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 2 
 
 9 
 
nciOp 
 
 HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 
 
 Hei'out of tlie ])r()C('e<lin<i's at u (icnoml (V)urt of tijo 
 (fovcriior iind Company of Adventurers of Eri«4lan(l 
 trsulin<4' into Hudson's Bay, held at the City 
 Terminus Hot(;l, Cannon Street, London, on 
 Monday, loth 'Uily, 189/). Sir Doxaij) A. Smith, 
 K.C.M.(j. (the Covernor), presiding. 
 
 The GOVBRNOR : The Secretary will read the notice convening 
 the meeting. 
 
 Th(f Secretary (Mr. W. Ware) read the notice. 
 
 The Governor : Gentlemen, you have the Report hefori' you, 
 and I presume it will be yom- i)lea8ure to take it as read. (Hear, 
 iiear.) You will have seen in the Report that the profit for the 
 year with which we are now dealing? is MCi{),27!'t J4h, 7d., and there 
 has been brought forward from last year .4i2.'),()2I> w. l>d., makiny 
 altogether £8.5,150.^) Os. 4d. A dividend of I'is. jjer share will 
 absorb £()(I,(KK>, leaving to be carried f<»rward to next year 
 £2.5,H().') ()s. ]{\. We trust that under all the circumstances of the 
 case — the adverse circumstances with which we have had to deal, 
 and with which all who have been connected with business in 
 America have had to ileal within the last twelve months — this will 
 be considered by the Shareholders as a satisfactory exhibit. 
 (Ai)plause.) It is, as yon will also see, dei-ivt'd almost solely from 
 the fur trade and the sjile-shops, the recei))ts from land alt(»gether 
 being '/idy, with the interest, i:l<S,47'.t, as against .i*:2.S,.S-l'.> last year, 
 which of itself was anything but a good result. It is not at all 
 surjirising that it should be so with i-egard to the land, for the 
 harvest was a ba<l one last year, and the crops coming to a very 
 bad market indeed, the prices were abnormally low, much 
 lower than for many years before. There was very little money 
 in the country, and, conse(inently, it was im])ossiblt' fur those who 
 in ordinary circumstances are your lu-st customei-s — those already 
 settU'd on the neighbouring lands — to make such ])Ui-chases of your 
 lands as in more favourabh' circumstance's tiiey would hiive maile. 
 
 The fur sales of last March, fortunately, were better as regards 
 prices than in the year liefore, or evt-n for two years i)reviously. 
 Marten having advanced 7') per cent.. Mink U) per cent., Lynx 
 .') per cent., and White Fox I'M) per cent. — a very large advance 
 indee«l on the last-mentioned fur, but then the amount altogether 
 of this is comparatively small. These are the advances in the 
 ])rincipal furs ; but it nnist not be overlooked that in .Tainiary 
 there was a (iecline in the price of furs sohl, Beaver, a most 
 
z 
 
 iiii])()rtaiit iiiticlt' of trade, Imving goiu- back 15 per cent., ami 
 ^[iisciuasli, which is jjot in very large qnantities, 12.^ per cent., as 
 compared with .lanu'try, l«Sl)4. As I have already said, with all 
 the eircinnstances t n into account, we are glad to find that the 
 dividend for the present year, which is proposed to you to-day, is 
 really what we consider ^'ood. (Applause.) 
 
 To revert to land matters, the municipal taxation for the last 
 year has been less by £l,r)(M) than in the year before, and by 
 le^'islation which took place last year in Canada, you have been 
 lelieved from a tax of $1 ))er certificate on conveyances of land 
 by tlie Comitany, which tax would have entailed an expense of 
 sojne .-"i-lOjOIH), a very substantial gain indeed. 
 
 You will see by the Hejx.rt that there is a sum of £1(;,()2(; 198. 4d., 
 beinj,' interest formerly char^'eable to the fur trade, to be met in 
 the accomits of this year. The charge is unnecessary now. 
 Many of you will recollect, for you had the particulars of it 
 before you in former meeting's, that an arrangement has been 
 made with those formerly called wintering jjariners — the Officers 
 of the Company — by which, instead of participating in the profits, 
 they now get a fixed salary. This is a matter of very great 
 convenience for the Comjjany, and one which is approved of as 
 well l)y the Officers. I should like to SJiy with regard to these 
 Otfieers, as 1 was able to say last year, that their services to the 
 Company are most zealous and most valuable ; that they are 
 hiyal in every nspect to the Company, and in every case they 
 do their utmost for its intereBts. (Applause.) To meet the 
 £1('),()2(*» lils. 4d., your Directors have thought it well to take 
 frou) the Amalgamated Insurance Fund —that is the Marine and 
 the Fire Insuranc<' Fim.ls, which amounted to £70,0()(^,£10,0(K), 
 and to charge the balanc*' of £(;,()2() IDs. 4d. to Profit and Loss. 
 Of course, there will he no such item in the accounts hereafter, 
 and you will not liave failed to observe that the acccmnts are this 
 year very greatly simplified in consequence of the arrangement 
 just referred to with tlie Ollicers of the C<mipany, and that you 
 have only three statements instead of six, as in former years. 
 
 I really do not think that, after the explanations given in tho 
 body of the Report, thei-e is anything further of material conse- 
 (iuence for me to a(hl at tliis moment. The sales of land, as you 
 have ab-eady been told, have been very poor, but in that 
 we are not singular. It has been so with all cimipanies having 
 any land in the north-wt'st of America— as well the railway 
 companies as the land companies, and while we have 
 r(!ceived comparatively little for the land, they have received 
 proijortionately less. ' I say so to show that it has not been 
 from any want of proper maujigement on the iiart of your Officers, 
 and thost" dealing with yc.ur all'airs in North America. We have 
 cause to l»e highly satisfied indeed with your Commissioner, 
 and also with all those acting under him for you in America. 
 We believe that the affairs of tho Company are very well in hand, 
 and we nuiy congratulate ourselves upon the economies which 
 have been effected within these few years back, for owing to 
 
the naturf of your businesB it wa8 (luite impowHihle that thewe 
 economies could have been l)rouj?ht about in one or two years, 
 it was necessarily a very gradual affair ; but now we feel that 
 everything is administered so as to make the best of the circum- 
 stances we have to deal with, and when a time of prosperity 
 returns, and indeed we know that we already have entered upon 
 such a time, for throughout the whole of America, that is in the 
 United States and Canada, there is a very sensible lift from the 
 depression of former years, the Company will be in a position 
 to reap every advantage possible from the improvement. The 
 latest accounts we have of the crop, and you all know that that 
 has a very great influence on tho prosperity or waiit of prosperity 
 in a coimtry, from all quarters, is that for many years back the 
 promise of a good harvest has not been such as it is at this time. 
 (A))i)lause.) Of course, there may intervene before the autunni, 
 something of which we do not know, but the fear of frost in 
 the early autumn, which was most to l)e dreaded, is this year 
 minimised by the fact that the crops are at least two weeks earlier 
 than in any former year to which we can look back. Having said 
 HO much, 1 will now add that I shall be ready and glad to answer 
 such (juestions as may be put to me to the best of my al)ility. 
 I beg to propose the adoption of the report and accounts. 
 (Applause.) 
 
 The VjARh OF Lichfield (Deputy-Governor) : I beg to second 
 the adoption of the Report. 
 
 Mr. Henry Clarke : In the course of your remarks. Sir, you 
 said that you on that side of the table are of opini(m that the 
 Keport is a good one, and I think we may fairly say on this 
 side of the table, that we think it also a good Keport. (Applans«0- 
 You also remarked that economies had been effected. My own 
 impression is — and 1 am speaking now for my brother Share- 
 holders — from the visit which 1 i)aid to Canada, the good Kejtort 
 that you have to-day, is not only owing to the better price of furs, 
 but also to those economies which the Governor mentioned in 
 his remarks, and that we owe very much of this saving to our 
 Governor, who brings to bear upon the affairs of this Company 
 so much experience and so much judgment that the economies 
 which we have era' ed for j-ears back, have, under his dominion, 
 been gradually brought about. (Applause.) 1 trust that you will 
 not consider .'hat your efforts in that direction, and the efforts of 
 your colleagues, are exhausted, and that not only will there be 
 further economies in regard to the staff", but also in the jjurchase 
 of i)roduct8. I undtTstand that considerable economies have been 
 effected in bcih directions, but there is something more still to 
 be d(me. With regard to the land, old Shareholders like myself 
 have always thought that the best prospects of the Company were 
 from the sales of land (applause,) because our trade never has 
 l)rought, and never will, I suppose, bring us a dividend at all 
 commensurate with the capital of the Company. As you justly 
 say, the returns from the land sales have been very small indeed. 
 
 ^5738 
 
\o t'iiult is to l)f attrilHitnl, I iiiii perfectly sure, to the adminis- 
 tration on that aci'ouiit, i»ut I shonhl like to ask wht^ther it wonhl 
 be eonsidered liy tlie Hoard desirabh' and practicable for us to 
 eniphiy sonic skilled niiniii;^ en^^rincer to further investifjrate our 
 property — our very large j)roperty on tlie other side, with the view 
 of asccM'taininy wliat our inininif wealth may bi' — what mininj; 
 ground there may Ix' whicii might l)e attractive to those who 
 invest nu>ney in such things, for the purjjose of increasing (»ur 
 income from the land sales. I am pt'rfectly aware that years 
 ago some attempt was made in that 'direction, Init 1 think that 
 it was not a very thorough one, and that perhaps now is a b«'tter 
 time for us to invest a little money in investigations of that kind. 
 I s|)eak un('.er correc-ti(»n, Ix'cause naturally a Shareholder on this 
 side of the table cannot know so much as those on the other side. 
 I would again c(»ngratulatc you on having l)een able to present us 
 will) so satisfactory a lieport. (Ai)plause.) 
 
 Mr LoMAS: 1 (|uite agree with what has fallen from the last 
 speaker, .is to the satisfactory nature of the accounts of this 
 Company, which you have been able to put before uh. T remem- 
 ber on a fornu'r occasion you spoke of the advisability of not 
 throwing the land away for a mere nothing. I trust that your 
 opinion has not undergone any change in that direction, for, as 
 you have correctly saiij, the \ iew ahead is really more jiromising 
 than it has been for some years i)ast. Therefore, I hope that, 
 instead of getting a less price for your land, it will be increased. 
 That is all I have to say. f.\(e})t a remark about mining. My 
 experience of mining o)ierations is that they generally mean loss, 
 ami, therefore, I venture to hope that the (Jovernorand Directors will 
 be loath to enter into mining nperati<»ns ; jirospecting as 1 under- 
 stand it, which can oidy end in loss to the ('omj>any. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 yh: Charlks I'anks: I must apologise to you for asking 
 you to be kind enough to explain the i)aragraph in the Report in 
 reference to tiie chaige for interest hitherto made against the fur 
 trade. It is statt-d that this year's accounts sufler to the extent 
 of £1(;,(I2»; ll>s. Id., and you take £ J (»,()()() from the Insurance and 
 Reserve Fund, and charge £(i,0:2() against Profit and Lyss to meet it. 
 The credit being gone, and the charge being made .igainst the 
 Insurance and Reserve Fund, seems very much like a loss. Am I 
 right in that view ? 
 
 Major Bigg : I do not understand the item which you had 
 down in the Balance Sheet of 18!)4, of £39,000 for buildings. 
 It seems to be omitted in this year's Halance Sheet. As regards 
 your Insurance Funds of £70,000, you had a disastrous fire, 
 1 believe, at Prince Albert — has that been made good out of 
 the Insurance Funds 'f One more question — as to the purchase 
 of furs. Last year the price of furs fell very con8ideral)ly, and 
 I should like to know whether on that occasion you managed 
 to buy your furs cheai)er in (Canada — for instance, Marten fell 
 ;')() per cent, last year ; and 1 shall be glad to know if you got 
 your Marten skins .50 per cent, cheaper on that account ? 
 
5 
 
 The Governor : Are there any other queHtionw ? 
 
 Mr. SUMNKR : With regard to the wilew of hind, 1 have made 
 Home inijuiries in re>,'ard to the mode of wale, and 1 think it i» 
 rij,'ht that 1 sliouhl j^ive the opiniim of a f?entieman of 20 years' 
 experience, at Winnipeg;, aw to faults in the Company's method 
 of dealing with these lands. He instances : " Holding the same 
 at too high prices, stereotyped methods in trying to s«dl, lack of 
 eniM'gy in pushing sales, carrying on business at a distance from the 
 husiness centre, viz. — the south end of the city, and a lack of 
 personal effort to meet purchasers or get purchasers to come and 
 see your land ; whereas the Canadian Pacific Raihvayact in harmony 
 with the North-West Land Company, meet the immigrants, and 
 are continually carrying on corrcsponcU^nc*' as to the ssile of their 
 lands. He calls the Company's people " stay-at-homes." I have 
 n«» charge to make against the Directors, l>ut 1 think it is j)roper 
 that they should he aware o( what some people out there think as 
 to the mode in which their land sales are carried on. I shouUl 
 like to ask a <iuestion with regard to the amount of the land sales. 
 It appears that the gross receipt from the sales is £18,471^, and the 
 expenses including, of course, the municipal rates, are something 
 like £1(»,(H)(), or S') per cent, of the sales. Are these municipal 
 rates ^•hargi^al'? against the sales of land each year 'f 1 understand 
 that an Order in Council has been promulgated for the commence- 
 ment of the Saskatchewan branch of the Hudson's Hay Railway, 
 and 1 sh(»uld like to know whether Parliament has sanctioned that 
 line l)eing made ? 
 
 The fiOVERNOR : We are very greatly pleased indeed to hear the 
 remarks of my honourable friend, Mr. Henry Clarke, Mr. Clarke 
 has been in Canada and throughout the North-West, and has 
 ascertained l'(»r himself a good deal with regard to the affairs of the 
 Hudson's Hay Company, and con8e(iuentlysi)eaks with a knowledge 
 of the facts. The Company have not overlooked the matter of an 
 enquiry into what minerals there may be withni the bounds of 
 their proj)erty. At the same time I may say that there are so 
 many people who are looking out for everything in the shape of 
 valuable minerals thi-oughout the countrj- that the Company are 
 thus saved the expense of themselves going into such a survey or 
 such an examination. (Applause.) Indeed, had your Directors 
 thought it would be in your interest to do so, they certainly would 
 not have omitted to take the proper steps to ascertain as nearl}' as 
 possible what you had available in the shape of mines within your 
 property. As has been very well said by Mr, Lomas, we know 
 that mining has not been invariably successful, but that on the 
 contrary such ventures have fre«iuc?ntiy resulted in great loss. 
 (Hear, hear.) As 1 understantl my honourable friend, Mr. Clarke, 
 he did not for a moment suggest that the Company should enter 
 into mining at all, but that they should ascertain as far as they 
 could what you have in the shape of minerals on your property. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
6 
 
 I would now refer to what was Hiiid by Mr. Sumner in n-ffjirrl to 
 the hinclg. He hiiH heard from some ju-rHon in Winnipeg, who 
 thoufjht he had a jj:oo<1 and exact knowh'd^e of the matter, that the 
 Hudson's Hay Company did not take the same means as others to 
 get the best i)rices for tlieir hinds — that is, they did not look 
 about, and they have not their agents in every (juarter seeking out 
 |)urch}iHers. At the same time, he has been informed that the 
 Hudson's Hay Company would profit greatly, and make far larger 
 sales, if they reduced the price of their lands, and did as th«' 
 Canadian Pacific Railway have done, sell their lands for something 
 like lialf the price that the Hudson's Hay Comjjany receive. 1 
 would mention to tlie honouralde gentleman that the case of these 
 two Corporations is entirely diHerent. (Applause.) I kn()W some- 
 thing of both. To a railway comjjany, having its lines throiighout 
 the whole country, it is of much greater advantage that they should 
 sell their land at almost any price, or really almost give it away, 
 l)ecause what they get from those who take ui> the lands, who are 
 their customers, the traHic they receive from these is more perhaps 
 in one year than the jjrice they would get for their land. (Hear, 
 hear.) The Hudson's Hay Company are not in the Siime position ; 
 they have no such trattic to deal with, and nothing of that kind 
 to expect year by year from those who go into the country. What 
 we make out of our land must be made by the money we get for it, 
 and I think that had we put the price of the land at less than $5, 
 or half that sum per acre, we should not have sold U\ acres more 
 than by disposing of it at $;'). (Applause.) Your best purchasers 
 and customers for your land are those who have taken uj) land 
 from the CJovernmeut, which they have got without price, every 
 settler going out there l)eing (entitled to take u\) J BO acres of land, 
 for which he pays only £2, to cover the Registry Fee. Then he is 
 entitled to pre-empt, or take up at a certain price — j)robid)ly at $1 
 or $1 51 k;. an acre — KJd acres more to be paid for at the vnd of 
 three years. The settlers who have so ac(juired these lands, or 
 who have purchased from the Canadian Pacific Railway or other 
 railway companies, are often anxious to add to the size of their 
 farms so soon as they have the means of doing so, and as the 
 Hudson's Hay Company have two sections in each Township 
 a ready market is thus ottered for them in prosperous times. Hut 
 unfortunately, there has been very little money in that country for 
 two or three years back, so that they have not been in a position 
 to purchase ; indeed, they would not have been able to purchase 
 at $2 an acre any more than they would at $5 an acre in the pjist 
 year. Hut when there is a return of prosjjerity, an<l we see that 
 there is a marked improvement, as I have already said, we shall no 
 doubt have these people buying our land, and glad to pay for land 
 of the quality such as that owned by the Company along the 
 Railway, at the same price they have been paying heretofore. 
 I have been asked whether we still hold the same opinion with 
 regard to the ultimate value of the Company's land as we have 
 given expression to in the past. We certainly do not hesitate to 
 
rtuy tliat ultiinsitely you will have a very >;roat property Indeed in 
 th'iH land. (Applause.) We l)elieve it \h worth very inuch more, 
 1 will not Kiy how much, hut ver> much more than th.' whole of 
 your cai)ital ; and althou^'h it may be some time before you can 
 realiHe to that extent, yet it \n c.'rtain the day will come when 
 your land will be of very ^reat value to you. (Ap])lauHe.) 
 
 As to the £lti,(KX) odd to which Mr. Hanks ref»!rred, that was 
 a charge made when we had the fur trade department to deal with. 
 We had those >,'entleinen who now continue to be Otiieers of the 
 Company as Shareholders having an interest in the trading i)ranch 
 of the Comi)any's business. There was a certain amount of interest 
 char^'eable to that account, and this £U;,(MK1 is the balance re- 
 maininf,' over at the termination of that arranj.,'ement, and the 
 matter is now finally disposed of. s<» that there will be nothing 
 of this kind to deal with in the future. 
 
 Major IMkk has referred to the prices at which furs have l)een 
 purchased latterly owinj? to the decline in vrlue. I may sjiy that 
 the OHicers in the country take advantage of everythinj? that is to 
 the benefit of the Company in this respect. It is not now as it was 
 years aj,'o, impo8sii)le to t,'ive information to your chief Officers 
 there, it miffht l)e for a twelvemonth, of any chanjfe of this kind 
 that took place. Informaticui is now at once given by cypher cable 
 and by letter of any changes in the nuirket for the information of 
 th»' Company's Officers, so that they nuiy deal with the matter 
 intelligently, and take advantage of every possil)le ojiportunity of 
 getting the furs at prices corresponding to those ruling on this 
 side, whether there be a rise or fall in any descriptiim of furs. 
 Major IMgg asked another (juestion in regard to an amount of 
 £:V.>,0()() in the lialance Sheet of last year for " Buildings in 
 Winnipeg and the North-West Territory." I would exjUain that 
 these biiildings have been ti".insferred from the London books to 
 those at Winnijjeg, and are comprised in the entry " Buildings 
 and other Property," £r)4,9(»t» (is. lid. in the Profit and Loss 
 Account in the Report now ])resented. In reference to the fire 
 at Prince All)ert, the Comjjany's mill there was destroyed. It was 
 insuretl to a certain extent by the Comi)any's (reneral Fund, and 
 the loss by the fire has been disposed of in the present accounts. 
 
 In regard to Mr. Sumner's (juestion as to the municij)al taxes, 
 they occur every year, and cannot be got rid of. They are, 
 unfortunately, (merous, but every effort has been nuide to 
 keep them as low as possible. As settlement goes on these 
 municipalities are formed, and the Hudson's Bay Company have 
 to pay their share like others in the cimntry ; but they are 
 not subjected to exceptional taxation. I had almost (»verlooked 
 the matter of the Hudson's Bay Railway. It is true that there 
 was an Order in Council making a certain arrangement with the 
 Hudson's Bay Railway Company. The (iovernment, I believe, 
 proponed to give them a loan of $1(),(KH) a mile for a certain 
 portion of the road, equal to £50(),()0() sterling, or !J;2,5(HMKMI. 
 This Order in Council, it is now understood, will not be acted on, 
 
iind {\w propost 
 
 111. . •>• ^rant will conm'queritly ii(»t 
 <I<) not licsitiitc to say that I iH'lievc it would 
 wtTf lliat inotii'V ffivrii for Hiifli a purpose. 
 
 Im' fortli- 
 )t' a jjrreat 
 It would 
 
 connii^. I 
 inlHt'ortui)*- 
 
 oidy 1m' throwini,' it away— (applauHe) — worxc than that, lufcauMe if 
 you thr»'w that amount into tin- tin*, if hucIi wjtj' powsihle, y(»u 
 wouM lose that only : Itut such loan or j^niiit by the (lovernnient 
 for Huch H purpose nii/ht U-ad |MM>ple in this country, and in 
 Kur(»pi' ^'(MU'rally, to invest in a venture from which they certainly 
 would never receive one p<'nny in return. (Applau(«\) 
 
 Mr. SUMNKU : My point wsw whether Parliament had ^iven 
 s}ujcti«)n to it. 
 
 The GoVKHNOR : The loan referred U» has not been sancticmed 
 in the present session of Parliament. I happen to be a member 
 of the Canatlian Parliament, and there certainly was no measure 
 to that eflVct introduced up to the time I left ( 'anada, and I believe 
 it has not been done since. I will now put the n-y, lotion tor the 
 ailoption of the Hei)ort, which has l>een seconded by the Karl 
 of Lichfield, l)eputy-(iovernor. 
 
 The (ioVKlt.N'OR then put the motion to the meeting,', when it 
 was ci.rried unanimously. 
 
 The GOVER.NOH: Tile Karl of Lichfield and Mr. Alderman 
 Vaughan Morf?an retire l»y rotation, but they now offer them-: 
 Helves for re-election. I have, tlieref<»re, much pleasure in 
 )»roposinK tliat they be re-elected meml>ers «tf the Hoard. 
 
 Mr. HOYIih; : I shall be very pleased to second that. 
 
 The resolution was put ami carried. 
 
 The Governor : The next thing is the re-election of the 
 Auditor, Mr. Tluuiias A. Welton. 1 beg to propose that he be 
 r«'-elected. 
 
 Mr. M. G. Hkwat : I will second that. 
 
 The resolution was also agreed to. 
 
 The Governor : The divitlend will be payable on the 17th of 
 this month, the day after to-morrow. That closes the business of 
 the meeting. 
 
 Mr. COURTENAY : I think it only right that we should pass a 
 vote of thanks to you, Sir, and the other Directors, for your 
 energy and ability in managing our affaii*s during the past year. 
 1 am sure the Shareholders will agree with me in proposing that 
 resolution. (Applause). 
 
 Mr. liOMAS : 1 have much pleasure in seconding that. 
 
 The motion was then put, and carried by acclamation. 
 
 The Governor : drentlemen, we thank you very much for the 
 c<mfidence you show in us. You may depend upon it that, to the 
 best of our ability, we shall do everything that may appear to us 
 to further your interests during our tenure of (dfice. (Applause.; 
 
 The jiroceedings theirterminated.