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' "I'-j.-': ■ ' ' ■ C::^:/ ;#■ V- .'. - \ . ' > ' if> J '■ . .. . \ ' ' t ■•:(.(' l^;ii- '■■v ' 'U: >\-' ^i;-:45-.^ '^■..■-; T!prri\ ' . '■■-^v^^^':. ,-;,.,„',/: : ^^^^BBBBMIiiiimiyii'iT ry^itiT"''i ^^ i ' ' ■Ai'-y\ ■;■■ . " .• THE PACIFIC RAILWAY POLICY. By way of preface to the speeches which follow, we give the following, which appeared in the Parliamentary correspondence of the Montreal Gazette on Sir Charles Tapper's speech, in which the railway policy of the late and present Administrations was contrasted, and a statement made of the progress and estimated cost of the great national work. The letter was dated Ottawa, 15th April : — The floor and galleries were early filled this afternoon, and an unusual air of expectant interest was noticeable. Her Royal Highness the Princess Louise honored Sir Charles Tupper by coming to hear him on that most important of all subjects just now, the Canadian Pacific Railway. The routine business was quickly run through, so that by half-past three Sir Charles was fairly under way. Commencing with deliberation^ and hold- ing the ear of the House at once, he put in a few well chosen words as to the magnitude and gravity of the question. Then followed a sketch, Jiistorical and polemic, of the policies of the preceding Governments. He established in the most incisive manner Mr. Mackenzie's assumption of tl.e construction of the Pacific Railway and the vast extension of that previous liability which had been so much condemned and distrusted by the Reform party when on the V/xong side of the House . The Georgian Bay branch and the Canada Central subsidy added four millions at one end, the Esquimault and Nanaimo road the same sum at the other. Then there was a hard hit at the famous " Carnarvon terms," which have now become so proverbial that, like most adages, their original mearing is often for- gotten. Some of your readers may be astonished to be reminded that Aey meant (ist) the construction of the Nanaimo and Esquimault branch ; (2nd) the pushing on of the surveys on the mainland of British Columbia ; (3rd) the building of the waggon road and telegraph ; (4th) two millions of dollars a year to be the minimum expenditure within the province ; (5th) the completion of the whole line from Lake Superior to the Pacific in 1890. After all this. Sir Charles Tuppcr'3 enquiry whether this Government is not -entitled to at least the support of the Opposition for a policy which pro- mises but a comparatively moderate expenditure and immediate results, had much appropriateness, and all the more when the eno'^mous Reform 233594 expenditure upon works which remain useless without the completion of the missing links and the construction of enough of the main line to serve as a feeder, is taken into consideration. Sir Chiles began to toke a little: of the wind out of Mr. Bike's sails by reminding him that he abetted all this expenditure by entering the Ministry which undertook it. A point which will meet with welcome is the statement of the reduction of cost that is expected on the works already undertaken. Instead of " basing con- tracts upon guess work and hypotheses," Sir Charles has brought his engineers down to work and figures. The result is already a saving of $319,000 in the estimated cost of section 41, The same process is going on on section 42, and we have the assurance that those contracts will be completed within the time stated, and that their cost will be reduced by over half a million dollars. Mr. Mackenzie's British Columbia tactics give him the option of explaining whether, when he advertised for tenders for the Yale-Kamloops line, he meant business, or whether, if it was, as he now says, an elec- tioneering trick, he was justified in spending $32,400 for carrying rails from: Victoria to Yale. " Litera scripta manet." Hansard is an awkward! repository of words sometimes. So Mr. Mackenzie found it when he denied his depreciation of the public lands for pCiitical ends. He was- nailed at once by his own speech, in effect saying that not only had settler* to be given land for nothing, but to be paid for going to the Northwest.. His dogging of the English mission 6f last year, and his patriotic letter to> the Manchester Examiner^ in which Canadian credit and Canadian energy were alike vilified, got a sharp touching up from Sir Ch5oo,ooo ; add $1,000,000 ; making a total of $60,000,000 to build the road from Lake Superior to the Pacific. The cost of surveys — $ i , 6 1 2 ,000 in British Columbia; $1,507,000 in the eastern sections, a total of $3,119,000 — has to be added. Then there is the Pembiija Branch, costing $1,750,000, making a total of $64,869,000, The 600 miles from Fort William to Lake Nipissing may be deferred for some years, but 'f Sir Charles Tupper's anticipations ^ pr9ve true, it will not be long before public feeling, the development of th? ,. Northwest, and the competition for its enormous grain trade will demand the completion of the great national through route. Mr. Fleming's estimate of its cost is $20,000,000 ; Sir Charles thinks it might be fairly put at $30,000 per mile ; but taking the latter figure, it would cost $20,000,000, and would makr a grand total of $84,870,000; taking the mean, say, in round numbers, $85,000,000. Now, where is the money to come from? Sir Charles, taking Sir John Macdonald's figures, and backed up by the Globe in doing so, shows that if only 550,000 people settle in the Northwest during the next ten years — and this, it must be remembered, is an estimate based on the actual immi- gration of the past few years — the country will receive from the sale of lands $38/000,000 in cash, and will have $32,000,000 falling in for the balances remaining, secured upon the lands sold— $70,000,000 in all, or enoug^h to build the road from Lake Superior to the Pacific. In defence of the umler- taking of the Yale-Kamloops section. Sir Charles found the Globe again a potent ally. For that newspaper, counting upon the settlement in British Columbia of 100,000 people only, which it argues is a number there is no reason to doubt, shows that they would pay the cost of the line in the Pacific Province. The commercial prospects of the railway were ably discussed. If Sir Charles Tupper seems to take a sanguine view, he has abundant in- formation for it in the receipts of the Pembina branch for March of this year — $24,771, or equal to 17 per cent, per annum on the capital. With, this exemplar, the 700 miles that will be in operation in 1882 bid fair to at least pay the interest upon their cost. That your readers may appreciate the progress of railway communication with the Northwest, it may be as well to state that these 700 miles are made up as follows : — 406 from Thunder Bay to Selkirk on the Red River, the branch thence to Winnipeg 13 miles, 200 west of Winnipeg, and the Pembina branch south 85 miles. The Sault Ste. Marie project, its importance and its superiority over the United States lines, with which it would contend for the western carrying trade, were touched upon, Sir Charles frankly owning his former doubts of its usefulness, and accounting for his change of opinion. Montreal will read with satisfac- tion his remarks on this subject. A speech remarkable as much for its solidity and accuracy of statement as for its easy delivery and the readiness with which casual objections were ^ dealt with, was wound up by d peroration patriotic not political, and as bril-^ ' liant as it was broad in scope and statesmanlike. The applause that fol- lowed was beyond the usual measure that the House accords. It is seldom indeed that a national event, such as to-day's exposition of the Government's policy may well be deemed, is so thoroughly brought home to the people of Canada and so ably impressed upon the minds of their representatives. Never, I believe, since the days of 1873, with one exception only, that of the introduction of the National policy, have the galleries been so filled, nor has there been such intense general interest in any political topic. r"i.>i. iix Hi' iU\ t -3/ f 1 f , ,'.ni THE PACIFIC RAILWAY DEBATE. ■ «•> ■ HON. SB CHAELES TAPPER'S SPEECH. '.ifC' i! 0, on rootipn to go into Committee On Thursday, April the 1 5th,' it pf Supply, Sir Charles Tupper rose and said : — Mr. Speaker, — I had intended to submit to the House the resolutions respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, required by the circumstances that have occurred between the period at which the resolutions were carried, last session, and the present time, but I do not intend to pursue that course because if might be thought more convenient, that, as arranged, the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake), should have an opportunity, upon the conclusion of my statement, of making the motion, of which he has given notice, and which he would be precluded from doing, if I were to submit at this moment the resolutions I shall, at a later period, ask the House to concur in. On rising to address the House, on one of the most important questions that can engage its attention, I pro- pose, on the present, as on the last occasion on which I addressed the House on this jubject last session, to avoid in the fair and candid criticism to which I shall be obliged to subject the proceedings and policy of the honorable gentleman opposite, the use of a single remark, in the least degree calculated to turn the current of this debate from the channel in which it is desirable it should run. I feel that if there is any question that could be brought un- der the consideration of the House, that it is requisite to deal with in the ca'mest, most dispassionate and judicial manner, it is the great ques- tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It will be, however, necessary, in the somewhat changed attitude of honorable gentlemen opposite, as foreshadowed by the promised resolution of the member for West Durham, that I should as briefly as is possible describe the position that, in my judgment, the two parties in this House occupy in relation to this question. The House will remember, that when this Government was in power, in 187 1, and British Columbia was brought into the Confederation, it was decided that we should grapple with the great question of the con- struction of the Canadian Pacifx Railway, by which all the various pro- vinces would be brought into more rapid and easy communication. When in a position to submit a formal proposition to the House, in 1872, by which it was hoped to accomplish the construction of that work, the Gorernment submitted a proposal to grant $30,000,000 and 50,000,000 acres of land in order tc cover the expenditure connected with it. At the time that policy was resolved upon, a resolution, in order to meet the apprehension which existed in and out of the House, as to the very serious responsibility the Government was about to incur, was proposed and carried, and it became 6 substantially a part of the terms of union with British Columbia, that that work should be constructed, not by the Government, but by private enter- prise, aided by a grant of lands and money to that extent. But even that was limited by the declaration placed before the House, that the progress of thai worlc should not involve »n hicrease in the then rate of taxattoh. Mr. Blake — Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper — ^Now, I am a little surprised to find the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake; taking exception to the statement I have made, that it formed a part of the terms of union with British Columbia, because the Government of which that honorable gentleman was a member, at a later date, found ii con- venient to fall back upon that resolution, and embodied it in a M»r.ute-of- Council which they offered to British Columbia, and to the Imperial Gov- ernment as well, as a reason for qualifying the engagement that was entered into. I am safe, I think, in saying that there is no man in this House, there is no intelligent man in t'tiu country, that would not heartily concur in the accuracy of the statement, that it would be greatly in the interest of Canada if it had been possible to accomplish the construction of (tat work upon those terms. Honorable gentlemen opposite took exception on many occa- sions to the sufficiency of the means, that were thus provided for the con- struction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I think the honorable member for Lambton (Mr. Mackenzie), when the leader of the Government, at a public meeting at Whitby, committed himself to the statement that we might as well have offered $io, as $30,000,000 and 50,000.000 acres of land for the purpose of securing the construction of that work, so strongly did he feel the entire inadequacy of the means proposed. Now, it will not be at all necessary for me to discuss the circumstances under which the Government found itself unable to accomplish the construction of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway upon those terms. We are sufficiently familiar with that view of the question to render that entirely unnecessary. But we went out of office, and the duty and responsibility of dealing with this great ques- tion devolved upon the gentleman, who, during the subsequent five years, led the Government of this country. Now, J think, we must all admit that successive Governments must pay great deference to, and must hold them- selves to a large extent responsible — for carrying out the policy of their predecessors. I am satisfied we all agree in the opinion that it is only under the gravest circumstances that a new administration is in a position to repu- diate, if I may so speak, the engagements in relation to a great publiw ques- tion, to which their predecessors have committed the country under the authority of Parliament. But I quite admit it was in the power of the hon- orable gentleman who was then called upon to form an administration, to say that since, in Parliament, he had opposed the policy of attempting to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway, tfiat he believed this country could not engage in a work of such gigantic magnitude without seriously injuring the^financial position of the country — that, under those circumstances, he must decline to hold himself responsible for the engagement into which his predecessOiS had entered. The honorable gentleman had that course open to him, because Parliament, having declared that the work should only be constracted provided a conipany could be found, aided to the extent before that that ite enter- ven that egress of stated, to accomplish it as a private undertaking, and the effort to obtain the construction of the work under the terms sanctioned by Parliament hav- ing failed, it was open to him, I say, frankly to state to the House, that he was unablr to carry oirt the policy to which his predecessors had committed tlie country. The honorable gentleman did not adopt that course. Soon after his accession to power he visited his constituents for the purpose of declaring, as Pri.ne Minister, what the policy of his Government was in rela- tion to this great question. Well, sir, the honorable gentleman, much to the surprise of many of his friends, and greatly tc the astonishment of < hose with whom he had formerly been in conti _ . rsy upon the question, com- mitted himself in the most unqualified mann \ to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He said, and I \i\ quoting from the organ oi .his party in this city : — I have always thought that «peedy meaag of c mmuaication. across the conti- jDeat wer« necoHsary for settlement, ami for the pui^^ose of opening up the district where we have great riches UDde>veloped in the i^hoin of the earth. Without that communication their development cannot tuke 'lace, and emigration cannot be expected." Now, with the great North West in our possession to be •peopled, and a declaration that the constructfon of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway was essential to the development of the j;reat resources of Canada, referring, undoubtedly, to the mine- ral resources of British Columbia — a declar-ition that immigration to this country could not be hoped for, imless that work was undertaken, committed, on the grounds of the broadest considerations of public policy, the honorable gentleman, to the construction of that work. J8ut he went much further. He stated, in that address, that it was his i^-^n- tion to proceed with this great work in an entirely diflFerent mannei ..om that which his predecessors had propounded, and which Parliament had authorized, and that was as a Government work. He gave, on that occa- sion, the very substantial reason that, if it was constructed as a Government work, the people would receive the profit instead of the contractors. The honorable gentleman, consistent with that declaration, came down to Parlia- ment with a measure for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He has frequently referred to the fact that one of the first clauses of that act provided that it must not increase the existing rate of taxation; that he had adhered to the policy propounded by the previous Government and sanc- tioned by Parliament : that there must be no increase of taxation connected with the undertaking. But he did not recount that which Parliament had com- mitted Itself to and sanctioned, and that 'vas the declaration that it should not be done by the Government, a declaration that the honorable gentleman himseilf had voted for, and that his friends and supporters had supported, but that it must be done by a private company, aided by a grant of lands and money. That provision was swept away. It is true, however, that he provided in his bill for the prosecution of the work in very much the same manner as that propounded by his predecessors, provided the parties could be found to take it up. 1 think those who have not recently read that Act will be a little surpnsed to learn that he went further than his predecessors m the .means which he provided from the public resources for the purpose of '8 prosecuting the work. The honorable gentleman covered the whole ground, m his bill. He said : — :,ns and allowed cil, and 'e pro- on of ost of honor- able- geintkihan did not stop here. Having changed the- position of Parliamient altogether, in relation to the great obligation of con- structing the Canadian Pacific Railway, by providing that the Govern- ment themselves should either have the power to give the contract to the company who would construct the road on the conditions contained in the measure, or take up that work, as a Government work, and carry it to com- pletion, the honorable gentleman did not stop there. Great as had been the fears he had exhibited with reference to the enormous burden we were placing on the shoulders of the people, he sought to make the Government directly responsible for the expenditure of all this money in the construction of the line from Lake Nipissing to the shores of the Pacific. But the honor- able gentleman, over and above, the expenditure we proposed, committed the country to a vast extension of the liability of the previous Government. The previous Government assumed that if they brought the Pacific Railway to Nipissing, it would be a sufficient inducement for the lines in Ontario and Quebec, running easterly to Quebec, and, southerly to Toronto, to make a cpnnecticm at that point. At the same time, my honorable predecessor submitted to Parliament a measure providing for the construction of the Georgian Bay Branch, and to give a subsidy to the Canada Central Railway of $1,440,000. Although the Georgian Bay Branch was through a terra incognita^ the line unsurveyed, and eminent engineers maintained it to be impracticable, without any survey or any location, the honorable gentle- man, pledged himself as the leader of the Government, and he committed the Government arid the country to the construction of the line, from the terminus of the Canada Central, east of Lake Nipissing, to the mouth of French River, at an expense moderately put at $2,560,000. That makes four million dollars of money which he proposed to expend outside of, and over and above, the liability for the Canadian Pacific Railway before reaching the eastern terminus, where it had been fixed by Par- liament, on the south and east of Lake Nipissing. He may say, "but this is all subject to the limitation that is provided for in this bill, with reference to not increasing the then rate of taxation." Unfortunately for him, and unfortunately for the honorable gentleman who sits behind hirn, and who now seems — I will not say ready to repudiate the policy of his own leader — but to take a prominent part in a proposal that, I fear, wiU be regarded in the light of a repudiation by them of their obligations, and which will have the effect of sweeping from under their feet any standing ground, — the honorable the then Minister of Finance submitted to Parliamen*^^ a declaration to the effect that in order to meet the expendi- ture he M'ould have to ask Parliament to impose an additional taxation of $3,006,000 ; and then and tliere the honorable gentleman did impose that additional taxation. When the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) made his famous speech in Ontario, at a subsequent date, he said that British Columbia had nothing to complain of, as Parliament ^ad not only pledged itself to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, but had provided $3,000,000, had levied $3,000,000 additional taxation to meet their obligations, and notably for the Canadian Pacific Railway. When the honorable gentleman imposed that additioi^al taxation, this bill was at the same time placed upon the Statute Book, saying that the under- taking should not involve an increase in the existing rate of taxation. The 10 I N honorable gentleman, therefore, stands in this position : either he must give up that clause as not having any binding obligation or effect, or stand before Parliameni; and the countr)- in the position of having violated the law in the expenditure of every dollar spent from the first hour that he began to expend any money on the Pacific Railway, because there is clear and unde- nia,ble evidence that the rate of taxation vy^as then increased. Every single dollar of the $11,000,000 spent in the construction of the railway, so far, had been spent by the honorable gentleman in the teeth of the Statute, and also the balance of the $28,000,000 of money required to complete the expenditure he had begun — for without that completion all the $n, 000,000 would be wasted — had been expended contrary to the declaration of that act. The honorable gentleman, when in opposition, had exhibited such a spirit of antagonism as honorable gentlemen opposite are, I am afraid, inclined to exhibit to the policy proposed on this side of the House. Mr. Blake — W^hich gentleman ? Sir Charles Tupper — When I have the pleasure to look in the face at this naoment of the hon. gentleman, and hold this friendly discussion on so very important a question, I am reminded that when he was before in Opposition, and when we then proposed a scheme for constructing the Pacific Railway, which we felt quite possible, and which we knew to be in the interest of the countrv to complete as quickly as possible, he and his •colleagues decried that proposal or the advisability of going on with the work ; but when brought into power upon this side of the House, they did not ;shrink back ; they found that the dismal vista that they had seen before had vanished; and the hon. gentleman went to the extent of adding $4,000,000 to the amount we propiosed for the construction of the Pacific Railway at the eastern end of the line. But what did he do on the other end of the line ? He went into a deliberate negotiation with British Colum- bia and the Imperial Government, and for fear that the hon. gentlemen may forget these Httle inconsistencies, I will ask the indulgence of the House while I refer to one of the most important State papers, one of the most important documents that forms a portion of the archives of Canada, I mean the treaty made between the Government of Canada and Britjsh Columbia, and the Imperial Government. Although I would like to condense the passage I aih going to read, I am afraid I shall have to read it at length. What I am going ^o read now will be found at page 5 1 1 of the Hansard of 1875. On that page will be found a verbatim statement of the treacy, showing the obligations imposed by the then First Minister now sitting on the other side of the House. Lord Carnarvon said : — " Adhering then to the same order in which, on the 16th August, I stated the principle points on which it appeared to me that a better understanding should be defined, I now proceed to announce the conclusions at which I have arrived. They are : — 1.. That the railway from Esquimault to Nanaimo shall be commenced as soon as possible, and completed with all practicable despctch. 2. That the surveys on the mainland shall be pushed on with the utmost vigor. On this point, after considering tne representations of your Ministers, 1 feel that I liave no alternative but to rely, as I do most fully and readily, upon their assuranoes that no legitimate ettbrt or expense will be spared, flrtit to determine the best route for the line, and secondly to proceed with the details of the engineering work. It •wot min hap doi ofh r he must give )r ^tand before ited the law in at he ,t)egan to lear and unde- Every single ailway, so far, e Statute, and complete the $11,000,000 iration of that libited such a I am afraid. House. t in the face discussion on v&s before in structing the new to be in I he and his on with the , they did not seen before »t of adding f the Pacific on the other ritish Colum- ntlemen may ' the House of the most lada, r mean h Columbia, )ndense the t at length. ffansard of the treacy, f sitting on I stated the >g should be ived. They iced as soon imost vigor, feel that I r assuraooes 9 best route r work. It 11 irould be distaatefnl to me, if indeed, it were not impossible to prescribe strictly any minimuia of time or expenditure with regard to work of so uncertain a nature ; but, happily, it is equally impossible for me ,to doubt that your Oovernmeot will loyally do its best io every way to accelerate the completion of A duty left freely to its sease •of honor atad justice. : Vlsi;5l •rrr*' Ofw ri'<{nf!.i 3. That the wagsron road and telegraph line shftll be immediatiely coh»'trticted. There seems here to be some difference of opinion as to the special value to the province of the undertaking to complete these two works *, but after considering what has been said, I am of opinion that they should both be proceeded with ,|it otice, as indeed is suggested by your Ministers. ^ 4. That $2,000,000 a year, and not $1,500,000, shall be the minimum expencii- tura on railway works within the Province from the date at ^hich the surveys are «ufBciently completed to enable that amount to be expended on construction. In naming this amount I understand, (ttid Esquimault Railway. Under those circumstances, the last source from which this Government might have anticipated obstruction was from gentlemen opposite in adopting the present policy. The late Government committed itself to the construction of this great work regardless of the cost^ At the end of five years the former Government came back to power. What did we find had been accomplished in the meantime ? Honorable gentlemen may be surprised to learn that one of our first duties was to lay the rails upon the Pembma Branch Railway, the contract for which was given out, among the first acts of the late Government. They also early undertook the construction of the railway from Fort William to Shebandowan, and to develop the policy known as the use of the water stretches. There was, besides, to be a road in the west, from the Lake of the Woods to Winnipeg. To the credit of the member for Lambton, he is sometimes open to argu- ment. After two or three years' discussion in this House we were enabled finally to convince him of the folly of his course — that every dollar he ex- pended on the road to Shebandowan on the east, and on the road beyond the Lake of the Woods in the west, would be wasted, while there was the Duluth Railway within a comparatively short distance to carry all the pass goi it wl that! ,J throtigh the in- pport, I (do not 3 ask those gen- he late Govem- build the Cana- to any expen- id add the cost • the land these !^hat honorable him' for their interest of the proposition- place on this f that assured ■d upon when nber for West the late Gov- )n to his dis- ident member of the Esqui- ot of the Gov- 5 undertaking, |arliament, the every word id more. He to this policy, the country, be completed his being in of the coffers, ig generously the Nanaimo t source from n was from Government !s of the cost, )wer. What >le gentlemen lay the rails 5 given out, ndertookthe >wan, and to . There was, o Winnipeg. >en to argu- ere enabled loUar he ex- oad beyond ire was the arry all the la passengers and traffic westward, and prevent eithet one or the other, ever > going by the mixed rail and water-stretches route, the amphibious line, after it was constructed. I vfill credit him with practically admitting, at least, i that he was wrong and we were right. -M'ff Mr. Mackenzie — No. Sir Charles TUPPER— I know he is unwilling to admit it, but history will establish the truth of my statements. I cannot absolve the honorable gentleman for the folly of having undertaken the construction of the through line by this route, and letting two contracts, one running to English* River on the east, and the other to Rat Portage on the west, without previous surveys, without the slightest knowledge of those sections or what the road would cost, or whether he could connect the two ends at all. It can be ; proved those ends had never been connected by surveys, and that there was j no means of knowing whether, at any reasonable cost, the road could be completed. The result has been an enormous expenditure, largely due to the precipitate commencement of the work, and without sufficient informa- tion as to the character of the country. On attaining office we found a large amount had been expended on those two sections of 227 miles; one running east from Red River 114 miles, and the other 113 miles, running west from Lake Superior. We found that the money thus expended might as well be thrown into lake Superior, and was utterly useless for any purpose of value, there being; a gap of 185 miles between those sections The honorable gentleman had ' become convinced of the uselessness of this expenditure, without the com- ' pletion of the intervening section ; and shortly previous to the general elec- tions he advertised for contracts for the road over those 185 miles. 1 am not going to find any fault with that step. I gave him credit for it before,^ but must withdraw it now, as he stated the other night that he had ndt ait' all decided to construct those 185 miles — had not decided whether he would ' allow the enotmous expenditure to lie dead while he paid interest on it, without accomplishing anything by it. I can readily understand why the hon- orable gentleman did not let the contracts before the election. He had stated i • - ..J out of the House, as a ground of his claim to public confidence, that he was building the Canadian Pacific Railway at a cost of $24,500 a mile, ^ and he h{ more com- tlemen who fee. who inter- interests of ial Minister, ho was Mr. ioul into the I. He dis- s successors the Liberal in England, not unlikely tieman, the ig ago to get 1 sure that it n theae mat- ieaconsfield of Canada rise. We ive owe a ipreciation iway now :ention to ipening up mts of the ;t with the om by the ision, but um on the gieat national resources of British North America, and he declared to the people of England the vital importance it was to the empire tliat her sons who were obliged to expatriate themselves for the jnirpose pf bettering their condition could seek a home in the fertile lands of British North America, under the same flag beneath which they had formeriy lived, I must now turn the attention of the House for a few moments to the authority that was given to the Government at the last session of Parlia- ment in relation to this great work, and the duty that was imposed on us. I think I will convince the House (and the honorable member for West Durham — I do not even despair of convincing him) that during the re- cess of Parliament the Ciovernment were engaged in discharging the duty confided in them by Parliament, and which they directed them to carry out. The first resolution reads as follows : — " 1. Resolved, That engapcmcnts have been entered into with Britlnh Colum- bia, as a condition of nnion "with Canada, that a line c{ railway to connect the Atlantic with the Pacific shall be constructed witli all practicable speed." " 6. Resolved, That in view of tlie impo. iuce of keeping good faith with British Columbia, and completing the congolidation cf the Confederation of Provinces in British North Annrica, and for the purpose of extending relief to the unemployed w iking c'.'ihHes of Qreat Britain, and affording them permanent homes on British soil ; nr. i in view of the national character of the undertaking, the Government of ■Canr/ fi is authorized and directed to use its host efforts to secure the co-operation of the Imperial Oovernment in this great undertaking, and obtain further aid by guar- antee or otherwise, in the construction of this great national work." This resolution refers to the importance of securing the co-operation of the Imperial Government by guarantee or otherwise, and all I can say is that the Government did the best they could in that direction, and I think I have given the House some evidence that the seed sown is likely to bear fruit in due time. The seventh resolution reads : — '< .7. That it is further expedient to provide : — That 1 00,000,000 acres of land and all the minerals they contain be appropriated for the purposes of constructing the Canadian Pacific Railwav." This was appropriated, and I need say nothing further in relation to the matter, after the exhaustive argument of the member for North Nor- folk, who attacked the policy of th§ Government as to the mode in which they propose to appropriate and utilize that hundred millions of acres of land ; and the able and exhaustive reply he received from the honorable the first Minister, who, I believe, convinced this House, as he must have convinced this country, that we have every reason to believe that that policy will be eminently successful. I need not discuss the question further, but say, that ^fore Parliament rises it will be necessary to submit a resolution confirmii ; the mode in which it is decided by the Govern- ment to administer tl ,se lands a little more concisely than these resolutions provide. It is not proposed, however, to depart from the policy we believe has been wisely adopted, and which will be found sufficient to thoroughly accomplish this work. The loth resolution reads: — "10, Resolved, That the Government be authorised and directed to locate a portion of the CaUr.Jian Pacific Railway, from the Bed Kiver, westerly, running to the south of Lake Manitoba, with a branch to Winnipeg. And, if they deem it ad- visable, to eater into contract for expending a sum not exceeding $1,000,000 in con- T 22 gtructing the said railway without previously submitting the contracts to Parlia- ment." That power has been used, and before I sit down I shall have occasion to explain to the House the position in which that matter stands. The nth, 1 2th, 13th and i4txi read : — "11. Besolved, That it is expedient to make further explorations in the Peaco and Pine River Districts and other secHcns of the country not yet examined, in order to ascertaii) tlio feasibility of a line through the largest extent of fertile territory before beginning the work of construction in British Columbia. , "12. Resolved, That in the opinion of this House, the selection of the Burrard inlet terminus was premature. " 13. Resolved, That it is necessary to keep good faith with British Columbia, and commence the construction of the railway in that province as early as Is prac- ticable. '< 14. Resolved, That the Government be authorise. -l and directed to make such further explorations as they may deem necessary for the said purpose, and so soon as they have finally selected and located the line, to enter into contracts for construc- ting a portion of the same, aot exceeding 126 miles, without the further sanction of Parliament, so that tbo work of construction may, at latest, be commenced during the present season, and thereafter be vigorously prosecuted." I may say to tlie House that we fully appreciate the enormous expen- diture involved in the construction of the line of railway to the Pacific coast by the Burrard Inlet route. All we asked w:.s authority to make explorations with the view of seeing if we could not connect the Pacific shores with the fertile district of the North-west bypassing through a more hospitable country. Mr. Blake — Not inhospitable. Sir Charles Tupper — I will recall that, as I have a vivid recollection of what the honorable member has been made to suffer by having used that word before. The Government, acting in good faith, and believing that if they could facilitate the progress of the work in British Columbia, an4 find a; shorter and easier line of communication with the fertile valleys of the North-west, it would largely assist in solving the great difficulty that lays in the way of constructing the Canadian Pacific Railway, directed itself as vigorously to that question as possible. They obtained the services of an active and energetic navigator to report on Port Simpson. After receiving his report, I have no hesitation in sayiiig that, in my opinion, no ~uch port is to be found on the Pacific coast as Port Simpson. It is easy of access, and well sheltered within, and all that can be desired, in every respect. But we fo"nd, on having the three routes examined, from Port Simpson to Peace River, Pine River and Fort George, that the route Burrard Inlet was 150 miles shorter than that to Port Simpson, and we found that the country through British Columbia, via the Peace River or Pine River, was not more favorable for settlement than the Burrard Inlet route, but that, in addition to its being 500 miles north of Victoria, we had to encounter a very unfavor- able climate. The rain-fall was very incessant on the coast, and there was no extent of country fit for settlement between the coast and five or six hundred miles, where we would strike the Peace River Pass. Mr. Fler ing pointed out in his report the great advantages it possessed, as a line easier of construction. After full deliberation, we come to the conclusion that wq would not be acting in the interests of the country if we rejected the Bui~ « to ?arlia- e occasion nds. The u the Peaco »ed, in order e territory tiie Burrard I Columbia, as is prac- make such 80 soon as r construc- sanction of iced duriog- >us expen- le Pacific ^ to make le Pacific fh a more •Uection of used that ing that if , an(} find ys of the at lays in 1 itself as. ces of an receiving vach port •f access, respect, npson to [nlet was : country lot more dition to unfavor- lere was ^e or six Fler ing e easier that we he Bui- 23 rard Inlet route which had been adopted by the late Grovemment. The fact that the hon. gentleman, after careful consideration, had adopted that route, was greatly in its favor, and we had no hesitation in adopting it The Burrard Inlet route has this advantage : It has a good harbor, and only thirty miles across the Narrows are the valuable coal miles of Nanaimo. Within thirty miles you have great coal deposits, and in close proximity abundant quantities of iron ore, sufficient, I hope, to induce enterprising capitali^ to undertake the manufacture of the iron rails required in British Columbia. You have a most valuable fishery on those coasts, and, as is well known, you have splendid forests of timber. You have, from Burrard Inlet up toward Yale, from fifty to loo miles of land valuable for settlement. The width is large enough to provide homes for a large and thriving population. I fully acknowledged last year that Kamloops district was a superior one. Yale is at the head of the tide water, and you can reach it easily from the shores of the Pacific. Steamers go daily from Victoria to Yale, and by the construc- tion of 125 miles of rail you can reach the Kamloops district, which gives us communication with the great central plateau of the Rocky Moimtains, through which 150 miles of the line will run, extending 140 miles south to the United States, and 200 miles running northward, with a fine climate and luxurious vegetation. The section of -country is the most important and the most suitable for settlers to be found in the whole of the Province of British Columbia. I am sorry to detain honorable gentlemen opposite while I read a few words from the " Guide to British Columbia," in which this countiy is described — Mr. Mackenzie — Who wrote the description ? Sir Chari.es Tupprr— I am not able to say who it was written by, because I do not find the name z-f the author given, but I am happy to tell honorable gtwitlemen opposite, if they are at all sceptical as to the value of the authority', they will find a similar description in the able report of Mr. Dawson of the geological survey of 1877, which affords abundant confirma- tion of what 1 shall here read. Speaking of the New Westminster district, we f iid the followmg :-— " The Fraier river does not come from the Cascade range, bnt from the Bocky range. It is tb(« only river in British Columbia (except in the fax northwest of the Prorfnce) ^hich has strength to cross the drj country between the Rocky and Cas- cade ranges and get through the latter range to the sea. It is fed in its coarse 1^ streams running from every point of the compass — a noble river, but navigable only for considerable sfjeiches, owing to rapids. Yale is the head ot steamboat naviga- tion from the aea. After borsting through the mountain passes at Yale and Hope, the Fraser is a tran«]^uil, steady, clay-colored stream for the latter part of its course." " This country on the lower portion of the Fraser is what I may call the New Westminieter district. It is in general a wooded district, but has large tracts of open, arable and graiing land, delicious atmosphere — no malaria or ague — water-carriage, facilities for shipment. Bnow begins in January and is gone by March ; not con- tijnuouB ; plenty of fish and game in the district ; will raise anjrthing Vancouver Island will raise and more ; three large saw mills, employing 600 people ; a grist mill : distillery ; farmen' society, &c. About 200 settlers located themselves in this district during 1874." " The Mainland Guardian (New Westminister Journal), said, on March, 1872, — A minimum yield of from 30 to 40 bushels of wheat to the acre, is the ordinary, average yield in Uie districts of Kamloops, Okanagan, Nicola, Sumass, Chilliwhack, and the Lower Fraser. Betveen tbe town of New Wesbninister and the mouth of II! '. ! 'r 24 the river, a yield very much exceeding this is often obtained, not because of better and more suitable soil, bat solely due to more careful cultivation ; 50 bushels of oats, and an equal yield of barley, per acre are commonly reached. Indian corn yields per acre 60 or 70 bunhels. The yield of roots and green crops is generally encouraging, being unsurpassed by any in the world." '< < On one farm the yield of potatoes was seven tons, on another as high as 15 tons per acre. Not a few specimens reached the enormous weight of 2} and even 3 lbs. Turnips give 25 tons to the acr^. Onions i^om four to six tons ; while carrots, cabbages, beets, cauliflowers, ko., grow to a size which may without exaggeration be described as enormous. (• < Of fruits it may be enough to state, that the ordinary kinds (apples, pears, plumbs, cherries, currants, gooseberries, strawberries, &c.) found in the eastern part of the Dominion and in England, grow luxuriantly and yield plentifully.' " NKW WB8TMIN8TBR DISTBIOT. — SPKOIAL DBSCRIPTIOiT. "I will describe the New Westminister district, beginning at the mouth of the River Fraset: — '« We find there extensive, low, rich, ' tide-lands or flats,' free ftom timber, with patches of willows, rosebushes, and, about the border of higher ground, crab appleS. A course grass called < swamp hay,' is plentiful. There are a good many salt-water sloughs, which add to the difficulty of dyking. " Farm after farm is being occupied in this section, and there is room for set- tlers. There are 29,000 acres of very good land in an island between the north and south-arm of the Eraser. " ' Oh the north arm, a small settlement of abov'- twenty farmers : 500 acres cultivated ; samplcis of white and red wheat describ . as 5} feet high, yielding 50 bushels io the acre ; average of course, less. Two potatoes (" Breeley Prolific ") 2 ielded 67 lbs, 1 imoti y bny, barley, oats, peas, &c., good.* " A district exactly like the mouth of Fraser district, indeed, part of it, within the United States territory, near the mouth of the Lummi, and back from Semiahmoo, is filling up with population rapidly. " Ascending the Fraser, we in no long time come to forests on each side ; giant pine ; cedars, alders, maple cottonwood ; real agricultural value of land cannot be seen. Luxuriant vegetation in the forest— berry-bushes of all kmds, also ferns, ground-creepers, moss — ^the sweet-scented white flowers of the wild apple-tree shine among the green foliage' of summer. Scenery and products altogether on a grand scale. But let the settler take heart : he is beside the sea here, ro railway carriage to the seaboard; there is much good? land requiring little clearing, plenty well wprth the clearing. There »re in parts extensive flats covered with wild hay, also fine prairies with fertile soil ; excellent crops and dairy yield ; thriving farms near the town of New, Westminister, and settlements also at Pitt Kiver, Keatsey, Langley, Matsqui, &c. For instance, at Pitt River 20,000 acves of good arable land requiring po clearing-:— tiic part of it sulyect to frcuheto is gocd now for grazing. « At Langley, a newspaper correspondent (i>aily Standard, Victoria, November, 1872) describes farms with ' several hundred acres of alluvial soil, black mould with clay bottom ; at your feet several square miles of green meadow land, the gleam- ing river beyOnd, and across it the dark Cascade range ; a stream, full of trout, meandering through the meadot^,' Another farm of " WO acres, every part cultivated, drained, and laid off into large parks of 30 to 40 acres each ; the steading in the form of a square ; a fine mansion house.' Another of ' 800 acres, 200 cultivated, fine black soil, all fit for the plough, drained by a stream which skirts it.' Again, '600 icre grass dairy farm ; cows, Durham breed ; farmer cures butter.' The next, ' 300 acres, the stock and crop owned by the blacksmith. Good public school ; neat Presbyterian cbiruch.' The writer ascribes an extraordinary production to these farms." " Higher up th6 river still, where the rivers Sumass and Chilli whack join the Fraser, are ricing settlements^Sumass Prairie 25,000 acres. Prime beef, choice butter and cheese, fine cereals, wide-spreading fertile prairies and valleys here, thinly c pRe of better bushelg of Indian oora is generally 8 high as 15 and even 3 hile carrots, grgeration be pples, pears, eastern part louth of the imber, with crab apple*, salt-water >om for set- i north and 500 acres yielding 50 Prolific ") f it, within lemiahmoo, Jide ; giant cannot be also ferns, >-tree shine on a grand »y carriage lenty well d hay, also farms near ', Langley, requiring November, ould with le glcam> of trout, ultivated, g in the iitcd, fine ;ain, '600 ext, <300 »oJ ; neat to these join the f, choice thinly peopled yet ; 60 to 80 farms ; good dwellings, bams, stables, churches, schools, shops, grist mill ; 600 acres wheat raised last year, 40 to 50 bushes an acre ; 200 acres oats ; also potatoes, peas, beans, hop", fruit and even tobacco ; supply beef to Yale and Hope (Yale gets some beef also from Nicola) ; extent of prairies great; much good land also on the Chilliwhack above the valley that would do well when cleared. OKANAGAN COCSTRT, Very fine stock country, and will also produce grain ; yield fall wheat only without irrigation; also profusely oats, barley, Indian corn, potatoes, tomatoes, musk-melons, wator-melons, grape-vines, tobacco. Summer warm, has shown 98" in the shade, cold is sharp in winter, but weather clear and sunny, snow seldom deep, and never lies long, cattle, horses and sheep as a rule, unhouserl in winter; moderate preparation, however, recommended. " The lake, 70 miles long by 1^ miles wide ; country to the east of it a fair sample of x,he beists dir-tricts between Bocky and Cascade ranges ; open, grassy hills, dotted with trees like English parks, suicessivu hills and dales ; lakes, ponds, and streams full of fish; soil much the 8flm6' general character ns the Similkameen ; rich sandy loam, substratum of clay in some valleys, stretches of < bottom ' land, some alkali patches ; some settlers coming in fast and taking up land since Canadian Pacific Railway began. Those who would have ' sold out ' a yoar ago are now tilling and improving their land. It is said that in Okanagan and adjoining districts, there is room for a farming population of 10,000 souls (allowing 160 acres for nine per- sons.) Roman Catholic mission post 1,100 fett above sea level) on the east side or the lake ; fine country behind it. On the west side of the lake, a little distance back runs a low mountain range from which detatcfaed spurs press upon the lake, and rise above the waters in precipitt^us bluffs ; excellent pasture, particularly on small spits jutting into the lake. The Cherry Creek silver mine has been abandoned for the present. <« Near the north end of the lake is an Indian reserve of very choice land. KAMLOOP8-8HCSWAP DISTBIOT. " Let us enter the district from the east. Columbia River is 44 miles from Shuswap Lake, via Eagle Pass. Three Valley Lake (altitude 1,912 feet) is about 34 miles from Shuswap Lake. Directly south frOm Three Valley Lake is a long, wide, grassy valhy, which leads across a low 'divide' to the head-waters of the Shuswap or Spillemeechene River. This is a gentle river flowing through a large valley, much of which has clay sub-soil ; fine fall wheat without irrigation; very good and heavy crops here ; large farm buildings ; well fenced fields ; Indians at work on farms ; fine bunch grass on th6 high land, round which the river makes a southern bend. '>« « A farmer on the Shuswap Prairie thrashed out 80 tons of wheat in 18T9 ; Wif other farmers 40 tons each. Prices here of very superior extra flour, $12 (48s. Eng- lish) per barrel of 196 lbs ; choice bacon, 25 cents (Is. OJd. English) per lb. ; juicy beef, 10 cents (5d. English) per lb. " Leaving the Shuswap or Spillemeechene River at a point, say beyond where Cherry Creek joins it, there is between that point and the head of tht Oknnegaa Lake a district of open prairie and sparaely timbered landj^ounding in rich pastur- age and dotted with a few farming settlements. '^s*^ " From tlie head of Okanagan Lake to the Thompson River (South branch) is about 45 miles northwest. Leaving the open, rolling, bunch-grass valleys of Okana- gan, you first ascend for about 20 miles through timber land ; reach Grand Prairie — fine soil, luxi-.riant bunch grass, dotted with cattle ; the prairie 16 miles by two miles, bounded by hills, a river between ; elevation (\.450 feet) causes some danger from night frost. Grand Prairie to Thompson River — glittering stream through valley, bordered by alders and willows, green meadows, clumps of trees, small lakes ; goo 1 soil ready for cultivation. "There is an open, or lightly timbered bunch-grass country along the banks of t^e North Thompson River, and north of Kamloops Iiakc for 130 miles. mm I'l ■ < r:t '; ii ':l ' I.. I i 'Ma 26 " Several English gentlemen, from the American oide, have taken a prairie of 2000 acres on the North Thompson, a short distance from Eamloops, and are making a long ditch for irrigation. (' In 1871, the yield of grain on the Tranquil and north and south branches ot the Thompson River was a million and a quarter pounds. " The whole Kamloops-Shuswap district is a district of table land, with consid- erable depressions— abundant pasture, generally iree from forests, and only inter- spersed with timber ; summer climate dry, great heat ; winter frequently very cold for a day or two, but on the whole not very sharp ; bnow generally lies a short time only ; cattle are driven here to winter, in severe seasons ; Hudson's Bay Company used to < winter out ' 500 horses here, including brood mares and young horses. This district will doubtless become Imown again as a mineral district. The first gold fonnd in quantity by th& natives was found in this district, and fair wages are still made on the Thompson River. The'Thompson, near its mouth, is tooiull, rapid, and rocky for mining." NICOLA COUKTBY. " Directly south from Kami oops, 30 miles, is Nicola Lake. The road at present fromEamloops is a sort of natural trail over gently undulating but high open country, with fine grass. First few miles no herbage ; many ravines. At the first height, turn and survey the magnificent scenery of the Thompson River valleys ; will give some idea of the grazing resources of the Province. Can bring a waggon with light load across from Kamloops to Nicola Lake, if you take a guide, an axe, and a spade." LILLOIT-CLINTOM DISTRICT. << This district includes Cache Creek, Bonaparte, also Williams Lake, and up to .Quesnel Mouth. « The whole district is a very fine one, and at present shows what can be done by applying capital to the soil. It is farther to the north, and generally more ele- vated than some sections already described, the risks of crops from summer night frosts may be said to be very considerable in the entire country on the waggon-road north of Pavilioo Mountain, unless farms have a south aspect or are protected from north blasts. The remark applies more particularly to farms farther north than Alex- andria. <' Tne surfitce in so large a section of country is, of course, varied. It embraces within its area fertile river-benches (terraces), table lands, large open valleys, im^ mense plains and great rolling bills. <• The country near the Thompson, Bonaparte and Hat Rivers is very attractive to the eye ; miles of green hills, crowning slopes, and level meadows ; hardly a bush or a tree ; fine grass almost to the hill-tops. The climate very healthful and enjoy- able ; rather a want of timber in parts, also of rain generally, but there are many streams. <' For grazing, the country cannot be surpassed, and its agricultural capabilities, BO frir as the soil is concerned, are in many parts very good. At Cache Creek and on the Bonaparte there is excellent arable land. The country through whioh the wag- gon-road passes to Williams Lake has some very good soil, with no more timber than, is needed for fiurming purposes. The farming land is bounded by low hills, beyondt which there are prairies ^di valleys. These bills are undulating and brightly green,, and their grassy carpet is (laisind over with countless wild flowers." I have no doubt, when my honorable friend the Minister of Public Works has completed his improvements, we shall get loo to 150 miles of navigation, up into the mineral regions, that will become available. Mr. Blake — Will it yield as much as Vancouver Island? Sir Charles Tupper — He does not say anything about that. Mr. Mackenzie — It ought to do that, I should ^ink. Sir Charles Tupper — I do not think that honorable gentlemen should abuse Vancouver Island after agreeing to expend four millions upon it. 1 ! a prairie of td are making h branches of with consid- only inter- itlj very cold a short time Jay Company lorses. This 'he first gold igea are still ill, rapid, and Eid at present >pen country, first height, ya-, will give m with light aid a spade." e, and up to can be done ly more eie- mmer night waggon-road [>tected from b than Alex- It embraces valleys, im-^ T attractive rdly a bush I and enjoy- i are many capabilities, eek and on :h the wag- imber than lis, beyond) htly green,. of Public miles of in should upon it. 87 I may say that the horses owned by the Government, are, in the Kam- loops district, unhoused during the winter, and have been found to be in good condition in the spring. No part of British Columbia is better suited for settlement and cultivation than that of the Kamloops district. Mr. Mackenzie — That is the best part of the country. Sir Charles Tupper — There is no doubt of it ; and that is one of the reasons for adopting it as the railway route. Honorable gentlemen opposite exercised a wise and sound discretion in committing the country to the con- struction of the 125 miles now put imder contract, and w^hich will bring us in communication with the navigation of the north and south Thompson, and render access to the rich mines of Cariboo comparatively easy. The gold and coal mines will be made accessible by easy and rapid communi- cation, and promote, as the honorable gentleman said to his constituents at Samia, the opening up of the inaccessible parts where there are inexhausti- ble riches in the bosom of the earth. Well, sir, we resolved not to waste time in surveys, but to make a rapid exploration of the route to Port Simpson, and undertake at once the construction in accordance with our pledge to Parliament. Upon determining that the line to Burrard Inlet was the best we should have been false to ourselves and obliged to sacrifice the best interests of the country if wc did not act promptly and carry it out. In putting this section under contract I am glad to be able to say that the contracts will not be found to be fraught with the danger that honorable gentlemen might suppose, unless they take the trouble to read them. They have been let in maximum quantities : after putting in every- thing that could possibly be required, $1,000,000 extra is added for any- possible contingencies. The contracts themselves am<^unt to $9,167,000 ; $1,000,000 of that is for contingencies. The contracts are let by the yard, but the Government have ascertained by proper evidence the very outside quantities possible required for the construction of a first class road ; and the Government have reserved power to cut down the work to any extent that may be found practicable, and at the same time to construct road of the cheapest description from Kamloops to Yale. By carefully laying out the work, by carefully watching its progress, by carefully reducing the work ; by increasing the curvature and increasing die grades if necessary and advisable, we may finish and equip the road below the actual amount, as stated in the contract ; and we have also reserved the power to stop the work at any moment. Mr. Blake — Could you do it now ? Sir Charles Tupper — I still hope to prove to the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) that it would not be in the interest of the country to bring this work to a stand, to tarnish the fair fame of Canada by declaring that we were ready to repudiate solemn engagements, simply because they were entered into by our predecessors. We do not bind our- selves to build the road by 1890, as they did ; we limited our obligation to build that road by the greater obligations that we owe to Canada, not to do anything that will materially interfere with the interests of the Dominion. We will not hold ourselves bound — although the honorable gentleman has pledged us to do it — to spend $2,000,000 per annum. We do not expect to spend $1,000,000 this year; and if we stop the contractor at any time, if, ' 'I, 28 through any disturbance of the Hon. the Minister of Finance's calculations or otherwise j it may be found expedient to do so, we can stop the work without paying one dollar for loss, or for the profits the contractors might otherwise have made. If that stoppage is ordered for six months, we must make compensation by extending six months to the time allowed for the completion of the contract. I expect, with the utmost confidence, that that road will be finished and equipped with a moderate amount of rolling stock in as cheap a manner as is compatible with safety in going over it, and that the whole of the cost will come within the $9,000,000. I will now refer to the objections to the Burrard Inlet route made a year ago, first that it was too near the American frontier. Mr. Mackenzie — Have you not shifted the frontier ? Sir Charles Tupper — We cannot prevent our line being exposed to having its trafliic carried to a terminus in the United States ; but there was a more important matter — that the Burrard Inlet could be commanded by guns on San Juan Island, and we considered how that difficulty could be met. Mr. Blake — It might be done by getting a big gun ourselves. ' 'i'" Sir Charles Tupper — The honorable gentleman says by getting a big gUn ourselves ; but we have another mode of meeting the difficulty, namely, by the construction, when required, of eight miles of railroad, from the har- bor of Esquimault to Sanwich Inlet, which tvill enable us to ^t to Burrard Inlet, and thus avoid one of the principal objections that I raised last year. The honorable gentleman will not have the opportunity, I think, to throw the taunt across the House that I carried out a policy to which I was op- pcsed. I had the candour to say, last year, in the light of sU tiiat was then known, that I would select Burrard It Jet, and all we asked the House to say was that the location of that line was premature. The subsequent explora- tion and examination confirtlaed us in the course we adopted, and having made t'his examitiation I think we disposed of the word " premature." Having propounded the policy of the construction of this road by the ap- propriation of 100,000,000 acres of lands, the Government felt it was neces- sary to put before the world the most authentic information we could get in relation to that land, and, notwithstanding that a large amount of money has been expended on surveys, I think that it is not so large as we have been led to suppose. Some $900,000, charged for surveys, should have gone towards construction, because it was really in relation to the location and construction of the road. But, as the honoiable First Minister of that day told the House, this was no ordinary survey. We were exploring a country running from Nipissing to St. James' Bay, running from Vancouver Island to Fort Simpson, and running from the fifty-first to the fifty-sixth parallel of latitude across the continent. The report I kid upon the table of the House last year was accompanied by a map giving the best informa- tion in possession of the Government in relation to the lands in the North West. In this map the portions of the country about which we had no definite information as to its value for settlement were. indicated ; and I am happy to be able to say that from the explorations of the past season we are now able to say that from the foot of the Rocky Mountains to the western calculations )p the work ctors might »s, we must ved for the ^e, that that oiling stock it, and that ow refer to that it was exposed to there was landed by could be ;s. tting a big y, namely, n the har- o Burrard last year. , to throw f was op- was then Lise to say explora- d having ^mature." y the ap- as neces- ild get in 'f money we have lid have location of that loring a ncouver fty-sixth he table nforma- 2 North had no id I am we are tvestem boundary of Manitoba we can find 150,000,000 acres of good land, and only 30,0500,000 acres of land unfit for settlement. Mr. Mackenzie — That is not the railway belt. Sir Charles Tupper— Yes, it is. The honorable gentleman can see that for himself from the map. Mr. Charlton — Does it cover the Peace River district? Sir Charles Tupper — It does to some extent. I am happy to be able to state that the surveys will be completed on the first day of July this year, and that every dollar in the estimates for the coming season will be expended in the construction of the road. Although in connection with the diversion of the line south of Lake Manitoba, to run through a country valuable for settlement — the best country for the railro^'^ to pass through and to promote colonization as rapidly as possible — tV . length of the line was increased some twenty miles, nearly four miles were saved between Thunder Bay and the Red River. We have found a good line between Winnipeg and the Rocky Mountains, escaping the enormous gullies to the south of Edmonton Pass, which shortens the road by ten miles or more. !: Mr. Mackenzie— This is not measured yet. Sir Charles TuppeR; — No ; we are obliged to deal with approximate measurements in order to discuss this question at all. I am also happy to be able to say that, so far from the second 100 miles being open to the criti- cisms of the honorable gentleman, we have not only got a good line, but we have just received tenders for the construction of probably as heavy a sec- tion of line as there is between Red River and the foot of the Rocky Moun- tains, under $500,090 for loo miles. The grades will not exceed those of the Grand Trunk or Great Western Railways. If there is any part of the line which it is important should have the best possible grade, it is that between the country from the Red River to Lake Superior. No person who heard the elaborate statement of the honorable the Minister of the In- terior the other ni^ht, can doubt but that the population will increase m the country as rapidly as he depicted. Mr. Blake — Hear, hear. Sir Charles Tupper — I will refer the honorable gentleman to the Grit Bible for evidence of the accuracy of those statements. I liave here an extract from the G/odi newspaper : — " It would not indicate extravagant hope to say that 1,000,000 pe039 ) Pembina Branch, exclusive of rails, $511,214; on rails, bolts and spikes, for the work altogether, up to the 31st December, $2,968,062. Mr. Mackenzie — What has been done with the old rails ? Sir GstARLES TuppER — Those are the old rails. I am not including any considerable amount of the rails purchased since, because the payments up to 31st December have not been made to any large extent. On the Canada Central there was spent $563,715. I am glad to be able to say, in connection with the contrjict for the section west of Red River, that the contractor entertains no doubt of opening fifty miles by July, and of laying the track and being able to carry passengers over the one hundred miles by the end of the season. We also expect to be able to complete the first fifty miles of the second one hundred, west of Manitoba, by the July following, and the remainder during the year i88i* For engineering and miscella- neous expenditures in connection with construction, $993,000 ; payments not undef contract, including such as for land at the Kaministiqua, and dredging at Thunder Bay, &c., $247,300. The total for construction, $10,729,257, to the 31st December last. Explorations, preliminary surveys, and general examination of the whole country from Nipissing to James' Bay in the east, and in British Columbia on the west from Victoria m 81 of hostility nancial diffi- f everything ;d a wiser or in has been reading that that at last, editor feels of this im- i of Canada. y a political »d connected at ieast half B the Rocky r of produce fin twenty- ibled in ten lly, and— as ill be very ompleted it can be built uperior sec. « 620 miles i to a large oard. It is •cky Moun- lercial road, T valuable it we had the lines elegraphs, bolts and •62. including payments On the ;o say, in that the >f laying miles by first fifty )llowing, niscella- ayments ua, and ruction, iminary ssing to V^ictoria to Port Simpson, extending throughout from the 49th parallel to the 56th ; parallel, $3, 1 1 9,6 1 8. Total expenditure upon the Canadian Pacific Railway, mcludingthe Pembina Branch, $13,848,876. There is another item of Pacific Railway accounts of $22,995, being a payment on the Dawson route in :settlement with one of the contractors, and on the Fort Francis locks, which •cost $287,795, which, being one hundred miles away from the line, I do not think ought to be charged to the Canadian Pacific Railway account. But ^including this it reaches the total to the end of the year of $14,159,665. It being six o'clock the Speaker left the chair. AFTER RECESS. Before six o'clock I was about taking up the question of the expendi- ture that will be required to complete the Canadian Pacific Railway. I will now submit a calculation I believe to be an outside one, or above the probable outlay. This estimate has been prepared by a gentleman who has had the widest and best opportunity of forming a deliberate and dispassion- ate judgment on the silbject— a gentleman whose ability, in my opmion, is only exceeded by his caution— Mr. Sandford Fleming, Engineer-in-Chief of •the Canada Pacific Railway. However much this estimate of expenditure may be reduced, I am sure it cannot be exceeded. The distance from Lake Superior to Burrard Inlet is 1,956 miles ; that is adding twenty miles for the cQversion of the line to the south of Lake Manitoba, and deducting three and three-quartero miles for the reduction in the distance between Lake Superior and Red River, and the shortening by the change of route passing north of Edmonton instead of south as before. That total includes the Fort William and Selkirk section of 406 miles as now reduced ; and for that I submit an estimate for completion in the manner intended as a first- class road, and with a thorough equipment for the large traffic expected, and including terminal stations, $17,000,000, or $1,000,000 less for the reasons stated than my estimate of last year. The 1,000 miles from Selkirk to Jasper Valley, the dividing point just beyond the foot of the Rocky Mountains, including a light equipment— all that will be required for some years — Mr. ^Fleming estimates at $13,000,000, that is $3^000,000 more than the average estimate for the 200 miles west of Red River, in order to be entirely safe. We have 100 miles actually under contr-^-ct, and have received tenders for the other 100 miles, and I do not expect the average cost to exceed that of the 100 miles just let. Mr. Blake— What is the amount estimated for the equipment, per mile? Sir Charles Tupper — A light equipment is all we shall require for some years. Mr. Blake — Will it be $1,000 or $2,000 pei mile? Sir Charles Tupper — When the traffic demands a heavier equipment ithere will be the means of providing it. Mr. Blake — I only want to know your estimate in dollars. Sir Charles Tupper— It is $13,000 per mile, as against an estimate we should be justified in giving of $10,000 a mile, making $3,000,000 more than the average of the amount probably needed to complete and supply with a. fair equipment the 200 miles we have under contract on the prairies. 32 M' P If ffl; From Jasper Valley to Port Moody the distance is 550 miles. From Jasper to Kamloops, in British Columbia, to which the portion now under contract ei^tends, is 335 miles, which can be constructed. I believe, for $40,000 a mile. But Mr. Fleming, more cautious, has given an outside estimate of $43,660 a mile. This is much heavier than the prairie district, but is light compared to the section we have let in the canyons of the Frasar. That will give $15,500,000 for the section from Jasper House to Kamloops^ From Kamloops to Vale is 125 miles, which Mr. Fleming estimates at $80,- 000 a mile, or $10,000,000 to complete the road, with a fair equipment for any traffic likely to be required. In my opinion we may set down, instead of $10,000,000, $9,000,000 for that work. From Yale to Port Moody, 90 miles, he estimates at about $38,888 a mile, or $3,500,000. Those 550 miles foot up $29,000,000, to which, with his isual caution, Mr. Fleming adds $1,000,000 ; this makes, with the $17,000,000 for the road from Fort William to Red River, and $13,000,000 from Red River to Jasper Valley, $30,000,000 from that point to Burrard Inlet, a total of $5o,ooo,ooo. To' that, add for surveys and explorations, not included in the cost of engineer- ing and locations, and other operations, $3,119,618. The House will be very much surprised to learn the lavish expenditure of the late Government in British Columbia, if at the time the then Premier did not intend to carry the work to completion. From June, 187 1, to June, 1872, surveys in British Columbia cost $182,216; from 1872 to 1873, $315,000 — the late Govern- ment, of course, not being responsible for that. From 1873 to 1874, $1 1^,- 000; from 1874 to 187s, $191,241; from 1875 ^o 1876, $330,162 ; from 1876 to 1877, no less than $273,788, or $5oo,ooo for those two years; from 1877 to 1878, $126,476; from 1878 to 1879, $50,112, and from July^ 1879, to December, $2^,000 more, making a total of $1,611,997, for sur- veys in British Columbia. To that, add the expenditure between Lakes Nipissihg and Superior, and between Lake Superior and Red River and the Rocky Mountains, in all $1,507,621, making a total of $3,119,618, to be added to the $jo,ooo,ooo, embracing all the other expenditures in con- nection with the Canadian Pacific Railway, except the Pembina Branch. The Pembina Branch is estimated to cost, when finished and equipped^ $1,750,000, making in all, including the construction from Lake Superior to Burrard Inlet, and all the surveys, a sum of $64,869,618. That com- pletes the Canadian Pacific Railway, with the ex eption of 600 miles from Fort William to Nipissing, the terminal point. Mr. Mackenzie — It is more than 600 miles. V "^ Sir Charles Tupper — After the Canada Central Company extend their line to the Sault on the line I expect they will follow, it will be con- siderably less than 600 miles, because we will strike the Canada Central some 60 or 70 miles west of the southeast bay of Lake Nipissing. There- fore, my estimate is more likely to be over the mark than under it. I am inclined to think, from the surveys that have been prosecuted during the past year, from Nipigon to Fort William, a good and easy line can be obtained, so much so as to make it doubtful whether it may not be desira- ble to go to Fort William rather than to strike the line from Lake Supe- rior to Red River, some 50 or 60 miles outside the present terminus. I have also had a survey made from Nipigon eastward to Long Lake, and the From Jasper der contract r $40,000 a estimate of but is light asar. 'J'hat Kamloops^ ites at $80,- iipment for wn, instead Mood)', 90 Those 550 [r. Fleming from Fort per Valley, 3,000. To' »f engineer- use will be ovemment id to carry I in British e Govem- !74,$ii^,- 162; from vo years; from July,. r, for sur- ;en Lakes Uver and [9,618, to es in con- I Branch, equipped,, Superior 'hat com^- liles from r extend be con- Central There- :. T am ring the can be ; desira- :e Supe- nus. I and the 88 line there is much more favorable than was before supposed. The line from Nipissing towards the head of Lake Superior is also found to bean extremely favorable line, running through an even countty, well timbered. So that I am happy to be able to say that the completion of our national through line of railway from Ottaiwa to the waters of the Pacific — I may say from Halifax, on the Atlantic, to the waters of the Pacific — will be attended with much less difficulty and expense than we have been led to suppose down to the present time. I need not say we do not propo.se to grapple with the whole of this work at the present moment, but I believe that with the prospect of the development of the great North West ahd the increase of population, at a comparatively early day, the pressure for the construction of the through line will ere long become so great as to warrant and cornpel that work being undertaken as essential in the interests of Canada. Ndw, I believe we may safely put the cost of that work at $30,000 a mile. In the ■first place, we will have easy access to it by the Canada Central, at or near Sturgeon River, sixty or seventy miles west of the present termiilus at South East Bay. From the head of Lake Superior at Kipigon we will again strike the line by water communication, aiid at Fort William we will have a rail- way for the purpose of reaching it at that end. Striking at these three points I believe we may safely put that work at $30,000 a mile, which would add $18,000,000 to complete this great national highway. If we were to put it at $30,000 a mile, an amount to which it maj'^ be safely reduced, we make a total of $82,869,618. Mr. Fleming estimates this 600 miles at $20,000,000, which woold make $84,869,618. When I remind the House that the land alone, according to the authority of the Right Hon. Minister of the Interior, upon a calculation which he believes to be sound, withm the next ten years, will ^ive US$38,000,000 in hand, and $32,000,000 to receive on mortgages within the following ten years, or ^ total sum of ^70,000,000 — it will be seen that we incur no risk. But suppose the land does not give us that, we have an authority which honorable gentlemen opposite will accept, that the customs revenue from the people who will go into the country for the nejtt ten years will furnish the interest on '$60,000,000. I have no hesitation in saying that the wliole sentiment of the country has changed on this question. I am not at all ashamed to say that my own opinions have completely changed in relation to the character of this great work. I remember well that when the then First Minister brought in his act in 1874, for the construction of this as a Government work, I felt that we were incurring too great a responsibility. I believed at .that time it was an unsafe and unsound policy for the Government of this country to undertake the construction of this great national work from end to end as a Government work, and I did not hesitate to express my opinions as freely and as forcibly as I could on the occasion of the passage of that measure. But the whole condition of Canada has changed since then. There is not an intelligent man in this country who does not look upon the prospect of the settlement and development of the Nortli West with entirely different feelings from those that were then entertained. Why, who could listen to the glowing statements of the honorable member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) when he pictured the encwmous tide of emigration into the North Western States, and pointed out that a similar tide 34 **' ,1 wa$ only . waiting for an opportunity to pour into our own North We$t ; who could listen tp the evidence the honorable gentlenoaa gave that the investment of $<4,ooo,ooo capitalized, would have- given the United States all the ntoney that had been received from, those lands and enabje. them to have disposed of them by free grants instead of by sale, without feeling that he was furnishing the stron|;est evidence of the safety of th^ course that this Govei;nment was adopting m grappling with this ques- tiph. By our land regulations we present these fertile regions of our North West Territory in a more attractive form for settlement than even the lands in the United States were offered, and, at the same time, hold within our grasp, for sale, lands enough to more than recoup Canada for every dollar expended on this railway. Let me again quote an opinion that is much stronger with honorable gentlemen opposite than anything I can utter, that is, an article in the great organ of their party, the Ghbe, which, after a most careful examination of this whole question, says : — >' It iq admitted by everyone that the plains of the North West Territories are exceedingly fertile, and capable of sustaining, by agriculture, a population twice a» bumerons as the present population of thd tfnited States. It is also admitted that a railway from Selkirk to the Bocky Mountains will open up the country so rapidly that in a very few years the line will pay, as a commercial ent rpriie. There i» nothing to be gained by constructing it much faster than ;< continuous westward set* tlement can be made on the a4jaf:ent belt of land. But no one can doubt that it will pay the Dominion well to build that piece of road. It will be 900 miles long, or over one-third of '.Jie whole Pacific Railway. * .* * * * * * We find, then, that bo less than 1,924 miles of the proposed Pacific Road may be fairly Considered as a commercial enterprise. That it is also a national enterprise,' is a very poor argument <)gainst the project. When the road has been cfunried from the Eastern terminus to the Rooky Mountains, it is safe to say that the population of the North West will be great enough to contribute to the Dominion Treasury a larger gam than will pay the interest on the loan, for which the olCer Provinces must first pltdge their credit. We have taken no acrv>unt of the land sales, which must, if well managed, put every ypar, a large and cont.uiu-l'y increasing sum into the hands of the Government. •••<«» Qu^ there is a political side to tiie question. British Columbia will feel aggriev^d unless some attempt is made to keep fiiith with her. To develop the resour?:^'^ of the Province in advance of the comple- tion of the Pacific road is not an unreasuuable wish. There is a considerable tract of good territory along the lakes and rivers of the proposed Tale-Eamloops section. That piece of road ^11 cost perhaps f 12,000,000 when equipped, and it is proposed to finish it during the next five years. Canada is asked to spend $2,400,000 a year for the purpose of colonising and contenting British Columbia. The interest on the money will be $96,000 the first year, and $480,000 in the last and each year there- after. Now, it may be thought that this is not a large annual sum to pay for a piece of road, which, though not necessary to the older Provinces, must be built some time, and in the meantime will materially IMORBASI TBI WSALTH AND POPITLATION OF TBS PACIFIC PROVUtCI. If 100,000 people settle in British Columbia during the construction of the road — and there is every reason why that number should go there in the coiirse of a few years — the Dominion will receive from them a revenue sufficient to pay the in- terest on the expenditure. It is no unimportant consideration that the people of the Pacific Province would rebel against the total abandonment of the line, and by glamoring for secesHion endanger tl»e permanence of Confederation." I trust these statements will relieve the honorable gentlemen opposite of Any apprehension they may have as to the entire safety of at onceun- der]tg,king the work, in the cautious manner the Government have adopted. Pwn North gentleman • given the lands and )f by sale, >e safety of this ques- our >forth 3 the lands ivithin our 'ery dollar It is much utter, that ler a most tk ■'. ritorIe« are n twice as tted that a so rapidly There i» ittrard set- ibt that it Qiles long, • ♦ d may be terprldo, is 1 from the ion of the r a larger must first ist, if weli bands of ide to the ie to keep B comple. ■ble tract 8 section, proposed >0 a year '8t on the iar there- >!• « piece lilt 8ome 3 of the iTse of a r the in- le of the and by osite of nee un- lopted. is Now, I must refer once more to that gieat authority in the estimation of the honorable gentlemen opposite. On the opening day of the session, and long before that, at the time the Government were engaged in this explora- tion tp Port Simpson, and investigating as to whether it were possible to find an easier line, what was the G/o/ff telling British Columbia : — <* If Mr. Mackenzie had not been deprived of power, that route, at thii moment, would Imto b(ien under conslructiou, and Iniing rapidly pushed to completion." The G/o^y no doubt, when it found the honorable gentleman not only advertising for tenders, but actually making an expenditure of $32,400, in hot haste during the progress of a general election, to move the rails from Esquimault to Yale, concluded that he was just as serious as I concluded he was. I wa.s not alone, for the organ of his party seems to have been laboring under t^t same misconception, as a reference to the G/ode will show. Not only did the G/olfc say that, but it also stated, on the opening day of this session, if I remember rightly, at the time the leader of the Opposition was actually intimating that he was prepared to go back upon his own record, and abandon the keeping of good faith with British Colum- bia, to which he ha(^ledged this country, it told the people that if he had not lost power the work would have been under construction at that mo- ment. I need not say more than that to show how thoroughly the honor- able gentleman had convinced every person of his intention to go forward with that work. I dare say I will be told by the honorable member for West Durham (Mr, Blaice) : Granted that your figiires are correct, assum- ing that you can build this railway for even less money than you have esti- tiraated, you have only encountered the first difficulty ; you have then, to operate the line, and the cost of that will be so greatly beyond anything you can hope to obtain from it, that you will place an intolerable burden upon the people of this country, I must address myself for a few moments to that question. I will first give the information I have just received from the Superintendent of the Pembina Branch :— " The 160 miles we have now opened in the North West, shows that from the let day of March to the 12th of April we have carried 6,236 ptunengers, and 1,248 loaded cars, containing 12,460 tons of freight. The gross receipts during that short period were $36,387, and working expensta $13,000, leaving a net profit of $21,387, and this durinc; a more difficult and stormy period th">Vi has been known for many years," By July, 1882, we will have about 700 miles of this road in operation; we will have 85 miles from Selkirk to Emerson or St Vincent. We will have 200 miles in operation west of the Red River, which, with the branch of 16 miles to Winnipeg, will give us some 700 miles in operation^ without reference at all to the x section in British Columbia. I have eve;/ reason to believe that every mile of that road, frojn the day it is opened, vifill make an ample return for all the expenditure incurred in its operation. I think it is safe to say that in every succeeding year, as we extend gradually this road towards the Eocky Mountains, it vv'U furnish such an additional volume of traffic from Red River to Thunder Bay, which will become the great entrepot of that country, as will prevent it from burdening the people, and give us some fair return for the interest on the money used in its con- struction. Honorable gentlemen must not forget, as I said before, that the whole aspect of affairs in this country has entirely changed within a brief 89 ! '!■ fcriod ; that that which would have been properly regarded as higiily iDEl4g^lative in relation to the development of the Canadian N:>rth-west, BMHt now Yk, looked upon with very different eyes indeed My honorable ffcdescesBor need only recall to his mind the fact that he publicly adver- tised, ia 1876, offering $10,000 a mile and 20,000 acres of land for the construction of the road, and asking how much more capital tenderers would require four per cent, upon for twenty-five years to induce them to undertake this work. And what was the response? Not a tender. So cmnpletely had the honorable gentleman ooposite succeeded in imbuing the ramds of capitalists in this country and abroad with the hopelessness of this enterprise, that not one of them, would undertake it as a commercial enter- prise oc any terms. What is the condition of thing? to-day, supposing this Govemment were to put an advertisement like that in the papers asking on what terms capitalist? would come forward and construct the road from Red River to Kamloops, and repa> us all the expenditure we have made beyond Red River, andl undertake to maintain and operate not only all that part of that road, but the rest of the road down to Yaie or Burrard Inlet ? Would there be no response ? If such a proposal were made^to-mor/ow, does he icot know that the first capitalist«i of this country woula come to the front and c^r to construct and openite that road on terms that would for ever settle the question, as to wh*^ther this Undertaking would be a serious l^urden on the people of tMs joimtry, I have good reason to state (!^at such an offer as that would secure the construction and operation of the whole line from Red River to Kamloops, with the operation and mainten- ance of all the road to the I'acific, bit a cost not exceeding $13,000 or $10,000 per mile from Red River to Kamloops, and 26,000,000 acres of land. In that case we would be in this position, as the honorable gentleman would see, that the whote expenditure of an unknowti quantity, proving a burden dial could not be calculated, would be entirely removed, and we would be in a position cf having this grea* natioral work accompli£;hed within ten years, and on terms that would involve comparatively light expenditure finxn the people of this country, and that would be a thousaiid times recouped Jix)m the development of the Nortii-west. Mr. Mackenzie— Not a thousand times. Mr. Blake — Nor a hundred. Sir Charles Tupper — While I say recouped, and when I said a thousand Md, I did not mean, as ihe honorable gentleman knows, that the actual amount would be returned a thousand times. I meant that there would be such a development of the magnificent North West of this country as would lift Canfuda rapidly into the position of a nation. And I would ask the honorable gentleman whether, under these circumstances, the Government is not in a position to say that they feel entirely free from any appi^hension as to the co ' either of ihe construction or the operation of this roi d after its construction. Before I sit down, I must refer to the question of cancel- KBg the contract of the Georgian Bay Branch. As the honorable ge.itlemen know, the Creorgian Bay Branch was undertaken without the necessary information. As the honorable gentlemen know, the pclicy of the Govem- VP^Mt of that day had to be completely changed after they ascertained the difficulties. they.would encounter, and the uselessness of the work after it as higiily 'Mth-west, honombte icly adv«r- »d for ihe tenderers i them to nder. So ibuing the ess of this cial enter- osing this asking on rrom Red e beyond at part of Would , does he the front for ever L serious itate n.'^at >n of the mainten- $10,000 md. In in would i burden rauld be :hin ten enditure icouped lousand actual 3uld be 5 would Lsk the rnment tension i after cancel - tlemen :essary ovem- :d the fter it 37 was done. Instead of going from Nipissing to. the Georgian Bay, it w» decided to stop the road ai Cantin's Bay, and canalize the French River from that point. The Government satisfied themselves that, in the interest of Canada, all the money that was expended south of Lake Nipissing would be thrown away. Having satisfied themselves .of that they cancelled that contract. It is now evident that the attention of Hie whole of this countcyr has turned to the question of obtaining the shortest line of conmiimicatioa to our Great North West by Sault Ste. Marie. I^onorable gentlemen oppo* sit^ may remind me that at one time I entertained serious objection to going by Sault Ste, Marie, but the case is different to-day. Mr. Mackenzie — Most other people are going to the States. Sir Charles Tupper — There is nothing that makes one despair so much of the future of th's country as the determined, settled policy of honor- able gentlemen opposite to decry and trample down their own country ; but I tell honorable gentlemen they mistake the patriotism of our peopte if they imagine they will ever ride into power over the ruins of their country. What is wanted to give a rapid and decided impetus to the progress and prosperity of Canada is that patriotism in the hearts aiid minds uf its sons — (cheers) — ^which will enable them to unite in laking up a great national question free from the lowering and degrading tendency of party politics, which leuds men to seek party and persons.! advantages at the cost of the country. When I opposed the constructicw of the line to the Sauit, it was at a tir.ie when we had no hne under consiTuction from Th'mder Bay to Red River ; but the moment the Governuient was committed t ithe building f f that line, it was our duty to look for means by which we oou^d make it pro- ductive. What are those means ? I have satisfied mjself tiiat the road, with its easy grade and cheap rate at which it will be able to bring down the products of the North West, cannot possibly have a competitor. What would be the result of the extension of this road from Nipissing to the Sault Ste. Marie ? • Tlie distance from Montreal to Winnipeg v:'a Chicago is 1,741 niJjes. But, suppose a road were built to the Sault, and a line was built to St. Paul along the south shore of Lake Superior, the distance by that loute would be 1,563 miles. By Duluth, the shortest line to be obtained by way o*" the United States, would be 1,514 miles. From Montreal ti Nipissing, and thence to Thunder Bay and on to Winnipeg, the distance would be 1,358 miles, while by the Sault Ste. Jyiarie and water communication from Goulais Bay to Thun- der Bay, it would be only 1,288 miles. (Cheers.) I believe that with the character of our road, the cheapness with which ^e can bring the traffic ri the North West across it, there is no road, be iv by way of Duluth or St Paul, that can compete with us. Therefore, 1 am glad that there is the prospect of seeing either the Canada Central or Pacific Junction carried through to the Sault, bringing our great North West within sixty hours of Mont- real, and Toronto 100 miles nearer, and that within a comparatively brief period. Those who will look at the Union Pacific Railway, and notice the enormous difficulties its builders had to contend with, will see ours is not a stupendouo task. They ha' to go through a comparatively baren country compared with which ours is a garden. For more than a thousand miles they had to surmount heights of 4,500 feet above the level of the sea, while [M ill j^' 38 passes tiirough which we cross the Rocky Mountains are under 4,000. They have to go through a couhtry where the snowfall in the passes reichei thirty feet, and where they have forty miles of snow-sheds, to prevent traints from being buried. They have to pass through a country with steeper giudes than we will have to encounter, and yet the road was built iii the teeth of just such parliamentary struggles as we are to-day obliged to endure. But, when constructed, the road silenced all opposition; and if Witfi a countiy which, according to a high Artierican authority, embiaces three-fourths of the remaining wheat zone on the American continent, if with this advantage, and our other advantages, we hfesitate in discharging Our duty to the country, we should be unworthy of the position we occupy, either as statesmen or patriotic Canadians. (Loud Cheers.) No person can look abroad over the Dominion without feeling that the great North West Territory is the district to which we must look for our strer^,>* and development. Jurt as the older of the United States look to th,. . great North West, with its rapidly increasing population adding hundreds of thousands and millions to their strength, not only may we look for stren^h by reason of an additional customs revenue from the increased population of that territory, but we must look upon that western country as a field for the mauufacturing industries of the older and more settled parts of Canada. Evuntry with d was built obligcfd to on ; and if > embraces ontinent, if lischarging ^c occupy, "^o person eat North ■ streiy } t to fhj^i mdreds of ■ strength opuladon ildforthe Canada, lusted to >Iicy that thriving ntry, but abhshed, ranary of pulation, y Bruns- 11 be so should a single honora- was on which believe • ise and e over ?d the vilized eds of inpire, their i, and lemen 'ntract, to build the road to Kamloops. And yet the honorable g'lntleman has not decided to proceed with this work ! Mr. Mackenzie — Certainly not. Mr. Langevin — But the honorable gentlen. n said before the electors that he had so decided. Either he deceived the electors of Ottawa or has deceived this House. At that time, the member for West Durham sup- ported the late Government, and had been the colleague of the honorable Premier ; he had assented to his policy, and never separated from the hon- orable Premier on account of the railway work going on. But what a change ! As soon as the late honorable Ministers left office, their party ceased to regard the Pacific Railway in the same light. The honorable member for West Durham, especially, became frightened at the prospect of the construction of more than four sections in British Columbia, Every- thing bocami: dark to him and his party ; the greatest ruin was threatening us in connection with that work, which the late Government had not at- tempted to construct. But what is the cause of this change ? It is this :: that instead of having large deficits we have taken the means of preventing them, at the same time carrying on the Public Works of the country. The member for West Durham should remember that he accepted the Carnar- von terms exacted from the late Government. Of course, the late Govem- nrenfr inserted the condition about not raising further the rate of taxation, but that was after they had raised the taxation by $3,000,000. But did they meet the ordinary expenses even with the $3,ofl«||poo additional taxa- tion ? No. All the time they were in office they ran into debt, which we have now to meet. The honorable gentleman says that those terms were not accepted by the Government without the consent of Parliament. No doubt, but they were accepted by the country. It was understood that $2,000,000 would be expended per annum in British Columbia, but the honorable gentlemen opposite, following their ordinary course towards that T I'M. 'i I Province, repudiated those terms, and sent a Commission to British Colum- bia; she would not accept $75o,ooo.in exchange for the original bargain. Up to that time he would not repudiate the Railway altogether ; but that Government offered that amount to content that Province tor the postpone- ment of the work, as says the honorable member for West Durham. But she was not poor or reduced enough io accept such a bribe, saying : '* We have a Treaty with Canada, which we know is just and proud dnough to do justice to a small, weak Province like British Columbia ; " asd she was right She is not unreasonable; she has taken the word of this Gov- ernment, that it will go on with the Railway ; and though the work was not begun before the ist of January last, the Province knew it was not our fault, and that the contracts would be given out early. Nbw, if the people of British Columbia see the road does not progress at full speed, they will not complain because they know we are acting in good faith, and that if we are not spending more millions and going on faster, it is because we cannot afford it They know we are proceeding gradually and surely with the work. We do not want to plunge the country into debt and ruin as the honorable member for West Durham asserts ; but we want to keep faith with British Columbia, though not at the immense expense he thinks we shall incur. \ye wish to build a good road, a colonization road, as in- tended from the beginning. We shall save a great deal in grades and curva- tures, and by that means, be able to build the road from the Pacific to the older Provinces in such a way as not to overburden this country with expenditure. The honorable member for West Durham desires to catch Irish sympathy and Irish • >tes by expressing great regard for Irish rights and claims, almost going as fat as Home Rule, and anticipating benefits to Ireland from the recent change of Government. I have no doubt that Ireland will get justice whatever Government is in power, as Canada got justice when our fatbers strutted for a responsible Government. We are as much as the honorable gentleman in favour of Irishmen, and we showed our sympathy by proposing to Parliament a vote of $100,000 for the dis- tressed populations of Ireland. Our sole regret was our inability to do more. But we do not on this or any other occasion wish to parade that sympathy. It was proper to show it at the proper time ; but what reason is there for the honorable gentleman to appeal to Irishmen in connection with the Pacific Railway ? Another of the honorable gentleman's objects was to catch all the honorable members from Quebec, and enrol them under his banner. What a bad Government, said he, is this Government which will not give Quebec a Railway to connect it with the Pacific Railway, after it has spent $11,000,000 for the beautiful railway from Quebec to Ottawa. He says to the honorable members from Quebec : — " The Government will not extend the Pacific Railway far enough east to connect with your road ; therefore, look, be careful,, do not miss this opportunity to vote against your friends; my motion 4||M)oses to suspend the Railway in British Columbia." Did he speak about tire eastern end of the railway in his motion? Not a word. He might, therefore, have spared himself the trouble of this appeal. The Government have not changed its policy, which is to have a continuous railway from the Atlantic to the Pacific. The water-stretches will not ' e a part of the railway, as was the case under the late Government. But we must take the necessary time for the work. We can trxist our supporters, n'tish C(rfum- nal bargain, pr; but that ie postpone- irham. But lying: "We oud 6nough ; " a»d she 3f this Gov- 1 the work new it was Now, if the full speed, I faith, and t is because and surely l)t and ruin nt to keep he thinks road, as in- and curva- cific to the untry with to catch rish rights benefits to doubt that rnada got We are ^ showed r the dis- ity to do rade that at reason snnection s objects em under nt which va.y, after Ottawa, nent will ur road; inst your lumbia." Not a I appeal, itinuous not I e a But we •porters, on telling them we are completing the gap of 185 miles between Fort William and Selkirk, and have put under contract, 200 miles on the prairies to the west, and four sections in British Columbia, which the late Govern- ment put themselves under contract and decided to build. The road will not cost the large amount the honorable member for West Durham supposes. He speaks of an expenditure of $ 1 20,000,000. If we were to build a rj^il- way with a grade of 24 or 26 feet to the mile, it might cost that sum. But, as declared, the Government has no intention of building a railway with those small grades. They are all very well, even essential, for that portion which will carry the trade of the prairies from Red River to Thunder Bay. It was required it should be a^ first class road, with small grades and proper cun'atures, the lightest grades we can, under the circumstances, obtain. But we do not say, for all that, we are to undertake at once all the sections of the road. We will proceed with them gradually. The connection with the railways in Quebec and Ontario will also come, when the railway is built from Lake Nipissing to the main line. Whilst I am on the subject, let me quote from the organ of the honorable gentleman opposite, the Globcy a paragraph about this eastern end of the railway : — " We now come to the Lake Superior section, which is certainly « political necessity, but not required till the prairie lini! has been completed and connected witti Thunder Bay. It is, as we have shown, reasonable to suppose that at least half a million people will be on the plains when theT*aciftc Railway reaches the Rocky Mountains. Every family going in afterwards will increase the quantity of produce available for export. The population of the United States doubled itselt in twenty- five years ; in S;;veral western territories the population has been doubled in ten years. The Canadian Korth-West will gain by immigration continually, and — as always happens where fertile land can be easily procured— births will be very numerous. By the time the line to the Rocky Mountains has been completed, it will be wise to push on the road around Lake Superior, because, before it can be built at a fair rate of speed, a large traffic will await itii opening. The Lake Superior section, from the eastern terminus of the main Pacific to Fort William, will be 620 miles long, and, when completed, it will offer to the traffic of the Canadian and to a large part of the American ' North- West, the shortest all-rail route to the seaiward. It is not needed till the prairies have been opened up by the line to the Rocky ^ Mountains. After that has been built, it may be safely completed as a commercial' road, one that will pay better year by year, and will ultimately he a very valuable property." ' ^'* That is the opinion of the Globe newspaper, and I have no doubt that,; at all events, a large majority of the honorable gentlemen opposite will not repudiate this article. The honorable member for West Durham has attacked the figures quoted by my honorable friend the Minister of RflU- ways, giving the cost of the railway from Thunder Bay to Burrard Inlet. The honorable gentleman has made his calculations ; it was a new role .for him to play, being a lawyer, and we have very seldom seen him plunged so deeply into figures as he was this evening. He thought that as he had not handled figures for some time he would m.-rke free use of them on this occa- sion. So when he was making his calculations as to tHe cost of the railway, he thought he might as well as not double the cost estimated by Mr. Flem- ing. The Minister of Railways stated yesterday that the first portion of the road from Fort William to Selkirk would cost $17,000,000 ; from Selkirk to Jasper Valley, $13,000,000 ; From Jasper Valley to Fort Moody, including equipments and engineering, $30,000,000, say $60,000,000 altogether. Add .)t 44 ii\ m to this the cost of preliminary surveys, explorations, etc., $4,869,000, it wbuW make a total of $64,869,000. Add to this a section of the Pacific Railway from Nipissing to Fort William, $24 000,000, if the cost is $40,000 a mile ; but if the cost is $30,000 per mile — as it is more probable to be — it WOul^ amount to only $18,000,000, which, added to the $64,000,000, would make a grand total of $82,869,000. The honorable gentleman has tried to convince the House that these figures have been put together for the purpose of the moment, and that they had no basis, that we could not show that they were the results of careful examination and calculation, such as an engineer should place before the head of his department. Under these circumstances, I may be allowed to give the House the data upon which the Chief Engineer has based those figures. It is proper that the HoUse should know that these figures have not simply been put together to show that the railway will cost $64,000,000 />/us the Nipissing and Fort William portion of the road, making altogether $38,ooo,ooo. The Chief Engineer has furnished the data of his calculations, which I will read to the House : — * "Ottawa, April 16, 1880. " To the Hon. Sir Charles Tujtper, KC.M.O., Minister of Railways and Canals: — " BBTIMATE OF COPT, CAMADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. " Bib, — I have the honor to submit the following eftinmte of the prohable expen^. ditufre necessary to place the Canadian Paciflc Railway in operation fiovcx Lake Supe- rior to jPort Moody. I understand the policy of the Government with respect to the railway to.be.:— ♦'1, Tq Qonstruct the section between Lake Superior and Red River, with the limited griidients aad^nrves set forth in my report, laid before Parliament, so as to- secure cheap transportation, and to provide, by the time the railway shall be readj for opening, an equipment of rolling stock and general accommodation sufficient for the traffic, to be t^en looked for. " 2. To proceed with the work west of Red River by conBtruoting 200 miles of the route recently established. The roadway to be of the character defined by the 48th contract and the tenders for the 66th contract recently received. "To proceed with the construction of 125 miles in British Columbia, under the 60th, 61st, 62nd and 63rd contracts. The expenditure on the 125 miles to be lim- ited, in accordance with the provisions of the contract and the views set forth in my report of 22nd November last. " To proceed gradually with the intervening distance. To delay placing addi- tional sections under contract in British Columbia until the 125 miles are com- pleted or well advimced, thus preventing any undue increase in the price of labor. '* To carry construction westward from Manitoba across the prairie region on'y as settlement advances. ^ " In my report of last year, I placed the cost of the section between Lake Supe- nor and Red River at $18,000,000. Since that date, the steps taken to keep down expenditure on the 185 miles between English River and Keewatin, have been so far successful, as to reduce the length about 3^ miles, and the estimated cost about $500,000. The rails for these two contracts have likewise been secured at a consider- able lower price than the estimate . Whatever an increasing traffic in future years, n»ay demand, in the way of territorial accommodation and rolling stock, I am confi- dent the line ean be opened for traffic between Fort William and Selkirk, well equipped for the business which may for some time be expected, at a cost not ex- ceeding $17,000 000. West of Red River, 100 miles have been placed ur>der contract, and tenders have been received for a second 100 miles section. TL^se two Kections are designed to be constructed and equipped in the most economical manner, dispt^nsing i i 'j all out- lay, except that absolutely necessary to render the railway immediately x.vjiul in the ^ 869,000, it the Pacific : is $40,000 ble to be — $4,000,000, tleman has ogether for could not ation, such Jt. Under data upon T that the together to and Fort The Chief ead to the 5, 1880. *ble expen- Lake 8upe> 3pect to the r, with the it, 80 as to- ll be ready ifScient for >0 milea of ed by the under the to be lim- >rth in my nng addi- are com- f labor. jion onJjr ike Supe- eep down sen 80 far jst about consider- re years, im confi- irk, weli t not ex- ers have ed to be ail out- il in the •settlement of the country. It is Intended that the line be partly ballasted to render it available for colonisation purposes, Ml ballasting being deferred until the traffic •demand high speed. It is intended to provide sufficient rolling^tock for all imme- •diate wants, postponing full equipment until the country becomes populated and the business calls for its increase. On this basis, and on tne data furnished by the contracts which have been let .and the tendent recently received, I am of opinion that the railway can be opened from Lake Huperior to the Pacific coast within the following estimate : — 46 miles, Fort William to Selkirk, with light gra- dlent«, including a fair allowance of rolling-stock and engineering during construction $17,000,000 100 miles, Selkirk to Jasper Valley, with light equip- ment, etc 13,000,000 550 miles, Jasper Valley to Port Moody, with light equipment, etc., Jasper to Lake Kamloops, 355 at $43,660 $15,600,000 Lake Kamloops to Yale, 1 25 at $80,000 10,000,000 Yale to Port Moody, 90 at $38,888. 3,500,000 $29,000,000 Add 1,000,000 30,000,000 Total miles 1,956 $60,000,000 The above does not include cost of explorations and preliminary surveys throughout all parts of the country north of Lake Nipissing to James Bay in the east, and from Esquimault to Furt Simpson in the west, latitudes 49° and 56", not properly chargeable to construction, $3, 11 9,6 18 ; or the Pembina Brau^h, $1,750,000 ; or with other amount with which the Pacific Railway account is charged. . I have the honour to be. Sir, Tour obedient servant, • 8ANDF0RD FLEMING. Another point the honorable member for West Durham endeavoured to make against my honorable friend was when he stated that, from Lake Kamloops to Yale, we had no data to go upon when we stated the Railway between those two points would cost $10,000,600. On that point, as on the other, 1 will ask the permission of the House to read a short extract from a report of Mr. Fleming, on which this estimate was based ; — I have examined, says Mr. Fleming, the rates given in the lowest tenders ; they generally bear a fair relation to each other, and are about the prices for which other work has been recently plac d under contract on oth(!r sections of the railway. I do not think experienced and roKponsible contractors would be safu in undertaking to do the same work at less rate. The total sum of the lowest tenders for the four sections, as above stated, is $9,167,040. It will be borne in mind that the character of the contract to be entered into is materially different from ordinary contracts. Tbis sum represents the maxi- mum. The contract is not to exceed the amount, but it may be very much less. — (See clauses 5, 6, and 7.) Those who made the surveys and calculations inform me that the quantities are very full, and that, in actual execution, they can be largely reduced. I am convimed, moreover, that, by making an extremely careful study of the final location, by sharp- ening the curvatures in some places, by using great judgment in adjusting the align- ment to sinimosities and sudden and great inequalities of the ground, by substituting the cheaper classes of work for the more costly whenever it can safely be done, and by doing no work whatever that -is not absolutely necessary, a very marked reduction ■can be made. p m Hi T*)i3^e House ^ill( sec by this statement with what precaution the Government acted in this matter. We took care to keep in our hands full power to stop that work at any time, if it should become necessary to do so^ or to curtail the amount of work, or diminish the expenses, llie contracts are entirely in the hands of the Goverpment If a financial crisis should occur, w^ would only have to stop the contracts, and the only liability on the part of the Government would be that of giving to the contractors a time equal to that of the suspension of his contracts. Therefore, though the honorable gentleman from West Durham tried to frighten the House, he must admit that the whole thing is in the hands of the Government. If we have the money, we may go on ; if we have not the money, we need not proceed. The Government is pledged to British Columbia, and we must keep faith with her. When I speak of the Government, of cours*-, Z speak of Tarlia- ment. because we, as a Government, are in the hanUs of Parliament, and Parliament may, at any time it thinks proper, stop the work. Mr. M'ackenzib — Parliament is in your hands. Mr. Langevin — The country will thank our party and this Govern- ment for such a boon. The honorable member for West Durham, in warn- ing the Province of Quebec against this Government in its policy On the Pacific Railway, should have given some evidence of the good will and great services, and great Ovjncessions that the Province of Quebec had ever received at the hands of honorable gentlemen opposite. He should have told the members from that Province how they had been treated when, two or three 'years ago, their Province came to this House and asked for redress. He should have told them how the petition of that Province was treated by fliose honorable gentlemen when it was presented to the House. What re- dress did they give to Quebec ? In 1878, where was the honorable member for West Durham when that question was put to a vote ? Did he show his friendship towards Quebec and her representatives ? Did his name appear in the division that then took place ? You will see that amongst the names Of 70 members out of 112, the name of the honorable member for West Durham is not to be found in the vote on the Letellier question. The honorable gentleman had been in the House, but when the vote came on he was not to be found. He would not give his vote for the Province of Quebec. After th.at, it is rather doubtful whether the members for Quebec v/ill put themselves in the hands of the honorable member for West Durham. And now, it is well that we should study a little, the course of the honorable gentleman on the Picific Railway question. He was opposed to the branch from Esquimault to Vanaimo, and the honorable member for Lambton had not the courage to resist him, and he threw out the Bill. The honorable gentleman further says, that we are not bound by the Carnarvon terms. I suppose the honorable member for Lambton had again to bow to his honor- able friend, and say the Carnarvon terms must go also. The next point is,, the honorable member for West Durham said, or wished the country to believe, that there was some pledge on the part of the Government of Canada, to build a railway there. Thtrefore, he assented to th« proposal of the honorable member for Lambton, to offer that Province $150,000 as compensation. That was refused. For what was it offered ? As compen- 41 ^tion for ^he delays that occurred in the building of the road in British C9luml>ia. . ^ jiiji Mr. Blake — And would occur. i Mr. Langevin — Then came the tenders called for by the Hon. the First Minister, for the four sections in British Columbia. The honorable member for West Durham assented to them. Mr. Blake — How did I assent to them. Mr. Langevin — The honorable gentleman assented to them by con- tinuing tfc» give his support to the honorable member for Lambton, and by supporting him at the elections. Mr. Blake — I was in England before these tenders were called for, and I did not return until last December. Mr. Langevin — Then why did not the honorable gentleman state on the hustings that he did not agree with his honorable friend ? Sir Richard J. Cartwright — Because he was not here at the time the elections came off. Mr. Blake — I said I had left this country for the Old Country before these tenders were called for, and I did not return until last December. As a niatter of fact, I was not aware that any such tenders had been called for until a few months within the present speaking. Mr. Langevin — I accept what the honorable gentleman says, but it is strange he never took an opportunity of declaring that he had not assented to the calling for these tenders, and that he knew nothing about them. It is one of the strangest things possible that the honorab'c gentleman, while from. the country, never saw a Canadian paper, and was ignorant of what was going on in this country. The honorable gentleman now says that if his honoral.^ie friend, tlie honorable member for Lambton, had wished to build these four sections he would have opposed him. It is late in the day to make this statement. We can see how the mind of the honorable gentle- man is drifting. There is, first, the giving up of the Esqir" ^"ult and Nanaimo Branch; then the offer of $75,000 compensation, ", subse- quently, his attitude in relation to these four contracts. Now, what has he done during the past year ? The honorable gentleman, being convinced that this Government was to build the railway to Bute Inlet, de- nounced the policy of the Government, and it was asserted on the other side of the House that we were expending $20,000,000 more than would be required to build the same road on the Fraser River. Had we adopted that route they would have asked, '* Why did you not take the route we selected by the Fraser River ? We called for tenders, and by accepting them you would effect a saving of $20,000,000 to the country." So they found their little game was over, and now their policy was to denounce what they wished for themselves. Now, what is the next move of the honorable member for West Durham ? He asks us to postpone these con- tracts, and his next move will be to ask that there shall be no railroad at all. The country, however, is not of chat opinion. The coimtry wants this rail- way, as it wanted the Intercolonial. We do not want to be at the mercy of our neighbours on the other side of the line. We want to build up a great 48 !: i ir nation in British North America. We want this Confederation of ours to be a success, and to make it a success we must have a Pacific Railway of our oiirn. It is a necessity of our position, a necessity of Confedetlation, and therefore the people have determined that that road shall be built. But we are alive to the position of the country. We do not want to build 1*^56 miles of road in two, three or four years. We will take the iMoeasary time to constnict it, and we will construct it as the wants of the country require it. Another thing that must have struck honorable gentlemen is the deter- mination of honorable gentlemen on the other side {and I am sorry to say the honorable member for West Durham) to depreciate this country. From beginning to end, the si)eech of the honorable gentleman was a doiK)rAble gentlemen, speaking of banks and bauik stocks, said that a number of banks had disappeared. Let him look at and compare the list of stocks ';wo and a half years ago with the list to-day. and he will see an immense diAorence this year, and last year, in the Value of stock. He is determined to have nothing good in this country ; he is determined to see, and show, .-.othing but ruin and decay. It is the old cry ; his friends, when he was quite young, spoke of the same ruin and decay ; and so it is going on, and wili^o on from gcntrration to generation ; and I . have no doubt this same cry will be repeated at appropriate intervals, by the children of these gentlemen in ten, and fiftcea, and twenty, and thirty years hence. As long a-j they cftnnol sit on these Benches, so long as they are not in power, everything ceases to be bright, everything is- dark; no emigration can come. Mr. Blake — That is just what you said at the Unt election. . , MjT,. JiAMGKvm — ^The honorable ^ndeman says, that is wlwit we said at the last election. We had good cause at that time. TIbe honorable 51 West any sons does Bum; they they will 3 provide ish. The w why — ; country, i." Well, 3, horses, States if e horses, ed States, lere, with ly of- the le should ler reason d you will he brings he bnngs id French- is he can, a reason part the inister of direction, eal estate, lenaber for iie of real real estate Uentlemen has been I one end U of banks I^t him th the list :ar, in the untry ; he $ the old md decay ; n; aiid I jrvalis, by luid thirty ig as they dank; no t we said lionorable gentlemen opposite had brought the country to the last point possible ; we had been brought to the eve of a national bankruptcy, by the financial policy of gentlemen on the other side ; the country was in a most deplorable condition : people were leaving it at every point ; the revenue had fallen off ; deficit after deficit had rolled up, and we had to call upon the people and point out the cause of this state of things. That brought about a change, and having been put in power by the people, we , inaugurated a wise policy for improving the condition of the country, and the honorable gentleman must see that we have been successful enough. The country imderstood us, and they have brought us here to promote the prosperity of the country, and we have to a great extent succeeded aJveady, though we may expect to do more during the next year. In conclusion, I only wish to say that the present occasion is, in ray opinion, the only opportunity that this Parliament has had of deciding m this great question decisively. This is the first time that we have been met, fece to face, with the important questiop, whelher or -lOt we are to continue to have Confederation, for which we have labored year after year to bring about, whether that great work is to last or not ? It is for honorable gentlemen to decide, and I appeal to the honorable member for Lamb ton —he must be ip favour of Corufederation — as his honorable friend, who, I am sorry to know, is in a very precarious state of health. Let us vote this amendment down. Do »iot let us destroy Confederation ; it is a reat, a good work, a work by which the institutions of England are to be made permanent on this continent ; it is a work to secure freedom for our children for all time to come, to build a great Empire on chis continent. We shall not, perhaps, see it fully peopled ; but the time will come, if we look to the country instead of to ourselves ; if we look to the country instead of to these benches. Honorable gentlemen should not forget that at the period of this Confederation being brought about, these Provinces were small dependencies of England ; they were scattered, and far asunder j the leading men of each Province did not know the leading men of the other Provinces ; they had no common intercoui-s2 ; they did not know their separate institutions ; they were separated and isolated from each other as much as we are separated from Ireland or China ; but to-day we are a xmited Dominion ; we are a great countr)', a powerful country, if we be only rrue to ourselves. We are not very numeroi —a little over 4,000,000. But when the United States separated from Enf.-.'.nd they were only 4,000,- 000 ; today they are 40,000,000 of people, pe haps 45,000,000 ; and, Mr. Speaker, they have not a better country than ours ; they had no better prospects and advantages than we have j they have had bloody wars ; we have had no bloody wars ; they had a bloody war to bring about their independence, and they had another bloody war afterwards ; they had a fratricidal war, which was a most bloody war. We have had no such bloody war^ ; England has recognized our rights, has recognizee the true policy of maJcing this country a free country, and we are so free that we have not a single British soldier, we have not a !ioldiei of the British army amongst us, with the excepiion of a small number at Halifax, left to assist in the guardianship of that coast. We am left in the free exercise of our rights, and every man is loyal cu UtC Empu<: i^vas a member. His friends were greatly disappointed. He scarcely referred to the issues of the campaign so far as they turned upon the acts of his Government, and his half hearted support of his associates was their imp^" condemnation. He did not f;iil, however, to deail most minutely \s matters connected with his own department of Justice, claiming great credit for having achieved without difficulty what his predecessor (Sir John Mac- donald) had failed to accomplish— for haying cleared up accumulations of business left on his hands, I infer, by Messrs, Porion and Foumier, who had gone to their reward on the Bench where electors cease from troubling, for having despatched promptly and with ease the ever increasing business of the Department, and yet at the following session the honorable gentleman did not hesitate to support a measure of his Government for the division of the Department, and the new appointment of an Attorney-General at a salary of $7,000 a year, on the ground that the labour was too heavy for one chief officer. At the Teeswater meeting it was noted that the honorable gentleman was very lukewarm in justifying the course pursued by his colleagues. He \ 54 i Hi III was amply able, if he had so chosen, to find arguments, whether sound or otherwise, for the defence of the Government of which he had been a member, but though he failed to do so, the public has aiv" avs aeld hmi-r^ppnstble, and will always hold him responsible, for the wholecours^ of tht Adtnmistration of which he formed a part. We have heard for the first time now the con- ditions upon which he says he took office under the hoijorable gentleman who led the late Government (Mr. Mackenzie.) - 'jThe chief characteristics of the honorable gentleman's political career are its capricious inconstancy and its utter inconsistt icy. At one moment, " letting I dare not wait upon I would," he refuses a seat in the G^veTi - ment ; at another, he accepts a position befitting his professional standing ; at another, retires from it to a comparative sinecure made vacant by ihe promotion of a colleague whose presence was a perpetual reminder of unsavory transactions, while his own place was filled by an arrangement for \\ hich he is directly responsible, and which ought to have received his indignant opposition. The honorable gentleman says he retired, but he carried with him the responsibilities of which he cannot rid himself, complicity with every act of which he had been cognizant while he remained in office. We were then told that the honorable gentleman intended to withdraw from political life. He doubtless knew far better than we did the sins which he would be called upon to justify if he remained. The anxious electors of South Bruce sent urgent delegations to him urging him to accept re-nomination, and he at last, when they brought him a requisition having a formidable array of signatures, *' vowing he would ne'er consent, corsented," but wisely left his supporters to fight the battle while he turned his back upon the campaign and remained absent from the country until the elec- tions were over and his own signal defeat had been secured. Again he coquetted month after month with those of his party — and they were not by any means the whole of his iiarty— who desired to bring him back to the present Parliament, one session of which had been held without his presence. When it was aimounced last autumn that the retirement of Mr. Burke had been arranged, and that the honorable gentleman would accept the nomination for West Durham, we waited with much curiosity to hear what ground he would take in the platform for his canvass. We expected to hear additional theories, unsubstantial as those of the Aurora declarations, and perhaps more startling and disturbing, for at one time he aj nears as the advo- cate of radical changes in our political system, involving a progress which is almost revolutionary, and which many less ardent ))Ut perhaps more sincere and practical levellers deem dangerous. At othei times, as we have just now he.ard, he calls upon us suddenly to halt -n the m'dst of our career, to make a swift retreat and entrench ourselves l)chind the dismantled and decaying fortress of 187 1, a retreat that would involve the abandon- ment and surrender of all the. great advantages we have gained since that period. When, however, at West Durham he proclaimed his platform, we were surprised to find that part of his speech — and a very large part of it it was — which bore upon the National Policy was made up of stale quota- tions from the G/ode — was in fact an argument prepared apparently out of 55 the threadbare editorial articles of that paper. He entered Parliament and took a seat on the back benches with ostentatious hiunility. He has shown ' that he is not tc ^e contented with that position. He has now placed him- self in such an attitude that his utterances must be dealt with as of a party character, and it is almost distressing to see the manner in which his late colleague, and I may now say his late leader, the honorable member for Lamb- ton (Mr. Mackenzie), humbly takes up his argument, and even goes further than the honorable gentleman himself in decrying the ability of the country to build the Pacific Railway, which was the gravamen of that honorable gentle- man's argument. I followed him (Mr. Mackenzie) through a great part of his speech with surprise and deep regret, as I have no doubt did many other honorable gentlemen who noted its tone and spirit. There has been nothing said or done in the House so well calculated to dishearten and discourage this country as the remarks of both those gentlemen. The speech of the honorable member for Wesc Durham (Mr. Blake), especially, was a fimeral dirge from beginning to end — a doleful sound from the tombs — a wail over a lost Israel of power — a Jeremiad like the lamentations of th" Hebrew Prophet whose name has become an adjective. He warned us we were going too fast — that we had no justification for claiming that we were making healthy progress ; that this country could offer no attractive inducements for emigrants ; that the Teutonic races were led to form settlementr in the United States by common political sympathies and Democratic sentiments ; that the Celtic expatriation was always towards the great Republic which heard and responded to the appeals of down-trodden Ireland, and that the expatriation would now be checked by reason of the change in the Imperial rk)vemment, in the " so-called United Empire," — and we marked the sar- castic sneering emphasis with which he pronounced these words — and we might hope through that change for the Sunburst of Home Rule, and for the resulting justice so long denied or delayed. He said we had practically nothing to look for to take up oiu: vacan'. lands except the immigration of a few English ienaut farmers, who would be at- tracted to the Dominion by similarity of instimf ' >ns and political sympathies ; tliai: there was no hope for us except in imiu<*diately reversing our whole policy ; that otherwise the country could not possibly meet its pecuniary engagements, or sustain the burthens which could not be thrown off. But the hon. member for West Durham did not utter warnings of this kind dming the five years of the rule during which he sanctioned by his presence on the Treasury Benches the disastrous depletion of the Treasury, the reckless in- crease in departmental expenditure, and the extravagant and blimdering railway policy of a Reform Government that had nothing to reform except their own maladministration. During the great depression under which the country was suffering in that trying period, when the colleagues with whom he was associated were p^ ^ceding With the extravagant schemes he now denounces — were engaged ii. expensive enterprises of which they have thrown upon the present Gov«.mment, the necessity of carrying forward — building railways, opening up new territory, and increasing in every man- ner, which the hon. member for West Durham now cioquciitiy condemns, the public debt, while the Treasury suffered from increasing deficits, for which no provision was suggested b^ wie hon. gentleman, or by his iinme- diately culpable colleagues, he did not lift up his voice of warning. He m 56 did'hot take die position lie now assumes, though there was a greater rea- soil f 57 against his side of the House, although I regret to say that the <:hief offender of all, because I believe he sms against light and knowledge, is the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake), whose utterances are still ringing in our ears. It is piinful to hear what that honorable gentleman has said of the state of affairs in this country, and it would be still more painful to heai it if we did not know that it was but a mere figkne^t of his bilious imagination. It is more than two years ago since the lat& Finance Minister jauntily predicted ftom his place in this House that tht culminating point in our commercial depression had been reached. That honorable gentleman, when it suited him, could speak as cheeringly about the prospects of the country as any one upon this side of the House. But he wished merely to cover his shortcomings ; he had no actual knowhdge that the time had come when the depressivin was to pass away. But thai honorable gentle- man never tired of pointing out the condition of the United States as an example to be shunned. He told us that that highly protected country, having committed suicide ly adopting a pro- tective system, was in a state of fiscal ruin rom which it could never recover. Now the tune is entirely changed Consistency can- not be expected from desperate partisans, and I was not surprised to hear the honorable member for West Durham lauding the Unitet! States, and quoting it as an example of prosperity which we could "hot hope to reach or even approach. But when I ventured, as I thought I might, to ask him whether that country which he was so highly lauding, v as not a highly protected cpuntry, the honorable gentleman, instead of an'iwering me candidly, put his hand upon his heart and said he was too feeble to be in- terrupted, and trusted we would not question him and allow him to go to the ecd of his speech without interpellation. I hav* always endeavored to treat, t iiat honorable gentleman with the courtesy to which I think every hon- orable gentleman has a right. I refrained, therefore, from pressing for a reply, although I believe that the interpellation had its effect and will take a place in the official reports as a parenthesis in the hpnorable gentleman's speech, and be, perhaps, a smill antidote to a great bane. My honorable friend said there was a large increase of population in the United States. He njiust remember that the system of exclusive protection was '--Itiated in that country in i86x;, when the Morrill T^aiiff was passed, and the great m- crease of population and the rapid growth of prosperity to which he refers, notwithstanding the civil war, dates from that period. But the hon- orable gentjeman did not state half the case when he gave the quantity of the sales of land that had been made in the Western States, and built upon it an argument against the calculation of the Premier. He then only stated the sales the Government had made, which are not, I venture to say, although I have not made the calculation, ip per cent, of the entire sales. The great sales of land in that country have been made hy li^ilway corporations holding enormous grants of the public lands under the very system w« propose CO adopt here, that of building railways in advant i of settlement, and trusting to the sale of lands to recoup the JUtlfiy. The railways of the Western States preceded the influx of population which the honorable gen- tleman emphasises, and acted as potent colonizing agents. Kansas, which the honorable member has specially referred to, would be nothing without 68f^ the great railways which run through it. It was by a combination of railway charters with land grants that the Western States had been buih up and have increased so rapidly in population. Northern Missouri and '- Illinois were largely populated by such means, and Illinois was one of the ■ first which felt the influence of that system. The Illinois Central Railroad was greatly instrumental in filling that State with inhabi- tants, and giving it wealth and power. Now, we have proposed to take a leaf out of the book of that country which my honorable friend says is so prosperous, and which, under his commendati ^ns, we may perhaps venture to imitate. Why should not the same system pr-)ve success- ful here that has proved so successful there? What have they got which we have not ? What advantages have the North Western States which our own North Western Territories haVe not? The whole argument of the honorable gentleman opposite is that our country does not present advan- tages to intending emigrants which are presented by the States upon the borders of Manitoba and southward, including Texas, that owing to the difficulty of transport of supplies, absence of markets, isolation and many other objections with which we have been made familiar, emigrants will not be induced to take up our lands, that the climate is inhospitable, and last and worst, that the system adopted by the Government is calculated to deter actual settlers and throw the lands into the hands of speculators. It is claimed by the honorable gentlemen opposite that the experience of the Western States confirms their previsions. I think they are greatly mistaken. We have seen that the great railway which extends from the Missouri to the Pacific Ocean has been built by private enterprise. Notwithstanding the enormous siims spent upon it, there has never been a day in which the bonds of the California Central Railway have been below par, even in the greatest period of depression. We are told now that we must halt after having^ ejroended millions on our f*acific Railway, after having fully committed our- selves and the coufttry to the great enterprise, although we believe we are fully in accord with public sentiment in the course we are pursuing, and that the country reposes full confidence in the wisdom and prudence of our leaders in resptet to the rate at which the work shall proceed, although we feel assured that the task can be accomplished without permanently or pre- sently increasmg the public burthens. My honorable friend from West Durham presents his Budget to' the House, contaiiiing a dismal, but, I fear, not a candia array of statistics, and demands that we shall abandon a scheme which the Government of which he was a member, equally with that which I support, are bound to fulfil. Nothing can be imagined which would be more detrimental to the interests of this country than the acceptance of his proposition. I under- take to say that, if the policy he urges were adopted, our securities in the English market would immediately fall, and continue to decline in price. To adopt that policy would be a confession of judgment, and we should soon see the effects of it. The honorable gentleman is trifling with the best interests of this country when he proposes to go back upon our word in re- gard to that great undertaking. I have never advocated going on with it in such a way as to press unduly upon the taxpayers of this country. But the fir^t act of the honorable gentleman and his friends, when they came in- to office, was to increase the taxation by a simi declared by the late Finance 59 our the Minister to be $3,000,000. It is useless for them to say it was because there were other obligations resting on the country than that of building the Pacific Railway which were to be thus provided for. It can be shown that money raised under the tariff of 1874 was spent in the abortive Pacific Rail- way schemes of the late Government, contrary to the solemn pledges of Parliament. I was surprised at the disingenuousness of the manner in which the honorable member for West Durham brought before the House the charge — so often repeated and never substantiated — that there was something culpable in the increase of the expenditure of ten nuUions in 1874, as compared with 1867. I took the pains to examine every item of the increased expenditure ; I produced them here, and challenged our friends opposite, to show where there had been an increase in any one of them which was not necessary and justifiable. I pointed out that there had been no objection made to them at the time by any member of the then opposition. I asserted, without contradiction, that nearly a million of dollars of the expenditure, properly chargeable to 1875, was fraudulently thrown upon that of 1874. The honorable gentleman instituted a compari- son between the expenditures of 187 1 and 1874. Mr. Blake — I made no such comparison. Mr. Plumb — My honorable friend will not interrupt me, because I claim the same privilege that he did. I say fraudulently, iii a political sense ; and I say that the honorable gentleman can easily be shown that the growth of the country — her recognized obligations and her necessary duties, to say nothing of her best policy — absolutely forbids and makes it impossible for her to go back to the scale of expenditure of 1871, which he ui^es, as one that should be adopted. And I defy my honorable friend to take up item by item of the increased expenditure, which he so strongly condemns, ind shew a single instance, up to 1872, to which there was any objection majde at all. In the spring of 1873, I acknowledge that the hon- orable member for Centre Huron (Sir Richard Cartwright) did make a fee- ble criticism of the budget of my honorable friend then, and now the Finance Minister. He had previously confined his financial criticisms to a few fee- ble utterances upon the militia estimates. In 1872, it will be remembered, the G/o6e newspaper denounced that eminent financier as a mixer and mud- dler of figures, and violently opposed his election ; but my honorable friend from West Durham accepted him as a colleague holding the Portfolio of Finance in 1873 ; and is trora that time responsible for evyry act which he sanctioned by remaining in office. Between 1867 and 1874, every item of expenditure had been made necessary by circumstances and obligations connected with the union of the Provinces and the extension of our terri- tory ; and I defy the honorable gentleman to point to a single item of ex- penditure which has not been accepted and continued by the Administration which succeeded the Government overthrown in 1873. They were entirely untranunelled when they came into power — and I would ask, Why did they not cut off that expenditure ; why did they not reduce that expenditure ; why did they not fulfil their loud-mouthed promises of economy and re- trenchment? We may admit, for argument's sake, that they were bound by the Pacific Railway agreements with British Columbia, although my honorable friend argues that they were not. But, why did w 60 they go on with that expenditure, as a Government work, when, as is asserted on the other side of the House, our scheme had failed? Why did they make the obligations larger year by year? Why did they at the outset throw away inunense sums on useless telegraph lines, long before the railway line, to which they were to be an adjunct, had been located or even surveyed? I defy my honorable friend from West Durham to answer those questions satisfactorily. I would like my honorable friend to explain whether he and his colleagues in one single instance reduced, without injury to the country, one single item of the expenditure which they assert had been so reckless, so extravagant, and so corrupt When those honorable gentlemen came into power, they found an overflowing treasury. They found that there had been a large surplus year by year, notwithstanding a heavy remission of taxes, in taking off the duty on tea and coffee, during the Administration that held power from the time of Confederation till 1873. During that time over $10,000,000, out of the surplus revenues, had been spent in public works, properly chargeable to capital account ; and there was no deficit impending when they took the keys of the public chest. There could not have been a deficit in that year or the next. Upon meet- ing, in the spring of 1873, the Parliament, which had been elected the previous summer, my honorable friend (Sir Leonard Tilley), then as now the Finance Minister, stated that engagements which had been and would be entered into would probably involve an ultimate necessity for increased taxation. He said that the revenue for the coming year would be sufficient for all purposes, and leave a moderate surplus, but that he would probably find it necessary to deal with the Tariff at the next session, and that when he did so he should keep in view the protection of but home industries, and promote the interests of this country in that direction as far as practicable* He was succeeded by the Hon. the ex-Finance Minister (Sir Richard Cart- wright), who, it is well Jtnown, commenced bis career by denouncing his predecessors in the mos^ violent terms, by grossly overstating and misstating the extent and character of the obligations, under which they had placed the country. He roundly asserted that the Pacific . Railway they had undertaken ip construct would cost the country more' than $J5p,ooo,ooo ; that they left above 131 millions to provide for ; that It W0UI4 create a greater public debt, in proportion to our resources and population, than the national debt of England; and that they had left upon him 131 millions of obligations which, poor man, he had to provide for— but he added that he was fully equal to the task. He painted every-, thing in the blackest colours, he stated that the country had been ruined ' Ijy the extravagance of the Ministry that, had just then retired. The honor- able gentleman then increased, or permitted the increase, of the public expenditure in every possible form. He piled deficit on deficit, he made . no provision for those deficits, except a novable suggestion that the yearly . contributions to Sinking Fund should not be charged against the yearly expenditure on it^me account, and when he went out of office, the necei- " sity devolved on my honorable friend of providing for them. I have not heard my honorable friend from West Durham, during the course of his long and exhaustive oration, touch at all upon any plan which he would have pro- posed to bring forward to relieve the country from the burdens which had been 61 thrown upon it by the gentlemen with whom he has been associated for five years. The honorable gentleman is a special pleader. He takes his pleas from his brief with great ingenuity, energy and eloquence, but after all it is nothing but special pleading. Every one who listened to the honorable gentleman during the whole of his oration, felt that he was endeavoring to present from his point of view, arguments, not as a statesman, not as the rising hope of a. great party, to whom the young men of Canada at one time looked for better things, but as a pleader of a special case, for a special purpose, which every nun whp listened to him felt was nothing more nor less than the word of a trained advocate, and an ingenious hair-splitting counsel. The speech of the honorable gentleman gives us the raison d'etre of his again com'.ig in the flesh among men, and claiming to take a part in the a0airs which he affected to have done with forever. Less than a year ago he described huuself as a ghost revisiting the earth whose interests he had ceased to interfere with. But the honorable gentleman soon tired of playing the role of a wandering spirit cut off from his familiar associations and am- bitions, and he comes, like Banquo, with twenty mortal speeches in his mouth, to push his late leader from his stool and usurp his place. The honorable gentleman's temper is (oo excitable, and his nature is too imperious and arbitrary, and his organization is too nervous to bear the brunt and stress which must be borne by a party leader, especially the leader of a forlo^,hope» disorganized and demoralized like that which now confronts us and is not at unity with itself. The hpnorable gentleman could not rpfrain frpm a malignant attack upon the Sister Provinces in his denunda^ipi;! of the policy by which they have been misled into Confederation.. According to him each one has been guilty of a lapse of virtue which is little better th^ shameless prostitution. Nova Scotia was secretly, bribed, and then, half reluctant, forced into consent A disgraceful bargain seduped Qviebsc- New Brunswick sold her wates in the market, and pocketed the price of her dishionour. Prince Edward Island yielded to the tempter and feU. Even weak M<3nitoba made som.^ show of resistance, which was but coyness, and bccaine ;^n easy, if not a willing victim, but the crowning shame was the foul bargain with British Columbia, which was made, according t,o th "on the first day of April, 1 87 1, "fitting day for fittinff deed," Do we undcis»»ihd the honorable gentleman, that he cc»n,«'ders the barfi^ins, if such they are, of i; nature tl.ac they should now be repudiated, or is he willing to abide by ?. wrohjt. provided he can rule the destinies of a Union which be; so eloquently denounces. To go back to 187 1 would be to cast off British Columbia and Prince Edward Island, and (Usfranchise Manitoba and tlie Northwest Is it part of the hdn. gentleman's programme, one of the issues of his new departure, to un- twine the bonds that unite the Provinces ? The studied effort to sow dis- content among them would seem like it, but it is impossible to measure the depth Qr height of the honorable gentleman's arguments. As he said at Aurora, he is always fond of makupig disturbing speeches, and he is also always " ill at ease," and " languishes for the purple mints'* of chimeras which everyone but a vague political dreamer luio^vs to be unsubstantial and . unattfiinable. His ^oorny utterances might have found sorue response when oiir community were bowed down by the disasters through which we were passing three or four years ago, and the bravest held his breath while the 62 financial tornado and hurricane was at its height, but now he is as one born •out of due time. There is a hopeful feeling, a spirit of enterprise abroad, and the instincts of a young, energetic country are entirely anta- gonistic to his sepulchral doctrines. The honorable gentlemap from Lambton (Mr. Mackenzie) has just told us that when he came into power, he found that the negocia. tions of Sir Hugh Allan and his co-Directors, in respect to obtain- ing means for buildin^r the Pacific Railway under the charter that they held, had wholly failed, h't that his Government, recognized that they were the trustees of the preceding Government and of the people, in so far as the agreement to construct the roid was concerned. Twey were, however, free from the traminels of any previous legislation in respect to the manner of constructing the road, and the)r chose to undertake it as Government work. My honorable friend is never tired of repeating, both here and elsewhere, that when he brought down the Pacific Railway resolutions in 1874, they were passed without an amendment having been proposed, without the change, as he said on one occasion, "of the dotting of an 'i' or the crossing of a 't.'" The honorable gentleman was then backed by an enormous, unreasoning, over-beanng, mechanical majority. When the honorable gentleman brought down his resolutions, they nfere rushed through at a late hour. At three o'clock in the morning the debate was choked off ruthlessly, and there ^re gentldnen now present sitting in this House to-day who khov that when the honontble gentleman stated that no aniendment wias offered to those ii'esolutioh^, either his tntmory was treach«<:rous or' he intentionally stated that which was not the case. The honoraole gehtlemim, if he will lookiat the votes and proceedings of that day^l have them here — will fihd there were three amendments proposed, one by the honorable member for Frohtenac ani[l two by the honorable merpiber for Vancouver. They were voted dowh, of course, by tHe large majority that sat behind the, honorable gentleman, ready at all tithes to submit to his diptum. The honorable genileman, in the course of the next session — early in 1875,-— laid on the table of the House two Ifiaicific Railway cofntiicts :. One for No. r^, beirig fbr grading and bridging the then contemplated lihie from Fort Wiflianil Town Plot to Shebandowan westward,, 45^ qiikts, for $406,904 : one for section 14, from Selkirk, on Red RiVer, t^ Gir6ss Lake eastWjUd, 77 miles, for $46?,95o. In the summer of 1876 he entered into contract No. 25 for section 25, froni Sunshine Creek, ;where No. 13 was terminated, to English River, 8o^mUes, and fbr |)a]lastin|^ and track-laying from Fort William to II.ngli.sh ^iv^jr, tti^ mUps, for $1,03^,061 j and in January, 1877, iforNo. 15, fi'oin Ctoss Lake to Kewatin,; 38!^ miles, inlcKiding ballasting and track-la^ng of No. 14 and No; 15, for $1,594,486. When asking the House to sahction'tKe contracts for sections 13 arid 14, he at th^ same time asked atithority to let sectidn 1 5, from Cross Lake to Kewatin, and some di^cu-ssion arose between the honorable gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) and the honorable the present Minister of Railways ((Sir Charles Tupper), who said : " The i^tatement made by tiie Premier (Mr. Madcenzie) affiMded one " ofthe thOst apt and forcible illustrations of the unwisdom of ttivdert;aking '* Ya> M^ toiitnlcts without any'iuich smrvey aA would put contnu^ots in a 68 *' position to know anything like the amount of work required to be per- " formed." Mr. Mackenzie ^id, in reply : " It so happened that a most " elaborate survey had been made of this j n' tion. It would be impossible to " have a more careful survey or closer examination than had been made in " these 37 nules. There had been no such survey on the Intercolonial " The honorable gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) now makes the disingenuous state- ment that he let the contracts upon the surveys which had been made by his predecessors, but he knows perfectly well that the line was not fixed upon to Kaministiqua in preference to the Nepigon until after he came to power, therefore there could have been uo close survey previously of the line which he adopted. The Fort William Town Plot had not previously been a make-weight in determining the terminus. Mr. Fleming has stated in his evidence before a Committee investigating the letting of the contracts, that when the line from Fort William to Shebandowan was put under con- tract they did not know where they were going, and it u.ined out, in fact, that they did not go to Shebandowan at all, and we have in evidence taken before that committee, of which the honorable gentleman was a member, that it was found impossible to get a practicable line to She- bandowan. When the cpntracts were let, Mr. Fleming, if he was a party > them at all, was acting under the direction of the honorable gentleman ; and I must say that I never heard anything on the floor of this House more unfair and ungenerous in its character than an attack the honorable gentle- man made on his chief engineer to-day, in the desperate hope of screening himself. It: was in evidence that the contracts were }et without the most elementary knowledge of the line; that they were let upon bills of work <:x)ntaining specific quantities, which were merely guess work, not ascer- tained by actual survey, but made up here in Ottawa ; that no survey^ what- ever had been made, not eveti a tnal line, on Section 14; that Section 13 had be^n let when the engineers did not even know where the line was to run; that the elaborate and exhaustive survey of Section 15 was a line run by eye And - conppjass^ only, by- Mr. Carxe, who says t;h?it no mortal man — upon the data he had thus obtained, the only data that the quantities were based upon— could have given an idea of the cost Mr. Fleming says that Section 13 was not thoroughly surveyed before letting; that "it was done hurriedly," and that he " represented to the Minister that the quantities ^ven had no pretensions to accuracy a^ to the final cost of the line, and were simply 9> means of comparing tenders." When the work was let, he tiays, "we didn't know where we were going to." TTie whole, thing, he tells us, was done hurriedly in the office at headquarters, simply upon the rough profile furnished by the Engineer ii> charge. The men who were taken up by the contractors to work on Section 13 were kept for some time idle, while the engineers were locating the line; and '.ne oun- tractors were paid by the Government for the lost time. The engineers arrived on Section 14 to make the survey, when the contractors, who had taken the work, went up to commence open^tions. As to Section 1 5 we have seeil that the survey was simply a trial line, and it turns out- that the sur- . V^s of Section 35 were m no better state for letting contracts.^ The results .are th4t the qustntities in some cases are eoormousfy kioreased^ and in oihetn suspiciously re^uctd ; that, in.idl cases, the cost of the four Sections, which was emi^ticalfy stated by tKe honorable glirtleman to be $44,500 a ^11 64 l-il" ! !« !!i' «!ii ' '■ i ': mile, or half that of the Intercolonial, is so enormousrly increased that it will reach $40,000 a mile ; that that increase took place under the honor- able gentleman's Administration, and m usi have been, or ought to have been, known to him whea he repeated his statement as to the f —,t; aj d it must have been knowr to him that he had no authority from Mr. Flemin^^ to make sucli a statement upon the hypothetical amounts of the contracts, ITiese remarka apply with directrt^^ss to sectionji 13, 14 and 25. As to sec- tion 1 5, the honorable gentleman claimed that elaborate and exhaustive sur- veys had been K.«»^de, but the honorable gentleman must have had, or ou^ht to have had, sorn* evidence of those surveys before he made the positive stateraerits in tht House in 1875. Where i« the record? "SVt have seem ih^'t nothing can be more fallacious. Important engagements, committing:: the coimtry to termini at Fort William and at Selkirk, the; former involving: a flagrant job and the la«,ter at lea.st a costly blunder that has cost the couhrryj as we are told by Mr. Carre, the Divisioi^i Engineer, $,j6o,ooo from fault of location alone, ;ind Contracts hurriedly let on imaginary quantities, were made by the hoaorabte member for Lambtcn^, who was tlie responsible Minister, and no one who knows the honorable gentleman will believe for ». moment s^\sX he was not wliolly res)[K)nsible for all those lettjriigs, ajcid that he was not or ought not to have been fully cognisant of the state '>f the sunreys upon a line- ti>at he Iwd himself fixed upon. 1 1 \H' 6f r . avail wha.tever for thiat honor- able gentleman to attack his chief cnt^in^r f«r errors or worse for which I believe tihe cx»untlry will justly hold hitn einttirely responsible. In contract 13, taken at $406,494, but part of the work was done, but in that Hhe ratio of.cost w.aS tx>n.*jiderably excjeeded.''' Contract 14 was for $402,950 J the work cKecuttKl undter ;k amouiiteti to |7«»,364, Contra » 25 was for $1,037, ,061 >' ^"^^ ^^"'"'^ executed under it amotmted to $i,36.i»,»>39. Con- tract 55 wai? for $£,^94,085; the estimatai cost up to January, 1879, ^^s- 4^2,525,000. In all these cases cej^fiiiiii quantities stated on the contracts were enon'wously iwcreaseti In contract i^, for instaritw, the earth excavation at 33 cents a yard wys fncreased fmm one rnilliOT to one million nine hfuidrnd and mty thb\isand ccilvk yai-ds. In cOft tract 15 the earth excavation was increased from 8o„ooc yarda at 37 c«nts a yanl to one mil- lion six hundi-ed. and fifty-mevert lihciisand yards, and it is sitid that there will be a further increase of on^ ' million thtinn hiindrefi thousand yards. lliere was a radkuil change in the plan of e^jiecuiing section ig, dispensing with trestle Wfi»'k and substituting rock and earth. Tlris change took place in the sitiiarijer of 1878. A" attMK^nt was made to lead the Committee to believe tliat the change was not isrtftdc! ♦^iipoti Mr. Rowan's return from Ottawa at that time, te'^the evjdftntce in tJve Committees of the House ;uiu Senate prov-j btlien .je. Thent; had httn three ueits of tenders jMrcpared and advertised for oji Sec- tion 15, The finial advertisement .waj» laade for September., J 876. The Elan was to coastrjict the fillingl; of the hollows wit:. Uestievfork-— to ave no (;!arth-»'/ork except the gripping of the rocks. Strange to .say, this would involve the use upon X\\t line of a stretch of nearly iifteeii mT/es of timber of «. siae that the coimtrj could not furnish, Wien ihc- letti'ags were .mad*;, aud, in ({act, when iJic tenders were advertise(i for, it will i'/e found 65 that Mr, Fleming was not in Canada. Mr. Marcus Smith, Acting Chief Engineer, was in tiie West, and he telegraphed the hon. mengiber for Lamb- ton from Winnipeg, after the bids \yere opened, if thjp contract had ppt ; beqn, let, to wait tilf his return^ . Thjs, how^vei, did not ^^uit the hon. g^- Ueuufi. The tenders, were receive^— t)yenty-Qni^ of thenvr—that oi^ A. !!P. Macdbn^d fit. Co., for ,$:,443,X75, was the lowest. Thjev were notified to undertake the wprk, ^d arrajUgproei?ts w^re made by thetr^for executing the coritmct and, furuis|bip(g the security ; but they heard,, ?vhi)^ their arrange- ment? were pending, that two years' extension of timejTojr finishing contract ,14 had been given. Their contract included laying track, oyer that section, and its completion \yithih the time first agrcjea on was necessary in order to enable Macdonalc & Co. to get in supplies to Section 15. The coh- trletors fot Section 14 were Sifton, Ward & Co., of Petrolia — staunch ., friends of the hon gentienian-~and I hav^e good K.»son to believe that the «?ext«nsion was made when it was (bund tl»t the bid of A. P. MacdonaJd '&r C6. was the successful one. ' Mr. Mackenzie — No such thing. M.T. VujM^—t do not ficcept the hon. gentleman's ** no such thing," for , I rather think; that, if the matter came to the teji, that I could, prove it. Mr. Mackenzie — Well, prove it. Mr. PorMft— Messts, A P. Macdonald & Co. contracted under the ;J^%riprpssi6n tbatlfic- Gbvettim^it #ot|ld;hoId Sifttm; Wi'rtl" « Co. to the *' completipq of ^ecoiitr'ict, withm' the spjeciiiei^.' time, Th^y ! Wr6te to the Dep^rMnent^taiing whft they Had heard, ^d said tfe.t tfee pripes at wlv'^.h the' had tendered; were based upon the supposition thftt Sifton^ Ward&.po.'s contMcfi would be finished in tinie to enable 'Maicdonaid'64 Co. to \&y^ithe track over Sc^ction 14 by August, 1877. They concltide by asiking if Silch Ian exiiensiol had been granted, and say : "It would be imprudent for us to i'^"' er.ev' 1^0 ihie C0ntra6^ «r«;re piit ^ jfK>^sej$sib*y of the advin- ^* tage^ wlijcii the specifications and forrnsi of tendef, ied us to believe ai^d " base v>ur calculations upon." What was the answer to thsjt reasonable request ? We must bear in mind that this tender of A. P. Maicdonald & Co. was that of a perfectly responsible firm, whose contract anybbdy, acting in his own private interest or having the public interest solely at hear., Would have been anxious to secure. The Government ga'e no satisfactory explanation whatever. Mr. Braun briefly reqiiests tbera to execute the contract immediately. Messrs. A. P. Macdonald & Co. reply ;— MoxTBBAt, 16th October, 1876. 81R, — In reply to you<- communicntion of the I4th instant, we beg to Htaie that we cannot «nttT into contract lor Sections 14 and 1.5 fsnadian Pacific Railway, on account; «>f reosons Rteted in our letter of the 1.1th instant. We tborefore most respectfally decline to sign naid contract, bnt beg to add that if ihe Minister of Public Works should see At to change his decision we would most gladly enti^r into contract. We have the honor to be, Sir, Your obedient ttervante, (Signed,) A. P. MACDONALD, F. B-. AUM, E»q.. " ROBEKT KANE. Secretary Public V-'orki't Department, Ottawa. 6 w M iton & Co. were tha ne bidders ' the amount of their teiQdt:w;^$x,540,cgo, nearly a hundred thousand dollars more, it must be noticed than that of A. P. Macdonaid & Co., whose bid was waxned off. The lext x^rd Was to tliem. Mr. Chariton seems to have been the iiegociat9i, attd he spent several week^ in ofifering securities of different kuids for the fiilfilment. It would not be imfairto say, to dbtain delay, that for some purpose or other, seemed to be his Chief object. While an active corresjpondence k going on between him and the Department, another actor suddenly appears, no other th^n Mr. Joseph Whitehead, whose char- acteristic letter to the honorable member for Lambton I will give in full : — O'CTAVA, Novismbdr 28th, 1876.^ DiabSih, — It is the genemt impr^Mrioo -outride that yon «re going to give the coninict, SecUua is, to Charitoa it Co.,«aid he i» goiigtotam the cootraot over into the hands of some Americans from New York, and .ccotding to the feeling, you are going to make a great miebike if you allow aucfa a thing to be done, as it is well known that Chariton says that be never intended (o put a spade into the contract, Section 15 ; he only want? to make aoihe mosey oat of it, the same way he did oat of the Ofenville Canal, v/ben he sold out to Cooke h Jones, and got six thousand idoUara. Now, if^you will give the contnwt. Section 15, to Sutton 4 Tnompson'a tender, ji wilA guax«nt«e that the gnuUng, track-laying and ballasting shall be done and coui- ipleted ; me engine into Section IS by the month of August next ; and further, the >Wbole of Section 15 8h^.U be flnished, completed; by the nil 187% and for evtry day •dver and above, if any, yott «bsil hotfe the beM of security that the Government shall be paid five hundred dollars pet day for every day over and above the tWo dates •named above, and thi» ia the only way to put some life into the Pacific Railway, w vlhere has been u« life ifi it yet. , Now, 1 hope you will pardon me for taking the liberty of writing you thii note, f'aa I have.«iQ other object in riew than to let you know the fi.'eling outside, as you {, must admit .that Sutton and Thompson's tender is not att extravagaiit one, only I iAtnow vfhat I have said in this note can be done. I remain, Tour obedient servant, IHonorable 4MUWiiDSB Macxosii. (Signed,) JOSEPH WHITEHEAD. The bidders next on the list were the firm recommended by Mr. Whitehead ; Sutton Sc Thomson, of Brantford, Ontario, whose bid was $1,594,085; or, as stated by Mr. Mackenzie in a memorandum which I shall give $1,594,155, a trifle of $150,980 over that of A. P. Macdonaid & Co. Not long after Mr. Whitehead's letter was written, the imready Mr. Charlton seems to have beconie discouraged. He writes as follows : — '• I havetmet with so many unfortunate difficulties in procuring security for sc " large a sum, so as to satisfy the demands of the GovernmtiUt, and hare been 60 « worried toid diilieartenod by the ditHcuIties of the pottition in which I foirad my- « self, and consequent failing health, that I am reluctantly obliged to say that I can- " not now undertake en serious an enterprise, more especially as all the most experi- "enced men whose advice and assintHnce I l^ave asked, have convinced me and my " friends thai the work cannot satisfactorily be performed for the price tendered for." I beg, therefire, to ask that the Honorable the Minister of Public Works will "allow me to withdraw my tinder," and will p^easo to return to Mr. Beard, of Brook- lyn, who propoAed to join in the work, uis depoHit : and alHo return to me the papers I which I deposited as given to, make up the balanc; of th" st^curiiy required. . (^ SI for Bc teen «o ndmy- I can- experi- nd my Isd for." B vrill Brook- papers A'nd in a final agony of despair^ he soon aflerwardis sends the following telegram : — MoHTBXAL TsusattAra Cowtaitt, 27th Daeamber, 1876. (By TeUgraph frem MofUrtal.) F. BBiUH, Pttbllc Works Department — Diisseiuiioa from within, added to exitaordinalry pre»ture /ror/i without, has left no alternative but withdrawal. (Signed) E. J. CHARLTON. Mr. Martin seems not to have been then aware of Mr. Charlton's 'dilemma and i*s unhappy consequences, but on learning that there had been a failure to furnish the security on the part of Mr. Charlton, he writes ^as follows, two days after the date of the mbtimful but suggestive telegram : Ottawa, 29tb December, 1876. SiB, — i{«-v'ection 13, Canadian Pacific Railway, I have just learned with much 4urpri8e through your Department that B. J. OharltoB has withdrawn from our joint tendeir to build said Section 15, Canada Pacific Railwagr. His withdrawal was with, oat my knowledge or consent. I am prepared to deposit th« security required by the Qoveniment, and am pre- pared to perfonn t^ work xneutioned in or contemplated by said tender. An Tbat thia ftno Areprept^red to make the necesaary five per cent, cash deposit, and propose to associate wi^ Id) emselves Mr. Jq^eph Whitehead, contractor, «f Clinton, Ontario. v The undersigned, therefore, recommends that the, te^deir of Ji^^ssnw Button ^ ^Thompson be accepted, and that thcjr be. amoved toasfocjate Mr, Whitehead with themselves accordingly. *, " !j ' Bespec^^ii^iy submitted. (Signed) A. MACKENZIE, Minuter PitbUe Workt. i.'fi'^kW 3rhus it will beseen th^t oi) the day after Mairtia pffered to put up the security, and Uirpe days after Charlton witjidriew in such moving tern^, the contract w^ ftWjarded to Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, and, strange to , s^y, the disinterested Mr. Whitehead consented to put a little moi. life into i,, tie Pacific It^lwj^y by becpmr:jj finit ^ p^rtJ>er nomirt^lly of that finn, and lastly by taking die whole woik himself. It will be observed that the memorandum of Mr. Mackenzie, which I read a few moments ago as a reason foi* giving the contract to Sutton & Tl.o.npeoh, states that A. P. Macdo^a,ld^ Cb." and MaMh & ChatI ton have been unable to furnish the , njecessaiy sj^^ri^y. As to A. P. Macdon^ld 5c Co., we have seen that there was no lack of abiiity»,but that they w^rie ajpparently forced off in ai;iother way. There was no good ground whatever for this assertion ^ respected Martin & Charlton, for Mr. Martin, in his letter just quoted, distincdy pro- posed to furnish ample security, and protested against the contract being ta^en a)v^y jprom him. Every contractor has a right to make as good a bargain as he can, of course, and I do not intend in anything I have said or shall say, to make any charge against Mr. , Whitehead^ or tq blame him in any way. In the tender of Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, the timber was taken at prices so loWy and the quantity required was so enormous, that it , would have been absolutely impossible to deliver it. It could not be had in thft country, nor was it to be found nearer than the head waters of the I Mississippi, and I say that the Minister Of Public Works, when he adopted a radical change in the plan of construction of the section, which he seems to have decided upon just before the tenders were advertised for, and in the absence of his Chief Engineers, should have ascertained that the timber could be found in the ::«eignborhood of the work, and I want the House and the country to understand that he was responsible for the letting, for the principle adopted in the plan of construction, and he does not pretend that it was decided upon when Mr. FiCming was m Canada, or that the letting was under his advice. Mr. Whitehead had not long been at work on his contract when Mr. Rowan, the resident En^neer, recommended that the work should be radically changed by substituting rock and eaith embankment for trestle work. His letter recommending the change stated that the trestle work was perishable and liable to take fire. I suppose most men could have known, without a professional opinion, that wood was a tsubstance that would decay iii process of time and . might perhaps take fire if exposed to ignition; but Mr. Rowan was careful not to state that the trestle-work timber could not be obtained H^ &9 liUHIMil in the country. Anyone could see the trestle-work plan was a dangerous and imprudent d out all efforts to establish factories in the re- public, but the imposition of 25 per cent, duty on foreign cottono had the effect in a few yearn not only of building mannftictories, but led to the production of an article a in I > \ t* rfj '.V- K I. 72 b* Ukf inf^(nM41ty;u4i tower in |^rio««luni[ th« Admioaos rec«ired firom tii« Miialk b«ifoni4beboimlMlaMil«iiirer9,Ntftbl|aJM^ . i :i>t . MlAJSCafflite UfldtedStatef wo^ ^xpoi:^ ne»f I7 10 percent, ot^eij- whole c^t- , u^e^^qtlVe H^tf #ii ii^l^, irUl ttii^tihctMec i»^ ^lihlMd, ittd irW ^ftofi^f^'tlitf^th^ of IMii ihU Mo^ijlht 4xmi seir6i»t tfOlUm « too^ AiKt It !■ now fold ttkte^OlWfBdtkhltoB WW ever ofltored for in that iM^ , j M The flUppIng Jnteieatt of itihe United, 8t»t«i w«« one of the mo«t eignal illiutnv* ; tioiM of the benefit of a protective policy that jould be produced." Thit is the statement of a gentletnah who has had a largfe commercial j exjperienCe and wh0se utterance^ are entitled to great consideration when' deaKnig With s^stic^ only— t mean the rtiember for North "Norfolk, Mr. Charlton, liiat mras a portion of his speech dfelivered in this House four years ago, as I lihd it in th6 official record. Then, sir, he ably and judiciously advocated Prbtection, upon whi6h he spoke with much force and sincerity. The Right Hdnourable the Premier has been greatly strengthened by the oijj^an of the Liberal party in Toronto, in his late estimates of the value of oiir North Western Uhds. That pkpei'hj^ given no uncertain sound with re^^ tb thdlltrid^ whith we hope td sell to defray the cost of comstrticting the railwiEiy and with regard to tihe ^eat promise and value of the country which it will develop. I beheve that no statement of the First Miilister exa^lierat^ the vdue of our great domain, portions of which will be purchased by capitalists for profitable inv itment and ciiltivation, ak Well as by our own people and settlers ger .ally seeking cbrbfbrtable homes. I believe the menacinja; labour question ^n the United Kiiigdom will compel its ^tatesimeh to face it, and consider the best method oi Ssposihg of me dhormidus population depending on manufactures for support, that is int^reasing in a far greater ratio than the food supply can be inbreased. In that direction we offer to England a priceless boon, which no other country can offer, a region and soil best adapted to the develop- ment of the Anglo-Saxon race — a country possessing the laws, traditions and loyalty of that race, and practically as near to England as Land's End was to Glasgow 40 years ago. We have a new world to place at the disposal of the over crowded mother country, and British statesmen will soon be f(M'ced to turn their attention to some system of co-operation with this Dominion for the development of the soil of that new world. The member for West Durham speaks of the preference of the Teutonic and Irish races for the United States, doubtless with some | truth, but we have large and flourishing settlements of Irishmen,' Scotchmen and Englishmen, and of races from the North of; Europe, too, with every prospect of their extensive increase. Besides, the sentiment of loyalty, overlooked or excluded by honor- able gentlemen opposite-, will attract to our territory, through preference and sympathy, multitudes of the British people. In respect to our financial policy, so virulently attacked by the honor- able member for West Durham, I do not believe the present Government desire to emulate the reckless expenditure of their predecessors, or continue building costly works while incurring growing deficits. I believe they will take a difTerent course^ so different that the country will appreciate at its fullest value the contrasted policy of the late and present Administrations in this ^■■■■Il 78 respect. I believe that this discussion was artfully contrived to alarm the timid and deceive the unwar}' and ignorant ; but I venture to predict it will fail of its object, and that the gentlemen, compelled from their position to sustain Ihfc^ raciflutloni, will find ttev meet with no Byinp«tl\y else- where, and akt diey have jiluiiged still deeper iiito that abyss from which I believe there is no political resurrection. I'ffil m wr 'jt SPEEOH OF MB. THOMAS WHITE, M-F.^ CARDWELL. The following is the report of the speech delivered by the member for Cardwell on Tuesday, on the Pacific Railway debate : — Mr. White (Cardwell) was received with cheers. He said : — Mr. Speaker, — It is impossible to over-estimate the importance of the subject which has, for the last three or four days, been engaging *' attention of this House. It is difficult to imagine any question more fra ^'ht with inter- est for, or more affecting the future well-being of the Dominion than that presented to us for solution. It assumes two phases, to my mind, namely^ that viewed from the standpoint of the national obligation, and that from the standpoint of the material interest of this Dominion. The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake), in relation to the first view of the question, referred to what had been said by the honorable the Minister of Railways as a " delving into antiquities." That honorable gentleman, as a lawyer, knows this, that all our rights depend upon a delving into antiqui- ties. If he has any legal question in dispute between man and man, he de- termines it by delving into antiquities ; and we have to do the same thing in questions arising between communities, or individuals, or parts of com- munities. It seems to me that it did not come well from the honorable member, for West Durham, to sneer at the honorable the Minister of Rail- ways because he referred to the past history of this question, and to describe that reference as a " delving into antiquities." OUR DUTY TO BRITISH COLUMBIA. Notwithstanding that sneer, I shall, with the permission of the House, take the liberty of delving into the antiquities of this question, with regard to the relations between the Dominion and the Province of British Columbia, the duty we owe to the Province, and the obligation imposed upon us to per- form the terms entered into with that Province. It is not necessary to refer to the earlier history of the railway. It is well known to those gentlemen who have any knowledge of the circumstances in connection with the con- struction of the Pacific Railway, that it was originally by no means a party question, that both parties were in favor of its construction ; and honorable members who are in the habit of studying what has taken place will remem- ber that the strongest language was used by the leading organ of honorable gentlemen opposite in denunciation of those who forgot that the construc- tion of the Pacific Railway from ocean to ocean was a duty, to neglect which would inflict upon us the liability of being accused of want of patriot- ism, and as being hostile to British connection. (Hear, hear.) It was not a question whether we should build the Pacific Railway, that was urged upon us by the leaders of both parties. But it was the manner in which it was to be built, the time it should take to build it. I'hat became a ques- tion engaging the attention of Parliament, and upon that a division took place between the two political parties in this country. When British Co- lumbia was incorporated in the Dominion we incurred the responsibility of building the railway, commence it within two years at each end, and under- takii^ to complete it within ten years. The Government of that time, un- det the instructions of this House, let thie contract in accordance with the determination arrived at, that the road should be built by a private com- pany, aided by a subsidy of money and a subsidy of land ; and if that com- pany had succeeded, I think it would have been a great advantage to this Dominion. Who would not now gladly give fifty miUion acres of land and $30,000,000 to sec that railway built from ocean to ocean? (Hear, hear.) THE EARLY HISTORY OF THE RAILWAY. But that scheme failed. I am not going to discuss the causes of that failure, which were many. Sir Hugh Allan, who obtained, along with his associates, a charter for his company, was, as I think, unfortunately mived up with other railway enterprises, which brought against him tfce strong hostility of the most powerful Canadian railway corporation in London. He proposed not only to build a railway across the continent, but a raihvay from Quebec to Ottawa, to be continued to the Sault Ste. Mary, with a branch to To- roptp, and then a^in by the Great Western to go farther West, and thus secure competition with the Graricl Trunk. As a consequence of that scheme, he met, in London, with the bitter hostility of the Grand Trunk directors and shareholders, who did everything they could to prevent his success. This strong corporation, with all the influence it had in I^ndon, wks aided by circumstances on this side of the water. I am not going to say the honorable gentlemen opposite were not justified in endeavoring to turn out the Conservative Government of that day ; but, I thmk, looking back to the past, that every one will admit it would have been the more patriotic course, considering the interests this country had at stake, and that those honorable gentlemen had pressed strongly the construction of this railway, had they held their hand, and not aided, by a political crisis at the moment, those on the other side of the Atlantic, who were doing their best to defeat the enterprise. I believe that, in spite of the opposition of the Grand Trunk in England, Sit Hugh Allan would have succeeded, and that we should have had enormous sums of British capital expended here for the construction of the road had that opposition not been aided by the po- litical crisis here. The road would thus have been built by a powerful company, whose interest it would be to aid the settlement of the country, and which, through its President, controlled a magnificent line of steam- ships — and which had, spread over the United Kingdom, 1,200 agents, passenger brokers, every one of whom would have been an emigration agent for this country, and would have aided in filling up our Northwest territory. (Hear, hear.) But the Allan Company failed ; the Government •f that day was defeated, and honorable gentlemen opposite took office. THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE REFORM GOVERNMENT. If the Statements we have heard since this debate commenced are to be 4 •^■ >'' ■'n I M 7« accepted, I think we may fairiy sav it was open to the late Oovenrntetlt, had they chosen, to have said to British CoKimbia: — "We cannot fuWI the - bar'gain made, and therefore must ask you to release us, and we will build 1 the railway as rapidly as we can, Consistently with our financial position,'^'! (Hear, hear.) ' They did not take that course. On Ine contWiry, they recog-<' nized by thdr first act the obligation of the Dominibn to construct the raS- ^ way, and that, in spite of the fact thkt they, according to their oVrn state- • men>;, made then and frequently since, were not bound to go on with the^* work except as the finances of the Dominion would permit. In a report of ' the Committee ofthe Privy Council, dated 8th July, 1874, on the mi.Hsion of Mr. Walkem to England, and a cable message received fVom the Colonial Secretary— a report in which the Roman hand of the member for Lambton is visible in every line — we find this statement as to the position in which the bargain stood : — << Mr. Trufiih, the delegate of the Britiab Columbia QoTemmentt preaent in Ottawa during the discassiona on the terms of anion, espresaed hinuelf as follows at a public meeting, in order to reaaaure thoee who were apprehenaire of the convey* aacea of ao rash an aasumption of auch aerioua obligationa : — " ■ When he came to Ottawa with hla co-deltogatea laat year, they entered into a computation with the Prix? Council aa to the coat and time it would take to build the line, and they came to the concloaion that it ooold be bailfc on the terms proposed in ten years. If they badaaid twelve or eighteen yeara, that time wpuld have been aocepted with equal readineas, an aU th^t wm undoratood was that the line ahould b« built aa aoon aa poaaible. British Columbia had entered into a partnurahip with Canada, and they were united to conatriict certain public woriu. But before one would protest againat anything by which it should be nnderatood that the Oovern* ment were to borrow one hundred mtlliona of dollars, or to tax the people of Canada.') and British Columbia to carry ont thoee works within a certain time (loud cheers) he had been accuaed of having made a very Jewish bargain, but not even Shylock would have demanded hia pound of fleah if it had to be out from hia own body (Laughter and cheera.)" These ezpreaaiona ahow very clearly that the terms agreed to were directory r.tther than mandatory, and were interpreted by circumstances, the eaaence of the engagement Iwlng auch diligence as was consiatent with moderate expenditure and no increase in the then rate of taxation." Then, again, in another report of Council, dated 23rd July, the honorable gentleman more tersely and more emphatically stated the same fact. He said: — <' It was distinctly understood by the British Columbia delegation at the time the terms of union were agreed upon, that the taxation of the country was not to be increased on account of this work beyond the mte then existing." • Now, it was with that understanding of the agreement that the late Premier entered into the negotiations with which we have now to deal. He might then have said' to British Columbia — we cannot pretend to build this railway at present, but will do what we can to carry it across the Continent and meet you at the earliest possible moment consistently with the proper ex- penditure of the public money, and you must depend on our good will and good faith. And he might the more readily have said this in view of the position of the finances at that time. The Finance Minister had just im-' posed $3,000,000 additional taxation, so that when he sent his delegate to British Columbia and entered into the Carnarvon Terms, he had actually increased the burdens of the country by upwards of $3,000,000. (Hear, / Ha mSmm t hear.) He didinot take that course. He sent a delegate, Mi. Edgar, to 'the British Cohimbia Government and made it an offer, without any pres- 'fstire, in accordance with his own conception of the obligation of this coun- 'tiij' jtowards Briti^ Columbia. I do not propose to refer to the incidents of that mifsipn, ^ | wish to detain t,he |Iouse not a momei^t longer than is possible. In the report of the Committee of tne Privy Coimcil. to which I have already refei.ed, the proposals made by the member for Lambton,. of ' 'his own motion, are thus succinctly stated :— . k Vj MThe propositioDH ma(l« by Mr. Edgar involved an immediate heavy expeodituro I In British Cpinnabia not contemplated by the termi itf' union, nani'ely, the con»truutIon ot k railway on' Vancouver's Island from the port of Esquimault to Nanuirao, aa com- pensation to the most populouH part of the Province for the requirement of a longer tXtaofor completing the linelqfthe mainlvind. The proposals also embraced an obligation to construct a road or trail and telegraph line acroHH the continent at once, unil an expenditure of not lest than a million and a half within the Province annually on the rail- ' waf/ teorka oit tn iiAint£«D, Irr^specfivt) of the amountn which might be spent eaat of the Rocky Mountains, being a' 'half more than' the entire sum British Columbia demanded in the first instance a« the annual expenditure on the whole road.' THE CARNARVON TERMS. Ttto^ Loiti Carnarvon understood these propositions of the Government , i^y be infi^r^^4 ^^^ ^^^ despatch which he himself sent out, dated the i6th - 4kUgust, 1874,; anfi as it is important to emphasize distinctly the voluntary offers which were maide by those honorable gentlemen when they were re- sponsible for the government of this country, it is well to have Lord Car- harvon's own words as giving his understanding of those proposals: — <' The proposals made hr Mr. Edgar, on behalf of the Oanadian Oovernment, to the Provincial Qovernnent o«Britiefa Columbia may be stated as follows ■.-» "1. To commence at once, and finish as eoon a^ possible, a railway flrom Esqui- . ..(inault to Nanaimo. spare no expense in settling as speedily as possible the line to be taken by rVhe railway oh the mainland. * 8. To make at once a waggon road and line of telegraph along the whole length of the railiray in British Columbia, and to continue the telegraph across the continent. ** 4. The moment the turvri/t and road on the mainland are completed, to tpend a minimum amount qA $1,500,000 annually upon the construction of the railway within the province. Lord Carnarvon suggested two amendments to these terms. He suggested first that the annual expenditure should be two million dollars instead of one million and a half; and he suggested, secondly, that the road should be completed before 1890. The Government accepted the first of these pro- positions in these words, which I think I may fairly assume are the words of the honorable member for Lambton : — <> In regard to the second proposal, the committee recommend that Lord Carnarvon bo informed {\i it be found impossible to obtain a settlemt^nt of the quesMon by the acceptance of the former offer) that the Oovernment will consent that, after the completion of the surveys, the average annual minimum expenditure on the mainland shall be two millions." Then as to the second, or time limit, which I^rd Carnarvon desired to impose, the honorable member for Lambton said : — '* There can be no doubt that it would be an extremely diiBc ult task to obtain the sanction of the Canadian Parliament to any specific bargain as to time, considering the consequences which have already resulted from the unwise adoption of a limited i r»; p^tiod in tJbo k'.m« of imlon (or th'!? compl^tiov of, ao VMt »ti nvid«ttakiag, the cximt •of whk'h max4 ntic,fjm»>tily 'ia^ vmry «iBBp«rfectlf c-ndenitc another Hmitwtiaa of time ; hut if It he found a\»s>- SateJiy nwcmtaf to *i3«dJoti«, tt vlfcl^e mtf;!^ (a f/iiatch, ofthe 17th September, and I read that u'ith a vkw of compleiring ihh part o(' ray statement. These were the agreements that were nwide by Imd Camarvor< and accepted by the Government of that day; — I. ThMi the milwAj from S«q\iimwA\% to NaoAimo shaU be comtnoQcoti m 4pon Jts iHmihl« and cumplviad with nil pmclicAS do8j(K«tcb. , . " 2. Thflt ihe Sareeye dj it wtsre not itapossiblo, to preeicrite strictly any minimum of the time or expenditurii nith aet^Ki to work of »o unccrtftla « nature, bui happily, it i« equally .'%,^(mfb'le for mt (0 douit that your GovfrniMnt unit loyally rfe itt Um* in ewry way to ■MceUraU thf compieHan (^ a duty l^* freely ro the apedal value to the Iirov'oce of tha uadarf-iftkiRg to (i"omplet4 th*«« two wicrrkn ; but after conBidt-ring nrhftt hsM boen Mtid, I (mh of (Aj^inion thnt they should. both,b« prooa«>ded with at onco, i» ind«t)d it* »usgoety your Mi^niatHCS." ^ It is wwth v/hile remarkmg that these two works* the waggon road and the telegraph line, were not asked for by British Columbia, but, on the contrary, British Columbia mtimated that they were ufMtless, and that she did not desim them ; but they were forced upon her ^nd forced upon Lord Carnarvon by the honorable gentJernen opposite when they occupied seats on this side of the House : — "4. That $2.00,000 a yoar and not »»'., 500,00 shall be the mtiiimum oxponditnro on milway works within '-he provIuce/rdf« ifu) mi«'U whinh ikit turvtys are nuffieienily com- plf.ied (o TMiMe ihat amount to he exjended on cmtiruction. Id naming thin amount, I iiu'Jr^tand that, it bdng nliko t^b iaterttHt und the wish of the Dominion Govern- i ont ♦/.) iior" on with all spoed thu Moutpiotiou <»f the wcrkH now to be undertaken, e not very dlntant whoii a ooptinuous line 0' milway through (lanadiim tenitory vitl do praeal by the honorable member for West Durham (Mr. niake) the other evening to the honorable gentlemen from the Province of Quebec, and we had a suggestion from him that this scheme of the Government, this disposition to expend money only on the western end to the exclusion of that portion north of I>ake Superior, was in fact an attack upon tht interests of the Province of Quebec. But here we find in this arniiigement, which was made by the honorable gentlcmer -opposite when they occupied seats on this side of the House, a positive agreement to expend at least two millions, aud as much more us they possibly could, every year in British Columbia upon the mainland ; and that the line north of Lake SufXirior should be postponed indefinitely, abandoned, in fact, so far as any present indication to construct it was concerned. (Cheers.) Now, here are the words in vrhich the Privy Council accepted those terms. The report is xiated i8th December, 1874 :— ; <«The minute of Council of September 1 7th contuinad « Htatement of reMons rtriiowiing why sumo of theae modiAcations gbould not be presHod, but the Guvemoiont ftctuit^' the tpirit qf any parliamentary reaolutioni or the letter qfany enaeiment." So that the very reason for the offer to expend two millions a year at 'east in Bnti.sh Columbia after the surveys were completeerfidy of Canadian public men. The comparison will certainly not be calculated to raise us in the estimation of British statesmen. Lord Carnarvon accepted in the spirit in which they were given the thanks awarded him, and said, on tl>e 4th of January : — <* It has been with great pleasuru that I have received this expression of thoir oj^ioion. 1 sincerely rejoice to bavu been the means of briugiug to a sati.>tfu( tory « conclusion a qm-stion of 30 much difficulty, of nmoving, as I trust, all ground of 80 fiitare mirianderftanding Imtween the Province of British Columbia and the Dominion, and of than contribotine; towardfl the nJUniate oompietiuD of a public work in which th^y, and indeed the whole Empire, a.-e interested.' THE PERFinV OF THt 1 ATK OOVERNMBNT. The honorable member for West Durham (J^Ir. Blake) in his speech, stated that within ^,few mot)ths after this correspondence had, token place, si^er this interchange of compliments with Lord Carnarvon, he entered the Gov- ernment uj>oii the (iistinci understanding that th^se t^rms were to be abaii- doned. 1 think too much of him and of the member for L^mbton to believe that any such compact could have been made. It is true that he contends that the defeat of the Esquimault and Nan^mo Railway destroyed the Carnarvon terms. And he contends that the offer of $750,000 was to be regarded as a compensation for the abandonment of those terms. It was nothing of the kind. The Esquimault and Nanaimo Railway was promised in excess of the terms of union, and as compensation for the non-fulfilment of the condi- tion to build the mai^i line by i88i. When the bill providing for the build- irigpf this railway was defeated jli tlie Seriate, the duty of the Government was to provide a substitute for the compensation for the delay oh the main- land. ( Hear, hear. ) They offered that compensation in the form of a mpi^ey grant of $750,000, that being in fact, as stated by the member for lambton (Mr. Mackenzie), the sum which he proposed to give as a subsidy to a pri- vate company to build the island railway. This offer, therefore, so far from being an abandonment of the Carnarvon terms, was a confirmation of them, an admission of their binding character, a loing, in fact, in another form, precisely what was agreed to be done in those ten»u. (Hear, hear.) THE QUESTION OF INCREASED TAXATION. But, Mr Speaker, we are told that we ought not to go on with the road becaupe thexe is an obligation on the Government not to ^0 on if it will in- volve increased taxation. Whatever force there may be in that argument, members of thp late Government have deprived themselves of the right to use it. The late iFirst Minister, when he entered into the f'amarvon terms, when he made the terms with British Columbia, actually appropriated $3,000,000 of additional taxation to enable him to carry out those terms. Here is the statement made by the honorable member for J^mbton (Mr. Mackenzie) in the minute of Council of the 23rd July, 1879, sent to England for the information of the Imperial Government on this question. He said : — '• So anxionK, however, were the pr^Ront Government to removb any possible caune of complaint, that thoy did take means to 'increase the taxation very materially in order to placf theinselvts in a position <• make arrangf)iientt/or the. prontCHtion o/the initial an;l dijffifuh portions qf the line at soon a» if wan postibU (o do no ; and, at the same time, a special confidential agent whb deptited to British Columliiii for the express pnrposi) of oonfcrringf with the Uovurnment of that Province, and to endeavor to arrive at some undt-rstHiiding aK to a cotirNn to ha purxiu.''. which could ha aatisfactor' to BritiHh Columbia ami meet the circuuiHtancuH of the Dumiaicn. " That was the statement made to the Imperial Government on the respon- sibility of honorable gentlemen opj^osite ; that when they sent their agent to fititish Columbia they sent him armed with the fact that $3,ooo,ooc had saem m CAQBe illy in initi'it time, |nrpoBO rive at iov to ispon- lent to been appropriated to the carrying out of terms to be agreed upon in refer- ence to thi« railway ; md yet honorable gentlemen now say that we must dishonor ourselves, because the carrying out of the terms, which they made a show of carrying out by the infliction of $3,000,000 increased taxation, would involve a very much smaller increased biu"den on the people. But we have another report. In order to enable the Government to fulfil the terms, and so that no excuse might be allowed for supposing that they were imwiliing to carry them out, we find them stating in another report of the Privy Council on the 8th of July, that they tad raised the average rate of taxation 15 per cent. The actual statement thus made is as follows : — " In order to enable the Oovemment to carry out the propoaals, tehieh it wot hoped the Britieh Columbia Oovemment would have accepted, the av«r*ge rate of taxation was raiaod at the last seMion about flftcen per cent., And the excise datiea on tptrita and 'nba«co a correHtKiiiding rate, both involving additional taxation exceeding three millions of doilara on the trannactions of the year." • (Cheers.) That is a statement made by the authority of the Government that this increased taxation was made expressly to enable them to carr) out these Carnarvon terms ; and yet we have from these very gentlemen, now, an appeal to the country to oppose the policy of the presemt Government in the direction of carrying out those terms, on the ground that it may increase the taxation of the country, and that in spite of the fact that the proix)sals of the Government will not involve anythmg like so lai^ a burden. MR. MACKENZIE'S RECOGNITION OF THE OBLIGATIONS OF THE GOVERimKNT. The honorable gentlemen, as I shall be able to establish, has never, until this year gone back upon that record. Session after session we have had the statement of the honorable member for Lambton that he recognized the obligation resting upon him to carry out these Carnarvon terras. (Hear, hear.) Every session we have had his assurance to that effect I^ mc read two or three such assurances given by him, when submitting his yearly statements to the House. I;i his speech in submitting the Pacific Railway ix)licy in 1876, he ^"6 (and at this time the honorable member for West Durham was a member of the Government, and is therefore responsible for every word uttered) : — << We have felt from the firat that while tt was utterly impoiwible to implement to the k'tter the (>nf);agemcnt8 ent«Tt>d into by our predecessorn, the good faith '«>t«ini>d to be within their )M>wer and muHt couducive to the welfore uf the whole lA^miniou as well as to ttotiafyalt reasonable men in British Columbia, which province ImmI fancied itaelf entitled to complain of apparent want of food fdith in carrying out these obligation><." " Let mci say, so far as the work itself is concerned, that I have always been an advocate of tho oonstructioD of a railuny acroHS the continent, but I have never believed that it was < thin our meauH (o do it in anything like tbu period of time within which the honorable gentleman bound Parliament and the country." That is by 1881. After an elaborate statement of surveys, and a sugpf^tron of the advantages, of ilic Fine River Pas.^, he said ; — '< But this route is open tu the objection that if we wore to decide upon lurve; ' >;< 62 th*t country, U wmld he praetiealljf putling ^ the conMruetion /or tome i»me longer than would be neeeuary bjf adopting the line ve have already turveyed. If British ColumbU were to Aot with consideration for n«tional interests wiili regard to the obligations assuined by the Dominion at the time of the union, it undoubtedly would be the policy any administration would seek to cairy out to examine the conntry more thoroughly before action. With the irritation that is felt by many in British Columbia, and the constant complaints made, it it douh^j'ul whether the country u>ould be juttified, even for a permanent advantage unleu that one qfto decided and cotielutive a character at to be apparent at tight, in purtuing tueh a policy. Assuming, therefore, for a moment — and assuming what I may call almost a certainty — that the Jasper House Pass would be the crossing place in the Rocky Mountains, we have the line tolerably clearly defined from east io wegt." Thus, Sir, . at that time we had a statement that further explorations must not be imdertaken lest delay might occur in the work of actual construction. The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) at that time! sat beside the then First Minister. (Cheers.) And speaking of taxation, the late Finance Minister that very same session, the session in which this statement was made by the honorable member for Lambton, came down and announced that there was a deficit of $1,900,000, and amended the tariff with the 'dew to still further taxation. Yet. in spite of that deficit, and of that increased taxation, we had the statement of the honorable member for Lambton that so important was it that this arrange- ment should be carried out and the terms fulfilled by an immediate commencement of the work of construction, that he was actually prepared to forego further exploratipns unless the advantages of such explorations were apparent at first sight. The honorable gentleman in the same speech said :«r- ' «Our policy was this :— It is utterly impossible to commence the construction in British Columbia until we have overcome the initiatory difficulties by carcfelly sur- veying the country and ascertaining the line which would have ultimately to be adopted. From the statconents I have made it will be seen t^at an enormous force has been engaged and a large amount expended in that l^ruvince, and it itt unjust iu the ptfople of British Columbia to coniplaiii that we ht\.v^ not pr()«tt!cuti.>d this work with all due diligence. Direetiom werr. given by (he Oovemment to the Chief Engineer and by him to hit itt{f that anything that could k done wat to be done ia order 1 fmth the work forward at rapidly at pottihU " In the same speech, in order to ^ve additional proof of his sincerity atid of his determination to carry out this work, he referred to the steci rails which had been sent to British Columbia. He said : — " It ha8 boon assumed that as this road is aot to b* uonstrucb.'d the m*ls i«toip|>e«l to British Columbia arc therefore utterly nse-vH. Thai ib a ATetU riitnSaiw It «<« arr ahU to commence the work qf eonilruetion J*!jr rfmmg ytar in hrthth Ort^mmUm ek**e rails would be tegui'vd. It may be said Ut be impoimhle to can:iu«^ooe tlht cwwiu vuUou ot the road in British Columbia vitliout hav<" "_\yverument had succeeded in bringing matters to a dead-lodt, and the Premiu w&a bcvr^H to tell the Huuso, before asking it to vote this large amount, what wu Into, ied to do." " Hon. Mr. Blakr — The latit paragraph in the papers will show." " Hon. Mr. Maokkncik — I said our policy from the first was to do everything in our power to keep the l>argain the hon. gentleman and his friends made, and nothing will be lackiny on our own part to bring it to a *ucce»»ful couclution in British Columbia, I have shown prftty conclusively that nothing I lun aware of has been left undone that could be done. I do not Jtnow what the hon. gentleman waata." ^cndinK BiitiHh IRS NOT m they LORD DUFFERIN.S CONCEPTION OF THE OBLIOATIONS OF THE REFORM GOVERN.MENT. That is to be taken as the interpretation of the arrangement made by the honorable member for West Durham when he entered that Cabinet. JbJut we have another authority as to what the late Government intended to do, whicli to my mind seems utterly to negative the suggestion made by the honorable meml>er for West Durham that he entered he Cabinet upon conditions which would have dishonored the Government that accepted him on such terms. Lord Dufferin, then Governor-General of Canada, was sent to British Columbia in 1876. I should perhaps not use the word *' sent," but he went to British Columbia, though judging by his speech, perhaps I am right in saying that he wa.s sent there. He went there at any rate. He went through the country. Honorable gentlemen who have been trying to decry Bnti.sh Columbia will do well to read Lord Dufferin's speech on fliat occasion, wherein he described what he calls " this glorious country." But sir, the then Governor (ieneral of this Dominion, after his return from his tour through the interior of British ColumV)ia, and just be- fore he embarked for San h rancisro, made a speech in Victoria. How seri- ous he felt that speech to be may be gathered from one expression, which I will read, and which was an extraordinary expression for a nobleman in his position to use : — <■ I would sooner cut my right hand off than utter a tfingle wonl that I do not know to be an ttl>B«)lute truth." Tiiis statement was made in order to convince British Columbia that what he said, he said from a knowledge of the facts, with a resolution to say nothing but what he knew to be absolutely true The honorable member lor West Durham, (Mr. lilake) as a good constitutionalist, knows that be- in},' a .Minister at the lime, Ive was responsible for every word Lord DulTerui then uttered. Here is an extract from the speech : — '' Lot me thi-n aHHur*; you, on the part of the Cuiutliiui Uovernmont nnd on tUf part or ihw Oiumuiau piuiplu ut large, llt.nt IIkto is notliirij; tlicy dvsin.' more cHrM«n'4tiy -t more fjivently tiian lo Imow and Aol that you i\t>; «ui- with tliom in heart, thought and t'culing, Canada would indeed Im dufwi to Mie ino«t solt- vident coiuM4«'Fikti«inH of fi'h'-iiiti . rtt, uMci to the first instimtn <>t national \n\iUi. ' -at did luit roganl wi.a i«4 Mtlsftctton h«r connectkm with the pi«*^.nce m> iloblj endowed hj natare, inh«bited bf a oommanftf to replete with Brittsh l<^t7 end plaok, while it •ffiorded her the mearii of eztendinf her oonflnes and the ontlete of her commeioe to the wide Pacific and to the conntriei b^ond." Well, Sir» at that time there was a suspicion prevailing that the honorable member for Lambton had not acted in good faith in connection with the Carnarvon terms. Th'jre was a suspicion prevailing, because two honora- ble gentlemen of the Senate, prominent friends of that gentleman, who were known to be so good party men that one could hardly conceive their voting against dny measu ". ""'hicn the Government sincerely desired to see passed — yet voted iigainst this bill — ^there was a suspicion that he had procured the defeat of the measure for the construction of the Esquimault and Nanai- mo Railway in the Senate ; and reierring to that suspicion Lord Dufferin said: — « Had Mr. Hackeniiie dealt eo treacberously by Lord Camarron, by the repreaentatiro of hie eorereign in tbie country, or by yon, he would have been gnilty of a moot atrocious act, of which I truat no public man in Canada or in any uther British colony could bv capable I tell you In the mo«t emphatic terms, and I pledge my honour on the point, that Mr. Maokonaie was not guilty of any such base aud deceitful con- duct ; 4um1 I thought him guilty of it, cither he would have ceased to be Prime Minister, or I should hare left the country." I ask you, where is the difference between conspiring to secure the defeat of the measure in the Senate which had passed the Commons, and which the Ministry pretended to be in favor of, and conspiring to arouse public sentiment, as those honorable gentlemen are doing to revived in their integrity those original treaty obligations on the strength of which yon were Induced to enter Confederation, and it haa reirotMMMid upon Mr. Mack en vie and bis Ocvernmont thu obligation of offering yon an equivalent for that stipulation in the CaroArvon terms, which he has not b»Bn able to make good." Then he refers to the C)flfcr of $750,000 as compensation for the failure of ttiat part of the Carvarvon terms which the .Senate had made it impossible to mike good : — '' My onif obkH t In toHciiirtjgr njnm them at all In t<> disnhnsc your mindN of the idea thft'. there 1i«m Imen any intention on the \}titt f Mr. Muckenzle, hU Government or of Canadri Ut htthk fhlth witli you- Evfry »ing>t Utm nflki Ciwnarvon ltrm» it at Ihit imtintnt in the eourne nj/uffllment.'' 86 The honorable member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) is responsible for that statement. Lord DufTerin pointed out how this was the case, and then he went on to say : and I beg the honorable member for West Durham to listen attentively to what he did say in relation to the conduct of those who, being strong in numerical majority, would try to oppress a small Province because it had not sufficient members to compete with them : — <* Your Dumerioal weakn««H m u community is yonr refti 3trKngtb,^r it i« a corui- eUration that ap/Malt to fvery gentroiu hiart. Far Ite tlio day when on uoy acre of noil aboTv wlilch floats the flag of England, niern material power, bruto political prepon* derance, should lie permitted to decide 8uch a controvutHy m that which we arc now discuHNing. It is to men like yuuraelvoH, who, with nncjuaiUng fortitude, and heroic onergy, have planted the laws and lihertieH, and the hlettsed influence of Euglish homeK amidst the wilda, and rockn, aud desert plains of itavage lands, that England owes the enhancement of her prestige, the Uiifusion of her tongue, the increase of her c<^morce, and her erer-wideniug renown, and woe betide the Govirnmnt or the itatei- man who, becaute itt inhabitantti are few in number, and'poUtieally i]f amall account, thould ditregard the wiehet or eareUiily dtenait the rei>re»er,ittion», Sowever bluff, bonttrout, or downright, qflhefeebhet 0/our distant eolonien" I draw to those words the special attention 01 the honorable member for West Durham, who for the moment has permitted him;self to sink the states- man who c;in think of the next generation, into the parish politician, who thinks o-.ily of the next general election. (Cheers.) That was the position in 1876, and I think I may say that I have established beyond controversy, beyond the possibility of controversy, the fact tliat the honorable gentlemen were at least committed, the honorable meinher for West Durham amongst the rest, at that time, to the honest fulfillment of iha bargain which they liad made. (Cheers.) lade. Urity enter it the erms, ire of ssible FURTHER EVIDENCE OF THE OBLIGATION OF GOVERNMENT TO THE BRITiiH COLUMBIA EXPENDITURE. In 1877 — it was reported — I do not know what truth there was in the report — that it was in consequence of Ix)rd Duft'erin's visit to British Columbia, the question of the selection of the Burrard Inlet route came up for the first time. Up to that time that route had hardly ))een heard of. and the honor- able memlwr for Larabion was known to \k in favor of the Bute Inlet route. Mr. Mackenzie — I have no objection to tell the honorable gentleman that Lord Dufferin had nothing personally to do with it. was adopted purely uj>on practical engineering reasons. The honorable genilenjau is quite correct in saying I was in favor of the Bute Inlet route for a consider- able time, in tact I was in favor o^ it until 1 got something btiier. Mr. Wh'tk — Who suggested die change is not a matter of any conse- quence to my argument. 1 simp'y gave the report as it was current at the time, and the honorable member knowing the facts contradicts it. In 1877 the Burrard Inlet route came up for the first time, so far as Parliament was concerned, and so far as the suggestion of it as a serious route was concerned. The honorable member for l^mbton, in reply to the honorable member for Cumberland, who asked whether, in connection with some other statements which he made, he i)ropased to settle that question and put ihe line under contract without the consent of Parliament, that being apparently the inten- tion of the Government, from the speech of the honorable gentleman, Mr. I- 86 -i Mackenzie replied : — " Certainly not ; I think I stated we hoped to have ** the tenders submitted to Parliament next session." (Cheers.) So that in i877> ^ in 1876, there never was a thought of abandoning the line in British Columbia, or violating the Carnarvon terms ; but on the contrary the Government of che day were acting in good faith in their desire to carry out those terms. Well, Sir, in 1878 the honorable gentleman, the last time he had the privilege of making a statement from the Ministerial benches, referred to the great surveys which had taken place in connection with the proposed road through British Columbia. Throughout all his speeches on the subject, from first to last, there runs a line of argument showing how siacerely he was devoted to carrying out the scheme of beginning the work on the nminland. He pointed out that 47,000 miles of country had been traversed by the various parties who were sent out to explore the country, and that there had been *' actual instrumental surveys lal)oriously measured '* yard by yard, of not less than 12,000 miles, or nearly five times the length " of the road when completed from I^ke Nipissing to the Pacific Ocean.'^ MR. MACKENZIE'S INCON.SISTENCY. Then he gave his reasons for desiring to go cm at once as follows : — *< If thero were no political considerations governing the action of the Government, and these political reasons referred to onr obligations with the BritiHh Columbian Oovemment and people to proceed as fiut. as possible — or as the hnn. merolter for Vancouver (Hr. Bunster) says two or three times every day « proi eed immediately,"—* if there were no considerations of that kind to sovem our action, it might be, I have no doubt it would be desirable to spend another two years exploring the country which is yet ootnparatively unknown." • ••#•••••• '< The governing considerations then, sir, are all in favour as it app-'ars to me of adopting the views of the Chief Engineer in respect to this lino. The Qovornment have not at the moment fbrmally resolved upon the adoption of this line, but it is the opinion of the Oovernment that the considerations to which I have alluded in these remarkR are such as must govern their action if they are to attend to this matter pnrely in the public interest." That was the statement made by the honorable member the last time he addressed this House from the ministerial benches. What occurred after- wards ? Parliament was prorogued, the general elections were coining on, and the honorable gentleman advertised for tenders for the construction of that very portion of the railway which we are now asked to postpone. Now, what are we to infer from that ? Governments do not do those things, on the eve of general elections, which are likely to be unpopular with the coun- try. He advertised for those tenders simply because the public mind of this country had been thoroughly imbued with the fact that the honor of the country was pledged to the carrying out of this arrangement. (Cheers.) He had been going on through four sessions, making the only condition of commencement, the completion" of the surveys, and as soon as the surveys were completed he advertised for tenders. (Cheers.) It is true he has suggested, and I am bound to say I was astonished at the suggestion and I am sure this House will be astonished when I offer them the proof I am going to offer, — it is true he suggested he did not intend to build the road, although he advertised for tenders, intimating that he advertised for tenders 87 simply in order that he might find out how much it was likely to cost. (Laughter and cheers.) After all the surveys made and all the reports ob- tained, we Jire actually asked to believe that he had advertised simply with with tlic viev of obtaming an idea of the cost. The only object he had in view in sending 'his advertisement from one end of the Dominion to the other, inducing contractors to make enquiries about them and to go to the expense and incur the loss of time in getting up their tenders, was simply to ascertain the probable cost without any idea of practical work. (Hear, hear.) All 1 can say about it is this : he deceived his own friends most wonderfully if that was his intention. Here is a statement in the Y onto GMt! of the 20th September last, I do not quote it because it is m the GMc, but because it is an evidence of what was the popular impression as to his intention in advertising for tenders : — "8ir CharleH Tupper'H Pa<'lflc Railway re8olutionB proponed to couHtruct \2f> miles of road in British Columbia during tlic present season. By that promise the British Columbitin members were induced to voU\ for the tariff, so inj.^rions in itself to their Province. They ^avo been amused ever since by tales of expk rations, surveys, gH, purchases of steel rails, and announcements that operatione would soon befcin. It is now latH in the year, nothing has yet iMon done, and very littlo could be dune before winter if the work were now begun. Had Mr. Mackinzii rbmainkd is urrioi, A LAKOB PORTION or THB LIMB WOULD NOW HAVB BBBN 0ON8TRU0TXD, AMD AOCBSS TO THI iNTiRioR HAVi iiRRM oivBH. The peopio of British Columbia may well wonder at their folly in parting with the < bird in hand.'" That was the impression the honorable gentleman made. Well, Sir, a short time afterwards it was announced that the Burrard Inlet route had been agreed upon, and that the Government were advertising for tenders for the construction of a road in accordance with that decision. And here is what the G/ode said on the 27 th October in reference to this question :— " Just a year ago Mr. Madcensie, as Hininter of Public Works, was making prepa* rations for the letting of contracts to build a line from Yale to Kamloops, about 120 miles, and the work of transporting the mils fk'om Eaquimault to the mainland wfu actually begun. As soon as the preient Government came into power, the order for the transportation of the rails was cuuntermanded, and the project of building tlie YaIe>Kamloops lino was abandoned." • ••••••••• <' In other words, they are shut up to a choice between acknowledging that they have by their incompetence lost a whole year to the construction of the line, and. confessing that they never meant to give it up at all, and sought only to temporise in the face of difficulty at the expense of the feelings and hopes of the unfortunate islanders." That was the opinion of the Toronto G/oln in relation to the action of the hon. gentleman. There was then no suggestion that the road should be postponed, but a suggestion that time had been lost in not having gone on with it earlier. (Cheers.) I have evidence still stronger than that — the evidence of the hon. member for Lambton himself— which hon. gentlemen opposite will perhaps accept. Last year the hon. member delivered a speech on the floor of this House. He had no responsibility of office upon hun ; he was in a position, if he had chosen to do so, to have done then what he has humiliated himself by doing on this Occasion. (Hear, hear.) But he did not do so. Here is the assurance that he gave to hon. gentleman on this side : — <' They will always And that gentlemen on this side will be prepared to coDsider •11 raob quMtioDB from • truly nationiU point of riew. Wt reeoanm tkt Migation re$iiy ttpoH u» u* CaiuuHatu, and while I aawrt, In the moet pomtive numner, that Dothlog Ci/aid have been done by any adminiitration during our term of oflloe that wo did not do or try to do, in order to accompliah or realise tboae expectationi which were fener«ted by the Ooyemment of hon. gentlemen oppoeite in their admiaaion of Britifik Colombia into the CoofMeracy I say, at the name time we endeavoured, not merely to keep the national obiiftationa, but we veotorMl to a great extent our own politioal exiatence hh administrators ; we risked our political position fur the ■ake of carrying out to completion, in the best way |>ossible, the course which hon. (gentlemen oppmito had promised should be taken." They are evidently not going an^ longer to risk their political position for the sake of carrying to completion, and in the best way possible, the obli- gations which hon. gentlemen opposite had so emphatically rivetted upon the Dominion. Then he gave to this country from the Opposition benches, a declaration of his policy : — " Our proposal was this : We endeavoured in the first placo to obtain somu modi * flcations of tho terms. We despatched an agent to British Columbk, nnd Lord Carnarvon ultimately oft'ered his good services in order to arrive at some under- Ktanding with that Province, and we reached the understanding that we would endeavour to build a railway Irom I^ke Saperior to the Pacific Ocenn by 1890, that we should expend n certain amount pur imnum in British Columbia after the surveys were completed and the line adopted. The line tuver vnu turwyed luJUeietUly to enable v» to reach thtfl ronclwion till last yiab, AND AS hook AI Wl HAD IMrORMATION TO OI'IDI I'fl Wl ADOPTKt) THB Bl'BBARD INLIT ROITTI AMU IMHRDIATKLY APVIRTISKD rOR TIMDICRS FOR THI CONSTRUCTION OV THAT LINK." (Cheers.) I'liat is ihu statement of the hon. gentleman ; but I have another passage from his speech stronger than that. It will Im; remembered that the policy of the Hon. the Minister of Railways was this : He asked this House to declare that the selection of the Burrard Inlet route was prema- ture, to give him permission to make furtiicr and other explorations, and further to allow him to let 125 miles of railway where he might determine after these explorations were made. What did the hon. member for Lamb- im say to this proposition ? Here is an extract from his speech, and I beg hon. members to note it well : — " I do not see how it Is possible that tiiU House can authorise the Qovcrnment flrst to select a line, and, at the same time, when that line is not miuio known to Parlia- ment, that wo should authorise the Oovernment to enter into u contract for building 126 niilen of the n"' ivuy. If the (rovernmeiit ^^hk for pi>wcr to let out contracts on linos that Itave beer. ah'ea. '&^^.^ '^f^ C^ 99 such progress, he gave reasons showing the great advantages enjoyed by the Western States as compared with the Canadian Northwest. The honorable gentleman dwelt strongly upon what he called the vast recruiting ground which the Western States possessed in the United States, and as an illustra- tion of this, he pointed out that of the increase in the population of the States and Territories, west of the lakes, between 1850 and i860, 81 per cent, was native and 19 per cent, was foreign ; and that between i860 and. 1870, the proportions were 79 per cent, native and 21 per cent, foreign. Then he went on to show that there was no possibility of our copying that wonderful development in our Northwest ; that we had no such native recruiting ground as the Western States. It will be perceived that while the honorable gentleman is pleased to build up a Chinese wall as against imiui- granjs coming into this country, he pulls it down when Canadians are to go into that country (hear, hear.^ Mention has been made two or three times of the large number of Canadians going into the United States. There is no doubt that such an emigration has been going on. But it is worth while to point out that by the census of 1870, it appears that of the population of the United States there were 1.26 per cent, of the whole population Canadians, and that in British North America 1.85 per cent, was of Ameri- can birth. That rather pulls down the Chinese wall on both sides, and shows that the people do come and go from and to both sides. A BRIGHT PICTURE OF THE FUTURE. But after proving to his own satisfaction that we could get comparatively no population into oar Northwest, the honorable member for West Durham went on to ask of what value the population going there will be to the older Provinces. And referring to the suggestion that the manu^cturers of the east will find a market in the west, the honorable gentleman asked, with one of his most cynical sneers, whether the N. P. was to have no effect there. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, it is well known that in the United States, where protection prevails in the west as well as the east, western development has resulted in home markets for eastern manufacturers. (Cheers.) So much is this the case, that the group of manufacturing States has increased in population in an equal ratio with the whole United States. (Cheers.) I think it will be admitted by everyone who knows anything of the progress of immigration, notwithstanding the suggestions of the member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) that emigration has always gone on lines of latitude, that the tendency in the United States is for the emigrant to go into new territory. Places that were the centres of immigration only ten years ago, are now the recruiting ground for emigrants going still "urther westward ; and aS we have, at tihis moment, in our Northwest, the newest regions — almost the only places remaining on the North American continent entirely new — we shall have the same process or movement from east to west, into our territory, in the future, in addition to the large immigration from the Old World. (Cheers.) THE IRISH IN CANADA. Then the member for West Durham told us as another reason why we could not hope for much emigration to that country, that the people of Ireland m^w -^Tc' '■'V''' ' m,tim 91 were not likely to come into Canada ; and we had an appeal to Irish sym- pathies as a means of signalizing, perhaps, the advent of Irish leadership, and the downfall of Scotch ascendancy in the Liberal party. If he had been disposed to deal fairly with his own coimtry,: he might have referred to the fact that there is no part of the North American continent where the Irish race occupies a better position than in Canada. What is the fact in the United States to-day ? The governing party are bitterly opposed to the Irish race ; and the most effective cartoons of the great Republican carrica- turist Nast are those in which he appeals to Irish antipathies among native Americans. Do we find anything of that kind here ? On no other part of this continent have the national and religious feelings of the Irish Roman Catholics been recognized as in Canada. (Cheers.) Even in the Act for opening up our new territory there is a constitutional provision made for supplying the Irish Catholics with schools in accordance with their own re- ligious convictions. The honorable gentleman might, when making that appeal to Irish sympathies, and endeavoring to secure a new alliance, with a view to the building up of his party, have said this much in relation to the Irish race in Canada. Nowhere, whether in politics, commerce, or the pro- fessions, has the Irish race achieved greater renown or a more pre-eminent position than in the British North American provinces. ^Cheers.) THE RAILWAY AS A COLONIZING AGENT. But I am glad he admits that the railways in the United States have been the secret of their development. There is no doubt of it. In the Re- public, in i860, only 18 years ago, there were only ^6,6;^$ miles of railway ; in 1878, there were 81,841,000 ; die average miieage built every year for the last 18 years was 2,845, equal to the entire length of the Canada Pacific Railway. (Cheers.) Though he admits that it is to those railways is due the rapid peopling of the American Northwest, giving an example of a movement of population and of settlement on a scale never before seen, yet he seeks to place his party on the platform of building no more railways in Canada. (Hear, hear.) The member for North Norfolk, referring last night to the impossibility— for that seems to be the theme on the opposite side — of building up our Northwest country at all, alluded to the smaU pro- gress made in the Western Sates from 1800 to 1S30. When he had to go back that far he was hard pressed for an argument. (Hear, hear.) At that time it v: quite true the Western States were not peopled at all. TTieir popu- lation was, I think, about 760,000, the whole population of the country being i2,866,u2o. But since, and in exact proportion to railwi^ development, the Western States have been developed. Up to that tim^ fliere was scarcel)' any emigration from the Old World to the United States. It is rather a curious fact that from 181 5 to 1S40 the emigration from the British Isles to the British North American Provinces actually exceeded the whole emigra- tion from them to the United States by 82,000. Down to 1847, the year of the Irish famine and the terrible ship fever, the emigration from the I ritish Isles to Canada was 746,163, and to the United States 780,048, the differ- ence being only about 24,000 in favor of the United States. But since that year emigration has been on a larger scale to the United States, in conse- quence of those very Western territories attracting the people from the i ■ ■ Eastern States, who left room for the people from the Old World. By the census returns, while 645,608 people camie from the United Kingdom to Canada, from 1847 ^i^^ 1870, 3,692,624 went to the United States. We have in our mother land an important recruiting ground for emigrants to this country. (Hear, hear.) In spite of the enormous emigration from the Mother country, the population still increases. From i86c to 1870, its emi- grants to all parts, including Australia, Canada, and the United States, reached 1,571,729, despite which its increase of population was over two and a half millions. That shows how important a recruiting ground the British lies furnish for this Dominion. (Hear, hear.) We are told we are not going to get much money from our lands in the Northwest, The mem- ber for West Durham stated that 11,770,000 acres were sold in the United States, from i860 to 1869, and from 1869 to 1879, 47,170,000 acres. Mr, Blake — Not sold, but granted and sold to settlers, Mr. White — I understand — located or taken up. But he did not refer to the railway lands disposed of, Mr. Blaket— I mentioned that that number did not include the railway lands, Mr, White — I so understood you. But what do we find ? That the United States Government granted to its railway companies 192,308,311 acres, and that the companies sold to June 30th, 1879, 43,698,068 acres. Thirteen railway companies in the United States sold in 1877, 1,006,266 acres, and in 1878, 2,570,744. Sixteen co apanies sold their lands at an average of $5.70 an acrfe. So there is proof that the railway companies in the United States have succeeded in outdoing the Government, and that people have actually gone West and paid large prices for railway lands when they could have got homesteads and pre-emptions for little or nothing, showing the advantages and good results that have flown from a perfectly organized system in inducing these companiies to co-operate in the settlement of those lands. The total receipts from the sale of lands in the United States for this century are $204,447,473, Those figures show that the lands of that country have beeh yearly growing in attractiveness -, that there has been a greater demand, a large number of sales and more competition, for the land year by year. We may fairly assume, thien, in connection with our North- west, the settlement of a lai]ge population in it at no distant day. (Cheers.) th£ debt of the country. ieir reason urged by the member for West Durham why we could not hope for succ^s in selling the Northwest was that we have a large debt in Canada, Werfliave. I very much regret it is so large. But we are incurring obligations, perhaps in the hour of our greatest weakness, that will suffice for years. We are building up large enterprises, such as those connected with the canals ; deepening our rivers, erecting lighthouses on our coasts, in the interest of that great commerce that must come to the country in the future. These expenditures make additions to our debt. But those improvements go on adding, not by way of direct return — which the hon, gentleman s^ms to think is the only possible return a naticm can have for its expenditures, but in the development c^ our industries, of our trade and commerce, and in the promotion of that prosperity which is very much k-~*»?:-s»»i>w»S«tl»^»'' .7.fe^Lvilil';,-.l*-'.i,rfj«il^!lr-|»^-iy' ' - jb:^ %^m 98 )se »n. more valuable than any question of so many dollars as tolls from those works. (Cheers.) Take the Welland Canal ; it does not yield us a great deal in direct returns. And yet who is there in the country would oppose the expenditure on its impiovement ? Who would even dream of looking for a return from that work from the tolls on the vessels passing through it. It is simply a means of bringing the largest vessels from the Western lakes into Lake Ontario, to enable Canada to compete with the United States for the shipment of grain to Europe. Nothing could be more unfair than to refer to the debts for such public works as if they had to be repeated from year to year. They are sources of development which the people have voluntarily undertaken in view of the great advantages to result from them. (Cheers.) The honorable gentleman should have dealt honestly with our debt, which he told us had increased from $77,- 706,000 net debt in 1871, to $147,485,070 in 1879, °^ about 89 per cent. ; and he went on to compare that increase with the increase in Euro- pean States whose large debts have been incurred, not for the purpose of development, but for destructive objects and great armaments. • But with all this great increase, it will be admitted that the measure of the burden of the debt is the annual interest paid upon it. Now what is the fact ? That while the net debt has increased about 89 per cent, the actual interest on the debt has increased rather under 40 per cent. (Cheers. ) Mr. Blake — I stated that. Mr, White — Yes ; but the honorable gentleman so emphasized his statement as to cause the fact to be overlooked. That is the real position of affairs as to the increase of debyt upon which the honorable gentleman dwelt. There was no object, I think, speaking in the interest of his own country, in throwing into the face of those who might desire to take advan- tage of the fact, that a large increase has takeh place ; no object in giving an opportunity to those who are opposed to Canada, and who are watching this debate, ready to use the expressions of the honorable gentlemen to the detriment of this country in England and Europe generally ; no necessity to refer to an increase of the debt ma way to cause an erroneous impression in regard to it . In that increase about $1 4,000,000 are debts of the provinces which have been assumed by the Dominion ; that is no real increase, but a transference of debt Sir Richard J. Cartwrioht — That is a itiistake. Mr. White— Does the honorable gentleman deny that view ? Sir Richard J. Cartwright — Certainly. Mr. White — I think I am right ; and I do not think the member for West Durham will venture to say that the assumption by the Dominion of the debts which had to be paid by the provinces, is any addition to the burdens of the people ; it is a mere transference of the obligation from the provinces to the Dominion, the taxes coming from the same people all the while. ■ (Cheers.) the PINANeiAL POSITION OF CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES CONTRASTED. Then the honorable gentleman referred to the annual expenditure in Canada, which was, if I remember aright, $6.69 per head, while in the United States it was $6.13 per head. Well, what is tlie fact witli regard to our expendi- "'>7-^ mi i'■^ ■'i^ '■■"^ 94 ture ? It is well that our condition, as compared with the United States, should be understood when the whole policy of honorable gentlemen oppo- site is to show how much more desirable a country from every standpoint is the United States to settle in than Canada. The honorable gentlemen referred to the large decrease of debt which is taking place there, and happily taking place, because it is well that all free governing communities should be as lightly taxed as possible. But the honorable gentleman, in taking that ground, ought to have pointed out that the expenditures of the Dominion of Canada practically include the expenditures of the Provinces, (hear, hear), and that there is one item, the subsidies to the Provinces, which, it seems to me, ought always to be considered in presenting the ex- penditures of the Dominion of Canada. What are the State debts in the United States ? What are the debts outside altogether of the debts of the Federal Government ? The last official census of 1870 shows that there were State debts, county, town and city debts, independent altogether of the Federal debt, amounting to $868,676,758. (Hear, hear.) The amount raised by direct taxation in the United States in connection with the State, county, town and city debts, amounted to no less than $280,591,521. In 1&60, those direct taxes, outside the Federal taxes altogether, outside the revenues of the Federal Government, amounted to $94,186,746 for tliat year, and in 1870 they had increased to $280,591,52^, or an increase during that period of $196,404,775. ^Hear, hear.) The honorable gentleman referred to another point He says : — Look at the enormous taxes involved in the Customs' duties^ Under this Customs' tariff we have the large sum of 19.62 per cent, of everything that, j is im- ported into the country going into the Dominion Treasury, and he urged that, I presume, as a reason why people should go to the United States rather than come to Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, he might also have stated that in the United States, of the total imfiorts, free and dutiable, no less than 29.44 per cent, goes into the Federal Treasury. Or, if he came to dutiable goods alone, he might have pointed out that while in Canada it is somewhere about 34 per cent., in the United States it is 45.28 per cent, of everything that is imported that goes into the Federal Treasury. That is a specimen of the kind of argument with which this House hsfi been treated, in order to prove that this country is hcrdly a fit coimtry to live in, that we have neither present nor future to hope for, and that all sensible men should feel that the proper place to go to, if they want to change their homes at all, is into the Unite^ States and ncA into Canada. (Hear, hear.) THE RESOURCES OF BRITISH COLUMBIA. And now, sir, I come, for a moment, to the question of British Colum- bia itself. It seems to me that in relation to British Columbia there is a determination irom one end of the country to the other to belittle that Pro- vince. We have heard about the 12,000 people there; we Have heard about the enormous injustice done to this country by the representation given to those 12,000 people ; we have heard about British Columbia being a source of large expenditure, and as practically returning nothing to the Treasury ; we have heard of it as a country uttc-^ useless ; we have heard honorable gentlemen say, with a flippancy which I am sure every one m Ithe ird ne must regret when you coma to remember the position they occupy, that if it is a question between building this railway and letting British Columbia «o, they say : Let her go — they almost say, let her go whether the railway IS built or not. What are the facts with regard to this Province ? I do Jiot repeat the remarkable figures given by the honorable member for Vic- toria (Mr. DeCosmos) in the speech he has addressed to this House. He gave us figures which I think will have a very considerable influence in •educating the public sentiment of this country in relation to British Colum- bia. What was the revenue last year of that Province which we are asked to regard as bein^ utterly valueless, which has not yet commenced to be developed, but which I think will be found to contain natural riches — I was going to say hidden riches — ^which, in the near future, will make it, if not the richest, one of the richest provinces of this Dominion ? The revenues last year from customs, seizures, excise, ' mariners' fees, stamps, &c., •amounted to $572,955.29. Sir, what was the expenditure ? I do not admit that the expenditure on surveys can fairly be chargeable to British Colum- bia. British Columbians woi'''^ have been glad, I have no doubt, if the Dominion of Canada had consented to begin the road without a survey at all (hear, hear). The expenditures for surveys in British Columbia have been made for the exclusive benefit of Canada AS a whole. They have been made with the object of finding the •cheapest and best route for the railway with a view to future saving and future advantage, and therefore they are in no way chargeable to that pro- vince solely. But taking the expenditures on subsidy, collection of customs, excise, lighthouses, coasts surveys, fisheries, salaries of Lieutenant-Governor ajid Receiver-General, penitentiary, hospital, Indians, administration of justice, public works, post office, — taking all these, we find the expendi- tures were $462, r 7 2, so that there was an annual balance in favor of the Dominion last year $110,782. That was the position of British Columbia' in connection with the Dominion of Canada. Mr. Blake — Have you included the interest on the debt and the sub- sidy ? Mr. White — I have included the subsidy only. Mr. Blake: — And the interest on their share of the debt ? Mr. White — How much is it ? Will the ex- Finance Minister kindly say how much it was ? Sir Richard J. Cartwriht — According to the statement of the De- puty Finance Minister it was $97,000. Mr. White — Then we have still a balance in favor of the Dominion. But what I want to point out is this, that the revenues have been progress- ing in that Province. In 1874 the revenue from customs which I take as a fair test, not having had to examine the others in detail, was $30^,436 ; in ^875, $337,451 ; in 1876, $490,226; in 1877, $405*650; »" 1878, $426,- 607 ; in 1879, $517,261, shewing a steady progress every year, with the exception 01^1876, when the revenues increased by nearly $90,000 by some means which I have not been able to learn With the exception of that year there has bee(n a steady progress from $306,436 in 1874 to $517,261 in 1879. Then there is another point which I think indicates that the people of British Columbia are somewhat progressive. There is no better test of the progress of a people than the post-office I find that the coUec- t I I >» , ■ d6 tioni in the post-office of British Columbia amounted last year Co $18,4^8, while in Prince Edward Island, with its one hundred thousand inhabitants, a province which we all admire, the garden province of the Dominion, the receipts were $20,840, or a difference of only about $2,400 between British Columbia with its 12,000 inhabitants and Prince Edward Island. (Hear, hear.) This indicates an activity on the part of the people of British Columbia, an enterprise and intelligence, which augur well for the future of that Province (hear, hear.) Sir, why should we not expect that this piece of railway in British Columbia will return something to this Dominion in the form of regular tolls, and by the development of the Province itself? If any one will take the trouble to look over the library, they will find that in i860, 1861 and 1862, almost every body seemed to be engaged in writ- ing books about British Columbia, showing that that Province contains within itself sources and weaith which are certainly equal to those which are to be found in any other part of the Dominion. Tbere is nothing more unfortunate than the disposition to measure all national wealth by the grain producing power of the country. We have our prairies where wheat cr«n be raised : we have in Nova Scotia our magnificent mines of coal and iron, which are going to make that Province very wealthy in the future ; we have in New Brunswick forests of timber and the shipbuilding industry which are the distinctive features of that Province ; and we have in British Columbia great sources of riches, and particularly of coal, iron and other minerals, which have always been the basis of powerful States, and which I venture to believe will make British Columbia or.'* of the wealthiest Provinces in this Dominion. Apart altogether, therefore, from the considerations of national honor,, which seem to me to be strong, a^d which have been presented with so much force by honorable gentlemen op- posite, when they occupied a position on this side of the Hoi»e, that they cannot escape from them. I say that, on mere grounds of material develop- ment and natural well-being, we ought to do something towards the develop- ment of that province. The honor^U^ member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) talked last night of an expenditure of. $30,000,000 in British Co- lumbia. There is no such expenditure demanded from the House at this time. As I understand, the policy the Government has announced it is this: honorable gentlemen oppoate admit that we must complete the por- tion of the road we have already under contract from Thimder Bay to Red River aad the 200 miles west <^ Red River. I understand the policy of the Government is to build the 125 miles of railway which opens up the best section of JBritish ColumSi^ and which gives entrance to a great length of navigation, and will open up such portions of that province as are capa- ble of devel<^»nent and improvement ; and that the work of the Pacific Railway shall go on in accordance with the wants of settlement in the prai- rie regions. .There is no necessity in British Columbia for the continuance of that road to the Rocky Mountains until the railway across the plains is ready to meet it. (Hear, hear.) But as the road goes on over the plains in advance of settlement, the intermediate country will become filled with people, and when we get to that point where we shall be receiving advan- tages, which I venture to believe will be considerable, then the question of the connection of the line on the prairies with the line which is now pro- posed to be constructed will become an important question for this Domini- ?w *v..'y [• ^taiIai'«ai(teifei"A'»Ssvit:>«w:.-KS&-'4iiai;^^ I. u- d^ ^p deci4^. (Hear, hear.) That does not become an important question at present, and it is not right, therefore, for the honorable member for North Norfolk to talk of an expenditure of $3o,ooo, lot JO ji')S1ii^ lioilr!' rii£f.ro •Si lir.'J.v) at •.\>- uJi vM\i .tii The Miniiter o/Bailwayt and Canals to the ilngineer-iri'Chief. BjgpiL.RT)«lNT OF B'AnWAYB AND GaSAI-S, 00 Kfiiifu UO ,,,. I , -I ,:.;, fli-itf-f.'T r,j W.Viff, • .1,., (; •. ■•'■ ~r,,,' •^.^■«,i (,r--' , ,tiP>Aa,Qi]i,r-TI)6 I^i^c Bai|w!»y debativ itrilL l)6gin this aftdraoooi and I muet; M^ 3^01^ %Q fvn^ah me with ,^i^ e^iimaie pf costi 1 l^ fiQive ^^% take tUe : fikUomng . data: — ■ .iruu •r^ur r^i. ,ii ']> )'j>!" T'he contract for tbe firet 1 00 miles west of B«d Birorvvaaiit is^ibehig catried out wi^.h^f ballasting, 'etc,:- ,,,,,.,,.; ,;, ,; \ i-v^n-v:/ ^u-' »'■:■•■<■■. - The accepted tender for the work on the second hundred miles section west of %d Biysr, (1438,914), i ; , , I i i . Wit)^ rcigard to the location and character of th© railway, I am aware that your own, preference has been I for a line with light, easy gradients. The Government rQ«9gnii?es the adva^age o)f- tills feature b«im Selkirk to Lake Superior at much less than the sum named a year ago. Yours faithfully, , i ' Sanuford Fleming, Esq., > '« r . Engineer-in-Chief, Canadian Pacific Bail way. The Engineer'in-Ch^f to the Minister of Bailwaya and. Canals. Canadian Pacitic Bailwat, . Orriqa or thb Enoinrsr-in-Ohiif, . ;^V,,, ■ OitAiWA, 16th April, 1880. The Honorable Sir Charles Tdppbb, K.C.M.G., Minister of Railways and Canals. Sir, — I have the honor to submit the following esti mate of expenditure neces- sary to place the Canadian Pacific Bailway in operation from Lake Superior to Port Moody. I understand the policy of the Qovemment, with respect to the railway, to be :— 1. To construct the section between Lake Superior and Bed Biver with the limited gradients and curves set forth in my reports laid before Parliament, so as to secure cheap transportation, and to provide, by the timg the railway shall be ready for opening, an equipment of rolling stock and general accommodation sufficient for the trafiic to be then looked for. 2. To proceed with the work west of Red River by constructing 200 miles on the route recently established. The roadway and works to be of the character defined by the 48th contract and the tenders for the 65th contract recently received. To proceed with the construotion of 125 mileb in British Columbia, under the 60th, 6lBt, 62nd and 63rd contracts. The expenditure on the lis miles to be limited in accordance with the provisions of the contract, and the views set forth in my re- port of the 22nd November last. • To proceed gradually with the intervening distance. To delay placing addi- tional sections nnder contract in British Columbia until the 125 miles are completed,' or well advanred, thus preventing any undue increase in the price of labor. To carry construction westward from Manitoba across the Prairie Region only as settlement advances. In my report of last year, X placed the cost of the section between Lake Superior and Red Bivev at $18,000,000. Since that date the steps taken to keep down the expenditure on the 185 miles between English River and Eeewatin have been so far successful as to reduce the length about 3| miles, and the estimated cost fully $500,000. * Report on the British Columbia Seotion, 22nd November, 1879. Extrac^R:— *' The total sum of tqe lowest tenders for the four seetions, as above stated, is $9,167,040. It will be borne in>mind that the character of the contract to be entered into is materially different from ordinary contracts. This sum represents th»maximum— the contract is not to exceed the amount, but it may V»e very much leas. (See clauses 5, 6 and 7.) ''Those who made the surveys and ealenlations infbrm me that the quantities are very full, and that in actual execution they can be largely reduced. I am conduced, moreover, that by making an extremely careful study of the final location, by sharpening the curvature in some places, by usin^ great judgment in adjusting the aligoments to the sinuosities and sudden and great irregularities of the ground) by substituting the oheaper classes of work for the more costly whenever it can safely be done, and by doing no work whatever thati:: not absolutely necessary, a very tharked reduction can be made." i'^ ||i>wwui«aj ^9 re.'* The rails for these two contracts have likewise been secured a a considerably lower pt'me than the estimate. Whatever an increasing traffic in future years may demand In the way of terminal accommodation and rolling stock, I ar;^ confident tbo line can he opened for traffic between Fort William and Selkirk, well equipped for the busi- Aesd which raay then be expected, at a cost not exceeding $17,000,000. West of Red Biver, 100 miles have been placed under contract, and tenders have been received for a second 100 miles section. These two sections are designed to be -constructed and equipped in the most economical manner, dispensing with all outlay except that necessary to render the railway immediately useful in the settlement of the country. It is intended that the line be partly ballasted, to render it available for oolonisation purposes, full ballasting being deferred until the traffic demands high speed. It is intended to prov.'d'j sufficient rolling stock for immediate wants, postponing full equipment until the cou. try becomes populated, and the business ■calls for its increase. On this basis and the other data furnished, the railway may be opened from Lake Superior to the Pacific Coast within the following estimate :^— Fort William to Selkirk (406 miles) with light gradients, in- cluding a &ir allowance of rolling s';ock and engineering during construction $17,000,000 Selkirk to Jcupar Valley (1,000 miles) with light equipment, etc. 13,000,000 Jiupar Valley tp Fort Moody (650 miles) with light equipment, etc :— Jaspar to Lake Kamloops, 335 at $43,660 $1 6,500,000 Lake Kamloops to Tale, 125 at $80,000 10,000,000 Tale to Port Moody, 90 at $38,888 3,600,000 $29,000,000 Add 1,000,000 $30,000,000 Total miles, 1,956 $60,000,000 The above does not include cost of exploration and preliminary surveys through- out all parts of the country north of Lake l^ipissing to James' Bay in the east, and from Esquimault to Port Simpson in the west, between Latitudes 49° and 56°, not properly chargeable to construction, $3,119,618, or the Pembina Branch, $1,750,000, or with other amounts with which the Pacific Bailway account is charged. I have the honor to be. Sir, your obedient servant, SANFORD FLEMING, Engineer-in-Ckief. ■'■ 1- .'■■* ; '>x- 3f7i« Engineer-in-Chief to the Minister of Railways and Canals, Canadian Pacifio Railway, Offiok of TBI Engineee-in-Chief, / 1 Ottawa, 16th April, 1880. The Hon. Sir CHARtBS ToppttB, K.C.M.O., Minister of Railways and Canals. Sir, — In compliance with your directions, I have the honor to consider the cost of the eastern section of the Pacific Railway extending from Thunder Bay, Lake Superior, to the eastern terminus, Lake Nipissing. In my report recently laid before Parliamnnt, I have referred to the projected line between South-East Bay, Lake Nipissing, and Sault St. Mary. The explorations of this district have established that a location can be had north of Lake Nipissing, which would be common for 60 or 70 miles to the St. Mary's branch and the main trunk line to the North-Weat. As the St. Mary's branch will, in all probability, be constrncted before the through line is undertaken, the length of the latter will be reduced by the length of the location common with the two lines. The eastern f6o rrr 1 tbf terminni will oonseqaently be advanced aolne 60 or 70 mll'ct to the west, beyond tb'( tibeoreUoal startiog-point at Lake Kipiuing. The length of the eastern sec" therefore, may be assumed not to exceed 600 miles. , It is impossible to say vrl^t labor and materials may cout some years hence, whe^ the period arrives for the eastern section to be undertaken. Taking the basis 6t preMnt prices and present contracts, and adhering to the economic priiiciples of ocjlistrtiction set forth in the letters of yesterday, I feel warranted in stating that f3<^,00b,000 may be considered a finir estimate of the cost of opening the line froo^ ':^dt« Willliam to the Basfem TermiAQs. In order that the estimates of the cost of the line from Foit William to tfa4- Pacifte, and from Fort WillKim to the Eastern Terminus near Lake Nipissing, b^ dmAy understood, I deem it proper to submit tiie following explanations :— . ' ?i«'Mf I have; in previous reports laid before Parliament, advocaHed a location for th*- railway with gonersily light gradients and other favorable engineering featt:ir«H. Th« ptdicy of tlite Oovemment, ai stated in your letter, likewise the change of liue by the abandonment of the old location west oi Bed River, reiusly held. The estimates now sul^mitted are based oh the new conditions and the data to which you refer, vit. : on contracts recently let for four sections In Britibh Columbia,, and tihe reduction to be made thereon ; on the contract for the first 100 mil^s section west of Bed Blver ; on the accepted tender for the second lOQ miles section west of Red River ; and on the assurance made by the Engineer who conducted the stirveys in the Prairie Region, that there will be no more costly 100 miles sktion betweea Manitoi)a and the llocky Mountains than tJie second lOO miles section west of Red Biver ; that hence this section may Ise taken to be representativ-' of tlie whole work to the base of the mountains. I haVe likewise efitiioaated the am Sunt of rolling stock as limited to the extent considered absolutely necessa ry for colonisation purposes, and I have not overlooked the fact that the transportfition of rails and other mate- rials, after our own line firom Llike Superior to Manitoba shall have been completed, will be reduced to nominal charges to cover actual outlay, instead oi the very high rates we have been compelled to pay by the railways in the United States. It must be borne in mind that if the prt^sent defined policy with respect to the gradual prograsB of the work be modified, or if the extent of the work be different from that assumed, or if its general ohanwter he altered, the cost may be affected by the change. The same result may be looked for if a higher price has to l>e paid for materials, or for labor, and if through these or other Causes, the contractors failing to> pf ^orm wha^ they have undertaken, ,the work in i consequence has to be relet at higher prices. Under th^ circiwstances the cost of tlie whole line may be increased. The cost may be enbadeed, moreover, if the location of the line be placed in the hands cf careless or inefficient men, who may faix to exercise the piudence and judg- ment called for, or who may neglect, througii want of care or skill, to lay out the work with regard to economy. Or if the supervision of the contracts be lax, so as to admit of the possibility of work not absolutely required being executed, or of pay- ment being made in excess of wotk performed, increase of cost will result. From first to la^ the strictest economy will have to be enforced, and rigid control exer- cised over the expenditure. The estimate submitted is iwiied on the data set forth, and on that data the whole main line, from. Port Mjoody, on the Pacific coast, to the; Eastern Terminus, in the neighborhood of Lake Nipissing, may be constructed, in the manner and under the circumstai^ces referred to, for about $80,000,000. But to meet any of the pussiblt contingencies to which I have referred, I beg leave to re- commend that, in considering the subject of capital required fbr the undertaki^^, dtj!' Iil)eral percentiEige be added. , . :.,< I have the ho^or to be. Sir, \]f^fl^pi Obedient seryant, , >ij«!Ltai h H