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Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre film6s d des taux de reduction diffdrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un sguI clichd, il est film6 d partir de I'angle supdrleur gauche, de gauche A droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n6cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 22% 1 2 3 4 8 6 DIALOGUE / BETWEEN A UNIYERSALIST AND A METHODIST. BY REV. SAMUEL DUNNETT, A MINUTER OF THE METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH IN CANADA. HAMILTON ; rRINTED AT THE CANADA CHRISTIAN ADVOCATE OFflCE, CORNER OF KING AND JAMES STREETS, 1852. DIALOGUE. Dialogue with a Universalist who had for several Hfti&a been seeking an opportunity for an attack ; who professed toi be a man of learning, and supposed himself master of his bus- iness ; which was to prove that God would, inevitably and un- conditionally, save all mankind. He appeared to delight much in controversy, and feared no competitor. He professed strong sympathy for the Methodists, and extreme sorrow for their " delusion." His object was to convince them that they were wrong. Methodist. I am open to conviction, and if wrong, am willing and anxious to be put right. A nd as you appear to have that for your object, by giving me new light in the truths of the Bible, that I may have a clearer and more distinct knowledge of the plan of salvation, I will take the liberty to ask you a few questions relative to your view of religion. Do you believe in the possibility of the regeneration of the human heart 1 or, in other words, do you believe it possible and necessary for man to enjoy a knowledge of sins forgiven in this world 1 Universalist. Yes, I do believe it is that alone which will make us truly happy. Meth. You are right, for there is no true happiness but that which is produced in us by the love of God shed abroad in the heart. That person who has this witness and retains it, is hap- py here, and if faithful to death will be happy to all eternity. Univ. Yes, God is love, and he delights to make us happy ; this was his design when he made man, that ho should enjoy nn endless rest with him. Meth. That I believe to be in accordance with his creative J : > 1 u :. ^v.1.. r,..> 11CI tn ^nmnlv u/ith the conditions of the gospel by using the means put within our reach, and v/e 4 shall enjoy all blessings, both temporal and spiritual, that are requisite for us for time and Eternity. But when we reflect that it is only the willing and obedient that are on safe and happy grounds, how painful to the considerate and reflecting mind, to see the thousands of our fellow creatures, by disobe- dience to the Divine requirements, daily making themselves miserable here, and posting on to everlasting destruction, " to linger in eternal pain and death foreverUj." U?iiv. Well sir, I will tell you, I once believed as you do, but I have found a better way. Indeed, I profess now to have a better opinion of God than to believe that he will punish to all eternity his creatures whom he so dearly loves. No sir ! God forbid that I should entertain such thoughts as these for one moment of that Being who is all mercy and love. Meth. Well sir, }ou appear anxious to entertain exalted ideas of the Supreme Being, and it is right you should ; but I fear that these notions which you form of the mercy of God are driving you to a dangerous presumption. I believe you said a short time ago that you believed in the necessity of re- generation, because the scripture says, '< Ye must be born again." Univ. I do, and believe that the soul will be made holy here, before it goes to that eternal rest which is provided for all mankind, for as God loves him he will make him fit for heaven before he calls him away. Meth. If you believe in the work of grace, you will grant that in order for this work of regeneration to lake place in the soul, the sinner should reflect deliberately, and examine his heart candidly and impartially, that he may understand his real case, which cannot be done to profit Avithout his reason- ing powers. Univ. Most assuredly, he requires his reasoning faculties ; what can any man do without them i Meth. And while reflecting on his past conduct, he should feel sorry for sins committed against God ; then he should re- pent and cxcfcisc faith in God through Christ. Is iioi ihiS about right according to the scriptures 1 Univ. I have nothing very particular that I would urgci at present ugainst that; but still it does not Prove that the work referred to will not be completed in all men before they leave this world. This is what I contend for, that God will do the work. Meth. Yes, I see this is your opinion, but I cannot agree with you only on the grounds that the conditions of the gos- pel are complied with on the part of sinful man. let, lam happy to think that although we cannot agree in every partic- ular, there is one thing in which we do agree ; i.e., on thesnb- iect of temperance, and perhaps you will allow mo to digress for a moment, to ask a e fact that ho desired to throw hnnself down and must have known that the full, aside from Divine interposition, must have killed him. Therefore, to say the least, it would be desiring to kill himself; this you can call by what name you please, only do not call it a good desire. Univ. You appear to be laboring very hard to prove noth- ing. I have not denied that he was thus tempted, neither do I deny that the distance which he would have fallen was not sufficient to kill any man ; but he did not throw himself down therefore he was not guilty of the act. ' Mcth. I am not laboring to prove Christ guilty of any wrong. God forbid! I believe the very opposite of this; but I am laboring to show, that according to your view of tempt- ation he must have been a sinner. For, although ho did not throw himself down, yet according to your theory, ho desired to do It, and therefore literally desired to kill himself, which desire 18 sm, and the same argument will apply to every o.her temnt- ation which he endured, both at that time in the temple and duruig his whole life. And he was « tempted in all points like as we are," only mark! the Apostle mys, « yet without sin" Hence, -emptation is not sin, neither is man his own temnter always. But according to the word of God there are Devils real beings, capable of moving, thinking, acting, in various' ways, and suOering. And it is their object to destroy tho peace of man, and ruin his soul. ihUfKc ^'"" """ l!^'''' '° "''^ ""'"" '^""S'' arguments than these l>efore you will convince me that the Devil is a real be- ihf^ ;"""''"P"f^"-^i^°^'^i «'«l«n«pter,or m other words, the destroyer, under many figures. Instance tho "Dragon," , nud (A\Q will nr- ccive llmt inimclc of iiist have Tought to tlinu tlic this, that 1 to throw side from iro, to say t can call lesire. ve notli- icither do \ was not olf down, f of any thia; but )f tcnipt- ) did not Icsirod to ch desire 2r tcmpt- iple, and Jints like mt sin." tempter ' Devils, various troy tho nis than real be- ■ words, )ragon," n I'lio "Serpent." In the first you see the Devil is a fabulous beast, in the second a common snake. We read of the Devil's being cast out of men ; here tho disease is represented by the term, Devd, that is, destroyer of life. When the person was cured it was said the Devil was cast out. It is said tho Devil entered mto the herd of swine, that is, destruction, or in other words the destroyer, and so man when he is drawn away of liis own lust is tempted ; this to him is the destroyer of his peace. But from none of these circumstances can it be infer- red that the Devil is a real bein- Meth. I begin to fear that 1 ouall not be able to produce sufficient argument to convince you that the Devil is a real be- ing, for I am inclined to think that you have puriwscW placed yourself beyond the reach of argument, especially on this point. But to show you that I am not disposed to evade an answer to your objections, I would remark, that the scriptures do indeed represent the Devil to us under different modes of expression. But if that is an argument against his real exist- ence, the some would bear against the existence of Holy An- gels, for they are represented as men, women, wind, fire, &c. And on the same principle, we may deny the existence of heav- en, l)ecaxise it is described by the terms, City, Mansion, House, Kingdom, Abraham's bosom. Paradise, &c., &c. We might al- so deny the existence of God on that principle, and indeed almost every thing else. You say that the Devil is a fabulous beast, because he is represented by the erm «' Dragon." You say the Devil is a common snake because ho is represented by the epi- thet, " Serpent." I will not stop to offer any more rcmarlis on that point, for I am conscious you must see the inconsistency of such quibling, and I think you feel a little ashamed of it. But again, you say the Devil's being cast out means no more than the curing of certain of diseases. Hero you identify the Dev- il with the disease. This view of the subject will not help you m the least, for, though yuu have brought it up to prove that the Devil is not a real being, it is only calculated to con- firm the oppo«itc= For, admitting that the disease means the Devil, it proves real and personal existence, and intelligence. This disease could talk. Hoar how it spoke to Simon Magus, 12 "Panlwe know, and Christ we know, but who art thon f' a t &c., they had calculation and sensible impress..ons~" 7\r thou come to torment us before the time?" "If thou cast us out suffer us to enter into the herd of swine." Doe T h S:r"?tr^' "r^^"'^--'-son, anda se„L lacing? Should you say it was the man or person who spoke would stdl be as great. Because it would go to prove that tW r r'^'"*'"'^""^ "'' "^' ^'- "-"' -3 no one" d -1 would be a curse instead of a blessing. But this would be to anmhdate tae man, for the same that spoke to Christ was Z:^'^T'''V'''^'''^'' ™ who said, "If thou ca "s out, the man of course was cast out of the man. Again, you wm see your theory incorrect, I think, from another con- Mderation, viz., this same something that was cast out of the man, on a certain occasion, as you no doul)t remember, at its own reer, at its V if that I come to inau was e herd of lace into i reason- n. And eSon of II ns you What- ayprop- 1 ilcst roy ogrcc of ippoint- . would von the 13 operations of the Holy Spirit inliict pain to the sinner's lieart, when it shows him how he stands in the sight of God. Thcso arc not to be called Devils, for although they may destroy to some extent our present peace, yet to the righteous a greater good is designed to result therefrom. Ilcncc, those things which lessen our happiness are not devils, though the Devil labors to destroy our peace here, and our souls hereafter. Univ. I can scarcely hear those words — destinction of the soul — used, and feel right to a person who can indulge the thought of hcU-firc — eternal punishment to be endured by God's intelligent creatures. Mcth. All that may be, and yet the fact remain the same, for I hope you do not think your judgment is the standard for the universe. These things are generally very disagreeable to sinners, equally as much so to others as they are to you, never- theless you may be annoyed ; you may doubt and hope there is no such place, but remember none of thcso things will anni- hilate it. Univ. If I believed it possible my feelings, no doubt, would be very different. But I am firm in my opinion and feel my- self fully prepared to prove to you, and to the world, and that to a demonstration too, that the idea of a future hell is a com- plete infatuation. I was brought up, however, to believe that there was such a place, and under the dreadful, tormenting fear thereof I lived till the age of man ; but since I have be- come capable of judging for myself, and having applied my- self to reading and .study, T am led to see difTerently, and the more I reflect upon the attributes of God the more I am con- firmed in my opinion. Mcth. T am sorry that you have come to this conclusion, and especially iu such a hurry; for my impression is, that if you would diligently peruse and fiiith fully study the word of God, y.ou would soon be led to see things in another light. Univ. I have road the word of Ciod ovor, and over, and over again, and it is from that I have drawn my opinion, and you cannot prove the things which you aflirm. I am bold to riay tnttt. t;ivit: 13 liui :i U-At. in iiiu V.iu.'iu J7iu!e iTtm ^ucri ui prove future pnDi|[|3icnt. f am aware that many arc so con- inspired writ™ do n„, ., ^ ' "^'"'"^ ™'«' ■>' 'h" everlasting destruction from tl.o nr s le "nt ?""T ":^ "'"' tlic glory of Ins power," " When thTTnl t '"'^""'^ ^''""^ vealed from heaven vv th Z '^ ■^''"' ''^^" ^e re- talungvengean roVultlnT;= ''"°'^^'' "^ ^^"^'"=^ ^"•- thogospelJf ourLL :r^^^^^^^^^^^ ^i;, f ^ -' "^^y not 2S Obtained from the Anostip V.T r "' """'^ '''"^^^ "^of« t/mv. I have no hesitancy in savino- fiv-f ti be punisVd with everlastin/.l . \ ° "'^ '^'^^'^'' ^ill here, is, hov^ ^ve tnt/s^ ''" "^' '''^'^"^^y think it extends t^l^^' term "everlasting." YoJ; tend beyond the bound: f thn^ThV' "• "' '"'^'"'^ ^° - proof of this. Instance h. ^ ! ''"^''"'^^ "^^^^^ '""Ple you do not believe tlo' ::^f !,f "^ '''^'" ^^^" ^^-^^ ; present state, and esneeiallvf V /r^'' '°"''""« "» their generailydo thatZwo idwiHe dT "^ "" ^'^^^''«^'«'^ can you reconcile tins iT^' v it" 7 '7 '"• ""- not Canaan promised to the Jews Tin I ^"'^f ^^^"^^^ ^'^^ ion?" Gen. I7-S ti,- ^" ^^'«'»''«sti"g possess- t«cd ,l,r„ngh ,i,o wij; tori 1 "'""'';'"."""" ''"e been .cat- i«d to r,,„,„,, .,„ ^„ ; ,=,: tS" o^''^^":''.;- rrom. hood, I presume you Will cranf 1,„H '^''"•' -^"t^J this priest- -lied an " overlLt„,g ^^1 ^ " T ' ""'?'''' '' -"» ^vas given to the Jews! iev 26 34 <^a ?^'t'«''"^^ ^^^'"^° '"^c.ia.ung.stutute umo you to make nnli ' "'"" ^° '"^ y^ lo moKe an atonement for fJio those scrip, ine that you some of the L'he Apostle 1 his writ- rallier from 'inoe me — not repent Yes sir, shed with land from ill be re- fling fire> obey not lucli more lishment, itngs. eked will difficulty :•" You 3d to ex- Is ample , 49-26 J in their tiiodista > How ? Mas [jossess- 'Y wexe n scat- )ossess- proni- priest- it was stntiito be ail or Iho 15 ehildrcn of Israel, for all their sins once a year. And he dic{ as the Lord commanded Moses." These were yearly atone- ments to be offered by the priests, and were never intended to go beyond the Jewish dispensation, yet it was called aa " ev- erlasting Statute." If everlasting statute does not extend be- yond time, and the other scriptures that I have quoted, tell me, why should everlasting punishment? Mcth. If that rule of yours is a good one, it will work both ways, and if it does it will prove too much even for you, and it will finally destroy your theory. You must see that if the term cverlastuigwhcn applied to the wicked has no reference to future punishment, the same terra of course when applied to the righteous has no reference to future joys. But as you havo quoted scripture to prove that " everlasting" has an end, allow me to show you from the same authority that properly speaking it has-'no end. The term is used about 73 times in the word of God, and in four instances, those named by you, the term is used in an accomodated sense ; you will see seventy-one remain- ing, all of which may bo properly explained in their utmost latitude of meaning — having no end. Let us try a few of them to balance against those which you brought forward. ** lie called on the name of the everlasting God," Gen., 21-23^ " Blessed be God from everlasting to everlasting," Ps., 41-13* " Tho mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace," Isu., 9-6. " The redeemed of t.ie Lord shall come tor Ziou with songs and everlasting joy," i:c., &c., Isa., 35-10. " Thc_cverlasting God, the Creator fainteth not,". Isa., 40-28.- To say that " everlasting" hero has an end is in eflecr. to say that God has an end — that tho everlasting joy of tho righteous has an end — that the everlasting praise of God has an end. These aro only a few as * sample out of the many which the word of God contains, that bear equally as strong on the point. And let mo say that everlasting destruction and everlasting chains are to be understood in the same sense as those above. To leave this term everlasting out of the c|uestion and apply it neithor to the righteous nor the wicked, I would like to know how^ you pi'ovo that there iiJ any happiness vi be enjoyed after death. 16 opinion, and suppose thev shonl.l „ ^? ''°"^'™ y^"' view,thosewirhI v'; e^^^^^^^^ ''^'^^ ^-^^ .your deed stronger against it. ZtZtZ^' T "' '*^°"-^' '^"'^ "> -Ie.ee, and I think rather cltt^^ihlv S' ^'""'^ °^--" of the scripture as well as tho JTl f * '^ ''''^ P°'"ons texts have meaning as IZl s J Tnd fftir ^'' ^"' "^^ you referred to mean unendino- dura ion tf 2"'"^'' ^'"'^^^ evidently mean a limited poWod NowV '' """' ' ^''^^"^^^ rbrase," everlasting destrSi'"^.! ^ ''''"P''^' ^^'^^ the - much confidence as n ean ^i In f ^°" "^''"'''^ ^^"^ ^^ What rule are we to teUn^^iSl ^^^ ^ ^' ^ "^^ I have as good re.son to believe that i 1 ,' ""^^^^^^^^d. as you have that it means u eldi , "' ^ ^^'^-^**^'^ 1'^'^°^^ more if yo„ try till ,ho ,lal „f ' , ^?'' >'°» '""'«" S'"! six wo.,1,1 only .„„L ten . Ill 1!;", """■•,«"-" if y«" could limited explaaatiou. ore3 ,!d '°7"' '™"''' -''■»!' °f- 'osixty-fiv. place, i„ tl e Biwl't i™ I, "t""™^'' '■'™ ^^^ ' « used which will „„t adn, t „f ! , , '''™' " ''™'totins," entirely do,„„yi„g Z leZ , '""""' «l>l»"-tio„ without *at i, ii„,ite.?„c:i-°. ::::Lti'; ";:^i;:',ra*;'r'"^ °«'"- "everlasting joy"— jov f...- n .■^'^'^'^^ has an end- King." "Lei,'„,e7thrwavr', ?"' ^^ ^^ " -erlasting Will Jmve an end! Th ,il?^ cverlnst.ng»-i„ the way tha? . orlnsting life," that is n ^^''^T/" '''° ''"^ «'^^" ^^^^ve « ev- n^^^urdut (uKl 01 no cfloct. x\ovv , ami settle > " everlast- 'ply and la* Yoii have nfirm your favor .your ig>aiid in- ed over in ■e portions ^jand my ges wliich produced take the I with so » and by iderstood. ed period w^hen the ch better ontempt^ intend to s on this 2rlasting find six ni could mit of a n sixty asting," ivithout God"— 1 end — lasting iy that " ev~ comes in this i\0\\- 17 then, by wliich will you bo governed ? by those few where the word appears to admit of a limited explanation] or by the sweeping majoity where it cannot possibly admit of a limited explanation without maki ng nonsense 1 As I said before, so I say again, your objection is not destitute of weight, but it is not sufticient for a foundation on which I would be willing to risk my all. It is a mystery to me how any man who is capa- ble of knowing as much as you do, would dare to build on such a sandy foundation, when even those texts on which you so much rely are susceptible of a more extensive explanation. For in the promise that Canaan was for an " everlasting pos- session," an eye was had to the original meaning of the term, because Canaan was a type of the everlasting rest of God's people. The same may be said of the Priesthood, and yearly atonement. The '' everlasting hills" is a hyperbole, a form of speech much in use both before and after Jacob's time. It was used purposely to impress upon the minds of Jacob's sons the extent of the blessings promised to Abraham — a beautiful, striking, and most impressive figure, of which no person who is in search of truth could be disposed to take advantage. And I am candid when I say, I do not see how it is possible for you to expect endless happiness while you retain your view of the term, ** everlasting." Univ. I have good grounds to believe in the ultimate hap- piness of myself, and of all men, but let us confine ourselves t«j the scripture. You build your faith in future punishment on the terms " everlasting," and " ever and ever," and like ex- pressions, which I do not yet believe express endless duration. If they do, why did not Christ use the same terra in promising happiness that he did in threatning punishment 1 For exam- ple : " These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." Here you will see a marked distinction in the application of terms — to the righteous, " eter- nal life," that is, endless life — to the wicked, " everlasting pun- ishment," as if Christ purposely selected and applied the terms to theii' apprc^priate places — " everlasting punishment," mean- iiirr nmiiuti nO ut in nmnr>rtinn fn tlio irimo. A r\ i\ nirnin Vir ^nve "o I !^..l. I- j..„^~l 1 ~. __ __ - -J-J " I will give unto them eternal life," mark you ! eternal life, and " Ihcy shiul never perish." On this I am willing to risk my ail. 18 ferem. Lee me ob Jv fta, C ,Sr r" "T ™"'' ■"= "'f- both eases, he spoke i„ Prell , ' '"" "'= ^^^ te™ i" »l.ow yen Ihat .W di ^rof I^IT '^T* ^"'*''"™' ""' Christ, but by the Eno-lk V w '^ " '"'' '^ "»' »»'te by «»t .he .oi a':Xrsn":';,";,;:r to"''*'' ''"'°' «l«nJs.n the Greek Testament. " M ^ 511! , '° ^°" "^ " A<^<.M ffli,„,„„ b„t the ri-hteoiis into A ■ ^ "™5' ""° 25-16. Youcanseeforvo ^^f 1 " <•»»!»»." Matth. it and read. I doTot ^n ' 1' Ttak "" ^"'""""'' '«'«' look foryonrselfandheTatLfiS- ' "y word for it, b„. Umv. I am not a Greek scholar. oon.;;t t,f ahS L'k'V"" "' r^ '''^^ «™"- ->->> «e tlie words. Do y™ se! T^^V ^"^^ Te^toment, here "HntheaecentJisIt .oTeTett^r"' "■ '"° °''™°'™' I-ookltere. not exactly tlie same in both words! be,"":;^ tij^fori" fSii "'Lr':r' <'° - »-'•« 'o fear I might bo wrong ^ ° ">^"""S °" «"" Po"" for appear te be in this. Bnt L , ! , ■"', *'"^ "'"""S as ye,. -' .be matter another way, d taZ!" to"'/ T- ™"'°' ^« »ay the term, « clernal " ,,,„ ,, " ° ° *■"' '^»e- You we agree. Nov^ ^ mur' "t *'""°"' ™ ""s point When applied to the rl™ ,s i mT™ '""'f'"'^ '"■""™ applied to the wieked /f 1^1', ,, "" ""^ ""<" when word, as you say it i's a f L , I"™""""" ™"°'"e °f .he »ys, .. The n/teoustha goruo W^^^^^^^^^^^ % "™-' Christ «P=aki„g of the wieked, ■■ Tl'ey I'tr ,' '"'^' "y^' '» eternal (ire." Christ savs ' rrj "° ™f ""8 .be vengeance of «;oHelyGhestsi:, S'; " ng" T, "T'"'™ ""-»" Mark, 3-29. °"«" of eternal damnation." -»-yed-s«,om:a„d „,r^::rn;tr'rr.:" e term ia •ukl be dif- ne term in ment will made by ther proof you as it way into " Matth. leut, take for it, but « which explain- 511 1, liere meters ? words ? ofess to oint for er mat- as you ttot get . You I point iration when of the Christ lys, in nee of jainst tion." Lide." were etei- 19 nal, no doubt, but that element will always exist, therefore, may with propriety be termed " Eternal fire." And the text which you quoted from "Mark" does not prove that any soul will ever sufler eternal damnation. 3Ieth. You say that Jude had reference to the Cities, tliat is, the houses and land I suppose. I admit they were destroy- ed by fire, but did the houses " give themselves over to forni- cation?" did they " go about after strange llesh ?" and are those houses set forth as an example to other houses, that they may not do the same ? and are these houses now suffering the vengeance of eternal fuel If they are, poor tilings! they are very much to be pitied. Whatever it was that went after <* strange flesh," and " gave themselves over to fornication," the same are " suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," and whether they were houses and land, or rational and accounta- ble beings, I leave candid men to judge. You say that Mark, 3-29, does not prove that any soul will suffer eternal damna- tion. I did not bring it up for that specific purpose, but mere- ly to show that it was possible for a man eternally to suffer.' And you must see that there is such a thing as eternal damna- tion, or man would not be in danger of suffering it. One of two things you must acknowledge to be true, either that there is eternal punishment, or that Christ told that which was not true when he said, " He that blasphemcth against the Holy Ghost shall be in danger of eternal damnation," when at the same time he is not in danger if there is no eternal damnation. Univ. It is the Divine purpose, ultimately, to save all men Thus says the Apostle, " God will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." This is my belief — on this truth I am willing to rest. Meth. You confound the will of God with his purpose, and I conceive there is a marked diflerence, God will have them to to be saved, but they will not be saved. Christ would have gathered the Jews as a hen gathcreth her chickens under her wings but they would not. The will of God was not done in this case. You will not say that the will of God was done T .or\/l iprt if^rtniio • \\\r3 V/'.ll WSlH tll'lt tllO'^'' sllQUlcl in tho c?sc of the- be either hot, or cold, and they were neither, but Uikcwarm. 20 to ^eZ^zx:^:::^^: ^^- -^r^-- a., a. .a.a or, principally o^in. " w/ ff "'? ''"'^^^^^'^^ «^^«h oth- sure that\he whole°w ■ corSf , 'f'^r' ^"^^ ^-^ -« in confining ourselves to scpS f "'"^ ^"^ "^"^^^ '^^ «^f« J'on, but there are doubts T T, ^ ZT": 'If "^^ "^^ ^i"- too; and whenever we find nnT' ? '"^«°"aLIy entertained come in contact with thfciSS^^^^^^^^^^ '^^^^^^"^ ^^^ denttheerrorisinthetranshZ.'i '•'"'" "'">^ ^« ««"«- ^t expedient for a final set" ett^ 'of the" "T '' '''''' ' ^-- course to the attributes of God m!'^"f^°"' '" '^^^^ '^- in this xve cannot be m s ta iL Tf^'T "''* " ""'^ ^' '^^^^ cousequently good, ancfp ttl'y Zlcl "f "^ " ^^^^ '" ^^ - eternally, is opposed to goodnes^ ]ir • ''"'* '° ^""''^'^ '^^ ^ouf Therefore I ar4e that Sr.r'^' '" ^^'"J «"d decree tial to the Be^;^:JZ:^l^^^r^^ of goodness, eC eternally, for it is opposed trVefvltT"'^'^""^"^'^ ^ -"* To punish a soul as you savhJ V ""'^^^ "' "" ^^od of love, self, and consequential W him ,rf '^ '' ^^^^^^ 1-- ^f we believe not, yet G^ 1. T'^ ' '' '"""^^ ^''^ " ^^r Jumself.'> Wo.,,dC^e,^f/':^^-"^f"^l- cannot 'deny fire and brimstone to all eterni tv " ^- ' ' ^°"' °^^'^ ^'"^^' ^" I answer, No. How much T^^ ^^ ^"" ''''' ^'^« Power ? t'mt God will do it ^""^ ^'"^^^'^ "^«» is there to beheve _ff<^th. You argue now from thft will not punish the wicked T.t •. ^^ §^oodness, that God ^- Will be swerved b^fi'^e "or C'' " '' '^ '' '' ^^^ "- course of administratfon,repu"n^tto"tl '""''''" to take a happmess of the Univer^ ^o Z ^'""^^ ^^^'^ '^"^ tion of a Universalist. G^i .rod T.''^ ''" "'^"^^^'^^ - I rejoice, and because he is r ood ain: f'"'^' ''"^ "* ""'^ ^^"th ministrations, have a refere ce to ,1 ^^'"^^,' I^"'-P°«««^ and ad- verse, as the Supreme MaZZle - ^T"' ^''' "^ "'« ^ni- he has other worlds to l<2tt\vlu' i '"telligencies. But officer his admu.istrat^:Lu,t be ;;'''"' '^ '"^ i'"'^^^° Prompted by goodness, he estabK h ', ^'''''^"' ^''^' ^''^ ^'^^• «nd goodness, wisdom justSa^j V"^^ '"' ^'^'^ ^^^^'^rse, provide for the safety n f i "'''' '"^"^^^^^ ^'"s law to Taesamepriuci;^:;^l^:[?;:::-.l;^e whole Empir" xv:s be, cither li terallyor 21 in the spirit of Iheni; carviccl into efTert so as to secure the encls of good government, and should oni-nders be treated with ne- glect, other intclligenoes far beyond us both m point of mind and morals, would have just rca-^on of complaint. You say God is too good to punish a soul to all eternity ; you miglit as well say that God is too good to carry his own law into effect. God says of the wicked, " They shall be punished with ever- lasting destruction." Your argument goes to show that God is too good to Ijc true to his word. It looks to you like cruelty, but it looks to me to be an act resulting from wisdom, justice,' goodness, and truth, and consequently the punishr-.ent ' of the impenitent cannot be avoided wuhout endangering the ends of good government. Let us suppose a case, a criminal convicted ofa capital crime. It is the duty of the judge to pass sentence of death. Now remember, he is a public oflictr, and though the passing of this sentence may arouse all the tender sympa- thies of his nature, yet it is essential to secure the public safety. Should persons of this character 1; 3 allowed to rove at large, the safety of all good citizens would be endangered. Robber- ies, murders, devastation, ruin, and the final extermination of our race would soon follow. The same disorder would exist throughout the entire universe of God, should he, as the public officer the.eof pass over with indifforencc, transgressions in this lower world. Suppose our government should let all mur- derers, theives, robbers, and licentious persons of every descript- ion, take their own course ; would not this be to countenance their conduct ? Surely it would, and purposely, too, endanger- ing the safety of good subjects. Could this be called a good government ? certainly not. The same argument will apply to the Divine government, and the punishment of the wicked is inflicted on the same principle. Therefore I say, Go-l is good and for that reason, " The wicked shall not go unpunished."' You quoted 2 Tim., 2-13, to show that God is faithful and will not punish the sinner, when in fict it proves the very op- posite of this. If we deny him he also will deny us ; if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. To what then does he abide faithful 1 We ai.swer. to this ; that if we deny him he will deny us, and to deny us ia not to own us as his, but on the contrary, it is to say, I know you not, dojwrt from me into everlasting fire. 22 Vniv. ,--..pix,se a part of mankind to snfler, as you term it, 111 licll-fire Ibrcver, Xh^t is etornnllv n^,! i , ),>„ ^„ ;' ■ isj eieinaijy. God knew what would J.ecome of tl.em before he made them, and if he knew thev would go to holl, I ask i„ the name of eommon ser^^Z^Z r eternal paux ? or do you suppose he did not know the col sequences, hut created intelligent beings as a kind of expe^- ment, merely to see how they Avould act ? ^ i^f.f/» The ideas which you design to convey, I presume mty, and .. That all tlnngs serve his Divine will, that is all thmgs arc as he designed they should be ' Univ The idea is this, God bemg absolutely perfect in knowledge, nu,st necessarily have seen and known from e em " ty, all th.ng,s that would transpire. And knowing asl Zt have .lone when he made man, that according toyour doc^no mi hons would go tohell and be tormented etLaHy. An Tc wi on of Ill's wisdom. | t 24 'II you do not Itavc l.im | short-si<>iit(.>d tl crondiro.s Jijic um 'I'l'v 1), W'oidd l)(. I iiniv propor lor lis: (JodisomniNnriK,, (iu-rolbro lias II wivrs to .siiy soinrlliiiij^ like thin tl gs. Vol, I du not, wisl UM-O is Jiiiy ||,i„„. (,. » you to mid.Msliiiid |,„. ( 11^ liowv-r to \nu,\v nil which i,s uiil. mind inspires, ridin- in oarlli, 1 • Miiniii, thiit Known to(,'od. I only wish t . iinivcMi, or imi took place I inistulu'ii notion, whicli is ti,i,, ,| O llMIIOVO (Voin . lliiil thoNo thii your '«•» "M>.uce heoausc Cod knew thorn. Tl is , Z ""^ «PFar. to idontity tho knowlod^ool" (lod w tl " • ' ^T" «tonnty,whioh:nu;:i:;Vd;:,-;;rn-;;'V;'r^'"'" i»i-vi.d,o,ho..wniit.u.ns ot^.:; ;;,;;;''' f'^^^^^^^ 1>".-I..nc.it Ion. l.oll.ro,|.oy worol,orn,iryour itW Z' iuul conso.inontly thov woio horn i\u- lu..t """"" "* truo, eternity, must ho tho result ol' a dooroo in r ' m ' '" l^uvcno-Monndtohopo for ot ^md , , , "^''"'■" ^^^ ♦ruth and goodness u/ God 1^!^,';^'';!:'. '"''''" "'' ^''° thesuhjootisri-ht thonn! tl.' '"'' '''^^' ''''^ " yur v.ow of ior h^ ^u.j':t'::'t^r:::^ ^^'-t:^ »t is lus good plonsiiro that thoy s Id , d " , '■'""' ""^'"' theroibre. retreat iron, this posi , ^ ' r" ';" •""^'' nnda.^u.owlodgohuutuho'thog.^t t'il.^^^^^ Lot n.s hoar what ho s-iv. u u r,. 7, ;^""^' "' "'»' umvorso. ™rrK,{ out, ily„„r ,i,^„ ^ „„„ ' • ."..! I .,.,o„ worn ,-"i-iooroo.i,,i.ou i,„„j,.a bZ 'i,; ;■ vi": ;?■"" t^' ittore 5u in tho c Christ woidt Jiav prenio liovirnor of the e giithcrcd the Jews to hini 1 'uiivorse! Again lit ihoy xvoulil Il"<'(> III iho l>i'<'l»or ibt "liiiH: like I' luidw nil iiioiiii, that II, or Iioll, (Vdiii your I'w tilings I »'l' ytutrs ''ivo .Am I" roiimrk.s. iii«(s from ly \mi\'vt II t'loniiil 10 i>«(riro, uitl must l'liri'(>(oro •i"! luiiist l»o result <'ot, that •tl with, «'ll 113 in 1100 you of the ^■io\v (tf lla-m — (lioui, 11 iiuiist, I'l'd'od, liVlTSl'. I<) iimu (ttf lot wero Ml Nuy, 7 dill, Jnueh would 25 )iiol,nnil (hviy did nut cunie. Now, if your tlioory is correct, tlicy rould not come, bi!Cfui3c (.'ud, knowiiij,^ fill tlungs, saw tlicy would not, and thendliro wluni Cliri.st liiliour(;d to gather tliom, he kiboiired to overturn I lie decree of his Father, and yet (Mirist gravely tells lis tlnit ho '* came to do the will of his Fatiu'r," nnd ({(id says, " This is my beloved son in whom I am well jileased." 1 sisk, would ( .'od be well jileased to sue his " beloved son'Miiboiiring to friislnite his dcsiiriis, and inerturn his decrees? Surely not ! « Tlio l.ord is not willinnr that any should perish, but that all should como to repentance," 2nd Peter, 3-9. Threo thinirs are to be ol)served here, viz., (Jod knew that all men would not come to repeiitiiiice,— 2nd. It was his will that all men should come to rei)cntance,— 3rd. It fullows that the know- ledge and the decree of (.'od, are not one, and the same; if they were, it would ainomit to this, viz.. Cod decreed that all men should not ei)n)(> In repentauee and be saved, and his will was that they should all come to repentance and be saved, and thus his will would be oi)posed to hi.s decree, and (iod would bo divided ii;'ainst himself, and conserpieutly could mjt exist as (lod. J merely brim^ up these texts, as a specimen of that juimerous chiss of scriptmes which mi^ht bo produced, b^arang with equal strength on the point, to show the inconsistency of your rcasoninjr. But again, if the knowledge of (Jod, and Ins decree arc the same, it follows as a matter of course, that inas. much as he knew all tiiiii'-s from eternity, ho knew sin would bo introduced into the universe, and knowing it, according to your doctrine, is decrcein,'? it; therefore ho miirst have decreed it; and if so. Cod is justly clnirgeable with all the sin in the imiverse, its pernicious cllects, and its entire consequences'. To this conclusion your proi)osition leads, which if you should ficknowledgo to be true, would deprivo you of all hope of ctcrniil li!ip|)incss on the ground oi tho " divine goodness," which is your stroiuTcst, and indeed your only ground of hope. Your error on this point appeius toconsist in this, viz., in supjios- ing that sin and misery took place, because Cod, knowing ail things, knew they woidd. Now, these things do not tako placo bccnusotuul knows them, but Cod knows them becauso they tako placo. Tiio proposition placed m this shape, assumes a rensonab ispoct as n safe rule of argument, jniiy apply to knowledge, human, nngolic, or divine. Apply your rule of 26 argument to human knowledo-e }>v ... auarroMho contention conlml^I'to.Srinf/"'' """ ^" ' degree, and an-ry foeli„os .u^oii • ^'''^^'^ ""^ '''ses to a liigh draws hi« su-ori an^ C ^ ulTrl""' '" "^ ^^"^^'^ «- a lUira person standing 1 y • ^ ;; T T, ^'"' '^"^^^^ yo" -say timt th,s mnrder toor„ h ^^'''^'^« «-^'»«, would would you not rather v v 1 1 a t V K 'T'' ^'^ '^^^^^^ '''■ ^r look place ■/ The ■ n ; . n" ^T''^''' ^^^^ ''' '^«''-"«« it Angel., who M- nes L "'^''^ ^" ^''" '^-^-J-'so of not n.ost,andper l" 1 :"'""^^^■'"•"^-'''' -"7, if -e known to tLso ide:! a la r ^ W^'^^ "' '"^ ^^"^^''' l^n.gs take pl.co because An^eis know ^^^ "^^^^ ""-^'^^ l^"o;v then, because tbey take place ' " ""' " ^^"^ ^"^^^^^ iu other u.;:i nCtal^^^^ '""°V" ^"^'^ ^^^"' '--'- I-'ows what does . ke 'cc b. t' '''7 ^^''r«« ^-' »ot only «I>owshhn what i; vet to c,:, ''^'^""^^■'^"^^.^^ of the future God of which llpeak ' ''"' '' " ^'" ^-^^^nowledgo of of acco/nlnod a a 'r n "'l"r"^^^°"^ ^" ^''''^ ^-"- tlie subject, and bin" t i ' I^ '" "^^''^'^ ^''« «"l^'i'"'ty oi standing. Thi sleet ) " '™'^'' °' °"' '^'^^ ""^^er- byintrc^ucin^ls^::., : :^:^ T' '^ ''''''' ^"•'^^-^-' standing nt one end iL. ,i i ^^-^'vo ictt long, one boy end,tl,o^^„,l, ,: ;J rj;*:' ■'"''/•""'•"K •" the ml, iHjy stan.ling at I ho furth.^r L.\ V . , "^ "''''''" ''"^ : tho '-"".. i,u» !;.,„.«, ;::;,':.;,'':;'''' *- -"''■" "-"" ""> Mwit when il been l„ r.,ii , '" ''°'™'l'oy<,ml ,t,„„c| Wrliuic jourileV liL'rii)nni.,i ).,, n • , ■ ' ^"-'Vrtugtu Iho ^ ""'"^- ■""! did the inarblo roll men hi a s lo a high length Olio ii(i suppose !iie, Would aw it? or hecause it vvJedge of many, if >i.s world, uH thcso Angels paralle:, iisjiire, or not only »e future dodge of ict that^ 'ith him 1 Aituro, s:round iniity oi under- istnited boys to •no boy > other to the I'lank, (I : the int the y per- il, and rougli rdbro to the end roli 27 in this direction because the lioy saw it, or did the hoy see it because it rolled in that direction '( Let this plank represent time, either as ti wliole, or in its parts, and Clod existing at ono end of this plank, that is, before time was: every thing then ia being must have been }ircscnt to him; Ibr he is Omnipresent. 2nd. Cod existing thruu!i,li,aiul on every part of this plank, t. e. time, every motion made tlu-rcon must ho present to liiin. 3rd. God exists at the fiirlher end of this plank, that is, ])eyond all time— when time is swallowed uji in eternity— and everything there must be also present to him, because he exists there. Now what I wish to remark is this, that it is just as possible for tho Divine Being to exist beyoiul all time, where the linal issue and end of all are present to bun, Avithout this knowledge efli:cting in the least the moral violtiou oi'man ; as it was for tho l)oy to stand at the end of the ].lank, twelve feet beyond tho starting point of tho marble, and ul;scrve its beginning and its end, on the plank, without such observation and kuowledgo eflccting its motion either to hinder or to help it. BTr. Jl, here introduces liimsdf as foUmvs : — Mr. TI. I understand from Mr. G. that you and ho have had (piite a controversy on religious subjects, and that there is a wide difh-rence between you, as lar as you have gone. But if I am rightly informed you have not touched upon thoso points that are calculated to lead directly into tho merits of tho case, or in other words to lead to a conclusion, and set the matter at rest. Mr. G. is not much of a controversalist, and therefore might not be able to sustain his position, notwith- standing the correctness of hissentimcuts, in which I have tho fullest conlidenco ; and to prevent misgivings in your mind by further defending the doctrine of Universal Salvation, is my only business hero to-day. Meth. The difleronco of opinion more properly is between Mr. G. and the Lord .fesus Christ, and I have more than onco advised him to go and settle it and (piarrel no more with his Maker; And as you so heartily concur in his opinion, I would any tho same to you, for certainly if you arc half as obstinate as Mr. G., I would raliier not oator into conversation with you, and especially on points of doctrine, for I. think it would bo lost '•bour. "ut lest you should think that I desire to evade ^ 28 controversy through foar of a defeat a„ 1 '^ot as yet entered upon the noi t H . "' ^'°" "'^ '''' ''«^'« <^onch,s;on, I ,s„bnut' ' ^ ''"' ^^^" ^"^^^^ "^ t<^ « rational ^"d an invest,,,,;, ^ ^J^ """'"-^^ -"-^ "-ral ev,l. «t«ndi„g.ofthesubjcet;thi ist ' 'T'^"' ^" ^ ''^5^' ""'ler- yo" Jo not pretend/to te ol "' ^^k on -.vJuel, you split; for Punishment in eternity tIJ, ^''fT'' T'-^'" ^^"^ death, and -tnral evil is the res^it o^ "r. t^T^ ^^ considered tS you not know that many en I 'n?:' organisation? and do -t n,oral evd is the necLa s ,u IV'"" •■''^' ^^ ^'- opnnou IS my opinion. ■ ^^^^'^^ "^^ "^^ural evil ; this also ^^'■^Z'. This is what yon o.Il fi.. ="'"e. When I heard thV irf r "7''^ "^ ^''« ^^'^^ ^ Pro- r 'omy, and I have not a y eL "' f '' ''^""^^''^"^ ^« '^'-- «t-Hl your arg,nnent u stalds uf t /"'r/'""'' '' ' ""d"" ^ constuution wluoh unav'"^ L ! '* ]''' ?"' "^«''« "^^n wuh 'J'l>ose natural evils nee s ■ ' ^ ^^ T T^ ""^"'•^^' '-^vds. o.,/ i-"' of fact stands tS;:^jr;'r':'' "--^ -'ii .• whieh "«*<>ral cvd, natuml evi nee s 'a . "^?'^^'"'^y r-Hl"ced by --tmuion; the Inunan e^^^^^^^^^^ the h-nnan' ofthe creative energy of thof ''^ necessary result f -- 1st. That au,: .t.^^ -f f • , '^ "-^ ^«- thi.:;: ■ IS wrong-if ,t is sin-it is eh, ^ ""' ^""'"^^ ' "^ 2nd, if it "^-^/ron^thefaet,hat,ae or ;?! '^^ "^""^■^'^' --' -t ou h'"> "^ «ueh a way that hselJx.r"'' "''"""'''' ^■"^' "^••^''« «ary production of sin. .«.o tIntTvh i ' T '''"-'^' ^''« "'''^««- of moral evil, your argument .1 ' ^''" "''""' ^''« '''^-tenco ^-^- ny tlus coursed C, 'en v^'"" '"'^^ '' "^'■^'"-^-' ^ »"^ner, and yet upon UiX^^^"; '':'''' '^^ '"^ '^'^ ^^^^ty hope of the salvat on oi all nie ? "''' ^"'' build your yonr argun.ent represent rr^;:!^'^' '' ^"^'' ^ ^^^ al wlmtever to ^. U^i,,,,,, Salvn 'io » IIT' "" ^'^^ "° ^^"« »"«" under the oneuuKstances of whie '^"' "'^'"^ "^'^^^J «o which man is subject ,n, sf 1 T, ^"" "i^^""^' ^hoso evih And conH.,.ently yo!^ ^^^ m^^ T ' '' '"'=" ^« ««^ »t «ot only proves that lie ^ nm ' h ' ""'''' '"' y°" '' '«' can punish the guilty, but that h« y vve lis re • n rational 't touched, loral evil, ht iiiuler- '■ split ; for tliat it is cath, and ered that ? and do ' opinion this also 'e I pre- to blas- r under- fill M'ith Is. 2nd. hich in iced by li'iman result thi>! it d, if it not oil ' mado neces- stenco ted in 'guilty your "gas ' cluo rated evils God, ; for It ho dflights in punishing the innocent ulso, and that he made with this intention, and for this spiteful pur[)uso. man ill/-. If. 1 d o not say that man does not deserve any punish- ment, hut r contend he does not deserve eternal punishment. Mrfh. Yos, hut your plea for salvation on the t,'rounds that man does not deserve eternal punishment, or that he deserves no tuorc tliau he receives in time, is good for nothing, from the fact that he deserves none at all, if moral evil is the necessary result of his eonstiluti(jii ; and yet you say they are inuiished here all Ihey deserve. Now if they are punished for that which is tho necessary result of their constitution, they are punished unjustly; for it is as good reasoning to say that man ought to bo punished Jor his existence which he could not avoid, as it is to say that ho oiigiit to be punished for sin which is the necessary conse- quence of that existence. For if mankind are punished in time fV)r tho existence of that which they could not prevent, and Cod inllicts this punishment under those circumstances, it would be a demonstrative proof that (Jod was ,an unkind and cruel benig. And if these principles exist in tho Deity, and nro manifested in time, we may expect they will be in eternity, and to what extent who can tell? Ilene your argument goes fully more to prove universal damnation, than it does universal .salvation. Mr. II. Notwithstanding the severity and dogmatism that have characterized your reply to what I before said, yet nothing therein has convinced me that I am in an error, when I say, that there must have been i)ropensities to sin in Adam, or ho could not have sinned. And if there wore propensities to sin in ium, then sin was tho necessary result of these pro- pensities. That man has propensities to sin, all men who bolicvo tlicre is avr such tiling as sin, will admit, and inasmuch ns man has this propensity ikav, I contend he always had it, for tho radical constitution of man has not changed. Tho infant exhibits propensities to sin which are inscperably con- nected with its existence. Hence, God creates men now with propensities to sin. This I think you will not deny ; for if they are creatures at all, they must have a Creator. I am sure you wi'i, /ot say that any ono short of God can create man ; why then am I not safe in saying that God created the first mnn with propensities to sin? For they were exhibited in him, and that too, 30 . stage of his existence ; there- -... ne must liave got them from some source, and T say all he Imd he rec<-ived A-o.n God. Tell me what he had, whether connected w,th body or muid, thr.t he did not receive from God: and when you have answered that, I will give you some more, for I have more on hand, some of which perhaps voii may think rather intricate. ^ Mcth. I believe it is a general custom among Universalists to argue by asking questions, and some of those questions are very much like your remaining ones, "quite i.itrieate," so much so, that they themselves cannot answer them. And if this should be the case witii some of yours, I shall not be much surprise.!, neither will it be the fust instance of the kind that has come under my own observation. But let me observe that your pretended artillery behind will have no tendency to dis- coumge me at least, until brought forth. And when you brin- them forward, as I am in search of truth, I shall stand to my ix)si ion m spite of repeated sylogisms, till driven therefrom by tJie bayonet of scriptural and philosophical argument. There- fore you will not only have to produce your tremendous artil- cry, but you will have to use it. You seem to convey the Idea that God is still at work creating human souls and bodies. You say, "God creates men now with propensities to sin:" to this I remark, God does not create men at present, either with or without propensities to sin ; for he does not create them at all, the work of creation was long since finished. God created Uiit one man, and one woman, and those who now exist have derived their existence from the first pair, therefore it is not strictly true that God creates men "now," much less that he creates them with propensities to sin." You say yoii judge of the past, by the present." My impression is, tiiat if you work much by this rule yon will find it a bad one, and even in the present case I think you will find it will not work well I'or If I understand your object, in judging of the past by the present, it is to deny the full of man, and draw an argument froin his present fallen condition, to p..ve that he was created with propensities to sin. That ho has " now" propensities to siu I admit, but that ho alwavs ha,i. r rlnuy on the authority of tho Bible. The following T regard as one proof among many : « And God saw every thing that he hud made, < I k f 31 and behold it was very good ;" the man therefore must have been very good 1 Mr. II. To understand that test, hterally, will prove too much for you, for if all that God made was literally good, you would not only have a good man but a good boast, a good fish, a good bird, and as you believe in the existence of a little devil, then God must have made him, and you would have a good devil also. The text you will perceive, I think does not refer to moral goodness. The expression is used vould be worse than nothing, inasmuch as there was no otfen'ce given. Do you think that 1 would be under any obligation to ask pardon even of the Almighty, if I had never transgressed lis law? Or suppose I had gone contrary to his proscribed ^w being propelled by principles implanted within me by the God that made me, should I ask pardon ?-would you, or anv other reasonable maul I think not. And should God grant a pardon" under those circumstances, it would be no satis- faction to me and it would be no honor to himself. Indeed, « a pardon" of this nature would be regarded by all men as an insult rather than looked upon as a favor. You think the Scrip ures will bear you out in your opinion. Your quotation js not exactly correct. It reads as follows : " I form the ight and create darkness; I make peace and create evil ; I. the Lord, do all these things," Isa. 45 : 7. By reading Ihe Chapter you will see,-lst. That it has no reference to our first parents, to whom you have applied it. Verses 12 and 13 read thus : " I have made the earth and created man upon it ; and I even my hands have stretched out the heavens, and all their' host have I corimianded. I liave raised him up in righteous- ness, and I will direct all his ways." Now, as these fifteen verses, in which are embraced those above, all refer to the same circumstance, it follows that if your text should be applied to our first parents, to prove that God ^re-^-d ♦h-m With evil propensities, it would involve a contradiction.' "you 87 will perceive that verse 13 says, " I have raised him up in ri^":ht- eoiisiiess." The whole context refers to the Jews in captivity. " Good and evil" refers to their national prosperity and ad- versity ; him that God raised in riglittonsnoss was Cyrus the Persian prince ; and no part of it has any reference to the original state of man, which was the suhject under considera- tion. Univ. I am willing to waive iliat question if you will come to the point, and tell me whether it is, or is not, the prerogative of God to pardon the transgressor notwithstanding he annexed to the transgression of his law the penalty of death, was it his prerogative to revoke that sentence] 31elli,. What you mean by " revoking the sentence," I pre- sume, is granting a pardon without an atonement ; and if that is what you mean, I would say it is absolutely impossible in the nature of things. Univ. Then all things are not possible with God ; and if he could not revoke a sentence, and pardon a criminal, his power, in that respect, is not equal to an earthly monarch. Meth. All the acts of God, at all times, in all places, and on all occasions, must agree Avith the holiness, justice, benevo- lence, wisdom, and the immutability of his character. But to extend pardon to the rebellious, on your principle, would be in- compatible with his attributes, and his office as Supreme Gov- , ernor of the universe. This, I think, will be made plain by the following considerations: 1st. Had God revoked the sentence it would have argued weakness on his part — as much as if he had said, my law was too rigorous — too severe — the transgression does not require so great punishment — indeed it requires none, therefore I revoke the sentence. 2d. He would have proved himself a mutable being by revoking the sen- tence. This would have shown a want of firmness — hence it never could have been said, " I, the Lord, change not." 3rd. It would contravene the ends of good goveinment, for this rea- son : To revoke a sentence because the law was trans- gressed, would be to encourage rebellion m every part of his empire. 4th. It Avould give just cause of complaint to all good subjects, on the ground that their iKippincsfj and safety were thereby endangered — the Supreme Magistrate having 38 freatcd liis huv with indifference by rpvokfng tlio soiitonce passed npon the n-bcllio.is. r)tli. To o-'-iUit pnrdon nnoondition- ally, and conlinn(? flie i.onalty, wo.ild he injnally inuhirioiis to good oov.TiiuuMit, from the fact tiiat if one r.reive.s pardon wilhoMl conditions, anotlicr would naturally ONpeet it. And iv law of this kind woiMd have no tendency wliutever to prevent evil, hnt rather t(j encoinaf;e it, Univ. Worse ! and worse ! for if God cannot pudon a sin- iier without impeachin-- liis character as ii |.nl)lic oilie, r, t would like to know how any can be saved according to y.inr own doctrine. For yon say man must repent and obtain a knowledge of sins forgiven, in order to be savdl. Mcth. What I said before had a reference to the Divine administiation aside from the atonement. And the reason of my speaking as I did (the truth of which I still maintam) was because I f^aw yon had ainunl a dctith-blow (!) at t lie atonement of Christ. Hilt now, 1 would remark, that although the law condeuHis the sinner to death for liavmg violated its just claims, yet, through the atoneineut, the sentence may be sng peniled,— pardon offered on the conilitions of the Cospel— llnj sinner saved i( he conf.nu thereto— the purity oi' the Diviuo character retained— his law honored— and the ends of good government preserved. Ihil all this, maik yon! h beeauso Jesus Christ has died, the just fur the unjust. Univ. If you have proved nuylhing here, it is oidy that nn atonement was required; and, according to your view of tho nature of aton-inenl,!ill nuMi will ultimately be saved. Vou believe that Christ died for every man ; and Paul plainly inli- mates that in Christ all the human family will be saved: " For ns in Adam all ilie,eveu so in Christ shall all be niiide alive." Mith. li' I have proved the necessity o( an atonement to provide for the salvation of man, by olK'riiig panlon, ( havo proved too much for you. For if man could not ho saved with- out an luaiorable medium, through which (,\,Hleoul,l died (Lr all. U/iic. I mean this,— yon believe that Chi^ist died for every man— that the truiisgressioiis of all men, iu every part and age of the worUl, were hud upon him -that iiis sulferings und death were e.iunl to them all-aiul lliat th.-ivl.y the demands of justice were lully met in the person of Christ. Methodist theology coincides with this. The hanukr of .Methodism iu bis poetry, in many places, expresses this sentiment; but most cmphati- Cally in Iho fullowing words: " Tlic (l.lil 'si di.Mlunirril. ihc ransom 's paid ; My Futlior llllHt lai^jivo." Mvtk. I havo never said, neither do I believe-, that th«5 death of Christ was equal to the sins of any nam ; fur it wnn not on this principle that he died. Much 'ess would I say that his death was o.pial to the sins (fall manlund. ^u equivalent to their siu3 waa nut required ; and iu the nature of tilings it could not be given. The death of Christ was never intended to meet tho full demands of the law. The law has the same claim upon tho sinner eoimecled wuii the death uf Chnst, as it )ms aside from the dcuth of Christ. Fo: althougU CUnst has 40 died, yet the law holds the sinner guilty, and justly condemns him to death, for hnviiig violated its righteous claims. To ex- plain this subject, i'ldly — in its relations to the suiner, to the law of God, to the Divine Uenig, as the jinblic oilicor of the universe ; or, in other words, the oupieme Magistrate, to the entire uni- verse — woidd occupy too mnch time, not only for yon, hut for me also. Yet, as it is a very important point, I must briefly notice a few i).irticnlars : 1st. The Scriptures represent Christ as having been made a curse for us; not that he was literally cursed by (!od, ui our stead, but only on this principle ; because it is written, "cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." 2d. He is represented as bearing our sins in his own body ; as carrying them away ; as being wounded in our stead. 3d. As having be light us with a price. Now you will observe that all these figurative expressions concentrate and end in one great truth, viz : that Christ died to make it possible for Cod to par- don the sinner. For if Clirist had entered into a commercial contract, and paitl literally the full value of all our souls, then there would have been no need of his bearing " our sins in his own body on the tree." If " bearing our sins" means to suiler all that whieh the sinner deserves, then there was no need that we should be " bought with a jirice," because this Would be to pay u double ])rice : 1st. To suiler all that was due to the sin- ner ; and, 2d, To purchase him by u commercial contract. The upshot of the whole is this: Cod loved the sinner, and was good enough to pardon him, but could not consistent with his character as 8upri'me Unier of the universe. Christ died I and the dignity of his rank ; the superior excellence of his per- son; and the holiness of liis character, told to the universe that the sentence which the law passed upon the sinner was just, and that the law was more honored by the death ofsuehaper- Bon than it possibly could have been had its claims been liter- ally met by their individual suHerings. Therefore the Divine fcharaoter, on the principle of the atonotiici't, could be sustained ill olll-ring parilon. Tlie holy intelligencies of ollur worlds ■would see, that while Cod loved the sinner, yet he regarded his luw. Christ honored that law by his death, 'i'he sinnet could now he saved on the grounds of repentance, and faith ia Christ. Ciyd, while ho saved the sinner, was justj the •■ 41 ./nds of guud guvLM-nmoiit preserved ; find all holy intelligencies Ihrouirhout Jeliovalfs empire, us llicy become ticquaiuted with Ihe woiKlerful and glorious plan, will re-echo their acclama- lions in loudest strains. Oh ! the depths of the riches, both of the wisiloia and mercy of Clod. Reader !— Allow lac to make a few additional remarks; and, lst,"I wi:ih to observe that the dialogue through which you have passed grew out of a real circumstance to which the writer was ii witness. 2d. It was not published with th- ex- pectation of presenting you with any thing particularly new or deep. It was not intended for those who have applied theii minds to the study of those subjects, and understand them iii uU their bearings. 3d. Yon perceive it only touches upon a fow of those controverted points, which are urged nguinst the principle of future r, wards and punishments, with so much assurance ; yet these few points that are brought forward in the dialogue, are among the most potent; and if they have been refutcl, they must fall in the estimation of all discernmg and honest minds ; and, as a matter of course, every subordinate ob- jection falls with them. rcrmit ine to ask you a few cpiestions : Arc you a Metho- dist] If you are, you have cndjraced those sentiments which we hold most dear— which we highly value and regard as !Serii)tnrul ; yet, do not think yourself inevitably safe— think not tliat your belief will save you, unless it is constantly re- duced to u practical use. Do you think your firmness is a suf- ficient guarantee for your present and eternal happiness, and that nothing can move you from those principles which you now hold, and those practices to which you now adhere? If this ' i3 your ease, it is an addii ional evidence thai you have still cause 10 watch and i>ray. ♦* lie not, therefore, highminded, but tear ;" and fear, too, lest a promise being left you of entering into that rest, you should at last como short of it. Guard, then, against every kind and degree of skepticism, lest you, tvcn you, should, full from the hope of the (iospvl. But should these lines meet the eye of a Uni versa list, allow mc to appeal to your reason, by asking you, in the first place, IV) you claim to be infallible t Do you think your judgmen*:- ^ -f :. 42 surpasses that of all other men ? As a reasonable person, you world not dare to exhibit snch presumption and self-conceit, as to answer in the aflirmativc ; and if not, yon must see, at least, a possibility of your being in a mistake. And should you be' znisktaken in your view, and Lluse views havinir influenced your conduct, I wish to enquire il' yon have considered the con- sequences? That we may bring this matter a little closer, lot us s.ippose a case, fur example. In making your estimate of men, you Ibrm a high opinion of a neighbor, in whom yon place implicit con- lidence, but at length find yourself mistaken. Now, this hasty conclusion of yours may beatlendeil with a serious loss of prop- erty, as well as nuich mortification of feeling, and deep remorse for your imprudence ; yet the consideration that you have oppor- tunity to improve, tends to sootli your feelings, wliile the present loss and affliction become ubserbed in the cheermg hope of future amendment. Here is a case, then, where you liave learned a useful lesson, but sustained a heavy loss. You have bought wisdoni v.t a dear rate ; yet, permit me to say that the loss which you will sustain by embracing and acting upon the principles of Uni- versalism, is so far beyond all this, that they scarcely admit oi' comparison. Remember it is no less tiian the loss of your soul: That Universalism has thii tendency, is indubitably evident from the following considerations: 1. It stands opposed to tue word of God. Nothing isfuund in the holy Bible that will favor it in the let;st. True, its i)retension3 are great, but they are ill ibundod. Its j.roinises, we are awnre, arc numerous, but they are abortive, ^\'e do not deny but it has its threatenings, but they are so exceedingly lew, and so remarkably faint, that no one fears them. Its principles stand opposed to such commandments as tiie following : "Do to all men as ye would they should do to you. " Lovo your enemies ; bless them that curse you." " Tuy all their dues." Forsake not the nsstmbling of yourselves together, as the manner of some IS. The principles of ruiversalisni not only prompt men to slight these and similar injunetions, InU opemting in connec- tion with the di-pravcd and falLli nulnii; uf man, ill lead him in the opponite course. So that «• enter into thy closet"—" pruy ,. 43 witliout ceasing"—" repent and be converted," &;c., are utterly despised. 2. (Tnivcrsalism disregards the threatenings of the Bible — such, for oxunipU% as: ■' The wicked shall be turned into hell, with all the nations that forget God"—" they shall be cast into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone"—" these shall go away into everlasting punishment" — "the soul that sinneth it shall die" — " depart ye cursed into everlasting fire." These, and every other of a similiar character,-are looked upon with a sneer of contempt. 3. Its tendency, instead of helping, is to suppress religious prineipK's and practices. It holds forth no kind of inducement to holiness; and manifcsls no concern for the happiness, nor any regret at the wickedness of mankind. 4'. 13ut it tends very much to encourage wickedness, ol every kind and degree. If the word of God says, " Thou shalt not lake the name of tlic Lord thy Cod in vain;" " Thou shalt not steal "or murder, or bear false witness, cr covet, or break the Sabbath, &c., Universahsm comes up with all the shame- less impudence of a fiend, and gravely promises eternal salva- tion to all mankind, whether these injimctions are observed or not. T). Are yon ut the head of a family, and influenced by these soul-destroying principles ? I would entreat you, if you have no jeg;\rd for yt)ur own soul, to try at least ami exercise some pity on your eliildren. Do not take the advantage of them, by in- fusing into their minds at the dawn of reason, those pernicious principles. rerlia[i8 you find it no difticult thing to reproach tiie people of (Jud, and encourage those committed to your cure to do the same: and to brand the followers of (J od as "en- thusiasts" may bo to yoa a source of pleasure. IJut suppose, in the midst of your sport, and in the height of your glee, you should bo cut off by sudden death, as thousands liavo been before you. And suppose when the dreadful realities ol" eternity are first unlolded to your view, you fitul it to be a fuel, that you have made your bed in hell. Solemn thought! — what is wrong] Should you then be compelled to rc})ly to si\ch nitorrogation, your answer would be, — Universalism is a (iiUaey. 1 um lost! forever lost!! lost beyond the icach of 4-r mcay. Tii this condition, wliat do you think yon wonldbe' inlliug to give (snpposo yon had it in your possession) to o-et^ Ijack that precious time which yon havesi)eut in p-rvortino- Uie' Scriptures, and twisting- them to suit yonr ou-u oarnrd fedinrr.s nud establish a system which has mined your sonl for ever' and ever. But, in conchision, let mo ask what harm can it poss.l)lv do you to renounce those principles 1 What loss will you or'car you sustain? Surely none in tempuMl things ; for what has Uuiversahsm given you in this respect that other men do no*, pos- sess. They ajypcar to he no hetter off in the world than other men. Do you think you will lose your reputation and become imi)opular?-^you ought to have no concern on this ground, from the fact that if you are popular at all in religious uiatters, it is only among that class of people, which, I am thank I to know, forms but a small part of the community. And il' popularity should be your only object, you wohld be greatly the gainer ; for where you lost on one hand, on the other you woidd cain u hundred fold. ]t is true, you will have to leave offvour^un- godly companions, but this will surely be no loss; on the con- trary, it will be a gain ; especially in a temporal point of vie«-, huth of health, time, and money. The intellect will sustain no loss by this change of sentiment and circumstfaiccs. Many iiave tried it and lost nothing in this res])ect. UniversalLsm, instead of enlargiiiL--, has a powor- iid tendency to contract the mind. Those who~ adhere to this theory, very soon become Togmatists ; and a dogmatist in re- ligion is not liir from a biggot ! 'J'here is no religious loss to be sustained by renouncing Univeisalism ; for if it deserves the name of religion at all, it would be still a religion oj.posed to that of the IJible; and all such religions arc better lost than kept. Header, search for truth, search dilligentlv, be pei«ever- - aig, be determined to obtain it, never mind the cost ; love truth \ for truth's sake ; buy it, but, mark yyu, never sell it ' ! . 6X999^P DiS /^^^ flts>tix^