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Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la m^thode. 1 2 3 4 5 6 $iou$e of (Commons 30cbate$ SECOND SESSION- -ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT SPEECH HON. GEO. E. FOSTER UN THE BUDGET OTTAWA, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1909 Hon. GEORGE E. FOSTER (North To- ronto). Mr. Speaker: With the concludirn; remarks of the Finance Minister (Mr. Fii'lil- ing), I find myself, ,ts I am s'lre do all hnii members on this side, in r )n,plotc accord. It is a fact that sometimes pnrty liiffcr.'nciv are exasserated and party spirit le:ids to :i one-sided and <'vpn unfair [iri\-ji>ntation i.i matters before the House. But when, apart trom these things, we come to contem- plate the larger questions of country and of empire,_ I hope that we may always be in a position to reciprocate the sentiment that has fallen from the lips of rho Min- ister of Finance. I notice that the hon. Minister of Finance appeared a little ni Te cheerful wIkmi he rose lo liri;serit his loid- frct speech this yenr tliaii on a piniilar occa- sion liist y"ar. Ciretinisf ances have some- what ohanjed, and what was presented to his mind last year, as being to a certain extent allied with doubt and uncertainty has partly cleared a-vay. The hon. gen- tleman has had a respite, I hope it will he long continued. Tlii' country has liad a respite from " eompar.'itively short i>eriod of strinL'cnt finance and disturbed traile. I only hope that the Minister of Finance and the government with him, will irniiriive the lesson taught by that even short perin,' of financial stringency and will incline tiieir hearts more to boainesslike and 10210—1 economical administration of the country's affairs in the future. Now, I am not sjoing tn follow the Minis- t T of Finaneo throu^rh all the somewhat lenirthy remarks which he has made, con- sirtniLT very largely of tables of fipurts, but I sliaU endeavour to touch on a h-w of these points liy v.ay of passing remark. Reduced to eolloquia! lanixuacre, the year 190!) may he deseril'i' I soniewliat in this vvhv: The trade fell off a little over $07,000,000; the revenue fell off about $11,000,000; the ex- penditure increased by $21,000,000, $7,500.- 000 on consolidated fund account and $13,- 500,000 on capital account; the surplus, which was count"d o:i as liein? .SL-oiiCOon, fell to $l,000,(M'O. At flmt time, the old method of chariring bounties to cajntal in- terposed in favour of the .Minister of Fin- ance. The amount paid in bounties was $2,500,000, and this being charged to capi- tal, he was enabled to count a surplus of $1,000,000. Had that, the amount paid in bounties, ' een paid out of revenue, as it was under the preceding government, the minister would not iiave had a surplus of even $l.(iiiiHMMI. but would have had ,a de- ficit of i .."iCHXOOO. It IS siunilicant that. althou.Lrh there had been previous moni- tions civen in good time and somewhat strongly to the business men of the coun- try and to every chancellor of an exchequer. easite « 2 til" FiiKiiu-i' Miiii-stiT .■imoiu:-t other, wiirii- i,i - th' tn wli.'it viis iipivrimchins and wmiM ii'iliiinlv cuiiio. w.- IIimI the untounil- inK fuct that the estiniateft of CiiniKhi. pro- vided by the Minister of Finance himself and hia governnifut, worr tlio l:irL'"-t in tlio j liistory of Ciiiiuda, aiul tlwit the 1 turi' c.itur ti. th," huni of $ i;>:i.iHiu.o(Ki, whu-h ; ii H litlli' inorr than thr.-" finio.-^ what it , WHS in l-'.'O 1111(1 !iij;h-wati r iiiarl< ni juiiilu' exiiL'iulituri! in this countrv. That is a sijr- niliraiit coniiufiit upon thi! extraordinury wiiv in wliich thfi minister st-llied liiuisfif to meet tlie storm which was to bri'ak— lie did it by lurtrer estimates, iiu reased imposts (countiiijl as imposts wliat is taUen out of the pockf'ts of the p.-oplc) nnd incr.-i.sed expenditure. That, 1 think, \va,= not a rea- sniKiI'le wav. The niinir-tiT nii'-'iit Jiave aiidnl to the" iinamidl streiu-'tli of this coun- iiy vi-ry materially li he had done us every husiness man in tlie eountry did, as tile clrineelhir of every exchequer that I know I)' :d, as any pruiient business man would do curtail in the face of the storm tliat was yet to come and yo s.ive in that way what hp could of the stren-th and en -lit >-i tlie rouii- trv's fiiianecs. That lo' did not d". As a re-ult. of that same ve.ar, th'Te wa- ad- ,litiM|, In th,' imiiiir drUt of $.ir,.oi!;i.ooo. tli.. hir-fst addition to th.' onldie .l.l.f win-'h this Country has evor seen, and whudi mn-ht liave iii r ii cut in two— yes, might have ln'on diminished even more tlian that liy roa- souable and not at all impossible^ econo- mies in the administration of the (inancis by the MiiTir-'er of Finance himself. When we cjme to the year 1910, trade is gaiiiio'-', the revenue is inereasinK; i\w. ex- jionditnre- tlial wii' - isti-r pro; 1 hoije I will prDVe be very heavy ;ot quito know whether li Tlie Finance Miii- .eve that it will not; uati'.ins in thi.'' respect . t, at least, there will penilitures. Last year, there were Idige borrowings by the Minister of Finance, amounti;i(j to £25,000,000 or £26.000,000 for which this country want into the m;irket within a very limite,! time, thi^ yi-ar also borrovv incs w ill take* place ; ajid thi' result of last year's i.orrowiUL's, the way in wdiieh and the time at which thoy Wi re carried on. the result of thi' utter lack of any prudent foresight a year or a veiir and a half before, vas that, whereas Canada's credit had so improved that her Vxirrowins rate had declined tc 2-8 per cent in 1897, the cost now has pone up to very nearly 5 per cent, a point beyond the aver- age cost durinfT the first fifteen years of the administration r.f tho iinaiicial affairs of this Dominion. Whi-n we come to IDll. the Ministi'r of I'inane.' h:is vcrv little to say. The main ostiniati s call for $127,000,000. There are to be additional borrowings; what these may amount to we do not know. Besides tlie additions to the debt of last year and of thin year, there will be :j;other addition in 1011. Well, what, utter all, has saved the Finance Miiii«teri' Ha.s it bcm the exercise of anv very Kreat [.ruduneo of his i.'wn'r Has r lioen the di-i'iay of rxtraordi;iury skill a.il capacity in tiie management of till- hoanccs- Has it hen any intrinsic merit if'^ni a business [mint 'jf view of the itdmiiiistr;ition of the government itself? Not in any sense, nut in the least. What has saved the government and what has saved the country was jjointed out liy a ;.'eutlenuiTi who is not a Minister of Fi- nance or the leader of the [larty, who id not at all a partyliian in the position in whic!! h ■ makes tlie utterance. Tie vu.'e- prc.-id>nt and manau'er of tlie Hank of .Montreal, in a very lew sentences, hit the nail e.\actly on tile head. What has inter- vened, and what has brought about Uie ohanfje, and what has set this government and the riuauvP Minister on their feet aL'ain so far as the business of this coun- try is concerned? Why, it has simply been 111.- work and the product of the farmers of th;- ( (.'iintrv. The vice-president of the Hank • r' .MonCeai poii;t.d out I. 'tin l'.)nu Uie pro- 'l:i:t of the Northwest am mted to .TJ.OOO,- ■»'o i.usliels, in l'.)U7 it had 'sen to 160,000,- uou Imshels. iu 1908 it *a8 232,000,000 bushels, and in 1909, 313,500,000 busliels. That is the explanation of the whole mat- ter; that explains exactly how the short- comin'„'~ and blunders of the administration iiave ! '11, if not entirely offset, minimized and miti;-'ated to the exceeding great relief of the eountry itseif. There is an increase of cil.uoo.nuo bushels in the Northwest alone m a siiiKle year. That is worth at least ■^.'iii.otHi.iKjo. and maybe more. The prices that are obtained this year were never bet- ter, iuid the increased prices received for tiie product, interjected into the veins of business, is what has really regenerated this country, and si t us on again to a perio'i of, we hoi>e, continuous prosperity. .Now wii.'it particular praise and wliat par- li 'iilar honi.nr are ilnc to the ailministra- o f' T tliaT'- 'I'hejr iiier( .ised products ■t uha: n the nortliwest jirovinces. hiiUt meiiK.ries— who was it and openeil up that coun- \\ c i that try? Who was it that put the first great transcnntinpnta! railway throueh that coun- try, and so made possihle transport facili- ties, and a he.hitaiif.ii and a working place f< r the farmer'" .And where were these I'fntlemen in that iieriod? To-'iny they an leajiim; the harvest. I do not oliject to tliai , t'lank (iod that the harvest is as izenerous as It is. But let no one run away with the idea that because tliis help has suddenly ccme as a manna from Heaven to these eentlemen in their great straits, therefore some mighty skill, some deep inborn in- 911269 8 (^i.'iiiiily, p iiiK.' iiio.'-t I iivcrfiil iiiiil wi'tuicrful f.MTris,. i.f liiixini -■* hiwiits 1.-^ will! .'iftf.i tlif iMUiitiy iiiid SCI'.:, it. iiK'ain on ;t.- U'jiiUKiu'. I'Vir Ukjoc wli.it have tiit-.-if ^■'jutlouieii dotio? Do not tlii'ir clothea cost Uiem more Umn they did un h r the old regime? Do they not have tu |iay nioro for their lumlior for every shnck and every house they build? Is not their hard- wnre more coat'v to thcni than it i ver was I't'fore? And wiuMi tlipy oome to t' • bilniur wliitli hiif t" !n.'li> thciii Id ti:! thi-ir lield.'*, uiicii li;ui' tiny liti'i tu pay liiucli fur it as tliev ilo a", thr priv^int time? As to giain price.", "f cuir.-c the i_"ivrrniiR'iit ciin do iiolh; 4. In what ."ins-u tlu-n has this irovernment's administration lielped to lift the countxy out of the fiIoii;_'h of <1' spond, and bring it into the blessings 01 thi' iironiised land? So I say it is the iiiTi.'iti' uinliiy urn! \irtiii- cf the toil of the 11 .■|:.\. .-:. it i^. Un- .sIiciil; arm iin faiieil to dij since they came into iiower. Where is the reciprocity witli the I'nited States ttiat the hoii. m-ntleni.tii was i;re i> the ffoal of free trade as it is in Ensrlainl i.nder the administration of this Paul the .Apostle, who hut a few years aL'o was a rasinL' .'^aul of Tarsus, poincr up and down, firidi:'-' fault with .'.ii I denouncing' the pol- icy vif protection ir- tw one end of Canada til another? My riLdit hon. friend, after the homily which was iire-iehed v> him to- day, the stron;:cst I have heard in this House in a sreat many years, I suppose still has his face pointed towards the goal of free trade at it is in England, with no possibility of getting nearer to it wiUiin his natural life. Well, Sir, we wl „■ to have many other thin^rs. We were to have a market open for us everywhere. What markets have they 1 10810— li f.pened to us' Some m.'irkits have lieen closed to IIS. in .ithers the r:iti s h.ive heen • used upon us. No foreiu'U market in ' •(■. rid has yet been opened tu us i.y tlii-i a?^re),'ation of all the talents in llie thirteen years duniisr which they ave been in power. If it can be I iiamcil, let it be named. Some of our j own sisters, the sub-nations ot the em- ; ; ire, have granted us. as we h,i-, e L'raiifed tliMiii. certain preferenti.i ; privi.i'.;es; but outriile of that, there is not ;i natiiai in the wid world, out.'^ide of treaties which had i ( 1 11 made before, into which any ingress has lieeii i;iven by t'lese gentlemen for the i products of iiur country. I Oh, yes, there is the French treaty, not I '•'^t operative, but soon to go into opera- i tioU. But the burden o! the fat cattle " hich the Prime Minister a year ago j shouldered into this House with great pride and pomp, when he appealed to the ' ffirniers of tiiis country as to wdiat ihe . I r. neh tri aty wouM do for them, the bur- den of fat cattle has been dumii"d, the ■loekers are tin' only ones that are left, and j they will liave a jolly time c-etintr into the French m.'irket, over a tariff of .■mywhere i fi-om $iri to $20 per hoaii, and the uncer- I tainty as to what int«rpretatioa of the ! tariff may be made by those who have the i sole reeulating power as to the entrance of our cattle into French port.-. So we have iiot L'ot very mucli from that. But we have i leaded ourselves with .$-2()0,non a year for a .-teainship subsidy to be paid to vessels runniiiL' between this country and France; that i-i in ten years $2.ni)o,iwin which my hon. friend the Finance Minister did not \ t:.kc into account, and which has to be pro- ] vided for Well, there are some other nss that have not heen done. The stati of trade between the I'nited States and (Ireat I'.rit- iiiri and Canada, remains unrectified. That condition of thines was very s. verely cen- sured by my ric'lit hon. friend the- I'rime .Minister and his coadiutors in tlie olden time.-. They tolj us that it was neither patriotic nor loval that wi- sheiuld be buy- ing more from tlie United States than we were buying from Great Britain, and sell- InL' less to the ITnited States than we honirht from the United States. They loud- :v called fnr a tariff which would rectify lhat and put u~ in a better position. How do we stand to-dav? In 191)8 we bought from the I'nited States .$204,000,000 worth. Thev bomrht from us $00, 000. 000 worth, wherein the balance ot trade aL-LTOsated the sum total of $U4,Ofi0.noo. In 190ft the unfavourable balance was reduced to $85,000,000, but the trade is now going un and, as it (roes un, the adverse balance with the United States will also increase. On the other hand. Great Britain bought frcm us a much larger amount than die 4 sold to UK. und eave us la»t year a favour able halance ot trad.- of $65,500,000. Ai v uMf Tiers that Ihc Imliinco of triiile wlii.li is fiivournl'li" in ttu- vnff of (irfiil Ifrituiii. Ims t.i L'-. tn III'' ••\tcrit (if $"M.r>(Hi.t l jr,l),(N)«),(K)() to Ix' I'lii'l f'T ill >"iii'' iitlit r wiiv. 'I'h" ("lint 1 v.\^\' u< iiiiik'' 1- that llii'^"' li' ll. i.'1'ntli'- iiK'ii huvf nut rrctilii'il tlmt t-Tiivc condi- tion ot thines which they censured in our time, but that iindor thoir administration Jt has been cnlar-"'! and ii'.'-fravalcd to the desnree whicii 1 avi' stiite*!. T i-day there is iin iidvi-r Ipiiliiiice (jf trade with F'riiiu''' of "0. with (Innmiiv o( $-l.ri(iii,ti()(i. \,itli S ith AiiM'rica .1 .fl.iHiO.- 000, iiii'l v, ilh till' \V ' n. "entleiiien who have so lowered the duties --to listen to theiii;"lves— their duty is -T li; per cent, as aL'ainst an average of 28 .3o j,f,r eont fr"!n 1879 to 1896. But taking mto account, a.i I have a riudit to do, the bounty which M a Hpecial form of protection and which th.'V take out • f the trensiiry of the lountrv, i find that in V.m th.-y have a rate of Iier cent, ar.d so they hav" actually ri'iuced the rate of duty e\:u'lly H'.i-iiiotlin of one pi'r cent fr m the aveni;;e "I ls:'i-i>'06. Now. 1 acrrpc with my hon. friend in hii tateiti'ent with refereno to the natur.* of ;ie luessai/e which was .'^ent to Conjnresa » little while aso by I'resident Taft. It was a reasonable mpusatr". it was a Htat««man- like mes> '.!je. it was a messii'.'e which eave. f think, to all ii.iintries the ri--!it to lie- lieve tliat whil t Pr.'si'ient Taft ati l his cabinet remain in |".w.t tb'Te will l)e no seekin'_' for trouble with reference to the malt' r of discriminatory and compensatins .lutii'S I do not think a message could liave been fairer than his was on that point, and I ipiite ai-'rof with the Finance Min- ister in his characterization of what we may conclude from a perusal of it. Ml .'ist, we will hope that it shall not be made 1 an instrument of even iiienae" to us in Ciiiiida It ninains. however, that the fniti-'l States tariff, (uitside of President Taft i !itire!v, lias already penalized Canada with r' ten nre to tier exports of both pulp/ and paper anl has done that because off the conservina policy of the provincci of Ontario and Quebec which are looking to the preservation of their forests. Bn much then in reference to the United State's, althoii 'h this fact remains, and we niiijht iu.st a-^ well state it, that the tariff of the I'nited States,, as cunipared with the tariff nf Canada, does not U'ive to Canada that fair trade to which she is entitled. Th re is another situation in the trade point of view which is extremely interest- ing at the present time. That is the aitu- ation in Great Britain. I am not goin.;; to discuss British iiartv politics for a single moineiit. but I think it is well for us to kei |. a f'-w facts in mind, ft is not more lliaii live years afro, cerlairdy not more ili.'in :ii\- years a<.'o. that tli' riirht Hon. los' ph (."haniherlain first promulgated his view, and a view not eiuiroly and com- pleteiv formed at that time, of what he thou'.'h.t nii'-dit be or ought to be the fiscal relations of the mother country with the different jiarts of *he empire and of the dif- ferent i>arts of the empire with each other. Not more than five or six years ago did that i'b a receivi' the countenance and sup- port of a llrst rate British statesman. Fiv or six v. ars a.™ a first rate British states- man |iioimi!'jateil that idea in the face of a free trade F.ngland which had been free trade for forty or fifty years, and there did not then seem to be any great i>robability that such an idea would I'revail. But five or siK years have passed and what do we find. So rapid has been the change in pub- s iipiiiion, so rapid the proj.TPKs' o( events. strriiiL'ly liiis the (|UpRlion of empire hikI til • !r. .ilriit iit .liii- til fill* (liffiTriil par»< of lli. • iripm.' ulU.'ii . .Ill of the pcopli' of (iri'iit Hiiliiiii Mii'l (Me i tnpirc, tliat to-day tilt' Houth Afrienii ( olonii-i n pri fereiii't' to tilt) mother country. New Zeuiand gives u prefi ri'iice to the mother country, Aui- trnlia fivpsi a prefere' (o the mother r(ini!"\-. (';imh1ii L'ivcs ■ferencc to the iiinili r coUMtry. iiiul \vf ) c at tlie present tinii' in the niotlier coniiiiy itnelf. ntie of tlie .'reat historic political parties enteritiir into Mn electoral content n.. which the firat plank in their t'latforrn t:iril'f reform, with thi' avowed pnrpo.Jc ci ii^in^' a to I'ivc to the colonies pfoferential treatment. That marks a rapidity of movement a;.d cliaiiL'e in the fiscal ideas of the motticr oonnlrv iind the empire which one would scarcely have ventured to prophesy a lew '.i.ifA aL'o. And whether the I'liionitlts or till' I.iherals lire Sll(■ce-^^ful iu the com- inu' election - and I ilo tiot suppose :inv one | wislies to liaziird an opinion as t. whieli [ it will lie— I do not think it i- uoin ' too ; far to say that the time is appreciably near j when the policy of Great Britain will he me v.hich will enable her to cive to the colonies .'i tneafuro of preferential treat- ment in return for the measure ef prefer ■iiti:il tri-.-itment wliich the colonie.s have ■ iv.n to her, N'ow. while 1 have evi'ry svimialliv wit!' the Minister of I''in.Tiice in Iiis enili'iivour. if 111! makes honest en- deavour, to advance the frnde of Canada with other countries, T think it will be wise to he verv carefui in these different necotiatinra tint, we do not tii' our hands muie.ossarily • ' i make it more dif- ficult for iM to r ito tbiit kind of part- nershr vifh ' .1 h,.r iintry, \\hi<-h, when • ehaii_- - - in >• fiscal policy which .lill en.-:h r ' she will offer ,. iin. He .e w.- ;'wr line to eaiti locally by an entra into tlie mar- kets nf Oreat ■Rritain in referred I asi? It is not ni .'ssi^ry ■ 'nnre thp ask tint i|ilest : no Ve' onlv have v.e li.eall'. iv 'in 1 i, believers i < ; 1 ' \ er- re we know that the em [ire ha ijain by unitinL' its scattered Don a -e dose- iy together. In the way of ■ .i.i> fi^' ; yni[)athy and '^'reater practical inter n the way of uniting more closely all t£ -lembers of the empire one to the other .'ch to all we have very much to u'aii: erei- 1 say that it is well that the Mii - of i •■- ance and the eovernment sh ui: sio\ in makins any entanelinR ab,:tn. -r ■. with other countries until at !■ more lislit upon what may take the future in Oreat Britain. Of may be said that we make these subject to abrogation on certain but it is equally true that it is m liiiilt to ■■ive iiotiee of abroi/ation than it in to eii'i r into a commercial treaty in the lii^t pl.i. No,-,, sonie pe.iiile ii.sk tb'' nues. Ii' 'i: Do vuii miMin to miv that nny power I \!sts whicli ran make a tariff for (,unada ■-! li. of the imrliament of Canada itself, anil are you wiliinf; to Ko into any arrange- ment ef that kind. The question may be fuirlv iiiswer'Hl in this way: There is no boilv I h can make a ':iriff for Canada "III - 'I ' I I the parliament of (';uiaila itself, but tiiat ili'l lint bar the iiarliament. of Can- :i la il-'lf ironi lmvuiu preferential treat- ment to (Sreat Uritain, and to .Xu-'tralia, Old to the West liiilies, aixl to Xeiv Zea- l.iiiil. and neith 'r will it bar the parliament of the United Klmrdom, from giving to Can- ada or .Australia or New Zealand or any other of t!> over-seas Dominions a prefer- t iitial eiitr iiice into her market. There- fore, tlie l|lle^tion of having' to submit to some outside inthority before you ca!i have the advantau'es of pr' fereiice is ailioretln'r \ i^ioiiary, l''.aeh conipoie nt |iart keeps its ai. solute autonomy and independent power of deeidins what its tariff shall be, each Irek.i over the field and as its circumstances allow and its sympathies and its interest* direct it ^ives to the other member of the f.iniily n preferred entrance in whatever manner it mav deem wise. I do not know !o,'it anv imperi il preference man; I have le v. r le .'ird of one yet w ho has advocated tlial miller p'c.-ent conditions any other m. tho.l of fifor« he j had to r«l»«> Im h>M\* l.j such t xtraor.iin did at the very Inast. In thof Iwu .vuy», i aty p^Miirni ' *• •■ " - ' by niakin'; pruv^ii'ii in time l.i f.ire the j iiii-rit ti. »ho\ hurrv iind tin' ■iir' Himiis ccinditioii of thu : cri'dit just :w ll" Willi!'! li.'iiii; liurni; Ypnrs. liiMiki t put hliu III th'' V' •■ wiir.-t poHition, iin.l ' (1 h T l.v iMt I .111-' ' ..liiiurdiii- ary i ,,li:n;ili s l.iit rallii-r c -urtmu' tu fcun- I'tiiiial iiM'l 1 -1 1 Atriiviiirant eKtimatea he shi.uKl have pri'iarcii to iiu'ft tho Mtring- enoy. hi thimu two i>olnt* 1 ihirik the min- ister fniled. An a remilt what took place? The mlnist'T sm , x Iip lina . nt duiniiRi d the j IhTfl-lSW cnvllt lif till' coimtrv I not think that | 1K97-I9e9 intriiiM.-:i!lv :1h' >■ .try has .•en struck a fill-,! i,| ,n 111 ili.ii 1. , t. ' -It this iiiiU'li is liiii- that tlh' l-'iIiaM-!' Mh,. t.-i. Iiy lii.-i MUtlh.ils, liati lint iiii|ircivc',l tli- tiiiaiicial (■oii'liip'ii iif 111"' I'liuiilry. Tim; tic haii not iiii|.r..^i 'I ll is cn.siiy proved by the two fai t.s ti) ..lie of which 1 huve alluded with ri's|)tct to his loans. In thp firai pi >ce, he has paid niid lias been for tlie las^ year !l I thi'ik, 11 viTV L'o.iil arK' tlinl he ill I ii'il liiid Ciinnda .- ra^iy iiiid ai wi'll i- JfalilMlicd Iry tn jiiaKr ii.-i !.. li. vf. Tiia .• \vi!I illii.-trati' li . :i' it in mind tliat It'JV-l'.NC) were Liberal government yearg: AiiKiiii.t Ttrokrraffe borrmviil, paid. . . £2t;.f'l,l.lM)0 20,831,398 m,m Com- nii"ion piiiii. i:2tt.91H 3*7.327 I:m paid by librral ^inrrnment t 5,270 _nd ii half paying' the hiRhcst intcrc.-' nil Icnils that iia.i .'V«'r bi'Oii paid in tin' liii<- t TV f C ina ia Hi- 'las rr-.iTr^rd tin .inwn- i It- I,, I ai ffi-ni tiic i"lt>r naiih- • ,.|i ,:• I'aiia.l an liiiaiu'r.i and Canadian I n-i;i. -- V M!( !i ..!, .«... I li-.-tn l^Tn ,\: \'.n t-- 1894, and rvaclu -l lli.' l.iw tif-'urv ol - ^- p, I- , it in 1 ''7 II - liaiJ rovrsii'd that aiul rat.--^ havr ciniibvd until now he isi settiriL' viTV little money at 3J per cent and \i pavin;' vi-ry rlose to 5 per cent for most of the ni v that he has burrowed nf Inte and that li- will lik'Iy barrow in the future. In Ha' ■^.-mnd place, see thi' extraiT hnary iia-t.h.'i.|<< to which he had !" Iiavr r - .I'lr^" in .ird. r to iri't his money It ia a fact that the loans fmni I'^Tfi to 1894 on the British rnark.-t mad" by Canada amounted to £26.1)4a,0tH), while those iiiai Ic from 1897 to 1909 amounted to £20.831.398. The broke-aKe that was paid bv Finance Ministers for the former loans 'aninnnt.d to £55.718. The com- mission |ia! 1 i.n these loans amount<^d ; t.. i-J14,fi!f;. 'I'hnt was under* the old \ limes Avh.-n Canada's credit was not sn\'- ' [-.o-.- i to lie as I'Oud it inisiht be 'inw i with the L'reaf 'Ii-vi-lnpini'iit '-f 'his country, j The l-'inanc" Minister from If»!>7 to 1909 has | pone into the British market for i-io,"-'!!.-! ' £6.000,000 less than the precedini.' li-ur j whicli I have nientioned. On that he has , paid a brokerB'jo "f £r,n.iws, and a eommis- ! sion of £.'i47,.T3i1. Hi- has paid nmri' in \ Excho- ■1, and lav asiil" ,i l er- ar for the exfin?uish- !eht. that when things til,' treasury was full less nuantity iii-rrnw . -1. In- Added to'_'i't,^ii-r he has jiaid ■IftS.'i.OOO more for less borrowings than the amounts paid from 1879 up to 1894. And this, too, a!- thom-h he has durins the lafor period hail the iidvantase of a much niore favourable Vrokerase contract made with the Bank of ■,f<-,ntT?a! in ISM That, I say, is an ex- time* of buoyar taki • 'cm by th- quer ., 1reat Rrit.. tain amount each ;- ment of the public were iirnspcrous and and the revenues win- buoyant it was a iro id time to .strengtlien the refceryes of the countrv by layinp aside something as a -iiikiirL- fiind and to -liniinish our vnst licht, Tn-ilay we are carryini: a debt of .$;!'J.'>.OiiO.Oi»i ' Xi-xt year that -will he still i'ar--i-r. :;nd tl;-' year after that lnr-.:er than liefore, and it does sci-m io me to be a fair point to take that out of alntndant revenues soiiiethin'.,' should be done in order to dim- tl.i-J.tl-l I inish the rmblic debt, pive confidence to the lender.s in the old coiintry and at least make our ncknowledpment of an oblif;ation to pay the principal as well as to pay the interest On our borrowincs. The country will also have to borrow during the suc- ceeding year. I find that in 1910. some $38,- 500.000 are to be met in maturing loans; 7 |U,l)0O,(XX) • f tlii* will hp covemi by aiiik- Inj? fumlK will lrav(> ahwt $VM '"XUVMI nr f'tiMMtiKKi t" l>« lii.rrowfil. Tli ' f.r ni'i uririL' •! 'it iiN'Ti'', uini t.') A, I "HI lun til I"' ni.'l IIS ii niahiiiiii! 1 iLii, .iii'l ^' ill iKtVi' to Im rr"wi'il. Ill \\<\-i. .-i'.'iM.ilKl.lKHI, Hiiil 111 I'.il.t. IHMJ liuvf to Ix- llK't 111 tlif \wiy of nia iiriiii; loaiia. All Umt is in addition to wliiit nmy bp tiptossiiry to bij burruweil for tho com- plrli.'ti of (111- (iriiii.l Trunk I'aoifip t.iilwHy. Till' Kiiiiuii'i' Minister in hi* stali-iiu-iit of (Iclit iiiH.lr V. ry lit |.'. if Miiv, alliMinri to the iiMi_";it lull < ulii.-|i Crtii.i.la n uii'liT, My frii iiil from Qu'ApiHllf! (Mr. Lakf) by a cjuistion brought the minlBtet'i attention th.Ti'tc. rill- llMllU^•^. li.iwrv.T, sft littlp storp liy It, f'lr lie iliil not (onsiiler it fullicifiiUy import.int to make it an it<-ni in bin budBft. But it ii true that ('una.la i» luiil''.- obligations, and iiicroasin^' nlilijii- tioiis in thin respect. 1 liiid tl ' i..r \Ur ( 'iiiiailian Nnfllipni tluTf arc .'"irl- t f £ 1 .IfJ/t.-J:-*? at :i ['IT I ' rit u'lmraiitrr'.l, aii-l fi r till' :-ain'' riiluay i I .I'/J-J .W. at ;!} p<'r cent, jiriiii'ii an. I intiTrst, aii.l, £^l,l;l^l.(lUO is al- ri'aily (iuuranlffl for tin.' (ii.Liul Trunk I'acific; but, oouj^idtfinR that we luivr t.. provide for a (.'uarnntC'e of 75 per I'l iit of the wholp cost of the Mouiitniii Divi- sion, this obliittttion, before it is t'n>l< .1, will amount to a verv !ar;:p sum; ami. althouiih tlio Financ' Miiii^ti-r. may Im" tliink so, intr) whal. vi r iiiarki-t lif ;:or.<. not only will thi' ri'Vi'iiur; an I tlic peiuiituri'.'^ a:ul the iiuI.iUl' cli i>t I-.- t ikcti into consideration, but every obliijation that the Kovornment is under is scanned as woll, and scanned zealously, and s:of.* to make up the estimation of the credit of the country. At six o'clock House took recess. After Seceu. Mr. FOSTER. I wish now to rmke a few remarks, Mr. Speaker, on the -uhject of expenditures, a matter in wblcii. p-obab! ■ more than in any other, this l-ov. riinn has niadt danserous procross and h. shown a disiiosition to completely l.aek ujinn ali the pr^ i'.'ssions its party nia.ie in tlicir 'lavs ■ !.positi..n with n irard to priiiei|ilfS. nietliods ami eon- dition.s of expen liture. In inakinc these remarks on the expenditures of the sovernment, one cannot go so much into particulars as he would like; therefore I will confine myself to some general points. What first strikes us is the startling in- crease in expenditures from 1897 up. The ■■ 'inister of Finanee. this afte- ioon, in com- paring the two administrations in re! vtion to expenditure went on to show that tha ttieir t--rni!> ■•i ilillleiilt lor I IS .• I '. . rv •••!!(••. \\> ;.t th.' ih.it ;l nllluli- pff^i'Iit f n- ra! . xi '■nililnre-* provhled Ii (. nt 1' II' liy ili>' pre.ient u-ri ntiT tiinii that providi'd . rniii 'Ml' ihiriii :, ! - . . ! to !,,,.. O -'.T t:. .11 then for II.- v. Iinii ati.l a iihti* ;.'lane.- i!il 'lave .-'Iniwii him . . . jverntiifnt has taken Hoiii tin pfoplo hy rin ain of ia.xiitioti aiiout twice a.-( niuch an did the precedinij ffOVem" I- I nt. This U'lVermiH iit, therefore, had i o ir!v twice as much reverue at Its dis- |o^al, and if they made junt ah(^nt the , pr' |.ortiot;-iti' eliart,'!-* to ciiri ot rov- ,1111.-, tie- pore iiia^'es which wi ro < nil 'ii- . 1 i.v t!o- I'lnanro MmistiT w -u. i just ; lit . -t li ii-h ■ imi'ity In the twrivo and ■Ihr. iiPr 'I Mis liiriiiL' u!i"h loi- ai- iniiiistratioii has bi-rii in powi it has iikiii riiM.i)ei.',i;i»i in taxation Iruiii tha ,1 iiolr.. In I' la.-t tuolvo and tiiree- iiiiarti r years if the pn riMlin,' administru- tion they took only «340.01X),000. That is. the p'i sent .idnrnistration lias taken I'.ear- ;■ .i.oil.lo the aihown' in 'a\;;li n it their p!" !,.<■ --ors uid. aiel on tiio s.iino ; rini iio'' rnlo. ;!ii-> voiiM dnliur-'' a imi. h I irv. r a'lo.ui.t for what tho niiliistiT LaU:' , ipital an l .-i • , ial cxpi iniitiiro lint the Mnii.-l' r of Finiinfo spoke also the eoii- oitions oi tho dolit. and 1 won: 1 like to : rocai: iiis attontioii and tluit of l.o..' House i to a point which I mad.- in a preceding itlmte. Diirinu the incuniheiicy of the i ; iheral-Coiiaervative covenimeiit, $118,00(3,- was added to lln- puhlic do'.t. Of t!iat. , > in.iHiiMlOO was iiu'tirn d in a.liiiiii.' a very IviiHiahle sot to this Uoiiiin.on in tiie i '.. 1111 of 7.."iou,tKK) acres of land in the west at I iilioiit $\.M an acre. If you count tho j \MKI.0OO of addition to tlio •iol.t on the ore I fide, you must look on the other sivle also and con.-ider the assets. No»v, the assets I 'hat ropresent debt in the Dominion of 1 Canada are not, as a rule, productive. Many ( f them, instead of beina prodiictive, are '. tlie very oppesite; thi.y :ire wasting' assets; !they are continually depreciating,- and re- oiirino not only the paynietit of interest Ml the hi-st in\o'-liiio|it, but the co.s* of up- • 'op ami aiaintonance. In tl-is case, an vet of real vi.lue was adde 1 to tlie coun- liy in the form of 7.000.0110 acres of land uiiich, it it lial ; II risi-rved to this . day would, countfil at tiir moderate price j of $8 per acre, represent a value of $60,- 000.000. Thit, when pointed out, any fair- I minded man would take into consideration, i And, in connection with that. l< t me ask i what live asset of af.y similar value has Uic present f^ovemmeiit a ided to the resourcos i of this country hy the aiMition <.i -iry similar, or even ;:reater. amount to the I public debt? They have been often in ' haste to get rid of the lands of this country 8 l.v si llinii them at remarkably smaH prices tc i'.ivoiiiites of the government. Here was a case in which the land was bought for the Dominion, and has remained and re- mains tulation, or in any other way tliat you niav mention. It is an inordinati' increase in expenditure. When you come ti.i the eolunni which represi'iits the expend- itures of the Libiral-CniiM-rvaUve party, \ou will find that in lfT3. to coinini'nce with that date which was about the time the Liberal ixovernnient came into powtT. the expenditure was 539,000,000. In 1880 when the Liberal Conservatives were ftirain in power, the tuta; i xpi'i'-iiture wa- $-34,- 0(10,000. Now fr..ni 1-- o U) !•-!>() w v p. riods of irrowtli, (if e\|.iiiisii.)ii, <'l builciitiL' lariT'' publi,' works, and it takes in tho besinnintr and the completion of the first transcon- tinental railway, namely, the Caniidian I'acilie railway. And Vet if you run Ihroudh the columns of fi;.'ures, you will find that the total expenditure keei.s iilonu' in the thirty and fortv millions. In l''~^0, as 1 have said, it was $:!4.00i),()00 ; in 18-87, $41, 0(H). 000, nnd from iss; to tin- aver- ai:-' t.ital expeieiiture w.as only t l-J.ooO.OOo. The <:reat works which had to )).■ under- taken and carried out, in the wav of the enlarpement of the canals, in buildins the CTanadian Pacific railway, in construction of the Soo canal, and in subsictizins and VniM'n3 other liranch liiie.s of railway, all that was undertaken and carrier! out, and vet the- abifilute total expenditure for all t.iivposes onlv increased from $34,000,000 in 1—0 to an averaire of $4-2.noii.00o from 1887 to 18%. Now theri' is no |>arallel between that and the expenditure by this covernment. Tlu' Finance Minister snys, we are also l>iiiMiivj a transcontinental railwav vou are, and vou have pa'd "ut to > iid ■ f the financial year some SSl.Otm.OOO for it. Rut do not for-et tlie fact that the Liberal- Conservative trovernment built the Cana- dian I'aeilic raiiwav. in so far as T'ublic aids were sriven. and that this increased the total expenditures by $62,600,000. but this government has increased the total dis- buxsements from $43,000,000 to $133,000,000 in twelve and three-quarter years. There- fore, there is no possible parallel between 1h(- two. Let me put it in another way. From con- federation up to the present date the Uo- iiuiiioM uf (.'unada has expeiiJed l,',i8,') nul- lum doUar.s. All the previous governments ue to 1897 e.\pe nded l,0ti3 millions Of that; this present govornmeiit, in its twelve and three-quarter years, has expended 922 mil- lions. That is to say, in twelve and three- quarter years this government has spi nt tn within 70 millions an amount equal to what the whoU' Uonunion of Canada spent in the preceding 29 years. Is not that going it some? It is a startling thing wnen vou come to look at the figures; 922 mil- lions in twelve and three-quarter years, l,tlG3 millions in the 29 preceding years. Hut srreat expenditures necessitate great taxation, .great income, or that I'ombiiiel V. ith greai borrowings. So what is tlie r.-eerd to-dav with regard to taxation: This, that :is regards receipts, 1,672 mil- lions have been •.;ath»>red from the Cana- dian pe<'ple since confederation, 828 mil- lions of this have been gathered in twelve ! i;d three-quarter years by this govern- I, lent, 844 millions was gathered in 29 vears by all the go-'ernments preceding this. So this present government has L'Mthered from the country. ♦ ing out of the pneUr'ts and enrtiines of the people, within 8 million dollars as much ns was taken out oi the pockets of the people for the 29 pre- (i Jing years. Now if you take the twelve and three- ipiarter years, what has been the average of population? Five and a half million Ireople in twelve and three-quarter years h;is han.ied oyer to this governmimt 823 million dollars, fir an average of »'..") mil- lions per year. Now the !Nfinister of l''inance m.ay nuike his divisions .and cal- culations with regard to the net debt, and set forth how much it is per head. That proves nothing. The point is: What are you taking out of the individual taxpayer of this country? What are you taking out to-day? $11 to $12 per head, whereas in 1896 we took out a little less than $5.50 per liead. This money you took out is money that e;imes from the man's earnings, it is so much ab- stracted from his capital. There ought to be no rea-un in the world for taking it except that it is ab.'^olutelv necessary that the aggregate of the people of this country should be governed and. thatj they should pay for it. Yet you have taken this im- mense ameunt of money. $65,000,000 per year during the last twelve and three- quarter yi iirs. or a totiil of 922 millions, and in addition to that ari> the borrowings you have provided for. Now when anv man looks around, goes through the books, looks around this country and asks what we have got for theOffl mil- lions of expenditure in twelve and three- 9 quartor years, ho fiiid- it dilTicuIt to answer that question. Whiit liave wc- !.'ot that stands and is useful to this country, and is either productive or stimulating? What have you? It is ii dcliMteil question as to wliother the Gr ui.l Trunk I'acific. as rc- Kards the portinu from I.ako Supiriur junction to Monctdii. is a stimulant to this country, or will be i.roiluctivc within vi-ry many yrars. But cv.n that rotiri'sonts to tlu' oiul of the jirrsont financial v. ar onlv .fal .iiOO.OOIl. Wliat have you to shov,- for tho $lvJ2.i>0ll.tKi0 less the •S.M .not), Olio, t' i;. has iicon spent ni Itie twelve ami I i; ■|iiarter years? Wc can- n'>t ' seapi from the conviction that mil- lions of It have Irceii worse sjx'nt than wiisteil. We arc in no condition to abso- lutely prove this, thanks to the repressive system of the trovernment. By a mistake tlie ijrovernment appointed a commission vhich went a little be.vond its contemplated duty and lifted the lid in one of the de- partments. It showed a department with- out business methods, with the grossest extravagance and with a lack of conscience. Arguing from that this side of the House pressed for an investigation in other de- partments. Why not? The other depart- ments are the stewards of the people, man- aging the money of the peoiile. Was there any reason at all why ihc people should not know how that money had hcen used, how these stewards had managed? If they had managed wisely, if they had expended that money properly, the people would have seen that they liad ilone .-o and would have praised them. What did the govern- ment fear? And .vet with absolutely simi- lar conditions, this side of the House and the p> of le of the l ountry were debarred en- tirely froin auditing, in any kind of a fair way of exanrination by inde]>endent parties, the $n'2-2,0t)().()0() which has been expended by this government in twelve and tliree- qnarter years. Now, Sir, T wish to say :\ little more as to specinl expemlitures. I take public A'orks. Tiie public Vvorks of this country, during the Liberal-Conserva- tive administration, had i>xpended upon them an average of $2.0(1(1.01)0 per year. W'lien this government came into power, for a few years it made an expenditure of about $4,0()0,tK)0 per year. Then a change took place and I am going to ssk the House, in the first place, to listen to a table, which will be printed in ' Hansard,' as to the progress of expenditures on con- solidated fund account in all of the de- partments and then make a few more ex- tended remarks in reference to one or two of these departments. The table is 98 fol- lows: CONSOLIUATKU FUND EXl'ENDlTUlfE. .\iiiiiinistr;itinn of Jus- tice -Vgricultural and Stii- ti.-tic3 ( 'ivil IJovemnieat Fisheries ( ieolo^cal Survey I Miini^rration (.Miaranriiie ... ! a(iian> ... I.eci^latiir*' Ijiirht Houses, &c Mail ami Steani.-'hip Sab^.l(Iie.- .Miiin.i ( keioi & Iii\«c Serviee . lVnM"ii^ Public Work.« Scientific Institutions. Cnltiftiun fit Rtntnte. (^IHtouis Uonnnion I^^inda Insiieotion Staples Past Office Public Works RailwayH and Canals . 1890. 1909. i B 9 p.c. 758,270 1,210,364 6» 210,877 i.4(i:i..M;ii l.;«lt).ii2.'< :(.■>:!. ^(w-) 1:!.-. 427,2.j!l 370 120,l!«l •.l7-'..V2r> 7mi Il.-.,2I7 pii ,(;(;.') :t(i .SSII, (IIS i.:iii:,2i.-i .■i(i !)04,1W7 !,.%4:i,;i27 70 460,057 2,721,801 1 500 1,(W4.0>« 2fKI 1.1 3(1.7 l:i r),22i,t;44 Sliii I8I.4.M 1.201..SII4 '*M Kli.liso v.i!.r.:t2 P20 1,2;ki.7i;8 12..'iiMMs| S,t0 Sl.tiOit 570 si)i;,:«L.' U'.t,!H)8 2,571: 3,665,011 15!l,460 3,725,609 1. !'■.'). '.(.">', .■,4,s,il(l7 160.184 6,5:12, 38<) 625,034 10,7b0,125 122 :!.-,7 G.OOO 175 190 PUBLIC WORKS EXPENDITURE, CON- SOLIDATED FUND. Mis- Collective ceUancous. Rfvenuc. Total. ',«Ki .... l'.t";i . . Increase. . l,2tl0,7()8 I.V.I.4C1O ]2.;«n.i.i8i i;2ri,(i.")4 .s 1, l.V.(,22H 12,it2.">.218 ll.(K)0,41() 46.">,u74 11,4(>5,'.»1H) p. c. a'iO 280 785 .Vverage E.\pcniiitaie l.s7;M,s.s:t I88;M!MI(I liHX)-l!"H 1905 1906 1908 1909 ■■* ].;kki.i>X) 2.000,'H)0 4,000,000 6,7(>"i,iKIO 7,484,715 8,721,326 12,300,000 In elLrht and three-ipiarter years, $57.- 0(.«X(XX) have been expi'iided on miscel- laneous public works alone. I say tliat thi.s expenditure is inordinate. It is indefen- sible and you cannot point with your fin- ger to the compensatory advantages, to the compensatory product of stimulus or of use to warrant the expenditure of this amount of money. Not only are we startled by tiie 10 preat increase in these expenditures, but, Sir. there are other thinsa that m'^ht bi' I said iiliout ih\i\ exiifnidituri! on juihlic ! wiirks. It anniiiw tn n rri';it tn.-iny cxprn- diturcs liiit niirticularly tn thr > xpciiditiirc oil [uililic works. In t'jr.-t j-huH' tlicn^ is lui I'liiii 111". II which th' Si' i >!'i'iulit\irc> are inmli', Tlu re is iin scilini,' liuwii hy ;i competi-nt authority, or c^niiioieiit board, and taking into account the amount o( money it would be wise to spend, takiiis into iirooiint the needs of the services for which alone the money should be spent, takins; into account tlic ]o('ii'i*i"S which are to he served and in tli'' Isi 'f iir^c-edent There is no such tliin? a.s ti..it .'it all. No eouiitry in the worlii proceeds to its expen- diture ujion public works on the haphazard and secret plan on which this Dominion of Cannda proceeds. There is absolutely no luihlicity in the matter. It is a matter be- tween the candidate, or the person pres.s- iriL' for tlie expenditure and th.' minister wlin !;;is cluirw of the e\penditure The exji'-n liture is warranted by tiie trovern- ineiit bi'fore the Hou-c or any body else outside of it has ai^y kno\vlcdi.'e of the thii'C at all. O'lee the '.'overninent cnnies down with these estimates it is impossible in 99 cases out of 100 to fhanpo an estimate in the least. In the nited States, where we think they have been pretty extravasant, no conirregsnian can net an appropriation for puldic works by simply t'oiii;: to a minister and buttonlioliiiL' him. Ho lias to submit his resohition tliat it is vise to liave a \ piubjic liuilditis built in a certain t lace; he iias to sulistantiatp lliat before a rospr-ns- ible eominitti'e and that committee has the overs !'.'!\t of tie' whole amount that is to be expended during any one year. Congress- man A or Congressman B does not get $20,- 000 foi' a post office by going to the minister and {lersuadinc him to put it in the esti- mate-; he has to co before the committee, which has t.he examination into all the a[ipropriations for all jmblic buildings, and which consiilers tlu' reasons for the expen- diture and then (h cides wliat 'amount of money will be expended at any i)articular place. Then ami not till tlii'ii duos it go into the estimates, iiut worse than all that, we haii a singular instance in this House the other day; worse than I have ever known it before; wi- liad a proposal which was well understood and beard by the Minister of Finance who tu-day prided liiiiiseil" upiin iiciic a trustee for ihe ]ico|)le and of sittins here in that cai.acity. What was this pr^Ji'osai? It was to s['i'nd S2o.i,i()() or $2.''i,O0iJ of the pcxjile's money. What for? For a post oflici' What was li;.- ; -la' revenue of the pl.iee? $700 in the ycai lii told. The question was asked of the Min- ister of Public Works ; Has the Postmaster General asked for it? The answer was: No. The Minister of Public Works button- holed by somebody [)uts in an appropria- tion of $'.'0,000 Mr $25,000 for what he calls 11 jiost olhcr in a place where to-day tliere is a postal revenue ui $700 annually, and wli. re ilie present postal aeconimodation is reiKcd for exactly a year. And when tiR .Minister of Public Works is ^luestioued he admits that no post ofUce authority has told him that they need a post otiice in that place to carry on their business. Is not that a jierfectly ou*ra-.'eous way of pro- ceeiliiiL'.' Is there any uther sane legisla- tive Iv in tile world that would do that kind I thiiu-.- Wlio shoukt be the judge oi tlic necessity for a jiost ollice? The post ulliee autliorities themselves and nobody else. The post otJice authority is absent in Europe, his oflieers are present here, but neither he there nerr one of his officers here has ever signed a scrap of paper asking ior the erection of a post office in that town. Tiiere was anotlxer proposition brought into the House by the Minister of Public Works ' to imild a new examinini: warehouse in the city uf Quebec. It was to cost about $500,- ; Uiiu. He wanted a vote of $r)0,0(X), he : tlu uLdit it woulil be best to chanue off the I old and Ket a new site and if so this $50,000 ': wa- to L'o towards the building. The Min- i isti r of Public Works proposed to get a j vote of $50,000, which would authorize him to proceed to spend if he thought \ it was best, .$.i00.000 lor a customs ; building. The Minister of Customs ca'iie into tlie House and it was roiiirht out in the course of the questioning lliat the .Minister of Customs had never asked for tliis liuilding. that he absolutely knew nothing about it, except that the old building had bad a hre in it and that it must be repaired in order that his men could do their work. These are not isolated cases, they are pattern cases. Over and over again this se.ssion and last we have cornered the Minister of Public Works in his appropriations for buildings, and we have had liim admit time and again that the Ministi r of Customs never asked for tins and the Postmaster (b/neral never asked for that, and the departmental ad- uimi-irator knew nothing about it. And when he was brought to book the Minister 01 Public Works justified the action by saving that every country seat ought to have a building costing from $20,- 0(10 to •$■-',■). 000. Well, ihe meaning of that plainly is that the government is not, erecting pul)iie buildings for the' use of the service but for patronai_e i,iurpose':', sticking up one in every county town vvl etlicr it is necessary or not. That is the . ;em upon which this immense expendi- taie in the Public Works has grown up chiefly, until it is to-day $12,000,000 under the administration of the present minister. Does *aot this House think that before a 11 pablic building is erected the departmental head of the department which require* till' !i?p o' it ought to express an <))iini' n iipiin H^i ni"0'»-"=ity? ll.ips not the Hou.-.e think there ou'-'ht to be riiinc hoard which would take all thci-e ; m.'itf.TS into eoiisiiieriitinii and approprifite i tlii'sr- in^iiieys for piihlie huildings? Look ! at the iiii'iuity of putting up a $25,1)00 building somewhere in the country where there is ;i yearly revenue of not more than $700, and not asked for by the Postmaster General, and not required for the needs of the postal service. What dees it mean? It means that the truster Minister of Fin- ance sitting yondiT a!l(>-.< to be taken | out from under his key where lie iui.- ; It in eliarL!!' $-ri,0()0 of the ))eo[>li''9 j moil, y fi.r a. mere niat:er of paltry petty patronage; that is what it means, nothing more and nothing less. On the other hand you h ive a city like Lethbridge, which has a postal revenue of $20,000 and more, which has absolutely no decent place where jicople can L'et their mail matter, and yet thiT.- is no post office building there, good or i.,id, and there is no proposi- I tion to l>ut one t.'iere. But, b"cause the ; membi.T representing: Lethlirid^je happens to lie on this side of the House he must go cluisine around for ever lookinLT for the jii-t i;..!its (if iiis eity. Well, neither the | member lur Lethbridge should have to chase around looking for suitable accommo- dation for the postal service in his city nor should the other man get a post office in his village for patronage purposes, but. when siieli buildings are necessary in tin: public interest tlie Minister of Public Works and the Postmaster General should \ consult tOLTOther and decide first that the ; buildini; was necessary, and in the second i i laer, the kind of building suitable for the couditiuiis of the public service in that par- ticular place. Where are we to come out at if we keep going along in this wjiy? One can learn much by keepini: his eyes and his ears open in this House, I heard a minister state in the House the i other day that ?27,71K) was expended for a piece of dredging and he be- ' lieved there was more dredging to be done there which meant more cost, j What are you getting? A channel from i live to ei'.'ht leot deep. Who js using it? One gasoline launch and one steam vessel — ' but there was a great paucity of inform a- j tion as to what particular amount of husi- 1 ness that gasoline launch and that steam ! vessel were carrying on. There will lie . probably $40,000 or $50,000 of the pe< iile's j money for which those uentlcmen are trus- | tees expen'hnl for what reason? Any broad j purpose of commerce;-' No, I venture to say j expended where no tnen of a corporation I would ears. 1 think tliis thini: ight to be mended, that the govirnment itself, for very shame's sake, ought to j rovide some bu.siness-like method of constructing its public works and ought to at least have a consultation of the heads of the depart- ments that are nominally and in practice to be serveil by the construction of these wurks. .\s ail example we may take a little item for dri'd-'ing tor which some ,¥4'J,0irt) or $!;■). iH)0 have lieen paid. Tliis is for a little place liown in New Urunswiek, a portion of a small lake. I h. '.i.'ve they got five feet of navigation, perha|;s more. I know the place well, and no business man will go there and tell you that you should have spent one red cent upon dredging in that locality, it is absolutely thrown away, given to a frienil of the government— and to a friend of the government who puts his n.oney in large ciuantities into the support r>f the government and the supjiort of or- i'ans wliicii suTijwrt the L'overiiment. 1 am willhig to make tiiis challen'.'e to the Prime .\!inister, to pick out -my tliree business men, add to them an expert, send them cown there and let them report to him; and I am willing to stake my reputation that their rejiort will be thai no trustees oi the people's money wlio have a proper rrsard for their duties would have allowed a si!i_'!f dollar ,'f that kind of expenditure. Will thi' uiA-rrnment t,d?e tlie ehalhMige? Hut I turn off from that very fertile sul-ject. 1 hope Wf shall hear nidre a'lout it ; ■ l<'re this session is over, and 1 come to auiriiier I'-iint. If there is one thing that these hon. gen- tlemen pride themselves on more than an other it is their business management of the affairs of this country. 1 liave he;ird tlicm boast that tluir inanaLrement is a lousiness mamiiremeiit, and 1 have hi-ard their supporters boast, sometimes, thinking to be true, that their course of adminis- iraiion in a business point of view was a marvel of business ability ami of business methods. I want to adduce just a few examples of what these gentlemen have undertaken and of what they have done end what they have failed to do— just one ' iit tif maybe a hundred pertinent exam- ; ! that micrht verv well be called to ii,i-'d. First let me take their manaceinent of the Yukon Territiiry and ask whether it has been a very lirilliant pha.se of their acimin- i;-tratiou? Tiiese trpntiempn came into the possession of an awakened and partly ex- plored Yukon. They entered upon its ad- ministration and declared in this Hoaae 12 ever ami ovtT a^'ain, that they were gmnn to make the Yukon pay for the Yukon, dol- lar for dollar, and would make it even a source of revenue. Let us go to the record and see what happened. In 1901 this rov- irniiicnt had a revenue of $1,993,082 from the Yukon and made an expenditure of | $1,254,156. Ipavin? a surplus for that year | of IT.'l'.l.MCC). From I= to-day? FiL'ht thou.sand -1 tliink I would: ill" 111 iiriT if 1 said 5.UU0. You had an \n- \ r -ni" 111 :;old of .$2-2.7O0,0O0. What '..ave ! you now? Two and a half millions or two pnd tliree-quarter millions, something like that. Y'et the very last year of your ad- ministration there, whilst you got a revenue of $572,650, vou took care to spend $a37.015 and made a delicit that last year of $264,365. Is that hrflliant ioisiness management? It costs to-day, accorfliiitr to the tisures I have rend, nearly $170 per head of the jh i>plf of the Yukon to administer it for a siiiile year. Let us take another instance. There was the Stickc-u-Teslin railway arrangement. This L'cvcrnment entered into a straight and fast contract just on tne eve of the assembling of parliament. Parliament look- ed into that contract, parliament did not approve of it and held it up. P'orce was sfroiiLr I'liouirh to put it throut'li this House, I liiit fiirc" was not stroncr enoii;:h to put j it, ihrouL'li tiiP Senate. ,'\s a resuU it did nr-t L'o throutrh parliament, and after the crovern.ment cot their nia.ioritv in the Sen- ate thev did not attempt to put it through. What happened? Thev had to pi'y $282,- 323 to Mackenzie & Mann for breach of contract or for damaces. That money went ou' from the hands of these trustees and what good ever came to the countrv 'roin it? Wouldn't it have been betti r i ihey hail broucrht the profiosition down and thre.=heil it out in tlie House before they m.n.le the hard and fast contract whieli j bound them in the end to pay these dam- i au'es? Was that brilliant management on tlie part of a board of trustees? Then there was the Drummond Counties railway. Their own minister c-.me to this House with the sanction of his colleagues, and told ihis House: 'I can buv the Drummond Coun'ios raihvn.v 'or $2,100,000 or a little more.' This House cim nioned the iu.stic.' of the payment; tho nth.r House not only 'Picstioned it. but examined into it, and lield it up for a vear. The .'ic- year their own minister, with their sane, ii, bougnt the same property under better conditions for $800,000 Ijss than he wished us to p-y for it the year before. Was that brilliant trusteeship? If the shareholders had not 'ot in on that transaction we would have '( en out from $800,000 to $1,000,000 more ilian we are. Then tlnrc comes the Quebec bridge. This fresh in the minds of all. The O-^e- l)cc . Ju-e, frijiii t!ie very moment jI its inception, was known to be on a 'jreat line of traffic, a most important link be- tween the north rnd south shores of the St. Lawrence, between the great west and the farther east. What happened? To the company which never put in more than $200,000 of stock, wind; only paid up a fraction of that, until anil after it was forced to years later by the government, tlii v Millie advances and loar< of n''ar!y $7,000,000. Thev omitted the sliL:iit"rt pre- cautions of having jiroper sujiervising en- u'ltieership. The bridL'e fell down one fine dav, and some 75 people were drowned. The government woke up. They woke up in two ways. In the first place, they paid to this company, which fambled on the prospect of ■ inkiiii; i lot o; money out of the transaction, by C'.'itroUin.; a line that was necessary, and teii.-iir;iis which were to be added to it. Th""-. paid then back in full all the stock tl . ;' had subscribed for. They paid tln'U' five per cent fjr the time thev sidisc d for the stock urtil they got their ni aey. 'll jy then r.dded ten per cent of a bonus, so that they would not have anv wounded feelings, pocketing the $7,000,000 of loss. They then brush- d up and looked into the matter in a busi- nesslike way. and since then they have spent $100,000 on examination and en- irinecriiii:, owins to the loss occasioned l>v thi-ir faikire to suiier\ise ai,-.I provide proper .Tginetring ability at an earlier stage. They now have found out that what their company had passed as sufficient foundations for the Quebec bridce are not sufficient, and a $2,000,000 contract is invoked for better piers, new abutments and better foundations. There is .fO.OOO.nOO STone before you commence vour supersti icture. What that will c st I do not kn-.w: but pnttimj it at $5,000,000. I hilt m ikes u]! an expenditure of $14,iT00,- «iO, of which over $7,000,000 is an absolute 13 loss— why? Because the work was begun and Cfirrioil out in a fashion that no trus- tees for ;inv ostntt; or corporation would hfivc uesci'n'lcd to for a ~inL'le moment. Tlicii tliiTC ".IS till" Nrwmarl-'i^t canal, which i? a pir Ucini.-;ni for tlip Aylo.'iworth ditch. There ^ the truslees - they face nie now. Tiie trusi. , s are takin,' a million and a quarter of the moneys of flie rstato for which they are trustees and are puttint: it into the Aylesworth ditch. No water, little populii'ion, no traffic— an absolute waste, and Ihe worst kind of a waste, l)i - cause it lie-i in plain, o|;en (>i;:)it. Il tliey wanted to niaice a siiectaclo like that, why didn't thi-v do it away from the seltlcd por- tions of the country, v hto if would not have l)et'n s( en every day liy people w ho travel? In tlie bottom of liis heart the Min- ister of Railways is ashamed of it. 'Die Prime Minister, who is the head trustee, has never deicned to show what is to be carried on that canal when a million and a (quarter of money is to he put into it. They have been challenged over and over attain, and y^'t riou" of tlieni ha.-; the l)aclil)one to stand up now. iiefore more tiian $300,000 iias been spent, iind Fay: ' wo mad.' a mistake, we have .>unk $.;i)u,(kio. but. l>v George, we will not sink the i.'her $;»oo,uuu.' Whilst in the west, 1 took an automobile trip down the Red river to see a very not- able, noted or notorious work, called the St. Andrew s lock. Tliere you have a very tine Work. Tlie t'ltal cost of it. 1 believe, :.i to he over $lioO,li(M). Mr. I?U.A'J15UKY. A million and a half. Mr. FOSTER. Six hundred thousand dollars has been spent now. Mr. BRADBURY. Over a million. Mr. FOSTER. It is woise than I thought it was. Supposing we put it at a million or a million and a quarter. Has the Prime Minister ever seen it? Sir WILFRID LAURIER. I have not had that privilege. Mr. FOSTER. Has the Prime Minister ever inquired into it? Sir WILFRID LAL'RIER. Yes. Mr. FOSTER. That is c very weak reply. The Prime Mini.^ter is head trustee for the ; people of Canada. Will he now justify his conduct as head trustee for the people of Canada in sinking .i million and a quarter of money in the St. Andrew's locks? Of that amount, $J00,000 is for a hisl.vvay lirid'je. fiir wliieh no vote was ever taken, and that hndue lies there in it.-^ naked steel splendor, thirty-five or forty feet up ii^ air f>^m the road on cither side. I want to ask the Prime Minister, a^ head trustee for the people of Canada, to tell me to-nigl.t if he can get any three business men in tht city of Winnipeg to put within his hand any justiflcatton, on the trafBe that exists at present or or. the business which may be e.xp.^etiMi in the near future, for the expemliture of u million find a ipiarler of money on that work' it is one of tlie lini'st pieces of c<'nerete masoi.ry .ind .^teel that I I'ver saw; Imt where ia the I'U^iiiess to ci'ine from? It is an absolute waste of public money at the present time. Was that brilliant work, when the head trustee himself docs not know a thing about it? Who does know? Somebody; and somebody ought to have told it. Take another example on a rather differ- ent line. Was it a particularly brilliant piece of business wlieii these tnisti^es of Ca'iada's state took it into their heads one line diiy to sell 'J.'iO.OOO acres of iSasK- atehewan valley land - Some hon. ME.MliEKS. OIi, oli. Mr. KUSTKl;. : Prin,. Minister (Sir Wilirid I.aurier) l.^ULrh- I'liat shows how serious a question he eonsidi rs this to be — for $1 an acre, one-, iif in scrip? What was the plea offered to the House to justify sellint! for that small auiount? Thut it was arid land, nearly desert, and not fitted for .settlement. I passed through that re- u'ion tliis summer. Of all the regions in tlie we~t. you will not pick out many that, over a greater length and breadth, com- prise such good laiiils es tii'-.-e. lands of i.'reiiter production, greater ftrtilitv. Sonie hon. MEMBERS. Hear. bear. .Mr. EOSTEU. I am glad t.> hear the aoplause; repeat it please— or actually yielding larger crops, .\long tliat liin? I n the land was sold, these records were before the nin- ister who i ade the sale. And tht land was not even put up at auction, but was sold at private sale for $1 per acre, partly scrip. And to-ihiy the value would aver- age, along the length :d breadth of this tract, pro> ably $10, even $20 an acre. There was at least (2,000,000 which should have been an increment to the public treasury, absolutely a>iUcmJeri'd by tlu- ^'waf i. U necessary lo mention tb'; ; «,nt liiu.' of $400.0(K) With its lur.-^ CUV the Uiintity of words that --v-' ; ^ si, ^•^'^T.BB-K Captiiin "ernur , : ,'„..•„! $440.0.H. year In that ; ■■; inniion hii> been exp.ri'l'M ( ap- ' „ •uTOunl. un aveniceof $2,f.:,0 a year. , at v -ir of its operation has shown , 1 deflcH of 'ove; ^V'Trm™" "^""^ more clearly ii» tabular form. I. C. Uailwat. ! Dtjiril* and Cafit<at the country l^^^in. : ^^^esl^ent of over $2.60(Um ^Vai any one tell ">^-»^«„V thTexpend*- p„rt Colborne by virtue of t^V''^ fnev^ ♦ nre of $2 600,000 of the people nionLS . ? , . .r- uorU and must be done. Ai d . .,, i'k. d whether Tort CoUmrne would ,nuch use there after I - ^r-iiu^^j^rir^in tiirp^od e,| : or' transport of this eountrv is '7"; 1 ?;;,nU..d\.yPor,Con,on,ewl.Kiwo^^^^ tify $2 000^100 . -'"-'tnt whilh is a ^;^l,r :n'l;n^ in Urease of I - ''• , p,,, it is man fent now that the ^ i^.i;i;;%aJ'b:iilt before an U,e. u„d conditions were Xul^y bril- hope it may puy for s co t an ^ lrnrtin\e\'t*e;''r'wiirp'ay, is. I think, ex- "'tf^^^ C'oome to the Intercoloniah Not the Intercolonial is above <^-"->^^;"« to be washed away by ^^Jl n e -ll^.d the covernment itse f ^ '^^3 un- ;:-"v Jii:" ui.'. the net de. f,^'^i:^,';r;H: i four yearlCas an 111 tli.K i.eryu covernment comes in Ind Takes hold of the Int^rcol- ^ %tbr a^?I\nL^hr^^ m^n- ■ S rXalslX are a business govern- V'fUi-. Net AviT-.u'e )»'r Year. • ExlHUlll I turo. Cupital Kx|H mli- I tun» |«r Year. i;,4:i>* :tto,:503 m,ont\ !W1.4b,"> 24."),371 1 3s, 100,000: 2,rwO,000 liXht . . lilO.-) oil , 2,2»i,0tw: 440.000 This period of TsOT to J%h/J,«/t,y '''V^;,,,t^^Uave mentioned. What is the ; It certainlv is not brilliant man- : 'k there is another ;oint to be uien into -ceount 88 illustrated by the following table: I. C. K.^n.wAv. (l2-i Ytar.s Lib.Tal Adminwtratwn.) 1909. lno-n>t i , ^ T..t;il Capital un Cupitid, l>. h,;i ,1 '1m' ili'Cicit. $SlHl,'.tf)-J; tlip total bur- den, $ LUd-J.-V.-.' Does it not startle you when von think about it? Now what happens in Australia? A para- 'gnvh in the presB of to-day says thnt in Australia, where the povernment owns the roads, a sparser population by f'lr. many more diCfiouIties, yet tlie i>aniiiiir.'^ tliis 'last vonr w.to over $20,000,000; the in't revenue was $-<.(iO(>.(¥)0. They paid all in- terest, all pensions, all ■ unniiig expeiisi'S, and put $1,1-I3,8,'?7 to tb.' credit of the rail- way in the consolidat''d fund. Mr. GRAK.\M. If the h..n. (rentleuian will L'iv tile Intercolonial the Australian rate- i.nd lenditions, we will '-'ive liini a surplu.H of mere tli in $' uihi.oW) a year. Mr. FOSTEU. The inatter has been in the absolute management of this ivern- ment from 1807 onward. What k of a plea is it for the n inister to r'-i .ow and say: If wo had done so and so, we mifrht have had so and so. They were free as the trustees of the ])PopIe*s property they were manadnc that rc.ad, and this is the way they have nianaped it. But it is not all because the rati's are not as hii:h as the rates are in Australia. I bring the Prime Minister, ti.e head trustee, as witness. VVhpt does he say in the city of Toronto? He .ays we have had good Minirters of Rai.wai'S on both sid s of the House, and there has always been a deficit. Why? Because the system umler which it is mnn- atred is vicious. It is not the fault of the minister, it is the fault of this system Yet with plenary power these gentlemen have nianaced tliat road from 1807 to 1000, and they have not changed the system. I will tell the minister where his deficit comes in, or I will trive him an authority to which he will iiav attention. He cannot discuss the authority in the way of disparagement, it would not be proper, neither do I think it would be just. Here is a gentleman who knows and who says: The Intercolonial is administered by the members for f. ■) different couiities through which the roau runs, or rather by the elfctinn workers of those -omities. I'atronaRe is the real cause of the deficit under all reKinies. In the first place, the member is besieged and he in turn lays siege to the minister. If such and such a one does not nt a situation he is sure to los« 25 votes or more in such nai such a parish. Those who know ■n.rthinK. «nd have taken port in electoral contests, rciliiie quite well that :i i;reat nunil)pr, mo^t, in fiot, of those who seek to obtain the-c situations have never been nble to make their way in businenB, or to make their way in the world. There are perh..pH exceptions, bat it is the general rnle. Then there are the contracts, the pnrchase*— For instance, the Lodge purchases, the Pearson [lurchases, the Merwin purchases, and all liiat kind of purchases, —the tariffs, al' uf which are regulated from a political poiut of view. Last year, for in- stance, (1904), we had the aenercl elections, and they must have cost the Intercolonial at least $500,000. Who is the author? J. Israel Tarte. D.ieR the Prime Minister scout that author? Sir WILFRID LAUUIER. When did Mr. Tarte say that? Mr, FOSTER, In 1005, when I believe he was u trusted colleaLrue of my right hon. friend. Sir WILFRID LALRIER. No, he was not at that time. Mr, FOSTKK. Had he just been turned out? Was my ri-ht hon. friend just then in a mode of disciplining ministers who had an unfortunate penchant for stating the honest truth? Men like the Minister of Customs were going around saying we had a revenue tariff; men like the Prime Minister were declaring iliat we wore on the road to free trade as they have it in Endand; men like the Finance Minister were hall and half, always ai)ologizing, al- ways 111 the line ,,f defence. But Mr. Tarte was honest. He said to his colleagues, you know you are practising protection, is it a sin for me to tell the people that we are? Do you so discount and disparage honesty as to make me a deceiver before the people? I will not do it, I will tell the truth. He told the truth, and he ceased to be a mem- ber of the cabinet; he was disciplined, 'iet to-day Ml. Tarte has his revenw. If his spirit seeks tiie'se halls, and if that spirit underotood the fervid and suppliant speech of the Minister of Finance this afternoon, his argument for the righteousness of boun- ties and the efficiency of payments of that kind, then at least Mr. Tarte has his re- venge. Now suppose we go a little further. From 1897 to 1900 the net deficit has been $3,481,- 0(H) under this government a,id besides they have added $33,000,000 capital expenditure. But this does not take in the Prince Edward Island Railway. The Prince Edward Island railway has a record much the same, al- though not to so large an extent. 16 The following tablet m Ultttninating: 1*. E. 1. Railway. Stalrmtnt n( Cental i'lut. Carrjitnit Intrrtut, ftrlUitt and Total burtltn. Y»!»r. { Capital C5!i,o:i;i isi -'in 1,'.n;i 1H3,704 1". K. I. KAll.HA^. Slattmint <•( htjleitt and Vapital hUifinliiun: Yt-ara. 1893 ■!«. 1897-09. X.'t Ih-ficit. AvcniK'- turr. turf. I i 989,7a>i 73,f'^) Nil. 76,10" 4,.'>i«,4r,l 8 Nil. :«7,tioo li, i,r:, i. til" fr.,ni l-*07 to oi, tin? I'rini'f IvlvMinl l^iMinl r-iilwiiy h;is :ivit- .rj.'il A7t;.UiO ]..r y. •:!!■. '\'W i';niif:ii <-\pi ;i- ilitnro \\:\~ I'l ' ii i"-'.4'il, ;iviraL.'o of $347,000 eacli year Th.' capital cost of tlir road was $:!,7io,(!H0 in 1397; the int^rpst on it at 4 per ct ut would be $149,600, the dcii- cit was $236,606. In 1909 the capitiil cd^i was $8,259,Uii3, the iiilvivst .*;t.i| ,.;r,.i. tli^ deficit was $80.(i01. tlir l.url.ii .i-4-.''i;!7o, showinjr tlifl sanip ^iiiistiT fiuiii in the bur- den of tliat r.'iiluay uinli r the inanageineiit uf the Ministi r of Railways. Now if we ask ourselves why it is thaf the Intercolonial cannot be made to pay, is there anything in its circunistaiiees that prevents it? Look at the Intercolonial. It passes through a well populated country. It has on its line, cuinniencina with Sydney and Halifax, the tow iis in Nova Scotia, witii St. .John and the town.s alone; the north shore, ciiniinij up into Quebec, an'', tnakint' its terminus in the city of Montreal, favoured with population, favoured with business which, taken in connection with its tourist capabilities, certainly make it a road which oughf to pay at least iis work- ing expenses, and the improvement \ upon it. No interest paid, no dividend paid. $33,!X)0.000 of capital expenditure and a de- ficit of $3,481,000— even under these con- ditions of no interest and no dividend. It is .simply a plain matter of bilslnOM IBUIW6* nient. It can be made to pay, only tSi» government doe« not iecm to be working in that line. Then, what has happened? Not content with runnim; the Intercolonial railway in that way, thi'.so p'ntlenien have ci'itie down and Ihi-y h ive pleik-ed tXXt of the peoide'.^ moip y to l.iiihl a |i,ir- allf 1 unil competiiur line of ruilw.iy from the city of (^uelifc down to Moncton. What is V iir i'jCi.'Hui.oiiii railway }-'oing to do there? nr,ini.' to t.-ilie throiiL'h' traffic? What does die Miiii.ster of Railways say?— we cannot make the Intercolonial railway pay be- cause we cannot hitch it on to the through traffic. But the way to make it pay is tcf <'stablish a competins line and put $26,- 000. 000 of the people'^ money into that com- pi'finL' lino ' 'I'liat i^ one wav to mal flip cst.ate in that way- I do not hi- lieve it and 1 do not believe that the people in this country have yet got down into their minds the extravagant, aimless, un- businesslike way in which this government that pretends to business manai,'eiuent. has lieeii oarryin^' on the affairs of this country. It 'he Ilou.-f will bear with me a minute •n.,ro I would just like to touch the (irand Mink Pacific, wliich is the last cliild of my re-dit hon. friend iind a boy whom he ex- pects to grow up, live for ever, and bestow i-oiistant prai.ses upon his parent. I think I do nut hdzard any statement that is ex- treme when I say that the manner in which lie' L'ovemment went into the construction ■ : this railway did not arcue foresight, i^itu'S's manacrement or common prudence. W'w.xX engiiieerinLT or oUeT k!iowded;:e had tliey of a large portion of tie- route which thiy determined by drawinc a line on the nmp was to be followed by that railway. Ill reference to the Quebec-Moncton sec- tion, what necessity in the world was tiiere for putl.asr ' $2f>.000,000 of money (here ilisifii^ad of takincr $8.n00.n(M) or lO.nnil.noo and puttmg the jiresont Tii- t'Tcolonial railway in a tirst-elass posi- tion, oiiito .siifneient to • irry all the trathc that wuuUl follow in t!ie wake o,f I I is development? But, if there is one ildni.' more than another in which these I'listees have failed in their duty to their -'ockholders it is in this that their informa- tion was so faulty that it deceived their -tockholders. The cliief trustee and his li' iitentint tho FiM.uue Minister, came be- fore this House ;ind the '[)iHi[ile of the coun- try and declared thiit you could build that .section of til ! road from Moncton to Wiii- iiipecc for $5l,0()(t,(H)0, or a little more. Is there any doubt about that? When the Prime Minister was questioned as to how 1. ' knew that, what information he had, he ■^aid they had mountains of information and 1 !■ pledged his word to the people that that was a fair calculation of the cost. I huve put some questions on the Order 17 Papor. 1 luiv.', the result of tho»e questions here from the Miniftter of Railway* and C.uialu an i thi>y show that from Winnipeg I) Luke Siipprior Junction the t..tiil "xiu ii- ilitun- vmI: I* $20.»4,690. that it"\u I.uk. Superior Junctinn to tiui'li-'c. iiHC), 47.1, 171 the eatimatjvl .'xi-Mi'litur.', ..f w' h ummuv- ••fvii ami 11 thir l iiiUli'Tis hiivi' i iialr.-a'ly .s|„ nl That iniik. - $.-<7, i:,7,:»)l fr.mi Winni- peg to Qu 'lxx. Tlifli from Quebec to M no- ton the total cost, as given by the M . t£r o( Ilailwavs and Canals, most ul it •pent, some -tiiiiat.'.l, is $'J6.n;i5.',)0'2, whieh make? in all, 1) I H 'linjtk). which is the latest estimate after halt .if the expeielituiv his bi^en made, or may be a iittlr in 're a.s^the total cost f>f that porlloii of the line, Coii- trarit that with vur ,0.it of what one might mention, I put it to the House. ,uid I put it to the people of the country, whether it is not time for a change? 10210-3