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CAMPP.IOLL moN od the lTo;ise into Coinmittt'o of tlie AVliole, on Bill (37) "All Act rosptrtin^f tlio Canaduui Pacific Railway." iron. Siv ALliX. CAMPBELJ. it.ovt-d tlie ado])tion ot the first clau.st.'. The SPEAKER {^[1: MAri'itEiisox) — [ desire to adilress the House upon this ([ue.stion. It was my intention to have done so on the socontl r(!adin;^ of the Rill, ])ut 1 did not wish to take the floor from any otlier gentleman, and, by the closii of the de- bate, the evening was so far advaiieed that I thoutrht 1 v»-ou!d Lesl; consult the convenienoe of hon. gentlemen if I j)Ost- })0ned what I had to say to this stage of the Bill ; and while it is rather contrary to rnle to discuss the })rinci[)le of a bill It was the intention of tl at Government to use tlie water stretches between Lake Superior and the Red River, and »vdth that view they commenced the Fort FrAnces Lock. After a time tliat work was dis- continued. The construction of the Lake Superior and Red River section Jiowever was continued, and its two ends, each of 113 miles, were placed under coutvact. Hon. Gientlemen. such was the state ot the Canadian Pacific Railway when the present Governinent succeeded to powei-. and were retjnired to frame a jiolicy for that great enterprise. They deteruiiued to cancel the contract for the (ieorgian Ray Ri'ancii. They })rocceded with the Pembina Branch, which had beeji ])laced under contra^^t by their predecessors, but on whicli, after {Ik; roadbed liad been constructed, the work was sus[)en(UHi because Hie American line had not been l»roug]it up to the boun-lury, and therefort; 31r. 3Iacke;izie dirl not S'..'e lit to finish that branch until there shoidd ije the prosjiect of a counectiori with the lines to the south. Whether good policy or not, the work was snsi)ended, but was re- sumed after a time, and was finished by the present Government. This Govern- ment also felt bound to com- plete the section between Lake Superior and Red liiver, and they accordingly placed the middle section of 185 miles under contract. They also i)laced under contract a section of 12G miles in British Golunibia. In their opinion the country was committed and pledged to proceed with the railway in that Province — a work to which the "cry troth of thecountiy was plighted at / '♦ the tim(> LIrilisli (Juliiiuliiii ciitiTcil tlit) Dominioii ;iiiul wUvn Mv. JMiickcnzio huc- coocloil to power lio onhorod into no;,'oUii- tions with British (Vihiiiil)i,i which ro- Hiiltf'd ill tli(! adoption of" what is known as the CiirniU von Tt-rnis ; and his (!o\-- t'lnnu'ut, 1 may say,utlixed anew tho soai of Canada to tin; tivaty with British Uo- hindtia. Th*.' woi'ks wliicli arc construct- ed and un(h'r contract l)t'twe(;ii iiake Snpo- rioi- and tho J led lliver are cstiunitcid to cost, wlicnconiph'tcd, ^U 5,018,000, oxchi- sivc ot'survcys and ('(]ui[)ni('nt. TIki section placod un(hjr contract in British Cohmibia — h't on tcn(h!rs calh'd for by Mr. Mac- kenzie's Governnicnt — is estimated to cost!ii'7,'-*r)0,000. jMiscellaneous items may lio added to the extent of !ii!l,00O,O0(», vvluch will niiike these works — that is the I'endiiria ijranch, tlie Lake Superior and J!ed Biver Section, and the Biitish Coluuihia Section — cov;t .^21,000,000, excla^ivo of ecpiipment and surveys. Now, lion, gentlemen, tliis is a \i'ry large eX[iunditure, and it is an expenditure to which the present Clovevnrneut}, wj'.en It succeeded to power, found tlu! country irrevocably committed, and it Ijecame their duty to see Jiow it could be utilized — how it co(dd bo turned to [)rolitaltle account for tho country. Thc! section between Lake Superior and Bed Biver was of course constructed for the purpose of alfordingau outlet for tlio trade oi the prairies, and a way in tor settlers, and for giving improved communication gen- erally between this portion of Canada and our North -West Territorie.s. But while tliat section was proceeded with no progress was made with the railway across the i)rairi(!S tliemselves, so that, while a very large expendi- ture had been incurred upon it by our predecessors, no progress had been made by them in opening up ,vn\ill Ik? inade(piate, and the tiaile e\cn dur- ing tlie siunmer months will be lai'ge- ly divertt'd to the ITnited States I'outes, and away altogether from Canailiau channels. ^Vhile Jiake Sui>erior is open that route will be useful fi/'' the ])Urjiose of carrying immigrants into the Nortli- West, but it will afford a very inadequate sei'vJco. For these rciasons, hon. gentle- men, the completion of what I shall call the etistern sectio'i — tliat is, the section from the Red Biver to Callendar Station, on the Canada Central Bvailway, near Lake Nipissing — became a national necessity. It lias been admitted by all v^'ho have taken i»art in the debate in this House, that the extension of tlie lino across the prairies was a matter of pri- mary necessity, and one of the f'rst tilings done by the present Government was to commence to build the railway over the prairies. Second only to that in im- portance at this late day is the comi)le- tion of the eastein section, commenced by our predecessors, and of which 410 i.dles will be finished next year. It became a very important question whether these Avorks should bo carried on by the Government or througli the instramentality of a company. If con- structed by the Government, they must be paid for wholly in cash. The cost of these works — that is of the line from Bed River to Kamloojis, and from Lake SMjx'iidi' to Ii!\l;{! Ni])i.ssiii;,' - - wotild i\ot li!iv(( been loss than i^r)(),OU(»,OU(). I suy from Hod Hivor to K;iiiilu()])S beoiiuso I liavo no doubt wliatovor, and I lun suro lion. i,'(Mitl(!in( .. will nn! an c'X[)ondituro of .'S5(),()U(),0(JO Jiad to bo cont(.Miiplatod ; and I say attain, that it bocanit^ the duty of the (-lovernmont to consider whether the railway f^hould be constructed as a Uoveiiunent woi'Ic and paid for wlioiiy out of tla; pulilie cx- che(]uei, paitl for wholly out of tin; [jocU- cty of the present taxi)ayers of tho Dominion, or whether tlu-y should iuvite the eo-o[)eration of a eom[)any who might be induced to take part of tho consiilcra- tiou — part of tho cost of constructing ajid oporatint^ the railway — in land. Now, tins is tho shape in wliich t!ie '[ues- tion presented itself to my mind, and I say here, that 1 liad no hesitation what- ever in deciding which I considorel most for the advantage of this country. It wouhl have been a most serious respon- sibility to liave entered upon an expen- diture which ntust have amounted to ru)t less thari i?50,000,000 in a com[)arativ(dy few years. It would have involved a very large addition ta tho Doudniou debt, which already has attained to large proportions. It would have placeil a lieavier burden than would have been judicious u])on the taxpayers of the country. Well, lion, geutlemen, the Government resolved to seek the assis- tance of a company which would take part of the consideration in land for building the Pacific Railway and for opei'ating it for ten years after its com- pletion. I believe, lion, gentlemen, that an overwhelming majority of the people of this country are of the opinion now that that decision was a w'ise one. 1 oelieve that in a very few years those wlio think otherwise now will entertain different views ; that they will agree then with those from wdiom they dilfer at this moment. The Canadian Pacific Railway will be largely for the benefit of posterity. It will take ten years to com- plete it, and the country will necessarily take a long time to settle ; so that it is perfectly true to say that it is mainly foi- the UmuIU of posterity. T was anxious, therefore, that as large a portion as possible of its oust should be east upon |)ost(!rity. Wliat(!Vor cash is paid out of the oXrlio(|Uer of this cuuiitiy is withdrawn directly from the eoll'ois of the taxi»ayers, anil from (iiuployment in the industries of tlu' Dominion. The operat- ing of this railway is guaiantecd for twenty years by the eoiitrait, ami lu) ouh pretends to .-ay that for some years tJuf operating will not involve loss. I 'lopo, for tlu) sake of thc> contnictors and for the sake of the country, that that loss may bo small. If it shculd be small, tlnit fact wdll ')3 the best evidence we could havt! that the countiy willlia\i! beiieiited enormously from tho construction of the railway. B>it wh(!tlier the amount be Lirge or small it will have to be bume i)y the Syndicate or (Jompany, and not by the taxpayers, as v,-ould Ite the case if the I'ailway won' to be built and oper- ated by the (Jovornment. The ell'ect of the Government arrangement is to pay for twenty-five millions of dollars' wortli with laml which has nt> present vaiuo, and to save the tax[)ayers 825,()0t),()Ut> of money. The Syndicate has under- taken to ))erforin work that will cost ;,';;oO,000,0()t), for which the country will only i)ay .S:^-">,OUO,(J()0 in cash. One half the cost will be paid in land which has no present value, aiul which will derive its future value from the expenditure of the Syndicate. Their e.>.penditure will also confer gieat value on the Government land and cause it to yield much more than enough to recou}) the whole expenditure of the counti-y. This contract has been compared w4th jirevious contracts and previous otlers so frequently and ably that I shall allude to tlu;m in the briefest possible way. The contra'jt which is now upon our table ])ro]toses to give the works that have cost the count y $28,- 000,000, and a cash subsidy ot }:'25,000,- 000 (in all 853,000,000), ami a land subsidy of 25,00t),000 acres, which for the puri)Ose ot calculation I shall estimate at $1 per acre, representing ."J^S, 000, 000, and making altogether 878,000,000. The Allan contract was for $30,000,000 casl), and 54,700,000 acres, including 4,700,000 acres for branches, which at the same rate of $1 per acre, gives 854,700,- 000, making altogether 884,700,000. Mr. IMackenzie's terms were, cash 810,- y / G fiOO |i( r iiiili', wliicli, calliiiif tlio distaiirc J.T-ti mill's, tliiH would unioiiiit lo -S-T,- LMU),()()f . I «'stiiiial<> tim siiiii cm wliidi Mr. Miukcii/.ic would Imvo \»'v\i williiii^ to |iiiy 1^ l"'!' tMMit. |H'r iiiiiiuiii I'ur L'o yt'iirs lis ('([ual to ><."), 000 pi'i' mile, Of ru;i:t)3ii,0(l(), tMakiii!,' ili.« rash .siil>sidy ^:tO,S|)O.OtiO, 'I'licn tluf land siilisidy of L'O.OOO mcics \n-y iiiTc, or o l.oL'O/iOO aoi'CM for the ciitii'c dis- t;uic(>, wliicii, !it Si per iiuff, would aiuouiii toS,') |,r»"JO,000,iiiakiiitrallofj[etli('r in .Msh and himl, i^;!»r),4 10,U0<». It will lie seen from tlioso tij^Ufes tliat tin* tiTius oircicd iiy tilt) lato (lovoftiiiifnt wt-fo really inoi-c liheral than tlu; contract made with Sii; lhii,di Mian, and thoi'o is a voiy olivious reason f.)i that. The Allan con- tract, which has Ihh'H spoken of hefc and fl.sewhci'(* as a niod(d conti'act,i'caily canu! to uolhini^. Sir Ifnyh Allaix and his associates in the uiadcrtakinuf did not .succeed in lloatin^ tho company. 'Vho presumiilion is that it fell thronuli he- cause the terms whicii Sir litigh oh- laincd irom the (»overiimenfc were not sutlicicutly li'.jeral in the opinion ot' the ca[)italists of Kuro])o ; and Mr. Maekeii- /ie mi;>-ht feel justified in offering 1 setter terms, so that if ,i con)paiiy eiiteied into contract with his tiovernnient, tliat com- [lany would bo pi-etty certain to succeed. Initit will bo seen that the most I'avor- al'le of all the contracts which have l)een concluded or olferod is the one which now lies upon our table — estimating the land, as T have done in evei-y instance, at ><\ per aci'o — and the higher the price put u])ou the land the more favorably will this contract compare with the other,-;. Now let us see what this conn- try is I'eally olh^'ing to give to the Syndicate under this contract. It is proposed to give in lands and nicney .^.j,''),0{)0.()()0 ; a^ iMiiing the whole distance from Jiake Nip>^,siiig to the Pacitic Ocean at 2,7:20 miles , tiu cash sulisidy amounts to oidy !!>11),443 |>er nulc for the whole distance, including what has been expended by the (Jovern- ment ; tlie land sul)sidy, on the same basis, will give 9,170 acres, making alto- gether — estimating the land at i^l per acre — §28,713 per mile. Hon. air. SCOTT — But the Syndi- cate do not build the whole of it. The SPEAKER, — T am showingwhat the whole cost of the road will be. The cost of til" poi-tioiis built and to Im» built by the (io\eiinont will bo S-jS,()O0,O0(l, and tint Syndicate i\ re to ric(^ivo for the portion that tln'V uro to build l^*J.'"),00u,00(>. Th(* two togethei- make .^.');>,0(»0,000, so that the expeiKli- ture in cash by the country- and (luit, is th(i point 1 want to make ch^ir will only l»e $l!>,143 per ndle. Now, thero are very few gentlemen in this Ifouso who ha\e not, at one time or anotlmr, machi estimates for theniselves of what this road would prtjbably cost. 'I'hey have seen many estimates, somtsof thetn made In' the (rovernnient engineers, and they liiivc made their own calculations. Now, I ask them to endivivor to recall thes(« estimates, luul to say if tlioy ever put the cost as low .as it isumler thisconiraet - — namely, ?^''l!t,41-3 in cash, siipplemi;uted by a subsidy in land of l>,17t) Mcres per mile / lion. I\fr. llAYTIfOUNE -That includes the wliolo line. TJi<> SPE AKiai— Yes, the whole line of 2,720 miles, the whole lino ."•.■on) l/ik > Nipissing to the P.icllic Ocoiin, including ihe giiaraniiMj foi* ojierating the road for ten years .after it;s conipktiou — ■ that {;> for twenty years from now. J may ob- serve that each section of railway as it is completed is to be run ; th:it is jiartof the guarantee. iloii. Ui: DEV^EU-Oi" course you do not include surveys in that estimate 'I The SPEAKER — No. The co?i of surveys has been withdr.nvn from this, because it included the siii'vey of the countiy for other purposes. 'I'he Syn;li- cate have to build 2,000 miles, and they are to receive for that in cash }i?2r),000,- Ot'O, aiul T must remind the House that out ol' this l<2r),00{),000 they will have to cxixm.l -32,500,000 to equii) the portions of the road built and building bv the Cxoverumcint ; so that the real cash sub- sidy which they are to receive as applicable to the buildingof the road is onlv $22,500,- 000 ; or, on the 2,000 miles, ^l 1,250 per mile. The Government has agreed to ])ay tiie Syndicate §25,000,000, and it is that amount, and that amount only, tliat will be a burden on the taxpayers of the countrv. Now, I a.sk lion, gentlemen, considering the work to be done, con- HiiltM'iii^ tlm (u")') tnilos of i-.\il\v;\y '.vliirh tlu! Syriilu;iit(' iin^ lo l)iiil(l iiortli uC i.iik(< Superior, mnl the i»crti(/n of tlm road that flu'V iir(( to constnu'l in [\\v Itodcy Mouiit!iiii5t, nni'f'li('ii(l will Ik- foiiinl ii"t to lit' iniitt^ so U'^ht as hoiuo j^fiitlcnii'!) jippcar fo su'iposf), coiisidcr- iiii' all tlic^it*, and the ^'iiaraiilco to nm the railwiiy iiftor it is coiiiplL'tcd — I ask it thd cash sultsidy is oxw.shIvo ? Ou tlio contrary, is it not uti ania:'.in£;ly niodtM'atc oni! < Is it not so moderate tliat when it comes to Ik; lo()kcd lit Ci're- ftdly and without parliz:ui findiiiL'. ii will Mstonisli the coiMitiy t Is thero an lion, •gentleman iu tliis J Fouse wiio, it" such a a proposal had heeu laid upon our tabh' three <»r four years aijo. would not have lieen del i Indited / J. can fancy ihe delight with which my lion, friend the ex-Secre- tary of Statu would have laid .su(di a contract upon our table : rhe rredit he wonhl liavt^ t.ikiMi. and would have justly taken, to his Ciovernmeiit for ]iavin;j; niailo so fivor.'ible an arranijenient ; and credit, is duo to the present < lovernmcnt for havintj niudo it. Tho land subsidy is reallv of no jircsent value, and that is the fair and the only fairway of lookin;^ at it. 'J'he land v.ill undoubtedly become of i^reat valiu', t>ut it will b" liy the exjiendituro of cjipital l>y this Syndicate. The land can bo of no value until railways aro constructed throu,c,di it, and traverse it in more than one direction. Tt will not b(( en i<,di to build the Canadian J'acilio Uailway across the prairies ; that will not make the whole of the land valuable. The Company must build branches, to inter- sect t.he country lari^cdy vith railways, to yive full value to their lands, and th(>y are to receive no subsidy, either in money or land, towai-ds oonstructiuf,' branch lines. Not only must they construct railways, but they must also organize a couipreJiensivo vstem of imnngration. 'J'he\ nist covi I the United ivingdom and I • countries -f Europe with a net- work if emu»ratr(vn agencies. Their success '11 depend ''..-.on their bringing immigrai •< in streat numbers on to tlie North A\t',s' Territorv and peopling it rap'dly. J that din^t ion they nmst use their best energies — an 1 rhey are gen- tlemen 01 great energy. They are not only ene' getic, but are po.ssessed of great resonrre-i in capital, in inl!uei;oe, and in their connections in Kugland, in France, and also in (Jerniany, whence so numy immigrants come. We have their as surance, and I believe they are Kinecre, that they will devote their best energies to biinging immigraiits to this country ; it will be their interest to do HO. Unless they get the prairies largely peopled before the easteiu Hiciion is opened th<> operating of the lailway will lie II heaviet undertaking than it wordd be undi'r diflerent ciicumstanccs, nnd they are fully aware of that. 1 think the («overiiment aiid the country will (Icri\o the greatest advantage fro!ii the co-operation and assistance which tl o Syndicate will render m |)(;opIing that country, What they niay do to cnhani'c the value of their lands will also enhann' tho value of the public lands. I am aware that some gentlemeu now set a fabulous value on laml in the North- West. One lion, gentleman (.^^l•. Jlei;- sor) said that from' ').(M) to 8,0(iO acres ]M'V mile would lie an ample subsidy. Then the hon. Senator from Jlamilto.i set a very high value on it, and not 0!i!y did that, but converted it into cash .\', his own vahiatien, and treated it ]iiacli eilly us a cash jiaymeutto the Syn(licat'\ ( if course it will be a long time liefore the Syndicate can g(?t such a. price as the hon. ge-ntleman named for their lands. They will have but ;• •>mpara- tively snvall residue of land • n tl'^'t. time comes Then the ex-Secretaiy of State plac(;d the cost of the rtiail ai an enormous .sum ; if 1 under.stcod him aright he spreail the e.Npenditinn* over 20 years, ami called it .Sl58,r)^:0,00tt and L':i,0(JU,UUO acres of land. ilon. Mr. SCOTT — The cost of tho road ] The SPKAKFJl— I nnder.stood the hon. gentleman to say it. was to cost tiiut. Hon. My. SnOTT - L put the .abso- lute cost of building the road at 88-1,- OOt), (]()() ; the cost to the Government would depend entirely on what the land is vahied at. In our calculation I valued it at 83 per acre. I. made a calculation of what it would cost if the Syndicate elected to Imild it under Section II. — which X will hand to the hon- gentleman if he wishes. /. 8 The SPEAKER — T]in cisli sub- fiidy may ha paid, as {irovklcd for, on tliG completion of eacli sec- tion of twenty miles of railway, or it may lie paid in the form of interest coupons; but no matter in which form, all that will bo paid is .$20,000,000, or the c([uivalent of that sum according ro actuorial calcu- lation, in interest cou})Oiis. The total subsidies arc .$25,000,000 in cash and 25,000,000 acres of land. Then the hon. gentleman from Ottawa (iMi-. Scott) spoko of the GoN'ei'nmont being the bankers of the Syndicate. That is not correct. It may be for the convenience of the Syndi-cate to borrow under sub-section d of tlie contract considerable amounts of capital when the money market is favorable for th.'ii- doing so. The (Tovernmeut is willing to takt- .*?25, 000,000 at 4 i)er cent, interest and lo hold it until the Corai)nay earn it from time to time ; but the Government only agree to do that because they S(;e where they can use the money to advantage The Government Avill not lose the interest on that sum, or on any ])art of it ; it will bcMpplied to liquidating other obligations which are now bearing interest at 5 and f) ])er cent, per annum. Between now and tlie 1st of January 1885, .$12,000,- 000 of the obligations of the Dominion will n^atui'e. lion. Mr. SCOTT — What I contended Avas that, if it were known that these ex- vraordinarv facilities were offered, other contractors would have tendered to do the work for even less. The SPEAKER — But the hon. gen- tleman will see that the Syndicate could have deposited the money with tlie banks. Hon. Mr. SCOT I— My point is this: that the bonds largely increa.se in value V>y the Government ]»aying the interest on those coupons. It is inhnitely better security than if the Syndicate were pay- ing the interest. The SPEAKER — If the payments should not be made in that form, chey would be made in cash as each tsventy miles section of railway is constructed. The Syndicate would be able to represent this to the capitalists of the world, and the Government of Canada wouhl con- firm the statement, so that the credit of the Company would not be affected by this particular mode of payment. Now, hon. gentlemen, a good deal has been said about land monopoly. I really have no fears u\)on that head. I believe the Syn- dicate will understand it to be to their in- terest to have the lands (piickly settled. To do th'.t they must oiler them at low prices, wid I am jirei)ared to hear of them ollering lands at lower jtrices than any that have be mi named in this House. I shall not be sui'[)rised if thev offer large (juantities of these lands free to actual s(^ttlers. I feel ([uite certain that they will understand thrjir interest sufh- ci(!iitly to do all in their jjower to induce settlf'i's to enter upon tlnnr lands. One year's traffic of the i)roducts of a farm, cultivated by an ordinary family, would yield more to them than the ])rice they may receive for the land at the early sales, and I mav sav that some of the gentlemen interested in this Svndicate have shown elsewhere — in Minnesota — that they understand this policy. The hon. Senator from Ottawa (Mr. Scott) said that he set a higiior value on the land than heretofore, because we were discovering that it is more valuable than we had hitherto suj)posed. That is true, l.)ut only because there is a prospect of the laud being oi)ened up by the very moans we are now providing. But let us withdraw the pro.spects of early rail- ways from th;-*^i country, and what would lantl there be worth ? It would be worth no more than it was lii'teen years ago, when it w.is, of course, altogether nnsale able. llor,. Mr. SCOTT — T am quite aware of that. The SPEAKER — But, hon. gentle- men, we are not only discovering that our land is more valuable, but we an- also art of our Xorth-West Territory. The same athis shows that tlie cereal bearinj^ lands amount to GOO,- 000,000 acres, of which the (luantity to be given to the Syndicate is in area only one twenty-fourth jnirt. This statement will perha])s give an idea of what wo are giving to this Syndicate and what we are reserving. \ would not be willing to give to a company anj-thing a[)]iroach- ing to a controlling interest in our lands ill the North- West. i do not think that a thirty sixth or a twenty- fourth part is objectionable. When yc u come to twice that quantity, it might be open to (juestion ; but, certainly, the quantity we are giving is not ojien to any objection of that kind. The question of exemption from taxation, duty, etc., has been sulliciently explained by hon. gen- tlemen Nvho have taken ])art before me in this debate, and I shall not refer to it further than to say that whatever the money value of these may be is ko much saved to the present taxi)ayers of the Do- minion, and I think they are those whose interests we ought cliielly to consiihn-. The only contribution to its cost by the people who will enjoy the benefits to be dei'ived from this railway in future times will le the small aniount of taxes whicii they will be prohibited fi-om collecting upon the property of this Company. As for the taxes u^ton the lands, my hon. friend the ]\Iinister of inland lif:venue showed, the other evening, that in all probability the exemi)tion would have been as valuable or more valuable under the IMackenzie terms than they aie under this contract. Wliy shouhL not those who are to jieople the North-West contribute in the future towards the cost of this railway 1 Do not the i)rovinces and the nmnicipalities in the settled por- tions of Canada contribute largely to- wards the construction of railways ? Was not a bonus granted by this very city a few weeks ago in support of a railway to Toronto — I think the amount was $200,000 I That is an instance of the liberality with which municii)alities con- tribute to railwavs throughout this conn- try. All the western cities, and many of the rural municipalities, have contributed in the same way, and very largely in proportion to their means. "With rt!sj)ect to the standard I )U'ed not say anything. IMy hon. friend from IMontai- ville (Mr. DeBoucherville) showed that tiie standard is really a high oiu-. My hon. friend the leader of the < >[» position (Mr. Scott) .said that he had no apprehension on that score. He is quiti' right, lie understantls what is foi' the interest of the Com})any ; and ho takes it for granted that they will do what is for their own interests. The railway, ]. pre- sume, will l)e o^iened as soon as it can b(; safely run for traffic, but its construction will not then be com[ilete. It will bo as with all railways — especially western lail'y'iv'-; — the construction Avill go on until tho line is made lirst-class. Tht- next point to come to is a vei\' im})Ortant one, and one that has naturally interested the country very much : that is the question of niono[)oly with respect to traffic. Now, hon. gentlemen, instead of tliis Com])any having a monopoly, the con- struction of the Canadian Paeitu; liail- way will render monopoly impossible. It is for the pur])Ose of securing the trade of the North- West to Canada that this railway is Ix'ing built, and the tarill ot I'ates is to Ui subject to the approval of the Governor in council If it were not to b(! constructed, the LTnited States lines would have a monopoly of our trade. The construction of our railway will prevenv this. T re).)eat that the Canadian Pacitic Ilailway, instead of being a monopoly, as far as traffic is concerned, will really be the means of preventing any mcuo[)- oly being established. Another fact that has an important bearing upon the mon- opoly question is that it will be for the interest of the Company to charge the lowest possible rates, because low rates of freight will no more to attract immi- grants to their lands than cen a low price for land. The piice of laml — the purchase money — - of one or two dollars an acre has ojily to be paid once, but the transportation of the products of the lami will be unending, and if the rates ot transport arc higher than the rates i'ov similar distances in the United States, a clieck will bo given to settlement, and the success of the (>)mpany will be ieo[»ar- dizeted to the Straits ('f Mackinaw and Detroit, that lin(^ will lie a fonnidable competitor. L^p tw tliis time it has had, during the suui- liier season, ria Dulutli, almost a monop- oly of the rail and water borne tratlic. Tlie all-rail traffic tliroughont the year has necessarily in lie taken round l)y St. Paul and Chicago, and it will continue t.) 1)0 !^o taken i:ntil our througli rai! line is built. 'Ihe Sault Branch, when it is built in connection with the Northern Pacific, will also be a competitoi-, and 1 have no tloubt that line will be bailt, and Imilt s])ortly. The Canaditui iiiLorests con- cerned in it will see that it is built, pei* ha])s before the all-rail Canadian liae. But T cannot undcrsfaud any Canadian being satisfied to ar>oe]it the Sanit line in li(Mi of an nil-iail line through Canadian territory. Uon. I\lr. SCOTT — If w. now, we 'jcX both in that wav. L'ot that The SPEAKER— Phe way to get i>ot;!i i-> !o take the all-vail line now when v.i\ have an opj)ortunity of getting it; tln^ Sault connection will come, and ]>rob- ably be open for tratlic before the other. l!nt if we have tin,' Sault line first we shall have interests opposed to our na- tional line. I repeat 1 cannot under- stand how any Canadian desiring tht; welfare of the country, the developn-ent of its trade and the enrichment of its people can accept the Sault line — the foreign line in lieu of the Canadian lin<^. i Ion. gentlenuMi are, no doul)t, aware ihat til!; Sault line, or rather the extension of ;he Northern Pacific llailway, from Dn- Intli towards the Straits of Mackinaw, is not for the ptn-pose of connecting with the Canadian line at the Sault, but to connect witli the Michigan railways, and through them reach Detroit. Tlie dis- tance fi'om Winnipeg to Detroit is ex- actly the same l)oth by Duluth and the Straits of Mackinaw and by St. Paul and (Chicago. Frojn this extension of the Northern Pacific a branch will be (Iropped down to the Sault. Hon. gen- tlemen will see that it would be in the intc)-est of that Coni[iany to prevent tl>e tratfic leaving their main line at the Sault for the Canadian railways, and we know what can b(^ done Iiy railway com- panies to ]ircvent trafiic that they liavo on their lines from leaving them. They will take from our line all they can get, and in return give as little as tliey can. The Northern Pacific Company would probably have one rate to Detroit and a higher rate ])er mile to the Sault junc- tion. Our Sault line Avill have to com- pete with the main Northern Pacific line and its extensions, and compete under disadvantageous conditions. Besides, it will have to compete with the water dur- ing the summer. If we were to be con- tent with the Sault line a large ]iortion of onr trflfiic would be diverted from the Canadian line, at Winnipeg, to tho L''"nited States lines, and wlien it reached the Sault junction we wotdd have to comnete and strucrgle for a share of it to J. _ 1.- O firing back to Canada, aiul we could at. best onlv succeed in getting back a small shar?. Yet, some hon. gentlemen are asking that it should lie accepted in lieu of an all-rail line through our own country. I may say that 1 admire the coui'am' o[ gentlemen who stood before an andience of Montreal maiuifacturei-s and merchatits to urge tliem to use their inliuence to have the Sault br.meh of the Northern P.icilic Bail way acceiited in- st(>ad of an all-rail route to the North- West. 1 ;;i'mire their courage, bnt their cou^-ag" only, in asking the Montreal merchants to foi-ego the advantages — I may say lie monopoly of a most jiromis- ing trade -- and to see it diverted fron\ themselves to enrich the me''chi'.nts, rn'lways a!i 1 cities of the United States. \. I)elieve, hon. gentlemen, that the build- ii\g of the Canadian all-)'ail line will s.( lu-fi the Norlh-West trade to (.Canada. 1 lielieve that without that line tin; trade will be lost to the Dominion. I owe an apology for occti|)ying th^ tinu^ of hon. gentlemenat such length, liut tiie suliject is one of such absorliing interest to my- self that I may not have proper con- sideration for others. I have been ac cnsed, by some of the ])re.ss, of incoii sistency for not opposing the giving of the contract to this Syndicate. I am not ojien to the charge of inccvnsistency in this matter. In 1873 I was oppo.sed to giving onr subsidies and om- railwav \ )i'Ovont tl>e iiuG lit tho Ly«, 'And we ilway com- tliey liave cin. Tlioy ey can get, ,s they can. my would !tvoit and iJ. H.iult junc- e to corn- Pacific lino pete under BesideB, it water dur- J to 1)0 con- go ]iovtion Brted from ipeg, to tho . it reached Id have to ire of it to I'o could ar, lack a small ;lemen ore )ted in lieu our own admire the ood befort^ iiufacturers .0 use their jich of the :ceiited in- H^ North - 11 age, but e f.iontroal it ages — I st ])roniiH- ted from ne'cluuits. ted States, the build- Hue will to (Janada. .1 tite trado 1 ow(! un le of lion. lie sul>ject 'st to 1113^- oper con- ' been ac oF iucou ".riving of 1 am CMisistency opposed railwav 11 to a oouipanv that liatl arnm^oJ to I'lvo seveuteeu-twentieths of il to the pro- moters of the Noi'thern Pacitic Ivailwiiy, who were and are our chief livals. If I were to support the second Syndicate, s:ometimes called tho ])olitical Syndicate, i would be open to the charge of incon- sistency, because their ally, their only ally, v.ould b(^ the Northern Paeitle Kailway, and the natural coiirs(> of their business would be 10 transfer the trade of the NortliWest to that railway tUirintj the summer months when the line to Tiuinder i'ay would bo open. 1 When once transferred to the Northern Pacific Railway it would belost toCanada. 1 No rival, hostile interest, such as the Nortlusrn Pacific was in lS7o, is vepre- sented in tho Syndicate. Their interest will be bound uj) in the (,'anadian Pa<;i}lc Kailway, uiid in Icecjiing the trade of the country within Canada. 1 shall not say much about tlu; second Svndicate or ;d)Out their sincerity ; if th.ey sent iu au dller, believing that they would Vie awarded the contract, they must be very sanguine men, because their tender could not be considered until after the ])resent (lovernment had been defeated and over- turned. TJiat was ])erfectly manifest. No one knows better than the e\-Secre- Uiry of State that if the acts of Ministers, who are the servants of Parliament, are •cpudiated by Parliament, the Ministers, like other .servants, v.dio.se acts are dis- approved of by their masters, nnist make way — must resign — so that liefore ilie second Syndicate could have obtained t!io contract tho ]nes<>nt (Jovernment luust have been overturned and the g(.'iitleme'i of tho (^pi)osition suei'eed«>d to their pL.ces. Hon. I\lr. SCOTT — 01) '. no, not at all. t( The SPKAKEIl — If Ml- second Syndicate entered into au airapge- iiieut with those gentlemen the very first act would be to -irop from tlu; contract tlu* western section of the rail- way, and with it to dr-o[) a province from the .Dominion. That would have been the ii.evitable result. The second act would be to drop GoO miles of the eastern section, and with it to drop two-tliirds of the trado of the North-West out of the volume of Canadian trade. Fl, is ywi^f'^ aLCaiiist tln^ Svndicati^ (hat some of its mombers are interested iu tlu^ St. Paul and ]\lanitol)a llailway. L tlo not se(f why that sboidd be an objeetion. Dur- ing the winter months, until the Cana dian Pacilic is completed, an measured by the number of miles of railway which they own. and the interests of the Syndi- cate stand thus : — Tho distance from Winnipeg to (ilynden, which is tlu; junc- tion of tho St. I'aul hallway with the XorUiern FaciUc, is 22n niii(.'>. Winnipeg to iSt. Paul 450 Winnipeg to rriucc Arthur^ Landing ino '■ Winnipeg to Nipissing (Cal- luiidev Station) l,(i,So •• So that when the road is finishixl to Princi; Arthui-'s Landing the Syndicate's interest will be as 130 is toL'20--that is, they will be interested iu 430 miles to Prince Arthur's Landing as against 220 miles to Glyndon and 450 to St. Paul. When the eastern section is completed their interest will be as 1,080 is to 220. Between Callander Station ae.d St. J';uil their interest will be as be- twce'i ],0.S0 aiui42l. I Hon. Mr. SCOTT— I'nlil the eastern ! section is built the true way to compare ! the distance will b(^ from Wimiijieg to j St. Paul and from Winuiiieg to Thunder iPay. The SPEAKER — I. have (h>ne that. ; WluMi the road is opened to Nipissini,' i their interest will be as 1,080 i miles are to 220 to tJlyudon, iu one ease, and 424 in the other case to St. Paul. It is gratifying to find that the j distance is iu favor of the Canadian . route, whether you takt; it by all-rail, or , ]>;irtly rail and jiartly water. The dis- tance from \Vinni[)eg to Montreal, all- ! rail, is 1,432 miles; the distance via : 'i'huuder iiay andtl-3 Sault is 1,2G2. 1 [on. Mr. SCOTT — That is the .short- est route. / / 12 Tlift SPEAKEK — Yes— the shortest. So that the C'antuli.ai ivli-niil route will be 218 iniles shortei- than any other, and the rail and water route is 150 iniles shorter than that v!(0 Duluth. In my ojiinion the contract is a fair cne to both parties. If the Syndi- cate push their work energetically, if money remains clieaj) and immigration large, they o ight to make a \'ery good thing of it, and if thev do Canada will also be benefited. If the Syndicate fuliil their contract, as I be- lieve they will, they will render incalcu- lable Ijenelit to Canada as well as to themselves. The undertaking, so far as the Doniinion is concerned, even with this modiiiedmoney subsidy,is aheavyone,bnt not so heavy as it would have appeared three years ago, for the credit of the country has improved since then. As evidence of this, I may mention that in 1870 a thirty years' loan was negotiated nominally at 4 per cent., but as this loan netted only 87^ cents in the dollar, the rate of interest instead of being only 4 per cent, is actually 4.79 ])er cent. The latest (J notation of our 4 per cent, secu- rities is 104^ to lOoi. I think, there- fore, vv-o may fairly assume if we desii-cd to iieeotiate a loan how we would be able to do it at 102^ — that is 15 per cent, better than the loan ot 187G. The pre- mium on a loan at that i-ate woulil I'educe the rate of in- terest to 3.80 per cent. Now, the difference to Canada would be as fol- lows : — The loan of 1870 was $12,1GG,- 060, for which we received only $10,- 045,833. If it had been negotiated at ])i'esent rates, we woidd have i-eceived for the!i?12,l 06,000, 812,407,833, or .$1,825,- 000 more than we did receive in 1870. The difference in t\\o rate of interest be- tween those twa'* periods is 9 3- 100th of 1 per cent ; and that is sufficient if con- stantly invested at 4 per cent, to pay off the loan in forty-two years. In other words, if yon were to invest 93-1 00th of 1 per cent, on the whole debt of Canada, semi-annually, aiid keep it regularly in- vested at 4 per cent., it would i)ay otl' the debt in forty-tvvo years. Within three years gr^at improvements have taken place in the condition ot had price sta]»lo so has two of has the the country. We have bountiful cro{>s. The lumber, a very important increased very much, and demand for it. The industries of the country have re\'ived enormously. The expor'-s of the year exceed the imports for the first time Hope has taken the ])lace of gloom and despondency, and the country is enjoying a measure of })ros perity such as few of us remember to have seen in former years. No>v, I am not going to take credit to the present Government for all these beneiits ; I am not going to ask for credit for the bounti- ful harvests, or for improvement in the lumber trade ; but I will take credit to the ])resent Government for their })olicy and legislation. It is due to these that so large a proportion of the profits aris- ing from the improved condition of iifairs has remained in Canada and inured to the benefit of our people. 1 believe that firmly and sincerely. I be- lieve if that policy had not been inaugu rai'xl, and if our industries had not been protected by legislation, our ii^'ghbors would have continued to have mauo this country what is called a slaughter mar- ket — they Avould have continued to trample our industries under foot— ami that to-day we would have been less prosperous and less contented than wo were three years ago. If the Pacific Ptailway is proceeded with, as we firmly believe it will be, I look forward to the country enjoying a still greater increase of ])rosperity- — that in a few years lion, gentlemen who are opposed to-day to ratifying this contract, will admit that they were uTiwise to oppose it as they have done, and will congratulate them selves and the country that there was a majority in the legislative halls of the Dominion to carry the measure their wishes and efforts. against \ would ])ay ofF rears. Witliin vemonts have condition ot VG had two ti price of nt staple has id so has till' ustries of the i-nioiisly. The :l the imports las taken the dency, and the isure of })ros I remember td No\v, I am the present )enetlts ; I am for tlie bonnti- ^ement in the take credit to 'or their j)blicy to these that 3 profits aris- condition of Canada and Dur people. 1 icerely. I be- t been inau"u- i had not been our iiv'whboi's lave mauc this laughter inar continued to ier foot — ^aiui ive been less ated than we If the Pacific , as we firmly rward to the eater increase i\v years lion, sed to-day to II admit that se it as they atulate theni- ; there was a e halls of th( asuro against /