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Tous les autres exemplaires originaux sont film6s en commenpant par la premidre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'illustration et en terminant par la dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbole ^^> signifie "A SUiVRE", le symbole V signifie "FIN ". Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre filmds d des taux de reduction diffdrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul clichd, il est filmd d partir de Tangle sup^rieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas. en prenant le nombre d'images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 1 2 3 4 5 6 I ^ 42 Victoria. /2^ Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKBH BirOBl THB SELECT COMMrriEE OF THE SENATE AFFUINTKD TO IMVtCIIIi INTO ALL MATTERS RELATING TO THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY AND — TELEO R APH WEST OF LAKE SUPERIOR. jprinlJia bg %xi^\ of i\\ ^Jinat({. :, jN'' '■ OTTAWA: PRINTED BY MACLEAN, ROGER k 00 , WELLINGTON STREET. 1819. .!;:• ^ ■\\*x H^ \0 ur \%'\'^ MAR ib \m -12 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY AND TELEGRAPH. MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Tub Senate, Committek Room, Monday, 31st AJarcli, 1879. Commiltoo inoL this day, and — Mr. Maucus Smith, C.K., boing called and sworn, -.v.is oxaminod as follows :— Hy the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. You ui-o the acting Chief Knginocr of the Pacific Railway ?— Yes ; and I hava been HO for the last two years or nioio. Q. The Committee desires to get information from you as to the cost of the rail- way, t*o far as it has been constructed, IVom Lake Superior westward. The first section beginning at Fort William or the Kaministiquia, is known as contract No. hi ?— Yes. . ^ ^ , Q. What is the extent of that work ?— When those contracts were lot I had nothing to do with the work on tiiis side of the Rocky Mountains ; all I know about that is""from the documents on which the contract was lot, and from having visited the works since. Q, How far does contract No. 1.3 extend from Fort William ?— The contract No. 13 originally extended from Fort William on Lake Superior, to Shebandowan, a distance of forty-live miles. During the progress of the work, or soon after the work v/as commenced, there was a diversion made from the located lino, from a point called Sunshine Creek, .S2 ^ miles from Fort William. The contractors had the option of stopping at that point without finishing the 45 miles. They elected to stop at that point, so that 32J miles ends the contract. Q. Why was the line changed ?— I only know from what 1 havo heard about it, Hiid from what I have read in the olBco. It was understood, I believe, when the lino was taken to Shebandowan.the water communication was to have boon used through the chain of lakes, b}' what is known as the Dawson route. Subsequently, after the contract had been lot, a survey was made further north, crossing the Winnipeg River at the outlet of Lake of the Woods, not using those waters at all. Q. The rail route was then adopted? — Yes. Q. That was the cause of the change ? — Yes. By the Honor able Mr. McLelan: — Q. What WHS the date of that change?— I have not got it hero, but if you will billow mo to make a note of it I will supply it from the office. By the Honorable Mr. Maqiherson :— Q. Were the works let for a lump sum, or on quantities?— They wore lot on what is called a detail system, on a. schedule of quantities of each class of work, and price rates put to those — the contractor to bo paid by measurements according to the qu- utities executed. Q. Wis the country thoroughly explored and the lino carefully surveyed boforo the quantities wore schodulod and the contract was let? — I had no charge of that work and I can only speak from what I have seen. It would appear from tho profiles that it had not been thoroughly surveyed ; that the contracts, in fact, wore lot on the rough trial survey. I know that fact from the contractors' claim having been submitted to mo, and all these facts were elicited in evidence, — that immo- di»toly after tho contract waa lot, they began tho location of tho lino; the lino was not located whoa tho contract was let, and the works were not executed on the Una on which the contract was taken. 1—1 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 18t9 Q. What wiis the ostimatod cost according to this pohodule? — The ostimafo of tho cost IVom Kt»it William to Shcbiindowan was $iQ6,VJi. That was for tho 45 TIlilOH. Q. How many miles wore built on that lino ?— About 32^ miles. il. What would have been the propoilionato cost lor that? — Assuming that the character of tho works was something similar, which I bolievo it was, it would bo in iho proportion of 32J to 45. Working out tho ilom by proportion, tho cost to Sun- shine Creek, 32^- miles, would have been .129:J,3r»0. (•i. 1 see by Mr. Fleming's report that the approximalo Oitiinato was $270,7!)6, What amount was expended upon tho work at tho date of tho latot return? — 8,i31,l>7y.51. By the Honorable Mr. Penny: — (.}. Is that upon this now lino? — That is from Fort William to Sunshine Crook, 32^ miles. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : - Q. Are tho works completed? — Yes. I may state that that sum includes an award that was made to tho contractors beyond tho ostimato by measurement. Thoy m«ulo Bome claims which were submitted to me last siimraor for delays and changes, and I awarded a certain amount; I do not romember exactly how much, but some ten or twelve thousand dollars. I have included it in this, so that it ia tho total cost of that section. Q. And they have no further claim ? — No. Q. How do you account for the increased cost of $60,000 ?— There are only two ways of accounting for it. Either the original quantities must have been wrong, or the measurements returned for tho contractor must have been wrong. There is no other way of accounting for it. Q. Have you brought the schedule of quantities as estimated, and the quantities returned as having been executed ? — Yes. (The papers produced and fyled aj» Exhibit A. ) Q. In what items are the chief increases? — I think it is chiefly in earthwork. It is difficult to say, at a glance, how it occurred, for the schedule was for 45 miles, and the work executed was only 32J miles. I would have to work it out in proportion. But I know the increase is principally in earthwork anil something in rock work. Q. How much did the cost exceed tho estimate ?— The ditferenco would be 801,183. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall: — Q. What was tho cost per j'ard for tho e.Kcavation of earthwork ?— It was paid according to tender, 23 cents per yard. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Is the iion included in this contract?— No. This only includes tho grading. I might have continued my answer a little more fully. There must have either been an error in the original quantities, or an error in the quantities returned for the con- tractor. It was my duty to enquire strictly into that, not considering tho claim of tho contractor. I wont over the amount, and I questioned the engineers in charge very closely. I had, previously to that, given thom written instructions, tables and other forms and chocks, so as to ensure, if possible, accurate returns. I camo to tho conclusion, on that occasion at least, that tho returns have boon pretty nearly correct. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Keturns made for tho contractor ? — Yos. On enquiry into tho difference in quantities, I find that the original quantities had been taken profile. That was only on a trial lino, without cross-sections, and, of cour any information as to the depths of the swamps and wet places thoy had to cross, believe the error was principally in the original quantities; at the same time F can be positive that the returns are correct. cost of the out on tho course, without I not A. 1819 ostimufo of as for tho 45 ing that tlio ; would 1)0 in cost to Sun- ■ii3 $270,706, >t return ? — sliino Crock, 1 includoM an jinent. Thoy md changes, ;h, but Homo ,ho total cost are only two jn wrong, or There U no iio quantities and fyled aj^ irthwox'k. It 15 miles, and 1 proportion, ock work. CO would be •It was paid the grading. either been 1 fur the con- tho claim of rs in charge s, tablo.i and [ came to tlio rctty nearly I cost of tiie in out on tho urse, without 1 to cross. I time I cannot 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. Could the quantities have boon ascertained at till williont, eross-soctions having been taken ? — Thoy could not. An approximate rotinn, even, could not bavo been made. Q. Could roturn.s be obtained now ?— They conM bo ajj^roximately a«;crtamed. Tho only places where it would be dirtloult would bo in Hw:im])y grouml, wliero the embankment may liave sunk down, and where tb.o ditches may have i)artiaily ciosid in or widened, (J. Do you consider the prices placed on tho Hovcval items in this contract arc consistent and roa^•onable? — Yes. I think in this contract they ap;'oar to me to bo consisieiit. The prices wore altogether rather low ; but that docs not matter ; they are consistent. There has been no attempt to gain an advantage by putting a high price on one, and a low price onjanother portion of the work. Q. What is tho rate for earthwork?— Twenty-threo cents per cubic yard ; solid rock, $1.25, and for loo.se rock, 50 cents. These are very reasonaile jirices. Clearing, $20 per acre; close cutting, $40 ; grubbing, $00. Q. What is tho width of the embankment to bo according to spccitication ? — Seventeen or eighteen foot. I have not got tho specification just now. Mr. Flemiag has it anong his papers, and I thought ho was coming over here to-day, Q. vV as that the width at the formation level?— Yes. Before the ballast wa.«j laid on. Q. Were the embankments executed to that width ?— They were executed to that width, but I found, in walking over the line, there had not been sufficient allow- ance for shrinkage and subsidence, and the embankments are rather narrower than that. Q. What width are thoy ?— I 'should not think thoy average over 14 or 15 feet ; that is, at any considerable height. In low embankments, of course, there would not be the same shrinkage. Q. If they had been constructed to the full width, how much more would tho earth excavation have been increased ? — I have not made the calculation. We would have to take cross-sections for that over the whole line, as the embankments vary in width. Some places there might be tho full width and in others they would not bo over 14 feet, I have found from experience that a shrinkage takes place of from 10 to 25 per cent on clay ground, according to tuo nature of tho clay, and in swampy ground, where tho nature of tho soil is spongy— something like peat — there is from 20 to ICO por cent, shrinkage of material. That is to say, an embankment of 100 yards consolidated, would take, in some places, 200 yards from tho ditch to make it. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — q. IIow are tho contractors paid. Are they paid from tho measurement as they leave tho work, or are they paid for tho measurement after the shrinkage ?— They are paid for it as taken from the cuttings. That of course, includes tho large measurements. . f By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Have you tho means of ascertaining ap])roximatoly how much the excavation would have been increased had tho embankments been made tho regular width ? — No ; measurements would have to be made all over the line ; I could not do it from the profile. , «k Q. Could yon not ascertain it approximately ?- If we could agree as to the breadth of tho embankment wo might. Tho height of the embankmentis about right. It has been kept up ; I had returns made about two years ago, when I issued instruc- tions as to the n anner in which tho books wore to bo kept, so as to have all returns at the completion of the section, and to have new plana and new profiles made ot all tho works, ar d new plans ol structures; in fact, a complete set of plans ol tho works as executdd, to be sent to the head office at Ottawa, for registering. We have received those plans of that section. 3 ;.■..-'- -■ It ,-,» ,.-,. 4.1V. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1819 By the Honorable Sir. Penny : — (J. 1 UHkcd you wliollior tho cotitniclora woro pniti npcordini; to tlio work done bof'to Iho hhii iiiUiigo takes pliico aiid you said '■ Yen "? — Tho nu'ii>uromcntH aro made I'rom iho cutlingH, whether in lino ciitlingH or in nido ditchcw, Q. What I wunt to a^k you is thit<: biipponin^ the bank to l..>, as you say, f.>urtcon ■or fifteon leot now iriHtcaJ ofs* ventecn or eighteen i'oot, im it ought to Lo, it wouhi ni»t loMow from tiiut that tho contractors had hetn paid too mui'.i?- No; it would not folkjw from tliat fact, but still it makes tho discrepancy between tho original quantities and tho linal estimates 80 much nioro. It is no fault of tho con- tractors that tho banks aro not t-ufticieiilly wido. It is tho want of attention on tho ])iiil of tho engineer wiio was in charge, that the banks were not made up to a hutticiont width to allow for tho shriidiago. By the Iloncrable Mr. Scott : — (J. Jn one of those swamps or muskeg", how long docs tho shrinkage go on ? — There aro two causes — Hub.^idenco and shrinkage — they operate both tho tamo way; it dojjcnds on tho depth of tlio swamp how long it continues. If j'oii have a deep ^wanlp and a heavy embankment, it may go on for years; but wo have nothing like a moi-ass in that tection. it is simply soft ground, with peat of a spongy nature on ilio Mirfaco. Of course when tho ombankmont is made of that material it contains a large i)cr cenlago of water, ai.d if that water dries out, tho bank sinks down by tho The weigiit of tho material. Q. There is one answer mado as to what tho contractor was entitled to, you Tspokoas though ho got the largest bulk ? — Yes, ho has, Q. llo does not get the full figure on the estimates as they go on?— Tho work is measured according to specification which directs how tho contractors aro to bo paid. They aro to bo paid b}' tho measuroment of tho place from which tho malorial is oxcavated, not from the embankment. Secondly, they got tho largest amount in case of shrinkage. In rock cuttings 100 yards of rock cutting will make more than 100 yards of embankment, bocauso tho stone does not lie so closely together alter it is separated. But tlio contractor is paid in all cases by thomoasureniontof tho place from which the material is excavated. By the Honorable xUr. Christie: — Q. Have these embankments been added to since tho completion of tho work by tho contractors in tho first instance? — I havo given directions in some cases to add 1') them. Ill other cases 1 have directed ballast to be added, instead of widening tho embankment with earth. Q. What dilt'orence did that make as to Iho original quantities? — It did not alter the quantities of earth but it altered the quantity of ballast. Tho reason I did (his was the embankment was of a peaty natuie in some parts, and it was on firo in sumc places. I had the whole of the embankment covered with gravel in order to jnovent it being consumed. Q. Has that added to the cost of tho"ombankmont itsolf? What proportion has that added to tho cost as compared with tho original estimate? — It comes in, in tho other contract. Contract 13 was simply for bridging and grading up to formation lovol. The ballasting was included in contract 25, the next contract to it. There was not very much of this done. Those banks were in some places very low, perhaps .11 couple of feet, and as they wore on fire they had to be ballasted. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. In section 13 tho earthwork is given at 23 cents, and in section 25 tho ballast- tog is 38 cents a yard ? — It is thirtj'-eight cents. Q. Then, there is a difforcnco in widening tho embankment from 13 to 1*7 feet 4)y ballast instead of earth? — There was very little of it done on section 13. The difference between ballasting on that section, andPurcolI&Kyan's work was between 33 cents for earth and 38 cents for ballast,, a difference of five centtj. A. 1879 lio work done ncnts nro made 11 say, fxirtcon ) bo, it would ui'.i? - No; it ■ between the It of tho con- cnlion on tho iiailo up to a ifTQ go on ? — bo tamo way ; have a deep a nothing like n^'y nature on .1 it contains a down by tho titled to, you '—Tho work ia arc to bo paid, ho material is est amount in ike more than ;othor alter it )ntof tho place of the work by 3 cases to add f widening tho s?— It did not reason I did was on fire in •el in order to proportion has mcs in, in tho p to formation : to it. There ry low, perhapB a25thobullast- 13 to 17 feet ction 13. Tho rk was botweeu 42 Victoria. Appendix (Xo. 1.) A. 187i^ Q. But tho contractors for section 13 should have filled np to 17 foot. Yon nay that they did not do so, but that tho contractors for section 25 are doing their work at 38 cents?— There was very little of hoct ion 13 dono thai way. Tho banks wore not ordered to be witlor than 13 feet by ballasting. liotore they cumo under my con- trol section 13 was finishe I cannot an.swer that without having the profile before mo. Q. I only wanted you to recall what I understood you to say before, thai iri consequence of the work not having been properly surveyed in the first instance,, the actual qu intity of earth that was removed, turned out to be very much more than was estimated. The question 1 want to ask is this : supposing that the precise (luan- tities had been estimated beforehand, would the work havo cost tiwy less than it actually has cost? — I do not know; it depends upon which side tlio mistake has occurred. By the Honorable Mr. Macphrrson : — Q. I understand Mr. Penny's question to bo this: if the estimated quantities had been as great as the quantity actually executed, would not tho cost of the work been what it is?— If the work returned is measured correctly, it did not matter what the original estimates were, but there is the ditficulty.. 'By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Has the public lost anything by this mistake, supposing tho true quantities wore returned?— If we assume the returned quantities are correct, the public havo lost nothing. Q. Has there been a final measurement of th;> section ?— Yes ; this is a hnal Daeasuremont. By the. Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Who laid out the line ?— I do not know who made tho surveys of tho first line. They were under the direction of the late .Mr. llazlewood, and it came to my knowledge in settling the contractor's claim that tho first estimates were based on a trial line ; that the line was not locate 1 f )r construction at tho time of the letiinpendix (No. 1.) A. 187!) By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Ih the Commiltoo to utulorHUiiid that tho work was actually lot boforo there was liny accurate information obtained with respect to the nroI)ahle coj^t ? — Uortainly; and 1 may cxphiin that tlioro is a considcM'abio deviation Irom tlio original lino, and the reason of that was, tint tho chanfjo of location improved tho lino, and very much improved tho quantities (so it was alloyed by Mr. liazlewood), and 1 believe it did, as J have been over both linos my.soif. The new lino is a great improvemont on tho original lino. Blili, tho quantities aro in excess of tho estimates, and it nwiUcs it more inexplicable. liy the llonorahlc Mr. McLchin: — (i. Then you beiiovo on the orii^inal lino Iho (juuMtilics would have boon very iinicii in excess of what they now are? — Yerf. Jiij the Jfonorahlc Mr. 8'-ott : — (I. Was it Mr. llaziewoud who laid down tho im|)rovoJ line ? — It was done under his directions. Mr. McLennan actually looalod the line ; he was liie next otiicer to Mr. llazlowood. liy tlic lluuoratdc Mr. Christie : — Q. Did I understand you to say, boforo Kitting tho contract, tho lino was not loc;itod ? — Yos; there were no cross sections, aiii no borings wore made. fiy the Honorable Mr. Scott: — Q. Is it a matter of very much importance, whoro work is lot out at so muchpor yai-d, that tho exact quantities should bo known ? — It is of importance. (.}. Are yo'i equally as particular as in letting work in bulk? — Wo have no chock on those measurements unless tho estimator are properly made beforehand. I cannot say now, whether tho contractors have been yovy much overpaid, or whether th« original estimates h.ive been over estimated. Q. You have got really to depend altogether upon the engineer who takes th« moasuremonts under any circur tancos? — If the measurements are made correctly, and with great care, boloro tho ontracts aro let they ai*e made disinterestedly, and there can bo no collusion between engineers and contractors, because no contractors exist. Then, afterwards, those measurements are a check upon the work as executed after it is given out to contract. (J. What proportion of this line deviated from the original location ? — There is hai-dly any of it exactly on tho original location, though they are very near to each other; but the larger portion is a new line. Q. Have j'ou been over it yourself? — I have. t^. Wore you over tho first lino? — I was over a considerable portion of it. 1 went over it in settling up tho contractois' claims. They made a claim that the work on the new line was of a ditleront nature— that there was more swamp, and they were further from the means of communication. I had to examine a largo portion of the line in order to see in what the ditt'erence consisted. Tho new lino is shorter, with better gradients and less quantities. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — (i. What is the approximate cost of the delays the contractors claim for ? — ^There were seven claims. Claim 1 is for fares of men from Sarnia to the landing, and for boarding those men, 83,142. That claim was for boarding and men's wages while idle, and fares for new men to supply tho places of those who loft. Q. Is that what wo may put down as the cost of delays ? — Y'es. By the Honornb'.c Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Did 1 understand that that claim urose in consequence of the contract being let buforo the survey was made, and before it was ready to bo lot to the contractors ? — Yos ; they proved that, because I awarded part of their claim ; I wont thoroughly into tho matter and awarded them what I thought was due. 6 A. 1879 boforo thoro ? — Uorlainly ; iniil lino, and id vory much olicvo it did, otnont on iho it muUci) it Loeii vory asdono under loxt otfleor to lino was not tttio inucbpor have no chock ind. I cannot • whether the ffho takos the ade correctly, jrostediy, and contractors 'k as exocutod n ?— There i« near to each tion of it. 1 that tho work mp, and they rgo portion of no i» shorter, 1 for ?— There iding, and for s wages while ontract being I contractors ? nt thoroughly 4'J Victoria. Appendix (Noi I.) A. 1879 By the Ilonorable Mr. McLelan .— U Were the rock cuttings made to tho full width, according to fpccifica ion ?- " ''t ^\!-o yoirir/'idoa of tho quantities required to make this embankment up to thelfll ei'L^?-S^ ..uvo been no cio.s Hoctic.ns of the embankment.^ n.ado ; inie are full width, and some are not over 14 feet. 15ut I du r^ «;; «;-;7;\",^\^ be i.ut on them, as I thought they were secure enough, and I did not wi«li to patch "'' ' Q ZScenUis a low price for earth, and you cannot got then, up for less than that i-Theiewa a great dilHcuUy in gelling earih at all in sumep aces the coun abounds in low swanl]> and peat ; you have to go for miles in order to get sound eaitli '"Tr\Vhoso fault is it that tho embankment, v, -re not Hufflciently made up ?- There is a reason given in the report I made to tho ' rovornmont that tins earth is ot so Hpo. gey a naturo'that it would take at least two yards of such materia to '"ak« one yK'Zmbankment. which, although tl.,- , ntraoL ^^^^^r^^^'^l^;;;^ ^Z to 42 cents per yard. Instead of doing thai I recommon led the (jos oi nraeiit to maUe uv the dctictoncy with ballast on the score of economy. By the Ilonorable Mr. Scott :— . .„ ♦i.,. O Was thoro a considerable reduction made in the cnb work subsequent to the origilosUmar?-In giving my evidence befo.o the Pub ic Accounts Commj^^^^ee^ 1 Htitod that 1 believed that there are a number of items thi^t have been ro^"^o". ttmouS^^ii^toatotarofabout*.^^ that had been in th. original bill ot ™ tha^ mLotboenoxecutod.' This makes the discrepancy the r'-«;;°™ii;\tve O K the crib work had been reduced, would not the earth work naturally have been Lioa^d'-NoT^ first line ran along tho river side in sortie places, and tho cr bwmkwartopioect the embankment irom freshets. But the line was taken away furtirfrom'^he river and the reduction of crib work would not necessarily increase tho eai-th work in that case. Bu the Ilonorable Mr. Macpherson .— O Tho crib work was not necessary when tho lino was removed from the river r -No that is the cius^of those quantities of crib work having been reduced. The ii^^s A'plbl-^Wois was alarmed about the ;"-roVa7oo't SS. the Hazlewood had told him that there would be a reduction of ^''Pf <^?„7/rf '"p„2 noVv line, and from this. I suppose, thoro must have been a mistake in tho o.ig.nal "''''a Vut'th^Sase on tho whole was $GU83, instead of a decrease ?-Yes. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan.— . . . ., r„^„,.nmnnt Q. I understood you to say that Mr. Uazlewood reprose^nted to t^o C,«vernment that the change of location would make a saving ot about «bO,000 .'-The.e would bo « Hftvinir and 1 have no doubt it would bo near that amount. n^..t.. O^itn actual working it exceeded $lil,000, so that tho original estimate »o„Ubo il"^? ()00?-Yes tl e% must have been something very wrong in the origi- Tale IhLlo I took eroVy mea^s to ascertain from the measurements of the returns mld^fo, the coVtractors. ^I could not, of course. ^^ ^^y^^^^l^Zt but I believe there was no intention to bv incorrect ; that tho cngincois who mauo them werejione^unen .,,,,,, .oeating engineer ?-I would not like to .peak of anothL'r mai^ exp^rienee^ I know ho hud been a good while on the Inter- colonial Railway. V. 42 Victoria. Appendix (N^o. 1 ) A. 187^ Contract No. 25. By the Honorable Mr, Macpherson : — Q. This nontract oxtonds from Sunsbino Crook to English Rivor, and ennbraees grading and bridging for a distance of 80 miles ? — Yes ; the same contract also em- braces the track laying and ballasting from Fort William to English Rivor, a distance of 112i miles. By the Honorable Mr. Fenny : — Q. I wish to ask you if the track laying has boon accomplished ? —Nearly ; within ten or twelve miles. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan :— Q. Have you the date of the contract ?— The contractors are Purcell & liyan, and I think the date of the contract in Mr. Fleming's report is correct, Juno 7, 187C. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Was the country through which contract No. 25 extends, thoroughly surveyed and the lino properly located before tho contract was let ? — No ; it does not appear to have been so, at least tho line has boon deviated very considerably since tho con- tract was let. Q. Who located this part of the line ?— It was located under tho direction of the late Mr. Hazlowood, who was tho District Biiginoer, and I boliovo his assistant, Mr. McLennan, located a considerable portion of it. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Do we understand what you call locating, the trial survey or tho final sur- rey ?— Tho fiual survey. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Were there cross-sections takon so as to ascertain what the quantities wore ? —Not in tho original survey. 1 had that information from Mr. McLon nan, who is hero. Q. There scorns to bo a great ditforenco in the quantities between tho scho lulosi and the work executed ?— Tho solid rock excavation in tho original schodulo is 2(iO,00() cubic yards; the quantity taken out was 7(>,f^00 cubic yards; loose rock, original «[uantity, li),000 yards, quantity takon out 110,000 yards ; earth excavation, original quantity, 1,000,000 yards, quantity taken out 1,970,000 yards. There was a groat variation in all tho quantities. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. I would like to know whether Ihoro was a profile at tho time the contract was given out?— Yes; this is tho profile (profile produced), that was exhibited to the contractors. Q. Who prepared this profile ?— It was prepared under tho directions of Mr, llazlowood. Q. Does it profess to bo prepr.reJ from actual measurements, or is it all imagin- ary ?— It is to bo presumed that it is takon from a survey. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. If that were shown to you as a profile, and you were told that vou were to lease a tender upon it, you would assume that it was actually measured?— Yes; 1 have endeavored to make every enquiry to ascertain tho cause of the discrepancy, and how tho original profile was made. Mr. McLennan tolls mo that part of it was from a trial lino, and part of it from a projected line between two trial linos. By ike Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. When Jiis profile was prepared in tho Department, was there not a manu- ecript report sent in with it ? Did not the engineer return it with a letter of some- kind, setting forth what he had done ?— I do not know that ho did. The profile was made in tho office at Ottawa. (J. It was made from the original field notes ?— I suppose so. 8 A. 187^ and embraces tract also om- or, a diKi,anc« 1 ? -Nearly ; rcell & liyan, Judo 7, 187C. ;hly survoyod B8 not appear lioco the cori- •ection of Iho assistant, Mr. the final nnr- ntitics wore ? snnan, who in tho scholulosi ulo is 2(iO,00(> rock, original ition, original wa:^ a great > the contract hibited to the jctions of Ml'. it all imagin- t vou were to rod?— Yes i 1 discrepancy, part of it was inos. not a manu- 3tter of 80 mo- he profile was 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. un Q Were they Mr. llazlewood's field notes ?— I do not know ; I had nothing at all to do with the work at the time it was let; I wns engaged at the time on the other side of tho Rocky Mountains. You had bettor call Mr. McLonan vyho conducted tho surveys, and knows more about it than I do. You will observe that the red .no on tho profile which shows tho formation level, is very near tho surface hne It is too low. as there is no part of tho lino constructed so near tho surface as that. It is, in part, a swiimpy country, wd the lino is far too low for construction. It is evident in tho face of th.t profile, that tho quantities must have been too smal . I do not know who laid them down at all. They wore under the direction of Mr. llazlewood. If it bad been done under ray directions, I would have laid down the formation lino at a higher level. Bu the Honorable Mr. Fenntf :— , , .i. » Q. Supposing that, knowing nothing about tho country, you had seen that pro- file, would you say, on the face of it, that it is an erroneous profile ?-No ; what 1 am speaking ot' now is from practical knowledge; I have no reason to doubt at all that tho profile has been made from notes. The engineer who was in charge of the surveys, has told me that there wore surveys made right through. Q What I want to get at is this : Supposing you were the gentleman engaged in tho Department, and I employed an engineer, and that engineer brings me a pro- file like the one before us, would T, with any competent knowledge of my business. bo presumed to know, on looking at it, that it wjis an erroneous profile?— No, cer- tainly not. Tho remark I hdve made as to the formation .lino being too low, tho quantities taken from this profile would also be low. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherhon :— Q. What price is charged hero for solid rock ?— 81.50 per yard. Q. And for loose rock ?— Ninety cents. ,„..*' (J. And for earth ?— Thirty-three cents for the earth in lino, and thiity-tivo ocut.-« for earth taken from the ditches. ,, o » i- , .^ (1..^. O. Are the rates of these items proportionate and reasonable ?— According to tho experience we have with a number of tno contractors, they do not appsar to bo very eonsistont. In other words, tho price of solid rock would yield little, it any, prohi , it would be as much as they could do, to do it for that money. Tho prico for earth at thirty-three cents is very high, and would yield a largo profit. The price for looso rock, ninety cents, is also rather high. It consists either of stones or large boulders. b. Wliat size is calculated for looso rock ?-Tho loose rock was princ.pa ly boulders. In tho specification louso ro«k was i)laccd up to forty feet; but idrew Mr. Fleming's attention to it that it was very large, as forty cubic feet ot rock could not. be removed without blasting. , . i t *u ,^ti „.. Q. IIow do those ten.lers compare with tho prices of the contracts lot the ol e. day on tho same road ?-Marks' tender is on the s:ime sort of country, and I'urcell & Eyan's contract joins. 1 havo not got Marks' tender with mo, but it is what 1 call anything at all but a consistent tender. By the Honorable Mr. Penny :— , ., , o vr Q. Perhaps Mr. Smith would have no objection to tell us what he knows of Mi . llazlewood's previous services ?-All that 1 know of Mr. llazlewood is, he was a Dis trict engineer on the Intercolonial Iluilway. Bu the Honorable Mr. Scott ;— , „ .. „ t i *i t Q. What was his reputation on tho Intercolonial Railway ?— I do not know. 1 never heard anything against him, except about Section 6. There was a good deal or discussion about it. Bu the Honorable Mr. Fenny: — , . , t> i i O Was Mr. IlazlewooJ, from his position on tho Intercolonial Railway such a person as would naturally be Bclected for the work he was employed upon hero ^— llo was in tho same position on the Intercolonial that I was. vraniwdMi-iMiiaiMBiifBiie^eu' 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 Q. Was it promotion, to begin with ? — Ho was promoted by Mr. Fleming to that district, and Mr. llowan to the other. There is one thing which I can speak of, without lieing invidious to anybody. On the Intercolonial Railroad I was in the same position as Mr. llazlowood, and hero I have had charge of thiswoi-k on the Pacific Kailroad iis Acting Chief Engineer for two years. It was my duty to sec and enquire iato Ihe conduct, ability and attention of eveiy offieor on the lino. Q. Then you occupied the same pof^ilion on the Intercolonial llailway as Mr. Ilazlewood did ? — Yes. (J. So that there was nothing unnatural in Mr. Ilazlcwood taking the position I'M (he Pacific Iliiilway that he did? — No; and there is one thing 1 ma}' remark : This is a dillercnt thing from the Intercolonial. On the Intercolonial it was possible tor a Chief Engineer to have some pers-onal supervision over the whole line, as it was onl}' lour or five hundred miles in length. The Pacific liailway is two thousand miles in length from Lake Superior to the Pacific, and it is utterly impossible for one man to give personal supervision over all that, so that the district engineers that are selected, ouglit to bo men of \Qvy high standing and of very largo experience. Their office, in fact, is fully as important as that of Chief Engineer, because the Chief Engineer has to depend entirely upon what is reported to him by those officoi's. Hi/ the. Jfinorable Mr. Macpherson ; — Q. What was the estimated cost of the work upon the Schedule upon which Section 25 was based?— $1,037,061. (I. What amount was paid up to the date of the latest return ? — $1,310,206. il- What was the date of the latest loturn ? — November iiOth. (I. What do 3'ou estimate it will cost to finish the work ? — It is estimated that 474,4:59 will complete it. Q. So that the total cost of the work is estimated at? — At $1,384,645. il. Being an increase over the estimated amount of how much ? — I mako it $347,584. By the Honor ablelMr. Scott : — Q. In forming tlie estimate of the rock and earth, we should have the original tender? — I understand that this section stands in a different position from the other, inasmuch as the contractors have not yet been settled with. The quantities have l)een so unsatisfactory, that no settlomeat could be made with the contractors until it is enquired into, to try and find out the cause of the discrepancy. By the Honorable Mr. Christie: — Q. You are not aware of the cause yet? — No; wo cannot tell as measurements liave not been made. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Have you any reason to believe the measurements have been inaccurate ? — I have some reason to believe that the original quantities were erroneous. The ])rofile was, I understaiid, made in the head office here by assistants, without any knowledge of the ground. Some of the surveys were made in frosty weather by the engineers when tho ground was hard, so that they did not know the nature of it. I am very anxious not to speak of any of my colleagues unjustly, but I have had reason to complain. I pointed out the nature of this work, and I complained to Mr. llazlewood ami his assistants that they had not in some cases given the personal supervision to the work that they ought to have done. I wrote him a letter in- structing him that every piece of work that was done, the Division Engineer must have supervision of it, and tho return of quantities must not only be his, but ho must go along with each assistant in making final measurements and return them, not only with his own certificate, but that of his assistants. 1 found that there had not been that supervision I have been accustomed to give to my own work. Mr. Ilazlcwood had been in poor health for the last two j'oars previous to his death, and that may have accounted for it. It was tho same way with Mr. I'owan's district at the other crd of tho line. 10 A. 1879 ng to that •f, without le position Kail road quiro iato \y as Ml'. position ,' remark : 18 possible , as it was thousand odsiblo for nccrs that spcrionce. cause the io officorB. wn which ),206. nated that I make it 10 original the other, Litics have )rs until it suremonLs curate ? — (ous. The Lhout any her by the •e of it. I have had ned to Mr. e personal n, letter in- ineor must lis, but ho urn them, there had ork. Mr. death, and district at 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. Have the contractors put in any claim not in the schedule ?-No, they have put ill a claim for the drawback of ten per cent, reserved on each month s certihcato. 'Thcr have been paid a considerable portion of it ; but tbcro is still a balance of somo $50 000 of the drawback, payment of which has boon rotused, until tho discrepancy between tho original estimate of quantities and tho last returns is invcs igatcd . O Have thov not put in a claim for a large amount of something that docs not ^" ■• • .'..."-. - -. l'^.-.i -^ There was no claim made to annear in the schedule at all?- 1 have not heard so. Sup to the time of Mr. Fleming's return in November. S.nco his return it may have boon made without my knowledge, as when he returned from Lngiand he, ofoour.se, took my position. r,ij the Honorable Mr. McLelan: — q. I notice that the length of ihc line has not increased ?-Nu, not at alL () But I see the ballasting of it exceeds the estimate by nearly 8 tJ.UJO, liow is that ?-Tlierc was more ballast put in the road than was originally estimated. It ^yas itimaled that the embankment would bo fully formed ; that a ter being eonsohda ed So "would be the full si.e, ar,d it was estimated to puton halt^bal ast -'l; «"«-'' "^'« rails. In some cases the embankment had shrunk and we had o raise it w ih bal ast in oho -cases the tull ballast has been put on instead of half ballast The bridges and culverts were all put on tho full height, whereas the ballast tha was est mated to bo put on in the contract di-l not rai.se the rails to within some eight inches of that heighMo that in coming to bridges we have put in tho fjil bal last. Where tho ui- con rac^^^^^^^ ballasting included both tho.se sections. It will apply principally to boct on ^-J- Jhore is only of place in Section 13 that I oi-dered tho banks to be widened by Purcel & Evan bTt they had to put more ballast on to bring the rail up to the proper level. ^"i.Th-U Estimate ^of 80,000 yards to widen the embankment is "1>1> '- - 3' ^^^ Section 25 ?-Yes, chiefly to that section. I will explain, however, 1'"'^ "f « the contractors for Section 13 had completed the -ork, there wa. still some subsidence ("oing on in tho embankments. Q But j-ou estimated that wholly on 25?— 1 OS. . q. How many yards for uiat?-Kighty thousand. , .. . ,.-,. on^ ..„,.j.? q. That, properly, should bo added to the earth work-lo the 1,./. 0,000 jaids . ^'''^i.lW would" bo more co^ e.u-thwork ?-It would depend «„ where they U.ok it from. It i. put down at ballast price in accordance with the ,.«..,«J*L 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 rocommcndution I mudo to tho Govornmont, that thouarh tho ballast had to bo hauled 10 or 12 miles, and tho ratea wore higher, the quantity required vould bo so much less that it would bo more oconoinioal. Q. Then, by ailding that to the earthwork alrca-ly done, it would make the total 2,070,t>C0 ?— Yo.s, about that. By the JTonorable Mr. Christie : — Q. What would bo tho difTorenco in cost between baIlaHtinf» and finishing with earthwork? — It would require 50 per cent, more of clay than of ballast to make up Iho embankments, and I recommended the ballast. Jiy the Honorable Mr. McLeJan : — Q. In that charge of 80,000 yards for widening tho embankment, how much of it belonged to Section 25?— I think, it would nearly all belong to Section '25. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — (.}. That Hhould bo added to the 1,970,000 yards of earth ?— Yes. Q. Were tho omhankmonts as wide as they should bo under tho specification ? — After they were consolidated they were not. The additional work would bring the total of earth up to 2,133,702 yards. I will give you tho quantities. There arc 1,970,000 yards returned as executed ; .widening of banks, which ought to have been added .o that, 83,102 yards ; still to bo done, 80,600 yards. These thrco quan- tities added together will bo the total ol earthwork when tho embankments are com' plotcd. • By the ITonorable Mr. Scott : — Q, Was ballasting included in that contract ?- -Yes. By tlie TTunorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Tho estimated quantity of ballast was 180,000 yards. There bas boon 198,898 yards executed. Then there is a further quantity estimated as required U> bo executed of 100,2^7 yards? — Yes, that makes a total of 299,1 1'5 yards, lean account for pome of that excess. Some of it w.os for muking up embankments on Section 13, where they had subsided. Jiy the ITonorable Mr. Scctt : — Q. It is not all on Section 25? — No; tho contract for ballasting covers both ttoctions. A small portion of that excess is duo to Section 13, and tho other part is duo to Section 2.i. It occurs generally from tho embankments having subsided and having to bo made up Willi ballast, and in other cair the increase in ballasting, but I cannot account for tho increase ot earth. Q. What was tho character of the ground on Section 13 ? — There was some poat ground— not a largo proportion— and some rock. On Section 2.i there was a larger proportion of muskeg or morrass. Q. What was the character of tho earih excavation ?— Some of it was clay, Homo of it of a sandy nature, some rock and some boulders — nothing specially difficult about it. w 42 Victoria. Appendix (Xo. 1.) A. 1870 The Sknatb Committee Pkwm, Thumlay, 3rd April, ISTO. Srction 14. Mr. Marcus Smith rocalloil and fuithor examined. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. 1 Keo by tlio bchodulo for Sociioii I It lliat tlial contraci extondH from Cross Lake to Selkirk, on Iho Hod Hivor, 77 niile.s ?— Yes. (i. What wa.s tlio ('o.st of tlio work, accordinj^ to (ho crttimato on whicli tlio cotilract was based ?— $4»)2,'J,')0. Q. What was the cost of tl.o work oxcciited up to the dale of the latest returns .' — S6.58,£4n. (i. What was the date of that return ?—2Mli February, 187:). C^. What amount is ostimalod as bein<: neeo.-^sary to complete the work ?— $1)3,285 ; The total cost of the work will be S723,134. (l Is the Committee to understand you to say that the work, according to tha echedulo on which the contract w.-ia based was to cost $402,950, while the actual cost of completing it will be $723,134 ?— Yes. (i. How do you account Ibr the increase ?— I can account for some of it — for the portion whore it joins Mr. Whitehead's contract, the gradient of Section 14 had to be raised to meet the gradient on Mr. Whitehead's contract, which was much higher. Contract 14 was let before Section 13, and it stopped at Cross Lake ; coneo- qiiently the gradient was laid down up to that point, but after Section 15 was let, it was found that wo could not get down to that point with a good gradient, so wo had to lift the gradient of 14, in order to meet that of 15. It made the embankment con- hi-lerably higher for probably a mile back. It made a large difference, as it raised tha height of some embankments to 50 teet. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — (J. You had to make an artilicial incline?— Yes; and that made the embank- ment very high, and throw the lino into some heavy roek cutting j^that increased tha ciist, as we had to change the localiou. Ry (he Hcmorablc Mr. Macpherson . — Q. Was not the country surveyed boforo the contract was lot?— I do not know that there had been a survey, right through from lUi I'ortago to lied Kiver bofora Iho contract was let. I cannot answer that question positively. (J. The raising of the grade at the junction of the contracts would only account I'or a small portion of the increased cost ?— I do not suppose it raiKlo a ditforenco ot , over twenty or thirty thousand dollars. (J*. If the line had been ])roporly surveyed, there would have been no break ot <,bat kind ?— If the country had been thoroughly suiA'oycd before that, there would have been no break. The survey was imperfect ; a rough proU ^luary survey. Q. What was the quantity of solid rock work in that con^utit, according to the original estimate ? — 10,000 yards. (i. How much has been executed 'f — 34 442 yards. l^. What was the original estimate for loose rock? — 3,000 yards. (i. How much has been exicuted ? — 3h',720 yards. Q. What was the original estimate for earth excavation ?-The original estimate Tor earth was one million yards, tj|. How much has been oxecuto ^ p «*. . Q. Can you give an idea of the cause of tho increase of cost?— I have no tacts to- show the cause, but I can give my opinion. By the Honorable Mr. Penny:— Q The whole of the increasoJ cost, with trifling exceptions, is to bo found in these items?— I do not know from actual measurement tho cost of the increased quantities, but if you will allow me to give an opinion I behove the original qnan- ides wer^ far too low ; that they were estimated in the office at Ottawa without due allowance being made for subsidence and shrinkage. There is a great deal of swamp ground in that section. It is worse than what we cal muskeg, m which you can nut down a pole for over 20 feet or more, in some places. If the quantities were simply tAkeii from the profile, it is quite evident that the embankment would not bo more than two feet high, but tho embankment went down several feet in the soft mud, and it required a great deal more earth to cross such places than what appears from the profile. I may tell you.that I questioned Mr. f «^''"/,b?» V ^A ''Jin'? IpT tho quantities were exceeding the estiiiates so much. I asked him to account for it. lie told me he did not get out tho original quantities himself. I said you have charge of tho district though, lie said " Yes, but this matter was taken out of ^y h^imb. and the quantities wore prepared by somebody else" It is quite evident that the person who got out the quantities was not acquainted with the surveys, and had no knowledire of tho ground. That is the only way I can account for the discrepancies. Q. lfapropo?survoy had been made by an experienced engineer, wmild any such disei™;y as this have arisen ?-I^ot so great; in difficult places hko tha , there will bo always some discrepancy in tho measurements, but nothing like that. In that kind of country it is not possible for any engineer to xnako so close an approximation to tho true quantities as ho would where the ground is more solid , bu still, an experienced engineer who has had work to do under sum ar circum- stances, would bo able to make a close approximation ; there would not be anything like tho discrepancy that exists here. , „ ,r -.. • u* i Q His estimate might have exceodcd tho work executed ?-^os it might have oxcoodod the actual amount; I may say that the estimates for tho last contracts I superintended myself, and I hiui to make such a large allowance for subsidence and shrinka-o, and tho work will probable bo done for loss than the estimate. On going over Contract If I made every inquiry to try and arrive at tho cause of the discrep- ancy in quantities. The work was nearly completed and the contractors had to bo settled with, I was very a...aous to find out the cause of this increase and see that no mproper returns of work were made. After all the inquiry I could make, I camo t") the conclusion that the engineers engaged on that section had made their moabure- 14 A. 187» to ?— That ilimato for imato wa» lineal t'tiot ist imato of 3.J. railway ; k iho rock y. It wa« not consid- : think the lako much no facta to- 30 found in B increased »inal quan- vithoul due ,1 of swamp ]i you can ititios were uid not bo in the soft lat appears when I saw !Ountfor it. lavo charge my hands, nt that the ind had no icrepancios. would nny like that, like that, o close an aoro solid ; ar circum- )0 anything night have contracts I lidonco and On going the dincrep- rs had to bo [ see that no ko, I camo eir measure- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1870 ments honestly and with great care; that they woro correct, and that the cause of the increase was the imperfect surveys bofore the contract was lot. Bif Ihe Honorable Mr. Cornwall : — (i. Is it a fact that tiie surveys woro mado at a timo when tho ground wan covered with snow?— So Mr. Howan says, and if tint wore tho ca-io, ho wonitl not bo able to distinguish niuskogs from solid earth. Jh/ the IlonoraUe Mr. Macpherson : — . , > Q. Should there not havo been platforms or corduroy put in thc.io sotl places .— In discussing that question with Mr. Jtowan, I said when you saw that tho-e eni- bankmcnts were swallowing up so much more earth than was originally estimated, why did you not think of suggesting some means by which tho subsidence could bo arrostpcl. lie said ho Avas carrying out tho original plan, and that tho deepening ol the oti'-tako ditches would bo sufticient under the circumstances, i replied that 1 would have corduroyed it with timber. By the Honorable Mr. Scott .— Q. What size of timber?— .\ny kind of timber from si.x inches upwards. In tbo lato contracts that wore let, I have put in a very large quantity of this platform ot round timber, and I believe a very great saving in cost will bo effected by it. I know for every dollar spent on platform work, there may be a saving cf three dollars in earthwork. Of course, Mr. Kowan could not undertake to alter the plans of the works of his own accord, although ho has charge of tho district, but ho had only to make a report, and present a plan of it to tho Chief Engineer and receive his approval. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne :— Q. lie did suggest a plan in one instance, in the case of the Jnlius Muskeg, between Station 1,838 and Station 2,069. He suggested the draining of that muskeg, which was done ?— Yes; and these deep ditches have largely increased the earth ex- cavation ; but if hehadputin coi-duroy work ho would have largely decreased it. That drainage has worked some good for the country, however ; it has drained the land on each side of the Enilway. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Please tell us how Selkirk came to bo fixed for the railway crossing at Led River ? — I cannot say ; I had nothing to do with it. Q. Do you know if tho survey was commenced at Selkirk and extended cast- ward, or was it commenced at Rat Portage and extended westward ?— I do not know the way the survey was mado, except from tho numbers of the stations on tho pro- tiles. My impression is, that there was a rough trial line run through from Kat Portase to Selkirk, but tho contract was lot on tho west .end, before it was at tho east. „ Q. Was the contract lot on Section 14 before tho survey was completed on teoc- tion 15 ?— Y'es, except the rough preliminary survey. As far as I can make out, there was a preliminary survey made from lisit Portage to Red River. Section 1-4 is tho western portion of that survey, and the contract was lot on tho preliminary sur- vey before the location survey was mado for Section 15. Q. Do you know anything of the country west of Rod River where the lino is located ?— I have not been very much on tho lino, but I have made a groat many enquiries about it, from the different engineers who made tho surveys. Q. Were the surveys mado in tho winter time ?— I believe so. It is u very low country with a groat deal of wet ground. Q. Is there is a great deal of muskeg ?— According to the explanations given to mo, the muskegs are not very deep in that direction ; still it is a muskeg country. By the Honorable Mr. Carroll : — iVralssion of tho Committee is allowed to ask the following questions :— 16 1' ). ''I I'- ll. Ik aM>fr.»f«sn^v««c4uiAftt>-- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No 1.) A. 1879 I II «■ ! 1 •■ Q. You havo been askod if tlio survoyn wore ma*t hiw been fifty per cent. ? — Yes. (i. is thie usual in tho construction of railways? — No; itsometimos happens, but I slmiild not like to be tho engineer that it happened with. It onglit to go much closer than this to the ostimuto. Q. Is it an exceptional case? — Yes; in fact, we made estimates on tho Intercol- onial Etui way that wore absolutely binding, and had to be carried out, and in most cases, the quantities executed were under the estimate. h'y the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Is it not .•? fact, that where surveys are properly made, there should bo little or no (iiHerenco l> 'tween tho estimate and tho amount executed? — Phero should be very little diticreneo. By the II 'UorableMr. Penny : — Q. A kuowK-.incM>f the country would not change this? — If the contractors had a fair bill of works before them, thoy might have made considerbblo ditforonce in their prices. The Senate Committee Room, Tuesday, 1st April, ISIl*. (Junuiiittcc met this day. Section No. 15. Mr. Marcus Smith recalled and examined. -. liy the Hononihle Mr. Macpherson : — (J. Is that the sclir lule of work on Section 15, showing tho estimates on which the contract was based .'' (schedule produced and fylod as Kxhibit C) — Yes, these are the original quantities tin which the contract was based; and the second column gives the amounts execuifd. t^. What was the amount on which the contract was based ?—$ 1 ,594,085. (i. To what extent li.is the work boon executed? — Work has been executed to the amount of $1,279,97-'. Q. What amount is e.'Li mated as necessary to complete the work? — $1,245,027. Q. Making the total ( nt of the work how much ?— $2,525,000. Q. How macb more than the original estimate is that? — I make it $930,915. Q How do you accoiiit for the great increase of cost? — By a change in tho character of the wgrks. As the contract was let, a large quantity of trestle work was to be nsed instead of ombankments, to cross ravines and depressions in the ground. li A. 1879 )n thun wlint rv uncorUiiii )u thoy woro t; 1 immodi- ro, uud they water. i informaliun 1 very iaHufli- clont infonn- iro made, but 08. lOH biippotlrl, t to go IlllUtll the Intoi'col- , and ill inoKt ould bo little re Hhould be itrautora had ditforonce in )0M, I'il, 187*A es on which [^os, theae are cond column 4,085. executed to —« 1,245,027. $930,915. lange in the trestle work siong in the ) 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 there No, (}. Ts that trestle work described in the schedule? — Yes; the details of it arc Q. Woio new tondern invited wlien this ijreat chiuige took placo in the work ?— o I understand that the 8360,000 referred to in that letter was to be gained work, by the expenditure of $2tjO,000 on earth work ? — It would read that By the Honorable Mr. Penny :■ (l Do on trosLio *"vt»ii\» uv viiw u*kL»v/i«'^*»'M» V w» -^if— »*«, v-vfu w.« -v........ ■. V. .« . .- .,-,...„ . ~. — _.. — way, but I suppose the substitution of earth work for trestle work would be that mucli more. By the Honorable Mr. Maepherson : — (l Do you know what further action took place upon this?— When I got that letter 1 instructed them U> go on with the work accordingly, as I presumed it had been ap))roved by the Government. Q. When were you there? — 1 was there in August, last year. I walked over the line. (I. Did you tind they were going on under this change? — Yes; thoy were. (l iJo you know what action took place in Ottawa in the Department of Public Works ? — I do not know at all. (.1. Surely a change involving such a large amount would not be maile on the stroke of the pen of the Engineer alone?— I had no instructions from the Department when I left there. 1 was not even informe- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 187» to wlufh if miihonry \» ud.led, it will niuko $25H,500. I may hIsiIo, li..wevoi-, tluiL wlion 1 (lisciisM'd llic intiller witli iiini, I lomul oul timt thin ostinmto did not covor Ihc whole thinj,'; that thon> hud boon chuiigOH in the gnulionls- tho gnidioiils had been lowored, which mudo a ;,'reat dual nioiu rock cutting. Q. What was the objoci, ol'loworing llio j,'railientH ?— It wiw to miuco ilio (tost ol'croHhihK ravineHumldeejxIoprosHioiirt an niiudi as niiich um iMH.-ible, and to got material and more nearly balaneo tho quantities of cxcivvation and einl)aid00,OOU ; but tho practical ollect wa-, to increu^o tho rock work and icduce tho earth work ho much more. Q. You mean the Irowtlo work ?— No, tho earth work— u snuill incrouHO in rock work, but u very largo decreaho in earth work. Mr. Rowan liiw not apparently lakoii that into account in hi« oMtimuto of the ditl'orence of tost, because we find lliat intead of there being only $258,000 extra cost, it has inciciihcd to $9;t0,000. By the Honorable Mr. Scott :— „ r i i t). Do you jipprovo of tho change as being a wise and prudent one ?— It (ieponcl* upon which way you view it. There is no doubt it makes a better railway, but it will cost more. .... . .• Q. But, taking all tho circumsti.ncoH into consideration, do you concur m tnii view Mr. Fleming oxproHsoH in that letter?— >Jot at the time it was written. If ho hu(i written that before tho contract was lot ui all, I would. c 1..1 • • O. Take tho circumstances as they were— putting youi>olf in Mr. HemingH place— recollecting that tho oxporienco of the past (ew yeai^ Hid proved that biish tires are much more frequent in that country than there w reason to anticii)ato, and rocollectinir, alho, that this railway is to be a mnmiu it national structure, would yon concur in tho view of Mr. Fleming, or would you be disposed to take any other course?—! have not given it sufflcient consideration to say what I should do. It depends upon tho policy of tho Government. There are two ways of getting a railway through a country like that: one is to const, net a permanent road with permanent works that would take a long time to complete, and tho other is to run a road through as (juickly as possible with temporary worlcs, to bo substituted with permanent works subsequently. , . ,, „• ., o Q. I submit the subject for your opinion, llow would you advii- ■ the Minister f Would you advise him to go on and construct that road with trestle work ?— I have not given tho subject sufficient consideration. Q. That is evading tho question?— ft is not evading the (luostion. 1 would not have advised under the circumstances, and I will give vou tho reason ; It is not of the same character as the works on the rest of tho railway. If I had advised it I would have advised a now contract to be lot. 6 How could you take it out of Mr. Whitehead's hands if ho was willing to go on with the work and the change was required ?— This is a very radical change. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorm :— . t, , , 1 • Q Was not the contract for bridges on tho Intercolonial Railway changed— iron and stone substituted tor wood?— Yes, tho bridges were changed from wood to iron; but the abutments were ot stone in tho original designs. Wo had all this information before the contract was let for the trestle work and it was changed on tho recom- inendation of Mr. Whitehead. By the Honorable Mr. Scott ;— . „ r . , , u Q. Mr. Wtiitehead does not recommend, he simply proposes it?— I withdraw tho word " recommendation" and say the change was made on the "proposition" of the contractor. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson :— , ^ , . a Q. How do you account for the difference between Mr. Eowan s estimate ana the estimate that i6 now made of the cost of completing tho work— $030,000?— The onlv way that I can account lor it is the change of gradients. Tho gradients had ' ^ 20 A. 187» wovor, tliuL I nol covnr idiuiils liml goL aixl li> iknioiit ipour to be ■I l<> iiu'rcjino iiHO in lock •otitly tiilcoii I lull "ill-toad -If (lopoivU way. but it near in thii Lluii. If lie r. Flominf^H l that inish aiiti('i|)atu, ,1 Kli'uctiiro, lo take any '. should do. if goltin/jj a road with r m to run a itutcd with 10 Minister? k?— I have 1 would not ; It is not of advinud it I ivilling to go change. angcd — iron rood to iron; i information n the recom- vithdraw the lition" of the estimate and 0,000?— The :radieDtu hud 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 l)eon lowered, and it roducod the cont of the ombankmonts but inoroiiHoil the co.it of rock work, ilicrofore Mr. Rowan's report may bo fair as far us it goes, but it does not include ihf whole oftso. Q. Should Mr. Rowan have forseon that in making his oslimate i"— llo ought to have scon it, of course. When a man makes an estimate for such u change as that he should take every circumstance inio consideration. O. Did those changes you speak of necessarily follow the other changoH that ■wore recommondod ?— I think so. It brought tho balance of cuttings and erabank- ments more nearly together by lowering the formation level. , , . x. U. Should Mr. Rowan have forsoen that the additional cost involved in the changes which he proposod, would amount to $030,000 instead of the |2«0,000 that ho reported to tho Chief Engineer?— It depends upon what data thoso changes wore made. Tho changes of grade may have boon made before ho prepared his estimate, and bis report may not have included thoni. I know so little about tho change that I cannot say. te- head proposed to fill some of them up with earth and not make any charge for the extra haul. By the Honorable Mr. Haythome:— Q. Tho lowering of tho grades was a subsequent operation altogether ?— It was found he had material enough to fill up those breaks, but to explain the necessity for lowering the grades, is an engineering question that would take some time to go into. Q. Was the lowering of the gradients a subsequont operation, independent ot tho substitution of earth embankments for trestle work ?— I don't know ; I doubt whether thoro was sufficiont material to fill up the spaces without it. Although the lowering of tho gradients increased the rock- cuttings considerably, it made a large decrease in tho earth work, and brought the balance nearer. For instance, by in- creasing the rock cutting five yai-ds at $2.50 per yai-d would be 1 2.78. If you could decrease the oarth work fifty yards by doing that it would be economy to lower tho grade, as the increase in rock cutting would not amount to so much as the decrease in earth work. But with trestle work it would make very little difforence, as it does not spread out at tho bottom like earth. J By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. What J understand you .o say is this:— That the grade was lowered, and it Increasedthorook work slightly?— Yes, it increased the rock work slightly, bat largely decreased the earth work, so that it was advisable to change tho grade, Q. But it would not have been advisable to change the grade if the trestle work had been carried out ? — I think not. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. I see that both the earth work and rock cuttings have greatly increased over the estimate ? — ^Yes. 21 IM 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1B19 By the Honorable Mr. Scott: — Q. But the incroaae caused by the substitution of earth work for trestle work more than exceeds the diminution of earth woi k in embankments caused by change of grade, so that the gross amount of earth work is greater than was estimated ? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. MacpJiersoti : — Q. The original estimate was: 300,000 yards of rock work, the quantity exeo * 3d up to the 25tb February was 342,376; of loose rock the original estimate waa 30,u00 yards; quantity executed 52,500 yards. The oiiginal estimate of earth work was only 80,000 yai-ds and the quantity excavated up to 28th February was 224,206 yards — nearly three times the amount estimated. You will see that both rock work, loosd rock, and earth work have all increased ? — I think I can see where the diflBculty arises. When 1 speak of the lowering the gradients increasing the rock work and decreasing the earth work, it means that it would affect the new estimate for solid embankments in that way, but as compared with the estimate on which the contract was let, there would be a great increase in rock and earth . It was found that the grades as they stood then— made for trestle work — would have an enormous excess of earth, and it would be more economical to lower the grade on the new plan of doing the work — in other words the grade for solid work would have to be lower than the grade for trestle work. Q. Is the report which you have produced, from Mr. Rowan, the only report in the Department recommending the change ? — That is all I know of in the office. Q. Are the Committee to understand that this report, representing an increased cost of $260,000, is all that had been made to the Department, while the actual increased cost is now estimated at one million dollars in round figures? — It is all I know ot. These are all the documents that I have seen relating to the affair. Q. Did I understand you to say that there was not sufficient timber in the country to carry out the trestle work on speculation ? — Not of the right kind. Q. Had they not surveyed the country previous to the letting of the contract ? — Yes. Q. Sliould thoy not have known what timber was available ? — Yes ; Mr. Oarre„ assistttnt engineer on the contract told me he had reported to Mr. Eowan verbally that there was not sufficient timber of the right quality. He reported the nature of the timber — he did not say it was suitable or not, it was for Mr, Rowan to judge. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Was that before or after the letting of the contract ? — It was before. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. The red line is the new one, I suppose ? — It is the one on which the work i» being constructed now. I maj' say with regard to this estimate of $2,525,000 to ftomplete the road, that it was made last summer. When I was out there last Sei> tember, 1 instructed Mr. Rowan to make a very close estimate of the works executed,. and required to finish at the end of the year, and to have that report sent to rao here by the first of February. That report has not yet arrivvi. Secondly, this estimate may be closed only approximate. It may bo over or under. As the works advance further we may be able to estimate closer. Q. Is that estimate made up here in the office ? — From recoi-ds at the Winnijjcg office. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Tiiis was made simply for the purpose of paying the contractor ? — No ; it was made last year, I expected a later report of that which would approximate more closely, so that any ditference could be accounted for. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Where do you say that the estimate showing an increase of a million dollars was prepared ? — I do not know where thi? .sheet was actually prepared, but it was mude up from information supplied by Mr. Rowan, 22 li»-IS£<. A. 1879 V trestle work ed by change e»timated ? — ititv exec • 'id ite -was 30,u00 irth work was 224,206 yards ck work, loose ifficulty arises, ind decreasing^ embankmenlA was let, there rrades as they : earth, nnd it the work — in the grade for )nly report in the office. r an increased Ifl the actual ?— It is all I affair, in the country e eontract ? — i; Mr. Carre, !)wan verbally the nature of to judge. ifore. li the work i» «2, 525,000 to here last Sep- orks executed^ mt to rao here this estimate vorks advance the Winnipeg ? — No ; it was oximate more million dollars ed, but it was r 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. I undei-stood you to say that Mr. Rowan had prepared that estimate, and I want to know whether I was correct?— I suppose it was Mr. Rowan who furnished alt the information to prepare it. By the Honorable Mr. Scott :— , .. , Q. There is one question that 1 would like to ask with respect to the depression of the road bed. Does it improve the road ? -It makes no difference. Q. Is it not an improvement to the road ?— No. „ mi. i Q Surely taking out the rise must be an improvement ?— The grades are so little changed that, in some places, it will slightly increase the gradient, and at others will decrease it. At one place there is a slight advantage gained. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson :— Q. What is the grade ?— About twenty to twenty-two feet per mile where this change was made. I may say that, in making those chanties, care was taken that we should not make the road any worse than it was, but I do not know whether it improved it much. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. You have more cuttings and less embankments ?— Yes. Q In winter, is not that an ir,i ii-y ?— It is a rock cutting, and, for snow, 1 sup- pose it is worse. In a cutting t?,uc is four feet deep, if yon lower it to eight or ten feet it makes very little diff Jiencc so far as snow is concerned. Q lin^ the longer it is, the more of it you will have ?— Of course, it is not so good to |...ve a cutting long or deep. It is an improvement to a lino to keep »» "®*r the suit.'uo :is possible; so that, in answer to your question, I may say it is a disad- vantage in that respect. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson :— , ,p ., Q. What is the length of this section ?— Thirty-six and a-half miles. By the Honorable Mr. Scott :— ^ ,, , *u Q Wiien i« it to be finished ?— I cannot answer that. I walked over the wbole'of th'it contract with Mr. Whitehead last August. We discnssea every point and the time it would take to finish it. I must say that I never met a man with more one i-y than Mr. Whitehead; but contractors very often overrate what they canMo, u\^\ see no reason for saying that the contract will bo finished sooner than a year beyond thi contract time. ,* '^«- ' By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson :— ^ ... , ..... q. >Yiil the change prolong the time or shorten it ?— It will prolong it at least* ^* 'V) Do you think the rates placed upon the various items of work consistent and rea.somiblo in that contract? -I do not think so from my oxpericnco. Q Wherein are they not so ? In some items the rates are very hii^h, and others are so low that they will hardly pay for the material. The rate for timber will hardly pay for getting it out of the woods. , i- « 6 In vtiiat did the principal increases occur ?— In rock and earth cliiofly. Q. VVhal is the rate for rock ?— The rock is 82.'75 per cubic yard, solid rock. Q. And lor loose rock ?—$ 1.75 per cubic yard. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — ... n •* Q. What is the character of the rock ?— I do not know what geologists call it. It is granitic or gneissoid. . , i t* • „ii Q. It is not stratified ?— Except so far as the gneiss is conceined. It is all chryetalline rock; igneous rock I think they call it By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson .— , . i How much is the earthwork ?— Thirty-sovon cents per cubic yard. Q What do you say about timber ?— The timber was always considered low. We discussed the matter amongst us a good deal. Square timber 16x12, 33 cents j)er foot running; 15X12, 30 cents. . K *«^.«j5.--:-sfr..>:. r7-(»-j>-iMfc^'^r4-#t,;- m 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. What would you hare considered a fair price for it? — In the adjoining contract (No. 14), made at the same time, or nearly so, it was 60 cents ; and for this the timber is more easily got. I will just read from ALr. Whitehead's contract : " Timber, 16x12, 33 cents per foot run." On the next contract adjoining the same sized timber is 60 cents ; then 15X12, 30 cents; and 15X9| 30 cents. I have no corresponding sizes on the next contract; but here is 12x12, 30 cents, contract No. 15, and 40 cents on contract 14. It is in the large timber th / the prices differ much. By the Honorable Mr, Macpherson : — Q. What is the rate for rock, contract 14 ? — $2. Q. What is Mr. Whitehead's ?— His is $2.75. It was lot some time before 15. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — ■ • • . Q. Was not Whitehead's more difficult to get at ? — It is more removed from the river, although the rock work on contract 14 was as difficult to get at. They could not get horses over the swampy ground, and had to take their supplies on men's backs. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. What is the price for loose rock on contract 14 ? — $1.00. Q. And on contract 15 ? — $1.76. Q. What is the earth ? — The earth on contract 15, is 37 cents ; on contract 14, it is 26 cents. Ihat is a large difference. By tlie Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Then all the prices in contract 15 seem to be very much higher than in con- ti^ct 14 ? — Yes, except tl e timber. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Is it in the articles on which the higher rates are placed that the increase has taken place ? — The increase is principally on rock and earth, and on those the rates are very high. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Are those prices unusual on contracts in this country ? — ^This part of Ontario diffei"8 very much from that part of the country. Kock is done from one dollar to a dollar and a quarter per yard in this country, and it is generally limestone or other stratified rock ; but in that part of the country there is not only a different kind of rock to bo taken into consideration, ' ut the expense of getting in supplies. By the Honorable Mr. Scotr .- — Q. You have to make o lailroad to iret to it? — ^No; but yon have to pay high for gettinfr in freight. The way Mr. Whitehead got in his supplies was in summer time from Winnipeg by the Dawson Route to North-West Angle, about 110 miles, and thence by (bteamboat to Rat Portage; in winter time they had a shorter route with sleii'hs. Q. What arc Mr. Whitehead's prices for rock ?— $2.75. Q. And earth ? — 37 cents. Q. A large number of the tenders seem to bo in that neighbourhood? — I never flaw any of the tenders at all. I had nothing to do with the work until after it waw let. Allow me to answer the question more fully about the tenders being inconsistent. They were inconsistent in more ways than one : for instance, some of those fondern wore very high for rock ami earth, and on timber very low. But while he had $2.75 for open rock cutting, he had only $2 per cubic yard for tunnel work which is worth four or five times as much as the other — say nine dollars a cubic yard. By the Honorable Mr. Hay t home : — Q. Was the stone of the same character in both cases ? — Yes. By tlie Honorable Mr. Scott :— Q. What size were the tunnels ? — They varied from six to twenty feet. 94 A. 1879 le adjoining and for this 1*8 contract: ig the same I have no contract No. differ much. ae before 15. ved from the They could es on men's ontract 14, it than in con> the increase >n those the rt of Ontario 3 dollar to a ;one or other orent kind of es. to pay liigh i in eummor it 110 miles, shorter route id? — 7 never after it wan incone latent, hose T.enderK he had $2.75 hich is worth 'eet. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 O How much do you say they tendered for?-Two dollars per cubic yard; that is th?iine tunneling on tL i^-ilway. There are also tunnels for streams; instead of luiidlJg culverts thV c^t tunnels through the rock to let the streams through. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan .— . . „ ^ • u j „„t Q. Has all the line tunneling been executed ?-No; it is not^allfin.Bh^^^ Theriare about a hundred feet to finish. If you look at M.^ Whitehead ^^J ^er you will find it is different from this. No man knows better tha . Mi. Whitebeaa that this was a thoroughly inconsistent tender. B y the Honorable M: Scott:— .m Q. Was this Charleton's tender ?-No ; it was Sutlon & Thompson s. Q. 1 see in the other ninteen tenders that the average ?"««/«;. *"?"*^^^^^^^ s about three dollars a yard ?-The difficulty of nconsistent tenders is JJ'^^^^J''^® i',*^ s price on a certain item very high, and there is a small set lower tenders fo7«™"!;°^f 3,000,000 feet of earth, or 1,000,000 feet ?-It depends a good .^jj »" ^^^^ "^he con the section. In a flat section like No. 14, it wou\d make no d'ff«'-«"'=« Jj *''^,^°°. tractor; it is the same sort of work throughout, and requires only Jig t jlant^. but ink^oction like this, heavy machinery is requjred-locomot.ves .u,d j^eam shovels. In fact, Mr. Whitehead says he will have four locomotives at ^ork. Uav^ng gone to an expense like that, he can do a large quantity at acheaper i^^o than a small mianMtv bccnw.e the oxpenso of the plant is spread over a larger ^"'^"♦'Jy "^.^l*'^^- Q. Then, the contractor would regulate his price according to the ciicum stances? — Yes. .■,„•> v,-.,-v WUoXv Q. And would be likoiy to tender lower for a larger quantity '-^^7 ''7'^;^^. Q. Ha« the trestle work been taken out of the other sections, 14 and jB ''" ^o » it hns been p.it in. Compared with this section the quantity is small. It was all pui iu that, aH originally estimated. , x>- • ti.„f «i.»af1n Q. I .uppo.c you know something as to the policy of putting in that trestle work?-Yo .^ It Jvas the policy of th« Government not to get a ,ti.Ht class railway Uke tne Intercolonial (which is a very solid, well-buiit road probably tbe be f o" he continent) but a road which would cost less per mile and, if possible, to get oai lier communication with the North-West. . , ., . . • „„f 49 itr fnr Q. Suppose you had railway communication with that country is not »--7ojor rock ind accents lor earth an excessive price ?-You could do earthwork at a ^-reat deal lcs« cost, but you could not do rockwork for much less, because the cost is m drilling and blasting, and not in long hauling. .,.»-^o «.. „ottinortion to the trestle work on thin. It is, however, all trestle work in the other sections; there is no masonry. By the Honorable Mr. Christie : — Q. How long does trestle work last generally ?— It is estimated to last about ten years — good trestle work. Some lasts longer, and some, a shorter time than that. To give you an instance of how it sometimes lasts I may state that there was trestle work put over the Ocsjardins Canal, near Hamilton. I was associate chief engineer of that road in 1854. That trestle work was only done away with five or six years ago, so that it actually lasted about twcntj' yoars; but it was verj' fine trestle work. Q. But the average life of trestle work is ton yeai*s? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. What is the timber up there ? — Principally spruce and tamarack. There is not much white pine for the larger sized timb«r required. The contractors for sec- tion 14 imported their larger timber from Minnesota. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Is ihore anything allowed for hauling timber ? — The s|Micification contem- plated that there would be timber in the locality, that is one of the causes of dispute that arose. The specitication sajs it is to be made of the most suitable timber found in the neighbourhood. Q. What 1 wjint to come to is this: Whether the contractor, if he hud to go a distance for the timber, would have to be paid extra for it? — Ho would not be paid for hauling whether there was timber on the spot or whether it would have to bo brought from u (ii>tiinco. Bji the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. If the timber had been there I suppose it would have been used, !ind the ravines coiiM liuvo boon filled up with einbaukmout by the time the tro»ilo-work had decayed ? — Yo»<, of course it could be done cheaper if the trostle-work wns up. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. But you would have to pay twice over for the building of the roa 1 ? — Yes, and in some cases it would be cheaper after all. That is the way the Union and Central Pacilic liailroads woic built. The trestle-work was put up, subsoiiucntly to be re- placed with pornuinont embankment. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan: — Q. I sec M. Rowan mukes his calculations on filling this up at 28 cents a yai^ ? — Yes, ho thinks it can be done at that rate; nine cents less than the coiitniot price. Q. Section 14 is at 23 cents? — Yos. Q. And otif of the now contracts is lot at 25 cents ?— Yes. Q. I should imagine that under the changed circumst.incos of baving iho rail- way, 28 cents is an excessive price, taking these two as a guide ?— It doponds upon the hauling. There is an average haul of six or eight miles, un-. h^ fnft, ovorything •was known to the engineers, as far as I could find out. When I found out that the change wav^rr,ir,g to DO made, I made enquiries, and ascertained tluit tb»>y know everything about it. A. 1879 work if the engiii,ier, I tie work on igh, there is trestle work a8t about ten 16 than that, e wa3 trestle liof engineer or six years ti'cstle work. k. There is tors lor sec- ition contom- o» of dispnto timlior found e hill] to go a cl not be paid id have to be iscd, and the ^lle-wurk had us up. l?_Yett, and I and Central nily to l)e ro- ■ents a yard ? ontraot price. ,ving the rail- depends upon over facilities ss than a cent ! panic danger 't, ovo'y thing 1 out that the !i( \h>'\' know 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 (). That was not a new reason at all ?— It was not. (1 The propo.sition here in making the change was to fill itup withearthwo k? _Jt is to be tillid up partly with earth and partly with rock. There are quite a number ofHmalllakeH to cross, and earth embankments of coui-se, would not stand in them. Some of them had from ten to twenty-five feet d^op ot water. It is pro- iwsed to make a narrow rock embankment six feet wide on top at each side up to the level of the water and fill with earth between . . , „ .„..♦!, fiiiinc g Mr. Rowan's estimate of the cost of the change is based uiion earth hllmg. lie sfivs in his letter: Cost of completing the banks with earth instead of res e- ^ork. 1J550,000; deduct trestle-work, $362,000 eavmg the 'n«reased cost «1 8,000. Mr Wiiitehead, in his letter, says 1,443,281 cubic yards of earth would cost S5-0,000 ^mber and culverts would bring it up to $620,000; trestle-work taken away, KoO, 'caving a balance of $258,000. So that Mr Rowan's estimate «««T., f^.. ^^^ based al ogether on making the fillings of earth ?-It may apP««'- ^o^here but that w^ not his intention. His Intention was to make these rock embankments. They are sketched at the end of his report. , „ , Q Mr. Rowan bases his calculation altogether upon filling it up with earth ?-lt appears so from that statement you have read. I presume he thought he wou d get Sghmckoutofthe cutting to make those embankments It has t»'n«l ""/ however, that he has had to Borrow some. I know that Mr. Rowan proposed to do '' %"VoXi ? w- Iii?ecting attention to is this : Is Mr. Rowan's estimate based upon tilling the embankments all with earth?- Yes, with thejedge ot tho slope j.ro- tected by rock ^^^^^ .^Howance for any i-ock in this letter which I have shown to vou?-IIe has made none; but I know it was his attention to make rock embank- inonts, -•Old, consequently, he must have assumed that tho rock coming out of the ciittini's would be sufficient. ... , . <>*u„4 f Ihit his calculations are all based on earth, while in the work a part of that is put in as rock at $2.75 a yard ?-Yes, but that would go into the embankment, *°^a-''Hc bases his calculations on one and a quarter millions of;^(ml.ic yards of earth at thirty-seven cents a yard, to make up the embankments. Then "'f ";«" » dS hn the earth part is^eing done with rock at 82.75 a yard ?-\es, l.ut tha rock isimid ivv. It is taken out of the cuttings, and instead oi malm.g the full eSankmcr t up with rock and letting it go as far as the quantity woul. ex <>"' ; Jo Ses them dilide it. and make two lower embankments at the side, and puts earth in between. Bu the Honorable Mr. Scott : — q. It does not add to the cost ?-It does not add to the quantity of rock, iinlesH there is not sufficient rock in the cuttings to make the embankments. When I went over tl c"e I "md that they had not sufficient information to make an appioximate estimate The water is 10 to 26 feet deep, and the depth of the mud they ^»on t know except by sounding with a pole. I found, in some places, these protection ombankmen'ts were sinkin|doAvn very much-that it was taking more rock to ao- t"t them than the enginclr had expected from the soundings made by »^ pule, and I immediately sent to Ottawa to have' a set of boring tools sent out, so that they could juHcertain what was required. _^ By the Honorable JMr.Macpherson:— ,,..,« u o v«a - Q. Was it after the change was made that yon disc«^«'-«<^.*^'^*T^,;f ^^'''y ;~^^^^ I discovered that, last autumn when I was going over the work. Bu t le «>«"««'» had been on the ground for three years, and all these things fought to have been •'** QlslhlTnl^SSon for lowering the gr«Ie, to obtain a^Jdi^-nal rock fo^- th^^^^^ lings ?-It was inore to obtain earth. Barely sufficient earth could be found at all. fillings ■Jt**iaW?VV!*«^» ;»'<^>uA«!N<«^*t'W***W- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1. A. 18*79 and by lowering the grade it lessened the quantity of earth very much, but it also incrcuHed the rock to Mome extent, not so large a proportion, but to a considerable extent. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. You gather from the papers that the change was niade on the suppasition that it would increase the cost by $258,U00 ? — Yes. Q. And, in fact, so far as the work has gone, according to your eBtimi;te, the oottt has been increased by 8980,000 ?— Yes. Q. A difloronce of some $700,000 ?— Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. I understood you to say, that you are not at all certain that the quantity esti- mated will not bo exceeded ? — I do not think it will be loss, and my impression was when I was there that the estimated quantities were being exceeded. Q. Have you ascertained that any further payments have been made to the con- tractors on section 25 ? — I saw Mr. Fleming's chief assistant, he said that he did not know of any, but he would ask. No further claim has come before him. If there ih any, it may have been sent to the Minister. TcBSDAT, 8th April, 1379. Mr. Sandford Fleming, C. E., Chief Engineer of ' \q Canadian Pacific Bailway, •called and sworn, was examined as follows : — By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. We want information on section 13, beginning at Kaministiqaia and extend- ing to Sunshine Creek ? — I may not be able to give you as full information as you 4esire, because I am not blessed with a good memory for detail, but I Will be happy to furnish what I can. Q. This document marked A is a schedule of the works fyled by Mr. Marcus Smith, and sworn to by him, showing the amount of work as estimated. Is that correct? — I imagine that it is correct, but I nf er saw the sheet before. It appears to be a copy of the original. Q. What is the additional amount expended on this section. Probably it would be better to explain to the committee about this work. There was a change in it, was there not. It was originally let to Shebandowen, was it not ?— I have read the evidence of Mr. Smith. As far as I remember it, it is substantially correct. There are nomo parts, in wliich T don't entirely agree with him, but the quantities, &c., are .pretty nearly correct, I believe. (J. Was the work, in j'our opinion, thoroughly surveyed before the estimate was prepared ? — It was not thoroughly surveyed, it was done buiriedly. Q. Were you unwilling to have the contracts let upon it as it was?— No, I was very anxious to have the contracts let. I thought it was very important for the public interest, that the line should be built as speedily as possible. Q. \Ym it not important that the estimate of its cost should be accurately ascertained ? — It is important, but I thought it was still more important that the work should be done. Q. Did you represent to the Minister that this estimate of the cost was unreli- able? — I rcprei^oiited to the Minister that this was simply a means of comparing tenders, that it had no pretensions to accuracy as to the final cost of the line. Q. Did you state that in writing to the Minister? — I am not aware that I did. I do not remember at this moment whether I did or not. Q. Are you uure that he did not understand it to be an estimate of the cost? — I am quite sure that he understood it as a means of comparing tenders. He maj possibly have understood it differently from me. Q. He may have understood it to have been an estimate of the cost ? — He may. 28 A. ^B19 ch, but it also a considerable le supposition im<;te, the ooat quantity e8ti> apressioQ was vie to the con- lat he did not a. If there is ril, 1379. icific Bailway, la and extend- lation as yon till be happy ' Mr. MarouB ited. Is that I. It appears >ably it would change in it, lave read the M-rect. There bities, &c., are > estimate was ?— No, I was rtant for the bo accurately tant that the }t was unreli- of comparing le lino, e that I did. f the cost? — irs. He may it ?— He may. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 181» Q Can you not say whether you mudo a report to him in writing upon tho sub- ject ?— If I made a report it would bo in my !ottor-book, and, if you will allow luo, I will send for that book for January, 1875. ,.«,,,, Q Was that section a difficult one to survey ?— It was not difficult to survey, but before tho lotting of this work wo had been making surveys in a gioal many directions, in order to decide, not ho much the precise lino, as tho louto to follow. Some of these surveys were made in tho summer and some of thom in tho winter. If I recollect rightly, this portion of tho survey was made in tho winter, and it was done in detailed portions; and fiom those surveys tho quantities wore taken out roughly. These quantities wore to enable us to money out the pnces at which ouch contractor could tender, to make a comparison of tenders, Q In such uncertainty as you say there was in that case, would you not make irreater allowances in quantities, so that the estimate might not bo exceeded ?— It is proper to make allowance, and I regret very much that sufficient allowances have not been made in these cases. . , , ,, Q Was there anything in the character of the work to have misled tlio engineer makiiiK tho surveys ?— The surveys made in the winter doubtless were misleading, so far as the nature of the soil was concerned. They may have taken very soft ground, such as muskegs, for hard ground. . „ „ , ., . ,. u ^ ^i, Q. Were there muskegs on this section ?— Not on this section, but there was quite hoft ground. , , ., •. i . • •.. Q Did it prove, in the execution of the work, that there really was ihat in it which' excused so great a discrepancy ?— 1 do not think there is a very groat discre- nanov in this particular section (No. 13). I am not aware that tliere is. Q What IS the difference ?— $61,000. I do not look upon that as a very great discrepancy. I would much prefer if there had been no discrepancy. I would have preferred it had been the other way. ,,,,.•. Q Was there anything in the character of tho work, developed in its execution, to excuse any discrepancy, as great a discrepancy as that ?— When the work was let, we did not even know where we were going to ; wo were making surveys by Lake Shebandowan, on a direct line to Kat Portage, on tho route spvken of when last I Hppeared before a Committee of the Senate. Having found that we could not i)ossi bly jret through that way without an enormous expenditure, the line in this veiy section was changed. Instead of going to Lake Shebandowan, wo branched off at a place called Sunshine Creek, 15 or 16 miles this side of Lake Shebandowan. Q Who were tho enjrineers that surveyed it?— Various engineers. I do not very well remember now who they were. I remomber Mr. Murduck had something todfowithit. So had Mr. McLennan, and Mr. Hazlewood and others. Q Is it not difficult when so large a number of ongmeers are emijloyed on so small a work as that, to get a correct estimate ?— They were not all engaged at the one time. They were engaged in running different lines over that portion of the "*'"°Q.*^'''Vho made the locating survey ?— I think it was made by Mr. Hazlewood, or Mr. McLennan. By the Honorable Mr. Penny:— Q Did not Mr, Murdock make it in the first instance, and Mr, Hazlewood effect a change ?-I think so. I think Mr. Murdock made the first survey ; I ana not sure that he made the locating survey. The work was revir*ed by Mr, Hazlewood afterwards and the line that is built was located under Mr, Hazlewood s direction Q. You say that you don't think the discrepancy large ; do you know other csises where discrepancies have occurred ?— Yes, many. Q Can you mention any of them?— I could, if I had time to hunt them up. Could you give ua any that we would be naturally acquainted with as cominir under oui- own observation ?— There are few contracts let in this way where there is not a similar discrepancy. T!iis contract was let before we hud sulhcieut information to enable us to coinpule the total cost. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 (I However, yoii say that such thingH are by no raoftiiH uncommon ? — By no means nncommon. Q. Mr. Iliizlowuod is tho ji^oiilleman who locatoil the lino, and Mr. Sniith did not like to say much about him, as ho was doivd, etc., but ho said that the gontitMnan had not mado the survey in such a manner as he (»ught to havo don«. Wo also ascer- tainoil from Mr. Hmith that Mr. Iliizlewood had boon employed on the Intercolonial Railwi'y, and I wanted to know whether there was anything in hi-» conduct on the Intorco'lonial Iluilway that causeti him to bo consurod or dismissed, or anytiiing of that kind ?— 1 am perfectly certain that Mr. Smith could not have meant to retloct on the character of Mr, Hazlowood in any manner whatever. I have had a good m iny men under mo on engineering works, and never had one in whom I had greater •contidohco than in Mr. Ilazlewood. ,1 had every contidonco in his integrity and skill. Q. So there was no fault to find in the omploymont of a gentleman in whom your contiiletu'o was ho marked? — I looked upon Mr. Hazlowood ih one of the best men on the [nterculonial liailway. By ike Honorable Mr. Maepherson : — Q. Wei-o you sutisfiod with his location of section No. 5 on the Intercolonial Kailway ?— 1 may say lh:it I was well salistiiid with ove;y thing that Mr. llaxlewood •did on the Inleicoloniul liailway. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. And you sanctioned his employment in this case? — I did most certainly. il. Of course ho was not diwihargod from tho Intercolonial Railway ? — Ue was not. He was at work on tho Intercolonial Railway when the principal work was finished and f was very glad indeed to got him on the Pacific Ri>ilway. Ho was a man 1 had the utmost confidonco in. I wish we had a good many like Mr. Ilazole- "wood on it now, , » liy the Hcnorable Mr. Marpherson : — (i. Tho ne.\t section is No. 25; that is a continuation of this one? — Yos. Q. 1 suppose you havo road Mr. Smith's evidence upon this contract also? — I have glancod over it. The description of section 25 is generally correct. Q. Thoro is a decrease of solid rock excavation, over 2-40,000 yards as estimated of 76,8C(» yjirds as executed ?— I may state to the Committee that I was very much Bui'prised indeed to find that thoj'e was such an alarming increase in the quantities of that section. It first came under my notice in December last. I think ono of tho conti-uetors applied for tho final certificate, or tho portion of tho drawback that had boon withhold, about 850,000 I think, In looking over the matter with a view to ascertaining^ whether it would be proper to grant either one or tho other, I dis- covered that the quantities of tho work on that section, wore very much in excess of the quantities that wore originally estimated at the beginning of the contract. Of course, I could not recommend that they should have any paj'ment, and they havo received no payment since. I recommended to the Minister that, in order to satisfy him and myself and tho public thai no mistake had been made, there should be a re- measuremont of the work, and the Minister concurred in that view. Q. What is the amount of their claim now ?— I think that they had received payment according to the nieasuroraent for all that they had done, or nearly ail that they had done, up to that time. I was not in the country, and it was done during my absence . Q. What remains to be paid to them? — The work was far advanced, nearly completed, and they thought that they should have the ten per cent, that had been retained, or at least a considerable portion of it. They wanted to get $50,000 of the percentage, but tlie request was not complied with. Q. What amount did you retain m the hands of the Government ?— I am informed that abobt $75,000 at this moment is kept back from them. Q. Is tho work to be re-measurod ? — It is. • 30 A. 1879 rion ? — By no Smith (lid not tMitlotnan had »Vo also HHCor- [ntorcolonial iid'ict on the ■ anvthini' of eaiit lo reflect vu had a ^ood , [ had greater rity and skill, man in whom of the best Intercolonial [r. JIazIewooti iertainly. ay ? — Ue was lal work was V Ho was a Mr. Ilazeio- I -Yea. ract also ? it. i as estimated ■as very much he quantities think one of i-awback that r with a view other, I dis- h in excess of contract. Of id they have lor to satisfy hould be a re- had received learly all that i done during inced, nearly hat had been {50,000 of the mont ?— I am 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 18V9 By the Honourable Mr. McLelan .— « r i .• • (). Is that in addition to the sum they have deposited as security ?— In addition to the security, Jis 1 have stated. This is simply the money that would be paid to thorn on the work being satisfactorily completed. , „ mi q. Then no part of the sum doposited as security has been roturnetl ?— There was no money deposited, but there was some other form of security. Jiy ihe Honourable Mr Macpherson .— (I. Ifiiinkthat has boon introduced more recently ?— I think there wan huI>- •tantial security deposited at the time. There was about . 130,000 security deposited, t^. Do you moan to say that there is $205,000 in the hands of the Government which they claim to bo theirs?— Yes; something like $205,000 in the hands of the Government, not in money, but in money and securities. I have sent to ascertain the exact character of the securities. H. Have you any reason to suppose that the work has been ovor-moasurod ? — 1 carnot imagine that the work has been over-measured ; I have confidence in the men who measured it, but there might have boon a mistake. (I. Who were the engineers ?— Since my poor friend, Hazlewood, died, Mr. Mc- Lennan lias lice n nctini,' in his place, and ho has had other engineers under him who made tho measurements. Q. Has he reported to you, and explained to you the increase of tho work ? — He has not oxpliiined to my satisfaction why there should be so large an increase. He states that the work returns as executed is correct, but I am not satisfied that it is. vVt all events, 1 think in the interest of tho public a re-moasuremcnt should be made. Q. Was there anything in the character of the work as developed in its execu- tion which explains such discrepancy between the amount of work done and tho original e>>tinuite?— That has boon explained pretty well in Mr. Smith's evidence as I rend it. lie explains that there are many muskegs and poft wet ground that swal- lowed up u yrcat deal of material, which soft places could not^have been well known when the .surveys were made over them in tho winter time. q. Arc there many muskegs on thatsoction ? — Yes; a great many many miles. q. Deep muskegs'?— Not all deep ; some of thorn are shallow. Q. What system have you adopted of getting over those muskegs in construc- tion ? — In some cases wo make a corduroy platform for the embankment, and if they are shallow we do not. Q. What do you do— fill up?— Yes. (i. Are there many such platforms on section 25 ?— I cannot say how many. (}. Is that tho more economical way of construction? — Sometimes it is, but not invariablv. (J. When muskegs are deep I suppose it- is?— When tho embankment is heavy it will find its way to the bottom no matter what you may put under it in the way of logs and bi-ush. Q. Are the embankments heavy on this section? — Some of thorn are light, and some ol them more or loss heavy. As a rule, a great many of tho embankments are light. Q. Have you been over the work youi-solf? — I have not. q. You have not .seen it, since it was located ? — 1 have not. By the Eoiwrable Mr. Penny : — Q. There is nothing in those surveys that could load the permanent staff— Mr. Trudoau, the Deputy Minister, and still loss the political Minister— to know that whatever lino was exhibited to tho contractor would turn out inaccurately 7—1 am quite sure that if I was deceived by the result of the surveys, they could know no more than I did. Q. Beyond the Department has tho public lost anything by tho increase— I wish to know whether, if the facts had been known, the cost woald have been as great as it is now ? — I do not see that tho public has lost anything. The work would have to be done some way or another. 31 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 187» PP ( .' ill: fiy the Honorable Mr. Macpherarm : — Q. T)Ui you report the incroasos to the Minietor whoii you diacoverotl thom ? — I did at oiK-u. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. How Koon iiftor tho work was done did the Minister become aware of tliis ? — Only a whort time ago. Q. So there was nothini^ in the clerical work that wan done at tho dead of tho Department to indicate what was going on along tho line ? — I do not clearly compre- hend your quohtion. Q. Wa« there anything to Hhow the Minister or the Deputy' Minister that a great change had taken place on tho work, and that the work waH over-running the original estimates before you gave him the information ? — I was out of Canada at tho time. They may have known in my absence. I am not aware that they did know until I informed them myself. Q. Was there anything naturally in the work itself that would attract their at- tention to it? — Not unless it was reported to them> By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Would not the resident enginner repoct to them? — All the reports of that nature from the resident engineer should doubttoss bo communicated to tho Minister, but I am not sure that any thing of the kind was done. Q. 1 see that the latest return of oxecuiod work was made on the 30th November last. That showed an increase of about 3:-{i per cent, over the estimate; ought not that groat increase to have attracted tho attention of the Minister here ? — No doubt it would on examination. Q. But you do not know whether it did ? — I do not know what action may have been taken by them. I can only speak for myself; 1 was not in tho country at the time. By the Honorable Mr. Penny: — Q. Did these progress estimates go to the political Minister? — lie never sees them unless he calls for them. Q. And he would not call for thom unless his attention was attracted to thom ? — Not unless there was something to attract his attention. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson: — Q. But if they exceeded the original estimates largely, would it not be the duty t>f his assistsntsto bring the fact** under his attention? — I suppose so, and that was done. Q. When? — It was done on the tivst occasion when it came ollicially under my own notice. Q. About what time? — Late in the fall, possibly in December, after the boats Htopped running on Lake Superior. Q. That was after the change of Government? — Yes. Q. Then the increases all took place during the reign of the former Government. The last return was dated the 13th November ; was it not brought under the notice ot Mr. Mackenzie ? — I was not in the country until the end of Octooer. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Did you ascertain under what certificates ? Do thejmonthly certificates show how much was paid on account to the contractor, up to |that time ? — Yes, as I ex- plained already, the contractors applied,when they returned from the work by the last steamer on I'ake Superior, to me for a portion of the percentage. Before recom- mending it, I looked into the matter and found that they bad already received more money than the original estimate. Q. What I want to ask is this : Would not the monthly certificate as it passed their offices showed the amount paid on that contract, or certified to bo paid on that contract ? — Yes, in each office. 88 f\\ 'fi A. 187» red thorn ? — I ftro of tins ? — [lo tioiul of tho early conipro- )!• that 11 greftt r-running the Canada at tho thoydid know tract thoir at- oports of that tho. Minister, 0th November tc ; ought not >— No doubt it tion may have iountry at the lo never 8ee» >d to them ? — )t bo the duty and that wa» ,lly under ray after the boats rGovornment. >r the notice of srtilicates show -Yes, as I ex- ork by the last Before recom- received more tte as it passed paid on that 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. And that, going through all tho Dopurtiuoiils woal'l sh)Y, wfioovor h:iii Mod it, that a certain ani(»unt had boon paid f — Yos, in tho l"'iiianco and olhor Dopart- menlH that had anytiiing to do it. Q. .So thero really would boa knowlodgo of thoaiiMuut in tho Doparttnonls?— • Yes, tho Dopartnionts were apprised of tho money paid. By tin; Uomruhle Mr. Penny : — 2^ miles of it, you had some knowledge of tho route tho lino would take? — My answer is eorrect if I understand your question. (i. About the time that section 13 was let, you made a change in tho general route of the line ? — Yes. Q. And that took 32^ miles out of it ?— Yes. Q. At that time you'must have known that you were changing the general line ?— Uetwoen that period and the letting of the ci)ntracis no great time elapsed. Q. There appeared to have boon fourteen months, or, at all events, a year in round numbers ?— 1 will explain by a diagram. The original seclion ran through Thunder Bay and Shebandowan. We endeavored to get as direct a line as possible by way of Sturgeon Falls to the ^orth-West angle, or Kat Portage. In the meantime,, tho first contract was let, and tlu-y commenced at the eastern end, and they were at work by the time we discovered that we could not get a practicable line via Sturgeon Falls. A good deal of the road had been built. Some work had been done also at the western end, I think, but not much beyond clearing. We made a survey to the north, leaving section 13 at Sunshine Creek. From that i^int to l-lnglish River, is the portion of section 25 where the grading was required to be done. Ij. Do you know how long it was after the letting of this, before you determined upon that devi.uion ? — It was some considerable time after the work was started on the eastern end, if mj- recollection is right. B}i the Ilomrable Mr. Macplherson : — Q. You >a\ (rDvornmont ? — Kvoryboily I (.•otno in contact witli folt thai it was vcr}' important. Q. Hut, you dill not lot the' woik witlout tlio sanction of tlio Govornmont ? — No doubt tlio (iovornnioiit (oil .n tlio ])iil)lin Falls, ft was doinon- stratod that wo could not build a r.'iilway ilirout^h tii..L way except at enormous cost, and that policy hud to bo abandoned. Q. That is, that if at any future time it might bo thou<;ht desirable to extend the lino beyond Sturgeon Falls, it could not be done except at enormous cost? — It could not. Bii the Honorable Mr. HaytJiorne: — il. What made you persist in your otForts to proceed by Sturgeon Falls? — I folt tho importance of it, and I was directed to do so by tho Minister. (^. Were there any previous surreys or anything to lead you to believe there was a practicable route by that direction? — No; but, looking at tho map, it was thought very desirable to have a line that way. From Sturgeon Falls to tho far end of Lake of the Woods, a distance of sovoral hundreds of miles, it is navigable with the e.xception of Fort Frances Falls. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — t^. Had not MV. Dawson made a survey of that route some time before? — Mr. Dawson had spoken of it, but I think he never made ft survey of it. I do not think that any survey was made until we made it. Q. r am quite awaro that there was no instrumental survey, but I thought that Mr. Dawson had made a report which led to the idea that there was a practicable loutc that way ? — Mr Dawson advocated it veiy strongly and very wisely; but we found that we could not get a route that way. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Was not the route whi-'h was recommended by Mr. Dawson that by the Narrows of tho Lake of the Woad>, crossing at the North- West Angle? — Yes. Q. But he never mad-' any rc.oraraendation, nor reported having made an ex- ploratory survey by Rat Porta)';c, hut he recommended the route by the Narrows of the Lake of the Woods ? — I ;)/> w t know that ho made any special survey. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. At all events, his idea was to use those water stretches? — Tes. By the Honorable Mr. M'Lelan : — Q. You said that the object ii" estimates is for a comparison of tenders? — Yes. Q. Can you get a correct comparison of tenders without a correct estimate ? — You can get an approximate and fa'r comparison of tenders in t'lat way. Q. In case of section 25, whei earth has been more than doubled, and solid rock reduced two-thirds, was it a fair comparison of tenders ?— Yes. sufficient for the purpose, and I do not know any other way in which you could do it. As proof that the system is tho correct one. I will state to you that the increased quantities have been moncyd out at the pric- -s in tt'C schedule of tho five or six lowest tenders, and we find that tiie public interc ts have not greatly suffered by tho discrepancy in the wriginal and subsequent quamilios. 34 A. 1879 .^ a matter of ily I (.•amo in ivoriimotit ?— to bo done, ini.notit? — Of (tovoinment. )orfoct wildor- u (lifflciilty of riiore are no (> ])olicy was t was doinou- uormous cost, bio to extend ous cost? — It Falls?— Ifolt beliovo there map, it was bo the far end avigablo with before ? — Mi-. do not think '. thought that a practicable isoly; but we I that by the ?— Yes. g made an ex- he Narrows of v^oy. ders ? — Yes. •t estimate ? — ay. )led, and solid Ificient for the As proof that iiautities have t tenders, and •opancy in the 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1^7!* xrcrsnT'WX-rr (J. Hut is it probable th;it the contractors, if they had known thnt the (jiiantitios wonld li»v«« varied ho much, would have ma from your Unowlodgo of the tenders ?— A groal deal may ho said on that and any other Hul.ject, but wo bavo no other way of gctlinjr at the quantitios. i hold that (t in tho host way of lotting the work. 1 don't know any other way by which it could bo dono hotter. Ihl the Uonortihle Mr. Manphcrson : — Q. 1) t wo understand you to say thai tho correct (|uantitio9 could not be ascer- tained almost to oxactnoMs"?— Not in the timo. il, Uy a survey they could have boon ascortainod ? — Ky takinif a sufficient time they coulil have been, not with perfect oxactnosM, but approximately. (). /\!id as likely to exceed as to fall under tho estimate ? — I suppoHO ho. liy the llomrahlt. Mr. Uaythorne :— Q. Mr. S iiith explained as a cause of tho incroiiso of expenditure, that proper precaulions had not been taken to ivrcvcnt tho sinking of embankments in the mnskd's; do you agree with him?— With a good deal of his evidence; not entirely. Section 14. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. You have read Mr. Smith's evidence with reference to this section, I suppose ? — Yos. Q. Lo you agree with it substiantially ?— Yes, a great deal of it. Q. All with respect to the quantities '/—Yes; 1 take it tho quantities are the office quantities. Q. I see that the estimated cost of the work was $402,9.50, and the amount paid for it was $(558,849, and $722,134 is the amount estimated to complete it; is not that ■o?— According to the return placed in my hand the value of the work done on on section 14 is $658,849, but that has not all boon paid. Q. And the estimate of the cost of the work to be completed is $722,134, is it Q. When was that work let? — The advertisement calling for tenders was pub- ]i8he acquire the right of way where the Government has to pay for it. Q. Could you noi have lioughl it in advance ? — It is difficult for a Government to do that. By the Honorable Mr. Fenny : — Q. I supjjosc when you would attempt to buj', the people wouUl know what it was for? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Haytkorne : — (J. Has the crossing at Selkirk given groat additional value to the lands possess- ed by the Government in that vicinity? — That is the oi'dinary effect. The 500 acres owned by the llmlson's l>:iy (-ompany at Winnipeg has been greatly advanced in value of late years. By the H'Winible Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Is not that in cuusequcnco of the growth ot Winnipeg? — Yes, and the pros- pect of the railway. Q. Why should the placing of a bridge at Selkirk establish a town there? — t fancy, in this instance, it will have the ottect of establishing a town, because it istho head of the navigation of Lake Winnipeg; it is a point where difleront local railways will converge, and it will be an important point on the Pacific Railway. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne; — Q. Would not a good deal of freight meet iho railway there ?- will be a great deal in the future. -Possibly there itai A. 1879 hut thoio in uol b tbo time, and I did not thor- iter. lioro ? — Yes ; it by any one who ^ei" been flooded, ter of a century i8 very well ? — Selkirk ; but we y Company and le tliere, simply t a line through >t belong to the acquired by the (Cted at Selkirk, of the land have ly? — It formed know. it coHts quite t has to pay for a Government )»I<1 know what [le lands possess- The 500 acres dvanccd in value !s, and the pros- town there? — t , because it is tho ant local railways ■ay. -Possibly there 42 Vii'toria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. IS19 By the Honorable Mr. ittacpAerson .•— Q. From where ?— From the Saskatchewan. J*U fl TO- 1.1 Q Would freight coming by converging railways be trans-shipped then r Woaia it not run through ?— Every gentleman is as well able to form an opinion on that M ''^^OCan you give any information to the Committee on the expected cost of section 14?— I cannot; I have dealt with that in the same way as with section 26. I have suspended all payments until we have the work remeasured. Q. What amount have you in hand as a reserve ?-That I can find out, and inform you of. By the Honorable Mr. Penny .•— Q I suppose all that you said before with regard to section 13 as to the impossibility of giving a closer estimate in the lirst instance, and as to the fact of the public having lost nothing, applies to this as well as to the other?- In retraid to that question, I have in my hand some calculations niade a short time ago, and from these I see that the public have lost nothing by the increase in quantitiesf; that is to say, the tenders, if all moneyed out, with the increased quantities, would be very much in the same relation to each other as they were originally. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan .— .... « m i • Q That is taking the tenders as made on the advertised quantities?— laking the tenders as they were received by the Government and money ing out the quan^^i los. ^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ tenders might have been difterent if the quantities had beou known ?— They might or they might not. . Bu the Honorable Mr. Macpherson:— *u • - Q. There is a great deal of muskeg on this section, I believe?— Yes : there is a very heavy muskeg or swamp, called the Julius rau^V'J**t' .jL-.i;, ■fjKva^ftn.'ffiuJkeMvm r- . 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 By the Honorah/e Air. Marpkerson : — Q. Who Murveyed this «ertion V — >lr. Honry McLood. I think. ({. I HuppoHC it the Mini.stcr had e.Yprortsod like diHsatiafactioD, you would not feol at liberty to repout it hero? — I uin not uwaro that he has. Q. Who \h the engineer in ohurge of this work ? Who located it ? — I caunoL remember who made the original Hurvey. There was one survey made by M; . Jar- vis years ago, pcrhujts in the year 1S73. The more recent 9ui"\'oy« were made under Mr. Kowan, and no one was mure Hurpi-ised than myself to find the qu:tntitio3 so greatly exceedeil. I was very much diHsappointed. 1 had hoped that in every cae« we had made sutHcicnt allowance tor overylhinir, but it seems wo had not in this cose. As I said before, the whole thin^ w^s dune very hnrridly in the office at head- quarters, simply on the profile furnished, and during the Session of Parliament, when everyone is worked at high proi^snre. It is not surprising that mistakes of this kind sometimes occur. Q. Can yon tell us what the survey cost between Lake Sopenor and Eed Biver? — I could not jn.st now. I could tell you approximately in a little timo Q. Do you not think that the headquarters of the Engineering Department i« inconveniently remote from the work, being at Ottawa, here ? — Yes; but there is no place where you could have the headquarters on two or throe thousand miles of rail- way that would be convenient to all the neclions. Q. But when you were building the railway between Lake Hamirioj i ' Red Biver, it would be more convenient, I should think, to have the Li-Uii:. < a at Prince Arthur's Landing ? — It would bo very inconvenient in winter, li say :)fornui- tion were required by Parliament it could not be had. Q. Would it not have been more convenient and advantageous in the pub- lic interest to have had a h'gher authority than the District Engineer's within reach, especially in winter when Ottawa is inaccessible to them? — We have an office at .Prince Arthur's Landin« not in this ffice at head- Parliament, itakeH of this Red River? ipartraont i« it tlieio is no j)ilo8 of rail- \end upon the nature of the earth moved i"— Yes; we wiil have to send a man of judgment and experience to make a rc-ine«suroment, to bejiin at one end and measure it through to the other. „ , , , ^ Q Is any portion of the ground from which tho earth for the embankment* was taken, of a peaty or swampy nature ?— Yes; there are some portions, and these are the points whtire I say that there will be some difficulty in making a close re- measuiement, but \i we narrow the whole thing dowu to these portions, we can use our judgment in tho matter. ... o Q. Don't you believe that a large portion of this jncicase is in those swamps t— I hiive no doubt it is, but 1 cannot positively say. .„ .. ^ , Q. And in these swamps it will be most difficult to re-moasuro, will it not/— Yes. Bu the JJonorable Mr. Christie .— Q I fancy that it will be impossible in the portions of the ombonkmonts where they have sunk, to re measure it ?— We will have to make •• o estimate of it. We ha/o the original level of the swamps, and we can find tho i w level and make the estimate accoi-dingiy. If, in testing all the>casnrements, wu hnd that all but those connected with the swamp arc perfectly acruiate, wo may roasoniiMy assume that they are accurate too. .,„ . , . ., xt i* i „„ Q. Has the re-measnroment anything to do with their claims /—A o. It has nothing to do with their outside claim. , ^ ,. . .u^ t^ What is the romoasurement for?— It is simjjly to test the accuracy ol the returned quantities. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Upon which they have been paid ? — Yes. By the Ilonorablc Mr. Macpherson :— , , . Q. Then what is the nature of their claim?- If you will allow mo to send for it. I will explain it more satisfactorily than I can now. , • i i .i ;„ fh« Q. dan you give us a general idea. Are they for works not included in the estimates?— One is for making roads to their work. , ,. , ^ „,..„»„«„f Q. The committee would like to understand tho real object of re-measurement, and what is to be gained by it?-The claim made has nothing to do with tho re- mcsurement. They claim that they should .be paid addi lonal rates for sonie items rates over and above those mentioned in the contract. That is one portion of the '''*"q Wo would like to have some similar information with regai-d to contract 13? -Contract U has been, 1 think, disposed of by settlement. I J^'^^ the contractors have boon paid in full. Howeve- , there is a mistake .n the evidence ,n regard o Na 13. It w! 8 stated in Mr. Smith's evidence, and I think I Paid that I thought it waa substantially correct so far as the amounts were concerned i""'*'^'"^*' «» they wc« obtained fiom the office, but I find that there is a htl e 'n'*^tak« The o"g'"'^' ^nt mate for the contract when it was made for the 45 miles, was $406,194. The prosont length of the section (13) is 32^ miles or thereabouts. Tho proportion has been '^^"fV.^.'smtth made tho amount difTertnt himself. He calc«lat«i it here and gave us the proportion. At that moment Mr. McLelan discovered m your report of the Canadian Paeitic Railway, for 1877, that yon stated the amount at a siM)Cific sum. Mr. Smith said, at my suggestion, or the suggestion of some '"^'^^er "f th* <'^™- miftoe. that wa^ no. loubt, correct; that his could only bo approximate, being the proportion which one bore to tho other, and that this, in your report, was, no doubt, V I m iiimawiiiyWl|ii,rw"*. *" ♦*«**■*«*««*<>*»»•. :i«*«*WM»!Mih*- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. IB19 t ^^ 1^ through oiittiiigH, and leave oponiiigs for the trestle-work. The trestle-work was not intended to bo put up then, bocunno it wuh tlioiii,'lit that it would take considerable time to make the o.xcavalionH and the timber woiild siniply lie rottiuj^. By poat- ponin;; the trostle-work the timber would la«t so much longer. Then, when wo came to lot the third time (although I was not then in Canada) 1 believe that the g-adi- ents were placed very much iho name a« they wore on the Hecond lotting. They were not ehangod, but the difference between the third letting and the second letting wa.s this : the third letting embraced the trestle-work, and track-laying and ballasting, as well as the through excavation. By ilic Honorable Mr. McLelan: — Q. Then, as I understand you, the cuttings ami embankments wore .substantially the same in the second and thii-d, but in the third the trestle work and tracklaying were put in? — Yes; I think that is it. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — (i. I understood that t\ioy were more in the third ? — No, I think they were eub- gtantially the same. By the. Honorable Mr. Macplierson : — ii. The first really brought the construction up lo what \a known as "formation level" ?— Yes. Q. And the third gave the completed track, with rails laid ? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Is the grade as easy on the second as on the last? — Yes, I think so; substanti- ally the same, iiv far as that is concerned. By the Honorable Mr. Macphersmi : — (J. Can you tell us what the amount of rock excavation was on the first? — I can The tenders, imate of quantities ; I wish it to be distinctly understood that those bills of works wore pre- pared for the special ])urpo.se of comparing tendeix, and that only. The very amounts will show that thcr wore round numbers— <300,000; 600,000; 10,000, etc.,— all these indicate that it was simpiv a way, and the only way, wo had to compare tenders. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. In fact there were no estimates ? — They were very rude estimates. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. What was the estimated (juantity of solid rock? — They wore as good estimates as we could make at the time and under the circumstances. For anyone to pretend that more accurate estimates than those could be made is more nonsense. ; subetanti- tij'Ht? — I can ractors. The f of tenders. CHtimate of c» wore pre- rery amounts :•.., — all these ) tenders. an. ood oHtimato8 o to pretend 3. rock, 600,000 Hake, 20,000 was a little a own tender other also? cubic yards; t understand, bic yards of 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. Do you m«a» to say tliat this was the one that was submitted (<» the contrac- tow?— Yes. , „ ^ Q. And that was 80,000 cubic yards ?—Yoh. . ^ • .. a Q Was not the trestle-work intended to take the place ol earth m the second tendering ?— The tret tie-work was intended to take the place of ombankraentu in the second tendering. i « n -ui Q. And does not that account for the small amount of earthwork?— lossibly. Q Have you the trestle-work in that ?— No ; because it was not intended to put up work that would be partially decayed or destroyed by fire before it was want«l. I foresaw that the line from Fort William to Keewatin would not bo required lor some years, and there was no use in putting that trostlework in then, because it would be half rotten before it could be used for traffic. Q. Then, the third tendering?— The quantities appear to be the same as th« second, with the addition of timber for trestles. . . .^ a Q. Is not the solid rock excavation 20,000 cubic yards loss than in the second letting?— Yc« ; it is 320,000 in the second, and 300,000 in the third, and the other items are the same as in the second, with the addition of a long list of timber for Q. What were the quantities executed at the latest ret rn ?— The amount re- ported to be done at the end of February, 1879, was as follows: Solid rock, 342,27« cubic yards; loose rock, 46,711 cubic yards; earth, 224,306 cubic yards; otf-takes, 2,264 cubic yards. , , ... ^o v Q. You made great changes in this work after it was lot, did you not ?— 1 09. Q. We have a letter of your own to the Department of Public Works, addressed to the Secretary, recommending the change ; I suppose it is a correct copy ?— On the 22nd of May, 1878, I wrote a letter to the Department, recommending a change in the chaiacter of the work, and giving the reasons why I made the recommendation. The letter is as follows: — , CAMAniAN Pacific Railway, Ofwcb of the Enqk :isr-in-Chikf, Ottawa, May 22nd, 1878. SiK,— Mr. Whitehead, on the 6th November last, proposed by letter, addressed to Mr. Rowan, which letter is herewith enclosed, to complete tho roadway on section 15 with permanent rock and earth embankments throughout, in lieu of wooden trestle-work, which was originally proposed to be built in many places. He pro- poses to find all the material required for making the solid embankmens at the con- tact price for earthwork (37 cents), and make no charge for extra haul for any that may have to be brought from long distances. Tho district engineer reports, this date, that tho contract cost of trestle-work, ■which would be dispensed with by the course proposed, would be about $360,000; that an additional present expenditure of $260,000 on earthwork under Mr. White- head's offer, including masonry culverts, would make all the embankments per- manently solid. , As trestle-work is always more or less dangerous, especially liable to bo con- gumed by tire during the dry season in a country such as tho one the lino goes through, and would have to be constantly renewed, until ultimately filled m ^lid. 1 am of opinion that it would ba sound economy to accept Mr. Whitehead's offer, and therefore recommend it. I am Sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed) SANDFORD FLEMING, Engineer-in-CMef. F. Braun, Esq., Secretary Department Public Works 43 -(■i-^.-v.^vsVSV**" » '.. A ,! 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) - A. I8t» Ottawa, 22nd May, 1878. Dear Sir, — Having rocoivod from the Division Bnginour of contract 16 th« estimato roforrod to iu my letter of the 5th of March last, reporting on the Hubject of Mr. Whitchoad'8 propounl : — " To make the embankmentH on contract 15 with Earth instead of Trestle-work," contained in his letter ot the 6th Novcmbor,1877,|whirh was enclosed in the above named letter of mine. I now submit further information on the subject, as follows : — The cost of completing the banks with earth instod of trestle-work w'lW bo |r)r>0,500 00 Deduct, trestle-work done away with in consequence oi>2,000 00 Balance $188,500 00 Add for masonry and permanent structures, say 70,000 00 $258,500 00 If trestle-work of the value given above ($362,000.00) is put in now : — Ita cost, at 6 p.c. per annum compound interest, at end of 6 years, say $485,000.00. By which time it would have to be either partially or wholly renewed, or replaced by edrth filling. If the latter, and if this could then bo put in at 28 cts. per c. yd. instead of at present contract rate of 37 cts. per c. yd. There must then be a further expen- diture of. $401,500 00 To which must bo added as above, masonry and permanent structures.. 70,000 00 Cost at end of 6 years $956,5 00 00 The immediate inci'eased cost of change ($620,344) would, if treated in the same manner, amount to the sum of. $831,318 00 Leaving a balance in favour of the proposed change $125,182 00 Or putting it in another form as follows, the i-esult would be : — Estimated coat of completing now, the bunks with earth instead of trestle-work. ^arM, 1,-133,281 cubic yards, at 37 cents $530,313 97 Timber in culverts, &c. 20,030 75 Permanent structures ,. 70,000 00 ' $6^0,344 72 • , Trestle-work, done away , 361,856 til $258,4 88 11 Suppose frcs^/c-worA j»ut m now at a cost of $361,856 61 And that it would last 10 years before being re- placed by earth, l,43i{,281 cubic yards, at 28 cents 401,318 60 To which add timber in culverts 20,030 75 .do Permanent structures 70,000 00 , . $853,206 04 Add 10 years' simple interest, at 5 per cent on $361,856 61 trestle-work 180,928 30 $ 1,034,134 34 m A. 187» iy, 1878. ntract 16 th« the Hubject of 15 with Earth 77,|whirh WM formation on > $550,500 00 ;ji>2,000 00 $188,500 00 70,000 00 $258,500 OO iW : — Its cost, 00. By which laced \>y edrth inutcad of at urther expen- . $401,500 00 70,000 00 . $956,500 00 breatod in the . $831,318 00 . $125,182 00 mated cost of [) ■> i - $258,4 88 11 1 -$1,034,134 34 i'i Victoria. Appendix (No. 1) A. 1879 If, for purposes of comparison, 10 years' simplo inlorest at 5 per cent, per aiiiuim, be also added to I'lo^cnt iiicrea>*ed co.st, on account ol chanj^c $1520,344 72 interest -»<'.172 OH «o;;o.3i(i HO .Sliowiiij' a l)alanco even tliis way of $103.«J17 .")4. To tills saving in money must also be added the important considenidwn, that portions, or t^e whole of the trestle work maybe ,kstroyed by fires, which are of frequent /xcurronco in the woods througli which the whole of this section ot the railway passes. Should such an event occur, the traffic of the line would be seriously inter- rupted ; indeed, it is not at all improbable some portions of the trestle-work will be (lostroyotl by tire before the line is opened. These (landers will bo entirely removed by the adoption ol the course now recom- mended. , Yours truly, Sandkord Ki.EMiNO, Esq., (Signed) JAMKS H. ROWAX. Kngiiieor in C'hicf. WiNNii'RU, Novcmlior 0th, 1877. Oeau Sik,— I beg leave to make the following remarks? and jiropositiou in rolbr «nce to the work on contract 15, with a request that you will submit the same to the Government. Tlio quantity ot rock required to be placed in the base of embankment throui^h lakes in order to make them wide enough to carry earth embankment sub- aequenlly, has to bo carried such a distance over interveniiij; spaces as to ^'rcatly retai'd the progress of the work. The disproportion between the quantity of material in the cuttings, and that re- quired to complete the embankments, will necessitate so very i:»rge an amount of trestle-work to bridge over the intervening space, that I cannot procure a sufficient quantity of suitable timber in the country with which to construct it. I have ascer- tained by iBcent investigation and the sinking of test pits, that sufficient or nearly sufficient material sand and clay can be obtained from borrowing pits to complete tlie whole of the banks, but some of this material would have to bo hauled tor a very considerable distance. As, however, the adoption of th'B course would greatly facilitate my progress with work, I would beg leave to make the following i)roposal; which I believe will oe found more economical foi- the Government also in the long run. If the Government will consent to do away with the trestle-work altogether, and permit me to complete the banks with clay and sand, I wil agree to find the neces- sary material at my present i>rice per cubic yard for earth-work, and make no charge for extra haul, for any of the material required to do this, which has to be procured from borrowing pits. .,,,,•. And I will make up the embankments through water with rock banks carried up to three feet above high-water mark, and having a berni of two feet outside of the foot of the earth slope on the plan suggested by you, as in the accompanying sketch, without extra charge. 17 SAND AND CLAY. # m 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1S19 An oarly reply will greatly oblige, as it is nocosHnry for mo to make Hpoeial arriingomcntrt for the transport of miitorial if my proposal \h approved of. I remain, Your obcciicni servant, (Signed) JOSEPU WHITKHEAD. Jaheh II. KoWAN, Esq. Q. You made that recommendation on Mr. Kowan'rt letter ? — You. (^. Did you examine his estimate, and satisfy yourself as to the increased cost ? — T did not; I accepted his calculations as being perfectly correct. Q. According to your own letter what was the estimate of the additional cost ? — $200,000. Q. How was the change ordered to be cai-riod out ? — I understood that this re- commcndiUion was favorably entertained. What was done afterwards, I do not know ; I left for England. [ am inclined to think, though my recollection is not very clear, that I spoke to Mr. Bowan, who was then going to Manitoba. I would naturally toll him that the embankments should be made solid and permanent, as the Minister seemed to favor the idea, but what action was taken, I do not know. It was not my place to do more than recommend it to the Minister, and my recom- mendation, if I recollect right, was approved, and I take it for granted thai, instruc- tions wore given to carry it out. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Had you gone to England before the 12th of June? — I remember that Fspent the Queen's birthda}' writing letters on the train between Quebec and Halifax ; that was two days after the recommendation was made, Q. Did you leave before the date of this document which I now show in yon ? — This is dated the 12th of June; I never saw it before. Q. You were not hero then ? — No. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Had you any communication with the Minister on the matter ?— The letter addressed to the Department is the communication. Q. Had you any interview with him ? — I have no doubt I had ; I have no doubt that I took in this letter and submitted it to him, and ascertained that he favored the idea, but I have no distinct recollection of it. The proof that ho favored the idea is, that he recommended it to che Council. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. It is not a recommendation ; he merely submitted it ? — He would not have done BO if he had not favored it to some extent. I certainly understood that tha idea was favored by the Department, and I have do doubt at all that I said so to Mr. Kowan, and that ho probably loft very soon afterwards for Manitoba. By tlxe Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. The alterations which were then made, and which you recommended thert, instead of costing $260,000, are now estimated to cost $9i{0,000 ? — It would seem so, but I have had nothing to do with this particular matter from then until now. Q. Who has had charge of it? — Mr. Smith has had charge of it in ray absence, and has had charge of these returns. Q. In reading Mr. Smith's evidence yon will see that he knew nothing of this ehange, until he went np afterwards and found them at work ? — Ho was in full charge of the Pacific Railway in my absence. Q. How was it, when Mr. Smith was to s-icceed you, that he was not fully ailvised as to the ehange ? — He had jiossossion of every document in the department, and if ho did not examine them it was not my fault. 46 A. 187» 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 mako Hpocial KHEAD. icroaaod cost ? tiontil co.st ? — that thin ro- rdH, I do not iloclion iH not toba. I would lanont, an the not knotr. It d my rocora- thal, inHtruc- or that T spent lalitiix ; that OW In \()II ?— ?-The letter have no doubt it he favored 3 favored th« >uld not have tood that the said .so to Mr. nended there, ould seem so, ,il now. my absence, othing of this was in full i^as not fully ) department, Q. Don't you think that in transforrin^ to him the mana^omont of the lino, it was worth while notifyini; himthiit,yoa had rocommondcKl a chiinfje involving nn increased expenditure of $260,000 ? — 1 took it for grunted that he would liavo got, an I would myself have got, full instructions from the Dopurtmont auihoriziiig the change . Q. He snii soon an possible, that thoy doeidod to put not only tho troHtIo work hut aJHO tho trnckluyin;^ ami Ijallasling under ronlrai^t, so u« to got ho mufh nonrer tho interior of tin; country. Jly the Jimorablc Mr. Macfihcnon . — Kl. And \N s Uio reuMon for ailopting tiio liowtlo-work to diminish tho cost ua much as poshi'>L) for the time being? — I cannot give you a very HUtisfuctory uuHWor because I was not horo. I cannot give other peuple'H roaf^unn. (I, But tho policy was settled before you left ? — Tho object of tho trestle-work was to get communication ac soon as possible. (J. Could not tho grading have been dono more economically after communica- tion was established by trostlo-wurk than without it ? — Itappoars not from tho report of Mr. Rowan. (^. Voii have iiad some oxporieiicc, what is your own opinion upon that ques- tion' — ^\y opinion varies; because, in a case like tho Intorcolonial Railway, I think it is a(lvi^alll<) to make tho work as permanent as possible. In this case the circum- Htances aiv dilfcrent. It is important to get a lino of stoam communication of any dcM ription, as soon as possible. <^. Could n.>t the earth-work have boon completed jnore economically, after tho traik was laid, and when the work could be done by locomotive, than before? — It is a iiKittei- oi calcnlalion. I really could not say. (^. You say (hat tho object was to got a communication through as early, as ra]iidjy. and as cheaply as jmssiblo? — Yes. <^. riion why was the whole policy cliangod, and one of a \nent road adiipicd '.' — J-'rom what I hav«> just learned it has not b'.on offic ..anged. I simply locoiiuiuMided a ciiange. 1 said that the additional cost would only be the Bnial! sum oi J'Jtlti, ()()(), and recoiumcndod that tho change be carried out. <^. Thai has run iij) now to nearly a million dollars?' — It has exceeded the esti- mate considerably; 1 know. fiy t/ie Jfe Mr. Pennij . — (l- ^'oii Ictt in .May, shortly after that lel'.er third contmct was lioing proccodod with?- -Yes. (^. So liiatyv.'M wore liere witun llio third contract was tlie pievidus year as well. .'>'// the llononxble Mr. Macpkerson : — (.^. Vou reviewed all that had been done, 1 presume Bi/ the /fonorahlr Mr. Penny: (J. Who was in charge when the thii-d contract was lot? — Mr. .Smith, acting linginccrin-t'hicf during my absence. Q. On both occasions?— Yes. Bif the Ifonorahle Mr. Macpherson ; — (I. Were you ever upon tho section ? — 1 have never been on tho work; but I will l)av( to he pretty soon. ily the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. lias tho work been dono as cheaply as it would be under any other circumstan- ces? — J felt it my duty lo enquire into that as soon as I know tho work wa.s increased. I have ill my hand a calculation which satisfies me, that tho public did not lose much by the clmnge from trestle woi'k lo permauenl embankments, under the present con- tract with Ur. Whitehead. Before 1 read the results of this calculation, it is proper that 1 should oxpUiin that Mr. Whitehead undertook to do the work without any charge for hauling. In the other tenders, hauling was to bo paid for, and unless thoy ■18 was written, but at that time the lot ? — Xo ; I was away uring your absence ? — Yes. Ho was A. IS19 uuvin^ out the ork m iiddod. theory i'h thiti, ; tho lino uum- not only tho r> UH to got rto inh tho cost us actory uimwor 10 trostlo-work 31' communicu- ■om tho roport pon that quos- lilway, I think so the cii'cum- liculion of any ally, aftor tho before ? — It in "h ab early, an anent road ..angod. I Id only bo the )Ut. soded tho esti- thut tiino liiu ) ; I was away bsonco ? — Yos. riilli. Ho was work ; but I lor circum.stan- was increased, not lose much 10 present oon- n, it is proper without any nd unless thoy 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1870 consented to do Iho snmo as Mr. Wliilelioiid, tho hauliuj; would have Ui bo paid for in cotHOfMiunco, it would, il irt pr<)p«n- to iuclmlo hauling in the otiior cases. In one tend«n-, the p'u-ty tondoritig utnlei'took to do the cluui'ing fur 20 cents an acre, which was intinitostly a mistaUu and would have to bo corrected. I suppose that he inoaiit 3'iO ))ur acre, and 1 have titUon the liberty of making that correction. <^ What is tho average? — Some are as high as 8J(). On those duia I lind that the livi' lowest tenders stand as follows: 1. Sutton, Thompson A Whitehead ;>-',ftl5,!M7 2. John A. (rreen & Co «,525,.J:ift ;i. Talbot Si Jones 2,7:^4,377 4. I>. Ilinkson 2,518,:{ll B. A. Farewell 2,6ti0,a8i) 'riit'se arc t'le five lowest tenders, tho iumeasod (luanlities being moneyoil out ^i' till' I ate- in each. Some of them come very close to tho tender of Sutton, Thon)pson <*lc VVliiioiiead, but none of them under il. Ih/ till'. Hoti'irdbU: Afr. MrJjilitn : — (*. Those are all tenilors made umlor exactly the same conditions of knowlod;:;e of till" work to he done? — Yos, contractors? — If this document is right it i.s i;()0,(lOO yards. il. Will you name some of the price-i for executing it? — I don't know any- thinL' about ilio paper which you have liando you imagine is tho manager of the contract?- I boliove that Mr. Whitehead is substantially tho contractor. (I. 1 believe that he had a tender in in his own narao at thi^^ lottiu'^' ? — Yes, Mr. "Whitehead's tender was very much higher than Sutton, Thompson iS: Whilehead. Q. What is the difference ? —Sutt,on, Thompson & Co., .? 1,594,085; Joseph White- head, 8 ',899,790. C^. Then, he having tendered at this large sum, ho is now substantially tho con- tractor, at this smaller figure ? — It would seem so. Q. 1 notice in that blue book of section 15, pago 41, you refer to tho i^rico of t 4'2 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 i Q. Did you not nay that the totals aflForded a fiiir ground of comparison ?— I did , and 1 'io i^o now. „ , , ., l u a.: Q Would not a comnaiiHon of the rates for the several items be a much tauer moaiisot comparison ?~No ; that would not give you a comparihon at all ; not a tair comparison. It wouldlead toall sorts of complications, difficulties and misconcep- '""q Did 1 understand you to say. that when the contractors were to be paid for all tlio work that they did, the prices they put on the items would not aflord the best means of comparison ?-They would, if you moneyed out each item by each separate rate and then added all together. If there was only one item in the tender you would not have to do that. . j ^ i . U Would not that be the case if the parties tendering were bound to complete the work for the gross amount for which ttey tendered ?— I do not comprehend that *^"^'*Q° Thorfc arc two modes of tendering; one in which the contractor binds himself to complete ilie work for an amount which he names; but when, as in this instance, the conliactor was to be paid for whatever work was done without refi-)rable Mr. Marphcrson : — Q. Wore they U-lm their cost?— Below their valu«. q. What do you moan by that ; below the sums actually paid?— Below wliat the Avork c> iild be done fur with a fair profit or without loss to the contractor or the con- tract* a'.s riieuila. By the. Honorable Mr. Penny : — q. As a fact, did i iio cost exceed, in many cases, the contract price?— Yes; the cost in many eases exi-edod the contract. , By the Honon.lile Mr. Macpherson .— (I Wore there aiuMiits brought by e.outi-actors against the Government, and did the Court not hold'.lMt they could not recover ?— Some of them recovered. here is no other way of comparing the tenders as they are received. Q. Do you mean the aggregrate of each item ?— Theio cannot be an aggregate ot each item ; there can only Ih) an aggregate of the whole. , , „ , Q Y..U mean each item ?-l mean the total sum of the whole of the smaller sums. ■ Q. Yo> ; but if the quantities are changed, as they were in this case, how would the to'ai afford a true basis of comparison?— The best proof that they ^l *4U Q. Did that necessarily follow, or was it it an accidenl ?-U is proof that the system julopled i.s a good one. 1 admit lluil iheie is a possibility of it turning ont another way, but, in this case, it has not turned out so, and if any ficulleman >nsido or outside of this !-oom could point out any better way of comparin- tenders, I should be very much obliged to him. Q When the quantities are quite indefinite I think tlio only w.iy to compare the tendois is to compare the rat»-s for items in each ?-It isimi)rattic:.l)le. In answer to th«j question 1 simply give my opi- m for what it is worth. L hold that the plan «ugge.-.led for comparing tenders is ut: oily iminacticablo. or. Q. I understood you to admit, just now, that it nii-;ht be the correct way f— foo not admit it to be the correct way ; I do not see h .w it could awompliNli the object at all, unless you had only one kind of work to place under conlriict. Q. What was the great advantage in making a minute sui y. Would it not have been as well to have put down arbitrary quantities?- No ; li. ■ mimib* surveys were made for another ))urj)ose ; it was for the purpose of getting tlio be-*l line pos- sible in the country, with the most favorable gradients. , , u 1 u Q. Uad that been done when the work was let on this seen. )ii ? — It hul not been fully done; it has been done since. • u .u Q. 1 asked you the last day you were here, if you coul.l ascitain what the survey bad cost?— The book-keeper is here, and ho could inform you bettor on that |K)inl than 1 can. By the Honorable Mr. Christie : — ... »,, Q. Has the practice in this instance differed from the prai in o m the case ot the Intercolonial Railway ? — Yes. . , , ^ (I 111 what respect?— Because the contracts were let on the iuinp smu system there. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. I want a few noted cases in which the work really cost very much in excess of the bulk sum to which contracts on the Intercolonial were oiii^nnaliy supposed to be limited, a^d the cost of that increase ?— I can give the original contrac; sum, and 53 t-»,.-— n.M'-i-*^«**W«*ja'.->»'-aJ*l ^m 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1%19 (J :!■ ■ ! u 'f^ the amounts paid, but I cannot give you what the work will cost when it in all done, because the claims of the contractors are not all finally settled. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — Q. In consequence of the incompleteness of those surveys, have the Government moi*e work to pay tor, than they anticipated — for instance, on the section undf.r con- sideration ? — They had more to pay than may have at first appeared. Q. Has not the result proved that the Government have actually lost nothing? —As far as I have looked into the matter the result has proved that the Government has lost nothing by letting the work to these particular contractor! By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson :-r- Q. Have you informed yourself as to whether there was any change of the work authorized by the Government on section 15 ? — Yes ; I have informed myself, And I find that no change has been authorized by the Governn/ent. Q, Can you tell us how the change was made? — I cannot tell you in any other ^ay than I did the other day. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Were there two or more locations under consideration as a terminus for the Pacific Railway; at Nipegon or any other point? — I do not know what you mean. Q. Before you settled upon a terminus at Lake Superior, were there not other routes projected? — There were a number of routes. Our surveys extended over a breadth of country of 100 miles, probably in oi-der to find out where we ought to go. Q. Did the question of lo-^t enter into consideration ? — Our primiary object was to find a practicable route. The country was by some deemed impi-acticable for a railway ; in fact we knew next to nothing about the country ; it was absolutely unexplored until we began to look for a route. Q. Did you make any estimate as to the cost of the separate lines? — There were no calculations made ; we judged by inspection of the profiles and plans which route was the easiest; there were no calculations of the quantities or cost — no quantities were taken out, and no comparison of the cost of the several routes was made. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Still you formed an idea of which would be the most expensive route ? — Yes By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Which was adopted ; the more expensive, or the other ? — Of course, w© adopted the ono that we considered the least expensive and the most eligible. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson: — Q. Have you made recently an estimate of the cost of the lino from Lake Superior to Red River, as finished ? — I have. Q. What do you estiiniiio it at ? — 1 furnished an estimate lo the Minister ; it is confidential, and 1 do not know that I am at liberty to give it. With his permission I shall be most happy to give it. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — Q. You have the bill of works before you of section 15? — Yes; the quantities in this bill are furnished for the purpose of giving an approximate ntloa of the nature and magnitude of the conti'acl, to admit of a comparison of tenders. By the Honorable Mr. Afacplierson : — Q. Were the estimates, then, not intended to indicate the cost of tb j work when completed ? — They were intended exactly for what this printed paper, exhibited at the time, sets forth; " to give the intending contractor an aporoximete idea of the nature and magnitude of the work, and also for tlio purpose of admitting '^♦' " com- parison offenders." Q. And were they not intended to convey to the Minister, to Parliament, and to the country the approximate cost of the work ? — They may have done so, but that was Doj their immediate object. Another clause in the printed papor says : " The 64 A. 1879 it in all done, Government m undf.r con- ost nothing ? Government lange of the rmed myself, in any other linus for the at you mean, are not other tended over a I ought to go. ry object was sticable for a M absolutely — There were planH which or cost — no al routes was route ? — Yes 3f course, we igible. l) from Lake finititor ; it is lis permission » quantities in i)t' the nature » J work when I-, exhibited at :e idea of the ing '^f " com- lament, and to le so, but that i- says The 4J Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 « contractors may be required to perform at the same prices other works connected " with the grading of this section, the precise nature and position of which cannot at " present be defined. The right to vary the location of the line is reserved, and such " alteration shall not invalidate the contract. The quantities of the work shall here- " after be correctly ascertained and paid for according to the schedule of prices in the " tender which may be accepted."' By the H&norahle Mr. McLelan : — , Q. Would it have been a proper thing for a public man in speaking mside or outside of Parliament to have taken the figures of the accepted tender, as the cost of the work when completed ?— I can hardly say ; 1 am quite sure it would not cover anything like the full cost of the work. There are the rails, rolling stock, stations, etc., to be added. • e Q I mean as to the grading ?— It might have lead to the formation of some rough estimate on the subject, but that would be all. I should explain that there -was no design to have those quantities very wide of the mark. The idea was to have them approximately, as near as possible, but we had no means of making them accurate. By the Honorable Mr. Haytlwrne : — . • o Q. Might not the same system lead to the opposite result in another section 7 Might not the estimate be less than the actual cost of the work ?— Yes } in my experience the first rough estimates have, in some cases, exceeded the actual mea- Bured quantities of the work in execution. It happens, unfortunately, in three of the ^jases under discussion here, that the revised quantities have largely exceeded the first rough estimates. I have said more than once that the excess has turned out a good deal greater than I myself expected it would. Q. What time do you suppose it would have occupied you to have made an exact survey, which would have enabled you to let the work with precision ?— I 4oabt if it could be done in a couple of years. By the Honorable Mr. Macpher son : — « m. Q. How long was the survey in progress before the work was let 7 — ^The sur- ▼eys began in 1871, and they are not finished yet. ^ . . . Q. Do you mean on the section under discussion ?— They are practically finished on the sections between Fort William and Eed River, but we are still going on improving the location on the contracts recently let. There are several portions of Section B, which was let the other day, where changes, and I trust improvements, •will be made. By the Honorable Mr. Christie ;— , . i. u Q. So that, were the letting of the tenders delayed until the completion of the floi-vey, it might involve a delay of several y^ars ?— In a country like this, it might have involved serious delay. Q. As the result has proved ? — Yes. ■ By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — r. • i Q. Was the contract let the olher day on the same principle ? — Precisely. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Were not the sn'-voys fui-thor advanced so as to give a more accurate idea of the quantities?— rhey wore; but [there is no certainty whether, that the work ■when executed, will measure exactly the same as the present estimate of the quanti- ties. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. You do not anticipate so large an increase as on Section 15 ? — I hope there ■will be a decrease. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Are we to understand that the contracts which are now the tjubject ofthM enquiry, were let before the survey was sufficiently advanced to allow you to tak© out the accurate quantities ? — They were. 65 - Ki . i;*',0(»0 miles up to the end of 1870, that was done chiefly in the wood and mountain districts.. There was not so much on the plain. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q, W.ns this Thunder Bay line adopted on your recommendation ? - 1 think so. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. You are quite sure Mr. Mackenzie did not run a line for himself ?— He did not. I don't know that I recommended any line very strongly ; but when my opinion was asked I was always very happy tc give it for what it was worth. Q. There was no diffeiencb of opinion between you and the Minister ? — None of any importance. A. 1879 his particular ^ of 187 Land 875. 877. .876. jring of 1871, d over a very —a breadth of thi-ougb that mmo time, or und we could xt year. We to be tho most waH done one a route there, I made many i Red River |oing on. ho breadth ot^ is the noai-est.. nder con«truc- ly the niiarest fully on that jurvoy ? — No^' MS ; sometime* ness. I mado n, and then I ) miles, not in I 4(>,0(»0 miles itain diHtricts.. -I think HO. self ?— Ho did en my opinioft ter ?— None of 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Bi/ the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. Have you any doubt now as to which was the better line to adopt— to Nipigon or to Thunder Buy ?— I have no doubt whatever as to tho point of the navigation of Lake Superior that is nearest to Red River, and that was the great object in running the first line. Q. Can you tell what the difference in cost would be if you went to Lake Nipigon ? — We never mado a sufficiently accurate survey to Nipigon. It is not fair to ask one in my position to make estimates such as you enquire for, without proper data. If we make a guess those rough guesses are taken and sometimes referred to as accurate estimates. Q. Would not the line to Nipigon have been very much more expensive ( — I have not tho means of making a calculation. Q. I mean the distance on the map is greater ?— I cannot tell you. It is hardly fair to drive an engineer to express an opinion as to measurements, or, of quantities when he has no data at hand. SAN DFORD FLEMING Fredrick Bracn, Secretary, Departmentof Public Works, called and sworn, was examined us follows :-=— By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. You are subpcened to bring with you copies of all reports from the Minister of Public Works to the Privy Council on the changes recommended by the eiiginoers to be made in the contract for section No. 15, of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and also of all correspondence on the said subject, written or telegraphic, between tho Do partmintor any officer of the Department nnd the Engineers' Department, or any officer thereof. Have you brought them?— I have. In accordan(;« with y()ur request search was made in the books of the Department for the reports called for, and the only one entered is this which I now hand to you, marked Kxhibit F. Q. Is this the document referred to in that exhibit— Exhibit D?— VV it hout hav- ing compared it I would say that this is a copy of the report mentioned in tho docu- ment I have handed you. It has been copied in the office. There is Mr. White- head's proposal, Mr. Rowan's report to tho Chief Engineer. auirTi»iiiii 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 if It •1^. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. lEow long have you boon in the Department? — Since 1860. Q. V«ei-o you there when tho^ie buildings were put up?— No; I came from Quebec in 1865. . . , . or Q. Can you tell us how much more they cost than the origmal estimate?— 1 think the estimate was something like $900,000. Q. What was the actual cost? $3,000,000 ?— About that, including furniture, fittings, &c. By the Honorable Mr, Macpherson : — , Q. Are you aware whether wo drifted into an expenditure of an additional million dollars in the construction of these buildings without any authority from the Minister or any kind of authority ?— I am not competent to give an opinion on the subject. • • u Q. Can not voutell us when it became known in the Department that this change in the contract No. 15 had taken place ?— I could not say. These matters could take place without our knowledge. Q. Could you tell us when the fact of the change first became known in the Department?— [do not think that the knowledge of it came to me before I was summoned to produce report and Exhibit D, 22nd May, 1878. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — Q. The change had not taken place then?— No, not to my knowledge; and I am not aware that it has taken place. By t}ie Honorable Mr. Penny :— «,«,.„ t * Q. When were you aware that the change took place ?— Officially, I am not aware of it yet There is nothing in the Department to indicate it. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — . . j . u Q. Have you searched for the communication from Mr. Smith and the answer he received ?— I did not, further than the search that was made to comply with the demand of the Committee. Q. Will you look for it?— I will. ,., ^ ^o d* -f Q. Is it likely that a document of that kind would be destroyed ?— But even if it wore, tho books would not be destroyed, and the entry would be made. By tU Honorable Mr. McLeUm:— ,, Q. I understood you to say that no official action had ever been taken on this matter ? — No. , . . . u 19 Q. Was it usual for matters so important as this to remain in abeyance so long f ^That is u matter that rests with the Privy Council, who may have reasons tor deferring action. By the Honorable Mr. Scott : — .' . Q. Any action of this kind must be taken either through the Minister, or the Deputy JMinit'ter- any action so important as this?— I think it would require an •Oruor in Council. Jahes Baink, Accou.ntant, Department of Public Works, called and sworn, was examined as follows : — By tlie Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. You wore asked lo bring with you a list of the names of all persons omplojred on the Cauadian Pacitic Eailway Survey, between Lake Superior and Bed River, with a memo., detailing the duties which were assigned to them, the time for which each was employed, and the amount paid ?— I only took charge of the survey-books in 1877 Q. But, will hot the books anterior to that show the whole cost of the survey? — I suppose they will ; I did not keep the books. A. 1870 ■I " II 1^—^ '. came fVom Qstimate? — I ig furniture. in additional rity from the inion on the it this change ira could take known, in the )efore I was ge; and I am \\y, I am not the answer he iply with the —But even if ie. taken on this 'ance ho long ? ve reasons for nisler, or the aid require an nd sworn, was sons employed led River, with for which each arvey-books in the survey 7— 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. But the books are there, and you will be able to extract the information ? — I would not be able to undertake it myself. Q. What the Committee really wants is the cost of the survey between Fort William and the Red River? — I think an approximate estimate of it may be got. Q. Do you know what the gross cost has been ? — Wo might get it from the books. Q. Have you kept the expenditure in each division separately ? — I have, from the Ist July, 1877. Q. And how was it kept before that ?— Mr. Redford was employed. Q. But it is all entered, is it not? — I suppose it is all entered in the books that Mr. Rod ford kept. tj. Is he here still ? — No ; he is in Montreal, I believe. J. BAINK. CoMMiTTBK Room, 21st April, 1879. The Hon. Mr. Mackenzie was called, sworn and examined : — By the Homrable Mr. Scott : — Q. Can you explain to us how this change in Mr. Whitehead's contract occurred ? — Not having the official papers I must give the statement irrespective of exact dates. In the first place the change originated, I think, in a letter sent b^ the contractor, which was referred to the engineers. I think in that letter, or in the engineers' report, the additional expenditure was represented as being about $260,000. It was -during the sitting of Parliament that the Department had that under consideration. Mr. Fleming strongly recommended it both in his report and in verbal conversations, and I had no doubt, personally, it would be an immense advantage to the work, and, «o far as that was concerned,that is in an engineering point of view.I entirely approved ■of Mr. Fleming's recommendation. My reasons for it were these: in the first place section 15 proved to bo the most expensive part of the entire road, to the Pacific almost, so far as we knew, and the fir«t tenders that were received, I think, were nearly double those that were afterwards acted upon, as those tenders wore based upon a different kind of work and probably a different formation level. In order to get it done cheaper we determined to do a gooddeul of the section with trestlo-work of limber instead of embankment, and the consideration that I had porsonally, as Minister of Public Works, before me, was whether it would be advisable to incur the additional expense then, or let the roud go into op'jrition upon the plan upon which the contract wiis given out, and fill in with eart!< at our leisure. Otse reason for ■ ordinary monthly esl.inialo reports lospecling .ni'iall minor chiinges, such iir. .'lulling tlu; lino a few hundred yards to overconio unexpociod oloUicies, or better the line. Sucli changes wore allowed, but such a change us this was never dreamed ot. . , , q t (i. Had Mr. Whitehead an interview with you on tho suitjeet ot vhe clu.ngo C— I think he had v.iiii Mr. Trudeau and my>elf. q. Would he have loft you under ihe impression that you were favor.ible to tho ehaiige V — I do not think so. I never communicated my impiossior.s to conti actors, tj. The ohject in determining upon constructing it tirsL with liestio-wori< across ravines was for tho jiurpose of getting through to the praiiio country early ?— Yes; and as cheaply as possible. Tho impression also was that once the contract was complete, tiie trestle-vork might bo tilled up at our leisure, as they liave done on the Great Westorr. v.v.d ether roads at less ccit. Q. The change of system, of course, put an end to that ?—Oi course. {). And rcridert ! it necessary t(t ir.'.ur tho whole expendiUac at once ? - Yes ; of C0v4iB0 it woulu, if carried out throughout. 6« A. 1819 Mr. Florning'* ) Doputy Min- 1, an I tlinught I waH ()(»rrect ,tee, hr'wover, from tho engi- the finauuiut oua, it in more nother matter & Whilohottd's ■ for earth, and wore difforont noiit, it might woro oxcculed ; miilcing such ■ have done so, alf, that would • Mr. Fleming J wont to Eng- ig before that; a whole. tiio quantities lender?- My 3au and mynelf ilysis, if made, lower, I think recdon, as my • whutiior I am lia not know of Tovernment? — notice of the iuvure, a e not nl engineer ? — minnr ctuingeH, oJ ob>l:i('lo8, or i this was never thi! clu.ngc ? — I ravorahlo to the , io contiiictors, stlo-wori\ acrof-i* y early ? — Yes ; iio contract was avo done on tho >urse. ;it once ? - Yes ; 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Bi/ the Honorable Mr. Penny .•— Q. Mr". Marcus Smith Mtated that when ho got up there, he was quite surpriHod to find that the change had been made ?— Yes ; he was bound at once, on seeing Huch un important chang** to knoAT the authority on which it was made, because before ho left for the inspection of tho railway, he had, as usual, very full conversations with myself, and he left with instructions to have the statl" reduced wliere it was possible, and also with many other instructions that I can scarcely minimize in evidence further than to say that upon every conceivable subject we could think of about tho works we lui i ronVerences— that is Mr. Smith, Mr. Trudoau and myself— so that ho would go away fully informed on the views of tho (jiovernment on tho subject before leaving. , .. m • q. So that even if he had such a letter as that sent to him by Mr. Meraing, it ■would not lie suflicient authority to have the change miulo, and tho work go on ?— Certainly not. Q. J):d you discuss the change with him before he left? — No; we did not. il Did you toll Mr. Smith that Mr Fleming had recommended the change very stiongly? — No; ho knew everything that had been done. Q. lie say,> in ovidenco that he did not ? — I am very much surpri sod at that. It is almost inconceivable that he did not know, because the matters were talked of in tho Uepariment, and he was Acting Chief Engineer. It had been spoken of with Marcus Sm th in the Department, during the winter. Q. Hut you do not remember discussing it with him before he left? — We had at that time decided not to do it, and the intimation to him would have been of a posi- tive and not, ot a negative character. If wo had determined on ^having tho change made he would have been so instructed. ti. Mr. Fleming says ho got the impression from you that you favored it? — From an engineering point of view I did, and I do now. I could not, however, authorize such a change to be made. It had to be done by tho Government, aa it was loo serious a matter for the Minister of Public Works alone. I always placed implicit conlidence in Mr. Fleming as an engineer, and I have no doubt in the world 1 exi)ie>sed myself favorable to the change, providoil the financial reasons did not stand in the way. (I. At page 4'J of the report of this Committee, you will find that Mr. Homing j^ays : — " I liave no doubt that I took in this letter and submitted it to him, and nscortainod that he favored the idea, but I have no distinct recollection of it. The ])roof that he favored the idea is that he recommended it to Council ?"— I did not recom- inend it to the Council. I sent it to Council for consultation in tho most formal manner, and 1 i-houk! think Mr. Fleming would very naturally state what he has stated. I cer- laiidy iiiuloivlood that the idea was favored by the Department, and I have nodoubt Wo said so to Mr. Rowan. It was favored by ev'ory engineer in the Department from an engineering point of view, as it was favored by myself ; but that was altogether apart from iltf execution at that time. My report to Council a few days after Mr. Fleming left was this : — . (^Memorandum.) (No. !),1Y2.— Subj. 9t5l.— Ref. 15,748.) Department of Public Works, Ottawa, 12th Juno, 1878. Tho uudei-signed submits the accompanying report of tho Engineer-iii-Chiof oj" the Canadian Pacific Railway, upon the proposal of the contractor for Sji^^ion No. 15 of that liiulway, to complete the roadway with permanent rock and earth embank- ments tliroughout, in lieu of the wooden trestle-work originally proposed for portions of the line. Beauectfulh' submitted. (Signed) A.MACKENZIE. A true copy. Minister of Public Works (Signed) P. Bracn, : . Secretary. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1871^ ■ i'A I If the Doi)art'nont had at that timo dccidod to approve of it, I would liuvo said in this order " which is mibmittwl with the rocommondation that, tho wiiine be adopted." By the Ilunorable Mr. Marpherson : — Q. J)o you remombei' wholhor you diwcusHod with Mr. Fleming the probiiblo «'Orree».ne^s of Mr. Rowan's estimate?— I have no doubt 1 did. Wo di^cussiid every- thing ultout it, and 1 have no doubt we discussed that point, uitiiough 1 have no distinct recollection of it. Q. The actual quantities have oxcee; lliu probublo i^ciiMsoil ovoiy- ^li 1 liiivo no ' — So I observe. t of tlio fOiigi- . at tlio prices, \ cost, plus Mr. I II viigiio rocol- iijicrior to Rod ^8 an ostiia.ite ir tho purpose to the quiinti- , and tlio first nodin*! 1y called vork was yo far jtion U. This atoH would b» v\ng the work adopted ? — Yes of the vulno of Drcoloni.'il Jlail- me of tho addi- 10. There was rough couiitry a level tract of )0d8. An enci- aterial would oe id that a great eetof mo8H and sort existed. I quantities in a pits to ascertain sirous of build- ction from Lake o start from the to let the first lidly as possible, than we would liently advanced )ut no survey ex- where morrasses 'or, instance, on 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 187J> section 2.5 we found out bcfoj-e wo had proceeded far with tho contract that wo could Hhorten the line by a mile and threo-cjuarters by making a tumiol of five or six hundred feet through rock, and [ had iio howitution in adopting it, althoii-li it incroanod the expenditure. A more exhauhtive wurvov would have detorniinoii that in the firnt instance. Thoif was always this to bo said, that in any cu.-k overywhoro that would have developed more procisoly the quantities we would liavo obtained iu every case— tho country has lost nothing in tho adoption ot this plan. By the Honorable Mr. yi'Lelan : - Q. In this plan is it not ensontial to have the prices consi stent ono with tho other ?— It is hotter, eortainly, but you scarcely evor got tenders in, where the prices are consistent. For instance, in the Inst two tenders accepted but a few weeks ago, the laying of a mile with cross timber ill one of tho tenders is $180; in another it was 11,450. In another item, iron piping, I notice is 84 i)er lineal foot and in tho other it is $50. You will find in almost every one of the tenders rocoivod for publio works some extraorclinary discronaiicy of that sort,that seems utterly unaccountublo ; but you can hardly say you should vitiate the entire tender if tho total comes out rightly as being the lowest. Q. But in this tender that you speak of, the price for timber not being consistent with the other items, the tunneling sooms to bo still more inconsistent; it is $100. 000 below any other tender for section 15? — Yes ; the tunneling is vory low. Q. You had doubts, you say, whether this was tho lowest tender under the increased quantities that were proposed ?— No ; I did not say T had any doubt. It was a question I thought would likely have to be considered before assenting to tho change. Personally I had no leason to boliovo it was so, because I had never gone into tho calculation myself, and it would require vory elaborate calculation to do BO. A.MACKENZIE. Mb. T. Trudeau, Deputy Minister of Public Works, called and sworn, was examined as follows : — By the Honorable Mr. Scott ; — • Q. Do you remember when this jiapor was prepared ?— (Exhibit F) Yes. Q. Do you recollect if any authority was ever given for making the change sug- gested or contemplated in that paper? — No authority was given. Q. If the Minister favored the work and was disposed to recommend it, is that the sort of paper he would send to Council ? — No ; he would put in a clause recommen- ing it. Q. When did you first become aware that the change was made ? — Since the opening of the Session. , By tlie Honorable Mr. Maepherson : — Q. Had you any conversation with Mr. Fleming before he left for England ? — Yes. Q. Did you mention to Mr. Marcus Smith that Mr. Fleming recommended this change ? — I do not recollect that I did particularly. Q. So that as far as you know Mr. Smith left Ottawa without being aware of Ml. Fleming's recommendation in tho matter? — It is very difficult for me to recall all my conversations with Mr. Smith, because I saw him every day, and had a great deal of conversation with him; but I am not aware of having specially spoken to him of this matter. By the Honorable Mr. HaytJiorne : — (J. You say you became acquainted with tho change since the commencement of the Session; be kind enough to tell the committee in what way you first became cogniisant of it ? — It was by a i:ote from Mr. Mackenzie, asking me about it. 63 m ■42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 * By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. Mr. Smith says when ho wont on the work he found it was then going on and he tolographed to the Department. Did he communicate with you for the au- thority for this change ?— No ; Mr. Rowan telegmphed to Mr. Smollie, asking him for a copy of Mr. Whitehead'solfer to do this worJi, with Mr. Fleming's report thereon, and Mr. Smollie sent him a copy. J5y the Honorable Mr. Scott : — (J. Have you scon that correspondence ? — Yes. (i. Is it in the office now ?— It is not among the papers in charge of the Secre- tary of the Departmeni of Publ.o Works; it is in the Engineers office. (i,. Wore you aware of it at the time ?— I was not. Q. You have learned of it since this enquiry commenced ?— Yes ; it was nothing more than a demand by Mr. Rowan for u copy of the offer made by Mr. Whitehead, and Mr. Fleming's report. Q. Was it from Mr. Rowan or Mr. Smith ?— It was froni .'ir. Rowan. By the Honorable Mr. Penny ; — Q. "What date was that telegram ?—Sopiembor. By the Honorab'e Mr. Scott : — Q. Wore you aware at the time whether corrospondenco had been sent from Mr. Smith, or Mr. Rowan on the subject of this change? — 1 was not aware of it at the lime; 1 learned it lately, since the enquiry commenced. By the Hmorable Mr. Cornwall : — (i. Tlion, M-i far .w vonr rccollectio'i goes, there was no telegram from Mr. Smith to the Duparliiiont of Public Works?— No. By the Honorable Mr. Scott:— (J. Any communication from the Chief Kr.giuoor would Lave been registered when ohiiiined? — It would. • ♦ Q. The answer would also be registered ? — Yes. l^. Would the Engineer bo authorized to mako^^o important a change as that, without tlio authority of the Minister ?— No. Q. Dill the certitif atcs that are issued bj' tho Engineer for the progress osti- matos ('(.mo under your observation ?— No ; not always. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan: — (i,. Would an ongineor, believing that the Minister favored the change, con- sider that sufficient authority to make it — would ho be Ukoiy to?— He would not. Q. Would ho, from the custom of the Department, bo likely to consider that tho Minister favoring the change would be sufficient authority to make it?— He would not. .Ry the Hotiorabie Mr. Macpherson : — Q. \)o the certificates that are granted by the Engineer for progress estimates come under your observation ?— They do, if there is anything unusual in them; if the Engineer draws attention to the fact that it is an unusual certificate, it is brought under ray notice. (I. Arc tho quantities Jis executed chocked wUh the original estimates on which the contract was based ? — The resident Engineer on the works forwards monthly to the District Engineer a progress estimate; fr.»m him tho estimate passes to tho Chief Engineer, and tho Chief Engineer, or his assistants go through it, and chock it. The Engineer then delivers to the Secretary of the Department, a certiticate that so much work has boon executed under a certain contract, and that a certain sum of ra(^ney is payable. From the Secretary the estimate goes to the Accountant. Tho Accountant simply brings to me a prepared form of certificate to the Finance Department, for the payment of the money. Tho details would only bo brought under ray notice in case the Enginner drew attention to somblhlng unusnal. Q. It would be the duty of the Accountant to draw your attention to it? — It would bo the duty of the Engineer. 64 A. 1879 then going on >^ou for the au- ie, aNking him report tliereon, te of tbo Secro- it was nothing Ir. Whitehead , ran. 1 sent from Mr. ire of it at the rom Mr. Smith leen registered hange as that, I progress osti- e change, con- B would not. >nsidor that the it?— lie would i^rens estimates lal in them ; if te, it is brought mates on which I'us monthly to passes to the through it, and ont, a certitioato that a certain the Accountant, to the Finance ily be brought nusnal. ition to it? — It 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 olid rock, the quantity was largely exceod«d ; in loose rock it was oxceo led lii'.y per cent, and in earth th"ro was nearly three tini > the quantity removed that was in tho original e-tiimalo ; should not that havo atlrai.Jod attention ? — 1 have Mo cloui)l it did attract attontion. Q. Are the ooi'titieatos issued monthly ? — Yes. By the H >noi-able Mr. Mi:Lel/m : — Q. And with :)Ut tho engineer calling altontion specially to some item the certiti- cales are paid withnui enquiry ? — Yos ; progress estimates. Q. And so long as ho goes on drawing ceriificatos without culling attention to any item, thoy are paid ? — That is a very broad statement. Q. It is usually paid unless altontion is diroi;led to the certificate ? — The origi- nal estimate of the cost of the work couhl not be greatly exceeded without attracting the attention of the Accountant, hut we all know that the quantities submitted in the lirst estimates are only approximate. .Some items are under and some are over, even in the best est' mates. [t is By the Honorable Mr. Penny : - ij. Is that tlio system that has })i'ovailou for a hmg time in the Departnieut '/- By the Honorable Mr. McLehm : — Q. On the I:iie:c')loiiial Railway the toi.il amount to bo paid to the contractor was known, and you and the Accountant would not go lieyond it ? — That was under a Commission, arui not under tho Do]>'irfnient of Public Works. By the Bonurable Mr. Macpherson : — (J. Tiie whole amount ui' money ostiniatod for the removal of solid rock was $82.).t)i)0, and the cortlticatos \aid up to tho 23lh ut February wore for 81)41, i)34 ; for loose rock the ustimale was $52,000 ; amount paid iJ81,T44 ; for ojuth excavation amount estimated, S2'J,(J0O ; amount exocu'od, 882,993. iShould not these grea!/ excesses have attracicd atlenli;in when the certilicalos were issued monthly ? — What I moan l>y staling that tho iOnginoer .^liould draw utiontion,is that ho should make an official report if he found anything very much greater than what was lirst estimated, and my impiession now, is that (,hero waM no official report made. I boliovo tliat tho eugineoi-s have slated at various times to ihe .Minister that the quyn titles were larger than they had oxj)ected. By the IJonorable Mr. Me Lelan : — (I. Had you reason to suppose that those were approximate to c^:act quanfitie.'j ■when the contracts wore lot? — t know from the way in which qua'aities aie taken out on fii'st profiles, that such quantities cannot l»c very correct. I. isalmost impos- sible until a line has been cleared of trees, especially in a rough country, to locate it properly, and T understand that those quantities were taken oiit from a profile which was made of a lino siinply chopped through the bush. It is only when you got the line cleared, about 100 feet wide that you can clearly see the undulations "of the ground. Y'ou can then correct the lino and change' it, and tho quantities are thus likely to be very much disturbed. Q. Then you would not have taken these as exact quantities?-— Not tufficiontly exact to make a lump contract. 1-5 m I: ■«*««^<»W;*B*.Wi*W'"W »I-««L' 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 ■ t' 'ii. By the Honorable Mr. Macphcrson : — Q. Would you considci- ihoin approximuto?— I would conwider them approxi- mate. Q. What deviation from tlie estimate of loose rofk— 3,000 yards— would yoii consider approximalo?— The estimated value of the whole (seetion should not dilfor more than from ten to tiftcen per cent. Q. That would be an likely to full under, as to exceed the estimate, would it not? — It might. By the Honor aide Mr. McLelan: — Q- What itomM arc Miii:sl, likely to vary in a work of this dcHcription ? — Uem« connected with excavation on a side hill might vary very much. Q. Earth and rock, 1 suppose 'I — Yes. Q, Then, in deciding on tenders it is essential to look at the prices of earth anu rock? — It is. /?(/ the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. V'ju uo 111)1 content yourself with looking at the totals ? — We are very much guided I'V the totals, hut the |)rices are analyzed also. Q Tlie consistency of tbe tender is considered? — Yes. Q. And the consistency of the prices for the various items? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — (^. By the increase of certain items this may not have proved to b* as low as isome otiier lenders ? — It is pohsihle. Hy the Honorable Mr. Penny : — (^. Hut do yii Know wiietlier ii was really so? — I have been told it is not. The Chief EriginiMTt .'.lid give you a better opinion on that. The vviines> was then asked to prepare a stalemenL showing the comparative cost of the woii. :is moneyed out under the different tenders oil the original estimate, and untiO, the change in the contract. T. TIIUDKAU. ti 'I' I. if '?■ F. BuAirrj, .Secretary, Department of Public Works, recalled and further ox- anii!ied iis follows: — Hy the Honrirable Mr. Macpherson : — (J 1 1. ive you any information to give us to-day about the correspondence?—! saw Mr. Smith and eiKpiired of him iihnil that telegram that he stated in his evid- ence h.id been scut be: « asking for ilr. Fleming's rev'oinmondation and report, and tha» I had forwarded bill such a documoiiL. lie said that he had not sent any message ti) me, nor hii! lie received itiiy report from rao. The message had been setit by Mr. Rowan to dr. SmelLie in Mr. Fleming's t)ffii.'e. There is no communica- tion of the kind in ray i'.'p.trtmeut, and oouseij[uently no answer was sent. F. BllAUN, , 1 CuMMiTTEE Room, v' Monday, April 28th, 1879. ilr. Maucus Siirru re ailed and fuither examined : — „ By the Honorable \fr. Macpher son: — Q. Prom the Red River west you have described us the country leading to Pino Jlivor Pa-is; will you pica o continue that do^c^iption?— In 1877 I made an explora- tion from Red liivor to Lulvc La Biche, abmit 750 miles. U.--i^ik^-AU'.\'--:-\ -lin A. 1879 hem approxi- is — would yoii uuld not differ , would it not? ioHcription ? — r* of earth uiiu iiie vory much bo aa low as it irt not. The B comparative t tiie original DEAU. ind further ox- spnndonco ? — I i ill his evid- 1(1 report, and not sent any sage had been no communicju sent. JllAUiV, 28th, 1879. eading to Pino ado an explora- 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 o.\|il.)ruui>n nnide, exluiidiiig from the west side of the Rock}- Mountains a( Uio divide of the continent near the Giscombe I'ortago, which is really tlio water- Q. How far is that route north of the Saskalchewan ?— It varies a good deal. It crosses the Saskatchewan at Kort a la Corne just bolow where the two branches join. We cross the whole stream with one bridge inst«ad of two. Then wo are along on the divide, which is a low divide between the Saskatchewan and the Beaver Vailey. The crossing is about 1,200 feel, and there is no other stream or crossing of any importance until we come to Beaver liiver, which is only about 100 feet wide. 1 h;id ilic crossing of the Arthabasca River measured, which is from 800 to 1,000 feet wide, approximate measurement. Then I ascertained from the lluilson's Bay Otlicois that the stream, which is the outlet of Lesser Slave Lake, is about 300 feet wi !e. I had previous iidbrmation as to the country west of that from Messrs. Ilort't/.ky and Macuiin, who travelled acrosi* those hills west of Arthabasca fiivor, and sinick the Ijosf^er Slave Lake about the centre, and then down to the Peace liiver fioin whence they travelled on the north side of the I'eace River to Dun vegan. They iii\c ;i ilc-cription of that portion of the country. lUj the Homrnhlc Mr. Haythorne: — ti Is ihe bridge on the stream, at Lossei- Slave Like, an important matter? — .\(i; It i- a stream of about :i0o feel wide, but not a deep valley-. We had an across -shed of the continent. The streams flow nortLi-east and soulii-west trom there. It is 2,400 icoL aliKve SCI level. The exploration cxtendcii by Fort Macicod tbrouirh the Pine Jlivii I'a-s, anii some fo'iy miles beyond ii ! > .Mud Jiiver. The pai'ticulars of that ^'xploration art; given in the Jieports of lS7h, Aj)|ien(lix (r. (i. From Luc la Bic!.e to llie jxiint of the Pine River Pass is liow far? — [t is reekoncil 1, (»()(» miles from Red liiver to the Piiiu River Pass. 1 may stale in making that map, we availed ourselves of all the intorination we could olii.iin — I .r instance, Pallisei's Report, which is a vorj' excellent (Mie. 1 also sjient seviti-iil weeks in the vicinity of Luc la Biche, Hdnionton and Victoria, and 1 got all the iiifot niation I could get. i obtaiin'd a very large amount of information from people who had i-esided there, some of them for twenty- rive years, and had travelled ibroimh that country. 1 may mention Hisho]) Farren, who had a mission there. He not only gave me all the inlormation he c<)uld himself, but he sent after hunters and Irajiiieis who knew the country t(» inform me on dilferent points. 1 also got informatioe froiu the Hud- son's Bay C()mpany'.s olhcersat different posts, and our own surve^'ors spent two years in making surveys. The map is laid down troin information thii-> oblaiiKKJ ; but you must uiKlcrstand distinctly it is given a.s a general map. For instance, I don't say that the whole country shown on the m;ip as deserts is all desert, — there may bo some paicbo ol good hind in it; nor is the wiiole cwuntry marked as nud'alo 2)laiiis, buHalo pjains — tbere may bo some good sections ol eountiy through it. TIk-^c coIdvcI sections merely show the j)reponderating character of the soil as described in llie margin. I could ii'jt go into details; and that was the objection Mr. Fleni tighas to the map, for people wild would take contiMcis based upon the information obtained from ii would lie ili.-appoiutcd in timling the country marked wheat land, not all wheat land, The report does not alwiiys go with the map, and for fear peojile might be misled by tlie map without an exjilahalion, 1 took an extract from the report, and attached it to the mar^:in of the map. From Lac la Biche to Pine River is 350 miles— where we lirst strike the Lti Biche l?'ver — that is 40(» miles trom Red Rive to Pine River Pass. J will ic:id you a description of the country from the report ol LS78 : — " A lino drawn from Winnipeg to Fort a hi Corne, near the confliienco of the two branches of the Saskatchewan, would cut off the south-west angle of Lake Miinitoba, skirt the north-eastern base of Riding Mountain, cross the north end of Duck Moun- tain, and pass 15 to 20 miles north of Fort Pelly and across the Basqnia Hills. If this line were extended through the Beaver Valley to Lac la Hiche, thence by tlio Lesser Slave I^ake, so as to intersect the Peace River near the mouth of Smoky River, it would show the general course of the great fertile holt of agricultural lamls in the North-West Territory. It is not to bo expectcJ that in a stretch ol' over 1.000 miles 1-5J «7 -\ 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 187» if: ^,1 i^ the soil will bu iinifoiuily good. The fortilo bolt i.s accordingly very irregulai'. oi'teii^ iiiterseiMoii bv muskegs and lakes, and low rangoM oi' hilU on wliii'li tliO soil is of variable (luafity i thoio are, liowovor, vast tracts of extraordinary Icrtilily. Both the (|uality of ilie soil and the solubrity of the climate improve lowiii'ds the north- ■est, whilst investigational have shewn that oven beyond IVacu Ilivor the prodiirtive powers of the land are astonishingly great." By the Honor able Mr. Penny : — Q. You talk of the fertile bolt as beinir here to the north ?— I said to yon last year 1 understood that a number of gentlemen had represented that the fertile belt was along to the .'^oulh of Lake Manitoba, and along the liiding and Duck Moun- tains. 1 am satislied tl.at the soil from Ked River along by the south of Ijake Mani- toba and u]) the Little .Saskatchewan is gocnl land. Jiut between that and the Touch- woo(i Hills the soil is light, anil beyond that the buffalo plains are almost sterile, and destitute of walei'. By the. Honorable Mr. Macp/ierson .•— Q. What you have road from the iieport is a general description of the coun- try ? — Yes; the general foi-malion of the country. At the boundary line the allltudo is liigli It is not far from the divide between the waters flowing into the Miss ssippi from the south, and the waters flowing north. The land near tlio boundary line is very high, as it falls to the north and north-cast, the soil has been denu led in the course of centuries of its productive (lualities, which have been deposited on the lower hn-els towards the north. Consequently we find that the soil is light, and arid near the boundary line. Then there is a gradation takes place. We have better soil further north, but not generally fit for agriculture. It is a grazing country— what i.s called the buffalo plains. There are long tstretchos without water intersected with few valleys, tbro.gh which flow largo streams. As you go still inrlher north the Moil impr(>ves, and where you see on the map sections marked with green color, it is a fertile but, light soil, more suitable for tlio growth of barley and (jats than whoat,^ although some of it would grow wheat, 1 dare say. The country shown by the buff color on the map— that is the furthest to the north — is of a much lower altitmle, and the soil is generally heavy clay loam more suitable for wheat growing, but it is inler.socled by hills and muskegs in many places. fiy the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Does not the Saskatchewan intercej)! all those rivci-s flowing to the south ? — From the do.scrij)tion ot the country it does, and we have all those streams to cross. You will find in the Engineer's Jteport a dcscri]>tion of the character of that lino Li^ the lIe])ori of 1877, i>ages 37.5 to 381, inclusive, you will find a description given of almostcvery in: porta nl stream and valley; besides thesj streams there are \vh;iti> called •' coolies '"--wide, deep lavines, some of them over 2,000 feet wide and lUO feet deep; but the; e is not much water in them, only small streams flowing down ti.o middle. There is a very large amout of bridging on that Hue. On the Pir.e Jliver line wo cross the Saskiitchewan with one bridge below the forks of the river; consequently with one bridge we ])a5.s all the water that comes in there fron\ a va.st exient of country. The bridge, of course, would be a costly sli-ucture, but very little larger than whore the same river is crossed on the other line. Q. Do you mean to say that all the waters flowing in toward.s the Saskatchewan from "ho boundaiy lino v.'ill bo cros-cd at that point?— The greater portion, and it Avill all ])ass under one biidge, instead ol' the gi eat many bridges on the other line. Q. Is the new line from Selkirk westward laid down on any map? — 1 do not know that it is laid down on any Government map, but theie aie two private com- panies a])plying for diarters who have it laid down on their maps. It is almost a straight line from Rod liivor, passing south of Lake Manitoba. Q. Where about will it connect with the located lino? — It could be taken as I have shown you on this map. I may mention that in 1877 I made an examination of the country, with' a view to seeing whether it is practicable to take a line south of Xakc Manitoba. The result of that examination is given iu the Iteport of 1878, pp. 68 ,■;■";■' «.-.' .-V7J.--i;vK«i»^- vfe-'-'-'i A. 187» 42 Victoria. Appondijt (No, 1.) A. 1S19 rt'gulai'. oi'ten tliO soil is of rtility. E(»lli I'lls tliO liol'ill- 10 iirodiiuUvo to you last fortilo bolt 1 Duck Moun- [)t' Lake Maiii- 11(1 the Toiicli- )st stoiilo, ami of the ooun- le tlio alllluiio he Miss ssippi uiidary line in lonii loiJ in the il on tho lower irid arid near ivo bettor soil ntry — what is torsooteil with lor riorlii the .'on color, il in s than wheat, ('n by the bull' r nllitudo, and iny, but it is ) the south ? — •cams to (TOSS. that liiio In jitioii given of ti what i> called lUO foot deep; n tiio inid Q. Would llie woikh have l)Oori any heavier tor t»he diHtanco, miUi for mile ? — It would have been about tiio wame mile lor mile, and wo would have hai] a jjreat redui'tion of rooky eountry. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. The original lino was located by Isandford Fleming, was it not? — Yes. (}. Wan he aware of the conformation of the country you speak of? — A survey had been matie by Mr. Cane, reuident engineer, on section 15. By the Honorable Mr. Scott: : — Q. Have you been over thin line you sponk of? — No; but as I have said thero was a survey made of the lino 1 have mentioned by Mr. Carre ; but the difficulty was that tlio contract for section 14, from Cross Lake to Selkirk, had been lot, and a con- 8iderablc jioiiion of it was under construction before this survej was made. I had nothing to do with it myself ; but T understood from conversations with Mr. Carre in the office that 8350,000 would have been saved by the adoption of that line. Q. Has he been over both lines?— He made the survey, and 1 hav« seen the plans and profiles. By the Honorable Mr. Mc Lei an : — Q. He made both of the surveys ? — Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Macj>/ierson : — Q. So 3'ou think if the present location west of lied River had been made oarlior it would have affected the location east of the i-iver ? — I think so. If they had choseit the line south of liuke Manitoba some years earlier, before sect i(m 14 was put utidor contract, it certainly would have affoctod the location oast of Red River. By the Honorable Mr. Hay t home : — Q. Do you consider that t!io route r-outb of Lnke Manitoba would avoid the deep ravines that were co sidtuvd ia^t Session suth great obslaclos at the Assiniboine?— The Government have only dete. mined to con.siruct a certain length — some eighty miles. By the lionorable Mr. MitrjJicrson : — Q. Is that west, of Red River? — Yes; I think the ])ortion along up to the south end of Lake Manitoba is ail that they have decided to t-onsti-uct, and it does noi extend as far as the Assiniboine. 1 only sjieak from what 1 have seen in tho newspapers. By the Honorable Mr. Penny:— Q You agree with the (lovernment that this i.s to bo a colonization road. Is it to be continued across the continent as a colonizulion road ? — In locating the roal I have tried to locale the trunk line, so as to embrace as much of the agricultural and mineral lands as possible. Q. But would you go out of your load in other places to lake in such a country, would you deviate twenty or thirty miles at any point to make the road a coloniza- tion road ? — This is a special case. The inteni .)n at first was to adopt tho other line. Q. But if you found o! her places where by going twenty or thirty miles out ol your way to take in a good countiy, would you deviate the line for that purpose ?— If there was a section of country decidedly sujjorior to another I would go out of my way to jiass through it, and the line could subsequently be shortened. I have no doubt that both of those lines will bo constructed in tiie future. After tho country gets well settled up it will bo necessary, probably, to shorten tho through route. If the line had been made, as laid down on the map, from Selkirk directly through tho Narrows, there would have been other parties apjilying for charters to build a road south of the Lake. By Vie Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. But had you been called upon to advise as to which route should be selected' before any money had been expended west of Rat Portage, would you have advised a line south of Lake Manitoba or not ?— I don't know that they had the informatiotb we have now. The reason of its being taken south of Lake Manitoba is that it has beea, •eceitained that there is a vejy much larger quantity of fertile land theie. 70 A ^81<> 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 « t'ni- milo ? — '0 h:ti! .1 great —Yes. f? — A survey *ve said thero difScuUj was let, and a con- made. I l^ad 1 Mr. Carre ir» ine. have seen the I made oarlior- ey had cho.»oi> UH put utidor (void tho deep ssiiiiboirio? — -some eighty p to tho south jes iioi cxlond evvspapin'!:. 1 road. Is It 1 and g the roaJ icuiturul ich a country, id a colon iza- tho other line. miles out of t purpose? — go out of my . I have no tho country tirough route. ly through Iho build a road lid be selected' bnve advised le informiitiotb hat it has been, eje. But if you had been free when snrvoyinir from Rut Poitage wo>^l ward, would you have jtassed south or north of Lake Manitoba? — I don't, know ; I would have had to examine the country. If it had been decided to run soutli of Lake Manitoba, I would taken a >nore direct line. Tho road was run in tho mosi direct lino for Swan River Valley, but now as it is changed to tho s(»uth of Lake Manitoba, it would have been better to have crossed Eod Kiver furthoi* south. By the Honorable Mr. Hope : — Q. Is there not great difficulty in finding a foundation for a bridge south of Selkirk ? — It is not a good rivor for foundations. It is a very deep soil but there are points, at the rapids for instance. I would expect to find a I'ock foundation in tho river. Q. Is there not groat daiigoi of the ice blocking up the river and drowning out the people by building a bridge houth of Selkirk ?— There have been ice jams at dif- ferent periods that have flooded tho country I am told, to a depth of several feet on the town side of NV^innipeg, and for .several miles back. Q. And the bridge may add to that danger?— It would depend upon where the bridge was located. I do not think it would atlect it in that way if it were built at tho rapids. I wish tho Committee to undoi stand with reference to this question of h)cation, that 1 do not find any fault with the location through by the Narrows, as it was evidently intended as tho most direct through line, and they had u dilferont view in making that location from what the CJorernniCiit has now, Jiy I fie Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Oao is a through lino and tho other is a roundabout way for the purpose of coloni/.iition ? — That is about it. (I. When you visited section 1.5 in August, 1878, did you find that tho cli:iractor of the woik haii been changed? — There was not much change then, but they wore making tlio rock embankments tor tho reception of tho oarlh, in accoidanco with Mr, Uowiui's plan and report thai ho submitted to Mr. Fleming. Q. \Vhat action did 3'ou take thon ? — 1 did not meet Mr. Rowan on the works. 1 wont along the works myself and examined them with Mr. Carre ; and when I arrived at Winnipeg 1 mot Mr. ({owan, and asked him to o.\plaiii '.vhat ho was doing with roiiaid to the works, and wiiat plan ho was a'-ting upon. I understood him to reply that he had instructions from Mr. Fleming to act in accordanc'o with tho reconnieM»r. Rowan to telegraph to Ottawa ?— When I said I had telegiaphed to Ottawa, I thought Mr. Rowan had done so in my name. Q. Have you a copy of that telegram with you? — (Telegram produced.) (Copy.) EXHIBIT H. Tele jr am. WiNNiPEO, September T, I878. Send copy Whitehead's letter offering to fill banks with oartli, and Fleming's report thereon. (Signed) J. H. ROWAN. To W. B. Smellie, Ottawa. 71 -r-ivr^si^^Jr^.'i^f .%tt«»(ii. uf) ^ " „r_T«,M'^'-4V»Vw'~ J' I -f' 4. -t ----• jSr,-'.^^^~ft^^*.-^S '■>?-'! r.r^tTs:^*^^^-"^*'^ ' 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Lettfr. Ottawa, Sej)! 10, 1878. Dear .Sill, — As i-c(|Uostoil in your (olefcfiMin of the 7tli iiist., I herewith onclotie copy of the vrliohs loirospoiidoin'o on the mibjoct of poiinanunt oinbunknienU r.u Coti- trivct l.*), Instead of trosile-work, viz. : — 1. IIoj)Oit Itv Mr. Fleming, dated 22nd May, 1878. 2. •' ■ Jiw. H. Rowan, dated 22nd May, 1878. 3. PropoHjil of Jos. Whiteiioad, dated 6th November, 1877. Yours truly, (Signed) W. B. SMELLIE. P.S. — No. 103 are the documents specified in your telegram. Jas. II. Rowan, Winni]rc to send you a note aHkini,' if I might draw on you for a hundred pounds, and gel no luiswer, would you expect me to draw on you for that amount ?— Thin is a diHorenl mutter. The recommendittion of oiiginoerH are gcnoriilly adopted unles.s they are dispulod, without any letter at all. Bij the Honontble Mr. Macpherson :— , , • Q. Do you mean that such a report MS Mr. Fleming's would not he 8«»t 'n, unless it w;is understood by him that the Uovcrnment would approve of it?—! thmk it would be iiudor.-,lood that it would bo approved ami Had been discussed butoro hand. Q. Is thai the usual mode?— It is very often done. By the. Honorable Mr. Pfnnu : — Q. Is u usual to agree to a thing before the recommendation is inade C— It is very oftoii discussed verbally before the recommendation is made officially. Bij the JJonorable Mr. Macpherson :— Q. Di.'t Mr. Kloiuing say who told him not to speak to you about it?— Not about that, but about general business. Ho wa-i asUo I to make a report on the section of the railway to the Pacific, and Mr. Gamble was asked to make a report, but 1 never saw either of their reports until they wore submitted to th« House. Q. Then you went up there, not knowing that any recommendation waa ma that the change should bo carried out?— I did not know it. Q. Then when you went there, you found that the change was being cttvrie the Government?— No. Q. You allowed it to continue without any authority ?— Beyond Mr. PlemingH letter, 1 had no instructions or no authority from the Government. Bi/ the Honorable Mr. Macpherson: — Q. Did y(tii report to the Government when you 0i»,OOC>. I t- ': m Wl liy tlitllinwrnhiv. M<\ CoruHoU : — (i- Yon liy t/ic Ifimonihle Mr. Pehivj : — (I. Tlieii your cnginoeriiig opiiiioriH wore based upon thu opinions of tbo .Minister ? — No. Tlierearo twoopinionH — eiifjinoerinjr o|>inioii(* — and tiie policy ol tiio (iovein- ment- to Ite con.-idertd and rt-coniiUid. It it wen simply a (juowtion of engineering opinion, tbat would easily enough bo settled. By\the Honorable Mr Mc Leldn : - Q. \h it UrtUi.l to discuss with tho Minister projiosod onirincoring changes befor* puttih^^ tbom in tdrmal shape in writing? — It m sometinjes done; and in fact thiB very bulij<'(a was a good deal discus,sed l)efore the Committee— the general |iriiui|)le of it. tj. Having explained to tho Minister a moposod change, and you tin. ling hiin opposed lo it, is it usual to go any further? — I do not go any I'uitlier. That is llio reason why the thing is discussed beforehand lo a' id useless coriespondence. ii,. Then il lie assents to it you put it in foriu.ii shape? — 'I'hal is my impression That is the way it had been done, and that is tho way I had dono other things my- xolf. By the Ifonorohle Mr. Penny : — Q. Then whenever j'ou write a letter for a thing and do not yt't an answer, you lake it for granted it is not to be tlone V — I take very good care not to write a letter unless I expect lo gel whai I write for. liy i he flon-irahh; Mr. Cornwall : — Q. Wouldlil not have been better to have telegraphed to the Dejiartmeiit of Public Works?— I don't kno^r. I merely wanted a letter and telegraphed to Dltawa for it. Q. Who h;id the authority to rrakc the change ; was it tho l''nMiiceiing IVparl- ment, or the Deparlment of Public, VVork.s ?— Any correspondiMiie llial is in the Hn- gineering Department, I telegraph to them Ibrit; if it is in the Pidilie Works Depart- ment ] telegraph lo the Secretary for it. I was nnt olegraphing lor any iiislrucliotis, I was simply telcgr:ij>liing (or a copy of the letter. Q. If you had telegraphed lo the Public Works Department, the w would have been brought to their notice, would it not? — 1 don't sin •■ (i. As it was, it was not brought to their notice? — 1 do not telegraph to them. tj. Why did you not telegrajdi for any order made on thai lepml of .Mr. Flem- ing's, when vou oidy got the leport of Mr. Fleming? — I have ImIiI y<>ii (Ik! reason. 1 assumed that il had been approved of. 1 had no leason to doiihl U):it it had been :.pproved, and 1 understood Mr, llowaii to say that Mr. Fleming had instructed him to go on and do ihat work there. I did not" want to come into conflict with Mr. ^'leming, as it would appear as though I was douliling his policy in doing so ; and I can tell you it was a dolicale matter on my part lo interfere with him at lliut lime. I would not have lot the woik go on on Mr. Uowan's word, but when be told me the authority 1 simply telegraphed tor the loiter, Q. Js that letter an authority ?— It is the authority upon which Mi-. Rowan was acting. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Is it a sufficient authority?— I think I told you had every reason to believe that Ml'. Fleming's suggestion was ap|)roved by the Minister. Q. Did you think that expenditure of 1:^60,000 was juslifiablo on the basis of having " no reason to doubt " ?— You may question whether it was. I thought I was right. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — Q. Were you still on the ground when the answer to the telegram arrived ?-I was in Winnipeg until the letter came. 75 lole thing ose il would, viiow. I did not f I 4'2 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 P t; "1 Hi/ the Honorable Mr: McLclan ; — Q. I)i>l I iiiiili'r>(fiii(l 3<)ii to say tliiil ii >\vaii ;,';i.vo yini to iiiiJorHtivml lliat ho liud instiui'lioiis tVom Mr. Floniin:,' to pi'ocDiHl witli ilio woik ? — I umloi-Mtood liiin mo; that In my iiii|*rt>sMii)ii wu> that tlio thiiij; had licenall jollied. I imiy have misiindor- etoud him, but that wivh my undoiHtumiin^. (/'OAI.MITTEE Room, Tliiirsday, Ist May, 187!». Ue.nuv C.\uhk, callod and mwoi-ii, wa.s oxainiiioil as fblli)ws : Jiy the IJoHonihle Mr. Alucpherson : — (^ Did yoii sursoy the lino of iho Oaiiadiaii Pacific Railway from Rut I'orfairo to Kod River?—! did. (^. Did yun niii a lino soiiih of tho located lino? — [ did. (■l. At what point on Iloil iiivor diil you como out?— Wo struok tho samo point with holli lines. Tho Koulh lino joinod into tlio prosont lino noar Brokou lload Kivoi'. (}. Is that n(»ar Solkirk ? — It is about 22 inilos oast of it. il. Wlial point or: tho Ked Jvivor did you Mtriko? — Holow what thoy cull Sugar Point, at ilio present cro.ssinf,'. (^. At.Solkiik? — 1 did not locate tiio lino at the present croHsing at all. That M'as located by some ono eluo. (l What is th(? character of tho work between I{at Portage and as lar west iw you w<'nt on tho Houthern line ? — It was very rocky for tho first 25 miles from Rat J'ortane west, and I considered I was out of trouble then wi'h tho heavy rock work. \Ve would strike small knolls of rock now and then. l^. Was the country more of a prairie country than on the oihor lino?— ^ Yes; wo struck tlio jnairie country sooner. Q How many miles west of Kat Portage ? — It was 42 miles before it became anything like a level flat. Q. How many miles until you got out of what you considered the rough rock countiy ? — Twenty-live or twenty-six miles. Q Uii ilio located lino how many miles did you run through tho rough rock coiuiliy ? — About ;!7^ miles. It would take in a portion of section 14. Q. Would the southern lino, if oxtondod to Rod Rivor, have boon an easier lino to constrncl tiiaii the located ono? — It was my opinion that it would at tho time. Q. iJid you make any e-.liinatoof the dill'oreiice in cost of the two? — Yos ; a very rough e.itiinalo Q. W^hat was it?— I am speaking from memory now. I have the figures, but 1 have not got lliom hero with me, and I would not like to say without them. Q. (Jivo us tho amount approximately ? — 1 think it was $3(10,000, or something about that. By the Honorable Mr. Hay t home: — il. In favor of the .southern line? — Yos. Q. Is the country equally difficult on both lines? — No. <,^. Wliich is the more difficult? — Tho northern lino. />'// the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q, Is ihat climate made on trestle-work in both cases, or solid embankment? — They wei'o both made on the same basis, but with very inadequate data to go upon. Q. Wore they both on trestle-work ? — No ; solid embankment. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. If liie line south of Lake Manitoba had been adopted as the continuation of the Canadian I'acitic Railway, would the southern line that you surveyed have been a preforablo location to the one adopted betwoou Rat Portage and the River? — I should say so. w A. 1879 i; thai was the idea. liij the Ilononihlr Mr. Srott .■ — (^. Have you any notes that yon to,)k ai the time ? — Yes. (i. Was your siii'voy of the soulhei n line with a view to locution ? \Va^.l it hiudi aline iis woiild enable you to Judne of quantities? —Yes ; it was a location lino Both lines were veiy rough; a good cleal of steep vork — side hill stop'ng moi'o thai; one to one, and with no cross sections, it was im[)ossiblo to in:i.ad by him whitdi will a[i|tear as uddi;nda \o. 1.) Bi/ the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Mr. Smith, in explaining bow it was that be l(.ok .Mi. Fleming's Ictlci' as the authority or iitmsi anthoritN", said tbal the iact of such a letter having been written to the Minister ot Public Works indicalcd that jiievious to the b;llor having beou written, the Minister of Fiiblic Woj'ks ami Mr. Fleudng bad b;id conversations on the Mubjcct, and that Mr. Fleming mn>l have been aware from those covei>ations that thoMinistcr of rublic Woi ks lavoicd the now project. \^ iluit state of things the one that prevails in the iH'ptirtiniMit, or i> it the wtiy business is usually done? — Con- versations arc not taken as authorily. Wc endeavor to do ovorytbing iti writing. The Minister never gives important orders in conversatiiui. Q. You would not, tborcfore, suppose that the tact that, Mr. Fleming addressed to the Minister a reconimenchttion, was proof tbtil the Minister bad previously approved of the recommendation therein conttiined ?— I would not. Bi/ the Honorable Mr. Marp/wrson : — Q. Is it usual for the Chief Engineer to niiike any imj)orlant reeommend;ition without previously talking it over with the Minister, and pr>)biibly with the l)e[iuly Minister al.so? — ft is very much the practice for an engineer to di.sciis:, with the Minister tind myself, the necessity of making a certain recoiamendatioii bcibre doing so. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. Did he discus-t this one with you? — Mr. Fleming was just on the evo of leaving for England, and he was in a very great huny, ;uid he di I not discuss this very much with me. ^ 77 UT^au^- ■:^3^Jsxxi^iiSi:aMMt^ia^ 42 Victoria Appenoix (No. 1.) A. 1879 By the Ilom/rahle Mr. Mac^/henon : — (J. I tliiiik it would lie vory uxtnioniiiiaiy if tni officer in a dopai'trnont ioacleuii iiniK ilaiit rei'omiiK'ndatioii without diseussiii!^ tho necessity and policy ot it with hiH sujjcrii'i>:. Would you not consider it strange if Mr. Fleming made an important recommeniiatici without having first said something about, it to the Minister or your- self, or talked it over with you? — This matter was more discussed between Mr. Eowiin and myself. T TUUDH.VU. ^\y. .) ■v>ri;s II. I\o\v.\n, (-a'.loil and sworn, was examined a. follows : tiij the Hononiblc Mr. Mai'^h'rs'ju : — <,/. Are you the Divisional iOngir.eC" who has charge, among other works, o*" Sec- tion 1;") of the Pacific Uiiiiwuy? — Yes, 1 Ui.i Disiricl Kngineer, and Section 15 is in my district. (^. Iliive yn\i wm\ iho cvidiMice 'j,ivcu i>y Mi-, i'lcniing and .Mr. Marcus Smith i* — No; 1 have not. [ liave Just airived in town, and was hefore the Commons Conur.ittoe, and have not seen th<' evidence given before this Committee at all. I A ))Oi"tion (d the evidence given liy Mi-. .Marcus Smith and Mr. Fleraing was here read tn the witness. | }>ii lit ■ lionoraliU Mr. Mitcplifr^on : — <^. L liter \N hose insti'uctions otlie contractor Irid suggested if he wascompoUe I tocurry out tlie work in that way. Mr. Smith suirtea with me i'lom Winnipeg to the North- Wcr-t Angle ol the Ln'-''? of the Woods to go over Ihe woik with a view of satisfying liini.>eli'a.^ to those points to which I had cailed his a!tciili(ni, ami others. Wa got to tho Noiih-Wesi Angle some time late in October, and, by some unfortunate accident, the sieariKu- was not there to meet us, as 1 had arranged thai it should be; and Mr. Smith turned l>ack without going over the work. We then wont over Ci>ii'raci \A, or a portion of it, ami he expressed himself very much p!e;i-cd with the manner in which the work had been carried on. We then came back to Winnipeg, and I submitted to him some of these facts with reference to Contract 15, esjieciall^' with reference to carrying the trestle-work and banks across the water stri be t-ontended with, and f i)roj)ose.l certain changes which would obviate those dini<'ulties, illustrating them with a sketch, lie was pleased to see the force of the arguments I aldresseJ, and approved of tho change. The change was this : That, whereas I was instructed by the Engineer-in-Chiof to have the rock brought from the various cuttings put into the embankments, so as to make them up to three feet above high-watjr level, and broad enough to carry an earth eml)aukmont, I suggestetl that to economise material and reduce tho cost of the work, which l.was able to show by -'ignres it would do, that instead of making a full rock basement in the water, it would he better to make rock sides to cany trobtle-work, leaving the centre to be tilled in subsequently with earth. I had calcu- •78 51 A. 1879 rtrnuni made an 'J ot it with hiH 3 an important [iiiiHtoi- or your- ) ijctwoen Mr. JI)i*:AU. r works, o*" Sec- tion 15 is in my areas Stni till' — ons Comn-.ittoe, jraing was here iiari'ativo fb'in, rnumencerner.t. u' cross soclicns i-(/hie<', I fourid ' the contractor, iri{, if wc liad to ol' constructing went ifilo the result was that m ho came to •li had occurroil iij)elle I lo curry 1^ to the North- w of satisfying M-s. We got to nnale accident, it nliould be; Ve then wont jlf very much on. Wo tiion with reference jrk and banks \ appro .Ki mate lorLaia changes olch. lie was of the ciumge. oer-inOiiiof to monts, so as to r\\ to carry an luce the cost of ■(i of making a sides to carry . 1 had calcii- 42 Virtoriii. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1379 lations to sliow Iiim that if wo followed this course, the embankments filled up with earth bclwecn tlio rock walls would be cheaper than embankments with a full rock l)ase and enrlh on top, or a rock base witli tre-^tlo-woi'k on (op, to be Mni)sequently tilled in with earth when the trestle-work decayed. Mr. Smith entirely approved of the sugi,'r;-lion, an(i gave me pei mission to make this change. The !ie;vt day, or a day o,- i\\i> I'ltcrwariis, as well as 1 can remember, he started for the east to go home; but before doing so Mr. Whitehead had an inteiview with him and with myself, in which be .-uppiemenled my ju'oposition in reference to makin;^ the banks in this inaimcr acj^ss the water sti'etches, by saying it was a groat ])ity tiiat the whole con- tiai t wiiuld not be made solid, instead of using ti'cstle-work, as it would be a perma- nent wuriv instead of being temporruy^ and perishable. Ml/ tht' Honordhh'. Air. Penny : — , (l- Who -aid tha- ?— Mr. Whiteheail, the contractor. That was, in fact, afurther jiroposjiion, not mily should the, trestle-work be done away with over the water strotrbo, an 1 -olid banks be nuil;' hrough, as 1 had suggested, but that the whole thing ^lMllld III' made solid, and the trestle work entirely ilone uway with ; and if that was done he woiili! find the material, no matter how far it had to bo hauled, and put it in wiihout charging for any extra haul on such mateiial. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — t^. What was the extent of your partial proposition, as compaicd with that of Mr. ^^'llilc':^■ d ?--Mv partial proposition was, wherever there was a water stretch on the section, insiead of putting in full rock banks a> a base Uic the earth work, that wo should put ill sides of rock, and make up the full bank of earth and sand. I'ln! oiigiii:!! plan was that every void in the banks, from one end of the contract ii> the oihci', which we had not mateiial onough on the line to make up, was to be ■^iippiiei Willi irc»tle-W(;rk. .My prt»i)Osition eliminated fro;n it that j)ortion which wa> to go acioss water stretches. By tin' l/'/n'/ndile Mr. MrLelan : — (■l- 'i'liu )nginal jilan was lo make a ro(di base and set the trostle-woi-k on it? — Yes, the original ])ian 1 was instructeil to follow was, in the case of water stretches, 111 build a rock base to three feet above the high-water level sufficiently wide to carry a subsequent earth cmli.ankment, upon which, for a time, only the earth was put in; tiestle-work C(jmI<1 hv ]ilaced. The object in view was to keej) thetimboroftln; irostle- work out of liie w.nler, so that it would not be o.\'po:.eil occasionally to air and oeca- ^I'lnally to water, and thei-eby be rotted. ,",' ilu: li'onornhle Air. Srutt : — 'i. \Vb.a, jiarlH'itlar period was this? — In the latter end ol Novoinber, 1877. ^' ' . \Vhiiehc:Kl'ti proposition was in .addition to mine — that the whole trestie-woik <. ,1 the coniiact should be aittindoned and everything should be made solid ombank- inent, Mr. .Suiiib then lelt. and, having heard these propositions, stated that he w.iidd siiliiiiit the whnle matter to the (!overnmenl when he returned to Ottawa. '.rii.it wa.-. al.iied in this respect. Liil be- fore leaving I wrote to him urging the necessity of it, and as I was going to Ottawa to forward that int'oimation as soon aspoMsible. In Alarch, feeling that the linie \u» passing away, and that nothing was decided on the matter, and that Mr. Whitehead was piessing to know what was to be done in retbrcnce to his letter, 1 submitted a report to Mr. yndth on the subject, a veiy lor,g report, giving detailed tigu)es and facts in reference to the ir.alicr, showing the comparative cost ot doing it one way, and ot lioing it in another, upon such data as 1 had in my possession. Jiy the IJonorahle Mr. Ppiw>j : — (J. Is therejjort you speak of now the one we have before ns ? — NTo ; it is not. Jh/ the Jlonorable JJr. Curnuall .— (i. Mr. Eleming was not here in .March? — Xo. (i. That is why yoii reported to Mr. Smiiii?— Yes; Mr. Smith wa- Engineer-in Chief at the time. (J. And you sent tlie report to Mr. Smith ? — V..'s ; I sent a re])oi-i "-i", , ■which will be seen when the report i> brought down. By the Honorable Mr. Scotf : — Q. Was tliere any memorandum made by Mr. Smith on tiiuL repu i ? say. Having sent that in, [ was engauod in other matters, detail^ as ta'- ' acting etailii ? — I ci;uld not nd works here e. Q. How fiar, on the average?— 1 think ihey have bad to go twelve or fifteen niiicH, and I do not know but twenty miles, frum the lino, V/e have jised a good deal of timber already on the work. The culverts that we have had to put in have used up a considerable amount of timber, and llioic is a good deal of timber work done on the contract already for bridges designed by the Department. . By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — • ' Q. Of cour-e you ascertained during the survey what timber there was ?— To a limited extent we did. Q. In specifying the quantity of timber to be used in the work, would you do so witliout knowing where the limber is to be had? — The timber is to be had by going a distance for it. There was nothing said by the Department about it. In- directly, the contiactors were warned that the timber would be pretty bard to get, as in one part of the specification it was stated that that class of work might be done with suitable timber to be found in the country. Q. The only roasMi that you have given for the increased cost was the incom- pletenois of the surveys at the time the contracts were let ? — A part of it is due to that fact, of course, and a portion is due to the readjustment of tho grades. As I nientioiiod a few minutes ago, I had requested Mr. Fleming to modif/ thegrades, as I was afraid that we could not get tho timber to make the trestle-work, A modification was made, and a portion of the increased cost is duo to that; and another is duo to tho fact that we had only tho centre sections and no cro^s-sections taken. You are are aware that there are iilaces on our line tiiat show bank, but where there are actually cuttings. By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — (i- I understood Mr. Smith to say that the grades were lowered on account of this complete change in the character of tho work throughout; is that so? — I do not know what Mr. Smith said. Q. What was the object of lowering the grade ?— The object in lowering the grade was to improve the grades for traffic, and lo benefit the work by getting rid of some of the heavy embankment. The country is all sidling. Wo are off one side hill and on to another, and from one lake valley into another. The centre of the road being moved three feet from where it is at present would make from fifteen to twenty thousand yards more embankment, because it takes us off the solid bank, and runs us into watoi'. By taking off earth and putting in a little more rock work it will take ofF thousands of yards. Q. It had 00 roforonce to this change ? — No ; it was done before any change was Bpoken of. 84 A. 1879 jof luniJirac and tliorc i.^ wbut is eat trouble will) 11 square 12 x IJ very fact nccos- )o wo could not t in cieptii I had blioit timber. 75 feet — 75 feet bor a considcr- velve or fifteen ive (Utied a good to put in have of timber work t. ere wan ?— To a , would you do 9 to be had by t about it. In- -ty hard to got, t might be done was the incoin- of it is duo to 3 grades. As i »• the grades, as I . A modirtcation otiior is duo to ikoii. You are here there are I on account of at so ? — I do not vering the grade ing rid of some no side hill and ' the road being fteen to twenty ink, and runs us irork it will take any change was 42 Victoria. Appondi.x (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. I find this in Mr. Smith's evidence: ho wns asked "Should there not have been platforms or conlurny put in on those soft places?" His reply was: ' [n di.s- cussipg that question with Mr. Rinv.'in, I said 'When you saw that those embankments were swallowing up much more earth than was originally estimated, why did yon not think of suggesting some means by which the sul.'siilonce could bo arrcstofl?' Ho said he was carrying out the original pl.-m, and that the doopcning of the oll-lako ditches would bo sufliciont un lor tho circum'ttancos. i replied that I would have coiiluroyed it with timber." Do you think you should have corduroyed it with timber ? — No; I do not. It might have been done that way ha I wo known at tho time it was going to savo «uch a serious work in some jdaccs as it ilid. (J. You think it would have been better corduroyed with iimbor ?— No ; it will make a better job this way. Jiij the Honorable Mr. Conunall : — Q. Mr. Smith was askod what wj\s the object of lowering tho gitule5, and his answer was " It was to reduce the cost of crossing the ravines and deep dcpiessions as much as possible, and to get material, and more nearly balance the quantities of excavation and embankment." — Mr. Smith's statement is not inaccurate becau:se it docs not tally with mine, for there are points in the wcrk in which that ettbct is pro- duced by tho lowering of the grades; but as I understand the question as put to mo by thoHonoriiblogentleman heroit was done vvith that object, but it was not done with reference to to the substitution of full banks for trestlc-woik. There were somo places whore the baidc was put into tho lake, and trestle-work would have taken nearly tho same quantity of rock as it would for a narrow high rock bank nearly all tho way across, sufficient to carry tho trains. By lowering the grade at that point wo got tho quantity of rock just sufficient to give the amount required to ett'ect that purpose. Q. It is in consequence of tho lowering of the grade that tho total cost has been increased so much ? — Thfit ia one of tho reasons that has increased the quantity of rock work to be done ; but it has largely donroast' an entirely disproportionate amount of work that will have to be done before the i'o:id is completed with solid banks; that is to .say, we have added on a yard of rock, and have taken otf ten, fifteen, or twenty yards of bank that M'ould at some other time have to be made up. By the Honorable Mr. Murpherson : — Q On whoso authority were those changes of grade made ? — They wore fur- nished to mo from the head office. Q. Was tho head office then under the charge of Mr. Fleming or Mr. Smith? — Under tho charge of Mr. Fleming. Tho contract and specification, I think, state that the right of making a change in the grades at any time during the progress of tbo work is in the hands of tho Engineer-in Chief, and ho may order it to be done without any extra claim on tho part of tho contractor. It is a schedule contract, and he has got to bo paid for whatever he doos. Q. Mr. Smith sa^s there was a total ^change in tho character of tho work ? — I have not read his evidenco. By the Honorable Mr, Hiiylhorue: — Q, Wore the quantities in the schedule consistent, or could tho contractor gain by tho change ? — I think it is probable that ho c^nld I called attention in the report to the fact that while the country was going to bo saved money if tho change 1 sug- gested wore made, there was no doii'a in the world it would be a benefit to tho con- tractor, because it was continuing work th;n i.e was getting a high price tor, and doing away with work that he was cetling a low price for; therefore, if it advantaged tho country it also advantaged the contractor That was a matter I had nothing to do with ; but I called attention to the fsn-t, and I expres-od it as my opinion, that tho contractor should be called upon — if the Government a)qjrovod of tlie siii:^ostion of mine, by which certain works in connection with tho ^contract would have to be done — to do thofo works at prices proportionate to t e rates he had for the snwedris 85 42 Victoria Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 of work, and which aie low prices. For instance, ho had a low piico for lirst-class raaeomy. If we put in masonry at other points in consequence of mnliing permanent banks, my suggestion was that ho should bo required to put in second-class masonry at a proportionate rate for what ho was doing first-class masonry. By the Honorable Mr. Macphcrsm : — Q. How was his price for timber?— His priocs for timber wore, taken on tho whole, low; for rock excavation, high ; lor earth, high ; and for loose rock, high. Q. Tho eflfoct of the change has been, or would have been, to diminish very much the quantity of timber required, and to increase tho rock and earth-work ?— If the change is carried out, the quantity of timber will be very coniiderably reduced ; Ihoquantity of rock will not beatfcctod at all, but 'of course the quantity of earth- work will, because you have got to make up tho banks in place of the trestle-work. Tho quantity of rock will not be affected by the change one way or tho other. By the Jlonorable Mr. ScM : — Q. But tho changes authorized by Mr. Smith, how do they affect tho contract?— Thoy do not affect it. Q. Masonry does, because you have to build foundations for your trestle work ?— J^o ; we put in timber bridges at these points for the present, according to contract. Q. You have not built up the masonry ?— No ; we have adhered to the contract because I had no instructions otherwise; but it is roy opinion it would have been much better to have put in permanent sti-uotures. I have adhered to tho contract and put in timber briJges at these points. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall : — . Q. You have adhered to tho contract, except at certain points at which Mr. Smith authoi-izod you to make change. ?— Wo have done no masonry, but have ad- hered to the timber structures where culverts should have boon piit in, and will ultimately have to be nut in. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan :— Q. Is tho contractor at work now on the section ? — Yes. (.1 In what condition ii the progress ?— We are about as near as possible arriving at that jiosition that we must go on either Avith tho trestle-work or tho banks. If I am not instructed to put in the banks the trestle-work must go in. By the Honorable Mr. Christie : — Q Has the timber for tho trestles been got out, or any portion of it ?~Thero is little or no timber out lor the trestle-work as yet. By the Honorable Mr. Macphcrson :— Q. How long would it take to complete the section by the other plan ?— I could not answer that question right of. Q. Can you ap|)roximately ?— Tho contractor takes a very sanguine view of it, and ho thinks ho can do it very rapidly ; but I am not quite bo sanguine. Q. If the banks were made solid, when do you think tho section would bo ready for business?— I think it would be quite possible to run trains over tho road by the setting in of next winter. Q. l)o yoii mean next autumn, or a year from that time?— Next autumn it wouid be possible to run trains over tho road, but tho work would not be finished. To make jp those banks the contractor will be obliged to put in temporary trestle- work to haul the earth from a long distance for the banks. When these are partially filled up tho trains could go over that trestle-work temporarily. Q. To complete it without incurring any extraordinary expense to accomplish it, when would it be finished ?— We could not do tho earth filling in tho winter, and It renders it more difficult to say, because it would depend greatly on tho state at which the work had arrived in the fall. If it had not advanced gufflciently far then, It could not bo finished before next spring. If tho trestle-work is adopted, I think it IS doubtful if it can be finished before next snrino-. 86^ " A. 1879 30 for flrsl-clasa king permanent i-cluMs masonry , taken on the rock, liigh. diminish very earth-work ? — oi'ably reduced ; inlity of earth- lie trestle-work. 10 other. the contract? — trestle work ? — ing to contract, to the contract oiild have been to the contract H at which Mr. y, but have ad- ut in, and will ossi bio arriving he banks. If t )f it ?~Thore is plan ? — I could uine view of it, lino. would bo ready he road by the !fext autumn it lot bo finished, iporary treatle- ise are partially to accomplish the winter, and on the state at jientl}' far then, pted, I think it 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. When do >ou think it would bo so linishod as to warrant y?7 2 1 for- warded to tho head oflico tho rough ].reliminary survey that had boon made. Ihat was destroyed by the tire when tho oflices were burned here, and we had to do the work all over again. That was one of tho portions we bad nothing to show lor at all after the tire, and a portion at Tic llivor. „ ,, , Q. As you wont through you left some marks, did you not?— los ; of course wo liad our bench marks, but the levels had to bo taken over again. Q. That was in 1874?— Yes. By the Honorable Mr. Penny :— , o v Q. That fire, I suppose, was partly tbo cause of tho survey being so largo .'— Yos. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q How much did it increase it?— I could not answer that. Thore was a por- tion from Ea»le River to Rat Portage, and from Pic River to a few miles oast of Michipocortin° of which the notes were lost. I think it was in 1874 a party was sent up there to locate tho line, and a trial survey was run through again. Wo had some roucrh notes on a plan or tracing or something, of where the lino had boon run by tho previous engineer, Mr. Jarvis, and there were some difficulties that I romemborod were found on that line, so I tried further south for another lino and got a better one with ihe grades I was instructed to got. I think that was in 1874. O What next was done ?— After that I think we ran another line further south, as it was suggested wo could got a better lino by following the shores of Lake of the Woods, and approaching more closely to tho North-West Angle, and then turned back a^ain to the eastward of this rough country. Another survey was then made, and a re-locatiou of tho work i s it is now being done. Modified locations and improvements have been made up to tho present time. Wo have made some changes in the location of tho line that have been a decided iinprovoinont, on some suggestions made by AJ.r. Smith himself. , ,, • i „„„^ Q. Who mado the location surveys?— Mr. Carro, tbo gentleman now in charge of tho division. I have no doubt he can give vou some information with regard to the time occupied in tho surveys. It is a pretty hard country to locate a line ot railway through. By the Honorable Mr. Penny .— Q. Have you got the instructions by which Mr. Smith authorized you to make certain changes with regard to the water stretches ?-They were verbal instruc- tions in the office. I will hand you a copy of tho letter which 1 wrote to Mr. Carro, acting on those instructions. I wrote it immediately after. Mr. James Eaink, Accountant, Department of Public Works, was rc-callcd and examined as follows : — By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Have vou brought a statement of tho cost of the survey between Lake Superior and Rat Portage, and from Rat Portage to the Red Ri^'c^'J-No J^*'^®""*- I thought I could have obtained an approxiraata esiiniato from finding out tho ditter- -ent enl'ircers in charge of the work, and tho cost for each party; but I could not " ■ 87 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. mO' oven get U,a . Tl.o Ix-oks wore not kept to ^hoxv tl.o oxpon.lifuroH of oat-h par Iho la^ cgl.tyearH, and I l.avo no oonlml over ll.cn. Tl.lrc is a person <.noi I pointed who attends to that cIush of accounts ' ' ThJ^' ^^''"'■\''"''' ^''i" •'« f"'-"!.!, tho inloim/uion wo remiiro?-! don't TsTlf l«i7'''''''"'T'™'".^^'^ ^^"^74 W0.-0 niadoupbvM.Vo and 1874 to 1877 wore made up by Mr. Ka.lford, of Montrcid. ' ^ ^ ' The^%Ir^nTtTn.rZ7]\'' '!'\''f "^'''° «urve>in« of tho dilTerent HocMons? Iho} wore not separaod the Ia.t few years, heca.iso thoro wore snrvovs .'oi both ea«tand west. Infact Earn entirely iirnorant of tho m.-itte. ""'°->''»"' (l loii are the acf;oun(ant of tlie Dopartinent? -Vc^. ty for iy ap- kdow. from -No. nix on Mr. Makcus Smith rc-cal led : — By the Honorable Mr. Marpherson .•— l.nJi" J™^'^" ^''« ';«I'«''t ^^'•- ii"«'"n said ho made to you in March 1877 ?-No I mh "' e ,ort?t' dl " '"•< "> '"'' "'--^^--.-1 -y mLory that Ihe,^' Vad b ^m hTvc?,ot^S.t if ;.nV V '^"^*-'';",'»"«'^ "> ^r. Uowan-^ ietior at Winnipoi^, but I was very busy at th tT^ T '^""'"^'""f '" "'« ^'^^ "^^v. It was in Mircl , and Senate Committee Room, .Monday, May 5th, ISTSi. Mr n^mtiV^J!? ?'"" ^^''^«.»-o':"'l«><'. "n.l presented a written ronlv to the letter of folbw*!^"^ "''•'""■' '" '''" ^^PP'^"^'-- «"'» hi« "summation was continuei as MTorkMhaftS'Ihnn^r l^'V''''" ^"°" ''"^ '" '^'" ^^"^^ tl'^t before I went out to tho SSte«ofMr Roll i r^''M'^"l''"P^ nchedulos were made from SeSedino w il f^,?n • •^''? ^•'- ^ '«'"i"K'« report was sent in. If you compare the onibanlrni ./ sP"*"' 2"«".^'^'''' ^^^ '^'" ^"'^ '"' ^ad been intended to fill tho ombankraentg up with earth before I went out there at all. £y the Honorable Mr. BaytUrne :— ti-esl iwor^o'stnrHPr'^ 1'^' ^"V 7''^'"'° '"'"^ ^«^'« ««o that tho change from ing Ml Eowln's evi itn '"""^^ «";t>«"k'"ents was already in progress ; but, on hear- ^vJB\:^tZlo^^^ ''^''^^-^^^^^ actually in pro- fcTnomSn?. o,SnH? '" '^'T''^ '^^^ ^'""'l lakes which would have tho^etfect of Suha ti!Tnn "'■'• • ^*''^' '^^ ^"d«^«tand your former evidence, it was to the eSnce that tW^ w7"' 1" ^'TT ^»^''«"ghout the section ?-I have stated in my Xosed change SfrV""^^^ ^"'"••^^^^ ^'^1^ th? ffmanv morSL P .T «'"'?«n^^'"«"tB M^ae the first thing that had to be done, ceitaX^crteninirH ^T ^'"P","^ ^f^''" ^^^ '''^'^ ''^"•^ ^« P"ti"; b"* ^^e^ tTmber for hisS U ^.""'"^ T'^ """^ ^"'^"'« ^'^^^ contractor had arked for bills of Sge'^.tr'c^lBingttT:^^^^ *'"° '"^ ""'« ^^''^ °^^«^'^«' «-P'^ ^'^ '^ f- othe?me^mberronh?!pf t^« '"'"Pyes^ion on my mind, and I think on the minds of S -rSlI^ Sli K- ^""''"'^'xc'^'t,'^™' considerable expense had already been wSk^had now n.^.- r^'^r^"- .^^•■•?«^an'«<=^iJencoled us to suppose that the m- he other? Tl J. '^■''l '\' P'^T* ^^^" ^ determination must be come to one way Tthink n il'Tvi r.ri^ ^''T' ^T ?'"' ^"P^-^«"«" that there was mucdi done^ the rock w^uK^^^^^^ corrected the impression, and said that the distribution of earth? ''^"^*''*"^^'''''''^'**^«'"«'^' economical distribution of the 88 A. 187^ 42 Victoria. Appeiidi.^ (Xo. 1. A 1879 jach pavty for 1 ^pooialiy ap- [ tloti't know. lor, mill from 3cMonH?~No. foys going on ilio 1877 ?— No, I ei'o had been inipoif, but I Marcli, and [ t, but did not th, 187(1. tho letter of continued as ontout to tlio e made fi'om you comparo ouded to fill change from but, on h ear- sally in pro- the cflfect of it was to the stated in my sed with the to be done, in; butlhey 3d for bills of f tor a few he minds of ilready been oso that the 3 to one way much done, 'tribution of ition of the Bi/ the Honorable ^fr. Cornwall : — Q. How irt it that you Hhould have Hupj)rcHKod all mention of this visit to worlvr< in i877?— I do not remombor that I was asked if I was there in IHi"? t^. 1 askoil why suppress all mention of it ? — I was not asked the (i[uestioii. (i. How is it yi)U suppressed all mention of Mr. Jlowan's letter to you in March, 1878 '( J)o 3-ou deny the receipt of the letter from Itowun in March, 1H7H, having rofercnco to those changes ?— I think I have given erldenco already that I received u loiter from Mr. llowan which I did not consider at all; a letter with son»o estimates. (J. Then what do you mean by saying you knew nothing of those proposed changes until you went on the works in 1878 7 — I said I knew nothing of their hav- ing being brought before the Department. I knew that Mr. Kowan sent in an esti- mate to me, which I merely glanced at, as I was very busy at the time I received it. It seemed to me to bo a sort of estimate on some changes that would affect tho cost of the work, but [ never had time to go into it, and 1 never submitted it to tho Depart- ment at all. IJoforo I had time to look into it, Mr. Fleming arrived, and Mr. iiowan made a fresh proposition to him, so that I never went into it at all. By the Honorable Mr. Haijthorne : — Q. 1 think that the first intimation that tho Committee had that tho change had been resolved on for the crossing of those lakes, from trestle-work to stone and earth, was the verbal communication which you made to him yourself, at Winnipeg, in tho autumn of 1877, which ho communicated to the division engineer, wliicli has verified the fact and given it date ?— There was a special case that came before mo, : a small length of two lakes about a mile, and the distribution of tho rock that way was better, in my opinion, and more economical than according to tljo instructions of Mr. Fleming. I approved of that change for that portion of the work. 1 mentioned it to Mr. Maclcenzio when I came home, and ho approved of it also, but I gave no general approval of tho .system. I gave special instructions that anything they had to propose to submit it to me, and that they were not to take this as an appioval of the general change. ■ v By the Honorable Mr. McLeian : — Q. You submitted the proposition of Mr. Whitoliead, and the report of tho engineers, but I asked you is tho report Mr. llowan sent to you the only report in the Department recommending the change, and you replied " that is all I know of in the office " ?— I have never seen that report since. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall :— Q. What became of tho report ? — I do not know what became of it. Mr. James IT. IIowan was re-called, and examined as follows : — By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. You promised us schedules of tho estimated cost of completing tho work under both systems. Have you got them ?- I did promise it, but I have only been able to get one copy completed as yet, I had so many papers to copy for another committee. The schedule 1 now produce as Exhibit "I," is an approximate estimate. 89 42 Victoria. Appt'iulix (No. 1.) A. 187U CANADIAN I'AC'IFK; ManITkHA DtH'l'HK'T. — AiTiioxiHATis KsTiMATK of Cost ti) CMm|.lctc, at Coiitrac'l. rali'K ninl Sflieiliilo laltfi- hoiiiy revised; — Also, ii]i]iri).\iriialc eo.st to eomi)leto, at eontract rates, tlie ])istriv't Kiit,niieer, ilateil tlio Fiiih of Mareli, 187^, ami Twonty-.Secoiiil ol Description of Woik. Contract Rates. Schedule Quantiliei. "Solid" Rook, "r.ou»e Rock, "iiBd"Eiirtli," quan- tities liein(( reri.sed. — Oust to coniidute with Tasile- 'Quantities. I Amounts. Is' ..,: Clearing per acre. | Close cutting do Orubbinn (includinir «iii<» ditcher) do Molid rock excavation p. cuh. yd. Loose rock excitration do Earth excavation (includinpr liorrowine) do Kxcavalion in olf-tako ditclies beyond Railway limits do Under Drains p 1001. ft. Tunnelling for Railway (sectional area equal to 15 cubic yards to the lineal foot) p, lin. foot. Twenty feet Tunnels for Streams (12 cubic yards per lineal font) do Sixteen feet Tunnels for Streams (8 cubic yards per lineal foot) do Twelre leet Tunnels for Streams (4 cubic yards per lineal foot) do Eijrtit leet Tunnels for Streams (2 cubic yards per lineal foot) do Six feet 'I'unnels for Streams (1 cubic yard per lineal foot) .■ ,'. do Bridge Masonry p. cub. yd. Crib-woi'k in abutments and piers of bridges (includ- ing timber and stone lillinp; do Rip-Uaj) do Uridge Superstructure — Tiinl)er--40 feet span per span. Square Timber— 16 in. by 12 in per lin. ft do do do do do do do do Piles, driven., 15 in. by 12 in do 15 in. by 9 in do 12 in. by 12 in do 12 in. by 9 in. 12 in. by 6 in.. 9 in. by 9 in.. 9 in. by 8 in.. 6 in. by 4 in.. Round Timber, of eixe to square — 12 in. by 12 in do do do do do do do do do Flatted Timber. 4 do d! do 12 in. by 10 in 12 in. by 9 in 12 in. by 12 in. by 9 in. by 9 in. by 9 in. by 6 in. by 6 in... 4 in.., 9 in... 6 in.., 4 is.. 4 in.., -8 in Hemlock or Spruce Plank p. M Carried forward.. 90 $ cts. $ cts. 30 00 500 1? oco cc 53 00 20 1,000 00 80 00 50 4,000 00 2 75 526,646 1,445,526 60 1 76 J0,000 62,600 00 37 214,138 82,931 06 45 20,000 9,000 OO 65 00 10,000 6,600 00 30 00 425 12,750 CO 26 00 100 2,880 00 i'O 4,480 00 450 4,050 00 i,aro 2,400 9,100 00 26,' 00 00 380 1,0(jO 1 1,045 00 2,000 00 500 84,0iJ0 105 00 25,200 00 84,000 1,000 20,000 140,000 246,000 225,000 81,000 25,200 00 300 00 5,600 00 39,200 00 61,250 00 56.250 00 16,800 00 360,000 44,000 16,000 46,800 00 7,480 00 2,060 00 J % i ^> e> i>>,^ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k A O A 4^ .. 'W .^^^.^ U.A fe 1.0 ^KSI I.I 2.5 3.2 2.2 Its us I. ,. wuu 1^ 10 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ^ 6" ► ■'S V & ^ /; c*l Photographic Sciences Corporation \ ,v :1>^ \ :\ fv ii WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716)872-4503 ;\ ^^^>:^? i'»,5?f37%i*^2a«'(fi^''«*"*«?'*«^**'^*''**'*^'^^ its CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHM/ICMH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques .ffl ' H. II " 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 RAILWAY. Fifteenth Contract. QuantiticH; except in the case of "Solid" and "Loose Eock," and " Earth," those ''Earth lUnks " Hub.stitutod for "Tredtlo-work," as recommended in the letters of May, 187i^. lleviied Quantities. Trestle-worlc ftbaBdoned. — Cost to complete with JUarth. Difference due to substitution uf Earth for Trestle-worli. Difference due I to ] minor changes. I Quantities! Amounts. Increase. 654 56 20 fiO 525,646 SO ,000 1,657,420 15,000 6,000 376 200 $ Ct3. $ cts. 18,636 80 1,000 00 4,000 00 1,445,526 50 ) 52,500 00 j 613,245 00 530,313 97 6,750 00 1 2,760 00 Decrease. $ cts. Increase.! Decrease. $ ctj. 1,836 80 I $ Cts.' 200 520 1,460 2,400 100 l,0u0 60,414 9J6 36,810 14,680 4,35J 3,(00 11,280 00 5,200 00 2,250 00 2,750 00 1.470 00 2,900 00 4,680 00 10,220 00 26,400 00 275 00 2,000 00 1 2,880 00 1 .\ 1,680 00 .1. 630 00 I 1,120 00 18,124 20 253 68 9,202 50 3,670 00 870 40 1,500 00 17,824 20 1,500 00 165 00 25,200 00 35,000 00 5,346 32 39,200 00 62,047 60 B;,580 00 15,929 60 46,800 00 7,480 00 2,5)0 00 9, 7 JO 00 1,400 00 8,800 00 19,800 00 1,200 00 1,740 OO 120 00 7,740 00 Ul 770 00 B. Remarks. No price in "contract. Estimated at 90 cl» p^r lineal foot, which is the contract rate on Con- tract fourteen. .... I. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 187^ Fit'TEENTii Contract.— Approximato Eslimate of Cost to complete, according Description of Work. Brought forward. P'°e Plank p. M b. „. Hardwood Plank jo Wrought Iron, including bolta, ipikes, gtraps, ic..'... per lb. Cast Iron ; ' ^^ ties .!.".".'.'..'.".' No Track-laying pg, ^jip. BaLastiug. p_ ^^^, ^ Points and Crossings gjts. Additional Masonry and Permanent Structures, say- ••■— Schedule Quentities. "Solid" Rock, <'^oo8c" Rock, and "Earth," quan- tities being revised — Cost to complete -vrith Tfettle- work. Quantities. Amounts. cts. ToUls., Approximate additional eost of "earth" substituted for "trrstle-work" 1,000 1,000 325,000 10,000 270,000 116 1S6,000 26 25 00 M 00 42,250 00 1,000 00 108,000 00 33,640 00 61,380 OO 260 00 2,267,942 C6 i. «Q^? .rro^ n*^"'."'"''*? * ' ^••,*^-' ore increases cansed by the substitution of Earth for Trestle- K^i^lt fli ^«<*"<''>ons. due to changes in other items, bring the Estimate down to the amount Bstimat*', of the probable increased cost ot completing with Barth, to Mr. Fleming, I did not make these Ottawa, 10th April, 18V9. m A. 187» oto, according uU Quantitiea. " Rock, " ^oosh" d "Earth," quan- nsrreyised— Cost ete -with TreitU- Amounts. cts. 25 00 20 00 42,250 00 1,000 00 108,000 00 33,640 00 61,380 OO 260 00 2,267,942 66 'arth for Trestle- ) to the amount i not make these 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 to Contract, or with Enrth Banks substitutoJ for Trestlowork.— -Co/ji»*i Quaniitiei. Trestle-ifork abandoned. —Cost to complete with EdTth. Difference due to i substitution of Earth for Trestle-work. Difference due 1 to minor changes. Remarks. Qnantitien Amounts. 16,678 3,680 26,937 18,885 270,000 116 186,000 26 % cts. 389 45 73 60 3,6*1 ei 1,288 60 108,000 00 33,610 00 61,380 00 260 00 70,000 00 % cts '364"45" $ cts. $ cts ( cts. B. B. 33,748 19 288 50 B. ' '■ ■ ,1 .■ ■ •••1 ■•••••••> C. ;' 2,617,417 84 2,267,942 66 050,314 72 361,856 61 3,386 80 12,400 00 '*■' ' -V ■ " 249,476 28 work and total $620,344.72. The amount of timber-work done away with, from the sarse ca^se, ciT»n' above, {249,476.28. But, in order to be sure I was on the safe side when submittinK mj Us^uotioas, hence the sum given la my Ittter to him of the 22nd May, 1878, vIb : |268,600.— J, H. Howah. JAMES H. ROWAN, District Engineer. ■', %■ 88 m 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 18t» Q. What is the estimate cost according? to the contract ?— $J,267,942.5G. Q. What iH the estimated cost supposing earth is substituted for trestle-work ? — $2,517.417.84, showing that the excess of cost if earth is put in instead of trestle-work, would be 8249,475.28. I thought it was but right I should make a short statement in connection with that, and which I have written as a note at the bottom of thi& schedule. >" t fl I !• II f lit ( Vide " Note " at end of foregoing schedule.) Q. I should like to know to what extent the change yon have made there has increased the quantities of work ? — None at all, so far as I know. Of course looso rock is an uncertain quantity, but the solid rock remains unchanged whether you , put in trestle-work or whether you put in earth-work. It is the earth-work that will be changed, if you abandon the trestle-work, and I can answer you here right off, what the change in that respect would be. Under the contract, the quantity of earth would be over 24,138 yards, and if trestle-work is abandoned all through the contract, and changed from the original plan, the quantity of earth would bo 1,657,420 yards. The dift'erence in money would bo from $8i,93L06 to $613,245. Q, So that if there had been no change made in the mode of construction, the earth would have increased over the estimated quantity of 80,000 yards to J24,138 yards ? — Yes. Q. That is adhering to the trestle-work sj'stem ? — Yes. Q. But if the solid bank mo(Jo should bo adopted, it would bo increased to 1,657.420 yards?— Yes. Q. Can you give us the same statement with respect to rock excavation. The quantity in the original schedule was 300,000 yards?— Yes. Q. If there had been no change in the mode of carrying on the work, what would have been the quantity of rock as now estimated ?— The quantity would hayo been 525,646 yards of solid rock if there had been no change. And if solid emboink- raentfl should bo adopted, the quantity will be just the same. Whether the banks are made of trestle-work or solid earth, it makes no difference in the quantity of rock. Q. How is loose rock?— The loose rock is not changed either. Nothing was known as to the quantity until we came on it. It is estimated at 30,000 yards. (J. It is estimated in the revised estimate at 4b',000 yards. Can you explain that ? — It ia because we have got an increased quantity. Q. Is the item 46,000 yards in the revised estimate correct ? — No, there will bo more. It will be largely in excess of that, and it is duo to other causes. Q. When waait first expected that there would bo a change made in the charac- ter of the construction of the work ? -I think the lirsttime it was expected was when I explained to Mr. Smith what my views were on the subject, and endeavored to lay before him the general advantage that there would bo in tho substitution of rock sides instead of building rock base-i, when ho was in Winnipeg in October, 1877. Q. At tho same time it was proposed to carry these solid embankments across the dry voids? — Ihnt was subsequent to Mr. Smith's approval of making the banks across the water voids. The embankments across the water-voids were approved of first of all, and then the proposition was made by the contractor to do away with trestle-work eveyrwhere, and that if wo would follow that plan of construction ho would furnieh the material, no matter how far ho had to haul it, free of extra cost. Ho was asked to submit that in writing, which he did. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall : — Q. That proposition was made in "Mr. Smith's presence? — Yes; it was made to him in my presence in Manitoba. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Was it generally expected that the change would bo made ? — Yes. I have no hesitation in saying I was in great hopes that th«» change would be made. U A. 18V!> 942.5G. trestle-work ? — of trestle-work, ihort statement bottom of thi& nado there haa 3f course looso I whether you larth-work that y^ou here right he quantity of II through the ild bo 1,657,420 5. nstruction, tho ids to 124,138 increased to cavation. Tho le work, what ty would haTO f solid emba^nk- ir the banks are itity of rock. Nothing was too yards. Ian you explain I, there will bo } in the charac- ected was when leavored to lay itution of rock obcr, 1877. ikmonts across jiiig tho banks re approved of do away with 3onstruction ho 3 oi extra cost. it was made to — Yes. I have 3 made. 42 Victoria Appendix (No 1.) A. 1879 Q. Can the embankments with rock side walls be rcndorcd solid if the trestle- work is adhered to ?— It would bo necessary to fill up tho centre to tho l»vel of tho rock walls with oarth and place the trestle-work on that. 1 would be very much afraid, ho\,ovor, that if wo did bo that tho earth would settle with the water, nnatho trestle-work would not have a solid foundation. This might be obviated by putting in piles and placing tho trestle-work on the piloH, Q. Has the original plan been modified to any considerable extent by fillmg tho land voids with rock ? -No, it has not. The only place that is done is where Mr. Suith gave ojders that we should make up the bank at one point with earth, because it would serve I think, if I remember right, to afford us data to estimate whether there was the quantity of earth material in that district that we required by opening up a borrow-pit. Q. So the quantity of trestle-work would not be reduced by anything that has been done in the way of filling up the land voids ?— It will be reduced by tilling up tho water voids but not by filling up tho land voids, Q. To what extent will it reduce it by filling up tho water voids?— It will makd a large reduction. Q, One-half ?— I should think it would bo fully that, if not more. Q. If the quantities had been correct as detailed in the original estimate or schedule, which mode of construction would have been least costly— adhering to the tresile-work, or adopting solid embankments?— Of course the trestle-work would be the cheaper by the amount I have given to-day, Q. Is it the fact that the quantities have been eo much increased beyond what was estimated that renders it desirable to adopt tho solid plan? — No, I think not. Q. Is it not the additional material from cuttings that affords tho material for thebolid embankments?— You are partly right in this way : It is the additional quantity of earth we have. Wo have found large deposits of earth where we never expected to find earth on the contract at all. You see when we put in the first estimate of 80,000 yards, it was thought that the whole country was rock ; but sine© tho fact was ascortained that there were largo deposits of earth, then tho whole character of tho work was changed to a certain extent, and it became a question whether it was not more desirable to put in oarth-work than trestle. work. It is my impression if it had boon known at first that such large qu.''.ntities of earth existed there, it would have made a difference in tho kind of work adopted. Q. Have tho engineers furnished bills for the trestle-work in tho dy voids?— Tho The engineers have not furnished them yet. Q. Do you furnish them, or do you wait to bo asked foi- them ? — Wo wait xmtil the contracrtors ask for them. If wo volunteer them before they are required, they are sometimes lost. Q. Can you give us some idea of the depths of the lakes that have to bo crossed { ■ —They are largo lake.-*, but wo always cross them at favorable places. Q. What is the longest crossing you have ? — I do not remember exactly, but I think 5i>0 or 600 feet — possibly 700 feet. Q. What is the greatest depth you have to contend with ? — I think, of water, about 20 feet. Q. And howls tho bottom ?— In somo cases it is hard, and in others it is soft mud. . . , , , Q. Is there much of soft mud?— In Cross Lake there is a considerable amount of mud. We have been making borings tor some time, and tho depth is 20 feet or more Q. Will you have to build bridges over any portion of them ?— I think no I received orders from the Acting Kngineer-in-Chief to build trestle-work not ; I have received orders from the Acting ttngineer-in-umei lo duuu iresiie-work over one ; to put in a solid rock base instead of sides ; and to put trestle-work over one. Q. What are the conditions of tho contract with respect to haul ? — Anything over 1,200 feet, the contractors have to be paid for over haul. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — To what extent would the change benefit the contractor? — I can answer 9& *(r- 4] Victoria Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 tf' generally. It would avail to him, that whatever you consider the price, that 37 cents per cubic yard for earth is above what would be a fair price on the difference of 2i4,l38 yards and 1,657,428. The rock, whether solid or loose, is not affected by the change in any way. Then the contractor advantages by every stick of low- priced timber that i* left out. Q. You spesk of earth being more easily obtained than was anticipated ? — Yes. Q. Do you got the earth you wanted in the cuts, or has it to be borrowed ?— The major portion of it would have to be borrowed. Q. What is the nature of the soil ? — It is a sandy soil. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. How Jong wi uld the haul be ? — In some cases very long. By the Honorable Mr. Uaythorne : — Q. Is the soil calculated to make good solid embankments, and bind well?— I think HO. Q. You are not afraid of subsequent subsidence in the lakes, if you fill in between side walls with earth?— No; I think the rock sides will thoroughly protect it against subsidence. It has taken such an immense quantity of rock to make those side walls, as compared with what the depth of water and mud showed it to bo, that 1 am satisfied the rock has gone down and obtained a solid hold on the bottom, so that there is no danger of the walls spreading whea the earth is put in. The rock walls have gone down at a slope of two to one, instead of one to one, and conse- quently have found a very firm basis for the subsequent earth filling. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. The chief cause of the increased cost is the increase of quantities over the sehedule quantities ? — Yes. Q And that the surveys wtre not sufficiently advanced to enable you to take out the exact quantities ? — No. Q. I suppose all parties on the line, engineers and contractong, have been ex- pecting that the proposed system would be the one adopted ? — Yes; we have hoped 60, because we thought that it was the best. I now produce the letter of instructions that I wrote to the division engineer on the departure of Mr. Smith : — Copy. Winnipeg, 3rd November, 1877. Dear Sir,— I am in receipt of yours of the 28th October. Mr. Smith loft for the east yesterday afternoon, lie will submit the whole question of making up the banks with earth, and doing away with trestle-work, to the Government. In the meantime ho has authorized me to have the banks across lakes made up in the manner we proposed — that is with a narrow rock bank on each side, brought up to 3 foot over high water level, placed wide enough apart to carry the sand em- bankments, and leave a berm of 2 feet outside. I shall telegraph you to this effect eo Boon as the line is woiking. The area of the section lor tunnel I sent .you, was about 3 feet in excess of that of a 12 feet circle. 1 now enclose you one which will be the same (and from which you will work), or so near as to be practically the same. You will return the quan- tities as per this section. The contractor must furnish stringers in accordance with the drawings. H. Cabki, Esq., Division Kngineer, Contract 15. Truly yours, (Signed) JAMES H. EOWAN, 9< A. 1879 he price, that 37 on the difference is not uffected by ry stick of low- icipatcd ? — Yes. borrowed ? — The nd bind well? — I )s, if you fill in oroughly protect sk to make those ved it to bo, that >n the bottom, so ut in. The rook one, and conse- lantilies over the e you to take out [•8, have been ex- ; we have hoped ar of instructions mber, 187T. Imith loft for the " making up the lent. IB lakes made up ch Bide, brought •ry the sand em- :ou to this effect in excess of that and from which return the quan- awingg. :. BOWAN, 42 Victoria, Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 Q.Did you send a copy of this to Mr. Smith ? — In my suhsoquont lottor to him I made extracts from it. Then on the same day I wrote a further letter to Mr. Carre to this effect : — WiNNiPEo, 3rd November, De.4lR Sir, — Mr, Whitehead is anxious to submit a proposition to the Govern- ment, whereby ho will be permitted to make up all the embankments on Contract 15 with earth or sand tilling in lieu trestle-work. Ho, together with his engineer (Mr. Ruttan), had a short interview with Mr. Smith on the subject yesteixlay, just as he was leaving. Mr. Smith Hoemcd to favor the proposal, but before submitting it to tho Government requires some more detailed information on the subject — made up under tho following hoaJ.s, giving tho qu:>ntitioV hite- head, making a formal proposition in connection with this subject. Before leaving Winnipeg, to come down here, I again wrote to Mr. Carro (I7th December), informing him that I had received this letter and added : " Before, how- ever, I can submit this to the Department I must be in a position to lay before it an approximate estimate of the cost of both ways of doing the work. " Hence my letter 3to you of the 3rd November. " Mr. Marcus Smith having approved of the plan for making the banks across water-stretches, with rock sides to be filled in with earth and sand, these are now 98 S^•:!^"^(»J^tyiS;■:''>SSj^ft;tJ■v..)^K A. 1879 nnd not thoao ROWAN. il not hoard of i^inith, ot'whioli [ni-cli, 1870. uitioii with me, lontract 15 with )osition iti writ- nbout the samu infonntition uii I was as followa : Bads, giving tho jsign. ol irostle-worlc. [b.sequont filling s.&c&c, which ations, or, bettor 1 cost of rock in jther with sand y and cost of the er the above is ider the present Lhe trestle-work, in mind that it tretchos." et the necessary me by you, to mportant that I 1, therefore, pre- to the fact, that nks must be so id not those that from Mr. White- Mr. Carre (I7th : " Before, how- lay before it an Hence my letter Lhe banks across d, those are now 2J Victoria. Appendix (N'o. 1.) A. 1879 estimated from the calcuhition for trestle work, and I shall bo obliged by your letting me have an approximate estimate of the other portions, at the very earliest practic- able moment. The object of such estimate being to show the respective cost of fill* ing in the openings in the banks, for woich there is now no material, in the first ])laco with trestle-work which will be subsequently filled in with earth and sand. And, the cost if now tilled in with tho.se materials at the contract price, the trostlo- work being abandoned either altogether or as far as practicable." 1 may hero call your attention to the fact that, while it will be necessary in all cases to have thesujjorstructure of the trestle-work made of the best squared timber, a considoniblo portion of the timber to be u.sed in the "bonts" may bo round ; only squ.ired at joints, mortices, and tenons, thereby materially reducing tho cost (at cost rates). Mr. (Jarre piomiscd to lot mo have tho iiitbrmation askod for in thoso letters before this date, but as I have not yet rocoivod it, I now hand in Mr. Whitehead's letter, with such information bearing on tho subject as I am in a position to givo at present; I may hoar from him within tho next few days, and then bo in a position to give you further information. Tho pmseiit grades on Contrjict '.5, in their relation to tho cuts and fills, were adopted with a view to keeping down tho first cost, by reducing tho rock cuttings. The material taken from these to bo used in tho first place, where necessary, for bringing up the banks across lakes and bays to three foot above high-water level, «nd of such a width that, at some future date, earth embankments could bo fox-mod upon them without tho too of tho latter being in tho water. In the meantime trestle-work, placed up.n these rock banks, would carry the track over those uncompleted banks, and at other points where sutficiont material could not be obtained to make them up. It was decided to make the rock banks as above described, to prevent the timber work in trestles from being acted upon alternately by air and water; and of that width, in preference to narrower (only sufficient to carry the trestles) as, had this latter plan been adopted, more earth would bo required to complete them subse- quently ; and, after completion, rock would have to be procured for rip-rap at their base, to preserve them from the action of the water. At the time when it was determined to adopt the plan above stated, all tho information which had boon obtained, lead to the belief that very little material other than rock could be procured on the section. During last summer, however, the men and tools, &c., required for making examinations, being on the ground, it was ascer- tained that a considerable quantity of sand and clay could bo obtained at some points on the lino and from borrowing pits. To place this in tho works, however, a very considerable length of haul will, in some instances, be necessary. That this discovery has a most important bearing upon tho method of con- structing the work previously detormined on, tho accompanying diagrams and cal- culations prove, as they show that — 1. Earth embankment is cheaper than trestle-work for banks of loss than 18 feet in height ; 2. If a rock base of full width, for subsequent earth bank on top, is more than half the total height of tho bank, a rock bank made up to grade would bo lesa expensive ; 3. A rock base on rock sides, less than 10 feet in height, will not reduce the cost of constructing an embankment ; 4. Eock sides (as in Figure 1) filled in with earth to full height of embankment, is in all cases at least 83 per cent, cheaper than a full width rock base with trestle- it, and nearly 50 per cent, cheaper than this same bank with earth filling work upon upon it; 5. Banks between 20 and 50 feet in height, will ultimately cost from 57 to 09 per cent, more, if crossed in the first place by trestle-work and subsequently filled in with earth, than if made up with earth now. These facts are arrived at from the following data : — 1-7J n 42 Yictoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879^ 1. Tiio ratoti at which tho cost of the clifToront cIasso fltffh unlfi' Fall rock bank, coat por lineal foot SlS^l 53 A 20 foot bank will cost por linoal foot : — 1. If earth with rip-rap sic'es 10 fiiot high $20 28 2. If sides rock (as Fig. 1) 10 feet high, core and top earth 31 26 3. If base rock (as Fig. 2) 10 feet high, top earth 47 55 4. Jf all rock (as Fig 3) 50 It/ 5. If base rock (im Fig. 2) 10 feet high, top trestle-work. . 52 71 6. If do do do top trostlo-work with subsequent earth filling 56 74 A 30 feet bank will cost per lineal fjot : — 2. If sides rock (as Fig. 1) 20 feet high, coro and top earth 81 73 2. If all r^ck (as Fig. 3) 20 feet high 95 66 3. If base rock (as Fig. 2) 20 foot high, top earth 103 80 5. do do do top^trestle-work. 108 97 6. do do do top trestle-work, subsequent earth filling 113 00 A 40 feet bank will cost per lineal foot: — 2. If sides rock (as Fig. 1) 20 feet high, core and top earth $100 25 5. If base rock (as Fig. 2) do top trestle-work. 150 57 3. do do do top earth 153 89 4. If all rock (as Fig. 3) do 154 53 6. If base rock (as Fig. 2) do top trestle-work with subsequent earth filling 162 41 A 50 feet bank will cost pc lineal foot : — 2. If Bide rock (as Fig. 1 ) 20 feet high, core and top earth $123 34 6. If base rock (as Fig. 2) do i op trestle work.. 193 67 3. do do do top earth 208 54 6. do do do top trestle with subsequent earth filling 217 09 4. If all rock (as Fig. 3) 235 05 101 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 A 1879' A 70 foe* hank will cost per lineal foot: — 2. It sides rock (as Fig. 1) 20 ft. high, core and top earth. $183 06 5. If base rock (as Fig. 2) do top trestle-work ... 28194 3. do do do top earth H.il 47 fi. do do do top trestle-work, Bubfiequent earth-filling 339 8Q 4. If all rock (as Fig. 3) 412 77 Having set before you in general terms, when in Winnipeg, the facts which are here given in detail, I received permission to make the necessary changes in the method of constructing the banks across Avater-stretches. Consequently, in one or two cafcs where sufficient material is found in cuttings, close at hand, to make an all rock bank instead of an all rock base (the cost being nearly the same). This coarse is being followed. In others, rock eidoa are being made, facilitating the completion of the work, the material for this purpose being obtained from cuttings close at hand, while, to make a lull rock base, it would have to be hauled a considerable distance, in some instances. Trestle-work built of the timber of the country could not be considered safe after it had been in the work five or six years ; and the danger of traffic on the line being interrupted at any moment through the destruction by fire of some portion of the great length required on this section, cannot bo over-estimated. The danger from this cause is considerably reduced by the plan new adopted for crossing water-stretches, and would be entirely removed, if the enclosed proposal is accepted ; *vhile, at the same time, the character of the line would bo more permanent. In my letter to you of the 26th January last, I called attention to the fact that there are points on the line where the introduction of structures of a permanent character, for which there is iio contract price, would do away with high and perish- able trestle-work. As the doing awiiy with trestle-work will, no doubt, be of pecuniary advantage to the contractors, 1 would recommend that they should be called upon to put in structures, where required, either of the character named in that letter or any other kind of culvert masonry, at rates proportionate to that given in their tender for bridge masonry, and this in addition to the offer contained in the enclosed letter. By adopting this course, the whole work will be made of a permanent character, the first cost not increased materiallj', while the ultimate cost would be materially decreased. Yours truly," JAMES n. ROWAN. Marcus Smith, Esq., Acting Engineer-in-Chief. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall : — Q. That letter was addressed to Mr. Marcus Smith while ho was Engincer-in- Chief? — Yos; that was submitted a year ago last March, before Mr. Fleming came out from England. By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson .- — Q. To that latter you got no reply ?— No ; I received no reply. I havo hero a copy of a telegram respecting changes which Mr. Smith suggested, and which havo materially improved the line. (Copy.) Ottawa, December 28th, 1873. Jab. H. Rowan, Winnipeg. "War Eagle, Rock Lake. — Make solid rock embankment to 3 foot above water ; 42 feet wide at top ; trestle SHperstructure, outside post raking 3 inches per foot. Lake Deception. — Earth embankment with rock protection in water in the approved form. (Signed) MARCUS SMITH. ^ 102 mm A 1879' $183 06 281 y4 , 331 47 . 330 8G 412 77 ;ho facts which are y changofi in the ?quontly, in one or ind, to make an all irae). This coarse ig the completion ings close at hand, 3idorablo distance, msidored safe after c on the line being me portion of the n now adopted for closed proposal is B more permanent. 9n to the fact that IS of a permanent h high and perish- bt, be of pecuniary be called upon to I that letter or any jn in their tender ho enclosed letter, rmanent character,, mid be materially n. ROWAN. ! was Englncer-in- Mr. Fleming came y. I have here a J, and which have r 28th, 187P. feet above water ; 3 inches per foot. ;er in the approved CUS SMITH. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Mr. Marcus Smith asked to bo allowed to make a few explanations. He said : — The work Mr. llowun alludes to, as done in 1877, was a portion that was submitted to me for my approval just as 1 was leaving Winnipeg, and it was about two miles in length. It was a change in the distribution of the rock taken from the cuttings from what Mr Fleming hud authorized Mr. Rowan to do. Mr. Fleming had author- ized Mr. Rowan to made solid embankments across the water-stretches. Wo found that would take a large quantity of rock, and Mr. Rowan submitted a plan to make narrow protection walls at the side so as to save borrowing rock, and which would require fur less material. I approved of that so far as that portion of the work that was submitted to me is concerned, and I approved of ceitain lowering of grades there, but I gave no instructions, and gave Mr. Rowan no authority to write to Mr. Carre that that was to be the general character of the work. I gave him instructions to make detailed profiles and plans of any changes that were ])roposed to be made. I have a groat objection to approving of things generally before having the plans and profiles before me. By the Honorable Mr. Marpherson : — Q. You mean that ho was not to apply that to any water-stretches except what you hud a])proved of? — Except to the smaller water-stretches. Q. Your instructions to Mr. Rowan were verbul and not in writing?— They were verbal ; made just as I was hurriedly leaving Winnipeg. Had I soon the letter that Mr. Rowan wrote to Mr. Cane with respect to the distribution of rock, I would not have objected to it, because I think it was so far correct. By the Honorable Mr. Cornwall : — tj. How is it you did not recollect this before Mr. Rowan came here? — I was not asked tlie question. I was specially instructed by the Government not to volun- teer any information. If you had asked me to give a ni -rative, I should have done BO. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — Q. I should like to ask whether it is the custom in the Department to give verbal directions with reference to changes as important as this?— Not for general changes, but for a small change such as this is. I should have given written instruc- tionsf but I had not half an hour before the boat left. I mentioned to the Minister, when I returned to Ottawa, that I had authorized some changes on the lino which were within the province of the engineer. I said they wore of such a character as would reduce the cost of the work, and he rather approved of it. By the Honorablo Mr. Haythorne : — Q. Was a change over two miles of the road a small matter ?— It was a small matter as compared with the general change over the section. Q. Do you not think that, having no ti'me to do bo before leaving Winnipeg, it would have been better to have given a written authority subsequently? The only notice we have of this change is entirely through Mr. Rowan's letter to Mr. Cane ?— I generally give written instructions if I am writing from Ottawa, but on the lino I give verbal instructions as I go along to the engineer in charge. Q. Is there any written record of the instructions to be found anywhere? — No. TheLC are practically details that do not require to come before the Department at all. > By the Honorable Mr. Macphcrson : — ti- In answer to the question of Mr. Christie: " Is it usual to call for new tenders when changes are made in the works under contract ?" you replied : •' I never knew changes of such magnitude being made without tenders being called for. This is a total change in the character of the work, you must understand ?" — I do r.ot know that \ over did. I do not remember such radical changes ever having been made in works I have had to do with. Q. But according to Mr. Rowan's evidence no very radical changes hiive beon made. The quantities have been increased because the first estimate was i-enouncod ? — I think a change involving $'i60,0J0 is a considerable change. 103 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1,) A. 1879 Q. Did not tho iaoroaso of quaiititios of maloi-iul wliich wore discovoi-ol pro- vide tho moans of making those chun^o,^, and undor tho clrctimstaiico wore tlioy not advisiUlo?— As an cnf^ineoiing question tliey wore advinablo, as 1 certainly profor ombaniiments to trestle-work. Q. But iiad not the materials to bo removed in any case? — No; wo lial to bor- row niateiial to niako up tho embankments in many cases. Q Thoro is an increase of .^25,000 yards of rock that had to be disposed of? — If Ihoro is biifficient lock in tho cuttings to make these protection walls, there would bo no advantage oitlicr way ; but if they liavo to borrow rock to make these protec- tion walls that would, of course, increase tho quantity. I may say that, in tho future, if it is not intended to renew the tmstlo-work after it doouys, but to till it up with earth, thou tho.voroil pro- lio wiivo thoy not certainly profor ); wo lial in bor- 10 disposed of ? — alU, tlioro would iiko thoso protoc- say lliat, in tlio i, but to till it up not roquii'odat -y for borrowing until thoy wore about that lottor Lho timo it wan 10 ill my basket it it; but, oven if )t seem to bo suf- t havo answered very ditiicult to >t commit myself aolieve that you -I know nothing uco tho Commit- ittorwardlj as I hose changes ?- icars to be some Mr, Rowan's evi- srations had not the autumn of bad to be done ; made with earth i the contraotor ve\B to do a very it quantity done, the early part of ith's authorised lave boon made [ authorized no you authorized '. Howan ? — I do uch rs that. \y more changes ■ approval, ou promised to 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Q. Tho proposed chani^o? -Mr. "Whitohoad and Mr. Rowan propo^od no change to mo except tho two miles thai 1 have wpoUoa of. (J Then it remains with tho Committoo to douido whotlior thoy will boliovo yoii or bclicvo Mr. Rowan ?— I submit there was no general change authorized at all. By the Honorable Mr. IJaythorne :— Q. I wish to ask you whether tho work you saw m progress was adopted for finishing that oarth-'work or trestle?— It was aiopted for finishing with earthwork. It would not have boon required for trestle-work at all. But trostto- work was not intontlod to bo tho final form of tho railway. It was only intondod to be used first, and then when the trostle-work decayed to fill it up with eaith. These rock embankments I approved of because they were put in the best form for tho subsequent tilling in with earth. Mr. llENaY Carbe recalled, was examined as follows : By the Honorable Mr. HaytJiorne :— Q. You heard Mr. Smith's evidence just now ?— Yes. (I. Can you give the Committee any explanations with respect to the nature and extent of these fillings?— You mean the land fills? Q. Yos ?— Weil, of course, we were working at tho timo Mr. Smith came up, at nothintr but the actual lino cutting, except in one or two little points where we got into sand, and a nose of rock which the contractor would havo had great diffi- culty to cut; but I allowed him to go a little to one side and make a little borrow, quite enough to allow his track to pass. lixcept that and the taking out of eido ditches to make banks where the cut did not give sufficient material, there was no borrow or earth excavation except from the lino cuttings. You see in cases where there was a shallow dump to be made, and tho ditch long, we widened tho ditch to get enough material out of it to make the dump. This is a portion of the work under the contract, it is not outside the terras of the contract at all. There is no change at all. Mr. Smith did not mention the stations at which the changes occurred. I should like to ask him where they occurod, as I think he must be mistaken. Ho authorized one embankment to be made up from a borrow pit, as Mr. ilowan states. Q. Did you consider at the time of his visit that you were working strictly in accordance with the specification ?— Yes ; in everything except in those protectioa waHs Q. And those were authorized on a sojMivalo occasion ?— -They were authorized by Mr. Rowan's letter to me. Q. And all over tho section which you were overseeing the work was proceeding strictly in accordance with the specification ?— Certainly ; as I understand it. By the Honorable Mr. McLeUm : — Q. Was there any preparation made for continuing with trestle-work ?— No. Q. Can you give any reason for the preparations, not having been made ?— Because the matter was in abeyance ; we were waiting for instructions to havo itfinally settled as to whether Mr. Whitehead's propo.-,ition would bo accepted or not, and I do not know to this moment which way the contract is to be finished. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — Q. We spoke just now of the period of Mr. Smith's visit of inspection ; I wish to ask you now whether, up to the present time, the work has been carried on in accord- ance with the specification beyond what has boon spoken of in connection with the •water-stretches ?—E.xcept in the oiio case of the borrow-pit behind my house, it i«; we wanted to open that to sae how it would turn out. Mr. Smith said : " Make that bank, and wo will see how the boirow-pit turns out." We did so, and it is a vet-/ important discovery. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1S19 By the Honorable Mr. Macpherson : — Q. Ilttvo you not made any of tho land-fills yot?— No further than the cuttings will make them; we have a groat number of them, but they are a'l made from cut- tings, except in this case where, as I said, it was made from side ditches. Q. Was that contemplated in the specification ? — Yes. Q. AH that has been done would have been executed if it had not been expected that the trestle-work would be dispensed with ? — Yes. (J. You have done no earth work that would not have been done had you boon preoooding with the trestle-work as originally specified ?— No ; except in that case, Q. What is tho extent of that ?— I think it is about 44,000 or 45,000 j'ards. il. Was it you that made 'he returns upon which the original schedule was based ? — Yes; 1 made all the calculations. By the Honorable Mr. Haythorne : — (i. What season of tho j-car did you go from l{at Portairo. thoro ? — 1 began the survey in July, ■if By the Honorabit Mr. Macpherson : — Q. There was no snow on the ground then ?— No ; but t!io ground was covered with moss and sticks. Q. How are you so far out in tho quantities ? — Bocaurie it is impossible to toll what is under your foot in passing through tho woods in that country. There may be tor "eet or two feet of sand under your feet; but you cannot tell without testing. Then there were no cross-sections taken. f stiiiiciont data cud of Juno. b respecting ihia that the chani;o ■ed. son the subject? Fleming, but I [OOM, y 6th, 1879. the work with i of what it will 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 AppaoxiMATE EsTiMATB of Cost to comploto with full earth banks. Description of Wurka. Clearinfr -'•• P«i' acre (.11(186 cuttin); do Gruiib iig (including side ditches) . do Solid riiul( excavhtiun p. cub. yd. Louse ruck excHVatiun, say... do Karth excavation (iQclurtiiiR borrowing) « do ExcHTation in ulf-take ditcbes beyoad Kailway limits. do Earih excavation under water do Under drains p. 100 1. ft. Tunnelling for Railway (sectional area equal to 15 cubic yards to the lineal foot) per lin. ft. Twelve feet tunnels for streams (4 cubic yards per lineal foot) do Eight feet tunnels for streams (2 cubic yards per lineal foot) do Six feet tunnels for streams (1 cubic yard per lineal foot) do Bridge masonry p. cub. yd. Crib-work in abutments and piers of bridgeb (in- cluding timber and stone filling)... do Rip-rap. do tiquare Timber— 15 in. by 9 in per lin. ft. do 12 in. by 12 in.. do !0. 12 in. by Sin do i^ 9 in. by Sin.. do Q 9 in. by 6 in do ft 9 in. by 4 in do Piles, driren do 8 in. flatted Timber do Pine plank p. H.h.m. Wrought Iron (including bolts, spikes, straps, &c.)... per lb. Cast Iron - do Ties No. Track-laying per mile. Ballasting p cub. yd Points and crossings ~ sots. Extra haul, say ..~.. Wages (wiih 15 per cent, added), say Quantities. Rates. Worki on Contract 14 eh.-%rg*alU to Contract 15. Materials delivered : — Ties No. 192,000 Track-laying perraile. i 80 Ballasting p. cub. yd.! 160,000 Points and crossings sets. * 20 170 7 35 516,226 9\7a6 1,720,714 9,100 1,jOO 3,226 615 400 650 800 2,000 1,700 2,500 2,304 61,262 2,932 23,156 39,955 3,644 1,300 8,564 28,812 45,961 11,516 91,200 38 57,000 S TotaU.. $ cts. 30 00 60 00 80 00 2 75 1 75 37 45 1 11 65 00 30 00 14 00 9 00 7 00 11 00 2 75 2 00 30 30 28 25 25 20 60 12 25 00 13 10 40 290 00 33 10 00 Amount. $ cts. 40 290 00 33 10 00 0,000 00 350 00 2,800 00 1,419,621 60 167.573 00 636,664 18 4,095 CO l,li0 00 1,774 00 16,450 00 6,600 OO 5,850 00 5,600 00 22,000 00 4,675 00 6,000 00 691 20 18,378 60 820 96 6,788 75 9,988 75 728 80 650 00 1,027 68 720 30 6,974 93 1,161 60 36,480 00 1 1,020 00 18,810 00 80 00 18,500 00 2,600 00 2,437,474 65 76,800 00 23,200 00 52,800 00 200 00 2,634,674 65 Amount of work on Contract 14 chargtHble to Contract 15, |163,000.03. JAMES H ROWAN, District Engineer. m 42 Victoria. Appendix (^fo. 1 ) A. 1879 i.« ^Cj, I ' 1 1 t1 ^ 1 should like to mnko an explanation with regard to this matter. You will find that this estimate is somewhat in excess of the estimate aubmitted last year. The apparent increase between the amount given yesterday of $2,.525,000 as the probable oost to complete with earth instead of trestI«-work, and the statement which I now hand in, which shows the cost for the same thing, is $2,634,074 (an increase of about $119,000), is largely due to ihe increase in the quantity estimated of loose rock to complete, which in this estimate is sot down at 05,75G yards; moneyed out at the con- tract rales, this would cost $167,593. This large increase which wo are oMiged to estimate is in consequence of the orders that Mr. Marcus Smith gave the Division Kngincer when going over the work with him in reference to the manner in which we were to estimate the material taken out of the rock cuttings outside the slopes, as laid down by the spociticution. 1 was not over the work witli Mr. Smith myself, for reasons which I have already oxplaineJ, but the Assistant Engineer, Mr. Carre, came through with him, and the Contractor's Engineer and the Contractor, They repre- sented to Mr. Smith the hardship the Contractor was laboring under, because wo would not return the rock that was taken out outside of the prescribed form of the cuttings. They said they were obliged to take \i out owing to the nature of the rock and explosives used, and they could not stick closely to the specification. They had to remove the rock, and they asked to have it allowed in the estimate. The Assistant Engineer told mo afterwards in Winnipeg that Mr. Smith had given verbal orders that the contractor was entitled to an estimate ibr this rock, as he could not stick closely to the exact form of the slope; that as the Contractor had to take the rock out ho should bo allowed for it. When the engineer called my attention to this, I spoke to Mr. Smith on the subject, in Winnipeg, and J said : " If you decide it in this wa3', it is going to be a eerious thing for tlie work; our estimates will bo all astray, because we supposed that wo were tied down by the specification, and our fii/hl with the contractor has been,'that ho is not entitled to any rock taken from out8i(i> the prism, except what we deemed to bo injurious or in such » position that it was likely to fall in on the trains when they were passing, and bad to be taken out." Mr. Smith said tho contractor could not do tlio work in that way ; that it was not fair to him ; that it was impossible that he could take out the rock according to specification. We had a consultation on the subject, and after discussing tho matter I turned up the specification, and showed Mr. Smith how it was written and printed, and how very stringent and plain the directions were to my view. He then modified it by saying " put it in as loose rock." I said, '-If we have to give tho contractor an extra amount, let us not make it more than loose rock price, and ho will be well paid for what he does." I am quite free to admit that it is almost impossible for the contractor, except at very great loss indeed, to take out the rock in this form, but if we go beyond our orders, and allow that work oven as loose rock, it is going to increase the rock quantities very much." It is duo to that substitution that wo "are obliged to estimate for a ve-y large increase in tho quantity of loose rock. Wo are obliged to increase the proportion of loose rock very largely. Of course it is a question still to what extent this increase will be approved, because it is not all taken out, and as the contractor goes on tho quantity will increase. It is my impression that it will increase the amount by, say $125,000, or thereabouts, over what we had previously supposed would bo the quantity required to complete the contract. By the Honorable Mr. McLelan : — Q. What becomes of that rock ?— It is put in the embankments. Q. Then it has not gone to waste?— No, certainly not. If it had been going to waste Mr. Smith would not have allowed the contractor a yard for it. That was one of Mr. Smith's arguments : " You are putting it into the bank and you must pay the contractor for it." I think ho used the old familiar adage, "You cannot have your loaf, and eat your loaf at the same time." i, By the Honorable Mr. Penny : — Q. But this work was one of the items on which the price was very high ' •Certainly. j ty • 110 A. 1879 . You will find last joar. The as tho probablu int which I now ncroaso ^>f about of loone rock to cl out atthecon- ai'o olijigod to 1^0 tho Division lannor in which lo tho slopes, HH nriith myself, for Mi*. Curro, camo •• Thoy ropro- or, because wo bed form of tho turo of the rock ion. Thoy had estimate. Tho ad stiven verbal IS ho could not lod to take tho tlcntion to this, ou decide it in tea will bo all (iation, and our •ock taken from U. position that ad to bo taken ay; that it was jk according to )ing tho matter en and printed, c then modified tho contractor ho will be well possible for tho his form, but if k, it is going to )n that we are rock. Wo are courso it is a is not all taken my impression \r what wo had contract. L been going to That was one lu must pay the not have your very high ? — 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 (J, So that he might bo supposod to do a certain amount of extra hard work, and yet be tolerably well paid for it?— Yes, but we cannot got contractors to do any <)Xtra work without paying for it. Q. His price bcii'g high for that kind of work, ho might n6t bo supposod to loBO altogether on tho rock taken out, beyond tho prism ?— No, but it has been roturiiod up to the present as loose rock. liy the Ilonordble Mr. McLelun : — Q. Supposing he did not put it into tho ombaukincnts. Suppo.iing liu cut it down an you have drawn it thoorelieally, would you not ro(iuiro more material to make up your embankments evontuuliy?— Certainly. (i. And that material would have lo bo borrowed ?— Yes, but wo would not borrow rock lor it. Wo would put in earth to make up tho deficiency. Of course bo has taken this rock out, ond it has gone into the banks. To that extent it is use- ful ; but if wo had to do it of our own choice, of courso wo would not put in rock at that high price; we would ask him to put in earth at the contract price, 37 centH, instead of rock at 81.15. Q. In this case do you mea-long. Wo would not return the lock, and the fact is, the contractor was very far behind with his estimates. A month after Mr. Smith made the order, we wore obliged to put it in a* loose rock, and it swelled the estimate, not only by that month's work, but by what was held back besides. Mr. Fleming's view of tho subject, as I understand it, is, that if the cutting has to bo taken out beyond the slope, as required by the specification, and tho rock is of a shaley character that will not stand, and it has to be taken out beyond tho specified form, all he could possibly expect wsis to be paid for it at earth prices, because if we had to borrow to make up the embankment, it is earth we would have to borrow, and he would only be allowed for the material ho takes out to please himself, the price of tho kind of material that we would put into the bank. That accounts for the increase of the quantity over our estimate of last year. Of courso in all other items there may be modifications, but the general result would have been pretty much what I made it to be lust year, but for the change due to this extra ■quantity as loose rock. - 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1 ) A 1879 By the Ilun. Mr. Macpherson :— (I. I tliink tho Cornmittco undorHtood yon yestordaj' to my tlmt thoro had boon no dry tills whuro tiosllowoik had boon oi-iginally Hjtccifiod ? Do you adhoro to that, «r iH that your inoaninj^? — No; it is what l" said and it is what I moan in my view of liio ca>e, which I will explain to tho Committee. It conveys an idea tha', I did not wish to convoy and I will repeat it in a difforont form. There are banks made whore trestle-work would havo gone, and if those are tho banks to which Mr, Smith refers, then his statemont may be accounted for in that way, for thia rcaso'i: I thou^'ht when 1 was giving my answer to tho question, the Committee understood when 1 said thee was nothing done, but what I had been authorized to do by Mr. Smith, with rofereiico to the water-tretches, that wo had put rock sides instead of soiidrock base in tho water-stietches, and that it took less rock to cross tho water stretches in that way. Consequently as there was rock enouirh in tho cutting on tho wiiolohcction to make up the water-stretches— only it woukf havo to bo carried u h>ng distance -when you put it into tho water stretches only for side walls, it left a mass of rock on our hands from tho cuttings which was available to make up tho land voids. Therefore, when I was giving evidence, I said we had not done anything beyond what was authorized, because the rock that was saved out of tho cuttings win* in my view a part of the other. Therefore, I may havo conveyed to tho Corainittoo, tho impression that there was really noplace on the land-stretches whore embank- ments are now, that would not have been made if tho work had been done under tho original contract. The Committee will now see there must be bank whore it was originally intended to be trestle-work as we did not waste the stuff taken out of tho cuttings. When Mr, Smith came along he made certain suggestions and changes that I did not feel warranted in making, without the approval of ray superior offlcor, and they have very materially improved tho work as well as reducing the cost yory decidedly. Whether the present cost is reduced there is no doubt that tbo improvements Mr. Smith has ordered on his own views, and on my suggestions, will havo the effect of materially reducing tho ultimate cost of tho work; Q Can you give us an approximate idea of the proportion of trestle-work that ivas specified for tho land voids which has been dispensed with, by making solid em- bankments of earth and rock?— 1 cannot tell you right off; but the statement I am bringing down will give you the money difference. Q. The Committee understood you to say yesterday that raoio than half the trestle-work had been dispensed with, by adopting the solid embankments across tho water-strotches ? — Yes, more than half. Q. What further proportion of tho other half has boon rendered unnocesjiary by filling of these land voids with solid embankments? — I really cannot say, but probably it is one-fourth or one-third, because it is the low-priced trestle-work that is thrown out by our filling up. Earth tilling up to 18 feet is cheaper than trestle-work at Mi-. Whitehead's price. Q. What I would like to get approximately is this: Suppose the Government determined to finish the section by using trestle-work, what proportion of the original trestle-work would be required ?— That is what the statement I am now preparing will show you. Q. More than one-half has been di.-ipensed with on the water-stretches ?— Con- siderably more than one-half. Q. Do you consider altogether if that order were given now that more than one- half of tho original trestle-work would bo constructed?—! think I could put it in this vay if it would satisfy the Committee, although it is merely guess work. I do not think if we were to order tho trestle to go on now, that there would bo much more than one-fourth or one-third of the original trestle-work to be done. It is a hap- hazard guess however. By the Honorable Mr. Penny: — » ^ Q. Bat the abolition of tho trestle-work in favor of the bank in the water- strel bee has been economy ? — Yes. 112 A 1879 thoro had been 1 mlhoro to that, iin in my view Jon thii' I did ro bnnkt) mude ich Mr. Smith thia rcaso'i: I tee understood to do by Mr. ides inttni('ted ? — I think it wonld bo soniotliing liko lluit. Q. Tho rost of tho work liaving hoing tilled in with .solid biuik.H ? — Yos. Hi/ the Ifonorahic Mr. Penny :-■ (I. \'am tho roduclion in thai portion ot tho tro.-illo-vvork which i.s iijjon tho land is in con.si'qncni'c of tho reduction of tho trestlo-w^rk upon tho water? — 'Plio reduc- tion of tho Irostlo on tho lantl i.sduo to the economy produced in ^iubstituting oiubank- moiits for tro.-;tlo-w.)rk on tho wator-.strotchos. By the Honorithle Mr. Marphcrson ; — t^. Is it not partially duo to ineroaso of rock-work beyond what wa.s originally estimated? — It may be, l)OcaiiHo if there is moio rock-work, and two cubic yards of rock make throe cubic yards of bank, tho more rock you have, tho in)ro trostlo- work it will do away with out of proportion to tho rook cutting thoro is. Q. What do you now estimate the iinantity of solid rock-work at? — It is less than we obtimatod it in my statomont of last year. Tho original estimate of solid rock was 15(10,000 yards; last year wo m.'ido it in rounil numbers .525,00i) yards; and now wo estimate il will only be 5U),000 yards. That is an increase of L'lil,0JO yards over the original estiniulo. Q. I)id not that incrca.sod (juantity of rock go to form ombankmont-i ? — Certainly. Q. And to that extent it diminishct. the irosllo-work? — Certainly; I think ,so. By the Honorable Mr. Haythome : — (l. And tho increase in tho (juanlily of rock arose partially from lowering tho grade? — It is duo partially to lowering tho grade and partially to incom- plete informulion when wo made tho first esliniato and tho plans. What is lofl after accounting for tho discrepancy between tho two amounts, is duo to a modification of tho grado.s. I think I was asked yest.ord' ---"Did you furnish tho contractors with bills of timber for tho ti'ostle-wt.rk ? " ." I f said " No." I was then asked : " Did thoy ever ask you for thorn ? " and 1 sai 1 " No." 1 wish to qualif}' that in this wiiy: thoy never h.ave asked me for bills of timber, but I find out upon inquiry that tho}' have asked my Assistant Kngineor, Mr. Carii", for hills of timber fov tiio trestle-work, and, J think, at an early stage of tho proceedings. We wore not willing io give them because we could not t-jii wliut tr6stlo-Wi>rk would bo refjuired until tho rock lianks woi'o done; i.ind we might be committed to giving them bills foi- timber for trestle-work that wo wonld never require. We have another and Rtrongor ground which is: I do not think we are bound to give them bills at all. We furni-h them with the drawings and plans, but wo arc not obliged to furnish them with bills, as they must arrive at the quantities themselves ; and if we do it for them it is only an act of courtesy. 1 wish to correct what I said that I had never been ankod for bills; they asked my assistant, .Mr. Carre, in writing, but ho did not give them an}' for tho reasons 1 have stated. Since I was before tho Committee yesterday I was looking amongst my papers for information for tho Committee of the other House and I came acros.s another letter referring to the substitution of earth and rock for trestle-work over the water-stretches, which I now bog to lay before the Committee. •I '" ■ (Copy.) Winnipeg, 18th Septembor, 1878. Sir, — You are aware that the Eriginoer-in-Chief recommended that tho water- stretchoB on Contract 15 should be filTcoqiH!rit dato, when tho cnms-HOctioiiH woro complotod and turther exaniihiitioii iindor moro fiivorahlo eircum«iiiMc-os Imd doinonsliutoil thut a considor- ablo (iiiiuitit> ol" OHi-lh could ho ohtaiiiod, it huoaiiio ovidoiit that to complelo tho bank» in tli(! iiiiiimoi' i.io|..)K!tli Marcli lawt, recommending ita adoption. I also, on tho 2 5th January last, called your attention to a,-aviiig whichcould bo olVccted, by the i>ubhliUilion of pcr-nanont dtructuros at certain points. . . Not huvirg received any acknowledgment of these conn mcations. I made a further ie,.oit,L';iiid May, 1878, on the suhjoct, to tho Kngii, or-in-Chief, after his arrival Irom Kn-li d from cof.Midor- 1." to yoii, wlioroby tlio rock taken jawed to approve, »eer, iiislructing a propowilioii in U there wan not bout I'liar^e for g away with all ■")th March hint, d your attention jnt dtructures at tions, r made a i-Chiof, after hJH qrtant that some that 1 Bhould bo itraet. I deHiro, lo that I, as w(dl , fan furnish you aire. I. KG WAN. • yon completed work had been T out bin contract I the northern or m tho departure get, and tho other I to connect with bjective point to o; we connected ) Selkirk. 42 Victoria. App<>ndix (No. 1.) A. 1679 ADDHNDA No. i. , Ottawa, 2nd May, 1879. Sinii' my examination before thiw Iioiiorablo Cominilloe, I have read the ovidoncu of Mr. {''leming, Chief Knijineer of the Oanaiiian Pacific, itailway, and of Mr. Matrus Sniilh, Mttiiig Cliiof Hiigineor in iMr. FkMnin/^'s abHonce. The contrads under consideration were let as sehednle contraels, ihtif is to say, at pri(c-< per cubic yard, or according; to known standards of moasureinem, I ho quan- tities ol" cicli kind of work haviii;^ to be determined by actual incHsurement. The prices tiit $ 1 ,.'il)4,0(>0. On tiie 11th Miirch, ISTO, Mr. M.-ni ii> Sii i'!i torwarded 1(U- j)ayment Certilicalo X(i. 2T'>, above his signature, 'liitirig iluit on Si' tjon l.'i, (^amidian Pacific Riiilvvay, the contractor had executed work and delivered materials "under his contract without cxtias" to the value of »l,;i7!>,!l7-. The (|uantities set forth in the bill i>f works by wliich the selection of thetondefH was d..'termined were stated to be a|)proxirna1e. Il is desirable that such (juiintities should be as accurate as possible. Tho most imjiKriaut coiisiderafion is that the (iovernineiit should know exacitly the cost of any ju'oposed V i'k. If the quantities are correct, or nearly so, there is likowiso more certainty thnt tho lowest tender will bo known. But. apart from those two considoralions, there are equal objoilions to an exairgerated as to an insulHcient estimate of a proposeil work. If a close adhoronco to the qii;nititie> used in tho comparison of tenders were made the criterion whether or no tiic works had been successfully cai'ried out, the engineer making un insuHl- cient estimate will naturally endeavor to keep the expenditure witbiti the limit. On the other hand, the engineer who inakes an over-liberal esiimate, will feel no restraint, and will bo inclined to perlbnn work in excess of positive loiiuirement. Moreovci', there is the temptation to execute work of a higher character than i.s ♦•ailed for. The great cost of tho railway through the rock belt of 80 miles, of which ■Section 15 is a jmrtion, has often fortned tlie subject of considerrition by tho Dopaitment. During the past year it has bee;-, verbally stated by the engiuctirs of the Depart- ment that on Sections 14 and 1 j tho (piantfties given in the bills oi works would ho . <;onsiilerably exceeded b^^ the quantities of tho work when executed. This excess, however, will in no way be owing to extra work. With the exception of a tunnel on .Section l-T), the Department has given no orders fui- oxtia works on either of the four Sections, 1:, 14, 15 and 25. In May, 187"^, Mr. Fleming forwarded a communication of Mr. Kowun, the District Kngineer, stating that if an additional expenditure of $260,000 wore authorized, solid earth embankments could bo substituted i'')V ti-estle-work on Soctioa 15. This ex]tendituro w.is recommended by tho Enginoer-inChief, and it was sub- mitted by the Minister to Council, but as it was not approved of, no orders were issued by the Department to make the eliange. It is staled in the evidence Ijoforo the Committee, that the substitution of earth embankments for tret-tlework was ordered by Mr. Fleming, the Engineerin-Chiof. A letter was written to Mr. Fleming on the subject. In answer, Mr. Fleming reports that he has not ordered the substitution of earth embankments foi' trestle-work or any extia work whatever on Section 15. 1 pioilnco Mr. Fleming's letter. T. TRUDEAU, Deputy Minister of Public Woi'ks. 1— 8J 115 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 (Copy, -N'o. ll,4;i(i~hiibj. IXJi.) Ottawa, LiOth April, 1810. Sii!, — The Dcpartiiieiit lia.s noticed, in tlio evidence locenlly jiiven before a Conunitlee ol" the Senate on Canadian Pacifie Railway matters, by Mi'- Alarcr..s Smith, a member of your Blatf, that importJint changes are naid to have been miido, on yoi'v autho:ity, in the nature -A the workts on Section 15, Canada Pacific Jlailway, whit! will increa^\\ To the Honorable The Minisle;- of Public Works Canadian Pacific Railway, Office of tub KNoiNKEiMN-CnrEP, Ottawa, 2'Jth A])ril, ISTit. Siii, — I have I'eceived from the Secretary a letter informing me that in the evidence lecently given betorc a Committee ol the Senate, a member o*' my statf, Mr. ilarcus Smith, had said that important changes in the nature of the works on Section 15, which will very largely increase the cost of the section, have been made on my authority. 1 am called upon to rejiort the nature of such changes, if any, which have been made, and the causes which necessitated them. i beg to state that repeated attempts liad been made to place this section under contract between February, 1875, and l)ecemler, 1876; and it was not until January, 1877, that a contract was entered into with Sutton, Thompson & Whitehead fordoing the work. The tirst certificate was issued on Maich 17th, 1877, for 88,H1(). The work went on until Maj', 1878, when the certificates amounted to $-l8G,(!;jl. On the I'lxvX of that month I made the following I'eport to the Do})ariment : — Canadian Pacific Railway, Office op the Encjnekk tN-CiiiKK, Ottawa, 22nd May, 1878. Sir, — Mr. Whitehead, on the 6th November last, proposed by letter, addressed to Mr. Rowan, which letter is herewith enclosed, to complete the roadway on Section 15 with permanent rock and earth embankments throughout, in lieu of tiie wooden trestle-work, which was originally proposed to be built in many places, lie proposes to find all the material required for making the solid embankments at the contract }n'ice for earthwork (37 cents), and make no charge for extra haul for any that may lave to be brouglit fiom long distances. The District Engineer reports, this date, that the contract cost of trestle woik, which would be dispensed with by the course proposed, would be about 836((,()()0 ; that an additional present expenditure of $260,000 on earthwork under Mr. Whitelicad's offer, including masonry-culverts, would make all the embankments permanently 116 'Jib a^iWif-, «■ A. 1879 1 April, 1810. lly fiiven bcf'oie a Mr. Alaicr.s Smith, een Tniiiio, on yoi'v if Jliillway, whit! , if any have been ot-o aulhoi'ity they «liAUN, Secretary SIMN-ClirEP, Dth Ai)i'il, 187!.t. g mo that in the inher o*' my statl", of the vvorkw on II, have been niaile , whicli have been this section under not until January, hitehead fordoing for 88,H1(J. The S-18C,(!:J1. Do})arimont : — -CniKK, nd May, 187H. letter, addroHHcd to nadway on Section lieu of the wooden i(;es. lie projiosctt nts at the contract 1 for any that may >8t of trcstiework, bout 8360,000 ; that r Mr. Whitelicad'a icnts permanently 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. I.) A. 1879 sdliJ. As trestle-work U always more or loss dangerous, especially luvble to be con- sumed by tire during the dry season, in a couniry such as the one the line goes th ough, and would have to be constantly renewed until ultimately filled in solid, I *m of opinion that it would bo sound economy to accept Mr. Whitehead's ofter, and, hterefore, recommend it. I am, &c., (Signed) SANDFOED FLEMIIslJ. EiKjineer-in-Chkf. F, Braun, Esq., Secretary, Department Public Works. Ottawa, 22nd May, 1878. Dear Sib,— Having received from the fDivision Bnginoor of Contract 15 the estimate referred to in ray letter of tho 5th of March last, reporting on the subject of Mr Whitehead's proposal : " To ma):-' the embankments on Contract 15 with earth instead of ti ostle-work," contained irx iiis letter of tho 5th November, 1877, which was enclosed in the above-named letter of mine, I now submit further information on the subject as follows : — Tho cost of «ompleting the banks with earth instead of trestle-work will be $550,500 00 Deduct trestle-work done away with in consequence, 362,000 00 Balance 188,500 00 Add for masonry and permanent structures, say 70,000 00 258,500 00 If trestle-work of the value given above ($362,000) is put in now, its cost at 5 per cent, per annum, '•ompound interest, at end of six years, say $485,000 00 " By which time it would have to be either partially or wholly renewed, or replaced by earth filling. If the latter, and if this could be put in at 28 cents per cubic yard, instead of at present contract rate of 37 cents per cubic yard, there must then be a further expenditure of 401,500 00 To which must be added, as above, masonry perma- nent structures 70,000 00 Cost at end of six years... 956, 500 00 The immediate increased cost of change ($620,344) would, if treated in the same Earth, 1,433,281 cubic yards, at 37 cents $a30,313 97 Timber in culverts, &c ^^'^^ no Permanent structures 70,000 00 620,344 72 Trestle-work done away 361,866 61 ..- 268,488 11 117 m 4*!i;' m 41 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A.. 18*79 t i -?a N/k ic^ Suppose trosllo-work put in now at u cost of «.i()l,85f) (>1 And that it would last 10 years before being replaced by earth, 1,433,281 ciibic yanls, at 28 o^nts 401,318 68 To which add timber in culverts 20,030 75 do permanent structures 70,000 00 853,206 04 Add 10 years' simple interest at 5 per cent, on $361,856.61, trestle-work 180,928 30 1,034,134 34 If, for pur])08es of compariaon, 10 years' simple inter- est, at 5 per cent, per annum, be also added to present increased cost, on account of change $620,344 72 Interest 310,172 08 930,516 80 Shewing a balance, even this way, of $103,617.54. To this saving in money must also be added the imiwrtant consideration that portions, or the whole of the trestle-work, may be destroyed by tires, which are of frequent occurrence in the woods through which the whole of this section of the railway passes. Should such an event occur, the traffic of the line will be seriously interrupted. Indead, it is not at all improbable some portions of the trestle-work will be destroyed bj'^ fire befoj e the line is opened. These dangers will be entirely removed by the adoption of the course now recom- naonded. Sandforu Fleming, Esq., Engineer-in-Chief. Yours truly, (Signed) JAMES H. ROWAN. ! i Si Winnipeg, November 6th, 1877. Sir, — I beg leave to make the following remarks and proposition in reference to the work on Contract 15, with a request that you will submit the same to the Government. The quantity of rock required to be placed in the base of embankments through lakes, in oi-der to make them wide enough to cariy earth embankment RubHequontly, has to be cariied such a distance over intervening spaces as to greatly relard the progress ot the work. The disproportion between the quantity of material in the cuttings and that required to complete the embankments, will necessitate so very large an amount ot trestle-work to bridge over the intervening space that 1 cannot procure a sufficient quantity of suitable timber in the country with which to construct it. I have af^-cor- tained by recent investigation and the sinking of t.n in reference the Hamo to the kments through It RubneqiiGntly, satly re lard the* ittingB and that ^e an amount ot cure u 8ufficiont it. I have a^jcer- icient, or noarly )it8 to complete lauled for a very ,te my progress- which 1 believe: un: 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 If the Government will consent to do away with the treHtlo work uUogolher *nd iermit me to complete the banks with clay and sand, I will agree o tind the i^ceiarvmateSl at niy prescr^t price per cubic yard for earth work and make no charge lor^xtm haul for any of the material required to do thi., which has to be pro- ""''ATlwS'maklC'tho embankments through water with two rock banks carried up trth,rioet above high water mark, and having a berm of 2 feetouts.de S^foot Sf the ea'" h slope, on the plan suggested by you, as m the accompanying •ketch, without extra charge. 17 SAND AND CLAY. Water 3 Waters An early reply will greatly oblige, as it is necessary for mo to make special •rangemc.ls for tha transport of material if my proposal is approved of. arrangem Jas. II. Rowan, Esq. I remain, Your obedient servant, (Signed) JOSEPH WHITEHEAD. The day following the date of that report, v i. on Ihe 23rd May ^oft on leave of abscti"e for EnglatS, and did not return nntil the end of Octob^i 1 'ett ^' • MaJcuK Sn^Uh o act n my place during my absence, and on my return, being Engaged wTu. other matters."^ lnowed him'to continue .^attend fj ^luU sec i^ an^ ho has oraclicallv done so ever since, an.l he has certified tor all the woilc tliat nas E^en done sS'o my return. The folhwing certificates have hoe., issued by Mr. Smith:— • --7 77 November 21st, 1878 * Ifo'l'l Vi December 12th, 1878 i-!. ^n'^ 81 January 14lh. 1^79 Allxi^ l± • February 13th, 1879 W^l'tr' sJ March 11 ih, 1879 1,-7.>,J.- s<^ The printed form of the certificate requires that the P'"'t3- -if,''''"^' 'V'^'^j'^.^'l^f, the au luir V o.. which the work has been e-xecuted, and Mr. Smith has ,n all these dtirer certiH^d that the work has been executed by order of the Department of ^"'As'Imatle'o^Tac^rve'p^^^^^^^ or instructions to make anvchang^h thecEcte oV^^e^^^ l^'-^olv iMcreasc or in any ^Jinc^^'se the cost of the section. I'havo no pmver, and no one ;|"'J «;;";« has Ty power, to give any such orders without the knowledge and authority of the "^TtU^l^'-foctly true I recommended, on the 22nd May ^-^ ,>-";- J^i=jS,::,-*„7, change should be made, and that I expected when I left for England that the change 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A 1879 would be auU.on/AHl by the Deparlnicnt. Looking at the laoo of the certificate* above nlod, the only inference to be drawn in that Mr. Marcus Smith had received an order from the J)ei)artmont to make the change, or had satisfied himself that such an order existed. Since my return to Canada, in October last, 1 have made only one report an ?' -t |,^- (Memorandum.) Since ray examination before the Honorable Committee I have read the letter of the Engineer in-Chief, Mr. Fleming, to the Honorable the Minister of Public Works, dated April 29th, 1879. Jn reference to the monthly certificates, I have to state that I signed those at the request of Mr. P'leming, anJ was no further responsible for them than that they were made out strictly in aecoi-dance with the detailed estimates sent in to this office by the District-Engineer who is responsible for the quantities, and I had no reason to doubt that he was executing the works by order of the Department of Public Work* under the instructions of the Engineer-in-Chief. As regards any changes in the works, by substituting solid embankments for trestle-work, I have to repeat that Mr. Ilowan stated to me that Mr. Fleming shDwed him his letter to the Department of Public Works, dateroceed in accordance therewith— at least this is what Mr. Rowan distinctly stated to me. In my evidence I stated that on receiving a copy of Mr. Fleming's letter of th« *22nd May— which I did, at Winnipeg, on the 19th of September— 1 ihado no appli- cation to the Department of Public Works to ascertain if the recommendation con- tained therein hud been authorized, because I had no doubt that it had been so far approved as to Justify Mr. Fleming to instruct Mr. Rowan to proceed with the works- in accordance therewith. It will be seen, moreover, that it would have been useless my writing to the Department, because a categorical answer to the question resjjcct- ing tlio cliai,„os would not have assisted luo, for, on my insj)ection of the works, 1 had found that the plans of construction would have to be remodeled and a new proposi- tion submitted to the Department of Public Works, which I shall now enuoavor to explain briefly. 1 went over the whole of the section in company with Mr. Carre, the resident engineer, and Mr. Ruttan, the contractor's engineer, and took notes of every work of importance. 1 was strongly impressed with the meagernoss of the informaiion obtained respecting the depth of soft mud and the dip ot the rock in the bottoms of the numerous small lakes that hud to be crossed. It appeared evident to me that in some ot these it would be found that neither trestle-work or solid einbaiiknients would be suitable, and permanent bridging n.i^ht have to be adopted; and that in other places trestle-work might bo applicable ia one case and solid embankment in another. In fact each of these difficult portions of the work required a special study, and proper works on any geiiei-al theoretical system could not be designed on the in- dufficiont datain possession of the engineers. Therefore, after arriving in Winnipeg, 1 telegraphed to Ottawa for a set of boring tools, and gave instructions to the engineer in charge to get all the information possi ble. At several points I believe that a deviation of the line would greatly reduce the quantity of excavation, and I gave instructions for surveys to be maile to test this. 1 then worked a fortnight in the office endeavoring to solve some of the difficulties, and ailowed the formation of rock embankments at the foot of the slope* from ruck taken out of the cuttings, according to the plan proposed by Mr. Rowan, 122 A 187» 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 ■ead the letter of f Public Works, gned those at tlie in that they were this office by id no reason to of Public Work* mbankments for Iteming showed y, 1878, recom- 1 assured thatch is- s to Mr. Rowan distinctly stated g's letter of tli0 ihado no ajipli- iinendution cou- lad been so fur . with the work* ive been useless question respect- Ihe works, 1 had a new propowi- ow enuouvor to •e, the resident of every work the informaiion the botloins of lit to mo that in d einbaiikriionts ed ; and that in embankment in J a special study, igncd on the in- or a set of boring the information 3atly reduce the iile to test this. ve some of the )ol of the slope* by Mr. Bow an. and which in a case that had been submitted to mo in October, 1877, I had approved, because I found in that case it would bo the m<»«t economical distribution (»f the rock taken from the cuttings, and it does not necessarily imply the immediate tilling in with earth ; trestle-work may be used at first, and when this decays earth embank- ments may besubstituted ; but in some cases I lound ti-estle-work would bo almost impracticable, or at least not economical in deep water where a rock base would have to be formed or piling that would have to bo braced under water. There was, in fact, very little earth embankments done at this time or could bo done for many months. Before leaving Winnipeg I gave Mr. Rowan instructions to have all the surveys made which I had suggested, and to obtain all necessary informistion with the least possible delay, and to send me monthly reports of all that was being done on the works ; also to have as close an estimate as possible made of the cost of completing the works, this is to be in Ottawa not later than the end of January. I regret to say that, notwithstanding letters and telegrams both from Mr. Flem- ing and myself, 1 have not to this day received one report, or the estimate asked for. This so embarrassed me that on the 17th February 1 wrote to Mr. Iteming asking him to relieve rae from further responsibility, and take the matter into his own hands. He has since informed me that he intends to send out an ongineei specially to investigate and report on the works of this section. I had, however, a letter from Mr, Carre, iho resident engineer, dated 30th Nov- ember, 1878, in which he states that the deviations of the line which I suggested had proved very satisfactory ; and within the last twenty-four hours he has shown nio the plans, profiles and comparative quantities of the two lines, which shew a saving of not less than $130,000 by the deviations, if solid embankments are made. The ^^av- ing would be less in comparison if trestle-work wore adopted, but thi-t is scarcely practicable in some places. On December 20th, I telegraphed Mr. Rowan that for the crossing of War Ragle Lake to make a rock embaidcment a little above water level, with a trestle super- structure, as I found this would bts the most economical under all cucumstunces, and could be renewed with iron trestle or bridging. At Lake Deception I allowed the work to go on as it had been ordored by Mr. Fleming, as I am informed, in 1877, that is an earth ombankmont, as there is pKMity of earth close at hand. These are the only special instructions l have given since [ left Winnipeg. It is evident that suitable works for this section can only be designed by intel- ligent study of each difficulty, and not by anj' general theory, and that thu data obtained on this as on the other sections befoio the letting of the contract, wore so deplorably insufficient, that in whatever way the works are carried out the cost must greatly exceed the original estimate. I'he difficulty of properly remodelling the ■ plans of the.se works in accordance with better information now obtained, is greatly aggravated by a tender having been accepted so inconsistent that in some of the items the; will be a large profit, and in others a positive loss, so that in any altera,- tion of the works which the engineer is empowered to make according to the " condi- tions ofcontract," the contractor may suffer a great loss or get so gi-eat an advantage that if worked out to the new quantities it may be found that the lowest tender has not been accepted. MARCUS SMITH. 123 .1.'::. 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 ADDENDA No. 3 r' t. ■pm' ENOiNEEa's Okpice, Canal.'^ Pacikk; Railway, Ottawa, 6th May, 1879. Siu, I bog jtermissiori to cull the uttontion of tho Honorable Com'nitto to certain statements, made before the Coinmiiteo, respectin*^ tlie works on Contract No. 15 : — 1. In October, 1877, I inspected the works on some portions of the Canada Pacific Railway, and my attention, for the first lime, was called to Contract No. 15. I andwivorod to visit Ihat .section, bat tli* steamer on tho Lake of the Woods failed to meet mo as had been agreed on. Only one hour before the steamboat started from Winnij)eg, by which I was to proceed on my way to Otta^pa, Mr. ilowan, the District Engineer, and Mr. Riitt^m, the Contractor's Engineer, submitted a proposal ibr some alterations between Stations 230 and 290 (four to five miles from Rat Por- tage), about a mile and a quarter in length, that would greatly facilitate the Contrac- tor's operations, at tho same time making a more economical distribution of the rock taken fi-om the cuttings than originally proposed. I agreed to this verbally, but warned Mr. Rowan not to make any other changes without application to me at Ottawa, accompanied by profiles, quantities and estimates, as I had no power to mak« any considerable changes without the approval of the Department of Public Works. So that Mr. Rowan had no authority from me to write the letter to Mr. Carre which he read before the Committee yesterday, nor to alter any other portion of the workv but that w hich had been submitted to me and approved. On my return to Ottawa, I told the Minister of Public Works what I had done and what instructions 1 liad given to Mr. Rowan, which he approved. No more correspondence took place respecting the works on this section till Mr. Rowan submitted a report to me on the 5th March, 1878. Parliament was then in Session, and I was so much engaged on more pressing business that I could not look at the report for some time. When I did glance at ii,, it appeared to be based on in- sufficient data and too theoretical to merit consideration, and it was laid aside. So little did 1 think of it, I told Mr. Rowan he must get more information before I could give it any attention. Mr. Fleming arrived about this time from England, and it appears, in evidence, that an amended report was submitted to him and approved by him; and he recom- mended the Department of Public Works to have the character of the works changed in accordance therewith. But I knew nothing of this till I arrived in Winnipeg in September following. On going over tho section, I found that the rock taken from the cuttings was being disposed in two narrow embankments, where water had to bo crossed, in the same manner as I had approved in the short section submitted to me in October pre- vious, instead of tho original manner proposed by Mr. Fleming, Mr. Rowan had no authority for this, but 1 could see no groat objection to it as it would be, in most cases, the most economical way of disposing of the rock ; and where trestle-work was intended to bo erected, it had always been understood that, on its decay, earth embankments would be substituted ; so that these narrow embankments would bo a protection to the foot of the slopes against the action of tho wafer whenever tho embankments were made. There were, however, portions of embankments made at several points, w^hichl can point out on the profile, where trestle-work was originally intended, some of whiclj had been dbne in 1877, before I had anything to do with the works, and othero since the change was recommended by Mr, Fleming; so that I was perfectly correct 11:4 A. 1879 May, 1879. •nitto to cortuin tract No. 15 : — of tlio Canada ontract No. 15. e Woods failed lamboat started M.r. Elowan, the ttod a propoijal from Rat Por- te the Contrac- ion of the rock 8 verbally, but ition to me at power to mako ' Public Works. Lr. Carre which jp of the work» lat I had done section till Mr. nt was then in could not look bo based on in- laid aside. So 1 before I could PS, in evidence, and ho rocora- works changed in Winnipeg in e cuttings was crossed, in the in October pre- Bowan had no lid be, in most re trestle-work its decay, earth ats would be a whenever tho points, which I ended, some of )rks, and others erfectly correct 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 in stntiitg thai, on my visit, I fo'iiul that Ihu wurUs won' \n-\\\;x cai rioij out in acroid ancovvitli Mr. Fleming's rcouinmoiuliition. The Hmall (piantity of work (lone (looH not fotilradict tlrH, as UieiK hail boon little time to do much hosidos llio rock cutting, only two nionllis iiavingolii|isi'(l frcMii the time of Mr. Rowan's roliiin lo Winnipeg and that of my visit ; lint liotii Kn- gineers and Contractors understood that tho works woi'e being carried out according to Mr. Fleming's roconnnendation. Fvory projiaralion was being made for this. The ContrJictor was getting in costly plant, including steam-siiovcds, for liiis work, and not, as Mr. IJowan stated, foi' ballast pits, but in addition lo what wore used m those iiits; and no |n-cparalion was being made toi- trestle-work, allliougli tho Contractor's Engineer had rejioatedly asked lor bills of timber for the same, notwitlislanding Mr. Rowan's statement to tho contrary. The enclosed cojiie* of letters will attest, that tact. On (ith FY'buniry, 1 sent instructions to Mr. Rowan directing him how to make the borings at Cross Lake, by which tho eharacler of tho stiiiciuro would be detor- mined. But 1 have just learned that, notwithstanding the object for which these borings aie being made, the (.'ontractor has been allowed to put n|)temporaiy trostlo- work with the avowed object of making an earth embankment. This is directly C(mtrary to my instructions; and the object of wilbbolding the monthly lejwrts that I rc<[uested Mr. Rowan to send tome, now ayipoars to have been to conceal from nu! what was going on ; and I have no doubt that everything that has been done since my visit, lias been done in accmdance with the change in the works recommended by Mr. Fleming, but done without my knowledge. I have tho honor to be, Sii', " Yorr obctlient servant, MARCUS SMITH. lion. 1). Ij. Maci'HKRson, Chairman, Committee on Pacitie Railway. 125 42 Vicloriii. Appendix (No. 1 ) A. 1879 Ut ADDENDA No. 4. CANADIAN PACIFIC UAILWAY. Contract 15.— Apimioximatk Hst[mateh. CoMi'AiiATiVE Estimiite of Cost to complete Contract 15 with TrosMo-work, accord- ing^ to Contnu't, us against cost of coraploti'tt with Protecliou-bunks und Earth- ttlls over water stretchos, and Tiosllo-work over land openings. El*., i III;.. 1* I .1 S :m . ■ i'^: IF i!; m it Uesuriiitiun of Work. Approxiiunte Estimate to com- plete witli Tre3t'e-Work, ac- cordiDg to Contract. Clearinff Acres Oluse ci.tlinn " Grubb'ng (including side ditches^ " Solid rocK excavation c. yardi tioose rock ercavation " i Earth e.xcavatiou (includiag I borrowing) " Excavation in off take ditches beyond railway limits " Eartn excavfilion undei- water " Under-drains 100 1. ft Tunnelling for railway (sec- tional area equal to 16 cubic yards to the lineal foot) 1. feet Twelve-feet tunnels for streams (4 cubic yards per linenl foot) " Eight-feet tunnels for streams (:i cubic yurds per lineal foot) " Six-feet tunnels for streams (1 cubic yard per lineal foot) .. " Bridge masonry c. yard Crib-work in abutments and piers of bridges (including timber and stone ftlling), also crib wharling " Rip-rap " Bndge superstructure— timber —40 leet Bpan..» Per span Carried forward....M>.»...... Quanti- ties. Rates. 35 516,2'.!6 95,7.')« 224,138 9,100 1,000 8,226 615 400 Amount. $ cts. 200 30 00| 7 50 00 Approximate Estimate to com- plete with Protection-Walls and Earth-Banks across water stretches and Trestle-Work over land openings. 80 00 2 76 1 75 37 45 1 11 55 001 $ cts. 6,000 00 360 00, 2,800 00 1,419,621 60 167,573 00 82,931 06 4,095 00 1,110 00 1,774 00 I 650' 8001 2,000 1,700 2,600 7 00 11 00 600 00 126 30 00 15,430 00 14 00, 5,600 Oi) 9 001 5,860 00 6,600 00 22,000 00 4,675 00, 5,000 00 600 00 Quanti- ties. Rates, Amount. $ cts. 200, 30 00 7! 50 00 35 516,226 95,766 998,582 615 400 650 800 2,000 80 00 2 75 1 75 37 $ cU. 6,000 00 360 00 2,800 00 1,419,621 50 167,573 00 369,476 34 9,100 45 4,095 00 1,000 1 111 1,110 00 3,226 55 00' 1,774 00 30 00 14 00 9 00 7 00 11 00 Ii 600 00 15,430 00 6,600 00 6,860 00 5,600 00 22,000 00 4,676 00 6,000 00 600 00 A. 1879 stlo-work, ac.corcl- bunks und Hurth- ,te Estimate to cora- ith Protection-Walls h-Banks across wator and Trestle-Work 1 opeaiDgB. Rates, Amount. $ cts. $ cU. 30 00 50 00 6,000 00 350 00 80 00 2 75 1 75 2,800 00 1,419,621 50 167,573 00 37 369,475 34 45 1 11 55 00 4,095 00 1,110 00 1,774 00 30 00 15,430 00 14 00 6,600 00 9 00 6,850 00 7 00 11 00 6,600 00 22,000 00 4,675 00 6,000 00 600 00 600 00 2 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 1879 Contract 15.— (Jompiinitivo Eslimtito of Cowt to cotnplote Contract 15, ki-.—Con. Approximate Rutimate to oom- Annroximato Rgtimate to com- plete wiitli I'roteotioo-walU plete with Trcntle-work, ac- and Rarih-buuks acrotn water- Ocscription of Work. RrouKht forward aiiuare limber, 16 in. by 12 in..l. f)Ot do 15 in. by 12 in. do 15 in, by 9 in.. li do 12 In by 12 in.. do 12 in. by 9 in.. do 12 in. by 6 in- do 9 in. by 9 in.. do l» in. by 8 in. a do (t in by 4 in.. Roiinil timber i.fsi/.H to square, 12 in. by 12 in.. . do 12 in by 10 in. do 12 in. by 9 in. li do 12 in. bv 6 in.. do 12 in. by 4 in.. (1 do 9 in. by 9 in„ tt do 9 in by 6 in.. do 9 In by 4 in.. n do (i in. by 4 in . 8-inch;flHtte.1 timboi- Hemlock or 3| iriice plank .per M . b.m Pioe plank .. Hardwood plunk Wrought iron includingbolts. spikes, stmps, Ac per lb. Caat iron Total value of trestle-work under contract cording to Contract. Qnanti- ties. Rates $ cts. Amouni, stretches, and Trestle-work orer land-opi^nlnga. Quanti- ties. f cts. 600 84,000: 84,000, 1,000 1 20,000, 140,000! 246,0001 225,000 84,0u0 i 260,000 44,000] 16,000, 81,000 14,000| 74,000 198,000: 16,000' 29,000 1,000 645,000' 1,000 1,000 325,000 1,000 33 30 30 30 28 28j 25 26 20 18 17 17 121 10 12 10 08 06 12 12 00 25 00 20 00 13 10 165 00 25,200 00 25,200 00 300 00 6,600 00 39,200 00 61,250 00 56,250 00 16,800 OOj 46,81)0 001 7,480 OOl 2,560 OOl 9,720 OOl 1,400 00| 8,880 00 19,800 00 1,200 00 1,740 00 120 00 7,740 00 26 00 20 00 42,250 00 1,000 00 Rates. I Amount. $ uts. Bulk sum for tres- tle-work over land openings.. Ties No. Track-Kiying per mile Kiillastin'ft cjrard Points and crossings Sets. Extra haul, distance feet....e yard Wages, with 15 per cent, added Total 287,2001 118 217,000 28 380,700 00 4o; ■J90 00 33 •10 00 113,280 00 34.220 00 7i;610 00 280 00 18,000 00 2,500 00 287,200 118 217,000 28 $2,372,099 56 40 290 00 30 10 eo f CU. 278,745 00 113,280 00 34,220 00 71,610 00 280 00 18,600 00 2,500 00 $2,566,089 04 JAMES H. ROWAN, District Engineer. Ottawa, 7th May, 1818. 3 m 42 Victoria. ApiMjiulix (No. 1.) A. ni9 a o «J i a o 3 o tf> d •< 2 (^ (2 m s — Of" u m ^ o S W •< tj i 83SSSS8 n SSSSS i o -. 1- PI r- C't in t^ 7^ ^ ^ M « C « O O w f r^ on on ■n m ^ M •n M o fO OC -t "f ri — < I- I- ?^ M I '^ ! O fO P» trOocjifii-'NOK'j ;iB ii--«f5 *;■;' c c^ 7i 11.. ( ) ■u 1 M, 1 CO g ■is o ST. 2 Vw' f. M a m a ° » -™ ' • 00 D t "^ ««ccsoo<» 7, »H i; o XXXXXf S mP-bcg « OSPuH A^^7(. J, t, m M-ot — » ^ ti 0.i*T3 B' n' £ _o p. ^ ^ =■— h A. 1879 3 O in lO . «• M ^ e c* j rt - I- M M -• M C> «■! M -f — C •s 1 lO lo o 2 -« ^ •-< I— , o s o c o i e -^ GC ^ a «■! -i c • iS ; in m i o o o -i -* .-H 3 O -< cc O fO M I- — (*) -f «» in C — 00 ■«i"0 e» i o © CO ^1 f "ii m 8o t- -♦ -■ rj, rt -^ * Of* O O O O O ^ Cvl X c o o o o o 42 Victoria Appendix (No 1.) A. 1879 Oi ■ ea m a " '^§ p. — o„ m •«"»" fe S 2 ■ :xxf S sP-btS - ss — 35 « M * 9! — _ wco M Sir rt o MM© "(lO « <«i : i ! I : 8^*^ g iS SS8JSS2 2 3 irtirt Vqcs t-rt flb 06 coe-i rttOM m^ A rt « t>f (X S(^ rt © MM© ■■CO © -* M t^ m Pi ^ a *■«« O 01 01 u S-S 9 "^ « 5:s o) o c :4<>S MC» XX <0 M CO o 11 o 2 » «£ o a M 8c§:S ■3.S p.St3 SalsS .1 CO s £; t" £r oooo *o •^ i-H "^ O CB a o o o •*» -t^ «« o d o I o •a e ^- o e o o *o *© 'O I % .a 5 t 1 I e o _o CI IS o 3 O d M a .2 WO Mog 8 08 • I -o «£ 1—9 129 ; I .4'' r 4''i ti ^-'J 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) A. 18*79 ADDi-x^DA No. 6 Memorandi'M.— Canadian Pacific Rnilwin— Sun.-^hincOreok to EngliHh Eivo"-— Contract No. zb, liUh March, 1^71). As per Schedule on which Con- l As executed \i\t to 30th Novem- tract was based. | ber, 1878. Oescripiioii of Work. Clearing Acres Close cuttinp; " Grnbbinac, iucluiling side (litchi-s " Solid ri)C'l« eiciivation C. yds Loose do " Earth exciivation, iiicliid- ing boiTDwing " Bxctiviitioii in off-ialjo ditches beyond liniiis " Under liraius, j/cr 100 lineal feet L. ft. Line ttinntls, 15 cubic yards to lineiil foot " AVidcniri^ bunks " Howe TrufiS-bridges, 100 feet clear Spans Howe Trusa-bridges, 80 feet cleiir " Howe 'I'niss-bridgts, 60 feet clear " Howe Tiii-s-briilgps, 40 feet clear " Crib-work in abutments and piers 0. 3^ds Rip-rap . " Piles L. ft. Square tiinb r, 16 x 1.^ " do 12 X 12. " do 12 X 6. " do 9 X 8 " do 9X 6 " Hemlock or spruce plank, per 1,000 feci B. M. Pine plank, per 1,000 feet.., " Hardwood plank do ... " Flatted timber, 8 inches '' Sheet piling " Wrought iron, bolid, spikes, &c Lbs. Cast iron " Ties Per tie Traek-laying Permile Ballasting iH 1,384,646 63 im mm ta A. U19 :lish Eivei---Conti'act ited i)]) to GOih Novem- ber, 1878. a^ Rate. Amuiint. $ cts, 9,528 75 a,1l9 70 21,:r79 60 115,2-0 00 99,000 00 33 65", 100 00 cts. 25 00 30 00 80 00 1 50 90 10 00] 9 Ool 38 280 00 70,830 00 31,578 76 2,800 00' 2,100 oo! 5,600 00 2,100 00 r t 4 oo' 2 fiOl 25i 50 40 20 20 18 11,800 09 19,900 00 14,9.')0 00 9,350 00 36,560 00 780 00 1.5,520 00 5,304 00 20 CO' 82-i 00 20: 30 00 ; I 10 lOi 26 300 00 I 381 50 00 t .38 26 300 00 38 tiO 00 1 1 i 5,060 00 3:i6 00 7,16) 00 3,740 00 62,660 00 30,600 00 75,581 24 750 00 l,:il0,206 05 .^0.628 00 520 00 4,161 00 38,0.S6 26 r.5ii 00 494 32 1^ ■<■'') i6 1,384,645 63 42 Victoria. Appendix (Na. 1.) A. 1879 ADDENDA No. 7. MEJiou.\Ni>u.M.~-(.'oiilrnpt No. 15. — •'^Trtuling and BriJging. Cross Lixko to Kocwalin — length, 36J miles ; Tr.>ck-liiying Jind Ballasting, Selkirk to Koowatin — lo'i<^th, liiii miles. Ongcription of Work. As i)er Schedule Contract was oa which based. Ah Expcntpd to February, 28iti, I •'79. I'^i'ies*''! R*tc. Amount. Clcavinc Acres CU)S<' e'liting " i Grubbinir, iucIndiiiK side ditehra | an(i ofT-tiik'! driiins '' Solid rock e-veavntian C. yds Loose do '' Earth excavntion (including bor- rowini;) " Earth cxe«v aion und( r water .. . " I Excavation in off-take drains I boyouil i:ul\vay limits " ; Under-drains . p. 100 1. f.j Bridge, Howe Truss 40' dear s(>an 500 20' t .50 ; •,00(> I! ',000 >-'\000 $ Cts.; 30 00 .50 00- 80 00 2 751 1 75l 37 Qianti- ties. I Rate. I .\ mount. $ cts. 15,000 00 1,000 001 4.000 OOi 825,000 00 52,500 00' 126-17 2-07: 13-20 34 '.376 ■10.711 29,600 OOi 224,300 355 Line tunu'ds. 15 c. yds to lin. t'r. Stream do 20 ft., 12 c. y. do 16 8 12 4 8 2 6 1 ft. do .do 'llO do 4o ■ do do do Rip-rap C. yds Bridge masonry " Crib-work, in abutmeuts and piers of bridges " Square timber, 16 X 12 L. ft. do do do do 8 00 941,531 00 8 ',7 14 2S 82,093 21 39 iS 1,018 to 581 90 332 .30 00; 9,960 00 18 9 00 162 00 1,045 00' 1,070 165 00] 25,200 00 25,200 00' 300 00 2 75 2,942 iO 20,000: 28 5,00.) 00 140,000 2S 39,200 00 245,000 25 61,2.50 00 225,000 25 56,250 00 27,532 220' 30, -28 1 8,259 m 61 M B. M. (( II Lbs. Flatted timber, 8' Plank, hemlock or spruce, 1000 f.. do pine " do hardwood " Wrouglil iron — bolts, spikes Cast iron " ! Ties per tie Trnck-layintr per mile Ballnsting C. yds. Points and crossiiig^ each ; Extra haul j Wages with 15 per cent, added | Material delivered 84,000 260,000 A i,noo| 16,0001 81,000 14,000i 7.J,';00; 198,000; 1!>,000' '20,000' 1,000 645,000 1,000 1,000 325,000 10,000 270,000 116 186,000 26 20 IS 17 17 12 10 12 10 08 06 12 12 ool 25 00' 20 00 13 10 10 290 00 33 10 00 16,800 40,800 7,480 2,560 9,7li 1,400 8,880 19,800 1,200 1,7V) 120 7,'i40 25 20 42.250 1,000 108,000 33,640 61,:S80 260 00 ,,. OOl... Ml.., ool.., 00,. Uul.., 00 .., 00!.., 1,258: 15,181} 1,436' 25 25, 20 314 50 3,795 2» 287 20 00 I ool 00'. 00'. 00 00 00 00 ool 00 00 2,605' 12 312 ?■) d e S o o o o « o (O io CI o o e« c op t- m r-( -. ■* « io — « w ad"«oe a — o 50 5 3 "ssss^^g '- « ■♦ooooo -t 00 lo «5 m o e e« c« •Hm n K) ; ::::::': : ::::::! i ' ■ : ; : : ? 1 sir-'^'ss, 4 -.- -i.l 3 -. ^ <0 I §5gS?Sg i m ■* c o c o o 4 1 "oo io m lo'o oeV o «^i t^ -M 00 5© ^ 00 COi- O 00 * ef^io"c t- ^ rH «5 **» 5 © o o leTiij o oco ^ e4c« «o ■*© o o oo 42 Victoria. Appendix (No. 1.) 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