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Les diagrammes suivants iilustrent la m6thode. 1 2 3 t 2 9 ii'- --■ -■'■,'' 4 5 6 Ca Mr. B not desi HouBO y heard, t the hon, oftbiadi the evei before, a Canadiai at their oomes ni As he ( doable I can were e eions ai mony w argumei hon. get had a sp liarity i to revei the iao( ancient joint 001 and the admit tl Sir, alth hon. gei THIRD SESSION, FIFTH PARLIAMENT.-48 VIC. SPEECH OF HON. MR. BLAKE, M,P., ON THE Canadian Pacific Railway Resolutions. OTTAWA, JUNE 16th, 1886. Mr. BLAKE. Mr. Speaker, if the rest of the Cabinet do not deaire to continue the discussion, I will trouble the House with some reference to the speeches we have heard, and the proposals on the table. I congratulate the hon, member for Piotou (Mr. Tapper) upon the events oftbiadav. T oongratulate the High Commissioner upon the events of this day. Government brought him out before, and specially for the purpose of engineering the last Canadian Pacific Bailway aid measure through. He came at their oall and spoke, although not qualified to vote. He oomes no more. " Ob, for oae blast of Roland's horn Oq Fontarabian echoes boroe I Through the dark Rooces Valles pass." As he came not, it was necessary to fill his place by a double performance. It was not exactly a duet. I can hardly oall it a concerted piece, for there were some discords between several of the expres- sions and phrases. There was not that degree of har- mony which I should like to have observed between the arguments of the hon. gentleman who moved and the hon. gentleman who seconded the resolution. Wo have had a speech, in at least two volumes, with this pecu- liarity about it, that the authors of the speech seemed to reverse the proper order of these volumes, because the modern history came in the first volume and the ancient history came in the second. We have had a joint composition. One wns a speech composed of figures, and the other was composed of figures of speech. I will admit that there were a good many tropes in both. But, Sir, although I have, upon this occasion, to moot these two hon. gentlemen, who have taken a ^^ourse nnpreoedented in my brief parliamentary experience, on the occasion of a Ministerial proposition, of pressing two speeches in support of their measure before a voice from the other side was heard ; although I have got to meet them both, the same spirit which induced them to think it was necessary that there should be two opening speeches, may, I hope, serva to sustain me in this unequal contest, as I have been sua* tained in former contests against the eminent statesman whose place they have attempted to fill. This is a great day for Quebec. Her Ministers have opened the battle. Her Ministers have commenced the war — in the absence, it is true, of the Minister of War, who may have gone away by the Grand Nord, for aught I know ; but they have com.' menced the war. But would not one of them have done ? Was it absolutely necessary that they should both speak. Would no one hon. gentleman from Quebec have been adequ^e to open the Ministerial proposition ? Now, the hon, gentleman who spoke last at some leaglh, closed bis speech somewhat in the tone of Sir Charles Tapper, and in a course and strain of exhortation which wo have heard not unfrO' quently when from that side of the House, they invite us to discuss the question, They say that they invoke criticism, that they challenge it, that they are not at all afraid of it, that they rather relish it. If our observations indicate that their policy has been injurious to the country, and that the coun< try has been injured by their policy, oh, they say, you are decrying the country, you are injuring the country. Criti* else us as much as you like, but admit that we have caused the country to prosper, and that our policy has been all that it should be. These are the conditions under which the hon. gentleman invites ua to discharge our duty, Now, Sir, wa 2 havo jast 08 groat a slako in tho prosperity of the Itiud in which wo live aa tho hon. gentlomon opposite. Our for- tanes are as much bound up in its prosperity as their for- lanes — perhaps moro. Our hearts beat as true to this country as theirs can. Why should they not? What interest have wo to decry our country ? Hero wo live ; here the most of us wore born ; horo our children, those we love, abide ; bore it is that we hope, when the day of rest shall come tj us, to lay our bones ; and why in the world should we desire to decry, or defame, or depreciate our country ? But if we see that those who are entrusted with tho reins of power have abased their trust, if we see that those who havo had control of public affairs havo mismanaged those affairs, if we find that their policy has been such as to injure the country, to interfere with its prosperity and lessen its chances of progress, I should like to know whether it bo not true patriotism to point out those defects, to signalise those errors, to indicate those abuses, in order that they may be remedied. Therefore, Sir, no such language as the hon. gentleman has used, in which, under pretence of patriotism, he seeks to evade criticism of transactions which cannot stand a searching criticism — I say no such language as he has used to-night, any moro than like language on former occasions, thall deter us, at all proper times and seasons, and upon all proper occasions, from explaining clearly what wo think the condition of this country is, and to what cause that condition is duo. Now, Sir, the Secretary of State, in tho second volume of the joint speech, as I said, entered upon the ancient history of the question, and ho pointed out that tho mistakes of tho Liberal party had begun at tho beginning, that we were mistaken in objecting to the original contract that was made, and to tho pro- posal to ratify that contract by the Parliament of this country in tho years 1871.72. Ho declared that we did object, and that wo ought not to have objected. How did the hon. gentleman himself describe that transaction ? He said it was an audacious transaction. It was a thing unexampled in tho history of tho world, up to that time, that a contract and undertaking for the construc- tion of so many miles of railway at one time should have been projected. He said: True it is that France has built large numbers of miles of railways ; true it is that Austria has entered into large railway operations ; but not even Prance, with her 40,000,000 of people, not oven Austria with her power and strength and population, ever did that which was proposed to be done by Canada in tho ?ear 1871. We objected, not that we objected to a Canadian acific Hallway being built, not that wo did not desiro that a Canadian Pacific Bailway should be built ; but we declared then, what events have verified most certainly, that it was not reasonable or prudont to agree that a Canadian Pacific Eailway should bo built by us within ten years, as proscribed by tho obligations of that da;. That was our declaration. Wo declared that it would lake a very long time properly to ascertain tho route, and thai it would take a very long time, without imposing great burdens upon tho country, to build the road. And mark you,. Sir, at that time that happened which has ofton happened since. Hon. gentle- men met our declarations with promises of tho impossible. They declared to Parliament, they declared to the people of Canada, that they were about to build that railway without increasing tho then rate of taxation, and to build it within that time without increasing the then rate of tax- ation. They boldly stated that that was thei" policy, that that would bo accomplished, and by that means, by a narrow majority of 10, they succeeded in inducing the Parliament of the country to agrco to their proposal. I have said that that was the original statement. That was the statement made in tho Act of Parliament itself: that the road should be built without any increase of taxation. The Liberal party declared that it was not prudent for Caaada to agree to build tho Canadian Pacific Railway within ten years, as was then proposed. I want to know how many of the business men of Canada, if the question was put to them to-day, would not say the Liberal party was right in that declaration. The Liberal party declared it was not possible for Canada to build tho road as proposed by hon. gentlemen opposite, that it was not possible to implement the obligation without imposing heavily increased burdens on the country. I want to know how many of tho business men of the country would answer that proposition in the negative, would dissent from it to^lay. How many members of this House would dissent from it ; would say today that although that promise has not been fulfilled, although the road has not been built within the time, although a longer time has been taken, vet our burdens of taxation and l)urden3 of debt havo not been heavily increased in order to secure the construction of this road. The Act of Parliament passed on 14th June, 1872, says: " Wbereas the House of Oommons of Canada resolved during the said now last Hession that the said railway sliould be constructed and worked as a private onterpriae, and not bv the Dominion Government, and that the public aid to be given to sucn undertaking shouid consist o4 such liberal grants of land and such subsides in money or other aid, not increasing the present rate of taxation, as the Parliament of Oanada should tbereaTter determine." That was the resolution brought in by the Government of the day; that was the resolution incorporated in the Act of Parliament, forming the preamble of the original Act for tho construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway. Has the ploJge been kept ? Has tho road been built within the time, and has it been built upon the terms? Have we not had the taxation enormously increased ? Have we not had boasts from those benches opposite that $20,000,000 have been paid into tho coffers of the country by means of enormously increased taxation, and spent in the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway ? Do we not know that loan after loan has been brought down ; that a loan was made. last year largely for the Canadian Pacific Railway, and that a Loan Bill passed through tho other day, partly for the Canadian Paci- fic Railway ; and thut having raised the taxes to the high- est point, and so dragged all we could out of the pockets of the people, and having borrowed all we could and given the cash to tho company, wo are now told that, having first taken all tho taxes and given tho amount to tho company, and, in the second place, borrowed all we could and handed that too over to them— having come to the end of both those sour* ces of revenue, wo are now to give them our notes for the last advance. That is the position we occupy to-night. Under those circumstances, I say tho prediction of the Liberal party that tho policy of the Administration in 1872 would prove not a realisable policy, not a policy of which events would indicate tho wisdom, has boon proved by an acjumulation of testimonies melancholy in their cogency, their force and thoir influence, on the future destinies of this country. Then the hon. gentleman has said that this general policy of 1872 was a policy which has conquered the North-West. This is tho third conquest of tho North-West which hon. gentlemen opposite have made. They made a conquest when they first took hold of the country. — a military conquest. Then it seems there has been a peaceful conquest — I admit there is a domination by moans of the Canadian Pacific Railway — and they have had uuothor conquest since tho Session opened. So, Sir, wo find they aro fond of conquest. They are a military form of Government; and now we find, not content with the conquests made under Wolseloy and Middleton, they havo conquered tho North West with the Canadian Pacific Railway, and through the Canadian Pacific Railway they hold it in subjection. The hon. gentleman says that in 187b', at all events, whatever difiicuUies there had been before, however esousable might have been that short-sightedQess^ ten yoars, as ow many of aestion was iiboral party beral party i to build o, that it was ut imposing vanttoknow r^ould answer lent from it TOuld dissent promise has been built been taken, obt have not construction n 14th June, ed during the inatrncted aod OoTernmeat, should oonaist ly or other aid, lent of Canada ornment of n the Act of nal Act for y. Has the in the time, not had the boasts from en paid into ly increased [e Canadian cer loan has 7ear largely Loan Bill ladian Paci- the high- he pockets id given the ', first taken my, and, in lod that too those sour- for the last ht. Under beral party 3uld prove ich events )d by an in their on the the hon. of 1872 Drth-West. est which made a lountry. — IS been a ation by Lhoy have ined. So, 1 military tent with Lon, they n Pacific way they t in 187b', 1 before, ht«dQesS| that want of courage, that oravenness of splrif, which shrank from committing the people of Canada wilh three and a-half millions of people to undertaking within ton years to build this work, a work from which Franco or Austria would have shrunk, as I judge from the hon. gentleman's statement, that calculating spirit which induced us to come to the conclusion that it was impossible to realise the policy of hon. gentlemen of building it without an increase of taxation— whatever justification or palliation there might have been for those errors of judgment which the Secretary of State thinks wo committed in 1872, but of which we are not at all ashamed to-day, and which wo aro quite prepared to reiterate to day, and at all times, to which we point as proofs ofour prescience and judgment, and as in- dicating our superiority in those ingredients of statoBmanship to hon. gentlemen opposite — whatever palliation there might have been for errors of judgment and cravonne^s of spirit in 1872, there was none for our course in 1876, 1877 and 1878. In those years there was a confossion of folly and incapacity, said the hon. gentleman. The hon. member for East York (Mr. Mackenzie), at the very commencement of his Ad- ministration, having come back to this House with a victory at the polls, upon a Canadian Pacific Eailway policy which he had submitted to the people, which ho had sub- mitted in his speeches and Address, and in regard to which he had received the endorsement of the people, proposed his Canadian Pacific Railway Act. In that Act he proposed a re-enactment of the resolution and preamble of the former Bill, and repeated the declaration in these terms. I tran- slate from tne French : " Considerlaff that by the legiilatlon of the present SesBion, with a view toTulfil the obliKationa of the Dominioa, the Customs taxation has been raised to a fietire macb higher than that which existed at the period of the said reaoTiit'oo, and oonsideriog it is fitting to take measures for the execution of the said work as rapidly as it can bo accomplished, without further raising the Customs taxation, etc." His proposal then was to adhere to the view that the rate of taxation should not be raised, at all events, beyond the figure to which it had been raised by existing legislation, and that the road should be built after that fashion. An hon. member near, reminds mo that the IIouso was unanimous in sustain- ing thoeo propositions. Then we woio rtot wrong in 1874. I fo further, namcl}', to the years of which the hon. gontleraan as spoken. The hon. gonlleraon said— I took it down — that there was no room for doubt in 1876 ; and then ho Baid, there was a confefsion of folly atd incapacity bccauee my hon, friend did not grapple with the work nnd did not do a greal deal more than he did do, or propoj.e a great deal more than he did propose. Sir, on the 7tb April, 1870, the year in which the hon. gentleman says we demonstrated our incapacity to grapple with this subjiict, a motion was made to annex to the voto for the expenses of the Canadian Pacific Railway for the year these words : " While granting this sum, this House desires to record its view that the arrangements tor the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway should be such as the resources of the country will permit, without increasing the existing rate* of taxation." So WO find that once again, after all the negotiations which had taken place with British Columbia, after the diecuK- sions about the failure of the Carnarvon terms, when the question came clearly before Parliament, Parliament was called upon to decide whether they would adhere to the view that the arrangements, whatever they were, were to be limited by this condition, as to taxation, and Parliament did adhere to that view. It adhered to it. Sir, not by the ordinary party majority of my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Mackenzie) — ho had 149 votes for that proposal. There were but ten who voted against it, and amongst those who voted for it, I will read a few names, for the edification of the Secretary of State, to whom this appears to bo not merely ancient history, but history so ancient that ho has but very obscurely learned it. Here are some of the names: Baby, shortly afterwards a member of I the Government of the hon, gontlemftn, and sinoo eler- ated to the bench ; Costigan, shortly afterwards a member of the Government, and wlio with a slight interval of twenty- four hours, has ever since, continued a member of the Gov- ernment and still graces the Cabinet by his presence i Desjardins— a well known and prominent supporter of hon. gentlemen opposite; Kirkpatrick — now Speaker of this House ; Langovin— shortly afterwards and still a Minister ; Masson— shortly afterwards a Minister, and now Lieutenant-Governor of Quebec; Mousseau —shortly afterwards a Minister, and now a judge — they seem to go up, those Ministers from Quebec ; Ouimot— a firm and persistent supporter of hon. gentlemen, whether in or out of No. 8 ; Plumb, an ardent supporter of hon. gentlemen— rejected by the people, and elevated to the Senate; Robitaillo— formerly a member of the Administra- tion, and upon their regaining power, resuming his seat as a member of the Administration, and who having flitted, as so many of these Lower Canadian Ministers have done, became Lieutenant-Governor, and is now a member of the Senate ; Rouleau— promoted to the Table. I will not go further, but I say, for the benefit of the hon. gentleman's colleague, the acting Minister of Railways, that he was amongst the tea who voted against the resolution. Mr. McCALLUM. You raised the taxes afterwards ; you did not carry that out. Mr. BLAKE. The duties were raised, I think, to 17J per cent, before that, M.LANDERKIN. Two years. Mr. BLAKE. At least a year before that time. Wo mado no obligation that the duties should not be raised for any purpose ; the resolution of the House of Commons was that the arrangements for the Canadian Pacific Railway should be such as that they should not interfere with the existing rates of taxation. Now, Sir, I think you will see that in the year 1876 there was a tolerably unanimous opi- nion in Parliament, and, at any rate, I hardly think that the successor of these many distinguished gentlemen from Quebec, who comes late from his Province, to fill the place of the worthy mon who have gone uj) higher — I do not think that ho is very well entitled to declare that the policy of my hon. friend from East York was a policy of confessed failure and incapacity, in the face of that roso'ulion, assented to by ail these gentlemen, wliich was its governing feature, Ho wanted, Sir, honestly to abide by the terms which hon. gentlemen opposite had professsod to the country they would comply with, and ho was determined to adhere to those terms, so far as ho could. Then the Secretary of State, dealing with this ancient history still further, awi, as it seemed to me, rather gleaning some of his inform- ation at second hand— in short, if I must say it, a good deal of what ho gave us reminded mo of some articles I formerly read in La Minerve—gloamng a good deal of this information at second hand, criticised severely the policy of my hon. friend from East Y'ork in building the railway from Fort William to Winnipeg, and not pro- ceeding at that timo wilh Iho construction of the line on tho north shore of Lake Superior ; and ho also criticised our action in not proceeding vigorously in British Columbia. Why, Sir, I can point to another resolution during the time of ray hon. friend's Premiership, moved by ilr. Dj Cosmos, formerly a member of this House, pressing for the con- struction in British Columbia, which was opposed, not merely by tho vote, but by tho speeches of hon. gentlemen opposite, including the present First Minister, who thought that it was premature,that it was unreasonable pros8ure,that the circumstances had changed, and that construction was not to be hurried in that way. And with reference to the north shore of Lake Superior, I can point to the fact that when theso gentlemen resumed office and propounded the Cana- dian Pacific Railway polloy In 1880, Sir Charles Tapper, Botiog an thoir t^pokeninan in propounding that policy, him- self declared in favor of the deformont of the lino to the north shore ot Lake Superior. lie proposed to build into the prairie and to commence the construction in Brttish Columbia, but he proposed nothing lor the north shore of Lake Superior. On the contrary, bo expressed the opinion that we could not undertake that construction at that time, and at that time the work of connecting Port Arthur with Winnipeg wrg approaching completion. Now, the hon. the Secretary of State passes very harsh criticisms on the con- duct of my hon. friend in the matter of the Canadian Pacific Railway. He declares that he expended much money, that ho expended it fruitlessly, and that very little had been done. I shall road you. Sir, a juster appreciation of my hon. friend's policy. I shall read an appreciation which, since the hon. gentleman seems to have been studying the litera- ture of this subject, I am sorry he did not himself discover. The eminent man, whose utterances I am about to quote, said, in the year 1878: " 1 will britfly refer to the ktnouat of pablic money required In order tu carry to completion works already undertaken, and contract! to which tne countrT it now pled j[ed. The amount of money required to complete the roaa from the ahores of Lake Superior, at Kaminiitiquia or Thunder Bay, to Red River, is eitimated, in round numberi, with a fair equipment, to ooit about 118,000,000. To that, of courae, the country ia committed." He then refers to the subsidy to the Canada Central, to the Georgian Bay branch, to the Pembina briinch. and the telegraph contracts, and so on, as making up the sum of $28,456,000. Now, this eminent publio man said : " I have no beiitation in aaring that the work I have referred to aa involving an expenditure of over $28,000,000 of public money baa lareeiy contributed to remove the difflcultiea and promote the progre^a of tne entire undertaking. 1 hf" ^, tha*. u we originally looked to the development of the great "' Vejt aa the only baala upon which any Government or company undertake the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, so -tnnot bnt regard the ezpendii.ure of $28,000,000 of public money in permeating that difficult, almost Inac- ceasible district of country, between Lake Superior and the Red River, as money expended in a way that is most likely to ao develop, ao improve and so people the great fertile co'iutry of the North- West, as to give us a substantial basis upon which we may hope to succeeed in Sermeating the still more difficult and extonsive region, from the Rocky [ountains down to the shores of the Pacific, and althouRh the expendi- ture of public money han not been made wilhia the Province of British Columbia I am free tJ say that that expenditure, in my judgment, has been made iu a way much better calculated to secure iLe actual reslis- atioQ of this work than if every dollar had been expended in British Columbia, commencing at the siiores of the Pacific, because no expendi- ture in British Columbia could materially contribute to the opening up of that great North-West region, upon the development and upon peopling of which must necessarily depend the successful prosecution of that gigantic undertaking, the Canadian Pacific Railway. Now, Sir, 1 have stated that we have great advantages in the construction of such a work as this. There nas been a great advance made within the pant five years ; not only have we accomplished an important work in pro- viding for an early, rapid and easy communication to our own country, from the shores of Lake Superior to the Red River, but we have acquired information with reference to the North-West Territories which ia iiivaluable in its character. High aa waa our estimate a few years ago, high as was the opinion we were warranted in entertaining as to the capabilities of the great North-West, we were comparatively ignorant of the vast extent of fertile lands of that country. The surveys which have been made, though attended with a large aiiiount of expenditure, are cheap, compared with that which has really been accomplished, in- asmuch aa that we can only hope for the successful accomplishment of this great work by showing to the world the value and chiiracter of that country. 1 hold that the explorations that have been made and the increased knowledge that we possess of its resources place us in a position to appeal tj capitalists much more confidently and aucceasfuUy for thia great work than would otherwise be the case." Such, Sir, is the language of Sir Charles Tupper, speaking as the spokesman of the Government, in introducing their Canadian Pacific Railway policy of the year 1879, with reference to the administration by my hon. friend of matters connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway during the period of his Government. Such was the juster apprecia- tion, such was the fairer view, such was the greater know- ledge, which that hon. gentleman had of wnat had been done, and of the results of what had been done, than the Secretary of State, who comes late into thia House and Books to fill his shoes, bv making spfleohM diametrioally opposite to tho«o which Sir Charles Tupper made. Enow- lodge was fresher then ; the Government nad just come into power ; they were just chosen, after fighting the battle for five years, which had terminated in their success at the polls ; and fresh as they were from that combat, this was the measure of criticism of the policy of my hon. friend which the exponent of the Canadian Pacific Railway policy of the Government of the day gave on that oooasioo. I want no better vindication of the Liberal party or of ray hon. friend, the member for East York, as its worthy representative, than the statement of the hon, gentleman who had been his political critic in Opposition for five years made, when he, himself, had assumed the respon- sibility of Administration. What, Sir.was the work my hon. friend was doing? Nothing? Were the survey moneys wasted? I have Sir Charles Tapper's word for that. Was the woik between Port Arthur or Fort William and Winnipeg a waste of money, unless the line north of Lake Superior was completed ? I have Sir Charles Tupper's word to the contrary, and I have the facts, too. Wo all know that the immigration to the great North-West takes place during the season of navigation, and thut the moment we com- pleted a road from Port Arthur to Winnipeg, the season of navigation gave us a route for immigrants within our own territory, from the moment they touched the shores of the Atlantic to the time they were landed in the North-West. I do not know whether hon. gentlemen opposite do not exaggerate the dangers to which the guileless immigrant is exposed in tiavolling on foreign soil ; I express no opinion on that; but the step my hon. friend took was such aa to provide us, during the whole season of navigation, with a safeguard against those dangers. What of the grain of the country ? During those early years it would not be too great in quantity lor shipment to come down by water from Poit Arthur. So that that construction was, I believe, a wise construction, as part of a system largely taxing our resources, it is true, but still commensurate with our resources — a system which was to develop the great North- West and give us a means of communication with it. We felt, just as Sir Charles Tupper fays, in the lan- guage I have quoted, that the North-West must inevitably bo the backbone of any Canadian Pacific Railway; we felt that the development of the North-West was the prime con- dition on which the success of a Canadian Pacific Railway was possible ; and the step my hon. friend was taking, though, perhaps, a bold step, in the circumstances of the country, was certainly an important step, as acknowledged by his adversaries, in that direction. Shall I go further ? What charge was made in the contest of 1878 against my hon. frie.id, in reference to the Canadian Pacific Railway? Why, Sir, the charge that wa.^ made was one I read the other day in this House. I read from a pamphlet of Sir David Mac- pherson, in which ho attacked my hon. friend for going too fast aud too far. His soul quavered at the idea ot Canada having spent, from the time the project commenced up to the close of the financial year 1876, tho heavy sum of $6,250,000, but he has not blenched tince, when the expense went to « 10,000,000 or $20,000,000 a year. He pointed out that the proper cour.so should have been to rely on the Amoricau roads, and not to attempt to obtain even the Port Arthur connection with tho North-West by water and rail. That was his view, and when I read it the other day, I did not toll, for a minute or two, from whom I was reading; and from tho usual corrier arose the derisive cheers, because hon. gentlemen were sure it must be some Grit who said that. Mr. MoCALLUM, You did not read f^r enough. Mr BLAKE. Well, tho hon. gentleman, I dare say, will finish it somo day ; but 1 think he won't read that pas- sage. I say, I heard tho derisive cheers of hon. gentlemen opposite, because they thought that was the sentiment of I I es diametrioally r made. Know- id joHt come into tbo battle for five 30HH at the polls ; it, this was the on. friend which itailway policy I that oocasioo. ral party or of : York, as its nt of the hon. n Opposition for imed the respon- e work my hon. moneys wasted ? Was the work iod Winnipeg a ^e Superior was i word to the know that the i place daring oaont we com- :, the season of I'ithin our own 9 shores of the I North- West. I pposite do not is immigrant is '688 no opinion as such as to acation, with a he grain of the Id not be too by water from believe, a wise ly taxing our rate with our e great North- nication with 76, in the Ian- ust inevitably Iway; we feit the prime oon- iciflc ilailway iking, though, f the country, edged by his •ther ? What inst my hon, ilway? Why, the other day • David Mac- for going too 9a of Canada lencod up to aavy sum of n the expense e pointed out rely on the jven the Port Iter and rail, er day, I did reading; and because hon. Baid that. lare say, will id that pas- I. gentlemen sentiment of tome Orit, althoQgh W6 know it was the lentiment of an Annexationist, who is fit to enter a Tory Ministry ; but when I mentioned the name, hon gentlemen coa«ed to cheer, and I thought they looked a little chop-fallen. Well, this was the criticism we met with; and I maintain that my hon. friend's policy in reference to the Canadian Pacido Eailway, in the circumstances in which the country stood, was endorsed by the Parliament and the country. There was no irtsueon that subjoot, except the issue raibcd by Sir David Macphorson and hi') friends, through the circulation of this pamphlet. When hon. gentlemen opposite took office they did not depart so much at first from the policy of my hon. friend. In 1879 thev proposed a policy of comparatively slow progress. Tbey tnen tnought British assistance was noceasary; they thought we could not do this work alone, and they decided to apply for Imperial assistance. They declared that they would build a colonisation railway through the North- West, and thev declared that they would make a commencement in British Columbia, but a com- moncomect of a road in both coses of very inferior quality to that which had been before projected. To their pro- position to build through the prairies, no dissent was offered ; on the contrary, it was deemed a very good pro- position. But, Sir, the eastern connection was at that time postponed. The hon. gentleman has shown the danger of getting out of one's depth. He has pointed out, amongst the evidences of incapacity shown by my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Mackenzie), that there was 100 miles of railway which he had built and which the Canadian Pacific Rail- way was obliged to take up and remove. Now, I admit frankly that there was about 100 miles of railway built by the Oovernment which the Canadian Pacific Railway found useless and removed, but it was not built by my hon, friend ; it was built by this Government ; it was built by hon. gentlemen opposite; it was built bj- Sir John A. Macdonald's Government ; and therefore, if that be BQ evidence of inoapaoity, let the hon. gentleman take it to his own heart. The hon, gentleman then referred to my speech in 1880, and he read that portion of it which alludes to the view I expressed in 1874, with reference to these terms of building this railway within ten years. It is true that I entertained, rightly or wrongly — I thought then, in 1880, rightly, and I think now, in 18S6, rightly— the view that it was not possible to comply with the terms of that bargain, and that it would be ruinous to this country to do so. I thought the country was deluded into that bargain, unaer the false pretence that it was pos- sible to do it without creating an increase in taxation; whereas it was impossible to do it without increasing the rate of taxation ; and I was disinclined to ruin my country, and British Columbia, as part of it, in the attempt to perform what I considered to be impossible. But I was not disposed, if British Columbia, after a frank, fair and loyal statement of that opinion, said : We insist upon the bargain being car- ried out ; we will not relax the terms ; we insist on theletter of the bond, and if you say you cannot do it, we wish to be released — I certa'nly was not disposed to hold British Columbia agains ner will; I was not disposed to say : Yes, we trapped you into a union with Canada upon a bargain we now find it impossible to fulfil, but we will not let you go, even if you want to ; we will insist in holding you, though yon wish to go. Un the contrary, I was disposed to say to British Columbia : We are willing to go on and do our best to build this road as rapidly as the resources of the country, of which you form a part, will allow; if that will not suit you, if nothing but the letter of the bond will satisfy you, and if you wish to separate, we will not hold you against your will, on the terms of a bargain which we are unable to fulfil. I said that, and I do not think it was an unjust, a dishonorable thing to say. I think it was a flur, plain statement of what honesty and jastioo demanded of any man from the old Provinces of Canada to say to British Colambia. It waa the least one oonld lay to thai Province, to toll It we would not hold it a slave and leave unperformed the terms of the bargain upon which it entered Confederation. Then the hon. gentleman says that my hon, friend made a proposal for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and that it was a very expensive proposal, because, ho said, ray hon. friend, besides) a subsidy In money and a subtidy in land, proposed a guarantee of 4 per cent, on a certain sum for twenty five years. Now, a portion of this statement is true, but only a portion. It in not all founded on fact; for my hon. friend (ILf. Mackenzie) did not state a sum ; but the hon. gentleman himself stated a sum, the lowest he assumed it would be, and, therefore, he claims that the hon. member for Bast York made that offer. Now, what the hon, member for Bast York did was to advertise for offers to build the railway, stating, such asub* sidy, in cash and in land, will be paid ; if you want more, state for how much more of this guarantee of 4 per cent, will build the road. My hon. friend did not offer a particular sum ; he did not say he would accept the tender ; but he was determined to endeavor to secure un offer, to be submitted to Parliament with the advice of the Gov- ernment, in accordance with the liberal policy which we insisted on while hon. gentlemen opposite were in power. But the hon. gentleman, to make up a large sum of money, puts in this middle and unknown term. He assumes to be a tenderer, and he puts m a tender. I heard the worda *' bogus tenderer " applied a few days ago to a number of very respectable gentlemen; I will not insult the hon. gentleman by saying that he was a bogus tenderer, but certainly he comes late with his tender ; and certainly, if he had come, in 187S or 18Y7, and made that offer, he would have received the response that his proposal was too high. But there is another difficulty. The hon. gentleman names a sum, and he declares that a guarantee or4 per cent, on that sum per annum for 25 years is equal to the capital. He declines the actuarial calculation. He declines to recognise the fact that a portion of this sum outruns, in 25 years, a Eortion in 24 years, a portion in 23 years, and so on, and e actually multiplies 4 by 25, and says that is the proposal; and that is what he calls fair play and frank and loyal criticism. Then the hon, gentleman pointed out that there was a great difference in another point between this suggested offer of my hon. friend and the present position. He said the rolling stock of the Canadian Pacific Railway was nearly 89,000,000, and would be $10,000,000 very shortly. I do not so under- stand it. The term that is used in most communications that reach us upon the subject of that part of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's enterprise, is " equipment," and I do not understand the word " equipment," as they use it, signifies only roiling stock. I understand it to signify in part fixed equip naent, and I base that under- standing partly upon the report of the company, which appeared in yesterday's papers, under which, if I rightly recollect the figures, the company declared their rolling stock to be something like 87,300,000, instead of $9,000,000, so that the hon. gentleman, in that respect, also, has acted upon inaccurate information. The hon. gentleman then adverted to my speech in 1880, and pointed out the estimates that I had laid Dofore the House of the cost of u first-rate road, which had been projected in former years, by the engineers, over the prairie country, and he declared that I had staked my reputation upon the fact that the cost of that road would bo so much per mile, and that this was the same route as the Canadian Pacific Railway had followed. Mr. CHAPLBAU. I did not say that. Mr. BLAKE. Yes ; the same route. Frobubly the hon. gentleman did not mean to say it. f Mr, OHAPLl Atf. ! did not uj It. I wm very oareftil, tad my hon. friend knows why, beoAnse the lino was no* nr the same ronte. Mr. BLAEB. I know it was not, and I want to know why the hon. gentleman, if ho know the line was not the ■ame, vonturod to attack mo for havinsf f(ivon on estimate that applied to the present line. IIo knows well that the present line is a cheaper lino, that it has greater natural nicilities than tho lino to Edmonton. If he will read the report* of tha engineers carefully, he will And that tho river crossings and tho bridges are infinitely more expensive and tho country, is much more broken, on tho Edmonton routo than on the southern routo. Mr. CHAPLBAU. That is not the point. The hon. gentleman said I said tho same line, and I never said so. ^' Mr. BLAKE. I so understood the hon. gontloman. Mr. OHAPLBAU. You could not have so understood it. Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman has no right to say I could not have so understood it. I say I did so understand it, and I will go further: I will say that a belief in tho flair play of tho hon. gentleman oould have led mo to no other conclusion than that bo meant it, because, if be knew it was a different line, and if he knew that tho com- parison was uselotis, why did ho state it ? What is the use of comparing a lino over one region of country with a line over another region of country, and saying that tho par- ticulars in regard to one region of country are applicable to a different region of country ? What 1 stated upon that occasion I havo more than once repeated in this House. My hon. friend, the member for East York (Mr. Mackenzie), was familiar, from his ezperienoo and knowledge as a Minister, with the reports ot tho diflforont engineers, given fV-om time to time, as to the cost of the railway over the then located road. My hon. friend examined those reports and those estimates, and from them he brought out a state- ment of what tho re- lilt of those estimates wa«. It was not my hon. fiiordV estimate; it was not my estimate ; it was tho estimate of tho engineers. What my hon. friend, and what I, as tho u*toror of his statement, though I gave my aathoriiy, Wjie responsible for, was taking reasonable care that we had correctly interpreted tho osti mates of tlie engineers, because that was what wo pro- posod to lay before Parliament. That statement has never been controverted. No hon. gentleman has ever pointed to tho reports of the engineers and shown that their estimates would lead to different conclusions than those which my hon. friend produced and put into my hands, and which, he Bitting beside mo, I gave upon his authority to that extent, and to that extent only. Ue made no estimate ; I made no estimate; but wo took tho estimates of the permanent officers of the Government and laid before Parliament tho result of that information. Bat we all know that this ques- tion is not to be decided upon the estimates of that day, and, in fact, these were estimates, not of that day, but of many years earlier. Wo know that railway construction in the year 1881-92 was very much cheaper than it was in tho previous yearc We know that railway construction in tho year 1883 and in the earlier part— perhaps the whole— of 1884, was cheaper all around, steel rails and all, than it has ever been in the history of the country; and are you not to consider these circumstances when you deal with esti- mates ? Are you not to consider the expense, the cost of labor, tho cost of materials, tho cost of rails, when yon con- sider the question of tho estimates which are given for a road ? What we had to do with was the cost, at the time and under tho circumstances under which construction look place. Now, the hon. gentleman has said that 1 gave tho cost on that occasion as $120,000,000, and the road will only coat— 80 he says— $53,000,000. Now, what did the hon. gentleman mean by that statement 7 What did he mean by patting in JuxUpoaltlon th« two things t I gftv* tbe estimates of tho onginoers fbr tho oonstruotion of the rsad by the Yellow Head Pass in earlier years at $120,000,000, and no one baa ever disputed that that was a correct state* meiit of what the estimates were. Tho hon. gentleman says I estimated the cost of the road, and staked my reputa- tion upon it, at $120,000,000, and now it is costing the country only $53,000,000. I will come to what it is costing the country Jresently ; but, supposing it is costing the country only BB.OO^iOOO, I want to know what wa« the meaning of his putting tho.'O two things in juxtaposition ? Did 1 say it would cost tho country $120,000,000 ? I only stated what tho road would cost, and if a company is to bnild it, paying a part of tho cost, it is very different from tbe country building it and paying the whole cost ; but the hon. gentle- man puts the two in juxtaposition. Then, tho hon. gentleman refers to tho value of the railway lands. I will deal with the question of the value of railway lands a little further on. But, if you will permit me, Mr. Speaker, I will just touch it for a moment now. I was amazed to hear tho hon. gentleman make his statement, and I had a mind, if he had not anticipated me. to have delivered, not in his admirable style, but with saoh humble approach to his histrionic powers as I could make, that lecture upon patriotism which ho inflicted upon this side of the House. The bon. gentleman told us wo need not be afraid of the cultivable lands in the North- West not being valuable, because there was not so much of them; it was a great mistake ; half were rivers, and lakes, and marshes, and, of the other half, as I remember, one-half were ranching lands, and that left only eighty millions of cultivable lands. There is the statement of the hon. gentleman, depreciating this country, belittling our resources, minimising oar assets, polling us down to a poor, beggarly eighty millions of cultivable wheat lands in the North-West, when time and time again we have heard, in the thundering tones of the High Commissioner, the statement of the hundreds of millions of cultivable lands in the North- West. Only eighty millions ! Only the small trifle of eighty millions, which will soon be taken up by— I forgot how many fami- lies he said would take them up — and therefore you may expect your land to increase in value, because the supply will not exceed the demand. Well, that is a great source of congratulation. We will get the more for oar land, because it will all be taken up, because it will soon come to an end. I have always believed, that after all said and done, the main dependence for Canada in regard to the lands of the North- West would bo to pat settlers upon them, who would be prosperous, and whose prosperity and tho Customs duties they would pay would bo the source of our wealth ; that tho main and ruling ingredient in oar policy in the North- West, tho ingredient to which all else should be subordinated, should be to keep the land for the settler and to give every facility for the settlement. Bat, if our estate is so small a farm, so comparatively small as tho hon. gentleman has stated, perhaps the prospects are better of getting more oat of the settlor and making more money than we could when we supposed we had hundreds of millions of cultivable lands, since it appears that after all we have only this trifle of eighty millions. Then the hon. gentleman says that this side wants no road east of Callander, but only a local road. Where will he find that ? Ho seems to think it is an absolute necessity, first of all, that the railway should be one railway, and secondly, that, if the railway is one rail- way, it should be made so by virtae of some great expendi- ture. Now, I have always believed that arrangements could have been made — and perhaps they were, in fact, made, for the mysteries of these transactions have rot yet been revealed to us— whereby existing railways, when their availability and naefblness and value would be much enhanced by their being part of a trank line, c prieto Euttin on. tbe CO it I gftT« the tion of the rsad it 1120,000,000, a oorreot ttate* ion, gentleman ikod my reputa- ting the country ling the oountrjr country only meaning of his Did I say it tly stated what baild it, paying fn the country he hon. gentle- Hon. gentleman I. I will deal lands a little Mr. Speaker, now, I was his Btatoment, )d me, to have \h sach humble aid make, that son this side of ) need not be Vmt not being :hem ; it was a 1 marnhes, and, were ranching iltivable lands, 1, depreciating inimising our lighty millions )8t, when time loring tones of le bandredx of i-West. Only ghty millions, vr many fami- jfore you may e the supply a great source for oar land, it will soon that after all Ida in regard I pat settlers ase prosperity be the Hoarce edient in our hiob all else land for the lement. Bat, ely small as prospects are naking more lad hundreds appears that tity millions. side wants local road. think it is ray should be is one rail- eat ezpendt* irrangementa were, in fact, ns have rot ig railways, value would of a trank line, could be made part of the trunk line by the pro- prietora becoming stockholderH in the groat trunk line, und Eutting in their property at* part of the stock. Oat the on. gentleman Ihinks it is only by paying hard ca>«h, which the company is to pay out of its own resuuroos, or of some resouroee, that this thing can bo accomplished ; and I dare ■ay this thing will grow. I should not be surprised, Hinco we see that the subsidy for the Short Line is to bo nearly doubled this Session, tnat a proposal should be made to buy the line of the Acting Minister of Bailwavf, to buy tho Townships lines, to provide public money to buy thoHO linoH, which are to be parta of,and greatly enhanced in value by the construction of, a through lino ; that tbey are to be enhanced in value by the transaction, and th^a we are to pay more mone}> because of the enhancement of the value. That seems to mo to follow, from the hon. gentleman's lino of argument ; that seems to me pretty olear from vho hon. gentle- man's speech. Then, the hon. gentleman says : The com- pany had /^iven much more than this ; that they brought a railway to Montreal, 345 miles, I was surprised that tho hon. gentleman did not proceed to give \xa tho benefit of all he knows in that direction. How in tho world did the hon. gentleman come to forget the Laurentian Kailway ? I thought he knew all about it, I really did think that that was one phase of the transaction with which the hon. gentleman was perfectly familiar. But when he was stating the eastern acquisitions of the Canadian Pacific £ailway, ho did not tell as one word about the acquisition of the Laurentian Bailway, for about 1300,000. At the same time that the Canadian Pacific Railway Gompanv bought from the Trovernment of Quebec, of which tho hon. gentleman was F'irrit Minister, tho lino from Ottawa to Montreal, they also effected the purchase, undor an Act pansod under his auspices, of the little Laurentian Railway, which they wanted, to use a valvar illustration, just as much as a toad wants a tail ; and it was very handsomely paid for to the hon, gentleman's particular friends. Then tho hon, gentleman pointed out that there was a new policy adopted in 1881, I have pointed out that when the present Government took office, in 1878, their Canadian Pacific Railway policy was, relatively speaking, a cautious policy. I could read yon large extracts from speeches, showing the necessity of going slow, and of caution in the view of the Ministers at that time ; bat in 1881 the^ took the great step and decided upon a con- tract policy, a policy of rapid progress and of completion of the line by 1891 ; a contract policy of enormous money grants, if we include the works the Government was to construct as cash — because, if thoQovornment did not build them, the compsay would have to build them ) thoreforo it is the same thing as cash — of money grants far in excess of anything that had ever been contemplated in connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway. That which had been talked of was $25,000,000 or $30,000,000, but at one fell swoop it was proposed to give $25,000,000 in cash and $28,000,000 in work, and to pay tho surveys, at least $3,500,000. We now find the dfovernment works have cost $29,500,000, so that yoa approach $33,500,000 in money, or $58,600,000 altogether, I say they then proposed that policy, and to that is to be added the Canada Central Railway subsidy, which had been already made, and which will give you $60,000,000 as their cash proposals. I say that was an entire reversal of all former policies, because $30,000,000 had boon talked of as the extreme amount of cash we were to gi^e, and here was a policy to give double that amonnt of cash and about the same quantity ot land, hero was a policy of com- paratively rapid progress, of completion by 1891, of great grants, pecuniary and otherwise, and a policy of great monopolies. We opposed that proposition, and we declared there ought to be no monopolies. We declared that the ooontry ought not to be boand for twenty yonr<4, as the hon. gentlemen opposite propose to bind it. Wo (locluroil the future of tho country ought not to bo fet« terod, as thuy proposed to, and have, fettered it. We pointed out that the prairie country ought to bo developed, and we wore atixiouH to see it develop, but wo said that many lines would bo required for its pronor development. We insisted that the ends of the roid ougnt to be proceeded with more slowly, that more pains ought to be talcon as to the route, that tho progress ought to be slower than was proposed, that tho grants should bo less, and that tho distribution of tho grants should bo such as tosecuro tho completion of tho work with those grants, instead uf being made, in tho way which was proposed, wo insisted that tho early and easy part of the work would be done first, and that we should bo called on to fill up thegap afterwards. We insisted on those things. We said ; There is no finality here, because wo do not know bow much the Government work will cost, because, in the mode in which you are locating those grants, there is no security for tho road being built by means of the grants ; ?ou aro not reserving enough for tho heavy work, he Government promised finality. They declared that tho aids were ample, were appropriately divided, for tho thorough completion and adequate equipment of tho railway, in the first place, while they declared that we would be entirely recouped out of the lands. They declared there would be no grievances whatever from the monopoly. They declared that tho railway company itself woula build plenty of branch lines. They declared that Manitoba could not and would not bo checked, and that tho proposed policy, therefore, would not apply to that Province. Those woto their statements in answer to our views. Now, Sir, as wo have boon called upon lost year, and are called upon this year, to give further importuut aids, to alter seriously tho position of tho country, with roforcnco to this railway, it becomes expedient to understand what tho duclar> ations and promises were upon which the original contract was entered into, so far as the hon. gentlemen are concerned. The First Minister declared that by the contractors taking up the enterprise " they relieved the country of immediate responsibility for building tho road, in a great degree." But, I will prove that the contracted line has been built with our money, and that we have not been relieved from the rosponsi bility of building tho road in any sensible measure whatever. Sir Charles Tuppor, estimating the amount of money for which Canada would get quit of its obligation to build and to work this railway, used these words : " For the coastractlon of the road from likke Niplssing to Fort William, 6S0 mllea, and from Selkirk to Kamloops, 1,360 miles— 2,000 mile; in all — the OoTorument have agreed to [liiy, ia addition to the $28,000,000, $36,000,000 and 26,000,000 acres in land, making a total subsidy in cash of $63,000,003, and in land— estimating the 26,000,000 acres at the same rate that I hare estimated the land under the contract of 1873 and under the Act of 1874, $1 an acre— of $26,00'),000 ; or a total sum to be expended by Canada for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway of $78,000,000." That was the declaration as to the terms upon which we were getting quit of our liability. Fifty-three millions in money is all that we were to spend, and twenty-five million acres of land was all we were to give. What wo have in fact spent and what we are now asked to give I will investigate farther on. Then Sir Charles proceeds to say: " We bare reason to know that all that a command of capital can do they hare the adraotage of; we have reason to know that all thit skill and energy and a knowledge of precisely such work will do, has been secured in order to make this a successful contract." Then he makes a further unfavorable statement of what would happen if the English contractors, even of the great- est skill and capital, had undertaken tho work. He points out that they probably would have failed, and predicts that horrible things would happen, many of which seem to have happened since. Then Sir Charles Tuppor says, again : "I hare the satisfaction of knowing that throughont this intelligent country every man breathed more freely when be learned that the great, eoormooi oadwtaUog of oositructlng aad operatiog the railway waa to b« Itrud from th« iboaldtn oftb* Oor*rnm«Dt, and tht lUblllty th« eoan try w«r« going to Inoar wu to be brought wlthlo, not OTar, the limit which, Id iu priMnt floMoUl oondition, it i* prepartd to meet ; wktbin iiioh llmitt tb»t the proeeedi from the tale of the Uod to be grADted br Parllani^at for the ouaetruetioa of the llae would wipe oat •11 liabllitlei kt do diittat dxj." There was the pledge mode when we were aakod lo make a contract. Our liabilitioa were 153,000,000, and the pro- oeeda of the land at no distant time wore to wipe out every cent of that money and leave us free. Then the Minister of Public Workrt took up the cudgels, and ho is generally rather cautious and precise in his statements. Bat influ- enced, I suppose, by that patriotic exuberance of spirit which his coliuaguo, Sir Charles Tapper, »jmetimeB showed signs, and with which, in his closing remarks, tho Secre- tary of State alito indioatod he was occasionally afflicted, the Minister of Public Works made a very positive state- ment as to the result. IIo said : " Aeoordiog to the contract tiie amoant of mone^ to be glren to the Syndicate li 92S,0O0,000, and the amonot of land 25,000,000 acrei, worth, ■ay, f 1 per acre. To tbeie two iume you bare to add the ooet of the leotioni completed or now under coaitructlon, •• far ai Barrard Inlet, amounting to twenty-eight million doUari, ao that the whole amount that will hare to M expended by this country for completing the PaeiBo Railway li $83,000,000, to which you must add the value uf the land at a dollar an acre, making altogether #78,000,000 • • • Thus, according to oar plan, we (ball hare the whole Paciflo Railway completed lor $78,000,000, and with the guarantee that the company DOW to be Inaugurated will work the road for all time to oome." At that time it was not deemed unpatriotic to insinuate a doubt that there might bo difficulty about working tho road. On tho contrary, those hon. gentlemen who think it very unpatriotic that this matter should be questioned now, themselves took security in 15,000,000 that tho road would be operated. On tho contrary, thoy told us that an enor- mous sum would have to be paid by the company daring tho earlier years to operate tho road, and if we wore paying large and liberal subsidies in monov and land, it was to recompense the company and make them strong enough to operate the line. Tnen, the hon. gentleman, getting into that patriotic fervor to which I have referred, said : <> Does be (Blake) want to drive a hard bargain with tbeie gentlemen 7 What reaaon could there be in attempting to cut them down to ai email a 6gure as posiible, in order to make the company a poor company 7 It li to our iotereat, and to the Interest of the country, that the company ■honld be able to oonatruct (be railway and work it afterwards, so that they shall not come back to us, year after year, and ask us for new terms. We want, once for all, to settle the whole question," etc. Those wore tho opinions of the Minister of Public Works upon the question. Why should we out the company down ; let us deal with them liberally; let us not make them a poor company ; let us make them a rich company, so strong that they will not come to us, year after year ; that they will not come to us in 1884, for example, or in 1885, or in 1886 ; that they will not come to us, year after year, and ask for new terms. We want, once for all, to settle the whole question. Has the hon. gentleman, once for all, settled the whole question by the contract of 1881 ? Have they not oomo back, year after year ; and who will say they will como back no more? Then the hon. gentleman said some- thing which I thought was exceedingly sonBible. I have heard something during the discussion to-day which was entirely opposed to the views of the hon. gentleman. I have heard it pointed out that we ought to regard ourselves as under a deep debt of gratitude to tho contractors for and constructors of this road, and should deal with them in that spirit. What did the Minister of Public Works sa_y . "These men are not going to work that railway for the mere pleasure of doing ao. Tber are not undertaking it for the sake of patriotism. They are undertaking It to make money, and they will make money, because they know that a railway through that beautiful country, settled with a large and thriving population, must give large retams." That was tho hon. gentleman's statement— a plain, business- like statement, such as the hon. gentleman knows how to make. We can see it all now. There is no longer a hazy (Atmosphere about it. It waa the baeineas, and oot the patri< n otic motive ; it wai in order to make money oat of the undertaking that the promoters undertook it ; and the hon, fentleman said ho was aorry if they did not make monev. hope they will make money ; if thoy do not. It will not Be for the fault of hesitating to come here. The hon. gentle- man Hirther said : " The hon. gentleman (Mr. Blake) has referred to the obllgatloai and liabilities of Oanada la eonneotlon wttb tha railway. He says they art undetermined— that they have no flaallty." How much are they nearer finality now ? "( generally find the hon. gentleman very logical, but I fkll to IM his loftlo in this ease. • * * I think our tlabliltles la tha matur arc as well determined as they oould poMlbly be Taking tha land at |l per acre, we have a total of $78,000,000 as the lam we hare to pay. Surely there Is suKulent determlnatlrentst and flnallty In that oaloala- tlon to salt hon. gantlemen." The hon. gentleman was losing hia temper: be ridi- culed the idea of there being anv want of flnailty and de- terminativeness in the calculation. What has happened since ? We have altered tho figures. We have given them $29,500,000, or almost thirty millions since. We are to give thom some more presently. The Secretary of State toUn as to-day that although, when we gave them the loan, we took a mortgage, ana were told we had absolute security under which we oould get the road at figurea appallingly small, dirt cheap, if they failed in fulfilling their bargain ; still tho Secretary of State tolls us that was all a form, that wo all underHtood it so ; but the hon. gentleman waa not here to underi«tand it, and he did not hoar the fervor and earneatness with which any such idea was repudiated by hon, gentlemen, his colleagues, or he would not bavo said what he did say. When that con- tingency was suggested, we wore told that it was a fair and square bargain ; that wo were aakod to advance money because it was clear we wero going to get rid of paying so many milliona if the company mode default. The Secretary of State says wo would have had to have bought up tho stock. What is the use, then, of a mort* gAxe, and of being on the top ? The hon. gentleman makea a oistinction, but it is entirely without a differenoe. He says it is an old loan ; that it never waa intended to deprive those people of their cottages ; that, in fact, our bark waa much worse than oar bite. We took a very stringent mort< gage, but we never intended to enforce it ; it would not have been right to enforce it ; it would have left a stain on the Government to enforce it ; therefore, you aro not to believe all you hear from us. That is the effect of the statement. For we certainly wero told last year, when the bargain waa made, that the mortgage waa a good and valid mortgage, and was to be enforced. The Minister of Public Works said in 1881 : " I have shown, moreover, that not only will the railway be bniU by the Syndicate, but worked for all time to coma ; and that we have sutBelent guarantees in oar land to ensure both these objeoti." That is quite true, if you make a little addition to it— if you pay the necoRsary further sum in order to accomplish that result. The Minister of Public Works further said : " The leader of the Opposition asks why so monitroiu a contrast ai this was brought down to Parliament. I tell blm it was to aeonre our institutions, to Increase our population, to enrieh the country." There was the object — it was to enrich the country. Afler another pause he goes on : " Bon. gentlemen may or may not aee that this is one of thoM great measures toat a party, even in Opposition, should not hesitate to support. This la one of those rare opportunitios that pnblic men have to show how they can appreciate great measures and how tbey can foresee tha future ot their oauntrr. This is a measure which we, at all events, ai public men, as the representatives of the people of this country, consider win be the crowning act of our lives." Well, Sir, you may see that our appreciation of the reanlts of the contract have been somewnat more accurate than that of hon. gentlemen, We declared that the bargain would not be observed ; we declared that more ooDoeauoiu woald be made, and theae oonoessions have been made, Thejr declared they did wanted suggesti Chrmtm there wi 188 1, at aaid: "By leenrn < some " i«7 oat of the t; and Iho bon. t mako money, t, it will not Be he hoD. gentle- i* obllgatloBt ud but I fkil to iM la th« inatUr tr* g tb« iMd St II we bare to pay, if In tbat otieola- per j he ridi- flnaiity and de> has happened kve given them ». We arc to :yorSUtetollfl a the loan, we lolate seoarity oe appallinffly their bargain; IS all a form, gentleman waa lar the fervor ras repudiated he would not n that oon- told that it ) were asked wero going to ompany made Id nave had to ion, of A mort* tieman makea ifferenoe. He ded to deprive oar bark was tringent mort- roald not have a stain on the not to believe he statement. B bargain was id mortgage, Public Works Ittajr be ballt by ad tb»t we have Jeoti." itoit— ifyott complish that ' said : 101 a contrast ai ■8 to aeon re our ouQtry." intry. After e of thoM great litate to lupport n bare to tbow can forenee tba at all eTenta, ti ivaXrj, oouider f the resalta ocarate than the bargain e oonceasioiui made. They 1 i declared that there was ample aeourity, ample iundii; that they did not want any further appli(!ationii for aid. Thoy wanted the matter HOttlod then onco and tor all ; but theNO nuggeHtionM have not boon borne out, Thon, during ObriHtmaM vacation, while the groat debate vrtm going on there waa a mooting at Montreal, on the Uth of January, 18H1, at which Hir Charles Tapper made a speech. Uo said: " We mait go on with tbe work, aad now we are golnB to build the whole railway without eoitiog the people a ilogle dollar?' Thon tho Miniater of Publio MTorkn, who could not attend the meeting, Hont a letter, and litera trripta manet : " Bj glrlog 15,000,000 acrei aod $25,000,000 we will, by our loheme Noora tne building of the railway and Itf working for all time to oome " And persuaded by the assorances of tho Minister of Pablic Works and the elonaenco of Sir Oharles Tupper. the meet- ing oamo to a rosotution approving of the policy of the Government on thiH condition ; " While It llmlta oar outlay and reiponilbllity to a fixed |annual turn.' That was the ground which hod been prosHod upon the meet- ing, and upon that ground those worthy citizens gave it their support. Thoro followed, very shortly, a period of ozpaiJHion, which we know and remember to our cost, Thoro came tho time of the boom, the season of the boasts of the Government — their boosts of progress; the time at which the company announced to them that thoy intended to complete the road in 1886, and groat joy was uttered at that announcement. There came the time of inflated stock, the time of the changed policy about branches, of tho outside schemes, tho time of the inflated estimates of the roBulta to tbe country itself; Ihore came tho good timo for hon. gentlemen of 1882 and early 1883. There came tho time, on the 4th May, 1883, when tho Min- ister of Hallways read a statement to the House, for its information, in making his annual Canadian Pacitio Railway report — a statement from tho Department of the Interior, declaring that, after a careful and exhaustive examination, they had come to the conclusion that the country would receive, within the nine'years ending in 1891, $68,000,000 in cash from the lands of the North- West. This statement was solemnly road, with grave face and measured tones, to provo to us that we were going to be recouped for our expenses. What wero our expenses ? Wo had hoard nothing at that time of the loan of $30,000,000, it was tho original expendi- ture of $28,000,000 or thirty-three and a half millions, just as voa may count it, in Government works and subsidies, and $26,000,000 sabsidy. It was an expenditure practically to bo covered by $68,000,000. Thoy had declared, in 1881, that thoy were going to pay this out of the lands of tho country, and they brought proof to show it by an official document from the office of the Interior, running out the result with a critical, and, perhaps, I might say, an almost suspicious degree of nccui acy, to a figure which neatly covered tho required amount. The Minister of Finance, too, at the suggestion of the Minister of Bailways, forecast the future and gave us estimates for several years. For the years 1882-83 he estimated that we should make out of public lands $1,760,000; we made $1,009,019. For 1883-84 he predicted a surplus from consolidated revenue of $3,000,000 ; we got $754,266. He estimated, as the proceeds of the lands for 1883-84, two millions -and a quarter ; we got $961,636. He estimated a surplas from consolidated reve- nue for 1884-86 of one million dollars. Early in the Session, when he made his Budget Speech, he estimated $360,000, apart from the lands, as the surplus for 1884-86, but I am sorry to say that even that modest surplus has long since disappeared, and has been replaced by appalling figures on the other side of the account. He estimated, as the proceeds of the lands for 1884-86, one million of dollars ; in his Budget Speech for 9b this year he estimates half a million. He estimated a Burnloa fVom consolidated revenue, for 1885-8fi, of one million dollars; in his Budget Speech of this year ho osti- mato, ■,^;'^ks, as to the state of the expenditure. Even .;;■> {."■ tib.- .; d, u.cro arc enormous expenditures proposed ; tiiHV ;■< ■; statement of u very large expendituie between OullaLucr and Port Arthur; a large expenditure for snow sheds; $910,000, or thereabouts, at Coal Harbor ; in the works at Montreal, $ 1,500,000, and largo sums elsewhere ; and on none of these has there been a single re- port. Neither the engineer nor the Minister has reported on one of them ; and no evidence has been fur- nished to this House, oven as to the propriety of one of these oxpondituroH, at all. Even the form of an investiga- tion has not been gone through, still less the substance. So far from that, when we met here, the Speech from the Throne contained no reference to the Canadian Pacific Hall- way. I called attention to this at once, and the First Min- icter said that the Speech contained no reference to the railway because it was not the intention of the Government to invite this House to legislate concerning the railway this Session. Another time I enquired whether he was going to bring down anything. He said it was not the present intention, and so forth. Then, had there been any negotiations? There hadb«en no correapondenoe — there had been verbal conversations, which he did not oare to mention. Then comes the letter of Mr, Stephen, on the 18th of March ; and then long negotiations with the com- < pany, stretching from that time till about the end of April, about six weeks ; and then, at the end of April, oome down these resolutions. Well, Sir, it is clear that if it was plain and ubvious and reasonable, and in the public interest that these resolutions should be made, that the Government hesitated very much indeed about bringing them down. It is clear that the company were at their heels before Parliament met ; it is clear that they have been dogging tfaem ever since ; it is clear that the Government having failed to oome to any agreement to bring down any measure of relief, the company put their proposition on paper on the 18th ot March ; it is clear tnat the Government did not think that a proposition that they could reasonably ask Parliament to assent to. And they took six weeks more before thej^ made up their minds to bring down any proposition at all. It is very clear, therefore, that in the minds of hon. gentlemen opposite this was a matter involving very serious considerations. We met on the 29th of January, and it was not until the dose of the normal pe.iod of the Session, when we ought to have been prorogmng, that they brought down a measure for the Cana- dian Paoino Railway, although tiie subject had been under consideration from a time anterior to the commencement of the Session. Why this hesitation and difficulty about these negotiations ? Why this pressure on onO side and ibis resistance on the other, if the matter was so clear and straight and obvious — if hon. gentlemen opposite would have been so plainly recreant to their duty if they had neglected to bring down the measure at all ? it is there- fore very plain Ihat hon. gentlemen opposite felt that they were in a painful position — a position of great difficulty and doubt as (o whether they should bring d iwn any measure at ali. But other efforts were made to get information. I, myself, a little misdoubted the Government's power of resistance. 1 knew, of course, it would take a great deal of pressure after what had happened in i881, and after what had happened in 1884, before they oame down, but I always was inclined to be//oVe that the pressure would be applied, and that to it they would ultimately yield. I felt, it therefore, very important to attempt to be prepared and that this House should be prepared, with full informa, tion with reference to the operations of the Canadian Pacific Eailway, financially, and as to the earnings and working expenses of the road, and as to construction, and as to esti- mates from the period of the last loan ; and very early in the Session I moved a series of motions on that subject, almost all of them being motions which were based on information given and thought proper to be given on the occasion of the last loan, or information given under Addresses granted by this House. The House unani- mously adopted these motions ; and by the unanimous con- sent of the Commons House of Parliament, it was indicated to His Excellency that it was in the public interest this information ought to be obtained. This infor- mation should bo obtained. I shall not now, having a large area of ground to travel over, go over the several Addi-esses which, at a very early period of the Session, have been passed, asking for this information ; but I will say this, that ;t was the duty of the Government to have pointed out to the Canadian Pacific Railway that if that company expected the Parliament of Canada to grant their application for aid they must comply with the demands of Parliament for information as to the operations of the company, and to have declined to bring forward measures for aid, unaccompanied by that information which Parliament unanimously decided it was in the public interest should be obtained. That infor- mation is a moBt important element* As to the working of 11 [)ondenoe — there did not care to Stephen, on the with the coin- he end of April, pril, oome down i'it was plain and terest that these nment hesitated >wn. It is clear ["ore Parliament ging them ever ]g failed to oome ire of relief, the on the 18th of t did not think reasonably aek took six weeks inds to bring ' clear, therefore, osite this was a as. We met on he close of the ght to have been are for the Cana- had been under commencement difficulty about >n oiiO side and vas so clear and I opposite would ity if they had all ? It is there- jposite felt that sitioD of great they should nt other efforts myself, a little of resistance, deal of pressure and after what came down, e pressure wonld nately yield. I to be prepared th full informa, Canadian Pacific igs and working , and as to esti- very early in on that subject, were baaed on e given on the in given under House unani- unanimous con- amont, it was in the public od. This infoi"- V, having a large ovoral Addrestjcs sion, have been rill say this, that e pointed out to mpany expected iplication for aid Parliament for any, and to have unaccompanied imouBly decided ncd. That infor- the working of the road, as to what has been done with the public money and with the resources of the country, as to the results of operations, as to the expenditure and the fate of large sums of more or less questionable character which were in the accounts of last year— for example, the $600,000 alleged to be due by the Northern American Contracting Company to the Canadian Pacific Pailway, and other sums — yon find no information given at all, and a few of the less important papers are placed on the Table to-day, five minutes before this I debate commences, by the Minister of Railways. Almost J as a mockery, he says, I will give the papers just about I when I am about to make the motion. I have not been I able, of course, to investigate these papers ; but, on glancing I over them, I find they are not so full as they ought to be, I and are not the papers of importance the House desires to I possess. I ask, why should not these papers have been pro- I pared by the company earlier, because they were asked I tor throe or four months ago, many of them early in I February last, why should they not have been brought I down here in time for us to examine them in such a way that we might intelligently proceed to a dis- cussion of the question. I say that the accounts of the Canadian Pacific Kailway, as they are submitted to Parlia- ment and the public, are in a shape so condensed and contain figures that vary so that it is difficult in the slightest degree to analyse them. I think, that when information which would throw some light on this grant is asked for by Parliament, the company, which is demanding Parliament for further assistance, ought to comply with the demand of Parliament. Full information is a condition precedent to our acting. We are not, to use a vulgar phrase, to go it blind ; wo ought to get the information before being asked to vote the money. The Acting Minister of Railways, at an earlier period of the Session, also made a speech on this subject. He pointed out that he had visited the country, that he had gone over the railway, and bespoke in termwjof enthusiasm of the railway itself, and of the Syndicate, and of the scenery of the RocKy Mountains. I was delighted to hear him, ordinarily some what unimpassioned, cool, and calculating, so exhilarated by that mountain air and those glorious prospects, that he indulged in these unwonted expressions of joy, and in such an appreciation of the picturesque. His railway journey reminded me a little of another railway journey that is memorialised in verse by Mr. Leland, and which I will take the liberty of paraphrasing : "John Henry rent to Bbtepben ; rio drafel fast und far. He ridei ahoost drei dousand miles All in TJQ rail-roat oar. He knowed foost rate how far he goed — He gouQted all de rile, Dare vaMi shoost von bottle of champagne, Dat bopped at efery mile." I have no doubt, in the hon. gentleman's case, it was Appolinaris water and not champagne, but that would not suit the metre, and so I am obliged to use the ordinary liquor. The hon. gentleman went in a railway car, as several of his colleagues have done, without seeing very much of the railway, and he declares that the company has done more than they agreed ; but after all what they have done and propose to do is what is necessary in order to have a good road. If there be one thing more than another which, at the time of the contract, and since, has been impressed upon our mind, it is that the road was to be a first-class road. We objected to the standard of the Union Pacific, as the Govern- ment put it in the contract, because it was a very imperfect standard. " Oh, well," they said, " there is no use to talk about that, because the company is certain to build a first- class road it every way ; it is in their own interest to do so." " Whv then," we asked, " put in any standard ? " " We must/' they said, " put in some standara." We urged that they siiould not put in a low standard, and they actually got a letter {torn the contractors to say that they consented to the standard of the Union Pacific, as it was at the time of the completion of the road in or about 1873, and not as it was at an earlier period ; in fact, as it was when thoy had got it up to something like a first-class standard. Then, and every year since, whenever the Pacific Railway was touched, wo were told that the road the company agreed to build was no mean, shabby, colonisation road, but a first-class railway; that the standard was a high standard, and that they were building a road as good or bettor than the standard. Now, the hon. gentleman says thoy have done more than they agreed to do ; but what they have done it was necessary they should do in oi-dor to make the road a good one. Did they not agree to do all that was necessary in order to make the road a first-class one ? Was it not to bo a first-class road ? If they are indulging in fancy exponditura more than is necessary for a good road, I do not see why we fchould furnish them with the money. By the agree- ment they are bound to do all that is necessary to havo a first-class road. That was the interpretation of the contract forced upon us by hon, gentlemen opposite, and that is what wo have a right to expect. The hon. gentleman said wo owed a great deal to the company. I thought, until ho told us so, that it was the other way — that the company owed $30,000,000 to us. But he said we owed them a great deal ; and I suppose by theso resolutions we are to pay them what we owe. His colleague joined, in a minor strain, in the same harmonious chorus. Ho said wo owed a tribute to Mr. Stephen, and he proceeded to pay Mr. Stephen an oratorical tribute. I have no objection to his paying Mr. Stephen as many oratorical tributes as ho pleases. No doubt Mr. Stephen deserves them, and I would be the last to say a word refiocting upon his title to the tribute ; but while the hon. gentleman may pay his mag- nificent oratorical tributes to Mr. Stephen— and I am quita willing to give cordial assent to almost any tribute of that kind he may pay— I am opposed to the proposition to add to the oratorical" tribute this oihor kind of tribute mentioned in the resolution. That is the sort of tribute people object to. They do not object to speeches lauding public mon, but thoy do object to the hon. gentleman saying wo owe tho president a tribute, and moving a resolution declaring that wo pay tho company cash. We owe tribute to the president, thereforo lot us vote the money. It really becomes serious. I would like to know when we shall havo done paying tribute to tho company in tbe shape of money. I did suppose we had en- tered into a business transaction, in which we had given a particular price for the accomplishment of a particular object, and that there was no obligation on either side, except tho obligation on cur side to do our part as contracted, and on theirs to do theirs as contracted. Then the hon. gentleman said that they did a great deal more work than they were re- quired to do, and thoy did this at this timo.bocause they could do the work cheaper while the main work was going on ; and he declared, in another part of his speech, or his colleague did, that the statements about extravagant expenditure duo to haste were entirely erroneous, t can hardly think that either of these gentlemen have road the papers which havo been laid upon the Table on this subject. Will yon believe it. Sir, that theso hon. gentlemen, who declare that it was cheaper to do more work than the company were doing at the time, while thoy wore pressing on construction, these hon. gentleman who declare that no increased cost was produced by speed, have laid upon the Table of this House papers with reference to tho work through tho Kicking Horso Pass, which are to the following effect ; Mr. Van Home declares, on behalf of the company, that in the estimate which the company made, with reference to the sum required to complete the railway last year, on the occasion of the loan, he included a sum for a temporary line round a por- tion of the Kicking Horse Pass, as well as for a permanent line at that part. I will not pledge myself to absolute accu- racy, but my reoolleotiou is that the figure for the per* 12 manent line was $960,000, and the estimate for the temporary lino a trifle over $100,000, Mr. Van Home declares that he made that double estimate because it had been his intention to build the temporary line first and then the permanent line almost immediately afterwards, within the period proscribed, by September, the temporary line to be built in order to get on with the operations beyond. He then proposes, in this letter to the Government, to get per- mission to postpone the construction, for some years, of the permanent line, for reasons to which I will allude a little farther on, and he says : If you will allow me to do so, it will be a positive saving, because, by taking time and by using the ties and rails in the temporary line, I can build the permanent line for so much less that it will save actually the amount of the cost of the temporary line ; the price of labor is so high, and it costs us so much more to do the work quickly within the specified time, that we will save the whole cost of the temporary line we are going to con- struct if you will allow us to postpone the permanent line; it will cost us 50 per cent, more to build that $960,000 of work within this time we have stipulated for than it will if you allow us some further time to do it. The report of the chief engineer of the Government is that his opinion is, and that he himself estimated for that twelve or thirteen miles of permanent line, about $960,000, and that in that estimate he added 60 per cent, to the cost, in consequence of the speed of construction, and that he believed it will cost no more than, I think, some $630,000 or $640,000— as I said, I will not profess to be accurate to a few thousund dollars — if time is given for the construction of this permanent line, being less by 33J per cent, than he had estimated, when he added 50 per cent, to the cost of com- paratively leisurely construction for expeditions construc- tion. Now, there are the papers on the Table of this House proving how much extra it has cost to build this line at the speed at which it was built, and with these papers and the company's statement, and the Government engineer's statement, brought down by hon. gentlemen opposite, they ask us to vindicate this extra expenditure as a prudent expenditure, because it could be done cheaper now, while they were straining every nerve, hiring every available man, and raising the price of labor, than it coiUd be done later on 1 floware we to take it ? 1 have the statement of the vice-president of the company and of the Government engineer as to its costing 50 per cent, more in this particu- lar part to build this railway with speed. I have the state- ment of the Acting Minister of Eailways, that it is cheaper to do the work in a hurry than it is to do it with more time. Which am I to believe ? Then the hon. gentleman said — and he came there to a very tender point — that we had no right to anticipate the necessity for these works last year. He said that was the difficulty, and there wo get back to the allegations of last year. We find that last year the statement was made as to theplan upon which this comp.Hny was to construct the road. We find last year that their plans were made for completion. We know that they were plans for a first-class road. We know that they were plans involving large expenditures. We know that they contemplated the construction of elevators and of great works, and we were told last year that the subsidy, the aid that we were giving was ample to complete the road. The contract is to complete the road. Now, the hon. gentleman says that the contract will be completed in September. I deny it. I say our contract will not be complete in Sep- tember. Our contract with the C8nadi.'\n Pacific Bailway Company was to have a completed road. They will have the iron down by September, but they themselves say they are not going to open the road for business till the spring following. Why are they not ? Why in the world are you not going to open the road and to reap all the profits which are to accrue the moment the road is opened ? What means this insanity, of keeping » road some thousands of miles long closed to traffic some months after it is completed ? Open your doors, run your trains, take your freight trains across, from one side of the continent to the other, and reap your dividends. Oh, no, they say ; we are not going to begin till the spring of 1886. And why ? Because the road is not going to be completed till the spring of 1886, because all that is going to be done is to get a pair of rails from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Of course, there are parts of the road, and considerable parts of the road, which are completed ; but according to the confession of the company, the entire road will not be completed till next year. They say, forsooth, that the contract is completed. They say that all they have agreed to do will be completed by September. I say our contract was to hare a road quite complete, a road fit to carry traffic, a road in such a con- dition that the traffic could be carried over it, a road to be opened, and then, from the time of opening, the agreement as to maintenance went on. They say : We will have com- pleted the contract in September, but the road will not be so far finished that we can open it up for traffic. No, it will not be completed ; else, I presume, they would open it for traffic ; but in many respects, even if it were open for traffic, it would not be complete, in the proper sense of the term. I observe that an eminent engineer, who was for many years connected with this TOM, and is now a director of it, Mr. Sandford Fleming, after passing over a portion of the road the other day, sent a telegram, in which he stated — I cannot remember the exact woixls — that either a large quantity or a considerable quan- tity of work remained to be done, but it was of the simplest character. Well, we know that a large quantity remains to bo done between Callander and Port Arthur, because a great portion of the places that have to be crossed are crossed by trestles, not only small rivers, but ravines and depressions in the ground of various kinds, are crossed by trestles. Of cjurse, these trestles are intonded to be filled up with earth, and I presume the simple kind of work Mr. Fleming speaks of refers to that. JSow, I do not care whether the work is simple or complicated ; what is important to consider is, that there is a large quantity of work remaining to be done, and that is the statement in this very telegram. The circumstance to wh'ch I have just alluded, and the other circumstance, of the road not being intended to be opened for business to the Pacific until the spring of 1886, are suf- ficient indications that we are not getting a completed road. The hon. gentleman says we are getting all we really bar- gained for, because the road is completed within the mean- ing of the contract. But it is not completed so as to befit for use i it is not completed so as to be serviceable for the purpose for which we wanted it ; for that purpose you have got to pay more mo» -^ . The statements which are made upon this subject, und also with reference to the atfeot and consequence of this loan, are material in considering our preseni. condition. Sii' Charles Tupper said : " They aie is a poBitio" to say to the OoTernmeat, we caa fall back upon our eontract ; we can diibaad our force of 9,000 men now opera- tiaa near Lake Superior ; we can draw in our engine, and by lat Hay, 189i, we Bball be enable, to sell land enough to provide with the net revenue (or operating all that we require. " We shall have the means of completing our contract ; bat if you want that great work completed by the end of 1885, we ask you not to give as an additional dollar, but to advance to us, as the work proceeds, the amount of $23,500,000 for that parp-^se. I have told the House, in the Srst place, that they do not ask an additional dollar of subven- tion for the purpose of completing the contract they have made with the Government " ! have told the House the company have the strongest confidence in the valu*- -^f the subvention already given ; that with the amount that can be obta. icd from the outside public and that has been obtained from the outside public, they have the means of completing their contract. But while they do not ask the House to give them a Eingle additional dollar, they ask us to use the credit of this country which, thanks to the management of my ooUeasue, the Minister of Pinaoce, never stood in a higher position, to obtain tna means of accomplishing this great national work by the end of 1885, and that without imposing the slightest ibadow of a ihade of additional burden upon the Qovernment or upon u if • it is completed ? ike your freight iontinent to tlie they say ; we are 1886. And why? ited till the spring ae is to get a pair Of course, there )art8 of the road, I confession of the ompleted till next let is completed, will be completed ha^e a road quite oad in such a oon- er it, a road to be ig, the agreement Ye will have com- road will not be so for tra£Sc. No, ime, they would ■espeots, even if lot be complete, e that an eminent nected with this )rd Fleming, after /her day, sent a nember the exact lonsiderable quan- as of the simplest quantity remains rlhur, because a } be crossed are but ravines and inds, are crossed I intended to be iple kind of work Wow, I do not nplioated ; what lere is a large done, and that he circumstance ler circumstance, be opened for ot 1886, are suf- i completed road, we really bar- rithin the mean- so as to be fit ?icoable for the arpoae you have rhich are made the alfect and considering our t, we CM fall back 00 mea now opera- 9, and by Ist May, oride with the net Qtract j bat if yoa we ask you not to the work proceeds, ve told the House, dollar of aubven- bare made with the trongeBt confidence ith the amount that been obtained from Ing their contract. . cingle additional hich, tbanka to the :e, nerer stood in a ; this great national Dsing the slightest DTernment or upoq I 1 i the coantry for the repayment of erery dollar by th« UqM til^ oontafct was to be completed, the lit Uay, 1891." First of all, then, Sir Charles Tupper declared that the contract was to be completed and the road was to be completed, and now we are told that the contract is completed bat the road is not completed. Then, Sir Charles Tupper savs : " You are " to do this without imposing the slightest shade of a shadow " of additional burden upon the Government or upon the " country for the repayment of every dollar by the time the " contract is to be completed, the 1st of May, 1891." I wonder to what date the new loan, now under nego- tiation in London, is to run ; I wonder for how many years the Minister of Finance is asking the public to loan us the $30,000,003 which we authorised him to borrow the other day. Is it a short loan, to mature in 1891, so that he may not be embarrassed, as he stated a while ago he would be embarrassed, by the circumstance of getting so much money from the Canadian Pacific Bailway Company by 1891 ? I wonder whether it is a short loan of that kind that the Minister of Finance is now making, or whether he has abandoned those golden dreams which, so late as the Budget Speech, haunted him, of receiving from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company $30,000,000 by 1891, and earlier. Perhaps some hon. gentleman — perhaps the Minister of Cus- toms — who knows the date of that loan, would relieve our minds, and would tell us whether it is a short six years' loan, that the Gk>vernment ma^ use until they get the $30,000,000 from the Canadian Pacific Etailway, in 1891. I am afraid that they have abandoned that hope ; I am afraid they have decided it will be a good many more years before they get back their money. I am afraid that there now exists more than the slightest shadow of a shade of an additional burden upon the Government or upon the country, for the repayment of every dollar by the time the contract was lo be completed, the 1st of May, 1891. You know that already, in consequence of this loan, we deferred negotia- tions for the exchange of 5 per cent's, for 4 per cent's, for six months, because the Minister, having to provide a large sum of money for the Canadian Pacific Bailway, felt that he could not call in the old loani Yon know that we lost the interest, being the difference between S's and 4'8 for the half-year, and have been making various other short loans in order to pay this Canadian Pacific Bailway; wo have been making various other loans at some pretty fair rates of interest for them, too. The hon. the First Minister sometimes says that a little bird told him something. Well, Sir, a little bird told me something, it told me that 6^ per cent, has been paid for a portion of this money borrowed for a certain time from some of the banks. Well, when wo are borrowing money from the banks in order to pay the Canadian Pacific Bailway, and when we have got to give our Exchequer bills for other money ; when we are told now, as wo are in effect told, by the silence of the Ministers, that the expectation of getting the loan in 1891 is abandoned, and that we have to make a long loan instead of a short loan, it is evident that the words of Sir Charles I upper, which I have read, have hardly been verified. Then, says Sir Charles Tupper : " I do not rest these resolutions for a single moment on the low ground of any claim that these gentlemen (the Canadian Pacific Rail- way Uompaoy) bare. They have no claim. Tbpy made a contract, and they received, by the terms of that contract, a magnificent lubren- tive for the work, great as it was, that they were undertaking to deal with ; and they have, no doubt, prospective profits of a large character before them. 1 do not ask, for a moment, that these resolutions ihall receive the couiideration of this House on any sacb claim." At that time, also, it was as a business operation this was treated, though now, it seems, there is an attempt to treat it on some other and so-called higher ground. Now, the Acting minister of Railways declared that our security was actually improved by this operation — it was not a loan un- impaired; that would not satisfy the Minister; he wants to improve our position, and so be improves it by this operation. Why ? Qooaose the money had been pat into the work. Bat it was contracted that the money should be put into the work. That was the security on weich the old loan was made. It was upon the express agreement that the money should go into the work. It has gone there, and the money is going to stay in the work. To tell us that our position is improved by the money going into the work seems to be perfectly absurd. The hon. gentleman says that thirty-five millions of stock was to go into the work. I deny it. The whole theory of the arrange- ment of last year was that the stock was not saleable. The Government took it, and said : We take power to sell it, if we think it rises to a price at which it should be sold, and we take Tpr'T'.i to ase the proceeds at our discretion, either in payment of the debt or for the purposes of the company. The company could not have disposed of the stock, because the Act of Parliament gave the Government the discretion to say when it shoald be sold, and whether the proceeds should be applied towards payment of the debt or not. The Minister of Railways, who was presiding over the measure, proclaimed that it was to be so applied; that the amount was to bo used as a means of repaying the loan. But the hon. gentleman said, what are we doing ? We are making another arrangement in respect of $35,000,000. This new arrangement, about $35,009,000, is an arrangement of an entirely different character. If the money had beea realised from the stock and had gone into the work below our security, and the stockholders had no special claim, our mortgage would be improved by the value produced by the amount that went into the work. Bat if we gave power to the company to place, say, $15,000,000 on a par with ourselves, and that sum goes into the work, we occupy a different position. Lot the Minister of Bailways, as a first mortgagee of a farm, consider a mortgage tiansaction, and soo what is the situation supposing a second mortgage is put on after the first, for improvements on the mortgaged property. He then would be in a very good position, because he would be able to cut out the second mortgage, and his property would be made more valuable. But suppose the mortgagor came to the Acting Minister of Bailways, his first mortgagee, and said : Mr. Pope, I want to improve the property, and for that purpose to put a mortgage on it, which will standin the same position as your mortgage ; in fact, I want to have a joint mortgage. I think the Minister of Bailways would lie acute enough to see that he would be placed in a different position ; that his position, although the money went into the property, would not be quite so good as if it had been placed there under a second mortgage. So with respect to the stock. Then, the hon. gentleman declares tnat this arrangement will give satisfaction. Ro makes a statement with respect to the Government work, and admits an error in the calculation of a million and a-half. He excuses the error by saying it is*due to the doterioralion, the wear and tear, that resulted daring the six or seven years since the road was constructed. Was that not known last winter ? Did not the Government, which had charge of the road, know its condition ? Were they not awaro of what was necessary to pat it into proper order ? Is it only this Session that it is known that ties and rails wear out and the roadbed gets into a bad condition ? Last winter we were told emphatically that twenty-eight millions was the cost of the Government work. It is strange, indeed, that they were not in a position, last Ses- sion, to say that this large sum would be required. I remember there were loud boasts made,when this Govern- ment came in, as to the savings on this section. They said they had cut down the amounts very low ; but it has since turned out that they have increased the expenditure. The hon. gentlemen who have brought this measure forward have submitted a statement by Mr. Stephen, which is the fouudatioivof the measure. Mr. Stephen's letter ooataiued ft proposal on his part as to what the Government, fn his opinion, onght to do for the company, and what the com- pany would do if their wishes were complied with. The Government declined to accede to Mr. StophonV proposal. 1 enquired whether, under the arrangements made for the altered proposals, the company had agreed to perform those things which they said in their letter they would per- form, provided their own proposals were acceded to. And I coula not get a satisfactory answer. I got it yesterday. It came in the report of the company, at their annual meeting. They think they have been rather hardly used by the Government. Mr. Stephen's letter will show the House that last Session the company remonstrated earnestly but ineffectually against the harshness of the Government, and pointed out the bad results that would flow from that haruhness. The company says : " The compaoT, it will be remembered, at the time of the pMsage of the Act, eamestlj, but ineffectaally, remonstrated against the severity of the conditions on which the loan was fronted, especially pointing out the damaging effect on the future credit of the company of the stringent and apparently inequitable character of the remedy taken by the QoTernment, in the event of default by the company, and their •ppreheoBions in these respects hare been fully realised." You will see, though we were not told it last year,that we were held to be harsh creditors,dealing with a reluctant debtor,and that we were going to injure the company by the severe terms imposed. They appear to oe very good terms. The company, however, it seems, remonstrated against the Government lending them thirty millions, part at 5 and part at 4 per cent., and taking over the i cad if the company fail to payback the money. We find now that the Government, on default being made, would not have taken over the road. We find that it was all a fnrce and a deception, and that it was useless to append that condition to the loan. I believe in making a bargain in plain terms, which will be carried out, and that a con- tract should express what is really intended. Hon. gentle- men opposite nave told the House and the country that the arrangement with tbe company meant one thing, while they had a personal understanding with the company that it should mean something entirely different, something much less ; that, if it became necessary to take over the road, the stockholders were to be dealt with on reasonable terms. Such is the statement of the Secretary of State, who then, as now, was a member of the Administration. If that be so, it is a most extraordinary commentary on the decision of Parliament, on the speeches made .tkI the representations given to the country at that time, but we see the fatal effect. Mr. Stephen comes forward and says that if the Government grant the terms he asks the company will be enabled to complete the whole railway, to build the line to Coal Harbor, to construct the terminal works at the various points, to provide additional equipment, to build elevators and to pay off Ijthe fioatiqg debt, and so on ; and then, after this in done, he^says : " It would then be in a position to proceed, Ist, with the much wanted extension of the Hanitoba Soath-Westein Railway; 3nd, with the completion of the line to Sault Ste. Marie ; 3rd, to secure, in some way, a connection with the city and harbor of Quebec ; 4th, with reasonable aid from tlie Qovernment, to extend the Canadian PaciBc system to the oc«an ports of the Maritime Provinces; 6th, it would also be in a position to aid indirectly in securing the early completion of its Ontario division to the Detroit River, and at the same time removing for ever all necessity for any further application to the Qovernment for assistance on the part of the company." These seven things he speaks of, showing that we have not removed that necessity by the last Act, though we were told so, and unless we grant this condition we do not remove that necessity, yet I find that in the report of the company, as it now stands, they say : " This measure i\ % not affiird means for so complete and advan- tageous an arrangement of the companr's affiiini as wonld have been obtained under the conditions Buggestea in tbe president's letter of the 18tb March last." • They go on to say t " But the oompany is being pressed io several qaarten for exteniioai and additional facilities beyond its main line, some of whioh it desires to provide ; and although the directors hope that the measure proposed may also enable them to meet the more important of these requirements, it remains to be seen how far the Oovernmeot measure, la redacing so largely the relief the company requested, may not restrict Its power of providing for the extensions of its connections whioh the company and the public,and, it is believed, the Qovernment, also, so desired to see oar- ried out ; any may not also interfere with tbe intention and wish of the company to antloipata the period of tbe lepayment of the Ctovernment loan." There yon see, Sir, the direct statement, very pointed, that it id not expected to be within their power to carry out these various things which they proposed to carry out, which they pledged themselves to carry out, if they got their own terms. So we have not now the assurance that the con- ditions of Mr. Stephen's letter will be fulfilled; but, on the contrary, we have a fair and frank statement, which it does him credit to have made, that those terms are inadequate to produce such results. In that point of view, I think wa have important considerations pre- sented to us. It does seem to me that it is necessary for us to know what this arrangement will accom- plish. Sir, we have been asked to assist this company once and again, and now for the third time — to make the con- tract first, to assist secondly, and now to assist again. And we want to know '''Htinotly what is going to be accom- plished. Is this to bu the last time of calling ? How much is the deficiency ? What changes are to be made ? What additional expenses incurred, in order that these things sliull really be done ; else this will not be the last time of asking, and we must expect to be called upon again? The hon gentleman dealt, in this portion of his speteh, with the question of the route of the road, and he gave US some statements as to the route, and some com- parative statements with reference to this road, and the other Pacific roads which demand some atttention at my hands. I did not intend to say much upon that topio, nor, indeed, had I intended to touch to any great extent upon the topics which have occupied me up to this time, but the unusual course which was pursued, in making two speeches, and dealing with all phases of this question, from the earliest period to the end, of course rendered it necessary that an answer should be made at the earliest pra^'ticable moment, *nd as fully as it could be by one individual, with such disadvantages as one individual labors under in speaking at this hour in the night, and after the House has been sitting nearly 12 hours, fiat those statements demand from mo, and they shall receive, reply. I have not been able to agree to the wisdom of the change in tbe route of the Canadian Pacific Hallway. I have never been able to see that it was dictated by a wise appreciation of all the facts, properly collected, before the decision was arrived at. I maintain that the decision was arrived at and acted on by the company, long before they had found the route through the Kicking Horse Pass. I maintain that they, having determined to risk the Kicking Horse Pass route, have in the end, persuaded the Government, daring the absence of Sir Charles Tupper, and while the hon. gentleman who is now acting was acting as Minister, \x- agre to a modification of his former policy. Mr. Speaker, it has just been intimated to me that the Government is willing to consent to an adjournment. 1 am sorry to ask it, but as I am answering two speeches late at night,it would be a convenience to me, as I have a good deal to say yet in reply to them. Sir HECrOR LANGEVIN. It was intimated just now that the hon. gentleman was about one half through his speech, and that he was desirous of an adjournment. Under these circumstances, perhaps h« will move the adioa>-nment ofthedebat*. ' u en for exteniioai ' whioh it desires measure proposed ese reqtiiremeatg, e. ia redacinn so ;rict its power of the oompaQy nad lesired to see oar- II aad wish of the ' the Gk)verDmeat ' pointed, that r to carry oat »rry out, whioh r got their own that the coa- d ; but, on the tement, which loso terms are that point of derations pre- it is necessary will accom- thls company ) make the oon- it again. And to be acoom- ? How much made ? What )t these things I the last time called upon portion of his ) road, and he nd some com- road, and the ttention at my lat topic, nor, extent upon I time, but the two speeches, tm the earliest ecessary that cable moment, lal, with such in speaking at ts been sitting and from me, able to agree the Canadian ee that it was acts, properly I maintain on by the oute through . they, having route, have daring the lile the hon. as Minister, policy. Mr. to me that adjournment, two speeches , us I have a ted just now throogh his mont. Under > adjournment Mr. BLAEB moved the adjournment of the debate. Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned. Sir HBCTOR LANGBVIN moved the adjournment of the House. Motion agreed to; and the House adjourned. at 12:20 a.m., Wednesday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wkdnxsdat, nth June, 1886. The SpiAKxa took the Chair at half-past One o'clock. Pbatxbs. CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY RESOLUTIONS. The House resumed the adjourned debate on Mr. Pope's proposed motion, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair lor the House to go into Committee of the Whole to consider certain proposed resolutions respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Mr. BLAEB. When the House adjourned last night, I was adverting to the question of the route of the railway, upon which something requires to be said, not merely in consequence of the intrinsic importance of the question, but also because reference has been made to it by hon. gentle- men opposite in connection with the other important ques- tion of grades, curves and alignment of the road. I pointed out that I had not been able to assent to the views that it was a prudent thing to change the route of the Canadian Pacific Railway. The hon. gentleman, the Secretary of State, declared— as I showed from the language of Sir Charles Tupper last night, erroneously — that the surveys which had oeen made under the auspices of the hon. mem- ber for East York (Mr. Mackenzie) bad been entirely use- lesst I admit a portion of these was less useful than it would have been had the route adopted by botJi Governments, that by the Yellow Head Pass, been fortu- nately retained. It is to be remembered that the present Government, as well ao the Government of my hon. friend, formally adopted that loute which these surveys led them to conclude was the proper route ; and it was not until after the enterprise had been placed in the hands of the Canadian Pacific Railway that the present Government agreed to a change of route. That change was dictated by considcratioUB which did not give due attention to the topographical features of the country through which the road was to pass. I mnko that statement without hesita- tion, because the public papers prove that there had been no ascertainmeDt oi a real practicable route when the com- pany began to press upon the Government to accede to thoir determination to go south. I believe the company snoculiited on the possibility of a route being lound through the Rockies, the Selkirk and the Gold ranges, and that they were anxious to secure a southern route through the ])rairieH for two reasons. First, because it was known to be an easier line, one requiring no consider- able bridges, requiring none, in fact, of importance except one across the Saskatchewan and a much less expensive one across the Assiuiboine. thus being a better railway countiy, in that respect, than the other line, and therefore afi'ording cheaper construction. Secondly, and perhaps a more important object to them, because they believed it would enable them more effeotually to oontrol and dominate the traffic of the North-West. The nearer they got the main line to the international boundary, the less danger there would be for them of pressure for the con- struction of a line south of their line. These were the points of view of the policy of the Canadian Pacific Railway which led to this conclusion. They built their line through a country which ia not equal to the territory of the central route. I point to the fact that the statement made by the First Minister is 'oefore the House, which shows that not a single homestead has been taken up between the 3rd and 4th meridian on the 48 mile belt, and between the 4th and 6th meridian only 23 homesteads have been taken up, thus giving a total of 23 homesteads on more than 400 miles of railway, stretching between a point close to Moose Jaw and a point close to Calgary. I point to that fact as one of great consequence and importance. I point also to the second fact, that between the 3rd and 4th meridian, the company has accepted 624,100 acres, while in that same area between the 3rd and 4th meridians it has assumed to reject 126,720 acres, or about one-fourth the area accepted. That figure is also of great consequence. I do not believe there is any serious dispute as to the proposition that the territory is in fact inferior. I observe that in the speech of Sir Richard Temple, made in Winnipeg, in September, 1884, he used these expressions on this subject : *' They were anxious to impress the consideration that the Canadian Pacific Railway was only the beginning of the vast railway system, nothing more or less than the mam artery from which must branch out many reins, the backbone of the body poUtiOi the limbs, arms, toes and fingers yet to come. " The Canadian Pacific Railway runs through a rich country no doubt, but still not the richest, the richest country was far to the north, and to that country branches must extend. Critics said that the main line ought to hare been taken farther north, but no doubt the wisest course nas been followed, because the main trunk runs nearly as straight as an arrow from ocean to ocean. " The remaining work of constructing branches was what ought be called the crying want of the North- West. " They bad heard many remarks from many farmers to the effect that branch railways were wanting towards the south from the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway so as to make connection with the rail- wayi adranoing upwards from the United States. " The great and pressing importance of these matters should receire consideration." Now, this gentleman voiced, I suppose, the general infer, mation of those whom he had mot in the extended tour which he and his confreres of the British Association took through the North- West, and ^ives them as the impression of the people of the country with reference to the relative quality of land on each route, and also as to the necessity of branch lines southward as well as northward. He also Coints to the wisdom, in his view, of building a straight line, ut we know that, in railway construction, it is not always the straigbtest that is the shortest line. The question of curves and the question of grades tend materially to deter- mine the practical shortness of a line of railway. There is also the question of the comparative character of the climatic conditions of the two passes. In the Yellow Head Pass, as is found by the reports of the engineers who visited that region for a long time, who traversed it fre- quently, and also by the reporta of explorers and travellers for many years through that country, there are no traces of avalanches or snowslides. But, both on the Rookies and on the Selkirks, and perhaps on the Gold Range, at the cross- ings of the Canadian Pacific Railway, the case is entirely different. If you refer to the papers laid on the Table, you will find that Mr. Vice President and General Manager Yan Home applies, I think in the month of September last, to be allowed to make permanent for some years the tem* porar^ line round a portion of the main proposed line in the Kicking Horse Pass, and the reason why he proposes to 10 itttttke that line permanent for some rears — a line with gra- diente of 237 feet to the mile and with very severe onrvatare — is, as he deolares, that there are several boulder elidci along the main located line, and there is one avalanche or snowslide moving from a glacier high ap in Monnt Stephen, that the engineers have been observing the movement of these boulder slides and this snow- slide for a considerable time past, but that they have not been able to decide what would be the proper route in order to avoid the dangers and difBoulties arising from them, and that several years, I think, is the phrase, but at any rate a very considerable time of observa- tion will ue necessary in order to establish the proper per- manent route across the Kicking Horse Pass ; and there- fore, says Mr. Yan Home, I ask your approval of oar open- ing the road and working it for some years to come with the temporary line we have built to facilitate construction. He proceeds to point out, rather in contrast to the glowing terms which we hear as to the great traffic that is to go over the rood from China and Japan, and to China and Japan, that the severe grades to which I have referred, the grade of 237 to the mile, the severe combined grades and carves, are of less consequence there because the traffic will be com- paratively light for some years to come, and will not compare at all with me traffic in the prairie country. So I find a complete proof, from the application of the president of the company and the assent of the Government to that applica- tion thus formally made, agreeing in the force and strength of his reasoning, and determining that for some years the temporary lino is to be used, in order that they may see what the permanent location should be; that there are difficalties in the Kicking Horse Pass which do not exist in the Yellow Head. Then I come to the question of the Selkirks, close to the Illecillewaet Creek, which descends from a point close to the crossing of the Selkirks, going nestwarae towards the Pacific Ocean, and I find that, in answer to a question put by me early in the Session, the Minister of Bailways declared that they had no reports upon the subject of snowslides in that region at all, but that the engineers had been ordered to observe. Later on, in answer to a question put by me, on information I had received from the west, he declared that the company had made an application to change the location they had already made at that point, and to make a new location, becanee the loca- tion which they had adopted was an impracticable location. Why ? In consequence of the snowslides there. And the other day I ap{>lied to know whether the new locati6n hud been laid before the Government for approval, and the hon. gentleman said it had not yet been laid before the Government for approval. fiut in his former statement he had said the proposal was to adopt a location which would lengthen the line some 3^ miles. The Government, then, has not yet got a practicable location across the Selkirk flange, the companv has not yet got a practicable location across the Selkirk fiange, because unquestionably, if the company was in a position to aabmit the profiles and plans and the requisite information for that practicable location, having long ago informed the hon. gentleman that they could not use the loca- tion which they had adopted and which he had approved, and would be obliged to resort to anew oneand havinggiven some general information upon it, thoy "ould have submitted the new location and the evidence. Jat the hon gentleman has not yet submitted any evidence upon the subject ot the snowslides. Now, this is a most material and important question. You find, at the two great crossings which are involved in the change of route, if there be not three, if the Gold Hills be not considered a third, the qtestiou of boulder slides and snowslides or avalanches assuming great and disagreeable prominence, and von find us actually to-day without information in the hands of the Governmetit or in tbe.handa.of the flooae that there is a really safe, practic- able location across these mountains. The hon. gentleman has received, or at any rate has brought before the House, no evidence as to what the condition of things has been in re- ference to the snowslides on the route of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the Selkirks ; but I have found some information which has been accessible to the public, and I read it to the House in order that we may anderstand if it is not possible to obtain some authentic official information upon a question so critical and important as this is ; and I beg the House to observe that by the coarse which has been taken,in determin- ing the location through the North- West before these important, cracial questions of the crossings of the Selkirks and the Bockios had been decided, by sufficient length of time in exploration, by sufficient length of time in observing the climatic difficulties, we were plunged into that particular route and pledged to that particular crossing. I say that waa an act of great imprudence for which the Government is responsible. Long ago difficulties had been stated by the abonginal inhabitants to exist in that part of the country. Of this very place, in 1865, Mr. Moberly, an engineer, said i " I tried to indnoethe Indian! to acoompanT me all the way aoross the Selkirk Range." In another passage : " All my effort! were nnarailing, aa they affirmed that, if we went in, we ghonld be oaa({ht in the snow and nerer get ont of the mountaini.' In another passage : " We goon found oarseWes 600 feet below the gummii The adjoining mountaioB are iteep, and tracki of aralanches are freqaent." The Calgary Herald of the 19th February last contains thhs statement : " Corporal McDonald left the second oroising of the Oolambla on FebruarV 8tb, and rode for 30 milea east np the west ilope of the Selkirk Range. Having gone thus far, he foand himself 14 or IS milea from the summit, and unable to proceed farther unless on foot, and that with dilfioalty. The reason Corporal HcDonald was unable to ride that stretch of mountain road was that f^om where he had dismounted, straight up to the summit, the pass was one mass of aTalanches, and snowslide*, and fallen glaciers. The snowslides were solid packs of ice, and were sometimes 60 feet in thickness. Hair's men, under the direction of Foreman Gamer, were bard at work cleaning the Tote road, which bad been a chief saSerer by the slides, un Feoruary 8tb, the day McDonald left the second crossing, a slide had oocarriid sii miles west of the summit, at HcKenzie's camp, and a man named Robert Miller bad been killed by it. Miller was the cook of the camp. On the same dav another slide occurred four miles on the west of the summit, at Rose MoDermott's camp. In this slide three men were buried alire, and hare not since been seen. One of these men was known to be Dulac, a Frenchman. When the slide occurred the French- man and two others were known to have been overwhelmed by it, and none of the three were snbseauently seen alive. A third slide occurred at the summit of the range where Hill's store waa. There were a number of men in the store at the time. Luckily only the skirts of the avalanche swept the store, the consequence being that only the west comer was burled and the men succeeded in escaping through the windows east of the Selkirks. It took McDonald a day uad a half to reach the summit of the Selkirks. Arrived there he got a horse from the detatchment stationed there and rode to Beaver Greek, a distanoe of 28 Miles or 30 miles. The eastern slope of the Selkirks was free trom the slides, and was a more favorite resort for the workmen on the road than the western slope. In fact, the men at ^ ork on the west slope were quitting work on account of the danger. They evidently had the same opinion a* Mr. Moberly's Indian,^' Ihat if they went in they would be caught in the snow and never get out of the mountains, in fact the road from the summit of the Selkirks west beyond the second crossing in the Qold Range, was having a hard time of it. In the Gold Range the road had been overflowed by a slide and Wright's teams were all blocked out. " Then I flud in the Moosomin Gowier, of March 12th, 1886, this statement : " Mr. Bowen found the chief topic of conversation at the Creek was the abnormal amount of snowslides obstructing work. The workmen on the road seem pauic-stricken, and many of tbem are refusing to work on account of th« danger, others are strikiag for higher wages, the demand beingtorfa.SOperday. The slides seem to occur chiefly on the west slope of the Selkirks and on the east slope of the Oold Range. Some, however, have taken place on the east slope of the Selkirks, in one of which Holt, the contractor, had |65,000 worth of supplies swept away about a fortolghl ago. Moaday it wat recovered, however, the loss [mounting I lalkirks vim rtth the sno ractor, who • now gettic oing compi irrisbed in leen a»certai mong the i ocount ofti if the passes i;ing scoope S'ow, Sir, 1 sondilion o :entlonian oports of Icct's and biniTB is. link that Bsiiits of tl fitii referc ^hic'h was tioiiB, wh fovornraon , iU the teyond the second of it. In the Qold id Wright's teams irch 12th, 1885, at the Greek was , The workmen on refuting to work on wages, the demand chiefly on the west ^old Range. Some, Jelkirkt, in one of ippliei swept away howerer, the loss mounting finally to about $10,000. Hill's store at the summit of the elkirlis was also swept away. West of the sumiiit the road is blocked 'itii the snow, the slides occurring nearly every day. Wright, the con- tactor, whose men are working on the cast slope of tbe Gold Kange, 8 now getting his supplies from Bearer Creek, the road to Kamloups iring completely blocked. So far there are six men known to have jprisoed in these slides, but there are others whose names have not leon a'certained, who also got buried in them. There was a rumor iiiiong the mpu that the line of route was being slightly changed on iccount of the dangers from avalanches. I nsteadot seeking the centre if the |)asseB the road was being led along the mountain side, the rock i.'ing scooped out to afford more shelter to the passing trains." ^ow, Sir, that is tho statomonl of tho newspapers as to tho iondilion of things. I uhould havo been glad if tho hon. entloman had givon ut^ an authentic Htatement from the '0|)orta of tho Govorumont's ai.d the company's engi- ecrs and from tho contractors, of what the atato of ingH is. I think it was his duly to have dono so. I ink that Parliament has a right to bo informod as to the hiiltsoftho operations, as to what tho results has boon ilh reference to tho climatic difficulties on tho route hic'h was choson without thot-o precautions and oxplor- 18, which should have bucn insisted on boforo tho ovornraont allowed themselves to bo committed to It tho Holicitation of the company. In tho samo con- nection I may advert to tho circumstuncos that wo now Bid in tho papers on tho Table an estimate for a further ^rgo sum of money for snowshods, not merely on tho ttorth t-horo of Lake Superior, but the largest part in the Facirio region. Now this was either considered us an osfon- ^1 for this road originally or it was not. If it was con- il^urod as an essential originally and was included in the «|li mates of last year, it is embraced in tho money that is ' tod to finish the road ; but, if it was not considered a coBsity then, it has become a necessity on account these subsequent developments, and, thoretbte, you havo ditional proof from the company itself that there have on developments of a serious character with reference to ,_ climatic difiicuhics in passing this way — how serious, H^hut tho drawbacks may be, what tho difficulties may bo, arising therefrom, it is of course impassible for me to tell. "5 have endeavored, before reading in this House what is toiious to the public through the medium of the news- pors, to obtain authentic information from hon. gentle- on opposite, and having so endeavored in vain, 1 have ought tho subject once again boforo tho House in tho po that wo may even yet obtain that information to which e are ontitlod. Then passing the climatic question, which a very serious difficulty, wo come to the question of udes and curves. As I havo Haid, it is not only a question mileage with roforcnce to a railway, it is a question of adienlB and a question of curves. In the dubate which ok place last year, when tho hon. member for Kiohmond f|tid Wolfe (Mr. Ivos) undertook the duty of sustaining, l^tcr I had spoken, the position of tho Govornmont, he, in a ^r}- elaborate 8peech,dealt with many topics.amongst others iJHlli that of grades and curves ; and ho stated, as you will d in tho report of tho Debates, that tho utmost care had en taken to give easy grades and easy curves to tho Can- adian Pacific Railway. Now, by the Yellow Head, the max- imum grade was 1 in 100, or 52 80 to tho milo. The stiff grades there of 52*80 were all concentrated within 30 miles, and the longest stifl' grade was but 3^ miles. That is the condition of the Yellow HeudPass. By the Kicking Horse Pass there aro over 52 miles of 11(5 feet or 1 17 feet ; there are over 62 miles of that grade, more than double tho maximum oltho Yellow Head Pass grade, and more than throe times the mileage of that grade. (Jjntrasting those things you have got iftone case 6 miles of a grade of 52 80, and you havo got in ^ other 52 miles of a grade of llfi or 117. This is alto- ^tlier apart from tho temporary line, which temporary Ih»o is to be tho permanent line for several years to come, i^d to carry this immense traffic which is expected to go Wfer the line from China to Europe, and back from V 8b Europe to China. On that line the grades aro 4k to the 100, or 237 to the mile. The graJes are so steep Ttiat already serious accidents have occurred. In one case a construction train ran away and a large number of men wore injured, and there aro in tho course of tho grade two of what aro called switch bucks, arrangements by which, if you find the train is overpowering you, you can run it offt'io main track and run it up a little hill so as to stop il. That is tho kind of track over which the traffic on tho Cana lian Pacific Kailway is to be carried on for some years to come — 237 feet to tho ndlo, protected by switch backs. Taking tho 119 miles west from the summit of the fiockies, there are only 11^ miles about as near as I can make out, of levels. Now with reference to curves. On the Yellow Head lino, on the line of my hon. friend from East York, there was but one curve of 8 degrees, and there were several of 7 degrees, and those curves of 7 degrees were on levels, or very low grades, and I need hardly tell the House that that is a very important consideration, that the combination of a steep grade and a sharp curve intensifies the difficulty, and that thoiefore it is customary, wherever practicable, to compensate for tho cur- vature by the grade. But, as I say, on the Yellow Head Pass, tho maximum curve was one of 8 degrees, and there were Koveral of 7 degrees. Now, what is the case in the 119 miles west of the summit of the located lino ? Why, Sir, there are no less than 103 10-dogree curves, 37 9-degreo curves, and 76 8-dogroe curves and under 9 degrees, making 216 curves of that very sovoro char- acter. And this does not include all, because there are several very sharp curves on the line beyond the 119 miles. The investigation which I have made did not enable mo to go through the whole of tho lino, and therefore I took this particular section of 119 miles, and from the imperfect information before us I gleaned such facts as I could. Now, Sir, the total number of curves on that 119 miles is 691. On one mile there is about 2,000 feet of tangent, as near as I can make out ; on another of 1,500 feet; on several more about 2,000 feet. In one place, in about 2,200 feet of line, there are.five curves, thus: 10 degree right ; 10 degree left ; 8 degree right ; 8 degree left ; and 6 degree right. They take as many and as sharp turns as this Administration does. In 12 con- Boculivo miles there are 123 curves, 18 of 9 ot 9 degrees, 19 of 8 degrees, 15 of 7 under 8, 2 of 6 and under 7, or 63 the minimum curve of the Union Pacific ; are on grades which average about 116 is tho condition of things. I say that the hon. gentle- man authorised this location ; authorised a location by way of Kicking Horse Pass, before he had before him plans and profiles, sliowing that there was a practicable road within the conditions of the contract, by the Kicking Horse Pass. They had realised that duty of thcln at an early stage. I can ca'l your attention to the Order in Oou.^.^il, and the reports of Sir Charles Tuppor, showing that ho uclined, on tho advice of the engineer, to recommend tho location of the Canadian Pacific Railway through the prairies of the North-West, beyond a particular point on those prairies, because they were pointing towards Calgary and Kicking Horse; and because ho said beyond this point, which is a common point for both routes, the route by the Yellow Head and by Kicking Horse, I will not anthorise the location until you show me a line within tho contract by the Kicking Horse. That was his determination, and he declined to authorise a location beyond the common point I have mentioned. I can show suhsoquent Orders in Council passed under the rule of the Acting MiniHtor of Railways in which, with tho former Order in Council staring him in the face, and without information that there would be a practicable line within the contract by the Kicking Horse, the Acting Minister of Railways did authorise t£e location of tho line to a point which was run^ 10 degrees, degrees and curves over and these foot. That 18 ning southerly, and by which in olToot ho pledged the Ck>Ternment to agree to the Calgary and Kicking Horse route. Mr. POPE. No. Mr. BLAKB. Lot the hon. tjentloman contrast the Ordir in Council and the reports of Mr. Sohroibor and Sir Charles Tapper with his own Order in Council and reports, and he willM unable to say " no" without conflicting V7i*h those reports. Already the route was authorised towards the Kicking Horse before he had the proof that a line within the conditions and terms on the contract was practicable by that route. They adopted that route in excess of their powers. They wore authorised to approve a location within the contract, and, in the earlier Orders in Council and reports approving the sociion of the location of the line, the grades and curves are shown to be within the standard of the Canadian Pacific contract, and upon those reports the Government approved of those locations. Bat on this occa- sion they have acted in excess of their powers, because they have approved of grades and curves wnich are in excess of the standard of the Canadian Pacific Huilway. The hon. ?;entleman declared the otbor day, with a view of escaping rom that Ptatement, that the maximum grade on the Dnion Pacific was 116 and the minimum curve 11 degrees. The hon. gentlem I, and he aaya acific. It woa tbo Canadian are different, ; and not the ) the grades. 3ific of under imum grade, irade on the over 62 miles orary line, to )n the Union H, and on the cific Railway p there is one on the tem- What is the ) of tlio Cana- le temporary of 10 degrees 008, 39 over mm curve on or of curves ? OS and under, total cur- of the whole tal curvature Lhe lino. So he Canadian andard line, '. I suppose IS in railway 'ors to qnes- , information grades and er been laid ion my hon. k of finding ific Bail way 8, and you leers divided that form, lignment of nging down ve merits of ) Halifax, he f grades and 1 line meant Table before But, Sir, the prepare, it low in its )r when 1 tables wore tables with :!h has been it the essen- cation, have has passed, completed, he Govern - hose tables to a pro- ary to the 10 proper information of the Houfo and the country. But, Sir, from the general statements I have been able to glean, I have brought before you those results, and I muinluin tlmt tho statement I have made indicates a very unfortunatu condition of things for our great trans- continental highway, and a condition particularly unfortu- nate with rofcrenco to the change in the route. The roaaon why this route was changed, wai that it was going to decroaso tbo mileage length of tho line by a certain numbor of miles — or rather, by an uncertain number ; I cannot well make it out, an it sooms to vary a good deal ; some- times 69 or 70 — Homotimes about 100, I know not what it was or what it will bo, but something in that neighborhood, I t>ay that any such shortening as that is far more than counterbalanced by the climatic difficulties to which I have referred and by the steep grades and tho sharp curves to which I have referred in the statement I have made; and I believe that my hon. friend's wisdom in the choice of his r to has boon already demonstrated by what has already taiien place, and I regret to say that I believe it will be more demonstrated hereafter as the road comes to be worked and tho traffic upon it comes to be heavier, Now, Sir, looking at the two speochos of the hon. gentlemen, looking at the glowing prospects they held out to us as to this line, looking at the magnificent future which they depicted — tho immediate futuroand thegrand prospective future of the line, and considering its strength, its power, its capacity for com- poting with other lines, considering its unique advantages, considering its infinitesimal debt compared with other lines, I ask you whether these speeches did not lead rather to the conclusion that wo should apply to the Canadian Pacific Railway to loud us some money than that the Canadian Pacific Railway should apply to us for a loan. If such be the strength and the magnitude of its resources, which have largely come from us, it does seem to me that while we are begging and borrowing, taking from the people inside and outside, from the banks in London and the banks in Canada, from tho poor in the country and the rich in the country, while we have exhausted oar oash and are signing our names for bills for which we cannot find the cash, il does seem to me that we should rather apply to this rich and powerful creation of ours for a moderate and temporary assistance from the temporiay embai rassment in which we are placed, than that the situation should bo reversed. They do seem to me most extraordinary speeches if you look at them as destined to support the con- elusion to which they were directed, that we should lend the company some more money — no, we cannot do that any more, but that wo should lend thorn our names, and put oarselves under discount at the banks, endorsed, no doubt, by the company; for after the statement of these hon, gentlom' no doubt the endorsement of the Canadian Pacific Railway would add much to the value of the Canadian Exchequer bills, and probably that is the reason that they are going to be financed more advantageously by them than if we borrowed the money ourselves and paid it over to the company, Tho company is so strong that it can do more with 4 per cent. Exchequer billp of Canada than wo could, and thus we give them a great advantage, and they get this money on better terms. That seems a reasonable explanation, otherwise I do not see why we should not raise the money and hand over the hard cash to them instead of giving them our names. Now, I have always said, whenever I have addressed the House on this subject or spoken to the public, that iio Canadian Pacific Railway had received enormous advantages. I think so still, and I think they had a great prospective future before them if prudence and not rashness, good management and not mistaken management, had guided them and the Govern- ment together. Lut I have also said, and I have signalised th<] fact for tho last two Sessions at any rate, that great prudence wa^ required in order to avoid denger and disaster, and certainly to avoid tho marring of these fine prospects. I havo never believed that the very early prospects or that road wore such as hon. gentlemen depicted, but I believed that it had a future, and I beliovod tnat that future was bound up in a concentration of effort to construct the road not with extreme speed, but with moderate speed, at as low a rate of cost as was consistent with stability of execution. I knew that a low rate of cost was not consistent with extreme speed of construction ; we all knew that. I knew also that its future was bound up in a comparatively mode- rate rate of speed, because we wanted the people to come into tho country, that there might bo something to feed tho road with business when it was constructed, and I believed that its prospects were iherefore marred to a considerable extent by tho policy which it and tho Government together had equally adoptod of late years. I should not have entered on this subject ai, any length except for the state- ment of the hon. the Secretary of State. He predicted a groat boom when tho through line should be opened next year. Ho said they wore opening the door of commercial prosperity for Canada, and ho to^ us that the cry ^ould then be echoed : " All aboard for the West." Now, I fail to 800 the ground of this prediotion of a boom. Tho company itself in its report of the other day, does not say very much about the great through traffic, water-borne on each side from China and Japan to Europe, and vice versd, on which the hon . the Secretary of State dilated so eloquently. There are three classes of traffic upon which the road has to depend. There is the transcontinental water-borne traffic. Now, as to that, the hon. gentleman admitted that there had been non3 of it heretofore. There have been a few cargoes of silk worms carried from the East to Europe, under special circurautanoos, on Pacific lines, but up to this time tho traffic of tho world, so far as it is composed of traffic between the Orient and Europe, is water-borne traffic; and thus, although it cannot be done by other lines, although he says the almost irresistible Yankee has been obliged to admit that he fails to induce this traffic across the continent, yet he declares and predicts that the Canadian Pacific Railway will obtain it. "Well, I am sure wo all heartily hope they will obtain it. But I think it will be admitted by tho House that that is a specu- lation, and I am not very sure that the learned prelection of the hon. Secretary of State has added very new or very valuable materials to the prospect of determining that spe- culation. The hon. gentleman declared that the rate of expense between land and water transport was about one to throe, that is to say, one mile of rail to about three milos of water; and he declared that these proportions would be diminishing proportions, the land-borne traffic more approxi- mating to the water. I will not enter into the calculations with which the hon. Secretary of State assumed to support that conclusion ; but I will say this, that as far as I know the most learned practical men who deal with this subject believe that it is a varying quantity, from one mile by land to between throe and eight by water, depending very largely on the size of tho vessels and the length of the voyage, If you have a trade which you can carry in very large-sized vessels, which are known to be the most econo- mical, and if you have a very long voyage, the cost of transport diminishes until the cost for eight miles by water is about equal to that of one mile by rail. An experiment on this question, interesting in its character, I perceive, is being tried or is about to be tried, with reference to one of the most southerly Pacific lines, under tho auspices of Mr. C. P. Huntingdon, who, taking tho traffic by land across the most narrow part of the continent to a southern port, intends to compete with the all-rail route to New York by putting the freight on a steamer at that port and bringing it to New York; and by calculations similar to those we have been 20 usitijf, ho oxnciU to compoto with tho all-rail routes. So much with roforonoo to tho rolativo oo«t of ruil- borno iiiul wator-borno truffle. Thoro Ih another oloment, howevor. Tho coat of rail borne through traffic itHolf varioH very lur^oly, being dependent not merely on climutio quoHtionH but alHO on the quantity of tho local traffic. If you have a very Inrgo local truffle, which necowitutea and makea protitttblo u very lorgo oijuipmont, a very largo staff all along your linu, and numbora of thoao thinga whioh fvre adjuncta to your total truffle, you can carry a through traffic and mnko money on it at very much lower ratea than if you have not that largo local truffle. A largo local traffic ia oaaon- tial to low rat OH for through traffic. So that thoro are vary- ing fuotora in both qiioationa of groat iraportanoo. Tho hon. Secretary of State declared that it waa material to look at tho cupitul account of other railways oa oontraated with that of tho Canadian Pacitio Railway, on tho theory apparently that tho capital account controllod tho ratos. Sir, tho capital account does not control the ratoa at all. Wherever thoro ia competition, it is competition that controls tho rates, and tho road that can and doea cariT cheapest governs tho ratea for tho roi-t. It Ih u quoation wnethor tho rest will take the traffic at tho rate of that road or not have it at all. Aa a rulo they do ta^o it at that rate even though they may obtain no compcnaation or an inadequate compensation for it. They charge no more upon tho traffic bocauao of onor- moua capital accounta. I admit that thoro is an aapoot of this case in which tho capital account ia of vital importance. I admit that tho capital account is a matter of great urgency with reforonco to tho non-competitive truffle — that traffic which, either by law, as is the caae in tho Canadian Pacific, or in practice, which ia more or losa tho case with reference to aorao traffic of all railroads, is monopoly traffic. By law a large amount of the traffic of tho Canadian Pacific ia non- competitive, bccauae tho people of tho North- West are not allowed to got competition by connectiona with tho south. Tho Canadian Pacinc can fix its own rates, and therefore with rofeionco to that traffic, it will have regard no doubt to tho amount of its capital account, ao as to be enabled, if possible, to pay fixed charges and dividends thereon. Even it thoro wore power to itiako through connections, this would largely remain a monopoly traffic. It is more or leas the case with every railway, that thoro is a kind of strictly local traffic in which there is no competition, on which tho company fixes higher rates bocauao it ia maater of the aituation. In the case of any company which is master of the situation either by adventitious circumatancea or by the law of tho land, its capital account will tend to regulate its rates ; but if the com- pany is not master of the aituation, its ratos will bo regulated by those who are masters of tho situation, and they are maa- tora of the situation who can carry tho traffic the choapoat. With reference to tho trade between China and Japan and America, and between Europe and America on tho one band, and with reference to tho through transcontinental all land-borne traffic on tho other, there are of course other conaiderations. In our country, oven as to some of this traffic our great interior seaboard offers for a great distance means of effective competition. But putting that to one aide, though it is a valuable regulator of ratoa — for without it tho rates would aometimea bo very different from what thoy are now— and dealing with the land competition alone, there is a very severe competition, whether you refer to the Atlantic or the Pacific with reference to thia great trans- continental traffic. Tho facilities have been greatly increaaed both to the cast and the west until at present they are fully, perhaps more than, adequate to tho present demands of trade, though we hope, of course, that the demands of trade in a progressive country, such aa tho North American continent, will at no distant day overtake and tax to the utmost the facilities provided for this traffic, The amount of traffic on the trunk linos, havini? 13 termini on tho Atlantic, including Boston and Now York, and .1.1 woatorn termini, for the last low years, exclusive of boof, hua boon aa follows — and theso figures are very noticeable : KAIT liaUND. For 1880 ». »■ $7, ROO, 000 " 1881 8,260,000 " 18H1 .. .. ... 6,600,000 " 1883 6,400,000 " 1884 6,300,000 That is a little more than two-thirda in 1884 of what it waa in 1880. Tho dccreaio being principally in grain and pro- viaiona, aa thia traffic vurioa largely according to the crojm and to tho demand abroad. WrHT BOUND. For 1880 $1,020,000 " 1881 ■, 160, 000 " 1883 » 8,400,000 " 1883 3,130,000 " 1884 l.MO.OOO So that in 1884 it be(!amo about what it waa in 1880. So, if you look to th'it portion of the traffic ncroaa tho continent which ia carried by tho roada having their termini on tho Atlantic, you find facilitioa proved to oxiat by the traffio carried in tho year 1881 and H8'3, far in oxco^a of tho facilitiea which were required aa proved by the traffic carried in tho yoara m3-8 1; and you find in truth that railway conatruction haa got quite abreaat of, if not lor tho moment somewhat in exceas of, tho demands of the producer and tho consumer. If you tako tho Pacific roada — I will not trouble tho House with the figures — you will find|tlioy ahow a groat increase in the last two years in tho number of roads. It may bo aaid, although aomo of the roads are common links for the transport of freight, that there are now somewhere about 6 Pacific roads, tho result being a very considerable increase of traffic on those roada. It waa inevitable from the increaao of those roada that a large local traffic should be developed, but although thoro has been a very considerable increase of local, and even of through traffic, there haa yet boon an increaao of tho power of transport in excess of the increase in traffic. The consequence is that thoro ia a very aovero competition now for tho transcontinental tiaffic, both east and west. The old rates of freight can no longer bo obtained for tho same classea of goods, and I p jintoJ tho other day to an instance in which goods wator-borno from Europe are being carried from Atlantic porta to Victoria, B.C., at 82.10 per 100 Iba., oven of the highest class, which tella you what transcontinental traffic moans at thia time. Another groat difficulty wo Canadiana are involved in ia the need of ocean ports with a very largo number of seeking ships. For the purpose of that continental traffic, which is to bo in part wator-borno, you must always conai- dor aa one lino your rail and your water communication. You must consider tho question of transshipment and cf freight ratos on tho ocean as well as tho charges on land ; and those of us who pay attention, as wo must, to the diffi- culties which are besetting the shippers of tho St. Lawrence at this moment, will all i-ecogniso, on looking at tho figures tho importance of these considerations. If they ascer- tain tho coat that ia involved in getting tho atuff from a common point in tho west to the port ol Montreal and to the port of New Y'^ork, and if thoy ascertain the coat from tho port of Montreal to Europe and from New York to Europe, thoy will find how very important are the conaiderations of port charges, shipping charges, cost of tranaahipment, to freight. Now, tho freight depends very largely upon the ocean port being an enaporium of commerce. Tako tho case of tho port of Now York, to which immenao numbers of seeking ships conatantly go, which is an ocean tramp's resort. Those ships go there bocaoao that port happens to have accu- mulated a very large amount of the traffic of the western t- 21 So, if lulling notion r tho likHt low *H ttlld ilulMO S7,Bno,ooo 8,UfiO.(l<)0 6,6()ll,0<)(» 5,400,000 6,300,000 of wliat it wiiH Ki'iiin and pro- •^ to tho crojw 11,920,000 •,1BO,000 2,400,000 3,120,000 l,9:i0,000 n 1880. tho continent ormini on tho by tho trafflo oxco^s of tho by tho trafllc n truth that if, if not lor tho demands ko tho Puoitio I ti^'urod— you . two years in h Homo of the rt of freight, fio roads, tho •atfic on thoHo 180 of thoHO voloped, but iblo inuroase ore has yet xcess of tho ore iH a very .1 traffic both no longer bo pnntoJ tho -borne from to Victoria, ighe^t ciasH, moans at are involved number of ontal traflSc, wiiys consi- munication. lent and of as on land ; to the ditfi- Lavvrenco ng at the f they asuor- tuff from u \\ and to the 81 from the to Europe, leraUons of lipraent, to p upon the ko tho case lumbers of np's resort, have accu- do western it world, and thoroforo you tiad it is a low rate ocoan port, through the free application of tho prinoinio of oompotition. ThoHo ui conNideraticnM we have to grapple with, and wo have alM to grapple with our dependence for a cheap through rate upon the oxiHtence of a largo local tratBc to which 1 have alluded. All thexo things ooint to that to which the hon. tho Secretary of Stale |K)inled, and in that part of his obHorvations I entirely coincide, that is the great importance to this lino of a largo local trade. Tho Pacific roads which wore for a long time inclined rather to ignore that, rocogniitoit now. All rouds recogtiino it moro fully than they did before ; it behooves as to recognise it too. It is a consideration upon which, I think, much will turn. Now take the thousand miles of this road woHt of Callondor and the thousand miles east of Port Alixxly, in round figures, and I ask this House what the present development is and what the immediate future is for the local tralBo on that 2,000 miles of the lino. I do not need to put tho questioii, certainly do not need to give the anhwer. There are capabilities in both ends of tho lino ; there U a futuio for both ends of the line, but built as this road has been, rushed through as it has boon, in tho insane habte which has characierisod tho policy of the Government, what to-day are the prospects of a local trafflo for tho 1,000 miles from Callander and tho 1,00J miles from Port Moody oast, say 2,0U0 out of the 2,660 ? On this 2,000 miles, there are a few thousand souls of white population. From Callander to Port Moody, 2,500 or 2,600 miles, there is a population of perhaps 150,000, perhaps 200,000 white men. Therefore, when you look to those figures of a couple of hundred thousand white men, you find in a moment tho vast im- portance of settlement to the future of the country and the future of the road. You cannot have a trade without having peopid to trade with ; you cannot have trafflo unless there be persons to traflSo with ; you cannot sjnd goods unless there bo those who will receive tho g )ods ; you cannot sell unless there be people to buy. What yju have at present is about a couple of hundred thousand seals for your local traflBc, Now, tne hon. gentleman com- fa'od tho immediate prospects of the Canadian Pacific i lilway with those of the Northern Pacific. Tho Northern Pacific has, over a large section of its road, owing to tho adventitious circumstances to which I have referred — and which give to all railway companies, more or less, tho command of tho situation, and a practical monopoly, to a certain extent, within a certain range— the power of exacting very high and unreasonable rales for a very consiierable part of its trafflo; and to that ciroumstance are duo the large profits, compared with tho amount of tonnage moved, which you find tho Northern Pacific realises. But the Northern Pacific has about 2,000,000 of people tributary more or less to its road, while, from Callandor to Port Moody, tho Canadian Pacific Bailway has about 200,000 people tributary to its road. That is the difforenco, and wo want to adjust that difference by an increase of population which will be tributary to the road, befoi'o we can expect results such as those to which the hon. gentleman h>ts pointed. Thus the Canadian Pacific has a traflSc, so far as its local population is con- corned, of somewhere about 80 souls to the mile, while Minnesota has a railway population of about 300 to the mile, Dakota about 360, Montana 350, and Illinois 370 to the mile. Unless you lay down the proposition that you are going to take as much toll from 200,000 people as tho Northern Pacific can take from 2,000,000, you cannot fairly compare at this time the traffic prospects of the Canadian Pacific fiailrjad, as regards local traffic, with those of the Northern Pacific. Tho problem is, what is the price you can exact for the traffic you have to take ? How far have the prospects for local traffic changed since 1883? Have they greatly improved since then? I deny it, and I will proceed to prove it oonolusivelv and incontio- vertibly when I come to deal with the qaestiou of the lacd. If that bo HO, I refer once again to tho language of Sir Charloa Tuppor, delivered only two years ago, in which lie said : " I do not lieaittttc to any tlitt tlio tarlir wbl 'h Is nnw on tli« THblo of the Home cADOot pay the Oanaliitn I'Mcitli) Rftll wit/, uad will not pay them for a conslderuble oniubtr ul yean." There was tho utterance of tho GovornnDnt two years ago. Now why ? " It would be Impoaiihie, until a Urft« number of iieople go lato th»t oouairjr, to conatruot a tariff wbicb would pa/ tliam. A very sensible observntion, one in which I entirely concur, but which tho hon. gontlomen opposite seem almost to repudiate — " Becauae the climatic diflflcultiea of the conntry are iuoh that I haro no heaitatloa in aaying that the ouat u( hauliug per ton per mile would be four or lire limea M great in the Nurt-Weat, in the preaunl aparaely aettled condition ut the country arid the aiuall amount of tratfio, as It would be on the Qrand Trunk railway with the ooormoui ami>unt of trafflo which I am glad to aay it U currying, and the milder climate in which It operate!." I do not think the climate of the North-Wost has chongoJ much since Sir Charles Tapper made that speech two years ago. I do not think tho settlement of tho country bus improved enormously since that time. 1 do not think its Erospects of immediate settlement havo very much righlened within tho last fow mouths. Therefore 'hat speech as to climatic diffljulties, as to tho taritl" of the .uil- way company, however high, being not high enough to make the road pity, for how long ? for a considurable number of years; until what? until that s|)arsoly settled condition of thecountry waschangod by aliirge population being brought in ; that argument, Ihiit until then, you could not construct a tariff which would pay, why? because, if you constructed a tariff which would pay on tho assumption that tho goods would bo carried, you would put it so high that you would prevent the goods being carried ; you would kill tho goose that laid the golden egg ; and you would interfere with the settlement of tho country. That speech and argument are true today. One must consider the prospects of settlement. Tho prospects of settlement, so far from the seaboard, where tho farmer's produce has to pay so large a toll in any case in order to got to tho matkot. depend upon low rates, and thoroforo you must havo low railway rates if tho country is to pronpor. Therefore, Sir Charles Tuppor was perfectly correct when he said wo cannot conslruot a tariff which would enable the Canadian Pacific Railway to pay for some years to come, that we must have a largo local traffic, the essential for which is a large population. I hope the ros-peotiiblo authority to which I have referred will cause mo to bo saved from charges of want of patriotism because I have told a few plain truths. I hope that I shall escape under tho mantle of Sir Charles Tuppor, who was speaking as tho exponent of tho views of the Government, who was speaking in his Ministerial posi- tion and upon his responsibility as a Minister, with his E resent colleagues, excepting tho Secretary of State, sitting eside him ; I hope his statements will not, now that ho is in England, bo altogothor repudiated by hon. gentlemen opposite. They cheered them then, they affirmed thom then, they contirmod them then, thoy assented to thom then. Do they repudiate them now, and, if they do not, how do thoy accord with tho statements given yesterday by the hon. gentleman the Secretary of State ? Kual progress required, then slower apparent progress than hon. gentle- men made. It required more branch lines in order to induce more people. It required a policy which would satisfy tho people that were in the country. But, instead of attondirig to the settlors who wore in, instead of recognising the groat cardinal fact that the best advertisement you could give to tho world for the North- West was so to handle the men who were in the country that they would send back word to the places from which thoy had come that this was the land of promiHO, that thiH won tho land of milk and honoy, and adviho thoir old neiffhborit to uomo oat; instoad of roitogniHinf; that on thonuoMtionoi'Hurvoyii, inHleadof rooog- niitin)( that on tho qiioHtton of land ratCH, iofltood of rooog- nittingthaton tho qiiuHtion of railway communloation, inHtoad of rocogn' Jng that on tho qiiOHtion ofononing landii for Hottlo- mont, inHtood of roitognirtin^f that on tho question of taritTrt, inHtoad of rocognixin^ that on twunty other adminiHtrativo and iogJHlativo iK)intM, the contontmont and facilitioH for tho settlor wore tho |)riino uonHidorationH. lion, gontlomon opiK)- Hito wore ho maddonod by tluH notion of oxpanHion that botoll them in tho yoarn 1881, 1882 and 1S83, that they wont to worl< to Hurvoy nixty or Hovonty millions of aoroH of land, and had not a Hurvoyor ready to survey tho old sottlomentH of the country, whore tho uottlors wore pining for Hurvoyn, Tho pioneers of tho country wore loft without survey beouuHo tli<< Hurvoyors wore Furvoying township after township where tiioro is not a mun to day, and those who were there bouame discontented, and the worst results have come from that policy. And so you find in regard to the land oompanicH, tho bubble and expansion policy as to land companies; you tindtho Canadian Pucidc Railway Company and the (Jovornmont together going into this policy, you find tho Canadian Facitic Ilailway (Company sustaining and hu|> porting the North- West Lund Company, which has done us more damage on tho KngliHh market than any other company of late date, whoso stock is now standing on the Knglish market at 38, whoNo stock was largely bought by people in England on repiosoDtationH which have been very far n-om being realised ; you find inlluontiul men, political men, mon Hupporting and sitting behind hon. gentlemen oppositu, crualing culonisation companies, creating land companies, gutting timber limits, golting ranches, getting coal lands, creating local luilwuy companies in order to got large land grants, you find everything tending in tho direc- tion of expansion in the North- West, of undue and unhealthy speculation, of a boom, and you find a feeling pervading the eastern parts of the country, so far as hon. gontle- roen on the othor side of tho House are concerned, that the North- West was a sort of reserve for the hon. gentleman's parasites and hacks, a great domain that they could cat up and utiline to promote their private fortunes. Those vast promises of mutoiiul gains and immediate gains which hon, gentlemen have made have resulted in scattered settlements, in enormous expenditure, in(;reat engagements, in widespread dissatisfaction, in an enormously exaggerated expense of construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway, in necessarily increased rates of freight for that railway, in tho embarrassment of the ruilwoy company, in the distress of Canada i. largo, and in the ruin of a great many of her citiz • .s who were seduced to enter into those transactions by tho course that hon. gentlemen pro- posed. With the grout aids that we gave to tho Canadian Pacific Railway, with the enormous advantages which we gave it, had prudence marked tbe course of hon. gentlemen opposite and the course of the company its capital account ought to have boon insignificant to-duy, it ought to have been able to transact business at the lowest rates by far of any company at all similarly circumstanced geographically and climatically, and it ought to have transacted it more pro- fitably, because, its capital account being so small, a very small margin of profit for handling would have realised a very large dividend. But, at present, you have an enormous- ly inflated capital account, you have a road built so fast that even the centre is not developed so as to be able to sustain itself, 80 fast that tho ends must depend wholly on tho weak centre — for it is weak to-day — for their sustenance, and thus the great prospeotfl which, had prudence reigned in the management of this business, would have been assured to the company, have been marred, those bright skies have been obscured, and we are face to face with a condition of things very different indeed from what we might once have hoped. I showed awhile ago that the oomnany did not now, under those resolutions which are bel^)re yon, promiae to accomplish those other objoots which thov had declared they would aocomplish if the pro[)OHaIs or Mr. Stephen, which are on tho Table, hud been accepted by tho Government. What ui o those other objects ? The hon. the Secretary of Slate culled out: " All aboard for tho west." I doubt extremely that ho is a very good con- ductor. From what point does the hon. gentleman call out: "All aboard for tho west?" Is it fVom Quo- brc that ho (^ulls out : " All aboard for tho west ? " This good conductor sold the North Shore Railway to a pri- vate company and his sale has blocked the eti'ective ory of " all aboard for the west " over since. It blocks it to-day, and at what cost to this country we are to remove the obstacle in tho way of tho railway train, on which tho hon, gentleman, duly decorated is to cull out " all aboard for tho west," we do not yet know. It is truo we have some indi- cations on the Table, we hud indications last Session. They were indications only, though they wore said to be flnalitiei'. Wo have more indications to-day, and perhaps to morrow wo shall have still further indications. Tho non. gentleman, the Acting Minister of Railways, culled out in etfect— though he did not venture tho oratorical fii;{hts in which tho Secre- tary of State indulged— still in substance ho did call out : " All aboard for the oust." He is most anxious that tho Can- adian Paciflo Railway should reach (Quebec. Uo, too, duly decorated, would go a considerable distance to get to Quebec I daresay ho proposes to take tho first train and call out to the passengers " All aboard for tho oast." To what east he did not say. He says : " I am most anxious, I do assnro you " — and he looked around in a certain quartet which we used to call tho nor'-wost corner — " I am most anxio ,, I do assure you, to give the Canadian Pacific Railway Company faoilities for getting to Quebec, All in my power I will do;" and ho spoke with a tono of such frantic oarnestnoHS that I almost believed him for half a moment, until he n^ ont on to say, after expressing his strong feelings on that subject, " and I think it ought to go to Now England." And there the New Englander broke out ; there the shrewd, calculating New Englander broko out. By what lino? I suppose by the straight and narrow way. But 1 cannot cull it straight, for I am afraid it is very crooked. It is a crooked way, like a great many of the ways of the hon. gentlemen oppo- site. They are to go by the crooked International lino, and all the hon. gentleman promises is that the road shall reach both points. There shall be a pair of rails to the Atlantic coast in tho Now England States, and a pair of rails to Quebec, But he knows very well that it is not a pair of rails to Quebec that tho people of Quebec want. It is the traffic of the Canadian Pacino Eailway. And he says to them : " Gentlemen of Quebec, I will lake care that you get a pair of rails to Quebec; but, gontlomon of the International Railway Company, I will take caro that the traffic of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company shall go over tho Megantio lino." That was not all. The hon. gentlemau felt that tho proposals on tho Table had supplied him with sufficient argument to dispense with some oratory, except as to Quebec. But there wore some other ocean termini which he seems to haveforgolten, which were not mentioned in his pro- posals. Do we not remember how tho names of the old termini used to be rolled out by the Minister of Railways ? Do wo not remember now he used to call out : St. John, St. Andrews, Halifax, Louisburg, Sydney, Shippegan ?— and I know not how many more. But now I h«ar nothing about Sidney from tho Minister. But he says, turning towards my hon. friend from Inverness (Mr. Cameron) — he says : " I assure the hon. gentleman that it is the dearest thing to my heart to secure at no distant date a connection with — which ia it ? " — he was obliged to be prompted as to the name, and he got the name " Louisburg "--" with Louisborg." mo 9t " Why," nays ho " the oounty of "— and iwaia nomobody uromptoU him with tho n»mo "Gape Bro ton " — " I know," myn ho, that tho county of Capo Breton han no railwuyH and it ought to have railwayo." ThuH we found tho dooii intoroNt and the intolligont informa- tion that tho hon. gontloman haH on thin Huhjuot. It romindx mo of tho woll icnown Htory of tho I)'jl>o security -f you place $15,000,000 on equal terms with f':r $20,000,000. We do not go in even on equal te-n j. While I do not admit the theory of hon. gentlfoien opposite that wo would bo bound as first mortgager's to paj off the stockholders if there was default, still it foiiow.^ from that proposition, and it follows oven without thut proposition, that if there bj default in this new arrangement, Canada will have to pay those $15,000,000. The Dominion cannot take over the road without doing so. It is interested as a partner in the concern. If default is made, is the Dominion going to work the concern with the other bondholders of the company, thoy having $15,000,000 in the partnership and the Dominion $20,000,000? No. if there is default, tho Government are going to pay tho $15,000,000 to the bondholders and take tho road. That is the practical re.-ult. We are making ourselves in effect second mortgagees, because wo are bound to pay off tho $16,000,000 if there is default in order to get the road. That is an unsatisfactory state of things. There can be no doubt that instead of being partners, we are practically, I say, second moitgagees, considering our relation to this enterprise in the present and in tho future. It is a bad arrangement anyway. It is a bad thing to have a partner- ship between the Government and the public ; it is an un- fortunate arrangement which is sure to load to complication. As to the price of tho securities, the public may not take them up at par. They would not take them at par, if the interest were at 4 per cent, for six years, as wo have done. We have taken our bonds for $20,000,000 at par. It is true we have taken them as securities, but we have substantially taken them at par, irre8pecti%'e of the price that the public is offering for them. Tho Montreal Gazette and other organs of hon. gentlemen opposite, when tho proposal was first sug- gested, stated this was an objection ; that if the Govern- mem ux)k those securities, they should take them at the same price they brought in the market. Now, it is said we should take them at par, and no doubt we shall have hon. gentlemen saying that it is all right. The time for payment is indefinitely extended. For what time are the bonds to run ? I do not know. Tho resolution does not indicate it. The company may issue mortgage bonds for 40 or 50 years. If for 50 years, our loan becomes a long loan. We see what we are doing, and "although Sir Charles Tupper told Ds last year that there was not the slightest shadow of a shade of doubt but that we would get our principal and 5 per cent, interest by 1891, we find now that we are throwing off an extra 1 per cent, interest, reducing it to 4 per cent, interest up to 1891, and giving the company a practical option of postponing tho debt for the whole expected cur- rency of the bonds, which may bo 50 years. Then for the $9,810,000 we take the land as security, and in effoct if not in form, release the railway, because wo take a third charge on the railway, after paying off $35,000,000 and all the fixed charges, which include the interest and rentals upon the leased and acquired lines. And more than that, this is a fourth charge, because there are several millions of land grant bonds outstanding, not cancelled, and $3,000,000 in the hands of the Government as security for the operation of tho line— outstanding in this sense that they aio our socu- lity. Is it intended to release them impliedly, and to say that there shall be no security for the working of the lino ? Is that term of the contract to be departed from ? It is not said so hero, and it surely is not intended to do so without saying it. 'Then there are $5,000,000 of bonds in the hands of the Government for security, and those bonds and the portion in the hands of the public are charges, of curse, over our charge for the $10,000,000. So you have first of all tho expenses of administering the land.s ; then you have the cost of the interest upon the loan, you have outstanding land grant bonds — tho.se iu the hands of the public ; then yon have the security for tho operation of tho line of $5,000,000 of land grant bonds, and lastly you have our own $9,810,000, or say, in round numbers, $10,000,000. Those are the charges, and this is tho order of the charges upon the land of the company. Now, the hon. gentleman referred to my valuation of tho North-West lands, as he called it, in 1880-81. I pointed out what tho Government valuation had been in the preceding year. I was not, there- fore, measuring their corn in my bushel, but in their own, and I think that is a fair way. Thoy had valued tho lands at such and such prices, and tho following Session, within a few months, with no variation of circumstances except one of improvement having occurred, they brought up a pro- posal to hand over the picked lands -nothing whi h was not cultivable — lands fairly fit for settlement — that was tho character of the lands ; they were proposing to hand them Pacific Railway, and I said : Now forward this as a bargain. You told us the lands were worth on tho average so much money last year. Are tho circumstances worse now? No; they told us they were better. Then the lands must be worth as much ? Yes, that could not bo denied. Well, if you are givin" .o much lands to this rail- way, and if, according to your oonception, they are worth so much money, then of coarse you are giving them tho equivalent of so much money. That was my argument. But I have never said that the price of tho North- West lands was a fixed figure. On the contrary, I have pointed out that under different circumstances, in varying years, under varying influences, the price of the lands in the Noith- West, as in other new countries, would rise and fall, and that we have to deal with the facts as they wore presented to us at the time at which we were called upon to deal. I cannot say what the North- West lands will bring in the near or the distant future, but I can refer to some tests of the value of those do. I over to the Canadian you are bringing us the ii those lands at Iho prosont timo, and that I will vonturo to do. I say that thoir valuo in the future is spoculativo; on the average, no doubt, in the long run, the value will improve, the country will improve, but what yon should deem them worth to-duy, or in the near future, is a question which passes ray poor hoiid to an8wor,nlthough hon. ,'jentlomen answer it in various ways according to tlio cxi- gonciosof the situation. I pointed out lastSoasion that they could not bo relied on as present sources of revenue, to meet the interest on the loan, and now after the collapse which occurred during and since last Session, and after the outbreak of this Session, whiit are wo to say is their value? Now, I will give j'ou sorno tests. Take the North-West Land Company which obtained a share of the choicest lands of the Canadian Pacific llailway, in part alonpf its line of railway, and in part the host lands of Southern Manitoba, which besides obtained a half interest in all the town sites of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way west of a certain point— 1 think it was Brandon — which obtained these advantages, and which bought its lands at a price of $2.23 net per acre with the sices thrown in. The stock is $7,500,000 paid. That stock is worth in the market 38 per cent, or $2,850,000. Now how much will you allow for the town sites ? Will you allow $650,000 for them ? If you do, there will remain $•2,200,000 for agricultural lands, and as there are 2,200,000 acres of those land the price will be $1 an acre. If you allow only $100,000 for the town sites you increase the price of the lands to $1.10 cents per acre as the estimate placed by the publio,of the agricultural lands. There is a corcpauy whoso whole property consists of 2,200,000 acres of the best agricul- tural lands in the North- West, and half the town sites on a large section of the Canadian Pacific Railway. The stock is valued by the public at $2,850,000, and dividing that between town sites and agricultural lands, and deduct- ing the valuo of the town sites, the residue being agricultural lands — that gives you the public's value of those choice lands so situated. Well, then take the colonisation companies. Wo do not know of course what the Government measure is ; they have pro- mised to bring one down and they admit that they are about to bring a proposal to relievo the colonisation companies whose bargains made with them by the trovornment are too hard and cannot bo performed. Take again the calculation of the Government itself. On the 4th of May 1883, thoy brought down calculations that thoy would realise $53,000,- 000 in cash for the lands in the North- West by the year 1891. How many millions will they dare say they will realise now ? Will any man amongst them s.ay they will realise $58,000,000 ? Will any man say that they will rea- lise one half of $58,000,000 ? If thoy will not, will thoy say that circumstances have not changed, or that their culculu- tions have been vorlticd? Take their action in June, lt83, when they passed an Order in Council declaring that in future they would give no lands to railway companies in tho No:'th- AVest at a price which would not tho Government loss then $l.5'J per aero. Thoy were afraid that the former price gave too largo a margin of profit to the railway companion, and so all railway companies which h.id not been for- tunate enough to secuio land at $1 por acre, wore to pay at least $1.60. In tho year 1884, the M.inisterof L'tvilways stated that there wore some 23,000,000 of acres applied for by colonisation companies, that $10,000,000 were already provided for, and that the rest wjuld bo provided for very boon, because they would go on selling an increased acreage and enlarging the price. Now, we had this condition of things, that while in Juno, 1883, tbe Government declared that future sales to railways should be at a price which would net the Government $1.50 per acre, the companies making their profit beyond, in September, 1884, they decided upon the policy of giving lands free to the railways, and why ? Beoause they found that tbe railways cjould not sell the lands at one dollar even and make money on them, and in older to make that money which they intended the railways should make, it was necessary to give them free. Does not that show a change of tituation as to the lands of the North-West? Surely there is but one answer to that. When you find the Government declaring in Juno, 1883, that it would bo suf- ficiently i-roQt.;ib!o to the railway companies to get lands at $1.50, and in Soptembcr, 1884, saying, wo must give them free to tho railway companioi in order that thoy may make some profit on them, who will dony that there is a change — I do not know how long it will last — with reference to tho North-Wcst lauds? And what more? Why, Mr. Van Homo, in Soptombor, 1834, declared that he was not nan- guino, with a gift of practically 9,(!00 acres a mile for 100 miles of tho Manitoba South-Weslcrn Railway, passing through tho host part of Southern Manitoba and long settled, that he would bo able to build tluat lino, although lie started out with a basis of credit of 50 miles of completed line, for which tho compiny charges something like $25,000 a mile. That is the statement of a gentleman who in his other capacity as Vice-President of the Canadian Pacific Railway is certainly deeply interested in not depre- ciating the value of the lands of the North-West. Does not that show a change ? Take the dealings of the Boll Farm Company with the Government, by which their agreement is modified very materially. Take the fact that there ai'o only 23 horaostoaders on a 400 mile stretch of tho Canadian Pacific Railway through the prairies. Taking all these facts, I ask you, whether there is any immediate prospect of realis- ing consiilorahlo sums from tho sale of lands in the North- West. Now, these gentlemen do not like this, because they told us when thoy asked us to assent to the Canadian Pacific Railway contract in 18S1, and again when they askod us to assent to the loan of 1884, that they were going shortly to pay otf the railway obligations which the people of Canada were incurring out of the lands of the North-West j they told us thoy Would ail bo rccou|)od out of tho lands ; and having told us that they do not like to hear these statements which convict them out of their own mouths of gross miscalculations. How are we to got at the facts ? I have more than once pointed out how inadequate are the accounts which tho Canodian Pacific Railway Company render to the public — how impossible it is to tind out anything with regard to their traffic returns from the diil'erent sections, so that we may judge of the prudence and the wisdom of those acquisitions and leases by the test of their result in profit. We know now something we did not know a little while ago. Wo find among the expenditures made a sum of over $1,200,000 on these loaded lines. We were told they wero going to help the company on ; but at a timo when tho company are straining every nerve in order to carry out their contract, we find thorn obliged to pay this largo sun of money, wo d) not know for what — whether for working expenses, for rolling stock, or for something else — in counoclion with the leased lines. Are wo to have no account or audit such as in the United States is provided fjrthesubsidised lines of that country? By Act of Congress it is provided that there shall bo a railway auditor, who shall have access to all tho books and accounts of railway companies which are subsidised by the public. Are wo to'liave nothing of the kind ? Is that to bo refused this year, as it was refuiod last year? Arc wo to have no opening of Mani'.oba to the south, closed as it has boon by virtue of tho exercise of the power of liisallow- ance, contrary to tho spirit of the coustitu lOn and to tho declaration made by the First Minister and re-echoed by tho hon. member for Caidwoll (Mr. White) when the contract itsolf was made? Are wo, I say, to have no opening of Manitoba to local lines ? Is the power of disRllowance to bo continuoualy exercised ? Last Session, when we were asked to vote tbe loan, tbe 26 Minister of Railways told ua that they would desist from exercising the power of disallowauco when the main lino was opened over the North Shore, and that it was expected to be opened this year. It is oijon now in u sense ; trains have passed over it with traffic. There are railway companies waiting to know whether the power of disallowance is to be exercised oi lot ; thoy are afraid to go on with their ■work, because they romemboi- that one company spent a considerable sum of money iii j^rading their lino, and that it was swept out of existence by d isallowance ; and they want to know whether the pledge of tho First Minister and ot the Min- ister of Railways is to bo fulfilled, and whether that which I regard as an unconstitutional exercise of tho power of disal- lowance is to prevent any longer that Province from building railways as freely as other Provinces in this Dominion. Is it to be all give and no get ? Is it to be nothing on one side and all on the other ? If wo had to take over this line after all these arrangements are made, what would wo have paid andhaveto pay? The 825,000,000 of subsidy ; $11,000,000 which have been received by the company from lands, land grant bonds, and so forth ; 820,OUO,000 on our railway mort- gage i $10,000,000 on our land mortgage ; 830,000,000 on our works; $3,600,000 on ou:- surveys; $15,000,000 for tho public bondholders, making a total of $114,500,000; and there would be besides $14,000,000, which is the sum of tho proposals now on the Table and those which have been voted by Parliament before for eastern and western ai-rangemonts in connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway, out not included in the original contracted lino. That makes a total of $128,500,000 in cash, besides the defaulted interest, which we would not of course got, — $128,500,000 which, under the present proposals, this conntry would have to pay before it could got control of this railway. Now, the Acting Minister ot Railways r^.ide a statement tho other day, of the mosi oxtraordinary character. He summed up the expenditure in case of default at $104,500,000. In that he included the lands sold, calculating them at $2 an aero, a price below what they brought to the company, and he included the $5,000,000 for the new loan ; but he omitted the interest account, aud the $15,000,000 of bonds, alto- gether, and in that way made up the $104,500,000. That is bad enough ; but he then went to work to deduct, and ho said, there are 21,500,000 or more acres of land, worth $2 an acre, which wo will get back, and they are worth $43,350,000. Deducting these the road will cost us $61,150,000 only. The land which we gave over for the construction of the road is not charged in tho expense when he sums up its cost to us, but he credits it when wo get the road back. He puts It down on one side, and not on the other ; and that is the principle on which the hon. gentleman deals with the railway com- pany. I wonder if that is tho way he dealt with the affairs of the lEtornational lino — whether he handled its con- tractors in that manner— whether he agreed that what was paid should not bo accounted in tho payment, but should be credited when tho road was got back. Let us simplify this transaction. Instead of mixing together acres and dollars, let us talk only of a'jres or only of dollars. Is it fair or reasonable to put in the account of expenditure $104,500,000 and say nothing nbout the twenty one miiiiousof acres,and when yougo tothe account of what you will get back, to say: I will get back 21,000,000 acres ? If you say you will got it back, you must acknowledge that you gave it away in the first instance. Take it in dollars, take tho 21,000,000 acres as represented by $43,000,000, then is it fair and reasonable to say : I did not count in what I gave that 43,000,000, but I am getting that back, and I will give credit for it, and yet that is what the Minister hae done, and by that sort of book-keeping does he reduce the cost of the Oanadian Pacific Railway to the coun- try to 161,160,000. Mr. ORION". The value of the lands is created by the construction of the road. Mr. BLAKE. Oh dear. Oh dear ! Is the grant of land of no value ? I hope that I will hear tho Minister of Railways give that reason, and I will wait to answer it until then. Is it decent that a deliberate statement, a revised state- ment, a written statement, a statement carefully mado up and calculated, should be laid before this country by tliis Administration, based upon such principles as that, and that they should strive so to persuade the people that tho read will cost the country only that sum ? A very unhappy refer- ence was made by tho Secretary of State to tho aids to tho American roads and to the cost of those roads. No road in tho United States, not one of the Pacific roads, was given a money gift ; not a single Pacific road was given a money subsidy. Two of those I'oads were loaned bonds ; tho bonds were not given to them ; it was a loan of the credit of the country to the Union Pacific and tho Central Pacific, and it aggregated somewhere about $60,000,000 of bonds, for which a first mortgage was taken, which mort- gage was afterwards made a second mortgage to ease tho financial operations of the company. So that I say no road was given a present of money. Our road has been given a present of money and of works, which were built by tho Government and are therefore equivalent to money, according to my calculation, amounting to something like $58,500,000. As I have said, no American road received any grant of money, and only two received loans ot money — the Union Pacific and tho Central Pacific. They were built — we know when, we know how, we know at what era of railway building, in what condition of tho country, and under what circum- stances they were built. Why, to road the account of the construction of tho Union Pacific and the Central Pacific, at the time thoy were constructed, and to compare it with tho work of railway building to-day, or when the Canadian Pacific Railway was built, will show you the difference ; and as to the question ofco3t,whysomooftheiron rails, and those of a character which were not very good and did not last very long, cost the Union Pacific more than $ lOO a ton. The iron rails on a largo portion of the road cost alone $17,000 a mile. They cost more per mile than the entire construction of the 615 miles west of Winnipeg, which cost, supplied with steel rails, $16,800 a mile, against $17,000 a mile for iron rails alone on the Union Pacific. Then the stated combined mileage of the Union Pacific and Central Pacific, because in some of tho statistics this system is now combined — their branches and main line together — is 3,554 miles. Their land grants, as I believe is the case with all the land grants in all the American States, were of the land as it came. There was no provision whatever for bad sections, whether rivers, marshes, or unfertile lands. They took their chances with the coun- try, each taking ono-half, and it was a question, in fact, of lot. It was good arid bad. That is an enormous dififerenoe. Again, thoy took it onlj' out of tho sections that happened to be unallotted when they wore entitled to claim their grant, and they were not entitled until every particular section had been constructed and accepted. In the mean- time tho Unitecf' States were entitled to sell or settle the lands, and whatever the United States had sold and settled came out of the railway company's grant, and tho railway company did not locoive tho money or any allowance. Many millions, lives and tens of millions, were lost in this way from the different land granta of several of the Pacific roads. Since the first two roads were built circum- stances have wholly changed, and since that time not one dollar of money has been given or lent by the United States to an American Pacific railway. All that has been done is to give land grants, great quantities of at circum- not ODe United las been ities of which are desort, anJ of the great quantities which are not wholly desert, but are mixed up, gooJ, bad and indifferent, they of course come under the operation of deduc- tion to which I have referred. The Coutral and Unioo Pacific systems toctivod about 32,000,000 acres. The Atlantic and Pacific, whose intended mileage is 2,500, of which but a small portion is constructed, is to have only 17,000,000 acres. The Southern Pacific, 929 miles, has 10,445,000 acres; the Texas Pacific, 1,901 miles, 12,000,000 acres; the Northern Pacific, 2,700 miles, may get, but it is dis- puted, 42,500,000 acres, of which 15,000,000 is all that IS vested, and it is claimed the company has forfeited its right to the whole or to a veiy groat portion of the remainder, and of that which may not bo forfeited, a largo portion is hilly country. Comparing those in every aspect vou please, whether in the figures, in tho qualiiy oftho land, or in the cost of railway building, you find no com- parison whatever between tho American linos and tho Canadian lino. The Acting JVIinister of Kailways was im- prudent enough to refer to the cost of these roads, when he compared them to the Canadian Pacific Railway. I quite admit tho nominal cost was enormous. They wore con- structed on the good old-fashioned plan, tho plan which bus caused American railway investments to stink in the nostrils of Europeans, and even of tho American investor of late years. They were constructed on tho old plan of watered stock, of enormous bond issues, of cridits moliliers and construction company contracts, of which we saw a specimen on this Table a little whilo ago iu con- nection with the Canadian Pacific Railway. They wore constructed according to theso principles, and by these principles was this enormous apparent capital account created. The apparent cost of the Union and Central Pacific systems was $91,160 a mile or $324,000,000. The real cost was estimated to be about 830,000 a mile, as esti- mated when the road wds just about completed, by the engi- neer of the Government. In the year ISiJl again the Government officer estimated that the road would cost, laid with good stool rails, $25,042 a mile or$ J 1,150,000, instead of $324,000,000. Between one-third and one-fourth tho nominal cost of the road. Lot this be a lesson to us how wo permit tho system of btock watering to invalo our subsidised roads, how we permit tho system oicrilit mobiUers and couatructiou com- panies to invade our Legislative bails, as well as our com- panies' headquarters. Then oftho Atlantic and Pacific, tho nominal cost was $35,520 per mile or 883,81^,000; the real cost of that road, os estimated in 1831 by tho Government, was 820,000 a mile or $50,OOJ,000, Tho Southern Pacific, nominal cost $31,020 a milo, or $75,250,000 ; the real cost, estimated in 1881, was $25,000 a mile or $2.^,225,000. The Texas Pacific, 83T,416 per milo nominal, or 871,130 000; the real cost, estimated in 1881, was 820,000 a milo, or 838,020,000. Look at what wa* fictitious on tho one hand, and on the other look at what was real. Look at the nominal amount, the enormous amount of fictitious capital which has boon palmed otf upon a credulous public of investors, and under which so fur as tho law of competition has not admitted of relief, tho public tri- butary to tho railways is obliged to stagger, because, as I said, I entirely admit that, so fur as your road is a mono- poly road, tho capital account will bo regarded in consider- ing the tarirts; and therefore I am glad that hon, gentlomon opposite referred to those American roads and to their system of finance, because they furnish lessons to us, to which I have alluded formerly in this House, which were not heeded by the miij irity at-thut timo, and tho melancholy results of which we are now to reckon with. Tho hon. tho Secretary of State said, and 1 quite agree with him, that it was of prime importance to keep down tho cost of construction ; but it is also of great importance to keep down the nominal cost ; because you already find this com- pany rating its etock at $05,000,000, as if a dollar had been paid for every dollar of that $65,000,000. You find it osti. mating the cost of themainiineatasuminclnding^the aggre* gate of that nominal stock ; you find it already trying to persuade the public that there is value there for all the stock it issued at a discount of 60, or whatever it may be ; you already find it trying to pile up a capital account under which it may ask this llouso a little later on to sanction tolls upon that portion of the road which, under the monopoly provision is subject to and tributary to tho company. It was a sound and prudent proposal of the Secretary of State that wo should keep down tho cost of construction, and it is also a sound and prudent proposal which I have made that we should koop down the issue of fiotitious capital. I turn now to the nature and extent of our own Pacific Railway aids, and ojo cannot but be amazed and confounded a'^ the nature and extent of those aids. What are they ? There wore 1,909 miles of road to be built by this corporation, and 2,550 miles to equip. That is what they had to do. What is done for them? The Govern- mont builds and hands over to them 641 miles of the main line, besides tho Pembina branch, the probable cost of which I estimated, before tho hon. acting Minister of Railways made his statement, at 830,000,000. He says now 829,500,000. I dare say wo shall entirely agree by next Session, but I will leave it now at 830,000,000, because, I am sorry to say, half a million more or loss in the figures I am about to deal with is of very little consequence. Tho Government surveys cost 83,500,000 about, really, I believe, 83,440,0J0. The Government subsidy in cae several promises tho Minister of Rail- ways made to him ycetcrday ; but apart altogether from that, there is about $14,000,000. First of all, in British Columbia, aid to tho Island Railway and the dry dock ar- rangement, both made in compensation for the Pacific Rail- way, 81,0/iO,000. In tho Province of Ontario, the Canada Central, $1,440,000; Gravenhurstand Callander, $1,320,000; total, $:i,7C0,000. In Quebec, Now Brunswick and Miino — Ottawa to Quebec, $3,350,000 ; tho Junction, $200,000 ; pro- posed addition of this year, $3(i0,000;in that connection, $3,910,000. Riviere du Loup or Rivioro OuoUe to Edmund- ston, $240,000; proposed addition of this year, $258,000; total $498,000. The Short Lino proposal, which, as I understand, applies to Quebec, New Brunswick and Maine, is this: value of tho grant of $170,000 for 15 years, $l,890,i 00 ; the pre- sent value added this year by makin^r tho grant $250,000 for 20 years, or $1,510,000, maico a total of $3,400,000. I will slip in hero, as low a voieo as I can, for fear it should reach tho car of tho Aeting Minister of Railways — the IntornntionnI, 8158,000, making a total of $3,558,000, and a gniiid total lor (Quebec, Now Brunswick and Maine of S (,9;Ui.()aO. In Nova Scotia, Canso to Louisburg, $256,000 ; Oxford to Now Glasgow, $224,000 ; Eastern Extension, bought to carry out that ai'rangement, $l,2f6,000; Oxford and Sydney, $30,000 for 15 years capitalised, $3,i3,600, or 8-',100,000 in Nova Scotia ; making a total of $13,827,000 as tho aggregate of tho proposals of tho previous and tho present Session, outside tho Canadian Pacifio Eailway, but in connection with tho scheme of a grand transcontinental railway. Si that you are about to add that sum. Then, if you do not value tho lands, your total aids, including tho proposed loan, to the whole schorao, inside and outside tho contract, will bo $118 .510,000, and 20,000,000 acres of land. If you value the land at $ I , your total aid will bo $ 138,3 1 0,000. With tho land at 82 an acio, tho total aids will bo $168,310,- 000. But, Sir, lot u.s revert to tho contracted lino and omit any reference to these outsido engagements, which yet belong to the Canadian P.icific Railway policy :thoro is another way of viewing tho case. Apply the means which are provided by tho country as a ba.'-i^ of resources to build 1,909 miles of railway, ai d to equii) 2,5.')0 miles of railway, which was tho company's obligation, the result is as follows, on tho mileage biisisof 1,^09 miles: cash subsidy, $25,000,000; cash realised from land grant lionds and powers of that kind, 8 11,000,000 ; summing up, ?3t),000,000, or making cash gifts in this way of 818,8.tS por milo, availalile now, or in September, when the 1 no i-i completed. Government works and surveys, $3 ^,500,000, m-ikins- a gifi at th'i rate of $ 17,5 18 per milo on the 1,909 mile-; thus making an aggregulo of gifts in cash or its equivalent of $30,400 jier mile, with 20,000,000 acres of land, or a balance of 10, -170 acres ])er milo by tho oriL'inal contract. And if you value tlio lands at $1, tho original gift-i aro equal to 840,877 por milo ; or if you value them at $2, thoy are equal to $")7;348 por mile. Then, if 3'ou add the loans of 1881 ihe.so loans aro equal to $16,091 per milo on tho l.Oo;) miles of contracted lino. That makes gifts, cash and worksuf 8:16,406 por milo, and a loan of $15,091 por milo, or a total of cash, gifts and loans of $51,497 per milo, besides tho 10,47 1 acres por milo; if you valuo tho land at$l per acre it gives gifts $46,877 por milo ; loans 815,091 nor mile, or a total of $61,968 por mile. If you valuo tho lands at $2 por acre tho amount of gifts is $57,348 per mile ; loans $15,091 per mile, or a total of $72,439 per milo, Now ts become 24,310,000. ; a total of ian Pacific ago to our monls out- 1,000, apart ue the hor.. lat rate ho Ler of Eail- 3thcr from in British •y dock ar- 'aoifio Rail- tho Canada 81,320,000; ad Miino — 0,0(J0 ; pro- jonnoction, Edmund- 8,000; total indorstand, this: value '0 ; the prc- nt $250,000 $3,400,000. ir it should Iwaya — the $3,558,000, d Maine of , $256,000 ; Extension, )0; Oxford i3,600, or ,827,000 as s and the ilway, but ontinontal Then, if luding the outside the '08 of land. 38,310,001). $158,310,. e and omit yot belong lother w!iy e i)rovided 09 mile.s of ch was the he mileage ish realised .1,000,000; n this way abop, when surveys, per mile on Its in cash 20,000,000 ilo by the Is at $1, or if you lile. Then, to $15,091 ^bat makes of $15,091 151,497 per ue the land QsS 15,091 value the i per mile ; nile, Nov?. if you add the proposed loan of 16,000,000, that makes the total loans equal to $17,710 per mile— the old loan and the new loan ; and that makes the aids of cash gifts and loans $54,110 per mile and 10,171 aores per mile. Valuing the land at $1 per acio makes the amount, of the gifts and loans, $64,487 per mile ; and valuing the land at $2 per acre iho amount is $75,058 per mile for the 1,909 miles which the company are to build. Now, of course, I am not prepared to say, without going into further calculations, that this is too much ; one has to consider what was to bo done in order to find out whether this was too much or too little. I propose now to proceed to enquire what was to bo done for those aids. One year ago, when the loan of 1884 was a:*ked for, the official statement as to the cost of the contracted lino was as follows: expenditure already made, $23,073,1'5 i; materials on hand, $4,028,604; total amjunt required to complete the contract, $27,000,000, from which I deduct, for the moment, $1,700,000, being the amount out of that estimate attributed to equipment, because I am dealing with the construction, and have for the moment no roferenco to equipment. That is to say that $25,300,000 were required to complete the road ; and thus the total cost of construction would be $52,407,500. That is a plain and clear statement of the case given to the country by tha Government and the company last year, namely that $52,407,500 was to be the cost of building that lino, in accordance with the contract, apart from the equipment. Mr. Van Ilorno, in a paper on the Table, saj-s this estimated cost includes the permanent road round that part of Kicking Horse Pass which is now arranged for by a temporary line ; that the cost of both the ]iovmanent and the temporary line was estimated at about $1,360,000, of which $9dO,000 was estimated for ihe perma- tiout liiio. He has obtained permission to use the temporary line for some years to come, and therefore the permanent expenditure will not be incurred. I deduct, therefore, from the estimate of last year, $960,000, since we are not to have the permanent line built, and that reduces the cost to 851,410,000. But Mr. Van Home also says that $4,000,000 have been saved in British Columbia since the estimate of last year. Mr. Stephen, however, in his letter of 18th March, says that the saving in British Columbia has been offset by extra expenditure on the North Shore. Now,when you come to the briif, condensed and unsatisfactory statement placed before us, unverified and unsuppoited by the statement of any engineer, you find that the extra expenditure on the North Shore is stated by Mr. Stephen at $2,600,000, and that only. I deduct that sum of $2,500,000, unsatisfactory though the statement is, from the $4,000,000 which Mr. Van Home said was saved at the other end, and I find a net saving of $1,500,000 in that respect, as estimated last year. That being deducted from $H,440,000 reduces the cost of the lino, by the estimates and statements which are before us, to a trifle under $50,000,000. Now, as to the cost of equipment. When the loan was asked for, we were told that $1,700,000, which was included in the loan, was quite adequate, in addition to the existing equipment. The exist- ing equipment of all lines and branches was said, at that lime, to beof the value of $3,638,000; and the amount added, which was put into the loan for equipment, was $1,700,000 and it gave, as necessary for all the lines and branches, according to the estimate, $10,328,000. There is the required equipment for the main line and branches. I will make another calculation, by which to ascertain the cost of the equipment. I take Mr. Stephen's own letter of the 18th March, in which he states the expenditure for equipment up to 3l8t December, at $9,168,755 ; and that there will bo required $1,000,000, making a total of $10,168,750 for the main lino and branches. That is on aver- age within a fraction of the result of the former calculation. I take the larger of the two figures, so as to err on the safe side, and taking $10,338,000 as the cost of equip- ment of all lines abd branobes, and observing thai there are 2,660 miles from Callander to Port Moody, $3,000,000 would be the proper proportion for equipment. This accords, so far as 1 can see, with the figures given oa the last occasion. I have thus arrived at the cost of the con- struction of the contracted line and the cost of equipment for tho Government and contracted linos: 850,0ney and put it into tho handH of the Clovornment at 4 per cent, and thoy say: Keep this to secure the 12^^ per cent, dividends — 1 ask you what is to be oxpocted from finance like that? Now, Sir, the originnl proprietors who took the additional ».0,000,000, have on their $5,000,000 of cash, for which thoy received $iO,000,000 <>f stock, already received 52 por cent, on their capital invottinont. They got for part of the time 24 per cent, per annum on their investment, and fi>r the rest 20 per cent. They promised thrmselves a continuation of this name dividend until tho coniik'tim of tin. nxid, and honorable men, fulfilling their promise, they kept il,Sir, in ihf>diro distress of tho company in last September, they kept it in tho still more dire dis- tress of tno compuny on tho 17ih of February lant. What multerisd it that tho contiaulots wore unpaid? What mattered it that the section men on tho line, the employes, wore unpaid ? What matierod it that their credit was being destroyed V Whsit mattered it that thoy weie embarrassed in every way? Their promises to them- solves must bo observed. Thoy took out tho money and thoy put that money into the extra dividend producing these enormous profits, and left the coniraotors and section men, honest debts and everything else, unpaid, and destroyed the credit of the company. We could not collect our interest in May. We gave them lirao to pay it in May, becaufo we did not want to interfere with their ut^o of tho money in the prosecution of the work ; but thoy took care to pay their dividends, although they would not pay us our interest. There is one thing that muet be dene : the dividend must be paid, no matter who ia left out. Having got this 24 por cent, for part of tho time, and this 20 per cent for tho rest of the time, they havo secured themselves, by this arrange- ment, 12 per cent, for eight and a-half years to come upon this investment Blow high, blow low, do ill or do wel', give up the road, if you like, to-morrow, still there will be 12 per cent, up to the end of eight and a-half years. By tho end of ten years, for which this arrangement is made, they will have taken on that $5,000,000 tho sum of $7,810,000, apart altogether from the future oarnings of the road, on which the company declared just the other day, they expected to make a profit in the first year; so that, leaving the earnings out, it will repay them their whole $6,000,000, with lOJ per cent, interest, until repaid. They are absolute!}' secure to gut back every shilling of that $5,000,000 and 10^ per cent, interest on it under this iarrangement, and to own besides in respect of that investment twenty sixtylifths or nearly one-third of tho whole enterprise, land iiiid all. But they say you ought to average their investment ; that it is very unfair to deal soparately with the second 85,0()O,000. I deny that, but I shall go into the account on tho iivorago investment, too. Now, taking the average on the $10,000,000 cash thoy put ill, $5,000,000 of honest cash, ^5,000,000 tor which they get Iw'^nty millions. They have got $3,810,000 in dividends already, and they get, in eight y>arB and a-holf, $6,875,000 more, or $10,485,000 of dividends, apart altog(4her from the road and the land and the future earnings of the road, on $10,000,000 capital. Mr. HAGGAET. Why don't you buy some of the stock ? Mr. BLAEE. I do not know what tho hon. gentleman's interest in the company is. Mr. HAQGART. I havo none, but you say it is a good investment. Mr. BLAKE. But the law forbids any member of Par- liament to be an owner of stock of the Canaermise '^^ the 30uiiUy to loduce interest on thr public debt and to create an interest charge on tho new capilAl, while the company are saying that whatever happens we must take care of ourselves and the Government must take care of us, and we must lay by a nest-egg for ourselves. I maintain that the proper place for the company's money is the company's road. I maintain that we have no right to connive at transactions like this, to approve or to endorse them. We never contemplated such an act as this, that millions upon millions would be omitted, representing a nominal capital of $60,000,000 and an actual capital of $;24,50O,OO0, and then that we should be called upon to lend about $2H,500,000 and then be asked for $5,000,000 more, and to impair our security and lower our rate of intei'osl, in order that those gentlemen may run no risk at all, but ensure to themselves largo interest in the mean- while and a magnificent enterprise subsequently. They say it will pay a dividend from the start. It is just about to start. Let them take their dividend out of the earnings, and use their monoy to compioto the road which is to pro- duce the earnings. Do not let them do like the man of old, put their money in a napkin and bury it in the ground ; but lot them put it where it will do the most good for the country, put it whore it is destined to go, put it where it belongs. For what purpose was the stock issued — the stock ot $60,000,0(10 ? To make dividends for the stock- holders 7 Was it not that the money might be got to build tho road ? Use the money then to build the road. The com- pany have already taken $7,000,000 out of the nominal capital and put it in their pockets. Let tho company take the $14,000,000 in the hands of the Government and put it into the road. That money will pay off tho floating debt ; it M l» will give* the reqvlred new money ; it will keep oar ■eonrities jast ae they are, and it will prevent the neoeaaity of rednoins oar rate of interest. If the shareholdera want 114,000,000 more let them aak aa for that money of theira which the Government now holda. My view ia that the company ousht to apply to Parliament for what Parlia- ment woaid, no doubt, willingly gi vo them ; that these share- holdera should say: Gentlemen, we And that we misoaloa- lated, that we took too much of our money as profits on our stock. We find that we want Home of that money for the ohjeot to which it should be devoted, namely, to pat it into the road which wo were to build, and fVom the earn- ings of which we were to receive dividend i; will yoa please hand it back to us, this 114,000,000, so that we n^ay put it into the road, that it ma^ so to its proper destination and earn its appropriate dividend. Let the shareholders make that statement to as, and we will wil- lingly comply with their request We will sa^: That is where the money should always have gone, certainly where it ought to go now. I believe no ground whatever has been made oat tor granting the appiioation of. the Canadian Pacific Railway Company or the proposal of the Govern- ment, which is oalculatea to impose for all time lu c(imo u f\irther charge of fifteen millions of dollars on the ooin- morce and trade of this country, to exaggerate lo that extent the rates and tolls required to make tho Canadian Pacific Railway remunerative ; and all thin is to be done because the stockholders in this enter- prise, having realised from t60,000,000 of stock |24,IM)0,000, have chosen to appropriate 124,500,000 w pay dividends upon their stock. I say they ouvht to be told : Gentlemen, you can have tho 114,000,000 when v u desire to obtain it Assemble in general me )ting, and if you want that money, come and ask uh for it, and it will be handed over; it is voar money, deposited as a fand for you; but while it is tDere,'it is nothing less than irnpadent ror you to come to us and ask us for more money, ask us to impair our security, and ask us to allow j'ou to make fui ther permanonl charges on the road, simply in order that yonr diridendH may be assured beyond pera