement. H) )(). 'Ilie letter there is written by a clerk of the Hudson's Bay Company to a person whom you know to have resided in that part of tlie world r — Yes. 1907. And that letter speaks of a set of new regulations, of which you know nothing?— Of which I am not aware unless my memory be refreshed upon the subject. 1908. Tlic letter speaks of new regulations, of which regulations ynii know nothing r — \er\- likely ; I do not know unless my memory be refreshed ujwn the subject ; 1 was very likely not in the settlement at the time. 1909. 'lliat is not on answer. 1 ask you, do you know anything of those regulations r- No. I do not ; at least I cannot call them to mind. 1910 Mr. CladAtoNc] This letter, purporting to be written by a person who was a clerk of the Com|)any, and resident in the country, and written to another person, with whose imme you are also acquainted as being that of a resident in the country, do you think it is likely that there were such regulations a« are alluded to in the letter r — I think it is very likely that there were such reguhttions, but they were not coutinu'l for any time; they were, very likely, disallowed. i()i I. Apart from this letter, did yon ever hear in the course of your expe- rience of any regulation in forci ivithin tiie Hudson's Bay Company's territories under which it was required, or under which the Company had the power to read the i)rivate letters of individuals ? — Never. I never knew an instance. 191 2. Supposing ihere was snch a regulation as is here mentioned by Mr. Lane, by whom woidd tbat regulation be nmde r -Very likely by the Council or the C/onipany'.s principal representative for the time being at Red River, but it would be disallowed forthwith. 1913. Could such a regulation, that is to say, a regulation to the eH'ect that the letters of residents must be perused by the authorities of the Company, be made by any local officer of tlie Company upon his own rcsjionsibility ? — 1 think not. 1914. Then are you at a loss t' -onceive how such n r.,V'''' '^"^ as this could have been luaile at all?— I am quite at a loss ; !■ , ■.'^i v.. of the regulation. 1915. Could such a regulation be made by the Governor and Council ? — Of Assiniboia it might ; but it is not likely to have been continued , it would not htve b'^en continued. 19) Would the Governor and Council of the colony have been competent to mafc"- 'h a regulation ? — Yes ; but I think it would have been disallowed by tiie C- V. -yduy fr-.'.iiwith. 10.7. i^^r /i'>'. ■'MtA-.J Disallowed where?— At home. 19 (S, How bng would it ^.ake to send from there home ? — A very few months. 1919. Then '(> wiw no atitiii. ry, if that on to timt icn(U-nt of Tiior, who ciu'e that ver ; that overns nil ititelf, and le T — V'''» ; ,' Letter to : i cannot -Yes. un of that nmpany to -Yes. you know I upon t .1' I yoii know shed U|)on ^ of those leraon who to another resident in jns as are were such fery likely, your expe- territories power to istance. led by Mr. Council or River, but effect that iiipiiny, be sibility ? — 1 as this of the uucil? — Of would not competent disallowed . very few yig. Then SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDRciNS RAY rOMPANY. 90 i()l(). Then that is different from your answer to n>e, that it would takf three Sir G Simpton. vcarHr— No; I never nuide sue' .11 answer. i().>i». Mr. aiaditonr.] Do you consider that tiie Governor and Couneil of |{fr would have btn-n lejfally competent to luake such a regulatit)!! if th«'y had tliou^lit fit : - I think not. \\)i\. .Mr. (iroijitn.] I think you fol'* us, that a letter which should find its way to tlie fronti«'r, to l'enil)ina. could U ilesjmtched tlicnce through the United States "r — Vcs. \\Yi2. .\t the exjieitsc and cost of the United States Oovernnicnt ? — Yes. ii).',,- Is tliire any provision made li, fhe GoveriKJi Mnd Councd of Assinl- hoia for the transmission of a letter from Assiniboia itself to the frontier ? — I tliink not. 1924. The distance, you said, was abnuf fiO miles '—About 50 miles. i()'2V Is it once a week, or once a month, or once in'a season . or how often is it tluit the mail in the United States part of (he territory is despatched? — Once a fortnif];ht. lyjt). .And yet there is no provision by the (iovernor and Council of Assi- niboia for transmitting a letter regularly to the frontier at all '. — No ; at least I lun nr •>« .e that there is. "" - In Ked you a general question, whether there was any post or despatch by '.1 1' .s could be sent through the Hudson's Bay territury. maint«ined l)y 111* (io\. rnment, and vou said that there were canoes and boats occaxion- ill> ■ -Yes. I ,,S. Do those expresses, or canoes, start periodically- — They do. i()2i;. When ? — Two or three times in the course of the season of open water, and I think once a month (at least it w^:: so when the ^roops were there) during Ww winter ; not .so frequently now. 1930. VVhat do you call the period of open water ?— From the month ot .May until the month of October. ly.ji. That is four months? — Five months. 1932. Then there are opportunities of sending letters two or thre» times durinjt the fine Hcason ? — Yes. 1933. And (mce a month during the bad season? — 1 am not sure that the mail is continued so frequently as once a month during the winter. 1034. Do yon know how often it is sent; my object is to ascertain the exact information as to what mean-* of communication, sending letters for instance, exist in the Huds-on's Bay territory: — Through the United States regularly. 193.';. I do not ai^k as to the United Sti.tes? — The time occupied from Red River to the Sanlt St. Mar}-, where there is the first regular communication, is so long, that parties will not he disposed to send their letters in that way: for instance, they would send them by the United States. 1936. Would that arise from the uncertainty in tlie means of .«ending tliem ■ — The uncertainty ami the length of time occupied in conveying the letters. 1937. I see in your evidence }ou state that you have travelled from Fort William, at the head of I^ke Superior to Assiniboia. about 40 times r — Yes, I think so. 1938. Of course yoi know that road remarkably well? — Yes, pntty well. 1939. -'^"' thereMtfunlioats which now navigate to Fort William, on the he.id ot the lake, from Canada?- No ; there is no regular steamboat commu- nication. Ste-amboi.is have passed round on pleasure excursions. 1940. Do they ijo periodically? — No. 194;. If it were stated that they went once a week regularly, would it be correct? — It is imt tht case. 1942. Arc til. re •steamboats of any nation that traverse the lake periodically - —On the south-west sitle of the lake, the American side of the lake, there are steambi ats whith pass, 1 think, once or twice a week ; 011 the north-east side of the lake there is no trartic; there is no communication. i()43. With threfer the upper district of country ; for instance, the Canadians prefer the upper part above the junction of the Assiniboine River. 1 975. Notwithstanding the floods r — Notwithstanding the floods, llie Orkney half-caste population prefer the lower end of tlie stream. 1976. The chief part of the settlement is in a district of about 20 miles long, is it not? — About .50 miles in length. 1977. Has it ever been wholly covered by floods: — Yes, I think so, except- ing the higher spots, which form islands in seasons of flood. 1978. Has any attempt ever been made to improve the banks of the river to prevent those floods • — Never. 1 979. Why not ?— Because the means of the country could not by possibility admit of it. 1 980. The banks are not susceptilile of improvement ? — Not at all. 1981. The settlement is on both sides of tlie river, is it not .' — It is. 1 982. lias any attempt ever lieen made to estabHsh a communication between them by means of a briilge or otherwise? —No ; there is a ferry in use. 1983. What is the average width of the Red River: — The average width below the forks is about (me-si\th of a mile perhaps. 1984. What is the width of the Mississippi at St. Paul's? — Not quite so wide, I tliiiik, or about the same width. 1985. You are aware, I sujipose, that at St. Paul's there is a large susjiension I am not aware that tliere is ; there was none when I jiassed there. i((S(i. St. Paul's is a settlement of much more recent date tlian the Red River : — Yes. 1987. And they have now a large bridge ? — There was no bridge when I was at St. Paid's. 1988. \\ hy has no attemjit ever been made in the nature of a communication by bridge at tiie lU'd Uivcr? — The cost would be too large ; there is no traffic and no pojjuhition to justify such an outlay. 1 9S9. Have any of the smaller streams been bridged over by the Com])any ? — Yes, many of the siuaUer streams, especially in the settlement ; they have been bridged out of the funds of the settlement. 1990. Have the C^ompany done anything to make roads in the settlement ? — Ihi^y have contributed their share of the duties of four per cent, upon all imports. 0.25. N 3 1991. And bridge : :?!i '■ '! li: 103 MINUTES OF EVIDENCF. TAKEN BEFORE THE li: iiM'' pf u 'i ,1 i 1 9\t O. Bimptcm. ippi. And with that have they made roads themselvps? — With that the settlers have made ronds. a March 1857. uij)-'. Ahout what number of miles of roads, should yon say, have been made under the authority of tlie Company ? — The Company make no roads. H)p3. Mr. Edirnrd F.llice.\ They pay for their beiria: made- — They eon- tribute their share of the tax. 1994. Mr. Gordon.'^ You mentioned in your evidence on Thursday. "The Company aUow the interest of the (la\ , ! tliink it is fo :r p;'r c nt , to any parties wlio may choose to leave their money in their hands, or they will pay their haliiuces as tliey accrue, from year to year, as ihey may desire." Does that aj)ply only to the servants of the Comjjany. or tloes it extend to any of the settlers in the Red Kiver- — The servants of tiic ('om|)ar>y '99"). Is there anything in the nature of a bank otabiisiicd for the settlers: — There is no bank. 1990. 'Hien what do the settlers do with their money • — ! he settlers have their own agents in England whom they emph)y ; a few of them. I think, leave their money in the hands uf the ( ompany ; they are retired servants. 1997. Mv. KiiiimirJ,] In ijuestiou 1009, put by the Chairman, you were asked, " Do you ever encourage the Indians to resort to agriculture, under any cifcumstances ?" and your 'Mswer was, " Always ; we have encouraged them by every means in our jjower." Will you kindly state to the Committee some of the means which have been used "r— By (;iving them agricultural implements. free of charge, and seed of various kinds ; seed wheat, seed j)otaloes. 109S. M ithont charge for the land? — Without charge for tite land. 199;). That has l)een done in the different Indian settlements? — Ycs; in several parts of the country. :2ooii. There is every facility given? — Every facility. 200 i. With reference to question 1102, with regard to the education and Christian instruction of the Indians, are we to understand tliat the Comjjany have adopted no means for the education ot' the .")5.."»7H Indians from whom they receive their furs, and whose land they claim ; I do not refer to rhe iialf- caste, but to the positively Indian population :— Over 25,000 of that Indian population we have no control ; namely, the Plain tribes. They wander from the Missouri to the banks of the Saskatchewan ; they are a bold, warlike people, over whom we have no control. •-'ooj. That is a part of them ; with respect to those wiio hunt for you, you use no means for their instruction : — There are religious missions in various parts of the country. •2003. \'ou coniri'tnite a very small sum, !;ut tiuit is for them to minister to your own stations and factories, not as missionaries .' — Yes. 2004. You give no specific help for the Indians? — Tiie country is so poor that they cannot form settlements: tiie missions must be immediately in the neighbourhood of thf establisliments. ■_>oii.5. Arc we to understand that the (.'onipauy give no aid specifically for the instruction of tlie Indian chilcb-eu to the missionary scicieties who have voluntarily undertaken it r — We are very anxious to give the Indian children instruction ; but, the luiiians will not give up their children. •iO(»(>. Then you would give assistance to schools and missionaries for that purpose, although you have not done it at present ? — Yi'*. ioi.'y. Have yon tidicn any means of getting books or' ((huia'iion, either in the Roman or syllabic character, for the population ?— 'i he missionary societies have sent otit books from time to time. 2008, Ai their own expense : -At tlnir own expense. 20011. With no assistance from yourselvo for that purpose ? — I am not aware that there has been any. 2010. Can you tell me of any case where you have contributed for scrhool- rooms for the benefit of the Indians? — We ar.' ([uite rea.ly to receive Indian children at oui* own estahlishnieuts when ti'.ey can be obtained. 2i'i 1. I do not see any record of any coniributions out of the fuiuls of the Company for the erection of these schools ? — 'There is n.) iuunediate ouilay con- nected with t'.ic erection of schools at any of our establishments. We have a regular establishment of people who do all tiie work about the establishment; they buibl houses and erect schools, and wliatever else may be necessary. iiOi2. At York, liavi; }()ii i.u tveuing scliool, eondueted by one of the Com- pany's SELECT COMMI-fTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 103 iiinister to paiiy's servants during tlie winter, for the benefit of the Indians and others resident at tlie fort : — Ves. JO I J. Was that formed under the direction of the Company? — Yes. joIj. Is that earricd out at any other station? — I think ut Norway House, and at all the ( stablishments wiiere there are missions. j(ii.'). Do you assert that there are evening schools conducted at the expense of tlie Company - — There is no expense connected with it. At the different establishments where there are missionaries we promote education by every means in our power. 20 1 (i. It would l)c very easy to enforce this at all the stations, would it not? — Not to enforce it, but to encourage it. JO 17. And you woilid do so ? — Yes, we would do so. joi8. Mr. iioehiicl,-.} Is tliere a licence to freight goods granted by the Com- pany ? Supposing tliat I, being a settler at the Ked River Settlement, wanted to freight goods to London, is tlierc not a licence granted by tiie Hudson's Bay ('omi)any to enable me to do so .' — No, I am not aware that there is. We freigijt all goods that eome to us if there is room in our shii)ping. JO 10. 1 will read you a copy of a licence to freight goods. It is signed by a Company's officer: it is signed "Alexander Christie, chief factor of the Honourable Hudson's Bay Company." *' I hereby license , of Red River Settlement, to car; y on the business of a freighter between Red River Settlement aforesaid and York Factory. Provided, however, that this licence shall be null and void for every legal jjurpose from this date if he traffic in anything whatever beyond the limits of the said settlement, excepting in so far as he may do so under any municipal regulation, or if he traffic in furs within Rupert's Land or without, or if he usurp aiiy privilege whatever of the Hudson's Bay Company, or if he become, or continue to be the employer, or the agent, or the partner of any person who may traffic or usurj), or may have tratiieked or usurj)! d as aforesaid, or of any such person's debtor. Given at Fort Garry this 29th day of July 1845, Alexander Christie, Chief Factor of the Honourable Hudson's Bay Comjjany." Are you aware of any such rto('U))ients as this {Ike same beiiiij shown to the Witness) '; — I am not aware of them. I do not think this is Mr. Christie's writing, and I never heard of the regulation joio. I think you are or have been governor of Rupert's Land. In 1845, were you at the Red IJiver Settlement? — It is very likely I was there in 1845; 1 do not exactly recollect. joji. You had a council there, I suppose ? — Yes, in all probability. J022. That council was held on the 10th of June ? — \ery likely. J023. I see that you ))assed certain resoluiions at that time ; have those reso- lutions been allowed or disallowed - — If you will allow me to see the resolutions 1 may have some recollection ot them. I catuiot exactly call them to mind. A\ e pjiss resoluticms for our own operations. J0J4. You do not bear in mind whether any of those resolutions were dis- allowed or not .' — 1 think the Company did disallow some of our resolutions, but I forget exactly what they wire. '' 202.> Will you be kind enough to inform us why, amongst your resolutions, you resolved this, " That all other inii)orts from the United Kingdom for the aforesaid settlement shall. l)efore delivery, pay at York Factory a duty of 20 per cent, on their prime cost, provided, however, that the governor of the settlement be herel)y authorised to exempt from the same all such importers, or any of them, from }ear to year, as can be reasonably beUeved by him to have neither trafficked in furs themselves since the 8tli day of December 1844, nor enabled others to tlo so by illegally or improperly supplyhig them with trading articles of any description." Do you recollect passing any such resolution as that r — I do not recollect such a resolution ; it may have been so. Joj(). In your jjrt sent view of the matter, do you think that that would con- duce to the settlement of the country ? — 1 think it would not. 2027. iherefore, if passed at that time, it would have opposed the settlement of the country ? — No ; I do not think it would have materially affected the settlement of the countrj-. 2028. Not prohibiting the importation of goods, except upon a duty of 20 per cent., and that from the United Kingdom ? — I do not recollect that it was ever enforced. 0.2.5. N 4 2029. Laws Sir O, Simp$n. 3 March 1857. .11 . 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKliN BKl'ORE THE Mi ) '-.I'l : , 'I ■; l{ 1 V. ! , , H i ' f , ( ■ 1 i '■\ i! ' i'^ i i: , ; ii-ll-l ■ : . 1 • : 1 1 t 3 ll ■ ' t iii II; to h 1 t ; ■: ;i . -. ■ { Sir G. Sinipton. 2020. I.aws are made to be enforced? — But I do not think that was. 2o^;{). 'Sh'. Kdu'itril Kllin:'] Is it so now • — Certainly not. a March 1857. •.ioji. Has it ever heen so in your re;;ollection?--Not in my recollection. I ne\er recollect to have heard it. 2(1.5::. If such u rule had existed, would it not have been solely for the protec- tion of the fur trade r — Decidedly. 2033. Mr. Gladstone. \ How can you be very certain that that regulation is not in force now ; if it apjiears to have been in force at one time without your knowledsre, how do you know that ic may not be in force without your know- ledge still :— I do not think it ever was in force. 2034. Mr. Itocbuclx.] \'aw do not deny that it has been in force ? — I do not deny it. I have no recollection of it. It was disallowed" if so. 203,5. Mr. Edmird Ellia.\ But you say that if passed, it has not been en- forced as against the importers r — No. 2036. Lord Stanlei/.] You would have known if any action had been taken upon it : — I should have known as a matter of course. 2037. Mr. Ciladstonc] On the subject of the import duty which is j)aid by the Company, I think vou stated that it was paid to the Treasury of the Red River ? —Yes. ' 2035. Is it expended under the direction of the Governor, or of the Governor and Council ? — The Governor and Council. 2031). To whom do they render an account of the expenditure ? —There is an officer oiled the Head of the Board of Works ; he takes the entire management of the fund, and an account is submitted to the Council at the close of each season. 2040. Who appoints the officer of the Board of Works? — The Council do. 2041 . Istlie money paid to the Council and by them handed to this officer, or what is the course through which it goes ? —The officer draws upon the establish- ment ; we are the bankers ; tlie funds are usually left in the Company's hands ; the proper oHicer draws upon the Company from time to time for such funds as may be recpiired. 2042. Is the import duty paid to the Company or some officer of the Com- pany for account of the Governor and Council of lied River r — For safe keeping, it is paid into the t,omi)ai)y"s hands. 2043. It is ])aid into the Company's hands, but merely by way of deposit ? — ISIerelv bv way of deposit. 2044. Then if I understand rightly, the Company hold it, subject to be drawn upon bv the officer of the Governor and Council of Red River ? — Yes. 204 V Does that officer, by authority of tlie Governor and Council, draw the monev :^— Yes, at i)leasure. 20. (i. And he renders an account of the money and expenditure to the Governor and Council :— Yes. 2047. Then the Hudson's Bay Company hear nothing of the money, and know nothing 01 the mode of its expenditure (—Not further than that they have to pav their ([uota. . ■204^. But after payment they have no further concern with that money at 2041). it is disposed of by the Governor and Council of the Bed River Settlenunt, or under their authority, just as much as it would be if the colony were a free and ojjcn eolonv -—Decidedly. 2i!-,(' >Ii'- Roe/jiiri,-.] Ihe Governor of the Red River Settlement is appointed bv the Hudson !> Bav Cumiiany, is not he r— Yes. ., , , . , ' c)- 1 Mr. (llitd-'iKiiu .] 1 believe the Governor and Counh would justify a large expenditure upon. navigiition I- — None ; there is no trade which would justify an outlay. 20,4. Is there any trade at the present time whi«;h may not be effectually and satisfiietorily carried ou in canoes .'—Between Canada and the interior the trade that is conducted from Canada must be entirely l}y canoe; but the com- munication SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, lo.. munication with England is by boat from York Factory and Moose Factory, the Sir G. Simpson. two depots upon the coast. 20,5.5. 1 was referring to the Ued River, and that part of the country.- — a March 1837. With Canada the communication must be by canoe. With England by boat to the coast. 2056. You have been asked questions with regard to the apjdiances of education and civilization which yon have provided for the Indian tribes. Have voii ever considered yourselves as a Company charged with the education or civilization of those tribes r — No, we do not consider ourselves charged as a Company, but wo contribute nevertheless. 20.57. If 1 understand your former evidence rightly, you have no control over those tribes, except that of being able to exclude other traders from the country ? — None. 2058. Are you well acquainted with the country to the west of the Rocky Mountains"'— Yes; 1 have travelled through that country repeatedly. 20,50. Are you able to form any opinion as to how much of it, or whether any of it, is fit for colonization ; I speak of the nuiinlaiid ; not of Vancouver's Island ! -Very little of it I think is fit for settlement nnd colonization north of 49°, from the rugged character of tlie country ; it is an exceedingly rugged and mountainous country. 2o(io. Do you mean by that, tliat the soil is unfit for culture, or that there are no means of transport to the sea ? — There are patches of soil near tlic rivers in certain localities where agriculture might be carried on upon a small scale ; but generally speaking, the country is exceedingly wild and rugged and mountainous north of 49". 2ot)i. What are the winters there ; are they severe ? — The winters are not so severe as east of tlie Rocky Mountains. 2062. Assuming the soil to be suitable, is it probable that wheat crops would not ripen in that country? — I think they would not; there is too much moisture ; it is exceedingly humid. 2063. ILive any experiments been made in the neighbourhood of the forts there? — At Fort Langley there have been experiments made, and grain has been raised upon a very small scale ; potatoes are very abundant ; and likewise further north. 2064. In the event of colonization being attempted there, is it likely tliat any difficulty would arise as regards the Indians r — The Indians are very warlike and very numerous, and I tliink they might be troublesome to settlers in the first instance, until they were sufficiently numerous to protect themselves. 2065. Tlie Company has had more trouble with them west of the mountains than in the east ? — Much more trouble. They are difHcult of management. 20t)6. I think about two-thirds of the whole Indian population reside west of the mountains? — T think about 80,000; the whole population being about 139,000. 2067. Therefore on account of those tribes, putting other di^'Rculties out of the question, there are only some parts of the country where it would be possible for settlers to establish themselves r — Yes. 2068. They could not do so in small numbers or at outlying posts?— They could not. 2o6p. In the event of any part of that western territory being constituted a colony apart from the Hudson's Bay Company, would it be easy to mark a boundary, so that the establishment of a colony there should not interfere with the exclusive rights of the Company ? — I think there is no room for a colony of any extent north of 49°, upon the west side of the mountains. The character of the country is exceedingly rugged. 2070. In the event of any portion of the territories being set apart for purposes of colonization hs a colony independent of the Company to the west of the Rocky Mountains, would there be any difficulty in so defining the boundary of such a colony as to prevent any disputes or difficulties with regard to the point at which the rights of the Company terminated ?— You mean the British territory I presume north of 49°. 2071. I mean, of course, the British territory? — I think there is no portion of that country north of 49° adapted for settlement. 2072. Mr. Roebuck.] That is not the question; the question is, whether there are any means of marking out the boundaries of the colony, supposing that a colony should be determined upon; supposing it should be determined to make a colony west of the Rocky ^lountains, taking the southern boundary to be 0.2.5." O " .' the 11 io6 MINUTF.S OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE mil m 'i,!' J; ;' ? Sir G. Simpson. a March 1857. tlie boundarj' bt-tween it and the United States and the eastern boundary, the Rocky Nlountains, is there any possibility of finding a northern boundary ? — I do not know of any other means of finding it than determining it by observation. The country is not so marked in its cliaracter as to form any boundary. 2073. Tlieie is no river? — Tiiere is no river. J074. With respect to the climate, you say that you have travelled in that country ; is not the climate of America, on the west of the Rocky Mountains, similar, in point of fact, to that of Europe, in the same latitude ? — I think there is more moisture on the shores of the Pacific than upon ihe eastern side. ■2075. That is not my question ; my question is, whether taking latitude for latitude in Europe, and on the west of the Rocky Mountains in America, the climate in the same latitude is not the same: — I have been sucli a length of time out of Kufiland, that I scarcely recollect what the climate is. jo7ti. I am not talking of Kngland ; I am talking of Europe r — I cannot tell. 2077. We will 8|)eak of the climate of Vancouver's Island ; do you know that ?— Not well. 2078. Is not ir a finu chniate ? — It is a very good climate, I believe. 2oyi}. It will grow pretty nearly anything, will not it? — On the southern part of the island. J080. It will grow wheat r — Yes ; on the southern side of the island. 21181. And on the northern too- — The northern is a rugged, mountainous country, wliere you can grow nothing. 2082. Rut it would not be prohibited by climate ? —There is a great deal of moisture ; there arc torrents of rain. 2083. So there is in Etiglaud '! — I think there is more on the west side of the mountains than in L"^^land. 2084. Lord John Russell.] Is the (juantity of moisture such as to prevent the culture of wheat? — It is such as to prevent the ripening of grain, I think. 2o8j. Ml . Edward Ellue.] But at Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia, in the Oregon, are there very fair crops ? — Yes ; never productive crops ; we used to look upon a return of ten or twelve, as very fair crops for Oregon. 2o8ti. With reference to Fort Laugley, which is near the southern boundary of the British territory, and where there is a fort, I think you said the other day, that there were about KM) scpiare .niles of level ground there r — Yes, I think so. 2087. Could not a colony be planted there ? — It might be. 2088. Is there any thing remarkable in the climate tiiere different from what it is in Vancouver's Island ? — 1 believe there is more moisture. 2089. Nearer the mountains ?— Yes. 2090. Mr. 6'roifa;i.] You are making a comparison between Fort Langley and Vancouvers Island ? — Yes. 2091. You say that there is rather more moisture at Fort Langley? — Yes. 2092. Does the thermometer sliow any difference in the temperature? — The further north we go, the degree of cold is greater. 2093. I am speaking of those two situations .' — Yes ; the one is in 50°, and the other is in 4(J]°. («) 2094. Practically, isthehealdiere very f;reat in summer: — In the Columbia it is. 209,",. In the part called Caledonia, tiiere is the Columbia River; that is on the west side of tiie Rocky Mountains? — V'es. 2096. I am not speaking now of the American territory, but of the British above 49". Is the heat in that jiart of the country very great in summer? — Not very groat. 2097. 1 perceive that in the account of your travel, speaking of Fort Colvile, you speak of its being an exceedingly productive, and well circumstanced place ? — Yes. 2098. And that what you describe as a fine season is a damp season? — Yes. 2099. That is owing to the great heat which prevails below 4!)° ?— The great drought, the great length of time they are without rains, they are weeks and months together without rains. 2100. Docs the same ot)servation apply to the land immediately above 49° ? — Upon the coast there is mort; moisture than inland. 2101. Is the quantity of moisture sufiicient to destroy the ripening of the grain? — Yes, I think so; in some seasons I think it is likely. a 10. But (a) This answer )iad reference to Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia Uiver. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 107 2102. But as a general rule? — As a general rule I think the great moisture would niiit^Tially alli'ct tl-.e crops. JIG,]. Wiiat miiy be the distance of Fort Colvilo SDUth of the 49th degree of latitude, tlie boundary .'—I think Fort Colviji- is about 48 or 49 degrees. 2104. About one dei^^ree southward of the boundary .- — Yes. 210,';. Do you consider that the ditierencc of one degree would make such a dirt'erente in the temperature of the place r — There is more moisture on the coast than inland 2ioti. Fort Colvile is not on the coast ?— No, it is inland. 2107. I want to draw a comj>arison between Fort Colvile and the same land on the Britisli side of the boundary. What circumstances exist to make a dif- ference in the climate and the adaptability for colonization of the two places : — The climate «est of the mountains is warmer, 1 think, than in the same parallel east. 2108. Would not that part of the British dominions north of tlie 49th degree of latitude, but in the same parallel of longitude with Fort Colvile, be equally adapted fur colonization as Fort Colvile itself: — No; tiie climate of the west side is warmer, there is nmch moie heat, but very little level land. 2 101). Supymsing a colony were pbinted on the 49!;h degree of latitude, quiu- close to Fort Colvile, on the Columbia River, what circumstances exist which would prevent thiit colony so planted lieing equally well favoured and well circumstanced as Fort Colvile itself.- — I do not ?ee that it would be materially prevented. I am not aware of any circumstances "hicii should cause it. 2 110. Then would this description in your judgment apply to it, "Cattle thrive well, while the crops are abundant. The wheat, which weip:hs from G3 to Otjlbs. a bushel, yields liO or 30 returns. Maize also flourishes, but does not rijien till the month of September. Potatoes, peas, oats, barley, turnips, melons, and cucumbers, are ])lcntifiil." That is the description which you give of Fort Colvile • — Yes. 2 Ml. And you do not see any circumstances which would prevent a colony on the iiritish territory opposite Fort Colvile being so well favoured? — No; the climate is not so warm. 2112. Therefore it would, in your opinion, hold out equal inducements as regards the ripening of grains and fruits as Fort Colvile itself? — No. 1 think the climate of the Pacific is more favourable 10 cultivation than the same parallel on the east side. 2113. Mr. Edward FMice.] I suppose if a population were found to want a settlement of that kind, and chose to go there, they could raise crops very well for their omu support ? — On either the one side or the other, I think ; on either side of the mountains. 2114. Mr. Grogan.] Have any attempts ever been made to establish a colony, or any settlement at all to the eastward of Fort Garry on the Assini- boine, up Lake Winnipeg, Rainy Lake, or in that district? — No attempt has been made to form a settlement at Rainy Lake. 2 11, 5. Or to the eastward of it ? — To the westward there may have been a few settlers at Manitobah, within 40, 50, or 60 miles of Red River. 2116. In fact, there is not a sufficient population to render those localities, which you have described as so beautiful, an object to settlers ? — That is the fact. 2117. But if it should become an open colony, and settlers should go there, there are no physical circumstances in the country in your judgment to prevent their success ? — No ; I think not. The country is not favourable for settle- ment, I think, about Red River. 2 11 8. Why ?— The crops are very uncertain. 2119. You have nothing to • adduce beyond what you have stated already ? — No. 2120. In the extent of lantl between the Rainy Lake and Fort VVilliara, on the Kamenistiquoia, at the head of Lake Superior, what uuiy be the height to which the land rises ; is it 800, 1,000, or 2,000 feet, or what r — I tiiink about 800 feet above the level of the lake. 2121. Do any serious practical difficulties or impediments exist in making that navigation, which you have traversed with your canoes, a regular course of navigation? — I think there are insuperable ditliculties, unless the " Bank of England were expended " upon the improvement of the country. Near the 0.25. O 2 height Sir G. Simp*oti. 2 March 1857. Hf' ^m loS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE WJMN *if'3 Sir G. Siinpton. height of land there is no water ; tlie rivers are shoal, and the soil is bad. I think the difHculties are w a Mnrili i8-,7. ry great. 2122. To how many miles ot country, in your judgment, would your present remark apply ? — I think aliout 300 miles. 2123. .\s much SIS that? — I think so. J 1 24. You have given the entire distance from Assiniboia to the head of Lake Superior as about 500 miles-— Yes. 2i2,> And you think that in 300 of thosu 500 miles, there would be such difficuhies.' — Yes. m m III' MU% ;r I Mr. fnitiam Kernaghaii, called in; and Examined. fAT.W.Kcrnashr.n. 21 j6. Lord John Russell.] WHERE do you reside ?— At Chicago. 2127. What is your business or occupation ?— I am a General Merchant there. 2128. Have you any statement to make with regard to the Hudson's Bay Company, or their territory, or their trade ? — The Chicago people arc runnin<; steam-boats now towards that part of the country. 2129. Where from, and where (0?— From Chicago to Superior City, Onto- ganan and Marquette ; steamers also ply from Detroit and Collingwood to those cities. 2 1 :iO. Mr. Edward Ellicc] Are you a Jiative of the States ? — I am an Irish- man. 2i;5i. Lord John Riisseli.] Have you any statement to make with regard to that matter? — I should like to see the trade opened u\) tliere in the Hudson's Bay country. 2132. That is to say, you uonld like to see an end put to any exclusive privi- leges ? — Yes, either in land or trade. 2133. Have you found any obstacles practically to exist to the trade which you wish to promote? — There is every opposition thrown by the Company in the way of our traders there. 2134. Of what kind? — Every oi>position. They are not allowed to trade there. This last season 500 waggons started from Pembiuii, or the Red River .Settlement, and sold their loa:ht; the American duty is very great. I am not aware of any duties at Red River. 2153. I thought you spoke of the duties being paid on the goods goinii' into the American territory ? — What 1 mean to say is, that on the goods put at St. Paul into the ."iOO waggons, the sellers of the goods had paid the American duties. 21.54. Then it was the American duties which ma'le it disadvantageous, not anything done by the Hudson's Bay Company ?— That business was done against the wishes of the Hudson's Bay Company. 2I.5T. Did they impose the duties or the Americans? — The Americans. 21.5G. Mr. Gi-offan.] Am I to understand you that this caravan which crossed from Pembina to St. Peter's, or St. Anthony's, purchased goods ?— They sold at St. Anthony the productions of their own country, and they bought at St. Anthony their groceries, wines, woollens, linens, &c. 21.57. Which had been British imports? — Some had been British imports and some American manufactures. 21.58. And on all the British imports the American Government imposed a duty .'—Yes. 2159. If fhey could have gone through the country under bond, the Red River people would have saved that duty ? — Yes. 0.25. O 3 2160. Mr. ..#' no MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE li f-' ■ Mr. W. Krrnaghan. 3 March 11(57. 2l(5o. Mr. Kilward Ktlice.\ \% there an export duty in ilie States upon goods .' — I do not know. JKii. Then linw do yon mean that the Red River people would have saved the (hity r— lliid tho j;oods beiii in bond. This is the first attempt of the Red Kiver people to open 11 free trncU*. 2l(vj. Vou say tiiat the Ited River people are placed at the disiidvimtage of this duty ; but as 1 understand yon the Rritish gonds pay going into St. Paul's? — Ves, nnless they go there in bond. •JitVj. They do not pay coming from St. I'atd's to Red River? — No; but they had j)ai(i at New York, or at (.'hieago, before they went to St. I'uul, the legular Anicriean duties. •21(14. Lord John Jtits.ifil.] Vou mean, that if they were landed at Fond du Lae. or at the head of Lake Su|>erior, tliey «ould go in bond, and not |)ay the American duties? — If l.mded at Superior City, where there is an American custom-house, they would iro in l>ond through our Ihitish territory without paying duties. 21(1,5. Mr. Kdivtiid KlUcf.] If there were a road to Red River? — Yes; and that will be done by Chicago and other people this season. 2166. If ihey could go in l)ond from Superior, and nass througii |)art nf the territory and so escape the duty, why should noi they l»e in bond at New Vork ' — \u\i can pay duty at Chicago, Detrnit, New York, or at any place where there is a custoni-Iiouse of the United States, or you can bond goods at all ports of entry. 21(17. You said that goods could be carried to Red Uiver, goin^ througii part of the American territory, giving bond ? — 'Yes. 2108. Whv could not tliev go by New York in the same way, givins bond? — They could. " 2i()y. Tlierefore the Red River settler would not lie ))iejudic(d by (Ik duty payable in the American territory- — He would not be if they went in bond, 21711. Mr. C/itiilis /■'itzifilliiim.] With leferenee to the 500 waggons yoa have mentioneil, you mean that a person bought goods in the American territory because he could get them cheaper there than from the stores of the Hudson's Bay (J(uiipany at Red River ? — Yes ; they have undersold. JoiHs, 5<> die Mart Hi 1857 Ml MEMBERS PRESENT. u '■If m J\ l\i I \'. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bell. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Ldwurd Ellice. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Laboucherc. Mr. Lowe, i^ir John Pnkington. Mr. Roebuck. Lord .Tohn Russell. Viscount Sandon. Lord Stanley. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCIIERE, in the Chair. Mr. William Kcruaghan, called in ; and further Examined. 'iXt.W.Kcnm'rhan. -'T'- Mr. Groguti.] Y'OU have been for some time settled at Chicago, have f, you not ? — Yes. 5 Marcii 1857. 2172. Are yon connected with mercantile pursuits there? — Yes. 2 173. Individually, or as a partner in associated companies ? — Individually. 2174. Has tlie course of your commercial business made you aequainted with Lake 8ni>eiior, and its capabilities for transit and commerce- — Ves; fricnils of mine there have a line of steamers that run from (Chicago to three ports on Lake Superior. 217;-,. What is the most northern port, on Lake Superior, that they go to? — They go to Ontoganan and Marquette; Onlagon is the copper, Marquette, the iron disti ict ; and Superior City ; they go to the west. 2176. Do SELECT COMMHTEE ON TlIK HUDSON'S IJAY COM f'ANY n 217(1. Do they \io lii<>licr up tliiin Lake Superior ; do tliey go to Fo-'t ^^ il' in tlic Knijlisli tei ritory '. - No. iiyy. Tlicy do not extend their courHe thi-a heyond the American buutidar^ ' — No; there are no settlements on the other side. .•178. Do you know whether there arc English steamers which travcrit He lakes to Fort Williiim ? - 1 do not think any regular line runs ; a line iti junction with the Toronto and Collingwood railroad runs to Lake Superior, but the steamers helong to an -American company. 2i~i). Do tliey go to Fort William, the English settlement? — I do not think. they d.< ; tht^y i;<> to the American towns only. J I So. ('an you state what is the population ol' the town of Superior? — Superior City was founded a year and a half ago, and the population at the end of tliifi year will exceed 10,(100 people. 2uSi. Are there any projected railways there? — The Pond du Lac railway runs 120 miles from Chicago at present, and if. i.s to go to Superior City ; it is tiiiislied 120 miles from Chicago. It is to go to iVIanjuette, to Ontoganan, and to Superior City ; three hranches. 2182. Do you know of any projected connections or eommiiiiications, between Fond du l.ac, and any of the British Scjttlements across the line ; lied River, or the lakes there? — CJeneral Cass brought a Hill the other day into the Michigan Legislature to render navigable all the rivers, as far as the American territory went, lieiwcen Lake Winnipeg and Lake Superior, for steamboats and ships. J 1 83. Mr. Edward KUice,] T^ake Winni[ieg is in Mritish territory? — As far as the American territory goes towards Lake Winnipeg. 2184. ^Ir. Aihhrlvij.'] In the direction of Liike Winnipeg? — Yes. ■J 18,-,. Mr. Grngdii.'] Do you know what is the length of that projected canal ? — 1 do not know. Ji8ti. Or the expense? — I do not know. 21 S7. Has there been any action on that petition in the Legislature? — I do not know. I only saw it in the Chica.;o paper. 2188. Was Chicago your place of residence ? — Yes. 2i8(). What is the age of that city ?-- It is about LO or 20 years of age. ^Kju. What maybe the population of it? — lu December it was 110,000. 1 suppose this month it is about 114,000. It increases 1,800 a month. 2iyi. Was It not fr^'ui Chica'jo that the vessel was freighted which came the other day to Liverpool with corn ?— Yes. She came liirect. 2192. Have you a personal knowiedue of the Vancouver country on the west side by the Pacific ? — I have never been as fav north as Vancouver's Island. I h.ive been tradiniz; on the Mcst coast of .America for three years. I have been as far north as San Francisco. 2iy;]. Mr. Edward Ellice.] AA'hat is popularly called California ? — Yes, 2194. Mr. Groijai}S\ Have you any knowledge of that district from reports ? — 1 met several gentlemen who went to V ancouver's Island to try to trade there and they could ncl; trade ; they were refused. 219/;. They went to A'aneouver's Island for the purposes of trader — Yes; they tried to commence trade there, and they could not. 2196. AVhat obstruction was there in tlieir way? — The Company did not like any people to interfere with them there ; that was the reply of those gentlemen to me. 2197. Mr. Edward EllicA\] Where was that? — At \'ancouver's Island. 2198. I thought yon said you had only been at San Francisco? — Yes ; I only visited San Francisco. 2199. How do you know that fact ? — CJentlemen went to trade there from San Francisco. I found them on their return at. San Francisco. 2200. But did they go to trade there ?— Certainly ; they brought up cargoes there. 2201. What sort of cargoes? — I suppose general cargo. 2202. Was it spirits r — I suppose everything. 2203. Who were they r— I do not recollect their names now, but I recollect perfectly the parties. 2204. Mr. Grogan.] Have you reason to believe that the obstructions to trade to which these gentlemen referred, arose from their desire to trade in furs ? — No. Ml ^.Umtntku" It 7. ir ' v),; O4 205. AVas '!#"! II ;l !S m 1 1 1 • i 1,' n' i i i' s ! i! 1 I •) i; 1 1: MINITKS OF KVIDKNCi: TAKKN UKFOHK THE Mi.tf.Kismagian. 2J0.',. Wan it gi'iifial tiiuli' that they vcn- uiixious tu tarry on f — Tliry did not want to trade in lurs* ; tln'v wanted general trade. 5 Maroli i8v JJo(). Did those parties say tliat tliey were proliiliiteij, or tlint hiicIi obstrur- tions were thrown in then- way hy the (iovernnicnl ot the iHJand, tliat they wire unable to earry on IniHinesg ^— \e8 ; tiiey were willing to trade there, but would not go back ai;ain. 3207. Mr. Kdirnrd /•Jlllcc] Was the obatruetion by means of underselling them ? I do not know what the ohntruetion was, but they were willing to trade there, and wouhl not ;;{) hack a;;ain until the Hudson's May Company would be ilonc away with. JJ08. Mr. 6'm/«M. j Did those gentlemen inlbrm you whether their inability to trade arose from any want of the prodiutions of the island, which eould be excImuKed tor their imports ?- -No. 'I'lie finest tunber in the world grows on that eoast and in Vaneouver's Islaiul, and the best market for timber is iSaii Francisco. At that time there was a duty of '20 per cent, on timber imi)orte(l into the States, which is now done av\ ay with under the Reeiproeity Aet. 22(u). M'as there any duty on the export of tindier from Vancouver's Island - -\u; bi.t there was a duty then on the imporis into the I'nited Slates, wbicli is done away with now. 2210. Mr. Kduaril Ellicc] What description of timber is it? — All kinds of pine; Hr. Captain Grant shipped one caruo from Vancouver's Island to a friend of mine before I was in San Francisco. a.'ii. Mr. Gioyiin.] Did tim.se gentli'men mention to you anything about coal, or the mineral ])roduclions of the island .' — Those gentlemen did not ; but I was on board the United States steam frigate " .Massachusetts." 2212. In what year was this? — January ant! I'ebruary 18;')! ; she coaled herself ai Vancouver's Island with the native coal of the island. 22 1 J. Did the officers give you any account of what it cost then), or the time it took to coal her?- -The officers told me that they went very close to where the coal is, on the strand, and that the Indians cpiarriei' the coal, and that the men of the shi[i shipped the coal in boats. 2214. Mr. Edu-ard FAlicc.^ How do you know all this? — The officers of the United .States frigate " Massacliusetts " told me. I give the time, and the place, and the officer who told me. 2215. Mr. GroganJ] Is there any other part of the North American territory or coasts that you are personally acquainted with ? — I have been in Labrador. 2216. For what length of time were you in Labrador ?— Not very long. • 2217. Mr. Hell.] .'\re you acipiainted with the mining operations on the south side of Lake Superior? — No. 1 know some of the companies, but I have no interest in them myself. 2218. Are you acquainted with any facts as to the ])roducts ? — 1 know about the quantity of the products. 2219. What quantity of copper is there?— There have been .3,000 tons of copper shi|tped last year from the mines. 2220. How many mines are there? — Near Ontoganan, I suppose there arc about half-a dozen public comjianies mining. 2221. How long is it since they commenced operations? — A good many years ; but since the ship canal was opened from Lake Superior to the other lakes a great many more companies have started. There are iron companies at Marquette. 2-222. I sec that Lake Winnipeg is njcntioned in the passage wliicii you read the other dav from the newspaper r — Yes. 2223. On the map there is a small Lake Winnipeg between the Uainy Lake and the Mississip])i Kiver ; do you know whether that is meant? — I do not know which. •J 2 24. Mr. Grotjtm.'] In that part of Lake Superior, where the mineral dis- trict is located, on the American side, are there any limitations imposed by the State of Michigan with regard to emigrants who desire to explore the minerals ? — None whatever. 2225. Every facility is given? — A man may squat where he likes. 222(3. And with regard to raising the minerals, is he at liberty to do so ? — If you buy the land, the minerals are yours afterwards. 2227. Is it within your knowledge whether the same facilities for emigrantJ4 exist in the British territories as on the American side? — There are no iacilitics on SFXKC T COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY CUMPANV. 113 II the Hritish »i(l«> north of 19 (l^>^rpeB ; if there vrvrv, the* country would be Vlr.lV.Kernagkan. UN thickly in'opled iis it m south. J2a8, Mr. Kchvard Ellicc] How do you know that : whnt an- your nu'nns of 5 Mt-ch 1857. int'ortnittion "r — Tlio talk of tlu' nioplf ; thfre aro likely to he di-tturbiuict's in thftt country tlic miuiu' iih in Kun/us if tlu; country U not ninde free \nidcr Kiinznti. ■liH). That w aUo th;- tidk of the pt'oplc ' Yes. 3330. Mr. /ir-//.] I")o Mill know tiuy individuals who would go into that country to settle if they were not prevented by the exclusive system of the Hudson's Hay ( oinpany - -I know a j^reat many ))eople in Chicago who talk of settling iit the lied Uiver, provided it was under Canadian rule. •jj;}i. Americans? Americans. 22\i. Mr. Gro^iiu.] Have you at Chicago ever had any commercial dealingn with, or conu' across ;iny of the parties who come from the Red Uiver and that district with their goods —I myself have not had. •j.'33. Mut do you, ol your own knowh-d^e, know whether any of the settlers of the Iletl River seek a market for their goods in the American territory ? ~ I know that last season 500 waggons left Pembina with their pork, their beef, their lard, their wheat, and all their agricultural produce, and sold it at St. Paul's or St. Peter's, and brought back the goods winch they required. •J234. That is the cir(!umstanc:e a hich you mentioned to us on the last day ? -Yes. 2J J,")- Mr- Edward Etlice.'] They did so, as far as you know, without any obstruction on the part of the Hudsim's Bay C'ompany ? — 'i'he Hudson's Bay Company were not powerful enough to stop them. i23ti. Do you know whether they tried to stop thetn r — Tliat is the talk of the country. 2237. Mr. Kinnaird.] The talk of the country is n very general sort of term ; can you give us any fact showing the views of the Comjjany r — No, I can give you no fact ; but 1 think the best proof is that north of 49 degrees there is no settlement : south of 49 degrees, in Minesota, there are now 180,000 settlers. That district had a population four years ogo of 6,000 people ; it has now 180,000. Red River had as large a population 20 yeiirs ago as it has now ; I think that is a fact which is proof enough. 2238. Do you say that the land round Red River in that whole district is equally well adapted for settlement as the Minesota district? — So it has been stated to me. 2239. You do not know it ? — 1 do not know it personally. 2240. Mr. Gregson.] Vou have never been there r — Never. The chief settlers in Minesota are Norwegians and Swedes, and those people would as foon be under Canadian rule as under American, and they would cross the border if allowed. 2241. Mr. Kiiinaird.'\ They would cross the border if encouragement was given ? — Yes. 2242. Mr. Bdl.'] How near to the border bnve they settled ? —Very close up. 2243. St. Paul's is 200 to 250 miles from the border ? — Every j'ear they are closing further and further. 2244. Mr. Addcrle^ J] Do you know the country of Minesota ? — No, I have not been further north than Dubuque, in Iowa. 2245. Mr. Gordon.^ How do you know that the settlemints are closing up to the British boundary ? — I know tliat those people would as soon be under / Canadian vule as under American. 224t). That is not my question. Y^ou said that you knew that the American ettlers were settling up close to the British l)ound;iry ; how do you know that ? — From common report. There was a lecture delivered in Chicago ; 1 will enclose it to the Chairman ; it may give some information. ti The Honourable Cliarks William Wcntworlh Fitzwilliain, a Member of the Committee ; Examined. 2247. Chairman.] I believe you have recently passed some time in British Hon. C. W. IV. North America? — It is three years since 1 came liaok from America. In the Fttzmlliam, m.p. winter of 1852-3 i was in Oregon and \'ancouver's Island. 0.25. P 2248. How «Mi 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENT K TAKEN BEFORE THE t|ij,.'i "A 1 '- 'J ' ,1 ■i i I #::;n m ]fi > Ji! li 1 H ■:!i il vn Hon. C. W. IF. liiztoillinm, m.f. 5 March 1857. 2248. How long did you remain in Vancouver's Island? — I was there two months, the months of March and April. Ji49. Wliat opinion did you form of the soil and climate of that island, and of its capahilities for heoominfj a jjla^e of settlement for Europeans ? — The climate appeared to me particularly adapted for settlement hy Englishmen. It seemed to resemble very much the climate of Ena;land, though j)erhaps in winter not so cold as it is here ; and in summer, from a letter which I have just received, it must be considerably hotter. The soil is generally productive, although in places rocky ; the country is divided into wood and prairie country ; the prairies are parklike ; extensive grounds, stretc^hing into the wood. 22.50. Did you go much about the island? — I was up as far as Nanimo, where there is n coul mine, about 80 miles to the north of Fort Vicitoria, on the east side of the island ; and I was about ten miles on the coast to the west. 22.51. I^itl you hear much about the coal mines there, so as to form any opinion as to their probaI)le productiveness ? — When 1 was there they xcere working a six feet seam of coal, at a depth of about 40 feet ; it was close on the shore ; within 20 yards of the shore. 22.52. It is c:i the eastern shore of Vancouver's Island, I believe? — Yes. 22.53. 's there not an easy communication, by means of a valley that almost cuts the island in two, from the place where tlie coal mines are to a good harbour on the western side of Vancouver's Island ? — I do not believe that that country has ever been explored ; but I should imagine there was from Nanimo, across to Nittinat Sound. 22.54. Sir John Pahington.'] Which part did you say had not been exjjlored ? — Hardly any of the interior of the island has been explored. 225,5. I understood you to speak of the west coast not having been explored ? — On the west coast, I believe, it has not been explored ; at least it had not been then. 2256. C/iairnitiu.] Was the timber fine in the part of tiie country that you saw ? — The fir timber was magnificent. 2257. The harbours are excellent, are they not? — Yes; the Esquimault harbour is the finest harbour I ever saw. 2258. Mr. Grogan.] Is that on the east side or the west ? — All tlie country I am now speaking of is within the Straits of Fuco. 22,50. Chairman.] What opinion have you of that country with regard to its resources, as to fisheries ? — .\obody who has not seen the enormous quantity of fish can possibly credit the value and extent of the fisheries. I do not know the number of barrels, but many thousand barrels of salt salmon are sent annually from Victoria to the Hudson's Bay Company's depot at the Sandwich Islands. 2260. Do the neighbouring seas abound with other fish, besides salmon ?— Herrings are very numerous indeed. To give some idea of how numerous they are, the method of catching herrings is, that two Indians go in a canoe, one paddling in the stern, and the other standing in the bow. The Indian in the bow has a lath of wood about eight or nine feet long, studded with nails. He scoops down into the water and impales the fish on those nails. In two or three hours they get a fair load in the canoe. 2261. In what condition did you find the settlement which is now there, as far as you could judge ? — It was in a very primitive state. There were no roads except those made immediately round the fort, and one from the head of Esquimault Harbour to Captain Langford's house. Captain Langford is the bailiff, I believe, for the Puget Sound Farming Company. 22()2. Did much advance seem to have taken place in colonising or settling the country ? — Comparatively speaking, very little. On the other side of Puget Sound, on the mainland in Oregon, where I believe it had only bten settled two or three years before the island was granted to the Company, there were farms of considerable extent. 22(53. Are you speaking of the American country? — Yes; from what is now Columbia City, or Fort Vancouver, all the way across to Olympia, at tlie head of Puget Sound. Of course the farms were not continuous ; in a country like that you do not find farms, as we do in England, one touching the other. 22()^. bid you travel through that country on tlie American side from Fort Vancouver SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 115 Vancouver to Olympia r — I travelled I»y canoe from Fort Vancouver to the Cowlets, and then across from there to Olymjjia and to Nisqually. 226,'). There are a good many Indians, I believe, in V^ancouver's Island? — On tlie coast of the island; there are none in the interior; they inhabit the coast entirely ; they are fishing Indians, and live on fish and potatoes. 2266. Do they live in no degree upon hunting? — I believe not; they have very few offensive weapons ; no bows or arrows, and I believe, generally speak- ing, no guns. 2267. They are not a wariike race then at all ?— They are, to a certain extent, warlike ; they make war in canoes, but I think they generally fight hand to hand, und not with missiles. 2261^. Mr. Edward Kllice^ Do you know the Cowichan valley? — The Cowichan valley is about 40 miles from Fort Victoria, on the east coast; the Cowichan Bay is a deep bay with, at the extreme end of the bay, low land, and on the north side are high mountains ; it must be a very productive valley indeed, from thf great quantities of potatoes which I saw traded there by the Com]tany and by other trades when I was there. 22(9. You were not in the valley? — No; when I was there it was almost dangerous to land there ; it was just after the execution of two Indians for murder, 2270. Chairman.] Do you know what was the number of the European community settled in Vancouver's Island when you were there.- — I do not know exactly, but I should think that the numbirs of Kuropeans and half- breeds, considering them all as white men, were about 300. '.^271. Did you hear any causes assigned for the number of settlers there having increased so little ? — I think one principal cause is the distance at which it is from the mother country. 2272. Did you hear the attractions of California, as a gold-producing country, assigned at all as a reason for their not having increased more ? — I think all those who got up as f.r north as Vancouver's Island would not turn south and go to San P"rancit>co, but they would he more likely to go over to the main land, which they could do very easily in canoes, where they would get as much tmi)loynient as they could want at very remunerative wages. 227*3. Would not settlers who are in doubt where to go, who might have been induced to go to Vancouver's Island, have gone to California on account of the fiold ? — 1 do not think that a sufficient number crosses the equator in that direction for me to form any opinion upon that subject. 2274. Did you travel about any other part of North America? — I was all through the States on the Missouri river, as far as Port Pierre. I crossed the Rocks Mountains twice, and was in California, and also in New Mexico. 227.). You were ntit in the territory miiuaged by the Hudson's Bay Com- pany ?— No ; not north of the Boundary Line. 227(').* Mr. Kinnaird.] You stated that the interior of Vancouver's Island had never been explored at all ; did you ascertain whether there was any systematic attempt to arrive at a knowledge of the nature of the country by the Govern- ment there ? — I do not think that there was any systematic attempt. 2277. Do you not consider it very desirable thr.t an island of that importance should be, in a certain measure, survej ed : — Certaiidy 1 do ; for I think it is the most valuable possession in the Pacific. If you take the map of the Pacific you will see that the only safe harbours in the Paeific exist in Vancouver's Island, with 1 erliaps the exception of Aeapulco and San Francisco. The entrance to the hailiour in the Columbia River is excessively dangerous, and ships are fre- qiicntl} detained there c 22S2. There Hon.C. If. If. Fitxviilliam, m. r. 5 March 1857. :f#. ii6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. C. ly. W. Fitzwiliiam, m. p, M wi 11 '• §Mk March 1857. 2282. There was a surveyor to the Company then ? — Yes. 2i83. Mr. Kiniiaird.] Yon stJited that tliere was a considerable difficulty in landing at a certain point, owing to the excitement among the Indians ? — That was in Cowichan Bay. 2284. Which is part of Vancouver's Island r — Yes. 2285. What were the circumstances which rendered your landing dangerous r — A short time before I arrived there, a Cowichan and a Nanimo Indian had killed either one or two shepherds. 2286. Europeans? — Yes; I believe they were Europeans. Mr. Douglas, aided by Captain Kuper, of the " Thetis," took these men, and they were tried and hung for the murder; they were hung at Nanimo. 2.>87. That created great excitement among the other Indians?— Yes. 2288. And it was considered not safe at that time to land ?— I certainly did not think it safe myself, because, if I had landed, I should have had to land alone ; and as I could not speak Cowichan, and those Indians did not under- stand signs, I did not wish to risk myself there. 2289. Have any attempts been made, as far as you know, for the civilization or instruction of these natives ? — 1 think none. 2290. Have you heard of any missionary being on the island at all? — Mr. Stains, the chaplain to the Company, was then on the island, and there was a Roman Catholic bishop. 2291. You are not aware that any means were being used, or that any schools were in existence ; there was no settlement of Indians there ? — The Indians there live in permanent villages ; they are not a migratory tribe like those on the main land, but they live in villages on the shore. 2292. You would, therefore, consider thcit it would be easier to provide for their instruction than it would be in the case of the wandering Indians ? — I think so. 2293. Chairman.] Are they employed on the coal mines at all? — No. 2294. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Vancouver's Island is about as large as England, is it not ? — I should think it is as long as England proper, but not so wide. 2295. Sir Join Pakiiigton.] Is Victoria the only European settlement there ? — Yes. the only town. 2296. Do the 300 English and half-breeds, of whom you spoke, reside at Victoria? — No, not- all; some of them reside on farms in the neighbourhood. 2297. Am I right in presuming that those farms are in the neighbourhood of Victoria? — All within 12 miles of it. 22y8. Substantially, there is only one Enghsh settlement in Vancouver's Island?— Exactly so. 2299. Is that English settlement of Victoria situated upon the very fine harbour of which you have spoken?— No, not exactly on it ; it is situated on a small harbour which runs in a little to the east of Esquimault ; going by land it is within a mile and a half of the harbour. 2300. To what extent did you yourself obtain any personal knowledge of Vancouver's Island? — 1 was at the coal mines at Nanimo. 2301 . How far are they from* Victoria r — They are about 80 miles, on the east coast. 2302. I apprehend that those coal mines practically constitute a settlement, do they not ? — Yes. I forgot tiie settlement at the coal mines. 2303. What is the number of Europeans who are settled a»- the coal mines ? — I do not believe there were more than 10 when i was there. 2304. What was the aggregate population there? — I do not believe there were more than 10 persons altogether at the co.al mines. 2305. Do you mean that the coiil mines are worked by 10 persons ? — There were only four men then working in the mine. 2306. Without the assistance of any Indians or half-breed ? — Yes, except one or two just to wind up the coal. 23117. How far from the coast is the coal mine at Nanimo? — Twenty yards. 2308. Then the coals are all conveyed by sea, of course ? — Yes ; a .')00 ton ship can come within 10 yards of the shore ; within 40 yards of the mouth of the pit. 2309. On which coast is Nanimo ? — On the east coast. 2310. Within the straits?— Yes; all the country I am speaking of is within the Straitt^ of Fuco. 23 11. Arc SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 117 23H. Are those straits throughout easy of navis^ation; is it a pretty bold, safe coast; say from Victoria to iVIaniiuo, is it a safe navigation? — It is rather an intricate navigation, for it is tiirough a chister of islands tlie way I went, by canoe and steam -boat. 2J12. You have spoken of a 500 ton ship ; is the water deep? — Yes. 23 1 3. Is there any difficulty in navigating a 500 ton ship from Victoria to Nanimo ? — Not with propelling power. 2314. Do you know the total number of Indians in Vancouver's Island? —No. 2315. I understood you to state that they were peaceable, and for the most part unarmed ? — I should say they are for the most part unarmed. 1 do not lielieve in the peaceableness of any Indian. 2310. Will you explain that answer?—! believe thai any Indian will take any and every advantage he possibly can. 2317. What I mean rather is, not whether as an uncivilised man he would take advantage, but whether the Indians of Vancouver's island have evinced any disposition to be aggressive towards the European settlers, or whether they have lived peaceably with the European settlers ? — I think, generally speaking, they have lived peaceably with tliem, as far a^ I can understand. 23 1 8. They are not what you would comparatively speak of as a savage tribe of Indians r — No ; they are not to be compared with the Blackfeet. 2319. Mr, Uelt.] From what you say, the (oal mines are not at all in active operation ? — No ; they were not when I was there. 2320. Mr. Edward EUice.~\ Of what time do you speak with reference to that coal?— 1853. 2321. Are you aware that very shortly after the coal was discovered there was an intention shown to begin to work it ? — Yes. 2322. Are you not aware tliat there are now GO or 70 miners employed ? — I am not sure; but when I was there I know that miners were expected out, in the " Otter," I think. 2323. Mr. Gordon ~\ What class of persons were the settlers of whom you iiave been talking ; were they persons who had come from Kiigliind, or persons who had settled there from America ; had any come from the opposite coast ? — ] think very few ; some American ; had come for job work. '-'324. Where had the white population, such as it was, come from? — From England, generally speaking. 232.5. What inducements had brought those Knglish settlers out there? — Several had come out as servants of the Puget Sound Farming Company, and were acting as bailiffs and servanij on that farm ; they had oeen brought out in the Company's sliips. ■iyiCi. Vou do not think, then, that any of the settlers there had come out attracted by the advantages of the island itself ; they had come out, as it were, Jiecidentally in some capacity, and then they remained there I — I think only •me iiad come out to settle. 2327. Was any encouragement given to settlers to come ; was there any effort made to induce other settlers to come ? — I think not. 2328. Mr. Edward Kllicc] Vou do not know that to be the fact?— No. 2329. Mr. Ciordun.] Do you happen to know at what price land was pro- cured tlierc r— Land was sold at 1 /. an acre, according to the assignment of the island to the Company by the Clovernment. '1 he Company received 10 per cent, of that, and the remaining 90 per cent, was to be expended in the improve- ment of the island. ^330. Do you know when that coal mine of which you have spoken was first discovered r — At the end of 1852, I think. 2331. Have you often travelled with American fur traders r — Yes. 2332. Have you had any opportunity of observing whether they, in their traffic with the Indians, make great use of spirituous liquors as a means of barter?— I think, generally speaking, they do not use liquors. 2333. Is there any penalty in force if it is proved that they have made use of them ? — A very heavy one. '334. Have you ever seen that heavy penalty practically enforced ? — I cannot say thiit I have seen it ; but I have heard that a man whom I wished to employ had been detected trading in liquor, and 1 ad been taken t'own from Fort Liiramy on the Plat to the iStates. 0'2j. P 3 ^335- As Hon. C. W. W. FitxwUliam, n. p. 5 March 1857. (•- : '■' r ^ li8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. C. W. IV, litxwilUam, ki. p. K.r :, M. -5 •"4 n 5 March 1857. 233,5' >^s a prisoner f — As a prisoner, 2336. Chained?—! believe so. 2337- Then do you believe that that regulation is practically carriwl out r — I think it is, where they have tiie jjower to do so. •J338. Mr. Pcrcij il'erbcrl.'] You spoke of the anchorage; that ships of 500 tons could lie off the coal mine ?— Ves. 2339. Is that a secure and extensive anchoraj^e ?— It is not an extensive anchorage exactly opposite the coal mine ; it is perfectly secure, and within a quarter of a mile of it there is anchorage for any number of ships that choose to go there. 2340. Is the supply of coal supposed to he very large f — It had not been explored very much when I was there, hut they were then working a six-feet seam, which seemed to descend into the ground instead of rising to the surface. 2341. Viscount Sandon.] I think there are some islands between Vancouver's Islaml and tl»e mainland ? — Yes. 2342. Have you been on them ?~I have camped on some of them. 2343. Are tiiey capable of cultivation f — Yes, I think so. 2344. They are just at the mouth of the harbour, 1 think, opposite Victoria? —They are not at tlie mouth of the harbour. 2345. Just opposite r — Not opposite the moutli of the harbour ; they are to the back of the harbour. 2346. .Mr. Edward EU'ue.~\ Are not those the islands now in dispute between the American (iovcrnmeni and our own ? — Yes. 2347. Mr. Adikrhy.'] Can you tell us anything about the administration of the island, tlie government, or the magistracy ? — Tlierc was a governor appointed by the home Government, Mr. Douglas, and he had a council of five to aid him in the government of the island. 2348. Is he at all under the control of the Hudson's Bay Company ?— He is a chief factor in the Company. 2349. Was he appointed by the Company ?— No; not by the Company, but at the suggestion of the Company. 2350. What are the miigistracy, or how is the law enforced there "r- Mr. Douglas appointed magistratis. I do not know exactly whether they enforced the law as it would l)e enforced in Kngland, but they made some attempt to do so. 23,5 ' • There are tribunals in X\\'.' island in case of breaciies of the law ? — The offenders are brought up before the magistrates whenever such a case occurs. 23 -,2. Have tlie Company done anything by way of settling the land? — I do not think that the Hudson's Bay Company itself actually has, but the Puget Sound Fanning Company, wiiich is composted of members of the Hudson's Bay Comjjany, has taken out settlers there, and has cultivated a considerable quan- tity of land. 2353. Is that Puget Sound Company entirely merged in the Hudson's Bay Company, or is it a separate Company ■ — It is a separate Company, 1 believe, conij)osed altogether of members of the Hudson's Bay Company ; that is how it wiis explained to me. 2354. So that the whole of the I'uget Sound Company is merged in the Hudson's Bay Company r— Yes ; all tiie members of it are officers of the Hudson's Bay Company. 23,5.'). Mr. Edward Kllirc] You do not state that as a fact, do you ? — I was informed so. 23.3(i. Mr. Addtrltij.] Do the Company occujjy lands as belonging to them- selves besides the land which they have sold- — 1 think tliey had a few fields in cultivation close to the fort for their own supplies. 23,')7- Are the public buildint;s at the harbours, and the wharfs, and so on, retained by the Conijiany as their ov.n property r — There are no public buildings, and no wharfs, but those which belong to the Company. 23')K. Do the Company claim a royalty ui)on the mines ? — Yes. I am speak- ing of I H.'j.'j. 23,59. 1'" >'"" know whether they are taking any steps whatever to advertise immi:;rauts ? — I hiive never seen any advertisement of the sort. 2^Go. You talked of a surveyor being iippoiuied : how did it come to pass that SELECT COMMITFEK ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 119 that that surveyor was appointed, and yet that no survey took place?— He Hon. C. IV-IK sei'ined to me to be mostly engaged in determining the latitude and longitude Ftttvidliam, m. p. at different ijoints of the island, which was most usuless for the beneht of the "' "^ colonists. 6 *•"'•='' '^•■'7- •J3()i. Was he paid by the Company ? — Yes. 23()2. From whiit quarter do you think that the settlement of that country will naturally come ; from the sea side or from the land side ? Supposing it wiis perfectly free for colonisation, and that there were no rights of the Hudson's Hay Company acting as any ol)stacle to emigration from any portion of the world, do you think it likely tliat it would be. settUnl gradually from the sea, or that a ])opulation woidd grow up from the United States to it r — 1 think that in all jjrobability it would be settled from the sea ; that emigrants would sail from here. 2.363. Do you know that ])ortion of the United States called Columbia ? — I have been through the Wasliington and Oregon ttirritories ; there are very few roads there, and most of the eouummication is l)y water. 23C4. Does the ])opulation at all increase in that (lirection :— Vastly. 236,';. Towards the borders? — Yes, up along the shores of Puget Sound, by Nisqually. 2366. Is tliere any speculation in those fisheries of which you spoke, further than the mere fishing in canoes ; is there any appesirance of comi)anies being formed for the purjjose of speculating in those fisheries ? — None whatever. 'J'he Hudson's Bay Company traded the fish from the Indians, and annually sent down a great deal of salt fish to their depot at the Sandwich Islands. 2367. Uo the Company claim a monopoly of that fishery ; do they claim the exclusive right of fishery upon the coasts of Vancouver's Island ? — They do not fish themselves ; the Indians are the fishermen, and they trade their fish to the Company. 2368. Have the Com])any a monopoly in that trade? — No, I should not say that they have a monopoly there, for when I was at Cowichan there was an opi)osition going on at the time. 2 {(ig. From what quarter was it ? — A settler on the island, a Mr. Couj)er, was trading then. I think he had got some goods up froui San FVaucisco, and he was trading to San Francisco at the time. 2370. Mr. Grot/ail.] In fish ? — Mostly in lumber to San Francisco. 2371. Mr. Adilcrlc^.] Was Mr. Cooper a man who had purchased land from the Company ? — Yes, he had a farm there ; he had about I'y acres in cultivation then, and would, I dare say, before the year was out, double that. •,i.')72. Do you know Nootka Sound ? — No. 2373. I suppose that is a notoriously fine harbour? — I believe so. 2374. Can you state what is the nature of tiie coal which you have seen ; is it a good coal : — It is an excellent coal, very like the West Hiding of Yorkshire coal. 237,5. And that is a vein very near the surface r— Yes. 237(). Mr. Grogan.] What did you say were the production- hat the settlers wen; raising when you were there ; you spoke of the Indian^ raising a great quantity of potatoes ; was corn reared ? — Wheat was raised. 2377. Was it a safe crop: — Yes, I believe so. 2378. Were there any other cereal crops besides wheat ? — Oats and barley. 237y. Have you any doubt vvhatevc r that they would grow there just as well as they do in these climates? — None whatever. 2380. Chairman.] In short, it is a very fine soil and climate, is it not? — Yes. 2381. Sir John P^kiiiytuii.'} At what time of the year were you there? — In March and Apiil. 2382. Mr. Groffan.] Were there any number of settlers who had purchased land from the Company, or was Mr. Cooper an isolated case? — I think Mr. Cooper was an isolated case ; he was in partnership with a farmer, .Mr. Blenk- horn, who was by far the most energetic settler on the island ; he was a man who had been in Austrulia for several years, and afterwards came back to England, and then went out with .\lr. Cooper to the island. 2383. In fact there are no number of settlers going there, or in the island at present? — No, except those who are brought out by the Puget Sound Company. o.2j. P4 2384. The y I I ;ji -i 1. 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. C. H'. IV. Fitrwilliam, m. p. 5 March 1857. '2384. The settlers whom you have described to us, and those in and about Fort Victoria, were all the ! Mnrch 1857. Hudson's Bay Company ?- In the district called the Mackenzie River district ; the most northerly district. 2395. In what capacity ? — 1 was a clerk, or a postmaster, u junior officer in the Hudson's Bay Company's service. 2396. In what year was that ? — In the years 1838, 1839, and 1840, I think ; I am not quite sure of the date ; but it was about that time. 2307. What induced you to leave the service of the Hudson's Bay Company r — I wished to come to England to complete my education ; I was desirous of obtaining a University education, and of (jualifying myself for a profession. 2398. You did not leave the service of the Company in consequence of any dispute r — Not by any means ; I had no dispute at all with the Hudson's Hay Company, and have no personal complaint whatever against them. 2399. When did you return to that country i — I have not been back since. 2400. You were born there, and as a child you lived there r — Ves. 2401. What was your age when you left? — I was very young ; under 20. 2402. In what year did you leave ? — To the best of my recollection about 1841, I think ; I am not quite sure ; or 1842 ; it is many years since I left the territory. 2403. During the whole of those three years for which you were in the ser%'ice of the Company, you we: • at the Mackenzie River, were you not r — During the three years that I wit. in the Company's service. I had travelled through portions of the territory before that ; but I was very young at the time. 2404. Have you any knowledge of the Red River Settlement, for instance ? — Yes ; I was at school there as a boy, and I have a little property there, for- merly belonging to my father, which c ) t i i Mr. i<. IiUtiiir. one who chose to enter into it r — I have thouglit over that question a great (leal, I'spccially in reference to the Indians. 1 may at onc(^ state that my chief 5 March 1857. object, in connectinfj; myself with thi« movement at all, was to improve the condition of the native and half-caste Indians in the Red River Settlement. I l)elieve, upon the whole, that if a monopoly of the fur trade could be estab- Ushi-d, and could be possibly made to consist with the enlightenment and pro- gress of the Indians, a monopoly would be best ; but I am afniiil that under the present circumstances a monopoly is impossible. I do not think that the Canadians would allow a monopoly to be csttiblished in that territory. You are quite aware that they have laid a claim to that territory, and I believe they have a legal right to it. '-'41 1. What territory are you speaking of? — The Hudson's Bay territory. 241 '2. Irre.spectively of that claim, and adverting merely to the advantage of the Indians, what do you think would be the effect of throwing open the fur trade indiscriminately to all comers? — In some respects the Indians would be benefited ; I see no objection but one : that is, that there might be a possibility of spirituous liquors being introduced into that ttrritory in greater quantities than they now are introduced. 2413. Do you believe that they are introduced in any considerable quantity? — I have very great reason to believe so. J414. Are you speaking of the entire territory, or only of those parts of the territory that adjoin the settled districts?— From the most correct information that 1 can procure, I believe that the Hudson's Bay Company have discontinued the sale of spirituous liquors in the northern portions of their territories, but that in the country south of the Saskalchawan, and down to the frontier, spirituous liquors are either given or bartered ; at any rate supplied to the Indians ; there are facts to prove it, which I have liere. •2415. With regard to the fur trade, merely looking at it as a trade, do you believe that if the trade was indiscriminately thrown open to everybody the consequence would be the destruction of the fur-bearing animals or not ? — I think not ; I think that is jjroved by the fact that even in the western states of the United States the fur trade is still carried on to a very great extent; I believe there is now a fur merchant in London, Mr. Lampson, who is the agent for the American Fur Company and for the American fur traders ; I believe his sales are quite as large as those of the Hudson's Bay Company ; but the furs are inferior in value; they are of a coarser description, as all furs in southern latitudes are. 2416. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Does that remark apply to all furs, or to a par- ticular sort of furs ?— The agiiregate of the sales, I belii^ve, is about the same as that of the Vludson's Bay Company. 2417. Do those sales include all sorts of furs, or are they specially confined to one or two descriptions of animals? — I believe they include all sorts of furs, as fur as I have been informed. 2418. Chairman.] Are you at all aware of what has been taking place during the last few years in the United States ; of the wars that have been going on between the white and the rfed man, and of the b'oodshed that has so been occasioned ? — Yes ; I have read many accounts of t'lese wars. ^ 2419. They have been very dreadful, I believe ?--They have. 2420. There has been absolute peace, has the' e not, in the Hudson's Bay territory between the white and the red man ? — -Tne numbers of Indians in the Hudson's Bay territories are so few that there could not have been any great wars. As stated by Sir George Simpson, the other day, I think the whole number of the Indians in the thickwood countries, as he called them, was only about 30,000 odd ; and when that is distributed over such ai. immense ai-ea, it is impossible t^at these Indians, so distributed, could get up a war. 2421. You believe the Indian tribes in the United States to be far njore numerous ? — Yes, and of a far more warlike character 2422. In fact, it is a country more fitted for the subsistence of human beings ? — Decidedly so. 2423. Should you have no apprehension that, in tliis vast territory now subject to the Hudson's Bay Company, if there was an uncontrolled admission of whites, to trade in I'urs in that territory, there would not spring up wars between the white and the red man of a very atrocious character?-- 1 do not see any probability of it, for the Hudson's Bay Company do not pretend to control SELKCrr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. i^^ * lar luore control these Indians r and they do not pretend to exercise any influence over Mr. A. Ishitier. them so far as I am aware. 2d .». Do they not practically exercise a very great influence over the In- 5 March 1857. diaiis? — They may. 242,';. Do they ? — I do not know that they do. .'4j(). You do not believe that they do? — I do not believe that they do. f have never seen any instances in wliieli they have any practical influence of that kind which you speak of ; their influence is entirely connected with trade ; I do not believe that they have anything else to do with the Indians than pro- cure furs iit the cheapest rate they can, aiid deal with them. .?4'.27. You do not think that they exer-^ise their influence to keep order in the country, und t<> uphold justice, so .t.. as it is possible to uphold justice tbrousih so great an extent of country, in tho circumstances in which they are placed .' — I believe it is a principle of the Hudson's Bay Company's administra- tion not to interfere in the quarrels or disputes of tribes at all, or to interfere as little as possible. If any aggressions are made upon the whites by the Indians, then they punish them severely. 2428. In short, in your opinion, the interests of the red man would not suffer if the whole territory was thrown open to white men, without any restriction or control ? — I think they would not, if there was a guarantee that spirituous liquors should not be introduced into the territory ; if there were proper means for preventing it. 2429. Do you believe that it would be possible, it' rival traders were comjiet- ing with one another in the chase of these fur-bearing animals, through the instrumentality of the Indians, to prevent or restrain those parties thus com- peting with one another from having recourse to the s^upply of spirits to the Indians, which is the most attractive means of influencing them ? — I believe it would be difficult, but not impossible ; at least, to a very great extent. I be- lieve the practice in the American Fur Company's territories, if I may use the term, that is, in those portions of the territories occupied by xVmericans, is to allow no i)erson to trade in furs without a licence, which licence is forfeited upon the finding of any spirituous liquors in the possession of the trader ; one trader is set to watch the other ; they have each an interest in informing upon each other ; and I believe, upon the whole, that spirituous liquors are not largely used. 1 have here rather a remaikable paper ; a complaint by the American Government against the Hudson's Bay Company for supplying spirituous liquors in large quantities to the Indians ; a complaint addressed to our CJovern- mrnt, and jirinted here in the form of a Parliamentary Paper. 2430. Mr. Edward Eliict.] What is the date of it? — 1850. {T/ie l)V/«ew Tide Appemlut. delivered in tht same.) 2431. Chairman.} You believe, then, speaking in the interest of the red man, that it would be for his advantage that the monojioly of the Hudson's Bay Company in fur trading should be abolished, and that the country should be thrown open to the unlimited competition of any persons who might wish to engage in it? — I should not like to express a very decided opinion upon the point. I should very much like to hear the evidence of the Bishop of Rupert's Land, and the clergymen who have been in that territory, before I would expresi^ any distinct opinion upon the matter. 2432. You have considered these questions for a great many years ; have you not formed a decided opinion upon a point of that description? —I have not. 2433. It is a point on which a great deal turns, is it not? — It is a very important point. 2434. You are, doubtless, conversant with the state of things which existed in that country when there was competition in the fur trade between two great companies, the North-VVest Company and the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I have read of the disputes that took place between them. 243/). \\ iiat was the state of things then?— There was a great deal of disorder and violent? in the terrritory : I think that under present circumstances these disorders would not arise again ; there was an absence of any controUing power in the country in Xhose times ; there were no clergymen nor missionaries ; there was no public opinion of any sort or kind. 2436. You think that theie could be an efficient system of control established 0.25. Q 2 which ...1 1 t : 184 MINUTES OF rviDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE r-r ;i' !lf i!M' I H i Mr. A. Uhuttr. which would prevent those evilH for the future ? — By extending the Canadian Government over those territories, not otherwise. S, Marcb iB,;;. 3437. Do you thinl< that tlie (iovernment of Canada could undertake to ki^ep peace nnd order, and to enforce a proper system of cheek and control over this vtist territory, which would jjrevent these evils? — If they did not I should not recommend the territories heing thrown open. •2438. Do you think that the Canadian Government could do it f — ! believe it is their wish to do it ; I believe they coidd undertake it, becaus«> that ter- ritory is now practically governed from London : why should it not he governed from Toronto much more easily • 2439. At present it is governed from Loudon by a compiiny who have a mono poly of the trade, and have their servants scattered all over the country ? — rreciscly. 2440. it wouhl then be governed by an authority at Toronto which would have no trading interest in the matter, but would have the duty of keeping order through all this vast territory ; that would he the difference, would it not ? — That would be the difference 2441. And you believe that the system would work equally well ? — A force would be required in the Hed River Settlement, which force would keej) the whole territory under control ; because access to any jiart of the northern dis- tricts there, is by one outlet or one opening, the Saskatchawan River, wliieh enters into Lake Winnipeg ; you cannot approach Mackenzie's River, Athabasca, or any of those territories in the north, except througii that one opening. A custom-house or a little garrison established there would exercise an effectual control and su|)ervi8ion over everything which entered the country. 2442. \Vhat you would propose would be to join the whole of this immense territory on both sides of the Kocky Mountuins to the colony of Canada ? — I am afraid that it will come to that ; I should hardly call it a plan, but I am afraid there will be no other way of settling the difficulty. 2443. There would be a considerable expense incurred, 1 presume, in main- taining order through so vast an extent of country ? — There would he the expense of establishing a force at the Red River territory. 2444. There must be posts scattered all over the country, I presume .' — I believe order could be maintained without stationing those posts all over the countr}'. 244.",. How could the expense be defrayed, whatever it was, of governing and administering the affairs of a country of this description r — The trade of that country is consiilerable ; a tax could be laid ujion the trade to defray the expense of controlling and conducting it. 2446. Do you think that it would not answer the i)urposes of Canada as a colony better, to have joined to Canada any country in its vicinity over which it is at all iirobabhi or jjossible that settlement should extend ? — I am not prepare*! to speak upon that point ; I only judge of the sentiments of C'anada from the • newspapers. Merely stating my own opinion, I sliould say that there might perhaps be no objection to it, axid that the arrangement on the whole might be a beneficial one, taking the territory gradually as, they required it. 2447. But do you think that it would be expedient or advisable to join Van couver's Island, for instance, to the colony of Canada ■ — Vancouver's Island is quite a different consideration ; I think there ought to be a separate colony there. 2448. With regard to the country on the mainland adjoining Vancouver's Island, which may be adapted for the purposes of settlement, would it not be more convenient that that should be mwle a colony, and that its inhabitants should manage their own affairs, rather than be obliged to go to Toronto for that purpose ? — I think the whole of the territory west of the Rocky Mountains must be administered from Vancouver's Island, if it is thrown open. The Canadians may, however, think differently. 2440. Then you are speaking merely of Rupert's Land ? — Merely of Rupert's Land ; the territory to the north of Canada. I believe it is our interest to people that country, because the United States are fast peopling the territory along the frontier, and they will have that territory from us unless we do people it. 24,50. You think that it v>rould not be enough, if such an arrangement could be made, to take away from the Hudson's Bay Company any such territory as could SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDbONS BAY COMPANY 13/5 could be made use of for the ])urpoHe8 of settlement for n lonu; time to come ; Mr, A. Iibuitr. but thiit it would be nlso de»iriible to take from tbeni that portion of their terri- — iory which could only be applied for the purposes of the fur trade, and to throw 5 Mtrch 1857. it open to unrestricted ••ompetition r — I am looking nt the inducements which would lend emigrants into that territory ; I do not think they would go from Canada to the lied River Settlement merely for the purpose of obtaining land ; they could get land in abundance in Canada. If, therefore, our object is to jM'ople that territory, we must hold out an inducement to tliem by throwing open the fur trade to them. Hut eveii otherwise I do not think it is juHsible to enforce n monopoly in tliat territory ; you cannot do it. If you tlirow open Red River to the Canadians, you throw open the fur trade practical!}-. There is no means t)f ])reventing those people going the/e ; you may just as well talk of establishing a monopoly in the gold fields of Australia. 24,') I. You think, whatever the difficulties are, that thos(! difficulties must be coped with ? — 1 tiunk so ; there is the case of the Retl River Settlement ; they have gone into the fur trade in s|)ite of all the endeavours of the Hudson's Bay Conjpany, and it is a very insignificant colony. I have now a statement of the furs whicrh were sent out from tin; Red River district by way of the United States. They are forcing a channel through there. •J4.').'. Am I rightly representing your opinions as amounting to this, that you consider the thing inevitable, that, whether we wish it or not, the fur trade will, by the i)rogr(!Ss of events, be thrown open to competition r — That is my opinion. 24,-53. But that you are doubtful, if it could be prevented, of the effects that such a change would produce upon the interests of the Indians, as fiir as they are concerned ? — Yes ; I wish to reserve my opinion upon that ])oint. 24.'54. You referred to a paper giving an account of the fur trade going on with the Americans : — The trade going on between the Red River Territory and the United States. 24,')5. Mr. Edward Eilice.] What is that paper to which you refer ? — An extract from a newsjjaper which has been put into my hands within the last two days. If it is received as evidence, I .shall feel bound to give the date, and the name of the paper. It is evidently an authentic document as far as a newsjjaper state nent can be so : " Here are a few interesting Minesota items. The towns along the western bank of the Mississippi are rapidly im))roving in trade and population. A new land offifie is soon to be opiined at Buchanai>, near the head of Lake Superior. St. Lawrence is the name of a new town, 15 miles above Shakoj)ee, on the Minesota River. Trade between St. Paul and Sujierior is (juite brisk. The total amount of peltries from the Pembina. Red River region, exported from St. Paul, Minesota, for 1856, is as follows :• — G4,'292 rats; 8,276 minks; 1,428 martens ; 8/6 foxes; 3,600 coons; 1,045 fishers ; 10 wolverines; ,"}64 badgers; 2,032 wolves; 405 otter; 2,642 rit-foxes ; 610 deer" (skins jmjbably) ; '' 20 cross-fox ; 8 silver fox ; 50 lynx ; 7,500 buffalo robes, and 586 pounds of beaver ; worth, in the aggregate, about 97,000 dollars" 24;,6. You do not consider yourself responsible for that statement ? — No, it is simply a newspaper statement. 2457. Mr. KinnaiidJ] Is it from an English or an American paper? — It has only been sent to me within the last two days, and in that form. I have written to ask where it is extracted frofi, and of course, if it is received as evidence, I shall be able to state in a few days. ^4,58. Mr. Gordon.] Do you credit it, from the otiier sources of information which are open to you : — 1 do. ■J4,5(). Mr.G'ro^Y^/.] I believe you had a long correspondence with the Colonial Office relative to a petition to Her Majesty which was sent from the Red River Settlement some years ago ? — Yes. I laid that petition before Lord Grey. I was myself resident at the time in England ; but I am nut responsible fir the statements of that petition in any way. I believe them to be true : and I pro- duced evidence in the course of ihose papers to support the statemer/ts umde by the petitioners as far as I c(mld. 24()o. Am I to understand that you were concerned in getting up the evidence which is contained in these papers ? — Yes, but not in getting up the petition ; I had no connexion with the petition. 0.25. Q 3 2461. I refer lafi MINUTES OF EVIDFNCE TAKF.N BEFORE THE lifllydil ill 'Hi Mp I'.- 1- I:' IH: li'm Mr. A. ttktttr. 'J4fil. I rrfrr to a vnrlrty 'tf pupiTH tlint w«'rt' iiiclcwrd wliich w«'r<' f(invanl«'(l to tin- Colonial Orticr in cupport of tliiit |iftition from H«'«l Uiv«'r< - Yrs. S March 1857. 2.^tv2. You not \ *lii» I'videiuT to biirk up tlu' stutniuuts of tin- petition ■ — Pr('ciii«'ly. •-'4113. You liavf no ([uestion or iloiiht of th»' nccurncy of tln'st- papfn* f— No, unh'Hs then' iire sonn- n>isi)rint.f ; there ure ^o^u• miHprintH in the t'ourse of them. •24<»4. In page 7H of the Pnrliitmentnry Paper entitled " Corresjumdenre relativ*' to Complaints of the Inhabitants of th<' Red Hiver Settlement," there are the names of five retired servants of tlie Iluilson's Hay ('omi»any, and some very strong statements are there contained • — Yes, I have seen them. .'4tt-,. Did you know any «)f those .servants yourself.' — The last two I kn«'w personally ; as to tlie other three, 1 know where they are just now, and know their friends, and know them to be respectable persons. 24t><). Have you any doubt whntsot ver of their being trustworthy and tmthful men?- None whatever. •J467. .\nd )ou place full confidence in their statements "■ — In the statements given here I do ; they agree with my own observations ami experience. 2^6^. Will you turn over to page HO: " ,\re there any schools for the instruction of the natives where you have been ?" appears to have been a {[uestion sent to these five servants ?— Yes. 24(io. They respectively answer, " I do not know of any." " None." '• There are no schools for the instruction of the natives." " None at the posts I have been at." " A school was lately established at Norway House." Does the state- ment there correspond with your knowledge of that Red River Settlement, and of the general management of the Hudson's Hay Comi)any with n-gard to the education of the people ? — It is perfectly true, I believe, to this day, as far as the Hudsim's Bay Company are concerned. That is making a distinction between the schools estidilished by the missionarie.-J and the schools estnblisheil by the Hudson's Hay Company, of which there are none that I know of, with the exception of one at the Red River Settlement, an academy established for the education of the childivn of the officers of the Hudson's Hay Company, and under the charge (•'" the bishop. ■2471). It is under the sujjervision of the bishop ; but who is at the expense of the school ?^ — Tlie Huiison's Bay Company contribute 100/. a yeartowanls the school ; l)ut it is a self-supporting school ; pupils pay, 1 think, about 'M I. a year to it ; it is a school of a superior class. 2471. Mr. Cfmrhs I'itzwiUiam.} Were you yourself educated there- — I was. 2472. Mr. G>(Mjan,] And you had to bear your shareof the contribution? — Yes. 2473. With the ex«;eption of the contribution of 100/. a year to that school of a su|)erior class, is there, as far as your knowledge goes, any school in the territory of the Hudson's Hay Company assisted by them ?- I know of none. 2474. Mv. Edward F.lUce.j Are you speaking of the period when you were there r — As far as my information extends down to the present time. 247.^). Mr. diogat/.] Are yoa now speaking of tlie state of things at the time you were there.' — Ves; and I believe the same state of things exists at the present day. 247t). The evitlcnce you have just given us was, in the first instance, confined to your own knowledge; it is some time since you left the settlement ? — It Is some time. " 2477. Have you been in close communication aixl correspondence with any of the settlers in that locality since that time :— Ever since, down to the present time ; continuously ; uninterruptedly. 2475. Do you conceive yourself in a position, by reason of that corres- pondence, to speak of the state of the settlement at present '. — I do. 2470. You have uo doubt, whatever, that you represented the ojnnions of the settlers in the correspondence with the Colonial Government in 1849? — No doubt whatsoever. .\nd 1 may mention, that since that time, in the last three or four years, a portion of my family who were resident at Red River have come over, and arc now living with me, and they of coiiisehave given me more recent informatiim. 24S0. Mr. Edwdiu KUictP\ I think you said, that with reference to those c.)inplaints of which you were the organ, you were not responsible for the statements contained in them --- Not for the prtition. 2481. Mr. SELI'.CT COMMITTKI-: ON 1111, HUDSON'S BAY COMl'ANV. V2Z J4S1. Mr. Itoiliiirft- .] Hut 1 su|»|i()>n' yoii hold yourHclf n'H|)onMl)li' for j-vcry Ut. A, Jibitttr. part (if llif tvidciicc which you nrc now jri\iiij< as your own ojiinion ?- I do. ■J ,Sj. Mr. (hoijnii. 1 1 rt'frrn'd you to \\n)H' 80 iiiidorthc luad of th«M|U('Htion, 5 M»rch 1857. " Ari' i\wrv any m-IiooIh for tlu' iiistrnction of tlw nativcx where you have Ix'cn '." Tlu'rc ari' tiv«' aiiHWprs of these five itervants, whieh, down to 1849, you believe to he literally correct V • Yes, I do. ; .•4H3. Are you able to cay whether, at the prcBcnt dat*', you consider that tlio.se answers would he applicable i* — 1 believe so; with tlu* exception which I have fornu'rly mentioned. • 24S4. Namely, that there ist one Mchool to which assistaiu'c is given of 100/. t 1 1 j 11 year '*. Yes, and none other. | ; ; | 34S,v The next (pu'stion is, " Are you nware of any attempts of any kind ! ' '! iiaving l)een made by the Company to civilise the natives und instnwit tliem in reliKionr" You have the answers befoii you. No. i. "They an' kept in igniranccatid darkness." No. 2- " No." No. 3. " None." No. 4. " Not aware of any." .\nd No. ."i. '• Not aware of any." Are you equally satisfied of the correctness of these replies in lHt!> as you were of the previous (mes? — ■ That is my opiniim at the present time, distinguishing between the attempts inacU- by the Missionary Societies, and partially assisted by the Hudson's Hay Company, as we heard the other day, and the attempts made by the Hudson's Bay t'«mij)any themselves. 248(i. You say the uiissionaiies partially assisted by the Hudson's Bay I om- pnny ('an you defini? it more accurately r — I heard it stated the other day, in replv to a (juestion of this nature, that the (Company give ceitain sums of money, varying from .")»>/. to l.'iO/., to missionaries. I know that these are •jiven to the missionaries individually ; that no account is exacted of the expen- ; diture of these sums ; that rio returns are made to the Company of the way in which education may be advanced by these sum.s ; that they arc given, in fact, j 10 the missionaries, and not to the nussions, and are, upon the whole, ratner j an impediment to tliem than otherwise. j -:487. CJifiii'Mdii.] How do you mean " an impediment" to them .- — In this way, tliat it makes them shut their eyes to many matters which occur. •.'488. Mr. Edward Ellicc] I believe those missionaries are not appointed by the Comiiany ■ — No, by no means; they are paid from other sources, and these sums of money are given to them additionally. I an> loth to say so, but they are, in effect, sops to the missionaries. 2480. Chairman.] In jwint of fact, do you believe that Christianity has made any progress ai.:ong the Indian tribes? — I believe it has made very rapid , progress in tb"* last few years, since the bishop went out there. i J4()o. Is that among the trib( '^ m 'he immediate vicinity of the settled country, or far back into the \\ •' rness ? — Asfar as the Suska*' .lawan. I believe that, at the missionary stntion. near Cumberland-house, on the laskatchawan, the Indians have made very great progress. 241)1 • I believe the si-ttlers at the Ked River are, upon the whole, a very moral and wcll-orderetS community, are they not? — 1 believe so; especially the . English race, and tin'.i descendants. 2402. Mr. Edward Ellicc,'] Your observation with regard to these sums of j money being a sop to the missionaries, I presume, does not apply to the sum of nu)ney that tin Company pay to the bishop ? — The suiu of money that is |' paid to the 1)isliop by the Company is paid under nn arrangement sanctione those portions of the country which have a permanently frozen soil 2642. Mr. Charles Fitzmlliam.] To what depth dees the soil thaw in the summer time ? — At Fort Simpson, for example in latitude 62", the thaw in Oc- tober extended down to 1 1 feet. There was an experiment made in that place ; that was the whole of the summer thaw. At York Factory, which is nearly in the same latitude,, I believe, on the shores of Hudson's Bay, the thaw had pene- trated only three feet. At Spvern, which is further south, it had penetrated about five feet. All these experiments are detailed in the Edinburgh New Philo- sophical Journal for January 1841. A great variety of experiments were made and compared with experimeni:; made in Siberia by Professor Baer, of St. Petersburgh. 2643. In the country that you are now speaking of there are thick forests of timber ; at Fort Simpson, at York Factory, and at Severn, it is a wooded coun- try ? — It is a well-wooded country. 2644. In the event of the country being settled up, and the consequent dis- appearance of the timber, would any material change be produced on the soil in respect of thawing?— -If the woods were cut down, and a freer access afforded to the sun's rays, no doubt the thaw would be greater ; but I believe that there would be a permanently frozen subsoil, though at a greater depth from the surface. 2645. Would that ground ice interfere with agricultural operations ?— Not at all. ' 2646. Of no sort?— No. If the thaw is sufficiently deep, the frozen subsoil does not appear to affect the processes of vegetation in the smallest degree. In Siberia, which is in the same latitude as the northern parts of the Hudson's Bay Company's territories, there are large crops of wheat every year. 2b47. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 137 2647. Do you think tliat the country on Mackenzie's River is at all adapted to th(^ wants of civilised man ?- 1 he climate is very severe there ; but the soil, so fur as I 1kiv(> an opportunity of judgin};;, is tolerably well adapted for cul- tivation. Vou can raise barley and potatoes very w(!ll indeed. J648. Mr. drogaii.] Without risk?— Without any risk what.soever. And on the river Liard, which comes from the mountains, you c in raise large crops ; the soil is better on that river, imd wheat has been occasionally raised. J649. Mr. Bell.] You mean that if there was anything to induce people to ?ttle there, independent of agriculture, they might cultivate agriculture, but would not be likely to go there for agricultural pursuits alone ? — No ; the yield is not equiU of course to the yield of cirops in more southern countries. 26.')0. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Do you know the Saskatchawan River ? — I was born upon the banks of that river. 2651. Where? — At Cumberland House. 2652. Do you know anything of the coal on it ? — I have collected all the information upon that subject, in a memoir whicli has been published by the Geological Society ; there are some specimens of the coal in this country which have been examined by Mr. Bowerbank, the greatest authoilcy we have upon these matters, and I believe the general opinion of geologists is, that it is a tertiary coal. 2653. Mr. Roebuck.'] A lignite?— Yes; however, nothing more than the surface coal bir, been examined; I have seen the coal in that portion of the coalfield running across Mackenzie's River near Great Bear Lake ; there is no doubt that there is a great coalfield there all the way to the Rocky Mountains ; the coal was tolerable, where I saw it. 26j4. If that country is granitic, how comts it that there is tertiary coal there? — The country is not gra? "tic; the granitic tract lies east of the great lakes, which are situated in the line of fracture between the primary and secondary formations, their bf\ains being mostly e-;cavated in the latter. You find the east side always granitic, and the west side air .ys limestone, or some secondary formation. 265-). So that that portion of the territory lying west of the line which you speak of is capable of cultivation because it is upon limestone f — Yes. Mr. A. Itbitttr. 5 March 1857. mi' ¥ The Rev. Griffith Owen Curbett, called in ; and Examined. 2656. Mr. Lowe.] ARE you a CIerg}-man of the Church of England? — Yes. Rev. G. 0. Cor6e«. 2657. Have you been in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory ? — Yes. 2658. During what period ? — 1 left England in 1851 and arrived at Quebec. I then went to Montreal, stayed there till the navigation opened up, and thence I went to BuHalo, across the territory to Chicago ; from Chicago to the iMis- sissippi, and up the Mississippi 400 miles to St. Paul, and from St. Paul along the St. Peter's River, and thence up towards the Missouri to Pembina, and from Pembina to Red River. 26.'i9. How long did you reside in the Hudson's Bay Company's territories ? — About three years. I left in 1855. I took charge of the Grand Rapids Dis- trict, St. Andrew's, as it is now called, the largest parish on the Red River. 2660. Whereabouts is that? — About 15 miles from the seat of govern- ment. 2(161. What was your duty there? — I had sole charge of the parish, the Grand Rapids District. 2662. Were you a chaplain of the Company ?— No. 2663. In wliat capacity were you there? — As a missionary of the Colonial Church and School Society. 26C4. Did you receive any payment from the Company? — No. 2665. Were you under the Bishop ? — Yes. 2666. Mr. Ijordon.] Did you ever visit Portage-h.-Prairi'j ? — Yes. 2f)()'j. Was not there a desire to form a missionary settlement at that place . — Yes. 2668. What led to that desire? — There were a number of settlers congregated on the Assiniboine River, about 50 or 60 miles from the seat of government, and these settlers petitioned for a missionary to be despatched to them for the instruction of themselves and their children. 0.25. S 669. Was i!''^ •i ■ ■■' '38 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE m i:H-.^ r}'\ Re». G. O. Cofi*«. 'j6r)n. Was any objection made to the formation of a station there? — Yes. - - — .2670. Mr. Adilerlei/.] What was the date of tiiat objection ? — About 1853, 5 March 1857. I think ; the people may have conptreijaled to petition for a missionary earlier tliun that (late, i)ut I speak in reference to my own visit. afiyi. Mr. dordon.] What objections were made to the formation of n scttle- irient there, and by whom ? — 1 was given to understand that the Hudson's Bay Company wouhi not permit the formatient it in r*ther (juarti-rs also. Since the bishop's arrival in England I have asked his I^)rdship whether any change has taken place for the better ; and he says that it is rather for the worse, because now the people have to pay down 1 5 /. instead of 1 2 /. in my own immediate district. Tlierefore perhaps hod not this Committee been sitting, I should have felt a desire, before returning to the country, to have sought an interview with the Colonial Secre- tar}|, for the purpose of having some change introduced ; because we have appealed to the authorities in the country, and have had no change whatsoever introduced iu my own district. 2686. That deposit which you have spoken of, you think acts as a quasi pro- hibition to settlement ? — Yes ; the raising of the terms for the lands ; and it also makes the people indignant, because many of them say, " We were the original proprietors of the soil, and now that we wish to settle down and form a settlement (and here is a missionary who has come all the way from England), the terms are raised so that yn' cannot pay them ; we have not the means of paying them." adSj. You have mentioned two cases in which obstructions were, as you think, made by the Company to the fonnation of a settlement ; can you give us any other instances within your own knowledge/ -I can mention other instances ; and I can also, with reference to this subject, give an extract from a letter which I received recently from a missionary at the Bed River Settle- ment, who says : " Sir Gc-rge Simpson c xpressed his displeasure at Archdeacon Cochrane's procc umgs at the Portage la- Prairie, and required that he with- draw and the place be left vacant ; to which the archdeacon replied, ' I wonder Sir George Simpson does not know me better ; he thought to send me from the Grand Bapids, then to put me out of the Indian settlement ; and does he think I am now going to quit the portage ? I am surprised that he has not learnt better by this time.' " I have the original of this letter with me, if ihe Chair- man should like to see it. a688. Mr. Edward EUicc] Who is the writer of that letter ; is it Archdeacon Cochrane ? — This was written to me by a missionary upon the Red Biver. 2689. From whom is the letter ; it is not from Archdeacon Cochrane ? — No. 2690. It is from a friend of yours r — It is from a missionary in the Reil River Settlement. 2691. Mr. Roebuck.] Have you any objection to state his name? — I have not ; he is the Rev. Mr. Taylor, the agent of the Propagation Society. 2C92. Mr. Gordon.'] Have you known any other case in which the mis- sionaries either have been, or have thought they have been, desired by the Com- pany's officers to quit the post at which they were labouring? — There was Fort Alexander, to which objections were raised in the very same manner. 2693. Where is Fort Alexander? — It is near Lake Winnipeg; concerning that I can read an extract from the sanie gentleman, wlio has written to me as follows : " Sir George Simpson has given permission now to occupy Fort Alexander ; to that place 1 suppose Mr. G. (a missionary), will eventually be appointed ; but strange to stay, he was to confine himself to the fort, not to civilise and evangelise the hcutlien ; not to form a locality or permanent dwelling for the Indians." There is, however, no missionary there, I believe, at the present time. 2694. Have you ever heard that the authorities of the Company have e::pre#sed their opinion that it would be better if the missionaries would give up their efforts there ?— We have heard them state that if missionaries and missionary settlements increase, chief factors and fur trading posts must decrease. 2695. Mr. Lowe.] Whom are you speaking of when you say "them'*? — The agents of the Company. 2696. Wiiat agents, and where ?— In the neighbourhood of Red River, 2697. What are their names?— I should prefer not mentioning the names. 0.25. s 2 2698. Will . f 1 ■H^ no MINUTES OF FA'IDENCE TAKEN FiEFORE TIIK !l R«r. O. 0. Cnrltll. March 1 8^;. ml m 1 * ; I .-. t /- i iijj ^ i • ; 1 1 hil nil 2Cmf. Will you trll u« under wimt cirrumRtuneeH it wjw mentioned ; wn8 it an ofhrinl eoniniuninition, or liow wim it mmle ? — There lire severnl instances ; it was* mentioned on one oeeasion when some of the iix*'"*** of th»' Company and Bome of the eh-rgymen were feathered together diseussing these things. 2(>0(). In the course of <'(mversation •— Yes. 3700. Lord Stanlei/.] It was a casual remark nam»'d bj' one person in a eon- versation?— Not a casual remark ; it was a discussiim as to how the system of the Mudson'it Bay ('om|mny acts in the country. 270 1. Mr. Luu'e.\ This i;entleman stated it as his opinion in conversation r —Yes. 2702. Mr. Bnebtiek.] And was the conduct of the Company in accordance with that opinion so given ■ — Tlu- conduct of ^he Company, or the system of the Company ns such, is exactly in accordance with it. 2703. Mr. Gro<;an.] You mention this as having been a conversation ai^iong some clergymen anil gentlemen assembled ; did they cimeur in the view whieli was so expressed to then) ; did they throw any doubt upon the statement at all r — Nut the slightest. 2704. Mr. Gordon.] Were you ever informeil by any missionary there that he had been desired to quit the country, and that on his request that the person so desiring him would put that desire into writing, the request had been declined? -I have heard Archdeacon (Cochrane state that. 2705. Mr. LoiveJ] Of himself?— Of himself; that when he was going on buihling the church at the (Jrand Uajjids, which is now the chief district in the R (1 River Settlement, so great was the excitement occasioned by the intimidations of Sir George Simpson that for eight months no settler or native seemed to ])ossess sufficient courage to lift an axe or hoc to proceed with the building, and that he was in the greatest possible trouble under the circum- stances ; that Sir George Simpson eventually went to him, aud told him that he had better leave the country than build that church ; that he then said, " Will you put it upon paper, and I v/ill go to England if you will r" and that Sir George declined jjutting it upon paper. 2700. Archdeacon Cochrane stated this to you, I understand? — He stated this to me upon the occasion of the raising of the terms of taking the land 10 obstruct my own district; he said, "I rarely do any good in this countr\ without having an opposition; but we have tried in the lower part of tiic settlement, therefore go forward." He stated this to me to encourage me. 2707. Where-— At my own station. 270S. When ?— Perhajjs in 18.i3or 18.")4. 2700. W'as any one else firesent ■ — I am not sure, but still his observation.^ were well understood in the settlement. 2710. Is the archdeacon in England ? — No. 2-11. Mr. Kduaril Kllice.] He is at Ued River, is not he ? — Yes. 2712. Mr. Gordon. What is the physical character of the country- — It is very good for agricultural operations. 2713. How far from the l)auk» of the river, in your o])inion, might agricultural operations be profitably extended .' — For a very great distance. 2714. More than a mile from tlie banks?— I have heard Mr. M'Dermott, who is, perhaps, the greatest merchant >e tliey say. " If we raise it we cannot sell it." Oonsennently ««• oumut (Icpeiid upon tl'em f«ir our supplies; therefore it ii^ood deal of our time is ()l)lii!;ed to he directed to nuricultural jmrsuits, wideh tim<. miKht he (U'voted to educational ])ursuits if the people were suthoiently encouraf^ed in raising their ifrniii. ■2J2\. It is your opinion, that if tliere were a sufficient market, even with the present population, agricultural |)ursuits might he profitahly followed to a much larger extent ? — Yes, to an almost utdimited extent, up to u certain line of latitude in the n< ""Mi, and still further north I believe nH we advance to the western part of t\w »!ontinent. J7JJ. Mr. (rrafidn.] What latitude are you referring tor — Perhaps four degrees or five dcgr«;es north of tiie boundary line, beginning at HJ degrees west longitude, about two or three degrt < s north of the line, and widening up to five degrees in advancing us far as 127 degrees west longitude. •J7J3. Mr. Charlit FitzuilUam.\ Will you tell us what the nature of the soil is about lied Ilivcr ; yo\i say there is n large extent of country there which could be cultivated with advantage ; what sort of country is it.'— The .soil is alluvial ; they cultivate the soil without nmnuring it ; they sow it for I'i and 14 years together, and jiroduce for four (puirts, 12 bushels of wheat, G3 or 70 lbs. to the Imsliel, which I am told by tlu; farmers of England really exceeds the returns in many parts of Great iJritain. J724. You say that there is a large extent of country about Red River which is capable of cultivation ; is there water in that country i* — Yes. ■J~2;',. I here are streams running to the Ued Uiver? — Yes ; fine streams. .'7Jti. An; those streams timbered streams, or is there no wood: -There i; a fair quantity of wood along the rivers. ■i7.'7. What timber is it "- — There are oak, elm, biroh, jiin*', and white-wood. 27 jS. ^Vhat is white-wood ? — It is something like poplar. 27 jy. ^Vhat are the other natural vegetable ^ oduclions "f the country ; w.'^t is the nature of ihe grass .' —Timothy grass grows, I think, rid other kinds. 2730. Is it a country which will naturally support cattle r — Yes. 2731. May can be cut.- -Yes. 2732. Cattle can live there in the winter r -Yes. They have only to cut their hay; they have not to make it by turiuiig it over, and so on, ''ut have siuijily to cut it down and let it remain one or two days, and then go and collect it in. 2733. Is it m'cessary to house cattle in the winter: — No, not the whole of the time. They hou^o them at night, but not by day. 2734. We have heard something of the fit ids in that country, are they of fr<'(|uent occurrence ?— A flood hud occurred previously to my arrival ; but I believe they rarely take jilace. I think there have been only two or three flootls there since I have had any knowledge of the country. Since the for- mation of Red Uiver Settlement, there have been only one or two floods. :.'73--,. Of course the floods occur in the spring time ? — Yc; •J73O. Has there been any extraordinary fall of snow i; r! winter when then' has been a flood- — I believe that has not been generally noticed; they cannot attribute tlie cause solely to the larger quantity of snow ; sometimes it has been stated to be the case. 2737. Mr. Gordon.'^ Do not large numbers of the settlers and half-breeds go to St. Paul's for their suiijilies, instead of getting goods out, via Hudson's Bay, by th(! Company's ships ? — Yes. 2738. What is the cause of that?— The dissatisfaction which they feel at present with the Hudson's Bay C!ompany's system. 27 ;y. Hut why should that dissatisfaction make them seek their supplies at St. Paul's- -lU-causc they cannot get supplies at a reasonable rate by the lluiison's Bay route. 2740. Why r — They have again and again asked the Hudson's Bay Company, as far as 1 have been given tn understand by the settlors themselves, to improve the inland communication up to Y'ork Factory by Lake Winnipeg, The interruptions only cover a distance of about 400 miles ; the other 400 miles might be navigated by a little steamboat, over Lake Winnipeg, whicl! is t>-j. S3 a lake M: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE VH m*^ mt \$m ■ A.mw: i ■ lis iiiii m' V H 5 March 1857. Rev. G. O. Corbeti. a lake 300 miles in length. They have again and again told me that they have asked the Hudson's Bay Comp.my to improve the inland communication. They have c.xpre.ssed a willingness to pay a small tax to the Hudson's Day Company for so doing, but the Hudson's Bay Company have not done so. One attempt I believe was made by them at one time to some extent, because the i)eo()le became so very clamorous upon the subject, but they failed in carry- ing the thing out to completion ; and the people now say, " We cannot ask for any further improvement ; we will go down to the United States of America and get up our things." Hence, perhaps, 200 carts and men, and horses and oxen, are united together, and formed into a large party ; they cross the plains and they travel not much less than 1,400 miles backwards and forwards, and expose themselves to great danger and peril, in order to get their supplies at a reasonable rate in lied River Settlement. I came over with a party numbering 200 carts altogether. 2741. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is, from St. Paul's?— To St. Paul's, from Red River. 2742. Mr. Gordon.] You have stated that the settlers have made representa- tions, and petitioned for an improvement in the communication between York Factory and Red River : have they ever done so with reganl to Lake Superior ; do they think it possible to improve that route ? — There is no interruption all the way from Red Rivei to the north-western boundary on Lake Winnipeg ; it is all clear open water ; so that the Hudson's Bay Company might at this very hour have steambcts, or better means of conveying supplies up from that lake into the Red River, and the goods might be taken from York Factory to the entrance of the lake. 2743. Have you travelled that country ? — No, I have not travelled on the lake. 2744. Surely there is evidence that that route is very much interrupted by rapids and other obstructions ? — Not the whole route, only a part of it. 274.<). What makes you give so decided an opinion as that? — From constant intercourse with the people upon this very subject, because it has become a matter of iiublic debate in the country. 274r). What route would that follow ; not that, I suppose, from Lake Winnipeg down the rivers ; I am speaking of the route by Lake Superior : I understood you to say that there was no difficulty in that route, which rather surprised me ? — I meant the other route ; but as to the difficulties between Red River and Lake Superior, I am tcIJ that they are by no means insurmountable. I have recently had a letter from a gentleman on the banks of lied River, who has conversed with a retired chief factor of the Hudson's Bay Company upon the subject. 2747. Do you obtain with ease supplies for the use of your station from the forts of the Company ? — Even if the Company were willing to furnish us with our supplies (and we are not sure cf that) we could not get a sufficient quantity. For example, in the article of tea there is not always a sufficient stock kept in the country. 1 have a letter in my hands, in which the gentleman says, " You will imagine the panic we ara all in at the probability of there not being a ship ; the rjal or isupposed straits we shall all be in ; and the plans proposed for a partial supply of tiie wants and necessities of this singularly situated people, dependent on one ship. Oh the casualty, the risk, the uncertainty ! — but so it is. Pray God for us, that we may not this year feel the sad experience of so serious a state of th'ngs consequent on such inadequate means of supply. But it looks gloomy at present ; everything is out ; all the stores are bare, and were it not for what the importers from the States brought in, there would now be little or nothing for the people's use." 2748. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What is the date of that letter?— September the 24th, 18.j5. 2749. ^^•'- /'«"'''-] !)'> you object to give the name of the gentleman who wrote it?— The same gentleman. 2750. The Rev. Mr. Taylor ?— Yes. 275 1. Mr. Gordon.'] The Company sell goods to you, do they not ? —Yes, some things. 2 7.';2 Is tiiere a regular tariff at their forts by which you know the fixed piicc for good> eoiuitig from Europe-- The agent at the fort tells us that he has not a la\etl tarill himself, LlierLforc we cannot get it. There are certain things SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 143 things which are fixed ; for example, for salt we have to pay 1 *. a quart ; Rev. O. 0. Corbett. and for sugar, 1 *. a jjound ; and for rice, 1 *. a pound ; that is fixed. jj/jj. Then there is a fixed tariff for some articles, but not for others? 6 March 1857. -Yes. 2754. Mr. Edward Ellice.] But all those things are also brought in by the community from the States ? — Not English salt, that comes from England. 2755. Is there any obstruction to their being brought in ? — Recently, since the large caravans have come in from the States, they have imported all they have required. 2756. Is there any obstruction on the part of the Company to the bringing in of those things if the people choose to do so ? — I think there is none on the ])arl of the Company in bringing goods in from the United States, with the exception of efforts recently to put on a very heavy import duty. :^757. What import duty ? — I have been informed they proposed 10 or 20 per cent. 2758. Do you mean the Hudson's Bay Company r — Yes. '2759. For what purpose was that duty put on '! — I think ostensibly for the improvement of the roads. 2760. As you say ostensibly, have you any reason to suppose that it is turned to any other purpose, whatever the duty may be? — I will just state a circum- stance, if you will allow me, which will illustrate the case. •2761. Just answer ray question first ; you may state the circumstance after- wards. Have you any reason to suppose that that money is appropriated to any other purpose than that for which it is stated to be raised ? — I cannot always say how money is approjjriated. 2762. Why do you say "ostensibly" ?— For this reason, because from Fort Garry, the seat of government, in a southern direction down to the boundary line, there is no improvement of the roads whatever 2763. Mr. Roebuck.^ Do they improve the roaas ? — By no means in that direction ; because the settlers with whom I travelled held a council, and they debated whether they would pay the import duty or not, and they said, " Tlie roads are not improved ; we are obliged to make our own bridges as we cross ; we are obliged to wade across with our carts ; we will not pay the import duty." That was the resolution which was passed. 2764. Mr. Edward Ellice] Have you ever heard that the Hudson's Bay Company pay for their own goods to that same ostensible fund, the same duty that is charged upon goods coming in from America? — I think the Hudson's Bay Company get their supplies chiefly from Hudson's Bay. 276.5. 1 ask you whether the company pay upon their own imports by Hud- son's Bay the same duty that they ;'iiarge upon the imports from the American frontier r— They may do so, but I have had no fact to show it. 2766. Have you ever heard the circumstance of their hpifing done so? — No; they may do so ; I have no doubt but what they comply with those rules. 2767. You know that there are rules ? — There may be rules ; at least the party with wi <)m I travelled said tiiat they would have to pay so much for importing their ovv 1 supplies. 2765. You said that the Company complied with the rule? — I have not said that they actually did ; but that I liad no doubt they did. 2769. Have you any reason to believe that the rule applies to the Company as well as to those parties with whom you travelled ; do you believe that that rule is a common one ? —I am nut aware how the Company act with reference to these rules at all. 2770. Do you know thfit those rules apply to the Company ; I am not talkinro is rlso a garrison there. 2707. Mr. Edward Ellicn.] That fort is not occupied in winter, is it? — It is occupied all the year round ; i camped there myself; I slept there two or three nights. 2798. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Is it a military post ?— There are a garrison and a fur post, and a settlement of Indians and half-breeds there. I believe some of them have gone over the frontier from Red River. 2791). Mr. Gordon.] How far is Pembina from Red River ? — Seventy or eighty miles from the seat of Oovernment. 2800. But from the boundary line "^ — It is as close as possible to the boundary line. 2801. Do you know whether any facilities for settlement are afforded near the frontier by the United States at the present time r — I believe they are giving every facility. When I came down I found gentlemen from America up as far as Otter-tnil Lake making claims, and thence as far up as Pembina. 2802. Where is that ?— I suppose it is 150 miles at least to the north of St. Paul's ; it is a lake well marked upon the map, I think. 2803. .Mr. Charles FitziviUiam.] Is it another St. Peter's, or on the Mississippi ? — It empties its waters into the Red River, I believe. 2S04. Mr. Lowe-] Is it or.*., of the head waters of the Red River r — Yes, one of the sources. 280/5. Mr. Gordon.] Have you, during your stay at the Red River, known parties of settlers, with whom you were personally acquainted, leave the Red River for the United States or elsewhere, from dissatisfaction with the Govern- ment r— I met with a gentleman at St. Paul, Mr. Doll, a stationer and bookseller at St. Paul, who has a flourishing business, and he told me that, from the inconveniences which he had found at the Red River Settlement, and the discouragements thrown in his way, he had left ; but he is now doing well at St. Paul ; other parties also have left. 2806. To your own knowledge ? — Yes. 2807. Mr. Edward Eliice.\ What had Mr. Doll been at the Red River r^ 1 believe a portion of tiie time he had been in the Hudson's Bay Company's service. 2808. What was the discouragement which he met with? — The usual dis- couragements experienced by people in the colony. 2809. Mr. Gordon.] What are they ? — The difficulties they have of getting tlieir goods ; the difficulty of getting representations from the colony, &c. &c. 2810. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What do you call "representations from the i'( ' ly"? — The pe()|)le think that they ought to have a voice in representing lii> .; grievances ; that, in short, there should be a represen<^ative government in the colony. ! I "J. I I ! i "••;.•). l46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■rv^ Lunm, 0* die Martii, 1867. MEMBERS PRE.9ENT. Mr. Bell. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. EdwMrd Bllice. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam. Mr, Gordon. Mr. Oregson. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Liabouchere. Sir John Pakington. Lord Jol'.n Rusieil. Viscount Sandon. Lord Stanley. Thb Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCKERE, in the Chair. ■i'l'' J ;5.i I. Vj MM Hi' • fHi The Rev. Griffith Owen Corbett, called in ; and further Examined. UcT. G. O. Cerbett. 28 1 1 . Mr. Gordon.] HAVE you ever travelled in company with the American fur traders ?— Yes. cj March 1857. 2812. For any considerable distance? — For upwards of 1,000 miles. 2813. Near the frontier? — Yes. 2814. Had you any opportunities of observing their manner of traJinj2r ^^ furs ? — I had opportunities obtained from tenting with tliem ni.;ht after night, and camping near their forts on the western route from Minesota up to lied River, and on the eastern route from Red River down to Crow Wing. 281,5. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is in the American territory : — Y'es. 2816. Mr. Gordon.] Did you ever see tlicm engaged 11 trading for the furs • — Not a great deal. 2817. Did you ever see them make use of spirits as a means of barter for furs? — No ; I never saw any spirits among any of them. 2818. Have you reason then to believe that spirits are not used by them as a means of barter • — I ntver saw a drop of spirits in any of their camps or tents, but I have heard the Honourable N. \V. Kitson, the representative of Minesota, remonstrate against the use of spirits as used on the northern side of the boundary line. 2819. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Wliom did he remonstrate with ? — He lias remonstrated in the presence of the camp. 2820. But with whom r — I cannot say that he has remonstrated with any individual in particular ; but he has expressed himself in very indignant ti:rnis in my presence. 2821. Mr. Gordon.] Whom did he remonstrate against ?— Against the Hud- son's Bay Company's fur trailers. 2822. Mr. Edward Ellice.} How did the vemonstrance aiise ? -He spoke of the increasingly large quantity, as he represented it, of rum whieli was employed amongst the Indians, and he spoke of the demoralising effects. 2823. Where ?- -On the frontier. 2824. Mr. Gordon.] Has anything ever come under your own persional inspection of the demoralising effects of ardent spirits on the Indians ? — Yes. 282.'). Mr. Edward Ellice.] Who is that .Mr. Kitson that you spoke of?— He is, I believe, the representative for the Minesota territory. ■2ii2(). Is he not a trader on the frontier in ojjposition to the Hudson's Bay Company r — I cannot say that he is engaged in opposition to the Hudson's Hay Company. 2827. Do you know that he is not ?— I do not think that he is a fur trader in opposition to the Company. 2S28. I/O vou not know that Mr. Kitson is a trader in co'npi'tition with the Company ?— He is a trad r, I believe, in the Minesota territory, in connexio.i with the fur-trjvding Company in that country. 2Sj(). Is Mr. Kitson at lied River as well as in the American territory -—He does not reside at Re I River, I believe. •j^.^o. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 147 2S30. Do you know whether he frequents Red River ?— He visits Red River Rev.G. O. Corb»i(. backward.s and forwards, I believe, as often as he accompaoies the mail up — from Minesota towards Red Uiver. g March 1857. ■-'831. Have you not reason to believe that Mr. Kitson is a trader in com- petition with the Hudson's Bay Company, not only in the American territory but in the territory as far north as Red River f — Not on the British side. I do not think it at all. 283'J. Do you know what his occupation at Red River is when he is there? — The most, I believe, that I have heard respecting his visits at Red River is i'833. Just answer the question; do you know what his business is when he goes so frcquf ntly to Red River ; why does he go there ? — I believe that he has relatives at Red River, and that he visits tht^e relatives; and he takes an interest in forwarding goods, and letters, and mails up to Red River^ and visits Red River ; and the people of Red River take an interest in all his visits as a consequence. •2834. Do not you know that he trades there r — He may privately enter into arrangements for that, but I have no fact before me to prove it. 2835. Mr. Gordon.] Do you believe that he trades in furs there ? — I do not believe that he trades in furs on the British territory. 2836 Have you seen any instances of the use or abuse of spirituous liquors in dealings for furs by the agents of the Company ? — I have seen Indians intoxi- cated within the gates of the Upper Fort Garry. 2837. What reason have you to suppose that that liquor came from the Company r — It must have come from the fort ; there is no other source for it within the immediate vicinity of the fort ; and I have seen Indians in their encampments, in the neighbourhood of the furt, in a state of intoxication, and so wild that I myself have ridden out of my way to be secure in travelling. 2S38. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Where ? — In the neighbourhood of Fort Garry. 2839. Were you encamped there ? — No ; I have passed by them. 2840. Mr. Gordon.] Could not they have procured those spirits from the settlers ? — They may have obtained a little from some of them ; and very likely some of the settlers use rum as well as the Company. 2841. Mr. Edward Ellice.] There are grog-shops there, are there not? — Not that I am aware of. 2842. Not in Red River?- Not in Red River. 2843. Do you know Mr. Fhilip Kennedy? — Yes. 2844. Does not he keep a grog-shop ?— He never did when I was at the Rapirts, and I resided close to his residence; there was no grog-shop there then, nor the slightes t appearance of grog. I have seen Indians "ntoxicated in my own district ; there was a case that happened in my own district. 'J845. Mr. Gordon.] Is it within your personal knowledge r — Yes. I had left my own station, and after returnmg to it, I found that a woman and children had left their cottage, and taken refuge underneath our own roof. I inquired •the reason of it, and they told me that it was hecause they had been excluded from their own dwelling. I then went to the husband, and inquired the cause of it, and he said the cause was this, that the Indians and half-breeds, on returning from the fort of the Company, at Fort Garry, after ': 'ing taken down their furs, sfught admii->ion into his warm room to warm diemselves ; and after staying to warm them&eives a little they then began to hand round the rum. •JS46. Mr. Edward Ellue..] Who did? — The Indians and half-breeds inside this cottage ; and after drinking the r\xv". for some time they came to high words, and from higli words they came to i/iows, and a regular fight took place ; and so dreadful was this fight that the man said he did r"t ':.i s<'' more children to the school r — 1 referred 'o th'=^ effe( s of tin Lite wui in tilt Crimea ujion nocietics in depressing their fun;' >. 28,54. Mr. Charles FitzwilliaiH. J You have tnvfelled up the Rtu River, have you not ? — Yes. 2855. Are there many small titresuns running into it on either side?— There are a great many on the westt rn route ; on the westerr side of the lied If 'v;,', niid numerous strennis on the eastern side. ,i856. You have trav> 'led on both sides f — Yes. •iS,';?- 1-. ' nuaiiy sue!, .streams are there from the m'ulh i>f the river at ■. ';e Winiiipv'ji; (0 ihr boundary line r — I should think thare .ire 2(» or 30. 28^1'-'. Thi'^ isi in a diiu arc not prejjar' l to substantiate that allegation will you withdraw 4t? — I ;j)ly express my nni.rc sion ti>)m what has been said in the country ; tiiiil i- .11 that 1 can sjiy upon the subject. I repeal, the charge has not been Ji(i(hiced by me. 288(1. Had you ever anv fear yours If of your letters being opened? — I really («) t>ee Question l8y5 in Sir (ieorge S?ini.)son's Evitlence. 0.25. T 3 i^H w Letter uf Mr. R. Lane. 150 MINUTI'S OP EVIDRNCfi TAKEN BEFORE THE n«v. 0. 0. Corftrt/. really have had BUi;h fear that i obtained a special stamp for my own Ifttors. 9 Murcli 1857. 2SS7. What do you eall " a speciai stamp " ?— One with my own initials, &c. 2S.S8. Chainnnn.] Has any case ever come to yonr knowledge iu which it was clearly proved that a letter had been thus opened ? — No. Sir ./. liicharition, c. B. m\ m m Sir Jdhn Richtmkon, c.n., called in ; and Examined. 288;). Chairman.] WFIAT opportunities have you had of becoming ac- quainted with that portion of British North America which is under the ad- ministration of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I have made three several journeys throutrh it, and have resided altogether in the country about seven years during those journeys. 2890. Have you only known it in your capacity as a traveller ? — In no other capacity. 2891. Have vou never been connected with the Hudson's Bay Company in any manner i — In no manner as a servant, or paid in any way by the Hudson's Bay Company ; I had some share in the Hudson's Bay stock at one time, which is now transferred. 2892. You are not a proprietor at this moment? — lam not a proprietor, although I have a life interest in a few shares. 2893. Under what circumstances were the journeys that you allude to under- taken ? — I went out first in 1819 with Sir John Franklin, and we travelled from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, and from thence to (ireat Slave Lake, and down the Copper Mine Hiver to the Arctic Sea, and then back again by nearly the same route ; that was the first journey, which occupied three and a half year.s. 2894. What was the second journey ? — The second journey was in 1825 ; I went out by the way of New York, and tiavelled by Montreal, Ljike Huron, Lake Superior, Fort William, Winnipeg, Churchill River, Athabasca, Great Slave Lake, and on to Great Bear Lake, upon the Mackenzie. Then I descended the Mackenzie River and travelled to the eastward along the coast to the Copper Mine River, which I ascended, /tnd came back to Cireat Bear Lake I returned homewards by the snme route, except that I diverged at Isle k la Cro>se over the prairies to Carlton House, and descended the Saskatchewan frt n thence to Cumberland House. 2895. Mr. Kdtvard Ellice.] How long did that occupy.' — I was two and a half years in the country upon that occasion. 2896. Chainnan.] Will you describe your third journey ? — The third journey was in 1848 and 1849 ; I went out to starch the coast for Sir John Franklin ; I made very nearly the same journey that I did upon the second occasion, only the route through the United States was different. 2897. Were you ever on the west side of the Rocky Mounti'ns ? — I have never been on the west side qf the Rocky Mountains. 2898. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee any general opinion which you have formed '>f the capabilities of any considerable portion of the country which you have travei.<»ed, for the purposes of settlement and colonisation ? — With regard to the production of cereals, wheat may be grown uj) to the 58th parallel of latitude, in favourable places, but oidy in parts. 2899. Mr. Edward Ellice] Probably you will tell us the general aspect of the territory, taking it as a whole. It has bof;n stated here that it is divided into three distinct (livisions .- — In giving a general ide.i of so extensive a country, I should take the Rocky Mountain chain as a iiu Icus of the description. Its peaks rise from 1 2,U00 to 1 5,()()() feet above the level of the sea ; on the eastward it has an inclined base of about 1 M) miles wide, composed of sandstone, and lying 8,000 feet above the sea ; then there is a sloping prairie land from GOO to 800 miles wide, cillcd rolling prairie, on which there are some bluffs b\it no peaks and no hills of any note ; thnt 's mostly grass land ; thea there is a tract of rocky country, extremely uneven, but n<>' rising very high, aliout 200 miles wide, h.unding a chain of lakes which sep^irates it generally I'ruiu the prairie luml, .dthough there is a little wooily coui; 1 tervening between these lakes an I the prairie; ll-cii there is a very uneven c'.iiu 'if equal width descending to Hudson's Bay, partly Hmestone ; all that 20an] Is that the district of the Great l^akesf — The district of the Great Lakes' iun^^ auout south-west from the mouth of the .St. Lawrenc , 9 "''"■'■■n •*'67- and does not interfere with it ; tlie district of which 1 have heen spcakiu)^ is separated from that of the Great l,ak'?s hy an elevated rocky ridf^e, not nearly 80 high as the Rocky Motmtains, hut hy a ridge in which the jjass over which the Hudson's Bay Company travel to the nortli, and wliicli, I suppo-se to he well chosen, is 820 feet nbnve the level iif Lake Superior, which itself is about 640 feet above the sea; the pass is i)robahly about 1,400 feet altogether above the level of the sea. The summit of the vatershed at Thousand Islands Lak(! is 40 or 50 miles from Lake Superior in a direct line, and the much longer and circ'itous canoe route rises at least 800 feet within the 50 miles. 290 1. Mr. Edward Ellice.~\ [s that territory divided; we have had it in evi- dence that it is divided into the barren grounds, the thickwood, and the prairie country ? — The prairie country is grassy, and extends, as I have said, from the inclined base of the Rocky Mountains for COO or 800 miles to the eastward ; nex; comes the wooded limestone country in the middle pnrt of the Saskatchewan, a very flat country, in which the stone is very near the surface, and there is very little soil. In faci, »n some parts there is almost no soil ; in others there is a considerable quantity ^f marshy alluvial soil collected upon the banks of the river, flooded almost evt'^y spring ; indeed I have seen the whole country almost under water for many miles on each side of the Saskatchewan. Then going on northwards, and crossing a very slight elevation of land at the Frog Portage, you enter upon the valley of the Mississippi or Chuichill River, which crosses the country from west to ea^t, and flows into Hudson's Bay, a narrow valley ; but after crossing the Methy Portage, in about latitude 56 degrees, there is a descent for about 1,200 miles to the Northern Ocean, down which the Mackenzie flows on nearly a north-west course. From latitude 61 degrees, on Hudson's Bay, a little to the north of Chun-hill Tort, to the .north end of Great Bear Lake, in latitude 67 degreps, there is a line beyond which the woods do not extend; the nortli -'."stern corner of the continent contains no wood whatever, and is totally barren; it will not produce grain uniler any circumstances, nor any kind of vegetable food for man, except lichens. u'()02. In those three districts, assuming them to be the barren ground, the thickwood, and the prairir country, will you give us your opinion of the relative capability for the settlement or abode of Europeans :— If, under the name -1 "settlement," is meant the means of subsistence > i.ply, I think that a con- siderable population might subsist as high as Peace River upon the alluvial points and the skirts of the prairie land, but if it is to be a produti*;'? or pro- gressive colony, I think that there are no means, and that there are not likely to be any means of producing a flourishing colony without some market or some conveyance for the grain ; they would only raise grain enough to support theinse'.ves, but could not export grain withouf better roads than exist at ])resent ; a railroad from Canada, if such a thing could be constructed, might offer an outlet, but until the settlement of Canada has advanced close to tho Red River, I do not think that any wise settler would go beyond that place, there being so much better land much nearer the market to be had at a very moderate rate. L'jjoj. We hear that the limestone prevails in a considerable part of that prairie country and also to the northward of Lake Superior ; limestone is gen rally a fertilizing agent ; in that country do you think it can be made «■> : • - The limestone which jirevails all along the west bank of Lake Winnipeg, and from thence up to Cumberland House and on to the Riviere Maligne at Beaver Lake, is not a fertile limestone ; it contains a large quantity of magnesia, which is generp'ly thought to be very injurious to agriculture ; the greater portion of it is magnesian, and very near the su face, a great part of it being quite naked, with no soil at all ; and cultivation at Cumberland House, which is a post which has been estab'v '1 for a very loii'^ ,.eriod, has extended in a very small de^M-ee ; ther^ ..ly a few fitlds roi lul that post which have been found productive. 21)04. Have _,.ju evi z travelli,'d Ijy land on the northern shore of Lake Superior between Saut :>l. Marie and Fort Wil'wui.'-l ha\»' been four times along that coast in passing to and tVuiu Cunada. 0.2,5. T ^ 290,5. What ;ijt«/J •fil'S ■ i.-ia MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKKN HKFORE TFIE ^v Sir 7. Richardson, 9 March 1857. 2pov Whnt ii» the clmriictor of thi' ((Mintry tlicr"?— It ia very hilly, very rocky ; it is montly jjinmitivo rock ; that is to suy, >jranit«> and porpiiyry witli some conglonitTalcs, jcthmss, and talcosi' slat»'« ; it is a \cry hilly covintry, witii deep valleys and very pn-cipitoiis elitt's. apoti. Ih there anythinn in that coimtn whieh you tliink temptintj or hene- fieiai to a settler r — There are a few alitiviai |K)ints at the mouths of the rivers whieh flow into Like Superior wliieii would Ite pmduetive, hut the fjreater part of the country which one sees in passinu: aloiij? L-ike Superior is entirely desti- tute of soil. 1 he tires have spread, and destroytd the trees, and hurnt up the soil, so that the naked rock is the most prevailing tiling over a great portion of that district. There are some parts which are still covered tliiekly with wood, hut I think the i^eneral < haraeter of a very large jjortiou (if the north shore of L-ikc Superior is a naked ■• ' . nUh hut little soil, and very rugge l. 2907. Proceeding W( i ■ i >[ '" nn '.'ort VVilliani, what is tlui character of the country hetvveen !i( '.v 'st tud ./f Lake Superior and Ldve Winnipeg - — The canoe route, whicn u< ah that 1 know, ascends the Dog Wive r, ahout 50 miles, to Dog I^ke; tLa' is n raj)i(l river, with rich woods on ei 'h side, and there is some eiipal)ility of producing grain on the hanks of the river ; hut at Dog Lake the land is elevated ; it is l,;i(i(» feet above the sea, and the season is very late ; the ice does not break up till the end of May generally. From that the canoe route leads over a rocky country, interpoe^ef' 'iv very numerous lak«'s and grassy swamps. •2;)oH. Is tiiere anything in thai (;ountry whicih has particular capabilities for a settler r - I saw no spots which would teiijjt a settler there. 2ni> ). Were you at Rainy Lake? — I jxissed through Rainy Lake. 2011' Wiiat is the character of Rainy Laker — The banks of Rainy I-ake are of a \ii I ter character ; there being more alluvial soil, and many jjoints on which pvaiii might be ])roduced. I cannot speak to any great extent of country away fiinri tlie canoe route ; I only saw it on each side for a few miles. 1 think that many of the points might jjroduce grain. 2011. You say that you were various times in the Sa.skatchewan ; without going to particular points, taking the general character of the banks of the River Saskat, cwan, what are its capabilities as regards settlement ? — Of all the lower part below Cumberland House, 1 think there are only two or three points which would maintain a family of farm. rs; there is no place which I saw that w«)uld maintain a colony of any size. 1 think three or four fartt rs might occupv the whole of the points tluit are prodiu'tive. 1 lielieve that .^ir. Leitli, \^ ho lilt a sum of money to foun.l a church for the benefit of the natives of that district, and who wished to collect them into a village, found only one spot whi(;h was available for that ])urpose. 2pi2. That was near For^ ''umberland, was it not?— It was at the Pas, some distance below I'ort Cumberland ; but the whole of that country about the Pas is intersected by lakes, and in t\a' sjjring and a gieat part of the sununer it is underwater; it is very level. Althiugh the limestone comes near the surface, the country is easily fl.eaver Lake, ui latitude 55 degrees, and following the valley of the Mississippi • Isle -k la Crosse in latitude 56 degrees ; but the mean limit may be consi- dered as 55 degrees. There is j)ermanent ice at York Factory, a very thick b((i of it, which is never thawed ; south of Fort Chipewayan it runs across to the Koi ky Mountains ; then, upon the other side of the Rocky Mountains it is deflected afuin to the south ; the lines 'lo not run in parallels of latitude, they run oblitjuely across. :i<)23. Has there come under your observation at all the relative degree of frost in the same parallel in the open country and in the wooded country ?— In the immediate neighbourhood of trees, whtre one could observe the difference between an open plain and woods, the thaw always commenced over the roots of the trees first. 2924. But with regard to the frost itself, is the frost less severe wliere ft has the protection of wood or otherwise ?— The frost caused by the winter does not penetrate so deep in the woods as it does in the open country ; but that is a distinct kind of ice ; the permanent ice that I speak of is beyond the reach of the alternation of the seasons ; it is the result of the mean temperature, and the thickness to which the frost penetrates in the winter and is thawed in the summer is a distinct thing. 2925. It has been suggested here, that the clearance of wood would mitigate the severity of the climate in these countries. In ('anada, or in places which have been cultivated, is the winter frost less severe in the open country than in the wood country ?— My observations were not carried on with that view, so as to give a decided opinion with regard to what occurred in that country ; but observations elsewhere, in our own country, show that when the wood has been cleared away the climate has deteriorated. In the Orkneys, and in many parts where you cannot get u tree to grow now, there is evidence that at a 0.25. U previous Sir J. Riehtrdicm, c. B. ft March 1837. I ■ • 'i' 1 ^' i 1 ' V,' r. II' : ; ; j !;, ■\\\.', in' §|:i . ' t ' ■ '■ i h "i * , 1 ^iij: 1 ,i ! ; l^- ■'' i 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE T\KEN BEFORE THE SW J. niekardson. provious period trceH grew abundantly ; they an^ found in every bog ; the cli- <■•»• matr ha* drlcrioniti'd ; I will not \)v poMiiivi; an to tiie caustj. 2936. ^^hat waH the length of the winter at the ditt'erent poHta, say Fort 9 March 1867. Franklin, York, Fort Liard and Fort Simpson ?— I did not wintev at York Faetorj'. 2<)27. Take any Hpota whieh you know ? —At Fort Franklin, on the ( Vpiit Hear Lake, the wint«'r may be said to be ten months, counting from the ij' 1 1 n uw to the disanjM'arance of the ice and the snow again. •igaS. What itt the difference between the mean annual heats of summer and winter in the same degrees of latiliiile in EurojH! and in North America r— A* a general answer to that question, I should say that Europe has the advantage over the mean heat «)f America of nine degrees of latitude ; but that answer will not extend across the Ameriuan continent ; upon the west bide of the llocky Mountains, the temperature is greater than to the eastward, so that the mean temperature at Fort Vancouver exceeds the mean temperature at New York in the United States. •2929. That is to say if is milder ? — Ves. 2930. Chairman.] How is the mean tL-mperature of the western coast of North America, as compared witli the mean temperature of Europe in similar latitudes? — The mean temperatuie on the west coast of America is lower than that of Europe, but higher than that of the east coast of America. 2931. How much lower than that of Europe.' — Fort Vancouver probably would be equal to two degrees of latitude, that is to say, its mean temperattire. 2932. Mr. Edward Kllicr.] 1 believe it is a fact that in Europe the vine, for instance, grows in the parallel of .')! degrees • — I Iwlieve the northern limit for the profitnl)le cultivation of th<' vine in Europe is in the valley of the Rhine. 2933. And in America it is nt 4li degrees? — In America there is no vine growing naturally Ijcyond 43 degrees. 2934. In a great part of this territory of which you are speaking, the trees in winter are frozen to the heart, are they not ? — They are frozen throughout the whole country, more or less, in the middle of winter ; but upon the Mackenzie the largest trees are frozen to the heart. 293,1- Therefore in breaking wood for fuel, or anything else, you have to u«e particular instruments for the purpose ? —The hatchets require to be peculiarly tempered ; the European hatchet breaks immediately when it is attempted to be used for that purjiose. 2936. You having been in that country at diflferent periods, occupying a long series of years, I supj)<>se you have had some opportunity of judging of the iiirtueiice of tlm Hudson's Buy Company over the population of that territory ; will you tell us what your opinion of it is ? — The best way, 1 think, of answering that ((uestion would be to describe what I saw when I first went out. In 1819, when I accompanied Sir John Franklin out upon his first expedition, the two companies, which were then opposed to each other, the Hudson's Hay Company and the Norl'.i-West Company, were at war. Landing at York Kaetory we found several of the members of the North- West Company prisoners in the fort ; they htid been captured shortly before we arrived there. One of them, a Mr. Frobisher, escaped with some men and perished ; he died for want of food in attempting to make his escape. There had been a fight previously at Red River, in which 2 1 people and the governor were killed ; and 1 think 14 or 15 wer.^ starved to death upon the Peace River in consequence of the contest. Th.it was the state of the country when we went in. U'e found both pfirties supplying the Indians liberally with spirits. The Indians were spending days in dr:mkenness at the different posts, and a contest altogether shocking to humanity was carried on. At that time it scarcely appeared that the Indians had any capability t)f being civilised at all. ^Vhen we went out upon the second occasion, the Hudson's Bay Company having the sole trr>/'e of the country, and the sole management of the Indians, there was an improvement ; spirits were no longer carried to the north, or they were carried in small (juantities then. I think that at that time the tr.itlers themselves were supplied with a little spirits for their own use ; but there was a manifest improvement, although none of the natives of pure blood had become Christians. The missionaries had been out for two or three years, but had made no progress beyond converting one or two of the half-caste Indians, I believe. Upon tiie last occasion in 1848 a generation of the Crees had passed "away, SELECT CO MM SELECT rOMMITTRE ON THE flUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ir,S away, "i-'i yearn having «'Iaps«'«l, niul tlin new generation wore mofltly nble to Sir J. Riekarj* <, rem! und write (all tliose tliat I eaine in contact with); many of them were *^-"- lubouring for wnp«'rt for the lIudson'K Hay ('oiiipany, and altogether the country — — — - waH peaceuhh' fnan one end to the other. I Haw no riot and nothing un- '^ Mtrch iljy. pleasant throughout the whole jniirney. Tlie IndiaiiH, in speaking of theCom- pnny, do not Hjjpak of lhen\ in the aliHtraiit ; tliey talk of the different gentle- men at the po.stM, and the individual character of the gentleman has a great deal to do with their opinions ; if he is liberal and kind to them they Hpeak highly of him. As far an I could judge they seemed well pleased with their condition. 1 heard no great complaints, except the complaint which Indians always make, that they are poor, for the purpose of receiving presents ; but a largt! number of their young men were then employed in .the Company's boats, and working for very good wages. We had to pay those whom we emi)Ioycd for the service of the expedition wages which would be thought very good ill this country, at tlie rate of .MO /. a year besides feeding them. •2();^7. i'/iairman.\ From what part of the country did those Indians come ? — I speak of the Crees and the Nortlicrn Indiana. •j()38. I refer to the jjarfy of Indians that you employed in your canoes on your journey r- The crews of the canoes were partly Iroquois and partly Crees or Chippeways ; we also employed the Northern Indians almost throughout the whole length of their country. 2o,](). Did you pay thenx all in money wages? — We paid the Northern Indians l>y orders iipon the ('onii)any ; money did not pass. 2()40. Were they ultimately i)aid in money, do you suppose ? — I do not know for certain ; 1 believe they ])ay in goods in tlie north ; I do not know that the Indians know the value of money ])roperly there; they reckon by beavers; a beaver has a certiun money value ; and they are paid by so many beavers. 2941. Do not the Indians nearer to the settled districts know the value of money? — I think they know the value of money very well at Red River. Those from Hed River that we saw were paid in money, and the Iroquois and Chippeways that came from the south were j)aid in money. 294'i. Mr. Edward Kllice.] While you were there, did you hear any com- plaints of the rule of the Comiiany being oppressive } — I heard no complaint of that. . I had conversations with some of the half-castes from Red River that we employed ; and they told me that they had a rij^ht to the country in virtue of their i)arentnge, and wished, if they could, to get possession of it. They look upon the exclusive fur trade much as our poachers do upon the game laws in thi.s country, and they wish to have tlie fur trade to themselves. 2943. Do you think, from your ex])i'rience of the matter, that you could suggest any other way of keeping that country (I will not call it governing it), so well as by means of the traders ? — I have thought upon the subject : I think that Canada could not do it, seeing how that government has failed already with the Indians that came under its rule upon Lake Superior. The Chippeways came down in a body the year after we passed down, and destroyed a mining settlement at Mical Bay, without the Canadians being able to prevent it ; that was upon the north side of Lake Superior. 2944. Chairman.] Wlien did that take place? — I think it was in 1849. A regiment was sent up from Canada to 8U))press the foray ; but the Indians vvie gone, and several soldiers died from the severity of tiie climate in going up. 1 was told by an officer who conducted a part of the force that the poor men actually died of the cold in going up to suppress these Indians, who had retired to a distance, and were never seen at all after they had unfortunately destroyed the settlement. 'j •2945. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is there any way which you can suggest of ' : governing that country better than by means of the Company ? — I can suggest | no way : the country I tliink is perfectly quiet under the government of the 1 Hudson's Bay Company at present. I see several objections to annexing it to Canada; in the first place, the Canadians will not pay any of the clergy on 1 v either side ; and as there are both Roman-catholic and Protestant clergy to be ! supported, and they are partly supported by the Hudson's Bay Company, and • t patronised by them, I think that the reiigit is bodies would be in an inferior . condition if the country were anjiexed to Canada, and that the missionary service would suffer. If the Imperial Government were to take the country into ,! i, its own hands-, I think there would be an immense staff of magistrates, and 0.2.5. u 2 people 'A i-l ■■ 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C.B. a March 1857. W.J} I J' m^--' 5 M '•!;■ -i ,f ■ ■ " I - ' !■ ■ ' W Sir J. Richardton, people to feed them, to he scattered over that very thinly peopled country, otherwise they could neither subsist in it nor govern it. I look upon it that the opening o^ the trade would bring in rival parties ; and from what I saw formerly I cannot doubt but that the same scenes would recur which I witnessed in 1819 and 1820. 2946. You have spoken of the means of living. I think you wintered for two or three years in the country : can you give us an idea of how you lived in any one of those winters ; of course you were kept in the best way that you could be ? — We lived in different districts in the different winters : in the winter of 1819-20, when I accompanied Sir John FrankUn, we lived at the Hudson's Bay Post, upon the Saskatchewan, at Cumberland, and were fed by the Company, principally upon fish, and partly on meat ; but the next winter, of 1820-1821, we lived upon the verge of the barren grounds, where there are reindeer, and we fed upon the reindeer and upon such fish as the small lakes yielded. 2947. Sir./. Pakington.'] Where was that? — At Fort Enterprise, some dis- tance north of the Great Slave Lake. 2948. Mr. Edwa7-d £ like.] Had you any farinaceous food or vegetables ? — We had none whatever ; no vegetables of any description. 29^9. Nor flour ? — Nor flour; and we lived that year entirely in the same precarious way that the Indians themselves did ; towards the spring frequently passing two or three days without anything to eat at all. 2o,';o. Mr. Bd/.] In what latitude was that r — It was in 64 degrees, 295 1 . Mr. Edward Ellice.'] You wintered one year up at Great Bear Lake, did you not ! — ^'es. 2952. I think there was one winter that you were there when you had hardly anything but fish to live upon ? — We passed an entire winter at Fort FrankUn, almost wholly upon fish ; only in the spring we got a little animal food. 2953. In fact, there were six or seven months in which you tasted nothing but fish r — More than that; 1 should say ve were eight months at least without ta<5ting anything but fish, except a hare occasionally, and a little moose meat towards the beginning of summer. 2954. That may be the fate of any people I suppose who go up to live in that country ? — Any one wintering at the west end of Great Dear Lake would have to depend entirely upon fish. 205,5. Mr. Kiiinairtl.] Is that fish dried or fresh fish ?— It is frozen ; it keeps the whole winter. 2^^('i. Chnirman.'] When you talk c>f transferring the country, do you mean the whole country- — The whole country. 2957. Do you think it would be desirable, if it could be done in an equitable manner, to separate any portion of the country now administered by the Hud- son's Bay Company which would be available for the purposes of colonisation and settlement, having the rest to be managed as mrre hunting ground by the Hudson's Hay Company ?— There is no doubt that the Red Uiver and Vancouver's Island might be separated, but I do not think that settlers would go to the Red River until the j)rogress of settling in Canada had advanced so far. i!9->8. Would there be any harm in making such arrangements as would enable settlers to go there if they wished to go there ?— 1 see no objection to it, provided there is an arrangement made to govern the colony sufficiently. 2;),';9. You mean that if the internal administration of such districts could be sufficiently provided for, you see no difficulty, so far as he Hudson's Bay Company are concerned, in their surrendering the administration of such districts, maintaining their administration over land which was calculated for nothinq: but for the fur trade ? —1 can see no nossible objection to separating the Red River if such is desired, provided a suffieieni number of troops are sent ; there must be a military force, I think, otherw'se it would not be safe. 2960. Why would that be more necessary in the event of a separation than it is now ? — At present the Hudson's Bay Company's influence over the Indians is beneficial ; the natives are dependent upon the Hudson's May Ctnnpany fir supplies : but it they could get sujjplies elsewhere, and if spirits were brought in (for there is nothing which will prevent the introduction of spirits but the nssolution of the Company not to take them in), I think it would require a strong military force to keep the Indians in suhjiction. 2061. You ii ii SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANV. 157 2961. You believe that it would be more difficult to govern that district under something in the shape of an independent government than it is while it forms a part of tlie Hudson's Bay C n i lany's territory ? — It would be more difficult than it is at present, owing to thv. introduction of spirits and the advent of designing people ; throughout Canada, when Indians receive the presentswhich the Imperial Government gives them, they part with them within 24 hours for spirits, contrary to the law, but still the Indian superintendents cannot prevent the people crowding to the neighbourhood and supplying spirits for the blankets and t' ; other presents which the Indians receive from the Government. 29(12. Is it not the case that the settled population at Red River is, upon the whole, a well ordered and moral population ? — I cannot speaking personally ; I have had to do with a number of half castes from Red River who conducted themselves very well in our service ; I believe that two-thirds of that colony consist (if the descendants of Canadian settlers who are hunters ; and from all that I have learnt by reading about it, the remaining third are the descendants of Orkney men and other Europeans, and are the possessors of the property, and the more resident cultivators of the soil, and are well conducted, but I have heard of the half-castes taking the law into their own hands ; I do not know how far it is true. 21)63. Mr. Kinnaird.] I think you have stated that during the last 20 years you have seen a very marked improvement in the Indians ? — Yes ; during the last 29 years a very great improvement, 2()()4. Would not some of those lands which you have described as not suited for Europeans to colonise and settle upon, do for an Indian settlement ? — The Indians do settle ujion the lands as far as they choose ; there is no prohi- bition to that, and whenever they are inclined to form villages they clioose the land where they please at present. 2965. If you have seen such a marked improvement within the last 20 years, do you not think that a. kind of right in the Indian to get it? — 1 he ammunition is a present if the Indian is in want. If he has provisions, they give it for provisions ; if he has ii ciuantity of meat to dispose of, they give ammunition for meat, but if he is destitute he receives it gratuitously. 2995. So that there is a distinction ; they will not sell ammunition for skins, thougli they will for the other Indian products ?— I do not know as to their not beiug willing to sell ; but the fact, I believe, is, that they do not ; as far as I can learn, the Indian never parts with liis skins for ammunition, 2996. Have any instances come within your knowledge in which ammuni- tion has been refused to the Indians for the furs ? — No ; as far as we were concerned ourselves in the expedition, we have been compelled to refuse ammu- nition from not having it to give ; but I think that when ammunition is abun- dant in the trading forts it is never refused. 2997. It is given away gratuitously ? — Provided the Indian is in want and he cannot subsist without it, the Company find themselves bound to support him in some way or another, and give liim ammunition, but it very frequently hap- pens that the ammunition at a post is exhausted. 2998. You have said, " provided the Indian be in want of the ammunition ;" how is the Indian's want of ammunition ascertained ?— What I mean by his being in want is, if he has no pro^isions to dispose of. An Indian, if he has a sueeessfwl hunt, kills more ))rovision than he requires for his own use, and he i)arters it for ammuuuiim. It is a common thing. We frequently purchased geese and fowl and deer from the Indians, and gave them ammunition for them. 2999. I am speaking ixclusively of the establishments of the Hudson's Bay Com])any .' — 1 am merely illustrating the practice. Not having resided at the trading posts of the Hudson's Bay Company for many seasons, I cannot tell whether it is invariably the case or not ; but I was told --^ the country that they never do purchase furs with annnunition. How far that was correct inforina- uon, I cannot say. 3000. My c|uestion was, whether any instances had come within your know- ledge in which ananuniticm had been refused to the Indijins ? — No ; nothing has come under my knowledge as to the nfusal of ammunition. 3001. Lord Stanley.] But it might very well happen that ammunition should be refused to a party of ln32. Was the iippointnient of governor of the south considered promotion, or tlie contrary ? — It was divided between the two ; i do not know whether Governor Williams chose the south in preference or not. 303?. If 1 understand you correctly, a part of your evidence is. that as regards the Red River Settlement and districts about it, there is a considerable trai t cajiable of being brought into colonisation, but the want of a ready com- munication to export the produce is the great drawback ? — The want of co n- niunication; and from what i observed in Canada no settlers will go a great distr.nce from the settled posts ; they creep along more or less rapidly, but a settler does not like to lto into a wilderness away from a neighbourhood ; and there is a large district along the north side of Lake Superior which must be settled before settlers will flock to the Red River. 3034. Mr. Bell.] Is that in Canada or in the Hudson's I'ay territories? — It is in Canada ; I i\o not know exactly the boundary. 3035. Sir J. Pukinglon.'] It is in both, is it not?— The Hudson's Bay Com- pany have posis there; but I suppose it is under the Government of Canada. 303(). Is not the country on the north of Lake Superior, both that part which is in Canada ami that which is in the Hudson's Bay territory, at present wholly unsettled ? — It is not wholly unsettled ; 1 do not know what it is at tiie present moment ; at the time that 1 passed there were five or six mining com- panies located upon it. 3037. At what distance from Lake Superior? — Upon the borders of Lake Superior. 3038. But the district of country to the north of Lake Superior is wholly unsettled, is it not ?— It is wholly unsettled, except by the Indian native tribes. 3039. The frontier between Lake Superior and the Red River is also unsettled, is it not .'-The oidy tixed residences which intervene are the Hudson's Bay posts. 3040. What is the distance in miles from the nearest point of Lake Superior to the Red River Settlement ? — I should say from 250 to 300 miles. 3041. Mr. Edward Ei/ice.] I think we have it in evidence that it is about 500 miles? — Yis ; that is following the canoe route. 3042. Mr. Gx.'gati] In your journeys to that country I believe you travelled from Fort U illiam to Lake Winnipeg very much the same district: — Yes. 3043. Upon all occasions ? — Upon all occasions. 3044 'I'hat coveied a space of nearly 30 years r — Vcs, 20 years. 304.-,. When you first went there the dispute between the North-Westeni Company and thf Hudson's Bay Company existed ?— It did. 304I). The Noith-Western Company had a station at Fort W illiam, had they not?— They had. 3047. Had they stations along this route which you have described to us 0.25, X towards iVii wn- m 162 MlNC'TES OF EVIDENc:E TAKEN CtlFORE THE Ih air. I. Hidtardion, towards Luke Winnipes; ?— The Hudson's Bay ("ompany and the North. e.B. We.^tern Company had [larallel stations In 1819 1 did "not travel up that wav ; it was from 1825 that I travelled that route ; it w.is onlv in two journeys 9 March 1857. to and fro that 1 travelled that route. 3048. \\ hen ihe i\oith-V\'estern Company were huntinjr for furs in Rupert's Lind, and that district, was it hy Fort William that they got their supplies into that country ? — Yes. 3n4 th(! absolute sine (juu noii of the country, namely, an improved communication with the settled pans of Canada? — If you cou:d make a railroad ; but there is no route in which canoes are exclusively employed which wdl ever make the carriage of grain profitable. I he expense of a canoe for a single season (and a season is always implied in it) is never less than 300/. ; it is from ;}U0/. to i300/. tor the wages of the men and their maintenance. ( )ne of these large canoes will carry about r)() or GO pieces of goods of 90 lbs. weight each; that, would make the grain excessively expensive; I believe the expense was eiionnous in endeavouring to carry grain up to supply the troops at Red Jliier. Thai ronie \(as chosen, and the grain was carried up at a vast e\peiise. Such a canoe as I have spoken of is manned by seven to tburieen men. 3ot)o. How far does a canoe, such as you have described, travel ? — Ihe large north canoe goes oidy to I'ort William; there it is clianged for small canoes. The same 14 men who man one of the large canoes to Fort William, man two small canoes. But fhe expense of the two small north canoes would be the same as the expense of one large canoe with 14 men, because there arc seven ir.en to each small canoe. 3o(ii. Have yon travelled tlirough the parts of .Minesoia and the United States which ad|oin our boundary th(-re ?— Yes, i have been through Lake Huron, and have seen that part of iMichigan. 3ot).'. In tlie (oiiniry which you speak of about Lake Huron and Michigan, are I here a variety of American settlements and resident establishments which have grown vcrv fast indeed? -Very fast. 30(1}. Have they the facilities of roads, or is it 'jy canoe work that they are obli;red to derive their supplies? — They have railroads and steamboats; there are some of tiie finest steamboats in the world running to those settlements upon SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSONS BAY COMPANY. 163 upon I ak Michigan; there is a succession of laree steamboatf Un. or four running in a day to Michiliniackinnc on Lake Huron ; and there is a ,. aonJ from New York to Chicago and Illinois. 30t>4. Mr. Btli.l There are steamboats on Lake Superior, are then- not? — Now there are steamboats on Lake Superior. 30(1-). But they only uo to the American setilfments ; there are none to the English si'ttleiiients ? — rhey were not running when 1 wa> there. 3oti(). Mr. GrO!>an.] You have desciibed these powerful steamboats and rail- roads also to some of the new American settlements; were the settlements in existence before these sieamers went there, or did the .steamers create the settle- ments r — Micliilimaekin;ic has been in existence since the time of tlie conquest of Canada. ^06'. Have you ever been at a town culled Superior, on the American side of the upper end of Luke Supeiior ? — No ; I have not been at Fond du Lac at all. 30t>'< Have you been at Chicago? - No ; I have been at Michiliniackinac oidy. 3oti(i. We find settlements on the American territory which grow very rapidly indeed and steamers and railroads running into them ; why are there not settle- ments <'f the same description on tiie British side of the liner — That is the great thoroughlare for emigrants to the Mississippi Valley; tiiey go from New York by that route to the Mississippi ; tiiere is a constant passage of travellers. I have conversed lately with a farmer from Illinois ; he told me that in that very fertile cc'intry, where they could take 20 crops in succession without manuring the groiind, 'heir grain was of no value without a railway, and settlers were very scarcv" ; they ran a line of railway through a part of the country, and instantly vil- lages s,?rrng up on both sides, and bags of grair, were piled up on each side of the railwiy, ni(>re than they could curry away. 3070. Would not the ibrmer part of your doscrijition of Il'inois exactly apply to the iieJ River Settlement, that the inhabitants there were few, and that the Ian. I was fertile, hut that they wanted a mode of exporting tiieir produce .' — IF you oarricd a railway to the lied Rii'er, I think you would have settlors. 3071. PreviouEly to the estublishnient of a railway, hf.<"e any consideralile numbers of free settlers in the Red River? — 1 do not know. I am not able to speak as to the number of tree settlers. 3074. Is there any j)art of the river where it runs through into Lake Win- nipeg nuvigahle for steamers ?— I cannot tell; I never a-cended the Red River; I do not know what rapids there aie in it ; but I should suppose that steamers, with a shallow draught of water, mi^ht ascend it. 307-). ) on m very appivheusive of the introduction of spirits into the Hud- son s Bay Comjiuny's territory in the event of part of it being thrown open for colonisation ? -Yes. 307!). Would they he introduced, do you apprehend, by the British S( ttlcrs, or from the American side r — 1 think both ways. 3077. In point of fact, are ardent spirits used in the country now?— There are none in the interior. I do not know what is used upon the boundary line. 1 did not visit the Red River Settlement. 3078. .Mr. blarkhiirii.] Do you compare Illinois and the Red River Settlement at ail in j)omt of agri< ullural capabiliiy ? — Not at all. Illinois, I suppose, is the most fertile sod in America. 3079. So that there is uo chance of the Red River being settled so rapidly as Ilhnois? — I should s.iy not the least; but I speak of the Red River mostly from the information which I have gathered. 3050. Mr. B(ilL\ You dc not speak of tiie Red River from personal knowledge r —No. 3051. It has been stated in evidence, 1 think, that the Red River will afford crops twenty times in succession without manure? — The Red River is at least i.OOO feet above the level of the sea, and very much higher than Illinois ; that is a great element against cultivation. 0.25. X 2 3o.Sii. Mr. Sir./. liickardsvii, c. B. f) March 1857. r 111 r-' m i p?. 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN ""r.FORE THE Sir J. Richardton, ('. H, 9 March 1657, ||'IM lit ^ SJ.il. \'y m \4 \ II : lii;, 308.'. Mr. Gn'<:soti.] Are you of opinion that no settlement, either of Euro- peans or of Indians, could be formed without the protection of a miN' fi)rce ? — I am of that opinion. 30S3 Mr. IklL] What other productions of tlie country are thi.c whicli you are iicquiiinted with ; are there any other mineral productions at the settlcmi-nt of theMacitenzic River; I think in your journal you mention phmihago?-! have seen specimens of plumha^o found near Fort Chipewayun, ;}()N4. V\ as it ol good <|uality .' — I'he piece that 1 saw was cf very good quality. 308.';. Do you think it is found in considerable quantity ?— That I cannot say ; I was unable to visit the spot. .;()8(). ^ou spoke of the inuudatiuns on the Saskatchewan River ; do they leave a dep( sit ? — I hey do. 3()S7 What description of deposit? — They leave alluvial deposit, but it is swept away in >he sprinj,' floods auain; there are large alluvial flats produced, and they lire constantly changing their situation. 3088. So thiit they do not leave any great body of soil ? — It would not be safe to build on many of them ; luit there are bluffs, such as that occupied by the Indian'*, rai»ed four or live feet ab-^ve the level of the floods ; there are \ illages located there. 3080. You were speaking of ground-ice; it has been mentioned in the Committee that there are swamps, between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg, flu/en permanently throughout the year ; have you found that to be the case ■ - I have fi>utid late in the summer, when «ading in lakes to collect water plants, ice undi r my feet, but I cannot speak as to the extent. There is one lake called Cold Water Lake, which has an exceedingly low temperature at all seasons of the year ; upon the height of land there. 3000. I he subject of the influence of climate upon the cultivation of the ground has been mentioned several times ; you say that clearing woods rather deteriorates the climate ; what do you think is the effect of draining marshes and swamps" — I should think that it would improve the climate. 30 )t. Should you imagine that any of this marshy country would, if settle- ments were carricfl into that neighbourhooil, be capable of drainage, so as to have that cfl^ect ? — Yes; 1 think that it would improve the climate if it were thoroughly drained; but it must be a very remote thing ; the ccuntry must be settled previously. 3092. Mr. Charles Filzirilliam .] Have any geological surveys been made of that country? — No, unfortunately not ; the north shore of L^ke Superior has heen thoroughly surveyi d by Mr. Logan and his assistants. 3093. What' has been the result of that ?— They found some minerals, which have been worked ; they found lead and copper. 3094. Any ii on ? — I dare say there is iron ; 1 saw plenty of iron ore in some places ; but that has not been wt)rked, so far as I know ; there were four or iei .u. 3i'2J. You have n.e;it;.»ned Fort Liard in your book as the northern limit of the tconoinic '•ii'tivati u of grain .' — Yes. '^^•2]. F 111 not (jiiiti iindi r»tand what you nieiin liy ccononiic mltivatioii ? — V\ here the return will be sutficient t 1 induce jnople to sow 3124. riii|iposini; it was found that there was any mineriil wealth in that dis- trici up as far as F"irt Liard to iiiduee settlement, tiie eountrt, and the soil would enable the cultivation nf grain to be carrieil out sufficiently 10 support a settle- mint, thouiih it would nut be sutlii lent to induce people to 1,0 11s aiirieidturists ? — I did n it visit Fort Liard, so that I cannot tell wh.it extent of ground is avail- able ; I only know that it has been cultivatid tliire; but at Fort Simpson, which is not fur from it, a little more northerly, they cultivate bailey and rear cattle but th y bring tiieir hay 150 miles down the river to feed their stock dorini; the v»intcr of nine months. 1 hey actually cut their hay ir)0 miles distant fro'n the post. 3rj,) V\'ith regard to the banks of the Peace River; have you travelled up the Peace River at all: — A little way ; it crosses through a prairie country, much of it. 3i2(i. Does the river run (irincipally tiirough a prairie country, or are the banks wooded r -The banks are wooded, but there is an elevated plateau of prairie land. .5 1 -'7. Would you not consider that that would be a favourable agricultural countrv, supposin<> it was more accessible; thnt is to say, that the prairies might be used for sheep and for pasture, and the woodeil portions might be cultivnied- — They could eultivate grain, so far as I understand, upon the allu- vial points ot the Peace River ; but the existence of wolves over the whole prairies compiele! precludes the depasturing of sheep. The wolves are too numerous for ?. y .j.> ;ifstic cattle to bo turned out upon the prairiea. 3125. Lord Je/jv. /w.vji//.] With regar i to the prospects for the future, sup- posing thift ill! t lia!i.;e was made by the Government or by Parliaineiil in the authority wiiicli th. Hudson's Bay Company have hitlidto had, do you think that 'hey would In' able to preserve that authority as wll as they have hitherto dor.er— I think so. Judging from the past. I tiiink they wouhl be able to preserve it in the future. The only disturbance of the [leaee which 1 exjiect might arise would be from the Red River, from the half-iaste settlers tliere wisiiing to interfere with the J'ur trade; I think they would be likely to give some trouble. 3129. Would not persons from the United State.* or from Canada be likely to wisii to s(ttle there, and settlinu there interfere with the fur trade? — I think the fur trade is the only thing that would bring them there; I do not think they would come as settlers for any other reason. 3130. .Supposing that tiny settled for the nason of interfering in tiie fur trade, which seems very jiossible, would not tlnir attempts to get possession of the fur trade or to inte fere in the fur trade, a good deal disturb the authority of the lliid-on's May Company? — \s long as tlie Hudson's Bay Company retain their influence over the Indians, I think they can prevent the peojile from passing into the interior and disturbing them much, but if the trade were openid, I think that a contest would arise. 3131. Do vou think that in the present state of that district, and of the neighbouring country, the trade can bt kept closed? — I think so for some time, until settling advances nearer to them; at present they are at such a distance from any populous country, that they are secluded as it wt n; from the world. 3132. Do you contemplate preventing settlement as far as possible, or allowing settlement, endeavouring to prevent that setlletntnt being turned into interference 9 March ifl.',;. SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THE IICDSONS DAV COMrANY. 167 interfcitnce with flie fur trade ? — I do not see that settlements at tlie Red River Hirj. Rkhardton, would interfere with it, but settlements I'urtlier north, I think, would interfere *^'"- with ilw fur trade. 31 ;j,{. Therefore, you would not ohject to see wfttiement make pro^resB at the Keil liiver ?- If I lie Red River were put under a sufficiently powerful government, apart from the Company, I Hce no reason why it should n to bring ti»e lui is profitable 1 cannot say. ;^i;5t) i)i) you see any objection to giving every ., conmiunicaiion between Lake Su|)eriorand the Red l-ivi roads and other means of intercourse? — I see noobjectio niunicitions at all ; naturally it liie Government were to make a r1% ts m> A /a 1.0 I.I |50 '""^ 2.5 ■^ 1^ 11112 12.0 n: 1^ 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 -^ 6" — ► %». % <^ /a /a yS^ <9 / Photographic Sdences Corporation # # :\ \ ^9) \ <^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 r^ '^t^ % h o & 6^ l{ ■ j. J i' 'i I !i « k E I 1 mm m 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C. B. 9 March 1857. Sir J. Kicharthon, from Lake Winnipeg, and send them to hunt a little further north, ro cut off the communication. 314.5. Mr. Bell.'\ Would you consider that there was any advantage in removing Indians who were settled and had become cultivators of the soil ? — I do not think they could remove them ; they would not move. 3146. It has been done in the United States, and also in Canada r — That was done by force. 3147. The Indians when they hud settled the country and brought it into cultivation objected very much to be removed ? — Exceedingly. 3148. Mr. Edward Ellice.'} Do you not think that if the Ked River Settlement were an open colony the Indians from all parts of the territory would flock towards it in the hopes of getting liquor? — Ihat I cannot say; if liquor were easily acquired I think that a great part of the furs would be carried in that direction to procure liquor. 314!). Mr. Grogan.] The great want in that country in the way of colonieation is the means of a ready communication for the transit of their (joods '.' — The means of exporting the produce ; the want of that would bar cultivation. 3 1 50. A project has been mentioned here as being contemplated for a canal somewhere from Fond du Lac to communicate with tiie lower end of the Rainy Lake in the British territory ; if such a navigable Ciinal were constructed, for instance, would that in your opinion answer the purpose : — It would not answer the purpose for Red River without passing through the American territory, and from Rainy Lake the route would be through a part of the American territory, unless they descended the difficult River Winnipeg. 3i.<)i- I should tell you that the project is American ; to construct it through American soil us far as it goes ? — If they could construct a canal there, it would make the communication with Red River easier ; but it would be through American territory. 315.2. But would it not have the efll'ect of opening up that country for settlers? — I think so. If it is worth while to make a canal, the projectors must see their way to the settling of people there ; but that would be in the American territory, as I say. 3i.'i.5. Is it within your knowledge that there is any communication by the Rat or Reed River, Lake Winnipeg, and Red River? — I have heard that there is a canoe route in that direction. 3154. But you have never traversed it? — I have never traversed it ; I have heard that there is a canoe route across there, and that the Americans travel in that direction. 3 1. -,5. .Mr. Edzrard Ellice.] For how many months in the year would the route be open by canul, by ordinary means r — Between lour and live months ; 1 suppose five months. 31. "id. And for the other seven months it would be closed .'—Yes. 3 1, '57. Mr. Blaekhurn.] How many feet did you say the level of Rainy Lake was above Lake Superior ? — I ^o not know without reference; I suppose that Rainy Lake would probably be 500 feet ; it is upon the other side of the water- shed, upon the descent to Lake Winnipeg. 3158. !So that there is no great probability of a canal being made 10 rise to a superior level of 500 feet r — No, I should think not ; there would be a great manv locks. ill ii-i '1 M \\\ III ^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 169 ■.)■ .. Session II. 1857. Martis, 19" die Maii, 1857. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Christy. Mr. Edward El I ice. Mr. Cliarins Fitzwilliam. Mr. Greper Canada. 3192. Not more severe? — Perhaps less so. 3193. Than Quebec, for instance? — The thermometer sinks to 47° below zero occasionally at Red River, as it does at Quebec ; but the open season is somewhat longer at Red River, I think, than even in Upper Canada. 3194. Mr. Roebuck.^ Is the climate warmer than in Lower Canada, because there is a diflference between Upper and Lower Canada? — I think it more resembles U^pper Canada, although I have not spent a seas(m in Upper Canada. I found it necessary to compare tlie two. I have a complete account of the colony, its products, and its climate, which, if I were ."• ^d, I would lay before the Committee. 319.';. Chainuau.] Has it been prepared by youn^t,: .-— It was prepared by mvself, and sent to the Horse Guards. 3196. A report?— A report. That report, I should think, there can be no objection to my making public, because it is altogether of a descriptive nature. 3197. Mr. Roebuck.} Can you tell ri'. ■ when the spring or the summer there begins ? — The season o|)ens about the lirst week in .'Vpril, and closes about the middle of November ; that is to say, the rivers, lakes and swamps freeze in the middle of November. 3198. That is about what occurs in Lower Canada ? — I thought it. was about that of Upper ('anada ; I may be wrong. 31P9. Does the summer season close as eFidy as the middle of November? —The summer season may be said to close in August, but the finest weather is what is called the Fall, which extends from August to the middle of November. 3200. When does the permanent snow tall?— It commences at the latter part of November, and is not od' the ground until the first week in April. 3201. Had you an opportunity of seeing any agriculture while you were there? — A great deal. 3202. What sort of crops did they L^row ? — Oats, barley, and wheat, chiefly, but ail sorts of vegetables. 3203. Did the wheat ripen ? — In 90 days from sowing. 3204. It SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 171 3JO4. It ripened very perfectly? — It was the tiiiest wheat I ever saw. 3-20!;. ^^'a3 the soil fertile? — Along the immediate banks of the rivers, and extending for, {lerhaps, the breadth of two miles, no finer loamy soil could be seen, with a limestone foundation. j-20(l. Is it geologically limestone ?— All- 3207. And wherever limestone is, there is fertile land, is not theie? — I think that is the consequence. 3208. Do you know how far the limestone extends; looking at that map? — I have ascertained from servants of the Hudson's Bay Company that it extends, as a base of the whole prairie land, to the Rocky Mountains. 3209. So that, in fact, that part of the territory is tit for agriculture'- — Quite so. 3210. And would make a good colony? — It might maintain millions. 3211. You talked about your forming a portion of the government there; did you ever take part in the administration of justice • — In nothing, excepting in those matters which affected ray troops. I entered into no municipal questions, except respecting the sale of spirits. 3212. Could you form any opinion as to the efficiency of the administration of justice there? — I think justice w>»s well administered, under the guidance of a very able man, who advised the Company's government. 3213. He was sole judge, I suppose; there was no jury? — Yes, there *vas a jury always, in th(jse cases that were referred by the mugistraies from the quarterly meeting, which were decided by the Governor in Council, with the legal assistance of the recorder, Mr. 'I'liom, and by a jury of the inliahitants. 3214. Supposing A. B. had been referred as you say, and was to be tried, who sat as judge ; Mr. Thoin r — The magistrates sat as a session, and had a chairman. 321.5. Who was the chairman r — I think he was usually the Governor of the colony. 3216. Not the recorder? — Not the recorder ; he was the legal adviser ; some- thing like our own recorder here in London, who sits under an aldermen. 3217. You are rather mistaken there ; the recorder is the judge in London ? — Then I am wrong. I am but a soldier. The seat in which the recorder sat was not the ordinary judge's place. 3218. The judge was in fact the Governor ? —The Governor sat, I think, in the place that a judge would sit in Westminster Hall. 32 1 9. Wiio charged t! 2 jury ? — I never was present at a trial on which there was a charge made. 3220. Then your opinion of the administration of justice is, I take it, formed upon hearsay ? — It is so far from being hearsay that I was present at one trial by the magistrates, but Mr. Thorn happened not to be present on that occasion. 3221. Was there a jury then ? — There was no jury. 3222. So that trials do take place there without a jury? — T ials by the magistrates. 3223. What offence was that ? — I think it was a breach of a municipal law. The case I know was for selling some rum, which had been given for a marriage feast, to some of my soldiers, which was contrary to a municipal law. 3224. Did you ever hear of any trials taking place of people for selling peltries to any other than the Company ? — I have heard of such, because there was a sol- dier (if my own on one occasion, who bought some paltry fur or other, and he was reported to me for having done it. I said that I did not see the offence distinctly, but they pointed out to me that it was against the law of the place, and of course I punisluid the soldier. 3225. Did you institute any inquiry into that matter?— I did ascertain from a Serjeant and corporal who were present, as well as I now remember, but it is 10 years ago, that the man did purchase the article ; he gave some tobacco for it. 3226. Are you at ail aware whether the person who sold it was tried and punished also ? — No, I know that he was not ; he was an Indian ; I know that he was not ])unished in any way. 0.24— Scss. 2. Y2 3227. Why Colonel /. F. Cro/ion. vj May 1857. I' I -.1 ;4: :)■! lis 1^ 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ColoneJ S'^'^T- Why was not he punished ; was it because they could not catch him? J, F. Crofion. — J think tiiey attributed it to ignorance, and that he wanted tobacco. I beUeve they said tliat he did not know exactly tiiat he was doing wrong. I believe it is 19 May 1857. .J ygpy common thing to exchange furs for tobacco there. 3238. But it was contrary to law r — Quite so. 3229. And you punished your soldier for buying:— I punished him for it because he knew that I had cautioned the men myself not to deal with the Indians. 3230. Besides that one particular case which you saw, did you ever see any other administration of justice f — No, the crimes are so very few ; I think the magistrates only sat once while I was there. 3231. Then the only time that you saw any administration of justice, it was without a jury ? — Yes. 3232. When you were there, had you much communication with the half- breeds? — A good deal. 3233. Did you ever hear any complaints from them of the state of things ?— Yes ; they were always grumbling. 3234. About what ?— Chiefly that they were not allowed to import spirits. 323.';. Did they ever tell you that ? — They used to tell me that ; that they wished that, and to be allowed to distil them. 3236. Do you mean to say that the half-breeds told you that the chief fault which they had to find with the Government was, that they would not allow them to import spirits ? — Yes ; they said it was very hard that they could not tak " spirits from St. Peter's, or distil tliem themselves, and therefore they alleged that to me as a reason why they would not cultivate barley or oats. 3237. Did not the same men suggest to you as a hardship, that they were not allowed to sell peltries ?— Yes, they did indeed ; that was the case also ; but I think that their chief objection was what I first stated. 3238. But did they say that their chief objection was that ? — Yes, certainly. If you will allow me, I would state how it arose. Many of these men 1 took upon .myself to reason with about leaving their lands utterly uncultivated, and going out into the prairies to hunt buffaloes rather than looking after their crops, which would support them in the winter. They said that there was no use in growing corn, for they had no export for it. They also said that tiie little which they would wish to raise beyond what would subsist them, they wished to distil into spirits, which the Company would not allow. They thought that a great hardship, and they said that the Company not only forbade them to do it with their own corn, but that they would not let them import them. This made them, they said, quite miserable in the winter : this was the thing which they all harped upon. 3239. Was the non-export of their corn considered a grievance solely or mainly because they could not buy spirits with it ? — No ; ihey said that tliey did not cultivate their lands for two reasons ; one was, that they could not export corn which they might raise beyond that required for their mere subsist- ence, and that even it was better for them to purchase the means of subsistence with the produce of the plains, the pemmican which they made, than to culti- vate their lands, for if they grew corn they did not know what to do with it; they could not export it, and they were not allowed to distil it. That is what these poor humble men said to me; of course I do not speak of it as being a reasonable statement. 3240. In your opinion is not ihat a reasonable statement r — No, but I think that that is the cause of their noi cultivating their lands. 3241. If you were placed in the position of a man having 100 acres of land there ? — They only had 50. 3242. And if you cultivated it and grew a good deal of corn, and you were not allowed to export it, and were not allowed to use it as you pleased, should you think that a grievance ? — It was not that they were not allowed to export it, but that they could not export it ; there were no means of exporting it. 3243. Was not it the law that they should not have any trafec ? — The law was that they should not have any traffic. 3244. Then you might say that the law did not permit it ? — They did not so state it to me ; they siated that they could not export their corn. 3245. Was t\ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 173 icres of land 3245. Was not that the fact ?— It was the fact. 3246. Lord Stanley.] You say the law forbids them to have any tiaflBc ; with whom ? — With the Americans, or Indians in furs. .'5247. Do you know what is the nearest point to which their corn could be sent? — Pembina is the nearest point on the American territory, which is GO miles from Red River ; but thoy can prow as much as they want there themselves. The only place where it could be sold would be at St. Peter's, at Fort Smelling, and that is a long distance ; 400 miles perhaps. ;;a48. Is it likely that corn {jrown at the Red River would bear the expense of so long a journey, and be sold ut a profit afterwards? — Certainly not. 324<)- Even if the communications were improved? — Unless there was unin- terrupted water communication I do not think it could pay. * 3250. Mr. Roebuck.'] Have you ever travelled in Minnesota? — No. 3251. Or any portion of the wild parts of America? — Yes ; I have travelled some of the wild parts, for I went from Red River to Fort William, on Lake Superior. 3252. I mean in the United States? — No. 3253. You do not know then how the settlers of the new territories live? — Not at all. 32,')4. Do you suppose that persons at Red River would find any more dithculty than persons in Minnesota to live ? — I should think not. 32.55. And do you suppose that the same circumstances which attach to tho people in Minnesota, and increase civilisation and colonisation there, would attach to the persons livinji in Red River, and would there increase civilisation and colonisation if permitted ? — I believe the circumstances are different, for they have the Missouri River and the St. Peter's River in that direction, and a population has crept up close to them ; but at Red River the nearest point of steam navigation for the colonists is Fort William, on Lake Superior, and that is a very long distance, the itinerary of which I have here, if I am allowed to produce it. 32.56. W'here does your route begin r— My route begins from Red River itself, Fort Garrv, 26 miles from Lake Winnipeg. 3-',57. And it goes from thence to Lake Superior? — This itinerary of mine carries me to Sault Ste. Marie. 32,58. That is between Lake Huron and Lake Superior? — Exactly; just before the fall of 20 feet takes place. 3259. How many miles is it from that fort which you mentioned to Lake Superior? — The whole distance is about 1,126 miles to Sault Ste. Marie. 3260. That is right across the lake, but I am talking of the distance from the western border of the lake to the fort r — Then 354 miles will have to be deducted from the 1,126. 32(3 1. Do you mean to say that it is 700 miles from the Red River to Lake Superior ? — Yes. 32ti2. 'J he greater part of that I suppose could be travelled by water? — All by water, with the exception of the slight portages, no one of which exceeds three or four miles ; three miles I think is the longest. 3263. Mr. Edward ElHce.] What sort of boats are there r — There are two kinds used by the traders ; tliere is what they call a bateau, or a sort of barge, which is used from Fort Garry to Fort Frances; then from Fort Frances onward they have large canoes, which will hold 20 people easily. 3264. If you had had to take a gun from Fort William to Fort Garry, what sort of work would it have been? — I think very easy. T do not see any difficulty. 1 limit it to nine-pounders ; a man cannot carry above 180 lbs. 326,5. How much of that distance would men have had to carry that gun ? —I have not summed up the distances of the portages here, but in my military report they are given ; it is 10 years since I wrote that, and it only came into my possession last night. Colonel J. !•'. CroftoH. la May 1857. t, \ I •!^'»!? [The Witness delivered in the following Paper :] 0.24-- Sess. 2. Y3 Route* Mil W '■ , ' '* li 1 liii yL Colonel 19 May 1857. 174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE IHK RouTK, by I.akca nnd niverii, from Red [liter Colony to Sault de St*. Marir, trBT»r»ed by Colonel Croflim,Ui\\ Foot, in lH-t7, the Portng'L's nnd cstimnted Distancen bi'tween unoh, nnd tin* svver.tl Point* oB the whole Wuter Line. Red River Lake Winnipeg Winnipeg River Lake of the Woods • Lnc In Pliiio River - Luc la Pluie ]- Lac Macan Riviere Macan Luc la Croix - Riviere Maliprne Sturgeon Lake Lite Dore Lau dea Morts Lake Windego Millc Lac Riviere Savannc Height of Ltind Dos Itiver Miles. Upper Fort Garry (a Lower Fort Garry Indian Settlement Mouth of Red River I Point* (irand Msraia Fart Alexander, H. B. post I First Eiiii i|ui meat, portage \ mila Second - ditto Third - ditto Terre Hliinche Petit Raohe I \ mila ditto ditto \ ditto i „ - ditto 100 yards Hoclie dr Uonet, Ist portage, 1 mile Ditto - !id ditto ISO yardn Ditto • 3d ditto SO „ Lao de Ronct, short portages White River Grand Rapid Banii'ie Portuire, 50 yardu Sliivi! Fulls, J mile Roche Brule, -JOO yard» Poiate au.T CIiciioh, 160 yurdd Poiale dcK I'.ois, > mile Chute \\ Jacho, -JOO yards Portiige de \'\Ae, \ mile Wahaxiniiins', Riimnn-eatholie miaaion CiiVc I'oitag-e, 4 mile - Crete Portage, 'JO yards Tcrre Blanche Portage, 200 yardb - Gruudu Di'charge Dallas Rapid Rat Portage, H. B. C. post Little Portage, 50 yarda Across tlu! Traverse Sand^- KnoUa Riviere aux Rapides Long Sault - • ■ Manitou Rapid The Forks - Fort Frances, H. B. C. post Little Creek Portaufc Neul" « Trois Portages Traverse ... Portage de I' Isle - Ist portage to 2d portage 3d ditto to :)d ditto nd ditto to 4th ditto Portnare des deux Rivieres, 1 mile Portage des Morts, } mile Portage des Francois, 2 miles Portage Pente, J mile - Portage do Baril, \ mile Suvnnne Portage ... Millieu Portage ... Prairie Portage . . . . Prairie Portage, 200 yards - Jourdain Portage, 200 yards Barrivre Portage, 100 yards - 30 8 16 24 3i] 7 8 3 4 G 22 13 24 3 5 ■5 25 3 18 Id 3« 20 n i 3 10 3 27 RSMAaKS. • - From Fort Garry to Fort Francai boati can be employod, aa on the York Factory routa. At Fort Francos oanoea must be used aa far as Fort William ; barges can then be eiiiployad for passing throngh Lake Superior to Sault Ste. Marie, 1 1 14 la 14 7 3 1 i 9 26 14 4 1 4 3 20 17 26 as 7 *) 22. ft 17 16 40 - - Here canoos must be 7 employed lor troops. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 17,5 Pog Lnko Kaniiniatui|uoiali River. Fort William - Lokc Superior Sonlt Stp. Marie. Dog Portage, it milM - l.ittie Dog Portage, ^ mile - Portage des Martrea, 20 yarda Ditihargn d<>a Pineta' ■ Uhto dea Tmnblaa Ditto Mnuvaia Ditto Bulanger Portage de Couteau, 300 yarda DHto llsoouai, 600 yarda • Ditto de riale, 100 yarda - D(-charge, 00 yardn Eoartc- Portage, ^ mile Mountain Portage, j mile 'Hudaon'a Bay Port - Tonnerre Point . . - Lea Ecrita . - - . TrBverae .... Piv laland .... Pio, H.B.C. Poat Otter's Head l.es Eoora .... Bear Berry Rirer Groa Cap, lat • Micliipicoton, H. B. C. Poat - Gargantua .... Montreal lalaud ... Mamaieuse . . . - GroH Cap, 2d - - - Point aux Pins to - - S:iult SJtc. Marie. JoT.u. Distance about - MiLU. 1.1 at i « 'i I 4 i 4 1 h :)0 16 80 10 IS 18 80 20 35 e 3 •Jl 'JO 36 80 1,125 RatURKs. * If atcamera aliall be eatabliahed on Lake Superior, the journey from Red River, 1^ canoe or barge, will end here, and aave 354 mileg of dangerous navigation for araall boata. A'.£. — The distance marked opposite each place in this Itinerary is that between it and the place next under it. The journey can be performed in 36 days by this route. 3266. Mr. Roebuck.] I was asking you about the river ; does the river fell into Lake Superior? — There is a heij^ht of land which divides the Waters; the Kamenistiquoia River falls from the height of land, and it is about 36 miles from the Kakabeka Fall to Fort William. The other rivers flow westward and empty into Lake M inni[)eg, which ultimately empties itself by Hayes' and other Rivers into Hudson's Bay. 3267. So that part of the way you go against stream and part of the way with stream r— The main part of the way proceeding towards Canada is ■;)> stream. 3268. Could that stream, with a little difficulty, be renderfc> '. navigable river for boats .' — Of course, by damming it up in several places /ou might avoid a great many small jjortages ; but practically, for the slight intercourse which there is, it is less labour to carry over the portages. 326;). But if there were a great population to come there in time, and a great traffic, could nut they veiy easily canal the river r — 'Certainly. 3270. So that the country does not hold out any obstacles to colonisation ? — Quite the contrary. All that tract is a lovely country by Lac la Pluie and the Lake of the Woods. 3J71. Did you at all travel towards the Rocky Mountains during the 12 months you were there ? — I rode myself long distances on the plains to ascer- tain what they were like. 3272. And what did you find them like? — If I may say so, a kind of land sea, with undulations, but I could have driven the lightest spring gig over it all, and 1 believe it extends 400 miles. 3273. Then there is no difficulty in communicating with that part of the country? — I believe you may drive a waggon from Red River to the Rocky Mountains. I have heard of those who have done it. 3274. Did you pay any attention to the circumstances which prevented that country from being colonised while you were there ? — Yes, I did. .i 0.24— Sess. 2. Y 4 3275. Did Colonel /. F. Cro/ton. 19 May 1857. If 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel 3275. Did you come to any conclimions thereupon? — Ye?, I did. J. F. Criifton. ;]a7t). What were they?— They were these; that it was remoteness and utter insularity which prevented people from settling there. 13 May 1857. 3277. is it more remote than Oregon? — Orogon is close to the sen, and therefore it may be said to he the ne.xt parish to England in that sense. 3J78. Is it more remote than Minnesota? — I do not know that country at all; but I should suppose that the navigation of tho Missouri, and the Mississippi, and the branch rivers, renders that country perfectly reachable, if I may so express it, by everythintr 3279, I suppose you have heard of Utah ? — I have. .'{280. That IS separated, I take it, by a desert from the rest of the world ? — I believe it is ; but I know nothing of its communications with tiio other States. ,}j8i. 1 suppose you have heard that it has become a great settlement ? — It has. 3.282. Iking separated I'rom the rest of the world, it has become a great settlement: — I am not at all ac(|uainted with the nature of its separation from it. There may be circumstances which may 'ender a great tract of countiv desert, which yet may offer facilities of" approach ; for instance, you may run a railway over a dead dry flat with great facility. 3283. Would there be any great difficulty in running a railway from Lake Superior to the Red Ri"er ? — There are no insuperable difficulties in these days of engineering ; probably the great difficulty would bo the swamps. 3284. Lord Stanley.~\ You spoke of the difficulties of communication between the Sault Stc. Marie and the Red River; of what nature are those difficulties? — The want of anything better than a mere foot-traek, in which you go in Indian file, is the great dithculty over the portages, and having to carry every- thing, and divide everything into weights of 1)0 lbs. each. 3285. Do you know what the number of the portages is between Red River and Lake Superior ? — Yes, I could tell the exact number, if I were to count them on this paper. 328ti, Mr. Edicard ElUce.'] How many breaks are there in the navigation? — The whole distance from Sault Ste. Marie does not much exceed 1,100 miles ; it can be done in 30 days. I am sorry to say that these papers only came into my bands last night, and consequently 1 am not so well acquainted with them as I was when I wrote them ; I must count the number of portages : some of them are so exceedingly short as to be only 20 yards ; I do not know that I should include them. 3287. You had bettr * put in all the interruptions to the navigation ? — They are all enumerated here, above 60. 3288. Lord Stanley.] Are any of those portages of considerable length ? — The longest, I think, is 2 i miles to three miles. 3289. Over a height of land ?-;;-Over the height of land. 3290. At a considerable elevation therefore above the river?— I took the levels myself, 131 feet ; I remember that distinctly, for I took the level above and below. 3291. Then at that point the navigation must necessarily be interrupted ? — Yes ; it is the great Kakabeka Fall ; it is a little higher even than Niagara. 3292. Therefore no engineering skill and no reasonable amount of expen- diture would produce an unbroken navigation between Red River and the ■waters of Lake Superior ? — Not from that point, but there may be in the United States territory a means of doing it ; from the extreme western point of Lake Superior, I believe the land slopes down there to the southward. 3293. But you are not aware of any such?— No J I have heard so; but the great difficulties in that case are in the swamps; the upper land is com- paratively dry. 3294. Do you know anything of the country to the north of Lake Superior, from personal knowledge ? — Nothing whatever ; I merely coasted the northern side ; it is full of minerals, for I knocked off" silver and copper myself with an axe, cropping out. 3295. While you were at Red River, did you hear much desire expressed on the part of the inhabitants for an improved communication with Canada?— Yes, I did. 329(5. By )tene8s and SELECT COMMITTKE ON THE HUDSONH BAY COMPANY. 177 3J()fi. By wlmt clans of pcraoiitt; the half-breeds or the whito settlerH-— I tliink by the Scotch settlers chietiy ; I say the Scotch settlers, because 1 chiefly communicated with them. ;ji()7. Was there upon their minds an impression that those communications bad been neglected, and that more might htive been done by the Uovernmi-nt of the country than had been done f — I dare say that was u very general inipressiou. 3'j(|8. You have spoken of a ])rohibition to trade as existing in the case of the Red River settlers ; does that ])rohibition extend to all articles, or is it limited to the trade in furs ? — I think furs and spirits. 3209. Is there any prohibition to a Red River settler to send his grain to any place to which he can transport it '.' — I think not ; I never heard of it. 3300. Mr. J. //. du/wi/.] You uienlioned that the colonists at the Red River had only ."iO acres of land each ? — That is the limit. 3301 . That is to say, the Company will not grant them any larger amount? — Since the settlement came into their possession, out of Lord Selkirk's hands, I think that has been the municipal rule ; but there may have been excejjtions, though I am not aware of a single one, and I knew every man's allotment. 3302. Did you meet with instances in which one person had sold his allotment to another ? - Many instances of s\ibdivision. 3303- But not of agj^regation ? — None that 1 can at all charge my memory with. 3304. Mr. lioelmck.'] Do you know the state of the law, whether a person could sell liis land without permission of the Company ? — 1 think there was a sort of formal paper put in for permission to subdivide it. 330,5. I mean to sell it ? — Yes, he might sell the whole lot. 330(i. Without permission of the Company ? — I think so. 3307. That is your impression ? — That is my impression clearly ; I really nev*r thought upon the point before ; but 1 know that in subdividing it they liad to apply. 3308. Mr. Gregson^ Are those lots generally well cultivated ? — As far as regards the Scotch settlers, admirably. 3309. Are you aware that they can sell the produce of the farms to the Company ? — Yes. 3310. To any extent r — That is their market, and sole market. 33 11 . Mr. Edward El/ice.] Do you know any case where a settler, having a lot of .50 acres, has been refused au additional lot when he has asked for it ? — I do not remember a case. 3312. Your observations have chiefly, I think, applied to the territory south of bO' ; the parallel of .')0° runs through the Red River Settlement ? — It does. 3313. I think your observations have generally been as to the territory south of that? — Yes. I came down from Fort York, in Hudson's Bay, and all that line I have a map of, which was drawn by my own hand, with all the bearings of every point on the river ; therefore I know the route accurately. 3314. But I am speaking of your observations with regard to the fertility of the soil and the climate : your '>ijt.orvation8 have chiefly applied to the territory south of 50° ? — Yes ; at actually the Red River colony itself, which is, if I may 80 describe it, the fork of the two rivers, the Assinniboyne and tlie Red River. If yuu took a compass, with a radius of 50 miles, it would describe the whole of the Red River colony. 33' 5- That is the government of Assiniboia ? — It is. 33 1 6. What sort of a country is it to the north of that, on Lake Winnipeg, at Norway House, and all that territory ; what sort of land is it ? — You might grow corn there, but the season closes sooner. 3317. During the time you were in Red River, or in your progress down between York and Red River, did you go at all into the interior ; did you see much of the country ? — I went as far as a horse would take me occasionally. I have never been a night out from the fort, with one exception. 3318. With regard to the complaints that were made by the half-breeds of the restrictions on spirits, do you know their object in wanting to distil spirits and possess spirits ? — I think they had two objects ; one was for their own consumption, and another was, probably, to surreptitiously trade with them. 0.24— Sess. a. Z 3319. That Colonel J. F. Crn/lon. Ii 19 May 1847. u <:.': 178 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCK TAKEN IJEFDllE Till iii Coloni'l 33i<)' Thiit iH to Hay, to trade in furs with them ?— Td trnd<> in furH witli the J. F. Cruftnn. .IndianH, []yio. From tli«' ('XiMTiciK'f which you hnv<' liml, is it your opinion thnt the ly Mijr 1837. trade in spirits would l)e very prejudicial to the Indians * — I am sun- tif it. .532 1 . You thiiilt tiiat it would he a very unwise tlunuj to remove the restriction upon tlie sale of spirits ? — I do. ;).j'2J What an* your reasons for tliinkin<;' so r — Because since the junction of the two companies, the North- West (!oni]mny and tiie Hudson's Hay (!(mipuiiy, the issue of s|>irits in liarter for furs )'J*, but I believe b«'low that, betw«'»'n thot and U)*, thry wouM be very glad if it WKH iiH well euitivuted and |ie()|il«-d iih in Canada; that itt tu say, the Hudnon'B Bay Company iiave ulwayH exprcuHed that opinion to nie. ;jj4J. So that if we tak<' the lliidson'H Hay (!oinpiinv by their expresnions, thi y would be ^lad to Hee that part of the eountry pei)pli,3. Did you ever go from Montreal to Kingston ? — I never went from Montreal to Kingston, liut I went from Kingston to Montreal. 33')4. Then you descended the river ?— I did. 33,'',',. In what? — I think it was in a steamer, or occasionally steaming. 33,i6. You did not know that river before steamers were upon it ? — No. 33;,7. Had you any opportunity of seeing the difHculties of the rapids of the St. Lawrence : — I saw no difficulty ; I went down with great facility. 33'',8. Therefore you cannot give me an answer to this question, whether there be not as many obstacles between Kingston and Montreal, by way of the river, as between the western point of Lake Superior and Red River ? — The woters are ([uite of a diflFerent character ; the one is exceedingly deep water, though very mpid ; the Quebec River, in fact, is the great river that flows down ; but the other is comparatively shallow, excepting in the lakes, and broken up between rocks where you have to haul or pole the bouts and canoes, and these obstacles are almost iimumerable. 33.')<). Did you ever see a bateau taken \ip the St. Lawrence r — No. 33()o. Vou have seen a French bateau, 1 suppose ? — Many. 33(ti. You know that they do not draw above two inches of water whm they are not laden r — Very few. 3362. Those bateaux went up the River .St. Lawrence • — They did. 33(13. They were pushed up close by the shore over the rapids, where the water was very shallow ■ — Yes, but they were not interrupted by rocks ; there was a free navigation though it was a flow down of water. 33(14. Is that your statement to me that they were not interrupted by rocks ; because I have been up that river very often, and I know that there are rocks "- — I speak of what I encountered. 336,5. You did not encounter any rocks, because you went down the river? — 1 went down the river by steam, and therefore 1 cannot speak of the diffi- culties up that river : I am speaking of the difficulties of the rivers between Fort William and Lake Winnipeg. 33ti6. Would there be any difficulty in making roads over that portage ? — Not the slightest. 3367. If there were good roads and waggons over the portage there would be no great difficulty? — It would be hardly worth while hauling in wheel carriages for 20, 25, or 30 yards. The water is kept up till it comes to a narrow place, perhaps between two rocks, and there it pours down with a vast 0.24 — Sess. 2. z 2 force, ColonrI J. f. Crti/lom. 19 May 1857, iii^ ,|KI; i8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel force, and you must pole and haul, if ytu nan, or carry ; that is the nature of / /■■. Crofim. the navigation. —^ 33t)8. Do not some of the portages extend some miles ? — I think the longest 19 May 1857. is three miles. .3;39 The distance from Lake Winnipeg to Frrt William I ajjprehend is greater than the distance from Fort Garry to Fort VViUiam, is it not r — No, the distance from Fort Garry to Fort William is upwards of 8G miles more ; from Lake Winnipeg to Fort \Villiam is 86 to 90 miles less than from Red River. 3410. Mr. Chrlstij.] I think you wereGovernor of tiie Red River Settlement • — No ; I had nothing to do with the Government. 341 1. During the year that you were there: — No, I had nothing to say to it while I commanded the troops ; 1 was merely a soldier ; I had notliing to do with the civil government. 3412. On your return to England, you were called upon by the Secretary for the Colonies to report upon certain complaints made by settlers in Hudson's Bay ? — Yes ; I rememlier that perfectly well ; I was (juartered at Fermoy, and that (juestion was afterwards discussed in Parliament. As well as I remember, it was Mr. Isbister's memorial, 3413. You made nine or ten answers, I think, to certain questions? — Yes ; 1 remember perfectly making replies to Sir Benjamin Hawes, then Mr. Hawes. 3414. Do you adhere to the opinions which you then gave? — I am sure I must, for I took great paius to be accurate then. 3415. Were you re-ident in any other pa. u of the country except in the Red River ? — No, not resident. 3416. Do you consider that the period for which you were in the Red River was sufficient to enaMe you to form a correct opinion of the country, in reference to the points which you stated in your report to the Secretary of State ? — It was limited to Red River, and to form it I think I was long enough there ; of course I cannot say wlltit took |)lace in distant places. 3417. You could not sny what took place in other remote parts of the country ? - Not except from hearsay. 34 iS. With reference to the condition of the Indians, your ol)servation, I suppose, was directed to their condition in the Red River settlement ? — And on the route ; I had occasionally communications witli tliem through an interpreter, and they never made any complaints to me, or anything of that nat ve; they chiefly l)egged tobacco from me. 3410. Di(l you take- any means to ascertain the condition of the Indians, except in the settlement of the Red River? —At Fort York I did ; the Indians in and abcmt Fort York I was interested in, and during the short time that I was there I inquired a great deal about them. 3420. Did the condition of the Indians in the Red River, and that of the Indians in the remote districts through which you travelled, strike you as being very different ?— There was no difference ; they are all much alike, excepting that they differ as to tril)es and language. 3421. You speak of tlie influence of the missionaries in reference to their condition in the answers which you made to the Secretary of State ? — I do. I knew the Rev. Mr. Smithers very well, who served an Indian settlement about nine miles below the lower fort of Red River, and I used to hear a great deal from him, and with great interest, and he always spoke in the highest terms of the arrangements made for their benefit. 343a. Can SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 1S3 3422. Can you inform the Committee whether it is your opinion that the condition of the natives in the Red River settlement is much superior, where they are under the influence of the missionaries, to their condition in remote and distant parts of the country through which you have travelled ? — Measuring their condiMon by my own ideas of comfort anil happiness, I should say it was much better in the f'n\ River settlement. 34'2.j. I think \) were nine questions put to you, and you gave answers to all those in your r. -.tto the Secretary of State ? — I have no copy of them. I lost or was robboti of most of my jjapers when I was in Ireland, and among the rest a copj- of those answers relating to Mr. Isbister's memorial, and therefore I am depending up(m my memory entirely for it. 34J4. You know that they were furnished to the House of Commons? — I heard so, but never saw tliem. 342,5. And that they have been printed ? — 1 never heard that. I never saw them. 342(). Does your memory serve you with reference to the queries which were put to you : — I tind that to nine questions only one finswer r elated to the Red River colony particularly ; there were nine complaints?— It is now nine or ten years ago. If you ask me the questions which were then put to me, I will answer them now as I did then, I hope. 3427. Then you cannot tell me upon what information the answers to the other questions were based ? — I really do not now know the questions that were put to me. I cannot remember what they were ; if you ask them over again of me I will try and answer them, but I am entirely in the hands of the Com- mittee upon that point, for 1 have no j)apers. 3428. I suppose the information which you derived, and from which you gave the answers to the Secretary of State, was principally from servants of the Company, and jjcrsons connected with the Company? — It was from my jouruid ; it was from materials collected without any object except private satisfaction, and which were in the form of !i journal, which I unfortunately lost among my other papers. 34^:9. You cannot furnish the Committee with any proof of the evidence which was given by the Bishop of Montreal, whom you quoted r — 1 do remember quoting his little book. 3430. And various other ([uotations which you gave ? — I do not recollect what quotations they were ; probably it was about the religious position of the colonists. 1 have entered into that very fully in my report on the colony. 343 1 . You have mentioned that a census was taken by the Hudson's Bay Company of the native population periodically ? — Yes. 3432. Does the report which you have referred to contain a copy of that census .' — It does not of that, but it contains the census of Red River at three or four different j)erio(ls. 3433. You have given information to the Committee with reference to a census of the native population ; the increase or decrease of the Indians f — Just so: that is done by the Hudson's Bay Company, and no doubt a commu- nication to them would obtain it. 3434. It is not contained In your report '. — No ; I had not access to the figures exeejjting to look at them. 343."). Did you ever visit any of the missionary stations which were not in the Red River ? — One at .Norway House. 3436. In what state was that ? — When I saw it there were but few people there, for they were out fishing and hunting at the open season, but I under- stand that in tlie winter season they are numerous. 3437. Mr. Kiimaird.] But from your experience your impression was that the missionaries weri very useful to the Indians ? — I believe exceedingly so. 3438. Vou visited Mr. Sujethers's missionary station several times ? — Twice ; 1 went on Sundays there. 3439. ^''■' Chrislif.] Do you know who pays the missionaries ; to whom they are responsible f -I think to the Missionary Society, but the Company give them an allowance of some kind also ; I camiot charge my memory with what the Company do give them, but probably you will get evidence upon that point from some of the clergyman, if they are in London. Colonel J. F. CroftoH. 19 ^'ay 1857. ■i \ 0.24— Sess. 2. Z4 Rear-Admiral U !!:,Sfc? 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE llear-Admirel SirC. /?aeA, F. B.!<., D. c. L. K) May 1857. m ISfMi: f Mi ill ■ ; •■( 111 Pi j!:! 1 1 I Renr- Admiral Sir George Back, r. h. s., u. c. l., called in ; and Examined. 3440. Chairman.] ARE you acquainted with the Hudson's Bay territory ?— To a certain extent I am ; but I perhaps may be allowed to mention that I have not been there for 22 years. 3441. Will you state how you came to visit it, and to what part of it you went? — I first went with my friend Sir John FrankUn, on an expedition of discovery, in 1819 to 1822. I went secondly on another expedition with Sir John l-'ranklin, from 1 82r) to the autumn of 1 827 ; and, thirdly, on an expedi- tion which I commanded myself, in search of Sir John Ross and his cpm- panions, who were then supposed to have been lost, making idtogether, I believe, about nine years that I was engaged in those expeditions. 344J. Mr. Kinnuird.] What was the period of the last expedition ? — From 1833 to the end of 1835. 344,{. Sir John Pakington.'] 1835 was the last year that you were in that part of the world ? — Yes. 3444- Chairman.'] Will you tell us generally the routes of those three expe- ditions? — The first route was from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, Cumber- land House, Fort (-hipewyan, Great Slave Lake, Fort Enterprise, Coppermine River, along the coast to Point Tumagain, thence to river Hood, across the barren lands to Fort Enterprise and Great Slave Lake. 3445. What is the most northerly point of that route?— The most northerly point is on the coast near Point Tumagain, I think, in latitude 68°, between Coppermine River and Point 'I'urnagain. Then we returned across the country, having no provision ; and it may be in the minrJ of the Committee that more than one-half of the unfortunate people perished from want of food. 3446. Where did you return to ? — To England, by York Factory. 3447. From Great Slave Lake ?— By the usual route ; exactly the same route. 3448. That was the first expedition ? — Yes. 3449. Sir John Pakington.] That was entirely a land expedition?— Yes; so were all these three expeditions ; I have been on two others, but they were by sea. 34.50. Chairmaji.] Will you describe the route of the second expedition ? — The second expedition was to Toronto, then called York, to Penetangushine, Sault Ste. Marie, Fort William (Lake Superior), the Rainy Lake, the Lake of the Woods, Fort Alexander (L-ake Winnipeg), to the Grand Rapid. Up again from the Grand Rapid to Great Slave Lake by the same 1 uute as before. From Great Slave Lake down the Mackenzie River pr.st Fort Simpson to Great Bear River; to Great Bear Lake, to Fort Franklin : thence to the western moiitli of the Mackenzie Rivtr along the coast to Ueturn Reef, being at tliat time but 140 miles from Her Majesty's ship " Blossom," tlien commanded by the late Admiral Beechy, the late President of the Geographical Society. I returned again to Norway House by the same route, and from Norway House to York Factory. 34.5 1 . And from thence to England ? —And from thence to England. 3452. Sir John Pakington.] The " Blossom" had entered by Behring's Straits? — Yes. 34,53. What time did that trip occupy ? — From 1825 to the end of 1827. 34,';4. How many months ?— Two years and three quarters altogether. Then the third expedition was from England to New York ; to .Montreal ; La Chine; Lake Nipissing ; Lake Huron, along the north shore of Lake Superior, and by exactly tlie same route as before to the Grand Rapid, that is to say, to the Sas- katchawan Uiver ; thence to Great Slave Lake as before. Then along the eastern part of Great Slave Lake, which is new, to its extremity, where I built a fort, called Fort Reliance, 'Jlience across a new country. Wit's the excep- tion of one or two points crossed by Hearne, I discovered the upper part of the Great Fish River ; the sources, in fact, of the (ireat Fish River, or the one named after myself, and I descended it to the sea. Unable to get further, I returned by the same route precisely to Canada. 34.55. You followed the Fish River to the sea? — Yes, I discovered it ; that expedition occupied about two years and seven months. 34.56. Chairman.] Then you have been pretty well all over the northern parts of the Hudson's Bay territory ? — By just simply the routes which I have mentioned to you. 3457. How III I SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 185 ion ? — From /ere in that 1 same route. ired it ; that 3457. How did you subsist during; these journiesJ-On each occasion the expedition was aided by the Hudson's Bay Company, and supplied by that Company with pemicati, and other articles for traffic with the Indians ; simply for food, to the extent that was required. 34,58. How did you travel ? — In canoes and boats, but chiefly in canoes, except along the coast. 3459. And there you walked, I suppose ? — No, we had built boats. 3460. Sir John Pakington.] In fact you travelled everywhere by water ? — All by water ; except in crossinj? the barren land^ and on detached services. 34()i. That applies to all three of those journies r — Yes. 3462. Chairman.] What did you do during the winter months ? — In the winter we were plentifully occupied in making observations, and working up surveys. 3463. Did you spend your time in the factories of the Company ? — No, not at all ; we built our own establishments, log-houses with stores and places for our men. 34(14. What number of men did you take with you generally ?— From '20 to 22 on the former expeditions, on the latter not so many. 3465. Sir John Pakington.'] Do you mean that that was the whole strength of your party ?— Twenty-two altogether. 3466. Chairman.] Were they Europeans or Indians ? — Chiefly Canadian vovageurs ; we had some three or four Europeans with us ; on the last occasion I had foiir artillerymen, and very excellent men they were, who volunteered from Montreal. 34()7. Were you much troubled by the Indians in these expeditions ? — Not in the least. 3468. During the whole time r — During the whole time. 3469. Sir John Pakington.] Did you see many ? — I saw the Indians who frequented our establishments for the purpose of barter, chiefly for providing us with provisions ; but they came in great numbers, that is to say, 300 or 400 at the utmost, and from that down to half-a-dozen. 3470. Did you always remain stationary during the winter months at those log-houses which you erected ? — Yes, for the purpose of making magnetical and other observations, which at that time were of great importance to science. 347 1 . Chainnan.] Can you give the Committee any account of the climate of these regions : — There is a great resemblance in the climate of those places. Great Bear Lake, Fort Franklin, Fort Enterprise, and Fort Beliance. The extreme temperatures at the two former places, as far as I remember (for really I have not referred to it), were 52 minus zero, and 57 minus zero ; but at Fort Reliance, a place which I built myself, the minimum of five thermometers was 70° below zero, or 102° below the freezing point of Fahrenheit. 3472. Sir John Pakington.] That was the maximum r — Yes. 3473. How long did that last r — Not quite a day. 3474. Chairman.] What degree of latitude was that in ? — 62„ 46'. 3475. Sir John Pakington.] At what season of the year was it that your ther- mometer reached that very low temperature ? — In January ; I do not exactly recollect the date ; but I believe it was the 1 7th. 3476. Mr. Christjf.] Was that the year when you wintered on the Fish River ? — We did not winter on the Great Fish River ; it is scarcely possible to do so. There is no wood on that river ; therefore you cannot winter there. 3477. Chairman.] What opinion did you form of the soil of this country; its power of producing ? — At the extreme north you get beyond the latitude of the woods.; but at Fort Reliance there was wood, more or less stunted, pine, and some others of considerable growth. The soil itself was gravelly, with a mossy surface, but sterile, certainly. 3478. Were you at the Red River Settlement? — I was never at Red River. 3479. Were you on the Saskatchawan?— On the Saskatchawan I passed a short time at Cumberland House and Pine Island I^ke in the autumn of 1819 with my friend Franklin ; at that time there was merely a garden for herbs, and a little barley was grown, but nothing beyond ; that was in 1819 and 1820. 0.34— Sess. 2. A A , 3480. With near>Ai1iniriil QiTG.Back,r.n.t., D.C.L. 19 May 1857. I Ki- ■•li T' 1 • 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i ! i: U i'; i Rear Admiral Sir ti. Back, r. a.g, D.C.I.. ig May 1857- 34H0. With respect to communication between the Hudson's Bay territory , and Europe, you have been all the different ways, have you not (— I have been merely the routes which i have mentioned. 348 ! . You have been from York Factory ? — Yeb. 348.'. From Fort William ? — Yes. 34''<3. And from Canada by Lake Nipissing f — Yes. 34 S4. What do you say of those three routes ; which is the best in order to get to the nei|;hbourho()d of Lake Winnijieg and the l!ed River? — Both routes are bad, but if I were to prefer the one mule to the other, that is to say, if 1 had anything to convey to Red Hiver, I should unquestionably prefer the route from York Faiilory. 3.j8.i. Rather tlian from Fort William ? — Rather than from Fort William by the Lake of the Woods. 34SU. S\r Jofiii l^akingfon.'] Why?— There is an easier access; there is less difficulty in portages, with the exception of one or two falls ; but 1 sliould say there is less difficulty, and there are fewer im]iediinents. 34S7. ( /iiiirman] W hat opinion did you form of the government of the Hudson's Bay Company from what you saw of its effects?— In the first place, when we went there, there were two companies; they were then in a very disturl)ed state, and it was impossilile for us to form any opinion ; we ourselves were not acquainted with the government of the C ompaiiy ; afterwards, as far as I saw of the conduct of the Hudson's Bay Company throughout the line of route which 1 travelled, and I frequently resided at tlie different establishments with the chief factors and other influential servants of that Con)pany, 1 saw nothinii but the utmost kindness to the Indians and fairness in dealing; I never knew an Indian in want turned away without his wants being- supjjlied, wliether he had furs to give in return or not; indeed, I have seen strong instances of great benevolence on the part of the Hudson's Bay officers. 3488. Can you form any opinion of the titnesis of that country for colonisa- tion ? — None whatever ; it never entered into one's imagination 22 years ago. 348(). Sir, /o/in Pahiiiyloii.] 1 presume that during the greater portion of these periods of between two and three )ears which each of tiiese excursions occupied you were stationary on account of weather, were you nut ? ^'es. 34()0. Can you give the Committee any aj)i)roximation to the prcjportion of time ill each of those trips that you were actually travelling r— Yes ; about from the middle of Ajjril to the end of Octolier. 3401. Each year? — Each year. 3402. The rest c '' the year you wen- stationary ? — Yes ; we were suflfitneutly occui)ied in maldiif. observations and procuring food, and that with difficulty. S4\):i. How did you procure food through those long winters ?— It was pre- cisely there wliere the aid of the Hudson's Bay Company came in to us so ojjportunely. The Indians known to them came to our establisliments, where, I ought to mention, that we had oue of the olhcers of the Hudson's Bay Company attaciud to tlic exjjedition. 3494. Always.' — Always; and this officer coiulucted the trade entirely, we ourselves not at all interfering in it. 34g",. Did you see much of the Indians during these various excursions ■ — From time to time. 34()ti, Should you say, considering the nature of your object, and the portion^ of country which you explored, that you had any good meansof judging wliether or not the government of the Hudson's Bay Coni])any was beneficial to those districts ! — l)ecid(dly so, inasmuch as the Indians must have starved without the aid of the Hudson's Hay Company. 3407. Did any instances come under your observation of great suffering or privation on the part of the Indians during the winter months? — I heard of their suffering. 34()8. Did you see anything of the sort ?— I saw none my.self, mixe and except the few Indians wlio resi^rted to Fort Reliance and to Fort Franklin, and indeed to l'"ort Enterprise, seeking: relief from our stores. 3jO(). Were you at all at F(n-t Rehance during the summer months ?— Only in the" spring and autumn; the intervening part was necessarily occupied in exploring the country to and from the coast. 3500. Did 1 9 May 1857. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S HAY COMPANY. 187 3 lOO. Did you see enough of Fort Reliance to enable you to jud^e vehether RearAdmirnl or not that is a neighbourhood which would bear cultivation during the suiiimer HitO-Bmc*, *■».•., months ?— I should say decidedly not. n.«»L. 3501. On account of climato f - Chiefly on account of climate, but also on account of the conformation of the land, which is so interspersed with rocks ; it is granitic 3 1 2. What did you find as to the climate around Fort York ; would it do for cultivation ? —That is altogether different ; there is an alluvial soil around Fort York ; it is a low swampy eountry. I speak with diflidence upon this point, but I doubt whether it would do for cultivation, because the soil is generally frozen to some two or three feet below the surface. 3.503. Even during summer ? — In summer. I remember perfectly well seeing a trench dug and the soil was frozen, to the best of my memory, a considerable depth, two or three feet ; immediately at the surface it was not, but below that, it was. 3;,<'4. And probably never was otherwise than frozen ?— I should say not. 3,50 V On the whole, I apprehend from your answers that you do not think that even Fort York would be a favourable position for colonisation? — Unques- tionably not. 3,'i()t>. Mr. Kiniiaird.] Yon mentioned that you had 22 companions with you ; did you bring them all back hving ? — In the last expedition, witli the exception of one of the artillerymen, all returned. On the second expedition we also lost one man ; that, was from sickness ; but on the first expedition, which I dare say you may remember, in 1819 and 182'i, the greater part died from starvation : they fell down in convulsions and actually died from want of food. 3 -,07. More from want of food than from the climate ? — Entirely from want of f(io(l and clothing. 3.508. You got beyond the supplies of the Company:— It was a tissue of misfortunes altogether; the Indians had not been successful in fulfilling our measures ; they had not provided the meat, the reindeer, which we had every reason to hope and to expect they would have provided, and our house. Fort Enterprise, was left entirely desolate. 3.509. Have you reason to think that many Indians iu that same neighbourhood also died in that year n" — They did, but they were somewhat superstitious, and they heard strange tales ; sickness got amongst them, and they went from one place to another in search of food themselves. 3510. Did yon find a gnat difference between the Indians that you met far north away from the station, and those who were in the habit of coming imme- diately near the station ? —Not so great one as one would imagine ; very little indeed ; it was so shadowy as scarcely to be perceptible. 35 1 1. Then you did not see any effects of civilisation upon them r — Not upon the Indians. 3,5 1 2. You said that they came in for aid ? — Yes. 35 1 3. Did the Indians seem to know and feel that they had a right to come to the Company for aid in point of distress when they were starving ? — They seemed always to feel that they could fall back upon tiie clemency and the berevolence of the white man at any extremity ; that as long as he had anything to sjjare in his store the Indian was certain to be relieved. 3 ") 1 4. From your experience, was the feeling of the Indian towards the officers of the Company, the white men, very good r— Very good. I never knew an instance to the contrary. 3') 15. When you first made the expedition you said that there were some differences with the North-West Company ; did you ever softer from that causer— Never in the slightest degree, although I had to go and tuke a very active part in it, being my friend Franklins first lieutenant at that time ; but going from fort to fort we received ecpial aid from the one as from the other ; indeed 1 remember with great gratitude many acts of kindness and of informa- tion conveyed to my friend Franklin and myself by officers of the North-West Company. 351 1). Mr. Roi'buck.l You say that the Indians derived great benefit from ihe Company. How was that ?— I mean as far as regards the supplies which were brought to them from England ; blankets, ammunition, clothing, &c., and the luxury of tobacco. 0.24— Sess. 2. A A 2 3517' Supposing 4^ i88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE D.C.L. 19 Muy 1857. w. Hear.Admiral Sli 7- Supposing there were no Company there, and the Indians were allowed Sir O, Batk, ».«.§., to dio as they liked, would they be worse off?— Unquestionably. I think if that ever happened they would be almost decimated. 3,5 1 8. How then did they iret on when there was no Company ?-T-Then they were accustomed to rely upon their own exertions; they used the bow and arrow ; they knew nothing of fire-nrras, and consequently were self-dependent; and being self-dependent, they maintained themselves at that time. 3/; 1 9. liefore the Hudson's Hay Company had that territory I suppose the country wa<« peopled ? - Certainly. 3.'")20. And they were as happy then as they are now i — In all probability. S.VJi. No that the incoming of the Company was really no benefit to the country • — That I will not pretend to answer ; but as regards the moral con- dition of the untutored Indian, in all probability he was as happy then as he is now. 3.';2J. Sir Jofin Pakington.'] Is it your opinion that the sufferings of the Indians, of which vve have heard, are really in fact caused by their having become dependent on the white man for ammunition, and for those new weapons which the white man has taught them to use? — In a great measure. 3,5 -3- before tlie white man was there they had the never failing bow and arrow, and plenty of food r — Certainly. 35^4. .Mr. Chiixty.] I think you have said sufficient to show that you believe in the famines which are stated to have taken place amongst the Indians ? — Yes ; from time to time. 3.'',-";. Do you think that they have been very numerous?— I can scarcely answer that (|uestion, having been ao long away from the country, but during the time that I was there they were not frequent ; in little districts occasionally there was a want of animals, and privation followed. 3')2''. You sustained privation yourself? — Very great. 3527. Did you hold any office in the Company at the time when you made these expeditions ? -On my last expedition the Company were kind enough to give me a commission in their service as a chief trader, for the obvious purpose of placing in my hands sufficient authority to make demands upon their posts whenever I might go to them. 3,528. For supplies?— For anything that I wanted; I have that commission now. 35^9. Mr. Edward KUice.] There is no emolument attached to it, I suppose? — I am afraid not. 3,')30. Mr. J. H. Gurney^ Did you, in the course of your travels, meet with anything that tlu"ew any light on the question as to whether the whale fishery could be carried on with any advantage in the Hudson's Bay ? — No, I did not. 3531. Sir JoAm Pakington.] How was the health of yourself and your party affected by that intense cold which you have described when the thermometer was 70° below zero ? — I cannot *say that our iiealth was affected differently to what it would be in any other extreme cold ; perhaps the appetite was con- siderably increased. 3'i32. But the iiealth was not injuriously affected by the mere degree of cold ? — Not at the time ; but probably that, with the other sufferings, con- tributed to produce sickness afterwards for a considerable period. " 3.5 'i.3- I presume that although the time for which the thermometer stood at 70° below zero was short, yet throughout all the winter you suffered constant and intense cold ? — Yes. 3.534- W hat was the mean range of the thermometer during the three or four winter montiis ? — I am not prepared to answer that question without reference, but I think it was 18° below. 3,53,5- It was always below zero ? — Yes ; I believe the lowest mean tempe- rature was 2H" below zero. 3536. Mr. Christy.'] Have you nny means of knowing whether the Indian tribes are decreasing in consequence of these famines ? — No, I have no means of ascertaininij- that, 3.537- Not from your own knowledge •— From my own knowledge, here and there, and amongst small tribes and detachments of tribes, I heard of a dimi- nution having taken jjlace from want of food ; but they were only detaclied parties, therefore I cannot form an estimate of the whole. 3.538. Did commission SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 189 3538. Did you take any pniiiH to ascertain whether that woh the fact? — Yes ; amongst those detached parties to which I refer. 3."; '1 And those, you say, were from six to 300 or 400? — Yes, those who (req- " dour fort; but they generally came in smaller parties from 15 to thret- tr four. 3540. Sir John I'tikingtoii.] U'hat was the temperature in summer in those northern regions ? — The temperature in summer varies very much. I have known it go ui» with a Fahrenheit thermometer as far as 102* plus. 3541. In the sun ?— Of course; but from 48* to 60", I should say, in the extreme of summer. 3742. In the nun? — In the shade; and in ver}' oppressive weather; during thunder storms, perhaps to 67. 3.i43. In the course of your journey from Fort Reliance down to the mouth of the Back River, what should you say would be the mean summer tem- perature there in the shade ; 50* r — I should say it would not exceed 60", if so much. 3544. And occasionally the sun was very powerful ?— Very powerful ; burn- ingly 80. 3 -,45. Did the snow disappear from those regions? — The snow disappears entirely from the land between Fort Reliance and the sea. 3546. All the way to the North Sea? — All the way to the Polar Sea. 3547. What was the depth of snow in the winter at Fort Reliance? — From 1 J foot to 3 i feet in some places ; but in sheltered places much more. 3,')48. With a hard surface ? — With a hard surface in spring. 3';4(). Mr. Chrixty.] With regard to blankets and various other articles of clothing, which you say were distributed, and some articles of luxury, such as tobacco, are the Committee to understand that they were given by the Com- pany except in barter r — Speaking of the Company, they were only on special occasions given as presents to the head men or chiefs, and others ; certain presents were liberally made after their having brought in good supplies of furs, beavers, &c. ; then certain presents were invariably made, and the rest was disposed of in barter. 3.550. Not in respect of the necessities of these persons who were in a des- titute condition from the state of the weather? — No, not from their being destitute, because thiy frequently came to the fort ; indeed, generally in the summer, in very good condition ; not badly off in clothing even, but still the presents were given. 3551. I understood you to say that in cases where there was great destitution the native population were in the habit of falling back on the clemency of the white man? — Yes. 3.552. And they received from the Company articles, such as blankets, and even the luxury of tobacco? — Yes. 3.553. But that is not the case except as barter ?- With certain exceptions. 3554. What are the exceptions r— if, for instance, an Indian with his family had been suffering considerably for some time, and had got, perhaps, behind with his furs, they frequently received gratuities, I believe, from every post in the country, and these were often given as presents. .15.5.5' Mr. Edward Eilice.] Have you ever heard of a ease where a star\'ing Indian was refused food r — Never in my life ; on the contrary, a starving Indian is invariably relieved, and sometimes to the detriment of those at the Fort ; indeed, in my own case it was so. 355G. air John Pakiiii/ton.] Did you yourself see much of the dealing between the Hudson's Bay Company's officials and the Indians for furs ? — No, 1 did not ; I was present on various occasions, hut I merely saw what passed. 3,j.57' You arc not able to give us any information as to the rate of prices ? — No, I did not conceive that was a matter in which I was concerned ; being there under Govcrunient, and on a scientific expedition, 1 telt that it did not become me to pry into the mode of conducting the irade of the Hudson's Bay Company, it was sufficient for me that I leceived every aid and kindness from them. Rra '•Admiral SirG.i^ocJl, r.B.i., D.C. L. igMay 1857. ■H: mm 0.24— Sess. 2. A A I ■ 90 MINLTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN UEFORE THE Jovis, a I* die Maii, 1857. MRMBRRB PRB8ENT. Mr. ni.irkhurn. Mr. Chrinty. Ml. Hdwiiid ElliiT. Mr. Ciiurli'H Fitxwilliani. ViHt'oiint Goderii h. Mr. OrcgHoii. Mr. Gm)i>iiii. Mr. J. H. Ournev. Mr Percy lltrbrrt. Ml. Kiiiniiird. .Mr. Liiboiiclii're. Mr. Ldwr. Mr. MMtlicHoii. Ml. Uiiiliui'k. ViKcoiiiit Sandoii. Lord Staiilt'|. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE i.n the Chair. Mr. Jumts Cooper, colled in ; and Examined. Mr. J. Cooper. 35 ')8. Chairman.'] YOU are acquainted with Vancourer's Island, I believe •— Yes. ai M»y 1857. 35r|,) WiU you have the goodness to state to the Committee what opjjortuni- ties you have had of becoming so acquainted with it? — I have Ix'en a resident there for six years as a resident and culonist. 3,'i6o. What six yiars were those? — From the spring of 1851 until tlie spring of 1857. 3561. Have yi)U still property there? — Yes. 3.562. Do you intend to return to the island? — Not at present, at all events. 3503. Were you in connexion with the goveniraent of the colony ?— 1 was a Member of Council there for five years. mdA. Are yt«u connected with the llud.son's Bay Company in any manner? — Not at all ; I was formerly in their service in command of their vt ssels ; but I went out there decidtd'.y independent, on my own account. 3 ,r»5. Are there any statements with rej^aru to Vancouver's Island which you are desirous of making to this Committee? — I have some; but 1 am not prepared to give them to-day ; I arrived in town only ,1 few hours ago. On what particular questions are the Committee desirous of having informa- tion? 35('6. That is forvou; we shall be glad to have any information upon the state of Vancouver's Island ?— I am prepared to answer any questions, to tiie best of my ability, which are put in form. 3';('7- Did yoti pursue tlie business of an agriculturist in Vancouver's Island? —Yes, I did. 3 '■,08. What extent of land did you occupy?— I had a farm of about 300 acres. 3,'i09. \\'as it your own property ? — It was decidedly my own property, but thert' are emliargues upon it at present, as the land it not paid for. 3.=,7o. ^'ou bought it of the Company, 1 i)resume? — Yes. 3)71. Where is it i-ituated ? — In the district called Metchosen, about seven miles from the settlement. 3.-,;2. What is your opinion of the soil and climate of Vancouver's Island, and of its capabilities for a settlement on a large scale?— Its climate, in every sense of the word, is superior to that of Great Britain, and its capabilities of a;;riculture are of a considerable extent. Tlie land is partially wooded and partially open with prairie. There is plenty of room there for a large i)opu- lation. 3573. In point of fact, the population has increased very slowly, I believe ? — It has decreased since ( have been there. 3,')7.i. To what causes do you attribute that ? — The mal-administration of the government of the Hudson's Bay Company. 3575. To what particulars do you especially refer ? —There is no encourage- ment for immigration into the country. Many people have come to Van- couver's 1 ibout seven couver s SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE lirDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 191 couvt-r'H Inland, nnd Imvf left it ; they have approved «)f the soil, of the climnte, and of tlie en|)iibilities of the ct)untr\', but they have objected to beiii)? subject to the Hudson's Hiiy {'omp my. If the British (toveriimeiif were established there, that would be the otdy necressury step for tlie British (Jovernment to take. There are thousands of people in tlie neighbourhood of San Franeiseo and Califoroia who would gladly go to n BritiHli colony, provided it was und<'r a new administration. 3';7(). You mean if Vancouver's Island was administered ilirectly aa a British colony, and not inilirectly under the (!onirol of the Hudson'H Bay Company? — Pirt'ctly. , ,77. Do you believe that to be the general feeling of the inhabitants ?— I am sure of it. j/i/S. Will you ])oint out to the Committee in what manner the adminis- tration of the Hudson's Bay Company operates to check coh)ni8at,i(m ? — In the first place, with respect to their courts of justice, the p«ople have not eonfidence ill them; there are only a small nunilier, but nevertheless they are mmnimouH in their opinion, they have no eonfidence in the courts of justice; o\ir su])reme judf^e has not been educated to the bar ; I believe all the knowledge that he gains is from books ; for instance, before lie can d«'cide upon a ease, he has to refer to his books even in the most common case. {'■,71). I believe most judges are in the habit of referring to books before they dieide cases, are tliey not ? I dare say they are ; he has never been educated as a hiwyer ; that is the grand thing. .•^/jHo. I>o you not think that under any circumstances the poptdation of Vancouver's Island would have slowly increased, from California holding out great attractions to settlers just now ? -That no doubt has been a great drawback to Vancouver's Island, but what we have felt as the greatest drawback is being omitted in the ( aiiadiiin Beciprocity Treaty; therefore we lue cut out, we have no market for our exports ; it would have been a great boon to the colony had we been adnutted at the same time as Canada was admitted. ^/jSi. What American markets would you have supplied; do you mean Californiii princii)ally ? —We should then be 011 the same terms as a .State of the United States. a^S.'. To what American markets do you anticipate that you would be able e9|icci.dly to export your produce ?- San Francisco, in ])articular. 3/)H3. Have you had any opportunity of becoming acipiainted with the mineral resources of Vancouver's Isluiidr — To some extent I have. It abounds in coal, and theie is a very large colliery belonging to the Company now at a place about 7<* miles to the north, called Nanaimo, or Colville Town. 3,'iS4. That is coal, I believe, of very hue quality ?— Yes; it is good for all purposes of generating steam, 1 believe. 'M)^!}- Is there any exi)ort at all of jiroduce to the Californian market now from Vancouver's Island ? — ^o.le whatever. The competition is so great from the Fuget Sound, that it would be impossible, in fact, for us to compete with them, as on nearly all the commodities which we could e.\port there is a duty of 25 or 30 per cent. 3.5Ht). A differential duty?— Yes. 3587. You wouhl chiefly send bread-stutls and timber ? -And coal and salt fish. 3.-i8S. Is there a differential duly to that extent upon your coal ? — Twenty percent.; but it is merely the Hudson's Bay Comjiany at present who have a coal mine there. Nevertheless, if it were admitted free into >an I'rancisco, it would be a great boon to the country ; it would create a trade. 3')^[}. The rivers and waters of Vancouver's Island abound in fish, I believe ? — I hi y do ; there are no riveis in Vancouver's Island of any extent ; but the Straits of Juan dc Fuca and all the salt water inlets around Vancouver's Island abound in fish. 3,')()0. Are there not salmon in the rivers ?— Salmon are caught in salt water, and iilso in Fraser's Riwr on .ne mainland, in resjiect i-f which the Hudson's Bay Company have the c:,clusive right of trade, very raucli to the drawback of the settlers and colonists there. 3,91. Are there many Indians on the island? — I should presume there are something like 18,000 or '20,000 on the ishmd. 3592. Do they give you any trouble, or is order preserved between them and 0.24 — Sess. 2. A A 4 the Mr. J. Cocprr, «i May it^y. Iif7 MINUTES OF EVFDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THK m :1] 'm0 w'mi Mr.J.Cooptr. the white nu'Ji m-iH-rnlly ? — V\> have never hiul nuich trouble from them ; but a geriouM trouble i» uiiticipntecl, unlcHM there ih u force there to k(C|) them in •I M>y i«a7- check. 3.193 ^Vhy 80? — HecaUHe they nre excited by the warn now prevailing on the continent close to their bordent ; ho much so, thiit the IiidiunM are (|uite cogiiiHRnt of the fnctM which are taking place on the opposite side within u few miles of them. 3')<)4. I believe there bus been a very HcriouH and destructive war carried on on the American sicle of the frontier between tlie Indians and the white men ? — Yep, a very barborou!* war. :M}\)5- But hitherto there has been abHolute peace on the British mh of the frontier? — We have only had one or two little ciifliculties, yet they have alwiiyii ended comparatively quietly, and we have had very little trouble wil'i theni; we have occasionally had the assistance of a man-of-war up tliere, and we have checked it in its bud. 35()(i. Are you a^.are of any instances which have lately occurred in which individual outra^^es have been perpetrated by red men in Vancouver's Island, and where they have been brought to justice with the assent of the tribes, uiid without ony difficulty i — Yes, in two instances. 3')07. Do you think it very important to be able to maintain that influence over these tribes ?— It certainly would be ; but I am afraid it will not last nmch longer unless we have a force permanently settled on the island. At present we have only one constable ; we have no military force there at all, so much so that the settlers are squatted about the country, and we are liable to get <\ir throats cut at almost any moment's notice. 3,1598. You say that you have one coni-table only ; in what way wen ilnso Indians appre*>ended ? — By the assistance of the men-of-war ; it could not have been done without. Her Majesty's ship " Trincomaleu " was the vessel that went up last, and on the former occasion Her Majesty's ship " Tlietis." 3.'59Q. When you left the colony had the constitution been fully brought into effect in the way it now is? — Nominally. There was a legislative assembly constituted, but we could not muster a sufficient number of members to At at it"; there were only six or seven members that were eligible for the position. 3600. What was the number of voters.- — 1 suppose every member was returned by one or two voters. 3601. What was the number of white men altogether in the island?— Not more than 250 or 300. 5f)0j. Do you know what ♦be qualitication for being an elector of Vancou- ver's Island is?— Yes ; that lie should hold 20 acres of land. 3r)03. What did the constituency, with that qualification, give in point of numbers; do you remember?— There were not a great many holding that quantity of land. 3604. And of those the greater number, I believe, are servants of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Yes, most of them ; there are no free settlers at Vancouver's Island. The mechanics and tradespeople that have gone out there, under the employ of the Hudson's Bay Company, instead of returning to Great Britain have bought land there, and remain. I, and a gentleman of the name of (jrant, Captain Grant, were the only persons who complied with the prospectus of the Company. I took out men from England with me. 3605. In short, the sum of your opinion is, that it ' ,\\u he desirable to con- stitute Vancouver's Island a ^^-itish colony, in the or Jnu.r' 'innner, an(' U govern it with the institutions which usually belon^ Lj u >.'•») '■ colony i.i xx- those circumstances r — Most assuredly. 3606. Do you think it would be desirable to comprehend in any stich colony any part of the mainland adjoining Vancouver's Island ? — Yes ; I consider that Eraser's River should be thrown open into Thompson's River district. 'lere is a large beautiful district called Thompson's River, about 150 miles or ao ' • «n) the mainland ; it lies in about the same latitude as Vancouver's l-ibo . Vi'i think that there is a considerable extent of country upon the mair.lnad, adjoining s^'an-ouver's Island, which is calculated for the purposes of setlit H) ant ? — Yes ; one of the most beautiful countries in the world. 3608. Is it as good as Vancouver's Island itself, do you think ? — I think it is better; it is more open land. Vancouver's Island is broken; it is very heavily SELECT COMMITTKK ON THE HIDSON'S MAY COMPANY. i.)3 land?— Not of Vancou- licavily tinibcieil, niid it w.iild rp<|uire gnut cxpeiino in clenriiig some portionH ^U. J. Cutptr. oi it before it could bo ma i available lor agricultural purpoijeit. ;)»top. In there any prairiu land in \ancouver'« Island? — Ycji, but not to uny " May 181,7. great extent. ;](ii(). You Ktatrd tlint you thoufrlit that the administration of the law wan not satisfactory to the colonistn at Mie present nmnient I — Decidedly not. 3(»ii. Will you inform u» whj. alteration in tiie system you think would 1)0 advantageous ?— I think that if a supreme judge were appointed from this country, a man in whom the British Oovtrnment had coiitidi'nce, it would give confidence to the people there, a I they would '>!■ satisfied ; at present it xi happens that the gentleman holding; ilmt appointment i-^ the brutiurin-law of the (iovernor (who is also a pud servant) ind pnid by tin- Hudson's I!;iv Company, and therefore many cas that come under his notice of couise must clash with the inteiest)* of individuals. ;)bi2. Do you state that you think that these circumstances wL.rli vou have mentioned cast a suspicion over the decisions of thf jodce, which you think ohjt'ctionable ; arc there any of his decisions which you think there is any just reason for complaining of? — Yes; there is the ca!(': — Mr. Cameron. 36 It). Do you know by whom he was appointed? — He was noniinateil by Mr. Douglas and appointed by the Queen, I believe, confirmed by the Queen. 36 1 7. The Colonial Office ? -The Colonial Office. 3618. Mr. Crogan.l You have stated that you do not consider that the geiule- nian now holding the office of judge there is acquainted with law. On what grounds do you base that opinion ? — Because he is not a lawyer. 3619. Has he been educated as a lawyer? — Never; he was educated as a draper, I believe. 3620. How long has he been in this situation ? — He has been holding thai office now for al> iut four years. 3621. C/iamyi(in.'\ Was he never called to the bar? — Never in any [)art or the world. Ht was formerly a superintendent of an estate in the West Indies iu Demerara. I am prepared to take my oath that he was not a lawyer. 3622. What is hi« salary? — He receives 150/. a year from the Hudson's Bay Company, as superintendent of their coal mines ; clerk to the coal mines. He receives also another 100/. per annum from what is called the Licence Fund. There arc heavy licences from the publicans ; they pay about 120 /. per annum. I believe that gives an income to the colony of about 400/. or 500/. per annum, and he recei\es 100/ out of it. 3623. Does be re»'eive nothing as judge? — Nothing except that salary. 3624. 1m sht.rt, ho is a magistrate rather than a judge ? — No; he holds his commission as chief judge. 3625. Mr. Grogan.\ Does he adjudicate on all classes of questions thai may arise in the island ?— Yes, he is the supreme authority. 0.24— Sess. 2. B B 3()2(3. Criminal '94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Cooper, 21 May 1857. Hi . ,1' '"■ 11 3(")26. Criminal and civil ? — Civil only, as supreme ,judge.| 3(v27. Has he ever exercised that authority? — No, not in a criminal case. 3(>'28. To what extent has he gone in civil cases? — I believe that the reason he has never acted is hecause all tnc cases now pending have been put back as far as possible. My opinion is, that they are afraid that he should act, lor fear of a collision. 3629. Viscount Goderich.'] Do you suppose that he has power to sentence a man to death ? — No, I do not think that; I believe the c-^cutive authority upon that rests with the Governor. 3t»3t). Mr. Grogan.] Was this gentleman judge of the island at the time of some disturbance which occurred about 185.'3, when two Indians were hanged for murder ? — No, it was the Governor who acted, Mr. Douglas. 363 1 . Was he at that time judge and governor I — He was the only authority there. This Mr. Cameron is judge in civil cases, but he is one of the magis- trates for all criminal ca.ses. 3632. In fact no criminal case has been adjudicated upon by the judge since his appointment r — No. ^^i'.y ChairmanJ] Do you think, upon the whole, that the conduct of the government of Vancouver's Island towards the Indians is humane and judicious? — Humane probably, but not judicious. 3634. In what respects injudicious ?--If an Indian commits any depredation he is bribed ; there is no authority, no force, to punish him ; and therefore rnther than he should show a disposition to be angry, he will perhaps get two or three blankets given to him to make friends with them a^^ain. jt'j.'j- You think that the policy pursued towards the Indians is of too gentle a description ; thiit there is not sufficient firmness ? — It may be of a description which would answer the Hudson's iJay (Joni()any's purposes sufficiently well in the interior, or en the continent of America, but not among a settlement of British subjects. 3636. But is not this fact patent and notorious, that on the American side of the frontier there have been wars (jf the most barbarous and cruel kind between the white and the red man ; and that on the British side of the frontier, upon the whole, order has been preserved, and tiiere has not been, I believe, a drop of blood shed in conflict between the white and the red man.' — Yes; but will you guarantee that that is going to remain ? 3637. Mr. GrogauJ] Do you speak of your own knowledge, when you say that when an Indian commits an offence he is bribed to keep him in good humour? — T do. 3638. Can you give an instance of the kind r — Many. 3639. Mention one within your own knowledge ? — I will give my own case. I had some property stolen from me, and the man, instead of being punished after an investigation, was told not to do it again, and therefore he was let off. 3640. Chairman.] That is what you mean by being bribed ; not sufficiently punished:- But in many cases tlley are really bribed; they have property given to them so that they may not create a disturbance ; there is no force or autho- rity in the country to punish or check them. 3('>4i. You do not mean that if an Indian has committed an offence, he has a reward given iiim for having committed that ofTencu ? — It appears so. 3642. .^lr. Grogaii.] In the instance that you refer to, of property stolen from yourself, what redress did you get ? — None ; I lost the property. 3643. Chairman.'] Are the Indians thievish in their habits? — All of them. 3644. Viscount Sandon.] But without any military force, and with only one constable, would it have been safe for tiie Company to punish the Indian r — No, decidedly not ; that is the reason they do not punish the Indians, because they are afraid of the Indians retaliating. The Governor (in his official capacity) admitted, that his anxiety for the safety of the colony caused him many sleep- less nights. 3645. Mr. Edwai'l Ellicc.'] Do you know any cases of Indians having been punished by the Conifiany ? — Yes, one or two. 3646. Chairman. ] T think you stated a short time ago, that you were cogni- sant of two cases where serious offences Imd been committed by Indians, where those Indians had been apprehended and brought to justice ? — Yes; but that has not been by the Hudson's Bay Company, but by Her Majesty's ships. 3647. It SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 10,5 3647. Tt was (lone doubtless through the instrumentality of Her Majesty's ship which happened to l)e on the station, hut it was done by the authority of the local goveiiinient, was it not ? — In one instance, when the " Thetis " was there, Captain Kuper, who was in command, had to write several letters before he could prevail on Mr. Douglas to act. 3648. Mr. a rogtin.] Wiiat was the instance in question ; speak of your own knowludije r — One man had been killed ; he had been shot ; he was a shepherd. 3t)4(). Was that in 1853 r — It might have been 1852; the fail of 1852 or the spring of 1853. 36.50. Chairman.'] M'hat was the recent instance whicii occurred the other day .' — A short time ago, probably a twelvemonth ago, there was a man fired at: lie was wounded, but not mortally; the man recovered; in that case the man who had fired at him was hung by the assistance of the force there of one of Her Majesty's ships, the " Trincomalee." 36.5 1. An Indiiin fired? — An Indian shot at a white man, evidently with an intent to kill ; but it was, fortunately, not a mortal wound. 36.52. What occurred: — With the assistance ot the "Trincomalee" there was a proper force sent up, and that man was apprehended. 36,')3. What was done with him r — The Indian was hung. 36,54. Mr. Roebuck.'] How was he tried ?- By a jury, and the Governor acted as judge; the Governor was the executive; he holds the execative autiioritv. 365.5. That is a judicial authority, the trying of him ? — Yes. 36.50. The hanging of him is executive: — Yes. 3657. C/imriii/in.] I think you stated that this punishment of the Indian [.reduced no had effect upon the minds of the tribe generally : — No ; they probably believed that it was all riglit ; tliey believed that it was correct; that the man should die. 365S. They believed that justice was done ?— They believed that justice was done ; but the Indian character is very susceptible, and they are just as liable to retaliate, perhaps at a day's notice ; a very little thinj^ perhaps will rouse the Indian blood; and unless there are a number of white people there, there is no force really to show an opposition to them. If 400 or 500 Indians come down, w hat force have we '.' There is a settlement here, and anotiier there, scattered all over the country ; the only legitimate force in the place is one constable. 3659. Mr. Eduard EHice.] Do not you know that in the case which you have mentioned, the man was hanged with the consent of the chief of his tribe ? — Yes ; but I believe that the chief himself was bribed ; that he had a number of blankets given to him after the man was hung, or before. 3660. Chairman.] Do you know that? — I could not swear it, but that is the general belief by the people. 3661. Mr. Grogan.] Does your complaint of the management of the Hudson's Bay Company in this department arise from there beinii an insufficient force for the protection of the inhabitants ? — Yes. 3662. Is that the sum and substance of the complaint ? — No ; the sum and substance of our complaint is, that we are exposed to danger from the treachery of the Indians ; that we have no proper constituted courts ; that the Government and management of the Hudson's Bay Company is substantially and radically wrong, deterring (from their powerful monopoly) the advancetuent of the colony ; that we were not admitted in the Canadian reciprocity treaty; and we have found by practical experience the incompatibility of a powerful Company attempting to colonise. 3663. Lord Stanley.] Your evidence comes to this, that the colony is weak ; that the Indians are numerous, and that therefore a policy of conciliation has been, of necessity, adopted towards them? — It has. 36(54. Mr. Rui'hnck.] But did you not also say that the person who was appointed judge was incompetent : — 1 did. 3665. That is an addition to all the other things :— Of course. 3666. Mr. Uro^an.] On the occasion of the trial and execution of the man whom you have just alluded to, did the chief judge of the country take any part whatever in that trial ? — He was up there with the Governor. 361)7. Did he preside?- No. 3668. Did he take any part in the examination? — Not that I know of. 0.24— Sess. 2. " B n 2 3669. Mr. Mr. J. Cooper. 31 May 1857. n 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE iiiM'< fN M Mi <\ lis m Mr. y. Cooper. 3tid(). Ml". Eikovd Ellicc] Were you there ?— No ; it is some "0 miles from tiie settlement. 21 -May 1857. 3(170- How then do you know that he did not take part ?— Because there were plenty of people there that 1 knew who told me. 3{")7i. Mr. Grogan.] What may be the salary of tiie one constable who is tiiere? — Probably some 35/. ])er annum, and his provisions found him. 3072. Vou spoke of a considerable income being derived from licences issued to public-houses; what is the annual licence of a public-house there r — £.120 for a retail dealer. 3073. Is that the amount of the licence in each case r— It is 120/. in each case for every house licensed. 3674. I Jo you mean that if I wanted to establish a public-house there I should have to pay a licence of 120 /. ? — I do. 307,5. Is there any land given with it ? — No. 3t)7t). Is there a house .'--No. 3677. I must build the house r — You must build the house and then pay 120/. for the privilege of selling liquor. 3078. And I must buy the land? — Vou must buy the land in addition. 3679. When I have bought the land and built the house and paid the licence, what position am 1 ilien in in regard to the exercise of my trade? — It is all chance. 3t)8o. Is there any interference with me whatever? — None at all. 3681. Am I allowed freely to import the spiriis or groceries or whatever else 1 may deal in, for the use of my shop? — Yes; there is no duty whatever on them. 3tiS2. Is there any restriction whatsoever given as to the quantity of spirits which I may sell, or to whom ? — No, there is no restriction. 3ttS3. May I sell them to the Indians?— No. 3(1^4. That is a restriction ? — Of course ; I am speaking of the inhabitants of the colony. 3685. Is there any other restriction whatsoever ? — I can confidently say not, neither in iniporting nor exporting ; but certain restrictions exist as to who shall be allowed to purciiase by the bottle, or gallon. 3686. In the carrying on of that business which I have alluded to, how should I lie paid; would it be in food, or fish, or peltry, or goods of any kindr — Vou would be paid in money ; the currency of the country is dollars and cents, and there is very little of that ; we have no English money there. 36S7. What is the regulation with regard to the sale of spirits to the Indians by such a trader as I have alluded to ; is he prohibited from dealintf with the Indians at all, or only in the case of spirits r — Only in the case of spirits. 368S. Viscount Goderich.] But the licence is simply a licence to sell spirits, is it not r — That is all. 3689. It docs not require a licence to sell other things ? — No. 3690. Mr. Edicard Ellicc] You were a Member of the Council, were not you? — Yes. 3691. Were you a Member of the Council when that licence was imposed? — I was; but I protested against it. I thought it too exorbitant for a new colony. 3O92. 3t^93- 36'.H- 3<>95. 3li9t\ 3<'97- -Six years as a settler. Mr. lioebtie/i.] How long were you there ?- Then you know the climate ? — I do. Had you a farm r — I have had a farm. Have you paid attention to the climate of the country? — I have. Do you know the soil of that country? — Yes. Is the soil fit for farming .' — It is capable of producing all the crops that we can produce in this country, and some others which we cannot produce ; for instance, Indian corn ; but I do not think it would come quite to perfection on account of the nights being rather too cool. 3'.i(jS, \\'heat ripens there • — Wheat ripens there to perfection. 3009. Therefore if we heard any statement doubting that wheat ripens there, Your authority is contrary to it? — I am prepared to contradict it; it is one of the finest wheat-growing countries in the world. 3700. Have you been over the island : — 1 have been a considerable distance in the interior. 01. Have you been north r — Yes. 370a. How jr ihabitants of ire not vou r ible distance SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 197 370i. How far north r — To the nortliorn end of the island. 3703. At the northern end of liie island what is the climate r— A similar climate, but there is rather more rain, perhaps rather too much rain for agricul- tural purposes at the northern end. 3704. Have you ever been in Ireland? — No. 3705. You do not know whether there is more rain by the gauge in Van- couver's Island than in Ireland? — No ; I am not prepared to go into details, and give you the particulars. 3706. For agricultural purposes the whole island is fitted, you think? — Decidedly, bearing in mind the statement of my former evidence. 3707. In that northern part is it wooded? — The island is very thickly wooded all over, with the exception that it is interspersed with small prairies. 370S. Have you ever been in Canada? — Yes. 3709. Have you paid attention to the agriculture of that country?— No; 1 never remained in Canada any time. 3710. Do you know that all land in that country is covered with wood, which wood is obliged to be cut down before the land can be turned to agricultural purposes? — T do. 371 1 . And I suppose there is no more difficulty in Vancouver's Island than in Canada '< — Not a bit. 3712. Have you cut down timber, and converted the land to agricultural purposes immediately ? — Under the present state of the colony's infancy there is no necessity for that ; it would be too expensive. The open land is ' What authority have the Hudson's Bay (Company over \"ancouver's Island ; — They have every authority ; they are the lords of the soil by grant of the Crown, I believe 3736. And upon thom depends the jierniission to colonise that country ? — It docs. 3737- Do yon know whether they have granted that permission freely ': — At all events if they have, the prospectus is not favourable to colonisation. 3738. Was there any impediment thrown in your way as a colonist in that country ? — Yes. 3739- ^Vhat? — I was esclusively confined to my operations on Vancouver's Island. 1 had the impression when I went there first, that the mainland also was ope n for trade for settlers ; but I found afterwards that it was not. 3740. What sort of trade r — In fishing, for instance. There are large fisheries in Fraser's River, which exclusively belong to the Hudson's Bay Companv. 3741 . And you are j)rohibited from using that fishery r — Yes. 3742. Was there any impediment thrown in your way to colonising Vancouver's Island ? — No, I imajiine there is no great impediment ; but still there are many drawbacks which, if I could go into detail, 1 would mention. 3743- I'lay go into detail r — One is this : I will place myself there as an independent settler, and the disadvantages that I am under are these. It would have been much better lor me il' I had gone out in the Hudson's Bay Company's service us one of their bailitl's or servants, for this reason, that they are furnished with goods at a nominal price, and all their expenses are found them. I have tu pay extortionate prices for my goods, and find all my exjienses besides. But then I hey say, " Vou have an ccjual right to find your goods ;" but it is not every man going to a new colnny who has money to find his goods ; it is not every man who is a millionaire. 3744. Supposing the colonv were thrown open to Her Majesty's subjects generally, the power of the Hudson's Bay Company taken away, and a Governor sent there by the British Government, do you suppose that that would advance the colonisation of the island ? — I do ; I am fully of that opinion ; I think it would be one of the only steps which the British Government need take, to alter the administration of the Government, and that people would flock there from San Francisco who have been out there now some years, and are perhaps tired of the country themselves. 374.')- You mean Enghsh people ? — ^English people. lam certain that there are hundreds of people in California, who, if Vancouver's Island were a British colony to all intents and purposes, with a British Government, would gladly go to Vancouver's Island to open trade. 374(). So that the island, being under the dominion of the Hudson's D.iv Company, is not considered an English colony ? — No. 3747. The power and authority of the Hudson's Bay Company is an incident deterring the colonLsation of the country ? — Yes, it is. 3745. How far north have you travelled upon the mainland? — It is such a country that there are no roads ; you cannot travel by land, you must go by water. I have been up to the north end of Vancouver's Island. 3749. Did you ever go to Queen Charlotte's Island ? — Yes. 3750. What sort of island is it? — Something similar to Vancouver's Island, but nothing like so fertile ; it is a varied climate. 37,')i . Is it wooded ? — Very thickly wooded ; it is rather mountainous. 37,'') 2. Do you know whether there has been any discovery of coal upon that island ? — I am not aware of it. 37,-,3. Coal has been discovered upon Vancouver's Island, I believe? — Yes, they have a large mine there now in o|)eration. 37 ■;4. If that mine were worked I suppose it could supply the continent with coal ? — I believe that the Nanaimo coal mine is capable of supplying the whole Pacific. 37.').'j- lo Mhat extent is that coal mine worked now? — When I left they had something like 8,000 or 10,000 tons ready for sale, but there was no sale for it. 375G. Why?— SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 199 loiintrv ? — It iudson's Duv s an incident 37,56. Why ? — In the first place, they asked too high a price, and coal has been discovered on different parts of the coast ; and there is also the great draw- back which I mentioned, namely, the duty of 20 per cent, upon it. 37.')7- I'po'i what part of the coast has coal been found r — In Bellingham Bay, directly opposite Vancouver's Island, at the south end. 37'i8. C/iairman.] On British or American territory ? — American, and also in Goose Bay ; that is about 200 miles north of San Francisco ; but that is a very- bad harbour, and will never be to any extent available. ^-')<). Mr. Roebudi.] You say that there is a duty of 20 per cent, upon the oxpoitation of coal ? — No ; there is a duty of '10 per cent, imposed in San Francisco, in American territory. 3760. Then there is no dithculty thrown in the way of anybody exporting coal by the Hudson's i5ay Company ? — No ; but they are the only persons who arc capable of working a mine even if it were found ; there are no colonists in \'iiiicouver's Island who, even if they could find coal, would be capable of work- ing: it, from the want of means. 37tH. C/iairmaii.] Are not the Indians employed in working coal? — Nominally they are, but not to any extent ; they are principally white people. 37t)2. Do you find that the Indians are willing to work for wages, and that they make useful labourers? — Yes, they are willing to work. 'jtij. Did you employ them yourself in agricultural labour .' — Yes, I used to employ a great many. 3764. Did you pay them in money wages?— No, principally in trade goods, such as blankets and baize. 3765. You gave them no money ? — No money ; they do not understand the value of money. 376tK Mr. Roebuck.] Did you ever try them r — A few knowing characters about the settlement understand the value of money, but as a general rule, the Indians do not know the value of money. 3767. Chairman.] Are the Indians intelligent ?— Some of them are very in- teUigent. 3768. Is there any education among them ? — No, not at all. 3769. Are there no clergymen or others who interest themselves in their education ? — None whatever. 3770- Is any attempt made to Christianise them : — None at all. 3771. Do you mean none whatever: — None at all, not the slightest. 3772. Mr. Grogan.] Is there any resident chaplain or clergyman in the island ? — There is one. 3774- 377.5. 3776. 3777. Cfiairnian.] What is he ? — He is the colonial chaplain. Mr. Roebuck.] Can he speak the Indian language? — No. Then he cannot address the Indians at all? — No. Mr. Grogan.] How Ions? has he been there ? — Probably two years. What may be his .salary ?— About 300/., I believe. 3778. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What difficulty would there be ill the way of clergymen spreading themselves among the Indians in the island? — The Roman- catholic priests do it, and I do not see that there would be more difficulty attend- ing the English clergy than there is with the Roman-catholic6. 3779. How many .«tations have the Company in the island? — Three. 3780. \\'hereabouts are they ? — One is at Victoria, where the settlement is ; one is at Nanaimo, at the coal mines ; and the other is at Fort Rupert, at the north end of the island. 3781. The fact is, that with the great body of Indians through the island the Company have very little communication ? — There are no interior Indians; there are coast Indians; and I suppose the Company have a communication either directly or indirectly with the whole of them. 3782. But none of the people employed by the Company reside among the Indians ? — No ; only one or two priests. 3783. Chairman.] Do the Indians get their subsistence chiefly by fishing ? — Yes; all the Indians on Vancouver's Island subsist by tish as the staple article. 3784. You have stated that there have been attempts made by Roman-catholic missionaries to Christianise the Indians ? — Yes ; there have been several on the island, and latterly it has been a bishopric. 3785. Do they live there permanently ? — Yes. 0.24— Sess. '2. B u 4 37 8G. Have Mr. J. Cooptr, 21 May 1857. !^ ' i '^n 20O MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE m^ ik i? 1 {< ill !1 .in : ii Mr. J. Cooper. 378f». Have tliey been successful in their efforts to Christianise the Indians .• — — Yea. 1 think in the first instance they have ; they seem to have some know. SI May 1857. ledge now of a Supreme Being, from the fact of the missionaries living with them. 3787. Have they any schools to endeavo'jr to teach them? — Yes. 3788, Mr. £dward IJl/icc] How many Protestant schoohnasters are there in the island supported by the Company ? — Two ; paid by the colonial fund, .3789. Mr. Charles FifzwiUiam.] Who are the two?— One is a gentleman named Uarr ; he has left now, and is coming home. 3790. Chairman^ Arc there any Protestant missionaries in the island r — None whatever. The only Protestant clergyman there is a gentleman of the name of Cridgc. 3791. Mr. Rochuch.'\ Are the Roman-catholic priests brought over thereby the Hudson's Bay Company, or do they come over there voluntarily ?— Voluntarily, 379J. So that the Hudson's Bay Company have nothing to do with Christian- ising the country as far as depends upon tiio priests ■ — No. 3793. Mr. Grogun.'] Do the priests receive any allowance or wages from tlic Hudson's Bay Company at all?— Not that I am aware of, 3794. Are tliLie any schools maintained in the island, cither Roman-catholic or Protestant, or of any other persuasion, at the expense of the Hudson's Bar Company ? — At the expense of the colony, not by the Hudson's Bay Company. The fund arising from the sale of land is termed the colonial fund, and that is all expended, I believe, just now, and the colony a bankrupt. 379,5. You stated, I think, that you had about 300 acres of land yourself, part of which »vas not paid for : — Yes. 3796. What is the price of land in the colony ? — £. 1 per acre. 3797. Invariably r — Invariably ; with the exception of that portion of tlie island which they have allotted off" for a town, where they charge 10/. for 120 feet by 60 feet, 3798. Viscount Godcric/i.'] Where is that ; at Victoria ? — At Victoria. 3799. Mr. Jiocbnck.] W'hy is it that colonists do not go to Vancouver's Island now, and why do you suppose that they would go if the government were changed ? — From the fact that most English people object to be under any government except the real true British Covernment. 3800. Excepting that sort of feeling or prejudice, or whatever you may call it, you do not know any objection ? — Only from instances which occur of that sort, 3801. What do you mean by those instances? — .lust before T left, in the beginning of January or the latter end of December, a gentleman came up from San Francisco, under a commission from some friends at that time in San Francisco, to look at the island, and make a report about it, and what he thought of the country ; and he left the country in disgust. He said that he approved of the colony and its capabilities, but that he objected to come and settle under the Hudson's Bay Company. . 3802. Did he give you any reason for his objection r — The monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company. 3803. The monopoly of what? — The monopoly in trade ; that no individuals could compete with them. 3804. Mr. Edward Ellice.} In what trade? — General trade; they trade in everything, 3805. Mr. liocbuck] If persons came up from San Francisco with goods : for example, if those persons who deputed the gentlemen to whom yon have alluded go there, brought up goods any petition to the (iovernor, and by petitions to the House of Commons ; whetlier those iietitions have ever reached or not I am nut prepared to say, 38/',{). Chairman^ When was the appointment made ? — In 1853, I think. 38.51. Mr. Christy.'] You know that the appointment of the present judge was a sore subject in tiie colony 'i* — Decidedly. I huve just one document which I would like to read if the Committee would give me permission, relative to those petitions ; it is not very long. 38.') J. Have you known of any cases coming for decision before the court which inv(>lved any considerable amount of property? — .\o ; there are no cases in Vancouver's Island at i)resent which are liable to such an occurrence, because there is no person holding any amount of property there. 38 -,3. Was there any case, with regard to a vessel, of great importance?- Yes. 38,54. A ship and her cargo .' — W here the master was confined three months in ga I for barratry, the vessel lia\ ing railed at Valparaiso, and a large quantity of cargo sold to defray expenses. From the evidence placed befoie the grand jury, ii true bill was returned : the i)etit jury afterwards returned a verdict of not guilty. Also a case of Webster ver,sus .Muir ; that was respecting a contract; it was not exactly with regard to a vessel; that was before the a|,j.'ointmeut of Mr. Crmeron as judge. There was one case where some 2,000 dollars damages were levied. 3855. Are you aware of any cases of life and death which have come before the Court r— No. .S8.',(). Mr. Grogau.] I wish to bring you back to a subject we were speaking about before .Mr. Roebuck took up liie examination; it was with reference to the licence duty of 120/. ; you stated that you were a member of the Council at that time ?— I was. 38 ,7. Were you present at the Council when that tax or fee was imposed upon every licence? — I "as. 38,58. Do the members of the Council meet at any periodical times? — It depends entirely upon the «ill of the Clovernor. 3859. Wliat number of licences may there be in tiie island for that purpo.se' — Four. 3860. Four SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 303 liver's Island ; come before 3860 Four public-houses? — Yes; one » iiolesale, belonging to the Hudson's tit. J. Cooj^er, Bay Company, and three rt-rail. 3S(ii. What becomes of the revenue received from the sale of those licences ? ai May 1857. — £. 100 out of the licence fund goes to the judge every year, and the other 300 A iire expended in public purposes ; improvin<; roads, &c., &c. 38fi2. Fs that the entire income derived by the Company from the island ? — Unless land is sold. 38(13 What extent of land may be sold in the island ? — Probably not more than 10,000 or 12,000 acres. 3!<()4. Is there as much ns 8.000 acres sold to individuals r — I am nut pre|. <;d to state exactly, but I think it is about that. 386.1. Has it been paid for, do you know?— Most of it. 380(1. Wh:it has become uf that income? —It has been expended in making roads and bridges. 31S67. You stated that the roads were very bad ; what extent of roads are there in the island r — There are three or four roads leading from Victoria in the dif- ferent directions, not more than eight or ten miles lou;^ fro'u Victoria. 3SUS. The settlers who have purchased tliis land, I suppose, reside in the vicinity of these roads ? — They do. 38(19. And the roads were, probal>ly, nmde up to their settlements f — Yes. 3870 Viscount fr'orfenVA.] If I understand you rightly, the money derived from these licences is expended for the benefit of Vancouver s Island, the colony, and not for the general purposes of the Hudson's Bay Company? — Not for the purposes of the Hudson's Biiy Company. 3H71. Mr. Groga/i.'] What quantity of your own farm have you under tillage? —About (iO ncres. 3872. Have you a ready disposal of the produce of that ? — 'No; it entirely depends upon the will of the Hudson's Bay Company what they will give a bushel for wheat or produce ; they may either give us I ». a bushel, or they may give us two dollars a bushel, as they please. 3873. Or they mav refuse to take it at all '. — They may refuse to take it at all." 3874. Has that fact ever occurred ?— It has. 387V In that case, what became of the produce so raised; wheat, for instance ? -A great deal of it is in the .stacks to this day, there being no market for it. 3^76. Is the fact of there being no market for it, and your being entirely dependent upon the Hudson 'h Bay Company for the purchase of the wheat, a drav\l)ack to prevent the colonists from raising any greater quantity of it ? — I am certiiin of it. If we had a market for it, three times the quantity, under the pre- sent meanb, could be raised. 3877. Tiien, in fact, the Hudson's Bay Company could draw any quantity of supplies they pleas-ed from the island r — Not any quantity, but they could draw a greater quantity than is already produced. 3878. If that import duly of 20 per cent., to which you alluded as being paid on goods goinn into San Francisco, were abolished, have you any reason to think that the cultivation of wheat and other agricultural produce would greatly increase ? — It would certainly. 3S7U. You have no doubt of that? — I have no doubt of it. 38S0. You niontiimed something about the fishing; will you give a little infor- mation on that subject ? — 1 here is no fishing of importance on Nancouver's Island, only on the rivers and coasts of the mainland ; and there the Hudson's Bay Company hold the exclusive right ol trade, according to their charter, of the mainland. 3581. In the Fuca Strait what is the case r — It is all open there. 3582. Any one may fish there ? — Yes; but in Fraser's River, which is the only inlet into the mainland, in fact, no one is allowed to fish. 3583. Is that where the salmon is principally taken r — It is. 3584. Cliairman.'\ That is a very valuable fishery, is it not ? — It is. 388,5. Mr. Grogan.] If any quantity of fish were taken by any of the emigrants that chose to devote their attention to it, what would becon)e of it ; have they the means of exporting and .'•elling it ? — Not very ainple means. 3886. Have tiiey means at all? — No; they would have probably to 0.24 — Sess. 2. c c J charter ■J}'< HI mm j ' 1 ' I i iii r?!!i 5!H .1 .ill u 311 i^!^ 'III ^ ^■ M4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. /. Cocper. charter an American veaiel to take it to some port south, or to the Sandwich Islandfl. SI May 1857. 3S87. Havr the Company any vessels that trade in fish themselves? — Vei; but they very often refuse to take frei-^ht. 3888. Do you say that from your own knowledge ?-rYei», I do ; I say it is a fact ; no freile for the urxt few miles for colonisation. 3914. With respect to Thompson'H River, what do they say about thatr — That it is one of the most beautiful countries in the world, and that gold is disciivired in that and the neighbouring dii>trict now. Wlien I left the miners were getting from four to twenty dollars a day. 391/;. Who are the miners that you refer to? — Americans chiefly, men who have gone there from the inducement of obtaining gold by digging for it, in the same way as in California, and in the course uf time there will be a great number of American people settled there. 39 It). Is there any settlement at all at Thompson's Kiver belonging to the Company?— Yes, a small farm and trading fort. They have lutely removed Fort Colville; that is in Colville district, about 400 miles from the mainlund. When it was built, it was 20 miles south of the line, namely, the 49th parallel, and they have now built a fort on the north side of the line to dispense with the necessity of paying duties upon English manufactured goods, which they would otherwise if they sent them over to the old place. 3917. Is this fort for the purpose of the supplies of the Thompson's River district ? — It is to supply the jieople who go there to dig gold with goods ; that is the ostensible reason for the establishment of that fort ; tiiey have got a large quantity of goods there already. 3918. Viscount God rich.] But if it is near the parallel, must it not be a considerable way from Thompson's River?— No, it is not. 3919. \tr. Groanie, or perhaps of a little better quality, from Vancouver's Island into San i'laiK isco, there is a duty of 20 per cent, upon it, whereas ships would load on the oppusile side to IIS, and go in with the same cargo free. 3038. Mr. JiueLuck.] That 20 per cent is levied upon your goods liecause they happen to come from British territory ? — Because, unfortunately, we happen to be British subji cts. 31)39. ^o^ because you are under the Hudson's Bay Company ? — It is because it is a British turriiorv. 31140. So thai this 20 per cent, is in no way c(miiec(ed with the rule of the Hudson's Bay Company? — Not at all ; it "as formerly so in Canada, until the reciprocity treaty was entered in'o. 39.ti. Mr. Kduuird F.lUce.] You said that nieichants would go there to trade; with whom would they go there to trade r — I mentioned that they would go to trade there if we were admitted in the Canadian reciprocity treaty. 3942. With whom ? — The American people; even now a great many prople come over to X'ancouver's Island from Washington territory to buy goods, and, with enterprise, I liave no doubt myself that a great trade couhl he done tliere, by taking a large .supply of British goods, and supplying the British market ; the whalers may be induced to come there ; I know of my own knowledge tiiat they only want asking to come, and tliey would winter there. 31)43. You say that the only impediment to it is the want of proper courts of justice: — No. 1 do not say that at all; the only impediment is the rule of the Hudson's Bay Company ; even if th vflio lire located in the British territoiy; whether they have taken any co{;lll^ance of their wttling there, either fa\ouiablv or the reverse? — No, 1 do no) know that they have. It would be impossible to take any measures to prevtnt their goinjf there; it would re(|uire a lar^e force to turn them away; and it ^old is discovered there, there will be as great a rush to that country aa to Calilornia. ;j(i.s.'i. Mr. Kduaid KlHce.\ If you look at the map you will see that Fort C'olvile is not on Thompson's River? — I am aware of that; it is on the Collin bia River. 3()'-,«i. Where did you say that the ijold was on Thompson's River? -I did not say that it was on 'Ihompson's River; I said that it was in the neighbourhood of Fort Colviilf. 3i)/i7. I (lit C'olville is in American territory, is it not? — '1 he old Fort Colville is; bui the new Fort Colville is in the Hriiish territory. 31) )S. Do you know tlnit the L(»ld seekers have crossed the boundary to the north and Lonc fownrds Thompson's River ; Yes, they have gone here and there, wherever gold is to be found there you will find the people. 3t).'j<). Do you know that they are north of the boundary? — I say they are nortli of the 49th parallel 39()o. \\ here do you derive that information ? —From people who have actually returned from there during the last winti r before I left. 31)01. What were those people; were they .\inericaiis? — No, ihay were English people. 3yt)'2. Were they in the employment of the Hudson's Bay Company r — Mn thty were settlers like myself who had been there. 31)63. Settlers where? — In Vancouver's Island. ;)9()4. Had they returned to Vancouver's Island r— They had before I left. Sji'i.'-,. By what route did tliey come to Vancouver's Island? — They came down the Columbia and jjiissed over the portage. 3()li(i. Mr. J. H. (hiriuyJ] With reference to the fisheries in the Straits, what are ibe fish eaught there r- Salmon. 39(17. The same as in the River Iraser ?— Yes. i\>b>>. You mentioned that in Vancouver's Island there was a groat deal of broken ground. W hut did you intend to convey hy the term " broken ground" ? — liiat some of it is mountainous. 39(it). Rocks risinu upf — 'i here are some locks there. o<)7(). But not to any extent to prevent agriculture when the land is cleared? — In some jilaces there are very large tracts of country without any rock at all. 3971. Are the present s-ettlers stattered over the whole of the island, or prin- cijally confined to the southern portion of it? — They are confined to the neigh- bouilu od of Victoria. 3(17^ Whtit is the greatest distance from Victoria where there is any agricul- tural settlement at present r — About 20 miles ; that is only one instance; there is one lamily about 20 miles otl ; the others are not more than six or seven miles. 0.J4— Sess. 2. c c 4 3973- The Mr. J. CuOfli. ai May |B57- .a i .;li ao8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE liili •j-i' t Mr. /. Cooper. 3973- The furs which are obtained in Vancouver'slsland by the Hudson's Bay Company are obtained of course from the Indians? — Yes; very few furs are ■i M«y 1857. cauglit upon Vancouver's Island 3974- ^Vhat there are, are probably chiefly from the northern portion?— From the coast and from the main land. 3975- Viscount Goderich.] I understand you to say that the Hudson's Bay Company practically pay their servants to a great extent in goods ? — Thoy do. 397«i. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee a little more fully than you have previously done, what you believe to be the reason of that pro- ceeding? — The want of cash in the country, and also that if the Company can induce their servants to take goods at 50 per cent, profit, it is a great advantage to them that their servants should take goods. 3977. They make a profit, you conceive, upon them r — A profit of 50 per cent, when goods are sold to their servants instead of paying them money. 397H. Mr. Edward ElUcc] Supposing that the Hudson's Bay Company owe one of their servants 100 /., does he take any more goods from them in respect of that 100/. than he actually requires for his own consumption? — No, pro- bably not. 3979. Then I presume that the balance is paid in money ? — Perhaps they have no money to pay it with out there. 3980. Then how is it paid ? — It remains in their books on credit. 3081. Upon the ultimate liquidation, what is done f — If he came to England of course he would be paid. 3982. He would be paid, in fact, by a bill upon England?— He would be paid by a bill upon England, I suppose, which is comparatively useless to a labouring man, as he cannot negotiate it, except, perhaps, at a great sacrifice. 3983- Vibcount Goderich.] But he receives no interest upon the money remaining in their books, I suppose ? — None at all. 3984. Mr. Kdward Ellice.] Do you know that as a fact r— I do; all persons with a running accotmt receive no interest. 3985. But when it becomes a deposit account, what is the case? — Their offi- cers may probably get 3 or 4 per cent. ; but we were speaking more of the labouring class, not of the officers. 3986. Mr. Kinnaird.] You spoke witli regard to the whaling; which port was it that was contemplated? — Esquimault Harbour ; it lies in the south- east. 3987. If there were provisions, is it well adapted for a whaling station, in your opinion?— It is one of the finest harbours in the world, and is adapted, in every sense of the word, to their purposes, and is capable of affording them every facility which they require. 3988. Was the Company which was contemplated to be carried on with English capital or with American ? — It was an American Coaipany entirely; all the whalers in the Pacific are almost exclusively American. 3989. Mr. Gregson.] What is the depth of water? — Seven and eight fathoms. 3990. Mr. Khinaird.'] They would come there instead of which other port ?— Instead of going down south to the Sandwich Islands or San Francisco, where there are great mducecnents for their men to run away. 399 1 . Was there much commtmication when you were living there between San Francisco and Vancouver's Island? — No, not a great deal; but from the opposite side of the iStraits there was a communication probably three times a week by sailing ships. 399 J. How long would a steamer be going from San Francisco to Vancouver's Island ? — Two days and a half is the average passage, sea-going ships. 3993. Do you suppose that if great facilities were given a stream of emigration might grow from San Francisco direct there .^— It is oniy matter of opinion, but that is the opinion of a great many people to whom I have spoken upon that subject; of course there is nothing positive about it until the result is proved. 3994. Mr. Gregson.] No parties have come from San Francisco as yet? — Not to remain ; we had one gentleman, Mr. Swanston, who came ; he left. 3995. Mr. Christy.] With reference to the land which is disposed of to the settlers in Vancouver's Island, is it given to the settlers upon application without any difficulty ? — In some instances it is, but not all. 3^96. Are you aware that any application has been made to the Hudson's Bay Company for land which has been refused? — Yes. 3997. On SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 2.uj ^OOT- On what ground ?— Unless they would comply with the prospectus of ^r. J. Cooper. the Company ; that is to say, to take out so many men' for every hundred acres. Tiiere was a servant of the first Oovernor appointed to the colony since it was ■" ^^'J' '^•'57' declared a colony, Mr. Blanchard ; when he left his servant wished to go out there again ; they would not allow him to go unless he would take out so many men for his land, according to the prospectus of the colony. 3998. Are there any reservations of land ? — There have heen, but I believe under late regulations they were dispensed with ; for instance, there were a clergy reserve and a school reserve, but I think that lately, finding that they would not answer, they have been thrown open to sale. 3099. How lately do you suppose? — Within the last 12 months, I think. 4000. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] All these regulations are under the Colonial Otfice, are they not ? — I believe so. 4001'. Mr. Kimuiiid.] Had you many schools there for the benefit of the natives •— Not one for the benefit of the natives. 4002. How many were there for the Europeans ? — Two. 4003. What was the character of the schools; were they well conducted ? — They were well conducted scliools ; three young men who had been sent out from this country conflucted them. 4104. Mr. Gro^an\ Sent out by whom? — By the Hudson's Bay Company, but on account of the colonial expenses, to be paid, of course, by the Colonial Fund. 400,5. Arc there any schools for the education of the Indians? — Not one. 4006. Mr. Kinnalrd.] And is there nothing done for the Indians ? — Nothing at all is done ; there has been no attempt at civilisation at all. 4007. Or at (Christianising ? — Nothing at all. 4110S. Mr. Grogoii.'] You said that the Indians resided on the sea coast ; do they generally reside in villages on tlie coast ? — Yes ; each tribe has a village of its own. 4009. They are not scattered abroad in the country ? — No. 4010. Then there would be no difficulty in establishing schools and churches for them, if it were thought right ? — None. 4011. But no steps for that pui-pose have been taken? — No; except, as I mentioned before, that one or two Roman-catholic priests have been amongst them. 4012. Have any chapels been erected? — Tlic Roman-catholics have one chapel. 4013. Where? — In Victoria. 40 Id. Mr. Charles Fitzuilliam.] At Nanaimo, at the coal-mine, there is a large tract of country, I believe, taken up by members of the Hudson's Bay Company ? —Yes, by the coal company. * 40 15. How many acres?— Some 2,00U, I believe. 40i(). Has a settler been sent out for every 20 acres of that 2,000 acres ? — No, decidedly not. 4017. Has that land been paid for ? — I believe it has. 4018. Ninety per cent, of the money goes to the Colonial Fund? — Yes. 401 9. How is that money expended ?— The money that has been expended of the colonial funds has been expended in making roads and bridges, and building a chiirch, and estabhshing schools. 4020. Y ou say rr 'ds and bridges : where have the bridges been madi; ? — There is one across Victoria Harbour. 402 1 . From what point to what point ? — From the town site, on the Victoria side, to the opposite side of the harbour. 4022. To the Indian village ? — To the Indian village. 4023. At what cost was that made ?— About 1,000 I. 4024. Do you consider that a large amount of money to be expended on one bridge, or a small amount of money ? — I consider it a large amount of money to be expended on one particular structure, although in itself it is useful. 4025. Was there no other point on that arm of the bay across which a bridge could have been constructed at a much smaller expense ? — There were three at least, and one in particular. 4026. VV here is that one ? — At the Gorp-e. 0.24— Sess. 2. D D 4027. That .: J- ^ ill 3IO MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Cooper. 4027. That is how far from the town ? — About a mile and a half. 40.i8. By making a bridge across from the town to the Indian village was the ai May 1857. distance much shortened ? — No ; 1 do not think so ; not any. 40-'9. Where did the road lead to that crossed that bridge?— It will be, eventually, the trunk road into the interior. 4030. What settlements are there in the interior ? - There are no settlements at present ; only one or two squatted farms, such as the Esquimault farm. 4031. The Esquimault farm at the head of Esquimault Bay? — Yes; thatig the direct road to it. 4032. Was there a road up to Esquimault farm? — Not before that. 4033. Are there any settlements beyond Ksquimault farm? — Yes 4034. Where ? — One at Herbert Head ; one at Metchosen, and one at Sooke. 403,5. Is there a road to Metchosen and a road to Sooke r — One road takes them all. 403(1. Is it a road on which carrit^es can go r — Pnrt of the way ; but there are a great many obstructions in the way at present, such as gullies and the want of bridges. 4037. So that 1,000/. was expended on one bridge, and jilaces where bridges were required on tlie road were left without ? — Yes. « "Wii^HI JovU, 28° dit Mali, 1857. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Christy. Mr. Edward Eliice. Mr. Charles Fiizwilliam. Mr. (iiadstonc. Mr. Ore;;son. Mr. Oriioraii. Mr. .1. H. Gnrnev. ^Ir. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kiniiairil. Mr. Lrtbfiuchere, Mr. l>owe. Mr, Mdlhesoii. Sir John Pakington. Lord John Russell. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHEUE, in the Chair. i\\ f III ■1 ir=' {(■i iyj The Honourable William Ilcnry Draper, c. B., called in ; and Examined. « Hon. 4"38. Chairman?[ WHAT situation do you hold in Canada? — I am Chief W. II. Draper, cb. Justice of the Court of Common Pleas of Upper ( anada. 4039. How long have you held that situation ? — I have held the office of a8 May 1857. Chief Justice a little more than a year, but I have been upon the Bench of Upper Canada for nearly 10 years 4040. W hat other public situations have you held in Canada ? — I was appointed to the Executive Council of Upper Canada in the year 1836. I was ap|)ointed Solicitor-general of Upper Canada in 1837. I was appointed Attorney-general of Upper Canada in 1840. I hehl that office until some time in the latter part of 1842 ; I was re-appointed in 1844, and I continued to be Attorney-general from that time until I was ai)pointpd to the Bench. 4041. How long have you been resident in Canada ? — I landed in Quebec on the IGth or I7th of May 1820; I have been a continual resident in Canada since that ))eriod. 4042. Under what circumstances are you now visiting this country ?— I was requested by the Government of Canada, through the medium of two of its members, to undertake the duty of coming to England for the pnq)Ose of watching the investigation which, it had been communicated to them, was to take place before a ( 'ommittee of tiie House of Commons, with the view of pressing whenever I deemed it necessary for the interests of the province, cer- tain views which the Government of the province adopted in reference to their rights and interests in this question. I had written instructions from the Government SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S RAY COMPANY' an Government of Canada to that effect, which I can lay before the Committee, if they desire it. They were communicated to me through the provincial secretary, and emanating from tite (government, giving me general directions what I was to do. 4043. Sir John Pakiiigton.] As before this Committee? — In coming to England ; generally pressing upon Her Majesty's Government the views of the Government of Canada, as well as attending before the Committee from time to time to watch the nature of the proceedings and what is going on. 4044. Chairman.] Have you any objection to put in those instructions ? — As far as I am concerned, I should rather, in that n^speot, look to you, sir, as the representative of the colonies ; and if you see no impropriety in their being put in, I have no objection personally whatever. I do not consider myself respon- sible for their production ; I leave that to you ; but I am ready to produce them if desired. 4045. If you see no objection, I do not apprehend there can be any, and you will therefore have the goodness to put them in ? — I will send for them. 4046. In point of fact, you came over in consequence of a despatch which I wrote to the Governor of Canada, comiuanicating to the Governor the intention of Her Majesty's '.iovernment to propose to the House of Commons to appoint this Committee ? — I presume so, but 1 have no special knowledge of that par- ticular fact ; I have understood that su<:h a letter was written. 4047. Did not you see the despatch r — I have never seen it. 4048. Sir John Pakiii^loit.] But you were instructed by the Government there to come to tipgland : — Yes ; not for the purpose, let me be understood, of attending and doing what I am now doing, namcl , giving evidence; I received no instructions to that effect. 4049. Chairman.'] I see that the language used by the Committee of the Executive Council which was appointed to consider this question, is " The Committee of Council have read with great satisfaction the despatch of the Secretary of State for the Colonies of the Ith of December last, on the subject of the Hudson's Bay Company's occupation of the great north-west territory of America." They subsequently state, " The Committee are most anxious that Canadian interests should be properly represented before the proposed ( -"om- mittee of The House, and that opportunity should be afforded for carefully and closely watching any evidence that may be adduced before that body, and they will take the earliest occasion of suggesting to your Excellency the manner in which they conceive this can be best accomplished." Subsequently to that, I think, they requested you t. come over ? — It was exactly so, and the instruc- tions involve very little more than what you have just read. I have not been authorised by any instruction which I have received to appear before the Com- mittee as a witness. 4050. Sir John Pakington.] Was this report of the Committee of the Executive Council of Canada communicated to you before you came to this country ? — Tiiat report was not ofHcially communicated to me. 4of)i, Was it in your possession? — Nor was it in my possession. I have never had it in my possession at all. I do not wish to be understood as saying that I was ignorant of it, but I had no official communication of it. 405'i. Mr. Christy.] Did they hmit you in any evidence which you might give, or any course which you ndght take ? — I am rather sorry to say that they gave me too unlimited a discretion, one which, since I have been in England, I have been continually urging upon them to limit by more express and defined instructions. 4053. Tlien they left the whole course to your own discretion? — Very much indeed. Very much more so than I should have desired, or than I would have undertaken, had time permitted for an investigation into it. 4054. Chairman ] Havt you any personal knowledge of any portion of the territory belonghig to the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I have not ; I have never been nearer to it than the eastern portion of Lake Superior. 4055. In what manner do you conceive that the inquiry before this Com- mittee particularly affects the interests of Canada? — First, very materially with regard to what I conceive to be the true boundary of Canada. 1 may say, secondly, with regard to the deep interest that the ^^eople of Canada have, that that territory should be maintained as a British possession. I may say, thirdly, because the people of Cauaiia look to it as a country into which they 0.34 — Sess. 2. D u 2 ought Hon. W.H.Draper,c.[ 28 May 1857. ' i m^ 'i ^'^^ftii inif \M'' 2|2 mi:jutes of evidence taken before the 28 May 1857. I'lV/f Aj'pemlix. Hon, ought to be permitted to extend their settlements. Those three points I think ty.IL' Draper, c.B. would involve till that 1 could say upon that subject. 4(i,'j(i. Taking the points in the order in which you have mentioned them; first of all, with regard to the question of the limits of the province of Canada, are there any statements which you wish to lay before the Committee on that liead f — I should say with regard to that point that the view which is taken, be it sound or unsound, is this : at present it is understood by us that the Hudson's Bay C ompnny claim as a legal right, all the land which is drained by any streams, no matter how remote their sources may be, which flow into either the Hudson's Bay fetraits, or Hudson's Bay. We consider that that is an ill-founded claim, principiilly upon this ground, that it is a claim of which we can find nu trace until a very modern period, and is quite inconsistent with the claims advanced by that Com])any for nearly a century and a half. To pave time I have prepared extracts from various documents, emanating from the Company themselves, with some few other documents ; it is a paper which it would save a great deal of time to put in, because I can give every place where the extracts are taken from, and therefore reference to the original documents can alway be had. 1 would also desire to say that in every extract which I have made, I have made it a complete extract of all that is stated on the ques- tion, and if it involves anything favourable to the Hudson's Bay Company, it will be found in those portions of which 1 have made the extract. 4057. Are those extracts made from documents which are accessible to everj-- body ? — I believe 1 may say every one ; I think so ; easily accessible. 4058. Sir Jo/ni Pafiington.] They specify of course in ev*ry case what they are? — Yes. {fhe Witness delivered m the Paper.) 40,5;). Chuirnian.'] Upon this question of the boundaries of the colony, passing by for the moment to the question of legality, will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what you think it would be for the interest cftlie colony of Cnnada, to do with regard to boundaries? — The first point which we should desire 1 think with rtgard to the interests of Canada, would be to obtain a determination of what our boundaries actually are ; knowing that we are then in a better position to state whether we desire to go beyond them, and if s>o, for what purj.oses and to what extent. 40tio. Will you favour us with your individual opinion of what it would be for the advantage of Canada to have as boundaries ; ho«v far you would extend them ?— 1 should myself i)ropose, if I were making a proposition upon a subject of that sort, that Canada shoidd have in the first place a free right to explore and survey, in order to ascertain the capabilities of the country ; in the second place, to open communication roads in tlie manner pursued in that country, by putting settlers on each side of them with free grants, which in the course of a compariitivelj' short period of time, facilitates the intercourse with those portions of the country which hitherto have been inaccessible, or very difficult of access by persons going to settle ; in the next place I should propose that Canada should be permitted to lay out townships, and that as fast as she did actually lay ihtm out and settle them, those portions of the territory so settled should become incorporated with and form part of the province ; I would limit it under all circumstances and at any distant period by the Rocky Mountains; I should never dream of pushing beyond them. 4061. Sit John Pakiniiton.] Would you claim that right of survey without any limit, except the Rocky Mountains f — Yes. 4062. C/iairmaii.] Do you think that at present Canada could conveniently or efficiently govern and manage the whole of that vast territory to the east of the Rocky Mountains which belongs to British North America? — If you say at this moment, 1 shall be obliged to answer in the negative, because at the pre- sent moment our communications are not opened ; we have not yet established the prospect of opening tlicm ; and to undertake to govern a country which we do not know that we can get at, would be a rash and unwise step, which 1 think no one would ever think of taking. That is why I premise that we should desire to siirvey and explore before we do anything else. W^hen we speak of governing the whole of that country it involves the consideration that, unless the country be jjut under an efficient government of some sort, we entertain (I speak for myself individually, but 1 believe I am speaking the sentiments of large numbers of the inhabitants of (Canada) a very serious ap- prehension 1 1 SELECT COMMITTKE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 213 prehension that if something is not done that territory will in some way or another rease (o be British territory ; and upon that point they feel an extreme anxiety. Any one looking at the map can see that the effect of that would be to cut off a portion of the British Empire from all possible communication with the Pacific ; and therefore they look at it with extreme anxiety, and it is with the view of insuring, which they think they could more effectually do than any one else, the maintenance of British authority within those possessions, that they entertain the views which 1 have just stated, and which I myself entertain and advocate. 4063. I presume, from the answer you have just given, that the point to which you would attach the greatest importance is, that all that country which borders upon the territory of the United States should be settled as speedily as circumstances will admit of, and effectually jjrotected?— Certainly I mean tbat; and 1 wish to call attention, in addition to this particular consideration, that th? uotural outlet of that country appears rather to be into the United States, and that therefore it becomes a large coneideration, in order to open communications with Canada, that Canada should have a direct interest which would induce hei" to apply her resources to that partictdar view. 4064. Take, for instance, the Red River St.ttlement, do you believe that it would be possible for Canada at once to undertake the dut)', and incur the charge and expense of managing and governing that country ?— Expressing my own opinion, I say distinctly not at present. I think it would be necessary, until the settlements which 1 have projected could be carried into effect, that an ad interim provision for the government of that country should be made. 40t).5. .Supposing it were thought desirable to govern that country as a British colony directly, and that arrangements were made with the Hudson's Bay Company by which that could bt- done, do you think it would be essential that that country should be connected with Canada, or would it not answer even Canadian purposes equally as well if it were a British colony in some other form ? — If it is ascertained to be a settled point that no really available communication for commercial purposes can be made between Canada and that settlement, if nature has interposed an insuperable barrier, then, of course, we must yield. But assuming tliat there is no such insuperable barrier, then I think that when once we have made this a continuous range of settlements from Canada to the Red River Settlement, it can be better governed as a British possession, forming part of Canada, than in any other way. I believe that, to facilit.it'j that object, Canada would be ready at once to permit exports through her territories, even while she was carrying on the roads ; that she would be quite willins to relieve all imports into that country from duty, to enable them to raise a temporary revenue for that very purpose. 4066. At present, would it be possible or convenient for Canadian institutions to be introduced into the Red River Settlement, and for representatives cf that settlement to attend the Canadian Legislature ? — In my i n judgment, I should not propose that, until such time as the settlements from tlu orth-western portion of Canada were extended to the Red River Settlement ; look upon it as a temporary proceeding, and that the representative institutiou of Canada should extend just as far, and no further, sis her actual settlements extend. I think that in proportion as those settlements can be extended, the institutions which we have, should be extended over those portions of countries so settled. 4067. With the present limits of Canada, has any practical inconvenience been found from the wfint of being able to extend the settlements as fast as the population was ready to !j,o there ? — I believe that the government at this moment have very little land indeed lying between the three great lakes for disposition. 4068. Do you believe that the fact of this territory being under the government of the Hudson's Bay Comi)any has prevented any settlements from Canada that otherwise wouUl liave been made there .' — It is ditKcult to answer that question, except by assuming th;it people who have left Canada to go to the territory of Minesota, or who are about leaving it for that piu'pose, would have gone perhaps as readily to the valley of the .Saskatchewan if it had been thrown open for settlement ; it is an assiunption ; I cannot speak of it as a fact. 4o(i(). Are you inclined to entertain that opinion yourself: —I can myself only refer to tlie contemplated emigration from the Glengarry country, where the Scotch Highlanders settled a great many years ago, and where the soil and 0.24— Sees. 2. D D 3 climate lion. W.U-, Draper, c.«. 98 May 1857. ''I 4 ■; I 214 MlNl'TKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE sSMay 1857. IHMi! ■i . n if. i Jill n li !• i ■ ; iluJl!^ ' J 1 i i i H""- climate are somewhat unfavourable ; from that or from some other cause, which n .H^ Draper, en. \ „,„ ,1,,^ ^^\^\^ ,„ suggest, because I do not know it, I am informed that there is an emigration proposed which is going to the territory of Minesota from thiit country, and 1 think we are losing some fine hardy valuable settlers from that cause. 4070. If that territory to which you have referred were annexed in some form or other to C'anada iit once, in what manner would you propose to administer its government: — I have not digested the matter very much in my own mind ; but, throwing it out as a rough sugicestion, i should suppose tluit it must be bv a governor and council, with legislative powers suited to tlie immediate necessities of th«' colony, and that that (louncil being a]>pointed by tlie Crown (assuming as a j)oint of policy that the territory is to become Canadian lu'reafter; sliould at all events partially be composed of persons having an interest in or coime\ion with the province of Canada. 4071. You would govern it in some degree as a territory? — Precisely so; bv a governor in council, with certain legislative powers, until you could extend the right of sending Members to tlu' Canadian Legislature, an extension which I should conceive desiratile at the very earliest prat^ticable moment. 4o7'2. Do you not anticipate the possibility that, supposing those settlements to flourish or become considerable, the distance of that country from Canada would make the inhabitants desire rather to have a colony of their own and a settled government than to be an appendage to a government so far distant from them? — I should say that they would be an integral part of it, and not an a})pendage, when the idea which I have suggested was carried out ; then it would be a mere ((uestion of convenience of communication from one portion of that province to the other, or to the seat of government. 4073. Do you think that there would be any objection to postpone,tlie question of the annexation or non-annexation of tliis territory to Canada until the period when circumstances should show that that degree of interval between tlie two countries had been filled up by settlers, and what were the wishes and feelings of the colonists themselves r — If Canada is to be at the expense of survey, and the expense of settlement, which was a matter involved in my proposition, then as a matter of course it would not be considered right, I suppose, for the Canadians to incur the expense of settling the country for the benefit of an independent portion of the Queen's dominions. 4074. Supposing Canada were not put to that expense, would it alter the question ? — It would idter the question only to this extent ; if there were another mode of communication (I do not mean, of course, through the United States), by which tiiat colony could be approached from Europe, and by which commercial intercourse could be conducted, that which in my mind presents the greatest difficulty would of course be removed ; but at present, I am sorry to say, that I think the obstacles to getting into that country in any other way excepting from C'anada (excluding the United !*^tates), are greater than they will be found upon examination to be getting at it through Canada; and if you will bear with me for a moment I will give very generally and briefly my reasons for that conclu- sion. Of course I cannot pretend to questicm the opinions of those who having travelled through the country must have liad better opportunities of judging than I have had of the facility or difficulty of communication, but I would take the liberty of making this observation, that the French conducted all their trade with that country not only through the particular portion of it now considered to be almost impassable, but also the whole way up the River Ottawa, at a tame when there was not a single settler above the falls of Chaudiere. 1 have a map, although 1 have not it with me, showing the number of townships laid out on the Lower Canada side of that river, extending to within a comparatively very short distance of Lake Nipissing. Now the difficulties of travelling up that river, instead of being what they tised to be, when there was great difficulty in obtaining supplies of any kind, are lessening every year. The Canadian Government, at this very moment, have a party employed in sur- veying, with a view to the improvement of the navigation of that river ; so that the difficulty would be reduced to the difficulty uetween the head of Lake Superior (the western portion of it) and the Red River Settlement. Even supposing the Ottawa not to be improved, you f^an go at present from A.'ontreal to Toronto without a transhipment at all. Yuu can cross from Toronto, a distance SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 215 distnnw of between 90 and 100 miles, 1 think some 95 miles, J)y railway to a Hon. port on Lake Huron. You lan go by steamer from Lake Huron to the bead of l^-U- Draper, i.b. Siiult .Saint Mary. There is a canal tlirough the American territory there, passable by vessels of a sufficient size to navigate Lake Sujxrior, and you can '' ^^7 '*57- therefore land with one transhipment, and without one if you go through the \Vellaiid Canal, goods shi|»i)ed at Montreid for Fort William. When the Irenel' carried on their trade with the Indians, I think one of their forts was on the river Saskatchawan, and when the .North-west Company extended their settlements to the westward of the Uocky Mountains, they took all their supplies up till" river Ottawa, against all the difficulties that 1 have spoken of. Consequently, if tluy could carry on u profitable trade then, a trade which had to be carried on upon men's backs in every portage that they had, I should think that when you have been settling a country, and putting prople on every portion of it which is cajjable of agricultural settlement, you will not find that difficulty of which I have been speaking, because they will not stick to the canoe route. To take the instance of the Lake of the Woods, subject to one difficulty which I will mention, any one will see that there is a very much shorter communication in point of distance (whether it is practicable or not, never having been across it I cannot pretend to say, but I am not aware that it is impracticable), from the Leke of the Woods across to the Red River Settlement, taking the chord of the arc instead of taking a long parabolic arch. 4075. In short, your opin. m seems to be, that it would be both true policy for this country and just to the colonists vhat any part of the territory to the eastward of the Rocky Mountains which could be brought into settlement and cultivation, should be ultimately added to the colony of Canada ? — That is what I wish to be understood as saying. 4076. I think you base that opinion a good deal upon the circumstance that in your judgment Canada would always be the necessary line of communication, so far as British territory is concerned, for the trade and intercourse of that colony ? — As I understand the navigation of the Hudson's Bay and Straits to be limited to a very few months in the year, I think that the only real com- munication through IJritish territory is necessaiily through Canada. I think that that would be found to be the best line of communication, unless, as I have said, it should be found that nature has interposed insuperable obstacles, which 1 do not believe. 4(177. Do you beUeve that the colony would be disposed to undertake the expense of surveyijig and settling this coimtry if an arrangement of that kind was concluiled r - 1 beheve that they would at once undertake the survey and exploration without any hesitation. Upon the result of that would dejjcnd, I presume, the question whether they would like to a;o any further. If they found that they could not communicate, 1 take it for granted they would not desire to take the country, or pretend to take it, when they could exercise no sufficient control over it. 4'i78. If the lied River Settlement were erected into a. territory in the manner which you jjropose, as a sort of appendage to Canada, do you believe that the Canadian people, or the Canadian legislature, would be disposed to incur any expense in the management of the Government there ? — For myself, I am so little connected with the j)olitics of the country, that I cannot pro- nounce a decided opinion, and I have had no authority to speak upon that question. 4079. Could they derive any colonial revenue from that country r — Very littif, I j)resunie, in its present state, because the consumption of 7,000 or 8,000 people, which I understand to be the number of the population, would yield a very small revenue at present. 4080. It of comse would be necessary to have a court of judicature to pro- tect the country in some way '( — Of course. With regard to that, I would say that this is not a new question ; it is a question which was discussed and con- sideieil a good deid by a commissioner appointed under the authority of the Government in the year 1817 or 1818 ; I allude to Mr. Coltman, who, together with Mr. Fletcher, was appointed a commissioner to investigate the difficulties existing between the Hudson's Bay (.'ompany and the North-west Company before their coaUtion, and Mr. Coltman reported some views upon that subject; 0.24 — Sess 2. u D 4 whether I ■i Bi :-}..^ U' 216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hun. H'. H. Draixr, c. b iM' !!■■ li ' 11. i-' m is; |H 18 Mfiy 1857. whether they were ever adopted hy Her Mnje.sty's Government, I have no menus of knowing ; I lun quite sure tliey must hiivc been submitted. lUj report will be found in the printed Journals of the House of Commons of 1819. I can refer the Committee to the exact page of it. 4081. At present in Canada you have no trouble with the Indians, I believe? — None whatever. 4082. Are you ot all apprehensive that the Red River Settlement might bring you in contact with the Indians who would be troublesome? — Not if the Indians were justly dealt with. 4»)8.3. I believe there have been very disastrous conflicts on the American side of the border, at no very great distance from tlie Red River Settlement, between the Indians and the white men "-—There have bi-en very disastrous conflicts to the west of the Rocky Mountains, I am not aware of any to the east of the Rocky Mountains ; there may have been individual quarrels ; I will not enter into that, but there have been for a length of time no very serious conflicts, I believe, to the eastward. To the westward a mo.st dis'astrous war has been pending for a very considerable length of time, and I believe it is ])en(ling still. To the southward, again, a very long contest has taken jdaee from the determi- nation of the United States Government to turn the Indians out of a particular portion of the country, but that does not, so far as I am aware, embrace that portion of the territory lying at the head waters of the Missouri River. 4084. Supposing the extension of th(! limits of Canada, and the settlement of any part of the territory of British North America which would be supposed to be adapted for settlement within any considerable term of years that you could look forward to, were provided for, do you then think that it would be inconsis- tent with Canadian interests to leave for a considerable time that portion of the territory which manifestly we cannot look forward to as being susceptible of settlement, to the management of the Hudson's Bay Company in the same manner as at present ?— Do you mean with rights of territorial government, or with the rights of exclusive trade, or with both r 4o8,v Exactly as they are now in possession, with the rights which they now claim and have exercised ? - Those involve botii the principles, as 1 understand their present claim. 4o8t). Without raising the question of legal right in tlie Hudson's Bay Company to leaving that in abeyance, as it now is, would you ol)ject to confining them within a territory considerably to the north of toe line which they now have : — llie only difficulty which I have in ausvvLring that question is, that in giving my own opinion I believe that I should express an opinion whic) is not shared in by a great many people in Canada, and 1 would wish that to be distinctly understood. My own o|)inion is, that for tlie purpose of preserving peace among the Indians, and preventing ditliculties arising, it is of great importance, for some time at all events (I should say a limited time), that the Hudson's Bay Company should maintain those stations and that trade which they have hitherto carried on, which have kept the Indians at piacc. That is my own individual opinion, foundei upon this consideration, that wherever I have seen an instance, as far (s I have been able to read or ascertain about it, in "hich there have been nval traders, it has had two effects; first of all, the indiscriminate and unlimite>l use of si)irituous liquors to draw the trade, which is of itself a most prejudicial thing to the Indians ; and secondly, that it has prompted and promoted those quarrels between rival traders which have had one of two effects, either to produce sometimes blood- shed, or at last to produce, as has been the case between the Hudson's Bay Company and the North-west Company, a combinatio.i of interests, when the parties can only repay themselves by carrying on their trade witli the Indians upon terms which are anything but advantageous to the Indians who have to purchase goods from them. 4087. You have stated, in expressing this opinion, that you believe it is not universally entertained in Canada? — I do. 4088. Do you think, however, that it is entertained by the majority of the persons in Canada who have attended to the subject ? — I think that there are, perhaps, two or three classes of people at the present moment who are agitating this question in Canada. I should not be speaking candidly and fairly to the Committee if I did not say that I think a very large portion of those who are most I:; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 217 arising, it is most prominent :/i that movement are so from a desire to share in the commercial profits of the fur trade ; I think timi, ihat is unquestionable ; out I think there is another portion of them, and a very considerable portion too, who look to future consequence more than to that question, and who are actuated by what I have already referred to, namely, the fear that if some- thing is not done <'ffectually and promptly that territory will cease to be British territory. 4081}. How far back do you think it would be desirable to throw the frontier to the north for the purpose of giving opportimities for settlement in the manner which you have described ? — I understand by that question how far there might be the exclusive right of trade which I have spoken of as that which should be reserved ; how far from the north »., should extend to the south, leaving au intermediate space in which there should be no such exclusive right, but which should be open to settlement. 4oqo. Exactly so r— I have no personal knowledge of the territory whatever; all 1 know of it has been derived from books or other documents which I have consulted from time to time upon that subject. It has occurred to me that the line once proposed by the Hudson's Bay Company themselves, shortly after the peace of Ryswick, would reach about the extent of what would be the land desirable for settlement ; I suppose that the most valuable portion of the land for settlement would be found to lie in a parallel of latitude south of Norwpy House ; but I give that as a mere matter of opinion, not that I have any personal knowledge. 4091. Where is Norway House r — At the head of Lake Winnipeg, about the north-east comer of Lake Winnipeg ; I do not desire to attach any importance to my own answer, because I have no knowledge of the country of a personal character, and therefore may be very much mistaken as to its resources and capabilities of settlement. 4092. Mr. Edward EWfe.'] In that answer do you contemplate including that portion of Labrador and James's Bay ? — I do not propose carrying the line straight through there, because it would be depriving the Hudson's Bay Com- pany of control over the Indians in one portion of the territory ; I referred to the line proposed to the Company themselves upon the negotiations for limits between Canada and the Hudson's Bay Company's territory shortly after the peace of Ryswick, in which they themselves proposed certain limits, which, although they were not willing to take, they nevertheless, as a pis alter, were ready to submit to if nothing better could be gained for them. With regard ta the eastern portion of the territory, the limit which I should at present suggest would be rather that limit which was proposed under the Treaty of Utrecht, which was to start from Cape Perdrix in 58,J° of latitude, just below Cape Chud- leigh on the Labrador coast. The Hudson's Bay Company themselves proposed that a line should be run from there (in one of the papers it is called 594° and in the other 58 J"), that it should come down through the island of a lake called Lake Mistassinnie, and from there in a south-west direction, extending to what they then required as the boundary to be given to them, namely, the 49th parallel of latitude directly through the continent. Grimmington Island, I thmk, was the name of the island, and Cape Perdrix the name of the cape. 4093. That proposition, 1 believe was not agreed to r — I believe nothing grew out of it ; it was ])ropounded to the French, and they would not assent to it. {The Witness pointed out the position on the map.) Instead of that, my own suggestion would be that it should only come down in this direction, and come to the point whicii I have already referred to, across the country to the Rocky Mountains. 4094. Sir John Pakhigtcn.'] That would be your line to get to Norway House ? —I have only thought of it generally. The line must leave sufficient space here, so as not to interfere with the trade of St. James's Bay, on which some Indians are settled ; this country being at present, I believe, so far as white inhabitants are concerned, wholly unsettled. 409,«i. Still, I apprehend that your proposed line would pass considerably to the northward of the present boundary shown for Canada on that map ? — Yes. I wish to be understood as stating that I am suggesting merely the line suggested by the Hudson's Bay Company themselves. 4096. Mr. Edward Ellice.] In what year was that proposal made ; in I7I9» was not it ? — Tlie proposal that I speak of was renewed by the Hudson's Bay 0.24— Sess. 2. E E Company Hon. W.H. Draper,ciii. aSMay iSs?. ,1' 'y ■ il ■ ; J 2l8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H«n. W.H.Draptr,C.» a Kty 1857. m hi'- 1^111 :ii#fi!:f| ill' '" Ml i~ v I Comnany in the year 1750. On the 2')th of July 1750, tiu- Company were called upon to lay before the I.onls of Trade the limits which they proposed, and they replied in the mimth of October of that year, giving the boundary that I have just gjwken of. 4007. Chaintian.] The actual boundaries of Canada are not very well defined, I believe r— There are two definitionH ; it must depend, perhaps, upon fhe legal construction which of the two should prevail ; one of them is given ])y the Statute of 1774, the 14th of George the 3d, which speaks of the boundaries of Canada to the north as being the limits of the lands granted to the Merchants Adventurers of the Hudson's Bay Company ; the lattir boundary is under the Statute of 179\, the 3l8t of the king, in which, instead of using the tenns that the two provinces are to be bounded by the lands granted to the MiTchunts Adventurers of the Hudson's Bay Company, this form of expression is used, that they are to be bounded by the line of the Hudson's Hay territory, as if, between the two periods, c uew light had entered the nnnds of those who were drawing up tlmt Act. 40(j8. Are you aware of the terms used in the Governor's commission as to the boundaries r— I think they are copied from the Proclamation of 1791 ; but I cannot si)eak with certainty. 4009. Speaking as Chief Justice, are you aware of any practical incon- venience which arises from the present state of the want of legal precision in the boundary of Canada with regard to the administration of justice ? — I am not aware that the question Iwus ever been ral.jcd since the days of the disputes between Lord Selkirk, the Hudson's Bay Company, and the North-west Com- pany ; there were difficulties then. 4100. In the ordinary administration of justice, it does not cause any incon- venience : — In the ordinary administration of justice, that question has never arisen within my experience, and I, ns a student, at the bar, and on the bench, have been connected with the profession upwards of 30 years. I never heard the question raised in any way whatever. 4101. Have you not some concurrent jurisdiction with the Hudson's iJay Company in judicial matters over the whole of that territory ? — There are two statutes regulating that matter, and conferring jurisdiction upon the courts of the colonies within those limits. The first of them gave jurisdiction over offences committed within the Indian territories. The second was an explanatory Act, stating that the offences committed within the territory belonging to the Hud- son's Bay Company were included in the term, " Indian territories." 4i0'j. I think you have stated that you ha^e no rnsh to go to the west of the Rocky Mountains ? - Only in one sense. I hope ) ou will not laugh at me as very visionary, but I hope to see the time, or that my children may live to see the time when there is a railway going all across that country and ending at the Pacific ; and so far as individual opinion goes, 1 entertain no doubt that the time will arrive when that will be accomplished. I should desire, for the sake of Canada, that permission should be reserved to her to that e.xtent only, that if she makes a railway through her own portion of the territory, it shall go to the terminus. That is merely my own opinion. 4103. Sir John Pakiiiyton.j You are aware that the report of the Executive Committee does not limit the western boundary of Canada, even to the Rocky Mountains, but claims it up to the Pacific Ocean ?— I am aware that that report does so. 4104. Is it your own opinion that there is any legitimate reason for limiting the western bountlary to the Rocky Mountains rather than to the Pacific Ocean • — It appears to mv that the more natural intercourse from the west of the Rocky Mountains is to the seawjird, the Pacific, rather than to come to the eastward to the Atlantic, unless there were a railroad established. 4105. Chairman.] You have, doubtlefs, in a legal point of view, considered very much the rights, both to the possession of the territory and to the exclusive exercise of trade claimed by the Hudson's Buy Company ? — I have rather con- sidered the matter in a speculative point of view ; when I speak of looking at a thing in a legal point of view, I am so apt to confound it with a judicial point of view that 1 would rather say that I had speculated upon it than that I have reflected upon it, as I would do if I had to give judgment upon it. 4106. Do you think it of importance that the validity of those claims should be either established or refuted soon? — First of all, dividing that question, if you SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 219 you vill permit me with regard to the (leciHion nf the lM)un(iary between Cniiadii mid tlie territory of the Hudson's Hay Company, it appear to me that there is no mode in which we can commence the decision of the whoh* question, without deciding tliat ; becaiise, nxsuminp^ that tliere is a portion of the territory to which the Ihidsotrs Day Coini)any are lawfully entitled, whicli is conceding the tiling in the strongest way in their favour, then if you propos*- to take anything away from them which really belongs to them, the question of roni]M'n-uld furniHh it to you: I can refer tu particular portions of it. 411,5. Lawyers have expresMed great doubts aiiout these points? — I believe there have been many opii^ions ; there were very eminent opinions taken, which are all in print ; I think tiiere were opinions taken both by tlie North-west Com- Eany and by the Hudson's Bay Company ; I have seen all those opinions, and I ave read most of them in print, and I appreheiul they are very easily accressihle, 4ii(>- Are the (bmmittec to understand that you would wish biktli the questions, that of the monopoly of trade, and that of the exclusive possession of land, to be referred to the Judicial Connnittee of the Privy Council, if it can so be done?— I myself should consider that that would put an end to all question, and would settle all doubts by a decision one way or the other with regard to a matter of that description unquestionably; but speaking for the Frovince of Canada, the point which 1 am particularly desirous of urging upon your con- Hideration, and of limiting myself to as their representative, if 1 may so speak, wouhl be the decision of tlicir territorial limits ; that is the point in which tiiey are most interested ; but I do not sec how you can very well dispose of tht- one without inevitably raising the other. i«i 17. Mr. Christy.^ The opinions taken by the Hudson's Bay Company have never been printed: — I cannot say whetlier they have been printed. I can only say that I have read them. The mutter has l)een considered Jis a broad legal question upon the validity of the charter, and the different points that I liave been speaking of, and it is that point to which I have had my attention partially directed ; I have a variety of cases which I tiunk bear upon the subject, but it is ratluT in the nature of a juilicial argument ; it is more in the nature of a brief for counsel to argue from than anything else ; it is not a document drawn u[t in the slightest drgree with the view of laying it before this Committee ; I wish that to be quite liuderstood. 4118. Lord John limselL] When the opinion of Lord Grey was known iu Canada, was there a dis])osition to acquiesce in the mode pointed out by liord Grey r — I am not aware that the matter was in any way discussed or considered in Canada at that paricular period ; 1 do not think it was. 41 I;). Has it been since ?— I cannot say that it has ; I am not able to answer the question. 4120, Chairman.] The Committee are desirous of being favoured with your opinion upon the subjects which have been raised, namely, the validity of the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company, both to trade and territory ; and also the manner in which you may conceive that the iegalitv of those claims may be tested by some judicial tribunal ; the Committee would be much obliged to you if you would place your views upon this subjet't before them, in any form which you may think expedient? — I would desire to mention a fact which is of course very well known to yourself. Sir, that oh the ttth of May I enclosed the pa])er which you have before you, accompanied b\ a letter, which I presume I may refer to for this purjKJse, namely, of statinic that it contained a request that Her Majesty's Government would take upon themselves, in such shape as they thought best (but 1 suggested the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council), the decision of the question of boundary between the province of Canada and the territory of the Hudson'?. Bav Company, and I iisked that the province might on their part have counsil attending to watch any argument, if an argument was thought nc( cssary, and that if thought expedient they might also be permitted to take jjart in it. Tiiat was the object of my request. I dare say, for very many good reasons. I only receivtul a reply to it last night ; but in the meantime, imagining that that course must sooner or later be adopted, I have been preparing myself for tlie possiljility of thfi submission of a question of that chara(;ter, and of the larger question, if tlie larger question must neces- sarily come up. Wliat I have been doing, therefore, has been not at all with the view of presenting anything lu're, l)Ut with the view of preparing my.self to instruct counsel, if it became necessary to instruct them, upon the different points e to answer SELKCr COMMITTEE ON THE lUJDSONS BAY COMPANY. aai pointH of law which 1 thought would be iiivulve>l. You are nHkiuK me, in fact, to five thf h«'nefit of any little industry which I hiivi- cxerciHcd for tin- benefit of th«" province of Caniulu to other particH. 4rji. The Committee have no wish to ask you to communicate un) thing to tlieni whi(;h you an not yourself desirous of doini^ ? — I merely desire to give that explanation why I am relu(*tant to furnish the information, [ndividually, [ cHU liavi! no oiijection to state it. 4122. Do you believe that till- province (nt and jnoclamations of the Crown, the other under a charter from i\n- Crown, and therefore it is a question of which we should naturally suppose the C^rown would take upon themselves to procure the reference and the decision. Therefore in asking permission to attend with counsel, it was not imder the idea that we should take out of the hands of Her Majesty's Government tlie conduct of the proceeding, but that we should be permitted to watch, and if necessary take part in, the argument. At the same time I would Juld, that the latter portion of that statement is* entirely r.iy own suggestion ; that my instructions do not limit me to that course ; and that if Her Majesty's (5ov«'rnment were broadly to say that Canada must appear before the Judicial Committee of the I'rivy Ccmncil for tlie purpose of determining her boundaries, I apprehend that my instructions go the full length of enabling nie to do so. 4124. Are th<^ Committee to understand that you consider that if it should be found either impossible or inexpedient on the part of the Crown properly to institute judicial i)rocecdings, in order to try the validity of the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, you are authorised by the colony, on their part, to institute such proceedings, in order, as you may think fit, to try the validity of that charter, either wholly or in part r — My instructions I conceive to i^ive me a discretion ; 1 havt? not made iq) my mind as to the mode in which 1 should exercise it. 412,'). Lord Jo/iii Riix' I understand you to give a decided opinion as to the monopoly of trade - I pon that point I have never entertained a doubt. 4i'.G. Mr. hnrc] Wli^t \< tlu>re in the government of the IhuUon's Bay Cor.ipany vhicli niiues you appreh'.'nsive of the Americans exteudiny; them- selves into the tc ritory if that government continue" — I conceive thiit the Hudson's Bay <\u»\paiiy are a company ccmducting their govenunent in a manner consonant with their interests as a trading company, and conducting it in that view most admirably. I do not think that the interests of a trading company vim ever be considered as compatible with the s(>ttleuK'ut of the province. 4127. What you apprehend is, that they will not let tl' jirovince be settled? — iTom the year 1812, when Lord iSelkirk obtained the- grant, down to the present moment, there appears to be a population of 0!il\ about 7.000 people, and when 1 can i)oint to portions of the country round in vhich it has increased at the rate of 70,000 instead of 7,<'00, there must be something in the govern- ment of tlu- country which does not encourage setth'ment. 4 1 J 8. Sir John Pakin^toii.] Is it your opinion that the whole of that district wliich you have described, lying between the present boundary between the Uniti d States and the British territory, and a line striking across the north of Lake Winnipeg, is fit for settlement ? — I can only form an opinion founded upon the testimony of others. Before I left Canada, knowing that there was a gentleman of tlie name of Macdonald, whose name will be found in tiie Parliamentary Papers of 1849 jis "bras croche,"' who had been 25 years 0.24 — Sess. 2. K E 3 employed \f Hon. ly. II. Draptr, C.B. 38 Majr 1857. m^ t 1 222 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. W. H. Dntper, c.b. 98 Mbjt 1857. m¥^ iUH il! m employed in the North-wtst Company, 1 corresponded with him, and I obtained a great deal of information which I thought exceedingly valuable, and upon which my ojjinion of the facility of settling that country is founded, together with other papers of a similar kind which I have read, but I have no j)ersonal knowledge of it whatever. 41 2t). .Are not the apprehensions which you have ^'pressed to this Com- mittee founded upon the belief on your part, that unless that line of country is settled from Canada it. will practically be settled from the United States without respect to the boundary ?— It is so ; the boundary is an undefined line ; there is nothing to prevent people crossing it ; nothing to point it out ; nothing to defend it. 4130. We see (m that map a district close to the line of boundary between the United States and the British territory of very considerable extent, marked pink ; I apprehend that that is so marked pink because it does not come witliin the definition of Rupert's Land, as described l)y the waters which fall into the Hudson's Bay ; is not that so ? — I suppose it. to he so. 4131. Is it within your knowledge whether that district, so marked as not belonging to Rupert's Land, is nevertheless occupied by tlie Hudson's Bay Company ; — The licence of exclusive trade ( I have not examined it carefully) probably includes it. If it does, then it would come under their jurisdiction to have the exclusive licence to trade within it. I do not understand that there is a licence giving any particular powers of government ; I have not studied that j)oint. 1 do not know what powers of government the licence of exdusire trade gives ; but it is only under that licence that they can hold it. 4132. Are you aware whether the Canadian Government have now any power over that district which is so marked pink, because it is not included in Rupert's Land?-»-As I appreiiend, nothing whatever, except the power of trying otTences which may be committed within that territory ; no power of settlement, or of government of any other kind whatever. 4133. Why is it that you think they have no power of settlement, if the only jurisdiction of the Hudson's Bay Company over that territory is founded uj)()n their Hcence to trade ? — Because the only western boundary which is given to the province of (.'anada is the Mississippi River, and because that ter- ritory lies to the westward of the head waters of the .Mississippi. 4134. Is that answer which you have just given to me quite consistent with the opinion expressed by the I ommittee of the Executive Council of Canada, in the paper before us, to the effect that they recognise no western limit of Canada in that direction excepting the Pacific Ocean? — I admit that it is not consistent with that view ; but in what 1 am stating I look at the fact that all the documents emanating from the Crown which do give a western boundary to Canada, give the Mississippi River. If I am asked what my opinion uj)on the subject is, I do not know by what authority we cun extend west of it unless you give it to us ; that is my own opinion, and it must go for what it is worth. 4I;3j. Are you aware of any offences ever having been tried in Canada which were con mitted in that portion of the country? — Not since the disputes between the Hudson's Bay Company and the North-west Company. 1 con- fine my answer to Upi)er Canada. 413(1. Are you aware of any actual encroachments by American citizens across the boundary, with a view to the settlement of that country r— I am not. 4137. Have you any knowledge of the facilities for communication between Lake Superior and the Uetl River Settlement "r — None but what I derive from the information of other parties ; I have no personal knowledge whatever. 41 38. I suppose that the facts connected with that line of communication are well known in Canada, are they not ? — The Americans seem to adopt the view that it is jjossible. I have made an extract, which, with your permission, will just read, to show that they do not consider it so impracticable. General Cass, within a very short space of time, presented a petition to Congress for the very purpose of iiaving a couimuiiicatiou opened into that country by Pigeon River, treatiug the navigation as capable of improvement, which would be just on the boundary, between Canada in that part, or between the Hudson's Bay territory, as it may Iw, ami the United States territory, just below Fort William SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 223 William on the boundary line. The nature of the petition (I made an extract Ron. from a report of it) is this : " for a Government exploration and sun'ey of the W.K, Drcupw, «.b. Pigeon River, of Lake Superior, and of the route from the mouth of that stream, ~ or near thereto, to Rainy Lake on the United States boundary line, so as to ^' M«j» \*sn. make a practicable navigation from the Lower Red River of the North, by way of Lake Winnipeg to l^ke Superior ; they represent that at a reasonable cost the whole valley of the Red, Assinaboine, and Saskatchawan Rivers can be connected with Lake Superior." 41 39. Mr. Udward El/ice.] Do they specify the cost? — No; in petitions of this sort, when they ask for a Government exploration they keep the question of coat entirely out of view. 4140. Sir John Pakinfftofi.] Practically, at. this time the trade and commerce of the Red River is carried on to the south with the United Statt s, or to the north by Hudson's I5ay, is it not r — I apprehend it is so ; I do not know whether an)' of it gj)es west ; I believe nothing at present comes east. 4141. Do you know whether there are any such facilities between Lake Superior and the Red River as would allow of the conveyance of troops ?— I eau only judge from the information of others ; Lord Selkirk was able to carry troops into that country, but 1 suppose at that time the North-west Company, liavinir an interest in maintaining the communications, kept them in good repair ; since that time they have been suffered to rot away altogether. 4 1 42. Are you aware whether at this time any arrangements are in progress, or any orders are given for conveying troops from Toronto to the Red River Settlement, by the route of the St. Lawrence and round the Labrador coast into Hudson's Bay r — I have heard so since my arrival in England ; letters which 1 have received from Canada have stated that as a fact ; 1 have no other know- ledge of it ; a part of the Canadian Rifle Regiment ; according to information which I have received from Upper Canada in private letters, it is stated to me that there is a portion of the Canadian Rifles who are quartered in the province of Canada, and principally in the western portion of it, who are ordered for the protection or defence of the Red River Settlement, and who are to be sent rounil by sea to Fort York ; but I have no other knowledge of it than from having had that communication. 4143. Is it your belief that at present the means of communication are such as to make it possible to send that portion of the Canadian Rifles by Lake Superior and the direct route ? — I am quite sure that they were so, because troops have been sent that way ; I cannot say what tiiey are at the present moment. 4144. Mr. Edward Ellice.j How many years ago was that?— I refer to Colonel Crofton's evidence, who mentioned the fact that lie was aware that troops could come that way; and I refer to the fact that Lord Selkirk, in 1816 or 181", carried a body of men through there, together with artillery; he took a portion of the disbandf*d Demeuron regiment. 414,5. Mr. Kinnaird.'] About how many men r — It will be found in the Par- lianientiiry papirs which 1 refer to, of 1819, and 1 would rather refer to them for greater accuracy than trust my own memory. This regiment had been disbanded, and Lord Selkirk engaged them, or a certain portion of them ; he had two captains- 4146. You have referred to the circumstance of the Canadian people being anxious to have the boundary defined ; has there been any practical incon- venience found by any Canadian subjects from the undefined character of the boundary r — Not at present, that I am aware of. 4147. C/iairnuni.] I believe that public attention in Canada is now very much directed to the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Very mucli indeed. 4148. That has only occurred recently, I think? — Recently; when I speak of its attracting public attention I say certainly recently ; men who have been concerned with thinking for the future in Canada have thought of it a good many years ago. 4149. Mr. Grogan.] Do you suggest that Canadian settlement is progressing from Toronto and l)y the Ottawa and Lake Nipissing, and that way, up towards the lied River Settlement r — I stated that there are townships laid out, pai'ticularly on the north side of the River Ottawa, approaching to within a 0.34 — Sess. 2. E E 4 comparatively m '■^' 11 ■.•./>:-af- (1 m :!(! i , 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. W. H. Draper, c.b. 98 May 1857. •Iff coinpnrntively short distance of Lake Nipissing ; and that the whole of that river, at the time when the Nortli-west Company carried on their trtide, which was a very large one, wns imsettled, from the Falls of Chaudiere, the whole distance ui)ward ; that is in fact the most difficult part of the navigation. There are now townshi])s laid out going up to Lake Nipissing. 4150- Is the navigation on the Ottawa tolerably good now ?— It is broken by rapids ; but the Canadian (lovernment have a survey now going on, for the purpose of ascertaining the best mode of improving it. 4i.')>. Then when you referred to the settlements or the townships being laid out along the northern hank of the Ottawa, and to the intended impro"ement8 in the nangation of the river, that was part of your answer with regard to the communication between the Red River Settlement and Canada r— It was just to show that a country which at one time was entirely barren, unoccupied, un- settled, and which interposed great obstacles to the .lavigation at that time, was now becoming settled, and that all those difficulties were being removed ; and that if it was feasible then to carry on a trade through the river with all those difficulties, it would be, li fortiori, more feasible when the country through which it was to pass was settled. 41. Si. If I understand your views, the communication would be almost entirely a water communication?— It would be so; but I suggested also that modern improvements would render that communication of the Ottawa un- necessary ; for we have a much more easy commimication ; and I pointed out that, by taking the way of the Welland Canal, and the way of the Sault Saint Mary Canal, a vessel of very considerable burthen loaded at Montreal could discharge her cargo, without any transhipment, at Fort William. 4' 53- That is altogether a summer communication? — It is. 4154. Has it occurred to you how that communication could be maintained during the winter ? — There will be always great obstacles, excepting by means of railways, and a long period must elapse before we can look for that ; there will be a period of from four to five months during which you must travel upon runners or not at all ; there is no other mode at present. 4155. But you look to the establishment of a railway ultimately? — I am sanguine enough to do so. 41.^6. And your view is, that by improving the existing water communication it will ultimately lead to the establishment of a railway? — I think that by improving,- the water communication at present, it will lead to a great deal of settlement up the Ottawa, and so facilitate the carrying of a railway in that direction. 4i,")7. You mentioned that at one period the French occupied a large portion of the Rupert's Land territorj', and also had some settlements on the Saskatch- awan' — 1 did not desire to express that they occupied large portions of the territory, I merely intended to say that they had trading posts passing through a portion of the territory ; I understand that they had one station upon the Saskatchawan River. . 41,58. They used the route from Fort William to the Red River settlement for the transmission of all their goods ? — Yes, the whole,. I believe, of the trade was carried through that course. 415(1. Was that trade considerable ? — I have understood it to be so. 4it3o. In what year was that ? — Commencing with the government under the Count Fron^^enac, or perhaps even at an earlier period, and passing through a variety of French Governments down to the year 1 763 ; I have a large volume of French correspondence, a quarto volume of 1,000 pages, from which, in different portions of it, I could point out how that trade was carried on ; it is the correspondence of the French Government in Canada with their own authorities in France. 4161. They followed the route of this river which you are describing?— They followed the route of the Ottawa for that trade principally ; they had a station at Michilimakinac and also a station at Detroit, but the larger portion of the trade was carried up the Ottawa. 4iti2. Is it the impression on your mind that at that period the route by Fort William and along the river towards the Red River Settlement was in a better condition than it is now?— I cannot state what its conditio:! is now. I can only say that it was practicable for the purposes of carrying on that trade ; ,.l SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 225 trade ; and at a much more modern date the North-west Company from Mon- Hon. treal carried on a similar trade with very large profits. If. H. Draper, c-h. 41(13. That route, as represented at present, is all but impracticable ? — So 1 understand. I can fpiito conceive it to be so. If you are required to lay out ^^ ^^7 '857. a causeway of logs across a swamp for t«o, three, or four miles, and make no repairs to it for 25 years, it standi? to reiison that it must get out of repair ; so that you will have a swamp to walk through with broken logs, instead of any- thing to get across in a proper manner. 41(14. The practical result then is, that there was a greater facility of com- munication with those districts 100 years ago than there is now? — I should draw that conclusion from the tacts which I have mentioned. Of the fact of the trade there is no doubt. 41 1).). Mr. J. //. GinTia/.] Have there been within a recent period, that is to sny, within a few years, certain collisions between the Indians and the Canadian Government upon islands in the northern part of Lake Superior which were colonised for the purpose of mining ? — There was a very much magnified story made out of it ; there was one collision, and i think I could refer to documents which would show who the pnrties were from whom that collision proceeded. I believe parties who were desirous of obtaining some licences for the purpose of copper mining set the Indians up, in order to coerce the Government into the terms which they themselves desired to obtain. I think it emanated from Canadian propositions, not from the Indians themselves. 4ifi6. 'Iheii you are not apprehensive of a recurrence of similar collisions in any portions of the Hudson's Bay Company's territories m hich might pass from the control of the Company into that of the Canadian Government? — I have already stated, and would repeat ihe answer, that I think if the Indians are justly dea't with (I mean by that if they aie not deprive d of their property with- out a reasonable conijiensation) there is no such danger. I do not think they can be plundered with impunity. ', • 117. Is the general feeling in Canada on that subject such as would tend ;,' 'v. .1 Canadian Government to pursue that course of justice towards the Ind' 1 such a contingency ': — I believe that in no instance in modern times ; in 1 .. .aiice since 1 have known anything of the government of that province, have lands been taken from the Indians excepting by express treaty with their chiefs, when the compensation was arranged, and it has been paid in pursuance oi it ever since. I believe that to be so. I know of several instances in which it has been done. Some of them took place when I was a member of the Canadian Government myself 4168. Chaintian.] Have you had any opportunity of forminp: an opinion of the manner in which justice is administered on the whole by the Hudson's Bay Company throughout that grtat territory ? — I know nothing of it except from the publiiihed reports. 1 have no other source of information than those. 4i()9. Mr. Zoat'.] You spoke of an inlerim arrangement being necessary while the requisite surveys and explorations took ]jlace by the Canadian Government ; what sort of arrangement would that be r— An urrani^ement of the governing of the territory by a governor in council was the suggestion I offered. 4170. C/iainnan.] You think that that should be done at once ? — It appears to me so. 4171. Mr. JLouc] You spoke of a route into Canada up the valley of the Ottawa, as I understood, to be explored and laid out; do you consider it likely that that route. can ever be so good a one for commercial purposes as the route through the United States to the Red Kiver Settlement? — I should never pro- pose, for the jmrpose of commercial intercourse, that the trade from the Red Kiver should be taken upon the Ottawa ; the more natural course if it comes through Canada, is to come along Lake Sujierior and Lake Huron, and to pass down from Lake Huron into Lake Erie and through the Welland Canal into Lake Ontario ; that is the obvious natural course, for there would be no transhipment. 4172. You anticipate it to be possible to make a route by that course which should communicate sufhciently with the route to the head water of the Mis- sissippi to send up there ■ — All I can say is, that unless you can do that, farewell to its being maintained long as a British territory. 4173. (J/iain/ian.] Why do you say that you think it necessary to make some 0.24- Sess. -. F F special 4 '] 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. W.H. Draper, c.n. a8 May 1857. special arrangement with regard to the possible future construction of a raihvay across the whole continent to the Pacific ; supposing that the land up to the Rocky Mountains on the one side belonged to Canada, and the land to the west- ward of the Rocky Mountains to the sea belonged to another British colony, do you think that there would be any difficulty in making an arrangement for the coustrue'.ion of a railroad in which both colonies would have an obvious interest ? — I have always found that if you can foresee a difficulty it is better to anticipate and prevent it than have to deal with it after it has arisen ; it was only that sort of spirit actuating my own mind which induced mc to make the su suggested, that inasmuch as it would relieve the Hudson's Bay (Jompany from a very expensive administration, aiid supersede the necessity of their maintaining the large start of people that they must maintain at present, they might be called upon to pay such a rent as would go a long way towards maintaining the Government. 4179. Do yon believe a regular settlement to be of much value to the Hud- son's Bay Cunijiany as a commercial comj)any r— In my own judgment, I should have tliought that the expense Mould give thorn no adequate return, hut 1 inuy be quite mistaken. 4180. LovA John Russell.] IJut is there not a probahiltty that persons who claimed to settle, antl endeavoured to make settlements, would have in view an interference with the trade, espeiially the fur trade, of the Hudson's Bay Com pany " ) SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 227 paiiy : — I have no doubt there are rr any peoplo actuated by that very feeling, both Americans and English, or Canadians. 4181. Therefore, although settlement was stated to be their purpose, it would not be their 6o7irty4V^t' intention? — I believe there are many people who would desire, nominally, to f xlend settlement thnt they might get a share in the fur trade itself. In the olden time it war, -cported by the French Governor of Canada that the .lesuiis were very anxious to extend posts, as they said, for Christianising tl Indians, but thai with them Christianity meant beaver. 4' .> J. And in the same way at the present time settlement might mean beaver " — Ic might mean beaver, or other valuable furs ; I would not take upon mvself to say that it would. 418,5. Mr. Edvard E/lice.] Do not you think, with reference to your last answer, that it is the interest of the Hudson's Bay Company tc prevent, as much as they can, the inroads of Americans over the frontier? — I think it is their interest to keep everybody out of the country as much as they can ; it always has been ; in a commercial point of view, I think so decidedly. 41 S4. Have you ever heard complaints made that the liudson's Bay Company have been negligent, in so far as regards American inroads ; that they have admitted American settlers into the country?-- 1 think the Hudson's liay Com- pany cannot be accused of anything like neglect. 418,1. .And you think it is their interest to preserve that frontier from the incursions of the Americans ? — I thhik it is their interest 'n keep any persons from getting into that territory, excepting those who are under their own imme- diate management. 4i8ti. Mr. Gladstone.^ Do you think that they draw any distinction between British inroads and .American inroads ?— I do not. 41 87. Chairman^ If the tur trade were thrown open to unlimited competition, I suppose at first for a tew years a great deal of money might be made by all comers ? — As a mere matter of speculative opinion, I should think that with the advantages which the Hudson's Bay Company have in the possession of the territory, in posts established, and with the communications at their own disposal, they would engross for a long time all the most valuable part of the commerce ; but that is a mere matter of opinion, founded uj)on a given state of facts. 41 88. Do you believe that it would lead to the destruction of the fur-bearing animals .' — It is a point upon which I really do not feel competent to express an opinion. 4189. I think your objection to the unlimited access of all par'^ies into that country for the purpose of fur trading rather refers to the effect which it would have upon the Indians by supplying thein with spirits, which ycu believe would be the necessary consequence of such a state of things ? — 1 must say that I look, for myself, with a very lively alarm at the notion, which I know has been enter- tained by some people, of abrogating as it were all the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company at once, and for this plain reason, their trade with the Indians has imported certain thintTS which are absolute necessaries for the Indians, — ammunition, guns, blankets, and a variety of thinus, which before they knew the Europeans at all they provided for m some other way ; if you cut otl those suj)- plies by abrogating this trade, one consequence would be, I am sati •fied, that no private individuals could supply tlieir place for a great length of time ; you must have ai.other comjjany start up in their place ; and I confess I do not see any benefit in taking away one company for the mere purpose of substituting another ; the result wotdd be, in my humble judgment, that vou would expose these Indians to perish from starvation, or expose them at all events to very great suffering ; ai\(l it would have a tendency to make them war one upon .not her, or upon the nearest white people whom they could get hold of, in order to main- tain an existence. 4U)(i. If the trade were absolutely free, do you imagine that it would be conducted by different companies which would spring up, or by private individuals? — I suppose that what has been found to exist would irobably result aKain. Alter the peace of 17(53 a number of independent individuals, and some small independent companies, endeavoured to carry on the same fur trade with the north-west that the French had carried on before the peace of 17G3; they were alwuys conflicting, trying to outbid and out-jockey one another, in getting the furs from the Indians, and one disappeared before the 0.24 — Seas. 2. f f j superior Hon. . H. Draper, c.b. 28 May 1857. 1 fii .'NTf- 228 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE IN iir i J* fmm Hon. superior activity and wealtii of another, until at last they all joined together into W.H. Draper, c.K. two great companies, and those two great companies combined into one, which ~ p became the North-west Company; I think there were the X. Y. Company and ft • «y 1857. ^^^g North-west Company, but they became at last simply the North-west Com- pany ; they all got together into one at hist. 4191. Mr. Gladstone.^ On the otiier hand, is it not tho fact that the system of monopoly has likewise its own dark side with reference to the Indians, and that the effect of it is to kee|) them in a position of tlie most helpless dependence, and to establish a system under which the return for their labour is totallv insignificant, while the article which they sell to the Hudson's Bay Company is the medium of enormous profits' — Such would appear to be the case. If what I read is true, that a silver fox skin, or some other very valuable skins, are obtuiaed for tliree or four tin kettles, of course it must b^; so : but I have no knowledge of it as a fact myself. 419a. Mr. Edwfird Ellice.] VV^ith respect to the commuriication between Red River and Canada, has it entered into your contemplation at whose expense that communication is to be made ; is it to be made by the province in the first instance ? — Uncjuestionably. 4193. Are you uware, with regard to railways at present in Canada, of the circumstances under which the Ottawa and Lake Huron Railway is proposed to be made? — Yes; by a grant of public lands in aid of a private company. 4194. Are you aware that 4,000,000 acres of land were last year granted by the Canadian Legislature for the purpose ? — I believe they were. 419.5. And without success? — I do not believe they have begun anything at all yet, and I do not l)elieve they will begin for a very considerable time, for I believe that a railway is the last communication which will be made ; I believe other communications will be made long before tliey attempt to make a railway. 4196. With regard to the question of settlement in Canada, I suppose from the position which you have held, you know what proportion the settled land in Canada bears to the unsettled. I find that in a report which is printed by the authority of the Government of Canada, so late as this very year, it is stated that in Canada there are about 350,000 square miles, out of which but 40,000 are settled • — That is to say, which are cleared. 4197. I find it also stated that there are about 310,000 square miles of uninhabited country : — Very likely. 4198. Which anioiints to about 108,000,000 acres of unsettled country? — I think it very likely ; if you look at tlie map, r..id see where that is, you can very easily account for it ; you will see that it lies on the north of the River St. Law- jcnce, on the Labrador coast, wiiere the climate is coldest, and where there is the least inducement for settlement. You will r.ot find it the case to the west- ward ; you will hnd nothing approaching that number of acres ; you will not iiuc' that it is not taken up to that extent, or anything like it, between Lake Huron, Lake I'.ric, and Lake Ontario. That pp.rt of the country »hich is really inhabitable, and capable of improvement, is taken up as fast as the Govern- ment opens it. 4191. You made some remarks with regard to extending the line to the north- ward of the present boundary of Canada ; are you at all yourself aware, or by communications with other people, of the nature of tl. i country about the present boundary line marked on that map ; the 1^ undary line "jxtending from north of Quebec to north of Sault St. Marie, near 1 rederick-house? — Commencing at the lower part which yoi speak of, namely, the Saguenay River, I have understood from a gentleman in town, who has been up the Saguenay, that settlements are extending up t'lat river to a very considerable degree ; much more than I should have supposed at all. 4200. Are you aware of the evidence which has been given here by Mr. Ross with regard to the Saguenay ? — I think I read it. 4J01. Are you aware that people often are in danger of starvation in the winter, owing to the climate there preventing the crops in the summer ntices- sary to their subsistence ripening? — I do not think that that is peculiar to the Saguenay, because you will Hnd in the history of the legislation uf Lower Canada repeated applications year after year for assistance from the Legislature trom the farmers at the eastern portion of the river to purchase seed wheat. 420i2. Owing ire miles of 38 May 1857. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 229 420'2. Owing to the climate? — Owing to the climate, and owing to the failure Hun. of the crops. Those applications I know were made before the union of tlie pro- '*'• W. Draper,c.B. vince, and in one or two instances, I think, but am not quite sure, since the union of the province. 4203. How do you account for settlement extendinj^ in that direction under such unfavourable circumstances, when they can go elsewhere in Upper Canada? — Not knowing exactly how the thing is, J would rather refer to those who are bet' ..ormed than myself on the subject. I will mention the UHme of Mr. Rocue, who has been up that river, and who can give you much more informa- tion tiian I can. 4204. Supposing tliat a government were settled at Red River, do you think that the great distance from Montreal would not be very much against it '? — I cannot presume to say wiiere the seat of government of Canada will be ; T suppose it will be with reference to something like centrality. 420.5. Mr. (.'/iristi/.^ M'ith respect to tlie fur-bearing- animals, I suppose the Indians would always remain the hunters of thr.l country in your opinion ? — I have heard, but I speak only from what I have heard, that the most fatal enemies to the fur- bearing animals are half-breeds, or even white trappers, and that they destroy the animils much more even tiiauthe Indian hunters do ; I merely speak from what I have read and heard ; 1 h ive no personal knowledge whatever on the subject. 4206. You were speaking of the exclusive right to trade on the part of the Hudson's Bay Comj)any for a limited period ; I understood you to say that that should be confined to the district north of the line which you pointed out your- self? — Yes, any conventional line that may be thought fit and proper; I merely suggest the necessity of establishing a conventional line, and that the right of exclusive trade siiouid not extend to the southward of that line, wherever it may be. 4207. Would you contemplate in that arrangement that the Indian hunters, or parsers who became possessed of furs, should not be allowed to dispose of them to any o.her parties than to the Hudson's Bay Company? — Do you mean the furs collected within that country. 4208. The furs collected within that country ? — I suppose that would be a necessary result of' granting an exclusive licence to trade. 42up. You mean that tlie parties possessing themselves of furs within that nortiiern limit which you have defined, should have no right of sellin miles apart from ouch other • and 1 alwavs in the »unimer undertake a journey of some extent, varying it from year to year ; that is to say, tor al)out the four summer months, during which alone I can travel to any great distance. 4L',V1. Are there rlcrgynicn attached to the stations which you have mcntioni'd ' — Yes. to both of them ; there is a clergymuii connected with the (/'hurcli Mission- ary Society at earh of tlioso spots. 4'23(i. Will you have the kindness to give tiie Committee an idea of what ii the nature and extent of the system of clerj^y of the Church of Engliind over which \ou preside" — I think tiierc are 19 clergy besides myself; that is to say, we are altogether '10 in number. When 1 went out we were five in number, and that has been the increase in seven years. Of those clergy, 15 are furniitlied by the Church Missionary Society, two are furnished by the Society for the Propagation of the liospil, one by the Colonial Church Society, and one is chaplain to the Hudson's Bay ( ompany. 4237. They are paid by those societies? — Exactly so. 423S. Will you allow nie to ask you from what source /our own revenue is derived: — My own revenue is derived from a bequest r the late Mr. Leith, chief factor, which was left for the benefit of the Indians. There was afterwards a suit in Chancery regarding it ; it was litigated by the members of his own family ; bur it was at last dtcided by the Master of the Holls, Lord Langdale, in favour of the establishment of ii bishopric. 'I'he dividends from that bequest amount to about 380/. a year, and Lord Langdale made it a proviso in giving the judgment that the Company should attach a chaplaincy also, which is 30(1/. a year, so that my whole income is 680/. or 090 /. a year. 4239. Then it is derived, as I understand it, pai^iy from this bequest, and partly from the funds of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Yes. 4240. But the whole is paid to you through the instrumentality of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Yes ; so that I derive none from England ; it is in u measure paid from the land itself. 4241. Viscount Guderkh ] But the whole of it is paid under the judgment of the Master of the Rolls? — Yes; the 380/. is the dividend from the funded property in London, and the 300 /. extra for the chaplaincy is from the adjudi- cation of the Master of the Rolls. 4^42. Mr. Edward Ellice.~\ It was a voluntary grant on the part of the Hud- son's Bay Company, was it not ? —Entirely so, except that Lord Lanizdale, if I understand it, would not give judgment until that had been done. There would not have been enough for the foundation of the bishopric without the chaplaincy. 4243. The 300 /. on the part of the company is a voluntary grant of itself? — I imagine so, only that it is tied up by Lord Langdale's decision. 4244. C/iaimuin,] Their payment of that 300/. a year, which no doubt was voluntary on their part, was, as, I understand it, the condition attached to their receiving the larger sum from this bequest for the endowment of the bishopric? — Quite so. 424,5. Is this jiayment secured to the bishopric of Rupert's Land, or could this arrangement be disturbed, at the option of the Hudson's Bay Company, at any time ? — I hardly imagine that it could be disturbed. 4246.' You believe that it is secured ? — I believe so ; I think the nature of the legal deci-sion secured it. 4247. Do you think that the present system is efScient in doing good among the Indians ? — Very much so indeed. If 1 had been told, eight years ago, that the amount of good which has been produced could have been effected, 1 should hardlv have thought it. There is a larger amount of good effected than I had expected upon going out to the country. 4248. Have they been Christianised to any considerable extent? — Very largely in particular parts; at the Indian settlement on the Red River, and at Moose Fort r- ' '- "— Cumberland. Moose Fort on James's Bay, and also on the Saskatchawan, at Christchuich, ill' 4249. Mr. Kitinnird.] I believe you have with you a paper ; can you furnish the number of stations and agents of the Church Missionary Society ?— Yes ; I have three documents which can be given in. [His Lordxhip delivered in the same, which are as follow :] SELECT COMiMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S HAY COMPANY. a33 (A.) Statement retiiecting the Operation* of the Church Miwionary Society in North Wcf t America. TiiK Cluirch MisHiuniiry Society wos fintt induced to undertake a misnion to the terri- tories of the Hud««)ii'« Hiiy Coiiipony in consequonco of the reprcienlations nm. 4JuDe I8j7. (B.) STATUTick oitbu Chiirch MiMioiiary Society'* North V\'ett Auiericau Miiwon: 1827. STATIONS. MI88IO.N.VR1ES AND ASSI.SIANTS. Con. Scbolm. Bad Rirer Diatrict : St. Aiulrcw'g C'liurch - - Vcuerabie Archdeacon Hunter - Rev. W. W. Kirkby j 200 — School - Mr. C. Mayhew, Model Training Master. - School at Middle Church - 251 Park'* Creek Little Urituiu Native Schoolmasters - Muplcton Indian .Settlement Church . Rev. A. Cowley 150 Settlement School -1 Schod at Broken llwul Kivorl Fort Alexander -| Native Schoolmasters - 123 Old Soullcaux -J Portftge La Prairie : Chutch - Venerable ArchdrAcon Cochran - 47 __ School - Native Schoolnmater . - - - 37 lelington : School-house Rev, R. M 'Donald (country -born). Native Schoolmaster - - - — 12 Fairford : Church J I Rev. W. Stagg. iiev. James Settee (pun Indian) 26 — School at Station Out-«tation, Jack River -1 -J Native Schoolmasters - 1. fi2 Fort PeUy Charies Pratt (native catechist) - - i Cumbei4«nd : Christ Church -} Rev. 11. Ocorge - . _ Rev. Henry Budd (jmrc Indian). 110 — Two Sol»ooli - Native Schoolmasters - lOJ Ont-atatioo, Nepowewin - Thomas Cooke (native catechist) 27 1 16 Mottse Lake - John Unipherville (native cate- chist). 23 1 1 28 BngUsh Biver : 1 Chtirdi (building) • Rev. R. Hunt - - - - 73 _ School - Native Schoolmafter - - - - 76 York Fort: 1 Cbnroh - Rev. W. Mason 24 _ School - - - - .Native Schoolmaster - - 58 Out-station, Churchill. — — — Severn. __ ^ _- Moose Fort : Church . . - - Rev. J. Horden - - . «5 School - Native Schoolmaster - - - - 30 Otrt-Btation, Rupert's House — — — Albany Isaac Ilardisty. — — Oenaburgh. ~ "— * 774 795 Beyond the Rocky Mountains : Fort Simpson, Columbia Stations not fixed - 4 June 1857. MuaioNABiES and Agents. Mr. W. Duncan, Trained Schoolmiwter (on his way). Rev . E. A. Watkin ; removed from Fort Geoi^f, Jiiincs's Bay. Rev. T. H. Fleminj. Mr. Gardner, Catechist. iiili, Henrij Venn, Hon. Sec. Church Missionary Sodoty. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TIFE HITDSON'S BAY COMPANY, ag/; won: 1857. im- lowU. Ncbului. iOO • 251 150 __ 47 25 123 37 12 62 110 I — 101 27 i 16 23 28 73 — 24 58 95 30 774 795 er (on his way). lu Fort Geoiige, raary Society. (C.) CoMPAi«;(Ttv« ExPiNnmmK of the Church Mimionary Society on nccount of the North WcMt AiiKTictt Miwion, for 10 Yearv, 1847-4H to lb5«-57. RIfht Rrr. D.P. TEARS. 1847-4H 1H48-4!) 1840-60 1850-61 1851-62 1852-53 1863-64 1854-66 1865-66 1H56-57 A M ir N 1 '• £. 1. d. 1.910 8 - 1,005 - 2 1,789 I - 2,100 10 9 2,877 5 a 3,471 3 3 4,002 7 u 5,856 2 7 5,711 18 - 5,672 12 11 4 June 1857. Utnri/ Vn», Hon. Sec. Church MiMionnry Society. 4 Jan* >V57- 4'J5o. How far are you personally acquainted with the t^ ations and operations of the society within your diocese i* — I have visitid every station twice over that is occupied by any missionary. 4251. What is your opinion of the character of the missionaries on tht whole '. -They are very devoted and faithful men, and are doing a va t amoun* 'ned clergymen, that is to say, native Indian clergymen, and one who is a country-born clergyman, namely, born in the country, but not an Indian in the same sense as the other two. 42.54. Do you find them very efficient and competent: — They are very useful in acting on their countrymen. >>till my own impression is, that the perfection of work is a European and an Indian together; that there should be the Eurojieau head, and the Indian as the mouthpiece. 4'^55> What success should you say has attended the labours of the mis- sionaries in the instruction of the Indians, speaking generally from your eight years' experience?— Cirtat success in particular placr- • the Indian settlement is like a pari.^h at home in some measure, where tlieyhri r; eir little farms around them, and some of the comforts of life. 425t). What is your estimate of the number of Indians under Christian instruc- tion in the country r — It is very difficult to return an exact answer, because so many merely come to the missionaries lor a short j .t riod of the year ; many of them only come for a fortnight in the autumn, and a fortniglit in the spring, and arc away at their hunting-ground all the winter ; but f think if you take those who are acted upon by Christi.uiity, there may be from 8,000 'o 10,000 who are acted upon more or less by it. 4257. How far have those who are brought under influence been induced to adopt settled and industrial habits ? — Where it is jjossible tliey do adopt habits of industry, but that is only in the southern part of the territory ; it is possible at the Indian settlement on the Red River, but it is not po«^sible at Moose, on James's Bay, and not possible at York, on the Hudson's Hay. 42,'-,S. Why is it not possible at Moose on James's Bay? — From temperature : from the climate. 4259. Chairman.] Is the temperature such that the ground is susceptible ot 0^24— Sess. 2. o G 2 no m 936 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE mm ii-it ■' II H -I ii 1 . , «b iii'i Right Rev. David AHdtrion, D. D. 4 June 1857. no kind of cultivation ?— Very little. At Moose they have tried crops of different kinds ; wheat of rapid growtli ; but they can hardly depend upon it at all. 4260. I presume that if that is so, cultivation is quite impossible at York?— Quite impossible ; but at the Red River, where T live, the crops are remarkably good ; I think as good as in any part of Canada. 4a6i. Wheat is, comparatively speaking, a delicate plant ; are there no other kinds of crops which can be cultivated at the Moose settlement r — Tiicy hope to grow a little barley, but it is very uncertain from year to year, from the summer frosts. 4262. Mr. Kimiaird.] What is the social state and prospects uf that Christian village called the Indian Settlement, on the Red River r — The population there increases at the present moment. 4263. The purely Indian population increases ? — Yes. 4264. Have you any statistical fact of th;it increase ? — I have here th'i follow- ing, which is from the register of the settlement. The total numbtr of baptisms administered in this parish (that is the Indian settlement parish) in l.'i years is 545 ; total of deaths, 308 ; balance in favour of the increase, 237. 4265. That is a very .'arge incrense, is it not?— Yes; that is from the actual return on the spot, from the register. 4266. Would you gather from that fact, that if you were enabled to form otiicr settlements of these Indians in a good climate, you have reason to suppose that the same results would occur? — I think so; I think when settled the Indians increase ; Uf the country they would decrease, from want of food and want of clothing. 4267. Do ihe births among the settled Indians exceed the deaths generally r— Yes, wherever they are Christianised and settled. 4268. What is the state of the Christian Indians wlio are still leading the life of hunters ; « ho are still following their old occupation ? — I think many of them very exemplary, but chiefly around -Moose Fort ; that is our best exemplication of missionary work. There the Indians only come perhaps for a short time in the autumn, and a short time in the spring, and arc away almost the whole of the winter. They come to the minister on the spot and get instruction. They are chiefly taught in this system {producing a paper), not in our own characters, but in what we call the syllabic character, a sort of system of short-hand. 4269. Is that found very effective r — On this plan they can learn in three days enough to puzzle out the system for themselves ; but in a week they can learn sufficient to go away imd read their I ttlc books fortiie winter. 4270. Have you found them bring back tlie same books, having improved between the periods of their hunting and returning? — Yes; they wear their books to the very last degree ; and "hen away from the minister they have their own family worship night and morning, and have their worship on the Sunday when it come 3 round. 4271. What do you find is the capacity of the Indians for reading and writing iheir own language r — I think they are very quick. Since I have been in London I have received a letter frou) them written in this syllabic character, and tliey write .ne to another as freely as we siiould write letters. 427^!. What are the advantages of the syllabic system of writing? — It abridges the extreme length of the Indian words. The word for " darkness" (in " lighten our darkness ") has 21 letters in the Indian language, written in full ; but it would be very much abridged in this syllabic character. The word for " God, ' which we write in i-.iigiish perhaps in seven letters, has only three syml)ols in this character ; so that it is as short to write as "(iod" with ourselves. 4273. Then you think that the Indians have responded to the benefits which they iiave had of tlie teaching to a much greater (le,;ree than you expected when you went out r — Very nmeh more so. I am sure that a visit to Moose from any one would convince him of the fact. 4274. Do you think that more could be done for the Indians than has been done. Can you suggest any increased means. Conid the Company do more for the beni'tit of tiic Indians? — I addressed a memorial to the Company lately (the Company asked me to address any suggestions which I had to make on coming home), and it was received by them in a very friendly spirit. I have a copy of the memorial here. 4275. What is the general cliaracter of the relations between the Indians and the Company ; is it considerate and kind, should you say from your experience, or SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY 237 or the contrary ? — I think the Company have done much for the Indians in the length of time that they have possessed the country ; much in saving the Indians through the length and breadth of the land. Of course, in some ways, I could wish that they hiid done more in the way of education ; and in this memorial which I presented to the Company, I proposed the giving of a grant in aid if they would plant education at some of the leading forts up the country ; they advancing one half, and the Church givinpnse and the Church the remaining half, it would be a mighty lever for elevating and improving tlie land. It would l>c a source of grout pleasure to nif if the Comiwny would siuiction such a proi)os«l, even tor four or five of the principal forts. i'uch matters are more under my own cognizance than the details of social and political economy. 1 Ciuuuit, however, refrain from saying, tiiat 1 deem the present tariff on gwKls at York, at the Red River, and vip the country, higher than can be justified on the ujual principles of commerce. I only mention this as a subject for the consideration of the jJoard, as 11 point which I feel it difficult to account for when called upon to do so in public. The Indian tarift" might, 1 have always thought, be somewhat more equalised over the country. An identity (if price for furs is not, of course, to be expected ; but a greater equality of jjrico might. I am sure, jjrevail with great advantage when two forts are so near !is Fort Alexander and tlie Red River, or even Cumberland and Norway House. In saying this, I must, however, profess an entire ignorance of such concerns, having always purposely abstained from entering into them. Of the gcnerid fact I am of necessity conscious, and merely on that accoimt would plead, as I am in dutv bound; on behalf of the poor Indian, who has often represented to me his condition, and begged mo to undertake his cause. On the gcnenil question of the trade of the country, I subjoin an extract from a letter received since my return to England from one formerly in my own diocese, but now in that of Toronto, who is a shrewd and acute observer of passing events, and whose name will at once suggest itself to many of the committee, and which tends to corroborate many of the views given in the above memorial. Referring to the agitation in Canada on the subject of the charter, the writer ob- serves — *' After four years' residence in Canada, my own opinions are unchanged as to the evils that would follow free trade in furs. It would doubtless enable unscrupulous adventurers to make money in the southern jiart of the territory. Rum would be largely used, and the Indians greatly demondised, and difficulties consequently thrown in the way of mis- sionary operations. I never hesitate to express my oj.iniou to that effect whenever I taa asked what I think of the movement. " The Com|»iiny will moreover have to relax their sv.-;ci''. It is useless to attempt keep- ing things as they were 100 years ago. All the souther.. ;; irts of the territory susceptible of imjirovcnient will have tlan mcntiimcd to mo by Governor Johnson shall be carried out) would be pr.iducti\e of the best e.)nsei|Uences. Tin- chief ditticulty to my own mind has idways lieen the entire disuse of s]iiiits along vast tracts Mr, Christi/.'] Is the country between Lake Winnipe^^ and the Moose Factory well wooded ? — In parts it is. The part that is best adapted for agricul- ture is ni'ai' Fort Alexander, jusi after leaving Lake Winnipeg, and where I think there might be a settlen^ent if it were fostered ; that is, just ct the southern extremity of Lake Winnipeg. 4306. Viscount Goderic/i.j Somewhat to the north-east of the Red River Set- tlement ?~Ye8. 4307. Mr. Christt/.l Can you inform the Committee what the prevailing kinds and quality of the wood there grown are " — There is not a great amount of large timber on the route going to Moose; there is a great deal of rock on the way. I do not think there is timber which would be valuable on the way to Moose. 4308. You think that for a timber trade it would not be likely to answer? — Certainly not. 4309. Have SELECT COMiMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 241 4309. Have there been any facilities given by the Company for a trade in timber ? — I am not aware of any. 4310. Mr. Roebuck.'} Are you aware of any market for timber there ? — Merely for the wood which is used in burning. 4311. Is there any market there for timber? — Merely for house-building purposes. 4312. Tlie timber of commerce I think is chiefly confined to pine and oak Is there any market for pine and oak there ? — Merely for building. 4313. Merely for the settlement ? — Merely for the settlement. 43:4. There are no means of exportation ? — None. 4315. And therefore the timber trade cannot be said to exist there ? — No. 4310. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] I think your Lordship said just now that there was no limber there which would make a trade ?— Not along the route to Moose. The oak only lasts a little way on the route to Moose; you very soon lose 'he oak at one particular spot. 431 7. Viscount Goderich.~\ Will your Lordship tell the Committee what route you followed from Lake Winnipeg to Moose ? — By Fort Alexander, across Lake Sal, by Osnaburgh House, Martin's Falls, down the Albany River, and from Albany to Moose. 4318. What mode of conveyance did you use ? — A canoe. 4319. How long did it take your Lordship to go from Fort Alexander to Moose ? — I was absent going and returning three months and a half, spending a fortnight at Modse. 4320. It took you about six weeks then ? — Yes. 432 1 . Mr. Christt).'] Does the character of the vegetation show any amelioration of climrte in that quarter, as compared with the country between Lake Winnipeg and York Fat;tory r — I think it has hardly been sufficiently tried around the Red River ; that is to say, where the agriculture exists ; we have not as yet any amelioration of climate. 4322. Mr. Roebuck.'] I suppose the extent of clearing is small? — At the Red River they have cleared almost too much where they have begun clearing ; that 13 to say, they sweep away trees and all. 4323. Is the area of clearing larger — It extends down the Red River, say 30 miles. 432i. Taking the face of the country, is the area of clearing large ?— It is very small. 4325. Therefore any amelioration from clearing can hardly be expected ? — No, not as yet. 4326. Mr. Christy.'] I believe that the country round James's Bay was the earliest oroupied by the Hudson's Bay Company ; has yuur Lordship any reason to believe that the animal resources of the country in that district are beginning to fail ? — I think that living is more difficult than it was formerly, from all I hear. They are very dependent on the fowls, or the goose-hunt which is con- ducted at Albany. In the one year when I visited Albany they had 20,000 of the wild geese, and then they stopped ; that was enough for their imrrediate wants. 4327. With regard to the animals, you think that they are more scarce ? — I think so. 4328. And living is iiior(> difficult ? — Yes ; that is the gtii- ral report of the Indians themselves. 4329. Are bufifaloes, and deer, and the larger animals wliich supply food abundant ? — They vary very miuh from year to year ; the buffalo has almost failed the last year ; but then they mnv be more abundant the following year, 4330. Mr. Itochuck.} The buffak; '.^ always confined to a certain district, is it not r — Yes. 4331. Where there is wood there is no buffalo"- — i.Ar.ctly so ; on the pra le and open land the buffalo is found. 4332. Mr. C/inrlcs lutzwilliam.] But I believe the buffalo is not found about Moose, is it r — No ; the buffalo is towards Fort Pelly ; towards the prairie land. 4333- Mr. Chrht^-] On what do the natives generally subsist ?— Upon the fish and upon the fowl. During portions of tlie yoar their food is so abundant, that they are very improvident as regards the rest of the year. 4334- Has your Lordship heard of any cases of death from starvation among 0.24 — Sess. 2. H H thu Right Rev. David Anderson, o. n. 4 June 1857- 1:1 Pi Hii> « mi. ^ V 1 •i '''■ ■ ■ '■} ,' !■; ■11 ii ii K. ». 4 June 1857. 042 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE the Indians?— They are higher up the countrv than mv own knowledue exteiiHs. ■ ' " 4.1:. ; Are you uwure whether the Company have made any attempt to collent the natixes into villapjt's, with a view to instruct them,, either in agriculture or otherwise, in any of tl *• districts whi.h your l^mlshiphas visited?— Those more distaiit spots are searct '.\ ajjricultural spots ; 1 think the effort to collect thein into villages has liardly M'en made by the Company. 4;i3r). Are the (:oni|)ar,y'8 forts ])rovided witli medical men. or persons qualified to aditunisler to the necessities of illness ":— There is a medical officer at York, there is a niedi(!al officer at Moose, and there are one or two medical officers at the Red Tiver. 4337- Have you found many Indians afflicted with disease, ?ind a"* all provided for by an) means whicii the Company liave ut tlieir dvposul f— Thev have each fort a supply of iiedicine, and even where there >;:) no' .'. medic. il off. 'ir th<"y give a supnly to tli m. 433S- Are au,' diseahi:J or old people amonjij tiie Indians supported by ili,- Company; are ;^here any means of sup|jort gU^n by mk; Consuay =. olii , v decayed Indians?— I think there ar^ pensionei-^, but not n.> a getieru'i rule. 4339- Vou do not kn(; v whether sn, sums of ., oney iii- appropriated at the annual nuetingi of the (,( because Portiige La Prairie has l)een establishi ': . were formed jjrior to my going out. 43.53. Can you tell us whether you think ta-x ■viits of the settlement . ' r.t of any obstruction I" of on the part of any of ' ;>,'n out in the seven years, U.'.\i, Ume ; the other settlements , ;'. y discouraging influence is used SELECT COMVUTTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 243 used by the Company with reference to settlements of that description which has come within your own kncwledge ! — I rather feel that i^ is not the vdsh of tlie Company that settlenieitts should be formed, because il increases the local expense of the Red River Government ; that is what I meant to explain before. 4354. Viscount Gntierich.] Tlierofore the result of your experience on the wliolp in that matter is, that the C(>mpany do not wisli s. ttlements to be formed ? — I think all would fee! that ; that it is not the direct object of the Company as a connnercial coinpany. 4 ;},5 1. Mr. lioehucU.'] 'Mint, in other words, they feel their interests opposed to till" increase of colonization r — Yes, I think so. 43,^(1. ."^Ir. ('/iristif.] Do vou think that there would be i^eat advantage to the country by an encouragemei-.t to settlement and colonization ; "colonization" is rather ;> granil if-rm, but sjM^iking in a moderate point of view ? — My own feeling is strong that colonization on a moderate scale might be adopted at the present nioment, just along from tlie Red River westward, and that it is a great object to the British (iovernmcnt to watch tlie whole of the frontier, and to occupy it as tinnly as possible. 4557. Cliuiniiuii.'] You think that ihe whole of the country wiiich abuts on the soutlurn border of the territory of the Hudson's Day Company is such that settlement should be encouraged there, so far as it will admit of it ? — I think so ; I think it is a sort of highway oi' the West, which ought to be so far strengthened in some way, i,nd settled along the boundary. 43,58. .Mr. Chmty.\ Following that point out, speaking of the benefit of the country, taking into account the character of the country, its climate, and its capabilities, do you think that great advantage might accrue to the whole terri- tory by a greater encouragement being given to settlement and colonization ? — I think so. very strongly ; to the southern part of the territory. 43,5). Looking ut tlie question in a broad sense, would not a great advantage be gained co the whole of those portions which are capable of settlement as respects climate, and as respects mineral resources, if greater encouragement were given to settlement and colonization ? — I think so, very strongly ; limiting the answer to the southern parallel of the country 43()0. Mr. Edward Ellicc] To what i)araliel do you allude there? — From 49 degrees, perhaps two or three degrees. 436 1. From 49 degrees northward ?— Yes. 4362. How far north, do you think ?— Certainly as far as Fort Alexander, which would include about 100 miles north. 4363. -Mr. Rochuvk.'] Would that stretch to the northern point of Lake Win- nipeg ; do you think that colonization is not possible to the northern point of Lake Winnipeg? — I think along the southern branch of the Saskatchewan, and a part of the northern branch, up to Edmonton. 4364. That is as far north as the northern point of Lake Winnipeg ? — Yes. 436). From the boundary line up to there, in your opinion, it is fidly capable of coloruzation ? — I think so, with advantage ; portions of that country. 436(1. Mr. Groi/rtw.} You would include Fort Cumberland ? — Yes, I would ; tb- c lies on me hue of the ^askatcllewan. 4367. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] What inducements which could be held out, do you think, would lead lo emigrants going there ; what inducements would you propose to be held out .' — I think they all could live comfortably on the produce of their own farms. ^3(18. Do you think that emigrants would go there merely upon the Govern- ment saying, " There is land for you to settle upon if you go," without any further inducement bi irg held out than possession of the Lmd? — I almost in.agip. 4'" o. ^haimiai..] Do you think it is desirable that that question should be V '■ the test of exper: i-^e ; that the country should be renderetl suscej)tible of vuement ?— I think so. At the Re' 111 .t we certaitdy want persons of defi- "I'te trades; we have no tradesmen, &: such, at tne present moment. Oi' fourse every man is everything; a carjienter is also a farmer, and raises his own crop. I think at the present moment, as I have said in the memorial to the Company, we want carpenters, and hlueksniiths, and masons. In the event of my rebuild- ing my own church, I shall be obhged to take out an architect, or a better builder. Sir George Simpson recommended me to do so. 1 think that some, 0.34 — Sess. 2. H II 2 even Right Rev. D.O. 4 Jant 1857. i I K! Hr !'.rii 244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Uight Kav. David Anderwn, ij.a. mm' |!'ii.rS! 4 June 1857. even if sent from industrial schools, might be of use to us at the present time' and that class of population. 4370. Mr. Lowe.] Supposing we should found a colony ; in the event of a wa with America, do you think we could retain it r — That is my own impression. 437'- How should we get at it to support it in case it was invaded ?— I hope from Lake Superior. 4372. Is not the only entrance to Lake Superior in the hands of the United States, namely, the canal by Sault Ste. Marie ?— I hope that the avenue towards Canada may be opened up .v.^^i' and more from year to year. 4373- Which way ?—Froin Lake Superior. 4374. Supposing we have got to the entrance of Lake Superior, is there not a canal by which you enter Lake Superior? — Yes; I mean keeping on Canadian or British ground. 437,V AH along the northern coast of Lake Superior ? — Yes. 4376. Mr. Roebuck.'] What is the communication between Lake Huron and Lake Superior? — I cannot give any definite statement beyond what is known to the Committee. 4377. Mr. Lowe.] It is a canal, is it not, which is in the American territory ? — Yes. 4378. Mr. Roebuck.'] Is there not a natural channel between the two lakes. Lake Huron and Lake Superior are surely connected, are they not ■ — I thought so. 4379. Mr. Edward FAlke.] Has your Lordship ever been that router — No. 4380. Viscount Goderkh.] In the event of a war with America, under exist- ing circumstances, surely the United States would be just as likely to take the territory as if it were settled ; and they probably would find it rather more easy to take it as it is now ? — I have scarcely considered that question. 4381. Mr. Groyan.] When your Lordship went out to your diocese, what route did you follow ? — I went out by the Hudson's Straits ; and returned by the Hudson's Straits ; so that I have nev'T been out of my own territory during the seven years that I have been away. 4382. You do not know anything of the route between Red River and Lake Superior ? — Of course it is a very commonly travelled route. I have not taken it on my way to Moose ; if I live to go to Moose again, I shall take that route. 4383. Mr. Christy.] In pursuance of those inquiries which I have made, I will ask you, with respect to tlic Red Hiver, what is your opinion of the poj)ula- tion there as regards their intelligence and their means of supporting themselves ; that is to say, their knowledge of agriculture and their general information and intelligence? — We have very good schools, better than the average of parochial schools. They iiave very much of the comforts of life ; more than the average of farm labourers at home ; and I think every year there is a great measure of intellectual development going on among them. 4384. With regard to tlie liaff-caste population, will you have the kindness to tell the Committee your ojiinion in reference to that portion of the inhabitants of the Red Rivci- SetilciDent ? — My own impression is favourable ; that we must look to the half-caste population as the strength of the settlement of the country. The numi)er of those of pure blood, the Scotcli population, is comparatively only small, so that our dependence roust be on the half-caste population in a great measure ; and they are those more immediately connected with my own church. 4,585. Mr. Roebuck.] Are you aware of any great settlement ever having been made by a half-ciste jjopulation on tlu continent of America .- — No, I have not. 4386. Are you at all aware of the fact tliat the brown population dies out as the white population advances r — Such is said to be the general statement ; but still, in our own case, as regards tlie Indian Settlement parish, it is the other way, the population is increasing. 4387. How la»*ge is tiie population in that parish which you now speak of :— It is one of four churclies on the Red River ; the In'Han Settlement parish has a population of ' lO. 4388. Indian., or half-breeds ?— Indians. 4 58;). How m;i!iy half-breeds arc there there?— They fomc iii the adjoiuug parish, higlier up on the Red River. 4390. How SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 2. )resent time 4390. How many half-breeds have you in your diocese ? — A very larjrc number ; perhaps 1 ,500 or 2,000 on the Red River. 4391. So that, tailing them altogether, adding the 2,000 half-breeds ^.) the 600 fuU-blouui-il Indians, you have 2,6(50 inhabitants with the Indian liood in them ? — Yes. 4392. Supposing colonization to be open to the white man, are you at all aware of the fact which has been proved by long history in America, that wherever colonization by the whiti' man takes place the brown man disappears ? —It has been so in the United States. 4393. Has not it been so in Canada ? — It has been in a measure true in Canada. 4394. So that, in fact, in all i)arts of the territory of America in which the white man has appeared, the brown man has disappeared ? — I am rather unwiling to believe it as regards one's own country, because I think that more of effort is made for the Indians. I am sure that the ilndian effort is more successful in our country than in the States or in Canada. 4395. You are speaking of the Indian effort applying to 2,600 persons ? — ^To the much larger number of 8,000 Indians, taking the whole territory. 4 596. buil that territory, I take it, hais nothing to do with colonization r — No. 4397. As to khat part which is affected at all by colonization, from the very imperfect colonizAtion to which it has been subject hitherto, your experience goes in favour of ^he fact that the brown man can resist the encroachments of the white man ? — It does, but of course I may be a partial judge in the matter. 4398. Have you at all contemplated the fact of the whole territory which is capable of colonization being thrown open to colonization ; what would then be the effect upon the brown man of that altered circumstance ? — I think of it almost daily. My ho])e is that the Indian may be raised in the interval before the civilization sweeps westward, as it must ; and I always feel that my object is to raise a people as well as to give them Christianity. 4399. Do tlie habits of the brown man ever make him a colonist ; have you any evidence i" the whole continent of America of the brown man being a colonist? —There are the Cherokees in the United States. 4400. How long has that experiment been tried ? — For som'' years wi';h the Cherokees. 4401. That is the soUtary case of the brown m«in withstanding the encroach- ments of the white man r — My impression is, that it has hardly been ^''.d well yet ; that we may be more successful than ir . ovious cases. 4402. Supposing that the policy of the Government were changed, and '^1' the territory were opened to colonization, should you then cnn 4'der it a matter jf very great importance to maintain the Indian population tliere ? — Very great. 4403. Why ? — My own feeling is, that by opening the whole country to free competition the Indian would be sacrificed. 4404. He would disappear? — Yes ; but 1 tuink that if we can keep the southern part as a colony or province, then the Lidian may still be preserved. 4405. Why would he disappear; is it because a morr onergetic, a more civilized, and in fact, a more intellectual man would come in competition with lum r — Because of the baits which would be held out ; there would then be an abundance of spirituous liquor brought in. 4406. But spirituous liquor affects the health of the white man as it does that of the brown man, does it not ? — But he falls more readily bev "th the temptation. 4407. That is to say, he is less civiHzed: — Yes. 4408. The more civilized mau conquers the less civilized man? — He does. 4401). Do you think it advisable to maintain the less civilized man in a com- i"uiiify which will liold the more civilized man? — I should be very sorry to forfeit the Indians in the territory 4410. That is not my question ; the question is, do you think it would be advisable ">ecp the territory ■ such a condition as should maintain the exis- tence n'' a u\ss civilized popuh Uon, when it would really maintain a more eirilizi-d ) .\;a'n» .on r — If I tlioug; i that the Indiuns were to be forfeited, 1 would rather keep back the more civilized. 4411. That i.-- to say, you would prevent the colonization by the more civilized man, to maintain the existence of the lets civilized man? — I think 0.2JI -Sess. 2. H H 3 each Right Itc*. Davul Anderson, D. n. 4 June i8j7. !;;=: ^^«l> ' vll ^^^^: 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Right RtY. David Andtnt*, D.B. 4 Jum 1857. V -r ■ I ipflfil ■Jif^! ■W|i: i-.iliillMi .1,:, each might have hiu poaition in the country, the civilized in the south, and the Indian further north. 441^. Does not it come to the condusinn to which I have cndeavo«red to draw you ?— 1 should bt sorry to allow it, oa regawls the Indian. 4413- Though your sympathies may go thus, dous not the reasooing lead you to the conclusion to which 1 wish to bring you ?— I hope the experiment aiay yet save the Indian. 4414- Chairman.] Do you not think that the true policy would be to estabtisk just and equitable laws, as between the brown and the white man, and to leave the nst to take its course ?— My own feeling would be in favour of a wttlement, a colony, or a province in the southern part of the territory, stretching from Lake Superior to the Uocky Mountains. 44 '.ji- Not oski'. .lA'ther a man was brown or white, provided he obeyed the laws and hchun ia, .'! ^~1 think so, and I think the Indian might still be saved. 441 f>. From wimt you have seen of the half-breed race at the Red River, do you fle'pair of their being useful and prospen.us membera of a civilisei: community, under proper laws?- I do not despair in the smallest degree of them. 44 ' 7- Are j ou aware of the circumstances under which the Indians within the province of Canada are at tht ' moment ? — I know of one spot on l-«ke Huron where they are. 441 «• Is it not the case that some of the tribes have landed property to a consideral)le extent, and e^ en fundcil property ?— I think that is more the case among the Clierokees in America. 441 9. Mr. linebucli.'] Still I think you have expressed an opinion, that if there were fne coh)nization the white man would overrun the brown man ? — Yes, if it were free over the whole countrj'. 4420. Therefore, if there were equal laws for the brown man and the white man, the brown man would disappear ? -Ye*, unless it were controlled in some way. 442 1 . Mr. Christy.] With regard to this question, I think I asked you your opiiiioi generally of the intelligence of the people who are resident in that colony of the Hed River. May I specifirrally ask you what your opinion is with regard to the intelligence and thrifliness uf the half-caste population at the Red River!' — It is not equal to that of the European, but still I think thr. it is a matter of growth, and that there is i j reason to despair regarding them. 4422. Are there not many very intellectual persons among the half- caste population at the Red River- — Very; some have been in my owu service who have bef a very intelligent, and some have advanced in different ways in life. 4423. Chairmiin] Are Ihere many who are clergymen of the Church of England r — Yes, there is the one whom I called a country-born clergyman, though not a native Indian clergyman.' 4424. But has he Indian l>lood iu his veins? — He has. 442.5. Mr. t hriaiy.] There are lany of them possessing property ? — Yes; all have their farms, and some have made a large amount of property. 44'j6. Chairman.] Have you heard of half-eastes in Canada who have held commissions in H(r Majesty's .■service? — I think so. 4427. Mr. Chritty.] Are there not numerous instances of alliances formed between the half-castes and the pure Europeans? — Very many 4428. They are cimstantly going on ?— Constantly. 44 jy. And alliances amon-^st t) )se persons who are in the better class of society there ? — Continually 4430. Viscount Godcric iii I t )' a settlement being carried out in thnt direction. 4433. You believe chat some obstruction of that kind was foiirid by the Rev. Mr. Corbett in that place ?— Yes. 4434. Mr. (Tiu^'an.] Will you expir a little further to what you referred when you said that the expenses of thi .mpany would l>e increased if the set- tlemem were established ? — The exjiensi -t of the Red River are already great by the maintenance of constables, a local force, and so on. 443.5- ^Vhat may be the anu)unt of that local force? — It is not a large amount; perliapH 12 constables. 443(). Mr. Hoehuck.^ How are they paid?— They are paid l)y the Council a*- Red River. 4457. Then if the population increased, would not the means of payment increase ? — We have no local taxes except on the imported goods. 4438. Would not the means of payment increase if population increased? — I think so. 44.39. Therefore the increase of population would not diminish the power of naaintaining the goveniment ': — No, I think not, if viewed on a large scale. 4440. Tlierefon' the increase of popidation wouhl, in fact, go to the mainte- nance of the government r — I oidy stated the reason of the Comiwny. 4441. Mr. Grogan.] Is it within your Lordship's knowleavia Andtrioit, 4 June 18(7. letter class of Joseph Maynard, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 4442. Chairman.] YOU are the Solicitor to the Hudson's 13ay Company, I Joitph Maynard, ff'f- believe? — I am. 4443. The Committee arc desirous of having a copy of the licence to trade which the Company have received from the Government, over the country to the westward of Rupert's Land ; can you put that in : — I can. I do not know whether you are aware that this is abready printed ; it is one of the Parliamentary Pnpers ; T can refer you to it. There have been two licences. The licence of 1821, whuli was the first, is in page 21 of a Return in August 1842 ; the other licence which is of May 1838, is in page 9 of the same Return. 4444. Have all the papers relating to that transaction been published, or are there any others in the ])08se8sion of the Hudson's Bay ("ompany which would throw iiglit upon it ? — I think they have all been published. The foundation of them, of ourse, was the Act of 1 & 2 '^"o. 4. 444,5. \re there any papers in existence relating to the tenure by which the Hudson's Bay i ompany now hold Vancouver's Island which are not already before the public r — I think not ; I think that the corrispondence previous to that grant being made is printed. The grant itself of Vancouver's Island is in page l"? of a Return ordered to be printed on the 7th of March 1849. 4446. Mr. Rotbnck.'] U'hen was the grant made ? — The grunf; is dated the 13th of January 1849. It was prepared iu 1848, and the correspc nd\^nce upon the subject was in 1 848. I can, I believe, furnish separate copies ; but the ' documents being printed, are more conveniently referred to, prob.'bly, in that shape. 4447. Viscount Godevich."] I think you were present during the examination of the Bishop of Rupert's Land ? — I was. 4448. Can you explain the point as to how far the Hudson's Bay Company are bound to pay 300/. a year to the bishop, or how far they have tiie power to withdraw it if they please ? — The Hudson's Bay Company have come under a binding obligation to make that payment to the bishop of Rupert's Land. 1 did not happen personally to be engaged in the transaction, but I have informed myself of the nature of it ; and at the time when the Court of Chancery made the Order, by which the fund arising out of the bequest which has been alluded to was placed in the names of trustees, the Governor and Deputy Governor of 0.24 — Sess. 2. H H 4 the E«q. :A M MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE SELECT CC Jnttpk UaynanI, 4 Junr 1857. n m. B the Hudson's Hay Company bein^ two of IHohr truHtPcn, it wnn Hubject ton hind- inf< ens;iigrm(>nt on the part of the Coin[)nny to make an annual payment of 'MM I. a year. 4440. Mr. (Iro'inH.'] It in n jiidicial decree, in fnet ? — No. I i-un hardly say that. The judical decrc«' m the transfer of the fund, with that t (inuilion. You can hardly soy that there was a power on the part of the < istrt '1/ make a decree uf that kind ; but the (Jompany conHunted to coming u.>.'a r 'tiat oblifca- tion, \\\wn the money ariHin^ from the legacy bein^r applied to llic support of the bishopric. 44,'",o. Have you a copy Oi the decree, and the condition attached to it? — I have not one here, but 1 can obtain one. Marl is, 9' die Junii, 1857. ^1 A. It- Hoche, Esq, y June 1857. Ill MEMBERS PRK8BNT. Mr. BInckbum. Mr. Christy. Mr. Edward Fllice. Mr. Charles Fitzwl liam. ViscDunt Goderc li Mr. Grogan. Mr. Kinnairtl, Mr. Liibnuchere Mr. MatheHon. Viscount Siindon. Lord Stanley. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCIIERR in the Chair. Alfred Robert Roche, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 44.') 1 . Chairman.} YOU are a Canadian, I believe ? — I am an Englishman, but I have been in Canada for the last 1 years. 4452. In what part of Canada have you resided r— I have resided in Quebec, in Montreal, in Kingston, and in Toronto. I have been five years in Quebec, and about five years in Montreal. 44,5.3. Are you in any profession ? — I am attached to the provincial secre- tary's department. 44,54. In short, you are in office in a public department ? — Yes. 4455. What situation do you hold in that department ? — I am fourth clerk. 4456. Have you visited England in any official capacity r — If you will allow me, I will hand in my instructions from the Government. 44,57- ^il' you have the kindness to read them ? — " Secretary's Office, Toronto, 7th March 1 857. — Sir, I have the honour, by command of his Excel- lency the Gi)vernor-general, to fnstruct you to proceed without delay to London, and when there to place yourself at once in communication with, and at the disposal of the Hon. Mr. Draper, in connexion with his mission respecting the Hudson's Bay territory. It will be your business to render such assistance to Mr. Draj)er in the important mission with which he is charged, as from your researches on the subject, or from other causes, you may be able to afford. You will deliver to Mr. Draper tlie accompanying copies of the report of the Commissioner of Crown Lands on ihe subject of the Company's claim to tiie territory in question. — I have, &<3. T. Lee Terrill, Secretary." 44,58. In your official capacity, or personally, has your attention been espe- cially directed to the subjects which are now the matter of inquiry before this Committee? — For the last 10 months I have been corresponding with various jjeiricn:; who have a knowledge of the territory, under the direction of Mr. Vancouglinet, the President of the Executive Council, and in consequence I have obtained some knowledge of the territory. 4459. Are there any statements with regard to any of the questions which have been brought before this Committee which you are desirous of making? — I have drawn up some memoranda upon the territory, obtained from various sources. -h6o. Have you yourself ever travelled over the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company / — No ; I have never been there. I have been in communica- tion SELECT COMMITTEE ON TIIK lirOSON'S HAY COMPANY. 1149 Hon with ft gri'ut many nn-n who hnve brrn there, and I have Home Htutements from tlu'm ; for inHtuncr, then- in Mr. (ilachiiuu, who haw been in tlie service of the Company for 11 great many yearu. I have a Htntenient from him here. 44»ii. Loril Stanity.] Doe-, your office place you in any official connexicn with the nifnirH of the Hudson's Hay Company ? — No, it iIock not ; at least my present appointment doeH. I have been «'mploye(t Hpecially upon these matters. 446a. Mr. Ciroyan.] Vou were Bpecially deputed to make inquiries into this queftion ? — Yes. 44();}. And the information which you state you hare in those papers is the result of those inquiries r— Yes. 44()4. Chairman.] What is the first point on which you are desirous of milking any statement to the Committee? — I believe the territory to be much more valuable than it has been represj'nted ; in minerals, for instance. I have I'olleeted from the journals of all the expeditions that have been throu- Is there not a report of that description which is upon the boundary between the Hudson's Hay Company's ten'itory and Canada? — There is a rejjort u]K)n that subject, but that is quite distinct ; that has nothinj; to do with it. He states here that pubUe attention has been much attracted to the !5askatolie\van country, and lie says, "We may ere long have to take action for its development." 4^84. .Mr. lirot/aii.] Will you ^ive the substance of the official ))art of the document without any comments whatei'ev : — He says that public attention has been attracted to the Saskatchewan, and in that direction ; and that in conse- quence of that he thinks that before long the Government may have occasion to take action with regard to it. He also speaks of all the lands in the Western Peninsular of Canada having been disposed of, and that he finds mauv peoj)h' in Canada prefer going to the prairies of the Western States to going throu^di the laOour of cleiu-ing the forest : he therefore thinks that the prairies of the Saskatchewan, the Red River, and the Assiniboine, will offer greater inducements for settlement th.in the lands which remain in (Canada. 448.5. Mr. Edward EUke.\ What do you call the Western Peninsula of Canada/ — Tlu» jjcninsula surrounded by the Lakes Ontario, Erie, and Huron. 4486. C/itiirnian.] You state that you beUeve the general public opinitm in Canada to be in favour of taking in the whole of the territory now governed by the Hudson's May Company, as far as the Pacific ; taive Vancouver's Island, for instance ; do yon believe that it is the feeling of the i)eoi)le of Canada that it would be di'sirable to annex \'ancouver's Island to Canada, and govern it as a part of the colony r — 1 do not think that that is very important ; they certainly speak of the territory as far as the Pacific. 44S7. Take the territory innnediately opposite Vancouver's Island, for instance, which is sujujosed to be very capaljle of cultivation and settlement ; do you beUeve that it would be practicable, or desirable, that at the distance at which that territory is from Canada, it should be i)art of the province of Canada, and be gtnerned by Canada?— I think it is not at all important whether it should be attached to Canada or not, as far as Canada is coiu-erncd, so that it should be developed in some way ; so that it should be formed into a colony. 4488. Am 1 to understand you. that you think the feeling in Canada is in favour of the progressive settlement of all that part of British North America which is fit for settlement, as being of great iiiportance to Canada, but not the actual annexation of the whole of that territory to Canada as a colony -—1 do not think that it is important that it shoidd be all annexed to Canada, so that it is settled in Some way ; so that its resources should be turned to account. 4481). Sujiposing there was a considerable settlement on the shores of the Pacific, do you not think that It would be inipoasiljle to give the inhabitaiits a particijmtion in the free institutions which are now hapi)ily enjoyed by Canada. on account of the geographical difficulty of their j-ending niend)ers to the Provincial Parliament? — That would be a difficulty certainly. 44mo. Would it not bcm impossibility .' — Unless we had the Pacific Railway which is contemplated. 4491. Lanl Stuji/e I/. \ W hat 1 sujjpose you want is power for emigration to extend itself westward ": — Yes, that is one great oljjcvt. 4.j()2. .\iid for the i)resent you are not nnieh coneeriied with anything that lies westward of the Rocky Mountains r* -No, 1 do not think we are ; at Uast 1 do not myself think that it is of great iuiportanee, although in the Minute of Council, I think, under which Chief Justvjc Drajter was appointed, it was stated that the peojjle of Canada considen-d that their authority should go to the shon»s of the Pacific. 44(13. Do you mean by that that they considered that they had a right to its extension so lar, or that they considered that right as one of practienl importance? — lliat they had a right. 1 he Order in Council, I think, states 60 ; that the people in Canada consider that they have a right to the terri- tory as far as th«' Pacific. For instance, that territory was discovered by Sir Alexander Mackenzie; he was the first man who penetrated there, and he was a Canadian. 4494. C/iuiniKin.^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 251 ^acitic Haihvav 44()4. C/tairmau.] Those are legal questions - — Yes ; I suppose thev VTould ^. R. Rocht, £«q. be. " ■ 440.';. Mr. (h-o^aii.'] You \vt .speaking about i\\v. Canadians thinking that 9 June 1857. they had a right as far as the Pacihc ; tlo you understand their opinion to be that they possess the rights of the old French Canadians, who had the right to travel and trade through tliat country ■ — Yes. 4496. Is that the sense in whicli you iiiean that they hud the right ? — Ye: ; that is the sense in which it is understood in Canada. 4407. When you speak of the desire of the Canadians to see that country settled and develojied, do you understand it to be with a view to defining the l)oundary between the United States and that part of America?— Partly, I think. 4408. What is the other object ?— That a great many of the available lands are taken up in Cani.:iii ; most of the land? now for disposal are far back ; they are up the Ottawa. 44(J9. Then it is with a view of colonisation and of settling the country ? — Yes. ' 4i0o. How could that be done if there were no roads of easy access to it ? — Tliey would make roads. 450 1 . Lord Staiiln/.'] Do you speak of the lands up the Ottawa Valley being occupied to a considerable extent r — To some extent. 450J. Do you know how far the settlement has actually proceeded up that valh y, beginning from By Town and going westward • — I suppose 100 miles up ; there are about 100 miles of farms here and there. 4503. Do you mean that the greater part of the land is occupied r -The whole of it is not taken up ; there are farms here and there ; but then that land is very difficult to clear ; the trees are very large there. 4504. Is it not a fa'jt that only a few years figo there were merely a fi w scattered settlements, and very small settlements, here and there, over all that vast exteit of country which lies between By Town on the Ottawa and Lake Huron : — Yes, 1 believe so ; but settlement there has been advancing verv rapidly since that. 4.5»'.T. Mr. Chark's FitzwiUiam.' What is tl;e r.ite at which settlement advances; what uumber of miles does settlemei.t advance in a year .' — It is very difficult to answer that exactly by miles. 45(i(i. Mr. Grogan.] Did I rightly understand you to say that the Canadians were desirous of h.aving the opportunity of :naking settlements along this part of the Hudson's Bay territory, in consequence of the people 1, referring to go there rather than to settle in the Ottawa district- — Yes; Mr. Cauchon nives that in his report ; he says that they can cultivate the prairies much more easily than they can the forest land. 4.")07. Is it found ])ractically by the Government of Canada that the ])eOj:le prefer trying the praii ies to undertaking the land where tlie large trees grow 'r — Yes. I believe so. 4.")0^. Mscount Godericfi.] You refer to the United States territory? — They prefer going there now ; but he wishes to direct them to the Sakatchewau instead of sending them to the United State : he wishes ru prevent such persons in future trom being lost to the province. 4.')0o. Mr. ('/irisli/.\ Wlien yuu speak of Canada being inimical to the Hud- sons Bay Company, what is the reason why they are so, do you suppose ; I aui speaking, not jis a question of territory, but as a question of the population, the general feeling; what is their objection to the Company r — They think that they opjiose settlement ; that they oppose the develo(>ment of the resources of the country ; and they look upon them as a foreign body monopolising an iiuniensc territory, keeping it in a state of nature, when it has uiuny resources \\hich might be developed. 41 10. Do you think that the people generally in Canada desire to see the C'umpiiny abolished ? — I do. 4ji I. C/iaiima)i.] Would they wish to see the trade with the Indians thrown optu to everybody without the least reserve? — 1 think the peoi)le generally would. 4,51 J. Have you at all eonsidere at present. 0.24- -Sess. 2. II 2 4513. Have I-- 952 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. R. Roche, Etq. 9 June 1857. I*S.!M: rx : m 4513. Have you made yourself at nil acquainted with the history of that country during tlie time when there was a system of competition carried on for the fur trade r — Yes. 4,5 1 4. There was a great deal of confusion in the country in consequence of spirits being very extensively introduced, I believe, by those parties competing against one another for the furs ? — Yet, that was the case ; but then spirits are still introduced, I understand ; that is the system even now in some portions of the territory. 4515- What do you im.i^ne would be the effect of an unlimited introduction of spirits ? — I think the effect would be very bad, certainly. 4,516. How would you propose to guard asjainst that in the event of an un- limited competition in trade? — I would proliibit the introduction of spirits altogether ; I would not even allow white persons to use spirits in the terri jrv. 4 z; 1 7. It is dirticult enough. I believe, to enforce that law in densely-peo 'ed countries ; how could you possibly enforce a temperance law of that descript, )a through the immense territories which are now occupied by the Hudson's Bav Company, with such a fi-ontier as they have "- — It would certainly be difficult. I understand that the Americans do not use spirits now in their Indian tnitie . 4518. Do you know the recent history of the relations between the Indians ;md the white population in the American territory ? — Yes, I have made inquiries into it. 4.') 1 9. Are you aware that there have been scenes of the most dreadful de- scription in the way of mutual bloodshed and destruction between the whites and the Indians ? — In the Oregon territory ; but I do not think that those scenes have taken place towards the east, not on this side of the Rocky Moun- tains, I think, not recently. I sometimes receive newspapers from Minnesota, and 1 do not see any mention made there of wars among the Indians. 45 .'0. I fancy thsit in Minnesota the white men are in great force, and the Indians are comparatively impotent? — No; they say that the Ciiippewas there are numerous, and that they are increasing in number. 4S2I . Lord Stanley.] You spoke of the restrictions upon the sale of s))irits to Indians under the laws of the Company ; would it be possible, in your juclj^ment, under that Company, or under any government, to enforce laws of that sort if a white population became numerous there ? — 1 think it would be difficult. 4')2 J. In short, the continuance of restrictive laws .sf that kind depends uj)on the country remaining comparatively unsettled l)y a white population ? — I think it depends a great deal upon tiie people themselves. 4.'") J3. Therefore if the Indian population is to be preserved from temptations of that kind, it can only he done by keeping the white population comparatively limited; that is to say, by rendering the territory useless for purposes of colonisation ? — I find tliat there are many tribes in the United .States which are increasing now, wiiich are in contact with white persons : Bancroft mentions several ; he mentions the Chj-rokees, the Choktaws, the Creeks, and the \Vinnil)agoes. 4.V-4- Mr Charles FilzwUliam.] You have been asked iibout what effect liquor has upon the Indians ; can you give the Committee any idea what effect has been produced by liquor among the Indians in Canada '( — It has been very injurious to them. 4,52.5. Is liquor e.\terisively used .among them r — 1 am not aware that it is at present. I am told that the Indians on tlie Grand River, who are settled there as farmers, are increasing in number, and as a proof that they are doing well, I may instance that they gave 100/. sterling to the Patriotic Fund. 4','2{). \Vhere is the Grand River? — It is in Upper Canada; it runs into Lake Erie. 4.527. Mr. (Irogrml^ An' the Indians in Canada, in point of fiu^t, iiiereasing or deereasin.g in mnnber?-Iam told that they are increasing there, and at the Credit ; that is near Toronto, where they are settled ; they have funded property. 4.528. Do you speak of your own knowledge as to their state of comfort and eluthing?— I speak from impiiries which I made iit the Indian Depaitment. 4.529. What is theresidt of your information ? — They say tliat tiiey arc rather increasing in intelligence, in wealth, and even in number. 4530. That Hi SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. '53 ins into Lake 4530. That they are becoming settled agriculturists? — Yes. 4531. I need not iisk you whether there is any limitation to intercourse between them and the white people ? — There is no limitation. 4532. There is no restriction upon the introduction of any quantity of spirits which the white people think right to send in tliere r — Tliere is a law in Canada, certainly, against selling liquor to the Indians. 4.533. Have you heard of any people being punished for infractions of that law r — No, I have not. 4534. Is it supposed in tiie country generally that that law is observed or is violated ? — I have not heard of any instances of its being violated, although I dare say it is violated in some instances ; of course it must be. 4').i!). Do you infer then that if the Canadians were allowed to colonise and make settlements along this portion of the Hudson's Bay territories, the same rule would prevail in the communication between the white people and the Indians as prevails between the white people and the Indians in Canada ; is that your im])ression ? — Yes, that is my impression. 453(). Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Does the fur trade exist in Canada ? — Yes, to a certain extent ; the Hudson's Bay Company have posts in Canada. 4;',37. With respect to those Indians of whom you were speaking just now, who are in the habit of being in the society of white men in Canada, is any fur trade carried on by them, or with them ? — None. 4538. Therefore there is no occasion for any trade in spirits ?— No ; but they are so well off that they could purchase any (quantity of spirits. 4531). Do you not look upon the Indians near Montreal, for instance, as a very demoralised race ? — 1 believe there they have not done so well as they have at the Grand lUver, or at the Credit, although I have not been among them. 4540. You 'just now said that you would prevent the sale, or the consumption of spirits altogether, if the territory was added to Canada, and Canada had the rule over it ; what is 3'our reason for saying so ; why would you put an end to it ? — For the sake of the Indians. 4541. Why for the sake of the Indians; do you think that it would have a deteriorating influence upon the Indians ? — Certainly ; at least I think that spirits would liave that effect if they could procure them. 4542. Mr. C/iristy.^ The Chairman asked you with reference to wars amongst the white and red races in the territory of the United States ; are you aware of wars amongst the Indians themselves in the ttrritory of the United .States — No, I am not. 4,543. Have you heard of any wars in the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company amongst the Indians? — Yes. In 184!) Lieutenant Hooper, who wintered at Bear Lake, came round from Point Barrow ; he relates a case of a number of Esciuimaux being killed by a party of Loucheux Indians, led on l)y a white man in the Hudson'sBay Company's employment ; it occurred on the Mackenzie. 4544. Vou have stated a good deal of what you gathered from information which is published. Within your own knowledge, or in the course of your own rpscarehes under the (Canadian Government, have you discovered any instances in wliieh the Indians have been oppressed at all ir, 'he Hudson's Bay ( onqjanv - — I have seei. 'iierely statemenls of some of tiitir officers in their published works. 1 have a paper which I have received from .Mr. Vancougtniet, the President of the Counciil in C^anada, from Red River direct, containinii statistics of the eolonv, drawn np in March last, by one ' f the inhabitants there. 4,545. Mr. Gi(i(iitii.\ How did that pajjcr come into your puss'ssion ? It was sent to me direct l)y .\lr. Vancoughnet, the President of the E.xeeutive Council ; 1 su])])ose it is for >Ir. Draper. 454(1. ('/i(iinn(.ii.] What is the paper? — It is Statistics of tl»c Red River Colony, drawn up l)y a x\lr. (iunn there. I spoke to the Bisliop of Rupert s Land about Mr. (iunn, aiid he says that he is a very respectabh tnan. 4,'i47. .Mr. Edivitnl Ellice. \ Just let me see that paper. 7%t ^/imr xiux handed to the lloiiuurabic Member.) This is a letter to .Mr. Vaneoughiict, dated in Mar'^h : from whom ? — Irom Mr. Gunn. A. R, Roche, Esq. g June 1857. 0.24— Ses8. 2. [The Witness was dinicted to withdrftw. 254 MINMTES OF EVIDENCR TAKEN BFJORE THE i ' n S'llJI 'I'H The Witness was ngain called in. A.R.Roehe, Esq. 4.')48. Chair man] The Committee wish that paper to be put in ? {The Witiim delii'intl in the same.) — I have a copy of n petition frnn tiie Ked Hiver, which 9 June 18,57. has hcen presented to the Parliament in Canada. 4,',40. Mr. Christy.] What is the nature of ihe petition which you have from the Ked Kiver r — It is >tatini5 certain srrievances, and askimr to be annexed to the Canadian territory. 4550. 1 should rather have asked you to whom it is addressed r — It is addressed to the Parliament of Canada; one ])etition to the Upper House, and one to the Lower House, in the usual form. 45,-) 1. \Vhnt is the date of it .' — In Ajjril of this year. 4.= .52. By whom is it signed .' -I iiave not the signatures here ; but it is signed ' by, ! believe, about 600. 455.>- Persons resident at Red Kiver ? — Persons resident at lied River. 4,5,54. Chainnan.] AU males ■ — Yes. 45.5,-,. Mr. Christy.] Just describe to the Committee what the nature of the petition isr — It states certain grievances; it gives a history of the settlement. The petitioners say that they have invested large sums of money in payment for land to the Hudson's Bay Company, and that they cannot get any deeds for the same ; that is one complaint. They say that the C ompany's agents have endea- voured to force deeds ui)on them to which they object, wiiich would subject them to become slaves to that l)ody. Then tliey believe the chartei- of the Comj)any not to be legal, and so forth. They say that on their anmud journeys into Minnesota they have been jjursued like felons by armed constables ; that they have l)een searched, and their property taken from them and contiscated. 4.5,5(). Do they sj)uak generally with regard to their property, or describe what particular property has been taken from them .' — " They searched our property, even by breaking oi)en our trunks, and all furs found were contiscated." Flu's they sjicak of. Then they complain that "the valuable commercial productions of the country are exported for the exclusive benefit of a company of trader?, who are strangers to ourselves and to our country." They also complain of being obliged to imjjort everything through the Company, and then thty speak of the rule of the Company paralysing the whole of their energies, and therefore they wisii to be attached to Canada. They say that they ha\ e appealed to the Imjjerial authorities without effect, and therefore they petition the Parliament of C'anad:i. 4.-, ,5 7. Do they give any date at which they appealed to the Imperial Legi.-l,i- ture r — No, they do not. They say, " AVe have represented our grievances to the In)i)erial Government." 4.5ii''- Viscount Godirich.] Do you know whether any notice has been tai.eu. or whether any proceedings liave i)een taken with regard to that petition by the Colonial Legishiture 'r — It has only just been presented there. There hits been a conunittee appointed there to inquire into the whole matter. That committee is now sitting. 4;''.59- To inquire into the idlegations of that petition .' — No, not into the allegations of that petition. It is a committee somewhat similar to this, to inouire uito the rights of Canada to the territory, and the rights of the Company iiufler their charter. In fact, the incjuiry is a vrry wide one there ; much wider thri. this. 4.560. Chairman.] When is that committee Ukely to report:— Very !?liortly, because the Legislature is not likely to sit long. The committee was appointed on the motion of Mr. Terrill, the provincial secretary. 4.561. Mr. Edwura Kl'.ia'.] Is that a committee appointed to irupiire intu tiie validity of the Company's charter ■ — Yes ; that is one of their objects. This petition was |)resented to the Upper House by Mr. Vancoughnct, and in the Lower House it was presented by Mr. Macbeth, a native of the Red liiver Settlement. 45(ij. Mr. Chri.ity.] Does that ])etition say that the parties signing it peti- tioned the Crown or the Imperial Legislature ; wliat are the words in which it exprt sses itself.-- It says, "We iiave represented our grievance's to the Imperial (iovernment ;"' they do not make the distuiction. 4V'J- 1>" vo\i know whether the [iractice has been to transmit anv grievance to SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, .)5 9 June iSj7. to the Crown, to the Government of this country, and not to the Inii)t'rial .4. B. Roche, E«q. Lesrislaturi' : — Do you nit-an from Cnnada, or from the Red River r 4504. From the Red River ; not from C'anada ?— Yes, I think they appealed to the Colonial Office in 1849. 45(1.5. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Do yon know under what authority the Colonial Legisliiture assume the' power of inqinrinij; into charter.s granted hy the Impe- rial (iovernmeiit, in territories not belonsing to Canada ? — I do not know that it is :niy authority which they assume ; they inquire into it with the object of ascektaining whether this charter does conflict \v ith any rights which they may have. t it is signed Captain David Herd, called in ; and Examined. 4,5(it3. Chairman.] I be'.ieve you have, as the captain of a merchant ship, Captain D. Herd. l)('en connected with tlie Hudson's Ba}' Company? — I have. ■ 4j('>7. How long have you been so connected r — For the last 23 years. 4508. What has been the nature of that connexion ? — I was an officer of one of tlu'ir ships for three years ; and I think I have commanded one of them now 18 or IS) years. 4.5t)q. What has been the nature of the trade conducted by those ships ? — I merely take the ship bacikwards and forwards ; they pr.t on lioard whatever they have to put on board, and 1 take it. 4,570. To Hudson's Bay? — To Hudson's Bay ; York Fort. 4571. Mr. Edward Ellici.] What are the capabilities of the Hudson's Bay, with rejiard to whaling? — I have been going there for the last 22 years, and have never seen a whale but omi- ; that was last year ; 1 saw one whale ; I h;ive seen what are commonly called whales, but they are porpoises. 4.572. Assuming that there were whales there, i.-. the state of the sea, with regard to ice, such that whaling could be carried on in it r — N.», I do not believe that it could ; I do not believe that whales will ever go amongst ice myself. 4573- I'or how many months in a year is that bay closed to shipping by ice r —I should think it is o|)en only fiom six weeks to two months in the year. 4.',74. .And during the rest of the year it is not navigable?— It is not navi- gable. We generally arrive there about the lOth or ISth of August, and get away again about the 15th or 20th of September. 4.575. And if you do not get away as soon as that, you are Hable to be kept tlu'iT the whole winter r- Yes. 1 have known 13, 14, 15, IG, and even 20 degrees of frost when we have been coming away on tlie 25th of September. 4.576. And you are often delayed on your passage out by the ice in the Straits, arf you not ? -Sometimes wc go through the Straits in four days, and at other times we are five weeks. 4.577. That is in tlic beginning of August ? — Yes. 4,57s. In fact, you do not believe, first of all, that there are fish, and in the next place, if there were fish, that it wouh! be possible to catch them ?— I believe that ti( he the case. 4579 Mr. C/iriatij.] Have you ever seen seals on your passage thrcjugh the Straits '.- -Very few indeed ; I have seen seals. 45X0. Chairman.] Are there no ti-heries of any value in those seas? — \one that I have ever seen. 45' I- Mr. Chridjj.] Do you ever trade with the Es({uimaux ? — Ves, we stunelimes tr.ide with them ; perliapL-, upon an avera.ge, once in every fourth year or so. 4582. W hat do you get from the Esquimaux ? — We get some walrus tusks, ami jicrhaps a horn or two of the narwal ; those are tlie only tilings that we get ; we \ery rarely get any skins. 4,5X3. Do you get any seal skins ? — We do get seal skins sometimes ; very iVw. 45X4. What number do you get ? -Th" most that I have ever got did amount to more than eight or nine alt igether. 4585, Have the Hudson's Bay (ojupany, to your knowledge, ever sent out any steam vessel ? — Never since 1 have been connected with the service; in 0.J4 — Sess. 2. I I 4 fei't, but not 256 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IWKEN HEFOllE THE :!f!H';i)'!^-^ Captain D. Herd. fact, if ray opinion were asked, I do not tliink that a Mteamor would do at all amongst ice to force a passage. 9 June 1857. 45^(1. Are you aware that in the recent Arctic Mxp'f'diiions steam . sssels were used for navigation, and that their superiority was tstablished in seas encum- bered by ice ? — I am aware that steam ships have gone out connected witli Sir John Franklin's expedition • but I am not at all aware how tiiey did amongst the ice : I have merely commanded a sailing ship ; I know nothing at all about a steamer. If I were asked for my experience, I sliould prefer a sailing ship, amongst ice, to a steamer. 4,587. You say that you know nothing about a steamer r— I know nothing about a steamer. 4588. But you have given an opinion that a steamer is not suited for navi- gating those seas encumbered by ice ■ — Not to force a passage through ice. 4589. You are not aware of what took place in the Arctic Expedition with steamers :— No, I am not. 4590. Mr. Edward Ellire.] .Are not your own ships obliged to be doubled, fortified r — They are fortified witii ice chof;ks forward. 45yi. That means doubling and trebling the thickness of the bow? — Yes; the ice chocks are brought out flush witli the stem, 4592. Mr. Christj/.] Do not you think that if you were provided with a screw steamer it would make, at all events, the passage in a much quicker time ?— It would entirely depend upon the state of the Straits. Sometimes we are six weeks going through the Straits, and cannot see so much open water as to turn a boat round ; in othei- years we go througli and see comparative! v little ice; but upon the average we have sailed something like 800 to 1,000 miles through ice, all the years that 1 have been in the service. 4593- Am I to undinstaml that you think there would he. no facility if the •Company were to employ ste.iniers .' — I could not offer an opinion about it. 4594. Mr. Ed^vard Ellice.'] Steamers would have to go through the same ice that a saihng ship has r — Yes. 459.') • Mr. Christy.] Do not you think that yuu would be enabled to leave London later tlian you now do, and to reach York Factory sufficiently early with a steam vessel to be able to make the voyage there and back figain during the open season ? — I do not think it. 1 did not get out of the ice in 1854 until the 4th of September, and then we were close down to York. 4596. Mr. Edward Ellke.] You iiad ice ail through August ? — Yes ; we just got into the outer roads and the ice was outside of us. 4,')97. Mr. Christi/.] What do you consider the actual distfince traversed from London to Hudson's Bay ?— We calculate it to be about 3,500 miles. 4598. Do you consider that it is further than to Montreal ? — Yes, 1 should say so ; and it is a more intricate navigation altogether. The Straits and the ice cause a detention. 4,599. What is the value of your average cargo? — I cannot say. I only command thu ship. I take in what they give me, and I bring it home here. I do not und\-2. Are those goods consigned wiioUy to the Company? — Tliey are entirely consigned to them, and they are all i)acke(l, and put on board our ship. 4613. Do you bring any articles for private individuals ?— Yes, in the way of presents ; there are very often presents ; there may be present;} of furs. 4()!4. Bui; you do not know tliat you bring any cargo for private individuals? —No consignment of cargo ; it is all consigned to the Governor and Company of the Hudson's Bay. 4615. iSfr. Kinnuird.'] Are you forbidden to carry a cargo for anybody else ? — No, I never received tiny orders at all on the subject. 46 1 C. To accommodate anybodv, if there was room in your ship, you would give facilities for anything being shipped at York, and would bring it home ? — If they brought nie an order from the officer at \ork to receive it on board, I would take it in. 4617. Viscount Goilerkh.] 'ihen it would require such an order as that ; you would not take it without? — I catmot say'; there bus never been such a thing ; we have taken a cargo on !)oard of presents. 4618. Mr. Christy.] You speak of presents; that I can quite understand; but 1 understand yiu to say, that you are not aware that '^ ju bring any cargo, if 1 may use such a tf-rm, for merchan<;s, or for any persons in that country whose goods they are, exclusive of the Company, and who themselves possess the value of the gnodii ; you do not know that .' — I do not know it. 461;). Is your home cargo more bulky than j^our outward cargo ? — No ; the home cargo is not ne^irly so bulky as the outward c^rgo, generally speaking. One year it may be rather more bulky than in others ; but it is not so bulky, generally sj)eaking, as the outward cargo. 46:0. What does your outward cargo generally consist of? — It is principally supplies for the country ; tea and sugar, and manufactured goods, cloths and blankets, and a geuera! cargo ; the common necessaries of life. 46^1 . Have you any knowledge of the value of that cargo ? — No, I have not. /\(vz'i. You have nothing to do with the insurance ? — I have nothing at all to do with it 4t) J3. Is your ship generally full (I am speaking now of an average of years) which (Times from 'i'ork Factory ? — No ; this ship which is now sent is seven years ■'■• She is, perhaps, what you would call full, but sailors would not call her full, j)erhaps, once out of those seven years. Of course it greatly depends upon how you stow a ship ; you can fill her as you like. 4(ij4. Did it evt. occur to you that a traffic might be hid in tallow, or any other produce of tiiat country, for instance, from the Red River, which you might bring home if your ship were not full ; heavy goods which you might use instead of tlie ballast which you have told us you are compelled to use ? — 1 have not given that point much consideration ; but I have always understood that tiieie was such a difliiulty in getting tallow from Red River, that it was not to be had ; tiiat they could not get enough to uuppiy themselves at Red River, let alone sending it away. 462,5. Then you have never had any applications, to your knowledge, which have been refused ? — Never. 4626. Do you understand my question r — I do. perfectly. 4627. Describe my question? — Supposing you to be a merchant at York, you have never applied to me ; no merchants ut York, except the Hudson's Bay Company's factors, ever put cargo on board the ship, or ever applied to me to put cargo on board the ship. 4(128. You have not heard that api)lirations have been made to bring home produce in the Company's shi))s which have b»en refused ? — No, 1 never have. 4629. Mr. Chat les FitzwiUiam.'] You mentioned that you brought home oil 0.24— Scss. 2. K K in 9 June 1857. 1:: ••r 258 MINUTES OF i:VIl;ENCE 1 UvlLN Bl.FORK THE !« H V\t: he c'oU part to I liiive CMptain D. Herd, in the ship ; in wliat (lunulities do you brinj^ it home r U never exceeds -20 ■ j)uiu'ht'()iis. i>Junct867' 4''io. Do you iinaj;ine that that is all the oil which "iMild possiblv be col- lected ill the Hudson's Hay r — That is all that 1 eolleeted upon the west side of the bay. 4(i.;i. Do you imagine that that i8 all the oil which couhl possibly leoted in the Hudson's Hayr — 1 cannot say. I only know about that whicli 1 hnvv l)een ^oing. I (nmnot say wliat there is on the east side, never been on the cast side. 4t).V.'. Do any other ships trade to the Hudson's Hay ! — No. 4(l3j. Any to .Moose Fori :— Une ship f^ocs down to Moose. 4034. Two ships then ^o to the Hudson's Bay r- Two ships go to the bay, and a (bartered slii]) occasionally, making; three. A(i,i'\. Is there in each ship, do you imagine, u quantity of oil brought honief ■I'l — I tliink there was some oil brought from Moose last year, but I cannot sjwak positively about it. 4()5<>. Have you ever been to Moose yourself: — No; but whet4ur it was caught at Moose or at Whale River, I cannot say. 4''J"- ^\ here is W hah Hiverr — That is upon the east side of the bay. 4638. Why is it called Whale River ? —They are white porpoises, in fact, but they arc commonly called whah'S in the country. 4ti3l). Do they abound ?-- No; I have seen very few of them all th( years that 1 have bet'u going there, not suttit ient to i)ay for an establishment, i believe. 4G40. Mr, Christ II. \ Are not jjorpoises, where tlu-y abound, very valuable for • ]} jmrposes of oil- — I cannot answer that question, 1 never had anything to do with them. / 4641 . Ami also for their skins?— I cannot sav. \ 4''4^- Viscount dodenr/i.] Did I rightly ui! i •e near the Dais. 4C71. Producing Mr. /. Mila. 73 Mr Kinnnird.] Do you do that on horseljuek r — No, in boats : we cross the Uiicky Moic i:>iiis • h"tween it and Mount Browvi. 40 /-,. From there where do you cross: from the bo: t «. iuiampment, where is the jjoint on the east side of the mountains at which you leave the; mountains • — It is two days' level walk on the headwaters of the Columbia before vou reach the mountain itself which you cross ; it is a go.xl day's work to get up to the top of the mountain, Hi\d very hard work too ; you sleep there ; the next morning you descend the mountain, and I think we were three days before we got out ot th«' mountain ridge altogether. 4(17(1. Mr. Kinnaird.'] Is there a sort of track ? — Yes, there is a simple track; an Indian track. 4(177. Mr. Ciitirlts Fitzwillutm.] When you have crossed to the east side of the mountains, will you describe what is the nature of that country? — Our route lay by Jaspi r's House, and down the Athabasca Uiver, which runs into Slave Lake ; the v bole of that country is a fl:it country, producing nothino; but pine and spru -e, and timbers of that description ; tlie country apj)ears to be swampy. 4()78. Does it produce grass: — Tliereis some grass. 4679. It is not what you would call a grass country r — No, by no means; it produces more of the nmss species altogether. 4(1^0. From Jasper's House, what route did you take? — I went down the Athabasca Kiver to Fort Assineboine ; from that jdace J went on horseback, and crossed over to Kdnionton, on the yaskatchewan Uiver, and went down through the Saskatchewan Valley to I^ake W^innipeg, Norway House. 4()8i. Will you describe the country from Kdnionton, down the north branch of the Sfl' Kavrhewan River, to Norway House?- From Edmonton to Carlton was u >uccr; -iicin ill prairie lands, producing a scant grass, not at all a rich grass, except'! " 11! ualhes in the rivers, where the water course>} run down. From near ( ,rl. from Carlton, nearly the whole way, SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. afii We bad Hoiiii-.times diffiirulty in getting griiss for the Mr.J.MUi*. no means ; it er? — I have i'Tv was none wny, oil horseback, horses at iiiglit. 4»ii)j. Cfiairiiian.] Can you give the Committee any idea whether the country in good for settlement '.- Tlic prairies, I tiiink, are not so jiroductive as people imnirine they are ; there is no doubt that in the gullies, where tiie little streams run down into the Saskatohewnn, and in some part of the Saskatchewan itself, it is very fertile 4(i(jj. Do you know thi.' Miiiesota (;ouiitry? — No. I have never been there. 4(i()3. Mr Charles ritztri Ilium.'] Is there any cultivation on tlu> northern hrancli of the Saskatchewan ; any farming ? — We have a small farm at Edinoiitnn. 4t)iH. What is produced there? — They tried to tii nv wheat; they put up a windmill first of all, and tried to grow wheat, and then they found that they could 'lot grow it. 4t)i).'-,. \\'\\\ barley grow there? — Yes, I think barley grows there. 4(iy6. And oats? — Yes. 4(197. Have they attempted togiijvv Indian - 46()S. Do catth; thrive well i*— Very well curious to say that the jicople will not eat ti meat that thev will not eat on stall-fed animal 4(199. Are buffaloes very abundant in thi whole way through there rn ?— No. lav some cattle then- py get so much It is buffalo >f the country ? — Yes, the pted to support animal 4700. CJiving evidence that the country is v life's' — Yes, there is no question of that, I sboui ,, 4701. How many days were 30U in getting from the boat encampment to Jasper's House r — I think we were seven or eight. When I referred to getting out ol the mountains I meant where we met our horses to take us to Jasper's House ; we wen' two days after we met the horses, after we got out of the iiiountiiin passes, in getting to Jasper's House. 470 J. Is there any other jjass across the mountains besides that from the boat enciunpment to Jasper's House, north of the boundary line ? — The only one is through the Peace Kiver to the north. 1 never beard of any other. 4703. Mr. C/instj/.\ Is the pass over the Rocky Mountains very precipitous and difficult? — Yes, very difficult. In returning over the mountains we were on horseback, and we were obliged to get off our horses ; we could not sit on them. 4704. On which side is it thi; most precipitous ? — On the west side. 470.=). Did it appear to you that there would be any means of making a better communication between the east and the west sides for the jmrpose of getting over that ridge of mountains ? — I saw nothing bur difficulties anywhere except- ing in the road itself, and there were quite enough there, certainly. 47o(). Did you make any inquiry as to whether there was any better pass which could be resorted to V — I made no inquiry, because I thought that they would naturally fake the best pass for crossing the mountains. I know that there is no pass until you come to the Kootanais pass, which is in the American territory. 4707. Mr. Kiniiaird.] Is that very much lower in point of height ? — Yes ; I believe they cross there with waggons. 47118. Are there any beasts of burthen which ever pass over ; do the Indians employ any beasts of burthen ? — None but horses. 4709. You never heard of any crossing that part ? — No. •) Jono 1" 57. 0.24 — Sess. 2. K K 3 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 :frl«- IIM mZ 112 oo I.I ■^ 1^ 112.2 i ti& 112.0 1.8 11.25 i 1.4 nil 1.6 V] <^ /a >> '/ fliotographic Sdences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 362 MINUTES OF EVroENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Jovus, 1 r die Jutt'ii, 1857. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Cliristy. Mr. Edwuid Kllice. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliatn. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Grogan, Mr. Percy Herbert. Ml. Kiniuiird. Mr. Lulioucliere. Mr. I.owe. Mr. Malheann. Mr. Ropbuck. Viscount Saniioii. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE in thb Chaib. Mr. John McLauijIilin, called in ; and Examined. Mr. 4710. Chairman] ARE you acquainted with the affairs of the Hudson's Bay J. M'LaugMia. Company r— Partially. — 471 1- VVhat has led you to become acquainted with them ? — I lived there for 11 .June 1857. a number of years. 4712. In what capacity ? — Not in any capacity connected with the Company ; I was there partly as a settler, and partly I went there merely to see the country at first, but I remained there for some years. 4713. U here did you reside as a settler? — In the Red Hiver Settlement. 4714. How many years were you there as a settler? — About five years, I think. 471,5. Have you any property there still ? — No property. 4716. You have no intention of returning to it? — No. 47 1 7. Were you ever connected with the Hudson's Bay Company in any manner r — In no manner further than that 1 have done some little business for them. 4718. You were never in their service ? —Never. 4719. Mr. Gregs(>n.\ What was your occupation there; an agricultural settler ?~No ; I have a relative there, an uncle, who has been there for some 30 or 40 years, and I was living with liim when I went there. 4720. Chairman.] H)w many years ago was that ? — 1 left in the latter part of 1849. 47 jt. Mr. Christi/.] Did you ever possess any land or property while you were there ? — Never, cxccfjt gogids. 4722. What was your chief occupation ? — I traded there a little. 4723. In wliat? — In general goods. 4724. Will you give us a little more information as to the nature of the goods in which you traded ? —1 hrou;>lit goods from the United States there, and traded them with the settlers or others. 472,5. What were the kinds of goods ? — ^^fhe general description of trading goods which are required in an Indian country, or in fact atiy where. 4726. Chairman.] What articles were the principal part of your stock in a commerce of that kind ? —Blankets and cottons; some ammunition, and tobacco. 4727. Mr. Roeimc/c.] Had you any .spirits? — Never but once; I brodght spirits once through tlie country, that is all. 4728. For what purpose ; to trade with .' — No; for private use. 4729. Chairman.] You never sold any spirits at all? — I cannot say that I have done so on my own account. 4730. Did you ever, on your own account, or on the account of anybody else, engage at all in the trade of spirits? — It is such a length of time back tliat a person has really to refresh his memory before he can possibly ans wer the question properly. 4731. You are not prepared to tell the Committee that you did not? — No, I am not. 4732. Mr. « SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSO^'S LAY COMPANY. 263 4732. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Have you any knowledge of that document [handing a Paper to the \Vitne>,n) ? — Yes. 473J- Was your name attached to it?- It was ; it is rather bad French. \2'he same was read as follows :\ Aux Metifs et Colons pe la Biviere Bouoe. Il V0U8 ecrit pour vous informer que votre cause dans ce pays-ci fait des progr^s et triomplie rnpidemcnt. .T'etais vrainient surpris de trouver en arrivant ici combien ellc avait univcrselleinent excite rinterest jfenerale du peuple de la Grande Bretange. Continuez hordiinent et sana craiute dans votre presente attitude. Sourtout n'ayez point recours a des moycns violens, mais soyez I'ernie ^t resolu de soutenir vos droits. Vous avez plein pouvoir coDimc rcpet<^nt Ics Journeaux Anglais, et surtout Le Parlement Britanique, de faire, aveo qui il vous pliiit le coninierce dans toutcs les productions de votre pays. N'ccoutez pas ces histoircs ridicules que Ton vous racontera pour vous intimider. Vous avez Le Droit pour vous. Votre compatriot, M. Isbister, a interess^ des amis tres puissans de ce cot^-ci des mers, qui vous suppnrteront si vous vou» montez dignes de I'intereft quils vous portent. Courage ! mes amis. En avant t ! Votre tr^s sincere ami, John M'Laughlin, 4734. Mr. Roebuck.'] When was it that you put forth that very interesting document? — It was written in 1850. 473,> Had you heard that anybody interfered with the trade, because you tell the natives that they must sell the productions of their country to whom they please. Had you ever heard that anybody interfered with them ? — For some years tliey were in opposition to the Hudson's Bay Company ; they traded furs all throughout the country, and it was that in a measure which led to the disj)utes with the Hudson's Bay Company, and 1 dare say to the present com- mission of inquiry. 4736. Mr Edward Ellice.] They trade in furs? — They trade in furs. 4737. Mr. Roehuck.] It led to disputes with whom ? — Disputes between the Hudson's Bay Company and the settlers. 4738. Did the Hudson's Hay Company interfere with the Indians selling their peltries to the settlers ? — Often. 4730. In what way r — In every possible way they could do it ; by persecution and other means. 4740. How did they jjersecute?— By stopping their supplies on them. 4741. Supposing an Indian had come ro you with his hands full of furs, would you have dared to buy them ? — Certainly. 4742. And he would have dared to sell them ? — He might not have dared to do it in the same way that I would have dared to have bought them. 4743. What would have been the consequence to him of spelling them to you ? —In some cases their furs have been seized and impounded ; they have im- prisoned the parties, or impounded the furs. 4744. Supposing thev had passed from his hands to yours, would the Hudson's Bay ('ompany then have seized them?— I dare say if they thought that thty had the power to do so ihey would. 474.5 Did you evi-r experience anything of that sort ? — Not with myself, but I have known cases with others. 474t). Mr. Grogan.] Have you any cases of parties who were imprisoned for selling furs to settlers ? — Yes, I have. 4747. Wire those furs ever forfeited, or was the value of them given to the party who sold them ?— In several cases they have received value, in other cases they have been impounded upon the plea of debt. h748. Is this what you mean by the term " persecution," which you used a short time ago ? — \es. 4741). You said something about stopping their supplies : will you explain that:- The general means that an Indian has of living is by receiving a certain amount of (lebt, in the spring or fall of the year ; and if they do not receive those sui)plies they must starve, unless they can get them from some settler or some other party. 47,50. In point of fact, have you known any instance in which those supplies have been refused ?— Yes, many instances. 4751. Have you ever known a case of staiTation resulting from such refusal? 0.24— Sess. 2. K K 4 —No, Mr. J. M'Laughlin. 1 1 June 1 857. 264 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE : ' i I : 1 - 1 t 1 i n Mr. — No, I cannot exactly say that I have, but I know that that would be the J. M'Laug/ilvi. consequence. 475a. Have you known any case of severe suffering among the Indians from tl June 1857. tjjg yi^xit of such supplies? — I have known that they liave been thrown upon the community, unable to go out to their hunts, 4753. Is the impression general in the minds of the Indians, that in the event of their trafficking in furs with the settlers they will be subject to such privations? — Yes; therefore in selling the furs they have to smuggle thein to the settlers, or to the parties who purchase. 4754. Does the system which yon have just explained to us, as to the traihcking in furs between the Indian and the settler, apply to the trafficking in furs of the Indians and the half-breeds ?— It ap|)liea to some 47,5.5. Is there any difficulty in the trafficking in furs between the Indians inter se ? — There is a certain traffic, but it applies generally to all ])arties ; the Company strive to prevent it in every possible way, even amongst the Indians. 475t). Will you explain what you allude to f — I mean to say that the Indians are prevented even from making presents to one another ; they cannot trade with each other ; if the Hudson's Bay Company are aware of it, they will take means to stop it. They even prevent presents from one Indian to anotlier, and have gone so far as to try to bring missionary efforts to prevent them even wearing furs. 47,1)7. Mr. Roebuck.'l In what way did they bring missionary efforts ; did they tell them, for example, that the anger of God would follov the wearing of a fox skin ? — I dare say they might not have spoken in that way, but they wished them to exert their influence. 1 know one particular case myself where it has occurred, where they applied to the missionary to interfere ; they had been wearing furs about the bottom of the river, and Mr. Smithurst was applied to for the purpose, but he refused. 4758. Mr. Grogan.] Was he the missionary ? — He was the missionary. If I am not mistaken, he is in England at present, perhaps in London ; I dare say he might corroborate the statement if he was called upon. 47.59. Mr. Roelmck.] What was he asked to do r — He was asked to interfere. 4760. In what way ? — The missionaries there have a certain power and influence over the Indians ; I do not say that he was to do it officially from his pulpit, but to si)eak to those around him, and to bring his influence m that manner to bear upon them. 4701. He was asked, then, by some authority of the Hudson's Bay Company to go to the Indians, and in his character of missionary to try and persuade them not to wear furs.' — Whether in his character of missionary or not, I cannot ^ay> but i'^ his character as a person having influence over them. 4762. Will J ite certain particulars, and give cases to the Committee in which this sort hat you call persecution on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company took pkce? — It was so general that it would be impossible to do it at this time el" day. . 4703. Is a thing so general that it is impossible to state any particular?— I think so ; when it is so general that is where the impossibility lies ; if it was an individual or solitary case, I could at once light upon the party ; but 1 know that in 1845 and 1844, at the time that this trading was carried on to such an extent, the Indians and the settlers, or those parties who trailed in furs, received immense annoyance i:i that way from the Hudson's Bay Comi)au/ in their refusing to sell them goods and to give them certain supplies. 4764. Mr. Chrhty,^ Was thai a time ot peculiar excitement ? — Yes. 4765. Will you endeavour to describe that to the Committee. Instead of merely answering the question, unless you endeavour to describe to the Com- mittee what you mean to represent, it involves a number of questions being put which perhaps might be unnecessary if you would enter into a more general description upon that which you wish to state r — In 1844 and 1845, and for two years, there was quite a ferment in the settlement, owing, in a measure to this trading in furs ; and not only that, but other disadvantages undCi which they laboured, created this excitement. There were prohibitory duties placed upon goods coming into the settlement ; upon manufactured goods entering the country. 4766. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Will you state of what those prohibitory duties consisted, and how they were put on ? — I shall refer to them again if you will allow me. I have the original documents on the subject in my possession. They were SELECT COMMIITEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 265 t would be the questions being were prohibited from trafficking or importing goods from the United States except once a year, and tliat only to the amount of 50 I. sterling. There was a complete discouragement thrown in the way of an export trade with Kngland in tnllow and hides and tongues ; there was an issue of land deeds of the most peculiar and ridiculous nature, and of such a character as no British subject could possibly submit to. In fact there was a licence of a very severe nature, and no person could trade at all except under this licence. With regard to these land deeds, one peculiarity in them was — I might mention, that the parties had received this land, and purchased it some 20 years previous to this from another proprietor entirely, and they were called upon then to sign away their powers — one provision of the deed was, that the Hudson's Bay Company should grant them permission before they could sell their land to any other party. They could not even trade in furs in any other part of North America, and there were some other things like that. Then again there was a total pro- hibition of the fur trade, the only natural production of the country in its pre- sent wild state, with a great many other things that they had to complain of. These proclamations perhaps were contingent upon the fur trade, but at the same time they kept the settlement in a state of ferment. 4767. Mr. Roebuck.] You have mentioned three separate facts, and I want you, if you can, to supply to the Committee evidence of those facts. First, you say tiiere was a prohibition to trade? — Yes. 47(18. Have you any documents in proof of that ? — I have. I think, if I am not mistaken, some of those proclamations were put in before ; there is one here. 47(19. What is that document r— This document is with regard to sending letters open to the Fort actually for the perusal of the Company. 4770. What is the character of the document itself? — It is a proclamation which has been issued by Alexander Christie, Governor of Assiniboia. 4771. Will you be good enough to let me look at it? (TIte xame was handed to the Honourable Member.) 1 see this is a copy. Where is the original? — I think I can show you the orij,inal {handing the same to the Honourable Member). 6,1T1. This is No. 4, "Winter Express. — All letters which are intended to be sent by this conveyance must be left at this office on or before the 1st of January ; every letter nmst have the writer's name written by himself in the left hand comer below, and if the writer is not one of those who have lodged a declaration against trafficking in furs, his letter must be brouj^ht open, its in- closures, if any, being open also, to this office, and here closed. Alexander Cliristie, Governor of Assiniboia, Upper Fort Garry, 20th December 1844." That is an original document?— It is an original document ; this is also a letter bearing upon it. 477.3- Viscount Oodcrich.] Do you know that that is Mr. Christie's signature ? —Perfectly. 4774. C)f your own knowledge ■ — Of my own knowledge. 477.5. Mr. Grogan.'] It was publicly proclaimed to the settlement? — Yes, I took it down myself to make certain of it, which I did with all the other proclamations. 4776. Mr. Roebuck.'] Does this letter apply to that r — It applies to that. 4777. Chairman.] From whom is that letter? — From one of the Company's clerks on the subject. 4778. Mr. Roebuck.] It is signed by " R. Lane," and addressed to "Andrew M'Uermot." " My dear Sir, — As by the new regulations regarding the posting of letters, it would be necessary that Mr. M'Laughlin should send up his letters open for my perusal, a thing which cannot be agreeable to him, will you have the goodness to tell him that in his case I shall consider it quite sufficient his sealing the letters in my presence witiiout any perusal on my part, and for that purpose I shall call in at your house to-morrow evening. Believe me, yours very sincerely, R. Lane " ? — Yes. 4779- Mr. Grogan.] Do you know whether any of the settlers at the Red River, besides yourself, took exception to that proclaniiition and refused to submit to it f — Yes, it was general from one end of the settlement to the other. 4780. Was the regulation endeavoured to be enforced by the government, so far as refusing to take the letters unless they complied with the proclamation '.' —Mr. Sinclair's letters were refused. 0.24— Sess. 2. Ll 4781. Mr. Mr. J. M'l.avghlin. 11 June 1857. irl . • ilJ' n i66 MINIJIES OF E\ I01.NCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. M'Laughlin. II June 1857. 47S1. Mr. Edirard EUice.] Who was Mr. Sinclair ? — He wns a settler. 4782. W as he one of those who trafficked in furs ! — Yes, he trafficked in furs the same as the other settlers. 47 53. iVIr. (rro(/an.] Was Mr. Sin'^lair tlie gentleman concerned in a specu- lation in tallow which the Company refused to take to England?— The same gentleman. 4754. Mr. Jioelwck.] 1 see Proclamation No. 2 in the paper which you have handed to me, by the governor of the Red River Colony ; I suppose thiss is a copy also .' — That is a copy. 478';. Have you the original of it ? — I think so. 478(1. This is the proclamation: "Whereas, under the fumiamental laws of liupert's Land, it is notoriously illegal to traffic with other countries, or in imported commodities, unless under the protection of the written licence of the Hudson's l!ay Company ; and whereas, under the general law of England, an illegal transaction cannot be aided by a court of justice, \Nhether to make the debtor pay what he owes, or the agent account for wliat he has received, I hereby fjive notice, that in oriier to guard the fair and honest dealer against othcr\vise unavoidable embarrassment and loss, I shall forward to every maritime importer wlio has lodged a declaration against trafficking in furs a licence to the following effect: * On behalf of the Hudson's Bay Company, I hereby hcense to trade, and also ratify his having tra'i-^d in English goods within the limits of Red Kiver Settlement, this ratiiicatiou and this licence to be null and void from the beginning in the event of his hereafter traflicking in furs, or generally of his usurping any one whatever of all the privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company.' Given at Fort Garry this "th December 184'f ;" but there is no signature ? — No. 4787. Have you thr original ? — 1 have {haiuling the same to the Honourable Member). 47>»8. Mr. Edward EUice.'] The dtite of that is 1844 ; you remained in the country for some years after that ; did not you ?— ' did. •4789. Are you aware whether those proclamations were disallowed by the Hudson's Bay Company in London.'— I am not aware of that ; I think there is quite a difference between the Hudson's Bay Company in London, and the Hudson's Bay Company in Hudson's Bay. 47(10. Were those |)roclamations put in force after the first year ? — They were. 4791. For how long were they put in force? — Until 1848, I think, or some time like that. This petition, some years afterwards to the Council, was sent on the very same subject, if you will allow me to read it : " We, the undersigned American importers, most resi)ectfully lay before the Governor and Council of Assiniboia certain claims for drawback upon imports from the United JStales, paid the Collector of C^ustoms under protest " (that shows they were paid), " which we hope your honourable body will order to be refimded, as at the time of importing these goods your humble petitioners were not aware of any revenue law being in force other than the one known as the 4 "/o law, and a])plicable to imports either way ; that as igtioraiU'ui fiicti excusat, and a sufficient publicity not having been given, your petitioners do not consider themselves liable to this extra impost, and wouhl with submission urge their reasons for so believing : 1st. That this duty, founded on the Cana- dian tariff", was never promulgated, and was framed for i)eculiar purjwses, 15th June 1845, to suit the exigencies of that period; 2nd. That it remained a dead letter for two years, and as no action had been taken on it during that time it should be now considered as null ; 3d. That several of your petitioners had sent for goods before aware; of its existence, and have sustained losses in conse(|uence ; that many of them are yet ignorant of tlie duties payable upon the different descriptions of merchandise, so that as likely as not the articles imported might be under prohibition, or such as would entail positive loss to the inijwrter ; 4th. That these goods were brought at a time when the settle- ment stood greatly in need of them , 5th. That a colony situated as this is, isolated from the world, and possessing no export advantages, should not be taxed the same as Canada ; tbi- whilst we admit that there should be a protec- tion extended to British manufacture here, as well as in other English colonies, still the tariff should always be reguluted to suit the condition of the country, for what may be admitted free in one country might be heavily assessed in another, and both under the same government. Your petitioners respectfully THE a settler, rafticked in furg ned in a spetu- lid?— The same rthich you have iuppose this is a imental laws of uouutries, or in ill licence of the of England, an ler to make the 5 has received, it dealer against ) every naaritime furs a licence to l)any, I hereby n English goods d this licence to rafter tratticking the ))ri\'ilege8 of ?cember 1844;" 3 the lioiwurabk remained in the lisallowed by the t ; I think there Liondon, and the Eir ? — They were. I think, or some le Council, was it : " We, the 'e the Governor )ii imports from St " (that shows vili order to be mble petitioners le one known as igtioraniw facli ' petitioners do witli submission ed on the Cana- ;uliar pur|)0ses, 'hat it remained n it during that your petitioners stained losses in es payable upon not the articles positive loss to when the settle- lated as this is, should not be )uld be aprotec- other EngUsh he condition of might be iieavily Your petitioners respectfully SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 267 respectfully consider that a trade carved out by themselves, and attended with 80 much risk and labour, should rather be fostered and encouraged tlian have restriction^ thrown in its way ; they would therefore beg of you to rescind the 7th resolution passed 16th January 1847i except in so far as relates to the exportation of cattle, as the wants of Her Majesty 9 troops stationed here could in no way so improve the condition of the American importers as to justify its adoption, as it is a well known fact tliat most of our exports to the United States consist in leather, mocassins, buffalo tongues, and Indian curiosities, articles which meet with no demand from the military, and afford employment to many faniilit's in the settlement. Your petitioners would earnestly urge upon the consideriition of your honourable body, the necessity of assimilating the duties imposi d upon American imports to the English tariff, or ai least in so far re-modelling the same that they will not amount, as at present, almost to a prohibition, and respectfully suggest that five per cent, or six be the maximum rate on tdl foreign imports, without any differential duty, except on such articles as may interfere with the existing laws of the United States or England, or your honourable body may deem injurious to the welfare of the settlement." 4792. Mr. Gregson.] What is the date of that pi'tition ? — It was some time in 1848 that it was sent. 4793. Mr. Edward £llk'f.] Were those proclamations in force when you came away from the colony r — No. 4794. .Mr. Grogan.] Was there any official answer returned to that petition whicii you have just read?— A petition was presented through .Mr. Thom for remission of duties, wiiich he never replied to. 4795. Is that the one which you have just referred to r — Yes. 4796. Mr. Roebuck.] 1 have read to you the Proclamation No. 2. I find appended to it a copy of .Minutes of Council ? — Yes. 4797. 1 find that the date of those Minutes of Council was the 3d Ai)ril 1845. Are these Minutes of Council subsequent to the Proclamation No. '2, which I have read ? — I iiave not read those at all for years, and perhaps you will permit me to do so. 4798. The proclamation is, " Given at Fort Garry this 7th December 1844," and the other document is in 1843? — The excitement was going on until the troops arrived. 4799. There were present at this council, " Alexander Christie, Adam Thom, the Right reverend the Bishop of Juliopolis, the Reverend William Cockran, James Bird, John Pritchard, Alexander Ross, Robert Logan, George M. Carey, the Reverend John M'Callum, Andrew M'Dermot, Cuthbert Grant, John Bunn, and John P. Pruden.'" — Yes. 4800. Who were those latter persons in that council ; were they settlers r — They were all connected with the Hudson's Bay Company ; I tlunk every one of them. Will you allow me to look over the names ; it is some years since I have read them? {The document was handed to the H'itness.) The Rev. Mr. Cocknm and the Right rev. the Bishop of Juliopolis were both pensioners of the Cotnpany ; George M . Carey was also connected with the Company, receiving a certain sum. They were every one in some way or other connected with the Comjjany. 4801. Then in your opinion that council did not fairly represent the colonists of the Red River ? — Not at all ; it represented the Company. 4802. They were in fact the representatives of the Company of Hudson's Bay?— Yes. 4S03. " The President having stated that he had called the present meeting in consequence of Mr. Bird, the collector, having on .Monday la.st informed him that certain importers of American goods had refused to pay the duty on their imports, requesting at the same time the president's instructions as to the steps that should be taken for enforcing payment of the same, the council declined sharing with the collector any part of the responsibiUty. The follow- ing resolutions, which were proposed by Mr. Thorn and seconded by Dr. Bunn, were then unanimously passed." I find a note ; is this in your handwriting ? — It is not in my handwriting. 4804. There is a note \i\wn the name of Mr. Thom, and as that note con- tains a very important statement, I wish you to look at it and tell me in whose handwriting it is ?— Ihat is Peter Garrick's writing in the settlement, if I am not mistaken in the writing. 0.24— Sess. 2. 1.14 -2 4805. Does Mr. J. U'Laughlin. II June 1857. 268 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. M'Laugkliii. II June 1(1^7. I 48(1,1. Does that statement agree with your experience? — I could not pog. sibly say. 4Sof). Of your own personal experience, can you suy that that is true r— I should sny not ; 1 think it is only n suggestion, more than anything else. 4807. Tlifse are the resolutions : — "Whereas all matters of general interest ought to be tried and adjudged before the General Court: It is resolved, Ist. That all questions of revenue or ))rohibition, or licence, however inconsiderable may be the amount of the claim, shall be determined by the governor and council, and a jury ; whereas, in the absence of written agreements the best evidence is commonly to be found in the breasts of the parties themselves ; Resolve*!, 2d. That in all cases coming before the General Court, the plaintiff may summon the defendant, or the defendant may summon the plaintiff as a witness ; and it is Resolved, 3d. That Adam Thorn, John Bunn, and Alexander Ross, Esqrs., shall be a commission for examining such parties according to the English principles of equity ; and it is Resolved, 4th. That the resultn of such examination shall go as evidence to the jury, either with or without evidence ; it is Resolved, 5th. That this council do now adjourn." Does that mode of administering law agree with your experience of what occured while you were there ? — That was the common mode afterwards. 4808. After those resolutions were passed ? — Yes. With regard to the plain- tiff and defendant, I know one case (I do not like to be personal) where the recorder of the court, in a case of his own, was sun-moned, and he denied the competency of the court to tr}' him. I know a similar case where the governor was concerned, and ho denied the competency of the country to try him ; that is to say, that he was beyond all legal influence. 4809. You have used the words " try him ; " was it a cause that was to he tried, or was it the governor?— A cause, I suppose. 4810. Did he deny the competency of tlie country to try a cause between him and a private individual ? — That was what it was ; it was a matter which was brought before bin). 4811. Chairman.'} Was it a civil or a criminal cause? — It was a civil matter. 48 1 2. Mr. Grogan.'] There was a dispute between the governor and some of the settler)!, and on the settlers seeking justice, the, governor said that he thought that the authorities on the spot were not competent to decide it ; is that the substance of your evidence? — It was a mercantile dispute. 4813. And the governor said that the authorities on the spot were not com- petent to entertain and decide that matter f — Yes. 4814. Mr. Roebuck.'] What was the nature of the dispute? — It was a matter with regard to a dispute in freight. Certain parties in the country had agreed to take freight from York Factory to the Red River for the Company, and, by the contract, each piece of goods was to have been 90 lbs. avoirdupois weight ; it appears that the Company had been in the habit of making up pieces in England ; I do not say that they were aware of the circumstance themselves ; but, however, there was an increase of some 10 or 15 lbs., and in some cases more, to each piece, for which they were paying only at the rate of 90 lbs., for which the contract was made. It was about this dispute in claiming for the over-freight that the action was brought, or attempted to be brought against the governor. 4815. And upon that matter of civil contract the governor said that he being the party contracting was wholly beyond the limits of the law, and that no law could interfere between him and anything that he did ? — Yes. If I could run throxigh my papers, I have a letter here, I am sure, with the substance of that in it. 4816. I suppose the result of that transaction was, that the parties got no justice ? — They got no justice in any way ; it had to be referred to this country. 481 7. In what way ?— It was referred to Canada first of all ; I was the party that brought it forward. I went to Montreal ; I offered to lay it before the Board of Trade in Montreal— that is to say, the Chamber of Commerce— and they refused to submit it to that mode. 4818. Who refused ?— The Hudson's Bay Company. Then I brought it to London, and offered to lay it before the Board of Trade here. Tlie Hudson's Bay it occured while that was to be -It was a civil SELECT COMMiriEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ^69 Boy Company refused that, but they offered to leave it to arbitration in a certain way, provided they were all legal referees or legal parties to it. 481;). Mr. Edtvard Ellke.'] And it was settled? — It was ultimiitely settled after putting me to a little inconvenience. 4.Sio. Mr. Koebuvk.'l How was it settled ?— By paying a certain sum. 4821. Did the Company pay a certain sum? — They paid a certain sum to Messrs. M'Dermot and Sinclair. 482a. So that the result was that the Company turned out to he wrong ? — The very payment might establish it to be so ; but they must have been wrong decidedly. 4823. Then they gave the parties the trouble of bringing that matter from Hudson's Bay to I'.ngland ? — Y es ; and at the same time they brought a charge against me on that very subject — fo.- writing rather indiscreetly— and they entered a criminal action against me, and imprisoned me. 4824. Mr. Edward Ellicc.'] That was for libel, was it not ? — Yes. 48^5. Mr. lioebuck.] Where? — In the Criminal Court in the Old Bailey, which was dismissed of course. 48'jf). Mr. Edward Ellke.] Was it not for an attempt to extort money ? —That was the charge ; and it is the usual mode of the Hudson's Buy Company to bring forward such charges. It is very easy to bring forward a charge, but it is not so easy to substantiate it. 4827. 1 he charge was an attempt to extort money by threatening to publish a libel, was it not ? — Yes, that was the charge which was made. The charge of course was dismissed in the Old Hailey. 4828. Mr. Ruehitck.'] In what way was the charge brought before the Old Bailey r— By a judge's warrant which was issued. 4829. A judge's warrant issued against you ? — Yes ; four or five years after the occurrence. 4830. Was there any indictment laid before the grand jury ? — Yes, I should say so. '4831. Was that indictment found by the grand jury ? — I do not understand the mode which was taken at all in the matter, further than that I was arrested and the matter was tried here. 48;i2. You were arrested; were you brought into court? — I was. 4833. Were you brought before a jury? — I was brought forward there. I do not understand much about law. 4834. Was there a jury sworn to try your case ? — I do not know really ; the thing was dismissed, I know. The fact was, that it went off so liglit'y that I did not understand the process. 4835. Mr. Grogan.'] Do you know what court it was ? — The Old Bailey. 4836. Did you employ counsel to defend you on that occasion ?— I did. 4837. Whom: — Mr. Parr , 4>'38. Did the judge charge Jie jury with regard to your case, and did the jury acquit you ? — The judge acquitted me. 483(). Did you know whether there was a jury or not? — No, I cannot say refiily. 4840. Was it in court that you were brought, or before the judge himself in chambers ? — The court. 4841 . And the charge was stated that you had published this libel with intent to extort money ? — Yes. 48^2. And your counsel endeavoured to defend you? — Yes. 4843. And on the statement on both sides being heard by the judge he dis- missed you?— Yes. 4844. Mr. Roebuck.'] Was there any evidence given ?— No evidence. 4845. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Did tlie indictment go off upon the ground that the statute did not apply to a corporation ? — Yes, I think so ; it is the usual mode of doing it ; it is only very lately that the Hudson's 15ay Company have brought a charge against a clergyman for trading a buffalo robe, or at least mentioned they would do so. 484r>. Mr. Orogaii.'] On your dismissal from the court, so ended the whole of that transaction ? — Yes. 4847. Did you,in justification of yourself, take any step against the Company 0.24— Sess. 2. L L 3 afterwards Mr. J. M'Lavglilin. II June 1 867. i '1 :i:-.4' aro MIXrTKS OF F,VinF.N( E TAKEN BRFORK THE J. M'laughliii. 1 1 June 1857. iiftrrwanLs on the f^round of faiHe iinpriHoninpiit. or anvthiiipf of that kind? I would Imvf done so, but my fatln-r prt'vcntfd ujc. 484K. \Vn9 it your intention to have doni' so except for the interferenee of your fatlier ? — Yes, I hud taken the jm liniinary stejjs. 4^4<). You had eomineneed an action r —I h;id eoininonced an action, and had served a notice upon tlie Hudson's ihiy Company. 48;,o. Did you do that under advice '- - Under advice. 48') I. Mr. Ed r aril K/licc] Did you take out n writ •— I was prevented; I merely took thi- preliminary Hteps ; my father previ-nted me from ])rocee(ling any further. 4S-,j. What were those jjrcliminury steps f — Serving a notice upon the Comjiany through my solicitor. 4H'J5. Mr. (rro^iin.] Can you give us tlie date when the applic.ition was made to tlic Governor by these contractors for payment of the over-freiglit which they carried? -I nnght mention that, after tins very occurrence, I was actually in the Hudson's B.iy Company's employment; some year^ afterwards I wait employed by th( ni to go to the United States, and tliey gwve me a [)assage home through the Hudson's Straits in tluir vessel, and even informed me when I v/aa in Liverpool tliat they were going to serve me with a Benclj warrant, just to give me an opportunity to leave the country ; if thi^y wanted to arrest me they could easily liave done it ; I just consider it necessary for me to make this statement as it has gone forward. 48.-,4. Can you mention the date at which the application for the payment of the over-freight was made to tlie divernor ? — You mean in the settlement there ; not here ? 48-,.'5. Ves.— The 2'.id day of July iH45. 48.-)t). How shortly after that was it that the (iovernor dechired himself as out of the jurisdiction of the law ; was it the same year ? — I think in August or in July. 48,57. In tlie same year? — In the same month. 4S.5S. Then you went to Canada about this, and finally you came to England? — Yes. 4S5{). Mhen you were in England the Company paid this over-freight ? — N(i, it was afterwards ; when I was in England I made the demand perhops ratlier indiscreetly. I am rather wihl sometimes in my epistolary corres- pondence. 4800. You made a second demand in England ? — I made a demand in England. 4861. Where and when was tlie amount so demanded paid? — Jt was paid afterwards to Mr. M'Dermot and Mr. Sinclair, in Red River. 48()2. Do you know where it was jiaid '. — No ; I should think it was in 1850 that it was paid. 48(13 Are we to understand you that between the period of demanding payment for the over-freight aiftl the iiayment of the debt itself, five years, or thereabouts, elapsed?— Yes, it was four or five years before they made any acknowledgment or returti, or paid this freight. 4864. Then this prosecution of yourself, to which you have called our atten- tion, arose out of the letter addressed by you to the Comjiany in this country on that subject ?— Yes. 48(1.-,. Mr. Rocbuclc] Do vou know what the sum demanded was; was it 353 /. '.—I think so ; 300 /. or 400 /. 48(56. How much was paid eventually ? -I really cannot say; but I think it was 100/. each that they paid them ; they were glad to get anything. 4867. So that, eventually, after five years' waiting, the parties received 100 /. ? — So I understood. 4868. Mr. Edwin d Etlicc] Is that Mr. M'Dermot's writing (/faz/rfin^' a paper to the Witness). Is that Mr. M'Dermot's signature .'—This is his signature, certainly. 4869. That is a receipt for the money ; in what year ? — In 1846 ; Imt will you allow me just to look through some of these documents ; I may be a little hasty in dates. There is such a confusion, and so long a time has elapsed, that I have not looked over these things, and I may he hasty. It is impossible that the money could have been paid in 1840, because it was in 1849 that I was arrested. 4870. Mr. tice upon the 1(1 was ; was it but I think it SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THi: HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 371 4S70. Mr. (iroffan.] And yoii wcrr nrn-stt'd previously to tin- piiymcitr — I c.tn sliow you a ])()wer of attorney from Mr. M'Dtriiiot durin^ tha^ date, wiii(!)i will Hettli^ the whole matter. 4H71. Mr. Roe/>uck.\ Tl»i» is u receipt Kiven by Andrew M'Denuot in full of all demands: " Ueeeived from the Honourable Hudson's Buy ('um])any the 8U111 of 100 /. sterling in full of all claims and demands whatsotiver, in reference to nil transactions between myself and the said Company, or its reitresentativea, which have taken [dace up to this date r " and the date is the i5th of July 18-10 ? — That nught have reference to some other proceeding. 4S72. When did this transaction take pluce about which you say these dis- putes occuiTed r— I shall have to go over the whole affair, as it is broui^ht forward. In I8-1(> I was in communication with the Hudson's Hay Company in .January and February, unit pi-rhaps March, on this very subject. Then ( retunu'd to Hudson's May after that, and when 1 was there it was not settled, nor did I understand that it was settled. 487.3. This is a receipt given in July I84G, in full of all demands ? — ^'es. 4874. Your transactions, you say, with the Hudson's Diiy Company, took place in the spring of that year, in January und February : — Yes. 487,'). Therefore is not that a receipt in full of all those demands ? — I do not know whether it refers to that exactly or not ; I could not possibly say, because I hud not arrived buck agiun in the settlement in the July of that year. I did not arrive buck ai;ain in the settlement until September, I think. 487ti. When was the demand made in England? — In January. 4577. Of 1846?- In 1840. 4578. Then this is a receipt in full in July ? — It might have been got behind my buck : I only understood this much, that it was settled. 4879. It was settled in that year? — It might be ; 1 cannot say. It might refer to that ; but it does not state the freight account there. 4880. So that your former statement that five years elapseil between the settlement and the claim is inaccurate P — It might l)e, I admit ; but I cannot possibly say whether it refers to that or not ; I am only aware that afterwards I received a letter stating that it was settled for 1 00 /. each. 488 1. Have you that letter with you? — No; it is a private letter from my uncle stating it. I have a power of attorney heie from Mr. M'Dermot, to collect this very I'reight. 4882. You have stated that there were land deeds issued of a verj p.:)uliar character r — Yes. 4883. Have you any land deed with you? — I bad a land deed, and I do not know what lias become of it. I came off very hurriedly, and just scrambled up idl the papers that 1 could lay my hands upon ; I had only a few hours' notice. 4884. You cannot find that land deed ? — No. 4885. Can you from memory state what the purport of that land deed was? —Yes ; I can state distin(!tly that one portion of it was that they could not sell their property without first of all receiving permission from the Hudson's Bay Company. Another portion of it was, that they could not trade in furs or leather in any part of North America. 488(1. You say that one part of it was that they could not sell their property without the permission of the Comjjany ; was that their produce ; did it include wheat or corn which they produced upon the land ? — No, their land ; the fee- simple of it, I suppose. 4887. Was that the universal form adopted when lantl was conceded by the Hudson's Bay Company?— It was latterly that this land deed was brought forward ; it was during the time of these troubles. 4^88. You also stated that there were certain licences to trade ? — Yes. 4889. Have you any copy of those ? — Yes. I have really given this subject very little attention for such a number of years (it is now eight years since I was there), that 1 may be confused with regard to dates ; I really cannot lay my hand on it, but I have it somewhere. 4890. Do you know the date to which the licences refer? — I cannot say, really ; it must have been about 18-14 or 1845. 4891. In the paper you have handed to me there is a copy of a " Licence to freight goods from York Factory;" is that one of them?— It must be one of them. Q.04 — Sess. 2. LL4 4892. " I hereby J. M'Laughlm. II JuM 1847. '! :' 373 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN UKFOKK THE Mr. J. M'Loughlm. II Jim* i8j7. 4892. " I hereby license , of Rwl River Seltli'iin-nt, to carry on the busincsH of a freighter bctwe«'n Ri-d . River Scttlt>iiu>ni iiforcsttul ond York l^'actory; provide*!, liowever, thi.t thiH licence sluill be null and void for every legal purpose from ibis date, if be triiflic in any tbing whatever beyond tbe limitH of the said settlement, excepting in so fur as he may do rq under any municipal regulation, or if be trattic in furs within Rupert's btnd or without, or if be become or continue to be the employer, or tlie a^ent, or tiie partner of any person who may trattic or usurp, or may have trattieited or usurped as aforesaid, or of any such jjerson's debtor." In your recollection iii that a true copy of any such licence f — Yes, that is tbe freighter's licence. 4893. " Given at Fort Oarry, this aJMh day of July 1H45. (Signed) Ahx- under Christie": -Yes. 4894. Does your experience tell you tliot you have seen such licences as this in the original '! — Ves, I have. 4895. 1 find also a procbimation by the Governor of Red River Colony, dated 7th December 1844, to the following effect; and I want hereafter to tiA you whether you have the original of this proclamation : — " Whereas certain persons are known to be trafficking in furs, I hereby give notice that, in order to preclude, if possible, the necessity of adopting stronger measures for the suppression of this illicit trade, the Hudson's Bay Company's ship will hence- forward not receive at any i)ort goods addressed to any jjerson whatever, unless he shall, at least .^. week before the day appointed for the departure of the winter express, h)dge at the office of Upper Fort Garry a declaration to the following effect : ' I hereby declare that since the 8th day of December instant I have neither directly or indirectly trafficked in furs on my own account, nor given goods on credit, or advanced money to such as may be generally sus- pected of trafficking in furs ; moreover, if before the middle of August next I shall appear to have acted contrary to any part of this declaration, I hereby agree that the Hudson's Bay (>ompany shall be entitled either to detain my imports of next season at York Factory for a whole year, or to purchase them at the original cost of the goods alone. " The proclamation goes on : "1 feel confident that the community at large will ap])reciate my motives for extending this regulation for tbe present to all importers without distinction ; and in order to lessen as much as possil)le the trifling inconvenience of making the necessary declarations, the accountant has prepared a sufficient number of copies for the signatures of parties. (Signed) Aleaander Christie, Governor." ? — Yes. 4896. Can you state, upon your own knowledge, that that is a true copy of the proclamation ? — Distinctly. 4897. Mr. Grogaii.'] Have you the original ? — I have. 4898. Have you it with your— No; Mr. Isbister, I think, has it, if I am not mistaken. 4899. Mr. Roebuck.] I will now read to you a law, said to have been passed at Council, on the 19th of June V845, and I will ask you after that whether you can state positively, from your own knowledge, that this is a correct copy of that law : " If any one shall attempt to influence the testimony of such members of his family as a painful necessity may compel the law to call as witness against him, he shall be held to be guilty on bis own implied confes- sion ; provided, however, that he shall still be liable for all tbe pains and penalties of the grave misdemeanor of tampering with the course of justice. The Company undertake to reduce its native spirits to proof, and to tinge them with a peculiar hue not easily imitated. The Company will issue gra- tuitous licences to suitable applicants, permitting and obliging them, during all lawful days, and at all reasonable hours, to retail on their respective premises the Honourable Company's native spirits, in duly measured quantities, less than half a gallon, at the rate of 8 «. a gallon, for ready money only. The Company undertakes to pay 1 *. a gallon duty, provided all other claims of the settlement for duties, penalties and the like, have previously either been paid in fact, or satisfied in law." Does your experience tell you that that is a correct copy ?— This is perfectly correct. 4900. Have you any knowledge of any person being punished for endeavour- ing to tamper with the course of justice, because he endeavoured to influence the evidence of his family ? — I am not aware of any case to that effect. 4901. You cannot say that that law has been carried into effect r — I think not; SKLECT COMMITTEK ON TIIK HI USONS BAY COMPANY. J73 licenre« m this I it, if I am not not ; I cnnnut Miiy that it liaH ; no far an regards tin^in:^ the li(|uor with a peculiar luu>, I am aware that it lia^* not. 4<|iij. I will read aUo from a prociamntion Higiicd by " Alexander Chrintie :" " Finally, in taking thi>« second Hte]) in a well weighed eause of negative e(MT<'ion, of wliit'h the Mtill distant elose will, if neeessary, usher in a ditt'erent Hystcni of pnx-eeding, I i-onfidently exjH'et the cordial sympathy of idl good citi/.( MS in aiming at the sn])pression of the illieit trade in furs ; n trade as prejudicial to tin; solid pr()s|)erity of the settlement, as it is pernicious to the permanent welfare of the Indians" ?— I remember that distinctly. 4(|(i.{. Here is a docinnent which requires some explanation : perhaps you ran give it : it is " Extract from hitter of instruction received by Captain E. V. Sunnier, let Dragoons, United States army, dated Head Quarters, Third Militiiry Department, " May 181.') ;" are these instructions to the United States army '. — It was from Mr. Kitstm that that was received, an American fur trader on the IVmbina. 4i)n4. What relation has this to the ffudson's Bay Company? — The half- breeds were prevented from hunting buffalo on the other side of the 49th Parallel by receiving that, and (H)ri8equently they made claims upon the iludson'a Bay Company for trafficking in furs, to make up for this loss which they met with on being ])revented from hunting buffalo. 4(jC).-,. They were preventtid hunting buffalo by the United States Govern- ment, and in con8e(|uence of that they made certain claims upon the Hudson's Bay {-'ompiiny; do I understand you rightly? — Yes. 4()(i(i. Were those claims acknowleciged by the Hudson's Hay (,'ompanv: — Not" at all. 4i)(i7. Upon what ground did they claim any right to make a demand on the Hudson's Bay C()mi)aMy in consequence of that? — One portion of their support was taken away from them ; and at the same time, when they found that they would get nothing from the C.)uipany, they even made a claim upon the American Government. 4p()«. Mr. Edward KUice.'] Will you tell me whether that is Mr. M'Dennot's signature and handwriting (hundhifl a paper to the Witness) r — It is so. 4909. Should you be surprised if Mr. M'Dermot had written to a gentleman in London, dated the Hth of August 18-t(5, before the settlement w'nich you were speaking of, saying that everything was settled amicably between himself and the Com))any, and ending in this wiiy : " My nej)hew. " that is yourself r — \'e8. 40i<>.'" My nephew, who went home last year, has not made his appearance yet. I am sorry to say that he is a very imprudent young man. He might well know tiiat, whatever he might gain with the Company by being polite, he could gain very little by bullying them to come to terms. When he left here I advised him for the best, but he did not follow my advice in < . e instance. And all the stuff he collected about the settlement was furnished him by people in the service, and otliers who ( nuld be little su.spected for such a thing." Should you be surprised if he had writtcu that? — No, I should not be surprised in the least. I am perfectly aware of the Hudson's Bay Company's mode of getting up theatrical matters. 4911. That letter is a letter on private business to a friend of his r Wilnvss. — Might I ask the question whether the friend is not the Secre- tary of the Hudson's Bay (Jcnnpany r — Yes. 4912. Mr. Christ}/.] Probiibiy this gentleman is, in a measure, under their influence? — Immensely; he can do anything they wish him. I could perhaps produce letters from Mr. M'Dermot which would rebut a great deal of that evidence, furnishing me with the very things which he now says I received from others. 40 1 3. Mr. Grofj/in.] You mentioned that after your a])plication, as Mr. M'lJeruiot's agent to the Ccmipimy, for payment of the over-freight, you were eini)loyed in the service of the Company ! — Afterwards. 4.) 14. In what years were you in the service of the Company ? — I was not in the service of the Company. 4915. Were you engaged by them? — I was engaged by the Company at the time the troops went out there to procure cattle and flour from the United States. 0.-24— Sess. 2. Mm 4916. Chairman.] Mr. J, M'LaUjtkiin. 11 Junt 18^7, ^\ ^74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. M'Laughlin. II June iB,";?. m^i\ 4016. Chairman.'] Do you mean that you had transactions with the Com- pany as a meroliant r — I had transactions which tliey would not, of (jourso have intrusted to me if they had not some little confidence in nie, and especially after a transaction of extorting money from them. 4(>i7. Were you in the transacition to which you have just referred, the ixir- chasing of cattle for the troops, employed by your imele Mr. .M'Dermot to do it, or were you employed by the (Jonii)iny .' — I had an interest in the matter; it was a joint transaction with my utuile and myself. 4qi8. Then you were not under the Company at all .'—I was not under the Company. I can show documents from the (Governor of the (.'omjjany. dis- tinctly etitrusting me, and writing to me on the subject {prodiiciny u l<'lti-r\ 4919. What is that letter: — 1 do not know; that is one of them ; I luivt a lot of them here. «102(). Mr. Clirhli).'] With respect to the spirits, a question was asked you whetlu'r you had not yourself ilealt in some spirits during the time tli.it \ou were in tlie Red Kiver Settlement. Are you aware whether the Com|)iinv M\ spirits to the Indians, or barter them in exchange for furs ? — 1 am not aware whether thi-y do so at present, but I know that in my time they did. 4(i2i. Of course, I am speaking with reference to your own knowledge ?— Yes. 4922. Was it a matter of notoriety that they exchanged spirits in barter (or furs .- — It was. 4()2;j. You have heard it over and over again asserted thai that was the enser — Yes. I have seen it myself; I have not only heard it asserted, but 1 have seen it. 4924. Are you aware that a considerable amount of spirits is imported in the ships of the Company every year?— I am not aware of the exact amount; I have never seen any official return. 4925. I think it has been given in evidence, that there were 4,900 and some odd gallons annually. Can you tell me what you suppose becomes of that quantity of spirits taken annually in the Company's ships ? — I should say a certain portion of it may be for the use of the servants in their employment, and the remainder for trade and traffic. 4926. Would you suppose that the quantity which I have mentioned was distributed equally over the year, or at any jjarticular period of the year -—I cannot possibly say how it is ; I have no means of knowing the internal arrange- ments of the C'oinpany. 4927. Can you give us any information from your own knowledge of how that quantity of spirits which it must be notorious is imported every year into the territory in the (.oinpany's ships is disposed of r — Wherever there is an opiKisition the greatest amount of spirits is used ; while on the Fembina at tiie time that .Mr. Kitson and the American Fur Company and the Hudson's Bay Company were in o])position, the li(|Uor was the principal item of goods which went out to supply the Indians to get the furs. 4928. Chuirinan.] You think 'that the sale of spirits increa-ses with compe- tition as a general rule?— Not with comj)etition, but with opposition. 4929. By competition I mean competition in the fur trade r — I think a general competition in the fur trade would not induce the diffusion of spirits ; I think that a single opposition might, where there are two monopolists fighting ajiainst each otiier, but where the country is thrown open to every one, I think not. 4930. \\ hy do you l)elieve that if the fur trade was generally t*'*own open to all the world it would not be conducted very nnich through the introduction of spirits?- 1 shotild think not; with two great monopoUsts such as the Xorth- wcRt Company and the Hudson's Hay Company, or the American Fur Cloinpany and the Hudson's Bay Company, they might bring those weapons to elasli iigainst each other, but I think that where it was general, the diffusion of spirits wotd Are you at all prepared to state where you think the line should be drawn dividinii the two countries, which you tliink should be treated on these different principles ? — Yes. 4 r;(). Where would you draw the line? — I would draw the line from the northern point of Lake W innijieg, from Norway House along by the southern branch of the Saskatchnwan to the Uocky Mountiins. 41137. I'uttiiig all (pustions of right and ehurter for the present out of consi- deration, do you think that it would bi cxpesible ; there is a key to the country, so that it would be an imiKissibility to introduce spirits into the country. There is a key wlii; h would lock up the entire ciiuntry, and prevent anything Hkc spirits being brought into it. 41)41. To what do \ou alUuU'? — i would allude to the jioint at Norv.ay House. I would allude to another |)oint where there could be a Government Commissioner to jirevent it, either at Norway House or at Fort William. With regard to the Americans, the s mu- rule applies now as would apply at any other time, because the Americans may come at present ; you cannot exclude them. But with regard to the Americans it is (juite different. I have travelled a good deal througii the entire Miiu'sota territory, and you never see or hear of spirits among them ; it is impossible. In their licence to trade they are so very par- ticular that they even search the carts, when they are going out, to see that no 0.24— Sess. 2. M M '2 spirits Mr. J.M'LaugUm. It June 1857 m^'^m i t: i n- ■ ; V !76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■I Mr. spirits shall go. I think I have here a copy of their licence to trade, which J. M'Laughlin. „jil show you that it is to that effect. 11 June 1857. 4942. What do you exactly mean by saying that you think that the territory to the north of the line which you have drawn should be still left in the management of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I suppose that I would allow them that for compensation for giving up the remainder. 4943. What advantages do you give tbem at all if you only say tl-t y may trade there as well as anybody else ; what do you mean by saying tli;. , ..u would give them the country in any sense, if you say that they may go there, but that anybody else may go there too? — I would permit them to have a licence ; but I would not permit them to have an exclusive right to the country. 4944. Then no licence of course would be necessary for that ; is it not so r— I do not know ; I do not know that their charter is so very valid as that. 494.'). Mr. Christy.] Do you think that if the trade was entirely thrown open the Hudson's Bay Company would, for a long period to come, have almost the exclusive control of it ? — I should think so, by the position which they are in. 4946. You t'aink that from their position, from the establishment of their forts, from thjir general organisation, and from the knowledge of them pos- sessed by tilt; native population of the country, they would still have the largest share of the trade, and almost the exclusive trade, in that northern portion of country which you say might for a time be handed over to them ? — Yes ; I think they have facilities which no others have. 4947. If the trade was entirely thrown open, that is your opinion ? — Yes ; I thinic that from the position which they hold at present, they could maintain it ; and it is only by competition, of course, that the Indians will receive any- thing like fair play. 4948. Chairman.] And you have no fear, as I understand you, that in the course of this competition spirits would be introduced, first of all by one party, and then in self defence, by the other, to the great injury of the Indians ? — Not the slightest. The key at Fort SVilliam and Norway House would prevent that from our territory. 4949. Mr. Chrisfi/.] How far have you travelled in this country west r — To the mouth of the 'lellowstone River. 49.')0. What is your general opinion with regard to that southern portion of the country of which you sjioke? — I think it is a very fine country, fit for coloniz. -.on. 4951. Mr. Grogan.j Yellowstone is in the States? — Yes, on the Missouri. 49,'ja. Mr. Christy.] Have you formed any opinion as to whether there could be a better mode of communication, either by water or in any other manner, formed in that country from Lake Superior to the west ? — I think that the old route which is at present pursued by the Hudson's Bay Company, and which was used by the North-west Company, could be very much improved. 49.53. Viscount Goderich.'] That is to say, the route by the Rainy Lake r— From the Lake of the Woods in that direction, and by Fort Alexander into Lake Winnipeg. 49.54. Mr. Edward EUice.] Have you ever been there yourself? — I have been more in the direction towards Red Lake. 405,5. But have you ever been in the country of which you were speaking ust now ?— I have never been in the route from Fort William except that I know the description of country. The principal portion of the country whicli I have travelled over, and which I know has been between St. Peter's and Lake Winnipeg, and then off again towards the Missouri, and that strip of country along the valley between the Saskatchawan and the 4yth parallel. 49.56. Mr. Grogan.] Have you travelled the route from the Red River Settle- ment to Lake .Superior yourself ? — Never that route. 49.57. Mr. Christy.] Will you explain to the Committee in what way you think there might be an improvement made in the water route ? — In getting over some of the portages. 4958. Are you aware whether the Company have done anything to improve tliein for a considerable length of time ?— They have done nothing to improve them ; it is not their object. 4959. But you think that they are capable of great improvement ? — So I am led SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 277 rsclf? — I have ?d River Settle- led to believe from every opportunity that I have had of knowing ; and I have of course been thrown into intimate communication with parties who have travelled that way often and continuously. 49()0. Viscount Goderkh.'] Have you yourself been on the Saskatchawan River ? — Never on the Saskatchawan ; never so far to the northward. 496 1 . I understood you to say that you would leave the country round the northern branch of that river in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — From that I would draw the line to the northward, and take the valley of the Saskatchawan. 4962. You took the southern branch, did you not ? — I did. 4()63. Tlien you would leave the northern branch of the river in the hands of the Company ? — Yos ; I mentioned the southern branch more as a boundary. 4964. Have you any reason to believe that the country in the neighbourhood of the northern branch of the river is not suited for cultivation and settlement ? — Yes, I believe it is suited for cultivation and settlement between the northern and the southern branch. 49r>,';. But you do not know anything of that country from your own know- ledge ? — Not from any personal knowledge. 49«)6. Mr. Christy.] While you were at the Red River Settlement what means had the settlers of knowing the regulations of the Company ? — By proclama- tions, those that have been read. 4967. Proclamation, such as we have had before us to-day, was the means of communication with the settlers by the council ? — Yes. 4968. And the only means r— The only means. 4969. Was the trade in the Red River Settlement like that of the Indian country, one exclusively of burter ? —No, they had a piiper currency. 4ti7o. Will you describe of what sort it was?— 'i'hey had a currency of a most peculiar character : the bills were from shillings to a pound ; they were at 60 days after date, if I am not mistaken, and were payable on the coast nearly 800 miles from Red Kiver, or in Londcm ; the fact of the matter is, that in one or two instances the Hudson's Bay Company threatened to withdraw these notes from circulatior. 497 1 . Was that in times l f excitement ? — In the times of excitement. 4972. With a view to putting down the excitement which existed? — With a view to preventing trafficking in furs and trading. 497.5. Was there an objection raised to that currency which was employed in the settlement ? — A very great objection on that very account, that bills of exchange had been refused to several of tlu ])artic8 who had been trading in furs, and also a premium of 5 per cent, had been placed on bills of exchange upon goods going to the United States. 4974. You have spoken of some circumstances connected with Mr. Thom, the recorder, were there any complaints of the administration of justice when you were in that settlement ? — Where an action lay between the Company and the settlers, of course there was want of faith that that administration would be "fFective, and the people very naturally were afraid to bring any actions or dis- putes, or anything like it. A97!)- Was that during the time that Mr. Thom was recorder ?— Yes. 4976. Was there a gener.d dissatisfaction with Mr. Tliom duriiiji^ the time that he was recorder? — So general that it was rather feared that he would receive some rougli treatment from the jjcople. 4977. Did he continue recorder of the court, and continue to exercise his functions as recorder of tlie court during the whole time that you were in the settlement ?— No, for a portion of the time ; a person was imprisoned for trading in furs, there was a trial about it, and the excitement was very great indeed. 4978. 11*^ ceased to be recorder at a certain period? — He ceased to be recorder, and I think he was clerk in his own court afterwards, if I remember rightly. 4979. Do you know why he ceased to be recorder of the court? — On account of the feeling of dislike which was abroad in the settlement against liim. 4980. Do you suppose that that feeling of dislike, which we have heard of several times, and which has been described as a complaint of the administra- 0.24— Sess. 2. M M 3 tioii Mr. r. M'LuugUin. 11 June 1857. ilil \ t ri 2-8 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKKN BE1-e : — I do ; I know his own case, where he was summoned for a debt, and he denied that he could be tried in his own court. That in a mea.sure might help to bring him into jiopular dislike. I do not like to introduce personal thing's like that. 40^7. Mr. GroganA Is that the case to which you have already alluded ?- It is. 4988. Mr. Christy.] Was he consulted by persons in the colony in reference to tlieir case before he adjudicated upon it r — I cannot speak of my own knowledge. 4989. Was it notorious ; you can speak from what was said ? — I have heard that such was the case. 4990. During the time that you were in the colony ? — Ves. 4119 1. Cliainiian.] But you do not know it? — I do not know it of my own knowledge. 4[)Q-2. Mr. Christi/.] Have you mixed much witii the half-breed race in the settlement ?~ A great deal. 4993. What is your opinion of them ? — Do you mean ])hysically or intel- lectually .' 4994. In any way that you choose to give the information to the Com- mittee ? — I think that physically' tiiey would be an improvement upon the breed in this country. 409-,. We will go to their honesty, respectability, and general intellectual charnVter? — I think that intellectuall}' they are not inferior to the whites ; they have risen, in fact, in a nmch greater ratio than the whites in lied River. 1 can refer 10 many of them in this country and in Canada wlio are in different pro- fessions as engineers and as dot^tors, and hi different other situations in life, and I citiinot ])oint to a single white man's son in Red River who has done the siune. 1 think that is a sufficient test. 49i'(>. Would ycu entertain any apprehension, in the event of the country being thrown open, of the half breed race disappearing? — Not the slightest. I rather think that they would .envo the otiiers in the shade ; tliat they wouUl have the prefionderanee ; that they wouhl intermix 4997. Can you tell us how they are regarded in the United States "-Tiie half-l)re('ds in the United States are equal with the whites in every possible way, and al)out St. Peter's, they hold very good positions and are the princiiml mereliants there. There is a.i-eservatiou of land always given to them by the Government. 499 H. Mr. Charles FilzwiUiam.'] Are those Red River half-breeds or United States half-breeds ?— I was speaking of the Red River half-breeds ; at present I have been speaking about those at St. Peter's. 4999. Are I have iieard SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 279 4999. Are those at St. Peter's American half-breeds or Red River half- breeds r — At St. Peter's they are American lialf-breeds. 5000. Mr. Christij.] Have you any knowledge of the amount of the exports of the country r—lif I might judge from one of their minutes ot council, it states that in 18:«5 or 183/ their entire outfit was 25,000 /. for the annual supply of the country ; and if 1 might refer to Captiiin Herd's evidence on Tuesday, it states that tlie amount received from the country in one vessel was not equal in bulk to the cargo wliicli went to supply the country. I think that that may be a pretty fair test to show the quantity which goes there. I can give u statement for several consecutive years of ttie profits of tiie Company. fiiioi. With reference to what was given in evidence by Captain Herd, who said that he thought that tallow did not form an item iu the export of the countrj , because he understood that it was all required at the Red River Settle- ment, what is your opinion with regard to that article as a product of the country r — It is an article a great deal of which could be got if there was an opening for the export of it ; but the Hudson's Hay Company have thrown cold water on it from the very commencement. I have a document with rejtard to this tallow which I would wisli to read : " Mr. M'Dennot and Mr. Sinclair determined to ship a quantity of tallow, provided tlie freight would admit of a profit, and accordingly applied to Mr. Finlayson on the subject, who informed them 8 /. would be the lowest possible price." That is the freight i)ei- ton. " Aware of the jealousy of the Company in that country, they at the same time applied privately to London, and received for answer," — (I give them all credit in London for being more humane, and wis'nin^^ to advance the interests of the colony more than I do the resident portion of the Company)— " ' that they (the Company) were very glad to find the people of Red River were thinking of such a thing, and would be very happy to encourage them in any manner.' At tlie same time they placed the freight at 2 /. per ton." Tliey then took advan- tage of this offer, and they shipped tallow and tongues to York Factory, for tiie i)urp()se of getting them out to England. They found to their astonish- ment that the ttJlow had not gone that year, the Conii)any making an excuse that there was no room in their ship. The .same thing occurred (a most ex- traordinary thing) the second year, and they found that it was jii.st done to throw cold water upon it ; and the consequence was that they had to sell their tallow and tongues to the Company at the price which they chose to give them for them. This destroyed the tallow and tongue trade, besides hides. ."iooa. I understand you to say that the tallow which was sent to York Fort in the expectation that it would be shipped to Lo.idon in the Company's ships at 2 /. a ton, remained until the following year ? — Yes. 5003. And tlie same occurred in the year succeeding that ? — Yes. 5004. What was the amount charged ? —The Company in Hudson's Bay charged 8 /., hut the Coiii]>any in London remitted it to 2 /., but however, they could never take advantage of thai very liberal offer. 5005. In consequence of the price being so high as 8/., it did not enter into the intention of the settlers at Red River to go into the trade ? — The freight would have been rather high. 5006. But when it became known that the Company in London were willing to reduce the freight to 2 /., they then entered into" the trade .'—They then entered into the traffic, and sent down their supplies which they would have carried out. 5007. Mr. Gro^an ] What might be the quantity of tallow on this transaction, howmany packages, or tons, or ewts. ? — I cannot speak from my own knowledge at this time of the exact amount ; it is now 8 or 10 years since ; it is impossible for me to remendier. 5008. Mr. C/irislj/.] Do you think that the trade of the Red River Settlement couhl be carried on through a route which was more expeditious than that of the Company's ships, and by Hudson's Bay ? — I think from Canada ; I do not conceive any difficulty at all in opening a way with Canada, especially now as the settlements are uj) to the Saalte St. Mary. I might mention, to show you how the Americans are working their way U|t in that direction, that I was the first person vvitli seven others who cut that entire route through the woods from the Missisaippi and from Crow Wing River, right through, th it is the route that is now used; and when I arrived at the Otter Tail Lake, the great majority of the Indians had never seen a horse before ; they were called the Pillagers among the 0.24 — Sess. 2. M M 4 woods ; Mr. J. M'LautiUin. 11 June 1857. .d^ i\i ^, 280 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. M'lMughliH. II June 1857. iiii woods ; they lived there, and now there is a settlement actually at the Otter Tnil Lake. 50op. Mr. 6'ro;'rtn.] What may be the price of land which the American Government charge to settlers then? ? — -A dollar and a quarter an acre. ."jOio. For the fee of it ?— For the fee of it. 50 11. What may be the price of land in the Red River? — Twelve shillings and sixpence, I suppose, on account of there being no market for the produce. 5012. You have spoken of a settlement being estabUshed ton the Otter Tail Lake, and you describe it as in the heart of the woods ; what outlet would there be for their produce there?— A connecting link by water from the Otter Toil Lake right into the Mississippi. ,5013. If the facilities of water communication were afiforded to the Red River, have you any doubt that the settlement would then go on as fast in that district as on the American side of the 49th degree r — 1 have no doubt, not from personal observation, but from the statements of others, that from Saulte St. Mary it would very soon fill up, if free grants of land were given for a time in a certain portion of the country. 5014. Have you been to Saulte St. Mary yourself? — No, I have never been there. ,'ioi,5. You mentioned to us, some time ago, something about the authorities in the Red River refusing to post and despatch letters unless they were delivered to them open and sealed in their presence r — Yes. 5016. Have you ever known any instance in which letters were opened by them ? — No ; I only know that some letters which I sent never reached their destination. 5017. They might have been lost on the route? — They might have been lost on the route ; I know that the letters were brought up open to the fort for the perusal of the Company at that time when the proclamation was issued. 5018. Did you ever know of any instances in which letters had been opened by them ? — Never. .5019. You spoke of the administration of civil justice by Mr. Thom, the recorder there ; did he administer criminal justice also ?— Criminal as well as civil. 5020. What might be the nature of the criminal justice ; was it little petty offences, and things of that kind r — There was an Indian hung while 1 was there. 5021 . Under order of the recorder of the place r — Yes. he passed sentence. 5022. W'hat was the offence?— Some Sioux came there to pay a visit, the grandfather of this Indian had been killed by the Sioux, and of course he considered, as all the Chip])ewas, and the Crees, and the Assiniboines do, that he was not under the jurisdiction of the Company, he retaliated in the mode that they do Indian warfare, and shot this Sioux, the same ball killing a Chippewa. .5023. And he was, hung for'that offence ? — Yes. 5024. That is the only instance within your knowledge in which capital punishment was inflicted there ? — The only one that I know frouj p(!rsonal knowledge. ,502/;. Mr. Chrislj/.] Do you know that the Company are bound under an Act of I'arliament to send all cases of capital punishment to be tried in Canada? — Yes, I am aware that they are hound in the sum of 5,000/., I think. 502(1. Do you suppose that that is known in the Red River Settlement ? — Perfectly well. ,';()27. Mr. Grogati.] How is it, then, that the colonists resident on the spot did not remonstrate against this execution ? — It is impossible for them to remonstrate there ; they are too niucii under the control of the Company ; the Company would stop the supplies. ,5028. .Mr. Grcgson.^ Was this man tried by a jury ' — He was tried by a jury, without any defence. 5029. Mr. Edward Ellicfi.'] There is no doubt that he shot the man? -The principal witness, Saycr, had first of all given in charge another Indian; certainly, if the man had had coimsel it might have been different. 5030. Mr. Grogan.] You spoke of an import duty on goods brought into the colony; was this duty impartially and universally levied on all goods?— There was a distinction between American and English goods. 5031. What iii at the Otter ive never been SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. a8i ,5031. What do you mean ? — A distinction in the way of duty. ,50.}-'. In the amount of duty ?— In the amount of duty. 50,33. There was a differential duty between goods coming from England and those coming from America ? — Yes. ,5034. But WHS that duty, whether differential or otherwise, levied equally and impartially on all goods coming from those respective countries ? — It was. 5ay the same duty up(m American goods as the others. 5037. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] What was the difference ? — The difference, I think, came under the same regulation as the English goods. 5038. What was that '. — Twenty per cent, in the one case, I think, and four per cent, in the other. 5039. Was 20 per cent, ever levied? — I believe it was. I cannot speak per- sonally fiom my own knowledge at present. 50411. Mr. Chrigtjf.^ Do you mean to say that a discrimination was exercised as to the amount of duty which should be levied under their tariff ? — Yes ; the fact of this petition will show it, and that parties protested at the same time when they paid this duty. 5041. Mr. Gregson.] Do you mean to say that 20 per cent, was charged in the one case, and only four per cent, in the other ? — I think so. .5042. Mr. Edward EUicc] Do you state that from your own knowledge ? — I can state that several parties paid this duty. It is very difficult for one at this time, eight or ten years afterwards, to remember all these things ; but it strikes me tliat either the Canadian tariff was levied, or else the 20 per cent. ; whether it was the Canadian tariff or tlie 20 per cent. I cannot clearly state, but 1 know that some parties paid the i'lnglish duties and other parties paid the Canadian duties upon the very same goods. ,5043. Mr. Groyan.] The duty on English goods being less than that charged on American goods, parties who introduced goods from America into the colony, provided that they were not suspected of trading in furs, got them at the reduced rate of duty ? — Yes. 5044. And other parties who may have been suspected of having traded in furs were charged a higher rate of duty • — Yes, which they i)aid under protest. 5045. Was that increased rate of duty imposed arbitrarily, or on the proof of their having traded in furs ? — Arbitrarily ; upon the mere fact of their being suspected. 5046. On the mere suspicion ? — Yes. .5047. Is there any very extensive amount of goods brought into the colony from America ? — Not a very large trade ; it is principally English goods which are used in the country. 504 8. Was there any large extent of goods imported from the American side into the colony ? — Not very large; nothing compared with the amount that the settlers got from I'.ngland. ,i04(). The principal supply of the colony comes from England? — Yes. .)050. Has any complaint ever been raised in the colony of an indequate supjjly of the most necessary goods ? — Ves, there have been complaints with regard to an insufficient supply of powder and ammunition, and some other articles, which the tJoinpany sent off to the other ports. .")(>.') I. For instance, when you were there yourself you got your goods from the Company ? — No : the goods came from either the United States or England. 50.52. You brought them out on your own account 5 — I brought them from the United States, and my uncle brought them from England. ,'io-,3. If they came from England they must have come by Hudson's Bay, I presume?— Yes. 5054. You gave us a copy of a proclamation some time ago, under which, in the case of parties who were licensed to trade, their goods being sent by the Company's ship to England, those goods were lial)le to be seized in the event of their violating the stipulation of the licence, namely, not to trade in furs ? — Yes. 5055. Do you know any instance in which those goods were so seized ? — I 0.24— Sess. 2. N N know Mr. /. M'Lauphlin. U June 1837. ■ 11 ,•: '-I ■ii i : ! ;|iii 383 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. know an instance in which the goods were not sent ; they were detained in J. M'LMngUi n. Lo,„jon . ti,e order was not complied "ith. 50')6. Do you know of any instance in which they \'- i ■ confiscated bv the 1 1 Jun. ,857. Company ?-I do not. <;os7. Mr, Charles FitzwllUam.] Have you a copy of lao Ainerican lieeiicc to trade ? —I have. {The Witnesa delivered in the same, which w as follows .] Know nil mrn by these presents that we, are held and tinnly bound unto the United SinteH of America, in the sum of dollars, Jawlul money of tlie United Slates, to the payment of «hich, well and truly to be made, we bind ourielvta iind eacli of us, our heirs, executors, and ailiinnisiriitors jointly and severally, firmly by these presents!. Sealed with our seals, uud diittd tlnj day of , One thousand, eight liundred and The condition of this obligation is such, that wherrax of Indian affairs, at Imih this diiy grunted to the said a license to trade at the place designated for carrying on trade with the Now, if the said shall faithfully perform all the duties which arise from the laws and regulations which now are or hereafter shall be made for the gnvern- ment of trade, and intercourse wiih the Indian tribet; it' not citizen or subject of a foiviun power; if shall not carry among ilie Indians any uniform clothing other than that of the United States, imr medals, flags, armbands, or other orniinunts of dress, bearing; the figures, devices, or emblems of any foreign power; it ha given to the superintendent a correct invoice of tlie mer- chandise which take with ; if shall not give to any Indian, nor Hell to, vend, nor diktribute spirituous liquors with the Indians, nor suffer any of clerks, engagees, or boatmen, to give to, sell, vend, convey, or distribute any spirituous liquors to or with the Indians; and if shall trade at the aforesaid trading estab- lishment, and no other place, and shall in all respects aci conformably with the licence granted this day, then this obligation to be void; else to remain in full force and virtue. Signed and sealed in presence of (l. b.) (L. S.) (L. S.) iiilM i , i 5058. Mr. Christjf.l Will you answer this question, as far as you are able to do so, from your own knowledge ; do you think that the Indians are adequately paid by the Company 's tariff for tlie goods which are furnished to the Company in Hudson's Bay? — I do not; I think that tltey are very inadequately paid; that there is no comparison between the tariff of the Aiiieritums and the tariff of the Hudson's liay Coiiipahy, .'o.'iQ. From your having yourself bought furs from the Indians, and knowing something of the trade, you are able to give that opinion as respects the value which you would believe might be given lor the furs which the Indians pro- duce ? — Yes ; I know that I have myself given more tlian 100 per cent, more than the Hudson's Hay Company ; and this document would show even tlu- payment in cash of a contract that I made for furs with the American Fur Company to sell them furs. 5060. Mr. Edward Ellici:.] That was when you were illeg.illy trading in the country r — It was when I was legally trafficking there. ,50f)i. In tlie territory of the liudson's Bay Company: — Yes. .5062. Your traffic would lie against the iicence granted by the Crown?— I was not aware of any such ; I went there as a British subject, and I considered that in a British colony, the veiy fact of establishing a British colony extin- guished anything like chartered privileges. This paper shows the difference between tne American prices and the Hudson's Bay prices (handing a paper to Mr. (Jhritty). 50t.'3. Vhuiniian.'] Does it relate to exactly the same quality of furs • — The same quality of furs. -,oi).l. Mr. Edward fUlice.] In what locally? — This contract was made at Fort Union, upon the Missouri. is day grunted to the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSONT, HAY COMPANY, 383 5()t),'",. Do the prices wliioli were puid in tliat ewe by the Hudson's Bay Coin- Mr. paiiy nlntf to the snnie locnlity us tlie prices Wk\ich were paid by tlie Aineri- •'• ^^^H^"' cuiis ? — Tlie same locahty. ■rwiiji InRI 11 June 1857. [IVic f fitness ddivercd in tliv Pai)cr, which is as follows ;] Messrs. M'Dbriiiot uiul M'Laughliii. UL'iiilcmeii, For'. Union, 14 Marcii 1845. Is nccordnni-c wiili itii iinderi4tiinding made tliis day with your Mr. John M'Laughhn, I liiivc agreed lo receive troiii yoii hII the furii, kc, yon niny col'ect, of the dcflcription and at I 111' Jii'iets annexed, and to furnish you with 10 boxes gord nicrchantahle tubacco, in buxes 0 Ihg. each, tit (he rate nt' la e. (fifteen eents) per b., in phiga of ci^'ht to the poinid, d' to be procured conveniently. Mr. M'Laughlin io no) prepared to make a pooitive arran|:enient until he has u^ain consulted with you ; and m the event of your being di!|iu>e(l to curry 8uch into elFect, it ia unileriilood that you are to fend an express to St. i'uter'rt, >o UH to rc.ich St- Lnuis in June next, Htating wliere you intend efltnolishing posti), and all other ntcessary particidars, when u regular coiiiruct will be made out, and ibrwarded to you. The expense* of the mcssenfrer from St. Petci'u to St. Louis and back, will be defrayed by the Coini)aiiy ; but it is understood that the trade is to he carried on witli the Indians now north of the river La Souri; tlie trade to be made in the name of I*. Choteuu, jnn,, Sc Co. Uespectfully, your obedient servant, (itigued) A'. Mackenzie, Otter nkins Fisher skms Martin skins Mink skins Lvnx skins Wild cat skins ■ Miok rat skins, prime BiHck bear skins Black cnh skins Brown beai' skins Brown cub skins P H1CE8 of Furs. Amortcan Fnr Huilion'i Bajr American Fur Hudion'a Bajr Comp »ny. Company. Company. Company. I C. ,. ,/. ! $. c. «. d. - 3 50 - - - Seasonable robes . 2 fiU . - S - - - - •2 _ Summer lobes . 1 •25 - -■I will not - . take Ih.J them. - 1 7.'> - - .T _ Yearlinvj robes . - 75 - . - 40 - - - 10 Pnrehnient skins . - 10 per - - - 2 - Wolfskins - - 75 - - 2 - - _ 40 — Red fox skins - . 1 - . - 2 - e - 10 • - - 3 Cross 'ox skins - 3 - . - 4 - - 3 50 - - 7 - Silver fox skins - 15 - - - 10 - 2 - - - 4 - Prairie or Kilt fox - - 25 — - 4 .50 - - 7 - Beaver - • 3 •25 - - fl - - 2 .->o - . •2 _ ally trading in the 5006. Mr. Christy.'l From your own knowledge, assuming that you have yourself traded in furs within the limits of the exclusive territory of the Hudson's Bay Compuny, do you believe that the low price of which you have spoken, given to the Indians as a remuneration for their hunting, is productive of this ilUcit trade, or smuggling trade, as we may say r — I think so naturally ; it is the very great remuneration which induces it. .Sody. Do you think then that the furs are better paid for, nt a higher rate by those persons who obtain them illegally, if I may use the term, or contrary to the proclamation of the Hudson's Bay Company, than those of which the Com- pany possess themselves r — Invariably ; they pay more to get them. .V'tiS. Just explain that ? — They invariably pay more for their furs to the Indians so as to procure them at a certain price ; and that which they can sell them at is quite enough for their venture. .'jOlii). Mr. Grogan.] Are the half-breeds at the Red River Settlement aware of that difference in price for the furs as paid by the Hudson's Bay Company and tile American Companies ? — Tliey are perfectly aware of it. .')07t>. Is it to that knowledge that is any way to be imputed tiie dissatisfac- tion (the ferment, I think, was the word which you used), which has prevailed in the colony at times ? — Tliat is one of the causes ; that and prohibiting them altogether from adopting that mode of traffic. 5071. Are the native Indians aware of that difference? — They are; and whenever they can get an opportunity they sell their furs at the outposts. 5072. Chairman.] Has the American Fur Company any exclusive privileges 0.24— Sess. 2. N N 2 of aM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■i .iu iiiiiii M,_ of any kind ? — No ; any person can get a licence who can get Bufficient security /. M'LoHghHn. with regard to Hpirituous liquors. T)"?.!- tJan any American cnKnge in the fur trade without belonging to the II Junt 1857. Auicricun Fur Trade Company ) — Any American can do so. ,')074. A licence is given to every one who applies who will comply with the tenns of the licence ?— Yes. .'i*'?.')- Hy whom \* that licence given r — By an Indian ( 'ommissioner appointed for the purpose at the different points. Then- is one at Fort Snelling, another oif on the iVlisHouri, and soon, taking the line of Indian country. 5070. Do those commissioners act under the general (jiovernment, or under the State Government r — Under the general Government. .V77- Air- Chi'iilt/.] Do you think thatwiierean unrestricted trade is carried on, the barter consists improperly of spirits ; I am speaking now of the American Fur Company r— I think tliat very little spirits get into the American territory at all ; I have travelled a good deal among them, and been at their posts, and at different places among tlu^ Indians, and I never saw spirits yet amom; the Americans. ,507b. Do you believe in the statement which has been frequently made, that a greater amount of spirits is given in exchange for furs on the American side of the boundary, than is given on the northern or Hudson's Ray side of the boundary 5 — I think much more is given by the Hudson's Bay Company in the district of country which I am acquainted with : of course I could not speak outside of a certain point. I could not speak of the westward of the Missouri, but I could speak of that portion of the country from Lake Superior to the Missouri. ,5079. I do not want any com])arison in this question which I am putting to you, but I want an impartial opinion if I can obtain one, based upon your own knowledge ; I understand you to say, that where the trade is unrestricted, the improper use of spirits does not exist as a matter of barter for furs ? — It does not exist in that portion of the country which I am acquainted with in the Indian territory. 50S0. Chairman.] Are you at all cognisant of the warfare of a very destruc- tive character which has been carried on between the white man and the red man during the Inst few years, in the territory of the United States ?— I am perfectly aware of it ; it has not been occasioned by the fur trafficking, but by travelling to California ; it has not been in the fur countries. 1081. In what way liiis it been occasioned by the travelling to California? - By so many different cliaracters going across and getting into conflict with the Indians; doing many things to insult them; but it is very seldom that such contests have occurred in my time. An occasional case has occurred, of course. .5082. Where do you mean ; in the United States?— I mean in the United States ; you must travel through a great portion of the United States, when you are leaving the Red River, to reach St. Peter's. ,5083. Those scenes of bloodshed and carnage have been of a very shocking description, have they not ? — So I understand, in the route to California. ,"5084. .And they have spread very extensively through the Indian tribes in that district, have they not? — I dare say they have. ,5085. During all that time there has been perfect peace on our side of the frontier, has there not ? — There has not been the same sort of traffic ; the country has not been opened to the Oregon territorj' through our country, and the tribes are of n different description entirely. They are rather a peaceable race. All those Indians northward are quite a different race from the Black Feet, or tlie Mandans, or the Sesutorie, Sioux, or any of those tribes. The Chippewas are as peaceable a race as possibly can be in the American territory about Minesota. The Sioux, immediately in the district of Lacque Parle, and about there, are a very peaceable race, and there is no danger to be apprehended from them. .5086. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Are you aware of the bloodshed which has lately been taking place in Minesota ? — I am not aware. I have not had m'-..,ii communication latterly with it. 5087. Chmiinan.'\ Have you no apprehension that if white men of all cha- racters and descri|)tions were allowed indiscriminately to trade with the Indians throughout the whole of this extensive territory, there might arise disputes and causes SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 38.5 oauHCii of quarrel between them nnd the Indians wliich might lead to very (lisiistrouH reHiiltB of the HOine deseriptinn ■— I think not, by proper legislation. /ioSH. You think that, even under those circumstanceM, it would be possible to devise a system whieh would maintain law and order throughout the whole of that immense territory f — I think it could be done easily froni the Red River point. 5089. In what way, starting from the lied River pctint, would you devise a Kystem whieh would maintain law and order under the circumstances which I hnve mentioned, through the whole of that enormous territory i — You cannot settle that (lountry in a day ; it must be done griidually. Any settlement from Canada must come up naturally, and very gradually indeed. 5000. I am speaking of a state of things in whicli, without settlement, there woukl be fur traders scattered throughout the whole of this jrountry, subject to no responsibility except their own individual responsibility? — I apprehend no such thing if it were only from the traders ; if it were open to com|)etition with every one. I might if there were two powerful companies pitted against each other. 5091. Why should not the same t^fFocts be produced in Canada which you have stated were produced in the United States when the travellers to California not among tiio Indians r — On account of the difference of race. .'',092. I^o you mean the difference of raire of the Indians ? — Yes. 5ot)3. \)o you think that the Indians to the north are not so warlike, ond not so likely to resent injury, as the Indians in the United States?— No; they ore entirely a different race of Indians. .5094. Are not some of the northern Indians of a very warlike character r— No, except a portion of the Assiniboines, who sometimes come in contact with the Sioux, or Block Feet ; the others are very peaceable. With regard to the whites they live in ijerfect terms of peace. 5095. .Mr. Groi^an.'] Was there any feeling in the colony when you were there in respect to American citizens coming and squatting on tlie English pround?— No; at that time Pembina was not settled. When I was there there was notliing but a mere trading post. But uo doubt, if the country is not in some way or other under the control of the British Government, it will be the cose. 5oo(i. Do you know anything about the west side of the Rocky Mountains ; have you been there ? — I know nothing of the country to the westward of the Rocky Mountains. Mr. J. M'Laughlin. II Jane iHa7> S-* Luna, 15* die Junii, 1867- MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Bliickburn. 1 Mr. Cliiisiy. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. CImilcs Fiizwilliaiii. Viscount (iiidericli. Mr. Grfgson. Mr. Groijan, Mr. Kiniitiird. Mr. Labouciiere. Mr. Lowt'. Mr. Mutheson. Sir John Pakiiigton. Mr. Rut buck. Viscount Saiidon. The Right Hon. IIENr.Y LABOUCHERE in the Chair. Richard Blanshard, Esquire, called in ; and Examined. ■jog;. Chainntin.] I believe you have had opportunities of becoming ac- B..Blanthard,?.i\. quainted with Vancouver's Island? — 1 was there nearly two years. ,50()8. In what capacity ? — I was Governor. 15 June 18^7. 5099. Were you the first Governor ? — I was the first Governor. 5100. By whom were you appointed? — By Her Majesty. J 10 1. At what time was that? — I left England in 1849. 0.24 — Sess. 2. N N 3 5102. Was aRrt MINUTE8 OF i:\ IDENCE TAKEN HEFOUE THE Ji. liluniAard,Un\. ¥0m It- ,^a. m mm la June 1857. ;, itij. Wn^ VHiicouvt'r'H IhIhikI iil that tiiiir in any iiianiti-r ouniitM-tcd with the IIikImiii'h Hay C'oiupany :— The grant tu llie lluiiitun'ii bay Ctnnpany 1 thiuk ii ilatt'tl in IH4H. -, iti;}. S«) that you WIT*' tiu- tirHt (iovrmor of Vanrouvor's Inland nfier that grant - — I wum ; tlwrc wan ttonit' di'lay i l)«-li<>v«> in appuinting a (iovi-rnor. 5104. Vou ftay tliat you wvrv appoinlrd iiy th*- Crown ; in what rrlatinn did yoxx runccivv yuurmlf to ittiuul to tht* lludttuuK Kay Company ?— In none wlmt- ev»r. 5IO/-,. Wliat wa« your inipreHHion of tlie soil and (;liinat(> of Vancouver'B Ishuid, witli reference to itM udaptution for tlie purposes ot Hettlenient f — My ini])reKtii(in was that it wim very t«ell adapted for an Englisit itettlunient. The eliniate was very good and ver) temperate, and it Meenied to he neither Huhjeet to the e.xtieuies of heut imr of eolil. A great |H)rtion of the Hoii Heemed to be very fertiU- ; there wn« a gciod (U'ai of roi:k ; there was a high range of rocl(y niountuiiiH in the eeutru of the inhmd. The eautern part of tlie iHland, eijw- ciuliy next the Anu-riian contiikent, u very well adapted for eultivation. 510(1. It is well covered witli tiiuher, 1 believer — It is. 5 107, Fine timber .' — Lairge pines principally ; there is a little oak, but I fancy there is very little. .Sit'S. Did you go much about the island while - 1 v'<:rtj tl pre ? — Not a very great deal. 5109. Ib it difficult to travel in the island- -Very difficult; there were nu facilities for travelling except by canoes ; the i<>n i> wert! exceedingly thick, and very little was known of the ipterior. .^110. Uo you mean that it is a sort ^l j'li'gle diiKcult tu get through ? — Ttie pine forests are tilled with uiuiervvood aii t oramblea. 5,111. Did you at all visit the adjacent counir) ou the main land? — Only once; that wa-s at Niscpially, in the I'nited States territory. .Ml a. Do you know the rountry about Frazer's Iliver ? — No, I never wa.s tliere. 5 1 1 3. Did you h«ai- enough of that country to be able to express any decided opinion of its capabilities for settlemt nt. : - I have heard it very highly spoken of by everybody who has l)een there, as being extremely fertile, and a soil of much the same quality as in Vancouver's Island. 51 14. What were the number of European settlers in Vancouver's Island at the period when you left it r — Of bonii Jide settlers, 1 sujjpose, about 30 51 1 -, 1^0 you mean including the servants of the Muditon's Bay Company? — No, without including the servants of the Hudson's Hay Company ; 1 mean t)( ople who were settled there, or servants of the (.'ompany who had purchased and. 1 1 1 o. Were there none of those who were actually in the service of thi; Hudson's Hay Company at that time who occupied land there?- Very few. ."i!!;. What is the disposition and character of the Indians in Vancouver's Island '. — They are principally what you may call fishing Indians ; they arc a very low degraded race ; very few of tliem arc hunters. ."i 1 I S. What are their means of subsistence ' — Principally fishing. .51111. The fisheries are very abmuiant I imagine "' — The fisheries are very abundant there. The means which the Indians have of taking fish arc ■ \trciiiel\ rude ; very dumsv hoots and lines ; but still they get a v«'ry large supply of tish. ', ii(». What ; c '].v fisl. which they catch?- Salmon, halibut hcrrinu:s. and a fish called *1"» .. ' I ; f , which i^ much the same !is the pilchard. ,', I-!. Had y "I j 7 (j^nunity of k. lining an opinion of the productivciio- of tiie coal mint aol v uncouver's Island .' — The coal miiu's which are now worked at Naiiaimo were not discovered while I was there ; there was a ^inall «iuaiitity found iij) at Fort Rui)ert, and son.e miners were sent out ; hut tin; account- whit h iiad been sent to England of these coal mines were so vcr\ much v\:\%- {^eratcd that they soon gave over working them ; the coal, wiircli had l)etii reported to be three feet thick, was in reality only about li or Ui iiichfs; it had been found cropping out of a bank, and the Indians iiad du^ out sniall quantities with their axes, with very great labour. 51 J J. To what do you attribute the very limited resort of settlers to \m\- couver's Island, which took place while you were there ? — I think, in a great measure, to the restrictions which there were upon their obtaining land. 5 1 23. What was the nature of those restrictions ? — ^The high price. 5124. What SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 287 5124. What wan tlic price? — A pound nn ncrf. aiiT}- I" 'n)t I /■ "II iKTc tlic pric*' gciu'rally chiirircd for Iniul in tlu' rolonlnl poMACMionii nf Knfjliind ?--It is in •'ome pnrtx ; I Ix'tltv*- it iit in Hdiiif jmrtx of Australia; but it i<« not no in Canada or in N(*w HriiiiNwirk. ^ij(i. Do you think that a low price of liiml, as a g<'n«'rnl nystpm, U ndvnn- tajii'ouB to a colony r — IVrhaps hardly so low an if is sold in s(»me of the North American colonics ; hut still I /. un acre is ven liij^h. lHcaui*c it \n far nixlicr than it is 8ohi in the Unitcil NtnteH iinniediatch udjoiniu^. SI 27. Mr. Grofiiin.] Can you state the mtc nt whi' '' i-he land is «old in the ''nit"(l States .' They were making fru' i{ranttt in Oft. •«, '(US. Visvount Goi/enrh.] You Kay that one of twe j?n»at obstructions to settlriiu,,! was tlie price of land; wcir there any other difficulties besides the price in the way of obtaining larid in X'ancouver's Island '—There was also a condition iti the land sale >■ That every pun haser of 100 acres shonld briiiuf out five li ')»«irers from Fnglnnd, whinh of couise to i>coplc who purchnse it on the spot in an iii^np rablc liar. r,i2u. Were llicrc taom California, could he obtain that infomuition with facility?— No, I really \<> not know where he wouhl have ()btuin«'d it. '■,130. Did yoti ever hear ot any instances of difficulties ' that t. ul-- Yes; I reiuemher that a man (rami- from California who had been ifgin^ there; he wa.s an Englishman, from some part of Cheshire ; I think hi ame ^:\% Cham- berlain, if I recollect rightly. .5131. Mr. Kdwnrd KlU'cf..^ Chancellor.— fUiance or ; his u'c ' <\ quite escaped me. He said tluit hf had been iligging wiili a part\ if Kng ■'hmen, 15 JUM 1857. upuu what ning tliere leine then- ■ to l)tain who were still in California, and that they had sent him tw km; terms land was to l)e got in \ couver's Island, with the idea < and settling; that they wished o remain as British subjects. Af for about a week he came to m and said that he was quite m any information of any kind. 5132. Mr. Roebuck.] Was thei any survey of the island, or tv any part of the island f — 1 believe some portii n of it has be en surveyed since. 5133. But was there any when )u were there?— Very little; th ; ad been a survey of tlieir own claim, comm^ need by the Hudson's Bay (/'ona, sy. 5134. What (h) you mean by a ' survey of their owti claim"?— T -re WM a portion of land which they marked out which was clanmed by then l^es. I think it was supposed to contain 10 -qniire miles. SiSV In what part of the island v us that?— Round Fort Victoria. ■iiSti. And that they claimed as tl: Ir own property? — That they cuiuied as their own property. .•i'S?- I thought that all the island was conceded to them? — Tni.' Hut then it was on condition of selling tlv land ; this they claimed as thew »n reserve. 5138. And this they would not sell -—This tliey did not intend to sell. 5139. They would not sell it? -They would not sell it. ,5140. Was that round any part w'nie \ was settled? — It was where the only settlement was except at Fort Kupert. 5141. And they refused entirely to sel that land ?— They refused to sell it. 5142. Was that no ol)8truction to colouisation ? — I should say that it was a very great one. .5143. Mr. Groi(an.\ Was there any money paid to the Colaiiial Exchequer for that ten miles of land l)y the Company? — I do not know whether any lias been paid since ; there was none paid at the time, ,5144. At the time of which you speak, the Company* exercised the right of not selling any part of that land, or allowin^j any settler to purchase it? — Yes. 5145. Were tliere any of their own servants located on that ten miles ? — Yes, two or three. 5146. Did they purchase the land from the Company ?—Tliat I really cannot tell. I never heard of any money being pai<.'. ,5147. Mr. llnebuch.'] Have you a copy of your commission; I suppose you had a commission ?— I lost all my papers coming home, in the River Chardress ; they were under water for several hours. I still have the parchment of my 0.24— Sess. 2. N N 4 commission. ,.'■'•(■ •j8S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE jy. Ulanaard, E«q . Commission, but it is illegible. Office. 1 imagine that there are copies in the Colonial I j June 1857. 5 '48. Viscount 6'«rfmcA.] What salary did you receive from the Company ns Governor of Vancouver's Isliiml ; — None whatever. 5149. Did you receive no remuneration for your services in that capacity? — Nothing whatever. I was promis»'d 1 ,000 acres of land when I went out. 5150. Mr. Roebuck.] By whom? — By Sir John Pelly, who was then the Go- vernor of the Hudson's Bay Company. When I was leaving the island, a servant, who had gone with me from England, was rather anxious to remain there as a settler, and I claimed 100 acres of those 1,000 acres. Mr. Douglas, who was the agent for the land there, nominally evaded giving me any kind of title to it, and said that I should get it more easily settled in England. The Hudson's Bay Company declined to make it over to me, and said that those 1,000 acres of land were merely intended for the Governor for the time being. £151. So that he was to enjoy the wild waste while he lived there ? — Exactly 30. 5152. And to get no property in the land? — Yes. 5 '53. Were you given to understand that when you went there? — No, cer- tainly not, because Sir John Pelly had told me that I might select such por- tions of land as I thought would turn out valuable, and that they would sell advantsigeously. 5 1 54. Have you any evidence that Sir John Pelly said that : have you any writing ? — It is merely what passed between him and myself. 51.55. He did not put it upon paper? — He did not. 5156. Had you any salary from the Crown r — None whatever; the charter to the Hudson's Bay Company provided that they should pay all civil and miUtary expenses. 5157. Had you no salary from the Hudson's Bay Company? — None what- ever. 51 58. So that you passed your two years there and got nothing by it? — Nothing whatever. All that I ever received from the Hudson's Bay Company was 1 73 /. for my passage out there, and it cost me about 300 /. 51,59. Did anybody pay your passage back?— I had a free passage as far as San Francisco by a sloop of war ; the rest of the passage was at my own expense. 5i()0. C/iaimian.] Do you mean that you accepted the governorship of this colony, with the understanding that you were to get nothing whatever for your services in that respect ? — Nothing at the first beginning. 1 was certainly led to believe that colonial settlers would flock out there ; that all facilities would be given to them ; and that of cours-e as the colony increased a civil list would be formed ; that the land sales and the royalties on the coal would produce a considerable colonial revenue. 5 rfii. Mr. Groijan.] And those expectations, with the grant of 1,000 acres of land, to be selected by yourself, \tere your inducements for going to the colony ? — Just so, and moreover I .ilso hoped that my services would be considered by Her Majesty's Government afterwards. 5i(l2. Viscount Goderic/i.] Did you find living there cheap or dear?— It cost me as nearly as possible 1,100/. a year to live there; the price of everything was rei^ulated by th.it in California, and as the gold fever was then at its height, living tlicre was of course extremely exjumsive. 5163. I believe that the Hudson's Bay Company's servants receive tiicir goods at a clieaper rate than the rest of the colony, do tliey not?--I think they had three several jmces in the Hudson's Bay Company's stores at that time, one for the superior officers of the Company, anotlier for the servants, and a third, which they called their cash price, at whicli they sold the goods to settlers. 5 1(»4. Can you statu to the Committee the difference between those three prices ? — Tlie officers received their gools at 33 per cent, increase up.)n the cost jjrice, the servants and interior officers varying from 50 to 100, and the cash price was n-gulated l)y the price in California, as nearly as they could do it. •-,16',. How much was that?— (ienerally about 'M)0 per cent. .', lOtJ. You being (jovenior of Vancouver's Island, at which of those prices did you purchase your goods? — At the cash price, as a stranger. 51(17. That is at about 300 per cent, over the cost price? — Yes. 51 ('8. Chairman.] Do you think that the gold fields in California had nothing in the Colonial .' — None what- ■alifornia luid SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. jSg nothiiii,' to do with preventing settlers from going to Vancouver's Island, who B. Blamkard, Esq. uiiglit otherwise have gone there ? — 1 doubt it very much. - liOlJ. Why so?— I think that there were a ijreat many Englishmen in 15 June 1857. California, who after they had c^iUeeted a little gold there, would have flocked over to Vancouver's Island, as settlers, wishing to remain IJritish subjects. ,5170. Mr. Christi/.] Do you think that the discouraging accounts which came to this country from Vancouver's Island, soon after your going there, materially operated against the colonisation of that island ?— I never heard of it. 5171. Do you think that the accounts which were known in England, perha])s from yourself, and from other people, did not operate as a discourage- ment to persons going out to settle in Vancouver's Island ? — I hardly think so ; they may have done so, certainly. ,517.'. Mr. Grocian.] I understood you to say that a gentleman of the name of Chancellor came to Vancouver's Inland, on the part of some Englishmen, to look for land ? — That was his account. .'■,173. And he failed to get any information sufficiently satisfactory to warrant their going there as English settlers - — Yes. ,'•,174. Was not that a discouragement to those settlers, or would-be settlers, to go there ?— He went back to CaUfornia, and I apprehend that he would carry that aci'ount with him. 5175. I understand your answer then to be that you are not aware that i\\\ (liscouraging acxounts from Vancouver's Island discouraged settlers from this country ? — Yes. ,51 7f>. Mr. Christy.'] Tiiat did not come within your knowledge at all ? — That is so. ',177. Living there, you did not hep ;f it ? — Just so. ."it 7 8. Viscount Godtrich.] Might not you, when you found that you paid this large per-centage upon goods, have exported goods yourself from England in the lludsons Bay Company's ships? — I believe that nominally I might have (lone so, but still there was great difficulty about it, because my agents in London found that tlu^y could never ascertain at what time the Hudson's Bay Coin))any's ship sailed. .5179. Did they take any pains to ascertain it? — By inquiry at the Hudson's Bay House, where they were promised that t'ney should have due notice of the ships as they sailed, and the next thing they generally heard was that the ship had gone. That haijjiened on two occasions, and as the ships did not go very often, mis-sing two ships running was rather a serious thing to a man who depended for his sujjplies upon England. ,5180. Mr. Rotlnick.\ By what Colonial Minister were you appointed Go- vernor r — liy Lord Grey. ,5181. What previous knowledge had you of colonisation or colonial govern- ment - — I had been in one or two of the West India islands ; I had been in British Honduras, and I had been in India. ■,182. And upon tlie ground of the experience which you there gained, you thought that you could make a good Governor of Vancouver's Island ? — I saw no reason to believe the contrary. ^iS;]. When you got to Vancouver's island, had you anything to do?— Very little indeed, except to regulate the disputes between the Hudson's Bay Com- pany's officers and their servants. 518.). So that, in fact, as far as government was concerned, you had no dutit s to perforin ? — None whatever, except as an ordinary magistrate, to decide the disputes between the Hudson's Bay Company's officers and servants. .'jiS'j. Were there many of those disputes .' — A great many. 5i8t). On what ground r — Discontent among the servants. ,'5187. At being ill-treated by the Company'.' — They considered themselves ill-treated ; that they had been brought out there under a delusion, and had been ])roniised many things which were not fulfilled. ,'ii88. Did you investigate those co/nplaints ? — Yes. .SiS;). Did you find them at all well founded? — Some were, and some were not ; there was a great 'leal of dissatisfaction among the people. [)\i)u. ^Vas it well grounded ? — A good many complaints were. ,5i()i. What was the sort of complaints; did they say that they were pro- mised land ? — No, they were not pronused land, but they were promised a great many comforts and conveniences, and were led to expect a far more com- 0.24 — Sess. 2. I'ortable Jffc I . ^ ! ugo MINUTES OF P:V1DENCE TAKEN BEFOHE THE :'iii!!i ftl ■h:! '-\-| \Aii\l R. Bldiuhard, lisq. fortable life, iind higher wages than they received; l)ut still they were all fhere under agreement. 1,'-, June 1857. r, I ijj. jso that, in fact, it was no colony at all ? — It was nothing more than a fur trading post, or very Httle more. ."^HjJ. Was there any fur hunting on the island ? — Very little indeed. .5194. Is the island capable of bearing wild animals fit for hunting ? — There is a go('liticai iiuture wilt cause a contest between the agents of the Company and the col<>nist>. Many nmtleis of a judicial nature also, will, undoubtedlv, arise in »hich the colonists and the Company (or its servants) will be contending parties, or the upper servants and the lower servants of the Company will be arrayed against each other. We beg to express in tlie must emphatical and plainest manner, our assurance that impartial decisions cannot be expected from a Governor, wlio is not only a member of the Company, siiaring its profits, liis share of such profits rising and fiilling us they lise and fnll, but is also charged as their chief agent with the sole ri;presentation of thi-ir trading interests in this island and the udjucent coasts. Furthermore, thus situated, the colony will huve no secuiity that its public funds will be duly disposed of solely for the benefit of the colony in general, and not turned aside in any degree to be applied to the private purposes of the Company, hy disproportionate sums being devoted to the improvement of that tract of land held by them, or otherwise unduly employed. Under these circumstances, we beg to acquaint your Excellency wilh our deep sense of the absolute necessity there is, for the real good and welfare of the colony, that a council should be iamiediately appointed, in order to provide some security that the interests of the Hudson's Bay Company slifU not be allowed to outweigh and ruin those of the colony in general. We, who join in fexpressing these sentiments to vour Excellency are unfortunately but a very small number, but we respectfully beg your Excellency to consider that we, and we alone, represent the interests of the island as a free and independent British colony, for we constitute the whole, body of the independent setters, all the other inhabitants being in snine way or other so connected with and controlled by the Hndson's Bay Company, as to be deprived of freedom of action in all matters relating to the public afiiiirs of the colony, some indeed by their own confession, as nniy be proved if necessary. And we further allege our firm persuasion, that the untoward mflnences to winch we have adverted above aie likely, if entirely unguarded against, not only to prevent any increase of free and inde- pendent colonists in the island, but positively to diminish tlieii present numbers. We therefore humbly recjucst your Excelleney to tike into your gracious consideration the propriety of appointint; a Council before your Excellency's departure, such being the most anxious and earnest desire of ycmr Kxcellency's most obedient and humble servants, ai\d Her Majesty's i-iost devoted ami loyal subjects. (signed) James Yules, Landowner. Robert Joliu Staines, Trinity Hall, Cambridge, Chaplain to the Honourable Hudson's Bay Company. James Cooper, Merchant and Landowner. T/wtniis Monroe, Lessee of Captain Giant's Land at 8ooke. William M'Doiia/d, Carpenter and Householder. .lames Songster, iSettler. John Mvir, sen.. Settler, Sioke. Williiim Eraser, Settler, Sooke. Andrew Muir, Settler, Suoke. John M'Grenur, Settler, S oke. John .17hj/", jun., Setiler, Sooke. Miehavl Muir, Settler, Sooke. Robert Muir, Settler, Siiike. Archiliidd Muir, Settle:-. Sooke. T/winas B/inkliorn, Settler, Michonsan. 5270. Mr. Christy.'] You spoke of the settlement of Oregon; do you know anything of the way in which Oregon was colonised or settled ? — Some portion of it was settled by the servants of the Hudson's Bay Company ; some few of them. .0.24—8688.2. OO3 5271. Can m 'I!' 294 MINU raS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BKFORE THE ! t i!l^ R. Bltituhard,lS,iq. .V^T'- Can you give us any information with respect to that' — No, except — that I have lieard tliat very litth^ liad heen done tliere until there was a great 15 June 1857. influx of Americans; a large influx of Americans took place before the boundary was defined. S'^7'2- Was there any conimunieation between Vancouver's Island and Oregon ?— A schooner of the Iludoon's Bay Company used to pass occasionally between Nisqually and Fort Victoria. ,5273. Did you ever hear of Dr. M'Laughlin ? — Yes. ,5274. Are you aware what part Dr. M'Liui^hlin took in the settleiii8-,. But Victoria is the principal settlement on the south part of the island ?— The principal one. 528(1. And round Victoria, for a distance of 10 square miles, is considered as the ))roperty of the Company .' —It was then ; it was so laid down. ,5287. Then when you speak of the island being well adapted for settlement, you are alluding to that part of it outside that district r —That is naturally the tirst place which would be colonised. ,5288. You stated that yoti believed the island to be a good location for a colony; I want tn know to what exactly you referred:— A mile or two west of Victoria there is a much finer harl)our ; the one at Victoria is exceedingly i)ad, and very difficult of access ; th(>re is a far larger and better harbour, called llsqui- mault, which ajjpeared to me to be the best place for commencing a colony. .VjSc). Is that included within the 10 .s(|uare miles?— That was claimed on behalf of a comjiany called the Puget Sound Company, the existence of which I never could exiu'tly make out. .5290. Was it considered in the island that that Puget Sound Company and the Hudson's May Company were the same body, only under different names?— Everybody declared so ; I could never discover any difl'erence between them. .V-'^i. You mentioned to us that traveUing through the island was difPeult, owing to tile forests of underwood ; do you wish to convey the impression tliat it is so thick a jungle that there would be gn^it difficulty in cle.iring the country for K'ttlenunt .• — Tliere are large plains, which are more adapted for colonisa- tion, as well as these belts of forest. 5 J92. The forest goes sis it were in a belt across the island ; but unincuml)ered by wood, there still is a large fertile plain well adapted for colonisation .'— Tlif aspect of the country is a pine forest, interspersed with occasional open plains. ;')293. Then the wooded part to which you have alluded as being difficult to travel through, is exceptional?— It is. 5294. Mr. HoebucA.] But surely wood is uo obstruction to colonisation?— None SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 395 10 gave evidence here was about a ed about April or south part of tlie None whatever, and tlie size to which the trees" grow there would render tliem R.BlmAard, E»q- excpcdinglv valuable for Hpars. 52U.5. And the heavier the timber the better the land ? — 1 believe it is always 15 Jiin« 1857. considered so. 529(1. Ak to talking about any obstruction arising from jungle, that is not considered by an .American as an obstacle, is it ?— None whatever. 5297. Are you at all aware what the forests are composed of?— Principally pine. 5298. Does not pine usually grow in a barren soil i ■ It does occasionally ; but also when it is cleared it is very fertile. 5^99. Is that )our experience ? — In many places 5300. Is there no hard timber there ; maple, beech, or birch ? — There is a little ouk in the south of the island. .',301. Is there no maple • — I do not know. I never heard of the maple tree being found there. ,i',3(i2. The beecli tree ? — The beech tree grows there, but not in any very large quantities ; the prevailing timber in the island is the pine. ',303. And notwithstanding that, you say that the soil is fertile? — The soil is fertile. I have seen wheat grow there very luxuriantly. 5304. Can you state how many bushels per acre ? — The number of bushels per acre would sound very insignificant to an English farmer, but considering the imperfect cultivation, it was a very good crop ; about 25 bushels on some part of the land. ^305. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is that in the country where you saw originally pine or hard wood ? — Pine. 530C. Do you know Esquimault Harbour?— Yes. 531.7. What sort of harbour is it?— A very good harbour; the deep water would take in a vessel of any size ; the entrance is clear and open ; there is only one rock in it, which is well known, and easily avoided. 53(18. When inside are the vessels in perfect shelter? — In perfect shelter. 5309. In any wind ? — In any wind ; it is oidy open to the south, and the wind from the south there is not very violent, nor tloes it create any sea. 5,;k>. Is that harbour of sufficient capacity to take in a large number of vessels ? — I should think it would take in a dozen line-of-battle ships. 531 1. Esquimault Harbour is on the sea-side of the island, I think ; a vessel having recourse to I'^squimault Harbour would have uo necessity to go within the Straits ? — It is a long way up the Straits ; the entrance of it is four or five miles, or perhaps hardly so much. 531 2. is it north of Victoria ? - It is about due west of it. 5; 13. .Mr. Cliarku FitzwilUam.'\ (an you give us some information as to what the Puget Sound Company is composed of, and what have been its operations ? — I was uucable to understand a threat deal about it ; it seemed to be very much identified with the Hudson's Bay Company ; everything was used indiscriminately ; men came out saying' tliat they were Hudson's Bay Com- pany's servants, and it appeared that their iigrcements had been entered into with the Puget Sound Company ; they were employed on the Hudson's Bay Company's work. 5314 Had the operations of the Company been extensive as a farming com- pan\' • — There was an estabii.^hnient formed close to Esquimault, which was forminfi just as I came away, whicli they said bi'longed to the Puget Sound Company, but the jjcople who were on it had never heard of the Puget Sound Company ; there wnny ; he considered that he had all the time been dealing with the Hudson's Bay (Jompany, and he was not aware of there l)eing such a thing as the Puget Sound Company till he arrived in the island. ."jjii. With whom had he dealings; what member of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Chiefly with Sir John Pelly. 53J2. Who represented the Hudson's Bay Company r — He was GoveniDr of the Hudson's Bay Company. 53C3. Had he anything to do with the Puget Sound Company ? — I believe he was also (Jovernor of the Puget Sound Company. 53.24. What was the actual reception which Captain Langford met with when he arrived on the island .--There had been two log houses put up, one of wliich he was told he was to occupy with his family, and the other was for his labourers. ^ii^^i. Log huts, containing one room each, of course ? — ^'es. 5326. What was his position in society in England .'—He had held a rem- mission in the army, and I believe had sold out about 1 years previously, and turned his attention to farming in Kent. ,"-,327. So that u gentleman of position in England was expected, with his family, to live in a log hut, without any accommodation whatever? — Exactly so. 5328. What steps were taken for his accommodation afterwards? — There was a small log hut at Victoria, which was handed over to him, in which he put away his family in the best way that he could. 5329. What was the nature of this log hut at Victoria; of what size was it? — I suppose about 20 feet by 12; something of that kind. .5330- Containing how many rooms? -It contained one at that time. 5331. So that he was very little better off in the new accommodation than he was in the old ? — What I think you understand by the old accommodation were two houses which were put up near Esquimault, where his farm was intended to be, and he declined to take his family there until he had got a proper house for them, so that upon their first landing they were put into this other loi^ hut. ,5332. Had he been promised a house to live in on his arrival in Vancouver's Island in the first instant^e on his leaving England ? — I should hardly think that he expected to find one ready for him, but he certainly expected better accommodation than he found. .')333- Mr. Edward Ellke.'] How do you know all this ? — Because when he arrived there he had a large family, and his wife, who was a most lady-Hke woman, wsis within a day or two of her confinement, and I ^ave them rooms iu my hou&e, being extremely sorry to see' an English lady reduced to such a state of inconvinience. .5334- With regard to all that may have passed between Mr. Langford and any other parties in London, from what source have you the information as to what hcpes and expectations were held out to him ? — What Mr. Langford told me himself. The terms of nis agreement spoke about his farm, and what his remuneration was to be. 5335. Have you that agreement here?— That was his own agreement. .'5336. Mr. Charles FitzwHliam.] He was a connexion of yours, was he not? — Yes, he was a distant connexion of mine. ,5337. Mr. Edivard Ellice.] Have you a copy of that agreement ? — No, I have not ; but a copy of that agreement would prove nothing, because it merely referred to what was to be done when he arrived on the island. It said nothing about what his expectations were when he arrived there, and what he was to find ready to his hands. ,'5338. Mr. Charles Fifzwilliam.'] You say that by his agreement he was to be supplied with seed, agricultural implements, and everything necessary to conduct a farm ?— Yes. .5339- T^> whom had he to apply for those articles r — To Mr. Douglas. ,534b. In what capacity; as Governor of the Puget Sound Company, or as chief factor of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — That he did not seem at all clear about at first, and I understand that there was some correspondence between them SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S RAY COMPANY. 297 t lie would find WU8 Governor of puny f — I believe fhat size was it? 15 June 18^7. them on the subjeot as to whether Mr. Douglas would acknowledge himself as R.Blanthard,T.iti. ogent of the Puget Sound Company. 5341. Mr. Kduard E/lice.] In fact, is Mr. Langford still in the island in the service of the Puget Land Company ? — I believe so. ,'•,342. Mr. Charles Filzwilliam.] In what capacity was .Mr. Douglas in the island ; was he as Governor of the Puget Hound Company, or as an officer of the Hudson's Bay Company r — As both. ,'5343. I think you said that Mr uglas rather denied that he had anything to do with the Puget Sound Comp.,.iy? — What passed between him and Mr. Langford I cannot tell, because I was not present ; but Mr. Langford told me that he had been obliged to write to him to know whether he was the manager of the Puget Sound Company or not. 5344. Do you know what the answer was?— I really did not inquire wliat the answer was. ,'534,'). Mr. Edward FAlice.] You said just now that Mr. Douglas was governor of the Puget Land Company; how do you know that? — Me managed all their affairs, and directed what should be done indiscriminately with those of the Hudson's Bay Company. I did not say governor ; I said manager. VM^'- Can you tell us in any jwrticular in what way he acted as governor or niiinager of the Puget Lnnd Company ?— Merely that he directed that their accounts should be made out in the Hudson Bay Company's office ? — I heard one of the officers grumbling about having to do the Puget Sound Company's work without remuneration ; he ap])ortioned men out ; he took the management of the men who came out there with agreements as Puget Sound Company's men. .'■,347. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Was there any return of the persons im- ported into the island by the Hudson's Bay Company? — I was furnished with lists of pai^stngers by the captains of the ships ; but 1 cannot produce them, because they are destroyed with the rest of my own pajjcrs, .".348. And the j)ersons who formed the staff of the Pugei Sound Company W(.uld be reported as having been introduced as settlers by the Hudson's Bay Company ?— I presume so by the numbers ; the numbers were given, as free settlers introduced by the Hudson's Bay Company, and they tallied with the nuniber of passengers given to me. ,|)34(). Mr Mathvson.] Are you aware whether persons going out under the Puget Sound Company were reported as servants of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany ? — I merely saw a report of so many settlers sent out by the Hudson's Bay Company. ,5350. But you do not know whether they went out as servants of the Puget Sound Company or not ? — As tiie number tallied with the number given me by the captain of the ship, it must have been so. .535 •• Mr- Ciroga7i.^ Was any return or report ever made to you of emi- grants, or settlers, or labourers, broOght out by the Puget Sound Company ? —Never. .'5352. But there were reports made to you of emigrants and laboiirers that were brought out by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I merely had a return of the number. ,'5353. They were always entered as having been sent out by the Hudson's Bay Company r —They were all put together ; a paper was hnnded to me, saying, " These are the number of settlers that we have brought out." 5354- Whom do you mean by "we" in that answer? — Mr. Douglas gave it to me ; whether he was speaking collectively, or only as manager of the Hudson's Bay Company, I will not pretend to say. ftSfia- You, as governor, had no means whatever of knowing the settlers and labourers that were brought out by the one Company and the other ? — None whatever. 53.5(). And you were under the impression that they all came out under the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I was under that impression. 53 ■)7. Mr. Charles Filzwilliam.] So that those persons who were introduced into the island by the Puget Sound Company would make people think that the Hudson's Bay Company had been doing all in their power to colonise the island ? —Just so. m m iijili 0.24— Sess. 2. Pp Licut.-col, H: Caldwell. 15 June 1857. 3H 398 MINUTES OF EVIUKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Liputeimnt-dlonel Willium Caldwell, culled in : and Rxnmined. /iS.sS (7i you believe that under any other system it is probable that tiiat country and its vicinity would be settled and colonised to a considerable extent? — Mot as long as other parts were open more approximating to the civiHsed portion of the territory. Unless for fur-bearing animals, I do not see any o'oject that a settler would have in going 10 that remote part of the globe. 5374. Mr. /lochuck.] Were you ever in the United States? — 1 have been there. .')375- Were you ever in Minesota? — No. ,537(). Chutrviun.'] Do you know the Saskatchewan? — I do not. On my entrance into the country I went to York ; and I saw enough, I am sure, to prevent any one wishing to go into a settlement in so remote a position as that. My SELECT COMMltTl THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. t in that went out, suppose that if lets more to the open Ixmt from I tliiit journi-y ^ ork •() Red ill uii ope I illiiwinff p^trntcraph in 'o Jdinesof if »*pl(i' = l> II' iiiid, HI! oal, 1(11(1 into I.aki ^'inni|>eg, Do yi> 'dieve it >r' if it w 18 available My family, with five yot, i( dii Hivcr; it tooii them four we« ;j boat. 5377. My attention ha« brt>ii 'IIkI to tin Anierican newspaper : " 'I'hoae 1 are afraii > eoine 1 the eiianeeH are all taken up, m-eii not di-pair; re« broll^ht into notice a fertile rejfion, abounding wit minerals, lyinj? on the Saskatchewan, which empties itH( whicli empties, through Nelson Kiver, into lluilson's Hi likely that emif^rants wotiltl find their way into this ttrrii for them ? I think that, if they were permitted, the Amentia emigrants would be likely to do so, because the access is so very I'asy and api)rtmchable, acrosa the plains, from the American territory, into tht! Red River. 537S. \'ou think that the stream of settlers would come rather from the United .States than from any other direction! — If they were allowed, I should think so. S;i79. ^'■- Ifotbtic/i.] Then the only obstacle to the colonisation of the country is the want of roads t — I he want of roads ; the difticulty of fj;eltiiig there. ,5380. If they could get there they would go there .' — I cannot judge of that except from my own feeling ; I should not like to go to so remote a spot ; I have been seven years there, and know what it is 5381. You found that there were settlers in the remote parts of America? — At the Red River settlement ; I have been further of course ; I have been up at York, but they were only servants of the Company, who were compelled to stay. ,'■,382. You said that you had been in America ? — I have been in Canada, and I have been in New York. '■,38;j. You have not been in any of the back settlements ? — No. 5384. You know that settlement and colonisation has gone across the Mississippi ?■- 1 have read and heard of such things, but 1 have no personal acquaintamx; with them. .')3^.5- Should you suppose that people would have been taken across the Missi>^^sippi, or would have gone u|) tiie .Mississippi in an open boat, and undergone all the hardships of that river? — Yes; of course when they have got steamers and railroads across, it is very easy to go into the country ; when you have that accomplished, it is very easy to get to Red River. .S38<). Would it not have startled you just as much to see a body of emigrants going across the Mississippi as it did in the case which you state, of the dcoI. W. C»ldm,U. 15 June 1857. m m ^jllli I .'..im. You Miiil that you curried out n body )t i««"ttler(« ' —They were partly 8t'ttl« r» uiid partly troopH ; tlu-y »en' enrolled )M'nsiuiierH. .'».}(),')• Vou took thetii out Iroiii (iravcHfiid ! 1 did. .^jjjo. W»T«' thi-y KiiKlish p<'«)plf • — EiiK'ioti, Irish, und Scotch. .lij")?- How many ?— Vifty-six, with their wivei und children. .'i.'jpiS. Aho^etlier tifty-six f — Fifty-six men, non-oonuniMHioned officers, itnd privateH. 5;Jf'9' '^ number of tliesc I Mup|M)Me were married and had children - - I'he greater number ; there were 14 tliut were Bin^le men ; the re«t were all married, with HUiniler or larger fnndlieti. ,')40o. You took these out to Hudtion's Hay, and from there to Red Kiverf— To Hed River. .5401. Did they Mettle there? — A few of them are there still. .'i4o2. What took them there? — They went out enrolled; they went > nt as a force, ,5403. As soldiers? — Partly ns settlers an^ partly as soldiers. .'',4(14. Did they go out with the intention of remaining there ; was it under- stood that tiiey would remain there ? — It was supposed that they would remain there. .540/). And upon that expectation you took out all these people? — 1 was sent out; the (iovenunent sent them out ; I was the commanding officer. .')4i)6. So many people went with you as settlers ? — They did. ,5407. ISo that there was an evidence that people would go out as emigrants to that country ?- -We soldiers are obliged to go anywhere where we are sent. .540S. Did they go as com))ulsory soldiers r — I presume not ; but it was an inducement held out as an enrolment, having '20 acres of land as a private, a corporai .iO, and a serjeant 40 acres ; that 1 sup[)ose was the inducement, and that they could do better there than they could in this country, 5409. And that inducement led them to go out there ? — It led them to go out, I presume. .5410. You say that you exercised judicial and legislative functions whilst you were there f- 1 did, as far as ray ability enabled me to perform them in the state in which I foun- I came 5430. -Yes. .54.JI- ,')4;53. 54.15' .54.14- two I think that it was ui 1852 What was that ? — They offered him the clerkship of the court. Of whi«'h he had previously been judge ? -Yes. Did he take it .'—Yes, he accepted it. Mr. Edward KUice.] How long wjis he there? — I think he was years there. .'54.1'). Wcount a nderich.] As clerk?— I think so. that lie was appointed, and he came home in 1854. ,';43(». Who became recorder then ? — There was no recorder during that time ; afterwards a Mr. Johnson, a Queen's counsel from Montreal, succeeded him. .5437. Who exercised the judicial function during that time? — I was judge and everything, 1 believe ; I was Jack in office, and did everything. ,'i4,j8. Ai»d .Mr. Thorn was your clerk? -He was at one time. When I was judge, he was clerk ; but it was a farce having to conduct the business ; there were no lawyers there ; it was a court of equity. I tried to do justly between man and man ; that was my great object. ,';43(). Mr. Roebuck.] " By equity," you mean exactly what the judge pleased ? —1 had no judge afterwards. 5 140. Mr. Christi/.] Did Mr. Thorn conlinue to charge the jury in his capiicity as clerk of the court ? — No ; the Company can tell yon better than I can their reasons for (tutting Mr. I horn as clerk, instead of on the bench. 5441. But you say that he did not contiime to charge the jury in his capacity as the clerk of the court ? — Not after 1849. In 1 849, when Sir George Simpson came up, there was a petition to him ; but 1 never saw the petition ; it was merely what I heard ; and I found afterwards that Mr. Thorn did not frequent either my court or my council. ,5442. Do yru recollect a case, which became somewhat notorious, of Foss 1;. Pelly ? — Yes, to my sorrow ; that case gave me a great deal of anxiety and uneasiness. 5443. What was the amount of damages in that case ? — The damages were 200/. against Pelly and wife, and 100/. against Davison and wife, who were coupled with Pelly and wife. Mr. Pelly was a trader, and John Davison was the mess waiter of the mess with his wife, and they were coupled together. Captiiin Foss excused Davison in court at the time when the decision was made known, but received the money from Pelly and his wife. 5444. Who charged the jury and delivered the sentence of the court upon that occasion r — Mr. Thorn got into court that day by permission from those who had previously prevented him from attending. 5445. There was a jury.' — There was. 5446. Will you describe what took place on that occasion in reference to the charge which was addressed to the jury ; I think you stated that Mr. Thorn came into court at that time after he had been, as you believe, officially (lispbiced ; will you inform the Committee what part Mr. Thorn took in that trial ? — Mr. Thorn pointed out the nature, and charged the jury as to the extent of the penalty, and the jury gave the verdict ; they gave a grand sum of 300 /. Mr. Thorn then pointed out that that would not do ; that they v. ere to discriminate between the Pellys and Davison, and to specify a given sum to each party. The jury then retired to their room, and on their return the sentence was 200/. penalty against Pelly and his wife, and 100/. against Davison. 5447. Did he act on that occasion as advocate ? — 1 am afraid that he acted both as advocate and judge. 0.24— Sess. 2. P P 3 5448. Mr. I.ieut .rol. 15 Jane 1837. li 302 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE illftli. liiiii^ Lieut.-col. ')44S. Mr. Groiran.'] Wlio was the ])residing judge on the occasion ? — I was IV. CaldueU. Governor. f,44y Mr. C/irw/j/.] Did he not previously act as advocate in this case, and 15 June 1857. afterwards charge the jury ?— It ajjpeared so to me. r,->!yu. Viscount (wudcricli.] Do you mean that he pleaded in the case before the jury ' — Not so, but that he gained information from the several parti-^s, and then came to adjiidicate upon the question on that bench. .54.') I. Mr. Christy.] By "gaining information," do you mean to say that he was constdted by the parties ? — I believe that Sir George Simpson made inquiries into it, and that Mr. Thorn was jiresent. I was not there, and therefore 1 cati only tell from what I surmise, and what I heard took ])lace. 5-),'i2. Mr. luhrard K/licc.^ Do you believe that substantial justice was done in the matter ! — No. .')4.);{. Chairn'on.] When you say that Mr. Tliom acted as judge and as advocate in this ease, do you mean that he actually pleaded formally as an advocate, and afierwards gave judgment ? — No .')4")4. Or do you mean that, as the judge, he showed the feelings of an advocate? — 1 mean to say, that when Sir George Sirapsun came and inquired into this matter, he and Mr. Thorn being i)resent, they inquired from the did'erent witnesses of those who were accused what their statements were, and Mr. Thorn heard them. ,54,'55. .Mr. Rothuck.] Out of court r -Out of court, privately, before Sir George Simpson. 5456. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Do you think that substantial justice was done in the case, with reference to the tine imposed ? — I did not refer to the fine. 54,57. Do you think that, with respect to the tine which was imi)osed, substantial justice was done ? — No, I do not ; that was one of the things which I was not satisfied with. .^^ifiS. Do you think that the fine or the punishment was too little or too great : —I was under the impression that the fine was beyond my means ol imposing a fine. 54,5p. You stated that you did not think that substantial justice was done when the sentence was pa.ssed ; do you think that the fine was too little or too great, because it was in that that justice or injustice consisted "- — It was not in that. .'>46o. You stated just now that you thought that substantial justice was not done ; if injustice was done, was it because the fine was too little, or because it wa-i too large ? — It was not on that plea ; the injustice was, that Mr. Thorn had been consulted. ,5461 . Then you think that, as regards the merits of the case, substantial justice was done i — I think the fine was too great, if you wish that. ,')4(i2. Mr. Lowe.] Vvhat was the nature of tlie action ; was it for libel, or slander, or what was the injury complained of r — It was defamatory con- spiracy. * ,5463. Mi*. Edward El/ice.] The plaintiff was in this case Captain Foss, was he not r — Yes. ^464. Captain Foss was not in the service of the Company ? — He was in the pay of the ( ompany as a staff officer, and looking after the workmen. ''54t),5. Mr. Pelly, the defendant, was a servant of the Company ? — He was a (diief trader. .54G(i. He was part and parcel of the Clompany ?— Yes. 54{)7. Was the verdict therefore adverse, in this instaiice, to the servant of the Company? — It was; it was against Mr. Pelly. The case was l"'oss v. Pelly. '-,4(18. Mr. Itochiick.] You say that the action was for a conspiracy ?— Defa- matory conspiracy was what it was stated to be. .54(19. Who were the defendants ?— The defendants were Pelly and wife, and Davison and wife. 5470. You sav that there were four defendants?— Four defendants. "5471. All the defendants were fined ?- They were all fined, but the fine was not paid on the part of Davison and his wife ; Captain Foss told him that he would forgive him. ,5472. But it was i)aid by the others?— Yes, Mr. Pelly paid for himself and his wife. ,. 5473- It ustice was done efore Sir George ibstantial justice iptain Foss, was SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S liAY COMPANY. 303 5473. It was defamation, in fact ?— Yes, defamation of character; a con- spiracy. '-,474. The charge was that these persons had conspired to take away the plaintiff's character < — Mrs. Uallenden's character ; Mr. Ballenden was the chief factor in charge. 547,5. i'hen the chief factor in charge got a verdict:— It was not the factor; it was Captain Foss who biought the action. ,',476. What was Captain Foss?— lie was the staff officer of the pensioners. 54-7. Was lie in the service of the Company then?— He was paid by the Company. .'-,478. So that in fact it was one offiier of the Company who brought an action against another ? — I do not know whether you consider it as such : I tell you his position ; he was a staff officer. 5479. You have been asked, in order to stiow the impartiahty of the tribunal, whether the verdict was not given against the Company's servant ; I now ask you whether the plaintiff was not the Company's servant as well ? — He was in the Company's pay. 5480. Mr. Edward Ellicc] He was Her Majesty's officer, was not he?- He was an officer retired from the service, and he got the local rank of captain, to put him in the situation of having a commanding position among the pensioners ; he sold out of the service before he joined. 54S1. Mr. C'A/isjy.] And he was paid by the Company ? — He was paid by the Company on two heads. 5482. Viscount Guderich.] I understood you to say that it was the intere.st of the chief factor that Captain Foss should get a verdict ? —Yes. He was the principal evidence ; he and his wife were brouglit in as evidence, which was a thing which I did not tiiink was at all according to our mode of proceeding. -^^483. Therefore it was the interest of the chief employ^ of the Company there that Ccaptain Foss should get a verdict P — It was; now doubt about it. He Wiis concerned for the character of his wife. ,')484. .Mr. Gro()un.] Who presided on this trial ? — I did. I was the Governor and the President in the chair ; it was my office, as Governor, to preside at all courts and councils. f 48 -,. And you acted, I suppose, on the occasion of this trial ? — No, the judge was there ; the judge was responsible for his own acts as recorder. I was only the Prt sident. According to the charter, there is a Governor and Council ; it is some new feature in the case to have a recorder. ,548(5. Mr. Roebuck] That Governor and Council are not judicial officers ? - They are to administer justice, and to take the law into their own hands, according to the charter ; that is what they were obliged to do when the charter was given. ,'5487. You talk about the Governor and ('ouncil ; the Governor and Council are executive and legislative officers, but they are not judicial officers ; they do no^ try anybody ? —1 said before that I did not look upon it as judicial, but more as equity, to administer justice between the two parties in any case which came before me. ,'5488. The Governor and Council ? -The Governor and Council. 5481). Then they were judges; they had a judicial function? — Yes, we had. 5490. You presiding at that court, why were } ou not the judge ? — Because the Company found that the settlers increasing to the extent that they ilid, required a recorder, and they had a recorder from the year 1839. 54yi. The recorder appeared, according to your description of the constitu- tion, merely to be your assessor :— Exactly so. 545)2. He was not judge ; you were the judge ; you were the supreme of the court, were you not r — You do not wish to implicate me, I hope, because I do not wish to give evidence against myself, if you are going to put me in that position. 5493. Viscount Ciodeiic/i.] Werejou present in court on that occasion? — I was ; it could be no court without the Governor. 5494. But you (lid not interfere in charging the jury, or guiding them as to their verdict? — No. 5495. You took no part, then, in the proceedings except sitting there? -No. 0.24— Sess. 2. 1' r 4 5496. Mr. Lieut.-col. fy. CiiUtMii. 15 June 1857, ■^ 'it 304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Lieut.-col. «'. CaUwell. 15 June 1857. h. ^' \i ;}(' ,')4f)6. Mr. Edward FMice.] If you had thought that a great injustice was poing to be done, would you have felt justified in continuing the court?— There was such a strong feeling. There was the judge who was responsible to you for the legality of the act. The recorder was there, as far as the law was concerned, to see that all was right. ,5497. Mr. Grogan.] Vou have described to us now the constitution of the court ; that the Governor and Council presided at it to see justice done, and that the recorder, as their judge, charged the jury and directed them as to the verdict which they ought to find ? — Yes. ,')4!)8. You speak of a jury ; of how many did it consist ? — Twelve. 5499- Of the settlers of the country generally? — Of the settlers of the coimtry ; and on that occasion I remember that some of the most intelligent of the settlers had been selected. .'5.500. Viscount Goderich.] Then it appears tl)at although .Mr. Thorn was suspended from his function as recorder in 1849 by Sir George Simjjson, he nevertheless came into court on this occa*»ion and acted again as recorder and that you permitted him to do so? — He was not suspended exactly; it was a sort of aiifreement l)etween the recorder and Sir George that he would with- draw ; that he would not enter the court or council. It was a voluntary act between the parties, I believe, as far as I heard of it ; but I was not present at the time. ."JSOi . You would have held that he had the right of coming into court again, and acting as recorder during that time r — ^'es ; he was paid for it. .'i50'2. But he did not act? — He did not act except on that occasion ; on that occasion he was called in by the consent of the parties who were opposed to him. 5.'}03- Mr. Roebuck] Were there any trials which took place during his absence ? — Several trials took place. .';,'504. Who was judge then? — I was judge ; I administered justice, as far as hearing what was said ; but I pretty much adopted the plan which is usual in our military courts, and instead of charging the jury, which I felt I had not the ability to do (I had not the phraseology to charge the jury in the language in which they siiould be charged), I merely desired the clerk of the court to read the proceedings, to refresh the memories of the jury, and 1 left them to decide the question. .5'><^.5 Viscount Goderich.] When was Mr. Thorn appointed clerk of the court? — I think it was in 1852 that he was aj)poiiited clerk ; 1 do not exactly remember the date ; it was after this trial ; I wrote home very strongly upon it ; I did not feel at all satisfied with the proceedings of that court, and I wrote home. .')'50(). Mr. Edward Ellke.] Did any of the parties object to the proceedings of that court r — There whs a great deal of objection on the part of Mr. Pelly, the defendant ; he wrote very strongly home to Sir John Pelly, the governor. .'i.'joy. Mr. Christy.] Are you aware that there is an Act of Parliament restraining any court within Rupert's Land from trying any civil action where the amount at issue exceeds 200/. ?— I had heard that, and in order to have the fact a.scei tained I wrote home about it. I have the letter in my pocket, which, with the permission of Mr. EUice, I will read to the Committee, because tliis is an official letter. I felt myself, from what had been stated on the subject, that it was a doubtful question, and I was determined to have it brought before the Governor and Committee at home. I was asked the question when Mr. Thorn accepted the appointment of clerk ; it was in April 1851 ; here is a copy of his letter to Mr. Caldwell, who was Governor of Rupert's Land, and I see that that is the date. I cannot now lay my hand upon the letter which 1 received in reply to mine. .';'>o8. Mr. Edward EUice.] Will you state the substance of the letter to which you have referred r — That I had not exceeded the powers in going beyond 200/. ; that there was no limitation. "»5og. Mr. Roebuck.] That was the answer which you received from London? —Yes. S,") I o. Mr. Christy.] Am I to understand that you had heard that you were not to try any cases exceeding 200/., and that you addressed a letter to the Company in London r — There was a great deal said in the settlement by those who HE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 305 I injustice was the court?— responsible to 18 the law was ititution of the itice done, and them as to the elve. settlers of the lost intelligent ilr. Thorn was ge Simpson, he 3 recorder and xactly, it was he would with- a voluntary act not present at nto court again, ir it. casion ; on that iere opposed to lace during his justice, as far as ^hich is usual in ;lt I had not the the language in he court to read ; them to decide I clerk of the do not exactly strongly upon urt, and I wrote le proceedings rt of Mr. Pelly, the governor. of Parliament vil action where rder to have the y pocki't, which, , because this is he subject, that ught before the hen Mr. Thorn is a copy of his _i I see that that received in reply e letter to which ig beyond 200/.; I from London: I that you were a letter to the leraent by those who who were opposed to the Hudson's Bay Coni])any that they had not the power to go beyond 200 /. I then wished to know the fa(;t from the Company them- selves, whether my powers were such, in order that I might in future be guided as to the decisions of the court. 551 1. Viscount Godtrich.] And the reply which you received was, that there was no limit to your power in that respect ? — I think that that was the nature of it. ,5512. Mr. Chriiti/,] You can put it in after^vards, but you did address a letter to London r — Yes. 5513. And you received a reply to that letter? — I did. S.-jM. Which did not limit your powers? — I would rather say that it stated that the powers had not been exceeded in going beyond 200 /. ; that was tiie question which I put. .',515. Are you aware that the Hudson's Bay Company are under a bond of 5,000/. to refer all cases of this amount to the courts in Canada r— No, I am not aware of it. .'i'iifi. Mr. Edward EUke.] You do not know whether that bond relates only to he licensed territory ? — No, 1 am ignorant of that. 5,517. Mr. Christi/.] Have you ever seen a charge to the jury at Red River published by Mr. Thorn ? — Yes, I have seen it ; but it was previous to my going out. S,'', 1 8. Have you seen that since you went out; did you see it at the time you were there ? — I saw it when I arrived in the country. 5519. There are several cases of a capital nature referred to in this charge; I do not mean cast where sentence of death ha^- l)een passed, but cases of murder and manslaughter which have been tried by the court ; do you consider that you had the necessary authority for trying these cases at the Red River without reference to the courts of Canada ? — There was one instance in which infanticide was brought before me ; I will confine myself to what is within my own experience ; it was the grandmother who had made away with the child ; that is to say, she took out her daughter in the open air, while the snow was on the ground, and she took no care of the progeny after it was brought forth, and the child died, and she wtis brought up for infanticide, and was found guilty, and she was sentenced to be hung. From the recommendation of the jury, and from circumstances which were recorded, I commuted the punishment of death to two years' imprisonment. That was the only case. 5520. During that time, when you were exercising those powers, you were not aware that there existed an Act of Parliament which limited the powers of the Hudson's Bay Company, and compelled all such cases to be sent to Canada ?— I was not, otherwise I should have been very glad to have got rid of the case. 5-)2i. Mr. Grtgan.] \\ hen did you hear for the first time of that power, that in case of any prosecution for such an offence as you have just described it should be referred to the courts in Can.ida ? — I have heard it here. 5522. This is the first time ? — I may have heard it in this room, but it has been since I have been present upon this inquiry. 5523. Durinji the whole time when you were Governor of the territory you had no information whatever on the subject ? — No. 5524. Mr. Chrislj/.'] If you had heard of such a requirement, you would have considered that the cases which came witliin your notice involved circumstances of that importance which necessitated their being sent to Canada? — I am not sufficiently master of the subject which you refer to ; I do not know the Acts of Purlianient, any more than hearing the matter spoken of in this room ; that is all the knowledge which 1 have of it. S')2$. C/iairiiian.] Do you think that the settlement improved while you were there ? — Very much ; there was a very great improvement, and I think tliey are greatly indebted to the exertions of the Bishop of Rupert's Land. 5,')2ti. Was Cfire taken in the education of the children ? — Very great care ; so rau(!h so that 1 could not have remained, having a young family, had it not been for the great anxiety of the Bishop to have a proper school established in ttie country. He hpd a gentleman from Cambridge out as a tutor, and he provided a lady, who hid kept a large establishment at St. Cross, near Win- chester, for tlie education of the females : he went to very great expense. I am 0.24— Sess. 2. Q <4 quite Licut.-col. W. CaldweU, 15 June 1857. ■"ft m. ^ 1 ■ i '< i : 3o6 MINUTES OF EVIDKXCR TAKEN HEFORK THE 4 :|i M' l|! :V Lieut.-coI. quite sure that the income, uliich w.is only '20 I. a year for each scliolar, was fF. Calduell. exceeded by the expense. 1.127. ^Vhen you left do you think tliat it could be pjeneraliv described as a 15 June 1857. ^veii ordered and thriving community .'—1 tliink so. 55 j>. \V e life and property adequately protected.- — 1 cannot say a.s to that ; i)eople seemed to live in fear ; people were alarmed lest they should have their i)n)perty set on tin-, or auythinsi^ of tlint sort ; they did not dare to take any active steps. •J.'i^i). Sir John Piihini)ton.\ Do you mean set on fire by incendiaries ? — I hey were fearful of irivini^ offence to their neighbours. 5530. Do you mean that such incendiary fires were common ? — No. ^.'JSi . Then why were they apprehensive of them t — There was n fear in their mind. rt'yyi. It was a fear without any foundation from actual experience ? — There was no foundation for it. ,-,533. If there was no foundation for such fejirs from actual experience, what was ir which caused their apprehensions to be turned in that direction rather than in any other .' — I ciinnot say that, but I can merely mention the fact of hearing it stated repeatedly, that they were afraid to gin," evidence against their neighbours, against any neighliour; there was a great delicacy in giving evidence. .5534. What means of knowledge have you that such fears as you have de- scribetl actually existed r — The question was in the fur trade : that they were apprehensive of coming forward to give evidence, or to take any active ])art in the protection of the fur trade ; they were apprehensive of those against whom they might ajjpear. ,5.i35. Mr. Jioi'/mck.] You mean that the fur trade was a monopoly exercised by the Company r— Yes. .5.53'». And in order to protect that monopoly, if anybody gave evidence he would incur the displeasure of his neighbours ? — When there was a disturbance about the fur trade in the country, 1 spoke to the magistrates in order to call out the better disjwsed, or those who did not traffic illicitly or privately in the fur trade, to be sworn in as special constables. The magistrates told me that no man wouUl come forward in a case of that sort. 5537. The monopoly of the fur trade was so disliked by the people, that they turned their displeasure against anybody who endeavoured to maintain it: — No; I would rather put it in tliis light, that they felt so Httle interest in the further- ance of the fur trade, that they would not risk their own property to protect the fur tride. 5.53*^- But then they must have apprehended danger from somebody ; from what did that ai)]jrehension of danger arise r — They would have a host of enemies ag.iinst them if they took an active part ; that was the apprehension in their minds. .5539- Sir Ji Pa/dnfltoii.] What enemies do you mean ; are you referring to nicinbers of the Company .^s those enemies r — No. 5,')40. To whom are you referring : — I am referring to the illicit traders ; the privalc traders; the greater part of the French half-breeds are private traders, trading in furs. ,5541. INIr. Roebucli.'. 1 hey violate the monopoly •— Yes. 5,t4J. Sir Jo/i/i P(ihhiglon'\ Therefore in fact there is a constant riviilry be- tween that illicit trade and the fur trade carried on by the Company? — Yes; the others who do not trade are not sufficiently interested in the matter to put themselves in a prominent position to protect the ( ompany. 5,';43. Mr. liuchur/t.] They are not sufficiently interested in the matter to inctir the danger arising from protecting the monopoly r- Yes ; that is the position. .5544. Sir John Pa/ii»ijtofiJ Yon mean that persons are afraid of giving any information to the Company with reference to the illicit tiade for fear of the consequence^ .' — Yes. 5545 But then you say that although tiieir fears took the direction of appre- hending incendiary tires, there was no experience of that ? — No. .5540. ^\as there experience of acts of violence of any other kind from the same causes ; do you know of acts of violence having been committed under those circumstances • — There was no act of violence, but there was a very for- midable array or demonstration of violence shown in 1849. 5547. Violent nopoly exercised SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 307 .5.'i47. \ iolent feeling existed, in fact ? — Yes. .5/)4S. A feeling existed ainonij; the free-truders of such a nature, that persons felt alarnaed with respect to it r —They turned out ; there was a great mob. •')54(). Mr, Christy.] That time of whiiih you are speaking v as a time of very great excitement 'f — Yes ; that wa.s in ' 849, shortly after I got there ; I went in 1848. ^T.'jO. Just at that period, in the Red River Settlement, it was a time of unusual excitement? — Ves. ,5,5.'; I. We have heard a good deal said, and you have heard it also, having been present during most of the examination in this room, of the cause of that excitement ? — Yes. ,t5.-j2. The illicit trade in furs was one cause ; the endeavour to put it down on the part of the ('ompany, and the prosecution of it (m the part of those persons who were illegally engaged in it ; and in . (.")3- <^f course you are aware that the pensioners were sent out us a bodv, supposing that their presence might be of us;- in arranging some of those dis- turbances, as being a check ? — Yes. 55.';4. The troops, 1 think, as you recollect, went about the same time? — I relieved the troops ; they had been there two years previously to my going there, and I went out with this body of pensioners to relieve the garrison. ifjl^. You are aware that the troops had previously gone, as tiiere existed a state of considerable excitement, and when the troops were withdrawn you followed them there ? — I went out to relieve the troops ; on my arrival the troops returned home ; I relieved the garrison. 5,5.56. You went out, I believe, under certain a'.'reements, to obtain grants of land for the jKinsioners whom you took out with you .' — Yes ; 20 acres for a private, 80 for a corporal, and 40 for a seijeant. Those were the printed con- ditions under which the pensioners went out to that country. 55.57. Were the pensioners satisfied with the arrangements which were made for them when they got out to the Red River ? — Tliey were by no means satisfied ; they were very much dissatisfied, and the reason was this : the Com- pany at home imagined that they had a greater reserve of land than they actually had, and when tlie land came to be distributed (it was bound to be within two miles of the !,:irt) it was found that there was not nearly the quantity to give them according to those conditions, and there was very great dissatisfaction. Sir George Simpson came up in June 1849, and by offering them a sum of money in lieu of the land ))acified them. Tliey were eager to get the money, for they got dissiitisfied with the country altogether, being so fai' away from the civilised part of the world that they were very much dissa- tisfied on their firsi irrival. Another thing was, that they were all put into a place wiiere they li 1 not sufficient room. Tliey were very uncomfortable for the first winter, and ' assure vou I liad a .ijreat deal of trouble to manage them at all. HF)^^- With respect lo those men under your command, do you think that the conditions were as well fulfilled by tiie Company as they might have been • — Yes, from the reason which I give, th.at the Company \vere not aware that their reserve land was so little. 555y- 1 hen yon think that it was more from their entering into injudicious arrangements in the first instance, tiinn from a disjiosition to break them when the i)arties got to the Red River r — Yes ; there was no intention on the part of the Company to defraud the men ; the matter arose from their acting ignorantly in pledging so much land when they had not it in their reserve. 55l)o, Mr. Edward Eilice.] And they uuide up the deficiency afterwards in money? — Yes; they gave money to the men; but I did not approve of it, because they went and squandered the money as soon as tluy could. 5561. Mr. lloi'ljiick.] When }ou say that they had not a reserve of land sufficient, was the lauil taken up by the i)oi)ulation so comi)letely as to prevent any wild land being at their disposal :— Ihe ( ompany have two forts out there 20 miles distant, Jind at each fort they have a certain portion of reserve laud. 5,5()2. To whom does the other wild land belong .- — Along the rivers there are only about two miles which will come under cultivation ; there are the 0.24 — Sess. 2. Q Q 2 Assinaboin Lieut.-col. fV. CaldwU. 15 Ju:. • 1857. ;i 1 fr 1 i t .■{■■ ■ i' i' • j I j i 1 i ;::1 * ,:ii 3o8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Lieut.-col. IV. CaldwtU. 16 June 1857. iMH^ Assinaboin and the Red Rivers, and there are only about two miles in extent from the rivers which come under cultivation ; the rest is all a swamp. .5563' But that swamp does not extend over the whole country? — Here and there is a little dry land, but it is principally swamp ; in the spring for instance, when the snow dissolves, it is all water for a great extent. 5.5()4. Mr. Lowe.] What lias become of the pensioners ; are they there still ? — A few of them are left ; many of them went away before I left ; some of them went to Canada, and a few cume home, and some few are left. .I.^fi.")- How many are left : — I left 2r> families there when I returned in 1855. 55()6. Mr. Christy.] Do you think that tlie country iibout the lied River is capable of supirarting a considerable population, as regards the climate and the soil : — ^'es : there are extremes ; tliere is very severe cold in winter, and there is very great heat in summer ; but I have heard from those who have cultivated the land that they have got as much as 30 bushels for one. ^)!)^7- What is the character of the country up the Assinaboin ? — I have not been any distance up the Assinaboin ; 1 have only been about eight or ten miles up. 5.568. Have the Company encouraged the extension of settlement in that direction ? — It is not the object or the interest of the Company to colonise at all, in my idea ; I do not think that they have any great wish to colonise. A great deal has been said about land : they sell the land, but, unfortunately for the Company, they have seldom reaped the proceeds of it ; they sell the land with the condition that so much corn yearly is to be given ; sometimes they get a small return, at other times they do not. S.'jdg. I understand you to say that the Company are not desirous for coloni- sation ; the natural resJilt of that would be that there is very little demand ; there is but a small amount of population which will create the demand for land .' — The demand arises from the increase of families ; the families increase very largely, and the original allotments are too small, and they go further up the Assinaboin as squatters. 557G. Is there now a demand for land there r — From the increase of families, not from fre.sh importation. 5571. Taking your general knowledge of tlie country, is there a very limited demand for land from the families of the population?— I cannot say exactly, because when the family is too large for the estate they go off and take land, and squat themselves in some instances. .5.572. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Do the Company throw any obstruction* in their waj- .' — They have been more stringent lately in their regulations ; they require some portion of the money. The last year or two they have required them to i)ay a certain amount before they allow people to have possession of the land. .1573- Chairman.} Uo the half-breeds associate on a footing of equality ■with tiie pure white men?— Some few do. Tie great majority of them are unlearned. .5.574. You think that there is no prejudice of colour r —\o, nothing of that kind ; the only thinjr is their not having sufficient substance. There wns a magistrate there, a Mr. Grant ; he was one of the best there ; he was a magis- trate on the bench, and there is a Mr Bunn, a '-.edical man there ; the only medical man they have there at present. 5575. Mr. Kinnaird.] You have spoken of the bishop ; what is your opinion of the missionaries generally, and of the oth.ir ministers in the Red River Set- tlement?— I think they are very devoted men; they do all they can for the benefit of the people in enlightening and instructing them. .5.576. It was said here in the evidence tliat they were receiving a sop ; you think that they are quite above tiiatr— I should tliink so ; I do not know any- thing of that. .5.577. Have you any acquaintanci- with the settled Indians ?— I have been down to the Indian settlement, and been very nuich pleased indeed with the mode in which they carried on their worship on the Sabbath. I was there on a Sunday, and they were as devotional in appearance as any congregation I ever was in. .5.57S. .\s to ihcir settled habit; ; arc they becoming industrious .— They have farnss, und some few animals a.aongst them. 5579- Did SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 30.) ease of fiinulies, strious ?— They 5579. Did you see any of the Indians who professed Christianity, whether settled or hunting Indians ?— Yes, those Indians at the Indian Settlement arc professed Christians ; they become professed Christians when they settle. fiHSo. Do some still continue hunting ■ — No ; most of them at the Indian Settlement are voyageurs ; they go to York in boats. S.ijSi. Mr. RoelntcA.] Are they Catholics or Protestants? — At the Indian Settlement they are Protestants ; it is a Protestant settlement. The Catholics are kept on the south side of the river. The Catholic missionaries are there ; there is a Catholic cathedral and a bishop's house, and the priests are there : they keep the Catholics distinct on the opposite side of the river from Fort Garry ; the Catholics are quite a distinct people among the half-breeds ; then they have a portion of them, about 20 miles up the Assinaboin, at what they call White Horse Place. 55^2. Mr. Kiiiaird.] Do you think that Christianity has produced any solid al>idincol. W. Caldwell. 15 June 1857. charter within the limits »)f Ru]K'rt's Lund, its powers arc not rcstriclctl as t(t the iiiiiount upon which adjiuiication may ))f made, the ri^ht^ lield under tlie eliarter lu'Uig ivserved hy the hi«t clause of the Act '.i-o. J, c. GO." .'i.'iqj. Viscount liotli'r/c/i.' What vcar of (iiorgt; the Ith : — I uiulerstand it is the 1st and 2d. rif)\)S- I think you stated that the ])eoph' of the Red River turned out in tlie year 1819; will you state to the (.'t)mnnttee what is meant by tliat expression- — 1 do not know whether this C'ommittee are aware that, in July IHIK, Litrd Grey wrote to me to make in(|uiries into certain allegations of nialadministru- tion on the part of the lludso!\'s liay Company. This l)rouifht me iiumeoo. Mr. Jioebuck.] But was not the chief cause of discontent among the settlers what they conceived to be the maladministration «)f the law .' —That was one of the things stated in the jjetition s»?nt home. .■,60 1 . The nmladministration by Mr. Thorn, as recorder • — Yes. 5002. Was not that the greitt reason of the discontent ■ — That was one of the reasons Jissigned by the petitioners. 5603. You say '* assigned"?— I must say "assigned." 5604 You do not mean by that word to signify your disbelief of the statem nt "r— No, I do not, because I have previously stated that, througli my representation the Company removed Mr. Thorn from office. ,5(105. Mr. Christif.'j Do you know anything at all of the tariff of payment by which the hunters are remunerated ■•— Yes; tlie tariff is arranged by the Company. ')6i)t). It is arr.' nged differently in different districts, is it not: — I cannot speak as to that; 1 can only say a* to Red River; for my knowledge as to other })lact'8 does not go beyond hearsay ; 1 can only confine myself to my own distric'>; r'rom mv ow n kiiowledgc ; from my own knowledge, 2 d. a pound was that which was given until lately ; the last year or two the jienunican became much more scarce, and there was an increase of a halfi)enny. Tiiey gave 2 i . when the excitement occurred, and the time when you came home in 1H.'».'), jour opinion is that the smuggling or illicit trade was rather on the increase .- — I should say so ; that there were a great many more private traders than there had been previously ; openly so. 5614. C/iain>uni.] I suppose in proportion as the population incre.ised in the settlement, the probability is that the illicit fur trade would increase also? — I think so. .Sln.^. y'r. Gror/aii.] When did you leave Red River Settlement ? — I left Red River Settlement in August I8.}.». 5616. How did you return to this country: — I came by York lactcny. ,')tU7. You went out to York and returned by the same route f -1 did, as the easiest route that I could take with a family. ,5618. Was your attention at all called to the route which the North-west Company were acciitonied in former times to use from Red Hiver Settlement to Tort ^^'illiam at the head of Lake Superior f — No ; the only account that I know of a late date, is that of the Bishop of Quebec, who took that route, anil he hud many disagreeables to contend with in taking that route. jtl I (). You described that in going out \ our family were four weeks in an op''ii boat ? — Yes. .•^(i JO. What river did you go up ; was it the Nelson ■ — Yes. ,')tij I . AVere there many obstructions or portages during that journey ? — Thirty-three portages, 1 think, and the longest one was about three quarters of a mile. ,5f)22. \\ ere the portages or obstructions in the river of that very serious nature, that they could not be removed except by considerable trouble and expense 1 — I think they could be removed at some expense. 0.24— Sess. 2. « Q 4 5623. Would Lieut •en), ly. Caldwell. 15 June 1857. fe::i 31J MINUTES OF EVIUKNt E TAKEN HEIOIIE THE ir'c'/lwi/ •''''^•'" ^""''' '* *'^' ^■*'''y t'xi'P'i^ive .' — V«s, hccauxc you would Imvc to build _!_"_ places to locate your nit'ii ; and to ijct food would l)t' ditticult. 13 June 1857. .Vi^4' Von also (U'scrilM'd to us tiiat in tiic sjjring of the year when the snow bc^an to melt about the niigiihourhood of Ked River <-ertain parts of tlifi country were more or less inundated every year f — Yes, some- purtH. .56^5. If the obstruetions to which you have just referred on those rivers were renu)ved, would not that floodinj^, in all human probability, disappear .'-— They could drain the land ; it would be a very great expense to drain it. .'jjiio. If, in fact, the outfalls of those rivers were improved, there would pro- bably be no floods?— I was there during a flood. I wa.s there in 1852. Thev are flooded every '2G years. Then; was a flood in 1800, another in 182G, anil another in 18.'»2. When I was there the whole country was flooded. 5(v.?7. But if the course of the water in the rivers were improved by the removal of these obstructions, would it not pro tnnto diminish the extent of the flood? — Hut we have no obstruction of that kind in the immediate neighbour- hood of Red River : it is on the other side. fifi-'S. The Red River empties itself into Lake Winnipeg :— Yes. 5(129. Lake Winnipeg discharges itself by Port Nelson into the sear— Yes; there are two discharges, but those are remote from the settlement. .'■((ijo. If the outlet to the sea from Luke Winnipeg, which receives the waters of the Red River, were improved, whinth. The Hourccs of the Athabasca and the Hourees of the SaHkatchawnn include an enormous area ot couiitiy, if you lake tliose boundaries. It is in fact a vast piece of land suirouiuled entirely by water. When I heard Dr. Livingston's description of that .xplcndid country which he found in the interior of Atrica within tiie ('([uator, it appLared to me to be precisely the kind of country which 1 am now describinj;. 1 may .state that i passed through a great portion of that country; but of course wliat I am snyinu; as to the larger portion that I am now siieakinc; ol, is not only from my own peisonal observation upon it, but from in(|uiiy upon the !.|)0t, seeing the nature and extent of that country. This large portion which I describe as witliin this area I looked upon as the most fertile portion which I saw. On this map it is very clear. You will see the country entirely surrounded by water. JO4J. What do you mean by " surrounded by water"? — There is just a little [Kii'tion of height of land, which divides the sources of the Maskatchawan from the sources of the Llk River or Athabasca, which does not seem to be sur- rounded by water. ,5643. Sir John Piikinyton.] Are not the sources of the Saskatchawan very near the Hocky Mountains ." — No. ,',(144. Mr. Gro(/uH.] You arc speaking of the ncthern branch of the Sas- katchawan ? — Yes. ,•,04-,. Chairman.] Do you mean to express an opinion that the whole of that territory is suitable, as regards soil and climate, for the jmrposes of cultivation ? —1 was told by the traders there generalJy *bat it was precisely tlie same land :is that which I jjussed through, namely, a rich soil, interspersed with well wooded country ; here being growth of every kind, and the whole vetrotable kingdom alive. ,')(i4t). In what time of the year were you there ? — It was just at the approach of spring ; then I returned again in the autumn, so that I saw parts of the country in both spring and autumn ; but my principal observations were taken in the spring ; the ascent of the rivers gave nie that opjiortunity, .5647. What is the nature of the soil '.' — It was a black mould which ran through that country, evidently a'.luvial soil ; the whole of that country at Cumberland House is entirely alluvial; it bus been described by nearly all the travellers. Franklin has been very rich in his description ; and particularly Ross Cox, and many others ; they speak of the richnesf of that part of tiie eountry. I have here the c)uotations ; there are a few observations ot Ross Cox ; there are also those of Franklin. j()48. Mr. Edward Elliccl Were you personally up at the sources of the Saskatcliawan r — I was not. 5649. Have you been at the Elk River ? — Not at the sources. I have been on the Athabasca Lake- 5ti,5o. \\'a8 that the route which you took with Sir George Back ? — Yes. 5651 . 1 suppose your means of observation were similar to those of Sir George Back? — No; very different indeed. !)6-,2. In what respect? — He went rapidly in a canoe, and I went with a very slow heavy brigade party ; 1 was days on the spots which 1 am now describing. 56,53. Mr. Groyan.] In describing this large tract of country as well adapted fur colonisation, do you include in your observation the climate? — Yes. 5(1,54. Are you able to give us any account of the degree of temperature in winter there? — I believe the average temperature to be about the same as at Montreal in Canada. 505,5. Viscount Goderich.] Do you mean the average temperature on the Athabasca Lake ? — That is the northern boundary; lam now speaking of the very vast area of which the Athabasca is the northern boundary. 5656. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Are you aware of the opinion of Sir George Barrow with regard to the temperature of that region r — No ; I know Sir John Richardson's o])inion pretty well, on which he founded it. 0.24— Sess. 2. R K 5657. Did la .lune ;6j7. , I ^lil. '«ftl' 3M MINUTES OF FA'IDKNCK TAKEN HEFOHE TI!K i?.jriiif, Em|.,m.d. I j June i8-,7. .•jfi^;. Did ycpii lake iiny oliHervntimis your5<>- Are there any otiur niitierali ?— I do not know of any otlur minprnU excipt liniestoni' ; liiiH'stuiu' is apparent in nil directions ; the character of thp country jtresents j^neiss and u:ninitc ; and of course where liniestonc is seen one draws an inunediatf inference as to its productive character. 'J'he hircli, the heeeh and the maple are in ahundanc; ; an! tluTC is every sort of fruit ; tlirrc is likewise barley. ."Jtitio. -hd those trees which you have described apjwar to be well-grown thriving; trees, or di«l they look like trees exfiosed to seven- weather, cramped and cnarlcil ♦ — They were very vast and 8i)lendid in their growth. ,',()(ii. As if the climate suited them well r — Entirely; there is one portioa of liondon, which I believe is familiar, and which I have often pointed out to my own friends as the sort ot country to which I am referring, namely, just at the northern part of Kensington, the magniticent trees around Kensington Park. jlitij. Do you mean to say that the trees which you saw in that district would hear comparison with those trees • — They would bear comparison with anything of the kind. There are enormous rafts coming down the rivers towards Canada in all directions where they have opportunities. 5(163. In the tour in (juestion did you come upon the coal formation at all? — Not at all; I did not touch upon the coals. I know of the existence of it. .5()l>4. Then it is your ojiinion, with regard to that large continent which you have travelled over, that the portions within the limits which you have pointed out are the oidy parts of that district tit for colonisation ? — Not at all ; I mean as arable land. The whole ot the (Jient Fish River, down to tlie Polar Sea, is the linest grazing country in the world, as far as grazing is concerned; of course it is alluvial soil based upon sand, and theiefore not an arable land. 5()ti.). What would he the dimaie there .' — The climate there of course would interfere very largely with it. but still, comparing it with Northern Europe, it has all the facilities of the nortliern |)arts there. ,'i()6t). Mr. Itothiick.] Supposing you draw a straight line from York Factorj* westward until that line touches the l{ocky Mountains, all south of that down to the boundary line of the I nited States, I take to be, in your opinion, perfectly inhabitable: — No, 1 cannot speak nf that. My attention was entirely devoted in those days (and I have paid verv little attention to that country since tli date) to the line of country which 1 passed through. .'j(i()7. You have spoken of the Saskatchawan '■ — Yes, I speak of that. .■jiit'^. Did you go down there ? — I did not. fjfitic). Then you speak of it l)y hearsay r — I speak of it entirely by hearsiav. My in()uiries at (Annberlaiid Ifouse, at Norway House, and at the Athabasca, were, '" To what exteiit d les this go : " I Ibund that in many instable* s in that conntr\ the capabilities of cultivation did not extend for more than two or three miles. Upon my itupiiry at Cuinlierland House, as well as at the Athabasca, they told me that the whole line of country was precisely the same, and they pointed out those divisions which I have just named to the t^'onimittee. ^670. Hut the Athabasca is a good deal north f — Ye^. ,5671. Were you ever at Lake Winnipeg? — I know nothing of Lake Winni- peg ; I did not go to the Hed River locality, although witlun close proximity to it. ^ ,5672. Then you know nothing of the southern portion of that country r— No; I know that to be tlie best part; 1 know it to be very rich. 51173. Mr. Christy.'] Vou have not any doubt but that this district through which you travelled possesses the hiuhest qualities for colonisation, if properly opened up ? — Certainly. ,5(174. First by an exploration, and afterwards possibly by roads ? — 1 do not think It re(iuires any exploration. Yon will find that numerous travellers who have passed through that country are of the same opinion ; there is no doubt about its capabilities of cultivation. 5675. Both SEMXn' COMMllTEE ON 1 HK HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 31.5 are two volumes .V'7.V l^"tl> "" rcffanU its tiutiiritl productH, its cliiuutc, uitd every other reB|ii'('t r — \vn; it Ih iMjual to ariytliiiig vvliicli Caiiadu cuii produce. /itijli. Did yiiu iu your journey tunie in coiifact witli uuy of the native tribes? - VcH, 1 pusHcd throui^h portiona of «;very tril)e in tliu territory. '■,(>77. Will you diHcribc vvhiit tluy were? — Tiie firttt 1 fame amongst were th( ( liippcwttH, bordering upon bike Su|)erior : tliey were then ulmoHt a tiettled |)fo|)ii', so timt I hud very hlth- opportiniity of judi;in:,' as to any eH'tcts upon the fur trade; they appeared to me totally independ*iit of the fur trade, for thiy were living; u|)oi> (isliing, and so on. riifii the Crees, the next northern tribe to the (Chippewa*, were very small in number. I tound that the Crees had ituineiiscly deereased, and that they were ^rudually decreasing; they had decreased very greatly in Franklin's time, and tliey have very considerably decreased since Franklin's time. Ilien the next northern tribe arc the Chipe- wyaus. /-,(J7.S. Did the Crees give you any reason for having decreased? — Yes; their account of the decrease was jirecisely what they told Franklin, that the " fire- water " had destro\ed them all, which is recorded in Franklin's narrative; that that had been the cause of reducing them in numbers. Then there was no doubt another cause operating at the same time, which cause wao that the animals no longer existed ; the beavers had been all driven off. Beginning from the south until you get to the Athabasca, nearly all those forts display to you tvidence of very large tracts of the cnuntry liaving been exceedingly well supplied with game ; and the Indians have entirely gone north ; the Crees have gone north. .5679. Mr. Edward Ellice.\ Are you speaking from your own personal obser- fi. AVn/r. F/i().,M.D. J 5 June 1857. vation i -Yes. ."jfiSo. Were you at those forts?— Yes. 5681. What fort weie you at? — Athabasca. 568'J. Twenty-three years ago? — Yes. It had evidently been a building on a very grand scale, but it was dilapidated. /jiiS;}. Mr, Cfiristi/.] In answering; this (jucstion, will you speak generally of the native population, the Indian tribes; do you think that they are generally decreasing? — No^ I do not. The northern tribes are certainly, many of them, on the increase ; the very far distant tribes, I have no doubt, are so. My own opinion is, that the Chi|)ewyans are on tlie increus;' considerably. The Copper Indians are very much on the increase. The Cbipe»yan race you may say is the northern race dividing the Hudson's Bay terr tory into two parts; they extend from the Pacific to the Atlantic on the other side, and 1 think that the Chipewyan lace is on the increase. I think that ull the other tribes south of that are decidedly decreasing. 5684. Do you think that the southern tribes are decrea«ing, from the circum- stance of their being nmch more dependent upon the Hudson's Bay Com[)any ? — Unquestionably, in many respects, I think. .51)85. Will you describe in what way you think tiiat their decrease arises from their dependence upon that Company? — In the first place they have lost tlieir original mode of hunting; the use of the bow and arrow is gone, the gun having been placed ii. their room, by which they become dependent upon the Company for their powder and shot. To make an Indian really a hunter with the bow and arrow, ;i deerstalker, takes a whole life; you cannot re-teach the present generation ; it takes a whole life to learn to approach at that distance the animal for which tlv nv and arrow come into use. Of course, that is one of the main causes of tueir decline. .^GSG. Then ycu ibink that the anmiunition which they obtain from the Company is a lever I . which they may always be brought to them? — Yes. 5r)87. Because it they did not obtain ammunition they would not obtain the furs of the animals which they kill ?— Exactly so. Then they get into a state of degradation, and they become fishermen. 5688. Do you think that the usual practice of taking the fur-bearing animals is by trapping or by shooting them ?— Of course the (.ompany require them to trap if they can, because there are no holes in the skin ; but they shoot the greater part ot them, 1 think. 5689. Are they very dexterous in hitting them upon the head to avoid injury ? —They kill them in whatever way they can, but mostly with the gun ; there is 0.24 — Sess. 2. R R 2 very .if '1 , 11 1'^ mi 3i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE h' m tfi !!ii Jl. A7»g, Egi)., M.D. very little trapping; the beaver is gone; the beaver was generally trapped ; the beaver does not now exist in the country anywhere. 15 June 1857. .I^go. Mr. Edward Eliice.] What do you mean by "the beaver not existin" in the country " ? — It does not exist in the old haunts ; there are very few beavers in that country now ; I should think it is one of the scarcest animals ; I did not see a single beaver auring the whole of my route, where they were formerly in myriads I was told. 5691. Mr. C/irisfy.] Have you any instance, from your personal knowledge, of any severity of treatment on the part of the Company towards the Indians ? — No ; I do not know a single insttince in the route that I went ; tliey could not do it ; it is an impossibility ; they are on sufl'erance tiiere wiiere I passed through ; the Indian race is by fiir too numerous ; tlie fur trade is only on suffisrance, of course, in these northern places ; tiie post is only lield by a single white man ; the half-breeds will always go with tiie Indian races, and I do not think it would be possible for the Company ever to inflict anything; the Indian race would cut them off at once, of course. ."jOp'^. C/uiirnian.] Had you any means of forming a judgment whether tlic use of ardent spirits prevails much among the Indians ? — No ; ardent spirits were never introduced into the country beyond the Chipewyan races. The Chipewvan Indians are a very numerous tribe indeed ; tliey extend from the Pacific to the Atlantic, and they cut off all the southern tribes. The Chipewyan Indians never wotild takf spirits, and no spirits go through that district of country. The Chipewyan Indians always refuse spirits ; that is a well known fact ; all the soutiiern tribes are highly addicted to them. ,")6();5. Do you suppose that these Chipewyan Indians refuse spirits because they dislike the use of them, or is it from their geographical position that there are means found to prevent spirits penetrating much beyond the southern limit which they inhabit? — It has never been accounted for, but it is clearly a fact. We know that the Chipewyans extend also into the American Fur Company's territory, and the American Fur Company cannot trade with them with spirits. 5(^04. Do those who are in the territory of the United States always eschew the use of spirits? — Yes; I have always understood that the Chipewyan race, in all instances where they come across the American Fur Company, or the Hudson's IJay Company, have refused spirits. ,5tif, -,. Mr. Christy.] Have you any knowledge of the American Fur Company ? — Not the slightest. fiG^t). In the route which you took, can yon tell us anythinsr of the products of that country and of those seas ; do you suppose that there would be any other source ot traffic than that of furs in that northern region through which you passed ? — I have always understood that in the cetacia the country is very rich, the whale and the fat-bearing animals ; the Polar Seas I have always understood to be very rich in the fat-bearing animals, ♦ake the whale, and tiie seal, and the porpoise. .■jti));. Chairman] That can only affect the Indians on the coast .' — Only the Es(piimaux ; it hiis nothing whatever to do with the Hudson's Bay Conipaiiy. Taking the lines of those rivers, I have always understood the Copperiiiiiie River and others to be very rich in galena : the Coppernune River is very rich in co|)per ; coal and galena were also found along the whole line ot' that coast. .oCpS. Mr. Edward Ellicc] That is in the Arctic Sea ? — Yes ; still it is within the liudson's Bay Company's territory as far as the Mackenzie. !)6()i). Mr. Christi/.] You did not hear of the Company having developed those resources at all ? — Not in the slightest degree. One of the main causes of the decline of the natives, I consider, is the fact that they have caught our I'luiopean diseases, which circumstance is recorded by Franklin, by Kichardson, and by everybody almost who lias passed through the country. The nicusles and the hooping-cough carry tht'in off by thousands. The iiiduonza was raiding at the time when I passed throuijii ; the people were dying by liun- dieds. The small-pox has also carried them off. There was not a single medical man of any kind whatever in the country. When I arrived at the Fort, as the yreal iiiediuine man, the amount of labour which I had to devote to the subject was something beyond all conception. 5700. Chairman.] E trapped ; the r not existing ry few beavers als ; I dill not re formerly in lal knowledge, the Indians? t : they could vhere I passed ule is only on eld by a single >, and I do not ig; the Indian lit whether the ent spirits were riie Chipewyan Pacific to the I Indians never country. Tlie 'n fact ; all the spirits because itiou that there southern limit clearly a fact. ?^\r Company's ith them with always eschew hipewyan race, jinpany, or the "■ur Company? of the products would be any through which country is very have always whale, and tlie 1st .' — Only the Bav Company. le Coppeiinine er is very rich e line oi' that still it is within ving developed le main causes ;y have caught Franklin, by ;h the country. The influenza ; (lying by hun- a single medical he Fort, as the c to the subject •00. Chaiivian.] SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 317 5700. Chairman^] Do you know whether any pains have been taken to intro- E. King,Eiq.,M,] duce vaccination among the Indians ? — Not in my time ; but I have understood since that it has been the case ; there was not the slightest vaccination in my 15 June 1857. time. 1 am now speaking of from 1833 to 1836. .5701. Mr. Chrisli/.] Do you think that the introduction of the system of medical men has been since the period when you were in the eountry ■ — Entirely. ■;702. You, as I understand, aie well acquainted with the advantages arising from medicine and its appliances ? — Yes. 5703. Perhaps you are not aware that since your time some of these appliances have been introduced ; such as a doctor at some of the forts ; it has been given in evidence before this Committee that that is the case r — I am not aware of it. 5704, Is there any other point which you would like to state to the Com- mittee, witJi regard to the capabilities of the country?— No; I would only express that in going through that country my position was that of a naturalist ; I came away certainly with the impression that it was a very magnificent country in many parts of it; of course there were barren portions; but upon the whole, up to the Athabasca Lake, it appeared to me to be capable of any extent of cultivation. Governor AVilliams had opened Cumberland House. I found implements in the field and capacious barns ; it evidently had been placed under culture ; and I was told at the time that Governor Williams had been ordered away for his partiality in this respect. ,570,5. We have had some information given us as to Cumberland House ; I directed some r|ucstions to a clerk of the Company who had been through that country ; he told us that the agricultural operations had failed ; that the barns had been built in anticipation, and consequently had not been used?— I never heard that. ,5706. Will you be so good as to tell Committee what you think was the state of things, with regard to agriculture, in that district when you were there ? —On approaching Cumberland House I found a little new colony estab- lished of about 30 persons; a Canadian and Englishman, and half-breeds; they had their fields divided out into farms, and other things. It was described to me by my men that there was a little colony there. I bought a calf of them ; I gave 7*. for it; a fat bullock sold for 12.5. It appeared to me in going over their farms that they were very highly cultivated ; there was corn, wheat and barley growing. They told me at the time that they were ordered off; that the Company would not allow them to go on cultivating ; that it was against the Company, and that therefore the thing was to be broken up. I do not know whether it was broken up or not. T did not return by that route, otherwise I should have ascertained that fact. Then I went on to Cumberland House, and there I found that thev were really borne out in what they were stating, for I found that the barns and the implements were in the field, and that the cows and oxen, and horses, and evcrythini;, had gone wild. I inquired the reason of it; they told me that Governor Williams had a penchant for farming, and that the Company had ordered him off somewhere else ; that is what 1 was told. ,5707. Did you discover on your inquiry that this number of farms, whether they had been established in numerous or single holdings, h m ic and pleaded with me. 5722. Mr. Christy.] I understand that, so far from your being informed that the cultivation liad been prosecuted by the Company, and become profitless, and had been consequently abandoned, you understood that it was private enter- prise, and that it had been ])rosecuted with very great success, to your own positive knowledge, hem having seen the croj)s growing ; and that a complaint was made on the j)art of those persons who were so engaged iu agriculture, that they had orders to quit, and to cease to cultivate the land ? — Precisely. They also said, " When you get to Cumberland House you will have the evidence there that Governor Williams was ordered to withdraw."' Everything had the sign of it, as these little colonists Jjad told me ; there was the evidence that a sudden termination had taken place to the agricultural pursuits there. 5723. It is notorious that cultivation did exist there to a very considerable extent f — Yes ; it cannot be denied, I think. ,')724, It is interesting to know why it was abanaoned ; do you imagine that it was abandoned Ironi its profitless character, or do you suppose that it was abandoned because it did not answer the purpose of the Company to establish acohmy of that sort in that position? — 1 concluded that it was entirely owingto an objection to the colonisation of the country. 5725, Mr. Edward Ellicc] What were the colonists ; were they Englishmen .' — TIhtc was a Canadian and there was an Englishman ; and there were half- breeds at this little colony. ,572(i. What were their names ?— I cannot tell you ; I do not recollect them. If you will allow mc to refer to my book I dare say I can give them to you. You will find the entire account here, which was published in 183G {/landing the first volume (if the IVitnvsss /jook to the Honourable Af ember). ^u2~. Mr. Christ If. \ Are we to understand that you believe that there must have been at least GOO acres of land under cultivation ? — I am quite satisfied that there were at least 1,000. 5728. And e there? — lie !vav from their ild think they 15 June 1857. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 319 ,15728. And you think that the cultivation was successful ? — Quite successful ; R- King, Esq.M.D. the wheat was looking very luxuriant. -,729. Were there any other kinds of crops?- There were potatoes, barley, pic;s, cows and horses. ,730. Mr. Roebuck.'] The wheat, you say, was very luxuriant ; how far north was it ? — I do not know what latitude you will bring it in, oecause I have always restricted myself, as far as that goes, to what you call climate. [ will .suppose that it is a degree and a half north of .Montreal ; about 90 miles of north latitude I suppose it is. ,5731. Mr. Christy. '\ What di-stance from Cumberhind House was it? — This new colony was within 30 or 40 miles, in a direct line, 1 should say. .'",732. Was that the one where you saw the corn growing and where you bought the calf ? — It was the same spot. ,5733. Mr. Edward Ellice.] I will read your account; you say, •' The ground about the house is not only excellent, but fit for immediate culture. The house" (it is in the singular numl)er) " a few years ago was in most excellent repair, and exhibited a very productive farm, the effect of the continued care and attention of Governor \\ illiams, who had a great partiality for agricultural pursuits. A vast change, however, had taken place at the time of our arrival ; the house was all but falling to pieces ; the implements of tillage, and the capacious barns, were silent monuments of waste."' Whose property had those implements of tillage and the capacious barns been, do you suppose r— 1 do not know ; I never asked that. 5734. Do you -uppose that they were the property of small colonists? — No; that has nothing to do with the colony ; I wish you to cut that colony off entirely from the house ; it was attributed by the parties there to Governor Williams in the representation which was made to n)e, that he had done it of his own will, but with what resources I cannot say. 5735- ^V^as the same state of thin<;;s exhibited in the little colony when you came to it ? — Not at all ; it v. as only in its beginning ; that was a most flourishing affair. 5736. Where was it then that the little colonists complained of agriculture having been ordered to cease ? — They complained on the spot ; they appealed to me as a Government officer, thinking that I could relieve them. 5737. Where was it? — On their own little colony. .573S. You say that it was in a most flourishing condition ; how is that com- patible with the statement that they were ordered oflf? — I cannot speak of its being compatible ; I can only tell you, tiiat I found this little colony of fields in the hight'st possible state of cultivation ; 1 bought a calf of them ; and when I was going aw ay they said, " Cannot you help us ? you are a Government officer; the Company have ordered us to quit, and we sh .11 be ruined.'" ,5739. ^"" '^o "0^ know w hether they did quit r — No. 5740. Viscount Godericli.'] Were the farms which you speak of close together? — Ihe whole farm of Governor Williams, which was the most extensive affair, I believe, was about a day's march. 5 741. You have spoken about 1,000 acres being under cultivation; were the 1,000 acres close together or scattered about? — They were all together; they were divided into separate fields, and each man had his particular allotment. 5742. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Was that in this little colony? — Yes. ,'5743. Then at the time when you were there it was flourishing? — Unques- tionably. ,|-,744. Therefore you have no idea at all that that colony has been ruined? — I have not indeed ; not the slightest idea. ,4,: Wr ^t^l ''0 ir 0.24— Sess. 2. K R 4 320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Martis, 23" die Jutiii, 1857. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Blnckburii. Mr. Christy. Mr. Edward Jiillice. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliani. Mr. Grcgson. Mr. Grogan. Mr. J. H. Giirney. Mr. Kiiinaird. Mr. Laboicherc. Mr. L.. ... Mr. Mnthcson. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Roebuck, lord John Russell. Viscount Sandon. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE in the Chaiu. James Tennant, Esq., called in ; and Examined. J. rciiHdN/, Esq. 5745. Chairman.] YOU art' Professor of Mineralogy, I believe; — Yes, at King's College. 23Juiiei8j7. 574t5. Has your attention been at all directed to the mineralogy of British North .America r — Yes ; I have had occasion to examine minerals which have been brought over from time to time, and have oxamineii a very large quantity. In 1850 I examined also a quantity of nrinerals an 1 rock specimens which were brought over by Dr. Rao. The result of that examination is published in Dr. Rae's Journal, at page 215. There is there a list of the specimens. With your permission, I will read over the heads of them. We found specimens of gneiss, telspar, granite, mica-slate, quartz rock with felspar, argillaceous limestone, quartz coloured by oxide of iron and containing gold ; hornblende slate, talcose slate, quartz rock with chlorite and copper pyrites, carbonate and silicate ot copper, svith copper pyrites, calcareous spar, cjuartz and iron pyrites. Those are the prineipa! minerals and rock specimens which are found there. 5747. Has your information with regard to that country led you to form a iiijrli estimate of its mineral resources for practical purposes ? — I believe that minerals exist there in large quantities, but whether it would be profitable to work them would be another consideration. .5748. You have not that detailed information, })robably, upon the subject which would induce you positively to pronounce an opinion upon that point r— No ; 1 should rather discourage than encourage any ]>erson to attempt it under present circumstances, on account of the difficulties. With your permission, I will point out on the map a few of the different districts in wliich these minerai.'i occur. The case which I have here contains specimens of silver and copper from the Lake Superior distr" t. Those have recently been purchased of a German miner. .'i749. ^Ir. Edward Ellice.] On which side of Lake Superior?— On the America" side of Lake Superior ; it is there where the largest amount of copper is founti I believe on the English side it has been unprofitable to work it, but on the American side very large masses of copper have been tbund. 57.50. Chairman.'] Are there any mines actually worked at the present time in British North America? — That 1 am not aware of. I believe they are not worked profitably. 57.';i. Have they been worked at all to any extent r — Yes; I believe to a considerable extent, and that they have proved unprofitable; the large masses of copper occur on the American side ; you get there occasionally a piece ot many tons weight ; 1 have a specimen brought from the same district which weighs 1 ton 14 cwt. ,5752. Are the American mines worked to any extent? — To a considerable extent. 5753* Profitably ?— Only some of them; they go> recklessly to work and I believe SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE IIITDSONS BAY COMPANY. 321 liever — Yes, at lelieve that there are more failures than successes; that is what I have gathered from tlie gentlemen who have been interested in tlie affair. The specimeu of copper which I iiavc is about the size of the top of this table, and eleven inches thick; it is in the entrance hall of the Polytechnic Institution; it is a solid mass ; it was brought over in 1840, with a view of establishing a mining com- ^ any in this country, and they did not succeed ; the copper was then sold merely for its value. 5754. Will you point out any other districts in this territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, where there is reason to suppose that minerals exist to any great extent .• — I would mention the Copper-mine River, from which there is a large specimen of pure copper in the collection of the British Museum, precisely similar to that which occurs on the American side of Lake Superior. HiaFi- '''T. Edward Ellicc] By whom was -.hat specimen brought home? — By Mr. Ilearn; ii is in the glass case No. 1, in the Museum; then if we go to Queen Charlotte's Island, gold has been brought from that island ; in 1850 I was employed at the Pritish Museum to clean and arrange their specimens. I purclinscd for the trustees some specimens of gold brought from that island, precisely similar to the gold quartz which occurs in Australia, and also in the northern parts. When I examined the spt'cimens brought over by Dr. Rae, they were so similar that we could not distinguish the ditt'erence. .575ti. Ci'iairmiin.'] Does the structure of any pan of that country resemble the structure of the mining districts in Siberia"' — I should say very much so. I have brought Sir Roderick Murchison's laruc work on Russia, to show the similarity, from the small number of minerals that we have, and the close analogy which I should expect of the same kind of minerals occurring in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory. Tliere is a very long catalogue of them here. .'»7/i7- Mr. Chrisly.'] Will you tell us the page in which it occurs in Sir Roderick Murchison's book?— In the Appendix, at page 640. ,';7.t8. Mr. Grogan.'\ Do you mean that the minerals mentioned in Sir Roderick Murchison's book are identical with those which you have m mentioned as being found m the Hudson's Bay territory? — Many of them are identical, and judging from the similarity of rocks, which occur in difTerent parts of the Hudson's Bay Verritory, 1 should expect similar minerals to occur here. We have also on the coast of Greenland a great resemblance to many of the minerals. The cryolite occurs there, the substance from which the new metal, aluminium, has lately been obtained ; then wefind lead ore there, in large (juantities, combined with .-.ilver. 57,59. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is that in Greenland ?— In Greenland. I believe that has been profitably worked. 5760. By whom ?— By a company. Mr. Vivian, I think, is a gentleman con- nected with it. fi76i. An English company? — An English company; it is working very quietly ; a gentleman of the name of Taylor is the manager. '^'62. Is it worked at this moment ? — I believe it is at this moment. Mr. Taylor left Eniiland about 12 months since. ,'',7fi ;. Do you know whether it is profitably worked or not ? — I believe it is profitably worked. Mr. Taylor told tne that it was so, when he was iu England 12 months since. 5764. Are those the only persons who have tried to produce ore from Green- land f — No. It was attempted some years previously by some persons from Copenhagen, I think, and they have not succeeded on account of the difficulties of transporting the niattrials from t' 3 hays. Then taking those points, which 1 have mentioned. Queen Charlotte's Island, on the west part of the territory. Lake Sujjcvior as another point, and the Ci)p|)er-mine River to the north of the territory, 1 should expect to find in tlic intermediate districts, where we have a similar class of rocks, many minerals « liicli are analogous to tiioso of the countries 10 which 1 refer. ,'i7t),'5. Mr. Roebuck.'] Is there a geological theory which supposes that in all mountains running north and south, certain classes c? .netals will be found ? That is found generally to prevail ; it is not safe to say that it is alwys so ; we have many exceptions, but in most cases that does occur. 0.24— Sess. 2. S 8 576ti. There J. Teniiant, Esq. 33 June iilj7. 'i! h ■-:i 'i ■ 'hi 'Ill 332 MINUTES GF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE /. TennaiU, Esq. 03 Juuf 1857. ,'',766. There is a theory of tliat sort ? — Yes. S'Sj. Mr. C/tristy.] I understand that, judfjinn- from y77,5' Chairman.] WHEN did you first become connected with the Hudson's Bay Company ?— Taking the question as conneced with the fur trade of North Am rica, my first acquaintance with it was ;ii 1803, when I first went to Cauada. The whole of the Canadian society, every jiersoi. ' ininenceand of consequence there, was then engaged in the fur trade, it beii,^ the only trade of inqjoriance in the country. The trade was curried on with countries iliat are now civilised regitHis, iind where large cities are established. It was carried on upon tiie lakes, Ljike Ontario, Lake Eric, through the Michigan territory, upon the Ohio, the .Miss(mri, the Mississippi, and in ail the countries to the north of Canada. 1 was perlectly acquiiinted with the details of that trade in iHO.'i, and with the persons interested in it. .'5776. Had you before that date been connected with the North-west Coin- pany ? — My connexion with tlie North-we? the nortli-wcst, wliich lies about E similarity :i. Has this ever l)een published ?— I believe not; it was a private transaction between the parties ; then, alter that the competition and the neces- sary consequences ol that competition, the conHict of interest between the Canadian fur traders and the Hudson's Bay Company, became still more violent, and ended in frequent scenes ot bloodshed. Without going into the details which are before the Committee ahead; a sanguinary action took pUce upon the Red River near the Red River Settletnent, in which I believe some 16 or 18 people were killed. Lord Selkirk, by virtue of his assumed power as a magis- trate, seized Mr. M'Cillivray, the principal partner ol the North-west Company at Fort William, and the whole of his property. The scene of confusion in the country became so great that the Government of Canada thought it time to interfere, and at all events ascertain the causes of this dreadful state of things ; a Commissioner was appointid by the Govtrnmcnt of Canada, Mr. Coltmaii. !)7^4. ^^ hen « as that? — The appointment of Mr. Coltman was in the year 18lii. to inquire into and report upon the causes and the extent of the outrage which had taken place; Mr. Coliman made his report to the Government of Canada, which is printed ; it is in the possession of course of the Colonial Office, and I believe is among the papers which have been presented to Par- liament. Mr. Coliman reconmiended, as the only means of restoring peace, that some atten>pt should be made to unite the interests ot the various fur traders in the country ; nothing was immediately done, the state of affairs did not 0.24 — Sess. 2. s s a improve; The Right Hod. E. Elbee, u.r. 03 June 1 857. .! ' . Mi,!-:^; r 'Si. .!:>:|. .".ifl M,ii ;(• : ; l^;/ i. 304 MINUTES OF FAMDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. E. EUics. U.F. i'j June 1857. I ' 1 i i 1 1 i improve ; on the contrary, it became worse ; the state of the companies became worse ; they Inst large sums of money in the compptition, and were brought nearly to insolvency ; not only the companies iti Canada, but the Hudson's Bay Company. In this state of thinjfs, I think nbout 1819 or 1820, lord Bathurst, then Secretary of State for the Colonies, sent for me to consult me whether it was possible to do anything towards promoting: a union between the companies. I undertook that matter, not only at his request, but from obvious considerations of interest, having become unc' " considerable engagements for one of the companies ; and after a very difficult net^otiation, I suciieeded in uniting the interests of the various parties, and inducing thein to agree to carrv on the trade after that agreement under tlie charter of the Hudson's Bay Coni. pany. At tlio same time, I suggested to Lord Bathurst to propose a Bdl to Parliament, which should enable the Crown to prrant a licence of exclusive trade (saving the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company over their territory), as well over the country to the east a* over that beyond the Rocky Mountains, and extending to the Pacific Ocean, so -hat Hny competition which was likely tn bu injurious to the peace of the country ahould be thereafter prevented. From these difl'erent arrangements sprung the present Hudson's Bay Company, which is more, in fact, a Canadian company than an English company in iis origin. The Act then passed under which the Company have since carried on the trade throughout tbe Indian territories beyond their boundaries excln«>v<>lv by virtue of the licence. .•)785. Were those enabling powers given by the Crown in that statute inde- finite in point of time; were they to last for ever? — No; I suggested at the time that as temporary arrangements in these matters are best, wliich give all parties opportunities for reconsideration, the Crown should take power to grant a licence for the trade until the Act of Parliament should be repealed ; but with respect to the company, that the licence should be granted for 21 years only, i.. order that it might be seen during those 21 years whether the experiment answered, and how far it might be expedient to renew it. 5786. Then under that Act of Parliament the Crown would have the power of either renewing this licence to the Hudson's Bay Company, or granting it to «ny other piiriies ? — Yes ; in fact the Crown would have the power, but that is a very limited power, because I took especial care in the Act to guard all the privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company. The Crown has no power by that Act to override the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company within, their own territories. r}'^;. In what year was that Act passed .' — It was passed in 1821. .5788. Were licences granted under that Act ?— A licence was granted to the Hudson's Bay Company, immediately after the passing of the Act, for 21 years, which was surrendered in 1838 ; when the licence wu!» given up, the Hudson's Bay Company applied to the then Government for a renewal of it for 21 years, and after a full exammation by the Colonial Office and by the Board of 'i'rade, of hII the subjects connected virtth this question ; after the Colonial Office had expressed th< nisetves fully satisfied of the manner in which the trade had been conducted by the Hudson's Bay Company, and the manner in which the govern- ment of the country, so far as that depended upon them, had been administered, the C'lown was advised to make a renewal of the rights for another 20 years, which expires, i think, two or three years hence. .5789. VV ho was colonial minister at the time when that licence was renewed? — Lord Glenelg was at the Colonial Office and Mr. Poulett Thomson was at tlie Board of Trade. The application was made to the Board of Trade in the first instatici' as the department to whom matters of trade of that description, especially the licence, were likely to be referred. 5790. \V hilt were the etl'ects produced by this union upon the country r — The ett'ecis ot the union were tliat peace was immediately restored. 5791. \\ ill yon have the goodness to stale to the Committee what was tlie constitution of the company after this union r — The agreement for the partici- pation ul interest in the new company was, that the (>anadian companies, whose interest- had been before united, and the stockholders of the Hudson's Bay Company, should have, as nearly as possible, equal shares. It was then neces- sary 10 coiisid'T the interests of the gentlemen in the interior, who conducted the tiade on both sides, and it was provided that whatever profits should arise from THE SRLIXT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S lUY COMPANY. .la.-J impanies became id wer« brought ut the fludson'g or 1820, Lord 16 to consult me lion between the mt from obvious engagements for I 8uci:eede(l in to agree to carry dson's Bay Com- propo!«e % Bill to if exclusive trade prritory), as well Mountains, and was likely to be revented. From Company, which my in its orii^in. ried on the trade (isivplv by virtue hat statute inde- suggested at the t, wliich give ail e power to grant pealed ; hut witii 21 years only, i,. the pxperiinent have the power or granting it to ower, but that is t to guard all the c) power by that ithip their owu 1821. 8 granted to the let, for 2 1 years, >, the Hudson's it for '21 years, Board of I'rade, 3nial Office had e trade had been hicii the govern- eii administered, nother 20 years, ce was renewed? nson was at the ^rade in the first that description, the country : — Id. ee what was tiie for the partici- )rapanies, whose Hudson's Bay ivas then neces- who conducted fits should arise from from t'lie trade carried on by the Hudson's May Company, for the joint interest o the parties, should be divided into 100 sliares, and thut 40 of these shares should be allotted to the gentlemen in the interior, who commanded the posts, and superintended the general interests of the company, but who supplied no capital. It was provided that a certain number of those shares should be given as whole shares to the hitjher rank of servants, if tiiey may be so called, chief factors, and that half a share should be given to a certain number of gentlemen in the imme- diate rank below them, called chief tra^'ers. .'i7()2. Is that the system upon which the trade of the territory has been con- ducted up to this time ? — 'J'hat is the system under which the trade has been conducted from that time to this. 57()3. Are there no salaries, but are these servants of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany paid entirely hy shares ? — These gentlemen are paid entirely by shares ; there are, of course, other salaried servants below tliem. A council is com- posed, in the interior, of the chief factors, the higher class, which meets every year. It has met at different places, but it meets generally at the Red River. The trade is directed, fir j^ of all, by the Board of l)irectors at home, but, like the East India Company, they have their council in the interior, which regulates the local concerns of the company. That council, which meets every jcar, takes into consideration the accounts of tiie preceding year, audits those accounts, sends orders home for the goods required for the ensuin;^ year's trade, stations the various servants of the company at such posts as the council may think they are best qualified to occupy, and if vacancies occur in the service, recommends to the directors at home the fit j)erson8 then being in the service to succeed to those vacancies. So that, in fact, the w holu uifairs uf the company, so far as the fur trade is concerned, are conducted by that council, subject to the control and gUperintendcnce of the Board of Directors at home. .571)4. What is the number of the members of that council ? — The council is not composed ,)f all these gentlemen, liecause some of them live at distances which might prevent tlieir coming within the course of the year to the council ; but it consists of as many as can conveniently asemblc, who act for the whole body. ,579,';. Does thr.t council net by a majority, or are they merely a consulting council, the real authority resting in the (iovernment? — I am happy to say that there has been such cordiality since the institution of this new Hudson's Bay Company, that there has been no instance of serious ilisagreement. Where there has been a difi'erence of opinion, u representation has been made of that difference to the directors at home than of its haviny; been made any subject of division in the council. 5796. Have the relutions between the directors at home and the council been of an amicable description? — I have never heard of the least want of cordiality. Of course, as in otiier governments, there must have been occasional instances of difference of opinion. 5797. Are the Committee to understand that tlie system is this, that promo- tions, as vacancies occur out there, are made by the council, but that the first appointments of young men who enter the service are made by the din ctors at home? — All appointments are made by the Government at home; the council only recommend. 1 believe they generally recommend two or three names, and out of theso the directors at home select one 5798. Then the council do not fill up a vacancy, that appointment being con- firmed as a matter of course ? — No, they liave no power, except with the consent and coui uriencc of the Board at home. 5799. What doe" the Board at homo consist of? — The Board at home consists of a governor, a deputy gnvcrnor, and seven directors chosen by the stickholders of the company. 5800. Is there a public meeting if stockholders once a year at which the directors arc eUcti d .' — 1 here is a public meeting; once a year ; there is an annual election of the governor and committee at home. 5801. Wiiat is the number of stockholders ? - 1 will supply that information to the Committee. 5802. With regard to your tnide, as to the expense, for instance, which is incurred in managing your trade, what has been tlie effect of the union in that respect? — The capital of this united company, I mean the stock of the com- 0.24 — Sess. 2. s s 3 pany. Tlie Riulit Hon. H. El/ii-f, ji.r. 23 .lune |8,',7. 'i! ,'1 5 ; -1 !■' '^1 i^^ 336 MINUTKS OF EVIUENCK TAKKN BEFORE THR t'<, The Ritjht Hon E. EUice, M. I'. a J Jiini' 1 8^7 }iany, niis< uurced to be 4U<),U(H)/. at thu union; thut ban been increased by pa*, ments in niunev. or by proHis carried to Mod to halt' a million, at whicb the conipany'n stock now staiuls. 'I'ben i will tell you the proHtH of the co>npany, tbat evi'rybwly may hiive all tbat we can tell them upon the subject. I have bad an average talicn for the la^t 17 years. I lie avt^o4. Were the I dians engaged in those quarrels, which the rival compa- nies carried on l)efoie : — The Indians were involved more than engaged in them. Hum was given by the various parties acting in competition to the Indians ami half bleeds; the whole country was demoralised ; the Indian tribes were in con- flict one against the other. In iact, whatever a particular trader carrying on hit business at a particuhir post thought was likely to ruin his competitor, and to advance his own interest, was done without the least regard to morality or humanity. 5805. What lias been the state of things in that respect since r — The state (it the countiy since lias been peace from one end of it to the other. As regards the Indians, >omething has been done fnr the promotion of religion, inoiaiity, and education ; not a great deal, but stiil as much as the means of the country would aflnrd. Peace has been maintained in every part of the country. The Committee will see that one of the provisions of the licence, which I suggested to the Cioverninenf, was that the company should be com- pelled to bring within their jurisdiction, so far as their means enable them to do it, any person accused of any crime subjecting the person committing the same to capital piinisbment or transportation. I think one niati was brought home ; but one or two instanct r only have occurred, during the whole time, in which it has been necessary to recur to that provision in the Act of Parlia- ment. \\'e believe the Indian population rather to have augmented within the teiritory, as an exficptioii to the rule which has existed throughout North America. Everybody lias been catisHed am! contented ; the government of the country has been conducted with less trouble to this Government than that ol any other colony under the Crown ; and so far as I have ever heard from the different authorities who have had the colonial seals, no complaint made against the company to the Colonial (•Office that has been inquired into has not been explained to the satisfaction of the Government. 5806. Might not the necessary «'tt'ect of the whole of the fur trade being in the hands of a single company, be to place the Indians entirely at the mercy of that company with regard to the price which is given to them for their furs " —Of course it must be so ; it must either place them at the mercy of this company, or leave them at the mercy of whichever competitor for the trade shall give them most gin or rum, to set them at war one with the other. .SSoj. Do you believe that while competition took place, the use of spirits was ccmstantly employed on both sides ? — Constantly. ,j.So8. Do you believe that to be inevitable ? — So far inevitable tiiat it would bu impossible to prevent it ; the Hudson's Bay Company have taken every possible precaution to prevent the introduction of spirits, but if an American comes across the border, if there is a question and contest about a trading post on the frontier, the universal article used to corrupt the Indians is spirits. ."(Scy. Are you at all acquainted with the condition of the fur trade in the territory of tiie United States ? — I believe it is comparatively extinct ; there is a little fur trade upon the Missouri. Jt was a country formerly where beavers and otters, the animals living upon the tish of the rivers, were in great abun- dance ; they are nearly destroyed ; there are still animals that follow the herds of buffalo, wolves and animals of that kind; but I remember the time when half a million SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 337 le use ot" spirits I million of deer skins came from some of the now most civilised parts of Michi^n tn Montreal ; tliat is put an t*nd to almost entirely. 5810. Has the supply of peltry at all fiillf>n off, or lias it augmented witliiii the territories ol the Hudson's Bav Ciiin|)aiiy i — Thi! supply of pulti , r.nce thu earlier period of whicli I Hpokc tu the Committee in IBOli and 1804, lias diniin- jghed probably onc-lialf, if not two-thirds. 5811. Do you mean within the territories of the Hudton's Ba\ Compjiuy (" — No, within all the ooiintrieH to the northward of (lanada, inriuding ('aiiada itself All the countries easily re.iched have been entirely destroyed. The valuable trade of the Hudson's Bay Company is in the remote districts, where nobody havmg the power to interfere with them, they preserve the animals just M vou do your pheasants and hares in this eouiitry. They encourage the Indians only to kill a certain number ol animals when in good season for their furs, and not to kill ho many as to interfere with the breed ; and that is now the most profitable part of the Hudson's Bay (Company's trade. It come^t from very remote parts. ,812. Do you mean that the decrease of one-half has been in quantity or in value ? — In bath. 5813. Do you think that under the present system which you are pun uing in the remoter parts of your country, the fur-bearing animals are diminisling? —On the contrary, they are rather increasing. .';8i4. Does this system of strict preservation of the animals apply to the whole of your territory, or cmly to a portion of it ? — It is impossible to'appl ' it to the whole. Wiiere there are various tribes of Indians, if you could indiii has cuiiie under dMciiH8ion, and 1 think the nniverHul opinion, witlioiit an cxeiption, of tht-Hc eminent lawyers h, th»t the proprietary rights of the company cannot be dixputed. Some of tlieMe opinioiiH niaintuin the ri({hl ot tlie (Vown, nt the time of the churter, to ^ive an exrIuMive ri^ht to trade, founded upon the fuinouH decision of " The H)i8t India (Jom- pany V. Sands," hy Lord Jefiery. Otiier hiwyers are doubtful upon the point; but it is Hcurcely necessary to in pany to take that course; therefore I hoM that to be an extr'niely doubtful questiou. Uut none of tbesu eminent lawyers, and no lawyer whose opinion I have ever heard quoted, either lor or against the company, or taken either for or against them, have expressed the leust doubt as to the proprietary rights granted under the charter. 5S'i4. By " proprietary rights," you mean the right of possessing the soil as distinguished from the exclusive right of trade? — I mean the same rights which were granted to other proprietors ; Honourable Members are awiire that this is the last proprietary government in existence. There were, I forget how many, proprietary governments in America, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and various others; but this is the only case remaining of a proprietary right which hiw not been, somehow or other, either purchased or amalgamated with the general rights of some one of the colonies in America. ."iSas. Do you conceive the rights of self-government to have been given by the charter? — Certainly; and the country has been govorned, so far as the Hudson's Bay Company's territories are concerned, under those rights; there bus never been any other authority for the government of the country or for the administration oi justice ; it being always understood that the Crown took the power, if it should see right, in the Act enabling it to grant the licence, to non- vtitute an independent magisterial power, which it has never exercise ;r "niely doubtful r vliUHC opinion taken either for 'uprietarv rightii Bsing tlie Moil as kme rights which a ware that thiH e, I forget how innsylvHuin, and tury right which imated with the been given by ], 80 far as the ise rights; there Quntry or for the Crown took the c licencu, to oon- ercised. penalty, to send Canada ; to what tion applies only rtered territories, any should send B always thought to life and pro- jf things admits leen made. If in the courts of lat there is any de a description lany ; but in all a great many of justice lias been y, and to satisfy exceptional mal- ration of justice )m you send out ;t men we could ntlemen, clergy- colleges of Scot- lerks, and then somi- of these You have heard whom my father interest in the much the habit ty persons con- ery much when we we look to the future security of the country, whether that will be found to be good policy. ",Sjo. Are the appointments lumle by individual directors? — No, four or five gentlemen sit round a table, and I believe if anybody rncommcnds a competent ynnnf; man, there is never any division of opinion as to appointing him to that ottice. My i>on recommended a buy, the son of our forester in Scotland, brought up at our own sciiool, where he turned out a (|uick, clever boy ; that boy had never seen a town, nor known anythins{ of the vice and habits of towns; be has gone out as an apprentice, and will rise, if his merits justify the council in pro- moting' him, to be one of our chief men. ',S;ji. Fs the conduct of these young men closelv watched when they are out thire: — It comes perprtualiy under the view first of the council and the Gover- nor, and then under the view of the Guvernment at home ; and it is so much for the interest of all parties to have good, zt-alous, active men, in the mana>j;e- ment of affairs at such a di-ttance from all human society, that that is the best security for good selections. '',S3J. From the nature of your trade, I suppose the moral conduct and good sense of your agents arc (|uite indispensable? — Quite indispensable, and more- over, it is very essential to have men who can obtain influencu over the Indians; if it i< fouiul that any man at a particular post gets indolent, inattentive, or has too intimate relations with particular Indians, or if his habits are supposed in any other way to interfere with his good aiituinistration of the post, he is instantly changed. 58;}3 Have you c er considered the question of a boundary between your territory and ( anada? — Yes, I ha' e considered it very much. Until you have some decision of a court of la^" against it, you must take the words of the charter. At that time the Crown i.ad undoubted right to grant what it. could graitt in point of land 1 aking th grant in nnexiun with the various occasions on which the Legislature and theGovcrnme ' if this country have been cautious to preserve, and to save tin* rights of '].:: IiiitNon's Bay Company, I do not think there can be any doubt as to the i.n.undaries "f tlie Hudson's liay Com- p. y. I have read a paper whii ^'r. Draper delivc 1 to this Committee upon the subject, i'he only ditl'oren c w) ich I should have with .Mr. Draper is with regard to the line which he wou 1 suggest as the boundary between the Hudson's Bay territories and some unknown territory (because it cannot belong to (Janada) bounded by the line of 49". Mr. Draper founds his inferences as to the southern boundary of tlie Hudson's Bay territories on some discussions which took place at an early period between the French and Knglish Governments relative to the eastern boundaries on the Labrador coast. At that time I do not believe that either Government knew anything of the country to the westward of Lake Superior. Then if ynu come down to the Act of Parliament constituting the boundaries of Canada, which I hold, aftei all, to be the great authority upon which we must proceed, the Act of Parliament defines the limits of Canada to be bounded westward by the Mississippi, and thence to where the line touches the lanils granted to the Hudson's Hay Company. .')S^4. Mr. lioebuck.] What Act of Parliament is that?— It was in 1774, an Act of Parliame ' ">*" 14 Geo. 3, c. 83. In 1794 the treaty of peace and commerce and i.-.' ,jation was concluded between (Jreat Britain and the United States. In some of tlie treaties or Acts of Parliament, the western boundary of Canada is described. The boundaries of the province of Quebec, as described by 14 Geo. 3, c. 83, ire described on the west and north, " along the bank of liie said river," which is the Ohio ; " westward to the banks of the Mississippi, and northward to the southern boundary of the territory granted to thu merchants adventurers of England trading to Hudson's Bay." But I take this question of boundary to be a question of no importance at all. If the Province of Canada requires any part of this territory, or the whole of it, for purposes of settlement, it ought not to be permitted for one moment to remain in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company; and, at the same time, less money than would be spent in a litigation upon the subject would be sufficient to indemnify the Hudson's Bay Company for any claim which they could have in giving up any disputed part of their territory. We attach very much importance to these questions, which are in fact of no importance in themselves. It would be much more, for instance, for tho interest of the Hudson's Bay Company to be upon a cordial and good understanding with the 0,24 — Sess. 2. T T Government Thx Risht Hon. £. Edit; M.r. 33 JUM 1857. 3 JO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. E. ElKee, m p. «3 June 1857. miwt 'Mi Government of Canada than to have any disputed question of rii;ht with respect to a certain (juantity of bind, whicii can be of no use to the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, and which mav be of use to the people of Canada. ,<).S3.'). C/imnnan.^ You are of opinion that it would not be difficult to come to an arranj^ement by which the extension of Canada, by way of settlement, minht he provided for. over any portion of the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, which is adjacent to Canada, and adapted for such settlement ? — Not only would there be no difficulty in it, but the Hudson's Bay Company would be too 'jlad to make a cession ot any part of that territory for the purposes of settlement, upon the one condition that Canada shall he at the expense of governing it and maintaiiiing a good police, and preventing the introduction, so far as they can, of cumpeiition with the fur trade. 583t) I>o you mean liy that that you think that it woidd be advantageous for the company to withdritw as it were to the more northern part of tlieir territory, Hnd to leave for gradual settlement the southern portion of their country ?— I am of opinion that the existence and maintenance of the Hudson's Bay Com|)any, for the purpose of temporarily governing this country, until you can f( rm settlements in it, is much inore essential to Canada and to England than it is to the company of adventurers trading to Hudson's Bay. ,')^37. You are well acquainted with Caniida, i believe? — V^ery well. 5^3^- What power do you conceive that Canada would have at present of governing, say the Red River and the country beyond the Red River? —I should say that it would be extremely dithcult, and tliat Canada, upon a full considera- tion of the circumstances, and after a short experience, would entreat ihe Hud- son's Hay Ccmipany to resume their government after they had made the experi- ment. 'I'here are a great number of circumstances connected with that coimtry which do not at first strike ordinary observers. First of all, there is the imme- diate viciniiy of our neighbours, the Americans. A good deal of evidence has been given to this Committee "ith respect to the facility of establishing com- munications between Canada and the Red River. Nobody is aware of the difi- culties of such communications ; the money it would cost to make practicable roads, to establish and maintain posts in an unsettled country durin:; winter, cannot be calculated. The natural communication with the "tted River, and all the prairie countries, is through America; and however you may desire to establish political boundaries and communications at present, no gentleman upon tliis committee is aware how soon events and incidents may throw the traffic into the channel intended for it by nature. F'or instance, I have here a map of Minnesota, in which the most northerly post occupied by American troops is placed within 330 miles of our boundary, and there is no kind of obstacle, either of river or of lake, or of a ridge of mountains, to obstruct the facility ot eonnnunication between Miimesota and the Red River; it nmst he the natural way through which that country will be civilised and settled, if it 13 ever civilised and settled. .SS39. Would th>:' maintenance ot tiie frontier be is easily kept up by Canada as by the company, in your opinion? -That is a qntstion of expense. I have not the lea^t doubt, although 1 have no authority to make statements upon this subject, that the Hudson's Bay (..'oiopany would conii: to very easy terms to transfer the Red Ri^er Settlement to Canada f Canada would only protect them and govern the country ; at the same time the Hudson's Bay Company have a large mass of property there which they re purchased from Lord Selkirk in 1830, for a considerable sum of money. They thought it better to e.xtinguisli Lord Selkirk's right, and not to have siperate interests in the country. I'hey have laid out a nood deal of money in making the present establishments- I do not think tliat tliey are profitable to them in any way. There can be no doubt about the R^l River Settlement being within their territory, unless you can sujipose that this geographical line which was to run from Labrador, cut off a part of the territory. ,5S4o. i suppose the Hudson's Bay Company discourage having any settlement, as far as they can, within their territory "r — The Hudson's Bay Company, like all other peo|)le, would like very much to have any settlement that was pr tiiable. This settlement was made by Lord Selkirk; it was an unwise speculation, settling jieople in a country where they could send no produce to market, where they could be ill communication with no neighbouring settlement, and accordingly it has failed. 5841. Taking SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 331 5841. Taking all the circumstances into consideration, bow do you think it would be desirable to deal with that question of tlie Red Hiver Settlement? — I think it would be very much the best thins? for this country and for Canada to leave it as it is ; but I should be very much disposed to consult the Government of Canada upon the subject, and to put Canada in communication with the Hudson's Bay Company, if Canada desired any alteration in the government. /;842. Supposing it is left as it is. do you think there is no danger of the Americans findmg their way across the frontier, and that some day we shall find ourselves with a large American settlement within our own territory, which miiy give rise to very great embarrassment ? — But how would Canada protect you I'ronithat? The danger exists and must exist. Yon cannot guard against it. It being a prairie country, and there being no obstacle to prevent the Americans roaming over it, how would Canada be able to prevent it .' ,5843. I l)elieve it is the case that Americans emigrate very much into Upper Canada, but that has not piei'ented Upper Canada from becoming a good, loyal, Engli*; establish themselves on the land ; there are very tew people there. It is a gieat misiake to suppose that that is a very inviting part of the country. I ha^e more experience than most people of tlie mode of settle- ment in America. I have never known a settlement succeed which did not succeed in continuation of some settlement which almost reached it. 1 have known vory adventurous Americans, whom we call squatters, the pioneers of civilisation, establish themselves in advance of settlement, in hopes of its over- taking them; but that forms no settlement to pay a i>ovcrnment ; it niu-t be followed by a certain establishment of people, society sutficient to provide for its own wants, ami to provide the means of taxation to carry on a government. 584(1. The way in which the Americans aovern a territory is very sinple and inexpensive, is it not, before it becomes a State? — Yes ; but their territories are in very different latitudes to this. 5847. Is the climate so very different between the Minnesota territory and that of the Red River, and the neighbouring country r — It is only ditierent, inasmuch as the Red River is further north ; but even the Minnesota territory is not a very 'nospitiible country ; and the most northern settlement in Minnesota nearest to the Red Riv-^r Settlement, is five degrees to thvas found upon reference to ibese acts, imposing duties, that they had no jjower to imjjose them ; then the mitter was referred home, and application was made to the Colonial Office. The Cohoial Office sidd, " ^'ou must call a free legislature, and live to < verv man wlio has 20 acres of land a vote for the re' I'sentation m that legislature." Tho Hudson's Bay Company answered very properly, " We can call a legisliiture of oar o"n dependents ; there are no people not under our immediate influence, and if w( call what you dei^uninate a free legislature, there will be an immediate complaint iii England that under the pretence of free institutions, wc liave set up an arbitrary government." My advice to them was, to make a representation 1 believe the JRight honourable Chairman was Scciet.ary of State at the tiui.'), that if such a legislature was to be set up, it should not be set up by the lludson's IJay Company on iheir responsibility, but that it should be set up on the responsibility of the Secretary of State, tlie Secietaryof State being warned by the Hudson's Bay Company, that such a legislature nev( r could be a free legi-laiure, in the sense in which a free legislature can be understood. <;8.-,r^. Was it not established biicause it was considered that any other mode of proceeding would be absolutely illegal?— It was established, because you did not THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, ^sry their possessions which Lord Grey as the saving of y Company, of tiiat L""ant are lent. When the oke to me on the ' (lid not consult I expense of the he lluiison's Bay len the monopoly ;rms of ihe tyrant, of the land, and it of the country, 16 whole scheme, ider a pound an ee all the misery IS and capricious ;s in land in our die. Any person ike a pound from him all tlie little rhe land is of no these restrictions A'ith the colo.iies. J to contend wiih. opol,v on tlie one 3lic powers which d be, that the Iree ly free leuiisiature with the establish- mstances of what s have been sent in the be!;iniiing, he perfect know- ngements, then I cd. time ? - No; the t to constitute a verof ihe ( rown: came to a staiid- irits, or to issue abuse of spirits. icy had no power i cation was made a free lci;islature, rc'i'scntation nt y properly, " We )le not under our Icgislaiure, there pretence ot free vice to them was, lan was Secretary up, it should not bility, but that it ;, tlie Sceietary of iich a )eii;islature legislature can be ,t any other mode because you did not not choogc to go to Parliament, in the best way you could : but that is not a way which can succeed in the end. 5X56. When does the arrangement e.\pire by which the Hudson's Bay Cona- paiiy hold Vancouver's Island? — I do not know when it e.xpires; but the sooner some determiiatinn is taken with respect to Vancouver's Island the better; it is a most interesting position and pos.session ; it can do no good "under the hands of the Hudson's Bay (Company ; they have no means to apply to it ; they would sink their whole capital if they were to do more than tliey have done; they have already expended some 80,000/. of capital in sending persons as settlors, and miners to work the coal-mines, and in doing other things Mhich they were urged to do by the Government and the puldic in con- spfjuence of their having accepted a grant of the island ; everything hitheno has been outlay ; there has been no return ; that will not go on ; they must stop, and therefore the sooner the public reconsider the whole question of Vancouver's Island the better. I beg the pardon of the Committee for offering an opinion upon that point. ,')8.57. VVe are glad to hear your opinion? — The sooner the public re-enter into possession, and the sooner they form establishments worthy of the island, and worthy of this country, the better. From all the accounts which we hear of it, it is a kind of 1 ngland attached to the continent of America. 5858. Do you mean to express the opinion that, with regard to Vancouver's Island, you titink it should be established as an English colony, and governed upon the ordinary system of English colonies? — I think that it should not only be on the ordinary system of English colonies, but that it should be the principal station of your naval force in the Pacific. It is an island in which there is every kind of timber fit for naval purposes. It is the only good harbour (and it is an excellent harbour) to the northward of San Francisco, as far north as Sitka, the Russian settlement. You have in Vancouver's Island the best har- bour, tine timber in every situation, and coal enough for your whole navy ; the climate is wholesome, very like that of, England ; the coasts abound with fisii of every description ; in short, there is every advantage in the islaiir of V^incouver to make it one of the first colonies and best settlements of England. Political questioiis are connected with making a settlement in that quarter, which I will not enter into. 58,5() Do you think that it would be desirable, in the event of Vancouver's Island being made a colony, to connect with it a jiortion of land upon the adjacent const? — No, I think you would have quite abandant work in Van- couvers Inland ; the Indians a e rather difficult of management upon the adjacent coast. Wherever Indians live in great abundance, they are not very easily dealt with. They live in very great abundance from the (|uantity of fish which the country produces, and tlicy have been very troublesome both to the American navigators and to our navigators, and I think ic would be very advisable to keep the whole Indian country under the management of the Hudson's Bay Company until you wanted to settle it. When you want to settle it, then of course it should be taken trom the Hudson's .May Comjiany. ;)i"*'>o. If there is laud, as has been representeu to this Committee, on the adjacent coast as good as that in Vancouver's Island, which might be attractive to settlers, would it not 1 • • xpedient, in your opinion, to provide for the regular government of that couiiny at the same time that yoa did so for that of Van- couver's Island? — If this country would really undertake it, I think probably at first it would bo advisable to conline your operations to Vancouver's Island, because you would rind that quite as much ^is you could manage; but I am quite sure that the moment you could extend fiie si ttlement to the adjacei.t shore yo-i '• .i!,id to do it; my doctrine is, that theie is not an acre of land lit for settlenu / which should be l<< 1 t under any other domip'on than that of tho actual settle: •, wherever it may he -.ituated. 5St)i. You do not think that it would b. .vise to connect the country to the north or the westward of the Rocky Mountains with Vancouver's Islani^ • — In legislating (for you must legislate ; you cannot go r ^> \>.itliyour present c is'i.u- tinn for Vancouvi r's Island), I should think that r v ould be cjuite 1 ij;'!i; i.-iat the (.iovernmont should assume entire control of the whole country ; li'if the Lef;i8latur,. at Vamouver's Isl md, or the Government at Fort Vancouver, siiould govern the whole country, even if the licence was left with the Hudson's Hay Company. 0.24 — Sess. 2. T T 4 5862. You The Right lion. E. EUice, M.p. 03 .Inne 1857. 1^: ■ ^ ! ■:M mt^ :h'.':l' ir{:.,;; ■M'-'n 7* Mi Hi!; t. 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE I'liL Right Hitn. B. Ellice, M.p. S3 June 1857. 1%\ ''"ff I lii Hi 1 j; L. 5863. You mean the whole country up to the Rocky Mountains ? — The whole adjacent country to the Rocky Mountains. The Hudson's Bay Coinpiiny carry on a considerate trade now from Vancouver's Island and tiie adjacent coast, more in Hsh, timber, and provisions with the South Sea Islands, than any great quantity of furs that they collect there. 1 heard a geologist examined hers with respect to a most speculative subject, viz., of what practical value these minerals may be throughout this country ; for instance, copper upon the Copper .Mine River, which never can be brought to market; still wo have had gold from Vancouver's Island ; the Hudson's Bay Company have brought gold home, and we have reason to believe that gold may he found in a great part of that country ; nobody has ever been there except the Indians. 5863. Would yiHi iln,\ti any limit between the land given to the colony and the land simply r'-servtd fv fu: tradi' ;" purposes ? — No limit. I would put the whole under oti<" government, it you ;»r ■ to have a sjovernment there. Tiie only reason why I ti'.in!'. ''ut you shouiii maintain the Hudson's Bay Company, wherever you maintain ihem, is w^l^>^^ -ou can find no better instrument for jour piii'oose ; il yai, rac lO i ve :■. :' ' a colonial government in Vancouver's Island, i should include in it the vv '•<..!!. at those territories, even if I gave the licence to 'rade to 'i3 Hudson's Bay ( ompany, ,';864. Do you think that the right of exclusive trade by the Hudson's Bay CiMnpany could be rendered compatible with the territory being given to a colony? — U iiy should not it bt so ? It is ccnipat: le with the governtnent of this country, and it vn Id be om[)atibIe Vvitn th., government of a colony. I do not think it shi.tild exist one hour longer thp!> the colony, or the Legislature or Govern- ment of that • Tjrti y though' 't fcr their good. The Hudson's Bay Company have no ^"aim '0 it; tt is not -'..e thf; Mudson's Bay territory. I may add, that beyond ihc Hudson's B;.y Company being paid for their outlay, which payment they are entitled to under the agreement with the Crown, I do not think they have any claim upon the public on the west side of the Rocky Mountains, other- wise than as you may think it for your interest to employ them. .^Sti/j. When you speak of a Government being given to Vancouver's Island, in the event of its being made a British colony, I suppose you mean those popular institutions whsch the colonies have given to them ? — Certainly ; but then you should put an trd to the monopoly of the land, and let the institutions deal with the land of the country according to their discretion. 5866. Is there anything which you wish to add to what you have stated ?— I think there is one important considera; ion connected with the licence. 1 did not suggest i'li; Act i>\ Parliament to enable the Crown to grant this licence merely to prevent competition from Canada with the Hudson's Bay Company ; 1 thought it advisable that, at all events till some better arrangement could be made, the country should be kept perfectly at peace ; and but for the monopoly granted to a particular class of our subjects, the American citizens have as good a riglit to trade with the Indians within our territory as the English subjects have. It is not only the Canadians v/ho would come in competition with the Hudson's Bay Company, but every American citizen would have as good a right to trade with our Indians as he has with our civilised people at Toronto and Montreal, and you couUl not exclude him ; if you put an end to the monopoly, you vwc be open 10 toJi petition with every Ame;ican citizen. That was one of my objects in recommending the licence. 5867. If you think the exclusiv licence to trade advisable for some lime in these remote districts, do not you ihi. k that if you gave a large tract of that country as a colony in the vicinity of Vancouver's island, the inevitable result would be, that it would be thrown open to competition ? — On the western side of the Rocky Mountains you must deal with it as the general interests of the couritry require. The interests of the Hudson's Bay Co-;. ,ii\y must not ';8 considered in t!r.pprison with the general interests of *hi (junti-y. ^ am not ynu should continue the li . nee to •' Hudson's Bay C n- :ier than it is for the public intf .it that you shouid cuu- buck.] Then you draw a distinction between the western and here to plead pany one hoi tinue it. 58O:. ?.T-, the eas* -. •;, .. of the'Hocky Mountains?— I draw a great distinction, inasmuch as the i ^ivliioA b Bay Company have no exr I isive rights whatever to the westward of the R( , ' Mountains. 5869. li .1: siiivdd turn out that the charter is an illegal charter, then the condition '*•,■ THE lountains ? — The I's Buy Company and tlie adjacent Islands, than any )log;ist examined it practical value copper upon the still wo have had ave brought gold in a great part of ;o the colony and I would put the there. The only s Bay Company, er instrument for lit in Vancouver's ven if I gave the :he Hudson's Bay ^iven to a colony? nt of this country, I do not think it ature or Govern- ■\a Bay Company I may add, that y, which payment do not think they Mountains, other- n. incouver's Island, ean those popular ly ; but then you itutions deal with 1 have stated ? — I icence. 1 did not lis licence merely pany ; 1 thought luld be made, the poly granted to a od a riglit to trade It is not only s Bay Company, with our Indians nd you could not eu lO to Ln petition ecommendiug the for some time iu rge tract of that inevitable result the western side interests of the i.>v must net ';3 )uutry. * am not dsou's Bay C ■ n- !Ott should cuu- the western and inct'on, inasmuch r to the westward charter, then the condition ;e. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 337 condition of the Hudson's Bay Company on the eastern side is the same as it is on the western side ? — To be sure. That o])inion must be qualified. A company which has been in possession for 200 years of the whole of that country, and wiiic.'h has done its duty to the public, would have some claim upon the con- sideration of the public even if its charter was declared illejjal. ■jSjo. That is to say, that wrongful possession for 200 years ought to be paid for? — When you i dk of a " wrongful possession," the word "wrongful" would be used against liic opinion of every lawyer of eminence ever consulted upon the sul)ject. .-,871. 1 started with the supposition that the charter was proved to be illegal ? —Yes. 5872. I want to know your opinion, supposing it to be illegal, what would be the condition of the Hudson's Bay Company on the eastern side of the Rocky Mountains, as compared with the western side.'' — The same absolutely, witli the qualification which I have stated, of the consideration which the Hudson's Bay Company ought to have for their long possession of that country upon equitable grounds. /■,873. You droppi'd a phrase which rather startled my car, about Vancouver's Island ; you talked about compensation ? — Yes. ,■,874. Compensation for what'.' — It is no compensation; the Hudson's Bay Company accepted the grant of Vancouver's Island upon the condition that if they were required to surrender it again, the money which they laid out hondfdc should be repaid to them by the public; there is no other compensation. ,',875. 1 suppo>e that that was to be money laid out beneficially, not merely money spent ?— Laid out to promote tlie colonisation and improvement of the island. 5876. And if it should be proved, that so far from promoting the colonisation of the island, they have thrown every obstacle in the way of colonisation, then they ought not to have any compensation ?— 1 do not say that. This is proceed- ing upon an hyjjothesis. As far as my information goes, they have done every- diing which they ought to do. f,877. 'Jhe hypothesis may be erroneous, but I want to know what the con- clusion isr — I can give no opinion upon an hypothesis which I believe to be erroneous in every one of its details. 5878. Is that the rule which you invariably pursue? — It is tho rule which I adopt generally. ,")87i). Do you not take an hypothesis and argue upon it ? — If it is a reasonable iiypothesis, in my opinion, certainly. 0880. In your opinion, then, it is not reasonable to suppose that there hn s been any difficulty thrown in the way of colonisation by the Hudson's Bay Com- pany witli regard to Vancouver 'f> Island ? — I know of no difficulties that ever have been thrown in the way, and I think I know as much of the question as most people can. 1 s])eak with impartiality, because I think that the Hudson's Bay Company ought not to have accepted the grant. 5881 . 1 think you stated that the Hudson's Bay Company was more a Canadian than an English Company r — Yes. 588J. WTiat did you mean exactly by that .' — I meant that, upon the union of the companies, the whole of the Canadian interest had been transferred to and incorporated with the Hudson's Bay Company ; that so far, it was the Canadian trade, in fact, which was incorporated with that of the Hudson's liay Compciny. ,5883. I think you also stated that, at the time at which you went to Canadii, all the leading peo])le of Canada were engaged in the fur trade ? — Yes ; I will tell you tlieir names ; they are of gnat eminence. ,5884. 'Jliey did not include any of the seigneurs of the country ? — I beg youv pinion ; Mr. AJonteur, a seigneur of the country, was one of the partners of tiic -North-West Company. '■S8;,, The great body of the seigneurs had nothing to do with that trade? — Til' ireat body of the seigneurs in Csuuida never had anything to do with trade at ail. ."iS^O. Tlicn you meant merely the trading community '. — I meant all the English and Scotch people who established theuiselves in Canada, and established trade there (for f hen- was no trade befoi')) ^^ter tlie treaty of 1783; it has remained in their hands ever since. o.'J4— Scss. 2. U u 5887. You Tlie Riufit Hon. E. y.llicc, :.t. V. ■2T .'uiie «8.-,7. 'm'M ;iVi \0:i\ $ i '*•,• Ml 3S8 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN' BKEORE THE The Right Hon. £. EUice, M.P. •3 June 1857. i"™! .'1887. You referred to the Act passed in 1821 : do you know that by the fifth section of the Act, the powers of the Canadian judiciaries were extended over the Hudson's flay Company's territories? — They were not extend* d over the Hudson's Hay Company's territories at all; you will find tliat they ure excepted. ."jScSS. Then if 1 nnd from this hook tiie following words, this book is erro- neous : '• And bo it declared and enacted that the said Act passtd i»i the 43d year of the reicii of his late Miijesty, intituled, An Act foi- extending' the jurisdiction of tiic courts of ju>tice in the provinces of Lower and Upper Canada to the trial and punishment of persons guilty of crimes and offences within certain parts of North America adjoining to the Siiid provinces, and all the clau!own has appointed justices, at the recommendation of the Hudson's Bay Company, in ths parts of the country under the licence which are without the territories of the Hudeoii's Bay Company, but it never has granted a commission within the terri- tories of the Hudson's Bay Company. 5889. 1% that the gloss which you put upon Ihcae words, " An Act for extending the juris the said provinces, extended to the territories granted bycbtaler to the said (lovernorand Company, and it is expedient that such doubts should be removed, and that the said Act should be further extended " r - Yes. .5Sy3. Theref .' that was the purpose .' and I remember th 't 'iggested at the ensuri that ; to the t ;t such me; shall be admiiiisteied ti. .eitr satisfaction. ,}N)4. Mr. C/iristj/.^ Hith reference to that matter, did not you consider that the of doing that; — It was for the pu. (. time, " lake every iwt. > )u canto .'ou may be able to employ, justice SELECT COMMiriKI': ON T.,., »;crDS()NS BAY COMPANY, .ijy the Compnny etitereil into an obliur.ion to send nil criminal cases, anri those civil cases involving!; an amoun' above '200/., to he tried in tiie Courts of Canada ? — I helieve it was, whei'dvcr they were required to do so by the (!rown : 1 f«rj;et the exact mokIh, I)Uf. i'. was intended that that oblij!;ation should exist whtnever the Seereiary ot' State, I think, shouhl require it ; the Act of I'ariia- Tjieiit speaks for itself. /-(Sfjr,. Mr. Roebuck. \ Vou stated, 1 think, that the sum derived as profit by the Companv for 17 years, aimnmted to something more than (iO,(KX>/. ? — Yes. ,'',8any are a lap^e trading establishment, and they emphiy even more capital than tlie 500,000/. : they have certain d-^posits of money in their hands. TIjIs C«)mmittee does not inquire into the details of the profits of the Hudson's Hay Company; as fiir as the fur trade is concerned which ia connected with the government of the country, and th( licence, 1 tell you exactly the facts: but i do nor suppose you intend to inquire into all the details of the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company ; everythinf!: that the Conun'ttee require with a view to the },'0vern- ment or connexion of the Company witii the fur trade siiall be fully ami fairly before them. 5()oo. I believe that the nominal stock Wiis from time to time raised : — Not the nominal stock ; the real stock was raised. 5901. You used the word " nominal" youiself? — It does not necessarily follow that if a railway company has a stock of a million of money, it may not owe another million < . laoney, or that ; ri\ of its capital niay not be borrowed money ; the stoci 'ipon wu'cii the divideuv is made, and which is the Fiudsons Bay t'onipany s stock, is 500,000 /. 5902 When you startod it was not th li , .J you nominally increased it; we will saj. for the purpose ot taking some ligi.'rcf, that it was 300,000/ , and then you declaied it to be ,')00,000/. .' — I beg your pardon. 1 stated distinctly that at the time of the union of the companies it was 400,000 '., and that it was svi ■ sequeiP'y increased to 500,000 /., partly by money which had not been dividt- which was added to stock, and partly from money actually pnid. 5903. Y(m stn cd also, tiiat the competition between the North- Vv est Con.- pany and the Hudson's Bay Company (I use that phrase for the piirposp of brevity), led to a great use of spirits among the Indiaup ? — Yes. ,=iQ04. And that one of the great '.jenetits which you sui)posed to have been derived from the union of the two Companies was concentrating power in the hands of certain parties, which f ?b'rf' them to prevent the use of spirits? — Yes. ,'5905. In your opinion, is it p'jssible to regulate the morality of any body of people by law ?— That is a very wide (|uestion. I should certainly say not ; but still, when you have to deal with poor people like the Indians, wiiose passions may be e>:cited easily by the use of spirits, or by the use of any other stimulant, I think it is your duty, as far as you can, to prevent those consequences. ,')0O(l. You would give powers to people, which pow( rs would prevent colo- nisation, ni order to prevent the introduction of spirits?- I would give no power to anybody of any deseri()tion to prevent colonisation. .'")i)('7. Therefore, I conclude from your statement now. that if there be any powers in the hands of tiie Hud^^on's Bay Comfiany which really militate against colonisation, they )ught to be taken away ?— Certainly, provided you can effect rnionisatiim by r. tv other means. 5908. And if we are told that there are means of communi' atiou between 0.24 — Sess. 2. u u 2 Lake Tlie Hight Hon. E. EUtee,u.v. 33 June 1857. ■if :k Hi . ! ii: : i \\ ■■*:- ■ i*.-*-,- •Hki I:, S40 MINUTES OF EVIDFACE TAKEN DEFORE THE The IlJ({)it Hon. /.'. Ellice, M. V. Sj Juno 1837. r 'i "ii^ . i. F ilik Lake Suj crior and the Ued llivcr, in your opinion wc are misled? — No, 1 did not say thut ; there are means of communication, because people travel that wav, and trade has been conducted that way perpetually; but the (picstion is whether those means arc facile means, or whether the means of communication from Lake Superior are e(|ually easy with the meaui of coaimuuication from Minnesota and the adjoining American territory. ,')90(). I think you also seemed to lean to the opinion thiit, unless there was gome outlet for their produce, there would be no iiiciii-iuent .d colonisation"-— Tfint has been the case in America. 1 do not say that if a ;^reat coninuinity was established in any place, they niii^ht not exist without any outlet to their produce ; but that implies a very advanced state of society. I do not think that any part of America would have been cultivated or settled uidess they coiUd have had a market for theii surplus produce. 5910. What do you say to the territory of Utah .' — ^You talk of moral rules for society. Tiie territory ot Utah is held lonether upon extraordinary principles, and has been principally maintained by immense si-uis of nioiiey which misguided emigrants have carried to Utah. 5911. You believe, then, that Minnesota has been colonised and peopled, because the intervening territory between it and the more civilised parts of the United States has become peopled ? — I should think it is be.-ause the interveninc; ^ve become peopled, or because there are great facilities ot comuiutiicatiou between Minnesota and civilised (daces adjacent. /iyi J. Will you tell me what those means of communication are .'—I believe there is either a railroad actually in existenr?, or it is expected that there will be a railroad. ,')ii :.3. An expected railroad is no means of communication r — But an Anicrietin works in anticipation of all possible events. 5914. Why should not that same principle extend to the Red River ? — JJecause you come to Minnesota from the south. You must come to the Red Rive r from the north, and the means of communication are excessively ditficult. ,5qi,'5. Lake Superior is not to the nortli of the lied River ? — I think the Lake of the Woods is to, the north ot the Red River. You must come by acoMimuiii- cation which is in every respect difficult. ,^91 1) I .suppose you know that there is a complete comnmnication now between the Atlantic Ocean and Lnke Superior?— Yes. 5,917. 1 mean by stcnu' —Yes. .5018. So that it is very easy to sail from Ln Ion to Lake Superior: — I have no douht i>f ii. 5()i9. Therefore the only diHiculty which arises in our communication with the Red River would really uri«e between the shore., of Lake Superior and the Red River? — But there has never been any ditti(;ully in communication with Lake Superior; that has always been a facile conimunicatioii. If there have not been steam-boats, there have licen otiier vessels upon Lake Sujierior as long as 1 call recollect. * 5()20. But surely, the communication between the Atlantic and Lake Superior •was very difficult '20 years ac;o- -Not very difficult. We had the same ditli- culties in the rapids of the Sault St. Mary; the communication between Lake Erie and Lake Superior was difficult; all that has been impi jved with time, and it has been improved as tiio country has been civilised and settled. 1 do not know when you mav expect (at least I do not dream of it) the country between Lake Superior and Red Ulver to be settled, and you cannot have good communi- cations through any country in whicli there ate not settlements. 5921. Then your belief is, that the hope of settling the Red River is illusory, and that in our time we shall not see it fulfilled ?— I think it perfectly illusory, i;nles8 it should be settled by settlements pushing up from tlic southward, and ^ )mg across the plain from the States. .■-,922. 1 think you said that llie Hudson's Bay Company was the last remaining proprietary company '. — Yes. ,592 ]. And you mentioned that there had been a great number of proprietary colonies in the United States :•* — Yes. 5924. Did not every one of those colonies, as proprietary colonies, break down ?— No, I think not. 1 forget the exact history. I think the proprietor of Massachusetts established a free government, and made terms respecting it. I think Lord Baltimore did the same in Carolina, and Mr. Penn in Peunsylvaiiia. The SKLEtT COMMITTED ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ;]4i are ' —I believe tion now between peiior : — 1 have The propriet'ir, accordinir to English notiong and faHhions, thought that the government was beyond his control, and ho interested the people in it, and I believe behaved with great liberality and justice. 5()J,V In every one of thoije proprietary colonies was not there an application made to the C;own for a chararr — Of course there was ; they could not hold om without a charter, 926. I mean afterwards? — I have not the least doubt that the proprietors I aiue to some arrangement on the subject. 5927. Then the government of the colony was the result in fact of the Crown's interference r — Either the Crown's interference or the proprietor's interference ; 1 think you deprive some of those i)roprictor8 of due credit for their desire to extend the institutions in the country which belonged to them. ."iO^B. I know that Lord Baltimore was a very benevolent and humane man, but surely the Crown «ms re(iuired to interfere and f>ive powiT to the colonists to govern themselves .' — It is a lonp time since I have looked to the history of those proprietary governments, but I think you will find that tl e proprietors had at least as much merit as tiie Crown in whatever ultimate arrangement took place for the government of these countries. .'',()2i). You said also tiiat the Hoverimient of the Hudson's Bay Company had not been found fault with r— I said that it had been less found fault with tiian in any other colony under the Crown since the union with the Canadian companies in 1821 or 1822. agSO. Are you at all aware that that ])etition is now before the Canadian House of Assembly (liandina a Papa- to the. Ri : that in all questions which have been referred to the Colonial Ofiice, where the Colonial Office have, either throuuh independent officers or other means, instituted inquiries with respect to the grovmds of iliose complaints which have been made, the Hudson's Bay Company have been informed by the Colonial Office that the complaints generally have been without foundation. 5931. Cannot we assume it to be the fact that a fur company has interests in direct opposition to the colonisation of the country ?— 1 do not think that we can assume anything as a fact. My opinion is that a fur company have verv little to do with colonisation, and that the Hudson's liay Company would have done much better if they had never had anything to do with colonisation ; and, in fact, the Hudson's Bay Company never voluntarily undertook colonisation on tlie Red River, where they believed it to be im]iractieable. They sold to Lord Selkirk that country, or they granted it to liim, and he first estai)lislied the colony ; and -''.en they re-posses.sed themselves of it, they dhi it because they thoui^ht it at the time inexpedient that there should be noditt'erent interests from tlieir own at the Red River, and beiaii:;e Loul Selkirk, in fact, wishe itJuT an ani|iiiibiotiH nod indcfx luhnt personage; lu' was II very able man, ant. I believe u very jjood man ; but he had a Caney tlml he would like to Imvo irter<»ts in both , both in Anienea and in the English territory ; ani.' 1 u u « .' v f do not know now what Iiuh becoin<' of Inm, exetj)t ihat lie has letl ''le Hudson'^ llay (-'onipany's service. I wiHJi to nay nothiui,' a^'ainst Dr. .Mcl.oiii;hliM. who I believe to "have been a very intellii,'ent and very enterprisini; man; and (c-rtainly wiiile he remained with the IliuUon'it IJay Comnany he ^wxh an excellent si-rvant ol t)ir Hudson's May Company. Op^O. Nlr. lioil>uck.\ While speaking ol the condnct ot tile Company, you stated, amongst other things, that the moment any servant became too intnniite in hi8 relations with the Indians, he v\as removed : what did yoti mean by that ; did you mean to allude to tlie faet tliat when iiny servant of the Company ac(|uired teelings ot commiseration or sympathy wiih the Indians, \u- wm removed '—On the contrary, the servant would be most prized »»ho, by proper means and iiumane attention, and attempts to civilise the Indians, establislied an influence with the Indians. ,^037. In your opinion, is it tor the benefit of the couiitrv, taken as a country, that there should be any monopoly of trade in the hanils of the Hudson's Bay Companv, with rt'<;;ird to tiicir territory .' -If yon wer< to allow competition to take place again in tiie trade of the north-west ti.rntories, the competition might last eight or ten years, and the trade would b" utterly destroyed ; and the Indians would be reduced to a state of want and starvation of which one can give no description. .')!).3^- You stated also, tliat in America, south of the British line, the trade in fur liad almost entirely disappeared H- Ves. :)1)3'J Is "Of that in consequence of the incrc.i.se of civilisation in those parts? — Cerlaiidy; the march of civilisation naturally puts an end to it. .',1)40. Therefore, if the same phenomenon were to occur north of that line, you minht assume that it was occasioned by the saim. cause, namely, the increase of civilisation ■ — Certainly. .•■)()4i. Reverse that jmiposition. If colonisation lias not reached across the boimdary, is it not in consei|Ucncc of the maintenance of the fur trade .' - I think it will be very diltieult to make out that proposition. 1 do not admit it. ^)\)A-- IJut the faet of the maintenance of the fur trade would prevent anything like colonisation ? — ('ertainly not ; the existence of the fur trade prevents colonisa- tion in no res|»cct ; there is no reason why colonisation and tlie fur trade may not go on togetl>er. .594;}. Is tliat in accordance with what you have just stated, that wherever civilisation comes the fur trade disappears .' — To a certain extent, in the iniini?- diate neighbourhood when theJand is cultivated, the animal will disappear, and of course the trade will disappiar with the animal. ,■,944. Does not the animal retreat to a very great dibtance from all colonisa- tion : docs not the animal get frightened : — T ertainly, and the trader retreats with him. ,';()4,",. iMr. J. II. (iiinuij.] Is it not considered that tiie cold chniate is favouiable to the (juality of the fur .' — Certainly ; the best fur comes from the coldest climate. .594 1). Therefoic the best climate for the production of fur is the worst eUniate for the production of agricultural produce ! — Certainly. ,504". Mr. Roebuck.} Mui the American territory was a fine hunting country onee, was not it / — All tliat prairie country which is now cstaldishcd ; as I .said before, I remember SOO.OOd or a million of deer skins coming into Canada from il. ,',04S. 'Iherefore the .stiilenient that the worse the country the bet'er the huniiiiif ground is not rjuite accurate .' — Ves ; these statements are both correct; there were difierent kinds of animals ; the deer and the animal inhabiting the plains was not of the same value for its skin or its peltry as the beaver, or tht otter, or the mart( n, which is found in the north ; tlu! greater quantity of the one in the' plain may have made up for the smaller quantity of the more valuable fur in the northern region. 5949- in SKLE( T COMMITTEE ON THK HUDSON S IJAY COMPANY. Mi pogfd to be the line, tlie trade in lely, the iiicnase 10 worst (liuiatc ;,i)4y. Ill tlif Aini'riciin territory, when it woi ii ('ir-litarinf; ti-rrilory, wan not there a hii^c avcr ? — Yes; thirc was n lar,:?" <|iiaiitity ol' beaver very t'lir Hotith in the AlisHiHsippi at one time, but it is all deHtroyeii ; but that beaver wan not so valuubh' aH ttie bi.iwr in the north, or the ottrr either. '',p,')i>. .Mr Christ ji.\ I will just ask you a qUPHtion with rel'eience to one point put by Mr. Hoehuck, as respects the ronimunieaiion w>:i ''^c Red Hivcr ; vmi aie aware of" what is lernieil the direct route, pi rhap. .' Tint is the old route by which the Canadian fur tnideis went by Lake Win ,>^s, . ' d the Ijikc of tlie Woods. ,50,^1. Are you aware that that Ims fallen veiy much into disuse by its (jetting out of repair? — Yes; there never was a regular road there; in the old time tlie (fieater part of the distaiirc was never travelled by a eart or by a horse ; it was travi lied in canoe.s. Thosf canoe* came to what were called portages, over which the men carried the loads of the canoes on their backs; there never was any other road. •,(),5'i. I do not want to dwell on this subject, hut Colonel Croftoii gave in evidence that he uoiild have no dilliculty in marchin.: troops by tiiat roule? — I have no iloubt of it ; if Canadian voyagers can take heavy loads of goods in canoes, troops can march easily. ,595.5. Are you aware that Canada has lately voted the sum of .'3,()00/. for improvinfi and opening that route ?— I am very glad to hear it. .^,9,-(4. I have a paper which has come to my knowledge for the first time since F have been in this Committee, which prints the statement that (Janada has voted .0,000/. for that jjurposc ? — I am (piite sure that if Canada intends to open that route, Canada will have every assistance and cordial co-operation on the part of the Hudaon's Bay Company in that unricrtakinj;. .')<)")")• '■'*'■ the purpose of more clearly expressing the questions which I intended to put to you tiiis morning, I have written tiieiii, and I will preface them merely by saying tliat if there arc any which are of too personal a nature, I hope you will not attribute them to any improper motive on my part ■ — There can be none of too personal a nature. ,|)i).-,t). I would also say that I think it essential to institute rather a close ex- amination into the capital of the Company: This Committee has nothing to do with the capital of the Company. .'iO.'iJ. in reference to the (juestion which 1 have previously put, I hell ;ve you never were in the country of the Red lliver? — No; but I have been in constant conimunicaiion with every man who has been across that route from Canada. .•)9;")S. The whole ot the inlbrmation which you have given to the Committee tliis morning is based upon the information wl you have derived from • o« 11 personal know- ii ver seen is fit for .it it is given from various sources.- — 1 beg your pardon, it is given .u kdsie ; with res| ect to whether a country which ' ii^ ■Ml '.11 IS ♦ravelleil in any ive not trnvelled you tliink tliat the colonisation, that is not given from personal kiii statitilical information. ■,95ij. And not from any personal krowlp'' .c .im- part of this country ? — 1 have travelled ii nc |' ; beyond Lake Superior. .■,y()o. Then you Ciinnot inlorai the Commiiti.e r),0()0/. which has been votetl by Canada would be '4 si.rticient sum for improv ing and opening that route? — lean, as far as opin'on goes. It would go a very little way. Labour is very dear in that counry, and the track being pardy rock and partly sw amp, ii' a road is to bo formed it will be a very diflicult undertaking, ami 1 should think that 5,000/. would not go far in establishing a communication, that is to say, which a hor.-e could travel. ,')96i. I believe you were at one time one of the principal partners of the North- West Company before its junction with the Hudson's Bay Company? — Yes. .Vj'i'i. I therefore presume that yon are well acquainted with the constitution and history of both comi)anics r" — Yes. 5963. Are you aware that in 1749 the affairs of the Hudson's Hay Company 'ere brought before a Committee of the House of Comnions, and much inter- esting evidence obtained of the nature and extent of their tiade and business operations at that period ? — I am not aware of it; but it is a matter of histo.y, I suppose. 5964. The report I have here, which gives a very detailed accovpt ot t.ie 0.24 — Sess. 2. u u 4 CO" iticm The KiKht Hon. e. EUie; u. r. 13 Janr 1857. '' t el! 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN nEFORE THE The Hisht Hon. E. Ellice, M. r. srs Juno 1857. conslitutioii of the Coin])any at that time : referring to that report I wish to draw your attention to the statement \vl 'r!i appears of tiic amount Jind succes- sive ausmentntions of the Company's slock up to thiit time? — The evidence whicli I have friven before tliis Committee has reference only to the time when I was connected with the Company, which was in 1821, when the Canadian companies and the Hudson's Bay Company united, and formed a very different Company from anything that h;ul ever heen known l)efore under the title of the Hudson's Bay Company. Nothing- that previously took place in tlie affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company can at all have reference to what has been the conduct, or the management of the Company, for tiie last 40 years. !y()6'i. I tiiink you are acquainted with the constitution of both Companies? — Perfectly. ,io6t). As it is a matter given to the House of Commons, and therefore is a public matter, I wish to draw your attention to the statements of the su.^ces- sive augmentations whicii are given in the report to which I have referred ? — But that is, how many years ago ? 591)7. One hundred years ago? — Surely what took place 100 years ago has very little to do with what we are discussing now, namely, the state of the Hudson's Hay Company. 5968. Excuse me, it is the only information whicli has ever been given to Parliament, or whicli has ever been made public, by which the public have been able to obtain any information of the proceedings of this Company? — It is all printed for the benefit of the public ; the public can refer to it ; I have never even read it. 5969. It appears that in 1G76, by the books of the Company, their stock was 10,500/.; in 1000 the same was trebled, not by subscription, but by the creation of nominal stock, and declared to be 31,500/.; in 1720 the stock was again trebled in the same way, and declared to be 94,500/.; a subscription was then taken for 3,150/. by each person subscribing 100/., and beincr accredited with 300 /. It appears to have become trebled also as before, anc! the amount carried out is 9,450/., making the total capital, as declared on the 23d of December 1720, 103,950/., only 13,150 /. of which was actually paid u[). The question whicli I wish to ask is, whether you can give to the Coni- mi'.tee any information regarding the profits of the Company at that period, which enabled them to perform these remark.able augmentations? — I can give to the Committee no information upon that subject ; but having ascertained the stock of the Company was about 103,000/., I myself offered Sir Richard Neavc, who was then governor of the Company, 103,000/. Navy 5/. per cents, for the whole Hudson's Buy Company about the year 1804. I did it in order to pur- chase the Hudson's Bay Company for the Canadian companies at the time, and that transaction only was not carried into effect because part of the stock was foumi to be the property of infants, and other persons incapable of givini; a title, or making a transfer, and which would have made it necessary for Ju' parties tit go to the Court of •Chancery for powers, and I did not at that time want that tins transaction should be published. .'5U70. In the Parliamentary Papers which were printed in 1842, I find a letter from the governor of the Hudson's Hay Company to the Committee ot the Privy Council for Trade, in which Sir John Pelly writes to Lord (Jlenelg o)i the occasion of his applying for the renewal of the Company's licence in I8,3s, in which he states that from (JO to "0 per cent, was annually divided amon;; the shareholders- — If Sir .lohn Pelly stated that, he stated that which was not the fact ; there must be some mistake. .'■,971. Mr. Edward Kllice.] That refers to 1690? — It is more than 100 yens ago. There is one thing wliich occurs to me with respect to this question i,l profit altogether. If the ]irofit of the Hudson's Bay Company was very much diminished, the Company itself would cease to exist, because the shareholdei really does not get more profit for the investment of his ca|)ital than anv common tradei who invests his capital in business in England ; and tlii' people who conduct the trade in the interior, where they live [)robably for six months in tiie year without tasting bread or an esculent vegetable of any kind. are but poorly paid with the share of the profit wliich thev derive for their labour ; and if the profit was to be so diminished as not to give to these men 11 sufficient temptation in tiie way of renmneration to remain in the country, the country would become completely disorganised. It is a question entirely oi profit whether you can maintain either the Hudson's Bay Company or tiieir servants. HE SELECT COMMin'EE OX THE HUDSON'S HAY COMPANY. 34.'] port I wisli to int und succes- — The evidence I the time when thu Canadian a very ditferRnt the title of the in the atfairs of t has been the irs. 3th Companies ? J therefore is a i of the su.^ces- ive referred ? — 10 years ago has ;he stale of the er been given to ;he pubHc have 1 Company? — It fer to it ; I have , their stock was ion, but by the 20 the slock was ; a subscription )0/., and beinsT as before, anc! declared on the k-as actually paid kve to the Coni- °- at that period, IS? — I can give ascertained the lichard Neavc, er cents, for the n order to par- ies at the time, lart of the stock )abie of givin,!; lecessary for -he not at that time 1842, I find a Committee ot .ord (Jlenelj? on licence in 1H.'5S, divided amoni; which was not I than 100 ye hs this question >.,{ was very mucli tiie sharciiolder apital than any ■land; and tla- probably (or six ble of any kiud. derive for their : to these men a the country, thu jtioa entirely ot impany or their servants. servants. If there is not an adequate prcflt to maintain them, the thing must of necessity decline and he destroyed. 507.2. Mr. CiiriKti/.'] My (]uestion went more to the capital than to the actual profit which had lieen divided ■ — If you ask anything about capital, from the time that 1 know anything about the Hudson's Hay Company, I am quite willing to answer it /5p73. I was v.ishing to bring down the tradition, as I may say, based upon the only facts "hich are at my disjjosal, of the history of this Comparjy from 100 years ago until the present time ; in the same document I observed that on the junction of the North-West and Hudson's May Companies, the capital stock of the united associations was declared at 400,000/.: — It was 400,000/. actually paid either in tiie inventories of stock at the different posts, or in money. .';()74. It appears to be made up in this way ; a call was made upon the share- holders of the Hudson's Bay Company, augmenting their stock to 200,000/.? — Yes. ;',p7.5. A\ hile the North-\V est Company contributed a similar sum? — Yes. ,'•,970. Are you aware how that amount was made up? — It was made up, as the (juestion itself states, by the Hudson's Bay Com()any contributing money to make up the delitiency in their inventories at the time ; the capital was com- posed, for instance, of the inventories of goods at the posts in the interior : there Avas a great trading capital, some of it Look two years to bring the accounts of the stock at the diHerent places; there was the remnant of tlie furs on hand; there were the goods on hand at the various posts, but the whole was either money or money's worth. .'ig77. Was the additional 100,000/. contributed by the Hudson's Bay Com- pany actually paid up ? — It was actually paid up, because we began the concern with 40((,(>00/., and therefore it must have been found somehow or other; I believe that it was paid in hard money. ,S97!:i. Then it was not nominal cajtital ? — No. 5979. It iiad not increased nominally, as previously ? — No ; it was actual money or goods ; one of the two. 5980. 1 find by a statement recently laid officially before this Committee, that the present stock of the Company is 500,000/.? — Yes. 5l)8i. How was the additional 100,000 /. added to the 400,000 /. ?— It was in a great measure by undivided profits; that is to say, by money which wouM have been divided as a bonus ; it was supposed that the Company wanted more capital, and mstead of dividing the whole protit to the shareholders, the Company only divided 10 per cent., and put tiie remaining money in stock. ',[)^-2, They lave increased their capital of 400,000 /. by adding profits of 100,000/. to it : — By adding money, whether it Mas the profits which they had realised or not ; the capital of the stock is .')00,000 /. money capital. 5!)'^.i- ^^'hiit is the value of the stock, is it 100/. stock?— It is 100/. stock ; iis value is about 200 /. ; it pays annually a 10 per cent, dividend, and occasion- ally there has hei'ii a five per cent, hoiius. 5984. Can you state to tiic Committee how much of the present stock of the Company lias been paid up : — The whole has been paid up. ^)[i^'). In iiie same statement which has been laid before this Committee, 1 observe an item nf 84,111 /. paid to Lord Selkirk for the Red River Settle- ment.' — That is the money actually paid to Lord Selkirk, wi h interest added to it. The Honourable tienileman is aware that when iinrchants make a imrehase they ojien an account, and they debit to that account the money which the estate cost them, and they add the interest, and deduct any revenue or receipt which they have had from it since ; and the 84,00t) /. is the balance ofsiicii an account. ,l()S(i. In IH'M, as you have already stated to the Committee r — Yes. ,0987. Chainiian.] Deducting your profits ? — Yes. I am afraid there are no lirofits , it is the accumulation of interest. -)iiSS. Mr. CInisiij.] The 84,000 /. is a monied sum due to Lord Selkirk ?— It is that money, and interest outstanding upon their h^oks. 'jpSp. May I ask you out of what funds could the nionev be paid.- — Out of our capital or profits. Wc have a great deal of money which i;- not in our capital stock ; we are do|)ositaries for large sums of money belonging to the Jioople in the interior. Any company of this description has larger transactions tliiui the immediate amount of its capital. 5990. Would that be in the light of borrowed money ?— It is deposit money. 0.24 — Sess. 2. X X Bankers, Tlie Riglit Hon. E. Ellice, M. p. 33 June 1857. m. i m '' ■'■'U\ -;i. 'li 346 MINUTES OP FA'IDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE f ' ;i 'I rk 1:1 Tlie Right Hon. Bankers, and other people tiadiiip as (loiniwnies, receive money upon deposts B. BUiet, m.r. and probably allow a lower interest than they get for it. We have large trans- actions beyond tlie fur trade. «S ""• •''" ,^!)0i. Mr. J. H. (iiirnn/.] The Hudson's Bay Company are in fact the bankers for tlio wholo of that district, iire llicy not .' — Tluy are bankers for all; it is a facility for their servants. For instiince, when the profits are divided, they credit a man's account with the protit, and they allow him interest upon the balance. ,",i)9'j. Mr. C'hiisti/.] I have before me a pamphlet which has been published, known by the name McGillivray's Book, being " A Narrative of Occurrencts in the Indian Countries of Norih America, since the connection of the Right Monotirable the Earl of Selkirk wiMi tlie Hudson's Bay Company.' I find at page (i5 of that pamphlet, the f. Uowing passage: — "'From Lord b-'dkirks acquisition of the majority of votes, he Hudson's Bay Company may be said to centre in one individual. Flie Coverior and Court are merely his agents, and the remaining proprietors, bound by the sense of the majority, can make no opposition. Without intending the slightest imputation to the directors, they can have oidy the option of resignation in the event of difference of opinion with his Lordship, and the re-election of their successors must depend solely upon his decision. In this manner his Lordship has acquired the immense tract of land before stated, and no attempt till the present one has ever been before made to lake advantage of the supposed territorial rights under tliis charter. We humbly conceive, therefore, that before a title can be secured by length of posse>sion, it ought to be made the subject of inquiry by His Majesty's Government, and directions given to the Attorney-general to eject his Lordship from the occupancy of the land in question, at the suit of the Crown, to whom it can alone belong." That was on the 29th of May 1815? — I am not sure that I aui not the author of that libel upon the Hudson's Bay Company ; it is either Mr. McGillivray or myself. I have written many thmgs as violent as that against the Hudson's Bay Company, and I suppose that parties who are engaged in a violent contest one with the other, write a great many things which it would he Mry difficult to reduce to proof. .",gi)3. I think you are (juite right ; it is signed by " M'Tavish, F'raser &. ('oni- pany,"' and " Injilis, Elliec & Company "? — I told the Commiti.ee before that 1 had taken every opinion for and against the Company. ')^}^^. Therefore I helieve that when you were connected with the North- West Com|)any )ou denied, in common aitii other meml)ers of that association, the legality of the sub-monopoly granted by the Hudson's Bay Company to Lord Selkirk: — We disputed the rights of Lord Selkirk connected with his ^rant ol land. I do not know that there was any sub monopoly given to hiui. Lord Selkirk warned us otf as poachers. There were different proclamations made, that we had no right to kill an animal upon his land. Rights connected with tiie possession of lanc^ in Circat Britain were assumed to be those which Lord Selkirk could enforce at the time, and we were at actual war with one another, and of course we denied every right which they had. But it is not because we have denied those abuses of tli< rights of property that we may not now maintain the rights of possession which we have aecjuired 59(),"). You have .^inec asserted them, and found it to your interest, I sup- pose, to maintain them? - It is not a question of interest at all ; it is a question of law. We in;iy iiave been wrong in u wrote, I )ur of reading that utln'r they remain !V were at'the time l)"ii's Hay Comiiany now tiic state of in liieir own ter- an lenitorics, and uith tiie United the Hudson's Bay to ask me whctiier I eiiterlaiii I entertain all tlie opinions whicii I asserted as c.v parte opinions upon one side of the cast' 40 years Jigo, I sliould be very sorry to bind myself to them. 5,iM)p. I will ])ut a «(uestion based upon a defluction ; do you not consider that supposing the Comi)any in the first instance made an illegal grant to Lord Selkirk, any claim to compensation would fail if that illegality can bo shown ? — The tmited Company, which consisted of the very persons who objected to the grant to Lord Selkirk, as well as the members of the old Company, must have entertained a better view ot the title upon re-examination, since they re-purchased the tcrritoiy. (iooo. But that might involve oilier considerations. I think you stated other considerations, namely, that there were separate interests ; that it interfered with the Company's trade ? — Yes, but we siiould not have received a legal re- conveyance of the land from Lord .Selkirk, which we have done, if we had not sufiposed that there had been some title to ir. t)i)C>i. Have you extinguished the Indian title to the land of this settlement .' — We are getting into a (pie^tion about Indian title, which is very difficult altogether. The hhiglish Ciovernment never extinguished the Indian title in Canada when they took possession : the Americans, while they have been extending their |)osse.ssions, have extinsiuished the Indian title, but in Canada there has never been any treaty with the Indians to extinguish the title ; the Crown, retaining certain reserves for the Indians, has always insisted upon the nuht to occupy the lands, and to grant the lands. ()()i>.'. Do you know the amount of the coinj)ensation made Ly Lord Selkirk to the Indians ? — No. I never heard that he made any, and I i.m inclined to think that he would have made none, except that he wanted at that time to keep the Indians at peace ; he may have given them some wampum. .\ b'ttle of rum used to be a very good consideration to the Indiiins for any given tract of land in those days. ()()o.3. -Are you aware whether the rights of Lord .Selkirk were under any treaty .' — I am not aware of that. tio04. There has been some objection to state the amount of stock standing in the names of the various shareholders ; I a of the .sharehokh rs, and the amount of stock whicli they held: I thought that it was not an unusual return to ask for "r —Very unusual. t)00,"). i'he return, I believe, has been given to the Colonial Oltice in the form of naine> embodied in a pamphlet, but there lias been no return of the stock standing individually in those names "r — I should think the House of Coiiunons "ould be very iinwillinetiriijn wh;ch miaht arise- — -I have no doubt tiiat whether the licence is graite I ti> tlieni (>!• not, the IhuKon's Bay Company can jirevent any other trale with the Indians; and not only that, but if you uere to destro,- the Hudsoirs Bay Company, tlieir servaiUs now in the iiiterior, in possession of the ti'udu, and having intiiiiiite relations with the interior, would carry on that tr.ida against any competition from Canada, or against; any connietition from elsewhere; and even if it was necessary, and if the attempt was made to deprive them of what are, in short, their sole means of existence, they would find means, either by coiiiinunication with Ameriea or somewhere else, to carry on ili.' trade, and exclude every other party. (ioii). Dill not the North-Wcst ("omoany practically enjoy a monopoly of the fur trade, although no exclnsivi! riglits were granted flu'm "r — No ; the original Norih-West Company soon s;ilit into two, in consequence of a ditfercnce abnut interests , then the two Companies were in active coiupetitioa against each other, as well as in competition against the Hudson's Bay (Jompany, and it was very SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ,549 It is unusual; ;tjr to the terri- verv uncertain for a long time which of them lost most raoiiey ; none of them f^ained money. Gojo. Can you inform us of the money value sold in London of the furs im- ported from the United Stales? — I cannot; and I do not think it has much reference to the incjuiry hofore this Committee : I know nothin;; ahout it. (xi^i. I think you informed tlie Committee that the trade in furs i.i the United Slates territory, and the trade in the southern portion of the Hudson's Bay territory, was very nearly extinguished 'i — It is very nearly extinguished in the States by the advance of civilisation and settlement, and there is very little valuable trade left in the southern part of the Hudson's Hay Company's terri- tories ; the animals are extinguished by competition between the traders upon both sides of the line. (io2'J. By competition, and by the advance of civilisation, I understand that the fur trade hi's very much decreased ; yet at the same time, T suppose you are aware that tlicre is a very large importation sold annually in London from these districts of vhicii we have been s|)eaking ■ — There is a certain importation, but nothing in ))roportion to tiie importation which I recollect of furs from America; on the cor;'rary, there is ;in ex|)ortation to America from this country of furs, which are imp-ortcd here by the Hudson's Bay Company. 6023. Siionld you suppose that the importation from the United States amounted to 100,000/. a year? — 1 have known it amount to nearly a million : that consists of skii\, of various (lescri|)ti()ns wliich we should scarcely call furs. There is a trade in furs which comes oven now from Souih America : the skins of a few animals are collected in various places all over that vast continent, and I dare say they nuiy come here, to the extent of 100,000 /. ; no doubt ot it. fio24. 1 assume that the valueless nature of the trade in the southern distiict of the Hudson's Bay Company's territories, and we may say in the northern districts of (he United States' terr\ories, arises from competition, and from a higher price being given originally?-- Not at all; it arises from the nature of the country, which is not a fur-bearing country; that part of the country is plain; there are buffaloes, and some wolves found there, always attendant upon lierds of bufi'aloes, hut there are no very valuable animals in that district ; the trade in that country is chiefly oi value to the Hudson's liay Company for the supply of meat, which they obtain by killing bufi'aloes, and by trading with the Indians in buH'alois. tioj.'',. The Hudson's Bav Companv have posts established in Canada, I think? —Yes. (io'jti. Is it not the case that the furs collected at those posts do not afford much jirotii. to the Coni|iany ; I think you stated that some of them were a loss r — 1 did not say that with reference to the posts in Canada. I said it of the ]iosts established upon the lronti( r between the United States and tlie Bed lliver. 1 believe the Hudson's Bay Company v.ould not carry on the posts in Canada unless they derived some profit from them : people are not \\\^l to carry on business wiilioui the expeiiation ot jirotit ; the furs collected in the posts in Canada, which are hi liy the (io\ eminent of Canada to the Hudson's Bay I'om- pany.are very valuable ; they come liom a country very far north. (ioi'7. ^Vould yon see any ol)iection to giving the tariff price which was ])aid to the Indians, as was given in 17-li) to the House oi Commons ,* — 1 see this objection, that you are entering unnecessarily into the details of the trade ; those details when jiuhlishcd may encourage other people to enler into compe- tition with the('oni|)any. 1 do not see that there is any advantage to be gained to the public by that. (io:jS. W ill you inlorm tin ("onnnittce whether the Hudson's Bay Company have taken any step to |irevent any portion of their territories, which are capable of settlement, from billing into the hands of any fi 'reign state i* — No foreign ftate is likely to wish to have possession of them ; but I have no doubt they would take cmiv precaution they could against the invasion of their territories, and they would take that most reastjiiable of all measures in such a ci r.tmgency, they would make a rei.reseiiiation to the (iovernment of this country, that au Knglish territoi y liad been taken jiossession of by persons having no claim 10 it. tioj^. Do you ihii k that there is any apprehension at the piesent moment of such a se ttleiiient being made within what you comider to be the southern ter- ritories of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No;ie in the lifetime of the youngest man now alive. 0.^4 — Sess. 2. >i X 3 6030. Were The HiKht Hon. £. Ellke, M.I'. csJune 1857. m ,',>:iriJ w m Ma H.s 3.50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN nEK(iRE THE The Right Hnn. E. EUiee, m.p. 93 June 1857. ^:f (io.^o. Wire any steps taken witli regard to the Oregon district at tlu- time wlicn Dr. McF.aughlin took over into Oregon peopk- who wer.' said to I>c. and who were, I suppose, nt that time, under the government (jr conirol ot the Hudson's Bay Company, and wlio ,. the (Jovernment to send out some troops, which the Ciovernnniit pay, and the Hudson's Bay Company feed. t)03.'). Would the colony recpiire more ()r tiewer troops than under the man- agement of the Hudson's Bay ('omi)any ; it would necessarily require more; the instant that you establish the Queen's government anywhere, you have the American government established opposite. I do not think i' would be a veiy advisable experiment. tiojt). You would have to place the settlers ui)on land .•* — Yes, and to maintain them until they could maintain ihemselves. (i 137. Is there abundanre of land sufficient to entice settler- r — I believe not. From all I have heard upon the subject, the alluvial soil collected upon the banks of the rivers is very good and vcrv tit for cultivation ; the moment you get upon the prairie it be(;omes marshy and very bad. 6038. Would voa not re([iiire a road .'—Certainly vou would require eomnui- nicatioii with some other dependency of the Crown. IJ031). You were asked what colonised Minnesota: was not it the Mississippi River- — It was the Mississippi River ana the gradual extension of settlements nj) the -Mississippi Hiver. G040. T!ie Mis,sissippi River does not exlciul near the Ilud.son's Bay '1 erri- torv ? — If it did, the Hudson's Bav Territories would verv soon become American. 604I. When we have taken all these steps, can you mention any inducement which would make settlers go there .' — I know of noiu- while settlers can establish themselves on lands in America under very much nn)re favourable circumstances ; in this very country of Miimesota in Upper Canada, and in parts of Lower Canada, the country within the ken of good institutions is not one-tenth part peopled yet, and it" is very dilHeult to settle wild couittries, even in the best situations, without the advance of great capital. tio^u. And HE rict at thf time said to l)c. and conirol of tiie 1) the Anieiiean ly tlie Ihidsons in was rather a • went over witli hiiik it lor tlieir i)eo[)li' over, and ic probably has of tiiis country, 1, they siinposed lelv ; then Dr. ;lio vioveriior of man ; — I believe lion of him from liver Settlement, 1 to be taken in 1 iiinst pass some iiink it would be now and then is , a (Jovernor and at. It would be source you could ; been a military ly Company, and were tbre;itened in to look alter ation to Hudson's Bay, the only other means of ixport ; and even if they f^ot it to the shores of the bay, the season is so uncertain, that verv often the ship would leave the produce behind. 6044. \\ oultl not the trade of such a colony necessarily pass through the United States, whatever it was.' — I think it must. I think a great number of attcm])ts have been nii'de in America to determine routes for political reasons, but they all end in the natural communication being followed. 6()4,')-6. Sii|)posing we have got over all tliese difficulties, and formed the colony, what would be the fate of that colony in ease of a war breaking out between this country and the United States ?— You could send no succour there ; you could not maintain your troops. Vou have rio means of maintaining a garrison, unless precautions are taken betbrehand to iuipctrt provisions through Hudson's Bay, or to obtain provisions in the interior. If there was any war between England and the United States, the country would be entirely at the mercy ol the different tribe.s of Indians upon the irontier, paid or bribed by either party to commit excesses one against the other. 6(147. M""- J- ''• (juriic/i.] \\"\\\\ reference to the stock, is any considerable portion of the Hudson's Bay ( ompany's stock held in Canada : — I think not. I think the Hudson's Bay Company's stock held in Canada, which was a very large proportion of the whole stock, was sold, in cousi'quence of the failure of the parties in Canada who had been mined by the trade. 1 saw a statement the other day that three-fourtiis, or certainly two-tiiirds, of the stock is now held by diflerent people Ircui those to whom it was apportioned in the division in 1821 or \H-12. (1048. Mr. iirouan.] You have stated that some troops are going out to the Red River Settlement at present ?-- Yes. 0049. For the purpose of the preservation of peace, I presume ■ — Yes ; to prevent any alarm about the half breeds; there have been disturbances in the adjoining territory betwe>n the Americans and the Indians ; there have been such disturbances in Minnesota; the country has been threatened with war there lately, and we were alarmed thai it mi'.jht extend; the Indians, wlien once engaged, get to war with one anothi i , and they are not over scrupulous as to whom they attack, and it was supposed to be better to be in a state of prepara- tion j'gainst any contingency. (i()/-,<). ( /idirwdii.] 1 believe troops 'lavc been stationed there before.' — Troops have bein siationed there for the very same reason before; the country became (|uiet, and tlie troops weir withdrawn : apprehensions were entertained in con- sequence of this Indian warfare goiny on in the neighbourin:^ state, and an ap- ])licatior. was made a.;ain for troops. oo/;!. Mr. OV,? •,'««. I When the Queens troops were stationed there in the first instance, were not they sent U;ere t'oi the purpose of in some degree allay- ing the disturbance or excitement whicli jirevailed in the colony in consequence of the half breeds entering into the trade in furs? — No, 1 think not especially for that ; wlicnex er any excitement takes place immediately tqion that frontier it extends beyond it ; some gentlemen are goin ; in from C^anaca now, 1 believe, to endeavour to re-opi-n the trade in furs ; the (irst means which they will have recourse to in eider to pioiiiote that trade wi I be to get some of those half breeds with them ; thf half breeds will again (Milist some of the Indians; that may lead to disturbances upon the Irontier wiich it is very desirable to have security against. til)/-, 2. Was it to guard against any apprehension of that sort that this provision of the troops was made? — Nut on tiiat account onh, but from the dangrr which there always is on that Irontier Irom any state of disturbance, from whatever reason, among the Indians. tio,',;. But apprehension in respect of Canadian traders was one of the reasons which induced the application tor troops . — It was to guard against that contingency wliich I state, d();,.4. 1 believe you have heard that there is a good deal of agitation among the Caniulian people now , with regard to their right to enter into the fur trade .' 0.J4— Sess. 2. X X 4 — i do The Risht Hon. E. ElUct,M.t. 33 June 1857, m^ s m iSlt 35-! MINUTES OF EVIUENCK TAKEN BKFOnK THE Tlic night Hun. E. Eilicc, M. p. •ii June 1857, — I do not believe there is any very ureat agitation on the part oltlie ('anadiaii people; the C'anacliai. "bhc naturally take an inlcnst in tlli^^ intiiiiry, and there are ol'conrse paitius seekinu; to i)rofit l)y the abolition ol the C()ini)any, if that should be the is-ue of it. There is, also, some idea tiiat the lej;al claims ot the Hudson's Hay Company have not been fully established bet'oro any of our courts liere ; and there is a general notion that a full in(iniry should take pliice before any renewal of the licence. 60-,-,. Is it within your knowled^je that there have been n>eetinj>s of the Canadiaiis, with regard to gettinp; up conipanies among themselves, or iiidividuul traders, to prosecute the fur trade in the country .' — I have not the least di)ul)t that at the bottom of the agitation in Canada is the expectation of certain people in Canada, that they may participate in the fur trade in the north-west country. But then I should think that the public in (.'anada and the (Jovernment in Canada would he the last j)ersons to encou''age that expectation ; it wo>ilv only involve the country in distraction, and could benefit ntibody. It might create a disturbance which would be; very prejudicial to the peace of ''e country. 1 am sure the (iovernment of Canada ciinnot desire that. t)0,i6. Can you see any objection to these parties embarking in the fur trade greater now than existed w'nlo you yourself were an authorised party with rei;:ir(l to the Norlh-W est Company ? — Certainly not ; but tlie difHculty was so greui then that we were obliged to have recourse to the extreme measure of converting the whole concern into a moncpoly to ])revent the very grievous consequences which flowed from the competition of the trade. (1057. Did not the Hudson's Hay Company, at the time I am referring to, previous to the junction of the two Companies, claim a>< unlimited and extended a jurisdiction over Rupert's Land as they do now? — Yes, just the sr'-ie. (>o.')8. But you, as the opponent party, did not think that !'iey were entitled to it ? — We slated the best axse wc could against them ; we wr(\ in the character of plaintittM and defendants. 00,59. I" the 1 arliamentary Papers printed in 1H4!), there is an Act of Par- liament for confirming to the Covernor and Company of Hudson's Bay all pri- vileg'es of trade. It was passed in the second year of the reign of William and Mary, in 1(190, and there is a special provision at the end of it, that the Act is only to be in Ibree for seven years ; can you give any explanation how, alter the expiration of the seven ye;irs, the company still continued to possess those privileges: — No. I suppose that there was some disturbance created, either by the French or by other parties at the time, which made it sup])osed to be neces- sary that there should be some Parliamentary sanctiim given to the charter. The Act confirms everything: in the charter foi' the seven years, but saves all the riglits as they then existed. (ioGo. " Provided alv.ays, that this Act .shall conMnue and be in force lor the term of seven years, and from thence tr, the end of the next Session of Par- liament, and no longer"? — Yes. tiotii. That is a very eurious^proviMon to confer powers on a Company which are now supposed to continue ?— But subsequently to that Act of King William. in every treaty and in every Act of Parliament whicii inis been passed relative to that i)art of .Aim rie;i, the rights and privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company have always been saved by the C'rown and by Parliament. Therefore it could not be supposed that they did not exist. 6062. h it your opinion, then, that the subsetpient legislation or .subsequent grants to the Comj)aiiv have given thera a right to this territory, which under this Act they did not possess? — It does not say that they did not possess th ■ rights under that Act ; that Act only continris them. (io6;5. That Act confiniis them for a jjcriod of seven years only r — For v. liniiicd period ; but it does not challenge them in any way. (iot)4. 1 understand that the Hudson's Hay Company claim the extended jurisdidion over Rupert's Land under their charter?- Vcs. bob.',. What was the reason therefore, if that charter was good, that they found it necessary to aj)ply to Parliament?—! reaby cannot toll ; it is a great many years a^o. But in all the subseciuent treaties, and in all the subsetpiuut Acts of Parliament which are passed relating to North America, you have the rights and privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company saved by Parliament and by the Crown. There must have been some rights and privileges to be saved, or they would not have been so saved. tJoCG. I do II ':! •i^'^ ..>/ SFTPdT COMMITTED ON Tlllil HUDSON'S BAY OMPxVNY. 353 6o(ir». T 'lo not sec any saving clause in this Act; it unveys the powers absolutely vith the limit tliat they shall not extend be) d seven years? — That Act IS passed in MiOO. In 1/08 an Act of Parliaiucnt was passed, in the (ith ol .Anne, in which it was declared that it shall b(^ lawful for all her Majesty's uhjects to tni(l(! to any part of Annrica where they might not otherwise lawfully have; traded bt fore the passin}^ of the Act. On the petition of thf Comjiany, supported before a Select Committee by counsel, a clause was added, providing tliat nothing in tin; Act should extend to take away or prejudice any of the estates, riglits and privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company. Now that Act was passed in 1"0H, immediately following I6!»0. Then, in 1744, there are two Acts; then you come to 180H, when there is an Act; in 1818 there is an Act ; and so you have gone on in all these Acts saving the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company. (iodj Are you i'- <:e that this Act was passed on a petition from the Hudson's Bay Con»i)any themselves, in order to exclude other people from the territories in question ? — No ; I am not aware at all of what the particular reasons were ; but I believe there were some difficulties about seizures which the Hudson's Biy Company had made at the time, and which is a very difficult question. t)o(i8. There was such a jietition from the Hudson's Bay Company ? — You will fintl that the jjrayer of that petition was granted by the provisions of the .Act o." Parliament. DOOM. ))rayer of the petition was for " confirming their ])rivi!;:ges, and the better securing the said trade " : — All lawyers know that although a grant to trade may be very good, the difficulty is to enforce it. '1070. Mr. C/irixti/.] In the event of a colony being established, which was in'..f)endent of the Hudson's Bay Company in the southern part of their ter- ritories, and another in the western part of thtir territories, and the Company being • ft in possession of the northern j)art, wovdil you not consider that if a Commissioner was appointed under the Crown, to whom all grievances might be addressed, it would he a very proper provision under such power.* granted to the Company ? — The Crown has now the power, under the Act I'stablishing the right to grant the licence, to r :tablish magis-trates in any part of the ter- ritory it pleases for the administration of justice, and for the protection of all Her Majesty's subjects ; no new power is required. 6071. I ask you whether it would be a very proper provision, provided the Compaxv had the j)ossession which I have suggested ? — The j)rovision exists in the iNct oi Parliament. The llight. Horn £. Ellive, M . p. 33 June 1857. m ■-'^t'\ ■>),.: >o;npaiiy win the e.\tcniic(l Mr. Alexander Isb'u'er, called in ; and further Examined. 6o7'2. Mr. Christj/.] THE ("onnnittee are brin'i;ing their examination to a close, a i it will be neces.sary to condense the questions and answers as much as is prn-< icable to meet the convenience of the Committee, who have a very short time n sit ; 1 propose to ask you some ([uestions in reference to the resourci and capabilities of the territories with which you are acquainted, !in(l upon which you have d<'ri^■ed a great deal of information ; I understand tliat you are desirous to comnumicate information relative to the resources and efii)abiliiies of the territory ? — 1 shall be hapjjy to do so. (io7;5. What opjiortunities have you had of acquiring information upon this subject .'--I have triivelled through the whole country from the frontiers of the United '.. tates U) the Arctic Ocean in one direction, and from Russian America to Hudson's Hay in the other. f)()74. W dl \()u conhne yourself as nuieli as pos.siblo to the information which you liave not already stated ; hav(> you published anything of a scientitic cha- racter ujjon the minerals and products of the (U)uutry ? — I liavc written a geo- logical account of that coinitry. which has been published, with a coloured geological '.aj), in the Qjarterly Journal of the (Jeohjgical Society for ISfiG, and a geographicid memoir and survey {;f the country west of Mackenzie's River, wliieh has i)ccn privitcd in the .lournal of tlic Royal Geographical Society. I have likewise contiibuted several papers on the sanu; or collatend subjects to the British Assoc iation for tlie Advanccn\ent of Science. (io7;-;. Is that niaj) which we have had exposed in the Committee, a copy of one nliMh yon laiii hcfure the (ieological Society in IH.'j,') .' — Yes ; so far as the /; o'l , d part of it is concerned. > :., - Scss. 2. . Y' Y 6o7ti. Do Mr. A. hliilcr. 354 MINUTES OF KVIDKNCK TAKKN UEFOKL THK Mr. A. itbitUr. ••<)7(i. Do you tliiiik that tlicri- nrc any otlicr sources of trade tliiiu that in furs, wliieli nii,i?lit he opened upuitli tluit (•ountry? -Uuijuestioimljh there arc; J3 June 1857. tlie charter exi-icsslv states tliat the ohjeets for vvhioli it is fjranted are " the foundirii? n tr.de in furs, niiu rais, ami otlier eonsiderat)ie eonuutKhtie.^ ;" amongst those eonunoditieH an expressly mentioned the whale fishini^ and the fishing of sturgeon and other fish. (1077. What information are you able ihical Society ; 1 will make a reference to it to prove the value of the fishe > (io7S. To wild j. -'^v- do you rei'er ? — V.v^v l.'iJ. Speakinic with reference to the .Arctic exjieditions which hud been sent in search of Sir .John Franklin, he says: " I iii'cd liardlv remind you of the report from Hn- Secretary of the United States navy ti< the Senate, to ti\e effect th it in eousecpience of iniorma- tion derived from one of our Arctic expeditiims to hehrinj^ Strait, a trach- had sprunif up in America b} the capture of wluUes to the north of that strait of more value to the States than all their (!o nuierce with what i- called tlie Ease. and that in two years there had been added to the national wealth of America, from this source alone, more thai m,000,000 of dollars." ()07p. What is the nature of the access to Mackenzie's Rirer? — 1 think that the United States have opened up tliia access to us, and pointed the vva\ to it. lU'hrinjf's Straits are, as > ver\ one knows, jmssable for ships of iin\ burthen ; and the sea off Mackenzie's River is open for a j^reat portion of the year; soiiu' theorists maintain that it is open during the whole of the year. Those who are familiar with the Arctic works recently published have heard something pro- bably of the " Poh nia " of the Russians, and this is the position in which it is supposed that this Polynia is. N\'e know tliat the sea is open along the Siberian roa«t ; Haron Wran^el has proved it ; he could not get on for the open water. The fisheries of .Mackenzie's River itself are not at present very valuable, but they could of course be developed in connexion with the sea fisheries ; there is, lor instance, a ver\' valuable salmon fishery there, and herrings are in the gre.itest al)undance. .Vs for the fi.sheries in the lakes and rivers, they may perhaps not be immediately aviiilable, but all those lakes are stored with very fine fish, and as salt is abundant, they may be mentioned among the resources which are aviuhible, or may be rendered avail ible by-and-by. In Hudson's Hay itself there arc also very good facilities for tlie whale and seal fishery. It was statcil the other day, I think, b\ one of the commanders of the Company's ships, that he had seen no whales. 1 hajjpeu to have a iiook here containing an official Report laid before Parliament of the imports from Hudson's Ray by the Hudson's R;i\ Company for 10 years, from l";j8 to 1748. ()08(). yh. Ed Irani Kllice.]^(){ what date is that book? — The book itself is dated some time towards the end of the last century. It contains an extract from the Report of the Parliamentary Conniiittee of 1749, i" which it is stated that the Company imported in the year 1747 as man\' as 1,.'U4 whale rins, which of course represented more than iiOO whales. 6u8i. Did they come from Hud.son's Bay .-— It is so stated here; there i.s also a considerable (piantity of oil given in the Return as an ordinary article of import. 60S.'. Does it say whether thev were blae;< or wliite whales ? — It does not .say. I understand that the Hudson's Hay Company, at that time, kept oil fac- tories at Deptford. I speak, of course, under the correctimi of tlie Honourahle Member. There is plenty of salmon also in the Hudson's .Straits. In Ungava Bay there is a very productive fishery, and all along that Labrador coast, cod, salmon, herring, cai)lin, and otlier fish are abundant. 60S;}. From what information do you derive tliese s^tatements ? — I have given the information. 6084. Out of a book • — .A book of a character which is quite unimpeachable. 608.5. What is it .'—The address of Admiral Reechey. 6086. Do you know upon what authority Admiral Reechey has made these statements in the address to the Royal (Jeographical Society ?— He makes the statement he book itsflf is SELECT COMMITTEE OX THE IIIIDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 355 Mnttincnt updri tlic authority of a report of tlic wcmtar} of the United Stati'H navy tu tin- Senate, (>o87. I lien it is upon the evidence of an Amevwan citizen thjit these HUite- lut'Mts iirc made i — Yes. (iiiSS. Chninnnu.' Are there nny other points wi h reftienee tu the reiiources of tlic territory of the Hudson's Hay Companv to \vhi»"l» you an- deMrouH of callinii the attention of liie Coninuttee •-- 1 will di i(l« the nMoiirees of \.\\OfW territories into three head.». tlie tisiieries, tin* animal and vecetahie i)roduct8 iisefnl in eoinnieree. and tin- minerals, and I will state to you the faets under liicli head, if yim will allow me. The fisheries 1 liave already touched upon. With reference \<\ the atdmal ])nKlucts, ev»'ry one is -ware that there are irrent numbers of huttaloes, red deer, and wild horses c iverini: the plains to the west, and from th(i> :in import trade in tallow and hides could Ik; raised, j, 1st as we have it from Hussia. With reference to the vea;etal>le jmnluefs. I think that whatevt'r arows in Russia may be fjrown with iienetit in Hudson's liay. liohp. What do \ ()U mean by Russia : — All our raw produce which we re- ceive Irom Russia, such as Hax, heni)). and corn, could be n»i>edwith profit and advant • in )iortions of the territory around Hudson's Bay. ('■ \w: Lii contains every ariety of climate, from the *, .1,., to Arch- aniii 1 • le to the northen part of RuHsia. Sarsap' - ^ ,!,,s /.: wild over the Hu ,,,iy country, and uf a sui)erior quality. \ .,.1 iMO.WOlbs. of Torn Russia, the llontluras. and other parts. Wh\ .^nouid we not taki -(!! from llmlson's Bay r 4«» (»()(» ^:allons of era nb the Lal)rador tea plant. It was fonnerly imjiorted to this country iiy the Hudson's Bay Company under the name of \Ve<'sucl\iipuka ; tliaf i- the Indian name, it is a tradition that the Fast Iiulia Company interfered Mi its importation ; tliat the Ctiine.>.e took such a . \\ith reference to the ininer.ds, I shall preface what I have to say with the (|iu)tati(i)t of a sentence from Sir .lohii Richardson. He s;iys. speaking of these minerals, "It would he true 1 conomv in the Iniperial (iovernment, or in the Hudson's Bay Company, who are tlu \irtiial sovereigns of the vast territory which si)n.,(ls unrtliward from Lake Siiperidr. to ascertain without delay the mineral tri;.sures it contains. 1 have little doiibr of many i " the accessihle iii>triits jibonnding in metallic wealth of far greater value than all the returns which tlii' fur trade can ever yield." The minerals have been ;ilready alluded to in a general way by Professor Tennant. The extract whicii I have read is from .Sir John Richardson's last book, which I have lure. I am not sj)eaking merel} of ores of which .^ir. Tennant iias given a docrijiiun ; but in the Mackenzie's River district there are numv vahiabh- mineral- which he has not referred to. There are in.mense (iiiantities of salt in a very i)urc state near Great Slave Lak", and a great abundance ef mineral tar, which is useful, and is employed as tar, in fact, by the Hudson's Bav t'omjtany for their boats and river craft. Tin- wiiole of the Mackenzie's River valley is, in fact, a mass of minerals, the banks of the river being comjiosed of deep beds of bituminous slude associated with alum and beds of iron clav. The soil is actually plastic in jiarts with the transfusion of mineral tar : 1 have myself often driven a pole into one ot the natural pits in which it occurs ten feet du'i) without finding any bottom. The river itself is of great deptii ; it would admit vessels of the largest class ; there is not a single interruption in it from the Arctic (Jcean down to the Great Slave Lake. tuioi. Is there anything more which you wish to >tate upon tiiat ])oint / — There is abundance of iron ore along that country, and there arc many other minerals besides. ()G()2. Mr. Charles ritzwillium.] Do 30U know of any other jiass over the Rocky Mountains hesides that which is followed by the Iludsuii's Bay Company in their expresses • — There are three passes ; one through the Peace River, 0.24 — Sess. 2. Y Y :J which Mr. A. hbiittr. 93 June 1I57. ^^J # .^% v). <9 /2 / c'V ■ ;> % s 92. '%' om /A IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 2.8 I.I 1^ ^ X'il 1: 1^ ||M 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 8/2-4503 i 356 MINUTES:— HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. Mr. A. Milter, which actually flows right through the moutitaiiis ; there is one from the northern branch of the Saskatchawan, and one near the southern branch , 23 June 1857. which is the pass thsit was followed by Sir George Simpson when he went over. 6093. Could wheel carriages cross that southern pass ? — They did so. There were a number of emigrants, amounting to about 200, who left Red River the very spring that I left it myself to come to England ; they went across the country from Red River with their cattle and carts, and went righ t down to Fort Vancouver with all their property. 6094. Mr. J. H Gurney.'] Did they keep on British territory all the way? — I cannot speak positively on that point; I do not think that they themselves knew, or could know. There is just one other point which I would mention. I am anxious to lay before the Committee a petition which I liave recently received from the Red River settlers, signed by some hundred names, which wiU be found appended to it. 6095. Chairman.] Is that a petition to the House of Commons ? — It is a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly in Canada, and sent he re to me by a Member of that Assembly. 6096. Mr. Mdward Ellice.'] Is that the same petition which was put in by Mr. Roche ? — I did not see that petition. 6097. When you say that it has been sent to you, by whom has it been sent to you? — By Mr. Macbeth, who presented the petition to the Legislative Assembly, and who is himself a native of the Red River Settlement. ViWe Appendix. fiogS. Will you have the goodness to hand it in? — [The Witness Miveredin the same.) [ 357 1 LIST OF APPENDIX. "li SESSION I. !h was put in by Appendix, No. 1. Extract fiom the Report fnim the Committee appointed to Inquire into the State i>nd Condition of the Countries adjoining to Hudson's liny, and of the Trade carried on there : 1740, p, 3S0 Appendix, No. 2. Papers delivered in by Sir George Simpson, and referred to in his Evidence, 2 Match 1857 : (A.)— Land Dctd p, 301 (B.)— Statislical Account of Red River Colony, taken on the 20th to the 24th of May 1800 p. 303 (C.) — Indian Population ..........p. 305 (D. 1.) — Regulations lor promoting Moral and Religious Improvement - - p. 308 (D. 2.)— Extract from the Minutes of a Council for the Southern Department of Rupert's Land, held on the 30th May 1 SSI p. 30S (D. 3.) — Copy of Agreement prohibiting Use of Spirituous Liquors on North West Coast p. 308 Appendix, No. 3. Tapers delivered in by Mr. A. Iibister, fi March 1867 : Correspondence between Mr. Abbott Lawrence and Viscount Pnlmenton, respecting a Complaint alleging that the Hudson's Bay Company furnish large Quantities of Spirits to the Indians on the North-Western Frontier of the United States • - p. 309 Deed of Land to Joseph Monkman, 12th day of March 1844 .... p. !)7i Appendix, No. 4. i'aper furnished by the Rev. G. O. Corbett, and referred to in Question 3773 of his Evidence, 6 Marvh 1847 : Extract from Minutes of Meeting of the Governor and Council of Rupert's Land, held at Red River Settlement, 10 June IH45 p. 373 f 'I' m Ml; m W SESSION II. Appendix, No. 5. Copy of the Letter addressed by Mr. Chief Justice Draper to Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, bearing date May 1857, together with a Copy of tlie Memorandum therein referred to. --.---.--.--- p. 374 Appendix, No. 6. Paper delivered in by Mr. Chief Justice Draper, 28 May 1857, relative to Canadian Boun- daries p. .178 Appendix, No. 7. Statistics of the Red River Colony p. 381 Appendix, No. 8. Report from the Select Committee appointed to receive and collect Evidence and Informntion as to the Rights of the Hudson's Bay Company under their Charter, the Renewal of the Licence of Occupation, the Character of the Soil and Climate of the Territory, and its Fitness for Settlement ••P- "BH 0.24 — Sess. 2. Y Y 3 Appendix, , ! ^Ir' ' [ 358 ] wr, Appendix, No. 9. Letter from H. Mcrivale, Ebc]., to the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General ; with En- rloAurc ..............p_ 4^2 Appendix, No. 10. Letter friim the Right Honourable H. Labouchere, m. p., to the Chairman of the Iludton's Bay Company - p. 404 Letter from the Chairman of the Hudson's Bay Company to the Right Honourable H. Labou- chere, M.v. p. 405 Appendix, No. 11. Copy of the existing Charter or Grant by the Crown to the Hudson's Bay Company ; together with Copie.> or Extracts of the Correipondence which took place at the laiit Renewal of the Charter between the Government and the Company, or of Individuals on behalf of the Com- pany ; also, the Dates of all former Charters or Grants to that Company - - ' P- 407 Appendix, No. 12. Petition from the Board of Trade of the City of Toronto to the Legislative Council, presented 20th April 1857 p. 435 Appendix, No. 13. Letter from E. A. Meredith, Esq., to the Hon. Chief Justice Draper, c. n. - - - p> 430 Appendix, No. 14. Letter from R. G. Sniitli, Esq., to Major Caldwell, Governor of Asainiboiu - - - P- ^'if Appendix, No. 1.'). Petition of Inhabitant-, and Natives of the Settlement situated on the Red River, in the Assini- boin Country, British North America ...------ p. 437 Appendix, No. 16. Letter from the Conunittee of tho Aborigines Prolection Society to the Right Honourable Henry Laboucher*, M. p., Chairiniin - ..-....--- p. 441 Letter from F. W. Chesson, Esq., .Secretary to the Aborigines Protection Society, to the Right Honourable H. I.al)ouchero, »i. p., Chairman - - p. 444 Letter from Peguis, Chief of the Snulteaux Tribe at the Red River Settlement, to the Aborigine Protection Society, London p. 4-*J App'nidix, No. 17. List of the Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's Bay, November i.-. , - - p. 44(i Appendix, No. 18. Letter from R. G Smith, Esc]., Secretary to the Hudson's Bay Company, to H. Merivale, Esq- ; with Enclosures .-----------•p. 440 Appendix, No. 19. Copies or Extracts of Dospatchts received by Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonirj, on the subject of the Estiiblislunent of a Representative Assembly at Vancouver's Island, p. 450 '5 1 ji '.■.'- i^lli i II ^;! i^Lk [ 359 ] APPENDIX SESSION I. Appendix, No. 1. EXTRACT from the Repout from the Committee appointed to Inquire into the State and Condition of the Countries adjoining to Hudsoti's Bay, and of the Trade carried on tliere. 1749. To the Right Honourable the Lords of a Committee of His Majesty'8 most Honburable Appendix, No. i. Privy Council. — — . May it please your Lordships, Iff humble obedience to your Lordships" Order in Council of the 4th of February last, representinnf that, by an Order in Council, bearing date tlie 26th day of January last, there was referred to your Lordships tlic humble petition of Arthur Dobbs, esq., and the rest of the committee appointed by the subscribers for finding out a )»»ssaije to the Western and Southern Ocean of America, for themselves and the other adventurers; and that your Lordships, having taken the said petition into cimsideration, were pleased to refer the same to us, to consider thereof, and report our opinion thereu]X)n to your Lordships. Which petition sets fortli, that the petitioners, in the year 1740, did, at their own costs and charges, fit out two ships upon an expedition in search of the north-west passage io the Western and Southern Ocean of America, in order to extend the trade, and increase the wealth and power of (ireat Britain, Ijy finding out new countries and nations to trade with, as well in tiie great north-western continent of America, beyond Hudson's Bay, as in cauntrii's still farther distant, and hitherto unknown to the Europeans ; and also to many large and populous islands in that great Western Ocean. That the petitioners, by means of the said expedition, have made several discoveries of bays, inlets, and coasts, liefore unkno n, and have a reasonable prosiect of finding a passage to the Siputhcrn Ocean, by sea, although the discovery may no^ be iierfected without reiK;ated trials, upon .account of the ditbcidtios and danger of searching ditt'erent unknown inlets and straits, and sailing through new seas, and of procuring men of resolution, capacity, and integrity, to pursue it etfectually. That the petitioners find that the reward of 20,000 /., given by Parliament, is not adeciuate to the expense tiic advtnturcrs must be at to jierfect the discovery, they having already exi)ended above half that sum in their late expedition. That the ])etitioncrs find that, upon a former attempt, his Majesty's predecessor King Charles the Second, as a suitable encouragemcut, granted a Royal Charter to the Governor and Company of Adventurers of England, trading to Hudson's Bay, making them a body corporate for ever, upon their petition, setting ft)rth that they had, tit their own proper costs and cliarges, made an expedition to discover a new passage into the South Sea, and for finding some trade of furs, mines, and other conmiodities ; and gave them the sole proj)erty of all the lands they should discover, together with an exclusive trade to all the conntrics wit!>in Hudson's Straits, nut in ])o9session of any of his subjects, or of any other Christian piiwcr. with the royalties of mint s, minerals, gciiis and royal fish, to enal)le them to find out the ]iassage, extend tlic trade, and to plant the countries they should discover, paying two elks and two black beavers, whenever and as often as bis Majesty and his successors should enter their territories ; granting to tliem the greatest ]invilege» .as lords proprietor, saving only their faith and allegiance to the Crown of Great Britain. , The petitioners beg leave to oijservc, that the said Company have not since efl'eclually, or in earnest, searched for the said passage, but have rather endeavoured to conceal the same, and to obstruct the discovery tliercof by others ; nor have they made any new discovery eitlier upnii the const, or in the inland countries adjoining to Hudson's B.ay, since the grant of their charter; nor have they taken possession of or occupied any of the laiuis granted to thorn, or extended their trade into tiie inland parts of the adjoining continent ; normaile any |ilantalions or .-cttlenKMits, e.Kcept l'o\n' factories, and one small trading-house, in all which they have maintained, in time of peace, alimit 120 persons, servants to the Com|)any ; nor liave \]\oy allowed any other of liis Majesty's sultjeets to plani, settle, or trade in any of o.q— Sess. 2. Y Y 4 the 3(Jo APPENDIX TO UEPOUT FROM THE If !- J L iil ir '■ m Imm 'ill 1 j 1 JJIH ili Appendix, No. i. *l>e countries adjoining to tlie Buy granted to tlicni liv tluir clmrtor; yet liavc connived at or allowed the French to encroach, ccttlc, and tnule within their liuiitM on the south eidc of the Bay, to the great detriment and lofS ot' Great Britain. Tliat the petitioners, being deftiroua to imrsiic the discovery of the pasdage to the Southern Ocean of America by land or liy water, will engage not only to ]iro8ecutc the same until it be thoroughly discovered as far as [iraeticablc, but also to settle and impn)vc the land in all the countries on that northern continent, by making alliances with and civilising the natives, and incorporating with them, and by that means lay ii fbundatioi^ for their becoming Christians, and industrious subjects of his Majesty ; and also extend the British trade into the heart of that northern continent around the Bay, and into bucH countries as they may discover beyond it in the Western Ocean, and to use their utmoet endeavours to prevent the French encroachments ujion the British rights and trade in that continent. In order therefore to enable the pctiticmers to prosecute and bring to perfection so valu- able a discovery, and to civilise the natives and settle the lands without loss of time; and that the trade and settlement of such extensive countries may not be longer delavcd, or perhaps for ever lost to his Alajesty and his successors, by the encroachments of" the French, — The jietitioncrs most humbly pray, that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to incorporate the petitioners and the other subscribers for finding out the said passage, or such of them and sucli other jjcrsons as they shall engage in the said undertaking, and their suc- cessors for ever, and grant to them the jiroperty of all the lands they shall discover, settle, and plant, in a linuted lline, in the northern continent of America adjoinin" to Hudson's Bay and Straits, not already occupied and settled by the i)resent Comi)any ot Adventurers trading to Hudson's Bay, with the like jirivileges anil royalties as were granted to the said Company : and that his Majesty would be pleased to grant unto the petitioners (during the infancy of their settlements) an exclusive trade, for such a term of years as may be granted to discoverers of new arts and trade, to all such coimtries into which they shall extend their trade by land or by water, not already granted by Act of Parliament to other companies, reserv- ing to the i)rescnt Company of Adventurers trading to Hudson's Bay all the Torts, factories, and settlements they at present occujiy and possess, with a reasonable district round each of their possessions and factories; or that his Majesty would be pleased to grant the peti- tioners such other'relief and encouragement as to his Majesty in his great wisdom should seem meet. We have taken the same into consideration, and have been attended by counsel both in behalf of the petitioners, and the Hudson's Bay Company, who oppose the petition, as it interferes with their charter. The petitioners insisted on two general things : that the Company's charter was either void in its original creation, or became forfeited by the Company's conduct under it. That the petitioners have, by their late attcnji)ts to discover the north-west passage and navigation in those parts, merited the fav(jur petitioned for. As to the first, the petitioners endeavoured to show, that the grant of the country and territories included in the Company's charter was void for the uncertainty of its extent, being bounded by no limits of mountains, rivers, seas, latitude or longitucie, and that the grant of the exclusive trade within such limits as there were, was a monopoly, and void on that account. With rcsjiect to both these, considering how long the Company have enjoyed and acted under this charter, without intoi"rui>fion or encroachment, we cannot think it advisable for bis Majesty to make any express or im])licd declaration against the validity of it, till there has been some judgment of a court of justice to warrant it ; and the rather, because, if the charter is void in either respect, there is nothing to hinder the petitioners from exercising the same trade which the Company now carries on ; and the petitioners' own grant, if obtained, will itself be liable, in a great degree, to the same objection. As to the sup[)08ed forfeiture of the Company's charter by nonuser or abuser, the charge uiKjU that head is of several sorts, viz. : That they have not discovered, nor sufficiently at- tempted ,0 discover, the north-west [lassagc into the South Seas or Western Ocean: That they have not extended their settlcinciits through the limits of their charter : That, they have designedly confined thiiir trade to a very narrow compass ; and have for that purpose abused the Indians, neglected their own forts, ill-treated their own servants, and encoiu'aged the I'rench. But on consideration of all the evidence laid before us, by many affidavits on both ?iilc9 (herewith enclosed), we think tlu'so charges are ither not siitficiently supported in ]ioint of fact, or in a great measure accduiited for tVoni the natiin; or circumstances of the case. As to the petitioners' merit, it consists in the late attempts made to discover the same pas- sage ; which, however as yet lln^tl(•l'l•ssful in the main point, may probably be of use hero- after in that discovery, if it shonld ever be made, or in opening some trade or otlier, il any should hereafter be found practicable ; and have certainly lost the petitioners consideiahlo sums of money. JJut SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANX. 361 But. ns the prant i)ropo8e(l is not necesBarv in order to prosecute any future attempt of the like icind, and the charter of the Hudaon s Bay Company decs not prohibit the petitioncrB from the use of any of the ports, rivers, or seas ineiuded in their charter, or deprive them of the protection of the present settlements there, we humbly submit to your Lordships' con- sideration, whether ii will be projier at (jresent to grant a charter to the petitioners, which must nccessarilv break in upon that of the Hudson's Bay Company, and may occasion great confusion by the interfering interest of two companies setting up the same tratle against each other in the same parts, and under like exclusive charters : All which is humbly sub- mitted to your Lordships' consideration. D. Ryder. 10 August 1748. W. Slurray. (True copy.) W. Sharpe. Appendix, No. 1. Appendix, No. 2. PAPERS delivered in by Sir George Simpson, and referred to in his Evidence, Appendix, No. 2. 2 March 1857. h-west passage and (A.) LAND DEED. •THIS INDENTURE, made the day of , in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and forty between the Governor and Company of Adventurers of England, trading into Hudson's Bay, of the one part, and of of the other part. AVuEHKAS the said is desirous of becoming a settler upon the land hereinafter described or intended so to be, being certain part of a territory in North America, belonging to the said Governor and Company, and held under the Crown by charter. Now, therefore, this inbenture witnesseth, That, in considemtion of and in consideration also of the covenants hereinafter contained on the part of the said they, the said Governor and Company, do hereby grant, demise, and lease unto the said his executors, administrators, and assigns, ALL THAT piece or parcel of land, being of lot No. , as described at large in the official survey of Red River Settlement, and containing, more or less, English acres, with the necessary .ippurtenances thereto. To have AND TO HOLD the said piece or parcel of land hereby demised or intended so to be, and every part thereof, with the appurtenances, unto the said his executors, administrators, and assigns, from the day next before the day of the date of these presents, and for and during and unto the full term of One thousand years, thence next ensuing ; yielding and paying therefore yearly and every year, during the said term, and upon the Michaelmas day m each year, the rent or sum of one pepper-corn, the first payment whereof to be made upon the Twenty-ninth day of September next ensuing the date hereof. And the said for himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators, doth hereby covenant and agree with the said Governor and Company, in manner following, that is to say, that he the said shall or will, within forty days from the date hereof, settle and establish himself or them- selves and continue to reside upon the said hereby demised land, and shall or will, within five years from the date of these presents, bring or cause or procure to be brought into a state of cultivation one-tenth part of the said hereby demised land, and thenceforth con- tinue the same in such state. And that, during the said term, he the said his executors, administrators, and assigns, shall not, directly or indirectly, mediately or immediately, violate or evade any of the chartered or licensed privileges of the said Governor and Company, or any restrictions on trading or dealing with Indians or others, which have been or may be imposed by the said Governor and Company, or by any other competent authority, or in an\ vay enable any person or persons to violate or evade, or to jjersevere in violating or evading the same ; and, in short, shall obey all such laws and regulations as within tlie said settlenjent now are, or hereafter may be, in force, for pri'venting tiie distillation of spirits, for preserving internal peace, for repelling foreign ag<;re3sioii, for uiaking and ri'|)airing roads and bridges, and for encouraging and promoting general education iind religious instruction. And that he the s.iid his executors, luJministrators, or assigns, shall or will from time to time, and at all times during the said term, contribute in a due proportion to the expenses of all public •'Stablishments, whether of an ecclesiastical, civil, military, or other nature, including tiierein the maintenance of the clergy, the building and endowment of schools which arc or shall 0.24 — Sess. 2. Z z or Lot No. Term, 1,000 years. One-tenth of the land to be brought into cultivation within fire years. Reservation of Indian trade, &c. Distillation of spirits. Sii|)|.jrt of epclesim- tical, civil, and tnih- tary cstablishineiils. ii'; \0 M IIP 11' ' i'l ■■'■f l-> I un set APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE t ''■■ > Appendix, No s. or mny be formed under the authority of the charter or cliartcra hereinbefore referred to. And also that he or thov at proper geasons in every year, and in or towards the niakini and repairinjj of such roads and highways as lie within miles from the said hereby demised premises, shall and will employ himself or themselves and his or their servantu, horses, cattle, carta, and carriages, and other necessary thini/s for that purpose, where and when required so to do by the surveyor or overseer for the time being, appointed for the making and amending public roads, bridges, and highways within such limits as aforesaid ; such remiisition, novertnoless, in jwint of time, not to exceed six days in each year, computed day by day, and from Michaelmas to Michaelmas. And also that he the said his executors, administrators, and assiirns shall not, nor will, without the licence or consent of the said Governor and Company lor that purpose first obtained, carry on or establish, or attem]it to curry on or establisli in any parts of North America, any trade or traffic in or relating to any hind of skins, furs, peltry, or dressed leather, nor in any manner directly or indirectly aid or abet any person or per- sons in carrying on such trade or traffic ; nor shall nor will at any time or times during tlic said term distil, or cause or procure to be distilled, spirituous liquors of any nature or kind soever, cither upon the land hereby demised, or within any other part of the territories belonping to the said Governor and Comjjany in North America, nor during the said term, knowmgly suffer or permit any other person or persons whomsoever to distil any such liquors upon the said demised land, or any part thereof. And the said for himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators, doth hereby further covenant wii,n the said Governor and Company, and their successors, that he the said his executors, administrators, and assigns, will use his and their best endeavours to maintain the defence and internal peace of the territories of the said (lovernor and Company in North Anierica, and shall and will be chargeable therewith according to such laws and regulations as are now in force in resjjcct of the same territories, or as shall from time to time be made by competent authority ; and also that he the said his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall not nor will at any time or times during the said term, or by any direct or indirect, mediate or immediate manner, ways, or means, infringe or violate or set about or attempt to infringe or violate, or aid, assist, or abet or set about or attempt to aid, assist, or abet, or supply with spirituous liquors, trading goods, provisions, or other necessaries, any ])er8on or p«rsons whomsover, corporate or incorporate, or any prince, jiower, potentate or state whatsoever, who shall infringe or violate or who shall set about or attcuipt to infringe or violate the exclusive rights, powers, privileges, and inmmnities of commerce, trade, and traffic, or all or any other oi the exclusive rights, powers, privileges, and immunities, of or belonging or in anywise appertaining to, or held, used, or enjoyed by the said Governor and Company and their successors under their charter or charters, without the licence or consent ol'the said Governor and Company, and their successors for the time being, first had and obtained. And lastly, that he the said his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall not nor will, at any time during the said term, underlet, or assign, or otherwise alienate, or dispose, or ])art with, the actual possession of the said land hereby demised or any part thereof, for all or any part of the said term, or any interest derived under the same, without the consent in writing of the said Governor and Comjjany for the time being first had and obtained. And also that he the said his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall or will, within six calendar months from the date hereof, as to these presents, and within six calendar months from the date of each respective assignment or under-lease, to be made under or through these presents ; and witn respect to each such assignment and under-lease respectively, cause these presents and every such assignment or under-lease, when made, to uq registered in the register of the said territories in North America, or of the district in which the said hereby demised land shall be situate, and wherever such register shall be kejjt at the time. Provided always, nevertheless, and it is hereby declared and agreed, that if the said his executors, odministrators, or assigns, shall not in all things well and truly observe and perform all and every the covenants and agreements herein contained, on his and their behalf, to be observed and performed, then, and iti either of such cases, and either upon or after the first breach, or any subseciuent breach or breaches of covenant, and as to any subsequent breach or breaches, notwithstanding there may have been any waiver or waivers, or supposed waiver or waivers thereof, by the acceptance of rent or otlierHise, it shall or may be lawful to nnd for the said Governor and Company, and their successors or assigns, to enter into and upon the said hereby demised promises, or any part thereof, in the name of the whole thereof, and to have, hold, retain, and enjoy the same as in their former state, and also to put an end to, and determine the said term of one thousand years, or so much thereof as shall be then unexpired, and all and every person or perstjns then occupying the same premises, or claiming title thereto, to put out and amove, anything hereinbefore contained to the con- trary notwithstanding. In witness whereof, the said parties to these presents have here- unto set their hands and seals, the day and year first above written, at Red River Settle- ment aforesaid. Signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 363 before referred to, swnrda the nmking nsclf or thennrlvcs eceswiry tilings for rseor for the time d highway* within , not to exceed six lelnias. And nlao, rutorfl, and a8iii|{n», r and Company tor or establish in nny ■ skins, furs, peltry, any person or jicr- tr times during the any nature or kind ■t of the territories iring the said term, ' to distil nny such thcr covenant wii,i) eavours to maintain )r and Company in g to such laws and I shall from time to or times durinu; the !r, ways, or means, ,id, assist, or abet or uors, trading goods, orate or incorporate, ;e or violate or who ivers, privileges, and [le exclusive rights, :rtaining to, or Held, jccssors under their and Company, and LY, that he the said 8, shall not nor will, inate, or dispose, or part thereof, for all without the consent had and obtained, tors, administrators, hereof, as to these 'tivc assignment or respect to each such ry such assignment territories in North lall be situate, ond s, nevertheless, and his executors, and perform all and ehal^ to be observed er the first breach, ibsequent breach or or supposed wMver lay be lawful to and enter into and upon the whole thereof, and also to put an thereof as shall be e sanie premises, or jntained to the con- presents have here- Red Kiver Settle- (B.) A STATISTICAL ACCOUNT of Red River Colony, taken on the 20th to the 24th of May 1856. Year. Number of FamiliM Ages. Religion. Country. ^ r IBS6. ATcr«ge, 6,JJ, per Family 8 a a a 1 i a s a S5 1 s a S 1 S 2 3 1 1 a 1 H I J 5 1 JB m i 6 X 1 I j ■ 156 - ■ 1,082 5 243 276 220 153 85 58 15 4 488 60 534 40 13 116 92 I 816 X 1M9- - 1,052 - 240 252 227 170 92 37 14 - 539 - 513 46 27 129 161 3 684 2 IncruH - 30 5 3 24 - 21 1 4 - 60 21 - - - - - 132 - DtcniM • - - - - 7 17 7 - - - 51 - - 6 14 13 69 2 - - Year. Population. Dwellings. Men. Women. Sana. Danghtera. Total. X 1 1 ' = 18Sp. Married. ^ Un- narried. Married. Va. married. Above 16. Under 16. Above 15. Under 15. Male. Female. Total. m ■ - 9B6 237 992 298 521 1,481 451 1,557 3,225 3,298 6,523 922 1.232 399 \w - - 873 U5 877 13A 382 1.314 373 1,292 2,714 2,577 5,291 745 1,066 335 Increue - 113 92 115 163 139 167 78 265 511 721 1,232 177 166 64 Decreue • 92 - - - - - - - - - - - - M i!^!- Year. Live Stock. Implements, j f 1856. 1 Horwt. : Marea. Oxen. BulU. Cowa. CaWea. Pig.. Sheep. Plonghg. Harrowa. Carte. Canoea. BoaU. 18i6 - - 1,503 1,296 2,726 290 3,593 2,644 4,674 2,420 585 730 2,045 522 : '^^ 1M9 • - 1,095 990 2,097 155 2,147 1,615 1,565 3,096 492 576 l.D'S 428 40 lunue - 40S 306 629 135 1,446 1,029 3,109 - 93 154 94 15 •x. Deereue - - - - - - - - 667 - - - - j 1 Year. Land. Machinery. Piiblio Buildings. 1 Loss of Animals during Winter, 1B55 am' 18S0. >i; 18 56. CultiTated at TwoBuahel Wheat per Acre. • 4 s 1 1 1 S 1 1 1 1 1 is 1 1 m i i le a t ^ t 1 Aeret. U56 . . 8,371 i« 9 R 2 6 I 9 17 56 1 16 3 21 16 43 57 28 m ■ . 6,392 i 18 1 - - - - 7 12 - I - - - - - - - IncieiM - 1,978 J - 8 8 2 6 1 2 > 5 56 i - - - - - - - - BimMe. - 2 - - - - - - - ' - - - - - - - - 0.24— S( !S8. 2. Z Z 2 If i H!l^': 11^*^ 3^4 APPENDIX TO IIEPOIIT FROM THE ,1;.:' » AvKRAGE Value of the above Dwcll'mgR, Live Stock, Iinplemcnto, and Machinery. HentM. 25 Hoiiirt, 100 Hoiiwi, at ,100/. ruh. ' ut I00<. rich. £.. ,. d. 7,500 £. ». d. 10,000 200 Hnuiri, 200 IIouM>, •I .50/. nch. I at 25/. each. t. t. dJ £. I. d. 10,000 5,000 - - 397 lIouM*. at 12/. each. £. ». .each. £. ». d. 13,572 - - £. I. d. 8,982 lU - 2,644 CaUw,' 4.674 Pip, I |(,*^^ l/.Slch. '»O..0d.each.|,j,'^^ £. .. d. £. ,. d. 2,644 12,453 17 - £. ,.d. 1,457 8 - Barnt. 199 Barm, > 2U0 Dirni, at 12/. tKh £. f. d. 2,188 - - at H/. ••cb. £. I. d. 1,600 - . Iniplonicnta. 585 Ploaihi, at 730 Hirrowi, at 4/.10>.each.: &». each. £. ,.d.\ £. ,. d. 2,032 10- 182 10 - 2,045 S22 Carta, Canoei, •t at I/, etch. ' 12j. each. £. i.d. £. I. d. 2,045 - - 313 4 - 95BoiU, it l;)/.«ch. £. ». i. 815 - . Machinery. IC MUli, at 100/. CMb. £. f.rf. 1,600 - - I I • 9 Water- 8ThretbiD| 2 Retpin| G i r.,ji„ milli, I Millt, Mtchinet, Winnowinj '^"°'°« at *^ at Macfainn, MiU. 150/. etch. 40/. each. 30/. each. ! at 2/. each. Total Amount. DwelUag*. I Uto Stock. £. t. d. £. I. d.' £. $. d. £. I, d. £. t. d. \ I 1,350 - - 1 320 - - GO - - 1 12 - - i 35 - £. f. d. £. f. d. I 49,260 - - 52,901 5 - Implementt. Mtchinerf. OtAND Tom. £. t. d. £. : d. £. i.S. S,998 4 - 3,377 111,536 9- COURTS. Total. Petty Local CourU. Quarterly uenerai couns, loao-oo. Petty Offences. Augait. 1 NoTcmber. Februarf. Mtj. i Nnmber , of Caiet Trttpau. Caact of Utmtfe u)d Mil- demeanor. Ground Pri»Uege. Aiunlt and Bcttory. Defamation of Cbarater. Totil Number of ClM. Noctiei. NoctMa. One caie. > No ctie*. 1 1 6 1 1 I n Petty Local C'lttt— continued. Debt. From From From From From From w 5/ 10/ 20/ 30/ 40/ to 5/. to 10/. to 20/. to 30/.' to 40/. to 50/. 4 8 5 4 2 1 From 50/ to 60/. From 60/ to 70/. From 70/ to 80/. From 90/ to 100/. Total Number of Caiei. 27 Total ADOUDt ofiU the 38 Cuei of Petty Coorti for One Yeir. £. I. I 46 13 C Diitrict of Aiiiniboit, 1 Jnoe I8S6. Wmum R. Smtik, Seentuj. T. 0. Johnion, Goremor of Auiniboii. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY id Machinery. Barnf. 199 Birni, •t 12/. neb. 2U0 ntrni, •1 »l. nek. £. .. A 2,588 - - £. .. J. 1,600 - - plomcnU. 2,045 Ctrti, ■t I/. e«ch. i lit.neh. < ''''•"'''• I £. ..d. £. .. d. £. ,, A ,04& - - 313 4 - 8» - . I : lount. rati. MMhlnery. ' .j.^^^^ r. d. £. f. d. £. i. White Dog - • ft Lac de Bonnet . Lac de Bois Blanc Shoal Uke - . tf Norway House - n Looalily. Indian Territory Rupert's Land Indian Territory Rupert's Land Indian Territory Rupert's Land Department. Northern »> » DUtrict. Athabasca M'Kenzie's River » English River Saskatchewan Cumberland Swan River Red River Lac la Pluiu Norway House Number of Indian! fireqaentlng it. .i,H«' 'MM 0.24 — Sess. 2 ZZ3 (fontiimed) 3M APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE I Appenilix Nu. <. Niifnhtr of POST. VoeiMtj. DtptrtDMBl. DittrUt. InillaiM frntunUiii II. Rcrpii'ii Riv«r Ru|M>rt's Land Northern - Norway House ■ HO NelnotiB Hirer »» • " II II • 400 York Factory >t ' ' II York . . . flUO Churchill - II * ■ II * II - • - 41)0 8ev8ni • fi " " II II * ■ • 3ftU Trout iMkti • H ■ ' II II " " " •ino Uxtoril HouM >• " * II " Albany iJUO Alb«iiy Fu( tory l> " " Southern • 400 Marten'ii Fulli H " " » II " " 300 ()»niil)ur){ » " " ii II * " 300 I,BC St'ul » ■ " II II ■" • 300 MniiiwnKniiiingue tl " " » Kinogumiisue 'i.-iO KurkllU)u»ll - » " " II • II " " lAO Micliipicoton Canada i» Lake Superior 800 Dntclicwiinn • >» • " " •I II " " lilO Miiiimiiiso • »( - i» II ■ • SO Pic - - »> - - ■ II i» - • 100 LoiiK lAko • Rupert's Land II •• ■ • HO Lake Niuigun Canada II II * • QSO Fort Wi hum If ' ' II II " " :iso Pi|;con Kiver » * " II • 11 - • SO Lac d'Uriginal 19 " ■ II 11 - • SO Lai.'louliv l» * * II Lake Huron ISO Little Current tl • • II 11 • - 500 Misri^sauiric Oreen I^ke - >l " ■ II 11 "■ ■ ISO » ■ * If II " " 150 Whitcli^h Lake »• " " II 11 - - ir,o Sault St Mnrie II ■ " II Sault St. Marie - 1.50 Moosi! Factory Rupert's Land II Moose \H0 lluniiiih Bay 11 " • •• II • - CO Ahjtibi >i ■ " II 11 ■ ■ ■MO New Brunswick II " " II •I ■ - ISO GrtMt Whale River II * ■ 11 East Main • mo Little VVhrtlu River II ■ " II 11 ' " ■J60 Fort Gcorjje 11 " ' II II " ' ','00 Ru|)( rt'i lIouBe - II ■ " 11 Rujiert's River - iiSU Miotutinny . - - » " " II II " ' aoo Toiiii.ikiiinay II " " II II 7S Wiiswonahy - - - 11 " ■ II 11 " " 160 MiM liiskan - » " " 11 11 " " 76 Piko Lake - 11 " " •1 11 ■ ■ 80 Niti'hcfjuon - - - »i - • II 11 HO Knniupisoow II * " 11 II ir, Triiiiscamiiiguo Houie - Canada II Temiscamingue - 400 Griitid Lac - II - • • II 11 * " 200 Kiikiiheagino Rupert's Land It 11 ■ - 100 Luke Xepiiingue • Canada II 11 1.30 Hunter's Ix)dge • II " " II II - - 100 Tt'iiiiignmingue II ^ ■ II Fort Coulonge 100 Lac (lea Allumettea II ■ " Montreal - 300 Joucliin . - . II " " 11 11 " " 75 Mntawii . . . II " * II 11 " ■ 100 Buckingham II ■ " II Lac des Sable* 50 Itivicre Desert II ■ * 11 11 ■ ■ 100 1ji( hint' llou»e I " * 11 Lachine Whites. Thre" Rivers II ■ " 11 St Maurice - Whites. Weyinontachingue >' • " 11 II 160 Kikiindutch II " * II 11 " ■ 130 Tadousiic . . . II " ■ 11 King's Posts 100 Chicoutimie - - - II ■ ' 11 II " * 100 Lake St. John's - II * " II II 250 Tsle Joremie II ■ " II 1. 260 Guilboiit . . . II • ■ 11 II ' ■ 100 Seven Isliinds II " ■ II 19 300 Miiijiaii . . . 1 II * * II Mingan 600 Munquarro - • . II " " 11 II ■ ' 100 Nato^quan - - . Nnrth West River II " " ii 11 " " 100 1 Newfoundland ii Esquimaux Bay - 100 Foil Nasaopie Rupert's Land II II 300 lli'^olct Newfoundland II ii 100 Kibokok Washington Terri- tory. Oregon Territory - II 11 100 Fo?t Vancouver - Oregon Columbia - 200 Umpqna • II 11 ■ ■ 800 SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THR HUDSON'S BAY COMPANV. ntj; Nnnihtr of InUUiu rrn|uiiitln| ll. 180 400 800 400 •iM) •2M) ilOO 400 'JOU ■JOU 300 •j;.o \so auo loo so 100 HO 3S0 ;i8o (JO no 160 000 ISO 160 l.-)0 l,iU IMO f.0 u&o 130 ^60 •J60 'JOO 360 200 7fi 100 70 80 HO 75 400 200 100 130 100 100 300 75 100 50 100 Whito*. Whites. 160 180 100 100 250 350 100 300 600 100 100 100 200 100 100 200 800 Nunilitr of POST. UMllitJ. Otputmral. DUtriot. InilUiu frwjuinllni 11. Ca|it> Di^tappointnient • Wiisliiiif(tun Terri- tory. Oregon Columbia • 100 Chinook I'oinl II "II II 100 Ciiwt'uiiiiin • " •! * * "11 „ . . too Ch«nipoo«!(( • Oru^o" Territory • II II • - 160 Niiqu»ll,v -NV cOAv •. - i» n - - 600 CoweliU • ■ II II 11 3S0 Fort Colvilc Waihinirtou Terri- tory. liHimn Territory • >» Colvile 800 I'eiid Oruilki lliver " w II 400 Flttt HeiiilH • Wushmglon Terri- tory. || II • • 000 Kuutonai* • " II ■ ' II . „ • . 600 Okiiiiiigiiii Walhi Wulli. Js/^Vrorritory '■ II II i» - • Snake Country 300 800 Fort Hi.ll . - • II * II II • • 300 Fort Uoigt'o ll " " II II " " 300 Fort Vicioriii Vancouver's Island Western • Vancouver's Island 6,000 Fort Rupert - »i ■ * »i ■ II ■ ■ 4,000 Nanuiino " II - ■ II >i • • 3,000 Port Liingley Indian Territory - • II Eraser's River /North West CoMt \ Northern Tribes - 4,000 10,000 Fort Sim |won II II 35,000 K»mloop8 • Fort Hope - >» • • II • • ■ II ■ " II • JThompson's River 3,000 8tuart'H Lake II ' II New Caledonia • M'l^od'g Lake - II • " ■ II ■ »i Frascr's Lake ll * II II • - Alexandria - - - II " ■ II II * " 19,000 Fort George •» " " II II " • BabinoB ... II " * * 11 II • " Connolly'a Lake - II ■ " II II " " Honolulu Sandwich Islands • * II " II — Add Whites and half breeds in Hudson's '. Bay Territory, not included • 6,000 Add Esquimaux not enumerated Total - - • 4,000 168,060 The Indian Races shown in detail in the foregoing Census may be classified as follows : Thick wood Indians on the cast side of the Rocky Mountains The Plain Tribes (Blackfcet, &c.) The Esquimaux ........ Indians settled in Canada ....... Indians in British Oregon and on the North-west Coast Total Indians • . ■ Whites and half-breeds in Hudson's Bay Territory Soub - . - 86,000 36,000 4,000 3,000 80,000 147,000 11,000 168,000 0.24— Sess. 2. z Z4 368 APPENDIX TOREPOilT FROM THE Ap|ien(li.x, No. a. tii'- ^ I 'i (D. 1.) REGULATIONS for promoting Moral and Religious Improvement. Retolved, Ist. That, for the moral and religious improvement of the servants, the more cfTectunl civilization and the instruction of lliu families and Indians attached to the difTercnt establishments, the Sabbath be duly observed ns a day of rest at all the Company's posts throughout the country, and Divine service bo publicly read with becoming solemnity, at which all the servants and families resident be encouraged to attend, together with any of the Indians who may be at hand, and whom it may be proper to invite. 2d. That in course of the week due attention be bestowed to furnish the women and children with such regular and useful occupation aa is suited to their age and capacities, and best calculated to suppress vicious and promote virtuous habits. 3d. As a preparative to education, that the women and children at the several posts in the country oe always addressed and habituated to converse in the language (whether English or French) of the father of the family ; and that he be encouraged to devote a portion of his leisure time to their instruction, as far as his own knowledge and ability will permit. COPY of the 40th and 59th Standing Rules of the Fur Trahk, established by the Councils of the Northern and Southern Departments of Rupert's Land. 40th. That the Indians be treated with kindness and indulgence, and mild and con- ciliatory means resorted to in order to encourage industry, repress vice, and inculcate morality ; that the use of spiriiuous liquors be gradually discontinued in the very few dis- tricts in which it is yet indispensable ; and that the Indians be liberally 8up])licd with requisite necessaries, particularly with articles of ammunition, whether they have the means of paying for it or not, and that no gentlemon in charge of district or post be at liberty to alter or vary the sUindard or usual mode of trade witli the Indians, e.xcept by special per- mission of council . 59tli. That not more than two gallons of spirituous liquor, and four gallons of wine, be sold at the depot to any individual in the Company's service, of what rank soever he may be. (D. 2.) EXTRACT from the Minutes of a Council for the Southern Department of Rupert's Land, held on the 30th May 1851. Resolved, 42. " In order to enforce habits of temperance throughout tlie Company's territories, it is resolved, " That from and after this dq,te, no spirituous liquor be issued from the Moose depot. either to the Company's officers or servants, to strangers, or to Indians; that nn equivalent be mack for ihc drams which it has heretofore been customary to give, either in tea, sugar, molasses, liiscuit, tobacco, or ammunition ; that the allowance of brandy to the ( 'in]iany, to discontinue this ii^rrccment, in so far as the same rchites to or is a])plicablc to that part of the coast to the soutliward of hititudc 54° 40'. This agrcenj'-Mit to have effect from the date hereof at New Arcliangcl, or wherevor else the Kussian American Company have dealings with Indians on the north-west coast, and from the date of tlic renei[>t of a copy thereof at the establisiimcnts of Takoo, Stilcine, Fort Simpon, and Fort M'Loughliu. Given under our hands and seals, at New Archangel, this 13th May 1842. (signed) George Simpson. (\,.%.\ Adolphm Etholen, (L..S.) Appendix, No. 3. ih the women and and capacities, and he several jiosts in language (whether uraged to devote a jge and ability will Appendix, No. 3. PAPERS delivered in by Mr. A. Mister, 5 March 1857. CORRESPONDENCE between Mr. Ahhott Lawrence and Viscount Palmerston, respecting a Complaint alleging that the Hudson'a Bay Company furnish large Quantities of Spirits to the Indians on the North-western Frontier of the United States. established by the rt's Land, I, and mild and con- vice, and inculcate n 'he very few dis- rally 8up]>lied with hey have the means post be at liberty to iept by special per- gallons of wine, be lat rank soever he artmcnt of Rnperfs )ut the Company's the Moose depot) that an e<[uivrtlent fither in toa, sugar, to the (.'ompany's imported to Moose orth-wcst Coast. that arise from the is Iicrcby ngvi'cil liv (' of till' Iloiiourablc the lm])i'vial navy, i)f Aincricii, acting hall be I'oKl or "riven whatsoever, by any ishmrnts or vessels «i\ their liclinif, "ti thward of latitude to the protection of the No. 1. Mr. Lawrence to Viscount Palmemton, United States' Legation, My Lord, 1.38, Piccadilly, 12 February 1850. • Repuesentatioks have been made to the Government of tiio United States, from Appendix, No. 3. reliable sources, that the Hudson's Bay Comj)!'- y annually furnish to the Indians on the —^ north-western frontier of the United States larg>. 'v antities of sj)irituous liquor, endangering thereby the peace of the border, as well as corrupting the Indians Uienisclves. It has been the jwlicy of the United States to prevent, as much as possible, the use of spirituous liquors among the natives. The interests of Her Majesty's Government are believed to be identical with those of the United States in this respect. As comjilaints of this nature iiave been frequently made to the Government of the LTnitcd States, and it has become satisfied that they are well founded, I have been instructed to make this practice the subject of a friendly remonstrance to Her Majesty's Government, and request it tn co-operate with the Govern- ment of the United States in the repression of the evil, by issuing suitable instructions to the Hudson's Bay Company, or in stich other manner as nuiy best accomplish the desired result. I have the honour, therefore, to ask your Lordship to lay this remonstrance before the proper department of Her Majesty's Government, and to request its co-operation in a measure dictated by policy, as well as demanded by humanity. I enclose a copy ot a letter to the Secretary of State of the United States, accompanyin<» my instructions on this subject, and I have, (signed) &c. Abbott Lawrence. Enclosure in No. 1, Mr. Siblet/ to Mr. Clayton. House of Rei)resentatives, Sir, Washington, 8 December 1849. There exists on oii'* north-western boundary a state of things which calls imperatively for the interference of the Government. 1 refer to the immense amount of spirituous liquor which is imported by the Hudson's Bay Com[)any annually, not only for their trade in the British possessions, but which is furnished to the Indians who reside and hunt within the limits of the United States. That this evil exists to a very gi-eat extent, and renders null all the cflbrts of our Government to prevent the introduction of anlont spirits into the Indian country, is a fact which can be established by incontestable testimony, and has been already made the subject of memorials to the ])ro])er department. My object in making the communication which I have now the honour to address you is, to ascertain whether there would be any imjjropriety in having the matter brought to the notice of the British Govern- ment, in the shape of a friendly remonstrance from you to the Minister of that Power. I know of no other way to accomplish the proposed end, which is the repression of an evil of great magnitude, threatening the peace of our north'-wcstern frontier. I have, &c. (signed) Henry W. Sibley. ';:j|t. \%i IP' 0.114— Scss, 2. A No. 2. W hi 370 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Ippmdis, No. 8- No. 2. Viscount Palmeriton to Mr. Lawrrnce. Sir, Foreign Office, 1 1 Ai)ril 1850. I T)in not fail to refer to Her Majesty's Principal Secr(?tary oC State for the Colonics your letter of the 12th of February lust, ronionstratinij; aj^ainst the practice allejTpd to be l)ursue»l by the Hudson's Bay Conii)any, of furuishin;; auiiually to tlie Indians who reside and hunt within the limits ot the United States, larj^e (juantities of spirituous li(|uor8 ; and I have now the honcnir to transmit to you herewith a copy of a letter which Earl Grey hag received I'rom Sir John Pelly, the (.iovernor of the JIuilson's Hay Company. In that letter. Sir John Pelly states that spirits are never given to the Indians by the Hudson's Bay Conii)any in the way of trade, either on the frontiers or in any other part of' the territories of tlu; Company. Sir John Pelly states, however, that persons re.-idinir at Red River Settlement and at Pembina, within the American frontier, carry on ah extensive anu illicit traffic in furs with the Indians residing within the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company, and that great quantities of spirituous li(|uors are sold to the Indians in the course of that traffic ; and Sir John Pelly adds, that although the Hudson's Bay Company employ all the means in their power to suppress this traltic, their ettbrts have been in a great measure defeated by the encoura^ uieut which it receives on the American side of the border. I am, &c. .signed) I'almertton. ;r'.ii:. Enclosnre in No. 2. Sir John Pelly to Earl Grey. Hudson's Bay House, London, My Lord, ^ 9 March 1850. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Mr. Under Secretary Hawes' letter of the Sth instant, accompanied by the copy of a letter from the office of the Secretary of l^atc lor Forei<5n AflFairs, enclosing a remonstrance from tho Govemment of the United States against tlic jiractice alleged to be pursued by the Hudson's Bay Company of furnishing large quantities of spirituous liquors to the Indians on the north-westeni frontier of those States. Mr. Hawes adds a request on the jiart of your Lordship that I would make a report to you on the allegations cont.ained in those papers. To the allegations contained in this remonstrance, and in the letter of Mr. Sibley, on which it appear-; to be founded, I have no hesitation in giving the most unqualified denial. Spirits are never given to the Indians by the Hudson's Bay Company in trade, either on the frontiers or in any other part of their terriU)ries. The average quantity of spirits annually supplied to each of the frontier posts, according to the best information to which I have access at prese; '. ''oes not exceed twenty gidlons. A small portion of this not ^ery extravagant supply, rcnoercd harmless by dilution, is given to the Indians as a " regale" when they bring the produce of their hunts to the station, in conformity with a custom of long standing. Avhich it has been found impossible to discontinue without altogether abandoning the fur trade in a large district of country. Whether this can endanger the peace of the frontier, I leave your Lordship to judge. Far be it from me, however, to say that si)irits are not used, and that in large (niantitios, in trading with the Indians on the frontiers. The Hudson's Bay Company are well awure that an illicit traffic in furs is eiyried on to a great extent within the Conqiany's territories by persons residing, some at Red Rive" Settlement, and others at I'emliina, within the American frontier; that the article chiefly used by those persons in this traffic is spirits. and that the furs so procured invariably find their way to thefiu'-traders at St. Peter's. This is the evil which endangers the peace of the frontier, if it lie endangered, and which the Hudson's Bay Coinpanj' are using every moans in their ])ower to suppress : lint their effort? towards this end have iieen in a great measm-e neutralised by the eneouragement given 10 it from the American side of the bonier. The Am 'ican Government, I am aware, has establislu'il stringent regulations against the use of spirits in tlie Indian traile, but it is a well-known I'aet that tliose regulations are evaded, and that spirit* are even clandestinely introduced into the Company's territories by citizens of the United States. In a country situated as these frontier districts are, it is not an easy matter Xt) give effect to regulatior.s or laws, to the lireach of which there is so strong a temptation in the gain to which it leiuls; but 1 can confidently assure your Lordship of the readiness of the Hudson's Bay Coin]»any to use the most strenuous exertions to I'lury ont any measures which Her Majesty's Govermncnt and the (jovernment of tlic Umtcd States may agree upon as best adapted to repress the evil in question. I am not sorry, my Lord, that this subject has been brought under your Lonlship's notice, as it aff()rds me an oj)portunily of correcting the erroneous statements which have been made in Parliament, aud ])romulgat('d through the press, respecting the (juantities of spirits imported into their territories by the Hud.-on's Hay Company. Your Lordship will ]>robal)ly be ■■urprlM'd when I inform you that, from the year IH42 to 1840 inclusive, the average quantity annually imported by the Company into the whole »' the territories under their control, to the east and west of the Rocky Mounuiins, is only 4,396 A SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 371 4,396^ gmllons; a quantity which, if distributed unly to the men cmplojed in the service Appendix, Mo. ^ in daily allowunces, would amount to less than two table-spoonfuls to each man. It ia to -— • be obiterved, too, that out of the above-mentioned <|uantity the troops stationed at Red Kivur Settlement in 1846, 1847, and 1848 (whose cuusumption in dauy rations alone was upwards of 4,500 gallons) hod to be supplied, and alMO the corps of pensioBcrs who suc- ceeded them. Thcrauy do htreby grant, demise, and lease unto the said Joseph Monhman, iiis executors, administrators, and assigns. All that piece or parcel of land distinguished in the survey of Red River Settlement iis No. 142, and thci'ciu described, the whole con- taining one hundred and twenty-five statute acres or thereby, and well known to the said Joseph Monhman, with the necessary uppuitenanccs thereto. To have and to hold the said piece or parcel of hind hereby demised or intended so to be, and every part thereof, with the appiu'tenances, unto the said Joseph Monhman, his executors, adiniuistrators, and assigns, from the day next before the day of the date of these jn-csents, and for and during and unto the full term of one thousand years, thence next ensuing ; yielduig and p.aying therefijre yearly and every year, during tlie said term, and upon the Aliehaelmas day in euoli year, the rent or sum of three peppercorns, the first payment whereof to he niaile uptn tiic twenty-ninth day of September next ensuing tlie date hereof. Ani' the said Jost'i'h Monhman, for himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators, doth hereby 'ovcnant and agree with the said Governor and Conij)any, in manner following, that is to say, That he the said Joseph Monhman shall or will, within forty days from the date hereof, settle and establish hiniseli' or themselves anil continue to reside upon the said hereby demised land, and siiall or will, within five years from the date of these presents, bring, or cause or procure to be brought into a state of cultivation one-sixth part of the said hereby demised laud, and thenceforth continue the same in such state. And that he the said Joseph Monkmun, his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall or will from time to time, and at all times during tlie said term, contribute in a due proportion to the expense of all public establishments, whether of an ecclesiastical, civil, military, or other nature, including dicreiu the maintenance of the clergy, the building and endowment of schools, which are or shall or may be formed under the authority of the charter or charters hereinbefore referred to. A:<1> aUo that he or they, at proper seasons in every year, and in or towards the making and icpairing of such roails and highways as lie within two miles from the said hereby demised premises, shall and will employ himself or themselves, and his or their servants, horses, cattle, carts, and carriages, and other necessary things for that jiurposc, where and when i'0((uired so to do by the surveyor or overseer liir the time being, appointed tor the making and amending public roads, bridges and highways, within such limit as aforesaid ; such rcfjuisition, nevertheless, in jioint of thue not to exceed six days in each year, Computed day by day, and from Michaelmas to Michaelmas ; and shall or will use his or their tmdeavours tor the benefit and support of the clergyman to whom or whose coumiuuion he or they shall belong, by employing himself', or themselves, and his or their servants, horses, cattle, carts and carriages, and other things neeessiu'y for the purpose, not exceeiling at and after the rate of three days in the spring, and three days in the autumn of each year, and in every other respect, when ami whereby the said clergyman shall appoint. A^D also that he the said Joseph Monhman, his executors, administrators, and assigns, shall not nor will, without the license or consent of the said Governor and Company for that purpose first obtained, carry on or establish, or attcnijit to carry on or establish in any parts of North America, any trade or traflic in or relating to any kind of skins, furs, iir peltry, nor dressed leather, nor in any iiianuei' directly or indirectly aid or abet any person or persons in cai-rying ou such trade or trafhc; nor shall nor will at any time i>r times during the said term, distil or cause or procure to be distilled, sprituous liquors of any nature or kind soever either upon the land hereby demised, or within any odier part of the territories belonging to the said Governor and Company in North America, nur during tlie said term, knowingly sutler or jiermit any other person or persons whom- 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 A a soever. i I 111 1 '■! "I ' 1^' ■If; ¥: ■iri!';'M II :y 'I; .■ If'-, 372 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 3. soever, to distil any such liqucrs upon the said demised land, nr nny part thereof. And — ■ also that he the said Joseph Monkman, his executors, administrators, and assifrna, shall not nor will at any time export beyond the territories of the said Governor and Company any effects, being the produce of the said land, or acquired by the said Joseph Monkman, liis executors, administrators, and assigns, within the territories of the said Governor and Com- pany, and intended to be exported by him the said Joseph Monkman, his executors, admi- nistrators and assigns, other than and except at Port Nelson (one of the ports belonging to the said Company), and in shins or vessels or in a ship or vessel belonging to or in the service of the said Governor ana Company to be conveyed to the port of Loudon, and there to be lodged and deposited in some or one of the warehouses belonging to or used for that purjwso by the said Governor and Company, and with power to sell and dispose of the same effects on the account of tlie said Joseph Monkman, his exceutoi's, administrators, and assigns. And also shall not nor will import any goods or effects into the territories of the said Governor and Company in North America, or any part thereof, other than and except from the said port of London, and through some or one of the warehouses belonging to or used by the said Governor and Company for the warehousing of goods in the said port of London, and other than and except in a vessel or vessels, ship or ships belonmng to the said Governor and Company, or in their service. And also that he or they snail or will pay and allow to the said Governor and Company in respect of all such produce, goods and commodities, whether exported or imported, all charg<'s as and for and in the nature of gaugage, wharfnge, warehouse-room, and commission for sale, which shall be or con- stitute the average or ordinary price or prices in similar cases, together with such charge for freightage as slmll at the time or respective times be 'fair and reasonable ; and shall and will allow, or pay as in the nature of a custom or duty, any sum not exceeding five pounds, for and upon every one hundred pounds in value or amount of the produce, goods and oomniodities which shall or may be conveved to or from Port Nelson from or to the port of Lond i.artl V, that he the said Josi-ph Monkman, his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall not nor will, at any time during the said term, under-let, or assign, or otherwise alienat*, or dis- ])ose, or part with, the actual possession of the said land hereby demsed. or any part thereof, for all or any part of the said term, or any interest derived under the same, without the consent in writing of the said Governor and Company for the time being first had and obtained. And also that he the said Jusi'ph Monkman, his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall or will, within six calendar months from the date hereof, as to these presents, and within six calendar months from the date of each respective assignment or under-lease, to be made under or through these presents; and with respect to each such assignment and under-lease resjiectively, cause these ])resents and every such assignment or under-lease, when made, to be registered in the register of the said territories in North America, or of the district in which the said lun-eby demised land shall be situate, and wlierev( r ""ch register shiill be kept at the time. Puovided always, nevertheless, and it is hereby declared and agreed, that if tin; said Joseph Monkman, his executors, administrators, or assigns, shall not in all things well and truly observe and perform all and every the cove- nants and agreements herein contained, on his and their behalf to be observed and performed, then, and in either of such cases, and either u|)on or after the first bri-ach, or any subsequent breach or breaches of covenant, and as to any subsequent breach or breaches, notwithstand- ing there may have been any \\aiver or waivers, or supjiosed waiver or waivers thereof, by the aceepfaince of rent or otherwise, it shall or may be lawful to and for the said Governor and Company, and their successors or assigns, to enter into and u])on the said hereby demised premises, or any part thereof, in the name of the whole thereof, and to have,, hold, retain, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 373 part thereof. And id osBiirng, shali not r and Company nny oseph Monkman, liis Governor and Com- lis executors, adini- c porta belonging to onging to or in the f Loudon, and there ig to or UHcd I'ur that and dispose of the , odininiatratora, and he territories of the her than and except mses belonging to or I in the said port of ps bclonginn; to the or they shaU or will such produce, goods for and in the nature licli shall be or con- with such char<;c for nablc ; and shall and ccceding five pounds, produce, goods and from or to the port le or in amount than commodities shall be oases of importation, r and Comimny sums ti value or amount to d ui)on the actual and is of sales at London Lecutors, and adniinis- iipany, and their sud- ors, and assigns, will al peace of the terri- lll and will be charge- brce in respect of the authority : and also issigns, shall not, nor indirect, mediate or nttempt to infringe »t, or abet, or supply PS, any jierson or per- •ntateli or state wliatr tempt to infringe or commerce, trade, and and immunities of or lie said (iovernor and .10 license or consent of first had and obtainetl. rators. or assigns, shall (M'wise alienate, or dis- (1. or any part thereof, le, without the consent irst had and obtained, listrators, or assigns, to these presents, and lent or under-lease, to such assignment and unent or under-lease, North America, or of _;, and whercvc r ""ph less, and it is hereby i>rs, administrators, or and every the cove- served and performed, eh, or any subsequent reaches, notwithstand- )r waivers tliereof, by for the said (iovernor upon the said hereby of, and to have, hold, retain, retain, and enjoy the same as in their former state, and also to put an end to and deter- Appendix, No. 3. mine the same term of one thousand years, or so much thereof as shall be then unexpired, and all and every person or persons then occupying the same premises, or claiming title thereto, to put out and amove, anything hereinbefore contained to the contrary notwith- standing. In witness whereof, the said parties to these presents have hereunto set their hands and seals, the day and year first above written. For the Governor and Company aforesaid. Dun. Finlayseon, Governor of Assiniboiui (l. s.) Joseph Monkman. (I.. S.) ' Signed, scaled, and delivered, in the presence of George Taylor, of Red River Settlement, Surveyor, and John Black, of the same place. Clerk in the service of the said Governor and Company. George Taylor, Witness. John Black, Witness. Appendix, No. 4. PAPERS furnished by the Rev. G. O. Corbott, and referred to in Question .377.3 of his Evidence, 5 March 18.57. EXTRACT from Minites of Meeting of the Governor and Council of Riipeit\t Land, held at Red River 'Settlement, 10 June 1845. Resolved, \. That, once in every year, any British subject, if an actual resident, and not Appendix, No. 4. a fur trafficker, may import, whether from London or from St. Peter's, stores free of any duty — ~— now about to be imposed, on declaring truly that he has imjiortcd them at his own risk. 2. That, once in every year, any British subject, if qualified as before, may exempt from duty, as before, imports of the local value of ten pounds, on declaring trulv "that they are intended exclusively to be used by himself within Red River Settlement, and have been purchased with certain specified productions or manufactures of the aforesaid settlement, exported in the same season or by the latest vessel at his own risk. 3. Tl'.at, once in every year, any British subject, if qualified as before, who may have personally accom|)anied both his exports and imiwrts, as defined in the i)reccding Resolution, may exempt from duty, as before, imports of the local ^■alue of oO /., on declaring truly that they are either to be consumed by liimsclf, or to be sold liy himself to actual consumers within the aforesaid settlement, and have been purciiased with certain specified productions or manufactures of the settlement, carried away by himself in the same season or by the latest vessel at his own risk. 4. That all other imports from the United Kingdom for the aforesaid settlement, shall, before delivery, pay at York Factory a duty of 20 per cent, on tiu'ir i)riint' cost, provided, however, that the Governor of the settlement be hereby authorised to exempt from the same all such importers as may, from year to year, be reiisonably believed i)v liim to have neither trafficked in furs themselves since the 8th day of December 1844, uor enabled others to do so by illegally or improperly 8up[)lying them with trading articles of any description. 5. That all other imports from any part of the United States shall pay all duties payable under the provisions of 5 & 6 Vict. e. 49, the imperial st^ttute for re<'-ulatin<'' the foreign trade of the British possessions in North America ; la-ovided, liowever, tlm"? the Governor-in-Ciiicf, or, in his absence, the President of the Council, may so modif'v the machinery of the said Act of Parliament as to adapt the same to the circumstances of the country. 7. That henceforward no goods shall be delivered at York Factory to any but persons duly licensed to freight the same, sucli licenses being given only in those cases in which no fur trafficker may have any interest, direct or indirect. 8. That any intoxicating drink, if found in a fur trafficker's possession, beyond the limits of the aforesaid settlement, may be seized and destroyed by any person on the spot. AVhcreas the intervention of middlemen is alike injurious to the Honourable Company and to the people ; it is Resolved, 9. That henceforward furs shall Ijl- purchased from none but the actual hunters of the same. Fort Garry, 10 July 1845. I" u t l^'ii •o.a4~Se88. 2. 3A3 \\'iU\, 374 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE SESSION II. Appendix, No. 5. Appea dix, N o. 5. COPY of the Lettek addressed by Mr. Chief Justice Draptr to Ilcr Majesty's Secretary of State for tlic Colonies, hearing date 6th May 1857, together with u Copy of tho Mkmoiiandum therein referred to. Sir, ;}3, Spring-gardens, 6 May IHUJ. In the last interview with which you favoured me, I tooic occasion to advert to the ques- tion of boundary between Canaort of those views which more innnediately affect the interests of Canada. I have suggested a i-eferenee to the Judicial Committee, because I think its opinioa would command the ready ac(|uiesceueeof the inhabitants of Canada as to their legal rights, and because I believe they entertain a very strong opinion that a considerable portion of the territory occupied or claimed by the Iludsoa's Bay Company will be found to lie within tlie i)ro|ier limits of that Province. Whether it would be desirable to sever this from the more general question t>f the legality and validity of the charter, is a matter I should desire to leave for your consideration, but in any event I think it expedient that counsel should be permitted to attend to watch the interests of the Province. I have, &c. The Right Hon. H. Laboucherc, (signed) IVm. II. Draper. &c. &e. &c. Memouandu.m enclosed in Cldef Justice Draper's Letter of May 6th, to the Secretary of State. It is not proposed at present to' discuss the validity of the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company. A cartful peru»a] of it will sug^a-st many doubts whether it be not altogether void. But a.ssum'mg that it maybe sustjiinable for every or for any <.'f the purposes for which it was intended, and for the moment conceding that the indefiniU' description of the territory purporting to be granted does not vitiate the grant, there is a question as to the limits of that territory in which the province of Canada is decpK interested. The parts of the charter bearing on this qiu'stion are as follow : — 1. " All the lanils and territories upon ibc countries, coasts, und confines of the seas, b.ays, lakes, rivers, creeks, and sounds aforesaid" (stated in a preceding part to be those which lie within the entrance of the straits commonly called Iliuison's Str.aits, in what- soever latitude such bays, Ikr., should be), " that are not already actually possessed by or granted to any of our subjects, or jwssessed by the subjects of'uny other Christian prince or state, with the fishing of all sorts of lisli, whales, sturgeons, and all other royal fishes in the seas, bays, inlets and rivers within the premises; and the fish therein taken, together with the royalty of the sea upon the coasts within the limits aforesaid, and all mines royal, as well discovered as not discovered, of gold, silver, gems, and precious stones, to be found or discovered within the territories, limlls and places aforesaid ; and that t!ie said land be from henceforth reckoned and rciiuteil as one of our jiliuitations or colonies in America, called Rupert's Land : And, further, we do by these juesents, for us, our heirs and successors, make, cre.ate, and constitute the said Governor and Company for the time being, and their Bueceshors, the true and absolute lords and proprietors of the same territory, limits, and places aforesaid, and of all other the premisesj hereby granted as aforesaid, with their and every SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 375 klnjesty'.s Secretary ith a Copy of the >ni^, 6 May 18/57. advert to the quea- mu wliich reiiuireil irica involved in tlic an I undcrstocxl, to upany, an expressed lie last ibrty yearn, lenioranduui to you jct'ive and consider, truction ol' the lan- fiintiid are in\olved, .[udiciul Coninilttee I ou the [lart of the t be deemed neccs- iniediately attect the I think its opinioa to their legal rijjhts, laiderablc portion of )0 found to lie within istion of tlie legality ;on»idcration, but in ittend to watch tlie &c. IVm. n. Draper. th, to the Secretary the Hudson's Bay be not alto^'cther -f the purposes for W description of the question as to tlie ited. -■onfines of the seas, ng part to be those I's Straits, in whnt- lUv possessed by or ■ Christian priiiee or ;.'r roval fishes in the iikcni, together with all mines royal, us ones, to be found or ic said land be from 1 in Aiiicrica, called pirs and successors, ne being, and tlieir i-ritorv, limits, and ;iid, with their and every every of their riglitt*, members, jurisdictions, prcrogativcB, royalties, and appurtmnnceR Appendix, No. 5. whatsoever, to them the said Governor and Company, and their successors for ever, to be — — holden of us, our heirs and successors, aa of our manor of East Greenwich, in our county of Kent, in free and common socoage." And, 2. " jVnd furthcnnorc, we do grant unto the said (iovcrnor and Company and their successors, that they and their successors, and their factors, servants, and agents, for them and on their behalf, and not otherwise, shall for ever hereafter have, uie, and enjoy, not only the whole, entire, and only trade and tratfic, and the whole, entire, and only liberty, use, and privilege of trading and trutbeking to and from the territory, limits, and iilaces aforesaid, but also the whole and entire trade ami truffic to and from all havens, bays, creeks, rivers, lakes, ami seas into which tlicy shall find entrance or ttassage, by water or land, out of the territories, limits or places ai'oresaid, and to and witli nil the natives and jicoplu inhabiting within the terriU)ries, limits, and places aforesaid, and to and wiih all other uation.S' inhabiting any of the coasts adjacent to the said territories, limits, and places which are not granted to any of our subjects." I'rior to this charter, there was little or nothing done within Hudson's Bay in the way of taking any actual possession of the territory granted. The bay had been discovered, several shijis from time to time had entered it, and probably some interchange of com- modities with the Indians had taken place while the vessels remained within the straitu ; but nothing whatever was known of the interior. Charles the Second claimed, for it was no more than a claim, all the territory which the discovery of the straits and bay could confer on the British Crown. The French Crown in like manner had claimed, by reason of their actual settlement of Canada, and of their progressive discoveries and tiwle, not only all the western territory, including that now in dispute, but even the bay of the north, and thence to the Pole ; but neither French nor English had, in 1670, actually pene- trated, so far as ap|)ears, within many hundred miles of the Red Kiver. The settlements niatle by the Hudson's Bay Company were at first confined to those on the shores of James Bay, and at the (yhurcliill and Hayes Rivers. Henley House, wltich is about 150 miles up the Albany River, wa« not ei'ected before the year 1740. The Company afterwards erected I'ort Nelson, which is laid down on the maps at about 200 or 2.30 miles from the mouth of Churchill River, and the fort at Split Lake, which is represented as about 140 miles from the mouth of the Nelson River. It is believed that these two last-named forts are of eomiiaratively modern erection, but that, at all events, for more than a century after the date of the charter, these, together with the forts on or near the shores of the bays, wen; the only settleil posts of the Hudson's Bay Company. This throws some light ujMin the view, which the Company practically ado|>ted, of the extent of their territories. In many written documents they treat Hudson's Straits and Bay as tlie governing and principal matter, in reference to or for the purpose of securing which, the grant of territory wns made to them. In a jietition addressed by the Hudson's Bay Company to Charles the Second in 1682, they say that his Majesty was graciously jileascd to incorporate them, and to grant to them for ever all the said bay, and the straits leading thereunto, called Hudson's Straits, with all the lands and territories, rivers, and islands in and about the said bay, and the sole trade and commerce there ; and, referring to a letter of Monsieur De la Barre, the Governor of Canada, threatening to drive them out, they observe, they doubt not but that by the King's Royal authority and protection, they will be enabled to defend his undoubted ridit and their own within the bay, " wherein never any nation but tlie subjects of yoiu- Iinperial Crown has made discoveries or had any commerce." In a letter, dated 25 January 1796-7, they urge, "-whenever there be a treaty of peace between the Crowns of England and France, that the French may not travel or drive any trade beyond the midway betwixt Canada and Albany Fort, which we reckon to be within the bounds of our charter." Jn 1698, in a letter written bv their deputy-governor to the Lords Commissioners of Tnule, they repeat the same desire. In a memorial, dated in June 1699, they represent the charter as constituting them the true and absolute proprietors of Hudson's Bay, and of all the territories, limits, and places thereto behmging. 'Ihcy further set forth the attacks made in 1682 and 1686 by the French from Canada, and their a]iplicatioiis for redress, and the declaration made by James the Second that he, iqion the whole matter, did conceive the said Company well founded in their demands, and therefore did insist upon his own right and the right of his subjects to the whole Bav and JStraits of Hudson, and to the sole trade tliereof ; and they pray the then King, William the Third, to insist upon the inherent right of the Crown of England and the property of his subjects not to be alienated, that so considerable a trade might not be lost, and the Hudson's J3ay Company "be left the only mourners" in the peace of Ryswick. At this time all their forts but one (Albany Fort) had been taken by the French; some of tlioni, indeed, while the two Crowns were at peace ; an act of aggression specially referred to by his ^lajesty in the declaration of war in 1689. Ill January 1700, being called upon by the Lords of Trade and I'lantations, they offered proposals for limits between them and the French in Hudson's Bay, insisting at the same tune upon their undoubted right '' to the whole Bay and Streights of Hudson." The proposed limits were, to confine the French from trading or building any house, factory, or fort to the northward of Albany River, situate in about 53° of north latitude on the west main 0.24 — Sess. 2. ;} A 4 coast, • '■(•.•'.jii m M Ilr-i, 31*^ APPENDIX TO REPOllT FROM THE Appendix, No. 5. ciuisi, or to the uorllnvard oC llii|iort'i4 Itlvcr, on the caxt iiiniii or lUxiHt ol' tin; Imy, l>liulinT llu'liicclvc.'* iiDt ti) tnido lioidd bo ccttled; flutinj;, tlmt it' tiie Frcncli rclu.-'cd, llicy niii.t iimiKt upon tlii'ir priiir und undonhtcd rijrht to tlic nvIuiIc Day and Straits of Hudson, wliicii, tliey oimorvcd the French never yet wouhl strietly dii1' it. 'riii'j<(' liniitu I till! I'laiiiiH of lii.s iiiir.-, ol)(iorvin;r that CO, ftavc it no \\m\u tioii nimli" lit covcial anil imrticuliu'iy in •ntioncd i)y tin- wiid > of till' bay, or iiny ii'cs^ly to mention it ircd to till! Fri'iu'li tinio aftiTwiirda Imd ■\n<^ masters of tlu; (light their furs over die {jreat care your I'ludi are ol)li{;;cd to t of the Crown of Company proposed ir, nlioiild commence atitude of 58 J* N., i!>!i on the coast of centre of Lake Mis- north latitude ; and li nor the Enj^lisli to count of the motives he liiii)py rcatoi-atinn larticiilar that some discovery and right to to adventure the settle forts mid iiic- aij;cs many hundred iider by the French r desire further on ^nli', nil It'viiiit ipii est dite iiiconiiuo # * mentioned n» the east and south-eastward boiindarir.'* of the said Company's territorieo, and Appendix, >ro. ji towardH the north, all the lands that lie on " the north end, or on the north side, or coast, ~~~^ of the said bay, and extending from the bay northwards to the utmost limits of the lands there towif I ■ the North I'ole ; but where or how these lands terminate, is at present unknown. . d towards the west, nil the lands that lie un the west side or coast of the said bay, n,;-,. vXtcndinjj from the bay westward to the utmost limits of those lands, but where or how those lands terniinato to the westward is also unknown, thouirh iirobably it will be found they terminate on the (jreat South Sea. And towards the soutli, all the lands that lie on the south end, or south side of the const of the said bay, the extent ofwhich lands to the south to be limited and divivlcd from the |daccs appertaining to the French in those parts by a line," &t'.., describing the line from C!ape I'eiilrix to the 49th jiarallcl, and aloiij; that parallel westward, as in their pro|iosals of August 1711), excepting that they state the sfarting jioint to be in latitude 59 J X. They add, with regard to this boundary, that, " to avoid as mueh as |K)ssible, uny just grounds for differing with the French in agreeing on those boundaries which lie nearest their settlements, it is laid down so as to leavi! the French in possession of as much, or more land than they can make any just pretensions to ; and n't the sauio time leaves your iiicinorialists but a very small district of land from the south end of the said bay necessary for a frontier." It is worthy of remark, that this line would have given to France the southerly [Minion of the Lake of the Woods, Kiiiny Kiver, and Uuiny Lake, whicli are now claimed as within the Company's territories. The foregoing extracts are deemed suflRcient to e8tabli. f"'* townnN «nu ; iit tlm Liiko of the VV\mji1h ; Luku Winnipeg', uiiii two, it U hclifvoil, 1)11 till' Suxkntc'lifwun, which are rfl'i-rred to hy Sir AluxuiiUcr W'KcnziH in UU nrrount of hin diHcoverifi'. Enou((h, it iit hopuU, htu been xtutcd to r<\u,\v tliiu the limits of tlic Iludt-nn'ii Rav Cum' pnny'rt territ4)ry ure uit opi'u to (|lH'^>tieoj)lo of Canada can look for a solution of it. The rights of the Hudson's Bay Com])aiiy, whotever they may be, are deriveil from the Crown ; the Province of Canada has its lioundaries assigned by the some authority; and now that it appeurs to Ijc indispensable thnt those boundaries should \)c settled, and the true limii-oi Canada ascertained, it is to Her Majesty's (loveriunent that the Province appeals to take such steps as in its wisdom arc doomod fittlii;:; or necessary, to have this important (luestion set at rest. Appf ndix, No. 6. Appendix, No. C. PAPKR delivered in by Mr. Chief Justice Draper, 28 May 1857, relative to Canadian Bouni>auiew. BOUNDARIES. On the 2.5th .Tanuary 1696-7, not loiig before the Treaty of Ry.swick (which wa.s signed on the 20th Sejitembir 1697), the Hudson Bay's Company expressed their " desire that whenever there should be a treaty of i)eace between the Crowns of England ond France, that the French may not travel or drive any trade beyond the midway betwixt Canada and Albany Fort, which we reckon to be within the bounds of our charter." The 8th Article of the Treaty of Ryswick shows that the French, at that time, set up a claim of right to Hudson's Bay!i though that claim was abandoned at the peace of Ltreclit, and was never set up afterwards. In • In llie evidence piven by the lionnunilile Wm. M'GillivrBy, on one of the North-west trials at York (nnw Toronto), in 1618, he fitated that there were no Hiidfion'n Bay traders established in the Indisn country alsiut Lake Wianipeg or the Ileil River for elglit or nine years after he had l>een used (si a partner in tlie Nortb-weat Company) to trade in that country. SELECT COMMllTEi; ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 379 iiici»f to wliich tiio (ireut Hrituin in iiic, culled hy tlie ni)>i';r. auil two, it : M'Kcn/.ii! in \\U iid.'onV Rny Cdin- I thnt when cnllvd III now Hot ii|i by till')' do:tod il' the iirovincc of J lit' wliicli nin into tliu opinioiiit III tiic Vithniit iiri'suiiiiiig un uhovu-naiucd, it l)l)H, Mr. Ik'iuriolt, .•;;ul validity of tlio in iitlicr iiuiiiutant la, there can lie iio tward to the baiikH ory granted to the ine vms declared to on'» Bnv ;" nnd the Canada lying to the oh the two geparatc being the territory to know accumtely d with 8cheinu« for riirise, are all, more Slajesty's Govern- TUc right-' of the own ; the rmvinco iw that it apiiours to liniii- of Canada peals to take fuch portant niicstion set 57, relative to k (whieh was signed id their " desire that England and France, betwixt Canada and .. that time, set up a he peace of Utrecht, la orth-west trinh at York abliahed in the Indian le had been used (ai a In 16H7, tiamci the Sucnnd il(>claroKii)ni'r8 MM. Darillon and Appodix, No> ft BourepoM, that having luaturnly considered hii* own right, and the right of hiit nulijoeti*, to ^— the whole Day and Straita of iliidson, and having lieen alao infonnetl of the n'aMonit alleged on till' i>urt of the French to jiin»,ify tlieir late proceedingM in aeizing these forts (I«urt NclsMii and Fort Charles), which for many ycarH jmst liave been |MWHCssed by tlie Kngli«h, gud in loniinittini; several other oct/i of hostility, to the very great dannage of the Knglish Coni|iaiiy of Hiiilsdn'ii Hay, hie Majesty, uikmi the whole matter, did consider the suid Company well fiiunded in their demiuuU, anJ, therefore, did insist upon his own right, and the right of his stibjcots, to the whole Day and •Straits of Iludion, and to the sole trade thereof. " The grants of the French king signify nothing to another prince his right, and thcv may nuuic what they will in their grants jilaccs, known or unknown, but niibiKlv is so weak , M to tliiiiK that anything passeth by those grants but what the king is rightfully and truly IsNtscH^i'd of or eiititleil to, for, nemo ilat ijuoil nun hubrt, is a maxim understood of all ; lilt whereas the French would have no bounds to Canada to the northward, nor, indeed, to any part^t of their dominions in the world if they could." — Extract from the Reply of the Hudson's Hay (Jonijiany to the French Answer left with the English Cominissiuners, 5th June 1690, under Treaty of Kyswick. In 1(W7 thorn were discuasion.'j between the English and French, resjiecting the right to the bay and atraitii, in which it was, among other things, submitted on the tiart of the Hudson's llay Coiniiany as follows : — " It shall not be the fault of the Company of Hudson's liiiv, if their agents and those of the Com|>any of Canaila do not keep within their respective bounds, the one pretending only to the trade of the bay and straits above- mentioned, whilst the other keens to that of Canada; and that the forts, habitations, facto- ries, and establishnients of the English Comi>any be restored, and their limits made good, as the first discoverers, jmsaessors, and traders thither." The Coin|«ny having already waived the establishments of a right to Hudson's Bay and Straits " from the mere grant and concessions of the king, which, indeed, caimot operate to the prejudice of others that have the right of discovery and continued ]iosses8ion on their side, it is again a\crred that his Majesty's subjects only are possessed of such a right to the c French Uivor." Thiit a line IxMJruwr ruwn friini ('n|>e Prrdrix to the (irrat Luke ,Mii*tn«Hin^, dividinu; thi> xiinio into Iwn |iartii, Ih'nuik] whii-h line tlic French wrrn not to |hiiiii to tlio north, nor tli<> Hnftliuli to thr South. In Au^iiHt 1711, thi-y rcni-wcd thrir n|i|)licHtion fur th<>i>4'Mh'nu'nl ol'thi; Iiniili4, mlijinir to their former ))ro|H»>iti* nortli latitude, und thut huoIi latitude be the limit, uiid that thu F'rench do not cumo to the north, or the Kn^liHli to the wiuth of thin houndary. In Auinii't 1T1!>, in a nienmrial, they nay, that " the currcnder of the HtraitMund hay atiirc- mid hiui lieen made aeeordin}; to thu teimr of the treaty, at leant in hui'Ii manner that the Cinii- pany mM|uieHeed therein, and liavo nothing; to ohjeet (M- denirc further on that head." Hut tlu'v e>cn then, eomplaiied that, ninee thu eone.luHlon of thu peace, vi/.., in ITl.'J, the Vi nch ha(l made a nettlementn at the head of Alhany River, " u|)on which very river our priiicipul factory in settled, wherehy they intercept the Indian trade from comini; to the L'oni|i;i'iy'n faetiirieH; oml will, in time, utterly ruin the tnule, if not iireventrd. It in, thereinre, 1iro|iiMied and deoired, that a houndary or dividend line may lie drawn no aa to cxelmlu tlio j'rench from coniin^r anv where to the northward of thi' l.ititiide of 4!)*, except on the eoimt of Lalirador ; unlcnn thin in done, the Coniliany'n factorien at the liottom of Iludnon'n Huy ronnot he necure, or their (nide prenerved.' Thin nhow^ that the Company there noii;r|it tn entiihlinh an arbitrary houndary, and that the olijcct of it wiw, to necure tins fur trade I'miu ^he French. The Enjflinh Comminnionern made the demand to have limitn enlalilinhed ivccordiii;; to thn prayer of the lludnon'rt Hay Company, and for the K'vin;^ up tlu! now fort erected liv the French; lidding; a demand that the Ircneh nhould make no entablinliinentn un any oi' tho riveitt which dincharneil theninelven into Iludnon'n Hay ; and that the entire courne of tlio navif;ation of these rivern nhould be left free to the Comjiany, and to nuch of the Indian-* m denired to trade with them. The preeine teriiiH of the inntruetionn to the Conmiinnionerri hardly hccm to have eon- tcniplated ihe latter jmrt of the demand, for they (the inntruction't ot .3d September 1719) merely tlenijinate the boundaries,, beyond which the French and Kn^flinh rcMieetively n," mt to eronn, They contain this ]iannane however : " Hut vou are to take espueiul care in wnnl- in;f »ueh articlen an uliidl be agreed up\\c infonuiition rcupoctinn tlio climutc, noil, iiml prcKliii'tloiin of tlii^ ciiIkm; , I liikf up iiiv pen with niiich plpiiHuro to comply with lii'* ri-rpn'Mf, miil at tlic hiuiic tiiiir to •^rutil'v vour lainliihle doxim of ((uiiiinj; hkiuc knowiiMliri' of fliiit pliu'c, wliicli liii.-i hitlicito ln'cii liidili'ii ii» with priiiicvid ilnrknoHK from tho eye of the civilincd worll the ■ ''ti ' ''vtcti: the western sonn'c \* Luke Tnivcrii: to the ciist of it \* Otter Tail i.iikc, which 1 ihe princi|)al source \u wntcri», on W\\\>i diMchivrj^cd h"oni tin; hike, How i'or -ionio dii i;onsist of oak, iln:. ash. bass or white wood, maple, birch, Scotch firs, jiine, cedar, tiunar.ic, spruce, ami po|ilar. Our soil is cxti-cmely fertile, and, when well cultivated, yields large crops of the finest wheat, weighing Innu 64 ilis. to 70 lbs. per imperial bushel. The yield per acre is often as high as 00 bushels, and has occasionally been known to exceed that; and, when the average returns fall below 40 bushels to the acre, wo aro ready to complain of small ret uii-i. Some |i:itehes have been known to produce 20 successive crops of wheat, and that » itlmut fallow or manure ; but in general we exact no more than four or five successive crops of wheat: then we put in one of barley, and then fallow for one year. These successive crops do not exhaust the soil ; but weeds overcome all our efforts to keep thein down, :i 1 therefore we arc obliged to have recourse to the plough to destroy tlicm. Harley grow - well licrc if the ground be not too rich, oi" the season too wot, when it throws up too much straw, lies down, and docs not meat. Rarley weighs from 48 lbs. to .55 lbs. per imperial bushel. Oats thrive well, and give good returns. Maize, potatoes, 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 H 3 beet-root. 'ti k ; 1!*': ' y\ :'l' 383 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE .li' i\ppcndix, No. 7. buct-roct, oiiimis, ciirrots niul turni;>», ore cultivated, an he [jeculiarly adapted for or fivonralile to sheep. There are 2n years since their introduction into this settlement, and I have never seen nor heard (if any sickness attacking them. Whcr. well fed, ewes produce Heec s weighing from 21h,<. to 3^ Ihs. ; wethers prmince fleeces nnieh heavier; the wool is of good tjuality, tlwugh not very tine. Next, we shall take notice of our population. Wv shall, lor distinction's sake, take rppcr Fort (iarry to lie the centre of the colony. Tiie Canadians and their ofVsiiriiii' occu|iy on each side ol the Red Kiver a dislancc of \'i or 20 miles aliove I'pper Fort Garrv, and also on the Assiniiioine River ; thev compose one-half of our pojiulation, which amounts altogether to fi.300 or 0,400, which will make the Canadian part of our people a trifle aliove 3,000. The other half are Europeans and their descendants, with from 400 to 500 Christian Indians inhabiting the lower part of the settlement. The value of property in the settlement, that is, of houses, barns, stables, stores, agricul- tnral implements, boats, canoes, water-mills, windmilks, thrashing-mills, liorn cattle, and shceji, has been estimated last May at 111,000/. We have not considered the Assiniiioine as a branch of the Red River, as it joins it within 50 miles of Lake Winnijieg ; yet it is more interesting to the pcofile of this j)lace than any of the sources wliieh I have mentioned, a.« it is altogethjT within the limits of Uiitish North America. One of its affluents, the Mouse River, tjikcs its rise near the great bend of the ^lissouri, and falls into the Assini- boine, about 200 miles above its junction with the Red River. This river is well wooded on both sides, and it is re|>orted that coal is found along its banks, and in the banks of many of its tributaries, at the distance of 200 or 300 miles from here, spots where civiliza- tion is beginning to take root. ]]ij;hty miles above Fort (iarry, on tli(! Assinilwine, at Portage du Prairie, there is a sct- tlcMicut of half-breeds, about 12(1 s(nils, not included in our census. On Lake St. Martin there arc a few half-breeds and Indians ; at Hossville, below I^iake Winnipeg, a few Christian Indians; and at Holy Lake, a few Christian Indians. Both these latter stations are Wcslcyan. They have one station on the Sascatchewan, and one on the Red DcH'r'a Lake. The Episcopalians have a station on the Sascatchewan, and one at Lake la Rouge. The Catholics have several stations to the north, but I think they are not locating the Indians; l)Ut on the Sascwtchewan they have a settlement of Canadians and half-breeds. I5y this you will see that tl'.e seeds of civiiisiition are taking root, although the sprouts are lint fechie and sickly. A few Canadians and Canadian half-breeds, dissatisfied with the state of things in Red River, went across the line, and settled at Pembina, and I fear others will follow their exam])le when the Indian claim shall have been done away with, and when towns arc built 1 n the UpjicrRcd River. This colony was c(mnuenced by the late Thomas, Earl (if Selkirk, in 1)S12. 1 cannot give you the nundier of immigrants brought to the Colony; 1H13 brought an addition to the first band; 1H15 saw a few more leave the bleak hills of Sutherland, and arrive cm the fertile jilains of the far west. 'I'hese were the last band from Scotland. The Xortb-wcst Company had an evil eye at the introduction of a civilized comnumity into the heart of the Indian country and doubly so because it was planted directly across their path, and on the very ]ilains from which they drew their sujiplies of provisions in the shape (t' ]ienuiii('an for their voyages from Fort William to the north, and back again. This |i(ilitic and keen-sighted comjiany argued that the colony woidd d(>troy the fur trade, and they were determined to use all their power to destroy the colony. With this intention, they took many of the scltlirs to Canada, chiefly those who came here in 1812-13. Thnue who sur\ive of the residue left, and their descendants, amount nearly to 501) souls, llie rest if cur population are chiefly, on one side, descended from the aborigines. Winn the settlement was conimeneeil, land was sold at 5 .v. sterling jier acre ; in 1S29 the jiricc was raised to 7.«- d. •ticle wlii x. fi d. per bushel ; and if he had been susi)ectcd of infringing any of the Com- pany's i)rivileges, there was no nuirket for him Four bushels of wheat was taken each year, in those days, from a buttsilo hunter, and the same ([uantity from a tri|> man. The clergy would not take the beef at l^rf. per lb.; they gave '2d. i)er lb., and otliers followed their example. These few years past the Company has taken larger (juantities, ex. gr. Inst year 30 bushels were taken from all who chose to give so much ; and if any indi- vidual giving in wheat was in arrears for land, onc-fifih the (piantity given in by him was taken for land, and ho wiv» paid over the value of Jths. The price of goods sold :it the Company's stores in the settlement varies from 100 to 400 per cent, on prime cost. We pay 4 per cent, import duty on all goods imported into the settlement. This money is exixjmled in paying the police, in making and repairing bridges and roads in the settlement. We keep up a gaol, pay a gaoler and a governor of the gaol, and a functionary called secre- tary to the governor, or governor's secretary. We have a governor and council, which are all n(miinatcd by the Hudson's Hay Company ; for by the charter they say we have nothing to s.ay. Up to 1849 the governor and council ruled with a hard and heavy hand ; but that year they received a lesson from an armed multitude, which taught them that there were other things more potent than the charter, and ever since they have been as harmless as doves. I cannot form a correct estimate of our trade with Minnesota. I believe that 300 carts went in .Jane, and I think we may value the loads of these carts on their return at an average of from 2.5 /. to 30/. sterling. We may admit that one-ninth of this amount is paid for by cattle taken over ; the remaining eight-ninths arc i)aid for in furs and bills of exchange. During the whole summer some of our people arc on the road taking cattle from here, and bringing goods in return. A few Americans arc this winter selling goods and buying peltries in tnis settlement. If Canada does not jin.sli forward, and preoccupy the ground, the Americans will. Many of our young men go for emjdoyment to Minnesota, and pass the winter in the prairies ; they are much esteemed as dextrous axe-men, and able industrious servants. In the g])ring these generally return with the fruit of their labour in goods, and sjieak highly of Yankee kindness. This intercourse creates a strong American tendency in the minds of our young people, which, unless diverted, will lead to a more inti- mate and extensive intercourse. The Country to west of Ked Kiver. — On looking on the map of North America, you will see that Lakes ^Iiuiitoba and AVinnipegoos, or Little Winnipeg, run on the west of and parallel to Lake Winnipeg. To the west of the twr) former the country is wonderfully adapted for the abode of civilised man. For a breadth of 100 miles the country is covered with a dense growth of timber, intersected by numbers of beautiful streams running down from the Kiding and Duck Moiuitains, some to thc^ lakes, others to the south, fiLlling into tlie Assiniboine Iliver. The lakes are full of various kinds of fish of the very best quality ; the plains to the south feed large herds of red deer and buftiilo; the fur-bearing animals are also plentiful in this district. These mountains, it is well known, contiiin much iron-ore, and likely more precious minerals ; some of the richest brine springs in the world are in this locality. In a dry season 24 gallons of brine produce one bushel of good salt, or 33 ', per cent. These salt-springs are to be met with south of the 49" parallel ; then at Swan Kiver district again, about 50 or 60 miles to the south of Cumberland House, and thence to the great salines on the Athbusca Kiver. Wheat ripens well on Swan River ; on the Sascat- chewan, at Isle u la Cross, in lat. 54"; at Dunvigan.on Peace Kiver. 56" X., long. 117" 45', altitude 778 feet, and even at Fort Liard, in lat. 60" 5 X., long. 122" 31 W. My desire to communicate information has induced me to be, I fear, unjjardonably tedious. My want of time has compelled me to send my observations badly arranged and as badly written. I must, therefore, conclude by asking your forgiveness and promise of amendment, if ever I shall have the honour of writing to you again. I subjoin an abstract of the census of the colony taken last May. I am, &c. (signed) Donald Gunn, sen. Appendix, No. 7. *:! ri'i li 'I I- J. . ■:f;|: ill m m\ the colony, must pay re ; and if he cannot pay 0.24— Sess. 2. 3B4 Population I ' ^. Appendix, No. <], i I 384 PoruLATiox : Married men Unmarried men - Married women - Unmarried women Sons above 16 Sons under 16 Daughters above 15 Daughters under 15 Total of ninlcs Total of females - Total - Increase since 1849 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 986 237 992 298 521 1,481 451 1,557 3,225 3,298 6,522 1,232 DWKLLINOS : Houses Stables - Barns Live Stock : Horses Mares Oxen UuUs Cows Calves Pigs Sheep 922 1,232 399 1,503 1,296 2,726 290 3,593 2,644 4,674 2,429 585 ])1ough!>, 730 harrows, 2,145 earts, 522 canoes, 55 boats, 8,371 acres of cultivated land 16 windmills, 9 water-mills, 8 thrashing machines, 2 reaper!^, 6 winnowing machines. Estimated value of property in the settlement, 111,032/. 9 «. Twelve or 14 reaping machines introduced from Minnesota ; also a grist saw-mill in successful operation since December last ; it is calculated to saw logs, oa well as grind flour. m mwK ■■! , |i'^ •J i On the progress of the Seasons and state of the Weather at Red River Colony, from June 1, 1855, to May 31, 1856. 1855. Jane 5th was the coldest day in the month: ther. 7 a.m., 58; 2 I'.M., 63; 9 p.m., 56 The 14th was the hottest day : ther. 7 A.M., 72; 2 p.m., 88; »p.M.,71. Three in. rainfell on the 17th, 1 on the 19th, and 6 in. on the 25th. Juli/ 2d was the coldest: ther. 7 a.m., 56; 2 p.m., 78 ; 9 p.m., 68; light rain. The 25th was the hottest day : 7 a.m., 87 ; 2 p.m., 92 ; 9 p.m., 82. 7th, rain 3g in. 10th, ruin } in. Thunderstorm on the 17th; rain 3 in.; 26th, 1 in. rain.; 29th, 3 in. rain; 30th, 2 in.: total, 14jj in. Wheat out of the ear ; on the 12th hay cutting commenced. Tabanii and moschetoes very numerous and troublesome. .^K(7eM/.— Coldest day, 29th: ther. 7 A.M., 44 ; 2 p.m., 68 ; 9 p.m., 56. The hottest day was tha 5th : 7 a.m., 67 ; 2 p.m., 86 ; 9 p.m., 76. On the 8th, 5 in. of rain fell ; 11th, 5^ in. fell; 14th 2 in. ; 27th | in. : total, 12i in. Barley harvest commenced about the lat: wheat harvest on the 15th. Slight fi-ost on the 30th. Septemher. — The coldest day was the 30th : ther. average + 48. The hottest day was the 5th : ther. 7 a. m., 70 ; 2 p. m., 81 ; 9 p. si., 70. Total of rain during the month 6J in. Finished shearing. "Wheat on the 8tl» ; a few leaves falling. 26th, grey geese flying to the south. October.—lho warmest day was the Ist: ther. 7 a.m., 56; 2 p.m., 70; 9 p.m., 58. Some snow fell on the 4th. Taking up potatoes on the 8th. White geese flying to the Bouth, and continued to do so uj) to the 20th, and a few flocks later than that. All tiic larger kind of ducks leave about the same time. The deciduous trees are bare of leaves, except the oak, and some of the hardier kinds. November.— The 2d was the wannest day: ther. 7 a.m., 32; 2 P.M., 38; 9 p.m., 36. 2^ in. rain fell on the 3d. 5 inches of snow fell on the 11th. 12th, river covered over with ice. The coldest day of the month was the 21st : ther. 7 a.m. — 12 ; 2 p.m. + 8 ; 9 p.m. + 6. Warm weather from the 21st to the end of the month. 7 in. of snow fell during the month. Flocks of snow-birds liave made their api)earancc from the north ; and all tlic summer birds arc gone. December.— The warmest day was the 6th : ther. 7 A.M. + 22 ; 2 p.m. + 26 ; 9 p.m. + 30. The coldest day was the 24th : ther. 7 A. M. — 48 ; 2 P. M. — 30 ; 9 i'. Ji. — 40. We had 6 doys of very cold weather, including the 2.'td and 28th. The wind blew from the north (luring three days before the severe cold began; during its continuance there was very little wind, and for two of the coldest days it was at the south. 8 in snow fell. 1856. ,} am/art/.— The warmest day was the 17th: 7 a.m. + 10; 2 p.m. + 22; 9 I'.Jt. + 16. The coldest was the 7th : ther. 7 a.m. —.30 ; 2 p.m. — 28 ; 9p.m. — 30. 5 inches of snow fell. The average cold for this month has not been great; very little wind. Ff'ArMory.— Coldest day, the 2d : ther. 7 A. M. — 36 ; 2 P. M. — 20 ; 9 p.m. — 34. The warmest day was the 20th : 7 a.m. + 20 ; 2 p. .M. + 35 ; 9 P.M. + 24. 6 inches of snow fell. After the 12th, spirit of wine in the glass stowl, with few exceptions, above zero; and the weather has been pleasant. March.— SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 385 ver Colony, from March. — The coldest day was the 8th: 7 a.m. — 32; 2 p.m. — 24; 9 p.m. — 26. The warmest day waa the 22d: ther. 7 a.m. + 28 ; 2 p.m. 4 38 ; 9 p.m. +34. The thermometer fell during the nights a few degrees below zero ; but on the whole, the weather was plea- sant ; 6 i in. of snow fell ; much of the snow melted during the month. Barking crows mode their appearance about the 20tli. April. — Geeac made their appearance on the 2d, and the snow birds left us for the north. The 12th was the coldest day this month: ther. 7a.m. + 16; 2p.m. + 30; 9p.bi. + 24: warmest day 2.Sd; 7 A.M.+46; 2 P.31. + 66; 9 p.m. +44; about 6 in. of snow and 5 of rain fell. On the 16th the river began to throw off its winter coat; clear of ice on the 20th ; sturgeon taken in the river in great numbers ; the snow all away. Wild fowl to be seen in every direction on the 29th, antl sowing wheat commenced. JWrty.— The coldest day 11th: 7A.M. + 34; 2 p.m. +43; 9 p.m. + 39. The warmest day was the 18th: 7 a.m. + 7o ; 2 P.M. +84 ; 9 P.M. + 36 ; 4 in. of rain fell on the 26th. On the 4th, Whip-poor-will began hi.'^ serenades. The wheat sown on the 29th has germinated, and given a green apiiearance to the field ; on the 9th wild flowers abundant in the plains ; maiile in leaf; gooseberry biislics the same ; finished sowing wheat on the 10th. 1H56. — Wheat sown in the beginning of May was above the ear on the 13th July, and riiic on tlic 2()th August : tlio wheat sown on the 29th April was ripe on the 14th August The hottest day this last summer was the 20th of July. Barley harvest commenced in July ; finished cutting wheat on the 28tli August : slight frost on the 30th of the same month. Potatoes taken up first week of October. September 6th, flocks of grey geese flying to the south. Primus Americana ripe and very plentiful in the first part of this month, or nither before this month. Flocks of pas- senger pigeons are in from the North, and leave from the 20th to the last of the month. On the night of the 7th, Whip-iwor-will gave us his parting song. Corrigonus lucidus enter the river to spawn ; the Corrigonus albits in Lake Winnipeg commence spawning about the 10th of October, and end about the first of November. Appendix, No. 7. :P M Wind CouMCs. •n •3 August. September. October. i a V s 2 a 1 r s "1 £ 1 1 ■< i 1 North - 7 c 8 5 C 3 8 9 2 5 8 3 70 North-eart - .'» - 1 - - 2 1 - - - 2 2 13 Ea»t - • - 1 3 1 - 2 - .- - 1 . 8 South-eut - - I .'i 3 3 I - - - 3 4 I 21 South - 5 u 5 U 10 11 10 10 6 lU 10 .5 107 South-weat - 3 3 7 2 2 4 2 7 3 2 3 4 42 Wert - 6 5 4 6 2 3 3 3 6 3 - 2 43 North-west - 2 2 1 3 1 — 2 9 7 2 1 30 June 1, calm day ; one day wind variable ; four days variable in October; December one calm day, and four variable ; Febniary variable during three days ; March one calm day. The first 13 days of May were not registered. (signed) D, Gunn. 4' ,1 Ih I' Appendix, No. 8. k!i' CoMMiTTKE-iiOOM, 8 June 1857. Hon. ISIr. Robinson. Hon. Mr. Cauchon. Present : Hon. Mr. Terrill, Ciiairman. Hon. Mr. Solicitor-General Smith. Hon, Mr. Brown. TnK Sei.ixt Committkio appointed to receive and collect Evidence and Information as to the Rights of tiie Hudson's Bay Company under their Charter, the Renewal of the Li(;en8c of Occupation, the Character of the Soil and Climate of the Territory, and its Fitness for Settlement,— Have the honour to present their First Report, as follows : YoL'U Committee beg leave to infonii ymu" Honourable House that they have examined throe witnesses, ^lessrs. Ghuhnan, Dawson, and M'Donell, upon the matter referred to tlieni for invc^stigation, and your Committeo submit to the consideration of your Honour- able House the evidence, hereunto annexed, of these three gentlemen. The whole, nevertheless, respectfully submitted. (signed) J. Lee Terrill, Chairman. Appendix, No. 8. 0.24— Sejs. 2. 3C TitE I hi i w-% 386 . APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE .' . i Appendix, H«.8. Thk. claim whicli the Hudson's Bay Company net uj) in virtue of the charter of Charles H. — has purged my attention for some years iwst, and the invostigationg which I had the oppor- tunity of making have led to tiie loncluwion that those claims have no foundation in law or in equity ; whilst I might not be disiMised to dispute that in itself the ciiarter may be good so far as it creates a body corpornte with a conunon seal, and with jjower U> sue and to be sued; yet I con'icud that it cannot conftsr uiwn the Hudson's Bay Company those powers and privileges which they assume to exercise under it. The Sovereign, in the exercise uf the prerogative of the Crown, may ^rant a charter ; but it has always been lidd that no Sovereign can grant to any of its subjects exclusive rights and privileges without the con- sent of Parliament ; niul this cliurter having been so granted, the powers and privileges sought to be exercised under it are illegal. And this evidently was the o])iniou of the Hudson's Bay Comi)any themselves as early as 1690, viz., 20 years after the date of this charter. At that period they ]ietitioned for an Act to be passed for the confirmation of those rights* and privileges which had been sought to be granteil to them in the charter. The Act 1st of William & Mary is the Act alluded to ; it did legalise and confirm tlicm. but only t'lr the jieriod of seven years, and no longer. That Act of Parliament has never been renewed since it expired in lfi97 ; consequently the charter is left .as it originally stood, and wholly unaffected by any cunformity Act of Parliament. The very foundation for the charter is a grant of territory presumed to have been made in the year 1670. Now as Charles TI. could not grant away what the Crown of England did not jiosscss, iiuK'h less co\dd he grant away the possessions of another power ; the very words of the charter itself excludes Irom tha o]>eratiou of the grant those identical terri- tories which the Hiulson's Bay Company now claim. At the date of the charter these territories were then actually in the possession of the Crown of Fnmce, and held and occupied l)y the Company of New Fi'ance, under and by virtue of a charter granted by Louis XIII. of France, and bearing date 1G2G, being 43 years anterior to the date of the charter by Charles II. A reference to the charter alluded to will show that it defines \\w very boundary of those territories which the Hudson's Bay Conqiany now claim. A copy of the charter of Louis XIII. will be found among the Par-. liamcntary documents of Lower Canada. By the Treaty of llyswick, in 1696, the whole of Hudson's Bay was recognised as belonging to the Crown of France. In that treaty no rights nor claims are provided for, or even alluded to as regards the Hudison's Bay Coujpany ; whence it is conclusive ihal the Hudson's Bay Coni[>any cither had no legal rights, or such rights, if they existed, were abrogateroteetion of the Company of New France, whicli then held the country under the charter of Louis XIII. The charter of Charles cannot be construed to have the effect of granting any lands aci|uired only by the Crown of England under another sovereign, and long after the death of C'harlos. By the Treaty of 1763, which surrendered Canada to the British Crown, the French and Canadian people were guaranteed in their properties, and in the exercise of those rights and privileges of trade as used by them under the French dominion. They hat] for a century jirevious carried on an extensive trade with all the westcni country, particularly throughout the vallics of the Assiu'.boine and Saskatchawan. The grant of every exclusive privilege of trade bv the Crown of Great Britain over any portion of the country alluded to is a direct breach of" the articles of ca[)itulation (Article 42): " The French and Canadians shall continue to be governed according to the customs of Paris, and the laws and usages established for this co8session "tion of the Comjmny XIII. The charter nds acquired only by ath of Charles, own, the French and ise of those right* and with all the western katcliawan. roat Britain over any tulation (Article 42): ng to the customs of shall not be subject nch dominion."' cut, and which .Vets t they call their ri^ht, if Hudson's Bay, and line other could have ulc applicable to such or any other power, conformity with the of a new passage into etofore granted to the ality i>f the claim. It •y under a charter of upon the validity of be granted. Nor do Bay Company being rights of the Hudson's the said Company are charter of Charles II. The The able nu-nioranilinu furnished to the Eegislatui't! I)y the Honourable Mr. Cauehon recites historicid iiu^ts, and friiishes data to warrant the conclusion that the assumption of ]M)wer over the territory in (|i>estloii by tlic Hudson's Bay Company i» a usniiuttion. That jtoriioii of territory to which they limit their claim to an cxeluslve right of trade in virtue of a license issued to theui anw designate as the licensed territory. The principal trade of the Xorth-west (,'ompany was carried on through Canada to the shores of the Pacific; the route pursued was from Montreal ivVi the lakes, to the head of Lake Superior, and thence across the continent ; the means of transport was by canoes and batteaux ; about 5,000 men were employed in this trade. I am told by those who were partners in that Company, that the profits of the Company were very great until the Hudson's Bay Company .attempted to drive them out ot the country by means of force; the contests arising from that attempt caused serious losses to each Cmnpany, and both were nearly ruined. It was then that the Companies united, and resolved to share the country between them, by setting up the claim under the old extinct charter ; and with their united means they deterred other traders entering into a competition for the trade, and this was year by year more effectually guarded against by using every means to close up the old travelled routes, which would have pointed out the way to other traders. Sometimes independent traders would make an establishment along Lake Superior, or some of the lakes more in the interior ; these parties were driven out, and their property destroyed. Tliere was no means of redress, as there were no tribunals at which the perpetrators could be made to answer, and to travel with a canoe some 1,000 miles to institute proceedings was an efleetual bar since 1847 ; steamlioats now traverse along the coasts of Lake Huron and S\iperior, but even now with these liiciiities a man cannot obtain justice; the countries along these shores are neither within the limits of any organised territories, and outrages are euinniitted by the Hudson's Bay Ci mpany with impunity. The Hudson's Bay Company first entered into the valley of .Saskatehawan aliout 30 years after the cession ot Canada, and whilst the North-west Company had large establish- ments there. The Iludson'.-i Bay Company did not enter into the valley of the Assiniboinc until about 42 years subsequent to the cession of the country (about 180,5). Ke.-^ident tnidei-s from ^lontreal madi; establishments there as early as 1766, or about three years after the cession. The French traders must have occupied many of the same localities .edr 100 years prior to that. The Hudson's Bay Company entered into those countries from Hudson's Bay via Hay's and Xebson Rivers ; previous to this tliey had confined themselves to the shores of Hudson's Bay : they did not set up a cbiim by virtue of the charter until many years after their first entering invo these countries ; they traded like any other traders, and like the north-west Company : the North-west Company was not a chartered company, but a joint-stock association, and claiming no exclusive privileges. The lluds(m's Bay Company first set up the claim of exclusive rights, &c., in 1814; the late Colonel Miles M'Dcmell did so on behalf of the Couqiany, by issuing a proclamation as the Governor of the Assiniboine country, appointed by the Hudson's Bay Company ; the contest which ensued between the two companies originated on the assumption of exclusive rights, and not from the actual competition in trade ; the trade had always been carried on freely and without any restrictions ; the proclamation was set at defiance by the partners of the North-west Company ; among the most prominent of these were some of his own relatives. I believe there never had been any collision between the rival traders until after the a.xsumption of |)ower on the jmrt of the Hudson's Bay Company ; the legality of the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company were never subjected to the decision of a legal tribunal, unless the result of the trials of some of the partners of the North-west Company be deemed so; these purties were charged with the crime of murder, having taken the lives of tlie Hudson's Bay people who sought to enforce their claims. The companies united in 1821, and called themselves the Hudson's Bay Company. 'Ihe effect of this union was to destroy a trade which had theretofore benefited Canada, by turning it through Hudson's Bay ; the route via. the lakes was abandoned, not because 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 C 2 it Appendix, No. 8. :l;^ iii''ii {■r 'M 'I III 1 S88 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE It Appendix, No. 8, it was a more nlijeetionablc one, but because the ciintinuin)r it aa tlio route would in all — ■ probability lend to another comi>otitioTi for the trade by Canadian merchant!*. The united companies »ueceeded in closing the route to all others who might have been disjMised to eonijiete for the trade; having been closed for so many years, and no new trader being induced to enter into contest with the now jjowerful conipaiiy, the trade and the route became forgotten ; if the trade were again opened, I am c'>'.".viuceil that as active and pro- ductive a trade as formerly would at once spring into existence. The facilities which now ofter for the successful carrying it on arc as 100 to 1 as comj>ared with the former period ; for instance, it cost the North-west Company 30,000 1, to lay down their gootls at Fort William, at the head of Lake Superior; the same (piantity of nuu'chan- dise might now be laid down there for .300/. or 400/., and the route between this and Lake Winnipeg could for more than three-fourths of the way bo made facile for a steamboat. If a large trade like that which formerly was carried on should ever be revived, there is no doubt but that steamers iVould ply upon the long reaches of water which exist beyond tlic height of land. I nm convinced that within two years a trade would bo carried on along that route to the shores of the Pacific. It was so in the early history of the country, and before steam was known, and there is no reason why such a trade should not exist now ; witnesses will tell you that in 1814 and 1815 Fort William had frequently 3,000 traders assembled there; 'loronto at that perind could not number 500. Had the North-west Company not united with the Hudson's Bay Company, there is no doubt but thiit the route via Lake Sujierior would by this time have been navigable all the way to the Saskatchawan, or at least all the ix)rtage8 made facile for teams, &c., and a cliain of settlements would have been formed along the route. The |>rofits of the Hudson's Bay Company are very large. In ^Inreh 1856 it is said the trade sales amounted to near half a million ; they sold of butlido robes alone 80,000, at about 21. 10«. a-j)icce Goods from England could, via the St. Lawrence, be laid down on the shores of Hudson's Buy or Lake 'A'innipeg, before they could leave England for those jwints riil Hudson's Bay. Ships ilo uot leave England for Hudson's Bay before the month of June, and they cannot get through the straits before the end of July. There is a determination on the part ot those who are settled on what is called the Hudson's Bay Territories to engage in a trade, and set at defiance any attempt to contiiue the exclusiN e trade of the Hudson's Bay Company. Traders have gone out to the Ited liivcr country, witli the intention of trading against the Hudson's Bay Company ; they are British subjects, and some have gone from this place, and others will follow from other part;; of tlie country. Preliminary arrangements have been made in this city, with a view of reviving the old trade once carried on by Canada, and which pmi)hatically belongs to Canada. An agent was sent last winter to the Ked liiver ; upon his return here a more definitive action will be taken. The parties that have gone with goods, and those who are to follow, will go on by the United .States, via St. Paul's. From St. Paul's, they will travel by carta across the plains about 700 miles. Goods have been furnished by American houses at St. Paul's to parties at the Red Bivcr, who are to trade a» far as the Mackenzie River; that is, within the territories over which file Hudson's Bay Company claim the right of exclusive trade, in virtue of the licence held by them, and is distinct from what is called the Chartered Territory. These ])arties are generally hijlf-breeds ; as natives of the country and as British subjects, they are determined to exercise a right which no laws can restrict unless they have a M>ice in making those laws. This summer about 1 ,200 carts are expected to leave the Red River country with peltries to l)e traded at St. Paul's. The route is much longer than that to Lake Superior, and it occupies about 30 days of travel ; if that by Lake Sui)erior was imjn'oved, boats might arrive there in 15 dnys from the Red River; loaded canoes, during the time of the North-west Company, were about 12 days; a light canoe has passed from the Red River to Lake Superior in eight days; The expense to be incurred in re-opening the old route has caused parties to take tlio St. Paul's route. If the route was opened from Lake Superior, I have no doui)t but the whole trade of that country would come down Lake Superior. Had not the carts at the Red River been all prepared for the travel to St. Paul's this summer, 1 believe that many of the traders would have attempted the- Lake Superior route this month ; some packs ot furs are now on the way down via the Lake Superior route ; only one canoe-load, however, is coming ; neither boats nor canoes were biult, or, I am informed, there would be more. The value of peltries to be taken to St. Paul's by the carts will amount to about .$100,000; they will carry back merchandise in exchange and some money, I am convinced that the Indians will be vastly benefited by a competition in trade, and at the same time advance them to civilisation. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 389 ung that route to tlie unc, and they cannot w, will go on bv tiie country with jjcltiies Tho very oxintcnco of the Indian in now martn<,'es. There is another ronte leading; from the Kaniinisticpioia, and may be made a better one than that now nsed. Another route could he made from the shores of Lake Superior to Arrow Lake ; this would he the shortest of any. The I'icfeoii River roiiti" is the old ronte of the French, and also of the North-«est Company. I have a chart of the routes, and with all the jiorta^jes laid down, and the measnreiiient n"roPs each portage in yards, (iraiiil l'ortaj;e, which is frnm liake Superior to Pii'enn Kiver. is within the Uniteil States boundaries; but the dividing; line ia thron;j;h the middle cf I'i^eoii Kiver. I think that we hare a better roe.ie than that li.-'n tile mouth of I'igeon River; I have the measured distances across the portages hy other routes. Steandiuats could run u[)(in several of the Ion;; reaches; and were it not for sonic short spaces, the whole distance to the west side of the Lake of the \Vi>ods alinO''t in'^lit be rendered navigable f Itoth from l'>astnniin and from .Moo.sc Factory ; the voyage througii the straits and bay was at that time considered doubtful and hazardous ; ships, however, have only wintered in the bay once since then. Charlton Island was a depot station of the North-west Company Ol' Montreal .ibout the year 1808 ; they had another station ion liears date I returned from vieo in the northern from 1814 t() 1836. t f^radc of officiu's in tlic! !VI(K)9p Faetnry 1 both departments; Uiiif? into had health viiij^ a now eomniis- here I have a small icd in rej^ard tn the he Comj)any, 1814; every (le^eri])tinn of eel Imiiil-mill: had that time, 1814 ; 1 eattle kept there ; ement liein;; made en Moose Faetorv ) 28 feet keel, tiiiin supplied with }joods rmomuter observed 3 Ray ; climate not turnips, and other lortli-wcst winds oil ipply of hay ooinj; 111 the point of the pt as a re>oiur" in :e\ cral years during in 1R15-Ifi; again urth time in 181!;!: Moose until late in lart of the bay, and liere sui)plics euiild liu'uished with pro- )iigli the straits and have only wintered orth-west Company aland, nearly oppo- l reiniuieriitive, and 4 ; the lowest tcm- 'lulc reckoned incomiiatihlc Wiw SKLKCT COMMITTEE OX THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 391 \Vn8 lit l)i^ lliver, north uf Etwtmuin, in 18 18; did not winter there; Hoil Handy and Appeudix, No. 8. light ; eliunitc similar t4) that of EaHtmain ; potatot^H and otiier vGj;;ctabU>H j^rown t'here not- - withBtnnding ; was nl.no at IlupertV Ilinise, where the Hoil in much better, and the station more sheltered than either Earitniain or IJig liiver ; more favourable for garden eidtivatlon ; the cultivated groumls at all the (Joinpany'« poHtH are of snnill extent ; none that I saw would be ealliMl a " fami" in ('anoda; tarming and fur tra( purKuits by the Company's mauaginf; ottieers. Have been at Ilainiah Bay, a small jH)st at the extremity of Jamo!* Bay, nuiintaincd chierty for the |iiu')>ose of procuring wdd fowl f(n* the Hubsistence of the depot estnblishuient of servants ; wdd i'owl are generally very abundant on the shores of Hudson's Bay. Kesided at Moos(! Factory 1.) years; it is thechief dei)(")tof the Company in the " southern department"; nuudi sheltered from northerly winds; climate and soil good; raised potatoes and other vegetables there in great al)undan(;e ; barley ripened well ; small fruits, as currants, goos(d)erries, strawberries, and ranjiberries plentiful, grow wild ; never knew wheat tried, till! season being too short; horned cattle, horses, sheep, and pigs kept there; all housed in winter ; the goods from London are there landed, and the furs shipped. Have been alsi at Albany, but did noi winter ; (dimate and soil do not (litter much from Moose, being little more than 100 miles further north ; well sheltereil also, and the (extensive marshes on the coast furnish an abundant stock of fodder for domestic ejittle. The Albany River is considered one of the best routes of eonnuunication between Hudson's Bay and the l{ed River settlement; boatj were used for conveying gooils to the interior country hmg bet'ore the junctimi of the Hudson's Bay and North-west Companies in 1821; the most western post of the .Mbany district of ancient days was Brandon House, on the River Assiniboin(! ; the soil around the posts of Henley. Martin's Fulls, Osnaburg, and Lac Seul, is of a (|uality that enables the servants of the Company to raise fair crops of potatoes; in point (if latitude these posts are very little north of Red liiver. Was in England in 1834-.'!5, and on my return to Canada was ordered into the northern department of the Company's trading territories, Ciuuberland House being appointed as my wintering stati(m in 1835; excellent wheat grown at Cumberland, which was ground by ua Ayith a steel hand-mill ; made flour of first (|uality ; other vegetable produce raised there with complete success; soil chiefly on limestone, and the climate f'lvoura'ile for garden stuff's of every sort ; the Company's horses were not housed at all during the winter, and throve very well in the reedy swamps near to the st4ition ; this is considered, in fact, one of the choice posts cf the northern country. Was stationed at Vork factory from 18.36 to 1841 : the soil around not adapted to (•ultivati(^n, being for the most part ntossy swam[is; saw a crop of turnips raised there in a small garden only once, failed in other years from frenuent blights and night-frosts during the summer months; ice remains (m the coast through July ; jnts were (lug there with a view of ascertaining the depth of ground thawed durmg summer ; repeated digging showed only about three leet of thawed ground, whilst the perpetually fro/en gi-ound was found to he about 15 feet. This depot is the njost imiKirtant ]iost of the Company on Hudson's Bay, bt'ing the centre of im]N)rts and exports of the whole northern department ; Indians arc employed in transporting goods, are very expert voyageurs, and engage readily in any duties required of them by the Company's officers; they are paid chiefly in clothing .and other goods essential to them for making a winter hunt ot furs ; many of them died in 183G from influenza. Was at the Company's post at Red River for a few months in 1841 ; wheat may be raised at the settlement in almost any (juantity ; hitherto the want of a market for their products has cramped the energies of the settlers; the (juantity of Hour and other produce required by the Company is so small th.at it can readily be furnishe(l by three or four farmers; an extract from the census of 1856 shows that the number of birses then at the settlement was about 2,800; l-.omed cattle, 9,300; pigs, 4,700; sheep, 2,401) ; estimated value of live stock, 52,000/. sterling. The pojmlation of the settlement, including Indians, is alxmt 10,0(K). A large stock of wheat and Hour is generally kept on hand by the Com()any, to ginird against want, arising from failure of crops, whether caused by spring freshets, summer droughts, insects, or other casualties. Supplies of goods for the settle- ment are sometimes trans|K)rtcd from York Factory in the autunni, after arrival of the Com|)any's ship from England ; the greater part is usually t :?nt up in the eiudy diws of summer ; settlers have begun to find it more advantageous to sell their furs and carry on their commercial dealings at St, Paul's, Minnesota; they have the choice there of a greater variety of goods, and obtain farming implements which are not yet niaiMifiiettu'cd in the settlement, or imported by the Company. A considerable portion of British trade is thus becoming lost both to England and Canada; is yearly increasing, and will continue to increase in amount. A well sui)plied depot or store established at tiie •' Lake of the Woods," which is only about 100 miles from the Comj)any"s post at Fort ( iarry, might probably divert a considerable portion of the trade from the American course it is now taking. It may also be desirable to counteract jis luuch as possibh; every tendency towards a leaning or dependence on our neighbours for 8U])plying the wants of the colonists. Troops being stationed at Red Rivt-r, it becomes important that a regular chain of commu- nication with them should be immediately and permanently established, and depots of military stores formed. Hudson's Bay and Straits being closed by barriers of ice, and (Wmmunications by that sea route only practicable at one particular season of the year, it is, I conceive, very important indeed that provision should be made for every contingency that 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 c 4 may i. i iiii Iff m 39« APPENDIX TO REPOIIT FROM THE Aii|>cn(lix, No. 8. i>'ny Jirobnlily nri*f. If it kIiduIiI lio toiiml (Icoirulilc to Hrnd i» rc-liil'orccmcnt of troojw to — _ the Hctth'iiu'iit at It Itttc iicriod of tin? yoiir, (tiiy Sc'|>teinlM>r, or to ht-nil additiuiml etorcti of any kind, it u I'lciirly " iinpriirticabic " for ii Hocoiid vcuwol to iiinko tlic yoynue \>y tiic utmitK at tliut MOUHoii. On the otlicr hand, in ordinary years the ronte between Late Superiornnd the Red Kivor HcttU-nient, by way of Ituinv Lake, in open (birinj; the month of October ; it ceemH to nie, tlicrefore, ahnoiorixibh! delay; n>y opinion ix, and I think I cihall be ttuxtained in thin opinion by older inenibern of the North-west Company, that boats may be used (in what is now the eanoe track of the Iludiion'rt Biiv Company) I'm- trans|H)rtin}; iiulky or licavy packages from Luke Superior to Hainy Lake. Thence to Lake AV'inniiH'g luuits arc nscd, and have been n^ed by the Hudson's Hay Coni[>any for many years back, in the transport of their friMxIs and turs to and i'ro. The whole Icnj^th of thin eanoe track, iiidudinjr lakes, rivers, anosilioiis, and i cumin r.» the cimin of waters where rcquircil, At an aftcr-j)eriod, when the portaii;c roads are com])lefed, tramways uiay be laid down, and trucks used for the C(mvcyance of heavv stores and biifjgage. Improved jiortagc roads and river luiviyaticui would also enable settfei-s from Canada to locate themselves on the borders of the Kamlnistiquoia and Ifniny Rivers, or other suitable jdaccs, of which we have such glowiuff accounts by travellers wlm have ])afscd through that interesting country. There arc several considerable lakes on that line of rcmte, and there arc many parts of the rivers without rapids or jMirtages, so that the land carriage would not be very great. The ofHecrs of the Company jiass through the country so rnpidlj', they have little or no opjcnunity for nuiking observations as to the (juality of soil, or its fitness for agricultural purpc-es and settlement ; nor do they take much note of distances from point to point. Ti.t Red River section, the Swan River, the Saskatchewan, the Assiniboinc, and the la.ids west of the Lake of the W'of j;, and the whole route has been much improved iiini-e IA21 ; from Moose Factory (o Lake Superior, the water comniunicBttuim have been improved in a similar manner The Indians would, in my opinion, be bencKted by a free open trade, provided siiirittiouA liquors could bo excluded ; provisions, clothing, and other articles, which are to tlieni the DfcessHiies of life, they would be able lo obtain with greater I'ucility, and in more ubuiidunce than they now du ; the chances of nufl'erini; and privation, from not liavint; u(le(|uate supplies, would be lessened ; and, no longer obliged to roiim over the country in sciircb of ii livelihood, families would congregate together, become tillers of land, and their condition be thus greatly improved. There is a fixed taritf for sales of goods to the Company's servants, in all parts of the country ISO per cent, on prime cost ; comniisMioncd ottuers pay 33 j\ per cent., which is allowed to cover freieht and cliurues to the depots; there is no fixed or regular tariff for dealings with the Indianit ; the custom of the post regulates prices, both for goods und furs. When I was in the service, the Indian tariff' prices, or custom prices, had not been changed at some of the districts for many years ; goods are dearer at the distant posts, und prices vary at each, more or less; great latitude in this respect is allowed to othcers in charge of districts ; the success of the trade and welfare of ihe Indians depend chiefly, almost entirely, on their judgment and management, not on the Directors in London or on the Governor of Rupert's Land ; gerieral arrangements for conducting the trade are made by the councils of officers held once a year in the country. The Governor presides ; councils deteriiiine the outfits of goods ; number of men to be employed; staiions to be occupied; boats to be sent in or out ; minor details left to the discretion of the officers appointed to the charge of distiicts and posts; officers amenable tu the council; each officer nmkes an order for the goods he considers needful for the trade of his disirict, restricted according to the number of boats ordered ; supplies are sometimes insufficient for the wants of the Indians ; they do not unfrequently suffer from this cause. Orders for goods sometimes curluiled and diminished by the officer in charge of the depot ; sometimes in England by the (jovernor ; depot officer responsible to council in such case; the treatment of the Indians, whether humane, or otherwise, depends entirely on the officers in charge of posts ; his liberality iroverned by his outfit. A general order was made in 1821, that the Indians be treated with kindness and humanity ; that order has never been rescinded ; gunpowder, shot, and ball, fiahing twines, blankets, cloths und axes, arc the chief necessaries ; without these the Indians may perish. In all parts of the country whi-re I have been, the Indians were peaceable and inoffensive; troublesome wlicii intoxicated, sometimes dangerous ; they have becii reduced in number by diseases, us small-pox, iiiflueiiza, hooping-cough, scarlet fever, &c. ; never knew of any hospital on the cubt side of the liocky Mountains ; the Company's posts are so few and far between, that the Indians cannot readily obtain relief or assistance in a lime of sickness; each post supplied with sucli medicines us the ofliier in charge may order; one medical man at each depot only; no schools or schoolniasteis at tiie posts, excepting Red River; none that 1 know of, from 1S14 to 1845; there may be, ^ince 1 left the service. Goods in the origiial package from Englar.d may be laid down at Lake Superior in the month of May, or by ^.he first week in June; ihe Company cannot be unaware of this fact; their goods are only leaving England at that date ; the Company's posts at Luke Nipi^inque, Lake Huron, Sault St. Marie, and Lake Superior, ure all supplied with jjoods from their depot at Moose Factory; these i;oods only arrive at iheir several destinations 15 months after irhipnient from London. Goods from Canada might be conveyed to the shores of Hudson's Bay or to Lake Winnipeg in July, or three months only after shipment; the furs traded from the Indians withi^r the same limits are collected at Mecliipicotin, and conveyed to Moose Factory, wiiere they are shipped to London, might certainly be in London iby conveying then) through Canada), in llie month of September, or date of shipment from Moose Factory; when the ships wintered in Hudson's Bay, the furs did not of course reach London until the following year. Was four years at the King's posts and seigneiiries on the St. Lawrence, in the Company's service ; the furs from tliose po>ts and from the Ottawa, were ?enl to Quebec for shipment to London ; the furs of Temiscaminquo, Abittibbi, Grand Sac, Trout Lake, Waswanopy and Mistasinny, arc all sent to Moose ; receive their supplies of goods from the same place ; the Company's private rights arc not much respected on the St. Lawrence. Have not been at the Oregon, or crossed the Hocky Mountains, neither have I been at any of the districts north or west of Cumberland House; my position at the depot enabled me to gain information, and know what was doing in those parts of the country. Potatoes were raised at the Saskatchewan, Lesser Slave Lake, English River, Athabasca, and other posts in the southern part of the Mackenzie River, although sometimes cat off by frosts. Churchill and Severn, posts on the coast of Hudson's Bay, are supplied from York 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3D Factory fi': ' :1i ■I", "i' .III 1. ; »• ' APPKNDIX TO IlKPOUT I'KOM THR Ap|>enilii, Nn. 8. Fnctury by inp«n« of boat* «ti rcph'te with vitiiiiil)!)' diitii on which to j;i(miid a re|)(]rt by ihi« (.^iminittee, that I cunnot reijrpt my own innbdity to say iinvihin(; ot importance on thu charter of ilie Conipaiiy, their leaMH, or ihcir litlcH. I perfectly au;ree with the Honourable Coininiii«ioiier, that the tiiiio liiu arrived when the nieBsnri « he liiifi sii.:^pnted KJiould be " most 'orcibly preitned upon the Inmeria'l (iovcmiiicnt ; " uiui I beg your perniiSHion to expreit my deep-leil conviction, that on the deciHion of this ('oiuniittee, and the course of action that may be taken by the (J'inadian Oovfrnnient at tlii» juncture, depend* the future weal or woe of my countrymen in the Dritiith IS'orlh-west Ponsensioii*. Mr. William MacD. Dawton, called in, and Kxaniined. I AM the bead of the Woods and Forests Drancb of the Crown Land Department, and redifle in Toronto. I have never had any difficulty or quarrel with any one connected with the Hudson's Boy t'onipany. Have you jiarticulHily studied the titleH under wliich the Hudson's Bay Company cliiim certain ri;j;lits of soil, jurisdiction, and trade on this continent ! I have made this subject a particular object of study for manv years, and have omitted no opportunity ofacquirinir iiiforniution noon it; nnil aithoii|{li with more time than 1 could devote to it, und a more extemied renuiircli, much additional inforinutum could be ol>taineH, I believe that it would only tend to fill up detail", and Htrenutheii and conlirm the results of the investigation i have already ninde. Will you state to the Committee the result of your investiu;alioii ? The result of my iiivesliL'atioii has bei'ii to demon-itrnte that in the Red Uivcr and Sas- kutchawnii countries, the Hndson's Hav ("ompany liav(! no rip;ht or title whatever, except what they have in common with other Hritish subjects. Wherever they have any possession or occupancy, then they are simply '(|ualters, the same as they are at Fort William, Lacloche, Lake Nipissing, or any of their olher po>ts in Canada. The covernmeiital attributes they claim in ihat country are a fiction, and their exercise a palpable infraction of law. I am no enemy to the Hudson's Hay Company, nor lo any individual connected with it; and I think that there are at the present dav extenuating circumstances lo justify a ;;reat decree of forbearance towards them when their position comes to be dealt with, either judicially or legislatively. Illegal as it undoubtedly is, their present pusiiion is a sort of moral necessity with them. Tile first attempt of the Company, under Lord Selkirk's regime, to assume that iiosition, was no (hrnbt a monstrous u-uipalion ; but it was defeated, Uiough not till it had caused much bloodshed. The Hudson's Bay Company and the Canadian Traders (N'orth-west Company), afterwards amalgamated ; and then, in pursuance of a policy most dexterously planned and executed, carried the trade away back into tlu' interior, from the very siiores of the lakes und rivers adjoininir the settlements of Canada, and took it round by Hudson's Bay, to keep it out of view, to lessen the chances of u new oppt)sitioii spriiijiing up. They also gave out that it v.as their country (a fiction which the licenseof exclusive trade for the Indian territories helped them lo maintain) ; and they industriously published nnd circulated maps of it as such, which, beinj.^ copied ii-.'o other maps and geographical works, the delusion became very general indeed. When therefore, l)y this means, they bad been left alone in those leniote territorie.-, with- out anv intercourse with ihe organised tribunals or le;:itimate government of the country, (an intercourse which their monetary interests forbade them to seek), it became a .sort of necessity for them to establish a jurisdiction of their own. It is true that they liavu gone to an extreme in this matter, which it would be difficult to excuse ; liiilii #E1LECT COMMIITEE ON TUli HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. :m Day Company cldim uiul their exerciBe b ('»<■«•« ; tiUt In fucli u > a»e it i* hard to takn th«' flrnt utep, nnd lie Mt> to itii|) nflrrwDnU, /\|,p«,Jix, fJc |. nixre |)tteti< iiliiily uht-n it ( iiiiMiNU in u total Hiitiiu;|jully posaria unly the ii.ihtK tif N\ibjcitK unil trailer* in t'anintoii wiili the r«>t I the cuniniiinity. '"BiiI haviun once iiatimii'd and t.>x<'rci«ed tli<)«' imwith, and iherphy made thtMiiifllveg unipnalilr to the lawn of ihe country, it i* not to he wmidereii ut that thxv have i»nu(;lit to jnitlify it on the |ireleiitT that they p'8«>iiii the power* ot j;oveininent, which (doulitlid ;il heiit even in tiioKe locidiliiN wht ir ihev have Honie show of title) nre without the least t'oundittion on the hanks oC the Suskalehi w ui or Ued Kivei*. In tliiiM pulliatiu^' llie leiiiKiiy with which the lliidion'o Bay Company cling lo their fictitious title I niiiy he ii< ni-i d of hciii); their ap^loyiMt, hut I am no only to the extniit tlint, ■t the pre»eiil day, their piilioii has hecoiiie u iiece«i«ity ; lor, in »o far ii« lliey have allucted the ri)<;nt« ol'dihers thev have tendered tlirniselv> B liulile to the most Keril'(l hci- tit to appeal to the le(;al trilinnuls of tlie country ; iind it ii» hut natural to Huppone that ihey will endeavour lo roaintain the Action Inny; enough to enable them to elTect a comproiniw Any numher of individiu s niight BMs-ociate theniHilvex to(;ether tor mining, hunting, or u^riciilture, oay at Lake NiuiHiing or on Aiiticosti ; and Hnding no l«i;al tribunuU there, or within their reiich, tliey mi>:nl eBtahliidi a jurisdiction ot their own, and execute their jud^- nieiitH. Cii'ciinixlanees may he imagined in which such a course, if resulting I'loin the neceMHity of their pimition, nii^ht he morally ri;;ht, tllou^h legally wrong; but nothing fthort of an Act of liidenmity could «avc thcui from ihu conMei|uences, if pnritued by thoHc whoie rights tliey had atfeftcd. Such is exactly the position of the Hudson's Bay Company at the Reposed than acce|)ted ; and, in denying it now, I am simply in accord with the highest authorities, whose province it has been to treat ihe question judicially. It must be remembered that the Company did nut attempt to even enter upon these coun- tries until 104 years after the date of their charter, viz., in 1774 ; and that they then did so, nut as taking possession under their charter, but oidy to participate in a trathc then in the hands of British subjects trading from Canada in virtue of the conquest or cession of the country, lhroui;li which, and not in virtue of their charter, the Company also had, of course, a right to trade as British subjects. A rivalry having been kept up for ninny years in the Iradc, and the absurd construction of the charter now contended for having been invented, the attempt to exercise the powers claimed was made by tin; Company, throu;;h Lord Selkirk, first theoretically about the years IBll-l'i, and praclioully about IBM, by warning off the North-west Company, and obslructiiig the channel of their trade; and the result was a great deal of strife and bloodshed. In the course of this strife various appeals were made to the provincial and Imiienal Governuu'iiis, and to the legal trd)unals, and m every instance the decisions were constructively or directly adverse to ihe pretensions of the Hudson's Bay Company. In a despatch lo the Covernor-general from Earl Bathurst, by order of his Hoyal High- ness the Prince Uegmt, under dale 6th February 1817, 1 find the following instructions in relation to these events : " Y iiu will also require, under similar jienalties, the res itution of all torts, buildings, or triidiug stations, with the property which they contain, which may have been seized or taken possession of by either party, to the party who originally established or constructed the same, and who were possessed of iheni previous to the recent disputes between the two Companies. " You will also require the removal of any blockade or impediment by which any party may have attempted to prevent or interrupt the free passage of traders or others of his Majesty's subjects, or the natives of the country, with their merchandise, furs, provinions, and other efl'ects, throughout the lakes, rivers, roads, and every other usual route or commu- 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 u 2 nication I • ^v;';; gr A I -ii •i: ^ 396 APf»ENDIX TO REPORT FKOM THE Appendix, No, 8. nication heretofore used for the purposes ol' tlie fur trade in the interior of North America; — — and the lull and free permission for all persons to pursue their usual and accustomed trade without hinderance or molestation." .And in conclusion, this object is again perem|)torily insisted on, viz., " the mutual resto- ration of all properly captured during these disputes, and the freedom of trade and intei- course with the Indit.ns, until the trials now pending c.in be brought to a judicial decision, and the great question at issue with respect to the rights of tlic two Companies shall be definitely settled." The trials then pending, to which the above allusiuu has reference, were those instituted by Lord Selkirk against the partners and employees of the North-west Company, who had resisted the pretensions of tlie Hudson's Bay Company, and in c.)nsequence of which a battle was fought on the Frog Plains, at the Red River, in which some 20 of the Hudson's Bay people were killed, including the " Governor," as they styled their chief officer. These trials were for murder (some of the parties as principals and some accessories) for arson, robbery (stealing cnnnon), and other high misdemeanors, and were held in this city, tlien the totvn of York, in October 1818, and resulted in the acquittal of all the parties on all the charges, though it wiis not denied that some of them had been in the h.ittle, in which, how- ever, they contended that they were in defence of their just rights. These trials were held under the Canada Jurisdiction Act (43 Geo. 3, c. 138), under a coniniission from Lower Canada; but the jurisdiction under that Act bbin>r questioned on the ground that the Frog Plains were in Upper Canada, and therefore not in the territories affected by that Act, the Court was so doubtful on the question of boundary that the charcre to the jury directed that, incase of linding the prisoners guilty, they should return a special verdict sriting forth that " they could not see lioin any evideuce before them what wore the limits of Upper Canada." The Attorney-general was unable to define these limits, but appealed to the Court to decide, as they were deducible from treatie:'. Acts of Parliament, and proi'lamations, &,c., and the judgment of the Court was as above stated, the following passage occurring in the charge of the Chief Justice : — " Air. Attorney-general has put in evidence the latitude and longitude of the Frog Plains, but he does not put in evidence whether this latitude and longitude be without or within the boundaries of U|>per Canada, and I do not know whether from 90" to 100" or ISd" from the western limit of Upper Canada." In other words, the Court could not affirm that Upper Canada had any western limit ou this side of the Pacific, and the Court was right ; its westerly limit never had been assigned, and absolute evidence of the very nature which the Attorney-general (now Chief Justice) admitted wnuld be proof upon the subject, existed so far as to prove that the province extended beyond the Lake of ihe Woods, wiihont determining how far beyond; but it was not his duty to qnote it, as he was prosecuting for a conviction as directed by a special com- mission from Lower Canada under a particular Act. An acquittal, however, rendered any special verdict unnecessary, and the question was not therefore further tried on these cases. 1 must remark, however, (hat the qnestinn raised was solely whether the scene of the outrages at Red Uivur was in Canada or the Indian territory, imt whether it was in Canada or the Hn(lsoi>'s Bay Company's territury. Tlie latter alternative was not even entertained, havmg been almost entirely ignored on the trials as too manit'estly absurd to make any legal fight upon at all. In short, the case for the defence was based on a justification of resistance to the assumed authority of the (Company, whose preposterous pretensions on the Red Uiver with '* governors, sheriffs, &c.," were treated with ridicule, though without detract'iig from the individuals, "Governor' Sempie, who w.is killed, or his predecessor, M'Donnell, who were worthy of the highest respect, though, like many others, imposed upon in the first instance by the specious pretences of the ('onnpany and Lord Selkirk. Other actions and trials were held in Upper Canada, all of which, so far as I have been able to trace them, were adverse to the Hudson's Bay Company. Ill February 1819, in this ciiy, William Smith, undcr-sherilT of the then Western District, obtained ."iOO/. damages against Lord Selkirk, th-en at the head of a large armed force, lor resisting him in the execution of a writ of restitution, founded upon a verdict obtained at Sandwich in 1810, and resistance also to a warrant lor his Lordship's arrest. At the same time, Daniel M'Kenzie obtained l,50u/. damages for forcible detention, &c., by Lord Selkirk. Criminal proceedings were also instituted, and a bill of indictment found against Lord Selkirk himself and the leack'rs of his party, for their illegal transactions in the Western teiiitories ; but I have not vet been able to'trace up the result of this case, and no doubt much valuable int'ormation could he obtained by some one having more time than 1 have had to hunt up the records of these proceedings. The latter trials, I believe, were in the ordinary course of procedure of Upper Canada, and iiot under the special Act for the Indiui territories, &c., and the proceedings taken extended to transactions far down the waters descending to Lake Winnipeg. Having shown the- views of the judicial authorities of Upper Canada, I would advert for a moment to those of Lower Canada. In SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 397 far as I have been In May 1816 Charles (ie Reimhard was tried at Quebec for murder committed in 1816 on the River Winnipej^, under the Canada Jurisdiction Act. Exception was taken to the jurisdictiuii of tiie Court, on the ground that the locaUty was not in the Indian territory, but within the limits of Upper Canada, The Court over-ruleil the objection, and decided that the westerly boundary of Upper Canada wus a line on the meridian of 88° 50' Wi-st from London. I liardly think that any surveyor, geograplier, or delineator of boundaries of any expe- rience or iicientiBc attuinii3, only a part was organised as the Province of Quebec, and that the two Provinces of C'anuda, alter the division, were confined to the same limits provided for the former by the Act of 1774. The Court, the Attorney-general, and the counsel for the prisoner alike concurred in the fact that the River Winnipeg was a part of the country pre- viously belonging to France, und ceded by the Treaty of Pari.* in 1703, and at no stage of the proceedings was the question of its being a part of the Hudson's Buy Company's terri- tories for one moment entertained. De Keimliard was found guilty, and sentenced to death ; but although the Court refused to reconsider its decision, yet the reasoning of Messrs, Stuart & Valliere was so clear, that the judges deemed it expedient that the execution should be delayed till the decision of the Imperial Government could be had upon the question of jurisdiction. The actual reasons given by the Imperial Government I have not been able to get at; but I know that when the decision was given the prisoner was released, and that the question submitted was that of jurisdiction, as above stated. ( must here remark that notwithstanding the able and cimvincing arguments of Messrs. Stuart and Valliere, tliey omitted one point, which the Court would have been obliged, by its own admissions, to have accepted as conclusive against the judgment it gave. The decision given was based upon the construction put by the Court upon the actual wording of an Act of Parliament, but it was admitted that the country to the west only "came into the possession of tiie British Crown at the Treaty of Paris in 1703," and it was admitted that the Kini; could by an act of sovereign authority, " have placed that country under the Government of Canada ;" it was merely denied that he did do so, not asserted that he could not do it. The counsel for the prisoner did not chance to come upon the commissions of the Governors, or they would have found that there had been such an " act of sovereign authority," distinctly describing that country to the west of the Lake ui the Woods as ottuehed to the Government of Canada, and the Court by its own admis- sion must have been hound by it. I may also remark, ihat the decision of the Court at Quebec would have made the westerly limit of Upper Canada a long way east of the United States boundary, leaving out the shores of the lake (where we are now selling mining lands) and iis westerly tributaries, and has therefore nothing in common with the boundary designated for us by the Hudson's Bay Company, viz., the water-shed of the St. Lawrence, and for which there is no earthly authoiity except themselves. On tliis head, I must advert to one other authority, which is of the hiijhest importance at this moment, when troops are about to be sent to the Ked River, and who, if they carry wiih them the erroneous views which, of late years, have been with some success imposed upon the public by the assiduous promulgsition of the Company, may unfortunately be placed in a position of antagonism to the civil posver. There were indeed some troops there, not very many years ago, and no such evil as might be apprehunded now resulted ; but the circumstances are changed ; the scenes of an e.irlier period may come hack if the attempt be made, wholly unsustained by law, to repress a legal right. If siicli should be the case, it would be unfortunate if Her Majesty's soldiers were found on the wrong side, acting against law; for the subject is now benig so well disciisserl, that the people will know their rights, and will appeal to the legal tribunals and the civil powers of the state to sustain them. Better that military rule prevailed entirely, for then the officers would know their duties and their responsibilities. If they go under the impression that they are to bo subject to the supposed civil officers of a self-constitnted government, whicii has no legal existence, tiiey may find themselves called upon to enforce behests whiv'h are not law, which are infractions of law ; they may be called upon to subdue resistance to iilesal acts, to whch resistance is a duty and a right ; and if for acting on these behests they are ultiiuately brought before the courts of justice, they will find that they have acted under those whose powers will be treatetl as a nullity, whose civil offices will be held a mockery. This has been before, this may be so again, if due precaution be not observ. d ; and 1 state it thus slroni;ly now, because the more it is known, the less will be the chance of its recurrence. If proper civil officers, magistrates, &c., were appointed by his Excellency the Governor- general for the lied River country, to whom alone the troops could look in case of emergency, as vested with authoritv, the difficulty und danger would be obviated ; for without this there is no authority in that country by, through, or in any person connected with the Hudson s Bay Company, as such, to which any officer or soldier in Her Majesty's service would be justified in yielding obedience. To revert 'to the authority upon this subject I was about to quote, it will be remembered that, during the troubles which formerly took "place, upon special representations made by Lord Selkirk that he was not safia in proceeding to the lied River Settlement, some troops were 0,24 — Seas, 2, 3 1) 3 Appendix, No. 8. r.i w !1: § w UK hm sent n I 398 APPKNDIX TO REPORT FROM THE ill ' I ! Appendix, No. 8. **"^ *^'''* '^''"' ""** '''^ instructions given to tliein by order of liis Excellency Sir Gordon Druniniond are so clear and decisive, that no one can mistake their purport ; they were as follows : Adjutant-General's Office, Quebec, Sir, , . . 17 April 1810. The Earl of Selkirk haviiit; represented to the Administrator-in-chief and Commandinn- General of the Forces, tliiit he has reasons to apprehend that attempts may be made upon his life ill the course o*' tjio journey throiiL^h the Indinn eountry which he is about to under- take, his Excellency has, in consetpience, been pleased to ijrant his Lordship a military guard for his personal i)rotecti(m against assassination. This party, which is to consist of two serjciints and 12 rank and file of the regiment De Meuron, is placed under your com- nnind, and I am conitnanded to convey to you the positive prohibition of his Excellency the Lieutenanl-jTeneral commaiulinff the forces avrainst the enipluyment of this force for any other )nirpose than the personal protection ot' the Earl of Selkirk. You are particularly ordered not to engaf^e yourself, or the party under your command, in any disputes which may occur betwixt the Karl of Selkirk and his engagees and employees and those of the Noitli-wesl Company, or to take any part or share in any affray which may arise out of such disputes. By such an interference on your part you would not only be disobeying; your instructions, but actin;; in direct opposition to the wishes and intentions of the Government, to the couii- ten^nco, support, and protection of which each party has an equal claim. Tlif Earl of Selkirk has engaged to furnish the party under your command with provisions durinsj; the time of your absence. You are on no occasion to separate from your party, but to return with his Lord- ship, and on no account to suffer yourself, or any of your detachment, to be left at any settlement or post in the Indian country. These instructions are to be clearly explained to the non-commissioned officers and men in your party, I have, &c. Lieutenant Graffeuried, (signed) J. Uarveij, De Meuron 's Regiment. Lieut.-Col. D.A.O. This is another emphatic declaration that the Government held the Hudson's Bay Company and the Canadian traders as possessed of equal rights, and that Her Majesty's troops at least were not to be used against the one to sustain the ridiculous pretensions of the other. Notwithstanding tiie stringency ot' these instructions, however, Lord Selkirk having a number of the disHanded De Meuron soldiers in his pay, it was difficult for the regulars to resist beinj led aioiiir with them to enter upon the North-west Company's property, &c., which involved them in legal difficulties after their return, from which it was not easy to exiricate them. I have confined myself in the foregoinir remarks to the Red River and Saskatchewan countries, which were the principal scenes of the disjiutes which have heretofore called for action ; and it will be seen that the imperial authorities, tlie provincial authorities, the military authorities, and the cuurts of justice, have ad i'.'iiored the pretensions of the Hudson's Bay Company as re:iards tiiese ciuntries. The great danger in renewing the Company's lease uf the Indian territories, honever, would be, that they might drop the pretence that the Red River, &c., is covered by their charter, and claim it as part of tiie Indian tirritoiies; a |)lea whicli, though erroneous, might be more sustained by technicalities, inasmuch as some of the remote parts of Canada, per- fectly under-tood to be such, have nevertheless sometimes been designated the Indian countries in official documents. I have not rei'erred to tiie validity of the Company's charter, either to deny or admit it ; I merely deny that it has effect on the countries I have spoken of « In support of this, I have quoted inoio recent authorities ; but for a more particular in\<3S- tigatiim of their title, its extent and origin, I beg to refer to a report winch I wrote for the Conmiissioner of Crown Lauds some months ago, the substame of which appears in the shape of a menioraiuium in the Return to an Address for certain Papers connected with the Hudson's Bay question. It embodies the view i have eutertaiiitil for many years, and is the result f the finest character, both with respect to soil and climate ; but in such an extent there are, of cimrse, some sterile, rocky, and barren tracts. The immediate shores of Lake Superior are fcr the mor-t pari rockbounil ; but a conviction I have Ions entertained, deduced from certain premises, has been sustained by recent proof that an extensive table- land, or flat counirVj exist-; in the interior to the north. To the west, after crowning the height of land near the lake, theie is a preat deal of flat country. From the most westerly British point on Lake Superior to the Red River s^ 'lenient, the distance in an air line is 3&0 miles, and there is no reason to apprehend 'luii the average diflicultiis of making a road the whole way are i;reatcr than are ordinarily met with in the interior of Canada. Both Sir George Simpson and Dr. Rae admit that, from the high lands near Lake Superior, it is aflat country to the Red River; much of the distance, however, is navigable. From the lower end of the Lake of the \N ooils to the foits of J{:iiny Lake, is navigable in one reach of 158 miles; thence through Rainy Lake, &c., there is a navigable reach of 77 miles (though some say there is a break, making 44 and 33 miles); thence there are 28 miles, making five navigable reaches, the Winnipeg River being nearly as large as the Ottiiuii. From the last 28 miles, the distance is about 115 miles to Lake Superior. If the road were made through this tract, tlie whole country would be easily accessible. There are navigable water«, how- fever, a great part of the last-named distance, though in smaller reaches. I have only given those on which steamers could l)e used whenever desirable. From the Lake of the VVocds to Ked River in a direcl line, without going round by Lake Winnipeg, is said to be a very fine country, but is not thoroughly explored. The route above. f-ketched is the nearest and the easiest to be made available for summer travil. It has an immense advantage in distance over the Minnesota route. Tiiking Detour on Lake Huron as a starlinii' point, common to both routes, we find the direct distances to be from Detour to Pigeon Bay 300, and from Pigeon Bay to Red River, say 35() miles, in all fi5() miles. By way of Minnesota, the distances are: Detour to Chicago, 350 miles; Chicago to St. Paul's, 340 miles ; and from St. Paul's to Fort Jarry, 380 miles ; in all 1,070 miles, making a difference of 414 miles in favour of the Lake Superior route through our own territory. The above distances are given in air lines, and would, of course, be con- siderably increased in actual travel, but there is not the least reason to suppose that they would be more increased by the one r.'Ute than by the other. Pigeon Bay on Lake Superior is equally accessible, and rather less distant from Lake Huron than Chicago is ; but allowing these two points to be equally accessible from the east, when we turn to the west, Fort Garry is 306 miles distant trom our own poit, and 720 miles distant, via St. Piiul's, ti-oin the American. In other words, starting from Fort Garry, it is about 30 miles further to St. Paul's than to I'igcon Bay, and wlien you have got to St. Paul's you are abo snys that" the climate ameliorates to the westward, but yet that in the country Irom Lake Superior west to the Kocky Mountains both soil and climate are adverse to settlement. His proofs are curious, however. He says wheat has been raised with success at Fort Cumberland. Now Fort Cumberland is upwards of 300 miles due north of the boundary. Following the same meridian due south, therefore, there must be one of the finest wheat- growing countiies imaginable ; at least a due north and south line of upwards of 300 miles in this part of the world would leach from a very fine 10 a very indifferent wheat-growing- country ; he says also that horses live out and find their own food all winter on the north branch of the Saskatchewan, and that the buffiilo gets very fat in winter. He says that barley is the only cereal that can be grown with success at Fort Simpson; but this being about 62° north latitude (he mistakes in calling it 5(1°), the climate on the same meridian at 49" must be magnificent. The fact is that those who have given evidence for the Company speak of the territories from Lake Superior to the Rocky Mountains, and from latitude 49° to the Polar Regions, as a whole ; and thus it is that Fort Simpson is flraiiged in to prove the unfitness of the country generally for agriculture; whereas the fact that nothing better than barley can be grown at Archangel might us well be adduced to prove that wheat would not succeed in I'olund, or the fairest portions of Germany ; or the inhos- pitable climate of Lapland made an argument against the cultivation of the British islands. Colonel Lefroy, indeed, condems both soil and climate, and attril)utes the success of iigri- cuiture at Port Simpson to the fact of the farm being on an island formed by diluvial deposit. If then, the accident of an island of alluvial soil, in latitude (i2°, found a climate genial enough to make " farming unusually successful," with " very fine timber," though the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. confirmed by the a strong desire tu- if of rendering this ! of Lake Superior, c a liritish popula- ihrough the United r in winter? The ;a8on. But it may ;re, then, no other upon the siibjpct : ;rior, the country is tt nearer the lake, leoiis iinpressiivi to in (Januda is a lev(;l ly keeping out the J mould on the sur- p is about the best n far enough back ! the explorations of ;o the interior, west- ry is found. I shall explored or reported losing that the route een Quebec and the until a considerable country, I shall be s to render a refuta- es, or those who are deep interest in the nittee of the House ay Company, must Q associated with it. Date the reception it e soil and climate of ; the climate on tire parallel of latitude, the World's Exhibi- parallelsof latitude; mediate bank of the le we find one point, , and another point, oves by westing, Sir etual frost, ward, but yet that in soil and climate are leat has been raised i of 300 miles due of the finest wheat- pwards of 300 miles ;rent wheat-growing- winter on the nortli ■8S at Fort Simpson ; e climate on the same riven evidence for the iMountiiins, and from Simpson is dra-ged vhereas the fact iliat be adduced to prove many ; or the mhos- ihf British islands. the success of sii^ri- d formed by alluvml 02°, found a climate fine timber," though the 401 the " largest trees seldom exceed three feet in diameter," no language of mine could convey Appendix, No. 8. a stronger disproof of the evidence (tiven by the same gentleman against the climate as a -— whole, mcluding 13 degrees fuitlier south, and the same proximity to the Pacific as Fort Simpson. Renpecting my own opinions upon the subject, from having; read what has been written by indifferent parties upon it, I think the nature of the climate is just as well established as that of the climate of Europe and Asia is; it is affected by the same causes precisely, varied in a greater or less degree, in different localities, by circumstances peculiar to each. The west side of the continent of Europe and Asia is warmer on the same parallel of latitude than the east side, because the west has an ocean to the windward of it, the pre- vailing winds being westerly. The cause and effect are precisely the same on the continent of America, only in a some- what greater dep^ree, from having a larger and a warmer ocean to the windward of it, and a colder sea to chill its eastern shores. The greater coldness of the North Atlantic, on the eastern shores of America, is caused by the mass of ice that annually drives southward through Davis's Straits. I believe there are no such icebergs reach the same latitudes in the Pacific. The isothermal lines of equal temperature run further north, therefore, on the west coast of America on the Pacific than on the west coast of Europe on the Atlantic. The observations upon which the fact is based are concurred in by all disinterested authorities; auainst such testimony the evidence of the few interested in the Hudson's Bay Company, or tlieir friends, is entirely valueless. Assuming, however, that equal latitude gives only the same mean temperature on the west coast of America as on the west coast of Europe, we find that some of the finest countries in the world lie between the 40th and 00th parallels, including the whole of the British Islands. The 60th parallel of north latitude pnsses through Christiana, in Norway, a little north of Stockholm, the capital of Sweden, and through St. Petersburgli, but in following the same parallel through I.urope and Asiii, we come out in the most northerly parts of Kamschatka, \vhich cannot be said to be habitable in the ordinary sense, There is no biirrier in climate, therefore, to a St. Petersbur^h being at latitude 00° north on the west coast of America, any more than on the west coast of Europe; although on following the same parallel eastward across the continent to the shores of Hudson's Bay, or the confluence of Hudson's and Davis's Straits, we come to countries whose sterile shores and wintry skies forbid the hope of their ever becoming the homes of civilised nu n, except as hunters and fishers. The 49th parallel of north latitude pusses nearly a degree south of the southernmost point of England, through the environs of Paris, through the southern provinces of Germany, and less than a degree north of Vienna. There is no reason, therefore, as regards climate, why the lower course of the Fraser, or the upper course of the Columbia, in British territory and in the same latitudes, >';ioi.ld not ' rival the banks of the Rhine, the Meuse, or the Moselle ; there is no such reason why the valleys of the Unjiga, the Elk, the Saskatchewan, the Red River, and the Assiniboine, should not yield their golden harvests as rich as those of the Weser, the Elbe, the Oder, or the Vistula. The geographical affinities between these localities in relation to those influences by which climate is affected are indeed such that it would require some veiy strong facts, sustained by a concurrence of all the most credible testimony, to prove tliat the above com- parison was too favourable to the places I have named on this continent; tl, facts established, however, by nil disinterested authorities prove the reverse. What, then, is this immense region, equal in area and in climate to , my of the most powerful kingdoms of the Old NN orld, composed of? Bare rock, snow-clan iiiountuins, and sandy plains, or swamps and morasses, are what the friends of the Hudson's llay Company would liave us believe. We find, however, that the construction of this part of the globe is very much like the rest of the world, varying from the primitive to the secondary and tertiary formations, with limestone, coiil, &c., in abundance; and to assert that a country of such formation, and with such a climate, is unfit for the abode of man, is simply to assert that the laws of nature are reversed in regard to it. The Company and their friends, however, try to prove too much. According to Sir George Simpson, immediately to the south of the 40th parallel on the Pacific coast, there is a beautiful country (that being United States' territory), and immediately to the north of that parallel the counliy is all rock and mountniii, " quite unfit for colonisation," that being British territory ; indeed, according to him, the 40th parallel forms a sort of natural wail ncross the continent, that is, not quite across it ; for a peculiar feature in his evidence is, that the regions of permiinent frost get down south of it at one point, and not the least strange part of this phenomenon is that it just occurs at that point where the parallel of 40° censes to be the boundary, and the British territory also gets to the south of it, viz., at Rainy River. Animal life, hiwever, abounds in the country, the buffalo literally " swarm," even according to the evidence submitted by ihe Company. The Hocky Mountains have also been referred to, as affecting the climate injuriously by the influence of the perpetual snow upon their Summits ; but the fact that the snow-clad mountains of other countries do not prevent the valleys from being habitable is a sufficient argument ngaaist this ; indeed, it is questionable whether the increased reflection of the sun's rays concentrating in the vallevs below does not more than compensate for the cod communicated liom the snow upon their summits. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 E I may 1: i WW m m I m il^ ri .Appendix, No. 8> 402 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE I may remark, in cunclusion, thnt the Lake Superior route to the Red River was not always such a solitude as it is now. The strife between the companies was deplorable in many respects, but the disorder and anarchy could easily have been subdued, indeed was subdueil ; and could have been so still more readily, had the facilities for access been as great tiien as now. But it must be remembered that canoe navigation ut that time com- menced at Lachine, and yet even then there was a great highway, for there was money to be made, and a land worth Kgittini; for lay in the distance. The following extract from a work published by a gentleman, who had come across from the Pacific, represents the scene on his arrival at Fort William, on August 10,1617: — " On inquiry, I ascertained that the aggregate number of those persons in and about the establishment was composed of natives of the following countries, viz.: Engl.md, Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Ituly, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland, United States of America, the Gold Coast of Africa, the Sandwich Islands, Bengal, Canada, with various tribes of Indians, and a mixed progeny of Creoles or half-breeds. What a strange medley ! There were assembled, on the shores of this inland sea, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, sun-worshippers, men from all parts of 'he world, and whose creeds were ' wide as the poles asunder,' united in one common object, and bowing down before the same idol." — Rom Cose, London, 1831. These were the features of an embryo city, in strange contrast with the desolate and decaying loveliness which the blight of an illegal monopoly has thrown over it to-day. The entrepot of the trade of half a continent, which but for that bhght would at this day have helped to enrich the Canadian people, to fill their canals, and to swell the traffic on their railroads ; and it depends upon the action to be taken now how long the incubus is to last. If I have said anything which may seem harsh or uncalled-for of any one connected with the Hudson's bay Company, I regret it. i have made my answers hurriedly, and may have used expressions I would retal, as I have had no motive but to show the truth, though I have desired to speak it strongly, for the good of ray country, and in the interest of hu manity. Appendix, No. 9. Appendix, No. g. LETTER from //. Merivale, Esq., to the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General, with Enclosure. Sir, Downin^-street, 9 June 18&7. I AM directed by Mr. Secretary Labouchere to transmit to you, jomtly with the (Solicitor- General — Attorney-General,) copies of two despatches from the Governor of Canada, enclosing the copy of a minute of his Executive Council, and extract from another minute of the same, in reference to the questions respecting the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company, now under investigation by 11 Committee of the House of Commons. You will observe from the forniei of these minutes that the Executive Council suggest, on the part of Canada, a territorial claim over a considerable extent of country, which is also claimed by the Hudson's Bay Company, as owners of the soil, and with rrghts of govern- ment and exclusive trade under their charter. You will observe by the annexed Parliamentary Papers of 12th July 1850, that the "Statement" of the Hudson's Hay ("onipany's rights ns to territory, tra'le, taxation, and foveinment, made by them to' Earl Grey, sis Secretary for the Colonies, on the VM\i eptember 184i), was submitted to the then law officers of the Crown, who reported that they were of opinion that the lights so claimed by the Company properly bclonired to them ; but suggested, at the same time, a mode of testing those claims by petition to Her Majesty, which might be referred to the Judicial Comniiltee. I am further to annex a Parliamentary Return made in 1842, containing the charier of the Company, and documents relating thereto; and another of '23d April 1849, containing amongst other papers an Act of '2d William and Mary, " for confirming to the Governor and Company trading to Hudson's Bay their privileges and trade." The rights so claimed by the Company have been repeatedly questioned since 18.50, by private persons in correspondence with the Secretary of State, and are now questioned to a certain extent, as appears by these despatches, by the present local government of Canada. 1 am to request that you wiil, jointly with (Solicitor-General — Attorney-General,) take these pafiers into your consideiation, and report, — W hether you think that the Crown can lawfully and constitutionally raise, for legal deci- sion, all or either of the following questions : — The validity at the present day of the charter itself. The validity of the several claims of territorial right, of government, exclusive trade, and taxation, insisted on by the Company. The geographical extent of this territorial claim (supposing it to be well founded, to any extent). if you are of opinion that the Crown can do so, you are requested further to state the proper steps to be taken, in your opinion, by the Crown, ar the proper tribunal tc be resorted to ; and whether the Crown should act on behalf of the k: cal government of Canada, as exercising a delegated share of the lloval authority, or in any other way. And, SEl-ECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 403 And, lastly, ii'joughouiii be of opinion that the Crown cannot properly ho act, whether you Appendix, No. 9. see any objection to tlie quesiions being ruitied by tiie local ijovernment of Canada actia^r independently of the Crown ; or whether they can be raised by some private party in the manner suggested by the law advihers in 1850, the Crown undertaking lo bear the expense of the proceedings. I am, Sic. The Attorney-General. ^sii;ne 404 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE ■m Appendix, No. 9, general viilidity of the charter; but that on every legal principle the Company '« territorial — — ownership of the lands granted and the rights necessarily incidental thereto (as, for example, the right of excUulint; Irom their territory persons acting in violation of their regulations) ought to be deemed to be valid. But with respect 10 any rights of government, taxation, exclusive administration of justice or exclusive trade, otherwise than as a consunuence of the right of ownership of the land, such rights could not be legally insisted on by the Hudson's liay Company as having been legally granted to them by the Crown. This remark, however, requires some explanation. The Company has, under the charter, power to make ordinances (which would be in the nature of bye-lnws) for the government of the persons employed by them, and also power to exercise jurisdiction in all matters, civil and criminal ; but no ordinance would be valid that was contrary to the common law, nor could the Company insist on its riuht to administer justice as against the Crown's pieiogative right to establish courts of civil and criminal justice \,itli:n the territory. We do not think, therefore, that the charter should be treated as invalid, because it pro- fesses to confer these powers upon the Company ; for to a certain extent they may be [aw- fully used, and for an abuse of them the Company would be amenable to law. '1 he reniainiiig subject of consideration is the question of the geoLrmphical extent of the territory (granted by the charter, and whether its boundaries can in any and what manner be ascertained. In the case of grants of considerable age, such as this charter, when the words, as is often the case, are indefinite or ambiguous, the rule is, that tliey are construed by usao'e and enjoyment, including in these latter terms the assertion of ownership by the Company on important public occasions, such as the Treaties of Ryswick and Utrecht, and agHiii in 1750. To these elements of consideration upon this question must be added the inquiry (as sug- gested by the following words of the charter, viz. " not possessed by the subjects of any other Christian prince or state "), whether, at the time of the charter, any part of the territory now claimed by the Hudson's Bay Company could have been rightfully claimed by the French, as falling within the boundaries of Canada, or Nouvelle France, and also the eflect of the Acts of Parliament passed in 1774 and 1791. Under tiiese circumstances, we cannot but feel that the important question of the boun- daries of the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, might with great utility, as between the Company and Canada, be made the subject of a quasi-judiciiil inquiry. But this cannot be done except by the consent of both parties, namely, Canada and the Hudson's Bay Company, nor would the decision of a Committee of the Privy Council have any effect as a binding judicial determination. But if the Hudson's Biiy Company agreed to the proposal of the Chief Justice of Canada, that the question of boundaries should be referred to the Privy Council, it being further understood by both parties, that the determination of the Council shall be carried into effect by a declaratory Act of Parliament, we think the proceeding would be the best mode of determining that which is, or ought to be, the only real subject of controversy. The form of procedure might be a petition to the Queen by Chief Justice Draper, describing himself as acting under the direction of the Executive Council of Canada ; unless, which w )uld be the more solemn mode, an address were presented to Her Majesty by the Canadian Parliament. Counsel would be heard on behalf of Canada and of the Company. The Right Honourable H. Labouchere, m. p., &c. dec. We are, &c. (signed) Richard Bethell. Henry S. Keating. Appendix, No. 10. Appendix, No 10. LETTER from the Right Honourable //. Lahoucfiere, m. p., to the Chairman of the — Hudson's Bay Company. Sir, Coloni'^.l Of5ice, l.-^ July 1857. In a statement which I have received from the law officers of the Crown there is the fol- lowing pass^e : " The remaining subject of consideration is the question of tise geographica? extent of the territory granted by the charter, and whether its boundaries can in any and what manner be ascertained. In the case of grants of considerable aon them on the renewal of the licence, on tlic faith of being firmly supported by Her Majesty's Government in maintaining their present establishments in full efticiency. It would be inexpedient, in their opinion, to enter upon a new and further term of tlieu' administration, without the fullest and must explicit ai48urance of that suppoit. Tliu Directors have always considered that the settlement of 1821 was sanctioned uy the Uovernnient and the Legislature, and the monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company then re-established and extended, quite as much, if not more, as the best instrument the tiovernuient could employ for the aduiinistralion, security, and pence of thi^ Indian country, as lor the u(lvuMta„in in the exercise of its present functions ; to concur in any arrangements proposed by Government or Parliament, which «dl nol interfere with or obstruct their power of independent management of the concerns of '.he Company; and to give assistance and support to any magistrates appointed by the GovernmeAt in endeavouring to maintain the present undisturb^ state of tne Indian territories ; but they will decline to undertake a divided administration, or accept the responsibility of carrying on the Govern- ment of the country, under the exceptional circumstances of the case, unless assured of the same cordial and unhesitating support from Her Majesty's Government which they have hitherto enjoyed. ' ' I have, &c. (signed) John Shepherd, Governor, SELECT COMMITTEE ON TIIK HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 407 co-op«rtti(m and nU to lie Hubmitted lie chairman, their disposition of Her their utiiiirs. Tlicy Norlh-West Com- the ri'suitfi oi their re,' the government by the expressed he liiitt 37 years, ther charge of the the licence, on the aining their present inioii, to enter upon and must exphcit at the settlement of he monopoly of the tell, if not more, as alion, security, and fhose interests were a been lonj^ since of the stock of the in whatever arrange- country, any mixed e Company will only ;ent state of affairs. :cept such situations, id, the probability is istic discussions with ill coraiQunity whose ns ; to concur in any lol interfere with or Company; and to give leAt in endeavouring it they will decline to rying on tlie Govern- unless assured of the lent which they have AppenJix, No. 1 1. HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. COPY of the existing Chauteb or Urant by the Ckown to the Hudson's Bay Com- PA.NV ; together with Copies or Extracts of the Corhesponkknce wiiicli took place at the last Iteiiewul of the Charter between the Oovcrnment nud tliu Company, or of Individuals on behalf of the Company ; also, the Dates of all former Charters ur Grants to that Company. No. 10 12 13 14 SCHEDULE. Ooternor of th« HuiUod'i Bajr Company to Lord SUnley. CORRESPONDENCE : Governor of the Hudion'i lUy Coiupony to LoTil CilenvlK, Tha [Tnder* Secretary of State for the Co- loDiet to Deoii L« MHrchant, Kay of an AddrevH d thn HouRe of Coniinoim for certain nnpcrs rehitin^ tuthe HiuUoiih Uhv Coinpuny ; and i'c(|ueMtint( that you iimv be furnished, tor presentutioii to the House, with n copy of the cxittiinf (.'liiirter or tirmit by tlie Crown to tlio Coiupiiny, tugether withu list of the dutes of all former Cliurters or (Jriiiitj to thcin. In complinnce with vour Lordship'i requehl, 1 herewith hand a printed copy of the first niul only f'hnrter for incorporiitinij thn MiidHon'H Uny Conipnny. tjriiiited hy IiIh Miijcsty Kini; Charles the i^rcond in the yeiir 107(»; to;:ctlu'r with copy of the Lir«>ii>e givtu to tlie Company by Her Mnjesty, on the :li)th Mny IHIJII (under the provinion:* of the Act 1 it 2 Geo, >, c. rif Knulaiiil tiaiiin^ inio lluiJHiin'H Hay," imr hody corpiiraie and politic, in (li'cd and ni mitne, ri'iilly and lullv fur vivr, Inr uh, our liciiM and HiieceiiHiir*, wi: ixi make, ordain, constitute, CMtiililisli, conllini and declare by ihexe preMents, mid that by tlif saiiie niinii' of (ioveriior and (Junipuny ill Advriitnreis ol Knulund trading into Mudson's Hay, they Hhall have per- |M'luiil MUCceHNion,und tlmt tliey ami their Miccennirs, by ihi' iiiinii' of " Ihe (iovernor and C'oni- |)uny of AdventiireiN of l'jii:land tradi " into lludHonH Hay," be, and ul all times hereafter Hhall be pen>oiinble and capable in law to have, purchuHe, receive, prsHcxs, enjoy and retain lands, rents, privilcgis, libt-rtiis, jurisdictions, Iranchiscs and beieditunenis, of what kind, natun^ or (juulily soever they b>', to them and tbcir succesMors ; and also to t;ivc, gr.int, deinise, alien, assign and dispose 'inds, tenements and liere>liiainenlH, niid to do and execute all and Hini;uliir other Illinois by tlie same naniu that to ihein shall or may appertain to do; and that they and their Hiiceessors, iiy the name of '' llie (ioveniur and (/'ompany of Adven- turers of England tradin;; into Hudson's Uay," may plead and be iinpleadcil, answer and bo answered, defend and bedelended, in whatsoever courts and places, bi'lori; wh>itsoiver judges and justices, and other persons and ollicers, in ull and singular actions, pleas, suits, quar- rels, causes and demands whatsoever, of whatsoever kind, nature or sort, in such miinnei' ami foriii us any other our lieiie people of ibis our realm ot Fiuiaiid, being peisons iible and capable in law, may or can have, purchase, receive, possess, enjoy, retain, i;ive, grant, demise, alien, assign, ilisposi', plead, deli'iid and be defeiiilcd, do, permit and execute ; and ihat the said Governor and Company ol Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's Liny, and tlie'r successorn, may have a coininon seal to servi; for all the causes and businesses of them nnd thiir successors, and that it shall and may be lawful to the said Governor and Company, and their successors, the same seal, from time to time, at tin ir will and pleasure, to break, ehnnge, and to make anew or alter, as to them shall seem expedient : Ami fuk- TiiEit wR WILL, and by tl'ese presents, for us, our heirs and successois, wk do ordain, that there shall be truin heiicefoiih one of the same Company lo be elected and appointed in such lorin us lierealter in thest presents is expressed, which shall be called the Govenior of the said Company ; and that the said (Governor and Company sliiill or may select seven of their number, in such form as hcrealter in these piesi iils is ex|iresseil, wliich shall be culled the Committee of the suid (Company, which ('oinmittee of seven, or any three of ihe-n, together with the Governor or Deputy Governor of ibe said (,'onipany l«ir the time beini;, sht tiovernor. Xnmps (if tho first Comiaitteo, Power to elect a Ueiiuty Cionrnor. Oiith to be nJmi- nistercJ to hiai. Kiiture (iovevnoiij, liow elected. lit ' M I. 'Jlp V 4J0 APPIiiNDIX TO REPORT FROM THE I '.y'^ \ !i: i Jlpp'nilix. No. 11. Ontb to uc odmi- sutend to them, •nd to each mnin- ler of the Company < Annunl election of s new Committee. Oaiii to be mlmi- nistereil to tlie ' Cuiumittee. Vacancies in the office of tiDveraor and Deputy (id- vcrnor, how filled up. GoTernor or Deputy (Governor may he reinuvcd, «nd others elected. Members of the Committee iiiiiy be removed, knd others elected. Governor or Deputy of the said Governor, and ths said Company for the time lieiii;:, or the greater pari of them which then sb;tll happen to l)e fireseni, wiiereoF the Governor of the .-■aiil Company or his Deputy fur the lime homu; to he one, to elect and nominate one of the said Company, which .shall be Governor of the said Company for one whole year then next follovvinir, which person being so elected and nominated to be Governor of the'said Company as is afore.said, helore he be admitted to the execution of the said otiice, Hhall take a corporal oath bt-fore the List Governor, being lii» predecessor or his Deputy, and a., three or more of the Committee of the said Com/)any for the time be'og, that he shall from time to time well and truly execute the office of Governor of the said Company in all things coucerning the same ; and that immediately after the same oath so taken, lie shall and may execute mid use the .n as ii siiall hap|)en, the Governor or De|mty Governor of the s.iid Company for the time being, at any time within one year after that he shall be nominated, elevted and sworn to the office of the Governor of the said Company, as is afonsaid, to die or to be removed from the said oltice, which Governor or Deputy Governor not he removable at the jileasiiie of the rest of the said Company, or th" greater part of them whieh shall be present at their public .isseniblies, commonly called liiMr General l.'ourts, holdeii for the saiil Companv, that then and so often it shall niul '.nay be lawful to mid for the resi(iue of the said Co'iipany for the. time being, or the greater part of them, within a convenient time after the deatli or removing of any such Governor or Deputy Governor, to assemble them- selves in such eonvenietit place as they shall think fit, for the election of the Governor or Depnty (tovernor of the t,a\d (/(unpaiiy ; and that the said Company, or tne greater part of them, being then and there pies'fent, shall and may, then and there, before their departure from the said place, elect and nominate one other of tiie said Company to be Governor or De|)iity Governor lor tlie said Company, in the place and stead of him that so died or was removed ; whieh person being so elected and nominated to the office of Governor or Deputy Governor of the said Company, shall have and exercise the said office for and during tlie residue of the said year, takioi; first a corporal oatii, as is aforesaid, for the due execu- tion thereof; and this to be done f om time to time so often as the case shall so require: A N I) ALSO, our will and pleasure is, and by these presents, for us, our heirs and succes- sors, WE DO t;rant unto the said (iovernor and Company, that wlieii and as often as it sliall h;(])peii anv piMxiii nr persons of the Committee of the said (.'oinpany for the time beinsr, at anv time within one year next alter that they or any of them shall be nominated, elected and sworn to the olliee ot Committee of the said Company as is aforesaid, to die or I0 be removed fri.ni the siiid office, which Committees not demeaning tliemselves well in their said office, we will to be removable at the pleasure of the said Governor and Company, or the aroater part of tliem, whereof the Governor of the said Company for the time being or his Deputy to bo one, that then and so often, it shall and may be lawful to and for the said Governor, and the ri'^t of the Company for the time being, or the greater part of tbeiu, whereof the Governor for the time being or his Deputy to be one, within convenient time after the tieath or removing of any of the said Committee, to assemble themselves in such con- venient place us is or shall lie usual and accustomed (or the election of the Governor of the said Company, or where else the Governor of the said Company for the time being or his Deputy sliall appoint : And that the said Governor and Company, or the greater part of them, whereof the Govtrnor for the time being or his Deputy to be one, bein; then and there SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 414 there present, sliall and may, then and there, before their departure from the said placs, elect and nominate one or more of the said Compniiy to be of the Coniniittee of the said Company in the place und stead of him or them that so died, or were or was su removed, which person or persons *o nominated and elected to the office of Committee of the said Company wliall have and exercise the said office lor and during the residue of the said year, taking first a coqinral oath, as is aforesaid, for the due execution thereof, and this to be done from time to lime, so often as the case shall require : And to the »-nd the 8:iid Governor and Company of Adventurers of Enu;land tradiii!^ mto Hudson's Bay may be pncouragied to undertake and eflectually to prosecute the said design, of our more especial grace, certain knowled>;e and mere motion, we have given, granted anti oonfirmed, and by these presents, for \xs, our heirs and successors, do !;ive. grant and confirm, unto the said Governor and Company, and their succesi^ors, the Foie trade and commerce of all those ^eas, straits, bays, rivers, lakes, creeks, and sounds, in whatsoever latiiude they shall he, that lie within the entrance of the stiaits, commonly called Hudson's Straits, together with all the lands and territories upon the countries, coasts and confines of the seas, bays, lakes, rivers, creeks and sounds aforesaid, that are not already actually possessed by or granted tu iiny of our subjects, or |)osses9ed by the subjects of any other Christian Prince or State, with the fishing of all soris of fish, whales, sturgeons, and all other royal fishes in the seas, bays, inlets and riveis within the premises, and the fish therein taken, together with the roy.dty of the sen upon the coasts within the limits aforesaid, and all mines royal, as well discovered as not discovered, of gold, silver, gems and precious stones, to be found or discovered within the territories, limits and places aforesaid, and thiit the said hind be from heni-eforth reckoned and reputed as one ol our plantations or colonies in America, called " Rupert's Land :" And furtheu, we do by these presents, for us, our heirs and successors, make, cieate and con>titute the said Governor «ind Comi-iaiiy lor the time being, ;ind their succes- sorg, the true and absolute lords and proprietoT> of the same territory, limits and places aforesaid, and of allother the premises, savins always the faith, allegiance and sovereign dominion due to us, our heirs and successors, (or the same, to havi., hold, possess and enjoy the said territory, limits and plares, and all and singular other the premises iiereby granted as aforesaid, with their and every of their rights, members, j urisdictions, pieroga- tives, royalties and appurtenances whatsoever, to them the said Governor and Company, and their successors for ever, to be holdem of us, our heirs and successors, as of our manor of East Oreenwici*, in our county of Kent, in free and common soccage, and nut in capite or by Knight's service; yielding and payino yearly t!) us, our heirs and successors, for the same, two elks and two black beavers, whensoever and as often as we, our heirs and successors, shall happen to enter into the said countries, territories and regions Iiereby granted : Anu further, our will and pleasure is, and by these presents, fur us, our iieirs and successors, we do grant unto the said Governor Hnd Company, and to their successors, that it shall and may be lawful to and for tht? said Governor and Company, and their successors, from time to tiiiK-, to assemble themselves, for or about any the mutters, causes, aA'airs or businesses of the said trade, in any place or phices for tiie same convenient, wiibin our dominions or elsewhere, and there to hold court for the said Company, and tlie iiHairs thereof; and that, also, it shall and may be lawful to and for them, and the greater part of them, being so assembled, and that shall tlten and there be present, in any such place or places, whereof the GoTernor or his Deputy for the time being to be one, to make, ordain and cunsiiiiite such and so many reasonable laws, constitutions, orders and ordinances as to them, or the greater part of ihem, being- then and there present, shall seem necessary and convenient for the good government of the said Company, and of all governors of colonies, forts and plantations, factors, niasteis, mariner, and other officers employed or to be employed 111 any of the territories and lands aforesaid, and in any <>i their voyages ; and for the better advancement and continuance of the said trade or traffic and plantations, and the same laws, constitutions, orders and ordi- nances so made, to putin, use and execute accordingly, and at their pleasure to revoke and alter the same or any of them, as the occasion shall require : And that the said Governor and Company, so often as they shall make, ordain or es' 'blish any such laws, constitutions, orders and oioinnnces, in such form a« aforesaid, shall and may lawiully impose, ordain, limit and provide si.t.'h pains, penalties and punishments upon all offenders, contrary to such l:iws, constitutions, orders and ordinances, or any of them, as to the said Governor and Company for the time being, or the greater part of them, then and there being present, the said Governor or Ins deputy being always one, shall seem necessary, leiinisiie or convenient for the observation of the same laws, constitutions, orders and ordniunces; and the same fines and amerciaments shall and may, by their officers and servants from time tu time to be appointed for that purpose, levy, take and have, to the use ot the said Governor and Com- pany, and iheir successors, without the impediment of' us, our heirs or successors, or of any the officers or ministers of us, our heirs or successors, and without any account therefore to us, our heiis or successors, to be made: All ;ind singular which laws, constitutions, orders and ordinances, su as aforesaid to be made, we will to bo duly observed and kept under the pains and ])L'nalties therein to be contained ; so always us the said laws, constitutions, orders and ordinances, fines and amerciaments, be reasonable and not con- trary or repugnant, but as near as may be agreeable 10 tlie laws, statutes or customs of ihis our realm : And fuktiiekmore, of our ample and abundant grace, cenain knowledge and more motion, wb havb granted, and by these presents, for us, our heirs and successors, do grant unto the saiil Governor and Compnny, and their successor^, that they and their suo- ciessors, and their fucturs, servant* and agents, for tbeai and on their behalf, and not other- 0.24— Sess. a. 3 F 2 wise, Apjiendiz, No. M, Grant of the sole trade, lanila, mines^ mmerols, fisheries. The territory to be rcckonec. one of his Majesty's Planta- tions or Colonies in America, and called Rupert's Land ; and the Governor and t'onipany to be the Lords Proprietors of the same for ever. Governornnd Com- pany may assemble and maice laws, ordinances, &c. for the good govern- ment of their terri- tory and the ad- vancemetit of their trade ; 'ill ' nnd may impose penalties and punishments, pro- vided the same are reasonable, and not repugnant to the law* of England. Further pvant of trade. , It i '• I 1 1 m\ i I 41.2 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE ii4i]M'n(!W, No. 11. i^ii.^': r a -I , . i?« And no sul)je and trafficking; to and from tiie territory, limits and places aforesiiid ; but also the wiiole and entire trade and traffic t') and from all havens, bay^, creeks, rivers, lakes and seas, into which they shall find entrance or passage by water or land out of the territories, limits or places aforesaid ; and to and with all the natives and people inhabiting, or which shall in- habit within the territories, limits and places aforesaid ; and to and with all other nations inhabiting any the coasts adjacent to the said territories, limits und places which are not already possessed as aforesaid, or whereof the sole liberty or privilege of trade and traffic is not granted to any other of our subjects: And wb, of our furthe;- royal favour, and of our more especial grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, i14vk granted, and by these pre- srnts, for us, our heirs and successors, do grant to the said Governor and Compiny, and to their successors, that neither the said territories, limits and places, hereby granted as aforesaid, nor any part thereof, nor the islands, havens, ports, rities, town* or places thereof or therein contained, shall be visited, fi'cqueiite>l or haunted by any of the subjects of us, our heirs or successors, contrary to the t, ue meaning of these presents, and by virtue of our prerogitive royal, which we will not have in thit behalf arijued or brought into question: We straitly charge, command and pi-<>hibit for us, our hfirs and successors, all the 8ul)jecta of us, our h.-irs and successors, of what degree or quality soever they be, that none of them, directly or indirrjclly, do visit, haunt, Irequent or trade, traffic or adventure, by way of merchandize, into or from any of ilie said territories, limits or phices hereby granted, or any or either of them, oiher than the said Governor and Company, and such particular persons as now be or hereafter shall be of that Company, their agents, factors and assigns, unless it be by the license and agreameni of the said Governor and Company in writing first had and obtained, under their corarnnn seal, to be granted, upon pain that every such person or uersons that shall trad? or traffic into or from any of the countries, territories or limits aforesaid, other than the said G;)vernor and Co'npany and their successors, shall incur our indignation, and the (arfeiturii and the loss of the goods, merchandizes and other thin:^s whatsoever, which so shall b' brought into this realm of England, or a.iy the dominions of the same, contrary to our said prohibition, or the purport or true meaning of these presents, for which the said Governor and Company shall find, take and seize in other places out of our dominion, where the said Company, their agents, factors or ministers shall trade, traffic or inhabit by virtue of these our letters patent, as also the ship and ships, with the furniture thereof, whsreiii such "orids, merchan- dizes and other thiiius shall be bron or places afore specified, contrary to the true meaning of these presimts, without the consent of the said Governor and Company, or the most part of them : And, of our iiiore abundant grace and favour to the said Governor and Company, we do hereby dedare our will and pleasure to be, that if it siiall so happen that any of the persons free or to be free of the saiil Company of Adventurers of Rn>;land tradinu into Hudson's Bay, who shall, before the going forth of any ship or ships appointed for a voYAnE or otherwise, promise or agree, by writing under his or their hands, to adven- ture any sum or sums of money towards the furnishing any provision, or maintenanca of any voyase or voyages, set forth, or to be set forth, or intended or meant to be sei forth, by the said Governor and CDinpany, or the more part of them present at any public assiMubly, commonly called their General Court, shall not within the space of twenty days next after warning given to him or them by the said Governor or Company, or their known officer or minister, bring in and deliver to tlieTreisurer or Treasurers appointed for the Compiny, such sums of money as shall have been expressed and set down in writing by the said person or persons, subscribed with the name of said Adventurer or Adventurprs, tha' then and ai all times after it shall and may be lawful to ami for the said Governor and Company, or the more part of them present, whereof the said Governor or his Deputy to be one, at any of their General Courts or (lencral Assemblies, to remove and disfranchise him or tlieui, and every such person and persons at their wills and pleasures, and he or they so removed and dis- franchised not 10 be permitted to trade into the oouniries, territories and limits aforesaid, or any part thereof, nor to have any adviMitiire or stock goim; or remainin,' with or aunHUSt the said Conqianv, witliout the special license of tin said (iivernor and Coni|)iny, or the more jmrt of them present at any General Court, first had and oh:ained in that hiliaU', a'ly thing before in these presents to the contrary thereof in anywise notwithstandi ii;': AnI) OLK wiLi. AND PLKAsUHE 18, and liciehy we do also ordain, that it shall and may be lawful to and for the said Governor and Company, or the greater part of them, whereof the Governor for SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 413 for the time being; or his Deputy to be one, to admit into and to be of the said Company all such servants or factors, of or for the said Company, and nil such others as to them or the most part of them present, at any court held for the said Company, the Governor or his Deputy being one, shall be thought fit and agreeable with the orders and ordinances made ami to be made for the government of the said Company: And fiihtiier, our will and pleasure is, and by these presents for us, our heirs and successors, we do grant unto the said Governor and Company, and to their successors, that it shall and may he lawful in all elections and bye-laws to be made by the General Court of the Adventurers of the said Company, that every person shall have a number of votes according to his stock, that is to say, (or every hundred pounds by him subscribed or brought into the present stock, one vote, and that any of those that have subscribed less than One hundred pounds mav join their respective sums to make up One hundred pomids, and have one vote jointly for the sen>: , •'.nd not otherwise: And FURrirKU, of our special grace, certain knowledge and mere moticii, WE DO, lor us, our heirs aiul successors, grant to and with the said Governor and Company of Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's bay, that all lands, islands, territories, plantations, forts, fortification*, factories or colonic*, where the said Company's factories and trade are or shall be, within any the ports or places afore limited, shall be immediately and from henceforth under the power and command of tiie said Governor and Company, their successors and assigns ; saving the faith and allegiance due 10 he performed to us, our heirs and successors as aforesaid ; and that the said Governor and Company shall have liberty, full power and authority to appoint and establish Governors and all other ortiicrs 10 govern them, and that the Governor and his Council of the several and respective ])laces where the said Compmy shall have plantations, forts, factories, colonies or phiccs of trade within any the countries, lands or territories hereby granted, may have power to judge all persons belonging to the said Governor and Conipanv, or tluit shall live under them, in all causes, whether civil or criminal, according to the laws of this kingdom, ami to execute justice accordingly ; and in case any crime or misdemeanor shall he connnilted in any of the said Company's plantations, forts, factories or places of t'vAe within the limits aforesaid, where judicature cannot be executed for want of a Gcvernor and Council there, then in such case it shall and may be lawful for the chief Factor of that place and bis Council to transmit the party, together with the oft'ence, to such other plnnmtion, factory or fort where there shall be a Governor and Council, wlusre justice may be exec.Ued, or into this kingdom of England, as shall be thought most con- veniint, there to receive such punishment as the nature of his offence shall deserve: And MOKEOVER, Our will and pleasure is, and by these presents, for us, our heirs and succes- sors, wu no 1 " Mid grant unto the said Governor and Company, and their successors, free libertj ■ c-ise, in case they conceive it necessary, to send either ships of war, men or ammuni' •■ 1. . any their plantations, foits, factories or places of trade aforesaid, for the security ai . .>,.v;nce of the same, and to choose commanders and officers over them, and to give tiicm power and authority, by ccuniiiission under their cdmiiion seal, or other- wise, to contiinie or make peace or war with any prince or people whatsoever, that are not Christians, in any places where the said Company shall have any plantations, forts or factories, or adjacent thereunto, as shall be most for the advantage and benefit of the said Governor and Company, and of their trade: and also to right and recompense themselves upon the goods, estates or people of those parts, by whom the said Governor and Companv shall sustain any injury, loss or ilaniage, or upon any other people what- soever, that shall any wav, cimtrarv to the intent of these present*, interrupt, wrong or injure them in their said trade, within the said places, territories and limits granted by this Charier : Aiui that it shall and may be lawful to and for the said Governor and Com- pany, and their successors, from time to time, and at all times from henceforth, to er< ct and Inrld such castles, fortifications, forts, garrisons, colonies or plantations, towns or villages, in any parts or places within the limits and hounds granted hffori; in these presents unto the said Governor and Company, as they in their discretion shall tliiuk fit and requisite, and for the supply of such as shall be needful and convenient, to keep and be in ihe same, to send out of This kingdom, to the said castles, forts, I'oitificatious, garrisons, colonies, plantations, towns or villages, all kinds of cloihinu, provision of victuals, ammunition and itnplenients necessary for such purpose, paying the duties and customs for the same, as also to transport and carrv over such numlier of men, beinir willing thereunto, or not prohibited, as they shall think fit, iind also to govern them in such legal and reasonable manner as the said Governor and Company shall think beoii's Hay, or inhabit in any of the countries, islands or territories hereby granted to the said (Jovernorand Com|)any, without their leave and license iu that heliall fust had and obtained, or that shall contemn or disobey their orders, and send them to Enulaiul : and that all and every jiersoii or persons, being our subjects, any ways employed by the s.iid Governor and Company, within any the parts, ])laees and limits aforesaid, shall be liable unto and suffer such punishment for any offences by them committed in the parts aforesaid, as the President and Council for the said Governor and Coiii|,aiiy there shall think fit, and tlie merit of the ofl'ence shall require, as aforesaid ; and in case any person or persons being convicted and sentenced by the President and Council of the said Governor and Company, in the countries, lands or limits aluresaid, their factors 0.24 -Sess. 2. 3 r 3 or Appendix, No. 11. Votes to be regu- lated by quantity of stock. All lands, &c. afore- said to be under the government of said Compa'iy, who moy appoint Governors and other officers to preside witliin tlicir territories, and judge in nil causes, civil and criminal, nccording to the laws of England ; or criminals may be sent to Kngland'for trial. The Governor and Company may em- ploy, for the pro- tection of their trade and territory nrnu'd force, appoint conimandci-3, erect forts. &c. Authority given to tlic Governor and {'ompany to seize any of his Majesty's Hulijci'ts who ( witli- iiut leave of the Company) trade in their tcrVitoiy, and may send thein to Kngluiid. li* m m 1^: r ♦«♦ APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Mm ' |!: ! Appendix, No. 11, The Governor and Company may authoriae their Presidents, Agent*, and others to ad- miniiiter oaths in cerlnin fuses. All Admiralt and otlien his Majesty's oCcen and siil)- jeota, to be aidins •nd nasisting in tlio •Xfcution 01 the powers, Ice. granted by this Ctiarter. or agents there, for any offence by tliem done, shall upjieal from the same, that then p.iid in sucli ra*ii it shall and may lio lawful to and for the >aid President and Coiinuil, factors or agents, to seiie U|'on him or ihnm, and to carry him or tlieui home prisoiiera into England, to the said (lovernor and Company, there to receive such condii^n puuislinient as hi» caase sliall require, and the law of this nation nll)w of; and for the better discovery of abuses and injuries to be done unto tbe said (lovemor and (Company, or their sucoessora, by any servuiit by them to he employed in the said voyages and liUimations, it shall and may be lavvfid to and for the said Governor and Con.pany, and tneir respective President, Cliief Agent or Governor in the parts aforesaid, to examine u|K>n oath all factors, masters, pursere, siipercar^oiis, coniniBiiders of castles, forts, fortifienUons, plantations or colonies, or other persons, touching or conctinina; any muter or thine in whieli by law or iisaj^c an oath may be administered, so as the sa^d oat!., and the matter therein contained, be not repugnant, hut agreeable to the laws of I his realm : And we r.o hereby strailly charge and command all and singular our Admirals, Vice- Admirals, Justices, (flavors. Sheriffs, Constables, Huiliiis, and ail and singidar other our odicers, ministers, licf^e men and subjects whatsoever, to be aidmg, favouring, helping and assisting to tlic said Governor and Company, and to their succease',, and to then- deputies, officers, fartors, servants, assigns and ministers, and every oi em, in executing and enjoying the premises, as well on land as on sea, from time to lime, when any »f you shall thereunlo be required; any Stati;te, act, ordinance, proviso, proclamation or restramt heretot(>re had, m^de, set forth, ordained or (u-ovided, or any other matter, cause or thing whatsoever to the contrary ii< anywise notwithstandini;. In Witness whkheop we have caused these our Letters to be made Patent. Wrr-^iss oubsklf at Westminster, the second day of May, in the two-and- twentieili year uf our reign- By Writ of Privy Seal. Pigolt. I Enclof ure (B.) Grown Grant to the Hudson's Bay Company of the exclusive Trade with the Indians in ■certain parts of North America, for a further term of Twenty-one Years, and upoa the Surrender of a former Gi-ant. Victoria R. (l. s.) Victoria, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith. To all to whom these Presents shall come, greeting : Eneloaun) (B.) Whkreas, by an Act passed in the Sersion of Parliament liolden in the first and second year oi the reign of his hite Majesty King George the Fourth, intituled, " An Act for regu- lating the Fur rradp, and establishing a Criminal and Civil Jurisdiction within certain parts of North America." it was amongst other thirgs enacted, that from and after the passing of the raid Act, it should be lawful for his said Majesty, his heirs or successors, to make (irants, or give his or their Uoy.il License, under the ht^nd and scaI of one of his or their Principal Secretaries of Stale, to any -ody corporate or company, or person or persons, of or for the exclusive pivilege of trading witii the Indians in all such parts of North America as should be specified in any such Grants or Licenses respectively, not being part of the lands and territories theretofore i:n»nted to the d'overnor and Company of Adventurers of Enghuid trading to Hudson's Bay, and not being part of any of our Provinces in Nortli America, or of any l.inds or territr.rias belonging to the IFnited States of \merica, and that all such Grants an I Licenses Bhould be good, va'id and effectual for the purpose of securing to all such bodies cnrpornii'.oreompanios, or persons, the sole and exclusive privilege of trading with the Indians ill all such parts of Nortli America (except as thereinafter excepted) as should be sfwoified in such Grants or Licenses, any thing contained in any Act or Acts of Parliament, or any law to tlie contrary notwithstanding; and it was fiirther enacted, that no si ;h Grant or License made or iriven by bis said Majesty, his heirs or successors, of any such exclusive privileges of trading with the Indians in such parts ol North America as aforesaid, shoidd be made or given fir any longer period than 21 years, and that no rent should be required or demanded for or in respect of any s-icli (iiant or License r any privileges given thereby under the provistoiis of the said Act for the first period ' i\ years; and it was further enacted, that fron) ami alter ihe passing of the said Act, the Governor and Company of Adventurers trailing ti Hudson's Bay, und every body corporate and conipany and person to whom any such Grant or License should be made or given as aforesaid, should respec- tivelv keep accurate registers of all persons in their employ in any parts of North America, and should once in each vear return to the Principal Secretaries of State accurate dupli- cates of such register'!, and should also enter into such security lis should be required for the due execiitioti of all processes criiniiial and civil, as well iviiliin the territories ''".,,iiided within any such Grani, as within tiiose gianted by Chatter to the Governor and Company of Adventurers of Kngland trading to Hudson's Bay, and for the producing or deliviring into safe custody, lor the purpose of trial, all persons in their employ or acting iinilfr their authority, who should be charged with any criminal offence, and also for the due and faithful observanio of all such rules, regulations and stipulations as should be contained in aiy such Grant or License, either for gradually diminishing and ultimately preventing the sale |>t'n to the citizcnH and Rubjccts of ili^- two powers for the term often years from the date of the siirnature of that convention ; and it was therefore enacted, that nothing in the said Act Cdntained should be deei..ed or construed to authorise any body corporate, coripnny or person to whom his said Majesty nii>>lit, under tlie provisions of the said Ar' . mike or grant or ;^ve a License of excluHive trade with the Indians in such parts of Noiii.' America ns aforesaid, to claim or exercise any such exclusive trade within the limits s^^.ified in the said article, to the prejudice or exclusion of any citizens of the said United States of America who might be en<:ugud in the said trude ; with a proviso, that no British subject should tr.ide with the Indians within such limits without such Grunt or License as was by the said Act required : And whereas by an instrument under the hand and seal ..f the Ri<;lit honourable Earl Dathurst, then one of his said late Majesty's Secretaries of state, and dated the 01 h day of December 1821, aAer reciting thprein, us or to the effect aforesaid, and also reciting Uiat the said Governor and Company of Adveiiturrrs of Hngland trHdini; to Hudson's Bay, and certain assot'iations of persons trading under the name of "The North-v; st Conipuny of Montreal," had respectively extended the fur trade over many parts of North America which had not been befon; explored, and that the competition in the said trade had been found, for some years then past, to be productive of great inconvenience and loss, not only to the said Company and Associations, but to the suid ti ade in general, and also of great injury to the native Indians and of other persons his said Majesty's subjects; and that the said Governor and Company of Adventurers trading to Hudson's Bay ; and William M'Gillivray of Montreal, in the Province of Lower Canada, esquire; Simon Ai'Giilivray, of Suffolk-lane, in the city of London, merchant; und Edward Ellice, of Spring-gardens, in the county of Middleaox, esquire; had represented to his said Majesty that they had entered into iin agreement, on the 2(lth dr.y of iVI^rch last, fir putting an end to the suid competition, und caiTying on tiie said trade "for ?1 years, commencing with the outfit of 1821, and ending with the returns of the outfit of 1841, to be curried on in the name of the said Gov^irnnr and Company exclusively, end that the said Governor and Company, and William M'Gillivray, Simon M'Gillivray iind I'idward Ellice had humbly besouj^ht his said late Majesty to make a Grant and give his Royal License to them jointly of and lor the exclusive privilege of trading with the Indians in North America, under the restriotions and upon the terms and conditions specified in the said recited Act : his said late Majesty, being desirous of encouraging the said trade, and rfniedyinif the evils which had arisen from the competi- tion which had theretofore < xitted-tlierein, did give und grant his Royal License, under the hand and seal of one of his Principal Secretaries of >tate, to the said Governor and Com- pany, and William M'Ciillivray, Simon M'Gillivray and Edward E'lice, for the exclusive privilege of trading w'»h tlie Indians in all such parts of North America to the northward and to tilt; westward of the s.iid lands and territories belonging to the United States of America, as should not form part of any of his said Majesty's Provinces in North America, or of any lands or territories belonging to the said IJnited Stotes of America, or to any European (government, state or power ; and his said late Majesty '."d and seal of one of our Principal Secretaries of State, to the said Governor and Compr.ny, and their successors, for the exclusive privilege of trading with the Indians in all such parts of North America, to the northward and to the westward of the lands and territorii.'S belonging to the United States of America, as shall not form part of any of our provinces in North America, or of any lands or territories belonging to the said United States of America, or to any European government, state or power, but subject nevertheless as hereinafter men- tioned : And we do by these presents give, grant and secure to the said Governor and Company, and their successors, the sole and exclusive privilege, for the full period of -ii years from the date of this our Grant, of trading with the Indians in all such parts of North America as aforesaid (except as hereinafter mentioned^ : And we do lu'reby declare, that no rent shall be required or demanded for or in respect of this our Grant and License, or ary privileges given thereby, for the first four years of the said term of 21 years ; and we do hereby reserve to ourselves, our heirs and successors, for the remainder of the said term of 21 years, the yearly rent or sum of .'>«. to be paid by the said Govi;riU)r and Company, or their successors, on the first day of June in every year, into our Exchequer, on the account of us, our heirs and successors ; and we do hereby declare, that the said Governor and Com- pany, and their successors, shall, during the period of this our Grant and License, keep accurate registers of all persons in their employ in any parts of North America, and shall once in each year return to our Secretary of State accuiate duplicates of such registers ; and shall also enter into and give security to us, our heirs and successors, in the penal sum of 5,000/., for ensuring, as far as in them may lie, or as they can by their authority over the servants and persons in their employ, the due execution of all criminal and civil processes by the ofhct rs and persons legally en)powered to execute sueh processes within all the territories included in this our Grunt, and for the producing or delivering into custody for the purposes of trial all persons in their employ or .ncting under their auiliority within the said terriioncs who shall be charged with any criminal offence : And we do also hereby require, that the said Governor and Comiiany, and their succes^ois, shall, as soon as the same can be con- veniently (lone, make and submit for our consideration and approval such rules and regula- tions for the management and carrying on the said fur trade with the Indians, and tilt conduct of the persons employed by them therein, as may appear to i to be effectual for diminishing or preventing the sale or distribution of spirituous liquors to the Indians, and for piomotint, their moral and religious improvement: But we do liereoy declare, that nothing in this our Gfant contained shall be deemed or construed to authorize tiie tiaid Governor and Compiiny, or their successors, or any persons in their employ, to claim or exercise any trade with the Indians on the North-wesl coast of America to the westward of the Stony Moun- tains, to the prejudice or exclusion of any of the subjects of any foreign states, who, under or by force of any convention lor the time being hctween us and such foreign states respectively, maybe entitled to and shall be engaged in the .said trade : Provided never- theless, and we, do hereby declare our pleasure to be, that nothing herein contained sli:iil extend or be construed to prevent the establishment by i.-, our heirs or successors, vvithin the teriitories aforesaid, or any of ihem, of any colony ui colonies, province or provinces, or for annexing any ])art of the aforesaid territories to my existing l lony or colonies to us, in right of our Imjierial Crown, belonging, or U>v constituting any such form of civil government as to us may ,ieem meet, within any sjch colony or colonies, province or provinces : And wu do hereby reserve to us, our heirs and successors, full power and authoiity to revoke these presents, or any part thereof, in so lar as the same may embrace or extend to any of the territories aforesaid, which may hereafter be compriscu within uny colony or colonies, province or provinces as aforesaid : It being nevertheless hereby declared, that no British subjects other than and except the said Governor and Company, and their successors, and the persons authorized to carry on exclusive trade by them, shall trade with the Indians during the period of this our Grant within the limits aforesaid, or within that part thereof which shall not be comprised within any such colony or province aj aforesaid. Given at our Court at Buckingham Palace, 30th day of May 1838. By Her Majesty's command. (l. s.) (signed) Gkiielg. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANV. 417 _ No. 1. — Aj.pendiK.No. u. Coi'V of u LETTER from the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company to Lord Glenelg. No. 1. Letter from the My Lord, Iliul.oon'^ Bay House, London, 10 February 1837. TliK peace, order and tranquillity which have so succoBrfully been niaintninod by the Q^Vernor^f'tbe Hudson's Bay Company, during the li'st 15 years, tliroujihout their extensive terriloi;"!? and Hudion's Bay the adjoining In' • eountiien, since the piuxslng of the Act 1 & 2 Geo. 4, c. 66, have Company to hitherto niadu ' .lecessary to trouble your Lordship, or the department over vhicli you Lortl Glenelg, preside, with any ai)plication8 or representations relating to the country. ^'^ February 1837. The approaching termination, however, of the grant of exclusive trade to the Company within their limit- and the olher fur trudii:g districts (15 years of a term ui 21 having already cxi)irtd), and other circuii. stances and changes which have occurred in the situation of these couiitric.-*, make it my duty to bring ihe whole case under the consideration of iiis Majesty's Government, in order that their o|)inion may be ascertained with regard to the rem wal of the grant, and the fuilher measures that have already become necessary for the administration of justice, the police and government of the increasing population and establisliraents of this extensive part of his Alajesty'n dominions. Your Lordship is aware that the Hudson's Bay Company was incorporated under Charter of his Majesty Charles the Second, in the year 1670; and that that Charter conveyed to them the sole trade and commerce, togctlier with the lan'ls and territories upon the countries, coasts, &c., that were not actually pos essed by or gitmted to any British subjects, or pos- scsfcd by the subjects of any otiier Christian Prince or State, to be reckoned and rejiuted as one <)f the British phintatious or colonies in America cidled " Eupert's Land." One of the principal objects in the incorporation of this Company was the fur trade with the Inu. ins inhabiting the territories ceded to them. For many years prior to the conquest of Canadu, French subjects had penetrated by 'he St. Lawrence to the frontiers of Rupert's Land ; but no compel ition had occurred between the traders of the two countries within the territories of the IIudso:i's Bay Company previous to the cession of Canada to Great Britain. Subsequent to that period, the greater capital and activity of British subjects led to a competition, first on the frontier parts, then in the interior, and at last to the formation of a Company, combining all the individuals at tiiat time engaged in the trade, to the countries bordering on ".nd west of Lake Superior, under the firm of the North-west Company of Montreal. It is unnecessary to say more of the eager competition into which this association entered with the Hudson's Buy Company for the tratle of the Indian districts, or of the scenes of demoralization and destruction of life and j)roperty to which it led, than to refer your Lord- ship to the ample details on this revolting subject in the Colonial Department; to the agree- ments at hist entered into between the rival companies to put an end to them by the union of their interests in 1821 ; and to the Act of Parliament passed in the same year to give efl'ect to that union, and to prevent the possibility ol'the recurrence of competition, by enabling the Crown to grant to the jjarties interested a License for the exclusive trade, the only means of restraining violence and crime, and of maintaining order under the peculiar circumstances of the country and the case. The several parties to whom the license was granted made ar l)solute surrender of their interests in it, in pursuance of liu'tlier arrangements betwc icra, to the Hudson's Bay Company, in 1824. Encouraged by the pn)tection given to them by this license, the Hudson's Bay Company have gradually extended their establishments and trade, and taken the further measures for the improvement and civilization of the country and its inhabitants, whicli I shall have the honour of detailing for your Lordship's information. The result of these measures, and the growth and increasing population of the settlements in the interior, bring yearly additional uentands on the resources of the Company for the means of protection and administration. These demands will still further increase in future years ; and it becomes absolutely necessary either that an arrangement should be soon made for the extension of the License to the Com- pany '.hat some other means should be taken for the expenditure and government of these ^ .iblishmenta, in anticipation of the expiration of the present term, if a ditferent policy fshall a])pear advisable to his Majesty's Government. Before the union of the rival Companies in 1821, the trade on the north-west coast of America, from the Mexican frontiers to Behrin'f's Straits, was nearly or wholly enjoyed by American and Uussian subjects. Some cflForts liad been made, at enormous costs and sacri- fices by the North west Company, to compete with the Americans, the history of which is recorded in a popular work lately published by Mr. Washington Irving, xmder the title of " Astoria ;" but these eflorta were both costly and unsuccessful, and the North-west Com- pany were o:: the point of being compelled to abandon the trade. The Eus.-ian establishment at Norfolk Sound, and at other places on the coast, even so far south as th<' roast of California, and the Americ.m exiicdition subsequent to the peace from Boston, New York, and other parts of the United States, had obtained a monoimly of the coast trade. In the face of these disadvantages, the Hudson's Bay Company felt it their duty to atteni]>t to regain the trade, and to re-establish British influence in the (ujuntries adjoining the coast, and to the mouth of the river of Columbia, within the limits ol' the last convention entered into with the court of Russia ; and they have succeeded, after a severe and expcn- 0.114— Sess. 2. 3 G sive ^'!'l 'ill i \^\ I i iiM 1 ' 11 '•':'' i 41B AlM'RNDiX TO HKPORT FllOlM THR If- |..l ) Appriidix, No u. «ve ('oiii])etitu>ii, in I'htablisliing their ncttlemcnts, ami nbtmniii); 11 decided stipcriority, if ,— . not an exclusivu enjoyment of tlie triulc, tlw Jwiiericiins huvinj^ uiinuMt withdrawn from the coast. Ill tlic rmirse of the liint year they Imd occasion to nnpcal to his Majenty's Governinent for prolci'tioii and indcnniity Cor a serious act of ajrKrcMnion and violence on the part uf an armed Kiissian force on the const, whicii iniiieihMl their operations and occasiimed tlicni a loss lo llie extent of upwards of '2U,[HH) I. Tlie Hussian (lOverninent has hitlierto only con- Rcnted lo disuNow tlie act if its otliccr, and to jrive instniclions prohiliitiiif; further ohstrnn- tion to llie expeditions ol' the C'oinpiuiy within the trading; limits iijrreed upon in th<' con- vention ; and tlui ( oiiiimny now wait with the finnest reliance on the further efforts of the (io\crnn'icnt for ni indemnity for their };rcat loss. Beyoiiil the diHiculties arising from an active competition with the Americans, and the viol nt and oppic-sivc proceedings on the part of the Russians, the Conipuiiv have, had to con en 1 wit'i other serious ohstiicles, both on the coiu niurdeious attacks on imir nuniing-pariics aim csiuuiisnnienis, ana oruer nas only bi rc8t(rred mid jieace maintained by the eniploymei.t, at a great expense, of considerable on th( ir hunting-parties and cstublislinients, and order has only been ■ . - . - '.If'' force, and by the exercise, on the part ot their servar.ts, oi the utmost temper, patience and The C'l'iiipany now occupy the country between theKocky Mountains and the Pacific by six jieiinaiient estiiblishmeiits on the coasts, sixteen in the interior country, bcs:de» several migratory and hunting (Hirtics, and they maintain a marine of six armed vessels, one of them a 8team-\csBel, on the (oast. Their principal estalilishnicnt and depot for the trade of the coast and the interior is situateil !iO mile.i from the Pacific, on the northern i'.'.nks of the Coliinibia River, and called Vancouver, in honour of that celebrated navigator. In the neighbourhood they have large pasture and grain farms, aft'ording most abundantly every species of agricultural produce, and maintaining large herds of stock of every dct^criiition ; these have been gradually eBtiblished ; and it is the intention of the Comi)any still further, not only to augment and increase them, to establish an export trade in wool, tallow, hides and other agricultural pro- duce, but to encourage the settlement of their retired servants and other emigrants under their jirntcction. The soil, climate and other circumstances of the country arc as much if not more adapted to agricultural ])ursuils than any other spot in America, r exploring the coast o(' the Polar Sea. but in the last season the Council in the interior, under ibe sanction of, and by the advice of the Board over wliicli 1 preside, to anticipate tbi; intentions of Russia and the United States, have undertaken to fit out an expedition, composed of their own ofFcers and servants, at the sole cxiieiise of the Company, to complete the surveys left unfinished by Sir John P>anklin, Capti'.in licechey anil Captain Rack. The Company ontertiiin the most sanguine expectations tliot the result of this expedition will be the complete survey of the coast of tlie Polar Sea not hitherto visited by Kuropean na\igators, and that they will secure for lilngland the reputation of having effected tlii" work, and the otlier advantages anticipated from previous expeditions undertaken at such expense and risk of life to the nation. ^Viih a view to the formation of a large agricultural settlement whhiu the Company's territories, named in their Charter " Rupert's Land," the Hudson's Bay Company made a grant to the late Earl of Selkirk, in the year 1811, of a tract of country on the banks of the Red and As,()()0 Duills, of a mixed (;haracter and :i, that your Lordship will be further pleased to honour me with an audience ar- early a.; convenient, at which Mr. Simpson, who is now jireparing for his departure to Hudson's Bay via Canada, may attend. I have, &c. (signed) J. II. I'dly, Governor. II w m 1^1 Enclosure in No. \. Copy of a Letteb from George Simpson, Esq., to J. II. Pelli/, Esq. Sir, London, I February 1837. In obedience to your commands that I should report on the state of the Indian country and trade, both previous tc the year 1821 (when an Act of Parliament was passed, under which the Hudson's Bay Company has, since that time, by virtue of exclusive license, conducted the fur trade') and subsequently to that period, I now do myself the honour of laying before you a brief outline of the then and the present state of the fur trade. 0.*4— SesB. 2. 302 The I'.ncl. ill No. 1. m us-. hiMi AiO APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE A-.'pci VJ iidix, No. \ I . 'I'l'*' ' iidiii" country, wliicli prcvioiiH to the poKtinp nnd ;;rantinn of that Act tiiul Ltconm), _ was a scene of violence luul outraije, productive of injury to the native population, nn;l of the wornt con!«ciiuciiceH, amounting in very many instances to tlie lo«it ot life aninni; the whiter actively engiijrcd therein, and to a vaHtaacrifice of prop«>rt,y to the |>artiei* inicruiited, all ari!-in<; from the violent competition (hat exiitted among the tradorit, I have the ^iuti8f iction to xay. has, ever ninec that periiMl, hcjii in a state of the imwt pcrfe(!t tran- quillity, hencKcial an well to the Indian population an to tin narticH iutercsted and engaged in the trade. Previons to that period, an unrestricted Hiipply of spirituous liquor, then an important article of trade, led to the comniiHcion of crimes, to the injury of health, and lo a state of deniornlixation iiinong the native population truly lamentable. The measures since taken by the Council in the country, under the instructions of the Board of Dlroctiun in Kngland, to remedy those evils have been attended with the happiest results; drunkenness is now of very rare occurrence in any part of the country, »w\ (piite unknown throuahont the extended district situated to the northward of the Suskatchewaine and ('liurchill llivcrs, oecu|iied by the Cliipewyan, Heaver Indian, Cree, Vellow Knife, Iliire, Dog Rib, and other tribes throughout the munerously inhabited and widely extended iilain country to the southward of Suskutchewainc ; in the country situated between the locky Mount.'iins and the shores of the Pacific, watered by the Columbia River and its tributaries; in the country known by the name of New Caledonia, situated ijland, to the northward of the Columbia liivcr ; ond among the Chippewa tribes on . .le shores and interior countrv of Lukes Su[)crior and Huron ; the introduction and use ot spirituous and other intiixicating liquors having been strictly prohibited, except in very rare cases for medicinal ])urposeH. The first introduction of this measure was so unpopular among the natives a» to endanger the safety of the trading establishments, rendering it necessary to maintain a large force for their protection, at a heavy expense; and it was only by compensating them for the loss of this baneful indulgence by large gratuities, consisting of jjresents of British manufacture, that they became reconciled to the privation. In other parts of the country, where it could not, in safety to the white population, be entirely prohibited, tlie use of it is now gradually diminishing, so as at thi.^ time to be no longer an evil ; and in no part of the countries through which the Hudson's Bay Company's operation extend are snirituous or intoxicating liquors of any description sold to Indians, or used as a medium of barter or trade. But so inseparable is drunkenness or the abuse of spirituous liquors front opposition in the Indian trade, that on the north-west c(iast, whore we have to contend with the Americans am'. Russians, and even on the banks of the iSt. Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers, which are exposed to competition in trade, and wdiere the Indians are partially civilized, 1 am sorry to say our utmost eft'orts to check it have been altogether unavailing. A confirmation of these statements is to be seen by reference to the cxportations of spirituous liquors to Hudson's Bay, which, since the year 1821, do not exceed on the average 43 puncheons of rum annually for the supply of the whide country situated to the eastward of the Rocky Moii.ii.iins, comprised in the license of trade granted to the Company, as well as the Company's territories, the population of which, including servants, may be estimated at 120,000 souls, no sjiirituous liquors having up to this period been distilled in the country. During the competition in trade previous to the year 1821 (when the exclusive manage- ment fell into the hands of the Iliulson's Bay Company), it was found impossible to take any effectual measure towards the civilization or moral and religious improvement of the native poiinlation. Since that period the Company have established two Protestant mis- sions, under the nianngement of their chaplains, at Red River settlement, where there are likewise two (Jatliolic missions anji 13 schools. In this seitlement there are resident several thousand Indians and half-breeds, drawn together from all parts of the country, with a view to their civilization and moral and reli- gious improvement. These people have abandoned the chase, and now devote themselves to agricultural pursuits, and it is gratifying to be enabled to say that the zealous endeavours of our missionaries have been most successful. The Hudson's Bay Conij)any have likewise established missions and schools at several of their principal depots or posts on the Columbia River, west side of the Rocky Mountains, under the management of another of their cha]>lains ; and at the Red River and Columbia schools Indian children are educated belonging to many of the distant tribes, who, after attaining the ago of manhood, are allowed tlie option of returning to their homes, becoming agriculturists at Red River settlement, or entering into the Company's service. We are using our utmost endeavours in every other part of the country, where the climate and soil admit of it, to collect the Indians into villages, and direct their attention to agriculture, as the first step towards civilization. This operation is, however, attended with much diffi- culty, from their erratic habits, and the scanty and precarious subsistence afforded by the chase, which prevents their keeping together in considerable numbers, and applying them- selves to husbandry and the pniviiits of civilised life, and compels them to separate into small jiarties of single families, luid to wander about in search ot food, under circumstances where it is impnsible for the missionary to follow them. I can say, without fear of contradiction, from my intimate knowledge of the country and natives, and of the mode in which the business was conducted, both previous and subsequent to the period since which the exclusive trade has been in the hands of the Company, having held the situation I now have the honour of filling for many years, during which I have been SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 491 bcpn in conntunt rdiimuinicatloii with tin- (lift'prcnt lril)t>« !iilii(bitlii)( tlicnc cxtcnKivo coun- Aimeiulix. No. 11. tri< and I ooy it with |M>ciiliur Muiliil'uctii)ii, thiit their ('DiKlitlon \h much aiiu'liorateil. — — Wncn conif>otition in trndo cxiHtctl, the cni^ounif^tMiient iittordud to th<* Indianx to make lar^o ('(illcctionn ot' nkiiis led to tlio dcgtruction of th(t fiir-hrnrin({ iiiiiinikiit of all n|(cN and M'xcH, Hiid lit till Hoiuoni*. If ihii HyHtciii hiul bcon ciintinufd inuc-li longer, thoite nniniuU, wlii'^ii wci'R rnpiilly dccreaaini^ in niiniherR, would have been iilinottt (entirely i>xtir|iated. Inxtiad of exhuuNting tho country, wo now uhc every ineaiia in our power to uroaervc it, by withdrawing; our trailing iK)HtH, and the Indiand uttaehed to them, for a time ironi such parti an hiive been ini)M)veriHhe(l, ho ua to enable them to reeruit ; und by diaooiiraginf; himting during the HeiixonM when the fenialcH are bearing and rearing their young, the animalH arc now liceoniing nnmcrou*. The cniiiloyniont we ntford at thoxo Heasonm to many of the Indiuno, whereby they are brougiit into frequent eomnuinieatioii and intercourse with our ofticerK and dervnnts, tendn towanJH their gradual civitiitaticm and improvement; und we find our own intcrcsta promoted by an equitable und liberal aytttem ot° trade and ninnngement. Our r(is]icct that we shall soon be able to establish important branches of export trade from thence in the articles of wool, tallow, hides, tobacco, and grain of various kinds. 1 have also the satisfaction to say, that the native population are beginning to profit by uur example, as many, formerly dependent on hunting and iishing, now maintain themselves by the ))roduce of the soil. The country situated between the northern bank of the t^ohimbia River, which empties itself into the I'acifio, in hit. 46" 20'', and the southern bank of Fra'.er's River, which empties itself into the (lulf of Georgia, in lat. -ih", is remarkable for the salubrity of its cliniati" and excellence of its soil, and possesses, within the Straits of De Fuea, some of the finest har- bours in the world, beiig protetted ironi the weight of thePacitic by Vancouver's and other island.-'. To the southward of the Straits of I )e Fuea, situated in lat. 48" ."57'', there is no good harbour nearer than the Bay of St. Francisco, in lat. .17" 48", as the broad siiifting bar oflP the mouth of the Columbia, and the tortuous channel through it, renders the entrance of that river a very dangerous navigation even to vessels of small draught of water. The j)ossession of that country to (irKl, cm'Ii kiiiom;; tliitt miiiiiII iicipulutiiiii, llnit it wikit llii'ii I're- "" • i|ii('iitly tin' HCt'H" III' IiIoimIkIii'iI, ruhlicrv ninl rinl ; iiml in oiui of tliiiHt^ rintH, in tlic yi>%r IHin, V3 |H nuMt »niiAl)li> iind bciu'volciit rhnriu'tcr. '1 ]w \<\f*-'\Ujt* lit' Iruminillitv, Imwcvcr, iinnimliiitnly fnllowpd thu ci'Mwitinn of tliiit iMiile»t, pt'iu't'fiil initiMtry Imvin^; nMniii-d in tlir i«>ttli'nirnt rvrr Kiiirc, iiiiil olfciircK n few u- niri'ly to cull for iiiii^ir|iort till) civil |M>wt'r, should lio uHtuhlixhvd there without delay. I have, &o, (sij^ncd) Oeo. Simpion. — No. 2. I i No. a. IiClt>r from flip I'liilcr-Si'iri'liirT of Stiite fur tin' ('iiloiiii''< to Deni't I.e Mnrrhniit, K«(|. ■2H Kebninry IH.'I7. Copy of a BETTER trnm the rinler-Seeietitry of State for the Colonies to Penis t.e Marrhant, {\m[. Sir, Downinfj-ittreet, 28 February 1S37. I AM directed liv Tiord Glenclij to transmit to you herewith ii letter iiddrcHsjoiI to hii fjord- ^hip by the Governor of the lliid-idii's Hay ("uni|mny, deseriliinix the jire^cnt Htatc of the ('iiin|iiinyV eHfnhlishinent in North Ainerieii, iiml calling his riordtihi|i'!' nttenti mi to the ap|iriiiichi.iL: termination of the ( hiirter, j.'rantini{ them theeselii-'ive rij;lit of triulin;^ within their territories. I iim to rpf|no8t that you will bring thin letter before the Lordu of the Cotnmittee of the I'rivv ('(luncil fir Trade, and m^ive their i,irdrr till' ('. lonipn, 2 .FiiiiL' lM:t7. (,'orv of a LpyrTKR from Denis Le Afarcliaiif, K:*!!., to the IJnder-Seeretary of State for the Colonie!<. Office of Coininiltee of I'rivy Council fi)r Trade, Sir, Whitehall, 2 .June 18:17. I HAVE laid before the Lords of the Coininittee of I'rivy Council for Trade your lettt'r of the 2Hili Fchriiiiry last, with its enclosures, respcetiiiLC the Hudson's Hay Coiupany, and 1 am directed by their Lordships to reipiest tliiit you will inform Lord tilcnelf;, liiat iil'tcr iin attentive consideration ol' the facts s'ated in the above-mentioned enclosures, and of such additional information as their Ljinlships have been able to olitaiii on t!ie subject, they have arrived at the conclusion that it is desirable that the application of the ("ompiiny for a renewal of the exclusive license to trade in those parts of North .\merica beyond the limits of their C'liarter, wbi(!li they at present enjoy, nhould be favourably enturtainiil by his Majesty's (Tovcrnment, with a view to their extension for a dcKnito term of years nfter the present licenae shall have evpired. The proceedin;;s of the Company of late years appear to their Lordships to have been distini^uished f^cncrally by a liberal and enlightened policy; and the peculiar nature of the fur trade seems to justil'y.and even to recoramend, the adop- tion of tne principle of conferring exclusive privileges upon a great body engaged in it, how- ever objectionable such a principle appears with reference to commercial attitirs generally. It is with reference to these particular circumstances that their Lordships have satisfied themselves that it would not be safe to withdraw from the Company the powers which they now exercise. Their Lordships have only further to observe, that as to any pecuniary conditions being attached to the renewal of the license under the 1 & 2 Geo. 4, c. 66, that is a ]x)int which they presume will be made the subject of communication between Lord Glenelg and the (yominissioners of Woods and Forests. They may, however, remark that it would be very unadvisable, in tlieir opinion, to adopt any provisions upon this subject which might tend to (^ramp the operations of the ('ompany, or (ilace them in unfair competition with other traders in fur. I am, &c. (signed) Denis Le Marcluitit. SKT.ECT roMMITIER ON 1HK MITPSON'S HAY COMPANY. m nt it wiw lliitii I're- »<(■ rli)tii, ill till' yctr r whm Mr. ^ciiiplc, inn, uiul lit' llio miMt lltioil of liial roiilunt, u'CK 'o (V\v u" rartsiy io litr);c, uii'l incriMi- , tiiiit till' tiim.' liM ili'ly to till' gooil-will iM'iirity III' livr;< uml I'D, with III! I'tlioiciit I'lay. lavo, Ace. Oeit. Simpion. ic Colunit's to aH Frhrimry 1837. liiri'nnoil to ills Lord- jiri':*('nt utiitp lit' the lii|i'x iittciiti 111 to t'lc ,j;lit of triuliiii; within the Committpo of the ■cl (iliMii'l^' willi llioir ' ipiiliratioii riiiiili- by III ion of their {ircacnt I have, Ike. t'll) ./. Sti'jilii'n. secretary of State for ('ouncil fiir Trade, ih;i7. ,r Trailn your letter of Hay Coiii|Hiiiy, and I IrlciU'l};, that al'tur ;in cloHiiros, and nt' .-mch lie subject, tluv have f the Comjiaiiy t'ur a riea bcyonil the limits ly enturtaini-d by his mil of years »tter the of late yearn appear il eiilif^htened policy; eiroramund, the adop- ly onf^affed in it, how- (;ial atfiiirs generally, dsliips have wiiistied le [lowers which they liary conditions being that is a point which ird Glenelg and the hat it would be very t whieh might tend to ion with other traders tenii Le Marchant. — No. 4.-- C«)i*r of a I.Kri'EK from the Uniler-Seerotary of 8utc for tlii! Colonic* to Drnil Lr Murvhunt, l'lii(|. AppenJii, No. II. No. 4. 1.1'tler I'rn.ii ihu Culoniua to Denia 1,0 Mari'liHiit, Ei(|. 3A July 1H37. Sir, Downiiig-Ht.ect. 2.') July lh.'17 I A.Mdireet.d by LoriRJIenelu to ay> ' ' " "' under a Cli.irler urunted in purnuiinee of the Act I \ 2 (leo. 4, c. 66. Lord (ileiii'hj (lenires uie to ex|ireBH IiIh eoiieurreiiee in the opinion of the LonU of the Cuiiiuiitlee of rrivy Council for I rade as to the e.xpjdicney of reviving thin Charter; but ho direets me to observe, !''■'• whenever that Bte|) oliall be tuken it will be indispeiiMtbli! tu intriidiiee into the new Cnarter such eoiiilitioriH as may eniilile llcr Majesty to Krant, I'or the purpose of selllemeiit or eoloni/.ation, a ly i.f the lauds roinprised in it, and with that \iew bin Lordfhip ihiiikii that u power should be reserved even d' establishing new colonies or provinces within the limits eoinpri..<('d in the ( barter. 'Willi whal'ver eonlidence the sterility of a great part of that extensive |Mirtion ol the globe, and its untilncss to sustain any eon- •iderable popniution, may have hithcito been asserted, liord (ilcneig thinks that siieh state- meiiti* cannot be assumed as iiicniitrovertible ; and as the eountry is very iinpcrl'eeily known, etpeeially in that part of it which borders on the elinin of the lakes, his (iordship is disposed to regard llicm with distrust. 1 iim, ther'-l'ore, to request that you will iiiforni ine, whether in their negotiations with the ( ompany, the Lords of the Cominitteu of I'rivy Council for Trade have adverted to any stipulation for the purposes above mentioned, and if not, I nm to luggest, that belure any further titeps are taken, it would Ik; desirable to ascertain whether the Ciiinpuny would object to receive an extension of their Charter at the : renent time, introducing into it ituch a reservation as has been mentioned, of the right of eat. >lii)hing now colonies, and of the right of withdrawing from the control and authority of the Company any of the lands couipriMcd in isueh future uolonieo. 1 am, &c. (Rigncd) J, Stephen, No. 5. Lottor from J. D Hume, Esq. totlieUndor-Secre- — No. 5. — Copy of a LliiTTIiU from J. D. Hume, Esq., to the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. Office of Committee of Privy Council for Trade, Sir, Whitehall, 7 August 18.37. Yoiu letter of the 2.5th ultiino, relative to the privileges of the Hudson's Bay (-o npany, has bei'n laid before tlic Lords of the Committee of I rivy Council for Trade, and their Lord- shijis, after having adverted to your former letter of the 28th of February lost on the same tnry of State fortbe flubjeet, and the answer thereio of the 2d .lune, to which you now refer, have directed inc ♦© Colonies, reipicst that you will inform Lonl (Jleneig that no negotiation has lieen entered into with this " August 1 • . department by the Hudson's Bay Company for a renewal of their license; nor has any measure been taken in the imitter under their Lordships' directions, except the transmission of the letter of the 2d of June before mentioned. I am, however, to state to vou, for the information of Lord ( ilenelg, that the Lords of this Coiniiiittee are ready, if so desired by him, to confer with the Company upon this subject: at the same time, I am to observe, that, as the peculiar point for discussion relates to coloni- zation, it may bo desirable that Lord Glonelg ahouhl, in the first instance, apprize the Com- pany of his views upon that subject. 1 an., iSic. (signed) ./. D. Hume. — No. fi. — Copy of a LETTER from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to /. D. Humf, Esq. Mr, Downingstreet, 1.5 August 18.37. No. 6. Havixo laid before Lord Glenelg your letterof the 7th instant, 1 am directed to acquaint Letter from the you, ill answer, that as the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade have already Under-Secretary undergone the labour of investigating the (|iieption of the propriety of renewing the Ch.irtcr »' State for f lie of the Hudson's Bav Company, and have formed an opinion on that subject, in which Lord V°i^"n'' *°, v ulenelg coincules, it apjiears to his Ijordshi]) tliat the ncgotiatiun witli the Lonipuny, as to lo August 1837. the terms of their Charter, would be condutted more advantageou-lv for the public interest by their Lordships than by Lord Glenelg ; and in this conehision he is ccmfirniod by the considenition, that tlic question is important chiefly in its bearing on the commercial iuterests of the empire at large. 0.24— Sess. 2. 304 'With %: • \i m 'Ml V !)[■ * 494 APPENDIX TO REPOIIT FROM THE "' il Appendix, No. It. With regard to the fiue«tion of colonization, Lord Glenclg will of course explain his views to till" ( ,'oinj)any, if their Lordship should, on further reflection, think that course expedient. But, as he is apprehensive of some danger of producing misconceptions by multiplying the channels of official communication with that body, and as his views on the subject of colonizing the territory in question lie within a very narrow compass, it a[)pL'ars to Lord Gienelg timt they may be perhaps more conveniently stated to the (Jompany by the Board of Trade than by himself. Lord Glcnelg is of opinion that the public interest may not improbably require the erection of some part of the territory comprised in the Company's Charter into one or more colonies, independent of and distinct from either Upper or I^Dwer Canada. The limits of any such colonies must, for the present, be matter of conjecture and surmise; but Lord Glcnelg thinks that the proposed new Charter should contain an express condition, providing that nothing to be therein contained should ])revent Her Majesty, Her heirs and successors, from establishing any such colonics within the territories in quwtion, and that, from the time of their being so established, all the rights of the Company withiii the limits of any such colony s'.iould cease. I am, &c. (signed) J. Stephen. No. 7. Letter from the Governor of the Hudaon's Bay Company to lord Olenelg, 9 Soptcmbtr 1837, — No. 7. — (Private.) Copy of a LETTER from the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company to liord Glenehj My Lord, Hudson's Bay House, 9 September 1837. It is of io nmch importance to the Hudson's Bay Company to know the dccisicm of Her Maje. ty's Government on the subject of the renewal of the Grant of that part of the North- west district of America which is not witl>'n the Com]>any'8 territories, and as the measures which the Company will feel it right to pursue will depend on that decision, and ought to be communicated to their chief in the Columbia by the ship that is now preparing to go to the Pacific, and will sail in the course of the next month, I trust will be a sufficient apoloTy for my now requesting that you will favour me with a communication on this subject, or, if there is any difficulty, with an audience, and much oblige, &c. (signed) J. H. Pclty. •No. 8.— ! ii^iP'* No. 8. Letter from the I'nder-Seereinry of Stale for the Coloi|iex to the Gov -rnor of the Hudson'" Hny Comimtiv, 10 Sept.'lHfir. No. ». Niilp from the fioverncr of the Hudson's BayCom- |)Hny to the Under- .Secrctiiry of Stnto Uir Wit: Colonlns, •Jii Ofilojier \vn-i. Copy of a LETTER from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to the Governor of the Hudson's Bay (Company. Sir, Downing-street, 19 September 18.37. I AM directed by Lord Glcnelg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter, marked " Private," if the 9th instant His Lordship direct* me to acquaint you in answer, that Her Majesty's Government do not object to the renewal of the Charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, or to the c\tension of it to the territory to which your letter refers. But it is proposed to stipulate, as the con- dition of any such grant, that it should not prevent the erection within the limits of the Charter of any new colonics or provinces which Her Majesty may be disposed to c.-italilish there ; and that if any such province or colony should be so established, the Charter .■iliniild theiiceforth ceivse *o be in force, so far as r^^,lects the territories which may be einbr ced within the limits oi" the new colony. Lord Glenclg would be happy to know how far it wnnki be in the jiower of the Comjiany to accept the renewal of the Charter on those terms. I have, &c. (signed) ./" Stephen. — No. 9. — Copy of a NOTE from the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Comj any to the Under- Secretary of State for the Colonies. Hudson's Bay House, 2;> October 1837. Mr. Pelly presents his compliment.^ to Mr. Stephen, and sends herewith a draft lorn Grant to the Hudson's Bay Ciinpany of exclusive trade with the Indians in certain [larts of North America, drawn in conformity with the original one, and of the Act passed in the second year of hi: late Majesty Geo. 4, and providing for the conditions contained in Mr. Stephen's letter to hirr;. In it is likewise extended the reservation of trade to the snbic<'ts of «n// Fori>igri State, who, under or by force of any convention between Great Britain and such Foreign State, may be entitled and shall \w, cnjraged in said trade. This in the old grant wn^ reserve! exclusively for the subjects of the United States ; since which a convention ha:' been entered into with the Emperor of Russia. Mr. P. has therefore had it drawn to include any 8C explain his views at course expailient. by multiplying tlie I on the subject of it appears to Lord iil)nny by the Board ie intere.it may not d in the Comjjany's icr Upper or Lower ;cr of conjecture and il uont'iiu an express t Her Majesty, Her ritorics in question, the Company within I am d) J. Stephen. any to Lord Glendij, J September 1837. r the decision of Her at part of the North- , and as the measures aion, and ought to be rc])aring to go to the sufficient apology for Is subject, or, if there d) J. H. PeUy. es to the Governor of 9 September 1837. marked " Private," sty's Government do or to the c\ tension stipulate, as the con- hin the limits of the lisposed to e.-'tahlish ], the Charter .•'hould h may be embr cod now how far it woidd on those terms. have, &c. Ml) ./• Stejihen. any to the Under- i.2.> October 1837. erewith a draft for a Ills in certain parts ot Ai-t ]iass(' il it drawn to include any SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 425 iini/ Foreign State, which alteration he submits would be advisable to adopt. Should Mr. S. Appendix, No.Tl. wish to see Mr. P. on the subject, he will, after next week, attend any appointment. — — No. 10. — Coi'Y of u NOTE from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to the Governor of the Hudson's IJay Company. Downing-street, 8 November 1837. ]VIk. Stki'IIEN presents Lis compliments to Mr. Pelly, and, with reference to his note of the 25th ultimo, is directed by Lord Glenelg to request that Mr. Pclly will be good enough to furnish his Lordship with a copy of the Grant of exclusive trade with the Indians of North America, which was made to the Hudson's Bay Company in the year 1821. No. 10. Note from Ihe Under-Secretary bf State for the Colo- nies to the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, 8 November 188r. — No. 11. — No. 11. Copy of a NOTE from the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company to the Under- Note from the Secretary of State for the Colonies. S°Y'"?'f/ *^ ^ Hudson's Bay Oom> pany to the Under- Hudson's Bay House, 10 November 1837. Secretary of State Mr. Pelly presents his compliments to Mr. Stephen ; begs to acknowledge his note of for tie Colonies, tlie 8th instant, and to enclose for ray Lord Glenelg a copy of the Grant of exclusive trade ^° November iser. with the Indians of North America, made to the Hudson's Bay Company 5th December 1821. Enclosure in No. 11. GEORGE R. (L.S.) George the Fourth, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland King, Defender of the Faitli. To all to whom these Presents shall come, greeting : Whereas an Act passed in the second year of our reign, intituled, " An Act for regulating the Fur Trade, and for establishing a Criminal and Civil Jurisdiction within certain parts of North America ;" wherein it is amongst other things enacted, that from and after the passing of the said Act, it should be lawful for us, our heirs or successors; to make Grants or give our' Royal License, imder the hand and seal of one of our Principal Secretarie.s of State, to any body corpoiate or company, or person or persons, of or for the exclusive privilege of trading with the Indians in all such parts of North America as should be specified in any such Grants or Licenses respectively, not beinu part of the lands or territories heretofore granted to the Governor and Company of Adventurers of England trading to Hudson's Bay, and not being jiart of any of our provinces in North America, or of any lands or territories belonging to the United States of America, and that all such Grants and Licenses should be good, valid and efl'ectual, \'ov the ]iur]iose of securing to all such bodies corporate, or companies, or per- sons, the si.lc and exclusive jirivilege of trading with the Indians, in all such parts of North Anierica < except as thereinafter excejited) as should be specified in such Grants or Licenses, !iny thing > ontiiincd in any Act or Acts of Parliament, or any law to the contrary notwith- standing ; a ul it was in the said Act further enacted, that no such Grant or License made or given by 'is, our heirs or successors, of any such exclusive privileges of trading with the Indians in si,;.ii parts of North America as al'orcsiiid should be made or given for any longer period than 21 years, and that no rent should be required or dcniandc 1 i'or or in re- spect of any such Grantor Liciiisc, or any privileges given thereby, under the provisions of the said Act, for the first period of IM ycnrs; and it was further enacted, that from and after the pai-siiig of the said Act, the Grveninr and Company of Adventurers of England trading to Hudson's Bay, and every body corporate and cc m| any and person, to whom every .-uch Grant or License should be niade or given as al'oresairoviiices in North America, or of any lands or territories belonging to the saiil United States of Ainericn, or to any European government, state or jiower ; and wo do by these lu'caents give, gnmt and secure to the said (iovernor and Company, and William M'Ciillivray, Siniou M'(»illivray and Edward Ellice jointly, the sole and exclusive privilege, for the full period of 21 years from the dat<» of this our Grant, of trading with the Indent's ,1 all such parts of North America as aforesaid (except as thereinafter excepted); a."l v • do hereliy declare that no rent shall be required or demanded for or in respectof this our i.i."mt and License, or any jn-ivileges given thereby, for the said period of 21 years, but that the said Governor luid Company, and the said William M'Gillivray, Simon M'Ciillivray and Edward Ellice shall, during the period of this our Grant and License, kee]) accurate registers of all jiersons in their emjdoy in any parts of North America, and shall once in each year return to our Secretary of State accurate duplicates of such registers, aiienal sum of ;),0()0/. for ensuring, as far as in them may lie, the due execution «f all criminal proces.-ics, and of any civil ])rocoss in any suit where the matter in dispute shall exceed '?0()/., by the officers and persons legally empowcird tn execute such proces.ses within all the territories included in this iir Grant, and for the pm- diicing and delivering into safe custody, for purposes of trial, any persons in their emiiloy, or acting under their authority within the said territories, who may be charged with any criminal offence. And we do also hereby require, that the said Governor and Company, and William M'tiillivray, Simon M'Ciillivray and Edward Ellice ,-hall, as .soon as the same can be con- veniently (lone, make and submit for our consideration ind ajiproval such rules anil regula- tions for the management and carrying on the said fur trade with the Indians, and the con- duet of the [lersons employed by them therein, as may ap])ear to us to be ertectuid fur gr.adiijilly dimini.'^hing or ultimately preventing the sale or distrilmtion of sjiirituous li(|uars to the Indians, and for jn-omoti'ig their mora' and religious iiniirovement And we do hereby declare, that nothing in this our Grant coiitaiiied shall be deemed or construed to authorise the said Governor and Company, or William M'GiHivr;iy. Simon M'Ciillivray and Kdward I'.llicc, or any person in their employ, to claim or exercise any trade with llie Indians on the noith-west coast of America to tho westward of the Stony Mountains, to the prejudice or exclusion of any citizens of the Uiiiteom|iany, and the said William M'(jillivray, Simon M'Gillivray ami Edward J'^llice, and tho jiersons authorised to carry on exclusive trade by tlicin SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 427 them on Grant, shall trade with the Indians within such limits during the period of this Appen dix, N o. it, our (irant. Given lit our Court at Cnrltoii-house the 5th day of December 1821, in the second year of our reign. By His Majesty's command. (l. 8.) Bathm^t. No. 12. — ii";laiid tnidinjf into Coi'Y of a LETTER from the Secretary of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade to the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company. Sir, Office of Committee of Privy Coimcil for Trade. Whitehall, 20 .Tanuarv 1«38. I AM directed by the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Irade to inform you, that they have received from Lord (tlenelp your application on behalf of the Hudson's Bay Company for a renewal of the exclusive right of tradinj^ granted to the Company by the Royiil License dated the 6th of December 1821, with the view of leaving the arrangement of the terms of such renewal to the determination of this Board. Their I.iord?hips not feeling themselves iiualificd, without further information than is contained in the papers transmitted to them from the Colonial Office, to settle this matter satisfactorily, I am directed to request that you will favour this Board with some account of the past and present state of the Company, with reference to its capital, and the divi- dends jinid thereon, as well as any other circumstances that may assist the Board in coming to a decision upon the terms of the jiroposed License. I am, &c. (signed) Denis Le Marchant. No. 12. Letter from the Secretary of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade to the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, 20 January 1838. ■W' ;l — No. 13. — Coi'Y of a LETTER from the Governor of tiic Hudson's Bay Comjjany to the Lords of the Coin'.ittco of Privy Council for Trade. My Lords, Hudson's Bay House, 7 February 1838. I IIAVK the honour to acknowledge a letter addressed to me by your Lordships' direction, through Mr. Le Marchant, under date 20th ult., wherein you inform me that you have received from Ijord Glenelg my application on behalf of the Hudson's Bay Company for a renewal of the exclusive right of trade granted to the Company by the Royal License dated 6th December 1821, with the view of leaving the arrangement of the terms of such renewal to the determinution of your Board, and that your Lordships, not feeling qualified without fiirther information than is contained in the jmpers transmitted to you from the Coloniid Ofhce to settle the matter sati.sfactorily, reiiuest that I should furnish some account of the past and present state of the Company, with referenc"' to its capital, and the dividentls paid tliciTon, as well as any other circunistances that may assist the Board in coming to a deci- sion on the tenns of the ])rojMised License. In accordance with that request, I now beg to lay before you the following particulars, which I have no doubt will satisfy you that the Hndson's Bay Company have every reason Confidently to expect that Her Majesty's Government will be pleased to grant them a renewal of the License of exclusive trade of the country denominated " Indian Territories,'" beyond the limits of the Company's ('barter, without any rent or pecuniary consideration being required for the same, nor subject to any other condition than that proposed by the accompanying letter fr.ini the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The Hudson's Bay Comjiany was incorporated in the year 1670, under a Royal Charter of Charles the Second, which granted them certain ten-itories in North America described ii' •' t Charter, together witli exclusive privileges of trade, &c. &c. Between the years Itii and 1690, a period of 20 years, the profits .nppear to have been very large, a.s, not- withstanding losses sustained by the capture of the Company's establishments by the French in the years 1682 to 1688, amounting to 118,014 /., they were enabled to make a jiayment to the proprietors in 1684 of 50 per cent.; another j.-iyinent in 1688 of 50 per cent. : and of a further payment in 1689 of 25 per cent. In 16!)(( the stock was trebled witliaut any call being made, besides aflording a payment to the proj)rietors of 25 ]ier cent, on the increased or newly created stock: in the years 1692, 1694, 1696 and 1697, the Company incurred lo.-s and damage to the amount of 97,500/., by other captures of their establishments by the French. These losses a|ij)ear to have rendeied it necessary for the ('ompany to borrow monev, on which tlicy paid six per cent, interest; they were enabled, nevertheless, in 1720, again to treble their capital stock, with only a call of 10 per cent, on the proprietors, and, notwith- standing another heavy loss sustained, by the capture of their establishments by the French under La Perouse, in 1782, they appear to have been enabled to pay dividends of from 5 to 12 i)er cent., averaging nine per cent., and showing, as nearly aa I am able to judge from 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 H 2 the : ;. ) No. 13, Letter from the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany to the Lords of tfie Committee nf Privy Council tor Trade, 7 February 1838. m m n 438 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 1 1 Appandlt, No. 1 1. tlic defective utate of the books during the past century, ]vrotit8 on the originally subscribed — ■• capital stock actually jiaid up of between 60 and 70 per cent, per annum from the year 1690 to 1800. Up to this ])eriod the Hudson's Bay Comnany had no great cause for complaint of inter- ference with their inland trade, and if they had been hift unmolested, or been protected in the undisturbed possession of it, and of the rights and privileges vesteil in tliom by their Charter, they wouU! in all probability have continued in the enjoyment of the advantages they were then deriving from their labours' and exertions in those remote and little fre- quented wilds. But about that period their rights of territory and trade were invaded by rival traders, which led to animosities, fbuds and breaches of the i)eace, extending to the loss of lives, and considerable destruction of property, injurious to the native Indians, by reason of tiie imrc-itricted use of sinrituous liquors un('. other den-oralising influence, consequent on oppo- Hition, and so |)rejudicial to the interests of the Hudson's Bay Company, that between 1800 and 1821, a period of 22 years, their dividends were, for the first cvrhi years, reduced to four per cent. ; during the next six years they could pay no dividend at all; and for the remaining eight years they could only ]my four per cent. During a long succession of years, while this destructive contest existed, very frequent applications for i)rotection and redress were made l»y the Hudson's Bay Company to his Majesty's Government, as may be seen by reference to the records of the Colonial OHice, but without avail, and scenes of bloodshed, robbery, and demoralisation, revolting to humanity, were allowed to pass without any effeetual measures being taken to jjunish or pre-.ent them, although the Hudson's Bay Company had every claim on Government ti» support 'iicm in their just rights of territory and trade. -Vt lengl'.i, in the year 1821, when the violence of the contest had nearly exhausted the means of both ]>arties, an arrangement was entered into between them, by which their intecests became united imder the management of the Hudson's Bay Com|)any. The proprietary were then called upon to pay 100/. per cent, upon their capital, which, with the stock in trade of both parties in the country, formed a capital stock of 400,000/., on which fourjier cent, dividend was ])aid in the years 1821 to 1824, and fron> that time to the i>resent, half-yearly dividends of five per cent,, with a bonus of 10 ])er cent, from the year 1828 to 1832, and since tiiat an average bonus of six per cent, until last year, when none was paid. When your Lordships come to consider the very hazardous nature of the trade, requiring a degree of enterprise unknown to almost any other business, together with the heavy losses to which the parties interested therein were subjootud for a Ion series of years, from the want of protection and support, which they had a rijrht to es[ieot from his Alajesty't; Government, I feel .assured your Lordships will jnui me in opinion that the profits now arising from the business are no more than a fair return for the capital employed, and the services the Hudson's Bay Company are rendering the mother country in securing to it a branch of enuunerce which they are at )ireseiit wresting out of the h.ands of foreigners, subjects of Knssia and the United States of America, but which the Conqiany would have been unable to prosecute, had they not been protected hy the License of exclusive trade they now hold. In looking at the^e profits, however, it should be borne in mind that Hudson's Bay stock, in like manner as in all other stocks, changes hands very frequently, and that the price of the stick is entirely regulated by the return it produces, thereby affiirding to the l)ulk of the incsent j)roprietors little more than six per cent, for tlieir money. In order to seeun' to the Company the enjoyments of the rights of territory and trade granted to them by their Charter, and lO i)revent a recurrence of the evils attendant on rivalship ;>r conqietition in trade that existed for so long a time, and were productive of such disastrous consciiuences in sof criminal and civil offences, and for the appointment of proper officers to act in aid of such courts within the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company and the Indian territories. Had tiie establislunent of euch courts been necessary, it would have sulyeeted the (roverinnent to a heavy expense in the payment of Commissioners and in the maintenance of legal authority ; and from the state of the country while open to conipeiitiim, it is natural to infer, that such would have bcea necessary had the exclusive right of trade not SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 429 •igliially subscribed niim iroiii the year mute and little tro- not been in the hands nf the Hudson's Bay Company, who by their good management have rendered those measures uncalled for, thereDv occasioning a considerable saving of expense, to which, under other rircumstances, the mother country would have been exposed. Hitherto the jieace of the country has been maintained at a moderate expense to the Hudson's Bay Comi)any ; but the j)oi)ulation of their principal agricultural settlement of Red River is now so much iiicrenseil, amounting to upwards 015,000 souls, principally Indians and half-castes, belonging to all the interior tribes, who are very difficult of management, that it has become necessary to establish a more regular form of government and administration of the laws than heretofore. These measures are now in progress, and it is estimated that the attendant expenses will exceed 5,000 /. per annum, which will bo borne by the (/omnany, although they might, with great propriety, call on Her Majesty's Government to relieve them from that charge. By reference to Air. Simpson's report, your Lordships will observe, that the Company are incurring other heavy exi)enses, which are augmenl'.ng from year to year, connected with that iniunt settlement, from which they deiive no bei.ofit in regard to trade, as there are no fur-bearing animals in that part of the country, but which in due time promises to become valuable to the mcreantile interests of the mother country in the productio'i of «'0)1, flax, and other exports; while the population b"ncfit by the change of habits of life that have been jjroduced by a change of occupation, as the inliabitunts have abandoned the chase, and now employ themselves in, agriculturid pursuits ; while moral and religious instruction arc afforded them by the Company's chaplains and schoohnasters. This settlement, which affords so mueli benefit to the native population, requires the most viglli'.nt attention on the [lart of the Company, us its inhabitants are of so mixed a character, and so little used to the restraints of civilised life, that mismanagement would inevitably lead U> an outbreak among them, which would prove ruinous to their trade throughout the country. Such outbreak hnd very nearly occurred last year, occaiiioning much apprehension in the minds of the Corajjany, through the mischievous instigation of a man named " Dickson," styling himself, " LiberaUn* of the Indian Race," who succeeded in assembling a number ot Icailing half-breeds, and proceeded with them to Red River, with the view of raising that population, so as to seize the Company's depots and trading posts, and taking pos- session of the trade and country, as may be seen by reference to the accompanying corresjwndence with the Foreign Office ;* this I notice, in order to show how precarious the Company's tenure of their trade is, and how nuich they require the countenance and support of Her Majesty's Government, in affording them protection from the intrusion of strangers. The principal benefit the Company derive from the exclusive License of trade is the I>eaceable occupation of their own proper territory, from which they draw nearly the whole of the i)rofit« of their trade, and for the protection of which they liave a right to look to Government in common with the rest of Her Majesty's subjects, as the trade of the country embraced in the Royal License is as yet of very little benefit to them, and affords greater advantfiges to the mother country in ihe employment of shipping, and in the revenue arising from imports and exports, than the Company derive from it. The country dciKduinatcd " Indian Territories," comprehended in the Royal License, is principally situated on the west side of the Rocky ^Mountains, the most valuable part tliereof being the north-*vi'st coast, bordering on the shores i>f the Pacific. For many years jjrevious to the grant of exclusive trade to the Hudsoirs Bay Company, the trade ot' that coast was engrossed by the subjects of the United States of ^^merio;i a)id Russia, the only e.^ablishment occupied i)y British traders being '" Astoria," arterwards named " Fort (ieorge," at tiic moiitii of the Columbia River, while no attein))t was made, through the means of shipping, to obtain any part of the trade of the coast; and so uupro- fivable was it in the years 1818, 1819, 1820, 1821 and 1822, and so difficult of managoment, that several of the leading and most intelligent persons in the country strongly recom- mended that the Coin[)any should abandon it altogether. The Conii)any, however, felt that the honour of the concern would, in a certain degree, lie compromised '■■ ; ■ they to adopt that recoinaiendation, holding as Jiey did under Government the Liceu'^' - .juesiion, and witli a degree of cairgy and entc . iiri-i', wliich I feel assured your Lonlships will admit, rcflcets much credit on themselves and on their otlicurs and servants in the countrv, t!iey directed their efforts so vigorously to that branch of the business, that tlicv compcllod the American adventurers, one by one, to withdraw from the contest, and are now pressiijg the Russian Fur Company so closely, that although that association is supjiorted by its govern- ment to the extent of aHiirding them the assistr' -■ ,if a strong military guard at cucli nf their establishments, whiih, with their slilpping, are officered by naval and military otlicers of the Imperial army and navy, we are gaining ground upon them, 1 hope at no very distant period to confine them to the trade of their own proper territory. 'ri)c outlay and expense attending this com])etition in trade are so heavy, that the profits arc yet but in |ierspective, none worthy of notice having been rcalisei'. the result sijiowiu"' sonic years a trifling loss, and in others a small gain, fluctuating according to the degree of activity with which the contest is maintained ; but by energy and persoveiance we hope, in due Appendix, No. il. 1 m i! !-;■ • As till! Correspondence with tfie Forei(;n Offico referred to dues not relate to the renewal of tli« Grant t) flic Mudson's U«y Coiiiimny, it Ims not been iippended to these Papers. 0.24 — Sess, 2. 3 " 3 1 rl >i 430 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE I ( '4|;; \^ No. 14. Liittcr from the Under-Scci'etary oi'Siate for the" Colonies to the G' Tornor of the Hudson's Hay Comrnnv, 3 Fofcruiiry 1838. Ill oixier tx) ftkoni our ijorishipt m opportunity ot torming some oj)ii')8ition we Imve to contend againbt and the tiiffitulty we hiivc to< of luisinesH, 1 hog to enclose copy of ,1 inemorniidi'in* I lately had c MnjoatyV Seoretiivy of State for i orci;.rn Art'airs, in reference to the op AppmJix, Nil, 1 1, duo t;m;\ to IrinR it to a more favourablo iHsuc, if the facilities of protection now required of "ver Mil.;' 8ty'« Government l)e ntfordcd. This trade. ncv—thclcff<, nftbrds employment to about 1,0(X) men, occupying 21 permanent tradiiii,' establish, 1 i.t,8, two migratory, trading uud trapping expeditions, a steam vessel, and five sailing vessels fom 1(K) (o 3(M) tons burthen, all wmed ; and so dangerous is the trade, that I lament tv »a.v that it has not i oen unattended with lo.ts of life. Ill oixler tx) ftt'.inl our LorUhipt m opportunity of forming some idea of the strength of ) encounter in this branch occui'.ion to hand to Her operations of the Russians in that (juarter. That the Hutlson's IJay Company liave the strongest (lossible claims upon Her Majesty's Government for a renewal of the exclusive License of triule, without any rent or pecuniary consideration whatsoever, cannot, J. should .lope, luhnit of a (|ucBtiou after th- xpiiijrtvii.ii I have given ; but \\i en it is consifVied that the greater part of the count.y to which tli'% License applies is Indian country, oi'jned by treaty to citizens of the Uni«. i Si.ite •. of Aim - rica, as well a' to British subjects, ai-i!, consequently, the License of exelu.-ve tT.^le lioes not protect the Comjjany from the compi lition of citizens of the Unit.cd Sta es, li i .u-iappot'- evident that no substantiiil l.'-ncfit is likc'ly to arise from the boon we are •••iliciting, bt-yomi the probable means of aftbr(li:)g peace i > our own territor us, in tin tranqu;'iit ; < f '.vliv-'i Koi Majesty's (iovcniinent 'light to feel a deej) an int- rest as the s.,!ckholdeici <•^' the Huds'.u's Bay Company. If furthci proof be necessary that w 1 ire not ii. tlio undistiinK.d cnjoyin-. nt of the fur traiic, I bt'g to hand to your Lordships c >[iy of appli :ni m we hiive lujly had occa.-'ion to mal.o to the Secretary of State for Fori'istt. .* ftiiirs tor a-ij.i-t's of grievances su'-t.ained by the iijcgrossion of Russian authorities at Stikiiu', on the north-west coast, in the yeu' 1834, bv the violation of n treaty between Great iJ.itiiin and his Iiiii.eriai V^aji&ty. involving a CKiiin of 2(i,000/., h)ss mid damage actually susbiir.e'i by the H>ii', 'onipiny, for whitli, «s v", they have received nr iidemniticafinn, although they conC-lentiv loolc to (■bt'iia .'^ch fhnnifji the et'f !• .'if Her M",-,. sty's Secretary of State for F'ore!;j;i j-ffairs. On th'.' <'i''i;,s .'- oi p-oinotiu:; discovery und science, ^« have iikewi,.ie a stjwjq claim '(D the coimtenancf ■■f'\ i-uyv rt oi' Her Majesty's Governmenl.as at tliis moment the Compaxiy h.Tvc an txncditi . 1;; foot '; nt-; imciii meoted with any ulterior views towards any pecuniary advaritige or bcn"fi; ari.-^i':,. trcn) trii!i!\ Ixit solely for the honour of completing the survey of the nr-th.'n) c^>»^;^ > '" V nevi.'a, nt a co, v. i nave alluded is ill • As the Meiiiomriilum referred to does not rcdnte to the renewal of f .t C"ii!j-.ie it hiiF not been aiif ended to fliese Papers. ,; to the Hudson's Bay tioii now required of SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 431 in the final clause, rc.i|)C(:ting the oreciiou ol'coluniea within the territory comiirispil in the Appendix, No. 11. {^rant, for which Lord Uieneig would propose to Hubstltutu the following W(>run: — " Provided neverthclccs, and we do hereby declare our pleasure to be, that nothing herein contained shall extern! or h;! cimatrued to extend to i>revent the cstabliHhniont by u.", our heirs or .iiiciTKsorH, within the territories aforesaid, or any of them, of any colony or colonies, province or provinces, or for annexing any part of the aforesaid territories to any existing colony or colonies, t;) us in right of our Imperial Crown belonginL', or for constituting any such form of civil government as to us may seem moot within any finJi olony or colonies, province or ]irovin'jes ; but with a view to the estublishnient of any such colony or colonies, j)rovinco or provinces, or to the introduction of any such form of civil goxernment, we do hereiiy resc^rve to us, our heirs and successors, full ])ower and authority to revoke these presents, or any part thereof, in so far as the same may embrace or extend to any of the ter- ritories aforesaid, which may hereafter he comprised within any such colony or colonies, province or provinces as aforesaid." If you should be prepared, on behalf of the Hudson's Bay Com])any, to accede to this alteration, the only qncstion which will remain to be decided will he the amount of the rent which, in conformity with the 2d clause of the Act 1 & 2 Geo. 4, c- 66, is to be paid bv /'o,/-, iieriod of 21 years from the date of their '•elu,;°''^e, tiie (Company after the expiration of the first perioit 01 zi yei origuul grant This is a question lying exclusively within the cognizance of the Lords Cofuniissioners of the TreaBury, and Lord (ilenelg has accordingly referred it for their Lordships' coiisideratiou. You will probably reucive from their Lordships an early commu- nication on the subject. I have, &c. (signed) Geo. Grey. >."<], "^C"(j?~e„t, eoce — No. 15. 11 I'elli), Governor. Copy of a LETTER from the Governor cf the Hudson's Bay Company to the Under- Secretary of State for tlie Colonies. Sir, Hudson's Bay House, 7 February 1838. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge your letter of 3d insti'ut, with reference to my letter of 25th October, wherein you say that you are directed by Lord Glenclg to inform me, "that his Lordship having attentively considered the draft of the Royal License, granting to the Hudson's Bay Company the exclusive trade with the Indians in certain parts of North America for a further jieriod of 21 years, and the draft of the Covenant for the performance of the conditions contained in that License, will be prepared, subject to one alteration, to advise Her Majesty to direct the granting of the Koyal License on the terms which you have proposed." And further saying, that the alteration to which you " have alluded is in the final clause, respecting the erection of colonies within the territory comprised in the Grant, for which Lord Glenelg would propose to substitute the following words," &c. &c. In reply, I beg to say 1 have considered the alteration jiroposed by Lord Glenclg, and that I am prepared, on behalf of the Hudson's Bay Company, to accept the License, subject to the alteration in question. I have, &c. (signed) J. H. Felly. No. 15. Letter from the Governor of the Iliuiaoii's Bay f Company to the Under-Secretary of StatJ for the Colonies, 7 February 1838. ';i Hi II C8 to the Governor of — No. 16. ^"* via- I cnclo-'C for tli(! inionnntion of tlie Lords Coiiuiils!0!ll>ll to eKtublixli there ; and that if any such j)r()vinec or colony ghould be ho cstabliHhcd, the Charter Mhould thenceforth cease to be in force, so far as respects the territories which may be included within the limits of the new colony. This condition having been coinninnic'xiv-'' to the (Jovcrnor of the Hudson's llav Coui- pany, he has forwarded to Lord Cilenelgth.' .iraft of a Charter, herewith enclosed, embracing a provision to that effect; as, however, this provision does not appear to bo correctly ex- pressed, Jvord Glcneig proposes to substitute for it one ii\ the following words : " Provided nevertheless, and we do hereby declare our j)leasure to be, that nothing herein contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to jirevcnt the establishment by us, our heirs or successors, within the territories aforesaid, or any of them, of any colony or colonies, province or provinces, or for annexing any part of the aforesaid territories to any existing colony or colonics to us, in right of our Imperial Crown, belonging, or for constituting iiiy such form of civil government as to us may seem meet, within any such colony or colonics, province or provinces ; but with a view to the establishment of any such colony or colonies, province or provinces, or to the introduction of any such form of civil government, we do hereby reserve to us, our heirs and successors, full jKnvcr and authority to revoke these presents, or any part thereof, in so far as the same may embrace or extend to any of the ter- ritories aforesaid, which may hereafter be comprised within any such colony or colonies, province or provinces as aforesaid." Assuming that this alteration will be accepted by the Hudson's Bay Company, another question remains to be decided — that, namely, of the rent to be demanded from the Com- pany in conformity with the second section of the Act 1 & 2 Geo. 4, c. 66, after the expira- tion of the period of 21 years, for which their first Charter was granted: this is a .luestion lying especially within the province of the Lonls Commissioners of the Treasury ; and 1 am therefore to request that you will mov, their Lordships to enter into communication with the Hudson's Bay Company for the purpose of concluding a satisfactory adjustment of it. I have, &c. (signed) J. Strplien m — No. 17. Copy of a LETTER from A. Y. Speannan, Esq., to the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. No. 17. for tlic Colonic o Miiri'U 1U;)» Sir, Treasury Chambers, 8 Miirch 1838. ^''*'5'''5.'''°'" The Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury having had under their consideni- Fsn., til the Under- ''"" J'"'"* letter, dated .3d ultimo, with the enclosed application from the Hudson's Bay C'oni- Sec rotary of State pany, soliciting a renewal of the Charter of exclusive traile which they hold under the pro- visions of the Act 1 & 2 Geo. 4, c. 66, I have it in command from the Lords Coiii nissioners of Her Majesty's Treastiry to reqm'st you will state to Lord Gleneig, with rcfei\,ncc to the suggestion which his Lordship has submitted to this Board, tiiai they should cuti r into i:tm\- munieation with that Comiin.iy respecting tlic amount of rent which should be jiiiid in eon- formity with the second sctinn of the said Act for the pr()j)<)sed extension of their exclusive privilege of trading in the North-west territory e.f North Anierien; that my Jjords a|)pre!ieml that no further information respecting the establ'sliments or jiroccedings of the Conipimy can he obtained than is afforded by the statements which have been siibniitt(';c::sc of exclusive trade to the Hudson's Bay Company, I am directed by the Lords of Le M8fchant.Es(|., the Committee of Privy Council for Trade to request that you will inform Lord Glenelg that J? '' tliey have settled the terms of auch License with the Governor of the Company, pursuant to fo^'^fw Colon'ie." '^ his Lordship's desire, and in accordance with his Lordship's views, as expressed in your ^ jigffj, jsas ' above-mentioned letter. The accompanyin(r draft Grant of License and Covenant have been submitted on behalf of the Company to this Board, and the same being, as far as their Lordships can jud^e, unexceptionably worded, their Lordships would recommend Lord Glenelg to obtain Her Majesty's assent to the Grant, upon the covenant being duly executed by ihe Company, and after both instruments shall have received the approval of the law off -crs of the Crown. Their Lordships have only furtlier to observe, that they ha . » commuii'cated with Hei Majesty's Commissioners of Woods and Forests on the qu ..on of the rent to be made payable to the Crown under the License, and the circumstances of the case having been laid before the Commissioners, they concurred with this Board in the propriety of : auh rent being only nominal. I am, &c. (signed) Denis Le Marchant. — No. 20. — Copy of a LETTER from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to Denis Le Marchant, Esq. Sir, Downing-street, 14 March 1833. I AM directed by Lord Glenelg to acknowledge your letter of the 6th instant, enclcsuo the draft of a License of exclusive trade in certain parts oi' North America, the terms oi' which have been settled between the Hudhon's Bay Company and tlie Lords of the Com- mittee of Privy Council for Trade, and stating their Lordships' opinion that the rent to be demanded from tb-^ Company in return for this License should iie merely nominal. In reply, I am to inform you, that Lord Glenelg has referred the whole correspondence on this subject to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, expressing at the same time his concurrence in the views as to the rent f -nressed in your letter, and has requested their Lordships to d ; , 'leir solicitors to takt (iie necessary steps for concluding the pro- posed arrangemen' :". Ill the proper forms of low. I have, &c. (signed) J. Stephen, ''•' . 20. Ar!» i i..im the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to Denis Le Mar- chant, Esq., 14 March l;a8< 0.24— Sess. 2. 31 tl ilk I I tiM. 484 A|)|>cn(llz, No. 1 1. APPF.?»DIX TO REPORT FROM TJIF, — No. 21.— No. '21. Letter from the Auinttnt Secre- tary to the Lordi «rthc Treaiury Copy of a LETTER frrm the A«!«i«*ant Secrt-Ury to the F..ordt of the Trcaaurv to thu Goveriiur i>t ihe Hiidi*iin'i« Huv t/oiiipuiiy, TrcaMiiry ('!mnit» M commanded bv the Lords Cnmnii^iioiipr* of lier Muj^xtyN Treasury to imnamit to you herewith the irrnnt of a License to trade for the Hudson'^ Bay Company ; and F aiM to request that the Deed of ('ovenanf on th-- part o' the (Jiiuipwiiy, didy fvcculed to the GoTernor of '" '*"'^'* manner aH the solicitor of this Board may re<|uire, may be returned to this the Hudion'i Bay tltpartment. Company, I anii Scc 7 June 1838. (sigtipd) A. Y. Sfteariiidii. End. in No. 21. 1' ii Ei'cli'iuire in No, 21. Covenant by the Hudi.oi\'8 Day Company for performance of Conditiins and Heservations contained in tlie Crown Grant ot' even dale. — (Dated 3oth May 1838.) Whereas Her Majesty hxth, bv an iiif Anwrica as shall not form part of any of Her Muiesty's provinces in North America, or of any hinds or territories belcin";ing to the U' 1' d States of Americii, or to any European fjovernmenl, state or power, iind nath secured to u . the said Governor and Company, and our successors, the sole and exclusive privilege, for he full perio'. of 21 years fnmi the date of the said grunt, of trading with the Indians in • II such parts of North America as aforaiiy, and our successors, on the Ist day of .June in every vein into Her Majesty's Kxciie(|uer, on u-coiint of Her Majesty, Her heirs and successors : We therefore, the siiid Governor and Company of Adventurers of T'ni;land trading into Hudson's Bay, do hereby covenant an I bind ourselves and our successors, that we and they shall ye.irly and every year, and on every 1st day of June, from and : 'cr the expiration of the fiist lour years ol the said term of 21 years, nnd tliencefoitli ilumig the continuance of the said Gntiit and License, pay or cause to be paid the said yearly rent of 6.». into Her Majesty's Exchi^quer, aud on cde account of Her Vlajesty, Her heirs and suc- cessors, and that we and our success >rs shall, durine: the period of the said Grant and License, keep accurate resiisters of \11 personi' employed by us or our successors in any parts of North America, and shall once in each ye. >• return to Her .Majesty's Secretary of State accurate duplicates of such registers ; iind «e, tlie >aid Governor and Company, do iiereby buid our- seb'.j and our successors in the peiiiil sun' of ri,00o/., that we will, as far as in us niuy lie, em no the due execution olull criniinal -md ci.il processes by the oHiceis and persons legally empowered to execute such proce;s within all the territories for the time being iiicliuled in Ihe said grant, and for the pioducin'i or deliveiinir into safe custody for the purpose of trial of any person in our enipic ,• or acting ii..der ouruMtliority wi'.hin the said territories who may be charged with any criminul "Uience; mid we do ,ii-;o hereby covenant that we will, as soon as the same ciiii he conveniently done, make and submit to the consideration and approval of Her Majesty such rules and reguliitions for the management and carrying on the said fur trade, and the conduct of the jic-sons en ^il yed by us therein, as have appeared or may appear to us to be most etrecli;;il for gradndly diminishing and uU'inately preventing the sale or distribution of spirituous liquors to the Indians, and tor promoting their moral and religious improvement. Witness the seal of the said Company the aoth day of May i8.3i^. By order of the Governo and C iinmittee, (t 3. (siened) W. G. Smith, Assistant Secretary. Sealed undi^r the common seal of the viihin-meriiioned Governor and Company, and d.»livered by William Gregory Smith, their / -sist int Secretary, pursuant to their order and ppointment, being first duly stamped in the presence of (signed) Thomas Crosse, Threadneedle-streel, Solicitor. f Tion-;ion of country extending west- ward to ihe " Put ific (-' »," and northward to the fhore of the " Hudson's Uay," had cmtmued in the undispuud possession of the Crown of France for u period of two centuriei^ and was known ns I.a Nouvelle France, or Canada ; That during the half century succeedim; the treaty above alluded to, an extensive trade and trattic wus contmiied tn be carried on ilirouiihoiit the country, described by commercial companies and traders who had establiHlied themselves there under authority of the rrowu of .I'raiice, and that a trade was likewise, and at the same period, carried on by other traders of British origin, who had entered into that country and formed establishmenis there, con- sequent upon its cession to the British Crown ; 'I'liiit such tiade and trattic was curried i>n freely und independent of any re>trictiuns upon conmiciciiil freedom, cither as originally enacted by the crown of France, or promulgated by tlu.t of Great Britain ; 1'hai III 17H;t nearly all the aforesaid tniders and compiinies united and formed an asso- ciation, under tLo name of "The iVoith-vvest C'lmpany of Moiiireul," which said com- pany iiiiide mnnv impoitaiit discoveries, and exteiiileil their establishments thioughnut the interior of North America, and to within the Arctic circle and to the Paeihc Ocean ; That ill the year 1821 tlie said North- west Company united tvith the so-ciilled Hudson's B ; ('uin|iaiiy, a coiiipanv to all intents and purposes foreign to the interests of Canada, and o»i'"r no responsibi ity to .ler; > ' it. under the ii.iiik' oI the llonuurable Hudson's Bay Company they advance claims anil iiuie riuhis in uitiie of an old charter of Cliiirles II., •>raiitt-d in l(i(H>, that bearing n date iie.irly luo yeHis before that this country had ceased to be an appendage to the crown of I'liinct', it pertiiiiieil to tliat 01 (ireat Britain ; '1 hat uiM>T such pre'ended authority said Hud-'on'a Bay Company assume a power to ^Miii away and sell tiie hinds ol the Crown, acquired by conquest and ceded to it by the Tread of 1673; That said Comp, in connexion with yiiur niisiion to England as the gpeciul ii|;«nt oiuioioted to repreiient Ciinadiun ri};hts and interests before the proposed Committee of the iIouhc of Commons, on the aubjecl of the Hiid8on'< Bay Tt-rrilory. I am to premiHe, however, that as it i> impoxxible to anticipate the nature of the evidence that may be tiiken, or the concUision that may l)e arrived at by the t'onimiltee, or thi- course which Parliament or ller Mnji'sty'M (iovernment may think proper to adopt on tlw r(>|K)rt of the Committee, it is not in bin Excellency'* power to convey to you at preiteni uny inxtructionx of a precise or detimie character. His Excellency hits, however, LiitMe confidence in your knowlcd>re and discretiof., iind lie has tile more reiidily intrusted tliis importuni mission to you, inasnui>:h as your hiu;li position in the colony removes you from nil the ordinary i ifluencps of liiciil or piirty considenitinii. Inimediutely on your arrival in London y<>u will place yourself in comininiication with he Kii;ht llonnuriihle llie Secretary of State for tlie tyolonies (to whom these iiistriic- ions have been coinmunicuted), and as soon us any Parliamentary Comniitt e on the subject of the Hudson's Kay Company or Territory is constituted, you will take steps for offering to afford all infurmati'|y pressed. He fears that the continued vacancy of this great tract, with a boundary not marked on th> s >il itself, may lead to future loss and injury both to England and Cuiiada, He wishes you i» orge the expediency of miirkiiii; out the limits, and so protectinu; the frontier of the lamU uLove Lake Superior, about tiie Red River, and froai thence to tlie Pacific, as efTectiiully to secure them against violent seizure or irregular set- tlement until the advancing tide of cinigrunts from Canada and the United Kin^;doin niav fairly flow into them, and occupy them as subjects of the Queen, on behalf of the British empire. With these objects in view, it is especially important that Her Majesty's Government should guard any renewal of a license of occupation (should such be determined on), or any recognition of rights by the Com])any, by such stipulations as will cause ^uch license or such riuhts not 10 intei fere with the fair and legitimate occupation of tracts adapted fur i-ettlemeiit. It is unnecessary, of course, to urge in any way the future importance of Vancouver's Island as the key to all British North America on the side of the Pacific, situated as it is between the extensive seaboard of Russian America and the vast territory in the hands of the United States. His Excellency cannot foresee the course which a Committee of the House of Commons may see fit to pursue in the proposed inquiry, or determine beforehand on what points evidence may be required. At any moment, however, his Excellency wili be ready to attend to your suggestions, and supply such infornintion, either by documentary evidence, or by witnesses from Canatia, as you may think necessary, and he may be able to send over. I'ou will, of course, Hct upon such further Instructions as may from time to time be conveyed to you b> h'« Excellency's directions, I have, &c, (signed) £. A. Meredith, Assistant Secretary. I in 8EIJ:CT COMMITTKE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 437 Appendix, No. 14. Lbtth from Ji, G, Smith, Esq., to Mnjor Caldwtll, Governor of Auiniboin. Sir, Hu<(H(in'i Buy Houm, Lonilon, s April I8&4. I AM directed by the Governor nnd coiniiiittce to ucknowledge the rernipt nf your several letters, dated 2d and IBtli November, and 12tli December, with their respective encluHureN, The Governor and committee upprove of the appointment of u Doard of Works for the purpoNC of attendini;' tu the kuuIh iiml hriducii in the Heltlcnient, nnd ure );laii to tind thut the councillors are nn thi; whole wniking Imrniuniuusly, uud, they trust, beneficially to the interests uf the inhabitants. They note your wisli lor the appointment of a j^ood surveyor, ond have desired Sir George Simpson to look out fur a f iiitable perHon in Cun&du ; but it is doubtful whethei he will succeed in ob(ainin<^ one thiit Hiuson. The Governor und couiniiltep trust that the curse you pursued with the five deserters from the service of the lur trade will have a good cHTect in preventing such conduct in future. The Miimtes of Clouucil held on the IHth October ond 8th December are opproved of. With respect to ynur mipiirv iis to the competency of the Court of Assiniboin 10 aiijudi- cnte in civil eases exceedinir the amount of -iOU /., I iim to inlorin you thut that court being held under the authority of tiie charter within the limits of Rupert's l.and, its powers are not restricted as to the uuiount upon which adjudication niny he uiude, the rights held under the charier being reserved by the Inst clause of the Act Geo. 4, c. «C. 1 am also directed to inform you, with reference to the petition of the Presbyterian con- gregation of lied Uiver, that neither the Governor und Council of Assiniboin, nor the Governor and committee of the Hudson's Bay Company, have the power of incorporating uny body of men fur iiiiy purpose whatever. The property held by the Presbyterian con- gregation must therefore be vested in trustees, as it is ut present ; and you will be pleused to ejinmiiniciite this to the parties inlercsted. Mr. F. G. Johnson, Q- C, of the Montreal Bur, wlio has been appointed recorder of Rupert's Land, assessor und Irgul adviser to the Governor of Assinibnin, and to th» Com- pany, will proceed bv the spring canoes to Red River, und will assume the law library now in the possession of 5lr. Thorn. From the accounts they have had of Mr. Johnson's ability and disposition, the Governor and committee have every expectation that he will act cordially with you for the general benefit of the settlement under your charge. The account you give of the abundant supply of agricultural and plain provisions is very satisfactory ; and, trusting thut nothing may occur to disturb the peace and prospects of the settlement, I have, &c. (signed) R. G. Sntilh, Assistant Secretary. Apiitndii, No. 14. Appendix, No. 15. PETITION of Inhabitants and Natives of the Settlement situated on the Red River, ill the Assiniboin Country, British North America. Append' •■"\f. k time to time be To the Honourable the Legislative Assembly of tlie Province of Canada, in Parliament assembled, llie Petition of the undersigned Inhabitants and Natives of the Settlement situated on the Red River, in the Assiniboin Country, British North America. Humbly showeth. That many years a^o a body of British emigrants were induced to settle in this country under very flattering promises made to them by the late Earl of Selkirk, and under certain contracts. All those promises and contracts which had led .lem to hope that, protected by British laws, they would enjoy the fruits of their labour, have been evaded. On the coalition of the rival companies, many of us, Europeans and Canadians, settled with our families around this nucleus of civilization in the wilderness, in full expectation 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 I 3 that iM' 438 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE it J Appendix, No, 15. *hnt none would interrupt our enjoyment of these privileues which we believe to be ours .—. by birihiis;ht, and whicn are secured tu all Her Msijesty's auhjects in any other British colony. \Vf have paid liira' sums of money to the Hiidcon's Bay Company for land, yet we cannut obtain deeds for the same. The Company's agents have made sevaial alteiupts to force upon us deeds which would reduce ourselves and our posterity to the mosi abject slavery under that body. As evidence of thi«, we append a opy of such deed« ns have been oHerod to us for signdture. Under what we beheve to be a fictitious charter, but which the Company's agents have maintained to be the fundamental law of " Rupert's Land," we have been prevented the receiving in exchange the peltries of our country for ar.y of the products of our labour, and have bien forbidden giving peltries in exchange for any ol the imported necessaries of life, under the penalty of beinu imprisoned, and of having our property confiscated ; we have been forbidden to take peltries in exchange even for food supplibH to furnishing Indians. The Hudson's Bay Company's clerks, with an armed police, h^ive entered into settlers' houst's in quest of furs, and confisi ated all they found. One poor settler, after having his foods seized, had his house burnt to the ground, and afterwards was conveyed prisoner to orfc Factory. The Coniptiny's first lopal adviser in this colony has declan d our navigating the lakes and rivers between this colony and Hudson's Bay with any articles of our produce to he illegal. The same authority has declared our selling of English goods in this colony to be illegal. On our annual commercial journeys into Minnesota, we have been pursued like felons by aimed constables, whi) searched our property, even by breaking open our trunks: all furs found were confiscated. This interference with those of aboriginal descent had bedii carried to such extent as to endanger the peace of the settlement. Thus we, tlie inhabitants of this land, have been and are constrained to behold the valuable commercial productions of our country e.'rported for the exclusive profit of a com- pany of traders who are stran>:eis to ourselves and to our country. \\e are hy necessity compelled to use many articles of their importation, for which we pay from one hundred to four hundred per cent, on prime cost, while we are prohibited exportiui; those productions of our own country and industry, which we could exchange for the neccs>anes < f life. This country is iroverncl and legislated for by two distinct Legislative Councils, in consiitutiiig ol which, we have no voice, the members of the highest liokling their othce of councillors hy viitue of rank in the Company's service. This body passes laws affecting our interest ; as, for instanci, in 18i6 it deciecd that 20 percent, duty would be levied on the imports of all who were suspected of trading in furs ; this duty to be paid »t York Factory. Arm, and upon the Michaelmas-day in each year, the rent or sum of three pepper-corns, the v.rsi pay- ment whereof to be made upon the 29th day of December next ensul )g the date hereof; and the said John Slater for himself, his heii-s, executors, administ.'at I's, doth hereby covenant and agree with the said Governor and Com|)any, in manner following ; that is to say, that the said Jolin Slater shall or will, within 40 days from the date hereof, »ett:e or establish himself or then.sclves, and continue to reside upon the said hereby demised land, and shall or will, within five years from the datj of these presents, brrn ;i< i 111 ■li ' ! rl 440 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE ,;,r. i'' .r Jkpptndix, No. 15. or persons in carrying on such trade or trnffic, nor shall nor will at any time or times diirin'^ i— . said term, distil or procure, or cause to be distilled epiritiious liquors of any nature or kind soever, either upon the land hereby demised, or within uny other part or the territories belonging to the said Governor and Company in North America, nor during the said term, knowingly suffer or permit any other person or pers'ins whomsoever, to distil any such liquors upon the said demised Innds or any part thereof; and also, that the said John Slater, his executors, administrators and assi'^ns, shall not, nor will at any time export beyond the territories of the said Governor and Company any efil-ots beinirthe produce of the said land, or n'lqiiired by the sitid Johu slater, his executors, administrators and assigns, within the territories of the said Governor and Company, and intended so to be exported by him the said John Slater, his executors, adniiiiistrisors and ass!;i:ns other than and except at Port Nelson (one of the ports belonging to the said Company') and in siiips or vessels belonging to ' or in the service of the suid Governor iind ('ompany, to he conveyed to the port of London, and there to be lodged and deposited in some one of their warehouses iifclongiiig to or used for that purpose by the said Governor and Company, uud with power to sell and dispose of the same eHfects, on account of the said John Slater, his executors, administrators and assigns, and also shall not, nor will import any goods or effects into the territories of the said Governor and Company in North America or any part thereof, other thiin and except from the said port of London, and through some one of the warehouses of goods in the said port of London, and other than and except in a vessel or vessels, ship or ships belonging to the said Governor and Company, or in their service ; and also that he or they shall or will pay and allow to the said Governor and Company in respect of all such produce, goods and commodities, whetiier exported or importi^d, all charges as and for and in tlie nature of caugagc, wharfage, warehouse-room, and commission lor sale, whicli shall bo or constitute the average price or prices in similar cases, together with such charge for freightage as shall at the time or respective times be fair and reasonable, and shall or will allow and pay ai- in the nature of a custom or duty, any sum not exceeding 5/. for and upon tvery 100 A or value or amount of the produce, go'ids, and commodities which shall or may be conveyed to or from Port Nelson from or to the port of London as atbresaid, and so in proportion for a less quantity or value, or in amount than 100/., unless the same kind of produce, goods * and commodities fhall be subject to a higher rate of duty on imjjortation at Quebec, and then in cases of importation, that he or they shall and will pay and allow unto the said Governor and Company sums at and after the same rate as shall be paiil or payable at Quebec, such value or amount to be I'roiu time to time fixed, and as contained in all cases of import by and upon the actual and honajide invoice prices, and in all cases ot Cxport by the ne'. proceeds of sales at London aforesaid, and the said John Slater for himself, his heirs, exe- cutors and administrators, doth hereby further covenant with the said (Jovernor and Com- pany, and their successors, that he the said John Slater, his executors, administrators and assigns, will use his and their best endeavours to maintain the defcnca and internal pea'.'e of the territories of the said Governor and Company in iNoith America, and shall and will be chargeable therewith according to such laws and regulations as are now in force in respect of the same ten ilories, or shall from time to time be made by competent authority ; and also that the said John Slater, his executors, administrators or assigns, shall not, nor will at any time or times during the said term, attempt or by any direct or indirect, mediate or immediate manner, ways or means, infringe or violate, or set about or to infriiiu;e or violate, or aid, assist or abet, or set about or attempt to aid to assist or abet, or supply with spirituous liquors, trading goods, provisions or other necessaries, any person or persons whomsoever, corporate or incorporate, or any prince, power, or potentate or state whatsoever, who shall infringe or violate, or who shall set about or attempt to infringe or violate the exclusive rights, powers, privileges, and immunities of or belonging, or in any wise appertaining to, or held, used or enjoyed by the §aid Governor and Company, and their successors, under the charter or charters, without the license or consent of the said Governor and Company, and their successors for the time being, first had and obtained ; and lastly, that he the said John Slater, his executors, administrators or assigns, shall not nor will at any time during the said term, underlet or assign or otherwise alienate or dispose or part with the actual possession of the said land hereby demised, or any part thereof, for all or any part of tiie said term, or any interest demised under the same, without the consent in writing of the said Governor and Company for the time being first had and obtained ; and also, that thesaid John Slater, his executors, administrators or assigns, shall or will, within six calendar months from the date hereof as to these presents, and within six calendar immths from the date of such respective assignment, and underlease to be made under or through these presents, and with respect to such assignment diid underlease respectively, cause tlie.se presents, and every such assignment or underlease, when made, to be registered in the register of the suid lenitoiies in North Amreica, or of the district in which the said hereby demised land shall he situate, and wherever such rejiister shall be kept at the time. Fiovidtd always, nevertheless, and it is hereby declaii^d and agreed, that il the said John Slater, his executors, udiniiiistrutors or assigns, shall not in all things well and truly observe and perform all uiul everv the covenants and agreement herein contained, on his or their behalf to be observed and performed, then and in either of such cases, and either upon or after the first breach or any subsequent breach or breaches of the covenant, and as to any subsequent breech or breaches, notwithstanding there may have been any waiver or waivers, or supposed waiver or waivers theicof by the acceptance of rent or otherwise, it shall or may be lasvful to and for the said Governor tind Company, and their successors or assigns, to enter into and upon the said hereby ;°mit:>ed premises, or any part thereof, in the name of the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 441 the whole thereof, and to have, to hold, retain and enjoy the same as in their former state. Appendix, No. ifii and also to put uii end to and determine the same term of 1,000 years, or so much thereof as — — shall be then unexpired, and all and eery person or persons tiien occupying: the same pre- mises, or 1 lainiing title thereto, to ptit out and remove, anytlmis; herembefore contained to the contrary notwithstanding. In witness whereof the said parties to these presents have hereunto set their hands nnd seals the day and year first above written. Signed, sealed, and delivered iio presence of Geo. Taylor, I of Red River Settlement, I Sur»eyor, and J John Black, of the same place,! Clerk in the service of the said Governor and Company.) For the Governor and Company aforesaid, Duncan Fiiilayson, Governor of Assiiiiboine. John X Slater. Countersigned, George TaylorA ^yimesses. John Jilack, J Appendix, No. 16. Appendix, No. 16, LETTER from the Committee of the Aborigines Proteeti')n Society to tiie Ri^lit Honourable Henri/ Labouchere, m. p.. Chairman. Sir, Thb condition and circumstances of the Indian tribes inhabiting the vast territory under the administration of the Hudson's Bay Company have for many years enofaged tlie atten- tion of the Aborigines Protection Society, who have witnessed with deep interest the movement which has re;-uUed in the inquiry now ])ending before the Select Committee of the House of Commons. Impressed with tho importance of this movement as affecting the future destiny not only of the wide region conceded by charter to ihe power of the Hudson's Bay Company, but that of the adjoining provinces of Canada, with whicli its interests are so intimately inter- woven, the Society took early steps to procure such facts and information relating to the territory and its inhabitants as were accessible to theiu, and have on various occasions brought the subject under the notice of Her Majesty's Government. Apart from all considerations of humanity, they could not be unmindful of the circum- stance that while in too many instances, in other portions of our colonial dominions, the aboriginal proprietors of the soil have been viewed as an obstruction to the advnnciiii; interests and exigencies of the white settlers who have displaced them, both policy and humanity must concur in the preservation iind just treatment of the native races of the Hudson s Bay, who are the support of an important and lucrative commerce, and the real producers of tlie vast wealth, amounting, on conij)etent authority, £0 more than 20 millions sterling, witlt which the fur trade has already enriched England. ' The Society trust that they are not too tar presuming if they desire to avail themselves of the present opportunity to submit their views on tl)e impo-tant subject at present under the ci)nsideration of tho Committee of tho House of Commons. They l)eg 10 assure the Committee that in so doing they have been most anxious not unreasonably to intrude on their attention by laising merely theoretical discussions. Th^y have watched the prouress of the evidence with sjieat interest, and they have collected with much care, both from public sources and from piivati' and peisonal communication -ith individuals, such facts and information bearing on the condition and prospects of the aboriginal race as appeared to them calculated to aid the investigation now in progress, by throwing additional liuht upon points where the evidence has been defective, or by suggesting considerations whir!) may lead to further inquiry, and to such an enlarged view of our connexions with the [(iftian tribes as may tend to the adoption of proper measures for tl'eir future improvement and preservation. The subjects which appear to the Society to be deserving of special attention in connexion with the present inquiry, and on which they would respectfully ott'ei- a few observations embodying the inl(>rmation they have been able to procure, are the following : — 1 The general character, geographical distribution, and estimated numbers of the tribes of the Hudson's Bay. 2. Their rapid decrease, and threatened extinction. ;j. The character nntl operation o( the system of trade and adnunistration of the Hudson's Bay Company, as connected with this decrease. 4. The prevalence of famines, and their effects. 6. The result of missionary operations, in reference to the capacity of the Indian for tlic habits of civilised life. 6. T!ie prospects of the Indian race tinder the conteniptated annexation of the Hudson's Bay 'ori-'t ry to Canada. C.24 — ,"ress, 2. 3 K Notwithstanil ing 44" APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No, i6. Notwi'iiiiliinding iho diversity of petty indepeinlent tribes, of whom between :>0 anil 00 _— names are found scattered over tiie surface ot this wiae region, there dots not appear at the present day lo Le more than six lunguages of a radically distinct character in the whole area of Briiisii North America. 1. Bciiiniiing from the north, the Esquimaux', an exclusively maritime family, occupy the entire circumference of the Arctic coast of the American continent, from Russian America on the wtst to Labrador on the east. 2. The Kolooch, comprising <;reat variety of tribes, many of whom are also nunitime in their habits, occupy a large portion of British Oregon and of Russian America, and extend eastward to M'Kenzie's River. a. The Aihabascaii or Clie|>evvyan, a wide-spread laiuiiy, conterminous on the north with the previously mentioned family, extend from Fort Churchill lo Hudson's Bay, across the entne continent, through new Caledonia and the adjacent parts of Uritish Oregon to tlie shores of the Pacific Ocean. 4. The great Ali>onquin division, the largest of all the North American group?, sul)tend the .Atliabascrtiis on the north, and extend in a southerly direction far into the territory of the United States They include the well-known tribes the Dilawares, Crees, Chippewas, &c., besides many now extinct races. ;i. The Iroquois, completely surroimded by and inclosed i" the vast area of the Aluon- quins, formed the famous confederacy of the "fur nations, whose original area comprised the '' '■ jf Canada, and extended southwards as far as the greater |)ortioii of the present limits of States of Pennsylvania and New York. fl. Disrpgardiui; minor subdivisions, the remaining portion of the country included between the limits of the Algonquins and the Rocky .Mountains may be considered as in the occupancy of the Sioux, at the present day by far the most nuiiicious and warlike native conlederajy of North America. The Sioux are dominant over the vast prairie region watered by the Missouri and the upper waters of the Saskatchewan. To quote the languaiie of a recent writer, "The Iroquois and Algonquins exhibit in the most typical i'orui the characteristics of the North American Indians, as fotiiid in the earliest descrip- tions, and they are the two families uptm which the current notions respecting the phy- siognomy, habits, and moral and intellectual powers of the so-called Red Race are chieflv founded. As a general rule, though not without important exceptions, the Algonciuin anil lru(jUiiis classes lie to the east of the Mississippi, and their original area was the region of the fo,...,t rather than the prairie ; " a remark which applies also to the Koloocii and Atlia- hhscans, who are usually classed by the Hudson's Bay traders under the general designa- tion of Thickwood Indians. In the accom])anying Map, coloured ethnnlogically, the limits of the great division I isi mentioned, together with the localities of the most important irilits of which they consist, are indicated with as much precision as the natuie of the subjtct will allow. Por the "onvrnieiice of comparison, a statement of the mimbeis and distribution of the Indian tribes as far south as the Gulf of Mexico, based on tlie Reports of the iJnited States Commiisioners on Indian Affairs, has been added ; and the whole, it is believed, exhibits a summ:iry of information from the most recent and relialle sf-urces in regard to the Indian tribes of North America, as complete as the pivsent state of our knowledge admits. The data for estimatinir th>' pp.ot and present popu'ation of the Hudson's Hav teiritorieg are by no means .satisfactory. The census given in evidence before the present Committee by Sir (ieoige Simpson, of 65,670 for the entire territory east of ttie Rocky ^lountaiiis, would seem to indicate, from the vast disproportion between the population and the extent ot the territory they occupy, that here, as in other parts of the North American continent, the aboriginal race is rapidly wastinir a^ay. The testimony of travellers to this painful fact is uniform and emphatic. ''Since 1829," says Mr. Parker, an American writer, speaking of the tribes west of the Rocky Mountains, " probably seven-eighths, if not, as Dr. M'Laui'hIin (the ^upe^inteudent of the Hudson's Bay Company's affairs in that quarteil believes, nine- tentlis of the entire population have Iwen swept away by disease, principally fever and ague. The malignancy of these diseases may have been increased by predisposinsi causes, such as intemperance and the general spread of venereal, since tlieir intercourse with Euro- peans ; but a more direct cause of the great mortality wan their mode of treatment." Amontj other causes of this lamentable waste of Indian life, the decrease of the game upon which the Indians subsisted has been nmcli dwelt upon. The subject is one of great importance in referenc<' to the future disposition of these territories ; and as it is also inti- inalely connected with the system of trade cariicd on by the Hudson's Bay Company, it appears to the Society to call for most serious attention. The destructive influences operating on the Indians, from the prevalence of epidemic diseasts and the habits of intemperance, may perhaps be considered as rather of a temporary than a permanent character. How far the Hudson's liay Company have employed their full influence in preventing the introduction of s])irituous liquors, and arresting the spread ol European diseases, are questions which will doubtless receive the careful attention of the Committee. The daily operation and tendency of the Company's system in the destruction of the game, which necessarily forms the sole support of a hunting population, is of greater importance as respects the future ])rospects of the comitry and the fiite of its aboiijiinal inlial)itants. The furs .jI' wild animals forming; the sole articles of exiJort froiu the country, th<' business of hunting and trapjung falls exclusively on the Indians; and to satisfy the demand? of the traders, whose jirotits depend upon the amount (jf tjie returns, it is SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 443 eiween oO and (10 nut appear at the :ter in the whole le family, occupy nt, from Russian ; also nini'itime in lei'ica, unci extend on the north « ith s Bay, across the ish Oregon to the groups, siihtend io the territory of >ees, Chippewas, ,rea of the Algon- rea comprised the ards as far as the country iii>jhided e considered as in 1:1 0U9 and warlike r the vast prairie iin. To quote the 1 the most typical le earliest descrip- spectiiig the phy- 1 Race are chiefly he Alo;nn(|uin and was the region of ^olooch and Atha- f general designa- .)gicully, the liuiils e most important tlie iiatiiie of the the nunibeis and ed oil tile Reports and the wiiole, it relial.le sf.urces in rsent state of our n's Ray teiritories iresent Committee locky Mountains, 1 ancl the extent of lean continent, the this painful fact is vriler, speaking of as Dr. M'Laughlin ert believes, nine- ncipally fever and redis])osinsr causes, rcourse with Euro- reatment." lease of the game ict is one of great ul as it is also inti- Jiay Company, it lence f)f epidemic tiler of a teniporaiy ve employed their resting the spread :arijful attention of y's system in the luuting population, and the fate of its les of export from le Indians; and to it of the returns, it is pursued by them very lor beyond what would be required to supply the pet onal wants '^Ppendix, No. 16. of a simple people subsisting by the chase. Differing wholly in its nature from a trade in "~~~ maimliK-tured articles, demand does not in this case increase supply, but the ratio is necessarily reversed. It is asserted, indeed, that the Company's regulations prevent, as far as possible, the wanton destruction of the animals producing the finer furs, by discou- rao'ing the trade in the skins of the young and those killed at improper seasons. Such regulations do not extend, however, to the larger animals — the buffalo, tlie moose, and the (leer — whose flesh is adapted for the food of man, immense herds of which are wantonly destroyed for the sake of their tongues alone, to supply a delicacy for the table. It must be obvious that as the demands of such a system increa.«e, the difficultv of meet- ing them becoming proportionately great, the more the furs are required, the greater must be the difficulty in finding and killing the animals; more fatiguing and longer-continued huntmg expeditions are required : and, as the population itself decreases and the hunters become fewer, the labour of procuring the furs becomes more onerous on the survivors. The result is inevitable : the children and old pf rsoiis perish or s'lft'er, and settle:.nent and progressive improvement become impossible Even those acts which exercised nuti\e inge- nuity and skill, and sufHced originally for subsistence suited to their primitive condition and simple wants, are abandoned or forgotten, as the manulactuted articles sold by the Company are olten more eWecti'al as well as more easily obtained. To complete their entire depend- ence upon the Company, they are, bv the custom ot giving all the ai tides supplied to them on credit, invariably kept in debt — another powerful means of repressing the energies and advancement of any people, whether bsrharous or civilised. The practical operation of such a system cannot perhaps be better described than in the words of Mr. M'Lean, himself a partner ol the Hudson's Bay Company, who in his recently published work, " Notes of a Twenty-five years' residence in Hudson's Bay," has the follow- ing remarks on the subject : — " That the Indians wantonly destroy the game in years of deep snow, is true enough, but the s.iow fell to as great depth before the advent of the whites as after, and the Indians were as prone to slaughter the animals then as now, yet game of every description abounded, and want was unknown. To what causes then are we to attribute the present scarcity ? There can be but one answer to the destniction of the animals which the prosecution of t'lC fur trade involves. As the country becomes impoverished, the Company reduce their tji outfits so as to iiisme the same amount of profits, an object utterly beyond their reach, although economy is pushed to the extreme of parsimony; and liiiis while the s;anie becomes scarcer, and the poor natives require more ammunition to procure their living, their means of obtaining it instead of being increased are lessened. The general outfits for the whole northern department, amounted m 1835 to 31,000 /., now (184.5) it is reduced to 15,000 /., of which one-third ai. least is al sorbed by the stores at Rod River settlement, and a considerable portion of the remainder by the officers and servants of the Company throughout the country. I do not believe that more than one-half of the outfit goes to the Indians. While tlie tesources of tiie country are becoming yearly more and more exhausted, the question naturally suggests itself: AVhat is to become of the natives when their lands can no longer furnish the means of subsistence ? This is indeed a serious question, and well worthy ofthe earnest attention of the philanthropist. While Britain makes such strenuous exertions in favour of the sable bondsmen of Africa, and lavishes her millions to free them from the yoke, can nothing be done for the once noble, but now degraded aborigines of America? Are they to be left to the tender mercies ofthe trader, until famine and disease sweep them from the earth .' " — M'Lean, vol. 2, p|). 2j to fisar are graduiilly exteii'liiig over every pait of the country, with the exception of the ij ' prairie districts ; and tlie deplorable consequences they entail upon the suffering and iiel|)less ; natives, are events which mu'-t, perhaps, cause regret rather than censure. To prevent ;| i altogether the occurrence of such calamities may indeed be beyond the power ofthe Com- i pany, and it may be admitted that their treatment of the Indians is as considerate and ,; numane as h consistent with the interests of a body having the primary question of a V', profitable trade as the object of tiieir association. Hut the fact is no less certain and •' } deplorable, that while under the system now in force, w have civen unlimited scope to the Ji cupidity of a company ot traders, placing no stint on their profits, or limits to their power, h I the unhappy race we liave consigned lo their keeping, and from whose toil their profits are Ij wrung, are perishing miserably by (amine, while not a vestiire of an attempt has been made || on the part of their .ulers to imbue them with the commonest arts of civilised life, or to | '^ 0.124 — 's****' 2- 3^^ induce 1 m i i:^ f'^'i li *if' !<,; 444 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM T;1E Appendix, No. :C. induce them to change the prccariouii livelihood ubtoined by the chase for a certain sub- — — sistence derived from the cultivation of the soil. While we are he.'; to introduce the changes, whicli these and similar considerations seem imperatively to call for, from a fear that under a free government the fur trade will suffer from the apjridiended extermination of the fur-bearing animals, the question is irresistibly forced upon us : Are we not already eflecting the same object far more speedily and certainly, by the extermination of the Indian I The capacity of the red men for the hebi^s of civilised life is abundantly demonstrated in the success whioh has attended the efforts of the missionary societies at the Red River settlement, and other parts of the territory. We find there a considerable coninuinity of pure Indian blood, subsisting by agriculture, and in point of intelligence not inferior to the whites of the same rank of life by whom they are surrounded. Famine, with its attendant horrors, is there unknown; population is on the increase; intemperance and the xices usually incidejit to a savage state are declining, if they have not wholly disappeared ; and the inference from the whole is irresistible that the extension of settlement, and a free government in these territories is far more favourable to the moral and intellectual advance- mciilofthe aboriginal race, than the irresponsible and destructive regime of the fur trade. It may be said, indeed, that although the Company have no missions or schools of their own in any portion of their territories, they haveonered no obstacle to their establishment bv benevolent societies from England and Canada; but it is subuiitted that this can scarcely he considered anadequate iiilfilnient of the duties and responsibilities imposed bv their posifiuii. The monopoly of the fur trade, if not a compact for the benefit of the Indian, is an injustice ; as ii deprives him of the fair value of his toil, debars him from intercourse with civilised man, and the ameliorating influences without which he can never rise in the scale of humanity. For tlic last twocenluiies has the right of exclusion been rigidly enforced from the shores (if the Hudson's Bay, and never perhaps in the whole world, and in all time, has a fairer iipporlunity been offered for the regeneration of the Indian race. No surrounding com- niuiiities have acted upon iliem with evil and pernicious influences, no opposing interests have interfered with the most comprehensive and benevolent plans for their amelioration ; they Iv.ivp been cut nff from the intercourse, the contentions, and the contagion of tiie world. And yet what has been the result ? Tlie system which has made the Company prosperous and ))0weiful, hiis made the Indian a slave, and his country a desr;it. He is at this dtiy wandeiing about his native land, without home or covering, as uiucli :i stranger to thf blessings of civilisation as when the white man first landed on his shoies. It is far from the intention of the Society to cast indiscriminate censure upon the servants of tl.e Hudson's I5ay Company, many of whom are without doubt benevolent and humane, as well as enterprising and intelligent. But it must be obvious that their character and habits as well as the policy of the Company, arc a'ike unfavourable to that progressive settlement and civilisation of the country which has been going on in so remarkable a manner to the south of the 'Jritish and American boundary, and the question really comes to be whether these territories are to remain a wilderness till the tide of population bursts in upon them, over a conventional line from a country where the possessory rights eitticr of Indians or civilised states are little regarded, or be opened up under the auspices of the Canadian (iovernnient, whose interest in the welfare and improvement of the native race living under its jurisdiction, the society is thankful to acknowledge. The recent enactment of the pro- vincial Legislature, conferring on them the right of suffrage, is one of the most hopeful character, as if admits them to full participation in the privileges and duties of British subjects. In pleading for the extension of the Government of Canade over the Indian tribes of Hudson's Bay, the Society indulge the hope that similar rights will be accorded to them, and that the necessary measures will betaken for promoting their moral and relitjious improvement by settling them on lands of their own, instructing them in the arts of civilised life, and by the establishment of missions and schools, bringing within the reach oftrvery member of the community the means of Christian training and instruction. 18 May 1857. Signed on behalf of the Ccmmittee. H. N. Fowler, Chairman. F. W, Chesson, Secretary. LETTER from F. W. Chesson, Esq., Sp''fetary to the Aborigines Protection Society, to the Right Hon, //. L,a()oucliere,yi.p., Chairman, 19, Harpur-street, Bloomsbury, W, C, Sir, 7 June 1857. On behalf of the Aborigines Protection Society, I beg to forward you a letter which has been addressed to them by Peguis, chief of the Salteaux tribe, at the Red River settle- ment, detailing some of the grievances of which he alleges he has to complain under tbe present government of the country. The letter, I am informed, is in tlie handwriting ot his son, and may be regarded as a creditable proof of Indian capacity. The settlement over which the chief Peguis presides is a remarkable example of the improvement of which the Indian race is capable. The great majority of the tribe are settled down as farmers, but singularly enough they furnish the only harness maker and tinsmiths which the lied River settlement possesses. No better proof of their high moir.1 condition could be SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 445 be wished for than the fact thut, despito m»ny cases of p.iveity and wan* >• '. exist among them, " there is not a locked or a barred door at night even during i ■ l.cs of sleep, from one end of tlie settlement to the other." I beg respectfully to express the hope that you will deem the facts contained in Peguis's letter to be of suttieient importance to bring them before the Select Committee on the Hudson's Bay Territories, and tiierebv render an act of ju-stice to one of Her Majesty's oldest and most devoted servants. I have, ice. (signed) F. W. Chesson, Secretary. Appcmtix, No. ifi. 'rotection Society, LETTER from Pegnis, Chief of the Saulteaux Tribe at the Red River Settlement, to the Aborigines Protection Society, London. Gentlemen, Many winters ago, in 1812, the lands along the Red River, in the Assiniboiu country, on which I and the tribe of Indian of whom I am chief, then lived, were taken possession of without permission of n.yself or my tribe by a body of white settlers. For the sake of peace I, as the representative of my tribe, allowed them lo remain on our lands on their promising that we should be well paid for them by a great chief, who was to follow them. This great chiefi whom we call the Silver Chief (the Earl of Selkirk), arrived in the spring- after the war between the North-west and Hudson's Bay Compaiiies (1817). He told us he wanted our land for some of his countrymen, who were very pnor in tiieir own country, iuid I consented, on the condition, that he paid well for my tribes' lands, he could h.ive from the confluence of the Assiniboin to near Maple-sugar I^oint, on (lie Red River (a dis- tance of 20 or 24 miles), following the course of the river, and as far back on each side of the river as a horse could be seen under (easily distinguished). The Silver Chief told us he had little witli which to pay us for our lands when he made this arrangement, in consc- (pience of the troubles with tlie North-west Compiiny. He, however, asked us what we most required for tlie present, and we told him we would be content till the following vear, when he. promised again to return, to take only aiuinunitiou and tobacco. The Silver Chief never returned, and either his son or the Hudson's Bay Company have ever ■■'nee paid us annually for our landa only the small quantity of aniinunition and tobacco which, in the first instance, we took as preliminary to a final bargain about our lands. This surely was repaying me very jioorly tor having saved the Silver Chiefs life, for the year he came here Guthbert Grant, with 116 warriors, had assembled at White-horse Plain, intending to waylay him somewhere on the Red River. I no sooner heard of this than I went to Guth- bert vjrrant, and tcld him, if he came out of the White-horse Pain where his warriors were assembled, I should meet him at Sturgeon Creek with my entire tribe, who were then much more numerous than they are now, and stand or fall between him and the Silver Chief. This had the desired effect, and Mr. Grant did not make the attempt to harm the Silver Chief, who came as he went, in ])eace and safety. Those who iiave since held our lands, not only pay us only the same small quantity of ammunition and tobacco, which was first paid lo us as a preliminary to u. final bargain, but they now claim all the lands between the Assiniboin and Lake Winipeg, a quantity of land nearly double of what was first asked from us. We hope our Great Mother will not allow us to be treated so unjustly as to allow our lands to be taken from us in this way. We are not only willing but very anxious after being paid for our lands, that the whites would come and ^t'ttle down among us, fur we have already derived great benefits from their iiaving done so, ilm' 's, not the traders, but the farmers. The traders have never done any- thing but rob and k,.j> us poor, but the farmers have taught us how to farm and raise oattle. To the missionaries especially we are indebted, for they tell us ev-?ry praying d.iy (Sabbath) to be sober, honest, industrious, and truthful. They iiave told us liie good news that Jesus (Jhrist so loved the world that he gave himself for it, and that this was one of the first messages to us, " Peace on earth and good will to man." We wish to practise these ffood rules of the whites, and hope the Great Mother will do the same to us, and not only protect us from oppression and injustice, but grant us all the privileges of the whites. We have many things to complain of against the Hudson's Bay Conipanv. They pay us little for our furs, and when we are old are left to shift for ourselves. We could name many old men who have starved to death in sight of many of the Company's principal torts. W"heii the Home Government has sent out questions to he answered in this country about the treatment of the Indians by the Company, the Indians have been told if they said any- thing against the Company they would be driven away from their homes. In the same way when Indians have wished to attach themselves to missions, they have been boih threatened and used badly. When a new mission has been "stablished, the Company has at once planted a post there, so as to prevent Indians froiii attaching themselves to it. They have been told they are fools to listen to missionaries, and d:"! only starve and become lazy under them. We could name many Indians who have been pn •••ented by the Com- pany from leaving their trading posts and Indian habits when they have wished to attach themselves to missions. When it is decided that this country is to be more extensively settled by the whiles, and before whites will be again peimitted to take possession of our lands, we wish that a fair 0.2^. — SesB, 2. 3 K 3 and M I li^ 1 i i/i '■'II 446 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM TflE P i Appendix, No. iG. a.iil imitimlly mlvuntiiueous tnuty be (.'iitfired into witli my Mijn- for tlieir lamU, mid we ■""" ask, whenever this trjaty is to l)t' entertd iiiio, u wise, (iisL'rent, and hoiiourabi' nn, who n known to have the iiilerent* of tiio Ii.dian at hriirt, nuy be selected on the i«iH>< .j !" Indian to see tiiat he is fairly and justly dealt with for his land, and that frmn the 'msi it be horne in mind, that in securint; our own advantages, we wi-'Ii alHo to secure those 44 our ciiildren and their children's children. 1 commit these my rcqneais to you as n body now «ell known by uh ti have the welfare of llic poor Indian at heart, and in committins this to von in behalf of myself, do 80 also on behalfof my tiil>e, who are as one man in feeluig:ind deaires on these matters. Will you, then, use the proper means of bringing; these our complauits and desires in a be- coroin|r and respectful manner hotli before the Great Council of the nation (Parliament), and through it to our Great Mother (the Queen), who will show iierself more truly grtjat and good by protecting liie helpless from injustice and oppression than by niaKing great conquef.t». I wive you at the end of this such certificates of character as I hold from the Silver Chief (Loid Selkirk) and the Governor of Rupert's Land (Sir Gecv^e Simpson), I liuve also a British flag and valuable medal from our Great Mother (the Queen), which I treasure above all earthly things. f Wishing that the Great Spirit may give you every good thing, and with warmest thanks for your friendship, I remain, gentlemen, your true friend, (lis Peguis, + or Wm. Prince, mark. Chief of the Sauiteaux Tribe at lied River. The bearer Peguis, one of the principal chiefs of the Chepeways or Sauiteaux of Red Itiver, has been a steady friend of the settlement over since its first establishment, and has never deserted its cause in its greatest reverses. He has often exerted his influence to restore peace, and having rendered most essential services to the settlers in their distress, deserves to be treated with (avour and distinction by the officers of the Company, and by ' all ihe (Hends of peace and jiood order. Fort Douglas, -20 July 1811 (signed^ Selkirk. The, e are to certify that Peguis, the Saulteiiux Indian chief, has uniformly been friendly to the '.vliites, well-disposed towards the settlement at Red River, and altojvetlier a steady, intelli;;ent well-conducted Indian. In consideration of these lacts, and being now in the decline of life, unable to maintdn himself and family by the produce of the chase al ine, it is hereby certified that I have assured him an annuity for life from the Honourable Hudson's Bay Company of 5 /. sterling, commencing with a payment of that amount this day. (signed) George Simpson. Fort Garry, 1 January 1835. Appcidix, No. 17. Appendix, No. 17. LIST of the Adventurers of England trading into Hudson s Bay, November 185 Selkirk. George Simpson. November 185ti. or more. Block, Saiiiiiel Richard, and WiUiuin. Bousfield, Martha. Boiixfield, VVilliHiii, dt^ceased. ISroiightoii, Rev. Thomas Delven, and Franr<8. Bruut;lit nnis Edward. Laing, Thomas Josiah. l.eigh, James B.Koks. *Lucas, Josiah, deceased. Lucas, Josiah, deceased, and T. J. Laing. •Lucas, Samuel Lucas Lancaster, and others. *.Madan, Fredfirir!-. Marindin, Henry .'iichfivd. Marjoribanks, Edward, and Sir Edmund Antrobus, bart. Marsh, Emma. Marshall, Sir Charles. •Matheson, Alexander. Malheson, Thomas. Mayl'c ^Ivirles, and others. i !l 0.24 — Ses<. -J. 3 K4 *Mechi, w u 448 APPENDIX TO BFPOirr FROM THE Appendix, Nu. 17. m. > h !■ *Meclu, John Jooepli uiid (ii'orge Chamber!. •Miller, KIi/iiIh>iIi, decr«»c(l. *MiiU, Joliii UeiiiiniiUin. Millf, John Remington, and olhern, •Mills*, TliomaH. Milner, Agnes. f 'Iner, Mnry Eleanor. ^ .ler, John, decenited. ft.itchell, Sai'ii'i Anna, iind Williom Robert. Mitchell, William Robert. Moore, Charlotte, the yom.^or. Mo8er, Roger. Newbury, Ge".is. Strong, Rev. Clement, d'-ii.'nwiJ. Strong, Henry Linwood, uud otherfc. •Stuurl, Charles •Temple, Frederic James Henry, and Thomas Ramshay Smvth. •Thelluson, Charles Subine Aucuslus, and others. •Tliornlhwaite, Tlmuias. •Thwuyles, Ann. •Tonilin, James, deceased. Tiotter, Sir Coults, deceased, and Edward Marjoribanks. , V'achell, Horatio, and Tonfield. Vesey, Elizabeth Margaret. \'esey, George. ^'ll;ne, Augustus. •V'igiie, Thomas, deceased. Wales, Mary. i •Walker, Isaac, deceased. Warner, Edward. Webb, Rev. Robert Hoiden. Wedmore, 'Hiomas. Weekes, Nathaniel. ♦Welhank, Robert. Wells, William Frederick, deceased. WelU, Emma Anne, and Louisa- Wheeler, Charles West. •Wheeler, George, deceased, and Henry, deceaseil. Wheeler, George, deceased, and others. Wheeler, Thomas Lowe, deceased. Wheeler, Thomas Rivi'igton. Wheeler, Thomas, deceased, nnd James Low'*. White, Churles. White, John, deceased. •Wi<;rain, Loftus Tottenham. •Wilby, Thouiiis. Wilby, Warner. Wilson, John, and William Featherstyn. Wix, Jane, and others. Wix, William. Woodhouse, Francis Lewis Philij) Secrctan Woods, William Leyland. Wornianld, John, and others. Worth, Henry John, deceased. Wright, Edward. Wynford, the Right Hon. Wilhaiu San.uel, uaron, and others. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S UAY COMPANY. 449 Uenrv. and Appendix, No. IH. liKTTEn from R. G. Smith, Km\., Secrcfiiry to the HudHou'f* Buy CoiniMiny, to //. Mrrivale, Esq.; with KncKiMuruH. Sir, IludnonV Diiy HollH(^ 8 June 1R.57. In r()ii!ne«> of a cotnmunicntion iimilc to thoin by Mr, Kdwanl Klli<'c, the (roM-rnor iiid Committee of the HudiwuiV Buy ('ompnny have Jirected lue to forward the oiicloiied HtntcmentM fur the intorinution of Mr. .Secrotiiry Liihouchern. I have, &C. (signed) H. G. Smith, Secretary. Appendix, No. i% Capital employed hy the Iludson'd Bay Com|ta)iy. 1 June 18,16: Amount of AHM't- Amouiit .)f Liabilities - CAi'iTvr. - - .£. Connistirig of — Stock, Ntnndin;; in the names of the proprietors Valuation of tlie Conijiany's lands and bnildi'ii;:<, exclusive of V cou\crV Island and Oregon - - - - - Amount expended up to Kith September 18,56, in sendiM;; nnd labourers to Vancouver's Island, in the coal mine.H, an^ m objects of colonisation, exclusive of the trading estublishnuiits tiu' Company, and which amount will be i-cpayablc by Govoi.. mcnt if jK)ssossion of the island is resumed - - . _ Amount invested in Fort Victoria and other estahlishmcnta and posts in Vancouver's Island, Tiiis amount, is not exactly ascer- tained, as the hint accounts have not been received from Fort Victoria, but is estimated at -.-.... Amount paid to the Earl of Selkirk for llcil River Settlement Property and investments in the territory of Oregon, ceded to the United States by the treaty of 1846, and which arc secured to the Company as iH)88essory righti) under that treaty, 1,000,000 dollars, say -.-------- £. t. d. l,4f.8,;J01 16 3 303,233 16 11 1,26.5,067 10 4 500,000 - .. .i 18,884 12 8 87,071 8 3 75,000 - 84,111 18 5 200,000 - - 1,265,067 19 4 DisTiimuTiON of PuoFiTS to tho Shareholders of the Hudson's Bay Company, for tho Years 1847 to 1856, both inclusive. MABKKT rillCES OK STOCK, JSI* DIVIDEND, January. July. £. ». d. £. s. d. 1847 10 per cent, dividend - . . - - • ... 200 - - 1848 10 „ ditto . 200 - - 200 - - 1849 10 „ ditto - 200 - - 200 - - 1850 20 „ ditto, of which 10 per cent, added to stock was"! 200 - - 210 - - 1851 10 „ ditto . 205 - - 210 - - 1852 15 „ ditto, of which 5 per cent, added to stock - was"! -1 205 - - 215 - - 1853 18. 4. 6. p'ct. ditto, of which 8/. As. f,d. per was added to stock cent."! 220 - - 225 - - 1854 10 per cent dividend - - - - - - 220 - - 210 - - 1855 10 „ ditto 202 10 - 207 10 - I85(i 10 „ ditto - 195 - 200 - - Of 2f)8 proprietors in July 1856, 196 have purchased their stock at from 220 to 240 per cent. Hudson's Bay House, London, 5 June 1857. s 0,24— Scss. 2, 3L i IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I IIM I 50 1^ iL 1.8 1.25 1.4 16 ^ 6" ► V] y Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, on the subject of the Establishment of a Repeesentative Assembly at Vancouver's Island. SCHEDULE. DESPATCHES FROM THE RIGHT HON. H. LABOUCHERE, M. P. ia SeiiM. Dtte. 1 28 Feb. 1856 No. 6. 2 28 Aug. 1 800 No. 10. 3 21 Oct. 1830 No. 18. 4 10 Nov. 1856 No. 19. 5 24 Jan. 1857 No. 4. 6 24 Mar. 1857 No. 0. 10 II 12 13 SUBJECT. Dircctirin; that a Rcpreseniative Assembly be convoked without loss of time. Iniitriictions and Suf^estions for his guidance - Acknowlcdginf; his Despatches of 22d May and 7th June. Instructions in regard to his proposals for an Extension of tbe Suffrage ..-...- .. Acknowledging his Despatch of the 22d July, enclosing Minutes of Council, and Copy of Proclamation convening Assemblies of Freeholders in the Island ...... Acknowledging his Speech on Opening the Session of the Legislature. Difficultiis experienced in forming a Committee to inquire into the validity of Disputed Elections Acknowledging his Despatch of 31st October, reporting the Proceedings of the House of Assembly . . . . P<«e. 451 452 452 452 433 Acknowledging his Despatch of the 9th January, reporting the Proceedings of tbe House ot .Vsi-embly to the 18th December ; 1856 1 453 DESPATCHES FROM GOVERNOR DOUGLAS. 22 May 1850 Apkiiowleildiiii; Dosputitli of 2»tl) February, conveying Instruc- No. lv>. tions ill ri'turence to tlie formation of a Kepresentalive Assein- (Extract.) bly in Vancouver's Island ...•--- 453 J 7 June 1850 Reporting the Steps taken in carrying out the Instructions No. 14. j conveyed in Despatcli, of 28th February .... 454 Extract.) I 22 July 1856 Enclosing Minutes of Council of 4th and 9th June. Reporting No. 15. the termination of the Elections, and that the Assembly is (Extract.) convened (or the 12th August '454 20 Aug. 1850 No. 19. (Extract.) Reporting the 0|ii'ning of the House of Assembly on 12th i August. Enclosing his Address on the Occasion. Election , of a Speuker, and Petitions against the Keturn of certain Members ...--...-- 458 31 Oct. 1850 ! Reporting further Proceedings of the Assembly, and the Ad- No. 30. I ju^lment, without his interterence, of Party differences 24 Feb. 1857 Acknowledging Mr. Labouchere's Despatches of 21st October No. 5. I and loth November, and reporting further Proceedings of the Legislature, up to 24th February 1857 • - - . 458 Jan. 1857 Further Proceedings of the Assembly, reported up to 18th No. 2. December 1850 450 464 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 451 DESPAICHES FROM THE RIGHT HON. H. LABOUCHERE, m.p., SECRETARY OF STATE. Appendix, No> 19. [^HERE, M. P. ic Instructions — No. 1.— (No. 5.) Copt of DESPATCH from the Right Honourable //. Lahouchere, M.r., to Governor Dowjlat. Sir, Downing-strect, 28 February 1856. By the Coniinission and Instructions which your preclcccasor. Governor Blanchard, received wlien the colony of Vancouver's Island was first founded, he was directed to summon General Assemblies of freeholders, qualified by the ownership of 20 acres of land, and with their advice and that of his Council, to make laws and ordinances for the good government of the island. 2. I am aware that the same Commission contains another clause, professing to empower the Governor to make such laws with the advice of his Council only. Perhaps this was introduced with the view of creating a legislature to meet the immediate wants of the com- munity before Assemblies could be summoned. But I am convinced, as well by the general tenor of the documents themselves as by the information which I have been able to obtain of the intention of Her Majesty's Government in framing them, that it was then contemplated that such Assemblies should be summoned as soon as it should be practicable to do so. 3. Causes over which the local Government had no control, and which are too well known to need recapitulation, have hitherto prevented the settlement from acquiring that development which its founders may have expected. Considering the small number of estiiblishcd colonists, you thought it advisable to act on the power apparently given to your- eelf to conduct the afiiiirs of the island with the advice of your Council only, and to pass certain laws which you considered most required by the exigencies of the time. In doing BO, you ])rocced(.'d on a iiiir understanding of the authority conveyed to you, and Her Majesty's Government are fully satisfied with the course which you took. 4. Nevertheless, it has been doubted by authorities conversant in the principles of colonial law, whether the Crown can legally convey authority to make laws in a settlement founded by Englifihmcn, even for a tcmiMirary and sjiecial purpose, to any legislature not elected •wholly, or in part, by the settlers themsclvc". If this be the case, the clause in your Com- mission on which you relied would ai)pear to be unwarranted and invalid. 5. It appears to Her Majesty's Government, therefore, that steps should be taken at once fur the establishment of the only legislature authorised by the ])resent constitution of the island. I have, accordingly, to instruct you to call together an Assembly in the; terms of your commission and instructions.' 6. For this purpose it will be within your ))ower, as j)rovidcd by the ninth clause of your instructions, to fix the number of representatives, and, if you should consider it essential, to divide the colony into districts, and to establish separate polling-places, although with so small a number of settlers you may find this ine.\[)edicnt. 7. I leave it to your local knowledge and discretion, with the advice of your Council, to suggest to the Assembly, when thus summoned, to imss such measures as you may yourself deem most required, and in particular, such as may be necessary, in order to leave no doubt of the validity ol" proceedings already taken without the authority of an Assembly. 8. But it appears to me, that in a community containing so very limited a mmiber of inhabitants, tne maintenance of a constitution on the model of those considerable colonics, with a House of Representatives and a Council, may be inexpedient ; and that a smaller and more select body will, for the present, and j)robabIy for some years to come, perform in a satisfactory manner the functions really required in the jjresent stage of jjrogress of the island. 9. Such a body, however, can bo constituted only by enactment of the Legislature, authorised by the Commission, thnt is to say, of the Assembly and Council, together with yourself. It would be no unusual circumstance for a legislature thus constituted to surrender Its powers into the hands of a single chamber. It has been successfully done in some of the smaller West India Islands. 10. I leave it to yourself to consider, with the advice of the local authorities, the numbei's and proper qualification of the members of such a single Council ; but in the event of your determining to introduce the elective principle into it, a certain proportion, not less than one-third, should be nominated by the Crown. The power of assenting to, or negativing, or suspending, for the assent of the Crown, the measures passed by such a Council, should be distinctly reserved to yourself; and it is very essential that a constitutional law of this descri])tion should contain a proviso, reserving the initiation of all money votes to the local Government 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 L 2 11. An No.l. Right Hon. H. La- houchere, M.P., to Governor Douglas, 28 Feb. 1856. ''^1 li;;:.: n v' 1 452 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE I ■■ Appeidix, No. 19. 11. An additional rcnson in favour of the course 'vliich I now prcsoribe (namely, tliat of — calling together the Aseenibly, and then, if the Legisilature so created think proper, esta- l)li8hing n simpler form of government) is to be found in the circumstance tiiat the relations of the Hudson's Bay Company with the Crown must necessarily imdergo revision l)eforo or in the year 1859. Tlie position and future government of Vancouver's Island will then unavoidably pass under review, and if any ditticulty should be experienced in carrying into execution any present instructions, u convenient oi)iKirtunity will be aifordcd for recon- sidering them. 12. I am aware that Her Majesty's Government arc imposing on you a task of snnio difficulty as well as responsibility in giving you these instructions, especially as they have to be carried into execution with so small an amount of assistance as the present circiunstanccs of your settlement attbrd. Hut I have every reason to rely on your abilities and public spirit ; and you may, on your part, rely on the continuance of such assistance and support as Her Majesty's Government can render you, and on their making full allowance for the peculiarities of your position. No. 2. Right Hon. H. I^- bouchere, m. p., to Governor Douglas, 93 Aug. 1856. •Pages 453. 454- I have, &c (signed) //. Lahouchere. — No. 2.— (No. 16.) Copy of DESPATCH from the Right Honourable //. Lahouchere, m.t., to Governor Douglas. Sir, Downing-street, 23 August 1836. I HAVE to acknowledge the receipt of your despatches, Nos. 12 and 14,* of the 22d of May and the 7 th of June last. I am very sensible of the responsibility imposed upon you by my despatch of the 28th of February last, instructing you to convoke a Legislative Assembly, but I am satisfied, from your language, that you are fully prepared to encounter that responsibility, and to take the necessary steps. With respect to the franchise, you have, I do not doubt^ very good reason for considering that it is too much restricted by the terms of your Commission. It seems to me, however, tliat the best course will be not for the present to alter the Commission ; but th.at you should act on it in the first instance, and bring upon the Assembly convoked with it, a measure for extending the suffrage in the manner which you propose. I liave, &c. (signed) //. Lahouchere. iii-lr '■ *j|(iii;|-. . .1 "inHn' "''' |HJHir.: ' |oni;/'Mto thcRif^ht Hon. H. Labouchere, m.p.; dated Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 7 June 185fi. (Ilecelvfd, 12 August 1850.) (Aniwereil, No. 10, 23 August 1850, p-igp 462.) SiNCK I had tlio lionour of addressing you on the 22d May last,* I have held a mcet- in{t of Council for the purpose of taking into consideration the instructions contained in your despatch, No. 5, respecting tlic summoning of Assemblies of the freeholders of this colony. I read to Council a dr.ift of the proclamation which I intend to issue for convening the Assembly; jiroposcd that the island should bo divided into four electoral districts, and should return seven members ; and that the pri)perty (jiialificatiou of members should be freehold estate of the value and not lower than 300/. sterling. The property qualification of voters to be according to the terms of Her Majesty's Couuuission, 20 acres or upwards of freehold land. The Council adjourned without coming to any decision till to-morrow, for the better consideration of the subjects laid before them- ■ m The proclamation for convening the freeholders will probably be issued in the course of this week, .ind the Assembly will probably meet about the first week in August. There will be a difficulty in finding properly qualified representatives ; and I fear that our early attempts at legislation will make a sorry figure ; though, at all events, they will have the effect you contem])late, of removing all doubts as to the validity of our local enactments. — No. 9.— I ' 'h ! ! 1;->^ >>tA No. 9. Governor Douglas to Right Hon. H. Labouchere, M.r., 33 July 1856. t Supra. (Ni. 1.5.) ExTKACT of DESPATCH from Governor Douglas ia the Right Hon. //. Labouchere, yi. p. ; dated Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 22 .fuly 1856. (Received, 14 October 1850.) (Answered, No. 18, 21 October 1850, pnge 462.) 1 HAVK the honour of enclosing herewith minutes of the proceedings in the Council of Vancouver's Island, on the 4th and 9th of June last. I stated in my connnunication of the 7th of June,t the subjects which had been laid before the Council on the 4th of that month. The propositions in respect to the convening and constitution of the Assembly were approved and (Misted without alteration at the meeting of the 9th of June. In order to suit the circumstances of the colony, the pi"operty ense altogether with the projierty qualification. You will observe by the said minutes, that absentee proprietors of freehold estates are allowed to vote through their resident agents or attorneys, after the example of British Guiana. The division of the settlements into four electoral districts admits of a more equal repre- sentation, and has given more general satisfaction to the colonists than a single \to\\ oi>ened in any one district. The electors are so few in number, that the returns were mere nominations in all the districts with the exception of Victoria, where the contest was stoutly maintained by iio fewer than five rival candidates. 'I'he elections are now over, and the Assembly is convened for the 12th day of August. ir;. £nc. 1, in No. 9. Enclosure 1, in No. 9. Whereas it having pleased Her most Gracious Majesty, our Lady the Queen, in a Commiision under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, constituting me, James Douglas, (iovernor of Vancouver's Island and its dependencies, to authorise, empower, and command me in thi, .nanuer and terms following ; to wit. We do hereby give and grant unto you full power and authority, with the advice and consent of our said Council, from time to time, as need shall reauire, to summon and call general assemblies of the inhabitants, owning 20 or more acres of freehold land within the said island and its dependencies under your Government, in such manner and form, and according to such powers, instructions, and authorities oa shall be at any time hereafter granted or appointed under oiu: sign manual and signet, or by our order in our Privy Council, or by us, through oneof our Principal Secretancs of State ; and our will and pleasure is, H. Lnbouchere, si. p. ; irrow, for the better //. Labouchere, 51. p. ; 12th day of August. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 455 IS, that the persons thereupon duly elected by the major part of the said freeholders, and so Appendi*, No. ig. returned, bIioII, before their sitting, uko the oath of allegiance ; which oath you shall couimission fit jmrtions under the public seal of our said island and \i» dependencies to ■■'•< tender and administer unto them, and until the same shall be so tnkcn, no person shall be capable of sitting, though elected. And we do hereby declare, that the persons so elected and qualified, shall be called and deemed the General Assembly of our said island of Vancouver. And whereas Her most Gracious Majesty having further, in her aforesaid instructions in that behalf, commanded and authorised me in the terms and manner following, viz. : — You are therefore, for the purpose of electing tlie members of such assemblies, hereby authorised to issue a proclamation, declaring tlie number of representatives to be chosen by such freeholdi^rs, to serve in the said Generi.I Assembly, and if you should sec fit, dividing our said island and its de|)endencie8 into districts or counties, towns or townships, and declaring the number of re|)resentatives to be chosen by each of such dijftricts or counties, towns or townships respectively. And you are hereby authorised and empowered to nominate and appoint proper persons to execute the office of returning officer in the said island, or in such districts or counties, towns or townships respectively ; and you arc, as soon as ;'ou shall see expedient, to issue writs in our name, directed to the proper officers in the said island, or the proper officers in such districts or counties, towns or townships respectively, directing them to summon the aforesaid freeholders to proceed to the election of persons to represent them in the General Assembly, according to the regidations and directions to be signified in the pro- clamation to be issued by you as aforesaid. Now let it be known imto all Her Majesty's loving subjects of Vancouver's Island, and Its dependencies, that I, James Douglas, Governor of the said island and its dependencies, with the advice and consent of the Council, have issued out writs in due form and accord- ing to law, calling a General Assembly of the freeholders aforesaid of Vancouver's Island and ita dependencies, for the purpose of electing members to serve in the said General Assembly, which writs are to be returnable on Monday the 4th day of August next, and that the said election shall be held at the several precincts hereinafter appointed and named. And also, that the said freeholders shall thereupon proceed to elect seven fit and discreet person* to serve in the said General Assembly. And also, that we have divided tlie said island and its dependencies into districts, as follows ; to wit, District of Victoria. 1 District of Nanaimo. District of Esquimalt and Metchosen. | District of Soke. And also, that the number of representatives shall be as follows ; to wit. District of Victoria -.--.. .3 members. District of Esquimalt ond Metchosen - - - - 2 members. District of Nanaimo .......\ member. District of Soke --- 1 member. And also, that we have hereby constituted and appointed the following persons returning officers for the aforesaid districts ; to wit, Andrew Muir - - - - Victoria District. Herbert W. O. Margary - - Esquimalt and Metchosen District. Charles E. Stuart . - - Nanaimo District. John Muir, jun. ... Soke District. And also, that the said returning ofiicers shall be directed to give due and proper notice of the place and time at which the poll is to be taken in each of such districts respectively. Given under my hand and seal, at Government House, Victoria, this 16th day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty-six, and in the nineteenth year of Her Majesty's reign. (signed) James Douglas, Governor. God save the Queen. 0.84— Sess. 2. at 4 !i M > '1|m; Appendix, No. ig. Kucl. i, in No. y. I :■ t' 15 I 466 APPENDIX TO HEPORT FROM THE EncloHurc 2, in No. 9. Minute of Council. Vancoiivcr'tf Idliind, 4 J line 1856. ' The Council Imvinp met this morning, imrttuniit to Hummona, the Governor being {irosent, and tlic following mcniberK ; to wit, .John Toil, senior member, Jauici* CoojKir, todcrick Finlaytton, John Work, — The (iovernor proceeded to lay before the Council e(!rt«in inxtructiona lately received by him from the Socretiiry for the C'olonieH, instructing him to call general asHcinblies of the ])Cople for the purpoxe of carrying llcr Majesty 'n instruetion.s fully into cii'cct ; aud the Council adjourned at 5 o'clock p.m. till Monday the 9tii of June. 9 Juno 1856. The Council having met this morning, pursuant to adjournment, the Governor Insing present, and the following members ; to wit, John Tod, senior member, James Cooper, John AVork, — Kcsumc the con>>ideration of Her Majesty's instructions for calling general assemblies of the freeholders of Vancouver's Island. The subjects under consideration on the 4th instant wore as follows ; to wit, The property tpialification of members serving in the general assembly. The jiroperty (jualification of voters. Tlic right of absentee proprietors to be represented in the general assembly. The Governor laid down as a princi|tle that the custom or practice observed in England should, as far as possible, be adopted in this colony in framing the rules for elections, and proposed. That the ownership of 300 /. of freehold property or inunovable estate should con- stitute the ((ualification of a member of the Assembly. That absentee projjrictora shall bo permitted to vote througli their agents or attorneys. Tliiit the u;{li tile hlcHninv of (icul, tlioy liiivc licrn kept from I'oniinittini; iictH of cix'n violcii 1(1 licrn (|iiicl ami (irilrrlv in tlicir lii'iiortnii'iit ; u't tin' picHcnct' ol liirj^c ItoiliiM nf m-n who Imvc never I'elf the rehtiuinin^ inrint'heot of nioriil luul ruli^iouH truiniii);, and neen^ttdincd to I'JIow the iinjiiili^ex of their own ovil natnreH, nntre than the ilietatc* I'nco, and lieen (|niel anil (irilerlv in tlieir lU'iiortinent ; \et the pi-enenee ot liirj^e ItoiinM nf urincd snvageH who nil' of rea.-iiii or jiintiee, given rii-e to a I'ec jinji; of infuourity, whieh mu«t oxiot as ioii)^ im the colony renniin.'* without military proteetion. Her Majpwty'* Oovernntt'iit, «'ver alivo to tlie dangers which l)e»ct the cohmy, have iirranifed with the l>H, by trpatin)^ thum with jin^tioo and forbeiiMince, and I)y ri;;iilly protcctin^i; their civil and agrarian right.'*; many ciigeiit rcaHons of hiiinaiiity itiui hiiuiiiI pohcy recoinniund that eoune to our attention, and I hIuiH thercfure rely upon your !iup|Mirt in carrying iiucli nieusure* into ett'cct. We know, from our own exncrience, that the friendship of the natives in at all times Nspfnl, while it is no 1cm certain that their enmity may liecouu^ mure diMU»triiii!t than any other calamity to whicli the colony indirectly exposed. (ientlemen of the Hoiii^q of Assembly, according to constitutional usage, with you must originate all Money Hills ; it is, thereliue, your s|iecial province to consider the wavs and nieaiiH of defraying the ordinary exmnses of the goverinncnt, either by levying a t'nstoms duty on imports, or by a system of diroiit taxation. The poverty of the country and the li'nited menus of a po|iulation struggling against the pressure of numberle^8 privations, must necessarily restrict the amount of taxation ; it should, therefore, be our constant study to regulate the public expenditure according to the means of the country, and to live strictly within our income. The common error of running into speculative improvements, entailing debt* ujion the colony, for a very uncertain advantage, should be carefully avoided. The demands upon the public revenue, will at present chieHy arise fnmi the ini])rovetnent of the internal communications of the country, and i)roviding (iir the education of the young, the erection ol {ilaces for public worship, the defence of the country, and the adminis'tiation of justice. Gentlemen, I feel, in all its force, the responsibility now resting upon us. The interests and well-being of thousands yet unborn may be affected by our decisions, and they will reverence or condemn onr acts according as they are found to influence for good or for evil the events of the future. Gentlemen of the House of Assembly, I have apjwintcd Chief Justice Cnincron to administer the oath of allegiance to the Members ol your House, and to recei<'e your declarations of qualiiic.ition ; you may then proceed to choose a Speaker, and to appoint the otKccrs necessary for the proper conduct of the business ol the House. (signed) James Douglas, Governor. (No 30.) — No.41. - Copt of DESPATCH from Governor Doiu/las to the Right Honourable J I, Lftl/uHchere, .M. I". 1. Any , Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 31 October 1856. (IlfccivL'ii, 14 January lho7 ) jijr CAn*wcrcd, No. 4, 24 J aiy I8'>7, page 4.53.) I HAVK the honour to acknowledge the receipt of ymir despatch. No. 10* of the 23d of ^iist, in reply lo iny cdnininnications Nos. 1^ and 14 of the 22d May and the 7th of June last7 reporting my procceilings in respect to cinrying out the instrnctions contained in your despatch ot the 28tli Fcliniiiry ISoO, for convoking a Legislative Assembly in this colony, and rciiucsting udvici' and instructions from you on various subjects connected with that measure. 2. I have since, in my several dcspatcbcs of the numbers and dates mentioned in the margin, reported to von'tlic seveial steps taken towards carryinu those instructions into ctlei'^t, and the formal opening of the House of Assembly on the 12th day ol August last, together with the objections raised to the property (|ualitication of certain members, who tiM'k their seats on that occa.sioii, and the consequent difliculty experienced in organising the House. 3. After aiski,:... SELECT rOMMITTKE ON THE IHIDSON'S DAY COMPANY. 4fig uxlitt M long tut th« •t tlio colon V, httvc ' PieHlilcnt ' iVigute HI) (liiiil)t, hv carried y levying iv Customs 3. After ri'iioiited niljciurnmcnt (, tho Sppiikcr, with miirh tnrt Hnd nddrcM, finally mc- Apptntlix. No. ly. cocdod, witiioiit my intfrlrn c, in aiyiiMtinj^ piirly dirt'Tcnccs mid I'orniinK " '■ inittt'c, whicli inn liiiti'ly iirocccclcd with iin in<|uiry inl" thi( onditurt<. — ^Mr. Pemberton.) ilrl' > b. S ■ ■} Addronn, No. 13. Thiit thix IIoiiHc ii prepared to roocivo any moiiMgu from hit Ksccllenoy the Oovornor or Council.— (Mr. .Skinner.) SCHEDULE. No. 1.— A writ for a new election of one oitixen for tho town of Victori«; with return from Hlieriff. Na 2.— Charter of jjrant of Vuncouver'ii Ulimd to tho IIudHon'ii Bay ('omiHiny, dated l.*) .Iiinuarv 1H49, and corrui*pondcncc between tho Colontnl Oihoe and thn Htidi-oii'8 liuy Company thereon: with circular, colonisation of VanoouverV Ixlanil. No. 3. — Extract-* from the Oovemnr'n dcB|)atch to William G. Smith, BUq., Secretary, Hud«on'i Hay Com|)any, dated 16 October 1850. No. 4. — Extracttt from the Governor'* derpatrh to William G. Smith, Secretary, Hudi-on'n liuy Company, dated 19 July 1895. Government IIourc, Victoria, Vancouver'* Island, 27 November 1836. Mr. Sjicaker and Gentlemen of the House of Assembly, I iiEREwrrii trannmit the documents described in the accompanying schedule, for your information. Tho colonial account.'*, extending to tho close of 1855, are not yet completed, und therefore caimot he laid before the House m full. You will, however, find, among the documents now transmitted, a full account of all lands appertaining to the public domain of this colony, which have been sold up to the lOth day of October last, and idso a classified abstract of the expenditure of tho colony, for the year ending with the 1st day of November 1855. In addition to the proceeds arising from sales of the public domain ai)pcaring in the documents herewith, the sum of 6,19.3 /. has been received from tho Hudson's Bay Company, for londs purchased on their account within the colony. Further documents, relative to tho financial state of the colony, will be sent to the Houkc as soon as they are made up. I have to recommend that a su'ticiont money appropriation be made by the House to defray the expense of preparing any documents required for their information in future, a.* there are at present no funds at my disposal for that purpose. I beg that the charter of grant of Vancouver's Island may bo returned when convenient, 08 I have no other copy. , (signed) Jamet Dotuflas, Governor, Vancouver's Island. . \ ■ ;^ J 1 I tfc Extracts from the Governor's Despatch to Wiltiam G. Smith, Esq., Secretary, Hudson's Bay Company, dated 16 October 1856. I HAVE the honour of transmitting herewith a statement of the lands, forming part of the public domain, which have been sold in this colony since tho 12th day of .July 1855, up to the 10th day of this present month of October 1856. You will observe, by statement No. 1, that tho whole quantity of land sold since last year, nmountii to 2,137 acres. The extent of unimprovable rock, added to tho allowance mode for roads, somewhat exceeds 837 acres, leaving 1,299 acres 3 roods and 26 perches chargeable to purchasers, on which 512^ 17 «. 6(/. nas been already paid in, and there remains payable by annual instalments the sum of 787 A 0«. 10 rf. The public expenditure of tlie colony for the twelvemonth ending with the Ist day ol November 1855, amounts to the sum of 4,107/. 2». 3rf. The income arising from the duty on licensed houses, sales of public land, and other aourcea, produced the sum ol 693/. 2«. 10. i;). M will nppear in the followin)^ exhibit of the public object« to which that outlay waa applied ; vix. : I Oovernment premiaea - Surveying de|Htrtnient HU|)plie« „ „ wage* ('onxtruction of bridge* „ of roailii - £.183 18 1 500 - - 720 14 7 «67 10 10 Victoria church - - - Public Kchoole - . - Victoria parHonago Chaplain, aalnry and board • Collector'* office - - - PiK)r-rttte* - - - - Adminiatmtion of justice Oaol expenses . . - Militia . - . - Sundry expenses Overcnarge from lost account The sums placed to credit of the colony are as follows ; viz. :— Sundry credit* - - - - - - -£.1854 Land sales, &c. ------- •Duty on licensed houses - - . . - 334 17 6 340 - - Leaving a balance upaid an beforosaid of - - £. t. d. 7 6 10 683 18 I 1,388 5 5 877 1 - 330 4 II 117 9 4 36H 7 1 1 7 6 10 10 3 100 - - 30 9 3 81 » 8 107 14 1 12 - 11 4,107 2 3 693 2 lU 3,413 19 5 There is a further sum of 65/. 6«. 8rf., arising from proceeds of land sales effected last year, which was omitted in the fur trade books, but will be brought forward this year. ic sent to the Houkc id when convenient. Secretary, Hudson's Extract from the Governor's Despatch to fVilliam G. Smith, Esq., Secretary, Hudson's Bay Company, dated 19 July 1855. A COMPLETE account of all the land sales {lee No. 1) made on Vancouver's Island, the Company's purchase at Nanaimo excepted, since the commencement of the colony, is here- with transmitted. A proportion of the land has hevn paid only in part, but the payments will be completed as soon is the title-deeds are reatly for issue, otherwise the titles will not be issued to the purchaser. I £. *. d. The amount of receipts for land sold, and stamps, as per this account, is - 6,871 9 4 £. I. rf. Kcmitted, per last account, dated 10th October 1853 - 3,577 5 2 Paid by the Puget's Sound Company in London - - 2,574 - - Pwd by W. C. Grant and J. Huggins in London - 120 - - Uemains on hand - As per Statement No. 2 : 200/. of this balance was paid over to the fur trade — say bill from Arthur W. Owen - - £.150 Transfer from \V. H. M'Neil ... - 50 £.. And credited the colony in the books of outfit 1854, and the balance, soy --.-.- Has been paid over to the fur trade on account of outfit, 1855. 200 - - 400 4 2 600 4 2 6,271 5 2 600 4 2 600 4 2 0.34— Sess. 2. 3M3 You P ' i:'. I 462 APPENDIX TO REPOIIT FROM THE Appendix, No. ig. You will observe by stateirent No. 2, an account of land sales effected and inouics received — for stamps at tiiis place since my last report oi' land sides, dated 6th October IU53, the amount being GOU /. 4 «. 2 i^ Ilcusc of Assembly, Vancouver's Island, 3 Decendier 1850. The Speaker begs to inform bis Excellency the Governor tluit the House of Assembly met this day adopted the following resolutions, and ordered the same to be presented to your Excellency. Isf. That the thanks of this House be jjrcsented to his Excellency the Crovernor for the communication of November 27th, l«.5fi, and that the subject "relating to a sup])ly of money for copying documents, &c." ^'lmll be taken into consideration at an early iieriod. 2d. It was resolved. That respectful ai)plicatic)n be made, on the part of the House of Assembly, to know "what funds are subject to its control (if any), the amount of tliu same, and from what source derived ; also, whnt fund is the royalty upon coal paid into?" 3d. That T. .1. Skinner, Esij. was elected Chairmnn ol Coniniittec and Deputy Speaker. The house stands adjourned until Saturday next, December (ith ; then to meet at 10 a. m. (signed) J. S, Helmchen, Speaker. ?«■ .■ ■: Pi' A-:w ■? '"*1 Government House, Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 6 December 1856. Mr. Speaker and Gentlemen of the House of Assembly, I HAVE further 10 transmit with this communicati"'" abstracts of the income and expen- diture of the colony for the two years ending respi 'timely with the 31st day of October 1853 and 1854. 1 have received your Speaker's address of the 3d day of December, and highly aj)preciate your complimentary message. In reply to the following questions of the House, " What funds are subject to its con- trol?" " the amount of such funds?" "from what source derived?" and " to what fund is the royalty upon coal i)aid into?'' I would observe that I am not at present jirepurtJ to give the House a reliable and decided answer. ]\ly own impression, however, is, tliat the House can exercise a direct control oidy over the revenue raised in the colony through the act of the general Legislature. The revenue derived from the tax on licensed houses is therefore, I conceive, the only fund absolutely at our disiwsal ; the proceeds arising from " land sales," " royalties," and " timber duties " being remitted and placed t.o account of the Keserve Fund in England, which is, however, also exclusively applicable for colonial purposes, with the exception of 10 per cent , allowed by virtue of the charter of grant to the Hudson's Bay Company. The amount of revenue dcriveil from the duty on licensed houses, lor the respective yeai's mentioned, is given in the annexed table : — £. s. d. Year 1853 - 220 - - „ 18,64 460 - - „ 1855 340 - - * Those sums are also embodied in the abstractji of the colonial accounts transmitted to the House. (signed) James Dauglas, Governor, Vancouver's Island. House of Assembly, Vancouver's Island, The Speaker, 6 December 1856. Has the honour to inform his Excellency the Governor, that the House of Assembly resolved this day : " That the ^peaker be requested to thank his Excellency the Governor, on behalf of this House, for the infonnation so courteously and promptly afforded ;" and further, " to apply to his Excellency for similar information for the vear ending November 1856 ;" as also to a<(k, " Whether there is any charge against the Licence Fund, to come under their control from that date." The House of Assembly will meet again on "Wednesday next, at 11 a. m., and resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. (signed) J. S. llelmcken, S])caker. lill SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAYT COMPANY. 4O3 Government House, Victoria, 10 December 1856. Mr. Spciiker and Gentlemen of the House of Assembly, I IIAVK received your luldrufs, tliroujrli Mr. S|)Crtkfr's communicatiou of the 6th Decem- ber, and I tliank you, jiintlenun, for your kind moBsa^e. I iu'rev\itli triinsmit, for your iulormation, un almtruct uf tiio expenditure and income of fhc colony, niudc up to tlie 31st day of Octulier last, oxccptinj;, however, the income derivable from the royalty on conU, and the duty on timber, of which a Btatement will be Hcnt to the House as soon as the returns are received. With respect to your in<|uiry totichin<:; the iip])licntion of the duty on licensed houses for tiie vciir IH.ie, I have to inform the House that the whole sum derived from that source of revenue was paid over to the Hudson's Hay Compatiy immediately after collection, and was carried, with the other proceeds of revenue, to the credit of the General Colony Account, as shown by the abstract of the year's income transmitted with this communication. (signed) James Dmiglas, Governor, Vancouver's Island. Appendix, No. 19. House of Assembly, Vaneoi , er's Island, The Speaker, 10 December 1856. On the jmrt of the House of Assembly, heps rcspcetfidly to acknowledge ihe receipt this day of a });raeiou8 conununication, and an abstract of the income and expenditure for the year !85() from his Excellency the Governor, and to inform his Excellency that the House of Assembly unanimously rc-olved: " That the thanks of this House be presented to his Excellency the Governo.'. " r the same." (signed) J. S. Helmcken, Speaks .-. nd highly aj)preciate House of Assembly, Victoria, The Speaker, 13 December 1856. Has the honour respectfully to inform his Excellency the Governor, that the House of Assembly resolved this day, " That a requisition be made to his Excellency the Governor, for a copy of the last ' Census' of the popidation of Vancouver's Island," and further, " that any other informa- tion connected therewith will be thankfully received.'' The House will meet on Thursday next, the 18tb instant, at 11 o'clock, a.m. (signed) J. S. Helmcken, Speaker. is transmitted to the Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 17 December 1856. Mr. Speaker and Gentlemen of the Hou.se of Assembly, I IIAVK received Mr. Speaker's communication of the 13th day of December, containing the Kecjuisition of the House " for a copy of the la.' -. (signed) J. S, Helmcken, Speaker. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3M4 464 APPENDIX TO REPOai FROM THE Apjeadix, Nil. ig. House of Assembly of Vancouver's Island, The Speaker, 18 December 1856. Beos to inform his Excellency the Governor ond Council, that the enclosed Approjiria- tion Bill was first voted in ('ommitt«'e of Supply, and has subseiiuently passed through the usual stages of first, secon'', and third reailings, and that it is now jirescnted by order of the House for the consideration and a'Mu'oval of his Excellency the Go\('rnor and Council. (signed) J. S. Helmchen, Speaker. A Bill for thp Appropriation of certain Monies for the use of the House of Assembly of Vancouver's Island. Whereas it is necessary that certain sums of money be voted for defraying the unavoid- able expenses attending the conduction of the bunincss of the House of Assembly of Vancouver's Island, be it enacted : Ist. That 50/. sterling be placed at the diejiosal of his Excellency the Governor, to defray the expenses of copying statistics and documents for the use of this House. 2d. That 10/. sterling be grunted to Mr. Robert Barr, for his jiast services sis clerk of this House. 3d. That 5/. sterling be granted to Mr. Andrew Muir, for his past service of sergeant- at-arms. 4th. That 25/. be allowed for the salary of the clerk of the House for the year 1857. 5th. That 15/. be allowed for the salary of the scrgeant-at-arms and messenger, for the year 1857. 6th That 20 /. sterling be granted for lighting, heating, and furnishing the House of Assembly, for the year 1857. 7th. That 5/. sterling be granted for stationery, for the use of the members of the House of Assembly. 8tli. That the above items be paid out of the revenue derived from the licences of Juh- 16th, 1856. Read the third time this 18th day of December 1856, a.d., and ordered to be forwarded to his Excellency the Governor and Council. (signed) J. S. Helmchen, Speaker. m The following resolution relating to the preceding Appropriation Bill was also agreei,' to, 13th December 1856. " That in the opinion of this House, the revenue received on the 16th day of tluly 1856, from the licences to sell spirituous liquors, &c , ought to be withdrawn from the credit of the " Trust Fund." (signed) J. S. Ilelmcken, Speaker. To his Excellency James Douglas, Esq., Governor, &c. &c. &c. Sir, House of Assembly, Victoria, 19 December 1856. I AM instructed by the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Assembly to acknowledge the receipt of your Kxcelleney's communication and documents of the 17th instant, and to thank your Excellency for the same; and also to inform your E.xcellency that the Huuse will again meet on Wednesday next, the 24th instant, at 1 1 o'clock, a.m. 1 have, &c. (signed) Robert Burr, (Merk pro tern. I'M No. 13. (iuvernur Douglas (o Uii'lit Hon. H. [.alioiichere, m, p. «+ I'eb. 1857. ^ Pajjc 4.'-,i. — No. 13. — (No. 5.) Copy of a DESPATCH from Governor Douglas to the Right Honourable //. Labouchere, M. i". Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 24 February 1857. Sir, (Keceived, 29 April 1867.) 1. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipl^ of your dcs]>atchcs, Nos. 18 and 10,* of the 21st of October and the 10th of November last. 2. It is very gratifying to learn that the speech with which I opened the Legislature on tiie 12th of August has received your approval. 3. The House of Assembly not having met for regular business since ray report of the 9th of January, there is nothing of importance to add to the information then communi- cated respecting its proceedings. 4. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 465 'mcken. Speaker. ise of Assembly of icrvice of sergeant- 4. The Council was convened on the 14th day of the present month, for the considers- Appendix, No. ig. tion of an Act passed by the House of Assembly on the 18th day of December, granting — — the sum of 130/. sterling, chargeable to the duties on licensed houses, to be applied, in the manner stated in the several clauses of the Act, as it appears in the minutes 01' Council forwarded herewith. This Act, with some few verbal alterations, passed the ^ Council on tliat day, and will be transmitted after receiving the final approval of the House of Assembly. 0. The consideration of the Rules and Regulations of the Supreme Court for the admi- nistratiun of Justice io civil cases, as submitted by Chief Justice Cameron, with a com- munication of which I herewith forward a copy, was taken up on the 14th, and finally passed the Council without alteration on the 17th of February. 0. A copy of tiiose rules will also be transmitted for Her Majesty's Anal approbation or disallowance, as soon as transcribed and carefully revised, and by that time the official seal of the court, for which I took the liberty of sendina; a requisition with my despatch. No. 18, oftlie 14th of August last, will probably have arrived in this country, and wdl be attached to the document as directed by Her Majesty's Order in Council. 7. A copy of the proclamation of the Rules and Ref;ulationa of the Supreme Court, published on the 18th of this month of Februaiy, is also forwarded with this despatch . 8. Hoping that those proceedings may meet your approval, I have, &c. (signed) James Douglas, Governor. Enclosure I, in No. 13. End. I, in No. 13. Copy of Minutes uf a Council held at Victoria, Vancouver's Island, on the 14th, and following days of February 1867. Saturday, 14 February 1857. The Council having met this morning pursuant to a summons issued on the 13th of this present month ; the Governor being present, and the following members, viz. : John Tod, senior member, Koderick Finlayson, John \Vork. The Governor then proceeded to lay before the Council, an Act granting the sum of 130 /. for defraying the unavoidable expenses of the House of Assembly, which was read for the third time, and passed the House on the IStli day of December last. The Council having read the .several clauses of the said Act, it was proposed as an amend- ment that the following words should be omitted in the preamble, that is to say, "attending the conduction of the business," and the following words iu the 8tli clause, viz. : " Licences of 10th July 1850," and that tiie Act be us follows : A Bill granting certain Sums of Money for the use of the House of Assembly of Vancouver's Island. T, ("Icrk pro tern. I the Legislature 011 Whereas it is necessary that certain sums of money be voted for defraying the unavoid- able expenses of the House of Assembly of Vancouver's Island, be it therefore enacted : 1st. Tnat 50 /. sterling be placed at the disposal of his Excellency the Governor to defray the expenses of copying statistics and documents for the use of this House. 2d. That 10/. sterling be granted to Mr. Hubert Barr for his past services as clerk of this House. 3d. That 5/. sterling be granted to ISIr. Andrew Miiir for his past services as serjeant- at-arms, 4th. That 25 /. sterling be allowed for the salary of the clerk of the House for the year 1857. 5th. That 15 /. sterling be allowed for the salary of the serjeant-at-arms and messenger, for the year 1857. 8th. That 20 /. sterling be granted for lighting, heating, an.l furnishing the House of A3seml)ly for the year 1857. 7th. That 5 /. sterling be granted for stationery for the use of the Members of the House of Assembly. 8ti). That the above items be paid out of the revenue derived from tlie duty charged on licensed houses. The Act so amended was iipproved and passed. The Governor then proceeded to lay before the Council a letter from Chief Justice Cameron, traiismitiinsi a copy of the rules and manner of proceeding to be observed iu the Supreme Court of Civil Justice of Vancouver's Island, drawn up in virtue of the authority 0,24— Sess. 2. 3N vested ff .' i; 466 APPENDIX— HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. M ' lip, Appendix, No. ig. vested in the Court by Her Majesty's Order in Council, dated tiie 4th day of April 1860, ' which was submitted fur the approval of the Council. This document was before the Council until ovening, when an adjournment took place to Monday, the Otb instant. Monday, 16 February 1857. The Council met this mornin>r, pursuant to adjournment, the Governor nnd the same Members being present, as on Saturday the 14th instant. Proceeded with the reading and consideration of the rules and ma" ner of proceeding of the Supreme Conrt for the remainder of the day, and then adjourned to Tuesday the 17th instant. Tuesday, 17 February 1857. The Council met this morning according to adjournment, the Governor and the same Members being present, as on Monday the 10th instant. Completed the reading and con- sideration of the rules and manner of proceeding of the Supreme Court, which were unani- mously approved and passed in Council. The Council then adjourned. (signed) James Douglas, Oovernnr. Eocl. a,inNo.i3. ! n Enclosure 2, in No. 13. Copy of Letter from Chief Justice Cameron to Governor Douglas. Sir, Belmont, 12 February 1857. 1 HBRuwiTH transmit, for the approval of your Excellency and your Honourable Council, a copy of the rules and manner of proceeding to be observed, in the Supreme Court of Civil Justice of Vancouver's Island, drawn up in virtue of the authority vested in the Court by Her Majesty's Order in Council, dated the 14th day of April 1850. As no seal has yet bt'en received for the use of the Court, I have authenticated the copy by my signature, which I hope may sullice for its passing your Council. And as these rules cannot take effect until three months at least after publication, I hope your Excellency and Council will take action on them as speedily as possible. I am, &c. (sisned) David Cameron, c. j. ■I, i I ! I i' £ncl. 3, io No. 13. Kiiclosure 3, in No. 13. Pkoci.amation by his I'lxrellency James Dour/las, Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Colony oC Vnncourer's Island and Dependencies, and Vice-Admiral of the same, 8(.c. &c. &c. Whkkeas it hath pleased the Queen's Most Eixelleiit Majesty, by and with tlvo advice of Her Most Honourai'le Frivy Council, in an orilsr from ihe Conrt at Buckingham I'alace, bearing date the 4th day of April 185(5, to constitute a court for the aduiinistration of justice in civil cases in lier colony of Vancouver's Island, and to vest in the said court power and authority to fiiune, constitute, and establish such ruli's and regulations as shall seem meet, touching and concerning the forins«and niaiuiei- of proceeding to he observed in the said court, and tiie practice in pleadings and other matters, as si t forth and declared in lier Majesty's said Order in Council. Now, be it known nnio all Her .Majisty's subiects, that the rules and regulations of the said court, as submitted by Chief Justice Cameron, have been approved and passed the Council this 17lh day of February 1857, and will t.ike eli'ect three mouths from the date hereof. Given under my hand and seal, at Government House, Victoria, this 10th day of February, in the year of our Lord 1057, and m the 20th year of Her Majesty's reign. (signed) James Douglas, Governor, (seal.) By his Excellency's command, (signed) Richard Uolleilge, Secretary. l-i::!.: vll 101' nnd the same [ 467 ] ANALYSIS OF INDEX. lALPHABETICAL and CLASSIFIED LIST of the Principal Headinob in ilie following Index, witli the Pajiing at wiiicli they will he respectively I'ouiul. uglas, Governor. eid Cameron, c. j. governor, (seal.) PaOE lADMINrSTftJlION OF JUSTICE ■ - - 471 Foss V. Petly 498 Jurisdiction - - - - - - -510 Thorn, Adam ------- 541 Vancouver's Island, 3 . . - - - 542 I BOVXDARIKS : l\ More clear dejinitvtn recommended ; hovi fur iiiijwi taut ----- 4^^ •i. Line of Boundary proposed on the part of Canada ------ 475 Canada, 0. 7. y 478 Territorial Rights ....-- 5^0 I Caxaba : 1. Representation of the Government of Canada btforc the Committee - - 477 '2. General feeling in Canada relative to the Hudson's Hay Territ"ri/ • - - 477 3. Investigation hy a Select Committee of the "anaaian Legislature - - - - 477 t. Evidence in favour of the Anneialion of certain portions of the Hudson's Bay Territory to Cunada, and of their Settle- jnent and Administration by that Counlrii 477 r>. Krtcnt of Land in Canada available fur Settlement - - - - - -478 0. Territorial Claim of Canada in regard to the Hudson's Hay Territory - - - 478 7. Boundaries of Cauada as defined by the Ac. 14 Geo.'.'i, c. «3 - - -' - 478 H. Proposed le/irence of the question of Boundary to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council - .. - . 4-8 i). Objections to the proposed Administration by Canada of certain Portions of the Hudson's Bay Territory ... 4y(j 10. Views of the Committee in favour of Annexation, conditionally, to Canada - 479 Boundariti ....... 475 Colonisation and Settlement .... 482 Fur Trade, 12. 13 .1 Indians, (i. 8 - - 507 Legislalian - - - - - - -513 Red River Settlement, 3. U. 10 - - - - 524 Spirituous Liquors, 3 - . . . . ^gg Vancoughnct, Mr. ...... 54.J Y^pital -479 0.24— Sess. 2. g Chatter of Incorporation .... Church Missionary Society ... Missionaries and Missionary Settlementi Climate ----.-. Colonisation and Seltlemint, 1.2 Red River Settlement, 5 - - - Saskatchewan Kiver - - - • Summer Frosts .... Vancouver's Island, 13 - Coal ....... Vancouver's Island, 14 PAO> 480 480 5»7 481 483 536 53a 539 545 481 545 CoLOxisATioN AND Settlement: 1. Unfitness generally of the Territory for Settlement or Cultivation - . . 2. Evidence tu a contrary Purport 3. Incompatibility uf Colonisation vith Mono- poly in Trade - - - . . 4. Course recommended as regards the Land ft fur Settlement .... j. Eipcdiencij of Settlement North of the American Frontier .... 0. IVillingness efthe Company to give up anu Land required for Settlement 7. Conditions, as regards Colonisation, in the License (tf 1H3S 8. Recommendations (fthe Committee, viith a view to the Advancement of Colonisation Alexander Fori Athabaeca Lake -.-... Barley ........ Canada -----... Canadian Fionlier ...... Cattle Climate ...... .. Coal Conveyance of Land ---... Cumberland House •-•... Duties on Imports --.... Edmonton ---.... Emigration --..... Fhods Frater Rioer --..... free Grants of Land Fuel - - N 2 483 483 483 483 484 484 484 484 47> 473 473 476 479 480 481 481 485 489 492 49« 496 497 498 498 499 ■fr^ 468 ANALYSIS OF INDEX. CoLv.MSATWs A.\i) /S«Tr/-s.vi'iVr— contiiiucd. paok Fur Trade, 13. 14 .'>o« Govvrnmrnt by the Company, 2 - - - - ,003 Jmiians, 3 60*^ Liaid River 5«3 Maekenzie River • - - • • -5'4 Manitobah 5>C Military Force - - - • - - -516 Minnesota 817 Norway Huute ------- 5'9 Oregon - - - - - - - -6' 9 Otiauia Hirer 6>9 Peace River 5>9 Pembina 6«0 Portida Prairie 63" Price of Land 5"! Rainy Lake 5«3 Red River Settlement 524 Saguenay River ...... 531 Saskatchewan River 53» Simpson Fort .--••-- 537 Thompson's River 54° United States M" Vancouver's Island ...--- 549 tVestern Coast 54^ Wheat 547 Williams, Governor ------ 547 Conveyance of Land ...... 485 Compensation ...----- 485 Ditties on Imports .------ 4911 Education .--..... 4ya Religious Instruction ..... 597 Exports and Imports ....... 496 Duties on Imports .-.--• 491 Freights 498 Reciprocity Treaties - • - - - -5'" Tallow 540 Fisheries - - -496 Ungnva Bay ------- 541 Vancouver's Island ------ 54a Food 497 tiuffahes 47.5 I'uherics --- 496 Indians, 2 5ofi Pemmican ....... 590 Freights 498 Sinclair, James ...... 538 FuB Trade: 1 . Conduct of the Trade before the Union of the Canadian and Hudson's Bay Com- panies; Disoitrous Competition which prevailed • 499 2. Union of the Companies, and Benefits con- sequent thereon ... - - 499 3. Liernsc to Trade, as granted in 1838, and previously 499 4. Question as to the Legality of an Ex- clusive Licence ----- fjOo J. System of Traffie uiUh the Indians ; Prices given for Furs ----- 500 6. Council nf Factors - - - . 500 7. Trading Posts 500 Fvn T'flitnA— lontinued. p^qj 1 8. SlejM taken to prevent Competition or Pri- vate Trading 0. Extent of Private Trading carried on 1(1. More valuable and extensive Trade in the more remote Districts ... 11. Fur-hearing Animals ; v/iether un the de- crease or increase . . . . 12. United States 13. Evidence in favour of Competition in the Trade 14. Evidence in favour of the continuance of Monopoly . - - . . 15. Probable Monopoly even if the Trade be Ihrouiu open ..... 16. Vaticouver's Island .... American Fur Company - . . - . Ammunition ....... Canada, 2. 4- Colonisation and Settlement, 3 - - - . Compensation - Duties OH Imports ...... Indians, 7 ....... Licence to Trade ...... North-west Company Red River Settlement, 8 Ruttia ........ Spirituous Liquors -..--- Trading Supplies ...... GoyERNilBNT BY THE CoMPAKY : 1. Particulars as to the Local Administration 2. Remarks on approval or disapproval Administration of Justice . - - • - Canada -------- Red River Stttlement Vancouver's Island ------ 500 601 SOI 501 501 501 503 I 50J 50a 1 47' Half-breeds S Education - - - Red River Settlement, 8 - INDIANS ! 1 . Population ; vehtther increasing or deercasiug i 2. Physical condition ; instances of Destitution, Starvation, and Cannibalism 3. Effect of Colonisation and Civilisation - 4. Treatment iif the Indians by the Company and their Servants . - . - 6. Settlement of Indians; Practice of the Company hereon - - - - - 0. Question as to the preservation (f peace if the Trade be opened to Canada 7. Effect if Competition in Trade upon the Indians ..-.-- 8. Canada ------ Aborigines Protecti'jn Socitty Ammunition Basquia River - - - Blackfeet Indians Cherokee Indians Chipemyun Indians - Chippemis Jndiunx - Christianity - - . Compensation - - - Coppermine Indians - 4:1 4;| 4"! 471 48> 4* 48J 48) 48J till Pace nt Competition ur Pri- ■ • • • Ooo 1 'rading carried on - 501 extensive Trade in the ■ids - . . joi h I w/iether on the de- • 50« ■ 501 of Competition in the • 501 0/ the continuance of • 50a I exen if the Trade be • 50J I 3 ■ b Local Administration 5 i or disapproval increasing or deercasiug 5 instances of Destitution, 'annibalitm - - j m and Civilisation • $ \diuns by the Company - 5' ans s Practice of the preservation tif peace if td to Canada • - 0I m IM Trade upon the . 50 '-^. ^•JKI.KCT rOVMn >", ._or \w n'siiL'^' roy«WiiiY >> M A Nonli WVsi 1'. V CANADA. HIDSO.NS HAY .< INDIAN TKHKHOKII. Ih-ium tn till'' hiiiiu- , h lntu:< I'i'r 1'-. iilniuill^. ('i-isliiUiiK' Kuclui ^< **ji'-^;'. X!;.< ,«UJ" "" Ifui;"""* .¥"' 1 J / I »»^ iiiidittJ. FcHls tit \\\v liiiu* of liic ('ftiit|iH>si . Kittiti^h iicoiinif'liei' tniiiiit l'iii\jMi iii'hr tin- Uikuui • H'le tkf liUfii tviui»i-jft iwtt iY.wion <■(' r/ii l\'uttii-t •>/ .'..■.Wh'i5ft.iirtr. ,.( fAcJA/.vW.*,,.. ... (/>»/. /■■,7i,-(i .1/r.i.i.xtiii .nhi ?:> i-*)iii(--.< f.' '/<■■ ifi .vf ,./ ?^, ,,,„,( i;i/t./((> jiJi*/'.' 'iil.l ifir linn in . ri/i ( ml.' tlu hcW. •■•I ttnf ■•iTuteji hii-thl Ut\* thf .awiui isuihUfhnunt r( wtn •atleil t\'il >'/( I'htwt . fJmitfsi.flt* tfii^ufji I'uiihtr i-n thi Lake drg Hots ■ ^ft liirf/i.f <•« ihi lii.rr ,>i ihr .ii.i,nit'.<,i.'. . Int-th'T \itt on thr Kii't U.uf-' hut ».*,' iU'.riii t\Tr iUuti'tini . t.iihii I'tl 1,-u lii* Vrmnt-s IT .■/ tlu ^Umiows . -irui ihf . ,ull,il h'll Hoitil-fu. .-lihuis .-fi lit, sltoie ■>(' ttii' rbon . 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Mix-i-i rmii/i,i,if;i,i V \\nv..\v 'it' Ciiil'.IMniis.lo W' Wv'.X'^ • niy .X^.' \viv;>\^\ ii^^-'y. licniy luvi^^ard /Vi/Utv, ):•() .^N J :t} V.V. \ \ (..»!< Jl' -^v/ p. I 1' • In*' ./'. <:-i A^\. „,!. I' ^■1»^^^v >^ ^'^ \> ^ A«-* t; i»*'- H«rr«* *"• V " V s (I !• n II ^ ■'"V W ^• IdlArn , !!■':•' I ■■'■V. \ F K L '" 1. » \ *' \> \n it' < 'I- , i'.(i..'r""" \'. J ; M A 1' I '(/Ac NlHlll WCSI I'll! 1)1" CANADA, inhsoNs u.w ,i INDIAN Ti;i{Hrioi{ii:s h I'lthot' TllC llolM' .ll)S('|)ll ( lUU'llDII tli/;i)ii'i'r(h'ii(i /,.i/1i/h. Toroiilu. Si'iili' .il' KlijtIiKli Sbli'H ;,!,> ;.»i .■I'll !M' .Wi' J.'i' KiqilHiuitioii <■(' Ciiloiihii^' Julhf'niir.i I'l'i- Cnrl,\'u\it /'iii>ii'(i.*. ('nslalliiir KorltH Siliiriiui Kiinimliou of Ihiilsonx U.X- I.Wiiiiiijirjf .VI /i.p./..i/ii/./iiji"i y)rri>nrA.|i/<'JVi'r'"'ii/iii'.>i"i./)r/'u/. cui-n /i: SiilA.Ti'.im/ /)'7)i;;j/.V'*'V.W.li.(,7-.AI'.7l.Ml.i..W'.^'.'i,vW;f. .i;: Altar //■ ?iHim . ■.V'Witnwfc'u . .i- iWrM.rAv.j Drvoiiuui I'oniirtliiiii. .•1/ ./ l':,h,ml.ii'lli.>.'/m;'h,. 4')' ('illl,li/.l f.'iL-V I'l' /. Iltiivn . Kr '''•■ht,;,l„nii l«m I i-) Sn.i ^ri^ll' jm u I'.K'itir On iiii \" III I'nirn \V'fM|t»n1 In lilt' lii\rrSimn- I !hIi \','|V Indian 1 Tin- r.'/(i'*i/ui %t,itt . ( r/.i luiihf l„.h. i:.,^l ,'t ill, IU;hv l(i/'n>H» l'nhi\< o lfln.ir..t i> ,i.. H-,;.>- .V, Al.^( . '1/1.1. j/ . Hiii--n IhJiiIii. /•;■, i-i;.. I, ■till II, . /".•, /,..„, II, >(,.,(/„ I'l-iiiU'iy iti.tt lit>- ,-ii r ■] ■ • •n''.-,.::r.iill :,ii,i,i }^':' Z'A. Z60. ( S,^s;=.Z.) ,,..""■•■'• "■4., ' « \-.-, *-^*-\'S c;;-,b, ♦-• ,,,„., ^ 'y^'S^' ^f^.., -'i^^ /sM **^ f S J .uVll'l'' ./ ^j^'^S .>■• V <^' /> illdiall IVl|ltlljllHVtl ()l Hllll>ili Noi'ltl Aliil'l KM . Tl\f h'ttt-niim ^t. iti limit •.JiH-ll* On i/.m, '...J/i. '/(.!■ ./,•/'(■'■ NiKirc Hhiiil'il.\- , I lit luiIKi- l„ Tnh>.- .,s.u'u,.if,')/„ vrnr.,/ fi.hi.ai /'ovf.. ..(/J/w/,- y..i.W I'f //(< A'.'. /a .l/.'/j/i/. ';/(.* , // fi ,,> Cii.lit\ ,.„ f'thU /." SOV.I ■tll'i .C.v. I'fl insi lilt r ill, Uikuut i'.-iiiit.-- ill l'iin"H- inhcs of >;uiiiiii'ii ('ii.iio l.n i niuht tlw >t'Ut.> ,;.»i.;i(' y.ii'i' Tliitti- 7 '•«:> ^^(,^.■^cl',,^ liiili,ui.s 1. !.'('.' ,U-iiiitl*i'nu\-i ;.■(•<>(► I'nr.i i'l'ltu- iKV.U I't.iins .; ,'.('(• Ophbn,t/.-i ■,'(•(» hiliuitv III ntik ,'r ih'.'s . Si.v. ttu- I.L-^t .'iihiiil ,slii:iiifi- I'l' ili< i-'hr ."■-.^•.(/.T iiii.t i ikf Hiu<'n iii'ii.in.f •2 ,-•-,' ) t'-i T/'/'iv liiitiuiii lih' itHii res iisfiif U-nsuA miiin, ,ir.'/ uuuuin ; n.'-.f \\\\■"<' I'iTt //m' l.itiii I; i..>- U' */.'/■<■ ■i/i-i ihf hiur It' ; I'l \.xMii .U-lt /.., I yLllll.'ntlltllt .'r'llul'irfi.l rh.,i »u\ -.iiliJ i-'i: .•' Ih.ir . in > i ■ ■.../., .1..- i'luiff . Vn- rhiH I.' t ' ti-i'i.s ,-"■ l..,.-ios /,>,'/..'»..„ ,/;, ;..,;,.-,/.■> lii'i.-. t'lh- h'li.th t.< I' 1 !'>' ,'■!.- ii-'l, i.!i.< I .hyhui in >■■ III, if.1t nrnr if. I.i.ht .yftlli- ..I- rf (.'!((/.,/ I. ^" (I i'' I., .'\,.V I '<.h i> Ihr filth. Ii- ■ liw Itiuui. iia'h'i ■■II th -/ itit ,i-..*j.".- (■. .tih^thtr i,:l tiiiil I'Kii t ,- II i;i lilt hill- !\- !.•■■■ ril-i.i .ii-~rn,.l ori luvount of' Its Hutu I.- I. lilt liH' hiSl ll-i ■>. ill t'^'ll i'lUif'iiiil l.uhh |V( the t\',:l-' .n '.(. >(r.'/ r m !/(<■ (iinu Uii,v iii'i 'i-t-n I'h, th.ii.i :...h ."U . '(.•../...-,/. .it il,, h.-iwir, ft ,1 lUvfr of thill 'Uiiiif Hf'i'i t.iil.s iiilf Lilt,- '■.'., r/'i'/i '/"«■ ..'(ii'c t\\sh. . u t.< nuhli I'v l^lli.^^l• S li.i.uii. (.< ,j>^ 'I'lun '.' iiMijiitS of thai I1-, f .Ml n t!i1l llity ,»<(i' n'liiHiii/liiUI-v airh ll„ I'ltiili /'.i'.i« . ,llt fhi-M- foitf .III- i.mifi thi i„- '■■III'- i-i liiiiihiii It h'li-itih /vit.-i ; ■(.■! Ir I'u ...',••! .■ ihiiL -If U«\ ',• i'lii-t.t I'nhiri h> tU, T/Ol/l .*- /■" '^'f .!! I'U IKiliit (II Kiiiii Taltlc . i'l Hi.- .M'litiuih I'.irl ,>f l'rii.,/. I Mr.irf' i-ti.itt'ni .--ii'i;- of Xtshitih.inuii Viiit.T lit-nufn U,.i Uo-.i .{■ rhf iUrui" ,u /«•("■ i'' ^^«■.^r Li'n.t Oi, t:,ist ofli,\iJii.ir iH.ln.liii.i Itihs .■iuf'Tioi Union. ihihi.fun. tin' .rttvttr i'liii ,f. l.t!ni-.( Or.ii.thiii ti. In t'i^f',r i.iintihi Li.'f .-f li.uniroit ..■m-i'/m/ LiL I'hW'iO L'.v' luii.uLi . .v.T.: V, „.i .V,.. :(-.,u..M.i. u .1 r.uu. i.lti.u;! /. :*(! OjM.'ivu hv 1 lir M •f. lii'Hi'-tiy.lo In- I'm:!'- i .,1 .'. 1,1 ; A* . . ' : U-l \\ .-/ . \ic<\r\ ':ixv\.-^Cird ■ Waaler. . ■« 'lJI...,i»'ia. I J >1 -^y ^ UU kM«.M« 5;ilSSi?-fflBtr*;»>»S#-": 534 0.24— Ses 3 N 3 n ■■'■ '-.. ■ . ^- Hf/*. / / ^: f- ^Is, ^ / / / i ■virfp'"*" jV'f'i'Tn""'" 1 jv-.i.^rii""" 1 ,11 / \l'll /■ .ii"'V u' <^- .w! V. ;<"•/•<.,,'."" /'t % i Stsrt //'iw^^ as ':e/ mf. °^. toiix* P*My( Z^,: -■•». ■XT' ^ I JT.^reuYi ii Victoria land i V;."' \ "•'^.. ^"^- 4>^ ''"<)(• ft: f*/' ^'^n^. ""/fx '"^ 'ivi. 'Ji. f;r!-, '^•^^/^ .<^^. v5'^^:» Jit "^"i£. ■?. ... / Ci^ ''-w, '/'*"« K, 't<^, -'/z<;> J5io Prilfeinuv ifjWlLltll. tttl/ftUt \ilf)} Bofi . ,i CGT^ V tinn ^ >. 4;) ''''/•rf 'Uei^Zl Doobaunt •^Reliance, (S L v: *^'»"//^ .'::v > 95:"''''k tNv-^* ,p/V «'?>//, rnr, ,>f, i.t-lV ly \\\r\\\\ \\\t",\\\\\\:x\r-^Ai.xx\\\^?' 60 ViiH'"'''' 11'!' ^ ' V Caaxiao" Xnl cr^J .CTJy i V*' \ H« ^"^ V» ^"•^ >A^ ''^^■^ *■ .\\>v5 i ■^ (i'oitBo '-4;. fo"' „tBaw'" , V. "% ttt V.-^* / V .V Iter \ i \ I \ do "^^\U^o'f{ \ ^ ^ » WfFrfdenck<'^\ \ \ SvTvnt'^^-^ \ ^^^^ ,c^^^" \^ \ \ : "■•-•..-, \ ^--^ H tr D s OS's lu.l'jjud'A' Ji' ^l 'iix..jj^ij. .. -.. ii" \\x:;.^ \ \ \. o .ij... 'J :Ui iiii'J ii''ii):^:!i}^'unif. \ 30 .f? -r^rtzz.- 1 fe- ^>C \ \ 4^ V i? \y^ :5*-" #^' v--^- "N \ ^ ^ ..^ ^■" -AT 'v/ 4c. \* ^ / C'u/ciherl'i'"* Ii-.L-t iiii?r?\ v lJ^ .,. rrobiskei Str. ,\>' .^''' y ^^-^■^^' U D S O N S f^tenhobne Sd" i^,^ STR A I rj. iV t N(OH 7.^' i"' v-;^ IVJ^ .^' .♦^'■• .^^^ .$^ \ \ ^■ i^^- ,v .^^^ Jf' (^ t,*3 ^N ;^^o. 0^ 1 ' , 1 \ > i X / \ / \ \ ^. > % V I Mii^ or tli'.twil \W . Alrovr-utilii . I On this -IfiJ/' f/«' L'crrit'Wi d■ f 's' '■f ra ] . W I HHHI ' ' u. . ii pn *^i1W«*llll •i i / I I .lli<)Ul(it.\AL M.il' or NORTH A\IFT1 SH o.a^— Sess. 3 N ;i m«t hi4'; i'^o,; "0 ' ^ijltf^ . * ■■'■ •'" 'iv Jit- '■% f4r^ . \P ^, V, '^v,. S '■■'>'^*, M^^ qi«/1'.r;-i;. ■'•'.. b-^l /i o^ . ^['W. . ^ 1 1 ''""hi \ ^•"^- -4>2^^/J uo loo 00 80 :o yii-t.iriti La Hit 'S, V ^!>'iiotsn \N />' <> « t li '• d X Laud '"ri^ "■■''> ... f'^t?.,-,. ^/\/ / * . — -li IW frit, -i • _^ ^J^-f^'mt wit.. y W ^^:- u. ^7^ ., «"'\., I) -^ o >^ „...llU'' B .1-1 Y ,0 uuhuv •jI«.r.o««"""'^ ^'f^ ^^ '^'''-i. liiinti ]) '^ E (i.cniil'W''.'' Vloosev VrantUmllo. ^, "~^ V „ ^ S '; V *''"«"'taic or Gpos , T- Ventre 1. , ' HUlMinl X -^ ?i u ^■>. V>ll"%^ Sl''!i^ -~-v" !4t».. \ si *"'"'.'«/,;,/f 1/ C^U'>*''" '■. - ,•„■.•""■'" /■ ^K^^fy ,r ..v^^ A^^ ■,\\ &' AliOlilOlNAL 1*UP ov [''•' NORTH AMERICA. ilriiotiihi till' /»":*. I. I'li. ■■( aiuL tlie Locations of various INDI/VN TRIBES . •( v^- \» ^ i\}jn-^ 'i.j^ / K m I'll,! •Iniliitlil AUtciiijii'm IBB-ih* lUiliivtii or S'loiLV :.m!&^ llufOH Inufiiois mm>- (iitiwha CTfiml Oierokfe Mi--- Estftiiwitu.r :mim JCilootli ^mm Miabasciii «■» Su'u. ';jiSe» Alfi- ..-/I S- Ii-oijuois "^--rv l.i .InvK.iiiiilhi .LillhK 'Of lll'.lllll,, ■'«. ) V^ X'unetaie or Gros T Algoutjuiu 1 . . Uamy I. wai -f Rcdl. I'l.Kiini' ,,, S I' «• F; It I „ „ *S ■ - -<\''''''''""^'"~*'f'S*^v-'-1' 'J Menomonie I'd'' """.'**T\„..i-'^ fri" r iiii' iiiiiiiiii 'iViix !' i>r iiir liiiii.'iiiis it.iv TcrnlniHS U'c I «>l' llii- Itixliv ^Iniiiitiiiiis . /'.ri/i.'.'r.Ni 'iiii'.' Jl'oi'lilill-ll (iiiUII< i-Klnl'll.tlli I I:! 7.'.7r<.< Jllhll"l.iillll i:, ,•!, Ii,li>iiiiiiiiir< BliitKi't'i'l C *^i<*iii ti'ttiji tiuiif, tMiiif . V'v/n's ^lliliiiiijitiit /■.' (' .s(|ii«iii;ti( .< ,\'.> lillllll i'».Vi,,|. /..•(,, . I'^lii iiltril tit I'sIIiiiiiIimI l\>^)iiliiliiiii ril' li'inloi-v t'li.Vf .'I (/■< .Mi'lllihllH.i n'r.,t J7 .■:o H.iii'i r,r liif NiM'ilx'i- 111 litduiiis (/.(/'(■.■n.ij ('rtim'il." .1^ /'.pf/iir.lfiiMi. f Aj/>/>f')i'(i.< iniiiim.l ill Snv )'"rL lluliillii I'lWi, II" :ir liirni (l.n- thlnnim .f t'liij'ivifils .'l' /. (/•. /..,,'ij/i VtK^iniitiifiituliiit .t ' iji f/..- .V/,(f.' 'I .W • (.' lit'O f .'ii»i ;;; Siitlciiii'iil lit tl!f N i.iiiiii'ol' Iijfiiuis illUi^'t-S III' UlO riltllil: 7 West <>l' Uu Mis!-issij |>i Hint l'.asl 111' liif' lUxJ'V Miiiiulitii lit'^i-,* lll.ui.l,:-t .S'i.lli^ . (' Mmiiiou.^ ,1';. .,/„.,■.■, I (MlM. I .s .'•■ ;.•.'(■■ St/tlriitfikt 'tl •])(■ Siii^iM'L tit Imiiaus wKn lu v»- Imvii i*'4i*iivTtl tvttu. iiiP l:.ist to the West (iftlir >ll>^'l^slIl(;l ^/•viitoiiiie/i .y/i/iKVicjv liy.)rl(> 27/ 77. ni .'..., iiiihium I tiin.':t,it',-i ■*li <'ri-. .< fir.-'-- r#-,-ir(V'.v j' •(• 'j- ■■'mi<'.v y(/i(i.'>i.v i*;ini'iii.v A.«-,, li- ft). (./,■.. V I'liiiiti.i A" ni' till M,,\\riiit l^'iiiipi).' jIitiiiuiIi.iWi . A'kikvi.?, AtiltOIIH lui I. )■(.(/( .7irl.v/.-nl'(M .'<;•'<> /,»■:■■.'■ ;'..:>i ;..'(.<> *> "'■ 77ii' .Vi . • . .'I i.iiUiiiiit ri.ii(liiiii ll(V/ (W i/ir Moi'.v Mm iiiiii. I la .'II iimii^iiiiii ti' tin- fv/*>ft of a foinmi.s: inner of the l^iiili'il »>r" AdminislKtliun €)/ Juilict ..... 471 /,^gn/ Opinion • • • • - • -6'3 Canada, 8 ....... ^y8 /Mr Tradf, 4------- .500 Territorial Righti 540 Licence to Trade jlj Colonization and Setttemtnt, 8. 7 - • - 483 Eatt India Compuny v. Sand$ .... 493 Furl'rade 499 MineraU - 517 Coo/ 481 Copper ........ 487 (■^oW 503 Iron ........ 508 Malachite - . . • - . • aid Plumbago ....... ^^o Tar 540 Missionariet and Missionarif Settlemenit - • - 517 Church Mutionary Society .... 480 navigation of the Lakes and Riven - - - -.018 Red River Settlement, 3 5''4 Superior Lake ....--- 639 North-tvest Compang - • - - - -5'8 Fur Trade, 1. 2 499 Peguis ....-..-- 519 Price of Land • • - - - - -52' llcndm^lcy • - - - - - 505 Vancouxer't Inland, - - - - 543 Proprietary Rights A*' Territorial Rights 54" Pugel Souiid Agricultural Compuny • - • - j'i 1 Langford, Captain • • - - - - 511 Railway Communication - • • - • -5^3 a rand Trunk Railviay of Canada ... 504 Rainy Lake -- 5'^3 RCD Rll'EH SFTTLEilEyr : 1. Orinin of the Settlement; its Expense to the Company - - - - - 5 24 2. 1'rngrr.ix of the Settlement; Statistics on the sutijtct .-.--- .024 3. Means ij' Communication considered ; l^iffi- culti's hereon • - - • - 524 4. Character of the Soil, and Cultivation - 525 0. Climate 5'^*> 6. Population ; hoxv composed ... 526 7. Trade ivith the United States - . . ^jC 8. Discontent among the Settlers : Petitions by them .... - 536 RmD RirMM SKTTr.MMK,\T -coiitiiiucJ. rAoi II. Anneintion to Canada, or furmalinn intit an indrptnderil Colony, ronsulered • • '.ijl^ 10. Supgettitms by the Committee • - • 4117 Administratiim of Justice - • . . . ^f Competition in Trade upon the u*e •ij Spirits 539 Sitka 538 Superior Lake ....... 539 ColonisnIioH ami Settlement, I, Q ... 48a Mineral - 517 i\'avi^atiun of the Lakes and Rivers . - • 518 Red River Settlement, 3 534 !• :;!i \\\ !|:| it! 1 ,1:' 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 N 3 llt^ (:l m 470 ANALYSIS OF INDKX. Ttrriloriiil RighU • liounilinit Ciinadu, U. 7 ■ Legal Opinion - I'l ..prittary Kigkli • ."•nlkirk, Lurd • Timber .... Unitid Slalet . Coloniinlion anil StttlemenI Fur Trade, IJ . Miniietota Red HiTci Seltlemcitt, 7 Spirituous Lii/uon, 'i. 4 S<]ualliii:; Vamvuikh's Islaud : I. Grnnl uf the Island to the Uudum Cunijmnif in 1H4M •J. Ooxernorship of Mi, Blanthard, tk (Jovernot - ■1. Adminislratiim of Justice I. Liniiltd extent of Heltlemtnt and CuUiva- lion - "). Causes tif S'tin-Setllement ; how far the Company may be responsible 'I. Pricv of Land ... 7. I^'ant of a Survey of the Island S. S/iiril l.irencen ... :i. J'.xpeniiitute o« Public Works In. lieligious Imtruction PAUH 473 47» 513 54 > 5 V* 484 501 517 SSii 53U s Day e first 54« .14a 54'^ - 543 543 I 543 544 544 544 544 VAyCUVftHS /.V/..4.V/>— OOllliluiUll. I I. I'a'liculiirs rtliuiie to the Native PopuU' tion ; their Treatment by the ComiMiny, ^c, III. Suitnlilrntts f^^eneratty if the IitanU for C 'otonisiilion and Settlement ... 1:1. (limali- ...... U. Coal Mints la. Fisheries ...... J 6. Unpro/itahle Outlait hv the Company 17. RirinHmi nded re-pi)!iie. ... Western Coast Climate ...... Rorltif Mountains .... Thumpnon's River .... Vancouver's Island, 18 PiCll 544 544 546 S4j 545 54.'> 54i m:> 54'' 546 47(i 4)10 485 4U0 50» SM 6i(i 5^1 539 54'> 481 530 540 54C :m :i i Ij r 47« 1 PIOI liilitt PopiiU r»m/Mini/, Ji't • 344 hr titaiul for ■ J44 • • 446 • • Mi ■ • 543 Company ■ S4.'. 1)1 the Crown ■ 543 hr ( vlony m ai t ofthi- Unci,/ - • /j.l;-) (Inrrrnmrnt ■ 34ti mnl Secretary ami rrlativr t • • ,546 • 47»i • ■ 4H0 • ■ 483 • ■ 4U0 - ■ 30a - • 511 - • 6l<> • ■ .'.ai ■ S3i) 34(i - ■ 4S1 - 5V - 540 • ■ 64C I N D li: \. [N.B. — Tn thli Index the FiKurex rollowini; thn NAtncii nf the Witncuei refer to the (jiieationn iif th» Kviilciict' ; (lionu fiillnwinK Afijt. p. to tli« paging of thu A|i|>eiidix } ■nd the Numfralt following Rtjt. /I. (11 the paging of the Itcport] AliOliiaiXF.S nnOTECTlOS society. Letter from the Comniitttf ..f iht- Abiirigiiifs I'rDtL'oiuin Sin lety in Mr. Lubouclittre, iliiied i8iii May il^SJ. reUtive tn till' coiitiiticiii, circuinxtuuct"-, ;inii treiitniciit uf tli .' Iiuliaii tribes within the tvrriturien of thu lludi'oii's Uuy Conipuny, A pp. p. 441-444. Administrnlion nf Justice. PiirticulnrH uh tn, and apiiroved of, the syHiein <.'f ndmiiiiiitrutioii of jiisticr throiit'lioiit the IiiHiiiii territory and l{ii|i('rl'« I,imd, Sir G. Simpmm 1018- lO'i;). U)3()-in4;{. intio, lotii. iifjO-iig^. 1387-140.', All criniiiml lascM uru tiicd .it Red liivpr, nnd iiri! o|icn to the piibhi:, ib. 1145 The Uecorder of Ucd Ivivtr in'l» .il^o at Norwav House, ib. iiS;), iiyu 'I'hc (actors act a* niaijistnitfs, lA. 1191-1193. JiiHtice WHS well adniiniHtert'd at, lied Uivor when uitncH was thcio in 1M47. Ciuftou 3212. 33^8-3333 Particuhirs as to the nio(h' of udiinnistratioii of justice, ib. ■^■H'l- 3231 Trials l)y iiiat;istriUes take place wiihoiit iijmy, lA. 32'io-;',2'22 (Jopyofn law passed by the Ked Hiver Council on the ijjtli July 1845, relaiive to accused |)ersoiis tainperin.; with the evideiire of tlieir relatives, &c. : belief that the law hvm never heeii acted upon, il/'Zaui/A/iH 4899-4901 . The fimctionH of witness, as Governor of Assinihoia, were judicial and iegislntive, ('a/(/t/'e// 53*ii. ",4io-,'54i4 As head of the hgislative and judicial liodie.-, '.vitness was aNi>ist(!d by a council mid recorder, ib. ;-,4io-54\4 During Mr. Thorn's uhseiiee, sub- se(piently to 1849, witness was sole adminlKtrutor of justice (save that there wa» 11 jury), and achipted very much the plan used in military courts, ib. ,f;437-o4'39- 5;303. o3"-i- .■^ ii-rn"tory liioui:h rude way in which jusiici^ 1^ udministered ; no act of ui'oss i - JUaiu Ill %B»I 1.;'' uiiiir.' M ioi\ p UVi •ccptional administiiitinn ha> taken yincv, Jiit/ht Hon. E. Ellice :fio',. o8a8, Satisfaction lo the Ilonu Government, as well as to the inliabiiants, by . tion of justice by the Company, it). ,j8o,j Further st-itenieiit ns to the '•'linistriitioii by the Company, notwitli'tanding that there have been c.iin- ■ '■ I River colonists, il>. ,0929, ,19;}'"' The Crown has at pri-seni siitlicient lil.s nianistrates wheiever it pleases, ih. ()070, 6071. ■>'r. iiIm ' i.id ..Pelly, JiirisdiclioH. Aa.t ■ 'iidsnn's liny Comymiii^). List App. p. ,^()-4H«- Anitutiun and Discontent. See Canada, 2. Agriculture House, Rioer. See Hurley. Intliari Corn. Climate. Indians, d. Wlieat. Thorn, Adam. Vancouver's Jsland, ;l. if the adventurers, dated November l8,')'i, Half-breeds. Red River Settlement, 0. Colonisation and Settlement, lied Jiiver Settlement, 2. 4. ('umbel-land Saskatchewan Vancouver's Island, 12. Alexander Fort. Snanipy country in the neighbourhood of Fori Alexander, Sir Ci. Simpson g'jH, 959 A settlement might be formed near Fort Alexander, at the souihirn extremity of Lake Winnipeg.', Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 430^, 430(3. Amelioration of Climate, See Climate. American Frontier. See Colonisation and Settlement, 5. Sqiiattirig. United States. Anteiicun F'ur Company. Large trade of the A.mt rican Par Coiiip.iny in furs, procured in the Western States where the trade is o\>en, Isbister 2J ■ -2\\'j The American Fur Conijiany has no exclusive privileges, M' Laughlin J072. .SVe also Fur Trade, 12. Ammunition. 0.24 — Sess. 2. \^b ,1 i; 472 AM M AND !;> I H'l Report, 1857 — continued. W \- A Ammunition. Practice in ri'ijiird to the supply of amtnuiution to the Indians ; the Comp.iny do mit barter it, and, if possible, always supply it when wanted, Sir J. Richardson 2992- 3001 Deper.dent slate of the Indians on the score oi" ammunition supplies, Kiw) 5685-5689 More dependent chanicter nf the Indians since the substitution of the gun for the bow and arrow, ib. 5685-5687. Anderson, Right Rev. David, D.D. (Analysis of his Evidence.) Has been Bishop of Rupert's Land for seven or eight years, 4231 liesidud at the Red River Settloment, 4232,4233 Has travelled to considerable dis'tanci's from lied River; has twice visited every mission station, 4234. 4250 There arc nineteen clergymen of the Church of Kngland besides witness located in Iiuperi's Lixiid, all furnished bv different societies. except the one who is chaplain to the Company, 4235-4237 The total income of witness is about 680 Z. a year, ardiiig the settlement of the territory and the advancement of education and civilisation, 4274-4279 The Company have done much for the pioiec- tion of the Imlians, 4275 Importance of a grant bv the Coni|iany in aid of education, 4278,4279. There is a Presbyterian church at Red River, 4280 There are Roman-Cat iiolio clergyiiien with a bishop at their head, 4281 Exclusive of pure Euro])eans, there are not more than 14,000 or 16,000 Christians, of all sects, of Indian ..ligni in Uupert'^ Land. 428c-42()o Impression that Sir O. Simpson's estimate of the number of tlie Iniiian popiiluticii is too low, 4291, 4292 Witness does not consiil'-r the j^overninent of the Cnmpaiiy favourable to settlement, 4293-4295. 4349-4355 Possibility of agri- culture and settlenie ii along the more southern parallels of the territory ; psirticular points adieited to hereon, 4204. 4305 et seq- 4356 ct t,eq. F.iicouragemL'iu by the Company to agriculture by the Indians at Red River, Scc, 4300-4303- 4345. 43 l6 Route from Lake Winnipeg to Moose: iheie is not much tii-.iber by the way, 4307-4320 The country has not been sutficiently cleared to pro- «lute any amelioration of climate, 4321-4325 At James's Bay and other places animals iire nuno scarce than formerly, and living is sometimes very precarious, 4326-4334 The Company have not specially tried ti collect the Indians into vi'i \ges, 4335 ^Arrangements as regards medical men, and the supply of medicines, 4336-4339. The Company grant 100/. a year towards the schools at Red River, 4342 Tliey are building a Church at iMoose, and another at Ymk, 4343, 4344 The Indians are increasing where settled, and decreasiuir up the country, but are on the wiiole decre ising, 4347. 434S Explanation as to the Companv having opposed the settlement of Portage la Prairie, on the Assiniboine River, 4349-4355. 4430 The Company oppose settle- ment, as incieasini: the local expenses of Red River colonv, 4350-4353- 4W2-4440 Expediency of opening up the communication between Canada and Red River, and settling the frontier country from Lake Superior to the Rocky Mountain, 4356, 4357- 4370-43^0- 4414 Want of artisans at Red River, 4369. Progressive social and intellectual develo|)ment of the half-castes at Red Kiver, 4383. 4421-4409 Deiiendence to be placed on the half-castes as Bettlers, 4384, 4416. 4^25 Although in the Unit d Stiles and Canada the red man has disappeared before the inarch of colonisation, witness believes that if proper measures be taken in regard to the settlement of the Iliuison's Bay Terntnry, tiie Indians may liecorae tillers of the soil, and preserved as a distinct people, 4385-4420 Destruction of the Indian if the <-oiiniry lie tlirown o|)(Mi, and spirits introduced, 4403-4408. 4419, 4420. I'^xplaiiation as to tlie opposition of the Company to the formation cif a missionary bettlement at lleadingley, 4431-4433 Though an increase of population would cause increased AND BIL 473 Report, 1857 — continued. Andeisoii, Right Rev. David, D.D. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. incrcTs^ed expense of government, it would also increase the means of Efovernment, 4434— 4440 Witness has not heard of any attempt by the Company to establisli a settitinent near ihe Rapids, 4441. Annexation to Canada. See Ciiniida, 2. 4. 0. 10. Colonimtion and Settlement, 0. Legislation. Red River Seltlement, 9. 1 0. Artisans. VVunt of artisans at Red River, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4369. Assmiboia. See Red River Settlement. Atsinihoiiie River. Good land along the banks of the Assiniboine River, Sir G. Simpson 888-890. Athabasca Lake. Cultivation -3443 Description tjeneruUy of the routes taken by witness on each ot these expeditions, 3444-34')6 Miinner in wliicli the exic'ditions were siipplieil wiih food; great assistance nfforded hereon by tlie Hudson's Bay Company, 3457. 3492, 3493. 3527-3529- Tlie travelling was all by water, in canoes or boats, 3458-3461 The winter months were spent in miiking scientific observations and procuring food, travelling being then iniprnciicfible, 34(12, 34G3. 3470. 3489-3492 Number and class of men composing the seveiiil expeditions, 3464-3466 No trouble was experienced Irom the Indians, 3467-3469 Exceeding coldness of the climate at Fort Ueliance ; the soil as well as ilie ehmate rendered cultivation impracticable, 3471-3477. 3499-3501 Slight extent of cultivation at Cumberland House in 1820; 3479. The route to Red River, &c. by Fort York u less difTicult than the Fort William or any other route, 3480-3486 Great kindness of the Company and their servants 10 the Indians when in di>lress ; instmices of tliis, 3487. 3496. 3513-3516. 3549-3556 Unfitness generally of the teniiory lor colonisation, 348S Instances of distress and niortaliiy of the Indians fnnii wiint of food, 3496-3498. 3508, 3509. 3524, 3525. 3536- .}o39 Unsuitable 1' ss of the .soil ;it Fort York for cultivation, 3502-3505 Few cusuiilties during the second and third expedition ; on the first expedition mure than half the men died Croin want of food and clothing, 3506-3508. Slifiht cfl'ect of civilisation upon the Indian^, 3510,351 1 Good feeling oltbe Indians towards the Coinpiiny, 3514 The servai.is of ilie Norih-wes>t Company ;icted very kiiidly towards the fiist expedition, 3515 Better position of the Indians under the Com- pany's rule, though less iiidt pendent since the use of fire-arms and ammuiiiiion, 3517- 3523 Further evidence as to the climate at Fort lieliance and other of the more north- ern points, 3531-3535.3540-3548 On all occasions the expeditions in which wiiness was engaged leceived evety kindness from the Hudson's Bay Company, 3557. Sack, Sir George. Belter opportunitieF of witness than of Sir George Back for observing the chaiaeicr of the country, King 5650-5652. Banking Accommodation. There is no bank at Red Kivcr, but the settlers have agents in England, Sir G. Simpson 1995, 1996. Baring hland, ^c. Character of the soil and climate of Banks or Baring Island, and of Woilaston and Victoria's lands, Roe ;)96-402. Barley. Cultivation of barley at Lake La Crosse, a little to the north of Cumberland House, Lefroy 246 Fort Simpson is the most northern point at which barley is grown, ib. 247 ^fention of several northerly points at which barley is grown, Rae 391. Barter. Sec Fur Trade, 5. Trading Supplies. Basfjuia River. Success comparatively, of the cultiva;ion, as carried on by civilised Indians, at a place called the Pas, or r.ither the Basqiiia River, Lefroy 171-180. 246. Beads. Beads arc not now traded with the Indians, but are given as gratuities. Sir G. Simpson 1 624- 1629. Bills of Exchange. Goods supplied by the Company are paid for half-yearly by bills of exchange; per-centage charged by the Company on these bills, Corbett 2784-2790. 0.24— Seas. 2. 3 O Bishop ii; iiiJ- 474 BIS BL A Report, 1 H57 — continued. .f-.: Bishop of Rupert's Land. Witness Ims been Bishiip of Rii|ieri's Land for ei<;l)t years, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson <)'23i Hiis travillt'd considerable distancrs from Red River; has twiie visiieil every mis-ion suitiun, ih, 4'234. 4250 Tlie total income of witness is al)i nt ('80/. year, deiiveil imrtly liom a becjnest of the lute jSIr. Leith and jjiirtly by a piiynieiil ()( 300/. a yciii- uiulertiiken by llie Coinpiiny, lor a chaplaincy ; the (alter sum caiinoi be disturbed at the option o! tlie Com|iaiiy, ib. 4238-4246. Witness lefers to and delivers in y3O3-305. 316, 317. Blan.\hard, Richard. (Ar.iilysis of his Evidence.') — Left En^^land for V^ancouvorV Island in 1H411, as the first tjovenmr of the isia id, and remained there nearly two year>, ,',097- 510;; Was a|)pointe ^ucc< ssor, 5202, 5203 System 1 f adinmistiation of justice, 5204-5209. Particulars as to a ilis|)iiie belv^'een witness .ind Mr. Douglas aboMt the rcgisier of a shi[i, 5210-5230 Assist^mce rather than iibstruclioii to colonisalion, so far as the Indiiiiis are concerned, 52;^,(i-5249 As in the United States so in Vancouver's 1-land, the red man noiild .soon ilisappi ar liefoie the march of civilisation, 5239-5243 V^ery little produeewas raised iii the island duiinn witness's residence, 52(i3-5-2(J4 iMemorial (iresent' d lo witness by the scltlers relative to the a|ipoiii*meiil id' a council on his retire- ment, 5269 Origin of the selilement of Oregon advened 10, 52"0-5274 Ample opporti.niiies of Mr. Cooper lor aequiting inforiiation upon llie .st;iic of the island, and upon its administration, 5275, 5271') Excellence of Esqiiimault Harbour, 5288. 530(1- 5312. As rciiards the l'u.:el Sound Company, its atiairs weie .so much identified with lho.se of ihe Hudson's Bay Compiiny that witness could never (listiiignish between ihe two, 5289, 5290. ,5313, 53' 4. 5342-5357 Comment on trie manner m which (.'aptain Laiigford was leceived and treated by the Ilinlson's Bay Com pany on his arrival in the island; natiiie of his connexion with thi Puget Souini Company, 5314-5344 Im- pression tiiat Mr. Douglas arted as manager tor ilit Puget Sound Company, 5340-5346 ^ — VVitiiess el<;ht years, Red River; of witness is I i);utly by a y hiiter sum [iidsoii's Bay erritory, and 74-4279. pay 300/. a the exertions 26. krry warlike, ivoiV Island yeai>, /^og;- ■ any control island tu the ?ry good and 7-a283 _ ^iiiit deal of e .iither ihan ivoi, (in the , 5114-5116, iiiuird race, itities whilst tributable to 5' 72-51 77 ot about ten 5148,5149. 5149- 0160, tlie governor JonsKJerable 11 the case of 1 aij a bar to vitness from • the oirice of ttle di-putes eiest.s I if the veiy kindly ler by some r(^sioned the ;i s-tor, 5202, legisier of a ' far a> the iver's i-land, 143— Very — Menional un Ins retire- 4 Ample c island, and 5288. 530fi- I with ihuse een llie two, ich (.'aptain .irrival in the i344 Ina- , 53^ 0-5346 Witness BLA C AL 475 'I 'f; ' Report, iS^y— continued. Blatishard, Richard. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. Witness nntierstood that any settlers and labourers were iniroduced by the Hudson's Bay Company, though in fact they may have been sent by the Puget Sound Company, 5347-5357- Boundaries: 1. More clear Definition recommended ; hnui far Important. » 2. Line of JBoundnry proposed on the part of Canada. 1. More clear Definition recommended ; how far Important : A clear definition of what ihe legal boundaries of Canada and of the Hudson's Bay territories really are is very important, lioss 23-27; Hon, W. H. Draper 4059. 4105, 410(1 Practical ineonvenience as regards the administration of jusiice, iSk,c., has not hitherto occurred, ihrougli the undefined character of the Canadian boundaries, Hon. W, H. Draper 4099-4101. 4146. Undue importance attached to the question of boundary. Right Hon. E, Eilice 5834. 2. Line if Boundary proposed on the part of Canada : Proposition that the exclusive rights and powers of the Hudson's Bav Company, and, at ihe same time, of Canada, be removed further north, and that the lino of boundary be that pioposed by the Company themselves in 1750; thi> line explained, Hon. W. H. Draper 4089-4096 The line should be in the parallel of Norway House, transferring to (yaiiada the tenitovy to the south, 16. 4090-4094. See also Canada, «. 7. 0. Territorial Rights. Bridget. Reason for no bridge having been built at lied River, though at St. Paul's a bridge may have been made. Sir G. Simpson 1981-1988 Many of the smaller streams in the settlement have been bridged over, ib. 1989. Buffaloes. Check to the habits of industry in the Red River settlement, in consequence of the tendency to hunt the svvanns of buffaloes in the neighbourhood, Lefroy 199, 200 The buffaloes NV\armtolhe north and souili of the Saskatchewan, and are not diminishing ill iiiiinber, ib. 199-201. 331 The buffaloes are in better condition in sumin. r than in winter, /A. 363, 3(54 The buffalo is only to be found in the prairie country, Rigtit Rev. Dr. Anderson 4330-433-. Caldwell, Lieutenant-Colonel Willimn. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Wont out to the Red Rivtr in June 184^, a-^ comtnander of a pensioner corps, and is 'jovernor of Assiniboia ; returned in October 1855; 6358,5359 Was appointed by the Hudsim's Bay Com- pany, 5360 His functions were judicial and legislative, 53(11. 5410-54I4. Tranquil coiidilion of Red River settlement in 1855; 5362 Large proportion of half-breeds in the seitlemeiit, 53(13 Troublesome conduct of the half-breeds when v»i ness arrived ; ihey require a stringent mode of oovernuient, 53(14. 5372 IMeans of livelihood ot the half-breeds, 53(15-5368 Considerable distance generally of the fur trading posts from Red River, £3(19-537 1. In.|irol)abili!y of increased settlement about Red River on account of its remoteness arwl the diflicultv of acce>s, 537;}-539'.! Great difliculties of the route from York Fac- to** to Red Rivri, as (ravelled by wiiiie~s and his faniilv wlien going and returning, 5376. 5fii5-56'23 Fiirticulnrs as to ilie enrolled pensioners, partly settlers and partly troops, with wiiom witness Kent out; some of them are still tliere, 6394-5406. 5564, 55(15^ Proniise of fiee grants of land under whieb the pensioners agreed to go out as emigrants, 5407-5409. 5556. As head ot the legislative and jndici.ii bodies, witness was assisted by a council and recorder, 5410-5414 Mr. Adam Tborn wa^ the recorder for some time diiiing wit- ness's governoislii|) ; he bad been in ofhce since 1839; 5413. 5423, 5424 Way in which the legislative council was composed and elected, 5415-5422 Sul)seq|^^■ntly to 1849 Mr. Thorn did not a' t as recorder ; but m 1852 he was appointed cleik of tlie court, anff filled that ofhce for two years, 5424. 5429-5435. 5440^ 544I. 5500-5502. 5505 — ■ — Strong public dissatisfactlcn with Mr. Thorn's judgments as recorder, 5425-5428. 5600- 5604. During Mr. Thorn's absence, -iihsequenlly to 1849, witness was sole adminisirafor of justice ('ave that there was i\ jury\ ami adopted very much tlii' plan used in military courts, 5437-5439- 55< 3, 5504 Particulars relative to the case of Foss t;. Pelly; interference o( Mr. Tliom thtreni ; grounds for thi conclusion that substantial justice was not (lone, 5442-5^16 — Reason wliy witness did not act as bond fide judge in the cose, notwithstanding Mf. Tho'ii's pnaeiue, 3484-5496. 5500-5502. 0.24— Sew. 3. 3 O 2 Explanation ■ 1^ ' ■ 476 C AL CAN I Report, 1857 — continued. Caldwell, Lieutenant-Colmel Wiiliam. (Annlysig of his E\\iience)— continued. ExplRiiatioii as to witness hRvins; rcc- ive'i iiirormation from London timt he had juris- diction ill civil catififi whicH, like tImt oC Foss v. Peily, involved damages of more than 200/. ; 5507-5,'-,i6. 55fli,559i Instancei of trial at Red River of cases of a capitiil nature, 5517-5519 FreMously to tlie invr-Kti^alioiis of the present Commiitee, witness was not aware that cupilal cases should be referred to the courts in Canada, 55'^o-5524. Giei^t improvement of ilie settlement whilst witness was there, 5525. 5527 Testi- mony 10 the exertions i>f the Bishop of Rupert's LhiuI in the cause of education, 5525, 5526 Consider.ilile excifenient in the col.ny, more espeiially in 1849, on account of the company's nioiiopnly of irailn on tlie 0!ie hand, anil, on the other hand, the attempts of the half-breeds to eairy on an illicit trade, SjaS-Sjioa- 5,593-5599- The pensioners in nhiirire nf witness relieved the^iri-^on at Red River, 56,'5;3-5553 — — It was found, on ilie arrival of the pensioners, thai the Company hud not surticient cul- tivable land to qive them, and so, to pievcnt dissatislaction, they were compensated in sums of money, 5557-5/)'J3 Swunipy character of the counti-y about Red River, 5562, 5563 Capaliijity ot cultivatio 1 sutticiiiit to support a considerable jiopiilation, 55(j6, Theinteri sts of the cc tnpany, as monopolists in tr.de, are opposed to col jnisntion,5 j68. 5631 For the hist year or t«o the ConipHiiy have been more stringent in their regu- lations about the sale of li'nd, 55f)8. 5572 Nature of the demand for laml, 5569-5571 Good social position of some of the liaU-breods, 5573, 5.J74 Devoted character of the missionaries, ,5575, 5576 Excellent etlect of Cini^tianity and settlemeni upon the Indians, ,1)577-55^3 Ditt'erent localities liir the Protestants and the Roman catiioiiis iif the cliristinnised Indians, 5581. Objection raised by the Governor of Rupert's Land to the formation of an Indian settle- ment at the Rapids, 5585. 5587 Non-discouragement of Indian setilements in Assiiii- boia wht'n witness was liovernor, 5586 Information relative to Pcgnis, chief of the SultauA lniliiin<, who has lately sent a petition to the House of Commons, 5589-5591 Iriee given by the ("onipmy to the Indians for pemmican, 5606, 5607 -Witness knoivi nothing of the Company's lur tariff, but believes that, on account ot the compe- tition at Pembina, (air pucts were given, 5(308-561 1 Since 1849 the illicit trade has been on the increiise, 561 i-,')6i4. There are' thiriy-three portiges on the route from Fort Yoik to Red River, 5621 Considerable expi nse of removing tlif obstructions to the navigation, 5622, ,-,623 Advantage if the occasi^niil floods could be pieveiited by removing the obstructions and impioviiig the outfalls, 5624-5630 With regard to the eflVct of the Company's rule upon the Indians, the monopoly tends to their preservation, 5631. Cameron, Mr. Exception taken to the appointment of Mr. Cameron as chief judge in Vancouver's Island ; he was not ee territory, ib. 10. 16. There was no desire in Canada ten ytars a;;o for the annexation of the Red River Colony, Croflon 3336-3338. The affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company have of late attracted growing attention in Canada, Hon. W, II. Draper 4147, 4148 Adverse feeling of Canada towards the poverniiiunt of the Company, lioche 4472. 4509, 4510 General feeling throughout Candida that the territory belongs to that country, or should be annexed to it, ib. 4472- 4490. litlief that among the Canadian people jjenerally there is not any great agitation against the exclusive liglits of the Company, Right Hon. E. Ellice 6054, 6055 The expectation by ceitaiii parties of a participation in the fur trade, is at the bottom of the agitation in Canada, ib. 6055. liefeience by the Committee to the growing desire in Canada that means of extension and regular settleineiit should be afforded over a poriion of the territory, Rep. p. iii. 3. Investigation by a Select Committee of the Canadian Legislature: Circumstance of ther>- being an official inquny now going on in Canada in regard to the availablcness of the Hud-oii's Bay Territory for the formation of communications and seuleiiients, Hon. H'. H. Dro/jcr 4210-4214 — — liel'ereiice to the select committee now sitting in Canada for inquiry, among other things, into the validity of the Company's charter, iiocAe 455S-4 561 The Committee will soon make their report, 16. Copy of the First Report of the Select Commiiiee of the Canadian Parliament, com- prising the evidence of Messrs. Gladiiian, Dawson, and M'Donell, App, p. 385-402. Considerable weight attached by the Committee to the evidence laid befoie them, which was taken before a committee of tlie Legislative Assembly, Rep. p. iii. 4. Evidence in favour of the Annexation of certain Portions of the Hudson's Bay Territory to Canada, and of their Settlement and Administration by that Country : Suggestion that so fast as the Canadian Government might wish to open up any part of the territory for settlement, they should give notice th< reof to the Company, who should within a certain period surrender the territory indicated, Ross 11.55.59 Illustration of the uitticulty which would probably aiteiid a system of settlement by the Canadian Government similar to the system under the Ordinance ol 1783,1/'. 56-()0 With proper means of communicaiion the Canadian Government could extend its system of administration not only to the lied River, but to any other settlement that may be foimeil, 16.63,64. 124-126. Practicahility and advantage of vesting in the Canadian Government the administra- tion of the Hudson's Bay 'territories east of the Rocky Mountains; suggestions hereon, Isbister 2436 et setj. 2525 et sey. Evidence in favour ot annexiuj? all Rupert's Land to theGovernmtni of Canada, tb. 2436 et seq. 2525 etseq. A custom-house or a small garrison at Red River, would keep the whole country uuder control, tV^ 2441-2445 Approval of gradual annexation to Canada, accordingly as any portion o the territory i>iay i)e fit for settlement, ib. 2446 Great importance of aggregating 'he territory to Canada, with a view to the fur trade taking the route of L;ike \Vinni;)eg and Lake Superior, rather than the uimaiural loiiie of Hudson's Bay, ib. 2528-2549. 2629, ".630. Eimmeratiun of three points in which the intjuiry hefoie the Committee atl'ects the intciests of Canada, Hon. W. H. Draper 40,",5 Proposition that Canada should have a tree right to explore and survey the Coaipany's territorits, in order to a»ceriain the capabilities of the country, ib. 4060. 4073 Also to open communication roads, by putting settlers on eac h side of them with tree grants, ib. 4ot)0 AUo to lay out town- ships, and to iiicoiporate them with the province as soon as they WRfe settled, it. 4060 et set/. Also that the right of survey and settlement by Canada extend only to the Rucky Mountains, 16.4060,4061. 4104. 0.9.4 — Sess. 2. 3 O 3 Inability \'i i hiP 478 CANADA. Ri'|)oit, 1857 — continued. i\ t ' :lii,li Canada — continued. 4. Evidence in favour of Annexation of Portions of Territory, (Sfi-.--contiiiui;d. Inn iity o( Ciinaila iit the present iiiouieiit <'lHcioiiiiy to govern the v.i^t extent of country east of the Rocky Mountuin», Uon. W. H. Draper 4062. 40(14 Surveys and commiiiiieatioiis must first be mude, ih. 40()a-4o64 If there be an iii-.u|)eriible tiarrier to CDiiiiiiiinication between Cuiiiida atut the Keu Ruir, &c,, ;ui aniiexaiion ol' thu latter to the former could not be contended (or, ih. 4065. 4077. Evideui e in favour of the Red River Scttionicnl, &f., being in time govermd as an inteirral |part of Cmiada ralhei tlinn its a scpiiiate Diiti^h coh>ny, lion. W. If. Draper 4065-4076 Ad interim form of u;oviTnnirnt, which might be ailoptcd at the Red River Settlenieiil, uniil the representativ.s of thi' counirv could attriKj thf Cinadian legisiiiture, ib. 406(). 4070-407'2. 4it)|), 4170 Willinm>e-.8 of Oauaihi to undertake the expense of survey an. 419()-4198 Disposal already of the uftuter part ol the availalile hnd in the western parts of Canada; home ihe desire to settle the prairie country of tlie Hudson's Hay territory, iiucAe 4 1S4, 4485. 4 -98- 4J0f'- 0. Terri/orial Claim of Canada in regard to the Hudson's Dai/ Territory : Circumstance of Canada having laid claim to the Hudson's Hay tcrriloi'ii'S ; grounds on whicli founded, Isbisti'r 2410, 2411. '^423, 2424. With regard to ihe claim of thr Hudson's Day Company to the legal posses-ion of all lands liiained by any stroa\ns, no ni itter liow remote their sources may l)>\ which flow into the Hudson's Bay Straits or Hudson's Hay, witness disputes the validity of such claim, and delivers in a paper {.4pp. p 378-380) in support of his view of the subject, Hon. iV. H. Draper 4O,")()-4058 This papiT comprises extracts from documents ema- nating fri'm the Company theul^elves, and rrprcsents everything which may be considered as favourable to the Company, ib. .^nrf-, T"o dcfinitio is by Act of the boundaries of Canada, ib. 4097, 4098 Tb • Caiia ban Government claim the country up to the Pacific, ib. 4103. Witness has buen piepaiing evidence as 10 the title of (Janada to the territory, but (^^anadiau i.oundaiics, App. p. 378-380. Staieuicnts as made respectively by Messrs. M'Doik}!! and Dawson iiplun' the select committee in Canada, lelative to tlie Ixnindaries of C.mada and of the Hudson's Bay Teriitoiy, App. p. 386,387. 39;)-39i) Statement l>y Mr. Daw on that the districts of the Saskatchewan and Ked River belong to Canada, ih. 39.")-399. 7. lionndinies of Canada us defined tirj the Ail 14 Geo. ;}, r. S3 : As regards the bniiidari. s between ihe Hndsmrs Bay territory an j CiMada, the Act 14 Geo. 3, c. 83, clia! ly deiiiies the limits of the latter, Riijht Hon. E. E/lice .',833, 5834. 8. Proposed Refert'nce of the Question of Boundary to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council : Eviilence in support of a sugg.'Slion made bv witness in n letlnr to the Colonial ■ Secretary on the 6ih Mav, that the question of boundary between tlu province of Canada and the territory of tlie Hudson's Bay Company in- referred to the .liilicial Committee of the Privy tjonncil, Hon. W. H. D/vz/jcr 4 1117-41 oi). 41l<)-4l'i( Witness his express instructions to retain counsel to represent the province, and has, he conceive*, a discretionarv '[ I ^ CAN C AP 479 Ueport, 1H57 — coiitiiined. \ 1; CaSADA—cowI l\Mi\. 8. Proposed Reference of the Qncttion of Doundury, ^c. — continued. (liHcri'tKiiiai V power to take tlic initiative Ijet'ore the Judicial Committee nf Privy Cniincil, but looks nillier 10 the Crown to procure the reference and the decision, Hon. iV. H. Draper, 4i'22-4l34 WilJiiiijnesM ofCunuda to nbide by the decisiim of the Committee of Privy Council, 16. 4176, 4177. Opinion (if thi! Attomev-ijrneral and Solicitor-jjeneral that the important question of the bonniiaric* nf the Hudson's Bay 'I'eriilories rni^ht ivith ^^reat utility, as between tlie Conipiinj niul Canada, be icferred under certain conditions 10 a (Committee of tiii Privy Coiincil, App.p, 404. Letter Ckii.i the Rii;ht lion. 11. Liibouclnre 10 the chairman nf the Hudson's Bay Conipinv, dated 15 July l8j7, encjosinf; a passage from a staieineiit by the law officers of tlie Crown, with reiiard 10 a reference of the questioi of boundary to the Judicial Conimiitee ol the Privy Cimncil, App.p. 404, 405. Letter in reply, dated iH July 1857, siatiiii; that the Directors of thi' Company are prepared to recommend 10 the sharehuhJi rs ihe coui8e suggested by the lo^al advisers of the Cidwii, App. p. 405, 4o(). 9. Olijeotiuns to the propositi Adminhtraiion by Canada of certain Portions of Ike Hudson's Bay Territory : Obstacles to tlie tulmiiii-traticm or gov:Mnmetit by Canada of the Hudson's Bay Terri- toiies, Sir J. Jiichardsoii 2043-2945. 295fj-296i Anticipated interruption tt the piesint peaceful state ol the country if it vvere annexed to Canada, and the fur trade ilirowo (>\ien, ib. '^1)45. .'(((lo, 29G1 Pruvided means be taki n to preserve order, and to prevent the abuj^i of spirituous liquois, thire would be no objection to attach to Canada the Ki'd Kiver, or any other district available for settlement, ib. 2956-2901. Great difficulties and expense which vvouhl attend the government by Canada of the Red ]{iver Territory, Ri((ht Hon. E. lUlice 5838-5845 Advantage of the country, iii- cludini; the Red River Settlement, beiiiij, at least for -omt- time to come, sroveiiiud by the Company raiher than by Canada, ib. 5836-5841- 10. Views of the Committee in favour of Annexation, conditionally, to Canada : The Committee consider that it is essential to meet the just and reasonable wishes of Canada, to be enabled to annex to her teintory such portion of the land in her iieigll- bouibood as may be available to her for thj purposes ol settlement, with which lands she is willing to open and maintain coniiiiunicatioiis,ai'd for whieh she will provide the means of local adiiiinisiratioti. Rip. p. iii, tv. See ii\so Boundaries. Colonisation and Settlement. Fur Trade, 12. i3. Indians, 0. tt. Legiilation. Red River Settlement, a. 9. 10. Spirituous Liquors, 3. Vancoughnet, Mr. Canadian Frontier. The Hudson's Bay territory on the frontier of Canada is particularly ill-adapted for settlement, Rois 18; Lefroy i66. Canal Commtinicalicn. Question as to the advantages and practicability o*" canal com- munication between Lake Superior and Rainy Lake, Sir J. Richardson \iiSO-^i[,S. Cannibalism. Si e Indians, 2. Canoe Communication. The toute by Fort William to L;itc Winnipeg is all ranoe work; ii has not bei 11 improved ol late years. Sir J. Richardion oO.'33~30,')8 Great expense of canoe communication, ib. 3059, 3060. See also Nat^igation of the Lakes and Rivers. ( apital. The (".i) itnl stotk of the Company now stands at half a million ; pailiculais hereon, Riylit tt'.m. E. Ellice 5802. 58prt-5902 In lS-2l the capital of the united companies, thai is of the North-west and Hudson's Bay Companies, was 400,000/. ; how made u;', ih. 5802. 5973-,')!)76 The increase of 100,000/. since the union of tlie com- panits Was pttrtly or entirelv eltected by the ad'lilion of undivided profits, ib. 5802. 5900- 5902.5977-5984 Besides the caintal on which dividends are paid, the Company hold liige y— continued. Capital — foniinued. Purticiilars of the capital of the Company on I June iK.ijG; total of 1,265, 0H7 '• 'Q*- 4'^- from all Bourcc!', App- p. 449. Mtirkit. price» of stock, ex divideiid, in Jimuaryand July in theyenr« i8^7-,j6, App.p, 449 Of 26« proprieiors in July 1856, 196 have purchased thi'ir ock at from a-io to 'J40 per cent., 16. Carriage of Goods. Good* inforht be conveyed between Fort William tind Red River for about I o /. a ton, Kernagltan 1 1 ;j8-2 1 4 1 . See also Freights. Cattle. Domestic cattle and hrrseg are 10 be found at some of the Company's I'orls in the interior, Lefroy 361,362 Calile can be fid in the country, and can live tlirongli the winter, C/ir6(r« U730-2733. Census. 1 he Company have made attempts from ♦ iie to time in former years to ti-.ke a census, but the papers are not in tliimouiitry, Sn (j. Simpson 1474-1482 The c^'nsus or esiiinate ol Colonel Lclruy was luade in 1H43, ami that of M;i)or Wmi^jli in 1845, 16, 14H4 Reference to the census as made l)y the Company eery five or six yeura, Cr'38, „. the exclusive tr.ide with tin- Indiuns in certain parts of Noiih America for a I' 'hir term of twenty-one years, 16. 414 '16 Copies or ex ti acts of the correspond. •■ ■ which took place at the last renewal of me I'haitcr between the Government and the Company, n, of individu ils on helialf of the Company; also, the daus of all fornit r charters 01 grams to the Company, tV*. 417-434. Doulit as to how far the chartered rights claimed by the Company may prove an obstacle to tlie carrying out of the objects which the Com.niitee think it desirable to attain, liip. p. iv. Cherokee ludiam. Successful colonisation by Indians shown in the c ise of the Cherokcis ni the Unitid States, Rue 66G-669 ; Right Rev. Dr. Andfrson 4399, 4400. 4418. Chiaiyo. Reference to Chicago as having a rapidly increasing population if aboiit 1 10,000, Keriiughan 2189-2191. Chipewyan Indians. Some Chipewyan Indians in ihe far noith do not come int 1 coninmni- caiion with the Europeans, Lefmy 340 'l"he Chipewyans and the more northern tribes are increasing, King 5677. 5683 'I'lie Chipewyan races have always stcaddy refused to take spirits, il>. 5692-5694. Chippcwas Indians. The Chippewas in Minnesota are said to he incrc' ."', Roche 4520 The Chippewas were some years ago almost a settled people, ant' ivc 'iiiependcnt of I he fur trade. King 5677. Christianity. From 8,000 to 10,000 Indians are more or les'a influenced by Christianity and Piotestantism, i?/gA< Rev. 7Jr.^l;/c/t'r««« 4248. 4256 Exclusive of pure Kuropeaiis, theie are not more tlian 14,000 or 16,000 Christians of all sects of Indian origin in Rupert's Land, ib. 4282-4290. Excellent eflert of ChristianUy and settlement upon the Indians, C Id.cell 5577-,)u''3 Difl'ercnt localities for the Protestants and Roman Catholics ot 'he christianistil Indians, ii. 55S1. Chunh Missionary Society. Eleven English clergymen in the Company's territories besides witness, and three native clergymen, are provided and paid by the Church Missionary Society, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4236. 4249 Conslderahle amount of good effVctel hv Ihe operations of the Church Missionary Society, both in a social and ■. ■•eligions point of view, ib. 4247, 4248. 4251. 4255, 4256. 4262-4273. 4296-4291 Stateme.il delivered in, dated Church Missionary House, 4 June l'-57, respecting the operation of the society in North-west America, ib. 4249 Statistics as to the stations, the mis- sionaries and assistants, the communicants atid the scholars, ib. — Comparative expen- diture of the society during each of the ten years from 1847-48 to 1856-57, ib. In 1847-48 the expenditure was 1,910/.; and in 1856-57, 5,672 /,, ib. See also Minionaries and Missionary Settlements. Churches IIT CH U COC 481 Report, xSsj— continued. Chiirchft. The company are building a church flt Moose and another at York, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 434;), 4344- See nUo Grand Rapids Dittrict. Civil Law and Juriidiction. Juiiidictiun. Sec Adminislraliun of Justice. Fast Pelly. Civilisation. Sie Christianity, Church Missionary Socifty. Colonisation and Selitemi-nl. Education. Indians, 3. Minsionariea and Miisionary Sucieties, Relij^ious Instruction. Climalf. Uncertainty imd intensity of the climate iidvened to, us being very iinr»vourable to [({.jiicnllunil cnltiv^ition, Lcfroy 1(17. i82-l8(). 221. 253. 26,r,-302 There has noi hten, and ihcie is not lik< iy to be, any nnuliorution of" the climate in the Coinpiiny'd territorieK, or in Cunad<), in co iseqnence of settlement and improved cultivaiion, ib. i8g. •iiO'-vM. 240-242 Rofirence 10 purts of the territory as buirti^ perniiinenily frozen undei-i:round, and as thus rendi rjn>; the production of ccroiils exceeihngly uncertain, ib, 274-281 Milder charuciorol the cliniato accordini: a* the country is nearer 10 the Pacific, 16. 24c). 2().'5- 273 Len th of the winter at St. Peicrsburt;!! adverted to in com- parison with the winter in paits of the Hudson's liny terriioiics, ih. 25()-2()4. Effect of the constant ice in Hudson's Bay in prevcntini^ any mitigation of the climate by clearance of the woody country, W«« 395 Difference hotween the climate of tho (irkneys and of Yoik on Hudson's Hav, ib, 434-438— — Leiiittli of the winter in the dis- trict south of Lake VVninipcit, ib, 439-443 Less riijorous character of the climate in the hinils to the west as well as 10 the south, Sir G, Simpson 743-74(3 Doubt as 10 cliinaie being iiiitigu'cd by settlement and cultivation, ib. 757-759. 828-831. iiemarks on the circuinslaiii'e of the subsoil being permanently frozen in the more iiorihcrn parts of ilu! teiritoiy; if ihe thaw be sufHciently deep, ilie frozen subsoil by no mciins [irt veins agriculture or vegetation, hbistir 2640-2()4j). Almost everywhere north of tilty-seven degrees of laOtude a portion of the <;round is permanently fiozen, Sir J. Jiic/inrdsun 2921, 2922 ^The temperature is milder on the west tlian on the tiist of the Rocky Mountains, but i< less mild ihan the temperature of li;uio|)c in similui' latitudes, ib. 2922. 2928-2933 Greater depth of frost .iccording as the timber is cleiired and ilie country becomes open, lb. 2923-2925 At Fori Franklin end the Grciit Bear Lake the winter may be !.aid ti liisl lor ten months, ib. 292(), 2927 Thronuhout a great part of the country the trees are frozen to ilie hear-, ;'6. 2934, 2935 Permanent ice in some ot the lakes, ib. 3089 Improvement of ihe clim.itc if the marshes and swamps wi're drained, ib, 309D, 3091 . During wiiness's expediti'au- the winter months were spent in making scientific obser- vations and ])roc uriiig food, liavelling then beiliL; iinpiacticable. Sir (Jeori^e Back -.^^G 2, 34*'3' 3470- 3489-3492 Evidence as to the coldness of the elimate at Fort Kcliance and other of ihe more northern poin;;s, ib. 347-3477- 3499-3 jO'- 3531-3535- 354'>- 3548. Superiority of the climate west of the Rocky Mountains as compared with that (^ast of the mountains. Cooper 3>)24-3926 Rigour of the climate and failure of the crops in Lower Canada as well us in tiie Hudson's B-ay territory, Hon. ]V. H. Draper 4.:oi, 4202 The country has not been siilhciently cleared to produce any amelioration of climate. Right Rev. J)r. Anderson 4321-4325. P.issages in statements laid before the Select Committee in Canada, relative to the climate of different parts of the territory, App. p. 390, 391. ^oo, 401. See also Colonisation and Settlement, 1, 2. Red River Settlement, 5. Sas- katchewin River, Summer Frosts, Vancouver's Island, IS. Coal, C-rcumstance of there being a bed of workable coal near Edmonton, one of the more eastern forts, Lej'roy 255-257 With regard to the coal on the Saskatchewan, &c., it is a tertiary coal, and of very tolerable quality, Isbister 2652-2(554 Large and available supply of coals towards the source of Asstniboine River, Corbett 2715-2718 Inferior character of the coal op. the Saskatchewan and JNIackeiizie, Sir, I. Richardson 2915,291(3. 3114-3119 On Parry's Islands, &c. there are some secondary coal formations, 16. 3119-3121. See also Vancouver's Island, 14. Cochrane, Archdeacon, Reference to a letter from the Rev. Mr. Taylor, agent of the Propagation Society, to witness, in w'.ich he speaks of an attempt by the Company to leiiiove Archdeacon Cochrane froiii i'ortage-la-Prairie, Corbett 2687-21)91. 0.-24 — Sess. 2. 3P CoLOfflSATIOS m 48i C O L O N' I S A T I O N, kc. Ui'|ioit, lH/J7 — coiilintieil. "^S, 104- li;} li i^' li("*t miiii'il • •< ill the 1 ill.- Uriitvd I 1)11 poriioiis !|>!>8!s, ih. riifd on, ,h. .rZ. Colonisation and Sbttleiuknt: 1. {/iifitiiesi fierifriilli/ of l/tr Territory for Si'ttleiiient or I'uUivation, 2. Feiili'mt III II ciinlrnrij Purport. 'A. liuompnliliUifi/ nf Colon 1 sal inn with Sfonopohi in Trndr. ■I. ('o)ir>c nriitiimriiilnt on rgjiarils the Lund fit for ScttleiHt'iic, ft. Ejrpfdir.m'ii of SfllUmiut Xorl/i of Ihv Amninin Frontier. C). WiHinfim'ss of the (oiiipniii/ to f^ire up mii/ I. mid mjiiiifd for Settlement. 7. ( 'oiiililiiin.i, IIS regards Coloiiisntioii, in ihe Livrme of lll3tl. 8. /imiiiiiuindiiliiiiiH of the Cmnmittee with a ciVir lo the Adeancemenl of Cotuni^iilion. 1. Unfitness gineruUy of the Territory for StII lament or L'littivntion: 'I'll*; I'ouiitiy iiciierully f" oil) Liiki' Sii|icruir Id tin Red Hiver is not iid^ptcd ("i- settle- niciit, bfiiiii iirokeii mid iutrrsucicd by s.v.uiipH to si vets uicut fixti-nl, liosi l'2. i.|7 There in not any pmi nC ilv tciriioiy on tlit! (roniifi- oC Ciin.ida which is lik iibubdity of cnloiii-its hcatiiii; iheiiiscWc^^ it liny uniit diHuiiK'c ui'8t III (.\iiiiid,i i I preli'M'iK't' 1 1 tixinu on iitiiiniiblo points uMiir the m tiled |i;ins ol C'aiiiidii mid tin- ^reit liiii-M of coniinuim'uiioii, W"ss 7- InipirHsioii ill Oiii.ii'ii lliiii ilie mure noitliiiii pint ol the loiiiloi to ti c fur trade, i^ llie best iidii|)tf d tor settlement, ib. io2. \V, neHs ciisiders ill t ii^rii'idtiiral -1 Itk'neii' iiiii make but bi territmy, I efioy ' fi;^ et set/. Absenep of miv ,)ressiire from '' 8t«les to -Pttle III ihe C ninaiiy's territoiv, ib. I'.M-'i);} ' '"' of tile tcrrili'iv do not prove that smli pcrtioiis are fitted for a;; 111 2l;j-'j|() Kniiiner.iii not tiie poinis where ciiiliviiiioii i-i mori' es, ib. 240 ^li;;ht liiduoement lo einiijraiitu 10 Hettb at the Red River, ^v. 'Ihe more norther 1 portion of ilie teiritory is not nipable df a^iieiiltural cultivaiioii, save IIS reiird-- barley, Uae ;i7(!, ;i77. ;}f)i Helief that a si ll-siiiiiiuriin^' eoloiiy eoiibl noi nt present exist itt Itamy L ike or otlnr niori- Ikvounibl' district*, ?7>. .■,73-,'')7n Clianu ter id' tite ((uiiilry north nf l.nke Siipei ior, nid between Foit U ilbam iiiid lied Hiwr ; It is vei v id adapted lor sellleiii' at, ami is ubiiost iliipruel eable lor travelling;, ib. ,577-1)01, C04. (JiiK-(il7. ()'24-();3l. W itiie-s does iioi eoiisiilei thai aiiv part of 'lie terriiorv is well calculated foi lettle- nieiii, Sii (r. .Simpson 71I! I't sei/. IJiicerl.iinl v of ilie erops lliriaijjliout the wliole of Kiijicri's Lund and at the Rtil lliver settlemriii, ili. 7i(5-72;j. 7^:7. Hoj-Sio Natural obatacb s to the siipp.rl da e iloiiy embracii'^ llie lied Ituer settlement, aini cxleiidiiig to l.aki Winnipei; and (^aiiiberhmd House, itc. ib. 1420-14;;! Opinion that north of forly-iiiiie deurees llieie is no bind suitable lor a colony of any extent, ib. 2055) et sei/. (ieneral desciipdon of the CMUiitry, 10 the eti'eet that, save in a few place's, and to a slitibt extent, it is not 1 apable of cultivation, or fit for settleni. nt, Sir ./. Richardson ■ii^[\H el seq. Duisioii olthi; loiintrv easi ol llir Roekv Muimtaiiis iiilo three distiietB, all iiioie or le •• unfit lur eiiltivaiio'i, j/>. -.i'SijC)- 2093 'I'll' iiortli-easterii portion of die. coiitiiieni (Iocs iioteoniain any uod, md will not produce j^rain under any circuiiistances, ib.i[y>\ Until the srulene ,it of ('aiiada li is aduineeil lo the |{e I lliver, and n., ids have been opciii d, it 1^ verv unlikely that any settlement «ill take place beyond the Red River, th. 2yo2. 303;}. I'll' ureatiT part of tlii c iiiitrv on the north shire of Lake Superior is rocky and entirely destituti! of sod, Sir. I. Riehnrd^on 29')4-j()o(J lietvveeii liie west-end of Lake Superior and l.iki W ninipci;, atier passiny; Doj^ Lake, tlu' land lias no |iiirlieiilar eapa- bi.iiijs ;or setliiiucnl, ii. 2907, 2()o8 • ~- Lais;>- district ulony llie iiorlh sale of Lake bupeiior and bit^eeii il ami Ked River, wliii li must In.' oci'iipied before settler- will flock to Uid lliver, ib. 3o3;)-3"4l — IncieasMj; and pojiiilo'iN Anieiieuii setllenieiiis on Lakes Iliir' n and Mu'lii;;an, and llir(iiii;liout IlliiiO'S, inlvi lU'd to as niainlv resiiltiiijj from steam boa' and railroail eonimunicatiiai, ib. 30')o-3072 Slij;ht alluvial deposit lid't bv till' (lends, lb. 3oH(l-3oH8. Isolated (diarac'er of ilie | | in tu-t of the Rorkv Mounl.iiiis, which prevents its lieiii;^ coloiiisid; Oic'^on, Miiiiusota, and Utah aiKeitetl to liercor, (-V'//o« 3274-32S3 V( rv .-low progri »s of bttilemeni and civiJH.itioii in the Company's lerritory ; doubt whether it has iiiireased at all for many year-, Itight Hon. E. Ellice 5821, 2. Eviilence lo a contrary Purport : If proper fiicdilies wi re given by the Hudson's liay Company the Red River anrl other ly L-omiiany itorv, AeriiOi ilistri. ts Would be settltd lioiii the Aim ricaii u rritorv, A'lTHWgAan 2227-2231.2237- 224I) Consideiable settlement ;.oiiio on upon the Aincrican maiiil.iU'l opposite yancouvei's l>l;iiid,//i>;/. C. H. (r./'drwt//(((//i, .W.J'. 22(12-2204. 23(13-23(3,5 Cultivable character o( tlii islands between \'ai;cuuver's Island and the mai.dand,ii. 2341-234(3. Anticipaied scitleimnt by the Canadians of the district between Lake Superior and Winnipeg, if |)id]icr (iicilities be given, 7sii4's diil ■ ^illclle^Vil I or Hcd llivi 1 disliiots, hul liclicvcs ihcy iiic iiiiich u.ore northern tract soutii of the Atlmnnscn Luke, //). ,",')()ti- :ii qncHti 'II I- cqii-d to Cntmda in its fiuiess lor colotiisation, Coi,ON\HATlON AND SuTTl.KM I ST — continued, 2. Evidence t'> a contrary I'lir ')r/— continued. to the f:-hniatt>, hnrlttVi ""'*< *"•' |>otiit(>c« may be riiiirte mi^hi I'c fornud and Rctth;d noiitli oC tlie C'oi.t Mu"" Luke, ib. ar/ifi-yjyo — — I'l .L'ticabjiily 1)1 Jinriouliiire \vhiri>M!r the hic '-'w Kccoiiilary fi.riiiation (ncum, ait lirtw/cn the .;rcat lakcw and the Rock 1 in tiiin . •l^^\\{\. •J')54, 'i(io,">. Briiet li to ihe fitiiihH of n jrrtal \>' rtion of the cdiiiiiry lor >cttl< nienl, Hon. W- H, Dra/Hr 4I'2H Pofsihihty ot ii^ncultiirc and Hetllciiii nt iilon^r ih' inoiu southern p-.irallelK of th'' Itrriuiry; purliciilar | ointK advumd to hirion, liifpit Rev. Dr. Amlernm 4294 4;)0,r, tt sea. 4;J5'i et <»"'/• — —Any Huttlcmcnt from Cimiida niii.-t udvaiicf inituriilly anil very gradnuily, M'Lmujnlin 5089. WitnesH triivi lied thi(tiii;li the UudHon's May lerrilnrv iVoiu l8u;} to 1836, an tation, \j>p. p. \\hi) tt setj. I'uK-iaues, in st iteiiieiiiH ia'd b (re the Select Connnittee in •'.inadii, vi I rliV' lo the soil in ditli lent par's of the territory, and its fitness lor cultivation, ib. ;]H j-3g4. 400-402. 3. Inrompatibililif of t'i)l<>iiix(tlion witli Mvnopuly in Trade: Probability of the Company^ inierest beiiijf <)|)poHe'l to a syatem of seitlom nt, Rue C48-(ir,4 Bui for the Hudson's Buy Compuiy there is no reason why th re should not he on the Brinsh shurr ol' I,, ike Supeiior a siuiiiar settlement to that of the I own of Sii|M nor on the AnieiuMii shore of thi' lake, Krrniighiin 2I4;)-2I45 Facilitiis lor milling operation-, aiwl settlement on the American side of Lake Sti|ierior, there heme- no KU( li tilcilities in the Bi iiish teni'ory, ib. 2'.! 17-22:1. 2224- 2227 Unless the lur tia Ic is throun open there will ii 'I be sufficient iniliiceinent to settlers to eniii^rate, hbhicr 2 150 ; Sir .1. Ric/iardson will). :]\;][i Settleinunl at the Red River, &.C. n> el ii.t int. ilero with llie trade ; the Indian^ ihere mi.;hi be reiiuived further north, .Sir J. Uichnn/son 3'32':)'34' 3l44-3'4'^ I'.xlensive settUineiu would |)robably injure the lur trade, and would rucjune a stioiii; (love ninent to pre>ci ve ir.inipiillity, ib. 3142, 3143. Incoinpaiibilitv ol a poweifnl Coinpuny aitcinptini: to colonise, Coo/ier ;j()t)2 F'ro- bability of tli(! adininisiralion of the Hiids m's Bay C'om|iimy bavin'.' prevented setilement from Canada, //on. H. /Y. /^rH/yf)- 4o(JH, 40(1;) 'Ih. non-seitienient of the leirilories goes to prove that sttl lenient is not compatible with the iiili rest ol iho C 'iiip.iiiv, ib. 4I2(), 4127 Expense lo the Company in su|)portiiu setilements like ihat at Red River, ib. 417H, 4171). Witness does not consider (lie {^oveninient of the (\impany favourable to s. tth inent, Hil^lit Rev. Dr. AniliTioii 42<) ',-42(),',. 4349-43.')5 The L'om|inny oppose seti.emeni as iiiereainj; the heal ex|)(iises id' Red Rivei colonv, i/). 4350-4;5.j;;. 4432-4440 Tlioigh an incre.ise of |)opul .lion wcnild cause iiu leased expense of LOvernn'.eiil, it woiml also increase ilu! nieaii^ of government, ib. 4434-4440, Feelina in Canada that t.e in ino|)i)ly of the Coini.aiiy is a har to selllemeni, Itochc 4501), 4510 The interests ol the Company in Vanconvei's Island wi re o|i|iusid to colonisation, lUaiishnrd oi()li. ,'jt!t7 TlKMntt rests ot the Ci;in|)iinv, as nioiiopoli'l-- in trade, are opposed lo colonisaiion, C/;/(/«y7/ .-'jflfiH. [fi\^\ The Conipanv had not in the sliohti St (iegre(! devel.iped the resources ol the eountrv when witness was theie in »«33-3''. i^iiigifim- A fur eoiiij)aiiy Ciin h.ivi' very little to do with eohmis itioii, liiyht Hon. E. Eilice 5931 — Ihe (Joiiipany cannot underlake to sink capitil in colonisintj impiaciu'ible localities; they have spiMit ki'^e siini^ wheie settlement was desirabh , ih. ;")y3i-,j<)34 It does not follow that the maintenance of the trade in British Noitii Anieru a >liould be incompatible with colonisaiion ; the irade would only he driven further north, where the best furs aie found, ih. 5941-5949. 4. Course recommended as reg:irds the Land fit for Settlement : Necessity of the Comji.iny lelinqiiishing their hiiniiiig lights over any pait of the territory which may lie required lor settling or lor the railway, Ross 47-54 Advan- tage if some arrangement could he made whereby the Conii)aiiy should give up the lands 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 P 2 capable h l\i IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 11.25 |5fi 112.5 6" i;- IIIIIM 1 1.8 1.4 ill 1.6 ^1 <^ /#/ 'c^l >." 7: 'W °w Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 iV ^^V "% V ^^ "V c\ c> %^ ts '%' w : 1^:^; ■ ■> e : !'*■■■ : ^ !J:v t'-' I i «',! :;V I i;, .I'l^-M'*' 484 COLONISATION, &c. Reporl, 1 857 — continued. Colonisation and Settlem ENT—conimued. 4. Courte recommended as regards the Land Jit for Settlemenl — continued. ciipaMe of culliiation and retain the iiunting grounds and the district.) fit for notliing bat tile iur trade, Rae 3Hn-387. 648. » The most valuable portion of the territory for settlement. lies in a parallel of latitude south of Norway House, and witness propuses a boundary line accordingly, Hon, W,H. Draper 4090-4096 This line was pioposed by llie Company theniAelves in 1750,16. 4092. 4096. Proposition that a line be drawn from the Norway House, along the southern branch of the Saskatchewiin to the Kooky Mountains, and that the teriitory south of this line be open to trade and colonisation, M'Laiighlin 4933-4936. 4961-4964 The Hudson's B'ly Compiiny should st.ll exercise jurisdiuti(m in the leriiiory nurihorthe proposed line, but should not hove »n exclusive risiht 10 the fur trade, ib, 4937-4948— —The proposed colony might ea^iily be goveined from the Red River, 16. 5088. 6. Expediency of Hetllement North of the American Frontier : Measures 10 be apprehended on the part of the United States unleos the territory north of the frontier is settled and conveyed to the Canadian GoveiniTie>it, hhisler 2449. 2633- 2638 Strong feeling in Canada, in which witness joins, that unless something be done to settle and colonise the country on the Aini-'ican Irontier it will ceaan to be British territory, Hon. W, F, Draper 4062, 4063. 4088. 4129. 4220 Witness i« not aware of any Hctuiil encroachments by American citizi-ns across the boundary, t6. 4136 Interest of the Company to prevent Aineiican inroads over the frontier, ib. 4183-4186. Expediency of openinu; \\\> the communication beiween Canada and Red River, and settling the lioiitier cuuiiiry from Lake Superior to the Kocky Mountains, Right Rev, Dr. Anderson 43,56, 4357. 4370-4380. 4414 Unless the country to the south be placed under the liriiish Government, it will soon be squatted over by Americans, McLaughlin 5096. Great dithculties and expense in the way of formation of a British colony towards the American fiontier as a protection atrainsl Ameiiciin encroachments. Right Hon. E. Fllice 5842-5847. 6032-6046 Impi'obitbility for very many years to come of any tHrcijin settlement in the southern portion of the Hudson's liay territory, ib. 6028, 6029 In the event of forcible encroachiiieni the Company would naturally apply for help to the Government of this country, 16. 6028. 6. Wiltingnesa of the Company to give up any Land required for Settlement : The Company would not object generally to the formation of new settlements, Sir G, Simpson 1283, 1284 Non-objection to a settlement and distinct administration of any cultivable part of the Cimipany's territories, provided interference with the fur trade be interdicted, ib. 1635-1644. 1666-1674. 1847, 1848. Propriety of the Company j-iving up t(» Canada any land required for settlement: willingness of the Company to do so, Uight, Hon, E. EUice 5834, 5835. 5839. 5933 Whenever coloiiisation is piacticable or de>irable, the rights of the Company should not interfere, ib. 5850. 5860-5864. 5O67. 5906, 5907. 5933. Statement by the Governor of the Hudson's Bay (-orapany as to the willingness of the Company to cede any lands required f.ir cultivaiion and settlement, App. p, 405. 7. Conditions, at regards Colonisation, in the License of 1 838 : Several conditions relative to the erection of colonies, as agreed to by Uie^Company, on the receipt of the license of 1838, App, p. 430-434. 8. Recommendation of the Committee with a view to the Advancement of Colonisation : The Committee consider that it is essential to meet the just and reasonable wishes of Canada to annex to her territory such portions of the neighbouring country as are avail- able for purposes of settlement. Rep, p, iii, iv. Means should also be taken for the ultimate extension of colonisation over any portion of the continent, to the west of the Rocky Mountains, on which permanent settlement may be found practicuble. Rep. p. iv. See also Alexander Fori. Athabasca Lake. Frontier. Cattle. Climate, Coal. House, Duties on Imports. Edmonton. River, Free Grants of Laud. Fuel, by the Company, 2. Indians, 3. Manitobnh. Mdilary Force. Ottawa River. Peace River. Land. Rainy Lahc. Barley. Canada. Canadian Conveyance of Land, Cumbevlind Emigration, Floods. Fraser Fur Trade, 13, 14. Government Liard River, Mackenzie River. Minnesota, 'Norway House, Oregon, Pembina. Purtisla Prairie, Price of Red River Settlement, Saguenay River, United States, Saskatchewan River. Simpson Fort, Thompsons River f^ancouver'n Island. Weitern Coast. Wheat. William, Governor, Colvill led. nothing bat I of latitude Hon. W. H. ill 1 750, ib. hern branch of this line ic Hudson's 0()osed line, 'he proposed ritoiy north '449- 2633- iinething be o be British lot aware of Interest Iliver, and Right Rev. south be Americans, towards the m. E. EUke liny tortaun \, 6029— r for lielp to ment : ints, Sir G. itioii of any ur trade be settlement : »■ 5933 '■ jhould not ;ness of the 05- : ^Company, ncement of e wishes of s are avail- \ny portion settlement Canadian Zumheyi'ind Fruter lovernment izie River. Oregon. Price of nay River, ted Statet. ir. Colvill COL COO 485 Report, 1 857 — continued. Colvill Fort. Cultivable charncter of the land at Fort Colvill; less favourihle climate of the British territory north of the Fort, and east of the mountains, Sir G. i.r, &.c. to the efflsct ihat it is pntctically obsolete as regards any res' fiction upon settlement, .Sir G Simpsvu 1860-1870 Nineteen-twentieth* of ihe people >ettle without applying for a deed or title, 16. 1861. 1870-1874. Doubt as to there being siny impediments to t"ie purchase or transfer of land under the Company, Isliister 2513-2518 Peculiar aiid unavailable character 01 the land deeds isniied by the Company, M'Laughliii 4766. 4882-4887 For the hut year or two the Company Imve been more stringent in their regulutions about the sale of land an Red Kiver, Caldwell 5568. 5572. Copy of deed of hind granted 10 Joseph Monkinan, dated 12th March 1844, App. p. 37 > -373. Copy of agreement, dated 13th March 1844, between the Governor of Assiniboiiie and John Slater, for the lease of certain Imid to the latter lor a term of 1,000 years, App. p. 439-44 >• Cooper, James. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has been a resident and colonist in Vancouver's Island for the last six yjars, 3558--3561 Was a mcnber of Council there for five years, 3563 Is not now in any way connected with the Hudson's Bay Company, 3564 Had a firm of about 300 acres, which he bought from '.he Company, in the Metcho- sen district, 3567-3572. The climaie of the isian() is superior to that of Great Britain, 3572 The land is partially wood and partially open with prairie, and is capable of cultivation to a con- siderable extent, 3572. 3608, 3609. 3706-3719 ^The population has decreased within the last six years, 3573 If 'he country were directly under the British Government, Instead of under the Hudson's Bay Company, immigration anu colonisation would soon follow, 3574-3677- 3605- 3744-3747- 3799-38oi. Want of confidence of the people in the courts of justice, .3578. 3610. 3935 Exception taken especially to the appointment of Mr. Cameron an chief judge; he was not educated lor the law, and is not quulified for his office, 3578, 3579. 361 1-3632. 3664- 3670 Bar to an export trade from the island on account of the heavy differential dutieii, 3580-3588 Lxcellent and abundant supply of coal in the isliind ; obstacles to its export, 3583-3588 Extensive fisheries in and around the island, 3589, 3590 Exclusive right of the Company to the fisheries in Eraser's Iliver, 3590. 3740, 3741. There are from 8,000 to 10,000 natives, 3591 Probability of the Indians becoming troublesome or rebellious, though hitherto peace has been kept, 3592-3597. 3636. 3(i5>» Instbnces of Indians bavin-; been apprehended through the instrunientality of ilie Queen's ships of war, and punished for their offences, 3596. 3598. 3645-3658 Then; is no military force in the island, and only one constable; inexpediency thereof, 3597. 3634-3O44- 3658-3663- Very few pvirson.s in the island eligible as members of the Legislative Assembly ; n.iture of the quiilificiition, 3599-3604 On the mainland, opposiie Viuicouver's Island, there is a beautiful tract of country, calKd TliomjKon's River, which should be included with the island as a "(dony and lor purposes ot settlement, 3606-3608. 37.34 Salary of Mr. Cameron, 3622, 3623 liijudieious conduct of the Government, inasmuch as Indiiins who hav? committed offences are frequently not punished, and are evei bribed with blankets, &c.,. in order to prevent any breach ol the peace, 3633-3644. 3658-3660 0.24— SesB. 2. 3 p 3 Sum i I ;i i I I : .1 ■ 'I I ji III ,11 486 COOPER. iXiit i ' ■ { t ■ill i: !' f. !. 1!. I,: y If if. \ Report, 1857 — continued. Cooper, James. (Analysis of his Evidence) — cnntinued. Sum and siibstmce of the complaints of tiie colonists, [^662 Salary of the con- Btai)le at Red River, 3671. Statement as to the licenci' to sell spirits costing no/., in each 088^,3672-3(178. 3690, 3691 After the licenre is t;iken out thero is no material restriction save iis r('^8, 3689 With respect to the soil of the country, it is peculiarly well adapted to the production of corn and vegetables, 3696-3719 Nature of the timber on the island, and on the mainland north of the American territory, 3720-3733, Evidence, showing how far it can bo said that the Company offer impediments to colonisation. 3735-3747. 3799-3814 Queen Charlotie's Island is less suiinhle ihan Vancouver's Island for settlement. 3749-37,'>2 Further reference to the lan^e and exe< llent coal mines in Vancouver's Island ; the monopoly of the Company, and the heavy American duty, are a bar to their development, 3753-3761. Employment of Inilians on the coid mines and (arms, 3761-3763 Payment of the Indiiins in iiiido goods, they not oinoiidly understanding the v;due of money, .'4764-3767 There is but one I'roiestiint chigyman, the colonial chiipliiin, and no atti'iupts are made, save by Roman-catholic priests, to clirisiianise or educate ihe Indians, 3768-3793. 4001-4013 Tliere are some schools for Europeans, and two Protectant schoolmasters in the island, 3788, 3789. 3794. 4002-4004. The price of land i« 1 /. per acre, except at Victoria, where it is much higher, 3795- 3798 — —Respect in which ihe Company may be said to monopolise trade and to deter individuals irom competition, 3'', 3'<52- ere are four that i8, the J870. 4018, ^itness lield rs' produce, 7— Great I ; this duty '-394"- r lo Eraser's Hf for iheir mils, 3896- nd, witness 5 Staie- tiver, 3914, tian, 3906- ip.ired with '39"^^: 3931 the island, ties, 3932- ■vetit iinmi- altrs would settlements f th<; Com- cntioii with Regulalions rge tract of aken to the d tr.ider in lliam, 91. p., 11 from Mr. had (breed two Cooper, Mr. — continued. two men lo join an explorina: expeditioti, notwithstandinsj thai they were engaged to perform certHiii work for him (Mr. Cooper), Hon. C. W. W. Fitzwilliam, ilf.P. 2390. Ample opporluniiies of Mr, Cooper for acquiring information upon the state of the island and upon its administration, Blanshard 5275, 5276. Copper. Wiih respect to ihe copp'^r miie s on Lake Superior, iliey do not pay for working, Rae (!o2, 603. 618-623 There is a lar<;e copper district on eiicii side of the Copper- mine River, Sir J. Richardson 3110-3113 There are very valuable copper mines on the Copper-mine River, Roche 4465, 4466 Reference to a specimen of pure copper brought to this country from the Copper-mine River, Tennant 5754, 67o5. Coppermine Indians. In:iccnracy of a statement as to the Coppermine Indians having decrcisc'l in consequence of indulgence in ipirituous liquors obtaineil from the Company, Sir (J. Simpson 1049-105-2. Corbett, The Rev. (IriffUh Owen. (Aii;il\sis of his Hvidence.) — Was for about three years (l85'2-55) in charge of the Grand Rapids d'strict, the Jaruest setttlement on the Red Kivir, 2656-2G61 Acted as a iiiiiisionary ot the Colonial Cloirch ;ind School Society, and did not receive any payment fiom the Hudson's Buy Company, 2662-2665 Statement as to tlie Company having for several years prohibited the formation of a niissiouiirv station ami settlement at Poita!^e-la-Priiirie on the Assiniboine River, 2666- 2680 Pressure under which the Company have rec and Forests brtinch of the Crown Land department, App. p. 394-402 Statement by Mr. Dawson, in (oiitiMventiun ol the title under which the Company claim certain rights of »oii, juiisdiction and trade, <6. 394-399 Statement in regard to the eaily nnd piesent boundaries of Canudii, ib. 396-399 Statement in regard to the soil and climate of th'.- Hudson's Bay territory and its htness for settlement, il'- 399-402- Debateable Lands. There is a soit of debateaolc land betwesn the North American Indians and the Esquimaux, as well as between different tribes of t'le latter, Rae 688-693. Directors. Cordiality between the rouiieil of ftictors abroad and the directors at homej Right lion. E. Ellice o79o» 5796 Constitution of the Board; there is nn annua' meeting of stockhilders, and an annual thctioii of the governor and committee, t6. 5799, 3800. 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 Q Letter il: ;(■] i (I I :!i r i i)f !!■! ;- '■■'1 '' if 1 ' ; ' 1 g)' 1 (•■•' i ,1 490 DIR DR A Report, 1857 — continued. Directors — continued. loiter fioiu Mr. Shepherd, governor ol the Company, to the Right Hon. H. Labouchere, dated 18 July 1857, setting I'orth the views of the directorn nf the Company on some of llie more important points involved in the inquiry, App. p. 405, 406. DiitiUery, Red Rivrr. The Hudson's Uny Company erected h distillery ai Red River, but have never worked 11, Sir G. Simptoii 1745, 1746. Dog River. Capability of producing ^nt\n on the banks of the Dog Kiver, Sir J. UichaTilton 2(jo7. Doll, Mr. Circumstance of Mr. Doll, a stutioner and bookHeller at St. Haiil't, having removed thither from Red River in consequence of ihe inconveniences and diacouriige>- niPMtH met with ut the latter place, Corbett 280,13-2810. Douglas, James. Mode of appoinlmeni of Mr. Dou<;lns as witness's successor in the government of Vancouver's Island, Blatuhard 5203, 5203 Particulars as to a dispute between witness and Mr. Douglas about the register of a ship, ib. 54io-5230. Belief tliut Mr Douglas makes nn excellent governor of Vanootiver's Island, Right Hon. E. Ellice 6032. Draper, Hon, William Henry, c. B. (Analysis of his l^vidence.) — Is Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pieas of Upper Canada, 4038, 4039 Has been u continual resident in Canada smce 1820, during which period he han filled the highest legal offices in Upper Canada, 403^-4041 Has l)een instructed by the Government of Canada to uatch the investigations being made by the Cummittee, and generally to preHs upon the Goveriiiueiit of liiis country the rights and interests of Canada relative to the territories under the rule of the Hudson's Bay Company, 4042-4053. Has never been nearer the territories of the Company than the eastern portion of Lake Snpeiior, 4054 Enumerates three points in which tlie inquiry before the Comnidtee affects the interests of Canada, 4055 With regard t • the first point, namely, the claim of the Hudson's Bay Company to tlic legal possession of all lands drained by any streams, no matter how remote their vources may be, which flow into the Hudson's Bay Straits or Hudson's Bay, witness di'iputes the validity of such claim, and delivers in a paper {App. p. 378-380) in support of his view of the subject, 4056-40,58. Impoitaiice in the first instance of a clear definition of what the lethal boundaries of Canada and of the Hudson's Bay territories really are, 4059. 4io,'5, 4106 Proposition thai Canada shoidd have a fre^ f'ght to explore and survey the Company's teirieoriein|ieiisatecl for tlieir luiidn, 4081, 408'!. 4l6/}-4l67 Dianatrous waiH between the Indians and Aniericnu* adverted to, 4oH8- Importance, for neveral reaBonx, of the lliidxnn'g Bay Company monopolizing the I'ur tradt! liir Rome time nt 1(1(4, within the more northern limit proposed to be assignt'd to them, 4o84-4o8(>. 4189, 4190. 4306-4S09 Com|teiition in the fur tfade i« a aoiirce of agitation with many |i€ople in Canada, 4067, 40H8 Pru|io«iiton that the <^xclMive rights and powerH ot' tlit; Hudson's Buy Company and, ai the sHfloe time, of Gsnada be removed further uortli, and that the line of houndnry be that pru|>o«ed by the Company themselves in 1750; this line explained, 4089-4096. Two (lefiuitions by Act of the boundaries of Canada, 4097, 4098 Absence o> iiioon- venieme in the administration of juatioe through the want of a definite boundary, 4099- 4101 In proposing that the Rockv Mountains should limit the Canadian territories, witness makes the reservation of a right to extend to the Pacific any future railway over the mountains, 4102. 4104. 4173. 4175 The Canadian Uoveriuneut claim the country up to the Pacific, 4103. Evidence in support of a auggesiion made by wilneus in a letter to the Colonial Secre- tary on the 6tli instant, that tlie question of boundary between the province of Canada and the territory u( the Hudson's Buy Conip-my be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, 4107-4109. 4116-4124 Grounds fur the conclusion thut the Company have not in law an exclusive licence to iradc, 41 10-41 17. 4t^t') The ques- tion of monopoly of trnde, as well as of poasessiun of land, should be referred to the Judicial Committee, 4116. Witness has hern preparing evidence as to the title of Canada to the territory, but declines to lay the !>ame brfore (he Committee, 4120, 4121 He has express instruc- tions to retain coun>el to reprt'!«nt the province, and ha«, he conceives, a di'-cretiojui-y power to take the initiative oefore the Judicial Committee of Privy Guuncil, but looks rather to the Crown to procure the reference and the decision, 4122-4124. The non-settlement of the Hudson's Bay territories goes to prove tliat settlement ii^ not compatible with the interests of the Company, 4126, 4127 Belief as to the fitness of a great portion of the country for settlement, 41 28 Reference to a tract of land ue,ir the American frontier, which, though not included in Hupert's Land, is under the admini- stratiun of the Company, Canada exercising no jurisdiction therein, 4130-4133 ^The Mississippi River i:, the only western boundary given to Canada in documents emnnating from the Crow n, 4 1 33-4 1 35. Witness is not aware of any actual enc roach inentj by American citizens across the boundary, 4136— —Circumstance of a petition having been recently ()reseiited tocoimross for connecting the Lower Red River with Lake Superior, 4138, 4139 At present all the triide of Red River goes by Hudson's Bay or the United States, 4140 Faciliiies of communication between Canada and Ked River sufficient for the conveyance of troops, 4141-4145. Practical inconvenience has not hitheito occurred through the undefinr '. character of the Canadian boundaries, 4146 The affairs of the Hudson's Bay C '., ■ ny have of late iittracted growing attention in Canada, 4147, 4148 Reference to a slight collision between the Canadian government and some Indians relative to some mines in islands on Lake Superior; cause of the affair, 4165. 4215-4217 Natural and only course by which the trade of the Red River can puss through Canada, so ibly for the improvement of the roads; resolution of the settlers not to pay this duty, Corbett 2755-2770. 2773-2783. Prohibitions placed by the Company some years ago on imports to Red River from the Unit! (I Suites, M'Laughliu 4766. 4791 Return in 1848 from the American importers at Ked River to the government of ihe district, relative to the heavy duties on imports ; this pciitiim was never replied to, 'b. 4791-4795 Copy ol' a proclamation by the Governor "f Ued River Colo!iy, uated 7th Dectmiber 1844, directing measures for the prohibition of imports for setileis engaged in the fur trade; authenticity of this copy, ib. 4895-4898 A higher duty was levied on goods from America than from England, but a ledured duiy was taken on the former goods if the iniporteri were iioi suspected of trafficking in furs, 16. 5030-5046. Extract from minutes of meeting of the Governor and Council of Rupert's Land, lield at Red Kiver, 10 July 1845, as to the imposition of duties on goods imported by settlers trafficking in the fur trade, and the exemption from duty of goods imported by non- traders, App. p. 373. E. East India Company v. Sands. The decision of Lord Jeflery in this case maintains the right of the Crown to grant a license of exclusive trade. Right Hon. E. Elliee 5823. Edmonton. At Edmonton the pasturage is very good, and barley is very productive, Sir G, Simpson 982 Barley and oats are grown at Edmonton, but wheat has failed ; cattle thrive very well, A/He* 4693-4700. Education. How far provision is made for or encouragement given to the education of the Indians and half-breeds. Sir G. Simpion 1139-1133. 1321-1323. 1331 There are schools at Red River established by the missionary societies and assisted by the Company, to which the half-breeds go, ifi. 1683-1685. 1717-1723 With regard to the covenant in the form of leace to settlers, that the settler sliall contribute towards education and religions instruction, the same is not enforced, ib. 1709-1716 Further statement as to the Company encouraginpr the education and religious instruction of the Indians, though they have not given specific aid (or forming school rooms or purchasing books, ib. 1721- 1723. 1728, 1729. 1791,1792.2001-2017.2056 ^TheCompany do not actually require the missionaries and clergymen to keep schools, ti. 1730, 1731. Statement EDU ELL 493 Hrport, 1857— «o» ,5883-5886 The trade wa< then carried on in countricH that are now civilised regioiw, .'■,775 In 1805 witiiefH became connected with the North-west Company and the X. Y. Company, the two Canadian companies, 5776, 5777. Very injurious and disastrous competition during the earlier part of the century, between the Canadian companies and the Hudson's Bay Company, 5778, 5779. 6783, .5784 More active competition oh the part of the Hudnon's Bay Company, after Lord Selkirk joinel it in 1811 ; 5779. 5783 Grant by the company of a large tract of territory on the Red River to Loid Selkirk, in June l8n ; reference to the deed hereon, defining the territory, ,'')779-6783. In 1816 the Canadian (iovernment appointed Mr. Coltnian as Comniixiiioder to inqnir^ into the disorders in the conduct of the fur trade, and he reported in favour ol an iinii>n of the interests of the conipeting compinicH, 5783, 5784 In 1819 or i8-20 Lord Bathurst, then Secret.iry of State for the Colonies, consulted witness as to the possibility of an union of the companies, 5784 After a very dilBcult negotiation, witness suo cetded in uniting the interents of the various companion, and persuading them to agree to carry on trade under the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, ib. At witness's suggestion to Liu'd Bathurst, an Act was passed in 1821, granting for twenty years a license of exclusive trade to the Hudson's Bay Company, 5784-5788. €015 Especial care was taken in the Act not to overiide the existing privileges ol the company, 5784. 5786 On the union of the companies the Hudson's Bay Company became more a Canadian than an English company, 5784. 5881, 5882 In 1838, when the first license expired, a full inquiry was made on the part of the Crown, and a further license of exclusive trade for twenty years was granted, 6788, 5789. Immediate restoration of peace and order by the union of the companies, 5790. 5803- 5805 Constitution of the Hudson's Kay Company as regards the participation of the stockholders and principal servants in the profits, 5790-5793. 5802 Conduct of the aflfairs of the trade by a council of chief factors, which meets generally at Red River, 5793, 5794 Appointments to vacancies are rtconimended by ti.e council, and are made by the board of directors at home, 5793. 5797, 5798 Cordiality between the council abroad find the direciorn at home, 5795, 6796 Constitution of the board ; there is an annual meeting of stnckliolders, and an annual election of the governor and committee, 5799, 5800. The capital siock of the company now stands at half a million ; particulars hereon, 5802. 5899-5902 Aveiagi' profits for tlie last seventeen years ; how appropriated, 5802. 5895-5899 Since the union of the companies the profits have averaged about twelve per cent, on the capital, ^So,' 5895-5899 Great benefit of the union to the Indians, 5803. 5805 Demoralisu'^o and destruction of the Indians during compeiition in trade, 5804. 5806-5808 Sati.sfaclion to the Home Government as well as to the inhabitants by the administration of justice by the Company, 5805. In the United States the fur trade is nearly extinct, 5809 — --Great diminution in the supply of peltry in British North America, 5810-5812 More abundant and more valuable supply of skinit from the districts most remote and most northern, 5811-5818. 5941-5949. 6024 In the remote districts, and where the Indians are under control, the fur-bearing animals are on the increase, owing to the regulations of the Company, 5811-5816 Infoimation relative to the Russian Inr trade, 5819 Decrease in the trade in the southern portion of the territory, owing to the competition from the American frontier, 5820. 6026. Very slow progress of settlement and civilisation in the Company's territory ; doubt whether it has increased at all for many years, 5821 The Company are incorporated under a charter, 5822 Witness, when opposed to the Company, took the opinions of many eminent lawyers as to their legai rights, and lias, since his connexion with the Company, taken further eminent legal opinions, 5823 Conclusion that the proprietary rif;htsof the Company, as given by the charter, cannot be dispuied, 58^3,5824 Existence formerly of several proprietary colonies in the States; how terminated, 5824. ^922-5928. Right of self-government given by the charter, 5825 The obligation on the Com- 0.24— Sess. 2. .3 Q 3 P*°y i' ;! 1 'U til m .J '!' E L LI C E lU(M>rt, ttt57 — tuiHimud, EUiee, Right lion. Etlward, M.P. (Aimlyiiii uf hii Evitlencc) — eoMlimttd, pitiiy to wnd certain pri»uti«rH and cukcs to C'Muada liuM ii»t upply to tlie clinrtrrtfd turri- loiii'K, AKa6, sHi^. (1014. 6oi(), {k)fj Stttitfuctoiy tliiiu)(li rudu way in wliicli jumice w •tlniiiiiateretl ; uo act ol ^roM uijuiiticr or excrpiiuiiiil udiuium'riitton bun iitkeit place, ,'.8i|M. £yu9, ^tO'jo Great cant tukni in rui^urd (utile clutii and cliamctar of p< rtuni went Ironi thi'< vouiiiry tn aituatiun* in iliu inttriur, it^'ia-rfi'S^ Cunatnnt watch over the conduct ol' the cunipany's agentii, ^831. 6$)3'> Moral conduct and ^lod aonac are in- Ah reiiarilH iho boundaiien hciwcen the lludioii'H li.iy Teriitory and Crtnuda, (Ik! Act I4 Geo. 3, I'. 83, cirurly detinei the liniitH nl' tlu' liilt«>r, !'fi:\',\, ,)H;J4 (Tndui; iniporl- Hi've uitiiched in the qiienliun o( Imundury, 5H34— ^-I'roprieiy of the (JuDipuny Kiv*i>f( up to t'nnada any hind lequired for Kettlement ; willink^neMt of the Company to do to, 6034. 5^36- 5839. 6933 -Advanlape of the counliy, includinj; the Red River 8eule- nienl, hein^r, nt leaHt for aome lime to eome, governed by the Conifiuny rather than by Canada, 6*^36-5H4i. Great dlHicultivH iind expencc which would attend the goveriiincnt by Canada of ihe Red River Territory, r)838-,'',84,'j Iin>neuae oLiiuclet to a proper meanii ot communi- cation between Caniiilii or Lake Superior and Rod River, 5838. ^,908. 5914-592 1 The natural commuincution with the Red River m evidently through Amiricu, 5838, /)908. tio43, (1044 Belit'f that lernnt tor a Iniiulcr uf tlie Red River Colony to Ciiiiada mit;ht ra.'iily he arrun^eil, 5839 Expeiiiive and unNuccntuful chmacter oi the Red River SeUlenuiit, which was eutabli^htd by Lord Selkirk and not by (he Croipuiy, ^'Mi i^40- 6931 Great difliciiltieH uiid cxpeiigc in ihe wiiy of the forniiition of a Britii'h colony towards the American Iruntii'i ax 11 protection agninit Aiiiericaii encroach- luentH, 5842-5847. tio32-()f)4t). ('auH«it of the auecetx and extcnaion of MttlenieDta in the United StateK, .0845-5847. 5909-5914. 6o39-tio4i Unfavourable character of the cliinutt- at Red River, 5H47 Harrcn and marahv character of the aoij, except un tlie bauku of the river, 5847. (1037 Great defii lency of fuel at Red Kiver, 5847 Alio on the Saskatchewan, ib. Inferior clinncler of the soil muI climate at tho latter place,*. Ptirt of ihc territory west of the Kocky Mountain^) is very productive of good furs, 5849 Settlement and cultivation wan being largely carried nut by the CuinpHny in Ureijon, west of the Rocky Mountains, before the se tiement of the boiindaiieit with America, 5849. 5931, 5032- 69;H- OriKinof the Pugct Sound Conipimy in the increasing cultivution north of the Colum- bia, 5849 The Puget Sound Company is quite distinct from the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, ib. Claim now beinu; prosfcuted before Connre«8 by the Hudson's Buy Com- jjuny ))nd Puget Sound Company, for indemnity for the aurrcnder of posiiegHory riKhts in Oregon, noith of tiie Columbia, ib. Opinions of eminent Americans ns to the title of the companies to the possessory rights in question, ib. Circumstunceg under which, in 1849, Lord Orey, acting very wisely for the Crown, gr.inted Vanroiiver'R I>lanil to the Hudson's Bay Company, 5850, 5851 Where the iiioiiopoly of ihe Company is not u necesBity, witness has nothing to say in itg favour, 5850. 5Hfii)-,';8G4. 58(57. 5933 Tlie Company made u great mistake in accepting the er»nt of Vancouver's Island ; they have spent very lar<;e sums there, lor wiiich there has been no nium in any way, 5850,5851. 5H5(). 5875-5880. The Colonial Ollic.' iiupuaed most impolitic restrictions upon tht Company in regard to the piice of lutid to settlers in the island, 5851 In providing that whilst the Gim- pany should have 11 monopoly of the iitland a free legislature should be established, ihe Colonial Othce uc ed very erroneously ; particulars hereon, 5851-5855 Thcis7—cantiinmd. FJlict, Right Hon. Hiteard, M. P. (An»ly»i» <»f bin E*i(lenei>)— ronO'wwr/. Furthar ttatHnmnt hh to tlie bnnaKtu to th« liiilianH (liiougli tli«! monopoly r.f tlie Com* nmy, 5t)n;)-.'')905 WiinM^ rf|M>at« that wherever colonimttiun in practicahle or ()ei«ira- b(e, the ri'^hta of the ComiMiiiy ►hn>ilil not inurlnre, 5!»<'tt, ftftoy. 5(13;) \» nirnrda comiitiinication with R>'(i Itivrr, in<:Hiia for )fettiiii( ut tkr aa L*eU have i^xiated for yeurM, .^Jlrt-.ifjao Further ntHtcnicnl nn to th<> nHiialHClory adiiiiniH- tratioii l>y the Coinpniiy, iiutwithHtumlinj; that ihnie liitvf heeii coniphintit hy the Red River L-olonisiH, 5<>'i puny ciinnot niidertako to itoik ciipitui in coloniitiiii; inipracticalile loculiticii ; they Imve •pent Unue >.iim-i where KL'tileinent mbh desirnhle, CtiYi^-tjU'.H Enterprii»in(t, but un- aeitled (Tiiiriicter iind cniuluci of Dr. McLitii^ldin ; ulien in tliu Conipuny'n service he WHii Hn excellent officer, ;)93,^. (i<>;io, 6031. Destruction of the fnr trade in the north-wext territoriea, if competition were nuain allowed, 5937— —Competition mouM reduce the Iniliunt to a siule of wiint, iind uliiiost of starvation, it. Disappearance oi' the triidi- before ihe march of civilisation, 5938- 5944 It does not follow that the niuintenunce of the trade in Biitiiih North America abould be inconipniii)le with colonisation ; the trndc would unlv be driven further north, where the bent furs Jire (bund, .094 1 -5949. Funher relerence to the ditficulties of cunimiinication with Red River; remarks on the circniiiHtance ot the Canndmn (iciveriim(>nt Imvini; voted ,0,000/. for iin|iroving the route by Lake Winnippjj and ihe Luke of the Woodn, ,59/jo-.'')96o— — Fuitlier evidence relative to the capital Biork of the Company, and the au<;riientntion« therein from time to time; witness ciinnot ^o into details hereon before his connexion with the Company in iSli ; 59(11-5984 Kxplanntion relative to [\ sum of 84,1 1 1 /. ns ihe bHiniice eX|ieiided by the Company in the purcliiiAe and support ol the Red Kiver colony, 59^,0-5991. Remarks on the circuinslnnce of witiicB?4 having, many yearn .1^0, disputed the ri^ht of Lord Selkirk to llie Red River colony, whereas siiue his connexion with the Huii- Bon's Bay Company, and the puicbnse of the colony from Lord Selkirk, he Iibh main taiiied the title to the |iOHBea»ion of the colony, 5992-6000 In Canada the Fiiiiian title to the land Iihs never been extinguished, (iooi Doubt whether Lord Selkirk gave any conipeiiaHtiuii to the Indians for the Red River district, or whether his rights were under treiity, 6002, 6003. Propriety of the Compiiny declining to suiiply a ^tatemellt of ihe amount of stock standing in the names of the varifluii Hh;irehoIaers; it is an unusual request on the paituf tliu Committee or one of its nienibirs, fjoo4-(ioo<) Beyond the limits of the cnartcr, Parliament can, if it please, refuse to re-grant the license, without at all aggrieving the Company, tjooy, (1008 Authority under which the Company hold courts of recoid at Red River, Col o-(io 13. Belief thiit wheiher the license be re-granted or not the Company will continue to monopolise the trade, Goi 8 In the time of the North-west Company competition there WHS a loss to nil parties, tioig. ^0,56 Further statement its Ui ilie great decline of the fnr trade in the United Stales; comparatively small amount of fiiri exported ihence to En^rland, 6020-6024— —The posts of the Hudson's Bay Company in trie northern parts uf Canada are very vnluable, 602,0,6020 Objection to making ])ublic the tariff prices given to the Indians, 6027, Iiii|>robabillty for very iniiny years to come of isny foreign settlement in the soiitliern portion of the Hudson's Bay luiritory, 6028, 6029 In the event of forcible eiicruach- menl the Company would naturally apply for help to the Government of this country, G028 Belief that Mr. I'onglas make'* an excellent governor of Vaniouver's Island, 6032 Sundry obstacles and considerable expense which would attend the foimaiion of an independent liritish colony at the Ked River, 6033-6046. Larger niilit iry force required at Red Hiier if directly under the Crown. 6034, 6035 ——Troops have on former occasions of excitement or of disturbances on the frontier been sent to Red River, 6034. 6050, 6051 Evplanation as to a military force at Red River having recently been applied for in consequence of disiurbances in Minnesota, and of the possibility of illegal conduct on the part of the lialf-breed» and Canadian traders, 6034. 6048-6055. As regards the ('a|>ital stock of the Company, not much of it is now held in Canada, 6047 Belief that among the Canadian people generally there is not any great agitation against the exclusive rights of the Company, 6054, 6055 — —The expectation by certain parlies of a participation ill the fnr trade is at the bottom of the a<;itation in Canada, 6055 No greiiter objeciioii exists now than in the time of the North-west Company to a competiiiun in the trade, but the competition then was grievous enough, 6056- 6058, r i'J ¥ 11 I .'ii I' ! 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 «J4 Reference Further ,i! v^ m J! |, !■;;■' i. 1 ; a' I . 496 ELL FIS Report, 1857 — continued. Ellice, Right Hon. Edward, M.P. (Analysis of his )Ls\<\enw)— continued. Reference to nn Act passed in 1690, conveying certain powers to the Hudson's Bay C<>tup»ny, Uui for seven years only ; explanation hereon, to the eileci that subsequent Acts in 1708, 1744, 1803, und 1818, have contained clauses saving the rights and privi- leges of the Company, 6059-6069 As regards the ndministration of justice in the Hudson's Day territory, the Crown has at present sufficient power to establish niHgis- irates wherever it pleases, G070, 6071. Emigration. Absence of Anieiican emigration from Minnesota to Red River; the nenrest American settlement is at Crow Wing River, about 400 miles from Red River, Sir G. SiVnpMM 838, 839. 891-907 Facilities afforded by the Company for the entrance of free labourers into the Red River Settlement, ib. 1 082-1 ogi. iSe« also Colonisation and Settlement. EsquimanH Harbour (Vancouver's Island). Excellence of Esquimault Harbour, Cooper 3987 ; Blanshard 5288. 5306-5312. Exclusive Rights. See Canada, 2. Colonisation and Settlement, 3. East India Company v. Sands. Fur Trade. Indians, 0. 7. License to Trade. Expenditure hy the Company. See Red River Settlement, \. Vancouver's Is'and, 16. Expiration of License. The license to trade, which was granted in 1 838, will expire in 1859, Sir G. Simpson 1348. Exports and Imports. The only article prohibited for export from the Company's territories is thiit of fur, Sir G. 6'tm;Mon 1227. 1238 The Company's imports into the territory are about 60,000/. a year, ib. 1518-1520 About 40,000 /. in imports is distributed jirnong the 55,000 Indians east of the Ilocky Mountains, ib. 1521-1524. 1547. Obstacles on tho part of the Company to nn export trade in tallow and hides between the Red River imd the United States, /s6w/«- 2407 Further evidence in regard to the obstacles thrown by the Company in the way of exportatica from Red River; furs, which are the main pr'-diict ot the country, are entirely prohibite. 6079 Statement showing that in former "ears the Company imported from Hudson's Bay a considerable quantity of whales' fins and oil, ib. 6079-6082. See also Ungava Bat). Vancouver's Island, IS. Fitzwi/liam, the Hon. Charles William IVentworth {Member of the Committee). of his Evidence.)— Passed two months in Vancouver's Island in 1853; 2247, Suitableness of the cliniate of the island for settlement by Englishmen, Character of the country ; the soil is generally ptoduciive, though m places rocky, and the fir timber is magnificent, 2249. 2256. 2379, 2380 Particulars reUtive 10 the coal mines at ^animo, about eighty miles to the north of Fori Victoria, on the east coa!«t, 2250-2252. 2300-2310. 2319-2322. 2340. 2374, 2375 Ciicumstatice of the inteiior of the country not having been explored or surveyed, 2253-2255. 2276-2282. 23(10, 2361. Exi:ellent harbours at Esquimault and other places. 2257, 2258. 2277. 2299. 2338, 2339- 2372, 2373 The fisheries along the coast are singularly productive, the fish bemg- traded by the Indians with the Hudson's Bay Compiiny, 2259, 2260. 2366-2369 Very primitive state of the Victoria settlement when witness was there in 1853 ; par- ticulars hereon as to the extent of land in cultivation, the number of settlers, &<.'., 2261- 2264. 2270-2273. 2295-2298. 2382-2389 Considerable settlement going on on the Americiiii mainland opposite the island, ^-^62-2264. 2363-2365. Particulars relative to the Indians on »><: coast of the island ; tiirir character, means of subsistence, 8cir., 2265-2269, 2283-2293. 2314-2318 Productive land in the Cowichan valley, 2268 Causes of the non-increase of settlers in the island ; doubt as to any encouragement being ofl'ereil by the Hudson's Bay Company, 2271-2273. 2323-2329. 2352-2359 Size of the island, 2294 Victoria is the 3- The white population principally came from England, and were, with one exception, servants of the Puget Sound Farming Company or the Hudson's Bay Company, 2323- 2326. 2352. 2382-2387 Practice in regard to the sale of land, 2329 Penalty in the event of persons being detected in trading with the Indians in iiquoi', 2333-2337 Cultivable character of the islands between Vancouver's Island and the main land, 2341- 2346 Manner in which the island is governed and justice administered, 2347-2351. The Puget Sound Company, which cultivates a considerable quantity of land, is com- posed of servants of the Hudson's Bay Company, 2352-2355 Settlers in the island would most probably come from the sea rather tiian the mainland, 2362 Mention of Mr. Cooper as the only independent settler and trader in the ishind when witness was there, 2369-2371. 2382. 2386,2387 Wheat, oats, barley, and potatoes were easily raised in the island, 2376-2381. Witness delivers in a letter ' received by him from Mr. Cooper in 1853, complaining that Mr. Douglas, the governor of the island, had forced two men to join an exploring expedition, notwithstanding that they were engaged to perform rertiiin urgent work lor him (Mr. Cooper), 2390. Floods. Occasional flooding of the land at Red River, and at various other parts of tli<> territory, Hit G. Simpson 804, 805. 875-878. 942-957. 1959-1977 The last great Hood was in 1851, ib. 957 Reason for no attempt having been made to improve the banks of the river, so as to prevent floods, 16. 1978-1980. Floods are of rare occurrence, Corbett 2734-2736 Witness has seen the whole country almost under water for many miles on each side of the Saskatchewan, Sir J. Richardson, 2901. 2912 Advantage if the occasional floods could be prevented by removing the obstructions and improving the outfalls, Caldwell 5624-5630. Food. Before the Red River settlement was founded, animal food and fish foimeil the main diet in the interior, and corn was imported through Hudson's Bay lor tne use of the Company's establishments on the coast, .Sir G. Simpson 963-9G8 ^Inability »{ tlie Company to support the Indians in the interior and in the northern districts in times of scarcity ; food of the country adverted to hereon, ili. 1849-1859 The food of the prairie Indians is principally butlalo, and of tiie thickwoud and mure northern Iiuil.iiis, fish and rabbits, j't. 1849. 1851-1854. 1858. 0,24— Stss. 2. 3 K ReleieiRc ill B i" ill 1 i , I .1 , lrt:=' I u \\i. \m \' i \\\ ii! H i) 498 FOO FRE 11 I'v, li'; i lirport, 1857 — continued. Food— continued. Reference to a letter from the Rev. Mr. Taylor to witness, dated September 1855, with reeard to the unuertaiiity of the arrival of necessary supplies for the setilers and Indians, Corbett 2747-2750 Fixed tariff of charges on some of, but not all, the articles of food supplied by the Couipany, ib. 2751-2734. 2771, 2772. At Fort Franklin and other places witness has necessarily lived for several months on fish, and frequently passed two or thiee days without any food at all, Sir J. Richardson 2946-2955 Facility in supporting the troops at Red River, Crqfton 3398-3401 Manner in which the several expeditions of witness in the Company's territories were supplied with food ; great assistance afforded hereon by the Hudson's Bay Company, Sir George Back 3457. 3492, 3493. 3527-3529 At James's Bay and other places animaU are more scarce than formerly, and livini; is someiimes very precarioas, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4326-4334. See aUo Buffaloes. Fisheries. Indians, 2. Pemmicaii. Foss V. PeUtj. Particulars relative to the case of Foss v. Felly, as tried in Assiniboia when witness was governor; interference of Mr. Adam Thorn therein; 'grounds for the con- clusion that substantial justice was not done, Caldwell 5442-0516 There were altoeether four defendants, and the damages were laid at 300/.; eventually the only defendants on the trial were Felly and his wile, and the damagei^ were laid at 200 /., ih. .5443 1 he injustice consisted in the fiict of Mr. Thorn having interfered in the case both as advocate aiidjndge, thouuli he hud been pievinusly consulted about it, i^. 5444- o455' 5460. .5496- The case was tried by jury ; how c(>ui|X)sed, ib. 5445, 6446. 5498, 549« The action was for defamatory conspiracy, ib. 5462-5468. 5473, 5474 Captain Foss as well as Mr. Pelly was in the pay of the Company, ib. o463-,')467. 5475- .'5483 Reason why witness did not act as /'oiid^/iir& judge in the case, notwithstanding Mr. Thorn's presence, ih. 5484-5496. 5500-5502. Eraser River. There is a considerable space of level and cultivable land to the eastward of Fort Langton, at the nmuth of Fraser River, Sir G. Simpson 558-564. 928-941 The mouth of the river is obstructed by a bar, ib. 865-867 Exclusive right of the Company to the fisheries in Fraser's Kiver, Cooper 3590. 3740,3741. 3880-3884 Fitness of part of Fraser's River district lor cultiviition, ib. 35^06-3913 ^The country about Fraeitlers to freight goods between Red River and York Factory, 8tc. ; docunientij dated July 1845, and purporting to be signed by Alexander Cliristie, factor of the Company, adverted to heieoii, ib. 2018, 2019. Difficulties of the Vancouver's Island colonists through want of freightage for ilieir experts. Cooper 3885-3895. No application has ever been made to witness by merchants at York Fort to' put cargo for them on board, Herd 4625-4628 Private merchant vessels never call at York for trading purposes, ib. 4647, 4648. Particulars relative to the proceedings consequent upon a demand for over-freight I'roin the Company by Messrs. M'Dermot and Sincuir of Red River; the governor decided that the case could not be tried in the colony ; witness, on the part of Messrs. M'Dermot and Sinclair, then endeavoured to have it settled before the Chamber of Commene in Canada, or the Board of Trade in London, but without effect, and eventually it was settled by the Company paying a portion of the amount demanded, M'Laughtin 4808-4823 Reference to an action brought by the Company against witness in consequence of some raiher indiscreet expressions used by him, arising out of the case of the over-freihe Company with the procuring of certain supplies at Red Kiver, subsequently to the demand for over-freight, and the trial at the Old Bailey, '*4S.53-49i3-49»9- Witness states that four or five years elapsed before the matter of the over-freight was settled ; but subsequently admits, on seeing a receipt in full from Mr. .Vl'Dermot, dated 1846, FRE FUR 499 Report, 1857 — continued. Freights — continued. 1846, that he may be inaccurate in regard to the date of settlement, M'Laughlin 4854- 4881. Reference to a copy ->( a licence to freighi goods from the Red River to York Factory, dated agih July 184/ . Laughlin 4888-4894. Difficulty a« >ei:: freight to Vuncouvt-r's Island, which prevented witness from obtaining supplier ire England, Blanthurd a\ 78, 51 79. See also Sinclair, Jcmcs. Fuel. Want of fuel in different parts of the Company's territories adverted to as an obstacle JO Bettlenunt, Sir O. Simp$on 971-979. 1438-1430 Qreai deficiency of fuel at Red Kiver, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5847 Also on ilie Saskiitchewan, ib. FvR Trade: 1. Conduct of the Trade before the Union of the Canadian and Hudion's Bay Companies ; disastrous Competition trhich prevailed. 2. Union of the Companies, and Benejits consequent thereon. 3. Licence to Trade as granted in 1838, and previouily. 4. Question as to the Legality of an exclusive Licence. 5. System of Traffic with the Indians ; Prices given for Furs. 6. Council of Factors. 1. Trading Posts. 8. Steps taken to prevent Competition or private Trading. 0. Extent of private Trading carried on. 10. More valuable and extensive Trade in the more remote Districts. 11. Fur-bearing Animals ; whether on the Decrease or Licrease. 12. United States. 13. Evideme in favour of Competition in the Trade. 14. Evidtnce in favour of the Continuance of Monopoly. la. Probable Monopoly, even if the Trade be thrown open. lU. Vancouver's Island. 1. Conduct if the Trade before the Union of the Canadian and Hudson's Bay Companies ; disastrous Competition which prevailed : Witness went to Canada in 1 803, and was then first connected wiih the North American fur trade, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5775 At that period all the leading commercial community of Caiiadii was engaiii'd in the trade, ib. .5775- 0883-5886 The trade was then carried on in countries tliut urt now civilized regions, ib. ol'o- Very injurious and disastious competition, during the earlier part of the century, between the Canadian companies and the Hudson's Bay Company, Right Hon. E, Ellice 677^» 6779- bl^'it 67*^4 More aciive compeiition on the part of tlie Hudson's Bay Company, after Lord Selkirk joined it in i8ii, ib. 6779-5783 (n i8l6 the Canadian Government appointed Mr. Coitman as Commissioner to inquire into the disorders in the conduct of the fur trade, and he reported in favour of an union of the interests of the competing companies, ib. 5783, 5784 Some sixteen or eighteen people were killed or wounded in an atlray between the rival comp.mies, ib. 5783. 2. Union of the (.Companies, and Benejits consequent thereon : In 1819 or i8ao Lord Bathurst, then Secretary of Stale for the Colcjnies, consulted witness as to the possibility of an union of the companies, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5784 After a very difficult negotiation, witness succeeded in uniting the interests of the various companies, .md persuading tl'.dni to agree to carry on trade under the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, ib. On the union of the companies, the Hudson's Bay Company became more a Canadian than an English company, ib. 5784. 5881, 5882 Immediate restoration of peace and order by the union of the companies, ib. 5790. 5803- 5805 Great benefit of the union of the competing; companies to the natives, ib. 5803- 5808. 3. Licence lo Trade as granted in 1838, and previously : Reference to Parliamentary Papers in which the licence to trade, which the Company received from Government in \%-ii and 1838, may be found, Maynard 4443, 4444. Crown grant 10 the Company, dated 30 May 1838, of the exclusive trade with the Indians in certain parts of Nurih America fur a further ttrm of twenty-one years, and upon tlie surrender of u former grant, App.p. 414-416. Copies or extracts of the correspondence which took place at the last renewal of the charter between the Government and the Company, together with the dates of all former charters or grants to the Company, App. p. 417-434. Copy of the grant made to the Company in 1821, App.p. 425-427. Information supplied by the governor of the Company in a letter to the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade, dated 7 Febiuary 1838, relative to tiie claim for a renewal of the grant, App. p. 427-430. 0.34 — Sess. 2. 3 R 2 4. Question i I' i •500 FUR TRADE. Report, 1857 — continued. "ii FVR r«ilZ)£— continued. 4. Queition as to the Legality of an exclusive Licence .- Grounds for the conclusion that the Company have not in law an exclusive licence to trade, Hon. W. H. Draper 4110-4117. 4125 Tlie question of monopoly of trade, as well as of possession of land, should be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, ib, 4116. Witness denies that he was trarfickinf; illegally when, as a British subject in a British colony, he traded in furs, M'Laughlin 5060-50C2. Statement by Mr. MacDonell before the Select Committee in Canada, relative to the rights of the Company under their charter, and in contravention of the title claimed, Ajip. p. 386 Similar siatement by Mr. Dawson before the same committee, ib. 394- 399- 6. System of Traffic with the Indians; Prices given for Furs : Fairness of the system pursued t)y the Company in tlicir traffic with the Indians, Bae 37,^ Higher payment given for the less valuable fuis, such as the musk-rat, in order to prevent the fint-r and more valuable animals being killed ofi', t6. 376. 502. 559, 5G0 Supply of the goods to the Indians on credit, ib. 408 Particulars us to the prices put upon goods, witli reference to their prime cost, which are bartered with the Indians in exclian>:e for beaver skins ; esamination heieon to the effect that by the Company's tariH'a fair value is placed upon ilie furs, ib. 408-413. 47I-511. 520-560. The prices of the several kinds of beaver skins are well known to the Indians, who are very shrewd in their dealings, Rae 485-499. 527. 568-572 ModificHtion of the tariflf, some years ago, in favour of the Indians, ib. 499, 500. 520-543 Tlie Indians probably p:iy, indirccily, more thnn ooo per cent, in beaver skins over and .ibove the first viilue of the floods, ill. 503-5: 1 Procfss at the Company's forts in regard to the exchange of lurs for goods, ih. 539, 540 Particulars as to ihe number or skin^ of difl'erent kinds which Would be required for a gun, ib. 540-548 Much higher price given for furs in the Mackenzie River than in other places, ib. 549. 553. 557. Payment for the furs by barter, according to a tarifi', varied from time to time, Sir (i. Simpson 1008^— Further statement as to the tariff for barter with the Indians; variations in it arc settled by the council, ib. 1264-1268 In Canada and the American frontier furs are mainly paid' for in money, and in the interior it is a barter trade, ib. 1536. 1617-1620 Tliere are different tariffs for different places, ib. 1536. i6i6-i6iy Inferior skins, such as musk-rat skins, are constantly taken in return for a gun, ib. 1528- '.5:3.5- I.iadequate value now received by the Indians for skins, Hon. W. H. Draper 4\gn M'Laughlin 5058, 5059. 5066-5068 Much larger price given for skins by the American companies than by the Hudson's Bay Company; documents hereon relanve to a contract made by witness for supplying the American Fur Company, M'Laughlin 5059. 5062-5065 Witness has given more than 100 per cent, more for furs than the Com- pany gave, 16. 5059 Dissatisfaction of both Indians and half-breeds, in consequence of the inucli lower prices paid by the Hudson's Bay Company than the American com- panies, ib. 5069-5071. Witness knows nothing of the Company's fur tariff, but believes that on account of the competitiim at Pembina fair prices were given, Ca/';iture of the sieps taken by the Company, in order to prevent traffic in furs between the Indians and the settlers, M'Laughlin 4735 et sej.—— Persecution on the part of the Company, in several of the prohibitory measures adopted by them previously to 1849, witli reference to the fur trade, ib. 4739-4750. 4762-4766 Stoppage of the Com- pany's sup|)lies to the Indians, in the event of their trafficking with the settlers, 16. 4740. 4749-4754 Instances of Indians having been imprisoned, or their furs impounded, for trafficking wmi J FUR TRADE. 50 1 V Report, 1 8,57 — continued. ve licence to of trade, as of the Privy ill a British lative to the itie claimed, tee, ib. 394- the Indians, music-rat, in 6.502.559, rs its to the red with the that hy ihe 20-560. ns, who are 3f the tariff, [IIS probably irst Vidue of X change of Peient kinds for furs in time. Sir e Indians; e American \e,ib. 1536. i-l6ly >, 16. 1 528- aper4\gn ins by the relative to ihlin 5059. 1 the Com- jnseqdence ricau cum- uccount of t Hon. E. generally , CaldDcll B5-367. from the [ndian for i between irt of the to 1849, he Com- ih. 4740. inded, for rafficking FvR 3'iJill and Mr. UnwHon before the Select Committee m Cunadu, in strong opposition to the monopoly evercineil by the Company, App. p. ;)8(i- 890. 394-398. Petition from the Board of Trade of the city of Toronto to the Legislative Council, presented aoth April 1857, uiih reference 10 the exclusive rigliu exercised by the Hudson's Bay Company, App. p. 435. 14. Evidence in favour of the Continuance nf Monopott/ : It id essential that the tiade should hen monopoly, Rae 378-384. 414-416 An opposition fur tiade would result in the introduction of spirits aiion^ the Indians, to their great injury, and the exhaustion of the trade, ib. 379-384. 414 Evil anticipated (icmi an opposition fur tiade on the Company's terrtiories, Sir G. Simpson 164,5-11)48 ^The export of furs has lRr(>;t-lv increased, ani liie trade is now the largest and nn^t valuable ill the world, ih. 1706-1708 The trade may be kept closcl until settieiucnt advances nearer, Sir J. Bichardson ^\si Coinpeiition on the frontier between the American und the Hudson's Bay Coiii|)anieH, ib. 3135. Impoitance, for several reasons, ot the Hudson's Bay Company siill mnnopolisin<> the fur trade for some time at least, within the northern limit proposed to be reserved to them, Hon, W, H. Draper 4084-4086. 4189, 4190. 4206-4209 ^Twofold evil consequent upon competition in the trade, ib. 4086 Pending the question of settlement by Canudu, the Compnny sliou:d, as at present, monopolise the trade, ib. 4206-4209. Where the monopoly of the Company is not a necessity witnesi has nothing to say in its favour, Hight Hon. E. Ellice ,5850. 5860-5864. 5867. 5906, 5907. 5933 Destruction of the fur trade in the north-west territories if competition were allowed, ib. 6937 Disappearance of the trade before the march of civilisation, ib. 5938-5944 In the time of the North-west Company competition there was a loss to all parties, ib. 6019. 6056 No greater objection exists now than in the time of tlie North-west Company to a competition in the trade, but the competition then was grievous enough, ib. 605*1-6058. Extract, dated loth August 1 748, from the report of the Committee appointed to inquire into ilie state and condition of the couniries adjoining to Hudson's Bay, and of the trade carried on there, App, p. 359-361 Consideration iu this re|>ort oi the petition of certain parties engaged in tryitiir to discover the north-west passage, who take exception to tlie charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, as void in its original creation, or forfeited by the Company's conduct under it, and request the grant of a charter for themselves to apply to ihe more northern district, ib. Recommendations in the reporr that a charter be not granted to the petitioners, us likely to interfere injuriously with the fur trade by cieatini; competition, ib. 360, 361. As re;;ards those extensive regions in which for the present, at least, there can be no pio»pei;t of peimanent settlement, the Committee are of opinion that the Company should continue to enjoy the privilege of exclusive triide. Hep. p. iv Piobabiliiy of the indiscriminate destruction of the more valuable fur-beuring animals, if competition in trade be p.lloued, ib. 15. Probable Monopoly even if the Trade be thrown open: Competitions in the iur trade would not probably be veiy successful at first, Hon. W. H. Draper 4187 If the trade were thrown open, competing companies would in time most probably unite, ib. 4190 Belief that whether the licence be re-granted or not, the Company will continue to monopolise the trade, Right Hon. £. Ellice 60 1 8. 16. Vancouver's Island : Few furs procured from Vancouver's Islxnd, Cooper 3816. 3973, 3974 The Hudson's Bay Company might have the right of exclusive trade compatibly with a governnieiit of the island by the Crown, Right lion. E. Ellice 5863-5865. See also American Fur Company. Ammunition. Canada, 2. 4. Colonisation and Settlement, 3. Compensntlm. Dutiet on Imports. Indium, 7. Licence to Trade. North Wat Company. Red River Sfttlement, p. Russia. Spirituou$ Liquors. Trading Supplies. Geological Formation. A large proportion of the region ttisl of the Rocky Mountains is primitive in geological loriualion, and is almost entirely denuded of soil, Lefroy 167. iuiis tlirowii verc tlirown iinmittM in [pp. p. ;)8«- ive Council, sed bv the ■416 All Ann, to theii' ipated (iimi )4H ^The (i'«t valuable lit advances le American lonopolisiu" be reserved Vofold evil question of e trade, ib. Iiing to say • 5933 allowed, ib. 3-5944 parties, ib. North-west >us enough, d to inquire of the trade petiiion of i.e exception or forfeited lemselves to at a charter fur trade by e can be no p:iny should IJiliiy of the tion in trade ul at first, companies licence be ht Hon. E. 974 -The tibly with a Colonisation Indians, 7. ittlement, p. Mountains is soil, Lefroy 167. GEO GOV 503 Report, 1 857 — continued. Geological formation — continued. 167. aua-2o8. 213. 343-245 — —Geological formation of Lower Canada adverted to, Lefroy 1207, 208 The limestone in the prairie territory containi a large quantity of inaunetia, and in not fertile, Sir J. Richardmin 2903 Abundance of limestone in the tract of territory by the Athlabasca Lake, King 5658, 5659. Witness has written a geological memoir upon the country, wliich has been published by the Geological Society, and also a geographical memoir, IibitUr 6074, 6075. Geological Survey. There has been no geological survey of the territory ; advantage o* - the Red River Settlement are published, but it is not consideied necessaiy to pubhsh old ordinances. Sir G. Simpson 1292-1298 In tlie government of Red River, there is not necessarily any reference to Norway House, ib. 1355-1357 The Assiniboia district ibrnis a circuit of fifty miles from the forks of the Red and Assiniboine Kivers, but criminals are sent thither from distant parts of the territory, ib. 1362. 1384-1387 Witnesii's appointment is by the Governor and Com- mittee at home, and is revokable at any time, iu. 1376-1381 Witness has no head- quarters, ib. 1382, 1383 The governor of Assiniboia is resident, 16. 1383. Circumstance of there having formerly been two governors in ihe territory. Governor Williams and Governor Simpson, Sir J, Richardson 3029-3032 Way in which the Legislative Council at Red River was composed and elected when witness was there, Caldwell 54 1 5-5422. Passages in the charter or grant by Charles the Second, relative to the jurisdiction of the Company, and the administration of justice, App. p. 413, 414. •J. Remarks in Approval or Disapproval : Witness considers that it would be a very great calamity if the control of the Company were altogether to cease, Ross lo Constant peace within the territory through tlie operations of the Company, ib. Constant war between the natives of the American territory on the one side and the Indian tribes on the other, ib. 10. 140, 141. There has been constant peace in the territory between the Whites and the Indians since witness has been governor, whereas on the American frontier a continual war has been going on. Sir G. Simpson 1012-1017 The Company have gone on in perfect harmony with the Canadians and the Canadian Government, ib, 680. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 R4 Opinion 1! .1 I \ !) i ^1 1 I Hi i 0y' '.■■■' '- i' 1 i - ^ m '% 504 GOV HAL Report, 1857— C()ii(i/ii(«(/. GoVERyaiENT BV THE Co.WPiiM'— Continued. a. Jtemarht in Approval or DUappruvol — continued. Opinion that the system of niannt^ement adopted by the Company it unfavourable to the development of the resources of the country, and to the progress of the civilisation of the inhabitants, Jtbisttr 2406, 2407 A» regards the mure peaceful conduct of the Indians in the Compiiny's lerritories than of those in the United Stales, the same is in no way atiributnble to the swuy or influence of the Company, ib. 2418-2427. Power of the Company still to preserve their authority in the country, provided the fur trade ii not thrown open, HirJ. Richardion 3128-3130 Witness considers the povern- ment of the Red River colony to be a patriiirchal government, Croflon 31 80 Approval, on the whole, of the government by the Company, ib. 3332-3335. T)istinclion between the rule of ihe Compiitiy as in London and in the colony, M'Laughlin 4789. 5001 Proclamations form the only meiins whereby the settlers know the rejiulations of the Company, ib. 4966-4968. Statement by the governor of the Company as 10 (he inexpediency of I'urihcr legislative measures for the government and administration of the territory, and as to their objection to undertake a divided administration, Apji. p. 406. Statement by the governor of the Company a* to the success of llieir administration hitherto; npprobation has been expressed lieieon by every succeeding Secretary uf Statu lor the Colonies for the last thirty-seven yenn, App. p. 406. Ste also Admini*tration ofJuitice. Canada. Red River Setlltment, f'an- couter's Iiland, Grand Rapids Diitrict. Statement as to Sir G. Simpson having endeavoured to intiinicinte Archdeacon Cochrane and others from building tlie church at the Grand Rapids District, Corbttt 2704-2709. Grand Trunk Railway of Canada. Witness i» at tiie head of the Trunk Railway at Canada, JfoM 8-^^ An extension of the Trunk Ri.ilway to the Red River should pans through the valley to the north of Lake Huron and Lake Superior, where the land is very suitable for a settlement, ib. 40-46. 142. 145, 146 The railway is now nearly carried to Lake Huron, ib. 43 How far it may be carried by the Acts already obtained, ib. 45- 153 1^ 'B about 1,200 miles from the point to which the present railway conces- sion extends, to the Red River, ib. 153. GraHt, Mr. Mention of Mr. Grant of Red River as a very good magistrate, Caldwell 6674- Great Fish River. Very fine grazing country all the way along the Great Fish River to the Polar Sen, King 5664, 5665. Griran, Donald, Sen. Letter from Mr. Gunn to the President of the Executive Council of Canada, dated Red River, 6 March, containing sundry particulars and statistics relative to the Red River Settlement, App. p. 381-385. H. Half-breeds. Di£Bciilty in poveming half-breeds, as at Red River, Ross 129-131 Reluctance of the English half-breeds to settle, Rae 655-659— —Doubt as to there being any difficulty in governing the English half-breeds, ib. 660, 661 The half-bfeed popu- lation is in some places largely increasing, ib. 662 There are about 4,000 half-breeds at Red River, Hir G. Simpson 1681, 1682 The inert ased instruction of the half-breeds has not created any increased de>ire on their part for a free trade in furs, ib, 1686-1G94. Dissatisfaction among some of the half-castes at Red River on account of the monopoly of the fur trade. Sir J. Richardson 2942. 3128 Discontented state of the hull-breeds at Red River, because they were not allowed to distil spirits from their own corn, or to traffic in fur:", Crofton 3232-3246. Progressive social and intellectual development ol the half-cnstes at Red River, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4383. 4421-4429 Dependence to be placed in the half-castts as settlers, ib. 4384. 4416. 4425. Explanation as to a claim made by the half-breeds upon the Hudson's Bay Company in consequence of their having been prohibited by the Americans from hunting bufi'alo south of the 49th parallel, M'Laughlin 4903-4907 Neither physically nor intellectually are the half-breeds at Red River inferior to the Whites, ib. 4992-4996 High position of the American half-breeds at St. Peter's, ib. 4997-4999. Large proportion of half-breeds in the Red River Settlement, Caldicell^^^S Troublc- Home conduct of the hiilf-brceds when wiiness arrived at Red River some years ago ; thev require u stringent mode of government, ib. 5364. 5372— — Means of livelihood of the avourable to jviligittioii of iduc-t of the lunie is in no rided the fur I the poverii- — Approval, the colony, the settlers :r legislaiive eir objection ministration ;ttry of Statu nt. 'an- o intimidate ids District, Railway at shiiuld pass land is very iarly carried btained, ib. way conces- le, Caldwell ish River to Council of lies relative !9-l3i— — there being jjeed popu- iSa Tile n their part i monopoly hull-breeds corn, or to liver, Right ilf-castts as f Company ing bufi'alu iteTlectually gli position — Troiiblc- years ago ; velihood of' the HAL IND 505 Report, 1857 — continued. Hal/'hicli — continued. the . jreeds, Caldwell 5365-53G8— — Good social poiition of some of the half-breed* «6-f><.-,L'. 6674- •S'«e alio Education. lied River Settlement, 8. lleadineley. The original terms in regard to land at Headingley were, that each settler should iiuy 2 /. for each lot of la'id, whereni the terms have nince hccn raised tola/, and 15 I., Corhett 2O84, 2685. See also Missionaries and Missionary Settlements. Health, The country about the Red River, &c., is very healthy, Lefroy 313 The irdiips at lied River in 1846-48 continued in excellent healih, Croftu'n 3402-3405. Herd, Captain Duviil. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has for the last eighteen or nineteen years commanded ti ship of the Hudson's Bay Company, suilinj; between this country and Fort York ; was previously an officer in one of their ships for threo years, 456fJ- 4157"^ During the lust twenty-two years witness has seen only one whale m Hudson's i3ay, 4571 There arc white porpoises in ihe Buy, and these are commonly callpd whales, 4571. 4G38-4()4i Ev»n if ihere were whales in the Bay, fishing could not be carried on on account of the ice, 4572-4578. Paitiinlars as to the diificuliy of navigating the Bay by reason of the ice ; save for gi.v weeks or two months in ihe year the Buy is not navii;able, 4572-4578. 4592. 4603-4606'. 4645-4649 Witness has seen very f'ew seals, and does not believe there aie any fisheries of any value, 4579-4584 Doubt as to there being any advantngc in a steamer over a sailing vessel for the voyage to and from Tort York, 4585-4595. 4642-4646. The voyage is farther and more difficult from London 10 Fort York ihaii to Montreal, 4597, 4598 'Wiiness's ship, which is 524 tons burden, takes out a general cargo for the use of the colony, and brings back oil and >kin8; he has no cognisance of the value of the cariroes, 4599-4602. 4607-4612. 4619-4623. 4629-4631 All ihe goods, which sometimes include presents for private individuals, arc consigned to the Company, 4612- 4618 DiiBculty in mnking up the return cargo when the vessel is not full, by the addiiioii of tallow from Red River ; short supply there, 4623, 4G24. No application has ever been made to witness by merchants at York Fort to put cargo for them on board, 4625-4628 Probable quantity of oil brought from the Bay to this country, 4629-4635 Private merchant vessels never call at York for tmding purposes, 4647, 4648 Bleak appearance of the country about York, 4649, 4650. Hudson's Bay. Obstacles to carrying on a traffic through Hudson's Bay, Sir G. Simpson 969, 970 Particulars as to the dithculty of navigating the Buy by reason of tlu; ice ; save for six weeks or two months in the year ihe Bay is not navigable. Herd 4572-4578. 4592. 4603-4606. 4645-4649. I. Immigration. See Colonisation and Settlement. Emigration. Imports. See Duties on Imports. Exports and Imports. Freights. Indian Corri. Indian corn may be cultivated between the latitudes of 49° and 51°, and ripens very well at the Red Kiver, Isbister io7^~^577- Indiass: 1. Population: whether Increasing or Decreasing. 2. Physical Condition ; Instances of Destitutmi, Starvation, and Catinihalism. 3. EJJect of' Colonisation and Civilisatiun. 4. Treatment of the Indians by the Company and their Servants. 6. Settlement of Indians ; Practice of the Company hereon. 6. Qiieition as to the Preservation of Peace if the Trade he open to Canada. 7. Effect of Competition in Trade upon the Indians. 8. Canada. I. Population; whether Increasing or Decreasing : Paitlculars as to the amount of Indian population, Sir G, Simj)Son 993-997 The Indian population of Rupert's Land is estimated at 42,840, ib. 993 In the Company's terriioiy, east of the Rocky Monntains, the Indian |)o|)ulation is estimated at 12,730, ib. 995 West of the Rocky Mountains, the popuhition is calculated at 80,000, ib. The total Indian population (including that of Vancouver's Island) is estimated at 139,000, ib. 996, 997— —Increase of the Indians in the thick-wood country, and decrease of the Indians in the plains, ib. 999-1005. Mode of ascertaining the number of Indians in different districts. Sir G. Simpson 1062. 1066 The total of the Indians ea>t of the Rocky Mountains is 55,000, and west of the mountains 80,000, ib. 1472 Fuither opinion that the Indian population in the thick-wood country is increasing, ib. 1615 Over about 25,000 Indians east of the Rocky Mountains, that is the Plain tribes, the Company have no control, ib. 2001. 0.24 — Sess. '2. 3 S Increase ;il|i H. '•\ I: ; ilf •if ■'j IM i: I •I.' ■u , 1 m 5o6 INDIANS. -ill'-^' ■ .r *i T/ Report, 1857— «onlimte2;}. 462,';-4,'j3'< According to Bnnrrurt the Cherukeet, the Choktiiw*. th; Cii'cs, and the Winiic|inuii'*, .-ire increuHin^ ui iiinnhcr, ihoU!{h in cnntuct witli th Aniciicnnv, ib.^r^i^ Iniprtstion tint Sir U, Sinipnon'H citiniate of the niiiniirr of the Indinn population w too hiw, liijfht Ht». Dr. Aiiilerson 4'2()i,4a92 I'lie Indi;in« ore uicrcniiinir whore Nettled and decrni»inj; u|) thi- country, but on the whole, deL*rra*ing, »■''• 4347. 434*^- Orent difficulty in obtNinin;; relinble inr'ariou«ne«ii of their mean'' of Hul)Ki»tence, Lefruy ^tf^. 333 L^ige earnings of the Indium by cmi>loynient ut Nomu of the furts in euuimcr. Hue 408. Cirent mortality amon)^ the IrKlians abnut forty yeaift aiio from smallpox and meaile«. Sir a. iSi»ip(»R 9(48 betttT |ioxiii>in of the Indiant uh rt^Hnls means of suhsistence, on the west than on the ea«t of the ICucky Mountains, ib. 1319, 1330 Although liigher pncfs are •'iven on the ftontier than in thr. interior for !>kin>>, witness considers that thi' Indian iii better off' in the iiit^^rior, ib. I537-I,')4t'- Exaniinaiion as to tlie extent to which tho Indians have, in different parts of the interior, been reduced to starvation or cannibalism. Sir G. Simpton 1548 et itq. £xagly to Indians at Moose Factory during witness's residence there some years ago, ib. 562. 673-C82. The INDIANS. 3^7 Raport, 1857 — comliHMtd. The India \«— continued. 4. Treatment of th» ImiianM hy the Company and their S*rtatit$ — coiiliiiucd. Til)- Indianii nre never required lo pay lor the lands they occupy, Sir G, Siminon 101)4. loy7 Siippoi't by tho Companv of one nf liii- Indian chiedi, Ui. iof)5 Ab»eni tliu IndiuHH, but nevtrtiieleiH contiibule tliereiu, ib. 'iO^Ci, 'ioiyj. (innt kiiidiiFM of the (,'oinpany and their servaiitit to tlir Indiana when in di^trem) ; inalancen ot thin, Sir Genrge Hnch •,^^^■ 349^. 3513-3516. 3649-3,5,'j6 Good feeling ul the Indiiina tovtardn tlie Comp.iiiy, ih. 3/JI4— — Frtquent imitancet of prc<>i nt« of clothing »)r lood to ihi; Indiana, th, 3549-3666 T'^ Compmiy liavc done much lor the prutei'tion uf the [ii(lian«, liij(ht Ken. iJr. AiuUrton 4375 Necessarily kind ireiitiucnt of liie liidiuns by the Conipnny, King 5691. He^ulaiion of the Coinpimy, with u view to a kind and induigcni trcntnienl of the Indi>iiiii>, App. p, 3G8. A. Settlement of Indiam ; Practice of tht Company hereon : Relerence tu Htteinpts mude 10 collect and settle the Indians in villoges nenr Norway II('iiiie and the Ba!>qiiia River, Lefroy 346-350 The settlements of the Indiuns w above Crchir Lake, on the Saskntc-heivnn, when witness was liict in the country, mid the liidiniH were to a certain extent agriculiurisis, ib, 30-23-3027 All settled Indians partly cling to huniiiig, ib, 3028. Particulars .'is to thr Indian settleincnit ut Red Itiver an/i( JV9— continued. 7. K/fw"' "/ Cumpetiliun in Trndt upon the Indiatu — continued. Iniliant unilcT a »yiitein of ci)ni|)Vliti(>n in truilc, Hinht lion. K, hUtir* ^804. /iKofl-riHoH. aO'M HciiefitH to tho Iniliuiiit throu^li the inonojiuly i>l thii Conipiieiy, ib. ^!(o;)-/)((0,'', I'liiiil cti'ecti Hui'<> (() remilt lo tlie liiilnui |i(i|iiilati(>n Ironi u tyotnn of open competition ill tliu lur trade, unil the incrcutcd introuurtioii of ipirit* conacquent tlicreon, Hep, p. iv. 0. Canada ; In tlio ('nnadian tniritory the Iiidiunit are coiiipuratively comrortnblu and pr()*|>rroii«, ■^/'■".V U3I)-H3'' UefeiciiCL' to it uliglit collinioii liet\v he given, 240.S, 240(). 2025-2(532. Considerations as to the expediency or otl.trwise of throwini; open the fur trade and allowing Canada to participate in it ; vvitiU'>s (lumes the force ot several ^bjectioint to the trade bein Ray lerrituries, east of the Rocky Mouniains; suggestions hereon, 243(1 e< w^. 2525 e/ «c^. A custom K, use or small garrison at Red River would ktep the wliole country under control, 2441 -..{4,V Approval of gradual annexation to Canada 1,'ordiiigly IIS any portic" ..r f.|v 1 .y was fit for settlement, 244(1 Vancouver's Island and the main land ■■ ■ . <>, iho )'. v.Ky Mountains should form a separate colony and uovernmeiit, 2447, 244S. 2ovnj Measures 10 be apprehendid on the part of the United .St.ites unless the territory north of the frontier is stilled and (:onve\ed to the Canadian Government, 2449. 2033-2638 Unlef^' the fur trade '•« lliro»n open there will nut be sutiicient inducement to settlers or emigranis "ffio. Under v.r._ ':ireumst,snce the fur trade niu*t in course of time be open to competition, 2450-2. ',52 — .'(ttnuni rst.o there being already a considerable private trade in lurs between l!r )( .' River uiid the United States, noiwilhsianding the endeavours of the Conipun_\ to ni'?'.:(,j.;i-.l.ir> the trade. 2451-2458 Reference to a petition from the Red River seitleis to 'iit C'olonial Otb':e pr, ruled by witness some years ago ; belief as 10 the accuracy of thj sl.f.teiiients urged at the time in support of the petition, 2459-24(17. Statement lo the effect that the Company in no way encourage the establishment of schools, save by a contribution of loo /. u year to a tchool at Red River, 2468-2484 Authority I S HI S T E R. 509 Ktport, 1857 — contiHutd, Jibiiler, Alexander. (Analytit ut' liit Evidence) — continutd, Autlinriiy for th« Htiitninent that, prnctically, thii Coiiipniiy do not promota rptiiiionii in- ■triu'iion, iinil tliiit thrir tlrxiittioiiK to nii«fiioiiiirii'4 iirc ^ivmi wiili tliii vinw iIkU tlic latter may Nliut tlinir rycx to tim obcti'uctiont olFered by tliu C'tiiipany to the letllfiiU'iit of ItxIraiiM urouiul the iniHuinimriR', 'i.\^ "^W^- ^fi.Vi ^/i^i- ICxpliiiiation ill rvgnrdto the tenure "fa i'uriii lielon|<;iiii; to witiicHK nt Ruil Itivi'r, whinh fuiiiuily lioloiined to hiii fiither uh a r<'iirc' of nirKreuiitiii); '1 ■ territory to (Jiiiiada with a view to the fur tiiide taking the roiile of liuke VN'innipe^ uiid Luke Superior, ralliri t^Kiii the uniiatunil route of Hiidiion'ii Hay, •i-,i^-iri^\). afiac), 2(130 Of ihi; three route* to H-d Itiver, ilint is, by York Fiictory, St. I'l'terV, or l/.ike Siiperioj, the latter i» by far the JiorJcst, iiiid iit very prncticiihic, •i.i?((-'J,''>;j;j Advuiitiine in ii;iuie};iitinj{ tlu' Ited Uivcr ilisiiiif, &o., to Ciinada, riithcr tiiuii uf foriniii|{ it iniu a aepaiatu i^overnineitt and colony, 2534- Di SaKkatciiewan, 2562-2572. 'jft47-264f) tmliun ( ni'ii may be eiiltivuted lietweeii the latitiideM of 4!)" and 51°, .itid ripjn;, vtry well at tint lied Kiver, •■i.J7'J-2,-)7,j I'robiibl: uiiielioiatiuii of the ciinntL- at lied llivor ill coiitie(|Ui.'iit'(! of the culliv.ition, 'i^rn- * There lire no viilinible fisheneH in Mackenzie River, 2,-)78, 2,'")70 There is a v;iluablo while fisheiv near the nioiiih of tlio nver, 2580. ■J.'^H'i llehef an to the acei'^Miiility duriiit; till- t-uiniiitr ol the wliiile (iiihei'y oH the inouih of the Mui kenzu'. 'j.^Hi. ^^84- 2,r,()l ^Tlie iMaeki'lizie is a very fine river, imd peifeetly uaviirablf, af^ /i-j,')])-— ^— The Slave River, which coiuiectt the Slave Lake wilii Athabanca Luke, in iiiterruuteetller8, 2G20-2ti24 Increased value of jiroperty at Red 1 vcr if the 8etileinent were annexed to Canada, 2G2o-2G«7 Outlet for produce, and c hm cjiieiit iiuniiiiratiiai, if there were a free and good cominuiiication to and from the h d River, 2627-2631 ». R( ference to a treaty between the United States Government and the Indi. u-; and half-breeds at Ueil River; object thereof, 2633-2638 I'luciicability of agi ulture wherever the limeatono secondary formation occurs, as between the great lakes ;uid the Rocky Mountains, 2639. 26,54, 2655 Remarks on the ciicumsiance of the ibsoil being peruianeiitly frozen in the more northern parts of the territory; if the thaw ficientiy deep, the frozen subsoil by no ineaiis pievents agriculture or vegetation, 2649 VViih regard to the coal on the Saskatchewan, Sec, it is a tertiary coal, very tolerable (jiiaiity, 26J2-2654. [Second Exaininaiion.] — Witness has travelled through the Hudson's Bay teri >ory from the frontiers of the United States to the Arctic Ocean, and from Russian Aiii' ica to Hudson's Hay, 6073 He has written a (geological memoir upon the country, \\ .eh has been publislied by the Geological Society, and also a geographical memoir, 61174, 6075. With reuan 10 fisiieries in the territory witness further states that there are very va li- able fisheries olt the mouth of Mackenzie's River and in otiiei places ; authoiitv tor s stutfinents ii. i.'on, 6o76-t)o87 Abuiidance of animals in the teriilory from \vliii.'li 1 import ir.ide in iiides iind tallow, as from Rusbia, could be derived, 6088 Varii, > vegetable pmducis of ilie country which inisiht be udviintageously imported into ti. s country, 6088-6090 Abundant supply ol' minerals of dill'trciit kinds, some of them in a very accessible stale, 6090, 6091. There are three passes over the Rocky Mountiiins : one through the Peace Uiver, which Ho»s right (hruugh ilie mountains, one from the iiortiicrn branch of the S^isksitch- ewan, and one from tiie southern branch, which may be crossed in wheel carriages, 6092- 6094. Wiiness li»v» before the Committee {App, p. 437-439) a petition signed by some hun- dred '■♦ the .iihabitaiits of Red River, ami presented to the Legislative Assembly of C'.inuilii , it has been forwarded to witness by Mr. Macbeth, u member of the Assembly, 6094-6098. ■ suf- ')40- idof i I 24— Sess. 2. 3B3 I'! 510 J U R KER Report, 1857— confiimerf. J. JmitdUtion. Witnc^B does not recollect the existrnce of any agreement hy the Company to send criminals to be tried in Citnadu, Sir G. Simpson 1630-1632 On one occasion three men were sent to Cwnada for trial for murder, 16. 1633, 1634 Criminal as well IIS civil jurisdiction exercised by Mr. Thorn at Uid River; case of an Indian hanged by his decree, McLaughlin 5019-5029. Witness, as Governor of Assiiiiboia, considered that he had not jurisdicii Canada, the authority of the Company should entirely ceaHt, Rep. p. iv. See also Administration of Justice. K. i > ' |i ! I if I Kena^han, WiUiam. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Is a general merchant at Chicago, 2126,2127 There is now steam-bout communication from Clmago to Superior, and other cities at ihe extreme end of the lake, 2128, 2129. 2142-2144 Considers it expedient to iiLolish the exclusive piiviltues of the Hudson's Bay Company in regard to lund and tiade in the Red Uiver Settlement, &i-., 2131-2134. 2145 Circumstance of 500 waggons ol (>oods having gone from the Red Kiver Settlement to Si. Paul's or St. Anthony's last reason, leturiiiiig with goods of American or B.iiish miuiufiicture, 2134. 2156, 2157.2170. Complaint in regard to the duties in Ameiiea on the British goods taken back to Red River; such duiii^s wouM have been avoided by a direct roiiie to the settlement through Canadn, 2135 et seij. ComiuunicHtion iit present with the extreme enii of Lake Superior, 2136. 2137. 2142-2144 Goods might be conveyed bctwien Fort William and Ked River for abom 10/. a ton, 2138-2141 Superior City is a new place, but will this year have a pnpuliiiioii of about 10,000; 2144 Circumstance of its being c'oiiteii. plated bv some Amerieans to make a practicable navigatiiMi lietwecn the lovver Red River and Lake Siiperiur, vi& Lake Winnipeg, 2147, 2148. ' [Second Examination.]— Witness has been ■■ettled nt Chicago (or some time, •2171- 2173 Further rcfirence to the navigation of Lake Superior; thtre is communicntion Iroiii Chicauo to three ports, 2174-2171) Superior City was founded a year and a half auo, •2\Ho (Joininiiiiicntions are being made by railway fioiii (yliica.io to several points, 21H1 Conteiniilated river or canal communication between Lakes Winnipej; and Superior fuitlur adveited 10, 2182-21H7. 2222, 2223 Chicago has a rapidly inrreaMiig pnpulaiiun ot alumt 1 10,000 » 2189-2191. Statement as to some persons attempting; to trade at Vuncouvtr's Island havin.; been prevented from doing so by ilie Hudson's Bay Company, 2194-2208 Fine timber in Vancouver's Island (or which there is an excellent market at San Franeiiico, 2ioH- 2210 Available supply of coal in the island, 2211-2214. Faciliiies lur in.iiiiig operations and settlement on the American side of Lake Superior, there being no such (acilities in ilie British territory, 2217-2221. 2924-2227 If proper facilitii* were given by the Hudson's Bay Company, the Red River and other districts would be settled Irom the American territoiy, 2227-2231. 2237-2246 Cir- cumstance of its having been rumoured that the Company were anxious to stop the Red River traders fioin taking their goods to St. Paul's, 2235, 2236 Rapid ami immense increase of the population in Minnesota, 2237. King, King, KIN LEF 511 Report, 1 857-"Conf tnuec/. Xing, Richard, M.D, (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Travelled through the Hudson's Bay territory from 1833 to 1836 as surgeon and naturalist to the expedition in search of Sir John Ross, 5633-5^136 Hiis not been in tho country since that period, 5637 Route taken by the expedition ; it siaricd from Mnntre^l, and reached the sen at the estuary of the Great Fisli River, and returned by the English River to York Fact>ry, 5638-5640. Information relative to an enormous tract of country, bounded on the north by th^ Athabasca Lake, and on the south by Cumberland House, which as regards both soil and climate is peculinrly adapted for cultivation, 5641 et trq. Better opportuniiies of witness than of Sir Georgi- Back for observing the charaiter of the country, 51150-5652 Abundance of limestone in the tract of territory referred to, 5658, 5659 Magnificent trees growing in the district, 5660-5662. Very fine grazing country ail the way iilong the Great Fish Rivet to the Polar Sea, 5664, 5665 Witness did not travel through the Saskatchewan or Red River districts, but believes they are much less cultivable than the more northern tract South of the Athabasca Lake, 5666-5672. As regards the Indian'', the Chippewus were almost a settled people, and were inde- pendent of the I'ur trade, 5677 The Crees and the raoie southern tribes coming into contact with the Hudson's Bay Company are decreasing in number, 5677, 5678. 5683- 5687 The Chipewyans and the more northern tribes are increasing, 5677. 5683 About the Athabasca Fort the beavers, whiih formerly were to be found in great numbers, had disappeared when witness was there, 5678-5682. 5689, 5690. Dependent state of the Indians on the score of ammunition supplies, ,5685-5689 Necessarily kind treatment of the Indians by the Company, 5691 The Chipewynn races have always steadily refused to lake spirits, 5692-5694 All the southern tribes are Hirongly addicted to spirits, 5692. Belief as to whales, seals, and p 352 Miserable condition, jihysically, of the Indians in many parts throuiih the precariousness of their means of subsistence, 329. 332 In the Canadian territory the Indians are coin|)aratively coinlortable and proisperous, 333-330 Some Cliipewy.in Indians, in the fur north, do not come into communication with the Euro- peans, 340. Absence LEF M'DE 5«3 Uejturt, 1857 — continued. LiJ'roy, Lieutknant-colunel John Henry, r. a. (Analy^iis of his Evidence) — continued. Al>»eiice of setilrinent on eiilit-r bank nl' tlie ii>ei' betwe n Rimy Lnke Hnd the Lake of Wuiids; (hit) river furins |iari ut' the boundary bi't»eon ihe Unitu>i Slate;) nn I Briiish terriiuries, 34'2-345 Reterem-e to iitteiiipis nirnle to coilei;t and xettle the Indians in viiliiues near Norway House und tiie lianquia River, 34 Testimoiii 1 1 the kind and con«idc-riite behaviour nl' the Coinpaiiy'ii trailers towaida the ludiani, 35*3-360 Detective msiiiagement by th'' Coin|iaiiy in not alwavs plat-.ini^ adequate fjiifiplius in the handn nl iheii traders, 306-358 Doaieittic catiie and horses aie tii he found at some of (lie Giimitaiiy'x torts, 31)1, 302 — The buti'ulues are in better con<>iiion in winter than in summer, 363, 364. Leml Opinion, Letter from Mr. Merivale to the Attorney-general and Solicitor-general, dated g June 1857, enclosing < ertam iiapers, and requesting iheir opinion with r-iference to a legal decision nf certain questions in dispute between Canada and the Hndson'ii 13ay Company, App, p. 402, 40.J. Letter in re|>ly, dated July i8.',7, stating that the validity of the Cumpnny's charter and of the sevcrul claims of territori li rii;ht, of government, of exclusive trade, and tax>iiion, are not fit subjects for legid decision, but that the question of boundary might, under certain uund.tioiis, be referred to the Judicial Committee of Privy Council, App. p. 403, 404. Reference by the Committee to the opinion of the law otfieers of the Crown, Rep. p. iii. >Se« also Canada, 8. Fur Trade, 4. Territorial Rights. Legislation. Probability of the necessity of ati Act of Parliament in order to carry into effect the transfer of ceilain districts to Canada, Rep. p. iv, Leitli, the late Mr. Mr. Leith was originally sent by witness from Aberdeen to be a clerk in the service of the Company, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5829. See iilsii Religious Instruction. Liard River. On the River Li.ird large crops may be raised, Ishister 2648, 2649 Extent ot cultivation at Furt Liard and Fort Simpson, Sir J. Richardson 3122-3124. Licence to Trade. At witness's su>;ge8tion to Lord Bathurst, an Act was passed in 1821, gran ling lor twenty years a licence of exclusive trade t) the Hudson's Bay Company, Right Hon. E. Ellice 6784-5788. 6015 Especial care was taken in the Act not to override ihe existing piivileges ot the Company, ib, 5784-5786 In 1838, wlitn the first licence expired, a lull inquiry was made on the part of the Crown, and a further licence of exclusive irade for twenty-one years was granted, ih. 5788, 5789 The fear of competition from American citizens was one of witness's chief reasons for recommend- ini; the Act of 1821 giving mi exclusive licence to the Cnrapany, ib, 5866 Beyond the limits of the charter. Parliament can, if it please, refuse to re-grant ihe licence with- out at all aggrieving the Company, ih, 6007, 6008 There has been a re-grant of the licence, but not of the charter, it), 6016. Copy of the Crown grant to ilie Company, dated 30th May 1838, of the exclusive trade with the Indians in certain part') of North Americ.i for u further term of twenty-one years, and upon the surrender of a lornicr grant, App. p. 414-416. Copies or extracts of the correspondence which took place at the last renewal of the charter between the Ooverniiient and the Company, together with the dates of all former charters or grants to (he Company, App, p, 41 7-434. Copy of the grant made tn the Company in 1821, App,p, 425-427. Information supplied by the governor of the Company, in a letter to the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade, dated 7th February 1838, relative to the claim for a renewal of the grant, App, p. 427-430. Reference by the Committee to the near approach of the expiration of licence, that is, in 1859, Rep, p. iii Bight exercised by licence over the Indian territory, as distinct from Rupert's Land, ib. See also Colonisation and Settlement, 3. 7. East India Company v. Sands. Fur Trmde. It % (1-!! ! ^ i n iii 1 ill' I; ' \ 1 II' ill ; !l M. Absence M'Dermot, Mr. Reference to a statement by Mr. M'Dermot, one of the chief merchants at Red River, in deprecation of the non-l'orn.ation of a settlement or colony from Lake Superior across the Rocky Mountains, Corbett 2714, With regard to an extract from a letter from Mr. M'Dermot, witness's uncle, to the secretary of the Hudson's Bay Company, in which witness is spoken of as '' a very itnprudvnt young man," &c., the same may be attributed to the fact that Mr. M'Dermot h completely under the influence of the Company, McLaughlin 4908-4912. 0.24—8688.2. ' 3T MDonell, 5>4 M'D O M'L A Ri-poit, 1857 — continued. ;? i \:m ;■'.. .K-r M'Donell, Alau. Sintement by Mr. M'Donell, rs furnished to the select committee siitins in Ciiii'ida, relative to ihe righiH of the liuilHim's B.iy Coniuaiiy, the character of tlit- soil and cliniBie of the territory, iind its filnt-BS for »eH\emenl, App. p. ;)86-3go. Machemie River. Great iiupcdimentH ofieiHl by the ice to ships getting round to the mouth of tlie Maclienzie. Rae 430-43;^ Unrley and potatoes may be raised without risk on the Mackenzie River, libister '26(53, 2564. 2647, '^648 ^The Mackenzie is a very fine river, iind |)erfei'tiy navigable, ih. 2592-2597. Reference to portion of Admiral Unchy'K last address to the CJeogiaphical Society, alludiiiL', on the autliorilv of tlic Sccri'iary of the United Statrs Navy, to the fisheries ofT the mouth ol Mackenzii'i* Hiver, as beiiifi of greiit vahie, Lbiiler 6077-6079. 6083-6087 From the Arctic Ocean to the (Jreat Sliive Lake the river is perfectly navigable, to. 6090— —Very valuable mineral roources of the Mackenzie River district, ii. See also Fisheries, Iron. Tar. M'Laughlin, John. (Analysis ot'his Evidence) — Left the Hudson's Bay Territory in 1849 * bad been ut Red Rivei for five years carrying 011 business os n general trader, in conjunc- tion with his uncle, 4710-4726 Was never in the service of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, but has tranescted business for them, 4712. 4717, 4718. 491.3-4919 Is not prc|au'd to say that he never tradid in spirits, 4727-4731. Reierence to a letter written l)y witness i'l 1850, to the settlers at Red River, encouraiiing them In uphold their lijihts of tiade independently of interference by the Hudson's Bay t'ompmiy, 4732-4734 Nniure of (he ste|)s taken hy the Canipniiyin order to prevent traffic in furs between the Indians and the settlers, 4735 et seq. Per- secution on the jiart nf ilie Company in seveiid of the prohiliitory measures adopted by thfin previously to 1849 ; 4739-47JO. 4762-4766. Stoppage of the Cotnpiiny's supplie.s to the Iiidiiins in the event of their trafftckina; with the settlers, 4740. 4749-4754 Pieveniion by the Couipiiny of traffic lielween the Indians tlieiiiselvo, 4756 Instance of the Company liavintr cndeiivoured through a missionary to induce the Indians not to wear furs, 4*y56-476l—— General chiiracter of the persecution on the p:irt of the Company in 1844 and 1845 ; 4762-4766. Prohiliitions jilaced by the Company Konie vears ago on imports to Red River from V-'.t United Slates, 476(1. 4791 Discourimeinent by the Company of an export trade in tallow, hides, and tongue^, 4766 Pcciiiiar iind unavailable character of the land deeds issued liy the Company, 4766. 4882-48H7 As regards «he prohibition of tlie fur trade, witness refers to seveiul ducuments in corrnboiaiioii of his evidence on the 8ubj>;ct, 4766 et seq. Statement relative to a proclamation by the Governor of A8>iniboia, Mr. Alexander Christie, in Decemlier 1844, requiting thai letters be soiit I'peii to the post-office; olficial documents hereon, 4768-4783 l)iiip my, 4796-4808 Instance of Mr. Thorn, the recoj-der of the court at Red liiver, having been summoned, and having denied the competency ol the court to try hiip, 4808. 4986, 4987. Particulars relative 10 tlie proceediiiiis consequent upr.n a demand for over-lreight from the Company by Messrs. M'Deriuot & Sinclair, of Red River; the uovernor decided that the ca'e could not he iried in the colony, witness, on the part of Messrs, M'Dermoi & Sinclair, th< 11 eiuUavoured to have it settled before the Chamber of Com- merce in Canada, or the Hoard of Trade in London, but without effect, and eventually it was settled by the Conipany paying a portion of the ainoiini demanded, 4808-4823. Relcrt nee 10 an action brought by the Coinpaiiv auainst witness in conseipience of some rather indiscreet expressions used liyliiin arising out of the case of the over-freight; II was tried ai tlie Old Hiihy, aed distni^'^ed by the judge, 4823-4845 Witness sub- sequently took some ste 1-. against the Company lor false imprisonment, but was pievetited by lii< father from go''ig on with the matter, 4846-4859 Cirouuistanee of witness having l;een intrusted by ilie Conipany with the provision of certain supplies at Red River, subsequently to the demand for over-freight and the trial at the Old Bailey, 48.)3- 49 13-49 > 9- Witness states that four or fixe years elapsed before the matter of the over-freight was settled; but subsequently adniiis, on seeing a receipt in full Irom M'Dermot, dated 1846, tiiat he may be inaccurate in regard to the date of settlement, 4854-4881. Reference nitlec gittins ;i' of tilt' BOil tilt! mouth lout i'i»k on a very Bne ical Society, 1 fisheries off . 6083-G087 avigable, ib. iry in 1849; I ill conjunc- 8 Bay Com- 9 Is not Red River, race by the Ci>nip(iiiy in teq. Per- I adopted by Ifickinv with lietween the 1 tliroiigh a ch.iracter of I River from port tnide in eland deeds he fur trade, ubjt.'ct, 4766 . Alexiinder iKce ; otKcial , dated Fort , 478(3-4791 pon for some indon and in Red River to petition was lowii certain qiiestiiiiis of iiorc or less oj-Her of the leiicy ot the over-lreight he noviinor t of Messrs. ber of Com- eventually it -4823. iseqiience of over-freight; tVitness sub- it, but was uuiBtance of 1 supplies at Old Builey, r-freight was dated 1846, Ueference M'LAUGHLIN. 515 Report, 1857 — continued. JU'Laiig/ilin, John. (Analysis of bit Evidence)— ro>iA'nur(/. Reference 10 a copy of a licence to freight goods from Red River 10 York Factory, daied 29lh July 1845; 4888-4894 C'opy of a procl.imation by the Governor of Red Rivir co'ony, diated 7th December 1H44, direetin;; measures for (lie piohibition of im- ports fur setlleis engaged in the fur trade ; authenticity of this copy, 4895-4898 Copy of a law passed by the Red River Council on the igtii July 1845, relative to accused persons tampering with the evidence of their relatives, &c. ; belief that this law has never Deeii acted upon, 4899-4901 Extract from » proclamation by Mr. Christie with reference to further measures for suppressing illicit trade in furs, 4902. Explanation as to a claim inado by the half-breeds upon the Hudson's Bay Company in consequence of their having been prohibited by the Americans from hunting buffalo sonih ot the 49th parallel, 4903-4907 Willi regard to an extmct Iroin a letter fiom Mr. M'Derniot, witness's uncle, to the secretary of ihe Huilh(m's Bay Comp.my, in which witness is spoken of as "a very imprudent young man," Sec, (he same may be attributed to the (act that Mr. M'Dermot is completely under the inlluenee of the Com- pany, 4908-491 «. I'lobability of the Company making use of spirits as a nicatis of barter with the Indians; they used to do so in witness's time, 4920-4927 Belief that though an opposition trade between two companies leads to a traffic inspirits, a general competition in trnde would prevent the use of spirits as a means of baiter, 4927-4930. 4941. 4948. 5090 Anticipated individual trade in furs il the trade were thrown open, 4g3i-4933- Proposition tha( a line be drawn from Norway House along by the southern brmch of the Saskatchewan to the R' cky Mountains, )ind that the territory south of this line be opened for trade and colonisation, 4933-4936. 4961-4964 Tne Hudson's Bay Com- pany should still exercise jori^^diciioii in the teriitory north of the proposed line, but should not have an exclusive right to the fur trade, 4937-4948. Conduct of the American fur trade without the introduction of spirits us a means of barter, at least witness never saw nor heard of anv, 4941. 5077-5079 It is only liy competition thai the Indians can receive faft play, 4947 Fitness of the valley of the Suskuiehewaii for cultivation, 4949,4950. 49(10-4965 Belief as to the practicability of a considerable improvement in the route from Lake Superior to Red River, 4952- 4959. 5008. Proclamations form the only means wherehy the seitlers know the regulations of the Compiiny, 4966-4968 Peculiar and objectionable nature of the paper curiency in use at Red River up to 1849; 4969-4973 Circumstance of the Company hnving at one lime threatened to withdraw the paper currency, 4970-4972 With regard to Mr. Thorn, he whs extiemely unpopular at Red River, and it was said that he was very partial in the administration of the law, 4974-4991. Neither physically nor intellectually are the biilf-lireeds at Red River inferior to the whites, 4992-4996- High position of the American lialf-brecds at St. Peter's, 4997- 4999 Probable amount of the exports from the Hudson's Bay territory, 5000— — Fui (her Btateinent as to the jiracticul discouragement by the Company in tlie colony of exports of tallow, hides, and tongues ; more libeial conduct hereon of the Company in London, 5001-5007. American settlement at the Otter-tail Lake adverted to, 5008. 5012 Lower price charged for land by the American Government than by the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, 5009-501 1— If dee grunts of land were miide, tlie territory would soon be set- tled iri'm Sauite St. Mary to Red River, 5013 Witness is not aware of any instance of letters having been opened by tlie authorities at Red River, 5015-5018 Criminal as well ai. civil jurisdictiim exercised by Mr. Thorn; case of un Indian hanged by his decree, 5019-5029. A higher duty was levied on goods from America than from England, but a reduced duty was taken on the former goods if the importers were not suspected of trafficking in furs, 5030-5046 Much larger imports from £n;>land than from America, 5047-5053 Witness is not aware of any instance of seizure of ^oods in consequence of the con- signee liuving trafficked in furs ; goods thus consigned have not been carritd by the Ciinipany, 5054, 5055 Copy of the American licence to trade; prohibition therein upon traffic in spirits, 5057. Inadequate payment now given by the Company to the Indians for skins, 5058, 5059. 5066-5068 Much larger prices given for skins by the American companies th.in by the Hudson's Bay Company; document hereon relative to a contract made by wit- ness for supplying the American For Company, 5059. 5062-5065 Witness denies that lie WHS tratticking ilh gaily when, as a British subject in a British colony, he traded in furs, 5060-5062. DissiitisfactioD of both Indians and half-breeds in consequence ol the much lower prices paid l>y the Hudson's Bay Company ihan ihe American companies, 5069-5071 The American Fur Company has no exclusive privileges, 5072 Any American can cngiige intrude in American territory under licence from the government commissioners, 5072-5076. 0.24 — Sets. a. 3 T a . Ab ii';i :' ,1 1 ■•■ ■'} ! Ih \h iilll < 1 i •: 1 .11 W-v : ;-i]' )■■ ■ i 5i("t M'LA MIL Ri'poil, 1857 — cnntmueil. M'Lau^hiin, John. (An lysis of hi» Eviilence)— fo«//ii««e iiu. rds tlu' waiiaro with the Indians in tlic lerriiorv of the United States, the ■nnie does net Hiise foni Hny traffic in ture, or ubuKe iliereoj', 5080-5084 The Indian tribes in the Hudson's Hhy territury arc much luoie peaceable than those in the United Stotcs' territory, and uii opeiiiiig ot tlie country uns from Jasper's Hou^e to Norway House, 4680 Viirying character of the country from Edmonton, down the Saskatchewan, to Norway House, 4681-4700 Fitness of the valleys near the Saskatchewan, and of some parts of the Saskatchewan itself, for settlement, 4691-4700. Mililari, Force. Any extensive settlement at the Red River, 8tc., would require the protec- tion of a miliiary ibrce, Sii J. Jf/'c/fun/ion 3082. 3133.3143 There is no military force in Viiiicnutei's Uland, and only one conslable; inexpediency thereof. Cooper ,3597. 3634- 3644. 3658-3()()3.^— Salary of (he constable, ib. 3671 Lareer military lorce required at Bed River if diiectly under the Ciown, Right Bon. E. Ellue 6034, 6035 Troops have on tbriner occasions ot e.\citenicnt or of disturbance on the frontier been sent to Bed V. . ■ States, the -The Indian I the United to vii)lencf, (jovernment M'Laiighlin ; Ellice River, liocM Liver, Sir G. d* Office in >mpuny, the JO. uce, Crofton ice in Van- ;a8e, Cooper y &>nipany, ices to trade found, 4443, j' c;t has ulsn hf. nature of ipert's Liind, ))rovi8ion of ■ae 673-677. ion 98,} River, &c., than once a liver's Island :ablished on cible seizure ihe Indians bout a fori- 3 that in soil, niation nf a o the Cali- 4660. , 4666, 4667 oitCoiville, iculars as to !r ; they are om Jasper's ite taken by ■ the country — Fitness of n itself, fur the protec- iilitary force 3597- 3^)34- )rcR required — Troops een sent to Red 501,^ MIL MIS 517 Report, 1857— cun(t//u«/. JUUitari/ Force — continued. Red Uiver, Right Hon. E. Ellice 6034. 6050, 6051 Difficulty in mnintnining a proper military force at Red Ri\er in tlie evtnt of a wur with ihe Unitfd States, ib. 6046. Explanntion as to a military force at Rfd Hiver liavinp^ recently been applird IVir in consequence of (liHturbiinces at Minnesota, and nf the possibility of illeunl conduct on the part of ihe hulf-breedit and Canadian traders, Right Hon, E. Ellice 6048-()055. Mineriils, Copper and iron exiMt along the eastern shore of the Lake Superior, Sir O. Simpson 917-919 Tlie north shore of Luke Sujierinr in Canada has been suiveyed by Mr. Logan, und lead and copper have been found, and worked for a lime; failure of the mining coinpanieii adveited t>( hereon, iS'iV J. Richardiou 3ogu-3io() The geoiogical foriii'itioii north of Lake Superior is proniisin;;, ib. 3103.3108,3109 Mineral character of the country north of Lake Superior, Crqjtoii 3294 — - Report in 1845 or 1846 by Sir William Logan on the minerals around Lake Superior, Sic, Hon. W. H. Draper i^2\S, 4219. Impression that the Company have not endeavoured to develop the mineral resources of the terriiiiiy, Rij^ht Rev. Dr. Anderson 4300 — Greaicr v.ilue e quan- tilicfi, but it IS very questionable whether they can be worked profitably, t&. 5747-5751 On the American tide of Lake Superior silver and copper exist more abundantly Ihiin on the British side, and the copper h^is been extensively worked, ti. 5748,5749. 5752, 5753 Similarity between the features of the mineral disiriciH in British N' rth America and in Siberia, «6. 5756-575*' Existence and working of mines of cryolite and lead in Greenland aStr G. Simp- sou 846-848 Fiiriiculais as to the religious or missionary establishments in the territoiy, and the payments made by thu Company to them severally, ib. 1 100-1102 Befervnce to a chiirge inudc by the Company lor the passa!>e and travelling expenses of two missionaries, ib. 1724-1728. Witness was, for about three years (1852-55), in charge of the Grand Rapids district, the largest settlement on the Ued River, CorAei^ 2651-2661 Acted iis a missionary of the Colonial Church and School Society, und did not receive any payment from the Hudson's Bay Company, ib. 2662-2665 Statement as to the Company havinj; for several years prohibited the formation of a missionary station and settlement at Portage- la-Prairie, on the A^siniboiiie River, tb- 2666-2680 Pressure under which the Com- pany have recently stopped their opposition to a missionary station at Porta};e-la-Prairie, ib. 2680, 2681 Measures, equivalent to a prohibition, taken by the Company with reference to the missionary slutioii at Headinjiley, on the Assiniboine River, ii. 2682- 2688 He^trlclions placed upon the proceedinjjs uf missionaries ai Foit Alexander, ib. 2692, 2693 Circumstance of aijenls of the Company having more than onct stated thill if mivsionaries and missionaiy settlements inciense, factors and fur-truding posts must decrease, ib. 2G94-2703. Facilities afibnled to the missionaries by the Company, Sir J, Richardson 2965. 2986, 2987 At Niirway House the missionaries were very useful to the Indians, Crofton 3436-3437 l^e missionaries are paid by ihe Missionary Society, but have also somo iillowance from the Company, ib. 3439- There are nineteen clergymen of ihe Church of England, besides witnrss, located in Rupert's Land, all luriiished by different societies, except the one who is chaplnin to the 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 T 3 Conijiany, it n ! '1 ii*! ■ I ! 'I i ' .1'' ft .; ! ' » m J ^ Ml y-i- i ! 518 MIS NOR Rrport, 1857 — continued. -The misiionaries are vpry ileroted Mhtiouarift and Miisionary Settleinenit — continued. Conaimny, R^^ht Rev. Dr. Anderton 4^35-4337 — mill faitlitiil meti, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson i^if,i ; Caldwell 55761 &&1^ "ley are not Diilgect til any undue influence i)n the piirt of the Hudson's Buy Gompuny, Right Rev. Dr. Anderion 43/^3 There are two native Indian ciergyuien, and one clergyman partly of Indian extraction, who are very uietul, ib. 4353, 4254. 44*23, 4434. Explnnation as to the Company having opposed the settlement of Portnj^e-la-Prairie, on the Au'iniboine River, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4349-4355-4430 Explanation as to the opposition of the Conipiiny to the formation of h niiHgionary seitienient at Head* inglev, tb. 4431-4433 The Company imagined that the expenses of government would be increafied by a >etilenient nt Hendinuley, t6. 4433, 4433. See also Church Misiionary Society. Colonisation and Settlement, 9. t'ur Trade. Indians, fl. 7. Monopoly. See Canada, % Licence to Trade. Moofe Fort. Unproductive chnrarter of the crops it Moose Fori, Sir O. Simpson 748 Bar to cultivation at Moose Fort, on account of the climaie, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 42.")7-436l Route from Lake Winnipeg to Moose; there is not much timber by the way, ib. 4307-4320. Regulation restricting the i«8ue of .ipiriuious liquor from the Moose Factory, App. p. 36»- I' t ■' f, 1: I Nascopie Fott. Statement as to the situation of Fort Nascopie, or rather of the outpost of that nnnie ; whether on the Labrador Coast or not, it belongs to the Hudson's Bay Company, Sir G. Simpson 1563-1596. See also Indians, 2. Native Population. See Indians. Navigation of the Lakes and Rivers. It is about 500 miles of navigation from the southern part of Luke Winiiipei: to Fort William nr Lake Superior, Sir G. Simpson 793-795 Mateiial obstruction to the navigatiut) of the river between Rainy Luke and Fort VVilliain, «6. 796-801 Impediments to the navi^atmn from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, ib. 842-845 Obstructions, in the shape of shoals and rapids, to the navi- gation of the Assiniboine branch of the Red Rivei-, ib. 884-887 Obstacles to an improvement of the route from York Factory or from Lake Superior to Red River, ib. 1309-1317. Iinp>edimcnt8 to a sieam-bont navigation of the river rumiing from Rainy Lake to the Lake of Woods, and fnmi thence to Lake Winnipeg, Sir G. Simpson 1431-1445 'i he navigation from Rainy Lake to Fort William, a distance of 300 miles, is fit only fi>r canoes, ib. 1444, 1445 Adequacy of canoe navigation for conducting the trade between Canada and ihe Rrd River, &c., 16. '^053-3055 There are almost insupenble impediments to the navigation for 300 miles out of the 500 miles from Assiniboia to the he.id of Lake Superior, ib. 3130-3135. Circumstance of its being contemplated by some Americans to nnike a practicable navigation between tlie Lower Red River and Lake Superior, vid Lake Winnipeg, JferMagAan 2147, 2148 Ci)iiiem|ilaied river or canal communication between Lakes Winnipeg and Superior further adverted to, 16. 2182—2187. 2323, 2223. Doubt as to how tar the Rod Rivir may be navigable for steamers, Sir t/. Richardson 3074 Greater difficulties of navigation between Lake Superior and Red Kiver than formerly existed between Kingston imd Montreal, Croftun 3346-3365 The travelling of witnei'son three dlH'erent exjiloring expeditions was all by water, in c.tuoes or boats, Sir G. i/acA 3458-3461 Considerable expense of removing the obstructions to the navigation between Fort York and Red River, t'adtcell 5622, 5623. See also Red River Settlement, 3. Superior, Lake. Nivigan Lake. Cliaracter of ilie country between Fort William and Lake Niplgan, and betueen Lake Nipigan and Lonsr Lake, 8ic., Rue .578-580. 600. 608-617. 629-631. North-West Company. Referei - j an attempt being made at Toronto to get up another Nortli-wcst Company, and to toiin a colonisation to the west ol' Lake Superior; inex- pediency thereof, Ross 73, 74. During ihcT baneful contest between the Hudson's Kay and the North-western Com- panies spirits were bartered on both sides, the Indians were demoralized, and there were continual riots and breaches of the peace, Sir. G. Simpson 1648-1656 Duiing the contest hetween the Companies; scenes shocking to humanity occurred, Sir J. Richardson 2936 'i"he serrants of the North-west Company acted very kindly towards the first expedition to which witness was attached. Sir Geo. Back 3515. In NOR PEG *»9 Report, 1857 — contiiitud. In North-WtH Compwny— continued. •' III 1805 witDMB bcciime connected with the North-west Company and the X. Y. C(>m|>any, the two Canudiaii companiea, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5776, 5777 Subse- queiit auialgHmation, in i8ao, of the»e ctmipiiniea with the HudKon't Bay Company, tb. c^^. See ei\M Fur Trade, 1. 2. -^ - '^ ,/ ; ., Norway Houte. At Norway House, the northern sj-ttlement of Fort Cumberland, , are not on an avern(!;t' more than twenty pernia'ient residents, Lefroy 283 At l>iorway House com may be gri'Wn, but the season closes soorier ihaii ol lied Rivt r, CVo/tOM 3310. Route taken by witness trom Jasper's House tn Norway House, MiUi 4680 Varying character of the country from Edmonton down tlie Savkatchewun to Norway House, 10. 4681-4700. 8m also Boundariei, 2. O. Oil. Probable quantity of oil brouglil from Hudson's Bay to this country, Herd 4629- 4635. See also Fiiheriei. Oregon. Oregon was settled mainly from the sen, Rof» 86-90. 121, 122 Explanation as to the ('ompany having certain possessory ri^rlits in Oregon, Sir G. Simpson 1108- IH4. 1286-1288. 1344-13,51 Thf Comiany brought Hbout 5,000 acres oC land into cultivalioii in Oregon, ib- 1120-1122 Origin of the seltlemenc of Oregon adverted to, Blanshard 5270-5274. St-ttlement and cultivation were beiog largtiy carried out by the Cou)pany in Oregon, west of the Kocky Mountains, before the st^ttlement of the bouiidHiies with America, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5849. 6931, 59''2. 5934 Claim now being prosecuted before Conjiress by the Hudson's B^y Company and I'uget Sound Company for indemnity for the surrender of posspssory rights in Oiegon, north of the Columbiii, ib. 5849 Opiinons of eminent Americana ns to the title of the Coni|ianies to the possessory rights in question, ib. Ottawa River. Reference to tlie valley of the Ottawa, and the extent to which it has been surveyed and settled, Ross 106-115 It is about 800 miles from the western portion of the Ottawa to the head of Lnke Superior, near the country where a railway might be run, ib. 149. Remarks on the increase of settlement on the biinkg of the Ottawa, nearly up to Lake Nipissing, notwithstanding the former difficulties of communication, Hon, W. H. Draper 4074. 4149-4156 Gieat itnprovemeni already made, and further improvement con- tereplated in the navigation of the Ottawa River, ib. 4074. 4149-4153. Ottawa and Lake Huron Railway. Delay in the formation of the Ottawa Hnd Lake Huron Railway adverted to, Hon. W. H, Draper 4 1 93-4 1 95. Otter Tail Lake. American settlement at ihe Otter-tail Laice, about 150 miles north of St. Paul's, Corhett 2801-2804; JU'Laughtin 500S. 5012. Outfitt of Indian Hunters. System oK the Conipiiny in regard to outfits to the Indian hunters, Sir 0. Simpson 1007. 1063-1065. 1125-1128. Peace. Importance of the nminteniince of law and order in the Hudsoh's Bay territory, adverted to by the Commiitee, Rep. p. iv. See aho Fur Trade, 1. 2. Government by the Company, 2. Indians, 0. Peace River. A considerable popul ition might produce means of subsistence as high as Peace River, upon the alliiviiil poinis and the skins of the prairie land, Sir J. Richardson 2902. 2913, 2914 Upon the alluvial poinis of Peace Kiver grain might be cultivated, l)Ut the wolves ore a bar to piisiuring sheep on the prairie, ib. 3125-3127. Peguit. Inforniution relative to Ptguis, chief of the Salteuux Intlianv, ,vho has lately sent a petition to the House of Commons, Caldwell -3589-559 '• Letter from the secretary of the Aborigines Protection Society to Mr, Laboucliere, dated 7 June 1857, riative to an enclosed letter received by the Society from Peguis, chief of the Salteaux Tribe ut Bed River, App. p. 444, 445 Statement that the letter from Peguis was written by his son, ih. 444. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3T4 Copy ! !!' ! ! Mi \^ il;. ■■ H 'III' t t' '■J I ;3o PEG POS i Ml Rcpiiit, iHaj—CDiitiHtitd, Pegid C -continued. .'''. Copy of iliif letter from Peijiiii ; complaint therein tlint the lands of himnclf and hit tiile imve been taken awiiy by L id Selkirk uiul othiTH without tho promi-ed compensa- tion ; other cooi|ilMinu in the letier uguinsi the Iliidsuii's Bay Company, ^p/i. p. 445, 446. Tesliinoniiils from Loid Selkirk anil Sir O. Simpson as to the friendly dispovition alwiiVH displayed by Pru"'* toward* th.- Company atiil their servants, App. p. 446. Stltlement by Sir O. Sinipaan, in January 1835, uf an annuity of g /. upon Fcsuis, J/jp.p. 446. Pelty, Sir J, N. Lrttor from Sir John Pelly to Karl Grey, dated 9 March 1850, denyini; the accuracy of a complaint thai the Hudson's Day Compiinv rurniMh hirtre quaiiiitius of spirits 10 the Indians on the nortli-wesl In mier of the United States, App. p. 370, 371. Pemliinii. There is an AnKricun seiilcmeni ai Pembina, anil a small garrison and fur post. i.orhett 279a 2798 I'eniliinii is very nenr iliu biuiulary line, il>. 2799, a' 'he pensioners relieved the gairi«oi) at Rid River, t*. 6663-6565— — '' «" found, on the arrival of the pensioners, ihut the Con;p«ny had not suliicient cultivable land to uive them, and so, to prevent dissatisfaction, th .*y weie compensated in sums of money, ib. 6o67-66('3- Petitions. See Red River Settlement, 8. Toronto Board of Trade. Plvnihaen. Good quality of the plumbago found near Fort Chipewyan, Sir J. Richardson 3083-3085. Population. Witness delivers in a paper containing a detail of the popnlation in the Com- paiiie!>' leiritories, accordmu to a census or csiiniate made lust year, Sir G. Simpion I471 - 1473; and App. p. 366-367-; Estimate of 158,000, including whites and hulf-breeds, as the total number of souls in the Hudson's Bay territoiy, App. p. 367. 6'fe also Centus. Indians, I. Portages. See Red River Settlement, 3. Portisla Prairie. There is a small settlement of whites at Portisla Prairie, about sixty mi:cs from Red River; objection made by the Company 10 the forniatioii of this settle- ment, G. Simpson 1272-1282. 1359-1362. Possessory Rights. See Oregon. Territorial Rights. Post-Office, Red River. Consideration of a char^e founded on a letter written in December 1844 by Mr. K. Lane, then a clerk at Red River, relative to new regulations requiring; letters to be sent open for official perusul before posting ; any such regulati ins were pro- bably niiide by the Government of Assiniboia, and uere most likely disallowed by the Home Government, Sir G. Simpson 1895-1920. ' Statement as 10 the settlers having complained that their letters are opened and inspected by the Company's officials; belief in the truth of this complaint, Corhttt 2880-2888 Statement relative lo a proclamation by the Governor of Assiniboia, Mr. Alexander Christie, in December 1844, requiring that letters be sent open to the post-olHce; official documents hereon. M'Laughlin 4768-4783 Letter from Mr. Lane, partly dispensing with the regulation in regard to lettei's so far as witness was concerned, ib. 4778 The Company refused to take letters for Mr. Sinclair, unless he brought them open 10 the post- office, ib, 4780-4783 Witness is not aware of any instance of letters having been optned by the authorities at Red River, ib. 5015-5018. Postal Communication, There are sixty-seven postmasters in the Company's service. Sir G. Simpson 983 Arrangement in regard to postal communication ; between the Red River and the United States frontier theie is no rrgular arrangement in force, ib. 1882- 1894. 1921-1953 There is a small charge for conveying letters, iJ. 1892, 1893 Between ihe Red River and England the shortest route for a letter would be by Pembina and St. Paul's, ib. 1953. Evidence relative to the postal communication to and from the Red River, Corbett 2791. 2875-2879 Origin of the monthly mail communication between Red River and Pembina, ib. 2791. Prairie PR A QUI 5tl Ilrpori, 1857 — continutd. by the Praiiif Country. Fine nixl level cliHractpr of tlie country rroin the Keil Rimi Colony lo lii« Rocky Moiiiitninii, Sir h'eorgt Simpfon 840, 841 The country along ili'' WRn iiiwnr«l» Edmont'n i» a rnilini; pruirie, ib, 851, 8/;a Frequent fiifs im "I ifllie- iiriet adviTted to in connexinn with the fiintiii of ihc lund liur mttli-nient, Corbelt uhi.. . ■/ ,- Q874 ThtTc in a Hlopin<{ prairie; country from 600 to 800 niilpn wide whicli is niuoily grH!>8 land, bnt tlie nod ix Kandy, and in nut rich enough to produce grain, Sir J. Richara- ton 2H99-2901. 2913, 11914. Pmbyttrian Church, Anderton 4280. There it a Presbyterian Church at Red Rivir, Right lieu. Dr. Price iif Land. Practice in regard to the purchaie of Innd from the Company ; for rt*- or 7«. ()(/. HM Hcrc leasea aru granted for 999 ycara with remric-tions merely upon Iradin;; in furx, Sir a. Simpton ngg-iiaO. 1285-U91 KviUenLe to the eHlect ihat ilie price of 5<. or7«. ()(/. an acre for land is in tlie main merely nuniinnl, inaHinuch iih but u very Bmiill proportion of the at ttlerit or squultei 8 mtiko any payment for ihe laiul.iA. \-]^i-\-]^i^. 1797-Ih32. 1801-1870 Price of land at Red Iliver, hbi\ter 2,519 Lower price charged fur land by ihe American (Joverniiient than by th(! Hudson's Bay Coinpnny, M' Lituiihlin 5009-5011 Nature of the dennind for land in the Company's territory, Caliluell 5569-5571. See also Headingley. Vancouver' i Itland, 0. Private Trading. See Fur Trade, 8, 0. 13, 14, Profits- Constitution of the IIudKon's Bay Company as regnrdi the participation of the stockholders and principal servants in the profits. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5790-5793. 5602. Average profit* for the last seven years ; how appropriated, /&. 5802.5895-5899 . Sinci! the union of the Companies the profits have aveioged abuut twelve per cent, on the capital, ib. Particulars of profits or dividendB iM distributed to the shareholders for the years 1847-56; Api>.p,4A9- See also Capital, Proprietary Ri^hti. Witness whtn opposed to the Company many years aijo took the opinions of niiiiiy eminent lawyers us to their legal rights, and has, since his connoxion with ihe Company, taken luriher eminent legal opinions. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5823 Conclusion that the proprietory ri;ihi8 of the Company, as given by ilu- charter, cannot be disputed, ib. 5823, 5824 Existence foimerly of several proprietary lolonies in the Stults; how terminated, iV*. 5824. 5922-5928 The Company is the last pro- prielury government in existence, 16. 5824 Relerence to an Act passed in 1690, conveying certain pnweis to the Hudson's Bay Company but lor seven years only ; e.xpluniition hereon to the effect that subsequent Acts in 1708, 1744, 1803 >i"" >8i8 have contained clauses saving the rights and privileges of the Company, ib. 6059-6069. See also Territorial Rights. Puget Sound Agricultural Compani/. The I'uget Sound Auricultuial Company is an ofF- snooi of the Hudson's Buy Company, Sir Ct, Simpson 1124 The Puiiet Sound Com- pany, whi.-h cultivates a considerable quantity of land in Vancouver's Island, is com- posed of Si rvunts of the Hudson's Bay Company, Hon. C, IV, W. Fitzwilliam 2352- 8365- As regards the Pu};et Sound Company, its aflPairs were so much identified with those of the Hudson'ii Bay Company that witness could never distinguish between the two, Blanshard 5289, 5290.5313,5314.5342-5357 Impression that Mr. Douglas acted as manager tor the Puget Sound Company, 16. 5340-5346 Witness understood that many bettlern and labourers were iniroduied by the Hudson's Bay Company, though in fact they may have been sent by the Puget Sound Company, ib. 5347-5357. The Puget Sound Company is quite distinct from the Hudson's Bay Company, Right Hon. E, Ellice 5849 Origin of the Puget Sound Company in the increasing cultivation north of the Columbia, ii. See also Longford, Captain, It' Q. Queen Charlotte's Island. Queen Charlotte's Island is less suitable than Vancouver's Isiiind lor settlement, Cooper 3749-3752 Specimens of gold have been brought from Queen Charlotte's Island, Tennant 6755. Quichsilver. Valuable working of quicksilver mines in Culifomia adver'ed to, Tennant 5768-5772- Prairie o.24~Se8B. 2. 3U :,s I I. ■tt^ hi m ^lu I 523 R A E. Ilcport, 1857 — amtinutd. R(U, Sir Jithn. (Aiiitlyiiit of hia Gvidence.) — luiterfd the aervicii of the niid>'"irM Buy Coiiipuijy in i'<33i P'UMiil ten v< itrH ut Muoite F.irtury, onii vfar on ihr Miu'krnzie Kivii, iiiid otic neBMUM iit York l^iutory, niid hiiH bi en enipluycd iibout i-iuht yi ar<> in Arctic utTvice, ;)(i,r,-;ifi7. ,<',ia-.';i4 HiIkvo* tliut the t" uiiy «t'tilrini>ni of the SuHl-ntcliiWiiii until t'lt' cdiiiitiy |;riiilimlly nettles up to ii, iinil coiiiniuiiicittiDii it iiU'ordcd tor (Ic liiii; Willi tlic produce, 3CH-371 Wituei^ litl the Hcrvice of the ('ninpmiy lu«t year, 37 •-37,]. I'liiiiusH of the Kylf ir pursufil by the Coiiipans in iheir Iriirtic witli the liidintifi, 375 ■ Hii^licr jmyiiiciit j;ivcii fur tlir ll•!^^ vnliiiilde furs, mich iii the iniinble of eultiviition, mid ntuin the Iniiitiii^ y;roiiii(ls and the districts fit for nothing but the fur trade, 385-387. (148 liufiicni u to tliu fur trading estnlili'l — — Kfl'cct of the coi'.Htanc ice in Hndsun's Buy in preventiiii; any niiti^.iiion or ameliuration of the climate by clearance of the woody country, 395 Ciiaricter of the soil anil climate of Bunkit' or Baring Islanil. and of VVullaston nnd Victoiiu LaiidH, 390-41)3, Kxplaiiiitiuii u8 to Culunel Lefroy'a Htatcineot relative to short supphcH to the Com- pany'ti iradem, 403-400 Aliundiint supply generally of cl.ilies and ammunition for irudiiiL: with tlic Indians, 4(17 Supply of the yoods to the In liaiis on credit, 408-^— PiirticiihirH as to tlie prices put upon goo ix, with reference to their prune cont, which an liurtired with the IndiaiiA in cxchanue f.>r beaver skins; examination hereon to the cflet't that iiy the Company 'n tariH'afuir value is phiceil upon the furs, 408-413.471-51 1, 520-560. Lart'e eaniinifS of tlie Indians by employment at some of the forts in summer, 408 — — The Kctileinenl of the Indians would not be prejudicial to (lie fur trade, 417 Unsuccessful attempts made at Moose Factory am* other places to etfect a settlement of Indians, 418-427 Union gointr on of the white and Indian rucej, 438 Suulh of the Saskatchewan River the Indians are most tree from cross of any kind, 429 — Great im|iedimeiit offered by the ice to ships getting rouml to tlie mouth of the Mackenzie, 430-433- DifTerenee between the dim ite ol the Orkneys anil of York on Hudson's Bay, 434- 43S Length of the winter in the district south of Lake Winnipeg, 439-443 VVitiiess travelled liom the Hed Kiver through Minnesota to St. Paul's in the winter, an I found the country lery level and easy for irivellini;, 444-447 Maishy charauter of the land aloii;: the north shore n( Lake W'innipei;, 450, 451 Exi^ellent character of the soil at lied Rivet, 453-455- Betwetn St. Paul's, or rather Ciow Wing, and Red River, there are about 450 miles unsettled, 456-459. 4(14 Circunistancs' of Minnesota liavini; been partly settled iiefore all Winconsiii was settled, 45()-47o The prices , 503-51 1. (Jhariirter of the wood in the neighbourhood ol the Moose settlement, 515-519 Prociss at the Company's posts in leganl to the exchange of furs for g'»ods, 5-39, 540 • Particulars as to the iiiiiiibei of skins of dilTerenl kinds winch would be required for a gun, 540-558 Friendly treatmeiii, generally, of iht- Indians bv the Company's servants, 5t)i, 5G2 Relief m clothes, niediiine anil T.od i;iveii gratuitously it Imlians a! Moose Factory duiing witmss's residence there, 5112. 673-(JH7 Spirits were never harieied for furs, but drams were (.'Ccasiunally given gr-itiiitously to liie liunti rs, 5(13- 5G7- Beliif that a self-supporting colony could not at present exist at Rainy Lake or other more favourable districts, 573-o7*> Character of the couiiiry noith of Lake Superior and between Fort William nnd Reil River; it is very ill adapted for settlemeni, and is almost impracticahle for travelling, 577-601. 604. 608-617. 624-631 Immense obstacles to the formation of a railway from Canada to the Red River, 584-586. 591- 693 ""-' easiest route from Toronto to the Red River is through tiie Stales and hy St. Paul'.s, 588-590. With ii'k n.iy Vliickrnzie yi at* in ciitclicwan L'lii III' the in iiflordcd ■i|)uiiy luit U A E R F, C .^33 Ri-port, 1857 — eontinutd. Rcu, Sir John, (Aniilytiii of hit V,v\AiiWv) — eonli.utd. \\ itii re»|)vrt to the cumwr iiiiiil>« iid Luk'; Sttpci'iiir, tiny (Id nut (iiiy fur Wnikiii 60a, fio3. ()lM-033 A wlmle or teiil 5sliery in IIuiImiiii'h Hiy conl I nut be t'i»tiit)li«lii :•!. ..„ 1 > a,. «i.^ TL- _ .„. -. . - 11 ..:._ ...: 1 . .._ t ikliij^, d with liny ndtantiigi', 6:{i-tt4a- — The cnuntry gpiuTiilly i» jjuito iiiii)i'ciii)i<'(l hivp by Indian)*, ()44, f)4,'', -Id n^ (iciiil reiiilr nl' the rrsirii lioim upon the anli- ol spiritH, ti((t, 647 How Car ihf < 'onipany'H inti'rr to v.ici'iniiiion, 68;}- ■Fhrre is 11 son nl (li'bit.iblo I mil bt'twecn ilic North AniiTiciin IndiiiiiH and the Esqniiniaix, ns well hh belvvciMi diff'oii'nt tiibct of tlic bitter, fiH8-(i()3 — -The Anit'rirun fur coinpanic.4 npII infen ir {{oodi to th ' Indiana neiirly at the n^iine price iiH tlie IIiidson'H Hay t'onipaiiy, fij)^ Circuiiistiincei* of there beiiijr 11 conwidri- abic trulbc in kiiirils on liie Ainniic-iin Hidi- of the frontier, coiitriiry to tiie rules of the United Stiitin (lovrrnnient, <)95-70l. Railieai/ Communictitioii. Kvideiicc in fuvoui' of a line of railway conimiiniciition ncroRSthe Continent of North Anieriea, which hIioiiIiI lie .1 1 ontinuutiui) of ihc (inuid Trunk line, ond should pass by the Red Uner Setlli'incnt, and over llii' lloikv Moninaiiis, and so on to the Facihc and Vunco .vei's Island, iZ'«« i;j 17. 39-4(1. fi? -7'^. 148-I,'',,j A niilivay or a f^ooil r-ad from thi; went end of I.ukt- Superior to the Red River Settlement is the best ineanH of opening up and ixtendii'g llie laiter place, ib. 17. G7. I2f)-128 Great inipni't nice of ihe conieinplateil riiUvay acniHx the Coiitineni, inde|>enilently of its advantage in opening up the conntiy, ili, 72, 131, Knoiinoud phy.sical olwtucli m to the forinaiinii of a railway 'iliin({ the northern shore of Lake Superior and ac.r is» the Rocky Monntaiim to the Pac tic Ocean, LrJ'roy 2:j(i, 237 A milway might e.iKily lie unide fruin Minnesnta to the Led River, ib. 307-309 Imineiihe obslacles to the lorinutionuf a lailway Iruin Canada to the Red River, Rne ,^84- 586. 50 • -593- (.'onimiiniCHtionx aie being made by riilway from Chicago to several points, Keriiaghan «l8i If till re were a raihoad to Ued River ii would probablv bring settlers, thouLjh not at all to the extent that •.ettler* li ive gone to Illi.iois, Sir J. liiiliiirdsoii 3071. 3078- 3081 In propo-i'ig that the llncky Mountains should limit the Canadein boiimlarios, witncNg makes the reservation of a ri^lit to extend 10 the Pacific any future railway over the mountiiing, Hon. W. H. Draper 4102. 4104. 4173-4175. Sh also Grand Trunk Ridlway of Canada. Rainy Lake. Between Rainy Lake and the Lake of the Woods there is some country capable ol'cullivmion, Lefroy iCti. 190. 345 Probable extent of the district between the Rainy Lake and the Lake of the Woods, ib. 310 Difficulty of coinmiinicution with tliis district from Lake Superior, ib. 31 1 Absence of settlement on either bank oftlie river between Rainy Lake and the Lake of the Wo. ids; this river lonns part of the bounJary between the United States and the Piitish terniories, ib. 342-34,5. Cultivation, to u limited extent, might be carried on to advantage on the right bank of the Rainy Lake River; examinution hereon, Sir 6r. SJHip.ion 724-726. 775. 853-857. 874. 1406-1420 Quotation of, tinJ examination u|)on, an extract IVom a bo ik published by wit less in 1847, wherein he speaks in very favourable languaje of the natural advan- tages of the river between the Kainy Lake and the Lake of the Woods, and oftlie banks of the river, ib. 773-775. 874. I40t)-I4v;0. 1431-1445 No attempt has been made to form a sHiilement at Rainy Lake, 16. 2114 Insufficiency of the population with a view to settlements at Rainy Lake, ib, 2116. On the banks of Rainy Lake there aie many points vhich are fit for settlement and might produce giain, Sir y. RicknrJsou 2909, 2910. 3004-3008 The country by Lac la Pluie and the Lake of ihu Woods is very beautiful, CroJ'ton 3270. Rapids Settlement. Witness has not beard of any attempt by the Company to establish a settlement mar the Rapids, Right Rev. Dr. Anderson 4441 Objection raised by the Governor of Rupert's Land to the formation of an Indian settlement at the Rapids, Caldwell 5585. 5587. Reciprocity Treaties. Complaint that the colonists, under the Company's jurisdiction, were not admitted into the Canadian reciprocity treaty, Cooper 3662. 3935. With 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3U 2 Red Ti i '.^V: 524 RED RIVER SETTLEMENT. Report, \9it^'j- -coHtinncd. [ <) 1 \ Run River Settlement : 1. Origin of the Settlement ; its Expense to the Company. 2. Progress of the Settlement ; Statistics on the Suhjeet. 3. Means jf Communication considered ; Difficulties hereon. 4. Character of the Soil and Cultivation. 5. Climate. 0. I'l pulatinn ; how composed. 7. Trade with the United States. S. Discontent among the Settlers ; Petitions by them, 0. jinncxation to Canada, or Formation into an Independent Colony considered. 10. Suggestions hy the Committee, 1. Oru/in of the Settlement ; its Expense to the Company : Grents by tlii- Compmiy of a hirpe tract of territory on the lied River to Lord Selkirk, in June i8i i ; reference io the deed hereon dftininj^ the territory. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5779-0783 Expensive iind unsuccessful character of ihe Red River S .ttlemeiic; it was establislic'd by Lord Selkirk, and not by tlie Hudson's Bay Company, ih. 5839, 5840. 5931 The Comp-ii'v never voluniarily undertoi)k colonisation at Red River, 16. 5931 Exphiniition relative to a sum of 84,1 1 1 /. iis the balance expended by the Company in the purchu>e ami support of the Red River Colony, ib. 5985-5991. •2. Progress of the Seltlemf-.nt ; Statistics on the Subject: Eneoniagi Hieiii i^ivcn by the Company to ngriculturnl pursuits on the part of the settlers iit Red River; dtiijal of the accu'.icy of a statement hereon by Mr. John M'Lean, Sir G. Simpson 81 1-817. 879-882 The seti lenient had as large a population twenty years ano as it has now, Kernaghan '223'/ Outlet for produce imd consequent inunigration if there «ere a free and good comnmnication to and from the Red River, Ishister 2627- 2630 Circumstance of the Red River settlers necessarily drawing their supplies from St. Paul's in consequence of there being no proper communication by York Factory or Lake Supeiior, &c., CorAf 172737-3742. The want of (■cimniunicaiiou is a main obstacle to the colonisation of the Red River distiict, Sir .f . Richardson 3033.3149 Great dirticnltii.-s of land and water commu- nication, which act as a bar to a profitable export of corn by the half-l)reeds at Red River, Croj'ton 3242-3245 Bt'liet as to the willinuness ut the Company to see the Red Uiver country better colonised, ili. 3339-3345 Improbability of increased settlement about Red Uiver on account of its remoteness and the difficulty of access, CaWuieW 5373-5392 Great improvement in the settlement whilst witness was there, 16. .5525. 5527. Reference to a paper (App. p. 381-385) drawn up in March last by Mr. Gunn, of Red River, containing statistics of the colony, Roche 4544-4548. Statistical account of the colony, taken in May 1856, and showing the progfress of the colony since 1 84;), App. p. 363, 364 Statistics of the population, ib. 363 Statistics as to, and average value of, dwellings, live stock, implements, and machinery, ih. 363, 364 Statistics of the ctmrts of justice at Red River, and of the cases tried thereat, ib. 364. Statistics of the colony as prepared by Mr. Donald Gunn, of Red River, and enclosed in letter to the President of the t^xecutivs Council of Canada, dated Red River, 6 March 1857, jl;jp. p. 381-385. 3. Means of Communication considered ; Difficulties hereon : It is about 1,000 miles from the Red River Settlement to the extreme portion of the occupied pa:t of Canada ov the Saulte St. Marie, Ross 15 Nature of the* commu- nication between the Red River and St. Paul's; large intervening tract of uninhabited country, li. 31-35.91-98 It is from 400 to 500 miles from the settlement to the nearest iidiabited part of the United Sfiites, ih. 31. 91, 92. 98 The easiest route from Toronto to the Red River is through the States and by St. Paul's, Ross 36, 37. 88. 144 ; Jiae 588-590; Sir G. Simpson 8(58, 869 Impracticability, at present, of communica- tion between Toronto and the Red River save through the United States, Ross 133, 134. 142-144. Witness tiavelled from the Red Rive- through Minnesota to St. Paul's in the winter, and found the country very level and easy lor travellinu;, Rue 444-447 Between St. I'aiil's, or rather Crow Wing, and R.-d River, there are about 450 miles unsettled, ib. 45')-4,'>9. 464 Fic)in Caniida to the Red River, ilie only practicable route is north of Lake Su])erior inland, by Pott William and Rainy Lake, Sir G. iii'mpson 870-873 Explanation us to some supplies for the settlement coming from St. Louis, ib. 1072. Of the iliree routes to Red ]liver, that is, by York Factory, St. Peter's, or Lake Superior, the laiter is by fir the shuriest, and very practicable, Isbister 2529-2533 Practicability of improving the route from Red River to York Factory, Corbett 274O. 2742-2746 The difficulties in the routs between Red River and Lake Superior are by no means insurmountable, ib, 2746. Reference RED RIVER SETTLEMENT. .525 Report, 18,57 — continued. Red if'VEit Settlement — continued. 3. Means of Communication considered; Difficulties hereon — continued. Reference to the route ci^ Foit Williiim to Lake Winnipeg ; the North-western Com- pmiv n'oessiirily got their supphes hy Fort William, Sir J. Richardson 3042-3052 ObstBcleR to an inexpensivf communication with Rfd River hy Fort William, iA. 3054- 3060. 3136-313G The CHsie^t but not the saiest route to Red River is by St. Paul's; question as to this route beinu made more advantat!;eous. ib. 3139-3141. Description of the journey of the troops commanded by witness in 1846-48, and mode of conveyance of the giina from Fort York to Red River, C/o/lon 3165-3176. 3391- 3393 Witness relumed from the territorv vid Lake Superior and Cnnnda ; this 'oute was decidedly easy, with the exception of the portages, i6. 3181-3189 Purticulars as 10 the route fioiii Red River to Saulide Ste. Marie, as traversed by witness in 1847; the total distance is about 1,126 miles, and may In- perlbriiied in thirty-eiiiht days, 16. 3255-3267 Difficulties in the route from Red River to Sauk de Ste. Marie, more especially as regards the portages, which are very numerous, ih. 3262-3268. 3284-3293 ^I'here is every (acility for formin;: a commnnicution across the plain between the Red River and tlie Rocky Mountains, ib. 3271-3273 The chief difficulty to an overland communi- cation from Lake Superior to Red River would arise from the swamps, 16, 3283. 3293. 3373-3381 Desire among the Scotch settlers at Red River for an improved communi- cation with Canada, 16. 3^95-3297. Between water and road a good route might be made between Red River and Lake Superior, hut an uninterrupted load or river communication is almost impracticable, Cniftoii 3366-3388 The route liom Fori William to Red River is better than from Fort York, ib. 3389, 3390 Distance resjiectively between Fort William and Red River, and between Fort Wiiliani and Lake Winnipeg, fft. 3394-3397. 3406-3409 List of poitages occurring between Fori York and Red River, fioin which the naviga- tion is free from rapids to L"wcr Fort Garry, on the Red River, ib. 3396 The route to Red liiver, kc. by Ft)rl York, is less difficult than the FV-rt William, or any other route. Sir 6'. Back 3480-3486. The natural outlet of the Red River Settlement bcir;;; liirougli American tenitory, the gnater reason exists for forming an outlet vid tlie Lakes and Canada, Hon. W. II. jDrojjer 4063. 4172. 4220 Grounds for concluding that the comntunication through Canada to the Red Kiver is very feasible, and th:it the Canada route is far preferable to the rout'' by York Factory, ih. 4074. 4076 Facility at present for communication between Canada or England and the western shore of Lake Superior, ib, 4074. 4152, 4153. 4221-4224 Circumstance of the French some 100 years ago, and, more recently, the North-west Company having used the route from Fort William to Red Rivtr for the tian-'niission of goods, ih. 4074. 4157-4164 At present all the trade of Red River goes by Hudson's Bay and the United States, I'J. 4140 Facilities of communication between Canada and Red Kiver sufficient for ihe conveyance of troops,*/;. 4141-4145 Natural and only course by which the trade of the Red River can pass through Canada so as to avoid transhipment, ib. 4171, 4172 -The expen-e of communication between Canada and Red River should full upon the province, ib. 4192. Belief us to the practicability of a considerable improvement in the route from Lake Superior to Red Uiver, M}Lau%hlin 4952-4959. 5008 The Company have done nothing to improve the route to Red River; it is not their object, ib. 4958. Great difficulties of the route from York Factory to Red River, as travelled by witness and his family when aoing and returnm,', Caldwetl 5376. 56l;5-5623 There are 33 portages on the route fiom Fori York to Red River, ib. 5621. Immense obstacles to a proper means of communication between Canada or Lake Superior aud Red River, lii^ht Hon. E. Ellice 5838. 5908. 5914-6921 The natural communication with the Red River is evidently through America, ih. 5838. 5908. 6043, 6044 As regards communication with Red River, means of getting as tar as Lake Superior by vessels have existed lor years, ib. 5916-5920 Further reference to the difficulties of ion munication with Red Kiver; remarks on the circumstance ot the Canadian Government having voted 5,000/. for improving the route by Lake Winnipeg and the J.ake of the Woods, ib. 5950-5960. Passages in the statements laid by Messrs. M'Donell, Gladinan, and Dawson, before the select committee in Canada relative to the ineaiis of communication with the 11, d River colony and other places, App. p. 388-393. 399, 400. 4. Churacter nf the Soil and Cultivation : The country round thi- Red River is said to he very good land, and very suitable for settlement, Ross 12 F'avonrahic ciiaracter of the land fur cultivation, Lcf'ioy 164,165. 1(14-204.246. 253; Co;7>e^< 2712-2716 Excellent ciiaracter of the soil at Red River, Rat 453--155- Uncertainty of the crops at R'ed River Settlement; reference hereon to the necessary importation of corn some years ogo, Sir G. Simpson 719-723. 802-810. 875. 2117- 0.24 — Sess. a. 3U3 2119 m :!'18Hi a 526 RED RIVER SETTLEMENT. Report, 1857 — continued. Red River Settlement — continued. 4. Character of t/ie Sail and Cultivation — continued. 2119 Naiurc of the soil; iibout u mile from the banks the alluviul soil almosi ceases, and cnltiviitiuii is im|)rictii'able, Sir J, Simpsun ■j-i'?.. 8i8-8'27 1{.> fcreiicf to the waste of niiinuie at tlic settlenii'iit, ib. 84;), 851) — — The crops iiio usuilly tai;ood, ib. 1794-1 79') -Thi soil is alluviiil, Coibell 2723 The Red Kiver district is lu bust 1,000 led above ihe level of ihe sea. which altitude is a itrcat elemi nt auiiinst cultivation, Sir J. Richardson 3081. Excellent crops gro.vn at Red River, Crujton ;j20i-3204; Ri'iht Rev. Dr. Anderson 4257. 42(10 The M)il is peculiarly fit (or ;i^riculture, mid might maintain a very large colony, Croflun 3205-3210 Swampy cliaracter of the country abnui Red River, Cahhcell 5362, 5,'jfi3 C;i[)abiliiv 01 cultnation sufBcient to support a consicieialile populaiion, ib. 5.566 Baireu and maisliy character of the soil except on the banks of the river, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5847. 6037. 6. Climate : At Red River the winter lasis for five and a half months. Sir G. Simpsoit 744 Provable amelioration of tiie clmiatp in consequence of the cultivation, hbister 2577 Remarks relative to the climate of the Red River colony ; it is about the same as that of Upper Canada, Croftoii 3190-3204 Unfavourable character of the climate, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5847. Statistics, pr'paied by Mr. D. Giniii, of the progress of the seasons and state of the weather at Red River colony, from 1 June 1H55 to 31 May 185G, ^pp.p. 384, 385. 6. Population; how composed : How the population foriiiiii;; the Red River Settlement is composed, Lefroy 191 In 1843 or 1844 the popul.il'on o! the settlement was about 5,000. ib. 282. 353-355 The population at Red Rivei is now about 8,000, iiic'udiiig Indians, Sir G. Simpson 832-836 Rereien< to a paper containing an account of ilie Red River p ipulaiion ; the total of whites and Indiins is 8,000, ib. 1461-1470 General character of the Red Kiver Indians and settlers; about two-thirds are hunt rs. Sir J. Richardson 2962. 2973- 2975. 2984, 2985. Stiitistical account of the population re-pectively in 1849 ^'"^ 'S.^G, App. p. 363. 7. Trade with the United Slates: Increase in the cpiicral trade of Red River with the United Stales, Sir G. Simpson 1695-1697 Circumstance of ,500 wnugoiis of good-* having srone from the Red River Settlement to St. Paul's nr St. Aiiiliony's Inst season, returning with goods of American or Hritish manufacture, Kerna'^hun 2134. 2156,2157. 2170 Com|>laint in legard 10 the duties in America on the British gooils taken back to Red River ; such duties would have been avoided by a dire ct mute to the seitleim nt (hroin;ii Canada, ib. 2135 et seq. Circumstance of its having been rumoiiied that the Coiup my were anxious to slop the Red River triuler.* from taking their goods to St. Paul's, ib. 223,-,, 2236 Fiscal obstacles to ihc extension of trade hetweeii the Red River and the Unit, d Sla'es, Isbister 2.599-2606. 8. Discontent among Ihe Settlers ; Petitions by them: ' Belief ihai but for trade agitato s the colonists at Red Rirer would be perfectly satis- fied with the government of the company. Sir G. Simpson 1319, 1320. Refeience to a petition from the R, d Rivi r settlers lo the Colonial Office, presented by witness some years ago; belief iis to the accu^acv of the staiements urged at the time in sujiport of the peiition, hbisirr 2459-2467 Di-satisfaction of the settlers with the government of the Company ; petition by thesettlers to the Amnicaii Government adve ted to hereon, ib. 2552-2559. StHteiiient relative to a repMrt l)y witness, on his return to England in 1848, upon certain complaints made by settlersat Red River; data on which he answereil nine or ten questions with reference to Mr. I^bisiei's memorial, Croftm 3412-3430. Explanation lelaiive to a petition fro. 11 Red River, signed by about 600 persons, and lecentK presented to the Canadian Pailiamenl, compliiniiig ol the rule and monopoly of the Hiidson's Bay Coni|iany, Roche 4548-4558. 4561 i>tat.nient by the petitiomrs that tlicy have represented their grievances to the Imperial Government without effect, ib. 4556, 4557- 4562-4564- Witness left the Iluds.n's Bay Teniioiy in 1840; had been at Red River forfive years, carrying on business as a general tiader, in conjunction with his uncle, M' Laughlin 4710- ^^26— ^Was never in the service of the Hudson's bay Company, but has iransncied business for them, ih. 4712. 4717, 4718. 4913-4319 -Reference to a letter written by witness ;i: r RED REL 527 Report, 1857 — continued. Anderson 11 a very Led River, nsideiitble ' banks uf satis- RED RlVEK SETTLEME^T — continued. 8. Discontent amongst the Setl' rs; Petitions by f the inhabitants of Red River, and presented to the Legislative Assembly of Caniuia; it bus been forwarded to witness by Mr. Macbttli, a member of the Assembly, Isbister 6094-6098. Petition signed by Roderick Kennedy and 574 others, inhabitants and natives of tlie settlement, to the I.e^^islativo Assembly of Canada, complaining of the rule of the Hudson's Bay ConipHiiy, and praying that measures be taken fi)r extending to the setli ment ilie protection of the Canadian <->vernin( iit, laws, and institutions, App. p. 437-439- 9. Annexation to Canada, or Formation into an independent Colony considered : Obstacle to the si ttlement being govern< 1 or adinini^tertd by the Canadian Govern- ment, Ross 17. 124-143 Inexpediency of forming the settlement into a separate terri- tory for self-government, ih. 135-141 The r.aiiiral affinities of the settlement are with the valley otthe Missimri, and not with the vailey of the St. Lawrence, Lefroy 238, 239. Advantage of aiigiegating the Red River to Canada, nthrr ihan of forming it into a separate <;overnment and cobny, Isbister 2534-2549 lucre, 'sed value of properly at Red fiiver, if the settlement were annexed to Canada, ib. 2625-2627. Releieiice to a report by Mr. Coltman in 1819, u])on the government of the Red River Settlement; suggestion therein for a transfer ot the Government from the hands of the Com|)aiiy, Hon. tV. H. Draper 4080. 4178. I'eiief that terms for a transfer of the colony to Canada might easily be arranged. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5839 Preliminary steps necessary, if this country were to establish a colony at Red River; means of government, a military force, settlei-s, and communications must be, found, ib. 6033-6046 Sundry obstacles aiid considerable expense which would attend the formation of itn independent British colony at llie Red River, ib. 10. Suggestions by the Committee: The Comniittee consider that the Red River district is among those likely to be desired by Canada for early occiipaiie>i, Rep. p. iv. In case Canada should not be willing, at a very early period, to iindert.iki' the govern- mcni of the Red River district, it may he pro|ier to consider whether some temporary provision for its administratiun may not be advisable, Rep. p. iv. Set' also Administration uf Justice. Artisans. Banking Accommodation. Canada, 4.9,10. Colonisation and Settlement. Conveyance of Land. Currency. Distillery, Red River. Doll, Mr. Duties on Imports. Education. Emigration. Exports and Imports. Floods. Freights. Fui'l. Govern- ment hi) the I 'ompainj. Hnlf-hreeds- Indians, 5. Militari/ Force. Naviga- tion of the I. likes rind Rivers. Pensioners. Post Office, lied River. Roads. Selkirk, Lord. Thorn, Adam. Timber. United Stales. Reliance, Fort. Exceeding coldness id'tlie climate at Fort Reliance ; the soil as well as the climate renders eultivaiion impracticable, .!>i> G. Back 3471-3477. 3499-3501. Religious Instruction. The chaplains in the territoiy are paid by the religious societies to which they belong as well as by the (3oiiip,iny ; their keeping a school depemls upon the instructions of the society ami not of the Compiny, Sir G. Simpson 1250-1254. Refeience 10 and explaiiation vf tlie bequest of 10,000/. by Mr. Leith ; it was left for the purpose of ext' ndmg the I'rolestiini religion in and aiiiongsi the native aboriginal Indians of Rupert's Land, Sir G, Simpson 1332-1343. 1449-1459. Aiitiioiity for the statement that, praciicaliy, the Company do not promote religious instruction, and that tlieir donations to missionaries ate given »ith the view that the latter may shut their eyes to the (ihstiuctions ofJered hy the Comiian_\ to the setilement of Indians around the missionaries, Isbister 2485-2499. 2550, 2551. i{eguliitions if the Company in regard to religious worship on tiie sabbath, App. p. 36^. See also Christianily. Church Alissionary .Society, Churches. Education. Missionaries and Missionary Stations. Vancouver's Islat.d, 10. 0.-24 — Sess- 2. 3 u 4 Representative \f m 128 REP RI C « kv' ,.i !-■ il t^ I Report, i^^"]— continued. Representative Government. Tlie settlers at Red River consider that they nhniild have a voice in representing their grievances, or in fuct a repiesenlative governiiicnt, Corbett 2809, aSlo. See also Vancouver's Island, 10,20. Richardson, Sir John, C. B. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has made three several journeys throngh the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company, that i.-) in 181Q, in 18-^,5 onii in 1848; has passed altogether about seven years in the country, "2881), 2890. 281)3-2897 Is not in any way connected with the Hudson's Bay Company, 2891, 2892 General description of the country, 10 the eifrct that, save in a (ew places and to a slight extent, it is not capable of cultivation or fit for settlement, 2898 et seq. In some favourable places wheat may be grown up to the 58th parallel of latitude. 2898 Division of the country east ot the Kocky Mmnitains intn three districts, all more or less unfit for cultivation, 2899-2903— —There is a sloping praine country from 600 10 800 miles wide, which is mostly i^r.iss land ; but the soil is sandy and is not rich enough to produce grain, 2899. 2901. 2913, 2914. On the banks of the Saskatchewan the soil is not cultivable save at a fow points, and the district about the Pas is intersected with lakes, and is frerjuently flooded, 2901. 291 !- 2913 The noith-eastern poriion of the continent does not cotiiain any wood, niid will not produce grain under any circumstances, 2901 A considerable pupniatiun iniiiht produce means of subsistence as high as Peace River upon the alluvial points and the skirts of the prairie land, 2902. 2913, 2914. Until the settlement of Canada has advanced tu the Red River and roads have been opened, it is very unlikely that any settlement will take place beyond the lied River, 2902. 3033 'The limestone in the prairie contains a lariie quantity of mnsnesia and is not leriile, 2903 Circumstance of cultivation and setileinent at Fort Cumberland having advanced only in a very small degree, 2903. 3010-3023 The creater part of the country on the north shore of Lake Superior is rocky and entirely destitute of soil, 2904-2906. Between the west end of Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg, after passing Dog Lake, the land has no particular capabilities fur «ettleiiieni, 2907, 2908 On the banks of Rainy Lake there are many points which are fit for settlement and might produce grain, 2909, 2910. 3004-3008 Inferior character of the coal on ll-e Saskatchewan and Mackenzie, 2915, 2916 There is much wood along the banks of the Saskatchewan, but out on the prairie there is no timber whatever, 2917, 2918. Almost everywhere north of fifty-seven degrees of latitude a portion of the ground is permanently Irozen, 2921, 2922 The temperature is milder on the west than on the fast of the Rocky Mountain^, but is less mild than the temperattiie of Etirope in .similar latituiies, 2922. 2928-2933 Greater depth of frost according as the timber is cleared ■md the country becomes open, 2923-2925 At Fort Franklin, on tlie Great Bear Lake, \he winter may be said to last for ten months, 2926, 2927 iTIiruughout a great part of ihe country the trees are frozen to the heart, 2934, 2935. Illustration of the bcneficiul influence ot the Hudson's Bay Company over the In.lians since witness first visited the country in 1819; 293(5 Marked improvement in the Indians during the la>t thirty years, 2936. 2963 Good wa^jes rec.'ived by the Indians in the service of the whites; how paid, 2936-2941 Dissatisfaction among some of the half costcs at Red River with the monopoly of the fur trade, 2942. 3128 Obstacles to the adniiiiistiation or government by Canada of tlie Hudson's Bay Territories, 2943- 2945- 29,5(1-2961. Anticipated interi option to the present peaceful state of the country if it were annexed to Canada and (he fur trade thrown open, 2945. 2960, 2061 At Fort Franklin and other places witness has necessniily lived tor several monihs on fish, and frequently passed two or thiee days without any food, 2946-29,55 Provided means be taken to preserve order and to prevent the abuse of spirituous liquors, there would be no objection to attaih to Canada the Red River or any other district available lor settlement, 2956-2961 General character nf the Hed River Indians and settlers; about two-thirds are hunters, 3962. 2973-2975. 2984, 2985. Opportunity given to the Indians to settle where they please, 2964 Facilities aflbrded to the missionaries by the Company, 2965. 2986, 2987 Great difference between different tribes of Indians in regard to civilisation or settlement; particulars hereon, 2966-2985 DifHculty of christianising the Sotoos, a tribe of the Crees, or of making them culiivators of the soil instead of hunters, 2966-2983 The decs in the lower part of the Saskatchewan are very different from those on the upper part, and arc more easily civilised, 2980-2983. Instances of famine and starvation among the northern Indian«,in consequence of bad hunting seasons and the barienness of the soil, 2988-2991. 3002, 3003 Practice in regard to the supply of ammunition to the Indians; the Company do not barter it, and if possible always supply it \vhen wanted, 2992-3001 Wiih regard to the land bordering on (he River Winnipeg, it is not fit for cultivation, 3009 Thcie was an Indian vill.isic above Cedar Lake, on the Saskatchewan, when witness wa« last in the country, and the Indians RIC ROC 529 lil Report, 1 857 — continued. Richardtun, Sir John, C. B. (Analysis of his Evidence)— cow/wuerf. Indians were to a certain extent agriculturists, 3023-3027 All settled Indians partly cling to hunting, 3028. Circumstance of there havintion as to this route being made uiore advantageous, 3139- 3141 Extensive settlement would probably injure the fur ade, and would require a strong iiovernment to preserve tranquillity, 3142,3143 Qi ^tionasto the advantages and practicabihty of canal communication between Lake b lerior and Rainy Lake, 3 1 30-3 • 58. Roads. Statement as to the expediency in the first instance of making a good broad road to iho Red River, &<•., and hiying out allotments on cither side for settlers, Ross 17. 67. 126-128 Tlic Company do not make roads .it Red River, liut lontribnie tlieir share of the tax for the purpose, '>iir G. Simpson 1990-1993 Reference to complaints by settlers as to the absence of iniprovouient of the roads, &c., Vorbett 2759-2763. 2775. See also Red liiver Settlement, 3. Roche, Alfred Rohtrt. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has resided in different parts of Canada for the last sixteen years, 4451, 4452 Is fourth clerk in the Provincial Secre- tary's Department, 4453-4455 liistruclions from the Canadian Government under whii h witness has coiije to this country in connexion with the mission of Chief Justice Draper, 4456, 4457 Nature of witness's op()nrtuiiilii s i'ur obtaining a knowledge of the Uiidson's Bay tnritory ; he has never been there, 4458-44114. (iienfer value of the territory than has been represented, in regard to its mineral resouices, 4464-4471 Adverse feeling of Canada toxvarils the government of the Iluilson's Bav Company, 4472. 4509, 4510 — ^General Teeling throughout Canada that the lerriiury belongs to that country, or should be annexed to it, 4472-4496 State- ment by Mr, Vaucouglinct, president of the executive council, that Canada claims the territory up to the Pacific, 4472, 4473. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 X Reference , .:if m 530 ROC ROS Report, 1857 — continued. I y 1' : a Ruche, Alfred Robert (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. Reference to a report by the Cuminissioner of Crown Lands which has been presented to tiie proviiicinl |iiiiliameiit, and which contemplaies a guUlcmeiit by Canada ot' the prairies of the Siiskntcliewan and Rod River, 447G-4484 Di9po>nl uh'<'aily of the greater part of the available land in the western parts of Canada; hence the desire to settle the prairie country of the Hudson's Bay territory, 4484, 448.".. 4498-4508 Althouij;li Canada claims the territory up to the Pacific, ilitir main oliject is a settle- ment of the country, more especially as fir as the Rocky Mountains, 448(1-4407. Feeling in Canada that the rights of the Company should be abolished, and the trade wiili the Indiana ihrowii open, 4500-4511 Consideration of the effect iifnin the Indians if the territory were annexed to Canada, and the trade opened ; belief tliat by reslrietinns upon the sale of spirits the Indians would prosper, 4;51 2-4543 Increase in the number and the prosperity of the Indians in certain parts of Canada, 4525- Reference to a |.aper (App. p. 381-385), drawn up in March last by Mr, Guiin, of Red Kiver, containini; statistics of the colony, 4544-4548 £x|ilanation relative to a petition I'roin Red River, signed by about (ioo persons, and recenily presented to the Canadian Parliament, complaining of the rule and monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Coin- P*"yj <15'18-4/j58. 45^1 Stntenient by the petitioners that they have reptesenied iheir grievances to the Imperial Government without effect, 4556, 4557. 4562-4504. Reference to the committee now sitting in Canada for inquiry, among other things, into the validity of the Company's charter, 4558-4 jfii The committee will soon make their report, 456i-^— A;:th'iriiy and object of the colonial legislature in directing the inquiry retierred to, 4565. Rocky Mountains., Doubt as to the altitude of the Rocky Mountains, Lefroy 295-297 Particulars as to the passes over ihe Rocky Mountains, more especially that by Mount Hooker; they are all very difficult, Milts 4073-4676. 4701-4709 The Kooianais pass, in the American territory, is crossed over in wagiions, ib. 4706, 4707 There are three passes over the mountains: one througii the Peace River nhich flows right thiouith the inouniains, one from the northern brunch of the Saskaiciirwan, and one from the sonihTn ln-'inch whicli may be crossed in wheel caniHges, Ishister 6092-6094. Roinan-catliiiUc Cleriij/. Payment of 100 /. a year to a Roman-catholic bi«hop in Oreg in, Sir G. Simpson 1 102-I 107 Tlureare Romun-cathnlic clergymen at Red River, &c., with a bi^hop at their lieao, liight Rev. Dr. Anderson 4281. Kuss, John, (Anaysis of his Kvidence.) — Has bi-en a member of ilic Canadian Pailiament kIiicc 1848, and, in i:i(ferent eapucitiis, a member of the Canadian government, 1-4- Has paid coiisideralile atientioii to the state of the Hudson's Bay territory, more {specially in so far as the iiLtorests of Canada aie affected tlieieby, 6 Has been on the borders of, bat not in, the territory, 7. 12 Is at the head ol the Trunk Railway of Canada, 8. Within the last year a regular discu-sion lias arisen up in Canada upon the question of opening up the teuitory, 10. 16 Feelniji in Canada liiat the contiol of the Iliiilson's Bav Company prevents the ext<.'n>.ioa of s(.'ttleineiii a 'd civilisation, 10 Witiies> con- siders that it would Lea very great calamity if the control of the Company were alto- gether to cease, ib. Constant peace within the territory through the operations of the Company, 16. Constant war on the other hand between tliK naiivcs of the American tenitory, on the one side, and tiie Indian tribes on the other, 10. 140, 141. , Suggestion that so fast as the (Jmadiiin Government might wish to open up any part of the territory for settlement, tiiey should give nonce thereof t- t'-^ Company, who should, within a certain period, suriender the teiriloiy indicated, 1 1. 55. 59. Witness has hearl that at the west of Luke Superior ilvre is some land that might very well be siltlcil, i-j I'he (!oiniirv riund tiie Red River is also saul to br very good land, and verv suitable for setlleinent, iti. The country generally, from Lake Siqieiior to the Red liiver, is not adapted for settlement, being bi'tkeii and intersecteil by swamps to a veiy iirrat extent, 11. 147. Evidence in fivuiir of a line of railway comaiiinic itiun across the continent of North America, which should be a contiiuiaiion <>( the (ir.iinl Trunk line, and should pis* by the Red River Settlem(>iit airl over the Rocky Mountair.s, and so on to Vancouver's Island, 13-17. 39-46. 67-72. 148-15 J Obstacles to I he R° I River Settlement being governed or admmisiered bv the Canadian (iover.iment, 17. 124-143 A railway, or good road, i'roni the west end of Lak'' Suiierior to the Rid River Sjtileineiit, is the best means of opening up and eviending the la'ier place, 17. There is not any part of the territory on ihe froiitier of Canada which is likclv to I)e occupied, 18 tlnsuitablene's of the land round the Sagu"na)' River fjr extended occu- pation, 18-22. 15G, 157 Imiiortance of the Canadian boundaries being properly defined ROS SAL 531 Report, 1857 — continued. en presented Hilda ot' the •ciiily of the the desire to S-450H is a scttle- 497- nd the trade :t upon I he ehet that by liicreaiie lada, 4.-,25- Ir, Gunn, of n relative to eiitcd to the I Bay Coin- iseiiied I heir J4. ther tilings, e will soon in directing ■oy 295-297 aliy that by 709 The 4706, 4707 livur v\hich ikaiciirwan, 'es, hhister in Oieij in, lliver, &c., Puihainent nt, 1-4 toiy, more !i8 bien on R:iilway of question of e llmlsoii's /^ituesN coii- ' well alto- :ioiis ot the ; American up any part ipiiiiy, who that nii^lit I til b. very IVoni Luke ersL-cleU by t of North lid p isi by 'ancoiiver's ment being radway, or is the best likcK- to be ndfd occu- g |)ioperly tlertned Ro»t, John, (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. defined, 23-27 Rapid extension of the American settlements in the direction of the Red River, ^7-35. 91-94 Nature of the corauiunicution between the Ki-d River and St. Pnid's ; large iniervpniiig tiact of uninliabited country, 31-35. 91-9'^ The easiest route from this country to the Red River would be by St. Paul's, through the United . Slates, 36, 37. 88, 144. An extension of the Trunk niilwuy to the Red River should pass through the valley to the north nl' Luke Huron and Lake Superior, where the land is very suitable for a settle- • uieiit, 40-46. 142. 145, 14(1 The railway is now very nearly carried to Lake Huron, 43 How far it may be carried by the Acts already obtained, 45. 153 Neeesiity of the Hudson's Bay Company relinquisl.ing their hunting rights over any part of the teriitory which may bo required for settluig or for th« railway, 47-54 Hlustration of the difficulty which would probably attend a gysteiu <>i settlement by the Canadian Govirnnicnt similar to tlie American system under the ordinance of 1783 ; 5G-60. Considerations as to the propriety of coin|>eusation to the Company and the Indians in the event of settlement* being formed, 57-66 Inexpediency of any conflict between the Cnnadiiin Government and the Indians in the Company's territory, 57-59, 60 Proiection to the border country on account of the occupation given by the Company to the Indians, Go, 61 With proper means of co.nmunication the Canadian Govern- ment could extend its system of administration not only to the Red River but to any other settlement that nniy be formed, 63, 64. 124. 126. Further statement as to the expediency in the first instance of making a good broad road find laying out allotnie 11 i for cither side for settlers, 67. 126-128 lancouver's Island would be more attractive to settlers than any other portion of the Company's ttriiiory, 70, 71 Great importance of the contemplated railway across the continenv indepeiidently of lis advantage in opening up the country, 72 151 Iteference to an attempt being made at Toronto to get up unothei ?)orth-west Company and form u colo- nisation to the »est of Lake Superior; niexpedicncy thereof, 73, 74. Improbability of colonists loculing themselves at any great distance west of Ciinada, in jirefereiice to fixing on atlaiiialile points nearer the seltle.i parts of Canpd.i and the great lines of communication, 75-#8. 104-123 Setili nient of Iowa nndi r the United States iidverted to, 79-85 In the United States new settlements have always been cieated by starling from adjacent settlement", 85. 1 17-120 As n gards Oiegon it was settled mainly Iroin the sea, 86-90. 121, 122 Wiiness has no aceuiaie knowletlge as to the iinmlier cf Indians upon the territories of the Company, 99-101. Impression in Canada that ihe more noitherii part of the territory, which is best suited to the fur tiiide, is '.he least adapted lor settlement, 102 Kelerence id the valley of the Ottawa and tne cxieni to which it h,is been surveyed and settled, 106-1 15 Ditticuliy in governing halt-breeds, as at Red River, 129-131 Impracticability at present of communication between Toronto and the Hni River, save tlirou'jh the United States, 133, i;j4. 142-144 Inexpediency of forming the Red River Settlemeni into a separate territory for self-government, 135-141. Rupert's l.anrl. Boundaries of Rupert's Land ; the Rocky Mountains are its limits on the west, Sir G. Simpson 718. 737. 742 Right exercised by charier over Rupert's Land, iiej). p. iii. See also L'cioinsation and Settlement. Jiussia. Reference to the fur-trading establishment of the Russian Government on the extreme iiortti-\' est point of the continent, Rne 38S-390, 412 — —Explanation as to the C<:iiipaiiy having remed, since 1839, ;i strip of eoa.«t belonging to the Hussian-Ainerican Co I I any between Fort Siiiiiisoii and Cio?s Sound, Sir (i, Simpson 1026-1038. 1732— 1737 Mutual ananueiui ii,s between the Hudson's Bay and Russian Companies dniiiin the late war, iO. 1738-1742 Iidormution relative to the Russian fiir-tiad'.', Ri(//il llun. K Ellice 58 1 9. Sua^ueniii/ Itiver. Uiisuilableness of the land round the Saauenay River for extended nccu- piition, y^oss 18-22, 15I), 157 Extension ol s. ttleinents aloi^ the ^Saguen.iy iiiver, thoiiiili the climate theie is sometime^ ruinous to the crops, J-Joii. W. H. Draper 2199- 2203. St. Lawience River. The St. Lawrence at Quebec is sienerally i.p.-n from April or May till November or Deiembei, Lifroy 2S7-289 'I'h.' Hudson's B.iy Company have esiuhlishiuents all the way down the St. Lawrence, Sir G. Siinpiun 1679. Sale i)f Land. Right oi' the com | any to sell land. Sir G. Simpson 1204-1216. Ii'85-t268- The entire sums paid for land, either to Loid Selkirk or to the Company, have not amounted to more than 3,000/., ib. 1769-1785. 1797. .See also Conveyance of Land. o.a4— Sess. 2. 3x2 Salt, ill f 532 SAL SI M Report, iS^";— continued. . 1 '1 I"! !. . 'I' ' i'i^ i?" Salt. Tliere are immense quantities of salt in a very pure state near the Mackenzie River, Isbister 6ogo. SarsopariUa. Sug|!;estion that xarsaparilla be imparted from the Hudson's Bey territory ; it grows wild there, hbister 6090. Sttskutchncan River. Ciiltivntion hat been tried with some success at Fort Cumberland and oiher districts along the Saskatchcwnn, Lefroy 169. 171. 246 Length of the winter at the Saskatchewan, ib, 184-188 Belief that ihe country about the Sas- katchewan is quite capable of cultivation, Kae 368-371. 449 Obstacles to a'ly settlement of the Saskatchewan until tlie country graduiilly settles up to it, and com- muiiicatiuii is atfouled for dealing with the produce, ib. 368-371. The climate is still more rii^oroiis and the crops more uncertain at Saskatchewan River than Red River, fiir G. Simpsun 723. 752-756 Particulars aa to the navigation of the Saskatchewan ; impediments oH'ered by several rapids, ib. 776-793 On the bunks of the Saskatchewan the soil is not cultivable, save nt a few points, and the district about the Pas is intersected with lakes and is frenuently flooded. Sir ./, Richardion 2901. 2911- 2913 Fitness of the vidleys of the Saskatchewan for cultivation, 3/i7m 4691 -4700 ; M'LMvghlin 4949, 49,'jo. 4960-4965 Inferior character of the soil at the Saskatchewan, Right Hon. £. illice^^-j. The Commiitee consider that the Saskatchewan district is among those likeiy to bo desirid by Canada for early occupation, Rep. p, iv. See also (.'anada 4. 10. Coal. Fuel. Timber. Schools. See Education. Sea Voyage. Doubt as to ihei-e buinir any advantage in a steamer over a sailing vessel for the vi)yHge to and from Fort York, Herd 4.585-4595. 4642-4646 The voyage is farther and more ditiicuit from London to Foit York than to Montreal, ib. 4597-4598. Selkirk, Lord. It is considered that the land was regularly purchased from the Indians in the time of Lord Selkirk, Sir G. Simpson 1096. In 1836 the Company paid Lord Selkirk 25,000/. for the Red River colony. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5839 Remarks on the circumstance of witness having many years ago disputed the right of Lord Selkirk to the Red River coloil^, whereas since his connexion with the Hudson's Bay Company and the purchase of the colony from Lord Selkirk he has maintained the title to the possession of the colony, lA. 5992-6000 Doubt wiiether Lord Selkirk gave any compeniiation to the Indians for the Red River district, or whether his rights were inider treaty, ib. 6002, 6003. Sen-ants of the Company. Particulars as lo the several classes of servants in the Com- pany's employment ; and number of each class, iS'ir G. Simpson 983-992 There are sixteen chief factors and twenty «hief traders, 16. 983 There are about 1,200 permanent servants, 16. In the trading season the Company employ about 3,000 persons altogether, ib. 989-992 The Indian hunters are not considered servants of the Conipauf, ih. 992. 1125-1127 Nature of the supervision exercised with a view to (liscipiiiie and good conduct among the Company's servants, ib. 1024, 1025. 1046, 1047 The greater proportion of tlie Company's white servants are Orkney men, ih. 1054. There is no regular provision for the servants beyond that of liberal wages, but m deserving cases small pensions are never refused. Sir G. Simpson 1056-1059 The servants (rften save money enough to retire upon, 16.1056. 1219-1271 The servants of the Comirany are generally engaged for five years, liut th.'y mustly continue in the service for many years afterwards, ih. 1255-1258 ^The factors and trad<'r^ have an interest ill the irade, and are not paid by salary, ih. I26i-126'( Further statements us to the provision inaile by the Company for incapacitated or r;tired servants, ib. 1460. The chief factors and chief traders are ;iaid by shares, Right Hon. £. Ellice 5791-5793. 5802 Appointments to vacancies in the conduct of the trade are recomm'inded by the council of factors abroad, and are made by the board oC directors at home. ib. 579;{. 5795. 5798 (jreat care taken in regaid 10 the cla^s and character of persons sent from this country to situaiions in the interior, ib. 5829-5832 Constant watch over the conduct of the Company's agents, ib. 5831. 5836 Moral cimdiiut and good senso are indis- pensable in the traders and factors, ib. 5832. ,5836 Those s'jrvants are most prized who attempt to benefit the Indians, ib. 5936. Settlement. See Colonisalion and Settlement. .Shepherd, John. Letter from Mr. Shepherd, Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company to the Ri;iht Hon. JI. Lcbnuchere, dated 18 July 1857, setting forth the views of the directois of the Company on some of ihe more important points involved in the uiquiiy, App. p. 405, 406. Simpa.n, Sir George, (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has been governor of the Hudson's Bay territories tor ihirty-seven years; nature of his authority, 702-706. 712. 713 .Has resided for several years at the Red River Settlement, as well as in Oi'bsion, in Aiiiauasca, and Canada, 707 There is a separate seat ol council for li.e northern and southern It S I M P S O N. 533 Report, 1857 — tuntinued. territory ; umberland th of the the Sas- C9 lo a'ly and com- jiana in aimpion, Sir George (Analysis of his Evidence)— eo/i/i««(!(/. southern departments, 708 The cliief factors are ex officio the raeinbors of council, but the number in of necessity often made up by chief traders, 710. II51, 1152. 1372- 1375 Authority of the council, 711-713. Witness has travelled through the ujreatt r parts of tiie Company's territories; he has crossed the Kocky Mountains at three diHerent point*, 714, 715 He docs not ciinsidt'r that any part of the territory is well mlapfed for settleiueni, 71(1 e< ity. Uncertainty of the crops tlirouglioul the whole of Iluiert's Land, 7i()-7-23. 727 Boundaries of Ruperi's Liuid ; (lie Rocky Mountains are its limits on the west, 718. 737-742- Uncertainty of the crops at Red River Settlement; rtference hereon to the necessary importation of corn some Vfius ai^o, 719-723- S02-810. 87,5 Nature of ilie soil ut the Red River ; about a nnle from iho b.inks the nlUivinl snii almost ceases, and cultivation is impracticable, 72-2. 818-827 i'hc climiiie is still more rigorous, anil the en. ps more uncertain at Saskatchewun River than Red River, 723. 752-756 Cultivation to a limited extent, mi^bt he carried on to advantage 011 the right bank of the Rainy Lake River; examination lureoii, 724-710. 773-775. 853-857. 874.1400-1420. Ru>|;ged and mountainous character of the Company's territory west of the Rocky Mountaiim, 728-736. 7C 1-771 V\'itnt,iteinent hereon by Mr. John M'Lean, 811-817. 879-882 Different character of the timber about James's Bay, &c., and of tlie timber in the prairie districts, 820-825 The population at Red River is now about 8,000, including Indians, 832-836 Less rigorous climate at Minnesota than Red River, 837 Absence of American emigration from Minnesota to Red River; the nearest American settlement is at Crow Wing River, about 400 miles from Red River, 838, 839. 891-907. Fine and level chnracter of the country from the Red River colony to the Rocky Mountains, 840, 841 Impediments to the navigation fiom York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, 842-845 Circumstance of witness having lecomniended a missionary set- tlement between the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake, 846-848 Reference to the waste of manure at the Red River Settlement, 849, 850 ^The country along the Saskatchewan towards Edmonton is a rolling prairie, 851, 852. There is a considerable space of level and cultivable land to the eastward of Fort Langton, at the mouth of Fiaser River, 858-864. 928-941 The mouth of Fraser River is obstructed by a bar, 8(-)5-867 The best way to the Red River Setilement from Europe is through Minnesota by St. Paul's, 868, 869 From Canada to the Red River the only practicable route is north of Luke Superior inland, by Fort Williim and Rainy Lake, 870-87;-{ Ciiigi;y and barren country north of Lake Superior, between 5!ault Cjte. Mane and Fort William, 884. 90H. Obsiructions, in the shape of shoals and rapids, to the navigation of the As'iiniboine branch of the Rt-d River, 884-887 Good land along tlie banks of the Assiniboine River, 888-8()0 Rocky ami swampy character of ihe country north of Lake Superior, 908. 922-927 inferior cliarncter of the timber to the noith and west of Lake Superior, 909-916, 920, 921 Co|iper and iron exist along the eastern shore of the Lake, 917- 919 Swmnpy country in the neighbourhood of Foit Alexander, 958, 959. The crops at the Reil River aie usually taken in August before the winter sets in, 9C0-9O2 Before the Red River Settkment was founded, animal food and fish formed the main diet in the interior, and corn was imported through Hudson's Bay for the use of the Company's establishments on the coast, 963-968 Obstacles to carrying on a tratlic through Hudson's I5ay, 969, 970 Iiisjthcient quantity of wood on the banks of the Saskatchewan an;l Red Rivers, 971-973. 977-981 The oidy outfall of Lake Winnipeg is by Nelson River into Hudson's Bay, 974-976 At Edmonton the pas- turage IS very good, aud barley is very productive, 982. 0.34— Sess. 2. 3x3 Particulars m 534 SIMPSON. m :i .1 i' :i:*;| Report, 18.^7 — continued. Sitnpiiw, Sir Gmrge. (Aiittlyi*i»i ol liiit Vi\\i\v\M:v)— continued. I'lirticuliirs iiH lo the Mt>v<'rul ('Iiih-«i's ut scrviiiitH in the C(iiii|>iii)y':4 i'iii|iliiyiui'iit, ui)d iiiiiiliiT (if LMcli rluss, yH;)-i)y2 'I'he Ificlnin hiiiitcrtt ure not ciitiKidereil sciviiiits of -PaitiuiihirK hn titlie uniuiiiit '>) tliu liidi.m |)i>piilatiuii, \hv C oiiipniiy, (i!)'2. I \-i^-\ \i-]- 9!'3'!)!l7 Orciit miirtility iinioiij^ llii; Iiuliaiis iihoui forty yi'iiis iigo lioii) miiiiI!-|)ux nnci iiic'imli M, (j()S Siiofensfiil mtrntliu'iioii if vnci iimtion by tlie (-'oii)|)iiiiy alioiit 1820, ih. liicrensi' of the liidiaiis in tlie tliirii-w.Mid Loiiiitry, nut dei'i'eiis-,' ol thu India i» in tlie plains, !)))()- 1 "o,j. Rfstiii'tions |)lHci>d l)y ilif Company u[)(in tiairu; in spiriln, lnoli. H>4()-l(),-,3. 113.^- 1141 Sy;-tein in repaid to outfits to ilic Indian liniitiTH, 10(17. 10(13-10(15. 1 1 J 5-1 128 Pavnii'iil fur the tins hy haiItT m:cordin;i to a laiill vaiicil fioni tune to lunc, ioo8 Fncoiimsiinient uiveii I 1 Indimis to ri'sort tu u^riciiltiire, hill widiout success, looj)- 1011 Ci)ii>tant peace in the teiritmy lietween the whi es and Indians since witness luis heeii iioveriior, wliereu> 011 the Auii.tic 111 frontiur a continual tvar lius licuii ^oiiig un, Very little ciiine in the Coi«pany';enient ^^ivtii by ilie Company to tlie settlement iind colonisation of the Indians, 1092-1102. The tenure of land in the Company's territory is for 999 years, 1093. iiGi-ii67 The Indians ;ire never re(|uiie(l tu | ay for ife hinds tney occupy, IO94. 1097 Support by the (,'onipaiiy ol one of the ImJiau chiefs, 1095 It is ciiiisidered that the land was regularly pnrcliased from tin- Indians in the time of Lmd .Sflkirk, 1096 Fiirticul.irs us to the reli;,;ious or luissionaiy estahlisluuents in the territory, and the p lymeiits made hy the Company to them severally, IIOO-II02 Faviuenl of 100/. a year to a Rdmaii-calholie bisliop in Oregon, 1102-1107 E.vplanaliun us to the Company having certain possessory rights in Oregon, 1 108- 1124. 12«G-1288. >344-i3o>- Hon far p'ovision is made for, or eiii'Oi'ra)ieni< nt given to, the 'ducatinn of ihe Indians and hHlf-lneeds, 1129-1133. 1321-1323. I331 Extent to which the trans- actons 1 f the cnuiicil lire kejit seciei ircin the jiublic, I I42-II45. 1 182 All criminal cases are liied al Red River, and ore open to ihe public, 1 145 'I here is no saving's baik ill the tcrrilory, bui the Company alhiw four per cent, on money placed in tlieir haiins, 1 146-1 149 lu the Red River Setth-ment theie is a ciiculating medium of gold, silver, and copper, and a paper currency, 1 147. In thfc (hsirict of AssiniLoia, which includes the Red River Setlloinent, the lecorder, Mr. Fiancis Johnson, is the guvernor of ihe district, and exercise- exei utive, us well as judicial po«er, 1153-1156. 1364, 1365. 13G8 The gaols are ahnosi al«avs empty, 1158 The uovernor and council have no legislative powers, save as reg:ird> the niaknig of laws or regulations for the management of their own aliiiirs, II59, I160. I16H-1 176 The council assembles at Norvsay House some lime in June, seven factors out of the entire number of sixteen forming a quoiuiu, 1177-1181 Constitution and mode of appointmeDt of the council in the Assiniboia district, 1183-1188. 1363-1371. The SIMPSON. .53'; Report, 18^7 — ronlinimd. Copper- Simpwii, Sir (Jeor;jf. ( Annlyni* of hit I'.vidcntr) — rniilimieil. The n'cnr'ipr lor AiiHii)ihoia net* hIko at Norway llouiip, I iSi), 1 1 j(f' Tin* factoi* act nit niiijtiHtriitcs, 1 i()i-i ir,n Piobiildu pow>'r of tlio f'onipnny t>i iinpiiKon or reiiiiivp paitics I'^-fulilixhini! tlirmnflvcs on the tt-rriiory ; tlicy luivt- iiuvrr ri'iiiovcd iiny dik'. i lp;j- , J04 I'mctice ill ifi;iinl lo tlic |iiircliii>'c ol IhihI from the CoiiipiMiy; for f, s. or 7 ». () (/. iin iKTP, lenses nrr crniifed for ()(|() yeiir» willi restiirlioiiH mere Iv upon iiii'jii'g ill (iirK, 1 i(|f)-i2:0. i2H,ij-r2()i !{i^htof the Coiiipnny tonelj Und, i20)-i?i(i. i:W5- IZHS Tile milv iirtiric piohiliiteil loi export h tliiit. nf (iir, 1227. 1238 S ;it ■iiieiit us tu tlic ( 'oiiipiiiiy li;i\inL' ohjec'ted to export xonie tulliiw lor Mr, Jame« Siiiclnir. 1238- \i'S^. 1238, I2;j(). Ki-ferenre to a iinmplilet piihliNlieri liy Mr. Dunn, who wad in the Company'* ncivice many y'lit iii;o, 1240-1248 Alioiit tlie yc.ir 1832, there wiiit doul)tl(H.i iiiiieh iihuHe in rejiiird to »pinis on the iiortli west foiint, on iieeount of the opposition with the Unileil States, 1248, i24f) The (hnplnms are imifl by the religious soeienes t.i «hieh they behiiij. us well ns by thi' Ci.nipativ; their keepinii a school depfinls npoii ilie in- gtructioiis of the society mid not ol' tne C'oiiipuny, I2,",o-I2,'J4. The servants of the Company are i^eni rully en>;iiged for five years, but they mosily continue in ilie serviee for leany years aderwards, 12,"),5-I258 Tlie wni>es i,f the servunis or Idioiirers vary from 20/. to 40/. a year, I25y, i2fio The furtois and traders have an interest in the trade and are not paid by sahny, 12ni-12()3 Finther Klatenieiit as to tin luriH' f'lr barter with the Indians; vai'iatiuiis in it aie bctlleil by the Council, 1 264-1 2f)8. There is a sinill settlement of whites at Porlisla Pr.iirie, about 6 ) niilei from Red River; objection nnide by the Company to the formation of this settlement, 1272-1282. '359~'3^^ ''"^ Compiiny «ould not ohjcct aenerally to the formation of ne* seitle- mrnts, 1283, 1-^84 Any new ref;ulation3 atliectini; ihp Ked Kiver Setilement are pub- lished, but it is not considered necessary to publi^h old oidinanoes, i292-iac)8 There is no newspaper in ihe Red River colony, 1299-1301 Cost per ton of the freijiht on sroods passinji to Red River respectively through the {company's territory and ihuiuuli the States, 1302-1308 Obstacles to an iinpiovement of the route from York I'uciory ' or from Lake Superior to Red River, 1309-1317. With respect to a resolution of ihe Council in i84,'5 as to the duties on imports, witness believes it was disallowed, 1318 Belief that but lor trade agitators the colonists at B'id Rive- would be perfectly satibfiud with the goveinment of the Coinpiiny, 1319, 1320 — Consw'erable lapse of time between the purchase of goods in England und their delivery in certain parts of the Company's territories, such us Miickenzie's lliver, 1324- 1^27— — Better position of the Indians, as le^ards means of subsistence, on the \ve:it than the east of ilie Rocky Mountains, 1329, 1330 Explanation as to the application of H bequest of 10,000/. left by the lute Mr. James Leith, lor the purposes of religious instruction in the taritories, 1332-1343. Ob«tacle I" the council ai Norway Hoiisiirily any reference to Norway House, 13,^5-I3,'j7 'Ihe Assiniboia district loruis a circuit of fifty miles from tlicfoi-ks of the Red and Assiniboiiie Rivers, but criminals uie sent thither from d'stant part- of the territory, 1362. 1384-1387 Witness's appointment is by the Governor and Committee at home, and is revokahle at a ly time, 1376-1381 Witness has ncliead-quartcrs, 1382, 1383 The Governor of Assiniboia is lesident; 1383, Natural obstacles to the supjiort of a colony, embracing the Red River Seiilenient and extendins to L^ike Winnipeg "ud Cumberland House, 8i.c., 1420-1431 Impeihnients to a steam-boiii navi2;aii"n of the river runnin;; from Rainy Lake to the Lake of tiie Woods, and from thence to Lake Winnipeg, 1431-144,5 The navigation from Rainy Luke to Fort William, a distance of 300 miles, is til only lor canoes, I444, 1445- [Second Exaniinalion.] — Ueliveis in a copy of the land deed by which the Company convey land to setthrs, 14+8, and App. p. 3(11, 362 Further references ti and expla- naiinn of the bequest ot io,noo/. by Mr. Leith: it was left "for the purpos-e ol esta- blishii'i;, propagating, and exleiiiiinj: the Christian Protestant religion in and ainongst the native aboriginal In to take a census, but the papers are not in this country, 1474-1482 The census or estimate of Colonel Letroy was made in 1843. and that of Major Waugh in 1845 ; 1483, 1484. Witness delivers in copies of certain regulations of the Company, prohibiting the use and importation of spirituous liquors, 1485, i486, and Aiip. p. 368 Further state- 0.24— Sess. 2. 3x4 menl 1 536 S I M P S O N. KcpDit, iH.ijy — coniiiiunl. Simpnon, Sir Gforge, (A' nil of hi« Kvideiice) — toHtinurd. iiit'iit iiitd cxpliiniilidii 11* It) llif cirriiiiixtniirpA iiiiili-r whii-h the ('ompHiiy refused to •liip lifiiiU' liillow lor Mr. J. "^incliiir in 1H44 ; \i\X']-\^^\'; (Jii'miiiHtiiiice of witiit'ot Iniviii;; ottcii Nii^'iri'itlcd 10 Ml. Sinrliiir, Mi. M'Di^rmot, iiiut othen, tliu pro|iriety ol° cliiirtcriiitC u vt'vscl tor tlieiimelvt^H lor thp export of tulUiw Htid otlivr produce, i4i)(J-i/j(>i. 1504. 'I'hi! *'oiiipaiiy'i« itnpurts into tlu' territory ure iilmut (in.ooo /. a year, i^iS-i.fjuo Alxiiit .(u.iXM)/. ill iiiiporl.t ,» (iiKtnbulcii anions tlie fj^jiUOO liuliaiiH tiiHtuf tliu Kiicky Aluuiit.iins, I, -jj 1-1 5^4. i;J47 Dill'fieni ririicles niipnrit'il r-)r Imrlvr, i.l'J^-l.'i'Jy — — Ink'riiir >kins, diicIi iih musk-rnt Hkiiis, itro conHtuniiy tukcn in reiurii for u i;iiii, i,<)28- •635 There art' ditlV^riMit luiiH* lor fliti'i'ifiit phicen, lf,3(>, lt)l(i-l(ili( In (JanMilu iind till American Irontier I'urii uru mainly paid for in money ; in (he interior it in a barter tradf, 1530. 161 7-11)30. Althoiitih higher prices arc ijiven on the frontier than in the interior for tkinH, witnriK considi'iM that th(! Indian i* better ofl' in the interior, 1537-1540 Kxaminiitioii int to lite extrnt to wliieli the liidiann have in dillereiit parlH ot the interior been reduce'i'j, l()3j Sundry other ariiclec, including; knives, ^iven as presents to the Indiunti, i6'24-i6a() VVitnesg doi'8 not recollect the exiHtence of any ai^reemeiit by the Company to send criminaU to be tried in Canada, 1G30-1C32 On one occasion three nuii were sent to Canada for trial for murder, 1(133, 1634. Noii-obicctiou to u settlement and diHtinct ndminiHtralion of any cultivable part of the Comp.iny u terriioricH, provided intcrfereiico with the fur trade be interdicted, i'i35-i(J44 l(i(i(j-i()74. 1847, 1H48 Uvil anticipated from uii opposition fur trade on the Com- patiy's territories, ili45-l()5H During the baneful contest between the Hudson's Bay and Nortii-wchtem ConipanliH, spirits were bartered on both sides, the Indians were deiiioralisrd, and tiicre were continual riots and breaches of the peace, 1648-1(15(3 — — There is now no American fur company in the United States, i(i,j()-i(Jb5. Belief tliut spirits are not snuiggled into the Company's territory from Canada, 167,5- 167H — -The Company have ehtablishmeiits all the way down tlie St. Lawrence, l67C> Tliev have gone on in pi'itect harmony with the Canadians and the Canadian Govern- uient, iliBo i'herf are alxiiit 4,000 half-breeds at Red River, 1681, 1682 There are schools at Red River, established by the missionary societies, and assisted by the Company, to which the half-breeds go, 1683-1685. 1717-1723. The increased instruction of the half-breeds has not created any increased desire on thiir part for a free trade in furs, 1686-1694 Increase in the general trade of Red River with the United States, 1695-161)7 Absence 6f desire in the Indians to trade with America rather than with the Cnmpany, 1698-1703 The fur-bearing animals have inert ased under the Company's sway, 1704, 1705 The export of furs has largely increa>cd, and the trade is now (he largest and most valuable in the world, 1706- 1708. ^Vitll regard to the covenant in the form ot lease lo settlers, that the settler shall contribute towards education and religious instruction, the same is not enforced, 1709- 1716 Further statement as to the aiil given out of the Company's funds towards educaiion and religious instiuction, 1721-17-23. I7v!8, 1729. ijgi, 1792 Tleference to a eliaige made by the Coni|'uny tor the piissttges and travelling expenses of two missionaries, 1724-1728 I'liither statement as to the Company not requiring the niissionariei; and clergymen to keep schools, 1730, 1731. Further evidence as to the olject of the lease by the Company of some Riisisian terri- tory, 17;5--1737 Mutual arriingement between the Hudson's Buy and Russian Com- panies diuiiig the late war, 173M -174^ The Hudson's Bay Compmy erected a dis- tillery at Red River, but luive never worked it, 174,), 1746 Perfect liberty of the Indian i to .ict as they please, tiie Company e\< icisiug no control over them, save when crimes are committed on llie whites, 1747-1 7,-)6. 2057 Unwillingness of the Company to o|i|)o^st' by violence any persons eonnng Iroiii the United States and tiading witli the Indians, 1757 I761 Evidence to the iH'ect that tlie price of 5*. or 7 s. 6(1. an acre for land is in the main n'.ercly noiniiial, inasmucli lis but a very small proportion of the settlers or squatters make any payment for the 'and, 1762-1786. 1797-1832. 1861-1870 The entiie sums paid for land, either to Lord Seiko k or to the (Jompany, have not amounted to more than ;i,ooo /., 1 769-1 -jHi.). 1 797 There is an import duty of four per cent* on all goods, including those of ihe Company, going to Red Kiver, and the amount thus raised is expeiideil on roads and schools, or ollierwise for public purposes, 1787-1793. 1875-1881. 1990-1993- Tiie SI M S I M ^37 Keport, 1 4/^7 — eontinutd. 'il to •liip • ■» Ipiivini; jliiirtcriiit; I r,io It? Hocky The Simpiou, Sir UtorK*. (Analyitit of hi* Kvidence) — eontinutd. The Umi from alM)Ut a mile beyond the bunkii of the Kcd Itiver hni been experimented upun, and hnit proved not good, 1 794-1700 Statement hh t'l th* oractire of tquattinic, in c(ini)-(|iiencu of the (Junipuny nut enforcing [mymtnv for iho lurid, 1804-1^30 - ■ 1861-187^ Tiileji are not given unlet* payment ii made for the lun>l, and it t;rant made by deed, 1819. 1830-1839 The conf the Indian.', but nevertheless contribute thereto, 2056, 2057 - FiirthiT examinstion its to the extent to which land on the western coast is suitable for cultivation nnil settlement, CO58-2113. How fur the region about Fort Langley is cultivable, or suitable for settlement, further consiilered, 2059-2072. 208G-2096 lujpediment to settbaieni west of the Rocky Mountains, in consequence ot the watlike chaiacter of 'Iw Indians, 2064-20C8 Cultivable character of the southern, but not of the northern pari of Vancouver's Island further adverted to, 2077-2085 Cultivable character >(' the land m Fort Colvill ; less favourable climate of the British territory north ot the i'l. it, and east of the mountains, 2097-21 13. No attempt Irns been made to form a settlement at Rainy Lake, 2114 There arc a few settlers at Maiiitobah, aliout fifty miles from Red River, 2115 Insufficiency of the populatini), with a view to settlements at Rainy Lake, &c., 2116 Uncertainty of the crops at Red River I'uriher adverted to, 2117-2119 Tliere are almost insuperable impeoiiiients to the navigation for 300 miles oui of the 500 miles from Assiniboin to the head of Luke Superior, 2120-2125. Simpson, Fort. The island 011 which Fort Simpson, on the Mackenzie Iliver, is built con- tains some deep alluvial soil, and lurmin<; lias been very successful there, Ze/h)y 219. 246-254 Fort Simpson is not more than about 500 miles from the Pacific ; effect thereof ujion the climate and upon cultivation, ib. 249-252. 271-273, 290-294. 0.24— Sess. 2. 3 Y Sinclair, m ' <:, ' f 538 SI N SPI ir.' » ' I Report, 1857— fononie lallow for Mr. Jnmes Sinclair in 1844, Sir G. Simpson 14S7-1517 . ——The Company haH not room to ship tht? tallow, as they had not sufiicient tonnage, hut they siib8e(|Uintly liouiihi it Irom Mr. I^inclair ill Ins owiv price, ib. 1488, 1494, 1495. 1505-1515. See also Freights. Silkfi. Reference to a murderous scene among the Indians at Sitka, some yean auo, in constquencc of the abuse of spirituous liqaorc. Sir G, Simpson I "37 Arninj;einent enicred into by Hitntsf- nnd the Governor nl Sitka, several years ago, for the prohibition of the use of spirits in iht- English and Rusuian territories; it has been rigidly kept, ib. >037. 1038- Slave River. The Slave River, which connects iiself with Athabasca Lake, is interrupted by frequent portages, Isbitter 2596. Social Improvement. Regulations of 1 he Compariy for promotini; the moral and religious improvement of their servants and the Indians, App. p. 368,369. Geological Formation. Rid River Settle- Swamps. Vainoiiver's Island, 12. Soil, See Colonization and Settlement, ment, 4. Satkatihttcan River. j; |l'5 '; Sotoo* Indians. Difficulty of Christianizing the Sotoos, a tribe ot° the Cree^ or of making them cultivators of the soil, instead of hunters. Sir J. Richardton sgGG-'zgBs. Spirituous Liquors: 1. Generally at to the Regulation and Practice of the Company. '2. Compluinti on the part of America. 3. Canada. 4. United States. &. Vancouver'i Island. 6. Ejf'eit of Competitim in Trade upon the use of Spirits. 1. Generally at to the Regulation and Practice of the Company: The Hudson's B.iy Company have almosit entirely discontinued sending spirits into the teriiiory, and have tlieiehy largely promoted peace among the Indians, Lefroy 314. 318 Durini: witness's siav at Moose Factory spirits were never baitered lor lurs, but drams "ere occasionally given giatuitonsly to the hunters, Hue 563-567 Beneficial result of the restriction upon the sale o( spirits, ib. 646, 647. Heslrictions placed by the Company upon truffic in kpirits. Sir G. Simpsen 1006. 1049-1053. 1134-1141 Statemeni to ihe effect that the whole import of spirits into the territories from England has avenigcd less than 5,000 gallons in each year since 1847, 16.1044-1048. 1137-1139. 1247 Drams of spirits are occasionally given gra- tuiiously to Indian hunters, 16. 104S. 1053 S|init» are also of necessity occisionally given in exchange (or provisions, but never for furs, ib. 1048. 1053. 1134-1141 Two-thirds of the spirits imported (loin England are used in the Red IJiver settlemeni, ib. 1048. 1139 About the year 1832 there was doubtless mu':h abuse in regard to spirits on the north-west coast, on account of the opposition wiih the United, Stales, 16. 1248, 1249 — Copies of certain regulations of the Company prohibiting the use and importiition of s|)iiituous liquor*, ib. 1485, i486, and App. p. 368. Supply, at present, of spirits to the Indians in the more southern portion of the territory; grounds fur this statement, /«/ himself very strongly iigainst the Coini atiy's traders wiih rt-gard to the use of spirits amonjj the Indians, Corbett 2818-2823 Mr. Kitson is interested in the fur company on the American Irontier, but does not trade at Red River, ib. 2824-2835. Correspondence In 1850 between Mr. Abbott Lawrence and Viscount Palmerstnn, rt-spcciini; a complaint alleging that tiie Huilson's Bay Company furnish lirge quantities of spirits to ihe Indiana on the lortli-west frontier of the United States, Anp.p. 369-371 Letter fioHi Sir John Peilj to Earl Grey, dated 9 Maroh i8jo, denying the accuracy of the L-iinipliiint, ib. 370, 371. 3. Canada: Belief ihat spirits are not smuggled into the Company's territory from Cannda. iSt'r G. Simpson 1675-1678 Injurious effect of spirits upon the Indians in Canada, JtocAe 4524, 4525 Law in Canada against selling spirits to the Indians, ib. 4532-4534. 4. United Slates : The United States law for the prohibiting of trading in spirits wiih the Indians is consiantly evaded, Ltfroy 319, 320 Ciicuinstance of there being a considerable traiiic in spirits on the Amekican side of the frontier, contrary to the rules of the United Stiites Guverniiient, Rae 69';-70i Cheek upon the use ol >piriis in the American Fur Conipauy's territories, Itbister 2429 Witness has travelled lor upwards of 1,000 miles in company with the American fur-traders, and never saw any spirits amoiig ihem, C'orif^t 281 1-2818 Coniiiiet o\ the American fur trade without the introduction of Hpii'iis as a mciins of barter ; at least witness never saw or he.ird of any, M'Laughlin 4941. 5077-5079 Copy of the American licence to trade; prohibition therein upon traffic II) spirits, ib. 5057. 5. Vancouver's Island : Penalty in Vancouver's Island in the event of persons being detecied in trading with the Indians in liquor, //o«. C. W. IF. Fitzwiiliam 2333-2337. 6. Effect of Citmpelilioii in Trade upon the use of Spirits : Possible disndvantnije as regards the introduction of spiiituous liquois if the trade were opened, Jsbister 2412. 242S, 2429 If the territories were thrown open for coloni- sation, spirits would prohuldy besrenerally introduced, Sir .1. liichnrdson ;j075, 3076 Belief that tlioiii;h an opposii ion trade between two companies leads to a traffic in spiiits, a uciicral competition in trade wonid prevent the use ot spirits as a means of barter, M' Laiiffhlin 4927-4930. 4941. 4948. 5090 Impossibility of preventing the use of spiiiis iliiring competition in trade. Right Hon. E. EUice 5806-5808. Anticipated increastd introduction of spirits as a consequence of competition in the fur trade, Rep. p. iv. See iilso S'ltku. Si/uattiiig. l'iobai)le power of the Company to imprison or remove parties establishing themselves on the teirito.y ; thty never have removed any one, Sir G. Simpson 1193- 1 204 Statement as to the practice of s({UHtting, in consequence of the Company not eiiforrini; payment for the lai)d,i6. 180^-1830. 1861-1874 Squatters on the land have. not been molested by the Company, Isbiiter 2521. See also Colonisation and Settlement, 6. Stock or Capital. See Capital. Summer Frosts. Injurious effect of the summer frosts upon the crops, Lefroy 299-302. Superior City. Superior City is a new place, but will this year have a population of about l8,Otio, Kernaglian 2144 The city was founded a year and a half ago, ib, 2180. Siiptrior, Lfifte. Witness has heard that at the west of Lake Superior there is some land that niialit very well be setthd, TJm* 12 Riinarks cm the character o( the country north of Lake Superior ; it in cxtremtly unfit for scitlement, Rae 578-582. 602-604 Crasigy and barren country north of Luke Superior, betiveen Sauite Ste. Marie and Fort William, Sir O. Simpson 884. 908 Extent to which Lake Superior is iiaviL'atod by steamers on the Apiierican side ; theie is no steam communication on the east side of the lake, or to Fort William, ib. 1937-1952, Conin)iinication at present with the extreme end of Lake Superior, Keniaghan 2128, 2129. 2136, 2137. 2142-2144 There is now sleam-Loat coiumuuication from Chicago 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 Y 2 to m 540 SUP THO I' liji^f Report, iS^j— continued. Superior, Z^Ar— continued. to Lake Superior at the extreme end of the lake, Kernaghan 2128, 2129. 2142-2144 Further reference to the navigation of Lake Superior; there is communication from Chicago to three pons, ib. 2174-2179, See also Colonisation and Settlement, 1, 2. Minerals. Navigation of the Lakes and Rivers. Red River Settlement, 3. Swamps. Extensive swamps along the country from Lake Superior to the Red River, Ross 12. 147 Statement as to the existence of morasMs between Lake Superior and Lake Nipigan and the Rainy Lake, Lefroy 229-235 Marshy character of tlie land along the north shore of Luke Winnipeg, Rae 4,50, 451 Rocky and swampy character of the country north of Lake Superior, Sir G. Simpson 908. 922-927. T. Tallow. Difficulty in makin;; up the return cargo to England, when the vessel is not full, by the addition of tallow from Red River; shart supply there. Herd <^6^2i 4624. A quantity of tallow and tongues was sent to York Factory by the Red River settlers, but for two years the Company could not, or would not, freight it, and it was eventually sold to the Company, McLaughlin 5001-5003 in the colony the Company charge a freight of 8 I, per ton for exporting ihe tallow, whilst the Company in London offered to take it at 2 /. per ton, 16. 5001. 5004. See also Exports and Imports. Freights. Sinclair, James. Tar. The Mackenitie River district contains abundant quantities of tar easily accessible, Isbister 6090. Tariff of Prices ( Fiir Trade). See Fur Trade, 6. Tea Plant. Remarks on the Labrador tea plant, which was formerly largely inported into this country by the Company, Isbister 6090. Tennant, Jimes. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Professor of Mineralogy at Kino;'s College, .5745 Has examined large quxntities of minerals brought to this country from the Hudson's Bay territory, 5746 Minerals doubtless exist there iu large quantities, but it is very questionable whether they can be worked profitably, 5747-5751 On the American side of Lake Superior silver and copper exist more abundantly than on the British side, and the copper has been extensively worked, 5748, 5749. 5752, 5753 Reference to a S|)ecinien of pure copper brought from the Copper Mine River, 5754, 5755- Specimens of gold have been brought from Queen Charlotte's Island, 5755 Simi- larity bettveen the features of the muierul districts in British North America and iu Siberia, 575t)-57o8 Existence and working of mines of cryslite and lead in Green- land adverted to, 575>*-5764 Probable existence of similar minerals in parts of British North America as have been found in other countries of a like formation, 5764-5767 Valuable working of quicksilver mines in California, 57C8-5772— — Uemarks on c ertain minerals found in Australia, 5773, 5774- Tenure of Land. The tenure of land in the Company's territory is for 999 years. Sir G. Simpson 1093. 1161-1167 Explanation in re<;ard to the tenure of a farm belonging to witness iit Red River, which formerly l)elonged to his father as a retired ofhcer of the Company, Isbister 2500-2513 Nature of the deed under which the Imul is held, ib. 2513. 2520 Piactice in regard to the amount of land held by each settler; power to subdiviiie or sell the same, Crofton ^^ino-^-.^Qj. 331 1. Territorial Rights. The Company's clnii.~ to the territory is confined to the portion east of the Rocky Mountains ; their long possesb:./ii alone would constitute some claim to the territoiy. Right Hon. E. £Wtce 5868-5872. Opinion of the Attorney-general and Solicitor-general that tlie validity and construction cf the charter cannot be considered apart from the enjoyment tliathas been had under it during nearly two centuries, that is as regHi'ds the territorial rights claimed, App, p. 403. Opinion of the Attorney-general and Solicitor-general that on every legal principle the Compuny's territorial ownership of the lands granted, or the charter and the rights nect s-nrdy incidental thereto, ought to btt deemed to be valid, App. p. 403, 404. See also Boundaries, Selkirk, Lord. Thompson's River. On the mainland, opposite Vancouver's Island, there is a beautiful tract of country called Thom[ison River, which should be included in the island as a colony, and for purposes of settlement, Cooper 3606-3608. 3734 Witness further speaks of the Canada, 6, 7. Legal Opinion. Proprietary Rights. ;i I HO UNI 54I Report, iH^j— continued. Thompton'i River — continued. the district of Thompson's River as being peculiarly fit for colonisation, Cooper 3902* 3905. 3914-3923 Goodness of the soil and climate of Thompson's River, Miles 4666, 4667. Thorn, Adam. Instance of Mr. Thorn, the Recorder of the Court at Red River, having been summoned and having denied the competency of the court to try him, M'Laughlin 4808. 49B6, 4987 Mr. Thorn was extremely unpopular at Red River, and it v^as said that he was very partial in the ndministration of the law, ib. 4974-4991 [t was said tliat he was consulted by persons in reference to their cases before he adjudicated upon them, »6. 4988-4991. Mr. Adam Thorn was ihe recorder for some time during witness's governorship ; he had been in office since 1839, Caldwell 5413. 5423,5424 Subsequently to 1849, Mr. Thorn did not net as recorder; but in 1852, he was appointed clerk of the court, and filled that office for two years, i6. 5424. 5429-5435. 5440-5441.5500-5502. 5505 Strong public dissatisfuction with with Mr. Thorn's judgments as recorder, 16, 5425-5428. 5600-5604. See also Fast v. Pelly. Timber, Character of the wood in the neighbourhood of the Moose settlement, Jiae 515- 519 Different character of the timber about James's Biiy, &c., and of the timber in the priiirie districts, Sir G. S«/»y>so» 820-825 Inferior character of the timber to the norih and west of Lake Superior, ib. 909-916. 920, 921 Insufficient quantity of wood on the banks of the Saskatchewan imd Red Rivers, t/y. 971-973. 977-981. There is a fair (|uai)tity of timber about lied River, Corbett 2726-2728 NuraerouR streams running into the Red River with timber on the l)anks, ib. 2854-2863 There is fi ^ood deal of timber all the way up to Portage-la-Prairie on the Assiniboine River, ib. 28G4-2870. Therj is much wood along the banks of the Saskatchewan, but out on the prairie there is IK) tiavber whatever, Sir J. Richardson 2917, 2918 — — ..Jnture of thf timber on Van- couver's island and on the mainland north of the American territnry. Cooper 3720-3733 Magnificent trees growing in the district south of the Athabasca Lake, King 5660- ■•">'-;2. it : 'e Bounduiies, 1. Canada, 6, 7. Indians, 8. /:»• 1 !7 Rights. Selkirk, -Lord. Territorial Rights. Legal Opinion. Pro. Toronto Board of Trade. Petition from the Board of Trade of the City of Toronto to the Legislative Assembly, presented 20 April 1857, with reference to the exclusive rights exercised by the Hudson's Bay Company, App. p. 435. Trade. See Fur Trade. Traders. The average annual share of profits of each chief trader has been 308 /. 1 1 «. 7 any, ib. 5100. 5104 Witness received no salary. ner fiom ihe Company or tlie Government, j6. 5148, 5'4!l- o'56, 5157 Ex|)ectaiii,ii> which induced hiin to accept the uppoiniiiient, ilj. 5149- 5160, 5161. Statement as to liis having been proii.ised 1,000 acres oC land by the govenioi of the Company, which promise was subsequently evaded, 7{/a;/.s7wrff 5 l4()-,-3i5,5 —Consider- able expense incuircrj by witness in the matter, ih. 5158, 5l,j(). 5l on the island, 16. 3929, 3930 Advantage of the settlers in being free from import duties, ih. 3932-3934 Further statement that the rule of the Company does of itself prevent immigration and settlement, 16. 3935. 3941-3943. The distance from England and the nearness to the Californian gold fields have pre- vented the settlement and projires- of ihe island. Miles 4660 High prices demanded by the Company in Vancuuver's Island for their stores, more especially in the case of settlers, Blunshird 5162-5167 Doubt whether the Californian gold fields have operated as a bar to seitlemeijt, ib. 5168, 5169 The Company have thrown no diffi- culties in 'he way of a colonisation of the island. Right Hon. E. Ellice 5880, 6. PWce of Land: Practice in regard to the sale of land, Hon. C. W. W. Fitzwilliam 2329; Cooper 3995-4000. 4114-41 19 The price of land is 1 1, per acre, except at Vic'oria, where ii is much higher, Coo;f the peace, ib. 3633-3644. 3658-3660 Danger of the colonists from the treachery of the Indians, ib. 3662. Employment of Indians on the coal-mines and farms. Cooper 3761-3763 -Payment of the Indians in trade goods, they not generally understandi.ig the value of money, ib. 3764-3767 Further evidence as 10 the mode of payment of the Indians and Com- pany's servants; complaints hereon, ib. 3975-3985. The natives subsist chiefly by fishing, and are a very degrnded race, Blaruhard qW;- 5120. 52^^1-5260— —They were very kindly treated by the Company when witness was there, ib. t,\(S. 5234, 5235. 5244 Instance of murder by some Indians; how dealt with, ib. 5199, 5200. 5231-5233 As in ihe United States, so in Vancouver's Island, the red man would soon disappear before the march of civilisuuon, ib. 5239-5243. 12. Suitableness generally of the Island for Colonisation and Settlement : Vancouver's Island would be more attractive to settlers than any olher portion of the Company's territory, JRos« 70, 7 1 Witness has not vi^ted Vancouver's Island, but understands that it is only the southern end that is favourable to" settlement, Sir G. Simpson 730-732. 760-763. 2077-2085 Fine timber la the island, for which there is an excellent market at San Francisco, Kemaghan 2208-2:110. Character of the country; the soil ia generally productive, though in places rocky, and the fir timber is magnificent, Hon. C. W. W. I'itzwillium 2249. 2256. 2379,2380 Excellent harbours at Hsquimault and other places, ib. 2257, 2258. 2277. 2299. 2338, 2339' 2372,2373 Productive land in the Cowichan valley, ib. 2268 The island is the most valuable British possession in the Pacific, 16. 2277 Size of the island, ib. 2294 Character oltlie navigation from Victoria to Nanaimo, lYi. 231 1-2313 Wheat, oats, barley, and potatoes, are easily raised in the island, ib. 2376-2381. The land is partially wooded and partially open with prairie, and is capable of culti- vation to a considerable extent. Cooper 3572. 3608, 3609. 3706-3719 With respect to the soil of the country, it is peculiarly well adapted to the production of corn and vegetables, ib. 3696-3719 Wheal produces from -twenty-five to forty bushels per acre, ib. 3716-3719 There are several small streams in the island, and the valleys are \ery fertil.', 16. 3818-3821 Rain falls as abundantly as in England, ib. 3822, 3823 Some VANCOUVER'S ISLAND. ,545 Report, 1 857 — continued. III regard Vancovver's Island — continued. 12. Suitableneis generalli/ of the Island, i^e. — continued. Some of the land is mountaiitous, and not cultivable, Cooper 3968-3970 Nature of the communication with San Francisco ; probability of settlement from ihat quarter, ib. 3091-3994. ..OSS cunniders that in soil, climate, minerals, &c., the island possesses everything es-ential for tho formation of a great colony, Miles 4G54-4663 The soil 'm very good and rich, ib. 4654. 4667 Fitness of the island for an English settlement, lilumhard 5105 A iiirge portion of the soil is very fertile, ib. 5105. 5303, 5304 The eastern piirt of the island is very well adapted for cultivation, ib. 5105 There is a great deal of timber, principally pine; this, wi regards colonisation, would be an ndvantage rather than an obstruction, ib. 5106-5110. 5291-5302 The neiuhbourhood of Esquimault Harbour seemed to witness the best place for a colony, ib. 5288. The island is a most valuable possession, and peculiarly well suited for an English settlement, Right Hon. E. Ellice 5856-5858 'i'here is an excellent harbour, fine timber, an abundance of fish, and a gr m1 climate, ib. 5858. 13. Climate: Suitublcness of the climate of the island for settlement by Englishmen, Hon. C. W. W. Fitztoilliam 2249 The climate is superior to that of England, Cooper 3572 ; Milts 4654 The climE^te is very good and temperate, and is not subject to such extreme!* as that of England, Blanshard 5105 5277-5283. 14. Coal Mines; Available supply of coals in the island, Kernaghan 211 1-2114 Particulars relative to the coal mines at Nanimo, about 80 miles to the north of Fort Victoria, on the east coast, Hon. C. IF. W. Fitzwiltiam 2250-2252. 2300-2310. 2319-2322. 2340. 2374, 2375 The Company claimed a royalty on the coal mines, ib. 2358 Excellent and ab'Tidant supply of coal in the island ; obstacles to its export. Cooper 3583-3588 Fuiiher reference to the large and excellent coal mines in the island ; the monopoly of <'he Company and the heavy American duty are a bar to their development, ib. 3753- 3/1 : — —The coal mine worked by the Company lies close to the shore, ib. 3831-3834. "ViTitness did not visit the coal mines, but believes they are very valuable. Miles 4657 Coal had been discovered only in small quantities whilst witness was there, /7/afi- sAard5i2i. 15. Fisheries: The fisheries along the coast are singularly productive, the fish being iraded by the Indians with the Hudson's Bay Company, Hon. C. W. W. Fitzwilliam 2259, 2260. 2366-2369 Extensive fisheries in and around the island. Cooper 3589, 3f,qo Export by the colonists offish to the Sandwich Islands, 16.3896-3901 Obstacles but for which whalers would resort to the island, ib. 3942-3946. 3986-3990 The fisheries will in time be very productive. Miles 4658. 16. Unprofitable Outlay by the Cumpuuij: Non-advantage of the island to the Company, Cooper 3816, 3817. 3829 The Com- pany made a great, mistake in accepting the grant of Vancouver's Island ; they liave spent very large sums there for which there has been no return in any way. Right. Hon, E. Ellice 5850, 5851. 5856. 5875-5880 There has already been an outlay of some 80,000/. by t!ie Company, ib. 5856. 17. Recommended re'possession by the Crown: The sooner the island is re-possessed by the Crown the better, Riy/it lion. E, i'Mice 6S56, 5857- The committee recommend the termination of tho connexion of the Hudson's Buy (Company with Vancouver's Island ns the best means of favouring the development of the' great natural resources of that important colony. Rep. p. iv. 18. Recommended Extension of the Colony so as to comprise the Land west of the Rocky Mountains: Vancouver's Island and the mainland west of the Rocky Mountains should form a separate colony and government, Isbister 2447, 2448. 2526 The legislature at Van- couver's Island should govern the adjacent country up to the Rocky Mountains, Riyht Hon. E. Ellice 5859-5862. Means should be provided for the ultimate extension of the colony over any portion of the adjoining Conlinent, to the west of the Rocky Mountains, on which permanent set- tlement may be found practicable. Rep, p. iv. 0.24 — Sess. 2. 3 Z 10. Evidence s^ VAN WH A Report, 1857— conpatch from the hitter, dattd 28th Felnuary 1856, App. p. 453. Extract of further despatch from (iovernor Doujilas, dated 7 June 1856, reporting the >teps taki'ii in currying out the instructions of 28th February, App. p. 454. Extract of further despatch, dated 22 July i8.)n, enclosing minutes of council of 4th and yth June ; also reporting the termination of the 'jlections, and that the Assembly is convened for the if.ih August, App. p. 454-456. Extract of further despatch from Governor Douglas, dated 20 August 1856, reporting the opening of the House of Assembly on tlie I2tli Aui^ust, and enclosing his address on thai occiision, App. p. 456-458. Copy of further de.-«patch, dated 31 October 1856, reporting further proceedings of the Assembly, and the aujustment, without his interference, of party ditferences, App. p. 458, 459- Copy of further despatch, dated 9 January 1857, reporting further proceedings of the Assembly up to the 18th December 1856, App. p. 459-,|C4. Copy of further despatch, dated 24 February 1857, reporting further proceedinga of the Legislature up to 24th February 1857, App. p. 4(54-466. See also Cameron, Mr, Chancellor . Compensaliuii. Doniilns, James. Fur Trade, 10. Langford, Cavtain. Military Force. I'liget Sound Agricultural Company. Spiritual:'' Liquors, .'>. Vegetable Products. Various vegetable products of the country which mit^ht be advan- tageously imported into this coc itry, Islnster 6088-6090. Vvgetaliles. Facility for growing vegetables in some parts of ihe tcrrito'^y, T'efmy 182. .!4tJ. Voyageurs. There are about 500 voyiigeurs in the Company's service. Sir G, Simpson 987 The Indian servants employed as voyageurs, &c.. are paid merely for the trip, it). 1055 At the christianised Indian settlement at Red Pviver, the Indians are prin- cipally voyageurs, Caldwell 5580. V w. Wages. The wages of the servants or labourers of the Company vary from 20/- to 40/. a-_vear. Sir G, Simpson 1259, 1260 Good wages received by the Indians in the service of the whites ; how paid, Sir J. Richardson 2936-2941. Western Const. Examination as (o the extent to which liind on the western coast is suitable for cultivation and settlement, Sir G. Simpson 728-736. 761-771. 2058-2113 Rugfjed and mountainous character of the Compiiny's territory west of the Rocky Mouniains, ib. 728-736.761-771 Impediment to settlement west of tlicUocky Moun- tains, in const quence of the warlike character of the Indians, ih. 2064-2068 Charac- ter of the country west of the Rocky Mountains, that is from Fort Colville, up the Culuiiibia River, and towards the Arrow Lake, A/i7es 4668-4672. See also Climate. Reeky Mountains. Thumpsuu's Ricer. Vancouver's Island, 18. Whale Fishcric.1. See Fisheries. Wheat. .' ] nature should olonial 66 6»$*- Island i 1856, actions )atcheB e fore- f 1856, ng tlie of 4th libiy is jortinK 'ess oil of the pp. p. \ of the ng8 of James. Sound idvan- >. •J4»J- mpsoH e tri|), prm- \ 40/. 1) the nst is -2113 iocky xoun~ laiac- p the uver's w HE YOR 5)47 Rpport, 1857 — coulinued. Wheat. In Home fuvoiirable pjiircs wheat uiny be prown up to the ,-,8th pnrnllel of liititude, Sir J. RkhordsoH Q8f)8 The vvhcni nt Red River ripened in 90 days from sowing, and was the finest witness ever saw, Crofton 3203, 3204. See also Colonimtion ami Settlement., 1 , 2. Wiltinmi, Oovenior. Statemtnt to the effect that Governor Williams was very successful in farming at Cumberland House, and that he was removed thence by the Company in consequence of his anxiety to promote cultivation, Kinj; 5704-,57i4. 5722-57-24. 573;^, 5734- WinnipiS, Lake. Lake Winnipeg is oi)cn for navigation from May till about the end nf October, Lefroi/ '^85, 28G -The only outfall of Lake Winnipeg is by Nelson River into Hudson's Bay, Sir G. Simj)son 974-976- Winnipeg, River. The land bordering on the River Winnipeg is not Rt for cultivation, Sir J. liichardton 3009. York Factory. Wheat cannot be grown at York, liae 437 At York Factory the soil is nuriiumcnily i'rc/en a little below ihe surface, Sir G. Simpson 746, 747 IJnsuitable- iiess of the soil at Tort Yoik fur cultivation. Sir Geo. Hack 3502-3505 Bleak appear- ance of me country about York, Herd 4649, 4050.