5 
 
 The Colonial Office, 
 
 Whitehall, S.W. 
 
 Thursday, May $th, 1881, 
 
 DISPUTATION 
 
 TO 
 
 THE RIGHT HON, THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, 
 
 AND 
 
 THE RIGHT HON. THE MARQUIS OF HARTINGTON, 
 
 FROM 
 
 Crairc Sbariff titbit, 
 
 ON THE SUBJECT OF 
 
 BRITISH AND INTER-COLONIAL TARIFFS. 
 
 i 
 
 London : 
 G. HILL, STEAM PRINTER, WESTMINSTER BRIDGE ROAD. 
 
Previous to the interview the delegates, acting upon a summons 
 to that effect, a33euibled at the Westminster Palace Hotel, to 
 arrange a programme of proceedings. This having been done, the 
 following consisted of the Deputation : — 
 
 The lord MAYOR. (Great Britain). 
 
 FREDERICK YOUNG, Esq. 
 
 SAMPSON S. LLOYD, Esq. 
 
 W. STRANG, Esq. 
 
 R. R. DOBELL, Esq., (Canada). 
 
 W. MILLER, Esq., (Canada). 
 
 G. MOLYNEUX, Esq., (Canada). 
 
 R. GILLESPIE, Esq., (Canada). 
 
 J. H. O E LL, Esq., (Canuln). 
 
 W. WESTGARTH, Esq., (Melbourne). 
 
 F. T. SARGOOD, Esq., (Melbourne). 
 
 J. D. THOMSON, Esq., (Cape Town). 
 
 JOHN GORDON, Esq., (South Ans-tralia). 
 
 J. L. OH'^^-SON, Esq., (West Indies). 
 
 STEPHEN A. RALLI, Esq., (India). 
 
 Transcript from the Shorthand Notes of A. C. Shelley, Secretary 
 to the Association, 17, Parliament Street, S.W. 
 
 The following resolutions were handed in to their Lordships. 
 
 ^hc British iiitb Intcr-Calcrniai ^rabc ^nvifl Bnxon. 
 
 At th3 Conference of l>elegates, convened by the Dorrinion Beard 
 of Trade of Canada from the various Colonies and Chauil'prs of 
 Commerce, to consider the subject of Inter-Colonial Trade '%, 
 held at the Westminster Palace . Hotel, on Thursday .h 
 
 Pebruary, 1881, 
 
 SAMPSON S. LLOYD, Esq., being in the Chaib, 
 
 The following Eesolutions were unanimously passed : — • 
 
 I. 
 
 " That in the opinion of this Conference it is a matter of the utmost im.. 
 portance for the promotion of the Commercial interests of the British Empire, 
 and preservation of its unity and integrity, to draw closer the trade relationg, 
 between its various component territories." 
 
Australasia 
 
 II: 
 
 " That a Committee, representative of the different British Possessions an^ 
 the United Kingdom, be appointed to take into consideration how best to secure 
 the objects of this Conference, as expressed in tlie Resolution already passed, 
 »nd report to the Adjourned Meeting of the Conference to be held at some 
 future time, and that the Executive Committee's Report be circulated among the 
 Delegates summoned to such Adjourned Meeting prior to its being held. 
 
 The following were appointed the Committee : — 
 
 1^ Sampson S. Lloyd, Esq. 
 ri * T> •* • ' Charles Palmer, Esq., M.P. 
 ^'•^«*^"'«»« 1 Frederick Young, Esq. 
 
 (W. Strang, Esq. 
 
 (Colonel Gzo^^ski. 
 R, R. DoBELL, Esq. 
 Charles Churchill, Esq. 
 
 fW. Westgarth, Esq. 
 |J. L. Montefiore, Esq. 
 
 , ,. J John A. Bullen, Esq. 
 
 maia - ^ Stephen A. Ralli , Esq. 
 
 Sir George Chambers. 
 West Indies ■ Nevile Lubbock, Esq. 
 J. L. Ohlson, Esq. 
 
 ^ f J. H. Thomson, Esq. 
 
 ^"^* " I A. J. Macdonald, Esq. 
 
 Accordingly, the Second and Third Conferences were duly held 
 at the Westminster Palace Hotel, on Tuesday, the 29th March, and 
 Tuesday, 5th April, 1881, 
 
 SAMPSON S. LLOYD, Esq., in thb Chair, 
 
 "When the Report if the Committee was submitted for the con- 
 sideration of the Delegates, and the following Eesolutions were 
 adopted : — 
 
 Reboluiion I. 
 
 " That, considering the increasing importance of the Colonial Trade of 
 Great Britain, and that her Colonies are without direct representation in the 
 Imperial Parliament, and, considering, also, that Commercial Treaties with 
 Foreign Countries, whereby Colonial interests are deeply affected, are entered 
 upon by the Mother Country without adequate consultation with the Colonies, 
 this Conference is of opinion that in all matters of Imperial or International 
 Treaties where Colonial interests are directly or indirectly involved, an 
 endeavour should be made to ascertain the views of the Colonies, and that 
 proper weight be attached to their opinions.' 
 
 Resolution II. 
 
 " That it is desirable to form an Association, whose Head Office shall be in 
 London, to be called the British and Colonial Union for the consideration and 
 furtherance of Inter-Colonial Trade, and Trade between the Colonies and Great 
 Britain." 
 
Resolution III. 
 
 *' That, considering the advisability of utilizing, as far as possible, th« 
 machinery of the present Conference, it is desirable that its Members should 
 resolve themselves into the proposed As;<ociation, with power to nominate a 
 Council and to enrol, as members of the Union, any persons who sympathise 
 with its objects, subject to such Laws and Bye-laws as the Council may frame 
 and the Union may adopt. That the Council shall be appointed annually, of 
 which, at least, two-thirds shall be nominated by the Commercial bodies of the 
 Colonies and India, the Union appaintin;j[ the remainder. Farther, that in the 
 representation on the Council of the several Colonies and India, as indicated in 
 the foregoing paragraph, t'leir staple industries, as well as their import and 
 export trade, ought to bo taken into consideration." 
 
 Besoluxion. IV. 
 
 " That it is desirable that the powers and numbers of the present Royal 
 Commission for the Defence of British Possessions and Commerce abroad 
 should be enlarged, or that another Royal Commission should be appointed with 
 the view to taking evidence on the subject of the Trade and Commercial Tariffs 
 existing and in force between Groat Britain, Her Colonies and Dependencies ; 
 and that this Conference do appoint a Deputation to wait upon the Right 
 Hon. the Earl of Kimberley, Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State 
 for the Colonies, and the Right Hon. the Marc^uis of Hartington. Her Majesty's 
 Principal Secretary of State for India, to urge the consideration of this matter 
 upon Her Majesty's Government." 
 
 Resolution V. 
 
 *' That, considering the vast and increasing importance of the trade between 
 Great Britain and her Colonies and Dependencies, and that no department of the 
 Executive Government exists, which is specially charged with the consideration 
 of the relations unaer which such trade is carried on, this Conference would 
 record its opinion that it is highly desirabl ■ that those functions of the Executive 
 Government of Great Britain which especially relate to Commerce and Agricul- 
 ture should be administered by a distinct department, under a Principal Secretarj 
 of State, who should be a Member of the Cabinet." 
 
 Mr. E. A. Macfie, of the Edinburgh and Liverpool Chambers 
 of Commerce, proposed, and Mr. W. Westgarlh, of the Melbourne 
 Chamber of Commerce, seconded a vote of thanks to the Dominion 
 Board of Trade of Canada for taking the initiative in this movement, 
 and congratulated Colonel Gzowski and Mr. K. R. Dobell on the 
 success which had attended their eftbrts. Tbe vote was put and 
 carried with acclamation ; and a similar compliment was paid to 
 Mr. Sampson Lloyd for his able conduct in the chair. 
 
 The proceedings then terminated. 
 
 A. C. SHELLEY, Secretary, 
 
 17, Farliament Street, London^ 8,W, 
 
The Lord Mayob, in introducing the deputation, said that it 
 consisted of gentlemen who represented Cliainbers of Commerce 
 throurrhout the British Empire. They had held meetings recently 
 in Londcm, and had coiire to the following resolution : — " That 
 in the o[)inion of this Conference it is a matter of the utmost im- 
 portance, for the promotion of the commercial interests of the 
 British Empire and the preservation of its unity and integrity, to 
 draw closer the trade relations between its various component ter- 
 ritories." How that was to bo accomplished was a matter that 
 niu!»t be left for solution to the future. The deputation wished to 
 bring forward certain statements, which he was sure their lordships 
 would feel worthy of their consideration. 
 
 Mr. Sampson Lloyd : 1 have had the honour of being put in tl 
 Chair at several meetings of this Committee, although I am nou 
 connected with the Colonies, but 1 have nevertheless for many 
 years been deeply interested in the trade of this country both at 
 home and abroad. Not to detain you unduly I will first of all call 
 attention to the great and growing trade of our Colonies : a friend 
 of mine has tnken out the statistics of that trade, and he makes 
 out, that from 1870 to 1880 the export of British produce and 
 manufactures to our Colonies has increased by fourteen millions 
 sterling, while that to European States has decreased more than 
 two millions, and that of foreign countries elsewhere has decreased 
 three and a half millions, in the same period. All that shows that 
 our trade with our Colonies is assuming greater importance every 
 year. It is, therefore, of far more importance to us in the future, 
 to foster trade between this country and her Colonies, which shows 
 Buch an increase, than to devote so much labour F.nd attention 
 exclusively to endeavour to extend our trade with foreign countries. 
 Moreover, it is notorious that much capital is laid out and invested 
 every year iii the Colonies by people in this country. The Colonial 
 interests of Great Britain have thus an increrising importance every 
 year. And they have an important bearing on our fiscal policy at 
 home; on such questions as that of sugar bounties; our duties on 
 wines and rum ; our grain cargo legislation ; and a variety of other 
 things which 1 need not detail, but which will have to be considered 
 more and more every year with due regard to their growing im- 
 portance to Coloniiil interests. !Now, I may say that nothing but 
 what I may style, if you please, a sentimental feeling cf patriotism 
 and attachment to the Mother country, has induced the 'Dominion 
 Board of Trade,' which is the great central union of the various 
 Chambers of Commerce of British North America, to move in this 
 matter as it has done. 1 say this, hecause Canada has been for some 
 time past exposed to very strong and persistent efforts on the part 
 of the United States, to induce her to come under the United 
 States protective system — by which Canada would get free trade 
 with fifty millions of the best customers in the world, living at her 
 
own doors — while she would not lose our market for her own pro- 
 ducts, thouf^h she would bo required to impose United States' tariff* 
 duties on our exports to her. If this temptation continues to bo 
 held out to Canada while we on our part do nothing at all to show 
 that we appreciate our connection with her, and desire to draw 
 that connection closer, — it is in the nature of things that the United 
 States will at no distant day succeed in their object ; — at which no 
 doubt they would greatly rejoice. We, in England, I think, owe 
 to Canada and her ' Dominion Board of Trade ' a debt of gratitude 
 for continuing to resist that temptation. I think I may say that a 
 great many ot us are deeply convinced that the highest interests of 
 the Empire are involved in obtaining as much unity between its 
 component parts as we can, and if it were possible as great a 
 unity as there is between the various states of the American Union, 
 or between those of the German Empire. It is proposed by the 
 Association represented here to-day to endeavour to promote that 
 object by drawing closer in any way that we can the Commercial 
 relations between England and her Colonies, instead of allowing 
 them to be disintegrated by being diverted more and more in 
 another direction. If that is not done, I fear there is reason 
 to apprehend that some disruption of the Empire will be brought 
 about in the future. Canada and the West India Colonies may 
 becomiB absorbed into the United States, while our Australian 
 Colonies may form another Great Republic; thus leaving Great 
 Britain commercially isolated. I will now refer to the resolutions 
 which this Association at its various meetings have arrived at, and 
 which have already been submitted to your Lordships. First of all 
 with regard to resolution No 1, I think that the point there has 
 been already admitted by. the Government, viz., that in making 
 treaties with Foreign Powers in future the Colonies should be con- 
 sulted beforehand upon them. I am informed (since that resolution 
 was passed) that such is the case. 
 
 The Eael or Kimbeeley : Yes. 
 
 Mr. Lloyd : It is very important that it should be so, because 
 the Colonies of France are represented in their Parliament, and I 
 believe that the various ' Territories' of the United States (which 
 are equivalent to our ' Crown Colonies ') are also represented in 
 Congress by delegates who have power to speak there, though not 
 to vote- Then, we come to resolutions Nos. 2 and 3, which do not 
 concern your Lordships at all. Then, I come to Itesolution No. 4, 
 which is the crucial one. We venture to submit that it is impos- 
 sible to consider adequately the question of the defence of British 
 possessions without taking into your view those commercial rela- 
 tions which really constitute the chief necessity for considering the 
 defence of British possessions and Commerce abroad at all ; and we 
 ask you whether the Government will see it right to add to the 
 powers and duties with which the Royal Commission is charged, 
 that of taking evidence upon the subject of Colonial Tariffs (or of 
 
the Tariffri rather of the Empire) ind their bearing and practical 
 effect on the relations of the Colonies with one another, and with 
 the Mother country. I may say that the Koyal Commission contains 
 upon it men in whose judgment on these matters (although they 
 are not commercial men), we should feel the greatest confidence ; 
 and therefore we submit to the consideration of Her Majesty's 
 Government the desirability of allowing this Koyal Commission 
 to investigate the various subjects connected with the Tariffs of the 
 Colonies, what the effect of these Tariffs is, and what we 
 really require — we think it would be very beneficial. It may 
 be said that at the library of the Statistical Society, and at the 
 Board of Trade, they have those Statistics already. But the in- 
 formation, if there, is not readily available to the public, and I am 
 informed that the Board of Trade have only statistics on this sub- 
 ject, which go down to 1865. We think that this existing Royal 
 Commission, if you should see it right, would be a very proper body 
 to commit these inquiries to. 
 
 Mr. R. R. DoBELL : My Lords, as one of the delegates from the 
 Dominion Board of Trade of Canada, and having been appointed 
 by the Conference to represent them at this deputation, it may not 
 be trespassing too much on your time, and may interest your 
 Lordships to know what part our Board has taken in and what 
 prompted them to initiate this movement. You are well aware 
 of the actual suffering that Canada experienced for a period of 
 years since the United States abrogated the Reciprocity Treaty 
 which we had with them up to 1865. 
 
 Lord Kimbeeley: I never heard of that before. What is if? 
 I thouj;ht that you had until recently been rather wlU off in the 
 matter of trade. 
 
 Mr: DoBELL : Until recently we have passed through a period of 
 great depression, but we have within the past twelve months 
 experienced a great improvement in our trade. 
 
 Lord Kimbeelet : I thought your trade had been on the 
 increase for years. Do not your last returns show, in common with 
 the rest of the world, that there is somewhat a contraction of 
 trade? I read the speech of the Finance Minister in the Canadian 
 Colony delivered the other day, and I thought he pointed out that 
 there was a recovery, although not much as compared to the con- 
 traction for some years back. 
 
 Mr. DoBELL : There has been a decided recovery within the last 
 twelve months, and our imj'orts from Great Britain have increased. 
 
 Lord Kimberlet : Still not a recovery in a certain sense, but a 
 recovery from a period of depression which had affected commerce 
 all over the world a few years ago. 
 
 Mr. DoBELL: It may be true that we have not reached the 
 volume of trade that we had previous to the period of depression, 
 but the change in our fiscal policy has checked the mass of manu- 
 
9 
 
 factured articles that under our former policy were sent in and 
 flooded our markets from the United States and Avhich competed 
 with and sacriticed our local industries in our market; and there is 
 no question that our people are more contented and prosperous 
 under the new tariff. 
 
 Lord Kimberley : That is of course a matter of opinion. 
 Mr. DoBELL : Still, Canada did suffer, and her manufactories and 
 her mills were closed, and upon investigation we traced our depres- 
 sion to that cause. The Canadian G-overnment made several eftorta 
 to renew the Reciprocity Treaty with the United States and failed. 
 The Dominion Board of Trade havinji; taken up the question, passed 
 a resolution for two years in succession, that it was more desirable 
 for the interest of Canada and the Empire to draw closer the trade 
 relations between the Colonies theniselves, and between thera and 
 Great Britain. That witli this view a circular letter was addressed 
 from Montreal to all the Chambers of Commerce in the Colonies, 
 Bubmittiug copies of the resolution and seekinij their advice. 
 Having received replies favourable to the move meat, we issued a 
 second circular letter convening the Conference in London. This 
 resolution was submitted to the Conference held at the Westminster 
 Palace Hotel, and it was passed unanimously. Tou will note, my 
 Lords, that other resolutions have been passed, and while we could 
 not agree as to the best means of arriving at the main object we 
 have in view we were unanimous in agreeing that the present rela- 
 tions of trade between the Colonies and Great Britain were unsatis- 
 factory, and that it was desirable to endeavour to draw closer the 
 union for trade purposes. We also adopted the other resolutions 
 which have been read to your Lordships by the Lord Mayor. 
 
 Lord Kimberlet : Could you give one some notion of how you 
 propose to draw closer the trade relations of the Empire ? 
 
 Mr. DoBELL: Speaking simply for Canada, and not as the out- 
 come of the Conference, we might state at once that Canada would 
 be prepared to lake the manufactures of Great Britain and all the 
 Colonies on better terms than we would offer foreign countries not 
 granting reciprocal rights. 
 
 Lord Kimberlet : Tou would like differential duties ? 
 
 Mr. DoBELL : Canada would 
 
 Lord Kimberlet : I thought so. 
 
 Mr. Westgarth : I represent, with my friend Mr. Sargood and 
 others, tlie commerce of the Australian group. We have acceded to 
 the request of the Canadian Board of Trade to appear here with 
 them upon the subject of this 4th Resolution. 
 
 Lord Kimberlet: Do you represent the whole group of the 
 Australian Colonies ? 
 
 Mr. Westgarth : I represent Victoria ; but with these other 
 gentlemen I represent Australasia. Although we do not agree in 
 trading views with the Dominion Board, and they have already 
 
10 
 
 found suffioient evidence of that in our discussions with them upon 
 trade matters, we nevertheles's have had great pleaaure in meeting 
 our fellow citizens of the Empire and trom all parts of the worlds 
 and have thought that it would bo extremely useful to compare 
 our views, although we do not a^ree, and to come to your Lordships 
 for information which mi<,'ht assist us in our object. Your 
 Lordship has put a very pertinent question as to the resolution 
 which we passed. We certainly agreed, all of us, to pass this 
 resolution which is so general, although, as you said, what is to 
 come next when you speak of drawing closer the trade relations, 
 and how is the Empire to draw them together? Before coming here 
 we felt we would not go into that matter as we do not agree upon 
 the means, but we certainly were all agreed that it was desirable 
 to connect the Empire much more than it is at present. 
 There is a looseness in the connecting-cord all through. Indeed 
 with these almost entirely separate and independent colonial 
 governments, the chief bond is hardly more than loyalty of national 
 feeling. This i:i a valuable adjunct to Government, but Government 
 cannot safely be left to that only. Intercolonial Taritf arrange- 
 ments are intimately connected with this question, and the views 
 of the Colonies should be sought out, and discussion and considera- 
 tion encouraged, and accordingly we have agreed that an Imperial 
 Commission would be extreme. y desirable for promoting this object 
 in any particular way you think best. 
 
 Lord Kimberlky : Your resolution is for the promotion of the 
 Unity of the Empire, and to draw closer the trade relations thereof. 
 Now, I should like to know how you propose to draw trade relations 
 closer. Upon what principle? 
 
 Mr. Westgarth : As that question has come up, although we 
 agreed not to bring on the question of Eree Trade and Protection 
 at all, I think most of us are disposed to agree with one passage in 
 the despatches of your Lordship of 1871, 1872, and 1873, on the 
 Colonial Tariffs, in which your Lordship stated that if all the 
 Colonies agreed with the mother country in the principle of Free 
 Trade, buying in the cheapest and selling in the dearest market, 
 according to their opportunities, there would be no occasion for 
 Tarift' disputations at all. But it was felt that it would be ex- 
 tremely dillicull for us t& proceed into the details suggested by the 
 first resolution. I may, however, point out to your Lordship that 
 any differences of opinion need not prevent our efforts at getting all 
 theinformition we can towards coming to some dt-linite conclusions, 
 if such can be at all arrived at. And this we thought could best 
 bo done by means of a Eoyal Commission. I have only one 
 further remark to make. One of the points we should be very 
 anxious to learn about regards the extent of freedom to the 
 various Colonies, and we thought that that evidence could be 
 best obtained by means of the Royal Commission. I have had 
 occasion to read in your Ljrdship's despatches of 1871-2 on this 
 
11 
 
 (jueation and tbo Act which passed at your Lordship's instance in 
 1873, and I think I may inter that no step had been taken in 
 the matter beyond that .Act of 1873- 
 
 LoRD KiMBEBLET : Well, it is for the Colonies entirely to take 
 advantage of it if they think proper. It was an enabling Act. 
 
 Mr. Westgarth : Yes it was. AVell, one of the points we had in 
 view was to gather information tlirough the Colonies by means of this 
 Commission which we ask your Lordship to obtain ; to take evidence 
 either by an independent commission, or to extend tlie scope of the 
 Colonial Defences Commission now in existence with that addition 
 to their present duties. Then, as I gathered from reading these 
 despatches, your Lordship was disposed that the Colonies should be 
 united into a Customs Union, or, still closer, under one political 
 Grovernment, as by such union, whether a full union like that 
 of the Canadian Dominion, or a Custon,ri Union merely, we 
 avoided difficulties with the Differential Duties Act of 1850. 
 
 LoED KiMBEELEY : The object of the later Act of 1873 was 
 simply this. The Australian Colonies objected to the form of Con- 
 stitution which pievented them having any special tariffs among 
 themselves. As far as they were concerned we agreed very reluct- 
 antly at the time, because we thought the objects were not altogether 
 what they seemed to beyas differential duties against the rest of the 
 Empire, as well as the rest of the wurld, seemed to be contem- 
 ' plated/ but finally wo came to the conclusion that the colonies 
 should be allowed to take their own course, and the Imperial Act 
 was accordingly pasi^td. But it may be seen from the despatches 
 that we were by no means eager to pass that Act. 
 
 Mr. Westoaktii : I inferred as much, and also that you wished 
 to confine this liberty to Colonial groiips, or Colonies adjacent. 
 
 LoED KiMBEBLEY : We did not go beyond Austialia. The 
 Australian Colonies asked for this, and we thought they might have 
 it ; and alter all it has not come to much, for they have not as yet 
 taken any advantage of it, seeing they are unable to agree amongst 
 themselves. 
 
 Mr. WESTOARTn : One question now is, may distant Colonies — ' 
 such for instance as those of Australia and the Dominion — join 
 together wit hall the Tariff" liberty the Act now gives to members of 
 a group ? 
 
 Lord Kimbkblet : That is another question altogether; my 
 Act, if I may call it so, was to enable the group of Colonies to join 
 together to obtain a certain object, 
 
 Mr.WESTOARTii: I think your Lordship's wish was to have the 
 Tariff" freedom confined to the group, and not to be open to the 
 Colonies indiscriminately. 
 
 Lobd Kimbeelet: We never considered that other question. 
 It was not before us. 
 
 Mb. E. T. Saegood : I was not aware that I Bhould be called 
 
1-2 
 
 npon to speak, as Me. Westgirtb, the senior representative of 
 Victoria, is preseat ; but haviag beea connected tor a very conside- 
 rable number of years with Viefcoria I may, perhaps, be allowed to 
 say that, in common with other Colonists, I am anxious to further, 
 if possible, some scheme by which the bonds between the mother 
 country and the colonies may be stren<);thened. At the same time 
 I am bound to say your Lordship has fairly touched the pith of the 
 matter when you asked how this is to be done ; and when you bring 
 forward the fact that notwithstanding the ' enabling Act,' which 
 was passed at your instance, the Colonies up to the present time, 
 despite several efforts, have failed to avail themselves of the Act. I 
 am, however, glad to think that the recent Conference in Sydney 
 will result in, at all events, two of the Colonies (New South VVales 
 and South Australia) coming to some mutual arrangement. 
 
 Lord Kimberlky: I gathered from reading the report of the 
 last Colonial Conference that there was a possibility of agreement. 
 At least, that was the impression left on my mind alter reading it. 
 
 Mr. Sarqood : I think your Lordship is riyht. 
 
 Lord IviiiBERLEr : I gathered that from reading the pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 Ma. Sargood: I can only hope that the good example set by 
 these Colonies will be followed by others who, according to my 
 idea, are unwisely carrying out protectionist views in their Fiscal 
 policy. I refer, of course, to Victoria. The question of protection 
 or free trade we endeavour to leave alone, but if the Imperial 
 GJ-overnment can see its way clear to take any steps by which the 
 objects of this Association can be carried out, I feel sure that such 
 steps would receive the hearty concurrence of your Lordship and 
 the support of the colonists, who, whatever their opinion on fiscal 
 questions, would be happy to supply theluperial Grovernment with 
 all the information in their power. 
 
 Lord Ki^berley: You say, the question of protection and free 
 trade must be left aside? But isihe whole question that. 
 
 Mr. Saboood : I am well aware it is as you state, but I think 
 we may, at all events for the present, agree to set aside those terms 
 and seek by every means in our power, and by the appointment of 
 a Royal Commission, some means to ensure the closer union of the 
 various Colonies with England as a stepping stone in the direction 
 of a united Imperial Empire. There are other points which would 
 also merge out of this large question, one being as to what, if any, 
 representation the Colonies shall have in the Imperial Parliament. 
 This embraces a very wide subject ; but as one having taken some 
 little interest in public matters on the other side of the world, and 
 knowing the feeling of public men there, I do not hesitate to say it 
 is a question which, before many years, will have to be faced by the 
 Imperial Parliament. There is a growing conviction that represen- 
 tatives of the various Colonies (the Agents General, High Commis- 
 sioners, or whatever they may be called) should have an opportunity 
 
13 
 
 ot speaking (not necessarily to vote) in the House of Commons on 
 all questions of Colonial interest. I am bound to say that the 
 discussions which occasionally take place in the House of Commons 
 are read with mingled feelings by the Colonists of satisfaction that 
 their interests are taken up; and often those feelifigs merge into 
 amusement at the peculiar views which are expressed by the 
 representatives in Parliament, and the absence of information 
 evinced ret^pecting the Colonies. That the Ko;ise of Commons is 
 desirous of doing what best it can to elicit the truth is acknow- 
 ledged frankly ; but, on the other hand, the Members know very 
 little about the Colonies. This unpalatable fact is expressed by me 
 with all due deference ; but I must again repeat that the opinion 
 of most public men in the Antipodes is, that before long, the 
 question of having official representatives of the Colonit^ts in the 
 House of Commons will have to be faced in the Imperial Parliament. 
 
 Mr. Stephen A. Ealli : My Lords, in conjunction with Mr. 
 BulleU; ex-Member of the Legislative Council of Bengal, and Mr. 
 Macfarlane. M.P., I have been named Delegate at the Inter- 
 colonial uonference of the Chamber of Commerce of Calcutta. 
 The first question which the Calcutta delegates had to consider 
 was, whether, being free-traders, and representing a country which 
 more than any other is bound to free trade principles, they ought to 
 take part in this conference. After we had fully discussed this 
 point, and had assisted at the first meeting of the Conference, 
 we decided to join this Association, because we saw that 
 its object was to try to bring closer, if possible, the trade 
 relations between Great Britain, her Colonies, and India. One 
 reason moreover which induced us to do so, was because we saw 
 that while Canada has a population of four million inhabitants, who 
 are large consumers of tea, coifee and tobacco (articles which India 
 produces), the trade of India with Canada in those and other 
 articles is next to nothing, and that this insignificant trade is 
 transacted through England and through the United States, insteaa 
 of being carried on direct between India and Canada. The 
 Calcutta delegates thought that it was posbible, with the help of 
 this Association and of the Governments of England and Canada, 
 to make the trade between India and Canada a direct one, and to in- 
 crease the same materially to the mutual benefit of Indiaand Canada. 
 This was the reason which induced us to join the Conference and 
 the Association which has resulted therefrom. We think that a 
 closer connection between the United Kingdom, its Colonies, and 
 dependencies, may increase the trade relations between them, and 
 if such an object is to be obtained by our intercolonial union, the 
 result w ill be satisfactory to all of us. 
 
 Mr. Wm. Millee : Although representing only a Colony (Nova 
 Scotia) which was virtually forced by the Imperial parliament into 
 
u 
 
 the Canadian confederatioa and oblii^ed to subrnit to the Canadian 
 protective fi^^cal policy, I 3hould like to say a few words regarding 
 the sontiments entertainel by Canadians generally, in respect to 
 our inter-imperial trade relations, and I think that I can speak, 
 my Lord, \Althout any p ejudioe against these vie .vs which the 
 present English Cabinet -^utortains on this subject, as I a:n and 
 indeed always have been a Free-trader. It must be within your 
 Lordships' memory that, when two years ago, the still existing and 
 extending Commercial crisis first began to make itself deeply felt, 
 the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who, we know, 
 is not only a great politician but a great manufacturer, brought 
 under the notice of his colleagues in the House of Commons these 
 war taring, which had been so generally adopted by our Colonies, 
 and which had already been so injurious to the trade of Great 
 Britain, and that, in denouncing to the House of Commons this 
 ^ war of tariffs^ as he phrased it, Mr. Bri::^ht particularly alluded 
 to the new Canadian tariff which had just been announced by the 
 present government of India on finding itself floated into power 
 by a long gathering but suddenly developed wave of public opinion 
 in favour of the Canada First Commercial policy, a policy with 
 whose aims and objects your Lordships are doubtless perfectly 
 acquainted. Let me remark, however, that this new Canadian 
 tariff, which has been so much abused in this country, has a dis- 
 tinctive principle about it which, I can assure your Lordships, has 
 sprung from and was meant to give expression to a national and 
 patriotic motive, namely the principle that the duties levied under 
 its operation should weigh more heavily upon articles of American 
 than of English manufacture, and it has happened, in consequence 
 of this discrimination between the products of the two Countries that, 
 during the last two years, an increase has taken place in the 
 amount of imports from England into Canada, but on the other 
 hand a decided decrease of imports from the United States. It 
 had been felt by Canadians that the withdrawal of the old re- 
 ciprocity treaty on the part of the United States and their obstinate 
 and continuous refusal to accept Canadian in exchange for 
 American productions, except at very onerous and disadvantageous 
 terms, called for some decided expression of resentment on the 
 part of Canada, and it was believed that the only way in which the 
 United States could be brought to their senses and persuaded to 
 treat the Dominion in a neighbourly manner was by giving them 
 measure for measure. "Well, the natural and not unexpected result 
 of this action on the part of Canada towards their great neighbour 
 has been a wide-spread agitation throughout the United States, chiefly 
 by the manufacturing interest, in favour of a new reciprocity treaty 
 with tl Dominion, an agitation which has recently taken the 
 form of a very influential and increasingly powerful movement (inau- 
 gurated and promoted by personal friends and political supporters of 
 the president now in office) for the formation of an American 
 
15 
 
 iZollvereiu into which Canada should be admitted aa commercially an 
 integral portira of the great North American Commonwealth. 
 The Canadians, however, I can assure, your Lordships, are perfectly 
 loyal, the great bulk of the trading and industrial classes of 
 Canada are perfectly loyal to G-reat Britain, and they have no 
 desire to see this Commercial Union to the United States take 
 place, as they are afraid of its political consequences. 
 
 LoED IviMBEiiLEY : I thought it was the object of the new 
 tariff to draw the United States into some concession. 
 
 Mr. MiLLEE: Into a reciprocity treaty certainly, but, as yet, 
 Canadians have no wish to get one, I believe, on such terms as those ' 
 I have mentioned. 
 
 LoED KiMBEELET : I thought that it was the very thing they 
 aimed at. Is not this reciprocity treaty the very thing they 
 want to get ? 
 
 Mr. Miller : Not on condition of being drawn into union with 
 the United States as a part of an American ZoUverein, that being 
 the nature of the project for which an agitation is now going on in 
 the United States, and the Canadians see very well that if they 
 join in the proposed ZoUverein, it will soon come to be a political 
 connection. 
 
 LoED KiMBEEEET : I understand that the Canadians want a 
 reciprocity treaty with the United States, not a ZoUverein. 
 
 Mr. MiLLEE : Tes, but they, at the same time, feel they must 
 absolutely have, under existing Imperial trade relations, some more 
 intimate and closer commercial connection than they now possess 
 with the immense population of that great adjoining commonalty 
 which might confer an infinite benefit on Canada, at no little advant- 
 age to itself, by taking, in return for fair exchangeable value in 
 American goods, all Canada's surplus productions, but which now 
 refuses to take any of them at a reasonable rate, and thus creates 
 for Canada a situation such as would be that of Ireland if this 
 country were to isolate her and refuse to take any of her produce 
 except after subjecting it to a load of hostile and oppressive 
 taxation. 
 
 LoBD KiMBEELET : The Canadians say that by bringing reta- 
 liation to bear upon the United States they have created a 
 movement in that country for an American ZoUverein, but as a 
 Free-trader you are not in favour of such a project ? 
 
 Mr. MiLLEE : I am not, my Lord, and I repeat that the Cana- 
 dians generally, both the industrial and commercial classes of 
 Canada, as well as the professional, are not in favour of it, but the 
 principal reason of their unwillingness to enter into such a Union 
 is their strong feeling of loyalty to Great Britain. The Canadians, 
 however, firmly believe that as the British Empire has in its 
 possession a seventh part of the whole habitable globe, with an 
 inexhaustible amount of fertile land, and under its control a fourth 
 part of the human race, this Empire should present commercially, if 
 
IG 
 
 not politically, a strong and resistless united front to the world, and 
 that if this country were acting towards the world as even tJanada 
 has done to the United States, she would create a universal Eree- 
 trade revolution without wounding the legitimate susceptibilities 
 of the United States or any other country, and would obtain and 
 secure for the producing classes, not only of England, but of her 
 Colonies and Dependencies, a virtual Eree-trade with all the 
 nations of the world. 
 
 Lord Kimbehlv: Should I be wrong in supposing that you 
 would be in favour of a Custom's Uuion of the Empire against the 
 rest of the world ? 
 
 Mr. MiLLEE : I am in favour of a great Customs Union of 
 England with other countries, such as the United States and 
 Prance, as well as with her Colonies, and if I cannot get a greater 
 Customs Union or ZoUverein I would go in for one of the Empire 
 against the rest of the world. 
 
 Lord Kimbeblet : That is not Eree-trade, 
 
 Mr. Miller : Mr. Bright, in his last notable speech at Eochdale, 
 what did he say ? I had a conversation with him some time before 
 he delivered that speech upon this very subject, and he then said 
 to me, ' It is a grand thing you propose, Mr. Miller, I do not deny 
 it,' and at Rochdale he drew with enthusiasm that splendid picture 
 of a grand Free-trade league between all the English speaking parts 
 of the earth — territories, as he said, comprising a third of the world's 
 population. Now, if Mr. Bright, the prince of Eree-traders, 
 publicly used such an argument, even in a modified sense as that 
 I have laid before your Lordship, it can hardly be considered an 
 argument antagonistic to Free-trade. 
 
 Lord Kimberley: I think Mr. Bright hardly used an argu- 
 ment favourable to a league for proposing differential duties. 
 
 Mr. Miller: He did not probably mean to go that length, but 
 simply to say ' supposing we had a third of the nations of the 
 earth engaged in Eree-trade with each other, would that not even be 
 an edifying spectacle ?' or something to that effect. 
 
 Lord Kimberley : In Free-trade with each other, and with the 
 rest of the world ! I am very much in favour of such Free-trade. 
 
 Mr. Miller : But if we cannot get Free-trade with the rest of 
 the world, we had better at least have it between ourselves. 
 
 Mr. Frederick You2fG: Before your Lordships reply, I am most 
 anxious to say one single word. Feeling asssured of your Lordships' 
 sympathy, and that of the Government with the general objects of 
 the deputation, namely, to draw closer the bonds of union between 
 the Colonies and the Mother Country, we have been induced to ask 
 your Lordships to grant a tribunal before which evidance may be 
 taken as to the Commercial relations between this country and the 
 Colonies and India ; and also between themselves and Foreign 
 Countries; and have suggested that the Eoyal Commission now 
 
17 -, , 
 
 Bitting should be enlargcii both iix numbers and powers to take such 
 evidence, or if that is not pracl it-able, then we propose the alterna- 
 tive, that a new CommissioQ should be granted for that purpose. 
 
 LOED KiMBERLET : Quite so. 
 
 ]Mr. Lloyd : One of our resolutions was in favour of a Minister 
 of Commerce and Agriculture. 
 
 Eakl of KiMBKELEY: I will just Say a word as to the 
 last point. That seems hardly to be a matter for Lord Hartingtou 
 and myself. It has been discussed in Parliament, and it ia a sub- 
 ject which you should rather bring before the h ad of the Gnvern- 
 'rnent than before us. ^'ow with regard to the ma'u points you have 
 brought before us I must say that my views of Free Trade are 
 different from those entertained by the last gentleman. I difl'er 
 from those in this room if their views agree with those I h:ive 
 just heard. I think I hit upon the right interpretation of 
 these resolutions when I asked the question whether you did not 
 aim at a Customs Union keeping out the foreiiiner. One gentleman 
 referred to a despatch of mine which I am glad to find expressed 
 such sound doctrine, namely, that if the Colonics adopt nur Free 
 Trade policy and frame their Tariffs only with reference to fiscal 
 requirements, there can be no question between us at all. Being 
 a Free Trader, as I am, and bt^lieving in the soundnos^s of our 
 policy at heme, I desire to see it pursued by all our Colonies, and 
 I do not see that we can do more than give them that which they 
 are not always anxious to listen to— advice — and urge them to 
 follow our example, which T think is much more calculated to brin" 
 them round to our commercial views. If I were to ask how the 
 first i»e3olution should be carried into eflect, namely, 'That in the 
 opinion of this meeting it is a matter of the utmost importance for 
 the promotion of the commercial interests of the British Empire, 
 and preservation of its unity and integrity, to Uraw closer the 
 trade relations between its various component territciMes,' I should 
 not have the slightest difficulty whatever in saying how it ouirht to 
 be accomplished, namely, that there should be .i Free Trade tnriff in 
 every om^ of the Colonics. The Canadians have abandoned Free 
 Trade and adopted a protective policy, which 1 am sorry they have 
 done. If any Colony has reason to complain that there is anything 
 in our tarifl' offending against the principles of Free Trade, I think 
 they will find hearty listeners in the present Government. As 
 regards the request for an enquiry, I do not see any ground in the 
 argument put forward for such an enquiry. If there is any doubt 
 as to what the tarifis of the different Colonies, are, I should be 
 most happy to procure — what I am sure the Colonies would readily 
 furnish — ample evidence as to their existing tariffs. With regard 
 to their tariffs which are all settled by their own Governments, 
 
 B 
 
18 
 
 I must confess I think they are much more competent to take 
 a rational view of their own affairs than I should be in this room, 
 or than would be done in the House of Commons sittin^j at 
 Westminster. But there is no precise object to be gained by 
 such an inquiry, because you want something in the nature of 
 reciprocity, whereas, I think free trade is the sound commercial 
 policy, the tariffs are well-known in this country, and the policy 
 of the different Colonies is well-known. For example, we know 
 what the policy of Canada is, and we regret that the Canadians 
 should have pursued that policy, but respecting, as we do, their 
 self-jgovernment, we have not interfered, though we have witnessed 
 it with regret, and we live in hopes that they may eventually 
 come round to sounder views. I understood from the interesting 
 speech which I lately read of the Canadian Minister of Finance, 
 that from the Canadian point of view, the policy pursued has 
 been extremely successful, but I differ from it; and I cannot 
 illustrate such u policy better than b} repeating an anecdote related 
 by that Miniyter. lie said: * lie had been talking to an American 
 manufacturer of agricultural machines, who told him that formerly 
 those machines were procured from the United States, now they are 
 procured from Canada, and the American manufacturer^ Your 
 tariff has done for our trade.' That may be considered a triumph 
 in Canada, but the result is that the Canadians will have to pay 
 more for their raachines than they could have got them for from 
 the Americans ; and I wish the finance Minister could have / 
 
 read (which I think he could not have done) Monsieur Bastiij^'s ft-y 
 famous argument that * if you were to keep the sun out by Act of / 
 Parliament, you would promote the manufacture of candles.' I 
 mention this little matter to show that t'aere is the greatest possible 
 difference of views between us, and that being so, I do not think 
 an inquiry could be of any use, as there is no probability 
 of our coming to any agreement such as you desire. With 
 regard to the Australian Colonies, of course, in passing the 
 Act which has been referred to, our desire was to promote closer 
 intercourse between those Colonies which are divided by artificial 
 boundaries. We felt that it would be wrong when they expressed 
 a desire to make an arrangement between themselves that we 
 should stand in their way, and we left them to act as they pleased. 
 If they should come to an agreement, as I hope they will, and that 
 it will be one on Free Trade principles, then it will be a thing which 
 ■we shall all greatly rejoice in. At the time when the Act was passed 
 I rather feared the tendency was the other way, but now I believe on 
 the whole except Victoria, the tendency is much more in the 
 direction of Free Trade. We have, however, not the slightest 
 desire to dictate to the Colonies who have representative G-overn- 
 ment, what way they should do. I do not know that there 
 is any other point which I need touch upon ; nearly all _ 
 turn upon the first and fouith Kesolutions ; but I should 
 
• ' . 1*- ' ' 
 
 like to Bay one word more as to the first resolution, only 
 to confirm what was said with regard to treaties with foreign 
 powers. It is quite true that we have had that point carefully in 
 view since I have been in office, and we have made arrange- 
 ments with the Foreign Office that in all oases where treaties are 
 to be negociated, in which the Crlonies are affected, that the 
 Colonies should have the opportunity to make their voice heard, 
 and that as far as possible we should' not make treaties without 
 first of all their wishes being ascertained, and we have put Sir 
 Alexander Gait in direct communication with certain foreign 
 Governments with whom the Canadians wish to enter into some 
 arrangement. On that point I entirely agree with the Deputation, 
 and I thiuk it is of great importance for the unity of the Empire, 
 that we should take care that all these Treaties are carefully 
 cousidcxed, and as far as possible communicate with the ColonieB 
 in all cases before they are eventually concluded. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Marquis of Ha.btin3ton: As Lord Kimberley has expressed 
 the views of the Grovernment so fully, and as so little has been said 
 upon the subject of India, it is only necessary for me to say one 
 word. Although Lord Kimberley has explained that there is so 
 much difference of opini'>n between the great majority of the 
 Speakers of the deputation and Her Majesty's Government, that it 
 would be almosc useless to frame instructions upon which any 
 enquiry should be instituted, still, I think it is satisfactory to see 
 that representatives of different colonies and dependencies of this 
 country meet in London to consider and discuss questions involving 
 the principle of Trade considerations. As far as India is con- 
 cerned the wants, wishes, and interests, of that Empire are tolerably 
 well represented in this country. India is to a certain extent 
 governed by this country, and at all events there exists a Govern- 
 ment and an organization which is always ready to listen to any 
 representation that may be made in which any class of the com- 
 munity in India or any class interested in Indian trade, who would 
 be always disposed to give their assistance to any particular 
 measure which may be pointed out to them as tending in any way 
 to increase trade and commerce. I am sure that, as Mr. Eallisaid, 
 the Government in India and a'^o at home will be at all events 
 ready to give their most cordh;! eo-operation to it. As regards 
 India I think very little can be done in the way of improving its 
 trade and the conditions of its tariffs. I must point out that a 
 great reduction in the revenue of India has been made in the last 
 twelve months — a reduction of something like thirty-three per 
 cent. Sf ^E^e lof^ian tarifflmlas, generally speaking, I will not say 
 entirely, an excise tariff, but simply one pioposed for Revenue 
 purposes. We encouraged the Government of India to proceed in 
 that cour^ie, and I have reason to hope will in the end be found — 
 although there is ccusiderable opposition to Free-trade in India — 
 
■■ ■ I 
 
 s IT' ■ 
 
 |ao 
 
 to be one moat conducivo to their own trade and their own pros- 
 perity, I will not detam you Ioniser ; I would only say that 
 although there does not seem a probability, or a unanimity, in 
 coming to an agreement as to the primary object the Deputation 
 have in view, I will be anxious at all times to consider suggestions 
 that may be made. u 
 
 Mr. Miller: May I be altowed, Lord Kimberley, to ask a 
 question, your Lordship's aiiswei* to which would, I atn sure, 
 greatly interest the deput.ition ? 
 
 Loud Kimbeelly: Certainly, '' "' • 
 
 ' Mr. Miller: Do you think, my lord, that in the event of it 
 being impossible to retain the unity of the Empire without some 
 modifacation of England's Free-trade policy it would be better to 
 give up the hold upon our Colonies thun to surr^ nder Free trade 
 as understood by the present Government ? 
 
 ' Lord Kimberley: That seems to me a question I am not 
 called upon to answer here. T will say nothing with regard to the 
 general question of the unity of the Empire, because t' at is a very- 
 large political question indeed, and scarcely coniea under the 
 question of trade alone, but I think there is very little probability 
 of the Free-trade policy being reversed in th's country; indeed, I 
 believe, apart from everything else, that, in the present condition 
 of our trade, it would be absolutely impossible to do so even if you. 
 were to try. 
 
 Mr. Westgabth : I wish to correct an impression which seems 
 to weigh on your Lordship's mind, aad which I feel sure is a 
 mistake. Tour Lordship remarked that you thought we all 
 differed from the Home ?ountry's Free trade Principles; but one 
 remarkable consequence of our coming together upon the Do- 
 minion Board's invitation was this, that it was found that a decided 
 majority of the representatives present went entirely with the 
 Home Government in the matter of Free trade. 
 
 Lord Kimberley : "Well, I can only say that I judged and 
 formed my opinions from what was submitted to me, but 1 am 
 extremely pleased at what you have said, and I must say that 
 meetings of Delegates of difft;rent Colonies must necessarily be 
 productive of good results if only for this, that, I beliove, the more 
 the subject is* considered and the more the different Colonies come* 
 to understand^-each other's interests, the more likely are they to 
 adopt what ]/b^lieve iff* the sound policy, viz., Free' Trade ; and, 
 besides, there is no doubt that trade is likely to be benefited by 
 interchange of i^eas on the subject. 
 
 The loRD MUyor thanked their lordships for their courteous 
 reception, and t^>Deputation retired. ' '