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DELIVERED BY SIR LEONARD TILLEY, Piiuisicr of <^iniiittf, IX -* »•» ■ ■■•.;•. iilii m Sir LEONARD TILLEY, in moving tlie House into Committee of Ways and Means, said : — Mr. Speaker, in moving that you leave the Chair, and that the Hoiise resolve itself into Committee of Wavs and Means, I desire to make tJie usual financial statement. I may be per- mitted, Sir, to say that at no period in the history of Canada has a Govern- ment met Parliament with Lhe financial condition of the country in the position it is to-day ; at no period in the history of Canada has its credit stood so high as it stands to-day ; at no period in the history of Canada, possibly, was the country, generally speaking, as properoua as or more proi)erous than it is to-day ; and 1 propose, Sir, in the state- ments that I am about to subniit to the House, to establish that that prosperity is in a great measure dependent upon the policy of the Government adopted by Parliament. I know, Sir, that in the esti- mation of some of my friends opposite I have undertaken a herculean task. Some hon. MEMBERS.— Hear, hear. Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— Hon. gentlemen opposite say « hear, hear." In view in the predictions of hon. gentlemen opposite in 1879, .1 :; ; . t-^.i-.* ••HI ::!«:•. V^l (i6 \13V with rert>rence to this policy — wlien I am now aUlo to submit, after aa exporienoe of less than three yoara, its results- T t: ust that I will )>• able to coi'vince them even that this policy h-is had tmicli to do wi<-l\ bringing about the present state of affairs in llii > roui:tiy. 1 legret, Sir, that 1 was not in the House either on Tuesday or yesterday after- noon (circumtances preventing my being })resent) to liear the speeches delivered by the lion, raembeis for Houth Brant and Norfolk. I recollect, last year, that the hon. member for South Erant led up, as ou the present occasion, a discussion of the policy of the Government, and the effect of the Tariff, in advance of ihc: statement of the Budget Speech, and I called the hon. gentleman's attention, on that occasion, to the fact that it was not usual to pursue such a course. The hon member told me we had been so long in bringing down the Budget, six weeks having elapsed, he could wait no longer ; yet, on the present occasion, though not a fortnight had oLipnt'd since the opening of Par- liament, the hon. member was again to th- front, anticipating, as on a former occasion, the discussion tl^at usually takes i)laco after the financial statement. Sir, he was foliovred yesterday by the hon. mem- ber for Norfolk on the fiscal policy of tlie Government. I could not help thinking that the hon. meinhLr for Geutre Huron may, by-and- bye — when the time arrives so much hoped for by hon. gentlemen opposite, when the present Oppo:;ition ;;hail change phict.« with us — find some riv.als for the position ho formeily occu})led ; but Ihe iion. members for Sovith Brant and Norfolk — provided they adopt our policy, wliish, as I have stated on previous occasioj:s, is the only course for them to pursue in order to get on tlii^ side of the House — will have the advantage of the hon. member for Centre Huron, because they can point to the empliatic, impressive and admirable speeches they delivered some three or four years ago in favour of a protective policy. Sir, the position of the Government when thoy introduced what is called the National Tolicy was a difficult one, because they had a difficult question to deal with. There w»s necessarily a great deal of speculation with respect to the effect of the adoption of that policy, even in the minds of some of its friends and advocates. There was a question in their minds, as well as in the minds of hon. gentlemen opposite, whether, if it jjroved to be a protective policy, v.e would obtain sufficient revenue ; I res J in regl renl was i:r, the lied the Licstion Ion with Limls of ^r minds, ler, if it levenue ; if, on the contrary, it proved to he a revenue tariflf, wlictiior it w<>iild give the protection to the industries of the country wliioh was dr;!iianlea would not avail, and that the Government had a deficit to an- nounce to the House. But what I stated was the fact. It shows that the producing power of the Tariff, as far as revenue is concerned, was such as to give us, if we had the $700,000 of Customs collected in th« year j)revi lus for goods consumed in the following year, and $500,000 or $000,000 of Excise collected in the year previous in anticipation of the change of TaritT, on goods consumed in the year following, there wouKl not have been a deficit t)f more than $200,000, showing how accurately and how fully the estimates of the Government were borne out. THE SURPLUS. But, to-day, we stand here not with any doubt as to its revenue pro- ducing power, but with evidence ot tlie last year before us, with the Public Accounts and stiitemfints on theTalde of tlie House, shov/ing uot only no deficit of even $200,000, but, instead of an estimated surplus of $2,000,000, there is a surplus of $4,132,743 in tlie Treasury, as the result of itB operations. Mr. Speaker, the hon. leader of the Opposition, in discussing the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne (I regret he is not present, and we all regrel: the circumstances which render his ab.sence necfissai'y), said that he coald not understand why it was that the Government had asked the people to bear the additional burden of the sur[)luH, unless it was after the niivnner of tho man who was found carrying a lieavy rail nj) a hill, and, when asked why he was doing it, said it was for tho pleasure lie would enjoy in laying it down. Now, Sir, in this connection pcrnut uio to draw a contrast between tho effect that was jjroduced by tho iiicreaso of $3,000,000 taxation imposed by my predecessor, in 1874, and the proposition in 1879. In 1874, my hon. predecessor asked Parliauient to give him, in addition to what he could eolloct from Hio tluMi existing Tariff, $3,000,000 for the purpose of carrying on the public works, completing tho Pacific Ilailway, and other engiigoments which the Government was bound to carry out* What was tho result iipon tho revenue 1 In the year following a response was given in the shape of an increase of something liko if 2,000,000 paid into the Treasury ; but, from 1875 down to 1879, the average amount received frouj the Tariff then existing was but $12,500,000 per year. Had there been no change in the Tariff in 1879, the receipts .rom Customs would have been but a little over .$12,000,000. Sir RICHARD J. CAUTWRIGHT.— No. Sir LEONARD TILLKY.— Well. I will not simply say yes, but will prove it as I proceed. Sir, wht\t caused this ] It was caused by the general depression in the counti-y. You may impose a burden upon a man, but unless you give him footl and sustenance he will be unable to carry that burden. The hon. gentleman o}iposite (Sir Richard J. Cartwright) imposed burdens on the people, but giive them no food to supply them with strength to carry them. What was tho condition of our people at that time '] With the prices of all the manufactures and products of the United States at tlu.r lime exceedingly low, owing to the condition of that country then, the Tariff that he submitted was food and encouragement for the foreigner, but both were denied to our own people. When our peoj)le asked the hon. gtntleman for bread, he gave them a stone ; and the result was that, all over this country, factories were either cIoscmI or working at half time. Mr. MACKENZIE.— No ; you must prove that too. Sir LEONARD TILL EY.— Well, I can prove that also, because I saw some of them closed myself, and hon. gentlemen opposite asked me, within a year after, why we had not re-opened them. Men were withont employment, knocking at the doors of Parliament, knocking at voj of as cat tht of tht art! rnol po) 5 fho waa wn. tho oaotl , wy rpose , and o\it* Lng a r Uko 9, the 3 but 1879, )0,000. ,-es, y>\xt used v>y en upon 5 unable jbard J • food to lition of vxies and owing to ■was food our own bo gave factories because site asked Men were ■locking at tlie doors of llie Dopavtiuent of Public Woiks, asking for employment, and none could l>e got. Jt could not bo expected, umlor these circuni- Htances, tliat men could roH[)Oud to the requirements of tho hou. gentleman's Tarih'; for if they liad not tlie means they could not huy either the products of Canada or tho imports from other countries. Tho result was that, instead of obtaining an increase to the revonuf, tlio revenue fell to what it was in 1874, before tho increases were made, and the people refused to boar tho burden that was imposed upon them. IJ ow was it in 1879] We askod Parliament to give us such changes in the Tariff as would not only protect tlie iurlustries of the country, but give us an increased revenue. Was there a response 'i i stated at the outset that the response was ample, [)rovided the money Jiad been paid in for the year 1879 that belonged to that year. And in the year that fol- lowed, what was the response ? Tliey gave us a surplus of four million dollars and upwards, becauso we found employment for tlio people ; because, by cbtaiuing for them employment and higher wages, thej were able to buy more than formerly. Men who owned bank stock had greater value in it than in 1878-79 ; men who had tenements unoccu- pied in 1878-79, had tenants for tlieir houses, and tlio additional revenue thus received on all hiuuls enabled theru to buy more than in previous years. Men who were formerly working at half time and on low wages received higher wages and were working over-time. Farmers wlio had low prices and found sales difficult received high ])rices anl prompt cash sales. The result was that, while we estimated the capacity of our people to contribute during the year ^17,000,000 for Customs to tho Treasury, they paid in, voluntarily — because it was to a great extent voluntarily — $18,500,000. I say voluntarily, because, of the increase* of last year over the previous year, $778,000 was paid in luxuries, such as wines, spirits, silks and satins, and articles of that kind. That indi- cates very clearly that the people had the means, and, having the means, they contributed more in that way than before. In the finer description of woollen goods, for instance, which are not manufactured in Canada, thej' contributed .$400,000 more to the Treasury than last year. In the article of cottons, which pay 20 per cent., they contributed $300,000 more than in the year before. All this shows an increased purchasing power on the part of the people. We under-estimated their improved e •oii(Htion wlum wo estiinateJ that tlioy would only contiibuto ^17,000,- 000; tlioy coutilbuted .^18,500,000. One impoi'tant ftiuturo in this • innection is that, though wo uxpondod for Puhlio Works .$8,150,000 •luring Ihiit year, iind rtideotnod aboufc 5^2,000,000 existing liubilities, ijeariug G ]hiv c(Mit., tlu; surplus of over $4,000,000, with tho amount of deposits in the savings banks of tho Doniinion, ^1,750,000, enabled u» to meet these payujonts cliargeablo to capital, and still our interest ttccouufc was less by .$90,000 than the year before. But I qualify that in this way : wo paid .$90,000 leas interest than tho year previous ; but, if wo t iko the statement of tho interest that was due for the year, and •ount it as all paid — though it was not all paid within the year — thero would bo still .$25,000 less interest than in the year previous, notwith- standing tlie incroaso of tlie expeuditttie on debt account. Now, it has been said that this surplus was an unnecossar}' burden on the people, that it ought not to have been imposed ; but gentlemen who hold that riew, and say that it is unwise to have a surplus of three or four million dollars, have at the saine time stated that the United States are paying off iheir debt at the rate of $100,000,000 per year, and commend them for so doing; and assert that, unless wo look carefully after our affairs, we will bo subjected to burdens wliich, in view of tho fact that their debt will speedily ba wiped out, and they will have little or no taxation, will place us at a groat disadvantage with them. Well, Sir, 1 cannot quite see, if it is desirable, in the opinion of those gentleman, that thtre should be a surplus in the United States for the purpose of paying off their debt, that it is objectionable on the part of the Dominion of Canada to have a surplus, especially when it is collecled under tlie •ircumstances to which I refer. EXPORTS. Sir, it is customary, I find, with our friend?, opposite, when addressing sithcr their own constituents or other constituencies in different parts •f the Dominion of Canada, to refer to the present state of things as alone the result of large exports during the last two or three years, and, if I am rightly informed, the hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Paterson) stated that the present condition of affairs i.\ Canada was not the result of tho National Policy, but it was the result of large exports and a large receipt of gold coming into the oountry. Well, Sir, I find that tliat lion. gi'utUuuau and oilior lion. ineni))er.s, when tlioy are spo.ikinsj of tlio condition of tho country, or when tboy aro sjxjaking of iho prsition of tlio lato Governniont and of tUe present GovdrnmtMi^, with j't.'fori! ICO to their nxpondituro, aro very apt to stjloct one particular p(M'io I agiiinst another period ; one i)articul!ir year, for instance, during tho adiniiu.stration of the hon. gentlemen opposite against a particular year of tho present administration. So, in the case to which I am now i*eforring, tho hon. niember refi;r3 to tho oxfjorts during the past year, 1881, and he says that the present condition of the country is to be attributed to that laigo export. Would it not be well, Mr. Speaker, for lion, gentlotnen o[»po.uti) when thv^y are making a comp.vison betweea ^10 condition of tho country under the two Governments, and embracing different periods, that they shoul I seL.^ct tho whole period ; for instance, that they ahoidd select the live years during which our hon. friends were in power and the two or three years during which the present Government have been in power, rather than select one particular year. It might not be convenient for tho hon. member to do so ; but I have had made up a statement to show that the present state of tho country cannot bo the result of largely increased exports of the products of Canada. Mr. PATEllSON.— Hear, hear. Sir LP:ONArvD TILLEY.— 1 v;ill read them, and then I will chal- lenge the hon. member to sliow that they are not correct. In 1871, the exports of Ganadian productr;^ including Canadian manufactures, wc«re $7;J,C'2G,7'18 ; in \S7o, they were $07,490,89:3; in 1876, $G9,8G1,819; in 1877, :$G5,8oi,8S0 ; in 1878, .$05,740,131; or an average for thi live years of ;?a')8,57G,001. In 1879, they -vrera $00,089,578; in 1880, 870,090,191 ; in 1881, .$80,921,379; making an average for tlie tliree years of .$70,309,049, an increase per annum ©f $1,792,148. Now, Sir, tlie present state of affairs is not dependent upon the exports alone of the products of Canada. Considering the average population during that period and the average population during tho past three years, he will find that the then state of the •ountry as compared with the present, or the present condition of th« •ountry as ccnpared with its ccndition then, is not duo entirely, a.s h© •laims \x> is, to that cause or to causes quite outside the National Policy. I call iii-} attention to that becaufio it is of importance to show that. I iluring tlu) live Vfiira tliit our IViciulH ojtpo.sllo wcit! in powor, tlr.j vulu« of tlio ex[)orts, being proiliicts of (yiimula, was Imt .^Jl, 700,000 u year losa, villi a sinalhu' pojuiliition, tliim it was riming the tluoo yoixvH tti« prt'seiit Adiiunistiiitiou li.ivo Ix.'on in power. KXPKNDlTUIli: AND TAXATION. Moreover, hon. gmtlcincu very often take up tlio expenditure of 1877-78, by the late Ciovcrnnient, and they comparo it with tho ex- l»ondituro of last year, and then [toint to it as an ovidenco of tho oxtrava- ganco of this extravagant (lovernnjent. Sir, I am prepared to hIiow, from the data 1 have before me, that, if the hon. gentlemen opposite had collected from Customs, Exci.se and Stamp Duty money enough to pay their expenditure, and if tho present Adnjini.stration litid collected simiily money enough to pay theirs, upon tho uverago population of tho five years they were in jtower and the three yeais wo have been in office, the figures show that 23 cents ])er head less would have been collected from the people of Canada during tho last three yoar-s than during the five years that my friends opposite were in power. T liuvt the figuirs iiere, and 1 will give you the data on which they are made up. There were collected frrn Customs, Excise and Stamps, in 1874- 75, $20,064,878.90; in 1875-70, !i?18,6 14,415.02 ; in 187G-77, $17,C97,9?4.82; in 1877-78, }?17.841, 938.19 ; in 1878-79, .1(18,4 70,- 613.35; making a total of 893,295,770.34. The deficits during th« five years Jwere 85,491,209.51. If tho deficits had been collectetl and added to the sums above, it would have amounted to 898,787,0.")9.85. The average for the five years was $19,757,407.97. The aveiage popu- lation for this period being 4,050,674, the per capita tax during that period Wiis $4,88 per head. These are the figures and th(\so are th« results. There were collected from Customs, Excise and Stamps, ia 1879-80, 818,47 9,570.44; for 1880-81, $23,942,138.9"), making a total o£ 842,421,715.39. Deducting the surj)lus for the two yeari $2,589,515.30, leaves $39,832,200.03. The average for the two years of taxation was $19,910,100.01, being, on a population of 4.282,300, $4.05 per head during the last two years, as against $4.88 during tb other period. Now, Sir, it may be said, but you collected ni le. W^ admit it ; we collected $2,900,000 in the two yeais more than wjw 4 vulu« u year tmv of tlio ex- xtriivii- hIiow, .o\»gli to iollected puliiiiun x\ii been vve been urn thun T httv« iro miule in 1874- 187G-77, |18,47(),- .nii»}< tli« etcnl ami 7.o:'.y.8D. ig. If iiiiy hoii. gontlemua on th(i opposite sid* hlionld ()l»itt't to this it sliould nt^t l.c tho lion. ni( nibci' loi- JJutliwell (Mr. Alill.s), Imvuiisc, in a s[»(;t!cli ho niado in tho Wcbt n-jt long .since, he Jii.stificd tho colloction from the peoplo during tho iiaid tinii-s of less than Was i-cquiiod, and ho said it wa.s a ]tropor thing to collect less, beciin.sf, when tho tiiuo.s beninio b( tier, they would collect nioio to nuiko it up; and that in exactly what wc have lioen doing. It is a very com- mon thing to state — I have Iteard it stated in my own presence ijy a genthjman whom f am happy to see jtresent — that tho exptuiditure of the country has enormously increased within the last two or three years. I have shuwii that tiie taxation has n(jt increased, because wo require 23 cents per head l(>ss than before. J3ut of course tho expenditure ha« increaHod. IFow could it be otherwise/ If we compare the averag* (ixpenditure of 1874-7'J and J 880-81 with the averag.) expenditure for tho fivo year.s "revious, we liiul that our average annual expenditure is $1,229,3<'2 in excess of the average annual expendiUire of our prtdet5**8- HOfH. I adndt that fact; there is H" ilenyinjr it. It is a matter of record, and I do not wi ^h to leny it. Lut wh.n V">"ios necessary to do HOW is to show how this in "a.sed annual expoii.'lit«i<^ ^f^. --0,372 waH incurred, to compare the exjn nditm.. of tho previous w , a witk that of the last two years, and show that the preHenf, UovernuM m y been more economical than i ^ [)n'doce»sors by at leu^f Jl|f^•'l|A^0O0 per year. Now, wLH do we find ] We fiad tir Vi,from the 1st Jidy, il**74, to the 1st July, 1879, the expenditure was i^f 119,07^,28 ., or an f'veruU» of .$23,'J3r),856 per annum. From the 1st July, 1 ^'), to tlie [^ •'/ 'v, 1881, tho expenditure was $50,350,806, or an aver.ige ^n^nnal expeivji ture of $25,178,113, the difference in their favour being *h I have already stated, $1,229,372. And for what purpose were tlio.se 'Expendi- tures made'? In the first place, we find that in 1879-80 and 1880-Sl we worked an average of 401 miles of railway more than hon. geni*le- nioR opposite worked when they were in oftice. These 401 miles of railv«^ay involved an expenditure of $802,000 in excess of the expendi- tnrf fi>r the like service performed by our predecessors. Mr. MACKENZIE— Where were these 401 miles of railway] % 10 i^ir LEONARD TILT.EY. — I have tlie ligures from a return fur- ■ished me b) the Dopavtineui. of Kail ways showing that 401 mileawero worked during 1881 over and above the average worked by hon. gentle- Toen opposite. Tlicso figuies are furnished in a return from the Depart- ment giving the different roi^ds, and I am satisfied it is reliable. I will give the ligures in dolail if the hon. gentlemen want them. The average amount of interest paid on the debt dunng 1879-80 and 1880-61, was $7,G-18,00(), against an average interest paid by our predecos.'jors from 1874 to 1879 of §G, 806,507, makingan inciease in the average pay- ment of interest during the two years to wliieh I refer, since tlio present tioveninjent came into power, of $877,499. The increase in the sinking fund during the same period over the average paid by hon. giMitlomon opposite w;is $353,497, Tiiis was a practical reduction of debt by that .iraount. Then take the average increase of expenditure for Indians, and for'tlie managemrnt of lan^l3 in the North- West, as compared with tiie ex[)eniliture for these services from 1874 to 1879, and we find that we have added, on account of tli 'se items, the sum of |235,012. Tako Mext the exceptional a»iproj>ri,.tion3 made by Parliament last year, avernging $58,500, for the reliel' of the sulierers by fires in Hull and Quebec, and the relief of our l)i.,h fellow-countrymen, and the increased Qxpeuditure for the Census over their average, amounting to $56,079, and we have the following result — an increased expenditure altogether of $2,382,617 which lion. gentlen:'ii op])osite wei-e not called upon to make, against an average incrci;-e of $1,229,372, o; a difference of $1,153,245 in favour of the present Administration. If I add to that the $190,000 expended in tlio e.sLabiiidiment of post offices in the North- West and lUitisli Columbia, and in the Tost Office service geneially, for which we have added notliing to the taxation of the people — because tho difference between receipts and expenditure in the Post Office is less during the two last years — it would amount to $1,343,000. We flave, then, an answer to tho question which hiis been asked by tlie leader of the Opposition how it was Jiat in a speech I made in August, 1878, I stated that I believed that $22,500,000 would have been sufficient to pay the expondituies of tho county during tho five years the hon, gentlemen opposite were in pov/er. If you deduct the amount I liave mentioned from their average expenditure during the five years of 11 ■IX fur- a were ^entle- )epavt- I will Tho 380-61, SCOSSOl'S Lgo pay- present sinking atlomon by that Indians, rod with find that . Tako ast year, lull and increased $5G,079, ocether of upon to Fei-enco of H) that the ,ho North- geneially, I —becaviso at Olfioe is lOO. We ked by the in August, have been five years ,e amount I ive years of their AdnunLstration~of !$2;3,0OO,00O— we have just about 122,500,000, In other words, deducting those (expenditures, it will bo seen that I was justified in making Uio statement to which the hon. gentlempii alluded, because it is on that basis that we are carrying on tho business of the •ountry to-day. It is just as well that the whole truth should bo known in reference to this matter, and while we, on both sides of the House, May be addressing public meetings, in different parts of the country, wo may not have tho opportunity of meeting each other face to face as we do here in Parliament. It gave me grea^^ aatisfiiction to have my hon. iriend op[)osite on th(5 platform with me in West Northumberland, and I felt it an advantage — considering the position we occupy with reference to the financial position and the expenuditure of tho country — to hava My opponent within reach, where he could make his statement, and I wine, and thou leave the country, or those who were present, to decide who was right and who was wrong. It is desirables that wo should meet our constituents and the people generally on all suittible occasions, but it is not always convienent for both parties to be present at the same time. Sjinetimes there is not sufficient time in an afternoon, and I admit that sometimes it is difHcult to arrange that both sides should be heard on the same eveni.ig ; and ag;nn, previous engagements may prevent, but, at the same tiuie, ib would be more satisfactory to tho people who listen to these statouie.its if tliey could hoar, on the same •ocasion, the statements madt; by botli parties — the one ir.. opposition Id the Government and tiie otiier in its dofenco. Eut liere we hav« the satisfaction of knowing thit tho hon. goutliMniU opposite — gentlemen wlio are thoroughly postc^d in every wi;ak po^'nt in tlio wmour of tho Government, who are ready to inserL a lauco if tho op- portunity occurs — are present to hear our statements, and tliat wa can Mch prasant our claims in the prosancc of tho otlior. It will ba for the public to decide, after these discussions :u'o over, wlij are most worthy •f their eoufldenee. 1 know, Sir, that it lia:; been s:,id, and said truly, so far as the figures are concerned, tliat tho expenditure of 1878 W8US somothiug like $23,500,000, while tlio ejcpiiudiburo of 1881 was $25,500,000 — public attenbioii has h ;eii called to this fact — and tkorefore it is that I now point to statements, taken from the Public Accounts, of tho I'ccoijjts from Custom:; and Excise during the periods I 12 liiive iiivuiecl, to the facts us thoy appear upaii record, to show that nob only have the present Ailiuinistration taxed the people for the necessary ox])enses of the country less than our pitMlecessors did, but that wo have absolutely spent, for the services performed by them, more than a million dollars per annum less than they did. It may be of some importance, as I have already roferrod to the expenditures for Postal service, to call the attention of the House to the details. From 1875 to 1879, the expenditure for this service tn'^oraged §1,709,37.'"), and tho receijjts for the same i)eriod averaged 1;^ I, I -19, 423, leaving an annual deficit of $5r)9,9r)2. From 1879 to 1881 the exjienditure averaged Sl,847,.'')05, and the rccei[)is §1,302,303, leaving an annual deficit of $545,202. That shows an average increased expenditure of §138,130 a year, vrith increased accommodation to the North-West, British Columbia, and varioiis parts of tlie outlying portions of the Dominion, as well as increased postal facilities to the central and more populous portions, and an average increase 1 revenue of $152,880, or a reduction of the deficit to tlie extent of .§14,750 a year. Now, Sir, it may be well to call the attention of the House to one orjtwo other facts, to show why it is that we have been able to keep the taxation of th« people lower than it was during tlie time our friends o[)posite were ia jiower. In connection with this, I desire to call the attention of tht House to returns with reference to the working of the railways. From July, 1874, to July, 1879, the working expenses per mile of the Inter- colonial Railway — and I have this return from Mr. Tims, th« accountant — were, on the average, §2,059, and from July, 1879, to July, 1881, $1,987, or a diiTerence of §071 per mile. The .average receipt* per mile for the five years from the 1st July, 1874, to the 1st July, 1879. were §l,7G0, and for the two years from the 1st July, 1879, tj the 1st July, 1S81, §1,930, or an increase in the income of §170 per n>ile, and a reduction in the expenditure of §071 per mile. The averaga mileage exi)enditure of the Prince Edward Island Railway from July, 1875, to July, 1879, was §1,129, and from July, 1879, to July, 1881, §926, being a decrease in the working expenses of §202 per mile. Tho average receipts per mile for the four years from July, 1875, to July, 1879, were §049, and for the two years from July, 1879 to July, 1881, §017, being a decrease in the mileage receipts of §32, against a decreas* can con tha deb the pop the obli< ga^i( RaiJ debt mak 13 at not lessary liat wo than a f some Tostal m 1875 md tho annual ,vcii'agecl . deficit tuvrt ot* .h-West, s of the md nior« S80, or a w, Sir, it ,hev facts, on of th« e were ia on of tli« 's. From the Inter- ims, th« ), to July, e receipt* 1st July, , 1879, to $170 per 16 average "rom July, uly, 1881, nile. Tho 5, to July, uly, 1881, a docreas* in the expenditure of $203 per mile. Tliat I give, Sir, as one of tho items of reduction in our exi)euditui'o, which left us such a margin that it enabled us to incur increased expenditure, and at tho same time to diminish the taxation. There has bnon another statement put fn-wanl calculated very much to discourage and dishearten tho peo[>lo of Catiada, and at the same time to injure the Government ; that is that tho debt of the Dominion of Canada is increasing in a greater ratio than its wealtJi and its population, ajid that, looking to tho future, there is not a bright outlook for us financially wlieii the Pacific llailway is com[)lotcd, and all existing engagements fully carried out. Now, Sir, I think it is important, in the interests of tho country, that the poo[)le should quite understand there is no foundation for tho alarm thus attem[)tod to be created. I say, Mr. Speaker, that, looking at tho debt as it is to-day, looking at the position of tho dc^bt three years ag'), in looking at tlie liabilities of Canada when this Union was formed, and looking at tho liabilities that are ahead of us in connection with tho com[)l((tion of the Pacific Railway, I have risen from the investigation of this matter with the conviction strongly fixed in my mind that there is no reason whatever for alarm, but that there is the greatest ground for hopo and encouragement. It is a fact known to many members of this Ifouso that when tho fulatioa (which I think it is but right to expect we will, but which 1 have not estimated for here) it will be amjde to meet, at any rate, ajiy extraordinary expenditure that may be chargeable to tho debt which wo are not anticipating at the present moment. But, more than that, if the 150,000,000 acres of arable land that will be the property of ths Govermnent after handing over to the Syndicate 25,000,000 acres, and which is now established as fit for fiettlement, yields but $\ an acre for half of it (the other half being offered as a free gift t-a settlers), it will meet the whole expenditure of the (Tovernracnt on tho Pacific Railway, 4ind for . At ation. le Ac ran our Pacifif ,te, th« tion ot )0, and jike tha at is U annual a year ho ilobt \ but doubt, 1 surplus [Tiucli for 00,000 a a the 1st [> sinking nfiate the ars— til* )ulatioB 34.27 ppr opulatioa lavc not •a to, an? wliicli ^vo ,n tbat, if ty of the icves, and ;ve for half will meet Railway, 16 . and in the North-Wcst down to 1H1)0. I'' that be the case, then our debt, which cortaiidy is not alarming, ])rovided we realize from thes* lands the sum that I have stated, would only bo about $100,000,000, instead of ^^1 75,000,000, or kiris than twenty dollars per head. Under Ihese circumstances, Sir, I tldnk there is no great cause ft)r alarm, as far us tlio taxation of the })eople is concerned, growing out of the increas* of the dobfc. Then there is another mode of dealing with this question, and that is Iho interest wo have to pay. We paid per head of the pop- ulation : — In 1867-C8 Jl 29 In 1874 1 31 J In 1878-79 1 56J In 1881 1 57^ In 1890, estimating the net debt at $175,897,680, and the populatiom based on an increase of 18 per cent, for the ten years — tiiking into ac- count the fact that the whole debt of the DoBrlnion of Canada will the» bear but 4 per cent, instead of tiie interest we are paying now — taking that into account, and placing the interest on the debt at $7,000,000 per annum, the interest j)er head of the population at that time would b« at most $1.37, against $1.57j at the present day, and this estimate does not take into account the jirobable reduction of debt by the sales of lands. This, Sir, I think is an encouraging feature in connection with the f.iture taxation of tho people of Canada. ESTIMATED iiXPENDITURE FOR CURRENT VRAR. We now come to the estimated expenditure for the current year. I flubmit for the consideration of the House an amended estimate of th« receipts of the currt-nt year :~- Customs $20,500,000 ExciHo 5,600,000 Post Onico 1 ,400,000 Public Works, Canals and Eailwn\ s 2.460,000 Interest on Investmonts 750,000 Miscellaneous 900,000 Bill Stamps 100,000 T((al :S;3i,vio,ooo und an expenditure of $27,250,000, showing a surplus of $4,400,00f for the cui-rent year. I laid upon the table of the House yesterday a r supiilemrntai'V ostiniate for the ]»i-osont year, involving an increased expenditure, cliargeublo to Consolidated Revenue, of something like $1,000,000. That is composed of the following items : — Indians, $327,189. 1 1 need scarcely enter upon any explanation with reference to the circumstances under which this additional expenditure was made necessary for the cuirent year. It was referred to by the right hon. the leader of the Government in the remarks that he niado on the Address in reply to the speech of the lion, leader of the Opj)Osition.] The next item is workiiiij ex^jenses of railways, $312,000. That is not an increased tax upon the people. It is an increased ex[)enditure rendered necessary, I am hapi)v to say, by the increased business of the railways, and I am also hap])y to be able to state that they are yielding a revenuo equivalent to the increased expenditure, and, therefore, though it adds to the nominal sum of the expenditure of the year, it adds nothing whatever to the taxation of the year. Tiien we come to the immigra- tion expenses, $28,000. This is an item that was formerly borne by the Government of Ontario, under an arrangement made with that Government that tliey would bear two-thirds of the expenses of immi- grants settling in that I'rovince and coming by way of Quebec. They decline now to continup that arrangement, and we have to ask the House for $28,000 to j>ay the exjienses tiius incurred. The increased expenditm-e for the Post OlUce is something like $7r),000, but, as I explained before, it gives an increased revenue. Public Works, income and maintenance and repairs, show an increase of, in one, $98,336, and the other, $29,000, owing to increased expenditure in the maintenance of canals, in keeping tlieni \\\) and having them in eflicient order and condition. Mr. MA.CKENZIE. — Can the hon. gentleman give the canals se})arato from the railways ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— On Public Works for income is charged $98,3GG ; for maintenance and repairs, $29,000 ; Mounted Police, $90,000. This was also referred to by the hon. leader of the Government in the speech he nn.ade in answer to the hon. the leader of the Opposition. It is for the pro])Osed increase of the force ; $90,000' is to be expended during the present year, because a portion of the force will he furnished with their outfit and sent there immediately. The M 1 eased like Uans, 3renco made m. the ddress le next lot an ludered ilways, evenuo it adds nothing nmigra- orno by ith thiit jf immi- ;. They ask the nereased ut, as 1 , income 336, and utenance n'der and anals le c iicome is Mounted |er of tlac leader of |90,000- is the force lly. The expoiuliiine liiis ye;u- is, thoi'eforc, larger in proi)orliuu for the timo they will ho on ,riOl',()Oi> ; ;mirv.T:< of latid-i in the N-.i-t'i-W^.s*-., !-M0(),0{)(), making ;iltoi;;*ti...M' §rJ,fir)S,;SM). We piiipdio mrcfing this iii thi> foUowiuijf WMV : Hurplus lor die ycHr, ij^l, {'(DOoO ; (lt']K)HitM in ({ovein- ment Savings l'anl<;<, in ('vet'ss oi' jj.iynM^nts, i$-t,"»()Oji(IO ; iu Ininka, 1<> the credit of ilie Uf^ccivs'r (i -p' r;il ut omII, S,'),;500,000, out of which wo can t[\ke ihc n-nMinin;; .-; rulji),!)'.)!). '["uIt: inaki'S .?!:* '.i<)0,(K)0, without borrowing one dt^liar on l>>.m'!s <>r hi'lu'iit nres. rnoposKi) (iiASci.s in 'iiU': tatiii"c. Before I take ii|> the expenil'lnro of llie next yi'Jir, it will no convenient for me (o :•i^■e w.inv i.l'a of tlis pro[i,)se.l e]i.in;je.~i in iiie 'ra/iiJ during thiH Session. I think il. oest to do .so before I ent(-r ujion tlie eslini.ited receipts .'ind (-vponditurr-H (>f ne.xt year, 'i'lm foiiowing are the proposed chaiu'es in the Tai'iff. The ivsolutions nre 'iiiliU'enily wordi-d, hut [ have [)!aei;il them in this fi rni .so tliat hon. meinliei's may uuder.stauil exactly the eilk't of the rcHoluLious. It is !>ropo-'ed lo [dace upon the free list, taki g thjni al[)hah(«Li<'.dly, aii/'.toiuioal pr"par:itiojis ; they were free [)revions ti> 1 >7!', iw.w tliey ars! resi.,>red lo the li'ee lisr. Bees ; !)vas.s in sheets ; lliit/aniiii ni,?tals iu p.igs and oar;;; celluloid iu kiheebs. t\llu!oi 1 is an imitation ivory u>t' 1 hy e.iMneh niakci-.s ne.l organ huilderti ; it now pays '20 per cent. (,'hina (la}'. (Ihloredurn an a disintectant is n most valuaU'e avtiid:-, tin i us,' I cxr^nisively l»y rich and jKXJi', it has i)ce:i tiiought desiraMe t:) place it o;i tli;; ti'ce list. (JoffvX!, green {except by Act 42 \'ietori,i, ehipUr lo), free ; fowls for improving stock ; iron, .sauii or giobiihis and dry [lutty for po'i.diing granite, t^ninino ; this lia.s been done iu deferenev3 to the wishes of «mr hoa. friends opposite. Quicksilver ; spelter in blocks and p '^s ; tea (except as provided in Act i'2 Victoria, cha'pter 15). [Perhajts, Mr. Speaker, it would be as well, while i am on the tea osition to ask Parliament to reduce taxation. Wo stated that it was uncertain what efl'ect this policy would have, idthough it had shown that it waH a revenuo produeiii,!,' TarilV up to that period. Still, there wa.s some uncertainty as to the etlucts it wouKl have when tho new industries beinj^ established were in full operation. What was more injportant, 1 also stated that there had been |»etitions sent to (Congress fi'oni Massachusotts, from Maine, and from New York, asking tijem to appoint a Commission to confer wi*h a Commission to bo appointeroeity ; that, under these eircumstanoes. it was not desiral)le to remove any duties then collected, as l)y sueli au urrangt?mont no would lose $l,UOO,(Kl() revenue at least on natural pr»i ducts. If no arrangements were made with tho Uniteil States by which this njvenun would bt) int«.'rfered with, I stated tlia^ oil th" re-assemlding (jf rarliaiuent F would ask the representatives ot' the peojdo to remove two items of taxation, namely, the duties on tea iind collee. ^^'hen, in 1872, without any notice to tho pul/lic, with a duty on tea 50 [>er cent, higher than at present, tea dealers were found witli largo stocks on hand duty paid, when applications wt ro niado to the Clovernment to refund it, and which, under tho circumstances, the (jlovernmont then consented to do, at this time it would bo exceeding ly ditlicult to adopt that principle, particiUarly as wo hav»; a dinercntiiil dutv oi\ tea ei)n)ing from the Cnited States. It would have been ex ceodingly dillicult to decide as to its value, and whetlier it was Ameri can importation or not. The Covernment, therefore, decided, unles-?* there were strongiu' reasons than we could then see, we would not takr the course we did in 1872. And to diminish the dillicuUy whatdid \\v do I When visiting the Maritime Provinces in July, and other mem- bers of tho Covernmcut as well, we declai-ed distinctly what we stateil in l*ailiament — that we inteniled, among others things, to ask I'arlia menc to take the duty ofl tea and cotl'ee. And we matlo this statement so that every dealer in the country would be on the alert. Wo did noi want the revenue ; wo did not wisii any man to lose by a reductio.i in tho TarifVon these articles ; and we did not wish to bo subjected to thf be 25 ment States I coaid eeparat water.s,| this wJ I 'J )n of tateil m to vtain Wl\H 11 bein^ 1 also usotts, ,sion to umeut, sUiiocs. such ivu >y which oil th- itives ot tiji on tcii tl» a cUity tiutl witli .do to thf jiuiis, the xceetHnir .itVercntiui > l)oeu ex [is Auicvi ltd, unless A not t;\l<< hilt Jul V ithev moil!- wo statfi lask Tavlii^ stateiueiu |Wo did noi iductioA in Lied to thf «!;nhun'ii.ssau'nt ihaL occuirod in 1872 ; so wo i-o[)eiiU;d wluit wo said in I'uiliaiih'iit, ttius putting cvory num ou Lis guard, rrocoeding with ilie chuugt'H i:i thu TurilV, we also propose to phvce ou the free list tin iu (-•locks, i>igH, bars and shooti. Thufc uieaus a reduotiou of .$100,000 of icvoiuui at least. It is true; ou the tins used for the iisheries und « xportctl the parties nov/ obtain a drawback, but that is attended with i>ojisiderab]o diiliculty. There is a growing industry in this eountry, the cunning industry — tliis covers canned lish, fruits and vegct is for the present under consideration. We, therefore, make no change except that I have named. The further proposals we nu-ke .ire ; i.ead manufactures, from 2."), to 30 per cent. . Band paper, from 20, to 25 per cent. ; ships' hulls, when containing machinery, to remain 10 per cent., but the machiiuuy in the hulls to be 25 Iter cent. This is because we found that under the old arrauirc- ment there was really an inducement to })eople to go to the United States and build a vessel and put in her machinery there, for they coald bo both brought in at 10 j)sr cent., while machinery brought in separately was subject to a duty of 25 pin- cent. To sjiirits and strong waters, mixed, now paying $1.90, 20 per cent, is to be added. I think this was an omission in the past, because we fiml, from observation, lliiiL Iho tluiil oxtrucU ii!iiu)it">l iiilo tlK> tuuiiin owly pi'V I'Jil j.tT cent., w'lllo tlioHo who niJimifiotim! tlifiu in tlio country liuvo to jay $1.00 foi iilcliohol usoil \n tlu'Ir luamifaotoiy nml Inivo no |)iot(!i'ti(Mi wliatovor Oil I'ligH coutiiiiiin!; fhui h;i1L w,^ ]iii)[H).(> a duty t)f 25 yi'V cent. At prciii'nt liiiLj.s ill wliiijlj tinn {il tlio n-.;mufiu;tui(«r (»t' liim .sail in tlm Dominion of Canmla, if lie piM'cl'aS(H thi- cotton lia^v, li.i.s to i)ny tln^ duty ni'Ciii it, wliatcvr it may be. Clod; .^^•iningH, now Z'-> per c(nt.,iii"to li.' ri'diifcd t«) l 1h' at '2j I'ci- ('."lit. Wrought i:--n tuhii.^^-, oiu* ai.d thrcctjuartcr inch ami upwards, is I) l-c reduced iVoui 115 piM' eeiii. to If) pirrcnt. Mustaiil c.ik(i lA to he 20 [XT cent. Paialliu wax or stoirino will l>e p! um» I ah " conts per pt^und iu.stoaii of at an ml vaJcrdti duty. It Las 1 -m n iliiFicuL to un)V(; at a fair and Just vuhuition, aMd it i.s htvaii'^o < f thiit that this cliango i.s propos(Ml. Kiee, liidinllel oi- paddy, is to be placed at 172 1'^"'' cont. ; this is for iho [lurpo.st^ of fo.slct in^ — and it is likily to do i!, bc'oaust' tlu'iu are a initnher <. f steainer.s now chartt r<'d- a direct tiudi^ between tho Dominion of ('.mada and tl:o l']ast Indies. Ih.sides, thort' are bein-' erected in Montreal mills wIhmv we will obtaiii a bf tter artiel .•le ub a low'.r prioo. '^riie Customs ]>epirtinent ollieiids iiavi' f..>utul great diliicadty in fixing the v.-due of diilereut kinds c-f fiull. ti f-.-i imported Vo (»v('rco!M-Mr, 1 cc^ntK , [.luMi, 5 (uMiiM ; cheri'}-, I eeiils ; (piirc*', 'Jl cents ; <^raj)e vines, 4 cents. Silk plush or netting; T.-r gloves to be ' "> per I'Mit. ; harness and Icutlmi (ire.'isiiig will be phioed under theh(\(il ■.' Idacking, at 25 percent. ; beltn and trus:se8 will conie^ unlei- t!i" hea 1 if le ace.s and .susnenders. Ken I. tucky jeans are to pay cotton duty. Thi; is because edbrts liave been made to ent(n- tuticles of cotton under t!:e head of Kentucky jcan.4 Knitted cotton cloth w*; proposi; shall piy 30 per cent. ; black and lileachod cotton, tin co and six cords only, 12^, per cent. Tarpaulins coated wiili oil paint (^r tai-, and cotton bags made up by the use of tlm needle, to pay 30 per cent, A rpiestion has arisen in the Department ftH to what daiy shall In; imposed n[)on furs vhen in certain conditiotiH of dressing. Vv'e now pro[>os;) l(» add the woi'ds *•' wholly or partially drosaod " aft.'r the wdjd f<\v^, i^^ meet that dilllculiv. IVdsters and St conilitioii» partially l)lHter3 Hni't jAillows li ivi! l)i't'ii «'ntt!ri\l iit it lowt-r i'a»c <»C duty tfi.ui ' lattniHScx. We propose now tli.it tho duty on l)(»lst»;rs ami pillows hImII 1>m thoKivtir; as upon luattViissoH. (Uuss (prcs^icd or moiildtid) tiihicwiuo is t<» lo added to tho .'50 per cont. liiit. IJndijr tli«- luad of paints, tins duty ou orange niiuorul, dry, wliioli is inu'li tlu; ^;ain(^ article as dry wliito load, is to be reduced to 5 [x-r cent. We uIho pn^pose to add tj the list of variUMlicH, lacipier.s, Japan and collodinin. ThcKO cliangrs involve, a reduction in taxation, under head of (/iistOMis, of -i? 1,000,000. "Now, Mr. Speaker, 1 may »ay here u few words with n;ference to t!io proposed changes aifeetinij the receipts from ICxcise. It will ho remembered that a ehaii;;e was mad(; with refcrcnc<' to tho mo !o of dealing with hoin«! grown lobaeeo. U required tlia'-i all ])arties raising t^baceo should have aut.hority from a (lovi^rnment oiTieial tx) do KG, but we now propose to ren>;ive that restriction, and that all j>artieH shall hive the opportunity, and as u],»eidy and as freely, without license, to r.vise tobacco as tlmy have to raiso potatoes, as far as (lovern- niont restrictions are concerne>I. It is ])r-opoHed, liowever, to leave i\u\ amount which is eoll(;eted for twist the same as it now is, and to license parties in dilTerent pirts of the country, without the payment of any fo(^, to buy from tli'^ producers of toba-v^o, anywhere and everywhere, what- ever sui'idtis th:\v' miy hive for fale, and su,'h pitti.''? avIU s.'ll to tlio indlvliluals wlio liave the r(i;.Misi) to maimfacturt?. We propose that for the next t\\o y.-ar^, iust'ad (jf 1 4 cents, as now levied, ijier ponnd, 8 cents p;'r pound shall be hivit-d o!\ all to'sacco whieli i:j grown lU tlui n^niiaiuu of Cauadii, and, loi' the t wo years foil owm^:. 10 cents [icr ;> tun ]. This eliauge will probably a'fejt the revenu — altliotiu''i \\ (' cannot. nronounce exact on tl iis po m t— $'t(),00;.i the ih-Ht vear : after that the reduction will probabl)^ v.iw^o. fi'O.n .^oO.OOO, to •'ifS75,0.)0 a ye.ir. Then there is another question whijh has boeu brought, uu 1 n* ihj couMiderat:.):i of th' Qovernment by the commercial m^a and bankers of Canada. I refer to the legislation requirin;; stamps on notes and bills of exchange. la the preparation of this TarilT, no sj) 'cial consideration was giv:a It those who are cng.igud in business oxi.'ept iti the way of iajroawd bu.siness, and the prom[>t piymont of accounts. We propose ti relieve ihis class of the community of this duty, -which has given a reven^^e of *200,(M»0 a yc.ir. Aiul. AuIIkt, tl c (l(i\ criiniciit luivo dci'lt .1 to mk P.irHiiiniM\t, in tin- Sij|»|>!(Miioul;iry K-itim;it<'s, tor l?ir)(),0()() lo Iic ili;^ triltuttul in iljf slii»))e(pf a liounty to tlid lislici nuMi «f lljo Uuininion (.»" (y'iinailii, in lien of tlnj interest on tli • Fislicry Award. TIiIm hhI-jcc', Sir, has Incn a (liilioult one, Ik'imus'- iircsstin} has l)i»nn lirou'^'ht t/) Itciiii l)y Hoinn of (Ik* local yovciinnonts li v iho paynKMit (jf IIk* amount of llio lislicry n»v;i!(l to Liu-ni ; l)iit a V(tt( — and ii very lar^o vote- -of Parlia inont (k'clart;i'oncc of the Arnrrican with our own tisluMincn, it lias hocn considered desirahle to ;^ive a toniniije l;o(jiily I * every vessel (^ngagrd in tlie fisheries, und also a eeitnin sum to every boat, svliioh is oin|»loy( (1 in the fisheries and which is li<'('nsed for thnt purpose. And while this will encoin'iii;i' the fishermen ■ f the l)oniiiiion and extend our fishin;^ oj'eration;;- an important inde ry, tho exportn of which amount to over si.v million dolhus a y(>ar il is expected tlial it will increpsu tlie Imildiui; (f a (vrtain elais of vessels in tie I)ominifii of Canada, siieh as are to he fdiind in Massacdmsetts, and construetcl especially for this hraiieh cf liiisinc-s. Ouv people ^o there now — as they have ;j;ono e\ cry year since the passiij;(* of tin; Washin;4l()n Treaty,!!, well as before thit treaty was in existenc;; — and to jim't » els(;wher(» it> the United .States, to make airan;^emen(s with the owi.ei.s of tht; vtsseli find clippers which are adai)te(l for theij- purposes to man and .sail thcie on shares, as we have no vessels such as they re(piii(' ; consequently, the st"p which we propose to take will not only eiajoura^o and hemdil. our fi..lu>rmen in the prosecution of their occtijiation, hut it will al.so giv a new impi-tus to tho oonstruction of the class of vessels which aro re tjuired for thi.s (■] rcial work. Now, Sir, tho I'CFidt is that the proposition,^ wdiich I have just submitted •will entail u loss to the revenue froiii Ihistoms and Kxeise to the amount of .$1,')00,00() a year, while there will be an extra exiiundituro of iii'irt 0,000 for tlie purpose which 1 huv» named. This will, of course, reduce tho available moans at th(! dispo sal of the GovernnuMit to the extent of $1,500,000 per annum, and it may ilo more. Still that may be tho limit, though other circumstances may ro rrli:i|H, il will n-wv in tli<; iioxt tvelvo^ •Kinilis -'.vIk'11 tlu) rtncmio wliii'h is now n-cnivml fro \i inj;K)i'tc(l cano .sii;jf;ir will liodiininishod, owiuaj to tlio vii»or.)us |>rosncution of this indus- try. Tliiit this will ocivvsion »v loss of rovonnn ; but at tlif? same tiintjfm ini|>(ftiH will l»o },'lvon to u nvvnufa(!':uring industry wi\ioIi will ho of r«|»wiiil ixilvantiij»n to thn as;ri(Niltiiinl intorost, if it )hov(m a succosh. And when wo hoar in mind tho fact that wn havo at pros.Mit l>ut iMMjOOl) spindles on^icfrtd in th'» nuTinfafitnro of cotton, niid that before tlio doso • •ft'ioycar I.SSJ w.i aro likely to liave 100. 000 spindloa in oporation, tho prohahilitios aro that Wi> will ti it o])tain from cotton goods thesatno unionnt of rcvcnno which wi- hnvc i-occivod from tliis soui-co dn)in iikykntk am» i.xi'i-.NnmnH j'oii Ni:\r vi'.Ait losv Sir, I desifo t> co:no to the, ostima',t Wl th th eliunjos lu view, of the oxjiondituro and the euiinite.l I'ovenuo uf next year. It is WJtiujated that the Customs will yield next year, instead of ."?20, 500, OUO. which is the estimate for this year, the- sum of i-; 1 0,500,000 ; from Hxoise, $r),50l),()0() ; from tho Tost Office, l;'! ,500,000 ; railways and canals. 8-, 500.00) ; int(M-. on investments, 8700,003 an I inisc(OIanoons, .$000,003, making a total of iJr.-JO, 000,000. The ex[H.«iMU- turo, according; to the I'Cstitnates which are now laid on the Jahle of tho House, will he $27,000,000, or somewhere in that neif^hhonrlioo 1. The vote th it will ho asked, in tho Sup[)lomentary Estimates, as honnty to the lisliermon, will be ir^l50,00 >, and th"ro will probably he further ''^^' 24 8apj)lementafy Esiim.ites uinoiinting also to !5lf)0,()0o, making the gross Estiunlos, !B27,G(JO,000 fur luwt year. TIki itoms iu which th« <'X{»tu.iiuu-t; i.H iuoreasod aro thos{> which ;u-c piacod in ih»j SiipphunonturT Estimates for the present yciir, tlio IiidianH, tlie postal aervico, railways, antl various other ;,ervic<'K, and this will le:i\(« a surplns of $3,000,000. I liiive not taken into account the ])rob;ible recei|»t of u very nmo'i lat•^'*u• sum from tlie jUDceeds of land< to be sold in the North-West likely to be received during tlu) present year. The estimate of i-eceipl.s, iVom all sources, tmdcr the head of nii.s- cellaneous last year was som.ithing like $800,000. They are esti^mted this year at .ifOOO.OOO, and I have continued that e:jtitnatG for the no.\t vear, but there is every indic.ition, and it is quite within the rangf^, not of j>ossibility, but of j)robability, thtt if the CJovorntnent feel that they can reserve a sullicient an)otnic of land iu the distncts of the country that will 1)0 ie([uired fur actual settlement tlie (rovernment may be able to .sell for ca^'i, w Lliout interferin^' with the principle of actual jiettlement, a l.ir;^t (piai ity of land, and a very large revenue will be receiv<- 1 l.o.n it. 1 have jiluced, however, in t]ii>; estimate nothing more than the ordinary sum expected to bo received during the current year. It will be secu that we have to provld.; a v^-ry largi sum for ex- jiendiiure under tin.' lii'al of C.ii»ital Account. For in^Uince, the Min- ister of li(il\vays Iiis asked !i?S,'20(),U;)(), a.; hub:sidy to the Pacific liailw.iy Syndicate during the ni-.xL year. 'I'hat is based upi^n their own stati nu'iit sA' the w.,-! k llicy expect t(» pciTorm. I rather think Ihar. nil outside eslimate, but, at all event-;, whatevi'.r money may be rcquiicd to p.iy to the Syndicati; under fhe t and tlierefore wo will not r'.'fpii;(! to go outsi.Ie for »;.y loan foe t.hc purpose of meeting wliatev.M- tu.>.t ex])onditure n.ay be What i., nnn-e, hon. Minister of rn'ilic Worka cliii.n that they will e>;p n i, u.i i... Tajili:; Itailway now under con- tract, in tlic cf mpletio!; of the s. ions between tie la^id of Lako Suj)erior and Ma litoba, on the I-'.-iti-;!i Columbia section, on the canals and on other Tu'. lit Works chargeable ' capita!, ., 000,000 ; and in addition we an ill have to redeem $7,.310,00'>. I .sliould not say have to redeem, wo will redeem— we a: <■ not bou" 1 to i-edei m -*r),000,000 of ^'A it, bcaiiii^' J |ier cout. iiiLeivst, but we have given notice to Llie holders of those Sif'."), 000,000 uf ;"> pci- (.'eni. securities tliat we will redeem them :a S;;ptei!\hcr nvxt ; and $2, .'MO, 000 of (I prT cent, debenture.'^ fall dne ia England ; making altogethei .$10,3-10,000 that we will have to pro- vide for outsiiie uf the ssums to be }>aid to the Syu!,1.')0,0U0 bust year, |1 2,000,000 tins year, and |;1G, 000,000 for next year, without floating a loan outside t»f the Dominion of Canada, or any lo.in, indecJ, except the amount received from the earnings of iho people of Ciinada. ]t is a striking fact, to which 1 wish just here to casl the atttuition of the House, that the amount tliat is now b(;iu;r ivii I int.o the saviu'i^s banks of the Dominiuu of Canada every month is )it:arly !^400,000 over and above the sums withdrawn, luid lias been s^ fur the last three years. It is an important fact that 1 am able to state lure that in the three years and four months ending on the 1st February tiivie were deposited in the savings bankM and in the Fost OiYirv, rvi\ittgs Banks of Canada, not- withstanding that the (ro'>einment G, 000,000 and upwards. And this while we are investing in manufactories and other imlustries of the country large sums of money, while we arc seniling our n)onoy to •1 L'G MiUiitoba .-mil ilif Noith-WtsL mid investing it ihovo, vvliile tlio peDi^lr of Canada have invested in tlie lust three months §3,000,000 in the hond.s of the Canadian Pacific Itailway ; still, notAvithsianding this increased demand, v/e find tliat (lei)OHits liave increaseil in that period to over $;)r),000,0<)0. No I)etter evidenee eould he given of the i)rosj)erity (if the country than this, and 1 say, and 1 hope to jjrove it i)efore I ge^ thiont;l), that this is largely due, as I stated at the outset, to the polin-, the National I\>]iiy, whidi was ado[)ted in 1879. Ol'l>05(M'hap.'<, made myself as clear as T woidd deaire ; but, having slated liriefly the expenditui'o for the last year, and ineoiiU'; the expenditure an 1 estimated income for the euncnt year; and tlie prohnhlc income and expenditure for the next year — I deyire t<> say a few words wjtli ivfri-ince to the prf>diotlons that wei-e made on the opposite side ef tl.e llousi^ wlien tliis i)oliey was introduced, f think, if ny memory serves uv. that all of tlunn have failed, and ntteily failed. Ni>w, 8ii', 1 proceed to submit testimony in justitieation of my statement. 1 know it is a sti aig stateme!>t. It is going a great h'ngth t) say that they liave all faii'd. They eei-tainly have [' them was, iliat it was calculated 10 intorefere v/i'li tlie tratle l)etween the Dominion of (.'auada and (irea.t Ihitain, that the poli y was one that was iii the interest of the I'liiled Stat(>s rather than that (>f (Ii(>at Bri- tain, and thei'efure tlie IVeliiig in the parent land would be on(! ol gree.t dissatisfaction ^vilb tlie I )oniinion of Cannda, and the result, would Ije damaging to our ei'cdit. Sir, timi' solves many (piestions, and it has solved this. 1 ]ia\o in ii'v hanil a coniparali\'e statement— I have selected the yeai- 1S77, brcaust^ the ini[>orts for consun)ption are nearer in that year to tliat of 1S81 tlian that of any other year f could ihid tuider the old TarilT— from which I lind that the, gross imports for con sum})tion in 187G-77 were .$;ti),:i00,is;^. Deduct from that the United State.s breadstiiffs ex]>oj-ted, to the value of $4.5o2,0(l0, included in tlio impoits for consnmj)t)on, and leaves a l»ahinco of $9 'i ,737,740. Tlie i •iff thj bri Ell Ia.J prcj tiii 'J,l r:\thci wonM iir, ni\il L yprti" • cyire to nii10 e.stahlishcs most clearlv aiul a''7"(>e,s witji th d >\v. 10 eviiieiic;' siilimi Sir, that ttod it tho last )f Tarli It. tliat th has l> 1; 4i at tno last HOs.sion ot J arliamenl, that there lias lieoi a very lai-ge '.•elativo increase in tho imports from (Ii-eat Britain dmin.,' the two years over tlioso from tho United States. It was stale. I \>y lii" (iovern- mciit in 1870 that such would be tho case, lu'eause tin; in.inufaetorie.s tiiat the Oovornment exi>octod to establish in Cairida liy means of tho Tariff wcro thof^e tlu; ])roducts of wliicli w(^ had jdcviously largely iniported from tho United Stales. It was not with any ill feed- ing towards our neighbours tint tliis 'rm-iff was eslalili>.hed ; but wo •<-oro naturally gratified when we found that the policy we h;id intro Uiced to give additional emi)loym(Mit to our osvii peojib^ would inter fere less witli tho industries and intcucsts of (Irout, Ibitain than with (ho.se of tho United States. Such has been (Ih^ result, and we thu-! liavo tho answer to tho feir that was oxpi-essed (hat th(^ 'I'arilf in its ojioralion would effect our trade with (ireit Britain more than with the United States. Sii-, tlu>ro was another statement mad(.« ; it was, that under tho operation of a Tariff that imposid a duty upon brcadstulfs the forwarding trade betweoen tho United States and Europe r/flf thi.» St. Lawreuee would b(> diminisluii. W'.'Il, f was .able last Session to brinf; most eonclusive i-\ ideiieo to show tliat it had not produced that effect. Mr. IMAUKi'^NZiR.— What wbout last season ? Sir LEONARD TJ LLEY.— I am goiug to gi\ e you th-' figuns for tiiree years, and I will also .speak of Ia.st season. Mr. MACK I':NZrE.— Give us last sea.son. 28 «ir LKOn; ARD TILLKY. — 1 'juoU; iVoin thoTrailo an-lXavigauon ■iu!t\irris for the lust live veans, and I will xhow tliat it was not the Tarifl" that Ciiusod th« irduction hist 8c^^^^0!l. In 1^70-77, converting flour in- to b :;r]i<1s of grain, the amount of foreigii .jjraln exportod from Canada was G.r)G5,ir! [ Ijwshds ; in 1877-^78, the exports were 8,r)2 1,590 huahols ; in 1878-70, thoy wnv 8,777,:5S() bushels; in 1879-80, 1 1,808,019 bush- i]B; and in 1880-81, 12,113,720 bushels, or for the three years, from 187G to 187'J, an avera^'o of 7, 951,7 II bushels, before the dldioultiea said to be raised by tlie TarilF could havoexi.stvd, while in the two years afU;r the duty \va.s imposed upon breaditutfH the average was 11,97 r),O0O bushels'. Now, my lion, friend (Mr. Mackenzie) asks what about last wason. After the opening of navigation — or after July — there was a falling off, bit v.hat was tiie cause of it] There was a decreased ex- }>ort from the Uiuted States ports during that pjriod. At New York there was a falling off of 22 p.n- cent., l^iUimare about 21 por cent., Philadelphia 10 per cent., an I Boston, which was the lowest, I think, Hjnething like IG p^r c;mt. More thui tliat, there was wliat seldom occurs. There wis a ring wiii) show that the fear expressed by our friends opp )si!e that tlie St. Lawrence trade wouhl be diuiinished by the chLi.ll;^:' in tlie ti.si-al policy lias not b"en nMliz-vd. Now, Sir, tho next oitjection raised by lion, gentlemen oppoisite was, in tludr own language, the Tai-id" would (li,smember the Union. How was it to er tie Uniijii i because, as they alleged, that tlie imposition of the jjow TaiiiT wop.M iaenase the taxation of certain of tho smaller ProvinceH, ;;;k! tiiat t ; ; y would be knocking at the doors of the Dominion demanding 1 i ii > reU 'V( ! of tlie burdens im[)os-'d aj)ou them by tho 29 operations of that tarilF or porm'rf.sion to ultlidiMw Aom tlio Union, Let UH place togotlior for purpuso.s of coini)arison tlio two PiovinceB of Qiiehec ami Ontario — for a largo {lortion of the jrooils cojisutucd iu Ontario are cntoi-nl n\, llio I\>rt of Montreal,- -ami nliicvv togotlun- tlio Provinnos of N'",\' i5,ir,i:r.vi(;!c mil Nova S^^oUa, Iji; .-ansiv New llrnnswi.'k retu-iv.T;* froin l!i:« Wivstcrn [>.)r:.;i>n of Nova Scotia a l.vv:'>liv:ts, wlul) lii.> m ;r 'Irii/t^i of Hi. Jj]\n shodI/ largv'ly the m jrcliants ot t.lu> \vi'stf!-;i j.iit \>? [-^jv.i Sijjti.i, the r.-vouiM heing coll:'e(f>l in N(>\v nmin ;\vtr!<, irid p.-i'! !,y tlio e ,'ii:sii:;u;r in Xuvn Seotii.. Jfyoti tak;^ t!i<\s<' t wo Pi-uviiio^^s lo^;'i,!i ;r, jui.l thu Provinces of (")ntai'io and Qiicl-ee to.;elher, w':at da wo :i;rl ? T'lat uii loi' the TariJl" ofthohon. gontlemen o;)j)'jsite thcri^ wa.-i I'Di^H-t-.i'd j | .', onnts p-a* hoa I fur Cnnlonis in Neva S'<)(,i;i ;iu,l N"--\v o, unswi ■!; durii.;;- iiiojo li;'(^ years more than w:.s eo!h»ct('d iro.u th'^ p»>pV! of ( ) \t <;'i'.) an 1 (.^J'Ujh. Now tiik'.i U[\ the last I'ra le Ui-turin, ;rvl so;) w!;;it U Cm', oivyr.il'uj'.x of th > nowTariir as far as Llu' pi«o;ilf ■)'' l\\ >-;■.) l\.)'.'iii •;•-» arj conecric" !, and yon will lind the diircr.'n'.'O in llx' last two yiais is Lli:vt, i;is::eal o'i l)„'ip.,j; 11^ CtMUs in cxe.'S';, it i> larg-ly !>^•l()W tli- aiiiori! tlitt Iiii \> \><\ paJl by Ontari > and C^nei)(;e. Tiie hon tut;;ii',.'r (.ji'i^site (Mr. An;,'liu) cl ips his hands, and I am vti-y glad lie is pic;i>;' i v.'iih mi 'li iv'snlls. Wo nnist lake iui') (N'li-^i.li'i'a' ioii (hat in 1S7.)80 tlie iijpiil.ition of Nova Seolia and New I'mnswiidc paid into tlio Tn^asury a considerai)le snni of money in tie; slia[);; of dnty on the suj^ir th"y enis'iai;'!!, |.at r^'dai'd in Montieal, hnt, dnrin;jj tho pre-^ent year, thit lia.s h'l-n i-t^ver.sed, and the tuhles will show from th.is time forward th:it the reliners of Nova Sjotia and those of New |5ranswick will pay to tie; tJustoixis olli.drtla of thoae two Pi-ovinc^es a lar;^e sum oi' nion;'y on '.jixid.-j coesnimvl in Ontario and Qnebec, and, therefore, n>.aking evcvv aliowanoo foi- the duties that wonld have lieen paid oy the -people ol tha Low, a- Provincoa upon the articrles that arci pnrehased liiat, will he from Ontario and tinebee, it will he found that tliis Tari;T, inatead of havin:; an injurious oUect ii[u>n Nova Seotia and New Brini.swiek, has had a b.'neficial effect in redueing the comparative taxation, and it has had a ntill moro JiOuoficial effect upon tho Province of Prince Edward Island. It will l)o found that, if any section has to conii)lain, it is not the smaller rrovinces, and on behalf of whom the sympathies of thin House wcro 30 ir.voki\l ; tor tlic i)r;ictlt'iil etl'tct has been a conipiirative t-ciluctioii mther than an iufrnvsc of thuiv taxation untlcr the openvtiuu of this TaritT. Tin: i;UTY on coal. Then, Sir, wii wi-re told that this Taiitl' wonki be opprcstiive to a certain section of the Dominion of (.'anaili by the imposition of a duty on coal, while it wonlJ do no good \vlia((>ver to Nova Scotia or other portions of the Dominion where thcie arc hirgo coal deposits. Wlicn I was asked by an hon. mombor opposite in ISi'D what increase of the consumption or what demand ihc (!ovi>ni:nent tixpected co create for Nova Hcotia coal by tb' operation of tlio Tari'tf, I st.it.' I that j>robably w itiiin a sliort time the consumption of Nova Scotia coal iii tin Duuiiiiion ut t.^uiada vvonhl increa.'-:o to tlie extent of 100,0<)0 tons. ^Fr. ANGLIN. — .Vnd disidaoi! .\i.i 'I'i/ .'i .; > li i > tin' o.vteal-. Sir LEONARD TlLLKY.--YeH. I dlA : " to a very hirge extent" 1 said; or. if ic will please tlie lem. gt'iitlcursii muve, I will say "to that ext^mt." 1 did not suppose .Mr. Sprak^r. saoguiiie as I was with reference in t,lu' fll^'ct of ihis 'l\in!i", that in three \o,tr,s, l>y the IncreaS'-d industries aii'lliy the increased tleman I lor steam power, it would make a (hjmand v>lii>:h would re^ iudusU'k s lia'.'e uecii gio'.viiig uj) all over the conntry io such ail ext'-ut lliat it h;is rfpiired m )re than -lOOjOOO tons Uiore from the Nova Scol-ia miiets. an i his also i.'.nii'il a 1 vrg '!y increased amount 10 hj itn[)orte(l fiom the Tniti'd S: ites as wid!. Mr. MACKKN'ZLl':. — Will tin; Ik. a. g-nd •uuu .-.lat.- where ihat cual was disLributed in th ■ oth ■!• riovi:i;os / SirT.COXAiLl) Tl lAA'A'. I e.wuioL nou say where, but ] know sC!U'' of it reached C'uboui'g. Mr, ^[ACKKNZIli- iro.v nmoh i Sir LEON AR]) TlI^LnV. -1 kiny.v liait, because I saw it 'join'' ' Or? into u factory there. It was 800 tons [ think they tuld me they had {Muchascd IVoui No\ a Scotia, a>itl 1 h(;ard that some Nova Scotia coal was furnished to a factory in Ivingston, and it was declared to be the cliea{)e.st coal for .steam purposes ; and at ( iuelpli, also. I am told there was some consumed. Rut there is this on record ; that in 1877, 757, OOt] tons of coal was raised in tlui mines of Nova Scotia ; in 1S78, 770,003 to:vs; in 1873,. 7SS,L'71 tons, in ISSO, 1,0:]2,710 tons; and in 1881, 1 11(1,2 18 tu.H : au.l t. 1... a,M...l to U.a,, ,1,,... .us iu Hntish CJoInmbi. 214,24:] tons, against H.-,,5l2 tons iu l.s;.s, o. a total of 1)10,145 ton. ni 18/8, against a pro.la.-tion in l8Sl of l,-;:',a,:{;)l to„s, JM-ing an in- .:Toa.so of 4 i:,24tJ tons per anniini. Mr. AIACIvKN[Zll-:.--Will ,h. h.,.. ,..„tl.,nan nity -that 1.. when wc p.^ovhloa tJmt on fh.Mu.portatiou of sugar from any country that granted a houuty tlie ^^/ ralorent dutv sliouM he levied on the ,lutv p,,id valu,. of such sugar, au .*!,tOO,000 of revenue : u iiiiii tlio lojiiler of Lho Opjiositiou Htjittul lioro, anil at a imblic (Hiiiier in Toronto, tli.it uikUt IIks (^[H'liiLiou ot tliis itnlicy wo lost u0,l)U0 niur.' ti,,;;i it \vwi:l.i l,;i\i" ht'i-n if they had not iiajidite.! in .!,iiiii..ry, l'\'w;iiaiy ;ui;l M.ncli, l'ef)ri,' (i!" Tariir WHS chiuigt'd, vl ,vJi!:),(JU wntili nf .■cii^.ii- ii.ui L'. tli:)u th.'v n'u.illyini portrd ill iii.'.SiMhi- e. niuiit lis ; si> l!:.;t tlirrt; v.duLI r.ot have hfon an ii[)paront hy:.i of ,^:iUi0,!;0'.) i;' ihr ;,-i:]0'J,G()() !i ul l-r.-n credii'Ml to that year; and, tudliii-, il.at I'l.jni the rila'.u.; laid ici I !io T;iMo of tlio revfiMio ccd.-t L' d t'..r thi- l;..",t t,'\x niDhtiis of that iJHcal year it vv.is eleur ih.il, (he ioMiiiu; lo !->■ ictdvi'd ihrin:^ that year wonld ho (Mpial tn, ii iitl ;i'.o\e, lliat (.'./.Ir. lid in any pre\ i >ii:i year. Wiiat has l)',en tin; i-.;s'nr t 'I'l,,' iimins tiiat. I ain liuvV (p.intin;.^ can be found in tho 'J lade und Na vi^u'Lion llrlurus, and xli-y shew this: t'nvt durin;.^ tlio last yrar \v<; pai 1 into th<'. Tieii.'airy i'or diitiex on sugar ;ipir)d,'.ilO more liini tiie um-im.;'' f.ir th( ii\e yats prcvions iind under the Tariif of the lion, gi'iiih-nu-u opi o.site, ju.slifyin,:^' tlr; .statement I made, and .sliowing that ji>, I'ai- as lIk; ppi'Si'iit l.ii ill ii concerned tln-ni is no lo38, Of comjiaratividy no h)ss, ni'rt venue, beean.se if we add !f>>^00,000 to the value of tlio fius;ar imported- and that $S00,'){i0 is iej)ri'.sented by freight fioin tho West Indies, th'> labour in tho refineries, coal oon.snmed, interest on capital and other expenditures— and you add 43 per cent., the rate of duty col'ected in the year 1870-77 oil the sugar imported, with the .stims named tnlded, then it would only give §10,000 liiore than wo collected last year. Tlu^ro is the fact that S151-,000 moro were noeived during the last year than the average of tho five yeaiB j»revious ; so much with regard to the anticipated loss of revenue. A fow words witli respect t/) the cost of sugar to the consutnor. When I 33 made tho financial Ktii^oment lust yo.ir, f Imil olilidncd from reliabl,* gourcea a return sliowing the coniitarativo prices in New York and Montreal, when wo had hut two reliiieiioH in opeiation. I stated that as far as the prieesof granuhited su^^'ar W(Me concerned it appeared that tlioso paid hy the consuniujH in the Doniiniun wtie 'JT) cents per 100 Ilis. more than they wouM hav<» been if the snijjarH had Ix-cm imported under tht^ Tarilfof 1877-7H ; Itut I niijj;ht liave added, as lpropo.se to iuhl now, that t^ at c.ilouhition did not tak(^ into ae^^junt tlie prolits of ini|)ortera, the middlemen between tlie New Yoi k refiners and the nun who bon<^lit and Hold tlie sutjar here. Still, I lulniif (hut as re<,'ards granu- lated sugar, omitting the pioiits of the iniddli^nien, there w.is tJK^ diflfcrcMice of 25 cents per 100 lbs, tlu^ yellow lelined sugars l)eiiig much less than it could have* been intpoit(;ii for under the Tarirt'of IS77. I have now a carefully pi-epared return showiug the values during two periods in each mo?ith in New Voik and >ioMtreal, deducting the draw- ba -k and adding 30 cents per cwt. as the expense of iuiportalion ; tliis calculation does no*; include 50 cents per cwt. prolit, on transactions between the New York i-tdieer and tin; Canadian c(.nsumers ; giving the ConsunuM-s the beneritof that also, there was still 7 cents less charged to tbe peoph; of (Canada on that line (.f sugar than if it hud been imported fnun New York under the old Tiiiilf; adding the prc.lils of the niiddle- nicn, the saving was 57 cents per 100 lbs. ; and, uith respect to other r< lined sugars, the difference wis much great* i-. As fur as the revenue is concerned, there luus been no loss, and !?St)O,0()O were prol)ably ex- pended in Canada in refining sugars, in f'cights, and in cost of coal. What have we in return 1 I explained this very fully lust year, and Hbowed what tlie eflect of establishing refineries had been. There are now employed 1,010 bands in the cane sugar refineries, or 1,100, including tbose connected with the beet root sugar industry. Tlioso men, most of whom have families, recpiire food, clothing, tenements, and everything that the merchants, manufacturers, and farmers 8U|)ply ; those men are eni])loyed in this country at remunerative wages, whereas they would have removed to another countiy if it had not been for the policy that rebuilt those industries and placed them in motion. Then we have 400,000 tons of coal raised from the mines of Nova Scotia, giving employment to, perhaps, 1,000 men additional— 84 • 00,000 tuna of tlie 400,000 toub iucreuso in tlie proiluclioti of tlie Nova Scotia niinc'8 bc-ing used in tho refining of .sugur. 'I'luis ouiployinent WU8 given to tlio miners, ii niiiiket '.vas atforiKd to the coal owners, business was provided for vessels and railways, ()0,0C0 tons of vessels being employed iii oon\eying rasv sugar from the AW'Nt Indies to ditl'erent ])ort3 of tlu; J)oniinion, something like 1)0 per cent, of the whole coming din.'ct to Canada, instead of (i per cent, as in 187t^. Knij>loyment was also given to coopers, and, in one section of tlie country J visited, the timber on the land Inid increas t'd in vuhio because cf the denumd for the particular wood used for su<'ar cask;}. Ever}where, in the extension (if trade, increased machinery was )(f(j'iired and in oiteration, and additional emidoyment was given to the peojile. lion, gentlemen OjHiositt! are awaro that one of the refiner ies has not, so fai", been a financi.d success ; if it had not b«'tn for that the Moncton refinery would have been (pioted as paying enormous pro- fits. It will, howevi'i", give the ex-Financo Minister the opportunity of repeating that all those establishments will become failures when by their increase competition becomes keen, and loss would iiccrue to thos«' engaged in them. If our policy stood alone on this question of sugar refining, which is announced as a huge monopoly, 1 hold that the fncts 1 have given aflord an answer to t!ie statement and tho fears cxp-vessed with resjieet to this matter. Now, Sir-, it was alleged that this 'J'arill would fail either as a levcnue producing Tarift or as u protective tariH". NVliat evidence ha\'e wt3 that hon. gentlemen o})posite were; mistaken on that })oint ] There are various \\iiys of ascertaining the increase of in- tlustries as the eflVcL of the Ta> ill". 'J'he one which 1 will now present is to show how the fpiantity of raw material consume I by manufacturers has increased since tlie adoi)tion of this Tarifl". It being Six o'clock, the S^x-'akor left the Chair. AFTER REOESS. Mr. MACKl'^NZJE. — iJcfore the hon. gentleman ], roceed.s, 1 would like to a.sk him whether the ii< 150,000 proj)osed to betaken a.s boun- ties for fishermen is merely a grant for this year, or wliether it is pro- posed to ask a similar grant every year. 5.-. Sir LiCoNAKl) 'I ll.LLV. — It ih noi ^ joj. w'^hI to |f»vovivle^urit i»y Act of Parliament, biiL U) usk :m ajii>ropri,iLi' ^.t'lir l>y \eur, WW'ii tlie llouHe took recess, 1 was ciilii.i^' tUa»i»W *^ imlu;-Jt(i«'K in the country or give a^UlIliuiial i':.i[)lM'neat tv waoa- lactoiii'.s. KAU ( tiruN, ll!l)i;.S AM) WOOL. I will (iko up liist the inei'euseil imiiorl.s of the fullowin;,' rav, i.uterials used in luanufaetures, namely : raw eott ]>ounds ; in 1880-iSl, 10,018,7-1 pouud.i, or au iien-MS'! of more than double in the three years. Hides imi)orted in 1877 7^^ aiaouuted in value to .*i«l,207,3!)0 ; in 1H80-81, lo 82,181,88 1, or m ;trlv double. Wool iu;- ported in 1877-78 w;us (■.,L';)0,(J8l pounds; in 188U-81, 8,010,287 pounds. Wool exported in 1877-78 amounted lo -,lir),SlKi pounds ; iii 1880-81, 1,101,123 i)0uads, giving an increase of imporls of 1..810,- 000 })0vinds and a decrease of exjtorts, which shows that there was a consumption in 1880--1 of Canadian wool o\er that uf 1878 (>f 1,011,770 pounds, thus making an increase on the consumption of wool between the two jx'riods of 2.851,973 pounds. Ttic increased '.ahic of cotton, leather and woollen manufactures for the year 1881, as com- pared with 1878, tlierefore exceed {$0,500,000 on these threi- articles alone. Ni:w KAcrsons emidoyed first, Upon a very partial investigation, because it ouiv extended over a jjortiou of the Dominion, wc ascertained that tlr.ne have l>oen uinety-five new factories established down to Octobtn- last, since March, 1870, emjiloying 86 7,025 Imtids. Tho cotton fiictnnoH tli.it uro now in ooniHc of coiiHtruc tion, imd will |)rol):il>ly !»(> conipletod within twelvi; nionthH, willtMuiiloy .'{,()i)0 I'iinds in addition to tlioso I have iilmidy niontion(«<|. 410 odd fiictori^'H visitt'd und tli;it were in ojxMntion in IH78, Iohh tho n Kay-tivo thiit 1 Imvo niinuMl us Inini; cHtiildishod sinco 1878, hIiow an ineivuso of (Miiployms varyinj; from 5 to .'50 per cent, und with an avonij^o of 1 7 |»or oont. in theso 3r)() odd liiilorics. Thut 17 piM' c«nit. on tho mnnliiT of (^midoycf'H, lis fur iis we cm {jfiithcr fi-om tins Oensns of lH71,iind iniikinf» an Hllovvaiico for roihicliou in the niimli«'r omployi'd hftwtMUi 1H7I and 1878, would j^ive 17,H")0, in.ddiiuj LM,S7r> ;is tli" increuso of (>in|doy(U'H Hinco 1878. 1 will tidco as an illustiation t)f tho «'ir(H!t of tlm T.ii'ilT 01)0 of llic cities of the noininioii, to show whit itHopiMMiions havo launi — ] rofiM- to tho City y tho iinnii^rution a.^'nnt of that city, ami, if u y m.-jnory Horvos nu', this is tho i^fMithnnan who sent a n-'iirn to a nicmlicr of » Local (Jovcrnnient with reference to the einpU)}nuMit of men in tho iu- duHtries of that city, hut it was not ouiixjdied in t!io .stali'ineiit made ill tho n port of that olVicial. An hon. M 1<:M liKll.— It was Irrelevant. Sir LEONAIM) TILLF^V. It may he, hnt it strikes me it w(aiM be of sonje importance hy way of maki \'^ pnW'.ic the facts contained iu this paper and to show thero was oniplov uieiit for immi^i'ants in that locality. Now, we fnid that in 18S| the value of l»nildin_u;s occupied in that city as factories at that ihite was $1,071,100. 1 havo tlio answcr.s from tho of the faciorieH out of 4G0 visited remained the same as in 1878, l)ut were n(Mrly all working on full time, while formerly many were on short time. Fifty of tiio new faotoiie-t sUirU^d at such waives and no ehanj^'o was dttemed necessary'. In *277 factories the wages have been inciciscd from Ti to 35 per cent. The rate of waives (generally thioii'jjliout the Dominion, we all know, has bc( n coiLsitlcrably increased ; that s( tth s, 1 think, the i^uestion of wages. Mr. PATr.IlS()N (South liiant).— How do they compare with wages in the United StaUisI Sir LEONARD TILLKY.— I know, Mr. Speaker, that we have JKJCn obliged to send to the United States to olttain men lor our fkotori»'H and to pay more in some eases than they have to pay there. Mr. PATERSON. — Do yon have a tax on the labour coming in? Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— No; wo have no tax on the labour ooroing in ; we give them the encourage, ncnt that the hon. member ooniplimented hia leader \ipon giving some years ago when they increased the duty on cigars, when that hon. genthiaian rose in his plao<; and coniplimeuted the then Tinance ^Minister with increasing the duty on cigars ; ho «iaid it had brought thou.sands into the country, and it was juat tho iHjlicy to pursue. That is the kind of protection we are extend- ing, and wo hope he will give us his sup])orfc. Mv. PATHCSOX. --TlitM]iiot;itl<.ii is not oorivot, thai is sill tlio trouble. Sir LEONAPvO Ti f.LKV — Tlieu I sU.nd coiT(ct.-.I. 1 hiv,. !v;,.l ir, homowhero and I li.vve not Hcnx it con trad id ed, 3Tr. PAT1']R30N".— It was a finjuro ot si)eoc]]. Sir TiEONAllD TLLLEY.— The Ilamnrd has just hcvn put in u\^ liaiid, and I have no t of the manu- factures of the Dominion of Canada to the consumer compared with what they were in 1>T8. And F trust I may be :ible to use as strong language, or language very similar to that em[doyed by my hon. fricni-o\vu sheet- ings, biifc 1 li;ivo lun-e !i statement showing tliat brown slieebing and Idoachod .s]\irblngs nianufaotured in the Dominion wore sol I at from ;") to 7^- per cent, over tlie not cost price of the same articdes in tlxo Unite.l States, or 10 [ler cent, less than the price at which they would sell under the Tai-ilTof 1S77-7S. That is to say, that, with reference to this particular descriptioii of cotton goods manufactured in the Dominion of Canada, they are sold to-d;iy at a lower price than they were sold under the old TaritT. I have lioi-o a statement from Mr. Parks, of the City of St. John, with reference to ball knitting cotton, nianufictured and sold by him at ^^■^ {'^j cents per pound, delivered in Montreal, Toronto, FiOndon or Hamilton, while tlin net price of the same article in the United States in 40 cents per pound. I have in my possession the let- ters written to, ami the answi^rs written by, men engaged in this manu- facturo in Massachusetts, and they stat(! their lowest net prices. There- fore, tho consumer of this descri[)tion of cotton gooils has them IT J, pei cent, less than they had them in 187.^. With reference to cotton yarns, number 7 to number 10, in tho United States in 1878 th(7 were L'O/y- cents per pound, tlie vaw cotton being 10 cents ))er pouml. Tho same articles are nianufactureil by Parks, and they are sold in 1882 for 22 j^^ cents, the raw cotton being 12 cents per pound. TJiere was an increase of price in thii case of 1 ,"*„ cents per pound on tht> manufactur ed article, against an inci'case of 2 cents \v.)v pound on tho raw material. Carpet warps sold in tho United States in 1878 :it 22,;, cents per l)o\md, while the .same artirle is sold by Parks in 1882, at 2 1 .■'„- cents l>er pound, the increase being I ,■"„■ cents per j)onnd, against an increase in tho price of the raw material of 2 cents, showing that the i)rice was not really in excess of what it cost in 1878. Beam wirps, number 10, wcro 28,',7 cents per pon.nd in tho liuited States, wdiilo in Now P.runswiek in L^82 tliey were ;n ,-,;. au inercM.so of 2^^fj cents, agninst an increas.> of 2 cents. i)er [»ound on the raw cotton. Beam warps, in January, 1882, in the Ignited States w(ne 30 /^'Ij cents per pound not, while the price in New ("Jrunswick was 31 //^j cents per pound net, or less than 2 per cent, above the United States prices. These figures show that so far as this particular class of cotton goods is conc.erne.1 they are sold to the consumer at a less pi'iee than in 1878. 40 ftnd many of the tuticles are sold at the American prices, or a fraction under or a fraction over th(;iii. I may add that it waa not to be expected that the prices would be as low for the first year or two as th(^y will bo when competition is estaljlished. Take, for example, the year before last, when we had but two sugar retineries — those in Montreal — and look at the result which has followed upon the establishment of three others in the Maritime Provinoos. A year ago I had to admit, on the face of the paper submitted to me, that 25 cents per hundred more was paid for sugar than under the Tariff of lt^78. This did not include the charges by the middlemen. Now wo can state emphatically that the price is loss to the consumer than if it had been imported under the Tarili" of 1878. And I tiriuly believe that the competition in cost on cotton manufactures in twelve months, wjien we shall have 400,0(J0 s{)indles instead of 180,000 which we have now, will produce such a result that there will be little (lifference in the prices here of any desciiption of such goods and the prices in the United States. What our manufacturers siiy is, *' we can nuiaufiicture here as cheaply as in the United States, but we want the market. We are preparing for the sharpest competition, and we do not fear our friendt? on the oLhei- side of the line if we have the home market, and the com[)eLiti()n among ourselves will keep the prices down to the consumer." This is an important subject ; the h.-ader of the Oppo.sition referred to it, and, in order to make the peojile in the Mari- time Provinces see the eftect of this T irilf as he sees it, said that if a farruer -visited one of the dry gouds stores and bought a dress for his wife he woulil have to send out \A' the nine or twelve yards he would buy three or four yardi v-, t.) Ottawa. One farmer who was present said " that is not true, bec-n: ;e 1 tiwke what I buy home to my wife, I send none to Ottawa." However, he was tipeakin(? figuratively, like my hou. friend from Brant. Many gentlemen uud Kome ladies who were pn. seat uu i.ic mettings said that the main point made by him ag.unst the Tarit)' w;l, with referemie to woollen goods. He said that tlie poor nian would be compelled to pay 40 per cent. duty and \ipwards, and the rich man but 25 ui 27 per ceut. 1 have taken some pains to write to parlies who could furnish me with reliable information with reference to th'.' price of woollen goods ; and %1^, 41 a geiitlLMnan sent to mo, at the ro.qnent ol' a fiieiul, a lettor, of which he authorized n:o to make any use 1 thon;'iin ida wooIh, and nged chiefly by farmer , lalumrers, 8 aiityimn, and luec hanics in coimtiy distrid-, aio as low in prict? now as at any time during tt n yeain previous ti> 1 STf^. Tiiis refers to remilar BalCH. No doul>t during the very severe de[»r.K>ion sj) i i!»l liniis may have Ixvn sold at a concession to force sales, bat the average price of such goods for 1880- 1881 and 18S2 is lower than the average of ten years previous to 1878. •' 2nd. Medium and fine wool fabrics made ex' to hilaic, colour and liiiLsh, and oti^lit on this account to bring more money instead of less. "3rd. Flannels are now as low in price as at any time during the past fourteen ye:ir.s, ecept for a short time during 1H77 and I87s, when, and. r the pressure of hard times, ,1 hreak in price t »ok |)lao i hy the largest niaiiui'actuier of 8ueh goods attempting to run out the sm iUer makers. This faihd, and the price has hince bean steadv. N.> .' Ivanoc has tik n place, although wool bupplics aud wag 8 all have advanced very eonsiderahly. ' •' 4ih. Blankets are as low in price now a: {\iiiy were any time during ten years previous to 1878. During 1880 Ihey wt-to low, r in price than at any former timo jn Omada. Our Cmalian wo«ls werti then very low in price, about 21 cents per lb. ; since then wool sui;a!)Ie lor b ankcts has avernged n(»t less than 29 cents to 30 cents, and bhirikets have advaacjd in cons qucnce. F(a' la-t yt ar and this pf'.BCut year prices are as low HS imy y> ar isince 18(J9. being c< mpelled by foreign competition to give up making blankets lor 1875, 1870. 1877, 1878, havo no record of prices for these lour yeaie.'' Mr. Speaker, tli;it .spe.ik.i strongly with veferoncc to tlio price and Viiliie of tho goods made in the l);)minion of Canada lar;^(;ly from wool ^ro'.vn in Canada, and coiisumod by tho masses of tho poofdo of Canada ; and, as I stated in tho early part of my spoooh, while tho nnsses of thn people have been buying their woollen good? at prices as low a.s thoy wore before tlio change of tlio Tariff, it will bo found by roforence to tht^ trade returns that wo received ."-U 11,^^00 more from the finer descriptions of woollen goods worn by the wealthier people thin wo did tho year previous, and an average of from 7^ to 9 por cent, duty moi-o than we did iii 1878 from tho consumers of tho finer good.s, showing clearly that, iustead of the rich man goor man paying more as a rule, the p )()r mm g.>t < his clothing as cheap or cheaper than he did before, while the rich man ha.'? ]>aid from 7 to 10 ])er cent, additional duty. Mr. jNIILLS. — 'I'hen ('anila never was a sacrifice maiket. Sir LEONARD TTLT-KV. - Yos, it was ; that was tho trouble. I asked one of tlie nunufactur.»rs, How is that, althoiigh wages are higlier, prices are lower I 11 ' said to mo : "The f.ict is, we uso.i to have to spond a large sum in employing runners to go throughout; the country to make sales ; we h)-;t a largo amount of interest on the stocks we had in hand and could not .s.'Il, in s[)ite of this increased expense ; but now we have doubled om- production, have order's ahead, our ex- ])ensos of management have not incroast'il, and wo can sell at smalI(M' ]u'ofits than wo could before, and yet in cons(»quenco of the increased production we have largn* i>rofits at tho end of the year." Thus we sen that while wo are btulding up these industries the people are getting cheaper good.s and the manufacturers are making more money than they were before. Now, Sir, as I ha,-e dealt with the cotton anse articles— a gentleman who is. T beliove, known to many hon. members of this House — Mr. E. K. Green. He, amo.ng otluM's, sent me a reply, and which lie said I might make whatever use of F pleased ; and as he spenks very strongly un I deji,ledly with respect to the o feet of this 43 policy on pricea I giv>' him u.-; xa luitliority on the ;i'al.ject. T know Ii.- is ft somewhat proniinont lunu iu tlio (Jify oi .Montroal. Mr. i\[ACKHNZlFi.-~A proniiixeufc ProioctioniHl. Sir LEONARD TILLHV.— Yo.h ; ani);-:it'< .^i'l ■ of tho Hou.so, and who, niulor theao circunr^un'O!, woi'Jil niit oxc<>i»i fm' tho National Policy maintain this C}ov;m':ui\(niI Id noWiM-. Mr. MACKENZIE.— Tho hou. .^^ontlomm. is noi fiir. 1 s:,i,l Ii- is a decided Protectionist. Sir LEONARD TILLEY. —Exactly so. 'VUi-n ]w. . oiild nut Iiav.- had any [)olitical o'.'ject iu wriling a liittoi- liki' [\\\^. 1 saiil ; •• 1' Indiovo you aro en!j;agod iu tho maimfaciurt; of hats suv 1 c,i;>-!, ar.d thai chi.ss of material," the relative cost of which to Iho lo.'.-mni 'v 1 had nor n[) to lliat time roceiveil any iuforuvatiou aluvaf. 1. v,';is uo ler th^' impres=iiou Uiat somo cap^, n)ado iVoui the coai'.se woolh.'U 'orods, c^ost a litfclo more, and I was anxious toii^'t l!u''rnnl io!\ ou tl; > s I'ojr'c'-, so r wi'oto to him. :\{r. M ACJIvENZFE.- -.AVhal, i ^ tho duly on ],a; : and •• tps >■ Sir LEONARD TILId'.V. -'i'v/eidy-iiN o percent, ilis reply \va> as f;dli>ws : — •■■ llA>fii.reN, I'V-Iiiuary 3.tl. 18.1-!. '• T have ffrne over .'uul carcrully ooiupared tiie piico.-i of tlie viuioiis liius (.f caps fvnd felt liats maiuifcKtiircd by u.s in 1.S78 and ISSl, and I luid as iiu> rcault vi my investigation that llio avcnij^o selling piico oi" oui' gi)ods {inring tho pa.-t year has boon louw th;ui in 1873, for Iho samo clas.3 of good-. Thi-i U tho ca.-i- not only in those h'ues of goods ou wliich tli? advance rf di.ty has l)evn KJigh!. liiit also applie-t to those coarse, lusavy \vooi!cn-i on -which tlio duty has b(!cn considoiably incrca'^od. Tlicso resulls liave bciMj attained by an increaseii rrotoction of lias class of goods in conscinienco of tlic piesiiit Taiiff, and by ;» natural law of manufaclure?, whereby a larger quantity of a givtn article eaa It; produced and sold to the consumor at a less price than a sniailcr quantity of tie' Kame article. In other wouls, owing to tlio enlarged markit atroided by i»rotc( - lion and the keenness of home competition wo a-c _al lo to supply tlie country generally with coarse woollen caps and felt liats at lower price- under t'le present taritr than in 1B7«, before it wont into operation. ii " As Jiu importer, miinnftu'tiuer, generiil merchant, of twenty-five yeaw' experience, extending at present from Cnpe Breton to Uritish Colnmltia, ] can Pftfely say tbat the country as a whole, in its BoliJ material prosperity ami Honnd financial condition, iian ruvor been ((lurins? the period mentioned) as tralj prosperous as at present. 1 believe tliis statement will be confirmed by every leading banker and men hant tlironghoiit tiie Dominion, You are at liberty to use this letter in any way you think best." We have taken the felt hats and woulhsn caj).s, the woollen clothing and the cotton umlerclothi.ig, and, for tho nia.s.s ot' the people, it docs not appear to have cost them a great deal more for these articles — it cost them somewhat less ; but, at any rate, we say they have cost them no more than niider the Tariff of 1878. Let us see what oth(!r articles Iiave bHen affected by the Tariff. We increaseil the duty considerably on wnggons and carriages. I have several statenie^ts, all pretty much in the same direction, but I have one in particular in which is given the prices of waggons and carriages. Waggons which sold in 1871 for $04 sold in 1878 for $02, and in 1881 for $G0. Carriages wnich sold in 1871 fur $1 10 cash gold in 1878 for .f 105 cash, and in 1881 for il?lOO cash. A carriage that sold in 1871 for $120 sold in 1878 for 1 100, and in 1881 loi $100. A covered buggy, first class (riving description of ii), which sold in 1871 for .5170 sold in 1878 for $IG0, and sold in 188! for^l.X); so that tlie increase of duty on carriages has not had the effect of increasing the price to tiie purchaS(U'. Ploughs are selling at IT) per cent, less than in 1878. All agricultural implements ure selling from h to liO per cent, less than they were sold in 1878. Organs are selling at L") percent less than they were sold for in 1878, and the business has increased neaily fourfold. ISev*i.ig machines are reduced in \)rice f 10 each, and the business has trebled or more. Hoots and shoi}S and leather manufactures, first class 'custom work, have increased in price about 15 per cent., equivalent to the increase of wages of the men em])loyed in that i)articular work ; but factory good.s are sold at from 10 to 25 per ctMit. less than in 1878, although the priw of labour haa increased. Lamp glasses sell at less than in the United States in 1878. In hardware goods there has been an increase in prioe for a portion, but not greater than the increased cost of labour and of raw material, hnt a large portion are sold lower thin in 1878. The best class of furniture is selling at a somewhat higher price than before 45 e — tbat is, the very hont (Ics'ripLioii of furniture— biil tho furniture tlint is us;) I l)y tho ui isses of the, jiooplf?, inanu- faotured at the largo (vitiihliiliin Mits of tho Djuiiniui of C iliada, in sold as low, ami lowiM- ill niost cmsch, th m it wa-i in 187H. The piieo of iron castini^s in 1882 was por cont. liighin- tlian in 1878. In IST'J thw prii!o-J W'tro at tlij losv.Nt, pij; iron l)«in:j ch 'a[) t thin at any piM-iod aind). Th) incroas'.i in thi [)rii;) of iron oi-?ti;i.js is a,b):ii 15 p-tr c^it., or cqnivalont to tho increasu I ostof tho i)i:^ iron ami tho lal)oui-, prinoipilly of thclal>our. Cut nails aro o p >,• ft \n;M\ an inm-iMse in priet;, though we h iv iuereased the duty upon tho.u. lift me say that as fa'- ;u these [)ar- tieuiar inanufacturtis are cinen-ned it dor!;-! nor, apoinir th^'^ the eon- sum.'r has l)een eali^lupju t) p.iy anyhing m )r.i as a I'ule, hub iti HOmjetses less than hefore, an 1 eoust'()uendv th;> Tai'ill, to the masses of the p.iopic;, with n'forenee to these ni innfa'"tures, has ui-t been 0))presivo. An lion, gentlem mi oi)')()sitn, the tncmWer from the(^)un^y of St Jolia's(the late Minister of Customs), tO!)k a (iitlereut view ot this auhj -ct ; his view was en loi-se 1 hy tlur late Fmauee Minister. He evitltu;tly entertained tht; opinion tliat this was a pi'oteotive policy, and that it would incrb-as(? largely the i;onsumplion of home manufactures, at a hi'dier price, and yiel>i less revenue. Tli:it bon. ujentleman stated — ami the late Fiuance .Minister s vid that no answe,;- h i3 have tho !if(l,000,000 in I iu) Treasury, and (!u! lu-oph' iiavo p;ii I ii.) ui'Jiv f..i- th.> sjiooda inauu- l.u'Lun'd uM.h'i' ihc prutt-'t.'U\i' jtulic-y. IMl'UOVKI) CONDITION Ol" Tllr: IWUMKR. Tiii've .ir-,.' a great inauy stat'jniouts ma-lu ahout tlio taxation of tho vvork- iuL'iuaii, and esjjecially upon t\ii't fariui'r. Now, lot us look at that view of the caso for a iiiouKut. Tluac is a good deal of Kyuipathy niauifeBtod for the farmer, f on a fonm-r occa.iiou Diado tlio romark, in answer to some statement make by an lion, gentl-.-man tliat tho farmer way heavily taxed under this Tarilf, that from tlie p culiar position of the farmer i\K- would not in i)ro[>orlion to his means contribute as much as eertain other classes. It w.is al'terward.s state;! that 1 had said they would not j)ay their share or would ii<>L pay enougli into the Treasury. I siniply s^aid that undersons wlio \\vv<; not prodiu^'i's and who couBumed largely of imi)ortjd goods. Now, h;t us i'ov a few moments consider the condition of tiie farmer in tho light of the facts I have just i>re3ented — Mid when I am referring to tlie farmer I desire to include the mechanic and the labourer ; I am loferring to the masses of the peojdo of Canada. Jjct us see now, under the change in the TaritF that has betm in operation since 1870, v/ith the reductions proposed to-day, how the farmer, mechanic and labourei stand. His tea will cont him 5 to G cents a pound less than it did in 187S. 'I he duty is removed olf his coffee. The sugar, considci lug th..t middifniaii and his pi'ohts, is at h'a.st 50 cents per Iniudreu luv/ia- than bt^fore. J lis molasses is 10 })ei' cent, less than be |)ai I in I'^TS. With i'<^forenc(' to ri(;e he will ba able to obtaia it under the new arrangement a little h.-.-is thaii bofori-. Soap has increased about 12-1- per cent, in price; the increase, howv^vcr, is due to the raw material from which it is manufactured, aiid this raw material pays uo duty. With reference to spices, the duty remains unchanged. With reference to woollen goods used by the masses, tliey are as cheap 4r or choa[»yr tliLt'.i ln.'rvoro bi'tbi'c. Cii-iLoiii maJi' liouts and shoes are 15 j)(.'r cent, more, the olIkms k'ss. A,.;ricii!tiiral inijilciueiits ai'i; from 5 to 20 per vvtxt. lerifi th:ia iu 1S7.S. Sewing machiiuis arc $10 Ivan than before. Carriairos less than beforf). ii.imp shades and ghis.swaru arc; less thaa bfjfure ; organs ari; hvss thin bi-foro; inits and bolt.s, which I did not roftsr to previuusly, aro less tlian bt'lore ; furnitun; of common cpialitit'S is as low, if no; h,'s<, than bifon; : nails and spikes less; liorso shoes ii little liiglp'r : stoves and eastings a littU; higher ; liardwaro, taking it all round, a Iltih' liigh;r ; tools and files h'si than in 1878. The reduction in eo.st will avcrag"! from 5 to 10 jier c"ut., as near as can bo gathered; on the articles named. Now, .Sir, that Ij^'ing tlio case, let us consider the position of the fai la-'r (^specially. I (piito admit, if it could bo sliown that this tariif hail no advantage's foi' the farnnn-, tliat it waH o[>j)ressive, that he p;iid more lax.es than foimrrly and received nothing iu return, then he might be induced to a(!iept the invitsxtlou of lion, geutleuien opposite to op[»oso this pjHcy whenever it is put upon ita trial. ]iat the leading articles which ho is consuming are no liigher than b>.'fon', and in miny<,'a!'S they are less. .We will now incpiire what other beneiit he has in addition to the lower prict;s. in my jnd<'ment the farmer is as greatly interested in this TaritFas any othei- class of men in tlie Dom.inion. In the lir.-it jdace he ha.s the home m irket. An lion, member opposite referred to the home market last Session, stating that it was of very littlo importivnce. Visit any section of tJie Dominion you please, put \ourse!f in c-miu'unieation with the farmer, especially in t!ie neighbourhood of tow iis where manufacturing industries have b';en t i^tablisiied ami are ie.creasing, and a.dc them if thoy are deriving no advantage. Why, Sir, \indi:r the operations of this Tarift'the vegetables, the fruit, tlu^ i>oaltry, tli;' lamb and veal and otlier meats, the butter, the cheese, for almost < vi'iything they offer for sale, they obtain higher priees on account of the li mio market than is obtained in localilie-s wdiere they have to sell to tlie middleman and ship to another market. In conversations with the faruior.s, 1 fv)und that in 1878 they frequently came to maikot witli th<'ir fruit and vegetables, would stand there all day, and, not bfung able to get a price which would 48 L t bo Hii object to tliem, woul'l drive liDmo and wait for anothor oppor- tunity, fVor^uiMitly I) -in;^ coinpcUcd to return and tako what was oIli-nMl. " Ilow is it uov\'1 " 1 said. Tlicy lepliod : " TlnMe is no ditHonlty now. Wo Holl tn-orytliinu; wo bi'itii,' iu f n- cash, ami at j:j'iod pri(;es." Whyl Bu'cauHJ business is in an active an I flourishing sti.*;**. M mufae.oiioa have increa.st;d, the nuinbor of the euiphjyc^l has increased, and their wa'»os also ha\'e iuerei>el. 'fli'-y li wo pI^Mity of moii^^y with wliich to buy country produce— I speak i>artieid irly of perishable j».)ods wliicli cannot be sent to a distauf. n uket, S) no 2') J) M) more people are erui- ployed than in 1878 in these in luufactories, an I if tlie.y re|»i-eHont four for each finiily you hive 100,0 )() p-oplo to be fed, the heals of whoso families wtMi' witliont eniplny.nent or wer(( only inrtially employi'd, or not in the country, iu 1878. Wli at the olf-ct of this is to tin farmor cm bs clearly unljrsto)!. Bit it is < li I t!i ; d it, >' on oits is no protuo- tion to the farin>r ; the duty (»n ci)rn i-* verv liU-le lionelit to the fai'iuor. What is the fact? Do tlin' not oi)tain l)etter prices for their e irn than they did before the liity of 7! cents p -r Iwis'td wis iinposed] Tney certainly do. Th^'riMii no (ju'stiou about. I) ) they not obtain a liet- ter price for their I've / I a Imit th it is repfnlated to a very 1ii"ljm!)c- tent by tlie pric*' in (l.-nnmy anil elsevvher(;, tli' markets t) wliitrh it is generally shipped fiouitlu' I)oniinion. i'. it the distillers of Canada now buy their rye fuMO tlu^ f.irmers of < '.iiia la, which th"y use as a substitute for corn. That giv(is an increaseil market, and to a certiiii extent affeets the price. With refertMiee to tjie piicj of oats, we havo evidence beyond controversy, in my jnd;^nieat, tliat it has l)een inci-eased to the consuiner ."? cents [)er bushel. But it is said "the Knr opoan mar- ket regtilates the price here. It does not m itt n* an iota whit you put upon it." Does it not] The leader of the Opp )sitioii said iu Nova Scotia — and I do him the jnslice to say he made the samn statement .a Toronto previous to the West To -onto election — th it the duty oi" r >al increased the piice of coal to the consumer in Oatario. and thattue '!,,oy on breadstnflfs increased the |)rice of breadst 'fls to the consumer in the Maritime Provinces. The 0|)eration of tliis sta-.o of things he said would create a bad feeling between t!ie people of Ontario and the peo- ple of the Maritime Provinces, because the latter had to pay additional for the broad.stufTs of Ontario consumed in the Maritime Provinces, and 40 the furirtcr acUlkiuaul oti the; coal cousimuul by tlu! former. On tlio subject of coal I know thurc li;w been a groat dcil said ; but my iu- quirioK have led me to tlio conclusion that, whilo wo rcciiivc a very con- Miderablo Bum from coal imporU'd from tI»o United Statos and consumi'l in Ontario, ono-lialf of that sum is paid by tlio coal [jroducers in tlie IJnitod States. That is my conviction, and we have evidence (»f it. It is only very recently, in conversation with a gentloman who pur chuKOfl in the UniU'd SUites 2,000 tons of coal f(jr consumptitju in (^'auada, ho said that a [wrtion of tlui coal duty had been paid by the coal produccr.s of the Weatorn States. But, as 1 said on a former occasion, if the peoj)lo of the United States w^re to say to »is to-day, or atiy day, iliat they would go back to the Ilociprocity Troaty of ISol, by wlii'li the natui'al products of tiie two countiio.i would bi* c.Kchunged free, wh would be prepared to agree to that arrangciuont. Biit it would be tlu; .i,'reat.»;st mistake that .iny ( }ovurnui'.'nt could iiiakp at this tim(^, while iu'gr than the i»rl(;e brought for that description of article in the Liverpool market, .'ulliug the ordinary freiglit and \'M I. « K < ,•- ordiiiHiy i'xi)onn<'.s iu conveying it to tho inarkut. What Uftvo the/ boon ublo to uo from the fiict of holding grain ] They hiivo driven tJ»o railroad com[)anies and the shipjwnorH to tho point that, in ordor to enablo thorn to got the price thoy wore asking for it in Cliicago, they have nMluoed th^i fri'ight hy railways, and tho charges of transportutiou and tho freights on Hhipj)ing by which it has b(;en sent forward, and thus made just a fair return considering tho price which wjis paid fur it in Chicago. And what was tho dilforcnco a week ngot 1 will give nil illustration siuiply to hIiow that this Tarill', while it does not, of course, increase tho price of grain 15 cents a bushel, does, as [ estimated last Session, increase the ])rico on an uveraso of 10 cents a barrel on flour •onsumod in the Dominion of Canada ; and, it tho leader of the Opposition was prest^nt, I wouM thank him for tho compliment which ho paid me at one of his meetings when ho undertook to show to the people of the IMaritin^e Provincen that tlu^y paid more for their flour, and, in order to clinch the mattiv- hi quoted my statement in Parliament to prove that tho [uiee was in creased to tho consumer 10 cents a barrel on flour. T(mi (lays ago wheat was sold in the Toronto marWet 3 cents higher per bushtd than it was sold for in the Chic'ugo nin . and it couM not have brought these 3 cents j)er bushel in excess had it not btion for the TaiilF; and 1 will tell you wl)y. Tho cost of transmission of wheat from ('hiea,^o to Liverpool vin Now York was precisely to u cotit what it osts to convey wh(^at (lom Torojito via tho Grand Trunk Kailwav aiid IIim Allui steamers to Liverpool ; therefore, if it (I'pended simply on the ICiigli.s}i marki't, that wheat would have had t' \^o down 3 cents in price p<'i bush'l in order to coni[)eto with tho wheat S'-nt from Chwu'^n, bul il brought 3 cents more, becauae, as we know — after tho harvest is iu, and a lartje portion of it has been shipped to ]']ngland — the nsh'-l foi- tlieir wheat than tliey v.'oul 1 have obtained dl Ijiul our luarkot bcoii opcu anl ex-) >m:.1 to thii •.la'»>('r of l)cli».; hiult^'vi ctitu)n with tho pro.luoo of our owu uc;ricultuilsts ; Tho retnrnfl on tho Tabic of tho IFoiiso ^liow th;it in tho yt'iuH INTO h^O and 188081 thoro woro 10,000,000 bushels moro of ('ainulian i^ruin fonsnmed in Canada than was tho caso durint; tlio two years previous. Wo had, therefor*', a nuirkot for (he products of Canada to tho it.xtont of h,000,000 bubhols of f^rain per anuutn which wo did not W'foro j)0«8»'w«, and it is thus wo derive the btjuolit. Our oxj)orts of the pro- duct*! of Canada liave boon somewhat inoreaaod, and a home market for 5,000,000 moro bushels of grain has been provided fur our farmers, wh" liuve obtained Vietter prices than they would havo received had their market been open to free competition with the farmers of the Western States ; and in this manner the Taritf has conferred a decided benefit ujwn our agriculturists. I havo tlio evidence hero wliicli will show the exact ox tent of the reduction in imports of breadstufTs, In 1877 we consumed in Canada 5,210,890 moro hushels of United States wheat than wo did in 1881, and in 187S we cotisumed 2,101,867 bushels more than wo did in 1881. In 1877 we consumed .^99,737 more bushels of American oats than we did in tho veai- 1881; and in 1878 wo consumed 1,090, ITjO more bushels <^'f United States oats than we did in the year 1881; showing that in 1881 wo had u homo market for 7,302,000 bushels moro of home grown grain than the aveargo for tho years 1877 and 1878. That is sutTicient, i think, to establish jjrctty clearly that the home marke^ for the farmers i>f Canada, with an increased price, in certain seasons ^.ves them what they would not possess if that home market was open for the Americans to send in their produce free, as they have done down to 1878 or 187''. Conflidering the fact that tho farmer, as well as the labourer, tho artisan and tho masses of the people, pays no more for the goods ho consumes than ho did in 1878 ; considering that he has the homo m vrket free from competition to a very great extent for such products as I }:avc named, as well as vegetables, fruit and other articles that may be con- sidered perishable, and securing higher prices than ho did before, I thuik it will be difficult to convince him that under the present policy he is ;)L' not benolited, niul to iiuluoj liiiu luuler iiiiy cli'cum.stiuice.s to oi-posi^ tk policy that lias so increased the value of his produce. Canada's credit in England. ITaving dealt with Ihcso points, I desire to deal with another objection, and that is that the ill feeling that would bo created in England from the adoption of tin's policy would eflect our cre^'it there. I answered that last Session, and in this way : that in 1378 the securities of New iSouth Wales, which wero the highest Colonial securities in the English market, sold fi*om 4 to 5 jicr cent, above Canadian ; that, while Canadian, 4 per cent, securities had increased from about 89 or 90 to 104, the other Colonial securities had not increased in like [lorportion ; that then Canailian securities wei-e I per cent, above those of New South Wales, and, thei'cfore, their increased value was not solely attributable to the abundance of money and the lower rate of interest. I am in ft position to state to-day tliat our securities are 2 per cent, above those of New South Wales, showiu;^ an increase ovc i last year, and standing as they stood then at the vovy top of eveiy '-olonial security that is offered in the Engli.'sh niaikct, and next to Consols. In this connexion I may remind hon. members tliat T laid on the Table of the ITou.se a few days ago the particulars of an arrangement made with our ageni,.-^ for the transaction of our business for ten years. Messrs. Uiwitig, Cil'yn, ?.[ills a; Co. have acted as the agents of Canada for many years, and down to 1873 and 1871 the arrangements made bv old Canada and tl;e Provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick wev(>, (Iiat they wc'i-<> to receive 1 p'r cfut. for the negotiation of loans, 1 jur cent, on their redemption, and 1 per cent, for tlio payment of inti ix'st on the cou[»ons. Since then an arrangement was made by which the percentage on the coni»ons was reduced to one-half })er cent, on bonds issued after 1873. Tt was in contemplation when our High Ci>nimis&ioner was appointed to London to make arrangements by Avhioh tliat agency .should becouie a linancial aginicy as well, and I stated to the hon. member for Centre Huron (Sir Ilichard J. Cartwright), who put some (questions to me last Session and tlie Session before, that this matter was delayed owing to a ditliculty that h;id aiisen with the agents, as they claimed that, out- standing bonds having been issued paya1)le at the olliee of I\Ios.vik. Glyn. Mills it. I'a'ing. th<'y !:ad the n'ght, as long as they wep' in a i3 a position to do so, to iccL-em I hem uiul ia;,ive the connuissiou. JIow- '-■vcr, it was likely to lend to a controversy which neither party desired lo bring abont, and the vosult \vius llml a proposition was made to Sir Alexander Calb by onr agents (hat iov the I'liture, commencing,' on tlie 1st of January last -and tluit jiro^iosal was accepted— the c. We have arru.-ed in this contract tiiat instead of their reeeiving 1 per cent, on tli'.- re- dem])tion of th!\so .securities, tliev Inu'c agreed to exelianr'-e i per cent., or pos.sibly securities bearing a lower rate of interr.s^, with the liolders of the 5 ])or cent, securities wlio may desir,3 to ,1) so, that is, redeem them by an issue of new delx-ntur.'S f)r ! per e»'n' , which, if we paid 1 jier cent, for (lie redemption, and even -\ jier cent, for the negotiation of the mnv loan, would naw. 1 jjer cent, on .^35, 000,000, making a saving of §350,000 on that transaetion. Now, Sir, I think 1 have pretty thoroughly answere.l the objections made in 1S78 to this policy, and answered them by facts gathered from tlfe Tuidic Accounts, ficts gathered from tlie trade r(^tui'ns, facts gather(Ml, as I accept them, from reliable men, but of course subject to collection, and if they nie not .correct we wish to have thtin <-orrected. We want to have the facts with referevv^o to this matter, and thtni W(^ shiill know pr( ciscly \s here we stand ; lait we pr 'sout thetn heic believing tlu-m to be coriect, and conseipiently [>ro\ ing that our case is strong, a»id that the tViirs enter ■ tained by hen. gentlemen opposite weie groundless. OI'KltATIO.NS OF TKK TARIFF. Let us look again for a few moments before I close at the operations of this Tariif. How has it alTi'eted the different interests of tliis country ? Take, for uistance, the owners of bank stocks ; it h; s not injured them. The stock owned in Ontaiio and (Quebec to-day at the y are selling goods for less than they did before, business has laigely increased. They arc working full time, niakingprompt sales, and their increased {a-oductiens at even a lower price have given them better profits than Itefore. J lave the n^.en employcid by (lie 51 raaiiufaotureis suffcieJ ? They Irivo not, bectuiso we find that in the cases where they have not had an increixso of wages they have had con- stant employment instead of shoit time as before. In many cases they havd not only constant employment but they work overtime, and their position is hotter than it was before. How is it with the labourer to-day ? He has plenty of employment In every part of the Dominion. An hon. MEMBER.— Xo ; no. Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— Plenty of employment. 1 say that, and I am surprised that any hon. gentlem ould sny •' no." An hon. MEMBER.— No. Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— No ] Well, Sir, his i)osition h inliuitcly improveJ, at all events, as compared with what it was before the adoption of the present Tarilf. We do not now find the Govern- ment compelled to ask Parliament to authorize the construction of Public Woiks in order to give woik to unemployed men. How is it, Sir, with reference to the merchant ? Tiio wholesale merchant tells u^^ that his bu.siness has been doubled last year compared with that of 1879, and 50 per cent, larger than that of 1880 ; that he has had prom[»t payments, that tlere have been fewer bankruptcies, fewer losses, than he has known before. How is it. Sir, with th^^ shipowner ? The .shipowners are at this moment probably feeling less the changes that have taken place in the industries and general interests of the country than any other people. There are circumstances efTecting the shij 'ng interests of Canada that can not well be reached by legislation. One • the fact that the iron ships of the old world are rapidly taking the ])laces of the wooden ves.sels of the new, built by our own shipbuilders. We give a drawback that is more than sufficient to make up for tlje additional duty inipo.sed on the materialsused in the construction of ships, and I give as an evidence of this fact that but one builder out of tho eighteen or twenty who sent in their claims for drawbacks a.sked moro than the 75 cents allowed. The drawback gives the builder more thavi he pays in additional days. Mr. KTLLAM. — But the Govornnieiittixed an mltitiary drav;b.\ek. Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— Of course we did. 5j Mr. KILLA.M. — If the iimouut was arbilnii-ily iixeJ, wluif was tlie uso of any man asking more ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY.— 1 luu .speaking of the tti)[)lIcations made before the adoption of the specific rate — applications that were made to the Minister of Customs when it was announced to the shipowners tliat the extra duties they paid upon materials entering into the construction of ships would bo returned to them. But one of them made a claim above the 75 cents per ton subseciuontly fixed upon, and many of them claimed not more than half that sum. And, Sir, w»? now come forward with a new proposition for bounties on a certain class of vessels the construction of which will give employment to our jieople in building suitable vessels for the fishermen. We are doing ev<;ry- thiug wo can do to protect that interest, though I admit it is not possible to grant the same aid as to some other industries. How is it with the lumber interest] It is said the Government have done nothing for that. To a certain extent I admit it. Wo may have increased the cost of oats, and of blankets if the lumberman buys those shoddy articles upon which a duty of 45 per cent, is paid. If wo except these two articles, it will be difficult for the lumberman to show that he pays any increased taxation that does not go into the Treasury as his share of tho $2,500,000 necessary to make up deficits of past years. It would I admit be difficult for us to show any great direct benefit given to thorn, but I throw out this idea : It is now w(?ll imderatood that after three years' operation of this Tarilf houses that wero unoccupied before have no longer '-'to lot" on them; that theix> is an increased demand in all parts of the Dominion for lural)er for homo consumption, as compared with 1878, for new buildings, and every thousand or million feet sold for use in our home markets decreases by just so much the amount that would otherwise be exported, and it is well known by those who live in the Maritime rrovinccs how raucli the prices in American and English markets dei)end upon tho stock ?•; ])laced upon those markets. The lumber wo manufactured in 1878 and could not consume here, was thrown in addition to the ordinary ship monta upon the English and American markets, reducing its value there. Providing an increased demand at homo is the measure of relief aflfordod to the lumber trade. How is it with the mining industry ? b(j Jliis iLert; hvvn iioLliiiig duiio fur tliat .' lias iiotliing Ijooii tlouc for tli« ooal indiisUy Ly iucrcubing its output 400,000 ^tons last year ? and it would liave increased atill more but for tlie accident at the Albion mine. There are two smelting furnaces -where there was one before, and there is a j)ropcsition now, and capital paid in, for smelting works in Montreal. There are before the Covcrnment now pro})Ositions that may reault in the establislnnent of other iron industries ; but, take the facts as they are, they sliow that the policy is doing something for this industry. I have already ex[ilaincd the ellect of tlie TariU'upon the farming interest ; I have shown that the farmer has a homo market and higher ) ►rices owiiig to American produce being lai-gcly shut out, while the articles he consumes arc not higher than they were bt-fore. Look at the railway interest. It was tliought the operation of the Tarilf would tend ki diminish the amount of their tralUc. If we could make a careful account of the manufactured goods cariied over the ;i'ailways, we would Und the revenue from these sources has largely increased. Comparing wlr.it they carried from the seaports in 1S77-7S and wliat they carry from the seaports to-day, and add the manufactures from the various factories that ai'o sending their products all over the Dominion, it will be found that the railway projn-ietors have a large interest in tliis new policy. Every interest in the country has been, m my judgment, largely and materially benelitod. This policy, sup[)lemented with om- legislation securing the r.ipid construction of the Canadian Paciii*- ilailway, have coml)ined to jilnce us in the enviable position we now occu}>y — the best ]>o5;ition of any })cople on the face of the earth. Let us look at it for a moment. Here we are, with large expenditures ajiead, it is tru*^, but with a rich, fertile and widely extended domain whicli will pay off largely the indebtedness that will be incurred in its develo]>ment ; nay, more, the portion of it which w.as required for the maintenance of our police and Indians^ and for the preservation of pcaco in that country, will all be reimbursed out of the proceeds of these lands, and if it were not for the consideration — a high consideration I admit; a consideration that cannot be overlooked by this Parliament without injury to the country— that it is desirable to give to the people of th« old world, and the inhabitants of our own Dominion, free homes in that great North-West we could rcidize in a few years, if they were put up 5t ab public auction, tlio money that would pay back not only the rxpendituro up to the presont time, but down to the completion of tlio ra ilway. B)it it will come in the future ; our public debt will be decreaHod, our annual interest will bo reduced, and we shall occupy the proud position of being able to otTer to the industrious and honost men who cannot lind work in the old world a homo here, with free lands, a country girdled with railways, and a canal system the beat in tiie world ; with institutions that will protect thoir lives, their properties and their rights, and that will afford a refuge for the oppressed nufu, if there bo any such in any part of the old worhl. We will open our arms to them all, and bid them welconu;, and make the Dominion of Canada, as I said in my closing remarks in a former speech, what Providence has designed it, to be — one of the greatest and richest countries in the world, one we may be proud to belong to, especially by every man who has advocated and supported the |:)olicy that has in three years raised us to our present enviable ]H)sition, a policy that will nut be repealed, a policy that will bo sustained either by genilenieu op[»osite or by those on this side, for the will of the people will demand its permanency. Under these circumstance w(^ feel a pride and a satisfaction in meeting Parliament and pref>enting our case, and v/e ai'e prepared to vindicate our position heri^ and elsewhere, and wo know that at the close^of this Sesnion, when the arguments on botli sid(\s have been heard, and we have met our o[)j[)oneuts face to face, as we are now stronger in the country than we were in 1878, v.e will be still stronger jit the close of the Session than, wo are now, and tliat when the time comes to ask the peoi)le for the endorsation of oui- poli(.-y tlwy will sustain us and send us buck lien; to perfect aiv! continno th'> ]>nli,'y we kave inatigurated.