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Tous les autres exemplaires origiriaux sont film6s en commen^ant par la premidre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'lllustratlon et en termlnant par la dernldre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la dernldre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbole — »► signlfie "A SUIVRE" le symbols V signlfie 'FIN". Les cartes, planches, tableaux, 9tc., peuvent Stre film6s d des taux de reduction diffdrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul cllch6, II est fllm6 d partir dfc I'angle supdrieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'Images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent ia m6thode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 /s o-^ 5: m%% 0| (K0mm0M SIK PJCHAED J. CARTWRIGHrS REPLY TO THE BUDGET SPEECH Delivered in the House of CommoDs, Peb. 29th, 1884. . Sir lilCiiARI) CARTWRIGHT. Mri Speaker, Iiaving been prevented by :\n express provision of an Act of Parlia- ment *o that intent niade and provided, from .x)ing pi-esent l;iat year wlien cLe hon. g( ntlenian made hiw financial .shitement, I am not quito an familiar as r could T^isJi to be wdth the coarse of the dii^cuasion in 188:;. P.ut I will venture ■o say, alUiougli I was not present then, that I La\-e very little doubt that tho ion. gentleman on that occasion took a \-«ry different tcme, and struck a very dif- fenmt attifcu'.In from that which Le has as- .sumed to night. Sir,itv/us not for nothing Uwt; the hon. gentleman in the pro- .s<-at instRuce. found it necessary to apolo- gize and defend, and excuse as far as he could, as well as ho knew liow, the policy.- of which he has i)een the exix)nont for so- !ong. . • Some UeiotirJiablo Adiui«sions.' rift undoubtedly madf^ some remark- able admissions to which I shall direct your attention and the attention of \ the Howse. Tho hon. gentleman told us, and told us truly enough, that it is lif^t possible for his policy to .ivert ov'atify my natural curiosity, he will tell me yfln.i is the bill Sir CHA.RLES TUPPEK In good time. Sir RICHIRD CARTWBIO*^. Thu^ is the tinto. Sure^ ^e oik^i to know. How many more million^ are gbing to be added to the debt of the country- I thinkj Mr. Speaker, that they are not dealing quite fairly with the House and the country, or their own supporters, in. keeping that inteiesting information at the back of their heads. Now, I do not suppose the hon. gentleman is going to repeat the process which he earfied out in 1873. Then I reeollect, he brought down a Budget statement; bat, although he must have been well aware of what was in contemplation, he did not tell us-, if my memory serves m*^, by $3,000,000 a year, what was to be tha total expei>- diture under the new obliga ions which the country was going ta Sir, I (*>:* not suppose he is going to add $3,000,000 in the present instance o our expenditure ; but he is going to add a conai lerable sum, and what the sum is, I repeat^ we ought to know. , The Spirit of Prophecj. Now, I would like to have heard fpora the hon. gent'eman a little more fully, a jusdfication of the present enormous taxation. I would like to have been in- formed, a little more fully than he has condescended > tell us, what his policy is going to be .a the event of a larga re- duction of lm[>ort8 : and I would like that for tv»7o reasons. The hon. gentle- man knowij — indeed he admits — ^tiiat it is a thins very.^ likely to happeu j and more, he tells us that it is very desirable. The year of all years which he held up, and always has held up as a model year, is that especial year in which our exports slightly exceeded oni' imports. Well, Sir, if his policy is going to be as successful in the future as it has }>een in the past, '.f our imports are going to be ledoced 80 as to just balance our exports, then it is clear, on the hon. gentleman's own showing, that we must expect a very- large redaction of revenue ; and we have some right to know how he propoana t» \^ v^ I. m a 3: v^ i i meet that redDction, in ,sucii event. Sir, the hon. gentlenun, in dealirg with thii qnestion, and with the recent con- p»c£kially estopped himself from k)okiug the situation in the face. On that occasion the spirit of prophecy descen- ded on the hon. gentleman — or rather, I should say a spirit of prophecy decended on him. There are diti'erenoes in spirit which probably the hon. gentle- man did not understiind. He was good enough to tell u« then that we need take no fear for the future — carry on all sail, ^uoth the hon. gentleman, I am at the helm, and you are safe for seven years. Now, Sir, he has given several reasons for the depression which exists. I will give another: It was the misplaced confidence which his supporters in the House and in the country put in the hon. gentleman's prophetical vision on that oocasion. Sir, I was a little at a loss to understand exactly what the hon. gentle- man's speech implied in the matter of depression. One-half of his speech, as I imderstand it, was taken up in showing that there was no depression, and the other half in assigning reasons for the existence of the depression. As my hon. friend knows, I am not a profound lawyer, but it does occur to me that there is such a thmg as an objection to a plea for multifariousness. Are we in a state of depression, or are we not 1 I can hardly mike out, from the speech of the hon. gentleman, what particular line he takes on the present occasion. It would not trouble me whether he took the one or the other, for this reason — that T can neither agree with his statement that we are not in a state of depression, nor with his explanation as to the causes which have brought about ihat depression. Sir, I do not believe, tiiat there is a man of business in this House or in the count? y outside who will say, that to daT Oan*ua is in a very satisfactory condition, com- mercially or financially. At this present momcntj as the hon. gentleman miist know, men are apprehenirive, men or not anxious to enter into new enterpriBed. I am sorry to say that the old entevpriaeB are not giving as good an aooount df them- selves as we could wish. Now, I say- there is no sufiicient cause for thftt. The check which we have encount«r»(i is ap- parently a slight one. One purticalar. crop in one-half of a Province— truey a very important Province — has boen a failure ; but I say that under ordtnaiy circumstances that failure should not have produced the BtaXe of appr^ienaion or the state of depression which ur^ doubtexlly does exist to a very great ex- tent in this country. Sir, I will tell the hon. gentleman thf.t it is beginning to dawn on men's minds, even on the minds of his own supporters, that high taxed do not insure national prosperity^ and that wise statesmen will count the cost before they throw tens of milliona of dollars away to aid a company that;, may get into difficulties. Now we will take s )me of the tests that the hoiu gentle- uan has in former times, aye, and to- night, applied, and we will see to what exigent those tests indicate the present condition of the countiy. The hon. gentleman sp nt a good deal of time in explaining how and why it, was that the shrinkage in bank stocks was not to be taken as & matter of serious moment I do not counider them mjself as a mat^ter of extreme moment, but I point this out, that when those stodis were high the hon. gentleman tr">k credit for their being high ; he declared that was oce of the results of his T»oJicy. These siocks have shrunk to a very large extent with- in the last twelve months. True, there has been a rally in one or two .of the most imjwrtant of theai within the last fftw weeks, and perhaps certain K<')Solu- tions which lately paased through this House might exi)lain to those who wish to know why those one or two particu- lar stocks have rapidly asoerderi within the last fortnight or mcnth. But the fact I'emaiiis, that the 8iocks, «8 a whole, are many millions of dijllars lees in sell- ing value to-day than they were this time twelve months. Why, even the BauV crt" Monti-eal Htock sold on tho l.'Jth ot' February, last year, at '20 Sh and to- or of bankruptcies. 1 do not in tfie slighlcKt degieo con- sider that a rantter of oon- ut allow me, Sir, to t^ll the lion, gentleman that he is very much mistakf'U if he >>elioves that, ai this Tixomtjnt, in the princif >al cities of Canada tlio people, ajid particularly the employees of manofacttm -rs are eith(*r prosi>erous or oontfjntod. 1 Hiiy it with soxtow and i-egri^t, that in the chief city of Ontario It has been stated publicly and it has not b -eu contradicted I believt^ that it is a iiiet that HRveral thousands of people were indebted to charitx' for a part of their subsistence during the present ■ uLuter. TafiTii are other tests, however im which tho hon. gentleman is fond of in his opinion, or in that of any other hon. gvitleman^ a proof that this country is at this moment in a v')r>- prof^roua condition. IncreaKed Trade witli Great Britaiiu But I de«ije to say a few words on a matter to which the hon. gentleman aUu- ded in this connection, and to which, if T am not laistaken, some of his colleagues have very oftiu alluded, and that is, the e'xU^nt to which this hon. gentleman's policy has increjised our trade with (Ireat Britain and dimi- nished our trade with the United States. Now I do not suppose tliat tho hon. gentleman made that statement with any intention to deceive the House. I do not accuse him ot doing that. But I say that the hon. gentleman wiis hardly fair in making a comparison between the year 1883 and the year 1876, iii the matter of the trttde of tho two countries. Ob« was a prosperous year ; the other was a year of considerable depression.. However I would pass thuc over, but I will caU the atten- tion of the liouse to this, that when the hon. gentleman spoke of the imports from the United States in the one year and compare them with tho imports from the United States in the other, ho wholly and entirely forgot to inform the Housti that under the present Tariff, imposed by himself, tho nominal imports entered for our coasumption from the United States almost exactly represent our true imports, whereas, in 187G, as everybody familiar with the 'I'rade and Navigation Returns knows, our nominal imports from the United States include a great many millions of dollars for .goods that were entered in tra.mtf, and simply passed^ through this countiy on their wuy to* (ireat'Britain. That fact vitiates entire- ly the hon. gentleman's comparisons from first to last. I will g(j back a little fur- ^ Aer. I v>Ul tako tl.e year 1873, which IS a fair year of comDarisou with* ihi.s yeax of 1888, and m this point hm l^oon made a gi-eat deal of by tho hon. i?cntlc- nion m this House, uud onth.3 other side of the Atlantic, 1 call the spocial atten- tion of the Houa(; to tho oftect whioli tie prosont policy h.-.a ,000 ; our true im- ports from th.> United Htate.s in tiie .simt; year, deductin^r tlioso -ood.s whicli ]^tb,snd • m traimtu, although thcv were, undr-r '■ the old form, entered for^ousiimptiou. ' were -f 40, J8S.OO0. Our tnie exp same year, wore ;:;31,18»;,0l}0 ; our true : oxports to the United .States of our r.wn i $3. ,202,000. AV hat weiv the f.u-ts List ! year— facts well Moith knowin-/^ Our | imports from Great 1 Jiitain ^^-ere ^i)2,i lOO 000 ; our exports to Great lint ain.. .four , OM-n produiv, w^tm .^•31>,(j 72,000. Our ' imports from the Lrrit^-d States, in these goods, which r. ;illy and aotualh- t-ntered into consumption, were >)5»;*000 000 • our sales to the .('nited States u-en,' 5530,963,000, as before, .strilvini? out short returns. >^'ow. Sir, what is the result? W hy, th'}jody tJiat, In 1^73, und/r I the old policy, w*'. carried on a hiTv^ con. I trabaiid trade with the United States, I selling them sevend millioris of dollars' I Nvorth of goods that did not appear in I our returns, and now, under his policy, j the United Staies seJl us .several mill. ens I 01 dollars worth of goods that do not j appear in iiieir r.:tums, or ours either. I Sir, 1 do not insist Aorj- much on tht.- : question, because I do not rega'rd it, as I the hon. gentleman app^rs to do, of ver\- gre.ut moment, but it is of moment in this way, that tiie hon. gen* Jomfm here and th(!hon, gentleman's col leagues «flsewherfs ha\e pointed tiiunipliaiitly to the facts, as they stated them, as proof tiiat this M-a.s a Taritl which favoured trade witli Great I5ritain, and to a considerable ax- tent diminislied trade tvlth tho United ' States. Tsow the House, gentlemen on this side and gentleinen on that side., oan judge for them4pj^-ps how just was I the boast that our presc^nt p-jHcy had I increa.sed our trade with ^Jrciic Britairu : had ih'minishi'dour tnule with ti>e United i States. i'luj Jiou. gt-ndoman Jty'd groat ^ sti-e.ss on t}ie ;inu;unt of dojK>sJ.ts rn sav- I ings -brinks. .N.,w. ;is far as it goes, tha.t I IS a good sign. | r,tn i;ot going t.o dis- I l)iite that. poHiti-.n witJi the hojj^ pentle- j man. Bui 1 will r::iil the attention oi ; the House to one or two trict^^. l^'irst of I all I cull tho ittt-ention o{ the .House to i this, that a good •dr^al of these extra de- j posits in tho savings bank were obtained by the hon gentb-man ))y paying interest largely in (ivcss of th.- ean-ent mai-kot rate. When the bai^ks would only give .*> per cent., the b.m. ojentleman continued to give I. Tha^ is to sjiy, ho wntinued to pay mort? for money at eall, about one- ' third moi-e, than those wJio worn dcalin"- in that conuuodity thought it w;w wort.L Moreover, it is ;. -^reiM mistak;''* to sup- that the Hione)- M'hieii wo borrow from the people only eoste ub -i- y^r <>'at All the expenses of m;mag(rment, a.raounting from a (juarter to ;i half p(T cenu on the present de]K)sirs. liave to be added Moreovei , if he nd.opts the nrdirjjirr rules of banking, if hi^ preserves in goW, as U ought to do, a suftloient reser\v3 f^ meet 6 ,^v and it ruthov difficult, .t sometime or other, to ree« d.i««^ I do not^ ^y_^^^^^ ^^ I tSTwiU :^-,b»t I -y tho« .- Sloe ot BUCU - ---t r™denU» 11 or,.q in t>av considerably more for it Led Wiod of de -•> f ;-t ^ JS I »« ■'"t/^^'XLc no aW. to employ "^ Ld it vouH t«, bettor employed, ^ to. tKH-manont forms, tr.>m wlucU he U:tX;^*J.UUme-e,ie«^; ,K)»itic-.,atilt.me to «»""''; y^o^it^r 'forms o£ the t»opart>e» mj^,-^ ^_ with respcrt to 2J^^^ it, the aconient. A« "- " ,»ortv -waft, and I pUtform of the L^^'^VfwL O^vem- . L, that it is the du y of a w.se I ment to keep down the f^^^ ^^^ j^ the down the oxpenditure of a <^-''^^^l ^^ t^osition of Can^la - .ow^^^^^^ We say also, bu-, that n^^ ^^^, the people of Canada ^^f^Z^^^'cn^ GovLrmuent can n^ake or k^P ^^\; . ada should bo a cheap f ^^^^^y ^^^^^d go a country whore a °^'^^« ^^"^Jid obtain far, a country where a man cou a good return for the n^^ney he ha^ J out. and, for that ^'^--^;^^,^t the , follv to impose heavy * ^^f f °\^ tem- I ^e;t mas. ^^^^^^^^^''^Znoi the porary benefit of a smau i aiate ^manufacturing ^"^terest I x ^^ most utterly, for ^nyBeU ^^^ ^.^ Mends here, every ^^P^f^";^^^^ the have the smallest animosity towa^.^^^ manuhxctures of ^un^da. ^.tletrue that t:nur.'ly. i say w u friends of the great bulk of thc^^ ^^^ facturers ot_ Canada I Ha> ^^^^y. their tru.' friends and L saj^ ^^^^ respect, in ^'^^^ of the laci ^^^ has an enormous .take ^ ^ev^f ^^^^ j ! great country ^o.tte noHh-wes^^^ ; fay that his policy ^^ Xwevelopment, to retard and ^™P«^*^'.J,t ^Ttlcle in the and to put every PO^^f ^ obst"^^^^^^ 1 ^ay of the ^unfortunate settle^ >^^,^J^ 1 trust his fortunes }^ ^^^^^^Znt. In i under the P'f ^^\, f ^;^Ue7 of the all these ].ioinis, the poni-v tion. gentieman, an deiimxl hv him tkdf vill do our best to explam to the people on all occasiomi- how exceedingly they have been deceiA^xl by the sophistries, not no mudx of the hon, gentleman as of those who ait besid.^ him, ami who, as I said, uoceeded five or sLx years ago in convert- og the peophi fur tli<^ time to their view of the matter. Now, 8ir, I will say one tJiing for these gentlemen, they have lived up to their creed, they have" done their atmoat to raise taxation to the highest .point, theyha\ e done their utmost to raise the expenditure of Canada to th«^ highest point, and it is not the first time, either. N'ow, we have had fivi> years' experience, :ind I say as \\ ell as the hon. gentlemen, that the time has come when we can see I ^vhat we have really done, and also at what cost it has been doni\ Sir, thu hon. gentleman defines his policy as a gixiat ♦OKperiment. f Le said the truth. It was u. great experiment, and it was an experi- ment which at the time it was ti-ied had ♦everything in its favour. Wo had hard rimes -by no fault of the late Adminis- tration ; we had the example of the United States, which no doubt had a ^'ery great intiuence on many of our i»eople ] we had the clamour of a small and influential class who saw their own private interest in assisting the hon. j^entlemen ; they were able to make iaag«l£osiit promises ; promises cost uotiung, and they made them frc^jly, and r I therefore they did succoeOHe the hon, j gentleman is going to tell us that the I fact that in 1879, and shortly after, money ! became extraordinarily cheap and plenti- ful in New York, in J.ondcm, Paris, Amsterdam, and almost in aU'the great j centr<^B in commerce in the world, was j protluced by the National Policy adopted I in Canada ; and ye;. Sir, that was a very important factor in the condition of the I people of (knada, that undoubtedly j proved a great l»enifit, and they reaped a great advantage from the fact the,t j money at that time htid became cheap j and plentiful in all the money centres of j the ■world. Almost at that same time, j there took place, as every man knows, a j great re\ ival in the United States. Now j I am always happy to agree with the lion. j gentleman if I can ; it is not often, I am sorry to say, that ] can do so ; and I en- tirely concur with him in saying that, the prosperity of Canada is xeiy intimately oonnoct(Hl with the prosperity of the United States ; but I do not believe. Sir, that the fact thai we imposed veiy heavy taxes in Canada had a great deal to do with the other fact, that trade and com- merce throughout the length and breadth of the United States revived in 1879, and I hardly thiiik the hon. gentleman himself will venture to say so. Then, 8ir, added to these things, we had, as everybody knows, extraordinary good harvests and extraordinary good pric<'« - produced by the National Policv, were they ? No ; but ^y the fact that," unfor- tunately in England, Ireland, and on the continent of Europe, they were bad 'harveHts at iL- lai-ntical timo that wo ! SidT-l -.>s, so that wo had at on... un- n.J\y good rrices unu a" miHvml , quantity of tbingn U> hoU^ „i^' ^ i^.! *V« Vni-thAW^t was oponod up, ami in.- | ^'^^^^^Xidbri^i:^ fjr.tr^iuditti ^^if y -^:«i^ Svo a great impetus up to thi. tuna tlfitthe hon. gontloinun had thf advan- ilttof ^min,lnto otnceaud ivapmgth. frSits of live yeurs of honest -;^Fj;d«nt \dtniniHtration under my hon. fuond from E«Ht York (Mr. Maokonzie, AdTautageof five yearn goodOovmi. • ment. Sir I am astcniahod at tho ingmtitude of hon. gentlemen opposite ^aa rogar^B myBdf. 1 do not expect much gratitude from them - I waived my c aims ; but Zy otight to be grateful to my hon.. riend 4«ido me. If the hon. ,'entleman «uppoHeH for one moment, it the horu Mnister of Customs supposes that lam hero as a craven ap..loglst, he make, a r^at miHtako. T am hero not "u^rely to Sofond but to justify and tomuintam the ;ho^eoond•aetofmyhol^. friend during ^^^''SSw^r-Andto defend your "Xki"hART> .1. OARTWIUGHT. 1 am prepai-ed to do V>oth. \ Mr. BO WELL. It in not very goner- , OU8 to do that. TrrtirKTawT T ■ Sir RICHARD -T. ^-'^^^^^^^^^"rk:; ' do not claim credit for generosity Xhis •is not a question of generosity, but of tact IS truth. Hir, I do not deny there j. as ( depi-ession at the timeof my hon. riemlB Administration. There noc<.ssanly wa^ depression, but there was ten times more ,n the i: nit.sa uf th<. kmdh- n°S; X heart, was far too gon^^uB^*^ hon gentlemen oppoHiti, ; that wa. anoiher mistake. I adnut al>«,, that m tho excess of his F-trotism, ho nomewhat over-^timated the sense of >^'^-;^«^y «^^. i^temgeuco of ^^^^^^^ f^,. my hon. friend ; and to J^^^^,*^^^ hon, gentlemen opposit.N i will further aTthat they are faults that the., la no. ^^wlfe" ,'tbit ^^^^t^n-er my hci. mcnd^ mistakes may have ^.^'^'^^^^ ,^ ^^ . substantially wise ana just -^^ ^^'^^ i hat it would have been luUmtely beUer for Canada had it l>een earned out from llhatdaytothiH. tSir,itwaH_a«reatmi. fortune' that, pru.r to 187.^., Canada fortune tnat, pi»'^ -- ; ^^HonK o^our in cci-tain contmgonc.oB. if tho«3 wa^ngs were neglected or disregarded It h"« Sot been the fii^ttimo-^iwontb^^ the last-when men like my hon, friend ' for doin- all that mortal men could do ' for the "benefit of their «^^ntry have ! found themselves tr<-ated .^-ith ingratitude I'^^wJS^^Hostings). ItwaByx>ur ' fiiends who ^""^"^^j,^"" ?,^^.prpTrT I Sir RICHARD CARIW ^-t<-7^/: ; i think the people majleajeatm^^e^^^ deposing my hon. fnend m 1878, and i f ^1 ttii the hen. g«^^v"r^rh?ist perhaps in his heart of l^^^^t. ^»«,!^- 1 Sii^ to think that too. ^o;^» fe"^' ^^ZlX the case today 1 The hon. gentleman ha. given us his expia^ia^ He teUs us, if I took down hi« -wot^ atiKht, tliat one cau.v,amor.« othor thin-^s, of tho piwmt dHprewdon, is tho fact thut our lumbfT iiitluhtry Is not us g.xxi as it Mra«. -jwlwill just mil hlH attention to thia. It may }h, tnit,, I Jaio say it is true, th;it duri;iff t!.-.; riwuin^ six months oup lunilxr industry m.iy sliu^kou, but 1 H«.! in tho returns laid on the Tabin, "? , oo ''*"'^' *^'"*'"^' ^''*^ '»st «i^ months ot 1881', wo had oxpol-tod of products of the forest, |i8,0:)0,000, w hadoxportod in thfi la.st six months of 188.'{ >Sl8,l8y,0(}0 worth. .\W, Sir, that .an! noc be^ ur«ed as proof of any present dopi-easioii. 'rher.3 may Ih> risk in luturc —J am not preparrul to say there is nrjt : but the fa<'t tJuit uo sold $100,000 worth of lumber up to Ist .January, 1 88 i, more than up to 1st January, 188.'], shows that that ujnot a cau8.3 of tho diHtn^H ivhich has occurroa up to tlie present I Umo Jlo tfUks also of ov«r-production j and or tho poor harv.'st. Weil, i wiU ' ••i^ee that all those thuit^s ai-o factors in ' the matter. Hut thoro uro otlior causes, '"? T. ^'^^ *^'^1 ^'lo hon. goniloman and the I IiHisj what those wmsea are. Keasons for Jtoprcssion. <^auaila to-day is distre.ssod, there is no doubt of it, and I am afraid the rea- •sons are those. Virsb of uU, bceause a pat drill of the money of tho i>eopIo hjw been ttiken iroiii tliem by exccssi\'e, nnjuftt and oppidHsive tiX:vation. Xo\t' «ir, because the poliey of tho (^overn- inont has caused a iji-eat lock up of ca})ital m maimfaetures which were not wanted m 8o small fi countr>' as this. Then, Sir n very considerable loss, as to which 1 vriJl have a good deal to say hereafter, ■has l>een caused by th(i omi-mtion which lias taken place from Ontario and Cianada | Ht large, also largely eaused by the policy • Ot hon. gentlemen opposite. The i tourth cause is tl.e locking up of capital } J^hich has taken place in the North-West, ; for which also I will show those hon. gentlemen are responsible. And the • •• ^^"*^^ tlio increased coj^t of living, I or -.Twivh the hon. gentleman's Taritf and ' •Hnd its indirect i-esultg are aeriourfy ' responsible. I do nofc deny that the poor harvoht in western Ontario hits done ita sham; but I say that of all thoHoortant on.s an» ilirot.-tly attributable t» the jKjlicy of tho ph-aent (rovcrnmenk Now, Hir, wo eomo to tho quf\ation of iLo lii-st eaiis»* -the onerous taxation—and here then) are a few wnHid.-rationK to 1m) ]>r(;senteix)teotion do«^.s or docs not make us an ude'iuato rutum — from j the very uatun; of the case, {.rotoctioii 1 .must be eosUy, from the very nature of j the case if \ou imp(js(i a tavatitm of liO, .'30 or 10 ])er cent., ;us tho cjusct may be, to e.vtJude certain goods, ' and cause otiiei-s to be mmiufactur.jd iu j the eoujitry, just in proportion as you in , crease the mauufaetun; ^ou umst impoae I a large additional tav on liifj ]x>ople. 1 i do not supix)so the ^rinisfcer of Finance - I himself will venture to deny that pro- position ; 1 am sui-o those of h s supporters ; who have looked into the riue.'jtion ysHi not I venture to do so. Now, 1 am not going to sp^ak of tl)e indirect effects of proteo^ tion ; I am goiug t:o H^xjak of tho tilings to which thobon. gentleman has alluded him- self. And lirst ofall, we will take thearti- cicof sugar. 'I'hehon. gentleman £ a vs that sugar is \ cvy cheap to-day. U may' be ac. The hou. gentleman wa.s good enough tcv toll us that it is <;lieii}«jr to-day llian it was four or five years t^go. .It may bo so. That does not aflcot tho argument at alL Our position is this: under theTaiiff o£ the hon. ffeJitleman. xucrnr i>i Tniiol. ^I^o-.-- : than It need be, after deducting the sum which goes into the Treaflury. Tu- 10 lost. now So, j|av 1 am informed by men o£ high ^t^luuT inthetmde, youco.il-i putdown J^treal, free of duty, the., cl^s of Bnound8. Our duty then was largely below our duty now our duty then was about 25 per cent less ^n iv is to-day on th- grades of su^ar which go into consumption. In that time vro have added about 30 per cent to our consumption, and we have added 25 per ,:entto our duty, and the result is that we nave received $100,000 less monej-. We obtxined $2,567,000 in l^.S^^^^^^ n lower scale of duties on 108,000 000 lbs. of sugar; on 152,000,000 lbs in l88o «^ received $2,470,000, although we ha. o added largely to the duties. There is an iUustration, if the hon. gentleman wants it I do not mean to say there may not b- some counterbalancing advantages to be offered, that some trade may no* be brought to Montreal by that policy. That is not the point. I am not arguing vrhether protection is good or not. -»uc ttat protection costs the general public many ndllions more than actually goes mto the Treasury. The same is true, tihoueh not to the same ejilent, oi coai. Ooal is a ra>» Wterial to manofacturers. Ewrv man knows when you place a duty ontha^ article that the amount paid into the Treasury does not moaaui-e the amount .ta. ken out of the pockets of the people.Bvery one knows that if the hon. gentleman has succeeded, as he tl^^-^ ^^^f^^^'o^^J^^^ DS he has, in earning about $20,0WA^w werth of textile goods to be man- ufactured here, presumably, giv^ emplovment to 14,000 or 15,0u0 peions, that haa only been done by imposing a duty, probable of 30 per cplnt, certainly not less than 25 per cent, on all consumers of the goods^ And therefore, I say in estimatmg the t«x- ation of this country you must add many mUlicnsto the sum actually paid mto the Treasury- in fact we ^"^^ add an amount which we cannot satisfactorily measure. The hon. gentleman is m this dilemma. If he disputes these figures, it he thinks he does not give <;^ployment to 14,000 or 15,000 persons, that he has not succeeded in causing our nianufecv- urers to produce that quantity of go^, what then becomes of the l^ome mw^et which was to recompense the ^^^*V°i tn people for the amount of taxation to which they were to be ^^^J^^^^ed. Le. the hon. gentleman make his selection. I repeat that I am not arguing as to whether protection is good or bad, but simply as to what it actually costs the people of the ». j :ntry. Canada Heavily Taxed. The result is ^ this : Canada to^ay is a very heav ly taxed courtry. There are other countries mo.o heanly taxed than we are, perhaps, but not many J^t us compare our position with that ot England and with that of the United States; and lot us bear m mind that it was not ^1^*^^, «?;.^^J Canada started on the race of national 1 fe ve)T lightly burthened, indeccl by '^.r.Zou\itl other countries. Now I have never contended, I do not now Lnte'd, that it is possible to avoid aU increases as a country grows in papula. i„^;.„ T -..m wiiUna to admit, that a« ;i7eiuntry increases in ^P'^^JJ' ^ very considerable increase of expon^ture iH necessary and legitimate. But, Sir, 1 unt '.ta>' i.Every lan has Ipevha^ )00^00 man- giving 15,000 done 30 per Qv cent., s. And he tax- }d many into the add an ifactorily s in this igures, if ploynient it he has nanufacw- of goods, e market sat of tho tation to ted. Lei Bolection. jQg as to bad, but costs the 11 ida to-day ty. There yily taxed nany. Let ih that of of the i bear in 8 HO ; that of national indeod, by ies. Now, ) not now o avoid all in popular lit, that as puiatiop^ **• expenditure Bat, »Sir, I aak tbe House is this a reasonable state of things? In 1867, Canada commenced her career with a total population, as ijjwn by the Census Estimate, of 3,375, 000. Canada's total laxation then was ;B13,500,000. In 1883, deducting In- dians, the population is probably about 4,300,000 — certainly not more than 4,375,000- and the taxation according to these returns had swollen to $(35,800,. OOa Our population had increas- ed not quit3 1,000,000, or barely 1,000,000; our taxation haduxamsed by $22,250,000. Our taxa- tacnper head in 1867 amounted to $1; our taxation in 1883 amounted to very nearly $9 per head-— and much more, if we were to take into account the enor- mous amount of additional taxation to which I havB alluded, which is taken out of the pockets of the people, although it do^ not go into the Treasury. So that, while our population incre^W about 30 per cent our nominal taxes have in- creased about 200 per cent AJvstract Propositlou. Now, I admit that abstract propositions *annot always be depended on. But I «ay thAt in matters financial you can al- most certainly, with safety, lay down this prqpoBition: that whenever, with- out war or some other extraordinary i cause like that, you find the taxes of a \ country increasing very rnpidlv, in- ' creasing out of all proportion 'to its population, you may rest assured that die Government has been grossly- extra- vagant, and in all probability grossly corrupt. And whenyou find tlio taxation r^amain stationary for a term ot years, you miiy ieel equally assured tiiattho (Jovern- mont has been honestly and economically conducteu. Now, Sir, it is a matter of importance that we should know how we stand by comparison with the two groot countries with which wo do most of our business and most of our trade. I want to call the attention of the House to the way in which the present position uf Canada conrasts with the present positionof the people of the Uniteti States, who, like ourselves, have the misfortune, as I conceive, of labouring under an un- fair system of taxation. In 1867, 1 find that the taxation ©f the United States, from all sources, amounted to about $396,000,000, their population then bemg, as nearly passible, 38,000,000, by estimate. Sir, in 1883. the taxation of the United States by the President's Massage wa.s |398,287,00Q, and the population, by estimate, 54,000,000. Taxation of the United states. Now, Sir, thehon. gentleman, as he truly says, is great on averages, so to oblige him I will take the United States averages for 1807, 1868, and 1869, lest he accase me of taking a particular year, and taking those averages we have this result: At the time that Canada was oommeneing her national existence, the taxation of the United States was $10 per head, as nearly as may be. We find, Sir, that the taxation of the United States is now a mere fraction over |7 per head. We find that in seventeen years the taxation of the United States has sunk from ^^10 to $7 per head— has sunk from about $50 per family to $35 per family- and in the same seventeen years the taxation of Canada has risen from $4 per head, to $9 a head, and from about enditure is now more than $7 per head. So that, while the irnited Stntes have reduced their burthen nearly one-half, Canada's burthen has been nearly doubled in pro- portion to her population. These are Forious considerations-) and noao the less serious because, hi lOrapjiring the case of England I find that Cuuiitry, seventeen years ago, the taxation per head amount- ed to £2 5s, 8d., while the taxiitiou now n Ls about e-J Dh. por heul. So that while r^ Canada iLo bc^u adding io ou -^ toxation at the mto of about «5 i>er W England was contented with an addition of some 80 cents i>er head. Now, S^ can any man say that U.is is a satisf ,c^^ showing ] V^n can any uiau sa> . K • o^ ingthe cu'cunistances of the bnited "tites, knowing that Uicy had then ^ust ..merged from a great civil war, thai they nre stiU burthcned ^itl\^'f Z^^'^^f ' amounting, if I remember right to $0V 000,000 last year for pensions alone. ■ ^tan a,nv man say that it is a satislactoiv tJ^r" thi people of Can-aa. to nncl that the record, as between us and them is so exc'ssivoly agaiiwt us as appeaih Urn these hgures. It. i« not a pl^mn ttiin^ tor mo to say— I have no doubt it^: not a pleasant thing for hon. Inileman to Lar---but I have yet o Team that it Ls our duty to- conceal the facts of the cas.>. because they gf'^t« un- pleasantly on the eai^ of hon f nt lemen opposite, More, Sir, when did all this Si'Biditoccurinincr«usese^'enb^^; distributed over the seventeen >eai-s. Not so, Mr. Si>eaker. When Increases Occorrpd. Thes. incre^ises aU occurred in two periods, one l>eginning m 18o^ and t r minatiig in 1874, and the other begin, nin- in 1870, aild extending down to reVcsont time. In those two periods .11 the increases I l^'^ve referred to a^ rivfd-in those two periods, and those ilono Sir, in ye^rs gone by, men were j •^ont'toulk of the ignorant impatience ; . r taxation : now-a-days it would bt. in- \ toitoly more to the purpose if our people ^;^%uadod to lay aside thcnj^ig.!^^^ ranta^iuiescence m taxation I'^-f^^^ if you consid-r, you wil trnd that these ^ ^„. increases ot uivation are enormous increawca « f„f„r« fr^u-ht with great dangers to the future Avelfare of this Dominion. tost to Worklugmon. T remember well when my hon. friend /MnSenzie) was Premier, we con- «^e;eat^iBmat4r,andwchadtooome to the conclusion that every doUarof ^ necessary expenditure meant, ^ti o^^ or another, a dollar taken out of the poclcet of some man who wus earm^ Ces and therefore that every million lolCaxlded to the -F-ditu- -^ practically, that one day s ^^^ ™ Lken from every -,^'^-am«r th^o^g^out the Douunioiu And if as 1 t>eiievi > that be a true and fair statement, let Ihe Hon' bear uv mind that in adding to $22,000,000 to the ^-^-n ^ n^nadain bevt^nU-.'U years, about twenty "'swages, to all interns and^pur- i„,se8 have been substract^^ Irom tne ^ ^e-earninc. ela^sen of the Dominion, IndlC hat this is a r..a*.n and a i i«, why my hon. f-nd ^ay« oDDOscd why he always hc-aitated, to aSnotheb.Ueusofthev^ple,toadd Tthe already .norn.>us t-^ation^ tb • peoplMvf Canada, ^o^' ^"^'.^^^C^^ the condition of the, wage-earmng classes nOaoiada to-day is ^^^ f od 1 ^7 ^^^^ ifommros uniavoumbly with the concU tionot-thinu. in England. In KngW !:th.hou.g..ntkruankuow^or a^b ouuht to know, «u-e is taken -'^ P^^vi . Seven-xnanwlioc«.-nsl^han,.^ should be est h.^tures of th. i^4lishllsc.l system that It IS 0^^ our taxes are so arrarged thao ^J ^ ; more hoavUy on t^V-^'^f Ui so^of luSon to support tlioir familtos out oi K dally earnings than on any other ti i the community ; and press, next \ io them, on the groat l^^^f^f ^^^ jr^S;.!:^^^ country r-dmo^^ ht t^^same .lass' in other -n^^ They n.M-d more fuel, more food, he^r Ser; and all these things have b^n made dearer bv the policy of_ the hon. Gentleman. 1 doubt, tf to-day in CW. vou cm point to aaiythiug that i*» really Taper Ln it is on the oOier sid.jof th. Atlande, exc<.>pt ^•^''^-'^";; '^r,::-;" Now. Wincert^npai^soft^^^ land in certain pai^-, -. -"' -;-^ r^ t^ if the hon. gentleman wants tc kno-» what I COffi ai)soli of ex( coHbt into t. .1 cort Oanac ito Jea year i IVuo, plead i our g< *-ay, ib is a I mor*ey tain tl ijatter >x>u ca out tak pie moi true un ;s izifini of whi expouei it*<}uirea 'jeiiUem •*Tore or doieesti( ^ hoii. ge] \ fact thai j applicati I ^^^ly whai I md I an |ity that |don mar Year or t^ in either to fail. |)osition- f r eJsewh fact; that ^la and fi fftrties to w offer, roone, or »;« access 3>Idw, as «id 1886, iileman'a i ptobabilit' rdirAg to sa )f un- teway of the irring nillion. meaui ^ wart ughout mt,let • adding ion of twenty- nd pur- :om the (minion, ., and a I always! ibed, to ), to add ,n. of tb-; say that Z classes say that ;he condi- Fiiigiand. or as he 3 providr. than, sfiy 50 a year >vill (mo iaxafcion. ; •es o€ tlie 80. Hen- ijjiey presK are allied ies out oiL stny other press, next icing clasvs. sen o£ this wsthat the r need more • cotwitries. food, betttvr have been jf the hon. 7 in Oanadii 'at is really ir side of the s of fliod B.Bd untry. Now, :c knoNT what ot cxcosiiiT'e taxat ^„'t • • ^ '"•' «Hibt,a.aharoTai : ^' V'^^' ^'■ j^uB irea^surj, b„t tlio amount paid t(. x>lca4 thafc he Jms saved the nee^^sitv nf ^r goxng into dof.t therebv^ vJ'fa r moucy It there js one thmo- more oor l^'J^ -other, it is thi;"^'^^ .hater on what system tixatiouis hnied >^u^no. put into the IWmy witt' <^t taking out of tnc m-kers of the peo- -rue under an liom>.sfc revenue system it ^vpout? \l ^°"- ^^^^'^"^'-^^ iK the ' .. W^^^ ^loreover. 1 «ay. Sir, ( '^nada ^^•<}mres its ou^n capital, and 'the hon •^^xUeman mi.ht hat. kno^vn thatJfTt _.^re only from the faihire of his own doineatio io..n the other day. % tho •^nl W- ^ u^^!.^^ ^^^ ^^'^^ ^^il^'^i. Other -ipph<^ti0B3 had come in to him. Novv I 2 whatever his motives may havf b^n Li J ?® ^''"^'^ ^•'^'^ ^ ffo <>n the rx)n- If^iif''-''' ^-'^ comudttedahuge blunder t f^t"' W '"^^ '^"* ^^'^°' ^^ allowin 'it fc-^thTt H ' '? ''<>'^-^>r «^o^^ey, the mere l^laaoid failed, ib Buro to l>o u«ed by some ^rties to depreciate the Boctxriti.^"hers ino'or.^f'''^^""^''*^^^^--l<^^t at^cL^I K^T 'f "^ P*^'^^ ^« ^^J^^ it' * ^.^ccess when he did attempt to float it. m^imX'^'' exi>enditun for 1881 i ^jws stat.m.,M, that- J;;;:^/:;; ' M^^I 000,000 or thereabouts. .1 am not ^'^ to say what can \>e done no^. in the 13 ^uvr of ctUting down d^at expenditure Vol>Hbly ,teould b.^ ,.e'^ ^hat- ' 7/J^^ expenditure should have exoe<.dcj^82fi,000,OOOor -^25.500,0O0W I am perfecrtly certain that m^ honTfriend would have contrived to kip it \dtW„ that limit, which ifi only «2 'iOO OfS more than the hon. MimSr !f 't^'^ ear^n^.^'T ^''''' *«^ ^'^« '^^ t^ carry OntheCom-nment of Canada. And >"-, the proof IS thLs-that wherea.s my I.on. Inend. ^±on he went into offi^^ foun,,^^j,^,I, to spend ^Oot 000 a year, and had to meet a ho^t of great and sudden demands a^c^^^aSng an r^^S^o'^'r %'''' -Penditure'^cS- *w,W)0,000, he did It without addin- more, in the long run, than ^L'50,000 t<^ went m. Do not say that my hon. friend beside mc had no great pubhu works to carry on. My hon. fri'end carri^ on .>huu,ter of Railways or his colleagues- did. As I .said the other night, ho has no need to dread a comparin^n WLfen the works done under his auspice and th08.; done under theauspices of the hon Minister of Railwuy.s. "^Sir, if " ^ ^?ont»eman wants the details ' of X ^1 penditures which were incurred by us after the yea,- 1874, I am pre^^aiS ^ ?^s^b^^ /^°^>h-^ n/hol..Snd «mkmg fund alon^ on account of the great public works caused by the enUle ments of his predecessors, ^.^1,100^^0 IslS f^"^"'^^'^- -^ Prince Fxlward Wand, in eon.s,xj«ence of th(, terms of the Ireaty, about $300,000 ; for thePos Oflia. i)epartmeut , .$.S30,000 ; and for the Supreme Court, .^50,000; rl^aking in tiontl n ^ '' """ J-^'' ^^-' ^^^'W« addi- tional to the expenditme whiol. h" the responsibility ofall this Thehon.gmt^e. man would have us believe that b> hm policyot ccllecting together many thoiv Lnds of poor workingmen in the cities of to Dominion, he andhis OoverBment are not responsible, because, as always hap- Ins in these cases, when trade slackens ihese poor people are thrown on the streets or comi>elled to work out for half waC Sir, I say the hon. g3utleman is Tes^nsible. I say the du^ct rosul of his policy lias been to gather together these men, and to keep them m such a wsition, that a trilling reversal may Ix^^e ^hem to want, and throw them on the community tor supix)rt. I say He ^ responsible for it ; and ^s we are on th . question of Protection, I s^y that tlie hon. gentleman, if he be real y and sincerely an advocate of Protection ought I have taken a great deal more .,J^„ ..^A nai- than he has dmie to extend Protection, not merely to the ucii manufacturer, but to the workingn^ whom he employs. I say that Im con- duct with respect to the Facton^« f,^^ alone shows how little he c^red lor the poor employee when the interests of the ^°;ioyol inflicted with those of the ricli" employer. Protection for Workingmen. He had the experience of t^« ^^^ ^tqtfts and the experience of lliUglana S: Mm, he had L ..poi. of hiBOW. Comrrlssioners to guide him ; ^^^^^ right well that many of the pereon^ emploved in manufactories >vere^«^/^J^ dealt with, as they always will l^unkas the Gover,iment steps m t« «* Jhat women and children, at any rate are not preretion and depression, mvariawi y Out {■' -, inhiry to the workiugman and the em- pliyee alike. The hon. gentleman has Lensified the evil. It is quite true hat even when you have the whole world for 15 i oi tlw , of the Btt. 3 United Bngland ; his own he knew 3 persona i unfairly be, unle&s »ti8 that :e, are not : strength. iuction of jcended to irst read- intended creatures, orkingmeu I the policy ig here, at oumging to with them, otectiou at protect Ibe ion quite as t allow hiH upetitora to lie expense re employed riea of this eman dwelt of the spoci- l thought he , we had long HO surely as :ies, 80 surely dvantageH on ai-e on the tliose indiia- le inevitable or any men , ia to bring Dital than is t of which is ud de[)resHion, and the em- sntleman has iviite true that bole world for a market, depressions will at oimea occur, but when you try to stimulate product- ion by artificial means in a small commun- ity, disasters must happen, and probably vdll happen at a very early date, as they have in this particular instance. 1 repeat, in all this, the hon. gentleman has done great injury to the great mass of the manufacturers themselves; I repeat, that that the manufacturers of Canada are hurt when capital is destroyed or locked up, and they are still more hurt when tha great bulk of the i>eopIe, who form their customers, are impoverLshed. Both those results Jiave accrued from the policy of the hon. gentleman. Now, I observe that the hon. gentleman spoke on this occasion with very much bated breatli, as to the magnitieeut suqiius at his disposal. But I cannot quite agree with him even in what ho said on tliat question. He claimed he had $7,- 000,000 last year from the increase of ordinary revenue over expenditu'e, and $1,00* ',000 of additional surplus from the sales of land in the North- West ; but I failed to hear the hon. gentlemsn say one word of the 1 600, 000 or thereabouts which he had spent and charged to capital account for surveys in the North -West, in connection with those very lands. Sorely, if he claims ,11,000,000 as ad- ditional surplus on the o e side, although it properly b<;long8 to capital account, he should deduct the |606,000 on the other Hide, which are charged to capital jxceount for the survey of these very lands, a por- tion of which he has sold. The hon. gentleman's calculations may be correct or they may not, as regards the probab'e surplus at the end of the year, but one tbing is clear, that whereas last yrar he had a surplus of very nearly $1,9,'37,000 on the 20fch February, he now has an at> p irent surplus of B'^'iOjOOO, and no more. Now, if that goes -al i*3 it appears to be going on, during the next few mouths, it is, to say tbe least, a mtter of doubt whether the hon. gentleman will have any surplus at a!L I'oihans it is as well he should not. It is clear the hon. gentleman's 8uii)lui tempted him into very unnoo-essary espendituTe and to incur very undue liabilities ; but I point out the fact to the House, because it is right they should understand how very seriously the revenue is being reduced and the expenditure is being incieased Within the past six or seven months, of which alone we can syteak with perfect knowledge. Now I come to a question of the very gravest moment, to which the Government have on various occasionB called attention. It is a question on on which there is a vet j great conflict of statement between our own authorities and those of the United States. I might argue justly that Ministers would bo estopped, at least some of them, from questioning the authorities of the CTniied States statistics, because they invariably used them, and used them rather harshly, against ourselves, when we were in their place, but I do not mgHixd that as a matter of much imjwrtance. What I do regard as of iutinite moment, is to ascertain the actual facts of the case; arid I propose to do so, not from any Americim statisiics bat ft-om our own Census returns andfroui our own varioua municipal returns. I have stated that one cause of the depressed condition of this country arose, in myjudgment^ 6x)m the fact that there had Ix^en a very large emigmtion indelut<,>ly ascertain all the facts as to all the Provmct», but we. can to a veiy considerable extent, at any rate, as regards the Piovince of Ontario, and I propose to do so. There we have got a tolerable Jicourate system of muni- cipal returns, and we find from tho,se, when ])ro[>erly chc«l:c;il, that although wecaunut determine ubsoluttily the pop- ulation at any oii(5 moimuit, we can deter- mine, witti very considerable accuracy, tlie relative inci'Ciiso or dixsreasfj in the population, provided we apply ttie proper chef.ks, hv tAkiii'"' imt oa!v t,h« nn/r»Kct to this point In 1^78, ^s e find there ^vero m Sntario, \^t.-een ih. ages of five and ^x- f^vn .192,:i60 children; in 1871>, 'i''V*f;' 'i im'then. were 489,91i1 in 1^81, i84,2U; in 1882. 480,817; and ^ 188.. aboii tho samo num^..c-r. Wo <.nd hat reported in a<5tual attendance ni; school th^a wore 407,llKK m 18.8; m 18. .♦, .I67,8ir.; in 1880, 46l.:U.5;m 1B8L r.iV $2G in 1882, 4:,7,1TK. Now I call tht ..jureful attention of the House to this fa.>t, that, a.- r «iid before, I do d.) not contend that tLoso figavcs are uV.flolntel.y correct, , but Icontend that they are .rc-lativoly cor- | m't It is impossible tosupiK)sethat8(--vcratoly conspircMi together to falsify returns, and wo are justihed therefore in assuming those are relativ(dy correct, What do they prove? J hey vrovo that hv the test of the children of Ihat ag. aiad by the schoo test, which aifbrds a necessary and useful check the «chf>ol population of- <->"J-^nO' ^.^'^F^ ^^!;^ to 1882, had d.'creased by 10,(uO. Mr, That is i^ ^■en• serious matter. Here we liave, lii-st of all, a positive, absdluteloss, uscertained in that i\ishion. \\e ha\e, U'-idc.^ that, the loss of the natural in- orea&Q of the populatlcu, ^hich is con- siderable, and which 1 shall presently .onipute, A\e have also th(^ disphu.^ me^it bv immigration, b> it large or small, ^►ecaua'i it is .(uite cHear that tin- popu- latioti having ab.^olutely decreased, illtae iveopla v-hocame lu there as luimtgrauts bave Iv.u absorbed and havt^ tailed to wiaJie up the less. Now, Sir w'o AVill see, for these five years, what that •uaountsto. 1 ilud that the natural m- oi-eiuse of Ontario, which possessed a .HDpulation oluenily 2,000,000, acTordtng !o » verv rule and uc-cordiug to all the iaiormatiou I eoidd get, ought not to have bi^en less than 10,000 a year. \Vbab the immigration into the Province iiiayb-: ean or>'y estimated, '^>-'.n if there iK) anv truth whatover m tho Btatistu.^ furnished us by the Department of Agn culture, it cannot have been leas than ZU,- 000 in each of those years, So, if you add together, first of all, the positive, ascer- tained loss, us ev-idenco fiom the school regi>,tei-fl, and the loss of the . "f ^^"^„"^,: c.reasy displacement measured by the number of the immi- ..rants who came m from year i^ year Jouwill find that, in 1^79, we lost abou h OOO; in 1 880 we lost 80,00; in 1881 a.^ Bumy, in 1882. I f ™ J^ W^ ^--^^'J (smaller number, about b UOU, ana probably, as far as we can now a.soe,rtam, Lbout 6{>.000 in 1883. bir, that makes atotal loss, i*u^uding these three «iu^s — because evervV«Ddy, I thmk, will admit that, if tlie school population haa really decreas^^ 10.000, the total population, of which the s,;hool population forms a 'ourtli, must also have decreased V.y four times that number —as , total loss for Ontario in these &yo years of about ^.OI^OOO. Now, it is quite tnie ' that a considerable portion of these peoplt' have gone to Manitoba. On looking at the returns brought down by the Minister of .Vgriculttrre, I find that up to April, 1881: there were 19,000 persona in Manitoba and the North- West bom ui Ontario ; by the same returns 1 find that, in 1881, although that is of course la chidins thn-e months prior to 1st ot Vpril 'and, therefore, a little too ninch, 18,000 appeared to have come from Ontario; iA 1882, :;2,000-^I atntaking liH own statistics— and, m 18tt^, ^*^ \ believe about 25,000; in all, not quit^ i 100,00(» of these people may be counted ! as having left Ontario and settled m Manitoba and the North-AVest Now, I grxak for Ontario alone. I have no • vr.tensions to speak for the depopulation, if it do exist, iu t^uebec or m the Man- time frovinces, but p; rhaps the hon. Minister of Vublic ^\'o^ks, who fo.mtrly declaiHxl that it was a matter of the Ln-eutcst possible import^tnce to repatriate- ins countrymen, v-viiu Np-a..v .... - - depopulation of Quebec. I hoard an hon. cvelit! nan, I do not know whether ho is in H. ■ HotLS'' or not. the member ior i 1 17 ktistica fAgri an 20,- ►u add' ascer* school u-al in- •oment . immi- o year, t about L881 a.^v siiy, a , and ^jertain, ; makes > causes [1 admit a really ulation, forms H 3creased jr - — aa elieved that 600,000 or 600,000 people had gone from Quebec to the United States. I would fain hope that that is altogether too large an esti- •ma,t)e ; but, if we are to believe that gentleman, if we are to believe the Minister of Public Works, if we are to believe the dignitaries of the church who have made it a matter of comment in their pastorals, a serious depopulation has been going on from Quebec likewise. What would my friends from the Mari- time Provinces say ] What •" would the gentlemen from New Brunswick and Prince Edward and Nova Scotia say ? Do they or do they not believe that ■numbers of their fellow-countrymen have left those Provinces within the last few years ? I leave it for them to speak. I speak only ot what I know ; I speak only of what I have reasonable grounds for believing ; I pay no attention to foreign statistics; I am basing myself exclusively on our own Census and on the municipal and the school returns of the Province for Ontario. Now, Sir, there are collateral proofs of this fact, and proofs which can hardly be disregarded. I have here a return of nearly 200 towns and villages throughout Ontario. It is perfectly noto- rious that, during the last ten years, our •t<>wns and villages grew much more than ihe rural districts in which they stood, as a rule. Every man who looks at the "Census knows that. Now, what do these returns show 1 They extend over five years also, from 1878-79 to 1883. Weil, they show these rather remarkable iskCts, that, out of 118 villages in Ontario, averaging about 1,000 souls, 79 were stationaiy or retrograde, and of the remainder, several had not increased as much as the natural incre-ase would war- rant. Of sixty-four towns, averaging 3.000, forty-one were stationary or retro- grade, and several of the remainder had not increased as much as the natural increase would warrant. It is quite im- pc&.sibie for us to diHrcgai'd plain, patent iacts like these, which every hon. gentle- Hxiua who chooses to examine the munici- pal statistics of Ontario can ascertain for himself, as I have done. Sut I will give one or two particular instances, which may impress the House more than these general statements. The other day, wish- ing to ascertain, as nearly as I could, the facts in this matter, I applied to the Mayor of the town of Goderich, the chief town of the constituency of my hon. friend behind me. In 1871, according to the Census, that town had a popula- tion of 8,954 ; in 1878, according to the municipal statistics, it had grown to 4,663 ; according to the last municipal statistics for 1888, supplied me by flie Mayor of that town, it had shrunk iu five years from 4,663 to 3,818. Sir, I say that it ^*r. a serious matter. Why, the county you yourself repie- sent would furnish another illustra- tion. In 1871, the county of Fron- tenac, according to the Census, contained 16,300 people ; ihe natural increase ought to have brought that up' to 20,000 eouls, but, the last Census shows that, instead of 20,000, the population of Frontenac was 14,993. Instead of gain- ing 3,000, as it should, ii: had lost about 1,400 souls. For further proof I caused the school population of eight townshipg in my hon. friend's constituency and my own to be carefully gone over and here again I must pray the indulgence of the House, because the subject is one o. first-rate importance. I find that, in the space of six years, the school po^^ulaticn of those eight townships had gone m^wti as follows : — Beginning Skt 10,180, it ha. portion of thosewho leave U8,asevery man of us can see who chooses to ^nspect an ordinary train leaving Canada, consists of men in their prime. In the next place, it is notably the fact, as far ad Ontario Ls concerned, that almost all the men who leave Caaada to seek homes elsewhere are possessed of very ccnsider- able capital. I believe, Sir, if a fair average was taken, it would be fpund that each one takes in money, au^^ money's worth, nearer |2,000 than $1,000 from this country. 1 know in the few cases concerning which I have taken the t)-ouble to ascertahi the facts, I have been astonished at the enoi-mous amount of capi- tal which was being removed from Canade to seek investment elsewhere. Now, Sir, what is the value of these men as com- pared with that of ordinary immigrant * Sir, I have no prejudice against immi- grants. We can welcome all good, in- dustrious immigrants, although we do not wish to see immigrants coming h«e unless they are prepared to better their condition ; but. Sir, I say,' in no spirit; of prejudice, that one Ontario farmer, one Canadian farmer, possessed of reasonable capital, is worth, either as a tax-payer or as a producer, any half dozen foreign iy., .«''•»•""+'" wVir> iTirt.v fiomfi ini^ tKi^i I scorn to put a money valwe couutiymeu, although tbd O' country, on my 1» in fareiga to this American people 'are in tfce hnbit of call- ing ever}' able-bodied imniignint worth f 1 ,000 to the public ; but, Sir, I decline to rate our brethren at so much a head. Htill J do say thtt those men who leave C*anada in that way take away with thein, and take from us, a nio:-,t itnpoi'tant element of national wealth and a most enormous amount of thecapital of Canada. And these gentlemen want to aiTogate to themselves that they are the only friends of Canada. Their policy, they toll us, is a policy of" Canada for the Canadians." What are the facts, as disclosed in the United States Census for 1881 ? Why, air, they show that 700,000 Canadians wea^ then found in the United States, '.md I believe that if the census were taken to4ay, it would .show the number of Can- adians in the United States to be nearer 1,000,000 than 700,000. Sir, it is no ■wonder the people of Dakota have a high opinion of the Premier, and are fond of declaring that Dakota needs no land agent while the present Premier of the Dominion has control of affairs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not disposed to deny that this has gone on for a long time, l)ut I think it haa gone on with a vastly accelerated ratio since the hOn. gentlemen came into }»ower and i'ltroduced their present policy. Our own Census, as I have «hown, proves conclusively, fir-t cf all, that the foreign immigi-ants who come liere do not stay here, and next, that the total increase of the population hai-dly equals the nitural increa.se to which we are entitled. More, what is true of On- tario is true also— I do not want in the least degree to disguise the fctct — of the New England States, and to a great ex- tent it is true of the State of New York. ButjSir, there is this all-important dif- ference : when the New £nglandcr, or the New YoHccr, quits his parental home and goes Wt.-;t ward, he iloe.s not cease to b3 a citizen of tlu' United States, and to contribute to its wealth and in)portance ; but when our people leave tbe older Provinces, the majority of tbem, I am sorry to say, do not " d homes within tiie Dominion, but th^:,^ go to ^weli the HDportance, the strength and Ifhe wealth of the people of the United States . A few weeko ago, I wis convci-sing with h very intelligent gentlenuin, thc! editor cf a large newi-papi'i in the western part of Canada, and I asked that gentleman to examine his list and tell me how man}- subscribers he then had in the Unite*.? States. After examining his list, Le- showed" me that he had 800 subsoiibers who had formerly been inhabitants of Canadd, but whn, within the last two or three years, had become inhabitants of the United States. Mr. SPROULE. Please name the l)aper. Sir. RICHARD J. CARTWRKJHr. Tlie iiame of the paper is the Ej-posif.oi\ of Stiaforth, and if the hon gentle- man chooses to go and visit the- oditor, I have no doubt be will show him his ILst. Now, T do not deny that the drain of ca}>ital may, to a ccrtiiirk extent, be balanced. It ia true we get back, in the shape cf immigrants and the capital theybri)ig, a certain i)oroentage., but it is a niost disadvantageous in exchange to us. We gi\^e the very Ive.st,. the prime of our population, and we do not by ai^y means get the best, nor Is it at all a prime population that con)es to ns* Sir, if it be true, that of 342,000 immigr- ants who came within the last decade, onl v 90,000 at the outside, have remaineJ wit'b us — and I see no answer to these .statistics. that I have taken from the rt turns made by the DepaHcaent of Agi-iculture and from the Census — if that be true, what. impolicy it is on our part to bring these people here, to pay their passage, to ha^•e them come to Canada, and then leave Canada and report that they could not make a living li.ro, and had to go else- where. Sir, I s;ay our whole immigni- tioii systeai requires revising, from \\\.& top to the bottom, and I believe it would be better for us all if wo a lopted the ])olicy of the Unite! St.l'.s. D"[r«so ia- formation if you will, but cerLuiuly do not bring people he"C, as w- have beeu- doing, to compete with nvr own labour- ers in many of the walks of life, when» in all probability, three-fourths of then^ will find their way to the United States; 2« and send word to their friends and rela- tives in England that they hod tried Can- ada and could not obtain a living in it. "Well, Sir, all this was bad enough in past times. But in past times there was an excuse for it. In pawt times, it was true, we had not practically at oar dis- posal a great quantity of land, on which those people might be settled. It is ut- terly inexcusable now. Sir, a few years | ago a most extraordinary opportunity j was presented to the Government of Canada. A Oreat Oi)portunity. It was one of those great opportunities which come but once in a century, and I may say, once in the lifetime of a nation It was an opportunity, given to those hon. gentlemen, by which they might have fully redeemed all their other errors and blunders, and they were neither few nor far between. I have never con- tended that the fiscal policy of a nation is more than one factor in its progress. I admit, frankly that such things have happened as that a prudent and econom- ical administration has been combined with a very bad fiscal system. I admit it is pos.sible we may have a good land policy and a bad fiscal system. Those hon. gentlemen a few years ago, came into office to find substantially all the essential work done for their hands. Thanks to the patient toil of my hon. friend beside ma (Mr. Mackenzie) for five years, one great avenue to the ISIorth- West was all but opened. Thanks, to do them justice, to^the enterprise and energy of the St. Paul and Manitoba Railway Company, another avenue had beenopened for some time. That magnificent coun- try was practically placed at their dis- posal. The people of Canada, and nota- bly the people of Ontario were most anxious to go there. All the pent-up energies of many years were seeking an nutlet. Every man who knows our people is aware that for years back we Lad been looking for such a field for energy and capital as the North- West then presented. The men were there, the money was there. Outside capital was really to m^ them to any i-easonable extent. Absolutely, all that WiW n^^:m- sary was to leave that country alone and le*. the people develop it. And, absolu- tely, they could not even do that. The very best settlers in the world were flow- ing into Manitoba. I never in all my life saw men so thoroughly capable of, and so well calculated for developing a country as the settlers who were going from Ontario to Manitoba in the early years of the hon. gentleman's Adminis- tration. I say they chose deliberately to ruin everything. I bay that was bad if done from ignorance ; if done from my other motive, it was an iniquitous breach of trust. Keqairemenii of the North- West What were the requirements of the North-WesfJ They were three. First,. the people needed cheap^ land;, second, chejp goods; and third, and most of all, cheap and abundant meana of transportation. How did hon. gentlev men supply tiiese wants 1 Do not hon. members know that eveiy vexatioue. obstacle and impediment that could be conceived in the way of land regulations was placed in the way of intending settlers ] Large tracts of land were with- held from settlers—the very tracts which the people desired to enter upon. Faith was broken with them in every possibte way ; their small capital was reduced lt>y heavy and excessive taxation, and aE opportunity of getting cheap transports^ tion, although the people were prepared to provide it at their own cost, was shut out. Two policies were possible. One was to construct a road as a Government road, run it cheaply for the first few years, so as barely to pay expenses, and ad.opt a liberal policy for side lines, a policy substantially the same as that which the hon. tnember for Bothwell (Mr MiUs proposed to introduce, and which would have contributed enormously to the whole- some development ot the North-West, if put in force either by those hon. gentie- j men or by the late rarliameut. Ther ' there was the other plan : to allow tht ' utmost freedom of competition, as was n the right, of the people of the North- West, provided the Governmert did not choose to construct the road and run it in the way I have descritjed. What did they do? They forbade all competition, and as soon as the Government road was con- Htracted, they handed it over to a private corporation ; they not only turned it over, but they resigned all control over it. No gixisser outrage was ever com- mitted on a fre« people than that which was committed by the Government and l^arliament of Canada in tlms intorforinir with the plainest rights of the people of t'he North- West. 1 say, moreover, that there never was such a case of sacrificing eadfi to means as in that act. What use )B the Canadian Pacific Railway to us ? Why should we be burdened with the pay- men* of $100,000,000 for it, but for the opportunity presented of providing homes for hundreds of thousands of our people who are asking then^ at our hands 1 What hon. gentlemen opposite have done haa been to deprive those people of the chance of settlement, to take away from them every possible inducement to go there. And the secondary results have been almost more important still. I re- member well the position of the country in 1880. At that time, all kinds of railway projects were in agitation, ano there was this remarkable feature about them. In old Canada it is not an easy task to devise railways which will prove profitable until after a long term of years. Very often the country opened up is of an inferior character and not likely to secure immediate settlernent But in the Nortfc-West it was scarcely possible for a ma^ of ordinary judgment to plan a railway which would not in all human prQbftbility have brought in a large num- ber of settlers and have become a reason- able source of profit to the promoters, within a short space of time. As I have said no better settlers could be imagined than those who were rushing in from Ontario. There was perfect readiness on tJie part of outside capitalists to co-oper- 0,1111 moiH^over, such bnirich hues as were proposed by the hon. member for Bothwell, when he was Minister of tiie Interior, would really have been the l>^at of all colonization schemes. The companies would not have beeu given, nor did f!tve hon. gentleman propose to allow them, absolute control of the land, ^ it wa< to have been retained under the control of the Government, and it would have been only profitable to the Company when they succeeded in placing actual settlers upon it. But all their projects w^re ])aralyzed by law. The right "ro construct such roads wjts taken away. What was the result? There wasaioncve a complete stom)age of the influx of thn best settlers ; tliey would not go to a countiy where their rights wei-e trampi«d on in that fashion. Capital that Rtiy>Mi ready to develope that country, which ite owners would have only been too happy to have invested in this manner, being thus debarred from its natural outlet, was ^lir- ected into other channels, and there' have been scenes in Manitoba -ind the North- West the like of which has scarcely been exceeded since the days of the South Sea Bubble. Moreover, al' the branch lines which might have been and would have been constructed were utterly abandoned. No man could ventare to build railways in face of the conditiona on which the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were entitled to build their line. The whole country was plunged into i state of discontent of which hon. gentle- men opposite are very far indeed fi'om having he^^ixi the last. Whiit Hiirht hsr« B«eii. Now, Sii', had they acted otherwise, h^ had they acted sensibly and prudeatty, had they allowed the people to do "wlji^t the people were only too ready to do toi- i-eabouts, of i)eople, strung along 1,000 miles of railway, we would have had, in ail human probability, 500,000 settlers in. Manifoba alone we would have had from 2000 to 3000 mi es of branch lines iuactive operation and we would have l)een able, in place of the miserable export we now have, to have exported, in all human probability at least 20,000,000 bushela of wheat, in this very ycjar, Sir, the ss Canadian Pacific Rnilway it«olf would 1 have had an irfiniU'ly lettfr clianco of | BuccGHH than it haH to-day. Tnstcad of its j Ixnng n conHy, » ha»udous and a doubtful ' experiment tliat railway with wuch a Province to draw from would hav«' stood : infinitely higher than it doos to day, with ' all the backing which tho hm. gentlrinan can give it. Now, Sir, it do9s not lio in tlie mouth of theso gontlenion to Hay that ' I exaggerate when I nnmrt that we might to-day, in 1881 or 1883, have had an ex- ; poi-t of 20,000,000 bushelH of grain from j that country. Did not the Minister of | RallwavB himself say that he hoped to i nee an export of OOO.OUO.OOO bushels of grain produced by the 100,000 settlors who would soon be settled in that ooimtry? I will not say that even | fJiM was an extravagant or an j extreme view of the case, but I do say i tibat but for the nu st unwise inteou in a position in all likelihood to have (export- ed the quantity of grain I named. It has been done elsewhere. I am not speak- ing of an impossibility, but of a thing which has been done again and agiiiu in the United States, close beside us. Now, it is well for us to consider how all this came about. I am sorry the First Min- istw is not here, because to a very con- aide^'able extent I hold him dii*ectly responsible for the miscarriage. 1 car- txdnly am not a blind idolater of the hon. gentleman, but I know 'him well, and I appreciate many of his qualities qtrite as nmch, perhaps, as hon. gentlemen opposite do. I admit that the hon. gen- tlemm isagoot; t' rnian, that he is a wire-puller of tl;e •'ntii. fcrfe, but I say that the hou, ;^( ■tlu\.vii) has never ei»!ier now or in rriurr years shown him- self to be a good and capable administra- tor, Out of his own mouth let me con- vict him. No man was louder or more OBtspoken in his condemnation of my hon. ftt6nd(Mr. Mackenzie) bacaxise be propos- ed at one and the sime time to act tw Premier of (Canada and to take charge of a Department of the Govoniment. Hut the lion, gentleman, when he entered otHoe, took into bin hands the charge of by far the mostimp-^rtanb Deparinient.Ot the Government, in conjun«;tion with the task of p'l-forming the duties of Pn^raior. Sir, he nny have att'ndfd to his duties as Premier, but no oh'-r en- denue is v^piired than his own declara- tion on the floor of the Houee. when he was endeavoming to pass the Estimat^ through Pavliamt'nt. to show that he did not iittend to the duties of bis Depart- ment Ajid in this very city^ as I ain informed, ti few months ago, when crofti* oxaminedon oath, he declared that thoug . he wiis sworn to disers«n.^ knowledge of that country. And I say it is a great misfortune to Canada, and : probably to hon. gentlemen opposite, that : the First Minister should hive, during : all that time, chosen to occupy the powi- i tion of Minister of the Interior. Now, ' Sir, one word as to th-* demands of the i neople of the Norcli-West. Sir, I am heartily in symr ','-^' them ; ^ tmy that those demana.^ uie au6.stantially just. I say that it is in the highest degi-ee in tlie interests of the Dominion of Canada that they should be conceded without de- lay. And as I liave done hoSoYe-, I warn the Government, and so far as I can, I warn the people of Oanv\da that unless they accede to' the just demands of the people of the North West, they will onliv havetheir own obstinacy and folly tothank for it, if the day shouldcjuie, though I hof^ i it never m'^y, when Canada may lose the I North- West , which it has so persiitenttj.- w .'kscoimigfi, . Hir. I utterly ropudiaU.. tlio a«lea tliaL tlio poople of the North- W.-st .^ro uiuUn- any ol)li«ation or co,M,,!i,„^nt to tlui jxioplt, or the l^rtrliurnent of Canada On tho coiitmry, I fcuy the Purliamont uul Oovm-nirMUit of Canada have most ,i;nevoii.slyop{,r(<.>,.sf-dand luultruntod the /pooplo ot the N -rth \Vo8t. Xow Sir it •"ay he tlmt the lock-up of capital then, wthosmallefit injury which Cunuda has 5«UHtaniod Mr. WHITE (Card well). Will the bon. gentleman permit u»e to mk liim to atate what those ju.st clairnHof the North- West are. Sir RICH ARD CARTWRIGHT I mil tell the hon. gentleman. I say that She tyrannical monoi>oly should bo al>ol fished ; that reasonable and fair, and just .and regulations bhould be given and a*^ted upon, and not changed from day to lay aad from hour to hour, at the caprice oi a Miimter at Otcaw;^ who knowd and ''^J^^^^ nothing about tlie intereHta of that couutry, who has never eondoHCPnded «> set his foot tlicre-I mean, of '-;onr«e, the late Minister of the Tnterior-^ who never even condescended to go aa far west as Chicago, who never, I believe, has put hi.s foot on prairie soil m his life, either in Canada or anywhere •ft'tto. If hon. gentlemen want to know ttore of these demands ht them look at what the North-West council, nominees, loany ot them of che hon. gentleman, as m what the claims of the North- West on ibe people of Ciinac-a are. I was stating, i •^ir, that perhaps the lock-up of capital w^ i the smallesij^injury, but tliat is great enough. Few of us perhai>s know how ' widespread has been the desire of the i if*ople of Ontario, in particular, to acquire I property in the North- West. I doubt if ' you could find a single hamlet in which 5.here are not a considerable number of ptx)plo who have some monev in the North West. I was at i>ains at Winnipeg and Joronto, and elsewhere, to make a number M enquiries as to the amount of capital iooked up thei-e, and I believe I am largely within the mark in saying tJiat ■ja all human probabiUty, more thSn $io' 'Cv>0,000, within Uio last thi'ee or four ; years, have beon lock.yl up in the North. j W08t. I do not say that all that rnoiwy 18 lost, though no doubt a good deal of it hm beoh lo.t; but I say that it is locked up and hxed, and that to all intents and purposositislockedup to the people ©f Canada for the time being, and, therefore , one coot iderable cause cf the stringouoy and depression which, as I contend; doi I unc'oubtodlye.xisthero now. Moreover. 1 «ay the Ucuso should not supiHwe (bat It IS M easy to undo the evil wy hava done as to do it. Seed^TInio throwu Ana/. Sir, tlie seed time h.w been throini away, and years must elapse before vm hnd onrse'ves in one half as favoun*bJ« a IK)sition for developing the North- Went I as we were in a few years ago. Tke ; money is gone or looked up a« i have I said- the men have gone too, which ia ; woi-se. Where Oar People go. Arid if hon. gentlemen want to kaow- i where they have gone, I can teit them where part of them have gone : Let them go to northern Dakota land they wiU find that in o«o whole division of that State, about IdO : miles m length by 60 miles in denth nme-tenths of the population in thai : district are composed of Canadians, a vevr large number of who-n, I grieve to sa^ went U> Manitoba lirst, and afterwarS I crossed the border. Sir, if hon. genlle- ' men want to know what that means, I ; say that the a-ea I have described wouW equal one-half of the whole western tenin- siila of Ontario. Draw a line frtiiu loronto through London to Lake Huron and all the country south of that line including twenty-three of the best Ridingi ot Canada^n area equalling the counS of Lssex, Kent, Lambton, Bothwell, th« Elgins, the Norfolks, the Middlesexes, Welland, Haldimand, the W^entworthft the Brants, the Oxfords, Monk, Linooln" u "L*^^ Peel, wouldbarely equal the territory of Northern Dakota, which is now occupied by Canadians who sonaJlt homes in Manitoba ana— thanks to ^ !>t .01. y of hon. gentlemen ^PP^^i^''-^^ LJe to find themthem Sjr I.aul th*re was also another loss. J:he hon. IcPtlemau has added -intentionally or -'^--but he he.s added krgely, despite ;^hathemay say to the contrai^, to the ot of living m this country. The hon. aentleman knows-if he tries U> re rencb r^iJl soon find out if he does not know 1-T.hat it is very b« d, indeeu, for either aa,tions or indiviauals, who have become .c..st«m..l to a certain style of oxpend - T,ur«, to retiench that exi>onditura bii, l^y any wise statesman to-day would «hu;, as he would shun poison, any legis- 'a4; which would tend to increase he .eaith of the few at the expense of the -.mcoverishment of the many. I s-^y that ,th..^ is no greater danger, tvohtical^ ■«t^..king, confronting society than the ;^^p^gatioB of large fortunes in .ndivMlmU W-nds; and the hon. gentlemai., it he Ls any attention to the movements ot i.a» . .*iv Vnnws or 0U£cht to ourrent thought, knows, u , kTiCW that I speak the truth i say that :""C o*ef T »ay it justifies «;,.3ali™. We, in Cana.1. " &» y-- j,^ it we hail not great wealth, had :i ;xceedingly fair dktribut.o. of what *'fa,!th we had. For Wh»t MldlBterB tre B«si>onsible. 1'ne hon. gentleman's policy hius con^ ;,.;Xd lai^ly to alter that c.naitk>naf; ifa...gs, and to cause this country to ap- , or<,x"mate the very condition m the O d Crld which has led so many people to , :.^ve the Old World and seek a home on , u.i. side of the Atlantic. The hon^ ..e:;tleman can show no sin^'" msttuce Ix^vwhere, in waich huge fortunes exis ,/which thei-e is not intense poverty at t,W other end of the scale. Now, let us ,e. what the hon. gentlemen opp^ite can ;^hTld responsible for. For the poor iia,-.est thev arenoUespoiisible m cue ^^ ina.smuch they certHiniy couid ^01 aveit i ; although I say they are re- °^o^«^*^^'?^''''PP«site, as the statements of 1879 and 1880 show, wholly failed to atlordarevenueuntilthatrevivaltookplace 1 say further— if, instead of having re- course to a comparison of my hon. friend's Administration in difficult times, with theu- Administi-ation in prosperous times hon. gentlemen opposite compare their Administration in a time at all approach- mg the stringency we had to face, my hon tnend has not the faintest cause to fear a comparison of his Administration with the Administration of Sir John A. Mac- dnnald m former years of stringency, ^^ore, feir— I say that our policy prevailed the taxes and the expenditure of the coun- try would have been many millions, a year less to-day than they are now, and the taxation would have been infinitely more fairly levied. I say. as I have said ^ before, that had the people been permit- i t^, as we would have permitted them, to ' nse the great advantages which presented '• thenselvesin Manitoba, that Province ^ to-day would have contained half a mil^ lion of prasperous and contemted Settlers, msteadof beingas the hon. gentleman well knows a mass of discontent. I sav tiere would have been no tyrannica'l monopolies; and although there would have I ->n undoubtedly a considerable re- moval from Ontario, that would have gone to swell the population of our coun- wy, and not the population of the United States. Now, Sir, in all this I am not ciaimmg very much. I am only claim- ing that afiairs would have been admin- istered with reasonable prudence, and reaf^nable economy, a ad reasonable dis- cretion; and I say, that as much as could i bave been done in Manitoba, has ! been done agaiii and again in the United ^ States. Now, Sir, I do not want, as the I bon. gentlemen did, to enter on the { realm of nrnnliA^w T oyvi »>«* — :__ j.- ! venture on any pi-edictions. But I may j-ecall the past. I may recaU the fact that, in 1873, under some- ' ■w^hat sitoilar circumstances, the hon. j gentleman thought there wa-s a long career I j of prosperity awaiting us ;and I may recafJ'' I to him the fact thai, scarcely were %e I words out of his mouth, as scarcely wer^' I the words out of his month last vear, before the fair prospect was overcloudefi. : Now, Sir, if the hon. gentleman ho,. * ; perKKl of commercial difficulty before him —though I trust he will not be called upon to face any such commercial dfsa?- ter as overtook the country durin<^ th^ Administration of my hon. tViend— I :i»& him, and 1 ask the House, how he is pr^. pared to meet it. Sir, our .-esour-^es have been dissipated, while our liabilities have been indefinitely increased. If- >,s quiet on the cards, if the hon. gentleman's own policy should be carried out, and our imports should be reduced to the level ^{ nl^'^''^\^^''^ instead of having $;50,0U0 - 000 or $81,000,000 to rely on! ho migh^ S?7 nnn nnn """"iT^ ^ $26,000,000 or ^7,000,000; while at the same time ^^ , hasswollen his expenditure to such afigure I that there isscarcely any rensonablegronncf i^on^^ri"^ *^^^ " •^^ ^e reduced below ; $30,000,000 or $31,000,000. Now ^e have to confront, not only this grie^oo^ taxtation, but an absolute reduction ^ • I and there is this difference, at any mte between the trouble which may overtake' , us now and tlie trouble which overtooi^ ! us m 1874, that although it may be tt-ie . that in both cases something was duf- to the extravagance of the people themseUr^ though more is due, I think, to unavoid- 1 able misfortunes, which could not by %nv ! po&sibihty be foreseen or j^re vented', ^n^r^ in the present instance when there 'hairf been no disasters of any i-eal imi>ortan».-e we have nothing to thank but our o^n wilful imprudence for the {wsition we x^ in to-day. We have nothing to th^ini- but our own folly if the advantages of *>ur position have been thrown away and prove insufficient to save us from sprioog reverses. Now, if lam to sum up nfae iosseg we have sustained, I feel ^m^ difficulty m doing it. I believe th»^ ex- cessive taxation to which the hon. oenfi^- man has subjected this country, h'as m- yolved a loss of not less than $50,000,0'^' m the course of the last five year^ • T 26 Mieve that the locking up of capitel m . mftnufactnres has involved a loss of not i less than $10,000,000, and the locking ; up of capital in the North-West a loss of not 1696 than $20,000,1)00. As to the ! losa we have sustained by the depletion of our population and the amount ot capital withdraNvn from Cauada to pro- vide Canadians with homes in the Tjnited SUtes, that, I confess, I almost hesitate to compute. I know it to be very large and vastly in excess of all we have re- oeived from any immigration into this country, but how large it is, it is almost impossible for me or anybody else to calculate now. The hon gentleman, besides by iuvolviug us, as he has, m an annual expenditure of not less than i^.^O- 000,000 a ye^r, has unjustly and im- proierlv added $5,000,000 to our annual expenditure. Let him capitalize that at 4 per cent, and see what amount that will represent. I say nothing of the additional millions which have not been paid into the Treasury but have been Sd in subsidizing certain industries m jr« country. I ^vill only allude to the hundreds of millions in money , and other subsidies whicj we have ; granted to a Company for the purpose of creating a railway monopoly through the ; North-West We do not know if the ?100.000,000 will do or what further dema:nds will be made. I have put down nothing for the last bad harv.^st, the , shrinkage of stocks, the loss we have in- ^ curredriccording tothe hon. gentleman s i principles, by the fact tlrnt our imi^rte ] Lceeiled our exports last year by .^30- 000,000 or .$34,000,000. If hon gentle- men opposite choose to add all these things together, they may compute for themselves ; they may compute what foui or five veai-s of those hon. gentlemen s Oovernmeut has cost the countiy. J^or mvself I will not hesitate to say that, looking at the thing all round, I believe wp would ha^ e done bettor u wo .)a» Wwef .9300,000,000 or ^400,000,000 aiid thrown the money into the sea or Uown it away in fireworks, as other nations have done, than allow these hon. gentlemen to control the Administration of this country. Whkt Plre Tern of Sir i. MMdoutWs AdmlftJ!^ tratlOD !!«« *►■«. Five years of their government ha^^ done OS much mischief to Canada, refei- tively to our jwpulation and resource:^, as four years of civil war did to the country and the people to the south of us But though we may measure the material injur>^ we have sustained how shall we estimate the moral .' I predicted in 1878, that if the ped to i the lips in corruption, but a Government ! which is corruption incarnate. AVhai have we seen within the last two weeks i within the last tew days 1 What have we ' seen within the course of the hist year or ' twol We have seen the whole representii- tion of the Great Province to which i ' belong so villainously gerrymandered that one halt of the electors are aUowed ' to return two-thirds of the repi-esentativ.^ f^ Parliament ; that one-sixth of the i people, to all intents and purposes, arv practically disfranchised, and we saw that ' done by virtue of a Census which it«elf i. a deliberate fi-aud and as to which you ran only assert with confidence one fact that it does not tnily state tlie number ot ij 27 <;t people who were in Canada on the day it pi^nded to be taken. We have seen worse than that. We have seen civil servants of Government, who were proven to have conspired to defraud, or who, at any mte, were proven to have aided in causing their employers a loss of hsndreds of thousands of dollars, restor- ed to office and the act defended on the floor of this House ; we have seen the judiciaiy prostituted by the appointment to a place on the Bench of a gentleman a^^ainst^ whom suits were impending which, if proven, would have sliown him to be utterly unlit, to take his seat on that very Bench before wliicli those actions Avere brought ; we have seen contracts for large sums of money given away in deliberate violation of the law and in a fashion that justified the idea that the men who got the contracts 'ere expected to render yeomans's service, by providing secret funds for electoral corruption, Ave have seen large tracts of valuable lands, the property of the public, secretly sold for about one-third of their value to the highest officials of the country, and not a word heard in reprobation from the gentlemen who used to be so loud ' in denouncing my hon friend (Mr, I Mackenzie) if it were discovered that he, j on any occasion,- had allowed a contract i to be give to one man for a few hundi-ed ' dollars more than it had been tendered ' for by another; we have seen two Prem- iers, one of' the Dominion and one the great Province of Quetet% unseated for shameless brib<;ry and curruption, com- mitted under circumstances wliich show that, if not legally, they were morally guilty of acting in connivance with the culprits; we have seen one great Province brought to the brink of tinancial ruin by the extravagance and corruption of those entrusted with its administration, to its great loss and the loss of tlie Avhole Dominion; we have seen other Provincas repeatedly deprived of their juf>i and legal rights, in definauce of the former public declarations of the very men who vetoed those laws passed by the Provin- cial Legislatures; we have seen a deliberate plot on the part of the Federal Govern- ment, by means I shall not chai-aetcrizf^^ j as they deserve to be characterized, tc^ I ' vertum the Local Gorervment in, \ Ontario. _ Sir, it failed, as it deserved to. . fail, and in this failure there is, perhaps., I the best grour.d for hope that the poople ^ of Canada and the people of Ontario aj-e I beginning to understand and appreciat-e . ^ the mode in which those hon. gentleraer^ , are carrying on the Government of this country. We have seen hundreds of thousands of the very choice and flowei- , of our fellow-couiitrymen driven into ; exile by the policy of these hon. gontle- , men; we have seen i?l 00,000,000, of ' public money given to build up a rail- way monopoly; we have seen the telieve there is enough sterling honesty and ability among our |)cople, if properiy organized, to restore an honest form of Government yet. But, although J do not despair, I am not over-confident T am; aware that mischief has been done which it will take generations to repair : I am aware that thi^ whole future of this, country has been A-ery heavily mortgaged indeed, and I do not cheat myself with the cheap philosophy that everything is bound to come all right somehow. Boasoii 28 does not tell us that, history does not tell lis that, f experience does not tell us that. It may be that things will come right, but they will not come right of their 0\m accord ; they will have to l^ set right, and it may be after a long and painful struggle. More, Sir ; I say it with regret, but I say that the people of Canada have deliberately retrograded ; I say that the people of Canada have not shown, as a whole, that regard for their liber^^v, that jealous watchfulness of men in ^)ower, that is the price that every free nation must I)ay for being properly governed. I say that to-day, in Canada to our shame and loss be it sjiid, public morality is painful- ly low and public opinion is painfully weak. Some hon. MEMBERS. Oh ! Sir RICHARD OARTW RIGHT. Yes ; I say it. I am not afraid to say it. Our duty is plain enough, and we mean to do it Our duty is not to shrink from telling unpleasant truths because we happen to stand at odds on this floor. We may be at the odds of one or two ; we are at the odds of one to two, although our numbers here do not at all represent fairly and honestly our true following in this country. But I say this, be the odds what they will, so as we have seats here, we will not cease to warn the people of their danger, we will not cease to call those hon, gentlemen to account, Sir, the hon. gentlemen have power indeed, they may have reco- urse to their old style of argument, they we we and cannot answer our arguments perhaps, but they can pass Acts of Parliament