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' . ^ HOUSE OF COMMONS-SESSION 1880, / '"'.., ' (Montreal :. ,:,■<", • '';^ ' ^ '''-1% PRINTED HY THE GAZETTE PRINTING COMPANY. \ ;4 ■■Av.t- :/'■ -u~i 'it - ' '-*_ 1B80. mmmmmwimi''^ wfmmmmifmm^^mimmmmmwimmmm^F'i'^^W^r^ THE PACIFIC RAILWAY POLICY. • Jii ) /f i.-'t ;;(". .1.1 1/ By way of preface to the speeches -which follow, we give the following, "which appeared in the Parliamentary correspondence of the Montreal Gazette on Sir Charles Tiqjper's speech, in which the railway policy of the late and present Administrations was contrasted, and a statement made of the progress and estimated cost of the great national work. The letter was ■dated Ottawa, 15th April — The fioor and galleries were early filled this afternoon, and an unusual air of expectant interest was noticeable. Her Royal Highness the Princess Lou'se honored Sir Charles Tupper by coming to hear him on that most important of A\ subjects just now, the Canadian Pacific Railway. The routine business was quickly run through, so that by half-past three Sir Charles was fairly under way. Commencing with deliberation, and hold- ing the ear of the House at once, he put in a few well chosen vvords as to t'ie magnitude and gravity of the question. Then followed a sketch, historical and polemic, of the policies of the preceding Governments. He established in the most incisive manner Mr. Mackenzie's assumption of the construction of the Pacific Railway and the vast extension of that previous liability which had been so much condemned and distrusted by the Reform party when on the wrong side of the House. The Georgian Bay branch and the Canada Central subsidy added four millions at one end, the Esquimault and Nanaimo road the same sum at the other. Then there was a hard hit at the famous " Carnarvon terms," which have now become so proverbial that, like most adages, their original meaning is often for- gotten. Some of yoifl- readers may be astonished to be reminded that they meant (ist) the construction of the Nanaimo and Esquimault branch ; (2nd) the pushing on of the surveys on the mainland of British Columbia ; (3 id) the building of the waggon road and telegraph ; (4th) two millions of dollars a year to be the minimum expenditure within the province; (5th) the completion of the whole line from Lake Superior to the Pacific in 1890. After all this, Sir Charles Tupper's enquiry whether this Government is not entitled to at least the support of the Opposition for a policy which pro- mises but a comparatively moderate expenditure and immediate results, had much appropriateness, and all the more when the enormous Reform expenditure upon works which remain useless without the completion of the missing links and the construction of enough of the main line to serve as a feeder, is taken into consideration. Sir Charles began to take a little of the wind out of Mr. Blake's sails by reminding him that he abetted all this expenditure by entering the Ministry which undertook it. A point which will meet with welcome is the statement of the reduction of cost that is expected on the works already undertaken. Instead of " basing con- tracts upon guess work and hypotheses," Sir Charles has brought h.s engineers down to work and figures. The result is already a saving oF $319,000 in the estimated cost of section 41. The same process is going on on section 42, and we have the assurance that those contracts will be completed within the time stated, and that their cost will be reduced by over half a million dollars. Mr. Mackenzie's British Columbia tactics give him the option of explaining whether, when he advertised for tenders for the Yale-Kamloops line, he meant business, or whether, if it was, as he now says, an elec- tioneering trick, he was justified in spending $32,400 for carrying rails from Victoria to Yale. " Litera scripta manet." Hansard is an awkward repository of words sometimes. So Mr, Mackenzie found it wlien he denied his depreciation of ths public lands for political ends. He was nailed at once by his own upeech, in effect saying that not only had settlers to be given land for nothing, but to be paid for going to the Northwest. His dogging of the English mission of last year, and his patriotic letter to the Manchester Examiner, in which Canadian credit and Canadian energy were alike vilified, got a sharp touching up from Sir Charles. A notable thing was the reply to the Opposition taunts and gloating over the fall of the English Conservatives. Sir Charles Tupper made it clear that, as far as political sympathies can be supposed to stretch across the Atlantic, names had little to do with Canada's prospects, and that the true Liberals were to be found on the right of the Canadian Speaker. Mr. Forster's avowal as to the Mother Country's true policy corges from one who has weight in English Liberal thought. His expressions fall in no way short of Lord Beaconsfield's. It is only too likely for their gratification that the charitable wishes of the Opposition, that the Canadian Government will be embarrassed by the defeat of Lord Beaconsfield, are doomed to disappoint- ment. The cost of the Pacific Railway and the means to build it will have a keen interest for everybody. These are Sir Charles Tupper's calculations ; they are based on what are admittedly high estimates, and include the equipment of the road : — 406 miles from Thunder Bay to Selkirk, $17,000,000; 1,000 miles from Selkirk to the Jasper Valley in the Rocky ftmrnm pletion of e to serve Lke a little ibetted all A point ,f cost that )asing con- irougbt h.s a saving oJ" ;ess is going racts will be reduced by ^e option of Lle-Kamloops ays, an elec- ing rails from an awkward ^ it wiien be nds. He was ay had settlers the Northwest, .triotic letter to anadian energy tes. A notable over the fall of ;lear that, as far ss the Atlantic, Lhe true Liberals . Mr. Forster's otn one who has 1 in no way short tification that the 3vernment will be cied to disappoint- lild it will have a per's calculations ; , and include the r Bay to Selkirk, Uey in the Rocky Mountains, $13,000,000; 540 miles from Jasper Valley, through British Columbia to Port Moody on the Pacific, divided as follows— 335 miles from Jasper Valley to Kamloops, $1 5,500,000 ; 1 25 miles from Kamloops to Yale, now under contract, $10,000,000, and 90 miles from Yale to Port Moody, $3,500,000 ; add $1,000,000 ; making a total of $60,000,000 to build the road from I,ake Superior to the Pacific. The cost of surveys — $1 ,61 2,000 in British Columbia; $1,507,000 in the eastern sections, a total of $3,119,000 — has to be added. Then there is the Pembina Branch, costing $1,750,000, making a total of $64,869,000. The 600 miles from Fort William to Lake Nipissing may be deferred for some years, but if Sir Charles Tupper's anticipations prove true, it will not be long before public feeling, the development of the Northwest, and the competition for its enormous grain trade will demand the completion of the great national through route. Mr. Fleming's estimate of its cost is $20,000,000 ; Sir Charles thinks it might be fairly put at $30,000 per mile ; but taking the latter figure, it would cost $20,000,000, and wolild make a grand total of $84,870,000; taking the mean, say, in round numbers, $85,000,000. Now, where is the money to come from? Sir Charles, taking Sir John Macdonald's figures, and backed up by the G/ol>e in doing so, shows that if only 550,000 people settle in the Northwest during the next ten years — ■ and this, it must be remembered, is an estimate based on the actual immi" gration of the past few years — the country will receive from the sale of lands $38,000,000 in cash, and will have $32,000,000 falling in for the balances remaining, secured upon the lands sold — $70,000,000 in all, or enough to build the road from Lake Superior to the Pacific. In defence of the under- taking of the Yale-Kamloops section, Sir Charles found the G/ode again a potent ally. For that newspaper, counting upon the settlement ii\ British Columbia of 100,000 people only, which it argues is a number there is no reason to doubt, shows that they would pay the cost of the line in the Pacific Province. The commercial prospects of the railway were ably discussed. If Sir Charges Tupper seems to take a sanguine view, he has abundant in- formation for it in the receipts of the Pembina branch for March of this year — $24,771, or equal to 17 percent, per annum on the capital. With this exemplar, the 700 miles that will be in operation in 1882 bid fair to at least pay the interest upon their cost. That your readers may appreciate the progress of railway communication with the Northwest, it may be as well to state that these 700 miles are made up as follows : — 406 from Thunder Bay to Selkirk on the Red River, the branch thence to Winnipeg 13 miles, 200 west of Winnipeg, and the Pembina branch south 85 miles. The Sault Ste, Marie project, its importance and its superiority over the United States lines, with which it would contend for the western carrying trade, were touched upon, Sir Charles frankly ^owning his former doubts of its usefulness, and accounting for his change of opinion. Montreal will read with satisfac-- tion his remarks on this subject. A speech remarkable as much for its solidity and accuracy of statement as for its easy delivery and the readiness with which casual objections were dealt with, was wound up by a peroration patriotic not political, an'd as bril- liant as it was broad in scope and statesmanlike. The applause that fol-i< lowed was beyond t'ae u.«;ual measure that the House accords. It is seldom indeed that a national event, such as to-day's exposition of the Government's policy may well be deemed, is so thoroughly brought home to the people of Canada and so ably impressed upon the minds of their representatives. Never, I believe, since the days of 1873, with one exception only, that of the introduction of the National policy, have the galleries been so filled, nor has there been such intense general interest in any political topic. I ' 'I .1^: UW A If'i I At i ■ i i ■ t -.' , 1 ( ,'■ • ' ;;{. ..,.• , .. ; ■ ■■ .1; ,■ • •. ;j: ■ ••;!■,- ■ j' ■ ^ ■ •'. '■;-"i '_ fH; ■li.i.i-' --^-iivf^-.^ >^- ' ■ »...'■ :';'>^' -:^iy:' '■■''{ ^' '': :,''.-' 1, , ■;.i'i -n-il ■- ;.'■•(' tJi'fJ/ iTxV'f.'i's ..' ^■:-: . '" r :.'.■!; iM\ \. . ,.i .... .1., ;. ,; - ■■,-i'Vi'r !!'..(• / I t' o..i.:> •>(/'■■ -:. . J ' .*. tri W-w M'lt V.;:.' bi'- '• ■■■i^A. 'd ess, ifac- ' nent wcrt bril- . fol- Idoni lent's )le of lives, hat of d, nor V. •t JrtU'JjJt f.!;JjuiN>'"> )l«i''iH t'Ht. Mcnnti *<:. jt mi ***>'(* >r for; THE PACIFIC RAILWAY DEBATE. '."-!."■ HON. SIR CHARLES TUPPER'S SPEECH. On Thursday, April the 15th, 1880, on motion, to ^o into Committee of Supply,^ • , , Sir Charle-s Tupper rose and said : — Mr. Speaker, — I liad intended to submit to the House the resolutions respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, required by the circumstances that have occurred between the period at which the resolutions were carried, last session, and the present time, but I do not intend to pursue thai course because it might be thought more convenient, that, as arranged, the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake), should have an opportunity, upon the conclusion of my statement, of making the motion, of which he has given notice, and which he would be precluded from doing, if I were to submit at this moment the resolutions I shall, at a later period, ask the House to concur in. On rising to address the House, on one of the most important question.-; that can engage its attention, I pro- pose, on the present, as on the last occasion on which I addressed the House on this subject last session, to avoid iu Uie fair and candid criticism to which I shall be obliged to subject ihe proceeding and policy of the honorable gentleman opposite, the use of a single remark, in the least degree calculated to turn the curren:: of this debate trom the channel in which it is desirable it should run. 1 feei that if there is any question that could be brought un- der the consideration of the House, that it is requisite to deal with in the ca'mest, most dispassionate and judicial manner, it is the great ques- tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It will be, however, necessary, in the somewhat changed attitude of honorable gentlemen opposite, as foreshadowed by the promised resolution of the member for West Durham, that I should as briefly as is possible describe the position that, in my judgment, the two parties in this House occupy in relation to this question. The House will remember, that when this Government was in power, in 1 871, and British Columbia was brought into the Confederation, it was decided that we should grapple with the great question of the con- struction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, by which all the various pro- vinces would be brcught into more rapid and easy communication. When . in a position to 5:ubmit a formal jjroposition to the House, in 1872, by which . it was hoped to accomplish the construction of that work, the Gorernment , submitted a proposal to grant $30,000,000 and 50,000,000 acres of land in > order to cover the expenditure connected with it. At the time that policy ;t was resolved upon, a resolution, in order to meet the a})prehension which exifted in and out of the House, as to the very serious responsibility the Government was about to incur, was proposed and carried, and it became ••■Artlili^lMIki 6 : 3 ! substantially a part of the terms of union with British Columbia, that that work should be constructed, not by the Government, but by private enter- prise, aided by a grant of lands and money to that extent. But even that was limited by the declaration placed before the House, that the progress of that work should not involve an increase in the then rate of taxation. < Mr. Blake — Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper — Now, 1 am a little surprised to find the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake; taking exception to the statement I have made, that it formed a part of the terms of union with British Columbia, because the Government of which that honorable gentleman was a member, at a later date, found it con- venient to fall back upon that resolution, and embodied it in a Minute-of- Council which they offered to British Columbia, and to the Imperial Gov- ernment as well, as a reason for qualifying the engagement that was entered into. I am safe, I think, in saying that there is no man in this House, there is no intelligent man in this country, that would not heartily concur in the accuracy of the statement, that it would be greatly in the interest of Canada if it had been possible to accomplish the construction of that work upon those terms. Honorable gentlemen opposite took exception on many occa- sions to the suJficiency of the means that were thus provided for the con- struction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I think the honorable member for Lambton (Mr. Mackenzie), when the leader of the Government, at a public meeting at Whitby, committed himself to the statement that we might as well have offered $to, as $30,000,000 and 50,000.000 acres of land for the purpose of securing the construction of that work, so strongly did he feel the entire inadequacy of the means proposed. Now, it will not be at all necessary for me to discuss the circumstances under which the Government found itself unable to accomplish the construction of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway upon those terms. W are sufficiently familiar with that view of the question to render that entirely unnecessary. But we went out of office, and the luty and responsibility of dealing with this great ques- tion devolved upon the gentleman, who, during the subsequent five years, led the Government of this country. Now, I think, we must all admit that successive Governments must pay great deference to, and must hold them- selves to a large extent responsible — for carrying out the policy of their predecessors. I am satisfied we all agree in the opinion that it is only under the gravest circumstances that a new administration is in a position to repu- diate, if I may so speak, the engagements in relation to a great public ques- tion, to which their predecessors have committed the country under the authority of Parliament. But I quite admit it was in the power of the hon- orable gentleman who was then called u[)on to form an administration, to say that since, in Parliament, he had opposed the policy of attempting to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway, that he believed this country could not engage in a work of such gigantic magnitude without seriously injuring the" financial position of the country — that, under those circumstances, he must decline to hold himself responsible for the engagement into which his predecessors had entered. The honorable gentleman had that course open to him, because Parliament, having declared that the work should only be constructed provided a com'pany could be found, aided to the f tent before i nmm lat that : enter- en that gress of ind the ption to :rms of ich that it CO!»- .inute-of- rial Gov- } entered ise, there ;ur in the ,f Canada ork upon any occa- the con- e member lent, at a t that we acres of io strongly it will not which the f the Cana- miliar with ;ut we weirt great ques- five years, 1 admit that ; hold them- icy of their 5 only under don to repu- public ques- •y under the r of the hon- nistration, to .ttempting to ountry could )usly injuring imstances, he nto which his t course open hould only be r ■ tent before stated, to accomplish it as a private undertaking, and the effort to obtain the construction cf the work under the terms sanctioned by Parliament hav- ing failed, it was open to him, I say, frankly to state to the House, that he was unable to carry out the policy to which his predecessors had committed the country, '/he honorable gentleman did not adopt that course. Soon after his accession to power he visited his constituents for the purpose of declaring, as Prime Minister, what the policy of his Government was in rela- tion to this great question. W 11, sir, the honorable gentleman, much to the surprise of many of his friends, and greatly to the astonishment of those wit. whom he had fornierly been in controversy upon the question, com- mitted himself in the most unqualified manner to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He said, and I am quoting from the organ ot his party in this city : — "I havj always thought that speedy means of communication aciotw the conti- nent were necossary for settlement, and for the purpose of opening up the district •where we have great riches undeveloped in the l>osora of the earth. Without that communicatioQ their development cannot take place, and emigration cannot be ■expected." < Now, with the great North West in our possession to be ])eopled, and a declaration that the construction of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway was essential to the development of the great resources of Canada, referring, undoubtedly, to the mine- ral resources of British Columbia— a declaration that immigration to this country cctuld not be hoped for, unless that work was undertaken, committed, on the grounds of the ' roadest considerations of public policy, the honorable gentleman, to the construction of that work. But he went much further. He stated, in that address, that it was his inten- tion to proceed with this great work in an entirely different manner from that which his predecessors had propounded, and which Parliament had authorized, and that was as a Government work. He gave, on that occa- sion, the very substantial reason that, if it was constructed as a Government work, the people would receive the profit instead of the contractors. The honorable gentleman, consistent with that declaration, came down to Parlia- ment with a measure for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He has frequently referred to the fact that one of the first clauses of that act provided that it must not increase the existing rate of taxation ; that he had adhered to the policy propounded by the previous Government and sanc- tioned by Parliament : that there must be no increase of taxation connected with the undertaking. But he did not recount that which Parliament had com- mitted itself to and sanctioned, and that was the declaration that it should not be done by the Government, a declaration that the honorable gentleman himself had voted for, and that his friends and supporters had supported, but that it must be done by a private company, aided by a grant of lands and money. That provision was swept away. It is true, however, that he provided in his bill for the prosecution of the work in very much the same manner as that propounded by his predecessors, provided the parties could be found to take it up. I think those v/ho have not recently read that Act will be a . little surprised to learn that he went further than his predecessors in the means which he provided from the public resources for the purpose of 8 prosecuting the W( k. The honorable gentleman covered the whole ground in his bill. He said : — " 1. A railway to be called the ' Canadian Pacific Railway' shall be made from some point near to ard south of Luke i^fioising to some point in British Columbia, on the Pacific Ocean ; both tlie said points to bo determined and the course and line of t!'fl said railway to be approved ol by the Govcrnor-in-Council." Even the sanction of Parliament was not necessary to the adoption of a line, and that line was to extend fr:)m a point on Lake Nipissing to a point in British Columbia, on the Pacific Coast. The honorable gentleman then went on to provide what should be given to the company undertaking it. He prrivided ir action four : — " 4. That a quantity of land, not exceeding twenty thousand acres for each milc' of the "-ection or sub-section contracted for, shall be appropriated in alternate sec- tions cf twenty squai 3 miles each, along the line of the said railway, or at a convenient distance therefrom, each section having a frontage of not less than three miles nor more than six miles on the line of the said railway, and that two-thirds of the quan- tity of land so appropriated shall be sold by the (xovernment at such prices as may be from time to time agreed upon betwe( n the Governor-in-Cour ;il and the con- tractors, and tiie proceeds thereof accounted for and ^^aid half-yearly to the contractors, free from any charge of administration or jnanagement ; the remaining third to be conveyed to the contractors. The said lands to be of fair average quality, and not to include any land already granted or occnpied under any patent, license of occupa- tion or pre-emption right ; and when a sufficient quantity cannot be found in the Immediate vicinity of the railway, then the same quantity, or as much as may bo required to complete such quantity, shall be appropriated .\t such other places a» may be determined uy the Governor-in-Council.'' New, I call the attention of the honorable member for North Norfolk to his act to which I think he \vds kind enough to give his hearty support when it was submitted to Parliament. I call his attention to this as indi- cating that the honorable gentleman at that time had not the same a bhx)r- rence of a large section of bnd along the line on the Pacific Railway b?ing in the hands of contractors. The late Government went further than the previous Government had gone, because while we propo.sed to give 50,000,- coo acres of land and $30,000,000, we never ])roposed to assuwie the cost and responsibility of administering and selling two-thirds of the land and relie\ !ng the contractors from that charge. So here is Parliament authorizing honorable gentlemen to give 50,000,000 acres and $30,000,000 in money and providing for the expenditure necessary to administer and sell two-thir^ls of the land owned, that was the property of the contractors. Then there was the question of the surveys ; while under our contract, the company with whom we made the contrav:t for the work were obliged to cover all cost incurred in connection with work up to that time, it is provided : — " That the cost of surveys, and of locating the line of the several sections and sub-fections of the said railway shall be part of the subsidy or consideration allowed to the contiactors, cr not, as may be determined by the Governor-in-Council, and agreed upon in the contract entered into with the contractors." So the Government not only proposed to give all the land we pro- posed to give, but to bear the expense of the administration of two-thirds of the land, and to relieve the contractors of the cost of any surveys or location of any portion of this road. The honor- fLi round le from nJ line tion of ig to a tleman rtaking ,ch mile' ate sec- wenient liles nor le quan- as may the con- itractors, ird to be id not to occupa- id in the may be places a» Norfolk support ; as indi- le abhjor- ay b?ing than the 50,000,- the cost land and ithorizing n moneys wo-thirds lien there company cover all d:— ctions anci on allowed :)iincil, aiid 1 we pro- ;ration of e cost of le honor- able gentleman did not stop here. Having changed the position of Parliament altogether, in relation to the great obligation of con- structing the Canadian Pacific Railway, by providing that the Govern- ment themselves snould either have the power to give the 'ontract to th i company who would construct the road on the conditions contained in tie measure, or take up that work, rs a Government work, and carry it to com- pletion, the honorable gentleman did not stop there. Great as had been the fears he had exhibited with reference to the enormous burden we were placing on the shoulders of the people, he sought to make the Government directly responsible for the expenditure of all this money in the construction of the line from Lake Nipissing to the shores of the Pacific. But the honor- able gentleman, over and above, the expenditure we proposed, committed the country to a vast extension of the liability of the previous Government. The previous Government assumed that if they brought the Pacific Railway to Nipissing, it we M be a sufficient inducement for the lines in Ontario and Quebec, runni g easterly to Quebec, and southerly to Toronto, to make a connection at that point. At the same time, my honorable predecessor submitted to Parliament a neasure providing for the construction of the Georgian Bay Branch, and to give a subsidy to the Canada Central Railway of $i,440jOoc. Although the Georgian Bay Branch was through a terra incoguiia, the line unsurveyed, and eminent engineers maintained it to be impracticable, without ..ny survey or any location, the hono'^able gentle- man pled,T;ed himself as the leader of the Government, and he committed, the Government and the country to the construction of the line, from the terminus of the Canada Central, east of Lake Nipissing, to the mouth of French River, at an expense moderately put at $2,560,000. That makes four million dollars of money which he proposed to expend outside of, and over and abcvje, the liability for the Canadian Pacific Raihvay before reaching the eastern terminus, where it had been fixed by Par- liament, on the south and east of Lake Nipissing. He may say, "but this is all subject to the limitation that is provided for in ^his bill, with reference to not increasing the then rate of taxation." Unfortunately for him, and unfortunately for the honorable gentleman who sits behind hirn^ and who now seems — I will no: say ready to repudiate the policy of hi& own leader — but to take a prominent part in a proposal that, I fear, will be regarded in the light of a repudiation ^)y them of their obligations, and which will have the effect of sweeping from under their feet any standing ground, — the honorable the then Minister of Finance submitted to J'arliament a decL..ation to the effect that in order to meet the expendi- ture he would have to ask Parliament to im])ose an additional taxation of $3,000,000 ; and then and there the honorable gentleman did impose that additional taxation. When the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) made his famous speech in Ontario, at a subsequent date, he said that British Columbia had nothing to complain of, as Parliament had not only pledged itself to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, but had provided $3,000,000, had levied $3,000,000 addi:ional taxation to meet their obligations, and notably for the Canadian Pacific Raihvay. When the honorable gentleman imposed that additional taxation, this bill was at the same time placed upon the Statute Book, saying that the under- taking should not involve an increase in the existing rate of taxation. 'I'he 10 honorable gentleman, therefore, stands in this position : either he must give up thatclar-:e as not having any binding obligation or effect, cr stand before Parliament and the country in the position of having violated the law in the expenditure of every dollar spent from the first hour that he began to • expend any money on the Pacific Railway, because there is clear and unde- niable evidence that the rate of taxation was then increased. Every single dollar of the $11,000,000 spent in the construction of the railway, so far, had been spent by the honorable gentleman in the teeth of the Statute, and also the balance of the $28,000,000 of money required to complete the expenditure he had begun — for without that completion all the $11,000,006 would be wasted — had been expended contrary to the declaration of that act. The honorable gentleman, when in opposition, had exhibited such a spirit of antagonism as honorable gentlemen opposite are, I am afraid, inclined to exhibit to the policy proposed on this side of the House. Mr. Blake — Which gentleman ? Sir Charles ^'upper — When I have the pleasure to look in the face at this moment of the hon. gentleman, and hold this friendly discussion on so very important a question, I am reminded that when he was before in Opposition, and when we then proposed a scheme for constructing the Pacific Railway, which we felt quite possible, and which we knew to be in the interest of the country to complete as quickly as possible, he and his colleagues decried that proposal or the advisability of going on with the work ; but when brought into power upon this side of the House, they did not shrink back ; they found that the dismal vista that they had seen before, had vanished; and the hon. gentleman went to the extent of adding $4,000,000 to the amount we proposed for the construction of the Pacific Railway at the eastern end of the line. But what did he do on the other end of the line ? He went into a deliberate negotiation with.British Colum- bia and the Imperial Government, and for fear that the hon. gentlemen may forget these little inconsistencies, I will ask the indulgence of the House while I refer to one of the most important State papers, one of the most important documents that forms a portion of the archives of Canada, I mean the treaty made between the Government of Canada and British Columbia, and the Imperial Government. Although I would like to condense the passage I am going to read, I am afraid I shall have to read it at length. What I am going to read now will be found at page 5 1 1 of the Hansard of 1875. On that page will be found a verbatim statement of the treaty, showmg the obligations imposed by the then First Minister now sitting on the other side of the House. Lord Carnarvon said : — " Adhering then to the same order in which, on the 16th August, I stated the principle points on which it appeared to me that a better undetHtanding should be ^lefined, I now proceed to announce the conclusions at v/hich I liavo arrived. They are : — 1. That the railway from Eti(iiiimauU to Nanaimo shall be commenced tw soon as possible, and completed with all practicablo despatch. 2. That the surveys on the mainland shall be pushed on with the utmost vigor. On this point, after considering the representations of your Ministers, I feel that I have no alternative but to rely, as I do most fully and readily, r.pon theii asAuranoes that no legitimate effort or expense will be spared, first to determine the best route for the line, and secondly to proceed with the details of the engineering work. It si \z Ik ai _^ te I b- vi' •fel- i 11 would be distasteful to in_, if indeed, it were not impossible to prescribe strictly any minimum of time or expenditure with regard to work of so uncertain a nature ; but, happily, it is equally impossible for me to doubt that your Qovernment will loyally do its best in every way to accelerate the completion of a duty left freely to its sense of honor and justice. 3. That the wagson road and telegraph line shall l>c immediately constructed. There seems here to be some difference of opinion as to the special value to the province of the undertaking to complete these two works ; but after considering what has been said, I am of opinion that they should both be proceeded with at once, as indeed is Huggested by your Ministers. 4. That $2,000,000 a year, and not $1,500,000, shall be the minimum expendi- ture on railway works within the Province from the date at which the surveys are sufficiently completed to enable that amount to be expended on construcUon. In naming this amount I understand, that, it being alike the interest and the wish of the Dominion Government to urge on with all speed the completion of the works now to be undertaken, the annual expenditure will be as much in excess of the minimum of $2,000,000 as in any year may be found practicable. 5. Lastly, that on or before the 31st Decemlier, 1890, the railway shall be com- pleted and open for traftc on the Pacific seaboard to a point at the western end of Lake Superior, at which it will fall into connection with existing lines ot railway through a portion of the United States, end also "with the navigation on Canadian waters." This is Lord Carnarvon's decision or the conclusions at which he had arrived as a mediator bicween British Columbia and the First Minister of that day. It will be seen that the late Government here pledged themselves to build the line from Esquimault to Nanaimo without delay. What did that mean, in the first place ? I am quite certain that my hon. predecessor will not question the calculation I have made when I say that at the very lowe.st estimate it would cost $4,000,000. It is simply adding $4,000,000 upon the western end of the Canadian Pacific Railway to the $4,000,000 he had already added to the eastern end. But that is by far the least grave portion of this matter. However much the hon. gentleman disregarded in his o' /n action the clause of the bill which provided that the work should not [ roceed so as to involve an increase in the taxation of the country, by thi.s negotiation and engagement with Lord Carnarvon, he left himself en- tirely unprotected. I should like to ask what it would cost to construct a waggon road for 400 miles through the Rocky Mountains. Is not that an enormous addition to the contract to construct as rapidly as possible the Canadian Pacific Railway? I trust that the hon. member for West Dur- ham will read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest these statements, which received the ready and hearty concurrence anc^ endorsement of the late Minister of Public Works. 1 am aware that the hon. member for West Durham was a little restive under those terms. At any rate, sitting upon this side of the House, he exhibited a little of tliat restivei.ess which character- izes him when he is not in the Cabinet. The hon. member for West Dur- ham put a question on the notice paper on this subject, and what was ^he answer of the hon. First Minister of that day ? Feeling strong in the in- tegrity of his position, and in the consciousness that he was grappling with the constriction of a great national work, he said: — "With respect to the question raised by my hon. friend, the member for South Bruce, I may say I have notlu'ng to ask from Parliament. W^e have no authorit)- to obtain, but have merely to communicate this decision and rest upon the House WMIg»V-w»i .H Wp il- 12 supporting us in accepting the terms that have been made through the in- tervention or mediation of Lord Carnarvon, and that support, I do not doubt, will be cheerfully accorded." Have we not a right to ask those gen- tlemen who were ready to accord support to the leader of the late Govern- ment, when he proposed, not only to pledge this country to build the Cana- dian Pacific Railway from end to end, but to add $3,ooo.ooo to any expen- diture which had ever been proposed by his predecessors, and add the cost of the waggon road and of the administration of two-thirds of the land these people were to receive, to consider fairly our position? That honorable gentleman was prei)ared to rely on the gentlemen sustaining him for their assured support, because he believed he was acting in the interest of the ■country. Have we not a right with our much more modest proposition — with the burden honorable gentlemen opposite proposed to place on this country, rendered so much lighter by us — to ask for some of that assured support which the member for Lambton so confidently relied upon when standing where I now have the honor to stand ? The member for West Durham was not prepared to gv) so far as this proposition of the late Gov- ernment. It is but just to him' to say that he gave expression to his dis- sent in perhajis the most marked manner that an independent member could do so when he refused his vote for the construction of the Esqui- mault and Nanaimo Railway. But though the faith and honor of the Gov- ernment and the country had been irrevocably pledged to this undertaking, when it was removed out of the way by the other branch of Parliament, the honorable gentleman himself assumed the responsibility of every word and act of that Government by accejiting a place in it. He did more. He not only entered the Cabinet, committed and bound as it was to this policy, beyond recall, and without qualification as to the resources of the country, without raising the question as to whether the railway should be completed by 1890, from end to end, thus giving practical evidence of his being in accord with its views, but showed he was prepared to take out of the coffers of Canada $750,000 to compensate British Columbia for having generously relinquished the immediate expenditure of the $4,000,000 on the Nanaimo and Esquimault Railway. Under those circumstances, the last source from which this Government might have anticipated obstruction was from gentlemen opposite in adopting the present policy. The late Government committed itself to the construction of this great work regardless of the cost. At the end of five years the former Government came back to power. What did we find had been accomplished in the meantime ? Honorable gentlemen may be surprised to learn that one of our first duties was to lay the rails upon the Pembina Branch Railway, the contract for which was given out, among the first acts of the late Government. They also early undertook the construction of the railway from Fort William to Shebandowan, and to develop the jjolicy known as the use of the water stretches. There was, besides, to be a road in the west, from the Lake of the Woods to Winnipeg. To the credit of the inember for Lambton, he is sometimes open to argu- ment. After two or three years' discussion in this House we were enabled finally •;o convince him of the folly of his course — that every dollar he ex- l)ended on the road lo Shebandowan on the east, and on the road beyond the Lake of the Woods in the west, would be wasted, while there was the Duluth Railway within a comparatively short distance to carry all the or; in he .anc let, to wit for unc bin; foil anc con con son froi visi . ! the in- do not )se gen- jovern- s Cana- expen- the cost id these " )norable "or their t of the isition — on this assured )n when or West ite Gov- his dis- member ; Esqui- the Oov- ertaking, ment, the iry word Dre. He lis pohcy, country, completed being in :he coffers ;enerously Nanaimo urce from ,vas from. )vernment if the cost, sr. What gentlemen y the rails given out, lertook the an, and to rhere was, Winnipeg.. n to allu- re enabled. )llar he ex.- lad beyond re was the rry all the passengers and traffic westward, and prevent either one or the otiier, ever going by the mixed rail and water-stretches route, the amphibious line, after it was constructed. I will credit him with practically admitting, at least, wtha^ he was wrong and we were right. Mr. Mackenzie — No. Sir Charles Tupper — I know he is unwilling to admit it, but history will establish the truth of my statements. I cannot absolve the honorable gentleman for the folly of having undertaken the construction of the through line by this route, and letting two contracts, one running to English River on the east, and the other to Rat Portage on the west, without previous surveys, without the slightest knowledge of those sections or what the road would cost, or whether he could connect the two ends at all. It can be proved diose ends had never been connected by surveys, and that there was no means of knowing whedier, at any reasonable cost, the road could be completed. The result has been an enormous expenditure, largely due to the j)recipitate commencement of the work, and without sufficient informa- tion as to the character of the country. On attaining office we found a large amount had been expended on those two sections of 227 miles; one running east from Red River 114 miles, and the other 113 miles, running west from Lake Superior. We found that the money thus expended might as well be thrown into Lake Superior, and was utterly useless for any purpose of value, there being a gap of 185 miles between those sections. The honorable gentleman had become convinced of the useleseness of this expenditure, without the com- pletion of the intervening section ; and shortly previous to the general elec- tions he advertised for contracts for the road over those 185 miles. 1 am not going to find any fault with diat step. I gave him credit for it before, but must withdraw it now, as he stated the other night that he had not at all decided to construct those 185 miles — had not decided whether he would allow the enormous expenditure to lie dead while he paid intere.st on it, without accomplishing anything by it. I can readily understand why the hon- orable gentleman did not let the contracts before the election. He had stated in and out of the House, as a ground of his claim to public confidence, that he was building the Canadian Pacific Railway at a cost of $24,500 a mile, [sand he had learned that if the contracts for the intervening 185 miles were let, it would become apparent he had made an enormous miscalculation as rto the cost of the road, the contracts for jjortions of which he had given out without any surveys or information to warrant tha,t action ; so the ground for his appeal for the public confidence in this matter would be swept from under his feet. On t' e Georgian Bi^y Branch, Canada Central, the Pem- bina Branch, and the line between Thunder Bay and the Red River, we found, when we came into power, that over $11, 000, 000 had been spent; and to make that outlay of any practical value, would involve the proper completion of those works, and I stated a year ago the expenditure involved could not be estimated at less than $28,000,000. I am now able to take something like a million off that estimate, as by pursuing a different policy from that of the late Government, in letting the contracts and in their super- vision after being let, we expect to eflect a great reduction in the cost un- '.dertaken. Before I had been a week in the office which tlie member for 14 Lambton vacated, I called on Mr. Marcus Smith for a statement of the work done upon those 228 miles, an estimate upon which the contracts had been framed, and a statement of how much had been paid, and how much was required to complete the work. I was astounded to discover that the additional expense had to be counted, I may say, by millions. I called the attention of Mr. Fleming to the same matter as soon as he returned from Englan'l. Mr. Fleming said that, so far as Section 25 was concerned, it could be ; the difference could be accounted for, as the character of the work had been changed, but with respect to the other portions that there had been no location surveys — no suffi- ciently accurate estimates made — no knowledge of details acquired when those contracts were let to enable a close estimate to ' be formed. He had no means of accounting for this great disproportion between what they supposed the cost of the work would be, and what it was now evident it would cost. Mr. Fleming sent for the engineers who liad been in charge of the works, both east and west, and they were unable to give a satisfactory account of so much money having been spent, and in consequence a careful remeasurenient has been made to ascertain where the discrepancy was. With regard to .Section 15, Mr. Smith and Mr. Flem- ing said that we could account for the great disproportion between the cost and the estimate because the plan had been changed. The contract was originally invited for that section of the road, but the amount asked by the tenderers was so enormous that the moment the then First Minister saw them he discover^-d it would not do to let the contract on those figures, or he would have to add something like fifty per cent, to the cost which he had stated he was building the Pacific Railway at per mile. The contract was not let. It was subsequently let upon a system of trestle-work for em- bankments, and after the work had proceeded in that way for a length of time, a report was made by the engineer in charge that the wood in that country was of a very inferior description, and thaf so soon as the road was completed it would probably be either all burnt up, and if not burned, the wood was of such an inferior quality that we should have to commence re- building it at an early day, and he therefore advised that embankments should be substituted for trestle-work That report was referred to Mr.. Fleming, who was here on a brief visit from England. He entirely con- curred in the proposition that the work should be changed from trestle-work to embankments, and he discussed that matter with the then Minister of Public Works, who also concurred in the propriety of the change, of v/hich he still approves. The honorable gentleman took that report to the Council, where it remained. Mr. Mackenzie — The honorable gentleman is a little overstating the fact. I agreed that the road would be much better built that way than the former way, but I did not concur in the wisdom of making the change just then. Sir Charles Tupper — The honorable gentleman ought to have dor.e one thing or the other. The Chief Engineer having gone the next day to England after discussing the matter with the honorable gentleman, and having left his report in favor of the change, with the assurance of that honorable gendeman that he agreed with it, he ought to have either obtained, the decision of the Council for the proposition or against it, or, at all events,. 16 it of the •acts had Dw much discover milHons. as soon iction 25 r, as the : to the no suffi- acquired mate to ' roportion lat it was who had anable to t, and in dn where At. Flem- 1 the cost itract was ed by the ister saw igures, or which he ; contract rk for em- length of id in that road was- .n-ned, the imence re- )ankments ed to Mr.. tirely con- estle-work [inister of :, of v/hich le Council, ng the fact, the former 1st then. Iiave dor.e lext day to eman, and ice of that er obtained, t all events,. should have tjiken care to know that the change was not made under the assumption that that which the Chief Engineer had recommended, and which m-it with the approval of the Hon. the Minister of Public Works Mr. Mackenzie — No. Sir Charles Tupper — Was not to be pursued. That was the position ill which I found the work. Notwithstanding the increased cost, I have no hesitation in saying that the change was a wise one ; and I recommended it to the present Government especially when I found that the contract had been carried on by the Engineer under the impression that the change had been adopted, and that the contractor had expended over $100,000 for plant that would not have been required if tl^ere had been no intention of a change. We were careful, under these circumstances, that no more con- tracts should be let in the loose, irregular, and improper manner prevailing up to that time. We required a full statement of all the work that was required on the sections of the railway, before we would commit ourselves to their construction, and I postponed action twice upon the advertisement which the honorable member for Lambton had himself put into the papers for the 185 miles, because the Department was not ready with the careful calculations based upon surveys and examinations and cross-sections which had been prepared to enable us to know exactly what the amount of the work would be. I am happy to say that we have changed the mode of letting the contracts, instead of basing them on mere guess work, we based them on maximum quantities that cannot be exceeded ; the contracts require the amount of work should be done, if required, but that it may be reduced to- any extent. I am happy to be able to tell the honorable gentleman that I have already reduced the distance, or rather that Mr. Caddy, the engineer in charge of section 41, has been enabled, since that contract was let, to^ reduce the distance on forty-seven miles of it by three and three-fourths miles, a saving to the country of $319,000 by that reduction, and by lessen- ing the amount of work to be done on that forty-seven miles. The same process is going on on section 42, and these two contracts will be completed within the time stated in the contract — a great novelty — the honorable gen- tleman will admit, considering the inordinate time he has taken in similar cases. Under that system we shall not only be enabled to construct these works within the time stated in the contract, but by a reduction of the cost by over half a million dollars. I give this to the honorable gentlemen as an evidence of the value of having a careful examination of the wQrk before the contracts are let, instead of rushing into it blindly. That was our first duty, and finding that this expenditure had been made, we had no alternative but to go forward and carry it out. Moreover, we had the responsibility thrown upon us of dealing with th2 question of the construction of the railway as a whole ; we did not find it left a legacy to us, as the honorable gentleman found it left to him. It was open to him, in the position in which we left the question, as I have already stated, to say he was not prepared to adopt the policy of the con- struction of the railway, at all events in the manner that was indicated. He adopted a different course ; he not only provided for the construction of the work directly by the Government, but he entered into a binding treaty and obligation with Lord Carnarvon, on behalf of the Imperial ■MM riMMa 16 i •r I I i I i 1 ■3 :4 Government and British Columbia, that this work should be completed by 1890 from 'Jie shords of Lake Superior to the Pacific Ocean. That was the legacy we inherited from the honorable gentleman ; and carrying out the })ledge he had made to Lord Carnarvon, he caused these further surveys to l)e made with a view to the location of the line, and having satisfied him- self that the best line that could be adopted was the line to Burrard Inlet, the honorable gentleman proceeded to put an advertisement in the papers calling for tenders for the construction of 125 miles, from Kamloops to Yale. I heard with amazement the other night a statement from the honor- able gentleman that he had not decided to do that work, that he had not fully made up his mind to do it I am perfectly aware that it is legitimate for a Government going to the country under the great discouragement which the honorable gentleman was compelled to go to the country — I am quite aware that it is legitimate for them to present a programme as attrac- tive as they can for the consideration of the country. But I am astonished that the honorable the then First'Minister of the Crown should deliberately, in his own department, call for tenders involving the expenditure of large sums of money by intending contractors, for the construction of 125 miles of railway through the canyons of the Fraser, a most difiicult and inaccessible locality, and afterwards state to this House that he did it deliberately, on the eve of an election, without the intention of carrying it on to comple- tion. The honorable gentleman stated that he was upholding the honor and integrity of Canada ; that this work should be carried on to completiqn IS vigorously as possible, and that he had pledged himself to Lord Carnarvon that the surveys should be prosecuted as rapidly as possible, and that as soon as they were completed the road should be located, and. not less than two millions per annum should be expended. With that pledge he asks for tenders for 125 miles of railway. That was the honorable gentleman's obligation, from which there was no escape, and there was the additional pledge to British Columbia that that work was to be immediately under- taken. I ask the honorable gentleman to tell this house, if he had not finally made up his mind to proceed with the construction of the railway from Yale to Kamloops, why he made the contract involving the payment of $32,400 to a contractor to carry rails from Victoria to Yale? Does the honorable gentleman mean to say that, not content with holding out to the people of British Columbia that he was going to build the railway, he was absolutely going to take out of the public cofiers $32,400 to remove these rails from Victoria to Yale, without having satisfied himself that he ever intended to strike a blow ? That is a proposition, I am satisfied, the honor- able gentleman, on reflection, will see is utterly untenable, and he will find himself in a position that no possible argument on his part could justify. Well, under these circumstances, the Government found themselves brought face to face with the great question of the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway forced upon them. The course which had been pursued by the late Government and by the late Finance Minister, was that of holding up to the country the enormous and gigantic obligation that this work would involve, and the honorable gentleman felt it his duty to give the contractors all over the world, who might be invited to con- struct this line upon favorable terms, to understand that it was a work involving enormous expenditure, and that it would be disastrous to any- • .t\'f 17 ileted by t was the r out tlie Lirveys to ifted him- ird Inlet, le papers iiloops to he honor- e had not legitimate iragement try — I am as attrac- istonished ;liberately, •e of large 125 miles laccessible lerately, on to comple- the honor completiqn Carnarvon md that as ot less than dge he asks Tentleman's ; additional itely under- he had not the railway ;he payment ? Does the ig out to the [way, he was emove these that he ever d, the honor- l he will find ;ould justify. , themselves istruction of se which had nee Minister, itic obligation ,t it his duty ivited to con- t was a work strous to any- contractor to touch it. We were under the necessity of dealing with this difficulty as a commercial undertaking, when it was in an entirely different position from that which it occupied when we were deprived of power. When we found ourselves brought face to face with this very serious ques- tion, what did we do ? We reverted back as far as possible under the changed circumstances to our former ]:)olicy. Our policy was this : That the lands of the Northwest ought to build the Canadian Pacific Railway. That was the principal plank in our platform. The late First Minister, in his address at Sarnia, covered the whole ground when he said that it was impossible ever to draw emigration into that great country and settle it without the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway. We held that opinion, and we felt that, inasmuch as that great fertile North West must remain a barren waste until the railway was constructed, and that inasmuch as those lands were the most fair and fer<"e, and the richest to be found on the face of the globe, and that they must remain useless to Canada unless the railway was constructed, we felt warranted in adopting the policy which we have adopted. But, saying that this great work ought to be and should be constructed by utilizing those lands to which the road itself is going 10 give such enormously increased value, we came down with that policy, and we supposed that these honorable gentlemen opposite, having committed the Government, having pledged the faith of Canada, as they pledged it in relation to this question, that they would have been the first men in this House to congratulate us upon the policy we had propounded and give us their most hearty support, but we discovered that we were alto- gether mistaken. What was the language of the honorable leader ot the Opposition last winter when ve propounded that policy ? He said the land was good for nothing. Mr. Mackenzie — I did not say so. Sir Charles Ti;pper — The whole success of our scheme depended upon being able to convince the world that these lands were fertile and of enor- mous value ; that they would largely repay any person who undertook their settlement, that it was the most inviting field for emigrants that was to be found in the world. But how did the honorable gentleman meet us ? He met us first with the declaration that it is a bad policy to lock up the land. Mr. Mackenzie — He.'^r, hear. Sir Charles Tupper — Hear, hear, he says? Yet I ask nim what he said to the people of Sarnia when he told them that without the Canadian Pacific Railway these lands were valueless. I ask him how he reconciles that statement with the statement that it is a bad policy to utilize these lands for the purpose of constructing the railway through them ? What more did the honorable gentleman say when he knew that the whole success of our policy rested upon our success in convincing the world of the great value of these lands and the safety of investing money in their purchase, in order to give us the means of constructing this railway without imposing an enormous burden upon the people of the country ? The honorable gentle- man took upon himself the responsibility of endeavoring to defeat the suc- cess of this policy. The honorable gentleman told the people of England from the floor of this House that we could not give our lands away in Canada. Mr. Mackenzie — I did not. 9 is I f ■ ■ •«/ Sir Charles Tupper — I ask the honorable gentleman to read his speech. Turn up the Hansard and the honorable gentleman will see that when we talked of building the Canadian Pacific Railway, with these lands, and selling them to get the money he said we could not get people lO settle on the lands in Canada when we gave them away. . , ^ ,,,,, .,,, . . , ,,,.,, ,, An honorable gentleman — Texas. ' "■ ' '- .. r Sir Charles Tupper — I am not going to say anything about Texas, as the honorable gentleman has been pressed sufficiently on that i^oint ; for he was on the horns of a dilemma, and ready to fly to Texas or anywhere else to escape from the difficulty. The honorable gentleman followed us to England. After the House had adopted the policy that gave us the authority to dispose of 100,000,000 acres of land for the purpose of constructing this great work, and had authorized the mission to England for the purpose of endeavoring to enlist capitalists abroad, and the Government of England to aid in the prosecution of this work, the honorable gentleman not only denounced the policy of using the lands, he not only declared that they were worthless ji, Mr. Mackenzie — I said nothing of the kind. Sir Charles Tupper — He said we could not settle them when we gave them away. fy Mr. Mackenzie — I said nothing of the kind. , ; M.:'rM::- • .V* n .'•/*!, v. Sir Charles Tupper — If the honorable gentleman will read his speech in the Hansard, he will find it there \ if not, I will acknowledge I misappre- hended what he said. The honorable gentleman followed us to England, he followed that mission which this Government sent to England for the i)urpose of obtaining aid in the construction of this work. Immediately upon our arrival in England, a long article appeared in one of the leading journals, declaring that there was a reaction in this country, that the Government had lost their popularity ; and so the honorable gentleman followed us step by step, and used every argument that could be used in order to defeat and render abortive the mission in which we were engaged. The passage I was referring to in the honorable gendeman's speech of last year has been kindly turned up for me. I will read from the speech of the honorable gentleman, on page 1,905 of the Hansard : — " If the honorable gentleman (Sir Charles Tupper) is proceeding on the hypo- thesis that in Canada alone ib there any land available, he will iind himself greatly mistaken. We have found it very difficult indeed in Canada to promote settlement, even where the land was given away by the Government. It is still more difficult to send settlers to the far-off western country, where they have the initial difficultijes of a new country to contend with, not less in amount, though different in kind, than the settlers of our own wooded districts." ^ ,, , , , Mr. Mackenzie — Where is the place I said the land was worth nothing? Sir Charles Tupper — I said the honorable gentleman undervalued the character of our lands. ,\iL::\tt^myi lo .■ni*:.ii! no i^u ij^iu {>iiiMb-t. Mr. Mackenzie — I have taken down the honorable gentleman's words; he stated I said the lands were good for nothing. Read the passage. Sir Charles Tupper — I will tell him where I find it; I find it in the statement that you cannot promote settlement where you give the lands away. If that does not sustain my assertion, then I know nothing about the meaning of the English language. But not content with saying that we I I I 19 read his see that ,^se lands, ; lO settle Texas, as nt ; for he 'here else ed us to authority icting this Lirpose of ngland to not only they were n we gave '., ',".>;.{ ■,:,, liis speech misappre- igland, he le purpose upon our journals, iment had s step by efeat and age 1 was len kindly entleman, the hypo- iclf greatly settlement, re difficult difficulties kiud, thau nothing ? /^alued the I's words ; it in the the lands ing about g that we M could not promote settlement where the lands were given away, that in the Northwest the difficulties are greater than in any other part of Canada, the honorable gentleman went on with this lugubrious account of our country : — "They have a lonj; winter, absence of lumber and building materialH, and diffi- culties of tiansportatioii Wo niunt, tlierefoie, make up our mindH, if we are to settle that couutry, that it will be done only ut the expenditure (jf a large amount of money to aid settlers in going in, and in giving them laud free after they get in. That is my conviction.' You not only cannot get them to go and settle the lands when you give them away, but if you do, you have to pay them for doing •\ If we did that, where was the $100,000,000 to come from, on which we were asking the House to sustain us in the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway ? Suppose we had failed under these circumstances, would it have been very surprising? As has been already stated by the First Minister, the communications with the Imperial Government were confidential, but I may say this, that after the most friendly and frank discussion of the subject with the Imperial Government, and especially with the Colonial Minister, concerning the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway — we found, and for reasons I think the honorable gentlemen opposite will quite appreciate, the time was not the most propitious for the purpose of pressing them for a definite answer — we came away with the impression that at no distant day we would be in a position to obtain from the Imperial Government the most favorable consideration of our proposals. That this is a question in which Lord Beaconfield's Government felt the greatest interest we can have no possible reason to doubt. If the honorable gentleman opposite was about making an appeal to the country, he would not like to be handicapped any more heavily than was absolutely necessary for the time being ; but there is another reason why we did not think it necessary to press very strongly the Imperial Government in relation to that matter. It is this, after the discussion not only with the members of ^he Imperial Cabinet, and with the Colonial Minister — after discussion with the first minds among the Opposi- tion to rhe present Government in England — after having discussed this question exhaustively with the first capitalists in P^ngland, we found we were in a position, without any fear or doubt, to go steadily forward in the prosecution of this work — knowing that the funds required could be obtained on most favorable terms by my honorable friend the Minister of Finance, and would be forthcoming as fast as he would require them, in- dependently of any guarantee. I may still add that our mission was not altogether fruitless from another point of view. If we were to go on with the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, it was not desirable that we should lose the opportunity of obtaining at a reduced rate a quantity of steel rails for that railway, and I am able to tell the honorable gentleman that we were more fortunate than himself— we had the good fortune to be there just at the time when iron and freights had fallen to their lowest point, and we were successful in making a purchase of 50,000 tons of steel rails at a million and a half dollars less than the honorable gentleman paid for them, and at a million and a half less than what they could be purchased for since. Mr. Anglin — Why did you not purchase more ? -S Sir Charles Tupper — I am afraid that honorable gentlemen are very hard to satisfy. All I can say is that if we had not been on the spot, and » the negotiations liad not been managed as^they were, we would not have heen able to have purchased a ([uarter of that (juantity at the price. It was the- last purchase made at that price, because when it was known that tiiere was a contract of 50,000 tors of steel rails on the market, tht; price went up at a bound. I am afraid it will be a very long time before we, or our succes- sors, will meet with the same good fortune in relation to this matter. I may say to some honorable gentlemen, who seem to think that owing to the defeat of the Heaconsfield Administration all hoi)e of this Government ob- taining anything from England is gone, that we have no reason to distrust a Liberal Administration any more than a Conservative Administration, and I would ask any person who knows anything of the political principles pro- pounded by gentlemen on this side of the House, whether there is any Liberal [arty in England, or any man likely to be in a Liberal Cabinet in England — under Mr. Gladstone, Lord Granville, or Lord Hartington — who is more advanced in Liberal principles than the gentlemen who sit on this side of the House. There has, no doubt, been a great change of parties in England, and if the Conservative party have lost power there, it has been the means of bringing into power an Administration who are no more com- mitted to Liberal principles and a Liberal policy than the gentlemen who sit on this side of the House. Mr. Rymal — I suppose you will hardly rejoice at the change. Sir Charles Tupper — I may tell the honorable gentleman who inter- posed, that I am not dismayed at the change. 1 believe the interests of Canada are just as safe in the hands of Lord Cardwell, as Colonial xMinister, as they were in the hands of Sir Michael Hicks-Beach. Who was Mr. Cardwell ? He was the man who took up and went heart and soul into the great question of the Confederation of British North America. He dis- charged that duty in the most able and energetic manner, and his successors had merely to carry out what had really been accomplished by the Liberal A'^'Tiinistration. The Prime Minister of this Government, when in England, had a highly satisfactory conversation with the gentleman who is not un'ikely to hold the seals of the Colonial Office, Mr. Foster. That gentleman, the other day, in his speech delivered at the Colonial Institute, said :— " His friend, Sir John Mncdonald, came over to this country not long ago to get A guarantee for tlie Pacific Railroad, and he (Mr. Forster) was not at all sure that it would not be advisable if the Mother Country were to be very liberal in these mat- ters." It will be seen, therefore, that notwithstanding the fall of the Beaconsfield Administration, there is every prospect of the Government of Canada being sustained and ' upheld in this great national enterprise. We have here evidence that in the great country to .which we owe a loyal allegiance, there is in both political parties a keen appreciation of the importance of our obtaining the great national highway now under consideration. I ventured last year to draw attention to the belief that the Imperial Government would [cg] that in the opening up of the great Canadian North- West to the settlement of inhabitants of the Mother country, a policy would be propounded that would meet with the approval of Imperial statesmen. That idea was laughed to scorn by the honorable gentlemen opposite. It was to them a matter of derision, but subsequently Lord Beaconsfield came out in an elaborate eulogium on the RB e been k-as the- i;re was I up at succes- l may to the ^nt ob- strust a )n, and ks pro- is any binet in n — wl;o on this arties in as l-een )re com- nen who 10 inter- erests of Minister, was Mr. into the He dis- 81 I V /! ».(.!. uccessors e Liberal England, it unlikely :mar., the ago to get iuto that it theae mat- aconsfield )f Canada •ise. We ^e owe a preciation iway now ention to ipening up ints of the it with the orn by the rision, but ium on the great national resources of British North America, and he declared to the people of England the vital importance it was to the em])ire that her sons who were obliged to expatriate themselves for tlie purpose pf bettering their condition could seek a home in the fertile lands of British North America, under the same flag beneath which they had formerly lived, I must now turn the attention of the House for a few moments to the authority that was given to the Government at the last session of Parlia- ment in relation to this great work, and the duty that was imposed on us. I think I will convince the House (and the honorable member for West Durham — 1 do not even despair of convincing him) that during the re- cess of Parliament the Government ^verc engaged in discharging the duty confided in them by Parliament, and which they directed them to carry out. The first resolution reads as follows : — " 1. Itesolvod, Tlint cngapcmonlH have been entered into w.ih British Cohim- liiB, as a condition of union witli Canada, that a lino of railway to connect the Atlantic with the rncific shall \eyond, and across it the dark Cascade range ; a stream, full of trout, meandering through the meadow.' Anotlier farm of " 100 acres, every part cultivated, drained, and laid ott" into largo parks of 30 to 40 acres each ; the steading in the form of a square ; a fine mansion house.' Another of ' 800 acres, 200 cultivated, fine black soil, all fit for the plough, drained by a stream which skirts it.' Again, '600 acre grass dairy farm ; cows, Dnriiam breed ; farmer cures butter.' Tlie next, ' 300 acres, the stock and crop owned l)y tlie blacksmith. Good public .seho<,'l ; neat Presbyterian chruch.' The writer ascribes an extraordinary production to these farms." " Higher up th6 river still, where the rivers Sumass an 1 Chilliwhr.ck join the Fraser, arc rising settlements — Sumass Prairie 25,000 acres. Prime beef, choice butter and cheese, fine cereals, wide-spreading fertile prairies and valh-ys here, thinly M aboil ii ^An,| ! finef : mikl I froni Ivallf g00([ the of better iishels of iian corn generally ligh as 15 ad even 3 le carrots, oration bo )lcs, pears, stern part uth of the mber, with rab apples. salt-water om for set- north and : 500 acres yielding 50 r Prolific") ,f it, within ^emiahmoo, side ; giant I cannot bo also ferns, ie-tree shine r on a grand vay carriage plenty well ild hay, also T farms near icy, Langlcy, id requiring I, November, mould with , the gleam- uU of trout, rt cultivated, iding in the iltivatod, fine Again, ' 600 le next, ' 300 school ; neat ion to these hack join the beef, choice rs here, thinly ^^ 2ft ■■ ,;.; . t v-?:i-j !,\:.; .t'uu . .( / peopled yet ; 60 to 80 farms ; good dwellings, barns, stables, churches, schools, shops, giist mill ; 600 acres wheat raised last year, 40 to 50 bushes an acre ; 200 acres oats ; also potatoes, peas, beans, hop«, fruit and even tobacco ; supply beef to Yale and Hope (Vale gets some beef also from Nicola) ; extent of prairies great; much good land also on the Chilliwhacii above the valley that would do well when cleared. 0KAXAr.A>f COUNTRY. Very fine stock country, and will also produce grain ; yield fall wheat only ■without irrigation; al?o profusely oats, barley, Indian corn, potatoes, tomatoes, inusk-melons, water-melons, grBi>e-vines, tobacco. Summer warm, has shown 98" in the shade, cold is shaip in winter, but weather clear and sunny, snow seldom deep, and 'lever lies long, cattle, horses and sheep as a rule, unhoused in winter ; moderate preparation, however, recommended. " The lake, 70 miles long by 1^ miles wide ; country to the east of it a fair sample of the bests districts between Rocky and Cascade ranges ; open, grassy hills, dotted with trees like. English parks, successive hills and dales; lakes, ponds, and streams full of llsh ; soil muc'i the same general character as the iSimilkameen ; rich sandy loam, substratum of clay in some valleys, stretches of < bottom ' land, some alkali patches; some settlers coming in fHSt and taking up land eince Canadian Pacfic Railway began. Thos-^ who would have ' sold out' a year ago are now tilling and improving their land. It is said that in Okanagan and adjoining districts, there is room for a farming population of 10,000 souls (allowing 160 acres for nine per- sons.) Roman Catholic mission post 1,100 feet above sea level) on the enst side of the lake; fine countiy bebind it. On the west side of the lake, a little distance back runs a low mountain range from which detatched spurs press upon the lake, and rise above the waters in precipitous bluifs ; excellent pasture, particularly on small spits jutting into the lake. The Cherry Creek silver mine has been abandoned for the present. " Near the north end of the lake is an Indian reserve of very choice land. •' j KAMLOOPS-SHfSWAP DI8TEICT. " Let us enter the district from the east. Columbia River is 44 miles from fihuswap Lake, via Eagle Pa.ss. Three Valley Lake (altitude 1,912 feet) is about 34 miles from Shuswap Lake. Directly south from Three Valley Lake is a long, wide, grassy valley, which leads across a low ' divide ' to the head- waters of the Shuswap or Spillemeechcns River. This is a gentle river flowing through a large valley, much of which has clay sub-soil ; tifte fall wheat without irrigation ; very good and heavy crops here ; large farm buildings ; well fenced fields ; Indians at work on farms ; tine bunch grass on the high land, round which the river makes a southern bend. I " A farmer on the Sbuswap Prairie thrashed out 80 tons of wheat in 1879 ; two other farmers 40 tons eai . Prices here of very superior extra flour, $12 (48s. Eng- lish) per barrel of 196 llw ; choice bacon, 25 cents (Is. OJd. English) per lb. ; juicy beef, 10 cents (5d. English) per lb. " Leaving the Shuswap or Spillemoechene River at a point, say beyond where Cherry Creok joins it, there is between that point and the head of the Okanngan Lake a district of open prairie nnd sparsely timbered land, abounding in rich pastur- age and dotted with a few farming settlements. " From the head of Okanagan Lake to tlie Thompson River (South branch) is about 45 miles northwest. Leaving the open, rolliiig, bunch-grass valleys of Okana- gan, you first ascend for about 20 miles through timber land ; reach Grand Prairie — fine soil, luxuriant bunch grass, dotted witii cattle ; the prniric IG miles by two ; miles, bounded by bills, a river between ; elevation (1.450 feet) causes some danger I from night frost. Grand Prairie to Thompson River — glittering stream through ■valley, liordere'd by alders and willows, green meadows, clumps of trees, small lakes ; good soil ready for cultivation. <' There is an open, or lightly timbered bunch-grass country along the banks of f the No'th Thompsoa River, and north of Kamloops Iiake for 130 miles. " Several English gentlemen, from the American side, have taken a prairie of 2000 acres on the North Thompson, a short distance from ILamloops, and are ranking a long ditch for ii'rigation. "In 1871, the yield of grain on the Tranquil and north and south branches of the Thompson River was a million and a quarter pounds. " The whole Kamloop-SrShuRwap district is a district of table land, with consid- erable depressions— abundant pasture, generally free from forests, and only inter- spersed with timber; summer climate dry, great heat; winter frequently very cold for a day or two, but on the whole not very sharp ; snow generally lies a short time on'" ; cattle are driven here to winter, in severe seasons ; Hudson's Bay Company iised to ' winter out ' 500 horses here, including brood mares and young horses. This district will doubtless become known again as a mineral distric . The first gold found in quantity by the natives was found in this district, and faii wages are still made on the Thompson River. The Thompson, near its mouth, is too full, rapid, and rocky for mining.' ^U i NICOLA COUNTRY'. " Directly south from Kamloops, 30 miles, is i^icola Lake. The road at present fromKamloops is a sort of natural trail over gently undulating but High open country, with fine grass. First few miles no herbage ; many ravines. At the fivst heightj turn and survey the magnificent scenery of the Thompson River valleys, will give some idea of the grazing resources of the Province. Can bring a waggon with light load across from Kamloops to Nicola Lake, if yon take a guide, an axe, and a spade." LIIiLOET-CLINTON DISTRICT. '*'' ■ ^ ' " This district includes Cache Creek, Bonaparte, also Wiiiiams Lake, and up to Quesnel Mouth. " The whole district is a ve* y fine one, and at present shows what can be done by applying capital to the soil. It is fartiier to the north, and generally more ele- vated than some sections already described, the risks of crops from summer night frosts may be said to be very considerable in the entire country on the wagf on-road north of Pavilion Mountain, unless farms have a south aspect or are protected from north blasts. The remark applies more particularly to farms farther north than Alex- andria. " The surface in so large a section of country is, of course, varied. It embraces within its area fertile river-benches (tt-rraces), table lands, largo open valleys, im- mense plains and great rolling hills. '■ The country near the Thompson, Bonaparte and Hat Rivers is very attractive to the eye ; miles of green hills, crowning slopes, and level meadows ; hardly a bush or a tree ; fine grass almost to the hill-tops. The climate very healthfrJ and enjoy- able ; rather a want of timber in parts, also of rain generally, but there are many streams. " For grazing, the country cannot be surpassed, and its agricultural capabilities, so far as the soil is concerned, are in many parts very good. At Cache Creek and on the Bonaparte there is excellent arable land. The country through which the wag- gon-road passes to Williams Lake has some ver/ good soil, with no more timber than is n-icded for farming purposes. The farming land is bounded by low hills, beyond which there are prairies and valleys. These hills are undulating and brightly green, and their grassy carpet is daisied over with countless wild flowers." I have no doubt, when my honorable friend the Minister of PubHc Works has completed his improvements, we shall get loo to 150 miles of navigation, up into the mineral regions, that will become available. Mr. Blake — Will it yield as much as Vancouver Island? Sir Charles Tupper — He does not say anything about that. Mr. MACKENZfE — It ought to do that, I should think. Sir Charles Tupper — I do not think that honorable gentlemen should abuse Vancouver Island after agreeing to expend four millions upon it. •27 prairie of re making ranches of th conRid- mly inter- very cold short time Company •scs. This i first gold s are still , rapid, and at present 3P country, Lvst height; , Will give with light d a spade." , and np to !an be done y more ele- amer night agfon-road itected from 1 than Alex- It embraces valleys, im- ry attractive irdly a bn8?i 1 and enjoy- e are many capabilities, !reek and on ich the wag- timber than lills, beyond ightly green, : of Public 50 miles of le. ;'t^*w It. men should ms upon it. I may say that the horses owned by the Government, are, in the Kam- loops district, unhoused during the winter, and have been found to Oe in good condition in the spring. No part of British Columbia is better suited for settlement and cultivation than that of the Kamloops district. Mr. M.^CKENZiE — That is the best part of the country. Sir Charles Tupper — There is no doubt of it ; and that is one of the reasons for adopting it as the railway route. Honorable gentlemen opposite exercised a wise and sound discretion in committing the country to the con- struction of the 125 miles now put under contract, and which will bring us in communication with the navigation of tiie north and south Thompson, and render access to the rich mines of Cariboo comparatively easy. The gold and coal mines will be made accessible by easy and rapid communi- cation, and i)romote, as the honorable gentleman said to his constituents at Samia, the opening up of the inaccessible parts where there are inexhausti- ble riches in the bosom of the earth. Well, sir, we resolved not to waste time in surveys, but to make a rapid exploration of the route to Port Simpson, and undertake at once ti. istrv.ction in accordance with our pledge to Parliament. Upon determining that the line to Burrard Inlet was the best we should have been false to ourselves and obliged to sacrifice the best interests of the country if we did not act promptly and carry it out. In putting this section under contract I am glad to be able to say that the contracts will not be found to be fraught with the danger that honorable gentlemen might suppose, unless they take the trouble to read them. They have been let in maximum quantities : after putting in every- thing that could possibly be required. $1,000,000 extra is added for any possible contingencies. The contracts themselves amount to $9,167,000 ; $1,000,000 of that is for contingencies. The contracts are let by the yard, but the Government have ascertained by proper evidence the very outside Quantities possible required for the construction of a first class road ; and the Government have reserved power to cut down the work to any extent that may be found practicable, and at the same time to construct road of the cheapest description from Kamloops to Yale. By carefully laying out the work, by carefully watching its progress, by carefully reducing the work ; by^ increasing the curvature and increasing the grades if necessary and advisable, we may finish and equip the road below the actual amount, as stated in the contract ; and we have also reserved the power to stop the work at any moment. '- ■'■*■'■' '- -^V': ''^' '. Mr. Blake — Could you do it now ? Sir Charles Tupper — I still hope to prove to the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) that it would not be in the interest of the country to bring this work to a stand, to tarnish the fair fame of Canada by declaring that we were ready to repudiate solemn engagements, simply because they were entered into by our predecessors. We do not bind our- selves to build the road by 1890, as they did ; we limited our obligation to ^ build that road by the greater obligations that we owe to Canada, not to do anything that will materially interfere with the interests of the Dominion. ;4We will not hold ourselves bound — although the honorable genileman has pledged us to do it — to spend "$2,000,000 per annum. We do not expect to spend $r, 000,000 this year; and if we stop the contractor at any time, if. 28 through any disturbance of the Hon. the Minister of Finance's calculations or othenvise, it may be found expedient to do so, we can stop the work without paying one dollar for loss, or for the profits the contractors might otherwise have made. If that stoppage is ordered for six months, we must make compensat'on by extending six months to the time allowed for the completion of the contract. I expect, with the utmost confidence, that that road will be finished and equipped with a moderate amount of rolling stock in as cheap a manner as is compatible with safety in going over it, and that the whole of the cost will come within the $9,000,000. I will now refer to the objections to the Burrard Inlet route made a year ago, first that it was too near the American frontier. j\Ir. Mackenzie — Have you not shifted the frontier ? Sir Charles Tupper — We cannot prevent our line being exposed to having its traffic carried to a terminus in the United States ; but there was a more important matter — that "'■•e Burrard Inlet could be commanded by guns on San Juan Island, and we considered how that difficulty could be met. Mr. Blake — It might be done by getting a big gun ourselves. Sir Charles Tupper — The honorable gentleman says by getting a big gun ourselves ; but we have another mode of meeting the difficulty, namely, by the construction, when required, of eight miles of railroad, from the har- bor of Esquimault to Sanwich Inlet, which will enable us to get to Burrard Inlet, and thus avoid one of the principal objections that I raised last year. The honorable gentleman will not have the opportunity, I think, to throw the taunt across the House that I carried out a policy to which I was op- pcsed. I had the candour to say, last year, in the light of all that was then known, that I would select Burrard Inlet, and all we asked the House to say was that the location of that line was premature. The subsequent explora- tion and examination confirmed us in the course we adopted, and having made this examination I think we disposed of the word " premature." Having propounded the policy of the construction of this road by the aj)- propriation of 100,000,000 acres of lands, the Government folt it was neces- sary to put before the world the most authentic information we could get in relation to that land, and, notwithstanding that a large amount of money has been expended on surveys, I think that it is not so large as we have been led to suppose. Some $900,000, charged for surveys, should have gone towards construction, because it was really in relation to the location and construction of the road. But, as the honorable First Minister of that day told the House, this was no ordinary survey. We were exploring a country running from Nipissing to St. James' Bay, running from Vancouver Island to Fort Simpson, and running from the fifty-first to the fifty-sixtli parallel of latitude across the continent. The report I laid upon the tabic of the House last year was accompanied by a map giving the best informa- tion in possession of the Government in relation to the lands in the North West. In^this map t'le portions of the country about which we had no definite information as to its value for settlement were indicated ; and I am happy to be able to say that from the explorations of the i)ast season we are now able to say that from the foot of the Rocky Mountains to the western :i theNJ «iruct| t^ey tbe ot miles I pletec 5oo, gj l^tinJ Ifing] s&ortj 29 ilculations the work .ors might ^ we must ed for the 2, that that Uing stock t, and that )\v refer to ;hat it was exposed to t there was manded by y could be i ves. retting a big ilty, namely, om the har- t to Burrard ed last year, nk, to throw h I was op- hat was then House to say lent explora- and having ' preniature." ad by the ap- it was neces- z could i-ct in uit of money ^Q as we have ^should have ) the location mister of that e exploring a 3m ^'^ancouvel• the fifty-sixth upon the table best informa- s in the North ch we had no ted ; and I am t season we are to the western I boundary of Manitoba we can find 150,000,000 acres of good land, and I only 30,000,000 acres of land unfit for settlement. Mr. Mackenzie — That is not the railway belt. Sir Charles Tupper — Yes, it is. The honorable gentleman can see [ that for himself from the map. Mr. Charlton — Does it cover the Peace River district? Sir Charles Tupper — It does to some extent. I am happy to be able ^to state that the surveys will be completed on the first day of July this year, and that every dollar in the estimates for the coming season will be expended in the construction of the road. Although in connection with the diversion of the line south of Lake Manitoba, to run through a country valuable for settlement — the best country for the railroad to jjass through and to promote colonization as rapidly as possible — the length of the line was increased some twenty miles, nearly four miles were saved between Thunder Bay and the Red River. We have found a good line between Winnipeg and the Rocky Mountains, escaping the enormous gullies to the south of Edmonton Pass, which shortens the road by ten miles or more. I Mr. Mackenzie— This is not measured yet. Sir Charles Tupper — No ; we are obliged to deal with approximate measureuiv^nts in order to discuss this question at all. I am also happy to be able to say that, so far from the second 100 miles being open to the criti- cisms of the honorable gentleman, we have not only got a good line, but we have just received tenders for the construction of probably as heavy a sec- tion of line as there is between Red River and the foot of the Rocky Moun- tains, under $500,000 for 100 miles. The grades will not exceed those of the Grand Trunk or Great Western Railways. If there is any part of the line which it is important should have the best possible grade, it is that between the country from the Red Ri\'er to Lake Superior. No person who heard the elaborate statement of the honorable the Minister of the In- terior the other night, can doubt but that the population will increase in the counti-y as rapidly as he depicted. Mr. Blake — Hear, hear. {:■ Sir Charles Tupper — I will refer the honorable gentleman to the Grit Bible for evidence of the accuracy of those statements. I have here a*i extract from the G/ode newspaj^er : — " It would not indicate extravagant hope to say that 1,000,000 poopl.- will bo in the North West Territories before the 1,400 miles already considered have been cou- atructed. But let us say that only 500,000 people are then in the North West. If t^ey contribute to the Dominion treasury in the same proportion as the people of the other provinces, tbey will increase the revenue by $3,000,000 a yeir. The 1,300 miles of railway we treat of will certainly not cos* more than $30,000,000 when com- pleted and equipped. That sum represents an annual payment of interest of $1,200,- OOO, so that no less than $1,800,000 would remain to the good. Part of it would, of Course, go in expenses of government and protection lor the 500,000 people contri-?- Initing the whole, but it is easy to see that tne Dominion has nothing to lose by cat-S. tf ing the Pacific Railway to the Ilocky Mountains at an early date." 4 ■< This is a corrobc-ation ci the statement, that we will be able to build the \v^hole road from the customs duty alone of the 500,000 people that will shortly go into that country. Under the circumstances, I am astonished at. ^S: I -.9 ■3 n I il Ui honorable gentiemen opposite arraying themselves in an attitude of hostility to this work, on the ground that it is going to plunge us into financial diffi- culties. Although I ;i not prepared to admit the accuracy of everything that appears in the Globe,! believe that the editor never penned a wiser or more patriotic article than the one I have just quoted. No man has been more unjustl}' assailed by that newspaper than myself, but after reading that article I am prepared to forgive that pai)er everything. I feel that at last, actuated by patriotic sentiments in a crisis like this, the editor feels bound to come forward and cast his great influence in favor of this im- portant work demanded alike by good faith and the best interests of Canada. The same article continues : — '« We now come to the Lake Superior section, which is certainly a political necestjity, but not required till the prairie lino has been completed and connected with Thunder Bay. It is, as we have shown, reasonable to suppose that 'it least half a million people will be on the plains when the Pacific Railway reaches the Rocky Mountains. Every family going in afterward will increase the quantity of produce available for expQrt. The population of the United States doubled itself in twenty- five years ; in several western territories the population has been doubled in ten years. The Canadian North West will gain by immigration continually, and— as always happens where fertile land can be easily procured — births will be very numerous. By the time the line to the Rocky Mountains has been completed it will be wise to push on the road around Lake Superior, because before it can be built at a fair rate of speed a large traffic will await its opening. The Lake Superior sec- tion from the eastern terminus of the main Pacific to Fort William will be G20 miles long, and when completed it will offer to the traffic of the Canadian and to a large part of the American North West the shortest all-rail route to the seaboard. It is not needed till the prairies have been opened up by the line to the Rocky Moun- tains. After that has been built it may be safely completed as a commercial road, one that will pay better year by year, and will ultimately be a very valuable property." ^\\;vii,-AyV.^^HK\'i<'n\-o-x\\m\.\i.ll^^^ What is our present position? On the 31st December last we had expended $14,159,665. 1 give the items : — The expenditure on the lines from Lake Superior to Red River has been $4,866,861 ; on telegraphs, $505,039 ; Pembina Branch, exclusive of rails, $511,214; on rails, bolts and spikes, for the work altogether, up to the 31st December, $2,968,062. Mr. Mackenzie — What has been done with the old rails ? Sir Charles TuppER — Those are the old rails. I am not including any considerable amount of the rails purchased since, because the payments up to 31st December have not been made to any large extent. On the Canada Central there was spent $563,715. I am glad to be able to say, in connection with the contract for the section west of Red River, that the contractor entertains no doubt of opening fifty miles by July, and of laying the track and being able to carry passengers over the one hundred miles by the end of the season. We also expect to be able to complete the first fifty miles of die second one hundred, west of Manitoba, by the July following, and the remainder during the year 1881. P'or engineering and miscella- neous expenditures in connection with construction, $993,000 ; payments not under contract, including such as for land at the Kaministiqua, and dredging at Thunder Bay, &c., $247,300. The total for construction, $10,729,257, to the 31st December last. Explorations, preliminary surveys, and general examination of the whole country from Nipissing to James' Bay in the east, and in British Columbia on the west from Victoria th( ~W€ th| jwil 81 of hostility ancial diffi- everything i a wiser or II has been reading that :hat at last, editor feels of this im- 5 of Canada. ly ft political ml cotinected t 4o,ooo a ;timate of It is light ar. That Lamloops. ;s at $80,- pmcnt for n, instead loody, 90 'hose 550 •. Fleming from Fort ler Valley, ,000. To " engineer- ise will be jvernment d to carry I in British :e Govern- 574, $118,- 162 ; from wo years; from July,, 7, for sur- een Lakes River and 19,618, to res in con- la Branch. eq ipped,, :e Superior That com- miles from >^j..f-' my extend ill be con- da Central g. There- r it. I am during the ine can be- ; be desira- Lake Supe- ;rminus. I ke, and the- i •1 'I line there is much more favorable than was before supposed. The line from Nipissing towards the head of I^ke Superior is also found to be an extremely favorable line, running through an even country, well timbered. So that I .am happy to be able to say that the completion of our national through line of railway from Ottawa to the waters of the Pacific — I may say from Halifax, on the Atlantic, to the waters of the Pacific — will be attended with much less difficulty and expense than we have been led to suppose down to the present time. I need not say we do not propose to grapple with the whole of this work at the present moment, but I believe that with the prospect of the development of the great North West and the increase of population, at a comparatively early day, the pressure for the construction of the through line will ere long become so great as to warrant and compel that work being undertaken as essential in the interests of Canada. Now, I believe we may safely put the cost of that work at $30,000 a mile. In the first .place, we will have easy access to it by the Canada Central, at or near Sturgeon River, sixty or seventy miles Avest of the present terminus at South East Bay. From the head of Lake Superior at Nipigon we will again strike the line by water communication, and at Fort William we will have a rail- way for the purpose of reaching it at that end. Striking at these three points I believe we may safely put that work at $30,000 a mile, which would add $18,000,000 to complete this great national highway. If we were to put it at $30,000 a mile, an amount to which it may be safely reduced, we make a total of $82,869,618. Mr. Fleming estimates this 600 miles at $20,000,000, which woold make $84,869,618. When I remind the House that the land alone, according to the authority of the Right Hon. Minister of the Interior, upon a calculation which he believes to be sound, within the next ten years, will give US$38,000,000 in hand, and $32,000,000 to receive on mortgages within the following ten years, or a total sum of $70,000,000 — it will be seen that we incur no risk. But suppose the land does not give us that, we have an authority which honorable gentlemen opposite will accept, that the customs revenue from the people who will go into the country for the next ten years will furnish the interest on $60,000,000. I have no hesitation in saying that the whole sentiment of the country has changed on this question. I am not at all ashamed to say that my own opinions have completely changed in relation to the character of this great work. I remember well that when the then First Minister brought in his act in 1874, for the construction of this as a Government work, 1 felt that we were incurring too great a responsibility. I believed at that time it was an unsafe and unsound policy for the Government of this country to undertake the construction of this great national work from end to end as a Government work, and I did not hesitate to express my opinions as freely and as forcibly as I could on the occasion of the passage of that measure. But the whole condition of Canada has changed since then. There is not an intelligent man in this country who does not look upon the prospect of the settlement and development of the North West with entirely different feelings from those that were then entertained. Why, who could listen to the glowing statements of the honorable member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) when he pictured the enormous tide of emigration into .the North Western States, and pointed out that a similar tide 84 was only waiting for an opportunity to , pour into our own North West ; who could listen to the evidence the honorable gentleman gave that the investment of $54,000,000 capitalized, would have given the United States all the money that had been received from those lands and enable them to have disposed of them by free grants instead of by sale, without feeling tha^ he was furnishing the strongest evidence of the safety of the course that this Government was adopting in grappling with this ques- tion. By our land regu'ations we present these fertile regions of our North West Territory in a more attractive form for settlement than even the lands in the United States were offered, and, at the same time, hold within our grasp, for sale, lands enough to more than recoup Canada for every dollar expended on this railway. Let me again quote an opinion that is rhuch stronger with honorable gentlemen opposite than anything I can utter, that is, an article in the great organ of their party, the Globe^ which, after *a most careful examination of this whole question, says : — " It is admitted by everyone that the plains of the North West Territories are exceedingly fertile, and capable of sustidning, by agriculture, a population twice as numerous as the present population of the United States. It is also admitted that a railway from Selkirlt to the BocKy Mountains will open up the country so rapidly that in a very few years the line will pay, as a commercial entcrpriBe. There is nothing to be gained by constructing it much faster than a continuous westward set- tlement can be made on the adjacent belt of land. But no one can doubt that it will pay the Dominion well t« build that piece of road. It will be 900 miles long, or over one-third of the whole Pacific Railway. * « • ♦ » . . We find, then, that no less than 1,024 miles of the proposed Pacific Road may be fairly considered as a commercial enterprise. That it is also a national enterprise, is a very poor argument against the project. When the road has been carried from the Eastern terminus to the Rocky Mountains, it is safe to say that the population of the North West will be great enough to contribute to the Dominion Treasury a larger snm than will pay the interest on the loan, for which the older Provinces must first pkdge their credit. We have taken no account of the laud sales, which must, if well managed, put every year, a large and continually increasing sum into the bunds of the Government. ♦ • • » « jjy^ there is a political side to the question. British Columbia will feel aggrieved unless some attempt is made to keep faith with her. Todevejop the resources of the Province in advance ot the comple- tion of the Pacific road is not an unreasonable wish. There is a considerable tract of good territory along the lakes and rivers of the proposed Yale-Kamloops section. That piece of road v ill cost perhaps $12,000,000 when equipped, and it is proposed to finish it during tb- ^ext five years. Canada is asked to spend $2,405,000 a year for the purpose o ol jnizing and contenting British Columbia. The interest on the money will be $9C, 00 the first year, and $480,000 in the last and each year there- after. Now, it may be thought that this is not a large annual sum to pay for a piece of road, wh,h, though not necessary to the older Provinces, must bo built some time, and in ihe meantime will materially INCREASB THK WEALTH AND POPULATION OF THE PACIFIC PROVINCB. If 100,000 people settle in British Columbia during the construction of ti.e road — and there is every reason why that number should go there in the coi'.rse of ; few years — the Dominion will receive from them a revenue sufficient to pay the in- terest on the expenditure. It is no unimportant consideration that the people of the Pacific Province would rebel against the total abandonment of the line, and by clamoring for secession end.nnger the permanence of Confederation." I trust the.se statements will relieve the honorable gentlemen opposite of any apprehension they may have as to the entire safety of at once un- dertaking the work, in the cautious manner the Government have adopted, volumt aof^gi' stnicti( w|jole rjn own North gentleman e given the ! lands and of by sale, the safety ol h this ques- f our North en the lands I within onr every dollar hat is much n utter, that after 'a most T * "' " n " ' ' ...It » . 'i' rerritorics are ition twice as Imitted that a try so rapidly iee. There is westward st-t- doubt that it 100 miles long, • • ♦ Road may be il enterprise, is arried from the Ipulation of the lasury a larger nces must first hmnst, if well I the hands of ical side to the 8 made to keep ot the comple- sidcrable tract mioops section. it is proposed ,401,000 a year interest on the ach year there- ) pay for a piec c bo built some 86 . i o\v, I mist refer once more to that great authority in the estimation of the onorable gentlemen opposite. On tiie opening day of the session, and ng before that, at the time the Ciovcrnment were engaged in this explora- tion to Port Simpson, and investigating as to whether it were possible to find an easier line, what was the Gio/>e telling British Columbia : — < " If Mr. Mackeiijsio had not been deprived of power, that route, ift this moment, Ijrouid have been under construction, and being rapidly pushed to completion." • i' The Globe, no doubt, when it found the honorable gentleman not only idvertising for tenders, but actually making an expenditure of $32,400, in hot haste during the progress of a general election, to move the rails from Es(iui.nault to Yale, concluded that he was just as serious as I concluded he was. I was not alone, for the organ of liis party seems to have been laboring under the same misconception, as a reference to the Globe will show. Not only did the Globe .say that, but it also stated, on the opening day of this session, if I remember rightly, at the time the leader of the Opposition was actually intimating that he was prejjared to go back upon Ins own record, and abandon the keeping of good fitith with British Colum- bia, to which he had pledged this country, it told the peo]jle that if he had BBDt lost power the work would have been under construction at that mo- nient. I need not say more than that to show how thoroughly the honor- able gentleman had convinced every person of his intention to go forward with that work. I dare say I will be told by the honorable member for ■tpest Durham (Mr. Blake) : Granted that your figures are correct, assum- that you can build this railway for even less money than you have esti- ated, you have only encountered the first difficulty ; you have then J operate the line, and the cost ot that will be so greatly beyond anything ydii can hope to obtain from it, that you will place an intolerable burden upon the people of this country. I must address myself for a few moments to^that question. I will first give the information I have just received from tl^e Superintendent of the Pembina Branch : — ' .' '•• • 'jv..'-! . "The 160 miles we have now opened in the North West, shows that from tK« 1st day of March to the 12th of April we have carried 5,2:j6 passengers, and 1,J|48 loaded cars, containing 12,460 tons of freight. The gross receipts during that 8lldrt period were iil.'JCHS?, and working expenses $1.5,000, leaving a net i)rofit of $U|„;'.87, and this during a more diihcult and stormy period than has been known for nifiny years." i^ By July, 1882, we will have about 700 miles of this road in operation; wk will have 85 miles from Selkirk to Elmerson or .St. Vincent. We will have 200 miles in operation west of the Red River, which, with the branch of 16 miles to Winnipeg, will give us some 700 miles in operation, without reference at all to the section in British Columbia. I have every itruction of ti.t" reason to believe that every mile of that road, from the day if is oi>ened, the course of t will make an ample return for all the expenditure incurred in its operation. VINCB. ^g Qf &^^ entrepot of that country, as will prevent it from burdening the people, *^PP°^.'. and give us some fair return for the interest on the money used in its con- len bf at onceun ^^^^^^^ have adopted, Honorable gentlemen must not forget, as I said before, 1 whole aspect of affairs in this country has entirely changed within hat the a brief 36 period ; that that w'.iich would have been properly regarded as highly- imaginative in relation to the development of the Canadian North-west, must now be looked upon with very different eyes indeed. My honorable predecessor need only recall to his mind the fact that he publicly adver- tised^ ui 1876, offering $10,000 a mile and 20,000 acres of land for th? construction of the road, and asking how much more aipital tenderers would require four per cenr upon for twenty-five years to induce them to undertake this work. And what was the response ? Not a tender. So coiupletely had the honorable gentleman opposite succeeded in imbuing the minds ot" capitalists in this country and abroad with the hopelessness of this enterprise, that not one of them would undertake it as a conniiercial enter- prise on any terms. What is the condition of things to day, supposing uiis Government were to put an advertisement like that in the papers asking on what terms capital! s would come forw ard and construct the road from Red River to Kamloops, and repay us all the expenditure we have made beyond Red River, and undertake' to maintain and operate not only all that part of that road, but the rest of the road down to Yale or Burrard Inlet ? Would there be no response ? If such a proposal were made to-morrow, does he not know that the first capitalists of this country would come to the front and offer to construct and operate that road on terms that would for ever settle the question as to whether this undertaking would be a serious burden on the people of this country I have good reason to state that such an offer as that would secure the construction and operation of the whole line from Red River to Kamloops, with the operation and mainten- ance of all the road to the Pacific, at a cost not exceeding $13,000 or $10,000 per mile from Red River to Kamloops, and 26,000,00c acres of land. In that case we would be in this position, as the honorable gentleman would see, that the whole expenditure of an unknown quantity, proving a burden that could noc be calculated, would be entirely removed, and we would be in a position of having this great national work accomplished within ten year;., and on terms that would involve comparatively light expenditure from the people of this country, and that would be a thousand tin'ves recouped from the development of the North-west. Mr, MackExNzie-— Not a thousand times. Mr. Blake — Nor a hundred. Sir Charles Tupper — While I say recouped, ai. J when I said a thousand fold, I did not mean, as the honorable gentleman knows, that tlie actual amount would be returned a thousand times. I meant that tliere would be such a development of the magnificent North West of this country as would lift Canada rapidly into the position of a nation. And I would ask the honorable gentleman whether, under these circumstances, the Government is not in a position to say that they feel entirely free from any apprehension as to the cost either of the construction or the operation of this road after its construction. Before I sit down, I must refer to the question of cancel- \mg the contract of the Georgian Bay Branch. As the honorable gentlemen know, the Georgian Bay Branch was undertaken without the necessary information. As the honorable gentlemen know, the pclicy of the Govern- ment of that day had to be completely changed after they ascertain(,*d the difficulties they would encounter, and the uselessneijs of the work after it to Sai dt'r chai the Pau real j)eri( en or stup com they 87 1 :vas done. Instead of going from Nipissing to the Georgian Bay, it was decided to stop the road at Cantin's Bay, and canalize the French River from that point. The Government satisfied themselves that, in the interest of Canada, all the money tnat was expended south of Lake Nipissing would be thrown away. Having satisfied themselves of that they ..ancelled th^t contract. It is now evident that the attention of the whole of this country has turned to the question of obtaining the shortest line of communication to our Great North West by Sault Ste. Marie. Honorable gentlemen oppo- site may remind me that at one time I entertained serious objection to going by Sault Ste. Marie, but the case is different to-day. Mr. Mackenzie — Most other people are going to the States. Sir Charles Tupper — There is nothing that makes one despair so much of the future of this country as the determined, settled policy of honor- able gentlemen opposite to decry and trample down their own country ; but I tell honorable gentlemen they mistake the patriciism of our people if they imagine they will ever ride into power over the ruins of their country. What is wanted to give a rapid and decided impetus to the progress and prosperity of Canada is that patriotism in the hearts and minds (if its sons — (cheers) — which will enable them to unite ir. raking up a great national question free from the lowering and degrading tendency of party politics, which leads men to seek party and personal advantages at the cost of the country. When I opposed the construction of the line to the Sault, it was at a time when we had no line imder construction from Thunder Kiy to Red River ; but the moment the Government was committed to the building of that line, it was our duty to look for means by which we could make it pro- ductive. What are those means ? I have satisfied myself that the road, with its easy grade and cheap rate at which it will be able to bring down the produ"ts of the North West, cannot possibly have a competitor. What would be the result of the extension of this road from Nipissing to the Sault Ste. Marie? The distance from Montreal to Winnipeg via Chicago is 1,741 miles. But, suppose a road were built to the Sault, and a line was built to St. Paul along the south shore of Lake Superior, the distance by that route would be 1,563 miles. By Duluth, the shorte-.t line t'i l>e obtained by way of the United States, would be 1,514 miles. From Montreal to Nipissing, and thence to Thunder Bay and on to Winnipeg, ihe distance would be 1,358 miles, while by the Sault Ste. Marie and water communication from Goulais Bay lo Thun- dt'r Bay, it would be only 1,288 miles. (Cheers.) I believe that with the chaiacter of our road, the cheapness with which we can bring the traffic of the North West across it, there is no road, be it by way of Dulmh or St. Paul, that can compete with us. Therefore, I am glad that there is the j)rospect of seeing either the Canada Central or Pacific Junction carried through to the Sault, bringing our great Ncrdi West within sixty hours of Mont- real, and Toronto 100 miles nearer, and that within a comparatively brief period. Those who will look at the Union Pacific Railway, and notice the enormous difficulties its builders had to contend with, will see ours is not a stupendous task. They had to go through a comparatively barren country compare^ with which ours is a garden. For more than a thousand miles they had to surmount heights of 4,500 feet above the level of the sea, while y the passes through which we cross the Rocky Mountains are under 4,000. They have to go through a country where the snowfall in the passes reaches thirty feet, and where they have forty miles of snow-sheds, to prevent trains from being buried. They have to pass through a country with steeper grades than we will have to encounter, and yet the road was built in the teeth of just such parliamentary struggles as we are to-day obliged to endure. But, when constructed, the road silenced all opposition ; and if with a country which, according to a high American authority, embraces three-fourths of the remaining wheat zone on the American continent, if with this advantage, and our other advantages, we hesitate in discharging our duty to the countrj', we should be unworthy of the position we occupy, either as statesmen or patriotic Canadians. (Loud Cheers.) No person can look abroad over the Dominion without feeling that the great North West T >.. I. ifV: } (I . r*j 'b i'A ■■! i'J[ :;;i'i,' ; si- fiercely. At that period, I believe, the honorable member for West Dur- ham was one of the strongest supporters of the Mackenzie Government, i And, moreover, I think the honorable member lor Lambton has stated,, some time ago, that he never intended to build those four sections. , ., , , Mr. Mackenzie — I said no such thing. Mr. Langevin — I understood the honorable gentleman said he had not decided to go on with those four sections. But my honorable friend the Minister of Railways has shown that, although the honorable gentleman hud not decided to go on with them, he had ordered and given a contract to convey 6,000 tons of rails from Victoria to the Fraser River. ' The honor- • able gentleman had given a contract for that, nevertheless he says, he had not decided to build the railway I The honorable gentleman says, yes ; perhaps he will remember what he said on another occasion. It is for him ' to reconcile what he has just said with what he said then. At the elections for Ottawa, in September, 1878. the honorable gentleman spoke as follows^ ■ according to his organ the Free Press ; — On the west, we have, at this moment, very nearly completed 302 miles of road, and during this year will lay at least 270 miles. In British Columbia we have only 6,000 tons, moved up now to Yale, where we will commence, next spring, if Parliament sanctions the contract, to build the road to Kamloops. And yet the honorable gentleman has not decided to proceed with this - work ! ;.i i- Mr. Mackenzie — Certainly not. Mr. Langevin — But the honorable gentleman said before the electors that he had so decided. Either he deceived the electors of Ottawa or has deceived this House. At that time, the member for West Durham sup- ported the late Government, and had been the colleague of the honorable Premier ; he had assented to his policy, and never separated from the hon- orable Premier on account of the railway work going on. But what a change ! As soon as the late honorable Ministers Itft office, their party ceased to regard the Pacific Railway in the same light. The honorable member for West Durham, especially, became frightened at the prospect of the construction of more than four sections in British Columbia. Every- thing became dark to him and his party ; the greatest ruin was threatening us in connection with that work, which the late Government had not at- tempted to construct. But what is the cause of this change? It is this: that instead of having large deficits we have taken the means of preventing them, at the same time carrying on the Public Works of the country. 'I'he member for West Durham should remember that he accepted the Carnar- von terms exacted from the late Government. Of course, the Ute Govern- ment inserted the condition about not raising further the ratj of taxation, but that was after they had raised the taxation by $3,000,000. But did they meet the ordinary expenses even.>vith the $3,000,000 additional taxa- tion ? No. All the time they were in office they ran into debt, which we have now to meet. The honorable gentleman says that those terms were not accepted by the Government without the consent of Parliament. No doubt, but tliey were accepted by the country. It was understood that $2,000,000 would be expended per annum in British Columbia, but the honorable gentlemen opposite, following their ordinary course towards that H 42 Province, repudiated those terms, and sent a Commission to British Colum- bia; she would not accept $750,000 in exchange for the original bargain. Up to that time he would not repudiate the Railway altogether ; but that Government offered that amount to content that Province for the postpone- ment of the work, as says the honorable member for West Durham. But she was not poor or reduced enough to accept such a bribe, saying : " We have a Treaty with Canada, w'ach we know is just and proud enough to do justice to a small, weak Province like British Columbia ; " and she was right. She is not unreasonable ; she has taken the word of this Gov- •ernment, that it will go on with the Railway ; and though the work was not begun before the ist of January last, the "'rovince knew it was iiot our fault, and that the contracts would be given out early. Now, if the people of British Columbia see the road does not progress at full speed, they will not complain because they know we are acting in good faith, and that if we are not spending more millions and going on faster, it is because we cannot afford it. They know we are proceeding gradually and surely with the work. We do not want to plunge the country into debt and ruin as the honorable member for West Durham asserts ; but we want to keep •;: . faith with British Colun^bia, though not at the immense expense he thinks we shall incur. We wish to build a good road, a colonization road, as in- tended from the beginning. We shall save a great deal in grades and curva- '^^ tures, and by that means, be able to build the road from the Pacific to the older Provinces in such a way as not to overburden this country with ■ expenditure. The honorable member for West Durham desires to catch ^^ Irish sympathy and Irish votes by expressing great regard for Irish rights and claims, almost going as far as Home Ru'°, and anticipating benefits to Ireland from the recent change of Government. I have no doubt that it Ireland will get justice whatever Government is in power, as Canada got b justice when our fathers struggled for a responsible Government. We are as much as th^ honorable gentleman in favour of Irishmen, and we showed our sympathy by proposing to Parliament a vote of $100,000 for the dis-<'.' tressed populations of Ireland. Our sole regret was our inability to do i' more. But wt do not on this or any other occasion wish to parade that * ' sympath} . It was proper to show it at the proper time ; but what reason >! is there for the honorable gentleman to appeal to Irishmen in connection 'J with the Pacific Railway? Another of the honorable gentleman's objects ^' was to catch all the honorable members from Quebec, and enrol them under his banner. What a bad Government, said he, is this Government which-* will not give Quebec a Railway to connect it with the Pacific Railway, after ii it has spent $ir,ooo,ooo for the beautiful railway from Quebec to Ottawa.'^' He says to the honorable members from Quebec : — " The Government will not extend the Pacific Railway far enough east to connect with your road ; therefore, look, be careful, do not miss this opportunity to vote against your frif^uids; my motion proposes to suspend the Railway in British Columbia." «- Did he speak about the eastern end qf the railway in his motion ? Not a word. He might, therefore, have spared himself the trouble of this appeal. I'he Government have not changed its policy, which is to have a continuous railway from the Atlantic to the Pacific. The water-stretches will not be a ])art of the railway, as was the case under the late Government. But we must take the necessary time for the work. We can trust our supporters, 43 on telling them we are completing the gap of 185 miles between Fort William and Selkirk, and have put under contract, 200 miles on the prairies to the west, and four sections in British Columbia, which the late Govern- ment put themselves under coutract and decided to build. The road will , not cost the large amount the honorable member fcr West Durham supposes. He speaks of an exi)enditure of $120,000,000. If we were to build a rail- ^ way with a grade of 24 or 26 feet to the mile, it might cost that sum. But, as declared, the Government has no intention of building a railway with those small grades. They are all very well, even essential, for that portion which will carry the trade of the prairies from Red River to Thunder Bay. It was required it should be a first class road, with small grades and proper curvatures, the lightest grades we can, under the circumstances, obtain. But we do not say, for all that, we are to undertake at once all the sections of the road. Ws will proceed with them gradually. The connection with the railways in Quebec and Ontario will also come, when the railway is built from Lake Nipissing to the main line. Whilst I am on the subject, let me quote from the organ of the honorable gentleman opposite, the Globe, a paragraph about this eastern end of the railway : — "We now come to the Lake Superior section, which ia certainly a political necessity, but not required till the prairie lint; has been completed and connected with Tliunder Bay. It is, as we liave sliown, reasonable to suppose that at least half a million people will be on the plains when the Pacific Railway reaches the Rocky Mountains. Every family going in afterwards will increa.se the quantity of produce available for export. The population of the United States doubled itself in twenty- five years ; m several western territories the population has been doubled in ten years. The Canadian North-West will gain by immigration continually, and — as always happens where fertile land can be easily procured— births will be very numerous. By the time the Hue to the Rocky Mountains has been completed, it will be wise to push on the road around Lake Superior, because, before it can be built at a fair rate of speed, a large traffic will await itn opening. The Lakv^ Superior section, from the eastern terminus of the main Pacific to Fort William, will be 620 miles long, and, when completed, it will offer to the traffic of the Canadian and to a large part of the Amtrican North-West, the shortest all-rail route to the seaboard. It is not needed till the prairies have been opened up by the line to the Rocky Mountains. After that has been built, it may be safely completed as a commercial road, one that will pay better year by year, and will ultimately be u very valuable property.'' rho ■ , * Jw K;-:>i-fv >-; . U i:-,;- ..•'.•.:•!!;■{;• .j; :fi ■; J, That is the opinion of the Globe newspapec, and I have no doubt that, at all events, a large majority of the honorable gentlemen opposite will not repudiate this article. The honorable member for West Durham has attacked the figures quoted by my honorable friend the Minister of Rail- ways, giving the cost of the railway from Thunder Bay to Burrard Inlet. The honorable gentleman has made his calculations ; it was a new role for him to play, being a lawyer, and we have very seldom seen him plunged so deeply into figures as he was this evening. He thought that as he had not handled figures for some time he would make free use of them on this occa- sion. So when he was making his calculations as to the cost of the railway, he thought he might as well as not double the cost estimated by Mr. Flem- ing. The Minister of Railways stated yesterday that the first portion of the road from Fort William to Selkirk would cost $[7,000,000 ; from Selkirk to Jasper Valley, $13,000,000 ; From Jasper Valley to Fort Moody, including equipments and engineering, 830,000,000, say $60,000,000 altogether. Add >t-4'>' •Mv'i ■^jrv^t:-^ /(n- 44 ^ ut to this the cost of preliminary surveys, explorations, etc., $4,8(' 9,000, it would make a total of $64,869,000. Add to this a section of the Pacific Railway from Nipi.ssing to Fort William, $24,000,000, if the cost is $40,000 a mile ; but if the cost is $30,000 per mile — as it is more probable to be — -j » it would amount to only $18,000,000, which, added to the $64,000,000, would make a grand total of $82,869,000. The honorable gentleman has tried to convince the House that these figures have been put together for the purpose of the moment, and that they had no basis, that we could not show that they were the results of careful examination and calculation, such as an engineer should place before the head of his departrhent. Under these circumstances, I may be allovved to give the House the data upon which the Chief Engineer has based those figures. It is proper that the House should know that these figures have not simply been i)ut together to show that the railway will cost $64,000,000 plus the Nipissing and Fort William portion of the road, making altogether $88,000,000. The Chief Engineer has furnished the data of his calculations, which I will read to the House: — , , , ./ T 7 / . ' ; ' ■ "■■ "Ottawa, April 1*5,1880. " To Ike Hon, S\r Charltii Tapper, K.C.M.G.^ Minister 0/ Railways and Canals: — : . <.li . '■, ,'i.\ " ESTIMATE OF CO.ST, CANADIA.N PACIFIC RAILWAY. " Sis, — I have the honor to submit the following estimate of the probable expen- diture necessary to place the Canadian Pacific Railway in operation from Lake Supe- rior to Port Moody. I understand the policy of the Government with respect to the railway to be : — " 1. 'J'o construct the section between Lake Superior and Red River, with the limited gradients and curves set forth in my report, laid before Parliament, so as to secure cheap transportation, and to provide, by the time the railway shall be ready for opening, an equijiment of rolling stock and general accommodation sufficient for the traffic to be then looked for. " 2. To proceed with the work west of Red Ri- 1 by constructing 200 miles of the route recently (ifitablished. The roadway to be of the character defined by the 48th contract and the tenders for the 6Gtli contract recently received. " To proceed with the construction of 125 miles in British Columbia, under the COtl<, 61st, 62nd and G3rd contracts. The expenditure on the 125 miles to be lim- ited, it. accordance with the provisions of the contract and the views set forth in my njport of 22nd November last. " To proceed gradually with the intervening distance. To delay placing addi- tional sections under contract in British Columbia nntil the 125 miles are com- pleted or well advanced, thus preventing any undue increase in the price of labor. " To ( arry construction westward from Manitoba across the prairie region only as settlement advances. %^4 <' In my report of last year, I placed the cost of the section between Lake Supe- " • ior and Red River at $18,000,000. Since that date, the steps taken to keep down expenditure on the 185 miles l)etween English River and Keewatin, have been so far «iicces> rail- tion es of the lot go to^ ilding up' lands we luts from ;o British lat three It Winni- informed ed in the lit a small ly honor- avagant." half that an is still d he puts but to go 3t wish to d that he How- year and iinstances y a larger n 40 influx than any previous year, but he will not allow us to have any more after ; they must all go to the United States. ' " '■ '; ' * Mr. Blake — The honorable gentleman is misrepresenting what I said. Mr. Lan(;kvin— The inference to be drawn from what the honorable gentleman said was certainly that which 1 have staicd. Why, if we are to have emigrants coming this year, snould we not have them next year and the year ai.er, and so forth? The same reason that will cause them to come this year and next year, will cause them to come the following years also. Surely there is no reason to prevent thom coming. The peculiar cirsumstances are such that these people must emigrate from the eld coun- tries if they want to live, which in Canada offers exceptional attractions for all classes. We know that we had to vote a large sum of money the other day — and we did it willingly, cheerfully, and with the greatest pleasure; and we only regret that our means would not allow us to double or treble the amount — to feed a portion of the people who form the population of the British Isles. A portion of that people will emigrate and come out here, as they did before ; their lands are too small in extent, and they know if they come over the Atlantic there are homes for them in the jirairies of the west, on British soil. They know they will find free land and that they can purchase more, and that they will not find foreign institutions ; they will find free institutions, and here they will find home rule, of which we have heard so much. Here they will find tl institutions they have dreamt of; here in Canada they will find their compatriots ; they will find them in every station of life ; they will find them on the Bench, in Parliament, in the Local Legislatures ; they will find them at the Bar, in all the liberal avocations ; they will find them among the merchants, and they will find them among the most wealthy and influential people in the country ; amongst all these, Irishmen are found taking a prominent position, and well treated, on an equal footing with all of us. We are always willing to re- ceive them, and, if I speak for my own Province, I would say that when, at a certain period, a large number of these poor emigrants were obliged to come to this country — and many of them lost their lives by the plague or other disasters — their children were not left there unassisted, unclothed, unfed, uncared for ; they were received by my own countrymen in the Province of Quebec ; they were taken care of, and we now find numbers of them in the best positions in this country. They were not of our own blood . they were not of our own nationality, but they were human beings, and we received them in our houses, we received them as our children. Yes, Mr. Speaker, Irishmen will find here a home, they will find peace here, and contentment, and honorable gentlemen need not be afraid, as the honorable, member for West Durham insinuated, that they will not come because they will be under the same British flag, because they will be ur.der the same rule as in Ireland. They know better than that ; they ku;y^v that they are as free in Canada, under the British flag, as they would be in the Urfited States, under the Stars and Stripes. Ask Irishmen in the United States, ask Englishmen who have gone there, whether we do not have insti- tutions in Canada as good, as free, as independent, as the United States. We have freedom here, Mr. Speaker, perfect freedom, but no license. The honorable gentleman has also stated that the honorable the First Minister 50 had no right to expect from these emigrants settling in the North-West any large contribution to the revenue for many years. And v^hat reasons does he give us ? He says they will have to build a house and a barn ; they will have to buy cattle and horses and agricultural im])lements ; they will have to maintain themselves and their families ; they will have to provide clothing and food ; and the who' i of these, he says, with hard cash. The honorable gentleman tries to prevent emigrants — I do nor know why — from coming here ; he says to them ; " Do not come here in this country, you will have to pay for everything you require with hard cash." Well, Sir, I do not know v.-ith what they pay for the same articles, horses, cattle, ipiplements, clothing, food, and so on, in the United States if it is not with hard cash. They surely do not give thern these horses, cattle, implen.ents, food and clothing for nothing in the United States. Have they not to. pay for all these things there, as well as here, with hard cash? This is a very argunuent to use; it is not worthy of the honorable member for West Durham. I am surj^rised that he should attach so much importance to it. But he gives the emigrant another reason aga'nst coming here. He says : — " You will have to smuggle, and you will smuggle ; you will smuggle a great deal." That is the accusation he brings against the people coming from Er>gland ; tJiat is the accusation he brings against these Irishmen, and against Scotchmen and Englishmen, and French- Canadians. Those are his words : — " He will smuggle as much as he '"''.n, and I expect he will smuggle a good deal ;" and he gives that as a reason why we will have no revenue from that source. I think for my part the Hon. the Minister of Finance will call upon the Hon. the Minister of Customs to take care that the omuggling does not go on in thac direction. The honorable gentleman continues and speaks of the value of real estate. He; says it has sunk everywhere, except that the honorable member for Vancouver claimed differently for British Columbia. But the value of real estate has not gone down by the policy of this Government. If real estate did go down very low ; if it sank and sank, while the honorable gentlemen were in power ; it is well known that since the National Policy has been inaugurated, real estate has been improving ; it has gone up from one end of the country to the other ; and the honorable gentlemen, speaking of banks and bank stocks, said that a number of banks had disappeared. Let him look at and compare the list of stocks two and a half years ago with the list to-day, and he will see an immense difference this year, and last year, in the value of stock. He is determined to have nothing good in this country ; he is determined to see, and show, nothing but ruin and decay. It is the old cry ; his friends, when he was quite young, spoke of the same ruin and decay ; and so it is going on^ and v/ill go on from generation to generation ; and I have no doubt this same cry will be repeated at appropriate intervals, by the children of these gentlemen in ten, and fifteen, and twenty, and thirty years hence. As long as they cannot sit on these Benches, so long as they are not in power, everything ceases to be bright, everything is dark ; no emigration can come. Mr. Blake — That is just what you said at the last election. Mr. Langevin — The honorable gentleman says, that is what wo said at the last election. We had i'ood cause at that time. The honorable 61 inaugurated a wise policy the honorable gentleman The country understood gentlemen opposite had brought the country to the last point possible; we had been brought to the eve of a n itional l)ankruptcy, by the financial policy of gentlemen on the other side; the country was in a most deplorable <;ondition ; people were leaving it at every point ; the revenue had fallen off; deficit after deficit had rolled up, and we had to call upon the people and point out the cause of this state of things. That l^rought about a change, and having been put Iji power by the i^eople, we for inipioving the condition of i:he country, and must see that we have been successful enough. us, and they h..'.'e brought U3 here to promote the prosperity of the country, and we have to a great extent succeeded already, though we may expect to do more during the next year. In conclusion, I only wish to say that the l)resent occasion is, in my opinion, the only opportunity that this Parliament has had of deciding on this great question decisively. This is the first time that we have been met, face to face, with the important question, whether or not we are to continue to have Confederation, for which we have labored year after year to bring about, whether that great work is to last or not ? It is for honorable gentlemen to decide, and I appeal to the honorable member for Lambton —he must be in favour of Confederation — as his honorable friend, who, I am sorry to know, is in a very precarious state of health. Let us vote this amendment down. Do not let us destroy Confederation ; it is a great, a good work, a work by which the institutions of England are to be made permanent on this continent ; it is a work to secure freedom for our children for all time to come, to build a great Empire on this continent. We shall not, perhaps, see it fully peopled ; but the time will come, if we look to the country instead of to ourselves ; if we look to the country instead of to these benches. Honorable gentlemen should not forget that at the period of this Confederation being ])rought about, these Provinces were small dependencies of England ; they were scattered, and far asunder ; the leading men of each Province did not know the leading men of the other Provinces ; they had no common intercourse ; they did not know dieir ssparate institutions ; they were separated and isolated from each other as much as we are separated from Ireland or CI ina ; but to-day we are a united Dominion ; we are a great country, a powerful country, if we be oaly true to ourselves. We are not very numerous — a little over 4,000,000. But when the United States separated from England they were only 4,000,- 000 ; to-day they are 40,000,000 of people, perhaps 45,000,000 ; and, Mr, Speaker, they have not a better country than ours ; they had no better pros[)ects and advantages than we have ; they have had bloody wars ; we have had no bloody wars ; they had a bloody war to bring about their independence, and they had another bloody var aftervvards ; they had a fratricidal war, which was a most bloody war. We have had no such bloor^y wars ; England has recognized our rights, has recognized the true policy of making this country a free country, and we are so free that we have not a single British soldier, we have not a soldiei of the British aimy amongst us, with the exception of a small number at Halifax, left to assist in the guardianship of that coast. We are left in the free exercise of our rights, and every man is loyal to the Empire and to our Queen, because we know that we are protected in case of war, protected on the seas, and pro- tected, not only in this country, but abroad ; for every citizen that goes ^' \ 52 abroad is protected by the flag of England. Mr. Speaker, once more , do not let us destroy Confederation ; do not let us destroy the charter of our liberties; let us be true to ourselves, and continue to progress as we have been since the first day of Confederation ; let us continue to be con- tented and happy. If we begin by passing this amendment, we are, in the words of the honorable member for West Durham, saying to British Colum- . bia, " You may go ; you are not reasonable." It would be unreasonable for rs to tell British Columbia to go. She has been patient and reasonable. She will "'ait until the good times come, when the means of the country will albw us to build the road with vigour. We will build that railway yer r by year, and shortly we will have a road from the Atlantic to the Pacific ; and most likely, on that day, we will, I hope, find the honorable members tor Lambton and West Durham in a first-class car going to see their friends in British Columbia ; and at that period they will regret having attempted to destroy the future of Canada, by running down their country and eulogizing the United States of America. . iV i' I .11 ' ' f.' ( \ I i t ''If ! i,- !>,';,- j:V(. Jfil ';> i y^'i '<';'«; '.t '^ J .- ' ' - '1 -f .'• U^ V^ SPEECH OF J. B. PLUMB, ESQ,, M.P. rt-i,' M Mr. Plujib — The attention of the House and country has been pain- fully drawn, within the last four or five days, to the important discussion proceeding in this House. We were prepared for a very able review of the fiscal history and policy of the country by die notice given by the member for West Durham, and the expectations of the House and public have been in some degree justified by die elaborate manner in which that honorable gentleman has treated the great questions reviewed by him. He has made a speech which must be regarded, in connection with that of the member for Lambton, as \\\^ proiiunciamcjito of the fragment of the party which they lead and represent. The member for W^est Durham has been distinguished by his erratic course. I .c first joined the administration of the member for Lambton, being for a time a Minister without a i)ortfolio. Then the honor- able gentleman quitted the Government, and re-entered it, remaining till it was overthrown. Mr. Blake — No. Mr. Plumb — He continued to be a member of the late Government at Icr.-t until the last session in which it was dominant was over — an erratic and uncertain co-adjutor, first without portfolio, then after sitting one session on the back benches he re-entered it in succession to Mr. Fournier as Minis- ter c^ Justice, then again, taking the chair left vacant by his colleague, Mr. Cauchon, he gave up the department of justice to another colleague, Mr. La- flamme. The honorable gentleman went in and out and shuffled about so many times that it is difficult to follow his movcnents. His last utterance on a jjuijlic i)laLform dui ing the election campaign was at Teeswater, in his then constituency of South Bruce, when the country was anxiously waiting to hear him defend the Administuition of which he was a member. His fnends were greatly disappointed. He scarcely referred to the issues of the campaign so far as they turned upon the acts of ' s Government, and his halfhearted support of his associates was their implied condemnation. He did not fail, however, to deal most minutely with matters connected with his own depariment of Justice, claiming great credit for having achieved without difficulty what his predecessor (Sir John Mac- donald) had failed to accomi)Iish — for having cleared up accumulations of business left on his hands, I infer, by Messrs. Dorionand Fournier, who had gone to their reward on the Iknch wliere electors cease from troubling, for having desi)atched promptly and with ease the ever increasing business of the Department, and yet at the following session the honorable gentleman did not hesitate to supi)ort a measure of his Government for the division of the Department, and the new appointment of an Attorney-General at a salary of $7,000 a year, on the ground that the labour was too heavy for one chief ofilcer. At the Teeswater meeting it was noted that the honorable g'entleman was very luiented by the States upon the borders of Manitoba and southward, including Texas, that owing to the difficulty I transport of supplies, absence of markets, isolation and many other objections with which we have been made familiar, emigrants will not be induced to take up our lands, that the climate is inhospitable, and last and worst, that the system adopted by the Government is calculated to deter actual settlers and throw the lands into the hands of speculators. It is claimed by the honorable gentlemen opposite that the experience of the Western States confirms their previsions. I think they are greatly mistaken. We have seen that the great railway which extends from the Missouri to the Pacific Ocean ha.s been built by private enterprise. Notwithstanding the enormous sums spent upon it, there has never been a day in which the bonds of the California Central Railway have been below par, even in the greatest period of depression. We are told now that we must halt after having expended millions on our Pacific Railway, after having fully committed our- selves and the country to the great enterprise, although we believe we are fully in accord with public sentiment in the course we are pursuing,*and that the country reposes full confidence in the wisdom and prudence of our leaders in respect to the rate at which the work shall proceed, although we feel assured that the task can be accomplished widiout permanently or pre- sently increasing the public burthens. My honorable friend from West Durham presents his Budget to the House, containing a dismal, but, I fear, not a candid array of statistics, and demands that we shall abandon a scheme which the Ciovernment of which he was a member, equally with that which I sujjport, are bound to fulfil. Nothing can be imagined which would be more detrimental to the interests of this country than the acceptance of his proposition. I under- take to say that, if the policy he urges were adopted, our securities in the English market would immediately fall, and continue to decline in price. To adopt that policy Avould be a confession of judgment, and we should soon see the effects of it. The honorable gentleman is trifling with the best interests of this country when he proposes to go back upon our word in re- gard to that great undertaking. I have never advocated going on with it in such a Avay as to i)ress unduly upon the taxi)ayers of this country. But the first act of the honorable gentleman and his friends, when they came in- to office, was to increase the taxation by a sum declared by the late Finance 59 Minister to be $3,000,000. It is useless for them to say it was because there were other obligations resting on the country than that of building the Pacific Railway which were to be thus {provided for. It can be shown that money raised under the tariff of 1874 was spent in the abortive Pacific Rail- way schemes of the late Ciovernment, contrary to the solemn pledges of Parliament. 1 was surprised at the disingenuousness of the manner in which the honorable member for West Durham brought before the House the charge — so often repeated and never substantiated — that there was something culpable in the increase of the expenditure of ten millions in 1874, as compared with 1867. ^ took the i)ains to examine every item of the increased expenditure ; I produced them here, and challenged our friends opposite, to show where there had been an increase in any one of them which was not necessary and justifiable. 1 pointed out that there had been no objection made to them at the time by any member of the then opposition. I asserted, without contradiction, that nearly a million of dollars of the expenditure, properly chargeable to 1875, was fraudulently thrown upon that of 1874. The honorable gentleman instituted a compari- son between the expenditures of 1871 and 1874. Mr. Blake — I made no such comparison. Mr. Plumb — My honorable friend will not interrupt me, because I claim the same privilege that he did. I say fraudulently, in a political sense ; and I say that the honorable gentleman can easily be shown that the growth of the country — her recognized obligations and her necessary duties, to say nothing of her best policy — absolutely forbids and makes it imjjossible for her to go back to the scale of expenditure of 187 1, which he urges, as one that should be adopted. And I defy my honorable friend to take up item by item of the increased expenditure, which he so strongly condemns, and shew a single instance, up to 1872, to which there was any objection made at all. In the spring of 1873, I acknowledge that the hon- oiable member for Centre Huron (Sir Richard Cartwright) did make a fee- ble criticism of the budget of my honorable friend then, and now the Finance Minister. He had previously confined his financial criticisms to a few fee- ble utterances upon the militia estimates. In 1872, it will be remembered, the Globe newspaper denounced that eminent financier as a mixer and mud- dler of figures, and violently opposed his election ; but my honorable friend from West Durham accepted him as a colleague holding the Portfolio of Finance in 1873 ; and is trom that time responsible for every act which he i'anctioned by remaining in office. Between 1867 and 1874, every item of expenditure had been made necessary by circumstances and obligations connected with the union of the Provinces and the extension of our terri- tory ; and I defy the honorable gentleman to point to a single item of ex- penditure which has not been accepted and continued by the Administration which succeeded the Government overthrown in 1873. They were entirely untrammelled when they came into power — and I would ask, Why did they not cut off that expenditure ; why did they not reduce that expenditure ; why did they not fulfil their loud-mouthed promises of economy and re- trenchment ? We may admit, for argument's sake, that they were bound by the Pacific Railway agreements with British Columbia, although my honorable friend argues that they were not. But, why did 60 iil they go on with that expenditure, as a Government work, when, as is asserted on the other side of the House, our scheme had failed? Why did they make the obhgations larger year by year? Why did they at tlie outset throw away immense sums on useless telegraph lines, long before the railway line, to which they were to be an adjunct, had been located or even surveyed? I defy my honorable friend from West Durham to answer those ciuestions satisfactorily. 1 would like my honorable friend to explain whether he and his colleagues in one single instance reduced, without injury to the country, one single item of the expenditure whicli they assert had been so reckless, so extravagant, and so corrujH. When those honorable gentlemen came into power, they found an overflowing treasury. They found that there had been a large surj)lus year by year, notwithstanding a heavy remission of taxe-*, in taking off the duty on tea and coffee, dr.ing the Administration that held power from the time of Confederation till 1873. During thai time over $10,000,000, out of the surplus revenues, had been spent in i)ublic works, properly chargeable to capital account : and there was no deficit impending when they took the keys of the public chest. There could not have been a deficit in that year or the next. U])on meet- ing, in the spring of 1873, the Parliament, w.-ch had been elected the previous summer, my honorable friend (Sir Leonard Tilley), then as now the Finance Minister, stated that engagements which had been and would be entered into would probably involve an ultimate necessity for increased taxation. He said that the revenue for the coming year would be sufficient for all i)urposes, and leave a moderate surplus, but that he would i)robably find it necessary to deal with the Tariff at the next session, and that when he did so he should keep in view the protection of our home industries, and j^romote the interests of this country in that direction as far as practicable. He was succeeded by the Hon. the ex-Finance Minister (Sir Richard Cart- wright), who, it is well known, commenced his career by denouncing his predecessors in the most violent terms, by grossly overstating and misstating the extent and character of the obligations under which they had placed the country. He roundly asserted th'\t the Pacific Railway they had undertaken to construct would cost the councry more than $150,000,000 ; that they left above 131 millions to provide for ; that it would create a greater public debt, in proportion to our resources and population, than the national debt of England ; and that they had left upon him 131 millions of obligations which, poor man, he had to provide for— but he added that he was fully equal to the task. He i)ainted every- thing in the blackest colours, he stated that the country had been ruined by the extravagance of the Ministry that had just then retired. The honor- able gentleman then increased, or permitted the increase, of the public expenditure in every possible form. He i)iled deficit on deficit, he made no provision for those deficits, except a notable suggestion that the yearly contributions to Sinking Fund should not be charged against the yearly exi)enditure on income account, and wlien he went out of ofiice, the neces- sity devolved on my honorable friend of providing for them. 1 have not heard my honorable friend from West Durham, during the course of his long and oliaustive oration, touch at all upon any plan which he would have i)ro- posed to bring forward to relieve the country from the burdens which had been 61 hcing ling ich ific more that and left ovide ;very- lined thrown upon it by the gentlemen with wliom he has been associated for five years. The honorable gentleman is a special pleader. He takes his pleas from his brief with great ingenuity, energy and eloquence, but after all it is nothing but special i)leading. Every one who listened to the honorable gentleman during the whole of his oration, felt that he was endeavoring to preseiu from his point of view, arguments, not as a statesman, not as the rising hope of a great party, to whom the young men of Canada at one time looked for better things, but as a pleader of a special case, for a special [jurpose, which every man who listened to him felt was nothing more nor less than the word of a trained advocate, and an ingenious hair-splitting counsel. The speech of the honorable gentleman gives us the ralson d'etre of his again coming in the flesh among men, and claiming to take a part in the affairs which he affected to have done with forever. Less than a year ago he described himself as a ghost revisiting the earth whose interests he had cea.sed to interfere with. But the honorable gentleman soon tired uf playing the role of a wandering spirit cut off from his familiar associations and am- bitions, and he comes, like Banquo, with twenty mortal S])eerhes in his mouth, to push his late leader from his stool and usurp his place. I'he honorable gentleman's temj^er is too excitable, and his nature is too imperious and arbitrary, and his organization is too nervous to bear the brunt and stress which must be borne by a i)arty leader, especially the leader of a forlorn hope, disorganized and demoralized like that which now confronts us and is not at unity with itself. The honorable gentleman. could not refrain from a malignant attack upon the Sister Provinces in his denunciation of the policy by which they have been misled into Confederation. Acsording to him each one has been guilty of a lapse of virtue which is little better than shameless prostitution. Nova Scotia was secretly bribed, and then, half reluctant, forced into consent. A disgraceful bargain seduced Quebec. New Brunswick sold her wares in the market, and pocketed the price of her dishonour. Prince Edward Island yielded to the tempter and fell. Even weak Manitoba made some show of resistance, which was but coyness, and became an easy, if not a willing victim, but the crowning shame was the foul bargain with British Columbia, which was made, according to the honorable gentleman, "on the iirstclav of April, 1 87 1, "fitdng day for fitting deed." Do we understand tbe honon l>!e gentleman, that he considers the bargains, if such they are, of a nature il.at they should now be repudiated, or is he willing to abide by a wrong, provided he can rule the destinies of a Union which he so eloquently denounces. To go back to 1 87 1 would be to cast off British Columbia and Prince Edward Island, and disfranchise Manitoba and the Northwest. Is it part of the hon. gentleman's programme, one of the issues of his new departure, to un- twine the bonds that unite the Provinces ? The studied effort to sow dis- content among them would seem like it, but it is impossible to measure the depth or height of the honorable gentleman's arguments. As he said at Aurora, he is always fond of making disturbirig speeches, and he ii also always " ill at ease," and " languishes for the purple mists" of chimeras Avhich every one but a vague political dreamer knows to be unsubstantial and unattainable. His gloomy utterances might have found some response when our community were bowed down by the disasters through which we were passing three or four years ago, and the bravest held his breath while the 62 :3l financial tornado and hurricane was at its height, but now he is as one born out of (hic time. There is a hopeful feehng, a spirit of enterprise abroad, and the instincts o( a young, energetic country are entirely anta- gonistic to his sepulchral doctrines. The honorable gentleman from Lamblon (Mr. Mackenzie) has just , told us that when he came into power, he found that the negocia. tions of Sir Hugh Allan and his co-Directors, in respect to obtain- ing means for building the Pacific Railway under the charter that they held, had wholly failed, but that his Government, recognized that they were the trustees of the preceding Government and of the i)eople, in so far as the agreement to construct the road was concerned. 'I'hey were, however, free from the trammels of any previous legislation in respect to the manner of constructing the road, and they chose to undertake it as Government work. My honorable friend is never tired of repeating, both here and elsewhere, that when he brought down the Pacific Railway resolutions in 1874, they were passed without an amendment having been proposed, without the change, as he said on one occasion, " of the dotting of an ' i ' or the crossing of a ' t.' " The honorable gentleman was then backed by an enormous, unreasoning, over-bearing, mechanical majority. VVhen the honorable gentleman brought down his resolutions, they were rushed through at a late hour. At three o'clock in the morning the debate was choked off ruthlessly, and there are gentlemen now present sitting in this House to-day who know that when the honorable gentleman stated that no amendment was offered to those resolutions, either his memory was treacherous or he intentionally stated that which was not the case. The honorable gentleman, if he will look at the votes and proceedings of that day — I have them here — will find there were three amendments proposed, one by the honorable member for Frontenac and two by the honorable member for Vancouver. They were voted down, of course, by the large majority that sat behind the hon'-rable gendeman, ready at all times to submit to his dictimi. The ht jrable gentleman, in the cour.se of the next session — early in 1875, — laid on the table of the House two Pacific Railway contracts: One for No. 13, being for grading .and bridging the then contemplated line from Fort William Town Plot to Shebandowan westward, 45 miles, for $406,904 ; one for section 14, from Selkirk, on Red River, to Cross Lake eastward, 77 miles, for $402,950. In the simimer of 1876 he entered into contract No. 25 for section 25, from Sunshine Creek, where No. 13 was terminated, to English River, 80 mi^es, and for ballasting and track-laying from Fort William to English River, 1121^ miles, for $1,037,061 ; and in January, 1877, for No. 15, from Cross i-ake to Kewatin, 38_^ miles, including ballasting and track-laying of No. 14 and No. 15, for $1,594,486. When asking the House to sanction the contracts for sections 13 and 14, he at the same time asked authority to let section 15, from Cross Lake to Kewatin, and some discussion arose between the honorable gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) and the honorable the present Minister of Railways (Sir Charles Tupper), who said : " The statement made by the Premier (Mr. Mackenzie) afforded one ■*' of the most apt and forcible illustrations of the unwisdom of undertaking •" to let contracts without any such survey as would put contractors in a 63 one born .•ntcrprise X'ly anta- has just negocia. [) obtain- that they they were far as the 'ever, free nanner of lent work. elsewhere, in icS74, i, without of an ' i ' in backed majority, they were the debate L sitting in nan stated emory was :ase. The igs of that proposed, honorable ' the large times to course of le House or grading am Town one for 77 miles, •^o. 25 for to English William to 77, for No. asting and asking the the same and some enzie) and pper), who forded one ndertaking actors in a •*' position to know anything like the amount of work recjuircd to be per- "•formed." Mr. Mackenzie said, in reply: " It so happened that a most *' elaborate survey had been madeot this section. It would be impossible to " have a more careful survey or closer examination than had been made in " these 37 miles. There had been no such survey on the Intercolonial " 'I'he honorable gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) now makes the disingenuous state- ment that he let the contnicls \\\)o\\ the surveys which had been made by his predecessors, but he knows perfectly well that the line was not fixed upon to Kaministiqua in i)reference to the Nepigon until after he came to power, therefore there could have been no close survey previously of the line which he adopted. The Fort William Town Plot had not previously been a make-weight in determining the terminus. Mr. Fleming has .stated in his evidence before a Committee investigating the letting of the contracts, that when the line from Fort William to Shebandowan was put under con- tract they did not know where they were going, and it turned out, in fact, that they did not go to Shebandowan at all, and we have in evidence taken before that committee, of which the honorable gentleman was a member, that it was found impossible to get a practicable line to She- bandowan. When the contracts were let, Mr. Fleming, if he was a party to them at all, was acting under the direction of the honorable gentleman ; and I must say that 1 never heard anything on the floor of this House more unfair and ungenerous in its character than an attack the honorable gentle- man made on his chief engineer to-day, in the desperate hope of screening himself. It was in evidence that the contracts were let without the most elementary knowledge of the line ; that they were let upon bills of work containing specific quantities, which were merely guess work, not ascer- tained by actual survey, but made up here in Ottawa ; that no survey what- ever had been made, not even a trial line, on Section 1 4 ; that Section 1 3 liad been let wl n the engineers did not even know where the line was to run ; that the elaborate and exhaustive survey of Section 1 5 was a line run by eye and compass only, by Mr. Carre, who says that no mortal man — upon the data he had thus obta.ned, the only data that the quantities were based ujwn — could have given an idea of the cost. Mr. Fleming says that Section 13 Avas not thoroughly surveyed before letting; that " it was done hurriedly," and that he " represented to the Minister that the quantities given had no pretensions to accuracy as to the final cost of the line, and were simply a means of comparing tenders." When the work was let, he says, *' we didn't know where we were going to." The whole thing, he tells us, was done hurriedly in the oftice at headquarters, simply upon the rough profile furnished by the Engineer in charge. The men who were taken up by the contractors to work on Section 13 were kept for some time idle, while the engineers were locating the line ; and the con- tractors were paid by the Government for the lost time. The engineers arrived on Section 14 to make the survey, when the contractors, who had taken the work, went up to commence operations. As to Section 15 we have seen that the survey was simply a trial line, and it turns out that the sur- veys of Section 25 were in no better state for letting contracts. The results are that the quantities in some cases are enormously increased, and in others suspiciously reduced ; that, in all cases, the cost of the four Sections, which was emphatically stated by the honorable gentleman to be $24,500 a 64 ;■ i mite, or half that of the Intercolonial, is so enormously increased that it will reach $_, o a mile ; that that increase took place under the honor- able gentleman's Administiation, and must have been, or ought to have been, known to him when he repeated his statement as to the cost ; and it must have been known to him that he had no authority from Mr. Fleming to make such a statement upon the hyi)Othetical amomits of the contracts. These remarks apply with directness to sections 13, 14 and 25, As to sec- tion 15, the honorable gentlem.an claimed that elaborate and exhaustive sur- veys had been made, but the honorabk gentleman must have had, or ought to have had, sonn; evidence of those surveys before he made the positive statements in the Hoi,", in 1875. Where is the record? We have seen that nothing can be more fnllacious. Iinj)ortant engagements, committing the country to tennini at Fort William and at Selkirk, the former involving a flagrant job and the latter at least a costly blunder that has cost the country, as we are told by Mr.- Carre, the Division Engineer, $360,000 from faalc of location alone, and contracts hurriedly let on imaginary quantities, were made by the honorable member for I.an.btc'i, who was the responsible Minister, and no one who knows the honorable gentleman will believe for a moment that he was not wholly responsible for all those lettings, and that he was not or ought not to have been fully cognizant of the state of the surveys upon a line that he had himself fixed upon. It is of no avail whatever for that honor- able gentleman to attack his chief engineer for errors or worse for which I believe the country will justly hold him entirely responsible. In contract 13, taken at $406,494, but part of the work was done, but in that the ratio of cost was considerably exceeded. Contract 14 was for $402,950 ; the work executed under it amounted to $722,264. Contract 25 was for $1,037,061 ; the wc>rk executed under it amounted to $1,384,639. Con- tract 15 was for $1,594,085; the estimated cost up to January, 1879, ^^'^^ $2,525,000. In all these cases certain quantities stated on the contracts were enormously increased. In contract 25, for instance, the earth excavation at ;^^ cents a yard was increased from one million to one million nine hundred and fifty thousand cubic yards. In contract 15 the earth excavation was increased from 80,000 yards at 37 cents a yard to one mil- lion six hundred and fifty-seven thousand yards, and it is said that there will be a further increase of one million three hundred thousand yards. There was a radical change in the plan of executing section 15, dispensing with trestle work and substituting rock and earth. This change took place in the summer of 1878. An attempt was made to lead the Committee to belie^'e that the change was not made upon Mr. Rowan's return from Ottawa at that time, but the evidence in ths Committees of the House and Senate prove otherwise. There had been three sets of tenders prepared and advertised for on Sec- tion 15. The final advertisement was made for September, 1876. The plan was to construct tl.e fillings of the hollows with trestle-work — to hnve no errth-work except the stripping of the rocks. Strange to say, this would involve the use upon the line of a stretch of nearly fifteen miles of timber of a size that the country could not furnish. When the lettings were rnade, and, in fact, when the tenders were advertised for, it wiil be found 65 was on Sec- The Drk — to ay, this niles of 2s were found that Mr. Fleming was not in Canada. Mr. Marcus Smith, Acting Chief Engineer, was in ihe West, and he telegraphed the hon. member for Lamb- ton from Winnipeg, after the bids were opened, if the contract had not been le^ to wait till his return. 'I'his, however, did not suit the hon gen- tleman. The tenders were received — twenty-one of them — that of A. P.' Macdonald (S: Co., for $1,443,175, was the lowest. They were notified to undertake the work, and arrangements were made by them for executing the contract and furnishing the security ; but they heard, while their arrange- ments were pending, that two years' extension of time for finishing contract 14 had been given. Their contract included laying track over that section, and its completion within the time first agreed on was necessary in order to enable Macdonald & Co. lo get in supplies to Section 15. The con- tractors for Section 14 were Sifton, Ward & Co., of Petrolia — staunch friends of the hon. gentleman — and 1 havo good reason to believe that the extension was made when it was found that the bid of A. P. Macdonald & Co. was the successful one. Mr. Mackenzie — No such thing. Mr, Plumb — 1 do not accept the hon. gentleman's ** no such thing," for I rather think that, if the matter came to the test, that I Could prove it. ', Mr. Mackenzie — Well, prove it. Mr. Plumb — Messrs. A. P. Macdonald & Co. contracted under the impression that the Government would hold Sifton, Ward & Co. to the com.pletion of the contract within the specified time. They wrote to the Department stating what they had heard, and said that the prices at which they had tendered were based upon thesu})position that Sifton, Ward& Co.'s contract would be finished in time to enable Macdonald & Co. to lay the track over Section 14 by August, 1877. They conclude by asking if such an extensit !i had been granted, and say : " It would be imprudent for us to " enter into the contract unless we were put in possession of the advan-- " tages which the specifications and forms of tender led us to believe and " base our calculations upon." What was the answer to that reasonable request ? We must bear in mind that this tender of A. P. Macdonald & Co. was that of a perfectly responsible firm, whose contract anybody, acting in his own private interest or having the public interest solely at heart, would have bten anxious to secure. The Government gave no satisfactory explanation whatever. Mr. Braun briefly requests them to execute the contract immediattly. Messrs.. A. P. Macdonald c\: Co. reply : — Montreal, 16th Octolier, 18 76. Sir. — In reply to yom- coniinuDication of tho 14th instiuit, w; brg to stute that, we caiiiiot enttr into contract for Sections 14 and 15 (Jana ... . ..V : M,, 30th December, 1876. •( Jfcmorandum.) Tlie uiulersigni'd reports that tenders having been invited for construction of Section No. 15, Canadian Pacific Railway, twenty-one have been rtceivt.d at schedule rates, whicli, when e.vtended, are found to vary between $1,44,'V175 and $2,950,000, That the firm.s VtIiosc tenders are first and second lowest, respectively, Messrs. McDonald & Kane and Messrs. Martin ft Charlton, are unable to furnish the neces- sary security. 68 / I f 1 That the t! ird lowest tender is from Megsrs. Sutton & Thompson, of Brantford, amounting to $l,r)!)4,155 (one million five hundred and ninety-four thousand one hundred and fifty-five dollarK). That this firm are prepared to make the neccBsary five per cent, cash deposit, and propose to associate with themselves Mr. Joseph Whitehead, contractor, of Clinton, Ontario. The undersigned, therefore, recommends that the tender of Messrs. Sutton &; Thompson be accepted, and that they be allowed to associate Mr. Whitehead with themselves accordingly. Respectfully submitted. ■ ■ ■^^•' 'i ' •; > ' ' • ' ■ (Signed)^ A.MACKENZIE, '''■'■ ' '^'- i ' ' i: ^ Mim'ster Public Works. Thus it will be seen that on the day after Martin offered to put up the security, and three days after Charlton withdrew in such moving terms, the contract was awarded to Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, and, strange to say, the disinterested Mr. Whitehead consented to put a little more life into the Pacific Railway by becoming, first a partner nominally of that firm, and lastly by taking the whole wojk himself. It will be observed that the memorandum of Mr. Mackenzie, which I read a few moments ago as a reason for giving the contract to Sutton & Thompson, states that A. P. Macdonald & Co. and Martin & Charlton have been unable to furnish the necessary security. As to A. P. Macdonald & Co., we have seen that there was no lack of ability, but that they were apparently forced off in another way. There was no good ground whatever for this assertion as respected Martin & Charlton, for Mr. Martin, in his letter just quoted, distinctly pro- posed to furnish ample security, and protested against the contract being taken away from him. Every contractor has a right to make as good a bargain as he can, of course, and I do not intend in anything I have said or shall say, to make any charge against Mr. Whitehead, or to blame him in any way. In the tender of Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, the timber was taken at prices so low, and the quantity required was so enormous, that it would have been absolutely impossible to deliver it. It could not be had in the country, nor was it to be found nearer than the head waters of the Mississi})pi, and I say that the Minister of Public Works, when he adopted a radical change in the plan of construction of the section, which he seems to have decided upon just before the tenders were advertised for, and in the absence of his Chief Engineers, should have ascertained that the timber could be found in the neighborhood of the work, and I want the House and the country to understand that he was responsible for the letting, for the principle adopted in the plan of construction, and he does not pretend that it was decided upon when Mr. Fleming was m Canada, or that the letting was under his advice. Mr. Whitehead had not long been at work on his contract when Mr. Rowan, the resident Engineer, recommended that the work should be radically changed by substituting rock and earth embankment for trestle work. His letter recommending the change stated that the trestle work was perishable and liable to take fire. I suppose most men could have known, without a professional opinion, that wood was a substance that would decay in process of time and might perhaps take fire if exposed to ignition ; but Mr. Rowan was careful not to state that the trestle-work timber could not be obtained 69 in the country. Anyone could see the trestle-work plan was a dangerous and imprudent one. But I believe it suited some purpose of the hon. gentleman to have the letting made at a comparatively low figure, and he seems to liave acquiesced with commendable alacrity in the necessity of awarding the contract to bidders who were $140,000 higher than the low- est, and he did not at all object to Mr. Whitehead. It would not be far out of the record to say that when he let the contract on the timber plan he had no real expectation to have it fulfilled upon that plan. The timber was taken at ruinously low prices, the earth and rock at extravagantly high prices, and consequently when the timber was released, and earth and rock were substituted, the change was enormously in favor of the contractor. The quantity of loose rock at $1.75 a yard was exactly doubled. The solid lock at $2.75 was increased from 300,000 to 525,646 yards. We have seen that the modest little quantity of 80,000 yards of earth at 37 cents a yard — not so modest a little price — was increased to 1,657,000 yards, and we hear that 1,300,000 yards more is to be done. Mr. Fleming approved of the proposed change, and wrote a letter recommending it to the late First Minister. The latter, in his evidence before the Committee, says that he himself approved of it, but he did not see fit to recommend it to the Coun- cil ; but Mr. Rowan, the Engineer directing the work, left Ottawa under the full understanding — the full conviction, as he states in his own evidence — that that change was to be made : Mr. Fleming left for England the next day, after he had written an approval of Mr. Rowan's proposed ■change, and believed that his recommendation was approved of. Mr. Mackenzie states that he had constant communication with Mr. Marcus Smith, after Mr. Fleming's recommendation was made, prior to the departure of Mr. Smith for the Northwest, and discussed railway matters exhaustively with him. Strange to say, he never thought it worth while to speak of the proposed change of Section 15, one of the most important matters connec- ted with the whole subject. When Mr. Smith reached Winnipeg, he found that the work was proceeding on the changed plan, for which he disclaims, and, I think, justly disclaims responsibility. Mr. Rowan's evidence was not quite satisfactory, but I will not refer further to that. Mr. Fleming certainly, I must say in all fairness, cannot be held culpable for the laches of his chief, the late Minister of Public Works. Mr. Fleming's leaning towards work of a ■character, perhaps too expensive for the road bed required for the North- ^ •west, is well known. It is scarcely possible that he would have risked his •reputation in recommending so flimsy, and, in fact, so impossible a plan as that on which Section 15 was let, and no one can doubt for a moment, not only that the change he recommended was a proper one, if it was not an imperatively necessary one, but that the present Government had no alternative but to accept it. The mischief was in the inception. The late First Minister cannot throw the responsibility ■of that upon any one else, and he ought not to attempt on the floor of this House to place it upon one who, from his peculiar position, is not able to reply or to defend himself The fact is that no one seems to haVe been responsible. It seems intended that there shoulfl be some con- venient method by which the responsibility should be evaded, and it is <:owardly and shameful to say that the responsibility rests on Mr. Fleming. The honorable gentleman knows that Mr. Rowan's reports uijon the pro- I t i { il / 70 gress of the work after the change, were not made as promptly and regularly as they ought to have been. The contract was taken in such a way as to increase the estimated expenditure more than one million dollars, and the end is not yet. It was the same with the Georgian Bay Branch. As to the reckless rushing into a contract in uttef ignorance of the nature of the coun- try to be traversed, we have heard the honorable gentleman on the floor of this House to-night accuse the Government of having neglected to build the Georgian Bay branch, and of having been unfaithful to Quebec. The extraordinary contract with the late Mr. P'oster has been condemned from time to time, and in regard to it we have received no satisfactory explanation. That contract, too, was made for work upon a line which no engineer had ever seen. Althoiigh the honorable member for Lapibton has attempted to shirk all responsibility in respect to these contracts, I shall hold him responsible for them, and the country will also hold him responsible for them. I rt'])eat that the honorable gentleman ought to have known, if he did not know, that there were no surveys worthy the name when those contracts were let. The honorable gentleman stoutly asserts in the face of these facts that he was perfectly justified in going before the country and saying that he was building the line embraced in the four contracts for one-half the cost of the Intercolonial Railway. I knew the honorable gentleman was inaccurate in his estimates when he made them. It is too late for the honorable gentleman to attempt to throw the responsibility on others; it rests with him. The responsibility also rests on him of the hybrid system of navigation, the mixture of mud and water which he attempted to " utilize," to use his favorite word, between Port Savanne and Keewatin. If the honorable gentleman had succeeded in carrying out his scheme, he would have been able to transport over his portage, according to first tender, exactly five car-loads of grain per day, or 1,665 bushels, and if he had done so steadily from the opening until the close of navigation he would have carried 280,000 bushels, or about six. vessel loads. If he had found for it employment from the end of the harvest till the close of navigation, about eighty thousand bushels would have been all that could have been carried, or a cargo and a half would have been all the honorable gentleman would have been able to transport to market by his line. At one end of the line there were 112 miles of railway that were to cost, according to the latest estimate, about $40,000 per mile, that is $4,400,000 ; at the other end a line of the same length at the same figures, $4,400,000 more — making a total of $8,800,000. He was to spend on Fort Francis Locks, and the improvement of navigation by railway, river and tramway, say $500,000 more, and all this expenditure would be in- curred for the purpose of a line having, at the utmost, during the whole of its navigable season, a carrying capacity of 280,000 bushels. The mere interest on capital therefore would have been $2.00 per bushel for every bushel that could ];»ossibly b^; carried over the line. The honorable gentle- man rose in \:i place to-day and advocated that policy. If the honorable gentleman had thrown into the sea every dollar that was expended in the Fort Francis l*ocks he could not more effectually have wasted it. There is not one point of utility in connection wiJi that undertaking. The honorable gentleman quoted extensively from reports in relation to the Northwest. I have no doubt he was at great pains to take out of those reports. Tl regularly r^ay as to and the \s to the :he coim- e floor of build the ec. The ndemned tisfactory 1 a line mber for to these ■ will also ;entleman! ys worthy ;entleman r justified embraced Railway. , when he t to throw jility also mud and ween Port ceeded in t over his ler day, or y until the about six he harvest have been fe been all market by ' that were ile, that is the same ,s to spend Iway, river uld be in- the whole The mere 1 for every .ble gentle- honorable ded in the There is : honorable rthwest. I ise reports. anything unfavorable to that country that he could find. I believe the honorable gentleman carefully passed over many a page that would have refuted his own argument. He seemed impelled by a mocking, imperious and cruel fate to follow in the wake of the gentleman who preceded him (Mr. Blake), and to be forced to assist him in condemning the Great West, and the schemes which he has advocated everywhere himself, and which never till now failed to receive his strong sup- port. The Opposition seem to have proceeded upon a settled plan in their tactics this session, inspired, no doubt, by the new aspirant to the leadership. First the whole chorus rang changes on the utter failure of the National Policy, and the utter and hopeless ruin of the country, with no prospect of its revival. Next the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlten,) brought forward his resolution condemning the Government Land Policy in the I^'"orth-West, and it was his patriotic endeavour to show there was no possibility of utilizing them, and that the country to the south had every possible advantage 'over ours, so that we could not com- pete with it in advantages offered to settlers. But an overwhelming majority of the House negatived his proposals. He must have been surprised to find he was utterly at variance, in his ideas and policy, with the great organ of his party in Toronto. The next act in the dismal drama was the speech of the member for West Durham — the logical sequence of all that had preceded. We have now had the strongest and darkest presenta- tion of their unpatriotic course that could have been made by hon. gentle- men opposite. We may congratulate ourselves we have heard the worst, and it is worse than anything that could possibly be urged by gentlemen who wish well to the country. Even had they had some warrant for their contention, it was not patriotic to present the dark side of the shield. But more unwarranted, mislead- ing statements never were made. I regret that the opposition have been led into a course which, I think, they will regret before a year has passed. The member for Lambton, who is now apparently in most points at one with the honorable member for West Durham, ventured, how- ever, to differ with him in respect to the entire prosperity of the United States. He tells us that its -Protective Policy has ruined its shipping trade. The following extract from an authority that he will not venture to gainsay refutes that assertion : — '• We have at our doors all the illustrations and experiences of p'-otection, and its ben(! ■ijf '! ■ V » :jjj .Hw' SPEECH OF MR. THOMAS WHITE, M.P., ''V CARDWEI-L. > f.J ;;r;„.. The following is the report of the speech delivered by the member for" Cardwell on Tuesday, on the Pacific Railway debate : — Mr. White (Cardwell) was received with cheers. He said : — Mr. Speaker, — It is impossible to over-estimate the importance of the subject which has, for the last three or four days, been engaging the attention of this House. It is difficult to imagine any qifestion more fraught with inter- est for, or more affecting the future well-being of the Dominion than that presented to us for solution. It assumes two phases, to my mind, namely, that viewed from the standpoint of the national obligation, and that from the .standpoint of the material interest of this Dominion. The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake), in relation to the first view of the question, referred to what had been said by the honorable the Minister of Railways as a "delving into anti(]iiiti(' ' That honorable gentleman, as a lawyer, knows this, that all our right, epend upon a delving into antiqui- ties. If he has any legal question in dispute between man and man, he de- termines it by delving into antiquities ; and we have to do the same thing in questions arising between communities, or individuals, or parts of com- munities. It seems to me that it did not come well from the honor- ble member, for West Durham, to sneer at the honorable the Minister of Rail- ways because he referred to the past history of this question, and to descril)e that reference as a "delving into antiquities." OUR DUTY TO BRITISH COLUMBIA. Notwithstanding that sneer, I shall, with the permission of the House, take the liberty of delving into the antiquities of this question, with regard to the relations between the Dominion and the Province of British Columbia, the duty we owe to the Province, and the obligation imposed upon us to jjer- form the terms entered into with that Province. It is not necessary to refer to the earlier history of the railway. It is well known to those gentlemen who have any knowledge of the circumstances in connection with the con- struction of the Pacific Railway, that it was originally by no means a party question, that both parties were in favor of its construction ; and honorable members who are in the habit of studying what has taken ])lace will remem- ber that the strongest language was used by the leading or^^ui of honorable gentlemen 0])posite in denunciation of those who forgot that the construc- tion of the Pacific Railway from ocean to ocean was a duty, to neglect which would inflict upon us the liability of being accused of want of patriot- ism, and as being hostile to British connection. (Hear, hear.) It was not a question whether we should build the Pacific Railway, that was urged ujDon us by the leaders of both parties. But it \\ as the manner in which it 76 [.P., member for said :— Mr. the subject attention of It with inter- on than that ind, namely, id that from le honorable view of the Minister of itleman, as a into antiqui- man, he de- e same thing parts of com- :he honor- ble lister of Rail- tion, and to e House, take 1 regard to the Columbia, the pon us to per- :essary to refer lose gentlemen 1 with the con- means a party and honorable Lce will remem- u of honorable t the construc- luty, to neglect want of patriot- r.) It was not that was urged iner in which it was to be built, the time it should take to build it. That became a ques- tion engaging the attention of Parliament, and tipon that a division took place between the two political parties in this country. When British Co- lumbia was incorporated in the Dominion we incurred the responsibility of building the railway, commence it within two years at each end, and under- taking to complete it within ten years. 'I"he Government of that time, un- der the instructions of this House, let the contract in accordance with the determination arrived at, that the road should be built by a !)rivate com- pany, aided by a subsidy of money and a subsidy of land ; and if that com- pany had succeeded, I think it would have been a great advantage to this Dominion. Who would not now gladly give fifty million icres of land and $30,000,000 to see that railway built from ocean to oce tu? (ilear, hear.) " " ' ■ THE EARLY HISTORY OF THE RAILWAY. But that scheme failed. 1 am not going to discuss the causes of that failure, which were many. Sir Hugh yKllan, who obtained, along with his associates, a charter for his comjjany, was, as I think, unfortunately mixed up with other railway enterprises, which brotight against him the strong hostility of the most powerful Canadian railway corporation in London. He proposed . not only to build a railway across the continent, but a railway from Quebec to Ottawa, to be continued to the Sault Ste. Mary, with a branch to To- ronto, and then again by the Cireat Western to go farther West, and thus secure competition with the Grand Trunk. As a < onsequence of that scheme, he met, in London, with the bitter hostility of the Grand Trunk directors and shareholders, who did everything they could to prevent his success. This strong corporation, with all the influence it had in London, was aided by circumstances on this side of the water. I am not going to say the honorable gentlemen opposite were not justified in endeavoring to turn out the Conservative Government of that day; but, I think, looking back to the past, that every one will admit it would have been the more patriotic course, considering the interests this country had at stake, and that those honorable gentlemen had i)ressed strongly the construction of this railway, had they held their hand, and not aided, by a political crisis at the moment, those on the other side of the Atlantic, who were doing their best to defeat the enterprise. I believe that, in spite of the opposition of the Grand Trunk in England, Sir Hugh Allan would have succeeded, and that we should have had enormous sums of British ca]jital expended here for tlie construction of the road had that opposition not been aided by the po- litical crisis here. The road would thus have been built by a powerful company, whose interest it would be to aid the settlement of the country, and which, through its President, controlled a magnificent line of steam- ships — and which had, spread over tlie United Kingdom, 1,200 agents, passenger brokers, every one of whom would have been an emigration agent for this country, and would have aided in filling up our Northwest territory. (Hear, hear.) But the Allan Company failed ; the Government of that day was defeated, and honorable gentlemen opposite took office. THE RESPONSIBIMTY OF THE REFORM GOVERNMENT. If the statements we have heard since this debate commenced are to be 76 '-*>■■■ u accepted, I think we may fltirly say it was open to the late Government, had they chosen, to have said to Hritish Columbia ; — " We cannot fulfil the bargain made, and therefore must ask you to release us, and we will build the railway as rapidly as we can, consistently with our financial position." (Hear, hear.) They did not take that coinse. On the contrary, they recog- nized by their first act the obligation of th^- I dominion to construct the rail- way, and that, in spite of the fact that tiiey, according to their own state- ment, made then and frequently since, were not bound to go on with ^he work except as the finances of the Dominion would permit. In a report of the Committee of the I'rivy Council, dated 8th /uly, r874, on the mission of Mr. Walkem to England, and a cable message received from the Colonial Secretary — a report in which the Roman hand of the member for I,ambton is visible in every line — we find this statement as to the position in which the bargain stood : — " Mr. Trutcih, the delt>j?ato of the British Columbia Government, present in Ottawa during the distussions on the terms of union, expressed liimsulf us follows at a public lii'ieting, in order to reassure those who were apprehensive of the convey- ances of so ra.>!' an assumption of such serious obligations: — " ' When he c.-ne to Ottiwa with his co-delegates last year, they entered into a computation with the I'-ivy Council as to the cost and time it would take to build the line, and they came to iL> conclusion that it could be iiuilt on the terms proposed in tea years. If they had said it»,"lve or eighteen years, that time would have been accepted with equal readiness, as all that was understood was that the line should be built as soon as possible. Hritish Columbia had entered into a partnership with Canada, and they were united to construct certain public works. But before one would protest against anything by which it should be understood that the Govern- ment were to borrow one hundred millions of dollars, or to ta.x the people of Canada and British Columbia to cmry out those works within a certain time (loud cheers) he had been accused of having made a very .Jewish bargain, but not even Shylock would have demanded his pound of flesh if it had to be cut from his own body (Laughter and cheers.) ' These expressions show very clearly that the terms agreed to were directory r.ither than mandatorv, and were interpreted by circumstances, the essence of the engagement being such diligence as was consistent with moderate expenditure and no increase in the then rate of taxation." ^, rtft.-^.a • aJi Then, again, in another report of Council, dated 23rd July, the honorable gentleman more tersely and more emjihatically stated the same fact. He said : — " It was distinctly understood by the British Columbia delegation at the time the terms of union were agreed upon, that the taxation of the country was not to be increased on account of this work beyond the rate then existing." Now, it was with that understanding of the agreement that the late Premier entered into the negotiations with which we have now to deal. He might then have said to British Columbia — we cannot pretend to build this railway at present, but will do what we can to carry it across the Continent and meet you at the earliest possible moment consistently with the proper ex- penditure of the public money, and you must depend on our good will and good faith. And he might the more readily have said this in view of the position of the finances at that time. The Finance Minister had just im- posed $3,000,000 additional taxation, so that when he sent his delegate to British Columbia and entered into the Carnarvon Terms, he had actually increased the burdens of the country by upwards of $3,000,000. (Hear, ;nt. had ilfil the 11 build ^sition." y recog- the rail- n state- vith ^he eport of mission Colonial ,aml)ton in which resent in follows at ) convcy- :ed into a [> to build prnposed lave been should be thip with lefoie one .' Oovern- of Canada id cheers) i\ Shylock own body directory ce of the diture and lonorable act. He t the time 8 not to be Premier He might lis railway nent and )roper ex- d will and iw of the just im- lelegate to actually (Hear, n hear.) He did not take that course. He sent a delegate, Mr. Edgar, to the British (,'oluml>ia (iovemment and made it an offer, without any pres- sure, in accordance with his own concejjtion of the obligation of this coun- try towards Briti.sh Cohmibia. I do not propose to refer to the incidents of that mission, as I wish to detain the House not a moment longer than is possible. In the re])ort of the Committee of the Privy Council, to which 1 have already referred, the proposals made by the member for Lambton, of his own motion, are thus succinctly stated : — ••^. "Tilt! propositions made by Mr. Edgar involved an immediate heavy expenditure in British Columbia not cunttmjihtlcl hy the leruix a/ union, namely, the construct'on of a railway on Vancouver's Island from the port of Es(iuimault to Nanaimo, as com- pensation to the most populous part of the Province for the re(|uiremi'nt of a longer time /«/• completing t/ir line vt'lhe mainlaiui. The proposals also embraced an obligation to construct a road or trail and telegraph line across tfie continent at once, ««/ an exfienditure of not lexn titan « inilliun on;/ it luilj within tin I'l-itinncr anniKillij on the. niit- way works o.v thr mai.s'Lano, irrespective of the amoimtH which might be spent east of the Rocky Mountains, being a half more than the entire sum British Cohimbia demanded in the first instance as the annual expenditure on the wiiole road. ' ' '■■''■• THF, CARNARVON TKRMS. " '• ■ < ■ ,-.i How'T>ord Carnarvon understood these propositions of the Covernment may be inferred from the despatch which he himself sent out, dated the i6th August, 1874; and as it is important to emphasize distinctly the voluntary offers which were made by those honorable gentlemen when they were re- sponsible for the government of this country, it is well to have Lord Car- narvon's own words as giving his understanding of those proi)Osals : — " The proposals m^ide by Mr. Edgar, on behalf of the Canadian Government, to the Provincial Government of British Columbia may be stated as follows : — * "1. To commence at once, and finish i- soon as possible, a railway from Esqui- mault to Nanaimo. " 2 To spare no expense in settling as si)eedily as possible the line to be taken by the railway on the mainland. " 3. To make at once a waggon road and line of telegraph along the whole length of the railway in British Columbia, and to continue the telegraph aiross the continent. " 4. The moment the, nurueus anJrond on the mainland are completed, to spend a minimum amount '»/" $1,500,000 annually upon the construction 0/ the railway within the procince. Lord Carnarvon suggested two amendments to these terms. He suggested first that the annual e.\i)enditure should be two million dollars instead of one million and a half; and he suggested, secondly, that the road should be completed before 1890. The Government accepted the first of these pro- ])Ositions in these words, which I think I may fairly assume are the words of the honorable member for Lambton : — " In regard to the second proposal, the committee recommend that Lord Carnarvon be informed (if it be found impossible to obtain a settlement of the ([uestion by the acceptance of the former offer) that the Government will t'oneent that, after the completion of the surveys, the average annual minimum expenditure on the mainland shall be two millions.' Then as to the second, or time limit, which Lord Carnarvon desired to impose, the honorable member for Lambton said : — " There can be no doubt that it would be an extremely difHc ult task to obtain the sanction of the Canadian Parliament to any specific bargain as to time, considering the consequences which have air. ady resulted from the unwise adoption of a limited •«.} petiod in the terms of union for the completion of so vast an undertaking, the extent of which must necessarily be very imperfectly understood by people at a dirttance. The committee advJHc that Lord (jarnarvon be informed that, while in no case could the Government undertake the completion of the whole line in the time mentioned, an extreme unwillingness exists to another limitation of time ; but if it be found abso- lutely necessary to secure a present settlement of the controversy by further con- cessions, « pledge may be gioen that th: portion west of Lake Superior will be completed so as to afford connection by rail with existing lines of rnlway through a portion of the United States and by Canadiun waters during the season o/n^ igation by the year 1890 as suggested." And, tinally, we come to the agreement actually made, as stated by Lord Carnarvon in his despatch of the 17th September, and I read that with a view of completing this part of my statement. These were the agreements that wer^ made by Lord Carnarvon and accepted by the Government of that day : — '1. That the railway from Esquimault to Nanaimo shall be commenced as soon as possible and completed witli all practical despatch. " 2. That the Surveys on the mainland shall be pushed on with the utmost vigour. On this jjoint after considering the representations of youi ministers, I feel that I have no alternative but to rely, a.s I do most fully and readily upon their assurance.* that no legitimate effort or expense will he spared first to determine the best route for the line and secondly to proceed with the details of the engineering work. It would be distasteful to me, if indeed, it were not irijpossible, to prescribe strictly any minimum of the time or expenditure with regard to work of so uncertain a nature, but happily, it is equally impossible for me to doubt that your Government will loyally do its best in every way to acceleratt the. completion of a duty left freely to its sicnse of honor and JL'Stiob. ' 3. That the waggon road and telegraph line shall be immediately constructed. There seems here to be some dilference of opinion as to the special value to the province of the undertikiug to complete these two works ; but after considering whaMias been said, I am of opinion that they should both be proceeded with at once, as indeed is suggested by your Ministers " It is worth while remarking that these two works, the waggon road and the telegraph line, were not asked for by British Columbia, but, on the contrary, British Columbia intimated that they were useless, and that she did not desire them ; but they were forced upon her and forced upon Lord Carnarvon by the honorable gentlemen opposite when they occupied seats on this side of the House : — " 4. That ,$2,00,000 a year and not $1,500,00 shall be the minimum expenditure on railway works within the province y>07n the ilate at which the surveys are siifliciently com- jileted to eiialdi- (hut amount to be ex/iended on construction. In naming this amount, I understand that, it being alike the iutertst and the wish of the Dominion (rovern- ment to urge on with all speed the completion of the works now to bt; uiulertakon, the annual expenditure will be tis much in excc.)!s if the miniuin.ix of $2,000,000 as in any year may be found praciieitble. "5. Lastly — That on or before tb Slst of D-jcember, 1890, the railway shall be completed and open for traffic from the Pacific seabord to a point at the western end of Lake Superior, ;it wiiicli it will full into (■oun(>ctioii with existing lines of railway through a portion of the United States, and also with the naviytitioti on Canadian waters. To /iroceed at present with the remamd-r of the railway extending by the country northward of Lake Superior, to the existing Canadian lines ought not in my opinion to he require I, nw\ the time for undci taking that work must be determined by the development of sottleineiit and the cl.^in.iug cirLMiustfinces of tin; couutry. Tlii; iXixy is, however, I hope not very ^ .; j, "The minute of Council of September 17th contained a statement of rensons showing why some of these modifioationg should not be pressed, but the Government actuated by an anxious desire to remove all difficulties, expressed a willingness to make these further concessions rather than forego an immediate settlement of so irritating a question, a.s the conre,sxiim.fth,e Cto\ernnitin, and who a short time afterwards was again a member of the (Government, he will be shocked at the perfidy of Canadian j)ublir men. The com[)arison will certainly not be calculated to raise us in the estimation of British statesmen. I./jrd Carnarvon accepted in the spirit in which they were given the thanks awarded him, and said, on the 4th of January . — " It has boon with great phusiire that I have received tbis expression of their opinion, I sincerely rejoice to liavo been tiie means of bringing ^o a sati.stactory convlusiou a (iu<.Bti<)n of so mucli difficulty, of removing, as I trust, all ground of Ii so future misunderstanding between the Province of British Columbia and the Dominion, and of tht!K contributing towards the ultimate completion of a public work in which th jy, and indued the whole Empire, are interested.' I. ■ . •Til.- THE PERFIDY OF THE LATE GOVERNMENT. \^. | , The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) in his speech, stated that within a few months after this correspondence had taken place, after this interchange of compliments with Lord Carnarvon, he entered the Gov- ernment upon the distinct understanding that these terms were to be aban- doned. I think too much of him and of the member for Lambton to beHeve that any such, compact could have been made. It is trn.e that he contends that the defeat of the Esquimault and Nanaimo Railway destroyed the Carnarvon ten-ns. And he contends that the offer of $750,000 was to be -.egarded as a compensation for the abandonment of those tc '-ns. It was nothing of the kind. Tiic Esquimault and Nanaimo Railway was promised in excess of the terms of union, and as compensation for the non-fulfilment of the condi- tion to build the main line by 1881. ""^'hen the bill providing for the build- ing of this railway was defeated in the Senate, the duty of the Government was to provide a substitute for the compensation for the delay on the main- land. (Hear, hear.) They offered that compensation in the form of a money grant of $750,000, that being in fact, as stated by the member for Lambton (Mr. Mackenzie), tne sum which he proposed to give as a subsidy to a pri- vate company to build the island railway. This offer, therefore, so far from being an abandonment of the Carnarvon terms, wr.s a confirination of them, an admission of their binding character, a doing, in fact, in another form, l)recisely what was agreed to be done in those terms. (Hear, hear.) THE QUESTION OF INCREASED lAX X'llON. But, Mr. Speaker, we are told that we oug' t noi. to go on with the road because there is an obligation on the (rovernment not to go on if it will in- volve increased taxation. Whatever force there may be in that argument, members of the late Ciovernment have deprived themselves of the right to u.se it. The late First Mini.ster, v.-hen he entered into the Carnarvon term , when he made the terms with British Columbia, actually approprirted. $3,000,000 of additional ta.xation to enable him to carry out those terms. Here is the statement made by the honorable member for Lambton (Mr. Mackenzie) in the minute of Council of the ::3rdjuly, 1879, sent to t^ngland for the information of the Imperial Government on this question. He said : — " So anxious, however, were the present Oovernnient to remove anv possible cause of complaint, that they did lake means to increase tlie taxation very materially in order to /i/ace Ihcinxfloen tn a ponilion to make arrunf/ti icntg/or thr j.i roue cul ion 0/ thi: initial ail I (liJiruU j.iortion.1 0/ the line ax noon an it wan jjoimtole to do xo ; and, at the name time, a .special couhdential agent wiis d>!puted to British Columbia for the express purpose of conferring with the (.iovcrnmeut of that i'rovince, anil to ( ndeuvor to arrive at .some nnderstiinding as to a course to be pursue*' wiiich could be satisfactory to British Columbia and meet the cirouiMstances 01' the Dominion. ' That was the statement made to the Imperial Government on the respon- sibility of honorable gentlemen opposite ; that when they sent their agent to Briti.sh Columbia they sent him armed with the lact that $3,000,000 had TPP fwmy 81 been appropriated to the carrying out of terms to be agreed upon in refer- ence to this railway ; and yet honorable gentlemen now say that we must dishonor ourselves, because the carrying out of the terms, which they made a show of carrying out by the infliction of $3,ooo,ooQiipcreased taxation, would invoke a very much smaller increased burden on the people. But we have another report. In order to enable the Government to fulfil the terms, and so that no excuse might be allowed for supposing that they were unwilling to carry them out, we find them stating in another report of the Privy Council on the 8th of July, that they had raised the average rate of taxation 15 per cent. The actual statement thus made is as follows : — " In order to enable (he Gonernmenl to carry out the propo-ah, which it ii-as hoped the British Columbia Government would have accepted, the average rate of taxation was raised at tlie last session about fifteen per cent., and the excise duties on spirits and tobacco a corresponding rate, both involving additional taxation exceeding three millions of dollars on the transactions of the year." (Cheers "i That is a statement made by the authority of the Government that tliis increased taxation was made expressly to enable them to carry out these Carnarvon terms ; and yet we have from these very gentlemen, now, an appeal to the country to oppose the [)olicy of the present Government in the direction of carrying out those terms, on the ground that it may increase the taxation of the country, and that in spite of the fact that the proposals of the Government will not involve anything like so large a burden. )k' cause ially in le initial MR. MACKKXZIKS RECOC.NITION OF THE 0I5LK;.\TI0NS OF THE GOVERNMENT. The honorable gentlemen, as I shall be al)le to establish, has never until this year gone back upon that record. Session after session we have had the statement of the honorable member for Laml)ton that he recognized the obligation resting upon him to carry out these Carnarvon terms. (Hear, hear.) Every session we have had his assurance to that effect. Let me read two or three such assurances given by him. when submitting his }-early f:tatements t,o the House. In his speech in submitting the Pacific Railway policy in 1876, he said (and at tiiis time the honorable member for West Durham was a member of the Government, and is therefore responsible for every word uttered) : — " We have felt from the firs* that wliile it was utterly impossible to implement to tlie letter the engagements ent^-rtd into by our predecessors, the good faith 0/ the conntrif demanded that the adminixtratiun should do everything that ivan reanonable and in their poiver to carry oat the pledi/e.s made to British Columfjia, if ii ' hb place on the Treasury benches. The honur.d)le member f(f V ; .^t f >u - ham .sat lieyide him at the time and was r<:spoiisiblc for every \ i ;J he 83 '. longer than \\ Columbia obligations ould be thu )nntiy more in British )untry would I conclusive a herefore, lor asper Hoiiso me tolerably xplorations of actual . Blake) at (i speaking the session - Lanibton, 0,000, and in spite of nent of the lis arrange- immediate ly prepared explorations ame speech iiKtmctiou in jarcfully sur- nately to be >rmoii8 force 18 unjust in d this work hicf Engineer lev to push the enty and of rails which rails shippcfl \C. IJ we are Itin these rails mstruetion of _d in sendiuf,' )le of British lEH WKUE NOT position they tien yr^i |)u ;ry \ i 1 ] i<. littered. And yet the honorable gentleman comes here and tells this House, and he tells this country, that he had before this made an arrange- ment that this work was to be ])ostponed. Let me I'ead another extract from the same debate. The honorable member for Cumberland said : — '' He had followed the hon. gentleman closely, and failed to learn what was pro- posed to be done in regard to tin- great (luestion of the Canadian Pacific Kailway. The British Coliimbii papers merely shewed that the Government had succeeded in bringing matttrs to a dead-lock, and the Premier was bound to tell the House, before asking it to votr this large amount, what we intended to do." " Hon. Mr. Bi,aive — The last paragrap'i in the papers will show." " Hon. Mr. Mackknzik — [ said our policy from the first was to do everything in our power to ketip the bargain the hou. gentleman and his friends made, aiid nothing will be lacking on our oton part to brii-g i' to a successful conclusion in British Columbia. 1 have shown pntty coik lusively that nothing I am . .re of has been left undone that could be done. I do not know what the hon. gentleman wants." LORD DUFFERIN'.S CONCEPTION' OF THE OBLIGATIONS OF THE REFORM GOVERNMENT. That is to be triken as the interjjretation of the arrangement made by the honorable member for West Durham when he entered that Cabinet. Jhit we have another authority as to what the late Government intended to do, whicii to my mind seems utterly to negative the suggestion made by the honorable member for West Durham that he entered the Cabinet upon conditions which would have dishonored the Government that accepted him on sftch terms. Lord Dufferin, then Governor-General of Canada, was sent to British Columbia in 1876. I should perhaps not use the word "sent," but he went to British Columbia, thjugh judging by his speech, perha})s I am right in saying that he was sent there. He went there at any rate. He went through the country. Honorable gentlemen who have been trying to decry British Columbia will do well to read Lord Dufferin's speech on that occasion, wherein he described what he calls " this glorious country." But sir, the then (iovernor General of this Dominion, after his return from his tour through the interior of British Columbia, and just be- fore he embarked for San Francisco, made a speech in Victoria. How seri- ous he felt that sjjeech to be may be gathered from one e.xpression, which I will read, and which was an extraordinary expression for a nobleman in his position to use : — " I would sooner, cut my right hand off than utter a single word that I do not know to be an absolute truth." This statement was made in order to convince British Columbia that what he said, he said from a knowledge of the fiicts, with a resolution to say nothing i)ut what he knew to be absolutel}' true. The honorable member for West Durham, (Mr. Blake) as a good constitutionalist, knows that be- ing a Minister at the time, he was responsible for every word Lord Dufferin then uttered. Here b an extract from the speech : — '• Let me then assure you, on tlif part of the Canadian (iovernment and on tiie pert O." aie Canadian [.lopk- at large, that there is nothing they desiiv" more earnestly or more f.^rvcntiy than to knowand tVel that you are one with them in heart, thought and feeling. Canada would indeed be dead to tiie mo.-«t self--.:vident considerations of fc!f-ini''. st, and U) the first instincts of national pride, if she did not regard wi.U 84 satisfaction her connection with the province so lichly endowed by natm< iiijahited by a community so replete with British loyalty and pluck, while it aflfoni ' bcr the means of extending her confines and the outlets of her commerce to the wide Pacific and to the countries beyond." Well, Sir, at that time there was a suspicion prevailing that the honorable member for Lambton had not acted in good faith in connection with the Carnarvon terms. There was a suspicion prevailing, because two honora- ble gentlemen of the Senate, prominent friends of that gentleman, who were known to be so good party men that one could hardly conceive their voting against any measure which the Government sincerely desired to see passed — yet voted against this bill — there was a susjjicion that he had procured the defeat of the measure for the construction of the Esquimault and Nanai- mo Railway in the Senate ; and referring to that suspicion Lord Dufferin said : — • Had Mr. Mackenzie dealt so treacherously by Lord Carnarvon, by the representative of bis sovereign in tliis country, or by you, he wouM hnvv been guilty of a most atrocious act. of which I trust lU) public man in Canada or in any other Ihitish cobmy could be < fipalile. I tell you in the most emphatic terms, and I plcdg.j my honour on the point, that Mr. Mackenzie was not guilty of any such base aud deceitful con- duct ; had I thought him guilty of it, either be would have ceased to be Prime Miniister, or I should hav(; left the country." I ask you, where is the difference between conspiring to secure the defeat of the measure in the Senate v hich had jjassed the Commons, and which the Ministry jjretended to be i favor of. and conspiring to arouse public sentmient, as daose honorable gentlemen are doing to-day, in order to pre- vent the carnnmg out of the Carnarvon terms. (Cheers.) ■' I saw Mr. fflaekenzie the next day, and I have seldom seen a man mure annoyed CM" disconcerted than he was indeed, he wa.< driven at that interview to protest with iHore warmth than he has tv-^nsed against the decision of the Ei)glisli Goveniment, ■•riuch had refutted. oa the > >n of the law ot^ieer.s of the Crown, to allow liini to atki. to the menjiu ra-m the ^ ...i.' .tfter Pimce - ward Island had entered the Con- tederation.' And yet these hoP'Trable .gentlemen come here now and ask us to postpone UEr constrmnnDn en this r3il"sray, to post])one tl.e carrying ou^ of these terms ■amich have been entered into' this solemn bargain which has l)een made, smd m orderto carr\' which, they, at that time, four or five years ago, actu- ^r tried to violate tine constitution l)y creating additional members of the srtriEte. (Cheers. Well, sir. after discussing the question of the action of ttn?- Senate. Lord Duferin said : — :i ther^ ^s one tliin:? I admit the Senate has done, i^ has revived in their integrity uumr- dii^naL treaty frisligations on the strength of which you were induced to iMiter CenirdiMKtiom, and it has reimposed upon Mr. Mackenzie and his Government the nhUi^stiim of offering yan an equivalent fn'- that stipulation in the Carnarvon terms, vrhicn he has not been aiile to miike good." Then hr refers to the offer of $750,000 as compensation for the failure of that part of die Carvarvon terms which the Senate had made it impossible to make good : — '• My only <'bject in touching upon them at all is to disabuse your minds of the idea that ther«- has been any intention on th' |iart of Mr. Mackenzie, his Governmi^nt or of Canada to break faith with you- Every sing'e item of the Carnarvon terms is at this mament tit the cintr'ie f//ii/Ji/ine>U.^ I 85 nhal)ited 'her the le Pacific )norable kvith the honora- ;lio were ir voting I passed )rocured d Nanai- Dufferin jsentativc of a most ish colony nv linnoUr _'iiful cou- bc Prime he defeat nd which se public r to pre- e annoyed otcst witli vernnient, ow liini to 1 the (Jon- postpone ese terms en made, :igo, actu- trs of the action of ii- integrity !e(| tfi enter rnmcut the rv'on tcrniH, failure of impossible linds of the Government n terms is af The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) is respons jle for that statement. Lord Dufferin pointed out how this was the case, and then he went on to say : and I beg the honorable member for ^^'e.st Durham to listen attentively to what he did say in relation to the conduct of those who, being strong in numerical majority, would try to oppress a small Province because it had not sufficient members to com])ete with them : — " Your numerical wealineSH aH a commimity is your real 8tren}?th,/o;- it is a coiisi- dercitijiii that (iiifjeals to rvery gen'/rous heart. Far he tlie day when on any acre of soil above wliicli floats the fla^ of England, mere material power, brute political prejion- tlerance, shotdd be permitted to liecide such a controversy as that which we are now discussing. It is to men like yourselves, who, with unquailinj,' fortitude, and heroic energy, have planted the laws and liberties, and the blessed influence of English homes amidst the wilds, and rocks, and desert ])lain8 of savage lands, tliat England owes the enhancement of her prestige, the ditl'usion of her tongue, the increase of her commerce, and her ever-widening renown, and woe betide the Governvvnt or the states- man who, because its inhdbif/iiits are Jew in number, and politimlly of small account, should disregard (he wishes or carelessly dismiis the representations, hotvever bluff, boisterous, or downright, of thcfeebl"sl of our dixtant colonics." I draw to those words the special attention of the honorable member for West Durham, who for the moment has permitted himself to sink the states- man who cm think of the next generation, into the parish politician, who thinks only of the next general election. (Cheers.) That was the position in 1 07 6, and I think I iiiay say that I have established beyond controversy, beyo.id the jjossibility of controversy, the fact that the honorable gentlemen were at least committed, the honorable member for West Durham amongst the rest, at that time, to the honest fulfillment of the bargain which they had made. (Cheers.) FURTHER T. IDENCE OF THE OBLIGATION OF GOVERNMENT TO THE BRITISH COLUMBIA EXPENDITURE. In 1877 — it was reported — I do not know what truth there was in the report — that it was in consequence of Lord Dufferin's visit to British Columbia, the question of the selection of the Burrard Jnle", route came up for the first time. Up :o that time that route had liardly been heard of, and the honor- able memljer for Lambton was known to be in favor of the Bute Inlet route. 'Mr. Mackenzie — I have no objection to tell the honoraM' Licntieman that Lord Dufferin had nothing personal!) to do with it. It was adopted purely upon practical engineering reasons. 'J'he homnible gentleman is quite correct in saying I was in favor of the Bute Inlet route for a consider- able time. In fact T was in favor of it until I got something better. Mr. White — Who suggested the change is not a matter of any conse- quence to my argument. I simpl)- gave the report as it was current at the time, and the honorable member knowing the facts contradicts it. In 1877 the Burrard Inlet route auie up for the first time, so far as Parliainent was concerned, and so tar as the suggestion of it as a serious route was oncemed. The honorable member for Lambton, in reply to the honorable member for ^Aimberland, who asked ^\■hether, in connection with some other statements whirli he made, he propo.sed to settle that question and ptit the line under contract without the consent t^~ Parliament, that being apparently the inten- tion of the Government, fewn tlw sjjeech of the honorable gentleman, Mr. 86 Mackenzie rei>liecl : — " Certainly not ; I think I stated we hoped to liave " the tenders submitted to Parliament next session." (Cheers.) So that in 1877, as in 1876, there never was a thought of abandoning the line in British Coluuil)ia, or violating the Carnarvon terms ; but on the contrary the Government of the day were acting in good faith in their desire to carry out those terms. Well, Sir, in 1878 the honorable gentleman, the last time he had the ])rivilege of making a statement from the Ministerial bunches, referred to the great surveys which had taken place in connection with the propc^ed road through British Columbia. Throughout all his sp .edies on, the subject, from first to last, there runs a line of argument showing how sincerely he was devoted to carrying out the scheme of beginning t'lc work on the mainland. He pointed out that 47,000 miles of country had been traversed by the various parties who were sent out to explore the country, and that there had been " actual instrumental surveys laboriously measured " yard by yard, of not less than t 2,000 miles, or nearly five times the length " of the road when completed from Lake Nipissing to the Pacific Ocean." MR. MACKENZIE'S INCONSISTENCY. , . Then he gave his reasons for desiring to gu on at once as follows : — " If there wfre no political considerations governing tlie action of the Government, and these political reasons referred to our ol)Iigations with the British Columbian Government and people to proceed as fast a-i possible — or as the hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Bimster) says two or three times every day " pro eed immediately.' — if there were no considerations of that kind to govern our action, it might be, I have no doubt it would be desirable to spend another two years exploring the country which is yet comparatively unknown. ' "The governing consideration then, sir, are all ia favou; as it appi-ars to me of adopting the view.K /^f the Chief tjtijemevr In respect to this line. Tlie Government have not at the moment formally resolved upon the a/loption of fliis line, but it is the opinion of the Government that the considerations to which 1 have alluded in these remarks arc such as must gfovern their action if they are to attend to this matter purely in the public interest." That was the statement made by the honorable member the last time he addressed this House from the ministerial benches. What ocy;urred after- wards ? Parliament was prorogued, the general elections were coining on, and the honorable genllemaii advertised for Lenders fi)r the construction of that very portion of the railway which we are now asked to postpone. Now, what are we to infer from that? Governments do not do those things, on the eve of general elections, which are likely to be unpopular with the coun- try. He advertised for those tenders simply because the public mind of this country had been *h^jroughly imlnied with the fact that the honor of the country was pledj.,;d to the carrying out of this arrangement. (Cheers.) He ha(i been going on through four sessions, making the only condition of commencement, the completion of the surveys, and as soon as the surveys were completed he advertised for tenders. (Cheers) It is true he has suggested, and 1 am bound to say I was astonished at the suggestion and I am sure this House will be astonished when I offer them the proof I am going to offer, — it is true he suggested he did not intend to build the road, although he advertised for tenders, intimating that he advertised for tenders. simply in order that he might find out how much it was likely to cost. (Laughter and cheers.) After all the surveys made and all the reports ob- tained, wc are actually asked to believe that he had advertised simply with with ^he view of obtaining an idea of the cost. The only object he had in view m sending this advertisement from one end of the Dominion to the other, inducing contractors to make enquiries about them and to go to the expense and incur the loss of time in getting up their tenders, was simply to ascertain the probable cost without any idea, of practical work. (Hear, hear.) All 1 can say about it is this : he deceived his own friends most wonderfully if that was his intention. Here is a statement in the Toronto Globe, of the 20th September last, I do not quote it because it is in the Globe, but because it is an evidence of what was the popular impression as to his intention in advertising for tenders : — "Sir Charles Tupper's Pacific Railway resohitions proposed to construct 125 miles of road in British Columbia (lurin<,f the present season. By that promise the Britisli Columbian memliors were induced to vote for the tariff, so injurious in itself to their Province. They have been amused ever since by tales ot explorations, surveys, gua- rantees, purchases of steel rails, and announcements that operations would ^oon begin. It is now late in the year, nothing has yet been done, and very little could be done before winter if the work were now begun. Had Mb. Mackenzie remained in opkice, A LAIK'.E PORTION' OK TIIK LINK WOULD NOW HAVE BEEN OO.SSTUUCTED, AND ACCESS TO THE JNTBUIOR HAVE HKEN GIVEN. The people of British Columbia may well wonder at their folly in parting with the ' bird in hand.'" " That was the impression the honorable gentleman made. Well, Sir, a short time afterwards it was announced that the Burrard Inlet route had been agreed upon, and that the Government were advertising for tenders for the construction of a road in accordance witli that decision. And here is what tlie Globe said on the 27 th October in reference to this question : — « Just a year ago Mr. Mackenzie, as Minister of Public Works, was making prepa- rations for the letting of contracts to build a line from Yale to Kamloops, about 120 miles, and the work of transporting the rails fri>m Esqiiimault to the mainland was actually begun. As soon as the present Government came into power, the order for the transportation of the rails was countermanded, and the project of building the Vale-Kamloops line was abandoned." " In other words, they are shut up to a choice between acknowledging that they have by their incompetence lost a whole year to the construction of the line, and confessing that they never meant to give it up at all, and sought only to temporize in the face of difficulty at the expense of the feelings and hopes of the unfortunate islanders." That was the opinion of the Toronto Globe in relation to the action of the hon. gentleman. There was then no suggestion that the road should be j)ostj)oned, but a suggestion that time had been lost in not having gone on with it earlier. (Cheers.) 1 have evidence still stronger than that— the evidence of the hon. member for Lambton himself— which hon. gentlemen o|)posite will perhaps accept. Last year the hon. member delivered a speech on the floor of this House. He had no responsibility of oftice upon him ; he was in a position, if he had chosen to do so, to have done then what he has humiliated himself by doing on this occasion. (Hear, hear.) But he did not do so. Here is the assurance that he gave to hon. gentleman on this side : — • " They will always find that gentlemen on this side will be prepared to consider 88 all stich questions from a truly natiuiial point of view. We ircognize the obliijaliou reding upon in ax Ciinadians, and while 1 assert, in the most positive manner, that nothing could have been done by any administration during our term of. office that we did not do or try to do, in order to accomplish or realize those expectations which were generated by tht; Government of hon. gentlemen opposite in their admission of British Columbia into the Cont'ederacy I say, at the same time we endeavoured, not merely to keep the national oliligations, Imt we venturetl to a great extent our own j)olitiial existence as administrators; we risked our political position for the Bake of carrying out to completion, in the best way possible, the t'ourst? which hon. gentlemen opposite had promised sliould be taken." They are evidently not going any longer to risk their political position for the sake of carrying to completion, and in the best way possil)Ie, the obli- gations which hon. gentlemen opposite had so emphatically rivelted upon the Dominion. Then he gave to this country from the Opposition benches, a declaration of his i)olicy : — "Our proposal was this : We endeavoured in the first place to obtain some modi" fications ot the terms. We despatched an agent to Uritisli (Jolumbia, and Lord Carnarvon ultimately ollered his good services in order to arrive at some under- standing with that Province, and wc reached the imderstauding that we would endeavour to build a railway from Lake Superior to the Pacific Ocean by 1890, that we should expend a certain amount jier annum in IJritish Columbia after the surveys were completed and the line adopted. The line never wan surveyed siiffiriently to enable i/s to reach that conclumon till I-AST year, and as soon AS WE HAD INKOHMATION TO GIIDE IS WE ADOPTEH THE BfllKAnD INLET ROUTE AND IMMEDIATELY ADVERTISED FOIt TENDERS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OP THAT LINE." (Cheers.) That is the sl:itemeut of the hon. gentleman ; but I have another passage from his speech stronger than that. It will be remembered that the policy of the Hon. the Minister of Railways was this : He asked this House to declare that the selection of the -Burrard Inlet route was prema- ture, to give him permission to make further and other explorations, and further to allow him to let 125 miles of railway where he might determine after these explorations were made. What did the hon. member for Lamb- ton say to this projiosition ? Here is an extract from his speech, and I beg hon. members to note it well : — ' : , 1 '■ 1 do not see how it is possible that this House can authorize the Government first to select a line, and, at the same time, when that line is not made known to Parlia- ment, that we should authorize the Government to enter into a contract for building 126 miles of the railway. If the (Jovernment ask for power to let out contracts on lines that have been already thoroughly surveyed and are located, I would not blame those who approved of the policy of the Govenunent, for giving them tliat power, and, i/lltey OKk for the iioxcer to huild 125 miles on the line which 1 believe to he bent, I tvill be prepared to sup/iort thai propo.iition, but I am not prepared to support any pro- position to place power in the hands of any Government to expend money in build- ing a portion of a railway, without, at least, communicating the place where that money is to bo expended." (Cheers.) Now, it comes to this, that had the honorable member for Cum- berland been less anxious to select the best possible route for British Colum- bia, had he been willing to come down here last year and ask permission tO let 125 miles of railway on the Burrard Inlet route, the honorable member for Lambton would have supported him, and, I need not say, the whole part> at his back would have supported him as well. (Loud cheers.) 89 THE SECRET OF MR. MACKENZIE'S CONVERSION. . , i> ' Now, Mr. Speaker, what has brought about this change ? (Certainly the financial position last year wa- not better than the financial posilion this year. (Hear, hear.) Certainly the business outlook was not IxHcr last year than this year. (Hear, hear.) Certainly the jirospect in this country in relation to the filling up (>f the Nor'h-west was not better last year than this year. (Hear, hear.) \\ hy, then, ^as he prepared last year to give his support to the precise expenditure asked Ibr to-day, while this year he advocates a postponement of the work ? There is a reason for it. An honorable gentleman who was not here last year has returned to public life. (Hear, hear.) \Ve h. ve the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Jilake) again in this House, 'i'hat is why this opposition is put for- ward. Those who have watched his political career since 1867 know that he never brooked leadership, and that he does not brook it now. He is to-day aspiring to the leadership of his party ; but I will tell him, if he will permit me to do so, that a man who does not know how honestly to follow will never successfully lead. (Cheers.) Well, what is the result? Those who have watched Parliament, as 1 have watched it from that gallery, know that the incorporation of the North-west territories has always received the support of the honorable member for Lambton. He has always been in favor of filling up the Northwest, and never until last night has he ( ' er uttered a single sentence oi' discredit against that North-west territuiv. But those who have, as I have said, watched the course of e/ents in this Parliament, will remember the almost open rupture that took place between the honorable member for South Bruce (Mr. Blake) and the honorable member for Lambton, because the latter supported the ])olicy of the Government in regard to bringing in this North-west territory ; and they •will also remember that the honorable member for South Bruce ultimately left the House in a pet, and did jiot vote at all. Not satisfied, 1 say, with placing his leader in the humiliating position in which he ha.'> ^)laced the honorable member for T.iambton, by inducing him to turn his uack on his political record, he compelled him to devote two hours last evening in that tri ngular speech of the honorable members for ^»est Durham, North Nor- folk and Lambton, the details of which were announced in advance by that honorable gentleman, to reading extracts from reports and books calculated to discredit the country, and to prove, if the statements were true, that the then member for South Bruce was right in his refusal to incorporate the North-west with the Dominion, and that the member for Lambton was ivrong in supporting the Government on that question. (Cheers ) THE LIBERAL FOLIC* OF DISPARAGING THE COUNTRY. T'le honorable member for West Durham referred to the question of W^estern development, and he stated that that Western development had been most m.rvellous There is one thmg that will strike every honorable member in this House that according to the honorable members on the other side every- thing American has been marvellous and everything Canadian has been the reverse. He sel-^cted two States— Kansas and Nebraska— as illustration.s of progress, and in order to prove that we had no reason to look for any IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^y ^> /A #^^ 1.0 I.I 1.25 m §2A 2.2 1.4 re 1.6 r w Photographic Sciences Corporation ^ r^ > # "^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. K.SSO (716) 873-4503 ^ ■ 90 such progress, he gave reasons showing the great advantages enjoyed by the Western States as compared with the Canadian Northwest. The honorable gentleman dwelt strongly upon what he called the vast recruiting ground which the Western States possessed in the United States, and as an illustra- tion of this, he pointed out that of the increase in the population of the States and Territories, west of the lakes, between 1850 and i860, 81 per cent, was native and 19 per cent, was foreign ; and that between 1860 and 1870, the proportions were 79 per cent, native and 21 per cent, foreign. Then he went on to show that there was no possibility of our copying that wonderful development in our Northwest ; that we had no such native recruiting ground as the Western States. It will be perceived that while the honorable gentleman is jjleased to build up a Chinese wall as against immi- grants coming into this country, he puilr. it down when Canadians are to go into that country (hear, hear.) Mention has been made two or three times of the large number of Canadians going into the United Slates. There is no doubt that such an emigration has been going on. But it is worth while to point out that by the census of 1870, it appears that of the population of the United States there were i.2() per cent, of the whole population Canadians, and that in British North America 1.85 per cent, was of Ameri- can birth. That rather pulls down the Chinese wall on both sides, and shows that the people do come and go from and to both sides. A r.RIGHr PICTURE OF THE FUTURE. '' ' ' But after proving to his own satisfaction that we could get comparatively no- population into our Northwest, the honorable member for West Durham went on to ask of what vtlue the population going there will be to the older Provinces. And referring to the suggestion that the manufacturers of the east will find a market in the west, the honorable gentleman asked, with one of his most cynical sneers, whether the N. P. was to have no effect there. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, it is well known that in the United States, where protection prevails in the west as well as the east, western development has. resulted in home markets for eastern manufacturers. (Cheers.) So much is this the case, that the group of manufacturing States has '-creased in population in an equal ratio with the whole United States. (Cheers.) I think it will be admitted by everyone who knows anything of the progress of immigration, notwithstanding the suggestions of the member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) that emigration has always gone on lines of latitude, that the tendency in the United States is for the emigrant .0 go into ncvf territory. Places that were, the centres of immigration only ten years ago, are now the recruiting ground for emigrants going still further westward ; and as we have, at this moment, in our Northwest, the newest regions — almost the only places remaining on the Nortk American continent entirely new — we shall have the same process or movement from east to west, into oui- territory, in the future, in addition to the large immigration from the Old World. (Cheers.) THE IRISH IN CAN.\DA, Then the member for West Durham told us as another reason why we could not hope for much emigration to. that coimtry, that the people of Ireland 91 were not likely to come into Canada ; and we had an appeal to Irish sym- pathies as a means of signalizing, perhaps, the advent of Irish leadership, and the downfall of Scotch ascendancy in the Liberal party. If he had been disposed to deal fairly with his own country, he might have referred to the fact that there is no part of the North American continent where the Irish race occupies a better ])osition than in Canada. ^Vhat is the fact in the United States to-day ? The governing party are bitterly opposed to the Irish race ; and the most effective cartoons of the great Republican carrica- turist Nast are those in which he ai)j)eals to Irish antipathies among native Americaris. Do we find anything of that kind here ? On no other part of this continent have the national and religious feelings of die Irish Roman Catholics been recognized as in Canada. (Cheers.) Even in the Act for opening up our new territorj- there is a constitutional provision made for supplying the Irish Catholics with schools in accordance with their own re- ligious convictions. The honorable gentleman might, when making that appeal to Irish sympathies, and endeavoring to secure a new alliance, with a view to the building up of his party, have said this much in relation to the liish race in Canada. Nowhere, whether in j^olitics, commerce, or the pro- fessions, has the Irish race achieved greater renown or a more pre-eminent position than in the British North American provinces. ^Cheers.) T"HE RAILWAY AS A COLONIZING AGENT. J. '(■ But I am glad he admits that the railways in the United States have been the secret of their development. There is no doubt of it. In the Re- public, in i860, only 18 years ago, there were only 36,635 miles of railway ; in 1878, there were 81,841,000 ; the average mileage built every year for the last 18 years was 2,845, equal to the entire length of the Canada Pacific Railway. (Cheers.) Though he admits that it is to those railways 's due the rapid peopling of the American Northwest, giving an example of a movement of population and of settlement on a scale never before seen, yet he seeks to place his party on the platform of building no more railways in Canada. (Hear, hear.) The member for North Norfolk, referring last night to the impossibility — for thnt seems to be the theme on the opposite side — of building up our Northwest country at all, alluded to the small pro- gress made in the Western Sates from 1800 to 1830. When he had to go back that far he was hard pressed for an argument. (Hear, hear.) At that time it is quite true the Western States were not peopled at all. Their popu- lation was, I think, about 7 60,000, the whole population of the country being 12,866,020. But since, and in exact proportion to railway development, the Western States have been developed. Up to that time there was scarcely any emigration from the Old World to the United States. It is rather a curious fact that from 181 5 to 1840 the emigration from the British Isles to the British North American Provinces actually exceeded the whole emigra- tion from them to the United States by 82,000. Down to 1847, the year of the Irish famine and the terrible ship fever, the emigration from the British Isles to Canada was 746,163, and to the United States 780,048, the differ- ence being only about 24,000 in favor of the United States. But since that year emigration has been on a larger scale ro the United States, in conse- quence of those very Western territories attracting the people from the 92 Eastern States, who left room for the people from the Old World. By the census returns, while 645,608 people came from the United Kingdom to Canada, from 1847 ^i^' 1870, ^6^2,624 went to the United States. VV'e have in our mother land an important recruiting ground for emigrants to this country. (Hear, hear.) In spite of the enormous emigration from the Mother country, the population still increases. From i860 to 1870, its emi- grants lO all parts, including Australia, Canada, and the United States, reached 1,571,729, des[)ite which its increase of population was over two and a half millions. That shows how important a recruiting ground the British lies furnish for this Dominion. (Hear, hear.) We are told we are not going to get much money from our lands in the Northwest. I'he mem- ber for West Durham stated that 11,770,000 acres were sold in the United States, from i860 to 1869, and from 1869 to 1879, 47,170,000 acres. Mr. Blake — Not sold, but granted and sold to settlers. Mr. White — I understand — located or taken up. But he did not refer to the railway lands disposed of. Mr. Blake — I mentioned that that number did not include the railway lands. Mr. White — I so understood you. But what do we find ? That the United States Government granted to its railway companies 192,308,311 acres, and that the companies sold to June 30th, 1879, .13,698,068. acres. Thirteen railway companies in the United States sold in 1877, 1,006,266 acres, and in 1878, 2,570,744. Sixteen companies sold their lands at an average of $5.70 an acre. So there is proof that the railway companies in the United States have succeeded in outdoing the Government, and that people have actually gone West and paid large prices for railway lands when they could have got homesteads and pre-emptions for little or nothing, showing the advantages and good results that have flown from a perfectly organized system in inducing these companies to co-operate in the settlement of those lands. The total receipts frc-"! the sale of lands in the United States for this century are $204,447,473. Those figures show that the lands of that country have been yearly growing in attractiveness ; that there has been a greater demand, a large number of sales and more competition, for the land year by year. We may fairly assume, then, in connection with our North- west, the settlement of a large population in it at no distant day. (Cheers. _) • ■ THE DEUT OF THE COUNTRY. ' Another reason urged by the memlx^ for West Durham why we could not hope for success in selling the Northwest was that we have a large debt in Canada. We have. I very much regret it is so large. But we are incurring obligations, perhaps in the hour of our greatest weakness, that will suflice for years. We are building up large enterprises, such as those connected with the canals ; deepening our rivers, erecting lighthouses on our coasts, in the interest of that great commerce diat must come to the country in the future. These expenditures make additions to our debt. But those improvements go on addir.g, no-: by way of direct return — which the hon. gentleman seems to think is the only possible return a nation can have for its ex])enditures, but in the development of our industries, of our trade and commerce, and in the promotion of that prosperity which Is very much 93 more valuable than any question of so many dollars as tolls from those works. (Cheers.) Take the Welland Canal ; it does not yield us a g'-eat deal in direct returns. And yet who is there in the country would oppose the expenditure on its improvement ? Who would even dream of looking for a return from tlat work from the tolls on the vessels passing through it. It is simply a means of bringing the largest vessels f'-om the Western lakes into Lake Ontario, to enable Canada to compete wirh the United States for the shipment of grain to llurope. Nothing could he. more unfair than to refer to the debts for such public works as if they had to be repeated from year to year. They are sources of development which the people have voluntarily undertaken in view of the great advantages to result from them. (Cheers.) The honorable gentleman should have dealt honestly with our debt, which he told us had increased from $77,- 706,000 net debt in 187 1, to $147,485,070 in 1879, or about 89 per cent. ; and he went on to compare that increase with the increase in Euro- pean States wliose large debts have been incurred, not for the purpose of development, but for destructive objects and great armaments. But with all this great increase, it will be admitted that the measure of the burden of the debt is the annua' interest paid upon it. Now what is the fact ? That while the net debt has increased about 89 per cent., the actual interest on the debt has increased rather under 40 per cent. (Cheers. ) Mr. Elake — I stated that. Mr, White — Yes ; but the honorable gentleman so emphasized his statement as to cause the fact to be overlooked. That is the real position of affairs as to the increase of debt ufjon which the honorable gentleman dwelt. There was no object, I think, speaking in the interest of Ivls own country, in throwing into the face of those who might desire to take advan- tage of the fact, that a large increase has taken place ; no object in giving an opportunity to those who are opi)osed to Canada, and who are watching this debate, ready to use the expressions of the honorable gentlemen to the detriment of this coiintry in England and Europe generally ; no necessity to refer to an increase of the debt in a way to cause an erroneous impression in regard to it. In that increase about $14,000,000 are debts of the provinces which have been assumed by the Dominion ; that is no real increase, but a transference of debt. Sir Richard J. Cartwright — That is a mistake. Mr. White — Does the honorable gentleman deny that view? Sir Richard J. Cari'wright — Certainly. Mr. White — I think I am right ; and I do not think the meiViber for AVest Durham will venture to say that the assumption by the Dominion of the debts which had to be paid by the provinces, is any addition to the burdens of the people ; it is a mere transference of tne obligation from the provinces to the Dominion, the taxes coming from the same people all the while. (Cheers.) ;~«f:ki^i 0)->'n u,f(;>->t • M' THE FINANCIAL POSITION OF CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES CONTRASTED. Then the honorable gentleman referred to the annual expenditure in Canada, which was, if I remember aright, $6.69 per head, while in the United States it was $6.13 per head. Well, what is the fact with regard to our expend!- »Y •"■■"^ fp 94 -.!• .f tare ? It is well that our condition, as comjiared with the United States, should be understood when the whole policy of lionorable gentlemen oi^po- site is to show how much more desirable a country from every standpoint is the United States to settle in than Canada. The honorable gentlemen referred to the large decrease of debt which is taking place there, and happily taking place, because i\ is well that all free governing communities should be as ligiitly taxed as possiMe. But the honorable gentleman, in taking that ground, ought to have pointed out that the expenditures of the Dominion of Canada practically include the expenditures of the Provinces, (hear, hear), and that there is one item, the subsidies to the Provinces, which, it seems to me, ought always to be considered in presenting the ex- penditures of the Dominion of Canada. What are the State debts in the United States ? What are the debts outside altogether of the debts of the Federal Government ? The last official census of 1870 shows - that there were State debts, couiiiiy, town and city debts, independent altogether of the Federal debt, amountir.g to $868,676,758- (Hear, hear.) The amount raised by direct taxation in the United States in connection with the State, county, town and city debts, amounted to no less than $^80,591,521. In i860, those direct taxes, outside the Federal taxes altogether, outside the revenues of the Federal Government, amo'uited to $94,186,746 for that yea»-, and in 1870 they had increased to $280,591,521, or an increase during that period of $196,404,775. (Hear, hear.) The honorable gentleman referred to another point. He says : — Lool\ at the enormous taxes involved in the Customs' duties. Under this Customs' tariff we have ■ the large sum of 19.62 per cent, of everything that is im- ported into the country going into the Dominion Treasury, and he urged that, I presume, as a reason why people should go to the United States xather than come to Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, he might also have stated that in the United States, of the total imports, free and dutiable, no less than 29.44 per cent, goes into the Federal Treasury. Or, if he came to dutiable goods alone, he might have pointed oiut that while in Canada it is somewhere about 24 per cent., in the United States it is 45.28 per cent, of everything that is imported th.^t goes into the Federal Treasury. That is a specimen of the kind of argument with which this House has been treated, in order to prove that this country is hardly a fit country to live in, that we have neither present nor future to hope for, and that all sensible men should feel that the proper place to go to, if they want to change their homes at all, is into the United States and not into Canada. (Hear, hear.) THE RESOURCES OF BRITISH COLUMBIA. And now, sir, I come, for a moment, to the question of British Colum- bia itself. It seems to me that in relation to British Columbia there is a determination Irom one end of the country to the other to belittle that Pro- vince. We have heard about the 12,000 people there; we have heard about the enormous injustice done tu this country by the representation given to those 12,000 people; we have heard about British Columbia being a source of large expenditure, and as practically returning nothing to the Treasury ; we have heard of it as a country utterly useless ; we have -heard honorable gentlemen say, with a flippancy which I am sure every one 95 must regret when you come to remember the position they occupy, tliat if it is a question between building this rail'vay and letting British Columbia go, they say : Let her go — they almost say, let her go whether the railway is built or not. What are the facts with regard to this Province ? I do not repeat the remarkable figures given by the honorable member for Vic- toria (Mr. DeCosmos) in the speech he has addressed to this House. He gave us figures which I think will have a very considerable iniluence in ■educating the public sentiment of this country in relation to British Colum- bia. What was the revenue last year of that Province which we are asked to regard as being utterly valueless, which has not yet commenced to be developed, but which I think will be found to contain natural riches — I was going to say hidden riches — which, in the near future, will make it, if not the richest, one of the richest provinces of this Dominion ? The revenues last year from customs, seizures, excise, mariners' fees, stamps, kc, amounted to $5; -',955.29. Sir, what was the expenditure ? 1 do not admit that the expenditure on surveys can fairly be cha-geable to British Colum- bia. British Columbians would have been glad, 1 have no doubt, if the Dominion of Canada had consented to begin the road without a survey at all (hear, hear). The expenditures for surveys in British Columbia have been made for the exclusive benefit of Canada as a whole. They have been made with the object of finding the cheapest and best route for the railwry with a view to future saving and future advantage, and therefore they are in no way chargeable to that pro- vince solely. But taking the expenditures on subsidy, collection of customs, excise, lighthouses, coasts surveys, fisheries, salaries of Lieutenant-Governor and Rtcciver-General, penitentiary, hospital, Indians, administration of justice, public works, post office, — taking all these, we find the expendi- tures were $462,(72, so that there was an annual balance in favor of the Dominion last year $110,782. That was the position of British Columbia in connection with the Dominion of Canada. Mr. Blakk — Have you included the interest on the debt and the sub- sidy? . = • . :. . : Mr. White — I have inckided the subsidy only. Mr. Blake — And the interest on their share of the debt ? Mr. White — How much is it? Will the ex-Finance Minister kindly say how much it was ? Sir Richard J. Cariwriht — According to the statement of the De- ptity Finance Minister it was $97,000. Mr. White — Then we have still a balance in favor of the Dominion. But what I want to point out is this, that the reventies have been progress- ing in that Province. In 1874 the revenue from customs which I take as a fair test, not having had to examine the others in detail, was $3016,436 ; in 1875, $337»45i ; i" 1876, .$490,226; in 1877, $405,650; in 1878, $426,- 607 ; in 1S79, $517,261, shewing a steady progress every year, with the exception of 1876, when the revenues increased by nearly $90,000 by some means which 1 ha/e not been able to learn With the exception of that year there has been a steady progress from $306,436 in 1874 to $517,261 in 1879. Then there is another point which I think indicates that the people of British Columbia are somewhat progressive. There is no better test of the progress of a people than the post-office I find that the collec- 96 # m 'Mil. i^ tions in the post-office of British Columbia amounted last year to $18,438, while in Prince Edward Island, with its one hundred thousand inhabitants, a province which we all admire, the garden province of the Dominion, the receipts were $20,840, or a difference of only about $2,400 between British Columbia with its 12,000 inhabitants and Prince Edward Island. (Hear, hear.) This indicates an activity on the part of the people of British Columbia, an enterprise and intelligence, which augur well for the future of that Province (hear, hear.) Sir, why should we not expect that this piece of railway in British Columbia will return something to this Dominion in the form of regular tolls, and by the development of the Province itself? If any one will take the trouble to look over the library, they will find that in i860, 1 86 1 and 1862, almost every body seemed to be engaged in writ- ing books about British Columbia, showing that that Province contains within itself sources and wealth which are certainly equal to those which are to be found in any other part of the Dominion. There is nothing more unfortunate than the disposition to measure all national wealth by the grain producing i)ower of the country. We have our prairies where wheat can be raised : we iiave in Nova Scotia our magnificent mines of coal and iron, which are gjing to make that Province very wealthy in the future ; we have New Brunswick forests of timber and the shipbuilding industry which Pi ovince ; and we hav< in British and particulaily of coal, iron and m are the distinctive features of that Columbia great sources of riches, other minerals, which have always and which 1 venture to believe wil heen the basis oi powertul States, n:ake Britisii ("olumbia one of the wealthiest P-'ovinces in this Dominion. Apart altogether, theicibre from the considerations of national honor, which- seem to me to be strojig, and which have been presented with so much ft e by honorable gentlenicn op- posite, when they occupied a jiosition on this side of the House, that they cannot escape from th',m. I say that, on mere grounds of material develop- ment and natural well-being, we ought to do something towards the develop- ment of that province. The honorable member for North Norfolk (Mr, Charlton) talked last night of an expenditure of $30,000,000 in British Co- lumbia, There is no such expenditure demanded from the House at this time. As I understand, the policy the Government has announced it is this: honorable gentlemen opposite admit that we must complete the por- tion of the road we have already under contract from Thunder Bay to Red River and the 200 miles west of Red River. I understand the policy of the Government is to build the 125 miles of railway which opens up the best section of British Columbia, and which gives entrance to a great length of navigation, and will open up such portions of that province as are capa- ble of development and improvement ; and that ihe work of the Pacific Railway shall go on in accordance with the wants of settlement in the prai- rie regions. 'J'here is no necessity in British Columbia for the continuance of that road to the Rocky Mountains until the railway --"^ross the plains is ready to meet it. (Hear, hear.) But as the road goes on over the plains in advance of settlement, the intermediate country will become filled with people, and when we get to that point where we shall be receiving advan- tages, which 1 venture to believe will be considerab'e, then the question of the connection of the line on the prairies with the line which is now pro- posed to be constructed will become an important question for this Domini- 97 on to decide. (Hear, hear.) That does not become an important question at present, and it is not right, therefore, for the honorable member for North Norfolk to talk of an expenditure of $30,000,000 in connection with British Columbia. I venture to believe that if the policy which is announced to us here is fairly carried out ; if the policy is determined upon to build these railways with the least possible expenditure of money consistent with the safe working of the railway ; if everything is done that can be done to put peo- ple in these western prairies ; if we devote ourselves to the development of these enormous sources of wealth which are to be found in British Colum- bia itself; I think we may fairly look forward, as a result of that policy, to such resources in the future as will enable us to carry on to completion the great works which we have undertaken. Honorable gentlemen opposite have chosen a different course ; they have determined to cry halt : their dis- position is to ignore altogether the obligations which they have entered into ; but I mistake the people of this country if any party can hope to build up success upon national repudiation and national dishonor. The honorable gentleman resumed his seat amid loud and long-continued applause. «»» « Estimate referred to in Parliament, 15th April, 1880, by the Honorable the Minister of Railways and Canals. The Minister of Railways and Canals to the Engineer-in-Chief. Department of Railways and Oanalb, Ottawa, 15th April, 1880. ■ Dear Sir, — The Pacific Railway debate will begin this afternoon, and I must ask you to furnish me with an estimate of cost. In doing this, take tJie following data : — The four contracts recently let in British Columbia, making full allowances for the reductions to be made and referred to in your report on these contracts. The contract for the first 100 miles west of Red River, as it is being carried out with half ballasting, etc. The accej)ted tender for the work on the second hundred miles section west of Red River, ($438,914). With regard to the location and character of the railway, I am aware that your own preference has been for a line with light, easy gradients. The Government recognizes the advantage of this feature between Lake Superior and Manitoba, but west of Red River we attach less importance to it than the rapid settlement of the country and the immediate accommodation of settlers. The policy of the Government is to construct a cheap railway, following, or rather, in advance of settlement, with any workal>le gradients that can be had, in- curring no expenditure beyond that absolutely necessary to effect the rapid coloniza- tion of the country. In accordance with this policy, Mr. Marcus Smith has found a line on the second hundred mile section where, two years ago, he reported it impossible under the old system of gradients, and he has stated to me that there will be no heavier hundred mile section than this one between Manitoba and the Rocky Mountains. I am, there- fore, perfectly justified in calling upon you to take the accepted tender for the second hundred miles section as the basis for estimating cost up to the mountains. 7 98 You have recently shown mo returns from Messrs. Cadtly k Jennings, indicating large reductions efiect(d on Sections 41 and 42. The rails for these sections have been secured at very low rates, and there arc oihor circumstances which I need scarcely Bay will enable you to place the cost of opening the line from Selkirk to Lake Superior at mucii less than the sum named a year ago. Yours laitiifully, CHAULES TUrPER. Sandpoud Flkmino, Esq., Enginoer-in-Chief, Canadian Pacific Railway. 7'he Engineer-in-Chicf to the Minister of Railways and Canah. Canadian Pacific Railway, Office of the Engineer- in-Cfhef, Ottawa, 15th April, 1880. The Honorahle Sir Chaulbs Tdi'pkr, K.C.M.G., Miniwter of Railways and Canals. Sir, — I have the honor to submit the following estimate of expenditure neces- sary to place the Canadian Pacific Railway in operation from Lake Superior to Port Moodr. T understand the policy of the Government, with respect to the railway, to be : — 1. To construct the section between Lake Superior and Red River with the limited gradients and curves set forth in my reports laid before Parliament, so as to secure cheap transportation, and to provide, by the time the railway shall be ready for opening, an equipment of rolling stock and general acco^^umodation sufficient for the traffic to be then b)ciced for. 2. To proceed with the work west of Red River by constructing 200 miles on the route recently established. The roadway and works to be of the cha.acter defined by the 48*^h contract and the tenders for the 65th contract recently received. To proceed with the construction of 125 miles in British Columbia, under the 60th, 61st, 62nd and 63rd contracts. The expenditure on the 125 miles to be limited in accordance with the provisions of the contract, and the views set forth in my re- port of the 22nd November last. • To proceed gradually with the intervening distance. To delay placing addi- tional sections under contract in British Columbia until the 125 miles are completed, or well advanced, thus preventing any undue increase in the price of labor. To carry consiruction westward from Manitoba across the Prairie Region only as settlement advances. In my report of last year, I placed the cost of the section between Lake Superior and Red River at $18,000,000. Since that date the steps taken to keep down the expenditure on the 185 miles between English River and Keewatin have been so far successful as to reduce the length about 3 J miles, and the estimated cost fully $500,000. • Report on the British Columbia Section, 22nd November, 1879. Extrsicts:— " The total sum of the lowest tenders for the four sections, as ab'^ve stated, is $^,167,040. It will be borne in mind that the chnraef cr of the contract to be entered into is materially different from ordinary contracts. This sum ropre.sents the ma.ximum— the contract is not to exceed the amount, but it may be very much less. (See clauses 5, 6 .and 7.) ''Those who made the sur'feys and calculations inform me that the quantities are very full, and that in actual execution they can bo largely reduced. I am convinced, moreover, that by making an extremely careful study of the final location, by sharpening the curvature in soma places, by usirg great .judgment in adjusting the alignments to the sinuosities and sudden and groat irregularitie.' of the ground) by substituting the cheaper classes of work for the more costly whenever it can safely be done, and by doing no work whatever that is not absolutely necessary, a very marked reduction can be made." 99 le- di- Dtal rne ary tt it uU, by me nd tly mry. The rails for these two contracts have likewise been R( cured at a consideralily lower price tlian the estimate. Whatever an increasing tratiie in tnture years may demand in the way of terminal acoommodatifm and rolling' stock, I am confident the line can be opened for traffic between Fort William and Selkirk, well equipped for the busi- ness which may then be expected, at n cost not exceeding $17,0()o,0()().^ West of Red River, 100 miles have been placed under contract, and tenders have been received for a second 100 miles section. These two sections are designed to bo constructed and Kjuipped in llu; most economital manner, dispensing with al' outlay except that necessary to render the railway immediately useful in the settlement cf the country. It is intended that the line be partly ballasted, to render it available for colonization purposes, full ballasting being deferrtd until the traffic demands high speed. It is intended tn provide sufficient rolling stock for immediate wants, postponing full ( luipment until the country becomes populated, and the business calls for its increase. On this basis and the other data furnished, the rai'way may be opened from Lake Superior to the Pacific Coast within the following estimate : — JFwt William to Selkirk (406 miles) with light gradients, in- cluding a fair allowance of rolling stock and engineering during construction $1 7,000,000 Selkirk to Jaspar Vitlli>y (1,000 miles) with light equipment, etc. 13,000,000 Jaspar Valley to Port Moody (550 miles) with light equipment, etc : — Jaspar to Lake Kamloops, 335 at ,*43,660 $15,500,000 Lake Kamloops to Yale, 125 at $80,000 10,000,000 Tale to Port Moody, 90 at $38,888 3,500,000 $29,000,000 Add 1,000,000 $30,000,000 Total miles, 1,956 $60,000,000 The above does not include cost of exploration and preliminary surveys through- out all parts of the country north of Lake Nipissing to James' Bay in the east, and from Esquimault to Port Simpson in the west, between Latitudes 49° and 56°, not properly chargeable to construction, $3,119,618, or the Pembina Branch, $1,750,000, or with •other amounts with which the Pacific Railway account is charged. I have the honor to be, Sir, your obedient servant, SANFORD FLEMING, Engineer-in-Chief. The Engineer-in-Chief to the Minister of Railways and Canals. Canadian Pacific Railway, Offick of the Engineer-in-Chief, Ottawa, I6th April, 1880. The Hon. Sir Charles Topper, K.G.M.O., Minister of Railways and Canals. Sib, — In compliance with your directions, I have the honor to consider the cost of the eastern section of the Pacific Railway extending from Thunder Bay, Lake Superior, to the eastern terminus, Lake Nipissing. In my report recently laid before Parliamnnt, I have referred to the projected line between South-East Bay, Lake Nipissing, and Sault St. Mary. The explorations of this district have established that a location can be had north of Lake Nipissing, which would be common for 60 or 70 miles to the St. Mary's branch and the main trunk line to the North- West. As thi St. Mary's branch will, in all probability, be constructed before the through line is undertaken, the length of the latter will bo reduced by the length of the location common with the two lines. The eastern 100 terminus will consequently bt) advanced some 60 or 70 miloB to the west, beyond th& theoretical Htarting-point at Lake NipisKing. Tho length of the eastern section therefore, may be assumed not to exceed 600 miles. It is impossible to say what labor and materials may cost some years hence, when the period arrives for the eastern section to be undertaken. Taking the basis of present prices and present contracts, and adheriui; to the economic principles of (jonstruction set forth in the letters of yesterday, I feel warranted in stating that $20,000,000 may be considered a fair estimate of the cost of opening the line front Fort Willliam to the Eastern Terminus. In order that the estimates of the cost of the line from Fort William to the Pacific, and from Fort William to the Eastern Tciminus near Lake Nipissing, bo clearly understood, I deem it proper to submit the following explanations : — I have, in previous reports laid before Parliament, advocated a location for the railway with geiieriilly light gradients and other favorable engineering features. The policy of the Government, as stated in your letter, likewise the change of line by the abantlonment ot the old location west of Red River, render it necessary on my part to modify the views I have previously held. The estimates now submitted are based on the new conditions and the data to which you refer, viz. ; on contracts recently let for four sections in British Columbia, and the reduction to be made thereon ; on the contract for the first 100 miles section west of Red River ; on the accepted tender for the second 100 miles section west of Red River ; and on the assurance made by the Engineer who contlucted the surveys in the Prairie Region, that there will be no more costly 100 milt-s section between Manitoba and the Rocky Mountains than the second 100 miles section west of Red River ; that hence this section may be taken to be representative of the whole work to the base of the mountains. I have likewise estimated the amount of rolling stock as limited to the extent considered absolutely necessary lor colonization purposes, and I have not overlooked the fact that the transportation of rails and other mate- rials, aiter our own line from Lake Superior to Manitoba shall have been completed, will be reduced to nominal charges to cover actual outlay, instead ot the very high rates we have been compelled to pay by the railways in the United States. It must be borne in mind that if the present defined policy with respect to the gradual progress of the work be modified, or if the extent of the work be difi"erent from that assumed, or if its general character be altered, the cost may be affected by the change. The same result may be looked for if a higher price has to be paid for materials, or lor labor, and if through these or other causes, the contractors failing to perform what they have undertaken, the work in consequence has to be relet at higher j)rices. Under these circumstances the cost of the whole line may be increased. The cost may be enhanced, moreover, if the location of the line be placed in tho hand.s of careless or inetficient men, who may fail to exercise the prudence and judg- ment called for, or who may neglect, througii want of care or skill, to lay out the work with regard to economy. Or if the supervision of the contracts be lax, so as to admit of the possibility of work not absolutely required being ^..xecuted, or of pay- ment being made in excess of work performed, increase of cost will result. From first to la.st the strictest economy will have to be enforced, and rigid control exer- cised over the expenditure. The estimate submitted is based on the data set forth, and on that data the whole main line, from Port Moody, on the Pacific coast, to tho Eastern Terminus, in the neighborhood of Lake Nipissing, may be constructed, in the manner and under the circumstances referred to, for about $80,000,000. But to meet any of the possible contingencies to which I have referred, I beg leave to re- commend that, in considering the subject of capital required for the undertaking, a liberal percentage be added. I have the honor to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, SANDFORD FLEMING, Engineer''in'ChiiJ. Bfll