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Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbole —^ sigir^ifie "A SUIVRE", le symbole V signifie "FIN". Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre filmds & des taux de reduction diff^rents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul cliche, il est filmd d partir de Tangle supdrieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n^cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 ; D The CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. Annual Statement 1i h OV THB Honorable Sir Charles Tupper, ( Minister of Railways. ; DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS \ ON THE 4th MAY, 1883. I ■♦#♦• PRINTED BY THE GAZETTE PRINTING :COMPANY, 1883. ;a;;;jc:^ a»..iii;-3fc,ii; .<=«: 1 1 , ! r 1 Si The Th ( theG Leon 1 1 i Cana He of in 1 i annu that thev But] *'Let thee obsei greal allth 1 sure men! Com the! 1 Eour< year i ernn work able( 1 we n that Sir,-s mad they they tion. lor t ^ gross conn will lesst boor ernn actei tho^ worl 1 nece t;^^ my 8 m THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. Sir Charles Tupper's Speech Tlie aoT^rnmcnt Polte> D«rcn09t to the cociutry luc^c than reconpod by tlie INt ; The Tide of Immlffratlou ; >VtnuipPK and its Cirowth. The following is the speech of Sir Charles Tnppor on the Pacific Railway policy of the Government, delivered at Ottawa on Friday, ^lay 4th, 1883, on the motion of Sir Leonard Tilley that the House go into Committee ofSupjily : — Sir Charles Tuppbr, in rising to make his annual statement with reference to the Canadian Pacific Railway, was received with loud and long continued applause. He said : — I regret very much, Mr. Speaker, that, owing to a severe attack of inflammation of the throat, I was not able at the time proposed to make the annual statement in relation to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I regret still more that I fear the j)rcsent state of my health will not enable me to do adequate justice to the very important question that is submitted for the consideration of the House. But I must, as meeting all shortcomings on my part, refer to the celebrated motto : ''Let the deed speak." I believe, Sir, tliat that great work now occupies a position in the estimation of this House tliat renders it less necessary that any very lengthened observations should be made in relation to it. It is not often that the promoters of a great and important measure are able, after an experience of two years, to say that all the most sanguine predictions that they ventured to oft'er in support of the mea- sure have been already more than realized. Yet, Sir, I am able to make that state- ment on the present occasion. The contract made with tlie Canadian Pacific Railway Company for the construction of that great work — a work so great that my hon. friend the leader of the late Government stated on an important occasion that all the re- sources of the British Empire were not sufiicient to ensure its construction within ten years ; a work so great as to have baffled the efllbrts that had been made by two Gov- ernments to give it any very great prominence — I say, Sir, that the contract for that work required tliat it should be completed by the first day of July, 1891. We are en- abled now to say that if the progress in future is equal to the progress of the past, we may confidently accept the statement of the Canatlian Pacific Railway Company that by the end of December, 188G, that road will be completed from end to end. And Sir, •with the organization they have eti'ectod, with the progress they have already made, with the preparations in hand for vigoi'ously pushing that work to completion, they will not require to make any greater exertions to accomplish that pledge than they have required in the past, in order to push this great work to its present condi- tion. That, Sir, will be four and a-half years before the time j)rovided in the contract lor the completion of the work. And those, Sir, who have witnessed the great pro- gress given to this country, the enormous impetus given to the advancement of this country, by the \igorous and rapid prosecution of the work up to the present time, will agree with me in the sentiment that to anticipate the date of completion by no less than four yo-'TS and a-half will be to confer upon Canada the greatest possible boon and benefit. Nor, Sir, can it be stated that the fullest anticipations of the Gov- ernnient, the strorgest assurances given by us to this Ilousio in relation to the char- acter of the work, have not been more than realized. I have laid upon the Table of the House such fi 11 and complete Information with reference to the |.rogre88 of this work up to the pi esont time, or down to the very latest date, as wdl render it un- necessary for me to detain the House at such great length, as I woiMd otherwise feel myself warranted in doing, in reference to the progress ftiid character of the work. 9. But I am suro the House will permit mo to refer to the evidence of the progress of that work and the mode in which it has hoen jnished forward up to the present time. I read from the report of the General Managsr, under date February 1st, 1883 ; in reference to the Eastern Section ho aays : — "On tho Eastern Division, owing to the broken nature of the country, its difficulty of access, and the neccssityofcxtensivosurrcys which consumed miicli time, very rapid progress with the vork of con- Btruction has beon impossible up to this time, but tho truck is now biid on tho main lino from Callander westward to the Sturgeon River, a distance of forty miles. Tho (jradi'ig is nearly completed for an addi- tional distance of twentj' miles, and is well advanced on a further section of ten miles. B-yond this much work has been done Ml the way of clearing and rond- making ; -,;?')0 men and 178 teams are now employed on this work and it is expected that tiio grading will be completed and tho track extended about 100 miles farther we^t during the present year. " On the Algoma Branch, which diverges from tho main lino a short distance west of the Wahnapi- tae River, and thence follows a very direct line to Algoma Mills on Lake Huron, a distance of 100 miles, the track has been laid from Alpoma eastward twenty-live miles ; and the grading on the remainder of tho line is so far advanced as to justify the belief that it will be completed and reiuly for operation by the end of the present season. This branch will afibrd a summer connection with the main line west from Thunder Bay, pending tbe completion of the Lake Suiierior section of the railway. One thousand and fifty men and eighty teams are cmidoycd on this brancli at tho present time. " During the past season active operations were commenced from Prince Arthur's Landing, on Thunder Bay eastward to the Nipigon River. The grading is already well advanced and several miles of track have been laid, and it is expected that by the end of the present year tho track will have been laid to a point noiirly, or quite 100 miles east from Prince Arthur's Landing. There are now employed on this section 1,150 men and 100 tcnins, and this force will be increased on the opening of navigation. " Tho preliminary surveys of the remainder of the lino north and east of Lake .Superior have been completed, and prove, beyond a doubt, the feasibility of tho lines sought by the Company very near the north shore of the lake. Tho final location of this line is proceeding rapidly, and it is the intention of the Company to vigorously attack the work at all accessible points in the early spring. "Much of tho work on this sect ion is very heavy, but keeping in view tho competitive value of the shortest possible through lino, ns well as the capitalized value of the saving in the cost of operation, the Company have here, as on ail other sections of their line, chosen tho shortest possible route, notwith- standing a largely increased immediate outlay." I may say, Sir, that tho progress, as was stated before, of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way, has boon entirely unprecedented. There has never,! think I am safe in saying, in the history of the world, been an instance in which the same amount of progre.ss was made in the construction of any line of railway, from one end, as on tho present occasion. The great rapidity of construction from Winnipeg westwards, as 1 have just said, moro than exceeds, I believe, the construction of any line of railway in a prairie country or otherwise, in any part of the world. It will be observed that ia fifty-throe consecutive working days, from the 20th July to 20th September, 105 ^^ miles of main track, and 8 -pj^^j miles of side tracks, a total of 174 i% miles were laid on the main line, being an average of 3.13 miles of main track for each working day, and, including sidings, 3.29 miles jx^r day. As I have said before, in tho history of the railway construction of the world, there has been no evidence of the i)rogross of the work being so rapid as in the present instance. Now, Sir, the next point that is of importance in relation to this matter, is the mode in which the road has been con- structed ; and I may say. Sir, that, on that point, I have evidence of a very high char- acter, which, I think, Avill be accepted by tho House. I have visited every iwrtion of the line from Thunder Bay to Winiiipeg, I have passed over the line from Winnipeg to a distance of 470 miles westward, which was constructed at tho time I visited it last autumn. The Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Kailwav has from time to time visited the works, and has stated, on his own observation, and on that of com- petent engineers employed under him, that this work was being carried on in a very admirable man \er. But Sir, I may venture to road to tho House an unolhcial letter, written while I was on the other side of the Atlantic by Mr. Sandford Fleming, late Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway— a gentleman whoso unbiassed opinion ftnd judgment, will, I behove, go very far in this House. Speaking of the mode in which the work is being constructed, Mr. Fleming says, untlor date of the 8th August, 1882 :— "I was deeply interested in all that I saw, and tho i)rot.-j'csP made in the Pacific Railway. T travelled twice over the whole line from Fort William to tho wosto ii end, about the 101th meridian, which, with the Pembina branch, makes :— West of Winnipeg 350 East of Selkirk 4IO Pembina Branch g5 _ . 845 Twice travelled over, making nearly 1,700 miles, on the Canadian Pacific Railway. ««j ",.il*l„"y "^'^f I"} ^"^^'^ i''*;'""?- "'V^ fleeply interested than my.solf, and I am bound to say the progress ■■'^^.Pm?"^''^*''^ of the work is far better than expected. ^?r« ii«ni^vl'!i^„!.S""J-''i''^'' *'''' ^^''"!'£'''^ "/" ''"'^^'''t'^. carrying out their part of tho contract; they bave displayed wondcriul energy and have boon signally successful. pi. wH " I congratulate the Government on the present state of affairs, and especially on Pacific Railway progress. " At Fort William I Icarncfl that the construction had practically commenced to Nipigon, and the shore of Lake Superior is covered with engineers to locate the line on tho different sections to Pic Kivcr. " On the prairie the road bed is being raised, as it should be, three, four and live feet above the prairie, with a view to working it in winter, and tho present force is laymg nearly 100 miles of track per month." I will add on this point, in addition to the statement of tho prosecution of this work which I havo given by ]\Ir. Sandford Fleming, tho evidonco of another gentleman, whoso namo in connciition witli railway work will render him an authority which will bo accepted in this House or out of it. I refer to Mr. (\ J. Brydgos. As to the railway, I cannot do better than produce tho description of it given by Mr. Brydges to a reporter of the \\ innipeg Times last August : — " The grading is being very well done, the banks being wide and of good height, the track kept well above the level of f. 3 prairie, no cuttings nnywhere, and good^ substantial pile openings to allow of tho free pas.-iiigi; of water where necessary. From Fiat Creek to Moose Jaw Jjono Creek, the grading will average about 17,')0() yards to the mile. 1 do not believe that any prairie road has ever been built better or In a more perfect and substantial manner, and very few roads, indeed, that I have seen in a long experience have been so well constructed in the first instance. The rails are all of steel, with an excellent joint having four bolts'' and nuts in each, and tho sleeper?) .average 2,610 per mile, thus securing ample strength and solidity, and tho whole is thoroughly well spiked throughout. There are now about 4,000 men em- ployed in building the road, and 2,000 horses." In addition, I may say that the number of sloepers — as any person familiar with rail- way construction will find — is far beyond tho average, alact which greatly injreases tho substantial character of tho I'oad ; that tho bridges aro being constructed of iron with stono masonry, and that everything has been done from tho commenceuient down to tho present timo to give tho Canadian Pacific Kailway the highest possible character as a first-class road in every respect. Although up to tho timo tho contract was made with the Company we had been unable to find any lino north of Lake Superior in which very severe grades were not encountered, although for a very con- siderable distance after leaving Black Rock, at tho head of Lake Nipigon, these grades varied from 70 to upwards of DO feet in tho mile, tho Company at a great cost had, as Mr. Fleming graphically stated, covered the country with engineers and surveyors, and notwithstanding the largo amount of money which had previously been expendeo. for surveys — they have been able to secure a lino which will carry us from Montreal to tho foot of tho Rocky Mountains without encountering any grado over 52 feet to the mile. Too great importance cannot be attached, as the House will readily see, to tho character of the grades on that portion of tho road, because that is tho portion of tho road upon which it will bo in tho interests of tho country that tho largest possible amount of trafiic should bo moved at the minimum of cost. I may say, with reference to that portion of the work which is under tho immediate charge of the Government, that the progress upon it has been very satisfactory. In making the contract with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company tho Government undertook to hand over tho works from Lake Superior to Rod River at the timo stated in the contract, which was July, 1883. They did not expect that probably it would be possible— as it has not often boon possible — to complete works of such great magnitude and attended with such dilUcultios as wero presentad., especially by Section " B," within tho time stated in tho contract; but the rails were laid previous to the time stated in tho contract, that was the first day of July, 1882, giv- ing facihties for tho transport of trafiic over the road from Thunder Bay to Winni- peg, and tho road would havo been in an advanced state of completion — but for the interruption of tho progress of construction by giving facilities to tho trafiic which oflered— by tho first day of July, of this year. Tho great importance of opening the line for traffic from Thunder Bay to Wirnipeg has induced the Government to make an arrangement with tho contractors, who havo been carrying on to completion the works in Section " B," and who wero engaged in carrying tho trafiic under an arrangement — as it was impossible fur ono party to undertake to o|x>rate tho road while it was being constructed by another — an arrangoniont was made for carrying that traffic during the past autumn by the contractors on tho road. An arrangenjcnt is now being made for the contractors to sin-ronder tho work in its present condition— about $300,000 of which contract remains to bo done in order to complete it — to transfer that to the Canadian I'acifi'! Railway Company, who will bo enabled to carry tho work to com- pletion under the ti'.rins of tho contract, and at tho sanio timo carry on tho great volumoof traffic which did offer last autunni, and which wo know will offer again with the opening of navigation, so as to give all the immediate facilities for that com- municatiou that aro possible to bo given. I niry say, in relatioH to that matter, that I stated to the House, on a former occasion, that we expected to make a largo saving, something liko $500,000 on Section " A," and something over $1,000,000 on Section " B ;" and I am glad to bo able to nay that those contracts will bo complotod, and that the charge upon the country will not exceed the amounts which I have stated. They will ho completed, with a very large margin, under the original amount which was contcuipUitod on the extension of the prices when the contracts were let. I am satisfied ^ tluit tills arrangement will bo one which will meet with the cordial approval of the House, because, without an increased cost to the country, avo will bo able to give the advantage co the people of Manitoba and the North- West of these increased facilities for communication with the older portions of Canada, at a much earlier period and under much more favorable circumstances than otlierwiso would have oc- curred. When I tell the House that last autumn, with the road in an incomplete state, and with only very indifferent facilities for carrying traflic, Messrs. Manning, Macclonuld &, Co., the contractors for that portion ot the road, wore able to carry goods from Toronto to Winnipeg in six days, whereas it was not unusual to require six weeks with all the efforts that could bo made over a continuous line of road from Toronto to Winnipeg, the importance and advantage to the country of haiing that lino oi)en for traflic, will bo so apparent as to require no further argument of mine to convince the House. Now, Sir, I may say hero, that so far as tho works under the charge of the Government in British Columbia are concerned, 1 am able to make an equally favorable statement. The contracts with the contractors of British Columbia require the completion of tho works by the 1st of July, 1885, and I have every assur- ance from tlio ene:ineers wlio are supervising those works, and from tho Chief Engineer here, that there is no doubt that those contracts will bo completed within the time stated. I am also able to say, with an additional year's experience, that my estimate as to the cost to the country of the completion of those works does not require to be modified or changed. I am at issue. Sir, to some extent with my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, as to what that cost is ; and I am not surprised that on a recent occasion he should have fortified his opinion by quoting the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in his favor. The House will remember that when the contract was ruade with tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company I stated that the amount to be paid to the Company in cash was §25,000,000, and tho amount of land to be granted was 25,000,000 acres, and that I estimated that tho 715 miles of road to bo completed by th'e Government, and handed over to the Company, that portion between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg on the one side, and between Savona's Ferry and Port Moody on the other — would cost $28,000,000. Some exception was taken to that statement, because I was told that I had not charged the Company with a suflicient amount for the surveys — that all tho expenditure made between Callander and Port Moody, and from Victoria to Port Simpson, extending over a country nearly 3,000 miles in length, and some 500 miles, at least in some parts, in width, ought to bo charged to that part of tlie work which wo were handing over to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Well, Sir, I dissent from that view of the case ; but with that mode of charging all the past expenditures — the expenditure on the Georgian Bay Branch, tho exjionditures on large parties of explorers Avho were sent out by the Government to explore the character of the lands, quite irrespective of any line of railway, except in order to give additional value to those lands with tho view of our utilizing them for the purpose of t-eeuring its construction — all these expenditures aro embraced, as my hon. friend knows, in the $35,000,000. But as I have said, it is not wonderful that the Conadinn Pacific liailway Company, when going into tho market for money, should have been glad to take tho highly (lolored statements of my hon. friend tho leader of the Opposi- tion in preference to mine. It was a' bettor statement to show that they could quote that high authority as proof of the correctness of their statement that they were re- ceiving $35,000,000 of completed road, instead of $28,000,000, as I stated. But when I state to the House that tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company ha\o already paid on the Eastern Section $1)4,178, and on tho Central Section, $171,7!")8, or a total of $505,976 for surveys in connection with the location of their lino, and that they expect to pay $300,000 in addition Ixjforo they have completed the locatifju of the whole line, or a total for surveys of $805,070, I think it will l)e seen that I could hardly, with i)ropriety, have charged those two portions of the road with all that $5,000,000 or $!),000,000 of ex- penditure which has boon Incurred during many years on surveys, and charged to the Canadian Pacific Railway at^count. That is the explanation I offer for the difibrcnce between the statement of my hon. friend the loader of tho Opposition, that tho com- pleted portions of the road should bo valued at $35,000,000, and my stalement which I Btill adhere to, subject to tho oxiilauation I have oflercd to the House, that they t(>.m re- whon I )aid on )65,976 to pay 10., or a jirioty, )()()foX- 1 to tho tlbreiico lio coiu- whioh I at they sliould be valued at $28,000,000. I may say, Sir, in addition to that, that the expondi* turo by the Canadian I'aciiic Railway Company for steamers will be no loss thau $850,000. Thoy have already made contracts for tho construction of three powerful steamen; to run between Algoma Mills and Thunder Bay. ^Ir. ^Mackenzie. On the water-stretches ? Sir CnATvi^Bs Tupphr. On the water-stretches ; and I quite concur that it is ahaost impossible to overrate tho importunco to tho country, during the three and a-lialf or four years that will bo required to complete the road'north of Lake Superior, of havin tho rapid, cheap and convenient lino of communication which those steamers wil iiOord. By tho construction of those steamers it is expected that tho voyage will be made from Algoma Mills to Prince Arthur's Landing witliin twenty-four hours, and immigrants, tliereforo, arriving at Quebec wili bo able to pass up to Thunder Bay at a <;omparatively small cost, and to be carried into the heart of our country without taking that long and circuitous, and, in more respecta tlian one, hazardous journey through the United States, which thoy now have to make to roach tho Territory. I mention that now in order to show the vigor that is being shown by tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company, not only to push forward the work of the contract made with the Government, but to provide every possible means to develop the country, and to establish tho cheajiest and most convenient communication through it. The distance from Callander Station, the initial point of tho Canadian Pacific Railway proper, vid Kicking liorso Pass to Port Moody, will be 2,528 miles, being a saving of 119 miles as compared with tho route by tho Yellow Head Pass, and of seventy-nine miles, as compared with that going through tho Kicking Horse Pass, and round by the Big Bend of the Columbia River, — that is, piercing the Selkirk range, after passing through the Kicking Horse Pass, and getting direct across througii to Kamloops, instead of taking tho circuitous route by the Yellow Head Pass, or the loss circuitous, but still very circuitous route by tho Big Bend of the Columbia. Now, Sir, I am aware that my hon. friend and predecessor will take great exception to tho grades. I know the strong view he has hold on former occasions, and the strong statements he made when the Bill passed through the House, with respect to giving power to the Govern- ment to change the route from the Yellow Head Pass to a more southerly one. I know that tho hon. gentleman holds tho strongest view with reference to the importance of grades ; and I (juite agree with him. There is no doubt that it would have been a very fiorious matter, had such a grade as '_ ')roix)sed to be adopted, 110 feet to tho mile, been found necessary on tho line between ti P) Rocky Mountains and the city of Montreal; but my hon. friend will, I think, agree with me, that it is of vastly less consequeu'^e to encounter a severe grade west of the foot of the Rocky Mountains, where wo car not expect that the volume of trailic, at any rate, for many years, will be at all so great as that for the transport of tho cereals of the groat North-West to tho tide water at Montreal. But the disadvantage of a grade of 110 feet to the mile will, I believe, be found to be more than counterbalanced by the shortened distance. I need not -detain the House at very much lengtli on that point, because the statement from the General INIanagor, v.hich I have already laid upon the Table of tho House, and which has been i)ublished, has dealt with it. I may be permitted, perhaps, briefly to refer to it: — " From the summit oftho Rocky Mountains, descending westerly to the Columbia Valley, a maximum ffradicnt of 90 feet to tho mile can bo secured, but it would involve excessive curvature, a large increase in distance and in cost, lit, d twice the time in construction, and inasmuch iis helping engines will be required in any case, I have thought it best to adopt a heavier and shorter grade, and tho Hhm-tost prac- ticable line This section of the line, us located, is very heavy work, which cannot be avoided ; but it is %'ery direct, and the heavy gradients (110 feet per mile) are contined within a comparatively abort dis- tance." I may say, Sir, that tho plan which I laid upon tho Table of the PIouso, indicating this grade, shows that, in going west, there is a distancoof live miles, in which a grade of 75 foot to tho mile is encountered, in reaching the summit of the Rocky Mountains, at Kicking Iloriso Pass. It is believed that grade can lie avoidetl, and every effort will bo made to avoid it. Then, in going west, there will be but one grade of 110 to the tniie, and that for a distance t)fonly twenty miles. In going cast, which, as I have before stated, is of less importance, because tho trafhc will undoubtedly be very much more limited, there will be two grades of IK) feet to tho mile for tho distance of twenty miles each— a distance whic;h, as overyonii iamiliar with raih\ay management knows, is extremely convenient for tho ajiplication of a i)ilot engine. Mr. Charlton.— Two distances of twenty miles east ? Sir Charles Tuppbr. — Yes ; two grades ; but only one, I ma> say to my hon. friend, f)f IIG feet to tlio luilo for twenty miles going west; but coming oast there ai©- two. 3Ir. Bi.AKE.— On the west side of the Pwockies ? Sir CnARLE3 Tirpra?. Yos ; I may say that in this respect the Canadian Pacific will compare most favorably with any of the other Pacific liailwaysJ. On the Northern Pacific, j;ra bents as hi^'h as 118 feet to l;>0 foot to tho mi)o aro used. It is well- known that on that portion of tho Union Pacific Railway bno, tho extension of it over tho Central Pacific Pailway, jrradients aro frequently encountere^l of IIG foot to the milo; and yet, as is well-known, very rapid time has been niado when occasion required over tho Union and Central I'acific Railwavs. I havo evidence and inmrmation with reference to a number of roads in tho tJni tod States performing an enormous amount of trafiic in which tho grades aro as sovoro as, or nioro so\ore, than those to which I havo alluded as likely to Ix) oncounterf d as tho best wo can do in passing through tho Kicking Ilorso Pass over tho Selkirk Range. But, Sir, thero IS not only tho having in distance that is important, tho saving in time, the saving inthocostof transjKtrtof frei^rht and passengers whith will bo very much less by the shorter lino — 79 miles shorter than by tho Big Bond of tho Columbia — it will not be only the saving in tho cost of transjiort of freight and passengers that will occur, but a most important advantage to bo gained by tho country is that, by tho Yellow Head Pass, wo comedown through a very unattractive country, to say tho least, all tho way to Kamloops, and from tlio time ycu entered tiio Rocky Mountains at thoYellow Head Pass until you had gone down to Port Moody, there was comparatively littlo country that was available for any extensive settlement ; whereas, as my hon. friends from British Columbia can point out much more fully and accurately than lean, tho line now proposed by tho Kicking Horso Pass and tho Selkirk Range will carry us througa the kamloops country where there is the largest portion of 13ritish Columbia available for settlement. Tho value to the country, tho value to the Government of tho belt of land along that line will bo incalculably greater than along the lino which was previously projected, and I am satisfied that tho more tho question is examined, the more it will be found in *,he interests of Cadada that this shorter line should bo adopted. By the adoption of this shorter lino, and by the construction of the Canadian I'acific Railway in tho thorough and eflioiont manner in which it is being constructed, wo believe wo shall not only bo able to ofler tho best and most available line of communication to the Pacific Ocean, tlio cheai^jst, best and shortest route for even the inhabitants of New York, but quite possibly to bring a large portion of tho trafiic between Chicago and San Francisco over the Canadian Pacific Railway. And, as a national lino, it is impossible to overrate the importance of having the most direct and rapid line of communication, competing, as we '•e, as hon. gentlemen know, with tho Northern Pacific Railway, some few hundred miles only to f .10 south of us, and where— I should not be glad to say, but I am able to say — much more severe grades will bo encountered than through the route to which I have alluded. Then the location has been approved except from tho Wanapitae River to the Nepigon River on the Eastern Section, a distancoof 483 miles. As I have already told the House, the Government have been extremely gratified to learn that the large expenditure and great eflbrts made by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have enabled them to locate a line, so far as all the diffi«ulties to be en- countered are concerned, as they aro now known, infinitely superior to any that the Government had been able to obtain through that district, and, as I havo already stated, a line which will enable us to pass from the foot of the Rocky Mountains to Montreal without encountering any grade as high as 53 feet to the mile. Parties are now being engaged at both ends of this section of 483 miles, and that location will be completed during the ensuing season, and not only have very improved grades been obtaineid, but tho character of the country has been found to surpass anything we had previously supposed. The region that is now pierced by the lino already in operation to tho Sturgeon River opens up one of the finest timber districts to be found in any part of Canada, and tho mineral wealth that is now being developed on tho line from tho north of Lake Suporior to Prince Arthur's Landing, promises at an early day to be a source of onormous wealth to tho country, and to furnish a very largo amount of traffic to tho Canadian Pacific Railway. Then from tho crossing of the South Saskatchewan to Savona's Ferry 6G0 miles yet remains to be located. I should not say remain to bo located, because 300 miles of that, to tho summit of Kicking Horse Pass is now located, all but tho completion of the plans, and ready for tho ap- proval of tho Government; and, as I stated before, if any'unforseen dilKculty should arise when we come to have the line presented beyond the Kicking Horso Pass, up to the point whore wo do not encounter theco heavy grades any more difficulty than is holdout by Maior Rogers to the Comi>any in piercing the &)lkirk Range, it will be quite practicable ntill to tuke tlio location round by the Bi;^ Bend of tho Columbia, nnd shorten the lino considerably conipareoon. I'artico, to n^ect from the cast und west, are alraady going to work on this remaining distance from tho summit of the Rocky Mountains 'to Kam- loops, and it is ex[X3cte or the whole territory for so many years, but only that portion which belongs to these particular works— up to the present date is $20,206,883 for the two sections. The total outlay, including the casli subsidy paid by tho Government to date, is therefore, $28,140,894. I may noAV remark in passing. Sir, that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have expended, down to the 31st March on the construction of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way and branches west of Callander, without any reforenco to the sections in this partof the country, the sum of $24,571,412. I got this inibrmatiou by telegraphic communication to-day from Mr. Drinkwater, the Secretary of the Company, and I give it to the House, because, as I have stated before, I endeavor, as fast as I obtain xnformation in connection with this important work, to lay it as fully as is in my 8 of power before the House for consideration. The line in operation west Winnipeg extends to Swiit Current, a distance of 512 miles. Now, Sir, having given a general outline of the amount of work performed, and of the cost to the country of this work, so far as it has proceeded, I digress a little for the purpose of noting, more briefly than I would have otherwise done, in oonsequenco of the condition of my health, some remarks that were made by my hon. friend th& leader of the Opposition. I observe, Sir, that great anxiety has been exhibited by — I will not say the organ of the hon. gentleman, but leading organs of public opinion representing the views of hon. gentlemen opposit-e— lest I, or the Government, should allow the deeply interesting speeches of my hon. friend, on tv.'o occasiong during th© present Session, respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, to pass unchallenged — great anxiety seems to bo manifested lost these speeches, which were held to be overwhelm' ing and unans^verablo indictments of the Government, should pass unnoticed by this side of the House. Bu!^, Sir, I do not know that there is any particular necessity for answering tliose speeches at all I mean no disrespect to my hon. friend in saying that, because everybody knows that the manner in which ho devotes himself to thia question, and the care with which he acquaints himself with everything connected with it, render the views he presents to the House upon it of very great importance. Bat there is a sufficient reason why no answer v/as required ; his speeches have been answered already. The hon. gentleman, it is true,brought the prospectus of the Canadian Pacific Railway here, and painted the position and prospects of that great work before the House, and on the wings of the press, before the country, in a still more highly colored form than even th ^ Company have ventured to pi*esent *hom. But I say I am not aware that any answer is required, for the simple reason that, glowing as was the Eicture which my hon. friend presented to the house as to the enormous bargain that ad been obtained by this company at the cost of the country ; vivid as was the picture the hon. gentleman drew of the untold millions of profit this Company was going to make out of the country — vivid as his picture was, I say, it was pal© in com- parison with that which the hon. gentleman delivered a year l>efore. It was, in na sense, as highly colored as the statement whicli the hon. gentleman made with equal ability, and equal earnestness, on the other side of the House last Session. 'When I call the attention of the House to the fact that a year ago, nndor the manipulation ot' my hon. friend, the land was worth $3 to 34 an acre, and tliat now he calculated it to bo worth only S2.G8 per acre, it will be seen that, instead of increasing the strength oC his statement, ho has greatly decreased it. But of this strong and highly colored statement, delivered by the hon. gen-lemanon the floor of Parliament, and distributed by the press all over the country, what was the result ? Why, the hon. gentleman, got his answer. Ho got his answer in the fact tiiat in his own Province, in the centre of his influence, a large and overwhelming majority of the ijeopio sent gentlen^a. gentleman knows, the rod disapixjarcd. I will not say it disappeared entirely from the picture, but the red paled before the blue. And in the Province of Ontario with the great (luestion of Provincial rights, the great Boundary question, to agitato, excite and influence the i)ti(»j)le, even there the hon. gentleman was unable to got anything like an equal projiortion uf the representatives of that Province to condemn the con- tract for th(> Canadian Pacific Radway. So, Sir, I say if I had allowed his speech to pass unanswered by myself, ii noulo still not have been unanswered, Ixwauso ho haa iiad that best and most ettective of all answers— the verdict of a free and intelligent poojilo, ujion a statement of the case* far stronger tlian that which the hon. gentleman now, with the prosjKictus of the Canadian Pacific Railway in his Imnds, was aMo to make before this House. Sir, what is his statement? The hon. gentleman eays th» of Canadian Pacific Railway Company have made a profit, tliat is now demonstrable from the prospectus tliey liave published, and from tlie evidence he has, that that profit amoinits to some $37,000,000, whi ^h ho malves up in this way. He says it is ascertained, by the land sales of the Canadian Pacific Railway, tliat the present value of the land is $2.G8 per acre, and in consequence the Government, in the 25,000,000 acres of land, pay the Comi)any $67,000,000. Ho says the Company's receints would, 1i)y their subsidy of $25,000,000, Government Railways $35,000,0'00, hicluding the $6,000,000 on surveys, whicli I have shown, have not been of much value to the Cana- dian Pacific Railway Company, althoupth thev put thorn in their prospectus, and the proceeds of the lands already sold, $17,300,000, or a total of $77,300,000. The value of the unsold lands will be $49,500,000. making the total receipts $126,800,000. Now, Sir, -vvhen I was discussing the question of the Canadian Pacific Railway contract in this House in the first instance, I made a calculation based upon SI per acre for the lands. What authority had I for considering that the lands might fairly be calculated at $1 per acre ; I had, in the first place, a very remarkable statement bearing upon that tjuestion, made by the late hon. Minister of Finance in his place in this House. Under liie contract made with Mr. Foster for the construction of the Georgian Bay Branch, lie was to receive from the Government a certain amount of money, and 20,000 acres of land per mile for this road. As my hon. friend then leader of the Government stated, the Government had no lands except in the North-AVest, and the 20,000 acres per mile had therefore to be land in the North-'\'''ost. Mr. Foster endeavored, after he made that contract with the Government, to carry it out. He went to New York, and tried to get money in England, but was unable to obtain the means of carrying out his contract He came back to the Government, and, as was explained by the late Minister of Finance, he stated to tnem : " If you will give me 20 cts. an acre, and give me the money, I will give you the land and carry out your contract; but they refused to do it. The late Government, therefore, refused to consider the land in the North-West, >vhen the whole country was open to choose and select from — to the ex- tent of 1,500,000 acres — worth 20 cts. an acre, and my hon. friend the leader of the late •Government gave a very sufiicient reason for the course, which they then adopted — which was, that so remote was the country, and so difficult of access at that time, that it was not easy to obtain settlement, and that it Avould not i)ay jiersons to go thereand settle. But I hold in my hand a return of all the land sold from 1872 — the time the <'ountry came into our possession — down to 18S0. "What was the value of the land iu the then condition of the country? This return shows that in the whole of that period, the Govormont had disposed of i i^reemptions and in sales, for scrip and cash, 1,929,619 acrr.,'5 of land. How much money did thoy receive? They received $251,- 777.50, and there wr.s owing to them $35(),7()1.2r), or, in all, cash to the amount of $608,538.73— if they had obtained it. How much was that equal to per acre ? It was «qual to 31 J cts. ytor acre. Mr. Mackenzie.— That is embracing the preemption ? Sir Charles Ti-itek. — Yes, endjracing the preemption. The gross amount re- ■coivod, or to bo received — for a groat deal of it was on ciedit, as I have explained — for the preempted lands, and for tlie lanJs sold for scrij) and casli, was only 31 J cents per acre; and when the expenses wore in ken off, it would bo brought down to 20 cents per acre, Mr. CnARLTON. — You treat the scrip as cash. Sir Chaki.es Tuppeij. — I treat the scrip as cash. The scrip and cash, in all, amounted to less than $1 ,000,000. Tinder those i!r('umstan('es, it tlid not apixmr very much out of the way, with the evidence we luid, t28,000,000. That makes a total of $120,- 000,000. But suppose the hon. gentleman could induce anybody to believe that it would be right to charge that contract with $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 expended in sui veys away to Port Simpson and Bute Inlet, and from James to Hudson Bays, all over the country in every direction, it would only make $127,000,000. Now that, accord- ing to the hon. gentleman's own showing, is tho outside amount that he considers ho can charge the Government for the construction of that work. It is tho hon. gentle- man's own estimate of the cost. Supposing we paid the $127,000,000, supposing wo accept his statement of the value of tho land — I shall show by-and-byo wiiat an ex- traordinary statement it is — what would it amount to ? It would only furnish tlio money that the hoa. gentleman himself, after years of examination, declared this country would have to pay for the construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway. The hon. gentleman would now mako us believe that wo had made an extravagant bar- gain with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, that we had made them a present of $37,000,000. If that was the case no one is so much to blamo as tho hon. gentleman himself. If we did not mako a better bargain, it Avas because tho Government of which he was long a member, decried tho possibility of constructing tho Canadian Pacific Railway at all within any reasonable period, because tho lion, gentknuan could not be made to believe in tho value of tho lands of that country. If wo did not rr.ake a better bargain, none are more responsible than those gentlemen, who, when the Government askeil their support to enable them to use 100,000,000 acres of laud in the North- West to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway, obstructed them at every possible turn. We hojiod, when wo made this contract, that wo were going to lift tho Canadian Pacific Railway question out of tho arena of party i:)olitics alto- gather. Wo believed that one of tho groat difiiculties wo would have, as a Govern- ment, in going on with tho work, was the importance to hon. gcntlomon in Oppo.sition of obstructing us at every turn, and preventing our being able to proceed with the work as vigorously as necessary ; and wohoixid, when making a contract with a Com- pany, composed especially of tho hon. gentleman's own friends, that we should have reached that point in the consideration of the question that wotild have taken it out of tho arena of party politics. AVo were unfortunately not able to do that. When I was here asking the House to assist me, as Minister of Railways, in going on with the construction of that work ; when I stated, with the view of appeasing all hostility of hon. gentlemen opposite to the construction of that ^reat work at all, that I proposed, in the firbt instance, to open tip the prairie district of the country, which tho hon. gentleman now says should have been opened up vigorously by tho Govarnment in the first instance, did my hon. friend support mo ? No ; he treated the road I was pro- posing to build es unworthy the n;ime of a railway. I was compelled to admit, and did admit, that I was proposing to construct the cheapest possible railroad in tho first inctance, in order to open up the country for settlement — m order to get ixsoplo into it who wovdd be able to sustain a railway. The hon. gentleman on that occasion said :— "Again, 'if course, tho through truffle depends on tno road being first-class, ami wo must remember that, after wo have spent all tho hon. Minister proposes, wo shall have, not a Pacifici hut a colonization road." Ho condemned my plan to build a prairie road for tho purpose of getting in settlers. What did he further say ? Ho told the House, and he tokl tho country, tlirough the medium of tho press, of tho danger that was being incurred through tho enormous charactor of tho work that this Government was entering upon, and' having had tho advantage of the calculations made by hiscclleaguo, the hon. Minister of Public Works, my predecessoi, ho gave to this House a careful and accurate calculation of what— not a colonization railway, but a Canadian Pacific Railway worthy of the name, would cost tho people of this country. Ho said : — "AcoordinK to the old system of construction, that Central Section would cost, including tho other Item I have mentioned, altogether over $12,300,1100, leaving out entirely both ends.'' Sothat the hon. gentleman himself has declared, in the most formal manner, after yoarsof consideration, after ten years of examination of this question with all that astuteness wliich tho hon. gentleman brings to bear upon every question that conies before this House, that the prairio section of tho lino would cost $42,500,000, «harging It with the $6,000,000 previously spent on the surveys. What more did ho say ? Why, Sir, he days :— T , '.' ^^''m* "'■'' 'J"* ""','? *" "".i^^ $« 000,000 is, as I have stated, tho cost from Edmonton to Burrard Inlet on the west ; and from Port William to Nipissing on tho oast, tho hon. member for Lambton osti- inates at a length of about 050 miles. ' $ T i\ T 11 And wo still find i ; to be GoO milos. "and a cost of $32,500,000. Thus the ends make np togetber $77,000,000, tho centre and tho past CTMH. dlture $42,500,000, ma cius a total of $12(),000,OU,000, 1 suppose, for contingencies to that, and put it at $121,500,000. And yet the hon. gentlempn, now that he knows that it is being constructed as a first-class road, now that he kno>vs there is no road on this con- tinent that will be a better road than the Canadian Pacific Railway, when it is com- pleted as it is now being constructed, must admit that instead of there being any such margin of profit as he has intimated, and taking it by his own estimates, tho amount at which Government has secured the construction of the road is a fair and reasonable one. Because it must not be forgotten thatmany of the other calculations of hon. gentle- men on both sides of this House always admitted that for many years to come it would be impossible to operate a through line when constructed without doing it at a con- siderable cost. Let me say a word hero as to this $35,000,000 that the hon. gentleman says the Government gave the Company for the construction of that road. I say there is not'an intelligent man in this Ilouse, there is not an hon. gentleman on either side of this House, that will not say that it would have been doing a wise thing in the interests of this country when we had completed that 715 miles of rai? way if we could have induced parties with ample resources to stock and operate the road without making any charge upon us for doing so ; so that the $35,000,000 was wisely expended 60 far as the interests of the public and the country were concerned, because the hon. gentleman knows that tho companies and the parties with whom he was co-operating shrank from the contemplation of that portion of the Canadian Pacific Railway from the foot of the Rocky Mountains down to the shores of Port Moody on the Pacific Ocean. Well, Sir, let me take the hon. gentleman in another way. As I have said, we have the advantage, and we had the groat advantage, in making this contract, of having the views of hon. gentlemen opposite as to what it would be wise and judicious for us to offer to any i)erdon to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway ; Ave had the fact that they had invited tenders all over the world, in Great Britain, in tho United States, wherever there was the elightost chance of getting a tender accepted — they had mado an absolute ofler of $10,000 cash per mile and 20,000 acres of land per mila They said to tho parties, not how much loss land will you do it for, but how much money must we pay you 4 i)or cent, on in order to induce you to construct the Cana- dian Pacific Railway along with tho $10,000 cash and the 20,000 acres of land per mile ? Now, Sir, the length of road at that time consisted of 2,027 milos of the main lino ; the i'embina branch, eighty-five miles, the Georgian Bay Branch, eight-five miles, making altogether 2,797 milos of road as projected by tho hon. gentlemen ojiposite. The cash subsidy of $10,000 jku' mile that they offered, and offered without bemg able to get a bid from any jKu-son, was enual to $27,970,000 in cash. The laud grant of 10,000 acres I'er mile, at $2.(kS per aero, the price that the hon. gentleman declares this land was worth, amounts to $140,019,200. Now, I think as to the addi- tional amount, I am safe in taking tho hon. goutleman's own estimate of the Foster contract. In the Foster contract the lion, gentioman bound himself to pay 4 per cent. on $7,400 per mile for twenty-live years ; that applied to the Canadian Pacific Railway would have given a further sum in cash to bo paid by Canada of $20,097,500, or, in all, $48,947,500 in cash, $149,919,200 in land, at $2.08 an acre, making a grand total of $198,800,700. Now, Sir, I ask tho hon. gentleman whether wo are not in a position to congratulate tho people of this country for having deprived him and his friends of au opportunity of securing the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway at a cost to this country of $198,8v> ernment, and cutting oS from the Dominion that valuable Province on the Pacific Coast ? I ask the hon. gentleman whether he would have handed over, at those enormous figures which he has mentioned, the construction of the prairie section, and have left poor Canada to have constructed such sections of the line as would be un- f)rofitable, and to have left us for an indefiite period to carry our traffic over American inos to Chicago, and find a seaport at New York, instead of by the great natioral line of inter-communication, by which passengers and freight would be carried from one end of the Dominion to the other, through our own country, over our own roaa, and independent of foreign lines? I have told the House what the effect would be even of opening the lino from Lake Superior to Winnipeg on the means of transportation, and tho progress and development of the great North-West. The hon. gentleman must see that at this hour of the day to come back with this feeble, impcitent and miserable policy, as I think I may fairly term it, of abandoning the groat national line of communication that is to give us intercourse rapidly and cheaply between the different i)ortions of tho Dominion, and hand over the work to a company to build at enormous figures nothing more than the prairie section, is trifling with tho intelli- gence of tliis House and with the intelligence of the people of this country. But I will tako the hon. gentleman for a moment in another way. He says it is not certain but that tho construction of branches will bo attended with danger. Danger to whom ? Is it dangerous to Canada to haveoitened up at a largo expenditure various lines of communication through the North- West and other sections of the Dominion? Is it dangerous to Canada to have the Algoma Branch constructed, which is going to give us within a year from to-day, a line by which tralhc can pass very cheaply through tho heart of tho country instead of by a circuitous route, 600 or 700 miles longer, through the United States ? It is impossible for any one to over-rate the value to the North- West of tho construction of tho Algoma Branch during the short period of three or four years before ihe line along tho north shore of Lake Superior will be completed. Not only so, but it is important to look at tho position of tho older por- tions of Canada. Look at tho position of this portion of tho country engaged in manu- facturing products, many of which find a market in the North- West, and the advantage to the people in tho older portions of the country of having this cheap and rapid inter- communication between that great North-Wost country which is being so rapidly developed and their OAvn manufacturing industries. Anything in a contrary direction wil' not, in my judgment, boar a moment's consideration. But suppose those branches are carried out, and there is no question that tho expenditure involved in carrying to completion tho roads now rapidly to be proceeded with in the shape of branches, will cost the Canadian Pacific Railway $20,000 per mile Mr. Bi-AKu. Hear, hoar. Sir Charles TupPBR. And with what result, Sir? Why, Sir, can they give the value of $2.68 an acre to every acre of land of their own without piving us the same value for our land? If, Sir, wo have given them $67,000,00' i 25,000,000 acres of land, tiioy have ^iven us $67,000,000 by tho construi^cion of the road, making our land worth $2.68 alongsido of their own ; and there is nothing but cause for tho most profound gratification on tho part of tho Hout;<), on account of the position in which wo stand in relation to this question. But, Sir, the hon. gentleman makes up his $127,000,000 by $25,000,000 in cash, $35,000,000 in road completed, and $67,000,000 for land, wliich makes $127,000,000. " Well," he says, "I have figured it out completely. I have made a close calculation. 1 Know to the hundredth part of a cent what the construction of this work is going to cost tho Company ; and I find " Mr Blake. Hear, hear. Sir Chaklbs Tupper. Well, when I say that, I am speaking advisedly. I am show- ing that tho hon. gentleman makes a close and elaborate calculation, and I think that ho would tako into consideration the humlredth part of a cent if that hundnulth j)art of a cent would make a little larger his amount as paid by the Government to tho Canadian Pacific Hailway Company. Well, Sir, tako it in that way, and ho says ho has discovered that this road, lor wliich they are receiving $127,000,000, will only cost $00,000,000 to construi^t it; tlio Company have only got to pay $00,000,000, and he has taken note of tho price at v.hich thcny are selling their stock, and gone minutolv into all their monetary caUnilationa, and come to the conclusion that tho road will cost them, as I have said, $1*0,000,000. Well, Sir, that just gives him exactly a profit of $37,000,000; but, Sir, there is another side to tho story. How much does tho hon. mLi/^^ 14 f pcnlloman suppose that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company up to toy the Government and for the Government. I give that to tho l»on. gcntlomau as another evidence of the position of this Comjmny in relation to this quostion. Now, Sir, I havo no hesitation in venturing the statomont that if the Canadian I'acific Railway Com- pany proceed as they liavo proceedud in the North-AVest, if they go on with tho construction of branchos as they have gone on, and as they must go on if they are h $2.08 an acre— land which going to make all their land worth is now from 100 to 250 I miles away from tho railway and their road— if they do this, tlien I say that tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company will have paid on that road from end to end and 16 on the branches, which give the land that value, every dollar of the $25,000,000 for the equipment of the line — for the rolling stock, shops, tools, permanent stations, elevators, harbors and wharves, and the various things with which they are obliged to furnish themselves — and so that $25,000,000 of the hon. gentleman's calculation will disappear, and of his $37,000,000 of profit, I thus knock oflF $25,000,000 without the slightest hesitation for the rolling stock equipment they will be obliged to provide. Now, the hon. gentleman may say: "You must not charge this twice ; you must not first charge the road with the amount to build and equip it, and then charge the equip- ment besides." I do not intend to do so ; but — and I will draw the hon. gentleman's attention to this — what are the two ends to cost? He himself answered that very pertinent question. He put the first cost of the two ends of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way at $77,000,000, so that the hon. gentleman will see that it will take $10,000,000 more than all they get for the land to build the two ends, according to his own calcu- lations ; and, I think. Sir, under these circumstances, that the hon. gentleman's calcu- lations of profits vill be ^ound very much at fault But, suppose we put the construc- tion of tlio Lake "uperior section at $30,000 per mile without equipment ; that would be $20,000,000, and 450 miles of the mountain section at $70,000 per mile, without equipment, would bo $31,500,000, or without equipment, a total of $51,500,000, that they would have to pay. An equipment, as I have stated, costing $25,000,000, would bring it up to $70,500,000 that they must pay, and deduct that from the $90,000,000 and you have just $13,500,000, or $15,000 per mile left to apply to the prairie section, and I think, Sir, that after the hon. gentleman's own estimate of $42,000,000 for the prairie section, ho will not consider that a very extravagant estimate. Now, Sir, I will take the hon. gentleman in another way. I have shown the absurdity — and he must excuse me for using so strong a term — I have shown the absurdity of the calculation of $2.68 per acre, because I have shown that the mode in which we arrive at it is by taking the total amount that they have received, irrespective of the expenditure that they will have to make for surveying — and they have that country covered with explorers and surveyors in connection with the work — I say irre- spective of the cost to the Company, the hon. gentleman is only ablo to put the amount of land that they have sold at $2.68, by taking in all that land made valuable by the construction of the branches in Southern Manitoba, by taking all the land that is valuable running out from Winnipeg to Moose Jaw Creek; and, Sir, in passing I wish to correct an error into which hon. gentlemen opjjosite fell as to the necessity of going into Southern Manitoba to get land, becauij«e it could not be obtained in the twenty-four inile belt — I may be mis- taken — it may be that it was that great organ of public opinion the Globe newspaper, but it was stated that they are rejecting a great part of these lands along the line of the railway. Why, Sir, they have not rejected an acre. I do not mean to say that there may not be some spots found unfir for settlement, or about which question might arise, but they have calculated all that was valuable of the odd sections which were not already alienated,or against which some claim against the Crown had not been established. I am happy to say that it is the settler who pour into that country, and get land and acquire rights in connection with these lands, that has created any difficulty with reference to their obtaining their quota of lands within the twenty-four mile belt. But, if they can only obtain $2.68 within the twenty-four miles of the railway in Southern Manitoba whatcan they hoi:K3 to obtain for 17,000,000 of acres, a large portion of which must bo found between the parallel of the fifty-second and fifty-fourth north latitude. V/hy, I say there is no railway to-day — neither the Canadian Pacific Rail- way or any other— from within 100 to 250 miles of these lands. There is but one way, and the hon. gentleman knows therefore, that to-day it would pay the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, looking to the long period that must elapse before it is pes- Bible to obtain the cash and utilize it for tho sale of these lands— it would pay them, if they hoped to secure the lands for immediate or early settlement to take $1 an acre for the remaining lands. And what would that make? It would make, with the amount they have received, and the amount they would receive, $36,000,000 instead of $67,000,000, or knock off $31,000,000 of the profits of tho hon. gentleman, which he is able on paper to place in the pockets of tho Canadian Pacific Railway. 1 believe. Sir, that tiie hon. gentleman's services have been of ve.y great value to that Company. The discussion which took place between tlie hon. gentleman and myself gave a very valuable impulse to tho stocks of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company on a former occasion, and I am sorry to say that it gave a corresponding drop to the Grand Trunk stocks in the London money market; because when it was found that the hon. gentle- men on both sides of tho House joined in treating as enemies of Canada anybody who would Beok to injure tho prosperity of our groat national work, it would bo seen that im 16 the sudden tumble which had taken place in certain stocks was caused by parties who, I believe, were standing behind the hon. gentleman and furnished him with the calculations which he made. Now, Sir, I do not intend to say much more in relation to that; but I will turn my attention for a single moment to another very important point which the hon. gentleman raised in connection with this discussion. He said that tlie.se branches are going to be fi aught with danger to this country, and why ? He said they would go on and acquire these branches at their own cost, and when it came to the question of having their tolls reduced because of their protits being 10 per cent, of the capital they have expended, wo will not l)e able to reduce their rates for the simple reason that the expenditure of operating these branches will be a burthen upon the main line, and they will require to tako all the profits of the main line to make up the profits of the branches. Does not the hon. gentleman see that he is making the strimgest (-aso possible for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company ? They cannot construct a mile of any branch— and they are doing it at their own cost, without every mile they construct being of groat money value to the Dominion of Canada-, because it is ojxming settlement and doubling and treblirg the value of lands that would otherwise ren.ain unsettled and unsold on the part of the Government; and the hon. gentleman must see, therefore, that it is a (lerfectly legitimate operation. He objects again to their selling their bonds for d, and he asks with well-feigned innocence — for I cannot believe for a single rioment that the hon. gentleman was serious when he was propounding such an extraordinary proposition to the House — he asks whether *ve are to be charged par for these bonds when they sell at 60. Why, of course, we are. Did the hon. gentleman ever hear of any portion of a railway being built by bonds that the discount on the bonds of the company actually used for the construc- tioa of the railway was not cliarged to the capital ? Tslr. Blake. — But they are not bonds. It is stock. Sir Charles Tupper. — They are not bonds, and I can assure the hon. gentleman that he and every Canadian may thank (jrod tiiat tliey are not. I will tell him why. If they were bonds, when this great national work was coriplotod, it Avould be in the position that the Union Pacific, the Central Pacific and the Northern Pacific, and those interoceanic lines of railway were in. That having a bonded debt of an enormous amount hanging upon it upon which interest must bo paid, the interest must be found by obtaining it from the traffic of the road, because it is a mandatory claim which must bo met, or the road will pass out of the lands of its possessors, whereas, if the money is raised by the sale of stock, as it is in the present instance, the hon. gentle- man will see that although they pay —and justly pay — interest on the stock during the process ')f construction, the moment the construction is completed there is no man- datory debt upon the property — the property is not compelled to raise a single dollar of interest, because all the interest that has to be paid is going into the jiockets of the owners of the work it.solf— there is no mortgage of any kind. And what is the result? The result is that in Canada wo shall bo able to point to a great intor-ocoanic lino of Canadian Pacific Railway that can compose, as I said before, even between San Fran- cisco and Chicago for the transport of tho traffic of the Pacific coast down through a lai^e portion of country, for tho reason tliat having issued na bonds, having only issued stock, the road is entirely in an independent position — in a position to deal by com- petition with other roads in a manner that no road could deal if it had a heavy bonded debt upon it — if it had a nn.rtgage upon it and had to raise tli^ interest under any cir- cumstances. The hon. gen Jeman says that he deplores the fact. He says we led the people to expect that capi xal was going to be brought into tiiis country, and he says there has been no capital brought in. Who prevented it coming in ? The enemies of Canada, the enemies of tie Canadian Pacific Railway prevented it, and what is the fact? T'he fact is that if w .» had not had the good fortune to have made this contract with men of enormous personal wealth the S(!home would have broken down, and would have gone to ruin under the hostility it had to encounter in Canada and out of Canada. Wehad the advantaKf'Of the fact that tho contract was made with men who rv ere prepared to do not wiiat hon. gontlemon opposite told us would bo done when the con- tract was made. T!i ^y said a gigantic stock-jobbing operation will bo performed; bonds and shares will bo floated and these men will disappear without incurring tho slightest responsibi'.ity or having the slighest trouble in connection with that work. But whore are W3 to-day? We are within a short period of the completion of tho work. They are ] lodged that the work shall bo finished from end to end by Decem- ber, 1886. It is n3arly half completed now, and wo stand in this position: That there is not a man who went into the contract but stands there to-day — not a man who went into thf contract who did not dip his hands deep into hia own pockets to furniuh tho It means to carry on this national enterprise to its present position. -T do not nndarstanr] the hon. gentleman when ho says, on the one hand, that ho thinks it would be desir- able to bring foreign capital into tho country, and yet the moment the attempt is made and stock is put on tho money market of tho world tho hon. gentleman complains, and he would have the Government interpose to forbid them to sell at less than par because ho fears it is going to bo treated as capital, when we come to consider the question of tolls on this road. I need not tell the hon. gentleman tha.^ it would be better to build the road if they only got 50 cts. on the dollar for tho stoc'-, in the mode in which it is proposed to build it, than to mortgage this great railway, and put it in a much less favorable position to compete with the other lines of in ',er-oceanio com- munication. I do not think I need elaborate that sulyect. I on]y wanted to draw attention to the incongruous character of tho hon. gentleman's remarks, and of the analysis of this question which he gave to tho House. I do not blame the hon. gentle- man, standing as he did face to face wivh the fact that at the end of two years we Btood on tho great vantage ground of being able to claim before the House and the rnnntry, that there wns not a .single point upon which wo had urged tho adoption ot the contract as to which our predictions have not been realiiied. I am not surprised that he found it difficult to keep within tho limit of fair and legitim'ate discussion of this question, when oven with his microscopic inspection ho could not find a spot or a speck on which he could found a jvist comjilaint. New, Sir, I need not discuss very fully the question of tarifis,f,lthough tho hon. gentleman attached, as I attach, very great importance to that point. Lut I might, say at the outset that it would be utterly impossible — it could not bo expected — no such thing has ever occurred anywhere as a great line of railway rapidly constructed through an unpeopled country being operated except upon a relatively high tariff. Every person knows that you cannot carry freight at a similar rate in pro|X)rtion to the mcreased volume you have to carry up to the carrying capacity, and that where you have to carry it long distances through a sparsely settled country you must nocessi^-rily have f^ tariff which is tolerably high. But hon. gentlemen will observe that this tariff is constructed as all such tariffs must be constructed, upon what is called tho parabolic curve, that is, it moves up rapidly at first and then more slowly in the longer distances. You must have high charges for short distances in order to recoup yourself for the small charges that must apply to the long distances. I might mention in this connection that I have received a severe criticism of this tariff— and it is the only severe criticism which I have received — from Mr. Brydges, as President of the Winni^wg Board of Trade. But I notice that his complaint is confined to the first, second, third and fourth classes of goods — tliatis, shelf goods, groceries, dry-goods, and thinas of that kind. But he is singularly silent as regards tlio great features of a tariiJ" of this kind — constructed in the interests of the country — and that is the cost of carrjdng settlors' effects, agricultural implements, fuel, lumber, grain and those other things up.on which you must make an exceptional- ly low tariff, or it would bo utterly impossible to people the remote sections of the North- West. I do not hesitate to say that tho tariff which is now on the Table of the House cannot pay tho Canadian Pacific Railway, and will not pay them for a con- siderable number of years. It would bo impossible, until a large number of people go into that country, to construct a Tariff which would pay them. Because the climatic difficulties of tho country aro such that I have no hesitation in saying that the cost of hauling per ton per mile would be four or five times as groat in the North- West in the present sparsely settled condition of tho country and tho small amount of traffic, as it would be on the Grand Trunk Railway wi^^h the enormous amount of traffic which I am glad to say it is carrying, and the milder climate in which it operates. The House will excuse mo if, instead of reading a comparison of tho tariff, I will save my- self and the time of tho House by handing it to tho reporter. Hon. gentlemen will see by comp2,ring the traffic tariff of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way with tho Atchison, Topoka, and Santa Fe, tho N^orthern Pacific Railway, tho one which runs through tho same description of country, but at some distance from it, the Union Pacific Railway, and tho 8t. Paul, Minneapolis, and IVIanitoba Railway, that the tariff' of tho Canadian I'acific Itailway is greatly lower than that of any of those other roads. It is said that they have raised tho tariff' lu^yond what the Government were charging, and boyond the previous tariff in operation in Winnipeg. It is quite true they have. But it is a mistake to say that that tariff' was higher tlian the tariff' of the Grand Trunk Railway, or than tho tariff's of tho Raihvaj-s in tho Central or Middle States. That tarifi' was an extremely low tariff', while the distance between St. Vincent and Winnipeg is a comparatively ehort distance, 3 with a large volume of business. But, as I was saying, the ' O < s I— I H o I % I I fi & o :3 ^-5 'S a C O ?1 S « O CI o ,9 ?3 o o 2 18 So O 3 o __ 73 -3 -3 -3 a< % c? CI »- ;r. S S n ki o rs TS ?} 8 § rH 5g CO ;-5 lO -f PI lO O I- ;i to rr M iS g S § S 1^ s M ll T) i-H r-< 1^ to .-^ C5 Cl CO ■><< 1— 1 C5 lO -r •-• 14 M r-> rH r^ CO !5 .5 S «! o T-H :£. O d lO ■T< -»< Ci :i s ?5 IS M CO CO •^ -« UO _ c> --^ II 30 CO r— 5j (M II rt s g 8 S rt ei Ci o -»< ro to ei -t< ;• 1 C5 O l~ lO CI C5 -H C; Mt C3 i to 'O to to ci 00 JO I- CO to c-i tI5 ao ^-^ CI -^ to o i gj S ^ ::; "-^ ^J C5 o I I-l s s CO CO o o O r-t S CO Ot'cj a a. lO p. 1 o ^ ar.3 C C ii O » Q. l.sa o o "3 u o a. J3 9 9 :3 I ii o Sq u3 -«^ T3 o '3 =4 o a a o ta » - 2 ■tJ O o .2 ca i -^ » 3 » •- "I a § 1^ a g OftJ ^ 3 ^ 2 I C ^ S r T i o Ji CD oi ^ 4> I a * 2 to *^ a I V3 oo -a » el -g «»; ^ 9 - 2 >>« M -3 O .9 1 r 19 that that is an injustice to Winnipeg. Well, I may say at once that the Government arc anxious to do everything; in thoir power to promote the prosperity of that great ami rapiilly increasing commercial centre; but they are not prepared to sacrific the whole of the North- West to secure that end. If you made a double charge for taking the f;amo amount of good.s to Portage la Prairie as to Winnipeg, you would not be actingontlieprincij)leof lessening the charge per ton per mile in proportion to the distance it is carried west. I say that to adopt a tarift" that would sustain a railway at all on a principle such as that urged by Mr. Brydges, would bo utterly destructive of the settlement of those remote portions of the country, to Avhich the tariff as to those groat leading articles of grain, fuel, lumber, agricultural implements, settlers' eflects, and things of that kind must be a low one. In that respect, I have no hesitation in baying that the tariff will be found to be an exceedingly moderate one, comparing favor- ably with those of railways similiarly situated ; and the only objection raised against it, is that it is not so constructed as to make Winnipeg the distributing point for the whole of the North- West. Why should you do that ? Winnipeg has many advantages ; it is destined to be a very large place ; it is the golden gate through which everything for the North- West has to go, whether from the United States, or from Thunder Bay. It has the advantage of possessing a great number of wealthy and enterprising men who are able to import in such large quantities as necessarily to obtain reduced rates for the business brought into that city. But, as I have shown before, it would be im- possible to make those rates of the same character as the rates must be made for trailic to a point four or five bundred miles west, at the base of the Rocky Mountains, without adopting a tariff which would be either, on the one hand, utterly destructive of the successful operation of the road, or, on the other hand, utterly destructive of the settlement of the country. I will not elaborate that point further, because I be? lievo that it would be found, on careful examination, that there is no groat ground for complaint. I may say that the Government, in order to do justice to the Canadian Pacitic Railway Company, on the one baud, and to hold themselves free to act from day to day in the interest of the settlers and the people who have to travel, on the other, have fixed the tariff for one year only, so that, as the country settles up and a greater volume of trade offers for tbe railway, wo shall be able to deal with it as cir- cumstances arise, and with the view to i)romote, to the utmost of our power, the interests of the people who settle in the Nortli-West. Now, Sir, I was a little surprised to find that my bon. friend with that— shall I say party — blindness, which occasionally affects him, I believe, in common witb other people who are subject to partisan influences, actually ventured the astounding proposition that the advantages of tho contract were all on one side. He was referrmg to the statesmanlike expression of my hon. friend tiie member for Westmoreland, who stated, and in terms that, I think, carried conviction to the mind of every hon. gentleman who board him, that he was glad that the Cana- dian Pacific Railway Company bad a good contract ; that he was glad that it was going to be advantageous to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. And why. Sir? A more fatal mistake could not have been made by any Government than to have made a hard contract, under which the Canadian Pacific Railway Company would have come to grief— a hard contract, which would compel them, when shut out of the English money market by tho influences to which I have referred, to turn back up( <» themselves to furnish the means to carry on this enterprise until at some remote period they could obtain some return from the lands that wore placed at their dis- posal. I say, no greater mistake could havo been made in tho interests of Canada, than to have made a contract, the success of which would have been imperilled, or upon which a doubt could have been thrown. But if any person wishes to know whether or not this contract was all on one side, let him consider the single fact that I have alluded to before, that is, that with all the influences tho Company could bring to boar, with tho glowing prospectuses they could publish, with everything sot forth in the most highly colored terms, down to this hour they have boon unable, in London, the jilaco whore, above all others, if you can show that money is to bo made in any undertaking, any amount of money will be at your command— there they have been unable, with all those advantages, and with the millions of profits which tho hon. gentleman's lively imagination conjured up, to sell the stock of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company at more than GO cts. on the dollar. And what more ? . Why, Sir, the hon. gontlomau has called attention to tho fact— I believe he has rather sug- 20 gested to the Government thai there has been a violation of the law— that vro should endeavor to prevent the Company from obtaining this UO cts. on the dollar, for he has a doubt that under the law ot this country they can pay 8:] per cent of interest on the money they have obtained, and pay it out of capital. But did it not suggest itself ta my hon. friend, when he was making a calculation of the interest thoy have to pay — for they have to pay 5 i>er cent, on par for every dollar they get during construction — did it not occur to the hon. gentlenuui what that would mean at 00 cts. in the dollar for four or live years? And yet that lion, gentleman did not hesitate to say to thia House that the Company were going to have a profit of $;]7,0(;0,000, regardless of those considerations, wliich are of primary importance in a calcidation with reference to monetarv transations. 1 think, INIr' Speaker, if you will allow me, I will ask the per- mission of the House to pause hero boforo I enter upon another branch of the question, as I see that it is impossible for me to close my remarks before six o'clock. It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left the Chair. AFTER RECESS. Sir CriARLEs TrppER. — Mr. Speaker : Before resuming the discussion of this question at the point at which I loft off, 1 want to call the attention of tho House for a single moment to an omission I made in quoting from the speech of the hon. the leader of the Opposition when discussing tlio policy of the Go verjiment propounded to the House on this important question on tlio ir)th Ajn-il, 1880. I have shown that the hon. gentle- man, after a careful calculation and estimate of tlie amount it would cost to make a. first-class Canadian Pacific Railway, declared that it could not bo placed at a smaller amount than .1120,000,000 ; but I lind that I did some injustice to the hon. gentleman in leaving it at that point, because by reference to that speech, Avhich I now hold in my hand, I find the hon. gentleman added $24,500,000 to tliat sum as the cost to the country on the interest that would retain 10 per cent, on their capital, on the amount they had jiut into the work, less the subsides tliey had received from tho Government, those tolls aro subject to revision. The hon. gentleman will see, therefore, as I stated before, that whatever money tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company aro obliged to raise upon the sale of bonds, in order to lionestly implement the amount received from the Government of Canada for tho construction of the work, whatever discount there is on that amount will fairly be chargeable under the head of capital It is not to be supposed that any railway company will Bell ' 81 their bonds for any smaller amount, at any lower rate than the very highest rate they can obtain in the market, and liav.ng obtained on the best terms, possible the amount of money absolutely necessary to implement, whatever that may be, the subsidies furnished by tho Government, that will bo the capital on which they will bo entitled to receive 10 per cent, profit before ti\e Government can interpose and forcibly reduce or require a reduction of the tolls oi- the road. Now, Sir, I have re- ferred to a good many of the objections which the htn. gentleman made in the course of the two speeches which he delivered and the criticisms that he oflfered upon this subject. The hon. gentleman, as I said before, objected to their eastern engagements, and thought it was quite possible they had gone too far, and the hon. gentleman seemed to think that they had behaved somewhat imprudently. Well, Sir, from my knowledge of tliose gentlemen up to the present time, I had supposed they were tol- erably well quahfied to take care of their own interests. During my acquaintance with them, I have found them not at all wanting in a knowledge of what tlio inter- ests of the Company required, or in any amount of vigor in pressing those interests ; and I think ho will find that, in the eastern engagements they have made, they hav& consulted the interests of Canada as wcU as their own by having an extension of their lino from Callander to Montreal. I have already stated that not a doll?- -^f the money of the «ountry has been required to be used in connection with theso engagements, because those sections of the lino yielded a profit over and above the interest requirecF to meet the entire expenditure which tho Company had to make. The hon. gentle- man's mind may, therefore, be relieved upon that point. Then the hon. gentleman^ refers to the subject of monopolies. He says " wo declared the provisions as to mono- poly were unnecessary in order to procure the construction of tho work, and wero calculated to retard the settlement and impair tho prosperity of that country, and to create great dissatisfaction and discontent within its bounds." I want to know v. here the hon. gentleman gets the impression that this road could have been constructed at all without tho monopoly to which ho refers. I want to know whore the hon. gen- tleman obtains the information that it would be possible for any person or any body of capitalists, on the security olfered, to obtain tho means that are required to con- struct this road unless this Parliament had given them all the advantages that that contract provides. The hon. gentleman has the fact before him of the difficulty of floating tho stock of the Company, notwithstanding all the advantages which the- contract provided. I deny altogether. Sir, chat if the terms given by the Government of Canada to tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company had been impaired in the slightest degree, there would have been the least chanco of the successful carrying oui of that great project. Tho hon. gentleman says it has been held that the Company was not merely entitled to, but could comixil the Government of tho day to exercise its power of disallowance. Ho says : " I myself have never been able to understand it being held that the Company was not merely entitled to, but could compel the Gov- ernmcjit of tho day to exercise its power of disallowance, to veto charters for local railways within the borders of tho Province of Manitoba, contrary to tho bargain, with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I say that that construction of the bargain is not merely contrary to Avliat wo were told the L:^rms were to be, but con- trary certainly to what wo were told its terms were when the bargain was laid before us by the Minister of Railways." Now, Sir, I ask my hon. friend to produce the state- ment made by the Minister of Railways. Mr. Blakio. — I said wo were told that whon the bargain was before us, but I did not say by tho Minister of Railways. Sir CnARLES Tupper. — Then the Minister of Railways did not tell it ? Mr. Blakh. — But tho hon. First Minister did. Sir Charles Tupper. — All I can say is that as the humble mouthpiece of the Gov- ernment, I undertook to state the terms of the contract, and the position under whicli, the Government and tho country under that contract stood in relation to the Canadian. Paci fie Railway Company, and the hon. gentleman knows that no man in the House can. charge mo with ever having receded in the slightest degree from tho position 1 have ever taken upon that subject. Sir, i may recall to the hon. gentleman the fact that this hafl not iDoen tho policy of one Government, but tho policy of all Governments. Tho policy of the Government of which ho was a member was just as strongly pro- nounced upon that question of tho disallowance of local charters wliicb were calculated to interfere with the trafiic of the Canadian Pacific Railway, as the pohcy of tho present Government has been. The hon. gentleman knows that uuring the term of office of the late Government, a charter was given, subject to its being brought into operation by proclamation, for the construction of a line of railway from Winnipeg, on tho west 22 side of the Red River to tlio United States boundary. Tlio hon. pontleman knows, too, thatmv lion, predecessor, tlion Premier of tlio country, was aj^plied to by Mr. Georjre Stephen, to issue a proclamation making that charter law. What did he say ? He refused to issue the proclamation. He vetoed the Bill, liiat is the posivion tlie hon. gentleman took. And why did he take it? Ho took it upon the plain and i)ali)able ground that the Government of the country had undertaken the iX)nstruction of the Canadian Pacihc Railway, and they would notpermitoouipetin.-j;lines from the United States of America, or anywhere else, to come into competition with tliat undertaking. That Is the position tnu hon. gentleman took. I say ho took a sound and statesman- like position, a position which—vigorously as he wps pressed l)y his then opponents in Parliament, vigorously as the hon. gentleman's policy was being criticised by the Opposition of the day — no man in tliis House would liavo been so recreant to what we all knew to be the true interests of this country as to assail. But what more ? Applications were juade by companies who came down to Government and Parlia- ment for the passage of Bills that would secure comi)otition between the Canadian Pacific Railway and those compa' les. What did wo do. Sir ? 1 went down, as Minis- ter of Railways, to the Railway Committee, composed of 100 of the leading members on both sides of the House, and declared in most positive terms that the policy of th! > Government was to steadily refuse any company i)eruiission to Iniild a lino of railwav in competition with the Canadian Pacific Railway or its branches. That was the posi- tion wo took, and I say it unhesitatingly, and in the jtresenco of hon. gentlemen opposite, tliat that policy met with the universal assent of the Railway Committee, of hon. gentlemen opposite, as M-ell as ourselves. /I say that t]r> policy, neither in the Railway Committee room, nor in thio House, was challenged ; it was accepted as a sound unquestionable policy in tho interest of tlio country. Then parties came down in the folio iving Session, and appealed to tho Government to allow rival lines to bo built in the Province of Manitoba, running to the American boundary, and they were again refused. So I say there was no person in this House, or out of it, that did not know that the policy of the Government was never more pronounced or declared than it was upon that question of the prevention of the construction of any railway in Manitoba that was going to interfere with the Canadian Pacific Railway./' Now, what was the Canadian Pacific Railway in those days ? Tho Government had not undertaken to carry a trunk line of railway through Canada, nearly 050 miles along tho north shore of Lake Superior, where not a single inhabitant was to bo found from tho time you left Rod Rock at Nipigon, until you came down to Callander. No Government was prepared to undertpke the construction of the work. No Government — this Govern- ment had not jiroposod at that day to do it. And notwithstanding that was the state of things, wo refused to allow competition with tho l*embina Branch of the Canadian Pacific Railway running to the Iwundary of tho United States. Now, there is not a fair-minded man in Canada, a man who is not blinded by party feeling, who will say that — when the Comi^any are bound not only to do all we were doing, when we refused competition, but to supplement that by building G5C miles through tho desert between Callander and Thunder Bay — we were not iijortiori hound to carry out the same policy regarding tho Company that we adopted for tho protection of tho Government irrespective of any contract at all. It is only necessary to apply the commonest principles of justice to this question to bo convinced of that, and that is what I have invariably done in this House and out of it in discussing this question. 1 say tho interests of this country demand that tho Canadian Pacific Rail- way should bo mado a success, and tho man who does any act by which that success is imperilled takes a course which is hostile to tho interests of Canada. But somebody may ask what about the interests of JIanitoba? Are interests of Manitoba and the North- West to bo sacrificetl to the policy of Canada? I say, if it is necessary— yes. I mot a deputation when visiting that couatry three years ago at Eniorson, who put this subject before mo, and I told them then and there that tho Govcj-nment of Canada mado it its first cousidoration to do everything it could do to develop tho great North- West Territory ; then wo wore asking tho r^eoiilo of the older Provincos to take hold of this gigantic work to push it forward and to develop and build up that country. And I said, under tho circumstances, anxious as wo are to ilo everything that would promote your interests, wo would feel that wo were traitors to the North- West, to Manitoba and the rest of Canada, if we wore to allow ourselves to be swerved from that policy which we have declared hitherto lionestly and plainly to bo al)soluteIy vital to the success of the Canadian I'acific Railway. On this ground I ask the ap- proval of this policy, not only by all parts of tlio Dominion, but I ask Manitoba and tho Nort 1 1- West to concur in it as a part of that railway policy which bus vitalized and develoiKid that country with su-oh wonderful rapidity and'onorgy. That is my 23 answer to the hon. gentleman in relation to that. Ho says there is a groat deal of dissatisfaction in this country on that subject. Who stirred it up, Sir ? Who are the men, where is the press, where are the people that hounded the Government of this country, and assailed it day by day, and tried to influence the pooplo of the North- West to believe that they were being prejudiced and injured by the policy of this Government? The same who when on this side of the House had propounded and acted upon the same policy as the only just and reasonable policy they could oflfer in relation to the interests of the whole of this country. So much, Sir, for disal- lowance. I thinl* I havo noticed and done justice to all the leading positions taken, by the hon. gentleman in the speeches which he delivered. I now will refer, for a few moments, to the last and most important statement that he made, and that was the point at which I had arrived when the House rose before Recess. I said that when the hon. member for Westmoreland propounded the broad, statesmanlike policy that was in tho interests of Canada that the Canadian Pacific Railway should have a good bargi an, ho propounded a sentiment tliat M'ill be eclioed and reechoed from one end of this country to tlio other as a sound and judicious sentiment. I believe they have a good bargain. I do not hesitate to say so, and I trust they will make groat fortunes out of their venture in undertaking tho construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway — an en! '>.rpi'iso besot with difhculties as it is; a uigantic enterprise, from imdertaking wliiiii both Governments in this country slirank ; a work so gigantic tuat alarm was created in tho minds of both tho groat parties in this country at the idea of taking it up as a Government work, with all tho I'osource.i of tho Gov- ernment of tho country, with tho means of bringing everything free into the country, with every facility and advantage, with the meansofgettingany amount of money wo wanted at 4 per cent. Notwithstanding all those advantages, both the groat parties shrank from the contemplation of tho Government of Canada constructing this gigan- tic road for 3,000 miles tlirough a comparatively unpeopled cotnitry. It was a source of groat relief to tho [)ooplo of this country when tho Government wero able to como down and lay upon tlio Table of the Houso a contract which provided for tho construc- tion of that work upon terms more favorable than had over been propounded by any member of this Houso on either side, and which wero eminently advantageous to the peoplo of this country. I say that at this moment, if the Canadian Pacific Railway Company aro successful, thoy owo it to tho undivided energy with which, heart and soul, all tho leading members of that corporation havo thrown themselves into this work and made it tho business of their lives. If this enterprise is made a success, and it has boon trembling in the balance more than caco, notwithstanding all their resources, it is because tho Government wero fortunate enough, not only to get men of vast exiK)rienco and great resources, practically accjuainted with aM tho work they had to do, but men who themselves possessed great fortunes upon which thoy could fall back, to implement any want of funds, while they wero endeavoring to obtain tho^ ne- cessary means from that which had boon an unpeopled desert— tho North- West. Under thoso circumstances, I rejoice to believo that they havo mot, and will meet, with great success, and ultimately obtain a ^.-aluablo property which can bo worked, not only in their interests, but in tho interests of tlie jxHiplo of this country. Having said tliat much, I say that I believe my hon. friend never made a greater mistake as a stateman, and I believe that hon. gentlemen opposite never in tho course of their live.s committed themselves to an unsounder policy, looking at tho interests of their party, than their hostility to this g»-oat work, they could not aQb/d to tako tho position they havo taken. Their past record year after yeai- ; their long struggles in connec- tion with (his miestion; their statements again and again to which they wero com- mitted in this IIouso in relation to tho enterprise, in relation to tho value of tho land, tho character of tho territory that had to bo pierced, and tho enormous responsibility that was going to bo thrown upon Avhoever constructed tho Canadian Pacific Railway, by its oiKu-ation— I say that in view of these public statements and their past record— a record thoy will find to bo un indelible re(X)rd— they could not allbrd to tako the position of hostility thov havo taken in relation to this great work. I say if they were capable of learning anything, if anything (;ould make an impression on them, if hon., gentlemen could bo taught anything by oxprienco, the experience of tho past two* years ought to havo convinced them of tho latal mistake thoy luul made, and induced them to abandon that lino as soon as possible. Looking to tho interets of tho groat Conscrvativo party in this country, I want to seo them pursue to tho bitter end tho policy they nro now pursuing. Looking, I say, to tho interests of tho groat Conserva- tivo party, I want these hon. gentiomen on this question, just as they aro on the National Policy, to remain in clear and well defineil antagonism with tho groat mass of public seatiment in this country. Sir, I sp ak of what I know when I say— for I 24 have not spent twenty-eight years of continuous public life, and in the study of public questions, and the public mind, without being able to form some judgment of tho public sentiment of this country— I say there never was any question before the Xieople of Canada upon which the overwhelming masses of tho people of all parties and of all classes had their minds more completely and thoroughly made up than on the question of this Canadian Pacific Railway contract. In tho debate on the Address my hon. friend declared, in reviewing tho statesmanlike utterances of my hon. iriond from Westmoreland, that the advantages wore all on one side. Why, Sir, is it possible that tho hon. gentleman was candid ? Is it possible that anything can so blind his eyes, so deafen his oars, so obtund overy sense by which a gentleman learns what is transpiring around him, as to induce tho hon. gentleman to \oiiture such a statement? Let me ask him what has been theeUect of this measure upon tlie groat vital question of population for Canada? The hon. gentleman knows that there is no question upon which our rapid progress and continued prosperity so entirely (leixjn J as tlio means by which wo shall be able rapidly to lill up that great Korth-West and bring population into all sections of this country. When my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture brought down his estimate for immigration, the hon. gentleman said : " Why, what does this mean ? AVe thought wo were to be re- lieved of all this ; wo thought the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were going to spend aM the money and bring the immigration into tlie country, and that we were going to fold our arms." Sir, nobody over thought anything of the kind. I admit that my hon. friend behind me has exhibited wonderful industry, wonderful energy and wonderful skill in attracting immigration to Canada, and I say that all his efforts ■would have been comparatively futile l3ut for the constructic > of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I say that no one factor has produced the influence upon our country in that great, that vital question of immigration that the construction of this Canadian Pacific Railway has j)roduced. I say the very fact that you have capitalists every- where, capitalists in London, capitalists in France, capitalists in Germany, capital- ists in New York, capitalists in Amsterdam, all interested in this groat national work of Canada, and tho fact that through every avenue that will reach the i)ublic mind of Europe from end to end, hundreds of thousands of documents are sent out that no Minister of Agriculture could ever have sent out without tho aid of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company — I say thatall these facts are entirely ignored by the hon. gentleman. And what do these documents show ? They have shown the world, they have shown the jx'.oplo of thoovo.r-poiiulated portions of Europe the fact that they will iiotjiaro to remain pent up in Winnipeg,. unable to got land for settlement, but that a rapidly constructed railway will carry them tho day after they reach Winnipeg, 5liO or ()00 miles out through tho prairie country where tliey can choose land to the right and to tho left upon which to locate and build up their own fortunes. Now, Sir, what oundary into our North- West, if it had done nothing else it Would have accomplisiied all that would be necessary to commend it to tlie judgUKMitand the regard of any jtatrirtic Canadian. Deduct Ww floating population out of tho whole and you have ol remaining settlors in tho North- West, 68,751. But, 1 25 Sir, that is nqt all. I will road, as the authority is bettor than any statement I can make— and I am sure the House will permit mo to do so— I will read one of the most interesting extracts that ever graced tlio report of an hon. Minister of Agricuku-r© since Canada was a country : — " It thus appears that tho value in money and property ascertained as brought by the immigrants thocountry in 188^ WHS !i3,171 501.59, besides a very large amount unasi ■ - • - >s- - into toba, and which it is impossible to approximate in tools, implements and ettects. . unascertained taken into Alani- In addition, there were the very considerable value* ritory, would probably leave their deposits m their own banks, for draft upon them as required, a pro portion of thrce-tourths ot tho above amount of SS,' 00,000, may be pjaccl to the credit of newly arrived immigrants ; and this cash capital without taking into account the monies deposited after the date above referred to, would makothototal value of cash' goods and effects brought in by immigrants $10,000,000 in round numbers, in 1882. Now, Sir, I have given you tho figures in relation to the past year, and I draw atten- tion to the fact that a cablegram appeared in the Globe newspaper from its London correspondent announcing tliat three steamshiris sailing that day conveyed 3,000 per- sons from Liverpool to tho Dominion of Canada, and declaring ti'it that number was double that which ever embarked on any previous day in tho history of tho coimtry. I need not add a word to a statement of that kind to sliow tlio enormous value to this country of the construction of tho Canadian Pacific Eailway, which, as I have said^ has been one of the chief factors in changing tlio position of our country and ensuring that we may rely on a steadily increasing tide of immigration, because tho initial dif- ficulty in immigration is the great diliiculty ; ])rovidedyou have, as I ani proud to say we have, the mc st inviting country for settlers in the world. All you Avant is the means of getting people into tho country, from which they can communicate to their friends the prosperity that has attended them, and you will draw ultimately thousands, tens of thousands and htindreds of thousands after them. Our advance will thus be in a progressive ratio, and wo will have tho proud satisfaction of knowing that this garden of the world will bo at no distant day filled with energetic and enterprising settlers who will make that hitherto neglected wilderness blossom as tho rose. Now I may, ferhaps, be permitted, with a )ittlo personal pride, to alludo to the resolutions v/hich had tho honor to submit, as representing the views of the Government in 1879. I do not intend to read tho whole of them, but I will read throe, as follows : — "3. Resolved. That reports from tho Mother Country set forth an unprecedented state of enforced idleness of tho working classes, and tho possibility of a scneme of relief on u largo scale being found in- diBpensiblo to alleviate destitution. "4. Resolved. That tho construction of tho Pacific Railway would afford immediate employment to numbers of workmen, and would open up vast tracts of fertile land for occupation, and thus wouli form a ready outlet for the over-populated districts of (Jreat Britain and other European countries. "5. Resolved. That it is obvious that it would be of {general advantage to find an outlet for the abundant population of tho Mother Country within the Empire, and thus buildup tlourishing Colonies on British soil, instead of directing a stream of immigration from England to loreign countries." I need not remind the House that tho great diificulty under which Canada labored was that the United States presented sucli overwherriing attractions, previous to our having a North- West of our own, that wo were unal)lo to compete with them in rela- tion to immigration. But I will chaw attention to tho fact that while lion, gentlemen opposite told tho |X3oplo it would be an idle dream for tho Government to suppose they could enlist tho Government of England in sujijiort of our policy, I have tho proud, satisfaction of knowing that to-day one of the (juestious uppermost in tho minds of British statesmen and British Ministers who to-day control tho destinies of the em- pire, is this questit)n, and it is h;ild that a sounder jwlicy could not Ixi adopted to meet tho diflficulties of tho over-populated districts of the Mother Country, whether in England, Ireland or Scotland, autl there are largely over-po[)ulated districts in all of them, than that of immigration. Lord Derby, the able Minister who no.' presides over our colonial destinies, publicly declare*, tliat England could not ajipropriato millions of its tro-isuro to better use "than to si nd to Canada assisted emigrants froui the over-populated (listricts of Great Britain; and at last, through tho various chan- nels and means, means which never could have been atlopted but for tho attractions wo are able to ufier in connei tion with the construction of tho Canadian Pacific Kail- way, tho jHiople of England anil the press are being brought to understand that thero is no source to wliich they can look with more confidence as a n^lief from their dilii- culty of over iM»pulation, than tho iueans of using tlie money it the disposal of tho Imjjorial Government to place those who are now struggling with poverty and wretchedness in the heart of the oni|)ir'.i, in the groat Canadian North- West where, by industry and energy and by a tithw of tho labor which now refuses to give them th»> 26 common necessaries of life, tliey may rapidly become not only successful settlers, not only men who are going to add to the wealth of the country, but a source of strength to the empire instead of a source of the greatest possible weakness. And yet with all those facts before him the hou. leader of the Opposition ventured the st?.tement that all the advantages of the Canadian Pacific Kailway contract are on one side. Let him turn to Winnipeg for a few moments. Let him look at "Winnipeg as it was, and as it i.s— before it was vitalized by the vigorous manner in which this Government under- took the work of pushing forward the railwr;.y The hon. gentleman has only to turn to the figures to find the most astounding facts that .ire presented in any part of the continent. Where, I ask, even in the Western States of the Union, can the hon. gentleman show me a single spot, notwithstanding all the advantages they possess, aud all the connections they have made by means of immigrants in the United States and their friends in the old countries, which presents the evidences of rapid progress and i)rosperity that Winnipeg presents to-day ? Where is there a spot on this con- tinent that has eurged ahead with the rapidity, strength and energy seen in that city v.hich is soon to become, whicli has already become, one of the groat commercial centres of this country ? The population in 1871 was 500, in 1881 it had risen to 9,000, / raid that was largely after 1878, as the hon. gentleman knows. But from 1881, the first year of the operations of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the population went up from 9,000 to no»less than 25,000 in a single year. The value of assessed property increased from $9,000,000 in 1881, to $30,000,000 in 1882. AVhat evidence can be more conclusive of the influence and success of that policy than is to be found in the figures to which I have directed attention. The imports fi4ai Great Britain and foreign countries in 18S1 were $2,837,431 ; in 1882 they had risen to §8,222,923, being an in- crease of $.3,395,497. But the amount of increase with our own country is a question in wiiich the people of the older Provinces have a lively interest. In addition to the $5,000,000 increase of imports from Great Britain and foreign countries, the imports from the older Provinces of Cauada reached $12,000,000, making the imports for the little town of AVinnipeg, as it Avas but yesterday, no less than $20,000,000 in a single vear. Let us now turn to Customs duty, and what do wo find ? I need not tell the House the material value of every imniigrant; that all Canada requires in order to secure material progress, and to rapidly wipe out the debt of the country and have a degree of prosperity which will compare with that of any country in the world, is that people shall be brought into tlie country and furnished with tho means of obtaining profitable employment. The taxes paid into the revenue of the country by every immigraiit who comes in. makes them an absolute and certain source of wealth. What do the Customs returns show ? The duties collected in 1879 were $279,255 ; in 1881, $051,892 ; in 1882, $1,587,327, or an increase for 1882 over 1881 of $935,435, showing nearly $1,000,000 of an increase; and yetmy hon. friend hesitates to accent $1,500,000 of Credit Valley Railway bonds as security for $1,000,000 to enable the Canadian Pacific Rail- way Company to prosecute more vigorously the great work in which they are engaged. IS'ot only have wo an increase of about $1,900,000 hero in consequence of that contract, but we have at the same time nearly $1,000,000 absolutely paid into the Treasury of this country by themselves, or as nearly so as possible^ in connection with their own works, and $5,000,000 were expended in buildings in 1882. The dej)osit3 in the Government Savings Banks increased $707,922 in 1882 (jver 1881, and yet the hon. gentleman can find no evidence of any benefit accruing to Canada from the contract for the construction of the CanacKan I'acific Railway Company. Does ho believe, does any hon. gentleman in the House believe that the history of our country woulu furnisli figures like those to evidence to the world the gigantic strides which wo are making in progre.-s and prosixjrity, if it had not been for the contract made with the Canadian I'acilic Railway Company. I say, Sir, under these circumstances, that we may point to that country, that we may point to the development of Winniiwg in this relation. Here, Sir, I want to ask the permission fh the House to read an extract from a .speech made the other day by Uv. Duncan]\laciirtluir. I\Ir. Duncan iMacarthur is a gentleman, a practical, doar-headed, able man, who has been engaged for ten years in the city of Winnipeg as manager of the Merchants Bank, a position from whiiii ho has recently retired. On a recent occasion that gentleman used the follow- ing language : — •' When I cauio to Winnipeg upwiirdsof ten years ago, it wns a remote and ineiKnificant villago 500 mtU'S iiorlh ot tiny coiisulorahlo town in thu United .States, and eonlaininw ii population ot'about biJOi-nuls It was regarded both Ijy Amerieauji and Cauadiaiis as llio ultima thulo ofsoltloniont uud ol riviiiziition.' He then went on to doscri))e what he had seen during those ten years, but I will not detain tlift ilouse, except to read what he says with refercico to the future; and I joad it, Sir, not as the language of a heated partisan, not as the language of any person 27 who has anything to gain by advancing tho political interests of one party or another,, but as the clear deductions of a logical and able mind, in a better position carefully to study the past, and to estimato tho future progress of that country, than porliaps almost any gentleman who is to be found in its borders. What does ho say :— " And, now, gentlemen, a few words about tho future of Manitoba and the North-AVest. Tr i.= diffi- cult to believo that tho North-West Territory should have remained, so far us people generally were concerned, a terra incognito until tho last twelve or fifteen years. Yet such is actually the case, and had it not been for tho consolidated impulse that accompanied and followed the Confederation of the British North American Provinces, it mi<;hthavo^rer.aine(l a terra incognito this day. Our statesmen loun- - -„ , _ ining agricultural, mnnufactunng and mining resources sullicient to supply tho wants of one hundred millions of human beings— a territory worth more in point of material value than all the other Provinces put to- gether. Gentlemen, our country is so vast and its resources are so rich and variec!, that S is impossible to mark the axtoiit of tho former or to estimate the value of tho latter ; and verv few even of those who have lived longest and who have travell'jd most in i ho interior of tho country possess an adequate idea ofthe value cf Canada's heritage in tho North-West. Confining our view of it to that portion that is suitable for agricultural purposes, we can sec, standing as we do on the eastern confines of the fertile belt, an immense tract ot country extending from Winnipeg ro tho Rocky Mountains on the one hand, and from Winnipeg to tho fertile yallcjys of tho Peace River country on tho other hand, a tract of coun- try which contains hundreds of inilliona of acres suitable for farming and grazing purposes, and which is sufficientto afford homes, an independence and comfort to the surplus population of Europe for cen- turies to come ; and owing to the exigencies arising from too large populations in many European coun- tries, our North-West is destined to bo spt?dily peoi)led. Our soil, which is easy of cultivation, and is of unsurpassed fertility, is obtained free by actual settlers, and owing to its level surface, machinery, which so Krgely aids the efforts of the tanner in a prairie country, can be employed with advantage in every agricultural operation. Thecountry is, moreover, accessible to Europe, and apart altogether from the special immigration which has been induced of late years to como here from tno other Provinces and from Groat Britain, wo may expect that tho great wave of immigration from Northern Europe, which d^iring the last twenty years has been slowly but surely filling up Minnesota, Dakota, and other United States Territories, will reach us and conduce greatly to the rapid settlement of the country. Moreover, our climate is healthy and bracing and is peculiarly well adapted to inspire mental and phy- sical vigor into our people. (Applause) It refjuires no anient imagination to picture the change which awaits the North-West during tho next twenty years. Long before that time tho face of tho country will be covered with a network of railways. Our nrairies that now appear so bleak and bound- less, will be cultivated and planted, and dotted over with the comfortable homes of an intelligent, pros- perous and a contented people. W^e shall be able to grow and exjiort a sufficient f^uantity_ of grain to justify us in calling our country tho granary of the world. Many cities and towns ot great importance will spring uj), and Winnipeg will not only retain its present iiosition and prestige, butwill in all pro- bability be tba largest and most important city in Canada. Those who know little or nothing about the North-West and its resources may think these .'tatcments are either gross exaggerations or the utter- ance of a sanguine and partial individual, but the time is not far distant when this great country will bo Bufiioiently well known to receive the recognit'on to which '.'•, is entitled. With such, a future before us we may well work and hoiio and wait. Unlike many of the older natio- by space, fettered by poverty, and crushed by the exRctions of injustu' and opportunities are in the past), we stand on the thret hold of a no- ' stitntes one ofthe fuirest portions ofthe 7U!W world— a lanil on wli'.3i~ tined to not out the great drama of life, and which is to witness a. turej roienco and art, .ind in many other forms of national progro' of tho world, who are limited d tyranny (>vnoso greatness )fpro'.ii9e— aland which con- ; of our race are yet des- .mphal ms,rches in litera- iipTT'^at.'' I may say, Sir, that no gontlomau can road that staler .t clear, calm, dispas- sionate etatoment, wliich in every lino of it caniei- coi. ...^aion to tho mind of every intelligent man, without coming to tho conclusic., thai :he fears and anxieties of hon. gentlemen opposite had been in tho i)ast totally without foundation, and that all that is required in order to develop a greater Britain in this continent with a rapidity that the ■ - - - - •- . - . . ener which give that scope and verge "for tho development of that country that it would be im- possible to give to it any other way. I referred a little while ago, Sir, to tl 3 value of branches that wore being constructed by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I alluded to the fact that with the exception of the land along their line from JNIoos^o Jaw to the Rocky Mountains, they would be obliged to jjot tho balance of ftieir land in the North-West, between the iifty-second and fifty-fourth parallels of north latitude, and that these lands were from 100 to LTiO miles distant from tht* railway. Now, Sir, let mo iust draw attention to this fact — that while the Canadian Pacific Railway Comi)any have Ivien constructing 281 miles of brandies out of their own resources, and while they are engaged in constructing another branch of 110 miles, and another of ISO miles in addition, to bo budt within the next two years, all that wo have been able, all that this Government has been able to do in constru(;ting branches througbi that groat and priceless hrritago ofthe North-West, by private enterprise,has been one branch of fifty-one miles, tho Sou i,!i- Western and another of (lilrty, soon to bo fifty miles on tho Portage, Westlx urno and North- Western. I need not say, Sir, that this is tho total amount accomplished, notwithstandir.,' that this Government gavo to these Companies <),4()() acres ,''in to aid in tiie I)le with ios of the al draw- pidly be- ^onnected 3 value of ontinuity of ter ut' great o Quality of tiess on this 'est will do- "lio distance ;o estimates made with O.OOO tons, one square iquare mils, develop- ion of the ) with the which are Superior, t rougher )igon and uounts of 3 country. nt in this ion to the , the able e Senate, 1 length of he case so iiy, 1883. receipts of lands, and it January, 1 informa- tion all these various point come. I give it to the House as an evidence of the sound ness of the statement made by my right lion, friend, the Minister of the Interior when he told the House three years ago that he confidently relied upon the construc- tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway being accomplished without its costing one dol- lar to the people of Canada, as the entire amount required to recoup the Government and the country for their expenditure in connection with it would, at no distant date, be returned by the sale of land and the revenues derived from lands in the North- West. I say that the evidence on that point is very conclusive. I liojd in my hands a statement of the Department as to what has taken place. I have already given the total sales of 1872 to 1880 inclusive, and I have shown the utterly insignificant quan- tity of lands that the Government was able to dispose of, and the small amount of money they received for them— namely, something like 3U cts. iier acre. I now give from the Department the following :— Approximate estimate of the amount due for lands — tame sales and pre-emption sales, computed from 1st Januarv, 1880, to 31st December, 1882, and maturing before 31st December, 1885, $1,930,000, Instalments owing by colonization oompanios to mature within four years and assuming that the companies earn the full amount of rebate, $927,150. Companies who have till 30th June, 1883, to complete agreements and to mature within four years : Land and Colonization Company of Canada, $537,600 ; Saskatchewan Land and Homestead Company, ir322,500 ; Temix^ranco Colonization Company, $835,- 656, or a total for these companies of $1,698,810. Estimated to be received from colon- ization companies who have till 28th February, 1883, to pay instalments, $150,0 ; ground rents on timber leases, $4,165; owing at Winnipeg Timber Office, $25,600; estimated amount owing by Canadian Pacifi« llaihvay Company at Winnipeg Office, $20,000, or a total of $7,755,731, and adding to this casii received during the calendar year 1883, $2,256,850, or a total of $10,012,381. It will be remombored that my right hon. friend made a computation of what would bo received in connection with the sale of lands in the North-West ; and it will also be recollected that my hon. friend, the leader of the Opposition, not only took great exception to the statement, but he pro- nounced it so absolutely beyond any possible conception, as to entirely discredit, so far as that hon. gentleman was able to discredit, the jirediction and the computation which the right hon. gentleman made. Wo cstimatedthat by the time the Canadian Pacific Railway contract was to be completed under the terms of the contract, we would receive not merely the $53,000,000 we were going to pay in connection with the construction of that work, but that we would receive about $60,000,000, or a consider- able amount over and above the entii'e expenditure we were called upon to make in connection with the construction of that road. In order to show the House how thoroughly reliable and within the mark that calculation is, I will give tlie calculation made by my right hon. friend, and communicated to the House as our estimate two years ago, when it was very much discredited by hon. gentlemen opposite ; and I will also give the result. The Minister of the Interior estimated that in 1882 there would be an incoming pojmlation of 35,000 ; tiie actual immigration of settlers into the North-West was 58,751. I am almost afraid. Sir, of discrediting my right hon. friend by reading these figures, because you will find how incapable he is of making an accu- rate calculation. lie estimated that the revenue to be derived from Dominion Lands for the year 1882 would be §781,00(1 ; the actaal revenue for the calendar year was $2,256,000. My right hon. friend estimated for the year 1883, 40,000 as the increase of population; and my hon. friend, the Minister of Agriculture, estimates the increase of population at 75,dO(), and 1 think that will be below the mark, as previous estimates have been. I\Iy right hon. friend estimated tiio revenue to lie derived from the lands in 188S at $1,820,000; the ])reseiit estimate is $2,750,000, with every evidence that that will be under the mark. iNIy right hon. friend estimated tlie increased jiopulation of 1884 at $45,000, a much smaller estimate^ it will he seen, than the actual increase of 1882 ; my hon. friend, the ^Minister of Agri'.;ulturo, estimates it at 100,000. My right hon. friend estimates the receipts at $2,622,000, and I have no doubt that wo shall receive in that roar $4,250,000. I give thc.»e figures as the evidence upon which I think" may coiilidcntly ask the House to uccoi)t our estimates as being altogether below i.istead of al)i)Vo the mark; and 1 ask my hon. friend, the loader of the Opi>o?ition, again whether, Avith those tignroM, I am not warranted in the statement I make in relation to everytliing connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway contract, that down to the jtresent hour the most sanguine calculations that any gentleman on this side ha:j veiitiired to oiler to the House or the country have been more than realized ; and I ask my hon. friend whether ho will reiterate the statement to this House — if lie does 1 aili sure it will be to incredulous oars on both sides of the House — that all the advantages of this contract are to be found on one side. 30 Now, Sir, I will say a single word, before I sit down, witH refeicnce to the net debt of the country. Every person knows that when this Government came down to the House and asked it to sustain them in the policy oJ vigorously grappling with the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway from end to end, a wail of dismay was set up on tho other side of the House, and every one remembers tho utter ruin and destruction that was going to result to Canad" *''-om the attempt on the part of the Government, within any reasonable period, to construct that great railway. Everybody remembers tho warning, tho solemn warning, that my hon. friend the leader of tho Opposition gavo to the House, that in that ruin we were going to destroy the very foundation of our country's prosperity. He admitted with us that the greatest thing for Canada was to bring people into the eountry ; but he said, " You will load this country down with a debt so gigantic in proportion to its population that everybody will avoid Canada as they would a pestilence, and our im- migration will cease." I am glad. Sir, to be able under these circumstances to draw the attention of tho Plouse for a single moment to a calculation made by my hon. friend tho Minister of Finance — and we all know how far below the mark all his cal- culations have been, how careful he has been not to overstate anything — as to the con- dition which this country will bo in with respect io its debt, when the time comes under the contract for the completion of the Canadian Pacific liailway. I may state, and I do so with groat pleasure, the result of one year's experience, which we have had already, of tho Pacific Railway contract. We havo had one year in which my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition says tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company have gone too fast ; wo havo had one year of unprecedented rapidity of construction and of draft on the treasury of tho country for public money under the contract; and what has that year disclosed? Why, Sir, at tho close of '^hat year after wo had paid them every dollar that they were entitled to, with all that rapidity of construction, we actually owed $1,734,129 less than we did at tho beginning of the year. Tho net debt of the Dominion — the net debt on the 30th of June, 1881, at tho beginning of the contract, was $155,395,780.40 ; on 30th of June, 1882, it Avas $153,001,050.78, or, as I said before, a decrease of $1 ,734,129.02. So much for the ruin that was to overtake this country by tho rapid construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway. Now, Sir, my hon. f/iend the Minister of Finance has given me this memorandum : — Surplus Consolidated Revenue, 1879-80 $4,132,743 do do do ]8«.0-dl 6,316,052 Proceeds of lands, 1880-81 l,744,45t) Estimated surplus this year . . . . ^ 6,000,000 Proceeds of lands this year 1,750,000 Estimated surplus next year 3,000,000 Estimated proceeds from lands 2,250,000 Estimated saving of interest after January, 1885,1 per cent, on $30,000,- 000. $300,000 per annum or equal to a reduction of debt of 7,500,000 If wo havo a surplus ofabout $1,000,000 a year from Juno, 1884 to 1891, say seven years 7,000,000 Proceeds of lands, seven years at $2,000,000 would bo 14,(X)0,000 $53,693,251 This is the amount that we expect to receive from surplus revenue and the sales of land from the commencement of this contract down to the time tho contract provides for the completion of tho work. With that calculation before us— and I think ail will admit that it is a safe calculation— I think we may como to the conclusion, not only that our country will not bo overwhelmed in debt, but that we shall bo in tho position that the Imperial Government are in to-day. Mr. Childers has brought forward his budget, and in it he has very much astonished hon. gontlomon opposite, by a proposal to reduce the National Debt by £8,000,000 a year. It was reduced last year bv £8,000,- 000, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to reduce it this year by £8,000,000. end to end there will not only bo no increased indebtedness upon Canada, but at an early day the sales of tho lands alone will recoup back to tho treasury of the country every dollar that has been expended. But what will bo the ditlerence ? Why tho diflercnco will be that instead of being overwhelmed with debt, instead of inimigrants who are looking to our shores as a future homo being driven to seek other lands, because wo are borne down by a monstrous debt Uiat wo aro unable to control or provide for, tbo hon. gentleman will find that we shall havo in this country reduced the debt, and at tho same time a lilllo over 4,000,000 of people will have ac- complished one of the most gigantic feats in tho record of at y country in tho world, the construction of a Canadian Pacific Railway from ocoan to ocean. I fool that we ce to ihf ovornment policy ol •om end to every one - ^'i-om the construct niiig, that at ruin we admitted untry; but irtion to its nd our im- es to draw jy my hon. 11 his cal- to the con- time comes may state, ch we have which my y Company onstruction ntract ; and ve had paid Dnstruction, Tho net ining of the or, as I said vertako this sir, my hon. 743 ,052 45t) 000 ,000 000 000 000 ,000 000 251 the sales of act provides liink ail will an, not only tho position forward his y a proposal ,r bv £8,000,- y £8,000,000. 3 WO propose ,ih\ ay, mark ;ructod from Canada, but treasury of ) ditlbrence ? t, instead of riven to seek re uuablo to this coniitry will havo ac- in tho world, ; fool that we 81 are in a position to congratulate ourselves upon the condition of our country, of which every Canadian may bo justly proud. I say, Sir, that in contemplation of these facts, I trust my hon. friond will reconsider the statement which ho made, and will come to the conclusion that tho statement that all tho advantages were to be found on one side, requires some little modification at his hands. 1 may say, Sir, that it would be impossible, in my judymont, to lind any country in tlio' world that has exhibited greater evidences of progress and prosperity, daring the time that we have been en- gaged in actively grappling with tho construction of the Canadian Pacific llailway, I than Canada presents, take it from what point you may. I spoke a little while ago of I tho great advantages the United States of America had in regard to attracting popu- lation to their country; but what is the fact? Hero in this Canada of ours, we have been able, in connection with tho construction of this groat natiojial work, and with the eflbrts that have been niado through that Company and the Government of tho country, to increase the immigration from Euroi)e 50 jxir cent, while our neighbors (the Unitod States) have been only able to increase their immigrant population 3i per cent. The tables aro turned. Every iH3rson krows that the eyes of the civilized world have, for many long years, been turned to the wonderful development of the great country south of us. Every person knows that thoro never was a country that has made such progress as Canada has made in regard to the sentiment of the people, the press and the Government of England. The position Canada occupied yesterday has been entirely changed, and to-day the statesmen, the press and the most intelli- gent minds of that country are drawing tho attention of the people to the fact that tho wide world presents no more inviting or attractive field for those who wish to seek homes in the New World than is to be found within the Dominion of Canada. We have every reason to feel proud of our position, when we look at tho rapidity of the increase of oar population, at the imports of the country, at the exports of the country, and at", the increasing and de- veloping industries of the country. Wo aro prepared to-day to meet our great American neighbors to the south of us in friendly rivalry, and to show that in neither one nor the other of tliese great factors of tho development, and of the progress of the counti'v aro wo behind. Kow, Sir, I have tresi)assed upon tho attention of the House much longer than I intended to, and if 1 wcro to judge by tho futility of my eflbrts in tho i^ast, 1 would sit down without saying any more to my friends on tho other side of tho House. I have already stated. Sir, that looking at it from a party jwintof view, nothing could bo more conducive to tho continued rule of tho Conservative party of this country than that hon. gentlenjen opposite should continue to maintain the atti- tude that thoy have maintained in tiio i)iist in relation to this great work. I have said, Sir, what I sincerely Ijoliovc, that there is no question that is so rooted in the public mind of the groat body of the intelligent men of all parties and all classes in this country, as tho conviction that the Government of Canada deserves well at the hands of tho people for having put their hands to this great work, and for having achieved the contract under which our country is surging ahead with such gigantic strides. But, Sir, there is a greater, there is a higher, tliere is a more imi)ortant standpoint from which to view this question than ono of party. Even at this late hour I would ask our friends on tho oi)posite side of the House — not- withstanding tho groat advantage it will give them, and the great advantage it will take from us — I ask them to bury tho dead past and to imito with us on the greatest national (question that is now engaging the attention of the people of Canada, xuiito with us in a hearty endeavor to elevate, to raise and to advance the prosperity of our country together, as it can be only elevated, and only advanced and only raised by tho united sympathy and hearty action and co-operation of both parties. I feel that it is more in the interest of hon. gentlemen opposite than in tho interest of my friends tliat I make this proposition. But, Sir, I believe that tho time is coming, Avhen, with the evidence before tho \\orkl, that we liavo achieved a position, of wliich no Canadian, however sanguine, dared two or three years jigo to dream avo could attain in so short a period. 1 believe. Sir, that tho time is coming when every i)atriotic Canadian will feel bound to unite, heart and soul, with all the energy that ho jjosscsses, in a common effort, to sustain this gigantic onteri)rise, whicpi has already accomplished so much, and is calculated to accomplish still more to make us a great and i)rosperous country. SPEECH OF HON. I. H. POPE. Hon, Mr, Blako followed Hon, Sir Charles Tapper in the debate upon the Pacific Railway, and was in turn followed by Hon, J, H, Pope, Minister of Agriculture, who said :— I am not going, Mr, Speaker, to make a speech, but before the House rises I'desire to'pointlout some of the mistakes which the hon, gentleman has ma^le, and purposely miule, and after having done that I shall move that the House adjourn. The hon, gentleman declared, in effect, that he came before !the House as a superior man, and as such, would discuss the question. He had hardly entered on his task before he dealt with the subject in the most extreme manner. With respect to his quotations from the Canadian Pacifio Railway tariflf, I wish to show his disingenuousness, that he did not point out matters in the tariff, except in a way that must be misleading, and which ho knew was misleading. What did the hon, gentleman say? Quoting from the Canadian Pacific Railway tariff, he said that merchandise of the first class was 80 cents per hundred pounds, while on the Union Pacifio it was 57 cents, the distance being 200 miles. With respect to the rates for 400 miles he said nothing, and regarding those for 600 miles he said nothing. If he had told the House that they were $1,97 on the Canadian Pacifio Railway, and $2,47 on the Union Pacific for the latter distance, ho would have told the House the truth and dealt with the question in a fair manner, Mr, Blake— I had not the rates of the Union Pacific over 200 miles. Mr, Pope— Then I wish to inform the hon. gentleman, because he has led the House astray. In regard to second class goods, the rate of the Canadian Pacific Railway was 67 cents, as against 60 cents on the Union Pacific. If he hati taken 400 miles he would have found the rate $1.35 on the Canadian Pacifio Railway, and $2,13 on the Union Pacific, and he would therefore have given the House some idea what the tariffs really are. If the hon, gentleman knows anything about railways, he would be aware that almost all the goods are classed as third and fourth class, and that the rate on first class is ot little importance, because the great bulk of goods belongs to the third and fourth classes. On the third class the rate is 54 cents on the Canadian Pacifio Railway, and 51 cents on the Union Pacific. If he had taken 600 miles, ho would have found the rate $1,08 on the Canadian Pacifio, and $1,91 on the Union Pacific. Now, sir, I only desire things to be understood, I think it well, after what has been placed before the House to-night, that this matter should not be left as the hon, gentleman left it. Now we come to the fourth class, which is the most important. The hon, gentleman did not quote these rates, and why? Just for the reason that for fourth class goods for 200 miles, the rate on the Canadian Pacific is 40 cents, and 46 cents on the Union Pacific, Then, Sir, why did he not take the rates for 600 miles? If he had taken 600 miles, he would have found that the rate on the Canadian Pacific is 86 cents, and $1,59 on the Union Pacifio. He quoted a little further. He went into grades. He said it was 24 cents for 200 miles on the Caiiadian Pacific ; but against 24 cents, it is 46 cents on the Union Pacific for 200 miles, and the rate of42 cents on the Canadian Pacifio for 600 miles, is $1.49 on the Union Pacific. Now, if he had taken flour, he would have found, that while the rate is 48 cents for 200 miles on the Canadian Pacific, it is 92 cents for 200 miles on the Union Pacific; and while 84 cents are charged for 600 miles on the Canadian /i 'ittc, $3.18 are charged on the Union Pacific. This, Sir, would have given a betterideaof the true state of matters to the House. The rate for salt and lime is 66 cents on the Canadian Pacific for 200 miles, and 70 cents on the Union Pacific, and $1.29 for 600 miles on the Canadian Pacific, and $2,45 on the Union Pacific, If we take timber, shingles, &o., what the hon, gentleman men- tioned, we find that $37 a car for 200 miles are charged on the Canadian Pacific, and $36 on the Union Pacific, while $73 are charged for 600 miles on the Canadian Pacific, and $118 is charged on the Union Pacific, If ho had taken live stock, he would find that .$60 a car are charged on the Canadian Pacific for 200' miles, and $55 on the Union Pacific ; .$124 a car being charged on the Canadian Pacific for 600 miles, and $180 on the Union Pacific ; and so, Sir, it is to the end. My hon, friend explained when he rose that if you take short distances you would find, perhaps, the rates a little heavier ; but, said the hon, gentleman, "we did not find this to be the case on the Pembina Branch," And why? There were no long distances on that road. My hon, friend, when he addressed the House to-night, said that they intended to encourage trade and to assist men who had gone a long way into the country, by giving them cheaper proportionate rates ; and he stated that this was all right. What I complain of, and am desirous of reminding you and setting right before the House— if possible before the country— was the comparison which the bon> gentleman made between the rates on the Union Pacific and Canadian Pacifio. fly, and was ntlout some 3 that I shall ;ho House as fore he dealt ,dian Paoifio ariflf, except •iff, he said fio it was 57 ad regarding idian Pacifio ise the truth astray. In 1 60 cents on vdian Pacifio dea what the B that almost I importance, the rate is 54 600 miles, ho Now, sir, I e the House ;o the fourth hy? Just for cents, and 46 had taken 600 jn the Union 200 miles on and the rate le had taken 1 Pacific, it is miles on the Eive given a cents on the the Canadian itleman men- on the Union on the Union Pacific for 200' KX) miles, and IB rose that if )n. gentleman, long distances d to encourage proportionate inding you and rhich the hon>