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I Commentaires supplftmentaires: Wrinkled pages may film slightly out of focus. this inm is filmed at thi reduction ratio checked below/ C4 document est film* au ta^x de rMuction indiqui ci-dessous. ^MW" ^njT Twr ^x a 26X 30X 12X 16X 7 20X 2m 2SX 32X V y Tht oopv fumed her* hM bMn rapVoduocd th«nkt to the o«mmMlty of ; - Motropol I tan Toronto Roforenco Llbfory Bo I (V in Room iVio InMQOo oppoaring horp aro tho boat quality poailblo oonoMaring tho eondltion and lagiblNty Of tha orifllnal oopy and in kaapAnp with tha fllimlnfl Qontraot apacifioationi. Original oopiaa In printad papar oovara ara fiimad baginntoig with tha front eovar and anding on tho laat pagf with a printad or liluatratad Impraa* alon, or tho book o'oyar'whan approprlata. 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Lee diegrammae auhrenta - Hluatrent to mAtnodo. . «^ 2 • 6 I Mtatooott tmoumak tmr chart (ANSI and ISO TEST CHAIV No. 3) 1.1 1m |2j2 1 11.8 1.25 iu mils 1.6 /IPPLIED If^MGE Jnc 1SS3 to* MoNi SIrMt RochMtv. Nm York U608 USA (716) 482 T (UOO - PhOM (71«) 388 - 9989 - Fox ■***■¥'* 7^ # .■?*<- i . !A ^.- ■t-. ■'■;■■■■' V ' ■,..'■■ ■' ■ * ■ ■ ■ . " ■ . - •■ • ■'?V~ ORAL DEBATE WN TUB IKKTHINM Of »V UNIVERSAL SALVATIO: AND ENDLESS PlIMISIIMENT, ■;■ I . UELD IN CHESTNUT GROVE. TOWNSHIP OF PELIIAM, C. W, ^» ON Jl'NE iTii *jt» Stii. 1869, BETWEEN REV. G. P. HARRIS, METHODIST, AMD REV. J.. R. LAVELL, UNIVERSALIST. REPORTED IN PflONKTIC SHORT-HAMO BY G, i\ UUE. TORONTO; PRINTED AT THE OFFICE OF THE NORTH AMERICAN, 2, ELGIN Bl'ILDIN(JS, VONOB RTHEKT, 1853. \-v- ■^ft^^tek'i^^t' N , INTRODUCTION. .-■■'■'v .»■• Thi Debote, wWcIi It ii the object of the following page, lo Uy before the public, came off on the 7th and 8th of June, in Chestnut Grove, FonthilJ, Pelham, C.W. The weather on both day, was verj favourable; and the interest taken in the important subject for discussion, was indicated by the fact, that upwards of fifteen 4mndred people from the surrounding country assembled in the finely-shaded, romanUc spot, which had been chosejiior the occasion, and had been' temporarily seated for thUlrc-imraodation. The disputants were the Rev. J. R. Lavell, Mor of the Univcrsalist Church, Font- hill, and the Rev. G. P. Harris, Episcopal Methodist Church, and at present on the Barton Circuit. The questions for 'discussion were,-for the first day. Do the Scriptures tench tJie doctrine of the final holiness (tnd happiness of all mankimU-^Mr. Lavcll the affirmative, Mr. Harris the negative; for the second day, 2>, the Scriptures teaJi. tfie d&clrine of endless misery for any part of the human family ?-Mt. mnin t\ui affirmative, Mr. Lavell the negative. The speakers occupied a rustic platform, elevated about six feet from the sward, and each was furnished with a table and writing materials. The Moderators satin the centre, in front of the platform. In the preliminary arrangements it was agreed, that the time for each speaker should be limited to fifteen minutes: that the debate should commence each morning at eight o'clock, and ^ continue till six o'clock, p.m., with a short interval in the middle of the day for refreshment. The linitation in regard to time wa« aarri ed out to th e l e tter, s o that fr equently d ur ing the two Hays* "6 \.;l diMUMton ttiA render will find (hit (he apeiker ttoi^ Uiort in ttM ■liilit of some propo»ition without being ■lloweil time to carrj out hi* ■rguiitenta to their Icgitinmtu ttxtcnt. This ttbru|itni'M of tcrinination might havt' been obviated, ha^ each speaker been allowt^d half an hour at a time, — but a» (he agreement had been ma*le it was deemed adviiiabic to act up to if. About nine o^clock on tl>« morning of the 7th the arrangemmti were completed, th« disputonta hivt^ chos4rn for their respcctivo Moderators, John H. lieralon, Vm\., and (ieorge IknneH, Kw|., and these again clioosing LeWiil WiNon, Kiq., aa their Umpire. Tho discussion was conducted in a calm, temperate manner, and was listened to throughout with the greatest attention and the deepest interest. No decision was asVed of the audience aa to which position had been most eflectivvly sujj^Wcd ; and witen the debate was concluded they left for their respective homes, seemingly satisfied that their time had not been mis-spent. G.P.U. I- V ft)ior( in tti« earrjr out lii* r termination w«!(J half an was (Jffmcd »rning of the ivfl^ln clioMrn and (leorge on, Kw)>, M 1, temperate est attention ! audience m ind wla>n the St, Meihingljr . r. u. DEBATE. Mr. LavCll said,— v Mows. Modoratnr*, and Christian Fri.m.ls,-W.. havo nsMomMcl hnrotliM niornins to diwus, iho jno.it important .,u.Mion that can oinimlh.. attention of tho hnntnn thind^a qufMi.m whi.hmvolvM .^ uftimnto doitiny of millions of lu,i«^^, f.„wed in th« ima^M- of tJod. The question for ,» and happiness of. nil , nan, Mndf I anirm that tln.y do. My oj,,,ono„t .U-nios thi.V opinwn. In tnkn.R tho alli.mntivc of this ciuoslio.r, I ontor np,n tho work witll groat satisfaction ami pleanuro. I staml hero a, |h« n.lvocat,., a.nl Uu. only ndyorntn in tho wcwtorn part of Canada, of this priorions, his son c-hoeringr truth. I Mand horo with proat ron(id..nco that I shall sncceod in proving it to tho sathfae-tion of rvory unprejudiced min.l present. Mcissrs. M„.|„rators, F stnn.l horo to deemvo no man. No t f„r if tho SetiptiiroH .|o not teach this .rrrnt and glorious truth, that all-mankind shall ultimately nnifo in triumphs of fra.so and Klory to (^KUnd the Saviour, I will immediately nl.an.lon jt; but If they d„ teach this soul-eheerina .joctrine, then all .honW, know It, that they may lay hold of tho sure and .steadfast h,.- '•ot before them m the Cosik,I, and rejoice in tho fulr.e.s of its hlli.,«,. that I btvj, the des.rcs and prayers of all poodNhearts.-thut I have the desire and prayer of my opponent,-ihnt. ! may M.ccee.f in mv undettakins, none will deny. For I s formed in his own imajfe, there in immortal and kni,i.ks8 a.^ony JO blaspheme the name of their Father, which is Love, to all elerliity. ' My hrst argument is based upon the desire of God. God dksirfs mjinal hohnesB amf kappinet$ of alt mankind. This my opponent :k% lPa§ ^ •r^-SrrarK' '%■■: il (I . '. -■ ■- e .-^,:, ■.:,,■■■ /■,..... vrjil ri6t deny, as he granted it in a rormer discussion. No Methodist ^ will do this,^ for every attribute of God proves such a desire. A holy God, a merciful being, can have no other desire. God is the Father of all. Can a perfect father bavti any other desire than that creatures formutl in his own image shall become holy and happy 7 «God is Hove," 1st John, iv., 8. Here the Apostle. John gives us a full (le.4criptioa of^, Plis holy nature^ Wo do not read in the Scriptures that God is Justice ; but we ri)ad that he is pure, unadulterated Love. If, then, God changeji. not— for he is without " vaiiablenees or shadow of turning,"— can a being, wHuse nanie, whose nature is Love, cherish any other desire tliari thut the whole world whom he loves.will become lioly and happy ? My argument is, that tlte desire of God will be satisfied, and that this ' linonstrous doctrine of endle&s suflering is without foundation. I maintain that this desire will he saXiH&ed, without- the poi'sibility of failure Who will stand up in tne presence of God, who is Infinite in Power, and say that God will have aii vnnatiajicddeaire lo all eternity? Unsatisfied desire is a' source of misery and wretchedness; an^ he who maintains that the desiro'oi God will remain unsatisfied, ' takes the^rouud that the Lord will be unhappy. As God desires the happiness of all. his creatures, he has provided means to accomplish that desire ; ai^d to deny this would be to deny the Scriptures. In the Scriptures we read, " He is of one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul Jesircth, even that he doetji" Job xxiji., 13. It is admitted that God desires the final happiness of all men, and the £iblu plainly asserts. What his soul desireth tlutt he doeth. This plain affirmative text it is not itr the power of any man to over- throw. I have now presented you with my first argumant.. I deem it proper, to do this in the first place, and then make some rernarks that 1 intended afterwards, in relation to the origin of this debate. You . will {fll bear in miAd that I am the challenged party ; ray opponent is the challenger. While delivering a discourse in the Bajnist Church at Fonthill some lew Sabbaths ago, ray opponent. rose alter he had Concluded his discourse on the subject of Baptism. He invited my attention, and challenged me to a public debate in this Township, ' at such time as we might decide upon. I accepted the challenge. I eouUrnot do otherwise. For as I am the only Universafist Minister in the Westerii part of Canada West, I felj bound^ under these circum- '-', stances, to accept the challenge, and to defend the glorious doctrine of a AVorld's Salvation, and to oppose the monstrous idea that God will consign to ENDLESS sufFERiNu in eternity some of the creatures he has made in his ov|n image. I could not have been induced, however, to accept it, unless we obtained a Reporter to give a • faithful account of the discussion ; for in the several discussions which I have had with .Ministers both of ttie Methodist denomination a^gd of . other deuominatipus; invariably have aympthisere with my ', :,^:- '%■■: No Methodist Bsire. A holy is the Father that creatures 'God is Hove,'* deAcriptioa of^, lod is Justice ; , God changeji. iiing,"— can a y other desire ly and happy ? , and that this oundation. I fos^hility of .'ho is Infinite I desireio all ivietuhedneas ; in unsatisfied, lod desires the to accomplish tares. In the in turn him ? A'xiii., 13. It men, and the doelh. This man to over- nt.. I deem it some rennarks debate. You ly opponent is a^itist Church after he had e invited my lis Township, challenge. I St Minister in lliese circum- '-', )us doctnne of that God will the creatures teen induced, ier to give a il dks^ussions denomination itrs with my '-. : opponentt circulaled faltehoods. (Hear, hear.) I aawrl, they huva oirculated falsehoods, which can be easily proved, in relation to such debates; so that I am glall we have succeeded in obtaining theservicesof one who will give the discussion to the public a* you yourselves hear it this, day. I would also state, that owing to "the manner in which: my opponent acted in a former debate,— the unchris- tian manner, as I conceived,— I had aiiothor incentive to obtain a Reporter to liote down this discusfipn, for I thought it would be tne means of causing him to bridle l^fchgue, and treat his opponent in a Christian manner. But if he wilTnot, then it will be down in black and white, for the public to see the influence and tendency of the monstrous idea, that God, vvhom we ar^ bound to imitate in all things, designs the endlesa misery 0/ creatures be has formed in his owu image.' MoDEHAT<«—The time is u^^ - Mr. Harris said : — ' Moderators and Friends,— It may be as » ell that I should begirt at the beginning, and notice first the circumistauces cotujecied with the ' challeuge given in the Baptist Meeting House. On my arrival in this place to preach a sermon on Christian Baptism, I was informed by - a number of my friends that after the discussion which took place between Mr. LavelJ and myself, he had told the folks that " he had shut -me up," and that I could not prove the propositions that I undertook. This being the case, and Mr. Lavell being in the congregation I said^ I have some remarks to' make. I am happy to see my friend Mr. Lavell present, as I understand by many in this place that he has told the people ftere that he "shut me up," at our last discussion. I wish to give the gentleman the privilege of doing so down here, and to give liis iriends an oj[>portunity to see how well he can do it. These were the remarks as near as I can possibly remember. I chaUeh"ed the gentleman for five days' discussion ; but one of the propositions r was going to have brought forward— will be unnecessary now— that is. The existence of a personal devil, for he has already said that God will not send his creatures to be the companions of devils in an endless hell ; so that part is, settled. He accepted of my challenge- before the congregation. But when we met he absolutely refused t, "andthnthe ids." Hesayi ad circulated a i all due defer- ug; but that a i at the del I direct him to H. much credit 3 sucli a report. I have found things unqual if ily prove. My but I chose to e existence of a -tlevils on two ved God wou(d , 1 eternity in an, !mi-omnipotent true. I do not that thfi Bible called Satan; I the subject I id so delightful, le? Butifw© 3 denomination I the other self- u ship, loaded y will go to the jpt the Gospel vaythe Evan- III sending the home ainohg$t lem as often as . ' f to all pkoj^e ,' he true Gospel 1 not send his in it presently;, er will grapple 1. My proposi- " what his soul t point. He has ! not embraced in. my position. And then about the Goodness of GotCthough thU y'as not my position-he says, does the Gooilness of {;o«| make meq righteous now ?doea it make men perfectly good now? Nod Hdn.it : but IS that a reason that He never will. ' My friend has more to ilo than make bare assertions. God is unchangeable, he says, and all meij are not holy and jiappy nOw; therefore, they never will be. And has It come to this? God is unchangeable, aiid all men are not holy and happy now; therefore, they never will bo. To sustain himself, and o^voidthe conclusion of my position, it is just saying in plain English that God's desires are not always accomplished. He has etate.l that God desires all men to be holy and happy now ; but they do not become so; Tiierefore, they will never be hQ\y and happy, not- withstandrng God desires it. I maintah. that ttvis position is not sound. It overlooks the fact, that God was pleased to create man subject to vanity, not willingjy, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same tn fiope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage 0/ corruption intolhe glorious liberty of the children o/Uod, Horn, vui,, 20, 21. My opponent overlooks the fact that man is created a progressive being, and capable of progress. It is groat folly to insist that God s desires are fmstrated because man at the eommenc.,i»eul of hia progress is not at the same point, at which he will be at the oonclusion: It MTOuld be just as consistent to say that God's desire is not accom. phshed because the little child is not as fully developed a* the man/ar .because a s.mple twig does not produce fryU as the mature tree. But the fact IS the.argument is very strong and conclusive, aiul thb gentle- man may make the most of it. It is so strong and conclusive that he makes a most desperate attempt to throw doubt upon the declaration of Job^which I have quoted. For the Scriptures expiessly declare, Job xxiii., 13, « He is of one mind, and who can turn him ? and what his '^de^ireth, even that he doeth." My opponent mu,t either admit that Gotl does what "he desires, or deny his Bible. God desires all men to be saved, and he does what he desires; hence he will in his own ' goodtmcB^xve all men. Instead, however, of my opponent yieldin.. the debate, he is laboring very hard to impress it upon the minds of the audience that the Scriptures utter a falsehood when they declare that God doeth what he desiretb. , But J leave this' point, althop.^h he insists either that God cannot or will not do what li^ desires, he iL admitted that God desires the; final salvation of aU, and the Bible declares that he can arid will save them. My opponent stated th«t I said God ' yuld be^unhappy through all eternity. I said no such thing. I said if-Ggd had an unsatisfied desire through all eternity, he certainly would •be unhappy, tor an unsatisfied desire is the most prolific source of unhapp.ness. He says also that my Goir is miserable. Is the man crazitto talk such nonsense affthis ? Or is ray opponent In earnest ? My God is no t unhappy. But I do maintain that the God he worships, ttkt r" :i.v I h ift'- will send some of the nobleiit of hia cteation to roll in endless and immort)«l agony will be unhappy through all eternity, inasmuch as he has desired the ullrmate holineM and happiness of ajl men, and yet that his desite will be loft unaatisfied. ,.'"- _ Mr. Ha*18.— My opponent stated that I >d not touched the xxiii chapter of Job. It was not because I was unwilling to do so ;'but because I had not time to come lo it. The words are, Ho is of one mind and whatsoever he deirireth that he doeth. II he does aM he de- sires, the Bible says in the second Psalm, I have set my King upon my holy hill of Zion, Iwill declare the decree. The Lord hath said unto me,ThoUrtrtmySon; this dayhave I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give ihee the heathen fit thine inheritance, and Ihq uttermost part of the earth /or % possession. Thou shalt break them With a roilof iron ; thou shalt dash them in pieceslike a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, ye Kings ; be inairuoted. ye Judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he De angry, arid ye perish /row /Ae way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." This is the testimony of Scripture as to what God will do. The remarks I made upon the desire 6f God were these ; I said that God certainly desires the happiness of man now as much as he would do at any future period, from the fact that my opponent stated that (God was unchangeable. If God is unchangeable and desires the happiness of men now, and they are not happy, I ask my opponent to bring forward Bome evidence that God will ultimately make men holy and happy without any change in the Divine Being. If he could prove that the Divine Being would change, there would be some hope; but from the fact that God says himself— I am the Lord I change not— those -individuals that are unhappy now cannot be Tfiade happy unless a change takes place in the individuals themselves. God is the same, and he is saying, Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him turn unto the Lord for4ie will have mercy upon him, and to our God for he will abundantly pardon. My opponent said he went to the heathen Methodists. As a Methodist, certdinly I feel thankful that I have got so far off from the system of ray friend as to be associated with the heathen. Better be a heathen in this respect than a Bible-reader and deny the holy revelation. My opponent sajs God is satisfied,— of course God must be satisfied, and whatsoever his soul tiesireth that he dOeth. Then is God satisfied at present with the position of our world? Is God satisfied with the. position of every man? What siiith the scripture. Unto the Angel of the Church of the Liodiceans write :— These things saith the Amen, the faithful an4^ue Witness, the beginning of the creation of God ; I kn^w thy*work8, that thott art neither cold nor hot ; I would thou wert • in end loss and lasmuch as he men, and yet It touched the g to do 80 ;',but , IIu is of one does a)i he de- King upon my hath said unto Ask of me, nnce, and Ihc) alt break them potter's vessel. > Judges of the mbling. Kiss my, when his put their trust J will do. The said that God he would do at i that God was B happiness of i bring forward ►ly and happy prove that the ope; but from ige not^those appy unless a the same, and righteous man ire mercy upon opponent said ertiinly I feel friend as to be 8 respect than nent saj's God oever his soul sent with the ition of every f the Church I Amen, thie jn of God ; I )uld thou wert .\- la _coW or hot. So then, becaus^thou .rt lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of iny moulh-ttov. 3 oh. M, 15 I6 y He J»ould spue them out like waier-likedilch water, God represeuis the Laodioean church asunfit to bo tasted, Wow d.d God desire .h«.n to be Uill«ro„fru,„ what they were ? It ho, ,hey were not as God w.,uld have then,, f God d.d not dus.re Ihem to be bettor, if Iho apostle n.i.rcpresonft InVT 1 ^" fT '" ''""''^'- ^"' 'f *'^"y wereneithercold nor hot and if God desired them to be difforeiit from what they were, then they were not in a position to satisfy the desire of ( Jod. There i. no way .ff framing an argument to gel out of this solemn fact. My opponent wenron t0 say that we loaded a shi^, part with powd.r aL cun.ions, and the., seat m.ss,a.iaries on board k her to go to the heaUien, and i the heathen would Uiot receive the gospel, we gave them cuuuon ball.. Has he ..amod one single instance where this occurred-uot one We go onward in obedieiice^to the commaud. Go ye forth and preach the ^»pe. Go, says (he Saviour, and preach peace to them that are far off, and glad tid.ng, of great joy to all people. And I say, ye.s, in .l.e jwme of heaven go. It opens the door of salvation to the family of man ; ,t offers them life and salvation, and It provides for all. who will comply with Its requiren,ent8,eternalfelicitya..da home in glory. Itis glad tidings of great joy. My opponent then went o„ tp speak fromthe passage, Romans viii.,21-.23,'*Bec^uselhecreaturei.seL8osh.ll b! Sr^r ?' P "'""':' -rruptio^, i„,o the glorious-liberty of the childien of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in^pam together until now : And not only M«y, tut ourseW a^«, wluch have the first fruits of the spirit ; even we oSrselveJ^ creatt^ Palfl""''" Were spoken of the Jews, they were the creation. Paul says, even we eurselves. This was the creation groamng until now. They waited for the redemption of the body. Bn .the creotjKewrasmU subject to vanity, and wo. in the bondage " -tbOondage of th,« corrnplion, into the glorious liberty of the ckildren of God. Jews as well as Gentiles were to be made happy and to rejoice. My^ opponent talked of a devil ,A^th two legs, however, as we iave nothing to do to-day^^ith tfie existence of thed^vil,— ! ■ aJUrV^^r^"" interrupted the speaker, and stated m as the quesuonfor the day was, l>o the Scriptures teach the /f„a/ Ao/,„m and kap^russ Mailmen, it was the duty of the chairml toseeTha ^JDTa ''""P^ "^^'>y»« tte point as possible, and he trusted ^v^ddosc^and would notagaia wander sofar^^ «he subject _ m. Harris ie8umed,-The gr^t truth revealed in the Bible is that "Pon whic h we are to depend, aa th e lig ht t ha t s hiaes in a dark "^i '*- ■-w_ i -■ ■■.■14 ;■■:.■ place, with regard to m«n»« eternal deitiny. The Seriplureii of Divirte Truth have b -en given ua as the man of our oounsel, and we are told that we do well to take hoed to these truths, until the day dawn and the day «tar arine in our hearts. Wo havo spoken of the desire of God. We iittvo proved that God drd desire that the Laodicean Church should be in a ditforont position from what it was, and would now refer you to the circumstance of the Saviour when he looked down upon Jerusalem. His words Were, 01 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, ann as a hen doth lot. And in the »t ye may have r coming to the a license tosay at interruption 5 order. I really selves like meri dl men ; but he ess, but he also ivod, and come Tim. i.4. He gainst him. if I have noted It he did not at. d not time to do in the name uf^ I as God desires soever higsoul this desire will isumed ? The as picked up a ing dust in the n this position, B.flnal holiriess it God desireth I retorts, with desires are npt- t God's desires ' liver^e. Very [ hat the desires 1 old argument, [^ ; inasmuch as lerful logic to nperfect man ; but no. for a perfect M How do., my opponent know ,R., G„l d.».res the perlect happiness of .11 n.er, now ? I deny this poMlion. Co.! mjjle man subject to vanity. He is a progressive being • and to srguo tha, because the child is not a full-grown man in infan^y^ there- fore God's desire, are defeated, i, not what I would .x,H.ct.r t.u.t weshall have«)melhing better than thi, before tho day dose,. He.«v. men cannot be happy unless a change take, place in thel. Now, I «m just proving that God desire, this ch„,^-e ; and . .at" W.1 undoubtedly take place. My op,K,nent stated .l.u , ..a he Methodists were heathens. I di.l not say any such thing. He rosy .hake h.. head a. much as he pleases. I said that ins.ead of going wuh the Bible in their hands, they go forth with olZ' and cannon a, wel , and I said thftt.it were far better, and wo^conceived U ^ be our diny togo as mi^ionaries among hi. Methodist bre.h.en, tha del ":P^;7«<''-''7'"- -ongs. rA... My opp<...en . ^eny the Bible, m much as to say that I am an inHiW. Mes.r. IVioderators, .. .t infidelity to advocate that God ie I.ifini.ely J,>st,raTe ^atthe Son God wa. sen, by this holy Being to save the u^ h.a soul ,nd unllbesamed?- Is it infidelity to say that all men w5 ' wiltr ^T* '' ""'' ''"^ ""• '"PP>- ' ^- ' ^» -« Wiev t^ y loThrtm7rr '''"''"" "'"'P'" grounds:-«for there i, pone lother name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved What IS infuldity? It is unbelief, Now whic.Vis.hegroa.u Sj the two? I believe that God is infinite in aIH,i, perfections, nd ,ha he will succeedm reconciling to himself all persons for who „ he «„ the Saviour. My opponent believes that the Saviour will be rfXerf thata sem.-omnipotent devil will g„ off with the palm of victWy' .nd that tn. Saviour will go back and tell hi, father that he haso"S the res m.ch i, infidelity? The passage quoted from Revelations . not at all to Uiepoint, and he may use such language as .Mish wt^^^^^ t"h the" filt^* T: r '" 7 ''"^ ' '"'« "° ^'^^ »° •'« ~'-t J with the filth indicated m such a course of expression. My oponent aU« .tat^, that they-the Methodists-did send'to preach gLS'^ great joy which shall be to all pe^ , deny ,hi,.' I admit^ hat Uiey are sent to preach glad .i' ■ -.-'v'/ ,:.' ■.,^.^w- ■-:■■■■■' ■ '■■■.; ;....^ -■:■ tovnnity. liu han.llus Uio pasisa^u aa though I w«« iiiilj*riuil it told kgninat my •r^umaiil. I [mg of him to luud llui {Htaattgu us ■lutml by the iiwpirud p«Hmafi " waiting (or the oJoplioii, to wit, tliii rwilMinjuiort ■ of our iNKly/' that is,lhtf Jowaund thu UuuliluN. They shall budulivorvd from tho boiiihigo of corruption. So thoy will. Why iliil ho not liiii»h thu puHHiign 7 Thoy Khali bo dulivorud Ironi tho boiitjuKu of uorruption into the glurioua liberti/qflhe childrtn nfUod Now, I ohiim tlio argumont ^Q Ibis pari of thu debalo. My op(>onoiit haii a«surtud that the paiuuga %ioludo» /w/A Jewaand C»c»U»7eii,, which I cou»idor muludeaall mankind. Burfio doun not stop Ihoru. IIu (jualifioN it liko a good Uuiversaiiat. He aaya thoy »haU be raiaud fiom the duud and inado holy. Thia, ^then, ho has advancud iu the dobtte, that thu pasaago iiicludus both . Jow and dontilo, ami that they ahull bo rai»od from tho doad and inailu holy and hiippy. I bfg hia attention to thu aigumoulLbaaod on tho cluairo of God, lor I ahall aoon leave it on I have aoitte fifty or aixty posiliona to bring forward. Hut if ho cannot take thia poaitiun from mo, ho ciinnot take any. Ho saya all should bwcomo holy a'nd happy. I pevfeutly agree with hiin. I bulidvu thoy will bo holy and happy. My argument based on the deaire of God proyea it, and thia argument he haa not yet touched, flo haa quoted a piiaaago whero the Saviour iaya, « how often would I have galherod thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her ohiukons under Aer wiuga^ and ye would not. He quotes this to ahow that God's Will is deteated. 1 have not intro^' duced tho Will of God. But I will remind him tliat it is tiie Saviour^a language, and he must bear Ija tnind that I cannot allow him to assume tliat Jeaua Ghriat la the very and£ternal God. I cannot allow him to assume the heatiien notions of the Trinity. But I believe that ■JeauH Cliriat Is tlie Son of God, and not the Deity himself. My opponent stated that I 8^ the Metho pHMa({0 idea all mankind. ;ood iriiiversaliat. udu iiuly. Thia, igu itiuludus txtth u duad und inuilu lU^buBud on thu unte fifty or aixty JH poHititm from holy und happy, holy and h^ppy . id this argument hero the Saviour n together, even nd yu would not. 1 have not intro^' t is tlifl Saviour's ot allow him to I cannot allow iut I believe that If. Mjropponent alsehooda. I did d thus ond so. I of his Methodist abate, fori knew ''hat bad I done and had proved be in a difierent id the Laodicean an to attend par- t id a passage in ' cold 01 hot, and I them out of his 1 men on gospel heir sins, oonse- i fy them for the f«)lflltifla of the itiharitanoe of the aaiuli, and haa aeni out the hoialda pf the oroaa to prwach aalvation in hia MoiMmd namo. The exhortMiun i«, Bo yo tliHrttf nntl Imppy, aihI howmti imkii i4n«l Womijii rwmniii ili>||itt#n«v» i<<|u*||y with my (*p|Mint>ii|'thrff (JimI'h (IftNiioM will ho tiiliWifd, niul ihni whnt«i)fl.«r.irii|hfm[t ho •hwlli. Iltt Jflniri-BlhHl w« mny liro a Uh «l holitiitmi in tUi^i worhl, •ml nave hU S«n to tlii«, thai wliii»»HfT»?r Iteliiivwil in hiiii ini^ht lir«, and ho Moiit hi« Klorioim (Mwp^O, to proclaim Ihii truth in our ht-nring that wo mi'^ht b« holy hikI happy. With rot,'flr»l to tho ffiiiarka on | infltlolity, my opponotil in tloHiroiin that you nlioiiM boliovo that I am tnon an infidul tlum ha la. Who ia an inliilol » Th«» man who htiUvyen in Ooi.|i«von morw than (Jod has tniiuhl him? I profeM to bfliuvo wht0m hnn tnii;^hf. My oppom-nt prnl».»(ik.» to b«liovH mom than f;.Hl hn« ^njjhl, and \w whff pruleMon to boliere mor« than <;od has tnuRhl in an Infid.-!, I beliovo that «o wit, the redemnt^i. of onr bmiy. I said in reference to this pasage, we will be deHvefed fr6ra the body of . corruption. I 8.iy that tlie apostle Pattl is >monstrating that the Gentiles will bo raised as well n.r the Jews^] they will bo made holy and happy, as well as the Jowa, in a^ure state; that the salvation was not pmvi.le.! for Jews only, bjjHor the Gentiles and Jews together, eo that whoaoevei wjU may p^rt^eof the Grace of Go.! frpn'y. i d-f < • !'■ aL' t >^ #^ •* mrt« ar« broktn, tch(*iln«M. Thin owciMi iiiKti iin|i|Miiii>ii|lli l(lit»iri)|h'Mit Im M in tj|ki|i world, hiin ini|i;lit livu, h ill our ht'iiring lh« mimrkii on |/f nlitiyti that I urn Th« innn who liti Snvioiir of ail \\M tniiulii him? cut prnlpfiM'9 to iMon to bolisTe (•ou(l )pol tDrms^ nml manilfl all m«n iyi^ri*li(;nlancu, which for. I o rmoiight it eaohera did not r only preached IcHiis Christ by id that he laid 11 comply with loly and happy, y teach.— Then eation groanuth ft but onrsetvof ourselves croi redemnUdii of deHyefed from ^Iwioiistraling; nd they will bo state ; that the itiles and Jews e of Goil frga'y. I Hiroii iiuHviduidn to bo tlillorent from what they uro now. So ho does: ho doairoH tliuiii to boooinO holy and happy ; but my opponuiil takus lliu ground, thiit tiiiA tlo^iro will im unauti4fiud to ult uteruity. Ho said aUo, that (ioti did not doniro to aavo thoni in thoir nins, and wisliod to iinprosji iiimjii llio audiunco the idea that I hwl wiid .so. 1 bcliovo n& auuh tilin^. It in noiihwuso (u . talk of tmlvatiou in Kin. It iaaJilvation/rotn si« that I bo lie vo in. " Lot the wioktwii forsako his way uiul tho urn isihteous inuu hid thouirhls, ond lot him reiurii unto tho Lord." Doos this prove that (Jod'a desire m will bo doffcated? IXjesthis prove that lliu holiness and happinuss of * all men will iiBv^rlako pluco ? Ho «uch thin^. Lot liio wicked man. forsake hts \ir«y, is what I would say to all. And I boliovo all will forsake |Uir evil wuya,— all will bo saved on (Jojuiel terms loo. But mjr oppuuent states thai if ail men .are not iierfuctly happy novifi^thoy novw will bo. How suicidal is such a belief of these tf-stylwl 8vatoi;eli*als ! The IJible says that no man u ptrfectly holy and hapjiy now, nor can ho be uutil he is raised from tlie dead. But aecwrdiiig to ray opiioneiil's argument, if all men u.e not perfectly holy now, they nevur will b«. Tlieii, what surely has my opponent of the salvation ot himself or of his brotlior ovan^ golicals ? No surety whatevtr. I rest my hope of itnniortal felicity ou tho sure and coiluiu fact, that (Jod desirea my ultimate holiiies* and happiness,, and that what he desireth that he doeth. My opponent has referred to the word ditelh iu this paskago as if it were Uol the word; but tho words are, ««What his poul dosilelh tliut he' doeth. No Universalist could frame it in stronger lanyuage than the inspired penman has done. My opponent takes tho ground that Christ saves men in this world, but not iu a future world. I do not i m a g i ne my oppooent believes any ^ttch-thittg. — H ow does ho -1 i- ^ / M' f'lf 1**- (rf ;,/■ 20 that Chrut. does not save men in a future world, seeing that he haa power to reconcile all things, both in heaven and on the earth ; seeing too, that Christ's reign is still in existence, and that his rule and governnrjent will extend into a future world, and that hid kingdom ■ s ha contmue to exist until he shall have mMutd all thing, ? Then sliall he himself also be subdued unto thoFather, that God maybe all IN ALL. My opponent says I stated that God's desires are satisfied in all worlds. I state so again; and in my proof text the inspired pen- man^ has stated so positively: "What God's soul desireth, that he (ioeth. This IS my authority ; and if the gentleman does not bow to that, he can bow to some. other Gospel. Myopponent says, "men and women are degraded now, and God is holy and happy now: may not men and women be degraded iaitt future state, and God be still hpjy and happy ? Men aniwonjen may be sinners in a future life,"— I dcr^ifot say they will,-bHt admit they may be; they may be ' degraded and tormented with suffering~(or a year ; for a thousand years; even for a million of years-that does notimply that they will be suffermg throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity; There is, you will see, a vast difference between punishment that is limited and punishment that is enplbss. God, I am satisfied, will bring all men to hohness^ and hamHness on Gosjpel terms. He will force no man, ' for all will be willidg to come to him, which 1 shalTprove by and by m another position. My opponent believes that Christ tasted death for every man. So do I, and this is'one of my. reasons for being a Universalist Make rne believe thai he tasted death for only a part of the human family, as the old blue Calvinists believe, and I should be^ Calvinist ; but because the Scriptures say Christ tisted death for every man, therefore I am a Universalist, soul and body one. JHy opponbnt again displays the eighth chapter of the Rohians> and there I maintain, there is much>et he cannot get over. He does not seem to satisfy himself with his arguments on that passage. He does Assert froiii It that Jews and Gentiles will be holy and happy; and certainly they will, if the whole creation ahaU be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorioua liberty of the Children of God. To" get clear of that passage in the Romans, too, he has stated that the salvation is proxdded for the Gentiles. Did you not. remark that expressioi^itisjjrorfrfedforthem.? Head the passage, and you will see the difficulty he was in. 'He wishes to draw back. He is afraid there will be too many saved, and therefore he says it is protnded for you all. Is there any such word in the insphed language ? It is "the creature itself «Ao« 6e delivered,'»-not «iayAe delivered, but »haa be delivered,-" from the bondage of corruption "-not into an , an endless hell, but « into the glorious liberty df the Childreii of God »» I have still to askany opponent to stand up and say that God's desires will remainunsatisfied to all eternity. lam glad'he does not. My posi^ I ^ V i •V :i- r )eing that he has the earth ; seeing, :hat hia rule and Ihat hi(j kingdom- II things? Then t God may be ALL es are satisfied in the inspired pen- desireth, that he I does not bow; to says, " men and appy now : may and God be still I a future life,"— ; they may be ; for a thousand ply that they will ^ There is, you it is limited and II bring all men ill force no man, prove by aqd by^ rist tasted death sons for being a h for only a part ive, and I should t tasted death for body one. JMy nans, and there, [e does not seem He does Assert n and certainly ithe bondage of )f God. To get stated that the lot- remark that JB, and you will t. He is afraid t is jprovt(2e<^ for nguage? It is, ! dejivered, but "—not into an lildreii of God." It God^s desires J not. My.posi/' .: i; ■f / ■■ :? % :':1-V ■'■■'.-■ '■-'" '.■-' . .. ■ ■.-.-■ '^V ■•■■■ ■;•-. twn 18,. that God desires the final salvation of all men.. My opponent bojieves this. I maintain that G for that was our salvation, that was our saviour. My opponent next stated that he was a Unlvorsalist minislpr because he believes that Jesus "tasted dtath for every man." I believe this too. Christ has tasted death for every man. " He died that we might live." John fii., 16, "God so loved the world, that ho gave his only begotten Son that virhosoever betieveth .in him should not perish but have everlasting life." ,Buf it is evident that there is a condition in the Gospel 23 9 will olj be saved accept in n future I is the evidence? But my opponent in a future world, but we frequently from misery to tho progressing uiitjf fin is a progresii^'^^ d that Christ^^ii^" is feet. He musi^'^ , and that we will. next tells us he ay hprw long. He [1 the Gosper here 1 in hell, and that purify their hearts nwill the puniih- han the i)angs aqd 1 operations of the- state be-the means terms, buton the Sospel ;iay so ? I that punishment, I I did not know r a bad beginning lis debate and you lys, are saved on ns? They are— . us Christj" and if Y his punishmeHt, they get to glory have got to glory, in glory will be lood, out of every ivill be singing, iTy opponent next he believes that 5 too. Christ has : live." John fii., begotten Son that have everlasting in the Gospel I. J- connected with this olfcjp of saWution. It may bo undorstooil by overy iutoUigciit beuig what Wio coiuUtion is, ** Whosoever bdievelh in him.'" But tl4} liext point must be attoudod to. "Tlie whole creation groancth until now.'* The ApoxVlu fays, " >Vo our- selves groau wilhiu ourhelves, waiting for th»J adoption, to wit, the . redeniptum of our biJiily." Tli« bodit-n of men in the ic-urrcction will bo immortal botlios/ Here, tlionj wo are to be raist'd accoMiiig to the. great truth here declared, that those thai are raised as Children of Gml thou, will be raised holy and hiti)py ;, the wicked will be raisi'd under dilfereiit circumstaiiees. My oppgueut stated that I was al'raid there would be too many ^aved. No, no; that is not so; but I uni afiuid there will h^ too many duped by false teacherri. And if iho Saviour said "Many shall seek to eater ia but shall not bo able," I am all aid the reason will be, lurt because the grace oCijod wa» tiot olfered to them, but beciiuse they did not couiply with the terms cf they did not re«eive the blessed Gospel, > Mr. Lavell— My op(>onent still makes a desperate effort to get clear of the great truth taught by tho apootlo in tin; 8tli ehai>t(M- of the Uo- mans, " Ouisc Ives also, which liave the^ntf/rJiiVnof the Spirit." My oppoueut says there is a distinction here, Wliat disliuctioii is there? If there is one slated, I should be yilad to kuovv it. The only distinc- tionf-if it luay be called so, is that t liey the belieVeis had the first fruits of tliat spiiit which would beerljojed by the wlioie creation when they *' shall be " deliveied from the bondage of corrujdibii into the glorious liberty of the chikheu of Gud. The redemption of our body,' is an ex- pres^iou of the Apostle Paul, and my friend states that this "6t»rfy"_ meant the Jews and (ientilos.'- But here he gtts oiit of the frying pan into the lire. For !»*) says further'tliat the Oudi/s of men will be raised. , Oh ! friend Harris these two statements will not tally. My fril-nd was right when he said " the reJomption of our body meant .lews and Gen- tiles, ' -^and that iVthe whole creation that shall be .delivered into tlie glorious liberty of the children of God. But he sees'the ilifliculty into which he got and wislies to drilw back. Ho wishes yoii to take the ground that it fneans, tiie kxiies of men will be raised. There Ts not one-word about the bodies ii( inan being raised. I deny that the same ideutical bodies of men will be raised. My friend also stated that the^c will be a wonderful change vvlieu this debate is over, i do hope sy, and I really do begin to think, that if the debate conti.iiues us ithashilheito,thereAViUbqcortaijily a wonuerful change. iJiit what side will the change be on. Those who have heard evtMi the fev.' speeches my friend has given, I will venture tas.iy, that there is not an'inteili- geutAlethodist iii>fhe whole land but will say, that my friend hasf not taken the position out of my hand, and that I have provt-d that all men ji'ill ultiiiiately be saved. Hi^.tays there are co:'.ditious in the Gospel. 84 -■ . ■ . I have admiKed it. He wislicB to drire mo into a position in wJjjch I do not^wish to stand-that is,— that I beliovo that if mankind arc no! saved through gospel means, they will be saved through eoine«tl.er jneana. This ia what he tries to make the audience believe. ' But I have stated over and over again that I believe all mankinil will be saved on Gospel terms. Those grouiids, whatever they are, -fliujrt bo coAipiied with, to .enter that happy state. They will be complied with ultimately ; but that the immortal state entirely depends upon any conditions 'With man, I deny distinctly, and demand the proof. I believe there are conditions attached to the «/o»jw// that men must comply ^^ . wilh the conditions of that Gospel, and that no man can be saved unless all the conditions are complied with. Bat I have taken the position that God desires the ultimate holiness and happiness of all mankind, and that whatsoever he desiroth that ho doeth. One of his desires is the ultimate holiness and happiness of all men, and the inspired writer has stated in plain language, that "whatsoever he dosirelh that he doeth." My opponent says God desires the holiness and happiness of all men now. Has he offered one \fotd of proof on this ■point? No. H God deaired the perfect holine38*and nappiness of ^J^^y '>'""'»" ^^^"S "ow, I believe it would be done, for whatsoever U • ^«* desireth that he doeth. God works by ineaus. Cod has instituted certain means that will be effectual in tlie saving of the race, for he . hath given all power-tho fulness of power- to ChriM, to save every 1: individual thatlives, or that shall ever live. Henco I believe that God desires the ultimate .-alvation of the race, and that what he desires that he doeth. To^Jnt the expression « What his soul desireth that he will do," wiU make it no stwnger for the Universalist. Wo J, ' - *''» know that he desire's a^l men to be uhimately holy and happy, and that the Scriptures affirm that whatsoever his soul desireth that he doeth. Theobjection raised is, that God desjresthe perfect holinss and happiness of all men noto, an i ■ J.. Bi' •/ - •;i.' on in wl^oh I (Jo nd aru no*, aave J inu4)llic'r muanit. ul I have stated laved gn Gospel <:onipUed with, rith nltimaiely ; any ciondilions «f. I believe n must comply be saved un)eeB ;on the position f all mankind, >f his desiies is wl the inspired er he.dosireth ) Jiolitiess and ►f proof on tliis 1 nappiness of for whatsoever I has instituted lie race> for he i to save every 1 believe that that what he s soul desireth '-ersaliat. We lid happy, and 1 that he doeth. and happiness hoy never will proof that God > ha.s not given on in Romans an mlytct tn ^ ly does he not made subject \ punishment not take my ■esent me. 1 i not wliether ij.s if: whst I of diSvrence This is tho r pwving to- U morrow. I believe that God will inOict ajubI pnnishment upon every individuttl that viojates bis lawrt> and that no one, even by repentance, can evaiTe the just punisliment of bis /wis/ deeds. For \ believe that repentance looks to the future and not to tho past. For the past he must.suffer, for God has distinctly slated that bo will by no meana clear the guilty. My friend has stated that the sinner must tepenj and be converted. No <)ne objects to this. I believe in this as well as my friend does. He then, taking for granted that I believed in'Si future limiteti ponishment, wisihcd you to imagine that this punishment would be the means of man's salvation. I did not take this position : . —but Ttiy time is ujp', Mr. Harris,— The first passage to which I shall attend is the one in Romans already alluded to. I shall quote it a» it is, Romans viii., 16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God : And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Am, that we may bo also glorified together. For I reckon that the snllef ings of the present time are yot worthy W be compared vfHh the glory which shall be revealed in us.". Is this applicable to all men ? I think not. My opponent wishes to make an impression in regard to that passage, God made man subject to vanity. God created man a moral agefit. He croated man a moral being, and as such he is both responsible and accountable. This will bear out what we said before^ that is, that the Jews„who had the fiist fruits of the Spirit, groaned within themsckes. Wo will have that to-morrow, and the gentleman will attempt to dis- prove tl^Lressurrection of the same body. But we have done with this paslTge in Romans. My opponent stated that the position taken up by his friend will not tally about the salvation of the Jews and and Gentiles. His friend is williug to allow it to go before the world as it is. But my opponent is as ingenious and cunning as a fox that Jh» been ti^apped and lost a lireib. He will not comd near that passage in the Revelations; ar I told him, it was death to him on that iwint. Theie is not ingenuity or skill enough, however, in the gentleman to >. " turn aside fiie sharp swonl with the two edges, which makes liim-feeK in the joints and marrow. My friend goes on to tell us, that all men " will be saved on Gospel terms; but he noVer preaches these Gospel terms, repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These are never preached in a Universaiist Churdi. You might as soon expect to see a white blackbird, or a pious devil, as to hear a Universaiist preach, « They that believe not shall be damned. No, never— never. I believe that all men that will be saved must be saved on Gospel terms. But except a tnan be born again, he cannot enter into tho Kingdom of God. 'feriJy, ver^y,. I say unto you, except ye ref)ent ye cannot be saved . Then th e r e is th e condi t ion w h i ch ,God lay s — 86 I \ down, but my frieiiii will keep away from it. It is, Whosoever bolioveth in tho LordJesus Christ hath' everlasting life. My friend *iys th« immortal state does not dpiiend ujwn any condition 5 so that, yoii se.l|^ (tu* guntloman encourages sin of pvery kind^ He fintt teaches that all men will bo holy nhd happy, and that 'hnpiiiness is not the reward of ho]iiiess,-«)vlmt an eiicpuraginnient tiit)t depend uixmtt'rms at all. But what does the Uible say? '"Be thou faithful unto death, and I Avill qive thee a crown of lifp.-^BIessed are they that (\o his coriimnndments, that they may have right to the tree of life, for ihey shall eiitor in llirouirli tho gates of the pity." These are conditions, and they cunuHt be got by. My friend wishes to imi)r0ij|s upon you tho passage, ; .*' W^lsotnor (lod desirelh that he'doeth,"— n(ft> that he will do. That puts it in the present tense,— "Whatsoever. his soul dcsireth that he doelh." If GotI does all that he desires, and'jf individnals are not holy and hapipy now, — we reilcrate the argument'Already advanced,— that the very same micliange.oble God can remain unchangeably th^ name, and sinners remain sinners, and God have his desire. If he desires the sulvatjon of men now, he deSire^ it on Gospel terms, and on no oth(?r torms, ami except a man be bom again he eannot be saved. . My friend then goes on to say that God works by means. J{6„dQefl notj h(nvevor> wish to tell j-ou what these means are. ^_^X-»Will lell you. I hinted at thorn b^ifore. He works by tlio preachiligof the Gospel — by the iidlnenoes of the Holy Spirit — by the prcaohing of his word among sinners. And how many ministers have to return home and say with the Prophet of old:~Who hath believed our report? With this glorious Gospel of my friend's, is it not wonderful that he iloes hot. make Univorstdists of lis ? ■ But unles.s he can get an infidel to take .^heher in a corner of his faith, he will exist alone in the .belief oi' endless happinessj without complying with the conditions of the Gpspel. He vvent on to say that God would have whatsoever his soul desirethj and he brought in the passage as from the New Testa- inenl, that it might lu^ik a little lietter.' ' He then stated that he did not mention limited punisMhent. He said he did not believe that man would he. endlessly -pumshcd ; but as I have a mind for thawing inferences, I drew the inference, and it amounted to the same as if ha had said iti I would have set it down that he was not one of these hell redemptionists, although he is placed in as much dilemma, for I asked him ifhe'believed in the punishment working out the holiness ftf Then, or if salvation proceeded from the Lord Jesus Christ. He ^behev"es..in punishment, but it is not endless. However, it is as it is. My fri^l then went on to say that G^ would inj^ict a pnni.slimerit upon evfry man, and that no man 'would escape punishment by repentance towards God. He says repentance has reference to th^ fi^ur e,-aHd-tiot-t»-thfr-pa9ti — What-?aitii -tlie Scriptures ^ — '^T^nd that- ■■■■v, ■■/ -.1. \ It 18, Whosoever af life. My friend coiulitioii ; so that, 4 He fimt teaches *hnp]iiiiesfl is not I tt^.liye ill Hin, — • at all. But what , ami I will i;ive fi corhmniKlmentS) r ihey shall eiitor nditions, aiuF they II you the piusHoge, it he will do. Tliat ul ilcsiroth that he ndividnnis are not ready advanced, — unchangeably th9 his desire. If he Gospel terms, and le rtinnot be saved. , means. ^f6„ dman I have discussed with these seven or eight yivns. 1 have -never discnsscd with a man iit^o forlorn a condition as ibe Rev. Mr; Harrisvis at this time. He will Still misrepresent me. IJe talks of remission of sins, and forgiveness <)t sins, which I believe; but if ho tttonipj to prove the remission or forgiveness of punislinicnt, I must ippose it.;, I challenge him to prove before this audience that God forgives a man h'tsjaat punishment', \n the face ofthe declaiation, that he will BY NO MEANS cloar the guilty. I did say that repetitanee looks to the future, and I ptill declace that it does, and he has not lefnted What is repentance ? He said, godly sorrrow. So it i«. nut it is not that kind of sorrow which we see during great proliacted Church Meetings. We do not see it there. Godly sorrow for -in is lepiMilance towards God, it is sorrow for the past. How is it sorrow for the ^ y\ "pSsT? The sinner "Has done wrong, be has been convicted of \ ■ '•^?' ■■ b \ ,.,y. that wiorl-j, and hence reponts. I Oo believe in the jfform of th« indivulu;,!, an.l re.Mraints which look to the fntuK^. But repentance doe, not look to the pa-t, for a man is not forffiven hi. just punish- mertt. He must suffer for his »ins, and I maintain that this suflering w one oi the means that has brought him to repentance. How was It m the c.ise of tiie prmligal son. His words were, I wilt arise »»d go to my farther. His repentance was thus brought round by punishment in the providence of God. Certainjy (br he repented and returned to his father's house. My opponent says - tha gentleman does no^ preach the gloiious gospel. I maintain that 1 do, and If he Uoes not take my position out of my hands, the ^mpressiorr will be left upon the minds of the audience that I do preach tho j,l„ri,n.8 Gospel. He then asks, Is it not wonderful that tlie gentleman cannot make Universalists of us? He has used some pretty hard la.iguage in relation to pious devils, in speaking of Univer- nalists to-day. I say it is not at all woh.lerful when we consider the manner in which he conducts himself in 4his debate. It is useless to throw pearls before swine. No, friend, I ctinnot convert you to Univer- sahsm «, long as you mil not be convinced, let the arguments be ever w> strong. He said alsotlie e.vpression was, that wji.'it God desireth that he doeth. Give me your attention. He said h*' "believed that God desired the ultimate holiness and happiness bf all mankind, and he «aid that whatever Ootl desireth that ho doeth|— not wiU do.'» Then he maintains that God's desire is defeated, for h^ believes God.desires all men to be holy and happy turn, hut he is defeatetl in his desires. Now either Mr. Harrishas manifestly uttered that which is false, or all metl are perfectly holy and happy now ; yet he admits that God desires this state ultimately, and that what God desires he dpeth. I have shewn that man is a ;)ro^e««/i,e being : that the twig must be a twig before It 18 a large tree : that God made man subject to vanity ; I have pmved all this, and hence, as God desires the ultimate holiness and happiness ot all mankind on Scripture grounds, I maintain that " ■what8(;ever his soul desireth thaj he dokth." I ended my last speech by saying some Uiuversalists did believe in a limited punishment ; but no Universalist believes that afterhe has 8ufli5ied a just punishmem for his sins that thereafter be can claim the mansions of everlasting bliss. After we have suffered for what we haviubne wji have no claim upon the Deity whatever. I maintain Ithat the immortal state of bliss is norcondrttona/ but «ncondi. / } ■ M -^ ho jpform of the But repontance I his just punish- hat this suflering Bpontance. Hovr were, I wilt arise brought round by for he repentud ment says — the I inaintain that my hands, the dience that I do Dt wonderful that e has u Ned some Daking of Univer- ti we consider the It is uselt>sa to ert you to Univer- rguments be ever God desireth that lelieved that God! mankind, and he il]do.'>.Thenhe s God .desires all is desires. Now, I false, or all men that God desires h. I have shewn be a twig before y ; I have proved IBS and happiness " whatsoever his 1 by saying some- it no Universalist for his sins that ng bliss. After a no claim upon state of bliss is he gentleman to in support of it. is not of works 9t what yre have violate his laws, 1 puts his finger ">« will undo that •ufIbrin5;.bi,iti„,ho moral world of God.' So he inu.t 1 w^ « . , future, u„.l not p,„ ,,1, f,„jjor into the fire Sol. 7 ^ °"* '" ho m^.t look out in thefuh.m „ i . ?/ , '*"" ''" «""""'«' •"« u the frui.ofr;;«:ei";i';:r' ":'■': """-'^— '^'^- ei^uh chapter of Roj::,, '^ : ^t t:llt"""'"'''"'^^••''' *"- . "Man was created subject to vl ' » savf h T. "'" "■''^''• .With the expression that,^man i^T:!^. Z^.::JZ:Tr, '"' admituLmLi.;^^;:;.^ ;::TS^^ ' I wdl not say much in reply to this. Butl\vill corr..ct hi, 7 man may say to tho contrary, > w-Jvwrwit aentlu- . '' TUiaDAY APTElliVOGN, TWO O'CLOCK. m HAna,8.-The first thing that I wish to notice is the com lorgavesins, but did not remu punishment. That is to say, salvation ex rema. How do we understand the idea of forgiveness ? Let mv chid offend against me and bo forgiven. Well,\e approaches Z with ears m h'*. eyes, (ind says, Dear father, can yofi^c^^^^l,""! would say. My child, I forgive you this til; /hope ^l :;, J o^nd so any more But, acconling to this new the<^, I .he,; tJ^ the horjewhip, and apply it to the little fellow's back ; but he J^t. ZnTnlV P'""'^'"?™^-" severely. Well, I should think tlm was not forgiveness. The Saviour tells us what forgiveness is. h' .W»> Acertaiu man-had two debtors, the one owed L "e iund"; pence and ,he other fifty; and when they had nothing t; p ,, hj lovoh.m„w? Simonaaswered and said, I suppose thVt he to whom ■* < ^ ^\v . , • t' ,■-■■■ '*' W- hw forgnvn nwwt. Anc! tho Savlriur «»i«I unto him, Thou hmrt Wghtif juilijutl. My (kpiHiiioiird viuWH ult(»m)lliiir rovunio tliu Suviour'ii,'iditu> of tbrgivt>iii>«)!*. Tho Lonl in iiiurcy m»vo inu from aufh lurgi.v<)iit!M. My op|)iit ))fliovi!s t!iul ('«>l forgivus thu sin, uiul yol ulilurwan'i puiiiohi'H fill' «(iiiii(>r (ill tliitl hJN HJim (InMiirvt). Thin iiutiuUliiuNjivi ^ ■atvatirtri. We iluii^t wniit hiicIi furgivMiu!)*.-*. ilu luixt rut'it4^^,r()pun> lancu 118 l(N>kiiig i-ntiroly to thu luturi!, itiul not to thu pii!|f;C his name, whosoever belieyeth in him shall receive tfte remisssion of their sins. My opponent stated that repentance belongs to the future ; ami I denied, it and brought fonyanl the case of Judas ami the wicked Jews who had crucified the Lord of Glory. But when tHSpjTrwere cut to the heart Peter did not say, they would all be punished, but repent and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. These were not Peter's words ; but, Repelit and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. My opponent stated that my arguments were calculated to prevent men from embraciiig Univer- aalism, as they would not wobrace Universalism bO long as I acted ag : J ■:^ !x- ,.v^ n Thott hunt lighUf t iucli furgivvtitiM. iiul yut uliturwun't ixt rofi);iitUnriu;(8." Tho tttu iluya whoiLtho y uf I'untiicuHt, ho lo {{uinut uf llio tkiur uf life i«cln)in<3;\ I, Haiil, Thest) ura \ tliinl huur uf the ruphot Juol, And it' ill puur uut oT my tora shull prujihticy, I rnuii sliiill il{t>atn uf thu sumo pureat ifso wickoil JuwS| , your father yo do. LMi thu Spirit uf the s abmiul until their o their sin boforu k^the salvulion of . •aceful camp meet- ee days durutiun at ,nd fishes, and they of thu refreshment ent went to cgnfirm itaof their punish- u all the prophets/ II him 6hall receive id that repchtano« t fonyanl the ease the Lord of Glory, y, they would all be of the Holy Ghost. be baptized every )Sion of sins, and yd lent stated that my embracing Univer- long as I acted ag: , Mo .o. „...,.,.,, hoy win do .,.. Km,,., f ......,,.0 ,h. „ir of ■M^en. Ho (hon went u„ to -ay Uwit (M .|,.Lf,Hl tho .jnal hol.noM J. va..u.. on (;oH,H,l .,.rm.. an.l .ha. ho do.iro- tLir .al va.ion now. 8 Paul -ays .a 2 Cor. vi. -2., lU-UM ,»w i. .h/acuopied ,i,.u. : 1 ol„^ . ijOWH. odayof ^Ivaiion. Thi. in tin... L., ,L,„. j, .J ^^ 1 -day., yo,. w.ll hoar h., voioo hanlon /o, your hoarts , (or .nm iHl-hanlon tho.r hoarts vvlu,« ,hoy hoard t/o Word of G.hI. [.. ordo^ M "If".**"' "'^""« «f«°'n»"t '•U"'.«er; myopponont .aid, oi.hur Mr Hurr. or ,ho .V^„w.io ha.l ,oId a fal.olu«H». 1 .To ..o. wi;h Vu C un. o..,.hkU« m.m.on,truin;< tho ar;..o„.\ho„ Joat o„ ,o ..y .: evory man « ho„ 1 1.,, p,.„.,,..,,, „.|f, ^vory man do^orvo. ,., ho puni-hvd. Nuw would l.ko to know how much puui,hmont a |i„ J,orvo' would i.ke ,0 know how much puuishmonl au oath desorvo.. ij ' opi.onon. k..ow. |ot him speak out in the „„mo of lluivo..ai;.n.. Jt J..m oil „ r.,ht out. Henoxtweuton to ,ay. that pnuishmo... k"! me..tor«,^u.auov. Thi. ,VomaUaive..di.t is.o...oAa, ......^ « » ..m.u« rom th. wrr.n, source. Tho wn.u. vein h„s 1...,,. ,;,,„." T u J,or.p,uro. say that tho Goo.h.os.s of God loadoth men to ropoulLL-e lho(.o.,p„|„( .h«b!e..od Savi'ourwas s..ut .o mo,, .o lead thorn "o n3j,...„,a.„,„.,, to; turn them to Go^. My op,K.„o;,t il^:u d". I>o.,..«n byHayn.. .f a ohihl burnhis fi,.ger howould hoar hi. Hu.r.-rin phys.o«lly But does that p„,vo that he coul.l not .lo i, a..,;.., .re any.ho.,.ko Godly.™ in that. The ma„'« o„,„,no.r I ^^ b« bew. ere.1. In the nameof common .onse will me,. a..d .^Z th,„k th a K0.1ly sorrow My opp<,„ent said I have not at.endod .o the e.«hth chapter of the Romans. Well I haVe«ai.l e„o«,.h o,. that chapter, and you w.Il have the pleasure of reading it by and by My opponont next referred to man beiu. a moral agent, and no.vt e nuuin-J whether man .s a,l indepen.lent a«ent. I want to know w ItW man commmed murder without God helping him. !r«o, ho is inde- pe,.dent. If moral he is accountable, and if^not indepond n he ^.o acm.ntable. A man shoo,, his fellow man. is it the man o th ba that .s. ho moral a,e„t. The man undoubtly „„ account ofhis .„ra agency,.s,accpuntablo.otheGo-° -»-«^ -r v- "w auu,^. .»(: \ at th e ro o t of his a rg umejit . / / V 1 14' A !:•. •''■ \ Mfl ■ ■^^^ .:>■ t' 11 '• ■■■ ■'. Mr. L*v«U,— The only pnrt of my fififml'ii oprw^ lb wlilcfc t Wttd iwfer Ik lh« Inrt fow worU li« hiw Htlim«l. If« mym ( know ihol Um dvllw of (JihI wim .l.'fottliHl in lli« «•««• «f «li« LiMHlu'fBii Churrh. I kiiowno wicjh thiiiK, un.l it I* for hi/HTpniVV Hurt Ih.* iltmirtt of Vm\ w«« Jtifimlixl ill «h« oiiMj of thi) I.iu).lir<'iin«, iui.l lo provo H'\n Ihn fma of the iiii^iiroa iHJiun.ui, who nnyn whnt^iHJVur (S«h1 «l«mirrlh that iir Doi:rii Ho Kuy* I tlurn not loii.h Ihiit paMajju in HMVt'lntionii. Yi««i I darB,.unil will Kiv« inm mom Ihiui lin run (lc» pn-Mtiilly on tJiiit vory IHiii^a;i(». It will niino np nt its proper tinus.whon I nhnll rail niwrl m> frirtinl to clear np th« tiilHcnlty tliiit will uriw. Ho 'o him; an«l thon, aner the father whips his child, he asks-what kind of for^K^ncM in that 7 I would like to know where the mmtlemaii loanw fetle^railin!! ideas of punishment and f jr«iveneB«. Has lie no more elevating ideas ofit ? I maintain that the child desired pardon and that punishment was one of the means of bringiiij;» the child to its father to got pardoned. I brought forward the cose of the prodigal Hiin, and showed that because ho was puiiisho.1, hi. was toduceo(i« that the idea inl. Tho jlluiHtmtiou I \CMB, and ankfl iU whipn hia fiiild, ht) [ like to know wh«re nent and i »n\veneis«. that the child dcnired t of brin;;iii}» the child 10 cose of the proUglile«u ■ hundred yttars a^u the words were exprnsMMl. Five hundred years ago tho same expiosMion was made,— now is the ai^cepled lime, Tlia pres4)nl day,— now is the ao««|)ted time. Yeani hence it wJW be the saine,— now is tlu» accepted time { and so will it l*« until the kingdom of God is dehveited up to the Father, and (iod will In) all in all. What bthemeaniiigof the word "day**Jn that |NissagH7 ( call upon my ep|M>iient to prove that it means twenty-four hours. The word •< no, not even if the poor follow is rolling in misery. My (Jod I ha* || come to this ! that a Minister of the (Joapel in the nineteenth century Will maintain before this audience, that (Jiid will not grant the poor sinner who may be rolling in misery, the privilege to repent : no, no* even if he bega that privilege. My opjjonent will labor hani to prove hero that if a man do not repent in this life he will never have another opportunity. But he may labor till his head is grey, and will not Jbe able to prove it. My opponent sUted that I believed punishment leada men to reiientanoe. I said that punishment Was one of the means in - the government of God that led to repentance. Then he stated that it was the Goodness of God that led to repentance ; tlUtl is good Uiiiver- aalism. It is not the preaching of endless misery, but the aoodu^tiqf Go4, that Itada men to repentance. I am glad my friend is prognasing. He maintains that man is a mural agent j (so do I ; but I do state that man is not an independent agent ;) and therefore, says he, if man com- mits murder God does it. But I say that Clod's acts aie' infinite •nd the consequences of them infinite. But the actions of men are fiftite, ai^d their oonoequences limited. This ia the position f occupy, and to remove it my opponent ought to maintain that the consequence of mens' sins are inJlnUe and endleu. I will proceed to my .Second ^ ai«uraent. I build this on the fulfilment of the Laf of love, every man being commanded to love God /ally and supremelyj and hia neighbor as himself. This is ahown in Ma^hew xxii/3a-40: « Master, -which is the Great Commandment in the Law 1 » " Jesn* ^1 ■# ■'■■: Jk \ * \: \ . a a id unto him, TTtou ahalt lov e the Lord thy God with iJI thy heart;" ) r i i-7 ' and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great oomraandraent ; and the second is like unto it, Thou shah love thy neighbor OS thyself. On these two eommandmenls liaug all the Law and the Prophets." Love to Go§[uired compassion he deserved. No, tbrace without any equired of him a,U him at the time h« ^ t ^ 35 was in a foreign land. My opponent said this wa^ a perfect illutlration of the dealingsof Ciod. Let us look at it pno moment. Heretho pro in the present tense, to forsake their sinS. If I were to preach on this text to-morrow, I would say, "Now is the day of your salvation. The message of salvation is always given in the present tense. There is no to-morrow about it." My friend next contended that men will have^the privilege to repent in a future state, and jvondered that I. should deny this. What is repentance? It is a godly sorrow for sm. Well, will men have a godly sorrow for sin in a future state ? This point, however, we mil have up to-morrow, when I come toth« question, « Do the Scriptures teach the doctrine of endless misery forany portion of the human family?" so that I will not spend my arguments upon tljjg|ill It comes up. However, I would be real glad if ray friend would give us any passages of Scripture to prove that men repent in hell and turn to Godl If he dq^ will furnish a,-,m»ent8 tatneet ^ ■»' jjf* \ # ererything bionght forward on tlu» point. My friend Went on to say that the conaequences of men's crimes were, not endless; that thej^ ,Were all finite; that whatever we did, had reference only to this world. I will quote the verse I quoted this morning : <* Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." What we do now has reference to the future. «*Be thou faithful unto death and t&ou shah receive a crown of life." "I have fought the good fight, henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord tRe righteous Judge will give me at that day, and not to me only but unto all those who love his appearing." I have got my opponent t» the second argument. We have squeezed out the second proof text. It is based on the Law of Love. Ifhe cannot prove that every man loves tho' Lord with iall his might, hie will not have asinglerayof hope concerning the final holiness and happiness of all men. But is not the contrary the fact^thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself — that is not fulfilled in our day. Do not seme men take out license to sell liquor, and sell that liquor and demoralize the people, and fill our jails and penitentiaries with the victims of their cupidity ? Does not every newspaper, does not every intelligent man declare that there are individuals living in a virretched and unholy state ^ Do not the Scriptureb- my the works of the flesh are these— adultery, fomication, undeanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatr^, variance, emulations, "wrrath, strife, seditions, heresies) envyings, murders, drankenness, revellings and such like ; of the which I tell you now, as I have also toldyou in time past; that they who do such things shall not inherit thd kingdom of God. There is a nail driven by that passage which will . not be drawn out easily. There is a proof of love. Some men love their neighbors even unto death by depriving them of life. My friend quoted a passage in proof of the Law of Love : « Love worketh no iU to his neighbor" ; but what does this prove? If it could prove that a man loves his neighbor as himself it niight do.something, but the wind has blown his aguinents 'right back in his faw, because they are not based on the truths of revelation. . Mr. Lavell.— If declamation wd bombast are to be considered evidence in this debate then the gentleman jbpposite will undoubtedly gain the .victory. But as declamation and bombas^are not to be received as evide|te in \his debate, I shall stand some chance at any iiite. I shall finli^ my argument on the Love of God. I now maintain thiA the Law of Lave will be eventually obeyed by all mankind ; and in proof of this position I present you with the words of our Saviour, the object of whose mission was to bring about this Law. He says, in Matthew v., 17, IB,— ''Think ye that I am oome to destroy the Law V the Prophets. I am DQt come to destroy but to fulfil. For rerily I aaf ■f. ■ ■ -1 .; ' ^ \ iend ifrent on to say endless ; that they e only to this world. Jessed are they that to the tree of life, ' 'What we do now fito death and tEbu fat the good %ht, eousness which the , and not tome only .ve got my opponent le second proof text. )ve that every man uive a single ray of }f all men. But is i^ighbour as thyself take out license to 1 people, and fill our supidity ? Does not sclare that there are )o not the Scriptureis- cation, uncleanness, riance, emulations, rders, drunkenDess, now, as I have also shall not inherit thd passage which will love. Some men them of life. My ve : « liove worketh ' if it conld prove do. something, but s Cmmb, because they ire to be considered itewill undoubtedly ue not to be received ance at any rate. I now maintain that ankind ; and in proof r Saviour, the object le says, in Matthew roy the Law V the I. Ffff Terily I My \ sr ; onto you, till heaven or earth pass one jot or kittle shall in nowise pass from the law till ^U be fulfilled." Here the Saviour declares thatVhe . Law of God shall be fulfilled in every jot and tittle. What is the fulfilment of a law ? It is the bringing of men to an obedience to its demands. Thus. I finish my argument drawn from the fuifilment of the Law of Love. My friend can make the most of it. He naid that I maintained that the Prodigal suffered his punishment and could thus oome back when he chose to his father's house. Imaintained nosuch , thmg; but I maintain that the punishment was one of the meaas of bringing him back to his father's house. But he'had no claimsipon his. father, because he had suflered the just punishment of his sin. I . did maintain that his father's love was unchangeable when he was in . ain,and I do maintain that no circumstance can take place iii the character of a child that will warrant the father throwing off his obligat.ons,-that will warrant the father to dfive the son from his own ^f : for the obKgjitions are binding until death separates them. My friend put the question : « How linany will come to th{, Saviour ?"' The fact is he forgot to tell iis. "AH that the Father giveth me," Jesus says, "shall come, and hirn that cftmeth unto me I will in no wise ^ caftout." My friend said I would not tell how much punishment is •necessary. Now, I would not tell because I could not. An all-seeing and perfect God only can tell bow much punishment a human being requires. I. said I was satisfied with the punishment our Heavenly Father would see fit to inflict upon his child^n, and I would rather take the most degraded inan that should die in the depths of his iniquity and place him in the Wds of God than in the hands of the best mau that ever hved. God is unchangeable, and he is the father of sinner*. I agreed with my friend.that the Goodness of God leads men to rep^ntance.--Even, says he, the gentleman preaches the Goo<^ness of t^.^I maintam that the Goodness of God gave the Pmdigal his punH,hmen^ ; and also, that all the punishment man receives eomes from tfie Goodness of God. When the physician comes to a sick man, he does not ijome to give him pain or to kill him, but to restore .him to h« wonted health. It is an evil to take medicirte, unless taken tojestore the health. My attention Was next turned to the passage, "Now w the accepted time." There can be nodifle;^nce betwTn * L r; V "f"^ ****'*** *™* " **"""? '^^ <^"«P«» dispensation, , jnd tliat Kingdom- and dispensation shall exist until God be all in all My friend represented me as saying that men will not have the privi- lege of repenting, in eternity. I stated that his doctrine of endless and immortal agony precluded the idea iff repentance in a future state, for he declares, Ifman is not saved here he neverVill be; butmyfriend will be contmuallymi^representingiiae here to^ay. He was not goinir to spend his arguments 5 be thinks he has pierced my soul so often that _he_doe8 notjwishjo_9pendJus arguments^^^rfiould^Hke-to know^aw— • *l m. '•i ti n 1 / I.'*- many ar^m«fl/« he hns spent to-day. He quoted a passge that reada ; "Blessed are they that do his cominandments." Who denies this ? He ftaid I . hod squeezed out another proof text. The fact 18,4 have laid oUt ;fifty to seventy positions to present in this debate. I have had the posi- tion based upon the desire of God, and the gentleman has not attempted .< to take it ojit of jny^hand. I have given him 'the second one, and I iitend to give him more tliis afternoon. He statitid in speaking of certain fruits of the flesh-;-ili Galatians, I think it is— »hat they who do suuh things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I believe this as heroes. But he has not .shown that they shalliiot ultimately be reconciled to God, and be made finally holy and happy. I do not believe any more "than he does that when .men do such things they sliatl inherit the Kingdom of God, not until the individuals doing such thirigk have refoniied aild repent of such .acts an^ become reconciled to Godj and so will it contifiue as lung as the Kingdom of God exists; and so will it exist until they shall all be jeconcile^ to God - the-Fatherof all. My friArid says if the gentleman proves that all* do noto love Gu --' . '■:' . -* • , ■ ' ,•'!.■' ' ■ . '_ '" " ^ - , Mr. Harris.— rit appears to my friend that if declamation and bombast would c{(rry the point it would soon be carried ; but "f would ust say. that there is something in this noise, other than tbemere noise itself. My friend stated that the Law of Love will eventually be -■fulfilled; but he gave jio evidence but that contained in the words> "''"One jot or I one tittle shall m nowise pass frpnitihe law until all be <■ fulfilled." Everyone acquainted with the Bible is acquaii^ted with the Moral Law ; then, tlieiV) -is the' Cerempnial Law,^and the Lttw of Love— three lAws^ Did Chrisi come to destroy the'LaW of Love?' What is it ? '" Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart a^d mind and stretigUi." The word "fulfil," iiieans to accomplish, bid Christ come to-accomplish the whole law of God? ^He loves sinners with.a love of compassion, but not witfi the love of thp Father.* Every man that love;^ God, loves sinners ; but we read that Johpwaa the beloved disciple^ and that the Savlpui^loved John better than the rest of the disc iple s. Bu fwe have n o evidence that t hin is the trorra * 'it<- a passgo that roacU : Vho deiiitis this ? He fact i8,>I have laid out I have had the posi- aii has not attonipted i second one, and I itiud in sptiaking of is — that thej- who do I. I be1i(}ve this as iir not ultimately be d happy. I do not do such things they Jividuals doing such \ become reconciled he Kingdom of God be jeconcild^ to God an proves that all' do I , ha's a bearing upon ve God, evidently, it kriptureifttach 0iat t the proposition. It ippineas of all men ? m the IJaw of Love. r all men. 1 have ^6t (Hie jot or tittle o^ lesumiand ^1)stfince ul and strength, and if declamation and carried; butT would than tbemere noise will eventually be tained in the words, L the law until all be 'r I is acquaii^ted with .aw,^and the Lttw of the" Law of Love ?' ith all thy lieart ai^d Eo accomplish. JOid ? /He loves sinners ■ thjB Father." Every that John vrak the better than the res* * / ■ » %i meaning of the pas«age nnder considfemtion. " I came not to destroy the law, -but tofjilfil." What law is h..re referred t6? It was nndoubte it is evident that my friend is not reasoning right. He looks npon God ' ' a^ a father only, and not also as a moral governor. Oofi has to sustain ■ the relation of father arid of moral governor of men, and vre should keep; jif mind .that God sustains these two relation*. We see a child ^ ad#ed Into a fAmlly receive sometimes twice as much punishment as - V thS child that belongs to that family. God is the father of the spirits . of allflesh, and ,those that are comforted die united to him ; he is the " i father of all, the creator, the redeemer and preserver of all men. « Ye ' , * # have received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father. The Spirit itself bearing^ witness witH our spirits that we are the children of God. We cmne aigain to thei)a8sage: « Him that cometh nnto ra^I will in rfo wise ca.st out." My friend said he could not tell ' how ranch punishment sinners de^rved. How then can be tell it will not be endless punishment. Just as if he had said I don't know how " . fanlis to such a place ;,but Ikndw it is not so as far as you have named. .. He knows they will riot,-he know* they do not deserve eiulless pun- ishment butl|e cannot tell how mucli they *) cTeserve. thentheold- pass^-emth* Revelations, he keeps away. from. But he went onto speak of Gq^ as the unchangeable friehdand father of sinners, forgetting all the while what Chrkt said, John viii., 44 : « Yo arc of !/our father iihe devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do : he ' was a murderer from the bbginning, and abode not in the truth, because th^re h no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh Q| his dwA ; f9r te is a Fiar and the father of it." He next ' ' . went onjo say that many were punished all they desefved, and ' " while he was speaking I.thought in imagination, I saw a man entering into a tavern, and I saw .that man dnnH of the iiquid-Fife until ft produced delirium tremens, and L ^id to myself, is that wtiat God -^nmshes thal«uu with ? How can it be said that God punished him ? 'n. i ' 'HI w / ». m / z- .:.;^-, CSod did not gire him the liquor. He hM said <' Woe vnto him that gireth his neighbour drink." The indivfiduals that goon a drunken. spree, are not punished by God. Men iln such, a case punish them- •elves. In order to prove his position he spoke of a physician who gate had fiiedibines; but Christ is the great physician, and4ie will gire the good medioine. Will give them the sweets of his grace. I stated that man will not have the privHeg$ of repentance in a future state. If he yrill give any evidence of that, I am rejady for him. My friend then quoted . the passage-^" Blessed are they that do his commandments." But // I enquire : do all me? do his commandments ? He wants to make out that they will by and by ; but the Bible says—" Evif men will : wax worse and Worse." They go from bad to wiorse in the degrees of sin. He then statkl that he had brought forward between fifty i|nd sixty arguments this morning. If so they were so weak . that I really forget them. They really vanished with the^ breeze for , I did not hear^hem. - I hope my friend will bring* forward stronger facts. He then talked about the fruits of the flesh ; but^I did not say anything about the fruits of the^sh. It was the wtrlU of thejffe«A • ., I spoke of, and the Jruils of the tpirif. I stated, however^* that I . would admit the proposition if he proved that all men w^U Haally love God with m their hevts and all their minds, -ami soul and > strength ; and i will never preach another sermon on endless misery. Mr. Lavell. — I conceive that I have proved- this proposition ,' already. It is the Law of Love which is the suria of the whole Law . ' and the ProphQts. The Saviour sums it, all up, by saying. Not one jot .( of tiftl6 of- the law will pass until all he fulfilled. I am willing to let the argument rest upon that. My friend statei that the Saviour loved isinners ; but not as he loved Saints. I warrant he Will make a dis- tinctiori here. . I dare say he does not love a poor degraded sinner, as he loves- my righteous and pious friend Mr. Harris. If he does not \-: love the sinner truly and sincerely, then he is open to the .charjge in his own words, Jf ye love them- which^i»».««...... J. /: ' Woe viito him that lat go on a druAken. a case punish th«m- of a physician who rsician, aMl4ie will in their inmost soul Jicine; but then he ° d that mail will not \e. If he yrill giro friend then quoted nmandmcnts." But He wants to make '8—" Etif men will vX)rse in the degrees rward between fifty hey were so weak with the^ breeze for ng* forward (itronger h; but^I did not say le vmrk* of the jffe«& ed, however^ that I all men will iiaally linds, -anti soul and n on endless misery .^ ved- this proposition lia of the whole Law^ f saying, Not one jot t am willing to lc$t lat the Saviour loved ; he Will make a dis- degraded sinner, as ris. If he does not en to the .charjge in ^hat thank have ye 1" fb. Thei gentleman 1 has for sinners and it really and actually 1 efemity. Re dare • suffering was .one 6f iy and impelled him . I would not tell you n I agaiii. It was the ce any other reason*, pehtance. He said. !^ •*■' ■ - I •«:.. ■■■■' ■ . '.■■•■ the best of all proofs ; for Vrhen hftJAiir him yet a great way tif, he ran and fell on -his neck and kissedpn^.' He did npt ask any questions about the reform then. He did as a father, as ev«ry true genuine parent would do upder similar circuraMnrK^es. My friend says, God is a governor, as well as a father. The cUarapter of Covei'iior js included vtk the "word father when applied to God, and I milintnin that he Bovems all things,, and that his government an^werH the end for which it was instituted, namely, The good of every intelligent being .that lives upon this earth. At| that the father giveth me shall come to me : andhim that comiithtonte I will injMi wise cast out; John vi.,37. -^ He says that God givetti him penitent sinners } but I maintain that " (Jod giveth allthingB into the hands of his Son, artd all that the fatlier, giveth him shall cdrae to him." We have blit the barefaced assertion v that God giveth the Saviour on/jt penitent sihneis. My friend asks . me if I can tell how much punishment a sinner deserves, I cnnnot ; '^but I know it cannot be endless, from the fact that punishment cannot \be endless. If God intliot a punishment that would be endless, it Would be downright cruelty. What would you think of a n^aii beating his son and then throwing him over a precipice, and then • going down and throwing him into a tire and roasting him |o death? . Would you call that punishment? No, eVery one would call it down-; right cruelty. The suffering, however, here ends. But (iod, it is said, whose luime is Love, will take some of his children whom he ha» ' brought into the world without tl\eir consent, and consign them to endless and immortal agony, for the sins of this short lif^ The very idea of the tiling is absurd. The very mention of it is sufficient to " : ahow ita jfjaJseltaod. But to proceed. My Tliird argument i8.,drawn frbm the parental character ij„.zeM men iadiMolH,,lience,a«stUl hi» children, i. P a uly^8Ut«d ,„ Scr.pt..re. " My aon, .Jenpine not thou tl,e chastening of the Wd nor fanit when thou ..rt.rel,uked of him. For wimm th, re uvelh. '-^HobrewH xu., 5, G. . For.wlMit doe- Goasten, rebuke H. «cour;je h.« children ? I« it not for'their disobedience and «i„? fetill he calls them ,his Children. Again. A voice was heard upon hish , pImM, weeping and aupplicalions of the children of Israel; for they hnve rwrverte ^ .The a/recuon of our heavenly father is of such a nature as that of a ^CK,.I earthly parent: but inHnitelystixiuger and mpre enduri„.r. Oh' «oa ask brea.1, w.ll he g.ve him a stone ? Or if. he ask a fish will he § ve h,m a serpent ? If ye then being evil, k,u,w how to giv/good : fe-^As unto your children. Ao«» m«c/* ,«ore shall your heavenKaC M ..." '"..''«"^^" Siye good things to them that ask l^m?"- Matthew vu., 9, 10, II.. Here it is proved that our heave^ Father enter a.ns the same /eelings of love towards all his of&prijg that the r he '"? '"'' ^' """ ^''''^'«" ' '^"^ ♦" '^ -«" gr£ degree! for the words are, «H^ much Wore eliall your heavXFatht?" Again : « Can a woman forget her sucking child, that /he should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, theVmay forget, yet -111 I not forget thee.»-Isaiah xllx., 16. Th/affeLn'o/ ^ T Lf^ '' r formers enduring than that o^a mother for her. babe What wotild a good father not do even for Z sinful child? He . ^ouW do alAior him that he possibly could. He^uld still k^^ . and make >.m a good child if he could. Yet/we are told that ou heavenlyj^ather-whose „atu«, is love, andlhose love i, infinitely stronger ihan that of an earthly parent^wouhf rather consign his own offspring to a place of ento, and consequently unjust and unmerciful pumshment, to blaspheme his name (whioii is Love) throughout the : engages of eternity. But the stamp J/a/«A^ an Idea, m these passages which I hav/ quoted from the BiWe, and many others which I would quote did t^e permit. ./•• ^i^oddbeinlfilted^ana that all meV woirdToTeGod jVeT^elack the i^fV&mui^-^ I a tie of nature, and prosMMl on the mind God ta his parent ; till his uhiidren, is : thou tlie oliUMtening im. For witom th^ ory son whom he jwU^asten, rebuke obedience and sin? foa heard upon hijijh of Israel ; for tliey the Lord tlioir God. 1 your backslwliHgd. arGod."-Jeremiah Gould still love him, are told that our > love 19 infinitely r consign his own 1st and unmerciful e) throughout the I is pnt upon such m the Bible, Hnd ted that the law i » \ •vidpiwe,^ wo have only the bare assf'rtion. lit thon stated that God did lo/u sinners. But it is one thiug for God tlsrlloVfl sinners^ and ' aoollior thing for sinnerH to love God. I (idmit tb^l (! ■ 1 < W1m»a»*s. n and OMlk to rooorcl » uiu\ dimth, bivMiing )u and ttiy seud ptuy uotud to chtMwe life ve come to the thin! vtu my fritsnd's finit Oiu prophet is her? Hu went oil to the or of the Acts of t)ie sitons, and redd from to Buy their prnyttrH, wants to make out ■ pmyurs. lie next her bo in subjuction >f Gotl do sometimes hem nearer to God. i; but sometimes he Ipveth ha chasteneih y friend next quotetl heir way, and they >ack8lding children, ■ate, that is the very that the affection of atrecfion of earthly was with them ii^ •ugavestme I have perdition ; that the . to the Saviour and. t* love. lelbayektpt. He d asrame* that the- lost to all eternity. Brtion for that. Dr. on this very subject final ilamnation of [lis as well as I do. [lory, honour, and attend to him. No' 11 result from the e. 1 believe that- He believes also bied a question that larmed, I will not i jroa what grouiuls H it h« believes that. W* will seo wether h« believes that any individual can be made endlessly holy and happy, by complying with certain conditions in thii life. If this is the oni^ time and ground on which a man may hope for salvation— then "Goodbye" to all infants, and idiots and heathens. If he does not lake this ground, : he banishes the idea that any conditions are absolutely niccMiary on the part of man to enter the state of immortal btiss. If^ my immortal happihuss depend upon anything I could or Can do, I despair of ever getting there. And if that Male dejpend u|)on anything on my part, I Would far rather not run the risk of gaining that state,— for the chances are ten thousan|^mlllions against ond— I would far rather that my Go«l would have sent me into this World an idiot than thM I shonid run the awful risk of being consigned to BNotBss and iMMoarAt ^riowv. For what is it to be an idiot for three score years and ton, compared with the sufTering that must be endured through the ceaseless ages of eternity, (fed, my friend says, offers the sinner " life and death, " so he does: but not endteta lift and endleaa de^itk. But this does not meet the difficulty. 7/hehad proved,-Godoflor»the sinner emtfe«/i/i and endleaa death he would take the position out of my hands. My Fourth argument is drawn from thij Love of God. We have known ajid believsd, the love that God hbth t6 us. God is love ; and he that dwelleth in love ; dwelleth in God, and God in him. Ux John iv., 16 : St. Paul denominates him the God of Lov*. Th* God of Love and peace khall be with you: 2 Cor. m., 11. /God is Love itself. By this we must understand that all the moral perfections of bis character are only ao many modificatidns of this atUibute, hence we ^annot conceive of any justice in Cod that has not love is.its princip^feature-for GoD„ w* John itt, 16 17: (]od so loved the World that he gave his only b«l ihuu kiiuw>4liH l)«luu«!inKH uf (he oluuiln, Ihu woudrfiua workit of liiin who is perfect in kiM»wl«(lf{«. Job xxiv, Ir Smiin;; (iniim are' mt hidden from (ho Ahni'thty-. Uamh xlvi, 10: I am Cod, uiiil there it noii« •1»« J I am (JinI, nn, they may forget, yet will I not forget tTiee." How eircouraging this is to every child of God. GtMi is addressing his children, and he says: « I will not forget thee. Behold I haVe engraven thee upon (he palms of ray hands." How opntoliog ia that promise to the children of God. But Dr. Adam # into Gmi nm nit li!a xxvii, Ki; Duxl Ihuu work* of him whoia niim ar«' not hidden , mill there i» noiiD taring the 'cnd/nym ihnt aro ii<)l y(t dona ly pUmnuio." Thor* th (k nt tha olrouinM.,„.-,m of ih„ ,>»m.. W.t ,,r„ ...Id that JMdas w.nl and hn.,«tMl hm,«,|f. W« nm told that no n,u,d..r..r hath elwrnal l,f„ „b,din« in him. Jn,|.,* wa. ,i vvi.k...l «,an a.id h- di.^l in his sm«: ni.di...rh.iiM. h||puiiiM.,n..i.. wn, hi. I,nn:;tntr, or hi- |,nii«i„* wa. hi. pu....h.ii..„t, s, jfurHi.w„„t lK,lh way.. So if JudaVn »„„. Ishmmit WH, H„,lur«.l hS; it wa, inf|„.,.,.| by hi.nM.jf. My Irini.l thrn Wferrnd to inn.nl- nn.l idiots b.-i,i;, m.ved ; I w„„|,| „„|y ,„,. „„.,• „,., •ved ns pamiire aK-nt,. John i., 'ift. .. He,,,,,., „,„ ,.„,„,, .„.■ ,,,^, whi..hfuk..thnWayllM,Mi»of the jvorld." I John il., a, •' And he ja the propitrntion for oar si„,. an.l not lor oiirH only. h,t „|*, for x\m «.in. Oflhe whole world"; so thrtt inl'an., u,.d idiots are .u(.. in ,h„ |,nnd. of Almighty irtd \M hi« «hoi,'.« he would rather have In-en w. Vyhat m that but myiu« I.,* rhi* andienre that he Is „orry he is not a fool. He IS m,rry he i, ««**,« n(*l)le. I„ he r...t,afraid of tho puni.hm..nt thnt awaits him in (rottm,,n,nce of his nccountubility. If idi»», and infants are saved, and if aor^ntable beini;, nre savd, why is he .orrv that he was not Imm an idiot. The.e are thin,., that cane ri«hl home to him. My fr,H„.l then stated that if 1 would pn.ve that the p««.a«e which I quote.l,-«I <,ot before you life „„,| death, ble^s^ ^ cursing,»~n.eant endless life and endless death, he w.inld In- pJpnW to make a reply. John v., 4():" Ye will not come unto me that ye mx.hx havol.h,^' rh« i„ „ot natural life, but spiritual lifo. Ephe««n, ^' V^ * . " *^^ ^'' 'lU'^'kene.! who were dead in trespasses and stns »» My fnend s nex: .argument is foundnl on the Lc»vo of Gotl. 1 J<,hn iv .' 16; "<«Kl m love: and he that .Iwelleth ill love dwelloth in God, and Galmhim." But does Go*> ye will be saved, but •< Ye are saved ; and hath raised ut up together, and made 1U sit together in heavenly place$, in Christ Jesus." This ia^^the text. It comes right to the point: believers sitting together in Iwavenly places, in Christ Jesus. Malachi iii., 6 : «»Iairtthe Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Because God remained to be a father unto them, and because he did not change, they were not consumed. What a good thing it is to have a good fiither. My friend's fifth ai^ument is founded on the Foteknowledge of God. God knew all things as they are, and his perfect knowledge will lead him to see things as they are. Soloilion says— Eccles. vii.i SJ9: « God hath made man upright ; but they have sought out many inven tions." But my opponent takesanother view of the matter. He says, the mercy of God and the justice of God, had they foreseev man's disregard of the offers of salvation, would have cried out, « Leave him alone in a(|rtate of non-existence. ButGod brings them into this world, and invites kll men to become happy, and consequently holy, and after ke has done' all this, he is forced to cry out, « Ye will not come unto me that ye Height have life."— Acts xv., 18. Known unto God are all his Wteks frran the beginning of the world. Job xxxvii., 16 : " He is perfect in knowledge with all things, and he knows that ev^ry sinner may be saved if he only comes to Jesus. John xxiv. 1 :" Times are not hidden from the Almighty." God looks upon die children of men ; God sees all the children of men ; but is that proof that they wjjll be all finidly holy and happy ? I think not. / Ml. Lavel&— I will proceed to my Sixth argument. I build it on the Justice ot God. God is just Deut xxxii.,4: «A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Psalm xcviii., 9 : *< With , righteousness 'shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.'' Prov, xvi;, 4i ** The Lord hath niade all things for himself." Blev. v., 3: ** Jtt^t and true are all thy ways, thoii King of Saints." Job IT.. 17: ''Shall mortal inan be more just than God? shaU a manbe more pure than his Maker t" Justioa is a fundamental principle in the Divine Government Psalm Ixxxix., 14 : « Justice and judgment are the habitation (tf thy throne; meroy.aud truth shall go bdbre thy face." What does Justioa require? First, I answer, >4t demands that the ^guilty be panishe4.'aeoordiBg to their deeds; second, it demands the ebedienoe of all men. Infinite Justice demands universal right. The ffi- f lore then, being now trough biov^ Thank Gid thirough our Lord Ipesiaps ii., 4 : " God, thhe loved ns, even together with Christ ; d ;)" "ot, ye will be ip together, and made IS." This ia^the text, together in heavenly lithe Lord, I change med.'' Because God i he did not change, it is to have a good the Folreknowledge of lerfeci knowledge will ays— Eccles. Vii.i 29; tught out many inven the matter. He sayit, they foredeieuir man's :tied out, >< Leave him - 8 them into this world. ]uently holy, and after . Ye will not com6 unto nown unto God are all } xxxvii., 16 : " He is owsthat ev^ry sbner xxiv. 1 : " Times are 01. die children of men ; of that they wyi be aU gument. I build it on ,4: «AGod of truth Uinxoviii.,9: "With i peopje with equity.-' ;8 for himself.'' Sev . King of Saints." Job God? shall a man be mental pirinoiple in the tice and judgment are \\ go before thy face." .4t demands that the Bcond, it demands the I universal right. The 19 ' , •^ question arises. Will the olain^s of Divipe Justioe eterbe satisfled ? or, Does Infinite Jattice lead to forgiveness and to obedience' I maintaiirthatitdoes. Psalm Ixli., 12: '« Unto Thee, O Lord, fietonirrfA mere/; for Thpu tenderest to every maiv aeoording to his work » Here 1 we are informed that Justice and Mercy are unitnd in the government of God, But endless misery is not «50ording to deeds. »a»mu^ as It IS «DL..s The«rf<»e it is opposed to the Justice o God-4nu„gres.ion, and sin, and that will by no means dear the guft^ Isaiah xi T ''The Spirit of the Lord shall r^ up^ iL , t^^% wisdom^ and undemtanding ; the spirit of counsel and migM; the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lonl." St. Pwl sav. 1st Cor., ii. 7: "We speak the wisdom of God in a rnvstery'^lTS; hidden .mi»«, which Q^ J«.ah xlv., 21: « Am^not I the LotT? and thtre U no gS IL besidesme; a Just God andaSavrour, thew is none beside. me» ir K^^^J^f'"*!^''* the Jurtioe of God will be satisfied wi'th nothing short of the in«cUon of punishment accorfing to deeds-the nghteons punishment of all mankind. My Seventh ai^uraent I basi onthe M.«JV of God. Psalm Ixii., 12 : « Unto Thee, O Lord. behnZ t Me«y." Psa ™ Ivii 10 : .Thy Mercy i. ^ u^o the h a^5' 1st Chron., XXI., 13 : « Let me fall now into the hand of the Lord • for very great are his meroies." Psalm ciii., 8: « The Lord is merciful andgracioBS, slow to anger, and plenteous in Meioy.»» Eph. ii 4. G(,d, who isrich in Mercy, forhis great love wherewith heloveduV » Psalm cxlv.,^8:^' The Lord is gntoioos and full of compassion : slow to anger, and of great Mercy." Micah viL, 18: ''WhoVa G^d like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgre«ion of Uie remnant of his heritage? he relaineth not his angeTfor ever because he deuohteth in Mercy." It is the naluie of Mercy to ^ ^aad to relieve the suflerer; it desires the happiness of all, Jdnev^' can be satisfied with the endless misery of any human cieatnre. And we are thus drawn to the conclusion thai Infinite Mercy will be Mtisfied, and consequently that all men will become holy and happy. Theman bus neverexisted who could harmonize the Infinite Mercy of God with the doctrine of «,dlk.. suffering. The very nature of that doctrine puto the stamp of falsehood upon such an unmerciful, such an unjust sentiment. In replying to my wgumeot founded on the paternal character of God, my friend said God addressed those tUt ove him But I brought forward s^veial passagea to pmve that God love^ some that were slnnew, and that those that were sinaers X" ■• :' ' ♦ ttO he (ienominated hw ohiUlren. My friend beliavea that the moo who live* by faith is • obiki of Clod} but in utother, and a diflerent sense from that, I mainUin that God is (he fathdr of the Spirits of all flesh. The belioTer is a ohild of Ged by adoption through faith : bat, beyond all doubt, Ood is the Father of the Spirits of all flash, and this character he must sustain throughont eternity. All mankind will be childien of God in a still higber Miise than by faitb. My iriend ^alladml to my remarks in reference to Judas. He said Judas went out and banged himself. We know that Judas died under peculiar ciniurn- itanoes, but whether he hanged himself, or whethor his bowels buist out with grief, we cannot say. Bat I maintain that the repentance of Judas when he threw down, the thirty pieces of silver was thorough and sincerei*. and that yon will not find an instance of more sincere repent- ance in the Scriptures. Where will you find a person having $500 that will come forward as boldly and manfully as Judas did, and repent of the course he had pursued and throw down the money. Such instances are rare. You will not find them among those who go to those crazy ** protracted meetings,*' and « get religieii," as it is called. They get religion, but keep fast hold of the money they may have wronged their neighbour out of. I do not believe in anoh repentance. Throw down the money, and repent and sin no more; this is godly soripw. This is trvte repentance. The salvation of in&nts and idiots troubles my friend mightily. He says they are passive agents •, so they are. He then quotes the passage vrhere it is stated that Christ is the propitiation for our sins' and not for ours only» but for the sins of the whole world. He says, ini^nts and idiots are included here. Yes ; Uie wobld is in- eluded: My fricfod (alls short of the amount I did say that ( would prefer being sent into this world iin idiot. I do say from my heart that it would have been better t<> have been sent into this world an idiot, than to run the risk ¥ i I. .' ...■•^ .' :it ^ «« Ye ought nther«4P forgive Am and eomfoit iinif lest per- haps, siich a one should be swftllowed'up with overhiuoh iorrow." Thia w^ a letter Paul wrote to his brethren in Corinth, telling them to take a inafMi>ack to the ehurch^q had repented it hn sins. Isaiah xiv., 2: '< Am nijtt I the Lord 7, and (A«f e t« no God else besides me: a just G(kl and a Saviour : these is none besides me." -.Poes this prove the final holiness and happihciss of all men 7 No! the Very -reverse. These are ihe arguments my friend bas drawn from the Just.ioe of God. ^ You- wiilsee how far they beai^Upon the point At issue. We have next, ' '^Pialm ixiiv I*: "Unto thee, O Loi^ belongeth Tnuercy, ' for, thou - renderestjo every man according to his work.'* I am astonished that, kmy. friend does not bring forwiird- something tangible to prove his ^lipposition. Paalm Ivii., 10^ << Th« mercy is great unto the heavens, % ai|t thy truth unto the cloudsS^' 1 Cition.'sxi., 13 : *< David saidiiinto ' God, I anwin a great strait ; let me fall now into, the hand of the Loid; '* for very. great are his mercies; but. let me not fall into the hanA ef > man." Well now, do«s thisVlove the final holiness and happifiess < of all men f The fiOsd is merciful and gracious and full of oompassioiii. " Mr.'LJkinEtL. — ^Wel], my friend has gone through with^his lessen just ap a school boy does. He qnotcid ope passage, (bi^ I do not know -what he has done) — Isaiah xlv.,* 3,— where the Prophet speaks of God as a just God and Saviour. He does not showthat God is UBJQst. H^xloes not s^bwthat it i» inconsistent with God's character to be just. 'Khe were to prove thafQo^^as a God of jiutice, and that-this justice neveMvould be s^sfied with anything short of the future holiness and happiness ni 9II men, if I opp9s«4 that doctrine I would ^eel bound fo meet my friend upon that grouiidalone— but his presents nothing here against the final holinesci and happinesi^of all men. I pretend to have brought that passage forward as one of my proof texts for the justice of .God, I drawmy argument from the fact that God is just and that his jus- tice will n^ver be satined with anything short of the final holiness and happinesp of all men ; eo th&t you see I have nothing to reply to. I do not bilng forward the power of God as an a^umeqt for the final holiness and happing of all hien. I incorporate thikt attribute with seme of the positions I have taken. I now proceed to my Eighth argument, which is' founded on' the pleasurs of GodI It is the pleasure of God that aJl men become holy and happy^ This we learn from the language q£ the Apostle/Paul— Eph. i., 9, id: « Having made known., unto uathc; mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of tiiftes, he might gather together til one all thingl in Christ, both which a(e,in heaven an4 which are on earth, even in bim.'^ Here St. Paul declares it wasin\a?cordan'ce with CfodVwill and pleasure to purpose in the fulness of times to gather all things in Christ Agaiut Col. i., 19^20, : 9rt»ittmM>, --^ ~ - \ tfoit ittRf Mtt per- OTsrinuoh iorrow." trinth, telliog them to t 4f hia sina. Isaiah id els6 beeklet me: a e." -.Poea this prove 1^0 ! the Very -raveraa. >m the Juat^ioe of God. ssue. We have next, ' eth 'niercyi for, thou I am asteniahed that, tngible to prove hia eaX unto the heavens, % 3 : « David saidiinto the hatid of the lAni ; fall into the htenA ef > liness and happifiess nd fuUof oompaasioa. rough with-'hii leaaon •' ;e, (bi^ I do not knovr le Prophet apeaka of iwthat God ia unjiist. 'a character to be just. , and that-this juatioa us future holineaa and I would^eel bound ,to nresents iiothing here ' « a. I pretend to have texts for the justice of I just and that hia jua- tbe final holineaa and ling to reply to. I do It for the final holineaa ,t bute with aeme of the ^ ;hth argument, which iaaure of God that all rom the language of :e known., unto ua thq sure, which he hath f the fulneas of times, ist, both which a(e,in Here St. Paul declates ir^ to purpose in the Lguut Col. i., 19f 30, ^ - 1 ,♦ -5 . 4 •■■■■■■' ■ ' ^ ' ' $ '■ ■ •5* It, pleased this Father, that in hi rti should *11 fulness dwell, and .- having made peace by tl»e blood of-hl» cross, by him to rooonone all tfiings unto ^in»*lf ; by him / $ay, whether theff be things in eartK^ 6t thinga in heaven." Will God'a pileasure eventually be accomplished t I maintain it will, laaiah Iv. 10, 11°: "As the rain cometh down, and the snow frbm heaven and returneth not thither but watereth thj earth aiyi maketh it briirg:forth and bild, that it may give seed to the aowei*^ and bread to the -eater, so shall my word be that gtwh foft(i put of , my mouths it.sKall not retuhn unto me' void ; but it sliall accomplish that which, I please, and it 'a^ntf prosper in the thing whereto I sent iL'» Psalm cxxxv., 6: "Whatsoever the Cord pleased, that did he- in heaven and in earth and in jhe>eas, and " all deep places.', Isaiah liii., 10: "It pleased the Lord to bruise 'him.' Hehathpul him to grief ; when thoi^ shalt make /lis seul ao Vfieringfor sin, lie.ahall see hia seed, he shfill prolong Aif days, and ^the pleasure of -Uie Lord shall prosper in kib hands.; "Jiaiah xlvi., 10 : «' My qoiinsel shall atand,^and I will dj^ail myv^e«i^me^»» Hera God declares in emphatic language that hfiVfiU do all l^pjaeatufe: My Ninth argijmetrt ia based^on the^iwiLi. of,6bd!.- God ^w^ thft' ^ aalvAtion of allien.. Eph. i:, 9,10':. « HaVihg ma^ knbwii'unto'uK the mystery of hia wilVaccording^io hia plelisu re, which be iiath purposed in himself; Thaj^in the. dispeiAiiori of iiie.fdliieas of tiine,r he mipht gather together in one all thingfrln jphrist" 1 Tf'im., iu^4 : .' «< Whb.yill have airmen to' be sav^; and to comedo the knowledge' of the i>ath.»» This plain- language of Scriptuire dboldes the, question^ ^ better than all the oree'ds and confessions of fi^ih formed by.erring men. " ; They may contradict this plain tesitimony of. the Bible; but iutelligent wen^whohMe more conlidenoe in ihe 6ible than in mere human ; creeds, will «Iieve that, XM mU hivij aU men to be saved, and to • conjb to ihe knowled^b of the truth. Will God's ..WiLib? ultimately ; accomplished ? Wluit creabre dare affir p* that the.Wifl' of God witl " be defMted. If,God is a perfect being; .^hen his witf thit all men ' shall be saved must be done in^due-tirao. One of these positions must- be taken,--Either, first, God dan save alltewi, but wii-i. not, which ia - an impeachmentlof his infinite Goodness ; or, second. He Wonib sffve all men, bijtcAkMOT, which is an impeachment of his infinite Power;,, qr, third, God will and fcAN save all men, whiuh last position accords to', him infinite goodnes, iiifinite powei, and 'infinite wisdom, and makes,": him A PEiirKCT God. But the Scriptures' place ^is'maltei beydhd a doubt, and distinctly state that this will eve/itu'ally fee accomplished. John yl.'; 38 : I came down from heaven, not4o tlo mine own will, but the will of hirh that sent me. Apd this i»,th» Fath^a will «Mbh hatk ' sent me, that of all which he hath giyen nia I should lose noTOng, but , ' •heuld raise it iip again at the last day." V John iv., 34: "Jesus aaith . URtothdm^ ftly meatistodo theii^Z/jf himtltat sent me, and to rYifisq /^ .1 ■.'*■#.• ;'^' vl**' ^^- / •54 !*' )i hii work.*' To finiah Aft work, tffhioh i« tho MlYatido of the whole world. Chritt i« » complete Saviour, and will aooompliah the Father'* toill, and finiah- his work. How can Christ riNiiu bis Father's worlu if iie does not acoomplish his will. « Dan. iv., 36 : « He i|Mth his mU in the array of heaven, itod amoug the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his biuid, or sa^ unto him. What ditest tho^ t',' Again, fiph.i., 11; "Being predestinatad ifocording to the purpose of bint who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," not after . the wiU of man, but after the counsel of hi* own tiriU. This language is decisive. Here, then, we baVie established, that God mU$ the s4lvation ol all men. If iny opponent takes the grodndi that God'a WILL ever will be defeated, be virtually assumes that God is imperfect, and hence not God at aU. But my friend believes that God is perfect, and works all things d^er the counsel of his wUl ; therefore all men must be saved. And my arguments ffonv the Soripturea affirm that they wilL Job zxiii., 13 : '< He is of one mindfind whooan turn him f VidtDhat bis soul desireth, even that.hd doeth.". Turn which way you will, there is a difficulty to all who believe ia tiM uitmer^ ciful doctrine of endless suflering. ^ Or will the genllemaii; ^y 'tliat man is a6so attributia of God, for the reasons I assigned i^ the early part of this discussion, Micah vii. 18, Who is a God like unto thee> that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remr nant of bis heritage 7 he retainetb not his aiiger for ever because be delightetb in mercy. I believe that with all my heart and always will. My friend said, infinite meiey was inconsistent with endless sufierihg . :V. ■■ ■': . ^,":. Ivatioa of the whole tompliah the Father's u hie Father's worj^ S:« vrilL This language that God mU$ the ie grodndi that God's liat God ia imperfeot, IS that God is perfect, III ; therefore all men icriptures affirm that idwhofi^n tumhimf ."^ Turn whieh way ieve ia tlM uiiiiier> genllemauv ^J tliat ILL of the Almighty ? liite one, an^ not free are him this agebcy. Creator. Iholdt^t ix.,18,16: "Iw^l rill hare com]|>sssion t is nift of him that lat showiih mercy." We should be a kind "-^ ■■ ■ ; '■ '■'■*-■, T\ 1 ., . ■ " '■ 1 '.r ;; « l- •;•:!•# ■_.■(; , , « 4«l J / " *>■'■■ 'l-'. % •-;\ : •:; , /■ / ^ 1 'fTH^^ w >:,'i ■^ IF ill •AeB /ibfloounMl of hia own will» that we ahould b« to Um pr«U«bf ' hu^lory, who fint triuted in Chritl. In whom ye also iriwlM, after I ye beard the wwU of trulb, the Goepel of your salvation } in wdom 0, after that ye believed, ye ||ire aealed with that Holy Spirit of miM which ia the earnest of our inheritaooe until the redemption r the purchased poasesaiun, unto the praise of his glory." 1 Tim, ii. Who Willi have all men to be saved, and to oome unio the know- ledge of the tiuih." Here it is declared that God will have all men to home to the knovi^ledge of the truth, and he will then save them /Do all men come to the knowledge of the truth ? Is not tl^ia will of iGod frustrated even in this way ? It is uodoUbteJIy, and if Universal- I ism is the truth, how is it that we do hot oome tu the knowledge of " it, for not one in a thousand believes in Universalism. It is the will of God that all men be saved; but God is Willing tu save them only on Gospel terms, the Saviour says. Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life. God invites them to "be : lAved by his Grace and accepts of them through, the merits of his son, and invitee them to share his glory in the spirit land. Mr. Lav«iu— The gentleman stated, jn reply to rtjy argument drawn fro^ the mercy of God, that infinite mercy allows men to suffer here ; then— says my friend— they may suffer to all ete tnity. I oon- tfhd that the argument is unsound inasmuch as suffering in this life is > limited and not endless, therefore thaij^ia no comparison whatever between them, tf infinite mercy alk^wed men to suffer endlessly here, ^hen we might conclude that they might do so in a future world. My fji;ien4«»y», hpw do you know that Judasrepented ? I know from the best evidence we can have,— he threw down the thirty pieces of silver, / ^e returned theilNgotten gaih, and he weiit out and then hanged himself, / "or his ^wels burst asunder^— brought on, no doubt, by the awful act of lirKich he had been guilty. But admitting that he did not repent, it vrould hot prove that Judas is endlessly suffering at this time. There ;i»,jio evidence of Iheendless damnation of Judas, and Dr. Adam Clarke states.that there is no evidence of the final oorndemaation of Judju.in the sacred texu', I call npOh my friend to, «hew (that his paw>age8 do speak of a punishmeni that is endless in its nature. .Why does h* bring them up then, if not todefeatmy proposition ? Then his criti- cism of my argument, druwA from the Will of God, is really amusing. He says, 9^do lill men come Ko the knowledge of the truth now ? "■ and because tliey do not, therefore GoJ's WillU frustrated," Yes I a Chris- tian Minister of the 19tb Century has the effrontery to stand up here and assert in plaia laiiguage that the Will of God is frustrated^ leave^this to go to this public as if is. But the moment he lakes the ground that the Will of God is accomplished, that moment iny prc^ition is proved. He cootradicU also the language of iDspiration, for th^ several passages V; M. ■vmmmi'^f^ ■,t- uld tw to th« praiM of i ye alio triwlM, after ur salvation ; in w||om' h Uiat Holy Spirit oi until the rede.mptioa tia glory.*' 1 Tim, ii. ' come unio the know- 1 will have all men lo will then aave them bt la not tl(ia will of Jly, and if Univeraal- to the knowledge of veraaliam. It ia the il ia willing to save •aaya, Ye will not I invitee th«m to "bo the merita of hia aon, ind. ' ' : ■. ,,,:,_ ." eply to lOy argument allowa men to auffer all etetnity. 1 con- uffering in this life ia ' ompariaon whatever sufier endleasly here, ft future world. My ? I know from the :birty pieces of silver, then hanged himself^ / :> by the awful act of he did not repent, ; at this time. There nd Dr. Adam Clarke laation of Judju.in hat his pasoages do . lure. .Why does he* I » Then hia criti- J, is really amusing. . he truth now? and ted,». YesIaChris- to stand up here and itratedT^ leave, this Ices the ground that >rc^position is proved, the several passagea ' " ■ " '-' -' .' ''M ■' \ ■ ■■■■ •■ 1/ ,/• " ' ■ ■■ ' ' ■ ■' ■ ■ '■ ^ '' ' 1/ :f'-: I ha' re quoted from the Bible, show that the Will of God shall be aecom iL iha L , I is no power in heaven or in , - le makes an oflJMt with a quotation,,from the Saviour, <'Yjh will not ooma unto me that ye might have life." But this has no bearing , wWever upon the Will of GdU. Ue has alito the pie»umption toitand' up here and assert that the Mercy of God is not an attribute, lie denies that the Merjoy of God is an attribute. I would ask him^ow he knows i the Goodiiesa of GmI is an attribute T ''How he knows that the Jus- tic^ of God is an attribute, or the Power of God is ari attributuf 7 Jus( in the same way that he discovers this in the Scriptures, in the same ^y will he4i«oover that Mercy is an attribute. If Mercy is hot, odoees is iiot, afid Power is not., My Tenth argUnknt is drawu fro -^ • f l*f' . ■ ■' ■ '. *• ; ■ Lord atiall b«jM)rforme(l ngsintt Babylon." This proves thst if God purpoMtl to utve all, hia purpoatf would be acoompHahed. The gentle- man has paaaed overmy argument, band on tho Foreknowledge of tiod. This he will not, he daie not touch. lie merely admitted that God does know all things, and that ia all I can glean from what he asserts. I stated that God knew all things. He knew what would be the cha- racter of every dhild he created. He saw the end from the beginning, and if the end of that child wete to result in endless and immortal agony, I said his attributes would cry forbear, and would say rather let the child remain in nonentity, than create him for suoh a doom. But the passages my friend has avoided, and so will every man who endeavors to maintain the idea of endleis and interminable misery. Mr. HARars.— Johni^i.,38: <'For I came down from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.^' It was the will of God that Christ should die fur ail, for without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin. John iv., 34: "Jesus said onto them. My meat is to do the Will of him that sent me." Jeeus made an atonement for sinners. He came into the world to save sinnet«, and he said that it was his meat uid drink to do the will of God. Daniel iv., 35 : " He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among' the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him. What doest thou?" This refr^rs to the King of Babylon, at the time he was taken from his throne on acooont of his great sin. He heauUfully says. No irtan has a right to enquire of God why he does so. If he brought down the King of Babylon from b>(* throne on account of his sins, ia that an evidence that he \Jriir lift up every poor sinner to the reainu of bliss? Certainly not? Eph. i.,2: '* Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ail things after the counsel of hi* own Will." This verse is. brought op agaiiv; but does it say they ever will be brmight to a knowledge of the truth. « God is willing to save all men. This is life eternal to know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. 1 John v., 10 : " He that believeth on the Son of God hath this witness in himself; he that believeth not God bath made him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave o( his Son." - Job xxiii., 13 : <' He it inone mind, and who can turn him 7 and what his soul desireth, evea <&af h^doeth." Sid God desire the Laodicean church to bd in a diflerent state? Yet they would not change their position, and as moral agents God dealt with them. My friend says, man is a moral agent; if so, he is aQcountable,^— he is rewardabte And punishable. Rev. xvii., 7, is another proof-text brought forwaid by my friend, but it has nothing to do with the subject ; also. Rom. ix.. 15, 16. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, und '1 will h a ve comp as sion on wh o m I will have compa ss ion. 8o ^^s^s^^r^f^^^'* ia proves that if Odd iplishod. T1i«gentl0>- Foreknowledge of tiod. ily •dmitted that God from what he a««ertfl. hat would be the cha- id from the beginning, BndleM and immortal id would nay rather let lim for auoh a doom, o will every man who terminable misery. ; own from heaven not to me.^' It was the will the shedding of blood 34 : " Jeans said onto int me." Jeeus made rorld to save sinnetn, to do the will of God. ' in the army of heaven, one can stay his hand, refers to the King of one on acooont of his right to enquire of God ig of Babylon from )ii« sethat he«iirii(t up linly not? Eph. i.,2: )f him who wo^keth ail is verse is. brought op ght to a knowledge of rhis is life eternal to whom thou hast sent, f God hath this witnesf ide him a liar, because Son."- Jobxxiii., 13:, '. what his soul desireth^ Lodicean church to be change their position, [y friend says, man is le is rewardable And xt brought forwai d by subject ; also. Rom. will have mercy, and a,ve-eompassioiw -8o~ (. then it if not of him that -vyitloth, nor of him that runneth, but o( God that ahttweth muroy." Ckni is a God of oompaaaiou, and ha wiU have compauiuii u)>on every no'ul uf man that wilt turn unto him. Ilo is bound to have oompaasiun upon every one that turnuth unto hiio* James i., 18, is another proof text, — « Of bin Own will begat he us with the word uf truth, that wesliould b«|akindof first fruiuof liia creatuies." That is, we are begotten by the word of truth, through the bonds of - the Goapirt, and are made Christ's by leoeiving the knowledge of the truth. Again—Phil, ii., 13: <* For it is God which wurketh in you both to will and to do of his pleasure." That is, God Worketh in him and makes him a christian." Exekiel xxxvi., 36, t27: «I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keup my judgments, and do them." My friend suid that I. assigned no reason for considetiug Mercy not an attribute of Deity. 1 already stated that meruy oould'iiat have been exorcised hud man neYer become a fallen being. We will suppose the ineicy of God to have exisited from all eternity. There never then was room for tiie exercise of mercy until man i«ll ; and since, auoording to my friend's theory, all Irnen are to be finally saved, that.attribute will remain dormant ; for Mercy can only be exeroisod to#ard those that are fallen beings. We have evidence sufiioi«id. ' .Tho pMaaago tlo«e not any God mlU thia to taku plaoo, and that if it dewa not }aka ptacn hia wiH In dMrealmt } but it a»ya, « t would that ye way of escaping this oonolusion.unleaaby taking it for granted that the Angels ifi heaven sin and sufrer. 1 would call the attention of my friend to the words, "They who shall fie aooomfted worthy to obtain that world, and the reaurrection from the dead.** It it acknowledged in the Scriptvres that »ll the world shall be raised St. Paul declared, «That as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts xxiv., 16: «« And have Aqf>« toward God, which they themselveH a.low, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, -both of the jiist and nnjiist." Paul, being a Ghristian, did not hope that any would be raised unjus^ for that wout^ have been an unchristian hope. Nor does niyfrrpnd hope that any will be raised, unjust, and if his hope is as o^tensive as Paul V he mijst hope that -there -will be-aTeii^eoiionofThe dwdjiofH^f the justANp the un[ui»t ,~ :;.A 'W 17 to-morrow, In r«g«i4 I hat pMMm* in R«v#<» hot.^* Thin I know h« •KuiflM Iho WiU ul <;<>d. )lao«, and that if jt doM '• I would that y« w.» Our )t the Sadducees. He ; 2nd, That Those who tt they should be equai ive unto Ood. We are >xist in the resurrectioii usion unlesa by taking 1 sufFer. 1 would oall who shall fie aooouifted rm/rofii tkedead^" It I world shall be raised even so in Christ shall lave hope toward God, >e ii resurrection of the ng a Christian, did not at would have been an fiat any will be raised. ilVbe mijst hope that lEejustANp theun[uift. I 01 4 He must admit thi« to prove his endteei punishment theory, .lor there o ubtam that wofid . and the resurrection of the d«a4l,—/n^|Me' alllLat'isounled worthy, this proof text triumphantly sii«taioa'M|4w<>^JplP^^ Why did our baviour nay so if he did not winh us M^mMttyVfiiUj He May*, '* in the fwsuireoliuii thoy nvitlutr marry nor are gi*«ifM^«>, '() Lord; aiul shallglorify ihy name." My Thirteenth argument I t^ke from Paat^n xxii., 'U, !M: '* All the tfndsuf the world shall ri'menibifr, and return unto the Liurd ) ami all the kindreds of the nulions hImII worship before thee. For the Kingdom i« the Ixird's, and he i>tthe Ueveniur among the nations." Here it is stated a« plam us luj,iguage o%n make it, ttuU all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before God. My Fifteenth argunriMnt is taki»n fnm Ptalm .cxlv.^ 10.: " All thy work's' shall praise theu, O Lord; and thy samla ,sh«ll blQsa thee;" If „ all God's works shall praise him, then all ftlPiMrgflOt bejjn^s.ehal^ praise him. Will it be' to the praise of God that inuumerabla, millions ot .his- rational offspring will be plomrod in aint Will the blaspheming shrieks and the endless mi9S|ff condemned spirits in hell praiHli. the Lptfil How is it poasibT&^^Rtt the so-called Ministers uftbe GOs{)el can b* in so deep igiioruncu and, biindnestf Hew can people entertain »n idea so moustruiM? Kvery J unprejudiced man munt say that all mankind must be broi^ht to love* and p;aise ai>^ *4<)i'« ^^ ^' «v^r* My Sixteenth argtiment is based on Isaiah Vxv., 6, 8 : " And in 4his moiiitttiiin (diall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat' things, a feast of wines on the lues, of' fat things full of inacrow, of wines oiv th But *\ ■sf '0 / 1 4 w > * H •'± ' /. 'I'S thirg to maintain the final holiness and happiness of mankind. I hare already stated that in the resurrection they are as the angels of God in . heaven, i%ontend that .this proves it in clear language, and to show^ my confidence in the proofs I have adduced I will allow them to go to the public as they are. However in the first part of his last speeeh, iny frienU says they that shall ba accounted worthy shall obtain the resurrection of the dead. This is i^t a scripture doctrine. Paul had a hope of bdth just and unjust, and for this hope he was called in ques- tion by i&e Pharic^es and partialists of hii dart of his last iip«e<«hf ' rorthy shall obtain the I tloctrine. Paul had a be was called in quea- My friend slated that„ inted worthy'*^ So it i ther will not be equal Ihy they will be equal My Seventeenth proof I chapter. It appears lied the doctrine of the > aJeagthened account i^Hhp,— ugh death he might : is> the devil. 3rd. li. Deat^ Doing the ler the J|nal holiness are di^ffsyed. 4tli.. 9r alt shall have been ibjected to God, Tha bat s4rae are subdued \u Cli^ke isays in his on. Ti^]|8t enemy ^ ction, so^'that if there empire, therefore the death, death is swal- lowed np in viotery. iMence the Apostle says, 0, death where *is Ihy ,ating.»' All are>tj bear the image of the heavenly. All V»ho died in Adam are ma-le alive in Christ, for none in the lesurrection state are rained out of Christ. But all who go down to the grave in Ad-.m the earthly man, shall come up and be made alive in Christ, the LorJ from beaveii. All are.to be raised iu fcmr, and gU>ry\ and in tficorrtiDficMi. In the proof texts I have advanced, there is the most perfect harmony and thougb the heavens and earthy mSy pass away, not one jot or titila of God's woni shall pasaawayunllTall be fulfilled. Uqiilihe ransomed world si all unite in a general ascrJption of praise, " And every creature whichisiaheaven,«ndon»he earth, and under the earth, and euchjia are m the sea, and all that are in them, shall be heard sayini?, blessiriK and honor, a nd glory, and power be unto him that sitleth upon the t h roue and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."-^Rev. v. 13. Thus have I gone throngh wuh Seventeen argument* out of a great number that I huve still on hand, and which I will introduce to-morrow on the negative side of the question. One of these you are aware I hud up the whole of the mornuig, and the sixteen have all been introduced this afternoon and It IS for this audience, it is for iboSe who shall rea,h could hold o^^ I wtiuld.stanci here for days, aiid fb/ weeks ad^t eating this glorious doctriere of the fulness of the blessings of the .^osnel But how .8 It with my friend, arguing against his own best. feeli.lT; arguing against the best feelings and desires of the human race, agaii; the desire of God «id uf the angels, that all men will ultimately Z gathered to^thermtl, one fold, so thatthere will be.but one foIdaiJona shepheid Here I rest my argument htK.^^-u^^,^ ^ ftiend ^111 have; the labouring oar, and will attempt t(|prov^ ,he d^ trine of endloas misery. I .hall have g, eat pleasure iffollowing him closely and irftaking the whole of his arguments out of his handf Mr. Harri8.-^1 will examine a few of the passages ^y Mend hfl« Imtrjduced. ^Isaiah xxv,.6.8-.. And in this mountfin shLSUd I of Hosts make unto a l l peopHf a feast o f^ fat thin:>s,» & , »., as alreadt iquoted. Here God will take away the .jS^^S^^lfS^ 'I j; «6 ;v j^^ U.at all mea will be finally holy .nd happy, .-MmuohM the lat^^^^^ lhe.«r«echap.er.ta,e.thatMoab.haUbei,oddendown«.^^ H.h x\ 13 ' " These all died in faith, not having received the prwnl«ee, SJ;:;;n!;eeIt^n, afer ofl, and were persu«.ed of th.r.« We ««d aslo in the 35tb Terse, that others were tortured, nol^epting del.rer- ance; that.they might obtain a better resurrection, ^'"'l^^''^'' '"^^ .< Blessed and holy is he thUt hath part in the first H»urreci on." I come now 10 the Serenteenlh argument-hut by the way, «jy fru^nd leR out hi. fourteenth argument. 1st Corinthiws xt.j My friend gate you a larae portion of that chapter as anargumept, and then went on to talk of my good Methodist brother, Dr. Adam CIark«, belieying m tlM»^eneral rMurreetion. 1 am not surprised at that ; Paul beliered m it, too. lie MtvB tfiere^iU be a resurrection of the just and of the fln,ust,^so that jomewill be raised just and others unjust in a futtJre state. Ye. ! he «a»d all Christ's enemies are to be subdued under him-he must reign until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. Wouldyow hare a «eat deal of friendship for rte if I had you down under my feet and wae Sampling upon you? Yet it is said that Jesus shall have all bis enemje. u„2 hi feet.' There is to be no more death. All will then have " passed from time into eternity. There wiH.be no more physical death; for then shall be brought to pass the saying, ««Death is shal- lowed up in Victory j?' therefore, my beloved brethreivM«e •»»««»dfast and immoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord j forasinncli as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. Heb. n, 14— ««That through death he might destroy him that had the poWer of death, that is the Devil." That is, Jesus Christ came to destroy death. He will swalloW it up in victory— that is, there will be no more oflthis natural death. In order to destroy death he had to die. In order to save men he had to enter into the grave, for he died for our offences, and he rose again for our jiiaUfioation. The resurrectionof Christ, then, is the pledge of our resurrection. St. Paul telfs us that when all shall he subdued untohim, then shall the Son also himself be subject uqto him that put all things und^r him, that God may be all in all. Revela- tions V, 13—** Every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such w are in the sea, and| all that are u| them, heard I saying, Blessing, and hotior, and glory, apd power, b6 unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever." -No doubt all the works of God praise bim ; but that doea not say that *' »U men will be finally holy and happy. If he had proved that every creature that was in the earth, and nnder the earth, and ahall ever be in the earth, was singing the song of the redeemed, he would have done sometljog ; but, so far, he has entirely failed., The proposition is pot proved, and he cannot prove it. My friend told yon very feelingly that the hearts of all men desired the that this doctrine was true, and :#^ vr r from this passage, ' Bh as the 10th vers* In down uitder him. ;eived the promisaSf of them.'* We read tt accepting deliver- Revelationsxx. 6,' sarrecilon.*' I come y, my friend left out iiy friend gate you a len went on to talk of ieting in tluB i|eneral lieved in it, too. He f the qtijust, so that litre state. Yes! he r him— he must reign Would you huye a nder my feet and was 1 have all his enemies » All will then hare " be no more physical ing, "Death is sjwal- ithrei^^>ey»: *l*^ power, be to the Lamb for erer." at that doeanot say that » had proved that every arth> and shall ever be eemed, he would have tiled., The proposition is d told you very feelingly 8 doctrine was true, and I* I V 7, ' ■ ■ ■ ^ ■ ^' - ' ■ . ■ . sf he got warm in its defence and feltlhat he would-be glad ifyon/inte alliiappy. 'Be not deceived : Cod will thoroughly purge hie ndpr, and will gather the wheat into his garner ; but the chaff he wil^ burn with ire unquenchable^ I tell yoii friends that this doctrine is not cheering . to the hearts of all good men. It casdht glMnt'on the face of. God's, children. Tbcgr knott'and feel that those who pteauh that doctrine are in errdr. I'hey know that souls are Ibft in ruin by this deluding doc- trine. rwlH adrnit that my friend has brought fdr'ward his Sixteen arguments, thelitrongest of %bich was founded upon>the woman with seven husbands, and on the desire of God. I have showii that God djd desire certain things that were not effected. He said to the Laodicean Church, I would yon were either cold or hot, but banuse ye are neither coldnor imjwiR spew thee out of my mouth. Then,friends, look at the Bible itself. Is i^ not strange that this great an|| gloriods doctrine that my friend has been ta^ng aboiit does not stand upon the face of revelation plain and clear 7/uut not astonishing that it takes the wisdom of a man of talent and skill %<>• mske it appear in any shape f And even having made a variety of efforts, the proppsitum atill is not proved, and it cannot be proved, for it is not in the Word of God. If all men were to be finally holy and happy, it would show Upon the page of inspira- tion as olrar as the sun in thefirmanent. I have brought forward argu- ments unanswerable that all will not be holy and haf^y. they must come and worship before God ; they must bend the knee, and bend the spirit before CkKl. « Verily, Verily, I say unto, thee^ except a man b6 born again he cannot enter the Kinaj^j^ of God." The conditions uponwhioh salvation is su^nded^ are iRtif in God^ andfai^h in the Lord Jesus Christ, tie that believeth hath the evidence of his* adop.^ tion. The Spirit beareth witness with our spirilj^that we are the chil- dren Of God, and if xhildien^ then heirs; heirs of Oaiund joint heii» • with Christ; if^be that we suffer with Aittt that v^wy be also glori. fied together. Before you, my friends, -lie the argument* for ihe finai holiness and happiness ^f all dHJIi. They will, by-and-byei*e scat- tered over 'the country, so that nuiny who have not heard us to>.day may be enabled to peruse them. I ttank you for attending he*Bto-d^* 1 thank you for the iMitience witn which you have waitedtotbe close 6f this ' day's debate, and the attentionil^lth which you have listened to it. 1 pray the God of all Grace that his blessing nMty accompany <»hat has been said, if in accbrdance with his will; «nd may make a suitable iinpression upon each of our hearts. I beg of you to attend >igain to- morrow, when I shall endeavor to take the lead in the argunBenli and • in the name of God I shall endeavor to bringi^forer you the truths of God With regard to the endless misery of the ungodly , and if "I fail to convince you of the clear scriptural character oi this doctrine, I wilL never p^ach another seimonon that «ubjedt.— MeantimefaraweU. /] '■M^ ■^ ■> °%T, i-- y* I It! » I iPNTffiP^40RNUIfl|| r 1 * . '' ■ V ■, ■ t ijie impoiUtit propoa^^ lell^ite, I wish to lay dowti? i^d in'ita iKscOMiioif^ In t|| ^•dnjf, lliflp 'mewing of whiwsh^ ,ltow| by^;l|]> fcoMnexion ib whicji they,* ^_,_ ^^j»ktbalw6^jjiro properly^ividflilintii) ||caCEqi|iro6|f, fertd Synonymous. Univocill word*« ' ' tw got b4d»e meahipg, and they exprew th^l raeM " &ilV3^pieper»f uftdSrMflfld^y theconnexion^in Mrhic^^ • ,5y,ionjiMU8 woi^itiay Wft^itpHed (irferently a«, waVi^^billpjfedweU- -. ihSscrSplpres t^ach the «^Ctrlt>!i,ofendlefiR misery to ^rty pgftion of the buwartfamily.'' iBTOcee^in ttm fir8t,t^^^^^ the ittture a rerottSotion «f ihl| bcJjies of allthe children of^an, and S order to prove,t»>Sii my. appeal of course shall, be to lhe,it«W and t© ^thelVitlijioqy. Thefirtrtipass^ge'of SoripliAe which I i,h.M[5'»«Hl'J<'f tairfove'the resurrection, yon yiail find in the jjrt>ph«oi^|)^aniel ^,it,^'^]y^nyorthem that .Jeep u. the .hn^iSf the. ;e|igl shall . avrtike: someto everlasting life; and some, to shame an? ^viSrlasUng j Voiitempt'V* And lo ft.ow this resurreclioh shall be at a ||criod when , ; lh© Saints shall rejoice endlessly, the Prophet goe^ oil to st^e that « They'that be" wise shall' shinfe as the .br^htness of the fiimanentj; 'ana they that «fin many to right^bTbsness, as the "'a^S 'f;^" •»* ► ever. Herff it is plainly staled, v^^^^^^^ is to ^be a re8urre|™^ *•-' • classes i-^some to «A«ine and everlasting ionteftfpt, othef i:\-- ^ ■\ il according^ St. John, '^^' , ing lif^.-^n the « Marvel not aftMMfor the b,o»r >* commg, irt t in the graves i^Plar bis voice, artd shall cor . iave .^orie good, onto the resurrection oC life, and 1, unto the resurreotjcnof damnation." Here is t • ' irgi tion. It is not 'stated that the hour is past •, but the have I fril, unto ttie resurreomin w uaiuu.nyi.. ..«.-.•' - -^ , and mark my fri^^iofi'alf that are in their gravi tion. It is not stated that the hour is past •, but thi " — ipeaking in the future tCnse— when ell that aft m (h ^^ hear his voice,,and shall cpme lorth they >hat have done good, unto the „,„rrection of life j and they tha^ haye dQftioiiofthe elhut there will be in thlklren of pat), and >eto1he Liiwandto lich I shaH introduce litophuoiert pfj ' pan iel ^of the. ebfth ahall ime anS^^rlasting be at a (leriod when gpefl^ on to state that s» of the fiimanent ; e starf 'fojigrer and %j)i,\,^~ tvxt last- itten ; are hey that done spoken fxcep- coming IS shall ye done ^oixl unto the I unto the'resnnrection , luce 18 Job xviii., 26 ' I body, yet in m'y flesh . Jv^ ifr-ffom-a- are' raued, /%Ton^o8ea thawed at llie bush, yFhon ha oalleth the Lord the dod of . '^ Abraham i|nd tjio God df^'Isaae, and the God of Jacob.*' Abraham and Isaac and Jacob liad boert deiid hundreds of yeara : Abraham about 430ycard, at the lime that Go«l appeared to Modes in the burning bush. John xi.,'23, 24 : ^'^ 3eam siiith uirto her, Thy brother shall rise ugain. Ma^rtha saith unto birn, I knowthnt he shall rise again in the rosurreo- tioii at the lost day." At the last day Lazarus was. expected to li^e. Martha was a believer in the resurreotiun of the dead. Acts iv., 1, 2 : , •' And M they spake unip the people, the priests, and the captains of 'the temple, aiid the Sndduooes, came upon them. Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurreclion from the dead." Here we have the resujrection of the dead spoken of, find this grieved the SadduceesjJ and led them to lay hands upon the disciples. Acts-xxiv., 15 : << And havo^opo towards God which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead both Of lh6 just and unjust," Both classes you see are to be raised— just as wolf as unjust. Acts xxvi., 6, 7, 8.' " And now I stand and am judged, for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers. Unto which promise our twelvefWbes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come; for which hope's sake, King Agrippa, lam accused of * the Jews. Why ahouM it be thouehtu thing incredible with you, that God ahoiild raise the-iilead ?" Acts «iui., 6 : " When Padl perceived that .. the one part were Sadducees, and th^ other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Mert and Brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am Called in question." Here a resurrection'of thjg^dead is again spoken of. Heb, vi., 2 ; " Of the doctrine of bapjisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and o^jW^ffl^d'iyp'^^'W^ lesurrection of the dea>lH»»^ 2 Tim. ii;, 18, 19: «,Who^oncernmj[lSI truth havek erteij|| saj/^S^at the resurbctiffn is past already jtead overthrow the faith of s^moi"^ He^ the r^auri rection oJ the 9uid is apokeif oftas beiqg in the fjfcre, dftd i. was ^ regarded .by the Apo^le as anerror in his^day to Wyfhat the'r|^iirrte*""^ tiortJ^ad taken place. 1 (for. xv, 2lV "For shioe by nlan came deam, by man came also tfte re/jurredionof th^ dfjad. F^ «^ id Adam all maintain that theydo'^ot; so ihafj:QU see the position of] *y opp^nttok^es the affirmative. Ho j^ o - —J -rrY»""> '»»<'° v'.o «."""<»Hr». no leaus in the ^nTestigatHjgo-day.^Irr la^orfng to show you that is a world over \ <# \ 1 /■ m ' '^ whioh a perfect Deity reigni, the beit ttmle of things that men or angele oould wieii for, or God design or deaire, or Cbriat aocompliaby can never take place, he now comes forward to maintain the worst sthte of things ' that man oaii-foar, or that dapions could desire, will ultimately transpire, •nd endure as long, as the Tyrone of the Eternal shall stand. I say the worst slate of things. Jn ^he name of Heaven ! What could possibly be worse than that OTcn one soul should fall into enolcss sin and woe, to writhe m agony, to shriek and groan in dark despair, and blaspheme the name of its creator throughV the endless cycles ol eternity. But when he oontendt^ias he will, no^ that vnt soul shall be lost, but that MiLuoMS of souls shall receive this doom, I feel authorized to declare that . ke will maintain ihe woasr state of things which it is possible tocoiiceiT«« Can it be possible that my opponent, and the believers in the mon- itrous doctrine of endless misery, have ever attempted to realize the awful, the revohing nature of that doctrine, or considered the dark, unholy imputations it casts on the character of the upholder, of the Unirerse ? Endless misery I think of it for a moment. Dajis, mouths, years will pass away; ages on ages will roll over the heads of the iiuneiB ini hell; this multiplied by every grain of sand that lines the o<;iean shore : this again multiplied by every star that gilds the raalt of hbaven: this again multiplied by every blade of grass that, beautifies our earth : and all this multiplied> twice ten thousand mil- lions of limes into itself, you would not even then begin to ^JPfaa an idea of thi doctrine of endless, unceasing, interminahje misery. It •urely cannot be that ihy opponent and his brethren have Sver endea- vored to realize the consequences of such a doctrine. My opponent will labor to prove that there are thousands of parents who have lost chil- , dren that arrived at years of disoretion, and will never meet them more. He will seek to convince you that your dearly loved oneA have gone to buQet the waves of Almighty, Infinite, wrath, and fight with incarnate fiends for ever. He wiUstrive to make children believe that tliey have beloved parents in an endless hell ; that the father and mother who i««itohed over them in their infant years, and who 'trained, them with care and . affection^ arid whom they followed to the grave, and that grave they have watered with their tears, are now shrieking in endless despair and anguish ; that they are caMing On God for even the slightest display of mercy and JVsticE, and the smallest mitigation of their toiture ; but alas! they are calling in vain. The only answer to their cries for j pity from Htm wtm made them will be, my opponent contettds, infinite ^^wvmfA hatred and v^geanpe. My opponent will, lab^r to prove that vast iranibers of parents who may be so fortunate as to /arrive in Heaven will be childless there, and that thou8and& of children there will be orphaiiB ;-^tbat when the redeemed in Heaven shall strike their -.f ! ■;. \ '!\ 1% . 1^ ... ' wisft , .:!*,■. .■; golden hSj %'^eir son raise of the Majestv of Heaven, the sweet melody of combined with sorrow at the absence of the dearest - •i ■f k ■\ . ^ . \ ti «b]Ml« of their affection, who miy be rolling in the billow* of inflnif* wrath. 0, my God I what a donlrine. What an idea to be contended^' for under the light of that glorioua •uh, now shedding \m lu»tre abound u», and whose aweet aod bleased beantfj •"'••'"g ••'•'« »" ••»• •♦'' ""•* the goal, atleat the Impaitial lo^e o^, tlio Fathor of u» all. What a work to be engaged in, in the 19lb pisi^ury, and that too by a profesaed Christian Minister of the Gospel of Christ, which bringeili glad titlinge ' of fr«a<>oy which shall be to aU/ people. ,It is my duty, and most pleaaing to my soul it is, to oontejid againal this monstroua sentiment with the iittte ability I possess./ 1 shall endeavor to show that this doctrine is dishonorable to God Jdisgraoefol to Christ,- and that it i^ opposed to Scriptme, and abho/rent to the best feelings of the human heart ;and that there is impressbd upon ileTeVy frontlet alt the marks and . featuresof a monstrous FAtsEHboo. I maintain that my Opponont ha*,T>!f^ * the irst place, the tmproftoWy^sideof the question. It requires not only a little Jogiq, but a vast amc^nt of testimony to prove that such 4 qu^a- tiOif' improbable, » weight ^f oon'vincmg evidence to make it Approach i^^lhing like to certainty. / A trifling amount of evidence will not sua- tain riiy friend in defence (/f such a monstrous dootrine. The evidence that the commubity, that hiankind have a right to demand for ihisdoc- tfine, and the arguments in support of such a sentiroeni must be drawn dearly, directly and legitimately from the source of all tru^h,the character and ittributes of (^. It will-require, njioreover, that tljflirga- nenU in defence of a doctriige of this nature, so destructivp of the best desirea of mai»kind, be so oleVr, direct and conclusive, that not a doubt ^ahall be left upon the mind of Any b||i)an b^ing. If such evidence i« not adduced, then the dootrine of endless misery must be abau^lonod for ever. My friend has quoted a number of passages to prove a resur- fection from the dead, and pnly one to prove the resurrection of the aameid^tioal body of flesh and blood. I believe in the resurrection from the dead, and I would therefore save bis tin.ej^ requesting him not to produce passages to PJ^Kg/^ai I do not deny. Mr. HARBis.-'My opfllHKTOinds me ofthe course pursued by a young lawjerintbecityof^^ who was employed toconduotacase. Before^fi^ipade bia appearance in court he wrote 6ut his speech, and when about half through delivering it the Judge requested him to atop ae, he was not awaking to the pwnt.but the gentleman replied" Ihave writ- ten my ap/eoh and am dete Ak»ed todeliver it."! will now continue the J|»roof ,of/Ae .resurrection froffl||N dead. When that point is eptablishod I wilL^ve evidence aaliigh A* heaven, as deej^^ hell, ari^aa^rong as tlte word of eternal truth, 'w|ich is built on an immoveabl^^ais, t tlieie will-be in t|ieufuturevvbrld, 'persons that will sufTe fi^jgg ejis sry. I willow rpturiito Corip|hiiina. The 23rd v^rse says, !P|vM|^ in b l a cwii order, Christ the P rB tjf ria ta^ afterward they that arie P pat^ ^ .?■■• >•*, >. m at bis coming. Thus we sei ist rose from the djad, flild^s^ #. ; With the «,„eid,„^4,^^ »'« had whon h, dj|iMi^^ M» diaoiplM the wooiul« in hi. h.n.l. .„ i • f.^ I"' """"** Thom«/w»chhill,£i,vh" "7""^" '"*^ "• hi.«,de. H««.id lo • For .inco by ^arf3E?„ . ^''""* **" '*"• «"»•'"•'»• "^ "-m ih.. -.epf . lire. But l^I:*^;" '"• "7" "" '" *^»"«' -h-ll .U be made fine fir.riSre.1^1 2?^^ °^ "^ ' ""* *''" •^""^ '" Christ .hall to God, even le^iX^ltl t t'r.V'"'^-'' "P «'- kingd J »" authority a„d 'T Fo.^! . ' *""" P"' *'°'^" »" "'••^' «««» one^lea are to te put „.,: 3^^ L^d^t ^T^Z'"' ^ quently it xvill bo, before the eT«rla-kitu **«"««>y«'. eoiwe- of another parage of Scripture to prove St iJ?J^ T" •.moUKJvwhiohwiJI takeplaoe. I^l^i'tt ™'^'!f •«» of th« the.on.yf God; a„d i, doth no. y tilt J*?^"'?**^'' «*« *^ knf,wt>.„. ...i.„„ .^ . .. """ y"» flP*' what we nhall be : but wa V. # knowthat whon ho .hall appear weSir.' w''' "•""' **' »>"» ^» »>-a«hei..» HerethesaEa'o^^'i"^:.''™' f'-we .hal. .ee 2Ir-Fo7ourco„»,«a,i«nisi„heave„ «Jt ^f"' ^"- "'' ^' Saviour, the Lor^lW. Chri«t. l^o'.S^ ' ''"JT*^ '""'l* « maybe fatbioned like urtto hi^^^f^f^ our ^le bod^fe working wh^ty he is able r.uMufe' ^' ^"""W^*^ ^en the bodie^f .he sain^: ^ W™S"l;3ii^ then^Ohansed after being rai«ed and m-^L rr T»^¥'-«"3 would be arje^v cmatioh. I, mul hL . J ^^ -^me body; Identical bopif a re.um.ction Tl ^ '"""'^f °" of th^ «.n,e r..., 23. NotVly they, but ouiboLT^JT k J^ '""'•^''"- ««"• «h« Spirit, even we .^rselvrTr^rJmiin ^'*'^^^''-^""'''<»' .dopUon,-,o «.V, the redemp.4":^"^:'^!"^ TV"""'^^^ '"' *^« -««/y,~The Mme body df courT iTv^' ^'"^ ^^' ^ords-Our the redehiiSfen of our body, l Cor « 7J ? . ^® '"^^P''<'"' •o*'''** l^t^Lord, and will al^ mi^^jf'u^ w ^ ?" '"''' ^^ -'^ he rBsnrrection of Chriat i. .poken ^f «• ^li" ^*'"- "««» W which he .u/Tered and died T». a "'f '^^ *"» »»>« «™«' ^ the matter, and .ay., and w^U .,,?«> ^'' ^' °" •» »«««>» • y will ,1,0 rune qp o uUKriy ^bia ow«— % archdo ' - BOtRff 7^ don n M not «hi ""i; reijtipn pointo< •greeu "2. ablefii prepsr BOnton< thme tl idolg n liimsdt the can never f aanie pi -a ] there e througl do not are led region < world, "* no pier fathers they W a - this regi m ■♦fj^-^mtii^. i^ / .vi* power Sn.1 Cor., it., M: " lfn«wlrt„ Aal he who rnf«o,l «p ,l.o I^r.l f J«BUi. Hhall r|«, up u««I«, by Jo,u., and »hall pr«.u„i u. with ,.,„/» I have now p.« throuah a yari«ly of ya^„,^„^ „f s..riplur., thai point •ul ai. plainly «• lan^uoKc con p„i,,t oul, U.,u thoro wiU be n re«ut* . lecLon from tho dead of U.« bcHlio. of all nu-n ;-a rc.,A,io„ of iho JU»I aii.1 unju*l;-a rMurrecU«n of tho evil and th« ^oinC I will now quolB but ono mor|pa.,age on the rosuiruction part of tlio del.dlo - fll**";;? '..".\*? "'" «"'" "P "'" ''""'^ *^'"'' "'"'^' in i»; and death and hell del.rerod up tho dead which wore in thom ; and thoy were judged, erory man «coonlin« to their work,. An.l .loath and hell were cant .„to tho lako of fire." ^ Horo, Ihon, we are told there I, l"n .^wT^fll"" "'"" """ •"" •" ""» •*«»• ""«' «'o>,.lorful to n^flecl that .homho have bo^ bu^ed In ,he great wat.-r.. where w ^- f .'m '^*"" ''"'""*''' ^'y «"»•''" J««'o'"P«--l in tho waterio he jjroamen, shall ,ot be raided by the mighty power of G.«l and shall Wand .»J|,o bar of (]or tte^j^,?'?^ ""i"' ^"^ smile. unj:;'a°:,a: tB^on ^mT^ "to'nal n^wlIfriiOoaven. which is to suooeed t&u region. This place we call the bosom of ffl)raham. # ■t '■I "I'm. M. „#'■ B^: *•!. ilat Mtii tlM v^iirt. tiMqr fN^raRftAfyfcrMU th« l«Ali«»d by Um »iiK«la allotUd fur itunialiinont, no loiiK«r goiiiK with • %ood win, but mm pritoiKti-* roproMh thmn, antl thrMt«n th«in with th«ir t«rribU look*, M<1 to thriMt tiicm ttill downWKrd." Mr. liAVSLL,—My oppunant hu taken tha pMilion that word* ire •ither univocai, «quivooal, or •ynonymous :— Vary trua { ha adinita thia ruto. It it a grand admiMion } and I Teal confident that bofure this ..day'a debate ia oloaed, the Kontluman, if he ia aniioua to luccead in proving the doctrine of iMidlosa miMiry, will regret having mafia this the rgla of hi* oourne in thia diuuMion. Equivnpal wnrda will be tha word* that will trouble my friend. lie uya he will commence by proving tha resurreetion of tlio iUba identical body, and then he quoleM Daniel xii. 3; but in the quotation of thia veria he has been guilty of a trick that is dinhonourable. It ia dishonoiirable in any Christian minister to handle the Word of (tod deceitfully. He takes the pasaage of Scripture from ilB/:onn«xion. Look at it. Look at tha . reason of the oonjunction and hare. Read the 11th chapter, and it will h«lp to explain the moaning of the pusnai^e he has quoted. ' It will tell you that it yran to bo at a time of great trouble, referred to in the 24lb and 'i5th chapterM of Matthew ; the' destruction of the Jewish Temple ; the abrogation of the old dispensation, and the establishment of a now one : « And at thtit time »hall Michael stand up, tha great Prinoe which Ntandoth fur the children of thy people } and there shall be a lime n} trouble nuch a$ never wat tinee there vxu a nation even to that same time ; and at that time shall thy people be delivered, every one that ehaUbe found written in the. book. And many of them that ■leap in the dust of the earth shall awake, aoihe to everlasting life, and some to shame and everla» 18 very geneialjy believed, refers directly to NnpoleoniPo««parte. He shalltome lohisendaijd noneshall help him. Napoleon came to his end m 1821, if 1 mistake not. and he was then in solitude with hone to help him. At that time, says the prophet, shall Michael stand up, the great pnnce whioh standtith for the children of thy people, and tj^en shill be a time of trouble 'aiich as nev^ was since there was a nation, even r to that same time, an/f at that tinj>thy people shall be delivered, every one thatshall be found wriiien flit the book. Then the prophet goes on to say, " some shall awake to everlasting life, and someto shame andvever- lastinjr contempt, and they that be wixe shall shin^as the brightness of , the firmaneiit, and they that turn many to rightegi^Ane«a ^s the stars for ever and ever." The Wea is paf lied not only to th« resurrection of the immorlal slate, but totwp classes of men that ^ha!l rise, some to evedast- ing lifey.and'Some to shame and.everlasting cdnlefl{pt. I do say that llus refers directly to thojesurrection ofthe libily and to the ImmortajLstate Which shall commence after the resujMtftqn of that body— soJiJ to everlnsting fife, and some to shame an5^ everlasting contempt. My friend wisnes to refur this to the overthrow-pf the Jews, an event which took place in the year 70of the^Christian era. But this refers to a re- ^suirecdon to everlasting life, and to everlasting *haq,e'ar.d contempt and not to the destruction of the Jewish poiity. But my fMeml wishes . 40 dra>^ away„yoqr minds from this to the doctrine of endless punish- . ment which I shall attend to in it? proper time, and by the grat^e of th« » Godlservel sh*JI do. it; and be/ore the stin which now nWnes so' resplendentlrabove us hathfound a lodg.ng place behind tl/v^stera- lulls, my efforts to prove the do(rtrine of endless misery to a part of the Wrt. race, will tell on every mind and on eveiy conscience that wiir3t*„.L to what I shall say. My friend went on to say that'l ■ quoted passagesof scripture, but did'aot attend t^,theirconnexion. I have commented on every passage brought forward by me since the discus- 8*on commenced, if I mistake not. W^ come again to Job xix., 24 : KM T °l! f^' - ^ "^ ?^'"* destroy this body yet in my flesh shall I see God. My friend declared that Job kne^V, little or nothin-^ , ^uta;iut«re«8tate. But he said.. more; he said Job'had iBfi^rence t^ the things thitt transpired in his own day. But if-he ha<^ *uot^ the passage I adduced, • "S i> JobV fa ing, he trivnH b shall no itself, very thi up, am boily tf change boriy, a things I would" body w and wli JH. r. ^4 f^^ 77 n J* % l'^^^^- is/. ' ■ ■ ( Job's faith took hold upon the fviture,,nn(l though shiking uiuler suffoT- , ing, he horla lively faith in rtSfcfenSiB to" ihe reBurreclion. Here my fViend bring? some passageii from 1 CoK 15, to show that th^saitne body shall not be raised— " If ismiseda Spiritual body ;" <*it,*' the vcryth|ng itself. " ft is sown a natural bmly, it isrnisud a spiritual body," The very thing il self that is sown is raised. The thing put down is brought up, and this being the case we have proved the fact that the same bo ,.;■- / Vf:"-. ; five not (el) you who these enemies are. He will not come out plainly ^nd say. who they are. But he must reign till his enemies are put under his feet^ and when till things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also liimself be subject - unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all iii all, Jeaus Eimself mid. All power is gnren unto me in heaven and in earths And !o I am with you always even unto the end of the world ; — and to beJieve^a finite being capable of all power in heaven and in earth would be a far greater difficulty than to believe that Jesus Christ is the true and eternal God. My; friend has said that if I prove punishment after death, and after the resurrection, I shall ha«ire done something to prove my position. I shall prove punishment;' In a future state, I shall prove it in eternity, and I shall prove that that punishment shall be endless, and enduring as the God who created man iq his own image and likeness. Mrs, Lavcll. — I once knew an old gentleihan, a Methodist, a good man and an honor to the denomination, who said to me, « I must confers, Mr. Lavell, if your doctriAeis not true, I feel as if it ought to be,"-— and it is just the way with 'every goodrhearted individual that lives. They feel if it is not true, it ought to be. Tliis same person ;mAde this remark — after a cettain indiyic^ual, a Methodist Mmister not of his denomination, not of thrfEpiscopal Methodists, had lectured against Universalism— he remafM^ If he only deliver another course of • kctiires here against this doctrine, he will make more Universalists than Mr. Lavell would make were he to preach here ten years. And allow me here to say to my friend Mr. Harris, for it is put down in black and white, I venture to say that his speeches will make moi* Universalists than if he had beeji labonring to. preach the doctrine. Now, my friends, I wish you to read them calmly and without prejudice. It a one of the greatest, the most fortunate of circumstances that ever happened to us that we nianaged to obtain an efficient Reporter. My friend said that the iast jmrtaf ihfc 11th chapter of Daniel referred to Napoleon. Suppose it does, what-of it? My friend seems grearly at a Iws for some proof of the premises. He said by tjie Grace of his God, he would do so and" so,— "By the Gradeof my Godj— oftheGodlserve i will prove the dofctfine of endless misery. ''. There is npt a dbubt that by ihe GJaceof the God he serves, who is worse th^n an incarnate f^evil, he will prove the doctrine of endless misery ;— fit work indeed .for suCha cmiple. Pqt by the God whom I sehre-^by th^ God that ^e read of m the Bible— by the God that is the author of. the Siin that ttow eiiines unpn us in all his" lustre and shines up6n all alike-^by the jEWd whose impartiality is manifested throughout all the natural liforld, '« he will most 8igna1J;j^ fail.' After my friepd had /Uttered these wonderfiil V 'exj^essipni which he tfeiifks}l auppttee are pr^y coiielusive testimony he says yes I O yea [ that tells.— It Was a winder W© did not all rise ■'^ *¥ e^e^y seed itii own body." Now you know that Pttul statesjpmediately after OS an illustration, " AH flesh is not the same flesli'; bufthere is one kmd-| of flesli of ften, another flesh of beasts, another offisjies, and another o^ birds." Mark, too, they ^re all glorious : /• There isone glory of the sun^ and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for one star difiereth from another in glory." Now mark the/act that Paul gives — « so also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption it is raised iniNcoBRUPnoM; itis sown in dishonour, it Wisei^ in glory ; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in i-owiiR; it isjfowtt a natural body, it w raised a.8PiluTUAL body:" hence, it is pot the Vme idomical body Ihafis-raised at the resurrection. I call the geijtleman's attention to the two questions of Paul. How are the dead raised up? With what body do they come ? and if he sticks to this II will make a Univ.er8alist of him. !The passage he quoted which speaks of;the Saviour,-" Who ahallchahiebor vile body," shows Very evidently that if he chaii|e3 ^ <^^ it, it is not the same b while the one to immortal life is through the .^werof God, a«*im!tonditional, My friend says I dare not tell who these enerftiesa^tliat are mentioned in 1 Cor. xy.; I dare-they are, ■ Death, Siii, Ignorance and Error,-all that is opposed to the mild and peaceful reign of Jesus (fhrist. De^th is To UtheUut e^em 5 and ^, when all an. i^iibdu^d then shall Christ hiraself Wubject ^nto ^God ihalGoAm^jleaUifiaiL Does my frien* mean iftat there sh^l be soine of mankind upon whose necks our Sa«ipur, shall stan^^^^^^ feet, and shaU triple them in the dust, and ^ft^f shall tdike place at the resurreetion •f the dead ? If he does, I4e«!»aHd proof of it. Let ' him prove.it trom that chapter which gives the jrfost elaborate descrip- tion of the resurrection of the dead in the whole Biblp. l;«th'*P7« that part of mankind will be enemieslo Christ forever. He said I dare .1* m -^^ h \- ■:.J^ x. •»r;#' I' ' ' ? "r \^^ "* •* """"'*" "»«"»'«"«<1 '■" that connexion-I hWo •tated^jM, they are. But my friend said this i„ onler to thnw dust in - «n« 7« of the audience. It was hia duty to prove that men wifl be ««ef^.e«, but It .8 all barefaced assertion on Tiia part. Hesaid Christ ha, allpower .n heaven and in earth. So he has : and for this very reason . I believe he will ^Bucceed. If Christ obtained the power from some «emMnfinitebe,hg,thenthedevilmi«ht go off with the palm of victory, having robbed the Saviour of nine-tenths of the human family, and . take them to howl with. grim devils to all eternity. But as the Saviour receives all power froin God, an infinitely perfect being, we are bound to beheyo that he will Hucceed in his mission.-^we are bound ^ to beheve that the devil 6„d oil his works will be destroyed. I repeat then, that if my friend does prove pimishmerit after death, he falls far . 8hortof proving the affirmative of the question? Do the Scriptuivs teach the doctrine of ENDI.KS8 punishment ? ; Mr. HARHt«.-The first m^ I will notice is the remark of thi» ' good Methodist. He was gd^d in my friend's, estimation for saying if . all men are not saved, they ou»lit to be. 'His goodness then consisted mlus having an opinion different' from what is taught in revelation, rh^n he referred to the preaching of a certain Methodist makin* Universalists, I did not know but it was my epponpni's brother thai was making so many. Mr. LAVB|.L.-Modera«orr-Jt rise to a point of onler. He has mentioned my brother who is a Methodist Minister, and has attempted - to cast a Blur upon- hun. What has this to do ^ith the question ? V ,...■■ <• Mr. HAftn,s.-Well I will say this good man, this Methodist, Uiought that If the preacher oontinped to lecture aqainst Uhiver- • aalism, he would make a groat many Universalists. Then my friend - turned round to me and said what a most fortunate thing ,t was ' ' for lum that we obtained an efficient Reporter, so that all this discussion migh; be published to the world, ad .if would bring men from ' Methoai^ra to Universalism, thus saying that I encoumged Univer-- Mr. .Eavell.-:! rise t6 a ppint pf order. I (fid not say that Mr ' '- Harris encouraged Universarisra; but that his expressions were? oaU ' culated to do so. " " " , «v ««* . ' ' ■' ,.■ " • ' " ^ Mr. Harris—I do not viah to be thus iritfermpted, and I trust the ° Moderat05:will give me my fiill time« '"■ ' - < " ~ ,.' The MoDERATrfu, requested that, the ' diecdfesiotl niight nrocefed w.t}jout ttny pfcrs,.n«l ftllusiona whatever^ as Shortly vrbuW end to. Cf^nto iinlmppy Mings. ' ] . .^ a \\ 'O'*' . v ■n ' #■ % ■were Qted mise said was cam( I sai auth muc Mlcl myi sinoi peoi boot awa conti noti cam bod] to ti dish for, — th The I as upoi saiti bod aha a8\] app rest plis ^. his the con* thai com My aAd thin iai - in , '^ .* t, r- • 1 " ■ ■ V • .. ( • -" ,1 ''' »- "- Of/' tv . " ?»' n * /< »f V ■ " ' » iK- ., ■ (':,■' k f** t / '-■ V m Mr. LAtkll Mid he woald waive the ijuMlion a^the remark ■ ^ere all noted dowo« ' i. Mr. Harhii lesumed,— My friend referred to the expression I used,— My God whonr I serve, by his grace I would prove endless misery before the son 'fivcA down. This being ^ the case, my friend said "the God whom 1 serve was worse than an incamatft plish at Jerusalem. My friend directed your.altention to John v., 28, 29. He says this refers to a conditional resurrection.^ ^ut 1 think h is evident that the condition refers nW to the restiirection, but ,tff the future bli«B or misery oif the persons Wused,— according to their^ conduct here,— ^ey that have donegood,tothereBurreotipnof life ; th^ thai haVe done evil, to the resurrection of daQUiatieil^ They shall all come forth, but then- future state depends tq^iin-lheir Jrtreseiit coAdiiot. My frien^ teferi^ to sin be(ng destroyed, to sin and i^norancig And enor Vd everything thj^t(>p|k)sesChriilt being des^j^yed. Thia is the^verj^ thiflg. Anid What if th0 geii|l^man slTail ptt>ve punisliiiieiit in a fi^orfii', . •■.<>■■ ■!/'^ , ■ " ..'■',,,■ '» 1>" ■' ".,, '■ ■ ^ ,•'„,:'.•■ .■;■*■ (I ^i..' ^y ,. '■' ' ' „ ■• v \i ?/ *--■•,, , -." ■*' ■■■■ V,*> - ^ . ,1 " ' "; ," . ir,.' >:,'^'r «. .!.■, ':"■■■■ f > •'; 'j "■■M W' ■ i* I •oold 'v^rM? najB h: In tha tuun« of oommoQaenM, ^Ikt will tx^ punished^ there be no Ant We wwit to go right along. It is now •dmitll|lfctthe»» will be * resurrection. He admitted that th'at jKueage n^l)aniel irefiBn to Uie reearreetion fiom the detei,~he ij -— J- otherWtBoj and than that the Tene preoediog lefen. BkxiaparW, ivho fof^ht againat the British on the field of nd was afterward carried captive, and died in exile. I ^ I done with the resjiiractioni it is sustained, and cannot 'bi »^«^^ In »^« Mxt place I shall proceed to^ve ^Judgment •»d th^a|i4adgment will take place after the resurrection. Acts XTii., aiT " He hath appointed a day in the which he shall judge the « world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained ; vhereoJT he hath given, assurance unto all »»«% in.thal he hath raised him from ^, the dead." That judgment, we see, will take place at a particular time appointed. Now the evidence of a future judgment, in th« opinion of Paul, depended upon the resurrection of Christ, and here he itates positively and in pWn terms that God hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised Christ from the dead. That this cannot lefer to the destruction of Jerusalem is evident. Jhe Apostle Paul * Wfw, addressing the p^oaopbio Greeks at Athens, and this is an evidence that jjlie passage hi|d nothing to do with Jerusalem or the lewjshSute. And to show what wdrld is to be judged, Paul says He hath commanded all rnen everywhere to tepent. It is the worli « eveiyVrl^ere,"— the entire uiufersal world, all men everywhere,— t, Because he bath Appointed a (day in which he will judge the World in Eighteousfiesi by that man whom he hath ordained ;*«>A«reo/' ha hath given asaurfunice> oato all f»efi, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 2nd Peter^iu, ft «i^ Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be pttpished,"-Haot tfiat he laif^wgi Jiow to reserve the w^mt that wtfmiakeA'} but he reserves tiie itti)i|st unto the day of jodgmant to ba pOnished. Then ttey are ti^br i^ished after the day of judgment. ! solemn fact, that whiBn fi*^ ^11 judge the world m righteounass. he has reserved thaudfjust to 1m puniahedin that day Johnxii.,48: «He thit lej^&tath me«,and feceivfth not my words* hath one that jodgeth him : the words that I Imve spoken, the same .^•ball judge him in the last day." Now we arO placing the judgment in tbe proper pliice; after the MMtnneetion. All men shaU be brought before tHe eyas of a e«- #■ "v" ' >::. „r - ()• ; -'"''::■-■' ''."\''': ft wolildbemoteUaeribittTMtof 0*^ Oiiii for thrt city that heard the Sariour^t prewhing, and yetdenouuced bia miracle, and remained impenitent,-more tolerable, more way at the day of judgment than lor that city. 0, Fearful Day ! Day of Judgment I Day of wonders ! In Rerelatious vi. , \7, it i. said :« The great day ot hia wrath is come, and who ahall be able to stand." 0! that day of wrath !-that great day, that day of wiith l ■ •■: ;■ :i^ ■ . C ■ [,^- ' Mr. LAfsit.— My opponent wijl be continually misrepresehling me. He aaid that I admitted the l^st verse of the 11th chapter of Daniel referred to Napoleon, fadmit no such thing ; but I denied it, ^ and demanded j»foo/ that it refers to Napoleon. My opponent has undertaken to prove the resurrection from the dead, of all men, and haattus laboured to prove wh»t ftobody denies.' But he stated also that I undertook to prove this. No Sirs! I am not bound to prove : anything here to^ay. I am not called upon to prove anythiug. Persons, acquaintfcd with the rules of debate will knowthat I haVe the negtrfiw and ray oppon«?nt the affirinaiivt in this day's discussion. He attempted to erect the "building, and H is my duty to show that his matona! w not sufficient to dolt. 'My opponent stated that 1st Got. 15 taught usol in a spiritual sense, and all confined to tjiis life. « I will ppek your graves, andcause you to come up out of yoi(ir graves, and bring youinto »>w land of Israel. And ye . shall know that I am the Lord, whdn I »«(« opw»d your graves, my " people, and brought you up oat of your Staves. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live; and I shsffl place you in your own land." This is sufficient to show that it do(Bs n^foHoir that the word • « graves" has any refierence to the rMimrectionyirte whatever. Dr. * Lightfbot a celebrated divine of tl^s Church of ipngland remarks on John v»^ „ *- fc.- A m Xr II «^i t-'' •♦tfc«i« wof* wiiki alM U tppllod to a »»!, f .. ->■: ttM7 iImII 90UUL th«y that itioo of li ' . toth« „...., ° "S^ wto tli« iwurrMtion cf I^ed one too, .nd «lmitted to be so,-.l»o Xieter in th/doctiLl of endles. m.«ry^not . Univemlist. My find «ud 1 1., «l™i.,«,' ^o^Z YH ** "k^^" "' Daniel/^ierred to the im^ortS the labourmg oar tiwlay, hu. abortion f good for nothing, m\eu h. prove .t. My fnend ha. quoted wve^l pa«age. to prove a final U» the which he w.n judge the worJcl^ «^/ I „k my fr^nd what hi ' ^;^Vai^''ir''^:"'''yp^ ifh/s.y.it:i^ penod of 04 hours, I demand pmof i it. If he believe, that itm^ wage, adi.pen«non, I admit it, ani thi. willagree with the great truth "* .'" 5! r"''TJ' ''"* «>« J Vent commenced is'cen.uriep 4UM until Christ h^sOone re.gning^nd ruling over mankind, and , -Jail deliver up the kingdom to God that hem.; be dl in .11. {fZj ... fo«d a""7»thattojudge means to gather all mmkindtogethe^ . ftf It. "The Lord knoweth how to reserve the unjust unto the davof Hgmentto be punished." Does my friend r«e.L to«y hit th'e^ w,ll be a generd judgment after all upon the earth have died^ If aT idetti^d proof. Jle knows as well as I do, that plain static ImL"''^ *''!::* '"'«'"''"^ of thisworld-notwilltt etermty." Then again, "The sameshalljudgehim in the-i^rt Z » M^it meansaday for fyml judgment, then I demand proof of it ^^/u. what isrequired here to^ay. Mete as«,rtio.s wTn^do fa reference to Matthew v . ,5 : I shll present ^ the ovyencTof a " ^ believer m the doctrine of endless misery, y^ c^^ToZ^.^ oommenUtor, Dr. Hammond, a man who«« V^ZilT^ t^*" " In reWl to the wotd, it shLr>l T ^ ""*^^"" ^^' GomorS! Dr. H^^^^^'J^I"^ """ *^"'"*^ ^ ^- ^ eity '^y^^^nrAC^:^^:!'^^^^ -* «^» "P- ««t siore tolerable tlun t^^.'"^««'»«» of Sodom shaU ap^Mr to hi.*% bem That the day ^^djJawT C^^Sro,^"-^^ ^"'^ '^'•l ^^I ^ ..piyani from wU. h^Z.J^r.Tf Z'l'^^^^* . *»> *»»,?• undS - with verMs ii, u of the ««,« dhajli^^'^^ * *^'**^ »*'• ^ oonipw«d "'.«*«S»««^ '^ f ^::r- OillMrt Wakefield, who puUiahed a tniulatibo of the Natr' Testament in 1890, sayt of thU passage : *A11 that oar SaTtonr Intends to'uy !■» that wh«a th« ttmpond^ falamitiM of that nUoo Qome upon it, thny will b« moroseVore than eren^ thoM of Sodom ana Oonorrah. ^e thii |>hrMe, f!m|>loy«4 in nreoiMlv Uia MUM msaning by the LXX in Proverb* «, 84. Our HaTiour, I •pprebend, had JaruMlein prineipally in view in this deolaratioo." >. Dr. Clarke again, by the Way, thus comments on this passage t "Inths dav of |adgfti«nt, or puniehmsnt: Perhspa not meaning tha day of general judgment, nor the day of the deatruotlon of the Jewieh state by the Romans; bil^t a* day in which Qod shuulil lond nuniithment on thai partioular eity, or on that person, for their oriinos. Ho th«r day of Judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah, was the time in which 'tlie Lord , destroyed them by firs and brimstone, from the Lord out of lleaven," I shall only trouble you with another quotation. One frohl Wetqtein, a celebrated critic, who published a commentary on the New Testament in 2 vols., folio, at Amsterdam in 1761. He says on . this verse:— ;/•. ■ ■■,• '.y/ tj, \ "WhoHoevcr nhsll witn'cM the calan'iities which the eontmniioioiiB Jews • shall endure on account of their rej«;«tion of the Ooapel, shalt Judge them to have suffered more severely tliaa the inhabitants of Bodom, and the punishment of tho latter to have been more mild, when compared with these., -v ;■./■- . Thus have I given you the opinions of men who stand high among* those who believe in the doctrine of endless misery. It is not Universalist testimony at all, but from gentlemen of his own side of the question. I sometimes think too that jninisters of various denomi- ations know the meaning of such passages ; but the influence of their party compels them to appear ignorant of tliem. i,,- , •. Mr; Harris.— The first thmg to which I refer," is the denial by my friend that the passage in Daniel referred to Napoleon Bona- parte. The remarks he made were these, "Whether it refers to Napoleon Bonaparte or not, it makes no diflerence." I consider this- an admission. I say it does inake a good difference, as it shows the circumstances referred to did not take place ^t tha Destruction of Jerusalem. I refer the first verse of the twelfth chapter to the future state, to the resurrection which takes plaj the end of time. " At that time shall Michael ^tand up, and* shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a natTi . ■- / even to that same time : arid that time the people shall be deliverer!,' every one that sha]^ he foimd written in the book. And many of therif that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everiastin^L life and some to everlasting contempt.'* Then I quoted on this poii^ the words, ReV. xx., 15 : " Every one whose name was not found ■wrililen in the Ixiok of life was cast into the lake pf fire." TWS"next text of Scripture referred to was John v., 28>29. I stated that the ^, I'M a; V «i»^.£^i&«& 4- :\ # t#'enty>^fth ▼•«» refemd to ■piritual feaarrectiV - «▼"•» 81> my friend asked if the word "day" was to be understood oa /* : V ,' . meaning a period of twenty-four hours, or whether I would not confess 1 " that it referred to an age or dispensation. I stated that it refers to tht last day, when all the transactions of men will be brought before the All-Searching eye of a Holy God ; and in order to p'iove this position, I quoted the words, "The same shall judge hitn ai^the taat day.'f ' • There is to be a judgment in future, and we are plainl||jbld that, "A • day is appointed inihe which God shall judge the world in righteous- ness by that man Whom he hath ordained." But my friend wished me . to prove a judgment after the resurrection, and be would yield the • . point.^ This I will do, and then I expect him upon the honor of a mah . to renounce Universalism entirely. Hev.x3t.,I2, IS: "Andltewthe dead, small and great, stshd before God : and the books were opened* and another book was opened, which is the book of life ; and the dead . vrere judged out of those things which were written in the books, ^ ^cording to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the ^eod which were in them : end ihey were judged every man according to their works." Then a* - regards the second death, " Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." If thereiaa spark of honour : andhonesty in iny friend, he will now ge|np and tell the congregation that he will yield the point, and will forever yield it. I will pause to see if there is any honor left.— No !_I still pause for a reply. None.^ Now my friends, you observe this passage tells the fact, and. . .tells It as it is. The Evangelist says, "I saw the dead/small and great, stand before God. In ^he Seventh verse he tells ■ us* «' The heavens and the eartb had flad away from the presence of him that «at -V ..A f --frntrntrnf' that 'and Ood, Mid. hear o(h» re is d to it of that It it wrere IV., khaU iod'a itual ling \cta (1 as fOBSl th9 the ion, "A . lUH- me the nah the Bd « Bad iks, ere m: as the , i)ur ion to nd' nd he lat :m '■^,.- .•/. Thram, and thew wia'^ plaee for them Then the booka were opened. "There * heavena and earth, and now the dead, amall and tioil : and th#y are to be judged every man acconling t; 0, what a sulnnn truth t O, what a great truth! and it of tho children of men that are here present. My friend forward a great number of commentalora, but he aeemed to that the propoaition waa, « Do the Serij^uru teach tfee dcnrtrine of endleu miaery." I will only aay in reply to the great accumu- • lation of wiidom that he aet before na, « If ye receive the witnert of men the witneaa of Ged ia greater, and I would sooner have a— "thus saith the Lord" to eirtablish any point, than all that, may be written by men upon the subject. I am not afraid of such a ■■ and ' who shall bo able to stand." Whether thatday be a period of twrenty- four hours is of no moment. It will be the last day in;j(imo. JRom. ii, 16.— "The day when God shall judge the seci^sijof men by Jesua Christ, according tomy gospeU - : ' V t . ? ^v ' - . " ■■ ' ■'■•■: '■■■■/■ » ".' '*.■'■■' . 'i' ' ■ •*. ■.•<•' ^' ,■ ■ ' "* Mr. LfVELL^— My opponent will ag^n misrepresent ine in relar tion to Napoleon. He seema to work hard to get Napolepn 10^)0 the individual referred to. My opponent represented me in his Jdat speech :. as stating that tt wkule no rfij^creacc whether it refers to Napoleon or not. I said no such thing. What! said was, tfaat I denied t^tk refers to Napoleon, and demanded proof, and it has not, been fa^rth- «omiJH|^e seems to have a peculiar iiking for going all oyer thelScrip- tures and confounding passages. He qiAotea a passage from one bookf reads it, and then declaims upon it a little, and then lelk you that U ,*3*- c ' . ' • . .*" ■ ;' , • ' ' ' ■■■ ■ \' * ■.,■•■ » >. • ..;,,' ' ■ / ^ ■ ■ . f' ■■••■ . \.- ::■§>:■ '\ . ' ■ , ^ ■ ,*■ '' *i • ■ 1 '■'■ ... ■ **■ ' ' ■ '.■'•■ 4 _'■'.-■ ■ . ' . , ' ■ J ■ ' ' ' • ' ■'.,.' ' " ■ ',■■■-■ • *' ' ' ' ■' ■ '^ ' " ■- . .' ■■'.'■. ' ' i' ■ ■ -' /■--'■♦ .. ^ ,1;,- ;.::,'; ■ . ' . • * ' \' . ' . » ■ * ■ . ' - * '' ■' • 4% . ■ ■■'#:''' # 1 . » t ■• * , f ' ■ » ■ , ■ V . .•" " r ,' ■. • '' ■. " 4 • , ■ - ■ ' . / 4 • '.♦-'. . ■ * 1 ■ ■■1 ■ ^^^^ #■• ■ ^^^1 ■ ^^^^^ ► ■ *, * ' ■ ^^^1 ■ ^^^^^ ■ liHi ■ ^^^^^^^^P y i 1 ■ . -•'■■■ ■■■"■*. '■•.-■ • -■.■■■•■. - * ■ • '* . • ■ ^ . * 1 • * ' ■ ■'■•■-■ ■■'";. "k-. . •• % 1^ • ■ "'.■ '\ • •/ • bi*), ■ . \ • ^t / «•*, ■ ■* ■ " ■- , .1 ■ » ■.'■■' f ■ ■ ■■ ■■ , ■ 1 * V, jt ' ■ ■ ' . f , - ■ • ■ . ■ « • * ' ■' •'.'', 1 • • > • u ■ f'-i;-- ;;'■:■• ■;;:-^ / y ■■\. • ■ .-■■*- \ 1 ';. ' , 1 . / • ■ « - '■■■■. ,■ ■■'■*■■'•. . , » \, 4 ;; r- . ■' * * ~ ) • ■• "■■•^ ■■■■^•-:;.:.v^-';' * • '. .■ ..-■";" / • ' m " ■ " \ ■■-''.■'■.' \ ' , '^^ ■'■ ':': ■' V /^- '■■■■ \ ' ' ■ • ft ^ * ; "J" , \ ■• " V ■ r dwSS&U MKRoeonr mtoumm vm awn (ANSI ond SO TfST CHAUt No. 2) \ 1.0 1.1 IM Ut u IS 2.2 140 I.S L25 11.4 U41 1.6 ^ /APPLIED IIS/HC3E he 1«M Eoti Moin Siratt mehMtar, Nw York I4«09 USA P1«) )-Fa 7 meaovfloand I «id claim that he haa made out hlTDSt^ / . ?* '*'* '"«''**'•' • cou«« of procedure. ImIiIi„Z ' ^J*^. «'"•»* wonderful Ukeapa-^eof Scriplu^rS:^ 7:^^'^ "^^^^ «der it there in it* coLxion, the Ue when t L T' ""•' '""'- petBon to whom \x refers, and Z nlT J . "* 'J^''*"' ""^ 'he addressed. 5utnioL?l^ *^^" ^ ^ •»«'eagreat^2X:;*^'«i P««ue this oour«,. l,^ ^w^Idaa^myoppoi;:^ the future worJd; bu| he did not P~Te1t : L Sil "TJ ''" '" prove it. He knows aa wa/l .» r ^ ;.* "»"">^"»j«nd he cannot - OldTestamentthatap^aJ^fiTeindL * '''*"' ^"^^ '"»'>• butwhenhe .hall .^.^^t L I'"'*.?"™'*'"'- '"*'^ "^J « th«life; fut„reworId,l7ip^"^lri!. f ""^^ '^ ^^ « « the leavemyfriindtodn^J*::^'^!*""!^^^ L do I .haH attend, to it! mV opZntlt'" " f ^ *" '-^» "^nd if he*' «Jmitted the judgment WLE!;'"^''"*"«»'«'« «« "«> in» that I ^ upon me to yiefd S« Zt^ I tr'""'""""' '"'** he then called ' gratiiyingtohLifi:SVit;S; 1^^^^ work of proving such a moratro^^l'^Bu; f;^-^' h'™ «h« up-hill him, for I must continue hU^plTauch !lL ? ~"^ ' '^^^^^ " God givee me health a^SS^ l^r T "^°"'"'«* '° W moment to see if I would SmJ^Mv? ™^/""'^ *""''* P'*"-^ » accommodatii ^^O^^.^^:^ -an was ao polite, and so yield. Let him prove hii^Ti^^. ^[ P^'^n^ed before, I cannot .he doctrine ^Ss^Tit^'^"'*^^^^^^ -her. lamopeJ^:::.^ r^l^- -;-'«f theworM^ that I, an indiviUual of some ZJ^l T T "" *°™*" «"PP*«« Hdiscretiori, and havi^'^SSfS^'"^ "'"''** '-* alittlej does any one supposeTari w« u ?^ cate a doctrbe that is opE ,11 Tv- "f^ ***'« «"'•' ^^'- doctrine th,t is false? You k|K,w^^uTd nn. ^f^ilJ" '^''**'*"ea , trine of endless miseiy, I wouW a^S"."!. f behevedjhe doc- A wdrld. Ut my friend convince ITatV^T"^^^^ beforethe and I will yielJthe point"il^ ^wm^nST *''"'' ^'' and against Scripture. Bather let m. J , ^^ "«*•■"* ^*°> mouth, and let r^ .ink S:;t^S';;^t;a?V^'n;^^^> means of deluding my fellow cre^ur !: nf l^? '^""^*^ ^ '^« - to a pit of endless^lesjair. w/STn Z V **^'"- '^''" '^"^'^ - %. ■•/■ •( V not the savings of Jtte book, for the time'is at hand. Ye^, it was at hand, eighteen centuries ago. Daniel was commanded to seal the saying of his book for^he titne was not at hand ; the circumstances spoken oi in the book ^^ere not to tianspire for 500 years afteiwards, and yet 1800 years are passed away, and John was comtnanded not to seal the book for the tim? was at hand. I deny that the expression " lake of fire and brimstone refers to a future world. I deny that the exproHsion second death refers to a future world. We say persons in this world are dead ; but hot endlessly so. Persons die a spiri^al death here, and they.are brought to life in Christ, They are quickened together ii^ Christ. What kind of death is that second death ; is it annihilation? is it endless misery orwhat is it 7 He has made a great ado about the last day. This he advanced several times^ and consi- dered il conclusive evidence that it was after death, in a future world. But as he has given no evidence 6f this idea^ it has no bearing upon the point. He will s,ltl] insist that I have the affirmative to day; that I have to prove so and. so. I ain not to prove anything to-day. It is my business to follow)him, and'show that his evidence is insufli- cient tp prove his proposition. He said I quoted>from commentators, ^rtain evidence in relation to a passage from Matthew, but he will bear in mind that they ate iiis own commentator^,— men who believed in the doctrine of endless misery, aiid who plainly state the true meaning of the passdge which Uni versa lists admit, and the same ex- planation which Universalistfl adopt. The gentleman finds fault with this. If he is ashamed of such company, I cannot help it ; they are all oh his side of the question y they are not Universalistfl I consider that Universalist testimony is not worth a straw in this debate, and therefore I do not present it at all. But if the Bible says thus and so» then that is sufficient evidence. If my friend bfings a Universalist C9mtnentator that maintains the doctrine of jindless misery from any of the passages he has introiluced for that purpose, then that is sufficient evidence,^If I bring forward a commentator who belioves in end- less misery, who maintains that a passage or quotation means difTerent from what my friend believes, that is sufficient evidence in the debate. Still the word Of God is the book of appeal for all, aud that is the best Universalist book in existence. x' '\. Mr. Harris.— Friends, you are aware my opponent stated that iff would prove a judgment after the resurrection, he would yield the point. I accordingly went on to prove that the heavens and the earth would flee a^ay ; — but I will read the passage as it is/ and will ring it in his ears and will keep it before his eyes, and before the inindsof this audience ; because no man that lives and breathes- can take that passage oiit of my hands. Rev. xx, 11—^" And I saw a great white throne, an^im that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; my. KIBl WM fonnd ho place for them. And I. saw the dead, sidall , «tand before God} and the book was opened, which is th« We ; and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the book according to their work*. And.the sea gave up the dead which were in it : and death and hell delivered upthe dead which were in them jandHlfey were judged, every man according to their , works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." I would ^ now simply state that the gentleman did not kindle his fire in tine because I have taken away the heavens and the earth. The material jpheavensand^earth are gone, and he could i^ build a fire upon it. because he has no place to build upon. I havesbown that the htavens jnd the earth fled away, for there was no place for ihem.^ Ihavegot him a lake of fire burning with brimstone, into which are to be cast who- soever has not hisname written i. the book of life,-afld this is the Mcond death. The gentleman wants to know xvhat is ^meant by the wcond death. J will say, men die naturally when they ceaab to exist ntheworW andfhenarespirituallydea,lwhenthojfcdonotenioythe ' iwn1S.m'""t ^-"P-^««»'«--"<' «ay tJ^at it was staeS-l!! l(hh of^ eo'ne qu|okly." He wished you to understand that on he Archb, hop Usher's Chronology, and that then it was sealed. He wished you distinctly to understand that it was hot hi« business to prove anJ J^ ®; K *" '"^ ^"*^- ' ^'""^ ' «•" P'---" »hat very clear^ J^wlJ ' !"' «- *'"""'*'' "^ *° '''•"' »'•*' the'evidence I bring forward is not sufficient proof. I adduced 'Rev xx 12 14 t Tl- w m Bpon this earth. I know he will hot do it. He aska me if I was ashameci of the commeritators that he chad brought forward. I am not ashamed of them ; but I still say, If ye rec^ve the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, The proposition is,— 2A) the Scriptures teach the doctrine of endleaa mikery to any portion of th& human family. I will noW proceed to the doctrine of the judgment ; and if 1 aln to take the lead, I may lead my friend into deep water. In*9nde, 6^h verse, it is stated :— " And the angels Which kept.not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting cliains, under darkness, ante the judgment of the gieat day." Here alM, friends, is an account of the Sodomite«, and of the destruction of the city of Sodom. " Even as Sodom and Gojjfiorrah, and the cities •bout them, in like manner, giving themselves over to fornioatibn, and 'going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, sullering the vengeance of eternal fire." It is declared they are set forth for an ex- ample^ sufferin^he vengeance of eternal fire. They Went after strange flesh, and gave themselves over to fornicatioff, and are consequently set forth as an example. Here, friends, is something that is awful, some- ^thing that id wonderful^ brought to bear upon the point. Luke xi, 31— ' « The Queen of the South shall rise up in the jmlgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them ; for she came from thq utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon ; an", behold, a gieater than Solomon is here. The men of Ninev.eh shall rise up in the judg- ment with this generation and shall condemn it, "Cor they repented at the preachihg of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." The Ninevltes had lived and difed 800 years ^eforethte Christian eraj yet we are told that they will rise up with the men of this generation and shall condemn th6m. The Queen of the South shall be at the judg- ment, and the men of Nineveh shall be at the judgment, anti no won- der. The resurrection is general, and all Adam's sons and Eve's daughters, to the end of time, shall be asseinbltsd there. 2nd Timothy iv. 1, will tell us when the judgment will take place. « leharge thee therefore, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ; who shaA judge tl\p . quick and the dead at his appearing in his Kingdom. Yes! that is the time, when the quick and the dead shall be judged. According to the idea advanced by xriy friend here, this is onlj the judgm^iit of this world. He would have al 1 men to bp judged here. But thjB Bible tells us, He will judge the quick and the diead at his appearing in his King- dom. Ist Peter i v, 5— « Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead." Here, fBendSy v^e ha^^ an account given us that Jesus Christ shall judge the quick ar.#the dead, and it is said also that he is ready. Foj time wjth God i^ not, like time with men. The Lord is always ready to attend to the affairs ot all men, and ready to hear us when We pray unto him. These pSkssages point outa t«be day, and give us to understand that tl^e quick ainl the dead shall be T^ ^ ^ ^^ :\ ■x;\./.:: -r j«dg|«i;i Ihi^ tim^ Oh, .olemn fact! repealed in the^Biblo fpr all Adam'arac«.. The gentleman .l.,od .hat if I proved my prop^ij" •n.i ""uiBBB misery, t/ I am convinced ol itn correctness, and con^quently there^would be an addition to the number. Uoui; m1^ r *;>"'""'' '" "''*"°" <« °«« point- in the belief of the Method..tH, t].at commend, itself ,o the heart of every goo.] mln! in ^^''''T '""■ ^'^"^ " ♦^'' Saviour of the whiWwTr !ld^; ?'"•""' '** ""*' »" »*»• '^"WJ while Calvini»t,;«: tend only to save a party. Methodists «iy Christ died for 7 The • Pvt tSr t'T;'"'"" »«'V"'^^''*'""'^ w. get Universalism . LfJ ^.u ^' T "' **"' *"*^°^°* gentlemen have Universal!.™ ^ ft outZ • K ""' ' """ "'""« ^^ let Calvinists and MeSut^ intheHevelMit,^ ;S^jf«;;--^^-f^-^ it^t. he dies ^ his i„^uity,ffi::;LSS;'^S of death, 1,8k, did he die in his iniquity? Th«n Wv . .. "** what kind of death he died for it b! ^h i ^'"'" '«' •""» «eli us, ^^r;:;jf^%B^;^^^ i^-ut that woi^l;^ j":;sr^3^^^^^^ rf«rarfo« of punishment, he ha, to prove herftn^Ivu V " replied to thesaying of John, i„ Jation toThr^'h "t "°* whenthese things written shall.be f^Ife^ My Wend °'"' 'r' we« written af^er rhe destruction ^f JerSn. ^^ tJalt;?"^ I can name as many commentators who contend 2 t/T; * ' have been written a«cr the de8trurt.«„ „f r , """''' ""* that there is ^nfi::^:!^':^'^ '^^ -<* ' contend before the destruction of Jerusalem- for it In"? been wnttea . Temple which was standing M?'f " eipres^ly speaks of the ■take the 20ikch^T^Z^ "''^':i"^''^' that I should ^ ^h chapter^l^^eli^ir^^t S; t'L^^ ^h ' ^T' fire is in the future world, and J it c^^LTn etlV "''" °^ Not a word of it I Mked «,„ r • j consists in endless misery? that this lake b? J mSu-Z^'f "''" ^'"^ '' '''''' " -« ^ fhi« x,^„r I, i meant, but I have received no answer in ./■ '-•^it^MMHHIMM^. 7i ■'* ■ , m 93 from God out of heaven and devoured them. And thd devil that deceived them watoait into the lake of fire and brimslone, where the btatt and the fajne prophets are, and^shall be tormented day and ntV/U for ever and ever. I wjah to know if there are daya and nights in ^^^ternily T Here is a difflcuhy my friend has to get ov6r ; and there is more in this chapter which I shall treat him to by and by, as^oon as he disposes of what I have given him to do. He said Christ shall judge the quick andthe dead at his appearing in his kingdom. Yos, I believe that, but his Kingdom commenced eighteen centuries ago. And it is plainly said that ho shall judge the quick and the dead at his « appear- ing''-not in the future world, bul-in his Kingdom, and this I main- tain is all the judgment stated here, ami it will continue to exist, and Christ will continue to rule and reign until all are subdue.l unto him, and God be alt in a}L My friend quoted a passage from Jude, about being set forth for an hxumple. In the first place, before tieming him d commentary on th^ New Testament, 2 vols., folio, London 1827, says-" That this is spoken hot of the Cities themselves, but of the inhabitants which dwelt In them-i. e., of them who had givea themselvesover to fornication, ind gone after strange flesh,— isevidenf but yet I conceive they are said to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire' not because their souls are at pi^esent punished in hell fire, but because' they, and tlieir cities, perished frflm that fire of heaven which brought a Mr£etu^ and irreparable destrtjction on them and their cities." In r^on tolhe lake of fire and the aecond death, J Will treat my Wend to the opinion of JQ^r. Hammond, flesays— ■' /'T''*y*|'»t holdout to the end, ^hat persevere in despite of all thsMi temptflti<.n<, shall continue a prosperous, flourishing Churrh.-shiU riot hara their canolestick removed from them, as they shall that, by the sharpness^Of perBecuiions, are scandalized and fall off from Christ." '■""'""'^rnes^oi In hisremaikson the j^sage in Revelations, where the word ' *' hell » is rtsed, my friend/insintio/erf tljat that hell was in the future world, and" a pface of endless punishment. He then asserted, - « let the gentleman show if he oan that there is a hell on thi4 earth." 1 will inform my friend that this can be done. I will inftain him of a hell the Psalmwt was in, not only so, but the lowestiell, and all in this life. Vet God brought him out of it, and the Psalmist wiyjl the time in this hfe. I cannot see for the life of me, what myoppJKint is about. There are several passages in the\ Bible that I knotii! Hiy oppo- nent believes tisach unequivocally the doctrine ia dispute, and I am • 4 1 f-t eioeeJInjfly aAklous thtt ha would bring op thieM (uuMigiis and let oa give them all (tie iiiretligaitiUn'and lime that we can. But liearhe will put them off in tbia debate aa he did the laat. Matt.', 25th chap* . ler, he, cowaid-like, put off to the last apeech in the laat debate he waa engaged in. I am an«ioua to meet the ayoogeat proola he oaa bring forward from the word of CSod. Mr. Harris,— The first remark that I would attend to U that in regard to CailViniats aud Methodists. They would make good Universal ists, — that, is, if mixed up together they would arrive at the conclusiun that all would be saved ; for, says my friend, the Calvinista believe that Christ died for the elect, and the Methodists believe that Christ died for all^,'— consequently, as the Methodists believe that Christ died for all, aiid the Calvinists that all he died for will be saVedf they would make together a beautiful flock of Univorsalists. This would all be right; but we have not arrived attbut point yet. My friend referred to Ezekiel xviii.^6, and wished to' know what wae the cause of the second death. I take it for granted that he died in his sin, but I do nut know whether it was in a drunken fit, or of some, disease brought on by soiQe bad habits. After he was dead, he died for his iniquity, and this is what I call the second death. My attention was invited to the twentieth chapter of Revelation, to show that the .circumstances connected with the judgment were nOt in that place. But I admired his ingenuity in keeping away from the eleventh verse ; he quoted the eighth verse and then the ninth verse, but the tenth verse says : « And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be toripented day and night for ever and over." What circum- Btanco in the history of man,— what circunlstance in man's entire history accords with this in the world : « They were cast into a lake of fire to be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The expression "day andnight for ever and ever," is applied to convey an idea of continual time, or never-ending existence, and some read « the forever of the forevers." My friend stated that I was cowardly, and dare hot come to the 25th chapter of Matthew. I will come to that immediately, in the afternnOn;^ but I was reserving « it till then; —I want to have the whole of this subject cleared up, and then I will join the Univorsalists forthwith." I will first, however, refey to Acts X., 42 : « And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead, and he is appointed to judge the world in righteousness." J^niel vii., 9, 10: I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was 'like thefier^F flame, and his wheels as bumiBg_^i0. A^fiery stieiitm is^d and 4li ■■.■■■'•". ■; ■ :- ■ ■ ' ^. ■ ■■■■'■'•,.. came forth from before himj thousands thousands ministered unta him, and ten thousand times ton thousand stwal before him. The judgment was sot, and the books were oiHsnod" ' Daniel tloos not say when tho thrones were oaat down. Tliey are not yot cast down. I'jhere is still the throne of En«lan of judgmant and perdition of ungodly men." Judo 14, 18: "Enoch , also, lh« Mveiith from Adam, pro|)liasiud of those, flaying, Bohold th«. Loffl oomelh wtlh ten thousand of his aainta, to eiecute judgment upon •U, and to oonVinoe all that are ungodly of tho ungotlly d«odt which Ihey have ungodly oommitted, and of all their hard apeeches which I ungodly ainnert have spoken against him. Mr. Lavkll.— It seems that my statement, that Calvahium and Methodism united would make Univorsalism, has iK)thored my friend a littlo } but the more he examines it the more will he bo confirmed ia the idea, that what 1 have sai<| is true. In relation to the passage in Ezekiel, hq said it did not refer to spiritual death dying in sin ; but ha did not give one word of proof for it. ' He says it means natural death, and then the death he dies afterwards must be a second death, and all done by bare faced assumption. Ho has not offered ono wonl of proof. I ask him to prove what the second death and the lako of fire- for they are both one thing in the Revealations— mean. I ask him to prove that ' they refer to the future and immortal life, but he has not offered' one word, nor can he. But he goes to Ezekiel and aaya here is the same second death mentioned, and assumes that the first death is a death in time, and the other endtett death. O tempore, Omoreal U this the logic of my friend? Now Sir, prove to me that the secorid death and lake of fire and brimstone is in the future world. This id what I ask for, to., it matters not what you think Exekiel means. This is what last you to prove. My friend has been dabbling in the Revelation, all tht morning, a book universally acknowledged tojjb highly figurative! But it matters not whether the book is highly figurative, or whetherlt ' is literal ; wrightor wrong, he is bound to grasp a passage some where that would seem to help him in this debate. He has assumed tht/the passages he has quoted are literal, this I deny. But let him prov»io me that the second death, and lake of fire is in.the immortal wotid, and he will have proved hU proposition. My friend said the e/pression « day and night for ever and ever," in the Revelations, wa»4 give us •ome idea of unending time. This is at least somethin/new under the sun. It is too much to say, that the expression d^and night, gives an idea of time that is unending. The exprea^n id day and night, but then he concludes that because the words/lor ever and ever are attached to it, therefore it refers to eternity. I deny that the word «« for ever » means a duraUon without end,-and4mand proof of it : and I shall give yon plenty of evidence this afternoon, that the word « for ever » does not necessarily of s itself me^ unending time, and that the word "eternal » in scripture do«!s not necessarily of itself mean endless. My friend said that ^-ause the thrones are ta bo cast down, and as the throne of En^and existo, and the wretched Louis Napoleon e«i»ta, and the Pope , a n d « o onoist, that thU rare coma to pcM. Hut I aiuiu) I Mk who trouhleil the 'rhM«iH«lunuint7 nud for ptmt that it wcfl thfl Jow!<, that trcMibUtd thnm, it is Miti in I Htuiis. ii. 15, Who Ixt^i killoth tlwj Lortl Josus ami thoir own proplifiji, oiul liavo perfloctued us: and thuy pl«Muw not iM, and ikru coiitmry to all nuen. Af^ain in Actn ivii. 5-7, iVho ahalt Ix) piiniHhod with ipvarlasting deiitnictionT Those who troubled (he TIi< lonianii ahall beYtini«h«d with everlasting dentrpotion from the pro*- tenco df the Lord anTfTle glory of hia power. Ocies my fiiendundor- •land that any portion of mankind can be driven from the presonceof Godf' No, ho cannot prove it. Psalm oxrxix., 7: " Wliither ahall I go (roni thy Spirit? or whither ahall I floe from thy preaenco? If I aicend up into heaven, thou brt there. If I make my bed in hnil, thou art thetv. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the utter-' most parts of the sea, even there ahall thy band load me, and thy right harki 6h«U hold me." What doea my friend mean then by being banished from the presence of the Lord 1 It moans the special pre- sence of the Lord, which was cspooially in the temple of Judua, aa •rery Bible rdadur knows; «nd hence the whole lias reference to the Jews. Ho says — How could the Jews be banished when tlioy were so far from Jerusalem f I maintain thttt th^umslmffent inflicted at the breaking up of the old dispensation an(Mp||Mtabli8hment of tho new waa inflicted upon all Jews under hem^. They were all Jnoludetf. However, the quotation^ from the Acts and in the^^iiessa- lonians inoontestibly prove that it was the Jews that were to be bartisli- edv. Then the expression,— <* Everlasting deatiuction." I wish to- knojir what my friend means by destruction?— if he means by it emfless misery? for this 1 contend is one of his equivocal words. He quoted a passage from Hebrews, to prove a judf^ment after death. Hob. ix., 27— <■' And as it is appoihtod unto men once to die, but after this tite judgment," I ask my friend what .tlie word ** »»" refers to ? I ask, If, . as an honest man, he will not say that it refers to the death of the Jewish High Priests. As it is appointed unto these men — the Jewish High Priests — once to die, but after thi8-\the death of the Jewish High Priests— the judgment: ** so Christ was once otfersd to bear thd sinsof many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second tirao, without sin unto salvation." From this it is evident that it has no refer- ence whatever to the death of all meii. ll would be nonseuse to say r.: > >"i 'ora ind self to bed that Christ was oAce offered in the same way as all men. Mr. Harbib.— My friend said he would not help me out of the . difhculties into which I had placed myself. I am satisfied, if I »«k his \, belphe would relioTe me for he is a man of tender compassion: My f «« 1 1 '■'i:\ tUB: , '%.-'-. ■■-.-'. ' ■■* ■ ,",:■"■ ■■.■-■■:"■'■■■ < . v/ ^■■H rrnn.! referred .oth.pM..go I h,.l qu<..«.| from E*,kid. H. „jj J It Z "*; r* '" fT"' •" "'" "•""""' ^•'•"'- ' "'"d- «m«rk. op«ii„,l, ana another book wa« on«„tfd which i. 1 .! u V?, ' lhHe.dwerei„dgedou.of.h6.er«;.: hV;, ':„ta:H IT' .cco,ding.o.h«irwork^.„d death .'d be., wJ:^^^^^^^ ^ ei/ Have declared their inablH^^tSSl^^'r ^"^ prove that the future st^te ihZl^fjL^Tu-''^'^^^^^^^ ''- lake of fir« in in the future etarTntheVr. " ^'°'^ '^^' ^ ti«ris we read of teasts and Se'pr^w ,! "^"P'"' "^ «he HeVela- of fire bumin, -i^^rir^r,^^^^^^^^^ '^' ' this language to the immortal ^e^'^^Z^^'^'^^S admitted my criticism on the verse in ThncT - ^ opponent J ■;;,-; v::-;-,;:\;-: .:■■ ibt ■ ^■; •.;;■•■;.':■ ;/:■■■• senfenco, "thoy would ho banished from the presence of God," means that thoy would bo banished from the happiness of the saints. Kut as there is no such statoment in the sacred text I reject it. If he contends the passage has a double moaning,' then I wish to kiiqw why it may not have fifty meanings. My opponent's criticism on liah. ix., 27, if abusing. I reminded him there was a Greek word omitted by the traiisJatprs, which if inserted in tllo text would make it road :, " As it ii appointed unto the$e 7»en"— that is, the JewisWltgh Priests— "once to die, but after this the judgment, so ChristHs once odered to bear the sius of many. It is plain that this is the meaning of the passage ; it was appointed unto the Jemah High Hrieatf once to die. I would ask this audience— What has my fripnd, Mr. Harris, brought forward this morning to pirove the doctriue of endless miseiy for any portion of the human family. He has proved the doctrine of a resur- rection from: the dead, which no Christian, no Universalist denies. No ; it ia the pillar of our faith j Jesus and the resurrection is the foundation of all our hope|8. My friend has attempted to prove the doctrine of a resurrection of the same identical body ; but in this I concreive he failed, inasmuch a? he has not presented testimony suffi- , cient. St. Paul plainly sets it aside : « Thon a&weal not that bo being children of the resurrection. Not because they main- tained certain charsujters in this life, but because they are children of the resurrection. If there is a human being who will not be raised from the dead, I assert he will not be a child of God. All are to be raised from the dead, consequently a« will be children of God, feeing- children of the resurrection. The statement of the Apostle is, « As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." AH go downifc Adam,. and all come up in Christ, the lord from Heaveii. Mr. Habris.— My friend commenced by stating that I had as yet faitedin proving a lake of fire and briinstone in a future state. I will ring it in his ears again. Rev. X3c.,H : « And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on jt, from whose face the earth and t he heavens fled away J and there was found- no place for them." This >' ysfifwf^ 102 VM no myiterioufl book ywlarday, when he quoted from it, but it beeame ni7«terion> lut night. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Thiaia the aecond death." There it i«/ again, and ewi7 time it comes out, it only injure* his cause. My friend has nere'r _ ttaohod the eleventh verse to-day, because, if he touches that verse he would have to acknowledge that he had no place left on which to kindle bis fire ; he would be without any place for hell, according to his idea of things. His sUtements are however down in black and white and will cross tne Niagaia River and find a home in the Republic. ' Mv friendstated, "that the Old Testament gave but a dim light of a futuw •tate. ^ Be it so, life and immortality are brought to light by the aos- pel,and the qnestlon asked by an afllicted Jpb,-If a man die shalthe il",!r» ," "T"!^ '" ^"^^ " '""^^'- "I «m the resurrection and the life.»» It » by the resurrection of JesUs Christ that we shall be "H^L K "1?*? di^f ™y™'"'*^~™ the subject, my friend said: What have I to do with the battles of kings and captains." I will however eall the gentleman's attention close to this part of my subject nikeatight-gripe-afirm hold-in order that we come toafarrconclu- sion. My friend said I,agreed with him about the Theswlonians. I agreed with him so fw is to say, that the Jews persecuted the Thessa-^ Jonians; bat the part on which I disagreed with him was the more essentiarpart, ns far as this debate is concerned, viz.;- Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his power f We come now to definitions. The yroTdaivvov, from which everlasting is translated, accordirtg to Grove's Greek Lexicon, means immortal, perpetual, unending state. I will quote Arittotl.„the tutor of Alexander the Great, he said it wasderived from at tov, that is from being, or being without end. This was the opinion of him whose p#il conquered many nations, when he mounted his Bucephalus and rode into battle and dyed his sworf with human blood. My fnoiid touched on Hebrews ix., 27, and wid it had refer- ence to the Jewish High Priest. This time he dA not say anythinir •bout figurative language. But what does the Apostle say,-" As it is appointed unto men once to die, but afterthis the judgment : so Christ wa.opceofferedtobearthe»insofmany.';Hereitisappoi„teduntomen once to die-(thank heaven not tw«fe)-for if man diesa seconddeath. he does not do so by the appointment of heaven. My friend is satisfied that I proved the resurrection. I am glad I have done so. But, he savs I have not yet proved, resurrection of the same identical body, forget- ting that I told him what the afflicted Job had said: «I knowthat rty Redeemer liveth, and though after my skin worms destroy this bod v yet mmy flesh will I see God.V My friend did not q.^e that passage in PhiMippian. 111., 2l : " Who shall change our vile body that it mly Je fashioned like unto his glorious body." But he went on to 1 Cor xr 44: "It IS sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." And ■ ■ 108 ■:.••■'-■.■ tgain : " Thon fool, that which thou aowest-is not quickened, except it die ; and that which thoa sowest, thou sowest not that body that Bhail be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat or some other grain. But God giveth it a body." But it is erident that it is no resurrection unless it is the same body,-'it would be ^ new creation. The reason of Paul's remarks is this :— Those individuals th%t shall be found on earth shall be changed, and of course as it is the same body, the individuals will have those boilies changed. Those that are alive will be changed, and those that died will be raised with the same body. My friend stated that I could not prove endless misery before the tesurreotion. Of oouri>e that is the reason why I bSgan with the resurrection tlfis mnrn* ing, and as the gentleman has admitted that I have proved the resur- rection, I am coming now right on to the very point to prove the endless misery of the ungodly in the future state. Now we are coming to close qilarters. Now for argument. Matthew xiii., 30 : " Let both grow toge- ther, until the harvest ; and in the time of harvest, I will say to my reapers, Gather ye- together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat iiito my barn." Now I will give you the explanation of that para,ble from verses 37-41 : /<,He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom ; but the tares are the children o' %he w joked j)ns. The enemy that sowed them is the dovil ; the harvest is: the end of the world ; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are {gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this .world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they iball gather out of hief^khigdom all things that ofiend, and them \\ lilch do iniquity, and Ihall cast them into a furnace of fire ; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." May God help them to listen ! (Amen.) Here friends is , not only a parable, but its explanation by Christ himself. Mr. LAVKLL.-^My friend seems to be very anxious sometimes about the time being up. I hope, however, he will keep up his cuu- >. ragd. He alluded to St. Paul's figure of grain illustrating the resurrvcr lion of the dead— ^to illustrate the change that shall take place. But let any of you farmers take a grain of wheat and put it into the ground — i^ it the same identical grain of wheat that you reap next harvest? NuJ certainly not. So, then, since it is sown in corruption, it is . raised not in corruption ; for Paul states that it is raised i° incoriuption, consequently it is not the same identical body in the tesurrectioa^; When I spoke of Revelations xix, in w^hich there is something evidently 'belonging to this world, my .friend says it is figurative ; but he keeps quoting froin the Revelations, and we do not know vbether be believes it figurative or literal. He took a dire into Greek #' r bow9rer, io hit last apeeob. He aai J, « •hort time •gci,ib»i he ww going into (l«ep water, I think io he i«, but I would -mdyie him lo w«Ik into It yery slowly for fear he go beyond hi. depth. He gave Ma onticum of the Greek noun aitop, and muI itie word meant, on th» authority of Grove, '♦ lifnmortaJ, periwlwl, unending." I will risk th» asaertion that there is not a lexicographer on the face of the earth, un- less It be Grove tliat will give the delinilion '« entllessly » to the noun •iwi^that the word means « endles. » I *imit. But what gives it Ihia meaning? It i» the subject to whieh it is applied. WUl my friend have thecandour to admit that the word means limited time freu«d with the authority of Aristotlo that tlie word means " always bein^,»* us it i» junpounded of «a " always," and .. "being;" and-therefoTeitmoao* "endless state of being." I aver that there is no such agreement among lexicographers, in regftrd to the derivation of this term. It is notnecessaryto forma„v from. these two terms. It may bederived Irom the verb „„v and it need'only be its present particiide converted' jntoanarljective. Its proper for«e, in reference, ta^uration, seems t» be, a duration as long as it lasts; but it may be completed and finished ~ as "an age," " a dispensation-.'' i also m.aintain thai the sense pf wordsrdepends more upon Usage than upon derivation: The question 18,-What IS the use of this word in the Greek? This is the question before us. JVIy friend's quotation from Matthew itiii., is not to the pomt "lJefieldistheworld,thegoo.i^arethexhildrenof the kingdom; but the tare, are the chUdren of the wicked one. The- enomy that sowed them is the devil.. The reapers are the angels '> Tderiy that ih^ end of the ^vnrld means the end of this maton,^ l^em^^^"^'-!^'^'^ word mj.frie„d depends upon to noun the^adjective cannot mean mort, than the noun from which « « u. denved. Neither can th. adiecUve of it be used to ^rrss an ■■-— ^. ■ . ■ i r-' ' _ eadl my f ence •war pasii ' thee h. ■ • ■■•■• -, m- , v. ■•■■■"■ •adlMs duration.* The ejjpreBaion " fumaca of rire" is uned hero, anJ my friend assumPB that this funiaco is in the imrnortul state of exirt- ence; but I demand proof of this. I wish to know from him if he is •ware that Egypt is called a furnace. Isa. xxxi., 9 : « Aftd he shall pass o»er to his stronghold for foar, and his princes shall b« nfniid o the ensign, saith the Lord, whoso fire is ui Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem." He will learn fn.m this) that the furnace of Hro was in JorusaiOm, and he knows this la so. "The S«n of Man shall send fohh Jiis angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdonj ail things that offend, and thorn which do iniquity." Hero we are expressly told that there shall be no sinners in his kingdom, for they shall be gathered out of it. Tliore sliall be no iniquity committed in his kingdom. Tlie fact is, the gentleman doosniot understand the parable at all. He must make another attempt, and a better one. In quoting the passages from Alatthew xiii. my friend takes for granted the Very point at issue between tw. -Why does be quote these passages ? I know that they are all there, but the fact is, a more statement of a passage of scripture is no evidence of the proposition under debate. If I do not understand it as my friend does, I see dilferent from liim; yet I Claim to be as deeply "interosted in looking at the subject as my. friend is. We both believe >iho word, and he was bound by every rule of controversy to show its import. .•"' .■■^'^■- ■■■■' ;\ ."■ ■ :' :■.' ' '■ "■'■"■.■■■'■■■'.■■"■■"■■.■■■.'■■■ ; '. ■ .-' * Mn. Harbis.— My learne■'■ fi it! '/■ •!;%■• 10« . \ ^ thou haat been our dwelling placeinatl fsen^ion». ^ettimihemimn^ .g U.n. were brought forth, or ever thou hmirt form^U the earth and the worl.1, oven from everlwting to everlasting thou ail Cod." Gen. xxl, M : " And Abraham plantml a grove in Beemheba, and called there on the name ofthe Lord, the everlasting God. Here, both these passages are applied to God, and cannot necessarily mean any thing else tha.y endless duration. We shall turn our attention now for a little to thi. parable, or rather to this explanation of a parAble which the Saviour has himself given : « The Son of Man shall send forth hi, angels, and they shall gather out of his king.lom all thing, that offend, and them which do miquity. TI.e harvest is the end of the world, and the reaper. «e the angols ; the tare, are the children of the wicked ono,»» Now we are plainly told that the harvest is the end of the world.' We can- ?1, r^ .^."""T*'' '"'■"' "''"'''^^^ destruction of Jeru«ilom, ^JH *,*' 'l" ""^ *"• '''^ '^lendaU aver the ivottl chSdref^r "Ti "h'W"" of the kingdom; the tare, are the Ju neT^ ^.r'n ""! ' '"^ " •*'*' **"'" "™ 8«'h"ed together and ■ LndLr V ^ "' '^'"''^ "' ♦'"'" *°'''^- "^^ Son of Man shall tZts tt, r? "'iT^ *"y "•>"" S^*''"'^"' °f »»« kingdom all thmgs hat offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them m^n ^r" : '''•■ *'*"' ''^''" ^ "'^'«"« aid gnashing of teeth men they are thu, eeparated, then shall the righteous shine forth aa the sun in th« kingdom of their Father." At the time these wicked one, are to^be suffering under the influence of this fire, weepin;a„d wailing and gnashing their teeth. Now at the very same time that the righteous are to be shining as the sun in the kin-Z. tZ plt «Lr„r.H"*'K'' """"^ ''"'' gnashing .hei;teeth. Unlesfth^ taTu^ti^n T Tk"''""^ and gnashing their teeth .re equil m dumtion to the joys of those that are shining in the kin^om of their Father, tlu,re will be a contrast between the two parties: My friend *ather. I„ fact, he said little or nothing on the subject, so that I will not treat^him to any thing on that point at present; but wil lin^" his attention to one or two thing, growing out of the drcumrnceslf one mdjvidual I will call him Juda, Jscariot. Matt. «vi. 2^ « The ^Z^a^V^KT"''"^'' ofhim; but woe mitothat man by whom^the Son of Man i. betrtiyed ! it had Deen good for that man ff found in. No circumstance in life, no circumstance in the world in which a man could be placed, ahhough he lived a thousand year ~^.^d -*e2L V • ^^""^ '^' '' ^'^"''^ ^^'^ ^««" »^«er that he h^ ^\^'^''"^';. InMaM., 28, it is said, .« Verily I say »nta you, ^«.|^shairbe fo,gl<;; unto men, and blasphemies 107 Now wherewith aoAver they aliall blupbeme ; but he that ahall Matpheme .gainst the Huly Ghoat hath never forgivunoM, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Stronger language could not be framed ; ideas oould not bo couched in stronger language than wliat is here used con- cerning those that committed the sin against the Holy Ghost. That there lire some tliat oould commit it, there is no doubt, or these words had never been written, and if 'they did commit that sin, they were not only never to be forgiven, but they were in diingcr of eternal dam- nation — to be then condemned, eternally coiiJeraiied lb eternal misery. We have here, in the first place, 'Miath never forgiveness,'* and then, "eternal damnation." This is what we may say refers to the future • atate,— " ef erno/ damnofton." Here are two passages of scripture to which I invite my friend's attention. As soon as he has attended to Matthew ziii. 30, and when he has proved the point he has undertaken, that this docs not refer to the immortal state, or the winding up, the final consummation of all things, ho would have done something to disprove the point I have in hand ; and when ho has proved that it were better for Judas to have been born and to 'have acted an ho did, h^ will have done something towards disproving my position ; and when ha proves that the man who sinned against the Holy Ghost would have bfwn better to have been bom, he will have done some- thing towards disproving my position ; but until that, there is nothing done. 'WW Mr. Lavkli.— Mytiriend has just stated that when I have proved that the quotation from Matt, xiii, 30 does hot refer to the immortal state,^ I ' will have done something towaAls disproving his proposition, I would teihind my* friend that I am not here to-day tb prove a negative. No . man can prove a negative. My friend has forgotten that he has the affirinative to-day. I Iiad it yesterday. He is bound to prove his pro- position to-day, and I am bound to follow him and show that his argu- ments are not sufficient to dosOt He wishes to turn the labouring oar upon mo again to-day, but this cannot be, as he has the affirmative, I gave hmi one or two objections to Matt. 13, 30, that it did not refer to the immortal state. He assumed two points on which I deinand proof. I wish him to prove that the end of the world, in the passage alluded to, means the destruction of this material universe, for it is notorious that one of the words rendered "world" is in the original piiov, and the other xosftoff, two entirely different words. But he eays that the end of aiovorago — could not possibly have taken, place at the destruction of Jerusalem. ' Let us fiee whether it did or not Heb. ix, 26 — " For then must he often have suffered since the feundatioh of the world ; but now once, in the end of the world, hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." The end of the world did takeplac^. St. Paul declares that Jesus did appear in the end of the world, or age, to put 106 f- I »» ■ *"'•)'•'"• Tli.li my IMmid hai Mmmillliu Iho iLrf ...,_i..,.. •Mh mly ,l„, h. m.ko .hi, i«,„ton when h. kmw, Ih., h I. ^. . ,; unto that man by Wfiom the Son of lyfon fe betmy«d j it hid W^ %thatmaaifheh»dnotbee„bor.,.» Dr. Ctarkr^yt-T . ^ on M^!'»yi7^''Xil\^l^^^^ »»'"» o' -«-, In mj not. toexprew «he stole of aTr^a^rn.tP^^JJf'***' '»""»' •P«oh wnong ih«J«w8 the eaM of any damned aonl ■ hnt wfc--T « i v ™"° '" *•"" "'"'^« note to that it ba, iH.e':. »Zt"^„',''^^,S'^i,l^'ii:'^* PfOWbW aaylng.and of a sinner J. not impHed. it may bS canl^ 1% . '* °' #' *"?«'"»W« doom tion than what is g/nemily Sren toltT . * , '°°" "*'°"^'* Interpreta- Sontuohforthecaseof Jndaii %lvf^^»Au '\ . -ftalms ««p,-*. <• T"' *''''"«»'* ^q"o*»d a paasftge from «aims, Ereli from ei^eriaating to everlaf ing thou art Go7» nnJi. *'" lated from, and doe. not of itself mean endle^i mia^^ v>- "MO or aii.leooo. Wli«i, l.« q„ol«, , p.„^„, of Boripiuri, I «m not boumj to „o.io« i, u„l«« h« .how. iu b«..i„K ujon th, que UoVuI.ur ».U he ma «. .be bold ..«,rti„n .U.t .hi. co„drm,u.ioa mel l.^^ would p,o,o nug.,i.ely by ,ho Mma e,id„„o. he would pr.HCho endl«« ,„.,ery of our Saviour. Let him ...emp, i. if b. da "'l ! no. ,a.ce««ry .o be i„ ,ha e(e,„d world .0 bo oondomiied for ih. Thi. . thecoDdemn...on (h«t light h.th conl. in.o .he worl.l .nd Z^ IoT.d,rkn... rather ,b.u ligh. b«o«u.o .heir deed, .re eil JwTu" now prove .h«. ,hop«..age in regard to the blo^hemy of rtu, Holy cZi teaclu,. the uit.m«e ..IvM-ot, of .» men, ia.Ui ofi.dl... Z^'°'* Mr. HARHL—The fir.t remarks made by my frienj in hi. la.t J^eoch her. ..e that I wanted him to provp a „ega,' e. I do no 'w«n hm to prove a negative .t all j bu. I want him to disprove what rav, a vancedn.favourof the pro,..i.io„ we are now 'di^^uJng Th'; end of the world, be made «. ellort to prov, meant tbeemf of the Jewah ugo, f™m the .imple f.ot that St. Paul .aid, u b„. „ow ha.h h! appeared . a the end of the world to put awav «n by the .^^^te ' h,m5«lf.'. Chr..t appeared in the end of the Jewish ige a. the Zud .ntaype a all the type, prefigured underthe law, .j' .h.> L «L' evidence that he w.ll appear by andby.he«oond time w.thout.in untl aalvu .onto tho«. who look for him. With reference .0 Matt, xii "hat ""j;:!.' , rTT«"''^' There is no getting by it. It re.er. d i t.y to the end of the;Go,pel dispensation. The .jood seed i. sown by t I Soaofmwj thobad.eed U «,wn by the devil , the place where it I sown « the world ; the harvest is .he end of the world, and the anl" Tnd toTf r K^ '.? «*""""'"''«** »» g-^f"" 'o«««''er fust the tare, and to bmd them in bundlesand bum them. Thi. we have shown will be the case wuh the wicked. They will be cost in.o a lake of fi I burning w.th brimstone which i, the iecond death. On this passage of holy ;f/".niyfriendha.madeno remarks worthy of my commemZ upon. He does not like to enter upon it, ha «eem^.afrafd todoso ? have gtven you the meaning of it, and if it is not a. I liave .a^ in the name of common «,nse let ray friend give u. the true meaAof It, Ihathjs opinion and mine may beploced .id* by aide beSRe pubhc. Thatthia could not take place until the end of the w«ld ia ^^'^^'^'^^'^''^^^^'o^misoyer, Myfriendha. om^ofthetaresandgoesrounJtowattorthem. I and all my minsteiial bre hren go round and scatter the good seed. The seed is not all sown «ndcoa6eqiieWly|heharve.l i« not come and will not come until the t ■ \ ., ■•6r- ^., Mtd hu baati til ■own, for th« harvaK U lh« «n«l oflh* world. Mj fiwiid atilt Wmim twttjr rrotn Rmv. ti., I| : f mw « grml whila ihron* •nd him that Mt on it, rrum wboM faoa th« earth and the haavan Had titay, and thara waa fMa/ wAirA <« to amt. Nniihifr ahall ihfi lilii«|i)iiimy i^nmnm (^ llolyCih.Hil b« for^Hrori iii ihia ag«^ih« Jtwwh, - nor in Ihn ^i. |» c«m#-lhB (lirUliM, which wa hnnw wm Ihaain lh« r.uure. | c«„«4 ■ •llrtw tny rri.»ri.l lo oMumn llml l«ii«,m^« ih,m futurrt i« n(w««MirUy fmuro n..w, wilhoul h |>l« of .vi.ltin.iv I Iniihi my Hrj,,mi,.,il ujhuI Um Woril WW, rt'n.liirflil '«worltI,»» mitMiit hum it limiioil jmriiNl - «« n«*t. On Iha milhority of Dr. Ailnm riarkn, an.<4 .Ma h hum, th«i v.ry |.I..h. wh«r« w« •l.ouM flrM look for II. (M .IrI ,101 t«|| ihom h« h«.l Hi.hI tho plui«« „f ih« n i.l TV, Ih. frnplr, ho M..I, (ten. JH., ,.,, Iff .. .. 1,..,,,,^ „,.,., ,,„, ,^,„; ^^ '■ th«||iteunml.hor, .T| muIo. «n.l »ho»o «,„,y |h,„«| „f ihoflol.ll IH«„ thy Imlly »h.U Iho., go «ll tho .l«y, of thy lif*. Ami I will pm •mnity Ujw««„ ,h«« »„.J ,h„ wo„u„. «,..| h„,w«„n thy «n„| „„,| L, •••I I H thall hruiM) iKy h««.l, «.,<< ihou ihalt bruiw bin ho«l •» No| on- woni of on.llo.. n.i*,y i„ dl th. puni.hm«nt for Iho flr^t lnin». KTOMum i not oTr«n rniwiry nl all aftor do.lh. Tho wor.l. woro " !« Iho d„y ihoii o«to.t Ihoriof Ihou .hull ,urtly di«." My fri.m.l »fflrmo,l lli.t I U..I I w.«,!,| provo ChriM orii.ao might toaoh them to act ^ t '■ ■ ■ '■,'.-' njho Mooi^ifcoii .tated ihtt ■• ^ hid agrvod not to mftnifoiit •"y *li^f ■PProNtl-n or di.«ppr.»balion, it would bo woll that all tho ftudionoo would give «aoh.po.k«r that ro.peoilul alloulion which Ihe imporUnce of iho aubject dennaadod. , Mr. Ha an..— Sooner than venlUM to touch R«y. xx. II my friond wont back to Gono.is Hi. j to comment on man's fall' and punishment; remember he ha« not Jookod at that passage as yet Ho would not lookatJuda. either. Jfol No! No I that is paaaed over; but it i. down in blaok and white. However hernadt. remark or two on Matthew xii. 12., to prove that all manner of ai« and Iniquity ahall be forgiven, but blasphemy against tbo Holy Ghost •hall not be forgiven, neither in tiris world nor in th« world to oome • and then went on to slate that this particular sin oould not be committed unde^ the Jewish dispensation, was committed under the Jewish dis- . ponsatioo, and that it would not be forgiven in the Jewish dispensation nor m the Chrialian. (flhUi, th,ca$e, then thoteioKo committed ' ' U wrt not forgiven in the Jemth diipenaatton, nor thechri$tiiZ. and there i» no evidence that they will be forgiven, at the end of ilC * Gospel dispensation, and as there will be no forgiveness after (be close of um«, the geaneipan has proved the very thing 1 contend (or o. m II § ., •:>.' (Jt '%ij W ■'*.. . '•M*'' .;v7 .• 4 'P, "Air manner of aia and iniquity shall be forgima, exeek Ithe ain againat the Holy Ghost, it ahall not be forgiven inthisWolld, nor in the vorld to come "—that ia, in this, or any other dis[ lioa. Would It not have been nonsepse to imagine that the Uokpel dispensation ij hfre a^liuded to, when be baa stated that the siifofuld not be comroitied;^«t all 1 U was nonsense to" bring forward ^uoh eridence, because it was no evidence at all. They have Uver Jorgiveness but they are in danger of eternal damnofton. Tikere u noforgivtnat, in tho future world, consequently thoet^tut fcfrg^ven here wiltnot be forgiven, and thoae notso forgiven will 6e e^dUtsljf jmnithed iti the world to come. My friend endeavoured tL illus- trate his position with dollars, wbjcli I bave no doubt yoU all appreciate. But let us not forget tho text, « He that shall bla«|phimo against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danglr of eternid damnation.'V So that his illustration is good for nothing. I My friend referred to the' parable ol the tares^ and then went on, to Ltate that God, a merciful God, will not perpetuate in eternity i the misery of his creatures. Does he charge upon my Father, whf) ^ in Heaven the perpetuation of iniquity in this world 7 Will to say 4bat God is the danse of all the misery and drunkenness and qlrime that efkist ? If misery cannot be perpetuated wifhout God, it is a cujrioua thjfl^ that God has forbidden sin, if be perpetuated it, s»> leaia to misery, and misery tmll be perpetuated so long as sin exists. L^ri. iii. 81 : The Lord will not cast off forever; this hasreference to the cap- hast tivily of the Jews. Psalinn Ixxx/i. 9: All nations whom thou ..«,. made shall come and worship before thee, Lord, and shall glorify thy name j this does not prove their salvation, for the Devil worshippedflSOO years ago and is not saved yet. My friend named this, but he di4 not Luote the Psalm, but quoted from Isaiah Ivii. 16 : « I will not contend forjever, neiUierwilH bealways wroth; for the spirit shotthTfail beforjame, and the souls which I have maHej" refeiring directly tojthose who are seeking the blessing of God with tears in their eyes, and with broken hearts are crying, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Hf will not contend for ever, though he be the high and lofty One thatlinha- biteth Eternity : this majr be known by reading the preceding ferae. My friend then quotes Prov.xi, 31— « The righteoue shall be recom- pensed in the earUij much more the wicked and tb^sinner.'j But this proves top much for him, and therefore proves nothing it all. >It proves the reward of the righteous in the edrth, as much asthe plnish^ inent of the wicked. If the wicked are punished here, that is nl proof that tliey wiU not be punif bed hereafter. What pro vee too much irove$ nothing ; so that my friend has made an effort tc fight a man olfstraw tad has done nothing. Acts iii, 21— « Whom th< > heavens must receive until the tin.e of the restitution of all things.*' 1 in quoting this part of the passage and keeping back the (other. admire his ingenuity, 7 115 . IWhat does :the yerse wy? ''And it shall come to pass, that >very soul which will not hear that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people." Let my friend bring forward a passage in which anyof the Prophets declare that all men will be holy and happy, and he will do something to sustain his cause. There is no such thioR to be foand m all the Prophets. I wUl now refer to another argument!- If my fnend^would clear up the tares and the wheat-I would offer him ajmothmg else. Malt, xxir, SO, 61-" The lord of that servant shall come m a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he IS not aware, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him hisnor- tion with the hypocrites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."' H«re It IS plainly staled the wicked are to h*ve their portion where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke xii, 46-" The lord of that servant will come m a day when he looketh not for him, and at a Ume when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will ap- pomt^ him his portion with the unbelievers." This is the doom of all those ungodly creatures. OHeb. vi, 7, >^« The earth, which dnnketh m the rain that cometh oft upon it, »n^* bringeth forth herbs meet for man/ by whom it is dressed, recei veth bFessings from 6od : But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is ni"h unto «yirsing, whose end is to be burned," This refers to the aposTates of the Apostle's day. This is the end of the ungodly ^ their end is to be turned. Now if the end of alt mankind was holiness and happiness, certainly their end would not be to be burned. 1 invite my friend's attention again to Judas Isqariot, to Rev. xx, U, and to Matt, xiii.34; the Parable of the Tares. * f Ufr. Laveil.— I can perceive from the course which my friend is pursuing that he feels he has a desperate work before him. H»en- . deavours to make an effect before this audience this afternoon by declamation and by bombast. This^he is welcome to do. My aim in this debate is not to produce an effect so much upon the audience present, as to produce an effect upon those who may read this debate /when published. I am discussing here to-day, and did yesterday / knowmg perfectly well that this debate would go out to the world,' and ,80 far as it has proceeded I feel confident that every unprejudiced mind that wUl peruse;it carefully, will see that the evidence presented here yesterday, fully sustained the point in debite. They will also see that my opponent has signally Jailed to establish the monstrously absurd . and unmerciful doctrine of unending suffering for a part of the creature* of God. In this view, I have not been so careful to produce an effect before this audience. My friend has again called my attentioo to the blasphemy against tfie Holy Ghost. The arguments I haye pioducerL arid the posiUons I have taken on this point are already recorded and, • will go before the world. With regard to the parable of the tares S-'WC^Bgg Pr^. 116 my Arguments are there also. My friend hM not told lu what he meant by the angela in the para^bJe of theHifea. He has not proved that the furnace of fire is in the immortal state, while I proved that it was in this life, that it was in Jerusalem, and the referenee to that is on leoord. My reply to the remarks of my friend in the case of Judas I am willing to allow to go without further addition. My friend made the bold asertion that there is no forgiveness in the future world, but he offered no proof. Yesterday he could not do it. He endeavours to hold up my illustration of the sin against the Holy Ghost to the ridioul* of the aodienee, but I am willing that those who read the debate should also on this point judge for themselves. He says the passage from Proverbs proves too much. Does the gentleman expect to work his passage into heaven and not receive it as a gift li^ God. Ho says the timesofthe restitution of all things is not to the point, unless I prove that allGod's holy prophets did speak of it. The inspired penman ' has said that all God's holy prophets did speak of it, and as this is in the scripture, it is decided testimony in the case. My next negative argument is in the case of Cain the murderer. Gen. iv. 10, 11 12: <*He said, what hast thou drae f the voice of thy brother's blood orieth wito me from the ground. And now thou art cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blo'bd from thy hand. When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength ; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.'* Not one woid is said about misery even in eternity, to say nothing about endless misery for tis g/eat offence. See the punishment of the \ antediluvians. Gen. vi. 6, 6/i " And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, And that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Then again— Gen. vii. 21— 23^ "All flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of lowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the ekrlh, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the bieath oflile, of a|l that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance w%« destroyed which was upon the face of the ground both maii and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl gf the heaven, and they were destroyed from the earth j and Noah only re- mained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Here is all we have of the punishnaent pronounced upon the antediluvians; not one word of misery in the eternal woild, to say nothing of the duration of that misery. We come now to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Gen« xix.SIf 25: « Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and he over- threw those cities, and all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and tiiat which grew upon the ground." Here is the sum and substance of the punishment pronounced upon the fiities of the plain. Not one woH ig said about misery in the future world, to say nothing about the duration of that misery. Exodus ix. 15, 16: ** Now I will stretch out my hand that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence ; ,and thou shalt be cut ofl from the earth. And in rtfry deed for this cause have I rai/ied thee up, for to show in thee my poweri and that my name may be declared throughout the earth." From the creation to the punitih- mont df the Egyptians here, we learn that 2500 years had pas8ed away from thttUae man was created to the time of the plagues and judgments ^^■'^Vflllrag&inst Egypt. Adam ]^ad received the retribution God Cain the murderer had been punished by God himself; .jp-^j^^-Jiluvians had been swept from the face of the earth. Sodom and t^morrah and the cities of the plain had been overthrown, and now is about to be fulfilled the tenfold vengeance of heaven on sinful Egypt. Yet not in all this is there the most distant allusion to endless misery. How is this to be accounted for, if endless misery is the truth of God? So you will find it to be the case in the punishment denounced against the children of Fsrael in the law given on Sinai. In the punishment of Ahab the Ammonite, andof the Jews in Jerusalem. Now I appeal to every enlightened person for an answer toihe question, — Why did God omit to annex the penalty of endless misery to the greatest crimes man cpmmited under the old dispensation, if it is the truth ol God ? The fact is, that inasmuch as there is not one word said upon it in all the punish- maalflgnfl icted b y iSod in the old Testament, it is not one of his truths ; and if my friend believes it is taUght, then let him produce the evi- dence. He has quoted a passage from Matthew which speaks of weep- ing and gnashing o^f teeth. But does it say this is to be in the immortal world ? Not one word of it. But my friend takes for granted the very point to be proved. Agai n he quoted,— Luke xx. ^6, without sayinig; one word about its bearing upon the point in debate. He also introduced Heb, vi. 8., because it is said there, << whose end is to be burned up." But it does not say that the end is endless death, or after death. It does hot say they are to be burned up in the immortal world. As my friend has the affirmative, I demand proof on these points. The Moderator here intimated that a collection would be taken up, to assist in defraying the expense of fitting up the ^eats. This having ' been accomplished the debate proceeded. Mr. HAMRis.-r-My attention was especially directed to the reapers mentioned in the 13lh chapter of Matthew, f spoke ot the angels of God, and I mean by that, those celestial beings that shall be revealed from heaven with Jesus Christ, when>he comes to take vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not Uie Gospel of our Lord Je^us Christ. The opponents of JesusXlhristWl then be punished with. eVer- lasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the dory of his power. My frjend oonsideradit monatrou* that I should state therd would be noforgiyenesa in the immortal world, I assigned reasons forit that could not be answered. I stated that at the end of time Christ would gire op the Kingdoirt to God the Father, and as there will be no Christ , there wil be no forgiveness in the future world, for God will be all in •II. Let this suffice. My friend said that I wanted to work my pas- iagetoglory. Notatalll The eacred penman says, « And shall cohST forth, they that have doni^good, unto the resurrection of life : they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation." « ThU is the work of God that ye believe 6a him.whom he halh sent. He that believeth Hatfrthe witness inhimself : Be thou faithfulunto death and I ^iU clre thee a crown of ]ife.'- This Refers to what man does, and as a reward for tbw faithfulness God gives eternal life. Again,-" When thou makest a feast call not thy net neighbors, lest they bid thee again and a recompen«ei,e made thee, but call the poor, the maimed, the lame and the bimd, lor they cannot recompense Iheejfor thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.»» Here is evidence thatthough we would TrTr T ?T?t'° ?"'y ^"' ^''^ '■''''**'"' ^« "^"Sht in the sight of God is that which will recommend us to his notice, and one of the causes why we will be' admitted to his glory for^6r. But it is through Christ alone that we receive salvation. And no man can do good unW he IS righteous ; but for this end God works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. My friend brought in the punishment of Cain, and of the antediluvians, and of the Sodomites. Ibmught up a paisa-e' this morning to show that it would be more tolerable for Sodom a^d Gomorrah than for them that saw the Saviour and heard the Gospel preached and remained impenitent. Here it isstated that the Sodomit^a will be brought forward yet to be punished for their sins, and ht Jude's ^ i^istle It is^tatedthat they are now suffering the Vengeance of eternal ftre./ Now for anothetpositiveargument. Matt. XXV, 31-41 <«Whea hii^KJ'^''nf*"""'"^'"*'^"8lory,aodall the holy angels with Is ^" T 5* f "^° '^" '^"""^ ^^ ^^ glo'y = And befoiB him ; -rta I be gathered alienations^ and he shall separate them onefrpm anoher,asashepherddividethA«8heepfjomth,goats: Andheshall ^t the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall pI'^T"??'™''" '*''''§'*' '^'*'"^' C*"°«' ye blessed of my *athergnherit the kingdom prepared for yoafrom the foundation of the world : For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat; I was thirsty.and ye g^ve me drmk ; 1 vvas a stranger and ye took me in : Naked, and ye clothed mej I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, W llnV^Zr ' ^T'''^' ""' ''^ '''''' "' '"^^'y' '^•"^g-ve tkee «^H r.T'T '""*'''" * '''*"««'' *«** '"^^ '*«« i°<^e' naked, and clothed //lee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prLn, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and .ay unt« I- / tkem, Terily I «iy unto yoti, Inaimuoh u ye *»»▼« dwie h tint* «ne of the least of theae my brethien, ye hate done it unto roe.'* Then tjhall he addreae tho«» dn the other l*nd ind say, « Depart from me, ye careed into everhwUng fiw, pr«jpared for the deril and hie 46th angels." And having addiessedthem in this way, he declares in th* verse, <* That'these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eterflaL" Hefe the righteous go into everlasting life, while at the same time the wicked are to depart into everlasting punishment, that this refers to the future, any raan can plainly see. The Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with shall be gathered all naUons. Then having placed them in their him. Then he shall sitoa the tlurone of his glory, and before him respective positions, he invites the sheep,-the children of the kingdom, and says unto thert '^Corae ye blessed of ray Father, mherit the kmg- dom pre{)aredfor you from the foundation ot the world." Then shall they answer him in the words I have already quoted. But how shaU it fare with themoB his lelt hand. lawful thought! Thenshallhe say unto them on his left hand, '^.dftpart ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Your punishment u to be with the deviland hi/angels. ** Fori was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink : I was a stranger, and ye took irte not in : naked, and ye clothed me not : sick, and m prison, and ye visUed me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying. Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, orastranger, or naked, or sick, or ta prison, and did not minister unto theet Then shall he answer Ahem, saying. Verily, I say unlo you. Inasmuch as ye did tf not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall ^ away into everlasting punishraeht;, but the righteous into life eterasa." This will be Ahe end of time, and this governs the meaning of the word here Uanslated everlasting. The word is equivocal, but it is here applied to the last event in Ume; and consequently it can- not mean «age, laaUng." Everlasang blessedness will be the reward of the righteous, while everlasting punishment will be the recompense of the wicked. It will not do to say that this refers to the derttuction of Jerusalem, beeause-lsL We see that at the destrucUon of Jerusalem Christ did fot sit on the throne of his glory,— suppose that were twisted to meaa his glorious throne,— any more than he did at the destruction of Babylon or any other calamity. Again, ta the second place, all nations were not gathered before him at the destruction of Jerusalem. Again their was no separation of the nation, at that time' Again* instead of the disciples being gathered to the oiahed position here referred to, every one of them had Bed to the mountains of J udea, so that instead of being gathered togethbr they vere all scattered abroad. These are reasons sufficient to show that this A.88 aotrete.^ and «imiot possibly refer to the destmction of Jerusalem. :j^^'- : ''X ■*s. W« aw awmbled here all the angels of the living God,-^rfl the hol» aAgel.. Jesu. surround«d by hi. holy angel, will .it ^ Ju,lae. and ,th.jn the wicked .hall bo punished and the righteou. rewarded Thi - 1 will bo an awfully «,lor,a time. Of awful lime ! A. bearing Bpon^the final ..ate,I will direct jrour attention now to Luke tyL . 26: "And beside. .11 thi., betwafen u.and you there i. a great gutti I - fixed, M that they which would pas. ftom hence tc^you cannot^ neilL ^' ,oanth,»ypa«.tou.» that would come from thence." In the conle.t — ' wehavoadaccoumgivenofacert4inrichmanthatfafed.uinptuou.lv everyday. But he died and was bu.ied, and in hell lifted up hi. evi ' ; bemg m toiment, and he saw Abraham afar oS and Lazarus in hii bo.Qm and the poor .tupid creature instead of disking mercy from God, ^ began to entreat Abraham for mercy. He «id. Father Abraham! ,\ have mercy on me, andwnd La«aru. to dip the tip of hi* finger kt^- water and cool my tongue, for I am in torment in this flame. But '' Abraham sa.d unto him, Between us and you tbate is a great gulf fixed th^e ,#. m passage. This e«,at gulf is th^>ustii of God, , which W.11 not allow them to pass. They could not pa« over the j^lice of ihe eternal. It will be impcible, the rich'man wanled Abraham to send Lazarus le hi. Father's house to warn his five breth- «n of the.r danger. Some person. «y thi. was a piou. prayer, tbathe did not Vrant them to .uiFer ashe wa. ^oing ; but it%vas . •elfish one. Some l^ersons think that if ihey go ti bell- they will have plenty of company. lam «Nry to think there is truth in thi. for ^road 1. the road that load.th to destruction, and many there be that fii^it. Nowweseethatthereisan impassable gulf between these jWb persons; the saint is in Abraham'^i bosom, the rich man being iu torment is in hell. The sainj of God suffered while on earth. If men weri^ Kinished all their sins deserve, poor Uzarus had the worst of it I ^ tell ,^; but now hisioy is complete, and thB rich man who enjoyed all the pleasure, and luxuries which this life can afibrd; and yet livid in tlie world without God on earth, ha. reached hi. fiual dooou I \a ^'•^*''f^^^y'*PP«"«''»'«P'«'y mentioned the pa^^^^ . VAd%m, and of Cain, the Sodomites, and «, forth ; Wnot one word of ^ evidence was adduced by him to show that thi* punishment extended tOthewmortal.tateof existence.- It is Aw 6««ii«r* ta prove thii He mentioned a passage to prove that there would be a recompenw at Ihe resurrection of the just, a«d he assumes that this resurieclivn is an ' / fmmortal resurrection which is efiected by thepower of God, and by no power of our own. I demand proof of this position. He has now brought forward Matt, xxv, 31, to the end of the chapter; but there is that the coming of Christ' took place eighteen cen- turies ago. I do^not deny that Christ is to reconcile all the world unto God at the conclusion of his kingdom ; but I maintain that the coming, in th<3 language I have quoted, took place more than eighteen centuries ago. In the passage my, friend quoted from Matt, xxv, you will find the same language. In the 34th verse of the previous chapter he says. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, titt all these things be fulfilled.** ' In the beginning, of the 24th chapter it is stated, that his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the Temple, while they sat on the Mount of Olives, and thdy put two ques- tions tohim, privately. *-Thi Mr. LAVKtL.-^I will first attend to the remarks which my friend has just made. He contends that the transfiguration represents the second coming of our Saviour. Allow me to say, that he is the only man In existence, or who has ever existed, who has taken that position, that the transfiguration of the Saviour on the Mount was hia coming to reward every man according to his works. This is something new. I will trouble him again with a quotation from his learned and excellent friend Dr. Clarke. He says, in his notes on Matthew xvi. 27— "This seems to refer to Dan. vii* 13, 14— « Behold one like the jSon of Man came— to the Ancient of Days'— and there was given I him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, anduations, and languages, should serve him.'" On the 28th verse, he says— «*This verse seems to confirm the above explanation, as our Lord evidently speaks of the establishment of the Christian Church, after the day of Pentecost, and its final triumph after Uie destruction of the Jewish polity; as if he had said, ' Somet of you, my disciples, shall continue to live till these things take |>lace."' Lightfoot says— •' Our Savioilr saith, 'There be some standing here, who shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in his lungdti^ m,*— whi;h must not be understood of his coming to the last judgment; for there k' '^■ I y m •Undinffthera that oooM lire Ulllhnt tim: Nor ought it. for ^1 ■ wu not one winainnuiBro m.. v«-.~. ...- "•» K to b« und«riUKKl of iho returwolion, h .oino would »•«»• iM ■ ^probably not only ■omo, but, in • m»nn«r, all thtl iiooil tharf , livod . " .HUlhottimo." Now, myfriwd baa .Ultid, th»t if I m.k« out the >)«M« that " Ihla generation" meana tha men of that time, and not lh« ■^%bolV race of mankind, I make out the point. My evidence ii this » " 7— there are four Oreek worda that are rendered, indif*criminatfly, " ««eneration,» « birth," and to forth. I. yi»««.», " bi/U*," " nativi- ty," three times. 2. yivvi««, the thing born or prwluM, ninetimee. ^ 8.'aivo6, "race," "•took," "kind," twenty-one /times ; and 4. Swift "»ge," "generation," «duraticib of 80 .years," forty-tWo I timet'.- And this r^y word aivi- i» the word h^ used in the 34th chiptor of Matthew; sothat it refers to that g.,. parable to them, sayinu," &c. But, .n any case, v^haleveritmaymean, weread of the destruction of that very Aetf Mentioned in the parable of the rich man and Lararus, "Ho^--". H-" I will ransom them from the power of the jrave. I w. 1 redeem , them from death. X) death,! will be thy plagues. Ograve.I w.1 ba . S^Jlstruction." Here we read of the •'-''-'^ « 't "Z^lT ^ W,.. The word here rendered " grave" is in the Greek of the L^fX. TX and this word f^-^e, - t^n^erei^ '^n ^^ep^M^ ^^^^^^ ■■■ Ln and Lazarus, and whether this be a fact or a parable t matte. , Tot for we^e told by God him-elf that this helUill be destroyed / S ^able, as a figure, refers to the Jews .ndGent^s II my frjend Ln takes it a. a fact, I am prepared to show the absurdity 0^^ ' dea and will iUostrule the words as a parablc^m^^wtll show rt. l t^Uyueyi^ negative argument I found. upo| the "..".on of. ' S Luke xix. io_" For the Son of Man is cone to seek aiKlM, 1 ^Lat^h^ loM." Not those that v>ai 6e M in etemitj^yu. I J^s.-misery.doctrine^entry will have it. J"*^" »^"-1^. Godsent not hft Son into the world to condemn the world ; but thrith. , ^rXlih him, might be sav^d."^ J.h« J^^ I^^T;;-: :.,.J«»a the world, but to save the world." 1 John, i*.^ 14 . Ana we ^ "Z^ Zuo testify that the Fathe. sent the Son^to be the Sjmoof S^ld.- lJohn^iii.5-«Aadyeknowth;jthewAmmfe^d ■ ".■/■. - \ m y: p tdrd Jmu* Chriat, who f «r« himafflf for our aint, that ho michi dalivor aa from ihia proaoni ovil woild, according to Iho will of (3od and our Falhor." Heb. iL 17— "Th«t ho mirht bo • moroiful and faiifajful High prioal, in thinga poiUining to Ooil, to mtko reoonoilialion ftfttho •Inaoflhopooplo." Aola ill. 3ft-'« Oo not to be fouitd in the Bible, He has stated that individuals will be excluded from the KingdOni of God ; but I do not believe that individuals wiU be excluded from the immor« tal bliss that is given in the resurrection, to all eternity. I believe that- every individual will come into this state of bliss on (Jospel terms. My friend has more than a dozen times trietl to saddle upqn me, that f do not believe in salvation on Gospel terms. 1 wOu]d express to all Ihose who differ from me that I do not believe in any other salvation than that which is obtained through the name of Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world. ' Universalists believe also that no man will be forced 1o go to heaven ; — but that all will be made "willing in the day of his power," and that His kingdom will exist both in time and in the future. ]vorld, for the Saviour rules in both places until He deliver up the^kingdom to God, when God shall be all in nil. My friend has used the expression " probationaryi nlaie,''* but the expression is not to be found in Scripture. It is as if he had said. If a man Joes not repent here, God will not give him another chance (oi repent,— not even, if he beg the privilege. "My God! My God! What can a man be but a monster, with the gospel of glad tidings ol great joy in his ' ^and, and yet stand up here and preach siich amonstrous idea. He has atlmitted, hcfwever, that the stofy of jthe rich man and Lazarus is -a parable. I agree with him. He has aiio stated that this jMirable is a figure oi something. That is correct. ' But perhaps he felt he could not, at least he did not, tell us what the parable was a figure of. I call upon him now tojilo this. , He has quoted it to pro\'e endless misery, but he did Hot tell us how it proved that doctrine. ' He did very well wiien lie gave the Universaiist view of the question. But I wpuld.beg of him to tell us what this parable' represents. He isays it represents something ; but the question is, H'hat does it represent ? lie haf not told us what he underfetdnds by Ihe phrase << the Kingdom of God." 1 maintain, from the Word of God, that "the Kingdom of God " is net meat and drink, but righteousness, and peage, and joy in the Holy Ghost. A man may be in the King<||n and cast out of it. A man tnay repent and become a Christian and enjoy" eternal life; but may Ipse that enjoyment by iaUing away. My friend has also glossed over my criticism on the Word << generation ;" he will not touch that point, I know^ as I proved from the meaning of ttie word translated "genera- tion,*^thar it cannot mraii anything else than a generation of men,— that is, the avefage life lime of ittan, which ia thirty years. I wiU giveyou, my friends, another argumentof a negative form. ^ The prpmisepf God •^ / * to Abraham puts the stamp of falsehood upon tlio ilocliiu« W cii.lle»* misery. The promise to Abraham, ami which was rciwaWd to Uaai^ and Jacob, you will fiiid in Gonosis xxvi, 3, 4-« Sojourn ji this land, and I will be with thoo, and will bless thoe, for unto thee ii d unto thy seed I will give all these countties ; and I will perform tht^toatU which I aware unto AbrAham thy father. And I will make thy 8a,|d to niulti^ ply as the stars of heaven/ and will givo,unt6 thy seed alljfhcso conn tries^and in thy aeod shall all the nations of liiocafth bo blt||sed."^ (Scii. xxviji, 16-« Thy seed shall be as the dust of the earlh,!dfd thou Miaii spreiid abroid to the west and to the cast^ and to the nortji and to the south; and in thee, and in thy seed, shall all ramilies ofjhc earth b6. ble^ed." Peter says in the Acts:^" In thoe shall all t|e kindreds o| the Jarth be blessed." This includes every son and dan Jiter of Adam, for tfie expressions are, "nations," «• families," '« kindreilfi," Oal. iii, B. And the Scripture> ftjreseeing that Guil vvouldjusfify llje heathen tlirouj,'h faiti, preached before the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shajl all nations of tho earth be blessed." The/wZ/J/weiiJof Ibis protniso is uticondilional. 1 admit, howflver,:tliat there are piomiscs that are conlitional. If men comply with certain conditions mentioi..cdi» them theV shall b^ rfewarded. If they neglect to comply with these cojidi- tioiii they shall be punished, for Ho will by no means clear thogudty. ^utTlhere are promises unconditional, and which depend not on man but on God for their fulfdment, ahd this promise made to Abiahum is one of them. The fulfilment/ of this promise does not depend upon mai's complying with any condition. If he believes that God will perform his promise to bless all the families of the earth, he will live by faith oil the Son of God.* Gal. iii, 9--" Then they who be o| faith arc blesked with faithful Abraham.*' Whert God fulfils the promise which is "the blessing'of all families of the earth." faith in that promise will be lost in the reality— the enjoyment of the blessing which is its fulfilment. For the believeif works by faith, and walks by faith, and lives by faith; and this faith in the universal promise of God, woik^ by loVe and purifies thehoart. It works by love because itisuniversal and not partial. Beeause a Gotl ot love will universally bless all ; it enables us to look forward to that glorious peiiod when love shall ' victorious throughout the wide universe of God. Another argument I will present on the negative side, is the destructioii ot Death. Hosea xiii, H— " I will ransom them from the power of the grave : I will redeem them from death : O death, I will be thy plagues ; grave, I ' will be thy destruotioh." . Here it is pfeinly declared that death will be d^troyed. My opponent wishes you to understand that death will bo endless. Whose word is to be believed? Anothetirgumentoh the negative side will be found in John xii, 32— « And I, ii I be liftejl up, WILL draw aU men unto me." I admit-there is a condition annexed to it, but the condition is already fulfilled. The condition was Christ's being lifted'bp. It baa bieen fulfilled* and if bis declaration is true, a// men will be drawn unto him. ^/^other argurjiient is taken fiom Acts '^ . I .WfT Ida iii, 20 21— «. And be ^Ivill aend Jesua Ohrisl, \vhich befote was preached imtd you, whom the heavenii must receive until the times of the reaUlu- : ' tioii of all things, which. Goil hath spoken by the mouth of all his koly prophets siace the world begaiu." These passages are plaiii and to the point." (_'■■ ■•'•.■..■■■, .:,' ■.v-:--r: ■■"; .v,- ■'...■■' .■; •■■ V---'^ '. '■ Mr. IIarrib— That my opponent does not1)plieve tliat CliriBl lias £nme in his glory is evident from the argument* he has ofliored in his last speech jVcls iii., 21: ^<\J^hom the heavens must "Ycceive. .1 *- until the timgs of the restitution of ajl things." lleMias thus proved ' , , *' hiiru'elf that he does not believe the irasitioii ho lias taken, or he has stated that he does not Believe the word ho fias just tea».l, far if Christ rehiained in Heaven until thu time of the restitutiou ' of all thtng!t,'he has not come yet for all thing^arc not restituted. At. thetime the writings were dniwu for this discussion at Mr. Gore's, , i put the questioirto Mi. Lavell, Do you as a denomination, continue^ to adminiator the sacrament of tlte Lord's Supper in your church, •f' ' he answereitsin the atTirmativo. This being the case, Jhe gentleman does u6l- believe that Christ has come for St. Piiql says in I Cor. x/., 36: "For as oft as ye eat tins bread and drink this cup ye do shbw forth the Lonl's death, till ho come," and of course if Christ / came at the destruction of Jerusalem the sacrament would be, there- ' fore, invalid e^er since, and I defy the gentleman to get out of it. My friend went on to say that the J^Lthgdom wi^' remaitt in a future state, thdt is the immortal state. This is directly contrary to what lie stated yes- y terflay. Ho may say that God is the same unchangeable beiiig, that I / admit, buittnc sinner jsma. He is not in the same position. He has ' 7 rui»'bis race* Ecclesiastes xi,, 10;." Whatsoever thy hand iindeth / to'do, do it with thy might ; for there is no worky^nor device, noir, knowledge, in the grave Whither thou gocst.'** My We'wl referred to the parable of>the^ rich man and t and murderers, am. idolaters, and all liars sliall have their part in the lake which buraeth with fire and brimstone; which tViA« 5eoDn({,death«" 'My friend y 133 through .h« law, but t|mn.,h the n^«m.esH of ^uU. t or .f JM> lo^lUm. but for^sabo to whofn.it Hhall ^/"^f '^f^'^^'^^Sow^ 7um tlal"rai.o.l no Jesus our Lor.) from lho^«i^ llthodgh he does ncXsay that he will 4Taw them to ghuy^ ' S^that time when ail a^ drawn unto liim, herwiU s^ tVhe^ ' riX^is « Come ye blessp^ of my Father inherit the kingdoin pf^l'fVomZi^^latio.* of theworldf' ^^:f^^ ■ .wicked "Depart ye cursed into everlasting hre prepaied lor the dcv.1 . \^ angi" I have t»Us day brought fbr^vard strong^ pos.U^^^ :;i • .contmvertible and uncontrov^rted destirnony;^that -'^-^^^ Jdd <(ome on the throne, \>f his g»«'y» «-^T^7/"' ^^"^ t*««W/ec«««jr,and th9i«>^ouldM noplaco foimd fpr ^^^ . Z tiiedead,Lll and great, would sland^ before ^Pd, a^^e^ks . would be opened, and another book wonli be opei^d ^^ Book of Life, and 4hat the dead wpuld be judged out of ^^^^ written in t4 books, acco«ling to their works. f^^J^Jf ^ passage also that there wotVld Be. a lake of 'fire «f ^rimstone^^^ '.• |m^niteuCwhen ■XJ 4 / u J- f t^iKl-'*'" 1-. tfumed up, vi/.,\vlieii limoen«l8. Then in iho-paruNu of iJiu wheat aiui' tarnt), I iuovotl Uial Uio liarvtwt wav tlio oiu.l of tliu Avorld, Crnin tho lad tliHtit Would iiut bo harvest iiiitfl tho scotiwiiH all howii/ It eotilil not rtJfer to to lh«i City of Jonisaloiii for this reason,— mv fripnd 'hm< not doiio 80\»in'» his lanrt yot, iuiil i hiivo not ilono sowing my wl^eat hi the naifto «l (Jo*!, ami i warn you to bowaro lest God tako tlioo away with his stroke : then a gtml raimom cannot dolivor Ihec 'Thou with togard to Matthew xxv, I showed ulainly that it was iinimssiblu that the ihings there .si>okcii of yould tako place at tho doslructlon ^ of Jerusalem: All nations WQro not thoro ; tho nHlionn were not scpa- \ rated, and none weruf'invited to ovorla«tin« life, and none eon8ii»nod ;V, to ovcrlasliiigf puiiishmenl. That imit of the i-hapter my friend has not touched, but thero it slaiids, aiiif it will be seen that the jroiitlernau eaiiiiot moot tho arj|Hnjcnls in it.. Tho Saviour said this Kospol was to bo proachod as a witiiesa uiilo nations before that lime. Was tho yosiwl preached to.all tho world before tho deskuctioii of Jerusalem? /say «o, and it has not yet boon prciiched to all tho worlil. Again j I l>ron;,'lit forward the parable of tho kinj?'^' sliall sit down with Abraham and Isaac anil Jacob in the kingdom of. heaven, bat the children of the kingdom shall'be cast out into outer dark- ° 11088.'* yVh0n Christ ahaiM come to judge lhevmrldin.righteotune$$ and when the wicked shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from thd glory of his power. Then we came to Revelations xviii., 8, to show that those whose names were not written in the Book of Life would be overcome. They thought they were safe. They dreamed of happiness ajtid future bliss} but in hell they will lift tip their eyes being in torments, and they must suffer in that unending state for ever afuTever. I also gave you the passage that refers to the man that would add unto the words >f the book df this Prophecy tied shall iidd tiiitohim'the plagues that the Book: „- which arei written m this book.'V Then I showed you pointedly and plainly tfiaf he whose name was riot written in the book of life was cast into a lake* of fire. I showed that this could not refer to anything in this life but everlasting fire. I showed that^tho panishment of the wicked was called everieutingpunuhment. But when God speaks of man in his probationary state, he speaks of days. He tells us that man that is born of a woman isjdf few days, and full of tiouble. His day is short but how lonj^ is punishment? I add no more. A- ,: ^ * ' .: ■ ■ 'jt ■ ■ ■ ' f y ■ ■:■.,■■■■.■ ■ ■, ■" '.''■•' ■ ■■■ ■-■'■,■.■ ■■.. " A t • ■.*■.■ ^ ■ ■ •■ ■;■ ■ ■'■■ " \ ' : liBi^___^ ' ** -■ V -' ■ ■ -■^' / A- .; .. ■■•:"--^-. '-^./-^ ^^- --185 ■:■■■■■;■. ^^■■■^ ■■•■'■K-'' :•.-: '-- * Mr. LAVi:u,.'~Whe»- an opponent iiiHj;^, debate criea out in loUit •ltd boisJurouH language t(f his hoar«r«, "0 ( l-warn you all to beware," and when ho says to them, " l»e not dacoived " and allgAiph expies- •lons, and Hlampa hfa foot anil Hawathe air with hi" han|pP understand it to mean that ho cries qmrlera, nuurttrB ! My opponTm h^atoil that I did not believe Christ hatl como at all, an'tl in doing so ho stated what ■in not true. 1 Btato«l that the heavens must receive Christ until th« restitution of all things ; but, I did not deny thoru is not another Coming ol our Saviour, when the dead in Christ shall rise first, then they Who are alive and remain shall meet their Lord. We do administer the sacra- ment iu our denomination, when we have an established chnroh; bnt l-do maintain that it is niil now bindirt": uiwn any individuaf; not can it bo proved from saored Scripture that it is biniling upon any individual in the present day. It was binding on the discipl]^ untd the Saviour nhould come in his glory, which coming took nlad when Christ came in ids glory at tlie destruction of Jerusalem. We believe however, it 18 -a help to a divine life. My opponent said in reference to «^ the parable of the rich man and Lm-autin, that the one was suflerinff in unending woe, the other enjoying unendjng happiness,, but gives no-. Sroof; and he takes the language the parabib is clothed m to o the figure. But the langdago the parablo is clothed in cannot bn taken to be iho figure; (or il you do, you underslawl it literally. -He quoted the passage in the Revelations where it is statoilthal ''the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable* and mur- ilerers, and whoreraongcjrs, and sorcerers, and idolatom, shall have, their part in the lake which bumeth witli fire and brimsfope, which is the second death. I have been asking mv uppoDeiit all (lav to prove that this was in the immortal* world, or whether death wa.s. endless of swallowed # of life, or whether it meant li state of endless misery in a future life. As yet 1 have no proof from him. In referring to^he promise made to Abraham, m/ op- ponent said t*at 'this promise is conditional. I ^rant that it 18, but the fnlfiiment of the condition rests not with man, but ' depends upon (itod, and he is faithful who p/omised. My opponent brought forward a passage to prove that the children bf/the promise ' ■ were children of Got! by faitb. , I aJioit this. These are children of - Gpod ; that he is the father of all npiritn, and that no circumstance or conditioh of the obild cafi destroy that relation which exist**, bec^UHH it is a natural one. 4th. 1 also bused un argument on the Luve of Qixl. I proved that Clod's name and his very nature is love, and that it was impossiblt* from the nature of his character that he would inflict misery unendhit; on any of the creatures he has made. 5th. I based a|iother argument upon the foreknowledge of Gon the justice of God. t proved that this justioo required the punishment of sin, .but that thai punishment could not be endless, and that one great object of his justice was the reconciliation of Win (creatures, and bringing them all toobedienoe. Universal justicie demands universal right. 7th. Another argtiment 1 based upon the Mercy of God. I proved that Gel was''' ^ merciful, and that his mercy could not allow an individual of the human 'race to sufier to 9,\l elernitv. 8th. I also founded an argument on the Pleasure of God> i proved that it was his pleasure |h{at all his creatures should be made holy and happv. 9th. I proved also from the Will uf God, that God united the salvation of' all .men, »nd that His wilt would be accomplished. 10th. I proved that it w^s the purpose of God to save all men, and that what he purposed he would do. 1 Itli. 1 based an argument upon th/t Mission of Christ. { proved that Christ undertook the salvation of the wtiole world, jind that the devil — whatever he may be— and his works will all be destroyed ; for God has certainly, said that they would be. 12fh. I also based an argument upon the Promises of God romb of which are con- ditional, but tho fullilment of the promise he made' to Abraham, and other promises made, were unconditional so far as man was concerned. And -anoW I' have but two minutes left to close this debate. I would say to this audience that I feel glad that I have had an opportunity of stantling up here and advocatmg the glorious doctrine of the salvation of the whole hmnhan family, and on Gospel grounds too; and I also feel glad that I have beeu enabled to starM up heite to confront the monstrous and unmerciful, and unjust doctrine ol endless misery said to be in the immortial 8tat& of existence. I conceive that my opponent has most signally faileJin proving liis pro- position. I feel glad that this debatn has been reported by an efficient shorthand writer, and that the Report shall go .o the world to sliow the puerile attempts which are made to defeat the Missioii of the Saviour of the World. Gentlemeii, Moderators, — ^I thank you for the dignified manner in which you have presided over this discussion. 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