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i^^ROVINCIAL POLITICS. 
 
 1890. 
 
 A SPEECH 
 
 DELIVERED BY 
 
 HON. OLIVER MO WAT 
 
 A TTORNE Y'GENERA L, 
 
 IN THE 
 
 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. 
 
 • MARCH 25th, 1890, 
 
 No. 4. 
 
 SUBJECT: 
 
 Proposed Amendmeuts to the Act relating to Separate 
 
 Schools. 
 
 Chpies of this Speech can he had by addressing W. T. R. Preston, 
 Secretary Froviiicial Reform Association, Toronto. 
 
 P.- 
 
 % 
 
 iE>ovot%Xo : 
 
 PRINTED BY HUNTER, ROSE & CO. 
 
 1890. 
 
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 ' 'W ^lci.ilB.jai»tkU ! iUi ' ^'».»< t ^ - -va-> ; u;;<i a;ii«nr,:., 
 
 1_ 
 
HON. MR. MO WAV'S 
 
 • * 
 
 IN THK 
 
 LEKJISLAIUYE ASSEMBLY, 
 
 MARCH 25th. \SSHi, 
 ON THE PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO IHE 
 
 SEPARATE SCHOOL ACT. 
 
 {/ 
 
 The following is a leport of the Attorney-Generars speech in 
 the Legislative Assembly, March 25th, 1890, on the amendments 
 proposed to the Separate School Act : 
 
 The Attorney- General began by alluding to the extreme deli- 
 cacy of the question that was under consideration. It related to 
 matters on which Roman Catholics and Protestants both felt 
 greatly interested, and on which their sympathies did not run 
 together. The members of this House belonged very largely to one 
 of these two denominations. In this House of ninety members 
 there were but eight Roman Catholics — all the other members 
 were Protestants. It was the more necessary, on this account, 
 that when matters of interest on which Protestants and Roman 
 Catholics were divided in their sympathies came to be considered, 
 they should be considered with the greatest possible care, in order 
 that the members of the House might not mislead themselves as 
 to the proper course to take. 
 
 Almost every speech that had been made on the other side of 
 the House was an appeal to the Protestant sentiment of the 
 country, and to the anti-Roinan Catholic sentiment of the coun- 
 try. The hon. member for London had in his speech disclaimed 
 some things as to which he was not followed by other members 
 of his side of the House. As regards these, he is a leader 
 who does not lead. Thus, he had disclaimed any intention of 
 
*ll SEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 supporting a demand for the abolition of Separate Schools, 
 but in this ho was not followed by all his friends on his own 
 side of the House, nor by his followers in the country. He had 
 also disclaimed the view urged by others that it was the duty 
 of the Government to do nothing that would increase the efti- 
 ciency of Separate Schools. On former occasions the hon. mem- 
 ber had been very distinct in expressing hit} opinion tjiat Separ- 
 ate Schools were entitled to have whatever legislation would 
 increase their efficiency. He had said something similar now. 
 But not so with some of his followers. On the contrary, the 
 Oovernment had been found fault with, though not in this de- 
 bate, because it had favoured legislation calculated to increase 
 the efficiency of these schools ; it had been ^contended that nothing 
 .should be done in that direction. 
 
 ^But while on these tv/o points the hon. member differed from 
 his supporters, ho had*by no means refrained from making the 
 same sort of appeal here and elsewhere as his friends in the 
 House and outside made. For this purpose the hon. metn- 
 'l)6r had read extracts from various Roman Catholic journals, 
 ■claiming deference and obedience from the laity to the bishops 
 and priosts in matters relating to Sej)arate Schools. That was 
 ii matter on which the sentiments expressed by these jour- 
 nals, or by the Roman Catholic clergy, were not the sentiments 
 of Protestants on the Government side of the House, any more 
 than of Protestants on the Opposition side. As for Roman Catho- 
 lics, it was for themselves to decide what amount of obedience 
 they owed to their clergy, and what amount of obedience they 
 would render to them in this matter; how far the dogmas of their 
 church required such obedience, and how far they would conform 
 their conduct to these dogmas. As for the law, no statutory en- 
 actment gave to bishops or priests an}'^ authority whatever in the 
 matter. The obligation, where recognised, was not of a legal kind. 
 In the eyes of the law of the Province, 
 
 NO BISHOP OR PRIEST HAD ANT 
 
 Tmore power as regards Separate Schools than, man for man, the 
 lay supporters of these schools had. But the fact has always been 
 known to the general public, that educational matters are pro- 
 nounced by the authorities of the Church of Rome to be matters 
 of religion, as much so, so he understood as the sacraments are. 
 This doctrine is not new on their part, and the announcement of 
 it is not new. It was known to be a dogma of the Roman Catho- 
 lic Church when the several Acts relating to Separate Schools 
 
 -^ •4MPI 
 
 •-Jm 
 
SEPARATE SCHOOLS. ^ 5 
 
 wero from time to time passed in the old Province of Canada 
 before 18G3, and it was known when the Separate School Act of 
 1803 was passed. For none of these Acts was he (the Attorney- 
 Oeneral) in any way responsible. 
 
 Mr. Merkdith. — Did they then demand this obedience, and say- 
 it was a religious duty? 
 
 The Attorn EY-GhNtiRAL. — Yes, so far as their own people were 
 concerned. In one of my Oxford speeches I showed this to be sa. 
 We do not .sympathise with them in regard to this dogma, but the* 
 fact of its being a dogma of the church is undeniable. He had 
 eaid that it was well known as such 
 
 WHEN THE SliPARATE JlCUOOL ! 
 
 Acts were passed by the old Province of Canada. It was wefl 
 known in 18(34 when the Quebec Resolutions, which are the 
 foundation of the B. N. A. Act, were passed at Qiiebec by dele- 
 gates of the several Provinces, and with the approval of all pai'ties. 
 The dogma was well known when the B. N. A. Act was pekS.«'*M?. 
 To pretend that the present Government of Ontario is in mny way 
 responsible for the dogma, or for its announcement or operation, is. 
 absurd. 
 
 Again, continued the Attorney-General, it had been stated by 
 one hon. gentleman opposite that there were more Roman Catho- 
 lics supporting the Government than the aggregate majority 
 which the Government had all over the countr}' at the election of 
 188G. The hon. gentleman who made this statement put that 
 aggregate majority at 5,000 ; the Attorney-General did not know- 
 on what ground. The hon. member had then said that thenuml)ei- 
 of Roman Catholics who had voted for the Government was con- 
 siderably more than 5,000. The hon. gentleman should remember 
 that the Roman Catholic voters are spread over the country, la 
 many constituencies the Government had a majority without any- 
 Roman Catholic vote, and that majority was simply swelled by- 
 that vote. In other places the Conservatives were so strong that 
 the Roman Catholic votes cast for the Liberal party did not affect 
 the result. Then another fact was to be borne in mind. In case 
 of any serious and substantial 
 
 QUESTION BETWF.EN ROMAN CATHOLICS 
 
 and Protestants, Protestants would unite in su))port of what they 
 deemed the right. If there had been no such union in this House^ 
 it was because no such question had arisen. The Ontario Legis- 
 lature had passed various amendments to the Separate School 
 
6 
 
 SErARATE SCilOOJ.S. 
 
 law, but all these had, at the time of their passing, and for Ion;? 
 afterwards, had the concurrence of Protestants as well as Catho- 
 lics. Not one of them but had the approbation of hon. gentlemen 
 opposite ; not one wjis opposed by them; and the api)robation ot the. 
 country was as general as that of the House. He did not remem- 
 ber a single objection made outside of the House, any mgre than 
 inside, until the agitation with a view to the general election of 
 188G commenced. There had been no such objection in the news- 
 papers ; none by either Protestant clergy or Protestant laity any- 
 where; none even by the Orange Associations of the Province. The 
 Government had used extreme care in confining all enactments 
 within such limits that the enactments would be generally ap- 
 proved by the Protestants of the Province, and tney M'ere so 
 approved until the political agitation was entered upon four years 
 Ago. One consequence of the predominance of Protestants in the 
 Province and in tine Legislature is, that measures likely to be 
 distasteful to Protestants as such, are not proposed from any 
 quaiter. The hon. member had endeavored to make out that 
 because the Government had (as he said) an aggregate majority 
 of only 5,000 on the entire vote at the general election, and 
 because they hadhad more than 5,000 Roman Catholic supportei's, 
 therefore the Government has been kept in power by Roman 
 Catholic votes. But in the same way it might have been urged 
 that because the Government had had more than 5,000 supporters 
 of the denomination to which thp.t hon. gentleman belonged, the 
 Methodist, therefore the Government was kept in power by the 
 Methodist vote. The same might be said in regard to the Pres- 
 byterians, because the Government had more than 5,000 votes of 
 Presbyterians. So in regard to the votes of members of the Church 
 of England, and of Baptists and Congregational ists. Again, he 
 believed that more than 5,000 votes had been cast for the Govern- 
 ment by German settlers and their descendants ; and so it might 
 be urged that the Germans had kept the Government in power. 
 Bat the truth is, insisted the Attorney- General, we have had the 
 support of all denominations, and all nationalities, and all classes 
 of people in the Province, and it is by the aggregate vote of all 
 that the Government has been kept in power. (Applause.) 
 
 As to the abolition of Separate Schools, this idea has found favor 
 with some hon, gentlemen opposite, though they have been some- 
 what cautious in their references to it The leader of the opposi- 
 tion, though not favoring it now, was -not very clear on the ques- 
 tion, for he rather intimated that he might some day go for the 
 abolitior Separate Schools should a certain state of things 
 arise whici, 9 referred to ; but his followers speak differently and 
 
 J 
 
SItPARATE SCHOOLS. 7 
 
 are prepared already to go for the abolition. Now what does 
 t he abolition of Separate Schools tiieau ? Not an absolute 
 abolition oi* Separate Schools. If anybody imagines that in case the 
 laws now on the statute book were repealed to-morrow Separate 
 Schools would thereby be abolished, they would deceive them- 
 selves. These schools would still continue, and nobody would 
 suggest their being then interfered with. The change of the law 
 would merely be the withdrawal of the right of Roman Catholics 
 to pay their school tax to their Separate Schools. They would 
 be assessed for the Public Schools to which they did not send 
 their children, as well as pay tor the support of the Separate 
 Schools to which they did send them. In this way Roman 
 Catholics would practically be doubly taxed. 
 
 Now, how does the case stand under the B. N. A. Act, with 
 reference to the abolition of Separate Schools in this sense, 
 or in any sense in which their abolition is contemplated ? It is 
 a well understood fact, which nobody disputes, that the Provin- 
 cial Legislature has no power to abolish them. If a Provincial 
 Legislature should pass an Act for their abolition, it would be 
 <Jisallowed at Ottawa as being 
 
 BEYOND PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION. 
 
 It would be invalid even if not so disallowed. The Dominion 
 Parliament itself has no power under the Constitution to abol- 
 ish Separate Schools. These are facts. There is no room for 
 argument to the contrary. The consequence is, that the abo- 
 lition of Separate Schools can only be accomplished by the Im- 
 perial Parliament ; and it is perfectly certain that the Imperial 
 Parliament will not abolish them on any representation now 
 made. This may be certain to any man acquainted with politics 
 and with the history of these schools in Ontario, that there is not 
 the slightest chance of inducing the Imperial Parliament in our 
 time to repeal those provisions in the B. N. A. Act which guar- 
 anteed these schools, * 
 
 Consider what would take place if the Legislature or people of 
 Ontario should ask the Imperial Parliament to repeal those provi- 
 sions. The great Province of Quebec would oppose the repeal, and 
 the Roman Catholic population of all the other provinces would 
 oppose it. The Roman Catholic population of Canada at the last 
 census amounted to nearly two millions and the Protestant popu- 
 lation to something over two millions and a half , IJhe Roman 
 Catholic population of Great Britain and Ireland w,, ,^ also oppose 
 the repeal. British statesmen would know or learn how it 
 
8 
 
 SEPARATE SCUOOLS. 
 
 caiDO about that these schools were guaranteed by the Constitu- 
 tion. And what are the facts wnich they would know or 
 learn i That the Separate Schools had been guaranteed at the 
 instance ot both Ontario and Quebec, and at the instance of both 
 the Protestant an<l Koinan Catholic populations of the whole coun- 
 try ; that the new Constitution had been framed with the concur- 
 rence of boih Ontario and Quebec ; that Catholic Quebec at the 
 time, though with a smaller population than Ontario and with 
 less wealth, and without having other advantages which Ontario 
 possessed, had notwithstanding an equal representation in the 
 Legislative Assembly of the Province, each section having 65 
 Members ; that the practical workinnr of the Constitution was 
 such that under it the Separate Schools of Ontario were 
 
 ( ( 
 
 PllACTICALLY SAFE FROM ABOLITION 
 
 or interference ; that it had l>een found impossibles to get rid of 
 them ; that it had been praftically proved to be so by the failure 
 of an active agitation for that purpose, conducted with great 
 energy, ability and perseverance. So, all the institutions ot Lower 
 Canada which were cherislied by Roman Catholics were peifectly 
 safe from Protestant interference. But there were difficulties in 
 working the Constitution of 1H40, and so the Confederation of 
 18G7 had come about. 
 
 In what spirit was the new Constitution framed ? It waa a com- 
 promise all round, and an essential part of that compromise — so 
 essential that without it Confederation could never have taken place 
 — was the provision by which the Separate Schools of Ontario and 
 the Protestant dissentient schools ot Quebec were guarantee*! by 
 Imperial enactment. It was by common consent that the provision 
 about Sei)arate Schools had been placed amongst those provisions 
 of the B. N. A. Act of 1867, which neither the Dominion Parlia- 
 ment nor a Provincial Legislature was to have power to change. 
 Tliere were other things in the Act which the Provinces were to 
 be at liberty to change, and there were things which the Dominion 
 Parliament might change ; so the Act declared ; but the matter 
 of Ilouian Catholic Separate Schools in Ontario and Protes- 
 tant Schools in Quebec was one of those which there was 
 to be no power on this side of the Atlantic to change to 
 the injury of these schools. But for this being guaranteed, we 
 would have had no Dominion Parliament with its present limited 
 powers, and no Provincial Le^i^islatures with their powers. In 
 consentinor to Confederation on this ba is, and foregfoinij the other 
 advantages which the former system gave to the Roman Catho* 
 
 '> 
 
8KFAHAT£ 8CUOOLS. 
 
 titu- 
 
 01* 
 
 the 
 both 
 oua- 
 Hcur- 
 
 the 
 with 
 tario 
 
 the 
 g 65 
 
 wa» 
 
 lies of Lower Canadii, and to the Roman Catholics of Upper Can- 
 ada, the Lower Canada majority and the Upper Canada minority^ 
 DO doubt, relied on the 
 
 HONOUR OF TOK IMPKUIAL I'AULIAMKNT • 
 
 to maintain the <^narjirit('<» on tlu' faith of which the new Consti- 
 tution became a possibility and was agree<l lo. In view of all 
 these facts, British statesmen would deem it a point of honour to 
 reluse the repeal ; not ten men in the Britisii Parliament would 
 support a repeal ; it would not be considered worthy of discus- 
 sion. Lord Salisbury, the present Premier, has had trouble enough 
 now with Ireland — 
 
 Mr. Meukditu. — You are not going to threaten u.; with a Home 
 Rule vote ? 
 
 TuK Attornky Ukneual. — No, nor witli anythinj^ else. But 
 you know that every word I am saying is true, '"he Honora^i'.e 
 gentleman, Mr. Mowat continued, ia a good 'awyer, nnd ! as re- 
 .speet for his proicsional reputation, which some othoi lave not, 
 timl will .^t dispute wnal I have stated. It is pc.i'ei tiy certaii» 
 that Lord Salisbury wouM not consent to add to his present 
 troubles by passing a repealing Act in the face of the opposition 
 which would be given to it ; not to .speak of the other facts 1 
 have mentioned. So with Mr. Gladstone and his lollowers, who 
 are allies of the Home Rule party in order to assist in getting 
 for Ireland the great reforms needed there. There is tlirs not 
 the smallest chance of such a measure being passed by tlie Im- 
 jjerial Parliament. "The Separate Schools are a fact in our 
 Constitution," said the Attorney General, '* and we have to accept 
 it whether we now like it or not. I would be deceiving the people, 
 I would be deceiving my ProtesUint Iriends, if I should express 
 a (different view. Knowing what I do, it is my duty to bi'ing to 
 pul.lic attention, and press home upon all, the real state of the 
 ca.se." In view of these facts, it is plain that the only practical pur- 
 pose which a cry for the abolition of Separate Schools can .serve, 
 the only effect the cry can have is that it may be useful as a 
 political cry for hon. gentlemen opposite ; for any other practical 
 purpose it is of no use at all. 
 
 C -ntinuing, the Attorney-General said that he had personally 
 been to a certain extent, and up to a certain time, a party to (confed- 
 eration. He was a party to the Quebec resolutions that had pre- 
 ceded Confederation, but was not in Parliament for some years 
 sub.sequently, being on the Bench and out of political life. 
 
 Mr. Meredith. — You ha«l withdrawn for a season. (Ironical 
 Opposition Ciieor.s.) 
 

 10 
 
 SEPAllATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 I I 
 
 The Attorney General.— Yes, I had withdrawn for a reason, 
 and I hope that I was of soma service on the Bench (Applause). 
 I think I have been of some service since I left the Bench (Loud 
 Applause), for I have perhaps contributed to keep my hon. friend 
 where he is. (Cheers.) -re -i j * > v, , 
 
 Further, continued the Attorney-General, to refer again to the 
 case he had been putting, it was not p-s if the compromise of which 
 he had spoken had been eft'ected by a bare majority of the people, 
 or by a small majority. The case was stronger than that, as the 
 Imperial Parliament would learn or would know. The arrange- 
 ment had been accepted by men of all parties and creeds in both 
 Upper and Lower Canada ; it was a compromise effected by the 
 whole people to an extent that very seldom happened in the 
 case of a great public measure ; and people at the present day 
 have only to understand the position in order to perceive beyond 
 doubt that the only possible use of the cry to abolish Separate 
 Schools is, that it may make temporary political and party capital. 
 He knew that there were some very good men amongst those who 
 were engacjed in stirring up the public mind for the abolition of 
 Separate Schools. 
 
 Mr. Meredith. — For political purposes ? 
 
 The Attorney-General said he had been going on to say in 
 regard to these, not for political purposes, but from conviction. If 
 the hon. member for London engaged in such a crusade, it would 
 be for political purposes, as the honorable member knew that the 
 abolition was impracticable. But many had engaged in stirring 
 up this feeling who had no political purpose of that kind, and on 
 the contrary were actuated hy religious zeal, were upright men, 
 anxious in this as in all things to do their whole duty. They 
 were acting under the idea that the abolition of Separate Schools 
 might be accomplished by means of the agitation. But united 
 with them were others who had been doser students of our 
 political history, and who knew that no such result could come of 
 the agitation. With these it was simply being used as a political 
 <jry. And was there anything more disgraceful than that such a 
 matter should be used as political capital ? (Applause.) 
 
 Several other things had been said by hon. gentlemen opposite 
 with the same purpose of arousing, for party purposes, a hostile 
 feeling among those Protestants who did not perceive the practical 
 bearings of this question. It was said 
 
 , . THAT THE LAW DISCRIMINATED ^ 
 
 in favor of Roman Catholics, and that they have privileges in re- 
 gard to their Separate Schools which the Protestants have not. 
 
SEPAKATE SCHOOLS, 
 
 11 
 
 season, 
 
 plause). 
 
 (Loud 
 
 friend 
 
 to the 
 if which 
 
 people, 
 
 as the 
 
 irrange- 
 
 in both 
 
 1 by the 
 
 in the 
 ent day 
 > beyond 
 Separate 
 J capital, 
 lose who 
 lition of 
 
 to say in 
 ction. If 
 it would 
 that the 
 1 stirring 
 i, and on 
 ight men, 
 y. They 
 ,e Schools 
 ut united 
 ts of our 
 i come of 
 ei political 
 lat such a 
 
 1 opposite 
 , a hostile 
 } practical 
 
 But it is to be remembered that in most parts of the Province 
 the Public Schools are in the hands of Protestants, and it is only 
 in very exceptional circumstances that the Protestants of the Pro- 
 vince want Separate Schools. There are (I think) but eight of such 
 schools in all Ontario. The public sentiment in tlie Protestant 
 churches is, that it is better that Public Schools should be supported, 
 &nd not denominational schools. (Applause.) 1 'lotestants hold that 
 it is better for our whole people, no matter what denomination they 
 belong to, that the children should all learn together in our Pub- 
 lic Schools as well as in our High Schools. But the law does 
 provide for the establishment of Separate Schools for Protestants 
 if they want them, as well as for Roman Catholics when they 
 want them. He would read to the House some of the Statiitory 
 enactments, in order that there should be no doubt about this. 
 The second section of the Separate School Act read as follows : — 
 
 " Upon the application in writing of fivo or more heads of families resi- 
 dent in any ton nsbip, city, town or incorporated village, being Proteatauts, 
 the Municipal Council of the said township, or the Board of School Trustees 
 of any such city, town or incorporated village, shall authorise the establish- 
 ment therein of one or more Separate Schools for Protestants." 
 
 Then the Attorney-General read the sixth section as follows : — 
 
 *' In any city or town the persons who make application, according to the 
 provisions of section 2 of thu Act, may have a Separate School in each ward 
 or in two or morsi wards united, as the said persons may judge expedient." 
 
 So, continued the Attorney-General, that was what the law 
 provided for Protestants in this matter. 
 
 Mr. Meredith asked if the Attorney-General understood that 
 this applied to the rural districts. 
 
 The Attornef-General replied that he understood so. If 
 before or since Confederation more convenient machinery had 
 been provided for Roman Catholic Separate Scho >ls than for Pro- 
 testant Separate Schools, it was because Protestants had not 
 asked for changes in the original provisions as to Protestant 
 Separate Schools. No class of Protestants, no church, no indi- 
 vidual, so far as I am aware, had ever asked for any such changes. 
 Speaking generally, Protestants do not want to make use of their 
 power to establish Separate Schools, and he was glad they did 
 not (Applause.) He thought it 
 
 WOULD be a CALAMI- Z TO THE 
 
 ages in re- 
 ihave not. 
 
 country if they did. It was for the common advantage that they 
 fihould not use these provision.s of the law, and that al) s ould 
 
\i 
 
 n 
 
 ' SEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 h 
 
 * ' unite in a common system of Public Schools. He would be gluJ 
 '-if the Jloman Catliolic population did the same, but they could 
 not be forced to do so. 
 
 There had been a good deal of criticism, the Attorney-General 
 continued, upon the enactments in re«=(ard to Separate Schools 
 since Confederation. Some of the criticism has been abandoned. 
 Amongst m.my other things which used to be said and are said 
 no longer, one was that there was no power of appeal to the 
 Court of Revision from an assessment as a Separate School sup- 
 ' porter. The hon. ni^mber for London in a former session had 
 said it was a doubtful matter. 
 
 Mr. Meredith. — I said that others thought it doubtful, but 
 my own opinion was that it was not so. 
 
 Thb Attorney-General. — At all events others said that there 
 was no appeal to the Court of Revision. He (Mr. Movvat) had 
 always insisted that there was an appeal, and that there was no 
 reasonable doubt of it. He had said so before the decision of the 
 Judges here. Since that decision no one doubts, if any doublet I 
 before, that there is an appeal to the Court of Revision. 
 
 the government had hoped 
 
 I'! 
 
 I- I 
 
 
 that in some way or other that question would be brought before 
 the High Court at an earlier date by those who affirmed that no 
 such appeal lay, but it was not brought before the High Court 
 until the Minister of Education himself recently brought it there.. 
 The question has now been judicially set at rest. 
 
 Another thing upon which a great deal has been said was the 
 condition of ihe law respecting the notices which have to be 
 given in order to cN'ojnpt Roman Catholics from the Public School 
 tax. It used to be said that we had repealed the law whit;h made 
 these notices necessary, but I presume no one now doubts that a 
 R iman Catholic should not unaer the existing law be assuissed as. 
 a Separate School supporter, unless he has given written notice 
 of his wish to be so. It appears that a practice had grown u[j of 
 assuming all Roman Catholics to be Separate School supporters 
 where the contrary did not appear. This practice is srid to iiavu 
 prevailed, in some localities at least, before our legislation. It was 
 considered in the various localities in which notices were omi»ttod, 
 whether after our legislation or before, that the matter was for 
 the Roman Catholics themselves .to deal with, and Protestants 
 took no interest in it until political agitation gave prominence to 
 the matter. In tho legislation that the Qovernment liad intro- 
 duced this session their object was to make the requirements of 
 the original statute clear. , 
 
|L;e glu'J 
 
 could 
 
 Jeneral 
 Schools 
 idoned. 
 ire said 
 to the 
 aol sup- 
 on had 
 
 ful, but 
 
 at there 
 
 ^at) had 
 
 > was no 
 
 n of the 
 
 doubled 
 
 rht before 
 i\ that no 
 igli Court 
 t it there., 
 
 d was th»' 
 ave to be 
 3lic School 
 hich made 
 ibts that a 
 isses.sod a«. 
 Lten notice 
 -own iv[) of 
 supporters 
 •id to have 
 >n. It was* 
 re omi»tted, 
 ter was for 
 Protestants 
 (ininence to 
 t, liad intro- 
 lirements of 
 
 SEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 13 
 
 In 1877, th6 provision was made for an appeal to the Court of 
 Revision in such matters, in order to protect the taxpayer ; and 
 every taxpayer had the right of appeal in respect of every assess- 
 ment, whether of his own or of another. Such appeals are pro- 
 vided because the approved policy of the law is that the assess- 
 ment roll when finally revised should be conclusive for all pur- 
 poses, and not open to luture question ; yet it may occasionally 
 happen that, for example, I may be taxed for not ono-half of 
 what I ought to pay taxes for, or I may claim some exemntion to 
 which I am not entitled. In either case, if !io one appeals, I get 
 the benefit of the insufficient assessment, or of the unauthorised 
 exemption. So it is with every case of assessment. A man may 
 be charged too much, or he may be charged nothing when he 
 ought to be charged a great deal, or he may be charged something 
 when he ought to be charged nothing. Yet the propriety of mak- 
 ing the assessment roll when finally revised to be binding on 
 everyone has always been maniiested. 
 
 He (the Attorney-General) had heard objection made to their 
 legislation in regard to Separate Schools on the ground that it 
 Rad increased the efficiency of those schools, and this is another 
 of the objections not recently heatd. In answer to it he might 
 saj'- that it had neVer been the policy of Protestants or of any 
 Government to object to Roman Catholic education being effi- 
 cient. On the contrary, the view that had been taken, and he 
 thought the right view, was that it they must have Separate 
 Schools they should be as efficient as possible (Cheers). The bill 
 of the hon. member for North Grey proceeded on this view, and 
 he should be sorry to think that any Protestants would favor a 
 different course. 
 
 In the present debate some things have been objected to which 
 are not dealt with by any of the Opposition Biils l)eiore the 
 House. For instance, something has been said in debate about 
 the inspection of Separate School', and the payment of the 
 Inspectors by theTProvince. 
 
 Now what are the facts ? 
 
 In Dr. Ryerson's time he directed the Inspectors of the High 
 Schools to do duty as Inspectors of Separate Schools, and they 
 were paid by the Province. Experience has demonstrated and 
 everyone admits that the inspection of schools is essential to theh- 
 efficiency. No one can question that. It the schools are to be 
 efficient they must have thorough inspection and by ca])ablemen. 
 The inspection of Separate Schooh^ as he had already said, was 
 in the liret instance performed by Provincial officers, tlie High 
 School Inspectors. The reason another system of inspection was 
 
Pi mni*wtJ *«wyia"^.^j 
 
 
 1 : I 
 
 14 
 
 1* . XT' \. ^ohooX Inspectors had -r 
 
 ,, . the duties of Higli School ^. ^^^ ^uty , , 
 
 tX^tCt^lr:^^.. „o.t.e P..ne sow Inspeeto. 
 ,,SSP-^^^^^^^^ w., coding to^atnext TUe 
 ''''^Ib AWNr-«^,renao«s hurry. (Uug^ «0- ^^'^l^^^aU 
 hon. member - "^^^^^^'ee in all «tSeI on ef«0-'W"g •=""' 
 
 v,,.L^vT \PP01MTED 
 THE GOVERNMENT Al fu 
 
 ^ . The wen selected 
 
 • «;ol Tnsoectors for this duty. ^ualitied in . 
 
 two other Provincial Inapec ^^. experience well 1 ^^^^^^^^ 
 
 were loyal men, of ^neigy, .^^^^^^ed m doing i^ ^^.^. 
 
 Tv'ry way fo. the w-;^; and^^^,,, ,,,t e^tr'^e Roman 
 possible ^vay. ^;^^y/^Jve far greater \^^f ^J^l^^'^ i,ave, and it 
 Swn relig on T^^"^^^^^^^ ^^^^'^ werde^ree to increase 
 
 Catholic «cb«;.\«Jf "^ovUd be able in aj^^.^agons applied oi 
 equally ^^"^P^^f.L schools. The ^^ame observa ^.^^^^^^ ^^^^^ 
 the etiic.ency of the sen ^^^^^^^ ^^'^'1 Iv such case m 
 
 course to ^^^^^ n^ .^ants He did not know an s ^^ ^^^^ 
 all or chiefly P^'^^^Xhc had been ^PPO^^^^^*^^ f^^^'^ehildren have 
 which a Roman ^^f^^^^^ij Guardians of Pr^^^^^ useful than a 
 ScV^^ols. 'i'l^^P^:tt:t Injector -o-^^,,^ArSepCate School, 
 felt that a Protestant ^^ ent wanted the oep ^^^„|a 
 
 Koman Caaiohc. J^^^ ^^^^ }^^t^Jt^^ ^^^ 
 to be 
 
 I h 
 
 t i 
 
 ^«\ned that tbe salaries oi oei--^^^ ^ be r' ^-^''^^X;; 
 
 complainea, ui"-^ treasury. tS"^ ' t to wobt, ttiere 
 
 paid out of,^*^f,P,^e whole VvoVn^ce i^o.^e^^ .^ ^^^^y ^ere 
 Ihat throughout ^be J Separate School^. , ^^^ ^^^ ^^ 
 
 ^rs, they would prooaoi^ . 
 
««««A7if>.w:n!muiiUftMA<«MieMUMflP<U'.4»;»ltll 
 
 :;•.'* 
 
 SEl'AIJATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 i6 
 
 ,a3 
 
 led ; . 
 
 The 
 
 yer- 
 
 ,tiou 
 
 coii- 
 
 jtor& 
 
 nltyr 
 
 : and 
 
 Lected 
 ied in . 
 le best 
 ; their 
 Roman 
 
 and ii* 
 ncrease 
 
 plied of 
 jn were 
 case ill 
 
 of the 
 •en have 
 [ than a 
 5 Schools 
 ct would 
 
 Catholic 
 otestants, 
 
 than one 
 tors were 
 ip.cmbered 
 !e^t, there 
 they were 
 ild not do 
 much B.0- 
 ool Inspec- 
 ute \ by the 
 
 Treasury fcr the salarieH of Separate School Inspectors was not 
 more than Roman Catholics pay for Public School Inspectors from 
 whose services Roman Catholics do not get any benefit. Thus, 
 practically, the Separate School Inspectora are paid fdr by Ro- 
 man Catholics out of their own money. Considering the effici- 
 ency of the Separate Schools, he maintained that the most desir- 
 able thing to do was to appoint these Inspectors. (Cheers.) '^ ' 
 There was another point that hon. members complained about, 
 but did not propose to remedy ; and that is that in the Act of 
 1879 provision was made for 
 
 " ' . s . .';'.' 
 
 f CREATING SEPARATE SCHOOLS INTO 
 
 i' 
 
 Model Schools. The section relating to this provided : " The 
 Education Department may authorize a Separate School in any 
 county to be constituted a Model School for the training of 
 teachers for Separate Schools, subject to the regulations of the 
 Department, and where in any county such Model School ha& 
 been established, or from the special circumstances of the Separ- 
 ate Schools theueiu the Minister of Education should deem it ex- 
 pedient, he may recommend for appointment by the Lieutenant- 
 i Governor in Council some one competent person, possessing qual- 
 lifieations prescribed by the Education Department, to be a mem- 
 Iber of the County Board of Examiners of such county in addition 
 th*e number now authorized, and who shall possess and dis- 
 jharge the like powers and duties as the other members of the 
 Joard." Now ho »v many Separate Schools have been constituted 
 [odel Schools under this enactment ? Not one. 
 Mr. Meredith. — That was a small matter. 
 The Attorney-General. — My hon. friend says this is a small 
 latter ; but all the objections which he and others have raised 
 ipon the statutes are small matters. He (the Attorney-General) 
 rished to point out that there was no practical grievance as re- 
 jrards these Model Schools. 
 
 The Attorney-General then dealt with the powers of legisla- 
 
 lon in respect to Separate Schools. There were difficulties he 
 
 lid in applying the provisions of the B N. A. Act, He thought it 
 
 ^as peifuctiy clear, although they had power to make regula- 
 
 ms, and although they might amend in some respects the sta- 
 
 ites relating to Separate Schools, that they had no power to in- 
 
 4rfere in any way with, at all events, the religious instructions 
 
 Wen in these schools. 
 
 Mr. Meredith.— Where does the hon. gentleman find a word 
 
 Lit reliffious instruction in the whole of the Act ? 
 
/,/■ 
 
 il 
 
 16 
 
 SK PA HATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 The ArroRNEy-GKNERAL said the hon. gentleman knew per- 
 fectly well that the B. N. A. Act expressly provided for " denom- 
 inational schools," and spoke of the schools of the "Queen's 
 Roman Catholic subjects," and that by the express terras of the 
 B. N. A. Act the Legislature had no power to interfere with the 
 existing rights of any class of persons with reference to the said 
 schools. He had no doubt whatever 
 
 THAT THE PRlVr COUNCIL 
 
 I I 
 
 I ; 
 li 
 
 i I 
 
 I I 
 
 'I 
 
 would hold that the House had no jurisdiction — no power — to 
 interfere with Separate Schools as regards religious instruction. 
 On some other points there was more or less difficulty. The 
 member for North Grey had a Bill in which he sought to compel 
 all the teachers of Roman Catholic schools to hold the same class 
 of certificates as teachers of the Public Schools. At the Union of 
 18G7 these schools, by express enactment, were entitled to employ 
 teachers qualified as teachers by the then law of either Upper or 
 Lower Canada, and teachers so qualified by the law of Cath >lic 
 Lower Canada were entitled to be employed by any Separate 
 Schools in Upper Canada which chose to employ them. I pre- 
 sume the object was to include certain religious orders. This is 
 claimed to be one of the rights or privileges conferred on Sepa- 
 rate Schools by the Constitution ; aud these teachers in case of 
 being selected by the Roman Catholic supporters of a Separate 
 School, claim a right to be teachers of such a school, and to be 
 employed in that capacity. 
 
 It being now 6 o'clock the Speaker left the Chair. 
 
 After recess Mr. Mowat resumed. He said in the bill brought 
 down by the Minister of Education there was no provision for 
 the ballot, because the Government believed that the Separate 
 School su Importers did not yet want the ballot. There were the 
 same reasons for the ballot in Separate School elections as in 
 Public School elections. It was commonly suggested that the 
 ballot was also necessary for the protection of the Roman Catho- 
 lics against their clergy. Having possessed himself of all the 
 information available on the subject, he was satisfied there was 
 no such antagonism between the clergy of the 
 
 CHURCH OF ROME AND 
 
 the people of that Church, as the argument of the Opposition 
 assumecl — that as regards the clergy and the mass of the people of 
 the Church of Rome, there was the utmost confidence, respect and 
 
 ■>. 
 
 -*>>**!•- 
 
 J 
 
)w per- 
 denom- 
 I Queen's 
 IS of the 
 rith the 
 the said 
 
 lower — to 
 
 Istruction. 
 
 ty. The 
 
 to compel 
 
 same clasH 
 
 Union of 
 
 to employ 
 
 Upper or 
 
 £ Catb )lic 
 
 Separate 
 
 m. I pre- 
 
 3. This is 
 
 d on Sepa- 
 
 [ in case of 
 
 a Separate 
 
 1, and to be 
 
 bill brought 
 rovision for 
 ae Separate 
 re were the 
 jtions as in 
 Bd that the 
 •man Catho- 
 If of all the 
 )d there was 
 
 J Opposition 
 the people of 
 J, respect and 
 
 aEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 17 
 
 affection on the part of the laity towards the clergy. Ho should 
 be deceiving himself if he took any other view, and so would the 
 Protestant public if they took any other view. To impose the 
 ballot on Separate School supporters from a Protestant standpoint, 
 and before they wantod it, could not bs proper on the part of a 
 Protestant legislature in a free country. For Protestants to agitate 
 for it before Roman Catholics are ready delays rather than hastens 
 their disposition to adopt the ballot. Non- politicians might be 
 of a different impression ; politicians, he did not believe, could 
 have any other view than this. A good deal was said about the 
 corporate Roman Catholic vote, and it is affirmed that such is the 
 influence of the Roman Catholic clergy that the so-called corpor- 
 ate vote in parliamentary elections is subject to their guidance. 
 If so, it is subject to their influence notwithstanding the ballot, 
 for we have the ballot in the elections to this House and to the 
 House of Commons ; and what our opponents now-a-days say as 
 to the corporate vote, demonstrates that they do not believe what 
 they profess to believe as to the power of the clergy needing the 
 check of the ballot in regard to Separate Schools. 
 
 His own idea was, that the ballot would not make a particle of 
 difference to the Roman Catholic clergy in school matters ; and it 
 was for the Roman Catholic laity themselves to say when the time 
 had come for the adoption of the ballot system as regards their 
 schools. It was to be remembered that it 
 
 . - It, 
 
 ^ TOOK EIGHTY YEARS AFTER 
 
 the people of this country had a representative Assembly before 
 they were prepared to adopt the ballot for parliamentary elections. 
 The ballot in municipal elections did not come for a couple of years 
 longer. Then they gave the option of the ballot in Public School 
 elections, and not one-third of the Public School Boards had 
 availed themselves of the use of it. 
 
 Mr. Meredith. — It does not apply to rural sections. 
 
 Mr. Mowat said it did not matter. A very large proportion of 
 the schools which had the power of adopting the ballot did not 
 avail themselves of it — that was the point. That fact showed 
 that Protestant school supporters were not prepared for the gen- 
 eral adoption of the ballot even for Public Schools. Time must 
 be given for all these things. In some cases the ballot had been 
 adopted for a Public School election, and its adoption had after- 
 wards been regretted. His own opinion was that the ballot 
 would ultimately be adopted by all schools, Public and Separate, 
 but the time must be left, to some extent, to the option of those 
 concerned. 
 
 *f ffwfWKttS^^ — ' 
 
»tam 
 
 li I 1 
 
 I , 
 
 11 1 
 
 18 
 
 SEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 . . luv re<n-et8 having adopted > 
 _What municipality regie*^ 
 
 School BOPP""- f" X'tetoved to the n?'»^«\f „^"r other, the 
 
 member oppo^'^' "^'l^^'schooU, and in »»">f, ^ ^norable tnem- 
 
 .hildren a««°^"'f dTnotknov. exactly hoW; *\Xman Catho- 
 Attorney-GeneraUhd n eircan.sten<M> that the » ^^ „{ 
 
 ber had argued trora ^^^^ ,t there w ^j^^^^ 
 
 t*itS"- not people 
 
 FOB WHOM THE BATXOT AT ^^^ ^^ 
 
 BeP-'^-rtl^^^flSXr^H^^ '* 
 Schools ; there ^^ „f J?hele had hitherto asked to- ^^^ 
 
 the law on this ^""Jg je Schools. The non^ ^^ 
 
 as with respect to ^"V^'"! „„estion to f orce t e oai , ^ 
 
 touldhe «««='^'Vl„l H optional as t^P"^'^„^ld t^e^'^""^ 
 ,ale Schools and ler.^^ is which ^f ^U J t ^o^^-^ ^''- 
 larse "»'"'''' ,.Lo,osed upon them by ^*»'\', T' ^ft to their own 
 would have jt in'po.f P^ ^^^^ ^\t:tiX-^'>i the Bill, and 
 come law. He ooje ^^ ^^^ F™!! Lund principles of 
 
 option, as It IS "o"- r^ '^^^ contrary to all s una P r 
 le proposed ^^Pf-Vb^ral yeas of ^^f^^^^ Separate 
 
 tSchool supporters, whicti 
 
(fi vr?i -■%m 
 
 SEPARATE SCHOOLS. 
 
 19 
 
 opted 
 
 he. 
 I will 
 
 iparate 
 in hou. 
 jatholic 
 her, the 
 le mem- 
 . Catho- 
 ildren of 
 Its where 
 lathoUcs 
 spite of 
 ildren to 
 
 ts been no 
 lution has 
 L' Separate 
 tie Boman 
 tor the bal- 
 to find any 
 jrable num- 
 school dec- 
 ay, it v/ent 
 
 London. In 
 es to change 
 hoola as well 
 ember felt it 
 aiot on fc^epa- 
 chools. So a 
 3ted the ballot 
 
 it should be- 
 t to their own 
 ,f the Bill, and 
 
 ,d principles ot 
 I Then there 
 cting Separate 
 ,ns. The tirst 
 
 • 
 
 section of that Bill assumed that as the law now stood a 
 person might be entitled to be assessed as a Separate School 
 supporter without having given the notice which the law re- 
 quired. The Attorney-General objected to the assumption 
 contained in the expression " notwithstanding any provision 
 to the contrary," etc. There is no provision to the contrary. As 
 to the second section, it was so absurd 
 
 THAT HB: could HARDLY BELIEVE 
 
 that it was from the hand of the leader of the Opposition. It 
 proposed to make it the duty of the clerk to make the necessary 
 entries upon the roll on this subject of Separate Schools after the 
 roll had been finally revised. He provided no appeal and no 
 machinery for correcting errors as under the present Act. 
 The Bill said that any error of the clerk should not be conclusive, 
 but it provided no means of correcting an error. 
 
 Mr. Meredith. — Supposing the clerk makes a mistake now ? 
 Hon. Mr. Mowat. — In our Bill w^e have a provision which 
 meets such a case. We cannot prevent mist^ikes altogether, 
 but we reduce the chances of mistakes to a minimum. We 
 have a provision by which the Council may correct mistakes 
 which had not been taken to the Court of Revision. 
 
 It is plain from what had appeared during the past few days 
 that it is the intention and fixed plan of the managers of the 
 Opposition throughout the Province to endeavor to make political 
 capital for themselves out of the religious sympathies of the 
 Protestant population, and out of the religious antagonism 
 aroused between Roman Catholics and Protestants. He hoped 
 they would fail in these unholy tactics. " For myself," said the 
 Attorney-General in conclusion, " and for the Protestant mem- 
 bers of the Government, I will say that we are attached with all 
 our hearts to the Protestant churches to which we respectively 
 belong ; but we recognise it as our duty to be fair to the Ro- 
 man Catholic minority according to our light. We have exam- 
 ined the school question as Protestants, as we fully recognised it 
 to be our duty to do, and we are satisfied in regard to all the 
 Bills of the Opposition — that they would be of no service to 
 the Province ; that they are bad Bills — (applause) ; and aa a > 
 Protestant myself of nearly 70 years', I have no hesitation. 'm 
 advising the House to reject these bills, and to pasf»> the 
 Bill of the Minister of Education. 
 
 The Attorney-General resumed his smt amid the b^earty ap- 
 plause of the House. . 
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 /